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Fellowship Of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion – Part 88 January 1, 2010

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussionblog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. no goat - January 1, 2010

It’s amazing to read these entries. Ames – I enjoy your posts and so many others too. I’m a low-key guy and can’t possibly keep up with the action, but I appreciate much that goes on here. Being simple, I want to get down to the purpose of this blog. Could we have a mission statement?

Would it be fair to say that we are creating an alternate (and truthful) view of the FOF? We provide a view that perspective students might chance upon that would cause them to hesitate? That we provide an alternate “fellowship” experience to those who are currently in but wavering?

2. Someone - January 1, 2010

(previous page) 279. X-ray

What you wrote and the way you wrote it is exactly what I am talking about when I refer to obsession. You become more soaked in a shadow called FOF instead of doing something positive and constructive for yourself.

If you keep on wasting your time and energy here it will become habitual and perpetuate for a long time. You will gain nothing besides recycling the same food again and again.

I am not the issue here and your bluntness does not hurt me. Just think about it neutrally and see that you are wasting your time.

As for the efficiency of this blog:

I do not think there will be any lawsuit. If by now after four years none of those who have direct evidences against RB has come forward and sued, it is most unlikely that anyone will ever do it. Actually I do not know and do not understand why they haven’t sued, yet that is a fact.

This discussion is a drop in the WEB Sea. It may have prevented some people from joining the FOF and that is very good. Still there is more than enough written material against the FOF in this blog and it is here to stay for a long time. From that respect the blog has done a great job. It has accumulated an enormous amount of information about the true nature of the FOF.

Keeping on doing this ‘more of the same’ stuff has become pointless. Now this blog is a virtual prison for 20-30 angry and frustrated people and for about 100 more occasional participants. What’s the point?

LET GO

3. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 1, 2010

87/292. Daily Cardiac

‘I would offer one example of a fiction, and a glaring one at that.

This regards a comment by A.T. some time ago. A.T. commented that she was seated next to RB at a Salon dinner and detected the smell of semen on his breath as he leaned over to speak to her. She further stated that he must have performed fellatio on a student immediately before entering the Salon.

This posting was one of the most lauded and praised comments at the time and actually it is one of the easiest to expose as being bogus in nature. The reason it is so transparently fictitious is because in order for it to be true laws of physics would have to be broken.

First of all semen is not toxic or a waste matter and hence gives off no strong odor. In fact it contains half of the Life Force and as such is the most refined fluid in the human organism. It contains no airborne aromatic properties, unlike many herbs or other plants/flowers, minerals, compounds.

If an open container of semen would have been placed on the dining table it could not have beeen easily detected by smell, if at all. But the real truth can be drawn from the fact that semen is immediately broken down by acids and enzymes found in saliva and any traces of it would have been dissolved within a few seconds.

Yet A. T. would have us believe that after every one was seated at the table and after a 15 minute concert was performed and the time it took for the food to arrive (which does produce strong aromas) and a toast proposed, and somewhat later, probably after a few bites of food were taken, as Robert leaned over and spoke to A she was taken aback with the undeniable smell of semen on his breath.

This is just one fiction, made evident by laws of physics. Many other examples are just as evident because they bypass laws of reason and probability, but those laws being more abstract are more easily dismissed by an unreasoned mind.’

Once again, DC, you prove to be moronic and/or lack experience.

A quick Google came up with this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen
Where it states, among other things:

‘The seminal plasma provides a nutritive and protective medium for the spermatozoa during their journey through the female reproductive tract. The normal environment of the vagina is a hostile one for sperm cells, as it is very acidic (from the native microflora producing lactic acid), viscous, and patrolled by immune cells. The components in the seminal plasma attempt to compensate for this hostile environment. Basic amines such as putrescine, spermine, spermidine and cadaverine are responsible for the smell and flavor of semen. These alkaline bases counteract the acidic environment of the vaginal canal, and protect DNA inside the sperm from acidic denaturation.

Then following a leading link or two, in reference:

‘Putrescine (sometimes spelled putrescin) is an organic chemical compound NH2(CH2)4NH2 (1,4-diaminobutane or butanediamine). It is related to cadaverine; both are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms and both are toxic in large doses. The two compounds are largely responsible for the foul odor of putrefying flesh, but also contribute to the odor of such processes as bad breath and bacterial vaginosis. They are also found in semen and some microalgae, together with related molecules like spermine and spermidine.’

