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Fellowship Of Friends/Fourth Way School/Living Presence Discussion – Page 133 November 20, 2012

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the official site of The  Fellowship Of Friends;

http://www.livingpresence.com/

Comments

1. fofblogmoderator - November 20, 2012

from the previous page

“Any explorer coming to this page should be easily able to see what happens so often if one joins the Fellowship of Friends and takes the ever-changing whims of Robert Earl Burton, the psychotic leader, to heart. So, I’m speaking to you.
You have the opportunity right here that is hidden from you if you attend the “introductory meetings”, the opportunity to peek behind the scripted theatrical performance put on to you by actors who have rehearsed the scene times beyond counting.

You have the opportunity to meet and learn from one of the finest minds in the Fellowship, a representative sent out to battle with the forces of evil who manifest on this blog. You have the opportunity to engage, yourself, right here, if you are reading this while the page is current. I personally don’t know anything about the entity called, “I in the Sky”. But I can assure you, dear explorer, that I know a great deal in general, and I can give you some guidance about her motivations. This is because I was once an explorer just like you, seeking to find some answers to life’s Big Questions, just as you are. I was hoping for guidance on how to live my life more fully, how to bring some meaning to it that was missing. I was looking for some explanations that did not demand blind faith, that would engage much more of me than was required by conventional religions, that would be more practical than the output of western philosophy, no matter how closely argued.

Perhaps you are like I was, drawn to the Fourth Way, and hoping, like I did, that somehow there was a branch of it that yet still lived and that I would come to meet it.

So, I was ripe when I found a Fellowship of Friends bookmark in London in 1978. I was thrilled to go to the introductory meetings and engage with people who had apparently found some of the answers. And I felt lucky beyond measure when it seemed that I had stumbled upon a living branch of the Fourth Way, an heir and descendant of the System propounded by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.

My friend (I think I can call you that because we may have a lot in common already), I joined, and stayed in the organization for sixteen years. So I write from considerable experience. Not as much, of course, as some. The Fellowship of Friends has been going since 1971, and there some who have been there twenty, thirty and even forty years. But I was there sixteen years, quite enough, more than enough, to thoroughly observe the organization from many viewpoints. I was not a casual onlooker, I took the opportunity seriously, and my membership was the central point of my life. I’ve written a great deal about the results of that experience on these pages.

Many of the bloggers on this page have similar backgrounds and experiences. We joined, were mesmerized for a while, learned, and left. Please value our efforts and the time we have spent trying to reach people like you. I know this is a huge blog; we are here on the 132nd page, and some of the earlier pages had six hundred entries! It is an enormous amount to wade through. But the common thread running through all these pages is the warning: Stay Away. There are arguments and counter-arguments, and you’ll come to recognize some of the Fellowship of Friends representatives, become familiar with their tone, and you’ll be able to note their shallowness and obfuscation, and how ultimately they have changed from being explorers with open minds, as I was and I hope you are, to pawns in a charlatan’s fantasy.

So, right now, please pay close attention to “I in the Sky”, who formerly posted as “Daily Cardiac” in previous pages. This is a chance to see the workings of the hive mind, the groupthink that has become the guiding philosophy behind the Fellowship of Friends. And ponder the immense changes that must have occurred to someone like I in the Sky. She thought she was joining an organization based on the Fourth Way, which has a core principle, “Verify everything”. Question everything. Get down to the bedrock, where do all one’s ‘beliefs’ come from, how are we conditioned, what is of value in our mentation, how can we learn to disregard the rubbish, what in us is reliable, and how can we nurture it. She started out the same as you and I. Yet, during the course of her long membership, she has turned into the completely opposite direction, and proudly defends and even prosetylizes a religion. A religion with a leader, a messiah, an object of worship, Robert Burton, who proclaims himself a living god.

And, get this. She thinks she is headed in the same direction as the day when she joined! She literally has no idea about the changes she has made in herself, how she has twisted her mind to force herself to think that Burton’s religious organization is the same as the Fourth Way ‘school’ that she thought she had joined. In a word, she is mentally ill.

So, observe closely this product of Robert Burton’s school. If you join, you will be under the influence of people like her and Burton, and soon you will be thoroughly immersed in the group fantasy, and you too will be headed in the opposite direction without realizing it. You too will have to bury your conscience, subject yourself to the whims of the madman Burton, give up your reason, your money, your time, your chances of individuation, and if you are a young attractive male, your body for his sexual gratification.

Why, in heaven’s name, would you want to do that?”

2. WhaleRider - November 20, 2012

I in the sky:
“My motto is if you don’t like how someone treated you, don’t treat them the same way or else you are but another version of them. You are what you don’t like.”

For once you wrote something with which I agree.

Since you are what I don’t like about myself, I guess that does make me a pompous prick sometimes. Nevermind is right.

But I haven’t called you that until now, because I already knew that about myself.

Try driving into the crosswalk with me walking in the crosswalk!

The Fellowship cult is still a rape factory and people ought to stay away from it.

The “state of non-identification” is a myth…a fourth way buzzword.

Dissociation and depersonalization are real. You’ll have to trust me on that, because it’s a bit like being on low doses of PCP, which I wouldn’t recommend for anyone.

The practice of stepping back or letting go in some circumstances displays emotional intelligence, but not when you are in a house and a predator is loose.

3. WhaleRider - November 20, 2012

“Borderline persons are often attracted to charismatic persons who have a spiritual connection and who seem to be guided by higher forces than mere power drives.

The religious leaders to which the borderline person is drawn may be authentic, but their (borderline) followers can rarely incorporate spiritual values and instead become fixated on an idealization that often cracks when a flaw in the leader’s personality is revealed.

The quest for a spiritual dimension to life becomes a substitute for religious experience.

In authentic religious experience, the ego is overwhelmed, cast aside by a greater power that evokes images commonly associated with awe, terror, beauty, light, and infinity.

In a pseudoreligious quest, the ego gains a sanctuary in which it may take refuge, but the travails of daily life, including the experience of emptiness, and the terrors of abandonment continue.

The borderline person on his quest for the spirit may have a child-like innocence that discounts the dark shadow aspects of life.

For a time these dark forces may be forestalled, but eventually they will eclipse such innocence.

The borderline person does not become lost in delusions, as would be the case in a psychosis, but is trapped inside his or her defensive shell and, in a sense, is on the inside looking out.”

Nathan Schwartz-Salant, PhD, “The Borderline Personality-Vision and Healing”

4. I in the sky - November 20, 2012

Shard_of_Oblivion – end of last page:

“this practice of non-identification can lead to extremely dangerous states of mind, which Whalerider was pointing out. I do think that that is a serious point which needs to be made, depersonalisation is no joke.”

The practice of non-identification or separation has little, if anything, to do with dissociation and depersonalization as WhaleRider suggests.” You seem to share his views. He claims non-identification is a myth, I don’t know if you go that far with it.

To not identify is quite the opposite of dissociation or depersonalization. Daydreaming while engaged in other activities to alleviate boredom for instance, is considered a mild form of dissociation. As you know in the FoF one would ascribe to being present to the circumstances rather than succumbing to the boredom and then escaping it through daydreaming.

More advanced stages can include loss of memory or significant breaks from reality. Non-identification means exactly what the term implies – to not identify with whatever the stimulus is.To dissociate means to “block out” or to attempt to block out or distance oneself from what is causing the stress, trauma or difficulty. To not identify means to not be affected by the stimulus. Nothing changes but one’s relationship to the stimulus.

Think of the Buddha under the Banyan tree; as a last test all of his allurements and temptations appear before him to draw him away from the moment of his enlightenment. But he does not take the bait. All the temptations still appear attractive to him or it would not be a test. But it is a supreme struggle that he wins. He has arrived to the state of non-identification, or non-attachment.

It’s clear though that if someone does not believe in enlightenment there would certainly be no value in the concept of non-identification.

5. nigel - November 20, 2012

Some have suggested that not too many current FOF-ers, if any, read this blog. If this is true, what is the reason for “I in the Sky” posting? I feel he/she has had ‘permission’, if not actually told to post here to ‘deflect’ the truth that ex-members have reached and to ‘guard the little flock’. NO! – I feel that there is a definite percentage ‘leaning’ of current members, disenchanted with the ‘school’ and looking for reasons/support to perhaps make the (incredibly difficult for some) decision to leave.

If the Fellowship of Friends was/is/will be everything it claims and purports to be, there would be no reason for anyone to feel ‘cognitive dissonance’ in the group and, indeed, there would be an ever-increasing number of people joining. As we all know, from figures supplied by reputable bloggers, this is certainly not the case and the figures for membership are slowly dwindling.

For myself, having ‘survived’ the cult and come to a point of spiritual certainty (which certainty is actively discouraged in the FOF), I post to offer anyone the choice…..

FREEDOM FROM THE CULT AND THE LONG-TERM GOAL OF SELF-FULFILMENT…..

or

LIFELONG SERVILITY AND THE NEED TO SUPPORT BURTON, THE SEX-CRAZED, GREEDY, SELF-CENTRED CHARLATAN.

6. nigel - November 20, 2012

So, IITS, you think Burton is free, and fress his followers, from this?…..

al·lure (-lr)
v. al·lured, al·lur·ing, al·lures
v.tr.
To attract with something desirable; entice: Promises of quick profits allure the unwary investor.
v.intr.
To be highly, often subtly attractive: charms that still allure.
n.
The power to attract; enticement.

7. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 20, 2012

#4 Seems “I in the sky” wants to continue chatting about non-identification, which is an important topic, so I’m game.

I believe it is the dangerous part of the Gurdjieff system, which I think can be usefully boiled down to the two conscious shocks. The first conscious shock does little if no harm in my experience, being present is OK, though it reduces one’s life experience by unnecessarily making the practitioner feel guilty every time they lapse into imagination, but for the most part I don’t see it causing deep trauma. However the second conscious shock of non-identification at the moment of negative emotion in order to reap a harvest of higher energy, is something I would advise people to be very very careful of.

Now to examine “I in the sky”‘s understanding of these matters. He says “To not identify means to not be affected by the stimulus. Nothing changes but one’s relationship to the stimulus.” This is quite safe. And trivially easy compared to true non-identification. If you direct your attention in a certain way at the moment of receiving a stimulus that has the potential to cause some emotional reaction in you, you can avoid being affected. It is what I arrange when I am walking my dog, who can be a bit aggressive with certain dogs. I distract him, so his attention is no longer on the annoying little terrier that he would like to teach a lesson in respect. Can you see “I in the sky” that “to be not affected by the stimulus” will mean you DON’T get the supposed wonder effect of transformation, since you haven’t let the stimulus “get to you”. This will work fine in the social context of the FoF where everyone is watching each other and photographing perceived lapses in each other’s work, but will not produce the miracle that Gurdjieff was trying to induce in his followers. And a good thing too actually, your miscomprehension has been protecting you all these years.

You go on to recall to our minds the legend of the Buddha’s last temptations before his enlightenment, where you don’t notice that you contradict your earlier definition of non-identification, because you do realise that the Buddha proudly told his followers later about this experience of his, to point out that he WAS still able to be tempted, but he was able to resist. (what a guy!) ie the stimulus got through but he transformed the energy that resulted. I had a very similar experience that day I took the ayahuasca and felt the numinous presence of God in everything about me, and felt God’s signals being transmitted from the sky. A little earlier in the trip, shortly after the vomiting stage (which we will gloss over) my visual field became overwhelmed by the most vibrant, realistic and colourful hallucinations I have ever experienced. Much more saturated with colour than the delightful hallucinations that LSD induces. And as I cast my eye around the room I KNEW that if I let it happen I could step into the most vivid and realistic palace of sexual pleasure imaginable, it was right there in front of me. But I decided not to go there. My wife was baby sitting me on the trip, and something in me (I am an occasional wanker by the way) decided that there were better things I could do with the experience than have the most cosmic sex ever. I do not claim to be the Buddha (far from it), but I remembered his Bodhi tree experience at that moment, and felt I knew how he had felt that day.

8. Nevermind - November 20, 2012

“I do not claim to be the Buddha (far from it), but I remembered his Bodhi tree experience at that moment, and felt I knew how he had felt that day.”

If you want to experience what one of the greatest mystical influences in history experienced during a peak realization of higher consciousness then all you need to do is take some hallucinogenic drugs and you too can be what Jimmi Hendrix called “experienced.”

Anyone else believe this silliness? Mind bogglingly simpleminded. Drugs, the universal answer to the ultimate quest of all ages. Seriously?

9. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 20, 2012

#8
Have you tried them?

10. Nevermind - November 20, 2012

Irrelevant. Since I understood what Hendrix was referring to you can draw your own conclusions.

Consider this: why didn’t Christ, Buddha, Lao Tzu, etc. just recommend taking drugs? Why waste time with all that suffering, transforming, meditating and evaporating into the Tao?

Why didn’t the great masters just come right out and say: “People, if you want to become enlightened, realized immortal beings then tune in, turn on and drop acid around the Bodji tree.”

They didn’t say that because there is a bit more to the process of awakening higher consciousness than an induced psychotic episode of synthetic ecstasy.

11. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 20, 2012

#10 Nevermind, I never said that taking psychedelic drugs produces enlightenment. What I would say is that they produce extremely interesting states of mind. They also carry a real risk of causing mental anguish and misery, so I am not an evangelical promoter of these substances. Calm down mate, you are getting all hot and bothered.

12. Nevermind - November 20, 2012

“#10 Nevermind, I never said that taking psychedelic drugs produces enlightenment.”

I have to apologize here because I thought you had said the following in the context of answering I/Sky on the subject of ultimate realizations of non-identification:

“…but I remembered his Bodhi tree experience at that moment, and felt I knew how he had felt that day.”

It seemed that you had claimed that taking ayahuasca (and feeling God all around you), along with having the wisdom to forgo conscious sex, gave you a penetrating and revealing insight into the moment of the Buddha’s enlightenment. Honestly, it seemed like you just said all that in post #7. Now you are backpedaling and suggesting that I am making much more of your claims than you meant to claim.

Which is it Mr. Romney? Did ayahuasca give you a temporary God-aware Buddhist enlightenment or not?

13. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 20, 2012

#12 Nevermind, OK I happy to answer that.

Yes I took ayahuasca about eight years ago and had a very interesting experience. During that experience, at that time, I thought I understood how the Buddha had felt when he experienced his last temptations under the Bodhi tree. Even in that state of mind I did NOT think I had achieved any special enlightenment. An hour or so later I had the very palpable feeling that everything that surrounded me was God, filled with God, I could feel his presence in the room, I stood up and went into my back garden, and when I looked up my heart stopped at the beauty of the sky with clouds and shades of pink contrasting with the blue of the sky behind them. AT THAT MOMENT I had the feeling that there were vastly larger and more intelligent beings in the Universe, and that they use the sky as a work of art, to express to us poor earth bound humans a tiny hint of their states of being. But I am a scientific kind of guy, and some minutes later I concluded that this experience was not objective, but simply a consequence of the DMT in my brain. I then went back indoors and listened to Talk Talk’s music “Spirit of Eden” which helped me reintegrate back into normal consciousness.

I don’t honestly know whether having had a drug based psychedelic experience is helpful for those on the spiritual path, I know some say it is very damaging, but I am not convinced of that either.

I am no longer on a spiritual path myself, I am just living my life, and perfectly content with my state of consciousness as it is. My drug these days is my piano and to some extent this blog. And of course my dog and the woods outside my house, and good food, and sex with my wife etc etc – you get the picture.

14. Nevermind - November 20, 2012

“I don’t honestly know whether having had a drug based psychedelic experience is helpful for those on the spiritual path…”

I understand, you know, people start out trying to make a point about non-identification, a point they feel confident they can easily win, and instead end up taking too much and unconsciously padding the annals of their own legend with hallucinogenic tales of conditional Buddhist enlightenment through the mastery of sexual temptation. It happens.

You might admit to yourself that you don’t really know what non-identification actually is. Which was what you were talking about before getting sidetracked into reminiscing about a drug experience.

In your above post to I/Sky you were attempting to qualify and legitimize your opinion that Fourth Way non-identification was bunk, a trap, by painting yourself experienced in Buddhist nonattachment (through drugs) and are therefore qualified to dismiss the one over the other. That didn’t really work out logically.

15. Ames Gilbert - November 20, 2012

(sniff . . .)

Greg?

(sniff, sniff . . . )

16. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 20, 2012

#14 Well, luckily you were around to put me straight, thank goodness for that.

Yeah, I don’t really know what non-identification is.

“I in the sky” is probably on the brink of enlightenment, and we will get a ring side seat when that glorious event arrives.

Lucky us.
🙂

17. ton2u - November 20, 2012

imo:
drugs for some folks can be “a finger pointing the way.” the problem with this way is that the effects of the drug wear off… on the other hand the insights gleaned from the experience remain.
imo and from my own limited perspective, enlightenment is relative in that what’s commonly referred to as “enlightenment” involves levels or degrees. imo enlightenment involves an actual experience and not simply an abstract idea… but without the actual experience people only have their ideas (memes) as to what “enlightenment” might be — without the actual experience, enlightenment remains only an idea, merely a concept and in this case the IDEA of enlightenment is projected onto an idealized “enlightened being” like buddha or burton (ugh!). not at all the same as the actual experience.

imo it is narrow-minded and reflects of a kind of fundamentalistic thinking which leads some folks here to dismiss and diminish an experience of enlightenment (as described by shard)…. as if the experience is not “valid’ if it is not ‘achieved’ by proscribed/prescribed methods !!

joseph disappears and nevermind appears…. but then i thought joseph smelled a bit like greg too.

18. Nevermind - November 20, 2012

“joseph disappears and nevermind appears…. but then i thought joseph smelled a bit like greg too.”

“(sniff . . .)

“Greg?

“(sniff, sniff . . . )”

Yes, I am Greg and Joseph too. Anyone you like, or dislike. As the case may be.

17. ton2u:

“imo enlightenment involves an actual experience and not simply an abstract idea… but without the actual experience people only have their ideas (memes) as to what “enlightenment” might be — without the actual experience, enlightenment remains only an idea, merely a concept and in this case the IDEA of enlightenment is projected onto an idealized “enlightened being” like buddha or burton (ugh!). not at all the same as the actual experience.

imo it is narrow-minded and reflects of a kind of fundamentalistic thinking which leads some folks here to dismiss and diminish an experience of enlightenment (as described by shard)…. as if the experience is not “valid’ if it is not ‘achieved’ by proscribed/prescribed methods !!”

Here is why this is a logical fallacy:

a. Enlightenment is an experience.

b. For those who have not had the experience then enlightenment is just a word.

c. Ton2u speaks in a manner that gives the impression that he has had the experience.

From that position of authority Ton2u then claims that those using the word in a manner he perceives as a “meme” proves that they are not experienced in enlightenment. He tries to bolster his point by insisting that anyone relying on “proscribed/prescribed methods” or “projecting enlightenment on Buddha” has not experienced enlightenment.

The gist of the argument is simply: “I know what I’m talking about, I’m an authority, and anyone else not licensed by me (like Shard is) does not know what they are talking about. The obvious question is whether Ton2u actually has had an enlightenment experience or just believes he has.

19. nigel - November 20, 2012

Enlightenment in Buddhism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Part of a series on Buddhism

The English term enlightenment has been used to translate several Buddhist terms and concepts, most notably bodhi, kensho and satori. When referring to the Enlightenment of the Buddha (samma-sambodhi) and thus to the goal of the Buddhist path the word enlightenment is normally translating the Pali and Sanskrit word ‘bodhi’.

Kensho and Satori are Japanese terms used in Zen traditions. Kensho means “seeing into one’s true nature.” Ken means “seeing”, sho means “nature”, “essence”. Satori (Japanese) is often used interchangeably with kensho, but refers to the experience of kensho. The Rinzai tradition sees kensho as essential to the attainment of Buddhahood, but considers further practice essential to attain Buddhahood.

Bodhi (Sanskrit, Pāli) literally means “to have woken up and understood” and refers to the particular form of understanding or knowledge that the Buddha attained upon his awakening. This knowledge is an understanding into the causality by which sentient beings come into existence, as well as the operations of the mind which keep sentient beings imprisoned in craving, suffering and rebirth. Bodhi is thus the understanding of the way to liberate oneself from this imprisonment.

Yogacara uses the term āśraya parāvŗtti, “revolution of the basis”.

“… a sudden revulsion, turning, or re-turning of the ālaya vijñaña back into its original state of purity […] the Mind returns to its original condition of non-attachment, non-discrimination and non-duality”.

In this awakening it is realized that obeserver and observed are not distinct entities, but mutual co-dependent.

The full enlightenment attributed to buddhas is known as samyaksaṃbodhi (Skt.; Pāli: sammāsaṃbodhi) or anuttarā-samyak-saṃbodhi, “highest perfect awakening”.

Buddha’s awakening

Siddhartha Gautama, known as the Buddha, is said to have achieved full enlightenment, known as perfect Buddhahood (Skt. samyaksaṃbuddha; Pāli: sammāsaṃbuddha).

In the suttapitaka, the Buddhist canon as preserved in the Theravada-tradition, a couple of texts can be found in which the Buddha tells about his own awakening.

In the Vanapattha Sutta (Majjhima, chapter 17), the Buddha describes life in the jungle, and the attainment of awakening. After destroying the disturbances of the mind, and attaining concentration of the mind, he attained three knowledges (vidhya):

1.Insight in his past lives

2.Insight in the workings of Karma and Reincarnation

3.Insight in the Four Noble Truths

Insight in the Four Noble Truths is here being called awakening.

The monk (bikkhu) has

“…attained the unattained supreme security from bondage.”

Awakening is also being described as reaching Nirvana, the extinction of the passions whereby suffering is ended and no more rebirths take place. The insight arises that this liberation is certain:

“Knowledge arose in me, and insight: my freedom is certain, this is my last birth, now there is no rebirth”

So awakening is insight in karma and rebirth, insight in the Four Noble Truths, the extinction of the passions whereby Nirvana is reached, and the certainty that liberation has been reached.

Buddhahood

Buddhahood is the attainment of full awakening and becoming a Buddha. The term buddha has acquired somewhat different meanings in the various Buddhist traditions. An equivalent term for Buddha is Tathāgata, ‘the thus-gone’.

In Theravada Buddhism, reaching full awakening is equivalent in meaning to reaching Nirvāṇa. Attaining Nirvāṇa is the ultimate goal of Theravada and other śrāvaka traditions. It involves the abandonemnt of the ten fetters and the cessation of dukkha. Full awakening is reached in four stages.

In Mahāyāna Buddhism the Bodhisattva is the ideal. Not one’s own liberation in Nirvāṇa, but the liberation of all living beings is seen as the ultimate goal.

In time, the Buddha’s awakening came to be understood as an immediate full awakening and liberation, instead of the insight into and certainty about the way to follow to reach enlightenment. In some Zen traditions this perfection came to be relativized again; according to one contemporary Zen master, “Shakyamuni buddha and Bodhidharma are still practicing.”

But Mahayana Buddhism also developed a cosmology with a wide range of buddhas and bodhisattvas, who assist humans on their way to liberation.

20. ton2u - November 20, 2012

18 nevermind says:
“He tries to bolster his point by insisting that anyone relying on “proscribed/prescribed methods” or “projecting enlightenment on Buddha” has not experienced enlightenment.”

here nevermind attempst to ‘put words in my mouth’… in fact i didn’t say this at all’ — the implication is purely ‘his.’

while not negating a ‘proscribed and prescribed’ method i will ‘say’ these ‘methods’ are not the only “way.”

imo there is not “one way” — anyone who thinks so is very limited… anyone who thinks so is probably operating from a fundamentalist perspective.

nevermind evades describing his own experiences while continuing to question the experience of others… what’s this about?

21. James Mclemore - November 20, 2012

Nevermind at 18 says

“c. Ton2u speaks in a manner that gives the impression that he has had the experience.”

“From that position of authority Ton2u then claims that those using the word in a manner he perceives as a “meme” proves that they are not experienced in enlightenment.”

