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Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 184 November 29, 2019

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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Living Presence Discussion.

Here, you can share your thoughts, your stories, your own experiences as a former member of the FOF.  If you are considering becoming a member, you are invited to read the discussion to better know the organization you are considering joining; we welcome your questions. Participants in the discussion may post under their own name, or anonymously.

The first comment of all new participants will be moderated before they can start communicating in real-time.  You will need to register with a valid email address and be able to reply to the welcome/verification email you will receive. If you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear within a day after it has been submitted; any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, such as personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion anonymously will prompt a warning. Continued abuse will result in your removal from the discussion.

To visit the official site of The  Fellowship Of Friends;

http://livingpresence.com/

Comments

1. Charles Steiner - November 29, 2019

Ton2u wrote: “Choosing to leave the FOF involves ostracism and an internalized stigma (damnation and food for the moon as a “life person”)”

These words touched a chord. In my journey after choosing to leave the FOF, well aware that I still had all this programming inside me that I still believed in (sort of, mostly), particularly about being food for the moon and the earth being the stomach of the universe, a pain factory as it were, I arranged an appointment with a Jungian therapist who listened to what told her about my FOF ideas, and she said, “Ohh! You must feel so cold and so alone. Here, come pet my golden retriever.” Her dog was lying on the floor by her armchair. She felt that petting her dog might warm me up and release some positive emotional energy. Needless to say, I never rescheduled. There was so much more involved than just “feeling good” for a moment.

2. Joey Virgo - November 29, 2019

I was interested as well in ton2u’s remarks at page 183 about ostracism, and I found a book at Amazon entitled “Shunnng: A Survival Guide” by Bonnie Zieman. One reviewer of this book described being shunned as “disfellowshipped.”

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R92SX0CNJ2FUG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1983942375

A more extensive summary of the book’s contents is available at Alibris.com

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?keyword=Shunned%3A+A+Survival+Guide&mtype=B&hs.x=0&hs.y=0&hs=Submit

3. WhaleRider - November 30, 2019

ton2u:
Thanks for the link on “Vampirism” above. It appears the author has traveled down a rabbit hole of sorts and paints a fairly dystopian view of modern society in general, but I enjoyed hearing all the quotes he uses to develop his ideas. It left me wondering..is he selling a silver bullet?

An argument could be made that the algorithms used in social media that promote disinformation and the brain hacking of computer games deployed to keep the user enthralled are vampiristic, too, and I shutter to think about how vulnerable we all are should Artificial Intelligence gets involved…if it hasn’t already.

I would’ve like to also hear about the other side of the equation, what conditions contribute to those who fall prey to the “vampire’s” erotic appeal. It takes two to tango, right?

On the other hand, I don’t believe that demonizing aspects of the human condition contributes to overall mental health, do you?

At the conclusion, the author suggests mental health professionals take on his perspective, but I don’t think it would be prudent or appropriate for a person suffering from a serious mental health condition like paranoid schizophrenia to start hearing about “vampires” from their caregivers!

Charles Steiner:
Thank you for sharing your story. Part of what helped me cope with the feelings of abandonment when I defellowshipped was that my girlfriend at the time and I left together…and I immediately enrolled in a university.

It would appear that those whom leave the cult to mimic burton and start their own cult may also be unknowingly motivated by the same fear of abandonment.

With regard to your one therapy session, I wonder how the therapist would have responded had you returned for a second session and shared with her how you felt when she suggested you pet her dog…given the FOF history with dogs?

4. Charles Steiner - November 30, 2019

3. Whalerider

“With regard to your one therapy session, I wonder how the therapist would have responded had you returned for a second session and shared with her how you felt when she suggested you pet her dog…given the FOF history with dogs?”

When I left the FOF I was completely ignorant of its history with dogs. Had I returned for another appointment with the therapist, I’m sure there would have been a contretemps. In my experience with therapists, and I’ve seen many over the years for longer and shorter periods, successfully and unsuccessfully at different turns, both before and after the FOF, conflicts between client and therapist are, in general, cul-de-sacs.

In FOF language, I received from her a Jack of Hearts response to something that related to my negative half of the King of Hearts as well as the negative half of the Queen while completely ignoring my intellectual center altogether. I couldn’t conceive of anything better coming from her. She wasn’t an experienced therapist; she was just starting her own practice.

Thanks for telling me about your girlfriend at the time of your exodus. No doubt her presence helped you in taking the edge off the abandonment you felt and avoiding its sting to a large degree. That’s what intimacy is designed to do and why, in part, it’s so valuable.

5. ton2u - November 30, 2019

Whalerider @ 3

A few thoughts – the link I posted, and in general, links I post here are not necessarily meant as an absolute or all-encompassing endorsement of the views and opining expressed therein.

IMO, and I think you would agree, that it’s important to keep an open mind when considering various points of view. Some opinions might resonate with truth, others not so much – even when coming from the same speaker.

In listening to the Tsarion monologue it strikes me that he tends to approach topics from the “negative halves of centers” as we used to say – and I’m sure he has his own “issues” and personal history to work through. His critique of social ills is almost all criticism and without some positive/ constructive suggestions to balance the critical point of view, it does come off as a more negative approach than it might otherwise be… that doesn’t mean as a critique it is completely without valid insights… IMO.

I don’t know that I would call him a “health professional” and I would hope that any health professional who might listen to his social critique, if any do, would take it with the proverbial grain of salt, and do their own balancing their own ‘seasoning’ when considering the points of view expressed.

That being said, I happened to be listening to parts of the Tsarion link when I read your post referring to “pure evil” on the previous page… and he begins the monologue by talking about concepts surrounding “evil” so I thought it was somewhat ‘timely’ in relation to your post… and with his point of view influenced by a Jungian perspective, I thought it might be of interest here for some folks… or not.

The reference to ‘psychic’ or psychological or emotional or ‘spiritual’ vampirism, can, I think, be appropriately applied to the parasite that is burton… (instead of blood he feeds on semen).

In the future I should probably include with the links I post a disclaimer… something like: “posting the link does not necessarily represent my endorsement of all the views expressed therein – the opinions expressed are for your consideration… or not.”

6. amesgilbert1 - November 30, 2019

More of the Burton nonsense (continued from #94 on the previous page 183) in the latest issue of “The Apollo Miracle”, Volume 7, #46), edited by Judith Grace.

(referring to a grainy picture of a whitish smear on the black asphalt) : Burton comments, “A helicopter circling above the scene of the crash took this close–up image of the point of contact, where the white paint of Peter’s plane left an impression on the road. This, the last moment of impact for Peter, shows a bird taking flight, moving upwards, from left to right.”

• “Peter said eight words to the air traffic controller before he crashed: “We need to return to the field, sir.” We need to return to the Elysian fields—Paradise. Peter will come back one more time. Influence C already know which role he will play in his ninth life. It is possible that some of you will be recycled back into Apollo. Between Leonardo and me there were about 500 years, between Rembrandt and Gérôme a few hundred, and between Sasha and Goethe, 151 years. So it can happen. The week after I said that some of you will return to this galaxy, some in other galaxies, we saw an advertisement saying “Be ready 4 the next Galaxy.” By transforming shocks like Peter’s death, we are definitely getting ready. We do not know how much time there is between galaxies hosting schools. There may be no time. Perhaps when one is finished, a prehistoric school starts somewhere else. So there actually may be no time. That is a new thought for us. Or there may be an empty space. I think that there may be no time. They have already determined the next galaxy.”

• “This is a photo taken on August 6 of Peter sitting outside his home at Apollo. His home is very special. It has the feeling of an authentic Florentine villa. There are different options for his house, but I think that we may purchase it and make it an Italian center of learning for our ark. Of course, Italy is deeper than France, but with Frenchtown Road nearby, the French influence is what Influence C want for the Gallery. French is good, but we will speak Italian, which is the deepest. I will be a lot quieter if I am speaking Italian! We may have different quarters in the city—a French quarter, an Italian quarter, a German quarter, an English quarter.”

• “This is a nice picture of Peter. His identity is there. The empty chair beside him looks like his ninth life awaiting him. The four cypress trees making an empty square are a nice omen. The tree on the left shows the struggle of the magicians. The feathery tree is evil eye. Influence C create these shocks. Italian objects, such as the two Renaissance angels and the Renaissance frames in the Gallery, will go to Peter’s house. It will be authentic. The sunglasses on his solar plexus make a square. It is a modern message. I said last night, “You do not know how much you love a person until he dies.” You do not quite realize it. The “more” in Morrow is interesting. It means one more life.”

• “Silvia Fassi stepped off a plane from Philadelphia and her husband Rolando Altamirano was there to meet her. He advised her about Peter’s death and then they saw this license plate (photo showing plate inserted here) saying “SWAN777.” This refers to the three students who just completed their roles: Dieter in his seventh life and John Stubbs and Peter Morrow in their eighth lives. The three of them are destined to be conscious and immortal. They are already conscious. The number 777 is also the number of angels that each galaxy produces. Something wonderful occurred at last Sunday’s lunch. I advised students that I was aware that Influence C were speaking through me. Then I said, “Let us say that 750 angels have been produced on the earth, Alex being number 750. That leaves twenty-seven angels for our school and for what follows us to produce over a long period of time.” Sasha advised me that the date of the lunch was October 27 and that the Absolute came to visit us for the first time on June 27.”

Lastly, some more examples of the “uncreated light” meme Robert Earl Burton is apparently big on nowadays. These are selected from an entire page of random Burtonisms spewed over three meetings, and, as usual, there is no context for any of them (like the ‘Daily Cards’ of yore):
• “Uncreated light transcends the system.”
• “The Master is the divine presence of uncreated light without the game.”
• “With uncreated light, World 6 and World 12 do not need a protective shield—the nine of hearts. They can handle it themselves.”
• “The highest form of uncreated light is shared collective presence.”

O.K., that is about all Ames can stand, just imagine a few dozen more random babblings, mix thoroughly, and you’ll have a good approximation of the rest of the twenty–five pages!

