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Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 171 March 15, 2019

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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Living Presence Discussion.

Here, you can share your thoughts, your stories, your own experiences as a former member of the FOF.  If you are considering becoming a member, you are invited to read the discussion to better know the organization you are considering joining; we welcome your questions. Participants in the discussion may post under their own name, or anonymously.

The first comment of all new participants will be moderated before they can start communicating in real-time.  You will need to register with a valid email address and be able to reply to the welcome/verification email you will receive. If you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear within a day after it has been submitted; any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, such as personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion anonymously will prompt a warning. Continued abuse will result in your removal from the discussion.

To visit the official site of The  Fellowship Of Friends;

http://livingpresence.com/

Comments

1. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 15, 2019

“…higher states of consciousness, such as those experienced with certain types of drugs…”

Psychosis is not a ‘higher state’. Simply because there may be exciting and seemingly positive emotional experiences under the influence of drugs does not mean an individual in such a state is experiencing a higher state of consciousness. A drugged individual is not more cognizant of an independently factual reality. People with drugs in their system interfering with the natural perceptions of the body and brain are not more aware or conscious, they are merely experiencing a drug induced psychosis that may or may not be more alarming, interesting and or more pleasant than the usual state of mind of a particular individual.

As a standard of “higher consciousness”, that is, more awareness of actual reality, likely take Albert Einstein’s state of mind when he was contemplating and calculating the mathematical laws that changed the entire course of human civilization. That’s higher consciousness. In that sense the most conscious human to live is Einstein because he was able to perceive, intuit and discover laws of physics that took the rest of the scientific world up the present (in many cases 100 years later) to confirm as correct.

Psychosis is not consciousness, whether drug induced or because of temporary or permanent brain damage. This is why raving cult gurus never improve the course of civilization and in fact increase the general ignorance and inevitably the general state of chaos. Study the history of various religions to confirm the effect of promoted psychosis in the world.

Perception of an independently factual reality that exists outside the inevitable neurotic symptoms of the average human is the standard for consciousness. Consciousness of a fantastic dream world brought to the fore by drugs or brain dysfunction is psychological sleep. Most people do not have the native intelligence, the “intelligence quotient”, to consciously perceive reality. This is why those working to advance science and the human condition, those actually perceiving reality, are far, far in the minority. In some cases the rest of us take drugs trying to reach a more fulfilling state than our native stupidity or we take drugs trying to treat the symptoms of our naturally dysfunctional and therefore ignorant brains.

2. Golden Veil - March 15, 2019

118. Cult Survivor – March 15, 2019

Apparently there are a lot of former Fellowship of Friends articulating similar thoughts about consciousness and awareness. By the way, I wouldn’ t underestimate the power of Asaf Braverman to seduce followers. Having search engine optimization down by spreading internet bread crumbs via associates posting articles such as the one linked below, videos like the one you posted and owning domains including ggurdjieff.com pointing to his Be Period website ~ may actually end up making Asaf Braverman the cult leader on top these days.

http://bepresentfirst.com/a-few-observations-on-divided-attention/

3. Insider - March 15, 2019

2. Golden Veil

Note that bepresentfirst.com (thankfully) does not seem to have been updated since 2016, the year that Asaf left the Fellowship, and when W1ll1@m P@ge would no longer have been allowed to communicate with him.

4. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 15, 2019

Asaf Braverman and the whole pyramid scheme…

About a two months or so before Braverman unveiled his teaching scheme based on the pyramid I had posted a series of “fourth way” interpreted pyramid diagrams and related essays on an open Facebook group. This is stuff I don’t go in for any longer, but in no time Braverman shows up with a entire site based on the pyramid. I received a number of messages noting that Braverman had used by “inspiration” to elaborate on his own nonsense. I posted on my site that Braverman should come up with his own ideas if he’s a man number five and he replied indirectly on his site that “esoteric knowledge” belongs to everyone, equally, regardless who published it first. He included a quick remark that he didn’t steal anyone’s ideas.

His treatment wasn’t exactly the same as mine, it wasn’t direct plagiarism, but the pyramid motif was obviously from my “inspiration”.

5. WhaleRider - March 15, 2019

Golden Veil:
First let me say that I am glad you only spent a year or less in the FOF. Your description of different states of self-awareness and the resultant time distortion seems honest and unassuming…thankfully you didn’t wax poetic into the whole “cosmic awareness” trip!

Still, I guess we can agree to disagree about what the level of consciousness the old masters might have been in while creating their art; please bear in mind that the whole idea that the unconscious exists at all didn’t occur until articulated in the 1800’s. Before that time, art was considered divinely inspired or guided by spirits as most people were way, way more religious and superstitious than they are now.

It takes years of single minded dedication to become a master like Rembrandt, usually at the expense of others or other parts of one’s life…as you may know, Rembrandt went bankrupt in the end.

To me, just because they were great artists doesn’t mean they were necessarily in more of a “higher state” than the inspiration you feel hiking in the mountains, which BTW, I happen to share with you.

Yes, there are a lot of opinions about what constitutes a so-called “higher state of consciousness” and the difference between consciousness and awareness.

Personally, to me being able to do higher math or advanced quantum physics doesn’t qualify as “higher consciousness”, but as someone with an advanced intellect. And Einstein didn’t work in a vacuum…like the rest of us, he stood upon the shoulders of others. Remember, Four Days of the Fourth State, these are the guys who contributed to the creation of atomic weapons. They may have been smart, but wise? Maybe not so much.

Stephen Hawkings is also in the same realm as Einstein with a brilliant intellect and yet given his physical condition as a result of ALS, both Gurdjieff and burton’s FOF would probably have written him off as a “damaged machine”.

I actually agree with Braverman (thank you, Cult Survivor) that consciousness is synonymous with self-awareness, but where we undoubtedly disagree is that I believe both self-awareness and consciousness are inherent in humans, although in varying degrees, and I believe his version of “idealized consciousness” or “higher consciousness” is a delusion.

Despite what Haven says and Braverman alludes to in his video, people are not dogs! That has the hallmarks of racism, IMO, and making the comparison is dehumanizing.

The difference between dogs and humans, IMO, is that dogs can neither do math in their heads nor recognize themselves in a mirror and humans can do both no matter what state of awareness they are in, unless of course they have brain damage, are blind, or are in a coma.

In Braverman’s video he describes the difference between an extroverted awareness (dog) and an introverted awareness (meditating monk) like I posted above. Big deal. Humans do both all the time!

The so-called “ripple effect” of “higher consciousness” also described above in prior pages as the “air freed from a burst balloon” is, IMO, wishful thinking, a fantasy of the ego that wants to believe it can survive death or exist outside the body.

And there are those who need others to share the same delusion, who will even pay someone to belong to a group of like-minded people in order to minimize their collective doubt because life after death is in fact, unknowable.

However, the more people believe in the delusion, the more real it seems.

IMO, it makes more sense and is more healthy to “quantify” consciousness or self-awareness in terms of how conscious are you of not only yourself, but of others at the same time.

It takes a high degree of self-awareness, emotional and intellectual maturity to fully grasp that one has an unconscious that is hidden from consciousness like the stars are during the day by the light of the sun, and that our shadow side can often be perceived by others, no matter how conscious or self-aware you think you are…myself included.

So the “divided attention” model works for me not for the so-called “taking in of higher impressions” to feed a delusion, a so-called “higher state” as the fourth way frames it, AKA looking at an object while simultaneously being self-aware… but I use the model of divided attention as I’m looking at another person…in other words…can I see myself in others and at the same time see them in me…and if so, can I treat them as I would have them treat me…ergo we are all equals, we all have flaws and talents…and we all have inner gurus.

IMO, that is the road to happiness, peace of mind, healthy relationships, and good quality sleep at night. (Unfortunately, it’s not always a good business model these days if your sole aim is to accumulate money by decieving people into believing they are inadequate.)

6. Golden Veil - March 15, 2019

5. WhaleRider – March 15, 2019

… but I use the model of divided attention as I’m looking at another person…in other words…can I see myself in others and at the same time see them in me…and if so, can I treat them as I would have them treat me…

That sounds a like a good principle to live by, Whalerider.

7. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 15, 2019

“Personally, to me being able to do higher math or advanced quantum physics doesn’t qualify as “higher consciousness”, but as someone with an advanced intellect. And Einstein didn’t work in a vacuum…like the rest of us, he stood upon the shoulders of others. Remember, Four Days of the Fourth State, these are the guys who contributed to the creation of atomic weapons. They may have been smart, but wise? Maybe not so much.”

Interesting how internet bloggers do not hesitate to presume to comprehend the quality of mind of famous people who actually did something in the world. For myself, I’d have to at least attempt to do some higher math on the scale of astrophysics before I judged it as disqualifying in the magically ‘supplying’ realm of non-measurable higher consciousness.

About the nuclear weapons aspect…Einstein was one of many scientists who wrote to Roosevelt warning against the development of nuclear weapons. Nukes were a byproduct of Einstein’s e-mc2, not at all the actual point. What Einstein didn’t know but Roosevelt did was that Nazi Germany was busy trying to develop nukes themselves and not knowing how advanced the Nazis were there was a presumed race to get the bomb first. Meanwhile, as the U.S. developed the bomb the general in charge of security spent most of his efforts scrutinizing the suspiciously communist connected Jew Oppenheimer while ignoring the two actual spies on the scientific team delivering the data that cost the U.S. billions to develop to Stalin. The bomb was a side effect of Einstein’s work and one he himself did not anticipate when he discovered the laws of the universe.

8. Artemis44 - March 15, 2019

7. Four Days of the Fourth State

‘Interesting how internet bloggers do not hesitate to presume to comprehend the quality of mind of famous people who actually did something in the world.’

Why only internet bloggers? It’ happens at a table drinking beer, around a campfire, at the water fountain in the office i. e. at every place where humans talk or ‘blog’.

9. WhaleRider - March 15, 2019

Better check your math, FDotFS, Einstein didn’t write the letter to Roosevelt, he only signed it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein–Szilárd_letter

I guess having higher consciousness and discovering by extrapolation the laws of the Universe exempts Einstein from foreseeing the stupidity of others? How a man of higher consciousness have missed that?

And aren’t you presuming that having an advanced intellect is a precursor to “higher consciousness”? Who made that rule?

You set the bar pretty high and seem a bit idealistic to me. That pretty much would exclude the rest of humanity from that club who didn’t pass beyond Calculus.

And whose to say that a bout of psychosis in a man like Mohammad chemically induced or not wouldn’t later effect a billion people today in a beneficial way (less a few thousand zealots) who follow the Koran and strive to be a better person?

Jeeze, maybe humans aren’t meant to know the laws of the universe if we cannot be good stewards of our Mother Earth.

If the burning of fossil fuels and mass production of meat doesn’t kill us, then all the nuclear waste we’re creating and stockpiling eventually probably will. I get it, we’re all fucked, because all the rest of us non-Einsteins including you and me are deluded idiots. Isn’t that your endgame here?

10. Golden Veil - March 15, 2019

1. Four Days of the Fourth State – March 15, 2019

“…higher states of consciousness, such as those experienced with certain types of drugs…” [Whalerider]

“Psychosis is not a ‘higher state’. Simply because there may be exciting and seemingly positive emotional experiences under the influence of drugs does not mean an individual in such a state is experiencing a higher state of consciousness.” [Four Days]

Maybe, or maybe not… but I’d like to try this one and find out for myself.

https://templeofthewayoflight.org/retreats/ayahuasca_retreat_gabor_mate_richard_condon/?fbclid=IwAR0A7GTq4sEIOnnyLgBgSMC6ZUEJVeOKIBfHVAr5ayjVnx-wvmoiFlS1jvg

11. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 15, 2019

9. WhaleRider

Yes I had it wrong. Einstein did warn of a German bomb and signed a letter sent to FDR encouraging him to build a bomb first before the Nazis.

But then there was this, which accounts for my confusion.

A short article on the front page of the New York Times contained his view: “Prof. Albert Einstein… said that he was sure that President Roosevelt would have forbidden the atomic bombing of Hiroshima had he been alive and that it was probably carried out to end the Pacific war before Russia could participate.” (“Einstein Deplores Use of Atom Bomb”, New York Times, 8/19/46, pg. 1). Einstein later wrote, “I have always condemned the use of the atomic bomb against Japan.” (Otto Nathan & Heinz Norden, editors, “Einstein on Peace”, pg. 589).

http://www.doug-long.com/einstein.htm

“I guess having higher consciousness and discovering by extrapolation the laws of the Universe exempts Einstein from foreseeing the stupidity of others? How a man of higher consciousness have missed that?” WR

Here is what I said originally:

“As a standard of “higher consciousness”, that is, more awareness of actual reality, likely take Albert Einstein’s state of mind when he was contemplating and calculating the mathematical laws that changed the entire course of human civilization.”

