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Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 143 October 2, 2014

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1. Just the Facts Ma'am - October 2, 2014

142/200: Tim Campion:
‘Like a good neighbor, the Fellowship of Friends sues Yuba County over tax status. Maybe we could get some volunteers to describe for the Court the typical Galleria Bacchanalia that the Fellowship would have Yuba County taxpayers subsidize.’

Use my name above for link to appeal-democrat article.

At a time when local and state governments are still grappling with financial difficulties, is this a good time for Fellowship of Friends to pursue this tact of property tax refund? It did not work before when economic conditions were better. What makes anyone think it will work better this time around? Plus, everyone is going have to pay for such frivolous activity.

From Yuba County
Fiscal Year 2014-2015 Budget:

‘Budget messages over the last 5 years have focused on the most difficult economic time facing Yuba County since the Great Depression. The recovery process has been very slow and the public and our organization is reminded every day of the lingering impacts. Our local government can choose to complain and agonize over the impacts, claim to be the perpetual victim of state regulations or costs we cannot control, but complaining simply has no value. Don’t get me wrong, we will still advocate on behalf [of] our County, but looking forward, being innovative and taking charge of our future is what we choose.

There is no doubt that one day we will be back to our previous local revenue and service levels. Until that day, our charge has been and will continue to be to work smarter, strive to be more efficient, and ultimately become better stewards of the public trust. Regardless of specific duties our individual employees may have, our organization works better because we work together.’


‘During the budget development stage, which began in December 2013, departments were asked to absorb cost increases and reflect that within their respective budgets. While some larger departments were able to absorb those increases, most were not. The recommendations from departments, if they had to absorb a majority of cost increases, would have left many of them at staffing levels (due to projected layoffs) that would result in a significant decrease in services to the public. In January of this year, staff estimated and presented to your Board that cost of business increases and potential revenue reductions would impact the General Fund.’


Non-General fund departments that are appropriated minimal to no funding from the General Fund such as the Health and Human Services Agency, Child Support Services Agency and fee for service based departments in the Community Development and Services Agency have their own challenges meeting their revenue needs as well. For example, with fee based departments the increases in County costs drive the need to raise fees to cover our costs, but raising fees does not help the businesses we are trying to provide services to and is contrary to our Strategic Priority of Economic Development.

Expenditure increase categories for this year’s budget are similar to previous years. Increases are attributed to salaries, benefits, fuel and supplies. Benefit costs related to employee pensions and health insurance continue to rise at alarming rates.

After all budgets and projected revenues were analyzed, a General Fund structural deficit of approximately $691,000 remains.’

[The $600,000 sought by FoF would possibly double county deficit.]


‘Property Tax Administration Fees – The County will continue to receive a reduced amount compared to previous years from cities as a result of the California Supreme Court ruling in the case City of Alhambra vs. Los Angeles County. As previously stated, all property tax activities are performed by the County, from assessments to appeals, calculations and collections. The County pays for over 90% of those activities out of local tax payer funds.’

Read whole report:

2. Tempus Fugit - October 2, 2014


Animam Recro – Fellowship of Friends – a cult for intellectuals, and Fellowship of Friends Discussion
Part 1 through Part 10


The Fellowship of Friends Discussion – Free speech is a dirty business
Part 11 through Part 33


Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion
Part 34 through the current page


These links will allow you to access every page of this blog from its beginning in 2006.

Read with an open mind and you will find out the truth about Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.

And if you are a member of the Fellowship of Friends you may find your path to freedom.

3. silentpurr - October 2, 2014

Q Can I avoid this protracted battle with my mind?
M Yes you can. Just live your life as it comes, but alertly, watchfully, allowing everything to happen as it happens, doing the natural things the natural way, suffering, rejoicing – as life brings. This is also a way.
Sri Nissargadatta Maharaj

4. Security Breach - October 2, 2014

The Nile River is over 4,000 miles long; it begins at Lake Victoria and empties into the Mediterranean Sea. In terms of conscious mind interpreting this fact of life it is Influence C indicating that the Victorian Age is discharging its morality down river into the middle of life (the Latin word mediterraneus means “in the middle of earth”) When we release our pleasurable excitations up the stream of life, “up the Nile,” we go against the flow of morality and eventually penetrate Victoria (in Roman mythology, Victoria was the name of the goddess of victory, corresponding to the Greek goddess Nike).

Twert the river goddess of ancient Egypt was also known as “Taweret” which means, “she who is great” or simply, “great one.”


In this depiction Twert has bitten her tongue, meaning she has stifled the expression of negative emotions as the Steward penetrates her male god Amun-Ra.


In this depiction Amun-Ra holds an ancient golf club, indicating that students will one day play golf on the sacred grounds as they enjoy a tax exempt status and eventually fall tragically back to sleep. All good things must come in the end.

5. Just the Facts Ma'am - October 3, 2014

I posted to the blog and it did not show up; could be hung in moderation. Please help.

6. fofblogmoderator - October 5, 2014

Hmmm… I just checked but didn’t see anything. Can you try to post it again?

7. Just the Facts Ma'am - October 5, 2014

4. Security Breach:
‘The Nile River is over 4,000 miles long; it begins at Lake Victoria and empties into the Mediterranean Sea.’

Security Breach did not mention:
The Nile is the longest river on our planet that runs south to north, which is the opposite direction of the general flow of most of the rivers on the planet; north to south, generally. (It does not stand alone in this regard, but it is definitely the longest one that does that. And, of course, all rivers flow downhill.) This exemplifies the meaning of what being in denial (The Nile) is; going against the flow of the natural order of things. Just like FoF does: opposed to the natural order of things (against Life – or sceme to avoid paying property tax to Yuba County but expecting services for its community). Maybe that is why FoF is so interested in the Nile? – justifies its meme of contrarian behaviour.

Acceptance is a better way to go. Acceptance is a bitter pill to swallow, but there is magic in it. Acceptance usually is a humbling experience. Can man’s possible evolution be pursued by accepting the natural order of things and, at the same time, be opposed to the general direction of life? Give it a try. Might be possible; not formatory – to use FoF speak.

Or, as the county said:

‘There is no doubt that one day we will be back to our previous local revenue and service levels. Until that day, our charge has been and will continue to be to work smarter, strive to be more efficient, and ultimately become better stewards of the public trust. Regardless of specific duties our individual employees may have, our organization works better because we work together.’

Can FoF ‘ultimately become better stewards of the public trust.’?

142/213: Ames Gilbert:
‘When the Fellowship of Friends was incorporated, the Article VII of the Articles of Incorporation specifically pointed out the prohibition against inurement. It states: The property of this corporation is irrevocably dedicated to religious purposes and no part of the net income or assets of the organization shall ever inure to the benefit of any director, officer, or member thereof or to the benefit of any private persons.

Two of the nine members who signed that document in 1979 are still around, Linda Rockwood (former name) and Ethan Harris. They know better. Of course, not being present at the signing does not in the least absolve present and past members of the Board of Directors and the Fellowship Council of their responsibilities. . .’

One other person who signed the original Articles of Incorporation is still around in FoF: Girard Haven.

Perhaps Patrick McGrath, Yuba County District Attorney,
could remind the Fellowship of Friends Corporation, et al, of their responsibilities when the property tax lawsuit comes to ajudication? Maybe even investigate them for criminal activity, as Ames suggests in his post on last page?

First Amendment to the United States Constitution allows for a religion to believe whatever they want, but does not allow for a religion to DO whatever they want.

BTW, it is highly likely that the only people who will make out nicely in the Fellowship of Friends property tax lawsuit are the lawyers.

Claim for refund of taxes paid by Fellowship of Friends on APN 048-260-008-000 (12607 Rices Crossing Road, Oregon House) for tax years 2009-2014 as submitted to Yuba County by:
Janlynn R. Fleener
Sacramento, CA 95814
February 21, 2014
PDF 5447Kb 116 pages.
(This is not a text searchable document and is from Yuba County website linked from Board of Supervisors Agenda, March 25, 2014 and is a matter of public record. It may have appeared previously on this blog.):


8. Security Breach - October 5, 2014

Just the Facts Ma’am: “…or scheme to avoid paying property tax to Yuba County but expecting services for its community.”

Something echoes in my brain: “Tramp does not want to pay!”

Just a quick thought, likely one that has occurred to others:

The property tax inspector drops by your museum to check out whether or not it is a religious facility worthy of tax exempt status and right there on the ceiling surrounded by Pepto-Bismol walls is a painting of an erect penis. Could that be one of the considerations calculated into refusing to give these people tax exemption? You know all these life people are under feminine dominance and shrink at the sight of room decorations that include penises.

Anyway, then the tax inspector begins to interview a few of the religious flock:

Mr. Christian and Mrs. Mary, glad to meet you. I see here that you are on record as being on your eighth lifetime, respectively (according to your minister), and are scheduled to awaken as Christ and Mary Magdalene in your next, ninth, lifetime. Is that your testimony?

Are both of you completely off your freaking meds?

9. Mick - October 6, 2014

Fellowship of Friends Discussion Page 143, Post #7 is most interesting, especially the link at the end (Letter to Yuba County Board of Supervisors Claim for Refund of Taxes Paid). It should be required reading for all interested parties.
Some highlights (For fiscal year 2011):
INCOME: $565,025 (U.S. Donations – $29,677; Weekly Events – $261,158; Special Events – $216,709; Fine Arts Donations – $57,381)
EXPENSES: $760,572 (Salaries – $357,859; Heavy Equipment rental – $4 (?))
Notable Assets: 9 million bucks worth of antiques.

The Canons of The Fellowship of Friends (Exhibit 1) are dated 2009 and do not bear any resemblance to the Fellowship organization of old. Kwitchurkickin.

10. Mick - October 6, 2014

LOSS/GAIN -$195,547

11. Jomo Piñata - October 6, 2014

http://goo.gl/sgvnJM at Tab C (pp. 114-116) (Letter from J.J. Delaney, Assistant Chief Counsel, California State Board of Equalization to letter to Donald MacDonald, M.D., dated June 20, 1975, regarding tax exemption issues):

“The Fellowship of Humanity decision also provided four tests for ascertaining whether or not a religion exists. (See my letter of August 15, 1974). The only one I find troublesome as applied to this situation is that which requires ‘… a system of moral practice directly resulting from an adherence to the belief; …” The Fellowship of Friends organization appears to have only the slightest of systems. . . .”

Ya think?

12. Golden Veil - October 7, 2014

Am I the only visitor that sees a video of Jeff Goldblum at the top of this page, 143? Here in this light bulb advertisement he plays a luxury loving narcissist, with servile attendants – apropos, ain’t it?!

13. Golden Veil - October 7, 2014

Well, it disappeared – so here it is – silly thing!

14. Wondering Who's Watching - October 7, 2014

Besides a religious exemption, Fellowship of Friends (FoF) is claiming a Welfare Exemption. As I see it, a Welfare Exemption must show that the general community benefits, not just a particular select group of ‘members,’ as it is with FoF. Does FoF benefit the general community in Yuba County? If so, how? Or, do they only serve their own selfish purposes and its members? Can they show how the general public can access the same benefits that the members enjoy, on the same, or similar, terms? Look at any legitimate religious organization and you will see a vast difference, in this regard, between them and FoF. Why is that? Some are genuinely trying to implement the spirit of the laws.

Also, tax exempt status with IRS or CA State does not immediately grant county property tax exemptions.

This ‘exclusivity’ problem could also impact FoF’s religious exemption claims as well. They ain’t open to just anybody.

15. Robert Stolzle - October 7, 2014

I don’t have much to lend to the current discussion, but from what I read here, there is no legal or tax distinction between a church and a cult. Is this correct? It is obvious to most anyone in the FoF that it almost entirely benefits burden and his inner circle, but the same could be said of the Catholic church hierarchy with the pope and bishops.

I recall being told, probably by Stella, that there was a great deal of worry and hand wringing over the original church designation, but I don’t remember hearing the basis of their concern. Anyone here know what it might have been? It could be the Achilles heel of the operation. Is the distinction between a required payment and a free will donation any part of the legal definition of a “church”? The FoF payment requirement is clearly posted; also, how does a fan club differ legally from a church?

While $600,000 “ain’t chicken feed” it seems kind of petty and altogether money grubbing for an “enlightened spiritual being” who is about to “ascend to the next plain of existence” to be concerned over such trivial issues. Could there be some financial distress permeating the FoF?

Bob Stolzle

16. joeyvirgo - October 9, 2014

“I recall being told, probably by Stella, that there was a great deal of worry and hand wringing over the original church designation, but I don’t remember hearing the basis of their concern.”

I remember such a discussion, too, but I was a naive follower in 1976 and believed that the major concern was whether the spirit of the FoF would finally be compromised by visibly hooking up with the government. The FoF was supposed to be a “hidden teaching,” so how could its invisibility be maintained when it was openly connected to a controlling, big-brother-type government?

Whether my belief that the major concern was truly about the hidden and free nature of the esoteric teachings of the FoF or about some more materialistic value is still a question for me. I just had the impression at the time that the major concern was spiritual.

17. shardofoblivion - October 11, 2014

What heavy equipment can you rent for $4?

18. ton2u - October 12, 2014

not an endorsement but a point of view:


19. brucelevy - October 12, 2014

18. ton2u

Sounds right.

20. brucelevy - October 13, 2014

Sounds just like Robert…http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/ohio-pastor-forced-vasectomies-abortions-because-kids-divert-money-away-from-church-report/

“…ormer members of Grace Cathedral have accused televangelist Ernest Angley of forcing them to have abortions, and vasectomies. And they said that he sexually abused boys in the church, which he has denied.

In the first part of a six-part series on Sunday, the Akron Beacon Journal said that church members had provided it with a recording of a recent church service where 93-year-old televangelist Ernest Angley addressed accusations that he had inappropriately touched a former pastor.

“I’m not a homosexual. God wouldn’t use a homosexual like he uses me. He calls me his prophet, and indeed I am,” Angley explained. “They called Jesus a homosexual, did you know that? And still do. Because he was with men.”

As for the claim that Angley encouraged men in the church to have vasectomies, he said that he had “helped so many of the boys down through the years.”

“They had their misgivings,” he recalled. “Sure, I’d have them uncover themselves, but I did not handle them at all.”…

21. WhaleRider - October 13, 2014

From the link above…In his view, the point of religion is to show you that your ego doesn’t really exist inherently. Ego is something you build up to make you think you exist, but it is not necessary and in the long run causes more suffering.

From my view, the point of religion is to disempower you and make you subject to the will of another.

“Spirituality” is something you build up to make you think you exist in the “afterlife”, but it is also unnecessary and in the long run causes just as much suffering, perhaps even more, in my experience, because it is based upon superstition and delusion.

So is the point to avoid suffering in life, not to feel pain?

Good luck with that.

The idea of “unnecessary suffering”, is an illusion and clever marketing, IMO.

Nobody in their right mind wants to suffer…but that doesn’t negate the fact that we need to suffer in order to grow and mature or be physically strong. Exercise is suffering, for goodness sake!

It pains me to read Eastern gurus speaking pejoratively about the term “ego” in such a way as to infer that they have “arrived” at an egoless state, and that one must fight against the ego to be more “enlightened”. That’s yakshit.

IMO, one can posess an ego in the context of the larger Self, and still be well-adjusted, healthy and happy, without the need to subject oneself to the will of a spiritual authority figure.

Without the sense of the greater Self, (to remember) which is fostered through age and experience, the ego feels vulnerable and flimsy. And rightfully so, for each night when we dream the inner guru shows the ego how weak it really is. That’s why the immature ego grabs onto “name brand” material objects…or “important” people, or “high energy” places for compensation. It’s just about “materialism”.

And you can bet the guru incites “higher emotional states” in his or her dependent followers, while at the same time denouncing those states…and then collects his paycheck.

22. Security Breach - October 13, 2014

21. WhaleRider October 13, 2014

“…for each night when we dream the inner guru shows the ego how weak it really is.”

I smell some voodoo cooking.

23. WhaleRider - October 13, 2014


24. Jomo Piñata - October 14, 2014

22/Security Breach

Isn’t he just saying, when you go to sleep, the dream is stronger than any sense of personal identity you carry into your dream, that generally speaking you don’t control your dream or even your identity in your dream, and further (“the inner guru”) that there’s a mysterious learning process that happens in dreams, that dreams may have something to teach us?

25. Security Breach - October 14, 2014

24. Jomo Piñata – October 14, 2014

“…further (“the inner guru”) that there’s a mysterious learning process that happens in dreams, that dreams may have something to teach us?”

Dream learning. Sure. That’s the ticket. No wonder the population of the world is so composed. It’s the subconscious education we are all getting in bed at night.

26. WhaleRider - October 14, 2014

@Security Breach
Actually, if you do an informal survey of those around you, you’ll find that most people don’t pay much attention to their dreams, unless they have nightmares.

And nightmares seem so frightening to the ego because not only do they seem real when you are experiencing them, but most people choose to interpret their nightmares literally.

If you dream someone is in your house about to do you harm, you are more than likely going to wake up believing for a few moments that there was. I know I have and any little subsequent sound I hear in the house gives me goosebumps. You might even go check to make sure the front door was locked, not really taking into account how terrifying it is for the ego to contemplate the reality of our eventual death, and thus locking out that painful realization outside in the darkness of the night.

You might, as in “A Christmas Carol”, choose to become a better person as a result of a nightmare.

Or you might even have a dream that you could fly, as I enjoy having after I make personal break throughs in my conscious life.

27. silentpurr - October 14, 2014

I dreamed last night that I was pushing a baby carriage up a steep snowy hill. Little rivlets of melted snow made it difficult to navigate the unpaved muddy road.It was dusk. Suddenly around the corner to the right someone was flashing their lights. Coming up behind me another vehicle flashed their headlights as well. Then there appeared an enormous male mountain lion on the road above me. His eyes were fixed upon me at that moment I looked down and saw Higgs b my Sphynx cat curled in the seat. I knew instantly we were both in big trouble. In my dream I said to myself ‘I want to wake up now’ and I did! Something in me knew not to go too far into terror.

28. Security Breach - October 14, 2014

29. Security Breach - October 14, 2014
30. ton2u - October 14, 2014

21 whalerider
the whole quote was:
“Don’t try to reinforce your ego through material things, belief systems like religion, or certain emotional states of mind.” In his view, the point of religion is to show you that your ego doesn’t really exist inherently. Ego is something you build up to make you think you exist, but it is not necessary and in the long run causes more suffering.”

When taken in context it’s more akin to what you’re saying, i.e. religion is a source of problems for humans…. (by implication so too the ego). Like I said, it’s a point of view and the contrary can be argued… e.g. religions do some good in the world and the ego has it’s ‘healthy’ function…. etc. the link was posted in response to joevirgo 16 questioning the spirit/matter “polarity” in relation to burton’s scam… see a connection? As for “Eastern gurus” — we all have our biases, a question is how to see through them(?)

31. WhaleRider - October 14, 2014

Thank you for sharing your most excellent dream!

“Something in me”…now that brought tears to my eyes.

Last night I dreamed about clearing some forested land for Nigel, a friend of mine. Even without him there with me, I somehow knew he wanted to put in a nice green lawn, and I was confronted by still some small leafless sticks left poking out of the dirt. Like magic, a pair of hedge shears appeared in my hands, allowing me to finish the job. Then I came upon a small cedar-like bush which I decided to keep alive and proceeded to trim into an oval shape. Then I showed someone a row of several tall trees that had been cut down which I sensed might have angered them, so I had to reassure them that the trees would not have been killed in vain, but would be milled into lumber to build a house.

For me, this dream was about trimming and cultivating primal elements of my subconscious into beauty and transforming them into something in which to dwell. The amazing part, the lesson I want to remember of myself, is how inner resources appear unexpectedly.

32. Security Breach - October 14, 2014

“Ah! böwakawa poussé, poussé”


33. WhaleRider - October 14, 2014

I’m with you on the spirit/matter polarity front and how it applies to burton’s warped religion. It was Trungpa’s point of view I was addressing. You were clearly not endorsing him.

IMO, more often than not, whether it is an eastern guru or an office worker at the water cooler, a discussion about this or that person having an “ego” is really referring to the person in question having a narcissistic personality…and yet it still boils down to one ego talking about another ego.

For me, in the context of the FOF, the issue is how the ego is equated with the cult idea of “false personality” as a part of us that needs to somehow be shunned in order to evolve.

This is what leads the seeker away from the truth about themselves when they join a cult, IMO.

After a period of indoctrination, the cult follower simply exchanges their weak pre-cult “false” personality for a “true” personality sanctioned by the holier than thou cult leader.

IMO, the parts of our personality that are “false”, as far as I can tell, are the elements of our psyche that have been ingrained and subconsciously incorporated from our parents, care givers, or other authority figures from our childhood, and not the whole personality or ego in and of itself.

Take for example a person with a self-deprecating, self-sabotaging, critical voice stuck in their head stemming from a critical, intrusive, and over-bearing parent…causing the person to have chronic low self-esteem and depressed mood.

Friends and acquaintances cannot fathom why the person feels that way about themselves when so much of the person’s outer life might actually be going quite well, as compared to others. But for that person, what they constantly reinforce in themselves about their unworthiness becomes their life, sometimes with tragic consequences.

It seems to me that the cult narrative exploits that critical voice in followers, deflecting and projecting the criticism onto non-cult members, and splitting the person against themselves (lower/higher, false/true), rather than helping to heal the individual and confront the false testimony they are giving themselves and the world.

In fact several FOF members have committed suicide.

Ironically, what heals such a person is the growth of a healthy ego that knows its limits and boundaries, coupled with an increased awareness of the greater Self, which includes (rather than excludes) the subconscious and its manifestations such as dreams, IMHO.

