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Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 170 March 8, 2019

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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Living Presence Discussion.

Here, you can share your thoughts, your stories, your own experiences as a former member of the FOF.  If you are considering becoming a member, you are invited to read the discussion to better know the organization you are considering joining; we welcome your questions. Participants in the discussion may post under their own name, or anonymously.

The first comment of all new participants will be moderated before they can start communicating in real-time.  You will need to register with a valid email address and be able to reply to the welcome/verification email you will receive. If you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear within a day after it has been submitted; any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, such as personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion anonymously will prompt a warning. Continued abuse will result in your removal from the discussion.

To visit the official site of The  Fellowship Of Friends;

http://livingpresence.com/

Comments

1. Cult Survivor - March 8, 2019

91. Insider

You asked:
“Why do you keep mentioning the date of April 29, 2019? Did you hear from your FF contacts that Burton himself made a prediction about his own death? I ask because my contacts recently heard (from Burton) something very different. Thanks.”

This is how that date was revealed to me:

First I searched on Google for “Robert Earl Burton tombstone” and found the image that I posted here (removed after Tim’s sound advice).

Then I added the digits of the date:

4 + 29 + 2019 = 2052
2 + 0 + 5 + 2 = 9

That confirmed that on that day Robert will complete his ninth and last lifetime and become electronic.

The last and final confirmation was that on April 29th, 1992 Sheena Easton collapsed on stage while performing in the musical “Man of La Mancha”, meaning that Cervantes is the angel that will accompany Burton when he completes his task (Leonardo will be the first to greet him when he enters Paradise, of course).

I tell you what they tell me, you see. As I said before, if Burton’s death doesn’t happen on April 29th, 2019 it means that it is a shock from Influence C to humiliate me and I will transform it into presence. We always make a profit, as Gurdjieff said (in his case and Burton’s it’s literal I guess).

Now seriously, what did you hear from your contacts in the FOF? When I left in 2016 Burton was still saying that he would die at the age Bob Hope died but I don’t think that’s possible since Bob Hope died when he was 100 and Dorian Matei told me that Burton moves so little that he had to stop using his expensive automatic watches because they don’t charge (his fragile heart may stop any moment, just like the watches). Honestly I can’t imagine Burton being alive for another 20 years, that would be dreadful.

2. rich - March 8, 2019

When RB goes, what will fill my amusement esoteric vacuum?

3. Insider - March 8, 2019

1. CS (or should I say BS?)

I thought the date of death on the tombstone was 4-29-2009.

4. Cult Survivor - March 8, 2019

3. Insider

O ye, of little faith… 2009 implying 2019. I heard Robert say innumerous times things like “120 implying 12”, “a pentagon implying a square”, etc. Higher centers are not logical — they are psychological.

5. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 8, 2019

The Universal Source of the Mystical Number Three In the Human Mind and Civilization

In ancient times, in caves and in bushes, the male human actively inserted his nozzle into the passive female receptacle. Some months later a usually unequal blend of the characteristics of the two original “forces” would emerge as a third human.

Humans have big brains because many hundreds of thousands of years ago they begin cooking and eating meat (look it up). Up until humans invented the scientific method in the last 200 years or so they didn’t have enough to do with the giant brains they developed (they had no Internet until fairly recently). Simple survival was not enough to keep human minds completely occupied. So, what humans did with their excessive intelligence was they developed a psychological condition of delusion known as superstition and religion. Everything around them became a subject of delusional referencing. A man and a woman having a baby that resembled both of them became a magical process, a mysterious phenomenon. The mystical and primal number three became a mysterious symbol that signified a miraculous mixing of the important and the incidental which often resulted in a fairly good replica of the father. The many variations and delusional elaborations on subjects like the primal number three carried on over the generations and ages until recently when science began to push back on the ignorant beliefs that up until a few decades ago were enforced in the population often using institutional violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3

6. Cult Survivor - March 8, 2019

5. Four Days of the Fourth State

Don’t forget the Christian “Holy Trinity”:

7. Cult Survivor - March 8, 2019

What the heck happened with the image? Click on it to see it.

That’s what happens when we make fun of esoteric knowledge…

8. rich - March 8, 2019

Of course G. lifted his law of three largely from his upbringing
in the Eastern Orthodox Church……

9. Ames Gilbert - March 8, 2019

As with any exploration, when we try to explore our inner world, almost all of us first look for a map. But, by definition, this is someone else’s map. If you use that map, you must place some trust in the map maker, in advance, whether it is a ‘verify-as-you-go’ map or a full-fledged faith-based map, where you must arrive at the destination before you can decide (often too late!) whether the destination was the one you thought you agreed to (or more likely, imagined) before you made that the leap of faith.

But why should you trust someone else’s map at all? Think about why you would even consider using someone else’s map. How the heck did they make their map, and if it has been passed down in some sort of lineage, someone must have been the first. Why are you unworthy to make your own map? Why do you think that you do not already have the tools to explore your own consciousness? 

One obvious answer is that using someone else’s map saves time and energy. Why reinvent the wheel? Why not stand on the shoulders of those who went before you if your desire is to see further, see new lands? Why take the risk bumbling around and maybe ending up going in circles? 

O.K., that makes sense, for the purposes of argument. So, how would one go about the business of finding and choosing a valid map?

I guess it would be useful to first be very clear why one wants a map at all. Is the wish based on listening to tales of adventures and derring–do by the equivalent of the loudmouth in his cups at the corner table, down at the local pub? Or, do you long for escape from the turmoil and disappointments of this ordinary life? Maybe you want to find treasure, powers of position, influence over others, ‘consciousness’, ‘immortality’?
Your answers—or lack of clear answers, both will affect the kind of map you are looking for, and indeed the entire journey.

Then, where to start? 
Maybe try making one’s own map, at least for a little while. Wouldn’t that would give one perspective and an appreciation of the skills necessary to both navigate and make a good map, maybe eventually develop a technique of map–making that others could build on and improve? And doing this would also help you discern: the qualities you are looking for in a map, how useful a map someone proffers actually is to you personally, or whether a generic map could be tailored for your own use. And, more subtly, it would help you judge the reliability and work ethic of the mapmaker—or even help you discern if the map was stolen.

It seems it would also be useful to know where one is now. If you don’t know where you are now, a map of how to get from Paris to Timbuctoo is not going to be of much help.

The Fourth Way posits that you are asleep (aka ‘unworthy’) and do not even have a soul. If you wish to go further using the Fourth Way map, then you have to agree with that premise, which means you have already disempowered yourself from the get-go. Even if you ‘provisionally agree’, the longer you do so, the more you put yourself in danger of actually internalizing all the baggage and expectations that come with the agreement.

Why do we accept this? Why do we accept that external authoritarian claims of unworthiness are valid? Ditto for most religious instruction, whereby the remedies are based exclusively on faith to the (sometimes, bitter) end.

10. Ames Gilbert - March 8, 2019

The Fourth Way, as propounded by Ouspensky in “In Search of the Miraculous” and “The Fourth Way”, seized me deeply from the first pages, and in many ways is still deeply embedded in my psyche. But, it was all irredeemably contaminated by my exposure to the Fellowship of Friends and Burton’s peculiar and extremely self–serving interpretations. One of the biggest failures, IMO, was institutionalizing the divorce between the mind and the body, by, for example, making the Instinctive center ‘the enemy’. My understanding of Gurdjieff was that rather he proposed methods to reunify mind and body, so often separated by the weird style of living called “Western Civilization”, so almost exactly the opposite of Burton’s ‘teaching’!

Anyway, that, together with the idea that not only was Ouspensky presenting mere ‘fragments of a teaching’, and, that moreover one needed the guidance of someone who had supposedly previously ‘escaped’ in order to pursue this particular path, led me to abandon the idea of making further individual progress using the Fourth Way.

For a start, how would I know that I had met such a guide, let alone that I could trust him or her? Especially post–Fellowship of Conditional Friends…

And, if I am left with picking and choosing bits of the System, or any system for that matter, why should someone else’s ideas of what to pick and what to disregard be more valid than my own choices? Ouspensky made his choices in that regard at a rather younger age than I; what gives his choices, based on his subjective accumulated experiences, more authority or substance than mine, based on my accumulated experiences? That he happened to have a very developed gift for synthesis and I don’t? That he wrote lots of books, before and after his relationship with Gurdjieff?

After a while, I came to understand (for myself) that the very ideas of needing to ‘evolve’/make progress, itself based on the premise that something is very wrong with me, mankind, and the world in general, and that I must strive to correct this ‘original sin’ or perish, were based on zero evidence. At least that I could find.
I came to the conclusion that, absent a reliable guide, I had to draw my own conclusions about life and how to live it. So, I still have fun with aspects of the Fourth Way, and I admire the (rather incomplete) intellectual map that Ouspensky laid out, but I can’t base my life on a book.

So, not being a genius or even particularly clever, I have to adopt a correspondingly simple philosophy that matches my being. Which is: I’m here to enjoy this life, and one way I can do this is, by trying to be happy. For me, happiness can come when I feel I have contributed something worthwhile, and that I have value, or when I feel that I have contributed to someone else’s well–being, or that I have acted as a good steward of the resources I’ve been given temporary control over, that kind of thing.

I can get a sense of connection and well–being when I self–remember in a truer way (including gratitude for the gift of this life, for instance), NOT the way of hyper–vigilant attention that I learned in the Fellowship of Friends, and that I believe Burton proposes (which strengthens the ego and can become as mechanical as anything else, I’ve found).

11. crossroads - March 8, 2019

I think no one mentioned, so I am sharing what my mom told me:
Faith, Hope and Charity – those are the ladies.

12. rich - March 8, 2019

11.crossroads: care to try and identify which is which? I
learned in Sunday school, love is the biggie…..

13. crossroads - March 8, 2019

The three of them encompass love

14. rich - March 8, 2019

13.crossroads: well said!

15. Michael Kearney - March 8, 2019

#96 John Harmer
When I talk about a “higher” invisible world controlling and creating the world of the scientists, I obviously am talking about the supernatural world of various religions. However, I don’t believe in that concept because it is part of some religion I belong to. I believe because I think it is a logical explanation of things, and true. I am going to continue on my theme of a previous post, on the origin of the species. I will fearlessly discuss the available facts regarding the subject. And if what I write is unintentionally humorous, well, as we pious people say “Let the Heathens rage.”-or in this case laugh. Groups of species appear suddenly (suddenly, geologically speaking), And through all human history, every so often, things have fallen from the sky that should not have been there to start with. In many cases these things have been masses of small animals. These animals fall to the ground uninjured, and without any debris associated with them. There is nothing in these falls consistent with debris dropped by tornados or waterspouts. In Genesis we can find an explication of the origins of things in simple words along the lines of “Let there be this or that! And this or that was.” I use an even simpler verbal formula to summarize the facts of the origins of the species, namely, “There wasn’t, and then there was!” Or “There wasn’t, there was, they fell!” But if we are believers in the idea of “nothing from nothing”, then we have to do a little theorizing. They must have come from somewhere, from some invisible place. It must be a very powerful place to create such things for the earth. So it must he a higher, invisible world. And what about crop circles? Don’t they fit the law of “It wasn’t, and then it was!”-overnight. But don’t they have to come from somewhere? How about from an invisible higher world?

16. Michael Kearney - March 8, 2019

I meant to say above “Groups of species appear suddenly in the GEOLOGIC RECORD”.

17. Golden Veil - March 8, 2019

And now for something completely different, Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the inimitable Randy Rainbow on psychopathic Love at the top.

https://crooksandliars.com/2019/03/randy-rainbow-sings-songs-trumpkim-love

18. brucelevy - March 8, 2019

17. Golden Veil

Love Randy.

