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Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 156 October 21, 2016

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1. Mick - October 21, 2016

The following excerpts are from an Essay, The Impostors, by V.S. (Bhau) Kalchuri. I liked it, you may not, so here goes nothing:

The Father of creation is responsible for his children. Even if the children do not obey him, do not respect him, oppose him, reject him, still the Father loves them, benefits them, and is forgiving.
[The impostor] poses because he has selfish interests that only serve himself, and not the persons whom he supposedly is guiding. These impostors are the false gurus, false saints, the false holy men now to be found almost everywhere.
Today there are many such impostors in the world; they arise in both the east and the west. In the west, these impostors are like wolves who prey upon the lambs of the Father. In the east, they are like serpents, poisoning the hearts of the sincere. Ordinary people are far better than the hypocritical false men of God. Throughout the world, such impostors are collecting large numbers of followers, deceiving the simple-minded religious people and the spiritually naive. They are simple because they are deceived, and they are naive because they believe these fakes. … People are satisfied and content with the shows of attractive appearance, the howling of wolves before a moon, and enchanting movements of snakes.
The impostors are now taking advantage of people’s ignorance. Yet, they serve a purpose in the Avatar’s work. They serve as trash cans! Their businesses serve as depositories of human trash and filth. In them and their enterprises, people may deposit their trash and filth.
What is this trash and filth? It is nothing more than the human mind’s residue of unnatural sankaras [impressions]. There is a great danger in this, however. So long as one puts his faith in the impostor saint, the filth inside one goes into the trash can, which the impostor is. But, if a time comes when one doubts the authenticity of the so-called saint, not only does the filth that one threw, deposited into the trash can come right back unto oneself, but also some of the filth that other people deposited comes with one’s own. Suppose one has followed a so-called saint for a lengthy period of time. One day he realizes the man he is following is not really a saint, but a pretender posing as saintly, and has been deceiving him. The follower decides to leave the false saint. But he does not leave free of his own sanskaric trash, because he has also collected some of the residue of other’s unnatural impressions. After this, one is in a more unnatural sanskaric entanglement than when he began seeking spiritual guidance, which led him to that so-called saint.
Love does not need any demonstration or show. It is a treasure to be kept secret.

2. ion - October 21, 2016

I was not sure whether we were shifting from ‘initiates and sufferers’ to ‘perpetrators and administrators’ in the FOF.. Having read John Harmer’s recent post, it seems very clear to me that those who ‘do the Fellowship to others’ , take control and make the lives of others miserable ARE EXTREME NARCISSISTS. Please read below………….

How to Spot a Narcissist By Samuel López De Victoria, Ph.D.

How to Spot a Narcissist

At the core of extreme narcissism is egotistical preoccupation with self, personal preferences, aspirations, needs, success, and how he/she is perceived by others. Some amount of basic narcissism is healthy, of course, but this type of narcissism is better termed as responsibly taking care of oneself. It is what I would call “normal” or “healthy” narcissism.

Extreme narcissists tend to be persons who move towards eventually cutting others off and becoming emotionally isolated. There are all types of levels on that road to isolation. Narcissists come in all shapes, sizes, and degrees. I would like to address how a person becomes an extreme narcissist.

Narcissism, in lay terms, basically means that a person is totally absorbed in self. The extreme narcissist is the center of his own universe. To an extreme narcissist, people are things to be used. It usually starts with a significant emotional wound or a series of them culminating in a major trauma of separation/attachment. No matter how socially skilled an extreme narcissist is, he has a major attachment dysfunction. The extreme narcissist is frozen in childhood. He became emotionally stuck at the time of his major trauma of separation/attachment.


3. ion - October 21, 2016

I thought a little of the artists and artisans that were forced into servitude (by Burton and his disgusting taste in faux-arts), those who had studied to the depths of their being to reach a high level in their profession. Maybe poverty, lack of opportunity,or, again, being lured by the Narcissist Major to “Produce something lovely for Robert”. And, really, when it comes down to erect phalli on the ceiling of the Galleria “Something is up, dear!” or gilded putti placed poofily around the palace, what are we supposed to think? Here is one Victorian Evangelist (see post 1 by Mick)…..

“A great Idealist never can be egotistic. The whole of his power depends upon his losing sight and feeling of his own existence, and becoming a mere witness and mirror of truth, and scribe of visions, – always passive in sight, passive in utterance, lamenting continually that he cannot completely reflect nor clearly utter all he has seen, – not by any means a proud state for a man to be in. But the man who has no invention is always setting things in order, and putting the world to rights, and mending, and beautifying, and pluming himself on his doings, as supreme in all his ways.”

4. WhaleRider - October 21, 2016

Everyone, young and old will get duped a few times in life. It is unavoidable. Humans have weaknesses and those weaknesses are exploited by others. Youth, inexperience, ignorance, low self esteem, financial stress, physical weakness, and declining mental faculties are prime target qualities.

This is how the idiom, “actions speak louder than words” takes on a new meaning when dealing with sociopathic behavior.

Getting duped and taken advantage of a few times is the way we learn by our mistakes. If we don’t learn, we get get duped again and again.

So some people, like the elderly and mentally ill, need supervision by family or though therapeutic alliances with others or sometimes through conservatorship of their finances.

I think the realm of morality and conscience exists in how we respond to the inevitability of being duped or after we have been duped ourselves vis à vis other victims or susceptable people in our community. This does not include the distorting of the truth or modifying the conscience in order to pave the way for oneself to enter “paradise” in the afterlife at the expense of others.

burton was duped by horn. The FOF was his response. The suffering both have caused the MAJORITY of people in their wake is unconscionable.

Expect the same from braverman.

5. Just the Facts Ma'am - October 21, 2016

fofblogmoderator: A couple of days ago I posted to the blog on the last page a posting that had links in it and it did not show up. I tried removing the links and reposting. It still did not appear. Also, on second attempts of identical reposts got the message from wordpress to the effect: “You already said that,” indicating it was received. I have posted to the blog before, so, moderation should not apply. So, what’s up with that?

6. ton2u - October 21, 2016

JtFM –

I had a similar experience last week… several attempts to post but it never showed up… I think included links can hang things up sometimes… but there were no links in the post… after several tries I figured it wasn’t important anyway… and now as they say it’s “h20 under the bridge. ” wuddup flog moderator? and thank you again for your efforts here.

7. Ames Gilbert - October 21, 2016

It seems that some folks within the FoF who have doubts, are ‘on the fence’, or are even nearly ready to leave are visiting this blog. For you, these words by “Traveler”, written in 2009, may be of value. Posted here with permission:

Why did you leave the School?
What do you say when someone you knew inside the organization, and not even too well, calls you one day from another continent and asks you to please explain why did you decide to leave the School? A brave step actually, because such direct questions are not normally voiced by current members.

It’s not an easy answer, mostly because the question is phrased in a way I would not phrase it now. When you’re inside, you hear claims that people leave because they become “negative” about the money or sex or some other external issue, and because of such a trifle, they fail to look beyond to a “higher aim” that the organization is ostensibly serving.

Not to diminish the sexual manipulations and misuse of funds: they are no trifles. But they have been rationalized before and can always be rationalized again, in the name of the cause. That is what keeps people in: as long as they believe in the essential goodness of the cause of an “esoteric school”, any irregularities can be explained away and swept under the carpet, a carpet that I think would be several inches off the floor by now, after 37 years of the FoF.

But current members say external issues are never the real reason: it’s that people “lose the work”. Well, what can I say – they are right. If by “work” they mean perpetual self-monitoring for manifestations of thoughts and actions not in line with RB’s wishes; repetition of a magical formula that is to assist me in reaching the ever elusive Divine Presence, with a view to create an astral identity that will survive physical death – then yes, I have thoroughly lost any interest in the “work”. Whether you view that as a tragic failure or not depends on which side of the fence you are looking from.

I say I never decided to leave because leaving eventually happened just as naturally as opening my eyes after waking up in the morning.

It’s not “I left when I saw that RB was wrong,” or “I left when I saw that GH was wrong.” Not even “I left when I saw that PDO and GIG were wrong.” That all pales in light of the realization that I personally had been spectacularly, mind–bogglingly, fabulously WRONG.

I was wrong to take on faith so many statements of belief just because they sounded good and I wanted them to be true.

I was wrong to feel special.

I was wrong to believe in a hierarchy of more and less enlightened individuals.

I was wrong to assume that others can accurately tell me what I am thinking, feeling or what state I am in.

I was wrong to think that just because some aspects of the teaching make sense, all of it should make sense, even if I don’t yet understand it.

I was wrong to grasp at the slightest bit of teaching that seemed reasonable while dismissing massive evidence to the contrary.

I was wrong to want to be told what to do.

I was wrong to suppress my own dissenting questions because of peer pressure.

I was wrong to want to get others to express support for our beliefs.

I was wrong to make myself feel guilty for being non-compliant.

I was wrong to want to make others feel guilty for being non-compliant.

I was wrong to continue supporting what I no longer believed in.

I was wrong to value security and familiarity over my conscience.

I was wrong to feel that all this was normal.

I was wrong to feel that I had no choice.

I was wrong to think that I would assure any real friendships just by belonging to an organization together.

And above all, I was wrong to not trust myself and my own better judgment.

I left because that period of my life was irrevocably over.

But the really interesting question for me right now is not “Why did you leave?”
Much more fascinating and perplexing is “Why did I stay so long?”

8. fofblogmoderator - October 22, 2016

re; #5 & 6, I don’t know where you posts went. When a post is “flagged” I get an email and in both your cases I did not. I just checked the “pending” emails (those that are waiting approval) and neither of your posts were there. I’m not sure what happened.

9. ton2u - October 22, 2016

flogmoderator @ 8 maybe there was a problem on this end… whatever thanks again for your efforts.

The “Traveler” re-post @ 7 illustrates an “awakening” vis a’ vis the cult trap, an ‘awakening’ which requires first recognizing errors in your thinking and judgement AND a willingness to acknowledge / accept the errors as for what they are… in the old parlance – not to “buffer.”

From there the only sensible thing to do is to engage in actions to attempt correction of mistakes.

Realizing and admitting to your errors is a lesson in humility… then maybe forgiving yourself for being all too “human” can begin…. while you’re at it you can thank your “lucky stars” that you were able to detect and begin to correct your mistakes… otherwise…

Something I quoted from the previous page:

“To learn we must be free to err, to make mistakes, for in correcting our mistakes we advance the process of learning in a way unique to our species. we evolve precisely because of (our) extraordinary scope of error…. We evolve not iust by learning, as all sentient creatures do, but especially by learning from our mistakes. The exceptionally wide latitude for error typifies human singularity, the ennoia (intentionality) inherent to our species. But if we allow our mistakes to go undetected and uncorrected, we demonstrate the singularity of our species in a destructive way, a deviant way.”

10. Just the Facts Ma'am - October 22, 2016


“A Letter about Robert Burton

Dear Mr. Rovner,

I found your website, Gurdjieff Club, quite interesting.

I noted with interest your comments about the People of Gurdjieff’s Influence where you talk about Robert Earl Burton who founded the fellowship of friends. You also say that Burton “spent eighteen mo[n]ths in a Gurdjieff group of the Fourth Way led by the spiritual teacher Alexander Francis Horn.”

I feel like you are doing a great disservice to anyone who reads your website without stating the whole truth of these matters.

Robert Earl Burton’s Fellowship of Friends was and is a cult that has harmed many people.

Please look at the following sources:

Personally, I was a victim of Alexander Francis Horn who was NOT a spiritual teacher and who had no connection to Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.

Alex Horn was a psychopath, a narcissist, a manipulator, a rapist and a black magician. Yes, he taught Burton and in that way further perpetrated his evil.

Please look at the following sources about Alex Horn and his groups:

Please, if you are interested in the truth, tell the whole story about these people.

Not all of Gurdjieff’s followers were unscrupulous but some of them were and people should know about this.

Thank you for considering the above.

Best wishes”

11. Golden Veil - October 22, 2016

The video at the bottom of this post, found on the Greater Fellowship, brought me to find out more about Daniel Shaw, a psychoanalytically trained psychotherapist.

These are excerpts from a review of his most recent book. * From: Daniel E. Greenberg Ph.D. (2016) A review of Traumatic Narcissism: Relational Systems of Subjugation, book by Daniel Shaw

* “1) Those drawn into these cults tend to have histories of traumatized subjectivity; 2) the interaction between cult leader and followers recreates the undermining of subjectivity that is the core of the relational system of the traumatizing narcissist; and 3) the cult leader is always a traumatizing narcissist.”

* “Cult leaders are … grandiose, overinflated narcissists who seek hegemony for their subjectivity by weakening and suppressing the subjectivity of others.”

* “Shaw draws on his own past painful experience as a member of an
abusive religious cult to describe the ways in which the cult’s traumatic
narcissistic leader imposed his will on the cult’s members. The abuses
Shaw recounts are horrific and include sexual assault and rape, financial and emotional exploitation, scapegoating, social isolation, shaming, banishment and threats, intimidation, and virtual enslavement.”

* (read the entire review – pdf here: http://danielshawlcsw.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/ContempPsyAreview.pdf

There is a poignant observation, eloquently and markedly stated by a a woman who appears to be a long-time former member, at the close of the video. She says, “There is something we shared, and I don’t know how to explain it. … Sometimes I think, Why didn’t we question things; we’re intelligent. And, that will always haunt me”


12. Mind Out of Rhyme - October 22, 2016

If you are a member of the Fellowship of Friends, a follower of the teachings of Bob, here is a dose of reality: You do not possess a superior view of the nature of existence like you believe you do and yet there is no one in the world able to convince you otherwise because you have been made to feel irrationally self-certain. Your self-certainty is delusional, just like Bob’s self-certainty is delusional.

When you begin to understand this only then will you begin to “wake up”. Do not believe in your self-certainty.

13. ion - October 22, 2016

To be nervous, while using that phrase BEING.

Well, we all know the phrase “Higher level of being” as it refers to one’s involvement in the Fellowship of Friends…..

Being able to ‘kick FOF ass’ for Robert.
Being able to have OUTRAGEOUS SEX with Robert.
Being able to clean the house for Robert.
Being able buy expensive wines for Robert.
Being able to pay for trinkets/baubles for Robert.
Being able to open a new European center for Robert (power and money).
Being able to give ‘intellectually smart ass ‘angles’ at meetings (that will WOW the timid and naive

We could go on, but I think we all know what is at the center of the drama – Robert and his wiles and wants.

What would simply being and holding some sort of constancy in LIFE as most of us posters find ourselves?

1 Corinthians 13

English Standard Version (ESV)

The Way of Love

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[b] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

This is not bible-bashing, but I love this passage for what it says, without mentioning God, Jesus or Heaven and Hell.


14. WhaleRider - October 22, 2016

@Mind Out of Rhyme

“Do not believe in your self-certainty.”

While I agree that cult followers would be better off with a healthy dose of skepticism about burton’s pathological “self-certainty” aka grandiosity coupled with his delusions about the afterlife, I disagree that a cult follower would be better served by mistrusting themselves on any level.

As Shaw points out in the above quote, cults have a nasty habit of undermining follower’s subjectivity, rendering them insecure and dependent upon the cult and cult leader.

In fact, a good argument can be made that it is a deep seated insecurity and fear of abandonment that motivates a cult follower to remain a member for long periods of time, adhering to a doctrine of words and rituals despite the bizarre and abusive behavior of the cult leader.

In the FOF cult, followers are instructed to split themselves into “higher self/lower self”, which causes them to mistrust themselves, particularly the “gut feeling”…which as I posted last page, is exactly the likely reaction a person might have encountering an interspecies predator…like the creepy clown burton or his inner circle of sycophants. It can take quite a bit of personal growth to heal that spilt.

Speaking for myself, I left not only because of being sexually exploited by the creepy clown, but that I was quite certain that both my girlfriend and I would be fine without the cult.

I can honestly say that I never doubted my choice to leave for even a nanosecond.

15. Mind Out of Rhyme - October 22, 2016

The first illusion self-awareness dissipates is self-certainty. Accurately gauge the extent of your self-awareness by encountering and dissipating the many battlements of self-certainty that stand guard over the delusion that you know who you are, what you are doing and why. The ultimate attribute of self-awareness is to understand that nothing is certain, especially something as artificial as your own opinion of yourself. When you know yourself then you know nothing, because you are nothing just like everyone else. To follow another’s heedless path of self-certainty as a possible means of finding your own self-certainty leads only to certain madness.

You are self-generated noise echoing around a sealed bone-chamber into which no light ever enters. Your knowledge is merely a measurement of the social consensus that controls your opinions.

16. Golden Veil - October 22, 2016

14. WhaleRider – October 22, 2016

Yes, You got the point. The cult leader who is a “traumatizing narcissist” subjugates followers to their will and belief system. If the follower does not follow this relationship pattern, the leader shames or isolates them. Robert Burton does this very thing. If a Fellowship of Friends member doesn’t fit his ideal in certain ways – or questions his authority, becomes disabled, or inconveniently suffers from certain age related illnesses, Robert Burton shames them by either temporary exclusion and/or permanent expulsion.

“The follower actively seeks to negate any aspect of his own subjectivity which the leader might disapprove of. To most outside observers, the leader’s aims are clearly nothing more than self-aggrandizement. Insiders, however, in spite of little or no evidence on which to base their assertions, cling stubbornly to the belief that the leader is actually pursuing lofty and noble aims. Asked to do anything to enrich the leader, including, in the case of some notorious groups, prostituting themselves, followers obey and find a way to believe that whatever they do is righteous. By remaining loyal to the leader, the followers persuade themselves that their own existence is given meaning and validity by their support of the leader’s mission.”

The above quote is from an article by Daniel Shaw, “The Relational System of the Traumatizing Narcissist”, published in International Journal of Cultic Studies, Vol. 5, 2014, 4-11. Read it here:


Shaw believes that this relationship dynamic is intergenerational. He believes that a “traumatizing narcissist” was often traumatized by a narcissist – as a child.

Shaw also writes, ” Leaders do not have to be grateful for anything they are given or for anything they take from followers—when taking, they are understood to actually be giving.”

There is too, those admonitions Robert Burton is known to have used on his victims of Teacher – Student sexual abuse; to pressure members to perform sex acts which are against their nature, “The Gods want you to do this for me.” “This will increase your Being.”

17. Mind Out of Rhyme - October 22, 2016

“The cult leader who is a “traumatizing narcissist” subjugates followers to their will and belief system.”

There would be no leader in the first place if there were not so many followers eagerly lining up to become traumatized.

Burton would simply be a homeless person wandering around muttering to himself, at best working in a daycare center, if thousands of defective people did not go out of their way to listen to him and then agree to give him money and other “goods” in exchange for his “wisdom”. You don’t get powerful crazy people without the agreement and active support of many weak-minded crazy people.

18. Golden Veil - October 23, 2016

17. Mind Out of Rhyme – October 22, 2016

Regarding “active support of many weak-minded crazy people.” ~ Mind Out of Rhyme, are you speaking from your own personal experience? Are you one of the Fellowship of Friends members, or one of the former members, whom you describe as, “defective people”?

I am wondering because that is an unusual way to describe oneself…

19. ion - October 23, 2016

Whilst having defended the artists/artisans who were used/abused by Burton for Purposes of Narcissism, you may like to know I am doing lengthy research on book production and subscribe to many e-publishing sites. There is this from Medium Daily Digest. I think the secret to both ‘offering posts’ to the FOF/Discussion site and ‘being affected’ by other bloggers is FREE FLOW OF OPEN MINDS – to need to be wrong, sometimes and never to be ABSOLUTELY CORRECT to the point of obnoxious conservatism of subject.

