Fellowship Of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion – Part 89 January 18, 2010
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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion.
For recent pages from the blog go here
For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussionblog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.
The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.
To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org
For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.
To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html
For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.
This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.
If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.
And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.
At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.
Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).
To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/
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Fellowship of Friends - Living Presence Discussion 
• It’s a doomsday cult.
• The predicted doomsday never came.
• Burton predicted major catastrophes for 1984 and 1998, and then nuclear war for 2006. For decades, he predicted the Fellowship of Friends would become the beginning of a new civilization in 2006. Burton said, “Our task is to establish a new civilization.”
• Through cognitive dissonance, followers try to forget the above predictions, or downplay them.
• Like other cults, followers object to the word “cult.” But there’s no better one-word description for this organization in the English language.
• Burton has coerced and seduced several hundred young followers — and perhaps thousands — into having sex with him, using promises of spiritual salvation, expensive gifts, vacations abroad, as well as playing on their fears of being outcast from their circle of friends. As a result, many former and current followers have suffered lasting psychological scars and emotional trauma, and a few have committed suicide. (Read the numerous personal accounts within this blog.)
• In doing the above, Burton has violated the trust of thousands of his followers who were unaware of the extent of his sexual activities within the cult, and unaware of the extent of his deception.
• Burton is a sociopath and malignant narcissist who shows no concern for the welfare of his followers unless they are useful to him in some way. When they cease to be useful to him, he discards them.
• Burton’s “public” persona is one of a gentle guru who speaks with a soft voice. This personality helps him deceive his followers into believing they have found the one truth path to enlightenment, salvation, and heaven.
• Burton tells his followers that 44 angels, or gods, guide the Fellowship of Friends — and that they guide only the Fellowship of Friends. Angels, he says, do not guide anyone else on earth.
• Burton advances a world view that Hell exists, and that there’s only one way to avoid going to Hell when one dies: Join the Fellowship of Friends, and stay in the Fellowship of Friends until your death. All people on earth who do not join the Fellowship of Friends will go to Hell when they die. Likewise, followers are warned that they will go to Hell if they leave the cult.
• Followers are discouraged or forbidden from communicating with former members. Those who leave the cult will lose contact with their closest friends within the cult.
• Followers are forbidden to discuss any of the above. If they do discuss these facts with their friends, or question anyone about these facts, they will be expelled. This in turn fosters secrecy and lack of transparency within the cult.
• People outside the cult who try to provide the above information to followers within it are intimidated or threatened with legal retaliation, much like the Scientology cult.
• Burton charges exorbitant membership fees – anywhere from 20% to 40% of income, depending on a person’s salary. The full amount of these fees is never discussed when representatives try to sell people on joining the cult.
• The fees have helped pay for Burton’s extravagant lifestyle, which includes expensive clothing, frequent expensive vacations, and a lavish home at the cult’s compound in Oregon House, California (between Grass Valley and Yuba City).
• Burton and the Fellowship of Friends have been sued by former members on multiple occasions. Most of these suits have been settled out of court, with insurance companies paying the settlement on behalf of the Fellowship of Friends.
• Burton founded the cult in 1970. For more than three decades, he characterized the cult as a so-called “Fourth Way school.” In recent years, the cult has virtually abandoned any discussions about the Fourth Way.
• Because the Fellowship of Friends (also referred to as Pathway to Presence) has been granted religious status, American taxpayers help pay for this cult.
• In the last four years, several hundred followers have left the Fellowship of Friends, and many followers continue to leave. It’s believed that slightly over 1,000 members remain worldwide, but reliable statistics are not publicly available.
Got Enlightenment?
The Fellowship of Friends Inc., a pseudo-religious corporation headquartered in Northern California and also known as Pathway to Presence is currently accepting new members who are in search of insurmountable obstacles on their path to enlightenment and need support for their underlying masochism in a friendly cult-like atmosphere.
Obstacles to enlightenment include, but not limited to:
1) sequential cessation of all critical thought
2) disabled conscience
3) absurd superstitious belief system
4) ever changing definition of spiritual terms
5) internalized schism of self-concept
6) obsessive self-flagellation
7) increasing personal credit card debt
8) abusive and narcissistic role model
9) prohibition of humor
10) blunting of negative feelings
11) alcoholism and drug use
12) shallow relationships
13) impersonal sex
14) fear and isolation
15) prohibition of meditation
16) misogyny
17) prohibition from procreating
18) co-dependence
19) confabulation
20) male sexual submission to leader
Candidates must be willing to sacrifice all and everything based upon the premise that the cult leader might be right. Homosexual men need not apply.
Recently saw the 2008 film by Bill Maher — Religulous.
A few excerpts:
“Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It’s nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are our intellectually slave holders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction.”
“Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings, who don’t have all of the answers, to think that they do.”
“The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that’s what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting shit dead wrong.”
“If the world does come to an end, here or wherever, or if it limps into the future decimated by the effects of a religion inspired nuclear terrorism, let’s remember what the real problem was — that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it.”
100,000 ANGELS
BLISS:
#300, Xray
Sorry, no need to quibble. I was not pointing to your words but to DC’s. It should have read: “the simple (and relatively unimportant) apparent contradictions”.
x-ray:
If you want to see Burton in jail, find a whistleblower with the inside information necessary to indict him (and his cronies) for tax fraud.
Here’s a link to some information:
http://www.tax-whistleblower.com/?gclid=CPCE8viVr58CFQcQagodqF3y0w
Here’s a toll free number for a confidential consultation:
1-800-275-3332
The IRS must give you up to 30% of any money they collect based upon your information
6. WhaleRider – January 19, 2010
Ellen,
I just clarified my point, which seems not been understood.
Whalerider,
I did all I could already in this regard.
What now left is only a desire to see this criminal in jail.
Help!! I am reading this site because someone I care for is in FoF and it is … well, driving us apart. He is going on the FoF exodus to Egypt with RB. Can anyone explain a bit of what this trip is about and what exactly they are doing?
X-Ray
There seems to be nothing we can do from the outside. But the present members are demonstrating their friendship ties with former members by active association, disregarding an important FOF brainwashing tool.
Robert doesn’t have the WILL capital to rebuke those infractions any longer.
Thankyou – yes agreed about the active association…. to me that is one of the strongest examples of cult behavior… to isolate people within and punish and exclude those who leave has no place in any sort of healthy, progressive or compassionate movement…. to my mind it cannot be justified. Fascistic! Consciousness without conscience – how can that be a state of being the so-called ‘awake’?
I’m glad to speak about this because it has been a weight for a long time. I feel guilty writing on here and even a bit fearful but…. perhaps that’s a good reason to write.
I find myself stuck in an eternal circle: fundamentally, if a person says that no system, i.e: school, is perfect but they are gaining something from it, the good outweighs the bad, don’t take it all so seriously – look deeper, it is very hard to know what to say next without sounding judgmental and extreme etc. Far be it from me to be in a position to judge whether it’s best for that person to leave…. but the discomfort of observing what the group is about, its history and what he, even if only by default, is supporting won’t go away either. Again, complicity without consensus – so why plough your life, money, faith, identity into elevating such unreconstructed submissive nonsense?
Zzzz. Sorry just needed to get that off my chest. Probably not very constructive.
RB is busy collecting doors. There are currently five or seven (don’t remember the exact number) being restored in one of the sheds on the FoF property. When I was still in (around 2007), there was a door hanging behind him and the speakers (or should I say the reciters) at the back of the tent (in the summer, meetings are held under a very lavish blue oriental tent). THE door was “full of esoteric symbols”, mostly justifying the new teaching of the sequence and the four wordless breaths. On that particular door, near the top was a repetitive motive which ended with a half motive. RB’s interpretation? The four wordless breaths have weakened and it’s time to star a new sequence.
DC, my memory of these events is a little blurred. Feel free to fill in with more exact information.
8 & 10 are new
8. EmmaGoldman – January 19, 2010
Are you sure you want to know what he is going to do with Burton in Egypt?
I can tell you all in details, but you may get a heart attack. And I am serious.
Emma, I’m a bit confused… In one post you sound like you’re NOT an fof follower, but that you’re dating someone who is an FOF follower, and that his involvement is driving you apart. Makes sense to me.
But your subsequent comments, to be very frank, sound like someone who’s indoctrinated in cult thinking — “… it is very hard to know what to say next without sounding judgmental and extreme etc.”
“Judgments” are good, not in the biblical sense of condemning someone, or treating them with chronic disrespect, or abusing them. But it’s a healthy outgrowth of critical thinking to make judgments about the world — including judgment about whether your boyfriend is or is not involved in something that’s destructive and detrimental not only to your relationship with him, but his — and your — personal growth.
Drawing conclusions that there’s something seriously wrong with the Fellowship of Friends is not an “extreme” or “judgmental” view. To followers within this cult, yes it may seem judgmental or extreme because that view calls into question their own judgment.
We’re ALL judgmental — the question is, are we intelligent and wise in our judgments? Or do we follow the group think like lemmings, or like sheep over the cliff?
So, about your boyfriend… Does it really MATTER what he’s doing in Egypt? The fact that your gut feelings are telling you something is seriously wrong with this picture is enough reason to run. The Fellowship of Friends is a factory for turning OFF those gut feelings. The key is to switch them back on.
I’m genuinely curious to understand the purpose of this visit – yes… but not here to speculate on anything sexual as that would be pure speculation. Not sure what you meant. Don’t worry not likely to have a heart attack!
Spock – thank you for your reply – that is actually really helpful to hear and I’m digesting it. I’m not sure about your leap to say I sound like I’m indoctrinated in cult thinking – but I’ll think it over! – hey, the generic desire not to be judgmental is not an exclusive trait – hmmm dithering, pondering, getting influenced by the heart, fearing being wrong, hating the feeling of mounting anger inside towards something I have never been part of and frankly can’t be bothered to wade through a bunch of turgid books to fully understand – well if I sound confused that is why!!!
Josiane: “DC, my memory of these events is a little blurred. Feel free to fill in with more exact information.”
No DC, please don’t. lol.
—
I personally find it humorous that “Someone” (an occasional poster here) is fond of asking people to LET IT GO and stop posting to the blog. (He likes to use all capital letters.)
People can definitely overdo things, but I’ll tell you what… I can’t think of anything healthier and more life giving than writing here — including all of the anger, and sarcasm, and the unleashing of criticism. It’s therapy unlike anything we can find anywhere else. And it’s a living journal and document — for all to see — that describes in detail the collective illness of the Fellowship of Friends. God willing, someone is listening.
No, the obsession that I’m MUCH more concerned about is the almost habitual interest in Robert Burton’s inane, bizarre ideas, and without questioning them. That’s where the idea of “letting it go” truly has value.
Emma, ok, I’ll share a story with you. I too had a girlfriend many years ago (long before this blog) who was not in the fof. I told her some things about it, but not all. She did some web searches, and the immediate reaction was “What the…!”
Our connection was strong enough to make it through the initial rough times, but the result was that she forevermore had doubts about my personal judgment. The fact that I could call myself a member of such an organization made her think twice about me. I don’t blame her at all. She confronted me about the cult, and to this day I appreciate her candor.
Wisdom is not always gentle, and does not always speak in a soft voice. If you love this guy, let him have it. And let things fall where they may. If he has any of “himself” remaining, he will listen.
Don’t question your own questioning — that’s what people are taught to do in cults.
Thanks for posting. My sincerest best wishes….
“… not here to speculate on anything sexual as that would be pure speculation.”
Just noticed this comment. The only speculation is whether or not someone will get a sexually transmitted disease from the interaction.
The denial in the above comment is just one example of what I mean by group think, or cult think. Denial is one of the most obvious traits. Not sure if you are or aren’t an fof followers, or if you’re just in close proximity, but the symptoms are fairly clear.
Wandering back in here after a long time… Feel moved to respond to Emma.
Hi Emma. Just want to tell you how balanced and refreshing you sound to me. Having a gut feeling or a knot in the stomach about being associated with a particular organization is good and healthy. In the FOF, people are trained to rationalize and neglect their common sense, and I’m sure any member you talk to will give you a perfect list of logical reasons how the good outweighs the bad. They know all the good rational reasons, and repeating them is how they try to keep themselves inside when their instincts advise them otherwise. On hearing those reasons, you may end up feeling unjustified and irrational, and believing yourself to be too judgmental. And I say, give yourself the freedom to be irrational and intuitive. Stick with what you know to be true for you – the discomfort about what the FOF has stood for, and the compass of knowing from your own self what conscience and compassion and consciousness actually FEEL like. I’m glad you came here and got that off your chest. Contrary to a common FOF belief, reflecting on one’s own internal experience, and speaking about one’s doubts and negative perceptions and desires, is actually good and useful, it is a step towards facing what’s true. Good luck.
15. EmmaGoldman – January 20, 2010
Speculation?
And how about some brutal facts?
Doesn’t sound like you really interested to know, do you?
By the way, there is a Petition to investigate the FOF, and it has a good description of Burton’s ‘practice’ and his cult. This Petition has been putted together by many people, with supported first hand stories. It was run by a well known attorney before released.
Looking forward to see your name in there.. even thouth something is telling me that I won’t.
http://www.petitiononline.com/djindjin/petition.html
Oh, and one other thing:
People who spent some time in the FOF, spent almost that same amount of time in denial of unpleasant realities. After we get out, we tend to feel kind of stupid and mad at ourselves for being in denial for so long.
So some former members may get a bit antsy and allergic when they hear you talking about the FOF in terms that are cautious or anything less than plainly condemnatory. That kind of attitude unpleasantly reminds them of the brainwashed state they used to be in.
Hope any such reactions don’t put you off from investigating truth on your own terms.
Best wishes.
The above is addressed to Emma.
The very first post on this page is a 100% trutfull and accurate discription of the cult.
So if you wish to know the truth, it’s all there, the question only if that is what you realy want.
1. What You Should Know About Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends – January 18, 2010
*
No. 8 EmmaGoldman
“Can anyone explain a bit of what this trip is about and what exactly they are doing?”
Emma ~
Does your male friend have a handsome face? Is he under 35 yrs.?
Is he being treated to the Egypt trip (paid for) by Robert Burton?
If your answers are ‘Yes’ to at least 2 of these 3 questions, read the
the 6th part (from the top) of Post No. 1 above, January 18, 2010,
“• Burton has coerced and seduced several hundred young
followers — …” I am sorry to say this, Emma, but it is my surmise
that therein lies one possible answer to your above stated question.
*
89/8. EmmaGoldman:
‘Help!! I am reading this site because someone I care for is in FoF and it is … well, driving us apart. He is going on the FoF exodus to Egypt with RB. Can anyone explain a bit of what this trip is about and what exactly they are doing?’
Besides the surface appearances of what is going on with these ‘Journey Forth By Day’ tours to Egypt, those of cultural, historical, spiritual, etc. – fulfilling Fellowship of Friends, Inc., supposed ‘religious activity,’ there are the more hidden reasons. One such hidden reason is that these Apollo University sponsored junkets are significant profit makers at a time when other Fellowship of Friends avenues to cash flow are severely constrained. Robert Earl Burton must have his money, one way or another. Another is that the FoF four ring circus show must go on. Another is that there may be a villa (safe haven for Burton to escape to) over there – possibly under construction/renovation. Another is the entourage/harem must be stroked and groomed. This is the way Robert Earl Burton does it; potential sexual partners are being courted.
Consider these prior posts:
’87/203. Associated Press – December 28, 2009
Top reasons Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan rather than Egypt or Mexico.
With all due respect to this post:
75/40. WhaleRider – June 30, 2009:
‘Re: Burton’s villa under construction In Luxor, Egypt.
Why Luxor?
Hmmm…
The “Luxor Temple”…is known in the Egyptian language as ipet resyt, or “the southern harem”.
When I visited the Luxor Temple a couple of years ago, I noted in a section of the temple called the “holiest of the holy”, there is a wall engraving of priests milking semen from a man’s erect penis in some kind of temple ritual. (Unfortunately, it was too dark for photos and a flash would have washed out the image or I would post it.)
[Here it is:
– Picture of the god Amun (aka: Amun-Re or Min) during the fertility festival or Opet Festival (‘Opet’ meaning ‘Secret Chamber’ so it is: “The Festival of the Secret Chamber” – private sanctuary, the holy of holies.) The god is making a donation while priest makes collection.]
As my guide, Mohammed, pointed out, you can see the wall is stained from years of women touching the penis as a fertility charm apparently in order to get pregnant.
There was no literal indication in the engraving of whether the semen was used in the ritual or simply discarded, symbolic of some greater truth, or if it was consumed as a condiment in a temple dinner or sipped as an after-dinner aperitif, or maybe even just used as a hair gel, and I neglected to ask my guide. We were left to our imagination.
Burton is a man of some means who will go to great lengths to justify his mania. You can see from his choice of trees both on and surrounding the property. . .’
Reason 1.: Egypt and Mexico have extradition treaties with United States.
Reason 2.: Afghanistan does not have extradition treaty with United States.
Reason 3.: But more importantly, see next post.
So, you see, there is this phallicy about Egypt or Mexico. Just two choices; that would be formatory.
Sorry about the length and the several posts here.’
’87/204. Associated Press – December 28, 2009
Top reasons Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan rather than Egypt or Mexico. Continued:
Reason 3 Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan:
The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
(#2807) PBS/Frontline
Original Air Date: 19 January 2010
(Season 28, Episode 1)
Be sure to watch it.
[This episode of Frontline did not air in my location and was preempted by a repeat play on Iran. maybe it will show next week or in future.]
An Afghan journalist investigates a sexual exploitation ring that trades young boys for sex.
In Afghanistan today, in the midst of war and endemic poverty, an ancient tradition – banned when the Taliban were in power – has re-emerged across the country: Many hundreds of boys, often as young as ten, are being lured off the streets on the promise of a new life, many unaware that their real fate is to be used for entertainment and sex. They’re the “Bacha Bereesh,”* literally “beardless boys,” chosen for their height, size and beauty, trained to sing and dance for male audiences, and then traded for sexual favors among former warlords and powerful businessmen. With remarkable access inside a sexual exploitation ring operating in Northern Afghanistan, Najibullah Quraishi, an Afghan journalist, investigates this illegal practice, talking with the boys and their masters and documenting how the Afghan authorities responsible for stopping these crimes are sometimes themselves complicit in the practice.
* Bacchá:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacch%C3%A1
More in next post.’
TOP TEN REASONS FOR THE TRIP TO EGYPT
10) To spend money retards give to buy pretty things so the retards will keep giving money.
9) To deep throat cock til Horace.
8) To probe the mysteries of the Stinx on the Geeza.
7) Another trip down de Nile.
6) To find 6 more poops.
5) Visit TutKYman
4) Next stop on scavenger hunt
3) Egypt is real esoteric
2) Trying to find exotic animals to bring to Oregon House Ca.
and the #1 reason for the trip to Egypt
1) Sun, fun, sand and cock
’87/205. Associated Press – December 28, 2009
Reason 3 (continued): Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan rather than Egypt or Mexico:
The dancing boys of Afghanistan
By Ghaith Abdul-Ahad
The Guardian, Saturday 12 September 2009:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/12/dancing-boys-afghanistan
More in next post.’
’87/206. Associated Press – December 28, 2009
Reason 3 (continued): Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan rather than Egypt or Mexico:
Ignored by society, Afghan dancing boys suffer centuries-old tradition
By Atia Abawi
CNN, October 27, 2009
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/10/26/ctw.afghanistan.sex.trade/index.html
More in next post.’
’87/207. Associated Press – December 28, 2009
Top reasons Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan rather than Egypt or Mexico. Continued:
Reason 4.:
If you’re looking for a place in need of a new civilization, Afghanistan, is made to order. Time for regime change? But, be careful, war is a pretext for all sorts of criminal activity; like: drug trafficking, human [sex] slave trading, weapons smuggling, money laundering, corruption, human rights abuse, false imprisonment, election fraud, genocide, molestation, murder and mayhem. But, then, some of these things the Phalluship of Phiends (Pathway to Penis) is already very familiar with and IT will feel right at home. The access to sexual exploitation of young boys should out weigh all other considerations. What a way to go, Robert! A pasha’s palace for promoting and prolonging presence (as well as plenty of penis) is the next page in your paltry play!
Anybody have some other reasons that Afghanistan, or somewhere else, is a good destination? Please post your ideas here.’
32#
how about DUBAI?
Thanks to posters Traveler, Spock and X-ray and others!
I did not want to get anyone’s back up by saying ‘pure speculation’ – in retrospect this was a v. poor choice of words as it might seem to undermine people not only who have been abused but then faced doubt when taking the courage to speak out. Ugghh. Not intended! I have never written on one of these forums before and I was just trying to assert something important – I don’t want to spend time here second guessing whether my bfriend might be one of the people RB f*cks in egypt – my feeling is he is not in that circle – and from what I’ve read not everyone ends up there. My eyes are open to the possibility that there may be something I don’t know but … really I don’t know, so that’s not a good start point right now.
I have read some testimonials and yes they are very disturbing. Ultimately what is needed is a successful lawsuit – not an out of court settlement- to really nail the guy, but that asks alot from the victim and the burden of proof is always hard….
But then I have also read attacks on RB where there seems to be some pretty strong underlying homophobic prejudice attached and condemnation for having lots of sexual partners – it’s important not to blur the two – sexuality and number of partners are not relevant – sexual abuse of minors, through abuse of power and position, exploitation & grooming really are. Please don’t jump down my throat for only saying minors too – I’m just remembering the US women’s movement has spent the last 30 years debating whether ‘mental coercion’ (ie: persuading a person to agree to have sex against their inner instinct but where they actually did not voice a refusal…) can be grounds for charging someone with sexual violation of an adult woman and has thankfully generally come down on the side of no. To blame a person for utilising whatever persuasive techniques are at their disposal (looks, money, power) to get another adult into bed is not a criminal offence. To have sex with someone who secretly didn’t want to have sex with you but did not say so is also not a criminal offence. Personal opinion is that it is a dangerous when you permit the law to treat people with a paternalism that says other people are more responsible for their actions than they themselves. That would be enshrining in law the kind passivity and lack of respect for human will and agency that seems to be at the heart of what is wrong with cults! My point is if my bfriend as an adult has sex with RB, well, I’d be pissed at him for a chosen infidelity, not the rest.
So wanted to start somewhere else – like with the beliefs and practices… something, I don’t even know quite what… maybe some political analysis of why FoF is so out on a limb and generally not progressive…?
Take the 44 angels / spirits / voices / guides (whatever!) for example – see posting no.1 – and my personal opinion: this is a load of sh*t – but not simply because it’s unprovable fantasy being peddled by a self-appointed guru who rips people off… because boyfriend will say ‘have a sense of humour – take it with a pinch of salt – these are just 44 interesting people…’
To me it’s more insidious than that … the 44 are nauseatingly white and male dominated and that is an indication of something really backward about the school. I understand 43 of the 44 are men – not a black person in sight – is that right?… and then there’s your token woman – Lizzie the first – great – a murderous monarch.
The trouble with these 44 folk, with labeling all those who not in the school as ‘machines asleep’ or something similar, with the really strong vertical hierarchy power structure of FoF, with having fancy wine dinners and classical music, charging a whopping great big fee, with the elitist segregation from the rest of society… blah blah… is that it’s all sounding a bit Aryan superrace – it is so spankingly politically uncool, not an ounce of egalitarian thinking in there as far as I can see.
34. EmmaGoldman:
‘burden of proof is always hard….’
Perhaps what you mean is:
‘Burton of proof is always hard. . .’
Viagra, Cialis, Levitra, etc., typically will do the HARD part for Burton, especially for the reluctant.
You got it: ‘really strong vertical hierarchy power structure of FoF’ is what counts. The better you can ‘get it up’ the more points you make with the ‘power structure.’
34 EmmaGoldman
Aryan superrace, you nailed it.
This one for Emma…
a very short post I am afraid…
Emma, from the little I read here about your situation and the mistakes I made being part of the Cult, I can only tell you that the best thing to do is to talk with your boyfriend.
The FOF is a cult. You are not part of their group, you are an outsider. They will either try to allure you to join or some will talk with your boyfriend to persuade him you are not an “ascending soul.”
Sorry to tell you that there are very few couples who have survived the toxic taste of the illusion called Fellowship of Friends – Pathway to Presence…
Emma,
All I can tell you now, is if your boyfriend is a descent looking, relatively yang guy, as it was mentioned above, then you guys in trouble.
Burton will do all he can to coerce him to sex. Burton likes orgies with 4-6 people and your boyfriend may be expossed to a perversion from the screens.
Not to mention the danger of diseases. Burton never use a condoms.
In any case, your relationship is already under attack, if Burton sponsored your boyfriend’s trip to Egypt in any way.
This guy is a pure evil, criminal to his bones, and he care not about anyone else but himself. A family unity is his first enemy and he was quite successful all those years breaking them up.
Thank you Panoritsa.
Hmmm yes – it’s interesting because from my earliest web research I pretty much concluded FoF is a cult and therefore did expect either an attempt at recruitment or more likely (as I’m plainly not open to recruitment… and not in contact with the rest of FoF to be placed in a recruitment situation anyway as an outsider) for the cult to try and break our relationship. But that doesn’t seem to have happened. Maybe our relationship is hidden to prying eyes by this member not being in the inner circle? Still waiting on that one!! Do they pry into the relationships of each and every member I wonder? The petition (which I read on x-ray’s recommendation!!) says they have 1600 members so keeping tabs on everyone’s relationship would be pretty hard I guess.
Although I am trying in my posts to not say too much so as to expose the identity of this member, as I think that would not be fair on him, I don’t know if I have already said enough to make it obvious to some FoF insider (if they read this site – which I guess they do) and where that will lead. I guess I’d actually welcome finding out I’d been labeled a non-ascending soul as that would be absolute proof on my doorstep that they are a cult then the gloves are off.
