Fellowship Of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion – Part 103 May 29, 2011
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Fellowship of Friends - Living Presence Discussion 
168. chasworks – May 29, 2011 (previous page)
“I recently heard that RB is very ill. Can any of you confirm this? I left about five years ago and lost interest in the FoF after a couple of years, but I was a member for a long time before seeing the absurdity of it all, and now I’m very interested to follow what happens in the FoF endgame, ie when RB kicks the bucket. Does anyone know if he’s appointed a successor? If poss, I’d appreciate hard facts rather than speculation. Thanks!”
——
I can’t comment about whether Burton is ill or not. But I do have a viewpoint about the idea of Burton appointing a ‘successor.’
The other thing that open discussion about the fof accomplishes is the exposure of Burton’s enablers, who have watched all of this happen for years, and decades in some cases, without saying a word, without offering a warning to those who join. Should they also be held accountable? That question enters into some gray area for many people (it may be hard to pinpoint exactly how much people knew, and when). But yes, it’s definitely not just Burton who qualifies as a sociopath in this cult.
Regarding a “successor,” it’s hard for me to imagine that Burton has seriously considered appointing a “successor.” His ego is so wrapped up in the fof that he probably cannot imagine anyone else taking over. He may talk about a successor, just to keep people happy and dangle some incentive for his closest enablers, but does he really care? If we assume he does want a successor, this also assumes that he truly sees the group as having longevity beyond him. Does he really see it that way? I wonder about that.
From everything I’ve seen, Burton sees the Fellowship of Friends as a place for him to have fun, and that’s it.
Nothing wrong with having fun, but he has little care regarding how his “fun” has any consequences for others. If he becomes seriously ill, and if he knows he has little time left, then what happens to the fof in the long run becomes irrelevant to him. Part of him may worry about his legacy, but then again, he certainly hasn’t cared about his legacy or his reputation for the past 40+ years. For Burton, people can think what they like, as long as he’s having his fun and maintaining control over the followers he remain in the cult.
Re. “ 170. qwertyuiop – May 29, 2011
I do believe, by the way, that the FBI and other agencies are watching very closely, and have been watching for a long time. I disagree with some of the comments that the FBI won’t take the cult seriously unless enough former members raise their voices. Let’s see — a doomsday cult with hundreds of members, many of whom are from outside the country, and entering under dubious circumstances. They’re taking it seriously. What would need to occur for them to take action? Who knows, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility with this cult.“
The story we used to get when I was in was there were indeed investigators watching the fof closely but that they mostly ended up joining. Nobody that I know or heard of ever went around confessing that they had been investigative agents so it was most likely dreamed up by the powers that be.
Another pipe dream that I remember and which was brought up early in the life of the blog is that the enablers who have stuck around are waiting for the assets of the fof to be divided up amongst them them after the death of Burton or whenever the fof collapses of its own weight, whichever comes first. Keep sucking on that pipe or whatever else you choose but it aint gonna happen.
One question. Can it be illegal to make public the names of these enablers? This would include the whole gamut all the way down to existing center directors all over the globe. Would that not make them think twice about going along for the ride?
The question of Burton’s succession is an odd one. A review of the cult’s history, from his first student’s revelation of his intentional deception to past four years of testimony here, should convince just about anyone that Robert Burton created nothing more than a spiritual Ponzi Scheme.
As so much evidence suggests, he is hardly divine, but utterly and powerlessly bound to his sensual world. His fantastic creation has well served avarice, lust and gluttony, and when he passes there will be absolutely no need to perpetuate Robert’s “garden of earthly pleasures.”
After that final bow, may his followers turn to repairing and restoring their tragically interrupted lives.
Renald, I hope you’re not suggesting that’s an accurate or full representation of my views on those topics.
Who knows if Burton will ever be held accountable, or if any of his top dogs ever will be, but every time someone leaves it’s a step in the right direction.
As I wrote on the previous page, the main thing is to just keep sharing information about the group.
It has been a while now that fresh new offshoots are growing and blooming in the Zoo-FoF. The above mentioned Fofids have to grow under the condition of remaining in captivity in the zoo, because leaving the herd would result in losing all the hard attained virtues on the spot and for good. Asf B.and Drn M. are the front runners as the future bearers and guardians of knowledge, wisdom and assets of the zoo; leaving the longtime second sell-out Grrd H. in the dust. These two phenomenal specimens are already doing their own thing: leading meetings of their own and pocketing the revenues, making decisions and managing finances. Like two good buddies they were also living together in the same pen for a while, until the latter managed to buy his own royal dweling, putting to work his well earned high salary and exploiting cheap fofid labor. Only time will tell if they will turn out to be two peas in a pod or two roosters in the same coop. Another fundamental requirement for their upbringing will be for the Chief-Tamer to take the baton off his orifice and pass it on to the promising new hopes.
Speaking of plugging orifices with foreign objects, lately the Chief-Tamer, besides being unable to get rid of a tedious ever-lasting pneumonia, is showing the painful symptoms of an ear condition called Tinnitus, a constant loud interior ringing caused, among other things, from brain abnormality.
Tinnitus can appear as a manifestation that accompanies the obstruction of the external ear canal due to earwax or foreign objects; aural toxicity caused by antibiotics, diuretics, carbon monoxide, metals and alcohol; cardiovascular diseases (hypertension and arteriosclerosis); anemia and head traumas.
All these things considered, the Chief-Tamer could have never escaped this fate. He has been found kneeling in his room, but this time it was not C Influence ringing to urge him to kneel and suck on a member’s member, this time he was covering his ears while suffering excruciating pain.
These days he can be seen wandering in the zoo bonelessly skinny and gloomy as a ghost/vampire/zombie wearing an auricular apparatus (something like an i-Pod) with the purpose of reprogramming the brain, showing the extreme naiveté of his doctors.
Inside the zoo there is some speculation about his imminent death and because of his great discomfort the precious indoctrination is already compromised and feared to be soon discontinued.
In spite of it all, he is doing fine.
Part of the problem is that, for many in the FOF, it is a glorified country club with ‘culcha’. I expect there are many well-off folks who like to get together and are encouraged by Burton and enablers to spend their money on ‘pretty stupid’ things such as $4,400 breakfasts that Burton will attend. Then there are others who just want the cultural social-life but are not so well off. Last come the ‘worker dogs’, as they used to be called. They man the vineyard, the gardens (and probably now, the zoo) and other menial tasks and earn a pittance. Could we suggest what factors keep all these people still in the FOF? Perhaps a few, that have been mentioned many times on the blog, are…..
1) The promise of life after death (immortality).
2) The feeling of being ‘special’ (cultural).
3) A ‘common aim’ (based on the other two).
4) Sharing the ‘work’
I understand that my thoughts here may be very theoretical, based on other bloggers’ posts, and certainly because I have been out of the cult for over twenty years (and the FOF is probably not now what it used to be – different in form and content) but I do feel a great deal can be covered to help the aim, as qwertyuiop explained, of just a few more others leaving the cult…..Nigel.
robertearlburton/gurusfeet.com
Robert Earl Burton is the founding minister of the Fellowship of Friends, a religious movement based in California.
He was born in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1939 but the family soon moved to Berkeley, California. His father was a butcher and he had two sisters and a brother.
He graduated in 1963 from San Jose State University and became a fourth-grade public school teacher in Springhill Elementary in Lafayette in the bay area.
At that time, he spent eighteen months in a Gurdjieff group of the Fourth Way led by the spiritual teacher Alexander Francis Horn. He studied intensively the teachings of the Fourth Way, as presented to the West by George Gurdjieff and Peter Ouspensky. He focused on the practical side of this teaching, and quickly grasped that self-remembering was the basis of the system.
Soon he returned transformed to the school after a school break. He was dressed like a hippie, complete with headband.
Burton resigned his teaching job early in 1967 and six months later what he calls “Influence C” – 44 angels who include Walt Whitman, Buddha and Abraham Lincoln — revealed themselves to him.
“Life after death instantly became a fact,” he stated.
In 1970 he founded the Fellowship of Friends while living intermittently in a Volkswagen bus in Berkeley and doing housesitting. Within a decade he already had a blue Rolls Royce with the personalized license plate “Oracle.”
On March 19, 1976, a “crystallization” occurred, Burton declared.
“I experienced a conscious birth, like a woman delivering a baby,” Burton wrote. “It came upon me. There was a bolt of lightning, smoke and an earthquake. My higher centers fused. World 6 and 12 were there. It lasted for about 15 seconds. The smoke then vanished.”
Originally, the Fellowship of Friends mainly followed Gurdjieff’s Fourth Way tradition, while currently it also emphasizes other spiritual schools and religions, such as the Egyptians, Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism. The Fellowship of Friends has 60 centers in more than 40 countries worldwide.
In 1991 his book, Self-Remembering was first published.
re Nigel 5….“ He studied intensively the teachings of the Fourth Way, as presented to the West by George Gurdjieff and Peter Ouspensky. “
Considering that as Burton has said that he never read Beelebub`s Tales To His Grandson by G. Gurdjieff never mind reading it in the three ways recommended by G. himself, I would not be so quick to say that he has or had studied the 4th Way material intensively. Just a thought.
re. 3. qwertyuiop – May 30, 2011
“ Renald, I hope you’re not suggesting that’s an accurate or full representation of my views on those topics.“
I am sorry but I don`t know what you mean by that. Anyhow I certainly have not written anything on this blog which suggested anything about you at any time or to any extent.
Cheers!
There is an expression that I have heard many times and I do not know where it originated but have often thought it had the ring of truth and that is “ Only the good die young“.
If it is indeed true then I would expect our man to usher in at least his eighties or nineties if not more. Maybe it was a rumor started to help slow down any of the growing opposition since another common saying has something to do about not speaking ill of the dead.
Cheers!
#3 & #5 are new
Renald, how can anyone possibly know what you mean, since you’re not directly stating it? If you stated an actual viewpoint, it would expose your thinking. Better to leave it vague and hard to decipher. By doing so, what possible criticism can anyone deliver?
And by the way, you learned that in the Fellowship of Friends.
And many have learned the same there. In the Fellowship of Friends, we learn to couch our opinions in indecipherable passive aggressive phrases. It’s safe from the prying eyes and ears of the group, which steadfastly discourages any thinking outside the lines, and it makes impossible for the critical thinker to expose it.
5. NG – May 30, 2011
Thanks for the info.
Re: Head-Tamer:
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
Couldn’t put Humpty together again.
re – 11. qwertyuiop – May 31, 2011
“ Renald, how can anyone possibly know what you mean, since you’re not directly stating it? If you stated an actual viewpoint, it would expose your thinking. Better to leave it vague and hard to decipher. By doing so, what possible criticism can anyone deliver?“
Either you forgot to take your pills or you are a shill on here to attempt to create discord amongst the bloggers, not that there has not been plenty in the past. By the way, how do you pronounce your name Mr. or Ms. ClearAndConcise?
Clarification note from Asshole Mick.
I don’t doubt for a minute that FoF/Robert is dangerous, corrupt and perverted, but what’s a blog to do? This is a discussion, isn’t it?
Re: Post #2. The names:
Alisanne Frew
Steven Dambeck
Michael Goodwin
Nick Spaulding
Karen Johnston
Abe Goldman
Ethan Harris
Carton Noble
Wayne Mott
Brigit Moran
The list goes on and on……
Asaf Braverman
Sarah McGovern
Elizabeth Kent
Among the many others don’t forget Judith Grace, who, during her royal days as first lady in Italy, received direct orders from ‘above’ to buy fake passports for a couple of Russian pages from the able Neapolitan counterfeiters. This type of illegal activity soon proved to be decisive for the ban sanctioned on Mr. Burton by the French government when later on another couple of pageboys tried to sneak in Europe by train.
I believe that Mr. Burton is still not welcome in Europe.
Great exposing, guys!!!!! I feel another crucial point has been reached on this blog, where no one is afraid to name names and situations. It will be interesting, if this ‘blogbardment’ continues, to see if there is any type of retaliation. Perhaps Burton is too ill to order any kind of reprisal and anything that is ‘done’ will be in a haphazard manner…..Nigel.
Cult Accused of Consumer Fraud
AURAGONE HOUSE (USA)-In another of a series of law suits filed over the years against the multinational quasi-religious corporation called, the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. AKA Pathway to Presence, headquartered in Northern California, an ex-member is now claiming to be suffering from the painful symptoms of an ear condition called, Acute Tinnitus, a constant loud interior ringing sound caused, the suit alleges, from an induced brain abnormality called, “self-remembering” coupled with heavy alcohol consumption, anti-depressants, painkillers, and frequent use of the heart thumping drug, Viagra, known to dilate tiny blood vessels and raise blood pressure…all reportedly encouraged by FOF leadership and liberally used by male FOF group members to apparently raise consciousness and other bodily parts.
The suit, filed today in Sacramento Federal Court by President Obama’s new Religious Consumer Protection Agency on behalf of the distraught young man, claims that while faithfully following the group’s spiritual practices and procedures under the direction of the group’s overly controlling leader and fondler, Mr Robert Eel Burton, which included, among other slimy practices too disgusting and embarrassing to mention, the continual mental repetition of 30 Sacred Canine Commands complimented with daily drug and alcohol use, instead of evolving into a higher level of human being as the group had promised, he soon developed this incurable form of Acute Tinnitus and had to leave the group, unable to attain any lasting inner peace and quiet.
Reportedly, the aging Burton himself along with many other long time members who practice Burton’s enhanced spiritual techniques have also developed the same painful condition and continue to display great difficulty listening to reason from anyone outside the group’s narrow mental confines as well; yet the suit also alleges that this information is not openly discussed nor routinely disclosed to new followers who instead of joining may wish to avoid this unwanted, avoidable and life long side-effect of deafening mental noise.
15. 2011
I object seeing Elizabeth Kent on that list. Elizabeth and I have been friends for decades and I know how she feels about FoF. You must be mistaking her for someone else. Please check your facts before slandering people.
The below is said so well and is already worth re-posting. Read this, members of Pathway to Presence and the Fellowship of Friends. Doesn’t any of this give you pause?
3. Tim Campion – May 30, 2011
The question of Burton’s succession is an odd one. A review of the cult’s history, from his first student’s revelation of his intentional deception to past four years of testimony here, should convince just about anyone that Robert Burton created nothing more than a spiritual Ponzi Scheme.
As so much evidence suggests, he is hardly divine, but utterly and powerlessly bound to his sensual world. His fantastic creation has well served avarice, lust and gluttony, and when he passes there will be absolutely no need to perpetuate Robert’s “garden of earthly pleasures.”
After that final bow, may his followers turn to repairing and restoring their tragically interrupted lives.
Re: 7. Nigel May 30, 3011:
The above post may read like an advertisement, folks, but I am sure that it is not.
#19- In my opinion if you’re making “teaching payments” or for that matter if you are a “student in good standing” you are an enabler. If Elizabeth has left the FOF I apologize. If she is still a member I stand by my opinion. I was an enabler for 13 years.
2011 writes – “In my opinion if you’re making “teaching payments” or for that matter if you are a “student in good standing” you are an enabler… I was an enabler for 13 years.”
I agree. It varies, though. It’s a matter of how much: how much one knows, and how much one participates in it, how much in denial, and how long a person lives with it without making changes, how long one sees all of it without leaving, and how much one looks the other way from the suffering Burton has caused merely because it would hamper one’s social life, or because one would lose money or business, or simply because it would be a blow to the ego, etc. For many, it was simply too much to take a close look at ourselves and what we were involved with. It was too uncomfortable. That’s being an enabler, too, although not quite like Abraham Goldman or Girard Haven are enablers.
– – –
5. NG
“…He has been found kneeling in his room, but this time it was not C Influence ringing to urge him to kneel and suck on a member’s member, this time he was covering his ears while suffering excruciating pain.
“These days he can be seen wandering in the zoo bonelessly skinny and gloomy as a ghost/vampire/zombie wearing an auricular apparatus (something like an i-Pod) with the purpose of reprogramming the brain, showing the extreme naiveté of his doctors.
“Inside the zoo there is some speculation about his imminent death and because of his great discomfort the precious indoctrination is already compromised and feared to be soon discontinued.”