” His state of mind when… ”

There is some literary conditioning that assumes permanent enlightenment in our thinking about consciousness and the heroes who experience it. I very much doubt anyone can accurately foresee the future due to a condition of eternal enlightenment.

“And aren’t you presuming that having an advanced intellect is a precursor to “higher consciousness”? Who made that rule?”

Yes and I presume that perception of an “independent factual reality” makes that rule. So, if someone is an original discoverer of some aspect of “independent factual reality” (independent of the usual neurotic reality motivating each delusional human being, because the reality is scientifically proven and repetitively provable), such as the discovery of a mathematically demonstrable structure of the universe (the Standard Model for example), then during the ongoing productive research requiring extraordinary insight and human reasoning power that individual is experiencing higher consciousness.

“That pretty much would exclude the rest of humanity from that club who didn’t pass beyond Calculus.”

Yes that is correct. Those of us not doing science are merely sucking up resources (particularly if breeding more dumb people) while living a meaningless existence.

“And whose to say that a bout of psychosis in a man like Mohammad chemically induced or not wouldn’t later effect a billion people today in a beneficial way (less a few thousand zealots) who follow the Koran and strive to be a better person?”

Islam is a horrendous religion, nearly as destructive as Christianity. All Abrahamic religions are psychotic and have ruined the lives the people who were brainwashed from birth into the madness. Religious people can’t be trusted because everything they say and do is at the service of an agenda, an agenda that is a lie. The underlying agenda of the religious is to convince everyone of the legitimacy of their psychotic fantasy.

“…all the rest of us non-Einsteins including you and me are deluded idiots. Isn’t that your endgame here?”

In the end everyone experiences the same fate: the brain dies and the “you” and the “me” and the “Einstein” and the “Hitler” and the “Jesus” disappears into nothingness–no awareness, no eternity in heaven, no hell–just lights out.

What is destroying civilization as a whole is the unstoppable breeding of a destructive invasive species called humans.

(I’ll let you know when the Islamists show up to kill me for blasphemy.)

12. WhaleRider - March 16, 2019

Golden Veil:
Yes, I agree. The golden rule ought to be thought of as golden eyeglasses or golden contact lenses in which to view others.

The trouble with the fourth way, burton and the FOF vis à vis “divided attention” is that it is only applied to the taking in of “impressions” or objects, in order to feed the onlooker’s so-called higher state (and inflated ego) which also leads to viewing others as “impressions” or objects instead of people, too.

burton did this all the time, treating others as objects in need polishing instead of accepting them as they are, making comments on his follower’s hygiene, clothing, habits, or their so-called “alchemy”, another corrupted term he has weaponized like “sleep” and deploys to label and manipulate his followers.

Alchemy, as I understand in now in Jungian terms, has more to do with the transformation of one’s internal Psyche which in turn transforms relationships, rather than attempting to transform a lead object into gold, or manipulating others to purchase Ferragamo shoes and gold cuff links in order to appear a certain way and receive praise or acceptance.

Once burton establishes the “gold alchemy” dress code, often disparaging or excluding those whom do not or are unable to conform, he then uses gifts of these objects to groom his intended rape victims who cannot afford such luxuries.

He did that to me when he gifted me a gold wrist watch and fancy pajamas shortly after I moved into his residence, in what was then called, “the Academy”. He also gave me $1500 on one of our trips in Italy with which I purchased a gold silk dinner jacket in Rome, ostensibly to seek his approval and be accepted by the group.

During my first prospective meeting I showed up wearing LL Bean rubber moccasins and blue jeans!

Eventually I crammed my feet into Ferragamo loafers burton had picked out and lobbied for me to wear that were a half size too small, but were on sale…not because it was my choice as a means of intentional suffering, but because I think he intended to make me suffer in order to sadistically please himself…which is neither how I would treat others now nor wish to be treated by others in the future…like a good Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, or Atheist.

13. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 16, 2019

Views from the Wrong World
An in-depth review of:
Views from the Real World
(Book, Early Talks of G. I. Gurdjieff)

(Random quotes from the pages of Glimpses of Truth):

Keep in mind that this is Gurdjieff writing a promotional piece in hopes of demonstrating his superior understanding over modern scientific discovery.

“From this point of view, the hypothetical notion of the atom
as an indivisible part of a simple substance or element cannot
serve as a model. An atom of a given density, a really existing
individuum, must be taken as the smallest quantity of the substance
examined which retains all those qualities—chemical,
physical and cosmic—which characterize it as a certain note of
a definite octave. For instance, in contemporary chemistry
there is no atom of water, as water is not a simple substance
but a chemical compound of hydrogen and oxygen. Yet from
the point of view of ‘objective chemistry’ an ‘atom’ of water
is an ultimate and definitive volume of it, even visible to the
naked eye.”

From the point of view of chemistry, even in the year 1914, the above statement is proof that Gurdjieff had no understanding of modern science. He clearly does not know what the concept of a ‘molecule’ represents. He does not know what a chemical compound is. In Gurdjieff’s magic pseudo-science a molecule of the chemical compound dihydrogen monoxide, H2O, also known as water, is confused with a single atom of an element. Water is not an element. Pure water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen combined to form a molecule. This scientific concept is elementary and was well established in 1914. Gurdjieff has no clue of the objective system of chemistry or physics. Instead he invents a magic Objective Science (from Beelzebub) based on ignorance and occultist nonsense. In Gurdjieff’s improved chemistry there exists an atom of water which contains all the qualities of water that can be found existing in nature. Well, water in nature contains many impurities, so a magic Gurdjieffian water atom would have to be labeled for each location where it was found containing all the many molecules of contaminants particular to that location. The whole idea is harebrained.

The only way a person can accept what Gurdjieff demands, that molecules be thought of as “atoms” of compounds, is if the person is ignorant of science and given over to romantic and mystical imagining that in no possible way can make reality more comprehensible. In other words, you have to be a romantic idealist to believe in Gurdjieffian “objective” science.

“Mr. Gurdjieff added: “Certainly you have to accept
this on trust for the present. But those who seek for the Great
Knowledge under the guidance of one already in possession of
it, must personally work to prove, and verify by investigation,
what these atoms of matter of different densities are.”

Any “science” that has to be initially accepted on faith is not a science, it is a religion.

Note that Gurdjieff takes pains to describe himself as someone in possession of something labeled Great Knowledge. This theme of self-congratulating grandiosity runs through everything Gurdjieff does.

This alchemical system Gurdjieff expounded has proven within the last century to be anything but practical. At present it is an embarrassing artifact devoid of anything meaningful and is ignored by the Gurdjieffians themselves. It is swept under the rug. All that remains of the concept of an atom of water (or watermelon, lemonade, green tea, etc.) is the ready-jargon magic language usage of terms like “hydrogen 12” when referring to a psychological experience of intense interest and awareness. The concept of an “atom of water” did not result in a new esoteric science that revolutionized science and culture while awakening dutiful devotees. Most dedicated Gurdjieffians hope that new people becoming interested in their religion will gloss over these many adamant demands of scientific rethinking Gurdjieff was so insistent upon. They hope Gurdjieff’s blatant and embarrassing eccentricity is shrugged off as “something over my head” to be understood at a later date. Anyone who thinks such a thing, then be prepared, there is no “later date” when it comes to an explanation of atoms of water, or atoms of manure, or potato salad, or chewing gum.

According to Wikipedia this is some of the developments leading up to Gurdjieff inventing his own “objective science” based on his own esoteric whims.

Molecule (1794) – “extremely minute particle”, from French molécule (1678), from New Latin molecula, diminutive of Latin moles “mass, barrier”. A vague meaning at first; the vogue for the word (used until the late 18th century only in Latin form) can be traced to the philosophy of Descartes. -wiki/Molecule#History_and_etymology

In the early 20th century, the American chemist Gilbert N. Lewis began to use dots in lecture, while teaching undergraduates at Harvard, to represent the electrons around atoms. His students favored these drawings, which stimulated him in this direction. From these lectures, Lewis noted that elements with a certain number of electrons seemed to have a special stability. This phenomenon was pointed out by the German chemist Richard Abegg in 1904, to which Lewis referred to as “Abegg’s law of valence” (now generally known as Abegg’s rule). To Lewis it appeared that once a core of eight electrons has formed around a nucleus, the layer is filled, and a new layer is started. Lewis also noted that various ions with eight electrons also seemed to have a special stability. On these views, he proposed the rule of eight or octet rule: Ions or atoms with a filled layer of eight electrons have a special stability.

Moreover, noting that a cube has eight corners Lewis envisioned an atom as having eight sides available for electrons, like the corner of a cube. Subsequently, in 1902 he devised a conception in which cubic atoms can bond on their sides to form cubic-structured molecules. -wiki/History_of_molecular_theory#20th_century

It seems clear that Gurdjieff superficially scans old scientific papers and information available at the time and then simply makes up his own “improved” version that fits in with his homemade esoteric cosmology. He then promotes this to the sad uninformed seekers that find themselves at his feet as a special Great Knowledge he discovered in his roaming of the orient.

14. WhaleRider - March 16, 2019

Since I have no direct experience of the Gurdjieff Foundation, I’m curious if anyone knows whether or not current members of the group actually study and promote Gurdjieff’s scientific theories (apart from his spiritual practices) and believe them to be true, in light of contemporary education and the abundance of creditable, verified information readily available on the internet?

Hindsight is always 20/20, especially with Wikipedia.

Wouldn’t Gurdjieff (and Ouspensky for that matter) have admitted his scientific theories were false if they were tested and demonstratably proven incorrect, since he placed so much emphasis on verification?

Of course, burton never admits his predictions were in fact false theories based upon scant, delusional evidence; he blames c-influence for having to “humble him”, and his followers certainly do not dispute this, they readily accept his rationalization because deep down both he and his followers know he’s grandiose.

15. Cult Survivor - March 17, 2019

I would like to remind my fellow bloggers that the foundation of the Fourth Way is magical, not scientific (alchemy is not chemistry, and metaphysics is not physics). Even if Gurdjieff and Ouspensky tried to be “scientific” in order to attract the European intelligentsia of the time, to mix magical and scientific thinking it’s like mixing water and oil — it takes a lot of energy to mix them but eventually they separate (people inclined to magical thinking find the teaching too dry and complicated and people attracted to scientific thinking find it ridiculous, as the last 2 posts demonstrate).

An interesting thing about Burton is that he never tried to be scientific like Gurdjieff and Ouspensky; on the contrary, all his teaching is magical thinking non-sense (predictions, visits of the Absolute, etc.). In my opinion the reason for that is, to use the words of Girard Hav3n, that “Robert is emotionally strong but intellectually weak”. I wouldn’t use the expression “emotionally strong” for somebody that uses emotions to manipulate people, but Girard himself is intellectually strong and emotionally weak, so we have to take his comment with a grain of salt.

16. Robert P. - March 17, 2019

Reply to #13 – Four Days of the Fourth State (“FDFS”)

In the paragraph quoted by TDFS, G. begins with a definition of an “atom” that differs from the definition given to an atom by contemporary science. He says his definition is based on objective science. He clearly knows the difference between the two.

FDFS says, “… Gurdjieff had no understanding of modern science. He clearly does not know what the concept of a ‘molecule’ represents. He does not know what a chemical compound is. In Gurdjieff’s magic pseudo-science a molecule of the chemical compound dihydrogen monoxide, H2O, also known as water, is confused with a single atom of an element. Water is not an element. Pure water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen combined to form a molecule.”

The five minutes or so that FDFS spent on the internet gathering his “knowledge” of chemistry did not serve him/her any better than the five minutes or so that he/she spent studying G.’s teaching. A molecule is a group of two or more atoms bonded together, while a compound is a group of two or more atoms bonded together when the atoms are from at least two types of elements. H2O is both a molecule (because it has two hydrogen atoms) and a compound (because it contains both hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom).

FDFS’ reference in the quote above to “… a molecule of the chemical compound dihydrogen monoxide…” is nonsensical since it is impossible by definition to have a molecule of a chemical compound. His/her further statement that, “…water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen combined to form a molecule.” is clearly wrong. What is formed is a chemical compound, not a molecule.

The conclusion that can be drawn from this example (and I could provide more examples if I wished to waste more of my time disputing FDFS’ take on things) is that anything FDFS has to say about Gurdjieff or his teaching should be treated with extreme caution.

17. WhaleRider - March 17, 2019

More thoughts on the fourth way and the FOF’s application of “divided attention”.