Furthermore, besides its possible deSTINKtive smell, semen can smell (and taste) very different as a result of the biochemistry of the person it comes from and as a result of things that they consume.

Also, people can be very very different in their olfactory sensitivities. You, DC, being a numbskull, it is therfore presumed that your ability to smell is similarly numb. But, I could be wrong on that.

Since you are, supposedly, big on scientific stuff, here is another hypothesis: Skunks cannot smell their own unpleasant odor. They have a blind spot, if you will. Or, they actually do not perceive it as a bad smell. Perhaps you smell so much semen, or from so much semen, that it is olfactorily invisible to YOU.

Then there is the area of pheromones. Can people smell them? Are pheromones present in semen? Hmmm?

But, based on your posting, it shows that you lack the experience of getting ‘close enough,’ as A.T. did, to smell anything anyway! And, it used to be (I don’t know how it is now) that the subject individual wore a specific, very strong smelling, perfume that could be experienced from 10 or more feet away – primarily as a masking agent IMHO. But, when you got up close and personal, it was a whole different story. You, apparently, have not spent a lot of time around him or have lost your sense of smell. If the latter is the case, consider: Sense of smell loss is a leading indicator of age-related mental decline. Here’s just one citation of many:

‘ScienceDaily (Mar. 12, 2004) — Philadelphia, PA — Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine have linked smell loss in mice with excessive levels of a key protein associated with Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s disease. Smell loss is well documented as one of the early and first clinical signs of such diseases. If smell function declines as the levels of this protein increase in brain regions associated with smelling, the research could validate the use of smell tests for diagnosing Alzheimer’s disease. . .

“The loss of smell – or olfactory dysfunction – has been known for more than a decade as an early sign of several neurodegenerative diseases, but we have never been able to link it to a pathological entity that is measurable over time,” said Richard Doty, PhD, Professor and Director of Penn’s Smell and Taste Center, who is also the team leader of the study. . .’

And, yes, as 87/293. 2010 states, human pubic areas can have deSTINKtive smells.

But, of course, you will argue, that none of this can be proven with words or postings to this blog; so, why should anyone asscribe value to anything YOU post here?

4. Spock - January 1, 2010

For those who haven’t noticed it yet, here’s the film they don’t want you to see…

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5861131

5. you gotta be kidding me - January 1, 2010

“First of all semen is not toxic or a waste matter and hence gives off no strong odor. In fact it contains half of the Life Force and as such is the most refined fluid in the human organism. It contains no airborne aromatic properties, unlike many herbs or other plants/flowers, minerals, compounds.”

DC, I have to wonder if you have ever had sex, or rather have ever had sex that was any fun, or maybe you’re British? Of course semen has a smell, and taste, that changes with a persons health or what they have eaten, and after you’ve given someone a blow job it’s possible to have semen burps and yes, semen breath.

Well, now we know what DC’s REAL problem is, he needs a blow job, badly. And if he is a she, she needs to be in love with someone enough to be able to give a blow job and all will be solved!

6. Ames Gilbert - January 1, 2010

DC, what an idiot you are! My semen smells. My wife thinks my semen smells. Before that, my girlfriends said my semen smells. No one has actually come out and said that it is unpleasant, but that is not the issue. It smells. But hey, maybe it is just me? No, I lived in a boarding school environment for five years, between the ages of thirteen and eighteen, in dormitories full of horny male teenagers, the majority of whom masturbated nightly. I can categorically say, semen smells. And the smell varies somewhat from person to person. The smell of a couple of fellow inmates’ semen was particularly strong and unpleasant. Many of my fellows made comments about that smell at the time, so there was general agreement. Not only that, but smegma smells, and it smells awful unless the penis is carefully cleaned daily.
DC, you have just spent a large chunk of your post proving that you are either an idiot, or your organ of smell has atrophied or is different from most other people’s. If the last, then try googling. Without doing primary research, I’d bet that most people (and certainly most women) can detect the smell of semen.