Assuming this is true, I don’t wish this kind of suffering on anyone. However, I do wish the suffering he has caused others to stop.
Golden Veil, thank you for copying and pasting what Tim Campion wrote at #3.
Confucius say: “If the foo shits, wear it.”
Grant Ramey
Marie Ramey
Kenneth Wygal
Lydia Wyagal
Linda Kaplan (or whatever)
Rosita Kennedy
John Bowen
etc. etc. etc.
The FOF at the very first Prospective Student meeting explains that humans spend most of their time in imagination. They imagine that they are better than someone or imagine what they would do if they had more money. I call that daydreaming and I view that as a way the brain takes a break from concentrating on whatever. If you look around you there is not one man-made object or device that was not born out of imagination. Yes- the FOF calls that creative imagination and says that it is not such a bad thing. It’s the imagination of made-up nonsense that they say is a waste of your time on the planet.
OK, maybe it is a waste of time, but I get it. Why would I spend my life in a cult paying all kinds of money when what I needed to learn I picked up in my 1st year? To stay in the FOF after you see what they are all about is a lie. If you are honest with yourself you see that you must leave and that there is no choice. Staying is not an option.
The idea that C Influence works with the FOF is a myth. The idea of staying out of imagination and trying to be present might not be a bad thing, but creating immortality- total myth. Burton saying he’s been visited by Jesus- myth. Leonardo was the guiding force in creating Apollo- myth (The huntington museum/gardens were more of an influence than Leonardo)
It’s all made up. there’s nothing to verify. It is a country club for those that just don’t want to deal with life on the outside.
Well, they definitely *pretend* that it’s a country club. It definitely is a social club of sorts, but I generally associate the idea of a country club with wealth and prosperity.
People put on their old jackets and ties and stand next to fancy fountains and classical white columns, and make believe they are wealthy and living the good life — but many of them have huge amounts of debt, lack of health care, and no savings for retirement. And many others are unemployed or partially employed after being discouraged by Burton to pursue their careers away from the cult. The minority of lucky ones with viable careers are actually cursed rather than lucky — living a comfortable life, but locked in denial about what they are supporting and how many people are suffering because they support it. One day (if any conscience is left) it will hit them hard, as it does for many who finally leave.
This is no country club.
re 22 quertyuiop “ and how long a person lives with it without making changes“.
That phrase in my opinion may very well be the most intelligent idea I have read in the whole discussion since day one. People stay in because it is a habit or a list of habits (when broken down into bits). People leave because they acquire different bits which become habits which then become more and more reinforced. This applies to the behavior of everyone on the planet.
Therefore it is an explanation or definition of human life.
I happen to also think (here comes another bit) that if one goes on living without making changes in one`s life, that it is a waste of precious life. Fearing change is just another such habit. Further I now understand why I appreciate making the huge change of joining the fof and moving there for so many years as much as the huge change of leaving it. It is the essence of adventure. Thank you all for helping me see it so very clearly. Cheers!!!
an afterthought ala Nigel some lyrics which I remembered after my last post and which may or may not be relevant.
Changes
David Bowie
I still don’t know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets
Every time I thought I’d got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I’ve never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I’m much too fast to take that test
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Changes
Don’t want to be a richer man
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Changes
Just gonna have to be a different man
Time may change me
But I can’t trace time
I watch the ripples change their size
But never leave the stream
Of warm impermanence and
So the days float through my eyes
But still the days seem the same
And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They’re quite aware of what they’re going through
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Changes
Don’t tell t hem to grow up and out of it
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Changes
Where’s your shame
You’ve left us up to our necks in it
Time may change me
But you can’t trace time
Strange fascination, fascinating me
Changes are taking the pace I’m going through
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Changes
Oh, look out you rock ‘n rollers
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-Changes
Pretty soon you’re gonna get a little older
Time may change me
But I can’t trace time
I said that time may change me
But I can’t trace time.
Thanks again, cheers!
Josiane (103-19 or thereabouts), where is the slander?
As of today, she is a member of the FoF. So, the money she gives (and has been voluntarily giving since 1982) goes to support Burton and the activities he chooses (mostly his grandiose style of living and demanding sex from his male heterosexual students). Is that not the truth? Thus she is the very definition of an enabler, and every month (or more frequently) she renews her membership in the Long Term Enabler Club. Nearly thirty years of support!
Is it legal to name names on this blog? Of course it is, provided the name is connected with the truth. That doesn’t mean it is consequence-free; some people have the means to pursue frivolous legal claims, and in this country that means that usually both parties pay, so it can be used as a means of punishment by the wealthy. Is it right to name names? I’d say that it is up to the individual to decide. I have named the ‘movers and shakers’ like Girard Haven, Abraham Goldman and Linda Kaplan because they have set themselves up in the public eye and have attracted both the praise they crave and opprobrium they deserve. I don’t name the ‘lesser fish in the pond’ because there seems little point, and it might affect them in ways I didn’t intend. A while ago a member called me and begged me to use my influence to ‘tone down the blog’, because she had lost an employment opportunity by being associated with the FoF. But I had to point out that I not only had no influence, but that since she had never been named in the blog (let alone by me), her potential employer must have found out the connection in a regular internet search. In the same way, I’m sure an internet search for EK will bring results, particularly if she is on Facebook or other social site, and I’m sure present or potential employers can make the connection if they dig deeper, but that’s her lookout, and her decision to lie or not if asked the question. My decision at the present time is that I’m not going to help, even though I realize that causing her difficulties would lessen the income stream to Burton. I reserve the right to change my mind later, of course.
28. “A while ago a member called me and begged me to use my influence to ‘tone down the blog’, because she had lost an employment opportunity by being associated with the FoF.”
Good grief. What strikes me about this is the depth of the denial.
To whoever you are:
OF COURSE you lost an employment opportunity when the company you were applying to learned that you were a member of a cult. Did you expect otherwise?
When denial reaches a certain depth, the obvious doesn’t seem so obvious.
The solution is to leave the cult, no matter how old you are, no matter how poor, no matter how afraid, no matter how uncertain. No excuses. Rebuild your life in healthy and affirmative ways outside the cult. Build healthy relationships and connections with people outside the cult. Pick yourself up and dust yourself off. Get rid of the denial.
The cult member’s reaction to losing the job opportunity is an example of how cults achieve the normalization of the abnormal. People see and participate in strange and unhealthy activities and accept into their brains strange and unhealthy ideas, because they are programmed to see them as being healthy and normal. “Rodney Collin will administer the fall of California… [pause] Dear, could you please bring an extra napkin to the table?.”
The normalization of the abnormal. It’s not exclusive to any one cult, or even to cults in general. But cults like the Fellowship of Friends take try to perfect it.
… Or maybe cults don’t “try to perfect it,” but the normalization of the abnormal is definitely a symptom.
2011:
The irony is that FOF members are simply swapping one set of delusions for another, that is, the delusions of “false personality” for the delusions of “work or true personality”.
The core delusion of “false personality” is thought to be self-aggrandizement, believing oneself to have a greater level of being than one actually does.
The core delusion of “true personality” is its polar opposite: self-deprecation, believing oneself to have a lesser level of being than one actually does. That’s the cult hook…you have to feel or be made to feel worthlessness at your core and then the reward of cult membership will compensate for the perceived deficit.
I agree with you on the creative imagination front. Indulging in an introverted, creative, meditative, restful trance state is a healthy compliment to balance out an active day, given the demands placed upon our attention.
It’s fair to say that the FOF attracts people whom are given to extremes. Although showing up for one’s life, being more present may well increase the quality of one’s life to some extent, as long as one can manage to feel fulfilled in some way; (and for Burton “100 per day is not enough…”) I don’t believe sacrificing oneself and one’s integrity to become extremely present has any bearing on the afterlife, if there even is one.
2011: “The idea of staying out of imagination and trying to be present might not be a bad thing…” Does it make any difference? Myth? Please substitute ‘myth’ with ‘bullshit’, ‘crap’ or ‘out-right-lie’.
Qwertyuiop: “The solution is to leave the cult, no matter how old you are, no matter how poor, no matter how afraid, no matter how uncertain. No excuses… Get rid of the denial.”
Isn’t ‘denial’ a defense mechanism? The person in denial rejects the facts that he/she faces despite what may be overwhelming evidence… that person is in fact totally blind to that fact. How can you tell someone “Get rid of the denial?” It’s like telling the blind: “Can’t you see?”
“I don’t wish this kind of suffering on anyone…”
If you’d ask me, I think this is a universe-politically-correct-wannabe statement that makes me vomit. Many people fall under the ‘anyone’ category, well… actually all of them! Anyone? If you ask me I find it extremely hypocritical and phony, but since nobody asked, I won’t say anything.
How do you measure the depth of the denial?
Does denial stop at the cult?
I am so tired of people who justify the immoral behavior, alcoholism, drug abuse, and sexually predatory nature of a ‘teacher’ like Robert Burton by saying that many great men had/have character flaws and even criminal records.
If you are a member of the Fellowship of Friends and know about Robert Burton yet stay enrolled in the ‘School,’ you are an enabler of him and must be in denial in order to sleep at night and function during the day on your precious ‘Pathway to Presence.’ And, if you are one of the inner circle, one of the ones that is rich in a material sense, you are especially complicit in Robert Burton’s beautiful con school.
Maybe you should tell her to look at the situation differently, Ames. If C-Influence wanted her to have a job and be a useful member of society they wouldn’t have led her into the clutches of RB/FoF.
I think she is already being helped, though not in the way she expected. (Ouch! That wounds the ego.)
Sounds like the fields are being replowed here lately. It must be spring. This is a useful change. The surface which is hardened by repetition gets opened up to allow nutrients and water to reach those hungry roots. It is a welcomed change. Sorry but 5 years of my indoctrination was spent in the vegetable garden and I still like gardens or plants. Though that is true, if I find that the temperature here is too hot in spite of using shadecloths and such I will change my hobby. There are plenty I have not tried.
Fellowship of Friends
Alternate Names of the Group:
The Fellowship, The School Group
Leader:
Robert Earl Burton (aka “The Teacher”)
The following information provided by a former member of the group:
Description:
There is a fair amount of information on the web about this group, so I won’t go into exhaustive detail. It was founded by Robert Burton in 1970 in No. California. Early on, the group purchased a large amount of property outside Chico, Ca. It was founded as a “4th Way School” along the lines of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky’s organizations. The leader’s lifestyle can be read about in a lawsuit that has been published on the web, along with several newspaper articles detailing his activities. The group maintains a central facility on the California property, with a well-regarded winery and art museum. The leader is charismatic, controlling, largely inaccessible and prone to making dire prophecies that never come to pass. Imitation of the leader permeates the organization, held in place by fear-based peer pressure and religious zealotry. Criticism of the leader and the organization is strictly forbidden. Burton claims his spiritual development is second only to Christ’s — !! that he is “enlightened,” “conscious,” “an angel in a man’s body,” and so on.
The BITE Model As Applied to Fellowship of Friends
Behaviors:
1. All of these aspects are strictly regulated. Members are strongly discouraged from associating with those outside the group, and even with family members. Though this changes over time, rules about clothes and personal appearance abound. There are rules regarding how members eat, and on occasion, what they eat and drink. (For example, for a time soft drinks and bacon were forbidden.) The leader at one time suggested sleeping no more than 6 hours per night, and there was strong peer pressure to conform. As a result, some members’ health was damaged (mine included). The financial commitment was large at first, and increased until it was enormous. 10% of your income was the base payment, plus a constant series of “special donations” (required) and “special requests” (not required, but strongly “encouraged”). Members who chose to live and work on the Fellowship property were paid less than minimum wage, to my knowledge, while being asked to work excessively long hours. Those not living on the property were “encouraged” to spend their vacations there, generally spending their time participating in the manual labor.
2. At the time of my membership, students were encouraged to live in group houses called “teaching houses.” Those who didn’t were tangibly judged as being “less serious about work on themselves.” This seems to be less the case these days, however, as the general population of students has aged. There were generally two 2-hour meetings per week, along with special activities and dinners, but again, students were strongly pressured to spend any leisure time in the company of other students, and to avoid unnecessary contact with outside people.
3. This definitely happened, but in reality, there was a rule or “suggestion” for virtually every aspect of a student’s existence, so there was generally little question as to what “the Teacher wished one to do.” I do know that at one point he issued a proclamation that anyone in a relationship should either get married or terminate the relationship. Most people took this seriously and did as they were told.
4. I suppose there was some inclination to “confess” one’s “failures in the work.” More likely, though, was the tendency to “tattle” on others who had broken rules. There was and is a strict no-smoking rule, with large fines for offenders; students took to sniffing one another for signs of offense, and would turn in suspected smokers.
5. Punishments for breaking rules included fines and even expulsion from the group. Failing to keep monthly dues current barred one from attending meetings and other group events. Rewards were more subtle — acceptance and praise for successfully being able to act the part of the “good student.”
6. Individualism was all but banned outright. Students were told what music, art, clothing, etc. they should like. Non-compliance resulted in being shunned as someone with a “negative attitude” toward the teaching. To enjoy music etc. that was not sanctioned by the “Teacher” was seen as a personal defect and weakness to be ashamed of. There is also a very insular language peculiar to the group, where catch-phrases quickly take the place of real thought.
7. See above.
8. Questioning the teacher’s insights, commands, requests etc. was strictly forbidden, though the means for enforcing this were more covert and had to do with engendering shame, fear and guilt.
Information:
1. Any negative talk about the “teacher” was regarded as gossip, against which there were strict rules. A search of the web regarding lawsuits against Robert Burton will reveal the extent of his abuses of power, yet that information rarely if ever reached the students. The “Teacher’s” indiscretions were always interpreted in the most positive light possible, as in, “everything he does is for the good of our spiritual evolution.”
2. There was a time when reading newspapers and watching TV were forbidden, though now that is not the case, to my knowledge. Any information critical of the “Teacher” was quickly and effectively suppressed. There were and are strict rules forbidding contact with former members.
3. Us vs. them is a huge component of the Fellowship. Those not in the group are called, derogatorily, “life people,” and are considered “sleeping machines” and “food for the moon.” Burton has predicted a coming Armageddon, in which only Fellowship members will survive, and will be solely responsible for carrying on with civilization. The rest of “life” will be “expunged” according to Burton.
4. There is some of this, see above.
5. When I was a member (1981-89), there were monthly journals that were very substantially edited and “improved” transcripts of meetings. Occasional communiques with Burton’s thoughts would be issued. He has since written a book titled “Self-Remembering.” Certain books somewhat critical of the 4th Way in general, such as Webb’s “Harmonious Circle,” were discouraged.
6. The system of thought behind this group is quite complex, and tends to engender the tendency to do this to oneself.
Thought:
1-6: All of these occur, constantly and intensely, with the exception of chanting, praying, speaking in tongues, and singing/humming.
Emotional:
1-7: Yes to all these, in a very big way. Burton claims that those who leave his organization lose all chance of spiritual evolution. I quote: “When a student leaves, all the light that was available to them disappears down a black hole and is forever lost.” Staying in the organization, on the other hand, guarantees eternal life.
Other Sources of Information: The Fellowship has vigorously suppressed, through the use of lawsuits, information critical of them. They successfully squelched the airing of, I believe, a “20/20″ segment that featured a former student speaking out against the organization. However, there are some legal documents and newspaper articles that can be found on the web that will give you an idea of what really goes on behind its very well-groomed facade.
JD writes:
“How can you tell someone “Get rid of the denial?” It’s like telling the blind: “Can’t you see?””
Sure, if someone doesn’t want to see something, it doesn’t matter what anyone says — that I agree with. But seeing that something is denial (having it pointed out to you, or seeing it yourself) is a powerful thing. Your premise seems to be that the person is completely blind and will therefore never be able to see it. But often we’re unable to see things because we are around people who tell us for years that nothing is there. It’s hard to combat that — especially when part of the denial is that we need to listen to those people because they see us better than we see ourselves. Cult thinking is really like quicksand. It helps to have someone tell you that something actually is there.
If there’s a part of us that really does want to see the difficult truth, having someone point it out is helpful — was to me, and I’m sure it was for you, too.