34. Barbara - October 15, 2014

Few pages back paul gregory mentioned “Words to the Wise” by Manly P. Hall…
“DECEPTION is our first consideration. The exploitation of the supernatural has been a successful and remunerative profession in human society ever since the beginning of civilization. Religions have been in constant processes of reformation, and reformation is nothing more or less than a revolt against corruption. Wherever deception is profitable, it must always be suspected. Deception may be profitable either in terms of money or in terms of satisfied vanity. In the case of organizations, the monetary factor is most likely to predominate. In the case of individuals, it is most likely to be the vanity factor” (97)

Thank you Paul Gregory, I enjoy the book.

35. brucelevy - October 15, 2014
36. silentpurr - October 15, 2014

” If your dreams don’t scare you, they aren’t big enough.”
Ellen Johnson Sirleaf

joeyvirgo - October 15, 2014


A Jew reports about a Jew reporting about Jew who believes God is a hard-wired expression of Narcissism. Jewish testimony.

37. brucelevy - October 15, 2014


Nowhere did it even imply that “God is a hard-wired expression of Narcissism”.

38. brucelevy - October 15, 2014

And what’s with the “Jew, and Jew, and Jew” bull shit?

39. joeyvirgo - October 15, 2014


Just calling it like I see it is all. It’s all there from the provider of the link to the author of the article to the scientist addressed in the article.

You really ought to try looking at sources, including reading the title of the link as well as its content. Got a problem with the truth?

40. paul gregory - October 15, 2014

34. Barbara – October 15, 2014
Did I? I’ve never read a book by Manly P Hall. Perhaps I quoted Mr P Hall, it does seem apt, doesn’t it?
A long time ago I read of bit of Anders Nygren’s ‘Agape and Eros’. That’s a good book…

41. Security Breach - October 15, 2014

joeyvirgo – October 15, 2014


“A Jew reports about a Jew reporting about [a] Jew who believes God is a hard-wired expression of Narcissism. Jewish testimony.”

You’d think that after Einstein rearranged the universe and brought about the modern world we all so much enjoy that people would lay off denigrating the Jews.

Allow me to be the first to apologize for “Joe’s” oblique-ish racism.

42. brucelevy - October 16, 2014

41. Security Breach

It’s always useful when someone reveals themselves. One gets better context.

43. joeyvirgo - October 16, 2014

41 and 42

Dang! You nabbed me! How do you guys do it, eh?

Thanks for the kitschy Dumb and Dumber re-enactment of the Emperor’s New Clothes here. I really enjoyed the humorous play and performance you both have put on thus far. Neither one knows shit but both are confident the other one has a grip on things. LOL!

44. brucelevy - October 16, 2014

Is greg back?

45. brucelevy - October 16, 2014

One thing you can’t hide is when you’re crippled inside.

46. Security Breach - October 16, 2014

44. brucelevy – October 16, 2014

“Is greg back?”


47. paul gregory - October 16, 2014


This isn’t actually an anti-Semitic forum. There are forums for people like you, so you needn’t feel alone. There is also a long forgotten mystical technique called ‘banging your head against a brick wall’. You may be pursuing this technique, but this forum is not really about that. It’s not about self-harm, in the sense of your self-harm. Can you understand that?

48. Robert Stolzle - October 16, 2014


How did everyone wander into the weed patch and get lost?

And the talk about “the Ego” as if everyone’s understanding and definitions were the same. I’d have assumed that the introspection from a modest FoF tenure would have led most of you to the understanding that “reality” is, at best, a consensus opinion. We have a tendency, because of math and physics (i.e. the concepts of zero and infinity), to assume that there is some greater reality beyond all our senses and measuring devices, but there is no real proof that your imaginary friend is anything but bad wiring……and yet it informs your understanding of the world and whether you believe something or not.

IMO religions evolved from the sense of me as a thing separate from the world and their only tangible benefit is to teach people to get along and be thereby a civilizing influence….and even that runs off the rails periodically. I choose to believe in a God because I don’t want to imagine that humans are “in control”…..as witnessed by this blog.

Bob Stolzle

49. Barbara - October 16, 2014

50. joeyvirgo - October 16, 2014

paul gregory,

I have no idea what you’re talking about, because like the others commenting here, there’s just a whole lot of bullshit going on. la-de-da psycho-babble bullshit. You all make up shit as you go along, making up rules for others to follow, while you and yours all do whatever the fuck you want to say or do, contradicting yourselves by the dump-load, because you’re the real regulars, the “real deal,” or so you like to think. I just say fuck you, behaving as if your shit don’t stink and that this blog is not about your self-harm, when that’s exactly what it is about: all of you have felt injured by Robert Burton’s big dick or big stick. Boo too, boo too, but you want to preach something ridiculous like this blog is not about “my” self-harm. LOL!

The problem is Burton wasn’t a sociopathic killer. He could have eliminated you and the rest if he were a long time ago and all this bullshit and filler wouldn’t exist.

51. joeyvirgo - October 16, 2014


And as for this not being an anti-Semitic forum, it is a racist forum, a particularly pernicious racist forum because the mere mention of the word jew brings up the hackles of any jew and all jew supporters and the verbal knives come out and an irrational attack beings, whether or not anything “anti” was ever said. Look at the pot calling the kettle black. If you won’t want to look at your own programming while preaching to others that their programming is mistaken, you’re just playing the role of the hypocrite. Twas ever so. And so it is.

52. Security Breach - October 16, 2014

I don’t believe in Mothra.


53. ton2u - October 16, 2014
54. Security Breach - October 16, 2014

53. ton2u – October 16, 2014

55. fofblogmoderator - October 16, 2014

Joeyvirgo- why are you here? Just curious….

joeyvirgo - October 16, 2014

Why do you ask? Just curious.

56. Tempus Fugit - October 17, 2014

I wanted to repeat a suggestion I’ve offered several times before that helps me navigate the blog.

If anyone (not you, Anyone) is posting messages I consider a waste of my time I just skip over them and move on. Giving attention to unwanted behavior just reinforces it.

If someone (not you, Someone) is repeatedly posting meaningless, spurious, or malicious comments I trust the blog moderator will just give them a time out.

Seems joeyvirgo is tempting this very intervention.

57. fofblogmoderator - October 17, 2014

Joey-Your 1st post seemed innocuous and your latest posts have seemed venomous. Have you read this blog since it started in 2008? There have been some very interesting posts over the years. I would not judge this blog by the last 5 pages or 10 pages or even 100 pages. You need to look back and see the breadth of this blog. I honestly don’t read too many posts here any more. I just check in and scan it a couple of times a week. I certainly don’t agree with all the opinions or statements made here, but I don’t feel compelled to say anything about it. I just move on. Maybe you should do the same.

Just sayin..

58. paul gregory - October 17, 2014

Hey Joe, no, I’m really a bad person, a total hypocrite, and I’m like all of them, telling the whole world how to live the whole time. But I can also, like, sense when someones crazy? Your like someone who’s gone into a fish restaurant to have a long, angry and detailed discussion about meat, being a devout vegetarian. Erm, you don’t make any sense. Nor will you. Why don’t you just say why you think they’re all – cunts! – there, I said it. But instead you fanny around all over the place, a bit like a drunk at a bus stop. The pointlessness of it has a kind of admirable quality, but isn’t it a bit, also, like ‘wrong work of centres?’ Your communication lacks substance or direction.
What do you want? Can’t you just say it in simple terms? What is it that you would like to communicate? If it is difficult for you, perhaps you could try a drawing? Really get your feelings out on paper. Don’t worry if you break the crayons.
Anyway, I think what I’m going to do, is ignore you. I wish I didn’t have to, because you ‘crack me up’, but if I carry on it’s like I’m enabling you or something?

59. brucelevy - October 17, 2014

Really, don’t feed Greg. Are you masochists?

60. WhaleRider - October 17, 2014

“I honestly don’t read too many posts here any more. I just check in and scan it a couple of times a week. I certainly don’t agree with all the opinions or statements made here, but I don’t feel compelled to say anything about it. I just move on.”

With all due respect for your efforts as moderator, you have said something, for which I commend you. That is humane of you.

Obviously “moving on”, scrolling down, or ignoring troll behavior will not make it go away.

The same could be said of dealing with a dedicated alcoholic with the uncontrollable urge to sabotage themselves and those around them.

Experience informs us that the alcoholic’s thirst for alcohol will not subside on its own, nor will they respond to reason.

At some point someone (yes you someone) will have to intervene both on behalf of the individual and to mitigate the collateral damage to the rest of us.

61. Robert Stolzle - October 17, 2014

How can anyone posting here really care one whit about the others’ race or religion? Do any of you still think that is important after chewing through the FoF for a couple of years or more? Hell, I don’t even know the sex of anyone posting here and other than idle curiosity, don’t really care.

Joey- my recollection of Stella’s comments regarding the early worries about the FoF qualifying as a church for tax purposes was that it was a financial concern. The Fourth Way was never a secret society that needed anonymity to function (the fakir, the yogi, the monk and me). I always saw the FoF as a “school” for teaching, not a spiritual organization dispensing arcane rites, but that was just me.

Bob Stolzle

62. Security Breach - October 17, 2014

60. WhaleRider – October 17, 2014

“Experience informs us that the alcoholic’s thirst for alcohol will not subside on its own, nor will they respond to reason.

At some point someone will have to intervene both on behalf of the individual and to mitigate the collateral damage to the rest of us.”

If alcohol is a metaphor for craving attention then the obvious question that arises, since you used the metaphor yourself, is this: Haven’t you been posting on this blog, out in public with many personal confessions, exposures and boasts, for nearly a decade?

Do you ever examine your own addictive compulsions?

I ask because the tone of self-convinced “above all reproach” is palpable in your words. As a self-righteous defender of the public from the disturbance of “alcohol” (attention craving) do you not recognize your own “drinking?”

Has it been ten years out here in the public eye as first a cult sex slave, then getting divorced because of your activity here (remember “weeping on the blog”?, then enlightened psychiatrist, etc., all done for the desperate need of other people gawking at your personal life?

When do you give up the bottle?

63. Mick - October 17, 2014

Some post to please themselves and to displease others and be hurtful. They like to puff themselves up and tend to be easily upset.

64. joeyvirgo - October 17, 2014

61. Robert Stotzle

“I recall being told, probably by Stella, that there was a great deal of worry and hand wringing over the original church designation, but I don’t remember hearing the basis of their concern.”

I guess you suddenly found your memory.

The Fellowship of Friends, when I joined in 1976, was most certainly a secret society. We dressed exactly like everyone else in society intentionally in order to remain invisible and we refrained from using our secret and esoteric language with each other in public as well because we believed we were a secret society and did not want to attract undue attention and discredit our secret and esoteric knowledge to “life people” who could misuse it or misinterpret it. We put bookmarks into books by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky on the sly, that is, in secret.

65. Robert Stolzle - October 18, 2014


Most everyone posting here is of the opinion that the FoF was and is anything but a “church” in spite of its tax status. My inquiry regarding Stella’s comment intended to suggest there might have been and still be some “Achilles Heel” in the IRS classification of the FoF as a church. Unless I have become deaf and dumber, I sense that the fondest desire of the people posting here is to to see RB and the FoF dead and gone.

You are correct that the FoF was secretive. We were supposed to be “in life, but not of life” and not to attract attention and thereby feed our “false personality” by appearing or acting differently from “all the dead life people”, who were undeserving of our attention. The bookmarks were placed on the sly because the bookstores didn’t want them in their books….and they were advertising. I never did learn the secret handshake.

Robert Stolzle

66. Security Breach - October 18, 2014


“It always amazes me that more people are not interested in the idea of conscious evolution. The idea that a man (or woman) can, by making specific inner efforts, establish a permanent principle of self-consciousness—and thereby create an astral body that survives the death of the physical body—seems to me to be not only obvious but also simple and elegant. Yet everywhere I look, this idea is ignored and every kind of nonsense is touted. I think people will look back on our age and wonder what we were thinking.” ~William Page (current Fellowship of Friends member)

“…and every kind of nonsense is touted…”

Nonsense such as that certain people in the FOF will “wake up” in their “next life” as famous figures in history, including Christ?

Nonsense such as that ancient conscious cavemen realized that a sequence of six rhino droppings was the key to conscious evolution?

This list of absurdity from your cult leader could go on for dozens of pages.

Matthew 7:4:

“How can you say to your brothers, ‘Let me take the blinder out of your mind,’ when all the time there is full-blown insanity in your own mind?”

67. Robert Stolzle - October 19, 2014


Conscious evolution is something I’ve worked on most of my life and, although self-assessment is dicey, I’d like to think I’m a better person now than thirty years ago. I’d also claim to have a better “understanding” of the world. But, you lost me with the “astral body” notion. Millions of people believe in a life after death, but there is no verifiable, reproducible evidence to indicate that anything about “us” survives death. “Working” on something that probably doesn’t exist is really tricky and other than the various guidelines from the world’s religions, there are no proven techniques.

Bob Stolzle

68. WhaleRider - October 19, 2014
69. Security Breach - October 19, 2014

67. Robert Stolzle – October 19, 2014

“But, you lost me with the “astral body” notion.”

I was quoting William Page, the author of the article. I am not William Page.

“…but there is no verifiable, reproducible evidence to indicate that anything about “us” survives death.”

“…there are no proven techniques.”

Ever tried dying? Try it. All the proof you need is right there.

Let us know.

70. shardofoblivion - October 19, 2014

There is very interesting work going on in neuro science about consciousness, and Metsinger is a philosopher who takes everything that science is uncovering and puts it together to come up with the concept of the ego tunnel, which is transparent to us, we look straight through it most of the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFjY1fAcESs

71. WhaleRider - October 19, 2014

72. WhaleRider - October 19, 2014

73. brucelevy - October 21, 2014

Same shit, different face…

Televangelist Ernest Angley has long controlled members of his Akron-area congregation by advising them not to have children, shunning those who leave the church and using free labor at his for-profit buffet restaurant and television station, according to a two-month newspaper investigation.

The Akron Beacon Journal published a series of articles starting last week after interviewing more than 20 former members of Grace Cathedral in the Akron suburb of Cuyahoga Falls. Some of those interviewed described Angley’s church as a cult.


74. Robert Stolzle - October 22, 2014


Sorry about that, I misread your post #66. I believe we basically agree on the gullibility of most people as it regards salvation in the afterlife. The need to believe certainly makes it easy for charlatans of all stripes. Perhaps the better question is how this psychological weakness can be overcome without a stint in the FoF or some other cult.

Bob Stolzle

75. Mick - October 22, 2014

But Bob, if there were an answer to that question it wouldn’t be of any use to anyone who already has been (or is) in such a group. In some strange way the experience of the negative side may be necessary in order to be able to appreciate the positive aspect. As some songsmith pointed out: “You learn the hard way every time.”

76. Robert Stolzle - October 22, 2014

I’m pretty sure you’re right about how we learn. I still like to fantasize that there might be some “magic” answer to the ‘young uns’ question: “Should I join this bunch of kooks and move to the jungle so that I can be closer to God?” The magic answer would be so persuasive, impassioned and logical that the “prospective student” would immediately regain their senses and turn away from the cult in question. I’m also pretty certain there is not any one good answer, but still wonder why some people find this ‘spiritual search’ so compelling while others are fulfilled by chasing status, women and money……damned “magnetic center”……and are those pursuits really mutually exclusive? Can you be a rich monk?

Bob Stolzle

77. Linda Jo - October 23, 2014

Hi Friends,

I posted the following letter last night on The Gentle Souls’ Revolution blog (Re: Alex Horn & Co.)

Dear Fred and Bob, Jeannine and Kathleen,

Almost 70 years ago, when I was born in Dallas, my maternal grandparents and most of the Truelock family members resided in Earth, Texas – a small farm community – naturally assuming they lived in a free country where everybody had certain human rights and freedoms.

If you’re free to examine your assumptions, or a few “School” perps and their assumptions, take a look at Q&A Cult Leaders, Dictators and Predators, on A little Survivor’s Handbook in progress, created and updated for current and former cult victims, trauma and abuse victims, incest and rape victims, around the world.

(Apparently, Alex and Sharon were both ignorant and unaware of the fact that abuse is a crime and crying shame – esp. rape – in every case, time and place, way, shape and form it takes.)

For a breath of fresh air, well-chosen analogy and Ancient Way to New Freedom, see Human Evolution and pages from Diffusion of Sufi Ideas in the West.

With love and best wishes,
Linda (and Sam)

. . . . . . .

Dear Tim Campion,

Sam and I need assistance. Shortly after creating our butterfly page/”School” Stories., we quickly picked out some FOF stories and posted them on our website. We need to know which comments and stories you and WhaleRider, et al. highly recommend.

Furthermore, last week (in the wee hours of the morning) I came across a really significant comment here on FOF (Can’t recall who wrote it or where it is) listing several reasons why sexual abuse victims do not come forward. Please find that comment and send it to me asap.

When Horn’s sexual abuse came up on GSR in March, I began the grueling task of extending the Q&A Circa 1970 (now called Q&A Cult Leaders, etc.), also including Burton.

Linda Jo

78. Robert Stolzle - October 23, 2014

Linda Jo, et al.-
What happened to Alex Horn’s group when he departed this plane? Hopefully it vanished into the ether with his imaginary soul.

Bob Stolzle

79. Linda Jo - October 24, 2014

Hi Bob,

Here’s what I’ve heard and figured out (in a nutshell):

In S.F. and late ’78, when Alex Horn and Sharon Gans-Horn were being investigated by a few nosy police officers and newspaper reporters, the criminal frauds and theater cult leaders fled in fear of getting arrested. A and S also convinced a whole bunch of “students” to pack up and follow them across the U.S. – to repeat history, finance and support their grandiose fantasies, play “larger-than-life” roles and put on big stage productions, set up and maintain their theaters, “groups” and “classes” – including their “retreat” in Montana and “schools” in Boston, New York and Amsterdam.

About 23 years ago, a bunch of “older students” got totally fed up with Horn’s abuse and gave his wife an ultimatum: she would either leave her abusive husband, or they would leave her high and dry. Sharon arranged a secret meeting where they could confront Alex – without her being on the scene. At some point, before stepping out of the room, Sharon advised the group to take a vote: “Raise your hand if you want Alex to leave and not be your teacher.” To Horn’s surprise, they all raised their hands and voted him out.

Now the big drama queen would become the big boss and behemoth, cult leader and dictator. “Teacher S” would play God and make all the rules, claim she knew best and must be obeyed on and off stage – in and out of “school” – here, there and everywhere.

Her former playmate – presumed “perfect partner,” “husband” and “soul mate” – “great lover” and “great teacher, playwright, and director of The Everyman Theatre” and “Theatre of All Possibilities” in S.F. – would keep a low profile; “teach” his own small “esoteric group” and “classes” in New York, where each “patsy” would pay the old con man $500 in cash, per month. When Horn was too befuddled and incapacitated “to teach” or “carry out his higher aims and objectives,” Sharon saw to it that her beloved “soul mate” was pampered and taken care of by various male “students,” lackeys and nurse maids – until he bit the dust (Sept. 30, 2007).

“Teacher S” is still ruling the roost in Boston and New York.

80. shardofoblivion - October 25, 2014

“Teacher S” at 2:47 and following, playing a human companion that the Tralfamadoreans provide for Billy Pilgrim whilst they observe him in their zoo.

81. brucelevy - October 26, 2014

80. shardofoblivion

Interesting. Sharon Glanz (Alex Horn’s wife) was Billie’s wife killed in the car crash.

82. brucelevy - October 26, 2014

Sorry, Sharon Gans

83. brucelevy - October 26, 2014

She took over Alex’s “school”.

84. Linda Jo - October 26, 2014

Yep, I remember seeing Gans in Slaughterhouse-Five long ago. That’s pretty much how “the great actress” and “Hollywood movie star” from New York looked when Horn married her in S.F. and late ’72. Back then, the big drama queen thought she had “a thyroid problem” (resulting in morbid obesity). Sharon had and has no awareness of her malignant, narcissistic personality disorder (or Seven Deadly Sins, diseases and disabilities), resulting in pathological grandiosity, lying and stealing.

The Survivor’s Handbook and Q&A were originally created to finally and explicitly – once and for all – expose Horn and Gans as greedy, gross and grandiose actors, narcissists and hypocrites, tramps and lunatics, rank materialists and megalomaniacs, power trippers and control freaks, sex offenders and gas lighters, stage hogs and attention mongers, toxic waste, poop and garbage dispensers, pretending to be “conscious beings” and “teachers of ‘the Work’” (!!) While fleecing the flock and making a killing, the “great actor and actress” regurgitated catch-all phrases and technical terms – so-called “work terms” and “work ideas” – found in so-called “work books”.

After leaving A and S to their own devices in ’75, I started from scratch (What IS “the Work”?) and eventually joined The Institute for The Study of Human Knowledge, directed by Robert Ornstein in Palo Alto (near Stanford), where I occasionally worked as a volunteer in the small ISHK mail-order book store. …where I was in book heaven!

85. Parson Yorick - October 26, 2014

Wrong actress at 2:47. That is Valerie Perrine.

86. brucelevy - October 26, 2014

85. Parson Yorick

I wasn’t referring to Valerie Perrine.Sharon appears at 2:42, 2:52 an 3:00

87. Parson Yorick - October 26, 2014

Okay, I guess I only had eyes for Valerie. I read the book, saw the movie many years ago. Maybe it’s worth re-reading.

88. shardofoblivion - October 27, 2014

#84 Linda Jo, a great list of characteristics, that seem to fit Burton just as well as his teacher (not sure if Sharon Gans was part of it at the time Burton was in the troupe) It seems there is a “type” who create cults, but I also feel there is a type who join them and follow, as I did. I remember a sort of pathetic feeling that things were more ‘real’ in the presence of the teacher, and how much I would wish to be invited to attend a dinner on the occasions Burton would pass through on his European travels. Looking back at it makes me cringe, but it seems for me at least it may have been connected to a fear of my own impermanence, and the false hope that the charismatic leader of the cult could remedy that for me. That his attention would validate my existence. I count it as some progress that I am more at home with impermanence now, and though I still feel we do get some validation from others, our loved ones mainly but also everyone we interact with to some extent, I prefer the idea that it is to ourselves we will answer for our worth at the end of the day.

