Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 187 March 31, 2020
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Fellowship of Friends - Living Presence Discussion 
Well, I can understand that my heavy–handed attempts at humor (#98, previous page) might not resonate with all readers. In fact, upon reflection, this the last one might have missed the mark altogether, so I want to clarify: Yes, Burton really did interpret ‘Covid-19’ to mean that the ‘C’ referred to C-Influence, and that ‘ovid’ referred to the poet Ovid, and that this plague was Ovid’s revenge. Of course, I was not there when he made those claims, but the report came from an extremely reliable source.
So, I do plead guilty to adding certain, shall we say, embellishments, but the basic takeaway remains.
Has anyone come up with an explanation about exactly who Ovid is supposed to be taking his revenge on, re. the Covid-19? One would think that he, being an angel and all that, would have realized that his enemies, especially Augustus Caesar, have long passed on. And unleashing Covid-19 on folks who had nothing to do with his exile, and 99.99999999999999% of whom have no idea that he even ever existed in corporeal form is a bit petty, isn’t it? Not quite what I would expect from an angel who presumably has an idea of what objective knowledge is, and has the capacity to be dispassionate at will. I don’t suppose anyone has dared point this out to Burton directly, but surely the question has arisen somewhere in the flock?
A correspondent with long experience of Fellowship groupthink kindly sent me a possible answer. “…Ames mentions that Ovid should have gotten over his banishment by now, after some 1900 years. 1900 years only has meaning for us time–-bound mortals. For Ovid, it happened just yesterday, or last hour, or just now. So, I can see why he’s so angry about it. It just happened, or is happening now. He’ll never get over it.”
1. amesgilbert1
It looks like Ovid (and maybe Virgil and Horace, too) is also taking revenge on Burton and the Fellowship. The latest news is that a FF member & OH resident tested positive; female; quite involved with working with meetings and other events; close to many people who are/were close to Burton. Other OH residents/FF members are showing symptoms. Remember, Burton stopped live meetings, and closed Apollo D’Oro, only 12 days ago.
Are people really apologizing to one person who is uncomfortable with a ironic quasi-humorous post. Fuck that shit. “That’s why i don’t participate”. Who the fuck cares.
Insider:
Glad to hear the the cult is taking “life” rules seriously. It is a sign the cult may be moving slightly away from their delusional belief system that followers in their bubble are somehow exempt or protected by disembodied spirit beings and toward a fact-based reality, given the median age of followers these days.
Reminds me of the social distancing I had to do from burton on my way out. It begs the question: if burton and his followers truly believe that paradise awaits them in the afterlife…why bother?
Stay safe.
Hi All,
Chill, I had a bad day. Could have deleted but seems better to leave post. Stay healthy and thanks for your insights.
Less of the distracting chit–chat, and on, on, on with the really important news coming out of Oregon House, California.
Yes, apparently they are ‘sorta’ isolating the God–Emperor™. He is conducting twice–a–day ‘meetings’ seven days a week with a video camera, accompanied only by Dorian (Prompter–in–Chief®) and Sasha (Teacup–Holder–in–Chief®).
A veritable torrent of Amazing Insights™, uninterrupted by pesky questions. How fortunate the flock!
Rumor has it that ‘recommended donations’ are $5 to $10 each session. One assumes that the Angelic Thought Police, ably assisted here on earth by the likes of Linda Kaplan, Kevin Brown, and Nicolas Walker, have worked out a way to ensure remote and verifiable attendance by the laity. If that is beyond their capabilities, then maybe The Absolute™ will appear again to lend a hand.
I have no idea why Burton is being so wary, after all, he is the source of a previous Amazing Insight™ that informed us that angels like him cannot get diseases, and thus it follows that those he has sex with cannot get diseases from him. Actual facts on the ground proving otherwise notwithstanding. Can it be that he does not believe his own BS?
It is hard to imagine him going cold turkey on his protein treats, after 50+ years of brobdingnagian appetites and limitless self–indulgence. Not to mention, there are so many antique clocks and chandeliers around the world he does not yet own. Can’t start a New Civilization© without ’em, yet where is he going to find the money to purchase them all, since the word ‘enough’ is not in his mentation? Maybe he can apply to Trump for a bailout; after all, the rest of the 1% have got their $$, and there are trillions more wherever they came from!
Tim, over at the Robert Earl Burton blog (link at top right of this page), has mined the ideal quote from Burton’s book to illustrate both his priorities and those of an average long–term follower, and I repeat Burton’s own words here:
Robert Earl Burton, Fifty Years with Angels.
6. amesgilbert1
I have no idea why Burton is being so wary, after all, he is the source of a previous Amazing Insight™ that informed us that angels like him cannot get diseases, and thus it follows that those he has sex with cannot get diseases from him. Actual facts on the ground proving otherwise notwithstanding.
Since he told his entourage many times that he has unprotected sex because he uses a “celestial condom” may be he is now wearing a “celestial mask.”
Can it be that he does not believe his own BS?
Of course not. Come on.
cult survivor:
Wait, what? “Celestial condom”???
You can’t be serious. You’re joking, right? That’s a good one!! I couldn’t have made that up myself!
I for one think WhaleRider’s comic stylings are spot on.
Of course Burton (the supreme egotist) does pose a problem for satirists, because he is so unaware of how shallow and self congratulatory he sounds to anyone not under the spell, that satire sounds very like strict reportage.
🙂
8. WhaleRider
I’m not making that up — two close friends of mine that were part of Burton’s entourage told me that. Sad but true.
Sea of Love: Brian Flynn’s transforming journey to Egypt (film trailer)
“At first, and during two years of ‘close’ and ‘groomed’ friendship, I was absolutely unaware of Brian’s connections with The Fellowship of Friends, and that he is an avid recruiter for the cult.”
From Tim’s site:
https://robertearlburton.blogspot.com/2013/08/lies-deceit-control-outsiders_19.html
11. Wouldnt You Like To Know
I know Brian Flynn very well from my time in the FOF (I even have one of his paintings stored somewhere in my garage — he is a mediocre painter at best) and I can assure you that the aim of the “affair” (he is openly gay) he had with the woman that posted a lot of negative stuff here and the new “film” about him is not to attract members to the FOF (as some people here that don’t know him think) — it’s all a huge ego trip.
Just watch the “trailer” and see it’s all about him, not the FOF or “awakening.”
14. Cult Survivor
Is it possible that Brian’s Sufi act and mystic shtick is nothing more than a front to sell his paintings to naive “spiritual seekers?”
(Btw, Brian’s outdoor lectures surrounded by these admirers reminds me a lot of similar scenes featuring Asaf.)
And what about his original backers? Do you know if they are still in the picture? I’m thinking of Lynne from London (with the restaurant) who, purportedly, bought the house Brian lives in on the West Bank; Alisanne F; and Edith M. They were all involved in the Tracey Ash episode linked to in post #12 above.
14. Insider
Is it possible that Brian’s Sufi act and mystic shtick is nothing more than a front to sell his paintings to naive “spiritual seekers?”
Nobody buys Brian’s paintings — they are mediocre at best as I said before. The aim of the Sufi act is for him to get his ego massage.
Btw, Brian’s outdoor lectures surrounded by these admirers reminds me a lot of similar scenes featuring Asaf.
You are spot on — Brian and Asaf are both by-products of the FOF and are basically Burton’s copycats.
And what about his original backers? Do you know if they are still in the picture? I’m thinking of Lynne from London (with the restaurant) who, purportedly, bought the house Brian lives in on the West Bank; Alisanne F; and Edith M. They were all involved in the Tracey Ash episode linked to in post #12 above.
We all know that the FOF generates a huge amount of vanity in its members (we are so refined, we are the chosen ones, the FOF is the only conscious school on Earth, etc.) and that produces small groups of “friends” like the one above (artistic Brian, merchant Alisanne, entrepreneur Edith and restaurateur Lynne) that stick together to feed each other’s vanity. Tracey Ash got caught in this web of vanity — also because of her vanity — and got mad when Brian ditched her. Her theory that they were all plotting to get her into the FOF is pure imagination. She was used and discarded, not by the FOF but by Brian & Co.
#11 Listening to Brian Flynn speak is listening to intentional insincerity in action, I feel sorry for those he is entangling out there in Egypt.
And some of those paintings are truly vile.
MEMORANDUM
From: Higher Forces
To: Robert E Burton
Date: Eternal Present
Re: The Apocalypse
What the HELL is wrong with you?
We have been sending you messages for YEARS about the apocalypse that is currently in progress, that is now knocking on your door, and time and time again you have consistently ignored us, preferring to divide your attention elsewhere, in license plates, street signs, and in the pants of OUR young male followers.
We’ve been openly BROADCASTING to you about this apocalypse, given many historical previews, with locusts, Black Death, Spanish Flu, sent Typhoid Mary, yellow fever, malaria, MERS, SARS, Ebola…we’ve even provided the esteemed Dr Fauci with all the intelligence, insight, data and tools necessary to ACCURATELY predict that this apocalypse was in the pipeline years in advance, writing books about it…and still you didn’t get the message.