———–
JD writes, (quoting me at first) – “I don’t wish this kind of suffering on anyone…”
If you’d ask me, I think this is a universe-politically-correct-wannabe statement that makes me vomit. Many people fall under the ‘anyone’ category, well… actually all of them! Anyone? If you ask me I find it extremely hypocritical and phony, but since nobody asked, I won’t say anything.”
People don’t lack feelings of resentment and anger for someone who causes them pain, or causes pain to someone they love. That’s not what I’m suggesting.
What I am suggesting, however, is that wishing suffering on someone because of their harmful actions is just more of the same suffering and harm coming right back. It’s the same energy or vibe that created the suffering.
“GOOD! He had it coming to him!” One question is, does it really feel better to express that, and does it alleviate anyone’s suffering?
———
JD writes: “How do you measure the depth of the denial? Does denial stop at the cult?”
I sense I’m dealing with a certain depth of denial here. I’m not sure exactly what is is since you’re not exactly stating it. But when a thing is obviously detrimental to a person’s health and well-being, and a person continues to ignore that fact, that’s denial. One measure of the depth of that denial (there are several) might be just how badly people are being hurt by it, and for how long they’ve continued to be hurt by it, how many people have been hurt by it, and how easy it is for that person to look the other way without taking action.
“Does the denial stop at the cult?”
No, definitely not. In fact, people who leave cults are generally very apologetic about it for a while (myself included for a time) if not for the rest of their lives. “I enjoyed my time there; I made some good friends; I learned something; I wouldn’t do anything different: It was what I needed for that time in my life.” All of those comments are forms of denial, and it’s common in other cults as well. It’s a phenomenon that is not exclusive to cults, if that’s part of what you’re asking.
Nigel ~
This is fairly detailed and well written. The references to numbers and “BITE Model” are a little mystifying, though. Is this an account that you are sharing with authorities or just for our eyes? Is this directed to a particular reader that has knowledge of what “BITE Model” means? Do you think it needs references added? If you are sending it out and haven’t yet, do you think that adding in the YouTube video “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” would be a good idea? Here is part 2 of that video:
36. nigel – June 2, 2011:
Nige, it might be a good idea to cite the sources of the information you seem to have quoted in this posting; unless, of course, you are the original author. This is a good disciple in literary and blogging circles.
39. Wouldnt You Like To Know
Those last two ‘account’ posts on Burton and the fellowship (7 and 36) were taken from Internet Sites and not my own accounts/writing. I will follow your advice…..Nigel
38. Golden Veil
It was timely that you placed the YouTube extract when you did. I know it has been posted many times but my home PC has no sound operational and I have been able to use my dad’s PC whilst recovering from a stomach operation today for a few days. The most prominent comment for me was that by Victoria Wilde-Zeischegg…..
“I regret that I did not ask enough questions.”
41-38 ““I regret that I did not ask enough questions.”“
Now that would have hastened things a bit.
I was at the meeting where Elena asked a question to Linda Whatshername as was told that it was not the proper place to ask that question. (..about what to do about being robbed by other students)
When Ames interjected that he was interested in the answer he got the boot.
When Gerda innocently asked Burton how he saw the idea of being food for the moon she got the boot for a year and was not allowed to speak to other students and to get out of Oregon House within a week. I am sure there are hundreds of other examples. Cheers!
42. Right on – let us keep asking questions of ourselves and others, in or out of the FOF. For instance, the phrase that, in the Universe, everything eats everything else. How about Burton devours young sex energy enough to destroy those people and to destroy his own ‘conscienable possibilities’…..Nigel.
The first question I asked my center-mates in NYC when I joined was; “when do I graduate?” (from the “school”). All I received as a reply was a funny little smile. I should have stuck by my guns and insisted on an answer…..
One of Burton`s inside jokes was “ If you do not become conscious within ten years you probably never will.“
A close friend of mine from Germany put a five year limit on her efforts and expenses and then wisely left. Now that is consciousness.
Cheers!
I haven’t been reading the Blog much, but saw some of last week’s posts* and felt prompted to comment because I saw opinions expressed about Elizabeth, who was one of my best friends in the FF in the mid-80s. (* comments 15 & 20 by 2011; 19 by Josiane, in defense of EK; 28 by Ames.)
We met last year (see photos on GF, if you’re interested) after a 20+ year break. ( Just for background, our break preceded my leaving the FF; thus, its reasons were not directly related to my leaving and her staying.) We reconnected as a result of GF, and that closure was very important to me. As one person said on GF, when we left the FF and became excommunicated, losing our friends was like being cut off at the knees.
Although it would not be right to convey what my conversation with her last year was about, I want to say that in relation to her being in the FF, it is not as simplistic or black-and-white as the above comments make it seem. I don’t say this as a blind defense on behalf of an old friend. Rather, you happened to pick the one person on the list that I actually saw and spoke to.
On one hand, I would agree with the generality that, if a person is still in the FF, then they are tacitly supporting it by still being a FF member. Current members make all kinds of excuses for RB’s behavior, or the extravagance of the donations, and so on. But that’s what happens when you’re stuck in a bad situation that you can’t seem to leave: you feel compelled to justify it to yourself, and resent people who try to tell you how wrong your position is. Those people become your enemy, not the people who got you stuck in the bad situation.
On the other hand, the FF and RB are not like a yoga studio with a head teacher that you’re disenchanted with and decide to stop studying with. It’s a vast organization that permeates every single aspect of a person’s life, inner and outer. In addition, I wonder whether longtime members who find themselves getting middle aged with few outside friends, little money saved for retirement, maybe trapped in the economy around Oregon House, gives more a picture of social dependence the way old married folks are who are unhappy with a very flawed union but are unable to go through an actual divorce. I’ve begun to wonder if half the problem is that FF members need to not only feel unhappy enough to leave the FF; they also need to feel there is something attractive outside of the FF to go to.
Romanticists and idealists, upon making a commitment to join the Fellowship, we all became elitists. That is what “The School” is, a pack of elitists. Don’t tell me that there wasn’t a theme of “we are better than ordinary people.” I think that we all must have wanted to be like Harry Potter, or something! Remember how ‘special’ he was? He was a Wizard!
Talk about “being in imagination!”
Whoops!
There is an echo in here. There is an echo in here.
Cheers!
re: qwertyuiop’s post 1 here –
“I recently heard that RB is very ill. Can any of you confirm this?”
he is indeed very ill, afflicted with a disease which has no cure – he’s a psychopath.
“Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate, and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations, and empty wallets. Completely lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please…”
http://www.hare.org/
RB himself has proven to be oblivious to criticism. His followers are obviously not so advanced.
The elitist “I am better” status is an important component.
I was trying to introduce the social context of what might keep certain individuals in the FF. Some people have spouses in the FF. That complicates everything – from shared values to financial support to your everyday conversations. Some of these people have children who have grown up together – the FF/ex-FF parent have to deal with their children’s social lives, too.
In today’s NYTimes, there was an article about Jaycee Dugard, the CA girl who was kidnapped and held for 18 years in a bunch of tents and sheds in the couple’s backyard. The man got her pregnant when she was 13, and again a few years later. Asked why she didn’t try to escape during those 18 years, she said that she had her children to consider. Aside from her maternal instincts, she had no concept of how to cope in the outside world, having been locked up since the age of 11 or 12.
This is not to compare 2 very different situations, since each person voluntarily joins the FF and Jaycee was abducted as a girl, but I find it helpful to look at the wider context.
15. 2011 – May 31, 2011
Most of the people who listed in this post are 100% fellowship insiders, supporters and enablers and must be investigated as well.
Can any one refer to a well written post or spend few minutes eloquently describing how in the FOF the 4th way ideas are misused?
Thank you.
ton, 50.
“he is indeed very ill, afflicted with a disease which has no cure – he’s a psychopath.”
“Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate, and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations, and empty wallets. Completely lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please…”
—
That may sum it up better than anything.
…..excerpt from Internet Site (Googled ‘cure for psychopathy’
“Psychopaths Among Us” , by Bob Hercz
“Psychopath! psychopath!”
I’m alone in my living room and I’m yelling at my TV. “Forget rehabilitation — that guy is a psychopath.”
Ever since I visited Dr. Robert Hare in Vancouver, I can see them, the psychopaths. It’s pretty easy, once you know how to look. I’m watching a documentary about an American prison trying to rehabilitate teen murderers. They’re using an emotionally intense kind of group therapy, and I can see, as plain as day, that one of the inmates is a psychopath. He tries, but he can’t muster a convincing breakdown, can’t fake any feeling for his dead victims. He’s learned the words, as Bob Hare would put it, but not the music.
The incredible thing, the reason I’m yelling, is that no one in this documentary — the therapists, the warden, the omniscient narrator — seems to know the word “psychopath.” It is never uttered, yet it changes everything. A psychopath can never be made to feel the horror of murder. Weeks of intense therapy, which are producing real breakthroughs in the other youths, will probably make a psychopath more likely to reoffend. Psychopaths are not like the rest of us, and everyone who studies them agrees they should not be treated as if they were.
I think of Bob Hare, who’s in New Orleans receiving yet another award, and wonder if he’s watching the same show in his hotel room and feeling the same frustration. A lifetime spent looking into the heads of psychopaths has made the slight, slightly anxious emeritus professor of psychology at the University of British Columbia the world’s best-known expert on the species. Hare hasn’t merely changed our understanding of psychopaths. It would be more accurate to say he has created it.
The condition itself has been recognized for centuries, wearing evocative labels such as “madness without delirium” and “moral insanity” until the late 1800s, when “psychopath” was coined by a German clinician. But the term (and its 1930s synonym, sociopath) had always been a sort of catch-all, widely and loosely applied to criminals who seemed violent and unstable. Even into the mid-1970s, almost 80 percent of convicted felons in the United States were being diagnosed as sociopaths. In 1980, Hare created a diagnostic tool called the Psychopathy Checklist, which, revised five years later, became known as the PCL-R. Popularly called “the Hare,” the PCL-R measures psychopathy on a forty-point scale. Once it emerged, it was the first time in history that everyone who said “psychopath” was saying the same thing. For research in the field, it was like a starting gun.
But for Hare, it has turned out to be a Pandora’s box. Recently retired from teaching, his very last Ph.D. student about to leave the nest, Hare, sixty-eight, should be basking in professional accolades and enjoying his well-earned rest. But he isn’t.
The PCL-R has slipped the confines of academe, and is being used and misused in ways that Hare never intended. In some of the places where it could do some good — such as the prison in the TV documentary I was yelling at — the idea of psychopathy goes unacknowledged, usually because it’s politically incorrect to declare someone to be beyond rehabilitation. At the opposite extreme, there are cases in which Hare’s work has been overloaded with political baggage of another sort, such as in the United States, where a high PCL-R score is used to support death-penalty arguments, and in England, where a debate is underway about whether some individuals with personality disorders (such as psychopaths) should be detained even if they haven’t committed a crime.
So, after decades of labour in peaceful obscurity, Bob Hare has become a man with a suitcase, a passport, and a PowerPoint presentation, a reluctant celebrity at gatherings of judges, attorneys, prison administrators, psychologists, and police. His post-retirement mission is to be a good shepherd to his Psychopathy Checklist.
“I’m protecting it from erosion, from distortion. It could easily be compromised,” he says. “I’m a scientist; I should just be doing basic research, but I’m being called on all the time to intervene and mediate.”
And it’s really just beginning. Psychopathy may prove to be as important a construct in this century as IQ was in the last (and just as susceptible to abuse), because, thanks to Hare, we now understand that the great majority of psychopaths are not violent criminals and never will be. Hundreds of thousands of psychopaths live and work and prey among us. Your boss, your boyfriend, your mother could be what Hare calls a “subclinical” psychopath, someone who leaves a path of destruction and pain without a single pang of conscience. Even more worrisome is the fact that, at this stage, no one — not even Bob Hare –is quite sure what to do about it.
…..(this site continiues at length – well worth visiting)…..Nigel.
50. ton
From the Robert Hare website…..
Key Symptoms of Psychopathy
Emotional/Interpersonal:
Glib and superficial
Egocentric and grandiose
Lack of remorse or guilt
Lack of empathy
Deceitful and manipulative
Shallow emotions
Social Deviance:
Impulsive
Poor behavior controls
Need for excitement
Lack of responsibility
Early behavior problems
Adult antisocial behavior
Glib and Superficial
Psychopaths are often voluble and verbally facile. They can be amusing and entertaining conversationalists, ready with a clever comeback, and are able to tell unlikely but convincing stories that cast themselves in a good light. They can be very effective in presenting themselves well and are often very likable and charming.
One of my raters described an interview she did with a prisoner: “I sat down and took out my clipboard,” she said, “and the first thing this guy told me was what beautiful eyes I had. He managed to work quite a few compliments on my appearance into the interview, so by the time I wrapped things up, I was feeling unusually… well, pretty. I’m a wary person, especially on the job, and can usually spot a phony. When I got back outside, I couldn’t believe I’d fallen for a line like that.”
Egocentric and Grandiose
Psychopaths have a narcissistic and grossly inflated view of their own self-worth and importance, a truly astounding egocentricity and sense of entitlement, and see themselves as the center of the universe, justified in living according to their own rules. “It’s not that I don’t follow the law,” said one subject. “I follow my own laws. I never violate my own rules.” She then proceeded to describe these rules in terms of “looking out for number one.”
Psychopaths often claim to have specific goals but show little appreciation regarding the qualifications required — they have no idea of how to achieve them and little or no chance of attaining these goals, given their track record and lack of sustained interest in formal education. The psychopathic inmate might outline vague plans to become a lawyer for the poor or a property tycoon. One inmate, not particularly literate, managed to copyright the title of a book he was planning to write about himself, already counting the fortune his best-selling book would bring.
Lack of Remorse or Guilt
Psychopaths show a stunning lack of concern for the effects their actions have on others, no matter how devastating these might be. They may appear completely forthright about the matter, calmly stating that they have no sense of guilt, are not sorry for the ensuing pain, and that there is no reason now to be concerned.
When asked if he had any regrets about stabbing a robbery victim who subsequently spent time in the hospital as a result of his wounds, one of our subjects replied, “Get real! He spends a few months in hospital and I rot here. If I wanted to kill him I would have slit his throat. That’s the kind of guy I am; I gave him a break.”
Their lack of remorse or guilt is associated with a remarkable ability to rationalize their behavior, to shrug off personal responsibility for actions that cause family, friends, and others to reel with shock and disappointment. They usually have handy excuses for their behavior, and in some cases deny that it happened at all.
Lack of Empathy
Many of the characteristics displayed by psychopaths are closely associated with a profound lack of empathy and inability to construct a mental and emotional “facsimile” of another person. They seem completely unable to “get into the skin” of others, except in a purely intellectual sense.
They are completely indifferent to the rights and suffering of family and strangers alike. If they do maintain ties, it is only because they see family members as possessions. One of our subjects allowed her boyfriend to sexually molest her five-year-old daughter because “he wore me out. I wasn’t ready for more sex that night.” The woman found it hard to understand why the authorities took her child into care.
Deceitful and Manipulative
With their powers of imagination in gear and beamed on themselves, psychopaths appear amazingly unfazed by the possibility — or even by the certainty — of being found out. When caught in a lie or challenged with the truth, they seldom appear perplexed or embarrassed — they simply change their stories or attempt to rework the facts so they appear to be consistent with the lie. The result is a series of contradictory statements and a thoroughly confused listener.
And psychopaths seem proud of their ability to lie. When asked if she lied easily, one woman laughed and replied, “I’m the best. I think it’s because I sometimes admit to something bad about myself. They think, well, if she’s admitting to that she must be telling the truth about the rest.”
Shallow Emotions
Psychopaths seem to suffer a kind of emotional poverty that limits the range and depth of their feelings. At times they appear to be cold and unemotional while nevertheless being prone to dramatic, shallow, and short-lived displays of feeling. Careful observers are left with the impression they are play acting and little is going on below the surface.
A psychopath in our research said that he didn’t really understand what others meant by fear. “When I rob a bank,” he said, “I notice that the teller shakes. One barfed all over the money. She must have been pretty messed up inside, but I don’t know why. If someone pointed a gun at me I guess I’d be afraid, but I wouldn’t throw up.” When asked if he ever felt his heart pound or his stomach churn, he replied, “Of course! I’m not a robot. I really get pumped up when I have sex or when I get into a fight.”