In addition to employing the technique of diving attention by simultaneously being aware of oneself in others…and aware of others in oneself as I posted above…to view and treat others as equals instead of as “impressions” or objects to feed an inflated ego as burton and his followers selfishly do, a deeper thought occurred to me regarding how one might actually benefit from the technique in another holistic, healthy manner…interpersonally, that is, in relation to one’s larger, inclusive Self.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it has been my understanding that the fourth way, burton’s FOF, and now burton’s spawn promote the idea that either one is “conscious”, “present”, “awake”, “remembering oneself”, “self-aware” in any given moment…or one is “asleep”, “identified”, “negative”, “mechanical”, or merely “aware” like an attentive dog…and the only variable which defines “level of being” is the duration of time one is able to sustain such a state.

burton is also operating under the delusion that his self-proclaimed status as a fully “conscious being” also enables and entitles him to read “signs” provided by disembodied spirit beings, whom be believes refer to him personally, magically guiding his cult.

According to the fourth way, the higher level of being, as burton claims he has, the more time one is able to stay in the present.

The cult’s stated aim is to practice maintaining a state of hyper vigilant self-awareness, which the FOF now labels, the “higher self”, through various means, tasks, and “exercises“ created by burton and others, for instance, such dress codes, fine dining rituals, “word exercises”, and lately, doing the “sequence”.

Yet, there seems to me at least the subtle assumption that when one is “self-remembering”, “self-aware”, “present”, “conscious”, “in a state of non-identification” etc, etc…that the “unconscious” parts or so-called, “lower self” which apparently also includes the critical faculties of the intellect…either disappears, is transcended, or is somehow silenced. But does it? Really?

In my 40 years of personal experience and study of the psyche, myself and others, that doesn’t appear to be the case.

In fact, the more a person thinks or outwardly claims to be sentient, self-aware, and conscious, upon closer scrutiny, the opposite is the case. And we know that burton exempts himself from any scrutiny of his grandiose claims through his delusional system of claiming to be a so-called, “teacher” and by purging and banishing any and all dissenting followers.

IMO, he suppresses his unconscious parts with his “teacher persona”, and claims he is a fully conscious “man number 7.6”, yet given his hissy fits about cuff links, magical thinking, ideas of reference, abuse of power, and inumerable rapes of his male followers, his behavior clearly indicates his unconscious is alive and thriving in the background, despite claiming to be the “brightest light in 2000 years”.

The stars in the sky do not cease to exist when the sun comes out.

And this is so because by definition we are generally unaware of our unconscious parts, which can vary only by degrees in each individual.

Our psyches contain what are called, lacunas, or blind spots, myself included, whether we choose to admit it or not, but are sometimes made painfully aware of by others or sometimes embarrassing circumstances.

Now we know that the fourth way and FOF exploits the fear of death, the unknown, our discomfort and anxiety about our contradictions and inconsistencies, our apparent internal disunity, and labels this pejoratively…the “many I’s”.

burton’s only consistency, however, is maintaining his delusional system at his follower’s expense, both literally and figuratively, yet the cult theoretically seeks to promote internal unity in followers through strengthening the so-called, internal “steward” or “conscious overseer”, overcoming the contrarian “lower self” by endeavoring to maintain the state of hyper vigilant self-awareness for as long as possible by oneself and supposedly with the help of other like-minded individuals.

Even though they call it “the work”..,it doesn’t work!

BEWARE, the FOF cult actually contributes to more internal disunity by promoting an internal split between the “higher and lower” self, effectively balkanizing and disempowering followers, putting them at war with themselves and therefore rendering the follower into tacit, “wordless” pathological accommondation of burton’s unconsciousness or face abandonment and ex-communication from the group.

So if by chance you have landed on this page with an interest in the ideas of the fourth way for personal growth, forget about using divided attention to supposedly feed your “astral body” with fine “impressions” of “hydrogen 12” to inflate your ego and make you feel oh so special. That’s total, unverifiable bullshit.

I recommend the following exercise:

use the idea of divided attention to be simultaneously Self aware…that at any given moment, whether your eyes are open or closed…know thy Whole Self, you are and will always be…both conscious and unconscious, not one or the other, no matter how hard or long you struggle…or what a cult leader tells you or what he labels non-members…the biggest red flag of all.

I wish someone had warned me like I’m warning you now.

I can honestly say, the pursuit of pure consciousness will only serve to make you more unconscious.

So spare yourself from stepping into the quicksand of this “fourth way” cult or any other.

It may feel great at first, but over time you will only sink deeper, waste a lot of time and money, lose your dignity, and at some point it will seem impossible to get out.

18. rich - March 17, 2019

it’s good to remember G in the ’20, this is before
air travel, and voice recordings, pictures are mostly
stills b&w, and general availability of cars relatively
new. Telephones not available everywhere, and
newspapers the main source for news. I mean
seances were at the height of popularity, folks
believed in voodoo, movies about mummies
just beginning to appear.

19. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 17, 2019

One of the first set of cult psyops maneuvers the Gurdjieff Foundation fanatics use to establish in the mind of the new person that he or she is the insignificant applicant while the cult handler is the indifferent VIP that you are trying to make contact with is they arrange a meeting at a cafe or some such public place and then fail to show up. The interested applicant naturally reasons there must be some kind of mistake and after 40 minutes or so calls the cult handler who then pretends to not remember anything about the appointment, even though he or she set the meeting time and date. If you don’t show irritation over the phone then the handler casually asks if you’re still interested in meeting. If you do show irritation then they suggest perhaps some other time would be better.

Right away this establishes that the cult is in charge and the interested party is the beggar and that the begging requires persistence.

They are so pleased with themselves over these traditional tricks that they can’t help but inform you of the ruse later, just so you’ll know how clever they are and how susceptible you are in your state of sleep.

20. Robert P. - March 17, 2019

Response to #18 (FDFS):

I have been in two different (though related) groups associated with the Gurdjieff Foundation for 10 + years. I have never heard of the “psyops maneuvers” that are described in FDFS’ post. My experience contacting the groups, being interviewed (so to speak), becoming part of an initiatory group and, ultimately, being invited into the main groups was nothing remotely like what FDFS describes. The Foundation groups operate independently of one another. As such, the protocol for admitting new members also varies from group to group and can even vary within each group depending on who is responsible at any given time for meeting with interested persons. In most cases, interested persons will meet in an initiatory group separate from the main body of members. The initiatory groups are headed up by a few senior group members. The initiatory groups can last many months, sometimes more than one year, Those that stick out that process may then be invited to join the main group.

21. WhaleRider - March 18, 2019

Robert P:
Welcome to our blog. I thank you for sharing your experience with Gurdjieff groups, for your clarity, and respect your tone of voice.

If you don’t mind me asking for further clarification purposes, are still a member, and were you ever a member of the FOF?

Would you also care to share your opinion, based upon your personal experience not what you’ve read or been told, about whether or not you believe “consciousness” vs.“sleep” is an either/or proposition?

22. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 18, 2019

19. Four Days of the Fourth State

This happened to me in the 1990s in San Francisco and the two handlers involved were very senior Gurdjieff Foundation people. Both spent decades associating with Pentland.

I will assure you again this cult does not hesitate to misrepresent itself as cover and protection. Also, those who represent them in public do not do so at their own volition. They are always under strict supervision.

23. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 18, 2019

First, for some reason I’m experiencing a long delay in being able to see Robert P.’s comments.

16. Robert P.

“His/her further statement that, “…water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen combined to form a molecule.” is clearly wrong. What is formed is a chemical compound, not a molecule.”

Second, my lack of knowledge of chemistry is irrelevant. I didn’t write a book containing the subject with the purpose of sucking in “students” and then fucking their wives. What is of interest is Gurdjieff’s harebrained “objective chemistry”.

Third, your understanding of chemistry is as bad as mine:

From Wikipedia:

“Water (H2O) is a polar inorganic compound that is at room temperature a tasteless and odorless liquid, which is nearly colorless apart from an inherent hint of blue. It is by far the most studied chemical compound and is described as the “universal solvent” [18][19] and the “solvent of life”.[20] It is the most abundant substance on Earth[21] and the only common substance to exist as a solid, liquid, and gas on Earth’s surface.[22] It is also the third most abundant molecule in the universe.”

Water is both a compound and a molecule. I would suggest that those reading Robert P.’s retorts to my comments keep in mind that he does not know what he is talking about.

Robert P.:

“FDFS’ reference in the quote above to “… a molecule of the chemical compound dihydrogen monoxide…” is nonsensical since it is impossible by definition to have a molecule of a chemical compound.”

“Compounds contain two or more different elements. Water is a molecule because it contains molecular bonds. Water is also a compound because it is made from more than one kind of element (oxygen and hydrogen).”

https://education.jlab.org/qa/molecule_01.html

24. Robert P. - March 18, 2019

Response to #21 (WhaleRider):

I am not in the FOF. I am also not new to this blog. I first posted on it 11 or 12 years ago. At that time, paranoia over FOF infiltrators on the blog was rampant and, because of my pro-“Fourth Way” views, I was accused by some of the regulars on this blog of being a FOF plant. I was saved from being “anathemetized” (if you have read Beelzebub’s Tales – Hassein calls the three-brain beings of the planet Earth “slugs” – you will get the joke) by a trusted blog member who knew me when I was in the FOF in Toronto, for about 5 years, in the 1980s (a time when the corrupt nature of the inner core of the FOF was largely unknown to the rank and file members).

I would like to address the question you raised regarding consciousness vs. sleep though perhaps later today as now I have to get back to trying to earn a living.

25. WhaleRider - March 18, 2019

Life is Only Real When I Am a Narcissist

by G. I. Am One

Quotes to live by in a not so foreign script:

“As a narcissist, divided attention comes easy when you are always focused on your self.”

“There are three lines of work: 1) work on making myself feel superior 2) work on making myself feel superior at other people’s expense, 3) work on keeping a group going that tells me I’m not like other people.”

“There are three forces in nature: first force-affirming, second force-denying, third force- you’re kicked out of the group”

“Payment is a principle means of making my living off your hard work so I can fuck your wife.”

“Schools are for people who need them and know they need someone else to make them feel special.”

“Other people are sleeping machines, not me.”

“If you can swallow the sly man’s pill, you can swallow anything.”

“The First Way is the Way of the Faker, the Second Way is the Way of the Pedophile, the Third Way is the Way of the Pretzel, the Fourth Way is My Way or the Highway.”

“Always blame it on the moon”.

“A influence is money, B influence is spending money on my books, C influence is paying me directly so I can fuck your wife while you are hard at work making money.”

“Remember me, always and everywhere.”

“Always verifabricate everything.”

“When you ask a man if he’s awake, in that moment he is, so don’t ask.”

“A buffer is the excuse your wife tells you after I fucked her.”

“When you are feeling bad, go photograph some one else.”

26. John Harmer - March 18, 2019

#16 Robert P. In your dispute with FDotFS over the particulars of Gurdjieff’s system, you make the following statement

“G. begins with a definition of an “atom” that differs from the definition given to an atom by contemporary science. He says his definition is based on objective science. He clearly knows the difference between the two.”

It is in this assertion that he is basing his statement on “objective science” that Gurdjieff reveals his lack of insight. Throughout history we can see that people have craved certainty, and have in the past looked to charismatic thinkers to supply it. It is the characteristic of religions to claim certain knowledge. I have found in my own interactions that those who are most certain are often the least intelligent.

Let’s examine the idea. Where can objective knowledge come from? If we think it might have come from men, how did they gain it? The Gurdjieff/Ouspensky answer is that it comes from higher mind. Supposedly once people in the inner circle of humanity had elevated their consciousness, they were able to see the world as it really is, without the illusions that plague ordinary people.

Or they got the knowledge from an even higher source, dictated by a supernatural being.

Now I find both those possibilities fanciful, but others may be inclined to believe in them. So to readers who are inclined to give credence to the Gurdjieff system I would point out a glaring omission in its “objective science” description of the universe. It was assembled before ordinary scientists had figured out that some Nebulae are in fact distant Galaxies. Before Hubble’s work was published in 1929, no one knew the immensity that we now have some inkling of.

Unlike nearly all previous systems of knowledge contemporary science does not claim to be complete. It is a work in progress, but it is precisely this unfinished nature that gives it such power.

27. Robert P. - March 18, 2019

I am finding it hard to keep up with all the posts – am beginning to feel like the apprentice in “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice”. Each time I chop one broom in half (someone’s question or comment), it transforms into two more. But here goes:

#23 (FDFS): I am happy to agree with you that neither of us is an authority on chemistry. The point remains that there nothing in your previous post (#13) that gives reason to believe that G. did not have a sound grasp of contemporary chemistry. G. is putting forth an alternate way of characterizing/categorizing the phenomena of the natural world. He is not asking anyone to believe what he says. He is asking people to keep an open mind about it until one is able to prove or disprove what he says for oneself.