7. WhaleRider - November 30, 2019

Charles Steiner:
Thanks for the clarification. Just curious, were you in the FOF during the time Haven referred to followers as “dogs”?

When you think about it, the idea that “the moon is eating our souls” doesn’t appear to be originating from the so-called, “kings of centers” either. Talk about cul-de-sacs! Ever attempt to dissuade someone intellectually about a delusional belief?

If you wouldn’t mind indulging me, what is it exactly that you thought or felt you needed (in layman’s terms please) instead of an offer to be comforted by an animal who has contributed such a great deal to our survival as a species on the planet as a loyal and faithful partner?

Looking back, what would you rather she had done or said to a person in your circumstance?

Here’s what I now think of being on the moon:

ton2u:
Thanks for the disclaimer, and I certainly agree with keeping an open mind: I listened to all two hours of the lecture. Please understand that my critique was of the author, not you. I get the timeliness of the link, and appreciate your thoughtfulness.

The problem with his approach, IMO, is that sometimes people take metaphors literally, which can be dehumanizing, IMO. As you know, that’s exactly how propaganda and racism works it’s way into our unconscious.

The question remains…why do vampires have such an erotic appeal to some?

Aren’t we mirroring burton’s devaluing of “life people” when we call him names? Doesn’t the attempt to dehumanize burton only serve to make followers more entrenched in their delusions?

The desire to give burton “a taste of his own medicine” is sadistic, IMO.

8. Charles Steiner - November 30, 2019

7. Whalerider

Thanks. If or when Girard Haven referred to students as “dogs” I wasn’t privy to that — until today. Girard Haven was just another older, fairly well respected student in my day. I never knew of such a thing then. When did he say such a thing? I left in late 1982.

I never subscribed to any idea of the moon eating our souls nor did I ever hear anyone talk of this in the FOF when I was a member.

The idea I remember being taught by reading Ouspensky was that we were food for the moon when we experienced uncontrolled negativity and acted on it. In a phrase, negativity wastes energy that might better be used for self-development. I don’t find that idea particularly delusional, and it’s really another way of stating what the Roman Stoics had already said: stay calm and use reason to be more human and enlightened.

And the world being the stomach of the universe was a Gurdjieffian metaphor for what the ancient Mesopotamians felt about life: survival is difficult, hard and painful and then you die, only made somewhat livable by beer. Schopenhauer, who lived before Gurdjieff, had a similar, pessimistic idea about life. For him, as for Gurdjieff, life was a pain factory.

This is not a delusional notion. The South African philosopher David Benatar subscribes to this viewpoint as well, asserting that life is extremely painful (like acids in the stomach corroding and tearing away at matter) and problematic — in his books “Better Never To Have Been” and “The Human Predicament.”

To indulge you in your curiosity, at the time, what I felt I needed most was a good bullshit detector about reality and/or my ability to deal with it. You know, Ayn Rand said, “You can avoid reality but you can’t avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.” Well, I wanted someone to professionally assess where I was on this issue: how much of what I was thinking was invested in avoiding reality or substituting a fantasy for reality and how much of what I was thinking and feeling was indeed a viewpoint rooted in actual living, however little people seemed to want to know about it.

I only got my answers to this concern only through time, through wide reading and questioning and assessing, largely on my own.

Therapists, in general, are preachers of optimism. There always is a wonderful rainbow at the end of every downpour of sorrow for them. That’s their MO. There is no foundation for it; it just is. The Candyman can. They don’t necessarily deal in reality as a whole and aren’t trained to be, not in historical, sociological, philosophical or political realities. It’s too bad really.

And Tsarion is a black whole — cultishly alluring but going nowhere IMHO: a huge distraction.

9. ton2u - November 30, 2019

A quick google search of erotic appeal of vampires produces a vast amount of information on the subject… but I wasn’t thinking in terms of the erotic when applying the descriptor of “vampirism” to burton – that’s an inference you make. In the particular case of burton,”vampirism” is meant as a descriptor of a type of parasitic behavior… I think you might agree that burton’s behavior is parasitic? Vampiristic can be more or less interchangeable with parasitic and as a description it fits in this individual case IMO.

As far as getting more broadly into taking metaphors literally, propaganda, racism and etc, that may be an accurate generalized observation by you but that’s getting pretty far afield… I don’t think a generalized approach applies in the specific case of burton’s behavior.

There are no doubt more “scientific” psychological descriptions of burton’s behavior – malignant narcissist is no doubt covered in the current DSM, even if “vampirism” is not, but I think vampirism as a description of the behavior makes the point, if crudely.

I agree that the “taste of his own medicine” is no answer or solution… “an eye for an eye leaves the world blind” – personally I couldn’t offer his own medicine even if I wanted to, it’s not in my DNA, that’s not what this is about… but If my choice of a description sounds like “demonizing” this particular individual… so be it. I think of it as a warning to steer clear.

IMO

10. Joey Virgo - November 30, 2019

6. Amesgilbert1

Thanks for the sneak-peek at the latest issue of “The Apollo Miracle.”

I found your selection of excerpts entertaining and oddly nostalgic, the end result being, for me, that I felt a bit confused.

Some report that REB is addled as a result of his heart attack and thus needs someone to speak for him. Is this really true? What’s fake? What’s true?

If REB wrote or said these selections, then he seems to be as strong as ever in spinning a whole universe out of a mere web of words and hasn’t changed a whole lot in his magical-mystery-tour vision since the beginning of the FOF. I mean, all that talk about Mr. Morrow returning and coming to his 9th life, for one, is vintage FOF BS from the 1970s and 1980s with REB.

These excerpts aren’t exactly sayings from a man who does not know what he’s saying or doing. They’re perfectly coherent if sometimes weird, superstitious or fantastic.

11. amesgilbert1 - November 30, 2019

Joey Virgo, there is a simple reason the words in the written propaganda that circulates do not match the videos of meetings and such (many links to which have been posted here in past pages, or you can go over to Tim’s site and root around for examples). And that reason is, Burton’s written words are very heavily edited. The main editor and producer of “The Apollo Miracle” is Judith Grace, but I’d bet that she had plenty of help.

I personally came across the phenomenon of editing (‘clarifying’) when I noticed that the words spoken in meetings (I wrote in shorthand and made notes for myself) did not match those in the Renaissance Journals (which started in 1978, IIRC). So, I made enquiries and found out that Linda Kaplan consistently ‘improved’ the words, and even re–interpreted them to an extent that sometimes made them unrecognizable. Later, Burton and she and others inserted whole paragraphs at a time when necessary to make some point. All for the noblest of reasons, of course. And, I never heard anyone objecting to their ‘angles’ being improved!

Nowadays there is a whole gang of folks who continue the good work, like Judith Grace. And of course, in parallel, there are the ever–ready ‘older students’ with decades of experience, professional ‘explainers’ like Girard Haven, always able to lend meaning and eloquence to anything Burton says, whether in terms of the now nearly defunct Fourth Way, or in its time, The Sequence, or whatever is the current fashion. In fact, there are whole books of such explanations and re–interpretations written by followers such as Girard, Guinevere, Gilbert Moore, and many more, in addition to the gems supposedly written by Burton himself.

12. WhaleRider - November 30, 2019

ton2u:
I disagree that burton’s behavior is parasitic, because it negates the symbiosis that occurs in the guru-follower relationship…they feed off each other.

A parasite has nothing to offer it’s host, and burton seems to provide his followers with a great deal, although of questionable value in the minds of those whom have left.

Were any other organism made aware of a parasite thriving in the folds of its coat, it would naturally want to shake it off, unless the relationship fulfills some need, like cleaning or grooming or protection.

My apologies, my question was rhetorical and really directed at the author. I should have made that clear.

I use the terms “erotic relationship” not necessarily in the literal sense, although burton has certainly exploited it in his followers, but to refer to the human desire (or need) to have an intimate, close relationship with the greater Self.

Psychologists are trained to be conscious and respectful of that need in their clients, mindful of the imbalance of power, and consequently not sleep with them, due to the damage it causes to both.

A deep relationship with the Self can empower one, much in the same way that burton offers immortality to his followers and not unlike the immortality and superhuman powers a mythological vampire offers to his or her victims in exchange for their life force.

It is all to apparent in those whom have left the cult that the empowerment that burton provides his followers can be taken away at a moment’s notice, subject to his whims, having given him that power over them to kick them out, unless they become “vampires” like him on the prowl for more unsuspecting victims.

I think we can agree that burton’s dinners are quite intimate affairs, apparently fulfilling this need of his followers to be closer to “the source” so to speak, at least temporarily, even for those whom he doesn’t sexually abuse.

13. amesgilbert1 - November 30, 2019

Ton2u, I thank you for your many valuable contributions to the discussion over the entire lifetime of this blog. I have never thought that your suggestions for outside reading/viewing are necessarily congruent with your own personal opinion. I for one welcome those suggestions for the thoughtful and relevant invitations to widen my viewpoint and re–examine my thinking that they are. Thank you so much for taking the time and making those efforts for over a dozen years and more.

14. amesgilbert1 - November 30, 2019

Joey, thanks for pointing out the book, “Shunning: A Survival Guide” by Bonnie Zieman. Seems like a very valuable resource. I wish that had been available when I left! In fact, rather before I left, since knowing I was going to be thoroughly shunned certainly made me more afraid to make the jump.

I’ve just downloaded a Kindle version of that book ($7.99), and another one by her, called, “Cracking the Cult Code for Therapists: What Every Cult Victim Wants Their Therapist to Know” ($5.99), which I’m sure Charles Steiner would have found useful in his time—let alone the therapist he sought out, mentioned in his post above.

In the ‘Biography’ part of the Amazon page, Bonnie Z. shares that she was part of the Jehovah’s Witness cult (which practices shunning) for thirty years, that she left and pursued the education she had been denied, and in time became a licensed psycotherapist. So, it seems she would definitely know whereof she speaks, and I’m looking forward to learning more from both books, which are recently published and very current.