Real Artists Do Have Day Jobs
author: Sara Benincasa

“For readers of Lena Dunham, Mindy Kaling, and #Girlboss, a hilarious—yet heartfelt—guide to growing up and taking your place in the world by the popular comedian and author of the highly praised Agorafabulous!

While the practical aspects of new adulthood can be nerve-wracking—dating, job-hunting, money-managing—the most important task of all is figuring out who you are and where you fit in the world. Author and comedian Sara Benincasa, now in her mid-thirties, had an absolutely harrowing early twenties and now, on the other side, she has a LOT of hard-earned wisdom and common sense to share.

Real Artists Have Day Jobs includes 52 witty, provocative essays on how to live like a real adult—especially for those who have chosen a slightly more offbeat path to get there. Chock full of information and advice, Sara’s warm, smart, empathetic, and quirky voice is relatable to everyone from twenty-somethings and recent college grads to anyone a bit older who’s still trying to figure things out. While Sara doesn’t have all of life’s answers, this indispensable book has more than its share!

Essays include:

How to Read a Book
Real Artists Have Day Jobs
The Power of Being a Dork
Put Your Clutter in Purgatory
Ask for Exactly What You Want
Elect Your Own Executive Board”

20. ion - October 23, 2016

A snip out of Wikipedia…..

Repetition compulsion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

“Repetition compulsion is a psychological phenomenon in which a person repeats a traumatic event or its circumstances over and over again. This includes reenacting the event or putting oneself in situations where the event is likely to happen again. This “re-living” can also take the form of dreams in which memories and feelings of what happened are repeated, and even hallucination.

The term can also be used to cover the repetition of behavior or life patterns more broadly: a “key component in Freud’s understanding of mental life, ‘repetition compulsion’…describes the pattern whereby people endlessly repeat patterns of behavior which were difficult or distressing in earlier life.”

21. linda - October 23, 2016

7. Ames. bravely said ….. I agree people seem to sitting on the fence lately. If it helps, I was one who felt guilty for years after leaving, especially for not listening to friends who tried to keep me in. And, although it was 30 yrs later, we did finally meet again – we did heal old wounds – and we strengthened our friendship and understanding of our experiences. The world is a far more beautiful and real outside.

22. Arthur Brooks - October 24, 2016

“When the student is ready, the teacher arrives”. Buddhist proverb I must have not been totally sincere in my readiness because Robert Burton appeared.

23. Wouldnt You Like To Know - October 24, 2016

From FaceBook:

Asaf Braverman: 20 years in the Fellowship of Friends.
You all know I did my best to make it better.
23Oct16 at 11:35am

Asaf Braverman: My efforts to reach out with beperiod.com were deemed invalid and I was forced to chose the one or the other. So I chose beperiod…
23Oct16 at 12:10pm

Asaf Braverman: I was released from my previous school. We will continue meeting on beperiod. It is a farewell for some and hopefully 20 more years of journeying together for others.
23Oct16 at ~3:12pm

24. brucelevy - October 25, 2016


25. Wondering Who's Watching - October 25, 2016

Asaf Braverman: good riddance!
He gets the fate he deserves.

Thus conscience does make cowards of us all

“Page 137/181. Wondering Who’s Watching – July 27, 2013

If you want to get acquainted with Asaf Braverman, and the Asaf Braverman type person the Fellowship of Friends fosters, read this:

From: Res Ipsa Loquitur
Post #142 unoanimo writes
on 01 Aug 2007 at 7:34 am
“Fraud, Fraudulent Misrepresentation, Wrongful Discharge. . .

Fellowship of Friends indeed.
Banishes its own when they become an unpleasant impression. . .

This ‘wrongful discharge’ relates to the deeper picture of such lines as “Banishes its own when they become an unpleasant impression.”

For instance ~

Take the S. Milton situation; here’s a guy who has a legally classified ‘eye disease’, had been working outside for a large part of the day, went to one of Robert Burton’s lunches the same day, was facing the hot sun and had the need to close his eyes from time to time in order to rest them from the strain of looking with bright sunlight in his face…

Later, he was asked to leave the Fellowship of Friends for ‘sleeping’ or ‘dozing off’…

I believe you can thank Asaf or some ‘boy’ for that hawk-eyed, un-conscience-able perception of S. Milton…

Who brought it to Robert Burton’s ‘attention’ is hearsay, yet, the fact of his dismissal on these grounds is not… stay tuned for the REST OF THE STORY; on a train coming to your neighborhood soon.

And, no, Steven D., your part won’t be left out of this story…stay tuned for a conscience near you.”

Matthew [KJV] 6:22-24: ‘. . . if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.’

Asaf and Robert Burton were leading an afternoon outdoor tea/meeting at Steven D.’s residence, in Oregon House. As Fellowship of Friends members know, having left-eye eye contact with Robert Burton during these events is important; so wearing sunglasses on a bright sunny summer afternoon is not really an option – even for a person who is legally blind with an eye disease. After this meeting, S. Milton was called by Linda T., the then president of Fellowship of Friends, who related this: After the meeting Asaf told Robert that S. Milton was ‘closing his eyes too much during the meeting.’ [And, thereby, disrespecting Robert.] Robert replied, ‘Have Linda T. call S. Milton for a two month leave-of-absence.’

Linda T. called S. Milton to convey the above and that: S. Milton ‘was serving the wrong master.’ That is, not serving Robert as Robert saw fit. S. Milton was given a leave-of-absence, told to leave Oregon House in 48 hours, and made homeless. S. Milton was instructed that they were to have no contact with any Fellowship of Friends members, except for Linda T., for two months. S. Milton was legally blind, could not drive, had no transportation available and lived in a very rural located home that had only Fellowship of Friends members living there – and these facts were things they all were aware of.

S. Milton was a member of Fellowship of Friends for 30 years and served the Fellowship of Friends, and Robert Burton, above and beyond the call of duty.

Later, after the leave-of-absence, S. Milton was compelled to sell property they owned in Oregon House, if they wanted to continue being a Fellowship of Friends member, and, to basically, effectively, spend the proceeds on going to meetings with Robert Burton.

This was not the first example of abusing the blind (or crippled) in Fellowship of Friends. About 10 years earlier, similar, as to the above, happened to G. A. So, it is a pattern that probably continues.

Definitely ‘un-conscience-able’ behaviour.”

“To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, ’tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there’s the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.”

26. outoftime761 - October 25, 2016

Asaf Braverman: 20 years in the Fellowship of Friends.
You all know I did my best to make it better.
* You did your best to make it better for yourself.

My efforts to reach out with beperiod.com were deemed invalid and I was forced to chose the one or the other. So I chose beperiod…

I was released from my previous school. We will continue meeting on beperiod. It is a farewell for some and hopefully 20 more years of journeying together for others.
* * *

You can bet there’s no epiphany here for the father of the slithering sequence. More likely a dollar sign drop out–beware beperiod…

27. WhaleRider - October 25, 2016

Congratulations, Asaf, if you ever read this. You made the right move.

As we all know, burton will now say to everyone in the FOF, all your so-called friends, that you are not as conscious as you believe you are.

Probably a few people will say that here, too.

I hope you’re ok with that.

But don’t listen to them. You are a man number 6 now. I said so.

Personally though, I’ve found it to be a big relief to treat others as equals…as I would want them to treat me.

But given that you have your online endeavor as your parachute, it may not seem to you like it was a mistake to join up and spend 20 YEARS in a cult…yet.

Right now, it seems like all part of your bigger plan…to what end, I wonder? A Nobel Prize?

Good luck advertising your burton-horn pedigree, which has no direct lineage to anyone, and certainly has left behind a huge swath of fuck-ups like us, right?

Feel free to reality test any of your esoteric ideas here, bro. I’m sure it would be educational for all.

28. Mind Out of Rhyme - October 25, 2016

Asaf Braverman left the Fellowship of Friends. How about a little support for the guy? So he runs a new age pay to play club? $50 a month? It’s nothing. I personally know of people making 250k a year teaching others how to be an effective “life coach” scammer.

Asaf’s money making teaching, which I’m sure he believes in for the most part, is nothing compared to what is going on out there.

29. ion - October 25, 2016

Twists and turns, but where is Braverman? Where is the Star of David. This is neutral – not my opinion, so I will ‘not cover old ground’. It provokes questions we need to ask OF BRAVERMAN AS A NEW CULT LEADER (paragraph by ion)….

Cults – The Ugly Truth

(Posts Tagged cults)

Anti-Cult Law in Israel — Reason for Optimism?

Posted by ariadnatheo in Uncategorized on 03/13/2016

“Ariadna — A bill proposing to outlaw “cults” that has been presented in the Knesset defines a “cult” in a way that leaves room for hope. Perhaps I am an unreconstructed optimist who likes to believe that the Jews are capable of reaching self-awareness even if, as late bloomers, it would have taken them a few thousand years to finally attain it. First they will investigate “new age” cults, next the Lubavitchers will come under suspicion and before you know it, not only the Holocaust cult but — gasp! — Judaism itself will be revealed to them as a full-blown cult, in fact the Mother of All Cults.

Jewish minds have numbered quite a few very capable mathematicians. It was, after all, a Jew — Mandelbrot, who formulated the concept of fractals:

“A fractal is a natural phenomenon or a mathematical set that exhibits a repeating pattern that displays at every scale. It is also known as expanding symmetry or evolving symmetry. If the replication is exactly the same at every scale, it is called a self-similar pattern.”

A snowflake is a fractal: each of its arms is a smaller snowflake whose every arm is a snow flake, whose every arm…. and so on ad infinitum. Judaism is a fractal: a cult whose every arm sprouts another noxious cult, like the Golden Calf or the Holocaust. Jewish cult leaders like Marx, Horkheimer, Adorno, Freud, Ayn Rand, among others, have suborned millions into communism, cultural marxism, “Libido Rules” and “Greed Is Virtue” cults. The Holocaust cult, officiated by its Judaic shamans (Elie Wiesel, Wiesenthal, the ADL pack), demands that all mankind worship its “saints” (the “6 Million,” Ann Frank), and its relics (the “death camps,” the soap bars, the shrunken heads), and its House of Horrors Carnival barkers (Spielberg) urge us all to buy a ticket (a very expensive ticket) to Jew worship.

Just think how perfect it would be (even aesthetically pleasing as a symmetry that closes the circle) if in a last act of Jewishness, the Jews would announce that they are the saviors of mankind who discovered the cure for mankind’s rot, which is the eradication of Judaism. (important paragraph IMHO poster ion)

I am hopeful.”

I think the purpose is to think hard, right now, as Braverman launches ‘something toxic’, and believe me, that is his intent – he is fresh enough blood to destabilize ‘la creation de Burton’…as Burton and his mind tumble toward death, Braverman has the experience of narcissistic psychopathy to look decades ahead in his leadership and management process to build something solid – something sordid (paragraph by ion).

30. Ames Gilbert - October 25, 2016

It appears that a couple of days ago, Asaf Braverman was presented with a choice: take down his beperiod.com websites, or leave the ‘school’. Since there was no way, IMO, that the honchos that run the Fellowship of Friends did not already know about this venture (running at least from as early 2012), it follows that this same information was presented to Burton in a new way, one that alarmed him enough to present the ultimatum. That is, someone with an agenda added some fresh slant to the existing information, which in turn speaks to some internal political dynamics (maybe even a pre–emptive strike in a struggle for power?)

Whatever, Asaf made his choice (according to his Facebook page) and went with his online ‘school’. He also claims that he ‘you all know I did my best to make it better’, presumably referring to the situation within the FoF. H’mm.

So let’s talk about this online ‘school’.
It is led by someone who likely had sex with Burton during his first formative years in the organization. Whatever the reason, this was normalized and even idealized for himself and for the other followers. Later, he was anointed by Burton, named a future ‘conscious being’, and this too became normalized. Borrowing Burton’s spiritual authority and then starting to amass his own as his future ‘consciousness’ was transformed to ‘fact’ in the minds of the other followers, he led meetings, raised funds, travelled to various centers around the world, taught what he had learned from Burton, added material and interpretations, invented new facets of Burton’s religion with Burton’s approval. Over a period of twenty years, he immersed himself as thoroughly in Burton’s fantasy as is possible. He was still at the ‘pinnacle of spiritual authority’ (head of the Council) as recently as April 2016.
We are told that in the last few months he seemed to gradually withdraw from these roles. Certainly he was busy building up his websites and recruiting for his online ‘school’, and still acknowledged his connection to Burton and the Fellowship. And now he claims he was all the while doing his ‘best to make it better’.

Interestingly enough there is a recent study in Nature on the accumulative effect of lying, published a couple of days ago:
One finding of this research is that lying desensitizes the amygdala, and repeated lying makes less and less sensitive; small lies lead to bigger lies. One assumes that there is a strong possibility this also applies to lying to oneself…
Twenty years of lying to oneself and others, about the truth of one’s situation, about ‘consciousness’, about one’s utterly corrupt ‘teacher’, about subservience, about service to humanity (founding a ‘future civilization’, etc). Twenty years of spreading delusions, of deluding oneself, of literally reprogramming ones thoughts to conform with the official story, the local trance state. Twenty years of not just feeling special and superior to ‘life’, a supposed heir to the best of civilization, but an appointed superior amongst superiors, consorting and conferring with the elite, the cream of the chosen—those selected by angels of immense powers to inherit the earth. Not only that, but the possessor of special knowledge, transmitted by one who has succeeded in transcending time and space and who has ‘become immortal’. Anointed by ‘the only one who knows’, destined to achieve ‘immortality’ oneself.

Suddenly one can cast off two decades of conditioning and catering to basic weaknesses, and instantly change to being able to objectively see oneself and the world in some meaningful way—able to teach others?

I don’t think so.

Hey, I was just a lowly cog in the machine, whose only use to the organization was to contribute time, labor and money. I had no authority and no overt influence (though of course, all these contributions, including the appearance of ‘good student’ and acceptance of clear criminality in the name of something higher, reinforced my delusions and influenced some of the other followers). When I left, I attended workshops organized by those with more wisdom to try to clear out some of the more obvious shit. I set (and kept) the aim of not discussing or writing about the FoF and not using 4th way terms insofar as it was possible for ten years. But the previous sixteen years of willing servitude and washing my own brain had consequences, and many persist to this day. And my basic nature, gullibility and naïveté and willingness to abdicate responsibility, is obviously permanent.
How much more difficult it would be for Asaf Braverman’s psyche to get cleaned up, to become a fairly normal human being again! Likely years at the very least, and more probably decades! If Braverman persists in ‘teaching’ a corrupt form of a corrupted form of a corrupt form of the so–called Fourth Way, based on incomplete theories derived from mere “Fragments of an Unknown Teaching”, he is still setting himself up as someone special, someone who has something worth exchanging for the time and money of naïve seekers, feeding his vanity. He certainly cannot get from ‘here’ to ‘there’ without knowing where ‘here’ is—acknowledging the truth of his present situation as best he can. Just as ‘Traveler’ (#7, above) and the majority of those who ‘lost the school’ had to, one way or another.

Asaf, maybe you will read this message:
Burton was right, but for the wrong reasons—as usual. He directed you to choose because he can’t abide any competition or tendency to individuation, not because he had your best interests at heart. But, for your own sake and those who you may yet influence, stop any attempts to ‘teach’ anyone anything right now. Close down the websites (leave an apology up for a couple of years, though!), and try to become, as best you can, just an ordinary human being. Love your wife, raise your children, earn a living through honest means, see the value in all those ‘life’ people mostly trying to do their best, and learn from them. Give up pretensions to some theoretical glorious ‘after–life’, enjoy yourself, make the most of this life you have been miraculously gifted—now, and now, and now.

31. Bares Reposting - October 26, 2016

fofblog page 21,
27 Sep 2007 at 8:33 pm
Bares Reposting said:

Schools are for those who need them
and especially for those
that know that they need them.
Schools are for broken machines.
Once you’re fixed, you no longer need them.
That’s when it’s time to leave them.
Staying any longer will return one
to a broken machine state endlessly;
like eternal recurrence. Get it?
At what point does intentional suffering
become unnecessary suffering, hmmm?
Staying admits that you are incomplete,
broken and/or needing to learn
something that you already are.
The form is not that substance in you
that wishes to awaken. REB will
do everything in his power to take
that away from you until you recognize
its worth and stop the crime. Get it?

32. ion - October 27, 2016

I am not sure whether post 31 by Bares Reposting was deliberately neutral, or meant to be a warning, or maybe both are true.

The seeming ‘thread’ which runs through most post/pages are of the dangers of cults – I was certainly a mixed-up individual on leaving the FOF. and it took time to realize there were real individuals outside the cult.

I think with Braverman it was 20 years ‘sucking ass’ then attempting to build some other sort of cult to have others ‘sucking his ass’

Why is he getting congratulated for what has happened?

33. Ill Never Tell - October 27, 2016

Speaking of ‘sucking ass,’ here is picture of ass kissing:

34. Bares Reposting - October 28, 2016

While juicy accusations of sexual misconduct fly in the political arenas this year of U.S. Presidential election, it is perhaps good to reveal and review what has happened here in Oregon House, at the heart of the Fellowship of Friends, in one particular story.

Copied below is a post to the FoF blog that is now about ten years old. Since it is now deleted and cannot be linked to, in reproducing it here, names have been altered so that they can be read and interpreted but not scanned by search devices. You can go to page 10 of the blog to see comments associated to this post.

FoFblog page 10/122, now deleted:
“K!r@n Says:
May 25th, 2007 at 11:50 am

Well it seems to me that the gods really intend to use wolfs in sheep’s clothing like Hava Nagillah #10/77 or Rumours & Lies #10/97 or RSVP #10/98 to sink their own boat by trying to get to the “real facts”. It would be so revealing if we could put faces to these stupidities but they have to hide behind changing handles. Me for example triggered their nagging to post the e-mail below that I originally only had intended and send to a few people in the Fellowship of Friends.

I am prepared to back these statements up in court if they have the courage/stupidity to bring it to such an open forum, especially now having this material of, by now over 3 thousand pages on this Blog, to back it up. Also the person who told me about @br@h@m G0ldm@n’s mission to me in Egypt is ready to back it up in person. [That mission was to get control of K!r@n’s estate considering his coma and near terminal condition.]

This is my first and last response on this level as I know it will not change much as those “who have ears to hear” have already heard enough and the others are not destined to hear. And the main message I want to give here: “I am not negative about Robert Burton or the Fellowship of Friends. Why ? Because I am more aware then ever that “It is a play” and as one can see most people here on this Blog have completely lost this central idea of the 4th Way.

“The work of my fellow Heroes”
[Another version of same was titled:
The dark side of the fellowship – Sex]

Maybe two years ago I went with C@ss@ndr@ to the local health service for a HIV test and by coincidence it turned out that the person who was doing this test was P!l@r 3@rl and then, despite having been a member of the Fellowship of Friends for almost 20 years, came for me my first insight into the relationship of the FOF to Sex

While we were there, P!l@r told us that Oregon House is a red spot on the public health map because of the over proportion of HIV infected people there, which are of course students. I was shocked about this revelation and asked “Why this was not made known in the fellowship, that students can be more careful?”. She told us that she had suggested this to L!nd@ Tnl!ss0 [then president of FoF], but that she had refused to do that.

On the other hand however she told us that R0v3n@ T@yl0r had contacted her to give her the names of the HIV infected students that Robert Burton can be protected and not have sex with the wrong people. P!l@r had refused this because of the confidentiality she had to keep.

The last one who died in the fellowship of AIDS was R3n@t0 and hopefully his former wife T!n@ Bnrt0n did a HIV test since then.

However now it is the same P!l@r together with many others like F. who is spreading the gossip that C@ss@ndr@ and I had has sex with many, this is why I want to give some relativity to this subject.

