Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 155 September 20, 2016
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Fellowship of Friends - Living Presence Discussion 
pg 154 #138
“The wound that helped us get hooked into the scam is at the center of our experience.”
A person does not come to a cult as a “blank slate” – there are antecedents, preconditions of soul, social and emotional conditions and conditioning which lay the groundwork in an individual causing him / her to become a likely candidate for cult membership. I think that’s broadly speaking the “wound’ jomo refers to. He’s right, the ingredients that go into the make-up of an individual soul – wounds and all – are the result of life experience… “sustained scrutiny” – the self-reflective process is where transformation of experiences can take place.
While I may rant here against burton and the FOF scam, I don’t forget my part in it… this requires that I examine my own soul-conditions – what lead me to the FOF in the first place and where I’m at now in that respect. I think there’s accountability on both sides of the the ledger… and though outwardly (here) I may “blame” burton for setting the FOF trap, inwardly I realize that’s only part of the equation, there’s my responsibility to consider – and I do. But as far as that goes there’s “breach of fiduciary responsibility” to consider when it comes to burton in his role as “teacher” in relation to his “students” – because of the relative positions and the “power” imbalance of teacher in relation to student, I feel the greater burden of responsibility is on burton…but that’s probably moot at this point… especially since burton is not going to change – he has no conscience when it comes to using people, he has no regard for consequences of his actions as they may impact other lives – he cannot see beyond his own immediate gratifications.
This year’s Ig Nobel Prizes are awarded
See: On the reception and detection of pseudo-profound bullshit
So, Bob claims the absolute visited him, washed his feet and told him to, “Get ready.”?
Nice of him to pop out of Bob’s chimney like Santa in summer. Presumably was in the neighborhood making mercy calls on morons.”Get ready your ambulance is coming, can’t have you going to the asylum with smelly feet” is most likely what he meant.
To my recollection Bob has claimed to have been visited in the shower by Leonardo Da Vinci. Visited by Peter Ouspensky in the Nut Tree, (I kid you not), where he telepathically communicated to Bob that, “Yuba’s not so bad if you come straight down”. Then the oldest conscious being in the universe visited one xmas time, can’t remember what he said, but then I suspect Bob doesn’t either. Now the absolute’s come to ingratiate himself like a fawning toady.
Bob likes to tell whoppers to render his superior specialness apparent and impress the potential sperm donor. Told me once that the 76 garage on Hwy 20 was put there by C influence to celebrate the year of his crystalization. It’s a Chevron now.
What’s next one wonders? Who could possibly beat the Absolute for universal appeal when he needs to manipulate the sorry assed sheep who swallow this poop.
The Absolute’s Mom and Dad perhaps, they pop out of Bob’ chimney at thanksgiving say, “Surprise, Surprise”, reveal, little Ab has an evil twin brother named Lex who does all the bad stuff. They change Bob’s diaper and beam up.
Bob’s desperate, his claim is an obvious absurdity. It reveals many things, including the fact that he never awakened for one and doesn’t really understand what self remembering might be for two.
The sheep are getting restless, having spent 50 years building an Ark rotting in dry dock, a failed winery, bankrolling several failed prophecies, a failed teaching, including the last ten years being milked dry by the last big whopper, – The Sequence.
So Bob’s going for the end of the world again to scare the bejabers out of the flock and keep them corralled in the Fellowship compound, funding his obscene, lamentable existence, poor taste in art and clothing, viagra and giant dildos.
The other big threat he’s currently trying to neutralize is non-duality, which he obviously doesn’t understand but which increasing numbers within the compound seem to. Just like when the 44 conscious beings gave way to the plethora of sorely misinterpreted beings served up morning noon and night by Asaf and Bob, remember the Greeks, the Egyptians etc., the Bible? Now it’s non-duality with Dorian, Spider in Chief, as teacher.
It’s a scam to give the kids what they want in hopes they don’t finally get off they’re lazy, apathetic, brainwashed asses and look elsewhere for something more real or at least less insane. Truth is if non-duality were to replace the current dogs dinner of a teaching with any depth, truth or sincerity, then Bob, his cronies and delusions would be in the trash can along with the matching hideous suits.
“The most significant event in the history of the school”, is apparently how the crazies in the compound with the shared delusion are responding to Bob’s proclamation. It’s possibly the biggest lie in the history, how much more “molestuall influence” can people take?
NASA Scientists Note Troubling Shift In Expanding Universe
Washington, DC- Scientists at NASA are concerned by a dramatic increase in the speed at which the Universe is expanding…surprisingly not in all directions.
“It seems the Universe has just gone into hyper-drive,” said NASA Scientist Jordan Gilgamesh, “yet, recent data from the Hubble Space Telescope suggests the Universe is only accelerating further away from Earth.”
Scientists are at a loss to explain why the All and the Everything has suddenly changed course away from our not-so-humble planet.
One clue comes from an unlikely source.
Last month, Robert E. Burton, the aging, megalomaniacal leader of a reclusive Northern California Gay Sex cult claims to have been “visited” by the Absolute and told to “get ready” by washing his feet.
Despite the obvious signs of Burton’s Christ Complex, several key members in the cult are maneuvering to fill the empty with the void after their leader’s imminent passing over into the great beyond.
But apparently, as many thousands of ex-cult members have already done so, the normally expansive Absolute is now distancing itself from Burton, too.
I don’t know how to attach an image here. This is what came today by email to all students:
This photo was taken on September 5, 2016 at the dinner to celebrate entering our 50th year of meeting Influence C.
Guinevere Mueller, Linda Kaplan and Jan Allen with Robert – symbolizing the Three Graces and the steward.
They were all present on the first weekend we acquired the property in 1971, now called Apollo.
Again, the Absolute didn’t kiss or wash Robert’s feet. Robert kneeled to kiss his feet. Apparently the Absolute has feet! What surprises me that nobody seems to have a problem with such event. We all heard about Leonardo or the oldest conscious being visiting Robert that didn’t bother me as much as the Absolute. Mainly because it’s somehow imaginable. Even if Jesus visited him it would be ok. Absolute is different. Absolute can’t visit. Period. Was it ever recorded in the history? Any other visitation of the Absolute?
Robert said something like he was visited by the world 1 and 3. “which is the higher centers…and then we have world 12 and 6.” So, now we have to switch quickly form the idea that our higher centers are 12 and 6 to a whole new system.. I thought that worlds 1 and 3 are out of reach. Nobody wants to discuss this with me.
MCM @ 7 are you for real?
“…Nobody wants to discuss this with me.”
Why? Because it’s absolute nonsensical bullshit !
It seems you’re having trouble understanding “the system” so I’ll explain – the sole purpose is to manipulate suckers like you… you’re hypnotized. That’s the riddle you have to figure out before you can even think about escaping the cult.
The entire stunt with the “Absolute” was planned a long time ago. Dorian “predicted” it at a meeting he led back in April/May. He proclaimed a “new phase” was about to begin. It would shake the FF tree and some people would fall off. But there would be no returning to the old ways. Then the “visitation” happened on Sept 2 (the 2nd time in 800 days), and all the talk (from RB) is how the “school” has changed forever. Then Dorian led another meeting, on Sept 18 and repeated many of the same things he said back in April/May. “There is no going back.” “It will be deadly to go back.” And so on. Dorian knew about the up-coming “visit by the Absolute” at least 4-5 months ago. So did Robert. It’s all a manipulative script.
Mad Cult Member,
Thanks for the clarification and insights, good to get the….. er, um,…..”facts” straight….!?**.
You are absolutely right about the Absolute not having feet. Doesn’t even have a pair of slippers or a teddy bear he can call his own.
Try and stick with your perceptions and understanding and buy yourself a life-person jacket. The Fellowship’s not an Ark, it’s a rubber dinghy with a puncture.
“Free your mind, your ass will follow” – Bootsy Collins
Warning: If you are subject to extreme reactions, or overly sensitive to smells, you might want to skip to the next posting.
From a meeting Robert Burton led on 9-5-16 (3 days after the latest “visitation”):
“One reason that He is visiting us is because the first angel
visited us and we are at the end of the sequence of civilizations. We
are the thirty-third expression of schools in different galaxies. Each
civilization lasts about 800,000 years, from the prehistoric to the
present. In our case, the machine age and the space age overlap.
The reason that He comes here is because we are the last of the
thirty-three expressions of school. That is why we have this honor.”
Insider
Thanks for your posts,
Hopefully a lot of people will get shaken from the Nut Tree, I wish them well, they’ll be the lucky ones. Post tree shake, the Fellowship will be smaller, poorer, more secretive, insular, paranoid than before.
Then the lies, rationalizations and justifications will pale in comparison to a house call from the Absolute.
Should hasten the visitation of an inevitable absolute implosion.
Twisted that Dorian uses Bob’s old ways of outright lies, strategic pre-planned manipulation and fear mongering in a speech claiming there’d be no return to the old ways. Nothing surprises any more though, “Going back would be deadly” gives a little chilling insight into the workings of Dorians’ infected mind.
Wow, Bob’s truly insane.
“One reason He is visiting us is because the first angel visited us.”
Wait up Bob that’s not a reason and He’s only been visiting You not us, just like the first angel didn’t.
“We are the thirty third expression of schools in different galaxies”
Course we are Bob. Now, “Get Ready” your ambulance is coming. Dorian, video store in Brownsville’s on the phone, they want their Star Trek DVD’s back, lot of people been asking for them since 9-5-16 and you owe a dinghy-load of late charges.
“…we are at the end of the sequence of civilizations.”
I believe this worldview is often the case in doomsday cults and with people who make apocalyptic prophecies, and for me is a clear example of someone who does not know themselves.
Apparently burton believes (as did countless others before him and undoubtedly will after him) that the world is coming to an abrupt end and that chaos and destruction will prevail…well, nothing new there.
It appears to me that burton is attempting to displace his own fear of death and ego disintegration onto his followers, and then proceeds to entertain the delusion that he is somehow exempt, immortal even; thus building a wall around himself and making others pay for it.
For burton the world IS coming to an end, just probably not for everyone else all at once…unless he is accompanied by some true believers as did Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite or accompanied by as many heathens as possible, like an ISIS suicide bomber.
It is certainly plausible that one or two people will pass over very soon after burton expires, either by suicide or by natural causes, since he has been such a focal point in their lives, inflating their egos, and giving their lives structure and meaning. In doing so, they are also spared all the infighting that is surely to plague the cult in the aftermath of burton’s death.
Don’t elderly people sometimes feel the same way? My 82 year old mother does. As their bodies decay, they see that the whole world is going to shit, too, and will never be the same as it once was when they were young, which is understandable from their perspective. But is that true for everyone?
Just for the record, and I could be wrong, but I don’t believe the world is going to abruptly end any time soon, even if Trump gets elected, god forbid.
But don’t take my word for it.
Turn off Fox News, go to the park, and watch the children play. (Then be sure to vote!)
“Each civilization lasts about 800,000 years, from the prehistoric to the present.”
Here again, burton reveals both his dismal command of the English language and grasp of history.
Prehistoric, nomadic people do not constitute a “civilization”. It’s a misuse of the word.
Civilization>/b>, that is, when nomadic peoples began to cultivate crops, domesticate animals, build more permanent housing and form complex relationships, as far as we can tell, began only about 5,000 years ago.
The first fossilized evidence of humans appeared 1-2 million years ago.
“We are the thirty-third expression of schools in different galaxies.”
OMG, is burton taking up Scientology?
Historical note: At the beginning of the digital era, when people printed out every one of those new–fangled e-mails and regarded them as precious, some were inevitably mislaid. A member of the Fellowship of Friends recently came across some papers stashed in an old wine barrel on the roof of the office in Shop 3. These in particular apparently caught his eye, and he kindly passed them on to me:
2/30/1991
Dear Linda,
The Teacher requests your help. These are his words, as best as I can convey.
“Today, after receiving many precious donations from my entourage, I and some of the ‘boys’ C–influence has gifted me were discussing the nutritional value of sperm. As you may have heard, C–influence requires that I perform a lot of oral sex. That is my task and my cross to bear. On Valentines day each year, Leonardo requests that I set aside the entire day to orally gratify at least as many men as I have had birthdays; he has quite a sense of humor! Most other days C–influence sets a limit of a dozen, since I have to take precious time from shopping for the Ark, not to mention organizing the lives of all my students in the minutest detail. Anyway, Linda, this may seem like a weird question, but since C–influence makes me swallow, I would like you to research what nutritional benefits are involved when “swallowing” and approximately how many calories are in a Romanian man’s ejaculation? I was told that it is very high in protein, but also that it is very high in calories, and you know the problems I have with weight. Thank you for your help in this matter.
With love, Robert”
2/31/1991
Dear Robert,
You are asking me?
Anyway, for what it’s worth, my extensive investigations show that a typical ejaculation from an average vineyard worker fills up about one teaspoon. But surely, as a renowned expert, you must know the actual amount at a particular time is determined by a man’s age (younger men usually make more semen), when he last ejaculated, the amount you are paying him, the amount of Viagra you have given him, and how long he’s been viewing porn before ejaculating, among other factors. My experience is that generally Romanians have more forceful ejaculatons, which less experienced people might mistake for greater quantity. Anyway, contrary to what you’ve heard, semen is not loaded with calories. Each teaspoon of ejaculate has about five to seven calories and some 200 to 500 million sperm. Since sperm make up only about one percent of semen, what accounts for the other 99 percent, the precious seminal fluid? Well, these other ingredients include:
Over 50% protein (albumen)
Fructose sugar (mmm, tasty!)
Water
Ascorbic acid (aka Vitamin C)
Citric acid
Enzymes
Phosphate and bicarbonate buffers (bases)
…and last, but not least, Zinc.
So, really good for you.
Can swallowing semen make up for a protein–poor and alcohol–rich diet like your’s, Robert? Unless you’re gulping gallons of it each day, it’s no substitute for real nutritious cuisine! Ha, ha, ha! Just joking, Robert! Of course, it’s the perfect food! But while it may be nutrition you’re after, Robert, semen can also harbor sexually transmitted diseases. Of course, you being a 900–million year old goddess and all, you are immune to catching anything yourself, but if concern for your mortal students were ever to accidentally arise, it might be a good idea to keep in mind safer sex practices when considering whether or not to swallow. This is certainly not a photograph, Robert, merely an observation—sorry to mention it.
Also, some of your ‘boys’ have sex with their wives and girlfriends as well (I know, what a waste of sperm!), which usually means that they have contact with their partners’ coochies—and who knows where they have been. I certainly can’t remember everywhere mine has been over the years! Sorry for the yucky female details, even though you are a goddess.
Anyway, I appreciate the way you do the will of C–influence so very… thoroughly. I know you are only doing this for the School, for the sake of future civilization, to save humanity and the universe, and for all your students. We are truly fortunate, as you say.
Robert, I do understand how these incessant, day–in, day–out demands by C-influence might get tiresome at times, so if you ever want to share the some of those ins and outs, I am willing to take on the Russians…
With great love and appreciation for all that you do,
Linda
A certain ‘man number 5’ seems to have heard about this, and the same archive reveals this ‘photograph’
Dear Linda,
your comment to Robert about gulping gallons of semen a day to enrich a poor diet is very misleading and irresponsible. Just gulping one gallon of semen would feed the gulper 3,840 calories (assuming the low end of the range of 5 per teaspoon). This amount is appropriate only for a competitive athlete. Gulping gallons (7,000 to 11,000 calories) would be dangerous for most humans. The US Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) of calories per day is more in the range of 2,000. Hence, a poor diet would be greatly enhanced by 300-500 calories of highly nutritional foods. So gulping 1 or 2 cups of semen is a more appropriate and realistic suggestion. I gave Robert this very same advice a decade ago.
Sincerely,
GH, a Concerned Ejaculator
14 – WhaleRider
You obviously left the Fellowship a long time ago and are, thus, woefully uninformed of recent understandings about civilizations.
To begin with, “Sequence of Civilizations” no longer refers to Rodney Colin’s theory about an “octave” of civilizations beginning with the Greek and ending with the Fellowship. Now (and I hope I get this right) “civilization” (at least on Earth) is considered to be one single expression of “School,” which began with the prehistoric and has continued uninterrupted to the present (i.e. the Fellowship). It is also now known that “School,” and thus “civilization,” has appeared in 32 other galaxies prior to its expression in our own galaxy, right here on planet Earth. And thus “Sequence of Civilizations” means the 33 expressions of school/civilization, ours being the final one.