Crazy situation…. it wears me out. I have talked to my bfriend of course, in fact I wrote a nine page polemic ages ago to get my head round stuff but he laughed it off and normalised it all and my energy to fight went flat. On that note it has been thoroughly helpful when people posting here have talked about the normalisation process within FoF – that is seriously valuable to hear – it’s something I know in myself but am grateful to hear echoed from people who have been inside and left.
Emma,
I left the FoF in 2007, lived in Oregon House for 15 years, member for 25.
Women in FoF are definitely second class (they will not become conscious in this lifetime….), except where they have lots of money to give, or a handsome boyfriend, in which case they are courted assiduously.
I can think of maybe 6 members of color in the entire 25 years that I was there. More Asian born. Lots of South Americans (though very few in positions of authority). Lots of Russians and Eastern Europeans the last 10 years.
The property in Oregon House was originally Ponderosa pine/oak forest with a few meadows – it was clear-cut for grapes and lawn and roses and palm trees (all non-native, European flora).
RB (and therefore 90% of the members) encourages a European-style elitist hierarchical lifestyle. For many years only European classical, pre-20th century music and art (with a bit of oriental art thrown in) was allowed. Fancy clothes, homes, cars are valued – charity is not (unless it is charity to RB). Members are not supposed to be “identified” with anything happening in the world – not with world hunger, injustice, illiteracy, politics, etc. All of their attention is supposed to go to FoF.
For the decade before the RB-predicted 1998 earthquake/economic collapse that didn’t happen, RB discouraged folks from educating their children, since they would be “playing panpipes in the fields, herding sheep” in the future anyway. He asked members to purchase large quatities of big-ticket items like backhoes and houses on credt, since “we won’t have to pay the banks when California falls into the ocean in 1998”.
If women are 2nd class citizens, children are somewhere way down the list, not allowed on the property, and often not cared-for while their parents attend events there, often several times per week – I knew of some parents or single mothers who left their young children with baby sitters virtually every night (in day-care during the day) in order to attend events. FoF does not provide any sort of supervised child care, not even something like Sunday school. It can become difficult for mothers to find child care, and they sometimes consequently become less than happy with their children, or leave them on their own at fairly young ages.
The sort of “consciousness” the RB preaches is very self involved, inward. It does not encourage awareness of others’ needs, especially the needs outside of the property in Oregon House.
Your boyfriend, if he is interested in a more global, compassionate, more politically aware life, will need to shove all this under the bed (often referred to as “putting it on the back burner”), or he will leave FoF (hopefully!). He will not be able to voice any dissent for very long, the group think is just too strong.
Emma, no the members of FoF will not immediately, nor probably directly tell your boyfriend to leave your relationship, though they did do just that in the past. Nowadays it will all be a bit more indirect, they will simply not treat you as a peer, and you cannot, of course, attend the events with your boyfriend, which puts a barrier up right there. They will give him a year or two or even three to grow away from you, and then probably “suggest” that the relationship is holding him back from further growth. If he becomes close to RB, or even within RB’s radar, RB will eventually ask him to choose, but RB will hope that he “gets it” before it comes to that.
Also, Emma, to be fair, there are members who are more human than all that, and they may treat you just fine.
I don’t think his trip will be paid for by someone else but haven’t asked so, yes, it is something yet to be found out. Though of course, for this trip to be a money-making venture for FoF I suspect most people will pay for themselves?! Greedy capitalist charlatans aren’t known for their generosity!
Which leads to me to yet another point about why I detest FoF…. all these damn airflights around the globe – hello – impact on climate? It makes an absolute mockery of spiritualism and the search for higher consciousness to be so rubbish about climate change and the relationship of responsibility between people and the planet.
Sharon – just saw your postings now.
“Members are not supposed to be “identified” with anything happening in the world – not with world hunger, injustice, illiteracy, politics, etc. All of their attention is supposed to go to FoF”
That is woeful. Thank you for making that explicit.
39. EmmaGoldman – January 20, 2010
Well, first of all, there is no clear data on how many members are still in. The FOF is hiding real numbers in attempts to hid the tendency of a decline.
My estimate that now days the true numbers are somewhere around a 1000 active members, from which many are a lonely losers.
It would be very hard to count real families.
In FOF the very concept of family is discouraged.
Did you know that Burton was making women to give their kids away? He told them that it would be better for their evolution, but in reality it was only better to his packet and his sick self-image. The attention, adoration, money, energy and time, which supposed to be going blissfully to their kids, are now went to Burton.
In FOF there is not such a thing as a family unity, and even if you married, you really married on Burton, even though, your husband or your wife are having their own names.
Burton is the God Father to everyone, and if this Father will decide that you no longer fit with eathother, he will try to separate you. A family unity is a real threat to any totalitarian and tyrannical regime, and the reaction of your boyfriend is already a red flag to me.
And yes, the FOF is closely monitoring this Blog.
This Blog is always been a serious threat to them because it provides an alternative and truthfull information which always been under a heavy taboo in the cult and was falsely labeled as ‘gossips’, which means any criticism about Burton.
One such an asshole is a Daily Cardiac. He is playing here a specific role to confuse and distract people from real issues, whitewashing and justifying Burton’s criminality by all means.
I think you will have a chance to feel the sickness in your guts from his stupidity.
Emma, Emma…
A bit confused, aren’t you? Sharon gave a very accurate rendition of many aspects of REB-run FOF and its effects on ‘family’ life.
Let’s reiterate: REB only interests – as in motivations in life – are sex and money. He relentlessly cultivates these two interests under the guise of spiritual guidance for his flock of followers and ‘refinement’ of communal lifestyle. Everything he does that you can “see” is to provide an acceptable cover for these two interests: sex and money. He cares not about you one iota, unless you have money, then you become and object of intense interest (think rare south american butterfly), or your friend comes into his own predatory collimator, then you become the enemy. IF you like sexual competition, you will need lots of time and money to lure your friend away from REB clutches. As you may have been able to figure out from reading DC or having ‘conversations’ with your friend, sane, rational thinking takes a leave of absence once a FOF member.
Not so confused now – I am listening and learning ok and not necessarily responding to every good point, but taking it in and appreciating the time and energy people are sharing. Just a bit heartbroken, that’s all!!!
Emma,
we all been there, we understand your pain.
Emma, I apologize for the condescending bit above.
I just wish to emphasize that REB takes advantage of the more ‘liberalized’ attitudes of younger generations (as expressed in your posts). It helps his agenda of no morality but his self serving own. He can feast on the chronically depressed, morally defeated ones as well, and some have pointed out this may be the main reason for his recent predilection for eastern europeans.
Here is today’s daily card from Buttron
Because it is negatively charged, being unhappy is the only thing that makes the lower self happy
Emma:
“To blame a person for utilizing whatever persuasive techniques are at their disposal (looks, money, power) to get another adult into bed is not a criminal offence. To have sex with someone who secretly didn’t want to have sex with you but did not say so is also not a criminal offense. Personal opinion is that it is a dangerous when you permit the law to treat people with a paternalism that says other people are more responsible for their actions than they themselves.”
Would you feel the same way about a prison guard using their looks, money and power to get an inmate to have sex with them? After all, they are both adults.
How about priests using their looks, money, and power to have sex with as many followers as possible, married or not?
The removal of choice does not constitute consent.
If you boyfriend is under the age of 35 and good looking, then if he doesn’t or hasn’t had sex with mr burton yet, then I can guarantee you 100% that mr burton is subtly manipulating the reward center in your boyfriend’s brain to make sex with burton seem like an inevitability and a duty.
After all, along with the 44 “interesting people”, what’s the big deal about a half a tablespoon of semen, just to make a nice old guy happy?
Burton selectively grooms his victims by rewarding those he brings close to him with gifts, allowing them to sit next to him at the restaurant or in first class seats of airplanes, serving them more expensive wines than the rest of the group, while the rest of the entourage looks on and learns the game…taking wordless breaths and blocking all critical thought by repeating a “mantra” that literally hypnotizes the user into submission. Ask your boyfriend about the “sequence.”
Burton rotates his victims on a skewer of control, basking them in his attention until they are tender, their critical facilities burnt to a crisp, and they are ready to submit to his consumption without any resistance.
Been there, done that, fighting back.
Thank you so much for posting. Your participation here is invaluable.
Awesome responses you guys! 8)
Thanks and sorry – that was a bit self-piteous and I didn’t mean to fish for sympathy! Yes, having a very liberal attitude (a good thing I think: doesn’t mean no moral compass), not to mention being surrounded by lots of lovely people who are all happily into their various hippie healing spiritual mystical esoteric religious thang (ha! groan! not meant to sound too generalized or derogatory but you know what I’m saying!), has made a tough job in the past of putting a finger on why this one is different.
On the one hand it’s not nice to sneer or find yourself judging other people’s life choices just because you can’t get your head round it (it’s too easy and and it’s pretty ineffective in winning hearts and minds too… ) But that’s also a total cop out. And I am reminded of a wonderful quote from Alice Walker (which of course I can’t properly remember now but is always in my head somewhere) which basically challenges the liberal tendency towards cultural-relativity and says don’t lose sight of being able to say a thing is wrong or abusive just because you are an outsider (in this instance she’s referring to FGM).
So yes, FoF is definitely different and I see that now. And I’m pretty cross with myself for allowing it to fester rather than doing something earlier.
Re 51: Whalerider
“The removal of choice does not constitute consent.”
Hope I’m not going off in a tangent by responding to this.
All I’m saying is this point is tricky – mental coercion arguments were really popular in the 90’s particularly amongst (broadly) right wing feminists. Coercion is not a desirable state, of course, but my point is, is it criminal? For example if a man and woman go out and get drunk, end up having sex and she regrets it because it was not her intention and feels angry that her ability to judge was fogged by him encouraging her to have another glass… well devious as he may be, if she did not say no, then would it be fair to lock this guy up as a rapist? I personally don’t think so. If you criminalise him, you are saying in law he was responsible for a) knowing her inner feelings, even if not verbalised and b) beholden to be the person responsible for what was in her mind over and above her.
I’m using alcohol as the example because I’ve seen it reignite this debate over the past few years. It is tricky. Sure it is difficult to find yourself a feminist siding with a nasty guy… but there are also other important human right issues at stake here. It goes back to the argument of not forsaking one liberty in order to bring about an apparent greater security [that’s right! In opposition to the great George Bush and his arguments to support the great war on terror – Patriot Act – etc etc].
Emma, wow, that’s a better debunking than we often hear from Daily Cardiac.
Think about it in simple terms. Do you see a violation in trust here on the part of Burton in any way? Is he acting fraudulently in any way? Is he harming his followers by using his relative position of power to manipulate them? Do you sense there’s a serious illness in the scope and scale of his sexual activities with so many followers? Do you see any potential ethical violations in having sex with even ONE follower?
If you can’t answer “Yes” to any of those questions, or at the very least answer, “That’s entirely possible,” then THAT is cult indoctrination. Again, maybe it’s just your proximity to a cult member, but sometimes I sense you are equally as indoctrinated as some of the most devout.
Dear Emma and others
Thanks so much for your contribution. It brought the blog back to compassion / pain and caring for each other. Thanks.
My additions.
If your boyfriend does not have a green card…..? The joke in the Galeria was as follows. If you fall in love with a non American women, you are stupid.
If you are planning on having children use condoms, if you are not planning on having children, use condoms.
Many men who traveled with Robert will deny having sex with Robert. They do not want to admit and even Robert will say that having sex with him is a sacred/ secret act that you should not tell your girlfriends/ wives.
Dear Emma, I wish you the best and if you are living in OH there is a lot of support there.
Also check out
http://greaterfellowship.ning.com
It has many people who have gone to similar scenario’s.
I wish you well and send you warmth for you heart.
50. 2010 – January 20, 2010
Here is today’s daily card from Buttron
Because it is negatively charged, being unhappy is the only thing that makes the lower self happy
Fucking idiot.
Emma:
You are probably right in stating that from the legal standpoint, what REB sexual activities do not cross the criminal threshold (this has been DC argument).
From a moral standpoint, his behavior denotes psychopathic tendencies (reckless behavior and total lack of empathy to note but two) and has no formative value to his close entourage (rather the opposite as chronicled on these pages). In my mind and that of many others, this makes him totally unfit as a spiritual teacher, guide, mentor, whatever.
Do Fellowship directors ever formally discuss Robert’s predilection for heterosexual men with new or ‘prospective’ students?
It wasn’t mentioned on Pathways to Presence!
Must new people rely on fellowship gossip or on their own internet explorations to discover the truth…… ???
Emma,
When you going to the church and your pastor tells you that you have to have sex with him because that is the God’s will, how would you feel?
Well, I know how would you feel and that is how any person in his right mind and clear conscience would. But that is how Burton is, he telling people exactly that, that having sex with him is the God’s will and it’s best for your evolution. He abuses his position of power and he betraying the trust of his students. He is immoral, deeply sick cock sucker who must be locked in jail, and I am committed to help him out on this mission, even if I will be the last person talking on the Blog.
Why do you think there are laws of sexual harassment in the work place? So people don’t abuse others because of their position. This is the oldest story in the book.
Burton is a lack of integrity, immoral, heartless, evil retard who is polluting our planet among other criminals like him.
And beside, do you think a spiritual teacher should be fucking with his students who comes with open trusting heart to him to learn?
Does that sound right to you?
X-Ray and others, I understand your anger. Emma, I understand your confusion and heartbreak. All others, I understand your tender care in writing here.
But despite so many differing viewpoints about Burton and the FOF, I take heart that a growing number of people agree on one thing — that within the fof there’s a serious set of illnesses that have consequences for its participants, for friends, for families, and all connected. I know that hundreds who are still stuck there know this in their hearts, and even discuss it. Eventually, they’ll be able to connect the dots as many of us have, and take action — i.e., they’ll stop supporting this man. It takes time, but some sizable bits of denial are falling away. That’s good to see. Keep talking; keep writing.
In addition to what is stated in:
51. WhaleRider
Consider that the most challenging, and therefore the most desired, sexual conquest for Robert Earl Burton is to induce as many heterosexual young men as possible to abandon their sexual orientation and have oral, anal, or other types of sex with him. From one point of view, all Fellowship of Friends activity, no matter how mundane or noble, exists to serve that end.
And if there are no laws against spiritual crime, it does not mean there is not crime. It’s a matter of clear conscience, high moral values, decency, integrity and ethics, all which Burton doesn’t have.
Yet, he still can be putted away for a tax fraud and illegal international cash transfers. These crimes are recognized by the system.
89/28. Bares Reposting – January 20, 2010
‘87/204. Associated Press – December 28, 2009
Top reasons Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan rather than Egypt or Mexico. Continued:
Reason 3 Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan:
The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
(#2807) PBS/Frontline
Original Air Date: 19 January 2010
(Season 28, Episode 1)
Be sure to watch it.
[This episode of Frontline did not air in my location and was preempted by a repeat play on Iran. maybe it will show next week or in future.]’
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
PBS/Frontline Postpones “Dancing Boys of Afghanistan” Film
Documentary delayed due to safety concerns over one of boys in film
By Marisa Guthrie — Broadcasting & Cable, 1/15/2010 5:20:26 PM
Executives at Frontline have postponed the premiere of The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan due to concerns over safety of one of the boys featured in the film.
The documentary details the ancient Afghan custom of “Bacha Bereesh,” which literally means “beardless boys,” who are trained to dance and sing for male audiences. The boys are sold to wealthy patrons and former warlords who keep them as concubines. Islamic clerics are outraged by the practice, and have ordered the authorities to crack down.
Afghan journalist Najibullah Quraishi infiltrated a sexual exploitation ring in Northern Afghanistan, talking with several boys and their “masters” and also documenting how the Afghan authorities responsible for protecting the boys are often complicit in their continued enslavement.
The Frontline investigation was set to debut Jan. 19 on PBS stations. A repeat of A Death in Tehran will air instead.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/
Emma:
“For example if a man and woman go out and get drunk, end up having sex and…”
You totally missed my point.
There is no imbalance of power in two people meeting a bar on equal footing. There is little or nothing at stake if the woman (or man) says no thanks.
But I asked you about the ethics of a prison guard or a priest using their looks, power, or money to manipulate others charged in their care like an inmate or parishioner to have unsafe sex with them.
In burton’s case he systematically removes choice in his victims with his position of authority (using the teacher/student frame), isolating of victims, fostering of dependence, suspending of morals, grandiose “higher” mission, promises of salvation, rewarding of compliance, silencing of dissent, and thought blocking.
In reality, choice is an illusion for someone in your boyfriend’s position, especially when to leave the cult is tantamount to spiritual death.
We are talking about a serial sexual predator here, not someone just out to boff his secretary.
The removal of choice is does not constitute consent.
If I were you, I’d make your boyfriend wear a condom.
Emma –
Here is a little more about your friend’s supposed teacher…………..
This list has been posted before.
Remember – it requires having only 5 of these criteria to earn the diagnosis of “Narcissistic Personality Disorder”, or the title used by Dr. Vaknin of “Malignant Narcissist”.
From information on this blog and from stories on the GF site it would appear that Robert Burton ‘nails’ the whole list – a remarkable 9 out of 9.
**************
– begin quoted section –
Here are the 9 criteria. Having 5 of these 9 “qualifies” you as a narcissist…
1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion
3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).
5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations
6. Is “interpersonally exploitative”, i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends
7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others
8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her
9. Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.
The language in the criteria above is based on or summarized from:
American Psychiatric Association. (1994). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association.
Sam Vaknin. (1999, 2001). Malignant Self Love – Narcissism Revisited, second, revised printing Prague and Skopje: Narcissus Publication. (“Malignant Self Love – Narcissism Revisited” [http://www.geocities.com/vaksam/faq1.html])
– end quoted section –
Emma Goldman,
Hi! I’ve been reading along this page and really appreciate your questions and the many thoughtful responses from a number of old friends. You seem to be well educated and aware of many of the fine points relating to the legalities surrounding sexual abuse and feminism. So you can collect info here on the inside practices of Robert Burton, but ultimately you can only warn your boyfriend. He has to live his own life and make his own choices. And according to the theories and practices of the Fellowship, the more you harp on the “RB sex thing”, the more you will reinforce their doctrines relating to the lower self in his own mind. It could turn out to be a vicious circle?
And this whole esoteric knowledge thing might be putting you out of your own intellectual comfort zone? And geez, who want to read all those musty books? Nevertheless, you might try a different approach? Try educating both yourself and your boyfriend just a little bit on what the Fourth Way should really be about? Check out the Gurdjieff Foundation? Tell them what you know about Robert Burton and the teachings of the Fellowship. If they say it is a twisted interpretation of Gurdjieff’s ideas (which it is) then ask why. Ask if the Fourth Way – or the distortion of the Fellowship – has anything to do with “non-duality” (the essence of all spirituality)?
Another alternative is to pick up a copy of The Guru Papers by Kramer and Alstadt (read it, and of course, pass it along to your boyfriend). They wrote a very intelligent analysis of why the power structure that can be an aspect of the guru-disciple relationship and is an inherent aspect of most if not all spiritual communities is also inherently faulted. (Ultimately, I don’t agree with the conclusions of Kramer and Alstadt but nevertheless, their analysis cannot be ignored.)
Good luck! And keep us posted here?
Wow – I am overwhelmed and the kindness and thought poured out here.
Ellen – thank you – you have pre-empted the question that was gathering in my mind since yesterday (after venting quite alot and feeling a bit in shock actually) – what now – really what now? How to go forward and make something of this intelligently without steamrollering blindly…
James – that is a very useful and clear list. It also reminds me of another useful tool – this definition of a cult (I don’t know what people here think of this…) that I found on my earliest web trawls and was very useful to me:
“A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.” (West & Langone, 1986).
On that note to Whalerider, X-ray and others: I did start writing a reply yesterday and then thought better to digest and glad of that. I have given it thought (yep – didn’t sleep well) to what you have said about the sexual exploitation/abuse/manipulation within the group and think I missed the point yesterday and was not comfortable that I was ending up in a position of ‘denying people’s experience’ (Doh! Equality Lesson 101!!). Which is strange considering my own experiences work, personal and not to mention having brought a sexual harassment case against someone in the past!
It does seem to be the sad outcome of many a person who either assumes or is elevated, or both, to a position of authority – and very often of ‘spiritual’ authority – to abuse the trust, hope and power vested in them by taking something from the heart, soul, body and /or wallet of the people who come to them. It is beyond sad; it perpetuates inequality and damages people, often forever. How a person can justify that to themselves is a mystery. How they get their ‘followers’ to normalise is even more of a mystery.
Thinking back to why I was quite oppositional yesterday and why not now? Something did not seem watertight in what was being said to me, some flaw, and I did not want to roundly condemn someone – particularly for sexual misconduct – without squaring that in my mind:
Question to self yesterday was where to start – who to compare RB to when evaluating the trust relationship and whether it had been broken – a teacher of students (children or adults) with an explicit relationship of trust towards their students who is bound by a professional code of ethics OR a bar-owner who is running a business and having sex with as many of the customers as possible and ‘that’s the way business goes…. ‘ ie: no-one bats an eyelid.
Clearly RB claims to be in the first bracket by appointing himself as spiritual guru-in-chief – and by gaining legal status as a church that is entirely reinforced.
However, to a sceptical outsider this masquerade is so laughable (“California is going to fall in the sea” or however it goes) that it’s hard to grant him any spiritual status – he appears like just another businessman on the make (not condoning this btw) and I wondered how people joining his group really see him: could it be he is seen as a visionary business man or maybe even a harmless albeit slightly ominous old circus clown with a bewildering and bizarre intelligence so people fondly overlook his blatant penchant for sticking his greedy hand in the cookie-boy jar? If he’s not seen as the genuine article how genuine is the power relationship he hold to others?
I was also asking myself also if we are hanging on to older, more conservative and puritanical opinions about the kind of sexual behavior expected from someone ‘spiritual’ – you know, a monk’s life and all that – and as I said before I have felt uncomfortable with what I have occasionally perceived as an element of homophobia or judgment regarding the number of sexual partners here and elsewhere – that kind of prejudice clouds reason and certainly doesn’t win my heart or mind! [I think of many dear friends gay, bi and straight who have had more partners than could fill a cathedral and I don’t bat an eyelid because it’s their business – so what!]. Spirituality has different definitions and a varied history of mainstreams and alternatives- and freedom of sexual expression has been a rare and often proud part of that. And much to our shame so has severe sexual repression and a denial of human nature.
But regardless of which category he is – teacher, businessman or beloved/feared clown- or all 3 – and regardless of how liberating sexual freedom can be – it is a widely accepted, with good foundation, that a position of power carries responsibility. RB is in a position where people approaching him are potentially vulnerable – more vulnerable than usual – because they are looking for spiritual guidance in some form, whether in strength or weakness, they are opening themselves in faith to being susceptible to influence. A person with real genuine intent, love for others and integrity would not stoop to treat that, or be seen to treat that, with any less than the care and respect it deserves. Care and respect means setting boundaries to protect your position and other people. That has not been the case.
Even if it were the case that every single one of the followers RB has had sex with had consented, or fawned for his attention because it felt good, or found him attractive, or enjoyed it, whatever – the point is it is a line he should not have crossed. Oh listen to me the great and righteous – ok MAYBE there can be some rare exceptions, like a real connection with a person you happen to meet in a given circumstance … but there has to be equality, an absence of too many factors pointing towards a power imbalance [I’m thinking of a couple of college professor friends who are happily married with kids to former students but even they – and considering adult education is a slightly different ballgame anyway- waited until the teacher-student relationship was over before forming those relationships.]
Sounds like RB plucks people at the earliest opportunity. Routinely.
And that thought feels a whole lot more uncomfortable than the discomfort I had originally at not wanting to condemn a guy without a fair trial.
More from Emma: “I was also asking myself also if we are hanging on to older, more conservative and puritanical opinions about the kind of sexual behavior expected from someone ’spiritual’ – you know, a monk’s life and all that – and as I said before I have felt uncomfortable with what I have occasionally perceived as an element of homophobia or judgment regarding the number of sexual partners here and elsewhere – that kind of prejudice clouds reason and certainly doesn’t win my heart or mind! [I think of many dear friends gay, bi and straight who have had more partners than could fill a cathedral and I don’t bat an eyelid because it’s their business – so what!]. Spirituality has different definitions and a varied history of mainstreams and alternatives- and freedom of sexual expression has been a rare and often proud part of that. And much to our shame so has severe sexual repression and a denial of human nature.”
Every time I read one of your posts, you’re sounding more like a cult apologist and cult defender, than someone who is confused or distraught over a boyfriend and his involvement with a guru. You dropped in to say, “Help!” Well, there’s a simple formula… The more denial you put forth, the less help you’re going to get.
You’ve mentioned more than once now about the idea of “winning hearts and minds” — making a huge assumption that this is the reason that people are writing. Personally, I’m not interested in “winning” your mind, or anyone else’s, but I do see the value in commentary that’s routinely smothered within the cult. I hope it’s helping someone. I don’t know what it’s “winning.”
The main thing is to win your OWN mind. Because one’s mind is the first thing to go when you join a cult. I know this: Brain-twisting justifications and convoluted defenses can’t bring it back.
69. Spock
“Every time I read one of your posts, you’re sounding more like a cult apologist and cult defender, than someone who is confused or distraught over a boyfriend and his involvement with a guru.”
Well, Emma Goldman was a radical anarchist….
Groan. “winning the hearts and minds!” is meant lightly, tongue in cheek, no need to switch all the trumpets on! Relax!
And please, that is maybe the third or fourth time you have barked out that my opinion is ‘sounding like cult indoctrination / defense/ apologist’ – blah – it’s ridiculous. If you’re on this blog seriously then the one thing you want to be doing well is distinguishing carefully between what is and what isn’t cult behavior.
