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Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 188 May 10, 2020

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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Living Presence Discussion.

Here, you can share your thoughts, your stories, your own experiences as a former member of the FOF.  If you are considering becoming a member, you are invited to read the discussion to better know the organization you are considering joining; we welcome your questions. Participants in the discussion may post under their own name, or anonymously.

The first comment of all new participants will be moderated before they can start communicating in real-time.  You will need to register with a valid email address and be able to reply to the welcome/verification email you will receive. If you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear within a day after it has been submitted; any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, such as personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion anonymously will prompt a warning. Continued abuse will result in your removal from the discussion.

To visit the official site of The  Fellowship Of Friends;

http://livingpresence.com/

Comments»

1. WhaleRider - May 11, 2020

“…he is actually testing people’s loyalty to the ‘laws’ of his mind over the laws of nature, or even impulse for survival. The more he abuses them, the greater their devotion grows, since the psychological cost of admitting their mistake is ever higher — and so it becomes easier to dig a well of unreality than to see the obvious truth..

~Dr Bandy X. Lee, a forensic psychiatrist at the Yale School of Medicine on testing loyalty in the cult of trump.

2. WhaleRider - May 11, 2020

Mental symptoms do not discriminate between levels of intelligence. What we are seeing is what mental health experts warned would happen if we left a severely impaired person in an influential position without treatment, and what others have described as a cult.

But what I find most insidious is the contagion of symptoms: prolonged exposure…causes you to “catch” his worldview, and even the healthiest, soundest people turn “crazy,” as if afflicted with the same condition.

This is a known phenomenon I have encountered a great deal from working in underserved settings. It is interchangeably called “shared psychosis,” “folie à plusieurs” or “induced delusional disorder.” The cure is removal. Then, quite dramatically, an entire afflicted family, street gang or prison cell-block that seemed almost “possessed” returns to normal.

When experts call out abnormal signs, it is not a diagnosis but important information…It is not up to mental health experts to say how it is to be done, but it is our responsibility to say what must be done, based on our best assessment. Our prescription is removal.

~Dr Bandy X. Lee, a forensic psychiatrist at the Yale School of Medicine

3. Associated Press - May 11, 2020

As mentioned in:
187/82. Golden Veil – April 23, 2020
“A new film of interest

The documentary Spaceship Earth tells the story of John Allen’s projects from co-founding the Theater of All Possibilities (the San Francisco group apparently later taken over by Alex Horn), leading his group in building the Vajra, a 55 room hotel in Katmandu, building and sailing the amazing Heraclitus Research Ship, to founding the Synergia Ranch in New Mexico and conceiving of and building the unprecedented self-contained Biosphere2, now owned by the University of Arizona.”

And
187/99. Cult Survivor – May 9, 2020
“The documentary mentioned by Golden Veil on Post # [8]2 is now showing on Hulu”

Here is a trailer:
(see: 1) mentions of cult and
2) enneagram that appears at ~1:35 into the 2:13 long clip.)
Spaceship Earth
Pub: May 7, 2020

4. Vinnie The Fish - May 13, 2020

For once I agree with Bruce on the previous page, even though he’ll predictably attack me for it lol.

You always had the option to say ‘no’.
It’s not like RB is a powerful brute that could rape you.
(Thankfully I never got put in that position, but I hope I would have said ‘no’, and run away like a lot did.)

Most WOMEN have probably been in the same predicament, having been seduced with lies, dreams and promises, had sex and then been treated like shit, because it turns out all the guy wanted was sex. For the ‘prey’, it’s always a decision about what you’re going to GET out of giving sex to someone.

Women are used to it, it’s just part of life.
Unfortunately it’s a big stigma for straight guys to get their ass busted.

So get over it guys.
If 90% of women can, you can too.