Yes, we both liked sex and we were always open and honest about it, in fact we had never sex with anyone outside our marriage alone and this in 20 years. One of the last fellowship encounters we had was a bit over a year ago with B3nj@m!n Ynd!n who had seen our add on a swinger website and then contacted us. He arranged that we had sex with him and P@nl@ who was then the girlfriend of Asaf Braverman.

I guess she told him about it and that is why he was giving me such a hard time. But also she was asked to leave the school after she had organized to have a sex orgy with D0r!@n and M!h@!l, L!z3t and C@rm!n@ in Robert Burton’s bedroom while he was traveling.

I was relatively unaware of the intensity of Robert Burton’s sex life until the last 12 month probably because I had such a fulfilling sex life myself together with C@ss@ndr@ that this served as a natural protection. However now I am get details from every side, how he had sex with half of the male fellowship population, how M!h@!l, makes a schedule with half hour slots for everyone, how they have to view porno movies and masturbate before to get ready, how the whole orgy is accompanied with harp music and and and.

I guess I do not have to elaborate how much I enjoy sex myself and how much of it I have, however I am horrified to which degree sex has become entangled with lower impulses like hiding, shame, fear in the fellowship And of course particularly Robert Burton uses to offer monetary or other benefits to get people into bed.

Here again I do not perceive that Robert Burton is doing this from his mechanics or even lower from identifications that he cannot control, but that he is a true channel for the kind of play the gods want to create. It is up to each one of us, to see that Robert Burton should not be imitated in each detail of his conduct and that it all is to mature our sense of discrimination .

The soul who is the most surprised by all this and being most separated from Robert Burton is probably the soul that is fated to inhabit and endure the role of Robert Burton himself. Mainly because it cannot buffer, like most of us, by looking up to Robert Burton and excusing his behaviors in one of the inventive ways, many students do.

Only if one develops the courage to see things as they are and not give them meaning they do not contain, we can be more objective also to our own action. For example many of the girls who gathered around me after my return from Egypt were believing they did this to help me and not because they were sexually attracted. Or for example K. had to call Asaf to find out about my tasks at this point in regards to sex “Just to protect me from myself and that I would not loose the school” or S. alerting Asaf that she was having indications that “I was seeing prostitutes outside the fellowship”.

This kind of misconceived “help” let Asaf to order his lover Y0@d R0wn3r and R0v3n@ T@yl0r to investigate my sex-life only four month after I had returned from Egypt. But divine coincidence wanted it that only a week before R0v3n@ T@yl0r had invited me for the first time in twenty years for a dinner and during this event she made unmistakable indications that she wanted to have sex with me. As I told her that at this moment I was rather up to some nurturing hugging and caressing, she told me that in 20 years having S. D. as a lover she had not been able once to lie next to him and not having sex.

After the same person, R0v3n@, a week later, was asked by Asaf to investigate my sex life she did not see a contradiction in that and dutifully called all women that had been seen in public together with me or which M@r!0 F@nt0n! had told her he had seen at my house. Yes the same M@r!0 for whom I had been the “best man” at his wedding 2 month earlier and who’s leave of absence because of breaking a sex-related task I had turned, three month earlier, into a financial fine though my intervention, now had seen no contradiction telling R0v3n@ who was visiting me at my house, where he was also staying.

This was simply too much for my nervous system four month after coming out of Coma and I put this in a letter to Robert Burton, my first letter to Robert Burton in twenty years in which I was asking for his intervention. I just stated the facts as I was seeing them and also mentioned that I did not find it acceptable that a student has to convince me to have sex because “she was doing this already for the last 2o years”. Shortly after that Robert Burton had W@yn3 M0tt call me and let me know that he considered this letter “vulgar” and that because of this he wants to give me a “medical leave of absence” for 3-6 month. This was beginning of April.

Again I do not see this as a mistake of Robert Burton, but simply as the plan of the gods to protect me from the assault of female students and to remove me from being exposed to all the gossip and immature emotional attention at that time. But mainly as a way to wake me up and also a gentle preparation for my release from the school six month later.

By coincidence I am writing this in Brazil, which maybe is the culture that has the most natural relationship to sex which is not so much infected by christian misconception, which is still the guide for the “Fellowship of Friends”.

The example of the students mentioned here, particularly R0v3n@ T@yl0r and M@r!0 makes clear that the sense of discrimination between what comes from the gods and the way we are supposed to act on is not developed in many students and this will never change as the majority is always determined to remain where they are…. But maybe you can make a difference.


Life is beautiful “Out there” and I will be on a 4 weeks seminar trip to Europe from next week and I can only tell you that there is a world outside “Oregon House” and the “Fellowship of Friends” (What a contradiction in name) that is waiting for you to experience it:”

35. ion - October 28, 2016

34 Bares Reposting, post regarding…..

As it all becomes clear, it looks like sex, sex, sex, uber-sex and unter-sex, Burton being involved, not involved or those in ‘relationships’, either wed or unwed on the predoodle of Burton’s projecting penis. I suspect now, in 2017, not much has changed except the form of the ‘school’ and the fact that Burton is reaching ever-higher degrees of impotence, because of his age (and that he has been ‘at it’ too long).

For those of us who questioned for many a year, in the FOF, or beyond it, the reasons and/or point of relationships, we have an outlook on life while not self-seeking, needing to find those places, outward and inward, where fulfilment in our activities occurs.

It all comes back to our reason for joining a ‘school’ – was it about evolution, self-consciousness and all those high ideals or did we drop everything for fitting in at the end of the first week?

36. Ames Gilbert - October 28, 2016

Bares Reposting,
all the previous pages of the blog are still available. Maybe you didn’t keep up with the name changes? Anyway, page 10 is here:

37. Ames Gilbert - October 28, 2016

Bares Reposting: Oops, my misunderstanding. You were stating that Kiran’s particular post was missing, not the whole page.
I guess ES deleted it at Kiran’s request?

38. Tim Campion - October 28, 2016


“unoanimo” also preserved a portion of Kiran’s post here.

39. ion - October 29, 2016

Somewhat of an apology to Bruce et al, since I think Steven Spielberg and Leonard Cohen are two ”of the persuasion’ who have gained fame in the media world, yet not abused their privileges…

40. Mind Out of Rhyme - October 30, 2016

How many Fellowship members left the FOF in the wake of the Asaf Braverman defection?

41. ion - October 31, 2016

Bjorn Ulvaeus is a musician, a humanist and a ‘freethinker’. I believe FOF members will leave for Braverman. But, in the end, it is just cults cultivating cults. I think ‘members’ should find a ‘mentally irrigating shrink’ then USE THEIR BRAINS.


42. Bares Reposting - October 31, 2016

Could Robert Earl Burton be a vector for HIV/AIDS?

Here are differing views of how HIV/AIDS is transmitted:

“HIV is transmitted via contact with the blood of an infected individual: through transfusions, needle-sharing, sexual contact or from mother to child during childbirth or breast-feeding. Initially there were concerns that HIV might be vector-borne (e.g., transmitted via mosquitoes) but it has since become widely accepted that such transmission does not occur at any significant level (Bockarie and Paru 1996). This current belief stems both from epidemiological data and experimental studies that directly examine the potential for HIV transmission via arthropods (Lawrence 1987; Lifson 1988; Bockarie and Paru 1996).

HIV cannot be transmitted via insects or other vectors—it can only be transmitted through direct contact with human bodily fluids such as blood, semen, and breast milk. It is commonly transmitted through sexual contact, intravenous drug use, or from a mother to her baby during pregnancy, child birth, or breastfeeding.

However, vector borne-illnesses can increase a person’s chance of contracting HIV and expedite the progression of the virus in people who are living with HIV.

HIV increases the risk of malaria infection, especially in children, pregnant women, and people with advanced HIV or AIDS as their immune systems are less able to fight infection. Pregnant women living with HIV who also become infected with malaria are at increased risk for anemia, placental malaria infection, and low birth weight. Malaria infection can also exacerbate HIV infection and potential transmission by causing higher levels of HIV in the blood of co-infected individuals. Drug treatments for both diseases also have to take into consideration potential drug-drug interactions that may lessen the effectiveness of the treatments.”


“Human immunodeficiency virus infection and acquired immune deficiency syndrome (HIV/AIDS) is a spectrum of conditions caused by infection with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).[5][6][7] Following initial infection, a person may not notice any symptoms or may experience a brief period of influenza-like illness.[8] Typically, this is followed by a prolonged period with no symptoms.[9] As the infection progresses, it interferes more with the immune system, increasing the risk of common infections like tuberculosis, as well as other opportunistic infections, and tumors that rarely affect people who have working immune systems.[8] These late symptoms of infection are referred to as AIDS.[9] This stage is often also associated with weight loss.[9]

HIV is spread primarily by unprotected sex (including anal and oral sex), contaminated blood transfusions, hypodermic needles, and from mother to child during pregnancy, delivery, or breastfeeding.[10] Some bodily fluids, such as saliva and tears, do not transmit HIV.[11] Methods of prevention include safe sex, needle exchange programs, treating those who are infected, and male circumcision.[8] Disease in a baby can often be prevented by giving both the mother and child antiretroviral medication.[8] There is no cure or vaccine; however, antiretroviral treatment can slow the course of the disease and may lead to a near-normal life expectancy.[9][12] Treatment is recommended as soon as the diagnosis is made.[13] Without treatment, the average survival time after infection is 11 years.[14]”


More in next post:

43. Bares Reposting - October 31, 2016


Could Robert Earl Burton be a vector for HIV/AIDS?

Here are differing views of how HIV/AIDS is transmitted:

“‘Anyone who tells you categorically that AIDS is not contracted by saliva is not telling you the truth. AIDS may, in fact, be transmissible by saliva, tears, bodily fluids, and mosquito bites.’
–Dr. William Haseltine, Chief of the Division of Retrovirology, Harvard University

Question: Reports indicate that as many as 40% of the AIDS-infected children in parts of Africa have AIDS-free mothers; how did they become infected?

Answer: Many of them became infected by insect bite.

Every major plague in history has been tied to some type of environmental factor. Cholera and typhoid are spread through contaminated water. Tuberculosis is commonly spread through fomites (towels, dishes, etc.) and aerosol water droplets spewed into the air through coughing and sneezing. One sneeze, for example, can expel 50,000 micro-droplets of water at up to 100 miles per hour traveling many feet away from the person who sneezes. Each one of these droplets is capable of carrying the disease. Smallpox was transmitted by fomites and food. With every other epidemic in history — plague, yellow fever, typhus, malaria, denge fever, etc. — insects were the vector of transmission.

A study in Zaire determined that children with malaria were several times more likely to test positive for AIDS. The only way to get malaria is through mosquito bites. The Pasteur Institute performed a study in 1989 which showed that 30% of the mosquitoes it tested in Africa were infected with HIV. Lab studies in the U.S. have shown that mosquitoes which are allowed to feed on HIV-infected blood still retain active viruses in the blood cells they have consumed for up to 8 days. Many types of mosquitoes have a flying range of about 40 miles.

There are two main methods that the virus can be transmitted by insect bite: mechanical and biological. Blood products that remain on the biting mouth parts of the insect can be introduced into a new host simply through the mechanical act of biting through the victim¹s skin. The virus can also reside comfortably in the saliva and digestive fluid of the insect and can be infused into subsequent victims through the mouth/feeding tube during the biting/feeding process at any time.

At this point in time, over 80 different species of virus are known to be transmitted to humans by mosquitoes and other blood-sucking insects such as fleas, ticks, head lice, biting flies, etc.

Dr. Jean Claude Chermann of the Pasteur Institute, in Paris, reported he has located the DNA of the AIDS virus in field specimens of virtually every African insect species that bites humans. He further determined that 30% of the insects tested contained the AIDS virus itself. This is particularly significant because in most insect-borne diseases only 3% of the insects are routinely found to be infected. This means that the AIDS virus is ten times more concentrated in these insects than usually considered necessary for insect transmission of a disease.

AIDS infectivity research pioneer Dr. William T. O’Connor (Chapter 7, AIDS Exposed) made the following statement on insect transmission of HIV among humans:
‘If ‘they’ knew that insects could spread HIV, ‘they’ would certainly protect themselves, too, wouldn’t ‘they’? And ‘they’ wouldn’t hide that information, would ‘they’!? Well, here’s the ‘they:’ You mentioned the Pasteur Institute, it wasn’t so much the Pasteur Institute, it was Dr. Jean-Claude Chermann who went to Africa and did the studies and found that HIV was in every insect that had contact with human blood. The…question is: can that (HIV) come out of their genome? Is it first spread through to the male line and is it found in the non-bloodsucking mosquitoes…the male mosquitoes? Guess what? It was in the male population of mosquitoes.’

The big question is, can active, infective viral particles get out of that (male) mosquito? When Jean-Claude Chermann was asked by me, in person, when I met him in Marseilles and toured his facility, he said he had received death threats. And he elected to stop studying it.

The scientific question as to whether insects can carry HIV is (officially) unanswered. And it is unanswered because the leading virologist in the world (on the subject) cared more about his family and himself. I don’t blame him! If somebody told me, ‘You keep up that line of research and we will kill you,’ I’d stop, too.

In Africa, in ’88, no one was infected, not even the prostitutes. Now, in Central Africa, you can see up to 60% of given populations infected. I’m saying that in a decade, you can’t rely on just sex (transmission) to do that. And it isn’t hard to catch! That is what Surgeon General Koop told us, ‘Hard to catch! Hard to catch! You have to have sex with someone¹s rectum to get it. Or, inject blood or drink a quart of saliva in order to even get a probability of one viral particle infecting you.’ Well, all of that was lies! But yet, he was the Surgeon General and he gets $10,000 per speaking engagement. He didn’t do so badly, did he?

Internationally recognized AIDS researcher, Dr. Robert Strecker (Chapter 2 AIDS Exposed), had the following response when asked the simple question: Can insects transmit this virus?

‘Oh, absolutely yes! If you look at the relatives of the AIDS virus, known close relatives including: Bovine Leukemia virus, Visna virus, Equine Infectious Anemia virus, Encephalitis virus…all of them are vector borne…all of them are transmitted by insects. And AIDS, coming from Bovine Leukemia virus and Visna virus, would be out of character if it were NOT transmitted by insects.’

In addition, mosquitoes are known to ingest about 5-8 white blood cells during each feeding, which are known to survive intact in the stomach of a mosquito for up to 8 days. And a mosquito has a range, in some cases, of up to 40 miles, and during the next feeding those white blood cells are easily regurgitated into the new host.

The burden of proof lies on anybody who says that AIDS is not transferred by mosquitoes. Of course, they always say, ‘Well, there’s no evidence of that.’ The truth of the matter is they really haven¹t looked at it. It’s a very simple test: we will let 1,000 mosquitoes feed on AIDS-infected blood, then we’ll let them stick their hand into the cage and be bitten by the mosquitoes and we’ll then see if they contract AIDS. A very simple test…but nobody has yet agreed to do it!

Does all of this mean that if you are bitten by a mosquito you should run down for an AIDS test? No. It means, however, that one should be aware that biting insects transmit many viruses and bacteria from person to person and that they certainly CAN transmit HIV. As the number of infected continues to increase in the U.S. raising the chances of insects vectoring HIV, it becomes incumbent upon anyone who wishes to stay well to consider insect bites to be a serious matter, especially in urban areas with high rates of AIDS.

Certainly, HIV infected individuals do not always have the same amount of viral load in their bloodstream during their illness and could be bitten but not yield any infected blood cells to the insect in question. Furthermore, some species of biting insects feed and then digest before feeding again. But for how long do which insects go between feedings? When one considers how many children in Africa, for instance, have AIDS and come from AIDS-free households, insects must be considered as a prime factor in their infections. Dr. Jean-Claude Chermanns research stands on its own.”

44. Bares Reposting - October 31, 2016


Could Robert Earl Burton be a vector for HIV/AIDS?

Here are differing views of how HIV/AIDS is transmitted:

“Human Bite Transmits HIV (6-24-96)

Describing this case in the British Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, Eastern European researchers reported that a 47-year old man who had HIV and advanced AIDS had a seizure at his neighbor’s house. The neighbor, a 53-year old man, put his fingers into the infected man’s mouth in an attempt to open his airway and help him breath, said Dr. Ludvik Vidmar, an infectious disease specialist at the Clinical Center in the Republic of Slovenia.

The man with AIDS subsequently bit the neighbor on his hand, splitting one of his fingernails and leaving teeth imprints on his skin, although the bite wound did not bleed. The healthy man who had been bitten noticed that there was blood on the AIDS victim’s lips caused when he bit his own tongue, Vidmar said.

Although the man initially tested negative for HIV, his doctors assumed he had the disease anyway and started him on a course of AZT treatment only 10 hours after the incident. The reason: standard blood tests (ELISA and Western Blot) often are not accurate until weeks or months after infection has begun when the body mounts its antibody response against the virus.

The good neighbor tested positive for HIV 54 days after being bitten. The AIDS victim who had the seizure died 13 days after biting his friend. The bitten neighbor had been married for 23 years and said he had no other sex partner and that his wife was HIV-negative. He denied ever injecting drugs and had never had a blood transfusion, Vidmar stated.”


Now, it is known that, at least, two Fellowship of Friends members died due to HIV/AIDS, or complications thereof: Richard Focazio and Renato Confalonieri. There are possibly others who have contracted the disease. Susceptibility to HIV/AIDS and other co-infections and diseases is very complicated. HIV/AIDS has an incubation phase where it is not apparent that a person is infected. Also, genetic factors can determine partial or complete immunity to HIV/AIDS, but a person could carry the disease and transmit it without any indication of the illness.

So, it would be prudent to avoid risky interaction with a person who could be a vector. Please consider carefully before physical contact with a potential vector. Avoid unsafe sex. Think twice before letting Robert Earl Burton kiss you on the forehead (if he still does that), or anywhere else, with a mouth that just minutes prior was in contact with a penis and semen of a possibly infected person.


The more important and useful a question than:
Could Robert Earl Burton be a vector for HIV/AIDS?
Do you want to become a vector or a diseased person?

45. ion - November 1, 2016

Sexually transmitted diseases or not – you have to give in to a PATHOLOGICAL NARCISSIST to be ‘available’ to REB. Now, being part of the harem, you will have already been groomed by the enablers/inner circle…You will look the part – DELICATE/EFFEMINATE, preferably in your 20s – want to be dressed in silk, satin and lace (at least for your underwear!!!!!) – you may have gracious manners, you may LISP ‘petty poetry’ or play a ‘sensitive violin’…..

I think you have two choices…..

You give in to the disgusting wiles of a sexual predator, who these days is experiencing ongoing erectile dysfunction (unless the Viagra becomes stronger or more pills are consumed), or…..

You get on the first Greyhound Bus out of Oregon House, get your folks to pay your airfare to your home country (make up with your parents!!!!! or at least the one remaining) and WORK WITH LIKE MINDED VICTIMS to rebuild a stronger community where YOU SHOULD BE LIVING…..

These words…..

Building your life on your own terms.
If you are artistic, do not be put upon.
Finding meaning in a simple, yet worthy life.

Sonnet 33 by William Shakespeare

Full many a glorious morning have I seen
Flatter the mountain-tops with sovereign eye,
Kissing with golden face the meadows green,
Gilding pale streams with heavenly alchemy;
Anon permit the basest clouds to ride
With ugly rack on his celestial face,
And from the forlorn world his visage hide,
Stealing unseen to west with this disgrace:
Even so my sun one early morn did shine
With all triumphant splendor on my brow;
But out! alack! he was but one hour mine,
The region cloud hath mask’d him from me now.
Yet him for this my love no whit disdaineth;
Suns of the world may stain when heaven’s sun staineth.

46. ion - November 2, 2016

My take on Braverman is this…..

He is slick and manipulative. Also, he wants power and, finally, would not want to subject HIS power to that of Burton. We all know Burton to be a narcissistic psychopath – jealousy of status, influence and wealth.