Repeatedly boxing my opinion into the confines of ‘cult’ everytime I disagree with you is wrong. I just have a different opinion to you ok?
Emma,
In several instances, you find a way to slide in some fairly articulate, well-thought-out defenses for Burton. Keep posting, but you’ll get some fairly direct disagreement, and not just from me. You asked for help…
Dick, yep I noticed that… great name to pick.
69.Spock
[Polite question] And how exactly is a confused or distraught person meant to sound by the way??
Like “boo hoo blub blub blub”?
That’s not your call to make!
Engaging and talking with people on here and feeling free to explore ideas and understand a bit better is hopefully not entirely out of kilter with why tis blog was set up? Best cure I’ve found for confusion, feeling isolated and the blues!
By the way, it doesn’t “sound” like cult indoctrination. It is in fact cult indoctrination.
I’m not sure if in your case it’s just the proximity to a number of people within the cult, or if you’ve been a follower in another cult, but you have many of the symptoms… Here’s me not too long ago. “What Robert does in his bedroom isn’t my business,” and so forth. All very typical.
Actually, the only reason I’m even writing at all is that I don’t box you in with Daily Cardiogram and other apologists, but I will point out the thinking that bears a distinct similarity. You have some thoughtful things to say… Keep posting and take your own advice and relax.
Hi Emma,
Anyone who would accuse you of defending cults or Burton has not yet freed themself from the cult-like behavior of damning any opinion that does not completely align with their own.
Spock (and many others on this blog) stand high-and-mighty, now that they are free of Burton, to tell everyone else what is and what is not cult-like behavior.
Its a stage in the getting-out process, and it will pass…
walter.tanner@gmail.com
74. Spock
Chuckle. So coming from a feminist background makes me a cult member eh? That’s fine – I heard that one so many times before…
you might be right!! No worries, debate is healthy.
76. No. Didn’t say that.
75. WT, why doesn’t it surprise me that you’d jump in? First of all, the words from the above poster speak for themselves, and it doesn’t require any deep analysis — other than just reading them — to see that the words defend Burton.
What I expressed was a dissenting opinion, and not a “damning” of anyone’s opinion. Expressing dissent is definitely not something I learned in the cult. Hadn’t heard that one before. Nice try, though.
Burton GO TO JAIL…
Dear Emma and others,
No worries, debate is healthy. Love this ‘Emma quote’
When I read the following:
“I was also asking myself also if we are hanging on to older, more conservative and puritanical opinions about the kind of sexual behavior expected from someone ’spiritual’ – you know, a monk’s life and all that – and as I said before I have felt uncomfortable with what I have occasionally perceived as an element of homophobia or judgment regarding the number of sexual partners here and elsewhere – that kind of prejudice clouds reason and certainly doesn’t win my heart or mind! [I think of many dear friends gay, bi and straight who have had more partners than could fill a cathedral and I don’t bat an eyelid because it’s their business – so what!]. Spirituality has different definitions and a varied history of mainstreams and alternatives- and freedom of sexual expression has been a rare and often proud part of that. And much to our shame so has severe sexual repression and a denial of human nature.”
I go back to 95/94 when theTroy Buzbee case came about. I interviewed many men and boys and remember myself, thinking in similarities as the above. Who people sleep with and how many, is not my business. I have gay and bisexual friends and still their sex life is not my business. 15 years later working with many people I have learned a few things.
RB sexual behavior is bizarre and I do not want to go into details.
Robert’s sexuality is not per definition “gay” it is pedophilia. He chooses most men who look very young and they have to be above 18 because of the law. When his appetite is increased he lines as much men up, as possible. He has expressed this himself as follows: “‘Contacting younger people will bring you in prison. After 2006, when the so called end of the world would happen, you would not be persecuted, if you would have sex with a minor”. (Completely unemphatic to minors, see” traits of a narcissist”.)
The other aspect, I discovered, is that many women who are gay also have a history of sexual abuse. Interesting to me and the relationship to a extending appetite of sexual interest, is somehow a dis balance. It is an addiction. Do your own google research, there is plenty info on the internet.
My other concern, is that women with multiple sex partners have an increase risk of PID ( pelvic inflammatory disease).
Women with PID have an increase risk of infertility. The emancipation wave and our MD’s and family parent planning hood do not mention this info. Having anal sex increase the risk of infections (e Coli).
Emma 16 years later I know so much more and my naivety is reduced and my view on what is, is quite something different.
As a last note: This time I do a agree with WT, my response to your entrees is part of working through my own situation. Emma thanks for the opportunity. Life is a healing process.
And yes anger is part of the stage of grief/ mourning.
So Emma Goldman, what do you think about the Petition?
Are you going to sign it or not?
Burton Launches New Cult Start-Up, Steps Down as FOF Head Honcho
OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — In a stunning development Friday, Fellowship of Friends Chief Executive Cult Leader Robert Burton announced he’s leaving the FOF to launch a new cult. Burton plans to head the new organization “somewhere overseas,” he said, and he may bring a few of his closest advisors with him. The name of the new cult will be The Followship.
“Time to start anew,” Burton said Friday.
Sources with The FOFion suggest that angel investors are contributing “significant amounts” to the new cult, which many believe will turn some heads in the cult industry.
“He’s hitting the ground running from what I understand,” said one insider, who asked to remain anonymous. “Some believe that whatever he did in the FOF, he’ll do twice as much in The Followship. The general consensus is that the new cult will charge twice as much money, and cause twice as much friction for its participants as they continue their never-ending quest to transform suffering and reach a higher level of being, thus securing their spot in heaven. It’s exciting.”
Fellowship of Friends shares traded evenly on the Paradise Stock Exchange Friday as investors awaited the announcement of Burton’s successor. No word yet on mass layoffs or whether the Apollo Headquarters will be turned into a huge casino property.
“Of course, what remains wouldn’t be an Indian casino, but maybe an Egyptian casino,” Burton said in an apparent attempt at humor during the press conference. After an awkward moment of silence, Burton added: “That is not my concern though. I’m not one to worry about the problems I leave behind. That’s the Lower Self.”
Many observers have noted several odd similarities between Apollo and Las Vegas, although they also note that Apollo is on a much smaller scale and much gaudier than Las Vegas.
“It’s hard to believe that possible,” said a local critic of the FOF. “But it is. I fully expect dozens of neon signs in the shape of palm trees by the middle of this coming decade.”
One insider suggests that Burton will continue to visit his home at Apollo and actually may spend just as much time there even after launching The Followship.
“Interesting,” she said. “You get the feeling that nothing will have changed.”
Thanks Dick –
I smell a troll;
“Goldman was also an outspoken critic of prejudice against homosexuals. Her belief that social liberation should extend to gays and lesbians was virtually unheard of at the time, even among anarchists. She was the first and only woman, indeed the first and only American, to take up the defense of homosexual love before the general public. In numerous speeches and letters she defended the right of gays and lesbians to love as they pleased and condemned the fear and stigma associated with homosexuality. Goldman wrote; “It is a tragedy, I feel, that people of a different sexual type are caught in a world which shows so little understanding for homosexuals and is so crassly indifferent to the various gradations and variations of gender and their great significance in life.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman
Emma (or whatever your name might be…)
don’t go wasting so much energy intellectualizing and writing about “interesting” issues. If your issue is your loved one and your concern real, go and talk to THEM.
Well, if Emma Goldman is the one who was mentioned by 82. apostate – January 22, 2010, and she is here to promote her general line of defense of homosexuality, calling this moral degradation and mental illness – love, then she deserve the situation she got in.
Or she can be just another fellowship shill, with a made up story of her boyfriend.
We will see it soon..
In the main time, she has not answered my question if she is going to sign the Petition to investigate the FOF.
Just looked at wiki…
Emma died long ago, but regardless, she is looking like a men to me, which tells me that she could have disbalance in her hormone system, which could consequently lead her to same sex attraction, which she tried to justify with her political views, and which has nothing to do with a human rights, but with her own issues.
In any case, the Emma Goldman which we having here is currently under my suspicion.
x-ray:
“…and she is here to promote her general line of defense of homosexuality, calling this moral degradation and mental illness – love, then she deserves the situation she got in.”
Dude, if what I am to understand here is correct, you think homosexuality is a moral degradation and a mental illness or some kind of “imbalance of hormones”, and that would place you out on the right wing christian conservative Rush Limbaugh crazy fuck Fox News side of the sphincter scale.
For some, homosexuality may offend their religious beliefs, but it is by no means a mental illness nor a crime. Burton’s vagrant exploitation of his followers falls into a completely different category of behavior.
No one has the right to decide for another whom to love.
Are you from Uganda?
82. Apostate and dick,
Yep, I smell the same.
My instincts tell me that this Emma Gold person is the real deal and not a shill/troll.
I was able to keep my friends and family from persuading me to leave the FOF by continually pointing out all the “positive” elements of being a member. If her boyfriend has been giving her the same rap, it’s not hard to see why she might feel judgmental by insisting on an opposite viewpoint.
2010: Who knows, and frankly who cares. What exactly were we talking about again? Was it Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends?
Is it possible that certain posters are the “real deal”? Sure! Do we know they are? No, not really.
But it really doesn’t matter who or “what” anyone is or what they’re up to…. In the end, since we’re not sitting across a table from each other, the main question is what they write What sort of messages are they trying to convey? Do they use the same old tired phrases they learned in the cult? Are they resistant to hearing anything that criticizes the Fourth Way or Robert Burton? Do they find ways to frame the argument? Do they use a lot of straw men?
The blog is obviously a bit of a game — hell, the Fellowship of Friends is a game (I’ve often thought the analogy of a “game” is more apt than than calling it a “play.”). There are many people playing their parts. Some try to deceive, some just want attention, and some want to vent. Some are lonely and need a community. The best game players are able to use and manipulate others to serve their agendas, or they get people to jump in some way, and get off on that.
And part of the game here is to laugh and deny when someone suggests they might be playing a game. Are we having fun yet?
83. Panoritsa
Thank you – yes I will upon his return from Egypt. It was good to come here and think and listen in the meantime rather than sit and bite my nails. It has been good to go into things into a bit more depth here though writing and to speak to real people who listen and respond, which is the first opportunity I’ve had on this subject.
I am going to ask my partner to read the whole thread when he comes back as many of the contributions are really powerful and say things that I could never have said and to see there is real thought and discussion here – I suspect he has ‘written off’ forums like this in the past…
…which brings me to
82. Apostate & 84 & 85 Xray
… who are sadly doing the best jobs of undermining the credibility of this forum. Sounding paranoid and bigoted is the easiest way to score for the other team.
Thanks guys – if my boyfriend and others remain in FoF after laughing at this site it will be those kind of contributions that did it.
Yes of course I’m using a pseudonym as are you. All this analysis of a pen name is pointless – it was a random choice to pick the famous Emma Goldman because simply, she’s cool. Funny – I didn’t even remember her champion of sexual rights connection until later because it’s really not a shocking issue to me or I hope for the majority of people on this site. Geez – Emma Goldman was a radical thinker in her time – a century ago -but not now! Either get with the times or get off this site because your hatred has no place here or anywhere else.
From the start I have challenged in my own right a perceptible undercurrent of homophobia on here… and asked if there is a genuine grievance against Robert or just mindless prejudice about gays. Many people have shown there is a genuine grievance.
It is so sad that you only have the courage to openly respond and out your opinion now … through attacking my pseudonym. Typical cowardice of a bigot. Well good – now you’re outed and hopefully others will distance themselves from your comments and give this site the credibility it deserves. More voices needed!
I did have further issues I wanted to discuss here – to ask about the so-called verification process used by FoF (though maybe its a Gurdijeff) which would be good to deconstruct because my very real boyfriend stands by it and I feel it is a dangerous tool in the wrong hands for securing belief without real proof. I also wanted to offer some advice – again from very real experience of using them to great effect- on getting the petition better written – as it stands it is too long and it needs to be explicit that it is not about targeting gay people. Maybe then I’ll sign it – but if you’re looking for the name Emma Goldman on there you won’t see it.
88. 2010 – spot on
89.Spock – well said!
67. Ellen
Thanks by the way for recommending The Guru Papers – have just bought a copy.
Actually I’m not particularly convinced or persuaded one way or the other about many posters — not just EmmaG. It’s obvious there’s a fair amount of insincerity on the blog, which is not surprising. We were taught insincerity in the FOF a LOT more than we were taught and to be ourselves and to express ourselves.
It’s hard for me to feel sympathy for someone who believes there’s a “perceptible undercurrent of homophobia” that is driving people’s viewpoints here. It’s fairly obvious to anyone who’s spent any time near the FOF and read more than a few pages here that this is a straw man.
But look, we could analyze all of this, and twist ourselves in knots arguing about it. But when does a person simply open one’s eyes and see the insanity?
You can’t teach that. But you can definitely teach someone to close their eyes, and that largely explains Burton’s relative success at keeping the follow-ship afloat.
Emma, there is a discussion about verification on the Greater Fellowship networking site, both from the FoF approach, and from the approach some have found after leaving (somewhat different!).
http://greaterfellowship.ning.com/ The site is mostly comprised of ex-members, but there are a few current FoF members there too.
You have to join the network to view or participate, which requires either an invitation, or approval by the administrators.
In the FOF, you are taught the following:
– Avoid direct questioning.
– Avoid questions about Burton and the FOF.
– If you have a sense that something is wrong, immediately squash that sense.
– Do not express yourself, because that elf is probably feminine dominance, the lower self, false personality, the king of clubs, vanity, and more.
– Act like using the “work language” is expressing yourself.
– Avoid expressing any disapproval of Burton and the FOF.
– Avoid skepticism.
– Have a sense of humor, unless you perceive something humorous about Burton and the FOF. When the topic of Burton and the FOF enters a conversation, be serious.
– “Photograph” people freely, because they need it for awakening and you need to learn not to “inner consider,” but whatever you do don’t photograph Burton or the organization as a whole.
– Be seen “doing the work.”
… and more.
#90 Emma
“…..to ask about the so-called verification process used by FoF”
The problem with the Fellowship “verification” process is that Robert Burton and his devoted followers spin all sorts of stories that amount to folklore and pure fantasy. I remember being at one of his dinners with about 25 people and he kept cupping his ears when he would listen to people speak – as if he were heard of hearing. He explained during the dinner that he had no hearing problem. The reason he cupped his ears was because it slowed down his higher centers which operate at such a high speed that he needs to slow them down and the cupping of the ears achieved just that. No one in the room questioned or challenged the concept or the technique. Everybody just “goes with the flow” (of bullshit).
The reason the blog has the potential to be so effective is because it is a forum to question and in many cases expose the fraud and corruption that exists inside the Fellowship CULT. If you want to get a taste of the bullshit, read the letter from David Lubbers (springfield) to the fellowship board. You can google “David Springfield letter” and you might find it. The fellowship has gone through great lengths to get it removed from every possible outlet that might reproduce it.
95. Spock
Can you explain what you mean by
– “Photograph” people freely
… sorry to be dumb, are you referring to normal photography with a camera or does it have another meaning – just asking because you put it in speech tags? Thanks.
90. EmmaGoldman
“Thanks guys – if my boyfriend and others remain in FoF after laughing at this site it will be those kind of contributions that did it.”
Give me a break. If that’s what you think then you’re not even near a starting point as far as assimilating what’s being said and going on here.
“From the start I have challenged in my own right a perceptible undercurrent of homophobia on here… and asked if there is a genuine grievance against Robert or just mindless prejudice about gays. Many people have shown there is a genuine grievance.”
You don’t have your listening cap on. It’s been said over and over and over that homosexuality is NOT the point, sex, per se, is NOT the point The abuse of power for sex is one of the points. I don’t give a fuck who RB fucks as long as he’s not using his station, power, money and bull shit to facilitate debauching what are, in many cases, heterosexual youths being manipulated by the crap and dogma that is the FOF.
“perceptible undercurrent of homophobia on here”
THAT’S what has some here disbelieving your sincerity and honesty.
“Typical cowardice of a bigot. Well good – now you’re outed and hopefully others will distance themselves from your comments and give this site the credibility it deserves. More voices needed!”
That’s what we need more of here…Sanctimonious crap.
And yes, after a couple years we’ll re-write the petition that Ford Green helped author, so YOU’LL deign to sign it. Please, don’t be such a jerk.
64. Associated Press
‘The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
(#2807) PBS/Frontline
Original Air Date: 19 January 2010
(Season 28, Episode 1)
Be sure to watch it.
[This episode of Frontline did not air in my location and was preempted by a repeat play on Iran. maybe it will show next week or in future.]‘
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
PBS/Frontline Postpones “Dancing Boys of Afghanistan” Film
Documentary delayed due to safety concerns over one of boys in film
By Marisa Guthrie — Broadcasting & Cable, 1/15/2010 5:20:26 PM
Executives at Frontline have postponed the premiere of The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan due to concerns over safety of one of the boys featured in the film.’
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Notice how easy it is to silence freedom of information (even in major media outlets) about such subjects.
98. brucelevy – Ow! Fair points there though – taken. Good to hear. Thanks.
Emma:
“…the process of verification.”
Upon closer examination you’re likely to find that in the FOF it’s really the process of “verifabrication”.
2010’s story is awesome. It is an example of the hypnotic processes of “presupposition” and “mind reading”.
Burton is obviously defensive about his aging process and inherent hearing loss which happens to many people. His narcissism notices people at the dining table looking at him and making assumptions, so he “reads their minds” and fires back with “cupping his ears slows his higher centers down”, which is laughable…yet since humor is prohibited, no one at the table is laughing, and he creates an uncomfortable “defining moment” for everyone.
Since determining whether or not another person even has “higher centers” functioning at any speed is debatable, the mind will do an end run around burton’s “cupping comment” and unconsciously accept the presupposition that burton has higher centers functioning (notwithstanding to be in the position of authority he has placed himself), and then rather than challenge burton’s authority followers self-censor the original thought that in fact he might be experiencing some hearing loss that normallly comes with age and verifabricate burton’s higher centers for his benefit with a smile and a nod of the head. Thus he uses this domineering thought reforming technique to reinforce his authority and control.
The other story I have read in this vein is how burton will point to his forehead and pointedly ask if his follower can “see” his third eye.
This puts the person in a double bind. If you say “no”, this relfects their lack of valuation and spiritual abilites. If you say “yes”, then you are forced to suspend your disbelief and your critical mind, which happens to be the definition of hypnosis. At that point the gates are left wide open for the process of verifabrication to proceed of just about anything the spews from burton’s cum drenched lips.
The forum on verifications on Greater Fellowship has pretty much ended.
The way I see the topic in relation to FOF is that ‘verification’ worked to a certain extent in the beginning (roughly prior to 95), but has since become but a word. In those years new members were given a set of ideas (4th way) and ‘invited’ to experiment with them. Yes, the ideas had a strong undercurrent of ideology and its potentially evil authoritarian attributes, but one of the premises was that the ideas were largely empirically derived (from observations). So members could go about their activities and try to observe others and themselves, share and discuss observations with others and have a chance to reflect on it. The leader, REB, was largely invisible to the masses and mostly occupied in developing his money and sex trade, delegating the running of operations, including ‘teaching’, to selected members. Hierarchy was present, at times suffocating, but one could say there was opportunity for ‘verification’, within the provided system of ideas and without (the structural make-up of FOF). Steady outflow of members occurred during these years, from ‘verifying’ that these so-called 4th way ideas lead nowhere, that FOF is a dangerous cult, that REB is a sociopath, or combination of all.
After 95 and after REB dodged the second major sex scandal of his tenure, he (REB) must have realized that he probably could get away with much more than what he was trying to some extent to hide until then: multiple sexual partners and funneling of funds for his private rewards. After 1995, he seems emboldened to do more, to become more visible. Playing on the adulation of his members, he sells dinners, artistic ‘events’, videos of dinners and events, recycled at auctions artifacts that were acquired with membership money, etc… In 2000, he starts leading meetings again (he had stopped in 78), for a fee, a large fee. His intellectual limitations become rapidly evident (evident but rarely discussed, if at all), as he tries to expand on the ideas of the 4th way from his own, supposedly that of an enlightened being. In 2004, he moves to obscurantism, first with ‘keys’ to interpret the bible, then to an ever more obscure distillation of the world wisdom, all for the benefit of the chosen few, at a very large fee. During these later years, the narrative goes from 4th way ideas to a new, wacky brand of religion, where verification has no place (by definition) but when used, meant as alignment to the dogma, to the spoken word and the authority (REB and his flying monkeys as aptly named by Bruce). Members are no longer allowed to speak at meetings, they are basically asked not to eat during dinners and to study the spoken word, all the while the leader is piling up sexual partners and spending lavish amount of money to travel to exotic locations. By then, the FOF has moved from a group concerned with personal, empirical, spiritual search to a devotional organization where the retention of the revealed word is the only allowed ‘intellectual’ activity.
One could say that the recent wave of member departure was largely, and literally from ‘disbelief’.
34. EmmaGoldman:
‘But then I have also read attacks on RB where there seems to be some pretty strong underlying homophobic prejudice attached and condemnation for. . .’
68. EmmaGoldman:
‘as I said before I have felt uncomfortable with what I have occasionally perceived as an element of homophobia or judgment regarding. . .’
90. EmmaGoldman:
‘From the start I have challenged in my own right a perceptible undercurrent of homophobia on here…’
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Darling, EmmaGoldman,
It is, and almost always was been, just as Bruce states:
’98. brucelevy
It’s been said over and over and over that homosexuality is NOT the point, sex, per se, is NOT the point The abuse of power for sex is one of the points. I don’t give a fuck who RB fucks as long as he’s not using his station, power, money and bull shit to facilitate debauching what are, in many cases, heterosexual youths being manipulated by the crap and dogma that is the FOF.’
I would deduce from your not-so-well-read short tenure here that you are ‘homo-paranoid’.
The issue IS THE SEXPLOITATION.
97. “Can you explain what you mean by “photograph”?”
At first, I was going to pass.
But now that you’ve asked it got me thinking a bit more. So I’m glad you did ask. Maybe it’s just me, but I find the idea of “photographs” particularly interesting with regard to this cult, and I think it’s an especially appropriate topic for this blog.
I don’t recall if Ouspensky or Gurdjieff or Collin ever described “photographs” quite like this or if they describe photographs at all, but the FOF encouraged (and I imagine still encourages) people to tell each other what they see in each other… if they believed they were slouching too much, talking too loudly or too quietly, being overly demonstrative, being too shy, being negative, doing something they shouldn’t be doing, not doing something they should be doing, if they were trying to be something they weren’t — whatever you like, right or wrong, helpful or not helpful. A typical “photograph” was to tell someone they were vain, or willful, or that they were very intellectual, or very emotional, or “instinctive”, or not intellectual, or not emotional. A favorite topic of photographs was related to “body types,” which according to Fourth Way theories included seven types that correspond to five planets, the sun, and the moon. Asking someone what “type they were working with” (or telling them what type they should be working with) almost became akin to asking someone their “sign” when they meet at a party. It was probably the most common topic of photographs.
The basic idea is nothing new to “life” (I often put Followship-ese in quotes). We don’t call it a photograph, but instead it’s called “feedback” or a “critique.” It’s very common in the work environment for evaluating performance as well as in relationships, friendships, and in families. Much of the time, photographs unsolicited and not welcome from the recipient’s standpoint, and not sincere from the standpoint of the one giving the photograph. Very, very often it’s akin to insulting someone, or trying to put them in their place, or expressing an annoyance about their “manifestations.” Very often people are just telling someone what they don’t like about them. Human nature; happens everywhere. It’s also true that photographs can be positive, as in “You look nice in blue,” or “You are an excellent public speaker,” to “You are a very hard worker.”
But the idea in the FOF was that others can see certain things about us that we can’t see in ourselves, so it’s a lot like giving someone an actual photograph so they can “see themselves” more clearly. So giving and receiving photographs was considered a tool for self-observation and observing in general. It helped people wake up from their illusions and perhaps recognize when they were off-track or just “off” in general, or when they were perhaps doing something that was harmful to themselves and to those around them, or when they were in denial about something that was very obvious to others but not to them.
The blog is a “photograph.”
… from dick moron YouTube videos, to WhaleRider posts, to impressively articulate posts by Bruce and Opus 111 and 2010 and Ames, to an occasional outburst of anger from someone like x-ray or long rants like this one.
It’s a photograph.
Gurdjieff supposedly said, “If the hat doesn’t fit, wear it anyway.”
But frankly I don’t think there’s any need to wear hats that don’t fit. There are plenty of hats to choose from here, and many of them fit wonderfully. It’s not about being right, or better, or “High and Mighty” as WT said. I do honestly believe a huge portion of this blog is sincere and honest and that — if people are open to it– they’ll see something about themselves and the organization they belong to with more clarity and honesty.
The question is: Can the Fellowship of Friends apply one of its most important and significant ideas to itself? Well, no, it never will. But individuals within it certainly can.
I’ve always thought the best “photographs” — positive or negative — are the ones where the recipient is hearing something they already know. They just need to hear it from a friend.
RE: “emma goldman”
I still say something about this poster smells of troll. But hey, maybe that’s just me. Anyway, whoever and whatever you may be thanks for perking up the conversation.
“Thanks guys – if my boyfriend and others remain in FoF after laughing at this site it will be those kind of contributions that did it.”
Really, who can believe this bullshit ? “She” can’t be serious.
So Erma, you’ve taken over the conversation here, you’re the new center of attentind, good for you… when someone questions your motives, you go all defensive and that has me wondering who’s the man behind the curtain and what’s the agenda ?
YOUR CONCERN FOR YOUR BOY FRIEND ? OH REALLY ?
“Either get with the times or get off this site because your hatred has no place here or anywhere else.”