“The gist of the argument is simply: “I know what I’m talking about, I’m an authority, and anyone else not licensed by me (like Shard is) does not know what they are talking about”
**

Funny, but I did not get that feeling or ‘gist’ from ton2u’s post at all. But I definitely get that feeling or ‘gist’ of “I know what I’m talking about, I’m an authority”, from you.

22. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 20, 2012

In my subjective opinion, there is not any such thing as enlightenment.

Here’s why:

The idea, or something like it, has been around in various cultures for many centuries, so I look for a common feature that can be examined in more detail. One feature that seems pretty constant, is that a person who has achieved enlightenment is supposed by others and often claims themselves to have knowledge of the truth. However it is obvious that none of the people in the past who claimed enlightenment (or had it thrust upon them) had the complete picture about reality. And I laugh at those who will try to wriggle out of this by claiming that spiritual truth is different from truth. Truth is truth. And these so called enlightened beings did not know some pretty basic things. For example they had no idea that light behaves as both a particle and a wave depending upon which experiment you do. Now that fact is amazing, and if they had known it, they were seriously remiss in not mentioning it. But the truth is simpler, they didn’t know. What these enlightened beings in the past had, was a very big change in their consciousness that they mistook for some kind of ultimate destination, and the confidence and persuasiveness to convince others of their enlightened state. I hope they were happy after the change, but they were seriously mistaken.

Sorry if any of you find that news disappointing, I know how comforting it can be to believe that Jesus or Buddha or Gurdjieff or Burton or Ace’s bugs bunny’s little boy, knew the full answer, and if you only follow their advice you will be safe. But it’s not true, and to believe it in this day and age is in my opinion unforgivable.

23. ton2u - November 20, 2012

and… (thanks james) i never claimed any authority on the matter, in fact if you read carefully what was written i very deliberately couched my statements in terms of IMO — which means IN MY OPINION…

24. James Mclemore - November 20, 2012

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance–that principle is contempt prior to investigation”.

Herbert Spencer

25. I in the sky - November 21, 2012

On another note – Regarding the recent pot bust – the word around OH is that the charges were dropped against all of those involved. Apparently at lease two of the individuals had a license to grow on record with the Yuba County sheriff’s office.

Also rumored is that the CS (Confidential Source) was a former student; which is perhaps why the FoF was implicated.

Does anyone have any other confirming or conflicting information? Tim?

26. WhaleRider - November 21, 2012

I in the sky:

”The practice of non-identification or separation has little, if anything, to do with dissociation and depersonalization as WhaleRider suggests.” You seem to share his views. He claims non-identification is a myth, I don’t know if you go that far with it.

Think of the Buddha under the Banyan tree; as a last test all of his allurements and temptations appear before him to draw him away from the moment of his enlightenment. But he does not take the bait. All the temptations still appear attractive to him or it would not be a test. But it is a supreme struggle that he wins. He has arrived to the state of non-identification, or non-attachment.

It’s clear though that if someone does not believe in enlightenment there would certainly be no value in the concept of non-identification.”

Wrong. As I stated above, the concept and practice of not identifying, letting go, detaching, or emotionally separating is indeed a valuable process at times, just not all the time, practically speaking.

The meme of reaching some kind of permanent, enlightened state of non-identification or non-attachment to anything is idealized bullshit, quite frankly, and if one strove to put oneself into such a “state”, it would be more closely “ascribed” to depersonalization and/or a disassociated state than I in the sky claims, because I in the sky’s reasoning is obviously skewed by his or her thought blocking delusional belief system and resulting confirmation bias.

And the proof that non-attachment and non-identification and enlightenment are one in the same, is that I am supposed to “think about” (read: imagine) the myth of Buddha’s self-proscribed enlightenment under the Bodi tree, which happened after he had been fasting for some time and primarily because he said it happened. And people a long time ago believed his story and wrote about it, usually in idealized poetic form.

The Buddha, as the story goes, renounced all his alluring material wealth, and nice stuff, and expensive clothes made only of the finest silk, and nice shoes, the great food and wine that other people prepared for him, and all his servants and tempting consorts, and nice big bed, and his big house with a walled-in garden…to become “enlightened” and one with the universe…and gee, we ought to follow in his footsteps, too…and to prove our devotion to the cause, even make the lunatic vow to forever wander this earth until other sentient beings have reached nirvana before us.

And how does that apply to the Fellowship, exactly?

27. nigel - November 21, 2012

22. Shard of Oblivion

Perhaps this is the only paragraph that may prove useful, from the article which I copied and pasted from the web…..Nigel.

“Kensho and Satori are Japanese terms used in Zen traditions. Kensho means “seeing into one’s true nature.” Ken means “seeing”, sho means “nature”, “essence”. Satori (Japanese) is often used interchangeably with kensho, but refers to the experience of kensho.”

This is perhaps the only thing of which one can be aware and which can lead to a fulfilled life. I have never taken any drugs stronger than alcohol, nicotine and marijuana/hashish and have only had ‘strong states’ otherwise when I have been in a hypo/hyper-manic phase of my bipolar. However, as far as psychadelia goes, when I take Haloperidol to get off to sleep after an emotionally/mentally stimulating day, I often have multi-coloured, fantastically, symbolically charged dreams. Actually, I think I would be very perturbed by anything hallucenogenic happening in my day-to-day life. I like this little passage from the ‘English Hymnal’…..

“The common round, the daily task
Shall furnish all I need to ask…..”

28. James Mclemore - November 21, 2012

“The common round, the daily task
Shall furnish all I need to ask…..”

Thanks nigel. I like that a lot.

29. Nevermind - November 21, 2012

“nevermind evades describing his own experiences while continuing to question the experience of others… what’s this about?”

I haven’t experienced any ultimate enlightenment today. I didn’t resist any temptations either, for the most part. It was just another day. I’m not terribly bored but I’m not terribly excited either. On the other side of the world people are killing one another with bombs and missiles. I wonder what that kind of intensity must be like. Though, I wouldn’t really wish such an environment on myself.

Each day another twenty four hours of life disappears and nothing really happens. I watch myself pretending to live. Now I am angry because of some minor annoyance and now I am pleased because of some minor delight. I read a book by a famous philosopher and I can see how he is making it all up. He needs to publish and produces a transparent fiction about meeting a childhood companion in a dream while unraveling the meaning of the earth.

I’m pretending to live. I see myself acting out the mild drama by expressing each emotional reaction as it occurs, like a predictable marionette. I see myself as far more asleep than I could have perceived a few years ago. A few years ago I mistook my eager and optimistic personality, which was very interested in “consciousness,” as myself. Now I can see that it is simply another function of the human mechanism. I’m trapped in here watching the thing go on with its life without enough will to be able to tell it what to do and then make it do it.

I always sought escape, enlightenment and freedom and instead I am acutely aware of prison, sleep and a variety of stunned/resigned awareness. Sure, it would be easier to simply slip back into the loud and distracting commotion of all the reactions and call them me, but it is too late. I couldn’t really believe it.

30. nigel - November 21, 2012

…..from the “Ask” website…..

Was Jesus Christ a schizophrenic?

“Yes he was. It is unlikely that Jesus actually existed, but as a literary character or as an actual person, he exhibited many signs of schizophrenia. He heard voices (“god” talking to him,) had delusions of grandeur (believing he was the son of “god”) and hallucinations. These are all common positive symptoms of schizophrenia. There are other symptoms such as disorganized speech (the parables, perhaps?) and negative symptoms, but these might be a stretch. From a strictly factual, medical standpoint, “jesus” was probably suffering from schizophrenia.”

31. nigel - November 21, 2012

…..copied and pasted…..

Schizophrenia through History

Introduction

“Schizophrenics are different from normal people in that they do not have a desire for power and they are not capable of feeling hatred. Another characteristic is that they have replaced the idea of submissiveness with morality, which is their source to happiness in life. This has been a mystery that has eluded the medical profession throughout history – how these individuals can be happy despite the discrimination against them. The idea people have of assigning different values to people is completely incomprehensible to schizophrenics.

I will start by introducing a few famous people that I’ve judged to have schizophrenia as defined above. From there I will look into the original conflict that gave birth to the structural violence that we today call schizophrenia. I will point the finger at an individual that I strongly feel is guilty of organising the persecution of schizophrenics. After that I will look into how the schizophrenic has fitted into evolution. Based on this I will try to explain the behaviour towards the schizophrenic in today’s society. Finally I will present my view of how I think the schizophrenic fits into modern society.

The existing definition of schizophrenia is an example of structural violence, prejudice, and projection on behalf of psychiatrists. It is a piece of shit that has nothing to do with science. I even dare to say that schizophrenia in some cases can be diagnosed at birth due to physical signs. I doubt however that the full truth of schizophrenia will ever be known, since knowledge is power. That is my way of pointing out that the medical profession has a lot to lose and very little to gain from speaking the truth. The only thing they’ve got to gain is dignity.

Famous People with Schizophrenia

The first famous person is Buddha. He was born a son of a king, but it is my understanding that he was married in order to produce a child, at which time Buddha himself got kicked out of the kingdom. Buddhism is a philosophy with psychological advice on how to become happy. Today we call the psychology used by Buddha cognitive. To be able to develop this philosophy at that time must represent the greatest intellectual achievement in the history of mankind. Obvious signs of Buddha’s schizophrenia are his morality and indifference to people’s background, which expresses itself in that he speaks to thieves just as well as to priests.

Next we have Socrates. His life was a salutation to morality. He lived and breathed morality and in the end he died for it. Signs of his schizophrenia are his morality and the voice that he said guided him.

After that comes Jesus, the most obvious schizophrenic. Jesus had morality quite obviously and treated a whore with the outmost respect. His teaching is one of a kind since it is about love. I don’t want to make any interpretations or predictions as to why Jesus brought this gospel to mankind. Regarding Jesus’ signs as a schizophrenic it’s enough to say that any claim of it today gets you locked up.”

32. nigel - November 21, 2012

…..from Wikipedia…..

Narcissistic personality disorder

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the personality disorder. For more information on clinical research and types of narcissism, see Narcissism.
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity. This condition affects one percent of the population. First formulated in 1968, it was historically called megalomania, and it is closely linked to egocentrism.

History

The use of the term “narcissism” to describe excessive vanity and self-centredness predates by many years the modern medical classification of narcissistic personality disorder. The condition was named after a mythological Greek youth named Narcissus who became infatuated with his own reflection in a lake. He eventually died there because he couldn’t tear himself away from the admiration of his image.

The term “narcissistic personality structure” was introduced by Kernberg in 1967 and “narcissistic personality disorder” first proposed by Heinz Kohut in 1968.

33. nigel - November 21, 2012

…..from “Robert Earl Burton – An Unauthorized Blogography”…..

“I think the official painted portrait of Burton surrounded by expensive objets d’art, including a fawning dog, clearly demonstrates how he sees himself and would like others to see him. Paradoxically, JUSTLY, it conveys an ACCURATE impression of his utter dependency on “narcissistic supply.” The reflection of himself which so mesmerizes him must include numerous expensive baubles, columned porticos and fawning dogs to confirm his grandiose sense of his own worth and importance. It can never be enough to produce anything genuinely satisfying, hence the need for more more more, and to discard and devalue anything which challenges the reflection of himself he wants to see in the mirror of his interpersonal relations.”

34. I in the sky - November 21, 2012

Nevermind – 18:

“Yes, I am Greg and Joseph too. Anyone you like, or dislike. As the case may be.”

Hello Nevermind,
Allow me to introduce myself – I’m Linda!

35. Adab - November 21, 2012

The theoretical brou-ha-ha about non-identification seems to have gotten particularly loud over the last page or so! You can almost hear IITS rubbing his hands in his last two posts as everyone takes a snap at each other.

I don’t know whether there’s a theoretical way to prove the success or failure of an attitude of non-identification. I wouldn’t think so. However I do think that the experience of it is quite a simple and even common matter. Basically, we all do things a bit better when we don’t pour too much energy, or the wrong kind of energy into them.

For example, if I’m writing and in a state of concentration so that I snap at my wife when she asks me an innocent question, I’m probably not in the place I want to be. Yes I feel I’m focused but I’ve somehow lost the balance of my relationship to the outside world.

Most top sportsmen in the world would be able to describe the feeling of being totally focused – but not engrossed – in their actions when they are ‘in the zone’. The funny thing is that their sense of the world outside them is increased, not diminished by this ‘zone’. They hear everything, and they see everything that is going on around them, but they are able to remain relaxed and pure about what they are doing. A sportsman in this zone tends to make an indelible impression on the watcher, like Ballesteros or Michael Jordan at their best. They appear to be floating on the top of all the circumstances around them, however rough they get.

Read the following article :

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1147173-3,00.html

We all have experiences in our daily lives where we succeed apparently ‘without effort’ in little tasks, or fail at something which is really, really important to us. We fail when we get into some kind of ‘tunnel vision’ about the process, and lose that internal-external balance. We want it to happen internally, but somehow forget about letting it happen in the outside world.

“You have to help them realize that ‘I have to get out of my own way,'” says a sports psychologist in the article.

“Relaxing can help them imagine competing, getting in their own groove, feeling it, tasting it, reminding them of that feeling of flow.”

Take a look at the bloke who succeeds at the end of the following clip – he’s the one who’s on the phone to his mate while he’s dunking the basketball!

Most of the previous comments are so, so serious. Surely you have to be having some fun in the flow of life when you’re non-identifying, or what would be the point?

36. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 21, 2012

Well, well, well! This blog still has the capacity to totally surprise me, and that is why I love it. “I in the sky” reports some news about the pot busts – about which I had been wondering – and asks Tim if he knows more. (I am happy no one will spend a long stretch in jail for growing marijuana, there’s no way that is a crime in my book) Then Nevermind produces a sweet self revelatory post (OK he may be teasing us, but still it surprised the bejasus out of me) Nigel extracts a focused bit of buddhist information, which shows me I may have been a bit presumptuous by writing off all claims to enlightenment, ‘knowledge of self’ yes I can see that may well have been achieved, thanks Nigel. And thanks for the words from the english hymnal with which I concur. Whalerider’s voice is calm and measured, while demolishing the hyperbolic legends about Gautama Siddhatha. Adab brings some personally observed truth to the discussion about identification. James provides the voice of reason as always, and both “I in the sky” and Nevermind show a lightness of touch concerning their true identities that again I would not have expected.

So what do I know?

nothing

37. Adab - November 21, 2012

What it boils down to in essence, is whether you prefer to remain ‘stuck’ either for a few moments, or maybe for many years – or simply release yourself back into the flow of life, inner and outer, which has moved on past your concerns regardless. Then, ironically, you’ll be able to address those concerns with all the force and perseverance they deserve.

38. jomopinata - November 21, 2012

25/IITS

It would surprise me if the possession of growers’ permits meant the federal investigation was dropped. Federal marijuana prohibition preëmpts state laws legalizing growing and a state permit would not matter in a federal prosecution. (In a state prosecution, it would.)

39. stilltryin9 - November 21, 2012

Reply to Nevermind’s post #29:

I haven’t posted on this blog for years and only rarely visit it.

However, your words touch me in such a way that I feel compelled to acknowledge them.

Worth repeating:

“I’m trapped in here watching the thing go on with its life without enough will to be able to tell it what to do and then make it do it.”

“I always sought escape, enlightenment and freedom and instead I am acutely aware of prison, sleep and a variety of stunned/resigned awareness. Sure, it would be easier to simply slip back into the loud and distracting commotion of all the reactions and call them me, but it is too late. I couldn’t really believe it.”

You describe very well a state that I also have the “taste” of.

40. WhaleRider - November 21, 2012

Nevermind:
“I’m pretending to live. I see myself acting out the mild drama by expressing each emotional reaction as it occurs, like a predictable marionette…. I’m trapped in here watching the thing go on with its life without enough will to be able to tell it what to do and then make it do it…I always sought escape, enlightenment and freedom and instead I am acutely aware of prison, sleep and a variety of stunned/resigned awareness.”

Most people don’t express or act out each and every emotional reaction as it occurs, unless they have a mental disorder.

Borderline persons feel trapped in their defenses, stuck on the inside looking out.

Borderline persons are notorious for jacking up other people to alleviate their boredom…which is why they need to be around others, to feel their feelings for them.

So a person with borderline features, whom you seem to be addressing here, has the following choices: they can stay the same, moving from one train wrecked relationship to another or they can find a narcissistic charismatic leader who creates a field of intensity for them with a set of rigid rules with which they can use to beat up on the new or weaker followers, providing a stable refuge to their tortured ego, or they can seek help with a trained mental health professional.

And you are right, taking drugs just makes them worse, because there isn’t any medicine for the condition either.

41. Nevermind - November 21, 2012

“So a person with borderline features, whom you seem to be addressing here, has the following choices: they can stay the same, moving from one train wrecked relationship to another or they can find a narcissistic charismatic leader who creates a field of intensity for them with a set of rigid rules with which they can use to beat up on the new or weaker followers, providing a stable refuge to their tortured ego, or they can seek help with a trained mental health professional.”

As a person with obvious “borderline features” these are exactly the choices you made with your life.

First you moved from one train wrecked relationship to another.

Secondly you found a narcissistic charismatic leader.

Thirdly you sought a trained mental health professional.

Still, you seem like a brooding, bullying, angry complainer constantly reminding yourself and everyone else what a victim you are.

What I can’t figure out is why you feel qualified to offer psychological advice to others on such a regular basis. I mean, clean your own house first.

42. Ames Gilbert - November 21, 2012

When ‘I in the Sky’ just said that she was Linda, above, I observed quite an emotional jolt, because I used to know, or rather, be acquainted with Linda Kaplan, and I leapt to conclusions. And I know that if she actually blogged under her own name, my reactions and posts to her personally would be different as a result.
Of course, IITS has also said that s/he is male, just in the last couple of pages, so I’m not taking it too seriously, now a few minutes have passed.

A friend e-mailed me recently, and mentioned that s/he assumed a difference personality when blogging using an alias. I quote: “The funny thing about aliases on the blog is that the alias takes on a life and personality of its own. I have not enjoyed seeing the nastier side of myself, which came out a lot more at first.“

I’m sure reactions to my posts would be different if I did not post under my own name. Not just reactions, but the way readers actually take in and process the information. I say this because I definitely process information from those who use aliases differently from those who post under their own name, and the same goes for the few people using aliases here on this blog who have told me their identity privately for one reason or another.

I know I am harsher with the aliases, not being able to put a face to them definitely dehumanizes them in some way when I want to be critical. That is, I give myself permission to be harsher, because they are just letters on the screen. And it would seem that posting under an alias perhaps allows the poster the freedom to be harsher in their turn.

On the other hand…
If Nevermind actually turns out to be Greg, then I have baggage to process, because I know that Greg Goodwin used to ‘stalk’ this blog, copying posts (often daily) and criticizing them in what was often a cruel and vindictive and judgmental way on his own blog. He actually stalked certain bloggers, like surelyujest, for months at a time, lashing out at them at every opportunity. So, ‘knowing’ Greg only from those manifestations (I have never met him personally), which went on for years, I have this very strong aversion, which would color the way I would interact with him, were he to make himself know by his true name on this blog. Not to mention his history actually on this blog itself.

BTW, trying to look at the ‘jolt of emotion’ I just mentioned above, I can see fondness and sentiment, pity for her, regret for the situation, and a touch of remorse. That is quite a complex package there! All concentrated in about half a second.

43. Ames Gilbert - November 21, 2012

Jomo (#133-38 or thereabouts),
I believe you. A couple of months, Chris Williams was sentenced to 80 years for running a medical pot dispensary, though this was and is legal under Montana state law. 80 years! This is Obama’s Justice Department at work, and one of countless explicit promises made in his first campaign that Obama has broken. The story, here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/opinion/the-fight-over-medical-marijuana.html?_r=0

What a stupid waste of resources this $80 billion a year ‘war on drugs’ is!

44. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 21, 2012

#41 (ota) Ames, relative to your emotional jolt, I believe “I in the sky” was joking when he said “I’m Linda”. But then again could have been a double bluff.

what fun

by the way – I’m Miles B

45. Ames Gilbert - November 21, 2012

Regarding the gender of ‘I in the Sky’, of course it doesn’t matter.
If she is female, Burton has taught her that she is a second-class citizen, that she is a ‘lower cosmos than a man’, that she ‘cannot become conscious’ in this lifetime, and that if Burton wants the body of her husband or boyfriend for his sexual gratification, her duty and obligation is encourage the man ‘for the sake of his spiritual evolution’, to ‘transform her suffering’ and to wall off the festering wounds. Burton has taught her, her place in the hierarchy of his misogynistic fantasy, and she has learned her lessons well. Not to say that Burton will not use her if she has talents that support him, or if she has money, he’s not fussy in that regard.

If I in the Sky is male, he is emasculated. There may have been a time when he was attractive to Burton, and Burton wanted his body for his sexual gratification. His duty and obligation was to submit ‘for the sake of his spiritual evolution’, ‘transform his suffering’ and wall off the festering wounds. Burton has taught him his place in his fantasy, and whipped cur though he is, at least he is superior to the class of women in Burton’s world. And if he is exceptionally fawning and submissive, he will be of use after Burton no longer wants him sexually. And the most useful of all will be declared ‘conscious’ or ‘will be conscious sometime in the future’ as the ultimate reward.

He is further emasculated generally, as noted in this astute observation by Vena (http://tinyurl.com/av9tbg3) on page 20 of this blog:

When I joined the school in 1976 I had the very distinct awareness that there was something askew with the masculine element in the school. I remember thinking to myself, “There are no men in the school.” Of course there were men but they were very passive and/or very effeminate. The men that did not fall into that category still had something missing. It was hard to define but when I looked at a general cross section of men it was not represented in the FOF.

Many years ago an older woman in the school asked Robert why there were no mature men in the school. He said that the school was young and needed nurturing and that was why there were mature women but not men.
But as I said, my first reaction to this phenomenon was very strong, my internal comment to myself was, “There are no men in this school.”

Just to add – I had been in the Gurdjieff Foundation in N.Y. in the mid-60′s and there were many very accomplished, mature, professional men – men with confidence and experience who took the Work very seriously but didn’t need to give up any of their essential nature to participate in esoteric work. I suppose someone with more knowledge of psychology might have some insight into this.

46. Tim Campion - November 21, 2012

Linda,

The “official” Fellowship of Friends spokesperson revealing their identity and reporting rumors circulating in the Oregon House community? To what can we attribute this new era of glasnost? Have you had a change of heart (or mind, or body?)

It does strike me as odd that you would ask me if I can confirm the rumors. (I haven’t lived in Oregon House since the mid-1980s.)

Wouldn’t it be more expedient to simply ask your fellow members who were subject to the DEA raids? (Wasn’t a Fellowship of Friends parcel also targeted by the DEA action?)

I have asked Ryan McCarthy at the Appeal-Democrat if he can confirm the rumors, and will attempt to contact DEA Special Agent Brian Nehring.

I’ll let you know if I learn anything new.

47. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 21, 2012

Just watched the video linked at #42. Chilling. Made we wonder if some states might do what Rhodesia did in the sixties, and unilaterally declare independence. Sounds impossible doesn’t it? But here’s the other twist, if ALL the states did that they could maybe all wriggle out of the fiscal cliff we hear the USA is sleep walking towards. And there are plenty of American citizens who resent big government.

Nah – it’ll never happen.

If only the divine oracle of Rice’s Crossing Road could see the future, and let us know what is about to happen.🙂

48. fofblogmoderator - November 21, 2012

#39 is new

For what it’s worth, I In The Sky made reference to having had a girlfriend quite a few pages ago. I assumed back then that IITS was a male..

49. Tim Campion - November 21, 2012

Here is an update (just delivered) on the DEA raid in Oregon House:

I checked with the DEA and they said the case remains under investigation. Charges have not been dropped, they just haven’t filed charges, yet. The case is not over and charges are expected, at least at this point. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Rob Parsons
Appeal-Democrat

50. nigel - November 21, 2012

…..on this rather ‘stupid’ argument over the decidedly over-rated state of ‘non-identification’…..

My ‘take on the matter’, in which I solve, moment to moment, hour to hour, day to day, is…..