#26 (John Harmer): The gist of what you say revolves around the question of how one can”know” and what one can know. You choose to limit the boundaries of what can be known to the phenomena of the sensory world (using the means of the five senses and the extensions of same that technology provides). If you are correct in your belief, then ordinary knowledge is all there is and higher knowledge is a fairy tale. On the other hand, G. says a person can develop a capacity for knowing that extends what one can know well beyond the reach of the ordinary. The means for developing such a heightened capacity for knowing is to search inwardly (not outwardly as the scientists and other materialists do).

28. Robert P. - March 18, 2019

I forgot to address #22 (FDFS): I have done a little reading on Lord Pentland. He was a student of Ouspensky for many years, not Gurdjieff. I consider that fact to be of great significance since Ouspensky confined himself to G.’s pre-1920’s teaching (and even to only the part of it that suited his intellectual bent), as represented in the book “In Search”. For reasons unknown, Pentland did however become the leader of the New York Gurdjieff Foundation from the 1950s to the early 1980s before leaving New York to set up a Foundation branch on the West Coast. After Pentland left (and maybe even before he left), Madame D’Salzmann became the de facto leader in New York and, over time, the New York group and the many groups affiliated with it have moved away from Pentland’s old school Ouspenskian ways.

Assuming your characterization of your experience with Pentland’s group is objectively correct, from what I have read of Pentland, it strikes me as possible that Pentland’s people might have acted like that back in the 1990s or, alternatively, that the people you dealt with may have been acting on their own accord. I cannot speak about Pentland’s group, then or now. I CAN say that I have not seen or heard of any such dubious practices during the ten + years time that I have been a member of two Foundation affiliated groups.

Your assertion that, “… those who represent them in public do not do so at their own volition. They are always under strict supervision. ” is simply not true. Your experience with one (and I stress that – one -) Gurdjieff Foundation group (Pentland’s group) appears to have been rather brief and, in any event, it was over 20 years ago. Based on that, you are in no position to opine on the current practices of the Gurdjiefff Foundation, its various groups and affiliated groups.

29. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 18, 2019

27. Robert P.

“#23 (FDFS): I am happy to agree with you that neither of us is an authority on chemistry.”

I at least knew that water was both a compound and a molecule. You insisted adamantly that it wasn’t. You don’t have even a high school grasp of the subject and yet directed a divisive tone toward my correct statements on the subject. Then you go so far as to make the following statement based on your basic ignorance of chemistry:

“The conclusion that can be drawn from this example (and I could provide more examples if I wished to waste more of my time disputing FDFS’ take on things) is that anything FDFS has to say about Gurdjieff or his teaching should be treated with extreme caution.”

What you need to do now if you possess any integrity in the least is admit your mistake and acknowledge that in fact you are the one that deserves to treated with extreme caution due to your lack of basic education.

30. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 18, 2019

28. Robert P.

“I forgot to address #22 (FDFS): I have done a little reading on Lord Pentland. He was a student of Ouspensky for many years, not Gurdjieff. I consider that fact to be of great significance since Ouspensky confined himself to G.’s pre-1920’s teaching (and even to only the part of it that suited his intellectual bent), as represented in the book “In Search”. For reasons unknown, Pentland did however become the leader of the New York Gurdjieff Foundation from the 1950s to the early 1980s before leaving New York to set up a Foundation branch on the West Coast.”

Lord Pentland was assigned to lead the Gurdjieff cult in America by Gurdjieff himself. Pentland was Gurdjieff’s companion during Gurdjieff’s dying months. I have never once encountered a Gurdjieffian who was unaware of this famous fact.

My guess from your surprising ignorance of the history of the Gurdjieff Foundation is that you are situated somewhere on the outer fringes of the lunatic fringe known as the Gurdjieff Foundation, provided with scant information and nevertheless satisfied with crumbs that dribble out to where you reside in the “work” of making yourself “conscious”.

31. Artemis44 - March 19, 2019

Where is brucelevy when you need him?

32. WhaleRider - March 19, 2019

Insider:
I would greatly appreciate if you could share your understanding of the current FOF party line of what exactly happens to the “lower self” when one is “being present”?

Do followers believe after all their years of hard work “being present” that the “lower self” will finally be extinguished once they have “crystallized” a “steward”?

(In my day it was “false personality vs. true personality” with the aim of extinguishing the “false” through “self-remembering” in a state of “non-Identificaton”. Only “false personality” expressed negative emotions.)

To the best of your knowledge, has burton ever revealed the nature of his relationship to his “lower self” in his highly evolved state? Does he claim not to have one any longer?

Do current followers believe “being fully present” vs. “asleep” is an either/or proposition…with the underlying assumption one cannot be both at the same time?

33. WhaleRider - March 19, 2019

Insider:
I would greatly appreciate if you could share your understanding of the current FOF party line of what exactly happens to the “lower self” when one is “being present”?

Do followers believe after all their years of hard work “being present” that the “lower self” will finally be extinguished once they have “crystallized” a “steward”?

(In my day it was “false personality vs. true personality” with the aim of extinguishing the “false” through “self-remembering” in a state of “non-Identificaton”. Only “false personality” expressed negative emotions.)

To the best of your knowledge, has burton ever revealed the nature of his relationship to his “lower self” in his highly evolved state? Does he claim not to have one any longer?

Do current followers believe “being fully present” vs. “asleep” is an either/or proposition…with the underlying assumption one cannot be both at the same time?

34. rich - March 19, 2019

Give up looking, take up tennis or yoga or something

35. Golden Veil - March 19, 2019

Or, the fine art of motorcycle riding.

Where is Tim Campion when you need him?

36. WhaleRider - March 19, 2019

Thanks for the advice, if you’re referring to moi, I already have enough physical activity, trust me, and sorry everyone for the double post, I have jet lag, and this is a burning issue for me, so I’ll take the hot seat on this.

I’m asking for insider’s input as a current member with his finger on the FOF pulse because Robert P apparently would rather split hairs with FDFS about ancient history than answer my question, RP being a fourth way aficionado and all.

This is also for professional reasons, in order to reveal what I believe is the biggest “formatory” lie of the FOF and the fourth way; that either one is exclusively “awake”, “present”, “self-aware”, “self-remembering”…or one is “asleep”, “unconscious”, “merely aware in an animalistic sense”…with nothing in between, the only variable in “being” based upon duration of time spent in such a state, relative to one’s ability to remain in a so-called neutral stance of “non-identification” about VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING (except one’s membership in a fourth way “school”, that is.)

And if there is such a brass ring, Golden Fleece, Holy Grail destination called “the fourth state of consciousness”, and burton claims to have reached that “level” by kissing the ass, I mean the feet of the Absolute, l’m darn sure that superstitution, magical thinking, and ideas of reference are not among those qualities of so-called, “cosmic consciousness” as Ouspensky claimed and for which we all at some point signed up on the FOF merry-go-round windmill crusade.

If anyone else, in or out, would like to share their option based upon their experience about the either/or, “sleep” or “awake” proposition, I would greatly appreciate it.

I’m pretty sure this part of the structure of the fourth way/FOF mental trap that gets tacitly assumed but never articulated, so please bear with me and give it some thought.

37. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 19, 2019

A long time (more than 30 years) member of the Gurdjieff Foundation once explained to me that the real reason Gurdjieff had sex and resulting children with married women in his cult was to help them and their husbands become free of their attachment with marriage. He was trying to help them escape their sleep.

38. rich - March 19, 2019

37.FDFS: shocking behavior for 20s and 30s morality

39. rich - March 19, 2019

37.FDFS: plus some of the women were more liberated
and didn’t but G.’s advances.

40. Cult Survivor - March 19, 2019

33. WhaleRider

To the best of your knowledge, has burton ever revealed the nature of his relationship to his “lower self” in his highly evolved state? Does he claim not to have one any longer?

I know the question was for Insider, a current member of the FOF, but I left in 2016 and to my knowledge things didn’t change in that area since then. Here are some comments of Burton about his lower self that I personally heard:

“Today I was having lunch and tried to separate the first bite but my lower self didn’t let me. When I finally managed to do it, my lower self became very negative and threw the flatware on the plate. That’s the nature of the being we are dealing with.”

“When I’m at a concert or ballet performance and my lower self wants me to go into imagination, I place the nail of my right thumb on the base of the nail of the left thumb and put pressure until it hurts. The lower self hates pain.”

“Last week an statue arrived and when they opened the box the head was separated from the body. I was fine, but my lower self became very negative and my machine was ill for two days”.

I’m certain that if a mental health professional reads the phrases above he will diagnose Burton with some kind of personality disorder.

41. Cult Survivor - March 20, 2019

37. Four Days of the Fourth State

When I was in the FOF I heard several times members saying that the fact that Burton can have sex with many heterosexual young boys is a proof that he is “free from feminine dominance”.

I also remember that when Dorian Matei and Mihai Algiu organized several threesomes with several young female members at the Galleria while Burton was traveling, I heard members saying things like: “Dorian and Mihai wanted to do what Robert does but they forgot a very important detail: they need to become conscious first.”

So if I understand correctly, Burton can have sex with many heterosexual young boys because he is conscious and free from feminine dominance but Dorian and Mihai can’t have threesomes in the Galleria with a few female students because they are not conscious and under feminine dominance. Interesting reasoning.

Anyway, when Dorian becomes conscious and free from feminine dominance he will be able to bring his buddy Mihai back to the FOF and finally have threesomes in the Galleria. I’m sure Mihai would be very happy to rejoin the FOF and have fun with Dorian — that’s probably much more exciting that being a marriage & family therapist in Grass Valley.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/algiu-mihai-grass-valley-ca/361141

42. WhaleRider - March 20, 2019

During my grooming process burton once asked me if my parents were still together, and I told them they had divorced. Whereupon he stated that “men and women get together for mechanical reasons”….

Cult Survivor:
Thank you for your post, that is very helpful, and I also appreciate that your quotes were first hand. Without personally interviewing burton first I can assure you a competent mental health professional would not make a diagnosis so readily based upon three statements like those above.

I feel it is more helpful to articulate what is assumed, inferred and unspoken during the grooming and indoctrination process, which involves a dance between perp and victim, rather than place the blame solely upon burton’s mental status.

(Originally diagnosis was not meant as a means to label a person, but as a tool to describe a set of behaviors in a patient in a language reserved for mental health professionals. Big Pharma has changed all that.)

I gather that burton still admits to having a “lower self” with which he still struggles against, has tantrums, and throws objects.

In the early days he was very overweight and probably had to struggle to let go of his fork or spoon, undoubtedly at times with a show of force.

He also has over the years been observed by followers having little tantrums when not getting his way, appearing as though he continues to express negativity in contradiction to his personna of advanced level of being, and therefore has to admit to or “buffer” that with his followers by blaming his “lower self”, like a person might blame “the devil” for their criminal behavior, in an effort to abdicate responsibility for their actions.

He also speaks in a way to include the listener in “what we are dealing with”, a strategic maneuver on his behalf so you feel on a level playing field, until he makes his sexual advances, leveraging his powerful status under the guise of “what c-influence wants”.

So I gather then that “being in a constant state of presence” as a reputed “man number 7.6” does not extinguish the “lower self”.

My question is: how does that differ from any other normal human being? Don’t we all struggle with impulse control, some more successfully than others?

It is also telling that when the statue for which he probably paid a great deal of money art arrived decapitated, although he claimed, “I was fine, but my machine was ill for three days” indicates how his unexpressed “negative” emotion of disappointment, anger, grief, or sadness greatly effected his physical health.

Normally a person might say, “I was sick with grief for three days”. But burton’s carefully worded statement leaves the impression he’s not “identified” with his body, as you should not be either, of course, when he makes his moves on you.

As far as the “lower self” hating pain, while it it true that pain can force our awareness into the present, it also seems we humans tend to stay in “unconscious” addictive, masochistic patterns of behavior despite the physical and emotional pain it causes ourselves and others.

43. rich - March 20, 2019

41.Cult Survivor: “I heard members saying things like ‘Dorian and Mihai wanted to do what Robert does but they forgot a very
important detail: they need to become conscious first.’ “.

The important lesson is being ‘developed’ excuses behavior
from farting to sexual abuse, braking marriages and fleecing
thousands. The rest of us need to pay the piper.

44. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 20, 2019

Views from the Wrong World
An in-depth review of:
Views from the Real World
(Book, Early Talks of G. I. Gurdjieff)

“Glimpses of Truth”

(Random quotes from the pages of Glimpses of Truth):

“But with a knowledge of the laws of proportion in the
human body, not only could the end of Gogol’s nose have been
reconstructed from the mask but the whole of his body could
have been built up exactly as it had been from the nose alone.”