89. shardofoblivion - October 27, 2014

#85 Parson thanks for the correction, my mistake – I thought she played Montana Wildhack, it is oddly pleasing to find she was the dumpy wife.

90. Robert Stolzle - October 27, 2014

#84-Linda Jo-

Wow, don’t hold back! Seriously, You are the first person with some experience of Horn’s group I’ve heard from and I am curious to know how some of the Fourth Way ideas were used as compared to the FoF. Supposedly Gurdjieff used some sort of complicated dance.

#88 Shard-

There certainly seem to be various species of “wolves” and “sheep” in the human sphere and I am pretty sure that “there is no justice” here, either. With that happy start, I have inquired here before about what specific personality traits contribute to “the magnetic center” we all suffered from. Without stifling curiosity and inquiry is it possible to protect people from cults like the FoF. Some years ago there was a growth industry in the kidnapping and deprograming of “cult members”, usually by their parents. I think that technique was only occasionally successful; it is likely impossible to “save someone from themselves”. I see us as being a big social monkey and hard wired to seek membership in and affirmation from a group of almost any construction. The military has honed this “weakness” to a fine edge.

Bob Stolzle

91. Jomo Piñata - October 27, 2014

Bob, I found this piece by Dave Archer, about his Alex Horn group experiences, to be a good read:


“If your “Master” ever sucker-punches you in the stomach, wait until he/she’s off your case, then return the favor with brass knuckles in the face. A Magus never calls the cops. Never go to your first few months of meetings alone. Join up with a sumo. If they won’t let you join with a sumo: DON’T. If they will, witness for each other. Then if anyone beats the crap out of you, walk out of the meeting, cellphone 911, wait for the Subjective cops, and herd those stupid cop-sheep back into the meeting and swear out a sumo witnessed formal complaint for Conscious assault and battery. The teacher will make bail the same night, and the entire “School,” will disappear the next day, however, you will have bummed their evening, and there’s something to be said for that. Plus, the teacher will then be wanted by the police. Not that he/she isn’t already, but every little bit helps. It is said, that everybody in the Work eventually “falls”, (sooner than later) that is, has a group experience and finally sees themselves as others see them. Followed by becoming their own negative “enemy,” the same way they see “mechanical humanity”. It’s mystical mirrors, but it Works great on people suffering modern angst who need to dig in the dirt because their intellect is driving them crazy and they need to first “locate their body in time and space” using a shovel, then go out and get laid like never before, a lot, thus balancing the three brains, Intellectual, Emotional, and Crotch.”

92. Robert Stolzle - October 28, 2014


Thanks for the posting. I had no idea Horn was an outright sadist. What is it about obsessive, self centered behavior (narcissists) that makes people want to follow them? Was there some survival value back in cave man times or is it perhaps more modern boredom and that we see these yahoos as different and entertaining?

Bob Stolzle

93. Linda Jo - October 28, 2014

Thank Goodness for Dave Archer’s honesty and humor, heart and soul, Supping With Alex and Fourth Way Standup!

In his prime and “glory days” on Red Mountain, Horn was a master of deception, manipulation and deceit, coercive customs and intimidation tactics, theatrics and histrionics, con games, guilt trips, power trips and blame games, bullshit and horseshit, ego puke and elephant shit. (Back to this and these terms later.)

Meanwhile, Thomas Farber and Dave Archer and Bobby Burton (not to mention hundreds of others who wound up in the robber’s roost and “esoteric boot camp”) had no way of knowing that the so-called “conscious man” and “teacher of ‘the Work'” was one of many unscrupulous con men and wannabe rich tycoons, gurus and gangsters, cashing in on the Human Potential Movement and getting away with grand theft . . .

94. Associated Press - October 29, 2014

143/77. Linda Jo to Tim Campion:
‘Furthermore, last week (in the wee hours of the morning) I came across a really significant comment here on FOF (Can’t recall who wrote it or where it is) listing several reasons why sexual abuse victims do not come forward. Please find that comment and send it to me asap.’

Not the ‘listing several reasons why sexual abuse victims do not come forward,’ but perhaps useful:

98/69. Xavier Stewart Dent – November 8, 2010
‘there are numerous helpful links and resources on that Oprah site:


“Sexual Abuse Survivors’ First Steps Toward Healing”
By Howard R. Fradkin, PhD, LICDC
The Oprah Winfrey Show | November 05, 2010

Some excerpts:

First Steps for a Man Who’s Ready to Talk About His Abuse:

* Give yourself a big round of applause daily. It takes a lot of courage to do this, and one step at a time, you absolutely can heal and recover.

* Find somebody to talk to who’s safe. That may mean calling a therapist, mental health center or local psychological association. There are many types of trained therapists: psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, mental health, family, marital and pastoral counselors, as well as trained body workers and self-defense experts who can help. You can go online to find organizations that list therapists who are helpful. Be patient. You deserve to find a therapist who has been trained to work with male survivors. Having experience with women survivors helps, however, men do have unique needs. Some of you may feel safer talking to a male therapist, while others will definitely prefer a woman. What is important is finding a therapist who has the skills and the compassion to help you. If a therapist tells you, “That is the past, let go and focus on the present, as that is all you can change,” find a new therapist.

* Attend support groups. The Internet is filled with lots of resources, chat rooms and bulletin boards where you can go and talk to other men and just listen to other men share their stories. This is important because men need a community in order to heal. Remember it’s fine to just listen at first and only share a little at a time as you are ready. You will feel safer this way, and your safety is very important as you start and continue to recover.

* Know you’re not alone. Know there are other men out there who understand. You’re not isolated. There are other people who are going to understand. Remember the 200 men who stood in the Oprah Show audience holding up their childhood pictures on November 5, 2010.

* Take your time. Talking about your abuse is a process, and it’s really important that you be very gentle with yourself. Take your time and know this is not a race. We can take our time. We can be compassionate with ourselves. We can learn to be loyal to functionality and disloyal to dysfunction, which means men really have to examine the messages that got planted in their heads by their perpetrators and by usually well-meaning families. Messages like: “You should keep it to yourself. You have to be strong and powerful. You will hurt others if you tell.” You can learn to give yourself permission to be vulnerable.’

95. Associated Press - October 29, 2014

143/77. Linda Jo to Tim Campion:
‘Furthermore, last week (in the wee hours of the morning) I came across a really significant comment here on FOF (Can’t recall who wrote it or where it is) listing several reasons why sexual abuse victims do not come forward. Please find that comment and send it to me asap.’

on Sandusky case:

‘The reasons many survivors remain silent are not black and white. They are complex.


Survivors often don’t tell because they think they did something wrong or didn’t do something right. Quite simply, they blame themselves.

They assume there is something they could have done to stop the abuser. They regret what they did or what they did not do. They wonder if the perpetrator would have stopped had they screamed louder or fought harder. They ask themselves if they could have avoided the situation, the location, the person.

Even survivors whose lives were threatened—or the lives of their loved ones—succumb to self blame.


Survivors of sexual crimes are burdened with a deep sense of shame. The thought of revealing what they have endured—in explicit detail—can be overwhelming. It means they must relive the experience. It means they must remember things they do not want to remember and tell things they do not want to tell.

Many survivors are hesitant to give voice to the violation, the pain, the degradation, and the feeling of shear helplessness.

Fragile and traumatized, some survivors just are not ready—physically, emotionally and psychologically—to come forward.


In the mind of the survivor, there is much to fear. If the perpetrator has threatened them, they will fear for their lives. If the abuser has threatened their family, they will fear for the lives of their loved ones.

They may fear the unknowable. What will happen when I tell? Will I be believed? Will I be supported? Will the abuser be arrested or remain free? Will friends ridicule me? Will the people who I care about shun me?

Telling a secret of this magnitude would set an intangible series of events into motion. The survivor, who is fragile and traumatized, may not be equipped to deal with the extreme anxiety that accompanies the act of coming forward and facing the unknown.


Some survivors do not tell to protect their loved ones. We know this to be especially true with children. They understand that speaking the truth will inflict pain on their parents, and they may choose to protect their families from the emotional upheaval.

For these survivors, the shame, blame and fear of what happened is their burden to carry…and theirs alone.


The public stature of a perpetrator plays prominently in a survivor coming forward. If the abuser is a respected member of the community or an admired friend of the family, the chances of a survivor speaking out are significantly reduced.

In the case of Jerry Sandusky, out of the 10 young men who came forward, only one revealed the crime to a parent at the time the abuse occurred. The mother did everything right. She believed her son. She went to the university. She went to the police. She reported, and persevered. But the authorities dismissed her claims as baseless.


A crime of this magnitude forever changes a child’s life view. The belief that the world is a safe place is shattered.

Children grappling with the aftermath of sexual abuse are in coping mode. The shock of their experience stuns them into silence. The process of healing and recovery takes tremendous energy. They do not possess the strength to undergo further trauma. It takes everything they have just to carry on.’

96. Linda Jo - October 29, 2014

Dear Associated Press,

That’s it! “The reasons many survivors remain silent. . .” This is such an important article – speaking for me and millions of other abuse victims – together with “Sexual Abuse Survivors’ First Steps Toward Healing” by Dr. Howard Fradkin. Thank you sooo much!! I’ll put this info on our Handbook straightaway.

From my point of view, this educational FOF blog/discussion and Tim’s incomparable, “unauthorized Blogography of ‘the Teacher’ and His Cult” are Divine Interventions and Miracles on Earth! Ya’ll are so insightful and generous, supportive and informative! I’ve learned so much and many things I would never know, if not for YOU!

Btw: I finally came forward because I HAD to – because at least ONE raped mother, who lost her beloved child, had to expose the psycho-pseudo “teachers” and their foolishness, sickness, malice and madness – evil and unspeakable crimes, demands and expectations, fantasies and fabrications, accusations and projections.

97. Opus111 - October 30, 2014

Th course that Burton followed before starting FOF is finally coming online. Note that the lecture is only 4:44 minutes long

<img src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1kDso5ElFRg&quot;.

98. sallymcnally - October 31, 2014

I wanted to put the above online, which has gone viral. God Bless JP Sears!

99. Barbara - October 31, 2014

embed 🙂

100. Mick - October 31, 2014

“Control is like love, only it’s better for YOU.” – JP Sears

101. Robert Stolzle - October 31, 2014

Re: Sears Ultra Spiritual-

He must have been in the FoF for a time……

…….or do all gurus employ the same tricks?

Bob Stolzle

102. WhaleRider - October 31, 2014

Thanks Opus 111, that was a good belly laugh!!

JP Sears illustrates one of the hallmarks of ultra spiritual narcissism: idealization and devaluation
they go hand in hand.

Adopting the deluded belief that one is more “conscious” than others, which is a lie of the mind, neccisitates that one project one’s own unconsciousness onto others and devalue them as a defense against the painful truth: for the paradox of narcissisism is that although they may appear grandiose, the individual suffers from pathological low self-esteem.

It is building a castle upon sand.

103. We Were There - October 31, 2014

“Scans have revealed that its active ingredient, psilocybin, creates a hyperconnected mind that links regions of the brain that normally have nothing to do with each other.”

The ‘many I’s?’


104. Linda Jo - November 2, 2014

In many clever ways, JP’s parody captures the “clever insincerity” and superficiality of the “ultra spiritual” materialist and narcissist, neurotic and psychotic “goddess” and “guru” (Burton and Gans); also reminding me of the “ultra spiritual” – way back when it was ordained to “get high” (on something) “to be on a higher level of consciousness, knowing and being with the universe” (or something).

Although my college friends and I were neither “beatniks” nor “hippies” – we experimented with many mind-altering hallucinogenic, psychedelic, “consciousness-raising” drugs. Since we were right on the cusp of this “altered states revolution,” the psychedelics we tried were pure, unadulterated peyote, marijuana and hashish, LSD, mescaline and psilocybin pills or capsules. Hard drugs (like cocaine and heroin) were out of the question.

Burton’s insipid “spiritual” pretensions, fictions and fixations, delusions and hallucinations, charades and masquerades – false “identities” and concocted “selves” – “teachings” and “prophesies” – remind me of many insipid “dope heads,” “monkey minds” and “psycho-babblers,” “acid freaks” and “religious fanatics” we encountered, imagining themselves to be “on a higher level . . .”

Needless to say, drug induced “religious” and “spiritual” states, emotions, and experiences are NOT religion or spirituality – higher consciousness, knowledge or development.

Last year, when someone wondered if I was familiar with Thomas Farber’s Tales for the son of My Unborn Child, Sam and I walked up Shattuck Ave. and checked it out of the Berkeley Library. We soon put the author’s mind-boggling chapter, “Getting Religion” – about “a man named Alex” – on our website. Since I know Horn’s “philosophy” and “methods” – like the back of my hand – I could easily interpret all and read between the lines.

I wondered if Burton was there then.

As for Mr. G. and O., see Truth Be Told. . .

Just so you know, for as long as I live, I am going to be a freedom fighter and ghost buster, myth buster and cult buster, breaking ALL the “School rules” Horn and Gans ever made and expected their cult victims to obey for as long as we lived.

A big donkey and drama queen laden with books is still an ass and pre-teen. A rogue by any other name is still a thief. A wolf cub is destined to become a wolf, even if it is raised among men and imagines itself to be “a REAL Man” – or “goddess in a man’s body”.

A predator is a predator.

105. jomopinata - November 2, 2014

102/Whalerider re: idealization and devaluation–

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Motown Thoughts

Student: What do you think of your students?

Teacher: I love them and I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

Student: And your former students?

Teacher: Chain, chain, chain; chain of fools!

Fellowship Forum, Vol. 8, No. 4, April/May 1991

106. nigel harris price - November 4, 2014

I think the guiding principle for me is…..

“Once drained and regrown, no need for actual, or even, abstract revenge.”


“Come, my friends,
‘T is not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.”

For me, I am hoping to move to South Wales (land of my fathers) and help teach 18-25 year olds with learning difficulties, mental health issues and other disabilities…..

Good luck, all…..Nigel

107. Robert Stolzle - November 8, 2014

Linda, Nigel, et al,

Don’t quite know where to go with all the recent postings, but I’m still looking for insight into why we were particularly susceptible to the metaphysical palaver of the Fourth Way and the FoF. The postings regarding the connections created between different parts of the brain by hallucinogenic drugs and these new connections constituting the so called “magnetic center” certainly resonate with me. I can say that I pretty much “discovered” God on an LSD trip and very likely would never have bothered with the esoteric/metaphysical “quest” without that experience. I suppose the moral would be, “just say no.”

I’m not sure that psychedelic drug experiences are responsible for the vast majority of religious people, though. However, I can testify that between 1973 and 1977 almost everyone I met in the FoF had experimented with all manner of drugs and many, including me, still did. (It was labeled a “tramp feature” though.) Wouldn’t it be great to be able to slip RB a massive dose of LSD? I can’t think of a better way to bring down the FoF.

I remember being surprised that the FoF was so relieved to have been given the tax status of “church” because we were all asked to essentially “forsake life” and all its trappings that kept “the student” from achieving his “true” potential, but that when it came to “lifes” financial burdens we were expected to be able to make regular payments and the FoF was more than willing to wallow in “lifes” tax mud to make a buck. In hindsight there was lots more attention to money and less to metaphysics than any self respecting church would allow. I remember helping some very self important female students hunt for “air twist crystal” in the S. Lake Tahoe antique malls one day and being impressed with the level of self indulgence being exhibited with justification of “higher impressions” and thinking for who? What suckers we were! Anyone want a collection of Fourth Way books?

Robert Stolzle

108. WhaleRider - November 8, 2014

“Wouldn’t it be great to be able to slip RB a massive dose of LSD? I can’t think of a better way to bring down the FoF.”

God forbid. He might just start making sense.

Let’s think of another way. Public debate, perhaps?

109. paul gregory - November 9, 2014

The first study in LSD has just been completed in the UK for over 50 years, conducted by Dr David Nutt at Imperial College, London, in league with The Beckley Foundation. There are numerous reports of hallucinogens working effectively as treatments for depression, end of life anxiety and drug addiction, including alcohol addiction, when used in therapeutic settings.
We have hallucinogen receptors in the brain – 5-HT2A serotonin receptors. People who are depressed have more of these receptors for some reason. Hallucinogens turn off the Default Control Mechanism in the brain, leading to an increase in emotional experience and novel thoughts and perceptions. That is why different parts of the brain get talking to one another. Our internal brain policeman is put to sleep or sent on holiday.
We also have cannabinoid receptors in the brain, but also, pretty much everywhere else. Bones. Organs of sexual reproduction. Liver, pancreas and kidneys. It’s all to do with the Endocannabinoid System, and it’s what you have in common with all animal life, for about the past 600,000,000 years.

Only one plant has been found to contain these substances in abundance – Marijuana. THC resembles Anandamide, the first discovered endogenous cannabinoid. Anandamide is found in good chocolate, and has been shown as an effective treatment for skin and breast cancer.
Meditators when brain scanned apparently show similar results to those on psychedelics, but on acid and whatnot, the back of the brain is still active. Buying meditation techniques from anyone but a ‘trusted and reputable retailer’ is rather like scoring acid from Charlie Manson’s mates. Students will delightedly tell you that it is their intention to meditate all the time, whenever they are conscious enough to remember to meditate, and that is what makes them so special. It used to have something to do with Hydrogen 12, which is Love, apparently.
Alcohol is also a drug. Wine, a form of alcohol, is both Rumi and Jesus Christ’s ‘drug of choice’. It kills people, whereas cannabis heals and kills no-one.

110. nevasayneva - November 10, 2014

Re 107 Robert Stolzle:

“Don’t quite know where to go with all the recent postings, but I’m still looking for insight into why we were particularly susceptible to the metaphysical palaver of the Fourth Way and the FoF.”

Robert – If you are looking for answers for this question, there have been a few sociological researchers who have written on the subject, or rather have included that topic – why do people join cults?- in their writing. Margaret Singer, “Cults in our Midst” is one that I have enjoyed. There may be other books/articles that go over the subject. There seems to be common factors in why a lot of people end up in cults, as well as common factors as to why people stay even when they realize that something is a bit off, and finally maybe common factors as to why people leave.

One encouraging point is that even though for many people it takes a long time, many people do actually leave. It is not that easy to leave.
I suppose specific to the FOF it would be hard to measure but certainly > 80% leave. One has to be a bit of a diehard to stay >20 yrs.

I was a bit apprehensive about leaving myself, a bit like jumping into the unknown, but was quite glad that I did leave in the end. Even if the adjustment to being a joe soap (which one always was anyway) is an adjustment.

111. jomopinata - November 10, 2014

107//Robert Stolzle/susceptibility question:

I can recommend Philip Cushman’s 1986 article, “The Self-Besieged: Recruitment-Indoctrination Techniques in Restrictive Groups.” I know of no free copy online, but you can buy it, or read it for free if you have access to a good academic library, or even a not-so-good one with online journal subscriptions.

112. jomopinata - November 10, 2014
113. jomopinata - November 10, 2014

The Cushman article posits not only a theory of susceptibility, focusing on a particular generational cohort, but also a theory of recruitment, which I personally found eye-opening.

114. Jomo Piñata - November 10, 2014

“The post-World War II cohort grew into adolescence and adulthood during the political disruptions of the 1960s and 1970s. It was a time of political upheaval, war, protest, and political assassinations. It could well be considered a time of “social, political, and economic dislocation” sufficiently disorienting to cause “sudden shifts in social life.” Therefore, situationally induced narcissistic enfeeblement (caused by either individual or political wounds to the self), which leads to a need for a merger with a charismatic leader or a cohesive community, seems to be a prominent and understandable element in the precursor phase.” — Id. at p. 9

115. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 12, 2014

August 22, 2014 at 8:53am

I hope you all had a wonderful Rememberance day or whatever it is called such as maybe Veterans’ Day since most on here are veterans.

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way.
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind.
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day!

I think I can make it now, the pain is gone.
All of the bad feelings have disappeared.
Here is the rainbow I’ve been prayin’ for.
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day!

Look all around, there’s nothin’ but blue skies!
Look straight ahead, nothin’ but blue skies!

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way.
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind,
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day!
Johnny Nash, born August 19, 1940

Hasta la vista, Amigos !

116. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 12, 2014

re. Robert Stozle’s post 107 quote
” Don’t quite know where to go with all the recent postings, but I’m still looking for insight into why we were particularly susceptible to the metaphysical palaver of the Fourth Way and the FoF.”

Easy friends, I can feel the hair on your backs bristling already.

Robert Dear, ” we get what we ask for whether we are aware of the asking or not and whether or not we are aware of getting it. ” That is a summary.

Actually if you got that insight, in the past, present or future, there is a 50-50 chance that you would right now be standing at the front gate
begging for admittance. From my present perspective, a complete answer might require a thousand pages or so or I could also say it in one sentence such as the one above in quotation marks.

Here is one approach: Taking into consideration that we are all different, the most likely reason that you were susceptible is that you wanted in a powerful way to improve the quality of your consciousness. A part of you or another way of saying it is the whole of you knew that doing so would be good for your aim or to manifest your desire. I commend you for asking the question because it is a great idea to realize or be aware of what it is that we want. Sometimes this ” part of you ” will actually give you a nudge in a particular direction since you(one if you prefer) might just have a tendency to resist inspirations due to ego, fears, and unverified beliefs transmitted through the intellectual component. We often call this having ” second thoughts”.

So what might you do once there? The main tool we have in order to work with dark clouds or rain is experiences within relationships.
They give out the most emotional mirror images and as we all know repetition is also a good tool for learning stuff. Since we tend to carry the same suitcases from one relationship to another the results tend to also be the same. Read a few years’ worth of posts here and you will see that mostly the same is being repeated ad aeternum.