——–

19. brucelevy – April 5, 2020

What the queen Robert Earl Burton all his life wanted was to suck straight cock and be worshiped by the morons who he attracted like flies on shit. And we gave it to him.
20. Cult Survivor – April 5, 2020

19. brucelevy

We didn’t give it to him, he took it from us. We are lucky that all he wanted was sex, money and adoration and not our lives, like many other leaders of destructive cults. We are fortunate to be here to tell the story.
21. Insider – April 5, 2020

19/20.

We believed in Burton’s bullshit: becoming “conscious beings,” going to “Paradise,” being watched over by angels. We believed it, because we wanted to believe it, not because Burton forced us to. Did not our vanity mesh almost perfectly with Burton’s?
22. brucelevy – April 5, 2020

20. Cult Survivor

We fucking gave it to him willfully.
23. brucelevy – April 5, 2020

20. Cult Survivor

If you want to bullshit yourself be my guest.

5. ton2u - May 13, 2020
6. Cult Survivor - May 13, 2020

4. Vinnie The Fish

If a woman has sex with a man because of false promises is she “giving it to him willfully”? What about the hundreds (thousands?) of men from Russia, Romania, Brazil, etc. that had sex with Burton over the last three decades? Did they “give it to him willfully”?

It’s important to take into account that saying no to Burton’s advances would mean for those men to go back to their countries and lose their status, clothes, green cards, etc., similarly to those young women from Third World countries that meet an older man from a First World country online, move to his country and marry him to improve the quality of their lives. Most of them probably find sex with their new husbands disgusting but they do it because they don’t want to lose their status, clothes, green cards, etc.

In summary, from one point of view “Robert’s boys” (as they are called in the FOF) are “giving to him willfully”, from another point of view they are being abused — it all depends how you look at it.

7. brucelevy - May 13, 2020

6. Cult Survivor

I never said they weren’t being “abused”. I’m saying they submitted without a gun to their head. In reality we could have said no. I said no after a week. And then I moved out of the Boy Cottage and resumed sleeping under the dining tables at the lodge.

8. Cult Survivor - May 13, 2020

7. brucelevy

As far as I know you’re not originally from a Third World country and saying no to Burton didn’t result in a loss of status, clothes or a green card (please correct me if I’m wrong). In my opinion your case was abuse and the case of the boys from Third World countries is exploitation.

9. associated press - May 14, 2020

Perhaps some definition of terms are in good order here as there may be some misuse in this discussion:

willfully:
adverb
1. with the intention of causing harm; deliberately.
[This #1 is sometimes used legally, essentially meaning that a harmful act was premeditated – done on purpose.]
2. with a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences.
[This #2 is how a Lunar Type often responds when they are asked to do something. They are willful, as in chief feature of willfulness – reluctant.]

willingly
adverb
1. readily; of one’s own free will.

10. Cult Survivor - May 14, 2020

Thanks AP for the clarification.

When I used the word “willfully” before I meant “deliberately”, not “with a stubborn intention.” I guess “willingly” would be a more appropriate term.

11. WhaleRider - May 14, 2020

“Willfully” vs willingly…great example of how cult speak is insidiously embedded in the mind.

Hmm, a man who claims to speak for “90% of women” sounds pretty fishy to me.

Gee, I wonder if burton tells the wives and girlfriends whose husbands and boyfriends are being sexually exploited to “just get over it”, too?

And speaking of metaphors, if a follower truly believes that leaving the cult is tantamount to a death sentence, isn’t that the equivalent to “holding a gun to your head”?

12. Cult Survivor - May 14, 2020

11. WhaleRider

And speaking of metaphors, if a follower truly believes that leaving the cult is tantamount to a death sentence, isn’t that the equivalent to “holding a gun to your head”?
Yes, literally. In the case of the Third World boys for them it was not so much about leaving the cult and going to “the end of the Ray of Creation” (death sentence) but going back to their countries (prison sentence). At any rate, they were (are?) not having sex willingly, that’s for sure.