As to the “prehistoric” phase of the current civilization on Earth, it is now well established that the Greek preceded the Roman, the Egyptian preceded the Greek, and the “prehistoric” preceded the Egyptian. Of course, they were given the “Sequence,” the infallible proof of which is in the cave painting of the six rino poops, another cave painting of 11 deer (six plus four plus one for a new sequence, in case you were wondering), and various representations of deer antlers always showing “all the right numbers.”
(Hopefully I’ve brought the photo in correctly. If not, it will appear shortly, once I get some help.)
This photograph of the spontaneous act of kissing the ground in the presence of “The Absolute” is, supposedly, from June 2014. Note the spontaneous handkerchief perfectly placed under Robert’s knees, not to mention the photographer spontaneously ready with the camera.
Robert’s words in 2016 describing this scene from 2014:
“This is a photograph of me kneeling and bowing, kissing the ground
during the first visit of the Absolute. It occurred right in the front of
the Gallery at the beginning of the rose arbor, after you walk
through the four cypress trees and turn left. Petrarch said, ‘I bless
the place, the time, and the hour of the day/that my eyes aimed
their sight at such a height.’ Here we see that. Then we walked
straight ahead, beyond the path on the right, and our dog Apollo
was doing his business—number two—on the lawn. It was the third
state. N***y was with Him. N***y is now in drug rehab.
“Afterwards Sasha and I went into the house. (Dorian came later.) He (the Absolute – Insider) then did an act of humility for me. All I could think of was to get down and kiss Sasha’s feet as an act of humility too. Who are we that He should do an act of humility for us? But that was the only response I could think of.”
So, now we know the Absolute is a ‘he’, and that ‘he’ takes time off from the broad strokes of creating not just one, but many universes, to “perform an act of humility for Burton”. What does that mean? Kind of ‘him’ to bother, anyway.
Diving into metaphysics, if Burton’s mind can encompass the Absolute, or even recognize ‘him’, doesn’t that mean…
Uh–oh.
Backing off a bit, this makes Burton at least a Man #33 (using the google to the exponential google power super–enhanced–beyond—logarithmic all–vertical scale, since the actual number approaches infinity). I guess the photo, when it appears, will show JC as a mere flyspeck on the sole of one of his Gucci shoes.
BTW, what does Leonardo have to say about all this? Enquiring minds want to know!
18. Ames
Not so fast about “he” and “him.” More from Robert:
“The Absolute’s higher mental center is World 1 and His higher emotional is World 3. Something else of interest is that the first visit was male—higher mental—Nicky—Nicholas—St. Nicholas—Santa Claus. The second visit was female—higher emotional. He took World 1 on the first visit and World 3 in the second. We do not know if they are separate bodies or not, but they are very definitely separate identities.”
Trying again:
“>
This is just fucking insane.
Absolutely! There’s no protective hanky under his Guccis!
#15 Ames
You obviously made it up. For a moment I thought it was true, but it is is not. You craftet this email correspondence for laughs, right?
What this image really says is:
Here, you can kiss my ass!
(And, any other part on my anatomy.)
Not too sure what this one says, butt face maybe, but perhaps others have a better idea.
This photo of, supposedly, REB kneeling looks photo-shopped to me. (As so many of the photos used in FoF are – to enhance the particular message desired.) For one, look at the area around the feet. There is a kind of rectangular artifact that would not be there in a natural shot. Also, on the left there is some sort of light shining on the arbor upright and the rose bushes that are climbing. It appears to be dusk or dawn in time when the garden lighting is on – or, it can be dark out and the photo was lightened up. In either case, the light upon, and shadow of, the figure kneeling does not seem to be appropriate to the conditions. Then, again, perhaps there is an illuminating light shining directly down from above.
[Then there is the issue already mentioned about cloth under the knees and photographer at-the-ready that speaks to the unlikeliness of it being a spontaneous act of humility in a moment of rapture with the Absolute.]
Gosh, it might not even be REB! But, then, who would wear those pants except for a photograph. I photograph ass-up vanity.
27 – The rectangle is a reflection in the monitor. This image was captured while watching a broadcast where it was being shown to the audience. I don’t know the time of day, but it looks to be dusk. Unless he got Sasha to pose for this shot (which I doubt), this is REB in the picture.
It’s odd, but I don’t remember seeing this picture when it was supposedly taken in June 2014. Did they intentionally save it for the “Absolute’s second visit” a few weeks ago; or was this photo made only recently and not in 2014? Either way, it’s all theater now.
Re: the two recent photographs – kissing the ground looks like bobby boy is getting ready for butt sex… if it doesn’t look “spontaneous” it’s probably because it’s such a practiced position for him… and the photo of the “conscious bob” in his just “darling” pink get-up, surrounded by pansies (a visual metaphor for FOF sycophants who continue to surround and support him)… with that frozen simulacrum of a ‘smile’ on that horrid face – he looks completely insane – no further proof of this is needed after reading the latest nonsense about “the absolute” @ 19. The rats on board don’t yet realize it but this “ark” is sinking fast.
Regarding the photo in #26–looks like the “treacher” (just add an “ous”) is becoming his own wallpaper.
Someone is suggesting they have the ability to interact with “the Absolute”? It might be helpful to think about the mind-blowing scale of the universe to put that in perspective:
http://scaleofuniverse.com/the-known-universe/
Thanks to the Hubble telescope, we’re gaining an increasing awareness of the size of the universe. Websites such as Nasa and Space. com present numbers that are incomprehensible; and the numbers keep getting bigger over time.
How many stars are there in the Milky Way galaxy?
According to space. com, there are 100 billion stars in the Milky Way. The Nasa site states there could be as many as 400 billion stars, and many scientists suggest the number could be even larger.
How many galaxies are there in the visible universe?
While estimates among different experts vary, many think there are between 100 billion and 200 billion galaxies.
What is the nearest star system to our own?
Alpha Centauri, 4.4 Billion light years away.
32. – Make that 4.4 light years, rather than 4.4 billion.
It’s as if Robert is trying to tell to biggest lie ever told, big enough to match the scale of his narcissism.
And he knows a certain percentage of members automatically will fall for it. The other day a member said she was not entirely comfortable with the tale Robert is currently telling, but that she would at least “try it on” for while and see how it felt.
Problem is, if we “try on” someone else’s belief system, sometimes it’s very hard to take if off again.
Try this one on: There was a dinner with the treacher under the stars, near the statue of David. He proclaimed that the entire universe/galaxy was dead. Only he and the school were alive. At that moment, all the electricity at his table blacked out–ONLY at his table. He and the diners at his table were completely in the dark. He took this as a sign he was correct. I took it as a sign to get the hell out of there…
Insider, thanks for catching that, and for sharing your insights. You too, MCM.
@36 -Looks like John Harmer is a new contributor. Welcome John.
Atlantic Documentaries
How Well-Meaning, Intelligent People End Up in a Cult
The Atlantic Sep 26, 2016
EnlightenNext was an organization, founded by self-styled guru Andrew Cohen, that aimed to facilitate spiritual awakening. Cohen’s most devoted students meditated for hours—at times, months—on end, were often celibate, and lived together. However, what started as an idealistic venture quickly turned into a complicated, often-sinister world that revolved around Cohen. The story of EnlightenNext’s rise and fall begs a deeper question: How do otherwise well-intentioned and rational people end up in a cult? In this documentary, The Atlantic talks to former members, as well as Cohen himself, about their stories in order to uncover the life span of a new religious movement that, after 27 years, collapsed nearly overnight.
Authors: Jaclyn Skurie, Nicolas Pollock
http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/501413/life-and-death-of-a-cult/
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/18/opinion/la-oe-thompson-atheism-20110718
“He proclaimed that the entire universe/galaxy was dead. Only he and the school were alive.”
Wow, that’s quite a statement.
Then suddenly the lights go out, but only at burton’s table…(thank you Universe). Hmmm, what could that possibly mean?
IMO, burton’s grandiose claim speaks to his profound lack of empathy for others.
What he is saying is that only the people around him are “alive” because only they are the ones willing to reflect back to him and affirm his narcissistic delusion that he is someone special.
Everyone else or in other words, anyone who doesn’t agree with him might as well be dead, and to burton’s warped ego, they are.
In this manner, he absolves himself from all scrutiny. He can say and do anything he wants.
Here’s how that plays out, IMO.
Let’s say I tell a big fat lie to inflate my ego, creating a sense of awe in the room.
People might think, WTF, is this guy crazy? Since my over-inflated ego might feel a little uncomfortable knowing that others might sense in their gut that I am lying, then I would just wait for an outward “sign” to validate I am right.
So in the stunned silence something “magical” happens to “buffer” the uncomfortable feelings. It might be right then, or it might be later.
Any event can be utilized really…the lights dimming, a shooting star, a certain number appears, a baby cries, a car alarm goes off, a follower’s relative dies…then my ego will interpreted that as a “sign”, that either I am right or those who disagree are wrong. How could one argue with that?
This is known as “ideas of reference” or “delusions of reference” which “describe the phenomenon of an individual’s experiencing innocuous events or mere coincidences and believing they have strong personal significance. It is the notion that everything one perceives relates to one’s own destiny”. ~Wikipedia
A person with such an elevated narcissistic inventory sees the world in black and white. Their relationship with others will oscillate between idealization and devaluation. “You are either with us or against us”. There is no middle ground. All “signs” lead to the same conclusion.
So the unfortunate follower in burton’s orbit really has no choice but to passively “try it on”, because if they do not, if they express any modicum of doubt or dissent…they are asked to leave the cult and face certain “death”.
This is the inhumane tactic the cult leader uses to cull the nonbelievers from his midst, isolating his followers from family and friends, and thus reinforcing complete dependence and blind allegiance…all leveraged by the fear of abandonment.
Remember, burton chose not to spend his entire life in a totalitarian cult, but left his guru in a surprisingly short amount of time, as did Ouspensky, yet burton expects the opposite from his followers.
IMHO, cults are a systemic violation of Human Rights.
Burton and Trump are the same both brightest lights in two thousand years.
Arthur, both are malignant narcissists.
WhaleRider;
“IMHO, cults are a systemic violation of Human Rights.”
I don’t disagree – problem is that people can’t be protected from themselves in making their own poor choices and bad decisions – like joining a cult.
Re: ‘ideas of reference’ – it’s much more serious than occasional flights of ‘magical thinking” and the situation is obviously serious, dire, ultimately destructive and in some cases even life threatening (e.g. Brian S.), for those who get tangled up in burton’s delusional “system.”
(When I left the FOF burton’s words to my then-wife were “he doesn’t understand the system.” Not true, I had the unfortunate experience of “intimate” insight into his “system” and suddenly understood all too clearly… in fact that insight and my understanding of “the system” was the sole reason I left – in spite of connections to family and friends which would have no doubt otherwise kept me in the FOF “fold” ).
I think burton is truly, “clinically” insane:
“Schizophrenia is classified as a psychotic disorder, which means the inability to tell the difference between what is real or imagined.”
I believe he is in fact psychotic, he’s a psychopath who suffers from a form of schizophrenia…. decades ago he should’ve been institutionalized or medicated to protect unsuspecting souls from his “systematic” infliction of the effects of this type of mental illness…. Institutionalization and / or proper medications might have saved a lot of folks from violations of their “human rights.”
But burton didn’t and does not possess the emotional intelligence which might have motivated him to seek professional help for his illness… he really believed his “special” delusions – unfortunately he’s been able to con others into believing too. Insanity does not imply stupidity, there are some very clever psychopaths who are able to find a way to function by preying upon the unwary – those like burton who live a parasitic existence at the expense of others.
A question can be posed here based somewhat on the Atlantic article above, but rather than “how” – it might be asked “WHY” do seemingly well-meaning, and (seemingly) intelligent people join cults? And a following question is, why do they stay – like “Insider” – even when the horror of the situation is obvious (?).
It may be that they (we) are / were not as intelligent or as “well-meaning” as we might like to imagine.
Think about it – we joined a cult… now how “intelligent” is that ? We were fooled, which implies we were fools… some may yet be fools – for example some folks may fool themselves, put a positive spin by rationalizing joining a cult. This way of thinking is encapsulated in the title of the Atlantic article above – it implies that after all we are/ were “intelligent” and “well meaning” – right?
(Thanks John for the G.D. Ship of Fools – that about sums up the FOF “ark”).
Maybe at it’s core the motivation to “wake up” – to “acquire powers,” or some notion of “enlightenment” – or whatever else drew one to the FOF, is founded on selfishness and narcissism – “qualities” which are embodied, reflected and exponentially magnified by the illness of “the teacher.”
Maybe the “why” of joining a cult had to do with the need of an authority figure to serve as a guide, or the lure of becoming part of a ready-made community – a surrogate extended family…. these are not motivations based on intelligence nor do they have much to do with “meaning well” – the FOF wasn’t exactly out there feeding the poor – the idea of altruism doesn’t exist for the FOF.
I would characterize the “why” of joining a cult as naivete’ at “best” – or maybe compensation for something that was missed during a developmental phase prior to falling into the cult trap.
If I’m going to be “brutally honest” with myself and avoid the sugar-coatings, rationalizations, and denials, I would say joining a cult has nothing to do with well-meaning intelligence – it’s more in the category of “woundedness” – as jomo alluded to at the end of the previous page here:
“The wound that helped us get hooked into the scam is at the center of our experience. But we can come to understand that wound, and reframe, and re-reframe, how we understand it, with each reframing taking in more. We cannot unlive the life we’ve had, but we can put our experiences through the sieve of our sustained scrutiny and extract what’s there to be extracted. It’s more than the “get on with it” crowd imagine!”
@ 39 g.g. re: la times article – sometimes the obvious is not self-evident…. or is it visa versa ? in the words of Homer: “doh!”
this speaks to that :
Steiner was a lunatic. I have no interest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner#Early_spiritual_experiences
Although the video clip @ 43 is more entertaining and despite brevity goes into much more depth / detail than does the article in which you were interested enough to link us to @ 39, both say basically the same thing – human beings create their god(s) – not the other way ’round…. to ‘spell out’ the obvious.
Regardless of your opinion regarding Steiner, the CONTENT in the video link is the point, offering a possibility for further discussion – rather than the thought terminating remarks ‘offered’ @ 44. For example, discussion might elaborate on the content of both the la times article and the video clip above in order to make it (the content) more germane to blog conversation; e.g. we (humans) have a penchant for creating and worshipping false idols, as is the case with cults in general and specifically the FOF, where following / believing and ‘elevating’ a clay-footed charlatan like burton is an all too obvious example of the problems involved with blind faith…. etc.
“Regardless of your opinion regarding Steiner, the CONTENT in the video link is the point…”
I’m sure videos naming Aleister Crowley likely contain some relevant CONTENT one way or another as well. Still, the name itself is cause enough for me to refuse to waste time on it.
When I heard the story of Burton’s entrapment of a young idealistic follower I knew had to go. But I would have one last chance to pose some questions, I was in good enough standing, ex center director, to be able to get a direct phone call through to him. I knew very well I would only get one crack at it. As luck would have it just as Burton answered: the walkman I was using to keep a record of the conversation fell on the ground! “spooky c influence I was still brainwashed enough to think”. But I persisted and pressed record after I had posed my question, which was “How many students have you had sex with?” He began his reply with the phrase “Well I wouldn’t mind telling you BUT….and some vapid nonsense about how grateful he was to ALL his lovers, and as the sound returns he is just in the midst of congratulating himself for having the greatest possible sex life, which he wished on everyone else too. (nice of him, I thought) I had supposed the total was about 5, since I thought I had observed a pretty stable “inner circle” with a core personnel not changing much with the seasons. Of course now I know he probably couldn’t even remember how many students he had had sex with, it was so many. I preferred my second question, where the sound is much better. He is asked the epistemological puzzler “How do you KNOW what you think is true, really is true”. Now I would have expected a sophisticated Rodney Collin school Gurdjiefian to have thought about the question, and found some convoluted a priori reason to trust THIS particular source rather than any of the myriad of other competing myths. But I felt the moment I put the question to him, it was genuinely the first time he had given the matter any thought at all. It was clear to him the source was above him, and therefore not to be questioned. In fact he gets a bit peevish with me for spurning the gifts I am offered by higher school.
(as) mad as a hatter… (or) completely crazy. insane, mentally ill, certifiable, deranged, demented, of unsound mind, out of his mind, not in his right mind, sick in the head, crazed, lunatic, non compos mentis, unhinged, disturbed, raving, psychotic, psychopathic, mad as a hatter, mad as a March hare; crazy, mental, off one’s nut, nuts, nutty, nutty as a fruitcake, nutso, off one’s rocker, not right in the head, round/around the bend, (stark) raving mad, bats, batty, buggy, bonkers, dotty, cuckoo, cracked, loopy, loony, bananas, loco, screwy, schizoid, psycho, touched, gaga, not all there, not right upstairs, crackers, out of his tree, meshuga, wacko, gonzo; batshit; a screw loose, bats in his belfry; lost his reason, lost his mind, taken leave of his senses, lost his marbles, a cracked pot… etc, etc.