Anyone wishing to discuss anything with me personally or just for fun simply email me at brjbrisson at yahoo dot com. All is well.

117. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 12, 2014

Just skimming for now,
” “It always amazes me that more people are not interested in the idea of conscious evolution. The idea that a man (or woman) can, by making specific inner efforts, establish a permanent principle of self-consciousness—and thereby create an astral body that survives the death of the physical body—seems to me to be not only obvious but also simple and elegant. Yet everywhere I look, this idea is ignored and every kind of nonsense is touted. I think people will look back on our age and wonder what we were thinking.” ~William Page (current Fellowship of Friends member)”

The confusion here is that the ” astral body ” IS consciousness
so it already exists. Like William Page says consciousness evolves and taking part in lives in this world offers us the best contrast and the best conditions for that contrast to occur causing constant desire for change and thus expansion, novelty and diversity which then causes those who are stuck to re-evaluate and improve that quality of consciousness which William rightly states is love.
As for those who claim that something is not verifiable, well my friend that is simply an unverified belief unless it has been approached with open-minded skepticism, experimented with and statistically evaluated or measured. It is also useful to remember that any idea taken to extremes will turn into its opposite and there are excellent logical reasons for that too..

118. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 12, 2014

Fourthly and actually this was one of my intents from the start of this excursion for visiting, I want to offer my sincerest apology for any damage or delay I may have caused in the past in this venue by my short-sightedness and by my mechanical expressions of ego, fears and negative and/or unverified beliefs. Fortunately, these are better days and I can begin work at reversing that old trend.

119. Parson Yorick - November 13, 2014

A link to what was for me the best part of the FOF. I recognize a few names. http://apolloarts.org/2014/beethovens-9th-symphony/

joeyvirgo - November 13, 2014

Well, who knew!

Marla Volovna directs scenes of Act 1 of Apollo Opera’s production of Carmen.

120. Linda Jo - November 13, 2014

(re post 107) Bob Stolzle:

Since I was thirty something, I’ve been packing up and carting a stack of Fourth Way books from one place to another, thinking I might read The Theory of Celestial Influence and The Psychological Commentaries, etc. – someday.

When I came across the following info last year, I posted Ton’s comments in a (secret) facebook group of 45 “Fourth Way” cult victims, exiles and escapees from various fascist regimes and slave labor ops. (advertised as “esoteric groups” and “schools for higher consciousness, knowledge and development”), originally formed by Alex and Anne Horn, claiming to be “teaching ‘the Work’ together” and “separately” in the Sonoma hills . . . later re-formed by Alex and Sharon, claiming to be “teaching ‘the Work’ together” in San Francisco, Montana, and so on.

FYI: previously posted in The FOF Discussion, part 3(0)

February 19, 2008


Ya’ll probably know this already, nevertheless…

“…who joins a cult? The easy and most popular belief is that cult disciples are inadequates of low intelligence. But in her extensive study of cults, sociologist Eileen Barker has found the opposite. The normal cult member is of above average intelligence and comes from a well-balanced, middle-class background. What appears to be happening is that, as modern life becomes more secular and materialistic, an increasing number of intelligent people are finding life unfulfilling and meaningless … and if established religions fail to appeal to this increasing minority, then spiritual values are found in fringe cults – of which there are well over a thousand in Britain alone. And once hooked, the follower’s search for meaning, combined with the guru’s charisma, leads to a psychological process that guarantees obedience… Once a cult has been formed by a guru, individuals who feel a lacking in life are sucked into the madness of cultism through psychological coercion, brainwashing or mind control. People joining cults usually argue such techniques would not work on them, but the favored methods of meditation used by cults, combined with forms of sleep deprivation and bombarding the initiate with information, inevitably lead to, first, sensory overload, and second, obedience to the whims of a guru. Clearly cult membership also leads to a rejection of family ties as the cult becomes the new family….” etc.

. . . . . . . . . .

February 20, 2008


On the darker side, here’s an article called Sex, Drugs, and Cults… Although the article does talk about other types of drugs (alcohol for example) an interesting take is that the “drugs” referred to here are endogenous (i.e. dopamine and endorphins) which are produced under certain ‘cult conditions.’

“Two major evolved psychological mechanisms emerge from the past to make us susceptible to cults. Capture-bonding exemplified by Patty Hearst and the Stockholm Syndrome is one. Attention-reward is the other. Attention is the way social primates measure status. Attention indicates status and is highly rewarding because it causes the release of brain chemicals such as dopamine and endorphins. Actions lead to Attention that releases Rewarding brain chemicals. Drugs shortcut attention in the Action-Attention-Reward (AAR) brain system and lead to the repeated behaviour we call addiction. Gambling also causes misfiring of the AAR pathway. Memes that manifest as cults hijack this brain reward system by inducing high levels of attention behaviour between cult members. People may become irresponsible on either cults or drugs, sometimes resulting in severe damage… Cult gatherings or human-potential trainings are an ideal environment to observe first-hand what is technically called the ‘Stockholm Syndrome’… This is a situation in which those who are intimidated, controlled, or made to suffer, begin to love, admire, and even sometimes sexually desire their controllers or captors.”



121. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 13, 2014

Thank you Joey for the heads up. A fine birthday present !

122. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 13, 2014

Re. 120 – Linda Jo – There are a lot more types of addiction than the average Joe is aware of.
Addictions or what we call addictions are a lot more than just physical habits based on biology. The psychological ones are also physically entrenched at the cellular level. Among those is an addiction to being a victim.
All addictions have roots in a combination of memory and emotions, positive or negative. Among those we can also find most chronic illnesses and diseases as well as unwanted behavioral problems such as sexual deviations.
Statistics are useful for forming theories but they cannot on their own be regarded as factual. They must be verified through careful experimenting and validation.
Technology is such, primarily via the computational systems, that the near future will see such advances becoming commonly used and pretty well shut down most hospitals and prisons. The main difficuly is in the mappiong process. Experimenting is already taking place and only is held back by the unwillingness of the establishment and the fear addiction of human rights entities. However the weight of the results will I hope prevail and the sooner the better.

123. shardofoblivion - November 14, 2014

#119 thanks for that link Parson, I also recognised some names, which in truth made me a little sad.

I think the style and content in the publicity page says quite a lot about the FoF – here is how they describe the formation of the orchestra –

“The Apollo Symphony Orchestra’s beginnings evolved in a most unusual, yet natural way, as all music does: it starts from the heart that yearns to be moved by beautiful music. This evolution started in 1977, when a group of people within a small community in Northern California, most of whom were non-professional musicians, wished to form an orchestra.[…]Although the desire to establish an orchestra remained, it lacked a dedicated conductor. In 1981, as if by fate, a young conductor named Michael Goodwin moved to Northern California from Germany and learned of this desire of a group of people to form an orchestra ‘from scratch’. He took on the task and established the orchestra’s concert schedule, and lent his skills to honing the talent of his musicians, often arranging Master Classes led by these famous guest performers.”

I do like that “as if by fate” and the person who drafted it smiling their secret smile knowing as they do that the play is written – and they know the authors, how lucky they are!

124. Parson Yorick - November 14, 2014

A “cult for intellectuals” would be fated to attract some skilled copy-writers.

125. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 14, 2014

A cult identified as a fellowship of friends dedicated to work in a school of love would hardly attract only intellectuals.
Open-minded skepticism? Not likely since having spent some 12 years at the headquarters I had experiences and relationships with thousands of ” students” – adventurers- some of them so instinctive that it would make your head likely spin into orbit.
Intellectuals skirt emotionals like the plague pretty well anywhere, yet if the story is to become balanced beings, mixing with large varieties is a great advantage when it comes to developing higher quality consciousness which after all is exactly what we are.
Sure there are screw-ups and they can be found everywhere.
Sure there are negative experiences and once their usefulness can be seen and appreciated growth is ensured. Sheep are sheep and that is one fnn nasty habit and addiction which needs to be changed among the many others. Holy sheepshit, Badman, did I actually say that?
Now this comment was not dreamed up from inside the group nor just after leaving it but after being out as many years as being in, more than twelve each. Perspectives like most all of creation changes, sometimes more quickly and sometimes not. Evolution, and I am aware that some like to teach that it does not exist in spite of all the evidence, demands variety, contrast and the courage to change when conditions demand it. Even chickens eventually change but their constant clucking fool us into thinking? they cannot.
If there still exists judgement in your aura, lol, see how long it takes to clean it out whether it is positive or negative or some kind of combination of both, just for the fun of it.

126. Robert Stolzle - November 15, 2014

Ron, Linda, Shard, et al.-

Thanks for the insights, angles and links into the “magnetic center” and its preFoF origins. My own notion is that mankind, having somehow reached a degree of self awareness, looked around and decided there had to be a God somewhere because we realized that we’re not really in control of very much. And, what we have played around with has had less than great results—-not to say completely screwed up…..at best two steps forward and one back. We have an innate “weakness” in mindlessly accepting a “leader”.

But I digress, do any of you have any good ideas about how to lead anyone (say someone with a starving magnetic center approaching the FoF for the first time) away from RB’s traps? The whole FoF machine is well oiled and very seductive, even to me, today, and I’ve “been there and done that” and words can only go so far.

I know this is one of the primary purposes of this blog—and congrats to all—I’m sure it has had the intended effect of dissuading many would be students. And yet the FoF rolls on…..

Bob Stolzle

127. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 16, 2014

I think I made my present position on this subject clear but I will try saying it in another way just in case it turns out to be helpful.
Getting hit by baseball bats in the knees is obviously not a good way to learn how to walk the talk. However it might just be enough to prevent someone who is heading in the wrong direction with powerful momentum. It will never be enjoyable but it would offer an opportunity for change. If it works the joy could reappear. If it does not work, nothing essential is lost. That cannot normally be seen from a little picture reality context.

128. nigel harris price - November 16, 2014

Not sure how useful this is…..

I left the FOF unbalanced, 3 1/2 years of PTSD (i.e. a sort of depressive guilt about having been ‘cast out’). Finding out I was still capable of precious metal crafting and then, subsequently, the teaching of it by means of achieving a Certificate of Education in 2006 has grafted ‘self-empowerment’ upon my being.

Just recently (last June) I have become involved with Reiki (Google it) masters who work with harmonizing the emotions with the body and believe in the reconnecting to spirit (a far cry from the group-think/group feel/group-do attitude of the FOF.

Now, notwithstanding my admissions for bipolar, I feel there is something spiritually real in my life – at last.

129. Ron aka Renald - November 17, 2014

Nigel et al. – Fears are extremely difficult to erase or even overide. Beliefs also are difficult. Ego is the easiest of the three. The many Aye´s, lol.
Healings are useful because they offer the person healed usually much needed relief and a breather on the slippery slope of momentum. Your intent is what allowed you to meet with this Reiki opportunity.
Keep up the good work and drop all that old material which looked for blame or excuses. Your story which has been repeated ad aeternum for many years is getting stale but worst of all it is now an addiction. It is now your belief. Now you have an opportunity to latch on the a prefered belief or addiction and I don´t mean drugs. Only you can learn your lessons and make it all work the way which is best for you and everyone else, toward love. All the best!

130. Ron aka Renald - November 17, 2014

Edit on 129 – ¨ Now you have an opportunity to latch on to a preferred belief or addiction and I don´t mean drugs.

131. nevasayneva - November 18, 2014

Another powerful person with dodgy ethics:

quote from the article:
“For Cosby to commit these assaults against multiple victims over several years, there had to be a network of willfully blind wallflowers at best, or people willing to aid him in committing these sexual crimes at worst.”

132. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 20, 2014

Going back a page I found something worth adding to:

@Sally- ” 38. sallymcnally – August 4, 2014

In answer to your question about clairvoyance, telepathy, or any other psychic ability, I have a lot of experience in speaking to people with these abilities.

I have observed the two are mostly independent of each other. I have also observed people who spend a lot of time in self-reflection, or self-observation strengthen these abilities, but typically call themselves intuitive and not psychic. Anyone can strengthen those abilities with self-reflection and self-observation if they choose.

This is not to say that someone could have both the abilities and the self-consciousness, however in my experience the ‘gifts’ are usually given to these people not to use them to gain power over someone, but to learn how to use them to help others. Many times the gifts are abused, but not always. It’s really important to remember though, in my opinion, that psychic abilities and self-awareness can be completely separate from each other and it is one of the tools gurus use to trick people, if they are good at it.”

These abilities are not gifts. They are worked for and require a lot of practice. Most of all they require the elimination of ego, unverified beliefs and fears. Then the only factor required is intent. I wish to add healing as another such ability because it is one which is more easily verified. Once these have been developed and verified they are infrequently used because they become kind of meaningless.
You could call these types of manifestations evidence or proof that consciousness is all there is other than the data on a basic or foundational level. They take on a kind of meddling with the game feeling.
One reason they can look like gifts is that there are some more advanced or well developed units of consciousness who when they reincarnate retain these skills for a planned or intended action.
These skills can be used for either the love or the fear end of the stick but the fear end runs out of energy and is not very powerful comparitively speaking. They require a fear base which is usually part of a culture much the same as a religion might teaching that if something is not done correctly the person’s soul or spirit would be sent to the moon. Free will is always a factor and we tend to flip flop our way through life in an evolutionary journey of love versus fear and the resulting entropy. We never get it done and from one point of view we can never get it wrong since contrast is a type of gift, an arrow pointing to the better and more profitable course.


133. Robert Stolzle - November 20, 2014

Re. Renald, #132 on Sally-

This helps who, how? Sallymcnally’s world might contain all the “psychic” abilities and magic she lists, but for ME these “abilities” are unverifiable and therefore imaginary.

There are all manner of natural forces beyond our control—it rains on parades all the time despite all the wishes and prayers to the contrary— and we can certainly improve our lot in general by learning how to control our inner life to some degree. Losing ones temper with the “boss” is rarely beneficial and usually leads to substandard living conditions and similar poor results.

However, after 4 years in the FoF, it seems to me a grievous blunder to conflate the two “realms” and in effect try to control the physical world with our thoughts. I like “magic” as well as anyone and look for it all the time; each “coincidence” is a unique event, but I have yet to be able to move a snow flake with my mind no matter what “state’ it is in. Sometimes things work out to be in my best interest and often they do not. Of course, the result is always partly influenced by me and my position in the play.

This understanding does not, however, in any way verify “faith healers” and their con artist cohorts. Gullibility is one of the “inner life” things that we can work to improve on….and by that I mean diminish…..and thereby improve our future well being. People need and use all manner of props to get through the day but there is no difference (except price) between planning your day based on the newspaper’s astrology column or RB’s advice.

This entire blog is filled with postings from people who tried to acquire some “esoteric” knowledge and Fourth Way “understanding” and got abused by a psycho con artist for their efforts. There are certainly many things about ourselves and the world that we don’t understand, but I’d bet that most of the people posting here aren’t looking to learn about them from the next charismatic guru who is gutsy enough to claim superiority and smart enough to make the bluff work.

“Once burned, twice shy, baby.”

Bob Stolzle

134. WhaleRider - November 20, 2014

“enlightenment”…a European intellectual movement of the late 17th and 18th centuries emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition. It was heavily influenced by 17th-century philosophers such as Descartes, Locke, and Newton, and its prominent exponents include Kant, Goethe, Voltaire, Rousseau, and Adam Smith.

At what point did the meaning of “enlightenment” regress back to a state of awareness that includes superstition, such as in the FOF?$

135. Parson Yorick - November 20, 2014

I’ll have to check my OED. I don’t recall the FoF ever using the word, but it has been many years.

136. WhaleRider - November 20, 2014

I think you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone in the cult who would consider burton to be awake, yet unenlightened, unless one makes the distinction between intellectual enlightenment and spiritual enlightenment as polar opposites, which I don’t believe they are.

Wouldn’t Voltaire and Goethe, both men of science and reason, be appalled at the intellectual drivel that spews from burton’s mouth, and that his followers ingest?

I know I am.

Does being more awake give one the ability to read tea leaves and predict what won’t happen in the future?

137. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 20, 2014

So Bob you have beliefs that you have not verified, obviously.
If experiences within the non-physical were not verifiable why would I even mention them, especially here of all places?
I addressed by post to Sally or did I screw up there too?
The American military establishment sees fit to pay people to do what is called viewing at a distance. The viewers are given coordinates and are asked to describe what they see? there. Those jobs would not last long if they were not productive.
I did my experiments at Renaissance using what I learned from the Abraham-Hicks materials. I had no failures from the very first one onward. Now I am not a scientist so my methods were not double and triple blinded but they were plenty good enough to convince me.
I then spent three years helping my friends broaden their spectrums and then left.
For the last seven years or so I have done healings and yes most of the time I charged a nominal fee to help me cover the cost of equipment which I invested in. Again the results satisfy me and obviously mosty of my clients. That is verifiable. When a tumour disappears of course close-minded skeptics can always say that it is mere coincidence or pretty well anything else.
What made my experiments at Renaissance most interesting to me is that I only chose subjects who were at the time negative. Yup they did existed there too. I figured that if they were positive and their situations changed they might be simply creating their own realities. By choosing negative ones it pretty well assured me that I was playing an important role in the results.
And as for whalerider, well my mom used to read tea leaves for her friends and relatives and came up with stuff she could not have known via the normal routes. She wanted to start up a business but the Catholic Church stopped that before it could get going. Fear goes a long way, just not in the right direction. Once again common sense not being very common. If it works it works. What labels we attach to them matters not one hoot as far as I am concerned.
Once the role of consciousness (remove ego, fear and unverified beliefs and what is left is a conscious state where ” intention” rules),
is experienced and understood these experiences pretty well are no longer useful and mostly are not given the time of day. Denial almost becomes laughable.
Even our eleven year old daughter knows that everything is possible.
Is she gullible? No way!

138. Mick - November 21, 2014

That’s amazing! A non-gullible 11-year old who believes in her father!?

139. brucelevy - November 21, 2014

Ron, did you exhaust your audience over on GF? You were unbearably didactic and narcissitic there, have you come here to lay down your wisdon thinking the people here were going to lap it up? I know you are in love with the sound of your own thoughts, but give us a fucking break.

140. Mick - November 21, 2014

Fee Schedule
Individual Spiritual Advice 1 $hekel
Complete Sermons 2 $hekels/per attendee
Multiplying loaves & fishes 3 $hekels/per meal
Water to Wine 7 $hekels/per jar
Healing the Lame 15 $hekels
Sight for the Blind 25 $hekels
Raising the Dead 50 $hekels
Walking on Water Free for Believers
-Available for Parties-

141. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 21, 2014

Mick, another unverified belief or had you not noticed.
The only thing I taught our daughter is what I learned from Art Linkletter.
Bruce, nice to see you are still around and unchanged and here I thought change was a constant. Big hug !
Oh and that advice about ignoring those who drop by to visit from outside the club without joining the club seems to have putrified.
Is that didactic? lol
Next installment, please. This is damn near as much fun as bingo, not quite but damned near.
Now where was I? Oh yes, self remembering. Which ” I ” thinks this is fun?

142. Robert Stolzle - November 21, 2014


Mick, I’d like to book J.C. for the Raising of the Dead event for 50 shekels. Please have him show up at my funeral/burial event. The other side may be glorious, but I think I’d like one more ride on the merry-go-round, here. Anyway, there’s no rush, I think I’ve got a couple more circles to go.

Ron, I don’t give the military much credit for anything except spending money like drunken sailors. A few million to look into psychic abilities is like me deciding to have a cookie. I’ve never heard of the Abraham-Hicks materials and, at the risk of Bruce Levy going ballistic, I’d be interested to know more about that and your FoF experiments. I would be particularly interested in RB’s response to your results and if whatever we are talking about is still being being used. Also, how did your friends benefit from having their spectrums broadened?

Your 11 year old daughter should believe that “all things are possible”. The real world will intrude soon enough. I hope it doesn’t break her when it does.

Bob Stolzle

143. brucelevy - November 21, 2014
144. Parson Yorick - November 21, 2014

“The Men Who Stare at Goats” by Jon Ronson. Entertaining if nothing more. Also, “The Psychopath Test” by the same author.

145. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 21, 2014

Robert, Why are you afraid of Bruce Levy going ballistic if you are not afraid of the military establishment and their all-seeing eyes? Not that they would give you any more attention than you give them but you never know nowadays what paranoid groups might stoop to to appease their fear projectors.
My friends? The ones I was refering to all left within a relatively short time once they came to their own conclusions just like any self-respecting friend would do. Some of them stayed for various reasons and I respect their choices.
If I thought you were serious about experiments I would not hesitate to offer any help that might be useful. It actually is very easy if the intention is positive. There are thousands of youtube videos online which is where I do most of my studying. As well many useful books are available there free of charge. So the shekels do not enter into this. A open mind though is essential.
As far as what Robert Earl Burton thinks about the Abraham-Hicks material, how would I know? Further I could care less, maybe even less than what the Ballistic Man thinks. To each their own and eventually all roads lead to Rome anyways. Even ignorance and what we call evil has its place in this scheme. That does not mean that we all have to aspire to it.
We each one of us have to do our own homework if we want to learn and grow. We don’t have to and that is a necessary ingredient in this pudding. If you like it, enjoy. If not, try another recipe. Bitching day in and day out has low percentage return on investments. I oughta know.

146. shardofoblivion - November 22, 2014

in #132 Ron Brisson aka Renald says “You could call these types of manifestations evidence or proof that consciousness is all there is other than the data on a basic or foundational level”
Another view is possible. That what came first was the material universe, and within that, life evolved by Darwinian evolution, and at a certain point the brain of some early animal created a world for that creature. A monumental event for life on earth. What is happening in the brain is similar to the virtual reality setups that pilots use to learn to fly – only there is no pilot. The machinery that produces the virtual reality for us is transparent to us, we are all born naive realists, but the fact that we dream at night is a huge clue as to what is really going on. Our brain creates a simulation of the world (we hope accurate), and evolution will have rewarded an accurate picture, else we would have been liable to get eaten. Psychic powers are in fact quite hard to verify, as many who have tried to claim Randi’s million dollars challenge have found. The more likely explanation is coincidence.