And, she has a website (bonniezieman.com) which I’ve not yet explored…

15. Joey Virgo - November 30, 2019

11 and 14. amesgilbert1

Thank you for explaining what’s false and what’s true regarding “The Apollo Miracle.” Your explanation makes complete, logical sense.

And thank you for following through with Bonnie Zieman’s book and teaching me more about her and her work.

I resonated with what I read on shunning through its summary last night, and there’s a YouTube video, too,I had found about shunning from or by the Jehovah Witness group; it triggered my interest in the whole concept of shunning and led me to find Bonnie’s book on Amazon.

Ostracism, shunning, and exile are all synonyms, but have shades of different meanings as well. (The San Francisco Main Library prefers the use of “exile” to either shunning or ostracism, oddly.)

Years ago I discovered a book entitled “altogether elsewhere: writers on exile,” edited by Marc Robinson, which helped me a little bit deal with my own exile from the FOF. It better served, however, more as a talisman or lucky rabbit’s foot – just knowing my experience wasn’t unique and the book was filled with examples like mine. Bonnie’s book, indeed, would have been more useful.

The trouble with the book for me was that most of the exiles discussed in it were political and there was too much distant for me trying to identify, say, with Ovid who also suffered for many years, having been banished to Romania from Rome — unable to speak the language or develop any sense of community with complete strangers. (He managed to write the Metamorphosis, however, while in exile.)

I’m going to follow your lead and do more research on the author and her books.

P.S. I haven’t listened to it yet but I just discovered Bonnie Zieman talking about “Cracking the Cult Code for Therapists” on YouTube:

16. John Harmer - November 30, 2019

#6 Thank you Ames for posting those fantastical quotes from Burton. Reading them they made me laugh, and that is enjoyable and possibly even therapeutic in itself. If someone believes he is as advanced as he says he is, I can well imagine what a buzz it is hearing these ideas. Cult Survivor said he thought only a fraction of the membership really buys into these grandiose ideas, because the main glue for most is the social aspect. Friends and family. Sounds likely I must say.
However after enjoying how bat shit crazy he sounds, I still find myself puzzling over whether he himself believes these words as he is saying them. Nearly all the times I met him I thought he believed them himself, but I have no special ability to see through liars. It occurs to me now, that he may not believe them. Maybe he really likes fooling everyone, and is laughing inside about how he has people lapping up his concocted fantasies. I guess I’ll never know for sure, unless by some miracle he turns a corner and decides to fess up to having been a master deceiver all along before he dies – and I very much doubt that will happen.
I remember on one occasion in the London Centre Stella Wirk was visiting and recounting the early days of the school. She said that someone had asked Burton (or “Robert”, in that special respectful tone of voice) whether he was making it all up. And he said “No, but that is what I would say either way isn’t it?” Which made us all laugh at the time.

17. Insider - November 30, 2019

16. John Harmer

Burton making it all up, or believing it himself?

That’s the $614,000 question. (After the mid-50s game show, “$64,000 question,” adjusted for inflation.)

Or maybe a combination of both: At first he made it all up, or borrowed from Horn, but then, over the years with endless repetition, began believing it. Sort of like building his own prison.

I wonder if Ocean Tiger is out there and can share any insights from having been close to Burton fairly recently.

18. Cult Survivor - December 1, 2019

16. John Harmer & 17. Insider

Burton making it all up, or believing it himself?

A close friend of mine that was part of REB’s entourage for a couple of years told me that REB says some pretty crazy stuff when he is alone with his “friends”. Most of this material is never released to the school — my theory is that REB does that for his entourage to feel special.

Here are some examples, according to my friend:

– “Our sun eats 7 conscious beings per century”
– “John F. Kennedy was becoming a man number 5 so Influence C had to get rid of him”
– “Rodney Collin thought he had my role — when he realized he was wrong he immolated himself”

REB has to be making it all up.

19. ton2u - December 1, 2019

Ames @13

Thanks for the supportive words… coming from you that means a lot – much respect to you and for your insight-filled contributions here ! (has it really been a dozen years ?! where does the time go?).

Whalerider @ 12

Sounds like your viewpoint about burton is shifting, softening with the years, maybe you’re “mellowing with age ? So you don’t consider burton’s behavior parasitic ? We’ll just have to disagree about that.

What he “offers” his “students” depends upon, relies on, and is based upon, the ‘student’ literally buying into his delusion. One need only refer to Ames’ post @ 6 on this page to see evidence of the outward manifestation of burton’s delusional thinking in the continuing process of infecting his followers.

By adopting or adapting to the delusion, the student becomes delusional him/herself. Infection by a mind-virus is what the follower gets from ‘guru’ bob. Reciprocity in the ‘relationship’ is based in delusion – if a ’student’ believes s/he is benefitting by following burton, that’s at the essence of the delusion. A perspective from outside of this particular “guru-follower relationship” (i.e. shared delusion), allows one to see it for what it is… while under the influence of the spell that’s not possible.

I was once under this spell, I believed in burton’s delusions of grandeur, his omnipotence… by believing in and living within this delusional bubble, by becoming part of the delusion, I was, by association, a small part of the promise of grandeur and omnipotence, of which, he professed to be sole arbiter on the planet… by participating in the delusion I was one of the ‘chosen few’ to share in this mission to save culture while the rest of the human race self-destructed. Looking back at it I can’t believe how gullible and naive I was, how this lead to years of exploitation… and worse.

I was asked by “teacher” to move into what was then called the Blake Cottage – I did so dutifully, but when I realized what was up there, that it was a crash-pad for burton’s harem, I moved out and re-united with my girlfriend. She soon became pregnant, expecting a child, we married there in a small ceremony at “Renaissance.” But burton wasn’t done with me… he called me in and said the child had to be aborted – the “reason” being that the child would be born too soon to be included on the “ark.” This was late ’82 and his rationale had to do with the prediction of “armageddon” in 1984… the first in a long succession of failed predictions. So with much wailing and gnashing of teeth by both my then-wife and I, and with peer-pressure exerted by burton’s flying monkeys, the child was aborted.

While in the midst of that horror-show I had an inkling of what the “task” of aborting the child was really about, that it had nothing to do with an “ark of humanity”, that it was really about burton being spurned by an “object of desire.” But I wasn’t able to stand-up for myself and my wife and so I became part of an inhumane act which was all about burton’s jealous vendetta – I’d rejected burton so this was his revenge. To me, this still exists as a monstrous act, and I was part of it because I believed a delusion… that’s my fault.

Waking from the spell was painful, but I suppose the pain was necessary – I could no longer share in the delusion. I left the FOF, in ’83, jumping ship before the predicted end of the world…

20. WhaleRider - December 1, 2019

ton2u:
I’m sad to hear your story again. Luckily you had the good sense to move out much quicker than I did. I’d have to sneak out of the “Academy” to be with my girlfriend in order to avoid being “on duty” that night. burton never asked where I was.

After I left the FOF my girlfriend at the time and I got pregnant, too, and we decided, sadly and at my urging, to carry on the FOF legacy and abort. I can empathize with your pain.

I wouldn’t say my views of burton have softened, in an effort to own my projections I’d say my understanding of the guru-follower relationship is deepening.

Focusing on only one side of the dynamic, burton’s apparent pathology, negates the dyad that allows him to exist, IMO.

By projecting my shadow side onto him, I negate an aspect of myself and continue his legacy of self harm as outlined in the lecture you provided.

I do think there is a shared delusional system at play, but as we are reading now, it seems many followers might not be fully invested in the delusional thinking so apparent in his language pattern, yet stay on anyway. Why? The institutional aspect of the FOF is both fulfilling a need for some and at the same time making it difficult for them to leave.

I was immersed in the delusional system of the fourth way long before I met burton from which it took awhile longer after I left for me to fully divest. I left believing I could duplicate what burton had done in life without creating a cult following because having spent time close to him, I saw that it was his chosen role that defined him. I didn’t witness him making any special efforts to “remember himself”, other than assuming the persona of someone who had “awakened”.

When I asked him directly at lunch one day how to sustain the so-called “state of awakening”, he couldn’t give me a clear example other than creating little momentary shocks for himself, which he demonstrated for me by slipping a wine cork under the cuff of his shirt. (At that time there was no talk of kissing the feet of the Absolute..)

So I chose professions that required more self awareness than digging ditches or making widgets, coupled with boundaries that I was required to respect.

I think that I was only truly free of burton’s spell when I realized my guru was within, resurrecting the guru-follower internally as I began deciphering the “crazy wisdom“ of my dreams. “Ideas of reference”, became personal “synchronicity” and no longer disembodied spirits communicating to me from beyond the grave, for example.

I imagine burton regards some of his followers as “parasitic”, too, which is one reason he periodically purges his ranks, reinforcing compliance and dependency in those who stay, sadistically keeping them in the dark about themselves. Isn’t that emblematic of his lack of compassion for “the other”?

21. WhaleRider - December 1, 2019

Charles Steiner:
“The idea I remember being taught by reading Ouspensky was that we were food for the moon when we experienced uncontrolled negativity and acted on it. In a phrase, negativity wastes energy that might better be used for self-development. I don’t find that idea particularly delusional, and it’s really another way of stating what the Roman Stoics had already said: stay calm and use reason to be more human and enlightened.

Ah, but the Roman Stoics didn’t need to externalize a literal “sinister being” like the moon to make their point about reasoned self control. That’s the delusional part.

Sure life is corrosive, but love is not, and “machines” are incapable of love. So are you a man or a machine?

Upon reading burton’s quotes Ames so dutifully provided, I am struck by the fact that although burton claims to be promoting greater “consciousness” aka “self-awareness” in his followers, the so called “shocks” he supposedly receives from “c-influence” seem to have less to do with creating self-awareness in his audience and more to do with creating a state of wonderment and awe around his justification of his role as a “seer” of the outside presence of spirits and interpreter of their supposed motivations. And in a state of wonderment and awe an individual can be manipulated into believing just about anything.

The air tightness of his delusional system, so obviously reliant upon his ideas of reference, necessitates that he interpret everything as a verifabrication that this “other world”, that is, the world of disembodied spirits exists “out there”, separate from the Self.