We had it written right there in the Bible…remember? “It is least among you who is the greatest”…? It was never about acting like a child as you seem to do, we were referring to our holy coronavirus, you fool. It’s the small things that get you into heaven, not camels or big gaudy lawn sculptures, that’s what we meant. We want you to act like adults, take responsibility for yourselves, and wash your hands, not your feet!
It was never our intention to destroy our lovely creation, Earth, with earthquakes or hydrogen warfare you IDIOT, that’s no way to raise consciousness in humanity! It has to be done slowly, people have to see it coming, otherwise it’s too great a shock and humans start killing each other.
Just look how humans are now learning to be present to their surroundings, kind to each other, and appreciate what’s right in front of them…nature, their families, not their bellybuttons! That’s paradise!!! New Ferragamos just keeps OUR followers admiring their feet, you twit.
And now, unbelievably, instead of gathering OUR flock of faithful followers at Apollo to shelter THEM from this storm, to nurture THEM with all the art we’ve been collecting for THEM…a flock that, by the way, we have managed hold together for DECADES while you engage in your personal agenda of reverse conversion therapy…virtually exhausting our supply of celestial condoms…now you have the supreme AUDACITY to close OUR sacred grounds of Apollo to those who have supported you for all these years? That is unconscionable! Not that you had a conscience anyway.
We even orchestrated the election of Donald Jackass Trump, which wasn’t easy either, to blatantly illustrate the folly of your ENORMOUS HUBRIS every time he opens his mouth, and yet, you stubbornly cling to your magical thinking, ideas of reference, selfishness and greed, you fucking jerk!!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!
Since humanity is attaining higher degrees of self awareness and compassion without you, despite your grandiosity…and as a result your MONUMENTAL FAILURE to heed our warnings and share the enlightenment we TEMPORARILY granted you on behalf of OUR followers, you leave us no choice.
We hereby notify you that we are officially revoking your mental status, banishing you to the darkness of dementia, and imposing upon you a fine of six lifetimes.
Hopefully OUR followers will see OUR hand in this action and abandon you and your pitiful DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR you have infected them with.
We wish you better luck in your next lifetime as a hamster, and this time, stay away from Richard Gere!
Thank you, WhaleRider.
It’s time for everyone to wake up from a long, pleasant, seemingly-real, dream. A dream dreamed up by Robert Earl Burton, reflecting all that he lacked and so desperately wanted his whole life leading up to the Fellowship. Respect, recognition, love, power, wealth, admiration, uniqueness. A dream reinforced by daily ritual, like the bells and whistles that accompany most religions. A dream that, as is becoming apparent, was a luxury for spoiled baby-boomers, male prostitutes from Russia and elsewhere, and anyone else who somehow came to the conclusion that they did not have to take responsibility for their own life.
In a very real sense, one of best ways to wake up from Burton’s hypnosis and mind control is to watch his act remotely, rather than in person. That’s what everyone is doing now. Then, without the distraction of all the “higher hydrogen impressions” and happy, smiling “conscious” students, it is much easier to see the Burton act for what it is. The tedious and “pious” entrance and exit. The equally tedious “conscious” movements and well-rehearsed facial expressions. The scattered, random thoughts. The inaccurate information. The mis-pronunciations. The inability to be still and quiet for even a few seconds. The constant “buffering.” The endless, addictive flattering of the flock, giving them their daily fix.
Once awakened from the Burton dream sequence, will anyone want or be able to go back to sleep?
What the queen Robert Earl Burton all his life wanted was to suck straight cock and be worshiped by the morons who he attracted like flies on shit. And we gave it to him.
19. brucelevy
We didn’t give it to him, he took it from us. We are lucky that all he wanted was sex, money and adoration and not our lives, like many other leaders of destructive cults. We are fortunate to be here to tell the story.
19/20.
We believed in Burton’s bullshit: becoming “conscious beings,” going to “Paradise,” being watched over by angels. We believed it, because we wanted to believe it, not because Burton forced us to. Did not our vanity mesh almost perfectly with Burton’s?
20. Cult Survivor
We fucking gave it to him willfully.
20. Cult Survivor
If you want to bullshit yourself be my guest.
How can Burton be a rapist and a sexual predator if people give it to him willfully? I’m confused.
IMHO, it’s easy to blame oneself for involvement in a cult and equally easy to blame burton. Simply put, he’s a “sociopath” and we were “morons”.
But how does that dichotomy further an understanding of why one chooses to voluntarily leave the cult?
A discussion of why one would voluntarily stay in a cult for decades is complicated, involving issues such as social ties, marriage, livelihood, owning property, refugee status, ambition, dependency, social status, and religious beliefs.
After all, as we were told, nobody was holding a gun to our heads to stay, yet we were certainly made to believe that leaving the cult was like pulling the trigger.
I can honestly say that I didn’t “buy into” the “we are better than them”, nor the “surviving the coming apocalypse” paradigms constantly spewing from burton’s mouth; those mental constructs appeared to me at the time as burton’s way of creating a boundary in which to define and hold the group together, driven by a sense of urgency, and pushing us to “work” beyond our limits.
However, I did buy into to the idea, hammered into me from reading the 4th way books, that in order to “evolve” one had to find a group and learn from others whom had been in “the work” longer than I had.
Coupled with a crisis of identity as a young man, my parents divorce, no viable job prospects, and a sense of alienation from my peers, I was a ripe candidate.
And so, I started climbing “the ladder” to the top.
Now those still in the cult would like to point out that my “chief feature” was “vanity”, and we were indoctrinated to believe it is usually one’s “chief feature” that causes one to leave.
These many years later, after studying the concept of narcissism, I have come to understand that the idea of “vanity” and chief features in general were weaponized and leveraged against our better judgement; one wore the label like a scarlet letter. This also enabled followers to easily shun and ostracize those who leave without giving it a second thought.
From my current perspective I can see that narcissism exists along a spectrum, ranging from healthy to pathological and by the same token so does the “chief feature” of “non-existence” or accommodation. What I consider healthy is a balance of the two: selfish and selfless.
What I finally learned at the top of that ladder is that in order to be in burton’s close orbit, I had to become completely selfless in order to accommodate his pathological selfishness, and under the guise of working on my “vanity” I was expected to compromise my personal dignity, allowing myself to be emotionally and sexually exploited and abused.
It was a soul crushing experience, to say the least, and I would not wish that upon anyone. That’s why I left. Some may call it “vanity”; I call it a healthy self respect.
I can also readily understand why Flynn, Braverman and characters such as them would swing wildly from the years of pathological accommodation they endured in burton’s orbit to the pathological narcissism of becoming a cult leader themselves.
We called it “the swing of the pendulum”, an idea that still resonates with me, and as in physics: the greater the mass, the further the swing. This is also evident in mood swings in some mental disorders: the greater the trauma…the wider the swing.
My hope is that the rest of us who leave settle for something in between.
The above posts nos.18 – 25 comprise together an excellent discussion for current young, male Fellatioship of Friends members to ponder – should they happen upon them…
25. WhaleRider
IMHO, it’s easy to blame oneself for involvement in a cult and equally easy to blame burton. Simply put, he’s a “sociopath” and we were “morons”.
In my opinion Burton is a narcissistic sociopath. I also believe he has satyriasis (sex addiction) and pathological OCD (thus his obsession with the number 44, license plates, the “sequence”, predictions, palm trees, camels, etc.). That being said, I don’t think we are “morons” — we are victims.
A discussion of why one would voluntarily stay in a cult for decades is complicated, involving issues such as social ties, marriage, livelihood, owning property, refugee status, ambition, dependency, social status, and religious beliefs.
Exactly.
It was a soul crushing experience, to say the least, and I would not wish that upon anyone. That’s why I left. Some may call it “vanity”; I call it a healthy self respect.
May be both?
Cult Survivor:
If you can think of this issue in terms of narcissism, I’m happy to discuss this further, otherwise you may be falling into the mental trap I mentioned above about assigning a scarlet letter.
IMO, like I said, healthy self-respect falls somewhere in the middle of two poles: pathological narcissism and pathological accommodation.
In practice the pathological narcissist surrounds himself or herself with people willing to accommodate the narcissist to the same degree…the more pathological the narcissist, the more pathological the accommodation required. One cannot survive without the other; in that regard they are both co-dependent.
In my mind, “vanity” as you call it, and as depicted in the myth, is skewed toward the pathological side of narcissism, which ultimately causes the narcissist to remain stuck, and therefore drown in their own image.
Was it vain for me to act on my own behalf, abandon my social contacts, accept a huge shift in my perceived social status within the group, be shunned, and have to fend for myself? I don’t believe so. The act of leaving for me was quite humbling…and a huge relief. Did I go out and start my own cult? No, I did not. For that matter, staying would have been more “vain”, for after all, I was one of his boys and got special treatment.
We were taught to believe in the cult that acting in ones own interest is synonymous with “vanity”, because if such an action was in opposition to burton’s wishes, the main narcissist, then obviously that was to be avoided at all costs. Hence “vanity” was weaponized.
And in that manner we, myself included, were groomed to put his interest above our own, work against our self interest, our “vanity” and accommodate, accommodate, accommodate or leave.