I suggest Braverman was already on the brink of pulling away from Burton’s group – enough followers, enough membership fees coming in from his websites (s) seminars.

I think it is quite synchronistic (some of you hate that phrase) that Burton and His Board of Directors decide on Braverman’s ejection at the very point where Braverman’s “ARK” is ‘going afloat’.

Oops, another group bound for tragical/comical/historical. ,

47. ion - November 3, 2016

Creativity in Management

Managing Innovation: When Less Is More
Charlan Jeanne Nemeth

California Management Review, Vol. 40 No. 1, Fall 1997; (pp. 59-74)

“An analysis of many highly successful and “visionary” companies reveals the existence of corporate cultures that emphasize adherence to company goals and cohesiveness within the group. While such cultures can improve effort, morale, and productivity, they also tend to thwart innovation—limiting not only the expression of “originär ideas, but even their production. Research in social psychology suggests that flexibility to changing circumstances and innovation is better served by a “culture” that not only tolerates, but welcomes dissent and minority views. Such dissent—even when wrong—stimulates better decision making and innovation. Thus, the proper harnessing of dissent may provide a mechanism for creating unity without uniformity and for igniting the “spark” of innovation.”

48. Associated Press - November 3, 2016

October 31, 2016, Oregon House, California

Fellowship of Friends CEO Goes Missing After Trump’s Top Money Guru Found Dead

By: Sucha Hakov, and as reported to her Western Subscribers 😉

Another astonishing Security Council (SC) report circulating in the Kremlin today states that the Main Directorate for Migration Affairs (GUVM) of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD) reported this morning that former Fellowship of Friends CEO Braverman, who last week applied for “urgent and immediate” political asylum at the Russian Embassy in New York City, failed to keep his scheduled interview yesterday—with speculation being made by Federation intelligence analysts that his having gone missing is “directly related” to the mysterious and sudden death of Donald Trump’s top money guru E. Zee Streetee. [Note: Some words and/or phrases appearing in quotes in this report are English language approximations of Russian words/phrases having no exact counterpart.]

According to this report, Mr. Braverman was scheduled to return to the Russian Embassy in New York City yesterday for an in-depth interview related to the request he made last week for “urgent and immediate” political asylum in Russia—and as we had previously reported, sent shockwaves through the Kremlin as some Federation intelligence analysts believed his request was for the purpose of “protection by publicity” due to his fears that the Burton Crime Family wanted him killed.

Fears that he was being targeted for death by the Burton Crime Family, specifically Robert Burton, this report continues, was due to Mr. Braverman’s past association with the Fellowship of Friends criminal money laundering organization that he headed as CEO after being installed there by Burton who discovered for himself the massive corruption of this supposed to be charity.
With the American press widely reporting (though skeptically) Mr. Braverman’s asylum request (“a simple “here I am” could quiet the waters – but there has been none”), however, this report notes, Federation intelligence analysts contributing to this report note that not only did he fail to keep yesterday’s interview date at the Russian Embassy in New York City, he has yet to publically deny his actions, and since 12 October has failed to even update his Twitter page account.

To why Mr. Braverman has gone silent and missing, this report continues, the Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) is attributing to yet another Burton Crime Family related mysterious death—this one being Donald Trump’s longtime billionaire money guru E. Zee Streetee, age 64, found dead this past week in her Trump Plaza home, located in West Palm Beach, Florida—with one media account suggesting it was related to a domestic harm case involving her husband and longtime business partner, and another saying she died of a stroke—but with no autopsy having yet been performed.

Donald Trump’s money guru E. Zee Streetee, this report explains, was one of the most powerful women financiers on Wall Street whose company, Streetee Group LLC, achieved a staggering 2,132% increase of profits between 1987-2015 and was co-run by her husband Charles LaGrandte.

As to why Burton Crime Family feared and hated E. Zee Streetee, this report says, is due to her having created for Donald Trump an “extraordinary/unique” investment portfolio that, in essence, has allowed him to run his revolutionary presidential campaign entirely debt free costing him virtually nothing as for every dollar he spent, he was able to gain back two more—thus making it the first US presidential election run in history to turn a profit.

With what is infamously called the Burton Body Count rapidly increasing through this U.S. presidential election cycle, this report concludes, there now appears to be a breaking of support of Robert Burton among Fellowship of Friends elites, with even the Chicago Tribune this past week saying followers should ask Robert Burton to step aside as the Fellowship of Friends is breaking down and their warning that it’s been crumbling for some time now, and the establishment elite know it and they’re properly frightened—and is most assuredly going to get worse with the shocking revelation that the FBI has now discovered a staggering 650,000 Robert Burton secret pedophile sex partners on the computer of his top aide, disgraced Mr. Braverman.

49. ion - November 5, 2016

Not wishing to be too cruel about this man/machine – I believe his stroke was caused by TOO MUCH SITTING and NOT ENOUGH VIGOROUS BRAIN ACTIVITY – I believe, although he may be in the background (if alive, still), what did Girard Haven ACTUALLY DO???

He lapped up every word of Burton’s, then dispersed the ‘facts’ verbatim, even turning ‘twiddly meaningless sayings’ into books and books. Many worshipped him and found him A COMFORT FOR THE NONSENSICAL COGNITIVE DISSONANCE TYPE OF LIFE THEY WERE LEADING. He led centers, he went around the world, preaching to the perverted. I found him useless to approach. He had no common sense about difficult situations (he probably did not face any himself) AND TAUGHT ME NOTHING ABOUT LIFE AND HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.

He was/is an enabler par excellence, destined to the scrap pie of humanity.

50. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 6, 2016

Page156/23. Wouldnt You Like To Know – October 24, 2016

“From FaceBook:

Asaf Braverman: 20 years in the Fellowship of Friends.
You all know I did my best to make it better.
23Oct16 at 11:35am”

From FaceBook, Asaf Braverman page, comment on the above:

M. V. (a long term Fellowship of Friends member):
“Asaf, It was you who was made better by the efforts of our teacher, not the other way around. We all give back in the way we can and it is the valuation of our teacher that was lacking so ..time to go. Good luck.
October 30 at 11:22am”

E. V. (a long term Fellowship of Friends member):
“Beyond right doing and wrong doing there is a line we’ll meet all there. Inside or outside, the deepest depth and the highest high…. all illusions.Here we ARE!
October 25 at 10:00am

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I will meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about
Ideas, language, even the phrase
each other
doesn’t make any sense.”

Mevlana Jelaluddin Rumi – 13th century
From Essential Rumi p.36
by Coleman Barks

51. Ames Gilbert - November 6, 2016

So, in the very small pond over there in Oregon House, big things are happening. The Great Fraud is having a grand snit, not the usual level whenever he doesn’t get his way, but a multi–day Snit, and he is trembling with anger and fear.
Asaf Braverman has joined the elite group of individuals that has acted out A Play of Crime™. Translated, this means that because Asaf’s dismissal is causing some waves, it reflects badly on Burton, or rather his self–image. More importantly, it takes attention away from Burton, hence the ‘crime’. Remember, Burton demands 100% of the attention of his followers, and he is reminding them that any feelings whatsoever for anyone else are expressly forbidden; he bitterly resents any diminution of the narcissistic supply. So he has arranged some meetings for the followers, in order that his representatives can inform them of his thoughts about Criminals and Plays of Crime™. One of those representatives is—wait for it—Girard Haven, rolled out from inglorious insignificance to verifabricate™ explanations for the turmoil. To rescue himself from well–deserved obscurity, the Sole Remaining Officially Recognized Man Number Five™ had to do some serious fawning. He apparently wrote an obsequious and oleaginous letter to Burton, reminding him of his petty existence and previous slavish service, and stating that he stood ready to humiliate himself still further. Just the stuff that Burton likes, and he responded by making him one of two Official Explainers™ to the laity, the other being Dorian Mattei.

52. Ames Gilbert - November 6, 2016

Let’s review the brief list of those officially proclaimed Future Men Number Fives™, in order of appearance: Donald MacDonald, Miles Barth, Girard Haven, James Tyndale–Biscoe, Asaf Braverman, Mihai Oltean, Dorian Mattei, and the latest, Sacha Shalaponov. That’s eight that I’ve heard of, I’m sure there are more. Of these, all that are left are the sorry apologist Girard Haven, the loathsome opportunist Dorian Mattei and the hideously lurid Sacha Shalapanov. What does that say for Burton’s powers of observation, sense of discrimination, let alone powers of prophecy? Powers that in reality have turned to be considerably less than ordinary. In fact, non–existent. Hey, you deep thinkers in the Fellowship of Friends, doesn’t it seem more likely he chooses names of those who reflect his glory best or are otherwise useful to him, or who he wants to flatter to get sex? Certainly the 45 ‘angels’ he claims communicate with him have consistently and totally screwed up their messaging to him in every other sphere. These supposed ‘angels’ are some of the worst communicators ever, and Burton is one of the worst and most obtuse recipients of their fathomless wisdom, wouldn’t anyone with even average intelligence agree? I know, I know, we are supposed to paper up the cracks with heaping dollops of faith, all will be revealed in some future lifetime, rich will be the rewards for those that kept the faith (and, not so incidentally, kept the checks coming).

All IMO, of course!

53. Ames Gilbert - November 6, 2016

So obviously Burton was completely, thoroughly, irrefutably, irredeemably wrong about Asaf all this time. A twenty–year–long drawn out mistake; twenty long years to discover the criminal rot, the snake residing in plain sight, at his right hand, in his bed. The Fraud spent twenty years being obtuse instead of aware. Some ‘conscious being’! No wonder he wants to change the subject! So, being the self–centered shit he is, why not kill two birds with one stone, both change the subject and find a new object for the group to focus on—no ordinary enemy, like a county supervisor who doesn’t co–operate, but a renegade, a rebel, an ungrateful traitor. Someone who rocks the groupthink, pushes at the belief bubble, threatens the fantasy.

Now the Organization and hence the groupthink has been threatened, the reaction is inevitable and the substance (or lack of it) totally predictable, because it is totally mechanical. Sorry, all you wide–awake, evolved beings in the Fellowship of Friends. I’m 99% certain that Asaf is being spoken about in hushed whispers, with plenty of “C–influence has taken away his understanding” and “Those whom the gods wish to destroy…”, and “Food for the moon” and ‘wrong work’, and ‘the queen of hearts seeking to gain ascendancy”, and “the lower Self eating all possibilities”. The protective mechanism works to deny anything positive about Asaf leaving (can’t have any suggestion of the possibility of individuating or graduating or having completed the apprenticeship!). When someone leaves, it is a direct challenge to the status quo, especially to those with the most investment in the fantasy, such as those with a visible role, or status or authority. So, the process both ‘self–calms’ and reinforces the groupthink.

All IMO, of course!

54. Ames Gilbert - November 6, 2016

Then there is this comment (from Asaf Bravermans Facebook page) by a Marla Volovna, then instantly repeated, word for word, by fellow follower Chetan Balva. Those words: Asaf, it was you who was made better by the efforts of our teacher, not the other way around. We all give back in the way we can and it is the valuation of our teacher that was lacking so ..time to go. Good luck.

It’s an essential part of the groupthink, this claim that followers owe everything to Burton, coupled with the implication that any criticism, any questioning is a ‘lack of valuation of our teacher’. Burton claims the fruits of all efforts by the followers, but conveniently escapes all consequences of his debased actions, and gets paid a fortune for the ripoff. Again, this supports the contention that the FoF setup is a religion, with Burton as the central figurehead, the object of worship. If he was ever merely a signpost pointing the way for explorers, that phase is long past. He is now the destination, and the purpose of the journey is to arrive at the realization that he is a living god, kindly condescending to dwell amongst us and receive our unquestioning worship. All those that disagree will go to hell (aka, “food for the moon”). Nor will those who never got to choose be spared. Mighty angels will destroy the entire unworthy masses of humanity, leaving only those who have made out checks to Burton and are current in their ‘teaching payments’. Just like it says in the ‘Fourth Way’!

All IMO, of course!

55. Golden Veil - November 6, 2016

LIke such an old queen, “Off with his head!” admonished Robert Earl Burton regarding Asaf Braverman. Ironic, too, as it must have been Burton, after all, who encouraged Braverman to be the captain of the BePeriod school, thinking it would be an online “bookmark” to attract new followers to the Fellowship of Friends. That Braverman found it a job that was fulfilling personally was no doubt his demise regarding his standing in the Fellowship of Friends.

It is notable that Braverman’s FaceBook page is now private, an indication that he does not want people who are not friends to see his resolution to stay with BePeriod or the ensuing comments about his decision.

It think it also notable that he still has on his GGurdjief.com website About page, this: “I encountered the Fourth Way in 1995, joining Burton’s Fellowship of Friends, and am still a member of that organization.” I think that this is a strong indication of where is loyalties still lie – and that if Burton were to compromise (and he really should also also apologize), I suspect that Braverman and his family would re-enter the fold and still be there, members of the Fellowship of Friends.

It is reported that at an emergency meeting, soon after the inner circle student-teacher schism was announced, Burton had a slide show include the image of an old cemetery gravestone displaying the maiden name of Braverman’s wife and her parents (long time Fellowship members.) How much more of this queen’s ill-conceived programs and vulgar manifestations will his followers have to swallow, grin, and bear?

56. Ollie - November 7, 2016

I haven’t posted here in years, so apologies if this is a bit out of context. I was a fof member for quite a long time but left, happily, some 10 years ago. Hearing about Asaf B’s recent exit and reading a few stories about what’s happening in the old cult now, I thought, oh dear, how many people are actually still willing to be part of this? Not that the fof has substantially changed over the years, but still, people must somehow have a sense, deep down in their hearts, that they are members of a painfully unhealthy and moronic organisation. Well, at some point I certainly did! Anyhow, I wondered about membership numbers: How many people are still in there, and where in the world do they live? I am in infrequent contact with someone who is still a fof member (he has his reasons…) and he was willing to share a collection of data from the fof database. So here is a whole bunch of numbers, sorry if it’s a bit much but they give at least some idea of what’s happened over the last 10 years. It’s surprising to me that, after a large drop between 2005 and 2007, the numbers have remained pretty steady at around 1,500 worldwide. And the fofers still seem to be able to recruit a few new followers here and there. Looks like they’re doing pretty well in Russia, Mexico and India. So the sequence still sells! Amazing… Don’t spiritually inclined people google around these days? It’s not exactly difficult to find out what the fof is really all about, behind the pretty suits and ties.

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Dec 2005: 2,173
Nov 2007: 1,848
Dec 2010: 1,519
Dec 2013: 1,592
Nov 2016: 1,554

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Oregon House (Apollo)
Nov 2007: 680
Dec 2010: 565
Dec 2013: 561
Nov 2016: 530

Nov 2007: 5
Dec 2010: 3
Dec 2013: 3
Nov 2016: 4

Los Angeles
Nov 2007: 6
Dec 2010: 7
Dec 2013: 5
Nov 2016: 5

Nov 2007: 0
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 10

New York
Nov 2007: 17
Dec 2010: 18
Dec 2013: 28
Nov 2016: 19

Palo Alto
Nov 2007: 12
Dec 2010: 9
Dec 2013: 3
Nov 2016: 10

Nov 2007: 12
Dec 2010: 10
Dec 2013: 8
Nov 2016: 19

San Francisco
Nov 2007: 13
Dec 2010: 7
Dec 2013: 5
Nov 2016: 11

Washington, DC
Nov 2007: 10
Dec 2010: 10
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 7
Dec 2010: 6
Dec 2013: 5
Nov 2016: 9

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Mexico City
Nov 2007: 53
Dec 2010: 57
Dec 2013: 47
Nov 2016: 55

Nov 2007: 7
Dec 2010: 10
Dec 2013: 3
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 35
Dec 2010: 19
Dec 2013: 26
Nov 2016: 30

Nov 2007: 7
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Nov 2007: 9
Dec 2010: 7
Dec 2013: 17
Nov 2016: 5

Buenos Aires
Nov 2007: 33
Dec 2010: 21
Dec 2013: 25
Nov 2016: 27

Nov 2007: 12
Dec 2010: 13
Dec 2013: 15
Nov 2016: 10

Porto Alegre
Nov 2007: 5
Dec 2010: 3
Dec 2013: 3
Nov 2016: 3

San Salvador
Nov 2007: 16
Dec 2010: 9
Dec 2013: 8
Nov 2016: 4

Nov 2007: 13
Dec 2010: 9
Dec 2013: 13
Nov 2016: 11

Sao Paulo
Nov 2007: 28
Dec 2010: 20
Dec 2013: 15
Nov 2016: 15

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Nov 2007: 30
Dec 2010: 27
Dec 2013: 25
Nov 2016: 26

Nov 2007: 27
Dec 2010: 23
Dec 2013: 18
Nov 2016: 17

Nov 2007: 4
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 0
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 5
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 10
Dec 2010: 9
Dec 2013: 5
Nov 2016: 5

Nov 2007: 15
Dec 2010: 14
Dec 2013: 10
Nov 2016: 13

Nov 2007: 6
Dec 2010: 5
Dec 2013: 4
Nov 2016: 4

Nov 2007: 5
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 6
Dec 2010: 4
Dec 2013: 3
Nov 2016: 3

Nov 2007: 17
Dec 2010: 13
Dec 2013: 11
Nov 2016: 8

Nov 2007: 16
Dec 2010: 21
Dec 2013: 18
Nov 2016: 9

Nov 2007: 41
Dec 2010: 38
Dec 2013: 43
Nov 2016: 44

Nov 2007: 12
Dec 2010: 7
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 44
Dec 2010: 33
Dec 2013: 31
Nov 2016: 31

Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 5

Nov 2007: 7
Dec 2010: 3
Dec 2013: 2
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 12
Dec 2010: 14
Dec 2013: 16
Nov 2016: 20

Nov 2007: 4
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

North Germany
Nov 2007: 12
Dec 2010: 7
Dec 2013: 5
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 1
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 23
Dec 2010: 21
Dec 2013: 27
Nov 2016: 23

Nov 2007: 9
Dec 2010: 8
Dec 2013: 9
Nov 2016: 11

Nov 2007: 19
Dec 2010: 12
Dec 2013: 17
Nov 2016: 13

Nov 2007: 0
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 18
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 14
Dec 2010: 5
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 14

Nov 2007: 8
Dec 2010: 8
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 8
Dec 2010: 2
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 7
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 6
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 5
Dec 2010: 7
Dec 2013: 7
Nov 2016: 7

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Nov 2007: 0
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 16

Nov 2007: 19
Dec 2010: 23
Dec 2013: 11
Nov 2016: 17

Nov 2007: 7
Dec 2010: 7
Dec 2013: 42
Nov 2016: 22

Nov 2007: 0
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 10

Tel Aviv
Nov 2007: 48
Dec 2010: 31
Dec 2013: 40
Nov 2016: 32

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Nov 2007: 10
Dec 2010: 6
Dec 2013: 7
Nov 2016: 5

Nov 2007: 10
Dec 2010: 6
Dec 2013: 2
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 32
Dec 2010: 38
Dec 2013: 49
Nov 2016: 42

Nov 2007: 13
Dec 2010: 16
Dec 2013: 15
Nov 2016: 11

Nov 2007: 84
Dec 2010: 79
Dec 2013: 116
Nov 2016: 118

Nizhny Novgorod
Nov 2007: 16
Dec 2010: 13
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 14
Dec 2010: 9
Dec 2013: 8
Nov 2016: 5

Nov 2007: 7
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 10
Dec 2010: 13
Dec 2013: 15
Nov 2016: 13

St. Petersburg
Nov 2007: 71
Dec 2010: 48
Dec 2013: 50
Nov 2016: 63

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Nov 2007: 49
Dec 2010: 57
Dec 2013: 65
Nov 2016: 57

Nov 2007: 5
Dec 2010: 4
Dec 2013: 4
Nov 2016: 6

Nov 2007: 13
Dec 2010: 12
Dec 2013: 17
Nov 2016: 15

Nov 2007: 20
Dec 2010: 17
Dec 2013: 21
Nov 2016: 20

Nov 2007: 27
Dec 2010: 19
Dec 2013: 20
Nov 2016: 14

Nov 2007: 3
Dec 2010: 2
Dec 2013: 1
Nov 2016: 0

Nov 2007: 3
Dec 2010: 0
Dec 2013: 0
Nov 2016: 0

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Nov 2007: 38
Dec 2010: 35
Dec 2013: 45
Nov 2016: 52

57. John Harmer - November 7, 2016

#56 thanks Ollie. It looks like the FoF are doing fairly well, chilling to see all the new cities names, and also to see London still has 44 members, as if it got caught in some time freezing aspic.