So for him and for his followers, that for which they strive is a holy grail, something outside the Self, which of course like the novelty of any shiny new material object, the “divine presence” they seek falls through their fingers the tighter they attempt to grasp it, perpetuating a state disempowerment, IMO

22. WhaleRider - December 1, 2019

Cult Survivor:
“John F. Kennedy was becoming a man number 5 so Influence C had to get rid of him”
– “Rodney Collin thought he had my role — when he realized he was wrong he immolated himself”.

To me this is an example of burton projecting his need to dominate and control his followers in order to reinforce compliance and dependency….due in part because he is so dependent upon them.

It’s an implicit warning to any of his followers who attempt to challenge him and usurp his role. You either get “removed” by what “c-influence makes burton do” to his followers or you jump ship yourself, either way it’s “the other” who was “wrong” or “mistaken”.

23. ton2u - December 1, 2019

Whalerider,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply – it clarifies your point of view vis a vis the guru / follower dynamic. Digesting this “encounter” requires understanding one’s own culpability and ‘role’ in the situation. I appreciate that and think I’ve done – and maybe not being completely finished with it, I continue to do that work… I’ll add, part of the equation is finding a way to self-forgiveness… seeing clearly one’s own part in the situation and to put it into the context of a lifetime of personal experience and learning.

For those who continue to follow him, I imagine, as he once did for me, that burton serves as the “idol” who presents the right combination of elements to serve as a “screen” for his little group of followers to project their “idealized” fantasy of what a ‘guru’ or ‘enlightened being’ might embody. He plays on those fantasies, relies on these types of projections, it’s what sustains his game… I would say if he were truly, to any degree “enlightened,” he would work to dispel the illusions of those who project their ideals upon him… he would help people to withdraw these projections, help his followers to see the source of projections, help to find the ‘inner-guru.’

No, he does just the opposite, claims omnipotent powers, and followers go along with the charade because of their projections… Instead of the absolute nonsense and drivel burton has been spewing these many years, he could have taken a different approach to his “teaching” – but he didn’t, and he doesn’t, because his sustenance depends upon maintaining the idealized projections of his followers, that’s the game.

After waking from the spell of an idealized god-man projected out there in the flesh, I hear you, the way to fulfillment is naturally to find a way to the ‘inner-guru.’ Withdrawing idealized “positive” projections is part and parcel of waking from the spell…. the flip side, which is what you’re talking about, is projecting some notion of “absolute evil” onto what once served as the screen for idealized positive projections…. O.k. yes I understand… but…

Yes there’s a ‘but’ to consider… in the process of withdrawing projections, roles and relationships may become clarified, personal culpability / responsibility acknowledged, but that does not excuse the actual behavior in question on the part of “the other.” Sure, you, me, we all played into it to some degree or another, but the set-up was in place to lure the naive, the idealists, seekers, the susceptible… the “set-up” is apparently still in operation and the other party in this case is not aware of, and has never acknowledged his own culpability in his actions towards others who happen to become ensnared in the set-up.

So there’s this little blog where some folks can commiserate over the follies of their misspent youth and by sharing their cautionary tales, maybe help warn others who happen to land here, help a seeker to avoid the set-up. With that in mind, and beyond simple catharsis and personal process, I like to think there is a place for calling out burton for his role in the game he’s playing – “calling a spade a spade” – while being aware of one’s own culpability… I never claimed or even implied he’s the embodiment of “pure evil” but for too long he’s been playing a game with negative consequences for others… something he isn’t aware of, or doesn’t care about, or both.

24. ton2u - December 1, 2019

re:
I never claimed or even implied he’s the embodiment of “pure evil” –

I do think he’s sick though… and because he doesn’t realize it, he continues to foster and spread sickness in others.

25. Charles Steiner - December 1, 2019

21. Whalerider

“Ah, but the Roman Stoics didn’t need to externalize a literal “sinister being” like the moon to make their point about reasoned self control. That’s the delusional part.

Sure life is corrosive, but love is not, and “machines” are incapable of love. So are you a man or a machine?”

This is just laughable delusional projection and argumentativeness from a petulant child that thinks Hallmark card sentiment is profound and abject fear critical thinking.

26. WhaleRider - December 1, 2019

ton2u:
Again, I apologize if my post insinuated that you thought burton was “pure evil”, although that viewpoint has been expressed here before.

And a discussion of the “guru-follower” relationship by no means diminishes burton’s culpability for his abuse of power.

Charles Steiner:
Your defensive ad hominem attack only displays how difficult it is to challenge a person’s closely held delusional beliefs.

27. Charles Steiner - December 1, 2019

26. WhaleRider

“Your defensive ad hominem attack . . . ”

Oh, look! He’s back! As predictable as a – machine? LOL.

You characterize my comment as an ad hominem attack, but first you need to prove I attacked you and secondly you need to prove that you even had an argument that I avoided attacking. I merely attacked your ideas and opinions, not you. You had no argument.

You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about..

You also don’t know anything about Ouspensky’s teaching about the moon. If the moon was the literal sinister being you deludedly claim it was in the Fellowship, Ouspensky never would have advised his students to “create moon in yourselves.”

You failed to recognize that both Gurdjieff and Ouspensky claimed the 4th Way was “fragments of an unknown teaching.” There is and was much more to the moon than you’ve ever dreamt of in the Fourth Way version you got from Burton, but why bother trying to understand or being skeptical about your own delusional conclusions when you can simply use this website to posture and convict while deceiving the ignorant, lazy and dumb that you are “being logical,” eh?

You are also ignorant about the Stoics and the moon. I hadn’t wanted to bother with your false claim on the first round to take your silly comments seriously but I’ll finish it up here. The moon goddess Luna was very much a part of the Roman belief system and of the Stoics. Many times Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus mentioned the gods, and one of the was Luna. The Stoics were not atheists, and for all their rationality, they gave to religion its due.

Please note that your earlier merely argumentative, insubstantial “argument” included the gross common fallacy of the false alternative, pretending that choosing between man and “machine” was a valid one. Your claim was laughable – for one who supposedly thinks he knows logic or knows what a logical common fallacy is.

Insofar as your either/or thinking is involved in this earlier claim, there are more alternatives involved than just man or machine. And you want to argue but you don’t state your terms so as to make anyone know that you’re setting up an argument instead of merely stating pugnacious opinion.

What did you mean by man? What kind of man? A man with free will? What is free will? A machine? What is a machine? If you think man can’t be compared to a machine? Why not? If you think man isn’t a machine, the evidence isn’t obvious so you need to set up your argument so that your terms are clear and mutually exclusive. You did not make an argument. You merely boasted a claim that was really just an opinion, a narrow viewpoint.

Determinism is very much a part of our lives, and by that biological fact, man is a machine. Man can be both a huMAN and a machine. He can be both. There’s no contradiction. But you set up a false dichotomy, which is a logical common fallacy, so you don’t know what you claim to know: how to argue and be logical.

But you’re right, finishing out your earlier comment cited at the start of my commenting, “. . . how difficult it is to challenge a person’s closely held delusional beliefs.”

Your pseudo-arguments and continuing attacks on me illustrate that point very well. I couldn’t have said it better.

28. John Harmer - December 1, 2019

#27 uh oh

29. Charles Steiner - December 1, 2019

28. John Harmer.

That’s a non-sequitur. Mere syllables. What’s up, buddy?

30. John Harmer - December 1, 2019

#29 I was expressing my worry that you were going to take a lot of space ranting at Whalerider. It was an attempt to lighten the mood which, as with many of my projects, may not have come off.

31. John Harmer - December 1, 2019

#29 I was expressing my worry that you were going to take up a lot of space ranting at Whalerider. It was an attempt at humour.

32. Joey Virgo - December 1, 2019

@John Harmer.

I was thinking of you recently and our earlier “debate” or discussion and our differing opinions regarding the moon and whether or not there’s scientific evidence for the moon’s influence.

At the time, I was debating with you, playing Devil’s Advocate for the position that there was indeed good reason to assert the moon’s influence on people while you took the opposite position and briefly cited an experiment where some researchers declared they had invalidated that hypothesis while observing patients in the emergency room during a full moon.

Like you, I have tended to favor a scientific explanation over anything mythical or superstitious, but just to see whether or not I could defend my thesis, I debated you and tried to poke holes in your citation if not with your position just for the sake of what might be found or discovered thereby.

I found the debate instructive in many ways, but one thing I had to cop to and didn’t do so with you at the time was that I had never read a single scientific article or book trashing the moon’s influence on people or anything in support of the moon’s influence, so I thought I’d remedy that problem of ignorance and read the only book I know exists on the subject of scientific experiments done that supports the influence of the moon on people and that book is “The Lunar Effect: Biological Tides and Human Emotons” by psychiatrist and doctor Arnold L. Lieber (1976)

Just to get to the main point, there is indeed (some) scientific evidence for the moon’s influence, but the author points up that how the research or experiment is conducted is very important and can distort the outcome of any study. One factor he mentions is longitude and latitude. He performed very concrete and limited experiments in emergency rooms both in Ohio and in Florida and found the Full Moon effects do not match simply because of differing latitudes — by as much as three days — between Ohio and Florida. The facts show the influence is there but not on the exact same day of the full moon for each. That was a curious finding.

But the author goes on to list the various ways in which the moon’s influence can be distorted and needs to be calculated for. Some of those things are whether the individual is bipolar and neurotic or healthy. Other things have to do with our own biological mechanism and energy fields or hertzes as well as interference from magnetic fields in the area where people live, etc. He says these things can be calculated for and studied but this involves some complex analyses and very refined tools.

So, in a sense, the book wasn’t definitive in its answer, but did claim that some evidence does exist for the moon’s influence. He ends with a hope that in the future scientists might develop a cosmobiology that takes in all aspects of the our cosmic biological life.

I thought I’d share this information with you since you were trying to put out the scientific basis for your position and wanted to help other students get rid of mere superstition and belief incurred from contact with the great pervert REB.

33. Charles Steiner - December 1, 2019

31. John Harmer

I didn’t get the joke, but thanks for the explanation and the attempt to lighten up the blog.