Impulsive
Psychopaths are unlikely to spend much time weighing the pros and cons of a course of action or considering the possible consequences. “I did it because I felt like it,” is a common response. These impulsive acts often result from an aim that plays a central role in most of the psychopath’s behavior: to achieve immediate satisfaction, pleasure, or relief.
So family members, relatives, employers, and coworkers typically find themselves standing around asking themselves what happened—jobs are quit, relationships broken off, plans changed, houses ransacked, people hurt, often for what appears as little more than a whim. As the husband of a psychopath I studied put it: “She got up and left the table, and that was the last I saw of her for two months.”
Poor Behavior Controls
Besides being impulsive, psychopaths are highly reactive to perceived insults or slights. Most of us have powerful inhibitory controls over our behavior; even if we would like to respond aggressively we are usually able to “keep the lid on.” In psychopaths, these inhibitory controls are weak, and the slightest provocation is sufficient to overcome them.
As a result, psychopaths are short-tempered or hotheaded and tend to respond to frustration, failure, discipline, and criticism with sudden violence, threats or verbal abuse. But their outbursts, extreme as they may be, are often short-lived, and they quickly act as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened.
For example, an inmate in line for dinner was accidentally bumped by another inmate, whom he proceeded to beat senseless. The attacker then stepped back into line as if nothing had happened. Despite the fact that he faced solitary confinement as punishment for the infraction, his only comment when asked to explain himself was, “I was pissed off. He stepped into my space. I did what I had to do.”
Although psychopaths have a “hair trigger,” their aggressive displays are “cold”; they lack the intense arousal experienced when other individuals lose their temper.
A Need for Excitement
Psychopaths have an ongoing and excessive need for excitement—they long to live in the fast lane or “on the edge,” where the action is. In many cases the action involves the breaking of rules.
Many psychopaths describe “doing crime” for excitement or thrills. When asked if she ever did dangerous things just for fun, one of our female psychopaths replied, “Yeah, lots of things. But what I find most exciting is walking through airports with drugs. Christ! What a high!”
The flip side of this yen for excitement is an inability to tolerate routine or monotony. Psychopaths are easily bored and are not likely to engage in activities that are dull, repetitive, or require intense concentration over long periods.
Lack of Responsibility
Obligations and commitments mean nothing to psychopaths. Their good intentions — “I’ll never cheat on you again” — are promises written on the wind.
Horrendous credit histories, for example, reveal the lightly taken debt, the loan shrugged off, the empty pledge to contribute to a child’s support. Their performance on the job is erratic, with frequent absences, misuse of company resources, violations of company policy, and general untrustworthiness. They do not honor formal or implied commitments to people, organizations, or principles.
Psychopaths are not deterred by the possibility that their actions mean hardship or risk for others. A 25-year-old inmate in our studies has received more than 20 convictions for dangerous driving, driving while impaired, leaving the scene of an accident, driving without a license, and criminal negligence causing death. When asked if he would continue to drive after his release from prison, he replied, “Why not? Sure, I drive fast, but I’m good at it. It takes two to have an accident.”
Early Behavior Problems
Most psychopaths begin to exhibit serious behavioral problems at an early age. These might include persistent lying, cheating, theft, arson, truancy, substance abuse, vandalism, and/or precocious sexuality. Because many children exhibit some of these behaviors at one time or another — especially children raised in violent neighborhoods or in disrupted or abusive families —it is important to emphasize that the psychopath’s history of such behaviors is more extensive and serious than most, even when compared with that of siblings and friends raised in similar settings.
One subject, serving time for fraud, told us that as a child he would put a noose around the neck of a cat, tie the other end of the string to the top of a pole, and bat the cat around the pole with a tennis racket. Although not all adult psychopaths exhibited this degree of cruelty when in their youth, virtually all routinely got themselves into a wide range of difficulties.
Adult Antisocial Behavior
Psychopaths see the rules and expectations of society as inconvenient and unreasonable impediments to their own behavioral expression. They make their own rules, both as children and as adults.
Many of the antisocial acts of psychopaths lead to criminal charges and convictions. Even within the criminal population, psychopaths stand out, largely because the antisocial and illegal activities of psychopaths are more varied and frequent than are those of other criminals. Psychopaths tend to have no particular affinity, or “specialty,” for one particular type of crime but tend to try everything.
But not all psychopaths end up in jail. Many of the things they do escape detection or prosecution, or are on “the shady side of the law.” For them, antisocial behavior may consist of phony stock promotions, questionable business practices, spouse or child abuse, and so forth. Many others do things that, though not necessarily illegal, are nevertheless unethical, immoral, or harmful to others: philandering or cheating on a spouse to name a few.
PRESENT MEMBERS OF THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS – ASK YOURSELVES WHETHER BURTON FITS THESE CRITERIA ABOVE
This post seems a little misplaced to me. Male students that are seduced and have sex with Robert Burton may relate to the impulsive and egocentric character attributes. I don’t think that male students that haven’t had sex him or female students could relate any of the above, other than perhaps the grandiose aspect; Burton is someone that they probably only see from a remote distance.
Imagine – if you can – not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern of the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken. And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools. Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless. You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience that they seldom even guess at your condition.
In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world. You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences, will most likely remain undiscovered.
How will you live your life? What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)? The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same….
etc.
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm
#46 and #52 are new
Shirley 46,
Thank fou for a very articulate post.
Regarding your fourth paragraph, I would like to add that many (I don’t know how many)FF members truly, truly believe in RB. They aren’t desperate about their financial or social condition, they do not wish to live anywhere else but Apollo, and they don’t understand why people are leaving this “only true School on Earth led by a conscious teacher”. When/if FoF collapses after RB’s demise, these are the ones that will be most devastated spiritually. The other ones you describe would be suffering financially and socially but they have already distanced themselves from the core; they are only still thre physically for all the reasons you describe. It is a tragedy.
Tragedy or justice? Are you implying that some folks don’t deserve the fruits of their labor?
Eventually excuses and extenuating circumstances don’t cut it. Unless of course, as Ton says, you have successfully smothered your conscience.
Let the chips fall where they may.
re 61 Agent 45 “ Tragedy or justice?“
If I follow my GPS to the setting of Death Valley, should I be surprised to find myself dying of thirst? Sure I may have been told and believed that this destination is actually a coverup for Paradise but that is putting a tiny part of my life under a microscope and doing that does not permit an intelligent point of view or perspective.
In the end and from a broader view justice is absolute. I should not be surprised to find that my errors in judgement lead to unexpected crap. On the flip side of that is the fantastic addendum to justice that I am perfectly able to reset that damned GPS at any moment that I wish. That allows me to change my hell into heaven instantly no matter how bad my present looks. I am almost tempted to say `Thank God for that`. Cheers!!!
60. Josiane – June 5, 2011
The only tragedy, Josiane, is their stupidity.
Spring cleaning! I worked for the Arts as a graphic designer when I was in the FOF and kept 10 or so CD’s and DVD’s because of the art work. They are video meetings with RB, and other stuff that was going on Arts wise I am going to chuck them in the trash unless someone would like them? Just need shipping reimbursement.
Roosje. email me at: prose@onemain.com
61, 63
I regret ending my post (60) with “It is a tragedy”. After I clicked “Post Comment” that day I quickly realized that some people on this blog will only focus on that last statement and not even consider reading what I was trying to say. So be it.
(60-65) Yes,” FoF members truly, truly believe in RB”, as RB truly, truly believe his crap.
Is hopeful-conscious-being-applicant’s denial different from established-conscious-being-achiever’s denial?
Yes , it’s a tragedy that you ended your post with: “it’s a tragedy”; and yes “it’s a tragedy” that someone will only focus on that last statement, but it’s no surprise for sure. A certain psychology might have left the cult but has not left the cultee. The same psychological attitude might have been eradicated from the Zoo-FoF but it might have found fertile ground in this blog. It’s a tragedy that we are so concerned with RB and his Fofids when the Universe is taking perfect care of everything. It’s a tragedy that sarcasm goes undetected and when taken seriously it is pompously responded to and explained. It’s a tragedy that the motto ‘repetita juvant’ has been taken to a new unfathomable extreme.
It’s a tragedy… and yet… it’s a lot of fun!
(37) “…is that wishing suffering on someone because of their harmful actions is just more of the same suffering and harm coming right back. It’s the same energy or vibe that created the suffering.”
Now… this line of thinking is a tragedy!
66 JD
Well, this tragedy is the New Age bullshit thinking.
´´We All One´´! .. my ass.
CHAOS THEORY: INTERFACE WITH JUNGIAN PSYCHOLOGY
The Order/Chaos Relationship in Complex Systems
by Gerald Schueler, Ph.D. © 1997
Abstract.
One of the important findings of modern chaos theory is that seeds of order seem to be embedded in chaos, while seeds of chaos are apparently embedded in order. Systems that are stable in relation to their environment can become unstable. Systems that are unstable can return to stability. Another important finding is that the behavior of a system in stability and its behavior after becoming unstable are acausal. These findings can be transposed to Jungian psychology by assuming the psyche to be a dynamic dissipative system as defined in chaos theory. The psyche functions in our causal space-time continuum via the conscious ego, but also functions in a psychic continuum which is wholly unconscious to the ego. Events that intercept both continuums are acausal and are said to be synchronistic. This paper investigates the relationship between the conscious ego (order) and the personal and collective unconscious (chaos). It proposes that Jung’s personal unconscious is a psychological ‘edge of chaos,’ a psychic region of complexity bridging the acausal gap between the collective unconscious and the conscious ego.
Hee Hoo laffs lass, laffs lass !
After thinking about sociopaths I discovered this test. I did this test on my self. Then I filled it in for some of my best friends. very interesting. Got to work on boundaries.
http://www.allthetests.com/quiz18/quizpu.php?testid=1140475124
Filling it out for how I perceive Robert Burton got me to a 100 % sociopath.
(Need to refresh the website over and over as it will not resend, very educational enjoy)
71. another name
Not sure that anyone, other than REB, has been or was truly sociopathic, in the FOF. However…..
PsychosisFrom Wikipedia
Not to be confused with Psychopathy.
For other uses, see Psychosis
Psychosis (from the Greek ψυχή “psyche”, for mind/soul, and -ωσις “-osis”, for abnormal condition) means abnormal condition of the mind, and is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a “loss of contact with reality”. People suffering from psychosis are described as psychotic. Psychosis is given to the more severe forms of psychiatric disorder, during which hallucinations and delusions and impaired insight may occur.[1] Some professionals say that the term psychosis is not sufficient as some illnesses grouped under the term “psychosis” have nothing in common (Gelder, Mayou & Geddes 2005).
People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and thought disorder. Depending on its severity, this may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behavior, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the daily life activities.
A wide variety of central nervous system diseases, from both external poisons and internal physiologic illness, can produce symptoms of psychosis.
I HAVE MANAGED TO AVOID MY ANNUAL PSYCHOTIC EPISODE THIS YEAR, MAINLY BY MAINTAINING MY HEAVY MEDICATION REGIME. I DON’T REALLY WANT TO SWAP MY PRACTICALITY FOR ‘ALTERED STATES’, HOWEVER EXCITING. LIFE ITSELF IS REAL ENOUGH AND ANGELS ARE ALWAYS WITH US…..NIGEL.
Dear Nigel
When you get what you need and have a way to heal yourself that is what counts. I am happy for you.
I am involved in a project which looks at addiction in the population. The question at this moment is:”: Are addictions inherited or are addictions acquired”. Then there is the theory of the 5 adverse childhood experiences under the age of 3 with a increased likelihood of addictions/ personality disorder. My personal experience in interviews with people with personality disorders/addictions is, they can not remember all the “trauma under the age of 3”. People working with hypnoses and or re birthing, EMDR, report of many of children trauma’s in early childhood. Uncovered in the session and unknown for years.
At this point what happens early in childhood will be repeated in different forms later in childhood and different phases of our lives. It correlates with my view of my live and the people I deal with. My personal conviction is: early unresolved childhood trauma’s rule our unconscious live and decisions.
Here one expert which has a lot to share Gabor Mate. More youtubes about his experiences.
(71)
“Filling it out for how I perceive Robert Burton got me to a 100 % sociopath.”
You or him?
And?
…Because I filled it out for how I perceive it and I got close results for me and you guys!
So?
What can I do to put you in this “perception” today?
(72)
“…AND ANGELS ARE ALWAYS WITH US…..”
Ha, ha, ha, ha…. Very good! Very good! Yeeeeeeeeeeeey…!
re. 73 another name
“ I am involved in a project which looks at addiction in the population. The question at this moment is:”: Are addictions inherited or are addictions acquired”.
I found the video very interesting and my reaction to it was that I want to participate. However I will float one idea here with the hope that it might be helpful.
Dr. Mate is focused on addictions which have negative results and he does that well. I suggest that we are all addicts as well but that some of the results are positive. I include our personal beliefs, our personal knowledge(?), as addictions or when more mildly neurologically programmed they are called habits. If I were a scientist interested in this field I would concentrate on discovering better ways to get people addicted to the positive outcomes, the positive habits or addictions. Tools such as hypnosis and NLP would certainly be helpful. Empowerment would always be a goal but a big problem to be overcome is that the person does not feel a need for change. That makes it rather difficult . A heroin addicted friend who had lost everything as described in the video and more told me that very belief (addiction). quote, “ When I find something better, I`ll switch.“ This was very intuitive and I am positive that he was not visualizing that there could possibly be anything better as he said.
Yet from our point of view there are hundreds if not thousands of things which are better than his habit, addiction. How does one convince him? That is where the work really is.
Thank you for the information. You see, my gratefulness is an addiction. My wish to help another is an addiction and let me tell you that it has caused me a lot of pain at times. I needed to become aware of this and to come to a decision as to what I intended to do about it. Many of the ideas that I adopted during my stay in the fof also became some of my addictions and many still are. I don`t see anything but good coming from them so I don`t see any reason to change those beliefs (which they eventually became). They become impulsive to me just like to the shopaholic, no different. One of the ingredients necessary in order to permit the strength and opportunity to change is to get away from the trigger for a sufficient time. You certainly cannot introduce any possibilities to someone high on drugs, inner or outer, or can one? To be determined.
Still we have to find a way which acts as a substitute and provides an equally or better rush for the addict. They do exist and given the correct conditions they can be tranferred thus providing the cure, so to speak. Onoponono or whatever it is called comes to mind although that is really taking these ideas to an extreme. Can we really have this effect on others? Worth a try, I`d say. Yet I recommend finding something that would be more readily accepted by the average therapist.
Cheers!!
73. another name / 75. Renald
This whole thing about addiction – is not our constant posting on the blog (especially mine, since I have been here for several years now) an addiction of some sort? Our intellectual/emotional lives receive reactions of various kinds – support, mostly – sometimes being chided at our short-sighted approach to others – praise when we come across something that gives a ‘positive push’ to the blog. It would certainly be a ‘hole in my life’ if I could not come home to and/or wake up to nourishing material on the FOF Discussion site…..Nigel.
Antisocial Personality Disorder
INFO Definition
Antisocial personality disorder is a psychiatric condition in which a person manipulates, exploits, or violates the rights of others. This behavior is often criminal.
Alternative Names
Psychopathic personality; Sociopathic personality; Personality disorder – antisocial
Causes, incidence, and risk factors
Personality disorders are long-term (chronic) patterns of behaviors and relationships that interfere with a person’s life over many years.
The cause of antisocial personality disorder is unknown. Genetic factors and child abuse are believed to contribute to the development of this condition. People with an antisocial or alcoholic parent are at increased risk. Far more men than women are affected. The condition is common in prison populations.
Fire-setting and cruelty to animals during childhood are linked to the development of antisocial personality.
Symptoms
A person with antisocial personality disorder:
Breaks the law repeatedly
Lies, steals, and fights often
Disregards the safety of self and others
Does not show any guilt
Signs and tests
To receive a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder, a person must have shown behaviors of conduct disorder during childhood.