I vote for psychopathic. Just a run-of-the-mill psychopath. Manipulative. Lacking empathy. No friends. Afraid of being alone. But, IMO, he knows just what he is doing and why. A “power-possessing being” like so many politicians, CEOs, entertainers, and fellow religious/cult leaders.
For the benefit of my friends in the Fellowship who are pondering the “big question:” Is the Fellowship of Friends a School of Evolution or a cult?
Consider where most of the collective attention, time and energy is directed.
In the past, it was in studying the “system” ideas, reading a lot, discussing even more. It was in developing the tool and practice of self-observation. It was in observing aspects of ourselves (our “mechanicality”) we had never seen before. And it was in beginning to sense something separate from what we were observing.
Now most of the attention goes to Robert. It’s all about his daily life, his travels, his experiences, his needs, what he is wearing, who is with him, whether he is sick or well, his energy level, his “level of being.”
When worshipping the teacher becomes more important than the teaching, when we prefer to stare at his finger rather than where it is pointing (and when he also prefers us to do that), we can be sure that the school has become a cult.
Thanks Insider for all your recent posts.
Burton was fond of saying, “In a school, what one gains, we all gain, and my story is your story.”
But it has long been clear that the “one” to whom he refers has always been himself. (And, thank goodness, his story is not our story.)
In the beginning people are optimistic and cheerful because the natural course of life makes them generally healthy, ever stronger and in most cases more intelligent. This natural progression of growth, however, changes at a certain point. As the body naturally declines with age most people turn to religion, superstition, mysticism and spiritualism as an artificial emotional compensation for the growing realization that time itself is irreversibly killing them. The multitudes begin to indulge in fantasies of an eternal life as a potential perpetual habitat for this collection of illusions circulating in the mind that give rise to the mistaken belief that there is a permanent self full of lessons learned for the benefit of a magical life everlasting. In other words, in the end people are optimistic and cheerful because the unnatural course of socially induced self-hypnotism makes them in most cases less intelligent.
Insider,
Maybe I’m missing something so please ‘enlighten’ me… I’m under the impression that you are a “dues paying member” of the FOF – you’ve admitted that your “teacher” is psychopathic and you’ve acknowledged that the organization is a cult… the question I’ll ask again is, why do you continue to support burton and his FOF scam?
ton2u – Sorry again not to indulge your curiosity. But to go there would be a deviation from the aims of this blog, as well as my purpose for being here. I assume you don’t like anyone saying “trust me;” but that’s exactly what I am asking.
I’ve been following reports from several of the top newspapers regarding the presidential campaign, and also reading many of the online comments. Like these pages, the comments range from completely ridiculous to enlightening, informative, and highly articulate.
One commentator in the NY Times wrote in response to another writer: “How can you possibly reason with such colossally irrational thinking?”
That sums it up. The same is true here. Some of the wisdom that I’ve taken with me out of the cult is that propaganda and brainwashing are very real, and that you can’t reason with those who are victimized by it. Having been a victim myself, I can more readily understand how dangerous propaganda is.
We talked a lot about “programming” in the fof without realizing or acknowledging that perhaps the most destructive and harmful programming that we would ever experience was right there. It was being implemented by the same enablers and sycophants who tried to teach us about it. Ironic, eh?
Based on the fof experience alone, it’s easier to understand how someone so blatantly unqualified and dangerous could get this close to the presidency. One only hopes that enough people are swayed by the facts, which actually don’t lie: The facts tell the truth.
Burton will meet his demise (probably, soon). The wheels of ‘trafficking in human psyches’ will continue due to those who have been groomed for roles. The FOF is an indefinite ‘fools factory’ and we are still part of it unless we have seriously walked away from it, physically and internally. Really, I think the notion of helping ‘drain the victim pool’ is what we used to call ‘saviour feature’ (in reverse).
Insider,
Thanks at least for responding…. although you dismiss the question as if it’s idle curiosity.
Re; the question of continuing to support burton – even though you realize and admit that he’s psychotic and his cult is a scam – I would say this question is an essential of the blog – it relates to draining the victim pool, a main “theme” with a refrain that has continued over several years of the blog existence.
This is just a “grope” on my part since I don’t know you or your motives here, but you may be in a position many of us once were in, and some who read here may still be… that is, you may be ‘on the fence’ about leaving the cult, asking internally; “should I stay or should I go” but being “on the horns of a (seeming) dilemma” you remain ‘frozen’ in place.
?
There may be “reasons” that compel you to stay in the cult – I think it would add to the discussion and may even help clarify and resolve the situation for you and others who read here if you were to describe your motivations and your “purpose for being here” – can you tell us what that is ? And what keeps you paying your dues to a psychotic, malignant narcissist?
What is your purpose for being here? Is it the attention you’re after ?
You have an idea regarding “the aims of this blog” – can you say what you think these aims are ?
What do you think are the aims of this blog?
#57 Ton2u, while I share your interest in how insider squares things, I am also a bit uncomfortable with the questions you pose him or her. One of the things I value about the blog is the possibility of anonymity, and I am grateful for the news from the “heart of darkness” that insider can give us. I know nothing about their circumstances, but I don’t find it hard to imagine a very awkward situation which any disclosure may jeopardise. (Hoping to help a close friend or partner to leave at the same time for example)
So this is just to encourage insider to continue to post whatever he or she feels comfortable posting, and good luck with whatever your life direction is and will be.
58. John Harmer
I agree in part. However, Ton2u’s questions are very relevant. I can’t think of any valid reason that anyone would feel uncomfortable answering them. Ton2u is not asking the poster to reveal anything about themselves that would give away their identity, and Insider has already shared quite a lot. He could easily just say, “I would like to leave, but right now I can’t for reasons that I can’t divulge. Eventually I will leave, and when the time comes I may share more details.” (or something similar).
Sharing more about his thought process IS “news from the heart of darkness.” No one is asking him to share everything about what he’s thinking, just more about what he’s thinking.
By the way, criticism of Burton within some circles is not unheard of. It’s a pastime for many people. They scoff at his predictions of an ark, or laugh at his most recent comments, but they also pat themselves on the back for not leaving because they’re “keeping their aim,” or whatever. The complaining just makes it easier to deal with it, and it allows them to not face the reality head-on (what we used to call “buffering”).
57 Ton
My feeling, or guess is he’s a recently departed member who is still carrying much of the bullshit he’s lived with for years. Much useful info has come out of his posts. However, he also brings the pompous and arrogant mindset that is instilled after many years of being stroked in the fof…along with fof style of presentation eg: ” But to go there would be a deviation from the aims of this blog.” Which he is perfectly willing to define for us morons definitively. And Ton, I find your questions completely atuned to the “several” apparent aims of this blog.
#57 ion is a new contributor. Welcome.
Nigel asked me to post this link (AJ Miller – cult leader doc)
Bruce,
I didn’t mean to imply that there was just one aim of the blog, thanks for making that point clear with your “several.” And thanks for adding “apparent aim” – as it turns out this thing has a sort of autonomy and life of its own – at least somewhat… the gestalt of interaction determines the directions and aims of the blog – we as participants / readers just have to see where the threads lead.
Oscar and John, I wasn’t suggesting that insider reveal any more than s/he’s comfortable with… and I had no intention of attempting to “unmask” identity. I think the questions I asked are reasonable / fair and could be answered without this person jeopardizing anonymity. I agree that the appearance of Insider has stimulated the blog again and I appreciate that… but I think the questions asked are relevant here and I hope Insider will attempt to answer. I hadn’t considered that some still hang on to the FOF because they believe they’re “keeping their aim” – despite the madness at its core… (but isn’t that intransigence simply more madness?). Thanks for that insight Oscar.
Ion,
I agree with most of what you say, except the flippant quip about “savior feature” – you see “draining the victim pool” is not a new idea on the blog and it’s not a phrase I coined or introduced… but in fact, this blog seems to be a somewhat autonomous entity which has various functions and serves “several” purposes – again based on a gestalt of input, “readership, interpretations, etc…. and IN FACT draining the pool of victim happens to be one. If you’re new here, and if you haven’t read back pages yet, you probably don’t realize that reading and posting here has in fact helped people off the fence and out of the cult…. at least according to accounts that have been posted in the past. “Savior feature’ or “christ complex” or “messiah complex” or whatever you care to name it, implies delusional thinking…. a good example of this is burton and his supporters. Delusion implies a distortion of reality…. but since the blog has (apparently) ACTUALLY – that is, in reality – functioned as a catalyst to help people decide to leave the cult, imo your characterization of “savior feature” is a false equivalence.
64. ton2u
I was referring to insider’s inference of “one aim” of the blog, not your posts.
ton2u
It is not “The ‘I’s have changed”, as the saying goes (went), but I see your way of thinking here as broader than my first post. Of course, for personal, yet, shall we say (?) objective thinking or a real stance in society to occur for an individual, that ‘coming away’ from the cult, perhaps even before the actual, physical, separation has to be instilled by those ‘more escaped’. It is also up to us who used to see ‘through a glass darkly but now face to face’ (as that is the way we see our lives) to use this blog in a way that offers ‘the escape tunnel’. If ‘Insider’ is in two minds or action does not follow aim for him/her, then berating the fact here will make the situation worse for him/her and perhaps dozens more.
Again. opening myself up to others’ questioning, should that occur, I feel that ‘cool streams of reason’, ‘constructive blocks of thought’ are two ways that ‘outties’ of however length of time can reach to the sane part of a current member.
I was perhaps being selfish in not recognizing that living life for yourself is limiting, if not, in the end, destructive. When we see Burton it makes us well aware of that.
Ion, thank’s for the response… I suppose I tend to refer to the burtonites as a collective somewhat mockingly, sometimes disparagingly even, but I don’t think I’ve berated Insider specifically for fence sitting or anything else for that matter. I’ve attempted to engage this person in a dialogue and I may be direct about it but it wasn’t my intention to offend or berate him/her personally…. if I did offend I apologize.
Regarding a previous statement: “The FOF is an indefinite ‘fools factory’ and we are still part of it unless we have seriously walked away from it, physically and internally.” I understand this and don’t disagree but there’s another (probably several) way(s) of looking at the situation – this bit of human wisdom from the previous page is an apropos example:
138. jomopinata – September 19, 2016
The wound that helped us get hooked into the scam is at the center of our experience. But we can come to understand that wound, and reframe, and re-reframe, how we understand it, with each reframing taking in more. We cannot unlive the life we’ve had, but we can put our experiences through the sieve of our sustained scrutiny and extract what’s there to be extracted. It’s more than the “get on with it” crowd imagine!
48. John Harmer
If one looks at RB’s background, he’s basically typical of southern “white trash” (while being gay). Nothing wrong with being gay, but “other people’s money” cannot by one taste, class or credibility except when one surrounds one’s self with fawning sychophants, flying monkeys and sociopaths anxious to climb the ladder of power in a laughable and pitiable cult. But we get what we deserve.
And then sometimes we get lectures by people who have been “in” for 20, 30, 40 years who suddenly got religion and are vehement about the wrong that has been done, that they have energetically been supporting for almost half a century. Lawyers how supported and protected RB and his sins suddenly are judgemental. Students who fucked and got fucked for the perks until the novelty wore off. RB’s sexual enablers and procurers who gladly did the bidding of this psycho douchebag, and then suddenly see the error of their ways. I don’t fucking buy it.
And the “lectures” are invariably by brave “anonymous” posters…because they have such profound integrity borne of having “worked on themselves” for so long, by not “deviating from their aims.”
68/69/70 brucelevy
Obviously, there is some ‘venom of reality’ encased within what Bruce has to say. Readers on the inside of the FOF are likely to be driven more into an enclave of solidarity with their fellowship colleagues – those firmly rooted within the ‘should do this and that, since it is good for your evolution’ clique.
It is likely there are still those financial high-rollers ‘working on their income’ (I mean self!). It is also likely there are still those impoverished and reliant on a ‘salaried’ post at the headquarters. Any way these people look at it, they will have ‘I’s that want to stay (friendships rate here) and those that want to leave (the negatives, the undue pressure, the disgusting role in which they find themselves).
Strangely enough, there are far more ‘flavors’ to the lives of those who have left, been booted out – let’s face it – ESCAPED! We may not be at that stage/phase within this blog (although we have before) where ‘testimony of freedom’ is the correct method. I think that, even with the autonomy/identity wrangling apparent, we are still on the right track.
As many a poster has stated – “If only one more FOF member leaves today, that is a victory”.
“For to be free is not merely to cast off one’s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.”
― Nelson Mandela
You rock, ion.
I think it is one of the refreshing things about this blog that it doesn’t have a unified aim or point of view. It grew. There are probably no y posters with whom I would agree 100%, and by the same token almost none with whom I would disagree 100%. (I even quite enjoyed eye in the sky, but he/she was at the limit 🙂 This contrasts dramatically with the FoF, where openly voiced disagreement with a pronouncement of the teacher is tantamount to leaving the school. People who are still members often seem to take all blog posters as of the same view, but that doesn’t last long, as our various takes on everything are apparent. Those of us who left, have that in common, and little else can be taken for granted.
What kept me in the cult and “on the fence” after I realized I had to leave, was my connection to family and friends who were still in the FOF. I knew that I wouldn’t be able to see them after I left and I knew what my leaving would mean to them – it would be seen and interpreted as betrayal on my part, and of course I would be considered ‘anathema’ – just another “life person” to be shunned and beneath contempt for the “chosen people” on the FOF ‘ark.’ (When I tried to “rescue” my wife from the situation she quoted burton’s remark about my leaving, he said: “he doesn’t understand the system”).
As a good little cultist I had “dutifully” severed all human connections outside the FOF during the 5 years I lived at “the ranch.” After a brief stay at the Blake cottage I experienced first hand burton’s shenanigans and knew then what his “system” was about from the inside out. With that I knew I had to leave the FOF. But I lingered, I moved back in with my wife, and tried to reconcile what had happened…. but couldn’t.
So I jumped ship… and landed on my face… I won’t go over the details again, it’s already in the back pages here. Suffice it to say, before leaving I knew it would be difficult and that’s also partly why I lingered in the cult beyond the time I knew I had to leave – but I didn’t realize how difficult it would be to survive as an ‘island’ in “life.”
I guess the point of this brief rehash is to say this: my general “berating” of those who continue to stay in the FOF supporting and enabling burton, is an attempt to appeal to any shred of conscience which may still be functioning in a member who might be reading here.
I realize there’s a problem with that “appeal” on several levels… it assumes there is a functioning conscience after possibly years and decades of brainwashing… and berating, or playing the “guilt card” is probably not going to be very “appealing” in and of itself… (I guess that’s obvious but thanks nonetheless for pointing that out ION).
I tend to forget how difficult it was to leave… and I was only in the cult for 5 years. For those who have been in much longer than I, it must be that much more difficult to even consider a new life outside the cult.
I get where ION is coming from and I like the idea of taking a life-affirming approach toward fence sitters… what’s good about living “life” as opposed to what’s wrong with you people for paying your dues to a psychopathic sociopath… but if a person thinks they’re happy in their world then I suppose they’re happy.
If they’re not happy or satisfied, and if they have the courage, or gumption, or foolishness, or whatever it takes to “jump” then by all means… there’s a flavor-full world out beyond the psycho-emotional confines of the cult – but it has to be experienced, it has to be lived, I can’t describe it in a way that will make it a reality.
I wish I would have had the benefit of something like this forum when I’d left the cult – I’m pretty sure it would have gotten me off the fence sooner and I suspect it would have been a source of support which might have helped with my recovery…. but that was then, before internet… this is now.
An adaptation paraphrasing an old story:
…the freed prisoner would think that the real world was superior to the world in the cave; the escapee would feel blessed for the change, pity the other prisoners and would want to bring fellow cave dwellers out of the cave and into the sunlight.
But the eyes of the freed prisoner have by now become acclimated to the light of the sun, and would be blinded upon re-entering the cave, just as s/he was when first exposed to the sun.
The prisoners in the cave would infer from the escapee’s blindness that the journey out of the cave caused harm and that they should not undertake a similar journey.
Therefore, if they were able, the prisoners would reach out and kill anyone who attempted to drag them out of the cave.