34. brucelevy - December 1, 2019

19. ton2u

I remember. I got in some trouble with RB for personally calling him out on this bullshit. I was pretty upset that your ex went along with that crap. I remember how painful it was. It was pretty much my end of being one of RB’s flying monkeys. I moved out of the ‘boy cottage” around that time.

35. John Harmer - December 1, 2019

#32 Joey Virgo thanks for that. I will look at that study, I don’t remember seeing it before. I may be wrong, maybe there is a lunar influence, I’ve been wrong before. But I still feel that I saw confirmatory bias in action among students on this topic. I felt it was almost a rite of passage, to have verified the lunar influence, onto stage 2 of being a new student once that had been achieved.

36. Joey Virgo - December 1, 2019

35. John Harmer

“I saw confirmatory bias in action among students on this topic. I felt it was almost a rite of passage, to have verified the lunar influence, onto stage 2 of being a new student once that had been achieved.”

I don’t doubt you at all, and I know from personal experience inside the FOF of whence you speak because it was really easy to go along with the idea of “verification” without really doing that work. It never became our task to interrogate these confirmatory biases from other students because there was little room for scientific investigation or honesty. Fake it until you make, I believe, was the go-with-the-flow game for many in the FOF.

I like your comments, observations, and memories of FOF students and events because what you write is really fresh and alive in some special way that makes reading your insights extremely vivid to me. I daresay you really where THERE and your experience was deep.

Inauthentic students of the Fourth Way were many in the FOF. More than the authentic ones. All the authentic ones left – long ago.

37. WhaleRider - December 1, 2019

Charles Steiner:
“The idea I remember being taught by reading Ouspensky was that we were food for the moon when we experienced uncontrolled negativity and acted on it. In a phrase, negativity wastes energy that might better be used for self-development. I don’t find that idea particularly delusional, and it’s really another way of stating what the Roman Stoics had already said: stay calm and use reason to be more human and enlightened.”

“Ah, but the Roman Stoics didn’t need to externalize a literal “sinister being” like the moon to make their point about reasoned self control. That’s the delusional part.”

You (not I) used the phrase “food for the moon”, commonly used in the FOF during my day.

Doesn’t sound fun, does it? Food for the moon. But I heard it over and over again. Don’t express negativity, don’t be food for the moon. Well I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be food for a shark either.

As I recall, living a ”stoic” life based on personal ethics and reason was never mentioned when Mr O wrote about evolving on the ray of creation, which is what this is all about, right? He was a mathematician and a mystic, not a philosopher. Accumulating enough hydrogens, that’s what mattered. Perceiving higher worlds. Remembering oneself. It didn’t matter if you slept with other men’s wives like Mr G did.

It was simple. If you don’t go up the ray, you go down. Up-good, down-bad. Moon=lower world. So yes, moon bad. Who wants to be stuck on the moon? Sounds cold and lonely. I’d want my dog to keep me company. Better to be good, move up, otherwise bad things will happen. Don’t be food for the moon.

I don’t believe the Stoics were motivated in that manner. You do good, for the sake of doing good because that’s the reasonable thing to do, and not for the sake of not doing bad to avoid pain and suffering. In fact, they were beyond good and bad, pain or pleasure; for them it was all about reason, not fear of punishment or hope for a reward. Virtue for virtue’s sake only.

“Expressing negativity” as you call it, is an idea burton has weaponized and uses to shield himself from all criticism. That’s a whole other conversation, what constitutes negativity. I’m sure Mr O and Mr G shielded themselves from scrutiny that way too.

So Ok, I grant you that part of self development requires anger management, and yes, being reasonable leads to a more harmonious life with others, that’s certainly not delusional, but what does that have to do with the moon, really, or the ray of creation? That’s all nonsense, IMO, impossible to verify. Same with “creating a moon within”. How can you possibly verify that? I’ll stick with my inner guru. My guru shows me sometimes it’s ok to be negative, it makes me feel human.

IMO, at the very least, the stoics were agnostic, and I believe would have scoffed at the idea of being controlled by the moon, or any other god-like entity theoretically existing outside the bounds of reason. That was my point. The fourth way operates on the basis of dualism, awake=good, sleep=bad. You either remember yourself part of the time (followers) all of the time (guru) or not at all (everyone else).

Lastly, as you might gather, I have long ago abandoned the idea that “man is a machine”. I feel it is dehumanizing, and depersonalizing. Machines are inanimate.

38. brucelevy - December 2, 2019

Are you people out
of your fucking mind?

39. Charles Steiner - December 2, 2019

37, WhaleRider.

You have your own understanding of the FOF teaching and the Stoics. In my view, you’ve conflated FOF teachings with the teaching of Ouspensky and Gurdjieff, so you don’t have a necessary level of discernment here to see one as separate from the other, which I do see as separate. You can talk all you want about the Ray of Creation. I never mentioned it and I can’t claim to understand it. In my days in the FOF, everything for me was about verification. That was the sole idea I took quite literally. I tried hard not to pretend to understand things I couldn’t verify for myself. Your understanding of the Stoics is also very much your own. The Stoics were not agnostics (and they did not believe in doing good merely for the sake of doing good. That was Emmanuel Kant.

I understand your understanding of the moon as a sinister being eating you and of man as a machine from the FOF is completely literal and is therefore, rightly so, invalid on that basis, and your idea of man as a machine is unnecessarily degrading or dehumanizing if taken quite literally, but the plain facts are determinism is real and it’s part of our human condition. Science backs up this fact as well. (When Gurdjieff said man has very little wiggle room, like a violin in its case, he was referring to this determinism and lack of free will.) No one said you have to like it, but denial isn’t a realistic solution either.

I agree that REB weaponized the Fourth Way teaching, but my comments were not in relation to that or him but merely to certain ideas extracted from Ouspensky, not REB’s distorted and manipulative ideas. Lots of people came to the Fellowship after first having read a lot of Ouspensky and Gurdjieff and had hopes of practical application of their ideas. I was one of them. I did not sit at the teacher’s feet as a complete blank slate and expectantly drink in the poison — ever. Not to say that I didn’t get polluted and connived; I did, but that happened through my interactions with other fellow students.

We really do have separate viewpoints on these subjects. We each had a different experience of the FOF on the intellectual and informational plane. What we have in common is that we both shared the common lot in suffering deceit and abuse at the hands of REB for years, whether up close or at a distance, you perhaps more deeply than me. But viva la difference between us. We are not clones and I am not a clone of REB, as I suspect you may have been thinking. That’s done and over. Allow that difference to exist.

40. ton2u - December 2, 2019

Bruce @ 34

She wasn’t a willing participant in the procedure. She railed against it but she was coerced into having the abortion by the level of peer pressure exerted… and I was part of that pressure group – my role in it still haunts… I took too seriously the idea of following a “task” given by “teacher” and my role in aborting the child shows how delusional I was to follow orders coming from a delusional individual… all that crap about 1984 and armageddon, California falling into the ocean but sparing Oregon House, the mission to save culture from destruction, etc. Look, I’m not one of these “right to life” folks, I believe it’s a woman body and it’s her right to choose… but under the circumstances we found ourselves in, M had little choice but to go through with the abortion or to leave the “school.” She didn’t want to go through with it but felt she had no choice – it was traumatic for her…. she stayed in the school, I left and I lost track of her but I don’t think she ever had kids… maybe you know?

41. brucelevy - December 2, 2019

40. ton2u

I remember it all. It was painful all around. She eventually married Sean. I don’t think they had any children and he recently passed away. He was a very sweet person sucked into all the bullshit. I also remember all the pressure. Linda the c**t came after my girlfriend because I raised a lot of shit over this specific bullshit. I told RB either he keeps Linda away from me and my friend of i was fucking out of there. She never approached me again.

42. brucelevy - December 2, 2019

Linda is as vile a person as any who walks the earth. She’s a malignant disease. And many of these diseases are rewarded in the fof. Ethan being one of them.

43. brucelevy - December 2, 2019

Sean was Turan before
RB changed his name.

44. Insider - December 2, 2019

43. brucelevy

RB changed it to Sean Roberts.

M returned to her maiden name after Sean passed away.

No children.

45. Joey Virgo - December 2, 2019

42. brucelevy

If ever there was a servant to the Devil (besides Linda, of course), it is Ethan.

46. brucelevy - December 2, 2019

44. Insider

Yeah, RB tried to change my name to Bruce “Roberts” also. He’s like a dog pissing on his territory.

47. John Harmer - December 3, 2019

#46 #44 Burton getting everyone renamed “Roberts” has a Being John Malkovich vibe to it

48. ton2u - December 4, 2019

Bruce @ 41

I knew him before he was ‘Sean Robert’ – he was Turan Burkan…. we both grew up in Michigan, not sure but I think he probably joined the “school” in the Detroit center where I joined – but he joined after I’d already moved to “the ranch” – he moved there later. It was a bit of a “shock” to read that he passed away… he was a few years younger than I, just another reminder that this life is temporary and fleeting… Do you know whether he and or M ever escaped from the “school” ?

49. brucelevy - December 4, 2019

No, he died in the school and as far as I know M is still in. She became a true believer. Sean/Turan and I were very close friends when I was “in”. A few years after I left I ran into him at the OH store. We gave each other a big hug and started to catch up when M came over and dragged him away.

50. A.Z. - December 5, 2019

Left a long time ago, and check in to the blog occasionally. Have moved on to a new life, but not entirely. I’m still processing the experience, and gaining new insights over time, and intermittently discovering new things to scratch my head about. A few of the posts on this page grabbed my attention.

I hadn’t heard about M. (mentioned above). 40. ton2u. To state the obvious — that one is pretty bad.

And that’s probably why I never heard about it.

To talk about it, to bring it up (and bring up everything else) during everyday conversation, would wake people up. Asking questions, and listening to the answers, would wake people up.