“Be yourself, as fiercely/gently as you can…..allow the Universe to touch/impress/impel you…..and stay Human with regard to All Your Actions and Interactions”

It works for me and I see no reason to change myself/the Universe/others…..Nigel.

51. nigel - November 21, 2012

…..again, on the subject of non-identification, which is not a state of ‘the emotions withering away from experience’, I offer this copy and paste…..

“When we regard ourselves in the many situations life brings, we find
that from first breath to last we are conditioned by external factors. Yet is that highest freedom left to us – to perfect ourselves within, so as that we shall come into harmony with the moral world order and attain peace with ourselves, no matter what obstacles may emerge. This is easily said and written, yet it is no more than a goal before us, to the achievement of which we must thouroughly dedicate ourselves. Every day challenges us to do what is to be done and expect whatever is possible.”

-Goethe-

52. ton2u - November 21, 2012

50 and 51
thank you Nigel

53. nigel - November 21, 2012

…..a little story about a Self in the Face of Fate – a big form of Work on Non-Identification, if you want to use/abuse/be confused with this term…..

Osho – Identification is Misery

Osho : “I am reminded of a Sufi story.”

A great emperor asks his wise men to give him a mantra of such a type that it can be used in any dangerous, fatal situation – Any Advice is always particular, and he wants a mantra, an advice, the essence of all wisdom, so that it can be used in any situation whatsoever, whenever there is danger. The wise men are very confused, very disturbed, and in a deep anguish. They cannot find such an essence of all wisdom.

Then they go to a Sufi mystic and he gives a piece of paper and says, ”This should not be opened unless there is Really danger! And then the advice will be there.” So the king put the piece of paper under the diamond of his ring. There are many moments when the danger approaches, but the Sufi has emphatically said, ”Unless you feel this is really the last hope – that nothing can be more dangerous – only then open it!” Many dangers come and go, and the king always feels this is not the last; something more can still happen.

Even death approaches, and the king is just on his deathbed, but still he cannot open it, because he remembers still more is possible. But his wise men say, ”Now please open it. We want to see what is there.” But the king says, ”The promise must be fulfilled. Really, now it is irrelevant what is there; the mantra has worked upon me. Since having this mantra with me, I have not felt any danger at all. Whatsoever the danger was, I have felt still more was possible, and I have remained THE HOST. I was never identified.”

Danger can never become the ultimate unless you are identified with it, and then anything can become the ultimate – just anything! Just anything ordinary can become the ultimate, and you are disturbed.

And the king said, ”Now I am not worried at all, whatsoever. The man is wise; the Sufi knows – I am not concerned about what he has written.”

Then, the king died without opening the ring. The moment he died, the first thing his wise men did was to open the ring. There was nothing; it was just a piece of paper… just a piece of paper – not a word, not a single word of advice. But the advice worked; the mantra worked.

So be centered in your host, and remember nothing is happening to you. All that is happening is just the guests, visitors; they will come and go. And it is good that they come and go; it enriches you, you become more mature.

But don’t follow them, don’t be involved with them. Don’t become one with them. Don’t fall in love and hate; don’t fall into identification. Remain the host, and then the ultimate happening happens. Then the ultimate explosion becomes possible. Once the witnessing soul is known, you will never be the same again. The whole world disappears and you are transmuted into a new dimension of bliss. Identification is misery;

Non-identification is bliss. To fall in love and hate with the guest is misery. To transcend them, and to be centered in oneself, is bliss.

Source: from book “That Art Thou” by Osho

54. Tim Campion - November 21, 2012

I in the sky,

To your knowledge does this exercise still stand? (Surely you would not act as a denying force for Influence C, at the risk of being asked to leave the school! It sounds like a far worse crime than smoking.)

Dear Students,

Although you may have read or heard something different, all students are reminded that the exercise of not spending unnecessary time with former members has not been changed. All members are also requested to refrain from reading and participating on what is known as the “Blog” and the “greater fellowship” or similar websites.

Robert stated: “This exercise comes from Influence C. You can support Influence C and not be a denying force to Influence C.”

The Fellowship of Friends

So if Influence C no longer considers the blog a denying force, perhaps we can promote this blog amongst Fellowship of Friends members and encourage them to participate? (After all, this blog cheerfully provides links to the Fellowship’s websites. Some reciprocity would be appropriate.) Any suggestions?

In my opinion, when a single voice appears to represent so many (nearly 1,500 members) the community of members and ex-members is not well-served. (And, frankly, I sometimes tire of talking to the same “20 or so” ex-members.)

55. Nevermind - November 21, 2012

“On the other hand…
If Nevermind actually turns out to be Greg, then I have baggage to process, because I know that Greg Goodwin used to ‘stalk’ this blog, copying posts (often daily) and criticizing them in what was often a cruel and vindictive and judgmental way on his own blog. He actually stalked certain bloggers, like surelyujest, for months at a time, lashing out at them at every opportunity. So, ‘knowing’ Greg only from those manifestations (I have never met him personally), which went on for years, I have this very strong aversion, which would color the way I would interact with him, were he to make himself know by his true name on this blog. Not to mention his history actually on this blog itself.”

Now that I know which Greg you are referring to I have to admit that my temples are pounding.

Some years ago there was an incident with that asshole at a Christmas party. I had brought my younger sister along to enjoy the evening with a number my friends and the usual crowd. These were Fourth Way people and this Greg was there. At some point the two of them, my sister and this loudmouthed drunken Greg, disappeared for a time during the evening. It turns out that he had seduced her somewhere out in the landscaping beyond the pool in the dark. An expensive piece of her jewelry, an heirloom from our mother, went missing and she ended up pregnant. Of course this Greg was long gone by the time of the discovery of pregnancy and no one even had his phone number. The host of the party only knew him by name. Plight to mischief, and not that there is any more shame in this per se, but in my sister’s region of the country and particularly in her neighborhood such a situation is very difficult, but the baby, which my sister would never dream of aborting for any reason or giving up for adoption because of religious reasons, turned out to be black.

That bastard really has something to look forward to if you know what I mean. A paternity suit is the minor repercussion.

One question though, how does one stalk a character only identified as surelyujest? Any address on this guy’s blog?

56. WhaleRider - November 21, 2012

The emotional jolt you feel is exactly what I am talking about when encountering a person with a borderline feature, such as we have probably encountered here with Greg, Elena, and probably i in the sky, and nevermind.

The feature shines through the mask.

Borderline features are defensive, highly manipulative, expert liars, and make it their preoccupation to push other people’s buttons, yet they have a hard time being alone. The ones I have encountered feel right at home in creating a negatively charged atmosphere around themselves.

You might even think of them as budding sociopaths, given the right circumstances of grooming their act.

IMO, it be appropriate to respond with equal or greater force with this spectrum of personality disorder.

I would not recommend giving nevermind any addresses or personal information about anyone, including yourself.

There’s something a little fishy in the story about Greg he told…someone he just happened to know…in amazing detail no less…imagine that…hmmm…and then this other new poster shows up, supporting nevermind….what timing…and accusing me of bullying?

57. Opus111 - November 21, 2012

The smell is getting stronger…

58. ton2u - November 21, 2012

whalerider… only a “little fishy” ??? better check your bullshit detector

59. Ames Gilbert - November 21, 2012

Hi, Nevermind (#133-55 or thereabouts),
sorry about your pounding head. If you were to ask for my advice, I’d say, “take several deep breaths and an aspirin”—but since you didn’t, I won’t. Still, you have my sympathy.

The Greg I’m referring to would take posts from this blog almost every day and then dissect them, often using crude and personal terms. He did this for many years. One day, someone who posted here under his/her real name was informed that he was doing this with his/her posts, so s/he went and had a look at his blog. S/he was quite upset, not only because the current abuse was so nasty, but because s/he also discovered that he had been following his/her posts for some months, doing this all the while; this creeped him/her out, and s/he wrote to me about it. Obviously there was nothing I could do, free speech and all that, but I said I would monitor the situation, and if s/he ever felt threatened, she should call the police and I’d back her up. Anyway, s/he stopped posting here, which was a pity. So, at that time, I noticed he was doing the same with ‘surelyujest’ (among others), only much nastier and more vituperative, and that is why I used that as an example. In my world, that is a species of ‘stalking’. Fortunately for the sanity of the internet, those particular pages vanished some time in the last year, so I can’t give you an address. And hopefully they were taken down because Greg chilled out and realized that investing so many hours over so many years was not yielding positive results—but who knows…

Not that you actually care, huh?

60. jomopinata - November 21, 2012

Ames,

Two thoughts about your post on the war on drugs:

1. The Justice Department sets federal law enforcement policy, not the President. Obama doesn’t run the Justice Department, the Attorney General does. The Attorney General does not vet his decisions about which federal law enforcement actions he plans to take with the President. The Attorney General is functionally independent. He or she may even order an investigation of the President.

2. The President swears an oath to see to it that the laws are faithfully executed. This includes laws that the President does not like or agree with. This is why positions in litigation involving the federal government don’t change even when the presidency changes parties. Obama was not elected King.

61. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

#55 Nevermind tells the blog a story. I like a story. But it had me a bit confused. Nevermind, is your sister a white person? Is this loud mouthed Greg character a white person? What’s the explanation for the baby being black, you introduce it in your story as a surprise. So does that mean it wasn’t this Greg character who was the father?

How’s the baby doing these days?

62. thirdlurker - November 22, 2012

Particle or wave?
Form or emptiness?
Identified or not identified?
How many posts before one is no longer lurking?

Hope this clears it up once and for all.

(this one’s for you ‘Miles’)http://youtu.be/c7wNM30R2WI

63. Fee fi fo fum - November 22, 2012

25 I in the sky, with 49 Tim C. responding

I in the sky (Linda, or whoever) – how come you didn’t inquire and check directly yourself? Why did you rely on Tim? It’s not an attitude about “life people”, is it? Or did you think Tim simply has his “ear to the ground” more than you and others in the Fellowship do?

64. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

Thanks thirdlurker, that clarified the butter for me quite nicely.

Here’s my favourite ‘Miles’ quote to be going on with:

7. Vena Says:

April 8, 2007 at 8:24 pm

Regarding storming the Bastille: Once, many years ago, while walking with Miles and several other students through the vineyard, I was shocked to hear him say, after someone referred to Robert being on Leonard da Vinci’s ladder, that it seemed more likely that Robert was on Marie Antoinette’s ladder.

65. James Mclemore - November 22, 2012

WhaleRider said

“Borderline features are defensive, highly manipulative, expert liars, and make it their preoccupation to push other people’s buttons,”

In my one experience they are also highly intuitive, maybe much more so than almost anyone you may have met. From my experience this intuitiveness appears to be for the most part unconscious; that is, they may not always be aware of the buttons being pushed, but if they get a reaction they will recognize it immediately and go for the jugular. They can drag up baggage you didn’t even know you had. On the other side of things, they can also charm the socks right off of you.

66. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

So after whalerider has been referring to borderline personality I looked it up on wikipedia. Interesting stuff. Then I thought about Nevermind’s sister in the story. She goes to a christmas party with her older brother, and has sex with a drunken loudmouth, but doesn’t bother to even get his phone number. The sister certainly seems to fit some of the criteria in the medical diagnostic lists. Only Nevermind would be able to fill out some more detail that would allow a clearer assessment. Things to look out for apparently are:

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image and affects, as well as marked impulsivity, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, excessive spending, eating disorders, binge eating, substance abuse, reckless driving). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats or self-injuring behavior such as cutting, interfering with the healing of scars or picking at oneself (excoriation).
6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness
8. Inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms

67. Fee fi fo fum - November 22, 2012

48 fof blog moderator

The problem with most of us using pseudonyms, myself included, is that the poster can fabricate any number of details about themselves. For example, readers were doubting the story that “Someone” posted, many pages ago. They put out that they are a man, but who knows if that detail was just a “red herring.”

People use pseudonyms here and on other blogs for a variety of reasons. For a completely open, public blog, such as the kind asking for health and medical advice, that makes sense: Would you want someone in god knows what city or country knowing who you are? But this blog is primarily for people who are in, or were in, the Fellowship of Friends. It’s not a “let’s discuss cults as a general subject”. It isn’t even a blog to discuss in any depth those spiritual paths that a former member might have tried or adhered to, although it’s nice to see references to them when they’re mentioned. It balances out the blog.

But unless someone posts under their real name (and there are people who post under a presumedly real name, but it is not their real name. It just isn’t an obvious fake name.), or they only thinly disguise themselves for cyber-protection reasons, we don’t know for sure who the alias is.

Gender and age and time in the FF are the main factors we all want to know when an alias posts. When it comes to gender, there are 3 basic ones, male and female and transgender. So if someone posts in a consistently dogmatic tone, as I in the sky has (IMO), then the first thing any poster is going to do is guess who that person is. We’ve assumed who the person is. In some ways, it’s not important to know, because some of us can tell that we’re listening to someone very, very mired in mind-controlled thinking. But each one of us is not just a disembodied cyber-voice. Almost all of us were in the FF. The person who we think is I in the sky has been in the FF almost from the very beginning, so every single one of us has encountered her in person, or at least, by reputation (for those in the outlying centers). I am not trying to “out” that person. Just emphasizing how natural it is to want to know whom one is talking to.

68. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

I don’t want to overstep any blog protocol, as I believe it lives because of the protocols that allow anonymity, but it struck me that the moderator sees my real email address, ie he has more information than the rest of the blog posters. So when he says that IITS referred to a girlfriend and therefore he assumed that IITS was a male, I think that hint might have more weight than it might appear to on the surface.

Here’s my take on it. IITS is male, and is the same poster as daily cardiac and howard carter, and may even be the 4th poster to the blog, who signed themselves “someone of over 30 years”. It suited this person fine that people had construed it to be Linda, as that was not correct. It made them feel safe and untouchable. But when Ames, who has great authority on this blog, changed from carefully using gender neutral terms to using she, he couldn’t resist the temptation to reveal that he is in fact a man. Ames in that post also made reference to the fact that the FoF has not yet produced the number of conscious beings that Burton had predicted. IITS taunted Ames with the fact that he couldn’t tell what colour shirt he was wearing (blue is my guess by the way “I”) and therefore couldn’t know what was going on at FoF HQ with respect to consciousness being achieved by students.

Now I concede it’s possible that “I” is Linda, and she lied about being a man. But there is also the moderator’s voice now lending it’s weight to the “I” is a man theory. And I know this will be a bit controversial, but I can’t believe Linda is as unintelligent as “I” reveals himself to be on the blog. (moon theory, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, verification and other things all seem to bamboozle “I” completely)

Here’s where I could sign off with some pseudo mystical nonsense about the wisdom of not knowing and uncertainty, if I had such a quote at my fingertips. But I don’t. So I’ll just end with

but I could be wrong

69. Nevermind - November 22, 2012

65. James Mclemore
WhaleRider said

‘Borderline features are defensive, highly manipulative, expert liars, and make it their preoccupation to push other people’s buttons,’

“In my one experience they are also highly intuitive, maybe much more so than almost anyone you may have met. From my experience this intuitiveness appears to be for the most part unconscious; that is, they may not always be aware of the buttons being pushed, but if they get a reaction they will recognize it immediately and go for the jugular. They can drag up baggage you didn’t even know you had. On the other side of things, they can also charm the socks right off of you.”

“…they can also charm the socks right off of you.”

So winning people possessing any persuasiveness, panache, elegance or star quality, they are all likely borderline personality sociopaths? Is this what accounts for the fact that everyone wants to bed them, pay them money to appear here and there, vote for them, invite them to their parties and be their friend? Meanwhile the “normal” losers who wouldn’t get noticed if they walked past one another in the middle of an empty desert justify their mediocrity and lack of general appeal by claiming that their social disability in life, the reason they can’t buy a date or a decent set of circumstances, is that they are not as resourceful as the bedeviled borderline-sociopaths with their unfair supernatural powers of persuasion.

Why not just accuse anyone with a bit of glamour, luck or charisma of witchcraft?

Exactly how do the commonly fairly plain or even unpleasant looking people, those wallflowers who take one look in the mirror and then put their heads down early in life and hardly look up again, explain away those born good looking and beautiful? Are those blessed with good looks also somehow psychologically defective and therefore unfairly cursed with an abnormally decreased sense of decency?

The plain manila paper wrappers of human mediocrity are simply using this pseudo-science of modern psychology to explain away their justified sense of inferiority. You are not clever and brilliant because you are have an average IQ. You are not rich because you have no ambition or advanced marketable skills and talent. You are popular because you are boring and bitter. You are not getting laid because you are ugly and uninspiring. Those getting everything and having an unusual highball ride on the fast rails of life are not mentally ill, you idiots, they are just better than you. It’s the losers complaining on an internet blog about their crummy and tragic fate in life that are the sick and defective manipulators.

70. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

Fee Fi Fo Fum says “Gender and age and time in the FF are the main factors we all want to know when an alias posts.”

OK.

Male 59 1978-1989

71. Nevermind - November 22, 2012

59. Ames Gilbert

“…but I said I would monitor the situation, and if s/he ever felt threatened, she should call the police and I’d back her up.”

You seem to be a compelled champion against the many injustices in the world.

72. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

#69 Nevermind reminds me of someone, and I just saw who.

Carlos Castaneda

73. James Mclemore - November 22, 2012

69. Nevermind

I have no clue as to what you are ranting about. My post had to do with an old dear friend whom I had traveled across country to try to help. She was broke, had major problems with her heart and was partially paralyzed, and as I was soon to find out, quite extensive emotional problems. I spent every day for about a year and a half trying my best to care for her and keep her out of a nursing home.
From what I could ascertain from therapists I spoke to, information on the internet and books I read, she did seem to have Borderline Personality Disorder.
I also caught occasional glimpses of a very beautiful and innocent but very scared child deep down inside. I came to later understand that child had probably been molested at a very young age by her father.

Again, I have no idea what you are alluding to or talking about. My post was about an experience I personally had with an old friend of mine..

74. Fee fi fo fum - November 22, 2012

68 Shard,

Of course, their email account could be something gender-neutral but personally inspiring, like, ILoveTheSequence, or GonnaBeANumber5SomeLifeTime

75. Ames Gilbert - November 22, 2012

Nevermind (#133-71 or thereabouts),
someone asked me for advice/reassurance/help. I offered to act as an independent witness in case something further happened (blogs are easily altered or removed, though this not always without trace—see: Wayback Machine, Google Cache, and others). That was easily within my power.
What would you have done or not done?

76. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 22, 2012

Regarding entheogens and religious/spiritual experience:
Here is an interesting read:
The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross
A study of the nature and origins of Christianity within the fertility cults of the ancient Near East
by John M. Allegro
An abridged pdf (just under a Mb) here:
http://tinyurl.com/cyjtxez

77. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 22, 2012

An alternative ‘Sacred Mushroom and the Cross’ pdf site, should that fail:
http://tinyurl.com/cndp2xz

78. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 22, 2012

About the author, John M. Allegro::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M._Allegro

79. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 22, 2012
80. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 22, 2012

Author/book website:
http://tinyurl.com/bumejtx

81. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 22, 2012

Critical review of ‘Sacred Mushroom and the Cross’:
American Anthropologist
Volume 73, Issue 6
(December 1971; pages 1369–1370)
Article first published online: 28 OCT 2009
http://tinyurl.com/d6aqexo

82. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 22, 2012

Quote from that last citation:
“Briefly the argument is as follows. The
origin of religion is to be found in fertility
cults, which are a response to man’s dependence
on nature. Sexual intercourse is the
basis of creation, therefore God is the
“mighty penis in the sky” and rain is “more
abundant kind of spermatozoa.” Ritual is
the control of fertility, regulating the very
conditions of life. The control of the
creative act becomes the attempt to know
anc! gain the wisdom of God in the later
religions of the Near East. The accumulated
ritual knowledge is kept secret by cultists
since God can be reached by the initiate
through hallucinogenic drugs, in this case the
mushroom (Amanita Muscaria). The mushroom
is God and God is copulation. The
mushroom can stand for the male/female
genitals, copulation, sperm, and ejaculation.
It is the “son of God,” since everything
about the mushroom (its growth, appearance,
and properties) is “sexual.” Just as
God is the sexual act, so the mushroom is
the representative of God on earth. The
poison of the mushroom induces states in
which men momentarily reach and experience
the wisdom of God. Taking the mushroom
is being with God: the desire to
control the source of fertility becomes the
urge to know God in the more sophisticated
religions.”

83. Just the Facts Ma'am - November 22, 2012

45. Ames Gilbert:
‘and that if Burton wants the body of her husband or boyfriend for his sexual gratification, her duty and obligation is encourage the man ‘for the sake of his spiritual evolution’, to ‘transform her suffering’ and to wall off the festering wounds.’

Speaking of emasculation: Not only is above true, but also Burton reserves the right and privilege to preempt the consummation of marriage between heterosexuals by having the groom have sexual relations with ‘Him’ (Robert Earl Burton) first before having sexual relations with the new wife.

There are actual real world examples that that happened.

84. Associated Press - November 22, 2012

60. jomopinata
Re: Justice Department/Attorney General/President
And, if I am not mistaken, Attorney General appointment must pass Congress for approval, so, to some extent, insuring Attorney General is not in President’s pocket.

85. nigel - November 22, 2012

56. Whale Rider (and related posts by other bloggers)…..

Clara Elena Haven Says:

May 5, 2007 at 6:22 pm

Reflections on The Fellowship of Friends No. 1

I wish to spend sometime simply trying to write out a list of titles that seem relevant to reflect on. I would appreciate it if others suggest titles or areas that I have not looked at that also seem relevant. Participation is appreciated. I will slowly fill in under each title things that seem relevant that have been posted in other blogs or are part of Fellowship published material.

During this first month I will probably renew the presentation of titles every week, then, as we settle into a structure that seems comprehensible enough, maybe it will get corrected once a month.

If you wish to participate in this reflection on the Fellowship of Friends, it would be appreciated if you could choose one of the following subjects as title of your input so that the rest of us can be more clear about the area you are trying to address. You may also suggest the addition of other areas not presented here that you find relevant.

It is assumed that everything presented here is the subjective view of the people writing in it. Each one takes responsibility for what he/she says. It would be appreciated if people would use at least half their name.

1. The Fellowship of Friends
History
The Arc
Other aims
Art
Legitimacy
Relevant information by other authors

1a. Money in the Fellowship of Friends
Relevant information by other authors

2. The Teacher
“Known” biography
The Man, the King, the Priest.
Relevant information by other authors

2a. The Ministers
Relevant information by other authors

3. The Inner Circle
a. At Isis
b. In Centers
Relevant information by other authors

4. The Students
a. At Isis
b. In Centers
Relevant information by other authors
c. Ex-students

5. Theory and Practice
Three lines of work
“Biological” families
Consciousness without functions
The lower Self, the king of Clubs, False personality
Feminine Dominance
The King of Hearts
The exercises
Living in Renaissance, Apollo, Isis.
Living in Centers
Self Remembering, Presence.
Sexuality
Good householder
Relevant information by other authors

6. History of legal conflicts

7. The Human or Inhuman aspects of the Fellowship of Friends (Different cases)
Health.
Indoctrination
Idolatry
Coercion of speech.
Control and omission of information
Mental and emotional “programming”
Exploitation of human resources.
Use and abuse of individuals
Inconsiderateness
Control of participation
Privileges of a few.
Relevant information by other authors

8. Personal testimonies.

9. Rough Statistics
Total number of students
Students in the Fellowship as of may, 2007
Ex-students as of May, 2007
Suicides
People that had to look for “Professional” help to overcome the traumatic experience of being a student of the Fellowship of Friends.
Relevant information by other authors

I CAN SEE WHAT WHALE RIDER MEANS THAT BORDERLINE PERSONALITIES ARE MANIPULATIVE!!!!!…..NIGEL

86. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

#84 Associated Press Attorney General versus President.