Plato
I noticed ton2u’s comment from his wife about not understanding the system. The cult is fife with ‘system’ and systems and sub-systems. It is almost as though the prime aim of ‘Becoming Yourself’ is lost in Form, Fallacies and Forced Friendships. And I actually hope that, although it may be years later now, ton2u has found that strength that does not rely on others’ opinion, however close those others be. Often, as in my case now, one finds a ‘new family/bonded friends’ – who have trodden something similar to one’s path – who can support (not photograph) in times of dire need – who want you to be stronger than you dare to think possible.
The grand thing about the FOF is that you can live through it with NO RISK of questioning. Even the question of death, which I think ‘calls to us as we become older towards it’ is safely taken care of in that ‘one always has lifetimes’. There are many debates and commentaries on YouTube which force one to look into possibilities.
“The unrisked or unchallenged life is the life not worth living”.
Thanks again ION for a though-full response… although I address you directly here – rather than “sideways” – this is intended for any and all who may be interested enough not to scroll on by.
Maybe a bit more context… although there is criticism herein, this is to provide a little “testimony of freedom” as opposed to an inclination toward derision… I don’t know if it’s “the correct method” but it is another way…. as they say “there are many ways to skin a cat” – a horrible saying, but you’ll get the point.
When I left the cult I wrote a letter to burton to explain why… it wasn’t lengthy, it basically said that I was leaving because there was no attempt at a democratic process in the organization, that if all the decision making came from the top, from burton and his minions, it leaves out the largest part of the membership. I wrote that the “system” he had in place in effect excluded the majority of “Friends” with no consideration for the opinions or concerns – I’ll resist punning on “input” – from “ordinary” folks like me who labored in the field, for example…. or all those folks paying their dues who were supposedly also stakeholders in the organization.
I acknowledged in the letter that a more democratic approach to running the organization would be “messy” when it comes to taking into account the opinions of all members, there would be obvious challenges in restructuring the way decisions were made but the result would be a membership which feels included and emotionally invested in the organization… not just financially.
I realized later how naive that letter was, or how naive I was to hope it might actually change burton’s mind about how the FOF operates.
I gave the letter to my then future ex-wife who hand-delivered it to burton, he read it on the spot – his comment to her was, as stated previously: “he doesn’t understand the system.”
You see, the opinion of others does matter…. although relying on anyone’s opinion – including one’s own – is “iffy” since opinions tend to shift and change anyway. In this case, I was done with the FOF, I understood what I needed to about burton’s “system” and I had already checked-out emotionally. But his opinion of what I’d written influenced my future ex-wife to reject my efforts to free her from the cult… this other person’s opinion factored into the course my life would take from that point going forward.
I can say that I do rely on the opinion of others, does that make me weak? There may be truth in a cliche’ – “no man’s an island” comes to mind. To get along in life I’ve learned that compromise is part of the process of living, most everyone has an opinion and it’s important (to me) to listen and to take in what another thinks about a given situation – and when I have one, to offer my own opinion in the process. If I reject another’s opinion it says something about me and my own state of mind. Listening, and really hearing, is an act of love. Imo a gestalt of the dialectical process is part of what makes us human – this is something that’s missing in burton’s “system” and it’s what I tried to point out – in all sincerity – in my departure letter.
Yes Ion, I have met many others over the years who I consider “kindred spirits” – true friends whose opinions I value, I know I can rely on their opinions because of who they are… to me this is a source of strength. My community work has brought me into contact with some remarkable people, “ordinary” folks… “extra-ordinary” even… one quip that comes to mind was from E… we were “mind walking” one day when she said words to the effect: “you know, we’re not all that great alone (in isolation) – it takes others…”
etc
73 John Harmer
John makes an interesting point (and is somewhat ‘subwritten’ by ton2u). Although I do not think the blog is aimless, nor has a full-on (100%) aim, there are aspects of being one who has left (and, again, not making remarks of whether ton2u or many others made a smooth transition) that being ‘out’ gives ‘fresh air’. The restrictions of the FOF, as many have said, leave no room for radical thought and so hypnosis sets in. I believe those who have reached the 30 years membership are unlikely to leave. Maybe it is that there is too much at stake, but more so that the rot has set in good and proper.
Stepping outside is too dangerous for a long term FOF psyche.
President Elect Trump Taps Obscure Cult Leader for High Level Cabinet Position
Washington, DC (USA) – President Elect Donald Jackass Trump has made good on his campaign promise to clean up all the chaos, corruption, feminine dominance, immorality, greed and ignorance in American churches by appointing Robert E. Burton, a self-proclaimed minister known for such high moral stature that he is regarded as a god by his followers, to be the head of the new Office of Religious Affairs.
“I wanted the best, the greatest, someone HUGE, you know, in the spiritual”, Trump reportedly trumpeted to his inner circle, “Someone like me, who knows about affairs, and like me, isn’t ashamed to, you know, boast about it.”
Trump went on to say, “This guy says he’s the brightest light to shine in 2000 years, bigger than the pope, and everyone who meets him believes him, and that’s good enough for me. You should see his place! It’s FABULOUS! Sweet piece of real estate. Doesn’t have a golf course yet, but he’s got a nice vineyard. He likes Russians, too, AND he collects gold mirrors, just like me. He’s also got camels, the very, very best camels, he likes to eat meat, and his lawn sculpture is HUGE!”
Strangely, Burton, was unavailable for comment. Once referred to as the “American Gandhi” for his selfless spiritual work over the last four decades, Burton claims to work tirelessly day and night doing his ministering thing to the sick and needy, helping himself to the underage and poor, and providing meaningful, low paying jobs for newly trafficked immigrants, such as shining shoes and sucking cock.
His charitable organization, which has been renamed several times, was for many years known as the Fellowship of Friends, and was, along with himself, the subject of various lawsuits, all of which have been settled out of court for substantial sums of money and with absolutely no admission of guilt or wrongdoing.
Critics claim the group is not so charitable, spending lavishly on themselves and is anything but friendly, especially to those who disagree with their questionable spiritual practices.
“Trust me, I know people, and I can tell you Bob is going to give me the VERY best advice.” Trump stated. “I don’t care how he dresses or what people say about him on the internet. I’m so rich, I’m entitled to the BEST, and he says he IS the BEST. And hey, if I don’t like his advice, I’ll just do the opposite, like all the thousands of ex-members who left his group and are doing quite well, and then I’ll be fine either way, too, we’ll all be fine,” Trump said, yet again displaying his uncanny ability to turn a deaf ear to anyone who might challenge his decisions.
64. ton2u – October 5, 2016
” I hadn’t considered that some still hang on to the FOF because they believe they’re “keeping their aim” – despite the madness at its core… (but isn’t that intransigence simply more madness?).”
Old habits die hard. Take a look at the postings on the non-public site Greater Fellowship. Insider’s postings may be stimulating but they are hardly qualify as being indicative of someone still in the Fellowship of Friends. It’s clearly a long way for most everyone ‘to separate’ from the ‘work’ think-speak. If Insider is ‘mad’ then we’re all ‘mad’.
70. brucelevy – October 5, 2016
And the “lectures” are invariably by brave “anonymous” posters…because they have such profound integrity borne of having “worked on themselves” for so long, by not “deviating from their aims.”
Bruce, I want to understand your meaning here. Please forgive my not knowing, but do the quotes around the words “lectures” and “anonymous” mean that you don’t really consider the lectures to be lectures – or those who give them to be actually anonymous?
79. Golden Veil – October 8, 2016
“Insider’s postings may be stimulating but they hardly qualify as being indicative of someone still in the Fellowship of Friends. It’s clearly a long way for most everyone ‘to separate’ from the ‘work’ think-speak. If Insider is ‘mad’ then we’re all ‘mad’.
Re:…we’re all ‘mad’.”
Some more, some less – no? I’m sure you’ll agree there are degrees and different types of “madness.”
It sounds like you’re in the camp which still defends “the work” ? If so, to each their own, we all create our own meaning in life.
GV, sounds like you’re saying that Insider is not actually in ? If that’s the case, it would lead me to question the accuracy of the “inside” information s/he posts here… and again it raises a question re: motive.
I’ve assumed s/he is still a dues paying member but it’s a question that I’ve attempted to get a direct answer to – so far s/he’s avoided answering…. hope s/he hasn’t been scared off by the inquiry – s/he has nothing to fear from the truth.
81 ton2u
Being a bit abstract here, in approach…it was always THE SYSTEM APPROACH when I ‘was in’…you had a problem and the system said this or that. Most of the time, after the ‘photograph’ of your approach or actual behavior, you would skulk away, subdued and satisfied that you had had good advice (or the ‘buildings up’ of otherwise).
I think an honest heart and kind bearing in this world will EVENTUALLY find its emotional home. I do not mean that we will never have difficulties (going to the other end of the spectrum, a psychopath like Burton can demolish his difficulties), I think it means, as Rilke says…
“We see one another against a wider sky” (paraphrase) – Rilke –
With this in mind, we do not need to be too concerned that people are hiding in many ways (in this case, the blog). The momentum of honest dialogue and a scrutinizing nature will see this blog through in its purpose (and we all contribute to this).
Re: messiah or savior complex… a so-called “messiah” needs the participation of a “flock” enact his delusion outside of the boundary of his own delusions… he needs to recruit others to believe in his delusion.
This may be stating the obvious but I’ll “say” it anyway; the FOF / burtonism is a cult rooted in redeemer / salvationist ideology. In this burton plays the role of redeemer/ “messiah / savior” and through their allegiance his followers are promised and believe in some idea of “salvation.”
Burton is supposedly the single planetary link and ’channel’ of an imaginary, off-planet, disembodied coterie of GODS who dictate their designs on humanity through the mouthpiece of “conscious bob.” Being so close to the one-and-only direct connection with the GODs via burton, gives the the burtonites the illusion of a privileged position as the “chosen people” – they “enjoy” the imagined benefits of sharing in the delusion that they’re superior in relation to ordinary “life people.”
As has been mentioned here over the years, the FOF is a “garden variety” cult – meaning it is common and not at all special. There are many such cults that have sprouted and continue to sprout from the compost of a socio/mythos/paradigm based on the 3 Abrahamic religions… burtonism is but one of a multitude of the cults that come and go… what it has in common with so many other cults of this ilk is some permutation of this redeemer salvationist ideology… in this case, burton is the redeemer – follow him and believe the fabrications that come out of his deranged psyche and you’ll be saved from “life” and gain redemption in an imagined future lifetime.
ion, I don’t mean to bring down these beautiful thoughts about an honest heart and kindness… thank you for this… nevertheless…. This addresses the other end of the stick, i.e. the difficulties encountered in living life… it speaks somewhat to what you said earlier:
57. ion – October 4, 2016
“Burton will meet his demise (probably, soon). The wheels of ‘trafficking in human psyches’ will continue due to those who have been groomed for roles. The FOF is an indefinite ‘fools factory’ and we are still part of it unless we have seriously walked away from it, physically and internally.”
Re: “walking away from it” – “it” is not just the FOF, there’s the pervasive and seeming ubiquity of this ‘trafficking in human psyches’ to consider, which apparently is part of a social ‘fabric’ – take something like as obvious as politics for example. And so the saying “pick your poison” changes to “choose your delusion… or, does IT choose you?”
“In the enmeshment of the victim-perpetrator bond, victims typically seek reconciliation with the perpetrators, not only because reconciliation falsely allays the pain of intolerable injustice and harm done insanely and without cause — harm that can never be made right, even by God — but even more so because the reconciling spirit allows the victim to feel proud, regain a modicum of dignity, and remain on higher moral ground than the perpetrator. In short, reconciliation is a terrific way to keep the bond intact. You can count on it. The perpetrators always do.
To avoid pathological relapse into the victim-perpetrator syndrome,
there can be no compromise with perpetrators or the beliefs through
which they disguise and implement their actions.”
etc
ton2u
Although I can ‘feel’ your certainties about FOF – my experiences, although there were negative ones, were more on the surface. I feel at this point, I need to give the blog 3 days’ rest. I am sure others will offer stimulating and deep thought about our past and destinies. May you continue.
80. Golden Veil
Just using the quotation marks like “air” quotation marks to emphasize the specific smugness and hypocrisy that we sometimes see here, especially from newly freed ex-members who are still carrying around their BS and baggage. Frequently with a side order of narcissism after having swollowed the BS for so long and suddenly seeing the light, and feeling that they have an important message for us. Sometimes they do, but they’re not the people I’m talking about.
Long time “old” members that leave, who had apparent credibilitly in the cult seem to think their bullshit still has weight after they leave. They are student teachers imparting thie wisdom on the fallen. Fuck them, and their message. But hey, believe that shit if it gets you through the night.
1. ton2u – October 8, 2016
“I’ve assumed s/he is still a dues paying member but it’s a question that I’ve attempted to get a direct answer to – so far s/he’s avoided answering…. hope s/he hasn’t been scared off by the inquiry – s/he has nothing to fear from the truth.”
Re: above excerpt from your post
I see that it is your opinion that s/he (Insider) has “nothing to fear from the truth.” That presumption is for me, is on the same scale as the naivety of those who sometimes write on the blog, “Why be an anonymous poster on the blog? What’s the problem with posting under your own name?” Well, there are many issues why someone may not want to answer personal questions or want their employer, neighbor, relatives, friends to know that they were in a cult.
You wrote:
“GV, sounds like you’re saying that Insider is not actually in ? If that’s the case, it would lead me to question the accuracy of the “inside” information s/he posts here… and again it raises a question re: motive.”
I have absolutely no idea who Insider is or whether they are a current dues paying member or not. But I do think that people that post here generally are former members – unless they are of the ilk of a troll-like instigator such as REB’s lieutenant Linda whatever-her-name-is writing as Daily Cardiac. I have not seen posts that have at least the appearance of sincere sharing – come from someone who is a current member. But, I’ve only been following this blog since around 2010 – and I have never read it from its beginning. I remember there was a woman posting here that re-joined – and that was real shock. She was in Oregon House and socializing with members quite a lot.
Anyway, back to Insider. I surmise that someone who seems to know a lot about the inner workings of the FoF could just as well be a recently exited member – with close ties still in the FoF.
And as far as this statement of yours:
“It sounds like you’re in the camp which still defends “the work” ? If so, to each their own, we all create our own meaning in life.”
You may have a tendency to over presume. You are way off the mark. I am no defender of REB’s hare-brained interpretations of Asian, Christian, Gurdjieff/Ouspensky/Collin work/philosophy or psychotic poop and license plate readings, the number 44, or Influence C. I don’t have fond memories of the friendships I formed at teaching houses, either. I may spout a bit of work language now and then (as a short hand to make a point), as many do, but I am no defender,
Why am I posting here? There are many reasons people post here, For me it is not to debrief or decompress, express pain that I feel or delight in my freedom; to try to recover from sexual abuse or P.T.S.D. I am just here in support of publicizing that the man at the helm of the Fellowship of Friends is a probable narcissistic sexual predator and a psychopath – who selfishly uses his students for money and sex.
For me, this blog is a kind of billboard or signpost at times – to warn those who have been seduced into attending an jntroductory meeting – so that they might have a chance to be forewarned of future brain washing and mind control, self repression, and getting fleeced of their dough. To point out that though the environment seems attractive and welcoming – that one might even get “love bombed” as in “You must be special – because you are here.” “Many are called, few are chosen.” or whatever the current drivel is, that they should watch out! It’s b.s., a fairytale, and a dangerous dreamland.
Back to:
“I’ve assumed s/he is still a dues paying member but it’s a question that I’ve attempted to get a direct answer to – so far s/he’s avoided answering…. hope s/he hasn’t been scared off by the inquiry – s/he has nothing to fear from the truth.”
If a newcomer to this blog is processing their pending or recent exit from the mind control, I don’t want to pressure them with prying questions or chastise them for writing what they want/need to write here.
85. brucelevy – October 8, 2016
Thank you for your detailed answer. Yep, I should have got that!
Learning the mechanics of how to write is an ongoing process for me.
I remember the heavy control and judgement that persisted all around me – and was often directed to me – in the Fellowship of Friends; it was no party. Still, I was affected big time because although my membership was short – I was seriously immersed in it all. Thankfully I got caught up in it for only about a year, I left without really knowing the skinny on old REB.
If I had been sucked into the Fellowship for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, god knows what my recovery would have entailed. Still, I remember that I had a tendency to proselytize, and was critical of others; I thought I knew something the “life people” didn’t. I think that my work book reading, art leanings, and Bohemian mentality led me into the Fellowship, and my “know it all” nature from childhood played in to all the restrictive judgement I still felt as I left and manifested on the outside in my interactions with others for some time…
6 Signs Your Partner Is Cheating On You With Burton
Cheating, or infidelity is the act of being unfaithful to your spouse or sexual partner. Common in monogamous relationships in the Fellowship, cheating can have immense emotional and, in some cases physical repercussions for those involved.