147. brucelevy - November 22, 2014

“Robert, Why are you afraid of Bruce Levy going ballistic ”

What on earth makes you think Robert is afraid of me, or even takes anything I say as directed towards him? Or that I have any animosity towards him in any way. Or that we know each other in some way? Can you cite some proof by any of the postings here? Or is this just something else you pulled out of your ass like most of what you espouse so feely and magnanimously?

148. yesri - November 22, 2014


149. shardofoblivion - November 22, 2014
150. Ron aka Renald - November 22, 2014

re. 146. shardofoblivion – I agree with your description of reality although it is pretty difficult to verify exactly what existed in the beginning. Any time one puts together a theory of everything there are always assumptions. What makes up a most probable theory of everything (TOE) is the number of assumptions required and the fact that the theory explains or answers all of the questions. I am not about to go into details since the last book I read on this subject required over 800 pages to put in simple language. Only two assumptions were required which is far better than anything else ever put together. Still as you know books don´t teach.
One needs to first of all see how the theory fits with past experiences. Then the experimental and verificational process can begin. Statistical evidence is gathered and then conclusions are rendered.
As far as the Randis of the world are concerned as regards the subjective or soft sciences they will always be able to claim some form of coincidence. Why? Because first off chance does play a role. From the little picture point of view it is a big deal if I get run over by a drunk driver while having a cup of tea on the patio or get hit by lightening while typing this post. It is a necessary part of the system. From the point of view of the Big Picture it is no more meaningful than my typing a spelling error, deleting it and retyping the correct symbols. Ok maybe that is an .exageration but still you get the idea.
I found a quote in my Sudoku book today and don´t have a clue where i got it from. I am moved to include it here: ¨Never be afraid or ashamed of being stupid, only of remaining that way when you have the opportunity to change.¨

Finally there are excellent videos on youtube on this subject, maybe too many. None are complete but may still be useful.
Tom Campbell in Calgary is said to be a good one(series) and is a weekend conference. His book ¨My Big TOE¨ is available free on googlebooks. Depending on your brain type (predominantly left or right brained) it may be plenty to simply study the Abraham-Hicks materials also available on youtube. In my case since I had been using that info (non-scientific approach) since early 1998 I found the book dry and repetitive but still manageable over time. There were plenty of new ideas to be found and connections to be made which made it all worthwhile but I did not have as many obstacles to understanding that others may have. I hope this helps.

151. Ron aka Renald - November 22, 2014

@Bruce, 143 – I got that impression by the quote in 142, not too long ago, which read, ¨ I’ve never heard of the Abraham-Hicks materials and, at the risk of Bruce Levy going ballistic, I’d be interested to know more about that and your FoF experiments.¨
As far as my understanding goes risk is associated with fear. Often it is fear of uncertainty or rejection which can be programmed from childhood and is often fed by the educational system especially in the distant past.
I am sorry if what I said hurt your feelings. Don´t let what i say affect you in any way, shape or form. You have a choice as to what to do with it. Take care, Bud.

152. Ron aka Renald - November 22, 2014

@148 , shardofoblivion, it might be a good idea to do your own research. There might sometimes be two sides to a story or bit of info. That way you can decide on your own whether it is useful to you or not.

153. leaf - November 22, 2014

139. brucelevy

“Unbearably didactic and narcissistic” describes it perfectly.

That’s one way to describe the FoF, too, and all of its weird shenanigans. Some of the trolls who post here bring that same vibe.

154. shardofoblivion - November 22, 2014

#150 Ron aka Renald says

“As far as the Randis of the world are concerned as regards the subjective or soft sciences they will always be able to claim some form of coincidence.”

That seems a bit thin. If there were a genuine effect, it would not be dismissable as coincidence, but so far no one has managed to produce anything, and the $1,000,000 remain unclaimed. If by means of your “intent” and belief that fundamentally consciousness and the data are all that exists, you manage to produce an paranormal effect that convinces Randi, I would be most impressed.

155. brucelevy - November 22, 2014

“I am sorry if what I said hurt your feelings. Don´t let what i say affect you in any way, shape or form.”

Two incorrect assumptions in a row.

156. WhaleRider - November 22, 2014

“Abraham has told us through Esther that whenever we feel moments of great love, exhilaration, pure joy, stoned-out bliss, even the energy of sexual orgasm when we feel that Energy Flow rushing through our bodies, that is the energy of Source, and that is who Abraham “is”.”

And how do we know this is true?

Because Abraham said so…through Ester, that is, or through Jerry, the “practical” one. It’s not us. We are just the messengers. The Hicks.

Can’t you feel its truthiness?

Now go out and verifabricate it for yourself! It’s easy. It’s simple. Like us, the Hicks. We are not rocket scientists. We are just simple folks.

We get it, and others like us get it, why don’t you?

Obviously, if you don’t get it, we’re sorry, it’s not us; there must be something wrong with you.

All those other feelings you have? Like fear, sadness, grief, loneliness, shame, anxiety, jealousy and anger? Those are not Abraham our altar ego. The source of those bad feelings…is you.

Your ego. What you call, “I”, “me”. You are nothing. You do not exist. Only Abraham exists.

Abraham said so.

Your ego is the problem, not ours. It’s your personality that needs to change! Get with the program!

We, the Hicks, and those like us, have arrived at the ultimate Source…the one end all and be all…the möbius, the endless knot…and we’re waiting for you, in a different place, in our world, over here…while you are over there, in your world. Come join us! We love you!

If you are feeling anything right now other than intense joy, extreme happiness, stoned-out bliss and narcissistic elation, we’re sorry, you are not Abraham, you are not connected…like we are, all the time, except when we’re not.

If you don’t agree with us, well, just take your bad feelings, and your little ego, and all your pain and suffering to which you are obviously addicted and go away.

We can’t help you, Abraham can’t help you until you destroy your ego.

Abraham said so.

You must completely annihilate your ego, punch it, stomp on it, shoot it, and burn it until it disappears, until it is completely 100% gone. Dead.

Ego is bad. Ego is not real. We are good, Abraham is good. Abraham is real. Abraham said so…through Ester, through Jerry.

Can’t you feel it?

We are just the messengers.

The Hicks.

Will you join us?

157. nigel harris price - November 22, 2014

Pardon my ‘coming-back-from-a-long-time-away’, but something has not changed on this blog…..

The IN-ism or OUT-ism beliefs from those still in the Fellowship or those long-time departed from it. Remember, there were beautiful, nourishing things to be derived from membership (for instance, without the FOF, I would not have encountered the works of Whitman or Rilke – I recommend his “Falling Stars” at this present time).

Could you believe that someone like me who has endured ‘tens’ of Mental Health Sections – 8 of them in the last 18 months, bears not the slightest wish to take revenge? – in fact I think it was Nelson Mandela who said that “Taking revenge is like drinking poison and hoping it will kill one’s enemies.”

Now I am making plans to move home to South Wales to get involved with DisabilityArtsCymru and Head4Arts and hopefully having enough time to lend my time to a Research Document about the arts and the their affiliation with bio-medicine through the Wellcome Trust.

I told my schizophrenic neighbour this…..

The androids have not left the river bank for there is no need for them. We, who have dived into the river, must make a choice…..

Do we drift downstream to the ‘wild and wasteful ocean’……or is ours the Entirely Desperate struggle upstream to The Source?


158. WhaleRider - November 22, 2014

There is no chioice, Nigel.

The Source is the destination and the destination is the Source.

You are not the source of anything…Abraham “is”.

You are nothing.

The source of your pain and suffering is you!

Abraham is the source of everything else, everything good…through Ester, through Jerry, the Hicksters.

Don’t you get it?

Go tell your friend, Abraham said so.

Oh BTW, as you probably can tell, Abraham, the great and powerful Wizard of Oz, is feeling a bit shy these days way out yonder and likes to use people as intermediaries, like Ester and Jerry, normal people, who love you more than your mommy and daddy ever did, even though they don’t know you.

Abraham just wants to rock your soul in his bosom, that’s all. Just for a little while. You know, just a little snuggle. What’s the harm in that?

C’mon Nigel, don’t you see? You are just addicted to your mental illness. Abraham said so. Just stop it! Don’t do it any more! Just walk away from your mental illness. It’s just an ego indulgence! Just say, no thank you, I can do without it.

You are fine!

Abraham said so!

Feeling better?

That’s Abraham!

159. ton2u - November 22, 2014

154 Bruce
“smartest person in the room” is only fooling himself

160. Ron aka Renald - November 22, 2014

Making up lies to back one´s beliefs is typical.
Believing these lies made up made up by somebody else is lamentable. It is just a very bad bet. Continuing to habitually make bad bets is a disease or illness and a sad one at that. This is simply one of the down sides of the internet. Still part of our work always comes down to verifying the sources of the information as found there. Then it is usually not that difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, undertand the details and run experiments. If it works it works and nobody can take that away from you.
Mockery seen in a mirror or not is still negative and a sign of laziness and eventually high entropy. Examples are easy to find, obviously and that is great.

161. ton2u - November 22, 2014

159 Renald

“Still part of our work always…” etc.

shhh… listen, the “royal we” is here again to speak for “us.”


162. Ron aka Renald - November 22, 2014

@160-ton2u-Entertaining article.
IF what you are telling me (us-humanity) is that you resent anyone expressing an opinion (discussing) that every individual including you has a necessity to work toward learning, toward growth, toward becoming productive for evolution and toward love, relax. I did not mean that this was necessary right here right now. What I mean is that I am of the opinion that eventually this must be done and that includes many lifetimes. I (hee-hee, I love it) am of the opinion that this is simply part of the game. the definition of
Is it narcissistic to want to be more loving and to have more empathy? I suppose that depends on your and my definition of narcissism.
Since I am already over my daily limit I might point out what the writer said about wanting to lay blame on someone else for our failings and mistakes in the past. So what if someone else was also involved? So what if for some reason free will temporarily lost its power?
(or is there some doubt lingering re. that subject?) So what if the guy was narcissistic? Is that a good reason to sacrifice personal health?
Maybe so but, (again my opinion), what if we return with our old suitcases in this or another world in a kind of karmic situation?
Life is supposed to be fun, mostly.

163. ton2u - November 23, 2014

Relax? I am relaxed… though I have doubts about you.
this might help… probably not:

164. yesri - November 23, 2014

I’m so good at doin nuthin they gave me an entrophy.

(and by i i mean me)

165. brucelevy - November 23, 2014

That illustrates why there’s no treatment for clinical narcissism.

166. shardofoblivion - November 23, 2014

I notice Ron aka Renald asks the blog a question in #137 to wit:”If experiences within the non-physical were not verifiable why would I even mention them, especially here of all places?” Well because you think you have verified them of course, but that doesn’t guarantee you aren’t deluding yourself does it?

167. brucelevy - November 23, 2014
168. ton2u - November 23, 2014

169. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 23, 2014

@165 – shardofoblivion,- good point. That is why it requires plenty nof experimenting and statistical evidence, in other words a skeptical mind to go along with the open mind.
I have repeated over and over that this is a personal issue.
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, never have and never will, especially not our daughter. That would be doing a disservice.
I am simply pointing out that when I was having emotional difficulties, and still encounter them from time to time, it is good to change course. Any time I come on this blog for whatever reason, I encounter powerful negativity and that is fine with me. It acts as a reminder of what I do not want to be or do and yes these are useful.
There are no doubt some silent viewers who could receive some benefit. They simply have doubts and say nothing because they still need to verify one way or the other. Free will means freely choosing whether or not they want to pay any attention to whatever someone else says. When a huge resistance wells up, well there must be a reason. If it feels negative the root will always be buried in some fear.
Those are very hard to see since most have been there so long and survival was still possible. Survival is pretty important. So is propagation. Growth in the quality of consciousness is a more long term goal, actually one which is never reached, thank goodness since change is a constant.
Hasta tomorrow !

170. shardofoblivion - November 24, 2014

There’s something about this guy that brings Ron, aka Renald to mind somehow:

171. brucelevy - November 24, 2014

170. shardofoblivion

What’s that, you’re remote viewing data?

172. Robert Stolzle - November 24, 2014

Busy weekend people!

I just felt the urge to make a couple of pokes and prods…..

FYI I don’t “know” anyone posting here in any personal way (’74-’77 predates many). My relationship is only through the postings and am firmly of the opinion that “…….words will never hurt me.”…… at least not in this context. Although, I confess to sometimes getting more emotionally tweeked than I think necessary. In this regard, my “likes and dislikes” of people depends entirely on their postings and the “personalities” on display; our only connection here is our experience of the FoF and this is obviously quite varied.

I “got out” before most of the damaging craziness started…..or maybe I just wasn’t dividing my attention properly. Anyway, Nigel, it is pretty obvious from much of the posting here that a lot of people have been hurt by RB’s behavior and the ultimate benefit or detriment of our Fourth Way practices are always a valid topic. We all “see through a glass darkly” and for better or worse, my 4 years in the FoF still influence my interactions with the world. This said, I see no reason to believe there is any real benefit to anyone (except RB and his harem) for the FoF and RB to continue to prosper. The world is full of false prophets but, “Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.”

So far as I can say, I like BruceLevy and the comment in #142 was intended to be humorous but, is everyone writing here dead serious, AKA Ron Brisson? I am pretty certain that we wouldn’t “know” what was good for us if it hit us between the eyes…..use your best judgement, don’t intentionally hurt anyone, and hope for the best is as close as I can get to “self determination”. Personally, I now believe that devoting one’s existence to the pursuit of various esoteric practices is a fool’s quest and not much different from the pursuit of wealth. About the only practice that seems beneficial to me is attempting unidentified observation and hoping to find God.

Bob Stolzle

173. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 24, 2014

Bob Stozle, even if the only benefit coming from behaviour of anyone is in the becoming clear on what I do not want, that is still a great benefit. It is none of my personal business if fifty out of the hundred who line up for a blow job on Valentine’s Day don’t want to be there.
We have free will and that means nobody can impose their power over us if we don’t wish them to. Now if someone was holding a gun to my head I might argue that point. These people who whine for forty years about how unfair life was for them and demand revenge are just as sick as the perps, in my opinion. To turn around all those years later and say ” Oh, that was only my attempt at humour” is weak at best. I say collect all the information possible and update it from time to time, make a personal decision and then let it go. It is what it is. Do I take my comments seriously, meaning is my intent positive? Yes, I sure hope so.

174. shardofoblivion - November 24, 2014

#173 Ron uses a variant of the “It takes two to Tango” excuse for the sexual abuse Burton imposes on his faithful followers. And in the case of the unwilling participants he says ” It is none of my personal business if fifty out of the hundred who line up for a blow job on Valentine’s Day don’t want to be there.”

“What’s that, a lack of empathy?”

But it seems to me that membership of a cult reduces our ability to choose, similarly to hypnosis or drug addiction, and it is beholden on someone in that position of power to act carefully to not take advantage, something Burton singularly fails to do. Mentioning that on this blog is a useful service to potential future victims.

175. paul gregory - November 24, 2014

173. Ron Brisson, aka Renald – November 24, 2014

You speak without the slightest real awareness of human psychology. Yet you offer the benefit of your wisdom. Which is to get over it, as you have. So get over your getting over it position, and go. Because you lost, in a positive way. Good luck with your beliefs.

176. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 24, 2014

Another good point, shardofoblivion, however I don’t recall saying that ” It takes two to tango” is an excuse. I have often done things they I really did not want to do but that did not make me ” unwilling “.
It might have made me gullible, stupid, free from or not free from guilt or shame, and many other descriptions, but not willing or unwilling.
The blame game is a loser’s game, whether it is placed on someone else or not. That smells like the old program and implies that if someone else suffers for those actions (or lack of) that it will fix everything inside. I does not because the assumption is faulty.
I have mentioned a couple tools which are useful to repair such faulty thinking and today I will float another out there. Once again it is a youtube. It is a videotaped radio interview and may be appreciated by some.


All the best!

177. ton2u - November 24, 2014

Renald aka etc show up here periodically in the guise of “savior” with hollow platitudes, cliché “advice” from the self help section…. I think underneath it all he doesn’t really expect to “save” anyone – he’s really here for attention- yet another narcissistic attention whore. Narcissism and a “Messiah complex” are two ends of the same stick in this case.

178. shardofoblivion - November 24, 2014

#176 O dear, that law of attraction radio station is dire! in the spirit of meeting the other guy half way I tried listening to the program you recommended. It was a full 7 minutes before we even got to meet Dr Joe D, there were minutes and minutes of earnest voiced trails to other Law of Attraction radio shows. Then finally we get to hear from the doctor, and he says things like “It requires what we call in Neuroscience pruning synaptic connections – just like you would prune a fruit tree”
yeah I’m sure it’s just the same Dr Joe, I’ll just go fish out my neuro-secateurs, and rectify some bad attitudes that are keeping me from total bliss.

179. WhaleRider - November 25, 2014

IMO, the “law of attraction” functions at best as a placebo effect for some people, rather than some intrinsic law of the universe that we have somehow only recently discovered.

Afterall, if we were all able to manifest 100% of what we desire, then most everyone would be billionaires and blonde!

But it is not the case that people don’t get what they want solely due to lack of desire, imagination or will. There are other factors that lie outside of one’s control, like for instance, the law of gravity.

No matter how much I want to fly, I can only do so in my dreams. And no matter how much I dream about flying, I am still physically unable to do so as I am.

There is no question that the placebo effect can work wonders, and, in my experience, a successful outcome is mostly dependent upon a person’s belief system, not their gullibility, and secondly, the manner in which the placebo is administered.

If your doctor tells you the sugar pill is real and you believe him or her, that is not a reflection of your gullibility, but a statement of the faith you invest in another whom you consider an authority, including faith in Science…or a guru, or the occult, as the case may be.

In terms of the healing process, if the cause of an illness or malady is psychosomatic, then in fact the placebo effect can work quite well in certain circumstances and with some people, regardless of their IQ or or education.

This is why placebos are still an integral part of doing a study on a new drug.

Now, if the placebo doesn’t work, the unethical or uneducated practitioner will place the blame on the person for failing to believe enough in the placebo due to their “loser mindset” or other lack of faith, rather than assume
responsibility for errors they made in either administering the placebo to the recipient or in assessing if the placebo is appropriate. This is often the case when such a practitioner is invested in and relies solely upon the same placebo for everyone, like in faith healing.

Placebo doesn’t work all the time for everyone, and neither does the “law of attraction”. But both can work some of the time for some people in what seem like magical ways, in my experience.

If I was a person who was invested in “the law of attraction” and it stop working as it inevitably would in time, I might be driven to listen to Law of Attraction Radio for a dose of faith, too. And since it’s recorded, the message never changes.

In fact, watching media is quite hypnotic, no matter what a person is watching.

180. brucelevy - November 25, 2014

177. ton2u


181. brucelevy - November 25, 2014

Assholes are going to be assholes. There’s no cure.

182. Robert Stolzle - November 25, 2014


I fully embrace accepting personal responsibility for one’s decisions and agree that transferring blame is not the best way to deal with the undesirable results of of those decisions. Unfortunately, most of life is rarely so black and white that a valid judgment, especially by an outside observer, is possible; i.e, “judge not lest ye be judged”.

People exhibit a wide range of ability to deal with trauma and my pleasure can easily be someone’s pain. I’m sure RB’s homosexual demands may be a lot of fun for some, but the 90% of heterosexuals, after years of sacrifice seeking enlightenment from the exalted leader, are going to be conflicted when told giving him a blow job is the way to become Man #5……without so much as a kiss! That wasn’t anywhere in the fine print when we signed on with the cult along with a lot of other FoF B.S. that is only justified by RB to keep the charade rolling along.

I don’t think there is much dispute that cults exist and that some degree of “mind control” can be inflicted on most, if not all, people. So far as I can tell the FoF fits the definition of a cult very well. Did your stint in the FoF deliver everything you expected when you joined? And, why did you leave? Doesn’t my personal responsibility end when I’ve been lied to or am I still responsible for my gullibility. Within any system of law the perpetrator is not absolved of guilt by blaming the victim. It is “jabberwocky” to argue otherwise.

Bob Stolzle

183. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 25, 2014

Now this is discussion ! Well, mostly, anyways. This cold be a long one. Where to start?
@179 – Whalerider. Before looking at the placebo efffect it is essential to look at just what is the law of attraction consists of,, specifically as concerns the Abraham material.
The theory says that we create our reality using a three step process.
First we ask. That process is mostly achieved from the back door.
If I am cold I want warmth. If I am hungry and broke I want food and probably money. If I am lonely I want a relationship. That is all. The asking has been done. I like to call this my intent because the word ask tends to have connotations that are heavily laden with wrong ideas. Intent is purer and more specific. It does not have so much space for negative triggers. ie. focusing on how cold it is or how lousy it feels to not have whatever is wanted, which can easily be the primary subject.
Secondly the components are assembled by other. This can happen quickly, no instantaneously, because on that scale time exists in a more condensed form. As a matter of fact we as humans are so predictable that the assembly can even be done before the asking but that is another story. Nothing for us to do here.
Thirdly since we are free willed beings we need to allow the manifestation. You may have heard the expression ” Only you stand in your own way.” When the intent is pure it is like giving the correct IP address when ordering a new program online. The subject must match the recipient. That is the key and is not so easy usually. Actually it is very easy just like opening the door to the delivery person but when we have been trained to triple lock those doors, well you get the idea.
Lots of metaphors, I know but I cannot help it. Everything I have said here and everything anyone else has said here are only metaphors.
The law of attraction material is metaphor.
At least now you can have a clue as to why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. You also should be clearer as to why anything pushed against can only get bigger or worse.