19. crossroads - March 9, 2019

This one too is totally related to our subject here:
Cybernetics, the dopamine hit, the algorithms, the negative feedback loop, mass suicide, crazy… Reminds me “Life is real only then, when “I am”

20. John Harmer - March 9, 2019

#15 Michael Kearney I am happy to respond to your ideas. First I do agree that there is a deep mystery as to why there is anything at all. That existence might emerge from complete nothingness does baffle our minds, and I have no answer to that. I do not know if scientific endeavours will ever reveal a satisfactory answer to it either. However I do not think that saying “God made it” is any kind of an answer. Proposing the existence of something even more complicated and mysterious to explain the already incomprehensible mystery of existence itself does not advance the explanation at all.
However I do find the theory of evolution persuasive, and well supported by the fossil record. I can recommend a book by Matt Ridley called “The Red Queen” for a detailed description of the thinking that is going on in that field.
Crop circles are created by humans who enjoy a good prank, this is now well established.
When animals fall out of the sky, I am amazed, but I do not feel the unavoidable conclusion is that they have been created instantly by some spooky process involving higher beings. IFLscience recently featured this humpback whale in the amazonian jungle, I agree it IS odd. 🙂

https://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/humpback-whale-mysteriously-found-in-amazon-forest/?fbclid=IwAR2-Rrmsec08sMGW3AOL5cPn4Qm6wDyXRSPgQTa8SCEJe7nhMzic3EU9dOA

21. Wouldnt You Like To Know - March 9, 2019

According to:
AGE OF FABLE OR BEAUTIES OF MYTHOLOGY
by Thomas Bulfinch
Page 10:

“The Graces were goddesses presiding over the banquet, the dance, and all social enjoyments and elegant arts. They were three in number. Their names were Euphrosyne, Aglaia, and Thalia.

Spenser describes the office of the Graces thus: –
‘These three on men all gracious gifts bestow
Which deck the body or adorn the mind,
To make them lovely or well-favored show;
As comely carriage, entertainment kind,
Sweet semblance, friendly offices that bind,
And all the complements of courtesy;
They teach us how to each degree and kind
We should ourselves demean, to low, to high,
To friends, to foes; which skill men call Civility.'”

Also known as: Kharites (Charites)
Other attributes may have been attributed to them.

22. WhaleRider - March 9, 2019

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-67wB8wKRXwg/TbZMNaIjMNI/AAAAAAAADtY/smmpoITVXxM/s1600/Rosarium-mercurial-dove-24

Alchemical Triads…a magical map…man and woman crowned as equals… connected by a transient flower…born of three heavenly elements, sun, moon, star…then our earthy feet immersed in water, the universal solvent…the peaceful dove descending from above, deus ex machina offering roots, something completely different, love for Randy Rainbow…It’s starting to make sense now or am I dreaming?

23. Artemis44 - March 9, 2019

We live, while we see the sun,
Where life and dreams are as one;
And living has taught me this,
Man dreams the life that is his,
Until his living is done.
The king dreams he is king, and he lives
In the deceit of a king,
Commanding and governing;
And all the praise he receives
Is written in wind, and leaves
A little dust on the way
When death ends all with a breath.
Where then is the gain of a throne,
That shall perish and not be known
In the other dream that is death?
Dreams the rich man of riches and fears,
The fears that his riches breed;
The poor man dreams of his need,
And all his sorrows and tears;
Dreams he that prospers with years,
Dreams he that feigns and foregoes,
Dreams he that rails on his foes;
And in all the world, I see,
Man dreams whatever he be,
And his own dream no man knows.
And I too dream and behold,
I dream I am bound with chains,
And I dreamed that these present pains
Were fortunate ways of old.
What is life? a tale that is told;
What is life? a frenzy extreme,
A shadow of things that seem;
And the greatest good is but small,
That all life is a dream to all,
And that dreams themselves are a dream.

-Pedro Calderón de la Barca, “Life is a Dream”

24. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 9, 2019

One reason people end up in cults: “desire for spiritual meaning – a need to believe that life has a “higher purpose”

https://people.howstuffworks.com/cult.htm

25. Ames Gilbert - March 9, 2019

Michael Kearney, you said on page 169 #90, “
Modern Science is based on the belief that all things that exist are merely some particular arrangement of the same tiny particles of which all other things are composed. There is no higher invisible world that controls and creates the world that the scientists are able to study.”

Although the first sentence is a gross generalization, and I could try explaining why, your second sentence contains a logical fallacy called the “straw man” fallacy, which has to be dealt with first. In of itself, the sentence stands, but when you link it to the second sentence, therein lies the fallacy. You are implying that modern science (capitalized in your later posts) is some kind of a monolith, that the ‘belief’ is settled, and that ‘modern science’ claims there is no ‘higher, invisible world’ which, moreover, ‘controls and creates the world that scientists are able to study’. I emphasize, you are the one making those links and implications, not I.

Now, if you don’t want to argue using the tools of logic, o.k., fine, but you aren’t going to find many takers. Then it just becomes a battle of assertions, and who can assert louder. But if you want serious engagement, then most philosophers have agreed, over the last two and a half thousand years, to follow a set of rules that enable a meaningful exchange of ideas, and even more importantly, the possibilities of a shared understanding.

One of the breakthroughs of the Enlightenment was the possibility of exploring the natural world without the thought–terminating assertions of the local religious authorities being imposed, sometimes to the point of imprisonment or even death to those holding contrary, even provably erroneous points of view.
First, a quick review of the scientific method:
Hypothesis
Thesis
Experiment (repeatable)
Proof
not
Hypothesis
Thesis (asserted laws, for example, via intermediaries or ‘holy books’ and such)
Hyperventilation
‘Poof’
… Which is how both religions and economics proceed!
BTW, Burtonism is particularly focused on the ‘poof’!

AFAIK, there are no scientists that claim there is no possibility of the existence of your ‘invisible worlds’. In my opinion, if they did, they would not be scientists, at least in the way I understand the term.
But the ‘scientific method’ is a way of expanding our knowledge in a very precise manner, and is open to anyone (that is, not just the purview of priests, ‘enlightened ones’, mediums or other intermediaries). It includes the idea of collecting data, sharing that data with anyone who is interested, and if it is experimental data, showing how to duplicate the experiments so others can independently duplicate those experiments and collect further data—which may agree or disagree with the preceding data. And it includes the very special (IMO) requirement that if someone proposes a hypothesis, that it is a duty to try to dispose of it, and any repeatable experimental data that helps dispose of it is inherently valuable.

Your assertions and speculations about ‘higher forces’, invisible worlds, and so on, are just that. Enjoy! And your claims about animals raining from the heavens are anecdotes, not data. I don’t claim that your beliefs are wrong, or not possible, or anything in particular. Speculate all you want! But if you want to impose your beliefs on others (as so many religious authorities have and still seek to do), that is another matter. And if you want me, Ames Gilbert, to take your beliefs seriously, please provide evidence.

If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been “taken”. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.

Carl Sagan
(from his book, “The Demon–Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark”)

Carl Sagan also said,

“We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology” and, “In science it often happens that scientists say, ‘you know, that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken’, and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. It happens every day, but I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.”

Uh-oh, Michael—see how dangerous it is when you train yourself to use the scientific method of inquiry!

26. truthorconsequences44 - March 9, 2019

15. Michael Kearney

“Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed.”
~ A. L. Lavoisier (1743–1792)

27. Cult Survivor - March 9, 2019

We can’t mix scientific thinking, philosophical thinking and magical thinking. This blog is an example of that — all of us have a weakness for magical thinking or we wouldn’t have joined the FOF, a cult founded by a person with “Magical Thinking OCD”:

“Magical thinking OCD is an illogical thought pattern characterized by the linking of unrelated actions or events. Individuals may become preoccupied with lucky or unlucky numbers, colors, words, actions, sayings or superstitions and link them to catastrophes or ‘bad things’ that might happen. The individual with Magical Thinking OCD truly believes and lives by these rules and feared consequences, and may believe that the mere act of thinking certain things may result in the occurrence of a feared event.”

Source:
https://peaceofmind.com/education/types-of-ocd/magical-thinking/

28. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 9, 2019

Views from the Wrong World
An in depth review of:
Views from the Real World
(Book, Early Talks of G. I. Gurdjieff)

“Glimpses of Truth”

“Strange events, incomprehensible from the ordinary point of
view, have guided my life. I mean those events which influence
a man’s inner life, radically changing its direction and
aim and creating new epochs in it. I call them incomprehensible
because their connection was clear only to me. It was as
though some invisible person, in pursuit of a definite aim, had
placed in the path of my life circumstances which, at the very
moment of my need, I found there as if by chance. Guided by
such events, I became accustomed from my early years to look
with great penetration into the circumstances surrounding me
and to try to grasp the principle connecting them, and to find
in their interrelations a broader, more complete explanation. I
must say that in every exterior result it was the hidden cause
evoking it that interested me most.”

Nothing could better illustrate the inner workings of a narcissist with delusions of grandeur while operating under magical thinking and delusional referencing, conditions that are evident in nearly every Gurdjieff cult enthusiast.

“Grandiose delusions frequently serve a very positive function for the person of sustaining or increasing their self-esteem. As a result, it is important to consider what the consequences of removing the grandiose delusion are on self-esteem when trying to modify the grandiose delusion in therapy.”

“Example: A woman believes she has been selected by a deity for eventual elevation to divine status; she goes around blessing people.” -Wikipedia

Another example: “I call them incomprehensible because their connection was clear only to me. It was as though some invisible person, in pursuit of a definite aim, had placed in the path of my life circumstances which, at the very moment of my need, I found there as if by chance.” -Gurdjieff

“Magical thinking is an illogical thought pattern characterized by the linking of unrelated actions or events. Individuals may become preoccupied with lucky or unlucky numbers, colors, words, actions, sayings or superstitions and link them to catastrophe or ‘bad things’ that might happen. The individual with ‘magical thinking’ OCD truly believes and lives by these rules and feared consequences, and may believe that the mere act of thinking certain things may result in the occurrence of a feared event.” -Peaceofmind.com, magical thinking

“Delusions of reference – A neutral event is believed to have a special and personal meaning. For example, a person with schizophrenia might believe a billboard or a celebrity is sending a message meant specifically for them.” -Encyclopedia of Psychology, Delusion

Schizophrenic manipulation takes place between people when the character suffering from schizophrenia is intelligent and functional enough to be able to skillfully attempt to convince others that his or her delusions are in fact reality while the typical way of perceiving the world is actually faulty. Generally others who suffer from some form of incapacitating mental symptoms are those most susceptible to being talked into and held captive in the psychotic world of the cunning yet delusional manipulator.

“Delusions may be of many types other than paranoid; grandiose delusions are quite common: “I felt that I had power to determine the weather, which responded to my inner moods, and even to control the movement of the sun in relation to other astronomical bodies.” This often leads to a belief by the person that he/she is Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the President, or some other exalted or important person.

“A relatively common delusion is that a person can control other people’s minds. One young woman I saw had spent five years at home because each time she went into the street she believed that her mind compelled other people to turn and look at her. She described the effect of her mind as “like a magnet—they have no choice but to turn and look.”

“Another variant is the delusional belief that one’s thoughts are radiating out of one’s head and being broadcast over radio or television; this is called thought broadcasting and is considered to be an almost certain indication of schizophrenia. One woman described it as follows: “I believed I had a ticker tape going in one ear and coming out the other, with all my thoughts written on it.” -mentalillnesspolicy.org, schizophrenia-delusions

Elements involved in the cult point of view presented by “one of Gurdjieff’s circle in Moscow” [later confirmed that Gurdjieff actually wrote the entire introduction himself]:

Grandiose delusions
Magical thinking
Delusions of reference
Schizophrenic manipulation

Here in this first paragraph the cult creators of the volume (Gurdjieff) Views from the Real World thought it expedient to begin the propaganda intended to convince the susceptible of the magic powers of their teacher Gurdjieff by portraying him with the enchanted outlook of someone suffering from a form of schizophrenia. Of course back in 1914 the information available on mental disorders was just beginning to be cataloged and analyzed by professionals, so the layman did not have the knowledge about what to avoid so that the venerable mystic didn’t simply present recognizable symptoms of psychosis.