It would also seem likely that a President facing a flagging economy, trillion dollar debt crisis, countries like Korean and Iran developing Atomic bombs and deep resentment of his plans to reform the health system, would not wish to annoy the republican controlled section of the legislature by pushing hard on the marijuana question. Conservative elements in the USA have been subjected to a concerted propaganda effort for decades that tells them that marijuana is a gateway drug that leads in most cases to heroin addiction, is fundamentally immoral and used by horrible hoodie wearing gangs who scare them when they leave their cars in the shopping mall. He may figure that pretty well anyone who wants to smoke it can currently get hold of it (the war on drugs has been an abject failure) so why pick a fight on that, when there are far more important issues that he would prefer to battle the conservatives over.

Shame though, especially in a country that constantly bores the rest of the world with its claim to represent individual freedom.

87. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

Nevermind at 132-23 8 nov 2012 you posted these words:

“In a true state of conscience all the wrongs, stupidities, mistakes and accomplishments of the past are present in the awareness in the here and now so that the person in question knows exactly who he is by virtue of remembering all his or her actions over the course of his life.”

Is that something you have experienced yourself?

88. Bares Reposting - November 22, 2012

People, please, never mind Nevermind, because that is ‘nether mind.’ Like The Netherlands, which has a significant amount of territory below sea level; nether mind has a significant amount of territory below ‘C’ level,

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Tim, about and around the post you cited from FoFblog part 23:
Pensate un attimo October 24, 2007 at 7:58 am
Reading:
‘This morning message from ‘the teacher’:. . .’
you can find posts from one ‘Graduates.’
This to my knowledge and memory was Greg G.

BTW, Pensate un attimo may translate: Think for a moment.
Stop having others think for you. Wake up.

89. ton2u - November 22, 2012

in the spirit of thanksgiving — a little levity:

[audio src="http://www.maxusability.com/test/Psychiatric_Office_Answering_Machine.mp3" /]

90. Tim Campion - November 22, 2012

Bares Reposting,

You’re right. He’s a finalist for the blog’s Multiple Personality Award.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

91. I in the sky - November 22, 2012

Tim – 54:

I’m pretty sure the second part of that quote is bogus. I have not encountered it or ever heard it referenced. I have also not ever encountered a message directed to students signed “Fellowship of Friends.” And the tone of it does not fit anything Robert would compose in my opinion.

The first part is accurate regarding not socializing with former students; that’s still an exercise although people relate to it differently these days out of necessity. In the past when someone would leave they would simply move away and one would not see them again. More recently those who owned homes would stay. It’s also possible to be able to have an income and work from a computer today. That was not an option in the past. So now there are many instances where students and former students cross paths. And while the majority of students adhere to the exercise to some degree, there are those who do not for one reason or another. There are also several couples with one in and one out so that further blurs the lines of socializing.

Actually, in spite of your beliefs to the contrary (that I’m on official FoF business) I’ve always been a reluctant participant to the blog. As someone who sees the hand of fate in such matters I don’t have a strong compulsion to be here.

I don’t think my words here are the necessary or crucial aid that would cause someone to join the FoF or stay in it, just like I don’t think any previous post by the long time regulars have prevented anyone from joining or have caused anyone to leave. The blog is going on 7 years old now and people are joining at the same rate as in some years previous to the blog. This year alone 19 have re-joined. In the past a typical year would see one or two individuals re-join. And anyone who has left from reading the blog undoubtedly was already out in spirit anyway.

So, for me it always comes down to time. There is usually some project or “duty of the moment” that vies with the blog for my limited time. If I were “on a mission” things would be different. Truth is I’m much closer to my last post than my first one.

92. I in the sky - November 22, 2012

Shard – 68:

Maroon.

93. nigel - November 22, 2012

“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. ”

-Plato –

(For me, being in the light is Being Oneself in the Role One Plays in the Great Scheme of Life – and, yes, I do believe there are Higher Forces that guide the PLAY – NOT JUST THE CULT OF THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS AND BURTON – and, probably, not even them, considering the amount of evil perpetrated in it. The dark is the lies, greed and posing that is soaked into the FOF psyche. This blog is an attempt to illuminate – TO BRING LIGHT!!!!!…..Nigel)

94. nigel - November 22, 2012

“Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. ”

-Plato –

(C’mon, Burton – get “I in the Sky” to stop the blog affecting the ‘fringe-on-the-way-out’ of the Fellowship of Friends…..Nigel)

95. nigel - November 22, 2012

And here is one, determinedly fired in “I in the Sky”s direction…..

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. ”

-Plato –

96. brucelevy - November 22, 2012

91. I in the sky

Re: “Robert stated: “This exercise comes from Influence C. You can support Influence C and not be a denying force to Influence C.”

Once again you don’t know what you’re talking about (but that never stops you). RB used to say stuff like that all the time when I was in, and I heard it first hand, so bite me.

97. brucelevy - November 22, 2012

And yes, Head up the Ass does sound like Cardiac.

98. I in the sky - November 22, 2012

“RB used to say stuff like that all the time when I was in…”

When was that? 81 or 82?

99. I in the sky - November 22, 2012

Just to clear matters up here is the part of Tim’s supposed FoF quote in #54 that I suggested was likely to be fabricated:

“All members are also requested to refrain from reading and participating on what is known as the “Blog” and the “greater fellowship” or similar websites.”

The sentence Bruce singled out –

“Robert stated: “This exercise comes from Influence C. You can support Influence C and not be a denying force to Influence C.”

In spirit he could have said this but the phrasing is rather clumsy and evokes a sense of redundancy.

100. ton2u - November 22, 2012

if not redundant… “In general it may be said that the more mystifying the teachings the stronger their appeal. After all it is beyond reason and should appeal only to the heart…. Sociologists have observed that, failure of prediction results in quite the opposite effect on believers. Contrary to what one would expect it may cause a rally amongst members. Failure is blamed on a misunderstanding, or a faux pas by members. To counteract ridicule they tend to stick together more than ever.”

http://wichm.home.xs4all.nl/psymove.html

101. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 22, 2012

“92. I in the sky – November 22, 2012
Shard – 68:

Maroon.”

suits you, sir!

102. brucelevy - November 23, 2012

98. I in the sky

Up to 85.

103. brucelevy - November 23, 2012

99. I in the sky

You’re a know-nothing, narcissistic asshole who believes his own bull shit.

104. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 23, 2012

oi! “I in the sky”

something for the weekend, sir?

105. WhaleRider - November 23, 2012

Nevermind:
“You are not clever and brilliant because you are have an average IQ. You are not rich because you have no ambition or advanced marketable skills and talent. You are popular because you are boring and bitter. You are not getting laid because you are ugly and uninspiring. Those getting everything and having an unusual highball ride on the fast rails of life are not mentally ill, you idiots, they are just better than you. It’s the losers complaining on an internet blog about their crummy and tragic fate in life that are the sick and defective manipulators.”

James:
“I also caught occasional glimpses of a very beautiful and innocent but very scared child deep down inside.”

I know what you mean. Often that child lashes out…

106. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 23, 2012

browsing through the glittering jewels and toxic turds that constitute the earliest pages of this blog I happened across this signed post on page 7 by a Russian student, that stood out above the noise:

6. Rita Penfold Says:

April 20, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Dear All,
Yesterday I’ve received a message from my close friend Kosta Dmitriev from St.Petersburg, which he sent to the students in Russia.
I thought that it was quite funny (if it wasn’t sad), and asked Kosta if I could translate it and post it on the blog, to which he agreed. If you have any questions, you’re free to ask Kosta directly, his email address is:shantiway@yahoo.com
To those who don’t know Kosta personally, I am pleased to tell that he is one of those handsome young Russian men who rejected Robert’s advances.
———————————————-
Dear friends,
Thank you very much for the time we spent together, it was wonderful.
As many before me, I decided to leave the school when I discovered the details of sexual ‘adventures’ of the teacher.
Of course, as everybody else in the school, I knew that Robert is a homosexual. So what? So many great people and even our friends were and are homosexuals, bi-sexuals, transvestites – nobody is shocked by this nowadays. Especially among the different kinds of ‘spiritual seekers’, where there are always many, let’s say, exotically oriented people. That’s not the case, as me and my wife too, sometimes doing such things, that… let’s not talk about it.
Back to business, here are the results of my observations and investigations.
The school as organisation and its exercises are intended to:
1.Attract sponsorship for the very expensive and exquisite erotic games of Robert and Co. Teaching payments are spent on expensive clothes, often made to order for the boys and the entourage; original Viagra pills which cost $50 per tablet (completely identical ones in India cost $0.5). Air tickets and 5-star hotels for the harem; fake passports which are bought from Italian mafia, for the especially treasured lovers from Russia, and of course, for the new centres in developing countries, where new ‘members’ (‘member’ in Russian is the same word for penis – Rita) are so cheap. Also, 5-figure sums for the lawyers and parents of some of the ‘woken up’ underage victims of the teacher’s ‘mischievous’ activities.
2.Cover up the very fact that those orgies are taken place just before and after the meetings and are the main interest of the teacher in his school and the reason for its existence.
The cover-up is necessary in order to prevent students from thinking about how the teacher was using his mouth just before he kisses their foreheads. Many wouldn’t like to think about it at all. Of course, there will always be those who will work with acceptance and continue to be present to any sort of madness. But most students would leave the school to be present elsewhere.
Robert is interested only in young men, only straight (otherwise it’s not such fun to ‘get’ them), usually in financial need, preferably spiritually unripe and, what’s called in Russia, ‘without a King in the head’, and with high level of conformity of behaviour. That’s it.
Yes, my friends, it’s all about ‘members, members and more members’. Preferably big in size and several at the time. But if only that was all…
The stories of the participants are beyond even the most perverse sexual imagination.
One student has almost chocked on the teacher’s penis while giving him a blowjob. He had to be rescued by his fellow orgy-participants from the unstoppable in his sexual urge teacher.
The ‘height’ of those stories is the ‘Fountain of Eternal Youth’. What do you think that would mean? Very simple. Students are pissing in the teacher’s mouth. One at the time, or all together. I asked about the next, you know, logical step… They said – yes! That step has been taken. Sometimes all would get smeared. And why? You won’t believe… Gurjieff ordered from the astral plane!!! In order to be more present!
It’s understandable that such moments of presence will never be forgotten. You’ll be in the third state without any effort, and maybe even beyond third state, as many afterwards live their lives, wearing ‘horse faces’ forever.
You will ask me, what makes these people do this?
It’s very simple, really: everybody does it, they say. It’s accepted behaviour. You know about ‘norms of group behaviour in the totalitarian sects’.
Strangely, but many continue to interpret what happened to them in terms of the enlightenment. As a special, mystical experience of presence, which they would not get anywhere else. And, at the same time, they hate Robert for what he’s done to them and cherish plans for revenge (usually blackmail of some kind). It’s understandable, because otherwise you’d have to admit that you’ve been simply ….. .
Some invested too much in the school, suffered, paid; some simply have nowhere else to go. Most students simply don’t know many things, despite the fact that all information is published on the Internet. And, except for the ‘special’ details, it’s known to the ‘old’ students. I didn’t know the details myself, so I was hoping that Robert’s ‘antics’ were simply ‘free love’ with a bit of tantra. But, according to the participants, the whole thing is completely rotten and Robert is a typical ‘post-traumatic psychopath’. Of course, you can continue as if it wasn’t true, but then you’ll have to pay him, and that is a question of moral standards which, as any case where one is trading one’s conscience, is deeply personal. For me, it’s simply too much. It’s your business now, think for yourselves.
I wish you with all my heart to wake up before, and not during, the time when you are asked to piss someone in the mouth, given the reason of working on the 3rd line of work.
Thank you. You are welcomed any time to call or to write me.
Kosta

107. WhaleRider - November 23, 2012

Have you seen this piece on shame by Brene Brown?

Her TED talk on vulnerability is pretty awesome, too.

“Without vulnerability, there is no connection. Without connection, there is no meaning to life. Shame is what keeps us from being vulnerable.”

108. WhaleRider - November 23, 2012

Apparently it wouldn’t embed, so here’s the link to the 10 minute TED talk. From there you can link to her piece on vulnerability.

What is remarkable to me, is that as a researcher, she let her data guide her to the truth.

109. nigel - November 23, 2012

107/108 Whale Rider

…..is this along similar lines?…..Nigel

An interview with Dusty Miller, author of “Stop Running from Love.”

Your introduction talks about various types of “distancers.” Can you talk about what a distancer is, and what it is about intimacy they fear?

I generally see three basic styles of distancing. There is the Disappearing Distancer, the person who avoids getting into intimate relationships, although he or she may date casually. This person tends to see closeness as a trap, and is often more conscious of fearing commitment or fearing that they will be hurt by the vulnerability that intimacy requires.

The next category is the Defended Distancer. This category is pretty crowded! The Defended Distancer does the intimacy tango, getting close to someone and then pulling away. He or she may keep a partner at arm’s length by turning everything into a joke, or being a control freak, or abruptly shutting down emotionally or sexually. The Defended Distancer may use drugs or alcohol or food or any other addiction to keep a wall between self and partner.

Finally, there’s the Distracted Distancer who uses work, family, friends, and a variety of activities to avoid really letting his or her partner in. The Distracted Distancer is the hardest to spot because the swirl of activity can be so easily justified. “I don’t have time for a couple’s night every week because of my job, the kids, the soccer team, etc.”

There seem to be a lot of different types of distancers. Do you think, to some degree we all have a certain amount of fear of close relationships?

To some extent, we all share some basic fear of vulnerability in relationship. What qualifies someone to identify as a distancer is the repeated failure to achieve the relational satisfaction that is evident in couples who enjoy genuine contentment in their life together. We distancers know, consciously or not, that we’re missing out on something. And, of course, there are some of us who have had partners point out that we’re not fully present in our couple! Even though we may not have previously known there was a name for us, we quickly recognize ourselves as distancers once we become aware of the various distancing styles and tactics.

(there is more on this site…..n.)

110. nigel - November 23, 2012

This should ‘stir up’ some comments…..Nigel

“The Meaning of Same-Sex Attraction”
By Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.

In this paper taken from an upcoming book, the author describes his concept of same-sex attractions as a reparative drive.

Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.
During twenty years of clinical work with ego-dystonic homosexually oriented men, I have come to see homosexual enactment as a form of “reparation.” The concept of reparative drive has been well-established within the psychoanalytic literature; in our application, the person is attempting to “repair” unmet same-sex affective needs (attention, affection and approval) as well as gender-identification deficits (Nicolosi, 1991, 1993) through homoerotic behavior.

Homosexual enactment temporarily relieves the stressful self-states that we repeatedly find in our SSA clients: most particularly, shame, conflicted assertion, the depressive mood that I call the “Grey Zone,” and the social posture of the False Self.

For my clients, homosexual enactment does not represent their personal intentions, will or self-identity, and it is in violation of their aspirations and life goals. Gay life is unsatisfying to them, so they enter therapy in the hope of reducing their unwanted attractions and developing their heterosexual potential.

Homosexual acting-out, for these men, is an attempt at restoring psychic equilibrium in order to maintain the integrity of the self-structure. Through homosexual enactment, they unconsciously seek to attain a self-state of authenticity, assertion, autonomy, and gender-relatedness, but they have found that it eventually brings them none of those things-only a nagging feeling of inauthenticity, and still deeper discouragement.

Homosexual Enactment as Reparation of Blocked Assertion

As our clients begin to live more authentically, they discover that they have a growing ability to be assertive. Living in an authentic self-state brings a person freedom, self-possession, and healthy social relatedness. At first, they may confuse assertion with childish acting-out. Acting-out is troublesome behavior, an old maladaptive way-of-being in the world. But healthy assertion is quite different: it forms the foundation of authentic relationships and direct communication. It is a positive, adaptive medium for learning new skills and new ways of being, and involves intentionality and responsibility. Assertive behaviors help fulfill male identification needs, and propel the client toward mastery of interpersonal conflicts, especially those that repeatedly arise with other men.

Growth in assertion means that the client will begin to experiment with new behaviors (sometimes, paradoxically, even homosexual behaviors). On the other hand, assertion may take the opposite form, meaning a deliberate inhibitory response– the willful choice to refrain from acting out sexually with other men.

(it continues…..n.)

111. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 23, 2012

#108 Brene Brown’s talk.
Wow, that was powerful. I started off finding her just a bit difficult to listen to, but as the talk progressed she became more and more affecting, till by the end I just wanted to give her a big hug and say “thanks”

112. ton2u - November 23, 2012

106 re: kosta’s letter —
when i was a ‘member’ of ‘the harem’ blowjob bob was only interested in sucking cock… apparently over the years he ‘progressed’ to orgies, yellow showers, and cleveland steamers…. that’s nice bobby, at least this shows you ‘evolved.’
yuck!

113. Nevermind - November 23, 2012

“How can a wrong way be recognized?” asked somebody.
“How can it be recognized?” said Gurdjieff “It is impossible to recognize a wrong way without knowing the right way. This means that it is no use troubling oneself how to recognize a wrong way. One must think of how to find the right way.”

The above quote was discovered on a Fellowship of Friends related web page. The page shamelessly solicits for new recruits for the Fellowship of Friends cult by describing the path traversed by of one of the Fellowship’s “seekers” as he is compelled about by his emotional restlessness, by his identification with the possibility of higher consciousness.

Just a quick note to such people:

A false prophet who wants to suck your dick is definitely the wrong way.

It is amazing what people will fail to comprehend when they do not understand the right way.

It’s necessary to seriously examine the properties of rising and falling possibilities. For one thing the intrigued, excited and fascinated aspect of personality that is typically interested in higher consciousness is definitely not higher consciousness itself nor will such an aspect of personality reliably lead the adventurer to higher consciousness. Eagerness toward the possibility of higher consciousness is not a reliable precursor to discovering that desired state or those who possess it. In fact, when the seeker of higher consciousness is too enthusiastic it is almost a certain indication that the individual in question is a doubtful candidate for such an endowment.

This is what happens to cult members of the Fellowship of Friends, they are “higher consciousness” lunatics and end up in a lifelong state of fascination with the ideal, with the promise of, with their identification with, higher consciousness. Just like all fervent religious believers the Fellowship of Friends fanatics mistake emotional and mental exhilaration itself for something that when actually found is repelled by such base enthusiasm.

Predictions about the end of the world, signs and portents delivered by license plates, the ubiquitous formatory drone of classical music, etc., etc., etc. is the wrong way.

114. nigel - November 23, 2012

(This should throw Some Light – tee-hee – on the matter…..note the virtues needed to attain said consciousness, of which Burton has zilch…..Nigel)

Higher consciousness

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“Higher consciousness, also called Super consciousness (Yoga), objective consciousness (Gurdjieff), Buddhic consciousness (Theosophy), Cosmic consciousness, God-consciousness (Islam, Hinduism), and Christ consciousness (New Thought), Collective consciousness (Philosophy), are expressions used in various spiritual and intellectual traditions to denote the consciousness of a human being who has reached a higher level of development and who has come to know reality as it is (Sanskrit: Yatha bhuta). It also refers to the awareness or knowledge of an ‘ultimate reality’ which traditional theistic religion has named God and which Gautama Buddha referred to as the unconditioned element. Evolution in this sense is not that which occurs by natural selection over generations of human reproduction but evolution brought about by the application of spiritual knowledge to the conduct of human life, and of the refinement of the mind brought about by spiritual practices. Through the application of such knowledge (traditionally the preserve of the world’s great religions) to practical self-management, the awakening and development of faculties dormant in the ordinary human being is achieved. These faculties are aroused by and developed in conjunction with certain virtues such as lucidity, patience, kindness, truthfulness, humility, and forgiveness towards one’s fellow man – qualities without which, according to the traditional teachings, higher consciousness is not possible.”

115. nigel - November 23, 2012

NEE & the ‘40,000 blowjobs’

When we launched the satirical ‘40,000 blowjobs’ campaign, we were a political movement called ‘NEE’. The campaign was a stab at the political climate that was filled with false promises and was aimed at raising political awareness, stimulating people to be more critical and active in demanding politicans in general to practice what they preach. The campaign was originally intended only for Belgium only, as it was a direct parody on other Belgian parties who were making ridiculous promises (such as 400,000 new jobs if they would get elected), but it immediately took off internationally and became an action that raised political awareness worldwide.

The campaign ran in the form of a website on which Tania Derveaux (who was our leading senate candidate at that moment) promised 40,000 blowjobs to her voters, allowing people to register on the website to be among the lucky ones. The website quickly became even more popular than whitehouse.gov and was all over the media worldwide.

116. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 23, 2012

I would challenge anybody to show this to be true yet.

“the consciousness of a human being who has reached a higher level of development and who has come to know reality as it is”

We are all subjective, and those who think they know reality as it is, are deluded.

117. nigel - November 23, 2012

…..oh, dear – more controversy…..Nigel

Yoga Linked to Sexual Perversion

Kira Braun, Yahoo! Contributor Network

“Precisely what kind of poses are yoga gurus into these days? Well, it’s not the lion pose, friends. Yoga’s reputation may not recover since the founder of the style Anusara, John Friend, was forced into a personal retreat after accused of inappropriate sexual encounters with a student. Mr. Friend was well-versed in mantras of innocent poses aimed at nurturing a yoga image of love and peace. However, informers close to the situation were not surprised at the disgrace; the partying lifestyle has apparently been a part of Mr. Friend’s SOP for a good long time. Although this may be true, most of his followers had no idea, and they are presently recuperating from disappointment.

Yoga’s Bad Reputation

This is not news, however. Unbeknownst to most, Yoga is satiated with the potential for sexual arousal. According to New York Times reporter William J Broad, yoga disciples have been duped. Why would an “exercise” style that is supposed to relieve stress and produce a state of tranquility routinely bring about philandering instead? That’s right — philandering. Modern yoga devotees usually don’t realize that for decades yoga expert after yoga expert has been condemned for inappropriate sexual behavior. Broad says it’s because yoga was designed to produce it.

The popular pastime never began with decent intent; Yoga was designed for orgies. The discipline began as a sex cult, a fact that surprises many who begin the regimen for spiritual transcension. A stroll through history gives answers on why the practice is frequently connected with sex scandal.

Medieval introspecters sought to fuse the male and female aspects of the cosmos into a state of bliss. These groups were the Tantra cults of India. The ceremonies of Tantra were filled with sexuality, including group sex. Prostitutes were regularly welcomed into the rituals, and vigorous intercourse was encouraged. The Tantra method was far less concerned with the noble qualities of spiritual wholeness and overall wellness than it was with stimulating, rapturous bliss. The deep breathing techniques and various poses were the blue-print for intimate ecstasy. The commonly-used Hatha yoga of today began as a branch of Tantra. Tantra and Hatha long ago developed bad reputations. Truth be known, the spiritual ploy for the invention of yoga was a cover for sexual deviance. Enthusiasts of the early 20th century tried to clean it up by neglecting to inform the public of its correct origins and by promoting it as a fitness program.”

118. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 23, 2012

#117 Yep more difficulties for spiritual aspirants.

It seems to me that the main problem in the Yoga case is that people were not given a clear idea before joining a group that sex was part of the deal. Like the obvious good sense of clear ingredient labeling in food and shampoo, I see no problem with tantric yoga if that’s what you wanted. It all sounds rather fun in itself, but not when the leader is taking advantage of unwitting students, that is plain wrong.

119. Ames Gilbert - November 23, 2012

Yoga’s Bad Reputation . . .
Not my experience! I taught myself some hatha yoga moves when I was 17, and ten years later bought Richard Hittleman’s book with easy routines, because it was just the basics, and nicely illustrated. I’ve pretty much been doing that ever since, usually every other day at the end of my gym routine. All it’s ever been for me is a reliable form of relaxation. If I do it at home, I sometimes meditate for half an hour or so at the end. I’ve never looked for, expected, or experienced anything unusual as far as sex energy goes, I just go to a ‘quiet place’ and relax, mentally and physically. Of course I’ve heard of ‘tantric yoga’, even went on a course with my wife (very tame in the classroom, believe me, and the instructors were a stable couple), but there was no overlap between that and my usual yoga experiences. Mileage for others evidently varies.

There are disparate theories about the origins of yoga, the author latches on to just one of them. Who knows the actual history?