In doing so, that also forces the person doing the pathological accommodation into the role of Echo, Narcissus’ alter ego…and voliá, out pop Braverman and Flynn, echoing burton. The pendulum swings the other way and the accommodator becomes the narcissist in need of adoring accommodators.
Let me point out something about so-called, “chief features” and how that can cause a distortion of reality.
We were lead to believe that burton was of a certain “body type” that carried with it a certain “chief feature”. Did we ever question the fact that his “chief feature” was on full display given the role he assigned himself? No we did not, we accommodated his role as “teacher” by becoming “students” with our own “chief features” to address.
Didn’t he also dress and adorn himself in such a flamboyant manner that one might also perceive him as being vain?
Yet nobody, at least in my experience, would have ever dared to consider his “chief feature” was “vanity”, a hallmark of pathological narcissism.
It seems to me that the epitome of vanity would be to claim one was a god (or goddess) in human form, right?
But the scarlet letter of “chief feature” vis a vis body type and his self assigned role of “teacher” coupled with our role as underling “student” enabled burton to be vain to a sickening degree without any scrutiny whatsoever, until this blog, that is.
Let me also address your other question, did he take from us or did we give to him? Is he a predator or are we just morons? Both are true. When we accept the ‘frame’ of “student” we unconsciously allow him as “teacher” to take what he wants, and we willingly give, otherwise we violate the role we are playing. That’s how the sociopathic clergy predator-victim paradigm works.
Does the deer frightened in the headlights want to be run over? Why didn’t they get out of the way? They saw me coming. Maybe they wanted to get run over? It’s a useless line of questioning, IMO. I was scared shitless.
24. Cult Survivor
In hind site, and in reality we could have said no. I know there were other implications with that option, but it was there, and quite a few people said no.
28. WhaleRider
When I was preparing to leave the fof, in my mind I divided those who were sexually exploited into two categories. Morons and whores. I considered myself a moron. I took very few “things” and bribes from Robert. Not many trips, never out of the country. I knew several people who complained about being exploited quietly. I asked why don’t you just leave or say no. They said “I like the gifts, the trips, the food, the attention, I like driving the Mercedes etc.”. So they allowed it go on for quite a long time for some of them. Guess which category they were in.. My bad experiences with RB actually only comprised a few episodes and then I just stayed the fuck away from him even though he continually tried to get me to move back to the “Boy Cottage”. And yes, it was crushing.
30. brucelevy
When I was preparing to leave the fof, in my mind I divided those who were sexually exploited into two categories. Morons and whores.
I met some people that were part of Burton’s entourage that were both a moron and a whore… Just kidding. I don’t think you were a “moron” (definitively not a “whore”). I think you were a victim.
It’s time that we stop blaming ourselves for joining a cult led by a narcissistic psychopath — I personally feel fortunate for getting out alive and not totally fucked up (only partially lol).
Echo And Narcissus, John William Waterhouse:
31. Cult Survivor
I don’t blame myself for joining. I knew what I was after. I read all the books from the time I was eighteen. I thought it was the only show in town at the time. I was just too young and naieve to see early on that this wasn’t it. That it was a diseased organization. Live and learn. Now I know all the “gurus” are full of shit and are, or will become sexual and financial predators. All of them. They take readily available “truths” that have been around for millennia and coat it with their own brand of fluff and bullshit. Then start fucking their members literally and figuratively.
Insider @ #2
Thanks for the news of Covid infection within the FOF. I encourage you and anyone else who knows, to post that information here for the good of the Oregon House, Yuba/Nevada community at large.
The O.H. Fellowship community is a secretive, incestuous cult, run by a delusional predator with a preference for frequent orgiastic homosexual sex with his students. Members are already infected with a shared psychosis, the hallmarks of which include magical thinking and a disregard for, “life people” i.e. anyone not in the cult. They live in a giant Petri dish and as such are all currently, potentially dangerous to humanity at large.
I’m reliably informed of two members currently with Covid and have been told that G—-t has recently tested all of Bob’s human sex toys. It’s a thoroughly sick place with all the potential of becoming an infectious hot spot.
Bruce:
Thanks for sharing some of your story. In my day we were effectively silenced with the “no gossip” exercise. I figured there might be others, but I was too ashamed to talk about it with anyone, so I wasn’t in a position to assess anyone else’s motives.
When I said finally said “no, I had a girlfriend”, he wanted to know who it was, which in retrospect is chilling. Why should that matter? I think he could tell I wasn’t into it, and had I hung around longer, who knows how he would have dealt with my girlfriend to further entrap me.
Now I understand how his predatory behavior worked. He had plenty of other victims in the wings, and I could sense that I was expendable, not so special, and certainly not singled out because of any “advanced level of being”, it was because I accommodated him. That’s when the house of cards began to fall. When I left I was done with gurus.
I think in the early days he was a bit more careful because sometimes gay men get hurt physically when they come on to straight men.
I adopted your “moron” stance for the sake of argument. Speaking for myself, I was both naive and scared, but I don’t consider myself a moron…because I left and so did you. That’s being smart. In a sense I’m glad that I did climb that ladder to the top, learned the truth about how power corrupts and then did not waste any more of my precious time on earth in that cult or any other cult.
187/34 diegoriverassquaretrouserleg – April 6, 2020:
“It’s a thoroughly sick place with all the potential of becoming an infectious hot spot.”
For decades, The Fellowship of Friends campus in Oregon House (which includes all of its members living there, numbering in the 100’s), and Robert Earl Burton, in particular, has been known in the Yuba County public health universe as a vector for sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).
36. Associated Press
Do you mean that the “celestial condom” doesn’t work? Then Influence C wants FoF members to get STDs to raise their level of being.
Remember that Burton said that Influence C writes every single word on this blog, so my words are coming straight from the 44 (81) angels in Paradise.
“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 11:15)
Associated Press:
Hey, thanks for the Waterhouse visual depicting the Narcissus myth.
It’s a good reminder that the myth actually conveys a dyad, yet we tend to focus only on immature Narcissus and the mirrored image of himself….in our case burton…and neglect to consider the equally self-destructive fate of Echo, his selfless “nonexistent” counterpart…or burton’s followers.
She ends up wasting away due to her unrequited love of someone so in love with his own self image. The more she is spurned by him, the more in love with him she falls.
I think that is an apt metaphor for the psychological trap burton sets for his selfless, accommodating followers…the more out of reach he claims to be, a man number 8 or whatever, the more his infatuated followers want to follow in his footsteps.
Whalerider, this one’s for you:
Ton:
Can’t thank you enough for that, it was right up my alley. You got me pegged.
Some key points…“How to experience the divine in a dream.” I think they got there, it’s all divine.
Brilliant statement…“The lucid dream is the optimal platform for studying the mind.”
“Developing a sustained awareness,” and a “divided attention” in a dream. We certainly all have the foundation for that!!
For me, the value of realizing the elements of a dream are all me, even though these elements seem foreign, sometimes hostile, sometime loving, sometimes infantile, sometimes wise, instead of fleeing from these elements, but to greet them in a dream…embrace them even…have taught me to “own” my projections and view others as equals. As the one presenter said, “When I view the world through the eyes of wisdom, I see that I am nothing. When I view the world through the eyes of compassion, I am everything.” I couldn’t agree more. That’s the benefit of paying attention and waking up in a dream.
In other words, to live in harmony with both elements of the narcissus/echo dyad…the lover of the self AND the lover of the other. That’s non duality to me.
From the perspective of a cult survivor, I found it revealing that the woman, Fariba, who through the faith of her up bringing claimed she had no internalized “image” of god, and through her search for the divine claimed to began dreaming about a particular eastern guru, in fact, a male contra-sexual figure, and told her story implying he somehow had entered her mind from the ether. At least that’s the impression I got.
She recounted how she had been “searching for the divine” in herself through lucid dreaming. Then she happened to meet the guru, who approached her and said he thought they had met before. Sounds just like a pick-up line. When she told him that she “had been dreaming about him for years…” Right on cue the guru said, “that’s where I met you”.
Bingo, and as a result, the guru, instead of enlightening her to the notion that she might actually have her own inner guru, in the intense moment of that encounter, created a follower who stayed with him for 10 years. IMO, probably not unlike Bonita and burton’s first interaction. I suspect the guru sensed something in the woman, an easy mark.
Though I quite enjoyed her closing remarks… “All the practice we do to become lucid in a dream pertains to this state of consciousness.”
Spot on. Thanks again.
WR,
yup you caught the part about ‘dividing attention’ at about the 40 minute mark – something ex ‘students’ here might relate to.
No doubt there’s some magical thinking’ going on which you identify… one can speculate about the motives of her adopted guru when he goes along with her version of having previously met in a dream… as you correctly imply, the perspective of a cult survivor will color speculation in any case.
I agree with your remarks about finding the ‘inner guru’ – I think a true ‘guru’ as spiritual guide would point the ‘chela’ in an inward direction anyway… as to the nature of her relationship with the “dream guru” whom she claims to have later met in the flesh… my impression from her short talk here is that Fariba appears to be self-aware enough to realize that it’s projection on her part… and to own it as such (?) this is of course speculation on my part.