13. WhaleRider - May 15, 2020

Here’s a take on bobby burton’s imaginary friend, Leonardo: Tulpamancy

Tulpa is a concept in mysticism and the paranormal of a being or object which is created through spiritual or mental powers. It was adapted by 20th-century theosophists from Tibetan sprul-pa (Tibetan: སྤྲུལ་པ་, Wylie: sprulpa) which means “emanation” or “manifestation”. Modern practitioners use the term to refer to a type of willed imaginary friend which practitioners consider to be sentient and relatively autonomous.”

~Wikipedia

Here’s how a person creates one in their head:

14. amesgilbert1 - May 15, 2020

In my post 187-6 (previous page), I wrote these words:
“Not to mention, there are so many antique clocks and chandeliers around the world he does not yet own. Can’t start a New Civilization© without ’em, yet where is he going to find the money to purchase them all, since the word ‘enough’ is not in his mentation? Maybe he can apply to Trump for a bailout; after all, the rest of the 1% have got their $$, and there are trillions more wherever they came from!”

Well, it turns out that the PPP (Paycheck Protection Program), was/is actually open to churches. More information here:https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/06/828462517/another-break-from-the-past-government-will-help-churches-pay-pastor-salaries
 
Quoting the NPR article: The new SBA program, however, takes federal funding of religious institutions significantly further. Under the new Paycheck Protection Program, businesses with fewer than 500 employees, including faith-based organizations, are eligible to receive loans of up to $10 million, with at least 75% of the money going to cover payroll costs. The loans are in large part forgivable, so churches and other houses of worship won’t have to worry about paying all the money back.

So, in an amazing act of chutzpah, Burton and the Fellowship of Friends did apply for Covid–19 bailout money, and actually got $200,000, which Burton is already spending as if his life depended on it. What story was spun to justify applying for the money, I have no idea, but I can imagine that what ordinary folks would label lies of commission or omission, were told. The enterprise is rotten to the core, so how could it be otherwise?

Anyway, according to my source, there’s quite a bit of external activity going on right now on the property. Major landscaping changes at the front entrance to the Galleria. Walking paths installed between the Galleria and the Theatron. Roads torn up. One project after another. Though maybe, perhaps, some portion is being spent according to the terms of the grant, on salaries through April and May.
 
One person tried to drive around to see what was going on, and reported that the number of construction vehicles, and all the dust, made it impossible to drive anywhere.

Clearly, Burton is having a great time consciously directing all this activity, just like the good old days.

I would think it safe to assume that keeping the parallel book–keeping systems up–to–date is important—the second set of books ready for any possible enquiries by the IRS, also just like the good old days. So, there are a couple of jobs at least that are safe for the time being! Of course, members of the Board are probably nervously expecting/hoping that they will get away with their usual abdication of oversight/responsibilities once again …

RB also continues to micro–manage of the lives of his followers in other ways. For example, he has ‘advised’ the flock to coordinate 3 walks per day at Apollo; at 8:30am, 4:30pm and 8:00 pm. People are to gather somewhere in order to walk together, but with appropriate distancing.

Burton, however, cannot possibly be maintaining social distancing or the ban on gathering of more than ten people as guests at the elaborate fund–raising dinners he has been hosting for the last ten days or so. Not to mention the servers, who in turn are in constant contact with the cooks and support staff. That’s the great thing about being The Exceptional One™, the Brightest Light in Two Thousand Years™, no laws or regulations, or even plain common sense, apply.

And yes, there are reports of Burton urgently lusting after yet more antiques …

Turns out this Supernova of All Conscious Beings™ is as mechanical and predictable as the sunrise… Whodathunk?

15. Cult Survivor - May 17, 2020

14. amesgilbert1

Thank you for the update. Nothing new at the Apollo Retirement Community – business as usual.

Burton is asking people to walk because he wants people to remember they are in a community and for them to exercise (most residents are in the 60’s or 70’s).

The major landscaping projects look like another demonstration of Burton’s lunatic feature, like the palms and the camels.