Placebos and beliefs. Another book possibility. Obviously someone looking for relief or cure will usually have a positive intent or else why go see a doctor or pharmaceutical? If there was not or had not been any negative influence to go with that intent there would usually not have been an illness or disease and yes you can throw in accident.
So both subjects are created on a non-physical(?) scale. Most often they will cancel each other out as far as the present is concerned.
I would bet that some doctors have way more success with placebos than others. Why? Because they have clear and powerful positive intent. Been there, seen that. Of course the opposite is also true so the stats are impressive. But what happens next? There is a state of relief for the patient. That feels great. That also gives an opportunity to change or transform bad thinking or focusing habits. Very often that opportunity is wasted and it becomes same old same old or different similar. Some get such a positive emotional charge that the cure endures. I will refrain from using terms like “energy” but it could serve as a useful metaphor (tool).
It takes a fair bit of study to really get the gist of this material and anyone who thinks they can judge it without experimenting with it with a open mind is caught in a belief trap. After all it only takes a few minutes to run an experiment and costs nothing. What is there to be afraid of, uncertainty? self-esteem? image? Naa, nobody needs to know what is going on but self.

Bruce, ” Hope in man’s heart eternally springs”, or something like that.

@178 – shardofoblivion, I agree the intro to the video sucked but sometimes there is a price of admission. I am used to making time and effort investments looking for that jewel. I get your point though that a lousy intro certainly does not help set the stage for the main act.

@182 – Robert Stozle, Yep life is not always black and white. There are plenty of gray areas. Further what was white yesterday may easily become black tomorrow. If it wasn’t that way the universe would cease to exist. Time could not exist. Like I read earlier somewhere without assholes we would all be full of it, lol.
Did the Fof deliver? Did I learn anything? Did I enjoy my time there?
Yes to all. Am I happy with my decision to leave? Yes. Am I learning anything worthwhile? Yes. Am I more loving? Yes. Have I expanded? Yes. Do I have more abundance? Yes.
Did I get slapped while in the Fof? Yes, mostly at the beginning.
My first weekend there I was invited to a party where a student wanted to start a fight because I had talked to his girlfriend.
My first harvest volunteer effort I felt abused after swamping for a whole day and my request for a little time picking grapes was refused.
Then while hoeing in the vegetable garden I followed another student and cleaned up after him like I was taught previously. The other student got very negative with me and said, ” What do you think I am doing here? Playing with my dick?”
Did those sink my ship? No but I did take on water because of my beliefs and expectations. I survived though.

Why did I leave? I was inspired to start a new adventure.
Do I miss my friends? Yes. Do I have new friends? Yes.
Are relationships important? Very important, maybe the most important reason for being on the planet. Why? Because of the learning potential. Because of the data or information processed.
Because of the potential to see my ego, fears and beliefs and trade them in for unconditional love.

Still all of that has nothing to do with anyone else but me in the sense that we are all different and that is perfect. That doesn’t mean I have to pitch my tent in the wetlands. After all ducks are plenty happy with them.

@all, Here is another interview video. Some of it is obscure because it implies previous exposure to this scientist’s lifework trilogy called “The Big TOE.” (Theory Of Everything) – Tom Campbell, however there are sufficient golden nuggets clearly visible in that stream.


184. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 25, 2014

Sorry, I jumped the gun on that send button.
Actually the link I had saved was the wrong one, it was not in English, lol. So instead I was easily able to find one of the better videos which summarizes the book which is actually called ” My Big TOE” and not “The Big Toe”. and given as a weekend lecture with Q and A’s in the third segment. This is the first segment link. The other two are easy to find.


185. Barbara - November 26, 2014

yes Ron i
150 words fuker!

(wow, giving myself liberties here)

186. brucelevy - November 26, 2014

185. Barbara

Yup. Some people just love to watch themselves speak. Usually clinical narcissists.

187. Barbara - November 26, 2014

omg… not fair

188. Mick - November 26, 2014

Fukers never respond well to suggestions that they be less egoistic.

189. Barbara - November 26, 2014

a long post recently read…

anyways, whatever:

(here it is)

Red Heylin‎Osho

Q – Osho – Many contemporaries and enlightened ones – Raman Maharshi, Meher Baba, George Gurdjieff and J. Krishnamurti – have worked with people, but people get more offended by you than by anybody else. Osho, where does your technique differ from that of other enlightened ones?

//The question is very fundamental. It arises in many people’s minds, and it needs a very deep insight into the workings of different masters. We will take each of the masters named in the question separately.

RAMAN MAHARSHI is a mystic of the highest quality, but a master of the lowest quality. And you have to understand that to be a mystic is one thing; to be a master is totally different. Out of a thousand mystics, perhaps one is a master. Nine hundred and ninety–nine decide to remain silent – seeing the difficulty, that whatever they have realized is impossible to convey in any possible way to others; seeing that not only is it difficult to convey, it is bound to be misunderstood too.

Naturally, one who has arrived to the ultimate peak of consciousness will most probably decide not to bother with the world anymore. He has suffered for hundreds of lives living with these miserable people, living with all kinds of misunderstandings, groping in the dark and finding nothing. And these blind people who have never seen the light all believe they know what light is.

From ancient days, a philosopher has been defined as a man who is blind, in a house that is completely dark, searching for a black cat which is not there.

And the search goes on….

After a long, long, tedious journey, someone has come to the sunlit peak of relaxation, for the first time is at ease with existence, and decides not to get involved with all kinds of blind people, prejudiced people, deaf people who are going to misunderstand you, who are going to misinterpret you, who are going to crucify you, who are going to poison you, who are going to do every nonsense that is possible against you. Why bother?

You cannot blame those nine hundred and ninety–nine mystics who decide to remain silent. It is not their responsibility, it is not their commitment. They owe nothing to the world; why should they get unnecessarily into the mess, into the madhouse the world is?

Raman Maharshi remained in his cave in the mountains of Arunachal his whole life, unconcerned with the world. He simply tired of it. Naturally, nobody is against him. He never says anything against any superstition, against any belief that is based on lies. He never criticizes any religion, any politics. He is not a revolutionary. He is not interested in transforming human beings, creating a better society. He is not even a little bit interested to share his experience. He is just like a well – if you are thirsty, you will have to find the way, you will have to find a bucket, you will have to find a rope, you will have to reach the water. The water is not interested in you or in your thirst.

Naturally there is nobody who will criticize Raman Maharshi. He lived silently, peacefully – not against any vested interest, not in any way proposing a new man, a new humanity. He is fulfilled and contented; he is finished with the world.

MEHER BABA is not finished with the world in the same sense as Raman Maharshi. But he is interested only in your spiritual growth – as if spiritual growth is something separate from the whole structure of society, religion, education, past, all the traditions, conventions.

So he remains interested in your spiritual growth, but spiritual growth is a complex phenomenon – it is connected with many other things. Unless your conditionings are changed, unless your belief systems are changed, unless your mind is unburdened of the past – there are so many things to be cleaned – only then can the still small voice of your being be heard.

Meher Baba takes spiritual growth out of context. Naturally nobody is against it. In fact, all the vested interests are tremendously respectful of such people, because they are continuously giving – without any intention on their part – opium to the people. They are giving the idea – which is false – that your spiritual growth is possible without going through a deep psychological revolution.

Secondly, Meher Baba remained silent his whole life; he never spoke. All that is written in the name of Meher Baba is written by his secretary. Now, there is no way to know whether the secretary is writing from his own mind. He had come to see me, and I looked directly into his eyes when I asked, “Are you certain that whatever you have written is not from your mind? Can you give me any evidence that these messages have been telepathically given to you by Meher Baba?”

He felt a little embarrassed and he said, “I cannot say it with absolute certainty, but this is how I felt – that these were messages given by Meher Baba.”

“But your feeling…. Have you ever tried in some way to get the consent of Meher Baba, his signature? He was not speaking, that is true, but he used to give his autograph. You could have taken your book…. He was not speaking, but he could hear. You could have asked him: `I have written this book in your name, and my feeling is that this is your message. Just give it your signature so that I can tell the world that Meher Baba agrees with me.’ This would have been a simple method.”

Meher Baba used to have a small board with the whole alphabet on it just for small messages and things. You would ask for his blessings, and he would put his finger on the letters, “b-l-e-s-s-i-n-g” – blessings are given. If he could give blessings on the board, he could have said yes or no on the same board, but he was never asked. In fact, the secretary may have been afraid he might say no.

Now, who will be against this man? – who has not spoken, who is not against anything, anybody. His whole business is to help you spiritually – and that too only in silence; you can sit with him in silence. Now, there are very few people in the world who can understand silence. A master first needs to teach you how to be silent, and unless he is satisfied that now you are capable of listening in silence, listening to that which is not being said vocally, verbally, but only telepathically….

Meher Baba had never prepared anybody for telepathic transference of ideas. And to me it seems to be absurd. What is the need? – because even in telepathy you will have to use the same language. If I want to say something to you – whether I say it aloud so that you can hear or I say it silently so that you can hear only telepathically, it makes no difference. Unless I am trying to give messages which are secret, unless there is a certain conspiracy….

But around Meher Baba, nothing has happened. The man himself was of great importance, but he remained silent for the same reason as Raman Maharshi. But he could not stay in one place. He did not abandon the world completely. He was still thinking that some way could be found to approach seekers. He moved around the world in search of seekers, but I don’t think he found any. He found only worshippers who sang devotional songs to him, because they had their desires. And in the East it is believed that if the person who is enlightened blesses you, any desire is bound to be fulfilled. Existence can never say no to the enlightened consciousness. For the enlightened man, existence is always `yes’; there is a deep synchronicity.

So the people who gathered around Meher Baba were not seekers, they were people who wanted position, power, money, prestige – all the wrong kinds of people. And because he was engaging people in wishful dreaming and not saying anything, he was not against the vested interests. Why should any government be against him? Why should any religion be against him? There was no question – these people were harmless people.

The third man on your list is GEORGE GURDJIEFF. He is the most unique master the world has ever seen, but his uniqueness created a distance between him and the normal humanity. All his methods were valid methods, but the journey was long and he made it even longer by the way he propounded it.

In fact, that was one of his devices to find the real seekers. Are you ready to go to the very end of the world, or are you just a curiosity monger? – you will go a little way to know what this man is all about, waste his time, and then you will be back in the world. He would choose only those who are ready even to die if that is the only way to find the truth.

Naturally he was surrounded by only a very small group of people. And he was also not interested in any social revolution. His whole interest was to crystallize a few individuals who were courageous enough, to give them their original face, to help them to know the ultimate ecstasy that existence makes available. But it is only for the chosen few. Not that somebody chooses them – but because only very few people are courageous enough to risk everything to find themselves, they become the chosen few by their own courage and their own daring.

And Gurdjieff was not interested at all in the fast asleep humanity. Raman Maharshi was not interested. Gurdjieff was not only not interested, he had all the condemnation possible for those who have been sleeping for lives together. He is the only man in the whole of history who said, “These sleeping people don’t have souls, and unless a man becomes enlightened he cannot have a soul. A soul is a reward: you don’t come with a soul at birth, you achieve it by your effort.”

Naturally, no government was offended, no church was offended. If a man has collected two dozen people, the pope is not worried, the shankaracharya is not worried – he is not a competitor. And he worked personally with each individual – naturally he could not work with millions of people. So these people were just in the margin; their names can appear only in the footnotes. They don’t belong to the vast humanity – just on the fringes. Having small groups, they were not a danger to anybody.

And the fourth man, J. KRISHNAMURTI, could have been a danger, could have been crucified – he had a far higher intelligence than any Jesus Christ, and far more intellectual genius than any Socrates – but because of a certain obsession, he became very much against organization. He was against all organizations. Naturally you would think that if he was against all organizations then all organizations would have been annoyed by him. But this was not the case, because he never created any organization of his own.

A single individual for ninety years continuously went around the world. Who cares? Seven hundred million Catholics are going to bother about a single individual who is talking against organizations? And who is listening to him? In India he used to speak in New Delhi, Bombay and Adyar Madras. This is not India. Nine hundred million people don’t live in these three cities. And how many people in Bombay were listening to him? – never more than three thousand. And these three thousand were almost always the same people who had been listening to him for forty years, fifty years. He was saying the same thing all through his life, and the same people were listening.

In fact, nobody was listening. He became a sort of entertainment, and that’s what he said to one of my friends who went to see him just before his death: “The thing that hurts me most is that I became just an entertainment for a few people and nothing more. A few people enjoyed my logic, and that was all.” And now that he is dead, ninety years’ effort has simply disappeared into the air.

Governments are against me because I am against them. Religions are against me because I am against religions. Political leaders are annoyed with me because I say they are mediocre, because I say only psychologically sick people become interested in power politics. People who suffer from an inferiority complex are the people who seek power, prime ministership, presidency. These people need to be in psychiatric hospitals, and they are running the world. I am against all religions because I am for religiousness, and religions are barriers to creating a humanity with a quality of religiousness. (….)

Naturally, Raman Maharshi, Meher Baba, Gurdjieff, Krishnamurti belong to a different category. I belong to my own category. There is no category to which I can belong; I have to create my category.

Naturally they are all against me because I am going to take away all their powers, all their conspiracies against humanity. Naturally, they are together against me. And they are a little puzzled: what to do with a single man? It looks awkward to them also. All the governments of the world, all the religions of the world have to decide against a single individual. Certainly that single individual must have something significant; otherwise there would be no need of so much fear, paranoia.

I am for man’s spiritual growth, but I understand spiritual growth in its whole context. It is not something separate, one dimensional; it is a multi–dimensional phenomenon. It needs a revolution in society. It needs a revolution in society’s economic, political structures; it needs a tremendous and radical change in everything that has been dominating us up to now.

We have to create a discontinuity with the past. Only then a new man – a really spiritual man, a man of cosmic dimensions – can be born.

I am certainly blessed because I am the first who is opposed by all. This situation has never happened before, and will never happen again. And you are also blessed because you are fellow travelers with a man who is not just an old dead saint, a goody–goody. I want you to be the very salt of the earth. Too many goody–goody saints have created so much diabetes. We need a different kind of saintliness. I have called that different kind of saint Zorba the Buddha.//

(Sermons in Stones, 1)

190. Barbara - November 26, 2014

got that from our friend Andrei Armeanu

191. Mick - November 26, 2014

I thought Post 191 was egotistical garbage. Butt hay, I ain’t no Blessed One.

192. Mick - November 26, 2014

That’s cool, I ended up criticizing my own post. What I meant to refer to was my impression of the Red HeylinOsho quote.

193. WhaleRider - November 26, 2014

At least now you can have a clue as to why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.”

Near as I can tell, the real reason the rich get richer and the poor get poorer is: Compounding Interest

It has nothing at all to do with desire, intent,

194. WhaleRider - November 26, 2014

@Ron Brisson aka Renald

After reading your post to me twice I am left with the distinct impression, Ron, that you have not been to college.

195. Ron aka Renald - November 27, 2014

@ 194 .Whalerider-100% right. High school dropout,however I see that as an advantage. Less brainwashing. My editing is also obviously lacking. If the main gist of what I wish to convey is faiirly discernable it is good enough. Actually I remember saying that to you mentally.
I tonight just happened to listen to a Q and A Fireside Chat which addressed a couple of your thoughts. If I can hold that intention long enough it will be included below, lol:



196. Linda Jo - November 27, 2014


               THE ANSWER TO A FOOL

   The proverb says that, ‘The answer to a fool is silence’.
Observation, however, indicates that almost any other answer will have the same effect in the long run.

Idries Shah, Reflections

. . . . . .

Excerpts from Dealing With People You Can’t Stand: How to Bring Out the Best in People at Their Worst by Dr. Rick Brinkman & Dr. Rick Kirschner

3. The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions

Once a difficult person determines that what they want is not happening, or that what they don’t want is happening, their behavior becomes more extreme and, therefore, less tolerable to others.

Threatened Intent to Get It Done

Through the distorted lens of the thwarted intent to get it done, others appear to be wasting time, going off on tangents, or just plain taking too long. The intent increases in intensity, and the subsequent behavior becomes more controlling. The three most controlling behaviors and types are the Tank, Sniper, and Know-It-All.

The Tank: On a mission, unable to slow down, pushing you around, or running right over you, the Tank has no inhibitions about ripping you apart personally. Yet the irony is … it’s nothing personal. You just happened to get in the way. In an effort to control the process and accomplish the mission, Tank behavior ranges from mild pushiness to outright aggression.

The Sniper: A strategist when things aren’t getting done to their satisfaction, the Sniper attempts to control you through embarrassment and humiliation. Most people live in fear of public embarrassment – a fact that Snipers use to their advantage, by making loaded statements and sarcastic comments at times when you are most vulnerable.

The Know-It-All: …controls people and events by dominating the conversation with lengthy, imperious arguments — and eliminates opposition by finding flaws and weaknesses to discredit other points of view. Because the Know-It-All is actually knowledgeable and competent, most people are quickly worn down by this strategy, and finally just give up.

Threatened Intent to Get Appreciated

…The intent to get appreciation intensifies in direct proportion to the lack of appreciative feedback, and behavior becomes increasingly aimed at getting attention. The three most difficult attention-getting behaviors that result from the thwarted desire to get appreciation are the Grenade, the Sniper, and the Think-They-Know-It-All.

The Grenade: They say they don’t get any appreciation and they’re not getting any respect. When the silence and lack of appreciation become deafening, look out for the Grenade: The adult temper tantrum. Kaboom!@#$* Nobody around here cares! That’s the problem with the world today. Kapow!*%^&@# I don’t know why I even bother! No one appreciates just how hard it is for me! Katung! &%$#*. Ranting and raving are difficult to ignore. But since this desperate behavior produces negative attention and disgust, the Grenade is ever more likely to blow up at the next provocation.*

The Friendly Sniper: This Sniper actually likes you, and their sniping is a “fun way” of getting attention. “I never forget a face … but in your case I will make an exception.” Many people have relationships that include playful sniping. Normally, the best defense is a good offense, because instead of offending, a return snipe is a sign of appreciation. But if the person on the receiving end [of a snipe] doesn’t give or receive appreciation in this manner, they may be laughing on the outside while bleeding from an emotional wound on the inside.

The Think-They-Know-It-All: …is a specialist in exaggeration, half truths, jargon, useless advice, and unsolicited opinions. Charismatic and enthusiastic, this desperate-for-attention person can persuade and mislead an entire group of naive people into serious difficulties. If you argue with them, Think-They-Know-It-Alls turn up the volume and dig in their heels, then refuse to back down until you look as foolish as they do.

*The difference between the Tank and the Grenade is that the Tank uses focused fire in a single direction, and the Grenade produces an out-of-control explosion in 360 degrees. The Tank takes aim with specific charges, but leaves other useful people and office equipment standing. The Grenade introduces elements that have little or nothing to do with the present circumstances. A Tank attack is a demand for action. A Grenade explosion is a demand for attention.

197. WhaleRider - November 27, 2014

@Ron Brisson aka Renald

If the physical universe is an illusion, and only consciousness is real, and the “evidence” that Tom Campbell suggests one gathers (presumably with one’s consciousness) to “verify” this belief exists in the physical universe, doesn’t that mean the evidence is an illusion, too? It seems a paradox to use illusion as a basis to verify something is real (but apparently a paradox that cult followers learn to live with.)

If I imagine something is real, like an out of body experience might seem to me, and other people can imagine the same experience, have I, (me, my identity, has what I call my Self) physically left my body in a way that can be observed or measured by others?

Granted, at death it appears the person has “left” their body, but isn’t that our projection of what we imagine happens?

It seems to me that for all Campbell’s talk about getting rid of his ego, although he appears more deadpan in his manner than flamboyant, he certainly appears to have taken his ego along with him on his Shamanic Journeys otherwise he wouldn’t be out there preaching about his views in “My” Big Toe. Is it really HIS theory? Unlike Campbell, men of science who actually have verifiable credentials, in my view usually aren’t so presumptuous.

Near as I can tell, consciousness doesn’t have a physical form that can be quantifiably measured with any known instruments like the physical universe can; therefore, using Occam’s Razor, it would follow that it is more likely that consciousness is the illusion, IMO.

If consciousness is an illusion, well, as human culture informs us, anything goes.

198. Robert Stolzle - November 27, 2014

Happy Thanksgiving–All of you-all!

The weeds here are getting thicker and I reckon that is a good thing. However, the recent postings have left me confused……again. After leaving the FoF I sniffed at other metaphysical practices for a short while, but have long since concluded that there is no real, verifiable evidence to indicate that we have any influence in any “psychic” realm— or if such a place really exists. To wit, none our efforts and prayers, incantations, talismans, magic powders or mental gymnastics have any verifiable influence on God, chance, time or the randomness of life in general. We do not and perhaps cannot understand anything about the reality (or lack thereof) regarding these issues. I think it is delusional to believe that one does understand, let alone control, this aspect of life.

This proposition is not to say that we do not influence outcomes by our behavior in the physical world or that this behavior isn’t determined by our mental processes. However, it is my firm belief that the only thing we can possibly change is ourselves and our ways of dealing with the world. We can help or harm each other with our behavior, but without real, physical action, no amount of prayer, mantras, incantations, meditation or other thought processes are going to have one whit of effect on outcomes for anyone but the “thinker”. The schizophrenics’ imaginary friends are just that and indicate a brain malfunction, not connection to some higher realm, no matter how persuasive they may be.

We do influence each other by persuasion—-were any of you NOT, to some degree, talked into joining the FoF or similarly persuaded this would be a beneficial step in your lives? But, I consider this to be a “physical” influence as compared to some imaginary operation of “C” influence or other “gods”. The magic in the world is that life exists and we are a part of it and can know this. This understanding in no way implies that anything like a “magical realm” exists just beyond our senses where omnipotent beings decide how the world is run……or that RB or Man #5 or the rest of the gurus and Scientologists play in such a realm. Buying into other’s delusions does not in any way enhance your life.

If some behavior makes you feel better and doesn’t adversely affect others, by all means do it, just don’t imagine that you’re “on the stairway to heaven” and neglect to be a real benefit to those around you.