It has been estimated that upwards of 98.7% of men in the Fellowship have gotten at least one blowjob from Burton. While some consider only sexual intercourse or oral sex as cheating, there are others who take kissing, hugging, or fawning over Burton as cheating.
“Sometimes one partner is unhappy with their status and an intimate relationship with their lord and master makes them feel alive and special in a way they haven’t felt since all the love bombing they first experienced when they joined,” Linda Kaplan an unlicensed marriage and family counselor in Oregon House told us in an email. “More often than not cheating with Burton has nothing to do with you or your partner’s evolution.”
There are a few key indicators that may require you to assess the trap your partner and you are in.
An increase in lying.
A sudden increase in special trips and dinners with Burton that your partner is obligated to attend without you, especially if it is not a common occurrence, can indicate that he may be clearing his schedule for someone else who is way more important than you are to him.
This comes with a bag of elaborate excuses and an unconscious effort to convince you that he is on an accelerated path toward awakening. In many cases, it starts as just impromptu trips to Burton’s residence for special “errands” at odd times or an increase in “boy’s night out”.
More time on the phone.
The amount of time your significant other spends on his phone may increase dramatically if he is having an affair with Burton. Routinely walking out of the room to take calls because of “poor connectivity” or because he does not want to disturb your sleep-especially when he comes in late in the evenings with his fly undone is an indicator.
Increased distance – both physical and emotional.
He may refuse to go out for your regular engagements and try to get out of spending time together, staying out for much longer periods of time than he usually does. Sexual activity between the two of you may decrease dramatically. Even when he is around physically, his mind is not really present in the moment.
Changes in appearance.
Spending a lot more time than he usually does on his appearance can be another warning sign. Dressing better, wearing expensive shoes and clothes that Burton has gifted him, using more cologne, as well as a sudden increase of washing his hands and brushing his teeth are all indicators. He usually makes additional efforts to ensure that you do not find signs of his affair, like by hand-washing his own underwear in private.
Being too nice, aggressive, or depressed.
Being too affectionate all of a sudden may be a way for him to allay his guilty conscience, if he has one left. This can range from letting you choose the wine to buying you expensive jewelry and dinners.
On the other hand, there is also the possibility of your significant other expressing more negativity at you more often, possibly even accusing you of being a lesbian or engaging in feminine dominance. He can be easily irritable and snap regularly due to the inner conflict of engaging in homosexual sex which is not his preference. He may also seem sad or suddenly burst into tears and be unwilling to talk to you about it.
Friends or others dropping hints.
Do not ignore the signs you get from those outside the Fellowship, if you are allowed contact with them, or if you notice an increase in those who smile at you, especially if they have been in the Fellowship for a long, long time. They obviously know something that you do not. Don’t expect them to make any attempts to warn you directly, because they genuinely don’t care about you.
90. WhaleRider
RB has his “type” of prey. I doubt 98.7% is anywhere near the truth. He likes pretty, malliable, frequently somewhat feminine or solarish types. That makes up a pretty small percentage of the total males.
90 WhaleRider
Just a thank you, there.
CORRECTION: 98.7% of pretty, malliable, frequently somewhat feminine or solar type men in the Fellowship have gotten at least one blowjob from Burton.
Thanks for the fact checking, Bruce.
93. WhaleRider
That sounds about right.
Regardless of whether you’re male or female, regardless of your “type,” regardless of whether he’s had your penis in his mouth, or in his ass – one way or another, in a real sense he’s fucked with everyone who’s gone through the FOF.
It’s difficult to determine who’s the bigger blowhard, Donald Trump or Robert Burton.
95. ton2u
Also sounds about right.
96. Tim Campion
The King and the Queen.
Trump and Burton together? Even that scandal probably wouldn’t sway the hardliners.
A comment in the NY Times yesterday regarding an article about Trump:
“With any party, faction, culture or religion that demands strict loyalty, orthodoxy, and adherence to the protection of the group, two great dangers are present. First, there is the danger that the demand for purity of the members will create a closed faction, but then inevitably lead to in-fighting to define whom amongst the faithful is the purest, and therefore most deserving of the mantle of leadership and privilege. The second danger is that in the name of protecting the group against the spotlight of open questions regarding that purity, the faithful will protect those who have fallen [i.e., accused of wrongdoing], perhaps grievously, to maintain the facade that all who are in the group are indeed among the truly faithful. It is this second danger that poses the greatest risk to the members themselves because it allows for the spawning of unchecked abuses against the most vulnerable of the group.”
99/100 Oscar
Without wishing to hark back on that ‘super-mystic’, Gurdjieff stated that among the aims of gaining consciousness (here we could argue and bitch at length on the meaning of this term) was the attaining of true individuality. Although still open to debate from all quarters, this individuality is more than 99% not likely in FOF and even in ‘life’ (regardless of whether one joins another, shall we say, more authentic way), it is still, as Oscar quoted – ‘e pluribus unum’ – thus saying that what one ‘feels’ as one’s individuality can be prone to societal trends, politics and even fashion (in the broadest term). I think Shakespeare (and this quote has been used many times on this blog) saw the action that leads to the man (human)…..
“Above all unto thine own self be true
And it shall follow as the day, the night,
Thou can’st not be false to any man”
Thus returning to Oscar and I hope not negating him, it is imperative that, wherever our standing in life (social or financial) we are always reflecting back to our conscience (in ourselves), tackling situations with humility, grace and courage.
Formula for eventually discovering reality–always have this question at the ready: “Exactly how am I inevitably wrong about this subject?”
102 Mind Out of Rhyme
Being true to oneself does not preclude being wrong about a subject/situation. It may even underpin the doubt involved and may even circumscribe the understanding.
You have to ask yourself (by way of being ‘true’)…having spent some time in a really silly cult where the main motion of actual material reality is money paid to the leader in exchange for ridiculous fantasies (thus enabling said leader to use wealth and power to spend his time primarily enticing cocks into his mouth and backside) am I really some kind of authority on the subject of ‘truth to self’?
Am I ever suddenly, permanently or even temporarily, actually in the position of knowing either truth or myself? Am I ever capable of being even remotely true to my forever–from one minute to the next–shifting self?
I was reading an article today about a major paradigm shift that is about to occur in the Daesh cult, involving a battle for the the Northern Syrian town of Dabiq, which for the cult has been prophesied to herald the Apocalypse.
The town “is central to the highly sophisticated propaganda operation of the extremist group”, where “the ultimate battle between Christians and Muslims will be fought”.
Daesh is supposed to prevail in this epic battle, according to their cult leader.
The Turks (and others) have now begun their advance on Dabiq and expect to engage in battle within about 48 hours from now.
Odds are stacked against Daesh, and if they retreat and are as unsuccessful in holding towns as they have been lately, apparently they have “already prepared the ground ideologically for the loss. The end of the state and the return to the deserts is part of the cycle…until conditions for revival are favorable.”
[It] “also means that they can just say this is one more test for the believers, and the grand contest will come next time.”
This sounded familiar to me and a common refrain for cults after failed prophecies. “It was just a test.” When in reality, it’s a race to the bottom. How far would you lower your morals to prove your faith?
“Daesh…has built its myth in Dabiq, exploiting the ignorance and lack of knowledge among people and taking advantage of history and religion to achieve its evil project.”
burton is building myth, too. Doggie style, for sure. So his followers and everyone else can kiss his ass…which for some reason is very prominent in the photo op…
Mind Out of Rhyme
I do agree there is much of ‘being wrong…way wrong’ about things and situations in one’s journey through life. But there is, somehow for some of us, probably after a great deal of doing stupid things like joining up for a cult (“This is the way to be yourself, squirt”), being intellectually and emotionally off balance – a way through which we – I can only describe it – find our center. It is letting life mature us as we search for that certain goal by which we want to live our final years. A school cannot give us that – no form or organization can. Only allowing experiences to reach the core of our being can.
There is no higher dimension where consciousness can exist outside the brain activity functioning within the human skull. The insistence that there is consciousness outside the mind is a fantasy produced by the brain activity functioning within the skull. All this is established according the Standard Model.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model
Higher consciousness is a pretend world where magic seems possible. It is fantasy, mathematically/scientifically improbable. The typical undisciplined, unscientific human mind operating within the absolute darkness of the braincase is a naturally prolific liar.
-standard model-
Call that an explanation? I have gone through
“The Atheist Experience”
Christopher Hitchens”
“Sam Harris”
stuff. Yes, it makes sense and, especially with regard to exploding religion. But if you, like them, think that we are bone/meat/liquids and electricity – and just that – we would have an argument and I would not find it useful having dialogue.
There are massive detection devices that can sense the passage of something so small that it can move through the entire Earth and never run into another particle of matter. These tiny particles are called neutrinos. If there was something like a human soul moving around outside a physical body such a phenomenon would have been detected by science by now.
https://home.cern/about/how-detector-works
109
This, and your previous, do not interest me. To quote Robert Earl Burton – “I would rather read Shakespeare”. You have the floor, as they say in debates. Maybe other bloggers could respond
“Scientists can detect matter, but what does the matter?”
This is why and how cults proliferate. They depend on and populate themselves with anti-scientific people possessing little or no scientific education.
Yadda yadda, no soup for you.
#107 Mind Out of Rhyme, I agree with everything you say. A point that sometimes seems to get lost in the debate about the nature of reality, and how, in its realm, science reigns supreme, is that THAT fact in no way diminishes the astounding and inexplicable brute reality that there is a world at all, and that we are conscious within that world.
111. Mind Out of Rhyme
Can you cite any study that supports these statements? If the Fellowship is at all typical of cults (and I think it is), it’s clear that a scientific background does not necessarily inoculate someone from believing in Burton’s teaching (or most any other “anti-scientific” religious teaching for that matter.) The Fellowship had its share of members trained in the sciences. Having studied physics and astronomy myself, I was amazed in retrospect that I had applied no rigorous testing to the b.s. I was being fed. To this day I wonder, “How did that acceptance come so effortlessly?”
(‘ton and Jomopinata can probably explain.)
I certainly felt Robert Burton was “anti-scientific,” or at least he demonstrated no scientific understanding or even curiosity. (The omission was pretty glaring as he prepared his followers to build a new civilization following Armageddon.)
Keep in mind that patients that come out of a propofol induced state of coma remember nothing. They were for all purposes turned completely off.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/01/consciousness-may-be-product-carefully-balanced-chaos
Once again the all knowing Wikipedia hath spoken.Thanx for providing the link to debunk Steiner. It only proved to me what an interesting and profound person he was,in the gurdjieff mode of thinking methinks.
brucelevy, did anyone ever told you that you are the most ugly disgusting dog? I don’t want your soup. Anytime you fart you kill an angel. Surprise me by your answer.
This blog is useless. It’s like if a suicidal person calls a hotline and they start laughing. Not helping. You are not kind and you don’t care. Have a good life. Pathetic!
Does anyone find it entirely preposterous that California was going to fall into the Pacific Ocean and Oregon House, California, was going to be ocean front property, in 1998? (Which is what Robert Earl Burton had been predicting.)
That would have meant that the ocean would have to rise some 2000 feet from where it has been lately, or, Oregon House vicinity would have to go down in elevation, or, some combination of the two.
Since the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range, where Oregon House is located, has been rising, due to crustal uplift, for some 3 million years, which is relatively quick in geological time frames, and is still rising in recent times, how can any reasonable person believe such prediction?
Now, I would have to admit that a celestial body the size of, let us say, the Moon, could crash into the Pacific and possibly cause that scenario. But, not very likely.
Just because there is evidence, geologically, that some of these Sierra Nevada mountains were once covered by ocean (sea shells found in excavations as near as Auburn vicinity near Oregon House, for instance), does not prove the principle that Oregon House belongs near or under the sea. (Nor does the evidence that the California central valley was repeatedly under water several times in geological eons prove the principle.)
Maybe, what Robert Earl Burton meant was that the heart of the School was going to be under the ‘C,’ as in: Influence C. Or, maybe, under the influence of something else, like fanta-c.
Under the Sea 3:13:
“Ariel, listen to me
The human world. . . It’s a mess
Life under the sea is better
Than anything they got up there
Lyrics
[Samuel E. Wright]
The seaweed is always greener
In somebody else’s lake
You dream about going up there
But that is a big mistake
Just look at the world around you
Right here on the ocean floor
Such wonderful things surround you
What more is you lookin’ for?
Under the sea
Under the sea
Darling it’s better
Down where it’s wetter
Take it from me
Up on the shore they work all day
Out in the sun they slave away
While we devotin’
Full time to floatin’
Under the sea
Down here all the fish is happy
As off through the waves they roll
The fish on the land ain’t happy
They sad ’cause they in their bowl
But fish in the bowl is lucky
They in for a worser fate
One day when the boss get hungry
Guess who’s gon’ be on the plate?
Under the sea
Under the sea
Nobody beat us
Fry us and eat us
In fricassee
We what the land folks loves to cook
Under the sea we off the hook
We got no troubles
Life is the bubbles
Under the sea (Under the sea)
Under the sea (Under the sea)
Since life is sweet here
We got the beat here
Naturally (Naturally)
Even the sturgeon an’ the ray
They get the urge ‘n’ start to play
We got the spirit
You got to hear it
Under the sea
The newt play the flute
The carp play the harp
The plaice play the bass
And they soundin’ sharp
The bass play the brass
The chub play the tub
The fluke is the duke of soul
(Yeah)
The ray he can play
The lings on the strings
The trout rockin’ out
The blackfish she sings
The smelt and the sprat
They know where it’s at
An’ oh that blowfish blow
Yeah, under the sea (Under the sea)
Under the sea (Under the sea)
When the sardine
Begin the beguine
It’s music to me (It’s music to me)
What do they got? A lot of sand
We got a hot crustacean band
Each little clam here
Know how to jam here
Under the sea
Each little slug here
Cuttin’ a rug here
Under the sea
Each little snail here
Know how to wail here
That’s why it’s hotter
Under the water
Ya we in luck here
Down in the muck here
Under the sea”
Get outa the bowl
Don’t lose your soul
No fricassee for me
Now that I’m free 😉
Ill Never Tell,
Of course the prophecy is as preposterous now as when Burton first began proclaiming it in the 1970s. Like Mind Out of Rhyme, you appear to be a reasonable “pro-science” fellow. What caused you to abandon your critical thinking faculties and follow an obviously delusional leader who routinely made this and many other preposterous claims? (For example, that Burton and his followers would hunker down in the winery as a nuclear holocaust obliterated the rest of humanity, and would then emerge to found a new civilization.)
Perhaps I missed the occasions when you publicly explained to Burton the scientific absurdity of such scenarios and encouraged him to retract his statements?
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/buddha141565.html
Note that there are many thousands of “esoteric geniuses” advertising themselves throughout history and around the world, but there are only a few hundred scientific geniuses at most. The difference is that in science you not only have to show your math, but also verify the phenomenon the math predicts through instrumentation and experimentation. Science has to prove itself in an inherently hostile environment of skepticism. Spirituality sucks up naive, romantic and idealistic believers like a sponge and spits out worldviews as routinely as newspaper headlines.
There was no Buddha in reality. It is a myth.
Mad Cult Member. “This blog is useless.”
A lot of it absolutely is useless–the Nonsense Generator was turned on to full volume further up the page. So it’s not the best place to converse if that’s what you’re looking for. That said, some of the commentary is pretty good if you’re selective about what you read. Take care – You’re not alone.
-Former Mad Cult Member
Tim @ 114… I was reading something today I’ll partially paraphrase:
“To learn we must be free to err, to make mistakes, for in correcting our mistakes we advance the process of learning in a way unique to our species. we evolve precisely because of (our) extraordinary scope of error…. We evolve not iust by learning, as all sentient creatures do, but especially by learning from our mistakes. The exceptionally wide latitude for error typifies human singularity, the ennoia (intentionality) inherent to our species. But if we allow our mistakes to go undetected and uncorrected, we demonstrate the singularity of our species in a destructive way, a deviant way.”
Mad Cult Member
I agree with Oscar,this isn’t the best place to converse and sometimes is useless.
“You are not kind and you don’t care.”
I’m not sure about the kindness, but I’m pretty sure many on this blog are here to try and help people trapped in the Fellowship to escape.
“The Blog” is just made of different people,each poster has a different approach and a different”style” but
if you scroll back you will find some kind and supportive posts addressed to you and Insider.