You know what Erma la douche, if you were truly interested in gaining understanding here instead of feeding your vanity, you would go back through the previous pages here and do a little homework before you make these sorts of asinine “knee-jerk” remarks.
“From the start I have challenged in my own right a perceptible undercurrent of homophobia on here… and asked if there is a genuine grievance against Robert or just mindless prejudice about gays. Many people have shown there is a genuine grievance.”
It sounds like you may be on friendly terms with Burton (?) There’s an old saying in my country: “the friend of my enemy is my enemy,” and I can tell you Burton is no friend of mine — now does that make me a “homophobe” ? Not in the least. Com’on Erma, you’re really a gay dude, right? Not that there’s anything wrong with that, I’m just wondering about what’s really motivating this sudden appearance and take-over of the conversation, that is, beyond all of the attention that you are getting.
I couldn’t express it any better so I’ll reiterate what Bruce said in 98 just to make sure YOU got the point:
“It’s been said over and over and over that homosexuality is NOT the point, sex, per se, is NOT the point The abuse of power for sex is one of the points. I don’t give a fuck who RB fucks as long as he’s not using his station, power, money and bull shit to facilitate debauching what are, in many cases, heterosexual youths being manipulated by the crap and dogma that is the FOF.”
It seems ERMA has a lot to say:
“Typical cowardice of a bigot. Well good – now you’re outed and hopefully others will distance themselves from your comments and give this site the credibility it deserves. More voices needed! I did have further issues I wanted to discuss here – to ask about the so-called verification process used by FoF (though maybe its a Gurdijeff) which would be good to deconstruct because my very real boyfriend stands by it and I feel it is a dangerous tool in the wrong hands for securing belief without real proof. I also wanted to offer some advice – again from very real experience of using them to great effect- on getting the petition better written – as it stands it is too long and it needs to be explicit that it is not about targeting gay people. Maybe then I’ll sign it – but if you’re looking for the name Emma Goldman on there you won’t see it.”
YADA YADA YADA
The “lady” doth protest too much methinks…
Sounds like a LOAD to me…. but hey, that’s just me. Listen I don’t know what your true agenda is, and probably never will but I still can’t help wondering what you’re really up to… For example I wonder about your choice of language, over-use of the word “outed” for example and “my very real boyfriend” and all this self-righteous indignation and seeming concern for the “gay people” — admit, you’re really a gay dude right? Not that there’s anything wrong with that — just so that YOU are absolutely clear not to confuse Burton’s antics with gay rights issues… if gay rights is your agenda then you’re barking up the wrong tree and it’s you my friend who would be best served if you go find another place to play. Reading the back-pages here shouldn’t take you so long, it’s only 87 pages and you seem like a bright “girl” — imo if you are sincere in your claims you’ll do your homework.
105. Apostate – sorry not to read your posting, can’t be bothered, really moved by the one above 104. Spock which was beautiful and touched a nerve…. had echoes of this: ‘Photographers are always imposing standards on their subjects’ (susan sontag). Thank you for sharing that. Good note to go on. Take care lovely people x
High and Mighty Warning to those who are sensitive.
106. I’m glad my post touched a nerve. Here’s one more “photograph” for you, though… Keep in mind that you are just words on a page, and this is all we can see of you. We don’t know you. But you came asking for help and basically took up several long paragraphs to tell us why you don’t need help. And you found a way to include several paragraphs that defend Burton. No surprise: You got some responses.
Read Apostate’s post. If you do actually in fact really genuinely have a boyfriend in the FOF, it’s seriously time to be “bothered” enough to take a minute to read Apostate’s post, and Bruce’s, and others. If you ARE someone sincere, you’ll be moved by some of the first-hand accounts and commentary.
I strongly suggest to anyone who has a partner in this cult… Run, and keep running. If they follow you, give them a chance. But keep running, and run some more. This is not a benign organization, and no amount of scoffing or denial or chuckling can make that fact go away.
—
Bruce: “It’s been said over and over and over that homosexuality is NOT the point, sex, per se, is NOT the point The abuse of power for sex is one of the points. I don’t give a fuck who RB fucks as long as he’s not using his station, power, money and bull shit to facilitate debauching what are, in many cases, heterosexual youths being manipulated by the crap and dogma that is the FOF.”
Absolutely agree. Also, regarding the suggestion that people who criticize Burton must somehow be morally opposed to sex with multiple partners…
Calling attention to the scope of Burton’s activities — combined with the factors you mention above — helps underscore how his behavior is not just an isolated occurrence, nor is it simply an occasional error in judgment. Burton has demonstrated a pattern of abuse with a large number of people that unfortunately has lasted for four decades. No expert in human psychology needs to help us out on this question — It’s a serious illness, and it’s affecting more people than most of us want to think about.
—
Apostate: “I still say something about this poster smells of troll. But hey, maybe that’s just me… Listen I don’t know what your true agenda is, and probably never will but I still can’t help wondering what you’re really up to.”
I’m glad you commented on it. Definitely not just you. I also don’t know, but feel the same.
86. WhaleRider – January 22, 2010
Yes, WhaleRider, I think that homosexuality is a mental illness and a moral degradation, but I never said it was a crime. It would be stupid to think that way, but it’s not the point here. My issue with Burton has nothing to do with his orientation , and I would be just the same, or even more disturbed if Burton would be seducing yang girls instead of boys. So it’s not who he fucks that matters, but how he gets those who he fucks, and that is what I think is fraudulent and criminal.
And the more I read this Emma Goldman thing, the more I feel that she is full of shit.
And besides, I don’t give a fuck who’s religious beliefs I offend by saying what I think.
90. EmmaGoldman – January 22, 2010
Just read this post. Whoever you are, you are a full of shit.
96. 2010 – January 22, 2010
The Burton story.. unbelievable.. I wonder if there will come a day when I will no longer be surprised by his stupidity and lies.
Emma Goldman
“Either get with the times or get off this site because your hatred has no place here or anywhere else.”
And who the fuck are you to tell us what has or has no place here?
Emma Goldman,
“Typical cowardice of a bigot. Well good – now you’re outed and hopefully others will distance themselves from your comments and give this site the credibility it deserves. More voices needed! I did have further issues I wanted to discuss here – to ask about the so-called verification process used by FoF (though maybe its a Gurdijeff) which would be good to deconstruct because my very real boyfriend..’
Bullshit.
A typical tactic used by DC, to distract people from the real issues.
And this site has enough credibility as it is, and it has already helped about a 1000 people to leave the cult.
Just as I said, you full of shit.
#111 “……and it has already helped about a 1000 people to leave the cult.”
I wish this were true. Unfortunately there are still about 1600
under the spell of deception that remain in the FOF. I would guess that no more than 300-400 have left since the start of the blog. The Gf site which has over 1000 members is comprised of mostly people who left before the inception of the blog.
Just a little prayer this quiet evening that love does guide us all, that our journey that brought us together was always a good one. And that no matter how strange and disappointing the reality, may a spark of love still exist for us and that we’ll meet in some unknown land. O angels, if you do exist may you hear this prayer and guide us evermore through the darkest times, and through the joys, and may we never lose our vision of a better world and better life guided by our inner strength.
God bless those in Haiti and may you help us see the need for openness, reconciliation and powerful, powerful love in this world, and right here. Right here. Best wishes friends. Be strong. Have courage. Amen.
Hey DC,
In case you are still reading, I’m still waiting on your definition of spirituality. [Emma G. is a nice temporary ruse that has stirred up the pot a bit but if you show your head here again, I will call you out on this debate.] No, I’m not losing sleep over it, you might be if you understood the implications, but I am ready and waiting to engage you on a lively dialogue which can only happen if you define the terms that you use.
DC might be in Cairo with the rest of the crew. Burton has taken a group of his followers to Egypt for a brief visit.
Regarding ‘Photography’ as practiced in the Fellowship of Friends, as stated previously:
’88/76. apostate:
‘Tough love — an expression used when someone treats another person harshly or sternly with the intent to help them in the long run.’
‘We need very strong ears to hear ourselves judged frankly, and because there are few who can endure frank criticism without being stung by it, those who venture to criticize us perform a remarkable act of friendship, for to undertake to wound or offend a man for his own good is to have a healthy love for him.’
Michel de Montaigne
Not something that many people could live with, especially. . .
you know who.’
It is a major characteristic of Robert Earl Burton, and by extension The Fellowship of Friends (Pathway to Presence), to dish it out but not be able to eat their own words. In other words: inability to BE the words they speak (Do as I say; not as I do – is the motto.) or to ‘walk the talk.’ This has been repeated, and documented, behavior from over 4 decades. It is the true measure of BEING.
If they were fully transparent about, and forthrightly proud of, the ‘sex cult’ aspects of their culture, as practiced by the leader and others, then why not advertise it on their websites, write books about how it enhances their evolution, invite others of the ilk to come join their ‘movement’ to a new consciousness – rather than persuading those with other interests to be ‘converted.’ Rather than seducing unwilling sex partners into clandestine trysts, as is Robert Earl Burton’s habit to do (example: the rape of R_ch_rd L__r_l in the night while he slept), just advertise within the Fellowship of Friends that willing volunteers are sought and get people to come forward of their own volition – even set quotas to be met. That is, be open and honest about what goes on and invite people to witness just how useful it is to the purpose of the church and the religion that IS The Fellowship of Friends? Make it a sacrament and then it could be protected by religious freedom!
‘Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works,
and glorify your Father which is in heaven.’
Matthew 5:14-16 KJV
‘And he [Jesus] said unto them,
Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?
For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.’
Mark 4:21-22
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
P.S.: 2010 (or, johnny-come-lately (You, like EmmaGoldman’s boy friend, have gone to Egypt for a trip on denial)): It, as FoF is wont to say, not about the numbers – but, awakening certainly is mathematical. When blog began, membership was 2200-2300. And, IF it is now at about 1600, that means 600-700 gone. Then there are those many that remain ‘on the roster’ who, for most practical purposes, are not there. Besides that, there are the number that may have joined during that period, if any, that were basically replacements for others that left. So. I would think it fair to say 1000 left in almost 4 years. Based on a supposed 20% retention rate (and it’s probably more like 10%), the 40 year average yearly departure rate would be around 200 a year. So, 1000 would only be a bit above the average. Here is some of what has been posted on this subject before:
‘on 12 Oct 2007 at 7:45 pm Page22/#510 Wouldn’t you like to know:
There are three kinds of lies:
lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain
Concerning whether the Fellowship of Friends works:
Fact is that there is less than a 20% retention rate in FoF. (That was the old statistic. It is probably more like 10% now.) That means that 8 to 9 out of 10 people who join FoF leave.
Althoughbeit, not all are fully dissatisfied, but something caused them to leave.
That means that 1, possibly 2, out of 10 people that join will still be members. Many of those stay, not because it works, but because of other reasons – like they have no other viable choices – caught in a catch 44 situation. So, roughly speaking, there are 1500 current members and there are 15,000 former members. Then there are all those people, like the Sheik, that rejected FoF before joining. You might even say that for one person to join the Fellowship of Friends and stay for life is a one in a million, possibly near one in a billion, prospect.
Yes, it does work for someone (especially Robert Earl Burton).
Do you want to gamble on a one in a million chance, especially when you put your life on the line? And, given the information on this blog, anecdotal that it may be, definitely shows real examples, even nightmares, of how many ways peoples’ lives
HAVE NOT BENEFITED IN THE LONG RUN.
There are three kinds of lies:
lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain’
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
‘on April 28, 2008 at 3:51 am Page33/#171 Associated Press:
Concerning: More history needed? and the numbers in the Fellowship of Friends.
Several pages back, there were posted graphic images of the statistics for the FoF covering several decades. One of the things it showed was that for more than a decade now the numbers leaving FoF averaged over 30 per month, consistently. This trend depended, to some degree, on the other statistics of there being an average of 30 or more joining per month; that lasted roughly from 1992 to 2002. Thus the number in FoF over that period was roughly flat. Since 2002, however, the numbers joining have dropped off rather radically with a trend toward less than 20 joining per month in 2005. This curve was moving toward zero rapidly. This means that the numbers in FoF is declining in an accelerating fashion, as a function of the flat to increasing departures and the declining joiners. The departures of 30 per month, if it continues at that pace, means a loss of 300+ per year. It will take about six years, then, until there is only Robert Burton left. Practically speaking, that will not likely happen because at a certain point there will only be the hardcore members who will not leave under any circumstance(s) and the 30 departures per month will level off somewhere above zero or at zero. This inner circle will sustain the illusion that everything is just fine. So, before there is a total collapse to a super nova or black hole, there will be a stage at which a dwarf star* state exists – notwithstanding that there would be a black hole type energy condition at the very center of it sucking in any matter that comes anywhere near to it. Beware the event horizon and don’t get sucked in your self.
*wikipedia.org defines:
‘A white dwarf [star], also called a degenerate dwarf, is a small star composed mostly of electron-degenerate matter. As white dwarfs have mass comparable to the Sun’s and their volume is comparable to the Earth’s, they are very dense. Their faint luminosity comes from the emission of stored heat. . . White dwarfs are thought to be the final evolutionary state of all stars whose mass is not too high – over 97% of the stars in our Galaxy.’
That part about being ‘very dense’ means that nothing from outside of it will penetrate in a manner to have even the slightest affect on the progression. Since this condition appears to have already happened, it proves the theory likely to be in progress now.’
WonderingWho’sWatching
Thanks for the analysis, it lead me to wonder if Burton has a team doing these sorts of calculations in order to determine the level of recruitment required to sustain operations — or is it all a bit more random and ‘laissez faire’ with him (?)
I like the metaphor:
“This inner circle will sustain the illusion that everything is just fine. So, before there is a total collapse to a super nova or black hole, there will be a stage at which a dwarf star* state exists – notwithstanding that there would be a black hole type energy condition at the very center of it sucking in any matter that comes anywhere near to it. Beware the event horizon and don’t get sucked in your self.”
The context of the metaphor implies projection of a future fate and the ultimate collapse of the organization, which seems to fit the situation — but on the other hand the “black hole type energy at the very center sucking in what comes near” was always there, from the very inception, and so this ‘black hole type energy’ applies not only to the future but to past and present as well.
Avarice, greed and cupidity informed the unbalanced appetites of Burton, these were the seeds of the FOF’s destruction. The path to that demise is strewn with the effects of disruption and damage wrought upon many who were unfortunate enough to enter Burton’s sphere of influence. It seems to me remarkable that the organization has gone on for as long as it has; when I joined back in ’78 (god, could it be that long ago?!) from what I could gather during my FOF ‘tenure’ the “student’ count hovered somewhere between 1500-2000… the picture I get of the situation is that the organization seems to have functioned at a sort of static level for decades now, without a major fluctuation in overall numbers, not enough leave for the thing to collapse and not enough join to get the number much over 2000… the organization seems to maintain just enough of a flock to lavish Burton in bling, traveling expenses and of course cock.
?
112. 2010 – January 23, 2010
When this Blog started, the cult has 2200 members. Now, even if 1600 is correct, it is 600 less. But knowing the cult and its fraud, it would be naive to trust their official numbers.
We know that when people leaving the cult, their names remains on the members list for a long time, plus we also know that many people do not pay their membership now days, but are considered to be a members. We also know that many people who going to Burton’s events are not paying for the events, and the reason for that is to maintain the illusion that all is well, full and active.
Same with the general numbers, they prefer to keep people for free in the cult, rather let them leave. The obvious tendency of decline is much worse for their business than a loss of few thousand dollars.
108 X-Ray
homosexuality is mental illness/moral degradation…
X-Ray, how did you form such opinion?
x-ray:
“And besides, I don’t give a fuck whose religious beliefs I offend by saying what I think.”
The question remains: have you thought about what you are saying?
I’d be more concerned about whose zealous religious beliefs you are supporting by erroneously thinking homosexuality is a mental illness.
From Wikipedia:
“Homophobia is a term for a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards homosexuality and people identified or perceived as being homosexual.
Definitions of the term refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear. Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of a non-heterosexual orientation.
In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.”
The use was also adopted by Psychologist and gay activist George Weinberg in his 1972 book “Society and the Healthy Homosexual”, published one year before the American Psychiatric Association voted to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders.”
x-ray, I can tell you are not from America, and here you discredit yourself to express the opinion that homosexuality is a mental illness.
There are certainly a plethora of right-wing christian conservative bigots who will get in bed with you about it being immoral. Do you count yourself among their ranks?
118. veramente – January 23, 2010
Veramente, that’s NOT the point here.
119. WhaleRider – January 23, 2010
Whalerider, you disappointing a little with your current views.
Why do you think it has to do any thing with religion?
I don’t believe in any religion and I don’t belong to any political party.
My take on it is much more simpler. It goes against the natural, that’s it.
But fuck, that’s not the point here!
ual orientation and the abuse of power are completely separate issues.
And Whalerider,
if you think you know better because you are American, and homosexuality is right because it’s common, well accepted or even popular in states, you are mistaken.
In my opinion the current status of US cannot serve as moral model whatsoever.
I think homosexuality it’s a decease which will eventually destroy the family values, which serves as a foundation to any healthy society, regardless of nationality or region.
Bur regardless, if I’m right or wrong in my vews, it changes nothing in my point regarding Burton’s power abuse.
113 is new
X-ray
Live and Let Live.
And if you don’t fancy homosexuality for yourself, why waste energy on the subject? It sounds so republican……….
Robert Burton is an embarrassment to the gay community and a criminal as well.
124. X-ray
For me, with this post, you’ve lost virtually all credibility. It sounds like American or Israeli fundamentalist religious claptrap. But it’s all yours, have fun.
And if it’s not the point, why whip it out, so-to-speak?
X-ray,
the fact that “Erma goldsman” felt justified in lumping you and I into the same category just shows how far off base “she” is.
Given that some of the ideas and notions about what constitutes mental health and mental illness can be subjective, relative and culturally conditioned, imho based on your comments on the subject of homosexuality as mental illness, I know there are a great many people of the homosexual orientation who have a far higher level of mental health than do you.
Just as Jomo says: “sexual orientation and the abuse of power are completely separate issues,” so too are sexual orientation and mental health separate issues.
In the case of Burton there is a confluence and interplay of sexual orientation, abuse of power and mental illness. Regarding the issue of his mental illness vis a vis his sexual orientation, in psychiatry there is a condition called “satyriasis” (or hypersexuality) in which the symptoms are a compulsion to have sexual intercourse with as many people as possible and an inability to have lasting relationships. It’s an over-activated and controling desire to engage in human sexual behavior at a level high enough to be considered problematic and clinically significant. Burton has not sought clinical support for his condition but this doesn’t imply the problem does not exist. Several neurological conditions, various types and many neuro-degenerative diseases can cause this aberrant sexual behavior.
In a previous post “Another Name” referred to Burton as a pedophile, which may not be technically accurate because he manages to bed boys of “legal age” — but as far as the psychology of the sexual encounter involving Burton’s disproportionate power over his prey, I would say that on a “soul level” the term pedophile is a pretty apt description for Burton.
Apostate,
Just the fact that RB can’t sustain an ongoing relationship with a lover reveals his fickle and shallow heart.
His penchant for ‘virgins’, heterosexual men, young and unsuspecting reveals his predatory motives. like a Pedophile.
He repulses, and may even enjoy creating anger and frustration with a touch of Sadomasochism
‘And if it’s not the point, why whip it out, so-to-speak?’
Bruce,
I said what I thought, and had no intention to keep on going on that subject. Veramente and Whalerider challenged me on that and I have responded.
In the last three years of talking here, I think I mentioned that only once and only now, and have no interest to keep defending my views.
I’m here for a different reason.
And as I said, if instead of boys, Burton would be seducing girls and women in his bedroom telling them that this is the Gods will, it would disturb me just the same, or maybe even more.
131 X-ray
Actually I did not challenge you, I was trying to understand how did you form your opinion on homosexuality. You did not offend me but I am surprised.
I have wonderful friends who are gay and they have a lot of integrity.
I understand you are here for different purposes but what you say about homosexuality is rather unpopular to put it mildly.
However this will not change you or make you reconsider your statements. Perhaps you come from an homophobic culture or something else.
x-ray:
Although you claim not to adhere to any religion, most, if not all moral objection to homosexuality tends to be religious-based.
I am curious why you feel homosexuality is unnatural, since many animals including birds, mammals, insects and fish have been observed practicing homosexual behavior, particularly the chimpanzee-like, peace-loving, and promiscuous bonobo, which shares more than 98 percent of our genetic profile…
Here’s a list of just the mammals:
African Buffalo
African Elephant
Agile Wallaby
Amazon River Dolphin (Boto)
American Bison
Antelope
Asian Elehant
Asiatic Lion
Asiatic Mouflon
Atlantic Spotted Dolphin
Australian Sea Lion
Barasingha
Barbary Sheep
Beluga
Bharal
Bighorn Sheep
Black Bear
Blackbuck
Black-footed Rock Wallaby
Black-tailed Deer
Bonnet Macaque
Bonobo
Bottlenose Dolphin
Bowhead Whale
Brazilian Guinea Pig
Bridled Dolphin
Brown Bear
Brown Capuchin
Brown Long-eared Bat
Brown Rat
Buffalo
Caribou
Cat (domestic)
Cattle (domestic)
Cheetah
Collared Peccary
Commerson’s Dolphin
Common Brushtail Possum
Common Chimpanzee
Common Dolphin
Common Marmoset
Common Pipistrelle
Common Raccoon
Common Tree Shrew
Cotton-top Tamarin
Crab-eating Macaque
Crested Black Macaque
Cui
Dall’s Sheep
Daubenton’s Bat
Dog (domestic)
Doria’s Tree Kangaroo
Dugong
Dwarf Cavy
Dwarf Mongoose
Eastern Cottontail Rabbit
Eastern Grey Kangaroo
Elk
Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo)
European Bison
Fallow Deer
False Killer Whale
Fat-tailed Dunnart
Fin Whale
Fox
Gazelle
Gelada Baboon
Giraffe
Goat (Domestic)
Golden Monkey
Gorilla
Grant’s Gazelle
Grey-headed Flying Fox
Grey Seal
Grey squirrel
Grey Whale
Grey Wolf
Grizzly Bear
Guinea Pig (Domestic)
Hamadryas Baboon
Hamster (Domestic)
Hanuman Langur
Harbor Porpoise
Harbor Seal
Himalayan Tahr
Hoary Marmot
Horse (domestic)
8)Humans
Indian Fruit Bat
Indian Muntjac
Indian Rhinoceros
Japanese Macaque
Javelina
Kangaroo Rat
Killer Whale
Koala
Kob
Larga Seal
Least Chipmunk
Lechwe
Lesser Bushbaby
Lion
Lion-tailed Macaque
Lion Tamarin
Little Brown Bat
Livingstone’s Fruit Bat
Long-eared Hedgehog
Long-footed Tree Shrew
Macaque
Markhor
Marten
Matschie’s Tree Kangaroo
Moco
Mohol Galago
Moor Macaque
Moose
Mountain Goat
Mountain Tree Shrew
Mountain Zebra
Mouse (domestic)
Moustached Tamarin
Mule Deer
Musk-ox
Natterer’s Bat
New Zealand Sea Lion
Nilgiri Langur
Noctule
North American Porcupine
Northern Elephant Seal
Northern Fur Seal
Northern Quoll
Olympic Marmot
Orangutan
Pacific Striped Dolphin
Patas Monkey
Pere David’s Deer
Pig (Domestic)
Pig-tailed Macaque
Plains Zebra
Polar Bear
Pretty-faced Wallaby
Proboscis Monkey
Pronghorn
Przewalski’s Horse
Puku
Quokka
Rabbit
Raccoon Dog
Red Deer
Red Fox
Red Kangaroo
Red-necked Wallaby
Red Squirrel
Reeves’s Muntjac
Reindeer
Rhesus Macaque
Right Whale
Rock Cavy
Rodrigues Fruit Bat
Roe Deer
Rufous Bettong
Rufous-naped Tamarin
Rufous Rat Kangaroo
Saddle-back Tamarin
Savanna Baboon
Sea Otter
Serotine Bat
Sheep (Domestic)
Siamang
Sika Deer
Slender Tree Shrew
Sooty Mangabey
Sperm Whale (go figure)
Spinifex Hopping Mouse
Spinner Dolphin
Spotted Hyena
Spotted Seal
Squirrel Monkey
Striped Dolphin
Stuart’s Marsupial Mouse
Stumptail Macaque
Swamp Deer
Swamp Wallaby
Takhi
Talapoin
Tammar Wallaby
Tasmanian Devil
Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo
Thinhorn Sheep
Thomson’s Gazelle
Tiger
Tonkean Macaque
Tucuxi
Urial
Vampire Bat
Verreaux’s Sifaka
Vervet
Vicuna
Walrus
Wapiti
Warthog
Waterbuck
Water Buffalo
Weeper Capuchin
Western Grey Kangaroo
West Indian Manatee
Whiptail Wallaby
White-faced Capuchin
White-fronted Capuchin
White-handed Gibbon
White-lipped Peccary
White-tailed Deer
Wild Cavy
Wild Goat
Wisent
Yellow-footed Rock Wallaby
Yellow-toothed Cavy
(From Wikipedia)
Is seems that homosexuality is common in many other places besides just America.
Any chance you’d be willing to talk about how you were able to be in the FOF and feel the way you do about homosexuality…or is this a recent opinion you’ve formed after leaving?
133. veramente – January 23, 2010
I say what I think, not what is popular, and what I think about homosexuality, is less important that what we all think about the abuse of power regarding Burton, which should be kept in focus.
silentpurr
“Just the fact that RB can’t sustain an ongoing relationship with a lover reveals his fickle and shallow heart.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think you give Burton more credit than he deserves. It’s not a simple case of being fickle, let’s not soft-pedal the situation…
and to assume that he actually has a heart – be it ‘shallow’ or otherwise – would imply (to me) that he would demonstrate the vestiges of a functioning conscience – I see no evidence of that but plenty of evidence to the contrary.