The whole Gurdjieff mystique requires accepting that people with mental disorders are in fact blessed with great insight that only the privileged (usually other mental defectives) can appreciate and comprehend. The delusion that life has been specially arranged by mysterious benevolent forces so that the person living such a blessed life will be presented with just the right circumstances just when he needs such arrangements to appear is routinely delusional. Nearly every Gurdjieff cult enthusiast suffers from this self-importance reinforcing pretense, which consequently distorts the entire appearance and subjective meaning of the unfortunate’s existence.

So, this is how the Gurdjieff handbook introduces itself, by pretending that the psychological disorder of grandiose schizophrenic delusion is actually a highly beneficial and desirable frame of mind that ultimately solves the countless uncertainties and general state of confusion that plagues many people in society if the specialized psychological Gurdjieff ‘treatment’ is sought out and persistently pursued.

29. Golden Veil - March 9, 2019

27. Cult Survivor – March 9, 2019
28. Four Days of the Fourth State – March 9, 2019

Excellent, Gentlemen! And I think that even art historians, especially those who research Greek, Roman and Italian Renaissance art, though perhaps not schizophrenic or narcissistic, are sometimes delusional in their findings regarding the meaning of narrative paintings. They may study philosophy, religion, economics, politics, humanism and sociology, etc. of a time period to attempt to understand a painting and still get it all wrong.

30. Cult Survivor - March 9, 2019

28. Four Days of the Fourth State – March 9, 2019

I agree with Golden Veil that your analysis of the delusional mind of Gurdjieff is brilliant. Thank you for taking the time to identify and classify Gurdjieff’s disorders.

If we apply your analysis to Robert Burton, we can see that Burton also suffers of delusion of grandeur (schizophrenia) and magical thinking OCD, and that his illnesses are becoming more accentuated with time. Most people here on this blog left the FOF before 2006, the year the “Sequence” was introduced; I didn’t have that fortune so I witnessed Burton’s descent. He started mentioning The Sequence during events, then he started seeing symbols of The Sequence in art, finally he started to talk only about the Sequence.

Nowadays, every meeting, teaching dinner and fundraising event follows the following format: A series of images is shown on a screen and Burton “keys” the image with comments like “Dear, can you zoom into the eye of the gentleman? That’s very good, thank you. We see 10 eyelashes, 6 on the left and 4 on the right. That’s The Sequence. You see, art is just an envelope to transmit the message from higher school to us. The artist who painted this portrait was asleep and didn’t know the message, he carried a letter without opening it so to speak. We are incredibly fortunate because Influence C whispered the keys to the sacred message in my ear.”

Reading the paragraph above, Burton’s insanity is obvious — one doesn’t have to be a mental health professional to see that — but my question is, Why do people pay from 50 to 150 dollars to hear that nonsense for 60 to 90 minutes?

Can it be that every current member of the FOF has the same mental illnesses of Burton: grandiose delusion (“we are the only conscious school on Earth”) and magical thinking OCD (“yesterday I went to the DMV, I waited for 44 minutes to be called and my number was 64, isn’t that amazing”)?

31. brucelevy - March 9, 2019

It’s all pretty interesting. I think most of you are assholes and jerkoffs. I think Gurdjieff had his shit together far more then your limp dicked intellects can apprehend. But that’s just me. Continue to pat yourselves on the back and stroke your own intellectual dicks.

32. Cult Survivor - March 9, 2019

31. brucelevy

Considering your language and the depth of your thoughts, your comment is the best compliment I could receive. Thank you very much.

33. brucelevy - March 9, 2019

32. Cult Survivor

my pleasure.

34. brucelevy - March 9, 2019

Back again Greg Goodwin…like herpes.

35. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 9, 2019

Views from the Wrong World
An in depth review of:
Views from the Real World
(Book, Early Talks of G. I. Gurdjieff)

“Glimpses of Truth”

Now, keep in mind this published narration is actually Gurdjieff writing about himself.

From Ouspensky’s In Search of the Miraculous:

“I learned later on that the author of the story (Glimpses of Truth) was an imaginary person and that the story had been begun by two of G.’s pupils who were present at the reading, with the object of giving an exposition of his ideas in a literary form. Still later I heard that the idea of the story belonged to G. himself.”

(Random quotes from the pages of Glimpses of Truth):

“Mr. Gurdjieff spoke Russian neither fluently nor correctly.
Sometimes he searched for a considerable time for the words and
expressions he needed, and turned constantly to A. for help.”

“At first Mr. Gurdjieff had to appeal to A. constantly, but
as the subject broadened and developed, embracing new
areas, Mr. Gurdjieff turned to A. less and less often. His
speech flowed more freely and naturally; the necessary words
seemed to come of themselves, and I could have sworn that,
by the end of the conversation, he was speaking the clearest
unaccented Russian, his words succeeding one another fluently
and calmly; they were rich in color, similes, vivid examples,
broad and harmonious perspectives.”

What ridiculous drivel. We already know from conversations recounted by Ouspensky that Gurdjieff spoke passable Russian, though with an accent. This is either a fabrication for the sake of building up Gurdjieff’s reputation as a miracle worker or the dreamy delirium of an individual given over to romantic hero-worshiping. Since Gurdjieff at the very least supervised the writing of the story there is no other conclusion to draw other than Gurdjieff himself could not resist fabricating and embellishing questionable tales about his special powers as a mystic teacher.

“In addition, both of them illustrated the conversation with
various diagrams and series of numbers, which, taken together,
formed a graceful system of symbols—a sort of script—in
which one number could express a whole group of ideas. They
quoted numerous examples from physics and mechanics, and
especially brought material from chemistry and mathematics.”

They brought material from physics, mechanics, chemistry and mathematics? It is clear in the course of the passage of more than a century of published material on the subject of Gurdjieff that he had very little practical knowledge of such subjects, save in the form a pseudo-science that has long since proven to be nonsense. Gurdjieff himself claimed to be a practitioner of “objective science” which in fact proved to have nothing to do with actual practical modern science. Example:

“This is why Objective Science, among other statements about this sacred law and its three independent forces, has the following formulation ‘A law whose consequences always become the cause of further consequences, and which always functions by means of three independent and quite opposite manifestations, latent within it as properties neither seen nor sensed’.
-Beelzebub’s Tales

This account from Glimpses of Truth is quickly beginning to clarify itself as a fictionalized and padded tale meant to impose on the mind of the reader the impression of momentous revelations spun out at lightning speed to a dumbfounded witnessing mute who obviously would understand nothing concrete or granular about the somewhat sophisticated “esoteric” lecture. The fictional listener merely expresses a sense of being overwhelmingly impressed with it all.

Knowing what we know from Ouspensky, that the written piece is all a fiction orchestrated by Gurdjieff about himself, gives the impression of some desperation to build up a reputation as a magical being in the pursuit of attracting paying customers.

36. Golden Veil - March 10, 2019

35. Four Days of the Fourth State – March 9, 2019

You definitely have the makings of a book. I think you would do well if you published your research. You could publish an E book at no cost and also convert it to print. As you further your research, you could then instantly and easily issue revised E book editions, also at no cost

Debunking G.I. Gurdjieff, the Grand Master of The Fourth Way

The Game of the Grand Master of The Fourth Way, G. I. Gurdjieff

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/

37. Michael Kearney - March 10, 2019

Thanks to those who responded to my last post. It seems they all wanted to lead a fellow human being away from the darkness of error to the light of rational thought and reason. Well, thanks for the good intentions. And I can pat myself on the back for similar good intentions. As I said in a previous post, knowing what the truth is is a matter of judgement. Two people who judge things differently can offer logical arguments and counter arguments for ever, and never be influenced by the opinion of the other person. And a clever person who is attracted to, and believes in, a fantasy, can produce endless logical arguments in favor of his belief. And if, by chance, the readers agrees with the last sentence that I wrote above, well, there you go–we all agree on something! By reading many of the posts on this blog, I did solve a little mystery that perplexed me for awhile. I couldn’t understand why persons who had the scientific view of things would have wanted to join the FoF in the first place, an organization based on the teachings of Saint Gurdjieff. But the logical answer, as they explain, is that they not only quit FoF in disgust, but also, at some point, changed their general view of things, and escaped from their habit of “magical thinking”. However, some of the contributors to the blog still have respect for Saint Gurdjieff, and I think that they still must be subject to “magical thinking” as I am. A couple of contributors even are still interested in other organizations based on the teachings of the above mentioned Saint. But one of them seemed to be trying to lead me away from my “magical thinking”. That seems contradictory to me. P.S. I hope now that Saint Gurdjieff has been canonized that everyone will show him proper respect, and not mention his name without the proper title.

38. Cult Survivor - March 10, 2019

Let’s not forget Saint Ouspensky, another master of magical thinking.

This is from “In Search of the Miraculous” (Chapter 13, Page 268).

(…)

I now come to a most difficult thing because there is no possibility whatever of describing the facts themselves.

Why?

I have often put this question to myself. And I could only answer that there was far too much in them of what was personal for them to be made common property. And I think that it was so not only in my case but that it always is so.

I remember that assertions of this kind always made me indignant when I came across them in the memoirs or the notes of people who had passed through any sort of extraordinary experiences and afterwards refused to describe them. They had sought the miraculous and, in one form or another, they thought they had found it. But when they had found what they sought they invariably said: “I have found it. But I cannot describe what I have found.” -— It always seemed to me to be artificial and invented.

And now I found myself in exactly the same position. I had found what I sought. I saw and observed facts that entirely transcended the sphere of what we consider possible, acknowledged, or admissible, and I can say nothing about them.

The principal part of these experiences was in their inner content and in the new knowledge which came with them. But even the outer aspect could be described only very approximately. As I have already said, after all my fasts and other experiments I was in a rather excited and nervous state and physically less steady than usual. I arrived at the country house of E. N. M. in Finland, at whose house in St. Petersburg we had of late often had our meetings. G. and about eight of our people were there. In the evening the talk went on our attempts to tell about our lives. G. was very harsh and sarcastic, as though he was trying to provoke now one, now another of us, and in particular he emphasized our cowardice and the laziness of our thought.

I was particularly affected when he began to repeat in front of everyone something I had told him in absolute confidence, what I thought of Dr. S. What he said was very unpleasant for me principally because I had always condemned such talk in others.

I think it was at about ten o’clock that he called me, Dr. S., and Z. into a small separate room. We sat on the floor “Turkish fashion” and G. began to explain and to show us certain postures and physical movements. I could not help noticing that there was an astonishing assurance and precision in all his movements although the movements and postures themselves did not present any particular problem and a good gymnast could have done them without exceptional difficulty. I had never had any pretensions to the role of an athlete but I could imitate them outwardly. G. explained that although a gymnast could of course do these movements the gymnast would do them in a different way from him and that he did them in a special way with muscles relaxed.

Afterwards G. again passed to the question why we could not tell the story of our lives.

And with this the miracle began.

I can say with complete assurance that G. did not use any kind of external methods, that is, he gave me no narcotics nor did he hypnotize me by any of the known methods.

It all started with my beginning to hear his thoughts. We were sitting in a small room with a carpetless wooden floor as it happens in country houses. I sat opposite G., and Dr. S. and Z. at either side. G. spoke of our “features,” of our inability to see or to speak the truth. His words perturbed me very much. And suddenly I noticed that among the words which he was saying to us all there were “thoughts” which were intended for me. I caught one of these thoughts and replied to it, speaking aloud in the ordinary way. G. nodded to me and stopped speaking. There was a fairly long pause. He sat still saying nothing. After a while I heard his voice inside me as it were in the chest near the heart. He put a definite question to me. I looked at him; he was sitting and smiling. His question provoked in me a very strong emotion. But I answered him in the affirmative.