IMO, what is much more important is to watch what happens when someone sets themselves up as a ‘Teacher’ and ‘accepts Students’, no matter what the actual discipline, without either party knowing themselves well enough to avoid the traps of ego and pitfalls of ‘transference’. Uncritical admiration/adoration by the followers is as dangerous as the leader using the group of followers as a ‘dating pool’ or worse. And in the case of the Fellowship of Friends, of course, this has been taken to an extreme, where the leader is revered as a god by his followers, and they give him free reign to prey upon their bodies, minds and wallets without limit.

120. WhaleRider - November 23, 2012

Participants Needed For New Study

Orifice House, CA (USA)-The Center for the Study and Prevention of Clergy Abuse is asking for volunteers for new ground breaking research into the emerging field of Sexually Transmitted Mental Illnesses or STMI’s.

Willing participants must:

a) be at least age 17 years or older,

b) must have had or be currently having multiple sexual relations with your predatory pastor, priest, cult leader, or yoga teacher,

c) have no prior knowledge of themselves,

d) and suffer from any one or all of the following conditions: ongoing feelings of depression, depersonalization, dissociation, anxiety, panic attacks, self-deprecation, insomnia, substance abuse, alcohol abuse, prescription drug abuse, domestic violence, home sickness, chronic irritability, workaholism, hyper-vigilance, loss of memory, sexual dysfunction, euphoria, delusions of grandeur, fear of poverty, social isolation, suicidal ideation, fear of impending doom, chronic mood swings and/or a complete lack of empathy for your peers.

Volunteers must be willing to disclose the following personal information:

a) any religious upbringing or lack thereof,

b) any promises of immortality or a green card made by the perpetrator,

c) the frequency and circumstances in which the sexual relations occurred and/or are reoccurring with the perpetrator,

d) the amount of pleasure or displeasure received from the sexual relations with the perpetrator,

e) the sum total of all gifts received from the perpetrator, including but not limited to: cash, clothes, food, books, travel, and jewelry,

f) the nature of past relationship with birth parents.

Anyone interested in participating in this seminal study and whom meets the criteria listed above, is well advised to contact their local congressman or lawyer to inform them of these activities.

All qualified participants will be treated with compassion, respect, honesty, and in complete confidentiality.

121. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 23, 2012

#(133-120 ota)
for the assistance of those interested in the above call for Participants Needed For New Study

Anyone interested in participating in this seminal study and whom meets the criteria listed above, is well advised to contact their local congressman or lawyer to inform them of these activities.

122. Tempus Fugit - November 24, 2012

I haven’t had much time lately for this blog, but I’m glad to see many of you are enjoying it in different ways.

The main reason I became involved is to warn others about Robert Earl Burton, whom I believe to be a sociopathic, manipulative criminal.

I reposted my INDEX so those who wish may examine the thousands of comments related to Burton and the FOF.

Many have written here of their experiences of deception and abuse in the FOF. Certainly some of them may be lying, but so many?

Occam’s razor and common sense suggest another likely conclusion.

123. WhaleRider - November 24, 2012

Tempus Fugit:
Occam’s razor, yes, would be a useful tool for the outsider to gauge for themselves vis a vis the Fellowship which side of the fence to be on; when dealing directly with a delusional system, I favor the Alexandrian Solution…

124. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 24, 2012

another quick test of the blog stats.

so today at 00:28 GMT the hits had totaled 625,783

then at 02:54 GMT ie 2 hours 26 minutes later the total had climbed to 625,856, with the addition of 2 more posts. So the ratio of hits to posts is 36.5:1

nice!

could be some current students or FBI agents etc in among the regular ex FoFers we see posting, who knows. (not God obviously, because he doesn’t exist ‘rimshot’)

125. Ames Gilbert - November 24, 2012

DECEMBER 21, 2012 isn’t far off now, just another month to go.

Burton and the 1550 odd followers have no doubt been have been busy, preparing for the end of the world. Again. Getting lots of things on credit, so they won’t have to pay for them after Armageddon, ‘borrowing’ cars, RVs, tractors, and of course, all the generators they can get your hands on for ‘evaluation’, deferring the tax payments to Yuba County, and so on. Updating notes of all the priceless art in museums around the world so they can grab them and bring them to the compound in Oregon House and jump-start the next civilization. The usual.

I hear Burton has been hedging his bets, or C-Influence haven’t been as clear as they normally are (!) with him, but it seems the end of the world is going to feature either ‘hydrogen warfare’ (whatever that is, maybe the hydgogen in giant water balloons miles in diameter hurled by space-faring aliens) or ‘California falling into the ocean’. Sometimes it’s the one, sometimes the other.

What’s that you say? You have to be an up-to-date dues paying member of the Fellowship of Friends to survive (http://tinyurl.com/cegn2us)? Maybe that explains the 19 people that I in the Sky claims have rejoined this year.

When it doesn’t happen again, I suggest Burton watch the clip on this page for some pointers. Here’s an old, experienced pro doing what has to be done when yet another prophecy fails to come true:
http://tinyurl.com/a8ruvsn

Reprehensible, bigoted, greedy and self-serving as he is, I find Pat Robertson a model of clarity, integrity, morality and common sense compared to Burton.
_________________________

Tempus, where is that index you mention? There is no link, at least on my browser (Safari).
Sound mighty useful for anyone looking for specific information about the FoF and Burton.

126. Golden Veil - November 24, 2012

113. Nevermind – November 23, 2012

“This is what happens to cult members of the Fellowship of Friends, they are “higher consciousness” lunatics and end up in a lifelong state of fascination with the ideal, with the promise of, with their identification with, higher consciousness. Just like all fervent religious believers the Fellowship of Friends fanatics mistake emotional and mental exhilaration itself for something that when actually found is repelled by such base enthusiasm.

Predictions about the end of the world, signs and portents delivered by license plates, the ubiquitous formatory drone of classical music, etc., etc., etc. is the wrong way.”

“A false prophet who wants to suck your dick is definitely the wrong way.”

Nevermind, thank you for hitting the nail on the head!

127. nigel - November 24, 2012

I have been thinking about this ‘higher consciousness’ lark. Shard has postulated that it does not actually exist, although he does describe drug-induced states in which one sees/feels the presence of God in everything around. Others has felt/seen hallucinogenically induced world symbols and insights into higher/lower worlds. Since I have experienced neither in any great way other than a sense of vividness/aliveness in a hypo-manic state, I wonder what is worth achieving in the human condition.

The virtues I copied/pasted at the end of post 114 do seem to be worth aspiring to, since they bring about, in my mind/heart ‘A Right Sense of Self’ – that is, one is in harmony with one’s own functioning, those close to one and the world in general. It is in the Buddhist tradition, mainly, that emphasis is placed on the supreme goal – The Achievement of The Self (note there is no convoluted teaching, as in the Fellowship of Friends in recent years, of a difference between the ‘higher self’ i.e. that which fits in with Burton’s aims [slavery, money-grubbing and sexual deviancy] and the ‘lower self’ i.e. the body/instinctive centre and any sort of questioning of The Grand Empress) – this Self brought ‘into the light’ by excercises and suggestions from one’s spiritual master. (Nisargadatta is a prime example of one who has achieved this ‘state/selfhood’ and I very much recommend reading his works, snippets of which are on the web and books which can be ordered/bought).

I have said before that, in the long run, I see no practical reason for trying, by natural means, as opposed to by drug-induced means, to attain a permanent quasi-hallucinogenic state, since in it there would be no ‘complete practically necessary human functioning in the “real world”‘ I am glad to Be Myself, in my day-to-day activities, glad to offer my Self-Achieved Skills to other creative individuals and to have hauled myself out of the money-wasting, lying and illegal ways of my former life.

Perhaps this is good material for further discussion. I hope so…..Nigel.

128. nigel - November 24, 2012

“The self by its nature knows itself only. For lack of experience whatever it perceives it takes to be itself. Battered, it learns to look out and to live alone. When right behaviour becomes normal, a powerful inner urge makes it seek its source. The candle of the body is lighted and all becomes clear and bright.” – Nisargadatta

Thank you, Ellen.

129. nigel - November 24, 2012

“The sixth chakra is located in the forehead. It’s energy is light. It’s color is often seen as indigo. And interestingly enough the Sanskrit word for this center is called ‘Agna’ or the ‘command post’. And this is very significant for it insinuates that the ‘command center’ – the director of our drama – is not in the power center. It’s not in the emotional center. It’s coming from a very high source – the intuitive center – which is what the sixth chakra is about. Note the sixth chakra has more often than not been discussed in very occult ways as place for super-consciousness, visions, clairvoyance and clair-audience. And that may be well and good, but for your life’s work it’s helpful to understand this as a flow of the intuitive cosmic intelligence that is not occult at all, but maybe very natural. For example, I often ask groups: have you ever had a time in your life when mysteriously or in some way that you could not understand some force came in and guided you, helped you make the right decision, pointed you the right way, helped you out of danger? And generally a large majority of people raise their hand and said ‘yes’. So this is not a hidden secret experience, it is something that most people at one point or another in their life have had happen to them! But then I ask a question: ‘how many of you felt this was extraordinary?” And again the majority of people raise their hand. Now, what if this experience was not extraordinary at all? But what if this is the way it’s supposed to be? What if you are actually aligned to the intuitive flow direct perceptions available to you 24 hours a day? This is a possibility of the sixth chakra.

To perceive and be open to dimensions of experience that are often invisible to people not because they are so high and mighty, but because most of the time we’re just too busy. You see, we live in a culture that is vibrating primarily on the first three chakras. Occasionally we move into a heart energy. Occasionally we move into a creative energy. But the opening of a direct intuitive intelligence is something that is neither taught nor supported in popular culture. Therefore it is thought to be fantastic.

The vocational issue around the opening of this ‘command center’, if you will, is intuition on one side and inflation on the other side. You see, you may have a fantastic revelation, a fantastic opening (and that is a beauty of the sixth chakra) but then when you begin to think that ‘Oh! I must be special’ or “If everybody did this in this way they may have this” – you move into inflated side of the sixth chakra. And it can get very very heady when the person begins to experience what Henry Davis Toro called “the higher laws”. That’s why it is so important that we work from the bottom up, that we have a strong ground, that our feelings are open, that our power center is clear, that we are working towards contributions, and so on and so forth.

So, what we want to do is open to the higher laws. Not to be someone special, not to move out of the world, but literally as if you are reeling a kite in from the sky to bring them down into the market place. Because the market place is the great democratic leveler of everything. If you can bring your intuition, if you can bring your inspiration into the market place – then you’re sharing it with other people. That is your life’s work.

When you’re inflated – you shy away from the market place, you want to keep things secret. Because then your self-delusional bubble might burst. So the opening of the sixth chakra has to do with the opening of intelligence, with the opening of intuition, with the opening to guidance from sources that we cannot fathom, but that we can experience and work with on a daily basis.

After all in the last twenty years we have seen remarkable healing of all sorts – through healers, through assemblies, through groups, through prayer. We have seen a power of spirit cure cancer, leukemia, diabetes, we have all seen incredible transformations. Well, if the power of spirit can do this then the same power should be able to get me a job. This is “bring it down home”. And this is very important: this work is a work of alignment – it’s not a work of escape. The whole purpose of creating the work you love and moving into our life’s work is to bring the heaven and the earth together. To bring the intuition and a practical together and to take that deep intelligence and apply it to day-to-day situations.

So we ask in the sixth chakra that we can open to the unknown and bring into the known. And that will generally guard us and guide us against the inflated delusional position.

Rick Jarow “The Ultimate Anti-Career Guide”

130. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 24, 2012

#(133-126 ota) Nigel ponders what is most worthwhile pursuing in life. It’s not exactly the same question, but it reminds me of the question of what values I could offer my two daughters who grew up as I was leaving the FoF and after I had left.

I remember them both being fine with me saying I didn’t believe in what priests said, but my 4 year old youngest was shocked when she realised that included “baby Jesus”. “Surely you believe in baby Jesus, dad?” No I tell her. “So what DO you believe in, dad?” I told her I believed in the mystery of the Universe, which was not a satisfactory answer as far as she was concerned. But I would have felt bad if I had given lip service to a myth I had no longer any faith in myself. I am glad to see them both now grown up to be well adjusted Atheists/agnostics with strong moral views on fairness and our responsibility for this beautiful planet, and I think that this is all the stronger for not being fed to them in the form of some religion that has some punishment/reward structure that enforces the religion’s moral code.

Perceptions such as respect for sentient life, avoiding cruelty, working hard to achieve goals and giving love rather than demanding it, are worth promoting, and do not require some primitive belief structure to gain authority. In fact thinking that one’s actions are being monitored by some deity who will weigh us up and reward or punish us can only interfere with an adult perception of moral good for its own sake, and keeps us stuck in a child’s subservient relationship with that deity.

131. nigel - November 24, 2012

129. Shard of Oblivion

“Perceptions such as respect for sentient life, avoiding cruelty, working hard to achieve goals and giving love rather than demanding it, are worth promoting, and do not require some primitive belief structure to gain authority.”

BLESS YOU, SHARD – I CONSIDER YOU MY FRIEND ON THIS BLOG AND IN THIS UNIVERSE…..Nigel

132. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 24, 2012

#130 thank you Nigel, that means a lot to me.

133. Golden Veil - November 24, 2012

122. Tempus Fugit – November 24, 2012

“I haven’t had much time lately for this blog, but I’m glad to see many of you are enjoying it in different ways.

The main reason I became involved is to warn others about Robert Earl Burton, whom I believe to be a sociopathic, manipulative criminal.

I reposted my INDEX so those who wish may examine the thousands of comments related to Burton and the FOF.”

Tempus Fugit, it seems that the blog has deviated quite a bit from what you stated was your reason for posting here… I hope to see your index soon. Thank you.

134. nigel - November 24, 2012

I may have posted about this before (or even this particular site), but I feel it is worth repeating, since this is the area in which the SUPPOSED AIMS OF THE FELLOWSHIP LIE AND IN WHICH BURTON MAKES “DEATHLY ABUSE”. I believe that, contrary to his either insane belief in himself, or his gloating about how he is ‘leading lambs to slaughter’ – in either case – something very evil is occuring and “I in the Sky” and others previously (and maybe others to come) are hypnotized by his abusive power and think that the ‘corporate structure’ of the Fellowship of Friends, either for individuals or ‘the good of the (w)hole’ (get it?) will lead them to ‘salvation’.

Personally, I have experienced Kundalini energy in my creative work, both on my own and with my students and close friends, and thought this worth mentioning again…..

Kundalini

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kundalini pronunciation (kuṇḍalinī, Sanskrit: कुण्डलिनी, Thai: กุณฺฑลิน, Tamil :குண்டலினி ) literally means coiled. In yoga, a “corporeal energy” – an unconscious, instinctive or libidinal force or Shakti, lies coiled at the base of the spine. It is envisioned either as a goddess or else as a sleeping serpent, hence a number of English renderings of the term such as ‘serpent power’. Reportedly, kundalini awakening results in deep meditation, enlightenment and bliss.

Description

Kundalini is described as a sleeping, dormant potential force in the human organism. It is one of the components of an esoteric description of the ‘subtle body’, which consists of nadis (energy channels), chakras (psychic centres), prana (subtle energy), and bindu (drops of essence).

Kundalini is described as being coiled up at the base of the spine. The description of the location can vary slightly, from the rectum to the navel. According to Sahaja Yoga, the kundalini resides in the triangular shaped sacrum bone in three and a half coils.

The kundalini has been described as a residual power of pure desire by Nirmala Srivastava.

The image given is that of a serpent coiled three and a half times around a smokey grey lingam. Each coil is said to represent one of the three gunas, with the half coil signifying transcendence.

Etymology

According to well-known teacher and translator Eknath Easwaran, kundalini means “the coiled power,” a force which ordinarily rests at the base of the spine, described as being coiled there like a serpent. The concept can be found under different names. For example the eighth century Tantrasadbhava Tantra uses the term kundali (‘she who is ring-shaped’).

Kundalini awakening

Through meditation, and various esoteric practices, such as Kundalini Yoga, Sahaja Yoga, and Kriya Yoga, the kundalini is awakened, and can rise up from the muladhara chakra through the central nadi, called sushumna, inside or alongside the spine and reaches the top of the head. The progress of kundalini through the different chakras leads to different levels of awakening and mystical experience, until the kundalini finally reaches the top of the head, Sahasrara or crown chakra, producing an extremely profound mystical experience.

A number of descriptions exist that attempt to describe exactly what the kundalini experience is:

Sri Ramana Maharshi mentioned that the kundalini energy is nothing but the natural energy of the Self, where Self is the universal consciousness (Paramatma) present in every being, and that the individual mind of thoughts cloaks this natural energy from unadulterated expression. Advaita teaches that Self-realization, enlightenment, God-consciousness, nirvana. But, initial kundalini awakening is just the beginning of actual spiritual experience. Self-inquiry meditation is considered a very natural and simple means of reaching this goal.

135. Nevermind - November 24, 2012

There are almost always two people living in the same body. There is the one private self who secretly experiences the sweeping reality of existence intimately, personally, and suffers life on earth quietly, hardly daring to breathe a word of confidence to another. Then there is the other character, the one forced by necessity to communicate his continuously redefined and fluctuating models of perception to the those around him. This second inhabitant is a skilled impostor, an inventor of opinions designed to place propaganda about himself and his preferred arrangement of facts in the minds of those around him. No one recognizes the quiet qualities or suspects the existence of the witness trapped behind the scenes helpless to prevent his counterpart from making up a world that does not exist.

136. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 24, 2012

#134 Nevermind proposes a theory of mind or something.

Is this something you have observed in yourself?

Do you believe it to apply to everyone on earth?

On what evidence do you base this opinion?

137. Nevermind - November 24, 2012

“On what evidence do you base this opinion?”

That’s rather a long story. I’m not sure the blog would tolerate such an account before the voices of impatience shouted the narrative down.

138. WhaleRider - November 24, 2012

The Persona

For the growing child, the development of a viable social persona is a vital part of adapting to, and preparing for, adult life in the external social world. ‘A strong ego relates to the outside world through a flexible persona; identification with a specific persona (doctor, scholar, artist, etc.) inhibits psychological development’.

Thus for Jung ‘the danger is that [people] become identical with their personas – the professor with his textbook, the tenor with his voice’.

The result could be ‘the shallow, brittle, conformist kind of personality which is “all persona”, with its excessive concern for “what people think”‘ – an unreflecting state of mind ‘in which people are utterly unconscious of any distinction between themselves and the world in which they live.

They have little or no concept of themselves as beings distinct from what society expects of them.

The Disintegration of the Persona

‘The breakdown of the persona constitutes the typically Jungian moment both in therapy and in development’ – the “moment” when ‘that excessive commitment to collective ideals masking deeper individuality – the persona – breaks down…disintegrates’.

Given Jung’s view that ‘the persona is a semblance…the dissolution of the persona is therefore absolutely necessary for individuation’.

Nevertheless, its disintegration may well lead initially to a state of chaos in the individual: ‘one result of the dissolution of the persona is the release of fantasy…disorientation’.

As the individuation process gets under way, ‘the situation has thrown off the conventional husk and developed into a stark encounter with reality, with no false veils or adornments of any kind’.

Absence of the Persona

The alternative is to endure living with the absence of the persona – and for Jung ‘the man with no persona…is blind to the reality of the world, which for him has merely the value of an amusing or fantastic playground’.

Inevitably, the result of ‘the streaming in of the unconscious into the conscious realm, simultaneously with the dissolution of the “persona” and the reduction of the directive force of consciousness, is a state of disturbed psychic equilibrium’.

Those trapped at such a stage remain ‘blind to the world, hopeless dreamers…spectral Cassandras dreaded for their tactlessness, eternally misunderstood.’ {Borderline Personality}

Restoration of the Persona

Recovery, the aim of individuation, ‘is not only achieved by work on the inside figures but also, as conditio sine qua non, by a readaptation in outer life’ – including the recreation of a new and more viable persona.

To ‘develop a stronger persona…might feel inauthentic, like learning to “play a role”…but if one cannot perform a social role then one will suffer’.

Thus one goal for individuation is for people to ‘develop a more realistic, flexible persona that helps them navigate in society but does not collide with nor hide their true self’.

Eventually, ‘in the best case, the persona is appropriate and tasteful, a true reflection of our inner individuality and our outward sense of self’.

~Wikipedia

139. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 24, 2012

#136 no go on, have a go. They can all just jump across it it they find it too verbose. I can assure I will read every word with close attention.

140. Tempus Fugit - November 24, 2012

“132. Golden Veil – November 24, 2012

Tempus Fugit, it seems that the blog has deviated quite a bit from what you stated was your reason for posting here… I hope to see your index soon. Thank you.”

Thanks Golden Veil, I’m glad you find the INDEX useful. I did try to post it several times along with my other post (122), but it wouldn’t post and I kept getting error messages stating, “you already said that.”

Maybe it will post in the body of this comment:

INDEX TO THE BLOG
Animam Recro – Fellowship of Friends – a cult for intellectuals, and Fellowship of Friends Discussion 
Part 1 through Part 10:

http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2006/04/16/fellowship-of-friends-a-cult-for-intellectuals/

The Fellowship of Friends Discussion – Free speech is a dirty business 
Part 11 through Part 33:

http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/

Fellowship Of Friends/Living Presence/Pathway To Presence Discussion 
Part 34 through the current page:

https://fofdiscussion.wordpress.com/

These links will allow you to access every page of this blog from its beginning in 2006.

Read with an open mind and you will find out the truth about Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.

And if you are a member of the FOF you may find your path to freedom.

141. Tempus Fugit - November 24, 2012

“132. Golden Veil – November 24, 2012
Tempus Fugit, it seems that the blog has deviated quite a bit from what you stated was your reason for posting here… I hope to see your index soon. Thank you.”

Thanks, Golden Veil. I have tried to post the INDEX several times in the last day but the system won’t let me post it.

Strange, huh? I wonder why…..

142. Fee fi fo fum - November 24, 2012

139 Tempus Fugit – I think when there are links in one’s post, it automatically gets held up in moderation.

143. freeman - November 24, 2012

139 and 140. Yes posts with multiple links are automatically held up in moderation until the moderator has a chance to approve. He may be on vacation for a few days due to the holiday.

I appreciate that many have stepped forward to tell their stories and articulate their perspective, and warn people. It helped me immensely, and I’m sure it’s helped many others. Keep telling your stories, keep exposing the lies, and be happy. The worst scenario for Burton is that people leave his cult and live healthy, happy, and productive lives. Happiness is not “the best revenge” as the saying goes, but I think it does help people escape if they see that others are happier and stronger than they ever were as cult followers. If today’s followers have their eyes open, what they’ll see in their former comrades is (in general) more sanity, compassion, spirituality, thoughtfulness, conscience, and sounder thinking outside of the cult. If they really look, they’ll see people who are healing. They’ll see people who are trying to improve their lives, and who are trying to understand. They’ll see people who don’t pretend to know all of the answers, or pretend to know things they cannot know.

Rhetorical question: If there are gods who care about what occurs on our tiny Planet Earth in a little corner of the galaxy, what do they think about people like Burton?

Ames 119. “IMO, what is much more important is to watch what happens when someone sets themselves up as a ‘Teacher’ and ‘accepts Students’, no matter what the actual discipline, without either party knowing themselves well enough to avoid the traps of ego and pitfalls of ‘transference’. Uncritical admiration/adoration by the followers is as dangerous as the leader using the group of followers as a ‘dating pool’ or worse. And in the case of the Fellowship of Friends, of course, this has been taken to an extreme, where the leader is revered as a god by his followers, and they give him free reign to prey upon their bodies, minds and wallets without limit.”

144. James Mclemore - November 24, 2012

134. Nevermind –
“There is the one private self who secretly experiences the sweeping reality of existence intimately, personally, and suffers life on earth quietly, hardly daring to breathe a word of confidence to another.”

I follow you though “intimately” and “personally”, but are you sure that the one who “suffers” belongs to what you call the “witness”, or is it instead just a part of the inward story, a story that sometimes includes an ancient tale of bondage (“trapped”), that this supposed second entity tells itself?

p.s. – I do not pretend to have a clear answer for this. The investigation is ongoing.