“Sociopaths have no heart, no conscience and no remorse. They think nothing of lying, cheating and stealing. In extreme cases, sociopaths can be serial rapists and serial killers. Experts estimate that 1% to 4% of the population are sociopaths, depending upon whom you ask. That means there may be 3 to 12 million sociopaths in the United States, and 67 to 269 million sociopaths worldwide. What’s worse, as adults, sociopathic men and women cannot be rehabilitated. Once a sociopath, always a sociopath.
Think you can spot a sociopath? Think again. Sociopaths are masters of manipulation and they often blend easily into society. They’re entertaining and fun at parties. They appear to be intelligent, charming, well-adjusted and likable. The key word is ‘appear.’ Because for sociopaths it’s all an illusion, designed to convince you to give them what they want.”
135. apostate
Powerful and…….frightening.
The thought just occurred to me that we can have a definition, but if we personally have some degree of those human characteristics in ourselves, probably cannot truly, fully imagine what it would be like to have NO heart, NO conscience, No remorse.
I guess that is obviously a part of why we evidently often cannot recognize them.
– curiosity question –
Is it thought that sociopaths can recognize each other? And if so, I wonder what that recognition would be from across a room.
Just ‘competition’ for the available prey?
Dear Apostate
How do people become sociopaths? I understood it has to do with a trouble childhood like Hitler. (Alice Miller “For your own good”). Hitler TMU was a sociopath.
Also I understood that many criminals have a history of early abuse and neglect. As many prostitutes have a history of sexual abuse?
Any more info on this subject?
James,
I don’t know, but I would guess that anyone standing in the way of what the sociopath wants, whether that be another sociopath or otherwise, he or she would be thought of and treated as an inanimate obstacle rather than a human being.
“This is from ‘Profile of a Sociopath’ – a list of sociopathic indicators.
• Glibness/Superficial Charm
• Manipulative and Conning
• Grandiose Sense of Self
• Pathological Lying
• Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
• Shallow Emotions
• Incapacity for Love
• Need for Stimulation
• Callousness/Lack of Empathy
• Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
• Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
• Irresponsibility/Unreliability
• Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
• Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
• Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
• Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
• Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
• Authoritarian
• Secretive
• Paranoid
• Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
• Conventional appearance
• Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
• Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim’s life
• Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim’s affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
• Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
• Incapable of real human attachment to another
• Unable to feel remorse or guilt
• Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievements)
• May state readily that their goal is to rule the world
Obviously, in order to be a sociopath a person doesn’t have to exhibit anything like all the above. Usually, the lack of a conscience, the manipulation of others, dishonesty and the inability to love and/or have lasting and profound personal relations and cruelty are key symptoms and often much more revealing than having been in trouble with the courts.”
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_know_if_someone_is_a_sociopath
This is part of an interview with Marshall Rosenberg, the founder of NVC would be interesting to see what he has to say on sociopaths.
Interesting to me is the aspect of wanting to get empathy for the perpetrator;s own unresolved issues. My understanding and experience is, many people who are perpetrator have themselves be abused…
DK: How does restorative justice work?
MBR: I have seen it work, for example, with women who have been raped and the men who raped them. The first step is for the woman to express whatever it is that she wants her attacker to understand. Now, this woman has suffered almost every day for years since the attack, so what comes out is pretty brutal: “You monster! I’d like to kill you!” and so forth.
What I do then is help the prisoner to connect with the pain that is alive in this woman as a result of his actions. Usually what he wants to do is to apologize. But I tell him apology is too cheap, too easy. I want him to repeat back what he hears her saying. How has her life been affected? When he can’t repeat it, I play his role. I tell her I hear the pain behind all of the screams and shouting. I get him to see that the rage is on the surface, but beneath that lies the despair about whether her life will ever be the same again. And then I get the man to repeat what I’ve said. It may take three, or four, or five tries, but finally he hears the other person. Already at this point you can see the healing starting to take place — when the victim gets empathy.
Then I ask the man to tell me what’s going on inside of him. How does he feel? Usually, again, he wants to apologize. He wants to say, “I’m a rat. I’m dirt.” And again I get him to dig deeper. And it’s very scary for these men. They’re not used to dealing with feelings, let alone experiencing the horror of what it feels like to have caused another human being such pain.
When we’ve gotten past these first two steps, very often the victim screams, “How could you?” She’s hungry to understand what would cause another person to do such a thing. Unfortunately, most of the victims I’ve worked with have been encouraged from the very beginning by well-meaning people to forgive their attackers. These people explain that the rapist must have been suffering and probably had a bad childhood. And the victim does try to forgive, but this doesn’t help much. Forgiveness reached without first taking these other steps is just superficial. It suppresses the pain.
Once the woman has received some empathy, however, she is hungry to understand what was going on in this man when he committed this act. I help the perpetrator go back to the moment of the act and identify what he was feeling, what needs were contributing to his actions.
The last step is to ask whether there is something more the victim would like the perpetrator to do, to bring things back to a state of peace. For example, she may want medical bills to be paid, or she may want some emotional restitution. But once there’s empathy on both sides, it’s amazing how quickly they start to care about one another’s well being.
DK: What kind of “needs” would cause a person to rape another human being?
MBR: It has nothing to do with sex, of course. It has to do with the tenderness that people don’t know how to get and often confuse with sex. In almost every case, the rapists themselves have been victims of some sort of sexual aggression or physical abuse, and they want someone else to understand how horrible it feels to be in this passive, weak role. They need empathy, and they’ve employed a distorted means of getting it: by inflicting similar pain on someone else. But the need is universal. All human beings have the same needs. Most of us meet them in ways that are not destructive to other people and ourselves.
” – curiosity question – Is it thought that sociopaths can recognize each other? And if so, I wonder what that recognition would be from across a room. Just ‘competition’ for the available prey?”
James,
One thought: Because sociopaths are highly skilled at lying, they’re probably very quick to recognize when someone else is using the same skill.
I think most people underestimate just how prevalent the Art of Lying is in the FOF. And one thing to keep in mind – Lying is not only what people say, but it’s also largely what they don’t say, or what they leave out – what’s often called lying by omission.
It’s the latter that I think is the bigger problem in the FOF. After all, there’s little need to lie directly if no one is asking difficult questions. The main thing is to not offer any more information than you absolutely need to for your own benefit, even if leaving that information out will lead to serious consequences for someone else. By not divulging certain important details, it prevents people from understanding the truth and taking action that would run counter to your agenda.
Part of lying is the control and management of information. You don’t want too many people learning too much too often. So if you essentially outlaw questions about certain topics, outlaw discussions about certain topics, and expel those who break those laws, you keep the information under control.
In the Fellowship of Friends, there are numerous examples of lying by omission about topics that are essential for the health and well-being of hundreds of individuals:
– There is little transparency about how money is being used. When a person joins, they are told they need to pay money, but they are not told the full amount that they’ll need to pay, nor are they told exactly what the money will be used for. If people knew what the money was being used for before Day 1, I have no doubt that thousands would not have joined.
– As someone mentioned above, young men are not told that they’ll be recruited for sexual interactions with the cult leader. If there is anything noble or even benign about this, why not divulge? This important fact is always left out when a prospect is considering entry into the cult. You may say “for obvious reasons.” Well, yes. But it’s another example of lying by omission that has serious consequences for people. There is no doubt that thousands of people would never have joined the Fellowship of Friends if they were aware of this fact before Day 1.
– Another lie by omission is the fact that the Fellowship of Friends has a guru who predicted cataclysmic events that have never occurred. “Prospective students” are obviously not given this information when they show up for meetings. And without a doubt, it would be a rare occurrence for someone to join if they were given this information. If you disagree, try to picture the conversation.
——
There are many more examples of lying by omission in the FOF.
Regarding the number of followers who remain in the FOF, I’m going to have to agree with post No. 1 above – “What you should know about Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.”…
“In the last four years, several hundred followers have left the Fellowship of Friends, and many followers continue to leave. It’s believed that slightly over 1,000 members remain worldwide, but reliable statistics are not publicly available.”
I realize there have been some ongoing discussions about these numbers, and there’s someone who enjoys stepping in occasionally to say the number is at about 1,500. Why on earth, given all of the lies above, would anyone believe ANY number that is presented to us? Whatever the number given, subtract a significant amount. This is another example of information management, and information control, which is a form of lying by omission.
The idea is to not provide the entire story, because the true and complete story is not a good one, and it could have negative effects on the agenda. The last thing that Burton wants is for people to start thinking, “Wow, a lot of people are leaving. More than usual. Why is that?”
Well, the that’s easy… It’s because “Why is that?” is a question. And we can’t have questions being asked, and particularly we can’t have truthful answers.
So James, if you want to recognize a sociopath,… Just look for someone who is very good at lying, and especially for someone who has not a concern in the world about how those lies affect the lives of the people around him.
Another Name,
You probably know more about it than I – what does Alice Miller have to say about the subject ?
It would be interesting to know what went on in Burton’s early childhood that he should turn into what he has become. The very little I’ve heard is on the level of rumor and inuendo, second and third-hand accounts of how he related to his mother on her death bed — to me it sounded like a disturbed relationship with his childhood ‘primary caregiver’ — is this an indication of something that went wrong during Burton’s childhood? I don’t know…
Apostate, Another Name, James,
The questions about what happened with Burton in childhood and before the FOF are extremely relevant and would cast a lot of light on Burton and the FOF in general.
Note that a sincere discussion about this topic is off-limits in the FOF. Which is odd.
This is “the most important person” in the Fellowship of Friends, and within the Fellowship of Friends we’ve heard him talk and talk and talk about all sorts of topics. But he talks very little about himself and his time before the FOF. Maybe there’s a lot “we” wouldn’t want to hear.
Dear Apostate, Spock, James,
I heard the following. His teaching job was determinated in March. a rumor went around, “he was hugging the children too much”.
He was dressed by his mother in girls clothes and sexual abused by both his mother and sister.
If you read Alice Miller extensive research on the upbringing of Hitler and him being physically and emotional abused and how he subconscious tried to take revenge on his father and maybe his grandfather ( a Jew, who made his grandmother, at that time a young servant pregnant), and his grandiosity about being a super- race…It is useful to read it yourself. Too much to summarize her in a few lines.
Also read Bonita’s account, somewhere here on the blog regarding meeting Burton and his cold approach to sex and money.
Another Name – do you have an email address [or similar] I can contact you privately? Thanks.
EmmaGoldman
If the member you are referring to is part of RB sexual milieu, then whether they are in Egypt of in OH does not make any difference; he would have to fulfill his “duties”.
If he is not one of RB boys than the trip to Egypt is a very nice experience. It is a well organized gathering in a very pleasant and friendly atmosphere.
I have not been to Egypt with RB because while being a member it was far beyond my financial capacity to go to any trip outside the US.
Still, I had many good friends who went there and had a very rewarding and positive experience.
I am not saying this to praise the FOF in any way!!!, I am just pointing out the facts as they are.
140. Spock, and others, on lying:
Lying is the first of the four obstacles to awakening. And, in accord with what Spock, 89/140, describes: This is the chief reason why the Fellowship of Friends is not a real school. Lies, lies, and more lies.
Here, as a reminder, is Ouspensky from The Pyschology:
‘What is lying?
As it is understood in ordinary language, lying means distorting or in some cases, hiding the truth, or what people believe to be the truth. This lying plays a very important part in life, but there are much worse forms of lying, when people do not know that they lie. I said in the last lecture that we cannot know the truth in our present state, and can only know the truth in the state of objective consciousness. How then can we lie? There seems to be a contradiction here, but in reality there is none. We cannot know the truth but we can pretend that we know. And this is lying. Lying fills all our life. People pretend that they know all sorts of things: about God, about the future life, about the universe, about the origin of man, about evolution, about everything; but in reality they do not know anything, even about themselves. And every time they speak about something they do not know as though they knew it, they lie. Consequently the study of lying becomes of the first importance in psychology.
And it may lead even to the third definition of psychology which is: the study of lying.
Psychology is particularly concerned with the lies a man says and thinks about himself. These lies make the study of man very difficult. Man, as he is, is not a genuine article. He is an imitation of something, and a very bad imitation. . .
Now we must see what are those harmful features that man finds in himself.
Speaking in general they are all mechanical manifestations. The first as has already been said, is lying. Lying is unavoidable in mechanical life. No one can escape it and the more one thinks that one is free from lying, the more one is in it. Life, as it is could not exist without lying. But from the psychological side, lying has a different meaning. It means speaking about things one does not know, and even cannot know, as though one knows and can know.
You must understand that I do not speak from any moral point of view. We have not yet come to questions of what is good, and what is bad, by itself. I speak only from a practical point of view, of what is useful and what is harmful to self-study and self-development.
Starting in this way, man very soon learns to discover signs by which he can know harmful manifestations in himself. He discovers that the more he can control a manifestation, the less harmful it can be, and that the less he can control it, that is, the more mechanical it is, the more harmful it can become.
When man understands this he becomes afraid of lying, again not on moral grounds, but on the grounds that he cannot control his lying, and that lying controls him, that is, his other functions. . .
The difficulties he has in observing these four manifestations— lying, imagination, the expression of negative emotions and unnecessary talking—will show man his utter mechanicalness. . .
In modem thought people ignore the idea of being and different levels of being. On the contrary, they believe that the more discrepancies and contradictions there are in a man’s being, the more interesting and brilliant he can be. It is generally, although tacitly, and not always even tacitly, admitted that a man can be given to lying, he can be selfish, unreliable, unreasonable, perverted, and yet be a great scientist or a great philosopher or a great artist. Of course this is quite impossible. This incompatibility of different features of one’s being, which is generally regarded as originality, actually means weakness. One cannot be a great thinker or a great artist with a perverted or an inconsistent mind, just as one cannot be a prizefighter or a circus athlete with consumption. The widespread acceptance of the idea that inconsistency and amorality means originality is responsible for the many scientific, artistic and religious fakes of our present time and probably of all times.’
146. Wouldnt You Like To Know.
Yes, very relevant, too. The type of lying that Ouspensky described was “lying to oneself” — pretense, pretentiousness, delusions, providing opinions about topics that we can’t possibly know anything about but pretending that we know all about them (the afterlife, “men” No. 7, whether someone is conscious, what their “chief feature” is, when California is going to fall, how we’re going to become an “ark”, the Ray of Creation, Worlds 48 and 96, etc.). And then another example of this type of lying is pretending that we agree with the above opinions, and then absorbing the same opinions for ourselves and pretending that we also know them.
And taking the insanity a huge leap forward, we actually pretend that we have “verified” or confirmed or proven these ideas (unbelievable, isn’t it?!) and walk around telling everyone that we have “verified.” And by nodding in agreement, or by not questioning these ideas, we give our tacit approval, and therefore reinforce more of the same, and more of the same.
This type of lying is different than what I describe above. But you’re right, lying as O. described it is also a huge pasttime in the FOF.
Another thing… Lying, Ouspensky wrote, was one of the five major obstacles to awakening. But — get this — it’s rarely, if ever, discussed in the FOF. And if it is discussed, it’s usually a fairly short discussion and not given the sincere treatment that it deserves. And the topic of lying is ESPECIALLY not discussed with the finger pointing squarely at ourselves and “the school” and “the teacher.”
Hell, “the Teacher” doesn’t lie. Don’t even go there.
Lying for sociopaths and malignant narcissists is different than the lying that O. described, because they do actually KNOW that they’re lying. Lacking any conscience, there are no internal checks and balances that say, “You know, maybe I should divulge some details to these people.” No. Burton and his enableers have absolutely no qualms about leaving out important details, omitting important facts — no matter what the consequences for anyone around them.
Someone 145
‘Still, I had many good friends who went there and had a very rewarding and positive experience.’
You mean they are still paying that trip’s Credit Card, or did they just had their house foreclosed on?
Was it taking a fair risk, greed or lunatic?
I also wanted to be with the old Pharaohs but did not want to be chained to another credit card company.
JB
148. Spock:
‘Another thing… Lying, Ouspensky wrote, was one of the five major obstacles to awakening. But — get this — it’s rarely, if ever, discussed in the FOF.’
Yes, ironic isn’t it?
As I said at 89/146:
‘Lying is the first of the four obstacles to awakening.’
This applies to most sorts of lying because one kind supports the others, and vice versa.
and, quoting O.:
‘The difficulties he [man] has in observing these four manifestations – lying, imagination, the expression of negative emotions and unnecessary talking – will show man his utter mechanicalness. . .’
This also applies to organizations.
Crouching tiger.
Feel free to send an email to the moderator. If he wants to forward it, OK with me.
96. 2010:
‘The reason the blog has the potential to be so effective is because it is a forum to question and in many cases expose the fraud and corruption that exists inside the Fellowship CULT. If you want to get a taste of the bullshit, read the letter from David
Lubbers (springfield) to the fellowship board. You can google “David Springfield letter” and you might find it. The fellowship has gone through great lengths to get it removed from every possible outlet that might reproduce it.’
Wikileaks, the site that hosted the ‘Lawyer Letter,’ has reluctantly suspended all other operations except for fund raising to continue their work.
The david-springfield-letter-2009.doc is currently unavailable. Here is summary:
‘Censored Fellowship of Friends cult letter from former legal council David Springfield, 2009
From Wikileaks
Released June 12, 2009
Summary
The Fellowship of Friends is a “intellectual” fourth-way cult founded in the 1970s by its current leader Robert Earl Burton[1][2][3]. It claims chapters in many countries, including 10 chapters in the United States[4].
This file contains a copy of a letter sent to the members of the Board of Directors of the Fellowship of Friends apparently by their former legal counsel. The letter outlines many illegal activities of the Fellowship of Friends and omissions of oversight by said Board of Directors, and possible consequences if these matters come to the attention of the authorities.
The document was initially released on the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, but was wholly censored by the publisher WordPress.com after it received a claim of copyright infringement under the US DMCA.
A version of it was then made available on the Internet Archive (archive.org), but it too has been removed.
The letter refers to fraud obtaining religious visas, fraudulent accounting, inurements to the chief minister (Robert Earl Burton), tax evasion, and so on. It may be of interest to agencies within the US government and the governments of other countries.
Interested parties can call Ames Gilbert at (530) 272-4775 (within U.S.A.).’
For a limited time only, david-springfield-letter-2009.doc may be available here:
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:haE6K2jS2A8J:wikileaks.de/leak/david-springfield-letter-2009.doc
It is a cached page and, for that reason, it has a limited life span.
You can also Google search: david-springfield-letter-2009.doc
#134 is new
#152- My email address is: nogurus@yahoo.com
153 AP
Thank you for re-posting the resource from where to find David S. letter to the Fellowship of Friends Board of Directors.
The content is truly an unintended admission of crime now that we can all read it. This letter I hope will open the eyes of some current members who are in denial.
Would be nice if DAILY CARDIAC would come forward with some points of view about the letter.
I would be all ears for once.
Great pictures of Mr. Gurdjieff and family:
http://digitalseance.wordpress.com/galerie-dimage/la-galerie-de-gurdjieff/
Robert Burton and the Fellowship distorted the forth way idea of Intentional Insincerity by using it as a license to deceive.
150. jonb
It’s about time that some people here start acting like adults and stop childish reactions.
RB should have been sued for his actions and that’s a shame that those who could, haven’t done so. But this blog loses credibility when a non-ex-member (EmmaGoldman) gets false and intimidating information about what is going on during the Egypt gathering.
Besides RB boys “role”, these gatherings are a pleasant experience.
Any trip abroad costs money. It’s true that some of the events’ prices are outrages (some are reasonable), but that was not what EmmaGoldman wanted to know., She was worried about possible unpleasent experiences there. She deserves an honest, straightforward answer.
someone:
“Oh Oysters, come walk with us
The Walrus did beseech,
A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach…”
For reasonably priced tours to Egypt not lead by a delusional megalomaniac control freak and sexual predator of straight young men (like Emma’s BF) with a Christ complex, I recommend REI Adventure Tours.
You’ll be able to have your own magical mystery tour free of regressive, childish magical thinking and ideas of reference.
burton is unconsciously attracted to ancient Egypt because they worshipped mortal men as gods and condoned slavery. That’s why their egocentric religion died with their vain Pharaohs and their grandiose temples were buried in sand.
My experience of ancient Egyptian culture is that they seemed more preoccupied with death, rather than life. Of course, fear of death, not unlike the fear of poverty, plays an important role in controlling a population by authority figures vested in maintaining a hierarchical power structure.
The idea of human rights and personal freedom during this lifetime only appeared many centuries later.
BTW, I don’t think the blog has creditability problem.
The truth speaks for itself.
158. Someone
Not even worth addressing.
“It’s about time that some people here start acting like adults and stop childish reactions.”
Damn, when someone’s right , they’re right! So I will fix my previous post on the top ten reasons for the trip to Egypt:
TOP TEN REASONS FOR THE TRIP TO EGYPT
10) To spend money retards give to buy pretty things so the retards will keep giving money.
9) To deep throat cock til Horace.
8)To probe the mysteries of the Sphinxter on the Geeza.
7) Another trip down de Nile.
6) To find 6 more poops.
5) Visit TutKYman
4) Next stop on scavenger hunt
3) Egypt is real esoteric
2) Trying to find exotic animals to bring to Oregon House Ca.
and the #1 reason for the trip to Egypt
1) Sun, pleasant experience, sand and cock
howz that retard?
FOF followers who travel to Egypt to be chummy with Burton are in de Nile.
I was living in Cairo during several of the trips that students took with Robert and thus involved in sundry preparations. I am as sure as I am of anything, (although could not of course provide any proof since such arrangements in other countries are impossible to document) that Robert receives enormous kickbacks from his travel agent, the hotels booked for students, the cruise ships on the Nile, the tour buses, etc. Because I lived there I know what things cost for residents, what they cost for ordinary tourists, and what the cost was for Fellowsip students. The difference was almost unbelievable.
163 Susan
What’s in a kickback ? I’m guessing based on Burton’s m.o. he’s getting it from both ends…. er, ah, both sides… that is, he no doubt over-charges the ‘chosen’ few who travel in his entourage while at the same time he’s getting reduced rates from the travel agent, hotels, etc.
I went on one of the trips on the ‘gold package’. Basically staying in an okay hotel in Cairo and all the events prepaid. Cost me approx $2000 for 3 nights.
89/163. Susan Zannos:
Thanks for corroboration about the ‘esoteric’ reasons for the slow boat to ‘He gypped’ via ‘de Nile.’
89/164. apostate:
‘What’s in a kickback?’
Besides banking beaucoup bucks because boobies get filched and fleeced like bunches of fools, it also means that Bobby gets to ‘kickback’ and relax and enjoy his favorite pastime of masterfully masturbating the minds of many men number four.
‘A fool and his money are soon parted.’
Thomas Tusser (English Farmer, Writer, Poet. 1524-1580).
Here, kicked back by unpopular demand:
’89/27. Bares Reposting – January 20, 2010
89/8. EmmaGoldman:
‘Help!! I am reading this site because someone I care for is in FoF and it is … well, driving us apart. He is going on the FoF exodus to Egypt with RB. Can anyone explain a bit of what this trip is about and what exactly they are doing?’
Besides the surface appearances of what is going on with these ‘Journey Forth By Day’ tours to Egypt, those of cultural, historical, spiritual, etc. – fulfilling Fellowship of Friends, Inc., supposed ‘religious activity,’ there are the more hidden reasons. One such hidden reason is that these Apollo University sponsored junkets are significant profit makers at a time when other Fellowship of Friends avenues to cash flow are severely constrained. Robert Earl Burton must have his money, one way or another. Another is that the FoF four ring circus show must go on. Another is that there may be a villa (safe haven for Burton to escape to) over there – possibly under construction/renovation. Another is the entourage/harem must be stroked and groomed. This is the way Robert Earl Burton does it; potential sexual partners are being courted.
Consider these prior posts:
‘87/203. Associated Press – December 28, 2009
Top reasons Robert Earl Burton will live in Afghanistan rather than Egypt or Mexico.
With all due respect to this post:
75/40. WhaleRider – June 30, 2009:
‘Re: Burton’s villa under construction In Luxor, Egypt.
Why Luxor?
Hmmm…
The “Luxor Temple”…is known in the Egyptian language as ipet resyt, or “the southern harem”.
When I visited the Luxor Temple a couple of years ago, I noted in a section of the temple called the “holiest of the holy”, there is a wall engraving of priests milking semen from a man’s erect penis in some kind of temple ritual. (Unfortunately, it was too dark for photos and a flash would have washed out the image or I would post it.)
[Here it is:
– Picture of the god Amun (aka: Amun-Re or Min) during the fertility festival or Opet Festival (‘Opet’ meaning ‘Secret Chamber’ so it is: “The Festival of the Secret Chamber” – private sanctuary, the holy of holies.) The god is making a donation while priest makes collection.]
As my guide, Mohammed, pointed out, you can see the wall is stained from years of women touching the penis as a fertility charm apparently in order to get pregnant.
There was no literal indication in the engraving of whether the semen was used in the ritual or simply discarded, symbolic of some greater truth, or if it was consumed as a condiment in a temple dinner or sipped as an after-dinner aperitif, or maybe even just used as a hair gel, and I neglected to ask my guide. We were left to our imagination.
Burton is a man of some means who will go to great lengths to justify his mania. You can see from his choice of trees both on and surrounding the property. . .’
Reason 1.: Egypt and Mexico have extradition treaties with United States.
Reason 2.: Afghanistan does not have extradition treaty with United States.
Reason 3.: But more importantly, see next post.
So, you see, there is this phallicy about Egypt or Mexico. Just two choices; that would be formatory.
Sorry about the length and the several posts here.’’
Etc., etc., etc.
161. Yesri Baba
‘8)To probe the mysteries of the Sphinxter on the Geeza.’