Hey, Someone, since you are so concerned, I’m going to try an experiment to address your concerns. I will give up both reading and posting to the blog for a month. Then I’ll report back to you (after Feb 1st, if I can remember) about withdrawal symptoms, nightmares, tics, involuntary muscle spasms, mental constipation, or anything else I observe and note during that period. The hypothesis: if I’m ‘obsessed’ or ‘addicted’, there should be some reaction if I make a sudden, ‘cold–turkey’ withdrawal, right?

No goat, I think you’ve got it right. Everyone has a different slant, but I think the average is “put out an alternative point of view” to the FoF propaganda, internal and external.

Happy New Year and best wishes to you all, ‘in’ or ‘out’.

7. Spock - January 1, 2010

Someone wrote: “Keeping on doing this ‘more of the same’ stuff has become pointless. Now this blog is a virtual prison for 20-30 angry and frustrated people and for about 100 more occasional participants. What’s the point? LET GO.”

If you’re concerned about letting go, and if you feel “letting go” means not posting to a blog that brings light on Burton’s agenda, then that’s completely your prerogative. Then let go, and move on. But with post after post with the same theme, you seem to have a lot of trouble directing your own words toward the person who matters most… yourself.

Why not look at it like this? “Persistently trying to respond to people on the blog has become pointless. Now this blog has become a prison for me, and for other Burton defenders. What’s the point? We should LET GO.”

But let’s be real. You haven’t “left the school,” and if you have, you have one big foot still in the door and ready to return. Sure, getting an ear-full of persistent dissent is unpleasant for someone who idolizes — or once idolized — Robert Burton, and for someone who likes to view the FOF as a wonderful experience that demonstrates “one’s” superiority over the rest of those sorry humans out there — sort of like Hitler’s Germany felt superior, but without the blitzkrieg and huge army. Trying to “let go” is the recurrent theme by everyone trying to get this to just stop. Please just stop. Stop! Let go! I can’t stand it anymore! Who is truly the frustrated one?

But this is what you would call “formatory”. It’s either/or thinking. You either let go and stop talking about the Fellowship of Friends, or you’re in “prison” because you continue to talk about them. Not sure why it became impossible to do both… “move on” AND occasionally present the dissenting views that were/are never allowed in the FOF.

It’s funny you would criticize people for repeating themselves. Repetition — and without an ounce of dissent — is the formula that works so well for Burton, and for Hitler.

But HERE is dissent. Damn, it’s beginning to spoil things. And hey, you know what’s great about this Someone? There’s no charge. People aren’t spending a dime to post here. No money is going to support one of Burton’s trips to the Amalfi coast with his harem of young men. Not one dime is being contributed to his wardrobe collection. Not one dime is leading to another emotionally distraught 26 year old who believed the Fellowship was about receiving guidance and spiritual support.

Frustrated? Dissent is healthy, and healing, and as you admit yourself above, very effective. Every single page, every repetition, every reiteration, is helping someone to think more clearly about the Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence / Robert Burton.

No wonder you, and Burton, and others who still have a soft spot in their hearts for Burtons, want people to “move on” and “let go.”

8. WhaleRider - January 1, 2010

Renaissance Winery “Elevates” Bar

Yuba County (URP!)- In a shocking and somewhat distasteful move, a small Northern Californian winery run under the looming shadow of the Fellowship of Friends, Inc., a pseudo-religious corporation, has announced a new style of wine, a full-bodied, “heady” red containing…human semen.

One spokesfollower named Daniela Cardiac was quoted as saying, “In fact it (semen) contains half of the Life Force and as such is the most refined fluid in the human organism. Our leader’s philosophy is based on the belief that mixed with wine it elevates the drinker’s state for a more spiritual experience.”

She went on to say this about the taste and smell, “If an open container of semen would have been placed on the dining table it could not have been easily detected by smell, if at all. But the real truth can be drawn from the fact that semen is immediately broken down by acids and enzymes found in saliva and any traces of it would have been dissolved within a few seconds.” It was unclear whether she spoke from her direct experience or not.

One sex manual suggests that the smell of semen is an aphrodisiac, but Cardiac dismissed the ploy of mixing it with the wine for a more potent effect.

When asked who in their right mind would drink the stuff, she had this to say, ‘It’s a spiritual matter and can only be known on an earthly plane by those who rise up to a state of cognition where spiritual matters can be distinguished and separated from earthly matters. Drinking lots of wine helps.”