“Why did he say that?” asked G., looking in turn at Z. and Dr. S. “Did I ask him anything?”

And he at once put another still more difficult question to me in the same way as before. And I again answered it in a natural voice. Z. and S. were visibly astonished at what was taking place, especially Z. This conversation, if it can be called a conversation, proceeded in this fashion for not less than half an hour. G. put questions to me without words and I answered them speaking in the usual way. I was very agitated by the things G. said to me and the things he asked me which I cannot trans­mit. The matter was concerned with certain conditions which I had either to accept or leave the work. G. gave me a month’s time. I refused the time and said that no matter how difficult what he demanded was I would carry it out at once. But G. insisted on the month’s time.

At length he got up and we went out on the veranda. On the other side of the house was another large veranda where the rest of our people were sitting.

What transpired after this I can say very little about, although the chief things happened after. G. was speaking with Z. and S. Then something he said about me affected me very strongly and I sprang up from my chair and went into the garden. From there I went into the forest. I walked about there for a long time in the dark, wholly in the power of the most extraordinary thoughts and feelings. Sometimes it seemed to me that I had found something, at other times I lost it again.

This went on for one or two hours. Finally, at the moment of what felt like the climax of contradictions and of inner turmoil, there flashed through my mind a thought following which I very quickly came to a clear and right understanding of all G. had said and of my own position. I saw that G. was right; that what I had considered to be firm and reliable in myself in reality did not exist. But I had found something else. I knew that he would not believe me and that he would laugh at me if I showed him this other thing. But for myself it was indubitable and what happened later showed that I was right.

For a long time I sat and smoked in some kind of glade. When I returned to the house it was already dark on the small veranda. Thinking that everyone had gone to bed I went to my own room and went to bed myself. As a matter of fact G. and the others were at that time having supper on the large veranda. A little while after I had gone to bed a strange excitement again began in me, my pulse began to beat forcibly, and I again heard G.’s voice in my chest. On this occasion I not only heard but I replied mentally and G. heard me and answered me. There was something very strange in this conversation. I tried to find something that would confirm it as a fact but could find nothing. And after all it could have been “imagination” or a waking dream, because although I tried to ask G. something of a concrete nature that would have left no doubt about the conversation or his participation in it, I could not invent anything weighty enough. And certain questions I asked him and which he answered I could have asked and answered myself. I even had the impression that he avoided concrete answers which later might serve as “proofs,” and to one or two of my questions he intentionally gave indefinite answers. But the feeling that it was a conversation was very strong and entirely new and unlike anything else.

After one long pause G. asked me something that at once put me all on the alert, then stopped as if waiting for an answer.

What he said suddenly put a stop to all my thoughts and feelings. It was not fear, at least not a conscious fear when one knows that one is afraid, but I was all shivering and something literally paralyzed me completely so that I could not articulate a single word although I made terrible efforts, wishing to give an affirmative reply.

I felt that G. was waiting and that he would not wait long.

“Well, you are tired now,” he said at last, “we will leave it till another time.”

I began to say something, I think I asked him to wait, to give me a little time to get accustomed to this thought.

“Another time,” said his voice. “Sleep.” And his voice stopped.

I could not go to sleep for a long time. In the morning as I came out onto the little terrace where we had sat the evening before, G. was sitting in the garden twenty yards away near a round table; there were three of our people with him.

“Ask him what happened last night,” said G.

For some reason this made me angry. I turned and walked towards the terrace. As I reached it I again heard G.’s voice in my chest.

“Stop!”

I stopped and turned towards G. He was smiling.

“Where are you going, sit down here,” he said in his ordinary voice.

I sat with him but I could say nothing, nor did I want to talk. At the same time I felt a kind of extraordinary clarity of thought and I decided to try to concentrate on certain problems which had seemed to me to be particularly difficult. The thought came to my mind that in this unusual state I might perhaps find answers to questions which I could not find in the ordinary way.

I began to think about the first triad of the ray of creation, about the three forces which made one force. What could they mean? Can we define them? Can we realize their meaning? Something began to formulate itself in my head but just as I tried to translate this into words everything disappeared. —- Will, consciousness… and what was the third? I asked myself. It seemed to me that if I could name the third I would at once understand everything else.

“Leave it,” said G. aloud.

I turned my eyes towards him and he looked at me.

“That is a very long way away yet,” he said. “You cannot find the answer now. Better think of yourself, of your work.”

The people sitting with us looked at us in perplexity. G. had answered my thoughts. Then something very strange began that lasted the whole day and afterwards. We stayed in Finland three days longer. During these three days there were very many talks about the most varied subjects. And I was in an unusual emotional state all the time which sometimes began to be burdensome.

“How can this be got rid of? I cannot bear it any more,” I asked G.

“Do you want to go to sleep?” said G.

“Certainly not,” I said.

“Then what are you asking about? This is what you wanted, make use of it. You are not asleep at this moment!

I do not think that this was altogether true. I undoubtedly “slept” at some moments. Many things that I said at that time must have surprised my companions in this strange adventure very much. And I was surprised at many things myself. Many things were like sleep, many things had no relation whatever to reality. Undoubtedly I invented a lot. Afterwards it was very strange for me to remember the things I had said.

39. rich - March 10, 2019

38.Cult Survivor: it’s writing like this from O. that insures the future
harvest of fake guru/teachers will continue to grow

40. brucelevy - March 10, 2019

39. rich

It has nothing to do with O. It’s as it’s always been through time immemorial. Almost all “gurus” are predators, or on their way to being one..

41. brucelevy - March 10, 2019

This blog has really turned into a wankathon.

42. Cult Survivor - March 10, 2019

And now from Rodney Collin, Ouspensky’s foremost student, another expression of magical thinking:

“Of my own teacher I can only say that he also produced among his friends a play, of which they unwittingly but perfectly played their parts, and whose plot was his own death. Silent, he instructed them in their hearts, some recognizing and some not. ‘I will always be with you’, he too could say —- but lightly and smoking a cigarette, so that none noticed. Lying in bed in Surrey, he possessed with his own mind a young man flying over the Atlantic, whom he had already rid of an illusion. That morning dead, he walked with a traveler crossing London Bridge; and to another at the wheel of a car showed the nature of the universe.

Yet these tales are hard to believe. Of his achievement then let this present book stand witness, written this year following his death, of knowledge undeserved by me. Let him who can understand understand. For so it is.”

(Rodney Collin, “The Theory of Eternal Life”, page 119)

43. Artemis44 - March 10, 2019

If I were the author of those words I would jump from the tower of a church in Peru.

(Here gave his life Rodney Collin to project the harmony)

What a fucking bunch of bullshit, paraphrasing brucelevy.

44. Cult Survivor - March 10, 2019

Indeed.

45. crossroads - March 10, 2019

31. brucelevy

People don’t know what to do with their “intelligence”.
Intelligence reduced to five senses.
So, no Sixth Sense at all?
No intuition?

Cult Survivor I have some questions:

Are you a high caliber “king of clubs”? Just like Gurdjieff?
Do you have a business plan ready for your meeting in Grass Valley? the one that you so openly announce and displayed?
How come you turned around so fast after your discharge by Asaf – in quite bad terms as we heard, and now you are so active and darling here? Is this the flavor of your revenge? I remember when you were going around saying you were already a conscious being…You seem to be quite a smart pants!

Blogging is interesting. Is quite translucent… It is very easy to see the nature of the blogger – sooner or later… ask Nigel for example

46. Tim Campion - March 10, 2019

Cult Survivor, do you have any information about that photo, such as when it was taken and who’s in it? A Fellowship of Friends pilgrimage?

47. Cult Survivor - March 10, 2019

45. crossroads

Are you a high caliber “king of clubs”? Just like Gurdjieff?
I don’t work with those ideas anymore, but when I was in the FOF I was told I was a queen of hearts.

Do you have a business plan ready for your meeting in Grass Valley? the one that you so openly announce and displayed?
I don’t know what you are talking about. At any rate, you are welcome to join.

How come you turned around so fast after your discharge by Asaf – in quite bad terms as we heard, and now you are so active and darling here? Is this the flavor of your revenge?
Once again, I don’t know what you are talking about.

I remember when you were going around saying you were already a conscious being…You seem to be quite a smart pants!
Your trippin’ bro.

Blogging is interesting. Is quite translucent… It is very easy to see the nature of the blogger – sooner or later… ask Nigel for example
Quite true, as your post clearly demonstrates.

48. crossroads - March 10, 2019

I made my point, bro

49. Cult Survivor - March 10, 2019

46. Tim Campion

The photograph is from a “Journey to Peru” that Asaf organized in 2010. The picture was published on the Propylaia, the internal site of the FOF.

50. crossroads - March 10, 2019

ok smart pants –
you are either one or the other, but certainly I have my -intense- intuitions about you. Is that alright? Is it ok to have intuition?

51. Cult Survivor - March 10, 2019

48. crossroads

Good for you, I’m glad that makes you happy. Regarding your comment “now you are so active and darling here”, note that most people commenting here have been on this blog for several years (some more than a decade) and I’m here for only 4 months, so I’m in the early stages of the cathartic process.

52. Cult Survivor - March 10, 2019

50. crossroads

Intense intuitions? Are you a high caliber “king of clubs”?

Just kidding bro.

53. crossroads - March 10, 2019

Who said “It makes me happy” ?
You assume that having intense intuition makes me happy?

54. crossroads - March 10, 2019

So for you Intuition is a function of the “king of clubs” ?

55. rich - March 10, 2019

44.Cult Survivor: this shot is over the top

56. brucelevy - March 10, 2019

When are you guys going to stop waving your dicks at each other? Curious people want to know.

57. Artemis44 - March 10, 2019

56. brucelevy

What’s the source of your obsession with dicks? Curious people want to know.

58. brucelevy - March 10, 2019

57. Artemis44

Very glib. I guess you showed me.

59. Artemis44 - March 10, 2019

From https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/53nxzn/a-psychoanalyst-explains-why-men-draw-dicks-on-everything

Ask a psychoanalyst and they’ll tell you it’s obviously Freudian. “In psychoanalytic terms, castration is a core fear that everyone experiences, if not the core fear,” Dr. Vanessa Sinclair told me over email when I posed the question to her. “The classical example taken from Freud is that the little boy sees that his mother does not have a penis and this traumatizes him. He then fears that the same thing can happen to him —- that not only could he lose his penis, but that he could be exposed and everyone will see that he does not have one. It makes him feel vulnerable. He does not have the phallus -— perhaps he never did -—- and now everyone knows.”

She went on, “When you think of the phallus in a metaphorical sense, and not as a literal penis, it’s more about who has the power, who has the answer, who has what everyone is looking for. The reality of course is that no one has it. No one has the answer or the power, ultimately. They only do when others believe they do. As long as you are not fully exposed, you can keep people thinking that you have it. But there is a limit to that. So, essentially, the people who are drawing penises over and over again are trying to assert that they have the power. That they have the phallus and do not lack. That they’re not vulnerable. It’s the same classic example of older men who buy a sports car or motorcycle when their physical health and strength begins to decline.”

60. rich - March 10, 2019

42.Cult Survivor: my hard bound 1st British ed, 1956 differs
in the page reference. Small matter. There’s enough
esoteric bs to keep you twisted

61. Cult Survivor - March 10, 2019

60. rich

Thanks for the comment — my source was a PDF available online at

Click to access Rodney%20Collin%20-%20The%20Theory%20of%20Eternal%20Life.pdf

Regarding “enough esoteric bs to keep you twisted”, that’s an understatement.

62. Cult Survivor - March 11, 2019

WIKIPEDIA FOF ARTICLE UPDATE

I received the following reply from Wikipedia after my submission of the FOF article for review:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Fellowship_of_Friends

Submission declined on 8 March 2019 by Robert McClenon (talk).