58. Nino Pavković - November 7, 2016

I’m member at the FoF since 13 years. It took me more than five years to understand whats going on there in this stange cult.
The newest hassle around Asaf Braverman are shocking for me!

One have to feel somehow seriously dissatisfied with regular life and with the common way of thinking to feel attracted to the FoF. Indeed: there are many reasons for a sensible character not to agree with the ruling faculty in this world as well with Robert Burton.

Robert Burton is definately an unusual man with a huge range between good and evel. But: studying the biografies of lots of remarkable men and spiritual teachers over the centuries, I found just few reports of being nice & pleasant people once they lived and acted.

One have to be ultimately brave & clever with upright spine to have profit of the membership at the FoF. They provides both: extremly friction and the ultimative way out of that friction!
Life and many old religions do not show the clear direction how to find the peace of mind & soul. The FoF really do!

The message the FoF do teach is timeless & elegant!
The FoF brings you on a hourly level to the decision: go nuts or transform all the weird stuff which they are stiring alltogether there!

It work’s once one have learned not to identify with any sensation or experience one is making at the FoF. Gurdieff said once: Be like a thief – just take the good things and leave the rubbish!

The effort of “Being present” is an unremitting moment-to-moment effort. If you lose for only 15 seconds your aim, you will find yourself in a madhouse among other madmen. Very exciting! The FoF is an unique & extreme avantgarde high speed spiritual teaching which is almoust impossible to explain to folks which have ruling aim to lead a comfortable, funny & pleasant life.

I can’t recommend the membership at the FoF to anybody! It’s too strange, it’s too difficult to grasp the ‘red thread’. Many intelligent & smart men & women (more than 40 thousand) have joined & left the FoF during the last 40 years. The FoF isn’t a home for sweet New Age fans. The FoF isn’t a fancy spiritual cult with an excentric gay teacher, nor a sophisticated religious country club. It’s a rough place for ultimative spiritual worriors.

I do fully understand everybody who do leave with abhorrence this sort of spiritual school and can’t find any deeper meaning in its existance.

But belive me: we all are living in a dualistic world. Where you can find lots of minus there you can find lots of plus. It’s a cosmic law.

59. Oscar - November 7, 2016

Ames G. and G.V. : The real bummer for Asaf is that after all of his years of “hard work” for “influence c” and “the school,” he’s now on the fast track to hell and damnation. Meanwhile, a naive millennial Londoner can join up a few days before Armageddon and be saved…

Oh wait — his check bounced?

Sorry ole chap!! No Influence C for you.

57. The fof is more like one of Trump’s business failures. Those who invested got screwed, while he quietly ducked out the back door. Given the stated goal of 10,000 strong, the only sincere conclusion is that the entire enterprise is an embarrassing and catastrophic failure. Unless of course you think there’s something to admire in temporarily deceiving people by the thousands.

60. ion - November 7, 2016

Linda Tulisso (or whatever was her Latin paramor) used to talk of “getting back to basics” and “self-remembering is the buffer of this age”. To hit her ‘right between the eyes’ and to focus some of the posts, this time by a former cult-chaser and member of the FBI, I thought this might ‘boil Burton’s blood’…..


by Joe Navarro MA (spycatcher)

61. Tim Campion - November 7, 2016

58. Nino,

“I do fully understand everybody who do leave with abhorrence this sort of spiritual school and can’t find any deeper meaning in its existance.”

Sadly, Nino, you may never fully understand the Fellowship-induced trance you have been in. And it may take years after leaving the cult to even begin to understand. Asaf has a long road ahead if he is to break the spell. Just as indoctrination occurs slowly, almost imperceptibly, deprogramming is a remarkably slow process.

I wish you good luck.

(For the record, the Fellowship has had nowhere near 40,000 pass through its gates. A more realistic estimate would be 15,000.)

62. Oscar - November 7, 2016

Nino Pavković —
Welcome! Thank you for sharing your viewpoints. Please invite your friends in the fof to read and post here as well.

Think of it in terms of healthy vs. unhealthy. The question is, when does something become inherently harmful, diseased, hateful, and disempowering vs. healthy, life-giving, loving, and empowering. For many organizations, there’s no other other way to accurately describe them without using adjectives such as “criminal,” “dysfunctional,” “deplorable,” and so on.

So let’s go back to my first paragraph above: Would Robert Burton discourage any widespread participation by members of the cult in this blog? Absolutely, he would.

If you disagree, give it a try: Send out emails to everyone you know, include a link to this blog, and share some of the comments by Ames, Bruce, and WhaleRider as an introduction. Encourage 1,500 people in the school to participate in the blog and suggest they read carefully and offer their contrasting viewpoints. And keep sending the emails. Explain how it would be a healthy way for everyone to evaluate the fof — i.e., learn now to really “value” it — by welcoming new ideas, and engaging in constructive criticism of the organization of which they are a part.

But you know the above actions are not possible without immediately being kicked out of the fof. That’s the first very bad sign. It all goes downhill from there.

63. ion - November 7, 2016

Anyone else had the idea from “Milton”? God has a favorite angel, who wants ‘too much slice of the pie’. He (Satan) and the Rebel Angels are expelled from Heaven. An analogy, not an actuality, folks.

64. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 7, 2016

“The message the FoF do teach is timeless & elegant!”

“The FoF brings you on a hourly level to the decision: go nuts or transform all the weird stuff which they are stiring alltogether there!”

The Fellowship of Friends is a sociopathic training ground operated within a backdrop of pure mythological fantasy. There is less “higher consciousness” there than almost any place in the world. The Fellowship of Friends is an environment of very low intelligence.

65. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 7, 2016

Long is the way
And hard,
That out of Hell
Leads up to Light.
John Milton
Paradise Lost

66. WhaleRider - November 7, 2016

Welcome, El Niño!

“But: studying the biografies of lots of remarkable men and spiritual teachers over the centuries, I found just few reports of being nice & pleasant people once they lived and acted.”

That should tell you something about people who ‘claim’ to be enlightened.

“Many intelligent & smart men & women (more than 40 thousand) have joined & left the FoF during the last 40 years.”

That should tell you something about the people who stay in the FOF.

67. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 7, 2016

Paraphrasing: “The Fellowship of Friends has been my personally successful swap meet and exclusive vendor for procuring idiots for slaves, dollars for my pockets and cocks for my ass.” ~The Prophet of Armageddon, Brightest Light in 2000 Years

68. Golden Veil - November 7, 2016

58. Nino Pavković – November 7, 2016

“One have to be ultimately brave & clever with upright spine to have profit of the membership at the FoF. They provides both: extremly friction and the ultimative way out of that friction!

Life and many old religions do not show the clear direction how to find the peace of mind & soul. The FoF really do!”

If you are a heterosexual male, Nino, and Fellowship of Friends “friction” includes stoned sex with the male teacher Robert Burton (while holding your nose and trying to keep from vomiting), why would you want that kind of path to a higher state (no way is it a path to a higher state!)?

Also, before your tim,e Nino, there is a record of Burton having coerced a male follower to have sex – and then coercing the follower’s son. Neither are in the Fellowship of Friends any longer, and only the selling off of paintings and museum quality antiques enabled Burton to settle the lawsuit brought by the son outside of court. Evidently he decided that he didn’t want that kind of friction.

I wonder if the son finally has peace of mind about his “friction.” Well, maybe not, but with his pockets lined with settlement cash, maybe we should consider him “ultimately brave & clever with upright spine to have profit of the membership at the FoF.”

Nino, if you are a young man, at least you won’t have to worry about your son getting into the clutches of Burton. Although – we don’t really know the tastes of his heir apparent, Dorian. Maybe he will continue the weird, perverted birthday and before & after dinner sexual rituals.

69. Associated Press - November 8, 2016

Bizarre, weird, and perverted sexual rituals are the modus operandi at the heart of the Fellowship of Friends (FoF). Besides those practiced by The Teacher, Robert Earl Burton (REB), delineated extensively on this blog and elsewhere, other key persons are following suit with their own spins on sexual rituals: G. H., REB apologist, chief explainer of FoF, and long time predicted man #5, is a serial monogamist? with quite a few marriages with an ex-spouse, or ex-spouses, that have made public some of their private observations of his behaviour. As a minister, or one-time minister, in FoF, you might say that he was described as officiating the marriage ceremony on himself.

Chief inner circle persons, read: REB lackeys and sex partners (no names mentioned here but described elsewhere on this blog and elsewhere), have traded various favours (monetarily and otherwise) for sex and have had orgy in the bedroom of Robert Earl Burton, during his absense.

Many persons within the closed environment of FoF, especially in Oregon House, have traded partners extensively because there is nowhere else to go in the limited social environment. Pedophilia has happened repeatedly. The only outrageous sex behaviour I have not seen, or had knowledge of, as being too widespread in FoF, is people having rampant sex with their blood relatives; but it would not surprise me. (Maybe all those exotic animals are being collected and bred for another reason than filling the Ark with many species, two-by-two.)

Some people have gone to jail or been deported. Find on this page alone described the problem about sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) epidemic in Oregon House neighborhood.

However, a caveat, not all of the 500-800, or so, members in Oregon House over the years, and extensive visitors, are participants in these sexually oriented activities, but condonement and acceptance is par for the course and people just shrug it off, look the other way, or practice cognitive dissonance. A good description would be OzArk.

So, if you are into that sort of thing, maybe FoF is the place for you.

70. Nino Pavković - November 8, 2016

Like I wrote earlier: everything is right what you folks do mention. But: In the Fourth Way theory one can’t understand somebody if one have a negative approach towards this person.
Thruth is neutral, nor bad neither good.
This spiritual work isn’t based on words or on competiton of arguments. I know, it sounds totally silly for almoust everybody, but: if one can manage to value Robert Burton without prejudice, one can value almoust everybody on the planet earth without prejudice. The spiritual goal hangs pretty high at the fof: BE like a ‘Buddha’ for 15 minutes! Or become a fool for years and lick your wounds after leaving the fof for the rest of your life and spread out your frustration & bitterness.
The spiritual challenge (and the way out of the battle of arguments) lies in controlled shifting of the own state of mind (by obsering the own breath and the own existence with divided attention) from being clever & sophisticated towards a state of simple plain observing without any judgement, like a child do or like a cat. Don’t comment, just look. Gurdieff called this sort of action a ‘supereffort’.
Ordinary efforts don’t count at the fof.

In that moment one becomes again discriminating or moralic or horrified one will find himself midst among “sleeping machines” threatend to be raped or squeezed out, like in the real life usual.

Robert Burton really don’t make efforts to be admired by anybody.
Take it or leave it.

My personal valuation of Dorian Mattei is enormous.

I met personally at the fof some of very extraodinary men & women all around the world which inspired me maximally. Very unusal strong charecters.

Being a member of the fof means to expose oneself to extreme impressions. It’s like a spiritual mountain climbing where one shouldn’t make major mistakes.
If one is simple minded or naive or weak, one becomes easily ‘food’ for others.
This is valid not only for the fof. That’s another cosmic law.

71. brucelevy - November 8, 2016

Oh boy.

72. John Harmer - November 8, 2016

70. Nino Pavković, you express a view which I think nearly everybody who was once a student in the FoF recognises, and held themselves to some extent. And for those who abandon that view there are many different reasons. You may remain in the FoF for the rest of your life. But here is a caution. The mental exercises that the FoF recommends, including the rather self centered “being present” exercise, but especially the “separating from friction to create higher energy” technique, led me personally to a place that I hadn’t wanted to go. I was very successful at separating from friction, but it affected all my emotions. Everything became a play, in a sense of being unreal. Weird but lacking human warmth and contact. I have read up on this and there is a word in psychology for what happened, it is called depersonalisation. I believe the Gurdjieff system and the way Burton applies it can lead to this state. The better you get at prolonged periods of wordless silence, and separating from suffering, the more at threat you are from this condition, IMHO.

73. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 8, 2016

There is a very fine line that separates necessary suffering from unnecessary suffering. It is all part of the illusion, of awakening. One might even call it the golden veil that separates the real from the imaginary. Each spiritual aspirant must learn for themselves how to discern this difference.

“It’s like a spiritual mountain climbing where one shouldn’t make major mistakes.”

In this ‘spiritual mountain climbing,’ it is this discernment of ‘necessary suffering from unnecessary suffering’ that climbs the final steps of any mountain climbing: to reach that final challenge of surmounting the mountain of your self.

Facilis decensus Averno;
Noctes atque dies patet atri ianua Ditis;
Sed revocare gradum superasque evadere ad auras;
Hoc opus, hic labor est.

Publius Vergilius Maro
15October70 BC – 21September19 BC
Aeneid VI.126-9

Easy is the descent to Hell
Night and day the gates
Of black Hades lay open;
But to take back your steps
And escape to the heavenly air;
That is a task, that is work.

74. WhaleRider - November 8, 2016

@John Harmer

Well said. I agree. Having to “separate” from “friction” caused by burton’s sadistic behavior was a very unhealthy practice for me, too.

@El Niño
I don’t know how else to put this to you. The so-called “higher” part of you watching the other “lower” part of you is more flawed and able to be manipulated than you realize.

I’m sure you have met some people in the FOF with some pretty strong delusions, too. Delusions, like superstitions, can be contagious. You can catch them from others, as well as entertain a vast array of them yourself.

Re: the cosmic law, the yin and the yang, the good and the bad…you are so right! Brilliant. There is good and bad in everything. It is a cosmic law.

So what makes the cult any different than life?

But you seem to think life is made up entirely of mad men, and that without self vigilance you too will go mad, which may very well be the case whether you are in a cult or out.

Is the real difference that ex-members value themselves more than they value the cult leader? You bet they do.

Thank you for posting!

I think the spun response on Facebook of Asaf’s departure…”it was you who were made better by the efforts of yadda yadda” is an apt example of Shaw’s premise that a cult corrupts and destroys a follower’s subjectivity, superimposed by the cult leader’s.

75. Nino Pavković - November 8, 2016

Again: that’s all right what you say, John! I agree with your experience without any doubt. And I thank you for your clear neutral way of writing your oppinion.

If one do practice ‘being present’ and don’t becomes more emotional and compassive with himself & others, why than continue with this method? There is only one real reason I do this work: to improve my life.

I became much more strong & clear in mind since I succeeded to reach regularly the ‘Third state’. It tooks me almoust 6 years of try and error.
The intellectual part of the instinctive center fakes a higher state of mind. One is concentrated and focused on oneself, and do (mistakingly) control own breath, but feels very tired and empty after such a event. That’s a trap!

Personally I met at the FoF many students which are more intelligent and experienced than me (55 years old psychologist & carpenter from Croatia, living at Europe) in this work.
But I veryfied clearly what Gurdieff said: Understanding is a overlap (cutting volume) of being and knowledge. Without strong being a student hardly will have profit of the spiritual knowledge which the FoF provides in abundance.

I was also not amused when I realized that the teacher & many students can’t control their donky between their legs. That’s another trick of the “machine”: to provide too much sex energy which than enters any action and emotion of an alien. If sex energy enters the emotional center the resulst are pervert. A tragedy! Those described nasty & ugly actions are a result of depersonilazation. The base is a lack of compassion with the victim. Victims are both: the predator and the passive associate sex mate.

Depersonalisation is a slippery step on any spiritual way.
If you read what christian, buddhist, moslem etc etc followers says and how they act you can easily detect depersonalisation. Same at sports and at any other extreme identification.

Any permanent fear depersonalizes us. Any greed (sex abuse, food, drugs) depersonalizes us. Any feature!

A better expression for me is: it fools us.

‘Persona’ was at the old Roman times the mask which actors used on the stage to hold infront of their face (like the mask of a king, of a soldier, of a saint etc) while performing a role.

To become depersonalized is something positive! It means: to lose his mask which hides & protects us in everyday life. It means: to become an individual.

That’s what I ment when I said one have to be very brave in this work. Inevitably a spiritual student have to make this experience and have to go through & over this step of development.

The risk of getting nuts is never far away when somebody is trying develop own being without the help of a school or friend. This is the reason why monasteries do exist.

Even with a spiritual school one easily can lose the line and become disfunctional at normal life. Very easy!

That’s the reason why the most people instinctivly avoids to go deeper on a psychological scale.

Like Gurdieff said, a student of the Fourth way can on any moment becomes obscured & weak so he have to leave the work. And at most cases this person will become weaker after dropping out of the Work compared when entering the Work.

Therefore I said, I can’t recommend this spiritual way to anybody. Because there is definately no guarantee for happy success.
Gurdieff said, one have to swim like a trout against the sream of a river. Becoming tired of this sort of effort means mostly to find oneself spirituall homeless and psycholcically desordered.

Dear John, don’t give up! Prey for help of Influence C.
FoF provides the knowledge, but they don’t provides being.
Creation of being goes only trough the transformation of suffering.

Robert Burton said once: The FoF brings you to the source. But drinking & digesting must everbody alone.

76. Ames Gilbert - November 8, 2016

Hey Nino,
Now you’ve got some attention, and assuming you want to engage in further conversation, please answer some questions.
Do you have a conscience? Do you value the development of conscience? Do you think Robert Earl Burton has an operating conscience?
It certainly seems to me that you think that the ends justifies the means… Would you agree?

What do you suppose the ends are? What awaits you at the top of your ‘spiritual mountain’? How will you know when you have reached it? And what if Burton doesn’t agree with you?
Sounds like an advanced state of spiritual materialism to me, but I’m open to other viewpoints.
You refer to the Fourth Way, with which I am quite familiar as far as it goes, so please feel free to couch your answers in those terms.

Nino, you are making extraordinary claims, actually just a series of extremely bold assertions. What I need is extraordinary proof to back up the extraordinary claims. Care to make a start?

77. WhaleRider - November 8, 2016

@El Niño
“Becoming tired of this sort of effort means mostly to find oneself spirituall homeless and psycholcically desordered.”

IMO, splitting the self into “higher and lower” causes a follower to be at war with themselves; they are homeless, at the mercy of the cult leader’s whims, and disordered, too. That certianly sounds exhausting to me! So I guess we’re fucked one way or another.

Either you self validate as burton does, be your own person, or you pay and wait around for burton to validate you as you slowly morph into something you’re not. For cults there is no middle ground.

Look, I’m sure you have made the best choice you could have made given the circumstances in which you found yourself before you joined the cult. And living in a place without a repressive government would definitely give just about anyone a chance to have more clarity. Good for you!

Moving forward, how can you honestly promote a group with such an admittedly high rate of failure? To be honest, i think you end up being dishonest to a lot of people to serve yourself…as a member.

Hey, we all need a little help from our friends at some point. It’s nice to lend a hand to friends and even strangers, sometimes.

However, do real friends shun each other?

I can understand if you became a heroin addict or you fucked a goat, then maybe your friends might shun you.

But what kind of friends would shun you because you didn’t fuck a goat like they did?

What if you just didn’t want to be in the spiritual goat fucking club?