People with antisocial personality disorder may have the following signs:
Anger and arrogance
Capable of acting witty and charming
Good at flattery and manipulating other people’s emotions
Substance abuse and legal problems
Treatment
Antisocial personality disorder is one of the most difficult personality disorders to treat. People with this condition rarely seek treatment on their own. They may only start therapy when required to by a court.
The effectiveness of treatment for antisocial personality disorder is not known.
Expectations (prognosis)
Symptoms tend to peak during the late teenage years and early 20’s. They may improve on their own by a person’s 40’s.
Complications
Complications can include imprisonment and drug abuse.
76-77 Nigel
Yes, it is the same process. It also is an example of substituting one habit for another. It requires time and effort which could otherwise be used to reinforce an original unwanted behavior habit. Another example: If our friend Dr. Mate was occupied climbing Mount Everest for a couple weeks or so with some skilled climbers there would be little time or effort left over for shopping. Making it to the top of a rock face using a rope would provide an exhilarating rush and repetition of such experiences would lead to a desire to have more, a habit. Okay so choosing Mount Everest for the first try is a crazy exageration but I was just rambling, one of my habits. Whether I decide to stay up after going to the bathroom after 7.5 hours of sleep is based on habits. When the habit is still weak, another habit may sway my decision or desire one way or the other. In this case I switched on the cpu to check on the outside temperature, a silly habit really since the site is usually incorrect. That it is incorrect does not matter if it is a habit. This will often lead lately to checking this blog as you said to see if anything interesting (again it does not really matter if it is interesting or not) and here we both are again. All that is required for this procession of habits to change is a lack of time or energy and the influence of a different habit. Our behaviour IS mechanical or habitual, all the way down to whether I spell the word the British or American way albeit this is also extreme but in the extremely non-important level. Yet if I make a habit of considering whether I should spell it one way or the other it will become habitual for me to do so and so gain importance in my life. Going through steps as suggested by the fof in order to be rewarded also becomes habitual, after all one is expecting to be rewarded so it would not be surprising if there actually was some kind of reward felt after going through those steps. This can be called programming. That is the beauty of it. It is a recipe for change and change in one`s life is or can certainly be rewarding in itself. Change and whatever it implies can also be addictive. In other words it also can lead to good or bad results and it`s pursuit can become a time and effort consuming habit. At that moment in time one can either become compulsive and thereby suffer those results or decide to make another change, that of taking a break, a rest, or a vacation even. Driving a car in Spanish is called `manejar` or manage. We are managers. We decide if it is better to drive slow or fast under every condition. This is based on our past experiences so it is behavioral, just like everything else. There is no mystery there from my point of view. Others may have different habits of thought or beliefs and claim that everything I have posted today is a crock. That decision is also based on personal habits or personality. It is not a matter of right or wrong but simply a matter of individual addictions for which each individual is in a way responsible. There are billions to choose from so take your pick and enjoy. I would recommend the ones which keep you out of jail or the morgue but ultimately it is your choice and nobody else`s. Cheers!!
Re. 78–an afterthought: How surprised would you be if when you woke up tomorrow morning you found that you had decided to change your opinion to a more positive one regarding post no. 78 ? Then later how surprised would you be if you found that making that change caused you to understand much more about your past ? Would that be fun since gaining the ability to make changes at will and more quickly and effortlessly allow for more time and energy and so on. Seems to me that there is plenty of time for so much more interesting stuff.
Okay, okay. Nothing more on this subject unless there is sufficient demand.
Cheers!!
78/79. Renald
There are good (life – promoting) habits and grinding (mechanicality – promoting) habits. We can choose and we can overcome our being stupified or becoming ‘natural’. Let us be free in what we offer to the blog…..Nigel.
(80)
There are worse (blog-constipation-promoting) habits, and worst (blog-killing-mental-masturbation-promoting) habits
“Let us be free in what we offer to the blog….”
NO! Please….NO! I beg you…. Don’t….!
there are many “good reasons” to stay — for example:
When a cult leader tells the public, “Members are free to leave any time they want; the door is open,” they give the impression that members have free will and are simply choosing to stay. Actually, members may not have a real choice, because they have been indoctrinated to have a phobia of the outside world. Induced phobias eliminate the psychological possibility of a person choosing to leave the group merely because he is unhappy or wants to do something else… individuals in cults who have been taught that bad things will happen to them should they leave will be no more “free” to exit those environments than someone who is petrified of the water would be “free” to go swimming.
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/index.html#stgtoc
from surfing Internet – ‘false gurus’…..
TAKE THE FALSE GURU TEST. If seven or more of the following describes your guru or spiritual teacher, then unfortunately he or she may not be be as enlightened or good for your soul as you would like to believe:
1.States his or her own enlightenment: The wisest masters tend not to state their own enlightenment or perfection for they know that it is both unhelpful to themselves and to their students. The false teachers often make this claim because they have little else on offer to attract followers.
2.Is unable to take criticism: False teachers strongly dislike either personal criticism or criticism of their teaching; they do not take kindly to ordinary unenlightened individuals questioning them. They or their organisations will even undertake multi-million dollar law suits to stop ex-members from spilling the beans.
3.Acts omnipotently with no accountability: Some spiritual communities are run like concentration camps, with guru and his chosen ones acting like Gestapo officers. Unjust or outrageous behaviour by the guru is passed off as what is needed to help the followers grow (how kind). These are the dangerous gurus who have often severely damaged their students. A real master respects your will even if he or she understands that your particular decisions may not be in your interest, and he or she will act accountably to an ethical code of conduct.
4.Focuses on enlightenment itself rather than teaching the path leading to it: It is amazing how much false gurus have to say about enlightenment. They argue their points in the same way that the scholars in the middle ages argued how many angels could sit on the head of a pin. Any fool can talk about the end goal because what is said is irrefutable to most of your listeners. What is skillful is guiding those listeners to having awakening within themselves. The real teacher focuses on the path and strictly avoids any talk on enlightenment.
5.Does not practice what is preached: Contrary to spiritual myth, you don’t reach a point of realization whereby you can then start acting mindlessly. If a teacher preaches love and forgiveness, then he should act that way, at least most of the time, showing suitable regret for any lapses). If he teaches meditation, he should meditate. If he insists that his followers live in austere conditions, so should he.
6.Takes the credit for a particular meditative or healing technique: The fact is that meditation and guided visualisation work. Anyone doing them will experience major changes, benefits and realizations. The false guru will try to own or trademark particular methods and techniques so that she has something unique to attract followers. And she will hijack the effects of meditation as the guru’s blessing rather than each individuals natural potential. Often the students or followers are forbidden from divulging the techniques to maintain a sort of intellectual property right, usually under the guise of needing the technique to be taught correctly.
7.Specifically gives satsang or darshan when it is not part of his culture: Darshan is when the disciples or students of a master line up and to pass their master, who is usually seated, with either a bow or traditionally kissing their feet (yes it does happen). In the East, this is part of their culture and a normal thing to do to show respect and reverence (even children will kiss the feet of their fathers). However, here in the West, such copycat behaviour is a strong indication that the guru is acting a role. Satsang, on the other hand, means literally “the company of the Truth”. In a deeper sense it is an affirmation of the Guru-Disciple relationship in Eastern traditions. But some Western gurus will use this terminology because they are playing a role.
8.Lives in total opulence: There is nothing wrong with living in luxury or being wealthy. But when that luxury turns to unnecessary opulence using funds that were not explicity donated for that purpose then you are probably dealing with a false guru. Money is collected from followers usually in the form of donations, and those donations are given as an act of love, appreciation and to help spread the influence of the master. However, a genuine master is more likely to use such wealth to lessen the suffering in this world, not to buy another yacht, private jet or Rolls Royce.
9.Encourages or permits adoration from his followers: Avoid any group that focuses on the “master” themselves rather than the teachings or spiritual practices. This will be a hindrance to your self-realisation for your focus will be drawn outside of yourself, and usually indicates that there is not a lot more on offer than guru worship.
10.Presents himself or herself overly fashionably and glamorously: Beware of masters who present glamour photographs of themselves and dress overly fashionably (whilst proclaiming that they have no ego and leading ego-death retreats). Yes it does happen!
11.Demands love and devotion from their students: Keep clear of any master who demands love and devotion. One very well known Western guru stated, “Anyone who loves me is guaranteed enlightenment”! Real love and devotion is earned over time when we begin to really know the whole person and not their public image.
12.Speaks with an Indian accent or vernacular when he is in fact a Westerner: Not sure how much this happens now but there are some high profile Western gurus who have (or had) Indian accents, mannerisms and vernacular. Unless they have genuinely spent considerable time in other cultures, they are probably playing out a role.
13.Runs expensive miracle workshops and courses: You are unlikely to reach enlightenment after a few weekend workshops with cheesy titles. In our society of “must have now”, we want to be able to purchase spiritual development with minimal fuss. Also, avoid meaningless accreditation — it is often used merely to encourage followers to do more courses.
14.Takes sexual advantage of his or her followers: This happens much more than many believe. It is not being prudish to include this one because when a follower falls under the spell of a guru he or she is likely to do anything for the Chosen One. It is only afterwards that it may dawn on the follower that his or her openness has been used and abused. This can be very psychologically scarring.
15.Flatters you and treats you as very special: Sure we are all special in some ways, but this is one of the things that a false guru may do to hook a potential follower or to get a current follower to do a particular task. Nothing can be more intoxicating to the ego than to be selected by the master or leader (or any high profile person). A real master will stand back and allow you to make your decision whether to accept his or her teachings without trying to influence the process.
16.Talks bollocks: It is surprising what a person will listen to when he or she is devoted to the speaker. It is always a good idea to get hold of a written transcript of what has been said and really read the message. Then tell an open-minded friend who is not a follower what their opinion is purely on the strength of the words. You will soon find out whether there is any real substance to the teacher’s message, or whether you are merely being drawn in by the charisma of the messenger.
17.Overly relies on slick presentation: Slick presentation can often mask poor content, and so it is important for you to look past the lovely music and video shows at the actual message. The slicker the presentation, the harder it is to see what exactly the teaching is.
18.Gives him or herself outrageous titles: Not satisfied by being “merely” an enlightened being, many false gurus give themselves titles (or allow their followers to do so) to indicate that they are literally God-Incarnate, the reincarnation of the Buddha or Christ, or THE chosen one. Some continually change their names, to keep pace with their burgeoning egos.
19.Runs abundance workshops: A guru or master is there to help us find an authentic life. This is nothing to do with becoming more successful at work or making more money, although this may or may not follow from being more authentic. There is nothing wrong with abundance weekends, but if we mistake spirituality for increased business success, then we are guilty of spiritual materialism and we find ourselves deeper in the illusion. (The Japanese say that the Gods laugh at those who pray for money.)
20.Is not interested in you personally: If a teacher or guru does not have time to interact with you personally, then you may as well read his teaching from a book, because merely being in his presence doesn’t help you find realization inside you. You may model some of his spiritual characteristics, but that often only places you deeper in illusion.
21.Allows his followers to set up a hierarchy of access: A guru must be accessible. If he is not, or if he allows his followers to block your access, then he is playing the role of a king and not a spiritual guide. A guru is only useful to the process of awakening if you can directly interact with him. With the false guru, it is often the case of the more you donate the greater your access.
22.Makes false claims of lineage: Many mistakenly believe that realisation can only happen under the guidance of a realized master. In this belief system, gurus are only authentic when they come from a line or lineage of realized gurus. Desperate not to be left out, some gurus claim a false lineage of enlightened masters to bolster their authority to teach. Another pseudo form of “lineage” is to recount a miracle that once happened to them (maybe they cured themselves of some disease or God spoke to them personally) which infers that they are “chosen” and therefore have the authority to set themselves up as teachers and gurus.
23.Presents themselves as non-profit whilst raking in the millions: Often, the false prophet will present her teachings for free, whilst strongly encouraging her devotees to make large donations. In this way she can appear above money considerations, whilst maintaining her greed and opulence.
24.Collects a large band of angry ex-followers: This is an indication that something is seriously wrong. If she has used kindness and love in her interactions with her students, and has discouraged them from projecting denied spiritual characteristics onto the guru (rather than encouraging their integration into the self), then it is extremely unlikely that there would be more than a few disheartened ex’s. Many might drift away and feel they have wasted their time, but they are only likely to have the great anger if they have put their teacher on a pedestal, given him their power, and later realized that he was never worthy of such adoration. Contrary to what some believe, it is actually the teacher’s responsibility to strongly discourage students from putting them on pedestals, for this is counterproductive to finding realisation inside.
25.Uses pseudo-technology: Many false prophets and organisations base themselves around pseudo-technology in the effort to appear scientific — special meters, communication devices (do you really expect the aliens to use a mobile?) and energy clearing instruments and pendants that involve crystals and copper wire. Once again, this is to distract the unwary from the poor quality of the actual teaching.
26.Acts like a complete paranoid mad person: If your Precious One acts like a complete paranoid schizophrenic or psychotic then he or she probably is. Run! Remember that there is no such thing as “crazy wisdom”—wisdom is the art of being balanced. However charismatic they may be, and sane between moments of madness, you WILL be damaged by them.
Twenty-two out of twenty-six is probably pretty bad. The other four I am not sure about. Case closed. Cheers!!
I heard from a reliable source that Robert has AIDS.
Is there any attempt to protect the men he is involved with?
The Gods working with `the school` decide who is going to get aids and who is going to only have strokes or cancer. When I started to observe so many healthy young people coming down with serious diseases or just plain dying I immediately knew there was something wrong. This was one of the leading factors which led to my waking up and leaving. Cheers!!
Hey Nige,
Besides the accent, all are fit.
Wendy,
Unfortunatly not. They use no condoms.
#85 silentpurr
Could you please give us any details you have, so we can determine whether this is just a rumor? Why is this source reliable? How many people know this already?
Any idea when he contracted it, so we can possibly determine who and how many people might have been exposed?
If Burton got it, that´s bad news. It will mean that half of the fellowship got it as well.
In any case, we have to move even faster to bring him to justice. He must be convicted before he dies.
Well, if the big boss has AIDS, people who have been in sexual contact with him should go and have an HIV test. Nowadays, one can experience some quality in their life before the disease really kicks in. Also, any man or woman who were partners with young males who were Burton’s favorites should check themselves (and boy there are hundreds…). Taking care of oneself is not something one learns in the Fellowship of Friends…
silentpurr No. 85 ~
On the assertion that Teacher Robert Burton has Aids (a different diagnosis than HIV Positive) and as such must be manifesting serious symptoms of his illness that cannot be hidden or denied any longer…
This news is not surprising considering his long time preference for orgies and unprotected sex with an almost infinite number of male Students.
This is sad news and heartbreaking to think he may have radically increased exponentially the number of HIV Positive and Aids cases internationally through out the world, by his pathological promiscuity…
IF the rumor is in fact factual the male students better run far and fast because he will claim that he now needs to double his energy fixes.
for the unaware…..
from Teens Health (website) – HIV and AIDS
AIDS is one of the most serious, deadly diseases in human history.
More than 20 years ago, doctors in the United States identified the first cases of AIDS in San Francisco and New York. Now there are an estimated 42 million people living with HIV or AIDS worldwide, and more than 3 million die every year from AIDS-related illnesses.
AIDS is caused by the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). HIV destroys a type of defense cell in the body called a CD4 helper lymphocyte (pronounced: lim-fuh-site). These lymphocytes are part of the body’s immune system, the defense system that fights infectious diseases. But as HIV destroys these lymphocytes, people with the virus begin to get serious infections that they normally wouldn’t — that is, they become immune deficient. The name for this condition is acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS).
As the medical community learns more about how HIV works, they’ve been able to develop drugs to inhibit it (meaning they interfere with its growth). These drugs have been successful in slowing the progress of the disease, and people with the disease now live much longer. But there is still no cure for HIV and AIDS.
Hundreds of U.S. teens become infected with HIV each year. HIV can be transmitted from an infected person to another person through blood, semen (also known as “cum,” the fluid released from the penis when a male ejaculates), vaginal fluids, and breast milk.