I picture individual consciousness floating on a sea of the unconscious wherein ‘magic’ swims. As consciousness dims with sleep, dreaming represents a dive into streams of the unconscious revealing the magic that lives there. Bringing dreams to the light of day for examination may involve something like “magical thinking” because it’s a process that splashes around at the edges of the sea… after all, to some extent and in a way all thinking is ‘magical’ as some / many thoughts and wishes do actually influence and precede the course of events in the physical world.
#39 I enjoyed the contributions by Stephen Laberge, but I found the others a bit wooly. Especially when the Buddhist went from noting that in a lucid dream all the other characters are products of our own minds, to claiming that was what is happening in our waking life, that we are all one consciousness. As I see it, the amazing thing is that in the material world there are other independent consciousnesses and we are able to interact with them. The dream world is wonderful, but lacks the element of other beings.
John Harmer:
I agree, the two were “wooly”, and in fact, our very survival depends upon diversity in the world.
Your post reminded me of the movie, “Being John Malkovich”. Without adequate ego boundaries and an appreciation for the consciousness of others-separate from our own, it would be a insane world indeed…or one giant cult.
IMO, the point of lucid dreaming is that it is a safer, more immediate platform for each individual to study their own mind, for, as they mentioned, everything you experience in a dream is a product of your own mind, (despite the illusion some might have that a ”guru“ might actually visit you there)…as opposed to the study of your own mind through the lens of someone else’s mind, whom might very well have an agenda, as in the case of burton’s holier than thou personality cult and rape factory.
IMO, how an individual relates to the people or elements appearing in a dream, reflects how an individual relates to others in the material world. It’s an elegant model for living, without the need to split the psyche into “good or bad” parts.
That’s what my dream last night informed me. I dreamt I survived a plane crash, came down to earth, so to speak. Rather than be frightened, I just trusted, and after deplaning wanted to take pictures to show my kids…I survived the crash. The part of me piloting my airplane landed us-safely in the woods. People showed up to help and there was even a restaurant right across the street. Nobody was harmed in the plane or on the ground except for a few trees…which could be replanted.
The Buddhist you mentioned in the above discussion, IMO, in recounting his dream about informing others (in his dream) that they were “in a dream” was also very telling from my perspective as a cult survivor.
Didn’t he try to convey to the audience toward the end of the discussion that “reality is one big dream”? And from the Buddhist perspective, don’t worry, if you don’t “get it” in this lifetime, you might in the next.
I mean, after all, he studied with the frickin’ Dalai Lama, right, the holiest guy on the planet, on his hundredth lifetime. We should all sit up and listen.
Remember the dude was coming from the perspective of being in a hierarchical, spiritual group for 20 YEARS, and, IMO, his dream had the flavor of being on a mission to recruit others at ground level, (ok, similar to what I’m doing about lucid dreaming, only anonymously, no cult membership required) yet in his dream he saw there were parts of himself that didn’t really care, that were really only concerned about themselves and whatever they were doing in that moment, right?
Then, IMO, he projected that part of himself out onto others when he did the bit about eating hamburgers. Hold on a sec. Where did that come from? If he hung with the Dalai Lama, you can bet the farm he was a vegetarian, too.
In that moment he pivoted to the ”poor souls out there” we might recognize as ourselves, living our little, self-absorbed lives eating hamburgers. That’s what 20 years in a cult will do for you!
So what was his dream showing him about himself? (And mind you, it’s for him to discover for himself, I would never be this direct with my opinion face to face.)
Was it go forth, convince others who might just pay attention to put down their hamburgers, get a guru, and become Buddhists like him? That’s what it felt like to me with all the guru name dropping he did. (This is what my dreams do for me-they are self-validating, self-empowering, no name dropping, no yoga needed.)
Could his message have been the “echo” of someone else he was promoting? Someone else immersed in a spiritual hierarchy whom he had accommodated for two decades of his life? Follow me, as I have followed this other guy? I’m so glad he didn’t have the last word in the discussion; it sure seemed to be headed that way!
IMO, from the perspective of a cult survivor, and what I gleaned here on this blog, I don’t remember from whom, I think it was ton, is that the individual pursuit of a personal mystical connection with a “god“ or “absolute” existing out there in the ether, or to join a group to be (or act) like the Buddha is ultimately narcissistic (the ego is still present), rife with pitfalls (projection), and can cause depersonalization (detachment) that separates us from the “other”…i.e., there are the “enlightened” and then there are those whom are not, some with deep pockets. You might recall the demonic imagery so prevalent in Buddhist art and Lamas floating in mid-air, for example.
So although the Buddhist seem to have a certain “air” about him, to me he appeared to be on the same plane as the rest of us, and there was no way I will ever be seduced by that act again.
Sure we should have compassion for others and be more inclusive….AND toward ourselves, too.
What the elements in the Buddhist’s dream were revealing about himself, IMO, is that really it was his observing ego he was serving by trying to convince others who would not listen, and that practicing “detachment” from the shadow elements in his dream only fed his ego so he could protect his ego in recounting his dream by projecting those self-centered, hamburger-eating, narcissistic elements of himself that he didn’t want to see out onto the hamburger-eating public, and then go forth feeling justified in telling everyone else in the world ”it’s all just a big dream” because, remember, he spend 20 years “studying” with the Dalai Lama and others with names difficult to pronounce.
IMO, that seemed like an indirect attempt to recruit those whom might feel guilty about having a self-centered part of themselves, to selflessly follow in his footsteps, and go find a self-centered, self-proclaimed enlightened guru…because it’s too far a leap for some to accept that the guru already exists within. How is that “enlightening” others?
Well I hope the fuck the dude is practicing social distancing in the ashram and wearing a mask in public, because this pandemic is certainly not a dream.
What this viral, “invisible enemy” within is teaching us, IMHO, is we all in this together…as equals.
Thus, I wear a mask not to protect myself, but to protect the other, and I really appreciate when others do the same for me.
#43 I like your analysis WhaleRider. I know you use dreams as a way to understand yourself better. I sometimes reflect on mine, but if I become lucid (only rarely for me) I generally can’t resist flying (which noone else in the dream is the least impressed by).
Whalerider you do a good job of dissecting the dream in the video clip – from a cult survivor’s point of view. My take was admittedly more superficial, I just let the info wash over me without the analysis you provide here, thanks for that!
My 2 cents: listening to the lucid dreaming video I didn’t get the impression that the panelists had a hidden agenda of attempting to recruit followers to any cult. Yes all the lineage name dropping by “the buddhist” was a bit much but I heard the general discussion as a presentation of interesting insights into dreamwork by a panel of people who are obviously very bright, with talented larynxes – lending to the ease with names difficult to pronounce as well as good public speaking skills in general. I took the biographical info the speakers present as a personal introduction giving some insight into the background which inform their points of view regarding dreams and the nature of an intersection of “reality” and human perception… the impression I had was that they have a lot of experience with dreamwork and dare I say even expertise in the otherwise “woolly” world of dreams…. I’ll have to give another listen sometime during the sequestration… be safe all, in this time of the plague.
Ton:
What I enjoyed most about the discussion was adopting a scientific approach and how lucid dreaming might contribute to personal growth and self-empowerment.
What raises red flags for me is when dreams are approached from a religious-spiritualist point of view, especially when it involves reincarnation and years of study with gurus, instead of from a purely psychological perspective. IMO, one does not need to be a disciple of anyone else to benefit from one’s dreams, as I’m sure you agree.
Thankfully, “teachers” and research scientists in an academic setting, although flawed human beings like the rest of us, operate under a system of checks and balances, and base their knowledge upon verifiable evidence, whereas gurus do not; they mainly rest upon “tradition”.
So to equate them in a discussion like that risks placing the scientific method on the same level with spiritual dogma. I’m all for phenomenology, as long as there is no spiritualist, guru-follower hierarchy operating in the background.
We are talking about a realm that is highly personal and subjective, and rightfully so, but because of the non-linear, illogical, irrational nature of dreaming that largely occurs laden with affect, it’s hard to make ‘sense’ of dreams and all too easy to adopt someone else’s interpretation, especially when that other person presents themselves as an authority figure, or has the stature of someone like the Dalia Lama or other spiritual “master”. That’s the caveat I strongly feel needs to be added to the discussion, and issue raised by John Harmer.
So I’m really speaking about the general public here, who might have been taking notes for further study, not you nor I as seasoned cult survivors.
I fully expect burton’s followers to dream about him after he passes and use that both as a verification of his “exalted status” and to indoctrinate others.
I’d like to clarify and elaborate, for any newly arrived readers, why I invariably return to the subject of dreams and put it in the context of cult deprogramming, especially from the so-called “4th way”.
In the “work books” and upon joining the FOF an agreement is made that humans are “sleeping machines” and that the ultimate goal is to become “fully awakened”.
And by “fully awakened”, I mean possessing sufficient, sustained consciousness that all ones actions are intentional…AKA, in FOFspeak-acting solely from the “kings of centers”.