Sometimes I wish we could transport ourselves back in time to help each other through all of the b.s. I don’t know what I would say, or if it would make any difference, but I’d be there for people. That’s part of the baggage I carry, wishing I knew more, did more, asked more questions, showed more curiosity about people and what they were going through, thought more critically and skeptically, and f’ing listened more. But if the time machine were fired up and ready to go, I’d hop aboard for what I read in comment 40, and then I would walk around asking simple questions — How are you? What? Why? Huh? And I would keep asking them.

And I would be gone within days or weeks.

What’s truly remarkable (for lack of a better adjective right now) is how a supposed king of hearts (theoretically, the noblest of cards) and a supposed “conscious” being could cause so much suffering for so many people. And how so many of us could be blind to that. We’re watching the same blindness and insanity on a national and international level. In both cases, if left unchecked, the results are not good.

51. fofblogmoderator - December 5, 2019

#50 is a new contributor. Welcome to the discussion A.Z.

52. ton2u - December 5, 2019

Welcome A.Z.!

Bruce @ 49

Based on what I know about M going through with the abortion – she was deeply traumatized by the experience, I think probably scarred for life… I have no insight into their relationship so I’m speculating here but I feel that the trauma might have had something to do with why she and Turan / Sean never had children (?) But you may know more about it than I…

Re: the making of a true-believer, no one is born to follow burton, or anyone else, through the fire. Based on antecedents, a person might be susceptible to certain “influences” but IMO a true believer is made through a process of various means and manipulations… in the case of M, she was coerced into the abortion, giving up her autonomy, IMO giving up control over her own body and procreative rights is akin to an owner “spaying” a pet. The outside intervention by her “master” in the manipulation of her body, mind, and her un-freedom to choose, must factor into creating, or, at any rate, fostering the mentality of a true-believer. At the time she felt she had no choice, she was boxed into a corner by everyone around her, and so went through with the procedure unwillingly… the necessity of surrendering her will, her autonomy, was a manipulation which in her situation planted the seed of her true-believer mentality… fertilized by burton horse-shit over the years…

IMO

53. ton2u - December 5, 2019

A.z. @ 50

The no-gossip “exercise, in effect, helped put the kibosh on one aspect of the inquiring mind to which you refer…

54. brucelevy - December 5, 2019

52. ton2u

“True believing” can also be form of self protection after trauma. Akin to burying one’s head in the sand to avoid having to look and re-look at the trauma. That and cognitive dissonance.

55. ton2u - December 6, 2019

54. Bruce… yup, self-protection is what I was getting at… the trauma of forced abortion, giving up her freedom, was akin to “psychological spaying” – self-protection of the “true believer” is the result… there’s an aspect or a type of something like stockholm syndrome involved, a situation leading to a condition which causes a captive to develop a psychological alliance with her captors.

56. WhaleRider - December 6, 2019

I do believe in a woman’s choice, and IMO, burton’s manipulation of his female followers to have an abortion is a crime against humanity.

It is likely that burton viewed children as a threat to his authority, control, and bottom line. It was no mistake that the one individual who cried, “the Emperor has no clothes!” was a “petulant” child.

On the other hand, I am eternally grateful that I did not raise my two beautiful children in this cult.

57. ton2u - December 6, 2019

…a “four step program” – facing, embracing, responding, letting go…

58. brucelevy - December 6, 2019

55. ton2u

Yup.

59. Golden Veil - December 6, 2019

60. Cult Survivor - December 6, 2019

59. Golden Veil

The video of the radio show is very appropriate — it shows how so-called “gurus” use the fascination their followers have with them for sexual exploitation.

Related to that, I told the story here when REB tried to seduce me a few days after I moved to Renaissance (Apollo) but nothing happened because I got too drunk before he invited me to his room so I could not “perform”. A few days later a friend of mine from my “center” arrived and REB told him that he was the person “Influence C sent him”, not me. I remember being very disappointed — I wanted to leave the FOF and “go home”. That’s fascination, no doubt.

Today I’m glad I wasn’t the chosen one but I’m sad for my friend — after a couple of years being part of REB’s entourage he escaped the Galleria in the middle of the night and the next morning he was sent back to his family abroad. I never heard from him again.

61. brucelevy - December 7, 2019

Stephen King✔@StephenKing

I get a kick out of the Republicans saying impeachment is an effort to overturn the will of the American people when Hilary beat the dumbbell by 3 million votes. He won because of the antiquated electoral college, a 2-mule wagon in a jet plane world.

62. Golden Veil - December 7, 2019

60. Cult Survivor

“A few days later a friend of mine from my “center” arrived and REB told him that he was the person “Influence C sent him”, not me. I remember being very disappointed — I wanted to leave the FOF and “go home”. That’s fascination, no doubt.”

This memory of yourself, tempered, I hope, with much empathy, exemplifies the perfidious teacher-student relationship common at Apollo. As written above in earlier posts, what you describe is almost a vampiric relationship, your “fascination” with the “Teacher” we now recognize for the sexual predator he is. I believe a key element in this horrible, repetitive line of sexually abused students, discussed here again and again – is the slow brainwash. What almost all students experienced amidst a seemingly wonderful community of like-minded seekers looking for spiritual answers was a slow brainwash. Yes, you were chosen and ready to comply, but by virtue of being really drunk, you were spared the treachery of your teacher and sexual molestation.

When I watch the last couple of minutes of the radio interview with the former Bikram student (in post 59, see 6:10 to 8:41), I am amazed at the ridiculousness of Bikram’s claims, such as “Why would I have to harass… people would pay one million dollars for one drop of my sperm?” but I shouldn’t be; the wacky tone is so similar to one of Burton’s claims, like “one thousand boys would not be enough…” or whatever it was he said. I think that both these people might be correctly described as narcissistic sociopaths.

63. brucelevy - December 7, 2019

62. Golden Veil

I couldn’t bear to watch much of it. Did he really say “Why would I have to harass… people would pay one million dollars for one drop of my sperm?” In a saner society people like him and RB would be institutionalized, after being neutered. Really, collectively we are pretty fucked up. Just look at the country and it’s government. That, and there’s a sucker born every minute.

64. amesgilbert1 - December 14, 2019

This coming Sunday, December 15th, Asaf Braverman is hosting another workshop on his site, BePeriod.com. The subject this time is:
Transitioning from searching for a teaching to practicing one
Introductory workshop hosted by BePeriod students

When is the right time to stop searching and begin practicing a teaching? What are the obstacles in this transition? Join us for an introductory workshop hosted by BePeriod students aimed at opening a window into this process.

Readers who have found this site for the first time while searching for more information about BePeriod.com and its founder, Asaf Braverman, might be puzzled as to the connection between Braverman and Robert Earl Burton, founder of the Fellowship of Friends. There is a simple answer: Braverman was Burton’s faithful, obedient follower and appointed successor for two decades. They had a falling out, and now Braverman seeks to apply what he was taught to you, a sincere seeker who is doing due diligence.

When you read through these pages, as you learn more about Burton’s depravity, his greed, his insatiable sexual appetites, his enormous lies, his lust for absolute control over every aspect of the lives of his followers—keep this in mind: Burton was Asaf Braverman’s teacher. In fact, for many years, Burton was training Braverman to take over the organization, both materially and spiritually. Braverman joined the Fellowship of Friends shortly after completing his Israeli army training, and was in his forties when he left. Think of how you were or are at the various stages of life, and thus how central to his life the Fellowship became, how much space his indoctrination into Burton’s fantasy took.

Now, Asaf’s defenders may say, “He finally realized the truth about Burton”, or, “He has gone back to a purer Fourth Way, only updated”, or any number of rationalizations about his history and present actions. I, of course, have no way of finding my way through such a minefield, nor am I interested. But, I’d say to any seeker, beware. And ask yourself, how likely is it that somehow he can slough off twenty years of mental conditioning, of being Burton’s right–hand man, of being adored and looked up to by thousands, of being assured of and accepting a luxurious lifestyle courtesy of those thousands? And how exactly does that qualify him to teach anybody anything? Except as an object lesson, of course.

No, Asaf Braverman was central to Burton’s con for two decades. And Burton was central to Asaf’s life for twenty years. It is not enough for Braverman to slough off any enquiries into his past relationship with Burton with, “It is like a bad marriage, one doesn’t talk about such things”.

I strongly advise you to look elsewhere, if indeed you believe that guidance from others is somehow vital to your spiritual well–being.

65. Cult Survivor - December 14, 2019

66. amesgilbert1 - December 14, 2019

Thanks for posting that video, CS, above, a useful reminder of Burton’s shallowness and lack of gratitude.

Those who are looking into Asaf Braverman’s BePeriod.com ‘school’ will want to know that this is Braverman’s ‘teacher’, Robert Earl Burton, lecturing his followers about how Braverman went wrong. Have a good look at this caricature, and listen to his words. Assuming you can make any sense of his mumblings…

Think about it. Asaf Braverman learned pretty much all he knows about spiritual matters from this man, over the course of two decades. Of course, Braverman had his own unique experiences before, during, and after his stay in the Fellowship of Friends, but certainly Burton was at the core of his psyche for most of his adult life. Further, Asaf Braverman’s knowledge of the “Fourth Way” consists entirely of the bastardized version taught by Burton, plus what he has gleaned from books that are freely available to anyone. So, why would you place your trust in Braverman? Not to mention, there is no legitimate lineage, a requirement of the Fourth Way, if that is what you are interested in. Recall that Burton’s ‘teacher’ was also a vicious conscienceless charlatan, the infamous Alex Horn.

Furthermore, in this intimate relationship lasting twenty years, Asaf Braverman was the apple of Burton’s eye, designated by Burton to be a ‘future conscious being’, one of the splendid supposed fruits of Burton’s ‘school’. Yet Burton only discovered that Asaf was a ‘snake in the grass’ at the end of the relationship. That doesn’t say much for Burtons perspicatity or powers of observation, let alone ‘consciousness’, does it? And vice versa, Asaf only discovered that Burton was not what he claimed after two decades of constat contact.