Although the Renaissance Vintner was unavailable for comment, sources close to the Fellowship claim that only through the self-less efforts of the group’s leader, Robert E. Burton, have they cultivated a male population capable of keeping up with production needs.

Reportedly the Fellowship has had to import young men from as far away as Russia, where men are known for producing copious amounts of sweet-smelling semen from all the highly refined carbohydrates they traditionally consume in Russian pastries.

9. dick moron - January 1, 2010

Say no to the Princess. The Directors Cut

10. X-ray - January 1, 2010

2. Someone – January 1, 2010

(previous page) 279. X-ray

Someone,
You are a real idiot, and I begin to think that you are actually more stupid than DC.
That’s all I want to tell to you, because to tell you more, would be a real waist of time.

11. dick moron - January 1, 2010

For Daily Cardiac. Happy New Year HAL!

12. another name - January 2, 2010

DC…

“But in any event one day we will all know everything there is to know about RB and FoF.”

If you don’ t know him by noooooooow, you will never, never, never know him, ooooooooooeeeehoool (joking)

If you want to know more about Robert, read Alice Miller, “For your own good”, finally one person figured out what was wrong with Hitler and his ancestry. Very interesting. This will give you a lot of insides in Robert’s upbringing and his motives.

For me, the mission of this blog could be to stop the abuse Robert and to stop the abuse by his followers, to stop the abuse of others in the name of consciousness. To stop the misinformation of being in a school, in a tradition of the Fourth way.

If you study up on abuse, abused people,abuse other “depended” people again. It can become a chain reaction.

Many Robert’s boys emotional mistreat their children. Left their children behind as Robert was always more important.

Go and see the movie the Avatar to witness values and how people could relate to each other and be true to themselves. You might want the see it a few times to get the subtleties in the relationships of “the People”.

When I saw the Avatar a few times I realized that one reason I had to join the Pathway to presence/ the fellowship of friends is that I had a hope, a wish for a group of people who were sincere and tried to get to a better way of living then I was used too.

Ouch….

13. Daily Cardiac - January 2, 2010

WYLTK & Ames – 3 & 5:

As long as both of you are going to attempt to refute #87 – 292 you should try to actually read what was said and make a further attempt to understand what was said before you jump in.

Nancy is correct Ames, your semen does smell and so it is with all males. I did not say semen does not smell. I said the smell is not of an airborne type; such as perfume or garlic for instance. I also said considering the logistics of what A T wrote it’s extremely unlikely, next to impossible, that she would have detected any trace by smell of semen.

The main reason for that, as was stated, is that semen immediately starts to break down once it is ingested due to natural acids and enzymes found in our mouth cavity and saliva.

You did not read what was written but what you wanted to be written. This is exactly how fiction propagates on the blog.

14. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 2, 2010

D.C., I reiterate, and these are not my words, they are verbatim from Wikipedia:

‘The seminal plasma provides a nutritive and protective medium for the spermatozoa during their journey through the female reproductive tract. The normal environment of the vagina is a hostile one for sperm cells, as it is very acidic (from the native microflora producing lactic acid), viscous, and patrolled by immune cells. The components in the seminal plasma attempt to compensate for this hostile environment. Basic amines such as putrescine, spermine, spermidine and cadaverine are responsible for the smell and flavor of semen. These alkaline bases counteract the acidic environment of the vaginal canal, and protect DNA inside the sperm from acidic denaturation.’

‘Putrescine (sometimes spelled putrescin) is an organic chemical compound NH2(CH2)4NH2 (1,4-diaminobutane or butanediamine). It is related to cadaverine; both are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms and both are toxic in large doses. The two compounds are largely responsible for the foul odor of putrefying flesh, but also contribute to the odor of such processes as bad breath and bacterial vaginosis. They are also found in semen and some microalgae, together with related molecules like spermine and spermidine.’

I emphasize: ‘also contribute to the odor of such processes as bad breath and bacterial vaginosis.’

Do you know what that means and what they smell like? Yes, these may not be the actual smell of the semen but come from the process of the decomposition and influence on biological systems. Or, to quote you directly: ‘semen immediately starts to break down once it is ingested due to natural acids and enzymes found in our mouth cavity and saliva.’