And in that “fully awakened” state, as the theory goes, one feels a connection with the “all and everything”, both material and immaterial, is no longer subject to the “law of accident”, and can exert a “super human” control over ones “mechanical functions”. (Feel free to correct me if I’m misinformed.)
So from the very start, the word “sleep” is framed in a context of something to avoid and ranked as the “first state”, the lowest possible and least desirable state of mind one can experience.
Therefore anything that occurs in “sleep” is useless in relation to “higher states” and categorized as “imaginary” or “not real”. (It took years for me to overcome the response I had when at night my partner innocently said, “sweet dreams”.)
So right away the basic need for restful sleep is weaponized against the follower on several levels, for our mental health and immune system depends upon an adequate amount each night.
Although the 4th way makes the further distinction in humans between those whom are “asleep”, those whom are “working on themselves”, those whom are “partially awake” and those whom are “fully awake”, in practice at any given moment, it really boils down to either one is present or one is not.
IMO, this duality of “consciousness” was further amplified by cult membership: either one was a member of the elite group or not…either a “student” or a “life person”.
Various “exercises” like the “word exercise” coupled with the practice of “photographing” among members were administered as “shocks” to reveal one’s “mechanicality” (or habitual nature) to help promote both a state of hyper-vigilance…and self-censorship, as in the case of the “no gossip” exercise.
Periodically the exercises had to be changed since one could eventually learn how to circumvent the exercise, but the question remains whether the obsessive pursuit of “consciousness” is worth the abdication of one’s conscience and agency, or compromise of one’s dignity. For me it was not.
The inevitable failure of conforming to such “exercises”, because of the way our brains are hardwired, was also weaponized against the follower as tacit proof of their lower status in the group’s hierarchy and in relation to burton who placed himself at the pinnacle.
Yet, IMO, being conscious of brushing my teeth does not carry the same weight as making the conscious effort to treat others as equals.
I would wager that no matter how long one practices 4th way concepts, there will always be a way to illustrate how reflexive the habit center functions and how difficult it is to modify or change a habit. And thankfully so, for the habit center also provides us the luxury of joyful free attention.
Herein lies the exquisite value of abandoning the 4th way’s pejorative relationship with having a good night’s rest full of vivid dreams.
I will add that the concept of lucid dreaming, IMO, is not necessarily developing the ability to direct one’s dream, but simply the ability to sustain awareness to what the substrata of one’s mind presents each night in order to spend a few moments reflecting upon what associations one might have to the people or elements in the dream and how that might relate to one’s current circumstance.
The first aspect of having a lucid dream, and in some ways most important in the deprogramming process, is for the dreamer to experience how the observing ego is decidedly not in control, of which there can be no denial.
As a result, dreams can be terrifying to the ego, and at the very least, humbling. (Maybe that’s why they are so readily forgotten or discounted.)
This is important because after many years in a cult like the FOF which splits the psyche into “higher” and “lower” selves, it is highly likely that a fairly robust personality is formed around what the follower considers their “higher self”, which carries the illusion of complete control, consciousness, and, in part, grandiosity.
This layer of personality could be further amplified given the recent claim by burton that “everyone in his group is conscious now” and has somehow transcended their “lower self”, regardless of their apparent lack of conscience in supporting the actions of a serial sexual predator.
The fact that a person doesn’t have dreams, cannot remember them or dismisses the ones they do have as “mechanical” is not, IMO, a hallmark of a “higher level of being” or more mature self-awareness, in fact, it may be the opposite. I mean, if “higher consciousness” were the ultimate goal, why wouldn’t that extend into the dream state?
The second and for me the most healing, is that rather than put myself into the position of being dependent upon the validation of a self-proclaimed “second coming of Christ” so obviously motivated by his own self interest and at the mercy of his own instinctual drives, my dreams are for me self-validating. They show me what I lack in self-awareness and often provide me with emotional experiences for which I long…and that, although Freud discounted as “wishful thinking”, IMO, provides a balance and harmony in my psyche, freeing me from anxiety, FOMO, and compensating for the failed expectation of having my needs met by others.
Furthermore, IMO, if one were to desire a feeling of connectedness with others, paying attention to dreams, discovering their underlying symbolic meaning speaks to a wealth of inherent wisdom and archetypical experience that we all share despite our upbringing, financial status, personal taste, or cultural identity.
Dreams cost nothing and one does not have to travel to some faraway location, we naturally go there each night. These are the thoughts I wanted to share as a result of my dreams after I woke up this morning.
Correction: Freud considered dreams “wish fulfillment” not wishful thinking.
Whalerider @ 46
I’m not inclined to believe that science holds primacy over truth. Science can be a tool for revealing certain types of truth… but I think the tool can be differentiated from the truth revealed. The type of truth revealed depends upon the tool that’s used – science is a tool of the ‘head’… personally heart-based truths resonate more for me; the truth of a poem, of a song, the truths of dreams, the truth of beauty, the truth of the creative act, the truth of love and the acts of kindness that come of empathy and compassion.
Speaking as a fellow “cult survivor” I have to ask what does that even mean? A friend who also left the FOF years ago – we’ve stayed in contact over the years since – said a while back about the FOF episode: “I don’t know if we’ll ever live it down.” No doubt for some the experience makes an indelible imprint upon the soul – in that sense even with the good fortune of having left the confines of the cult, the after-effects of the experience remain… and I think on some level to some degree although perspective may change with time, the after-effects always will remain.
I know that even today the lens through which one views the world is colored by cult experience… an interpretation given to “the buddhist’s” dream and speculation as to the underlying motives for example… does the anti-cult-filter provide insights which would otherwise be missing? Maybe so but I have to wonder what things might otherwise look like, how focus, perceptions, biases, relationships are influenced as a result of the filters… in considering what it means to be a “survivor” I wonder now about the converse – what life would have been like had I not gone through the experience, what filters on the world would otherwise be… it would be different, I know that.
So a question is, have I really escaped if I carry the experience with me? Can surviving be equated simply with leaving the physical confines of the cult ? Is “escaping” surviving ? What is escape really ? The imprint on the soul, the ramifications of cult life and lasting implications of for example, “lost” time, ruined relations, what might have otherwise been – if taken into consideration, maybe the term “survivor” doesn’t exactly fit since one still lives with the experience, crawling from the wreckage.
ton2u:
You pose very good questions, worth pondering.
While some truths do resonate as self-evident and will never change, I do believe the scientific method of inquiry provides a flexible path that sometimes can change based upon where the evidence leads one, and more often than not it leads one in an unexpected direction and to an unforeseen discovery.
In the FOF cult dogma, however, all roads lead to burton, the center of the spider’s web. That will never change.
So what does it mean to have endured any trauma and to reflect upon the experience later?
Speaking for myself, I suppose I consider myself a cult survivor like an Ebola survivor (as opposed to a cult victim) which IMO is more empowering, with an attuned immune response inoculating me from further harm.
As a survivor I would happily share my antibodies if needed, and would be eternally grateful if a survivor did the same for me were I infected.
By the same token, what does it mean to be a “recovered alcoholic” (a label I despise) when one carries the stigma of alcoholism within the title?
You are absolutely right that the cult experience can leave an indelible mark, which may or may not be what one is after. Therein lies the danger.
In that regard there really are no survivors; but the same is true of life in general, is it not?
50. WhaleRider
Does a cancer survivor carry the stigma of cancer? Of course not. He is a lucky winner — many people lose the battle with cancer.
We shouldn’t fell guilty for joining a cult or proud for leaving it — we should be grateful of our luck for having survived one.
Ton2u:
Exactly my point. A cult survivor is akin to a cancer survivor, a title of which to be proud. Some do not survive cults either, luckily we did.
But cancer is not a label; it doesn’t refer to the person. “Alcoholic” does. Sorry, that’s the stigma I meant. It saddens me when I hear a person identified (literarily) by a diagnosis. “Alcohol dependency”, for instance, only refers to an aspect of the person involved.
52. WhaleRider
I believe your comment was directed to me, not Ton2u. At any rate, we are on the same page.
51 Cult Survivor
52 Whalerider
Maybe this is too much a game of semantics – but I think the comparison of the experiences of a cancer survivor or alcoholic with the experience and inner terrain of a “cult survivor” is off the mark… IMO this is apples to oranges to onions… the experiences of each are completely different if talking about anything other than the negative implications of “labeling” and “stigmas.”
On a personal note, I know that as a result of involvement with this cult things died within me and around me – many things do not survive as a result of being in a cult… but one carries on… I guess it could be called survival unless what is lost is taken into consideration.
Just to clarify – with reflection, this blog is afterall at least in part an exercise in reflection, with maybe too much dwelling on the past… anyway, personally, I feel neither guilt nor pride about my time in a cult… what I was trying to get at in the thread above is the feeling of loss – not guilt, nor pride, but the loss of what might have been, and might be now if not for. I know this is a futile exercise… it is what it is… things are what they are… and I can accept that with some level of equanimity.