Remember also, that though Burton claims his organization is a ‘school’, there is no graduation. Over the last fifty years, not a single person has left with Burton’s approval. Fifty years! (that doesn’t say much for his skills as a ‘teacher’ or the the efficiency of his method, does it?) This list includes Asaf Braverman. The parting was acrimonious; see the video above for a small sample. Asaf had to be forced out, he did not leave on his own initiative (full disclosure, I was also ‘given the boot’ rather than walking out under my own steam, but not for setting myself up in competition as a ‘teacher’). So, if Asaf has a conscience, and it was stirred, it was not enough to lead to action. This is who you would want as a teacher?
Regarding this, it is worth recalling that Burton said, in 1994,

“Conscience is just a collection of I’s. Anyone accumulating too much should leave the school”.

The exact opposite of Gurdjieff, Ouspensky or Bennett or Pentland or Nicol or Salzmann, whose teachings claim conscience is as important as, and inseparable from, consciousness, and as strong an indicator as any that Burton doesn’t have conscience—and hence, consciousness—himself. This is the teaching that Asaf Braverman absorbed for twenty years (ditto all the other followers, some for as much as fifty years!)—conscience is just a bothersome collection of ‘I’s.

You will also be interested to know that Burton and his followers discarded the Fourth Way for a decade or more, until declining membership and funds made it necessary to bring out that particular bait again. In the meantime, Asaf Braverman and Burton filled the gap with an invention of their own, the so–called “Sequence”, a sort of mantra that they claimed they had ‘rediscovered’ and refined by study of ancient schools going back to caveman philosophers of 150 centuries ago. You will notice that Braverman still claims the rare talent of being able to discern traces of these ‘ancient schools’ and talk about them in the most convincing way!

Now Braverman has returned to the Fourth Way (that is, to the distortions he learned from Burton and books, plus his own ‘improvments’ and observations made while jetting around the world during the time he was banned from entering the U.S. due to being married to two people at once), using it as bait to attract followers plus plenty of moolah and adoration for himself.

Ironically, Burton has given up the “Sequence” and replaced it with some new mixture of superstitious goobledegook and outright lies, which his followers are lapping up with their usual enthusiasm. And, he has anointed other ‘future conscious beings’ that will take over after his demise to replace Asaf. Hey, easy come, easy go. Although I do feel sorry for those ‘conscious’ cavemen, who apparently labored to produce drawings of rhino poop laden with esoteric messages for Burton and Braverman to interpret 150 millenia later—all that effort, wasted!

67. illnevertell - December 15, 2019

Well said, Ames.
However, I think you meant to write: “perspicacity”
in that third paragraph.

Asaf Braverman was Robert Earl Burton’s chief ass-kisser during his time in the Fellowship of Friends. And, Heaven must know what other parts of Robert Earl Burton’s anatomy Asaf was kissing and/or what parts of Asaf’s anatomy Robert Earl Burton was kissing (besides his forehead, of course). I was there to witness.

Oh!, gee!, Robert Earl Burton looks so syphilitic in that video above, and that was a few years ago. Heaven must know what diseases he harbours from his wanton behaviours with pretty much any partner. I cannot imagine what he looks like now. But, centrally, you can put lipstick on a pig, yet it is still going to be a pig; pink suit and all.

68. illnevertell - December 15, 2019

Excuse me, that was fourth paragraph regarding: “perspicacity”

69. amesgilbert1 - December 15, 2019

Thanks for the spelling correction, illnevertell. I did catch it, and another in the next sentence—should be ‘constant contact’—as well, but too late. Wish there was an editing function…

You say, “I was there, I was a witness”, implying that Burton and Asaf Braverman had a sexual relationship in addition to the teacher/disciple relationship.

I always assumed this, but, not wanting another lawsuit (the last one with a member of the Fellowship cost me $20k), I have not said so outright on this blog, barring very strong confirmation. Others I have spoken to who knew Asaf during his stay in the Fellowship have said they had ‘strong suspicions’, but that is not enough for me to go out on a limb.

So, would you care to clarify the matter? This is not prurience on my part. I have explored the matter of sexual relationships, and I have concluded that sexual relations of any kind, even brief so–called ‘one–nighters’, produce a much–deeper–than–commonly–realized psychic connection, and that misuse of sexual energies (unequal power dynamics, lack of care or interest in the other apart from gratification, and of course, the use of force) produces long–lasting or permanent damage.

I would want to talk about this phenomenon on the blog, because I happen to believe that those who have had sex with Burton are never entirely free, for reasons they cannot help. And I believe the conditions that prevail with Burton are so distorted, so unequal in power, and such a betrayal of trust, there can never be a full repair, no matter how many therapists one goes through. This certainly would apply to Asaf, and make it even plainer that he is even less qualified than me to go around expounding on the Fourth Way in the role of a ‘teacher’, and that is saying something!

If you don’t want to talk about this on the blog, but are willing to trust me somewhat and talk about it privately, you could contact fofblogmoderator (Steve); he has my permission to pass on my regular e-mail address. I need something beyond mere assertions, of course, something to show you qualify as a bona fide observer.
Alternatively, you could use a ‘burner’ (one–time use) e-mail, or use a private VPN, or you could start a Protonmail account and know that you were absolutely secure (and anonymous) in both directions. I’ll send Steve my Proton e-mail as well, just in case you decide on that route. And should you want any communication from you to me to be one time only, I will certainly respect that and immediately trash any way or possibility of reply.

Anyway, I’m hoping you will tell, despite your blog name, one way or another!

This applies to anyone else who has certain, first–hand knowledge of sexual relations between Asaf Braverman and Robert Burton.

70. A.Z. - December 16, 2019

Video from 65:
“When you talk about as many things as I do, you don’t even have any thoughts about getting them all right.”

71. A.Z. - December 16, 2019

An outsider’s view of that video:
– A lot of bitterness, anger, and pure insanity in those eyes.
– The person on his left doesn’t believe a word. He thinks there’s an opportunity and is waiting things out. Delusional, like so many cult followers are, but also opportunistic.
– Similar to the rally of a deranged authoritarian. He can say nothing wrong, do nothing wrong.

72. John Harmer - December 16, 2019

#65 So Abraham Lincoln is the special FoF patron saint of leavers, huh?

🙂

73. Cult Survivor - December 16, 2019

71. A.Z.
The person on REB’s left is Alexandr “Sasha” Shalapanov — according to REB he is one of the 2 people in the FoF that “is on the ninth lifetime” and will become a conscious being (the other one is Dorian Matei). Asaf Braverman was the third one before he fell from grace.

72. John Harmer
Brilliant.

74. Cult Survivor - December 16, 2019

Here is a rare opportunity to see the 2 future conscious beings in action:

75. Wouldnt You Like To Know - December 17, 2019

More on Dorian Matei from the Grass Valley/Nevada City newspaper The Union:

https://www.theunion.com/entertainment/laura-petersen-a-value-worth-sharing-oregon-house-bread-maker-finds-path-with-ancient-grains/

http://www.artisanlavinia.com/

Here is a Fellowship of Friends style observation from the video:
Please notice that the right side of Dorian’s face is larger and more active than the left side. This indicates that the right side, false personality side, is dominant over the essence side, the left side. You may infer what you will from that.

At the conclusion of the video he quotes Shakespeare by speaking twice these lines:
“Be merry for you have cause of joy for our loss our game is much beyond our loss”
“Be happy for you have cause of joy for our game is much beyond our loss”
(In closed captioning mode, where text is provided, it actually says “game” twice.)

The Shakespeare comes from The Tempest: Act 2 Scene 1:
“Beseech you, sir, be merry; you have cause,
So have we all, of joy; for our escape
Is much beyond our loss.”

76. wouldntyou - December 17, 2019
77. amesgilbert1 - December 17, 2019

Thanks, CS, thank you for putting these up, I would think videos like this would be truly illuminating for any seeker wanting to find out more about the guy who runs BePeriod.com before making any kind of commitment. Worth ten thousand words! After all, even though he was Best Beloved while he was there, the three of them, Dorian, Sasha, and Asaf, acted in concert for so many years to spread and reinforce Burton’s delusions amongst the faithful.

Hey, if you happen to have any videos with Asaf himself leading a meeting, hosting a dinner or something like that whilst in the Fellowship of Friends, and posted that, it would complete the picture. And remind seekers that Asaf did not exactly escape from an ‘unhappy marriage’, he was actually having a really good time. His considerable vanity was being stroked day and night, he enjoyed a considerable salary plus expenses, travelled the world, and received the adoration and worship due the anointed heir apparent to the God–Emperor of Oregon House—for year after year after year!

78. Golden Veil - December 17, 2019

63. brucelevy – December 7, 2019

Bikram is seen in the Joe Rogan video I posted (in No. 59 above) at 6:36 saying “…people pay one million dollar [sic] for one drop of my sperm.”

72. John Harmer – December 16, 2019

#65 So Abraham Lincoln is the special FoF patron saint of leavers, huh?

John, I would love to know at what point the Abraham Lincoln reference is made in the video posted in No. 65!!

79. Golden Veil - December 17, 2019

I think that there is great value in former members posting their thoughts here, and the revealing videos of Fellowship of Friends meetings at Apollo in Oregon House are, in the words of Ames Gilbert, especially “…illuminating for any seeker wanting to find out more” about these people and the Fellowship of Friends. Please keep them coming – and labelled in the post with the speaker’s names might be a good idea.

Dorian Matei seems very well-placed as the future steward, if not “Teacher”, of the “School”. He has at least some ability as a public speaker whereas Sasha, in my opinion, does not. It baffles my mind, though, why Dorian Matei, with his apparent entrepreneurial success and beautiful family would want to be associated with a cult based on such lies and deceit, helmed by Robert Burton and his outrageous, fantastical assertions of signs of “Influence C” and personal angels guiding his “School” (cult.)

As for the survivors of Robert Burton’s brainwash-induced sexual abuse, I hope that the living ones are all able to express their anger at the Fellowship of Friend’s seductive trickery of them and can move on to a state of being 100% healed.