“Today I briefly examined the law of the octave. You saw
that with knowledge of this law the place of everything is
known and, vice versa, if the place is known, one knows what
exists there and its quality. Everything can be calculated, only
one must know how to calculate the passage from one octave
to another. The human body, like everything that is a whole,
bears in itself this regularity of measurement. In accordance
with the number of notes of the octave and with the intervals,
the human body has nine principal measurements expressed in
definite numbers. For individual persons these numbers vary
very much—of course within certain limits. The nine principal
measurements, giving an entire octave of the first order, are
transmuted into the subordinate octaves which, by a wide extension
of this subordinate system, give all the measurements
of any part of the human body.”

“Every note of an octave is itself a whole octave. Consequently
it is necessary to know the rules of correlation and combination,
and of transition from one scale to another. Everything is combined
by an indissoluble, unchangeable regularity of law. It is as though,
around every point, nine more subordinate points were grouped;
and so on to the atoms of the atom.”

There is not one adult living on the Earth who has developed an ordinary level of competency of common sense, forged from experience and extrapolated from study, who does not fully understand at first glance that the occult fairy tale explained above is pure fantasy.

Let’s make sure what Gurdjieff has said in his drawn-out explanation: from just the shape of part of the nose it is possible through the use of the technology of octaves, while accurately employing a system of nine principal measurements, to precisely reconstruct the entire body of an individual. You’d have to be a rather slow and a particularly pixie infested teenager to accept for even a second that such a thing is possible. Back in 1914 when modern science was not generally well known or understood, especially in places like Russia where there lived many tragic, dreamy romantics, you could with a straight face offer someone such a load of fabrication and actually expect them to accept it. These recorded words from a cult glorifying book of baloney exposed to light 100 years later seem so naive and far-fetched that it is impossible to fathom how anyone could take such blatant magical thinking seriously.

“Not only can the nose be reconstructed from the face alone,
but also from the nose the entire face and body of a man
can be reconstructed inexorably and exactly.”

“This is more exact than mathematics, because here you do
not meet with probabilities, and it is achieved not by study of
mathematics but by a study of a far deeper and broader kind.
It is understanding which is needed. In a conversation without
understanding, it is possible to talk for decades on the simplest
questions without coming to any result.”

Gurdjieff was a charlatan, part madman and part con artist, who had the knack of making others believe that he himself believed his own lies. Gurdjieff was a calculating manipulator who hypnotized people with fantastic claims and then mercilessly used such people once they were stupefied and wondrously impressed with his overbearing self-confidence.

Not once did anyone think to bring Gurdjieff a casting of the nose of a friend and see if the boastful Gurdjieff could reconstruct in plaster an exact replica of the living person. All the glazed-over followers simply assumed that such tests were unnecessary because all that dripped out of the magician’s mouth was pure gold.

45. Robert P. - March 20, 2019

FDFS in #29 responding to my post at #16: “I at least knew that water was both a compound and a molecule. You insisted adamantly that it wasn’t. … What you need to do now if you possess any integrity in the least is admit your mistake…”

Me at #16, 3rd paragraph: “H2O is both a molecule (because it has two hydrogen atoms) and a compound (because it contains both hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom).”

In the matter of admitting one’s mistakes, the shoe is on the other foot now FDFS.

46. Robert P. - March 20, 2019

Reply to FDFS #30:

I am well aware of the “famous fact” that G. appointed Pentland to lead the New York Foundation. The question is: Why? My understanding is that Pentland spent very little time with Gurdjieff and only after Ouspensky died in 1947 (G. died in 1949). Pentland’s appointment was similar to Bennett’s appointment to lead the London Foundation. Bennett also spent very little time with G. I am sure G. had good reasons for these decisions but it appears he took his reasons to his grave.

47. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 20, 2019

16. Robert P.

Exhibit #1: “H2O is both a molecule (because it has two hydrogen atoms) and a compound (because it contains both hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom).” -Robert P.

Exhibit #2: ““… a molecule of the chemical compound dihydrogen monoxide…” is nonsensical since it is impossible by definition to have a molecule of a chemical compound.”

Exhibit #3: ” “…water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen combined to form a molecule.” is clearly wrong. What is formed is a chemical compound, not a molecule.” -Robert P.

You stated a fact, that water is both molecule and compound, but then made two arguments against that fact. In the course of what could only be a minute, you forgot that water is both molecule and compound and accused me of being stupid for previously stating what you has just correctly stated yourself. -Robert P.

Now, here you are ignoring two arguments you made against scientific reality while pretending that you only ever made the first correct statement.

All this in a desperate attempt to save face. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Robert P. and 10 years worth the Gurdjieff work against false personality.

I caution you to take nothing this person says seriously. He has no integrity.

(Note water is a molecule not because it has two hydrogen atoms, even though that alone would still make it a molecule. Water also has an oxygen atom in a molecular bond to the two bonded hydrogen atoms)

48. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 20, 2019

46. Robert P.

“The question is: Why? My understanding is that Pentland spent very little time with Gurdjieff and only after Ouspensky died in 1947”

Now you fail the history test. World War Two, the Nazis occupy France and cut Paris off from the rest of the world.

49. Cult Survivor - March 20, 2019

The plot thickens…

Whether something is a molecule or not depends on the type of bond that is formed when its atoms join together. In general, electrons can be shared between atoms (a molecular bond) or electrons can be completely removed from one atom and given to another (an ionic bond). Molecules have molecular bonds.

Whether something is a compound or not depends on how many different kinds of elements make it up. Compounds contain two or more different elements.

Water (H2O) is a molecule because it contains molecular bonds. Water is also a compound because it is made from more than one kind of element (oxygen and hydrogen). If you like, you can say that water is a molecular compound.

Something like table salt (NaCl) is a compound because it is made from more than one kind of element (sodium and chlorine), but it is not a molecule because the bond that holds NaCl together is an ionic bond. If you like, you can say that sodium chloride is an ionic compound.

Oxygen in the atmosphere is a molecule because it contains molecular bonds. It is not a compound because it is made from atoms of only one element (oxygen). This type of molecule is called a diatomic molecule, a molecule made from two atoms of the same type.

Source:
https://education.jlab.org/qa/molecule_01.html

50. phutatorius - March 20, 2019

41, cult survivor: OMG! I was in a sex cult, “Burmesquick,” for 4 1/2 years and was celibate the whole time? WTF was I thinking?!!!

51. Insider - March 20, 2019

33. WhaleRider

“Insider:
I would greatly appreciate if you could share your understanding of the current FOF party line of what exactly happens to the ‘lower self’ when one is ‘being present’?”

Subjects like this are never discussed. Too theoretical. People are told repeatedly that the “state of essence presence” is practically the same as “being conscious.” And what is “essence presence?” Looking like a “conscious being:” smiling, sitting nicely, dressed well, eating properly.

* * * * * * * * * *

“Do followers believe after all their years of hard work ‘being present’ that the ‘lower self” will finally be extinguished once they have ‘crystallized’ a ‘steward’?”

In theory (but no one actually studies or discusses this anymore), it’s the “astral body” that “crystallizes,” not the steward. In 4th way theory. Here’s what most people believe: They are given 9 lifetimes. Most are on their 8th lifetime. If they keep doing what they have been doing, they will enter “paradise” at the conclusion of their 9th lifetime. That’s it.

* * * * * * * * * *

“(In my day it was ‘false personality vs. true personality’ with the aim of extinguishing the ‘false’ through ‘self-remembering’ in a state of ‘non-Identificaton’. Only ‘false personality’ expressed negative emotions.)”

Nowadays, the battle is between “presence” (including “performing the sequence”) and “imagination” (the “lower self”). “False personality” is no longer studied, observed, or photographed. There is no “line of work” resembling “purification” (i.e. “work on features” in the old days). Especially with new members, but to a large extent with old ones, too, self-observation is neither taught nor practiced.

* * * * * * * * * *

“To the best of your knowledge, has burton ever revealed the nature of his relationship to his ‘lower self” in his highly evolved state? Does he claim not to have one any longer?”

In his public act (at meetings, dinners, etc.), Burton pretends to be just about nothing but pure consciousness, that his “lower self” is no longer an issue. He does not actually say he does not have a lower self. People are led to believe (and willingly do so) that Burton is past pleasure and pain, desires and fears, and is fully accepting of anything that comes his way. (This last point is so laughable, that an entire thread needs to be devoted to refuting this belief.)

* * * * * * * * * *

“Do current followers believe ‘being fully present’ vs. ‘asleep’ is an either/or proposition…with the underlying assumption one cannot be both at the same time?

Yes, I think you correctly state the current belief of most members. They are taught by Burton not to engage the “lower self,” not to argue with it, not to give it any attention. The “lower self” is simply not a topic to be discussed in polite company. Whether it goes away, goes to sleep, or whatever, is unimportant. The point is to ignore it by “being present,” whatever, or however misguided, that is.

52. Insider - March 20, 2019

41. Cult Survivor

I don’t think it was proper (certainly not kind) of you to mention Mihai and his practice. Are you trying to ruin his professional life? So you obviously have old accounts against him. But what you are trying to do to him is just plain nasty and wrong. And, to be clear, I am no fan or supporter of Mihai. No contact with him whatsoever.

53. Cult Survivor - March 20, 2019

52. Insider

I don’t have any “old accounts” against Mihai Algiu, I just don’t think that he is qualified to be a marriage & family therapist after the sexual deviations that he showed when he was a member of the FOF.

This is similar to the case of Girard Haven being on the board of directors of the children school in Oregon House and visiting porn sites depicting girls that look underage on his computer, as it was reported here by his former wife Clara and a person that repaired his computer.

I remember that the last time that Girard’s case was reported here a person said that Girard has the right to have his private life. According to that reasoning, we shouldn’t discuss here that Robert Burton has sex with many heterosexual young men because that’s a violation of Burton’s private life. Oh yes, people shouldn’t also be talking about Donald Trump having sex with pornstars and Playboy playmates because that’s Trump’s private life.

Please note that this is not a case of libel of calumny — I don’t know about Donald Trump, but I’m 100% certain that what was reported here about Robert Burton, Girard Haven and Mihai Algiu is true.

54. Phutatorius - March 20, 2019

Re 52 & 41: also possibly libelous. I would be careful.

55. brucelevy - March 20, 2019

52. Insider

Mihai received his degree and “license” from an online institution a couple years ago. I have no doubt that he’s the same predator that he was in the fof. And I don’t know him. Just what I’ve read here and readily available information from his own public site. Also, it’s not libel if it’s true. And the “reviews” from the online institution sound like they are barely literate.

56. Cult Survivor - March 20, 2019

Thank you, Bruce. Defending sick individuals like Girard Haven and Mihai Algiu on this blog is hypocritical to say the least.

57. WhaleRider - March 20, 2019

Insider:
Thank you kindly for your post.

As I suspected FOF followers have been indoctrinated to believe if they act a certain way (in essence presence) they will go to paradise because they are in their 8th life time, and if they falter in their act, they might not.

This is cause/effect magical thinking-if I think these thoughts or perform this or avoid that ritualistic behavior, and then this will happen or not happen, which to those outside the delusional system seems bizarre or ridiculous, like “don’t step on a crack, you’ll break your mother’s back”. The underlying emotion is fear.

(Examples of “ideas of reference” are believing words, numbers or images in street signs, license plates or advertising are messages directed at one personally from disembodied spirit guides.)

It appears burton and the FOF have weaponized the word “imagination” to refer to any dissenting thought that confronts, deviates, or contradicts the status quo, am I right? It is presumed that imagination would lead one out of the group and must be avoided at all cost.

It is so fascinating (and sad) to see such imagination at work in the FOF!

This is often the case with unconscious behavior, that in order to protect and defend the frail ego an individual will project outwardly the very same character flaw onto “others”, in this case non-members or life people, in which they themselves have invested so dearly. Most people can see this with the fraudster and pathological liar Trump and “fake news” or “crooked Hillary”.

IMO, it is the delusion that “either one is in essence presence or else in imagination” that is the most dangerous unspoken meme which the FOF deploys on its followers, leading them astray and giving them a false sense of entitlement. It is simply not true, IMO; one is both conscious and unconscious to some degree either way in the spectrum of awareness at any given point in time.

The mitigating factor is to understand that unconscious behavior patterns are just that-unconscious and unseen by the individual and in some cases, whole groups of people…AKA “group think”.

For a folower to believe a person such as burton is pure consciousness is simply a delusion due to low self-esteem and a deep, unresolved narcissistic wound, which sets up an unconscious behavior in followers that gives burton permission to continue wounding them, which is what he did to me until I left and worked on resolving my own wounding by my father.

Why, one may ask, is burton obsessed with asserting his power by having sex with heterosexual men, unrepently wounding them and sometimes their wives? What motivates this inconscious, obsessive behavior? IMO, deep down he was probably wounded or made to feel inadequate regarding his homosexuality by a heterosexual male, probably Alex Horn or by the absence of his father whom he has never talked about.