Would you fuck the goat anyway to be part of the group?

Or would you choose a different fate for yourself?

Keep posting.

Hopefully you still have a sense of humor.

78. Thomas Roy Judd - November 8, 2016

Welcome Nino.I am in agreement with much of what you say.parts of it not so much.We both share a high regard for gurdjieff, but a study of his writings reveals certain egoic flaws that would make blind obedience not necessarily the best coarse of action.perhaps for a period of time to make self observations -discoveries -inquiries and develop a solid foundation. I take some issue when you put burton in same league as gurdjieff. For any insightful reader there are volumes of wisdom to be gleaned from G.From burton all we get is a regurgitation of various sources,while good to hear he usually tweaks that wisdom to keep you submissive to ^the school ^ or influence C^ hence himself.I would suggest reading the early years of this blog to gain a clearer picture of reb.I left fof for financial reasons but still felt robert b was a remarkable man mostly because everybody said he was.I still feel him to be a remarkable man but in the worst way possible. I think if you take the time to acquaint yourself with the 2006 plus a few years of this blog you might not be so quick to defend this remarkable man.Stay the spiritual warrior comrade.

79. Nino Pavković - November 8, 2016

Dear searchers of the truth,

I’m studying the Fourth Way Theory since more than 25 years. Since than my life experience and my insights simply validated the statements from mr. Gurdieff & mr. Ouspensky.

In fact at the beginning one have deeply to verify and accept that one is a living & complicated machine without own will. The machine wants to be happy and healthy and to live forever (or at least as long as possible).
Question: can a machine become conscious of itself? Google works hard on it. But till now, not.

So the aim of the Fourth Way is clear: gaining individuality.

Question: how to gain individuality? And what does it means?

Obviously, if it is true that we in our current issue arn’t a comlete “man without quotationmarks” (Gurdieff), we have to shift from being a intelligent machine to becoming something new.

How to become a New man (Number 5)? And how to recognize a man Nr. 5? Is the behaviour of a man Nr. 5 always pleasant & kind to others?
Answer: not always, but preferably. It must be like that. At least the behaivor of a psychologically developed person have to be neutral.

Folks, don’t let anybody to fool yourself! If one gives up his horse sense you are lost in this world.
A man nr. 5 isn’t 24 hours per day a man nr. 5!

If we are present, we are a man Nr. 5 because we rest in the Third state of mind!
If we are not, than we are in psychological sleep of Second sate of mind, hence a living machine.

Can anybody commit sexual abuse in Third state of mind?
Definately not! Never ever!

You definately can’t hurt a person or an animal intentionally while being in state of meditation (Third state)!

At same time it exists something what is called in the Fourth Way “Mechanical goodness”. Being a sweet person don’t means one is conscious.
Such people are always under risk to be exploited by the egoism of others. Mechanical goodness goes together regularly with naivity. Interestingly the companions of people with this sort of feature are mostly not under the influence of mechanical goodness. They attact rather charecters which exploits them. A sadist is somebody who pleases a masochist. Both are in sleep.

The FoF is the capitol of naivite! And the capitol of predators.
They need each other in reverse.

At same time the FoF offers the way out! I have proved that.

A student don’t need to live at Apollo or to deal with Robert Burton & with the group of people around him to have access to real spiritual knowledge.
Some students feels attracted to classical balet, some not.
Some are gay, some not. Some are serious searchers of the truth, some not.
One shouldn’t expect too much from outside, from others, from a school.
If you find two real friends among 500 students, that’s great for me and I’m thankful for that.

The entire idea of spiritual development is: how to shift from Second State to Third state.
It can occur within 15 seconds! (With the mercy of C Influence).
At Second State we are under much more psychological laws & limitations than while being in Third state, regardless what you do.

If a student (person) is in Third state, he isn’t anymore a machine.

Unfortunately, for me the Third state isn’t a permanent state. I got it, I lose it, now I’m real, some minutes later Nino is a speaking machine. It’s a permanent battle without any guarentee of permanent success.

This I ment when said it is like a permanent mountain climbing.
One should not judge oneself and one should not judge anybody, including the nasty old man Robert Burton (my teacher!).
Because this judgement prevents us from reaching a higher state of mind, called the Third state. One simply can’t start a meditation from a position of yammering and blaming others, regardless you are totally right.

The energy of of being present is neutral. The energy of love & friendship is neutral. Thruth is neutral.
Even Bill Gates can’t buy a Third state!
This is a clear evidence that truth, friendship & love arn’t connected to material life.
Regardless you are young or old, male or female, beautiful or ugly, rich or poor, republican or democrat, fat or slim… you have to do the same effort if you want reach the Third state. Isn’t that an trait of ultimative justice?

Interestingly, if one tries to combat own limitations (in the system called the “Lower Self”), there is very little chance to win this battle.
All the work starts with acceptance of the here and now.
There is simply no other starting point for a intentional spiritual development. Otherwise the learning goes by traansformation of life crises.

Everybody can ask himself: is Donald Trump a role model? Or is Hillary Clinton a role model? Is Robert Burton a role model?

Don’t look for a role model outside of yourself!

The great Buddha had said once: A spiritual worrior don’t have outside enemies, just internal ones.

80. John Harmer - November 9, 2016

#79 Nino Pavkovic, in your last post you have slipped into a mode that we can all recognise, which is preaching to others as if you have the answer. We can recognise it, because we used to do it, and it has a very definite flavour. The “true believer” flavour. So I get a sense that nothing I say will in any way deflect you from your current sincerely held spiritual quest. However I can share the thing that cracked my shell after 10 years of sincere true believer time in the FoF. A student visited our local centre who had been one of the early men that Burton preyed upon. Up until then I had justified the stories I had heard about sexual goings on, as part of some loving arrangements that Burton had with his students, unusual but not criminal was my way of living with it. But this student explained that once he had been seduced he was trapped as the sex toy of Burton for years, unable to tell any of the “older” students what was going on, as they simply would not have believed him – this was the 1970s. I suddenly felt the crushing horror of being day after day required to give blow jobs to a fat, over perfumed, unpleasant older man’s body, and being unable to escape the situation. Burton had him in thrall, his conscious being status and hegemony over the rest of the students allowed him to express the most vile and poisonous form of negativity imaginable on this young man, who later left the school and has rebuilt his life. That showed me that the problem with the FoF was precisely Burton. I have subsequently left the fourth way behind as a philosophy of life, but I know that not all who leave the FoF will do that. But think carefully about whether it is good for your spiritual work to be aiding and abetting a man whose idea of fun is to force homosexual acts on heterosexual young men.

81. Nino Pavković - November 9, 2016

John Harmer, for me isn’t Robert Burton the reason why I stay or leave the FOF. For an european student it is quite difficult even to have a access to him. Once upon a time I searched for a Fourth Way school at Germany I met FOF students near Frankfurt which wasn’t homosexual at all. The issue was the teaching, how to combat psychological sleep.
What occurs at Apollo at Calofornia I just heard from others, second hand news. At no moment I ever advocated the nasty & ugly sex abuse at USA.
95 % of all FoF students arn’t gay oriented, as I can assess.
The russian (preferabley) boy-toy-students of Robert Burton knows what is the payment for them when they accept the invitation from Russia to Apollo to become part of the Burton boy group. Most of them a gay by themselves and are glad to escape Russia where the gay community is under persecution. For most of them California & FoF & Robert Burton are a sort of release compared what they did have had at home.
I personally know a romanian student (young men in the twenties) who moved from Europe to California. After a meeting he was asked to join Robert Burton at his private area. At that occasion he was invited to participate at a private orgy – and he said: no thanks. And what happens: nothing negative for him. He continiued being a normal regular student at all. Same experience told me an italian and an slovenian student. Just say no.
But the problem is that Robert Burton victims lived in the illusion that they can profit spiritually by partaking in orgies. That’s really stupid.

Robert Burton is now 76 years old. As I know, he have since many years the same partner and his age made him being much less interested in sex.

On the other hand: why a spiritual teacher have to declare what he is doing in his bedroom? Why should anybody declare how he is living out his sexuality? Do you really think that at the gay community at San Francisco or New York the sex practices differ much of them how Robert Burton lives?
Because RB is a public person everybody can google what he is doing behind his curtains. I don’t think at all that the sex abuse would be less if the teacher would be heterosexual oriented and girls & women would be involved.

If somebody thinks that Robert Burton is the worst person at entire history of spiritual teachings, he is completly wrong. Read the biography of Georg I. Gurdieff and those of his disciples which lived with him together.

In the western collective sense there exists the perception that a spiritual teacher have to be a very good & sweet person, a sort of like Santa Claus or what we imagine Jesus Christ was.

In fact the figure of Santa Claus was an invention of the Coca Cola company some 90 years ago and Jesus Christ was crucified by the crowd. Buddha was poisened. What happend with Plato, with Socrat, with Pythagoras and the Gnosis? How was the treatment of the Free Masons in the past and how was the treetment of the real Sufis at the past and nowadays?

Whitout wanting at any moment to approve the behaivour of anybody who commits violence against anybody and against any animal, my statements about spiritual development are true.
If anybody wants to practice meditation he have first of all leave the idea of past & future. The only real life occurs here and now.

My sins from yesterday and Robert Burton’s sins from yesterday don’t exists in realety anymore. They only do exist in our brain as a remembrance. Can we change the past? Not at all. Can we change the future? We don’t know what the future is and will bring to us.
My job is to make efforts to arrive in the moment, to give up illusions, not to identify with any story and not to attach to anybody. This is the very old message of any spiritual teaching.

The FoF definately isn’t appropriate for everybody. I can dream of a nice teacher who gives lots of attention to me (a 55 y. old 250 pounds heavy “bear” from Bosnia) because I’m such a good & sensitive & emotional student. Or take what it is good at the FoF and leave what is a horror mess. Life span is limited, time is priceless.

I would much more prefer to have a Fourth Way school located at Europe instead of California, what is far as Japan or Australia seen from my point of view. For USA I need a visa und lots of means to arrive there. But I can’t see at Europe any functioning Fourth Way spiritual school. Many groups and remarkable aliens: yes.

A spiritual school is by far not the same like a group. The pressure on a student to give up identifications is at a school much bigger than at a group. But the risk to end up in a weird cult is even much bigger. It’s a spiritual mountain climbing where one have to be trustful and careful at the same time. Reaching the top means to become a man without quotationmarks, an individual with own will, somebody who can intentionally shift from Second to Third state.

Dear John, if you don’t agree at all with the FoF & RB, engage yourself at another real spiritual school. But stop the FoF bashing, because of own interest. To consume negative informations via Internet & sharing negative second hand informations is killing of your own priceless life energy & time. Gossip isn’t the way out of imagination.

Maybe better I leave this blog because now I see that words arn’t an appropriate transmitter of spiritual messages. In times of Internet everybody can easily have access to any information.

It’s still true what once the great spiritual master George I. Gurdieff said:

“Try to understand what I am saying: everything is dependent of everything else, everything is connected, nothing is separate. Therefore everything is going in the only way it can go. If people were different, everything would be different. They are what they are, so everything is what it is.”

If he would be still alive, I would be his student. Because RB is still alive, I am his student. If I would find a better Fourth Way school I would same day leave the FoF.

82. Golden Veil - November 9, 2016

81. Nino Pavković – November 9, 2016

“Do you really think that at the gay community at San Francisco or New York the sex practices differ much of them how Robert Burton lives?”

Nino, your naivety astounds me.

And as for this,

“But stop the FoF bashing, because of own interest. To consume negative informations via Internet & sharing negative second hand informations is killing of your own priceless life energy & time. Gossip isn’t the way out of imagination.”

I consider writing on this blog a way to serve. I seek to alert seekers. The Fellowship of Friends is a sham spiritual school. Enjoy the Kool-aid, Nino.

83. ion - November 9, 2016

Golden Veil

I do not know how Nino Pavkovic thinks he can work with this ‘magical thinking’ that emits from his mouth and is echoed by his anus. This is the kind of useless ‘wordiness’ that no one (inside or outside the FOF) needs to hear.

“A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself.”

– Joseph Campbell –

84. ion - November 9, 2016

How does Nino solve the slightest OF HIS OWN PROBLEMS? Where to mail his letters, for instance?

85. Thomas Roy Judd - November 9, 2016

Comrade Nino,I understand your reasons for staying in the school and defending the fof .As a school or group or whatever you call it ,it can be a rare and wonderful thing for a sly seeker.But your defence of rburton makes no sense to me unless you are hoping it will somehow draw his favor and earn you a ticket to America, for that I would tip my hat to you.Although in your defence of rburton you use a man #5 excuse for him.Are you not aware that he is a fully developed man #8.The brightest light in 2,000 years.As such he is fully aware of his actions and the consequences there of for others.So either he isn’t what he thinks he and misguided others believe or just don’t give a damn,doesn’t fit any sane description of a higher # man.

86. WhaleRider - November 10, 2016

Are there successful narcissistic sociopaths in the world?

Yes there are, and we just elected one.

87. ion - November 10, 2016

86 WhaleRider

I assume you mean Trumpy? Yes, is the answer to your question.

I feel what makes an Idealist with Self Esteem different from these is, indeed, a statement from Burton…..

(“Can you) be the words?” Otherwise it is froo-froo words for their own sake – and a headlong dash to disaster.

88. Nino Pavković - November 10, 2016

Dear blogger,
RB is a quite similar version of person like your new president DT. You might think about clearing out the big “cult” called Amerca.
Come to Europe & let us open a new school without perversions!

89. ion - November 11, 2016

Way off the wall, if we always think of ourselves – if we always think of how we may ‘get an inner glow’ by pleasing Burton. For me, this article talks to the ‘real core of our lives’…..

View story at Medium.com

“It always seems impossible until it’s done.” 
― Nelson Mandela –

90. ton2u - November 11, 2016

@ 86 Whalerider

Why is the narcissistic con-man successful ?

“Against the prevailing beliefs and hubristic assumptions, Babiak found that psychopaths were readily accepted into the management ranks of prominent companies, and were even experiencing career success. Their extreme narcissism was apparently mistaken as a “positive leadership trait”, and the murky morality and internal chaos typical of the mergers, acquisitions, and takeover environment seemed perfect for their type. Not only would they do well under the pressure – not having the ability to feel fear or stress – the potential personal rewards were too great to refuse, for the business and the psychopath. As Babiak put it, “the lack of specific knowledge about what constitutes psychopathic manipulation and deceit among businesspeople was the corporate con’s key to success.”2 Ironically, the very traits sought by corporations and other powerful entities are often the ones that do bring about their inevitable demise (witness the fall of Bernie Madoff, Enron, Nazism). And they are the traits we have been conditioned to see as ideal. For example, through the “rose-colored glasses” of those who do not know better, conning and manipulative become “persuasive” and “influential”; coldhearted behavior and lack of remorse become “action oriented” and the “ability to make hard decisions”; fearless and impulsive become “courageous” and “high-energy”; lack of emotions becomes “strong” and “controls emotions”



91. WhaleRider - November 11, 2016

I remember an example in the last presidential debate of how someone on the sociopathic/psychopathic spectrum responds to criticism.

At one point Hillary challenged trump on the loopholes he exploited to avoid paying income tax.

trump’s knee-jerk counterattack was, “why didn’t you close those loopholes while you were a senator?”

…insinuating that it was not his fault but hers that he couldn’t control his impulses to game the system.

Also trump claims that he “doesn’t know what happens” when he sees a beautiful woman, he just wants to “start kissing them”, without the woman’s consent, again as though it was the woman’s fault, not his.

No empathy, no conscience.

Psychopaths need others to set limits for them; they may be expert at controlling others, but they have great difficulty controlling themselves, as evidenced by burton’s insatiable need to suck cock and buy cufflinks.

This is the same defense FOF cult followers and some ex-followers make against accusations of cult fraud and exploitation: “it is not burton’s fault that people are stupid”, which is exactly the grey area in which predatory psychopaths dwell and exploit.

Yes, victims have to take responsibility for themselves and their mistakes…but that doesn’t ethically sanction predatory behavior in the interest of educating the young and naive.

I could just imagine if burton came clean and was held accountable by his followers for all the suffering and abuse he has foisted upon them to feed his own self-aggrandizement…and then him saying, “well, dear, if for so many years you thought what I was doing was wrong, why didn’t you do something to stop me?”

It is up to cult survivors to expose the fraud.

Thank you to all who have had the courage to speak out and continue to contribute to the counter narrative.

92. ion - November 12, 2016

90 ton2u/91 WhaleRider

The both of you talked out strongly about the influence of corporate structures and the attraction to them by psychopaths. I think we all have to realize that the FOF is a corporate structure. Take the facts…..

A ‘teacher’ at the head of the structure who can do what he wants, with or without excuses..

An ‘inner circle’ designed to ‘lick Burton’s ass’, while picking the perks of their own status in the group.

An ‘outer circle’ which parades around thinking looking good will raise them higher in the echelons of power in the group.

None of these three above has anything to do with truth or virtuous conduct – in fact it is the opposite. And if ‘wedding cake decor’ and beautiful statues are meaningful to this group,,,well…lost at sea.

93. ion - November 13, 2016

Just knowing where strength and endurance comes from…..

View story at Medium.com

94. ion - November 14, 2016

Individualism, Narcissism, and psychopathy in modern society

by Lee Bernard Hughes

The rise of the culture of individualism has been blamed for the breakdown of the family unit in the Western world over the last forty years. This is nothing new, and there have been many studies done over the years on the subject. I don’t want to go over the same ground; instead, I am more interested in the psychological grounding of this trend, and the psychological implications it has had on society, that we can see all around us, under the surface.

I said that individualism has caused the breakdown of the family, but Western society’s change began in the “baby boom” generation after the Second World War. That came about at the same time as unprecedented levels of rising prosperity in Western society, allowing children in the West to experience previously-unknown levels of parental attention. By the sixties, this prosperity created a greater emphasis on “self-improvement” and “individual achievement” in children, resulting in a greater degree of people’s self-awareness generally. This culture of self-expression and exploration, and a greater tolerance of diversity of thought therefore created an unprecedented level of narcissism in children growing up in this social environment.
As long as this occurred at the same time as a healthy economy, this was not overtly harmful to society. The social culture of the West was radically different by the end of the sixties than what existed ten years previously, and was a direct result of both rising prosperity and rising self-awareness in Western society.
But by the seventies, the economy had become unstable, and one half of the equation (improving social conditions and rising self-awareness) had been destroyed. The effect on society was almost immediate: a culture of rising self-awareness had now grown to one of increasing narcissism, but in an unstable socio-economic climate. The collective psychology of Western society now became more dysfunctional, as an increasingly narcissistic society was unable to properly deal with a change in economic circumstances. The result was more family breakdown, and more crime. Thus children born of narcissistic parents (such as those in the social conditions of the “baby boom” generation) are even more likely to be narcissistic, if not outright psychopathic, when you combine narcissistic parenting with an unstable social environment.

95. ion - November 15, 2016

Whilst trying to stay with a post a day (maximum) I find it curious that Burton is, again, ordering out ‘big guns’ for meetings to help FOF ‘students’ deal with the ‘play of crime’ by Asaf…..


96. Ames Gilbert - November 15, 2016

I posted this list of questions in 2007. In view of Asaf’s continuing efforts to establish himself as a teacher, not to mention the dozens of new Esoteric Startups™ that spring up every year, I think that such questions are still relevant!
I’d forgotten about these and lost the list long ago, so thanks to Tim for recording them over in his blog, the invaluable robertearlburton.blogspot.com and saving me from doing it all over again! Note: I’ve just now added a few extra questions…
Dear all,
The Fellowship of Friends “come–on” (#23-144, or thereabouts) stimulates me to offer a list of questions that a prospective student should ask, in one form or another, before joining. I started this list because a friend who has been through the Fellowship experience joined another 4th Way group (started by an ex–FoF student!) and had some second thoughts, and asked for input.