The virus is spread through high-risk behaviors including:
•unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sexual intercourse (“unprotected” means not using a condom)
•sharing needles, such as needles used to inject drugs (including needles used for injecting steroids) and those used for tattooing
People who have another sexually transmitted disease, such as syphilis, genital herpes, chlamydia, gonorrhea, or bacterial vaginosis are at greater risk for getting HIV during sex with infected partners.
If a woman with HIV is pregnant, her newborn baby can catch the virus from her before birth, during the birthing process, or from breastfeeding. If doctors know an expectant mother has HIV, they can usually prevent the spread of the virus from mother to baby. All pregnant teens and women should be tested for HIV so they can begin treatment if necessary.
Hey Nigel! Have you been hearing the Humm lately?
“U.K. village Woodland plagued by mysterious ‘Hum’ rumble“
I have a theory…………it could be caused by intense resistance to the fof.
Some people all over the globe are hearing it, most do not. I guess they are just not attuned to it.
**************************************************************************
Let’s hope that Robert Burton’s sexual partners and their sexual
partners have the good sense to get a free HIV test. Are you at
risk for having contracted HIV? If you have been sexually active
while being a Fellowship of Friends Student with another Student,
even if in a non-monogamous relationship*, why not get tested?
The closest FREE HIV TEST for women AND men nearest to
Oregon House is 35 miles away (via CA 20 E) in Grass Valley.
The Clinic at Women’s Health Specialists
120 Richardson St . Suite A
Grass Valley, CA 95945
(800) 714-8151
This location offers a walk-in, no appt. necessary, free HIV test
Mondays 10:30 am – 5:30 pm
and
Wednesdays 12 pm – 6 pm
Qualifications for the free test:
Income under $1,800 a month
Under age 55
Men – Have NOT had a vasectomy
Women- Have not had a hysterectomy or ‘tubes tied’
* If you are part of or have been associated with a Fellowship
of Friends centre in another city and think you may be at risk,
try Googling Free HIV test and the name of your city. Call
and ask for a referral for a free HIV test clinic.
May everyone test negative and be HIV free! Good luck!
* Not everyone shares with their partner, girlfriend, boyfriend,
wife, or husband who they’ve had sex with. Sometimes one
is not told.
************************************************************************
The guy must be putted away. He is dangerous to people in so many ways.
Please contact FBI, IRS, INS.. do something.. enought talking..
Wendy: 89
#85 silentpurr
Could you please give us any details you have, so we can determine whether this is just a rumor? Why is this source reliable? How many people know this already?
Well?
J.D., You know what… if only cult members would bring that same sort of questioning and skepticism to ALL things FOF… Picture for a moment how that would change things.
If Burton does have AIDS… honestly, is there any reason to be surprised? Hundreds, if not thousands of different partners over a few decades. By all accounts, largely with unprotected sex. At least two FOF followers that I know of dying of AIDS. And the cause of their deaths swept under the rug, of course.
The bigger question is not “whether this is just a rumor”. It’s whether the so-called rumor is gentler than the reality. silentpurr, thanks for sharing that information.
re. 99 “ At least two FOF followers that I know of dying of AIDS. And the cause of their deaths swept under the rug, of course.“
The main way of sweeping their deaths under the rug is to send them away from close contact as soon as they come down with HIV Positive or AIDS and other STD`s. However eventually this becomes too little too late as the info may not be available or the diseases may not be diagnosed in time. I can easily understand why those with close contacts with his boys might be getting jittery especially since the disease can be passed on to newborns and family.
@85
Okay, silentpurr, you picked a good moniker.
If this is true and provable – not a whisper or a rumor from anonymous sources – then it should go to the local and regional press.
But first it should go to whatever local agencies deal with AIDS (I have heard that they are already alerted to the potential danger in the 95962 community.) A Peruvian student married to an American, P1lar, was at one time working with AIDS in Yuba County, but I don’t know what her circumstances are now, and whether she might be under pressure to be silent.
This could affect potentially hundreds of lives.
That said, this looks suspiciously like a rumor. A few years back an STD purportedly crawled through the Galleria network, and there were a lot of angry and surprised spouses, embarrassed men, and health service tests. Nothing like that appears to be taking place now, under a much greater risk.
Whenever the whiff of a rumor sets off a series of blog lectures, speculation, and sermonizing, it undermines the credibility of this venue. We all know that AIDS and other STDs are an ongoing risk at Apollo, and it’s good to warn people – but not in a rumor-driven avalanche. That just convinces the potential audience – that is, the current FOFers – that the blog hyperbolizes and promotes lies.
And that makes it harder to get through to them.
“If this is true and provable – not a whisper or a rumor from anonymous sources – then it should go to the local and regional press” [Wendy, No. 101]
I don’t think that is the way it’s done… I don’t think that the press is notified when someone contracts AIDS. But maybe they would be in case like this?
Because of the Teacher – Student sexual play? Because of the possible virus transmission in Oregon House could then cause a massive outbreak of AIDS?
Golden Veil,
Of course you’re right. But because of the ramifications for hundreds of individuals, it might spark another cult update article with the new information as a possible news hook – which would serve the same purpose of getting people to get a checkup.
Again, I’m not sure that silentpurr, or his/her informant, isn’t simply stirring the pot. It’s usually a bad idea to cry wolf.
I think it would be wise to get more confirmation than just the one posting that Robert indeed is either HIV positive or has AIDS. it would also be useful to know if it is HIV versus AIDS because of the ramifications involved.
@104
Agreed. And that is my point. This is not a trivial charge to be bandied about as a recreation. It would impact many, many lives. It would require urgent, responsible action from anyone who is a party to the truth.
To imply the FOF of suppressing this information – information vital to the very lives of so many – is a very big deal, too.
I, for one, do not believe that, say, FOF doctors and those in the know would hide this information at the cost of so many lives. That’s why I suspect this is only a rumor.
But hey, I was a member of the FOF for years. I could be naive about that, as well as so many other things.
106. Golden Veil
“Yes, if Robert Burton is HIV positive or has full blown AIDS, the responsible thing for him to do, would be to inform every man that he has has sex with.”
Maybe you forget, or do not agree with, the fact that Burton is a psychopath and, as such, places himself and others in high-risk situations without applying a whisper of conscience. He is incapable of guilt or remorse and will probably, upon his demise, be placed in that pyramid-structure that some blogger put an image of on this site. It will be interesting to see how much support he carries then and whether G—-d H—n, L—a T—–o and others will be able to maintain the momentum of such a disgusting lie as the Fellowship of Friends was, is and will be.
FoF blog page:
18/#429. on 18 Aug 2007 at 8:17 am
Wouldn’t you like to know posted:
‘Wouldn’t you like to know’ tells how a person could be a virtual killing machine with HIV while being virtually immune to HIV/AIDS themselves.
‘Wouldn’t you like to know’ personally knew or knows
3 persons that stated their personal experience was
having directly contracted HIV from RB or from participating
in Fellowship of Friends style sex activity.
1. Richard F.; now dead.
2. Philip Mac G.; assumed living.
3. Ren…..C.; now dead.
(There could be others.)
Now, they could have been mistaken. Or, it needs to be proven. Cause of death could have been officially something else.
But, do you want to risk your life on having sex in order to become conscious or near conscious? Does that possibility thrill you? I mean, is that what you need to reach third state?
Here’s how:
Recently seen on PBS (Public Broadcasting Service – USA) :
Genetics and epidemiology studies have found that there are 2 factors that confer immunity to HIV. The 2 factors are genetic mutations that occur naturally in the population. They happen to be the appearance of one or two copies of certain genes. [As best as I can remember/tell it. See citations/links below for the details.]
There are people who have neither of these 2 factors; no immunity.
There are people who have only one factor; partial immunity.
There are people who have both factors; full immunity.
Other diseases have selected from the population those persons with partial or full immunity (presence of one or two factors) by killing off those that lacked these factors. Other deadly diseases use some of the same techniques that
HIV/AIDS uses.
So, let’s just say that a person with the 2 factors/full immunity
contracts HIV, and does not become ill or show any signs,
(read: If I have HIV, I do not want to know about it.), and
then has risky sexual and/or other contacts with people
(like the kiss of death – tag, you are it.), they are a virtual
killing machine to those with no immunity and a possible
killing machine to those with limited immunity.
Knowing this and still putting others at risk demonstrates a lack of CONSCIENCE and the actions of an Hasnamuss.
Science Daily:
Smallpox In Europe Selected For Genetic Mutation
That Confers Resistance To HIV Infection:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/11/031120074728.htm
[See later postings for more links; number of links per post is limited]
The Tech; Understanding Genetics:
Ask a Geneticist; Dr. Barry Starr, Stanford University:
Is there a genetic reason some people survived
the plague during the middle ages?
http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=10
More from FoF blog page:
18/#429. on 18 Aug 2007 at 8:17 am
Wouldn’t you like to know posted:
A Relative Of Smallpox Is First Virus Found To Invade Cells As HIV Does:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/12/991206072126.htm
[This is an updated article link as original from 18/#429 has expired.]
More from FoF blog page:
18/#429. on 18 Aug 2007 at 8:17 am
Wouldn’t you like to know posted:
‘The PBS program I saw showed how a gay man that
had the genetics for virtual full immunity unknowingly
was killing many of his lovers.
See PBS NOVA: Surviving AIDS:
Excerpt:
NARRATOR: [O]ne of those [blood] samples revealed an amazing secret. Some people who’d been exposed to H.I.V. but were not infected were missing the gene responsible for the CCR-5 receptor. Without that gene, they produced a defective form of CCR-5 that never got expressed on the surface of their immune cells.
STEPHEN J. O’BRIEN: If you don’t make a proper CCR-5 gene, there is no CCR-5 produced on the surface of his T cells or macrophages, and if that happens when they’re exposed to H.I.V., it simply doesn’t get in, because the door’s shut. They absolutely require the CCR-5 molecule in order to enter these cells.
NARRATOR: One of the first samples with the missing CCR-5 gene came from Steve Crohn.
STEVE CROHN: So, for me it’s like a key—the virus comes with this, it’s looking for a two-holed keyhole. I don’t have one of the holes. Period. It’s never going to attach to me.
NARRATOR: Steve Crohn’s natural immunity to H.I.V. is rare, but it has been found in other people.
STEPHEN J. O’BRIEN: And that, really, it was a natural genetic solution to a fatal retro viral disease, and it was even more alluring because it turned out that patients who had two copies of this virulent … (inaudible), those that were resistant to infection, were actually quite healthy. Many of them had no immunological disease, or any problems associated with this generic variant. In fact, this genetic variant wasn’t a disease; it was a benefit.
****** ****
STEVE CROHN: What’s hard is living with the continuous grief. You kept losing people every year—six people, seven people. Last week, a friend of mine’s obit. was in the paper. It’s not easy, when you’re losing friends and you’re that young, and it goes on for such a long period of time. And the only thing you could compare it to would be to be in a war.
****** ****
NARRATOR: It is only now, twenty years into the epidemic, that scientists are grasping the significance of that small group of people who break the rules of AIDS infection. One of them is Steve Crohn, a witness to the earliest days of the epidemic, in a very personal way.
STEVE CROHN: In January, 1978, Jerry Green, my partner, became sick with flu-like symptoms, and that continued, for a while. Jerry’s progression of his disease went on for fifteen months, in which time he suffered a number of debilitating, wasting—He went blind in one eye, he had cylimegala (?) virus. When he actually passed, on March 4, 1982, there was no such disease as what we call AIDS.
NARRATOR: But, in fact, Crohn’s partners was one of the first deaths from AIDS in the U.S. When the H.I.V. virus was discovered, in 1984, Crohn worried that he’d been infected.
STEVE CROHN: There is always this underlying suspicion that, sooner or later, it might find its way into my system, and not because I had lived a very promiscuous life style but just because there was something out there that was invisible, that was transmissible by blood products, or human or vaginal uses, whatever, and that were you exposed. And there are a lot of people that don’t know how to take care of themselves.
NARRATOR: But despite repeated exposures to H.I.V., Steve Crohn remained uninfected.
STEVE CROHN: I don’t know why I was surviving. I remember talking about with somebody, at a family party, and they said, Well, why aren’t they studying you? Like, when you look at families, all the children have some malfunction, or bone—or some genetic disease, or whatever, they study the child that is not. And most of the studies were not studying H.I.V.-negative people, at all.
NARRATOR: Crohn volunteered for a study at the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center, in New York. Dr. David Ho, a pioneer in anti-AIDS cocktail therapy, is now looking for new ways to attack H.I.V. by studying people who have resisted infection.
DAVID HO, MD: I think we have learned, in science, that by studying outliers, the extreme result, here and there, you could really learn a great deal about what is happening in the normal situation.
NARRATOR: Ho took cells from Steve Crohn’s blood and flooded them with H.I.V., in test tubes.
DAVID HO, MD: He and one other person turned out to have cells that were resistant to H.I.V. infection, while the cells of others were readily susceptible to H.I.V. infection in the test tube. And initially, we thought that was a mistake in experimentation, but upon repeated testing, it gave us the consistent result—that their cells were resistant to the prevalent strains of H.I.V.-1.
NARRATOR: If Ho could figure out why Steve Crohn was immune to H.I.V., the potential was obvious: a way to protect millions of people against AIDS.
H.I.V. affects the immune system by binding to protein receptors on the surface of CD-4 helper cells. One type of receptor was identified, but it was not enough. Binding to this receptor alone would not allow H.I.V. to penetrate the cell. Perhaps a second receptor was needed. But it would take more than ten years for scientists to find it. When they finally did, in an explosion of discovery, five different labs, including David Ho’s group in New York, announced they had isolated the second receptor for H.I.V., called CCR-5.
DAVID HO, MD: For H.I.V. to penetrate into a cell it needs to have a dual docking mechanism at the surface of the cell. So, H.I.V. will use its own protein, the outer protein, to bind to two different cellular molecules, and H.I.V. will bind to CD-4 first; it then changes its structure, after binding to CD-4, and therefore the new structure would then bind to CCR-5, and that would cause the two membranes to fuse, and H.I.V. then enters the cell.
****** ****
Meanwhile, does coerced sex, forced penetration, etc., continue? Could sexual predation, while carrying HIV, be considered murder if a victim dies? Do you want to find out? ‘Wouldn’t you like to know’?’
page 100/#54. Wouldnt You Like To Know – February 22, 2011 posted:
50. audit – February 21, 2011:
‘Word around campus was that Burton said Bob Dylan was “crystallized in his magnetic center.”’
Robert Earl Burton is crystallized in penis envy. (Not in the sense of: 1) a female wishing to have one, or, 2) a male wishing to have a better one. But, in the sense of getting his hands and lips on as many as he possibly can.)
This is incorrect crystallisation. Much suffering and many lifetimes will be necessary to change that.
That which is retained in oneself should in course of time crystallise into a permanent vehicle of selfconsciousness, that is, into a soul.
The Theory of Celestial Influence
Rodney Collin
This general power of rendering living things harder, more crystalline, less sensitive and less conscious, we recognize as belonging to the process of degeneration or corruption.
The Theory of Celestial Influence
Rodney Collin
At the same time, men are right in their natural aversion from the pain and hardship which cause crystallisation, and in their efforts to avoid them. For who is yet ready to have all that he finds within him fixed? And even if he is, let him remember that fixing without understanding is like baking without yeast – something almost impossible of later correction.
The Theory of Celestial Influence
Rodney Collin
One of the first things about a ‘Hasnamuss’ is that he never hesitates to sacrifice people or to create an enormous amount of suffering, just for his own personal ambitions. How a ‘Hasnamuss’ is created is another question. It begins with formatory thinking, with being a tramp and a lunatic at the same time. Another definition of a ‘Hasnamuss’ is that he is crystallized in the wrong hydrogens. This category cannot interest you practically, because you have nothing to do with such people; but you meet with the results of their existence.
The Fourth Way
Peter D. Ouspensky
We must pray that crystallisation does not overtake us.
The Theory of Conscious Harmony
Rodney Collin
* * *
See PBS NOVA: Surviving AIDS:
Overview:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/programs/2603_aids.html
See PBS NOVA: Surviving AIDS:
Full Transcript:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2603aids.html
Yes, if Robert Burton is HIV positive or has full blown AIDS, the responsible thing for him to do would be to inform every man that he has has sex with. It would be a good idea, give his promiscuity, to also put notices of his illness on the Pathway to Presence website, the Fellowship of Friends Discussion Forum, and the Greater Fellowship website, along with a suggestion that all Students and all their sexual partners have an HIV test.