But if he acts a certain way, like an “infallible conscious being”, everything will be fine, his frail ego will remain intact, he can act on his homosexual impulses with impunity…at the expense of others. To him, defending his act is a matter of life or death, which is probably where the apocalyptic predictions stem.

58. Robert P. - March 20, 2019

Reply to #47 (FDFS):

In regard to these two statements of mine that you excerpted from my post #16:

Exhibit #2: “ “… a molecule of the chemical compound dihydrogen monoxide…” is nonsensical since it is impossible by definition to have a molecule of a chemical compound.”

I stand corrected. Your statement can be simplified to, “.. a molecule of dihydrogen monoxide.” or, more simply, “a molecule of water”. There is nothing wrong with it.

Exhibit #3: ” “…water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen combined to form a molecule.” is clearly wrong. What is formed is a chemical compound, not a molecule.”

I stand corrected on this one as well, but with a caveat. Your statement is not wrong but could have been worded better. It is more accurate to say the two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen combine to form a chemical compound, namely water, which (because it contains bonded atoms) is a molecule.

Since, in my post #16, these two statements of yours were used by me as the basis to impugn your take on G. and his teaching, I will have to take that back as well. That, of course, does not in the least change my view that your take on G. and his teaching is completely off base.

59. Robert P. - March 20, 2019

Reply to #48 (FDFS):

Really? The war was the reason that Pentland did not work with G. until 1948 or 1949? The Nazis occupied France for about 4 years from 1940 to 1944. G.’s teaching spanned the period from 1912 to 1949.

60. WhaleRider - March 20, 2019

Cult Survivor:
Who knows, is it possible “insider” could be Mihai’s alter ego attempting to redeem himself?

People do make mistakes. Could you imagine what you might do that you otherwise would not if for instance you were in different circumstances, like in prison?

To me, Mihai’s behavior is understandable, given Mihai’s role model. I hear the ceiling murals in the galleria are quite suggestive!

The question remains whether or not he learns from his mistakes and continues to abuse a position of power to exploit others like burton does. Braverman is in the same boat.

If I was still in the FOF, unmarried, and those ladies were indeed uncoerced and willing, to be honest, I’d probably feel a bit jealous of Mihai.

Haven might be a different story, but “underage looking” women is not necessarily child porn. On the other hand, a porn addiction can be a sign of deeper issues he’s avoiding.

61. Cult Survivor - March 20, 2019

60. WhaleRider

If I was still in the FOF, unmarried, and those ladies were indeed uncoerced and willing, to be honest, I’d probably feel a bit jealous of Mihai.
Too bad that the husband of one of the ladies that didn’t accept Mihai and Dorian’s invitation didn’t had your “scale and relativity” — he called Robert and then hell broke lose.

Haven might be a different story, but “underage looking” women is not necessarily child porn.
We are talking legalities here. What’s the difference between somebody getting excited watching a girl that is 15 years old having sex (child porn) and another person getting excited watching a girl that looks 15 but is actually 18 (legal age porn)? From the point of view of the person watching is the same situation.

I’m sure that Clara, Girard’s former wife, agrees with me since she used the expression “Girard is addicted to child porn” when she reported the fact here.

62. Associated Press - March 21, 2019

60. WhaleRider
“If I was still in the FOF, unmarried, and those ladies were indeed uncoerced and willing. . .”

The women were paid to participate by using the Fellowship of Friends (FoF) internal currency known as ‘Vouchers.’

For more on Vouchers, go to:
Robert Earl Burton and The Fellowship of Friends
An Unauthorized Blogography of “The Teacher” and His Cult
where the recent activities have been posted showing how vouchers are typically redeemed. How they are earned may be a very different story. (Do what Teacher likes and you might earn vouchers for it; where Robert Earl Burton is, supposedly, the sole (or, is that soul) redeemer for such earnings.)

The women, allegedly, were severely punished for the dalliance even though they were persuaded to participate (i.e.: not the first force). The men, allegedly, got the naughty look from Robert Earl Burton and sent on their way chastised not to do it again.

63. WhaleRider - March 21, 2019

Cult Survivor:
I see what you mean. If I were the husband, I’d be pissed, too. Mihai may have indeed violated a boundary if he used his position of power to manipulate or proposition someone’s wife into an illicit affair…if wife swapping or threesomes with married women or men were outside the norm. You would have more information on what the current norm is in the FOF having left much more recently than I.

Nevertheless, his role model burton has sex with married men…which is probably why he wasn’t booted out.

Suffice to say, using his position of power as a therapist to have sex with his patients would definitely be a violation of ethical standards of practice.

I may be wrong, but I consider “child porn” to be about prepubescent children and younger viewed by pedophiles, à la Michael Jackson, who might fantasize or act out the molestation of young childen…not developed teenagers pretending to be adults or 18 year olds who present as teenagers in a sexual role playing scenario.

So it’s not just legalities we’re talking about. There are porn sites that are billed as “teenie sex” or use “barely legal” women to cater to a sexual fantasy but are not considered child pornography. Someone discovering these sites for the first time on another person’s computer may have been in shock and jumped to conclusions.

That fact that Haven’s ex-wife with either a grudge or a proclivity for exaggeration reported it here doesn’t make it so. Now, I’m no fan of Haven, but she may have had an agenda in calling it, “child porn”.

Had it been actual child pornography which is not only immoral, but illegal, too, the appropriate action would be to notify the police, not post it on this blog.

Without evidence, we do not know. I imagine Haven in his present state would lack the technical abilities to navigate the internet in order to view child porn in such a way as to avoid getting caught by the authorities, don’t you think? The guy can barely hold his chain of thought.

64. WhaleRider - March 21, 2019

Associated Press:
It’s sad to think the “offending” women were put in a position to have to prostitute themselves for vouchers and victims of a double standard of consequences than the men.

What’s laughable is how the holy hypocrite must have reacted to the thought of the holy temple of conscious gay rape sex being desecrated by men and women engaging in “mechanical sex”.

I bet it created memory for the men and women, and made burton’s “machine” ill for three days!

65. Cult Survivor - March 21, 2019

WhaleRider:

There was a surge of wife swapping and threesomes around 2003-2004, but that kind of activities practically disappeared after the tragic death of a female member in a car accident because she and her husband were the main organizers of the local “swingers’ club”. Her husband tried to continue the swinging activities without her with very limited success but after the nefarious Mihai-Dorian episode people were just too scared.

Just for clarification, the presence in Girard’s computer of links to sites with “barely legal” teenagers performing sex acts was reported by somebody that fixed Girard’s computer, not by his wife at the time. We actually don’t know what she saw. Without evidence, we do not know, as you said. On the other hand, we don’t want to rule out possibilities.

66. WhaleRider - March 21, 2019

Cult Survivor:
Based upon what was said, I would highly recommend against repeating the assertion in a public forum that Haven is “addicted to child porn” because it infers that Haven might be a pedophile, which is a serious accusation. So in fact, I would rule out that possibility.

Addicted to porn, maybe, if he was a daily consumer for at least an hour per day over the course of a month or two, it has a negative impact on his job performance or finances or relationships, lead to other unhealthy behaviors like chronic masturbation or frequenting sex workers, and wanted to stop looking at porn but couldn’t. The computer tech person woukdn’t know any of that, is this what his wife was claiming? Maybe, maybe not.

Still, it doesn’t bode well for one of the supposed leaders of the FOF Church.

67. Cult Survivor - March 21, 2019

Whalerider:

Sounds like common sense to me.

Something I forgot to mention is that after divorcing Clara Girard married an Eastern European woman 40 years younger than him. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but I think it is relevant to the topic we are discussing to mention that.

68. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 21, 2019

Why do people believe there is life after death? They believe it because they’ve been brainwashed, indoctrinated, with the idea since childhood. Also, it is simply natural to want to continue to exist forever. This popular belief in the urban myth that there is life after death is entirely a desperate hope. It is wishful thinking. There is no logical reason to believe death is not the end of the line for the separate awareness that is “you”. Why wouldn’t existence end when the brain dies? The only reason it wouldn’t is the magical thinking tradition of a mysterious soul that defies all scientific reason. Once the traditional magical thinking concept of life after death is dismissed as myth then all the other magical thinking concepts surrounding that myth disappear as well. Do you need to “remember yourself and be present” so that your soul will develop and survive the “shock” of death”? Do you need to become permanently conscious in order to become a man number 5 and escape death by becoming immortal? All this Fourth Way urban legend type cult nonsense is magical thinking based on the hope of life after death. One of the reasons this fourth way idiocy collects followers is because they are indoctrinated by society at a young age using myths that originated with the Greeks and were originally institutionalized into “reality” by the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholics plagiarized the ancient Greek fairy tales and originally demanded their captive church goers believe these Greek myths or suffer death.

In Greek mythology there is the legend of Hades. Hades is both a place and a god. The place Hades in mythology is gloomy and the eternal underground abode of the dead. Unfortunate characters can enter Hades but only a handful of heroes have the ability to ever leave. Now, in Hades there is a deep abyss known as the dungeon of Tartarus. Those who commit unpardonable crimes and are found to be too terrible to live among the usual dark ones populating Hades are condemned to the dungeons of Tartarus (tartar, accumulations of rancid food and rotten debris, has its origin in this Greek word). King Sisyphus is doomed to Tartarus for being inhospitable and even murderous to his guests. Sisyphus is doomed to eternal pointless toil. King Tantalus is also doomed to the dungeon of Tartarus for the crime of cannibalism. Tantalus is doomed to forever hunger for the delights that taunt and titillate him by dangling always just out of his reach. King Ixion is doomed to Tartarus for lusting after and ravishing another’s wife. Ixion is bound to an ever spinning flaming wheel of passion deep in the abyss. The Danaides murdered their husbands and are forced to carry water to fill a bath in Tartarus that is flawed with cracks so that their task is endless. Tityos was a rapist and is doomed to Tartarus where vultures come each day to eat his liver.

Hades is also a god. Hades is known as the Unseen One. Hades wears the Helm of Darkness, which renders him invisible to the sight of all, even the gods themselves. Hades is infamous for dragging the innocent virgin Persephone out of her springtime fields of play down into the underworld where he rapes her and forces her to become his wife, the Queen of Shades. In her distraught state of grief Persephone’s mother Demeter, who is in charge of maintaining the gardens, the crops and the landscape, allows the world to wither into the long months of fall and winter until Persephone is allowed to return home for six months of the year, whereupon spring and summer ensue.

The Roman Christians plagiarized this ancient Greek myth and now refer to the fairy-tale/fable of Hades in their creation myth/worldview as Hell and the Devil, Satan.

In Greek mythology there is the legend of Asphodel Meadows. This is a realm in the underworld where the ghostly glow of the Asphodel flowers blooming in the night fields lights the otherwise dim, foggy world where the average and the mediocre wander perpetually seeking a purpose for their existence. Asphodel Meadows is a perpetual holding pen of neutrality and mediocrity where the denizens are neither good nor bad, neither productive nor destructive, and thus do not entirely deserve being condemned to Hades or Tartarus. It is a place of pointless existence, existence that merely marks time. Those existing in Asphodel Meadows have all made the mistake of drinking from the River of Lethe, the River of Forgetfulness. Such characters can never learn from their mistakes and make wiser choices because they cannot remember the lessons of the past.

The Roman Christians plagiarized this ancient Greek myth of Asphodel Meadows and now refer to it as Purgatory.

In Greek mythology there is the legend of Elysian Fields. Elysian Fields is the home of the chosen of the gods and dwelling there is the ultimate reward for those who accomplished greatness in life and became heroes. Elysian Fields in ancient Greek mythology was the realm of perpetual enjoyment and fulfillment. It was also referred to as the Island of the Blessed. Elysian Fields is the original Garden of Paradise where every good thing and need is provided by a favorable and bountiful climate and those dwelling there need do no labor other than find eternal pleasure and peace. Elysian is also depicted as the resting place of those who were struck by thunderbolts from the sky god Zeus. In Greek mythology Zeus is the Sky God ruling over the world with thunder, wind, rain and light. (The etymology of elysion is unclear. … The etymology of the Greek root Elusios has been much debated. Some posit a pre-Greek (“Pelasgian”) origin. Another suggestion is that it is derived from the Greek word meaning ‘struck by lightning’, enelusios, on the view that death by lightning signified immediate deification).

The Roman Christians plagiarized this ancient Greek myth of Elysian Fields and refer to it as Heaven. The Roman Christians also plagiarized the ancient Greek myth of Zeus, the Sky God, and now refer to the Greek legend as God, or Lord.

The Roman Catholic Church originally forced this delusional reality on the Western population of Europe through ruthless indoctrination and through fear in the form of the threat of eternal damnation in Hades, or worse, in Tartarus–a special place in Hell.

69. Artemis44 - March 21, 2019

And the connection with the Fourth Way and/or the FOF is…? Oh wait, you are the famous Greg Goodwin… no need to explain, it’s ok.