Does this mean?:
8)To probe the mysteries of the Sphinxter on the Geezer.
Geezer: slang: a queer, odd, or eccentric man.
Dear Emma Goldman,
you look a very clever and smart woman.
There is nothing you can do about your bfriend, he has to realize by himself that what Robert Burton says is something that has little to do with consciousness, love , unity and integration. The main concern of this man is to keep people working for him either with proper work, or money or sex, he needs to feel in control, because he is not a real free man, he has many, many needs.
Your bfriend may be charmed by the Charisma of Robert B, in fact he has Charisma…but how many people have it or had it …even Hitler , Mussolini, Stalin , were extremely charismatic figures…and people were almost mesmerized bu them….
Believe me there is nothing you can do…..
…or may be your bfriend has some personal interest in staying in the FOF,the so called ‘istincive center’, he may gain something ‘material’ from staying…many actual members do this, they stay because their job is in the hand of a very devoted member and they don’t want to lose it, or because they don ‘t have enough friends outside the fof,who knows?
Hello , I´m a former fellowship member and new here .
Probably you already said many times , can somebody
explain me why REB does not travel in Europe anymore ?
Answer would be appreciate .
I’ve been trying to recall exactly what I was thinking about “trips to Egypt” or “trips to Europe” when I was an fof follower, and what I was thinking while watching Burton slowly walk by with his “quiet and thoughtful act” with five or six men in their 20s and 30s walking alongside, and an almost completely different set of men every time I saw him.
One of my conclusions is that “the ego” provides a huge barrier to seeing what’s obvious. To really SEE the above, it would have required me to challenge my very reason for being a cult member. I would have needed to say to myself, “You know what, I may not be special at all for being here, and in fact I may actually be pretty stupid for being here.”
What eventually broke through the barrier? Lots of things, but what really helped was gradually dragging myself away from the FOF prose — the sleep-inducing language of the Fellowship of Friends — and looking at the world in my words rather than through the words of the cult. So, instead of a “Teacher with his beloved students”, I saw an aging and sick man with a guru act walking by with a set of enslaved and often confused young men, all of them sheepishly hiding a strange secret. And I thought about where the clothes came from, where the cars came from, where the money came from for his trips, and why the FOF had a retention rate of just 10%.
(Think about it: Only about 10% or less of those who join the FOF have stayed, and the percentage is getting smaller and smaller. It’s no wonder Burton needs to spin that as a sign of “how difficult doing the work” is. Because if followers see the fact that so many people people are leaving as a “weak retention rate” — an expression in business used to describe a company that has trouble keeping its customers — they’ll start to think that maybe that 90% sees something they don’t.)
What triggered the change in thinking, I can’t be sure. But breaking through the Ego Barrier of I’m Really Cool for Being a Fourth Way Student started with a change in the vocabulary that I used to describe what I was seeing. I almost completely stopped using the Fourth Way terms, and I especially stopped talking in FOF-ese.
Instead of “making payments,” I was wasting my money on the twisted pleasures of narcissist, and contributing to an illness — with all of its consequences for me and everyone else in the cult.
there are many good posts in this blog and in the many pages before
for people who can read even with FOF glasses.
Hopefully they will shatter quite soon.
168: Thank you Spock for your honest entry, I am sure you have a life now instead of an expensive dream.
Veramente, thank you for that. I was watching a program on television the other night called “Motion”. Two brothers touring parks all around the country and shooting half-hour programs in high-definition… beautiful cinematography, enjoyable music, and very well presented. One brother does the narration, while the other does the filming. It’s tremendously well-done. Highly recommend. Nice, fun vibe.
So, they went to Zion National Park a few months ago. During the program, one of the brothers said something like, “I’ve been told I use the word ‘wow’ quite a bit…” Then he paused and looked around at the colorful rock formations of the canyon high above, and he said, “Screw it… Wow.”
Later he said: “You don’t need to look for beauty at Zion National Park. Everywhere you go, you’ll find beauty here.”
—
To all of you in or out, or both in and out, or neither in nor out:
The blog and the GF literally just scratch the surface of what is possible on the internet. The internet just scratches the surface of what is possible in your life. Take your faith in a single group, and transform it into a faith in the universe and all its multitude of groups, and have faith in its plan for you, and faith in your true un-programmed self.
168, 169 & 170 are new
Thank you for the wise and entertaining posts.
In all spiritual teachings, the seeker is encouraged to set aside judgmental attitudes in an attempt to remain open to something new. ‘Pathways to Presence’ asks this as well.
But Robert, the sly fox, appeals to the vanity of all who are vulnerable to his flattery. Such as the ‘playful innocence of the Solar Type’.
Almost everyone can enjoy a doting parent, especially a ‘conscious’ one who is promising unconditional love.
Play-repressed students, when given permission to ‘be in essence’, will play AND pay foolishly, without hesitation.
89/170. YIC:
‘Hello , I´m a former fellowship member and new here .
Probably you already said many times , can somebody
explain me why REB does not travel in Europe anymore ?
Answer would be appreciate .’
YIC: Read it and weep:
’86/35. Just the Facts Ma’am – November 23, 2009
27. Golden Veil:
L.A. Times/November 4, 1996:
‘Burton travels frequently in Europe, where he meets. . .’ with his worldwide network of sexual liaisons (read: heterosexual male prostitutes persuaded to homosexual acts). Several European countries, it is believed, consider him persona non grata (literally meaning ‘an unwelcome person’) because of various international illegal activities associated with the male sex slave traffic, amongst other things, it may be alleged. It could be said of the situation: ‘a storm in every port;’ to characterize the sexual habits practiced.
28. Golden Veil:
‘Comrade Says:
March 19, 2007 at 8:46 pm:
The Fellowship does occasionally help people who. . .includes married mothers, single parents (only one parent is eligible), disabled students, unemployed members, and full-time college students, etc.’
Based on accounts of bookkeeper(s) processing the ‘donations,’ very special ‘financial’ circumstances are extended to those making the very special donations of sperm on a regular basis. Again, ‘a storm in every port,’ is the way to go.
‘. . .this topic is very uncomfortable for members to discuss.’
Other recent posts, portions of posts, and reposts, are acknowledged as fairly close to accurate but certainly biased by the outside-looking-in on the inside-out, upside-down, bass-ackwards, of the cult. [Don’t forget about the STD’s (sexually transmitted diseases) that are freely passed around. (Oh! we are so very careful and intentional, are we not, goodness?)] Pathway to Presence is a Fellowship of Friends, the new and advanced civilisation.’
’75/11. Just the Facts Ma’am – June 29, 2009
74/301. veramente
‘I hate to think that RB could escape in Egypt without paying his dues to the INS, IRS, and criminal justice. He is not alone of course, he has got lots of helpers who could be facing charges for breaking the law and covering up for him and themselves in many ways.’
People have been, or can be, tried in absentia for criminal activity. Then there are extradition treaties. REB is already persona non grata (person not acceptable) in various jurisdictions around the world. Pretty soon the only opportunity will be to leave the planet to escape.’
International law enforcement probably assumes if you are dishonest enough to be involved in some sort of habitual illegal activity, you are only a step, or so, away from facilitating terrorist activity, as your integrity has been compromised.
Next to drugs, weapons, and money trafficking, sex slavery ranks pretty high in international crime.
I hope this is a joke , cannot be a serious answer .
89/177. YIC:
‘I hope this is a joke , cannot be a serious answer .’
Sorry, no joke. Immigration fraud, in the way of counterfeit documentation to get ‘lovers’ into U.S.A., is just one such, alleged, examples, mentioned here on this blog, that comes to mind immediately. Another is arranged marriages (marriages of convenience) for similar purposes. There are likely other examples.
But I could be wrong.
“… a belief that if you lose, I win.” – Barack Obama, while describing one of the problems with political opposition and contentiousness in the U.S.
But this too is the attitude that guides Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends — that if you lose, I win. For me to be strong, you need to be weak. For me to be connected to something higher, you need to be not connected to something higher. For me to go to Heaven, you need to go to Hell. For me to strong, you need to be weak (which is the key to why he so easily is able to abuse his followers). This dualism guides many organizations and religions and many individuals in this world. It starts wars, it leads to crime and destruction, and prevents change and healing. And if the leader of the Fellowship of Friends believes this is the only way to live his life, he’ll do so while demonstrating he’s absolutely no different from so many others in this world.
The “brightest light”?
No, long ago you failed at being even the faintest flicker of a light, let alone a bright one.
YIC
“Just the fact” is right.
Law suites pending in Russia.
Italian connection with Naples Mafia for forfeiture of Passports,
Incident in France with Robert….lots of info available on internet if you can find your way into the France language/ internet. Robert Burton is persona Non Grata in Europe.
BTW, 2010 is the next carrot for students. Preparing gardens and trying to survive the end of the world. There will be 1500 people to teach humanity presence after 2010.
YIC, that was a good question to ask, and got some interesting answers from MHN and JTF. Wow.
Congrats on leaving. Why’d you leave?
JFT and MHN thank you for your answers , I asked because
I did not know what you knew about this story and I see
that your answer may be partially correct but they are not
the reason why REB is “persona non grata ” in the European
comunity . You were honest JTF when you said “I could be
wrong ” in effect I´m surprise not body here know the real
reason why he is “not acceptable” . It is something that
started in Italy with a lady that left the school and she reported
to the authorities that an italian painting that is in OH should
not be there because belong to the Italian State and could
not leave the Italian country , from there everything started.
Even in The FOF the people does not not the reason why He
cannot go in Europe , they just think is something to do with
VISA problems or something like that , off course somebody
knows the full story but those want stay for convenience
in top at the Fellowship Pyramid so they do not care about the
true and somebody buffer it .
182. YIC
What you say, about state treasures in the way of artwork, may also be true. I vaguely remember something about that and will put the question to some friends that are artists and/or familiar with the art world. There is a 40 year tenure that could produce a good bit of bad bloody with various states both individually and as an organisation. But, what you state being the case, if it is so, does not negate the other reasons mentioned and they are more recent developments that you might not have been aware of until now.
Also, these quasi-religions (Scientology, for instance, recently), have been taken to task by various jurisdictions because people can see through their facades.
183.JTF
Yes , I did not know about the recent developments .
I just know for sure that the “painting” has been the
reason why REB started to be not accepted in the
European community .
no more Gucci, Ferragamo from the source!
YIC, is the painting titled? Does anyone know the painter’s name?
186.silentpurr
Guercino . Venere´s Toilette .
Assuming there’s any truth to the idea that Burton hasn’t gone to Europe in recent months, JTFM is correct that there could be multiple reasons for it — maybe all of the above, and maybe more.
YIC, “not being accepted in the European community” (assuming this is true) is an odd way to describe it — seems to imply something quite serious. Are there any news articles in Italy or another country to back up your claim?
The blog has posted dozens of links to news articles that corroborate many of the comments here… Before people start going down the path that someone is in trouble with the Italian authorities, which is what you’re implying, it would be nice to see some evidence of that. So far, your posts are fairly cryptic.
180. More history needed
If there’s lots of info available on the internet as you wrote, it would be interesting to get some links here so that readers can see directly. It’s possible to use translation websites to get a rough idea of what’s being said. And if the name “Robert Burton” shows up in the article, no translation needed for that.
MHN, you seem a lot more credible to me, but I still find it hard to believe he’s in the sort of trouble you’re suggesting until I see news articles. If he is in the type of trouble you’re suggesting, there are definitely news articles available on the internet, and I would be very interested in reading them. You wrote, “Law suites pending in Russia. Italian connection with Naples Mafia for forfeiture of Passports, Incident in France with Robert.”
Extremely serious, and if you have some inside information, I can understand why you’d want to post anonymously to the blog… However, until you help us out it’s hard to “go there.”
187. YIC
Guercino . Venere´s Toilette .
Sorry, this painting is no national treasure- in Italy or the Kingdom of Apollo. I suspect that the only reason that mediocre work is still hanging in Oregon House, is the fact that is unsellable. The painting was in an old master paintings auction at Sothebys NY in about 1989 and it did not sell. The painting has “problems” as they say in the art world. You might also say it is “burned”.
189 Spock re 180 MHN
I too would like to see more written info about “persona non grata” in Europe.
MHN if you have it and it’s official it would really be great info to post here.
The David Lubber S. letter it’s kind of an info bomb imo.
What does it take to wake up the authorities?
Burton Banned in India
New Delhi, India (URP!)- Officials in India have placed their country on the growing list of sovereign nations banning international persona non grata, Mr. Robert E. Burton, the elderly gay leader of the Fellowship of Friends cult of Mesozoic Christianity who claims to be the brightest light in two thousand years, from their borders and thus thwarting Burton’s plan to recruit new young vulnerable male followers from one of the world’s most populous countries.
“For centuries our country has traditionally produced the best, highest quality, genuine gurus, and we’d like to keep it that way,” said one Indian Official from the Ministry of Religious Affairs, the governmental entity responsible for setting the educational and ethical standards that would-be gurus must meet in order to ply their trade. “Burton doesn’t meet our standards by a long shot. No way. He is not welcome here.”
Over the years India has put in place strict protective barriers on imitation gurus imported from other countries in order to protect their monopoly on the guru market.
When asked to explain India’s concerns about Burton, the Official stated, “Your country is known for flooding the market with cheap guru knock-offs. In order to be a guru in India, you must study under a master for a long time and take a vow of poverty. Not so in the US. Anyone can call themselves a guru in America with little or no study, make false prophecies, promise their followers paradise, make a lot of money, and get away with it. Apparently, Americans are so stupid they’ll believe just about anything you tell them. Burton is a great example of such an imitation guru. He has absolutely no credentials and all his prophecies failed to happen! In India, we have laws to protect our naive spiritual seekers.”
The official went on to say that genuine Indian gurus go through many, many years of rigorous spiritual training and testing to acquire the personal discipline necessary to surround themselves with adoring and eager followers without sexually and financially exploiting them.
Unlike in the US, if gurus are caught mistreating their followers in India, they are stripped of their title and thrown in jail.
Burton has been the defendant in several law suits by ex-followers claiming fraud and sexual misconduct that have been settled out of court by the cult’s insurance company, and yet he still maintains a flock of glassy-eyed followers who lovingly pick up the tab and provide new sexual fodder for his lavish gay lifestyle.
“He’ll just have to go elsewhere,” the Official concluded, “We have standards to uphold.”
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.prevensectes.com/fof8.pdf&ei=J4RiS7OPNovitgOj3bzCBQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBgQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfellowship%2Bof%2Bfriends%2Brobert%2BBurton%2BNaples%2Bpolice%2Bet%2Brecherche%26dq%3Dfellowship%2Bof%2Bfriends%2Brobert%2BBurton%2BNaples%2Bpolice%2Bet%2Brecherche%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_fr%26sa%3DG
Page 1 Page 1
ANNEXE 1 : ROBERT BURTON, dit LE TEACHER ANNEX 1: Robert Burton, told THE TEACHER
Robert Earl Burton est né en 1939 à Little Rock, Arkansa, cinquième enfant d’un négociant de viandes Robert Earl Burton was born in 1939 in Little Rock, Arkansas, fifth child of a meat trader
en gros. Wholesale. A 24 ans en 1963 il est diplômé d’éducation en “pathologie de la parole” puis commence à At 24 years old in 1963 he graduated education “speech pathology” and then begins to
enseigner à des enfants de 9 à 11 ans au collège Springhill de Lafayette. teach children from 9 to 11 years at Springhill College in Lafayette.
Il a été élève en 1967 d’Alexander Horn, le leader du “Theater of All Possibilities”, une dangereuse He was a pupil in 1967 by Alexander Horn, the leader of the “Theater of All Possibilities”, a dangerous
secte de San Francisco, puis, dans la meilleure tradition du système Gurdjieff, il en a été “rejeté”, sect San Francisco, then in the best tradition of Gurdjieff’s system, he has been “dismissed”
à l’instar des principaux disciples de Gurdjieff qui les a rejetés publiquement, à commencer par like the main disciples of Gurdjieff who has publicly released, starting with
ses plus fidèles, Ouspensky et Orage-. his most faithful and Ouspensky-Orage.
Burton en a tiré pour lui-même la doctrine et les techniques pratiquées par Gurdjieff et Ouspensky, puis Burton drew for himself doctrine and techniques practiced by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, then
créé lors d’un réveillon du 31 décembre 1969 sa propre communauté “Fellowship Of Friends”, (un nom created during a Christmas Eve December 31, 1969 of its own community “Fellowship Of Friends” (a name
probablement inspiré par son passage en 1965 chez les Quakers) probably inspired by his visit in 1965 as the Quakers)
Après un épisode itinérant de la communauté en bus Volkswagen à Berkeley, FOF est enregistré en After an episode of the itinerant community Volkswagen bus in Berkeley, FOF is registered
1971 avec statut d’église. 1971 with church status.
Cofondateur de FOF, avec Boneta Guido et une troisième personne (non citée), il en devient Cofounder of FOF with Boneta Guido and a third person (not quoted), it becomes
rapidement le seul maître, et installe la communauté près de Oregon House dans le comté de Yuba, soon the only master, and installs the community near the Oregon House in Yuba County,
Boneta ira créer un GO Centre à Hawaï, avant de partir s’installer en Scandinavie pour y créer Boneta will create a GO Center in Hawaii, before leaving to settle in Scandinavia in order to create
Linbu au Danemark, puis en Suède en y installant H Farestveit un élève de Burton. Linbu in Denmark and Sweden by installing H Farestveit a student of Burton.
Dès 1972, un ex-professeur quitte FOF pour créer à Vacaville, CA, la “School of the New In 1972, a former teacher leaves to create FOF in Vacaville, Calif., the “School of the New
Dawn” une nouvelle communauté ouverte en particulier aux déçus de Burton. Dawn opened a new community especially disappointed with Burton.
La communauté est enthousiaste et va réaliser un travail considérable tout en pensant vivre une The community is enthusiastic and will make considerable work while thinking to live a
expérience spirituelle incomparable. unique spiritual experience. Robert BURTON est bientôt considéré comme d’essence divine, Robert Burton was soon regarded as divine,
en contact avec les forces supérieures, les 44 anges spécifiques. in contact with superior forces, the 44 special angels.
Mais pour beaucoup et après de nombreuses années de labeur, la désillusion sera grande. But for many, after years of toil, disappointment will be great. En bref, In short,
comme l’a avoué son directeur financier Randal en quittant la l’église en 1994 après 23 ans de service, admitted as its chief financial officer Randal leaving the church in 1994 after 23 years of service
” le leader a manipulé les esprits et les corps, avec comme philosophie de se servir lui-même”. “The leader has manipulated the minds and bodies, with a philosophy to serve himself.”
La désillusion pourra même être extrêmement traumatisante voire fatale à certains. The disillusionment may well be very traumatic and even fatal to some.
Vie de luxe Life of luxury
Le Teacher a toujours confondu les dépenses de l’église FOF avec ses propres The Teacher has always confused the expenses of the church with its own FOF
dépenses. expenditure.
En 4/1981, selon le San Francisco Chronicle, Burton recevait 46 000 $/an de FOF , In 4 / 1981, according to the San Francisco Chronicle, Burton received $ 46 000 per year of FOF,
augmentés de frais personnels pour 24 000 $. increased personnel costs for 24 000 $. Il remplaçait sa Rolls par une He replaced his Rolls by
Mercédes 580 SEL Sedan valant 46 000$. Mercedes 580 SEL Sedan worth $ 46 000.
Sa maison très luxueuse comportait nombre d’oeuvres d’art, dont une Its very luxurious house contained many works of art, including a
peinture du 16ème siècle de ‘Vigié Lebrun valant 210 000 $. Painting of the 16th century ‘Vigié Lebrun worth $ 210 000.
Ce même journal évaluait à plus de 1 M$ la valeur des objets d’art déjà acquis, y The same newspaper estimated that more than $ 1 million the value of artifacts already acquired, there
compris des peintures européennes des 16 including European paintings of the 16
ème th
,17 17
ème th
, 18èmes siècles, des , 18th centuries,
bustes en marbre de Horner et Milton, des tapisseries d’Aubusson, des pianos marble busts of Homer and Milton, Aubusson tapestries, pianos
Steinway du début du siècle,… Steinway turn of the century, …
Il fait payer 400 $ le privilège pour certains de dîner avec lui (par groupes de 12) He paid $ 400 for the privilege of some dinner with him (in groups of 12)
Un “remake” de certains dîner de Gurdjieff peut être ? A “remake” of Gurdjieff some dinner maybe?
Du temps de ce dernier, des d’élèves eurent l’impression en quittant la table d’avoir Time this year, the students had the impression after leaving the table to have
assisté à la Cène. attended the Last Supper.
Selon une étude de 1994, Burton reçoit 250 000$ /an de FOF. According to a 1994 study, Burton received $ 250 000 per year of FOF. Il voyage 6 mois/an en He travels 6 months / year
hôtels 5 étoiles partout dans le monde, possède une flotte de voitures (Rolls 5 star hotels around the world, has a fleet of cars (Rolls
Royce, puis Mercedes ), achète des toiles de maîtres anciens, des meubles de la Royce and Mercedes), bought paintings by old masters, the furniture
dynastie Ming et des porcelaines Meissen”. Il est un acheteur assidu de chez Cartier, Ming and Meissen porcelain. “It is hard for a buyer at Cartier,
Mercedes, Hermès, Gucci,… Mercedes, Hermes, Gucci, …
Alors que ses adeptes vivent dans la pauvreté et pour beaucoup y perdent argent et santé, While its followers live in poverty and many are losing money and health,
BURTON “vit dans l’opulence et est un collectionneur avide”. BURTON “live in opulence and is an avid collector.
Page 2 Page 2
Frasques et tromperies du Teacher Pranks and deceptions of the Teacher
A l’enthousiasme du début vécu de ses premiers membres succède le désenchantement de nombre The enthusiasm of the early experience of its original members followed by the disillusionment of many
d’entre eux, qui sans s’avouer qu’ils font partie d’une véritable secte coercitive, découvrent peu à peu of them, without admitting that they are part of a real cult coercive gradually discover
les tromperies de leur “Professeur”. the deceit of their “Professor”.
1984 1984
Un des membres du conseil d’administration d’origine, Samuel S. One member of the Board of origin, Samuel S. dénonce les pratiques homosexuelles denounces homosexual practices
de Robert, après avoir usé de son statut pour le séduire. Robert, after having used his status to seduce him. Les pratiques homosexuelles sont en Homosexual practices are
contradiction avec les règlements qu’il a lui-même édictés. contradiction with the regulations it has itself enacted. Samuel engage un procès contre Burton. Samuel filed a lawsuit against Burton.
Après recueil de témoignages, la presse fait savoir que ce dernier a eu des relations homosexuelles After taking evidence, the press reported that it had homosexual relations
avec un grand nombre de ses étudiants, -plusieurs centaines selon les témoignages-. with many of his students-many hundreds, according to testimony. Il vivait He lived
simultanément avec plusieurs d’entre eux. simultaneously with several of them. “Cela faisait partie de son enseignement”, disent des “It was part of his teaching”, say
anciens élèves. alumni.
Une femme qui avait imaginé que Burton l’aimait, se suicide avec un pistolet en ayant eu A woman who had imagined that Burton loved him, commits suicide with a gun who had
connaissance du procès. knowledge of the trial. Il y eut deux autres suicides à la même époque, sans compter les There were two other suicides at the same time, not counting
accidents de voiture de membres ayant conduit jusqu’à épuisement. Car accidents leading members to exhaustion.
Deux opposants à Burton, Harold et Stella, quittent FOF pour recréer un nouveau groupe de Two opponents Burton, Harold and Stella leave FOF to recreate a new group
la 4 the 4
ème th
Voie, à l’intention des “désillusionnés de FOF, NAW, et SOW”, et “pour aider ces Lane, for the “disillusioned FOF, NAW, and SOW”, and “to help these
anciens membres à restaurer leur santé émotionnelle d’avant” former members to restore their emotional health before ”
1988 1988
26 élèves témoignent contre le “Professeur” devant le juge du Comté de Yuba. 26 students demonstrated against the “Professor” before the judge of Yuba County. Selon eux, Burton les a According to them, Burton has
abusé sexuellement en usant de son autorité. sexually abused by using its authority.
Mais ces faits, reprochés par des adultes, même jeunes, avaient peu de chances d’être pris en But these facts alleged by adults, even young people were unlikely to be taken into
considération. consideration.
L’affaire commença à troubler plus d’un membre de la communauté du fait que Burton avait lui- The case began to disturb more than one member of the community that Burton had himself
même érigé en règle l’interdiction de toute relation homosexuelle et qu’il les avait donc even made the rule prohibiting any homosexual relationship and it had therefore
trompés. deceived. Une centaine de membres quittent la communauté. One hundred members leave the community.
1993 1993
Selon le journal Appeal Democrat du 7/5/93, tous les plaignants ont retiré leur plainte après According to the Appeal Democrat newspaper of 7/5/93, all plaintiffs withdrew their complaint after
que Renaissance leur eût versé 600 000$, il y eut non-lieu et le juge ordonna les scellées des Renaissance that they had paid $ 600 000, there was no case and the judge ordered them sealed for
témoignages. testimony.
Nouvelles informations depuis 1994 New information since 1994
L’histoire de cette “église” est plus que jamais liée à son leader, le “Professeur” Burton. The history of this “church” is more than ever linked to its leader, the “Professor” Burton.