You are an infantile moron. I doubt you can read and understand the above, nor have the experience directly that goes with this territory. Try reading it again and see how it directly applies to your subject.

15. fofblogmoderator - January 2, 2010

#5 is new

16. another name - January 2, 2010

DC writes “The main reason for that, as was stated, is that semen immediately starts to break down once it is ingested due to natural acids and enzymes found in our mouth cavity and saliva.”

DC please read again what you write. Saliva only breaks done the carbohydrates in your food/semen. The acids are in your stomach who will start the process of breaking done the peptides ( proteins)

Protein (semen is protein rich, starts it breaking down process in the stomach.) If you dare to write things with such a certainty based on such misinformation you are fooling not only others. You are FOOLING yourself DC. Can you see this? Are you trying to find many reasons to keep your dream of the fellowship/ Pathway to presence this intact? What is your need behind this strategy? All the information about the fellowship/ pathway of presence is available, are you like the people and the emperor in fairy tale The emperor without clothes? Is it not time to become the boy and see that he has no clothes on?

To me it sounds like it is time to find help as when your brain will discover this paradox in thinking you know certain things and realizing you do not, you might flip/ get psychotic and will need some help.

O, have you not admitted before to a mental health facility?

Take well care….rough roads to travel.

17. Just the Facts Ma'am - January 2, 2010

88#2. Someone:
‘This discussion is a drop in the WEB Sea. It may have prevented some people from joining the FOF and that is very good. Still there is more than enough written material against the FOF in this blog and it is here to stay for a long time. From that respect the blog has done a great job. It has accumulated an enormous amount of information about the true nature of the FOF.’

Much of what you say is accurate. However:

Don’t count on: ‘it is here to stay for a long time.’ The Fellowship of Friends, Pathway to Presence, is relentless and persistent at expunging all critical materials from cyberspace. (Witness the big fight there was over the Wikipedia information that happened.)

Besides, the internet is not like radio and television broadcasts, that once created and transmitted, are energy; electromagnetic propagations. And, should they escape from the Earth’s magnetic field and atmosphere, and they do, they go out into the universe and go on forever. The internet is a closed system and must be maintained. The stuff is stored somewhere.

Stella Wirk:
http://www.wirk.net/stelport.html
was one of the earliest, if not the earliest, users of the internet to provide information critical of Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends, which at one time was extensive (not as extensive as the blog). They (Stella and Harold Wirk) were subjected to all manner of legal actions (mostly frivolous), forcing them into financial duress and to affect removal of offending materials. (Why do you think that D_v_d Spr_ngf__ld is a SLAPP (frivolous) Suit legal expert? So, the lawyers know exactly what they can and cannot get away with. (Don’t let his mild manner Clark Kent act fool you.))

Cyberspace, by its very nature, is impermanent. It must be maintained constantly for at least two reasons: One is that the materials will get buried under burgeoning new stuff. And, the other is: freshly generated material typically will produce better search engine rankings (easier to find).

Many links to materials mentioned in this blog, since 16April2006, when it began, are already invalid. Some new material does get created. But, the Greater Fellowship website is private; you have to join and login – not searchable from without. This is one of the main dynamic, constantly evolving, public forums and it has a life of its own. And, like most living organisms, there are roles and responsibilities that must be fulfilled, even if they are unpleasant. The asshole is one of them and that is why there is always one of them around.

18. ton - January 2, 2010

come on people, what are we talking about? whether someone can smell semen or not?!! if A.T. says she smelled semen on the “conscious bob” i believe her…. why should that be in dispute? my wife says it smells like freshly mowed grass…. but i digress here to prove a point, which is that DC has successfully sidetracked and diverted the conversation again.

the point here is, and it’s a point that even DC does not dispute, the issue is that burton swallows cum by the bucket load, he loves the stuff, it would seem he has an insatiable appetite for semen…. that’s not in dispute. the real issue is that the “conscious bob” uses deception and subterfuge to lure the naive and unsuspecting into his web in order to (among other things) feed an insatiable appetite for cum. the co-issue here is that an organization of his followers (the FOF), in effect condones and protects him while it enables the process of luring the unfortunates into the web through deception and manipulation.

arguing over whether or not semen has a smell?!? anyone with a properly functioning olfactory organ can sense the smell of semen, that’s not the point….

and yet DC, says “the smell is not of an airborne type…” this shows the absolutely absurd “reasoning” typical of this troll. any 5th grade child can tell you that the medium of a “smell” is in fact AIR… if a “smell” is not “airborne” then it is not a “smell.” it just goes to show how far DC’s warped “logic” veers and careens from any semblance of reality… whether this veering from reality is intentional as is the case with trolling, or as so many have claimed, DC is simply a moron, or DC’s “reason” is damaged by belief in burtonism… whatever the case may be it makes little difference, the effect here is the same in any case.