I’d say that any prospective student owes it to his or her self to not only get answers (and write them down, in detail, for future reference), but to have someone less partial go over the answers with them. Ideally, some one who joined would also have a “buddy” to check in with after agreed periods of time to see if pre–stated aims and directions were being adhered to, and in general provide a ‘reality check’ and grounding. Ideally!

This list can surely be improved, so I put it out there as a group project…

Some questions to ask before making a commitment to a ‘spiritual teacher’ or ‘teaching’—

Mechanics and set–up of group/school:

• When and what was your last paying job?
• Do you rely completely or partially on the contributions of your students to pay your personal expenses?
• How are payments structured?
• Is the group organized legally as a non–profit or church for IRS purposes?
• How transparent is the accounting?
• What power does any board hold?
• Do you serve at the pleasure of the board?
• Exactly what degree of independence does the board have?
• Please give examples of when the board effectively countered your decisions?
• Are board meetings open to students, or do students have access to minutes of board meetings?
• If there is no board, what steps have you taken so students can hold you accountable for your actions, including financial decisions?

Relationship with teacher:
• How do you measure students’ abilities beforehand to undertake difficult work?
• What methods, in detail, do you use to prevent students entering a dependent role?
• How do you prevent infatuation?
• How do you deal with fear?
• How do you prevent ‘spiritual materialism’ developing in ‘your’ students?
• Do you feel invested in the success or failure of your students?
• What do you do with failures?
• What value do you place on the idea and practice of personal verification?
• Are your students required to give up their will to you, as their teacher? If so, is this permanent or for a set or limited period of time?

Sex energy:
• Are you married?
• Do you claim celibacy?
• Do you undertake to never have sexual relations with your students?
• Please give examples of tasks concerning sex energy.
• Describe how you presently channel/use sex energy, and will you describe your history in that regard?

• Do you give out generalized/group exercises?
• Are any exercises individualized?
• What are the criteria for making such exercise ‘individual’?
• Do you fully explain the purpose of the exercises beforehand?
• Do you have helpers, and if so, what are their qualifications, and are they permitted to set exercises themselves?
• Are there rules or codes of behavior that must be followed by school members? If so, what are they and how are ‘infractions’ handled?
• Is there any appeal from your decisions, and if so, how is this handled?
• Do you and your students work with the Fourth Way idea of Good Householder, and if so, what forms does this work take?

Dynamics of student body/school/group:
• Is there a limit to the number of students you are willing to work with?
• Is there a hierarchy?
• If so, what is its basis?
• What steps do you take or intend to take to prevent the needs of the organization overtaking the needs of the students with time?
• Are you prepared to dissolve the organization if this happen?

Measurement of progress:
• How do you test for the necessary ‘normalcy’ required of prospective 4th Way students?
• What do you do if mental illness manifests nevertheless?
• How do you describe the nature of the risks necessary to face before graduation?
• What criteria do you and the student use to measure progress?
• How do you empower students or teach them to take back/discover their own power?
• How do you define conscience?
• What is the use of conscience?
• What are your teachings regarding conscience?
• How do you separate conscience from subjective morality?
• At what point is there graduation?
• What happens to graduates?

On asking questions:
• Will there ever be any questions on any subject that are unsafe, unpalatable, or otherwise objectionable if asked in good faith?
• Will you take personal questions, that is, questions about your path, your conduct, your history?
• Do you make contracts with your students, specifying goals, payments, efforts, limits, and results, concerning the temporary giving up of will to the teacher apparently requested of 4th Way students, and what steps are taken to ensure that this is indeed temporary and results/goal driven?
• Do you in any way put pressure on students to limit their contacts with non-students, family?
• What are your policies regarding talking about the work, exercises, meetings, experiences with the teacher, with non-students?
• With ex–students?

Group work:
• Do you organize group projects?
• Do you join in them yourself?
• Do you join students in experiments whose outcome you do not know (take risks)?
• What is the primary objective/aim of your school?
• What are secondary objectives/aims of your school?

Your work:
• Do you believe the ends justifies the means? Regarding awakening?
• Do you have a sense of humor?
• Do you encourage a sense of humor in your students?
• Do you regard yourself as still being on a journey yourself, or do you regard yourself as in any way ‘completed’?
• Do you believe that you can learn from students or situations as they present themselves?
• Do you claim to be conscious or enlightened and, if so, do you classify yourself (per the Fourth Way tradition) as a man #4, 5, 6, 7 or 8?
• Do you think the idea of lineage and direct transmission of knowledge important?
• Who are/were your teachers and what is their lineage in relation to the Fourth Way or other schools of awakening?
• Why did you decide to become a spiritual teacher?
• What are your personal goals/aims as a spiritual teacher?

Other sources, inspirations, teachings:
• Apart from your own publications, do you use or recommend other 4th Way books?
• Those by Gurdjieff? Ouspensky? Bennett? Orage? Nicol? Others?
• How do you feel about other teachers, other teachings, other traditions?
• Do you ‘mix and match’, and if so, what are your criteria?
• Do you require exclusivity? That is, can I also study/meet with other teachers/traditions while studying with you?
• Do you make specific claims about your ‘level of being’?
• Do you claim powers?
• What levels of obedience do you require (tasks, suggestions, orders, etc.)?
• Does your school have a ‘task’ or aim beyond teaching paths to increased consciousness of students?
• Do you consider your school to be a ‘Fourth Way’ school?

Access to students or graduates:
• Are there students available who I can talk to, over a period of time, so I can judge their degree of dependence or infatuation or fear myself?
• Who can (voluntarily, of course) speak something of results gained, states attained, exercises and tasks they have undertaken, and results gained—or are they asked to withhold this kind of information? I’d also be looking for differences between ‘resident’ and ‘non-resident’ students, including, if possible, results.
• Do you have any objections to me asking the questions below of current students?
• What do you think of these questions?
• If you were asking questions of a teacher or students, what would they be?

Relationship to students who have left:
• Do you maintain meaningful contact with any ‘graduates’ of your school?
• What is your policy regarding the relationship between current and former students?
• If there are restrictions, what is your policy if those rules are broken?

• What methods, in detail, do you use to prevent becoming dependent on the teacher?
• How do you recognize and prevent infatuation?
• How do you recognize and deal with fear in the student–teacher relationship?
• What limits, if any, do you place on what the teacher asks you to do in order to awaken?
• Do you think that you have an operating conscience?
• Do you think that conscience can be developed?
• Do you believe the ends justifies the means? Regarding awakening?
• Are you willing to act on your conscience if it tells you that the teacher is wrong, or is setting you wrong tasks?
• Are you willing to leave the school if your conscience says you should or must?
• Do you think you will be in this school for the rest of your life?
• If not, how long is the most you will stay?
• How do you think you will recognize that you are ready to graduate?
• If you believe that you are ready to graduate, will you act on that, or wait for the recognition or permission of the teacher?
• What methods do you use to prevent becoming dependent on the group?
• Would you take a paid position with the group?
• If so, what precautions do you or would you put in place to prevent you becoming dependent on this position a) psychologically, and b) materially?
• Do you have a position of authority within the group? If so, please describe your role and its importance within the organization.
• If not, would you take a position of power/responsibility with the group?
• If so, what precautions do you or would you take to avoid becoming corrupted by the power?
• How long would you hold such a position?
• On what basis would you or do you hold or transmit authority within the group?
• Please describe the chain of authority between the teacher and you.
• How do you view the legitimacy of each person in authority of those ‘below’ the teacher and ‘above’ you?
• What do you think of these questions I’m asking right now?
• If you were asking questions of your teacher or students, what would they be?

…a lot of questions to be sure, but you are putting your time, money, effort, body and even your life on the line, so why not try to make the right decision? You cannot have too much information in these circumstances.

From someone who’s Been There and Done That,

97. Ames Gilbert - November 15, 2016

Now that Asaf Braverman has made the choice to leave the Fellowship of Friends, Burton is bringing out the heavy artillery, Girard Haven and Dorian Mattei, to defend his self–image and his fantasy at all costs. I don’t have any words by Dorian to quote, no–one so far has found any actually worthwhile to record and share with us, but we surely have a surfeit of words from the Official Hagiographer™, Girard Haven, to choose from. I posted these thoughts in 2008; they give a flavor of the wisdom Girard is no doubt presently passing on to the followers.
So, Nino Pavković, behold one of the fruits of Robert Earl Burton!
Do you really want to degrade yourself to the level of geniuses like this, who learned everything they believe from this miserable hasnamuss?

Elena recently asked for the quote from Girard Haven’s book, “Creating a Soul”, page 576. Here it is; it is followed by some commentary by me!

In particular, if he [Robert Earl Burton] knows what he is doing and we don’t, we have no basis for judging or doubting him. Instead, we simply have to trust him, as a child trusts his parents, or dog trusts its master. If he asks us to do things which seem to have no connection to awakening–or even to be ‘wrong’–we have no choice but to do them anyway.

Girard spends 575 pages leading up to the first “if”, and obviously is preparing the reader to form the correct conclusion—“in this school, there is no question of ‘if’!

Girard Haven has put himself in a very tight corner, hasn’t he? So when Burton dispenses wisdom such as these words passed on via Peter Bishop in 1994,

Conscience is a collection of subjective ‘I’s. If a student accumulates too much material there, he should leave the school

, the proper response is, redouble efforts to ignore, bypass or squash conscience. Banish those inconvenient truths! Efforts, more efforts, super–efforts, whole lifetimes of efforts, dig the hole deeper, deeper, maybe heaven is in China!

So, what is wrong with the following picture?

An ‘intellectually–centered’ ‘man’ called Girard Haven beats his body (a beautiful Gift of Gifts, whose misfortune is to ‘belong’ to an unloving tyrant) to rags, because that is easier than trying to critically examine what he is being told. This adored, admired, almost worshipped ‘conscious’ being, the fruit of 38 years of existence by the Fellowship of Friends, prostrates his Self to another, who claims he is the intermediary between Girard and what he most desires. Or, rather, believes that he desires.

This ‘great intellectual’ aspires to elevate his own being, in his own words, to the level of a dog, so debased is his reasoning, his arc towards individuation, his trust in his own Self, in his own capacities, his own divine spark. This poor creature would rather torture himself and those around him for months, years and decades on end, than ask himself some hard questions and hear some hard truths, and act on them.

This ‘man’ has never asked himself why he has the capacity to imagine, to create, why he has negative parts of centers, why he has the capacity for simple joy or pleasure; rather, he only curses all these as the equivalent of snares, traps, ‘tools of the devil’.

This ‘man’, when confronted with his shadow, the dark parts within him, rather than meet this most essential part of himself, evades the responsibility and the opportunity by trying to drown the messages in a sea of self–inflicted pain and misery.

This ‘man’ with the ‘highly–trained intellect’, an example to so many, has actually trained himself to seek the less lively, the more static, the more predictable, the more death–like, in preference to the joy, the adventure, the necessary accompanying risks, contrasts, uncertainty and even hazard, of life on its own terms.

It seems to me that this is the life and being of the most conditioned and beaten, abject slave, far worse than that of the dog implied in the analogy his ‘great intellect’ has offered up. In fact, Girard debases the dog, because firstly, it never had the potential he had, and secondly, because in contrast to him, the average dog lives the life of a dog fully and completely and joyfully and presently with every particle of it’s being, and so is completely fulfilled.

Girard’s motto seems to be, “It is easier to make more efforts than to question and verify what Burton tells me”.
Ironic, because though his reputation is for making those splendid efforts, his actions actually are a result of extreme laziness and cowardice. The tragedy is compounded when the subject of the efforts rises from core misunderstandings or dogma. And the reputedly ‘great intellect’ has been subsumed to the service of justification and hagiography of a charlatan, rather than exploration and making connections, or even questioning the results of the kinds of efforts he is making.
Another talent buried in the ground, with consequences the parable clearly points out.

98. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 15, 2016

Nearly everything in the realm of human activity and thought exists in a perpetual state of deranged equilibrium. Whenever anyone tries to fix things, whenever anyone tries to influence things for the better, it simply accentuates and tips one psychopathic side of the scale or the other.

99. Tim Campion - November 16, 2016

52. Ames,

Buried deep within these WordPress pages is the little-known Fellowship of Friends SketchBook. Revealed therein is the real truth about the Seven Conscious Beings produced by Robert Burton’s Fellowship of Friends. In recognizing the consciousness of others, “william,” who wrote the following, demonstrated his own conscious being status (because, as we all know, it’s a universal law that the lower cannot see the higher.) Below, I’ve combined william’s four posts into a single post.

There were four people I knew who had become conscious. They were all very close to the same age, early to mid twenties. All this occurred in the middle to late 70’s. Those four people were the inner circle of the school. The only ones who knew they were in the circle were themselves and the teacher. All the other fellow students assumed that the inner circle was comprised of people who sat at the front of the meetings with Robert. Not so. Ironically, the LAST person to wake up in the four was the only one who ever sat at the front with Robert, on several occasions.

I’d like to mention something else, now that I have just read through every single missive on this site. Someone remarked that no one ever left the fellowship for good reasons, just bad. That’s not correct. I left for good reasons. I left in 79, after having been in the school for 5 years. This wasn’t a snap decision, it was something I realized was being communicated to me. It was time for me to work on my own. I wasn’t really crazy about leaving my real friends. And I only heard about the alleged change in Robert many years later. And it made absolutely ZERO sense to me. The only way I can reconcile it is to realize that Robert was intentionally disbanding the school because his work was complete. What he put up in it’s place was so transparently a cliche of the eventual demise of all cults that I assumed it was significant. Some kind of fraud was being played out, to make him look like a predator, the purpose of which I probably will never know. But everything I’ve been reading about him for the last 10 years is simply NOT the person I knew. I witnessed magic almost EVERY DAY for five long years. And I intuitively knew that because it started out hidden, it had to remain hidden.

I knew many of the people mentioned. I haven’t thought of Richard, the hairdresser for years. A rather aloof saturn, in his way. I didn’t know at the time he was gay, but there was an odd thing he said once, in a casual moment, that made me realize that there was something psychologically off with him.

Robert was a joy to be around in those days. To hear that he is virtually inaccessible …well, for anyone else, I would think that his alleged behavior indicated an advanced stage of syphilis that was slowly destroying his brain. But personally, I think it’s all some act. At the same time, I can’t imagine why any of these people dissing him would lie. There’s no profit in it whatsoever.

I remember Girard from back then too. He was ALWAYS a self deluded individual. We would often laugh at him, secretly, behind our hands. Nevertheless, he was a nice enough fellow in his own way. Just a clueless true believer, in the Eric Hoffer sense. And one of the four people in the real inner circle was in fact a woman.

I just remembered something else. Suppose these alleged sexual tryst’s did take place. If I had been asked, I would have simply declined. We once had an exercise to break a glass in a restaurant to work on inner considering. That was each student’s task. But I simply refused to do that. So WHAT that the teacher asked us to do it? It wasn’t HIS property. What, I’m supposed to willfully just destroy someone’s personal possessions because someone tells me to? I don’t care if he was the teacher. That had nothing to do with the teaching. My work on inner considering was about ME going against the masses of the fellowship and doing what I already KNEW was right.

Robert once asked me to call out to someone who was leaving the house. I suppose he didn’t want to shout himself. But I couldn’t DO IT! Shouting was no longer something I did. Instead, I ran after the person and caught up with him and told him the teacher wanted to speak to him. Nothing “bad” ever happened to me. Why should it?

Any bad experiences I had in the school always came from student robots, people trying to whip me into line. Which I simply refused to do because I was there for me, not them. Most of these robots had dead eyes. Especially that Linda character. Good Lord. When that place in San Francisco burned to the ground, I took it as an omen for her, since her last name was the same as the store. She was such a fraud. And she had the eyes of a swine.

For reasons that surpass understanding, my earlier comment on the real inner circle of the school, which existed in the mid to late 70’s only, has been removed. I’m not sure why. But I’ll reiterate. There were four such people, one of whom was a woman. Of the four, only one of them ever sat at the front during large meetings. The other three NEVER did. And NONE of the regulars who sat at the front were ever part of the inner circle. The inner circle is something one gets into because of SOMETHING THEY KNOW that no one else knows. And once you know this something, it’s absolutely transparent to you who else also knows it. Nothing needs to be said at all. One look and it’s quite apparent.

Thus, with at least six of the seven conscious beings accounted for prior to 1980, the status of all those others – Donald, Miles, Girard, James, Asaf, Dorian, Mihai, and Sasha – is highly suspect. So, who was the seventh Man (or Woman!) #5?

100. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 16, 2016

So, who was the seventh Man (or Woman!) #5?

Eric Nightingale, who never sat at the head a meeting either.

101. ion - November 16, 2016

The post by Ames and that by Tim solidified ‘bouncing questions’ that had been heralded by the beginning of November. Basically, what is so IMPLICITLY attractive about REB, the man, that has kept him able to have total sway over a cult for45 years, plough in $$$$$$$ of other people’s money, have a ‘totally outrageous’ (infra) sex life and be able to travel (almost) where he likes on the planet?

I have met teachers who have been fond of their students, but never disgraced their position; I have known business owners who would never defraud the Revenue Service and I have known soldiers with principles, who would rather be ‘dismissed mentally incapable’ rather than kill anyone who was not, obviously’ of the enemy.

If taking as a hierarchy…..


and we could go on…..

What emerges is that HIERARCHY is seen as the medium in which the head/narcissist/psychopath ‘wallows in his glory’, this glory reflected in and by his enablers. Everyone in that cult ‘true to the aim’ is scavengingly selfish , has not learned to ‘stand on their own two feet in life’ (other than be just another corporate bully) and the whole thing is rotten to the core.

Whatever direction Asaf may take (sink or swim?) REB will continue to eject ‘pretenders to the throne’. For Burton it will be…..

“Maintain the glory, then die”

His exit will be covered on NBC News.

102. ion - November 16, 2016

13.47 … 11/16/2016

Joe Navarro messages me back regarding my statement to him that cults seem to attract people who want to be special…..

“I think you have a good point. There are many people desperate to be loved, to be accepted, and that makes them vulnerable to the
unscrupulous who peddle love when all it is is Narcissistic needs.”

Chat conversation end


103. Ames Gilbert - November 17, 2016

Herewith a bit of free advertising for Asaf Braverman’s online Workshop on November 19th. The blurb states:
“Schools of the fourth way work on two scales: on the scale of an individual, they teach the development of consciousness; on the scale of a community, they teach harnessing that consciousness to a greater undertaking. In this workshop, we will take a forward glance at how Beperiod may grow as an online community and discuss its greater aims as a fourth way school”.

Great! Sign up, pay your $50 per month, and learn from the master. To be fair, the $50 includes (3), count them, three workshops and ‘access to the archives’.

Below the come–on, George Gurdjieff himself, or at least his spokesman, has signed in to give us a flavor of what is to come
“November 15, 2016 at 8:46 am
The fourth way is never without some work of a definite significance, is never without some undertaking around which and in connection with which it can alone exist… Schools of the fourth way exist for the needs of the work which is being carried out in connection with the proposed undertaking. They never exist by themselves as schools for the purpose of education and instruction.”

Asaf Braverman is a very certain fellow, isn’t he? One of the hallmarks of his website, through and through. This flavor of absolute certainty works very well for Burton, why change?

it looks like we can expect some guidance about the Grand Purpose™ of this 21st Century Online School™. Robert Earl Burton told us that the Grand Purpose™ of the Fellowship of Friends was to be the Seed of a New Civilization™, following the extermination of all humans on earth—except for those followers current with their ‘teaching payments’—by mighty angels that can modify the laws of physics and geology.
I don’t suppose that Asaf Braverman can beat that for sheer hubris, but, judging by his own words, he will come up with something grandiose that somehow connects the Schools of the Cave Dwellers™ of 150 centuries ago in a direct line with his own efforts (via his own teacher of 20 years, Robert Earl Burton).