This submission’s references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article—that is, they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the guidelines on the notability of organizations and companies). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see technical help and learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fellowship of Friends (2nd nomination).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Fellowship_of_Friends_(2nd_nomination)

In order to show notability of this organization after the deletion discussion, please either obtain a copy of the deleted article at Requests for Undeletion for comparison to demonstrate that this draft is substantially an improvement, or request Deletion Review.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, click on the “Edit” tab at the top of the window.
• If you have not resolved the issues listed above, your draft will be declined again and potentially deleted.
• If you need extra help, please ask us a question at the AfC Help Desk or get live help from experienced editors.
• Please do not remove reviewer comments or this notice until the submission is accepted.

Declined by Robert McClenon 5 seconds ago. Last edited by Robert McClenon 5 seconds ago. Reviewer: Inform author.

Resubmit Please note that if the issues are not fixed, the draft will be declined again.

Comment: See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fellowship of Friends (2nd nomination).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Fellowship_of_Friends_(2nd_nomination)

See WP:Markup for how to mark section headings. Section headings are delimited by equal signs (=), which are used to construct the table of contents of a page. Please edit this draft as specified before resubmitting. Do not use bold face in headings. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:25, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I’m planning to reply to the person that sent the message with the following points:

1. I’ll implement the cosmetic changes he indicated.
2. I’ll mention that from the list of Parcast podcasts of 40 cults below, only the Fellowship of Friends and the River Road Fellowship don’t have an article on Wikipedia (in bold below).
3. I’ll create a Wikipedia article for The River Road Fellowship (its leader Victor Barnard was sentenced in 2016 to 30 years in prison for sexually abusing 12- and 13-year old girls).

Any suggestions?

LIST OF CULT PODCASTS ON PARCAST

E01/02: The Manson Family – Charles Manson
E03/04: Heaven’s Gate – Marshall Applewhite & Bonnie Nettles
E05/06: Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God – Credonia Mwerinde & Joseph Kibweteere
E07/08: The Family – Anne Hamilton Byrne
E09/10: The Ant Hills Kids – Roch Thériault
E11: The Children of God – David Berg
E13/14: FLDS – Warren Jeffs
E15/16: Aum Shinrikyo – Shoko Asahara
E17/18: The Branch Davidians – David Koresh
E19/20: The Peoples Temple – Jim Jones
E21: True Russian Orthodox Church – Pyotr Kuznetsov
E22/23: Nuwaubian Nation – Dwight York
E24/25: Sect of Nacozari – Silvia Meraz
E26/27: Apostles of Infinite Love – Michel Collin & Jean-Gaston Tremblay
E28/29: Church of Euthanasia – Chris Korda
E30/31: Rajneeshpuram – Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh & Ma Anand Sheela
E32/33: The Brethren – Jimmie T. Roberts
E34/35: Twelve Tribes – Gene Spriggs (Yoneq)
E36/37: Oneida Community – John Humphrey Noyes
E38/39: The Moonies – Sun Myung Moon
E40/41: The Narcosatanists – Adolfo Constanzo & Sara Aldrete
E42: Leopard Society
E43/44: Order of the Solar Temple – Joseph Di Mambro
E45/46: Raëlism – Claude Vorilhon
E47/48: Church Universal and Triumphant – Elizabeth Clare Prophet
E49/50: Sahaja Yoga Movement – Nirmala Srivastava
E503: The Hernandez Brothers’s Cult – Magdalena Solís
E51/52: Lumpa Church – Alice Lenshina
E54/55: Mankind Project – Arthur Bell
E56/57: The Kirtland Cult – Jeffrey Lundgren
E58/59: The Church of the Last Testament – Sergey Anatolyevitch Torop (Vissarion)
E61/62: Church of Satan – Anton LaVey
E62/63: The Way International – Victor Paul Wierwille
E64/65: Freemasonry – The cult that built America
E66/67: Kashi Ashram – Ma Jaya
E68/69: Fellowship of Friends – Robert Earl Burton
E70/71: River Road Fellowship – Victor Barnard
E72: The Sons of Freedom / Doukhobors – Peter V. Verigin
E73/74: The Workers’ Institute – Aravindan Balakrishnan
E75: New Vrindaban – Kirtanananda Swami

63. Golden Veil - March 11, 2019

62. Cult Survivor – March 11, 2019

“Article contains nothing resembling a reliable source regarding this organization.” is the very first sentence here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Fellowship_of_Friends_(2nd_nomination)

One Comment that concurs with the above:

“I agree that the present article contains no information from reliably independent sources.”

I had mentioned to you in a prior post that the podcasts and blogs would not be accepted as credible sources.

and also beside the critique of no credible sources, this is especially an article killer – if others agree – that the cult is not notable enough for an article:

“I believe the present article is worse than nothing because it contains no indication of significant information that might be considered what actually makes the group notable.

Your information your article provides is very, very thin – the sections appear to me to be so sparse as to be presenting as an outline – with each section to be expanded on.

Cult Survivor, did you ask an experienced editor to help you by looking over your article – before you published it?

*** . I think that your best bet would be write on Robert McC*****’s Talk page about it. Tell him that you realize that the article wasn’t ready and you want to continue working on it, give the article more credibility and prove that the cult is notable. That you have found a more experienced editor that is helping you – and to please not delete the article – but allow you continue to work on it in a Sand Box (a draft that is not published or visible).

I think that your point about all the other cults having articles is a good one.

But credible sources and notability are the hurdles you will need to clear. Although the introduction is good at top, most other sections of the article are way too thin – it looks like an outline for an article.

Good idea to re-read what I wrote in the prior posts on page 167 or so about writing an article – read the Wikipedia articles I linked on how to write an article. I also suggested that you remove the Payment section. You cannot include information like that without a source.

I would also suggest that you request that the blog moderator remove your post – and at that point say that I agree that this one should be removed as well.

This is your (Third Party) footnote for the non-profit status, IRS.gov page:

https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/displayAll.do?dispatchMethod=displayAllInfo&Id=191508&ein=237233321&country=US&deductibility=all&dispatchMethod=searchAll&isDescending=false&city=Oregon+House&ein1=&postDateFrom=&exemptTypeCode=al&submitName=Search&sortColumn=orgName&totalResults=19&names=&resultsPerPage=25&indexOfFirstRow=0&postDateTo=&state=CA

64. WhaleRider - March 11, 2019

Somehow I don’t think Rodney Collin thought he could fly when he leaped to his death from a church tower. He probably was in a distressed state of mind as those in the FOF were who committed suicide.

And calling Gurdjieff a saint doesn’t make him one. Saints aren’t usually known for abusing their position of power to fuck their followers.

It’s also interesting to me to see how the FOF projects who the really are, self-serving, conscience lacking, sociopaths, onto the so-called “king of clubs”…like burton doesn’t have one.

65. Cult Survivor - March 11, 2019

63. Golden Veil

Thank you for your suggestions, I’ll read again the ones you gave me in the past. By the way, the person that sent the message is not an administrator, he is an experienced editor (I followed your suggestion of submitting the article to a senior editor for review before publication). Here is some information about him:

• He has been on Wikipedia since 2005.
• He is not a Wikipedia administrator.
• He is a computer programmer.
• He is a scientist.
• He believes in logic.
• He is a Roman Catholic Christian.
• “Editor of the Week” for the week beginning July 5th, 2015 for his work mediating disputes, as well as at the Help Desk, administrative noticeboards, and providing valuable personal insight.
• Quote from his bio: “I had originally intended to contribute a few articles on subjects of which I have knowledge. However, it seems that much of my time is being spent in responding to disputes and problematical editors. We have problematical editors on Wikipedia because editors are human and humans are problematical.”

He seems to me a very good person to review the article.

66. Cult Survivor - March 11, 2019

64. WhaleRider

It’s also interesting to me to see how the FOF projects who the really are, self-serving, conscience lacking, sociopaths, onto the so-called “king of clubs”…like burton doesn’t have one.

Yesterday I was telling a friend about my experience in the FOF and she asked to see a picture of Robert Burton. I googled his name and showed her the picture below. Her reaction: “Oh my God, I can’t look at him, he is too creepy. The dog is cute though.” Burton’s king of clubs comes out even in the most tender moments.

67. Golden Veil - March 11, 2019

65. Cult Survivor – March 11, 2019

I had already read about him. He does sound fair-minded. If you ask for his help, ask him questions, you have a better chance of the article making the final cut. Definitely maintain a humble demeanor. It would be really cool if you could keep your current references – and maybe pull more from the news paper articles. Make sure that you get every article. Your co-editors are another source. I still think it’s a good idea to get rid of these posts; ask the moderator to delete them (my permission to delete this one.) .

** As a former member you are not qualified to write the article. Remember that when communicating with all the other editors. They really want neutrality, especially with contentious subjects like this may end up being.

I think you should put in the Buzb** lawsuit stuff, as factually as possible. Never express an opinion. Stick to facts and try to be even-handed. Good idea to request these posts are removed right away. Other editors may be researching and find them.

Re-read the newspaper articles and see if you can find mention of payment. If you can find nothing you really need to remove that section.

Good idea to not write anymore about this here on the blog. These posts need to be removed. (Broken record!)

68. Golden Veil - March 11, 2019

65. Cult Survivor – March 11, 2019

I had read about him. He does sound fair-minded. If you ask for his help, ask him questions, you have a better chance of the article making the final cut. Definitely maintain a humble demeanor. It would be really cool if you could keep your current references – and maybe pull more from the newspaper articles. Make sure that you get every article. Your co-editors are another source.

** As a former member you are not qualified to write the article. Remember that when communicating with all the other editors. They really want neutrality, especially with contentious subjects like this article may end up being.

I think you should put in the Buzb** lawsuit stuff, as factually as possible. Never express an opinion. Stick to facts and try to be even-handed.

Re-read the newspaper articles and see if you can find mention of payment. If you can find nothing you really need to remove that section.

Good idea to not write anymore about this here on the blog and to request that the moderator remove these blog posts (nos. 62. 63. 65. 67) as soon as possible. Other editors may be researching and find them.

69. brucelevy - March 11, 2019

59. Artemis44

That exactly was the point of my metaphor.

70. Insider - March 11, 2019

46. Tim Campion

Since Cult Survivor did not fully answer your questions, the person placing flowers on the plaque is Asaf Braverman; in the middle is Mario F*nt*ni; on the left is a FF member named Emilio. Mario and his wife were the facilitators of this trip to Peru in 2010, which included some 20 FF members.

71. ton2u - March 11, 2019

Looked at parts of the recent HBO doc – Leaving Neverland… and the Oprah follow up interview. It’s about sexual abuse of children… I met burton and the FOF at the age of 21, technically I was not a “child’ but I do think that my encounter with burton amounts to sexual abuse… it’s an abuse of his position of “power and authority” over members of his “flock.” I could see many parts of my experience with burton and the FOF reflected in the story told in Leaving Neverland. “Grooming” of the victims by the perpetrator was a salient part of the discussion… making the target of sexual abuse feel special… e.g. in my case living in the “Blake Cottage” traveling to Europe, regularly dining with “teacher,” extra attention by “teacher,” etc. Another word for the process in the context of cult dynamics might be “brain-washing.” It was pointed out in the interview that an important aspect of the grooming process was the emphasis on secrecy and silence concerning the sex acts between victim and perp. This rang a bell for me… at the time I was being “groomed” for burton’s “harem” secrecy and silence about sex was a major concern for “teacher” – for my part as an obedient and “faithful student” I considered the oath of secrecy an inviolable part of the “trust” between us. Another aspect of the interview which rang a bell was when one of the victims being interviewed mentioned that even these many years later he had reservations about exposing the truth about what had happened, that he still felt that he was violating a trust which had bonded he the victim and perp. I remember not long after I left the FOF, a proxy for Samuel Sanders searched me out while I was living in S.F. and tried diligently to recruit me to be part of the lawsuit Sanders was filing. I refused to be part of it… I think part of the reason was because I was trying to put the FOF episode behind me wanting to get on with my life as best I could… but beneath that, the “loyalty pledge” to secrecy was still operating within me. Now I feel sorry for my complicity in deceit.