More generally regarding present situations and a question of “self-awareness,” this came up for me with Whalerider’s “cult survivor’s” perspective and anti-cult analysis of “the buddhist” from the lucid dreaming clip. My take on the panel discussion was very different, I didn’t get the cult recruitment subterfuge and hidden agenda angle but I can see where WR is coming from… how “the buddhist” may or may not be aware of his effect – depending upon the listener… how filters of perception get colored and overlaid for better or worse – in some cases maybe overly-sensitized and distorting… but definitely coloring perception, sometimes adding attributions that may or may not be well-founded, how we all carry biases that we take for “reality” and “truth” and so it becomes individual truth.
Ton2u:
Semantics aside, my intention was not to minimize your pain. Please accept my apology.
54. ton2u
Maybe this is too much a game of semantics – but I think the comparison of the experiences of a cancer survivor or alcoholic with the experience and inner terrain of a “cult survivor” is off the mark
I agree with you because IMO the experience of being a cult survivor is both like a cancer survivor (something that happened to us) and a former alcoholic (we became addicted to it).
Semantics aside, I’m glad we escaped and have this forum to share our experiences and opinions. Now let’s be COVID-19 survivors!
Whalerider,
No apology necessary, I take no offense at your offerings here, to the contrary, I appreciate it! Maybe I should be apologizing for my part in any misapprehensions…. just consider it the blathering of someone with too much “free time” right now… but this too shall pass.
CS… I don’t think I’ll be convinced of equating the cult experience, cancer and alcoholism – seems like quite a stretch – all are completely different things, it’s too facile a comparison at best… so we’ll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
57. ton2u
Sure, it’s our different experiences and opinions that make this forum interesting, like a fabric with different colors of threads. One thing is certain though: we are all survivors here and survivors have a lot in common.
Cult Survivor, don’t get me wrong… seems there may be some misinterpretation… my previous questioning of what it means to be a “cult survivor” is just ruminating “out loud” – or in writing here… it isn’t intended in any way as an “attack” on your choice of blog pseudonym.
While we may have something(s) in common, other things not so much… I don’t agree that “one thing is certain” what is certainty anyway? in many cases it may simply be an individual’s fixed notion. Much is uncertain and a matter of interpretation and opinion, for example; “survival” in this case is not a “black or white” issue, it depends on how you look at it. Again, don’t get me wrong, I feel fortunate to be out of the confines of this cult, but for me many things didn’t survive as a result of time therein.
To continue arguing semantics is not of interest – you have your point of view and I mine, that being said, I’m happy for you that you’ve found your way to relative freedom.
John Harmer,
carding wool?
59. ton2u
Cult Survivor, don’t get me wrong… seems there may be some misinterpretation… my previous questioning of what it means to be a “cult survivor” is just ruminating “out loud” – or in writing here… it isn’t intended in any way as an “attack” on your choice of blog pseudonym.
I never felt you were commenting on my pseudonym, it’s all good. I guess we all have too much time in our hands these days, as you said… I’m going for a walk in the park (with my face mask, of course).
When two individuals disagree about what a word means to each of them, is it just an argument then, end of discussion?
Asking for a friend 🙂
We can agree to disagree and still be friends.
ton2u:
Would you be willing to talk about the “many things” in you or about that you lost or that didn’t survive the cult? I’m having difficulty understanding what you mean. 99% of what I lost upon leaving were my illusions. What I gained is priceless to me.
I’m aware of what burton asked of you and your partner, was it more than that?
Whalerider,
I feel my self-indulgence has probably already exceeded what is appropriate in this forum… blame it on the “free time.” Anyway I’m not comfortable with getting further into it here… well, maybe a little – the tip of an iceberg; family, friends, time, youth, “joie de vivre,” health, self-confidence, sense of well-being and security… I will say the main thing that was lost is trust… you could, if you like, extrapolate from there all that’s implied when trust is lost.
I’m glad for you that you feel you’ve gained something you value beyond the cost !
I lost my innocence and learned to trust myself.
Is the result positive or negative? I’m a positive type (Jovial) so I believe is positive. My wife is a negative type (Lunar) so she will say is negative. It’s actually neither positive nor negative — it is what it is.
#59 Ton2U regarding the Donald Hoffman interview. Thanks for pointing it out, I like Donald Hoffman’s scientific approach. But I think his view of reality is less likely than the materialist view. In particular I was uneasy when he asserted that neurons don’t exist when you aren’t looking at them. I thought the interviewer did a good job, and was happy that Galen Strawson was mentioned, elements of Hoffman’s theory certainly reminded me of Strawson’s panpsychic position. Here is a paper by Mario Bunge that puts the realist case that I prefer to Hoffman’s account: https://www.academia.edu/37398481/Bunge_Mario_Matter_and_Mind_A_Philosophical_Inquiry_Springer_2010_?email_work_card=view-paper
ton2u:
Thanks for venturing “there” if even just for a taste. I maybe wrong, but I don’t sense anyone here is complaining about sharing your personal reflections. I value your contributions and invite you to prompt me if you think I have strayed too far off topic.
Given the current political mess we’re in, I can certainly empathize with you on the loss of trust and the disintegration anxiety which fills the void.
Lately, I’ve been longing to spend some time in the wilderness…just so I can witness broadly once again how decay nourishes new life, which gets sanitized from view living in a city. That’s what “alchemy” means to me now.
I don’t think a person, especially at our age, can have too much time on our hands, when it usually feels like there’s not enough!
Cult Survivor,
Everyone’s experience and outcomes are different… congratulations, good for you! you’ve found a silver lining!
Regarding “types” personally I haven’t been using that lens for quite some time, categorizing and “pigeon-holing” people is a construct which tends to limit perception of unique individuality… something akin to what Whalerider was referring to @ 52 with labeling someone “an alcoholic.”
John Harmer,
Ya I could’t wrap my head around some of what Hoffman was saying – like the theory that questions whether a physical structure exists if there is no one to observe it… harkens back to if a tree falls in the forest… etc.
I agree, preparation by the interviewer adds a lot to the discussion. The “hard problem of consciousness” is not going away so I think it’s natural to take an “a priori” approach to postulate consciousness as fundamental, though “non-material” structure… it is a “structuring” principle. Sounds like Hoffman is well on the way to proving it using mathematic formula… if this view of reality is taken as a basic underlying truth, the human race may in the future become conditioned to perceive the world much differently than the current materialistic worldview. How different human involvement in this world would be if the dominant paradigm were something along the lines of panpsychism… it would change the way we as a species perceive and relate to the natural world… as opposed to the current conditioning of materialism…. it would be a much different place if everything on the planet was not simply assumed to be dead matter put here exclusively as a human resource to chew up and shit out.
From the comments section – speaks to the ever-changing confluence of technology, human perception and prevailing conditioning of the human mind:
“Did you ever notice how our ideas of Reality tend to reflect what’s going on with our technology? During the Industrial Revolution where we started to make precise machinery, the idea emerged that the Universe is mechanical and operates on strict, predictable principles. In recent years we have received ideas such as the brain being an information processor like a computer, and speculation about whether the world is a simulation like a virtual reality. Here, Hoffman is talking about something like a social network.”
Whalerider,
I’ve been off work for going on 2 months now… the wife says it’s a preview of what retirement is going to be like… I say I don’t think so… I feel like I’m in a holding pattern here – even though school will not reopen for the rest of this school year, I don’t have the freedom of mobility that would exists if not for sequestration. I was planning to retire in a couple of years but if the economy dries up and retirement funds evaporate that may not be possible…. working from cradle to grave. But I can dream about what retirement would be like – that’s my preparation… if/when it happens it will involve travel… something that’s not possible under the current circumstances, so I don’t really consider this a preview of retirement. You’re right about “our age” and the sense of time… seems to speed up with the years.
68. ton2u
Everyone’s experience and outcomes are different… congratulations, good for you! you’ve found a silver lining!
Thank you, I wish the same to you!
Regarding “types” personally I haven’t been using that lens for quite some time, categorizing and “pigeon-holing” people is a construct which tends to limit perception of unique individuality… something akin to what Whalerider was referring to @ 52 with labeling someone “an alcoholic.”
I disagree. “Alcoholic” shows an addiction problem and carries a stigma and “Jovial” is just a genetic configuration, like height or the color of the eyes. There is a tendency when leaving a cult to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. I use the system of types, features and centers daily and helps me professionally, socially and — yes — spiritually. For example, every time I interact with you or Whalerider, I try to remember that the three of us have a vanity chief feature. At this point it’s pretty obvious — look how much time we spend talking about ourselves and how much space we take here. That’s helps me to be careful not to “offend” both of you and not to be negative when I am “offended”. Vanity has a thin skin you know… Another example is in relationships: knowing that my wife is a Lunar with stubbornness chief feature and that my second feature is power avoids unnecessary confrontations when those 2 features “lock”. I could go on and on but I believe I made my point — to continue would be vanity 🙂
#71 Cult Survivor, you mention that you continue to use some of the categories we all learnt in the FoF in your daily life, and find them helpful. It is a point of view. Most of us use terms like introvert/extrovert which were made up by Jung, and it enriches the language to have these options. Personally I made a conscious effort to stop using all the FoF work language after I left. I observed in myself that use of the language was a big part of belonging to the “club” of FoF students, and continuing to use it, even if just internally, felt like I was still inhabiting that place that was engendered by FoF membership, that I have a special knowledge that gives me an advantage over life people. I have not regretted that effort, it has helped me feel a clean break with that whole mindset. It may not work out that way for you of course.