You are not alone, just help us to help you.
“Mind Out of Rime”, our know it all “scientist “and Wikipedia Guru,reminds me of “In charge of the cyanide hole”(see page 153 of blog)
He did a very good job , diverted the attention from Insider and Mad Cult Member and redirected it on his favorite subjects:Wikipedia and his superior mind
Cristalclear,
Your PPBD (Pseudo-Profound Bullshit Detector) appears to be well calibrated.
ton2u,
Thanks for all you bring.
118. Mad Cult Member – October 13, 2016
This blog is useless.
What do you expect? We are people who spent years—years—in a cult run by a psychotic spewing out insanity which each of us took to heart in most cases for well more than a decade. Those speaking here are the lunatic fringe, the dregs of the human mind.
There is not one creature here who is even remotely “crystal clear”. The minds of cult people, like carny scum, are defective from birth or we would not have ended up as paying followers of Burton.
128. Mind Out of Rhyme
” We are people who spent years—years—in a cult run by a psychotic spewing out insanity which each of us took to heart in most cases for well more than a decade. Those speaking here are the lunatic fringe, the dregs of the human mind.”
I think it would be more politic if you just spoke for yourself mf’er.
Then there are those who actually had sex with Burton. A whole other breed of wrong.
Mind Out of Rhyme
One thing is crystal clear: I know bullshit when I see it .
130. Mind Out of Rhyme
That’s true. But if you think that’s a discreet, finite point rather then a whole spectrum of reasons,situations and happenstance, then clearly you are a narrow, narcissitic, possibly borderline damaged person.
And maybe not even borderline.
Is that you Greg? How many times have you been thrown off this blog? 10, 20 times? You must realize that this is pathological. And it’s only a matter of time before you spill your beans, you can’t help yourself.. It’s inevitable. Unless there’s another asshole just like you.
“One thing is crystal clear: I know bullshit when I see it.”
People spend years paying Burton for his crazy teaching then try to convince others that they “know bullshit when they see it”. Odd.
The Buddha was a myth–did not exist in reality. Sorry if this is bad news for you.
I have nothing to do with Buddha,and I didn’t spend “years and years” or”more than a decade” in the Fellowship.You obviously know nothing about me so better shut up.
I was referring to your bullshit.
How many years did you spend paying burton for his crazy teaching by the way?
Regarding Burton’s recent suggestion that he’s in contact with “the Absolute” (see above)… To put this in perspective, the estimated number of galaxies in the known universe is now at least 2 trillion, not the 200 billion previously believed. NASA made the announcement today:
http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/hubble-reveals-observable-universe-contains-10-times-more-galaxies-than-previously-thought
Trump followers try to rationalize his actions (“locker room banter” etc). Burton followers do something similar. Many of them might believe him about the Absolute, or even believe there is such a thing as an Absolute, but many others probably don’t take his claims very seriously. (“I didn’t come here because of his predictions, or because he thinks we’re an ark,” is a common refrain. a.k.a., a common “buffer.”)
No, you went there to be led by someone with delusions of grandeur, as did each of us who joined up and drank the hopefully metaphorical kool-aid. Just leave–it’s really easier than you might think. It’s safe, and the universe, and it’s 2 trillion galaxies, welcomes you.
“I was referring to your bullshit.”
Fabulously intelligent to call something bullshit without being specific about what you mean and why. Very astute. Brilliantly vague and insightful. Highly articulate. Highbrow critique.
138. Mind Out of Rhyme
Greg, you’re back, like a bad penny. Crawl back ino you medicated ( or not) hole. You are like a perverse study in psychopathology.
If anyone reading this has been manipulated into having sex with burton as I have, you have my heartfelt sympathies. We are not alone.
There are obviously quite a few of us…who might share the same regret, anger, and shame.
I don’t know about you, bro, but witnessing the very public display and repercussions of trump’s predatory, sociopathic behavior toward others, especially women, really disgusts me.
The human suffering that trump has left in his wake is becoming more and more apparent each passing day, and it stokes the same moral outrage I feel towards burton’s inhumane behavior.
“I play to people’s fantasies. People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration—and it’s a very effective form of promotion.”
~The Art of the Deal
“truthful hyperbole” is an oxymoron. It’s really just a sociopath’s justification for lying and for deceiving others. Of course, burton in his way portrays himself as the greatest and most spectacular, too.
To hear trump threatening and devaluing the women who were brave enough to stand up for themselves makes me angry, as well. Is there any wonder why victims remain silent? Who is going to listen to them? I can empathize.
And notice how trump’s formally silent victims talk about being appalled when they hear him lie in public, and one by one start to speak out when they can no longer contain the feelings…as both trump and burton hide behind a moat of money in their ivory towers, surrounded by dependent sycophants, whose livelihood depend upon defending the castle.
It is said that anger directed at oneself leads to depression, which is the psychological mechanism that the perp does the most damage by his actions. It’s hard to speak out when you are depressed.
And yet it is precisely the collective anger of the victims directed in an appropriate manner, coupled their thirst for justice, that stops a successful sociopath, one who is adept at exploiting legal loopholes and grey areas.
“Truth and Reconciliation” can only begin when the perp stops their criminal behavior and faces their victims.
It makes me sick to my stomach when trump says he can do anything because he is rich and a star; I think about how far burton has gotten with the same mindset.
Both should be in jail.
I just learned today that trump along with another man are facing allegations of raping a minor as burton once did. The case is pending and has a hearing set for December, after the election…when reality sets in.
How “special” is burton?
While we are marveling at Burton’s freshest insanities, let us not forget one of his more dangerous protégés, Asaf Braverman.
If you have arrived here because you are researching Asaf Braverman’s online ‘school’ at beperiod.com (or any of
his many other “Ark in Time” websites), you probably have questions you may have about him and his qualifications to teach about practical spiritual matters. So, I’ll dive right in.
Firstly, I posit that Asaf Braverman and his new internet ‘school’ and associated websites (Ark in Time series) are deeply flawed because Asaf’s teacher, Robert Earl Burton, is himself a fraud and a charlatan (I know, this is just an assertion on my part, so if you haven’t already done so, I recommend you explore this blog—and other sources—and see if you agree). If you have done that research, and do agree, then it inevitably follows that most of what Braverman knows and purports to pass on to you, he has learned from a fraud. Not only that, Asaf is still a member of Burton’s organization, and thus directly supports the continuing fraud both psychologically and materially. This also means, of course, that he has not graduated or individuated himself even if it were possible to do so (you should know that not one person has ever graduated from Burton’s organization with his permission or blessing since he started the sham ‘school’ in 1971. Burton needs his followers as a continuous source of narcissistic supply and funds, and thus to be dependent on him for the rest of their lives).
My second point: there are solid claims that Asaf Braverman has had a sexual relationship with Robert Burton. Several of these are documented on previous pages. (One notable one is by Paola Evelina G, posted on this blog in May 2007. Paola was unusual in that she used her own name with a contact e–mail address. At the time, several members of the Fellowship of Friends attacked her interpretation of events, but not the events themselves, including the claim that Asaf Braverman had sex with Burton.) Given this, and knowing of Burton’s appetites, proclivities, and history, I think it highly likely that Asaf did have sex with Burton, but of course I don’t have direct knowledge. So I’ll address the argument both ways. IF the claims are true, this means that Asaf fell for whatever the sales pitch was, whether the claim that the select band of angels supposedly guiding the Fellowship of Friends demanded his submission, or that having sex with Burton would accelerate his spiritual evolution—or both. The point is, that if Asaf Braverman’s weaknesses allowed him to submit, those weaknesses were presented to him at the time as being strengths, and from then onwards there was no reason for him to think otherwise; having sex with Burton was and is normalized and even idealized within the Fellowship of Friends. In that case, Asaf Braverman’s weaknesses would have been ‘baked in’. Because these weaknesses are mistaken for strengths, this means that Asaf would not be qualified, and would never be qualified, to teach others anything about recognizing these weaknesses and working with them in any constructive way.
However, if these claims are not true, this only changes things in degree. As of the date of this writing, mid–2016, he is still a long–time member of the Fellowship of Friends, and he knows that Burton forces himself on his male heterosexual followers. From my POV, it doesn’t matter if the recipients of Burton’s attention appear to agree, state that they agree, or actually do agree, the difference in psychological power between a leader who claims the authority of ‘higher forces’ (and now the approval of the Absolute!) and a supplicant who has been convinced that only absolute obedience is the key to his personal spiritual salvation is simply too great to overcome.
In my opinion, the way Burton uses overwhelming psychological force to overcome the natural disinclinations of a large number of young heterosexual men followers is a species of rape. In the U.S., such a physical or psychological imbalance is recognized and forbidden by law in almost other areas where great differentials in power occur (such as in schools, academia, psychiatry, psychology, the armed forces, and so on), but not in the singular case of religious relationships if both parties are adults.
The point of all this? Asaf Braverman by his inaction has condoned this ongoing rape, <B and shown that if he has a conscience at all, it is not very strong; otherwise he’d leave, or protest (and get thrown out) . My question to you is, why would you want such a person to teach you about your internal world, your psychology—let alone conscience? I’m not judging Braverman as a person (I’ve never even met him), nor am I claiming any superiority—I’m judging his qualifications to teach. I’m saying that he is unqualified to be any kind of spiritual teacher— just as I am also unqualified (after all, I condoned what Burton did for eight years after I found out about his actions; it took me those eight years before I realized that I had to try to make amends).
Thirdly, Burton proudly declaims that:
Although Asaf Braverman’s website does mention the word conscience here and there (after all, he has read Ouspensky, who claims that spiritual evolution means that consciousness and conscience must be developed equally and in parallel), I believe he only uses the word as bait for those exploring the Fourth Way. Why? Because his teacher, Robert Burton, has, by his words and a lifetime of example, demonstrated that he actually knows nothing and cares less about conscience; this is natural, since he probably doesn’t have one. Ergo, he has taught Asaf nothing about conscience, and it follows that Asaf is not qualified, and never will be qualified, to teach others anything about recognizing or contacting their consciences; he has been at best misled and at worst corrupted by his completely corrupt teacher. The way I see it, only someone who has learned to recognize their conscience and has acted on their conscience knows enough to pass on pointers, and Asaf, by virtue of supporting the psychological, spiritual, material and sexual crimes of Burton in the past and in the present, disqualifies himself absolutely from teaching about it.
So: run, don’t walk, from Asaf Braverman and his Ark in Time network! At best, it is a waste of your time, energy and money. At worst, it’s a like a ‘gateway drug’, a path that may lead to being sucked (literally and metaphorically) into the Fellowship of Friends and under the influence of a remorseless sexual and financial predator who compares himself favorably to Christ—and now, in his raving delirium, the Absolute (no kidding, see previous entries earlier on this page!).
AG kudos for bringing the blog back to a meaningful purpose other than trading insults.Upon further investigation into Steiner I can understand why some may feel a certain crazy. Still many thought inspiring ideas.One interesting fellow I found on youtube is sadhguru.
Tim @ 127 re: “Thanks for all you bring.”
Any occasional posts here “pale in comparison” to what you do at this site:
https://robertearlburton.blogspot.com
Thanks again for all your work on this issue.
141 Ames Gilbert
I am proudly behind AG and his factual reportage of Asaf Braverman’s connection with Burton and the way both of them are co-supportive. Not wanting to be racist, but knowing there is truth behind this remark, I would say that there is some Jewish/Israeli wish for power/money in organizations – in this case the FOF. Abraham Goldman showed, until his demise, that he was strongly pro-FOF.
Likewise, in ‘life’ we had Henry Kissinger, whom many thought should have been brought to trial for ‘war crimes’.
I do not know how much Braverman is being supported financially or in terms of that which Burton plied into him (he has emailed me a few times, until he realized he was not going to get a $50.00 a month subscription out of me) – likewise Abraham Goldman informed me that any financial obligation on the part of the FOF that might be sought was negated under the statute of limitations and I should seek ‘professional help’ – this was on his letter headed paper.
Likewise, seeming racist, I think that Jews have a startling ability to ‘turn any situation to their advantage’, by ‘climbing into the tree of authority’ and making money out of it. They love organizations (not individuals) for the mere sake that an advantage may be made of them.
Please forgive me, any Semitic folk, in or out of the FOF, whose conscience has outgrown their need for gain and authority, but I do think this is a subject, based on the peculiarities of Braverman, which needs to be addressed.
“I think that Jews have a startling ability to ‘turn any situation to their advantage’, by ‘climbing into the tree of authority’ and making money out of it.”
Like the Queen of England?
No. Name Net worth (USD)
1 Bill Gates $79.2 billion
2 Carlos Slim $77.1 billion
3 Warren Buffett $72.7 billion
4 Amancio Ortega $64.5 billion
None of these top richest people are Jews. How do you explain it?
145 Mind Out of Rhyme
“UUUhhh??? The exclusivity explains the fact?
How do you explain ‘Oppenheimer’s deadly toy’? (The Police).
We could go on for blog pages (Einstein etc.) debating that what Asaf Braverman is doing is Cuban. It does not denounce the fact that AB is part of what some famous quark announced as ‘the Jewish problem’.
By the way, are the Israelis in the Holy Land not monopolising by land seizure?
I don’t self-identify as – in your words – “semitic folk,” and I’m not here to defend “the jews” (your words again), but I will point out that in attempting to overcome the form of bigotry you’re espousing, it would be better to expand the focus of you’re hatred to ANYONE who is an enemy of humanity and the living earth… this would apply to anyone and all who engage in sociopathic / psychopathic behavior…. regardless of religion or cultural / national identity.
The socio/ psychopaths who are under scrutiny here happen to be burton and Braverman… one a “gentile’ and the other a “jew” (as you presume). You might do well to keep in mind that there are socio/ psychopaths from all cultural /national and religious affiliations.
Although I haven’t had the “pleasure” to investigate, no doubt there exists a myriad of “alt.right,” “white supremacy,” “aryan brotherhood” websites where this type of bigoted mind-virus is welcomed and even “lovingly” cared for and fostered.
144 ion
The famous “I’m not an anti-semite but…”
All of your attributes could as easily apply to sociopaths and their rise to power in whatever venue they are in. Very few Jews in Congress, but very many “christians” and many sociopaths. Also few Jews in law enforcement and an astounding number of non-Jews running banks and corporations in the US.
So fuck you very much for your opinion. And I don’t mean to attribute douchebaggery to all people who hold your opinion, but there seems to be no dearth of douchebags of your bent.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/1478/
from the link by Mind Out of Rhyme…..
Personally, I am neutral about -isms, especially quasi-religions or full on cults, having ‘learned to avoid their advertising in the high street’, but just wish to expose what Asaf Braverman is up to…..
“So there it was: a demand and a new supplier. Because of the Christian prohibition against usury, Jews found themselves a financially indispensable place in their new home, extending loans to peasants, tradesmen, knights, courtiers, even the occasional monastery. The records from these days are scarce. But where they exist, they are often startling. In 1270, for example, 80 percent of the 228 adult Jewish males in Perpignan, France, made their living lending money to their Gentile neighbors, according to Marcus Arkin’s “Aspects of Jewish Economic History”. One of the most prolific was a rabbi. Two others were identified, in the notarial records, as “poets.” ”
…..in this case, they were not necessarily ‘power-grabbers’.
ion = Troll ? or FoF Troll or G. Goodwin
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.
There is an apology needed by me here, in as much as it seems that what I consider(ed) exploratory has become inflammatory. It is probably ‘past the point of no return’ to restart the Braverman discussion/investigation. I would consider it human to go back to the post by Ames Gilbert and allow others to take the blog discussion where it may go. Again, I think leaving the blog for 3 days might ‘create some space’.
Back to Asaf Braverman, I think that his websites definitely deserve a place on the Blog Roll here on the Fellowship of Friends – Living Presence Discussion.
On the GGurdjief.com About page, http://ggurdjieff.com/backstage/
Asaf Braverman writes, “I encountered the Fourth Way in 1995, joining Burton’s Fellowship of Friends, and am still a member of that organization.”
As far as Robert Burton goes, it’s always been “my way or the highway.” In point of fact, I think that the Asaf Braverman websites are all highways that lead to one destination, the Fellowship of Friends Fourth Way School of Robert Burton; see related websites:
http://www.livingpresence.com/
http://www.beingpresent.org/
Would Robert Burton support a former student – or even a current student who purports to teach at his own school? I think not!
I believe that the websites:
http://ggurdjieff.com/
http://beperiod.com/
and others are simply highways to Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. Note especially that the Asaf Braverman sites seek to appeal to students internationally.