72. ton2u - March 11, 2019

73. Cult Survivor - March 11, 2019

71. ton2u

Thank you for posting this, the parallels between Burton and Jackson are very clear.

Besides the ones you mentioned, another example is when one of the 2 victims of Jackson was asked why he didn’t tell people about the abuse and he replied “Michael told me not to tell people, he said that they would take his money and send both of us to jail”. I was thinking about Burton saying to his victims that it’s “feminine dominance and the instinctive center” that don’t want to be intimate with him (I’m certain that that was changed to “the lower self” when that concept was introduced in the FOF around 2008). In both cases the victim is coerced to be silent by fear of the repercussions to the perpetrator and the victim itself; in the case of Jackson, poverty and jail, in Burton’s case, “being controlled by the lower self” and thus losing the school and the possibilities of awakening.

Another interesting parallel is that Jackson was openly taking his victims to the amusement park at Neverland, sleeping with them in the same bed, being filmed holding hands with them during interviews, etc. and Burton’s victims travel with him, some live with him, hold hands with him during events, etc. This way the abusers project the image that nothing wrong is happening and that the victims are happy and content.

74. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 11, 2019

Views from the Wrong World
An in depth review of:
Views from the Real World
(Book, Early Talks of G. I. Gurdjieff)

“Glimpses of Truth”

(Random quotes from the pages of Glimpses of Truth):

“Spellbound by the beauty and grandeur of this thought, I
had gradually ceased to listen to the words. I could say that I
felt them, that I grasped his thought not with my reason but
by intuition. Man far below was reduced to nothingness, and
disappeared leaving no trace. I was filled with a sense of closeness
to the Great Inscrutable, and with the deep consciousness
of my personal nothingness.”

According to Gurdjieff’s fictionalize testimonial to his own powers of persuasion the perspective student subjected to his conscious dissertation was “spellbound by beauty and grandeur” when exposed to Gurdjieff’s “thought”. The applicant felt after an interminable length of lecturing a “consciousness of his own personal nothingness”. He experienced this vacancy of his own existence even though he had “gradually ceased to listen to the words”. The “Great Inscrutable” had filled his “intuition”. Non-rational emotion began filling in the blank stretches left open in the sketchy logic of the overall ideology.

The emotional trance state produced by ideas so lofty that they cease to engage the reason is exactly the psychological fare that feeds all religious fanaticism. And make no mistake, this is exactly what Gurdjieff wants around him, fanatical followers dedicated to surviving the near un-survivable curse of being alive on Earth. The true believer and the dedicated disciple’s mind gives up all attempts at reasonable understanding while at the same time encouraging the emotions to take over, projecting their sense of magnificence and splendor onto the persona of the man who inspires the following with knowledge beyond words, with words beyond comprehension.

Religious passion is romantic love mutated and refocused on the inexplicable ideas of the metaphysical. The state of revelatory ecstasy itself becomes the object of sexual fascination. The unfortunate initiate experiencing the phenomenon believes he or she is having a powerful dose of higher realization, but what is actually happening is that their emotive idealism is simply having an orgasm.

The person experiencing this phenomenon of emotive orgasm believes he understands some great truth, she insists she is now witness to the ultimate spiritual source, but when questioned about all this revelatory insight the individual is inevitably found to be inarticulate and intellectually confused. The believer believes he knows something great, but is at the same time unable to make logical sense about all this over-powering revelation. In other words, the individual is emotionally hypnotized into an irrational religious psychological posture that has no reasonable or rational foundation. There is hardly a more debilitating form of psychological ineptitude.

Ecstatic religious emotion is very appealing to those with a penchant for desiring nothing other than to mindlessly, witlessly, join up with a vaguely defined electric-current stemming from the “Great Inscrutable” itself and then dutifully following orders of the Inscrutable’s chosen prophet until finally meeting face to face with God.

“As though divining my thoughts, Mr. Gurdjieff asked: “We
started with man, and where is he? But great, all-embracing is
the law of unity. Everything in the Universe is one…”

“Again I repeat, all in the world is one…” -Gurdjieff, Glimpses of Truth

This is the predictable manipulation routine at work here:

Thought terminating cliché…

‘It Is All One…and so how can you or anyone else disagree with the overwhelming scope of my view of the real world? We Are All One. Now that you know THAT there is nothing to do but accept in gratitude and peace the inevitability of all that I tell you so that you may escape from your self-created cage of YOU. YOU are part of ALL…but only IF you can give up “you” and come into ALL. I am the gatekeeper of ALL. Follow me beyond yourself. What have you got to lose except the crappy life that drove you here in the first place?’

Spider gurus like Gurdjieff have many idealistic tools they use to catch flies.

75. Cult Survivor - March 11, 2019

74. Four Days of the Fourth State

I agree with Golden Veil, this is definitively book material. “Debunking G.I. Gurdjieff, the Grand Master of The Fourth Way” is a great title by the way. Chapters on Ouspensky, Collin, Horn and Burton would be in order. I’m sure there are plenty of people here that would be very happy to review the draft of the book; you can count on me.

76. WhaleRider - March 12, 2019

Cult Leader Makes Startling New Prediction

Oxygen House, CA-Robert E. Burton, repulsive leader of a Northern California Camel Cult has recently announced to his followers that despite what scientists have claimed, and as a direct result of his group’s compassionate efforts, the world will not come to an end in 2031, give or take a few years, due to sudden climate change.

“Climatologists have warned us that the threshold for atmospheric carbon dioxide has now breached the 440 parts per million tipping point which they say in about 12 more years will trigger a new ice age and mass extinction event”, said Burton in a spectacularly lucid moment during one of his meat-based dinners. “But we’ve never believed in Science or common sense, have we? CO2 Influence has magically indicated to me that our school will counter that disasterous effect when my “holding three breaths exercise” goes viral and saves the world when all of humanity produces less carbon dioxide.”

Pathologically compliant followers were left wordless and slightly blue in the face as this is a radical departure from his many earlier failed apocalyptic predictions and marks a new chapter as his “school quickens its pace” of promoting spurious spirituality.

“Don’t hold your breath”, one ex-follower stated as they were seen stocking up on sunscreen, tofu jerky, and down parkas, “his predictions are always wrong.”

77. Bryan Reynolds - March 12, 2019

Several thoughts from previous pages.

141 John Harmer

The Gurdjieffian dictum to work against the machine, “Do what the machine does not wish to do” as people repeatedly advised each other when I was a member, is almost tailor made to enable Burton to take advantage of heterosexual men…

I thought this was an inciteful post. In this context it is easy to see how “Do what the machine does not wish to do” can used to justify any sort of abusive or self-destructive behavior. In a twisted way the perpetrator can become convinced he is a victim of his compulsion.

45. Artemis44

I predict that in less than 10 years the Fourth Way would be gone forever (Fourth Way books disappeared from the shelves of physical bookstores long time ago).

I agree and hopefully the cults that pushed these ideas will disappear also.

I am optimistic that the form that future spiritual organizations will be more flexible and in touch with possibilities and potentials of the people involved.

I am still struck by what a waste of human potential the FOF was.

78. Golden Veil - March 12, 2019

75. Cult Survivor – March 11, 2019

Read this review of the book that is a compendium of the esoteric knowledge that Four Days of the Fourth State has been dissecting here on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion. If he could approach debunking his subject in as multi-faceted a fashion as Gurdjieff presented his philosophy in All and Everything
Beelzebub’s Tales To His Grandson, An Objectively Impartial Criticism of Man ~ he might have a book. But, oh – what an undertaking that would be. Thus far his investigations have been rather elementary and his findings unholistic.

https://www.gurdjieff.org/owens1.htm

79. Cult Survivor - March 12, 2019

78. Golden Veil – March 12, 2019

Good point. On the other hand, an ebook that discusses Gurdjieff, the Fourth Way, Burton and the FOF from the point of view of cults is overdue. A condensation of this blog, so to speak, could be very useful for people interested in joining a 4th Way group/cult and for scholars doing research on cults — who has the time to read 170 pages with over 20,000 comments?

80. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 12, 2019

Not writing a book. Wouldn’t waste the time on countering what every normal person immediately recognizes as idiocy as soon as they read the first page. I’m just jotting down some comments about Gurdjieff’s nonsensical “fourth way” on the off chance someone out there won’t waste his or her life on it.

81. Golden Veil - March 12, 2019

79. Cult Survivor – March 12, 2019

Maybe someone will read your Wikipedia article and be inspired to write a book about the ostensibly Fourth Way school that is actually a cult helmed by a magical thinking leader.

Any material on Gurdjieff would be just anecdotal and of only minor importance if someone is writing a book to shed light on Robert Earl Burton and the 40 plus year history of the Fellowship of Friends.

Getting into Gurdjieff would be like peeling an onion of infinite skin.

82. rich - March 12, 2019

81.Golden Veil, right, leave G. out of it, make at about RB.

83. Cult Survivor - March 12, 2019

81. Golden Veil – March 12, 2019

After reading your comment leaving Gurdjieff out seems common sense. I’m traveling back the blog fishing for videos and songs for the YouTube channel, and I’ll collect the most remarkable posts and — who knows — an ebook may be born out of that. Tim’s REB site is also a good source.

84. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 12, 2019

There are many Gurdjieff/Fourth Way cults out there. All them destructive.

85. Golden Veil - March 12, 2019

84. Four Days of the Fourth State – March 12, 2019

“There are many Gurdjieff/Fourth Way cults out there. All them destructive.”

I disagree ~ if you are including the Gurdjieff Foundation in your blanket description all “Gurdjieff /Fourth Way cults”.

Am I correct in recalling that you once wrote that you were a member of the Gurdjieff Foundation? If you personally experienced any kind of destructiveness within the Gurdjieff Foundation, will you please give an idea of what happened?

86. rich - March 12, 2019

84.FDFS: maybe so…but most bloggers here have experience
in FOF…

87. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 13, 2019

Saint Gurdjieff.

One of the things people need to know about the Gurdjieff Foundation (one of their least cult corruptions) is that Gurdjieff’s eccentric actions in relation to the women in his cult is seen as a positive sign of masculine adventurism. One expression you hear in the Gurdjieff Foundation cult from the brainwashed ‘awakening people’ is that Gurdjieff was no “saint”, meaning his sexual exploits and his dishonesty were very good traits. Gurdjieff appropriated his followers’ wives and used them as concubines–sex slaves. The husbands of these women were meek, subservient cuckolds while Gurdjieff openly used many of the the women (if not all of them) as his personal harem. The Gurdjieff Foundation is privately, internally, proud of this fact–that their no-saint saint was the grand alpha male aggressor who ruled the roost as he felt entitled to do.

This is the least point of shared ignorance among this cult of self-exalting “awakening” elites.

88. Golden Veil - March 13, 2019

87. Four Days of the Fourth State – March 13, 2019

This is such odd hearsay. I have never heard anything remotely like that before. Thank you for sharing your experience of the “destructive” nature of your time with the Gurdjieff Foundation.

89. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 13, 2019

General cult information: You can’t directly communicate with people when they still have the disease.

90. WhaleRider - March 13, 2019

Having lived during the Armenian Genocide (lucky for him he was Russian Armenian not Turkish) and two World Wars, IMO, Gurdjieff didn’t need to make apocalyptic predictions to assemble his cult following, the mass insanity of gruesome, large scale death and destruction of mechanized warfare was and continued to be inescapably on full display in his part of the world.