Cult Survivor:
You are a funny guy. As long as the cult exists, I will have something to say about it.
Imagine I’m a lighthouse.
Cult Survivor,
This comes to mind – might sound familiar:
“If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his cavern.”
I suggest to you that the system you cling to (it clings to you), is cult conditioning and the conditioned mind is nothing more than the obscuring narrow chinks of your cavern.
I expect you’ll disagree, you won’t get it – you’re a relatively recent escapee and that little world-view won’t let you go… at least not yet, but with time, perspectives can change – you’ll see.
For now – whatever floats yer boat dude.
Cult Leader Asks Followers to Donate Entire Stimulus Checks
Or-else House, CA The controversial megacult leader Robert E Burton has requested that his followers donate their government issued stimulus checks to his megacult bank account to make up the difference after a lull in monthly donations due to the coronavirus shut down.
“That $1200 is meant for me”, he is reported to have said in a sickly sweet, soft voice. “C-influence sent the coronavirus, a message from world 12, like I said before, and the 12 in 1200 proves it. I get the 12, you get the 00.”
“Hunger is a higher state”, one selfless follower stated, under the condition they not be named due to their vanity feature. “One should only be hungry for the crumbs of truth that fall from the teacher’s mouth at his dinners. Everyone else must keep silent and stare at him, not their delicious meal they must not touch to avoid contaminating food destined for the compost bin of life.”
“The teacher has told us we have nothing to fear, and I believe everything he says,” another anonymous follower added, also on condition they not be named because they are unauthorized to speak on their own behalf. “A good student is not even afraid of death, for the teacher tells us death is only a gateway to paradise, after three more life times.”
It is also reported that Burton has increased the social distance between himself and any new followers from two to three years due to the rise of information available on the internet, fully insuring new followers are completely infected with his viral ideas and awestruck when they are finally allowed to meet him for the first time.
75. WhaleRider; Is this rumor or for real,
I don’t know how to put it another way?
Rich:
Neither real nor rumor, it’s satire, direct from c-influence. I’m just the messenger.
77. WhaleRider – April 20, 2020
Perfect.
Thought for April ~ Stay Where You Are
Video ~ Maximize Presence
http://robertearlburton.net/robert-earl-burton-thoughts/stay-where-you-are/
“In a very real sense, one of best ways to wake up from Burton’s hypnosis and mind control is to watch his act remotely, rather than in person. That’s what everyone is doing now.”
18. Insider ~ April 5, 2020
Golden Veil, ————ugh!
More pouring from the empty into the void. Even the most sedulous of followers can’t come up with anything better than this crap, semantic content, zero. Formulaic one–liners with no context, useless at best and misleading at worst.
_____________________________________
So, let us imagine “The Brightest Light in 150 Centuries” and his daily schedule. He is at the tippy–top of the pyramid, the base of which is 1500 or so infatuated or fearful followers. In the middle is a layer composed of hundreds of underlings living in Oregon House (‘at the heart of the school’). Of these, the most privileged or opportunistic regularly seek a few of the 1440 minutes a day that Burton–and every other mortal–experiences. Above them are the ‘professional managerial class’. These are the hangers–on, the facilitators, the wannabees, the intermediaries, who act as the filters, the translators and interpreters of messages both going up and going down. The most assiduous and fawning of these, those most eager to please, and those with political talent have intermittent or even daily contact with Burton. The God–Emperor’s schedule is filled with meetings and shopping expeditions and vacation dates for months in advance. And that’s just the expected stuff – inevitably some crisis, such as Asaf’s departure for greener pastures, or Burton’s urgent need to go buy yet another antique clock, will pack the schedule even tighter.
Very few of these people competing for some of Burton’s 1440 minutes will tell him he’s not doing a very good job or that his World View of Things is defective. That would not go down well at all, at all.
Contrariwise, outside that bubble, assuming a decent, principled leader is intelligent, wise, a good manager, industrious, well-educated, knowledgeable, a good judge of character, with a strong sense of reality, she or he will just be able to keep their head above water for that 1440 minutes and push on the two or three issues that they really take an interest in.
Fortunately, we never have to fear that such a schedule will drown a stupid, incompetent, foolish, lazy, ignorant narcissist like Burton. Rather, his schedule is based on his random desires at any particular moment: Sasha, tell Vladimir to come to my bedroom in five minutes, dear, and Nikolai ten minutes after that. Or, order me a dozen more lavender silk shirts from our Hong–Kong tailor, dear, but ask him to make them one size bigger, I have to leave room for the Valentine’s Day offerings. Or, Dorian, remind me of what I predicted about Armageddon last week, dear, and have it printed on a Daily Card. Or tell Kevin to post selections from his collection of my words of wisdom on ‘Robert’s Tweehearts’—and make a list of any students haven’t looked studied them by this time next week.
Maybe Burton seems gloriously free, in the minds of his followers. Myself, I can’t think of any more abject example of slavery. Burton is completely ruled by his desires, has been for decades, and there is no room for independent thought or action, and never will be.
God–Emperor? How about Idiot Queen?
80. amesgilbert1 – April 22, 2020
I agree with you on the “more pouring from the empty” although I would not describe his avid followers “the void” but maybe that’s not what you meant. My favorite empty aphorism is “Time passes, we stay.”
A new film of interest
The documentary Spaceship Earth tells the story of John Allen’s projects from co-founding the Theater of All Possibilities (the San Francisco group apparently later taken over by Alex Horn), leading his group in building the Vajra, a 55 room hotel in Katmandu, building and sailing the amazing Heraclitus Research Ship, to founding the Synergia Ranch in New Mexico and conceiving of and building the unprecedented self-contained Biosphere2, now owned by the University of Arizona. Except for the theater, his projects were primarily funded by oil money billionaire Ed Bass. A very interesting film, it will be screening online soon in May.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/spaceship-earth-official-trailer-launching-everywhere-may-8/vi-BB130onG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theater_of_All_Possibilities
https://hotelvajra.com/
https://rvheraclitus.org/
https://synergiaranch.com/about-us/
https://biosphere2.org/
#79 robertearlburton.net. Well the new thought stopping idea is “Uncreated Light” which sounds like the macguffin in a science fiction/fantasy film aimed at the teenage demographic. I noticed that most of the aphorisms he quotes are not even grammatically correct, which speaks to a lack of intellectual rigour in Burton himself, and that sloppy approach is aped by his followers.
#82 quick heads up, when I clicked on the link to rvheraclitus.org my virus checking software said stay away, a known source of malware.
#84 rvheraclitus.org website works fine for me. All the videos on the website play properly too.
“I noticed that most of the aphorisms he quotes are not even grammatically correct, which speaks to a lack of intellectual rigour in Burton himself, and that sloppy approach is aped by his followers.”
~ 83. John Harmer – April 23, 2020
* Yes, and you know ~ these aphorisms could actually be written by the Russian students themselves, for example, Sasha, for whom English is a second language.
~ 84. John Harmer – April 23, 2020
“#82 quick heads up, when I clicked on the link to rvheraclitus.org my virus checking software said stay away, a known source of malware.”
* Try opening the link in a different browser.
~ from Golden Veil, one of many sources of the Fellowship of Friends Discussion Blog “B Influencers” (if not “C influencers”) who are avidly read by Students of the Fellowship of Friends and Robert
Earl Burton, himself.
84. John Harmer – April 23, 2020
You can learn a lot about the research ship Heraclitus ~ its builders, founding principles and voyages here.
#87 Thanks for the link Golden Veil. They seem like a bunch of good people doing what they can to save the planet.
I also like the gnomic comments that have trickled down to us from Heraclitus.
Call me risk averse, but if Norton tell me not to go to a site – I don’t go there.
cult survivor:
If you will indulge me, and I promise not to be offended, I’d like to engage you in the topic you think we both share.
And if your wife has anything to add in her observations of how you grapple with yourself on this front, her contributions might shed light on the matter, too.
Now I provided you with another paradigm, the wasting away of personal growth that occurs in the narcissus/echo dyad, does that resonate at all with any observations as a result of “working” on yourself, given that you may still be aiming to resist what you consider “mechanical” about your so-called “body type”, namely your so-called “chief feature”?
Let me ask you: if you or I truly had something of value to offer others, hypothetically speaking, how would “doing the opposite”, namely in our case, swinging the pendulum toward wallowing in “non-existence”, i. e., “not taking up space”, how would that benefit anyone other than yourself?
Would that not just be a way of internalizing the same issue, in other words, feeding a different self-centered-ness at the expense of others…two sides of the same coin, so to speak?
It seems to me the global weaponization of “vanity” in the FOF cult would cause a follower to bury a talent in order for thin-skinned burton to always shine. And it’s clear to me that a person suffering from narcissistic personality disorder (vanity extremis) will surround himself or herself with those willing to accommodate his or her sense of entitlement and grandiosity at their own expense.
So now that you are out of the cult, in your mind, is there any room for turning one’s perceived weakness into a strength?