Really, how long would it take to indoctrinate a prospective student at http://beperiod.com/ ? If you knew that your Fourth Way “teacher” Asaf Braverman was still a student of another, older teacher, Robert Burton – how long would it be before you’d want to explore the older teacher’s school?
This is a topic that has been explored before here:
https://robertearlburton.blogspot.com/search?q=Asaf+Braverman
It is a random fact that Braverman is Jewish. You focus on the fact because of typical yet antiquated social programming against Jews as upstart outsiders in European/American society.
151…troll: Anyone who confuses and disrupts the illusion of group agreement with more intelligent remarks than can generally be processed by the primary posters attempting to set and restrict the agenda.
Mind Out of Rhyme,
Thank you for over two decades of superior online commentary.
Just remember, 2 TRILLION galaxies! It’s just a little bit humbling.
Yes, Tim, your consistent example of exemplary humility is quite the example for the rest of us to aspire to.
The Blog enjoys a good fight, complete with insults, every now & then. It makes the atmosphere a little more lively & entertaining. It shouldn’t be all solemn & serious all the time. If you want dull, join FoF now!
Attn: Graduates of Hogwarts Academy (and other esoteric schools):
There is another school which requires magical thinking and invites the student not to graduate, but to enjoy a lifetime of attendance and teaching payments. Let me introduce Mr. Asaf Braverman of http://ggurdjieff.com/ who invites you, yes YOU, to step right up and peruse the curriculum of his Gurdjieff school (and if you don’t care about Gurdjieff, don’t worry!)
“… the spirit of ancient wisdom is as alive and accessible today as it ever was in previous days. The spark didn’t leave with Gurdjieff’s departure nor had it arrived only when he set foot on the stage. But to tell more than this would require telling a whole story – which I am in the process of writing.”
Asaf Braverman
from: http://ggurdjieff.com/backstage/
Become conscious! Visit the online Fourth Way School! Get to know for yourself the ways of the Absolute as taught by Asaf Braverman, sycophant student of the ignoble but greatly esteemed Fourth Way Teacher Robert Earl Burton himself! That’s right; be a student of a student!
“I encountered the Fourth Way in 1995, joining Burton’s Fellowship of Friends, and am still a member of that organization.”
Asaf Braverman
from: http://ggurdjieff.com/backstage/
153/159 Golden Veil
So swift back to Asaf Braverman, U.S. citizen (however achieved).
It is far from difficult to acknowledge that wave after wave of ‘interesting delights’ for the digestion of present and soon-to-be followers has been served. The presentation of Asaf Braverman is like a raspberry roulade – a sumptuous colorful, yet sickly sweet dessert to round off the Burton-as-he-approaches-the-grave-era.
I think there is little on which to comment that will wither the FOF away. Burton dies and someone takes the reins…
Power, sex and money.
http://www.icsahome.com/articles/the-relational-system-of-the-traumatizing-narcissist
Thanks for the excellent link, ton2u.
For more on the subject, I highly recommend Shaw’s book, “Tramatic Narcissism”, which Jomo recommended to me when it first came out in 2014.
Why?
Look around your world.
Roads, in and of themselves an artificiality created by human traffic in search of manufactured goods, are coating and displacing the natural ground in ever widening ribbons that run for miles and for all practical purposes loop in perpetual motion. On them people are insulated in air conditioned compartments rolling along at speeds so unnatural that the cityscape flies past the windows of the mind like numbing dissociated flickers of cubist non-reality. Multitudes of seat-belted passengers are strapped in and tranquilized by stereo delivered techno tunes caging their emotions and diverting their attention from the hellish steel vascular pump that drives them from their homes out into massive atmospheric domes of carbon monoxide that perverts and darkens the oxygen supply. At home the wind and the rain are things distant and somehow menacing, wildly roaming around outside the windowpanes that separate those clad in synthetic fibers, reclining on scotch-guarded fabrics, sipping hard intoxicants while spellbound by illuminating light-boxes relaying strange tales of games played with dragons and thrones. For employment many of these moderns spend untold hours tediously typing the latest generation of hieroglyphic code into lavishly long programs of command that in turn cause those sitting intrigued, entertained, eye-strained, mind-melded and brain-wired into back-lit magic magazines resting in their laps to respond in mass waves of reaction to the latest excesses of indiscretion by an outlandishly unqualified candidate for Commander and Chief. The modern human is thoroughly insulated from anything innately real, save possibly the protests of the internal plumbing of the digestive tract. Within this all-consuming abnormal cocoon of manufactured products the ineffectual and short-circuited minds of the highly educated flail around trying to conclusively explain the prevailing mass mentality of inescapable neurosis.
The food is genetically modified, full of antibiotics, hormones, preservatives and corn syrup.
The ears are full of disembodied voices from cellular phones.
The feet are covered with vulcanized synthetic rubber.
The minds are prisoners of an entirely artificial environment that insulates the senses from anything native to the natural Earth.
The Earth is being cleared of ice, of its dumb animals and depleted of the pure, clean elements of nature.
And then…
…then we wonder why we end up in fantasy cults that pretend to know the spiritual origin of man and the meaning of life.
flies past…should read flies passed
163 Mind Out of Rhyme
A short precis, but ‘catching us’ at our ecologically most vulnerable. I hope this is widely read – inside and out.
Thanks, Golden Veil (#159)!
But I must add, if you are interested in becoming a “student of a student”, Asaf Braverman is not the only game in town! Might not “esoteric keying” be more fashionable and add increased luster to one’s spritual resumé nowadays? In that case, one could zip over to the mysticisma.com site, run by Benjamin Yudin, who, since 1979, “has been a member of the Fellowship of Friends where he received his training in keying the esoteric interpretations to sacred literature, legends, and myths.” Ah yes, the good old science of “Keying”, co–invented by Burton and Asaf Braverman and supported by the research of dozens of followers, mining the ancient wisdom of the last 150,000 years. Will Skype for $$! What’s not to like? Just don’t be a woman under the age of 25, is my advice!
Need more choices? Seek the expertise of Gilbert Moore or William Page or Brian Flynn (and no doubt many others I have overlooked), other long–time followers of Burton who have not graduated either. Yet their websites presume to offer you their valuable insights into becoming “more awake”, whatever that means, insights gleaned from their servile dependency on Robert Earl Burton over literally decades.
Interested, but short of funds? You could get started on becoming a “student of a student”by going to a bookstore or Amazon and looking through anything written by Official Hagiographer Girard Haven. Heavy going, but pure gold if you join later on and are trying to make sense of Burton’s ravings. One can count on Girard to straighten up your thinking pronto! Again, you can benefit from his decades of experience, but spiced up with Burton’s Official Seal of Approval—yup, Girard is Conscious, too. Though a lowly Man #5 with little prospect for further promotion, he is light–years ahead (in 4th Way hierarchical terms) of Asaf Braverman, who at this point is merely a Pending Conscious Being.
Still among the myriad microwaves,
The infrared messages,
The gigabytes of ones and zeroes,
We find words,
Infinitesimally small,
Byte-sized now,
Tinier even than science,
Lurking in some vague electricity
Where, if we but listen,
We can hear the solitary voice
Of that poet* telling us:
“For in and out, above, about, below,
‘Tis nothing but a Magic Shadow-show,
Play’d in a Box whose Candle is the Sun,
Round which we Phantom Figures come and go.
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
Yesterday This Day’s Madness did prepare;
Tomorrow’s Silence, Triumph or Despair:
Drink! for you know not whence you came, nor why:
Drink! for you know not why you go, nor where.”
* Omar Khayyam
Do you create your life (your truth), or does it create you ? “willy- nilly” as the poet said… or… does (your) reality lie somewhere between…?
If you’ve adopted a belief, or, if a belief has adopted you (as a host), developing a level of “objectivity” regarding the belief might help in the process of finding / creating / choosing (your) meaning in life… I say “might.”
There are many beliefs to “choose” from, nihilism is one… albeit with many shades:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_nihilism#Meaning_of_life
re: belief… a place to start researching “choices” – you’ll see that it could take a lifetime devoted to the study:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_philosophies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism#Scientific_realism
“The common thread in the literature of the existentialists is coping with the emotional anguish arising from our confrontation with nothingness, and they expended great energy responding to the question of whether surviving it was possible. Their answer was a qualified “Yes,” advocating a formula of passionate commitment and impassive stoicism.”
— Alan Pratt
Some have given up and gone, some were unable to give up, some went crazy wondering about it, but in the end it is the attitude of facing death, by facing oneself, not in a group, that shows ‘the hero within’.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/08/14/lets-stop-using-the-word-scientism/
“Humans evolved from an ancient primate relative of apes. No supernatural god had anything to do with the arising of modern humans.”
The above statement is not somehow a form of scientific minded irrational superstitious belief. It is a fact of existence as evidence by a fossil record. People with spiritual beliefs who coin mind-fuck propaganda terms like ‘scientism’ do not understand as much or know more about reality than those using the scientific method to definitively understand what the world is actually like outside the ignorant human propensity to make shit up.
In charge of the cyanide hole – December 23, 2015
“God created life on earth or even human life on earth. There was no divinity involved in our evolving existence.
Humans came from apelike ancestors and developed big fat brains from the exertions of hunting, tool making, cooking and eating meat”
Mind Out of Rhyme – October 16, 2016
“Humans evolved from an ancient primate relative of apes. No supernatural god had anything to do with the arising of modern humans”.
In charge of the cyanide hole – December 25, 2015
“While the mystics receptively wait for the meaning of existence to come into them the scientists actively calculate so that the meaning of existence will come out of them.
There was a thousand times more reality in the life of Einstein then there was in the life of Buddha.”
Mind Out of Rhyme – October 13, 2016 -October 14
There was no Buddha in reality. It is a myth.
The Buddha was a myth–did not exist in reality. Sorry if this is bad news for you.
ryanopoo – December 24, 2015
Could be a shill, they pop up to distract everyone when we finally focus on something, which is what’s happening with all the spurious links to somewhere else.
Sometimes when an individual feels that his/her “unquestionable” worldview is in question, s/he feels “attacked” – depending on the person and their conviction in and commitment to said worldview, s/he will lash out at the perceived “attack” with the fundamental vehemence of a “true believer.” A reaction like this has nothing to do with scientific method, rather it is a prime example of so-called ‘scientism’ in action.
I think I understand wrapping of oneself in the flag of science as an attempt to allay tension caused by the uncertainties of life – but this sort of reaction to a mere suggestion that belief factors into a particular worldview – imo – is a type of fundamentalism… maybe a reflection of or symptomatic of FOF mentality… dogmatic faith and unquestionable belief has nothing to do with scientific methodology.
So you feel/think you have something to “prove” to others – science isn’t it…. I suggest you leave that to the scientists.
“Scientism may refer to science applied “in excess”. The term scientism can apply in either of two senses:
1) To indicate the improper usage of science or scientific claims. This usage applies equally in contexts where science might not apply, such as when the topic is perceived as beyond the scope of scientific inquiry, and in contexts where there is insufficient empirical evidence to justify a scientific conclusion. It includes an excessive deference to claims made by scientists or an uncritical eagerness to accept any result described as scientific. This can be a counterargument to appeals to scientific authority. It can also address the attempt to apply “hard science” methodology and claims of certainty to the social sciences, which Friedrich Hayek described in The Counter-Revolution of Science (1952) as being impossible, because that methodology involves attempting to eliminate the “human factor”, while social sciences (including his own field of economics) center almost purely on human action.
2) To refer to “the belief that the methods of natural science, or the categories and things recognized in natural science, form the only proper elements in any philosophical or other inquiry”, or that “science, and only science, describes the world as it is in itself, independent of perspective” with a concomitant “elimination of the psychological dimensions of experience.”
The term “scientism” frequently implies a critique of the more extreme expressions of logical positivism and has been used by social scientists such as Friedrich Hayek, philosophers of science such as Karl Popper, and philosophers such as Hilary Putnam and Tzvetan Todorov to describe (for example) the dogmatic endorsement of scientific methodology and the reduction of all knowledge to only that which is measurable. Philosophers such as Alexander Rosenberg have also appropriated “scientism” as a name for the view that science is the only reliable source of knowledge.
E. F. Schumacher, in his A Guide for the Perplexed, criticized scientism as an impoverished world view confined solely to what can be counted, measured and weighed. ‘The architects of the modern worldview, notably Galileo and Descartes, assumed that those things that could be weighed, measured, and counted were more true than those that could not be quantified. If it couldn’t be counted, in other words, it didn’t count…. scientism is a ‘myth as pernicious as any sort of fundamentalism.’ “
174. Cristalclear – October 16, 2016
SOUND THE ALARM!
Cristal Clarity has uncovered a conspiracy to undermine the blog induced destruction of the FOF by introducing the diversion of unadulterated atheism!
Is there anyone out there who does not comprehend the dangerous connection?
Be very, very worried…
175. ton2u – October 16, 2016
Verbosity is always an indicator of a questionable argument.
Get it down to a sentence or two so that people like myself who are allergic to wasting time absorbing superfluous data can glance over your point.
“allergic” ? nah… reactive yes…
How to communicate with the closed minded ?
178. ton2u
One can always tell when Greg is back…he invariably, and pathologically pins his own neurotic intellectual crimes on others, much like Trump does with his political opponents. It’s called projection. And it’s the coward’s way to sway the weak minded, rather then look at one’s self honestly. They can’t help themselves…like continually returning to where they are not wanted, and have been banned inumerable times.
#175 Ton2u gives a comprehensively documented history of the use of the term “Scientism” to describe a perceived error that some fall into. I guess in a nutshell it is to take science as if it were a religion, and to believe it answers all questions we may have, as religions usually claim to do. As a voice to defend science in its modesty and power I would cite Prof Feynman, who describes the process beautifully in a lecture series from some time ago. Science starts with a guess, then some work is done to see what the implications of the guess would be if it were true, which then allows for some tests to be conducted, which can only ever disprove a guess. If the tests correspond with the guess all we can say is, so far the guess has not been disproved. Clearly this is a process that cannot claim to answer all questions, but also clearly it has a certain power. Here is Feynman in action explaining these points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPapE-3FRw
“The scientific method is the most rigorous path to knowledge, but it’s also messy and tough. Science deserves respect exactly because it is difficult — not because it gets everything correct on the first try. The uncertainty inherent in science doesn’t mean that we can’t use it to make important policies or decisions. It just means that we should remain cautious and adopt a mindset that’s open to changing course if new data arises.”
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/science-isnt-broken/#part4
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/science-isnt-broken/#part1
181/182 Mind Out of Rhyme
Is this all a big lesson in “Cogito, ergo sum”?
There is very little reason for an argument when it is TRUE THAT THE FACTS DO NOT LIE. In actual fact, science is made for plodding verification and very seldom, except for an Einstein or Hawking, in leaps of mad conjecture, toward some far off theorem.
But what makes a man, or woman? Is it the spouting forth of Universal Facts, the latest round of ‘Robert says’ or the ability to be kind to a colleague in trouble and needing help. For me, it is the pliant qualities – a kind word, helping carry an old person’s shopping, the ‘little compassions’ indeed that are so far away from a Burton…
Has sex with young, effeminate heterosexual men.
Wears ‘poofey’ clothes and gets his ‘amours’ to do the same.
Globe-trots to famous museums and restaurants.
Eats the finest food at the world’s most expensive restaurants.
And then he has the GALL TO STATE that C-influence is making him humble by using homosexuality with his ‘students.
At least science has some continuum and requires an earnest, searching mind’. The mind of Burton requires depravity and insanity.
I am still unsure of whether Burton believes his own mythology, or is cynically using what he learnt at Horn’s group to arrange a cushy life for himself. In a way it doesn’t matter, either way he should be shunned. I wonder if he is afraid of death?
184 John Harmer
That incredibly unassailable word that will put Burton in check mate when he comes to the BIG D – face to face – CONSCIENCE. His opponent’s rook, preventing movement forward to escape and the queen which his opponent has placed at close quarters to Burton’s king. You see how Burton will be left with nothing except the fact that his life has been spent any other way than building a good character that is what would BE DONE FOLLOWING CONSCIENCE.
It is more than sad that his followers, from entourage, out towards enablers and the makers of efforts to just the ones who are paying and clinging on out of sheer lack of critical thinking (AND CONSCIENABLE ACTION), may feel no pain at his passing, though I suspect a huge funeral is predicted.
Like you, like me, like many on this blog (except those who derive pleasure at sarcastic jibes) – we must all make efforts, since I suspect we have all found life’s balance, however long the TRANSITION OUT WAS – to claim the truth both for ourselves and any insiders of the FOF.