I remember when I joined the FOF in the late 70’s, the Cold War was also in full swing, burton was claiming that “Russian Subs were operating right off the coast” (which was probably true) and “Hydrogen warfare” as he called it, seemed imminent as he falsely predicted it would.

That fit with my mindset at the time. I was operating under the delusion that rather than escaping to a tropical island to wait out the impending apocalypse, it seemed more reasonable to escape into new age spirituality blossoming back then. Plus I wasn’t about to join the military after the Vietnam War fiasco, and I had recently dropped out of college.

But meditating or doing yoga didn’t seem like enough; I needed a surrogate family as mine was disintegrating with my parent’s divorce.

I believe joining a gang, cult or fundamentalist religion most likely has a great deal to do with context and circumstances in addition to flawed or immature personality traits, and those in desperate situations are likely to make the choice as an easy way out of the dire or complex situation in which they find themselves…hence the FOF’s recruiting efforts in Putin’s Russia after the fall of communism.

91. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 13, 2019

92. brucelevy - March 13, 2019

91. Four Days of the Fourth State

The woman who literally branded other women in the Nxivm cult and led them to virtual slavery to their guru Keith Raniere. Also an actress from Supergirl.

93. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 13, 2019

She had a part on Smallville, a television series about Superman growing up. Doesn’t seem like a merciless sociopath does she? Her guru just had child porn charges added to his list of sex crimes.

Warning, these people have a long history of suing people for years on end for even so much as badmouthing them. The money behind the cult, the Seagram sisters (yes the booze company), spent a fortune on lawyers on the demand of the cult guru Raniere.

https://pagesix.com/2018/08/13/seagrams-heiress-puts-pad-up-as-collateral-for-nxivm-sex-cult-linked-sister/

94. WhaleRider - March 13, 2019

The FOF cult had its own well known TV actress as a follower during my time…

https://books.google.fr/books?id=r-8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=laurie+walters+fellowship+of+friends&source=bl&ots=7l9zF00xPk&sig=ACfU3U370N9ijbSD36mZ4XU9I2ocJ-UomA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4xoeo6oDhAhVNA2MBHZufDP4Q6AEwDHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=laurie%20walters%20fellowship%20of%20friends&f=false

To make an impression as part of my indoctrination, burton arranged for her to give me a ride in her Mercedes once when I accompanied him on a trip down in LA.

95. brucelevy - March 13, 2019

93. Four Days of the Fourth State

That’s right, Smallville. Thanks.

Laurie Walters was so upset when RB told her her chief feature was vanity. It was pretty funny. Up at the Lodge.

96. rich - March 13, 2019

Didn’t Marlon Brando have an interest in FOF back when? he
didn’t join, but may have made a comment……any bloggers know?

97. Golden Veil - March 13, 2019

94. WhaleRider – March 13, 2019

Ah, another newspaper article, date: July 14, 1981 ~ incase you are looking, Cult Survivor, and haven’t seen this article yet. The paper looks a little iffy, but I would use it!.

Thanks, Whalerider!

By the way, regarding your observation of your excursion with actress L**rie W*lt*rs:

“To make an impression as part of my indoctrination, burton arranged for her to give me a ride in her Mercedes once when I accompanied him on a trip down in LA.”

there’s another way to put that which might be more apt than the Fellowship of Friends language:

“As part of my grooming, burton arranged for her to give me a ride in her Mercedes once when I accompanied him on a trip down in LA.”

Did you watch any of that video interview by Oprah of the two men who as young children were “groomed” by Michael Jackson? You were being groomed, Whalerider.

98. brucelevy - March 14, 2019

96. rich

If I remember correctly Brando had a mild interest and sent someone else to a prospective student meeting to let him know what was what but it didn’t pan out. Virtually all cults, if they can, cultivate celebrity.

99. Pyewacket - March 14, 2019

Bruce #98

“Virtually all cults, if they can, cultivate celebrity.”

In the 1970’s, outside the Scientologist’s London recruiting office, which I remember was on Tottenham Court Road, in the touristy heart of the city, they had an A board on the pavement, inviting interested parties to come inside for a “Free Personality Test”. Above this, as some kind of incitement or inducement to encourage the interest of young impressionable minds, was a list of prominent celebrities, from Music & Showbiz, whom it was claimed were some part of the Scientology Organisation. One name I recall was Carlos Santana, but there were others, equally recognisable, if not memorable after all this time. Btw L Ron Hubbard was still alive then, but, I think; he was living as a kind of fugitive on a yacht.

100. Pyewacket - March 14, 2019

PS: More recently I’ve watched a TV Documentary titled “Going Clear”, which is about the Scientologists under the post L.Ron leader, a David Miscavige. It appears they still employ the cult of celebrity to reinforce their following. Two prominent, if nowadays, somewhat dated, Hollywood actors are claimed to be high ranking and highly placed members in the form of John Travolta & the bloke who starred in Top Gun, I can’t remember his name. Anyway, it also looks like L. Ron’s Sci-Fi thought experiment is doing rather well under the New Management, they’re worth $billions and as litigious as Hell, having even beaten the IRS in Court.

101. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 14, 2019

102. WhaleRider - March 14, 2019

Four Days of the Fourth State:
Welcome to the wonderful world of hypnosis and faith healing.

Dr James Braid, a Scottish surgeon accomplished the same effects practicing medicine in India during the early 1800’s as John “of God”…no anesthesia, no pain, no infection, and speedy recovery, before doctors got the idea of washing their hands or sterilizing their instruments before surgery. The Hindu locals probably thought the Dr was from God, too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Braid_(surgeon)

As far as the bleeding from the “non-believer” with the Harvard Tee shirt, we are talking about the tropics here, an environment where all sorts of insects and animals that deploy various chemical compounds exist.

IMO, he could have easily been stung or bitten or poked by something with chemical compounds that block both pain and blood clotting for feeding purposes (found in vampire bats, for instance) or he simply hadn’t noticed because he also was in an altered state witnessing an event outside his comfort zone.

Of course, the magical explanation for why that happened was readily available from one of the healer’s followers, who would rather believe in magic or God than believe in the amazing inherent abilities of our bodies.

103. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 14, 2019
104. WhaleRider - March 14, 2019

Four Days of the Fourth State:
Curious how the author Mr Bond neglected to mention in the above article exactly which mental illness was cured using his rather glib description of these ideas, which undoubtedly did not originate from Gurdjieff in his so-called method of awakening. I would wager he is trading one form of anxiety for another, the FOMO (fear of missing out) of enlightenment.

And he also neglected to mention two of the most nefarious “core” ideas of the fourth way, theoretically one needs to find and pay an “awakened” teacher in order to evolve, placing one’s will and agency at the whims of another.

Personally, I take offense that Bond and other fourth way aficionados demonize the unconscious by using the term, “zombies”.

Some of the greatest works of art, insights and discoveries were made in this so-called “zombie-like” trance state, (in which there is still multi-tasking consciousness or none of these insights, healings, and discoveries would have been actualized), by far more beneficial to humanity than the conscious lies that are told and acted upon to fulfill a political agenda, for instance, such as the hunt for “weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq or “building a wall” on the Mexican border to keep out “hordes” of immigrants, largely women and children, fleeing persecution.

105. Michael Kearney - March 14, 2019

26 truthorconsequences
Another Frenchman interested in chemistry, in this case organic chemistry, was Louis Kervran. He wrote books, around the middle of the last century, about transmutations of elements by living things. He gives examples of chemical tests that prove his contention. He did not understand why mainstream science refused to listen to him, and others before him, who had studied this matter. But I can understand why mainstream science was not interested. Transmutations of elements by living organisms would contradict modern sciences outlook in general, and theories in detail. According to modern science, a living thing is essentially the same as a machine, invented and built by human beings. No invisible, mysterious force called “life” animates a gasoline motor, and neither does such a thing animate a living organism. But transmutations of elements by life points in the opposite direction. According to science, many of the transmutations spoken of by Kervran would require the input of a huge amount of energy. And the newly created element would contain that energy in the material of it’s construction, once created. But obviously, no such energy is available in a living organism for such a thing. So the whole business is impossible from the point of view of modern science. Once again, we seem to have a case of something from nothing, (in this case energy) or we have a case of something from a higher invisible world, a higher world that creates things for the tangible world of the scientists.

106. Golden Veil - March 14, 2019

104. WhaleRider – March 14, 2019

I appreciate your reflections, Whalerider, and agree that this statement by Henry Bond, “Most often, we walk through life unconsciously, as if we were zombies.” is rather glib.

Regarding your comments about it, yes it is likely that the great classical works of art were not made in an unconscious state but definitely in a state of heightened awareness.

The Fourth Way is not a necessity to be present or to create great art.

107. WhaleRider - March 14, 2019

Golden Veil:
Thanks, I appreciate your feedback.

IMO, here is an example of the FOF’s mystification that surrounds the words “unconscious” and “conscious”, which I have wanting to comment upon for the last page or two.

To me, simply put, to be unconscious means to be unaware, as when a person is in “defensive” mode, actively projecting their flaws upon others, blaming or name calling for instance…or in an unconscious state as in coma, totally oblivious to their surroundings.

Conscious generally means to me that one’s will and intention are activated, although, and this runs counter to FOF and fourth way programming, IMO, one can be conscious or self-aware during the process of lucid dreaming during sleep—another word IMO that has become corrupted.

So I would counter argue that although great classical works were say, written or acted upon with a great deal of conscious intention and will, the inspiration and insight which I mentioned above for those works more than likely happened in a trance-like state, even while daydreaming, performing a mundane task, or sometimes as a result of a peculiar dream.

A good example of this is the time distortion that occurs in a trance-like state when an artist is engrossed in creating their art…or when daydreaming and one’s attention is more skewed toward introversion rather than extroversion…a totally normal occurrence, not extraordinary, IMO.

I believe that from the outside a person may appear “unconscious” or “asleep” when staring off, but in my experience there is still an element of self-awareness when daydreaming, for example, just as there is an element of unconsciousness or lack of self-awareness i.e. during a defensive reaction like when projecting while conscious and awake. (Symbolized as the Yin and Yang of consciousness, you might say.)

So in order to understand each other, we need to agree on what constitutes a so-called “higher state”.

I hold that self-awareness exists regardless of what state one is in, whether introverted or extroverted, otherwise one would not remember our insights or be dead.

IMO, Gurdjieff’s the fourth way leads to confusion about what constitutes the range of human awareness. It’s easy to point to another person staring off into space or running from the trenches into machine gun fire and be fooled into thinking they are “asleep” or “unconscious”. But I beg to differ.

Both persons could be considered in a “higher state” if for example the daydreamer was having an insight about a cure for cancer or the soldier was bravely facing death fighting for his or her higher ideals, like freedom from oppression and tyranny.

If you study the source of the great classical works of art, you’ll find that creative inspiration comes spontaneously from the unconscious more often than through conscious trial and error.

Sometimes you have to step away and engage your mind in something else for the unconscious to produce the insight or answer, whether it be problem solving or writing a great novel or poem. And luckily we have the scientific method which seeks to be able to consciously produce results, too, separating reality from delusion.

Although Dr James Braid witnessed the seemingly miraculous effect of the power of suggestion, he never abandoned his practice of medicine to help others and wisely so.

Men like Anton Mesmer and Gurdjieff made grandiose claims to possess “animal magnetism” or could “kill a yak from a mile away”, disempowering and decieving others, and leading them astray in order to make a living.

burton claims to speak with angels and his following buys into it and puts up with his bullshit essentially from low self-esteem, IMO.

In Ancient Greek times, it was customary to go to a temple overnight to have inspirational dreams, and if none manifested, then for a donation of some sort the temple priests or priestess would have one for you.

There are many examples of this naturally occurring process you might term a “higher state”. The Koran, for instance, was written as a result of such a state in a cave.