Back to Dorian Matei, that is such an incredibly well-written article about his bread making – and has good links; thank you so much, Wouldn’t You Like to Know. Does anyone out there know whether Dorian’s Artisan Lavinia breads are still sold in a stall at the Nevada City Farmers Market? His Lavinia Villa website shows a well-appointed estate (a “little Apollo”) and numerous lines of income and community involvement. I wonder if his five acre property touches borders with the Fellowship of Friends property and Robert Burton’s Apollo? If so, it could be more than just spiritual interest that keeps him involved – and permit himself to be continually groomed to someday possibly become the leader of the Fellowship of Friends.

http://www.artisanlavinia.com/

80. John Harmer - December 17, 2019

#78 Golden Veil here I have cut to the relevant seconds, with text (as far as I can hear it). I note that his narcissistic obsession means he finds even his incorrect assertions “interesting”.

81. Insider - December 17, 2019

72/80. John Harmer

This reference to being “accompanied” by Lincoln means (in “Burton-speak”) that Lincoln was assigned to awaken Miles and Asaf.

“Not correct on those two,” as if he has been correct in all other pronouncements and predictions, and those were the only two times that he was wrong, of course because he was given incorrect information by you-know-who.

82. Cult Survivor - December 17, 2019

80. John Harmer

Great job with the subtitles. Two small corrections:

“Miles Barth has said he was accompanied by Lincoln”
should be
“Miles Barth I said he was accompanied by Lincoln”

and

“But interesting that I chose (inaudible) Asaf”
should be
“But interesting that I chose the same (Linda pointed that out)”

“Linda” refers to Linda Kaplan, of course.

83. Just the Facts Ma'am - December 18, 2019

184/72. John Harmer, and others elsewhere:

To be very direct and to the point:
Yes, of course, Robert Earl Burton (REB), in the video, means that the angel Abraham Lincoln would awaken Miles and Asaf, however, as it turned out, good old Abe, known as “The Great Emancipator,” liberated them from the captivity and bondage that they were in to REB and the Fellowship of Friends (FoF).

Ironically, another FoF member seriously respected Abraham Lincoln as their personal guardian angel. That was Abraham Goldman (AG), the FoF lawyer for so many years. AG also had a large portrait painting of Abraham Lincoln that he hung in his law office. AG was also emancipated, liberated, from the captivity and bondage of REB and FoF, by his own hand via suicide.

A possible scenario: AG, besides his very serious health, legal and financial issues, likely, was concerned that his only begotten son (as in Genesis 22) would be sacrificed and be swept up in the sexual predation of REB. So, instead of his son, he sacrificed himself, as the innocent lamb. On one level, you cannot get more noble than that. God rest his soul.

For more on AG, go here:

This blogs’ parts 106 through 112.

https://robertearlburton.blogspot.com/2011/08/abraham-goldman-fellowship-of-friends.html

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/chicagotribune/obituary.aspx?n=abraham-n-goldman&pid=153260860

84. Insider - December 18, 2019

83. Just the Facts

Very subtle, your humor. Goldman sacrifices himself to save his son. That’s a good one. Naturally, the son would be best protected by AG not being there to warn him about Burton. And AG as the “innocent lamb.” Funny. Of course, he was just the opposite, knowing more about RB than virtually anyone else. But you knew that, which is why the post is so humorous. Sort of.

85. brucelevy - December 18, 2019

Abraham was a sociopath and very evil and did much harm without batting an eye.

86. brucelevy - December 18, 2019

Like virtually every lawyer who represented RB. They are all the same. Only some are still alive rewriting their own history of evil.

87. brucelevy - December 18, 2019

They should all rot in hell.

88. Insider - December 19, 2019

Abraham did not sacrifice himself for the sake of his son. He sacrificed himself, his health, and his career to protect Robert Burton. And then Burton dumped him. There’s no way the Board fires him without Burton’s full knowledge and approval.

89. Phutatorius - December 19, 2019

AG was subject to some disciplinary action by the California bar. Does anyone know what that was about?

90. Cult Survivor - December 19, 2019

89. Phutatorius

He was suspended twice by the bar — one time for 6 months and the other for a longer period. I don’t know the reason behind the suspensions.

91. John Harmer - December 19, 2019

#89 This blog entry from 2007 may shed more light:

“Honest Abe” wrote on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, April 19, 2007:
ABRAHAM N. GOLDMAN, Oregon House, Calif.: Goldman was licensed in Illinois in 1977 and in California in 1983. He failed to competently represent several clients, did not keep clients reasonably informed about developments in their cases, misrepresented the status of matters to clients, improperly agreed to an aggregate settlement of the claims of multiple clients without their informed written consent, failed to render appropriate accountings of settlements to clients, and misappropriated and commingled client funds. As a result, he was suspended in California for one year, with the suspension stayed for all but the first six months, followed by a two-year probation subject to certain conditions. Illinois imposed reciprocal discipline and suspended him one year, with the suspension stayed for all but the first six months to be followed by a two-year period of probation subject to the conditions imposed by the State of California.

Found here:

Illinois State Bar Association website: ISBA Bar News, December 15, 2000

Of course, Abe has mended his ways, he is more honest now (than Abe Lincoln); witness Kiran’s [blogger] freely given testimony. Almost all record of prior legal malpractice has been expunged except the above. Reposting here may prevent disappearing forever.

What you cannot find could speak volumes. Tip of iceberg? Titanic can tell. How do you bring a legal action against a lawyer?

That is certainly a question full of contradictions. Try it Kiran and get contradictions to your heart’s content.
DLE could result.

Honest Abe

92. Cult Survivor - December 19, 2019

91. John Harmer

In case somebody is not aware who is Kiran and why is he connected to AG, Kiran was a member of the FoF that was seriously injured in a car accident that killed his wife Cassandra and his best friend Daniela while they were in Egypt developing the presence of the FoF there.

While Kiran was in the ICU of a hospital in Egypt, REB sent AG there to try to make him sign a document giving all his possessions to the FoF in case he died.

93. brucelevy - December 19, 2019

RB is known for his self awareness.

94. Phutatorius - December 20, 2019

#91 & 92: Wow! Especially the part about Kiran in Egypt. When AG joined in the Chicago Centre, he was a young lawyer working on a class action suit against General Motors. I thought he had too much good sense and wouldn’t stick around long. Also, he seemed like a nice guy. Guess I was wrong.

95. Insider - December 22, 2019

From cult education.com comes this quote and description of a Frederick Lenz:

To his followers, Lenz was a brilliant teacher who brought them to new levels of spiritual awareness and an entrepreneur who guided them to lucrative careers. Newsweek dubbed him the “Yuppie Guru.”

To his critics, however, Lenz was a charlatan who lied without compunction, fleeced his students and sexually exploited women. “For someone who theoretically lived his life to help others, he spent a great deal of his time looking out for his own interests,” wrote Steve Kaplan, an ex-follower, in a letter printed in New York magazine after the guru’s death. “Lenz was a walking contradiction.”

Lenz cultivated followers, not friends; surrounded by disciples, he apparently felt closest to his dogs. He proclaimed himself, “one of the 12 truly enlightened beings on the planet,” but seemed beset by private demons. And in what may be the supreme irony, Lenz, who never evinced a twinge of guilt, chose to die in a body of water known as Conscience Bay.

*****************
Amazing the similarities to Robert Burton, especially “…felt closest to his dogs.”

96. brucelevy - December 23, 2019
97. brucelevy - December 23, 2019

Sorry if you won’t believe it but all gurus, teachers are sociopathic sexual predators. Sex, power, money…that’s the whole story. Unless you’re a fucking moron you should know this.

98. brucelevy - December 23, 2019

Really, someone should just off these cocksuckers for the good of the gene pool. These are monsters.

99. John Harmer - December 31, 2019

There’s something about this guys delivery that reminds me of the grand narcissist of Arkansas. The eyebrow waggle is a sweet detail I feel:

100. Tim Campion - December 31, 2019

99. John Harmer

Fifty years ago tonight, “the grand narcissist” Robert Earl Burton lured his first follower. Thus began The Fellowship of Friends.

101. WhaleRider - December 31, 2019

Folie à deux,shared psychosis, or shared delusional disorder is a psychiatric syndrome in which symptoms of a delusional belief and sometimes hallucinations are transmitted from one individual to another. The same syndrome shared by more than two people may be called folie à trois, folie à quatre, folie en famille (“family madness”), or even folie à plusieurs (“madness of several”).

102. Insider - December 31, 2019

101. WhaleRider

Does Burton have a “delusional disorder,” or is he yet another cold, calculating, manipulative (and successful), cult leader luring people with “Gurdjieff system” bait?

What (IMO) Burton learned from Alex Horn:

–Establish and continually reinforce the direct connection between you and a higher intelligence.

–Emphasize the fact that all searches end here, with your school, that there cannot possibly be anywhere else for your students to go.

–Brainwash your students into believing that, if they leave you, it would be better for them had they never been born.

–Act and speak confidently. Do not show doubt or remorse.

–Always keep your students off balance and in doubt about their work and progress. Compare them to yourself and your high level of being, so deep down they will always feel hopeless and worthless.

–People need the security of thinking they know the future. Give them this security. And if/when you are wrong about your predictions of the future, double down by predicting something even more outrageous and confidently the next time.

–A lie repeated often enough will soon be accepted as the truth.

103. Cult Survivor - December 31, 2019

102. Insider

Does Burton have a “delusional disorder,” or is he yet another cold, calculating, manipulative (and successful), cult leader luring people with “Gurdjieff system” bait?
I believe that both are true. In my opinion the difference between Burton and Manson, Applewhite, Jones et al. is that Burton has a lower percentage of delusion and a higher percentage of manipulation — that would explain why the FoF has been operating for 50 years and why Burton is not in jail.

104. Cult Survivor - December 31, 2019

100. Tim Campion

Fifty years ago tonight, “the grand narcissist” Robert Earl Burton lured his first follower. Thus began The Fellowship of Friends.
Thus began the carnival.

“Fellowship of Friends” search on Google Images:

105. brucelevy - December 31, 2019

102. Insider

Yup. You nailed it.

106. fofblogmoderator - January 1, 2020

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