Bob Stolzle

P.S.: Sorry if this is too long for some, but it was a holiday.

199. Ron aka Renald - November 27, 2014

@ 197 – Whalerider – Great comment and great questions.
I am fighting with myself because I know I should not answer any of them yet I want to answer one. The book is free on google books.

Tom is a scientist, He spent a lifetime studying, researching and experimenting and finally he came up with a comprehensive theory and published it. What he wrote is understandable even for a high school dropout. I read it. I am now reading it again even though most of it is from my perspective is redundant dueto my studies. I also know from experience that this kind of information tends to mysteriously expand with repetitive readings. So my intent is to learn more, to see more connections and to apply them to see if they work for me. Whenever I have done this in the past I have always been rewarded, so why deviate ?
My intent is to be more loving, to focus on other. That implies sharing my joy and appreciation . So I came here and made my recommendation. That´s it, that´s all.

All the best. Happy Holidays !

200. shardofoblivion - November 28, 2014

#198 Robert Stolze wrote these fine words

“We can help or harm each other with our behavior, but without real, physical action, no amount of prayer, mantras, incantations, meditation or other thought processes are going to have one whit of effect on outcomes for anyone but the “thinker”. The schizophrenics’ imaginary friends are just that and indicate a brain malfunction, not connection to some higher realm, no matter how persuasive they may be.”

I agree. These mystical things are seductive, but in the end they are simply not the truth of the matter.

201. WhaleRider - November 28, 2014

@Ron aka Renald
Tom is a scientist, He spent a lifetime studying, researching and experimenting and finally he came up with a comprehensive theory and published it.

Mr Campbell uses scientific terms and claims to be a scientist, but there seems to be some doubt at least in my mind about his credentials as a scientist. If you dig a little deeper, you’ll see what I mean.

Bear in mind that he chose not to publish his findings in a scientific journal subject to peer review, either, as most scientists aspire to do with their scientific studies.

His books are reviewed however, on Amazon.com

I have no doubt about your sincere intent to share your joy and appreciation. Enough about Mr Campbell and the Hicks! You have not shared what it has done for you in your life, nor your personal verifications for how it works. Have you attended Mr Campbell’s workshops? Do you give workshops yourself?

Set against the backdrop of the fact that apparently you take a nominal fee to provide your services to others, hopefully you can grasp why people do not always respond to you with all the unconditional love and appreciation that you apparently have for us.

If unconditional love and appreciation are what you are really sending out, you may ask yourself, why aren’t you getting that back? Is it everyone else’s fault?

If, as you say, your “intent is to learn more, to see more connections and to apply them to see if they work for me.“, and you still posess a “skeptical yet open mind” as Campbell suggests, then I should think that you would be more open to the skepticism expressed here by your peer group and take account for the “Quantum Woo” effect that Bruce was talking about.

You may one day thank Bruce for his exquisitely fine tuned bullshit detector.

I wish you and your family well.

202. Ron aka Renald - November 28, 2014

201 – Whalerider – in this linked youtube vieo Tom answers some of your questions regarding his education and job history starting at the question from about 28.31. Of course the book covers that as well.
Thank you for your efforts at being civil.


203. Arthur - November 28, 2014

WoW!?!, I didn’t know about “looking in, looking out” before 1972. That was the Theory of Celestial Influence also too.

Anyways, I found a new Guru. RB by name Russell Brand aka.

He’s onto raising the level of politics and calls it “spiritual revolution”.

I wonder if knows about “looking in, looking out”?

Some of youse have harpy claws.

204. Robert Stolzle - November 28, 2014

Ladies and Gentlemen-

One of the characteristics of true understanding of any scientific concept, theory or process is the ability to explain the the basic meaning and importance of that concept to anyone, of any background…..assuming they are interested. I am a working geologist and deal with some complicated processes. “The devil is in the details” and I can get into lengthy discussions of any theory with my cohorts, but I can also get the basics of any idea across in a couple of paragraphs. The esoterica discussed here should be no different, especially since we all learned to speak “Fourth Way”.

This is not just my personal notion, but a characteristic of any good scientific writing and teaching. One mistake that non-scientists often make is to ascribe greater credibility to “a scientist”……or to “trash” them. A scientist often works from a preconceived notion and then tests to verify the accuracy of that theory. It is axiomatic that most theories are subsequently discarded. This is not easy, but it is a necessary part of the process of verification. There are many dead ends and many cockamamie theories have been published and later discredited.

The concept of “scientific testing” comes up short when a notable scientist like Nobel Laureate chemist Linus Pauling has a personal experience with vitamin C and then endorses it as a cure for the common cold without any experimental support. Another trap is when a scientist with a background in one area starts to pontificate outside his area of expertise. A degree in physics does not confer a deeper understanding of human psychology. A third shortcoming, and one greatly in evidence here, is in quasi-scientific fields like “psychic research”. No one, of any background or training, can compose a scientific text book on say, …..astral projection, because there is no real science to support the concept. This region is rife with pretense.

It is well and good here, on this blog, to say that this or that did or didn’t work for me. But, just because someone can blather on in a book about say, ancient astronauts does nothing to benefit anyone except the author of the book. Just because some interesting subject is discussed in a book or on a video does nothing to substantiate the usefulness or benefit of that idea…….and it does not make it science.

And, finally, there is no cabal of insiders keeping scientific truth from the public. “Detroit” has not squirreled away the patents for the carburetor that will let engines run on water……..the oil companies did that!
(“that’s a joke son”, Foghorn Leghorn)

Bob Stolzle

205. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 28, 2014

@204 – Robert Stozle . All true. At the same time there is also another side to that coin, well actually more than one other side but the direct opposite side has seen people being disenfranchized, lose their licence to practice medicine and so on for daring to look over the fence. Most have likely never heard of such things because for some unknown reason the facts are hidden. I am not saying that this is some conspirational movement. Explain to me though for example why one of the brightest American minds of the 20th century, Royal Raymond Rife was ostracized. Or why a medical doctor in Canada would lose his license to practice because he happened to have bought an electron microscope back in the forties. It is lonely at the top, that we all realize. Greatness or genius mostly comes from the margins. I wonder why! That is a facetious comment since I know very well why. What prestigious university does not confer honorary degrees and why? Maybe they just want to jump on some hard working person’s band wagon after the fact and grab some glory? Just a guess.
Do any theories exist in scientific establishment which have never been proven but still are accepted as truth? Plenty and many are of utmost importance.
If a technology is developed which somehow works, should it be rejected and buried? Yet that is what sometimes happens. Why?
There can exist some good reasons and as well some bad reasons such as economical, financial, political and even egoistical. Naw! Tell me it ain’t true! Do I mean that capitalism can actually be supervised and slanted? Yep.
The bottom line is that we are all different in some ways due to many reasons and so what criteria is accepted or rejected for whatever reasons are individual ones.
I certainly do not profess to know the answers in detail which would explain how the results of my experiments came about. Until recently I did not much care. I did not have to even mention them to anyone else. Recently I have run across this TOE and now the game is changing. Now there exists a structure which can be used to test the theory and if it works ALL of the time great change will take place on many scales and directions. This testing needs to be run at all levels, especially at the governing level but they will not consider it. We can wait till the old foggies die and new generations grow with more liberal ideas because they will not have so much invested. My thinking is merely to use modern communications to speed the process up. Like someone said I did not even go to college. So logically my besy option is to shed a little light on new possibilities and hope that some more qualified minds will check this out and keep the ball rolling for the benefit of all. There are no decent reasons why in a couple generations hospitals and penitentiaries would not become next to extinct, just for openers. I will stop here otherwise this rant will never end.
In friendship, Ron

206. Robert Stolzle - November 28, 2014


Okay, it’s the weekend, so here goes……again.

First, I have never heard of Royal Raymond Rife…or why a Canadian doctor would have been disciplined for having an electron microscope. I didn’t even know they had been invented in the 1940’s. I actually had the opportunity to run one at college in the early ’70’s–very cool. But, lots of bad things happen to good people and vice versa.

I do know, however, that many very bright, high IQ people are prone to have borderline to critical mental imbalances. I personally know a couple of near genius people who developed schizophrenia in their 20’s. I don’t know that it is a pattern, but I’m sure that mental stability has little or no connection to intelligence or other social predispositions. Anyone can be crazy, it is just the ones who appear sane that are dangerous.

Please stop leaning on your education; it has nothing to do with the experiences and theories you bring to the table. But, on the topic of theories, the idea that a “theory” is just someone’s best guess is not scientifically accurate; there are very few proven “facts” in science and these are mostly defined by math and physics. A theory is broadly accepted as being the best explanation; a hypothesis is a tentative conclusion drawn from many observations. Really, nothing in “science” is carved in stone or a immutable fact. This has nothing to do with your recent enthusiasms being embraced or dismissed as “science”.

“Recently I have run across this TOE and now the game is changing.” Ron, these self-referential circumlocutions and obtuse references are impossible to understand. I have no understanding of YOUR experiences with these so called experiments, what the “tests” really are, or what you personally hope to gain from them. I infer from your commentary that you believe these techniques may even promote world peace. Praise God, I hope you’re right, but for now I can’t say that I have even a clue about the subject from the glittering generalities that you throw about. What the f–k are you up to? Your “answers” here seem evasive in the extreme. A good theory needs to stand up to every sort of questioning and serious inquiry before it is given any credibility, and I doubt that any really beneficial technique will remain obscure for long. The FoF would be the world wide church by now if it had any real merit.

Bob Stolzle

207. Arthur - November 28, 2014

I have a theory. When I reached the fourth grade, my “intellect” went sour. When I reached the eighth grade and failed, my “emotions’ went south. When I went to the tenth grade and day dreamed out the window, my “physical” brain got up and moved and never went back.

I have no scientific understanding to test my theory but it sounds true and that’s good enough proof.

208. brucelevy - November 29, 2014

What Bob said…

209. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - November 30, 2014

@206 Robert Stolzle – partially quoting me ” “Recently I have run across this TOE and now the game is changing.” Ron, these self-referential circumlocutions and obtuse references are impossible to understand. I have no understanding of YOUR experiences with these so called experiments, what the “tests” really are, or what you personally hope to gain from them.

I clearly stated that previous to my running across the Tom Campbell material I had already been sufficiently convinced that the law of attraction material worked. I posted my conclusions on this blog somewhere years ago for whatever it was worth and then went quietly away.
Having checked out his Theory of Everything trilogy I realized that this was a way of presenting much of the resisted information in a different way, one which will appeal to the more intellectual types and so I posted what was supposed to be a very brief outline and where that info could be found. That should have been it, a useful reference. Again it is not for everyone but MAYBE for someone.
If you are not interested enough to do any homework then simply ignore it. I am not teaching anything. I am not preaching anything. I am not getting anything from posting that info except for the satisfaction of knowing that I tried to pay something forward in the best manner that I could think of in this location. Period.
Yes I was guilty of having negative expectations since that had been my previous experience on here but I tried to overcome those and improve my Self, my Being by ignoring those old thoughts, that old useless belief. To some degree I did see some improvement and am happy for that. If there is ever a next time I hope to see even more improvement.

210. Robert Stolzle - November 30, 2014


Sorry, what is the “law of attraction material”?

Your intent to “pay something forward” is commendable.

I stopped “trying to become something or someone else” years ago. Just trying to “be” is the upper limit of my current efforts…….that and enjoying the ride. Maybe I have “crystallized”–whatever that is.

NO ONE gets off the planet alive, or comes around again…..at least not in any recognizable form. There is no evidence to the contrary.

I am convinced that most of the metaphysical searching described here, especially the FoF, is a waste of time and effort and often damaging. This is why I participate in this blog.

Good luck,

Bob Stolzle

211. Mick - November 30, 2014

I suppose there are some blogs where people post in the hopes that their remarks will be politely ignored. This ain’t one of them.

212. nigel harris price - November 30, 2014

There seems to be on recent blog postings the – dare I say it – American Nightmare, with the “It all refers to me” Theory. Many of us who have been ‘mashed’ by the (British) National Mental Health System have realised that, as Nelson Mandela stated, “Revenge is like taking poison, hoping that it will kill one’s enemies.”

Stuff the FOF and all it did/does to people. You could try viewing “The Bucket List” (fine acting by Nicholson, of course) and realise in your community or country (America – look at yourself in all your glorified putrefaction) and see what you can do for the disadvantaged and helpless.


213. nigel harris price - November 30, 2014

P.S. Worth reading…..

“The Way Things Are” by Lama Ole Nydahl (red-brown buddha phase)

214. shardofoblivion - December 1, 2014

#213 Nigel recommends “The way things are” by Lama Ole Nydahl. Lama Ole believes in life after death, which to my mind reveals a fundamental misunderstanding about what it means to be a person, which I would suggest is to be embodied in time, with a memory of previous experiences. He seems a good hearted and fun loving guy, who happens to be profoundly mistaken.

215. Linda Jo - December 1, 2014


brucelevy – February 18, 2008

@ 9 Vena

When I did a search I happened to come across their previous article which contained these interesting quotes: (lindalies)
[orig. published in Sacramento Bee – Dunne on Wine]

“Lawsuits accusing the group’s founder and spiritual leader, Robert Burton, of sexual improprieties scared off distributors,” says Beinstock; “one suit was dismissed and two others were settled by the Fellowship’s insurance companies to save the costs of litigation,” says Tulisso.

here it is…

“The Fellowship itself never paid a penny in settlement,” notes Tulisso, who added that “the suits were filed by former members who failed to produce evidence to support their accusations.”

What a slimy grease ball.

. . . . . . . . . .

131. nevasayneva – November 18, 2014

Another powerful person with dodgy ethics:


quote from the article:

“For Cosby to commit these assaults against multiple victims over several years, there had to be a network of willfully blind wallflowers at best, or people willing to aid him in committing these sexual crimes at worst.”

. . . . . . . .



quote from the article:

“This is the ugly truth. Rapists make us less uncomfortable than rape victims. Predators demand so much less than victims; they aren’t as inconvenient. They don’t bleed or hurt or reveal their gaping wounds. If we don’t doubt them, we do not have to doubt ourselves. That’s why the charm of Cliff Huxtable – a fictional character – is more important than the words of so many women. That’s why a university’s patina of prestige and gentility is more important than the words of any number of young women who have been raped on that campus.”

. . . . . . . . . .

131. ton – December 18, 2009

By holding Burton as perfect and thus beyond ordinary explanations, his presumed specialness can be used to justify anything. Some deeper, occult reason can always be ascribed to anything Burton does: Burton… gives so much that a little excess is understandable. He punishes those who disobey him not out of anger but out of necessity, as a good father would. He uses sex to teach about energy and detachment. He lives an opulent life to break people’s simplistic preconceptions of what ego-loss should look like; it also shows how detached and unconcerned he is about what others think. For after all, ‘Once enlightened, one can do anything.’ Believing this dictum makes any action justifiable.

It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship and not know it. In fact, knowing it can interfere with surrender.
Burton recognizes, reinforces, and rewards surrender, and negates non-surrender. Aside from the more tangible rewards, Burton reinforces devotion with attention and approval, and punishes its lack by withdrawing them. Burton punishes those who doubt. Doubt is not the way to get into the inner circle. His students believe that surrender to Burton is essential for their “evolution.” Burton’s teachings imply believing in surrender, this is essential for transmitting his teachings. Burton is aware he is manipulating people to surrender, he may even secretly rationalize that he is doing so ‘for their own good’ — but in reality he does so for HIS own good. Burton’s rationalization not only “justifies” his manipulation, it also “justifies” dissembling (lying) in order to eliminate people’s doubts – all this is being done in the name of fostering “spiritual growth.”

People whose power is based on the surrender of others develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior, or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging questions. To be thought enlightened, one must appear not only certain that one is, but certain about most everything else, too.

Burton undercuts reason as a path to understanding. In the case of discursive inquiry, he places the highest value on paradox which easily lends itself to mental manipulation. If you take a position that contradicts burtonism, you are always shown to be missing the point; the point being that Burton knows something you cannot.

Burton’s ambitions are realized by the way he exercises power, this through rewarding the enthusiasms of his followers with praise and positions in his hierarchy. He also whets and manipulates desire by offering ‘carrots,’ and promising that through him the disciples’ desires will be realized, possibly even in this lifetime. The group itself becomes an echo of Burton, with the members filling each other’s needs. Within the community there is a sense of both intimacy and potency, and a celebratory, party-like atmosphere often reigns. Everything seems perfect; everyone is moving along the appropriate spiritual path. Burton is relatively accessible, charming, even “fun” — after all, he IS the life of HIS party.

Burton’s stance toward outsiders is of benign superiority.
Many gurus and spiritual authorities negate, make light of, or even ridicule the use and value of Western psychotherapy because its concepts of the unconscious undermine their authority and power. To acknowledge that unconscious factors may be operative in oneself means that one cannot be totally sure of one’s self.

A primary goal in therapy is to free clients from their need to transfer unresolved issues onto others. This need makes people particularly susceptible to authoritarian control. Good therapists aim at being very conscious of how they deal with transference.

The above is paraphrased, edited and adapted from an original article found here:

. . . . . . . .

‘Guru’ is a metaphor for anyone who manipulates under the guise of ‘knowing what’s best’

From The Guru Papers, Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer & Diana Alstad

216. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - December 1, 2014

@215 LindaJo – Are you saying that the lower cannot see the higher?
You quote ” Many gurus and spiritual authorities negate, make light of, or even ridicule the use and value of Western psychotherapy because its concepts of the unconscious undermine their authority and power. ” How do you know that this is why they APPEAR to be exhibiting superiority? After all purposeful misunderstanding and miscommunications are the rule rather than the exception. Talk about the Tower of Babel! Just try reading any page on this blog and if that does not convince you then try reading two of them. Looks to me that they have plenty of reason to feel superior but that does not mean that they do so. A better question might be ” Why do you fear so much?” It sure does not take a ” guru” to see what is not best for oneself, at least in the short haul. All that is needed is an awareness of one’s emotions and if I had to state what I learned in the FOF it was this awareness of negative emotions. Too bad more focus was not placed on being aware of the positive ones or maybe that was just me ” seeing through glasses darkly”, lol.

217. WhaleRider - December 1, 2014

@Ron Brisson aka Renald
I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the reason you are unwilling to discuss your personal verifications of the law of attraction is you could be harboring the unconscious fear that the law may be a delusion and evidence of magical thinking, IMO.

Your avoidance of the matter speaks volumes. Linda Jo doesn’t seem to me to be coming from a place of fear…like you are.

C’mon Ron, spill the beans. Lighten up. You have nothing to lose but your illusions. If you want to “be”, then be…honest. You will feel a lot better. When’s the last time you had a good cry? Or is crying a forbidden display of negative emotion in your universe?

218. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - December 1, 2014

@217 Whalerider- Watch out for those limbs! What do my verifications have to do with you? It takes less than 15 minutes to run an experiment and it is fun. My experiments were so off the wall that nobody was more surprised than me when they manifested and so quickly for the most part. If I did tell you about most of them you would automatically, just as you have already, disbelieve me anyways. Bruce’s bs detector glasses would melt on his face.
I am just as skeptic as he and you are put together but the difference is that I bother to check subjects out when I am interested. You see if I by my actions put you or anyone else in a position of resistance I would be doing you harm. At least now you seem to be slightly curious and that is good for you which means that if you check it out you will then be in a position to gain and then maybe pay it forward just like coffees at Starbuck’s. Of course I could be wrong since it is possible that whatever you post here is not sincere but I doubt it.
If you don’t know how to proceed with an experiment check out the Abraham-Hicks book ” Ask And It Is Given”. I believe that it is even in audio on youtube in its entirety.

As for crying I have good cries and bad cries quite often. My bad cries are based on the loss of loved ones due to my mistakes. Some of that stuff is hard to transform and will sneak up on me from time to time. My good cries are usually cries of gratitude.
Could it be that you are seeing yourself in my posts?
Check out on youtube ” The Seven Mirrors of the Essenes”.
Even if it is not useful for your good it might help you in your analysis of others, lol.

Thank you for your good intentions. Every little bit helps.

219. WhaleRider - December 1, 2014

@Ron Brisson aka Renald

“If I did tell you about most of them you would automatically, just as you have already, disbelieve me anyways.”

I’d rather hear the evidence from you, a live person, not read about it in a book.

If you automatically assume I will disbelieve you, Ron, that is suspect to me. It feels like you are hiding something, like the fear you may be harboring a delusion. What have you got to lose?

Not to worry, it is only your ego that feels threatened, no one can do you any bodily harm here.

Of course I am seeing myself in your posts, as you are seeing yourself in mine. I have just as open and skeptical mind as you do.

Do you honestly believe you can control physical matter with your thoughts and intentions?

Sounds fairly grandiose to me. Can you demonstrate that? Give me an example.

220. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - December 1, 2014

First for Nigel: Here is an excerpt from yesterday’s Abraham-Hicks workshop:

Hot Seat: I came into this life with two diseases that give me brain hiccups. Thoughts create reality. What do you do if you’ve got brain hiccups?

Abraham: Everybody’s got them. You just use different things as your excuse to explain them. De-emphasize them. We’d stop telling that story. We’d say, “I came to earth with a powerful intention to explore contrast early on in order to fill a vortex full of desires, each and every one of which can be realized.

And now I’m hooking up with some understanding of the laws of the Universe and because of the brain hiccups that I’ve been condemning, I find myself more receptive to vibration than almost anybody I know. Because I’ve learned how to deemphasize focus so I can hold myself in a place of allowing.

And since the new order of the day is about emphasizing receptivity, I’m really good at that. So I’m eager to get on with it.”

Hot Seat: I feel like it’s harder for people with brain hiccups to focus.

Abraham: It’s actually easier. Because your focus is not your friend if you are focused upon conditions that are preventing you from your receptivity…. There is this desire to compare yourself with others and to conclude a limitation which is then used to explain why you sometimes don’t get the things that you want. And given what we’ve been talking about here today, you can feel how silly that is, especially when you made the decision to come fully knowing what the experience would be like.