What can we expect for the future? Since according to a FOF board member 80% of the income of the FOF comes from Burton’s “teaching events”, when Burton kicks the bucket (or becomes incapable of “teaching”) it’s game over. Meanwhile we will have the pleasure of witnessing a colorful display of dementia, such as “California may fall during this event, does everybody know where the exits are?”

Enjoy the show.

16. John Harmer - May 17, 2020

Here’s a funny thing. This sponsored (I guess that means they paid facebook to place it) post appeared just now on my facebook timeline. Some drippy nonsense about presence floating above the lower self like steam. I gave it the laughing face emoticon, and called out the fact that Girard Haven serves Burton in a sex cult. (The facebook AI has detected I am the sort to like this sort of drivel, which is slightly worrying.) 🙂

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPiBmYHpT-wl1lU0TvSGJ4hFCOIquX1RtZ8mRI6

The originating organisation calls itself “The Prize is Eternity”

17. WhakeRider - May 17, 2020

Maybe for the benefit of internet explorers (or for posterity) “cult survivor” could translate what you mean by “lunatic feature” into contemporary, non-exclusive, non-cult language…just on the off chance a person arriving here for the first time might be unable to interpret cult speak?

I would wager that just mentioning burton’s landscaping projects and camel collection in relation to “lunacy” might not make sense to an outsider…I may be wrong, but the well-ordered gardens probably don’t appear insane and people in California have llamas, why not camels?

And I wonder, has anyone ever inquired how a person who describes himself or herself as a “lunar body-type” might feel about using terms like “lunatic”, and “lunacy” especially when by comparison there aren’t any other so-called “features” that make reference to other “body-types”?

Asking for a friend 🙂

18. Associated Press - May 18, 2020

This may not be what
188/17. WhakeRider – May 17, 2020
was asking for but may help.

Here is something that might help readers understand some terms:

From: Chapter 7, The Fourth Way, P. D. Ouspensky:
Householder, tramp and lunatic — Hasnamuss:

“A question was asked about who is able to come up to this staircase, climb it and reach the Way. Mr Gurdjieff answered by using a Russian word which can be translated as ‘Householder.’ In Indian and Buddhist literature this is a very well-defined type of man and type of life which can bring one to change of being. ‘Snataka’ or ‘Householder’ simply means a man who leads an ordinary life. Such a man can have doubts about the value of ordinary things; he can have dreams about possibilities of development; he can come to a school, either after a long life or at the beginning of life, and he can work in a school. Only from among such men come people who are able to climb the staircase and reach the Path.

Other people he divided into two categories: first, ‘tramps,’ and second, ‘lunatics.’ Tramps do not necessarily mean poor people; they may be rich and may still be ‘tramps’ in their attitude to life. And a ‘lunatic’ does not mean a man deprived of ordinary mind; he may be a statesman or a professor.

These two categories are no good for a school and will not be interested in it; tramps because they are not really interested in anything; lunatics because they have false values. So if they attempt to climb up the staircase they only fall down and break their necks.

First it is necessary to understand these three categories from the point of view of the possibility of changing being, possibility of school-work. This division means only one thing — that people are not in exactly the same position in relation to possibilities of work. There are people for whom the possibility of changing their being exists; there are many people for whom it is practically impossible, because they brought their being to such a state that there is no starting-point in them; and there are people belonging to yet a fourth category who, by different means, have already destroyed all possibility of changing their being. This division is not parallel to any other division. Belonging to one of the first three categories is not permanent and can be changed, but one can come to the work only from the first category, not from the second or the third; the fourth category excludes all possibilities. So, though people may be born with the same rights, so to speak, they lose their rights very easily.

When you understand these categories and find them in your own experience, among your acquaintances, in life, in literature, you will understand this fourth category of people. In ordinary conditions, in ordinary times, they are just criminals or actual lunatics — nothing more.

But in certain periods of history such people very often play a leading part; they may acquire power and become very important people But we must leave them for the moment and concentrate on the first three categories.