145. James Mclemore - November 24, 2012

136. Nevermind –

“I’m not sure the blog would tolerate such an account before the voices of impatience shouted the narrative down.”

#2 p.s.- I agree that this may not be the right location for this sort of conversation. I was not looking for an answer to my question. It just seemed like something to think about.

146. Tempus Fugit - November 24, 2012

“140. Fee fi fo fum – November 24, 2012
139 Tempus Fugit – I think when there are links in one’s post, it automatically gets held up in moderation.

141. freeman – November 24, 2012
139 and 140. Yes posts with multiple links are automatically held up in moderation until the moderator has a chance to approve. He may be on vacation for a few days due to the holiday.”

Yes of course. Thanks to both of you. NOW I remember this delay came up in the past for the reasons you stated.

Again, I think it’s great that so many are enjoying a lively discussion on spiritual topics, but I don’t want to forget others still trapped in the cult.

They may come to this blog in the hopes of understanding why their experience in the FOF feels wrong.

And if we do our job they may realize that the same feet that walked them into their first “prospective student meeting” can walk them back to the real world.

Yes, you can be home by Christmas, or even Cyber Monday!

147. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 25, 2012

so Nevermind were you ever a member of the fellowship of friends?

simple question.

want to give us an honest answer to that one?

148. Nevermind - November 25, 2012

“Want to give us an honest answer to that one?”

Why is a background so necessary? A person makes a statement, offers an opinion, repeats some bit of information from a book, why then can’t the words just be taken at face value? What is it that needs to know who it is that is imparting some testimony?

If I was part of your circle of friends I would be the one you thought of least. I would be the last one you would remember to invite to your birthday party.

149. WhaleRider - November 25, 2012

Nevermind:
“I would be the last one you would remember to invite to your birthday party.”

Well, after what happened at that Christmas party, what did you expect?

150. Fee fi fo fum - November 25, 2012

No one has asked any participant for full disclosure of their identity. Them’s are the rules of this blog. But because this blog’s participants are predominantly former FF members, that means many of us know each other in some kind of real-life context.

The concern would be that this knowledge would prejudice us, and would predispose us to like or dislike someone, once we knew their identity. Therefore, the presumption is that the words via our alias should “speak for themselves.”

My feeling is, it depends on what those words are, what the message is. Comments that are general don’t generate controversy.

But there is plenty of criticism on these pages. Although much of it against RB and the FFm there is also criticism and even invective against specific individuals that post. When it gets to the point of nastiness, the question becomes one of context. What’s provoking such a strong reaction? Do the 2 people know each other from the past, and therefore, can put a face to the name or alias?

We found with I in the sky’s initial evasion of divulging whether s/he had ever been a FF member, that ultimately, the evasion didn’t work.

151. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 25, 2012

#(133-146 ota) Nevermind. It’s not necessary, I’m just curious.

The reason I’m curious is that you posted this 12 days ago:

“100. Nevermind – November 13, 2012
Is joining a cult at any point in your life a reliable indication of mental illness? It seems like it is.”

Which led me to think you had no idea what it is actually like to join a cult. I answered that question from that perspective. Your tone of voice is that of someone looking at cult joiners from above. But over the following days your posts more and more seem to indicate you were at some point a member yourself.

That’s all, no problem if you prefer not to answer, that itself will be your answer, because anyone can see that if you had never joined the FoF it would hardly be revealing to answer it, but if you had, you are exposed as a slippery fish.

152. fofblogmoderator - November 25, 2012

125 and 140 were hung in moderation

153. Golden Veil - November 25, 2012

140. Tempus Fugit – November 24, 2012

Tempus Fugit’s Index has been placed at the beginning of each page for some time now by the blog administrator / moderator, who on this page, 133, put instead a letter written by Ames Gilbert that was first posted on page 132. An edit is needed in the 8th line of the Index to correspond with the blog’s new heading, Fellowship Of Friends / Fourth Way School / Living Presence Discussion.

154. Nevermind - November 25, 2012

Why is it that each of us, most of us individuals who have hardly made much of a positive impact on the course of mankind, expect to survive the dissolution of our life force from this body? What of these expectations of a grander existence beyond the rather modest existence in this life? If there is indeed no eternal existence then isn’t this rather commonplace existence disappointing? What is it that possesses the great ones, those who inspire religions a billion strong and a thousand years long, to distinguish themselves while we endeavor to get through a life of near complete self-absorption?

155. Golden Veil - November 25, 2012

154. Nevermind – November 25, 2012

These are pretty big questions. I don’t know the answers (and who could) but I have to say that each breath of life itself is miraculous.

156. ton2u - November 25, 2012

154 Nevermind

“…while we endeavor to get through a life of near complete self-absorption?”

you sound depressed. a word of advice on how to get over self-involvement — do something that helps others. my wish for you is that you may find the extra-ordinary in a “rather modest, commonplace existence.” it depends on your point of view and that can change.

thanks golden veil — thinking about ‘big questions’ raises an obvious question: “why is there anything at all, why isn’t there simply nothing?” the fact that we are here to experience life is inherently miraculous, mysterious.

157. Nevermind - November 25, 2012

156. ton2u

“…you sound depressed.”

Not depressed. Just finally honest.

“…while we endeavor to get through a life of near complete self-absorption?”

My observation is that we modern citizens are utterly self-absorbed, almost without exception. I can hardly remember meeting anyone in routine circumstances who was not entirely “me” oriented.

I guess I have to allow that you are an exception.

One thing I am learning from posting here is that nearly anything one might have to say will be turned into an opportunity for one-upmanship by one of the regulars. Was that an inherent aspect of Fellowship cult life?

158. WhaleRider - November 25, 2012

“What of these expectations of a grander existence beyond the rather modest existence in this life?”

This the sad part of idealistic thinking; it inhibits a person from experiencing satisfaction and inner peace in this present life.

What do you think Christ would say about what goes on in his church these days?

159. jomopinata - November 25, 2012

Re: oneupsmanship — was it regularly a part of interaction patterns in the cult? I would say yes, in the guise of “esoteric oneupsmanship” — who could say the more mystical, or the more “fourth-way orthodox-as-there conceived” thing. Also, who could utilize doctrine more adeptly to clobber another for failing to adhere to school rules, tasks, suggestions, “form of the school,” etc. and thus promote the self-image-management illusion that one who could conform behavior to rules, or even remember about them, or care about them, was “more evolved.” Sometimes oneupsmanship was obvious, other times it was subtle. Verbal oneupsmanship is a classically male way of interaction in the U.S. I think Deborah Tannen, who writes about gender and language, may have written about it, though in which book I can’t remember.

160. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 25, 2012

Nevermind says
“If there is indeed no eternal existence then isn’t this rather commonplace existence disappointing?”

Not at all. If anything that realisation enhances it.

161. jomopinata - November 25, 2012

I should add, to Nevermind, that you entered the forum as provocateur, at least that’s how it seemed to me. Especially noteworthy to me was your tack of shaming Whalerider for having been ensnared into sex with the cult leader many years ago, and suggesting that his history somehow means we should doubt the legitimacy of his perspective. I am not sure where you are coming from on that score, but it certainly suggests to me a certain deficit of compassion for the context of bounded choice, the fundamental terrain of cult membership. So when you indict the forum for oneupsmanship, you might also want to reflect on your own responsibility for provoking the less-than-charitable sentiments of those whom you seek to engage.

162. Nevermind - November 25, 2012

161. jomopinata

“I should add, to Nevermind, that you entered the forum as provocateur, at least that’s how it seemed to me. Especially noteworthy to me was your tack of shaming Whalerider for having been ensnared into sex with the cult leader many years ago, and suggesting that his history somehow means we should doubt the legitimacy of his perspective. I am not sure where you are coming from on that score, but it certainly suggests to me a certain deficit of compassion for the context of bounded choice, the fundamental terrain of cult membership. So when you indict the forum for oneupsmanship, you might also want to reflect on your own responsibility for provoking the less-than-charitable sentiments of those whom you seek to engage.”

I hesitate to debate with you because you seem to me have a particularly clear mind and I have no wish to alienate you. However, I think there may be a bit of group bias and memory editing going on here. I did not provoke Whalerider but responded to his blindsiding me with a rather digging attack. He lumped me in with I/Sky and made some references and suggestions involving homosexuality and joining Burton simply because I/Sky liked something I posted.

I did not provoke Whalerider but simply retaliated to an uncalled for, unprovoked and harsh attack. A point I have now made at least twice.

163. jomopinata - November 25, 2012

I accept your account, but since I esteem Whalerider highly, I am interested in what he has to say. I for one find no use for harsh ad hominem attacks, especially against cult apologists, whom I regard as deeply misled and blind, and who generally do not wish genuine engagement with differing views. But I do not tar you with that brush, since I don’t think you are a cult apologist, and you seem willing to engage here. It’s axiomatic that I’m missing something, though, since it is said by paragons of wisdom that those who keep their composure while those around them are losing theirs, generally have no idea what’s going on.

164. jomopinata - November 25, 2012

I’d add that Whalerider is quoting from a book he’s reading, and it is in the nature of deep engagement with books that we tend to see living examples around us of what we are reading about. Sometimes that’s because those examples are really there, and sometimes it’s because we see those examples whether they are really there or not. Usually, not always, there is something veridical in our perception.

165. ton2u - November 25, 2012

re: “one-ups-manship”

i’m responding (sincerely) to what i hear in a post by making a suggestion that might change perspective, but only if it’s actually ‘heard’ and not met with defensive reaction.

“I can hardly remember meeting anyone in routine circumstances who was not entirely ‘me’ oriented…”

what about a change of “routine circumstances” ?

“I guess I have to allow that you are an exception….”

in fact i’m very ‘ordinary.’

166. nigel - November 25, 2012

I had a beautiful birthday party (24th November) down at the Bishop Blaize Pub in Exeter. The weather was terrible – many of my invited guests could not make it to the ‘do’, so I did something quasi-biblical. Everyone who was in the pub as the food I had paid for and had been laid on by David and Nicky, the landlord and landlady, was served was invited to partake. Basically, the evening went from taking the rise out of my Welshness ( and afearing my adrenal glands with feints of provocation) to being bought drinks (I never got my wallet out once during the evening) and folks dancing to the guest band ‘Shovelhead’ – driving blues, Jimi Hendrix-style. Yes! I got high but was not a danger to myself or others – flirting with wholesomely beautiful women ( Flirting [def] – making sexual advances with the aim of getting nowhere at all) and being allowed to be myself in a robust and empathetic fashion. That is a small miracle in the mundaneness of life – but, like Golden Veil, I find every moment and every situation a miracle. I feel sorry for everyone who talks themselves out of a worthwhile life, for whatever reasons…..Nigel.

167. nigel - November 25, 2012

“Desiderata” by Max Ehrmann…..

“Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its shams, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy”

168. waskathleenw - November 25, 2012

156. ton2u
” . . . do something that helps others. my wish for you is that you may find the extra-ordinary in a “rather modest, commonplace existence.” it depends on your point of view and that can change.”

I couldn’t agree more. A volunteer project that falls outside usual life experience can change point of view. In other words, if you love bike races, don’t volunteer for an organization that puts on bike racing events. Volunteer for an agency that works with homelessness or women in prostitution. These experiences can be life-changing where point of view is concerned.

169. Fee fi fo fum - November 25, 2012

159 Jomopinata –

It might have been in Deborah Tannen’s “You Just Don’t Understand,” which was her book written for a popular, non-academic audience, on gender communication-style differences. I haven’t read it in a long time, but I think she points out in that book that men will get verbally pushy even when they don’t know half of what they’re talking about. It’s probably ‘king of the mountain’ behavior. I believe her premise is that part of this is upbringing, and I notice that you refer in #159 to “the U.S.” I’ve been in other cultures where it’s less pronounced in men because they were expected to show restraint and modesty, but it still manifests.

170. WhaleRider - November 25, 2012

Nevermind:
Now I want to point out that you came on board here claiming to be a new poster, but you seemed to have quite a huge “file” on me which you unloaded here yet again with the same familiar vitriol, indicating at least in my mind, that you’ve posted here before under different names. That is disingenuous, IMO.

If you want a fresh start here, I can understand that, just spare me the personal attacks.

I suffer the same ennui and angst as do you…although my life is anything but mediocre.

To achieve inner equilibrium, I had to work through my Christ complex after leaving the Fellowship when reintegrating into society. It was very humbling to work closely with the severely mentally ill. It taught me compassion.

Once I let go of my Fellowship persona, I had to grow a new persona, one that allowed me to see myself and others as more human than machine.

As Woody Allen reminds us, despite all our neuroses, according to Freud, all a person really needs to be happy is good sex and meaningful work, and I feel blessed in that regard even though I know I’ll never be rich enough, young enough or thin enough.

I’ve also come to understand that thinking precedes feelings (as opposed to strong emotions like fear or rage which happen more spontaneously).

If I dwell on negative thoughts long enough it eventually produces a negative mood.

If I come home from work in a negative mood, it effects my entire family.

If I take responsibility for my mood and thinking, and consciously think about something for which I am grateful, them my negative mood shifts. (Bear in mind that positive self talk is not for when you already feel positive.)

On the other hand, if one were to experience significant loss or trauma, a grieving process may take several years to complete, and I can accept that.

Abruptly leaving the Fellowship left a huge hole in my social network, and I am grateful to be able to reconnect here with others whom I consider to be my peers, you included.

I do agree with you about how self-absorbed some people can seem in their own little iBubbles, as evidenced by the white wires dangling from their ears.

171. brucelevy - November 26, 2012

Hey Greg, you sucessfully polluted the blog AGAIN. Mozel tov. Of course this is a easily manipulted crowd so don’t be so quick to pat yourself on the back.

172. I in the sky - November 26, 2012

Shard_of_Oblivion – 124:

“another quick test of the blog stats.

so today at 00:28 GMT the hits had totaled 625,783

then at 02:54 GMT ie 2 hours 26 minutes later the total had climbed to 625,856, with the addition of 2 more posts. So the ratio of hits to posts is 36.5:1

nice!

could be some current students or FBI agents etc in among the regular ex FoFers we see posting, who knows. (not God obviously, because he doesn’t exist ‘rimshot’)”

Regarding hits, it’s my understanding that each time someone refreshes the current blog page that constitutes a hit. So if there are 20 or so regular posters who refresh 5 times in a day to keep current that would register as 100 hits.

However it’s debatable whether God leaves a “footprint” when he/she monitors the blog.

Anyway, the theory is he/she read the entire blog before humanity existed.

173. Tim Campion - November 26, 2012

To my knowledge, the hits (or visits) counted depend upon the counter settings, which may be adjustable. (I’m not familiar with WordPress tools.) Steve might be able to tell us what visit interval the counter is set to.

For example, depending upon the settings, you might be able to return to the blog several times within an hour and it would still be considered a single visit or hit.

According to the embedded counter above, over the past fifteen months, the blog has averaged just under 325 hits per day.

174. nigel - November 26, 2012

“Giving It All Away”, sung by Roger Daltrey

I paid all my dues so I picked up my shoes
I got up and walked away
Oh, I was just a boy
I didn’t no how to play

Worked hard and failed
Now all I can say is
I threw it all away
Oh, I was just a boy
Giving it all away

Sail away, sail away
Ooh, I know better now, I know better now
Giving it all away

Ooh, I know better now, I know better now
I’ve given it all away

Went out in the world too much for my nerves
Only myself to blame
Oh, I was just a boy
Nobody else to blame

I’ve done all I can, now it’s out of my hands
Stand on my head and say
Oh, I was just a boy
Giving it all away

Sail away, sail away
Ooh, I know better now, I know better now
Giving it all away

Ooh, I know better now, I know better now
Given it all away.

175. Nevermind - November 26, 2012

One of the sad facts about this world is that a certain predictable portion of the mind quickly captures each of us and then for the remainder of our lives each exhibits a signature personality that can be readily recognized and anticipated by the psychological calculations of everyone else. Each becomes an indelible characterized fingerprint unable to deviate from the predictable. Why is it sad that each of us becomes stuck in the same limited region of the overall human potential? Because most imagine that this involuntary restriction is some kind of personal accomplishment. Each impersonates and repeats himself monotonously for a lifetime while imagining that the outpouring is an expression of unique spontaneity.

176. jomopinata - November 26, 2012

Actually, Bruce, this does read like one of Greg’s little encyclicals. I guess I missed it.

177. nigel - November 26, 2012

…..was going through my poetry/literature memory-stick to find files to compile an ‘Inner Strength folder to give as a Christmas present to the staff and patient/clients of the local asylum – too much is being taken away from them – my student/friend who runs Magic Carpet Occupational Therapy there says that is being stopped and it will soon be…..out of bed, have breakfast, have drugs, stagger in an unfocussed way aroung the ward, have lunch, more drugs…..and so on until bedtime…..What a way to deal with mental issues!!!!!

If I want anything for myself it is that on my headstone should be – “He was a Giver”. This is for Shard (maybe I can travel to where he lives for a drink/meal together?)…..Nigel.

From ‘Ulysses’ by Alfred, Lord Tennyson…..

“I am part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch, wherethro’
Gleams that untravell’d world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish’d, not to shine in use!
As tho’ to breathe were life. Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains: but every hour is saved
From that eternal silence something more,
A bringer of new things; and vile it were
For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
And this grey spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.”

“Come, my friends,
‘Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles whom we knew.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.”

178. nigel - November 26, 2012

…..to “I in the Sky”, from my memory-stick – read and inwardly digest, as my maternal grandmother, Jessica Tate (the sugar family) Wallace, kept saying…..Nigel…..

From the First Book of Horace, by Alexander Pope…..

“Not to admire, is all the art I know,
To make men happy, and to keep them so.”
(Plain truth, dear Murray, needs no flowers of speech,
So take it in the very words of Creech.)
This vault of air, this congregated bail
Self-centred sun, and stars that rise and fall,
There are, my friend! whose philosophic eyes
Look through, and trust the Ruler with his skies,
To him commit the hour, the day, the year,
And view this dreadful All without a fear.
Admire we then what earth’s low entrails hold,
Arabian shores, or Indian seas infold;
All the mad trade of fools and slaves for gold?
Or popularity? or stars and strings?
The mob’s applauses, or the gifts of kings?
Say with what eyes we ought at courts to gaze,
If weak the pleasure that from these can spring,
The fear to want them is as weak a thing:
Whether we dread, or whether we desire,
In either case, believe me, we admire;
Whether we joy or grieve, the same the curse,
Surprised at better, or surprised at worse.
Thus good or bad, to one extreme betray
The unbalanced mind, and snatch the man away;
For virtue’s self may too much zeal be had;
The worst of madmen is a saint run mad.
Go then, and if you can, admire the state
Of beaming diamonds, and reflected plate;
Procure a taste to double the surprise,
And gaze on Parian charms with learned eyes:
Be struck with bright brocade, or Tyrian dye,
Our birth-day nobles splendid livery.
To see their judgements hang upon thy voice;
From morn to night, at senate, rolls, and hall,
Plea much, read more, dine late, or not at all.
But wherefore all this labour, all this strife?
For fame, for riches, for a noble wife?
Shall one whom nature, learning, birth, conspired
To form, not to admire but be admired,
Sigh, while his Chloe blind to wit and worth
Weds the rich dullness of some son of earth?
Yet time ennobles, or degrades each line;
It brightened Cragg’s, and may darken thine:
And what is fame? the meanest have their day,
The greatest can but blaze, and pass away.
Graced as thou art, with all the power of words,
So known, so honoured, at the House of Lords:
Conspicuous scene! another yet is nigh,
(More silent far) where kings and poets lie;
Where Murray (long enough his country’s pride)
Shall be no more than Tully, or than Hyde!
Racked with sciatics, martyred with the stone,
Will any mortal let himself alone?
See Ward by battered beaux invited over,
And desperate misery lays hold on Dover.
The case is easier in the mind’s disease;
There all men may be cured, whene’er they please.
Would ye be blessed? despise low joys, low gains;
Disdain whatever Cornbury disdains:
Be virtuous, and be happy for your pains.

179. WhaleRider - November 26, 2012

I in the sky:
“Anyway, the theory is he/she read the entire blog before humanity existed.”

Unless you have some evidence to support your theory, that makes it more like your belief, doesn’t it?

And reading this now, is that your free will or god’s will, or willfulness?

180. Nevermind - November 26, 2012

The best they can do as a vague excuse for themselves as they sit mindlessly immobilized night after night at their beer is ritually unreel in bursting recital reams of memorized poetry from those antiquated recluses who unsurprisingly would have refused to drink with them.

181. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 26, 2012

#180 Nevermind – you’re not a very nice person are you?

182. WhaleRider - November 26, 2012

Nevermind:
Correct me if I am wrong, it seems to me from your 2 last poetic posts, that when you peel back the layers of fourth way dogma along with what you may think is psychobabble, underneath all the social masks, you find yourself shipwrecked on a deep seated existential rock of angst to which you seem chained.

IMO, there is no solution to the dilemma of living, which is too soon solved when we die, and in fact, that putrid state of spiritual nausea is the very compost of your creativity…according to Jung’s interpretation of the medieval alchemists, that is, and my personal experience.

183. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 26, 2012

#(133-171 ota) Brucelevy says:

“Of course this is a easily manipulated crowd”

Bruce, you sweet flatterer! 🙂

184. nigel - November 26, 2012

180. Nevermind

People like you, whether you have had a connection with the FOF or not, are immersed in their own self-anger, unable to come to terms with their own weaknesses, unable to dive down deep inside and heal the Big Hurt that all humanity shares. And, unless you reach out for help – friends or professional mental health people – you will remain stuck.

You (and Whale Rider) talk of PERSONA (so did FOF). Your mask is obvious, in that you cannot observe the truth in any of the posts that sincere (mostly ex-members) are telling. You are not a contributor – YOU ARE AN ITCHING SCAB!!!!!…..Nigel.

185. Nevermind - November 26, 2012

The strange thing is, whereupon catching him in the act, explain to a formatory man that he is formatory and rather than serving as information to enlighten him the ensuing resentful wrath will force a reaction that is far more formatory than customary.

The trouble with seeking solace in the rousing rhymes of others is that the tranquilizer only lasts as long as the unsober pleasure of intoxication remains undisturbed by the painful draught of truthfulness.

186. nigel - November 26, 2012

Ah! A direct confrontation…..how noble…..lNOT TO BOTH…..Nigel

187. James Mclemore - November 26, 2012

On existential angst……..

188. fofblogmoderator - November 26, 2012

I always try to refrain from voicing my opinion, but this page is starting to feel a bit off topic from the original intention of the blog.

189. Fee fi fo fum - November 26, 2012

188. Blog moderator

Yeah, the blog’s focus has become Nevermind, who seems to have come to teach.

190. Nevermind - November 26, 2012

Hey, no problem. I will leave you to Shard posting a Youtube every five minutes, Nigel posting thousands of pages of poetry and wikipedia randomness, Ton2u posting tons of obscure counterculture sociological nonsense, Whalerider educating everyone on the now obsolete theories of “talk therapy” and Bruce informing I/Sky with the highly intelligent comment of “bite me” repeatedly. If I left a regular posting party and his particular mania out please don’t be offended. Anyway, by all means, get back to the “original intention of the blog.” After the better portion of a decade the Fellowship of Friends is almost destroyed by the insight radiating from these hallowed pages.

191. Ames Gilbert - November 26, 2012

Nevermind (#133-190 or thereabouts),
how could this or any blog “destroy the Fellowship” or hope to do so?
All it can do is serve as a warning to those who might be interested in joining, and maybe provide some encouragement to those thinking of leaving. At least, that’s why I post, and what I try to concentrate on.

Sure, it wanders all over the place. I skip Nigel’s stuff myself; I can look up all the poetry I want on the internet, ditto anything I need to know about medications. I also skip most of the theoretical posts, yours included. I’m sure some folks skip my stuff. That’s the nature of the beast, and I accept it.

If there is a better way of warning people about the Fellowship of Friends, I’d love to know.

And, if you want to teach, maybe there is a better forum for you somewhere out there.

192. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 26, 2012

#(133-190 ota) Nevermind says in an ironic tone of voice:

“After the better portion of a decade the Fellowship of Friends is almost destroyed by the insight radiating from these hallowed pages”

as if the statement were so obviously untrue.

But hang on, since the Blog has made it impossible not to know about the abuses that Burton has performed, the Fellowship must have already been destroyed, because anyone who is still a member in the light of the evidence on this blog, has to be spiritually bankrupt to be able to continue. So this once brave school which (preblog) had innocent members in it, is now a ghastly skeleton, populated by zombie robotic androids, repeating their mind stopping mantras such as “the play is written” “I have verified C influence” “The lower cannot see the higher” “Do what the machine does not wish to do”

There is absolutely nothing that Burton can do now, that will cause them to see his ignominious true state of being, and it is thus that the Fellowship of Friends is destroyed.

193. Nevermind - November 26, 2012

“And, if you want to teach, maybe there is a better forum for you somewhere out there.” ~Ames

Ames teaching “self-remembering” on the blog:

https://fofdiscussion.wordpress.com/2012/11/06/fellowship-of-friendsfourth-way-schoolliving-presence-discussion-page-132/

69. Ames Gilbert – November 10, 2012

“Along the way I realized that self-remembering came in two classes. The first class was the kind that had happened before, during and after the Fellowship, a serendipitous kind that arrived with no effort. This kind had an accompanying feeling, that I was being ‘self-remembered’. The second kind was the result of efforts, the kind promulgated by the Fellowship, and I certainly collected a lot of those! I now call them by a different name, which is, “a state of hyper-vigilant awareness”. I could write a whole essay (please, no, Ames!) about this second type, but for purposes of this post, I’ll say that I came to feel that ‘collecting these states’ for their own sake is a dead-end, and is self-defeating.

“So, trying to stay brief, my new definition of will is, acting on one’s conscience. And increasing will is a matter of acting more on one’s conscience. Alert readers will immediately understand that this is actively discouraged in the Fellowship of Friends, for the simple reason that such acts are acts of individuation, no guru necessary. And acts of individuation lead to freedom, the exact opposite of the state of being a helpless, forever dependent follower. So, anyone who comes to this realization must see Burton and his organization as the huge impediment it is, must see Burton and the hierarchy of managers (‘older students’) as actively working for the exact opposite, and so must leave the Fellowship by the quickest exit. Staying means dependence and the squashing or at least disregarding of conscience. Becoming independent means graduating oneself, because if one thing is certain, Burton will never graduate anyone! His palatial, totally self-indulgent lifestyle utterly depends on the donations of sperm, money, labor and obedience from his followers, and to keep them he has to convince them that they are getting a good deal for their contributions. One of the ways is to confuse them about the value of collecting ‘high states’ for their own sake (a task with no limits), encourage them to divide themselves into two and wage an unwinnable war against the part labeled, ‘the lower self’, and to tell them useful lies about the nature of will.”

I don’t believe any of my philosophical musings went nearly as long as the above.

First, I am not teaching anyone anything. Like many, including yourself, I throw in my view of life and psychological work just as background material in the context of opposing the Fellowship. The difference is that my view of life tends to disturb people and for some reason they can’t seem to ignore it (like you claim to) and then they complain to the moderator. For the moderator of this blog to post a complaint (an observation that there has been a deviation from the main purpose) on this more or less rambling psychotic mess of a blog, and suddenly just now on this particular page, is beyond astonishing.

A cult is a place where a gathered grouping of people have decided that their own behavior is acceptable regardless of the extremes and that the behavior of outsiders is unacceptable. By that definition you have a cult here when there is a complaint of deviation from “original intention” because of an effective disturbance of the status quo.

194. 2012 - November 26, 2012

#193- Dude – you are trippin’. You might want to find a different forum to spend your free time….

195. Nevasayneva - November 27, 2012

Re # 175

Oh, I should stay quiet, but everynow and then something does annoy one. For example:

“175. Nevermind – November 26, 2012
One of the sad facts about this world is that a certain predictable portion of the mind quickly captures each of us and then for the remainder of our lives each exhibits a signature personality that can be readily recognized and anticipated by the psychological calculations of everyone else. Each becomes an indelible characterized fingerprint unable to deviate from the predictable. Why is it sad that each of us becomes stuck in the same limited region of the overall human potential? Because most imagine that this involuntary restriction is some kind of personal accomplishment. Each impersonates and repeats himself monotonously for a lifetime while imagining that the outpouring is an expression of unique spontaneity.”

Really, what a lot of claptrap!

Seriously wake up. It is quite easy to see that this is not true.

People surprise me everyday with what they say, what they do. It is my limits -not theirs!- that can lead me to think that I “know” all about them. I am not saying that you are going to meet Mozart on the bus, but take care! don’t settle for this kind of formulaic thinking.

Look around you!

196. WhaleRider - November 27, 2012

Like I said, people with borderline features move from one train wrecked relationship to another, as demonstrated above. They make a career out of challenging the status quo and pushing other people’s buttons. Yes, they are very intuitive, but they are not served by their intuition, it is only directed outward, usually in a negative way.

I might add, chained to that rock of angst, nevermind also gets his liver torn out every afternoon, only to grow another by each morning.

That might make anyone a bit testy.

Is it off topic to discuss the underlying angst that would have either lead one to a cult in the first place…or the unresolved angst that one might find lying dormant behind the cult persona after one leaves?

I don’t think so.

Aren’t those unaddressed feelings of angst and loneliness what could drive a person to rejoin a cult?

This isn’t all about nevermind per se…as the saying goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day….he’s reminding me of the angst that I felt before I joined and after I left.

Judging from his personal attacks on us, nevermind would like us to feel his unresolved feelings: marginalized and inconsequential….just a brick in the wall, so to speak.

And taking refuge in a religious cult with a mission from god sure does have a way of making a person feel special and important.

197. nigel - November 27, 2012

Despite the posts that have occured since when I directly confronted Nevermind and going to the ‘local’ for two pints and to arrange my ‘gift’ for the ‘asylum’, things have happened. I re-met a lady of 43 years old, called Susie, who invited me to her house and her friends (and 6 cats). Her mind is brilliant and she asked me many questions about my craft work and my psychological make-up. A sort of ‘geisha’ pre-requisite for when I come to terms with the other Sue, who has the artists studio next to mine – less zaney than Susie and more in my direction – I have a Zippo lighter with two killer whales on it (first edition and no-one else in Exeter has anything like it). I like to think this symbolizes a male-female relationship of ‘parallel desitinies’.

The thing is, Nevermind, “Humanity has prepared me for you” – ‘Highlander’ (director’s cut). You do not faze me; you do not anger me. I am engulfed by a raging calm. I encompass my reality (and want to champion the posts of Whale Rider and Shard of Oblivion, however much the may be at variance with me – they have made themselves vulnerable for the truth they bear).

You, Nevermind, have nothing but negative outbursts to offer on this blog. Even though Ames, in his Lunar willfullness (since he said it) skips over my posts (though I am not even sure about that) and maybe is missing out on impelling-to-selfhood reasoning, you may wish to re-read the posts that have been offered to you and ‘quietly retire’…..Nigel.

198. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 27, 2012

#(133-103 ota)

Here’s the thing.

I want to hear more from Ames about his observations of different types of self remembering. He has made some careful observations during many years of trying to do the work, and his reflections on that, are about as valuable as I could imagine information for me to be.

But your pontifically delivered ramblings just don’t hook my mind, they sound tame, contrived and boring.

199. brucelevy - November 27, 2012

When Greg appears and people start calling out his “stuff” he invariably complains that people complain to the moderator, as he did above. And in the past it has been sometimes true, especially when it started to border on threats, bullying, intimidation etc. I could be wrong but I’m guessing nobody has complained this cycle, but there it is again. He shits in the room and then whines that people are running to mommy, whether they have or not. It’s part of the schtick.

200. Nevermind - November 27, 2012

“That’s rather a long story. I’m not sure the blog would tolerate such an account before the voices of impatience shouted the narrative down.”

139. Shard_of_Oblivion – November 24, 2012

“#136 no go on, have a go. They can all just jump across it it they find it too verbose. I can assure I will read every word with close attention.”

Now this:

198. Shard_of_Oblivion

“But your pontifically delivered ramblings just don’t hook my mind, they sound tame, contrived and boring.”

Forgetful. Momentary. Fickle. Sunday driver/day tripper.

199. Bite me.

201. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 27, 2012

201 Yeah – Nevermind I would read your ramblings with close attention, even though they don’t hook my mind. Weird paradox for your mind I see.

Look on it as an expression of my being-partkdolg-duty if like.

202. Ames Gilbert - November 27, 2012

In other news:

MYSTICAL RELIGIOUS SECT ACCUSES FEDS OF SCREWING UP
Drug ring tied to mystical religion, fact or fiction?
Updated 7:33 PM PST Nov 26, 2012
Bungled investigation in drug raid?

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (KCRA) —
Angela Spillers stood in the doorway of her fiancé’s Oregon House home and acknowledged that federal drug agents seized dozens of marijuana plants from the property more than two months ago.
However, it is what has happened since then that has her upset.
“They tried to make this sound like something out of a movie or book. But they’ve realized they have no case,” Spiller told KCRA 3.

On Sept. 20, federal drug agents executed a series of search warrants on properties in and around the town of Oregon House.
In a search warrant recently filed in court, Brian Nehring, a special agent with the Drug Enforcement Agency, alleged that multiple members of “a self-described sect of Mystical Fourth Way Christianity” were engaged in a marijuana-growing network aimed at raising money to pay for fees related to membership.
The sect was identified as The Fellowship of Friends.

More than two months later, federal officials confirm that no indictments, or arrests have been made in connection to this search warrant.

“Something’s fishy here,” said Wayne Mott, a spokesman for The Fellowship of Friends.
Mott told KCRA 3 that agents never searched their main property, nor did they question any members on the premises.
“I don’t think they have a case. I think they are embarrassed,” Mott said.

A DEA spokesperson said that because this is an ongoing investigation, there is no comment at this time.
___________

If you go to: http://tinyurl.com/cjmdrt3 you can see a KCRA TV news video, and see Wayne Mott being interviewed outside the main entrance to Apollo, the headquarters of the Fellowship of Friends.

203. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 27, 2012

Copied from:
http://gnosticteachings.org/retreats/2011-gnostic-retreat-new-york.html

‘Being-Partkdolg-Duty

Often translated as “Parlok”; a term used in the teachings of Gurdjieff.

“To exercise the Being-Partkdolg-Duty means that we not allow intellectual concepts to pass through our mind in a mechanical manner; in other words, we become cognizant of all the intellectual data that come to the mind. How do we become cognizant of that data? It is done by means of Meditation. So, if we read a book, we should meditate on it, try to comprehend it.

“2. We must become cognizant of all the activities of our Emotional Center. It is unfortunate to see how people move under the impulse of emotions, in a completely mechanical manner, without any control whatsoever. So, we must become self-cognizant of all emotions.

“3. The habits and customs of the Motor Center. We must become self-cognizant of all our activities, of all our movements, of all our habits, and not do anything in a mechanical manner.

“4. We must become lords of our instincts and subdue them. We must comprehend them in-depth, integrally.

“5. We must transmute the sexual energy. We transmute our creative energies by means of certain alchemical procedures.

“Obviously, our life unfolds harmoniously, when we fulfill in this manner the Cosmic Duty or Being-Partkdolg-Duty and we live in harmony with the Infinite, in agreement with the Great Law. Thus, we will be able to reach old age full of ecstasy; we will be able to attain Mastery and perfection.” – Samael Aun Weor, excerpts from The Erroneous Functions of the Five Centers’

204. Ill Never Tell - November 27, 2012

192. Shard_of_Oblivion:
‘So this once brave school which (preblog) had innocent members in it, is now a ghastly skeleton, populated by zombie robotic androids, repeating their mind stopping mantras such as “the play is written” “I have verified C influence” “The lower cannot see the higher” “Do what the machine does not wish to do”’

You forgot to mention: ‘What fools these mortals be.

205. Freeman - November 27, 2012

http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=217848

Another longer report on a different channel.

206. Tim Campion - November 27, 2012

I encourage folks to add comments on the news channels’ websites for anyone who might seek further information about the cult.

207. Tim Campion - November 27, 2012

From the News10 article, Fellowship of Friends President Greg Holman is quoted:

“We’ve had 25,000 people come through in 40 years, and there’s a few people that have some baggage when they leave,” Holman said.

Is Mr. Holman spinning some tall tales? (Or is the Fellowship’s retention rate a paltry 6%?) The figures I’ve heard are closer to 15,000.

208. I in the sky - November 27, 2012

Ames 202 & Tim 206:

Most of those targeted in the raid were either non-members or former members. I believe there were two current members involved in the raid.

As I understand, the main confusion which led to the FoF being implicated concerns a 5 or 10 acre parcel which borders the FoF property and which was once part of the FoF property.

This parcel (on the corner of Dixon Hill and Candlewood) was sold more than 20 years ago to Dr. F A while he was a member and has since been sold and resold several times.

The present owners were not living on it but it turns out some relative or acquaintance who had access to the property was growing pot and was part of the bust. The present owner and the grower were not ever members of the FoF.

209. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 27, 2012

“I in the sky”, since you already bend the rules a bit by posting here at all, would you be willing to let us know what the latest predictions are regarding armageddon. Do you think we who do not live at Oregon House, will all have been obliterated by “Hydrogen Warfare” by dec 22? If so, I do hope you wish us all a fond farewell on dec 20th.

Won’t you be a little sad if there are no other bloggers still alive.

Just you and God (in some transtemporal super dimensional God like way)

210. Nevermind - November 27, 2012

Seriously, if you (non-regular posting onlookers) had to be trapped in a stalled elevator for 6 hours who would you rather be trapped with? The “psychologically informed” Whalerider, the “psychological” Nigel, the “tell it like it is” Bruce, the “endlessly malleable” Shard, the “highly informed” Tom2U, the “oh so pleased with himself” Ames or any of the other long-term constantly featured maniacs who have spent half their lives worshiping the Fellowship of Friends and the other half blogging against it -or- the rather mild “cult member” I In the Sky?

Honestly. Think about it. Despite their various philosophical beliefs which of these characters on display seems the least obsessed and neurotic?

211. WonderingWhosWatching - November 27, 2012

196. WhaleRider:
‘chained to that rock of angst, nevermind also gets his liver torn out every afternoon, only to grow another by each morning.’
Prometheus Mythology:

Enjoy!

212. Tim Campion - November 27, 2012

I in the sky,

Thanks for the clarification. Andreas J., who was the alleged “mastermind” was still listed as a Fellowship member several months ago. If so, and a portion of his profits were laundered through the Fellowship, that might make Greg Holman’s denial a bit disingenuous. In any event, the DEA will have to make their case.

In such an isolated community, it would be surprising if members were unaware of the grow operations. Back in my day (70s), we heard about members growing, even when it was in remote locations. It’s difficult to keep such things secret.

213. Ames Gilbert - November 27, 2012

A reminder that one can read a PDF showing the original application for an arrest warrant here: http://www.foothillsbusinessdirectory.com/files/SearchWarrent.pdf

I used Google Earth just like the agent Nehring did, and found the same photographs from 2011 he probably used.
‘I in the Sky’, in my opinion, because the plants on the property you mentioned were planted close to the border with the FoF property in 2011, it is possible the plantation was expanded on to the FoF property in 2012, maybe inadvertently.
It would be nice if it was over, but, as Jomo has pointed out, it ain’t necessarily so. The Feds may be slow, but they can grind exceeding fine.

Regarding Greg Holman’s claim that 25,000 people have passed through the FoF organization in its history, I’ll take his word for it. My guess of 15,000 or so was based on the membership list I was given in 1994, a long time ago, and on a rough graph I drew extrapolating from that. He (and you, presumably) would have access to the actual records. If he’s right, he turnover in the ‘outlying’ centers must be quite considerable. Which is very bad financially for the Fellowship of Friends, because fewer stay to pay the steadily increasing fees that become due over time for those more invested in the fantasy. Then the scenario might be: 600 or so hard-core members centered around the compound in Oregon House, and a hugely churning, mostly low-income-producing dabblers at the periphery. With the average age of the hard-core members tending towards retirement or older, the finances must be rather tight.

Luckily, the end of all times on December 21, 2012 will take care of everything, and the lucky 1500 will inherit the entire wealth of the earth. You’ll all be trillionaires! Hooray for the 45 angels plotting the destruction of the remaining billions of humans!

214. Nevasayneva - November 27, 2012

One might hope that the Feds had better things to do with tax payers dollars. Seems like the one who will get the most from this are lawyers.

215. Nevermind - November 27, 2012

Open Letter to the Fellowship of Friends

208. I in the sky –

“Ames 202 & Tim 206:”

To ex-students the cult represents a massive magnetic energy force which draws strong emotion out of every pore. In the minds of ex-students the cult radiates a mysterious energy cloaked behind a dark impenetrable curtain of silence. For years this mysterious energy source has animated the daily thoughts of many ex-members struggling against the indoctrination that they have failed. Many regularly place their beaded and barbed daily offerings to the God of Revenge out here in the theater of associative thought in hopes of sending a speeding bullet of emotional destruction into the heart of the Fellowship and its central figures. Usually all this pent up energy is simply dissipated into the nothingness of weak agreement and casual encouragement from the refugee camp inmates who post here.

Here are some possibilities of who I In the Sky might be (from least likely to most likely):

1. A very clever ex-student who has a talent for eliciting energy from a flagging cause and its dwindling and faded supporters.

2. An important Fellowship student in the position of being able to make certain major decisions himself; someone who has decided to come out and save the “school” from the persecution of the blog.

3. An appointed Fellowship student sent out to try and counter the bad publicity generated by the blog through the process of offering as good an impersonation of a reasonable and responsible citizen as is possible.

4. A self-appointed non-important current Fellowship student with so much vanity motivating his mentality that he or she feels confident enough to counter the “negativity” and save the “school” from harm.

If I In the Sky is a current student of the Fellowship of Friends then interacting with people on this blog, people who mean the Fellowship harm, is from the Fellowship point of view as unwise a course of action as is possible. What it means to the people here when a Fellowship representative interacts directly with them is that the unimaginable hidden monster has decided that the hecklers are so significant that it is necessary to confront them. The ex-students are exhilarated, energized, encouraged and consequently believe that their silly small talk is actually wounding the impenetrable beast when a Fellowship student interacts and argues with them. When I In the Sky appears on the blog to talk directly with ex-students it provides the necessary denying force to stir the negative emotions into some semblance of hope that the angry jabs toward the dark city and its emperor are finally drawing precious blood from the beast. If the aim is to quiet the grumbling down then sending I In the Sky out to argue with the enraged, disgruntled crusaders of vengeance is having the opposite effect, as anyone with much sense could have anticipated

I In the Sky is an egomaniac as evidenced by his persistently ineffectual rebuttals to the endless hostile attacks. He sees himself as a heroic figure fighting off an attack of the great Hydra, but the fact is he is far too formatory to do anything other than make a bit of a fool of himself while inadvertently energizing the Fellowship’s enemies.

216. I in the sky - November 27, 2012

Tim Campion – 212:

Regarding the secrecy of growing marijuana in OH:

“If so, and a portion of his profits were laundered through the Fellowship, that might make Greg Holman’s denial a bit disingenuous. In any event, the DEA will have to make their case.

In such an isolated community, it would be surprising if members were unaware of the grow operations. Back in my day (70s), we heard about members growing, even when it was in remote locations. It’s difficult to keep such things secret.”

First of all, many things are different from “your day” in the 70’s both in the FoF and around OH. This seems a difficult concept for former students to understand as they usually quality their comments and “understandings” of the FoF based on how it was or how they perceived it at the time they left.

Time and change didn’t stop when you left. When I think of my high school class mates I picture them as I knew them back then. It’s quite human to think in such ways but we do possess the logic to overrule those impulses. While my example deals with the physical change of aging, esoteric schools are places people come in order to change in other ways, so change is a vital ingredient. I would venture to say that nothing or no one in OH is the same as in “your day.”

As far as who knew what, I knew nothing of pot related goings on and the subject did not once come up in any conversations I’ve had with current members. So it would not surprise me that many other members (including GH) also did not know. Common sense tells me those engaged in illegal activities would tend to be careful about who they divulged such activities to.

Ames – 213:

Regarding Greg Holman’s claim that 25,000 people have passed through the FoF in its history, some of whom “left with baggage.”

My guess would have been around 17,000 or so.

But I don’t have official numbers. I know that over the years there have been many who’ve joined for a few days, or weeks, on a whim, and by the time their name appeared on the roster they were no longer members. Perhaps its all added up to 25,000.

217. Tim Campion - November 27, 2012

Nevermind,

You’re so dramatic.

218. Tim Campion - November 27, 2012

I in the sky,

I guess we’re all surprised.

Regarding my picture of the Fellowship being frozen in the 70s, well you know this is a straw man, and you seem to enjoy characterizing our understandings of the Fellowship as archaic. (The Fellowship is such a dynamic institution!)

Obviously, many of us maintained ties with members and ex-members, and kept up on news and gossip over the years.

And much information has flowed with the major exoduses from the cult. So the view is not so opaque as you suggest, or might wish.

By the way, have you ever smelled an outdoor pot-growing operation? It’s kind of hard for the neighbors to ignore.

219. jomopinata - November 27, 2012

216/IITS wrote,

esoteric schools are places people come in order to change in other ways, so change is a vital ingredient. I would venture to say that nothing or no one in OH is the same as in “your day.”

Burton is still a narcissistic sociopath who surrounds himself with fawning admirers, interprets license plates and clang associations as angelic communications, and wipes his conscious asshole with hundred-dollar bills. This was true in the early 1970s and it remains true today. Given the durability of this essential organizational structure, what could it matter about whether nowadays the money comes from the red plastic hotels on Marvin Gardens or the green houses on Baltic Avenue?

220. Nevasayneva - November 27, 2012

re 216 “I in the Sky”

“esoteric schools are places people come in order to change in other ways, so change is a vital ingredient. I would venture to say that nothing or no one in OH is the same as in “your day.” ”

The outward form may have changed, but some things may not have changed.
Checklist of Cult Characteristics

1) The group is focused on a living leader to whom members display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.

2) The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members and/or making money.

3) Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged.

4) Mind-numbing techniques (for example: meditation, chanting, denunciation sessions, or debilitating work routines) are used to suppress members’ doubts.

5) The group’s leadership dictates how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, or get married;) leaders may determine types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth.

6) The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, it’s leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).

7) The group has a polarized we-they mentality that causes conflict with the wider society.

8) The group’s leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).

9) The group teaches or implies that its “superior” ends justify means that members would have
considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).

10) The group’s leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control then

11) Members’subservience to the group causes them to give up previous personal goats and interests while devoting inordinate amounts of time to the groups.”

12) Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

Excerpt from the book “Captive Hearts, Captive minds”, by Madeline Tobias and
Janja Lalich adapted from information compiled by Dr. Micheal Langone.

221. Nevermind - November 27, 2012

217. Tim Campion – November 27, 2012

“Nevermind,

You’re so dramatic.”

Thank-ya, thank-ya very much.

222. Barbara - November 28, 2012

Ames, Shard, Tim, Freeman, Bruce, Whalerider, Nigel… and, really all you guys who participate, Thank you very much for the energy you invest in this blog. The links you provide are precious and sharing your views and insights has help me a lot in my recovery. We are not alone!

“Without vulnerability, there is no connection. Without connection, there is no meaning to life. Shame is what keeps us from being vulnerable.”

223. I in the sky - November 28, 2012

Nevermind – 215

I may possess any or all of the traits/faults/motives you mentioned. As far as my assessment of your contribution here; I would say I’m much more impressed with your logic, which is, at times, spot on regarding the mind set of the regular ex-members than I am with your overall temperament.

But your temperament may be part of your disguise. I would guess you are a current member who believes my interaction with the regulars is denigrating to the FoF and you are trying to dissuade me from “rousing up” those same ex – members, fearing they will become more focused in their cause to hasten the demise of the school.