Yes, it is unlikely that Robert Burton’s psychopathic Narcissism would propel him towards giving disclosure or to even think about others much and the great personal health risk he has perpetuated by his unsafe sex with a multitude of male heterosexual sexual partners.
An explanation of the difference between HIV and AIDS:
“When a person becomes infected with HIV, that person becomes “HIV positive” and will always be HIV positive. Over time, HIV disease infects and kills white blood cells called CD4 lymphocytes (or “T cells”) and can leave the body unable to fight off certain kinds of infections and cancers.
AIDS stands for Acquired Immuno–Deficiency Syndrome. A healthy person usually has a CD4, (white blood cells) count of between 600 and 1,200. When the CD4 count drops below 200, a person’s immune system is severely weakened, and that person is then diagnosed with AIDS, even if he or she has not become sick from other infections.
Think of AIDS as advanced HIV disease.
A person with AIDS has an immune system so weakened by HIV that the person usually becomes sick from one of several opportunistic infections or cancers such as PCP (a type of pneumonia) or KS (Kaposi sarcoma), wasting syndrome (involuntary weight loss), memory impairment, or tuberculosis (TB). If someone with HIV is diagnosed with one of these opportunistic infections (even if the CD4 count is above 200), he or she is said to have AIDS. AIDS usually takes time to develop from the time a person acquires HIV – usually between 2 to 10–15 years.
Once a person has been diagnosed with AIDS, she or he is always considered to have AIDS, even if that person’s CD4 count goes up again and/or they recover from the disease that defined their AIDS diagnosis.
After the diagnosis of AIDS is made, the current average survival time with antiretroviral therapy is estimated to be now more than 5 years, but because new treatments continue to be developed and because HIV continues to evolve resistance to treatments, estimates of survival time are likely to continue to change. Antiretroviral medication can prolong the time between HIV infection and the onset of AIDS. Without antiretroviral therapy, death normally occurs within a year. Most patients die from opportunistic infections or malignancies associated with the progressive failure of the immune system.”
The above explanation was taken from this site:
http://aidssupport.aarogya.com/aids/what-is-aids/66-difference-between-hiv-a-aids.html
“A Peruvian student married to an American, P1lar, was at one time working with AIDS in Yuba County,..”
Wendy, that is not English. It’s cult speak. It’s FOF speak. People don’t “work with” AIDS. They struggle with it, suffer from it, and eventually they die from it. But no one “works with it.”
—–
“I, for one, do not believe that, say, FOF doctors and those in the know would hide this information at the cost of so many lives. That’s why I suspect this is only a rumor.
“But hey, I was a member of the FOF for years. I could be naive about that, as well as so many other things.”
Yes, you absolutely are naive, not “could be.” … just as most of us were.
When you find yourself thinking, “No, this can’t be true,” try to listen to that thought very carefully, and remember that it’s the same thought that prevented all of us from seeing the obvious truth about Burton. Again, the question is, why would it surprise you that he may have AIDS? People are indoctrinated in cults. They see what they want to see, and believe what they want to believe — doctors included. So many people — including me — have ignored the POTENTIAL physical and mental health consequences of a reckless guru having sex with so many of his followers. It would be no great leap to also ignore direct evidence.
—–
“Whenever the whiff of a rumor sets off a series of blog lectures, speculation, and sermonizing, it undermines the credibility of this venue.”
What undermines credibility is the inability to talk about this issue AT ALL.
Quick question: Let’s say Burton having AIDS actually is “just a rumor” and he actually does not have AIDS (and not even herpes, or chlamydia, or any other STD):
Would it make you feel any more comfortable?
Would all of us walk away from our computers right now, and have a big sigh of relief — “Whew, I’m glad Burton’s reckless behavior hasn’t yet led to an AIDS epidemic… Maybe he’s only caused Herpes, or maybe only one or two have died. That’s not so bad.”
Whether the time bomb has exploded already, or is ready to explode, or is just waiting for the right moment: Those are really the only pertinent questions.
But again, if you and other cult members and all of us could somehow direct the same skepticism you’re showing here with equal ferocity toward Burton and the FOF…
@115
You are working hard to misunderstand me, qwertyuiop, and you have succeeded.
P1lar did indeed “work with” AIDS. She is or was some sort of health and social services administrator.
I would not at all be surprised at Robert having AIDS, and I didn’t say I would be. The rumor is believable because we all anticipated this. But “believable” does not mean “true.”
Of course, I don’t know that the FOF doctors, nurses, medical staff could not be pressured into silence. But given the reaction to a recent STD outbreak, I would have expected better.
To accuse people of being complicit in the death, or the potential death, of others is a serious thing. It may be true, but it’s not a charge I would level without facts.
To do that with a reckless disregard for whether it is true or not is malicious.
Don’t let your hatred turn you into your enemy.
Sayonara.
115. qwertyuiop – June 16, 2011
“A Peruvian student married to an American, P1lar, was at one time working with AIDS in Yuba County,..”
Wendy, that is not English. It’s cult speak. It’s FOF speak. People don’t “work with” AIDS. They struggle with it, suffer from it, and eventually they die from it. But no one “works with it.”
—–
What was meant by that statement, qwertyuiop, is that that person mentioned worked in the health care field where they were privy to the general information about the unusually high incidence in the population (per capita) of sexually transmitted diseases (STD’s), and in particular HIV/AIDS, in the Oregon House/Dobbins region, where the Fellowship of Friends has its headquarters and where Robert Earl Burton resides. This is considered a vector (or source location), epidemiologically, or also, sometimes, called a ‘plume’ for disease propagation purposes.
And, yes, I am aware of the FoFspeak of ‘works with’ as a terminology where if someone has a particular burden (a Robert Burden) that they have to bear – it could be a disease for example – that it might be said: ‘So-and-so is ‘working with’ having terminal cancer,’ for an example.
—–
In the 1990’s, about the time of the Tr-y B-zzb– scandal (alleged REB sexual contact with a minor – settled out-of-court, for a possible $5 million), the HIV/AIDS issue was of significance and some medical professional(s) (doctor(s)), who would be ‘in the know’ and able to advise on safety precautions, were ignored and they, subsequently, departed their Fellowship of Friends membership.
I hope that clarifies.
AP:
I understood exactly what she meant in her post.
Wendy, I have never meet a health care practitioner (not in the cult) who says, “I’m working with cancer.” Have you?
But it’s odd (although not surprising) that you would focus on that one comment, and ignore the rest.
Wendy: “To accuse people of being complicit in the death, or the potential death, of others is a serious thing. It may be true, but it’s not a charge I would level without facts. To do that with a reckless disregard for whether it is true or not is malicious. Don’t let your hatred turn you into your enemy.”
Let’s say I’m a young man in the FOF and Robert Burton approaches me to have sex. I’m going over the Academy tomorrow night to have dinner with him and a small group of other guys. His intent is pretty clear.
One friend tells me to disregard the rumors that Robert has AIDS. “It’s just malicious and hateful gossip on the blog. We have to be careful because this is a serious accusation.” She’s obviously very loyal to Robert and values him as a teacher. She doesn’t believe he’s a sociopath. She probably means well, but is misguided and still mired in cult thinking.
Another friend walks up to me and says, “You know what, Robert very easily COULD have AIDS, and I happen to believe he does. I would not go anywhere near him.” This same friend tells another and another and another, until word spreads around the FOF that Robert Burton may have AIDS. One person even calmly suggests that she has heard from a good source that he does.
I decide not to go the Academy tomorrow night.
Judge for yourself which of these friends is truly there to help me. Malicious? Hateful? No, not at all. Very concerned for me, yes.
qwertyuiop, you know what… you are right!
“If only cult members would bring that same sort of questioning and skepticism to ALL things FOF…” “Picture for a moment how that would change things.”
And picture now doing it even outside of that, as a general rule, in everyday life…
ahhhhhhh!! … the possibilities….
“If Burton does have AIDS… honestly”, the last thing would be to be surprised! Besides, we cannot really talk of “unprotected sex” with ‘The Teacher’ here, because there are always angels in the room!
The bigger question is not “whether RB is a goddess in a man’s body”. It’s whether the so-called “goddess” is good looking.
Furthermore, the better or maybe the best question is not “whether angels do exist for real”. It’s whether the so-called “angels” are acting for our own good.
q: “I understood exactly what she meant in her post.”
Of course you did…
Speaking of which, how would you rate this level of denial?
Keep digging Q. you’ll eventually get out f the hole you put yourself in: it’s not you, it’s the universe that offered you the shovel.
Certain psychological dispositions might have left the cult, but it hasn’t left the cultee.
re. 121 J.D. Good observation! Psychological dispositions or predispositions are just longer words for habits. Those habits can be substituted for other preferred habits and this brings about a degree of change. It might even be said that the seeds or the roots of those habits still exist in the person who has changed from one to another or others. This is what we hear from AA`s. Objectively true or not does not really matter in the end and yes these also are all beliefs (habits of thought). Yes they are hard-wired by the time they become addictions and therefore hold a lot of power. Recidivism is a fact and there are good reasons for it to exist. We do see exers jumping wholeheartedly into yet another cult but we also see others who avoid them as though they realize they have been snake-bitten. Supposedly the blog exists to ensure that all have the opportunity to be made aware of the snakes, the good, medium and bad ones.
Society has tried to regulate who will be allowed to go where and when but this has always failed. I tend to think that this is good because it produces and ensures more and more possibilities. There are dangers on both sides and I doubt anyone or anything will ever be able to decide for others how to lead their lives. For example some people benefit greatly from a stint in the military and others become monsters who create havoc and crime using the tools they were introduced to while they were in. It all depends on the habits they had prior to their experiences, habits they may have been directed to in their very early childhoods, those that form their dispositions. Maturation or growing up varies depending on the degree of ability to steer a better course when things begin to have unwanted results, in other words when they make us unhappy or joyless.
That really is all that we can go by. Anything else sucks, as they say, but I will not go there at this time. It is bad enough that I re-entered this subject contrary to my previous intent and declaration but damn it I enjoyed going there. Maybe I ought to take a pill and go back to playing on jokerstars. Cheers!!
What was meant by that statement, qwertyuiop, is that that person mentioned worked in the health care field where they were privy to the general information about the unusually high incidence in the population (per capita) of sexually transmitted diseases (STD’s), and in particular HIV/AIDS, in the Oregon House/Dobbins region, where the Fellowship of Friends has its headquarters and where Robert Earl Burton resides. This is considered a vector (or source location), epidemiologically, or also, sometimes, called a ‘plume’ for disease propagation purposes.
I remember, more then 4 years ago there were 6 cases of HIV in OH. None towards Marysville/ Yuba city and not many in Marysville/ Yuba city. On the map it looked like a concentration of HIV in OH. Those people were diagnosed in OH and several of them were not living in OH anymore. For example: somebody lives in OH and gets medical, testing/ diagnosed in Los Angeles, he will be “counted for” in Los Angeles.
If Robert has HIV, which I doubt, he most likely has not been diagnosed in Yuba county. He goes to MD’s in Los Angeles as I remember…
Also if you know more about his sex life, he does weird things having people peeing and pooping on him and have somebody put his hand/arm up his GI tract….. To me sounds like an early unresolved trauma as a child in the “anal phase” which has crystallized his behavior Robet can not get out of this behavior. I call this sick/stuck and damaging to many young people, who in turn will hurt others, often the young women.
RUN.
It sounds a bit like a small group of debunkers, but I think it’s more that the topic has struck some sort of nerve. If it’s true that Burton has had HIV for years while continuing to have sex with his students, it’s probably not easy to stomach for a lot of people. That’s scary. We just don’t want to hear it. Shout it down. Photograph it. Make fun of it. Hammer the people who brings up the topic. If they don’t show you the medical records, or if you can’t talk directly to his doctor, then doubt them or even ignore them.
There was a time when any talk about Burton at all was considered a “rumor” and one should keep quiet and not talk about those things. It’s hateful, it’s malicious, it’s negative. It shows your lack of valuation. People who did must be talked down, and they were even chuckled at a bit for their obviously low level of being.
Keep quiet. Don’t express your opinion. Someone may not think well of you. You won’t be accepted by the group. And boy, heaven forbid that someone might make fun of you. Gotta make sure you don’t express what you actually think about this. It’ll look bad.
But wait, you’re not at Apollo d’Oro anymore. No center director looking over your shoulder. No worry about being ostracized for expressing your opinion. Not getting kicked out. Not losing your spot in the inner circle. Open discussion is welcome here
Robert Burton may have AIDS. And what’s more, if he does have AIDS, he will not let that stop him.
More of the same. It never ends?
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/french-village-seen-threat-apocalypse-sects-082758601.html
Is it not time the USA government set up its own watchdog?
125. Renald
J.Z. Knight/Ramtha….another major whack job with all the requisite symptoms of Guru Syndrome.
I heard from a reliable source that Robert is a conscious being.
That was then…
Medical records are private. Providing evidence here won’t happen. The topic is pertinent, however, and not off-limits. Whatever someones knows or does not know about REB having HIV/AIDS, there’s plenty of reason to avoid intimate contact with him or anyone who may have. A lot of people have left the group because of rumours. Thank the heavens for rumours. If there is a pocket of AIDS in Oregon House, a prime suspect would be REB. Common sense. Beware.
Were the circumstances surrounding the suicide of reb`s dentist ever made public or in any was disclosed?
Was there ever an inquest or inquiry made regarding the drowning of a student in Lake Nancy on fof property?
Exactly what was Brian Sisler`s request at the gatehouse prior to his hanging himself in a motel in Marysville/Yuba City? Surely he was not looking to be shat upon just once more. Surely he deserved some of the food he had made from eating reb`s shit, also called intentional suffering.
Just a few thoughts before breakfast.
Happy Father`s Day to whoever it applies.
130. Renald
The Pathway to Presence website is the perfect display of sugar-candy psychology covering over a vast array of everything ranging from inpropriety to pure evil, from REB at the top of the tree and down through the ranks. It is my guess that every attempt was made to, again, cover over these suicides and ‘everyone continue with doing the will of C-influence’ (i.e. being present to the suffering that the prize ass-hole, Burton, administers)…..
PEOPLE WILL WAKE UP (TO THE LIES, MAINLY) IF THEY WANT TO…..
You will get nowhere but fucked-up in the head and heart by staying in the FOF.
Nigel.
Nigel,
You are right. People will wake up to the lies if they want to.
For the sake of argument, let’s ask some questions of the run of the mill true believer, who was educated in Burton’s “school” and continues to believe the claptrap:
Where is the proof that self-remembering leads to permanent higher consciousness? How can any one of us be so foolish as to speak confidently about souls going to the moon, and the judgment after death? This is all fantasy. Even Gurdjieff would laugh at anyone who regurgitated such nonsense without having verified it — which, by the way, is impossible.
And where did this idea come from that each precious moment of self-remembering lives in eternity? It didn’t come from Gurdjieff or Ouspensky. It came from a far less reliable source even than them, Robert Burton. How can anyone say such a thing with a straight face? What do humans know about eternity?
How do you prove that awareness is “not the machine”? The human brain generates awareness. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It’s even visible in an MRI machine as the dreaded “brain activity.” To some extent, it can be influenced by our attention. It’s still “the machine.” You disagree? Tell me how you can tell the difference? Does it just “feel right”? Or is it just too horrifying to think otherwise?
I maintain that anyone who believes that self-remembering “is not the machine” is the one who is comforting himself with nonsense. Here is what we can know:
1. We live in a body that generates self-awareness.
2. When we choose to, we can alter that awareness by being aware of ouselves in our environment. We have no way of knowing If any lasting effects come of that.
3. The mind is an imperfect instrument. We see what we want to see. If we strongly believe something, no matter how ridiculous, the mind, in its pattern-seeking nature, will find confirmation of that belief everywhere.