Q. Is this possibility of growth of being connected with willingness to obey certain laws and principles?

A. Not necessarily. There are different ways. On the monk’s way, for instance, you have to begin with obeying. There are other ways that do not begin with obeying but with studying and understanding General Laws you cannot disobey, because they make you obey. You can escape from some of them only through growth of being, not in any other way.

Q. Does it follow, then, that people who have connection with a school, however slight, belong to those who can change their being?

A. Certainly, if they are interested in school and are sincere in their attitude towards school, it shows that they belong to those who can. But you see, in each of us there are features of tramp and lunatic. It does not mean that if we are connected with a school we are already free from these features. They play a certain part in us, and in studying being we must detect them; we must know in which way they prevent our work, and we must struggle with them. This is impossible without a school. As I said before, tramps can be not only rich, they can be very well established in life and still be tramps. Lunatics can be very learned people and occupy a big position in life and still be lunatics.

Q. Is one of the features of a lunatic that he wants certain things out of proportion to other things, in such a way that it will be bad for him as a whole?

A. ‘Lunatic’ means a man who always runs after false values, who has no right discrimination. He is always formatory. Formatory thinking is always defective, and lunatics are particularly devoted to formatory thinking: that is their chief affection in one way or another. There are many different ways to be formatory.

Q. Is the tramp side in oneself a sort of irresponsibility that is prepared to throw everything overboard?

A, Quite right. Sometimes it can take very poetical forms: ‘There are no values in the world’—’Nothing is worth anything’—’Everything is relative’ — those are favourite phrases. But actually the tramp is not so dangerous. The lunatic is more dangerous, since it means false values and formatory thinking.

Q. What is it that determines which category a man belongs to?

A. A certain attitude to life, to people, and certain possibilities that one has. It is the same for all the three categories. The fourth category is separate. About this fourth category, I will give you just a few definitions. In the system this category has a special name, consisting of two Turkish words. It is ‘Hasnamuss.’ One of the first things about a ‘Hasnamuss’ is that he never hesitates to sacrifice people or to create an enormous amount of suffering, just for his own personal ambitions. How a ‘Hasnamuss’ is created is another question. It begins with formatory thinking, with being a tramp and a lunatic at the same time. Another definition of a ‘Hasnamuss’ is that he is crystallized in the wrong hydrogens. This category cannot interest you practically, because you have nothing to do with such people; but you meet with the results of their existence.

As I said, for us it is important to understand the second and third categories, because we can find in ourselves features of them both, especially the third. In order to struggle against the second, that is the tramp, school discipline and a general inner discipline are needed, because there is no discipline in a tramp. In a lunatic there may be a great deal of discipline, only of the wrong kind — all formatory. So struggle with formatory thinking is struggle against lunacy in ourselves, and the creation of discipline and self-discipline is struggle against the tramp in us.

As to the characteristics of a man in the first category, that is the householder — to begin with he is a practical man; he is not formatory; he must have a certain amount of discipline, otherwise he would not be what he is. So practical thinking and self-discipline are characteristics of the first category. Such a man has enough of these for ordinary life but not enough for work, so in the work these two characteristics must increase and grow. A householder is a normal man, and a normal man, given favourable conditions, has the possibility of development.”

19. Tim Campion - June 1, 2020
20. Joey Virgo - June 1, 2020

19. Tim Campion

Thanks. The vid was fun and funny. “How can you take a shower on the inside of your body?” one guy said, after drinking Renaissance wine while learning about Robert Burton and his “sexual energy.”Still, I wish at least one person might have known something about wine and/or that the people in the vid knew more about the pain and suffering endured by so many of its former members through Robert Burton, but you can’t always get what you want. The major note was a lighthearted casual survey. I enjoyed the comic relief, and on that level, Robert Burton and his followers need to see the vid, so they can see how much of the organization is just so inconsequential in the overall scheme of things. How little they and their acts matter.

21. brucelevy - June 2, 2020
22. Joey Virgo - June 2, 2020

21. Bruce Levy

Pretty funny.

Another one is: Lockdown Blues – Coronavirus song


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