As Maslow might say, someone has to do it, why not me?
If one were to naturally gravitate toward center stage as some do for various reasons, then knowing oneself, wouldn’t it be healthy to have or develop something of value to offer others, as in the point of view of an artist, or virtuoso musician for example, without having to leverage one’s status, position, or power over others to provide constant adulation, which clearly is not the case on the blog?
Asking for a friend 🙂
Request for help…
I’m trying to find a copy of the SIGNED copy of David Springfield’s Letter to the Board of Directors (November 19, 2007). I downloaded it using PACER while it was briefly available on 6/30/2019 as part of the court documents in the case of Minne et al v. Stroomberg et al, but cannot find it, probably not transferred to my newer computer in 2012. Abraham Goldman got the court to seal this record within a day, so it was not available to the public after that.
So, I’m wondering if any reader followed the instructions I laid out on the blog, and downloaded their own copy. Or, if you came across the letter complete with signature before or afterwards. Or, if you know of any other way to verify that the document was actually signed by David Springfield.
Anyone who has solid information can reach me via the moderator, or I am in the Grass Valley phone book.
Asking for a friend 👍…
To jog your memories, I append my post from that time.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
# 75-37 (June 30, 2009)
Well, I never knew until today how much fun one can have for three bucks and change!
If you go to the link provided by Just the Facts Ma’am (#75-14 or thereabouts), you’ll see two case numbers for Minne et al v. Stroomberg et al, 2:2209at00345 and 2:2009cv00625. I clicked on the latter, which took me to a new page devoted to that case. When I scrolled down the page, I found a heading, “Access Additional Case Information on PACER”. PACER is a public records access system. I clicked on ‘History/Documents’. The next page invited me to login to the records, or to subscribe to PACER. I subscribed, and after giving my credit card information and such, was able to access the system in about ten minutes. Back to the ‘History/Documents’, and for 16 cents I got a summary. I’m no lawyer, so I chose the documents closest to the twenty day window after the initial filing. There were three available, all called Reply to Response to Motion. All interesting, but to save you guys some time, the pertinent one is #26. 82 pages, but the government only asks you to pay for the first 30 pages of any document.
Lots of interesting stuff here, folks, and some revealing relationships. The way I see it, the gist of the claim is: David Springfield was the lawyer for the defendants until fairly recently; he was hired and was paid for legal work he did for them; and, he and Abraham Goldman are inextricably intertwined professionally; David Springfield knew a great deal about the defendants financially and personally, knowledge gained over many years of working for their interests. Hence the claim of conflict of interest and the request to have Goldman and Goldman Associates removed from the case.
Lots of supporting exhibits. Here’s the best, from my point of view, Exhibit G. It is, wait for drum roll, David Springfield’s Letter to the Board of Directors (November 19, 2007). Of course we, and all sentient beings with operating consciences, are interested mostly in the stern and truthful finger pointing to various criminal activities within the Fellowship of Friends, but the defendants entered the letter into the record as one of the proofs that Springfield and Goldman were indeed intimately associated in their legal practice.
So, any member of the public has access to these records. I, an interested member of the public at large, have just accessed them. The letter is therefore indubitably and incontrovertibly (I love those big words!) in the public domain, and Abraham Goldman has been ‘actively misdirecting’ (use your own synonym here) us, WordPress, Archive.org, Godlike Productions, and no doubt others by claiming privilege when he knew and knows full well there is no privilege.
So, for just $2.56, you too can verify for yourself that the signed letter exists. David Springfield’s signature has quite the flourish, and is unmistakable. The letter is true, has been entered into a federal court record, and contains important truths. Names have been blacked out (now I understand the name, Black Marker), but are not hard to guess; the usual suspects.
Black Marker, whoever you are, and for whatever reasons you posted the letter originally, I thank you again. You have done a great service. And if you have more documents, I strongly encourage you to first post them on Wikileaks, then tell us how to find them (don’t post a direct link, just tell us the search terms). That will surely save the blog moderator some grief!
90. amesgilbert1
For people that are not familiar, the letter that FOF lawyer David Springfield supposedly sent to the Board of Directors on 11/19/07 is available for download at Wikileaks:
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Censored_Fellowship_of_Friends_cult_letter_from_former_legal_council_David_Springfield,_2009
CS, what was sent to Wikileaks were the words on the blog as posted by ‘Black Marker’, but transferred to a Word document. No signature attached. What I downloaded from the court records had the names blacked out, but had Springfield’s signature at the bottom. This is what I can’t lay my hands on at the moment.
I was also told a short while afterwards by several people that photocopies of this letter had previously been ‘circulating’ (their words) amongst some people in the Fellowship of Friends, un–redacted, i.e., exactly as the original, complete with signature. So, I’m hoping word of my request will reach someone who has either the version downloaded from the court, or the version that was circulating. What matters is the signature.
92. amesgilbert1
Every mailbox at the Oregon House Post Office got a copy of the letter at the time. I recall the names were not blacked out and I’m pretty sure it had Springfield’s signature but I’m not 100% certain. May be somebody kept that letter.
Hey Cult Survivor, thanks for that astonishing update.
So, what happened after all box holders got their copy of the letter? What was your personal reaction? What was the reaction of your friends? Was there any pushback, like e–mails or letters from Abraham Goldman, and/or the ministers? If so, how did they explain things? Special meetings?
Did the authorities ever discover who sent out the mass mailing?
What happened next? What happened to David Lubbers?
I’m sure I”m not the only one who wants to know ‘the rest of the story’!
94. amesgilbert1
The letter had little or no impact in the Apollo community (the centers never knew about their existence). Nobody tried to verify if the letter was authentic or if the claims were true. I mentioned the letter to a friend of mine (also a member) and he said “it’s the work of a former student, most likely a broken machine.”
94. amesgilbert1
Given the revealing, sensitive and potentially explosive nature of David’s letter, at the time it seemed highly probable to me that it was leaked/mailed by someone on the Board, or possibly by the Fellowship CFO, to whom the letter was addressed in addition to the Board members.
Whoever it was went so far as to print return address labels, which were affixed to each envelop. The return address was:
“Pathway to Presence”
The Fellowship of Friends
P.O. Box 100
Oregon House
CA 95962
Funny that the return address would include “Pathway to Presence.”
Veronicapoe (if you know who that may be) may have, or know where to get, the original letter you are looking for, Ames. Good luck.
It saddens me to hear the terms “damaged machine” used so casually in the cult. To me it’s the same feeling I have when hearing a white person use the offensive “n” word when referring to people of color.
IMO, when cult members refer to any person as a “damaged machine” is both inhumane and cruel because it infers not only that as a “machine” a person is less than human…but also is “damaged” beyond repair, which may be true on a physical level if one were to lose a leg, however, in my experience that is certainly not always the case on the emotional level. People do heal on many levels.
Ultimately, it speaks more about the person labeling others in that manner than to whom they are referring. Is it therefore vain to feel offended when demeaned by others and more “evolved” to keep silent…or to speak out against prejudice?
IMO, the reason burton seems unconsciously compelled to label outsiders as “damaged machines” is that it may be a defensive projection caused by the narcissistic wound he undoubtedly suffered by being labeled a “damaged machine” by fourth way dogma and likely by his abusive “teacher” regarding his homosexuality and predatory behavior which for nefarious reasons he kept hidden from his followers for many years. Obviously burton doesn’t consider himself as damaged goods but quite the opposite.
Re: the theory of mechanical “body types”
If a pure “Saturn” body type and a pure “Lunar” body type were to have a child, would that child tend to be one “body type” or the other, or a genetic combination of both? Are we to assume all “saturn” genes are dominate and all “lunar” genes are recessive?
And if the child were a genetic combination of these two different “body types” forming, as one might expect, a “lunar-saturn” or a “saturn-lunar” body type, how does that square with the theoretical “jovial-lunar-venusian-mercury-saturn-mars” progression of “body types” along the enneagram, as posited by Rodney Collin?
Surely you must have encountered people both in life and in the FOF cult whose physical traits and “active/passive”, “masculine/feminine” qualities did not fit neatly into a rigid “body type”, like a “lunar-martial” type, for instance? I certainly did, which led me to question the practice of placing others in “mechanical” categories.
Is it that difficult to take a more nuanced approach and accept each person as an individual with a unique combination of external traits and internal characteristics?
The documentary mentioned by Golden Veil on Post # 92 is now showing on Hulu:
https://www.hulu.com/movie/spaceship-earth-e3636bb2-0aab-43bf-843c-96a4dde8d9a3
From the post above:
The documentary Spaceship Earth tells the story of John Allen’s projects from co-founding the Theater of All Possibilities (the San Francisco group apparently later taken over by Alex Horn), leading his group in building the Vajra, a 55 room hotel in Katmandu, building and sailing the amazing Heraclitus Research Ship, to founding the Synergia Ranch in New Mexico and conceiving of and building the unprecedented self-contained Biosphere2, now owned by the University of Arizona. Except for the theater, his projects were primarily funded by oil money billionaire Ed Bass.
I watched it — kind of boring. Interesting only for young magnetic centers (just kidding!).
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