By the way, is water a molecule or a compound? Just kidding 🙂

70. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 21, 2019

On the Origin of the Love God

Human babies are born with a proportionately large head (30% of adult size, circumference about 13 1/2 inches) in order to facilitate the gradual development of the characteristic enlarged human brain. The human head exits the womb attached to a body so immature that the newborn is unable to support its own weight upright. If left in the womb much longer than nine months the baby’s skull would have difficulty fitting through the birth canal. Human babies are born physically helpless because the skull has to pass out of the mother before it becomes too large to exit. Another reason for a nine month birth period is the tremendous metabolic demand put on the body of a mother gestating a child with a brain growing at a remarkable rate (head growth to an average of 18 inches in one year after conception).

Other mammal babies with much lower brain proportion to body size are in many cases able to rise on their legs minutes after birth and instinctively run through the thick brush keeping up with their mothers. For the sake of delivering a large head containing an outsized brain through a limited birth canal the human animal births its offspring with a body that takes months to develop enough to even be able to walk. A chimpanzee baby can climb around in trees and cling to its moving mother’s back at one year old while a human one year old is just taking its first steps. Evolution gradually decided through a series of experimental species of pre-human primates that humans must tend to their children for an extended period of time, allowing the large human brain to develop enough in conjunction with the body so that the late teen pre-adult can begin to fend for itself. Why do humans agree to do this long penance of childrearing? What has nature done to insure human parental care and stability for up to 17 years or longer?

Humans inherently possess far more of a sense of parental responsibility than virtually any other mammal because the feeling of maternal attachment is strong enough to last decades, indeed, a lifetime. Evolution built a creature able to so adore its own reproductive replications that it commits to nearly two decades of self-sacrifice in order to insure the survival of a primate with far more brain capacity than any other animal.

Nature developed as a species-wide survival mechanism in human beings the psychological artifact of altruistic emotion, insuring that typical adults will raise their children throughout major and critical portions of their peak adult lives. The emotion of love a mother has especially for her own particular offspring evolved originally as a survival mechanism required in order to maintain the life of a child primate that needs more than a decade and a half of care to develop the full intelligence necessary to take on life independently. Parents gaze at their children, who in many ways resemble them and mirror their mannerisms, and are typically overcome with overwhelming affectionate emotion as they perceive the unique adorableness of their particular creations. The complicated human nervous system running forward through the heart, lungs and stomach experiences the satisfying sensations of parental affection and pride as sophisticated endocrine glands release the vital hormones of dopamine, oxytocin and vasopressin into the brain. These internally produced drugs have a profound effect on the brain and render the parent love-stuck to such an extent that they willingly sacrifice their personal freedom for the sake of the next generation. At the same time, the society surrounding each individual family supports and indeed glorifies the production of children and venerates all the institutions necessary to form the developing minds and bodies into new families. At nearly 8 billion individuals worldwide this evolutionary gamble where parents invest an unusual amount of resources into a relatively few surviving offspring is obviously a success from the point of view of humans. From the point of view of the many other forms of nature the success of so many humans is obviously detrimental.

Without evolution’s powerful emotional psychological appliances built into these breeding human animals, arrived at through trial-and-error series of pre-human experiments, then each human individual’s innate egocentric instinct for self-centered self-preservation would inevitably override the extraordinary requirements of expending large portions of time and energy needed to provide for these demanding external genetic reproductions. Without the chemistry based biologically mindless impulse of human love then the human mind, fitted as it is in a proportionally large cranium, would not have survived to over-populate the world as a destructive, invasive species. Mammalian warm-blooded emotions originally developed in order to maintain and advance the furbearing, milk producing populations, especially the human population where the offspring require the better part of two decades of external care in order to successfully survive on their own.

As the human race developed, in the very beginning primarily due to the required technical innovation demanded by (and the physiological consequences resulting from) actively hunting, cooking and eating meat, the nerve-ladened biology of the emotional constitution also developed and evolved. For instance, the social consciousness required for the development of cooperative group endurance expanded the innate emotional fixation beyond the usual small immediate family out into the survival-necessary communal family. People began to love the members of their particular clan of survivors in a similar way that they love their children and parents. Invariably the emergent large communal family was bound together by a similarity of purpose, usually psychologically illustrated by a collectively believed and revered creation myth. Clans sharing the same religion, the same idealistic emotional reason for existing, were far more motivated and successful than those banding together merely as a convenience for hunting. Clans psychologically bonded together through religious emotion cooperated far more successfully than those that came together just to survive. The initial primal emotion meant originally for the motivation and endurance needed for raising young soon evolved into sweeping social agreements sworn between individuals bound together under the same psychopathic group fantasy. The signature emotional element among these religious groups is the narcissistic group certainty that creation had them in mind as the main purpose of existence from the very beginning of time. The psychopathic emotion shared by each religiously bonded group is that they are the reason the world exists.

Is there really a doting God looking after his adult children with the same sense of obligation and emotive intensity that adult humans look after their children? Is the myth of creation realistic when it is depicted as a giant magical mirror mimicking human life? Is there really a Father God? Are humans really the beneficiaries of an invisible powerful parenting benevolence that insures that the human race will grow to responsible maturity? Does the universe have a compassionate God creator who formed a special terrarium just for the benefit of his pet likenesses? Is this emotional insistence on anthropomorphizing the universe in the form of a vast and all powerful mythic father figure really anything more than the ingenious biological/psychological contraption of evolution known under the term ‘emotion’ taken to the extreme and manifestly gone mad?

71. Artemis44 - March 21, 2019

Yup, just like herpes as Bruce said.

72. ton2u - March 21, 2019
73. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 21, 2019
74. Ill Never Tell - March 21, 2019
75. brucelevy - March 21, 2019

73. Four Days of the Fourth State

Does that image intimate that you are not Greg, but you might as well be, and are suffering the same personality disorders? If so, my apologies to Greg.

76. WhaleRider - March 21, 2019

I suppose there is some merit exposing recently liberated cult members to the harsh realities and complexities of life, helping them to adjust, if they choose to share their experiences here.

In life, negative emotions are a means of setting boundaries, like the police sometimes have to do.

I imagine for most cult members our harshness might also motivate them to stay within the comfort of the cult-womb.

Let us be aware that for an individual with an antisocial personality disorder or other mental illness such as NHP reports to be suffering from…the internet is like meth.

It’s not going to bring out the best in them, especially in an open forum like this.

So think about how you’d want to be treated if you were a chronic mentally ill person on meth.

77. WhaleRider - March 21, 2019

Instead of treating a Greg-like person as an object of derision, “a moving source of an evil radiation” as Gurdjieff would say, what if you could divide your attention…and be aware of yourself in Greg and Greg in yourself?

In some respects it’s up to us to model how life can be outside the cult…we are the survivors.

78. Cult Survivor - March 21, 2019

76. WhaleRider

In life, negative emotions are a means of setting boundaries, like the police sometimes have to do.
The moderator of a blog is supposed to play the role of the police in real life. That’s what moderators do in other online forums that I am part of. Of course, that would require a large investment of time and energy from the moderator that this blog can’t afford.

At the same time, I feel that a police-style moderator is not required in our case — this blog is mature enough to monitor itself regarding negativity, personal attacks, etc., partly because of the more advanced age of the participants and partly because it’s composed of “spiritual” people.

The cat it the bag are people with mental disorders, since in my experience those tend to become more acute with age and are more frequent is “spiritual” groups. That’s the bad news. The good news is that mental disorders are periodic in most cases, meaning that they follow a tidal behavior, as most people that have been on this blog for a while probably already verified.

One thing is certain: engaging with the person that is posting from a disorder prolongs the manifestation.

79. Cult Survivor - March 21, 2019

77. WhaleRider
Instead of treating a Greg-like person as an object of derision, “a moving source of an evil radiation” as Gurdjieff would say, what if you could divide your attention…and be aware of yourself in Greg and Greg in yourself?
I admire your scale and relativity.

In some respects it’s up to us to model how life can be outside the cult…we are the survivors.
Amen.

80. Golden Veil - March 22, 2019

Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion
Posted by fofblogmoderator

“At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, such as personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion anonymously will prompt a warning. Continued abuse will result in your removal from the discussion.”

81. pseudonym sid - March 22, 2019

Quite a turn of tone and blog hogging these days.

82. Wondering Who's Watching - March 22, 2019

Originally aired on SundanceTV, November 2018,
on 40th anniversary, replaying soon:
JONESTOWN: ‘Terror in the Jungle’ Official Trailer 1:11
(I found 8 short segments; begin here):

83. Wondering Who's Watching - March 22, 2019
84. Insider - March 22, 2019

82, 83

For those Fellowship followers who still think Robert Burton is the epitome of spiritual development, refinement, and sanity, don’t forget about the very recent display of Burton publicly imitating and humiliating a devoted follower who committed the high crime of moving his arms while speaking:

85. Golden Veil - March 22, 2019

4. Insider – March 22, 2019

RB is just another narcissist who diminishes others.

86. Insider - March 22, 2019

85. Golden Veil

At the same time, I don’t side with the “unfortunate young man.” He’s been put on “leaves of absence” before (which happened again with this incident), but keeps coming back for more. Being in the Fellowship, he is paid to practice piano and perform, does not have to work in “life,” and gets one babe after another, often Russian ones (for what that’s worth). So once again, Burton does not keep it going on his own. It takes two to make a cult.

87. Golden Veil - March 22, 2019

86. Insider – March 22, 2019

Excellent discernment, Insider. Thanks for filling in the picture for us.
The Fellowship of Friends is rife with both knowing and unknowing complicity by its students. The Fellowship of Friends students surround and support the RB-centered rotten core of the School, much like Trump and his deluded, mostly white, lower income and under-educated supporters in the Heartland.

Speaking of Trump, in an interview, cult and mind control expert Steve Hassan said, “Donald Trump fits the stereotypical profile of a cult leader. His followers fit the model as well. Many of them, especially the ones that say, “He could do anything and we would still believe him, we would still follow him,” sound like people who have been indoctrinated into a totalistic mindset.”

Yes, “He could do anything and we would still believe him, we would still follow him,” That is exactly the mindset of the Fellowship of Friends students – especially the long term ones that keep covering up for RB and daily embroider for themselves a weird, unrealistic world view from their ivory towers in Oregon House.

Source of Trump quote by Steve Hassan:

https://www.salon.com/2018/03/06/is-donald-trump-a-cult-leader-expert-says-he-fits-the-stereotypical-profile/

88. pseudonym sid - March 22, 2019

Aside, but worth digesting…

89. brucelevy - March 22, 2019

88. pseudonym sid

Thanks.

90. WhaleRider - March 24, 2019

The image above of burton (with what looks like a penis growing out of his mouth) mocking a follower is a good example of how a person can be “awake and asleep”, conscious and unconscious at the same time, IMO.

Apparently, he allows himself to mock others, but I am darn sure he does not, to the best of my knowledge, allow himself to be mocked by them.

Please correct me if I’m wrong; does anyone ever remember a follower openly mocking him? Who would dare? Aren’t followers not even allowed to laugh out loud?

As a role model, this sets up an interesting dilemma for his followers…is “consciously” mocking others in the FOF now a sanctioned behavior…a new “conscious” way of “photographing” another follower’s “unconscious” behavior, habits, or mannerisms?

IMO, by blatantly mocking another but not allowing others to mock him, or even laugh out loud, (a great stress reliever, BTW, and which undoubtedly didn’t happen at the above event) burton is unconsciously projecting exactly what would get “under the skin” of a person with such a grandiose sense of their own self importance as he has about himself and which apparently he believes the pathological follower in question has about himself.

Yet, I do not think burton is capable of allowing himself to be mocked because it would humanize him in front of his followers…and ironically, were he able to have a good, hearty laugh at himself in public, it would in fact display the emotional maturity he sorely lacks as a result of his gross narcissism.

Unfortunately for all, he is enthralled (and enslaves others) in his own fantasy image of himself.

91. Golden Veil - March 24, 2019

Fantasy imagery

“On September 5th we begin our fiftieth year. We have all arrived at the present and, in this regard, we have totally surpassed any concept of what I thought would occur. Those are not just words. We are becoming the miraculous, we have become conscious light. Hafiz said, “Your destiny is to turn into light itself.” A song says, “I saw the light, I saw the light, no more darkness, no more night.”

Day by day and week by week and month by month and year by year and decade by decade we have stayed. We sought and held and found the miraculous. We have sought and found and held Influence C for half a century. “Thank you” is all we can wish to say when we blow out our birthday candles. I used to wish that you would become immortal, but now I don’t have to wish for that. It has come.”

Source:

page 76, Fifty Years with Angels: September 5, 1967 – September 5, 2017 by Robert Earl Burton, author, and Judith Grace, compiler, 2017.