No sincere effort is wasted. John, please keep on posting.
The problem is not Burton or Trump, the problem is a population of uneducated people ready to believe in a world that does not exist. The problem is an inherent mental illness native to the human mind. The problem is people willing to adopt the grandiose delusions of the psychologically deranged. The problem with cults is that there are always many thousands willing to believe in a kook in crazy pants having himself photographed down on his knees kissing the invisible feet of the King of the Universe. I mean, you’ve got wonder what the hell the King of the Universe was wearing considering that his prophet had clad himself in clown pants.
186 Mind Out of Rhyme
The problem is an education that feeds minor to major narcissism all the way through from the latest initiate to the most hardened member. It takes a great deal of breaking free of that to make an FOF member leave. And the effect of leaving can be devastating and may need much support by family and/or therapy.
Creepy Clown Luring the Innocent into the Woods
Oregon House, California
Associated Press
16October2016
Claims of a creepy clown trying to lure the innocents has expanded into the second state. In reports eerily similar to recent clown sightings that have garnered the national spotlight near Green-behind-the-ears, Lower State, two unsuspecting youths have reported seeing a clown trying to lure friends into the woods with treats about higher states and emotional delights.
“Police say the clown was using treats like candy and flowers to try to convince 2 youths to follow him into the woods.” – Justa Mensch
Just like investigators in the neighboring states, police in Lake Wobegon have stepped up patrols, but haven’t been able to substantiate any of the reports.
Authorities say two Oregon House, California, youths said they saw the clown, and one adult reported hearing the clown. According to the two, the clown was wearing flowery shirt, white gloves, red shoes. red hat, a white hairy face, a red nose, and a scarry evil toothy smile, according to AP affiliate WTF. They told police he offered them treats like candy, flowers, and consciousness, if they would come into his mouth.
About four hours later, a caller who refused to give a name, reported seeing a clown about two miles away. Police say they found no evidence of a clown in that incident either.
Police in Lower State have tallied six similar sightings so far. In the first incident, reported Aug. 21, a police report described a “suspicious character. . .dressed in circus clown attire and Gucci shoes, enticing the naive to follow them into the woods.”
A woman told a responding deputy that her son had “seen clowns in the woods whispering and making strange noises.”
Since then, more reports of clown sightings have cropped up. Several in the area told police a clown had displayed “large amounts of money or lavish baubles” in an attempt to lure them into the woods. They said they believed the clown lived in “a house located near a pond at the end of a man-made trail in the woods,” according to the police report, but investigators say they have found the house to be abandoned.
So far, police have turned up no evidence to substantiate the claims.
Monday, police were back in the area conducting door-to-door investigations in DogPatch, USA.
Law enforcement officials in Lower State have spoken out to whomever is behind the sightings, warning them that they could be prosecuted for impersonating a guru or ‘Avatar of the Age.’
“The clowning around needs to stop,” said Green-behind-the-ears, police chief Huge Chief Feature, at a press conference Tuesday. “It’s illegal, it’s dangerous, it’s inappropriate, it’s creating community concern, and worst of all, it’s creepy.”
😉 AP
Studies show psychopaths really do make some people feel queasy. Why? The researchers suspect it might be an evolutionary response to an “intraspecies predator.”
This is another one [method] all the sources agreed on. Don’t listen to the excuses, rationalizations or outright lies. Don’t listen to what they say they will do. Pay attention to what they do.
http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2016/10/how-to-deal-with-psychopaths/
96. Tim Campion – October 9, 2016
“It’s difficult to determine who’s the bigger blowhard, Donald Trump or Robert Burton.”
Tim, that a tough one, but I think that who wins out depends on the kind of blowing.
There are other congruities between the two men. Here’s another one, but it definitely trumps Apollo.
https://www.trumphotels.com/albemarle-estate/
Psychopath – by experience.
Honey tongued he was, eager to talk of world order and psychiatry – the two things he felt had let him down. Listening was interesting, those three evenings leading up to ‘horror night’. To track a little into his past – he had been brought up by his mother, who did not drink and an alcoholic police sergeant step father who would get drunk and beat him. About six months before he became interested in me as a ‘chum’ – interesting word, but you can never befriend, nor be befriended by a psychopath, moreover an alcoholic psychopath (he actually openly admitted that was what he was – maybe to soften the blow of what he was to inflict) – well six months before his wife (he actually married her) and had a little boy by he,r she took off for the family home in Texas, child and all. He was left with his intelligence garnered from a top college, warped by alcohol and watching too many youtube videos on the eugenic drive behind psychiatry – although I agree psychiatry is neither science nor medicine – at best ‘practicing on patients with synthetic substances to make it alright’. The approach worth anything is the holistic one.
But I must loop back to when I was almost killed by this psychopath. P.S. Never invite an alcoholic psychopath up to your apartment for it little drink for it is never little (20 parts vodka to 2 parts orange juice is what they will have and they have become drunk beforehand). He had been drinking beforehand and had insulted a social worker. When the ‘pitch’ of the conversation became intense and intolerable, I told him to leave and poured the remains of his drink down the sink. He came after me and took a dinner fork to my face. I turned him away and slammed him on the floor. As I was pinning him down and telling him “For God’s sake stop”, he managed to wrestle and get back on top of me, holding his thumbs across my throat, as if to strangle me (I later discerned that these people take you up to the point, then lift you up, dress you off and pretend they have rescued you). After I had told him his remaining bottle of vodka was outside my door, quickly locking the door I proceeding to call Police Emergency. They arrived three hours later and told me my face looked like a Tarantino movie. The suspect spent two days in jail and was cautioned. I never spoke to him again.
I suppose this is more extreme than being told if you do not drop your pants and be sucked to orgasm, but it has the unquestionable quality of a PSYCHOPATH REMOVING YOUR SENSE OF SELF CONTROL.
191. ion – October 18, 2016
Ion, what a horrific experience. How scary and traumatic for you.
I am so sorry. Reading your words I can almost feel the adrenaline rush of trying to survive the attack. I was attacked once; I was 19 and it was my first time away on my own in Mexico. I was very frightened by an acquaintance who wasn’t inebriated but simply decided to throw on me all the vitriol he felt for the U.S. It was physical, too. I was not stabbed in the face but I was pretty scared by the whole experience.
I am so sorry for what happened to you. I never thought about my attacker being a psychopath, but I remember he was pretty charming and somewhat of a looker.
I believe that a cult, political affairs, corporate entities – are probably already structured in advance by psychopaths and come in waves until they no longer have their use, then are reformed either by the first perpetrator or (as in the entity of Asaf Braverman), the pieces are gathered (in new format but with the same ‘crunching the innocents’ and the naive – slight difference there, purposefully) that all ‘the material’ -‘people, buildings and, of course, sacred knowledge – or corporate product or worldwide reaching designs – at the base of things these are all similar – may be carried forward.
I was thinking about Braverman, described by Ames Gilbert…..
There is very little chance of stopping his momentum and his ‘fault’ is his ‘very own being’. You cannot change him and almost certainly cannot stop his ‘momentum’.
We can, however, appeal to certain areas of the FOF – we do not know who they are, but can ask questions of them…..
What is it you really want in life?
Is the FOF (despite all its fancy-pantsy and froo-froo) deep down giving you this?
Are your ‘friends’ in the FOF people you would walk away from, should your aims change and no longer be aligned?
Do you actually (after so many predictions by Burton having not come true) think that next prediction/outright lie is worth waiting for?
The list could go on.
There are two posters…..
WhaleRider
ton2u
who have always delivered a ‘personal slant’ on the blog here. I think we can always be ‘shaken to the core’ by their deliveries, since truth and meaning (here I have to say a plodding scientific approach is about 20% truth of each) will ‘rock foundations that are adhered with SuperGlue and not the granite of human suffering’.
“The strongest people are not those who show strength in front of us, but those who win battles we know nothing about.”
(goodlifeguide.com)
A change of pace:
“From the perspective of a cleaned out bank account and a stop-dead life, where doors have closed and dreams have died, the experience goes past Harry Potter’s adventures at the “Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry” to Dante’s Inferno.” Picture the Fellowship morphing into “Hogwash Haven For the Deeply Deluded.” Here, there are real witches and wizards, and you can’t shut them out by closing a book or stopping the movie or waking from a bad dream.
Unlike Harry and his friends, here people don’t travel through walls at the railway station to get there. They walk, drive, ride, or fly from all corners of the earth, legally, illegally, (from all backgrounds on the planet) to merge in a hidden outpost where no one wants to be. (Even He Who Can’t Be Named travels away weekly to quench his greed…and other things that can’t be named.)
In preparation for this “School,” there isn’t a store where you shop for personalized wands. Here the esteemed faculty hand out blinders to seeker wizards-in-waiting. After less than a semester, students see through their own glasses darkly. A sorting hat is not needed, of course, as types are clear to the eye: male, female, rich, poor. Oh, and the “in-betweens”–though the largest faction, we’ll overlook them for now, just as the One Who Can’t be Named is pleased to do.
On the walls, the pictures don’t come to life. Grist for meeting material, they are dissected into shapes and numbers–blinding their beauty forever, where the teacher points out monsters from the shadows mirroring the master and his minions–the “lower self” unmasked.
And staircases don’t move of their own accord. Instead there is only one staircase, and it spirals downward in the hallowed hall of awakening. Down to the thinly-veiled bowels of the bordello, where lie a stable of waiting Hansels hoping to hump their way to heaven–by that very same One Who Can’t be Named…
Useful terminology
Differences Between a Psychopath vs Sociopath By John M. Grohol, Psy.D.
Differences Between a Psychopath vs Sociopath
Society has conspired with Hollywood to put two seemingly-sexy psychology terms into our collective consciousness — psychopath and sociopath. Psychopath and sociopath are pop psychology terms for what psychiatry calls an antisocial personality disorder. These two terms are not really well-defined in the psychology research literature, and so there is some confusion about them.
Nonetheless, there are some general similarities as well as differences between these two personality types. Both types of personality have a pervasive pattern of disregard for the safety and rights of others. Deceit and manipulation are central features to both types of personality. Contrary to popular belief, a psychopath or sociopath is not necessarily violent.
The common features of a psychopath and sociopath lie in their shared diagnosis — antisocial personality disorder. The DSM-51 defines antisocial personality as someone have 3 or more of the following traits:
Regularly breaks or flouts the law
Constantly lies and deceives others
Is impulsive and doesn’t plan ahead
Can be prone to fighting and aggressiveness
Has little regard for the safety of others
Irresponsible, can’t meet financial obligations
Doesn’t feel remorse or guilt
In both cases, some signs or symptoms are nearly always present before age 15. By the time a person is an adult, they are well on their way to becoming a psychopath or sociopath.
Traits of a Psychopath
Psychology researchers generally believe that psychopaths tends to be born — it’s likely a genetic predisposition — while sociopaths tend to be made by their environment. (Which is not to say that psychopaths may not also suffer from some sort of childhood trauma.) Psychopathy might be related to physiological brain differences. Research has shown psychopaths have underdeveloped components of the brain commonly thought to be responsible for emotion regulation and impulse control.
Are you a psychopath?
Take the Psychopathy Quiz to find out!
Psychopaths, in general, have a hard time forming real emotional attachments with others. Instead, they form artificial, shallow relationships designed to be manipulated in a way that most benefits the psychopath. People are seen as pawns to be used to forward the psychopath’s goals. Psychopaths rarely feel guilt regarding any of their behaviors, no matter how much they hurt others.
But psychopaths can often be seen by others as being charming and trustworthy, holding steady, normal jobs. Some even have families and seemingly-loving relationships with a partner. While they tend to be well-educated, they may also have learned a great deal on their own.
When a psychopath engages in criminal behavior, they tend to do so in a way that minimizes risk to themselves. They will carefully plan criminal activity to ensure they don’t get caught, having contingency plans in place for every possibility.
Psychopath Pop Culture Examples: Dexter, Anton Chigurh in No Country for Old Men, Henry in Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer, Patrick Bateman in American Psycho
joker-sociopath-dark-knight
Traits of a Sociopath
Researchers tend to believe that sociopathy is the result of environmental factors, such as a child or teen’s upbringing in a very negative household that resulted in physical abuse, emotional abuse, or childhood trauma.
Sociopaths, in general, tend to be more impulsive and erratic in their behavior than their psychopath counterparts. While also having difficulties in forming attachments to others, some sociopaths may be able to form an attachment to a like-minded group or person. Unlike psychopaths, most sociopaths don’t hold down long-term jobs or present much of a normal family life to the outside world.
When a sociopath engages in criminal behavior, they may do so in an impulsive and largely unplanned manner, with little regard for the risks or consequences of their actions. They may become agitated and angered easily, sometimes resulting in violent outbursts. These kinds of behaviors increase a sociopath’s chances of being apprehended.
Sociopath Pop Culture Examples: The Joker in The Dark Knight, JD in Heathers, Alex Delarge in A Clockwork Orange
Who is More Dangerous?
Both psychopaths and sociopaths present risks to society, because they will often try and live a normal life while coping with their disorder. But psychopathy is likely the more dangerous disorder, because they experience a lot less guilt connected to their actions.
A psychopath also has a greater ability to dissociate from their actions. Without emotional involvement, any pain that others suffer is meaningless to a psychopath. Many famous serial killers have been psychopaths.
Not all people we’d call a psychopath or sociopath are violent. Violence is not a necessary ingredient (nor is it for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder) — but it is often present.
Clues to a Psychopath or Sociopath in Childhood
Clues to psychopathy and sociopathy are usually available in childhood. Most people who can later be diagnosed with sociopathy or psychopathy have had a pattern of behavior where they violate the basic rights or safety of others. They often break the rules (or even laws) and societal norms as a child, too.
Psychologists call these kinds of childhood behaviors a conduct disorder. Conduct disorders involve four categories of problem behavior:
Aggression to people and animals
Destruction of property
Deceitfulness or theft
Serious violations of rules or laws
If you recognize these symptoms (and the specific symptoms of conduct disorder) in a child or young teen, they’re at greater risk for antisocial personality disorder.
Summary
Psychopathy and sociopathy are different cultural labels applied to the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. Up to 3 percent of the population may qualify for a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. This disorder is more common among males and mostly seen in people with an alcohol or substance abuse problem, or in forensic settings such as prisons. Psychopaths tend to be more manipulative, can be seen by others as more charming, lead a semblance of a normal life, and minimize risk in criminal activities. Sociopaths tend to be more erratic, rage-prone, and unable to lead as much of a normal life. When sociopaths engage in criminal activity, they tend to do so in a reckless manner without regard to consequences.
#195 Thanks Ion for that balanced sounding definition. Burton seems to fit closest to the psychopath criteria of the two types. I have been reading on this blog of Burton also displaying Narcissistic traits, which seem even more obvious than the psychopathic traits. Maybe because his “act” of compassion is well expressed, and consistently applied to most students. Those he forces to partake in sexual acts that violate their essential natures get to see a coldhearted side that he carefully hides from the general population in the FoF, I guess.
By a strange near–coincidence, Asaf Braverman is going to share the benefit of his thoughts on conscience. He is hosting an online workshop, “Conscience Emotional Understanding of Truth” 22 October 2016 at 10 a.m. PST
The blurb:
“When buffers weaken, conscience begins to manifest and we develop a sense of emotional truth. In this workshop, we will conduct an experiment that shows how the sense of truth shifts depending on our aim. We will superimpose our observations on an esoteric-Christian painting of the heart pulling against the lower self.”
Wow! $20 for an hour of illumination by a Pending Conscious Being™” seems almost a bargain (or not). Or you can ‘get it all’ for just $50 a month (3 workshops a month—plus access to the archive) and become a Permanent Student of a Student™!
Seems to me that he hasn’t quite separated his theories on morality from his theories on conscience. IMHO, conscience is the one thing that doesn’t shift ‘depending on one’s aim’, but that’s just me. I’ve certainly never been labeled a Pending Conscious Being™ by someone who recently had the Absolute him/herself perform an Act of Humility for him, far from it, so my opinion doesn’t count for much.
P.S., if any readers actually do sign up for this workshop or any of the other offerings by present or past followers of Burton, feel free to post a review here, with excerpts or juicy quotations if possible.
P.P.S. Mad Cult Member (#118): I’m sorry you found this site useless. I don’t know what you were looking for, but if you live in Oregon House or environs, feel free to look me up in the GV phone directory (I use my real name on this blog) if you want to talk about things. When it was my time, I was offered invaluable help by local people who had already left, and I like to pass that on when I can.
You are a good man, Ames.
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