Here is what we cannot know:
1. Anything about a theoretical soul.
2. Anything about an afterlife, and who or what might be there.
3. Whether or not self-remembering produces any results beyond the immediate change in awareness.
Based on observations of people who have spent decades pursuing self-remembering, we do have some inklings about what the effects of prolonged self-remembering and other so called “work” will produce, but it’s not flattering for the believers. The fact that exactly none of these proponents has achieved the goal of consciousness is a pretty poor track record. Worse still, the loudest proponents seem to be pretty poor specimens in general, with behavior that regularly sinks well below that of the average bear. I’m sure there is an aphorism to justify that. But when you can look at the situation with clarity, with the fog of belief wiped away, the results just don’t look that promising. In fact, they look nonexistent, or even counter-productive.
Repeating as fact things that you read in a book, written by people you’ve never met — what is that? It’s religion. Believe in your religion, but don’t try to speak about it as if it is verifiable fact. Perhaps a person who at least outwardly appeared to have attained something could pull it off — someone with a good guru act. But a person who is far more out of control than the average joe? Let’s just say it’s not very becoming.
130 Renald
He just wanted to talk to the one who had claimed to be his teacher.
133. X-ray
But had he made that month`s teaching payment?
Everybody knows that if you can`t make your teaching payments your soul is doomed to go to the moon. It just is bad business to be bothered by people like Brian. After all trips to Russsia to attend a ballet don`t grow on trees.
Cheers!
Correction, Surely, that should be “behavior that regularly stinks”.
89. Wendy – June 14, 2011
#85 silentpurr
Could you please give us any details you have, so we can determine whether this is just a rumor? Why is this source reliable? How many people know this already?
Any idea when he contracted it, so we can possibly determine who and how many people might have been exposed?
135 Agent 45
Duly noted.
Prakashanand Saraswati led one of the top Hindu temples in the United States until a jury convicted him of molesting children and he took off for Mexico.
“And yet there was Saraswati, ordered to trade in the saffron robes for an orange jumpsuit. The charges were serious—20 counts of indecency with a child—but “Swami Ji,” as Saraswati was known to his followers, seemed untroubled in the courtroom. Large and elderly, he parked himself in a recliner and kicked off his shoes, as though watching the afternoon soaps. (The judge had permitted him the chair due to his bad back.) Occasionally, he took a nap or picked his nose.”
“He didn’t really seem to be that concerned about the trial,” says Hays County prosecutor Cathy Compton. It may have been because Saraswati was not used to answering to a higher authority. At Barsana Dham, Saraswati was the highest authority, a “Divine personality” by his own description. “On your own, you are helpless,” Saraswati told his followers. “You need a Divine help, and only a Divine personality can give you a Divine help.”
“He grabbed me and he put his hands all over my breasts and he stuck his tongue in my mouth.” After Hendel says she pushed away, Saraswati told her it was a blessing to be so close with the guru.”
132. surelyujest
I hope some on-the-fence members read your post of common sense.
134 Renanld
That´s true. And as the gas prices goes up, there will be more donation demand.
139 Bruce
Those divine fuckers needs to be castrated, period.
RE: 107 Reposting Repost
Just to clear Richard Focazio’s name, to the best of my knowledge he got it the old fashioned way – prostituting in S.F. in the very early 1980’s. He was quite gay and therefore unfit for the “Boy Cottage” shenanigans. On occassion, he was a very good hairdresser too. (R.I.P.)
This comment will be confusing to those not following a certain arcane argument, but here it is anyway.
I make a passing reference to Gurdfieff, and it’s the “fallacy of authority” — which is then followed by a page and a half of quotes from 4th way “authorities”! I call bullshit. Huge quantities. Reams of quotations from these books of esoteric fairy tales do not sway me. I know all the quotes. They are slim proof. Let me map this out:
1. I have a set of beliefs.
2. I got them out of books.
3. You don’t believe me? Let me quote these books. Now you get it, right?
4. By the way, people have believed this stuff for years. It must be true. Except almost nobody does believe it. Because most people are idiots. (See, they’re philosophical geniuses if they agree with me, but idiots if they don’t.)
5. And if you don’t understand these ideas, it’s because you are deficient (asleep, mechanical, doomed to the moon.)
6. Did I mention these ideas are old? (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html)
7. The truth of my beliefs is obvious to me, and therefore, should be to anyone with any real potential for developing a soul. I see confirmation of my beliefs everywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
All true believers are convinced that their beliefs are correct, and that anyone who doesn’t share those beliefs are deluded, or damned. This is not unique. It’s a sign of being highly subjective.
Two thousand years ago, people believed that owning slaves was correct. They also practiced animal sacrifice, and sometimes human sacrifice. See above, the fallacy of age.
Whatever terms we use to label our varying states of consciousness, I have seen how great the temptation is to force my beliefs onto the experience. In fact, these experiences exist completely apart from dogma and ideology. Eagerly seeing justifications of one’s beliefs is the worst kind of confirmation bias.
Memories of past lives? Bullshit squared. Who’s out there, Shirley Maclaine?
107 – PMcG is still ok.
re 143. Shirley – Great to get some good news on here sometimes. Cheers!!
136 & 144 are new
143. Agent 45
Richard and his boyfriend (also a member) lived in my SF flat at the time he joined (before moving to the Ranch). To my knowledge he didn’t “prostitute” himself. He and Paul were very active in the gay/ bath house scene right at the start of the AIDS epidemic. And I think he “connected” with RB a couple times, although RB pretty much stayed away from gay members. I remember seeing RF leaving RB’s bedroom early one or two mornings at the Boy Cottage.
Brother Bruce –
I shouldn’t have said that about Richard as I have no direct knowledge about his extracurricular activities. That assessment of the source of his infection was told to me by his ex-wife, who of course is a biased source. (She tested negative, so apparently he wasn’t infected when they had marital relations). I should have said he was a fine hair-stylist also. The point was that Bob wasn’t always as diseased as he is now. Caveat Emptor.
Friends, I wish I could be more helpful regarding the details of my message. I only know that it came from a trusted friend who learned the news from someone deep and long within the Fellowship. That is all I can say presently.
#150. Thank you, silent, for the clarification.
What a fucked up place this fellowship of shit.
A patient with “full blown AIDS” would probably be taking many, many pills every day and may have (although it is less common these days with the numerous AIDS medications available) visible signs of infection like the disfiguring lesions on the surface of the skin caused by Kaposi’s Sarcoma. Probably, though, all trash is burned at the Galleria, so there wouldn’t be much medical trash, or empty pill bottles left floating around…
Still, if Robert Burton has AIDS I cannot imagine that it would remain a secret for long…
Of course, this is still the case of an anonymous person (silentpurr) reporting on something said by an unnamed source. (No offense, silentpurr, almost all of us are anonymous here.)
If it is not true, it is a serious enough charge, affecting such a huge number of people, that the FOF leadership should repudiate it publicly – especially since it appears to be a rumor within the FOF. Given Robert’s behavior and current ill health, it is certainly a credible charge.
If, however, it is true, then doesn’t some government agency kick in to inform all people who have had sexual contact with Robert? And don’t all those people have to be tested? And then don’t they have to inform all the people they have had contact with? This widening circle of notification would include not only current members but a large number of former members, especially since the disease would appear to be longstanding, going back years, given that he is obviously ill now.
If that is the case, why did I never get a letter?
My ex is still an FOF member. He said he never had contact with Robert, and certainly he’s not Robert’s “type.” But if Robert’s “parties” are as claimed – and I have heard this from enough different sources to believe it – Robert hardly confined himself to his “type.” The sheer numbers on his birthdays and VD day make it plain he had to bring in supernumeraries, like an MGM film. My ex could easily have lied to me.
In fact, I know that Robert did in fact tell the men around him to lie to their wives and lovers. And this encouraged them to lie more generally.
I certainly have good reason to believe one of the women my ex lied about had been in contact with Robert’s young men.
The fact that I didn’t get a letter – and no one I know got such a letter (and I know people who are far more likely candidates than I am) – suggests that this either not true or not being reported to the authorities.
I had friends among the FOF doctors. If this is true, surely they must know. If they are not telling the authorities and the FOFers – does that make them criminally negligent?
Again, that’s one reason I have trouble believing these rumors. Of the doctors I knew, I cannot easily believe that one, in particular, would sink to this.
But we are talking about the FOF. Everyone is sinking. Everyone learns to justify more and more. Though I am loathe to believe it, I cannot say such criminal negligence is impossible.
I heard that Robert used to joke to insiders that, in the end, everyone will have had sex with everyone else in the FOF. Alas, in the pestilential sense, it’s all too true. Perhaps it’s his only prediction that may come true.
Legal Aspects of HIV/AIDS
A Guide for Policy and Law Reform
Global HIV/AIDS Program
and Legal Vice Presidency
The World Bank
See pages 81 – 86
Although it would be the considerate and ethical thing to do, it appears that there are currently no laws pertaining to it being mandatory to report HIV positive status to sexual contacts. I think that I have heard, though, of some people being prosecuted for knowingly transmitting the AIDs virus.
Click to access LegalAspectsOfHIVAIDS.pdf
Some people are beyond answering to anyone, not to the law, not even to the lesser gods. It seems he must be right about that, at least when it comes to the law, and that was not just about building permits.
On another subject, re. the burning of medication containers. Well things sure must have changed and I will believe it when I see it, but I clearly remember the incredible amounts of empty viagra boxes littering the back of the Academy. It was my job to pick up the trash.
Cheers!
PS. I guess it couldn`t really be called the back of the Academy, more like the side.
Cheers!
154 Wendy
I hate to tell you this, but there is no such a thing as ´´no Robert´s type´´.
Tell that to the center directors who were doing the screening.
Silentpurr:150
Yeah… thanks for nothing!
“I wish I could be more helpful regarding the details of my message….”
WTF! (what the fuck!)
“That is all I can say presently.”
Maybe, and I say ‘maybe’, if you cannot back it up maybe it’s better not saying anything at all.
Although, as they say and as we can see here, they run trains with bullshit.
Wendy:154
As x-ray pointed out, almost (and I squeeze in ‘almost’) every man who joined the Zoo-FoF had contact with the Tamer-in-chief. I would be very suspicious of somebody who claims otherwise. Such individuals feel shame and lie about it. (rightfully so?)
Personally, although he only performed fellatio on me, back then I got tested anyway.
Trust in your teacher, but tie your pants.
Ok, everyone. Please strike from the record that Robert Burton has AIDS. Let’s forget this. You have shown no proof — no medical records published online, no testimony from his doctors, no confirmation from his closet confidants, and he hasn’t stepped forward in the interest of public safety to say he has AIDS. So, please, even if you hear from someone that he has AIDS, or even if you’re concerned that he MAY have AIDS, whatever you do, don’t announce it here. It’s best to keep quiet about it.
And besides you’re forcing a lot of us to think twice about having sex with anyone in the FOF, which is a real downer, and you’re making us wonder if we’ve been really naive about this. And what’s worse, you’re questioning Burton’s integrity by suggesting he has AIDS and is continuing to have sexual contact with his followers. So just stop, please, and let people go back to sleep.
160 J D
´Trust your teacher but tie your pants´ – Fufy wisdom.. I like that!
Now, Wendy, if you dont believe me, thats fine, I dont want you to believe me, I would rather see you verivying it yourself..here is what I suggest to you and to everybody else who has some doubts..
Next Valentine day, please wake up early and be at the Academy fron door ( watch the kitchen too )from 7 am. Take a notebook with you, you will need to marke everyone who comes for blowjob, and then you will see that between around 70 people who are serving the devine qween who got unfortunatly traped in the man´s body, there many people of a different type, look and age..
and one more thing Wendy..
I really want to be wrong on that but I am afraid that you may will have a rough awakining one day, learning more about what your hasband did in the Academy..
I knew a number of couple who´s wifes were confident that their husbands are only doing a massage or providing a night security for the teacher.. but when the lead got blown off, they were quite surprised to say the least..
all that is to say, be carefull with thoughts like ´´his not his type´´, ´´he is too old´´, ´´he is not roberts´alchemy´´…
Come on folks, substantiated rumors are no fun, besides, technically they are not even rumors. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
You are right X-ray, almost everyone gets fucked in some way, shape or form by Bobby Burton. He wouldn’t have it any other way. Think of it as a high-alchemy reaming that’s good for your evolution.
Oh please. This is all part of a creepy and increasingly distant past. I really don’t care what my ex did, and with whom or how many, except insofar as the cooties I may have been exposed to. You can’t scare me with stuff.
As well as sharing the ‘most-of-humanity’ feature of vanity, I was ‘loaded’ with fear and naivete, which was definitely made of use of by people in the FOF, both in the London Center and when I moved to California. Both M–k L—-in and P—–k M—-y told me that Burton was a ‘gay gentleman’ and had single relationships with men in the FOF to work on separating from his emotional center when the love affair ended. Then the blog disclosed Burton’s rampant and increasing-in-demand orgiastic and extreme-sex tendencies.
Look, you guys – if you want to know for a fact (myself having had terms in hospital with them) that Burton is a psychopath, ask a person with psychotic tendencies (finally and beautifully-practically brought under control with a good regime of medication and the local Mental Health Team – a psychiatrist would not help Burton; there are enough of them in the FOF cow-towing to him anyway, not advising him on his oh!-so-wayward behaviour). The truth is that Burton takes ‘uppers’ (anti-depressants) and I take ‘downers’ (anti-psychotics) – so who has to deal with higher states and who has a disgusting behavioural disorder?
And, since this AIDS thing became aired on the blog, how many would not be surprised, given Burton’s revealed-at-last track record that a high percentge of the FOF have an STD…..Nigel.
Right up until and beyond my leaving date, Xmas Day 2002, I and my center director wife believed that reb was gay and had sex with various gay male students. As a matter of fact we encouraged the gay male students in our center to go to Apollo because of this belief which they did. We never received any negative feedback from them because we left before they came back.
Please consider this my formal apology for encouraging anyone to visit reb. I am truly sorry.
Cheers!
Someone – I do not recall who – said it is better to know than not to know. I suggest people surf through ‘Google – aids statistics’…..Nigel.
Wendy:165
“You can’t scare me with stuff.” You are one tough girl! Although in the “increasingly distant past” of just ten days ago you seemed pretty rattled. Some guidelines: if your ex “traveled” or was at some point a “secretary” or dwelled in the same compound: les jeux sont faits!
Nigel:168
For what it’s worth, shouldn’t you suggest first to check if it’s true or not instead?
It’s all fun and games until someone loses his life.
Cut the hazing, J.D. I’m not trying to join any fraternity.
Let me clarify: I am not at all rattled about what my Bubba may or may not have done with his little binky years ago. He’s on the dark side now – the incredible shrinking man.
I am, however, deeply rattled by the idea of an AIDS pandemic within a community where many don’t have health insurance or anyone to take care of them, other than the care offered by volunteers, many of whom don’t have the qualifications for any other gainful employment, and are sometimes themselves marginal members of the community.
Given that the FOF has great pretensions to being a “church,” I think they will find that government isn’t very sympathetic to a “church” that throws its members into harm’s way, and then averts its gaze when they need to have medical care that will save their lives and prevent a pandemic.
I know of a number of people, in and out, whose lives would be directly at risk. Some of them were not willing partners in any possible sense, but spouses who were lied to and who are still in the dark.
Since the FOF claims to be a church, with special IRS standing, they should be concerned about the well-being of the FOF members, if not former members. Given Robert’s known proclivities, the questions are credible ones, and we shouldn’t be left to guess.
This rumor, if silentpurr is telling the truth, exists within the FOF community, and they certainly owe it to their members especially. But the FOF leadership should be concerned about all of us.
If it is a “church,” of course.
For years, FOF representatives have told the press and the world that Robert has only consensual sex, and that many straight men apparently find him attractive, hence, the promiscuity. They have said that they find nothing wrong or immoral about his behavior.
If that is the case, I call on Abraham Goldman and the FOF doctors to come forth and make a clear statement on this matter, which affects so many. I ask them to put their professional standing behind their confirmation or repudiation. Our concerns are well-grounded given Robert’s mysterious ill health, and not idle or merely provocative.
They can’t have it both ways. If it’s not shameful or immoral, then be transparent.
Adios.
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