92. ton2u - March 24, 2019

91 Re: the ‘fantasy imagery’ as another example of burton horse shit –

Somewhat to your point Whalerider, a difference between ‘bullshit’ and ‘horseshit’ is, a bullshitter knows better than to take him or herself too seriously…

“Our victory is over horseshit rather than bullshit. Bullshit is a rare and valuable commodity. The great masters have all been superb bullshitters. Horseshit, on the other hand, in the common parlance, refers to downright crap. The free, playful entertaining flight of ideas is bullshit; and more often than not will be found afterwards to accord perfectly with universal truth. Horseshit is contrived; derivative, superstitious, ignorant.”

93. ton2u - March 24, 2019
94. pseudonym sid - March 24, 2019

I believe it is John Harmer who takes the scientific path towards his personal goal. There is something very allegorical in this particular video …

95. Golden Veil - March 24, 2019

92. ton2u – March 24, 2019

What an astute definition by Art Kleps. I think that you are spot on regarding RB’s teachings being horseshit. Art Kleps was right. Gurdjief was more the master bullshit artist. Amazing.

96. Insider - March 24, 2019

90. WhaleRider

A famous incident occurred about 4 years ago when a follower tried to “photograph” Burton. The setting was lunchtime outdoors at “Apollo D’Oro” (the Lodge). A couple years earlier, Burton began to have “lunch monitors” (and, soon thereafter, “dinner monitors”) at every lunch. They would not dine, but would either walk among the tables, or stand where they could observe everyone. Their job was to look for transgressions like talking while eating, gesticulating while speaking, elbows on the table, talking too loudly, laughing, etc. Well, this one fellow, who was the lunch monitor this particular day, thought to go over to Burton’s table and photograph Burton for gesticulating while speaking. Smart move. A few minutes later, Burton sent one of the harem boys to inform this overly-diligent lunch monitor that he was being put on a “leave of absence,” and that he could return to the Fellowship only if he gave up his healing-related profession that he had worked with for some 25 years, and which was his sole source of income. (No, he declined Burton’s “generous offer,” and never returned to the Fellowship. Smart move.)

97. Cult Survivor - March 24, 2019

90. WhaleRider

When I joined the FOF in 1988 I was told that there were 2 tasks: no sex outside of marriage and no homosexual activity. A few months after joining a friend that was a member told me that Burton had sex with young boys (there was no internet at the time and nobody knew outside of the FOF). I was shocked. I went to the “Center Director” and asked him how could that be possible. His answer was classic — he told me that once a member asked Burton that question and he answered: “I don’t teach by example, I teach by being”.

That’s how it works. Cult leaders don’t teach by example and they are “divine”, so they have carte blanche to do whatever they wish, including telling their followers to drink the Kool-Aid.

“Do as I say, not as I do, because I’m conscious/enlightened/Jesus/Buddha. If you don’t see that then you are being controlled by the king of clubs/lower self/Satan and you’ll have to leave the school/church/congregation/group.”

98. Cult Survivor - March 24, 2019

88. pseudonym sid

After watching (and digesting) the video you posted I was wondering if it is “politically correctness” that becomes upset when somebody mentioned here that Girard Haven has links in his computer to porn sites with girls that look underage because it is a violation of his privacy, and also when I mentioned that Mihai Algiu had threesomes with Dorian Matei and female FOF members in the Galleria when he is now a family therapist because that can damage his career.

At the same time, people can say here whatever they want about Robert Burton because he is a celebrity, so to speak, like Donald Trump. It seems that post-modern political correctness is obsessed with defending the individual but not the famous ones, specially in this age of social media.

An interesting exception is brucelevy — he seems to be completely free from political correctness.

99. WhaleRider - March 24, 2019

Cult Survivor:
Life is complicated, with contradictions, so is this blog. Please don’t take it personally, and I appreciate that you are here.

Although personally I’d prefer Bruce didn’t call people names, he also displays compassion, comradery, appreciation, and shares his personal history of being abused by burton, meaning he’s multifaceted, not one dimensional.

Plus he uses his actual name, so you know who you’re dealing with, unlike an internet troll. So I have great compassion for him and tolerance for his outbursts, like he’s family.

Re: Haven and the assertion that he’s “addicted to child porn”, well, that’s simply inaccurate, and IMO, compromises the credability of the blog and whomever repeats it. It’s not a question of political correctness.

In this case, he at least deserves the benefit of doubt. And given his physical condition, it seems cruel to me to assassinate his character, when he really doesn’t display much character at all; he’s just one of burton’s enablers along for the ride. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel, so to speak.

burton, on the other hand, is in a different category altogether, IMO. He displays no remorse for his actions, is unlikely to ever read this blog, and although he undoubtedly has “thin skin” and is easily offended as indicated in insiders example above, burton’s narcissistic defenses are virtually inpenetrable.

Here burton is treated not as a person, but as an icon, because that’s how he wants to be treated. We are able to see and elaborate upon his dark side, his followers are not allowed to do so.

If I were he, and still possessed a modicum of human decency, I’d at least be curious of what my detractors thought of me, and would consider whether or not there was a grain of truth in what they said of me. I don’t think burton is capable of that. He’s cruel to anyone whom opposes him and unrepentant about the collateral damage he causes in other people’s lives as a result of his delusions of grandeur.

So as far as I’m concerned it’s open season for satire, just like Trump, in an effort to raise awareness about the harm he causes others.

100. Cult Survivor - March 24, 2019

99. Whalerider

My comment about Bruce was positive. Don’t worry, he doesn’t offend me (survivors like us have thick skins). That being said, I appreciate your kind words.

Regarding Girard Haven, it was reported here that somebody saw links to porn sites depicting girls that looked underaged on his computer, that’s all. The phrase “Girard is addicted to child porn” is from his ex-wife Clara, not from me. Sure, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. May be he bought a computer and the links where already there…

101. brucelevy - March 24, 2019

100. Cult Survivor

A few years ago when Clara was active on this blog she was passing through my town (Nevada City) and she wanted to meet for a drink since we had conversed on the blog, so we did. I’m sure people who were on the blog back then remember how easy it was to get her to “lose it”. 1st, one must realize that she married Gerard, and all that implies (as RB used to say). 2nd, my impression was she was a little “out there”. 3rd, aren’t we all a little “out there”. I know for a fact when marriages break up there is at the least some subliminal bitterness and belligerence. When my marriage finished and my children were temporarily living with my ex, there were periods where stories were told that were not truthful, but served to bias my children against me. Luckily they were both very intelligent and saw what was happening so the damage was temporary.

102. brucelevy - March 24, 2019

101. brucelevy

And I may be mistaken, but I recall
she was using a different first name at the time.

103. brucelevy - March 24, 2019

102. brucelevy

Then again, I’m not saying she didn’t have valid reasons to be pissed off.

104. Golden Veil - March 25, 2019

Is the “former believer” in this article Gir*rd H*ven’s ex-wife?

https://www.appeal-democrat.com/a-former-believer-takes-on-the-leader/article_b5e02048-fb50-57f6-a0a8-e1f2d5c8b634.html

Does anyone know with any certainty if there are any countries in which RB cannot travel due to arrest warrants? And what are the charges?

105. pseudonym sid - March 25, 2019

As far as I know, the lady in the article, who took this action, WAS the third wife of Gir*rd H*ven. That there have been one or more since to whom he was espoused is difficult to quantify. I should think his ‘leading role’ in thiis Grand Opera gives rise to choice pickings on his behalf.

106. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 25, 2019

That God Experience You Want and Joined a Cult to Get

What happens when people meditate, do yoga exercises, “self remember” “be present”, “practice mindfulness”, “absorb beautiful impressions”, take in the wondrous sights, fervently believe through religious faith and prayer, walk on fire, run marathons, dance for hours, have excessive sex, workout fanatically, experience sleep deprivation, eat really hot chilies, do any kind of long physical endurance, take various kinds of drugs, inflict pain on themselves, engage in heated debate, engage in physical conflict, engage in physical sports, fast (food deprivation), engage in mentally focused concentration such a complicated problem solving (playing chess) and even experience intensive social interactions such as experienced at a party is that the human body produces a variety of endogenous opioids in response to the unusually stimulating experiences. One particular variety of endogenous opioid the body produces are known as the endorphins. Out of the twenty varieties of endorphins the one in particular, known as beta-endorphin, is more powerful than morphine as it attaches to the nervous system’s opioid receptors. This beta-endorphin produces an overall physical and psychological sensation known by many as a natural high. Depending on how much beta-endorphin the nerves/glands are stimulated to produce, this natural high can be profound, offering intense periods of euphoria. This is what the Fourth Way cult fanatics (and Yoga fanatics and religious fanatics of all kinds, fanatics in general) are endeavoring to produce in themselves when they engage in their various cultish practices meant to increase their “attention” and make them more conscious of themselves and the world around them. The internal experiences produced range from a pleasant feeling of comfort (anti-anxiety) to profound moments of euphoria. The range of effects happen because of a natural drug the body secretes to ward off pain, suffering and anxiety. The profound and overwhelming experiences of higher consciousness and emotional sensations of direct contact with the mind of God is an illusion produced by the natural drug beta-endorphin which, again, is many times more powerful than morphine.

God-consciousness is nothing more than natural dope operating on the brain. Of course nothing is going to convince the fanatics of this fact.

What happens to many cult enthusiasts is they become addicted to the various techniques that stimulate beta-endorphin production. What they become addicted to is the euphoric physical/emotional sense of ease, elation, comfort/security and even rapture that they insist is somehow a magical state of higher consciousness that elevates them to a superior dimension of reality. Why they feel this way when engaged in and triggered by unorthodox beliefs and behavior is due to a phenomenon in the nervous system where a particular type of neurotransmitter is stimulated by unusually exciting, stressful and or high exertion related activities and subsequently, as a natural bodily defense mechanism, produces beta-endorphin, which then in turn connects with a particular type of neural receptor. All psychic practices: meditation, yoga, praying, chanting, walking long pilgrimages, fasting, forced breathing, “being present” and so on, were in the beginning, before becoming a widespread cultural phenomenon in recent times, originally intended as unorthodox, unexpected triggers that stimulate the nervous system. The triggered chemical-electrical neurotransmitter is known in general as endogenous opioids and the particular class of neural receptors for these drugs is known as the opioid receptors.

Before plant opioids were discovered and developed by humanity the brain produced its own form of morphine, which in certain cases is a far more powerful form of intoxicant than heroin. Heroin only imitates this natural drug when it is taken up by the opioid receptors. The evolutionary purpose for a powerful neurotransmitter like beta-endorphin and its coinciding receptor is as a counter to the pain produced by injury and extreme physical distress during the act of self-preservation. If attacked by an animal or another human and mauled the extraordinary feat of survival through physical effort involved in repelling an attacker and retreating to safety demands a powerful natural brain-jolting drug as a pain and body shock override. At such times the body requires a superhuman capacity to ignore injury and move away from danger and the nerves supply the drug that allows just that to happen. In many cases survivors will experience “mystical states” as a result of their narrow escape from the jaws of death. The mystical states experienced are in fact the result of a natural internal drug. The natural drug is the neurotransmitter beta-endorphin.

When humans experience mystical euphoria and elation through the persistent use of weird psychic activities (or even excessive physical activities, including sex) what they experience, rather than the mistaken belief of communing with a mystical god or a cosmic universal truth is a dose of beta-endorphin. Natural human superstition then supplies all the other elaborate supernatural fantasies that accompany the natural phenomenon.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/emotions/endorphins.htm

107. Cult Survivor - March 25, 2019

104. Golden Veil

Yes, the woman on the article is Clara, Girard’s third wife and the person that Bruce met in Nevada City.

When this was happening I remember asking Girard once what he thought was happening with Clara. His answer: “Her queens flipped”. A classic FOF answer (like “he believed his lower self”) and then the case is closed.

I find Clara’s words from the newspaper article inspiring for us:

She writes often on a Web site popular with many former Fellowship members who say the Internet can alert people intrigued by the group. Members once left without others knowing why they departed, Haven said, but now their reasons are posted for anyone to read on the Web site.

“The Fellowship cannot hurt me more than it has already hurt me,” Haven wrote in one post. “I may not be able to stop them but I’ll be a huge pebble in their shoe until the end of time.”

“Each prospective student who does not join in the next 20 years,” she said, “is worth all the trouble.”

108. brucelevy - March 25, 2019

104. Golden Veil

Yes Elena is Clara to my understanding.

109. Golden Veil - March 25, 2019

I appreciate the three of you swiftly responding to my first question.

But how about my second and third questions in post no. 104?

Does anyone know with any certainty if there are any countries in which RB cannot travel due to arrest warrants? And what are the charges?

110. fofblogmoderator - March 25, 2019

Sorry comments are closed for this entry

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