In other words, you did not come with any limitations. you came with enhanced probability of maintaining your state of focus with less distraction. We haven’t said that to you often enough for you to believe it yet. And we can feel you challenging it when we say it. You feel resonance and then you challenge, you feel resonance and then you challenge.

We just want to ask you, would it be to your advantage to go with the flow of that?

Do you believe there is a Source energy part of you that even while you are here, still remains non-physically focused that is the dominant external part of you? Some refer to that as Soul. We like the term Inner Being, Source. So since you know that part of you exists, do you believe… that that Source Energy part of you is interested in this extension of Itself called you? Do you believe that there is keen love and appreciation and interest for what you are about here? Do you believe that from that vantage point of nonresistance and Pure Positive Energy that you would have chosen any true disadvantage for yourself?

Hot Seat: I guess it’s not a disadvantage. [applause]

Abraham: Because your logic tells you that since it’s from that vantage point that it was chosen, that it must have been on the path for some reason. So as you look for the reasons that it’s to your advantage instead of against your advantage, now you are in receptive mode. And oh, boy!, Oh, boy! What comes next!

You see how it works?……

Hot Seat: [she cries]

Abraham: Feels like relief doesn’t it, feels like relief, feels like relief. Man, I thought I was broken. Now I find out I’m cool!

I guess you, Whalerider, also could find that excerpt interesting.

Now, the evidence is not in a book. The evidence is in your consciousness. The book merely tips people off as to how to receive, the best steps to use to get there and they are as simple as 1,2,3.

I explained before that my results are my results and if ego would be involved here it would be in the telling of them. See how powerful I am? Look at these miraculous manifestations that I created! And that would stink and you would know it and the natural next step would be to walk away from the stench. And that would be your, my, and everyone else’s loss. If that is my fear, then so be it. Any idea taken to extremes turns into its opposite. I could even say that there has to be some scale and relativity. Even if I thought you were ready to hear my results, had a right attitude and if I also was inspired to give you some of the details, I would still have to respect the privacy of those I worked on. There are constraints even when intent is pure.

Your question about controlling physical matter leaves me in some confusion as to how to approach it, from what perpective to answer.
The question comes from a deterministic-belief background or causal reality. I do not share that view. My view is of the probabilistic bent.
I could begin by saying that we are all one. If you want to talk about subconscious I could say that what I am thinking here and writing here you have already received. I even pointed to an example of that in a previous post where I had already heard what you intended to tell me about my education. We both had that thought at the same time actually and so I chuckled when I saw your comment about your suspicion that I had not attended college. The thought comes as a paragraph, so to speak, a subject. The intellect translates it as best as possible under the circumstances and Bob’s your uncle.
So that is an example about how we influence each other and then if there is no resistance, a free will condition, the dominoes start to fall in place. So if I were to tell in advance what intention I had it would 99.99% of the time be seen as precognition. Certainly after a sufficient number of results manifest exactly as intended there can exist a kind of precognition but in my case with my experiments there was no such thought. I was simply sticking my neck out in a fun loving friendly, imaginative way and of the details only were even thought of in order to maintain the correct state for a sufficient amount of minutes.(13).
This sometimes is done in this reality from a non-physical (to us) reality but is rare and must be inconspicuous. You would save me a lot of trouble if you simply accessed this info yourself by either listening to the trilogy, interviews, or conferences as I recommended.
It is explained way better there than what I can achieve. It is a large subject with many moving parts, so to speak, and having it all come together can require patience and effort but I promise you it is worthwhile doing. Further if you did started this process and wanted some assistance I would be glad to help in any way I could and personally at that. That applies to anyone else reading this comment or discussion.
All is well.

221. shardofoblivion - December 2, 2014

Brain hiccups?

222. brucelevy - December 2, 2014

verbal and intellectual diarrhea

223. WhaleRider - December 2, 2014

@Ron Brisson aka Renald

Ok Ron, I am curious. Have you ever put yourself on the hot seat?

I’m not sure I would trust you yet to help me or anyone else if you are unable to explain how the process works in your own words, Ron, drawing from your own experiences.

This is the value of going to college. Any subject you learn at college, you are expected to be able to explain your understanding of it…in writing and sometimes verbally…otherwise you don’t graduate, nor do you start teaching others what you can’t explain.

Cosmos speak aside, I have witnessed first hand the value of confronting and reframing self-defeating beliefs in group therapy as in your example above. It can be very therapeutic. The basic group therapy model is there.

The difference here is that Abraham is unconsciously engaging in the mystification process by using the pronoun “we” when he addresses the participant. Unless he’s referring to he and his wife, he’s doing a bit of faith healing type therapy, calling upon the ether, channeling the spirits…etc…or using what might be termed an “alter ego”.

His followers can’t verify the existence of the soul, nor that he is who he says he is either, but as long as he has conviction, they will start believing what he says based upon faith.

Sound familiar?

OK yes, that’s a huge improvement over a leader who just wants to get into your pants.

224. Robert Stolzle - December 2, 2014

Ron at #220-

Seriously, I need some definitions so I can follow the discussion.
1. the Law of Attraction
2. brain hiccups
3. thoughts create reality (how so?)
4. receptive to vibration (which vibrations)
5. feeling resonance (with what)
6. Source Energy
7. Pure Positive Energy
8. deterministic-belief background (causal reality)
9. a free will condition (Is what?)

Is it your desire to become a guru of the Abraham-Hicks?

Perhaps you did learn more from the FoF than the rest of us.

Bob Stolzle

225. Mick - December 2, 2014

Brain hiccups are like brain farts – letting go is easy, holding it in is difficult.

226. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - December 2, 2014

Comedy is good.
This is the 21st century. Information is at your fingertips.
Even today some of the knowledge or understanding which I heard about in the Fourth Way material hit me square between the eyes, some 25 years later. The more information we gather the broader the spectrum becomes and it all starts to make perfect sense.
But nobody, not even the revered phd’s can teach this stuff.
If someone wants to get in your pants and gets into your pants why have you not previously learned your own boundaries? I guess that pretty well explains all the resistance to any suggestions put forward on this particular blog.
Once again I have given all that was needed and much more. Take it or leave it.
I am not your keeper, at least not on the level we are talking about.

Just forget it. I was just bullshitting you. Happy now? Great!

227. nevasayneva - December 2, 2014

????Really???? now we are discussing “Abraham-Hicks”????

From Wikipedia:

The essence of Abraham–Hicks’ teachings since 1986 has been presented as follows:[6]

“Individuals are physical extensions of the non-physical.”
– Completely unprovable
“People are in their bodies because they chose to be.”
– Duh!
“The basis of life is freedom; the purpose of life is joy.”
-Woo hoo!
“People are creators; they create with their thoughts.”
“Whatever people can imagine totally & completely, by creating a perfect vibrational match, is theirs to be, or do, or have.”
-The American dream
“Individuals choose their creations as they choose their thoughts.
Emotions indicate what people are creating, either consciously or subconsciously.”
-Guess I am going to burn in hell that I am busily creating then.
“The Universe adores people; it knows their broadest intentions.”
– Quite easy to disprove this, look around

“Individuals should relax into their natural well-being, and know that all is well.”
-Woo hoo!
“Life is not meant to be a struggle, but a process of allowing.”
-Life is not meant to be something where other people tell you what life is meant to be.
“People are creators of “thoughtways” on their unique “paths of joy”.
– Duh
“Actions and money are by-products of focusing on joy.”
-You have to mention money somewhere to get people focused
“Individuals may depart their body without illness or pain.”
“People cannot die; their lives are everlasting.”
-completely unprovable
“The nature of the universe is infinite and expanding.”
– somebody read a physics/astronomy webpage
“Any desire born in one can be fulfilled.”
“Individuals are not only a part of the universe but are the very source of it.”

It seems a bit a dumbed down and puffed-up philosophy of the stoics with a dab of the american “you can be whatever you want to” throw in. The stoics were more succint.

“Our life is what our thoughts make it.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

“Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself in your way of thinking.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

228. leaf - December 2, 2014

Looks more like you’re bullshitting yourself. People are not agreeing with you. Because of that you’re surprised and disappointed. You’re not getting the validation you had hoped for, and it’s a blow to your ego. Despite that, you’re at least getting some attention, which more than anything was what you wanted at the outset, and what a lot of trolls are looking for here.

A lot of your words carry that same narcissistic vibe of the Fellowship: Look at me. Look at me, and my knowledge, my “understanding”, my “level of being.” It takes time to shed that type of baggage.

229. silentpurr - December 2, 2014

Ron, you seem to be a former fellowship student who has not yet come into contact with your capacity to be enthralled.

230. brucelevy - December 2, 2014

Ron, I think you are simply a nacissist with delusions of grandeur. A sort of passive agressive Greg . I would add that you have an over inflated sense of self but that’s naturally included when one is a narcissist.

231. nevasayneva - December 2, 2014

why is everyone beating up on Ron?
if you consider his posts boring and lacking any clarity, you can just skip reading them

232. brucelevy - December 2, 2014

For me it’s not that they are “boring and lacking any clarity”. It’s the attitude and bull shit behind it… all very familiar. And if you don’t like the discussion as it is going “nevasayneva” … you can “just skip reading them” as you say.

233. Opus111 - December 2, 2014

I am for science.

Did you know (that is what I was “told”) that it has never been scientifically proven that parachutes save lives.

I propose to design an experiment that would put a statistical end to this dilemma. I am having some difficult with the proposed size effect and SD in my power analysis needed to determine the minimum of subjects to arrive at the level of confidence I like (about 95%). My hypothesis is that 100% of the group jumping off a plane without a parachute will splatter to death; I am not confident that all of those wearing a parachute will survive (parachute opening problem, falling in water/onto church steeples, etc) – accidents happen after all. The only randomization would be the parachute, subjects will be allowed to wear PPE (that is Personal Protective Equipment, not Pure Positive Energy).

Any volunteers? I think this simple experiment represents a unique opportunity to advance the conversation on some of the topics discussed here. Assignment to control and experimental groups will be random (I do take bribes). Obviously the independent scientists determining the outcomes of the experiment will be blinded, to enlighten us all.

I do not yet have IRB approval at my University.

234. Robert Stolzle - December 3, 2014

Neva et al-

Thank you for taking the time to elucidate the Abraham-Hicks stuff that Ron Brisson has been blathering on about of the last month. The commentary was also pertinent and entertaining—Thanks again!

Truly, I don’t have to read all these postings. But, it seems that the only way to oppose this type of “magical thinking” at this distance (on a blog) is to present some sort of rational thinking as a counter point. I see no difference between the thought/belief processes that made the FoF attractive and the thinking that leads one to study the Abraham-Hicks or other fantasies. Anyone can study and participate in any religion or belief system they want, however, promoting these beliefs as proven science or the “key to the kingdom” bears the same stink as the FoF and any number of other cults.

Having left the FoF, most people posting here seem to have stepped back from the ideas and thinking that got them into it in the first place. And, they feel some obligation to debunk the FoF cult for the possible benefit of those who might be considering joining now. It is because of this self imposed obligation that I feel it necessary to debunk the other magical systems that occasionally show up here…….that and because I think they are self promoting B.S.

Thanks also to Mick for getting to the point,

Bob Stolzle

235. Linda Jo - December 3, 2014


Found this bit of Holiday Cheer yesterday – pretty funny IMHO – lol

135. The FOFion – December 19, 2009

Blog Sued

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (ARK) — The Fellowship of Friends filed a law suit Friday against The Blog.

“Not exactly a Christmasy thing to do,” said Blog CEO Payne N. Theass. “We’ll deal with it, though.”

Fellowship spokesperson Lynn Duh said the FOF has been building a case for months after someone accused FOF leader Robert Burton of being a “sociopath.”

“Look, everyone realizes the Teacher is a malignant narcissist with symptoms of multiple personality disorder and sexual compulsive disorder who lacks a conscience or any vague sense of sincere concern for his followers unless they serve his needs in some way,” Duh said at an afternoon press conference.

After taking a deep breath, she continued…

“But we’re outraged that The Blog is spreading this rumor that he’s a sociopath. Saying something like that tells you all you need to know about The Blog.”

During the press conference, Duh also announced that the FOF had a new motto that Centre Directors will hang from a banner during Prospective Student Meetings:

“Over One Thousand and Counting”

“It does draw some puzzled looks,” Duh admitted. “People don’t know what it means, and believe me, we don’t tell them.”

236. shardofoblivion - December 3, 2014

An interpretation of this teaching tale: The large rock is scientific reality, the little town by the sea is the community of all magical thinkers – not sure who the rock man could be.

237. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - December 3, 2014

January 1970)
Producer : George Martin
Lead vocals: Paul McCartney

When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be
And in my hour of darkness she is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be

And when the broken hearted people living in the world agree
There will be an answer, let it be
For though they may be parted, there is still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be
Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be
There will be an answer, let it be
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be
Yeah let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
There will be an answer, let it be

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
There will be an answer, let it be

And when the night is cloudy there is still a light that shines on me
Shine until tomorrow, let it be
I wake up to the sound of music, Mother Mary comes to me
There will be no sorrow, let it be eeee
Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah, let it be
There will be no sorrow, let it be
Let it be, let it be, yeah let it be, yeah, let it be
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be

238. Ron Brisson, aka Renald - December 3, 2014

I am grateful to Robert Earl Burton for providing me with so many fantastic learning opportunities.

I appreciate that the door in to the FOF is a revolving one.

I wish to thank Ginger for her loving timely guidance by way of a book called ” A New Beginning” by Jerry and Esther Hicks a mere three days before their workshop in Sacramento.

I also wish to send my warmest thoughts to the co-worker who lent me in 1984 a book of philosophy which I read and reread though I understood nothing of it. That taught me that I did not know as much as I thought I did. (arrogance and ignorance)

Belated Thanksgiving wishes to Tom Campbell for having the courage to follow his bliss or nudges.

A big smile for Carlos Casteneda whose books were an inspiration toward the reckless abandon needed to make quantum jumps into the unknown.

A wink and a nod to all those who feverishly administered personal attacks on this venue and clearly showed me the correct and non-judgemental path.

Finally a pat on my duck’s back for enjoying the humor of it all.


239. silentpurr - December 3, 2014

236, the rock man is bill nye.

240. nevasayneva - December 3, 2014

re 232 Bruce levy
yep, you are right…I was wrong. free speech on the blog includes the right to diss anyone, once the moderator deems it as not out of bounds. Yep, I should just ignore.

This whole FOF/Hicks or whatever suffers from being ego-centric….did Gurdjieff called that the selfish egoist? It is all what is in it for me. Me, Me me. Self evolution……Even the golden rule as it appears in FOF lingo is sort of converted to external consideration where one works to develop oneself in order to think of others.
Something is wrong when it is all about me and my development.

Sure I will help people but only after I have evolved myself.

I am not being too anti american I hope to mention that USA culture has a strong emphasis on personal achievement. (Bumper sticker “my kid is a honors student ” etc etc)
and a bit weak on group effort/achievement teamwork.
no bumper sticker “the kid three doors down is an honors student.”

Spirituality which emphasizes this personal achievement mixed with consumerism (the engine and backbone of the US economy) are well suited to the country and appeal to people. RB’s take on the fourth way and Hicks seem to have that element.

241. WhaleRider - December 3, 2014

@Ron Brisson aka Renald

“I am grateful to Robert Earl Burton for providing me with so many fantastic learning opportunities.”

Ron Brisson, it would be fine, dear, if you could please post your home address, telephone number, social security number, mother’s maiden name and bank account number.

I have a fantastic learning opportunity for you that I know you will really, really appreciate later. Honest!

You are so incredibly lucky! Not everyone gets this chance, you must be on your ninth lifetime or doing something right. Maybe you have an angel looking out for you!

No bullshit! It won’t cost you very much at first, but as you know, you only value what you pay for!

I know you will remember the experience for the rest of your life as I do, and be so happy when you think about it later.

Once you have verified this lesson for yourself, you will feel incredibly proud of yourself that you trusted me to teach you such a HUGE lesson!

242. leaf - December 3, 2014

“A wink and a nod to all those who feverishly administered personal attacks on this venue and clearly showed me the correct and non-judgemental path.”

What I saw were some fairly measured responses, and lot of patience with you. And what’s there to attack anyway? You’re just another one of the trolls who frequent these pages. Same thing, different form. Everything is spun. You like drawing attention away from the topics that challenge your worldview (almost the entire blog), and draw attention toward yourself.

What you’re really “winking and nodding to” is anyone who has the nerve to disagree with you and expose your nonsense for what it is.

The topic became “you” when you made it about “you” and what “you” have to offer that everyone else must listen to without question — because if they don’t, what on earth is wrong with them? It’s the same insanity that all of us experienced with Burton, who you so graciously expressed your thanks to on these pages. Now that was funny — a bit like speaking at a banquet and thanking the cook who poisoned everyone’s food at last year’s event. One would think you’d expect a few groans from the audience. But instead, you’re thinking: “Whoa, why did everyone stop listening?”

One thing I did learn from the FOF (and from several years of science courses) is that for every action there tends to be an equal reaction. You might start by looking at yourself if you really want to teach anyone.

Have fun, and good luck!

243. Linda Jo - December 3, 2014


Ron Dear, this is a summary:

116. Ron Brisson, aka Renald – November 12, 2014

re Robert Stozle’s post 107 quote

”Don’t quite know where to go with all the recent postings, but I’m still looking for insight into why we were particularly susceptible to the metaphysical palaver of the Fourth Way and the FoF.”

Easy friends, I can feel the hair on your backs bristling already.

Robert Dear, ” we get what we ask for whether we are aware of the asking or not and whether or not we are aware of getting it. ” That is a summary.

Actually if you got that insight, in the past, present or future, there is a 50-50 chance that you would right now be standing at the front gate begging for admittance. From my present perspective, a complete answer might require a thousand pages or so or I could also say it in one sentence such as the one above in quotation marks.

[Etc., etc., etc., blah, blah, blah – ad nauseam ]

. . . . . .

153. leaf

    139. brucelevy

    “Unbearably didactic and narcissistic” describes it perfectly.

That’s one way to describe the FoF, too, and all of its weird shenanigans. Some of the trolls who post here bring that same vibe.

. . . . . . . .

168. ton2u

Frank Zappa – Cosmik Debris

. . . . . . . .

Shelf Warmer via Google + 2 months ago:

Fuck All
Gurus, Cults,
Superstitious Simpletons
and Snake Oil Salesmen
trying to jive us with their Cosmik Debris!!
And Long Live Frank!!

. . . . . . . .

Zappa: “Don’t waste your time on me.”

. . . . . . . .

brucelevy: “I know you’re in love with the sound of your own thoughts [Brisson], but give us a fucking break.”

paul gregory: “You speak without the slightest real awareness of human psychology. Yet you offer the benefit of your wisdom. Which is to get over it, as you have. So get over your getting over it position, and go…
Good luck with your beliefs.”

Mick: “Fukers never respond well to suggestions…”

“I suppose there are some blogs where people post in the hopes that their remarks will be politely ignored. This ain’t one of them.”

. . . . . . . . .

269. Ames Gilbert – December 31, 2009

Someone (#87-260),
You’ve told us three times now that you have advanced from the path of the monk to the path that aspires to riches. So, we get it. Your advice is unneeded; how the heck do you think we’ve been paying our way in life since we left? Do you think that we are all on welfare or something? Bruce is one of the country’s leading experts in his field, and makes an excellent living at it. He has clients from all over the world. When you have worked in your new field, whatever it is, for thirty–five years, and risen to the top of it, then you will be qualified to give him advice.

You believe that we’re wasting our time here? Got it, no need to state your opinion again. Bruce and I and others obviously believe otherwise. We care to spend the time here, and it is not wasted. We think it is worthwhile warning people about Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. We think it is worthwhile to tell people in the Fellowship things we have found out while we were leaving and after we left. We know this is worthwhile because people tell us so. They tell us that we helped them leave, and they tell us that we helped and provided a little comfort to them on their new paths.

What does it matter if Bruce was abused 30 years ago or yesterday? The abuser is still abusing people. Burton is still conning people. Burton is still manipulating people. Burton is still lying through his teeth. Burton is still mentally ill. Burton is still completely controlled by greed, is still a satyr. And Burton continues to do great harm.

Go back to your masters and tell them I’ll leave off when the ‘prospective student’ meetings and the FoF websites tell the whole truth. The Fellowship of Friends uses the Fourth Way as bait to attract followers, but there is nothing of the Fourth Way in the organization. It is, rather, a new religion that worships Burton. Burton will demand sex from the better looking heterosexual males, in the name of their spiritual progress. Burton will demand absolute obedience in perpetuity. There is no graduation from his organization. He lies about his past, and he lies when he imagines he can predict the future, as evidenced by his one hundred percent record of failure. He lies when he claims to be an intermediary with supposed angels, and he lies when he claims he is ‘conscious’. Of course if the truth was told in these meetings, no one would join, so the deceit must continue. Go, tell your masters!

244. Linda Jo - December 4, 2014

One more worth re-posting

286. waskathleenw – December 31, 2009


It can take a long time to fully understand what happened in the Fellowship of Friends. It’s common to hold the reasons for leaving in one hand and the reasons why it was all worthwhile in the other — for a very long time. Holding both this way softens the edges of what is hard to look at and admit. It took me a lot of years to let go of that psychological balancing act. It sounds as though you aren’t there yet, and you are preaching to people who have seen way more of the exit process than you have.

You may feel differently about all this in 10 years, and I think you could learn a lot from the people here if you would listen rather than preach about things you don’t yet have the experience to understand.

I wish I’d had this resource when I left.

245. Robert Stolzle - December 4, 2014

Re; #237
Never knew “Let It Be” could be used as an incantation.

246. fofblogmoderator - December 4, 2014

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