If any readers learn more, do share!

104. brucelevy - November 17, 2016

Many ex-members, who have penetrated the anal sphincter of the school (I’m sorry I meant inner circle…those freudian slips) have gone on to be successful (I mean failed) gurus of their own sociopathic mini-cult. They’ve developed their pathologies by watching the master(bator) at jerk (I mean work)

Those freudian slips…I remembr having dinner in the My Sin room with her royal heinous and I meant to say “Please pass the salt” but it came out “You are a fucking shameful monster who will, no doubt, pay for your crimes one way or the other.”

105. John Harmer - November 18, 2016

#103 How to top Armageddon as a narrative? Tricky. Perhaps a literal ark in a space ship bound for Proxima B. On the basis that for a few thousand people to survive thousands of years in a nuclear powered hollowed out asteroid or two, would require a conscious school. But then the Mutiny on the Bounty shows that sometimes authoritarian and dictatorial leadership can backfire. They don’t need to actually build a space ship of course, just having that as their high aim would allow Braverman to focus his students’ efforts and we know how much Gurdjieffians value “efforts” don’t we? (IMO they are hugely overrated, I prefer the lifestyle of a domestic cat as a role model)

106. ion - November 18, 2016

Scare mongers and making money…..

107. WhaleRider - November 18, 2016

Here’s a Whitman quote you won’t find on a daily card:

“He that spreads a wider breast than mine own proves the width of my own. He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher.”

“Song of Myself”, no. 47, Leaves of Grass

108. ion - November 19, 2016

I thought about Ames’ list of questions, several posts above, and how most of us were ‘launched’ into the FOF by the initial ‘love bombing’ (that is a technical term used about cults) then found our way, either immediately or slowly, into ‘teaching houses’, our skills used and allied to our ‘centers of gravity’. Sooner or later we would visit or move to the ‘headquarters’ (Renaissance/Apollo/Isis)…and by this time we were ‘older students’. We were enmeshed in The Work, the work that was easy to approach, bolstered by The Teaching (and the admiration/love for Our Teacher) and we felt accelerated towards our evolutionary destiny.

Then the ‘creaks and moans’, the cracks’ were starting to appear. I do believe it was not our False “I”, our Lower Selves that were making themselves known. The questioning of our inner and outer dissent at the Huge Barbaric Mess that was the Fellowship of Friends was rising to audible proportions in and around us. Some found the words “I must leave” grew until action forced them out. Others actively questioned the Teacher on his ‘goings-on’ and were ejected.

Either way, out of ‘the school’, unless one was able to use ‘FOF-like clobbering tactics’, it was a hard road home to what one really was. Some have told there stories. Some are living their grace. Others are offering anything real they have found back to society. And we are here to share how that can be done.

109. Ames Gilbert - November 21, 2016

John Harmer (# 105),
It seems to me that it would be almost irresponsible not to speculate!
In this age of acronyms, we could even say we have ‘R2S’, responsibility to speculate.

110. Mick - November 21, 2016

The Story Thus Far:
Suffering from self-delusion & thinking he was an advanced being (more conscious than thou, anyway), Robert Earl Burton eventually established a cult following. He continues to pose as a 4th Way guru in order to extract money from people & to indulge his uncontrollable homosexual desires.

111. ion - November 22, 2016

We have talked about victimizers and victims. We have talked about healers and those needing healing. This is true, in or out of a cult, a family, or social unit, that these things go on. This lady sheds light on problematical situations THAT HAVE BEEN, AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE ADDRESSED…..

“Understanding Victimology”
by Peggy M Tobolowsky
University of North Texas


112. ion - November 24, 2016

Questioning, questioning…..

I thought Ames brought up a very good point. Did we question enough (ask questions) before and as we were to enter THE CULT (for cult it was and is – no school of stimulated thought, nor gradations of consciousness, although we can postulate that expansion of thought into understanding and forward into behavioral definitions of that very understanding will mean that, maybe) – did we question then? As our membership went on in diverse directions, convoluted and, maybe perverted by the money power sex triad, whilst knowing our gnawed Quivering Self was coming under the pressure of these three – what made us continue? And those of us, now free (is it that free?) of The Cult (out, or are some thoughts still in?), do we use things that were found useful or have we ‘wiped the slate clean? These are just some questions, but I believe the questioning should go on…..

Walt Whitman “Leaves of Grass”

“This day before dawn I ascended a hill and look’d at the crowded heaven,
And I said to my spirit When we become the enfolders of those orbs,
and the pleasure and knowledge of every thing in them, shall we
be fill’d and satisfied then?
And my spirit said No, we but level that lift to pass and continue beyond.

You are also asking me questions and I hear you,
I answer that I cannot answer, you must find out for yourself”

113. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 25, 2016

The psychological undercurrent of magical thinking, phase one: The human mind needs to believe that life is fundamentally a happy experience and that ultimately there is a positive point to all these many years, which culminates in an afterlife where there is rumored to exist a reward for one’s faith in ultimate goodness. People need to believe that their subsequent good works, produced in hopes of reaping such a rumored reward, will carry them forward, will carry them higher, in the imagined scheme of what is better and what is worse. For most humans life has to seem positive and rewarding or they simply wilt with depression. The actual biological reason for such metaphysical fantasies is that it encourages people to breed and then diligently raise their young. The population believes there is a positive progression from difficult earthly life to eternal happiness in the hereafter and so want to produce children who will also reap great rewards. As for the overall effectiveness of such a psychological undercurrent, well, the human race is quite on track to smother the entire earth in billions of human bodies.

The psychological undercurrent of magical thinking, phase two: This is where the various cults and religions come into play. Not only is psychological phase one active in the magical thinking machinations of human minds, but for many there is also the factor of the active delusion of metaphysical exclusivity. What sport is there in raising fine superior offspring if they are simply going to meet the same generic reward as everyone else? No. Certain groups of exclusive people must have a much better reward in the afterlife than the common ruffians populating the ordinary highways and byways. For those gifted few who believe in the secret magical doctrine that is completely unknown to the common rabble there is a much more satisfying reward in heaven. There is a much higher quality of fate than is promised to the mere average. Exclusivity, the doctrine of a specially selected ego, is where the real delusional hypnosis comes into play.

Here is the starkness of reality: There is no eternal soul. There is no soul for a housefly, for a flea, for a rat, for a cat, for a pig, a dog, a chicken, a frog or a moose. Just so, there is no soul or afterlife for a human being. When your human brain stops receiving blood from your beating heart and all these crazy thoughts, all these fantastic theories of existence, cease to maintain your delusional reality then you simply cease to exist. Your body simply rots and in time you are forgotten as if you never existed.

Those who believe that their careful avoidance of negativity and pessimism–that their obsession with accepting the externally imposed will of the “present” with unquashable transformational optimism–are all part of an exclusive clique of delusional egos caught in the fallacy, the erroneous conviction, that they are somehow accumulating the magic soul’s invisible fairy dust of glorious eternity. This state of mind actually makes these types less intelligent than ordinary rats, who suffer under no such delusion.

114. Oscar - November 27, 2016

You nailed it. Whitman wrote (speaking of rats and religion):

“I think I could turn and live with animals… They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins; They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God; Not one is dissatisfied—not one is demented with the mania of owning things; Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago…”


I’m less concerned about magical thinking, as you describe it, and more concerned about magical thinking that’s accompanied by fear and superstition. That’s where you can manipulate people and convince them to do things that are harmful to themselves and others. Shame and guilt are big parts of the formula, too. It deteriorates into anger, hatred, and violence.

So, no doubt, as some of us think about our first-hand experiences with religious dogma, and with the delusion and inhumanity that often springs from it, it’s no surprise there might be a trend toward atheism, or at least agnosticism.

I’ve often wondered if Burton is an atheist. I’m guessing many psychopaths are. It frees them to do all sorts of things, just as a lack of conscience would. With no belief in any meaning to this existence other than fulfilling one’s own desires, they have no constraints.

But even if the evidence points to “unto dust you shall return,” there is a bit of magic in all of this. There’s at least some magic in trying to fathom the meaning of two trillion galaxies and counting, as of October 2016.

Still trying to keep my feet on the ground as I look at the stars. Maybe it’s possible to do both.

115. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 27, 2016


“It frees them to do all sorts of things, just as a lack of conscience would. With no belief in any meaning to this existence other than fulfilling one’s own desires, they have no constraints.”

There are plenty of Godly psychopaths and sociopaths. Think about all those witch burners and heretic torturers back in the days of the Inquisition.

116. Oscar - November 27, 2016


Not my intent to insult atheists everywhere by suggesting Burton might be one. He probably isn’t, but who knows. He’s very good at deceiving people. If pretending to believe in things gets him what he wants, he’ll pretend to believe in things.

117. ion - November 28, 2016

It has not exactly been daring of me, but I think you will see the point here (Oscar and Mind Out of Rhyme)…is there a huge stretch between ‘deism’, where a father figure is seen to figure it out for you?(a big lie, this, since human rules of overrule have invented sins and morals – no conscience, which is innate – and a hierarchical pyramidal structure called religion, whereon narcissistic psychopaths can ‘ply their trade’)…and then we have atheism and evolutionists …this, in turn can turn to nihilism, the idea that nothing is to be led to (wherein lies the human striving?) and we can just lull in our self-satisfaction.

Let me interject with facts to make fury upon the two opposites above. We are bone (structure), meat (superstructure), fluid (communication), chemicals (nourishment and ‘sharing’) and finally light (now, we all know that light is intelligence, has infinite possibilities and penetration).

I think I am trying to say that there can be, in the human existence, possibilities upon possibilities and that people will try to ‘sell you eternal life’ by all means and currencies, whereas life, by its very nature, is infinite. We have just not reached purity of thought and being to realize the fact. Some drugs can help with a glimpse, but in the end it is a life spent ‘raising the lightning rod’ as Rodney Collin spoke of, that deserves…and we will know.

118. ton2u - November 28, 2016

ion… your word bring this to mind: “If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his cavern.”
a huxley

119. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 28, 2016

If you want to know reality you need to take drugs?

“Some drugs can help with a glimpse”

Huxley on drugs: http://www.openculture.com/2011/10/aldous_huxleys_lsd_death_trip.html

If you want reality then stay away from drugs. Drugs simply induce psychosis in a mind that is already prone to imbalance, disruption and delusion. If you want reality take strong doses of modern science.

“and finally light (now, we all know that light is intelligence, has infinite possibilities and penetration).”

The human brain is encased in a bone box where no light ever penetrates. Within this box the external world is represented by neuron activity that more or less correctly recreates what is happening in the outside world. When you stab something on your plate with a fork and put it in your mouth it is because your brain, living inside you in the absolute dark, is correctly interpreting electrical/chemical signals sent to it over nerve endings by the eyes and other senses. Your reality is involuntarily created in the dark and is simply an interpretation of the outside world.

You are your mind, which merely imagines it is a creature running around the world responding to images of things illuminated by light. Your mind is the product of an electrochemical biological contraption living in complete darkness that receives nervous-signal translations of the illuminated world around it. If you want to increase your awareness then keep in mind that what you are seeing is actually only an interpretation of what is outside in the world around you.

120. ton2u - November 29, 2016

Pessimists infer that human self awareness is bound up with consciousness of time and this leads to greater suffering than does physical pain. Humans and certain species of animals can contemplate the past and future – foreknowledge of their own eventual fate and this “terror” is present in every moment of life as a reminder of the impermanent nature of existence and the inability to control change. But…philosophical pessimism is only a point of view – there are many other perspectives to consider. In some respects it could behoove one to try to get beyond the “certainty” of baked-in notions… but how to do so ? Considering other points of view is a start. Then again, if a person is so certain, so stuck on a particular point of view, that’s already a problem. The feeling of being trapped in a “bone box where no light can get in” is a reflection of a closed mind… I feel sorry for someone who lives with this condition.


121. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 29, 2016

“The feeling of being trapped in a “bone box where no light can get in” is a reflection of a closed mind…”

Of course fantasy is the only alternative to such a realization and many do choose that. Fantasy always gets those psychotic chemicals flowing, producing an alternative ‘reality’ where the self-important sense of “me” gets to pretend that it will live on forever, usually in an imagined “far better world”. Groups of such psychotics often get together on certain special days of the week and praise the fact that their life is eternal due to their faith.Madness.

Here’s the fact: This is it.

122. WhaleRider - November 29, 2016

Actually, Let’s Not Be Present

“What differentiates humans from animals is exactly this ability to step mentally outside of whatever is happening to us right now, and to assign it context and significance.

(For if one does not in such a cult as the FOF, the cult leader assigns context, significance and most importantly, meaning to events for the follower.)

Our happiness does not come so much from our experiences themselves, but from the stories we tell ourselves that make them matter.

But still, the advice to be more mindful often contains a hefty scoop of moralizing smugness, a kind of “moment-shaming” for the distractible, like a stern teacher scolding us for failing to concentrate in class.

(“Moment-shaming”, AKA photographing.)

The implication is that by neglecting to live in the moment we are ungrateful and unspontaneous, we are wasting our lives, and therefore if we are unhappy, we really have only ourselves to blame.”

(The tendency of children to unconsciously blame themselves rather than confront abusive caregivers upon whom they are dependent is inherant in the father/children framework often used to describe the dependent guru/follower relationship, thus enabling the exploitive and sadistic guru to abuse his followers without scrutiny.)


123. WhaleRider - November 29, 2016

“Of course fantasy is the only alternative to such a realization…”

Really? Sounds close minded to me.

I understand how you feel, though, and I can think of another alternative to the narcissistic pursuit of eternal life for the isolated ego…

It’s called: compassion for what might be going on in another’s “bone box”.

In other words, I might choose, as you have, to share the idea of subjective isolation through empathic communication, either directly through language or indirectly through an art form such as painting, music, sculpture or literature. And when I do, I feel connected to others through experience.

There’s a big difference between, “that’s just the way it is man, get used to it, and if you don’t believe me, fuck off”, and “this is what I’m experiencing, what about you?”

So how do you deal with it?

I mean you do realize you are not alone with your perception…unless you want to be.

Certainly you learned this sophistry from someone else, did you not? You did not come upon this terrifying and psychotic idea of your whole identity being locked in a “bone box” all by yourself.

I agree with you, suffering now for the sake of eternal life robs us from enjoying the present and living our lives more fully by appreciating that as you say, this is it.

Without the spector of ego death looming, we are lulled into accepting the status quo. Why seek change if god has the monopoly on paradise and justice? And being a ego-less slave to a guru is not the road to happiness either.

So how do we make the best of it?

We step outside the box. We do unto others as we would have then do unto us. It’s a win/win scenario.

Sociopathic cult leaders who prey upon their followers with promises of paradise usually aren’t playing by that rule.

124. Mind Out of Rhyme - November 29, 2016

The endless pursuit of attaining an unruffled and imperturbable condition of being please with oneself is the oldest religion and the most corrupt. No one living in the typical and predictable lifelong trance of worshiping himself is in any fashion ever rational or even remotely self-controlled. Every breath for such a warped personal perception contains in its routine exhalation yet another violent, defensive thrust in the hopeless perpetual war of maintaining a fallacious sense of inflated self-worth.

Fact: when you die nothing lives on. All thought, all feeling and all existence stops and the game is at long last ended.

The good news is that your specific horrific life of continuous smugness and vain self-justification ceases to torment you or the universe.

125. brucelevy - November 29, 2016

Unfuckingbelievable. Greg, give it a fucking rest.

126. ton2u - November 30, 2016


Cheer up old bean… life’s short, then you die.

127. brucelevy - November 30, 2016


warning this link takes you to a potential virus (blog moderator)

128. Associated Press - December 1, 2016

127. brucelevy

Another link to same content:
leah remini scientology and the aftermath:

warning this link takes you to a potential virus (blog moderator)

129. ion - December 1, 2016

Thinking about the hard work and failures (maybe more than the successes) that ‘one can feel’ from the posts of many (many who have frequently posted here – you can feel their pain, you can feel their striving for the release from that pain) – it behooves those who post ‘arbitrary crap’ (we and they know who they are – it is impossible to hide behind a facade of wordy sophistry) to look in the cosmic mirror and see whether an overhaul of their psyche is necessary.

The fact is – there are noble characteristics to be sought – there is a Sense of Self worth achieving – Life IS Meaningful and all we can dream to be possible ….. IS POSSIBLE !!!!!

130. ion - December 1, 2016

Due to being willing to help a neighbor who is coming off Quetiapine (Seroquel) and they deal with a lazy psychiatrist who is not sensible enough to put a Community Worker in place, to help them through the next few months (which are crucial, should they develop withdrawal symptoms – which is highly likely on such a volatile drug)…..I came across MEDSCAPE – PSYCHIATRY JOURNAL (and the following article)…P.S. The person above has complex – PTSD, not psychopathy, about which the article is written…..

(This research was supported in part by grants through the American Psychological Foundation, the American Psychology–Law Society, the Harry Frank Guggenheim Foundation, the Massachusetts General Hospital Center for Law, Brain, and Behavior, the Brain and Behavior Research Fund, and the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. The authors have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.)


131. Mind Out of Rhyme - December 1, 2016

Anyone else in the world ever understand that Monty Python is lame and an extremely poor source of spiritual instruction?

132. ton2u - December 1, 2016


“Spiritual instruction?” Huh? It’s apparent that you hold some misguided notions… you’re still “looking” for “spiritual instruction” ? How about starting with the basics of being human, growing a sense of humor for example.

O.k. so you didn’t get the message… and obviously you don’t see the humor in Monty Python, to each their own…. but from the sound of what you post, I doubt that you find much, if any, humor in life.

You might want to consider learning to laugh – and especially at yourself…. it will definitely help lift your “spirit.”

133. Mind Out of Rhyme - December 1, 2016

Remember dear old grandma and your first puppy Sparky? Thought you’d be eventually reunited in heaven? Forget it. They’re toast. Dust. Never going to see grandma or Sparky again. Laugh that off.

134. ion - December 1, 2016

133 MOoR

Watch “Avatar”, by James Cameron – a modern day version of how the universe speaks to us. Nothing which strives for good in this world is lost. All is alive somewhere. You cannot escape this universe.

135. Mind Out of Rhyme - December 1, 2016

134. ion

“Watch ‘Avatar’, by James Cameron – a modern day version of how the universe speaks to us.”

I have watched the cartoon in 3D and only a childish mind would imagine that it depicts something realistic. It is commercialism cashing in on the New Age infection that has gripped the populations of California and Bali.

136. brucelevy - December 1, 2016


You’re still the sick fuck you’ve always been. Any guesses as to how soon he gets thrown off the blog for the umpteenth time. You are a sickness that never changes, except, perhaps, getting worse.

137. brucelevy - December 1, 2016

Sorry, I’m referring to Greg in 135, not 136

138. Mind Out of Rhyme - December 1, 2016

Freudian slip
an unintentional error regarded as revealing subconscious feelings.

This is a telling Freudian slip, a seeming “mistake” that actually reveals the truth.

136. brucelevy – December 1, 2016

136 [indicates who this is referring to]

You’re still the sick fuck you’ve always been. You are a sickness that never changes, except, perhaps, getting worse.

139. brucelevy - December 2, 2016


Yeah wank away. mf’er.

140. fofblogmoderator - December 2, 2016

Mind Out Of Rhyme I put you on the “comments blacklist”. I won’t discuss it here but feel free to contact me and I’ll be happy to discuss it with you in private. (nogurus@yahoo.com)

141. fofblogmoderator - December 2, 2016

Sorry comments are closed for this entry

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