It’s not my aim to cause any undue discontent with anyone here. If any truth I might utter filters through and causes anyone to consider it and not fear it, whatever the implications would be, then some good is accomplished.

I actually don’t question my being here; just like I won’t question when it’s my time to cease posting.

But you could have spared everyone the story of your sister and Greg.

224. freeman - November 28, 2012

Worth re-posting:
– – – – – – – – – –

189. Ames Gilbert – November 18, 2012
“This quote, from the comment section on a post about trolls on the “Naked Capitalism” website, resonated with me:

‘The important thing to realize about trolls, and the reason why they are worth censoring, is that they lie. It’s the most important fact about the word “troll” which didn’t originate as a reference to Scandinavian mythology, but rather as a way to “fish” for upset responses (the verb, to troll, describes a fishing technique of slowly dragging a lure or baited hook from a moving boat). The troll makes comments to control the responses. This can be anything from thread hijacking to having people leave the blog in disgust.
The worst part, though, is the lying. The troll knows the truth, but has an agenda. So he’ll lead people into circular, non-falsifiable arguments as a way to dominate threads.’

The shoe fits perfectly…

Similar techniques are used within the Fellowship of Friends. Circular, non-falsifiable arguments. Thought-terminating clichés. Appeals to authority (unapproachable, incomprehensible, superhuman, absolute types are best).
Etc., etc.

In my opinion, one of Eye in the Sky’s other objectives here is to disguise the main purpose of Burton’s organization and to normalize the actions of the sexual predator-in-chief. That is, for those doing due diligence, she tries to make the shameful aspects seem somehow respectable.”

– – – – – – – – – – –

I’m glad people are responding to the blatant lies and persistent nonsense being written here by “I in the Sky” (and others). At the same time, people need to be aware of their goal: They believe that diluting the content of the blog with circular discussions, and changing the subject, will somehow weaken the content — that is, just in case people are inspired to read it or participate in it. Notice how these trolls emerge fairly consistently when the blog is particularly strong.

Is their misdirection and disinformation working? Well, with federal agents paying closer attention these days, they had better hope it’s working. By the way, I’m not sure federal agents like it when people talk to television stations and say those agents should be “embarrassed” for conducting an investigation. That can’t go over well.

225. brucelevy - November 28, 2012

I In the Sky and Nevermind…a match made in heaven.

226. thirdlurker - November 28, 2012

the Jehovah’s Witness meets Lawnmowerman

227. WhaleRider - November 28, 2012

LOL!

228. Just the Facts Ma'am - November 28, 2012

216. I in the sky:
‘As far as who knew what, I knew nothing of pot related goings on and the subject did not once come up in any conversations I’ve had with current members. So it would not surprise me that many other members (including GH) also did not know. Common sense tells me those engaged in illegal activities would tend to be careful about who they divulged such activities to.’

I am a former member of the Fellowship of Friends (FoF). I was in for decades; about half of those years in Oregon House – toward the end of my stay in FoF. I have been out for many many years and have very few contacts in Oregon House and even fewer still in the FoF – and, no contact with any of the named parties in these news reports about DEA raids. I also live hundreds of miles away from Oregon House and have not visited there for many years. And, yet, I knew about the clandestine, not-so clandestine, and/or possible legitimate, growing of marijuana at specific location(s) there.

So, I in the sky, either you have your head stuck in a hole in your anatomy, a hole in somebody else’s anatomy, a hole in the ground, or, maybe, you are a disingenuous person, or just plain ignorant.

Or, maybe, it’s just a case of: ‘Love is blind, but the neighbors ain’t?*’
(* Read: you could be a blissed-out moron?)

229. Nevermind - November 28, 2012

224. freeman – November 28, 2012

“Worth re-posting:”

Reposting, what it means when you repost something is that you have some energy you want to share, you are antsy with meaningful excitement, but you do not have enough initiative, creativity and intelligence to come up with your own thoughts.

There is almost nothing more formatory than reposting the intellectual/emotional output of someone who already made the effort.

The exception is the moderator reposting something at the beginning of the page so that a good thought from the previous page can remain in sight.

If you want to be a “Blog Significant” then either find the talent to speak for yourself or recognize that you really don’t know how to express yourself and are therefore forced to remain mute.

Reposting is formatory and formatory does not convince anyone of anything other than to ignore the blog.

230. Nevermind - November 28, 2012

223. I in the sky – November 28, 2012

“But you could have spared everyone the story of your sister and Greg.”

Mark my words, he will pay for his bad karma.

231. Ames Gilbert - November 28, 2012

To anyone landing here looking for more information about the Fellowship of Friend or a discussion of the issues: you are probably wondering why the noise to signal ratio is so high. Why are the solid facts or informed opinion so hard to find? Well, a great deal of the noise right now is coming from an ex-follower who is presently posting under the name Nevermind, and his main grudge is against other ex-followers and this blog itself. He comes up from time to time with a new handle, starts off reasonably, or at least no odder than anyone else, but soon degenerates and exposes himself for who he is. The main crimes we are guilty of is that we didn’t hand over control (moderation) of the blog to him, so he could lecture the rest of us (and you) to his heart’s content—as if we would stick around and take his abuse—and that we don’t value him as highly as he values himself. This cycle is entirely predictable, is following the well-worn rut of many others, and usually ends up with him being banned because he insists on sucking all the oxygen out of the room.

So, you are here somewhere towards the end of one of these cycles, as his counterfeit mask of self-control starts to slip and his lunatic need to be the center of attention and respect rises to the fore and takes control.

Until this blows over, you can get much more signal and less noise over at: http://robertearlburton.blogspot.com/. Or, you can go back a few pages before this cycle began and see what passes for normal on this blog. There is usually one apologist for the Fellowship of Friends, and in this incarnation, look for posts by ‘I in the Sky’. Only one because members of the FoF are strongly discouraged from reading, let alone posting on this blog. There are almost always some regulars who will engage with them so there is a record of the arguments for and against for explorers to consider, but mainly we are trying to warn YOU, even though we don’t know you.

My opinion, shared by many, is that the Fellowship of Friends is a financial and spiritual fraud. It operates with one purpose, to satisfy the material greed and unlimited sexual urges of the founder, Robert Earl Burton. We have been through the mill and are here to report the facts as we see them to you. We advise you to think long and hard before joining, and in these pages are many cogent reasons for turning away and looking for something better. There are huge risks if you join, risks to your sanity, risks to your body if you are a young male who attracts Robert Burton’s attention, and a guaranteed emptying of your wallet.

However, if you do decide to join, do it quickly. Robert Burton has prophesied (again) that the end of the world is imminent. Despite many previous failed predictions, he has received fresh messages from 45 ‘angels’ that the latest end of the world will occur this coming December 21, 2012. How does he receive these messages? The ‘angels’, according to him, arrange for significant license plates, numbers on mailboxes, and slogans on T-shirts to appear before him, and he interprets them (for example, see: http://tinyurl.com/cyt4a89).
And since he claims he ‘conscious’ and that he is the ‘brightest light in 2000 years’, his followers take his claims as the literal truth. So, this is your chance to be saved, to inherit all the wealth and wisdom of the world, and watch as the ‘angels’ destroy every other living human being. If you are the kind of person to be tempted by that, click on the link to the LivingPresence.com website at the top of this page, and make reservations as quickly as you can!

232. freeman - November 28, 2012

Actually it’s worse than that, Nevermind. I posted the quote of a quote.

I particularly liked this part:

“It’s the most important fact about the word “troll” which didn’t originate as a reference to Scandinavian mythology, but rather as a way to “fish” for upset responses (the verb, to troll, describes a fishing technique of slowly dragging a lure or baited hook from a moving boat). The troll makes comments to control the responses. This can be anything from thread hijacking to having people leave the blog in disgust.”

233. WhaleRider - November 28, 2012

The Turnip Votes Robert E. Burton the Sexiest Sociopath Alive for 2012

The Turnip is proud to announce that the Fellowship of Friend’s supreme cult leader Robert E. Burton has officially been named the newspaper’s Sexiest Sociopath Alive for the year 2012.

With his devastatingly handsome, long face, his boyish charm, and his strong, sturdy frame, this Arkansas bred heartthrob is every young man’s nightmare come true.

Blessed with an air of power that masks an unmistakable cute, cuddly, creepy side, Burton made this newspaper’s editorial board swoon with his impeccable fashion sense, chic short hairstyle, and, of course, that famous twitch.

“He has that rare ability to somehow be completely adorable and completely sickening at the same time,” Turnip Style and Entertainment editor Marissa Blake-Zweibel said. “And that’s the quality that makes him the sort of man young men want, and his followers want to be. He’s a real hunk with real intensity who also knows how to cut loose and let his pants down.”

With today’s announcement, Burton joins the ranks of The Turnip’s prior “Sexiest Sociopaths Alive” winners, including:
2011: Bashar al-Assad
2010: Bernie Madoff
2009: Charles and David Koch (co-winners)
2008: Ted Kaczynski
2007: T. Herman Zweibel

234. Shard_of_Oblivion - November 28, 2012

“217. Tim Campion – November 27, 2012
Nevermind,

You’re so dramatic.”

Dramatic, but not so much a Shakespeare play as the moment in a Harry Potter movie when Radcliffe and his fresh faced chums have, simply by being good and honest, managed to uncover the “one who cannot be named” whose dreadful real face has up till now been hidden behind a turban. But now he has nothing to lose, and throws his disguise aside as he delights in unleashing the full power of his devastating critical analysis and all-seeing satirical eye upon the other posters.

235. Nevermind - November 28, 2012

228. Just the Facts Ma’am – November 28, 2012

“Read: you could be a blissed-out moron?”

I have not had time to think it all through, but isn’t this one of the most significant questions in the course of any and all esoteric pursuits?

Is there any use, any purpose, anything ‘good’, about being a “blissed-out moron”? Isn’t there in fact something terribly wrong with being a conscious idiot?

Picture unsophisticated believers happy, carefree, not a negative thought in their heads, living in an idealistic setting of beauty and peace, going about their simple chores, while floating on the pleasant delusion that they are enjoying consciousness when in truth they are simply too uncomplicated to realize that senseless naiveté is in fact psychological somnambulism.

Is higher consciousness without intelligence even possible?

236. jomopinata - November 28, 2012

As Bob Dylan reminds us, “everybody must get stoned.”

237. Associated Press - November 28, 2012

‘Texas moves to seize polygamist’s ranch

AUSTIN, Texas, Nov. 28 (UPI) — Texas Wednesday moved to seize the ranch in Eldorado where polygamist Warren Jeffs and others sexually abused children.

The Texas attorney general’s office submitted a 91-page affidavit to a state court claiming the 1,600-acre YFZ Ranch was purchased with laundered money from illegal activities “in a failed attempt to establish a remote outpost where they could insulate themselves from criminal prosecution for sexually assaulting children.”

Jeffs was tried and convicted in 2011 and is serving a prison sentence for sexually abusing two girls. His fundamentalist sect bought the west Texas ranch in 2003. . . .

Texas and federal law enforcement officials raided the property in 2008 acting on a false tip that a girl was being held against her will at the ranch. Instead, they found evidence of underage marriage and sexual abuse of children.

Nine members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints group, including Jeffs, were convicted of bigamy or sexual assault of minors at the compound.

“Based on a through financial audit of the FLDS’s bank accounts, the affidavit details how the purchase of the ranch itself and the construction of a massive compound on ranch property were financed with the proceeds of illegal money laundering,” the attorney general office’s release said. . . .’

Could happen to a sociopath’s compound near you.

238. James Mclemore - November 28, 2012

“Is higher consciousness without intelligence even possible?”

IMHO the problem with the question may be in the “higher” rather then in the philosophical nature of “intelligence” and its “possibilities”.
Which leads me to thinking, in a rather round about way……..

“everybody must get stoned.”

239. David - November 28, 2012

There is an easy way to tell if Nevermind is Greg; Don’t reply to or reference any of his posts.
Greg’s Ego basks in the energy positive or negative directed at him in Blogs/lists like this. Deprive him of that and his true nature inevitably rears its’ ugly head.

240. James Mclemore - November 28, 2012

238. David

I think you are exactly right, and I will refrain from responding.

241. Nevermind - November 28, 2012

238. David – November 28, 2012

“There is an easy way to tell if Nevermind is Greg; Don’t reply to or reference any of his posts.
Greg’s Ego basks in the energy positive or negative directed at him in Blogs/lists like this. Deprive him of that and his true nature inevitably rears its’ ugly head.”

This is a brilliant tactic. I hope everyone employs it. One thought though, didn’t you just impede the effectiveness of the strategy by referencing both characters when you suggested the course of action publicly?

Then there is the question of yourself and your own motivations. What did either Nevermind or Greg actually do to you personally that so motivates you to rally the troops in order to deprive them both of all assumed addictive attention? Do people seeking attention somehow remind you of your abusive mother or some such? Is there a factor of envy involved? Just what makes the attention getting activities of anyone else your business?

Another thing, let’s say the scheme works and Nevermind’s presumed alter ego “Greg” does raise his ugly head. Then what? Exactly what does a Goliath killing David gain by discovering that one person is also another? Do you then pat yourself on the back and buy yourself a beer or what? Your motives in this worthy and essential endeavor to proceed with an undoubtedly significant social experiment seem a bit bizarre.

Why does David need to be instrumental in depriving someone else of attention? What strange character flaw is at work in this public display of displaced resentment?

Remember: Don’t answer this message.

242. Tim Campion - November 28, 2012

222. Barbara

Thanks for some positive feedback. We sometimes grow accustomed to having the blog’s worth undermined and diminished by the likes of Nevermind and I in the sky. It is encouraging to hear you are doing well in your “recovery” and may serve as an example for other members.

I found the TED video interesting, and I’d like to hear how you personally see the concept of vulnerability and confronting shame as part of your current healing process.

243. I in the sky - November 28, 2012

228. Just the Facts Ma’am:

“I also live hundreds of miles away from Oregon House and have not visited there for many years. And, yet, I knew about the clandestine, not-so clandestine, and/or possible legitimate, growing of marijuana at specific location(s) there.

So, I in the sky, either you have your head stuck in a hole in your anatomy, a hole in somebody else’s anatomy, a hole in the ground, or, maybe, you are a disingenuous person, or just plain ignorant.”

I guess we attract what we are interested in. I have zero interest in which ex-students / current students are growing pot in the suburbs of O H.

244. freeman - November 28, 2012

David, 238, I’ve appreciated hearing your perspective for quite a while. There’s a very positive message on these pages if anyone is open to finding it. A lot of it is simply describing the unpleasant truth.

People can help each other to heal from this negative experience, and help others to avoid the same mistakes. It gets a little ugly at times, but I think the final result is a million times better than silence.

Like any open forum on the Internet, readers and participants need to sort through a lot of nonsense to find something that will help them personally; but I have faith that anyone who reads or participates here will find something helpful and enlightening. How many people this is actually helping I don’t know, but I also have faith that it is a large number. I know for me, it certainly took a long time.

245. fofblogmoderator - November 28, 2012

#231 was hung in moderation

new page coming later today

246. Nevermind - November 28, 2012

231. Ames Gilbert – November 28, 2012

“Why are the solid facts or informed opinion so hard to find? Well, a great deal of the noise right now is coming from an ex-follower who is presently posting under the name Nevermind, and his main grudge is against other ex-followers and this blog itself.”

Ames was a member of the Fellowship of Friends for 19 years before he was thrown out for making trouble. He has spent the last 19 years of his life or so trying to get even with Burton by badmouthing him behind his back.

Does that seem like someone you want to receive information and advice from?

Obsessive retribution is a disease.

247. WhaleRider - November 29, 2012

“What strange character flaw is at work in this public display of displaced resentment?”

It’s not so strange, actually.

It’s called Borderline Personality Disorder.

Every day he wakes up with a new liver, only to have a part of his own psyche rip it out by the end of the day, creating a gaping bloody hole in himself which he has to live with.

What we are feeling in our gut is his unresolved pain…as he lashes out at anyone who happens to be within earshot.

If you ignore his siren’s song, he will accuse you of inhumanity to lure you back to his rocky shore; if you give in, you will be dashed to pieces like everyone else.

He is stuck in the border between two irreconcilable and mutually destructive psychic forces…a doomed quest for an idealized reality and the cessation of his perpetual feelings of emptiness.

Since he cannot have either, he’ll make darn sure no one else is allowed to feel good about themselves in his presence.

This is typical full blown borderline behavior.

The sad part is that he was probably treated growing up by of his parents or caregivers with an overwhelming degree of sadism.

Since he is obviously not asking for anyone’s support here, nor is he interested in giving support to others, the only way to end the misery is to deprive him of his platform and let him suffer in silence…or we will all remain subject to his envy attacks, especially those who display the slightest amount of vulnerability, like newcomers.

248. ton2u - November 29, 2012

“Honestly. Think about it. Despite their various philosophical beliefs which of these characters on display seems the least obsessed and neurotic?”

you’re joking right ? how about a look in the mirror… and while doing a self-exam, go ahead and provide some links here to your other internet “projects,” that way your ‘teaching’ will be on full display and you’ll give us a singular example of what it really means to be obsessed and neurotic… no, obsessive and neurotic doesn’t begin to describe the psychotic lunacy that’s occupied you over in your isolation cell.

it’s puzzling that someone with so much disdain for for this “rambling psychotic mess of a blog,” expends so much psychic energy trying to be part of it…. whatever the cause of this may be — “obsessive retribution” perhaps ? i’ve just heard that it’s a disease… or maybe it’s simple loneliness… or… whatever the case, congratulation!!! you’ve found a way to worm your way back into the blog cult, and as in the past, at times you can even manage a somewhat conciliatory, albeit ingratiating ‘tone’ — disingenuous to be sure because of what lies beneath the strained efforts of civility…. but now that you’re ‘back in the fold’ here, how would you characterize yourself in terms of this disparaging ad-hominem list you’ve put together further up the page… how bout “blog significant” ? really, what would we do without you? on second thought, never mind.

249. Nevermind - November 29, 2012

Let he who fails to fit himself into the great generic “select group of matching mindset” be punished with derision and rejection, as there are no other weapons in our arsenal lethal enough to empress upon one another that we must all remain united in righteousness.

250. nigel - November 29, 2012

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke) So much of the history of the struggle between good and evil can be explained by Edmund Burke’s observation. Time and again those who profess to be good seem to clearly outnumber those who are evil, yet those who are evil seem to prevail far too often. Seldom is it the numbers that determine the outcome, but whether those who claim to be good men are willing to stand up and fight for what they know to be right. There are numerous examples of this sad and awful scenario being played out over and over again in the scriptures. They Get Nothing Good Done When good men do nothing, they get nothing good done. To be good, one must do good. The Lord commands his people to do good (Luke 6:35; Eph. 2:10). Christ “gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:14). In the parable of the talents, Jesus described a man who did nothing. When he received his Lord’s money, he “went and digged in the earth, and hid his Lord’s money” (Matt. 25:18). When his Lord returned, he returned to the Lord just what he had been given (Matt. 25:25). Notice, the servant did not do any outright evil, such as stealing the money, but then neither did he do anything good. He did nothing and he got nothing good accomplished. Jesus said he was a “wicked and slothful servant” (Matt. 25:26).

251. WhaleRider - November 29, 2012

Nevermind, I’m hearing that you were probably severely punished with derision and rejection by one of your parents or caregivers, the righteous one, in an extreme and overwhelming, if not emotionally lethal manner…more than your little “essence” could handle, and that’s what you’ve grown accustomed to pull or cathect from people around you by compulsively challenging the status quo in what ever situation in which you “find yourself”.

How many times do we need to go down this road?

If you start throwing rocks at people, they are going to reject you; it’s a sure bet. Haven’t you had enough rejection?

It feels to me like you probably were brought up to believe that vulnerability is a weakness, and he who strikes first and hardest gains the upper hand. But it’s not a way to estabilish a and maintain a social network. Face it, you have great difficulty being alone and need others.

There is no excuse for what happened to you as an innocent child, and you did not deserve that abuse.

The requirements for obtaining a drivers license are much more srtict than for becoming a parent entrusted with the care of dependent human being. Not all parents are good at parenting.

I have a critical voice in my head already, believe me, I don’t need yours, too. I already have several mirrors in my life for check and balance. Those mirrors are the healthy relationships I maintain with others. I can accept feedback, as long as I’m left with a pulse after such withering attacks. You go for the jugular and that makes me want to keep my distance from you.

Your prose is much more palatable, and it shows a bit of your vulnerable side.

Nobody is going to reject you if you stop throwing rocks at everybody.

Let’s stay focused here!

There’s a sexual predator on the loose, he’s advertising online, he needs to be contained, and if you’re so good at hacking, WTF?

252. Nevermind - November 29, 2012

251. WhaleRider – November 29, 2012

“Nobody is going to reject you if you stop throwing rocks at everybody.”

Says the man who threw the first stone. Quite absurd.

“I can accept feedback, as long as I’m left with a pulse after such withering attacks. You go for the jugular and that makes me want to keep my distance from you.”

“Uriah’s face was quite as cadaverous as it had looked in the window, though in the grain of it there was that tinge of red which is sometimes to be observed in the skins of red-haired people. It belonged to a red-haired person whose hair was cropped as close as the closest stubble; who had hardly any eyebrows, and no eyelashes, and eyes of a red-brown, so unsheltered and unshaded, that I remember wondering how he went to sleep. He was high-shouldered and bony; a long, lank, skeleton hand, which particularly attracted my attention, as he stood at the pony’s head, rubbing his chin with it.” ~ David Copperfield

Does this resemble the face looking back at you in the mirror?

Uriah Heep is uncannily illustrated in the Dickens archetype as the classic malignant narcissist.

Once you have delivered a narcissistic injury to a malignant narcissist he will hold the grudge forever and take every opportunity to demonstrate his cold rage for the next thousand lifetimes. The malignant narcissist never forgets and never forgives, regardless how many times he offers peace in exchange for trust. Those who have crossed him gradually loom larger than life as he analyzes every detail and trait about them day after day. He becomes excessively fixated on his imagined assailant, constantly plotting to destroy him. At least in his own mind.

253. I in the sky - November 29, 2012

241. Tim Campion:

“We sometimes grow accustomed to having the blog’s worth undermined and diminished by the likes of Nevermind and I in the sky.”

It’s amazing how people let their guard down in a closed environment (meaning surrounded by sympathizers.) When one can speak with impunity their true nature comes out, ala Romney in his infamous 47% speech to his intimate supporters.

Please tell me how the blog’s worth is undermined by those who disagree with you?

Could anyone utter a more narcissistic statement than your above quote? How can the truth be undermined by falsity? Falsity only serves to reveal truth. Truth dispels falsity just like light dispels darkness.

if you had the truth on your side you would understand that one or two individuals out of 20 who call your own beliefs and values into question would be a boon to your cause. The hollow ring of falsity would be ear shattering to your clear note of truth, if you were in possession of truth.

My reason for being here is to engage former members and let the truth become clear for those who have “ears to hear.” That would seem to be the case for you also.

When one has impunity, even the neutered impunity of a blog, it causes an unmistakable transparency in those who are not what they seem to be. The ruling clan gets caught up in their own bravado and overlooks how pompous and inelegant they appear to outsiders.

However, if your bottom line is to preach to the choir then all is well.

254. Freeman - November 29, 2012

Please continue.

255. fofblogmoderator - November 29, 2012

Alright, I’ve had enough. I kept this blog going 3 years ago because I believe the Fellowship of Friends, an organization I was in for 13 years is not what it pruports to be. This blog was/is making people aware of the dark secrets of the FOF.

That being said, I am suspending the warning that I am supposed to give to participants that I feel are worthy of being terminated and I In the Sky and Nevermind, you are banned. Feel free to write me, but I will not read your emails. I really don’t have a lot of free time and I definitely don’t have time to deal with this nonsense. It’s 10:30 at night and I am putting off making my dinner to read the latest comments, create a new page and side-line two people taking up far too much space (and I’m not talking about the quantity of comments you post).

It’s not good to eat so late at night you know.

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