1994 1994
Nouvelle affaire portée devant le tribunal New case before the court
Richard Laurel (nom d’adepte), remarié dans APOLLO, diffuse une lettre ouverte à tous les membres Richard Laurel (name of practitioner), remarried in APOLLO, broadcasts an open letter to all members
de FOF d’APOLLO. FOF of APOLLO. Il relate comment, ayant été admis dans le premier cercle en tant que chauffeur He recounts how, having been admitted into the inner circle as a driver
particulier du ” Teacher” Robert Burton, il a été abusé par ce dernier, en étant amené à lui faire des especially the “Teacher” Robert Burton, he was abused by him, being led to him making
massages puis des faveurs sexuelles pendant plusieurs années. massages and sexual favors for several years. Il s’est alors rendu compte que “son He then realized that “his
fils de 17 ans et plusieurs douzaines de membres masculins hétérosexuels avaient aussi été abusés son of 17 years and dozens of male heterosexuals were also abused
par Robert qui utilisait son pouvoir de leader censé communiquer directement avec les “44 anges by Robert, who used his power as leader supposed to communicate directly with the “44 angels
spécifiques” de la “C-influence”. La presse relate bon nombre de cas individuels, tous incrédules d’avoir specific “to” C-influence “. The press describes many individual cases, all unbelievers have
pu être autant manipulés. could be handled much.
C. C. Randel, le Directeur financier de FOF, quitte l’organisation, se déclarant humilié. Randel, the CFO of FOF, leaves the organization, expressing humiliated.
Une action collective en justice se termine par un compromis financier, un non-lieu, et l’interdiction aux A class action suit ends in a financial compromise, a non-place, and the prohibition to
plaignants de rendre public les détails de l’arrangement,- comme cela avait déjà été fait pour des faits complainants to make public the details of the arrangement – as had already been made for
similaires 10 ans auparavant -. like 10 years ago -.
1995 1995
Page 3 Page 3
Un groupe de fondamentalistes (Olivehurst Gospel Assembly) accuse publiquement FOF de laisser A group of fundamentalists (Olivehurst Gospel Assembly) publicly accused of leaving FOF
pratiquer des abus sexuels sur enfants, mais l’affaire n’ira pas plus loin. practice of child sexual abuse, but the matter will go no further. Une psychose s’installe dans la Psychosis settles in
région. region.
Une enquête est ouverte par les services d’urbanisme et de santé du Comté. An investigation by the planning departments and County Health. Les non-conformités Non-conformities
(architecture, insalubrité du restaurant) se traduisent par des amendes, mais en retour par le limogeage (architecture, unhealthy restaurant) result in fines, but in return for the dismissal
du Directeur des Investigations de ce Comté. Director of Investigations of the County.
FOF promet de remédier aux non-conformités. FOF promises to address the non-conformities.
1996 1996
En 2 ans, on compte 250 démissions et/ou expulsions se traduisant par des pertes financières In 2 years, there were 250 resignations and / or evictions resulting in financial losses
importantes, d’autant que la plupart sont des membres américains qui rapportaient individuellement 2 important, especially since most members are individual Americans who reported 2
fois plus d’argent que les membres non-américains. times more money than non-American members. Le centre APOLLO n’est plus ouvert au public The center APOLLO is more open to the public
qu’un seul jour par semaine. one day per week. Les tours de tourisme sont suspendus. The towers of tourism are suspended. L'”église” se referme sur elle- The “church” closes on itself
même. same. Burton pèse alors 135 kg (30lbs), pour une taille de 1m85 (6ft). Burton then weighs 135 kg (30lbs) for a height of 1m85 (6ft).
Nouveaux scandales. New scandals.
BT, un jeune chauffeur de 21 ans dit avoir été abusé sexuellement par le “Professeur” dans des BT, a young driver 21 years says she was sexually abused by the “Professor” in
conditions similaires à celles de Laurel. conditions similar to those of Laurel. Il se convainc de porter l’affaire en justice, après avoir obtenu He is convinced to take the case to court, after obtaining
une audience avec le Dalaï Lama “qui lui confirme que sexe et spiritualité ne doivent pas être an audience with the Dalai Lama “which confirms that sex and spirituality should not be
mélangés”. mixed.
Il demande 5 millions de $ pour le préjudice subi depuis l’âge de 17 ans. He asked for $ 5 million for damages suffered since the age of 17. Un nouvel arrangement A new arrangement
financier est obtenu avec interdiction pour le plaignant de faire connaître cet arrangement. Financial is obtained with a ban for the plaintiff to do about this arrangement. (“The case is ( “The case is
over”, annonce le juge). over, “announced the judge).
1998 1998
Le tremblement de terre majeur et l’engloutissement de la Californie prédits par le “Teacher ” n’ont pas The major earthquake and the sinking of California predicted by the “Teacher” did not
eu lieu. occurred. Pas de chance, des tremblements de terre, fréquents en Californie, ont eu lieu avec des No luck, earthquakes, common in California, have been held with
amplitudes importantes (entre 5,8 et 7,6 sur l’échelle de Richter) en 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, large amplitudes (between 5.8 and 7.6 on the Richter scale) in 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993,
1994,1999, 2003, – mais pas en 1998-. 1994.1999, 2003, – but not in 1998 -.
Burton, qui a obligé ses adeptes à déménager et à apporter de nouveaux dons, annonce que les “44 Burton, who had led its followers to relocate and provide new grants, announced that “44
anges spécifiques” avec qui se dit en relation étroite l’ont humilié. specific angels “with whom said to have close relationship humiliated.
FOF attaque en diffamation le Los Angeles Times (Times Mirror Cy), ainsi que deux sociologues de FOF libel attack the Los Angeles Times (Times Mirror Cy), and two sociologists
renom, Margaret Thaler Singer (élève de Lifton, auteur du premier rapport gouvernemental sur le renowned Margaret Thaler Singer (student Lifton, author of the first government report on the
“lavage de cerveau” pendant la Guerre de Corée), et Janjia Lalich, (son adjointe et membre d’un “brainwashing” during the Korean War), and Janjia Lalich, (his deputy and member of a
groupe de soutien d’anciens adeptes de sectes californiennes). support group for former members of cults in California). Le procès se termine par un non-lieu The trial ends with a non-place
aux dépens de FOF qui doit acquitter tous les frais de justice et d’avocats, avec 5000$ pour Mme the expense of FOF who must pay all court costs and lawyers, with $ 5,000 for Mrs.
Singer, 1000$ pour J Lalich et 14000 $ pour le Los Angeles Times. Singer, 1000 for $ J Lalich and $ 14,000 for the Los Angeles Times.
Août 2002 August 2002
Nouvelles révélations d’un jeune homme, membre de FOF depuis 8 ans, qui réalise à quel point New revelations of a young man, member of FOF for 8 years, realizing how
Burton abuse sexuellement des hommes, jeunes ou vieux, et à quel point un véritable harem masculin Burton sexually abused men, young or old, and how a real harem male
est organisé. is organized. Il dénonce des disparitions. He denounced disappearances.
Retour sur la personnalité et sur les croyances du “Teacher” : Back on the personality and beliefs of the “Teacher”:
Robert Burton parle avec charisme, compassion, présence et une grande autorité. Robert Burton speaks with charisma, compassion, presence and great authority. Il est comme un père It is like a father
pour nombre de ses chefs de groupes. for number of group leaders. “Mes étudiants, mes enfants “, dit-il. “My students, my children,” he said.
Il est décrit comme un homme “à qui il est impossible de résister”, prophétique, inaccessible (il voyage 6 He is described as a man “to whom it is impossible to resist,” prophetic inaccessible (he travels 6
mois par an). months per year).
Il est d’une certaine façon victime de ses propres illusions. It is somehow a victim of its own illusions.
A ses proches il raconte comment “son accident a été arrangé par les At its close he tells how “the accident was arranged by
Forces Supérieures, afin de forger le développement final de sa conscience Superior forces to forge the final development of his conscience
supérieure”. Il aurait eu “144 points de suture” (chiffre biblique). higher. It would have 144 stitches (biblical figure).
Cette anecdote mythique n’est pas sans rappeler le premier accident de voiture de This mythical story is reminiscent of the first car accident
Gurdjieff que l’on retrouva “comme mort” mais la tête sur un oreiller. Gurdjieff was found that “like death” but the head on a pillow.
Il raconte aussi comment il sut par discipline personnelle s’interdire de parler It also tells how he learned self-discipline to refrain from speaking
pendant 16 mois : “Ma mère était alors dans un hôpital et elle était for 16 months: “My mother was then in a hospital and was
Page 4 Page 4
mourante. dying. Elle allait avoir une opération à coeur ouvert et j’étais dans mon It would have open heart surgery and I was in my
15 ème ou 16 ème mois de silence. 15 th or 16 th month of silence. Je m’interdisais de parler. I forbade myself to speak. Je suis venu la I came to the
voir dans cet hôpital, et je n’ai pas parlé. see in this hospital, and I have not spoken. C’était mon but de ne pas parler” (San That was my goal not to speak “(San
Francisco Chronicle 20-4-1981). Francisco Chronicle 20-4-1981).
Il affirme que son école est “la seule école au monde en relation directe avec les forces He says his school is “the only school in the world in direct relation with the forces
supérieures”, les “44 anges spécifiques” de la “C-influence” qui communiquent avec lui, Awards “, the” 44 special angels “from the” C-influence “that communicate with him
parmi lesquels Jésus, Platon, Goete, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln. including Jesus, Plato, Goette, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln.
Il laisse la rumeur dire qu’il est la 2 It leaves the rumor that he is the 2
ème th
venue du Christ. coming of Christ.
Quand on lui demanda s’il était Jésus Christ, Burton fit un long silence, puis murmura When asked if he was Jesus Christ, Burton was a long silence, then murmured
“Thou sayest it” (“Ils le disent”), qui fut la réponse de Jésus Christ à Ponce Pilate qui lui “Thou sayest it” ( “They say”), which was the answer of Jesus Christ to Pontius Pilate who
demandait s’il était le roi des juifs, -Marc 15.2-. asked if he was the king of the Jews, Mark 15.2-.
Sa vision est apocalyptique. His vision is apocalyptic.
Il se considère comme “un être conscient”, “l’Avatar de l’Age”, un prophète envoyé pour He considers himself “a conscious being,” the Avatar of the Age, “a prophet sent to
préserver une petite partie de l’humanité contre l’Holocauste. preserve a small part of humanity against the Holocaust.
Il se prend pour le “Christ de l’Age”, pour le “5 He sees himself as the “Christ of the Ages” for the “5
ème th
homme”, pour le nouveau “Maître”, pour l'”homme man “for the new” Master “for the” man
N°7″ annoncé par Ouspensky. Il continue à prédire la fin du monde en 2006 par un holocauste No. 7 “announced by Ouspensky. It continues to predict the end of the world in 2006 by a Holocaust
nucléaire, et que seuls survivront les élèves de FOF qui auront atteint le niveau de conscience nuclear, and only survive FOF students who have reached the level of consciousness
suffisant. enough. Il sauvera alors les arts et la civilisation. He then save the arts and civilization. Seul son groupe survivra, tandis que le Only the group will survive, while the
Monde disparaîtra. World disappear.
Pour lui, les institutions extérieures sont des ennemis, avec en particulier la police, les docteurs, les For him, external institutions are enemies, especially the police, doctors,
prêtres,… qui tous font obstacle à l’illumination. priests … all of which impede enlightenment.
Son cercle proche le présente comme un homme bon et plein de compassion. His inner circle on this as a good and compassionate.
Il sait en effet se montrer comme tel en apparence, mais sa “compassion” a des limites, à en juger par He knows indeed show themselves as such in appearance, but his “compassion” has limits, judging by
ces quelques exemples : these few examples:
– Lorsqu’un membre a le sida, il l’envoie en mission hors des Etats-Unis (en Italie, son pays de – When a member has AIDS, he dispatches outside the United States (in Italy, country of
prédilection). preferred).
– Malgré ses promesses réitérées, il n’a jamais rendu visite à un de ses proches disciples, – Despite repeated promises, he never visited one of his closest disciples,
atteint d’un cancer du pancréas, alors qu’il passait régulièrement devant l’hôpital où ce dernier était suffering from pancreatic cancer, when he went regularly to the hospital where it was
soigné. treatment.
– Dans son journal Via del Sol du 26-10-1971 (à l’instar d’Ouspensky), il a écrit “qu’il ne faut pas – In his diary of Via del Sol 26-10-1971 (to like Ouspensky), he wrote “should not
essayer de sauver quelqu’un qui tente de se suicider”; que “ceux qui font cela recommenceront à se trying to save someone who attempts suicide “and that” those who do it to resume
suicider indéfiniment dans d’autres vies”. De fait plusieurs suicides relatés n’ont pas été empêchés. suicide indefinitely in other lives. “Indeed recounted several suicides were not prevented.
– La mère d’une adepte décédée après un long combat contre un cancer a retrouvé et publié – The mother of a fan died after a long battle against cancer was found and published
sur Internet (www.geocities.com/Athens/8444) une lettre adressé à sa fille par son responsable de Internet (www.geocities.com/Athens/8444) sent a letter to his daughter by his responsible
centre FOF, – pour défaut de paiement– : FOF center – for default -:
“Chère Sharole (Sheila de son vrai nom ) “Dear Sharole (Sheila’s real name)
Comme tu l’as demandé, voici les “angles” que t’offre le Teacher. Since you asked, here are the “corners” that offers you the Teacher.
“Dis Hello à Sharole de ma part. Et dis-lui de se rappeler qu’elle travaille avec l’Influence-C “Say Hello to Sharole on my part. And tell him to remember that it works with the C-Influence
( nota : les forces supérieures ) et qu’elle doit donc être une femme d’affaire avisée avec eux. (Note: the superior forces) and must therefore be a shrewd businesswoman with them.
Dis-lui qu’elle a longtemps tenu bon et qu’il n’y a pas de raison qu’elle ne puisse pas continuer Tell her she has long held firm and there is no reason it can not continue
éternellement; c’est à dire jusqu’à ce qu’elle devienne un ange. forever, ie until it becomes an angel. Rappelle-lui qu’elle est sur la Remind him that she is on the
voie d’un avertissement et qu’elle doit régulièrement faire ses donations dès maintenant, ou way of a warning and should make their regular donations now, or
sinon il lui faudra quitter Fellowship”. otherwise he will leave Fellowship.
“Dis-lui que la seule autre place est d’aller en enfer”. “Tell him the only other place is going to hell.”
Ce sont ses mots, Sharole. These are his words, Sharole.
Bonnes chances à toi. Good luck to you.
Sincèrement Sincerely
JB/dh JB / dh
Original French text:
– La mère d’une adepte décédée après un long combat contre un cancer a retrouvé et publié
Contribute a better translation
For falsification of the passport, connect with the Russian painter who did the ceilings in the Galeria
When Robert was dismissed in March from the school he was teaching Lafayette it was said he was hugging the children too much. Strang for a teacher to “be dismissed” in March.
MM who lives in Paris was involved in the passport fraud.
Try to get the book from MD about her working in the Galeria in 74-78(?).
“Don’t believe in great men, believe in yourself.”
Howard Zinn 1922-2010
190.Dick Moron .
The reason nobody wants buy the Guercino is
because they know it should not be there .
It is a very nice painting , it is not mediocre , sorry.
88/274. Wouldnt You Like To Know:
’88/260. WhaleRider:
‘And even though you continue to make sustained Herculean efforts to be perfect, your flaws still exist, which is just more job security for Burton. He provides the so-called “spiritual exercises” in which you fail at, thus reinforcing the perpetual need for the outside authority figure to set the bar and determine what is “spiritual” and what is not when in fact the cult is deadening your spirit.’
Not ’sustained Herculean efforts;’ Sisyphean effort.
Herculean efforts are those that are all different, super-human, heroic, and, usually, death defying.
Sisyphean effort is the same repeated absurd and useless effort that leads to no result of conSEQUENCE, as a conSEQUENCE of hubris.
Excerpted from Wikipedia:
In Greek mythology, Sisyphus was a king punished in Tartarus [a level, in afterlife, that is lower than Hell] by being cursed to roll a huge boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, and to repeat this throughout eternity.
Sisyphus . . . was avaricious and deceitful, violating the laws of hospitality by killing travelers and guests . . . took pleasure in these killings because they allowed him to maintain his dominant position . . . famed as the craftiest of men . . . seduced his niece, took his brother’s throne and betrayed Zeus’ secrets. Zeus then ordered Thanatos (Death personified) to chain Sisyphus in Tartarus. Sisyphus slyly asked Thanatos to try the chains to show how they worked. When Thanatos did so, Sisyphus secured them and threatened him. This caused an uproar, and no human could die until Ares (who was annoyed that his battles had lost their fun because his opponents would not die) intervened, freeing Death and sending Sisyphus to Tartarus.
However, before Sisyphus died, he had told his wife to throw his naked body into the middle of the public square in attempt to test his wife’s love for him. Annoyed by the loveless obedience of his wife, Sisyphus persuaded Persephone, Queen of the Underworld, to allow him to go back to the upper world and scold his wife for not burying his body as a loving wife would. When Sisyphus returned to Corinth, he refused to retreat back to the underworld and was forcibly dragged back to the underworld by Hermes. In another version of the myth, Persephone was directly persuaded that he had been conducted to Tartarus by mistake and ordered him to be freed.
“Sisyphean task” or “Sisyphean challenge”
As a punishment from the gods for his trickery, Sisyphus was compelled to roll a huge rock up a steep hill, but before he could reach the top of the hill, the rock would always roll back down again, forcing him to begin again. The maddening nature of the punishment was reserved for Sisyphus due to his hubristic belief that his cleverness surpassed that of Zeus.’
Here is a picture of Sisyphus worth a thousand words:
http://bit.ly/aZtenY
195. YIC
Well, you seem to have a higher estimation of il Guercino than the rest of the modern world.
Anyway, I did a little research and saw that this painting, or a duplicate, sold at Sotheby’s London auction on July, 2002 for about 1,000,000 Great Britain Pounds. So did the FOF actually unload this dog of a painting? Looks like there might have been a little profit in that sale. So what’s the “treasure” issue with Italy if the thing sold at a public auction?? Do tell us.
194 yb
thank you for the video of a beautiful man
197.dick moron
Seems you do not know to much about the ” Galleria ” , maybe
you are/were a little ” far ” from the life there ! the Guercino is there
at least from 20 years and off course is the authentic one , I
do not know what you found they sold there but is not the
same painting .
197.dick moron
Don’t even bother. You know how the FOF turns out art critics and historians by the dozen. Luckily when they leave they’ll readily be able to find jobs as garbage collectors.
199.yic
Yes I have made it a priority to stay as “far” from the life at the Galleria as is possible.
For anyone who cares:
http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=3TGLL
From the description, this appears to be the real Guercino. If there is another still in Oregon house, it is either copy or the sale in 2002 fell through.
Anyway, why would anyone trust the taste of the man who bought this trite work.
Sotheby’s London, July 10,2002
LOT 62
The Property of a West Coast Institution
Giovanni Francesco Barbieri, called il Guercino
Cento 1591 – 1666 Bologna
THE TOILET OF VENUS
1,200,000—1,800,000 GBP
Lot Sold. Hammer Price with Buyer’s Premium: 1,216,650 GBP
194
Thanks yesri
Never had a moment of inspiration from that painting, or any sense of awe. Another symbol of excess in the kingdom of bob. Last time I saw that room, it looked like the FOF had entered a contest to see how many expensive artifacts could be placed on the walls — embroidery, tapestries, paintings, etc., in bright pinks and oranges and reds and blues. Las Vegas-esque. trippy.
“The only way they can hold power is to lie to the people.”
thanks Yesri.
If my memory is correct this was the reason the painting was not sold a few years ago. The copy in the Galleria is most likely a copy. Of course Robert said: something “what a play it was that we had the painting back”. I remember him saying this in a meeting and he seemed to believe himself.
193. More history needed:
You don’t really expect anyone is going to read that jibberish you posted. But, thank you for the link to that translation.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I hope this poop on the Guercino Venus Bathing (The Toilet of Venus) painting helps settle some issues a bit. The painting was removed from the Galleria around the time of the Sotheby’s sale (and possibly at other times) – as best as I remember. (BTW, the Sotheby’s page lists the provenance; seems like it was already out of Italy prior to its showing up in Oregon House; for what that is worth. Sotheby’s is pretty good at doing their home work.) The story was that it was up for sale and the story continued on that it did sell. Arrangement was made for a lease back, preservation, and housing of the object. This way, FoF could enjoy almost all the benefits of ownership without possessing it and tying up capital. Of course, it would mean making payments. But, it would be cared for and on display. It is a large painting – the figures being near life size. This writer does not particularly give it high marks, as Spock 89/203 stated: ‘Never had a moment of inspiration from that painting, or any sense of awe.’ It’s somewhat dark and brooding. A better description could be: The Vanity of Venus. She is looking at herself in a mirror. For me, it was primarily decorative and its main value was that its huge size covered a lot of wall space that otherwise would have required several paintings and decorative objects. So, yes, perhaps symbolic of the vanity of Fellowship of Friends. Here is large version:
http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Sothebys/3TGLL_L02111-62
The Toilet of Venus…. Baloney!
(Non-native English speakers take note: in American English, “Bologna” sausage is called “baloney” and “baloney” is idiomatic English for “falsehood”; a euphemism for “bullshit.”)
I am hearing a lot about twitter these days and wonder if it could be used to bring more attention to the FOF cult.
Anyone here with some twitter experience and if it would be a good idea or not to to tweet dangerous cults.
206 is new
206. just the facts m’mam (joe friday)
How interesting about the Guercino. Sounds like it was bought at auction in 2002 by an investor group with an arrangement to lease it back to FOF (probably for not much money) as caretakers for their investment. An “on Loan” arrangement with a “non-profit museum”.
I wonder if it was the now-failed art investment group, Artemis Fine Art ltd. I know that R.B. and the FOF were involved with these guys in the early-1980s. The Guercino was in a Sothebys NY auction around 1989 and it not sell. I know because I was there monitoring the sale for the Burton.
And i agree that the painting is little more than a large wall covering that happened to be worth a lot of money at one time. But then, the entire Academy/Galleria is a just a little puff of decorative fluff.
The Toilet of Venus
You people are so blind. For those who have eyes to see this portrait is a symbolic representation of the highest esoteric knowledge that can be communicated- World #2.
Don’t join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects.
When cannibals ate a missionary, they got a taste of religion.
What I remember is that the FOF’s Guercino turned out to be a fake
For the sake of curiosity, does anyone know who makes up the 44 Angels, Conscious Beings, Guides – I’m not sure of the correct terminology….?
I’ve been told the list includes Leonoard da Vinci, Raphael, Michelangelo, Benjamin Franklin, Lewis Carrol and apparently Elizabeth I. Does anyone know the others?
Thanks.
213. rock that boat
You might be thinking of the Ugolino which was discovered to be a fake when it was tested by the J. Paul Getty Museum. The Getty was going to buy the painting and no one suspected it was fake. Standard scientific testing revealed that it was not authentic.
The FOF had paid about $1,000,000 for it and I assume the money was refunded by the Swiss art dealer that sold the thing.
rock that boat:
You can’t possibly be suggesting that the FOF tried to sell something that was fake, are you?…that they possibly could have stooped so low as to have been attempting to profit from selling something that was in reality only a cheap imitation?
And once the truth was discovered that the work was in fact not what it appeared to be, that the FOF’s claim of its authenticity was proven to be unfounded…that the buyer backed out of the deal?
How could that be…I mean, given that the FOF operates only under the guiding hand of c-influence?
What a shock. This is so unexpected. I am wordless.
Question for the computer people:
I am trying to find out if we can use tweet to publicize FOF PtP dangerous cult.
Any of you think this is an OK idea?
If you are familiar with tweet in general I’ll like to hear what do you think. Thanks! : )
214 is new
214 Sergio
It’s been a while but here are a few-
Caligula
Liberace
Tinkerbell
Buckwheat
Kaptain Kangaroo
Capn’ Crunch
Jim Jones
David Koresch
Grouch Marx
Harpo
Zeppo
and the other one
J. Edger Hoover
Ronald Reagan
Joseph Mengele
Mutt
Jeff
Bud Abbot
Lou Costello
Jason
Freddie
Pol Pot
Bozo
W.C. Fields
P.T. Barnum
Joseph (son of Jacob), Moses, Solon, Ezekiel, Lao-Tzu, Buddha, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Virgil, Horace, Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Omar Khayyam, Dante Alighieri, Francesco Petrarca, Hafiz, Geoffrey Chaucer, Fra Angelico, Leonardo da Vinci, Michel de Montaigne, Elizabeth I, Miguel de Cervantes, William Shakespeare, Rembrandt van Rijn, John Milton, Antonio Vivaldi, Johann Sebastian Bach, Benjamin Franklin, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, William Blake, Hans Christian Andersen, Abraham Lincoln, Walt Whitman, Lewis Carroll, George Gurdjieff, Rainer Maria Rilke, Peter Ouspensky, Meher Baba, Rodney Collin.
217.
I use twitter for fun and some useful connections in fields I am interested in. You follow people and they might follow you back…
If you want to use twitter in order to warn people about the FOF (Pathway to Presence), you need an account (meaning an email address) and someone to write regularly, otherwise people do not follow you… You need to investigate tags you need to use and lists and all that. One other interesting thing is to see whether there are groups already who do warn others about cults… you could connect with them… Yes, you need a person behind the computer but the rest is very simple…
Along the same lines the FOF does its homework and if you search on Facebook under:
“La ‘Quarta Via’ a Firenze – Insegnamenti di Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Collin”
you’ll find the active centre of Florence (marvelous city by the way!), and there must be more… the Fellowship of Friends works hard to hide its identity and I suspect it will work out at the end…
good for the ones who do not wish to discontinue living in illusions…
oh, I forgot to mention that to my surprise I see old friends in Facebook who have two accounts; one for the current Fellowship members and one for “Life people” and ex-members…
quite disturbing… that division… higher-lower, current-ex… what an emotional mess in the name of what? a self-pronounced “spiritual leader.”
Thank you “Yesri Baba” for your thought-provoking list.