Christian Saints had “visions”, too. Was that that a conscious, intentional process? Well, maybe if you intentionally ingest a hallucinogen, but history is full of otherwise ordinary people not seeking a so-called “higher state” like Joan of Arc receiving “divine guidance” from what she believed was her God, but IMO, originated from her fertile and creative unconscious…that often gets a bad rap and for good reason…it also produces horrible thoughts and images too, which sometimes misguided or mentally ill people act upon, and that is why horror movies can be enticing to some.

It also is the source of humor, bodily functions, emotions, habit center, intuition and our immune system, as well as creativity.

So if you don’t mind, please help me understand what your understanding and experience of higher states are for you.

I look forward to your response.

Sincerely and respectfully yours,
WR

108. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 14, 2019

105. Michael Kearney

“According to modern science, a living thing is essentially the same as a machine, invented and built by human beings. No invisible, mysterious force called “life” animates a gasoline motor, and neither does such a thing animate a living organism. But transmutations of elements by life points in the opposite direction.”

Life was not created by a conscious spirit father of the universe:

https://www.wired.com/story/controversial-new-theory-suggests-life-wasnt-a-fluke-of-biologyit-was-physics/

109. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 14, 2019

The Great Healer Gurdjieff Treats a Woman For Mycobacterium Tuberculosis

On the leader’s [Gurdjieff] instructions, a special balcony was constructed for her in the cowshed, for rest, or, perhaps, to renew her strength through the radiation of animal magnetism, or perhaps simply for the healthy smell of fresh manure.

It was a tiny wooden balcony, artistically designed, with a small staircase of five or six steps, surrounded by a balustrade gilded in Eastern style. The floor was covered with mattresses and real Eastern rugs. Cushions and round pouffes, covered with coloured tapestry, invited one to rest and gaze at the ceiling, cleverly painted by
our talented artist with all kinds of birds, insects and little animals hiding among fanciful branches. Among them one could detect caricatures of all the inmates of the house. Under the balcony stood our three cows and the mule, Drafit.

When my turn came to work for a week in the cowshed, I gave special care to the little balcony; I decorated the staircase with leaves and branches, and used to sit and wait for Mrs. Murry (we used to call Katherine Mansfield by her married name). Looking very serious, she would walk up the stairs slowly, carrying a notebook. I began milking the cow and, as ordered, used to take her a glass of fresh milk. I do not know whether she liked fresh milk, or whether it was repulsive to her, but she drank it, saying how amusing it was to listen to the sound of the flowing milk, and that she could judge by the sound whether I was tired, or in what mood I was; she realised that though I was not accustomed to manual labour no easy tasks were given to me.

[..]

In the evening after dinner, Katherine Mansfield and husband listened to some music in the drawing-room, and afterwards, going up stairs to her room, she forgot every caution, and ran up quickly as any healthy person might do without touching the banister. He followed her, and she had hardly entered her room when blood spurted from her mouth. Her husband ran for the doctor who lived in the house, and met me in the corridor as I was taking hot water to them. On entering the room I saw the patient sitting on the edge of her bed, covering her mouth with her hands, blood was oozing through her fingers, I ran to her with a towel. Gasping for breath she called for her husband, and stared at the door with her eyes wide with terror. I ran out and met him in the corridor hastening along with the doctor. I did not return to her room, but threw myself on my bed and wept.

Click to access KM_05_2006_02_KAFIAN_Last_Days_KM.pdf

110. Cult Survivor - March 14, 2019

108. Four Days of the Fourth State – March 14, 2019

Interesting article, thank you for posting. This video is from the article:

Modern science is starting to understand what ancient cultures knew: the Sun is the creator of life on Earth.

Ra, Egyptian solar deity

111. Four Days of the Fourth State - March 14, 2019
112. Cult Survivor - March 14, 2019

101. Four Days of the Fourth State – March 14, 2019

Regarding “John of God”, apparently he was performing some very interesting surgeries on women.

This is from Wikipedia (“Faria” is John of God, his real name is João Teixeira de Faria):

Twelve women have alleged that Faria abused them. The case was widely reported in various media outlets in Brazil and around the world. The number of claims led to the Prosecution Office of the State of Goiás creating an e-mail address and phone line to receive all accusations towards the medium. In 30 hours, more than 200 complaints were received, from 9 different states, including two claims from outside of Brazil. Claims were reported by the prosecution’s office as having potential to be the biggest sexual scandal in the history of Brazil, overwhelming the Roger Abdelmassih scandal. Claims allege abuse of victims as young as 14 years old, as well as a woman that revealed having being abused for three days. In December 11, 2018, four days after the “Conversa com Bial” show, the number of sexual abuse complaints against the medium had reached 206, in multiple Brazilian states, leading to Faria limiting his appointments at Casa Dom Inácio de Loyola. Questioned by reporters, the medium only said “I’m innocent” and walked away amid the protection of people around him. On December 12, 2018, the public prosecutor of the Brazilian state of Goiás called for the arrest of Faria after allegations of sexual abuse. On December 16, 2018, João de Deus surrendered himself to the police near the city of Abadiânia, in the state of Goiás, Brazil. The number of sexual abuse accusations has reached 300. His own daughter, Dalva Teixeira, 49, stands among the accusers and called him a “monster” and alleged she was beaten and raped by the medium until she ran away when she was 14 years old.

Another sexual predator masqueraded as a saint.

113. brucelevy - March 15, 2019
114. Just the Facts Ma'am - March 15, 2019

170/90 WhaleRider:
“I remember when I joined the FOF in the late 70’s, the Cold War was also in full swing, burton was claiming that “Russian Subs were operating right off the coast” (which was probably true) and “Hydrogen warfare” as he called it, seemed imminent as he falsely predicted it would.”

If “Hydrogen warfare” were to happen, it is sad to say, Oregon House and the Fellowship of Friends (FoF) compound would have little chance of surviving the first round of enemy bombs going off. Here is why: Beale Air Force Base is around 15 miles, as the crow flies, from Oregon House and would be one of the first targets. This is what Wikipedia says about Beale (edited a little here):

“Beale Air Force Base . . .is a United States Air Force base located approximately 8 miles (13 km) east of Marysville, California.

The host unit at Beale is the 9th Reconnaissance Wing (9 RW) assigned to the Air Combat Command and part of Twenty-Fifth Air Force. The 9 RW collects intelligence essential for Presidential and Congressional decisions critical to the national defense. To accomplish this mission, the wing is equipped with the nation’s fleet of U-2 Dragon Lady and RQ-4 Global Hawk unmanned aircraft and associated support equipment. The wing also maintains a high state of readiness in its combat support and combat service support forces for potential deployment in response to theater contingencies.”

First targets are to take out the enemy’s eyes and ears. Beale fills that bill. It is probably a hardened site and, for that reason, would get more than a small nuke. The average nuke in U.S. and Russian arsenals are around 5 Megaton. Oregon House may not be wiped off the map by the blast, but you can be sure that the sierra foothills will be on fire in a manner that would make last year’s worst ever in the history of California fire in and about Paradise, California, look like a friendly neighborhood barbeque – not that I am trying to make light of that disaster. The damage level will also depend on the elevation of detonation and Oregon House is only at about 2000 feet; Beale about 200 feet.

Here is what can be learned on the internet:
“Thermal radiation radius (3rd degree burns): 24.5 km (~15 miles)
Third degree burns extend throughout the layers of skin, and are often painless because they destroy the pain nerves. They can cause severe scarring or disablement, and can require amputation. 100% probability for 3rd degree burns at this yield . . .

Air blast radius (1 psi): 33.8 km (~21 miles)
At a around 1 psi overpressure, glass windows can be expected to break. This can cause many injuries in a surrounding population who comes to a window after seeing the flash of a nuclear explosion (which travels faster than the pressure wave). Often used as a standard benchmark for light damage in cities. Optimal height of burst to maximize this effect is 7.99 km.” (~26,000 feet)

So, if a 5 Megaton nuke was detonated over Beale between 200 and 20,000 feet, you can be assured that Robert Earl Burton’s prediction that the FoF, and/or Oregon House, would survive unhurt, is highly unlikely. But, who knows, the angels may interdict.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Just as an aside people, try to remember that this is Fellowship of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion

115. WhaleRider - March 15, 2019

Spot on, Bruce.

The reason the word “sleep” is framed perjoratively and corrupted by cults like the FOF is to promote sleep deprivation among followers, serving to lower a follower’s resistance to the cult leader’s sexual advances and disrupt critical thinking.

116. Golden Veil - March 15, 2019

107. WhaleRider – March 14, 2019

I cannot say that I could define what for me a “higher state” is; I don’t know if I’ve ever experienced one. I could tell you a little bit about my experience “being present” vs. “sleep” (assuming I am not imagining that.) I can tell you my own observations regarding how nature and art effect my state. There was one thing that was given to me in the Fellowship of Friends that I have verified – although it may be common to other philosophies and just plain old cognitive behavior (you would know more about that than me.) That, for example, when we go and live in a foreign country it helps keep us a little more awake. Fresh environments, the struggle to understand others speaking a foreign language or even just using hand gestures to communicate – seems to help keep one in the present. The other thing I have personally noticed and have often marveled about ~ but I am not talking about a “higher state” just about being a little less asleep, a little more awake ~ is that time seems to slow down ~ when one is more present. I actually noticed this before my time in the Fellowship of Friends (by the way, I left “The School” after only about a year) that when I would go on holiday for two weeks, out of my normal everyday environment and activities, it would feel much longer, like a month or two even ~ of living experience. And, a month or two could feel like a year!

When I am doing physical activities like hiking I sometimes feel the sensation of being in my body more, and looking at the trees, the dirt, the sky, the wildlife seems to enhance this feeling; I feel elevated when I am elevated (hiking in the mountains.) Sometimes I’ll find something surprising and take photographs of what I see ~ sometimes just mentally, sometimes photographs with a camera. It’s interesting, too, that when I experience a vibrant, strong emotional state I tend to remember it more; I verified this long before I heard that asserted the Fellowship of Friends.

You and I might differ a bit on the theory of how art is made. I have studied art quite a bit. and if we’re talking about the Abstract Expressionists of the New York School like Jackson Pollock or Philip Guston (both originally from Los Angeles) or artists of the Dada Movement like Marcel Duchamp or Roberto Matta, or the Surrealists like Salvador Dali or Remedios Varo (see The Alchemist or Useless Science c.1955 by her I have attached), or Modern artists like Van Gogh and Picasso, or Contemporary artists like Gerhard Richter (see the film Never Look Away (2019) if you can, based on his life) ~ I am with you all the way. But the earlier painters, the more “Classical” painters, I don’t think they used the unconscious, dreams, daydreaming, etc. as much as intention and hard work. I am not saying that Picasso or Salvador Dali, and many of the above mentioned artists didn’t work hard. But they were much more self-involved and inspired, I think, by the means that you mention, and at times, for an artist like Jackson Pollock, the unconscious and the process of painting, really led the way. Well, maybe Rembrandt…

117. Cult Survivor - March 15, 2019

115. Golden Veil

Can it be that we are more “present” in unusual circumstances for the same reason that we are more “present” when we hear a noise or smell smoke? Can it be that our survival mechanism (the good old King of Clubs) is more alert in unusual environments to ensure the survival of the species?

I do believe that there are higher states of consciousness, such as those experienced with certain types of drugs, but IMO we must make a difference between “consciousness” and “awareness”.

118. Cult Survivor - March 15, 2019

I googled “difference between consciousness and awareness” and — believe it or not — this video from Asaf Braverman came right at the top:

The voice is from Charles R0dk0ff, one of Asaf’s main supporters that stayed in the FOF when Asaf was expelled.

Burton seduces followers with his emotions, Braverman seduces them with his intellect — it takes a Gurdjieff to seduce them with both. Cult leaders need to have charisma, that’s why people talk about Burton and Gurdjieff but Braverman is virtually unknown (except in Google searches).

119. fofblogmoderator - March 15, 2019

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