And thank you even more “Wouldnt You Like To Know” for what I suspect is a more accurate (or at least more up to date) list.
Obviously, I am not a former member or I would know the 44. However, I grew up in Oregon House and was always curious as to who comprised the “Influence”. It’s an interesting mix of characters. And I hate to admit it, but I had to Google a couple of them to see who they were.
Thanks again.
Sergio, lol. “the 44”? Which one of “the 44” put you up to this? You use a lot of FOF-ese in your post. You must hang out with the cult members all the time… It’s hard to see it, though, when you’re immersed in it.
Yesri Baba’s list actually is thought provoking. Rather than bow down in reverence to your question he had some fun with it. I wish I’d run into people responding that way more often when I was a cult member — would’ve made me think.
—-
Panorea, yep, that’s weird. That strange division made me question what I was doing in the FOF. Why was I so concerned about others knowing I was a member of this strange organization if I was doing something that’s healthy and wise? Regarding Facebook, I’m actually glad to hear people are on social networking sites, even if they keep it divided as you describe. At least they’re reaching out in some way. The Internet is not Burton’s friend.
Sergio,
To the best of my knowledge, the 44 angels working with the school are;
Jeffrey Dahmer,
Bernard Madoff,
Donny Osmond,
Richard Nixon,
Mickey Mouse,
Billy Graham,
Heinrich Himler,
Ted Bundy,
Liberace,
Tinkerbell,
Harry Houdini,
Gianni Versace,
Josef Stalin,
Ronald MacDonald,
Idi Amin,
Engelbert Humperdink,
Osama Bin Laden,
Coco the Clown,
Satan,
Dick Cheney,
Boxcar Willie,
Bob Hope,
Roy Rogers & Trigger,
Manuel Noriega,
Rush Limbaugh,
Pat Robertson,
Saddam Hussein,
Pontius Pilate,
Mahmoud Ahmedinajad
Robert Mugabe,
Garth Brooks,
Atilla the Hun,
Darth Vader,
Hitler,
Howard Hughes
Barnum & Bailey,
Judy Garland,
Napoleon,
Caligula,
Jack the Ripper,
Charles Manson,
Geraldo.
What about the woman number eight, the octomom?
226 Opus 111 Regarding the Octomom,. Not a reliable choice. She has her hands full already I would say!
225. harryhindsight
Hey, you forgot: The Lone Ranger, Tonto and Silver:
How about: Batman and Robin (Burtonman and Robbin’):
(Actually looks like deMan and Asaf)
Or, Spiderman, creeps you out by creeping up on you while you sleep in order to grab your p. . .:
Or, maybe Zorro:
What do they all have in common?
They all wear masks to hide their true identification.
219. Yesri Baba:
Sorry, No Bozos
How about these guys?:
No-Evil Brothers
Panorea thank you for the info on Tweet.
Will continue explore the possibility.
Is it still verboten to name Juan’s pets after any of the 44? Anybody? Anybody?
I didn’t know Juan was restricted in this way.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult.htm
“Getting out of a cult is far more difficult than getting into one.”
It takes Juan to know Juan
237 is new
232 I’ll never tell
Whadaya mean? Bozo is working intensely with DC.
Thlot Plickens,
Nice link (nice name, too). Thanks. I think it is possible for lots of current members to read that article and find that it doesn’t apply to the Fellowship.(!)
What’s interesting about that is the purported Fourth Way mental blinders that a members wears to protect themselves from unsavory impressions, like for example, the huge field of information here on this blog. I know of ex-members who still feel/think that way, even though they exited the FoF over a year or two ago. I know of so many other current members who cannot see Robert’s actions as anything other than those of a “conscious being”, as they have tweaked their own mind to control their perceptions.
IMO, the Fourth Way’s encouragement of presence and divided attention is fine (even wonder full) but only so long as you stay wide open. Here’s a nice pertaining quote from Adyashanti that just came across my desk this morning:
“Don’t make your spiritual life about special moments. Don’t separate your spirituality from life. If you do, what you’ll end up with is a great abyss between your spiritual life and your everyday life.”
My new bumper sticker:
No Juan, Know Juan; Know Juan, No Juan.
For sale in the gift shop on your way out.
Hmmm…
Sunday the 7th.
Super Bowl 44
Saints vs. Colts
Anybody ready to place their bets?
A Hundred Thousand Angels 5:44:
244. hundredthousandangels
You are the undisputed Queen of Kitch. I hope you’re doing more than collecting and dreaming of angels.
meow!
244 — hundred thousand angels
Most of those angels look like they are stuck in the “do me” interval.
Ellen 241
For those still “avoiding negative impressions” after leaving the FOF–I believe they have left the cult physically, while their minds remain enslaved. I have seen it many times. Clinging to easy answers offered by the 4th Way dogma, unwilling to give up the belief in Juan’s specialness — behind it is fear. Fear of being just another clueless inhabitant, fear of damnation to hell (or the moon), fear of the stern disapproval of all those angels.
Some ex-members still even refer to G and O as “Mister Gurdjieff.”
You have freed your body — now free your mind!
244: A 100.000 angels
I do not get your point. Why so many cheesy angels?
247. surleyujest
Most of those angels look like they are stuck in the “do me” interval.
Good one.
I think this is the movie hundred thousand angels watch just before he goes to sleep. 100 thousand do me barbie dolls.
Yes, and have you ever examined a defeathered wing ? It is not pretty.
249 dick moron
“Most of those angels look like they are stuck in the “do me” interval.
Good one.
I think this is the movie hundred thousand angels watch just before he goes to sleep. 100 thousand do me barbie dolls.”
For that matter, I think Robert Burton is the main one stuck in the “do me” interval. Or, first I “do you,” then you “do me.”
So, I hear Juan left the Fellowship some time ago. He grew tired of being told what to do by people who only pretended to know him. He would often hear people say: “Juan must [insert something Juan must do]…”
He was told that he had to “give up his will to the Teacher” for example, and that he needed to “suffer more”. I hear he eventually just said, “I’m outta here! Bye!”
What is the purpose of the blog? Can somebody remind me?
http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult.htm.
Purposes, plural.
To inform. To be informed. To share new ways of thinking about a common experience. To have fun. To change the conversation.
To post links to interesting articles that may cast some light on the Fellowship of Friends.
To name a few. Why do you ask?
The most ironic “purpose of the blog” is that it’s literally a tool for waking up. One of many tools. Amazing isn’t it?
*
For many,
being in the Fellowship of Friends
is a little like Katamari…
*
another name,
But a more interesting question is: “What’s the ACTUAL purpose of the Fellowship of Friends? Can somebody remind me?”
Yes, we can.
Thanks Spock
I am surprised how often people get carried away by something and spend a lot of energy for example, on the youtube of the angels….
I am very impressed with http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult.htm.
Also the info PTSD and I wonder if many of us have faced this aspect. It is an incredible journey to go through and to heal from and to find yourself again….
I hope some how that we can help others and ourselves in this proces.
I was also strucked by the article of deprogramming and how acceptance and love were more helpful than bashing.
I thought this was a useful feedback for some of the people here on the blog. ( including myself).
252 is new
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255/Spock
“The primary aim of the Fellowship of Friends is to produce Divine Presence in its members. Members learn both the principles of awakening and practical methods to apply those principles in daily life. This spiritual work requires the instruction and guidance of an awakened teacher, a body of precise knowledge, the understanding and support of others working toward the same aim, and an environment in which to work.
In the Fellowship one comes to understand that awakening is a life-long process; as such, every detail of one’s life becomes an opportunity for work. The Fellowship not only supports this idea in theory, but also helps each member to develop habits that support awakening. A person learns to recognize throughout the day when he or she is more awake and less awake, and learns how to rise out of sleep and imagination and into moments of presence. The person also learns to recognize results, and to distinguish real results from imaginary ones. In the Fellowship each member learns to be honest with himself or herself. The simplicity and directness of the struggle to awaken precludes maintaining an attitude that is satisfied with anything less than real awakening.”
Source for the above:
http://www.beingpresent.org/index.php?toc=Fellowship-Work-on-Presence&
Regarding my post 254 ~
I posted the film because of the look on the people’s faces at the
end when they are finally freed from the giant rolling ball of crap.
*
*
Something just skewed the numbering of the posts.
In post 259 I was responding to Spock’s question in 256:
“What’s the ACTUAL purpose of the Fellowship of Friends?
Can somebody remind me?”
And I was commenting on the video I posted in 255.
*
Ah, thanks for enlightening me Golden Veil on the noble purpose of the Fellowship of Friends. Now that I know there’s a “body of precise knowledge” there, I think we can stop talking about this topic altogether and let it go. Most people have just plain old knowledge, not *precise* knowledge. I may re-up now that I know the knowledge is precise.
Outstanding name by the way. I didn’t really get it until now… So, the FOF is a “giant rolling ball of crap” covered by a golden veil? That paints quite the picture.
—-
another name: “I was also struck by the article of deprogramming and how acceptance and love were more helpful than bashing. I thought this was a useful feedback for some of the people here on the blog. ( including myself).”
Again, this topic comes up a lot. Is the blog “too negative” and so on. I strongly feel this is a false dichotomy. Both are needed — both loving care and hearing it straight. Both. Not just one, and not just the other. I feel lucky to have friends who absolutely pummeled me with direct feedback while also presenting their opinions with kindness and understanding. Both.
Maybe it’s just me. But what truly entered my thick skull most effectively was something more direct, not indirect. Even the word ‘cult’ seems too harsh to the sensitive ears of most recently exited students — let alone those who are still trapped. But personally, I absolutely needed to hear that word. I don’t think I’m much different than anyone else that way.
Remember: Talking in “code” about Robert’s shenanigans is what helps enable it all… never coming out and directly using the words “wrong” or “unethical” or expressions such as “violation of trust” — THAT is what makes it possible. But those words can hurt, and can hurt badly, if they’re coming from someone you respect and trust. None of us want to hurt our friends, and we certainly don’t want to be hurt by them. But sometimes there’s love in directness if a person is coming from the right place, and sometimes even when they’re just friggen tired of the constant, blatant denial in others and want to stand up and shout and say enough.
Dear Spock,
Love and directness and info and keep communicating….
It is clear to me too that a multiple approach is more helpful then one way of information/communication.
To recover from a PTSD love worked better then brute indirectness and “good advices”…..IMPO.
Enjoy the week end.
A.N.,
We had a lot of magical and romantic moments together in the FOF — nice music, fine art, good company. *Something* happened there and it wasn’t all bad, and it’s not necessary to abandon all of those positive feelings just because we now see that the guru lacks a conscience. We don’t need to disown all of our more positive memories just because the leader is a sociopath and a malignant narcissist with multiple personality disorder and delusions of grandeur. Germans didn’t stop listening to Beethoven after WWII simply because it reminded them of the concerts with Nazi brass in attendance. They kept listening. At first, it may have turned their stomachs, but eventually they just returned to how much they enjoyed Beethoven, and they increasingly realized that his music had nothing to do with Hitler. They realized that although the dictatorship included Beethoven and Bach and Mozart, the beauty of their music had nothing to do with a horrifying time in the country’s history.
Same thing with the Fellowship. Whatever wonderful memories we had, and whatever wonderful experiences we had, they came from us, from within us, and from each other.
*
261/Spock
Your question in 256 ~
“What’s the ACTUAL purpose of the Fellowship of Friends?
Can somebody remind me?”
was really asked only in a rhetorical sense, wasn’t it? It really
wasn’t necessary to respond. It did feel strange for me to, in 259.
lt felt like I was putting in an advertisement!
Also in 259 ~
I must say that I regretted my use of the word “crap” almost
immediately. I am sorry to all whom I may have offended.
By the way, Spock, what you said about the name that I chose,
Golden Veil, is correct. That was my intention; the Fellowship
of Friends has always arrayed itself with a golden veil.
*
I wouldn’t apologize for using four-letter words. Maybe such words would scare someone off on a first date. But I doubt if anyone cares here.
But let’s say I did care: then it’s time to stop taking offense at people. Big area of personal growth. And then a flip side is trying not to be overly concerned if someone else takes at me. Different facets of the same thing.
Profanity is avoided and frowned upon in the FOF because it dislodges that golden veil that you refer to — that sense of superiority you get from being in a cult.
I really, REALLY like what surelyujust wrote in 247. It relates to this topic.
Dear Spock
I am not sure about you, but the price of being in the fellowship was too high. Yes the German’s might got back too listen to their favorite composers and still the scars are there. For a few more generations for sure.
I do not know if “we” had great moments in the fof Spock. I had a lot of awkward moments and based on a dream/ lie. The Lie has revealed it self and the dream is gone. I live with it, with my scar and I do not resent it. Spock just to be clear it is my scar and time will heal it, although most scars stays visible especially for the one’s who felt the pain.
And dear Spock, what you do and feel is yours, what me or Golden Veil or anybody else “feels” and want to express is ours/mine. Happily this is a “free country and I appreciate been able to express myself without having others tell me what I could better do or not do. Been through that long enough in the cult.
I am for win/win situations and sharing and 50/50. No dependency preferable interdependency.
Pffff that felt good to express myself. Guess it is part of the “ongoing” healing processes in my life. Yahoooooooo.
I heard some police sirens by my house yesterday and I suddenly remembered the fof-lore that used to circulate regarding police/ambulance/fire sirens. It meant that C-Influence was calling out/revealing themselves.
If you were to question anyone in the FOF about that I’m sure any remaining members would say; “does it really matter if it’s C-Influence or not? Isn’t the important thing that you were more present when you heard the sirens?”
I also remember back with amusement how a member (currently a former member) explained that Burton had to consume so much semen because it contained an element that helped to nourish his astral body.
When you choose to believe these tales you start creating a whole new world for yourself based on fiction upon fiction. Since the FOF did not “operate in life” and the members believed they had found something that was extraordinary and unique to them alone, it was easy to start fabricating all sorts of lies.
I find it ironic and sad that Burton would claim that the “44 conscious beings” were on one hand the most caring and selfless beings in the universe, but on the other hand they only work with the 1500 current members.
It’s not hard to see why so much fantasy was taken as gospel truth. It starts from the top and trickles down. burton once said:
“There is a French emphasis for our civilization. Our school began in Lafayette”.
2010-
All that shit you mentioned RB said is a bunch of crap. No, fuck that- it is a steaming pile of fucking horseshit.
“ignore the opinions of others.
Let the rumors of your foolishness spread far and wide.
None of it matters in the least.
Busy yourself with the burning of all the furniture
in the house of the mind.
When the job is finished, dynamite the foundations
and bulldoze the lot.”
Guin Miller
Songs To Live By
Golden Veil, You seem to be completely unaware that my words and criticisms are directly squarely at myself as much as anyone… I was in the cult for a long, long time. You also seem to be assuming some sort of hurtful intent just because I’m not nodding in agreement, and because my words art pointed. But you might ask yourself why you’re taking offense, and what it is in my words that challenges you. Wanna try at least?
I’m an equal opportunity blog commentator. I see group think here, too. Lots of it, and not in just the shills who jump in occasionally. I still see it in me. It takes a long time to shed some of this bullshit.
That’s why I liked Surelyujest’s comments so much.
Sorry, Golden Veil, I meant to address that to “another name,” not to you.
Another note, another name:
Sometimes I sense disagreements are based upon not having a clue what the other person means, because we’re so focused on our own thoughts that it’s hard to listen. And that too, I’m directly squarely at myself as much as anyone.
Actually, members may not have a real choice, because they have been indoctrinated to have a phobia of the outside world. Induced phobias eliminate the psychological possibility of a person choosing to leave the group merely because he is unhappy or wants to do something else. That is, individuals in cults who have been taught that bad things will happen to them should they leave will be no more “free” to exit those environments than someone who is petrified of the water would be “free” to go swimming.
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/gurusandprisoners.asp
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The sun has come out on the California Coast!
The book Apostate has above referenced is very appropriate
reading for former Fellowship of Friends members, current
students and especially prospective students. The chapter
the above link leads to is amazing. I also read the chapter,
After the Ordeal.
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Golden Veil – ditto
From the article Apostate posted –
“Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard] controlled our thoughts to such an extent that you couldn’t think of leaving without thinking there was something wrong with you (Gerry Armstrong, in [Miller, 1987]).”
That sounds familiar.
I suspect that when I left the FOF many, many years ago, it was a silent part of myself based on a deep gut distrust for Robert Burton that somehow guided me out. In my thoughts however there were certainly ideas circulating that said I had been defeated by my lower self and false personality, and that my possibilities for development might be over. I remember it was frightening and that I dreamed about that fucking cult every night for what seemed like a long, long time.
*********
Apostate –
I have read and skimmed and read and skimmed and am about to read some more. That is a powerful piece of work. Thanks, and glad to hear you still have electricity after getting pounded by all that snow.
James,
Re: dreams
I’ve spoken to ‘ex-members’ (who I now consider true friends –
some good does come from my FOF days afterall), about the many years my dreams were haunted by a variety of images and intense ‘psychodramatic’ scenes involving extrapolated experiences connected to the FOF. These friends tell me that they’ve had more or less similar experiences with their dreams, that the dreams persisted for years and with similar sorts of thematic material. Occassionally but not very often anymore, I still experience a dream about it…. one theme that seems to reoccur involves my attempts to ‘infiltrate’ undetected, and as an unwanted interloper, there is always tension that surrounds getting caught. My opinion is that the dreams were (are) a way of ‘processing’ the experience and the fact that they persisted for so many years is an indication of how deeply that experience affected the psyche.
apostate –
“one theme that seems to reoccur involves my attempts to ‘infiltrate’ undetected, and as an unwanted interloper, there is always tension that surrounds getting caught.”
Interesting…….
That is precisely what almost all of those dreams of mine consisted of.
FOF Announces Recall of Another 475,000 ‘Angles’
OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — Adding to a growing list of bad news in recent weeks, Fellowship of Friends Corporation announced an unprecedented recall of another 475,000 angles over the weekend.
“We realize we’re falling short of the quality that our customers have come to expect from our angles during the past 40 years,” said FOF CEO Robert Burton, “and we’re working hard to resolve the situation.”
FOF is asking consumers to immediately return more than 200,000 copies of various publications — including Via Del Sol Journals, Renaissance Journals, Renaissance Vines, daily cards, numerous FOF sanctioned books, emails, and to try to forget tens of thousands of remarks during FOF dinner conversations. The FOF is also asking people to stop reading its website until more research can be done to resolve the problem and put the angles back on track toward quality and safety.
“Unfortunately, we’ve learned these ideas aren’t good for you,” said a cult industry analyst. “Feelings of calmness and bliss associated with the belief that one has found the one truth path to enlightenment are not all they’re cracked up to be. Instead, it all leads people to do things that aren’t very healthy, and to ignore and even encourage the same behavior in others. Not good. Not good at all.
“Until the problem is resolved, we highly recommend that people not read any FOF ideas stored on their bookshelves at home, not listen to any FOF ideas, and not share them. But since we realize that may be difficult, we’re suggesting a sensible workaround for now: At the very least, don’t believe them.”
The National Cult Safety Board (NCSB) continues to look into the matter.
yes I wonder how long it takes to get over the fof….some say 5 years, .some 10…..Tiring.
275-276 Apostate and James Mclemore
Reading your posts I just remembered my dream of last night. As in the most recent and not too frequent dreams of the FOF when I am “there” is usually dark and I am inside the property.
I do not know why I am there, perhaps I am looking for something.
I am aware of older “students” being around well dressed as usual. Women especially wear long gowns and it seems to they are always celebrating something (invisible).
I know I will not be kicked out because I am there, but nevertheless I feel I need to be careful, that is not my place to be there.
I try to go towards J. Chapm.n, because she never scared me, she looks tall as ever and almost expressionless. Meanwhile I am aware of other students who I would not want to have eye contact with like Judith Gra.e, and her former husband.
Their eyes would be not accepting of me in anyway.
End of Dream.
Like you Apostate I feel I infiltrated, why do I go back there in my dreams I do not know why, perhaps because my sense of belonging although sick was hurt? I see there is nothing for me there, and it’s usually dark and surreal.
Ahhhhhh Dreams
The last couple of dreams i can remember … one was the one i related a ways back , kind of a party and Girard came up and started telling me how it was and i ripped him a new asshole (verbally). The other was kind of unusual. I was in the covered stair area ( I’m sure it’s long gone) in an experience that had occured while i was there, only it was me just as i am with no filters. It was the Lodge, it was the fof and it was the people that were there but it was like ,just me, as i have always been, not as a member or infiltrater .. no judgement what so ever. It was dreamlike (in the dream), sweet and light.
I don’t think we ever get over that experience. I am in no way a psychologist or interpreter of dreams. If I eat a big sloppy burger and go right to sleep i might have a crap dream about the fof (dreams about the fof are very rare for me now) or something else.
Soldiers and others who have traumatic experiences tell of paralizing and recurring dreams for years and years and years.
If there is a positive of having been in the fof it is that it dug down deep into our psyche and stirred things up.
Another Name asked what is the purpose of the Blog.
I keep coming here to keep it going to warn people of the very negative nature of this organization.
Also when i read stories of people suffering the same things i went through for years and years it makes me want to do what little i can to share my experiences and the little bit of advice that i have. Actually, i don’t think i have any advice, people are too different but as we go deeper into the psyche we get closer.
Oh, here’s a bit of wisdom- It’s all You.
Hope the blog does not stall….
Main reason for coming here is to contribute to anti-cult self generated movement of real people like you and me who have been deceived or in more modern terms: brainwashed!
BEWARE OF FELLOWHIP OF FRIENDS -PATHWAY TO PRESENCE CULT!
I AM NOT KIDDING, BUT THE “TEACHER” OF THIS CULT ROBERT BURTON’S PRIMARY INTEREST IS YOUR DICK IF YOU ARE A MAN, AND YOUR MONEY, SERVICE, OBEDIENCE FROM EITHER MAN OR WOMAN.
BURTON IS A VAMPIRE!
Thanks for answering my question regarding the function of the blog.
I feel similar and would add: to heal and become more free and to carry my scar with pride.
Here follows and exert from
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/gurusandprisoners.asp
A great article which I am still digesting. I still have questions like what was it in me that ended up in a cult…
Guru-devotion involves both your thoughts and actions. The most important thing is to develop the total conviction that your Guru is a Buddha…. If you doubt your Guru’s competence and ability to guide you, your practices will be extremely unstable and you will be unable to make any concrete progress….
If your Guru acts in a seemingly unenlightened manner and you feel it would be hypocritical to think him a Buddha, you should remember that your own opinions are unreliable and the apparent faults you see may only be a reflection of your own deluded state of mind. Also you should think that if your Guru acted in a completely perfect manner, he would be inaccessible and you would be unable to relate to him. It is therefore out of your Guru’s great compassion that he may show apparent flaws. This is part of his use of skillful means in order for him to be able to teach you. He is mirroring your own faults (Beru Kyhentze Rinpoche, in [Berzin, 1978]; italics added).
Once a person has been identified [in India] as a saint, a holy man, nothing he does or does not do can change his title, unless he is caught in flagrante, and several times, engaged in disastrous things like sex or forbidden drink. But even in such a case, once his charisma is firmly established, there is a dialectic out of such dilemma: the emancipated person is not bound by social rules, and there is enough scripture to support it (Bharati, 1976).
All of that, of course, is simply manipulative, power-preserving nonsense, presented in the guise of spirituality. And it all, as we have seen, exists just as surely in the traditional, agrarian East as in the postmodern West, by its own admission.
The indefensibly stupid notion that the “real difficulty of ‘the strange case of Adi Da’ is that the guru principle is neither understood nor accepted by our culture” is clearly part of the same dangerous apologetic. For, it is again obvious that whenever “God” is involved, there are no checks and balances: “God” can always do whatever he wants, regardless of the surrounding culture or tradition.
In the face of such traditional instruction, points such as the following, from the Dalai Lama no less, ring utterly hollow:
Part of the blame lies with the student, because too much obedience, devotion, and blind acceptance spoils a teacher…. Part also lies with the spiritual master because he lacks the integrity to be immune to that kind of vulnerability (in Butler, 1990).
Of course, by parity of argument, one would equally place “part of the blame” on abused women for giving up their power to men, or ridiculously regard too-obedient children as “spoiling” their parents, etc.
Much more sensibly:
The guru system, the Zen Master system and every other variation on that theme is just as horrible and destructive to folks with amber skin and almond shaped eyes as it is to folks with white skin and blue eyes. It didn’t work two thousand years ago in Rishikesh, India any better than it works right now in Racine, Wisconsin (Warner, 2004).
Charaka, the first-century court physician whose writings help form the basis of ancient Indian medicine, wrote that a student was free to ignore a guru’s orders if they jeopardized health or were against the law. One suspects, though, that it would have been difficult for a student so trained in obedience to decide when the time for rebellion had come (Brent, 1972).
O and about dreams?
I had one dream more then a year ago. I went to a meeting with Robert and tried to be inconspicuously. Students saw me but did not respond or pay attention to me. Mostly there were younger people. When the meeting was 1/2 way done everybody stood up and Robert started to rumble and talking more nonsense. 911 was called and when the paramedics came I helped him to load up Robert. One of the paramedics showed signs of recognition towards me. My response. Sssush, get him (Robert) out of here. Somehow this dream gave me hope. No dreams since then about Robert.
“One cannot always tell what it is that keeps us shut in, confines us, seems to bury us, but still one feels certain barriers, certain gates, certain walls. Is all this imagination, fantasy? I do not think so. And then one asks: My God! Is it for long, is it forever, is it for eternity? Do you know what frees one from this captivity? It is very deep serious affection. Being friends, being brothers, love, that is what opens the prison by supreme power, by some magic force.”
– Vincent van Gogh, letter to his brother, July 1880
… from the book “Open” (Andre Agassi)
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