17 Just the Facts Ma’am
“And, like most living organisms, there are roles and responsibilities that must be fulfilled, even if they are unpleasant. The asshole is one of them and that is why there is always one of them around.”

re: “the asshole” — DC is a troll and advice regarding trolls is “do not feed the trolls” abbreviated as “DNFT” or “DFTT.” my approach is that i no longer address DC directly as if she were capable or worthy of person-hood, but i might occasionally point out the glaring inconsistencies in her process of rationalization.

“In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

“DFTT.” While many seasoned veterans of online communities consider this advice useless, because in a community of any size, someone will react to the troll’s posts, others still consider it to be the only effective method for dealing with trolls. Not fanning the fire will, at the very least, not make the situation worse….”

but then some folks enjoy the heat that comes from a fire…

19. Daily Cardiac - January 2, 2010

Spock & Ames – Re: Someone’s suggestions to “Let Go”

The irony is not lost that I would be explaining to ex members the motivations of other ex members.

I think you are being a little paranoid and reading between the lines regarding Someone’s recent comments.

My understanding is that Someone is being up front and is not playing any games with you but clearly feels some others are actually being counter productive to themselves and the blog with all the radical statements being repeated over and over again.

I have no reason to doubt Someone’s motives; he or she is not defending RB or the FoF and I believe is being sincere about what they write.

I have said on occasion that the blog actually is an aid to the FoF because of its mean spirited and negative content and if anything would make the FoF appealing to someone sincerely looking for a school and only keep out those who would not last long if they were to join.

Ex members will read this and see it as some kind of reverse psychological ploy on my part to get people to change or tone down but it is not that.

As a current member it is in my best interests to have the blog continue on just as it is. Ordinarily that would mean I’d not say anything to change the status quo. The only reason for mentioning this is first or all because I see it as true and second I don’t think most of the regulars on the blog can change their ways even if they were to believe I am saying exactly what is in their best interests (and them believing that is indeed remote.)

I believe Someone is being sincere and is offering the advice they feel would be of help to the persons they are addressing. I also believe Someone understands saying the same things over and over only obscures the blogs “Mission.”

Most people do not consider certain tendencies all humans have. Often people, when they are identified with their position and feel they have a lot at stake in getting across their point of view, will usually overstate the point and become their own denying force. In other words; people just don’t know when enough is enough.

The attorneys for the policemen charged with brutality in the Rodney King trial actually showed the jury the video over 300 times of King being Brutally assaulted by the officers. Their motive was to show them the evidence so much that they would be desensitized simply through the repetition.

The tactic worked and the officers were acquitted in spite of the damning visual evidence. Had they seen the video only a few times, it was concluded by experts, the jury would have been outraged at what was on the tape and would have likely convicted the men.

So, what I think is happening is that Someone, aside from offering advice based on what works for him or her, also feels the repetition is obscuring the content.

On a certain level Someone is correct in thinking that. Personally I don’t believe it matters much one way or another because the FoF is not what ex members describe here and the play is written anyway; if it’s the fate of the FoF to be brought down by the blog it will be and if it’s not the fate nothing said here or anywhere else by ex members will matter in the least.

To Someone: There have been other moderate ex members who have given similar advice on the blog only to be run off by the blog bullies. I admire your resolve in continuing to post. My only advice to you, knowing you have not asked for any, is to have as your inner motivation saying what you feel in your heart as truth.

If you lose sight of that and actually think your words will penetrate and enlighten the radical element here you will eventually become discouraged and leave before your time. I address some people directly but my aim is not to convince them of my beliefs but only to say what I feel might be helpful to anyone out there following along. If that also includes the ones I’m addressing so be it. But I have no expectations about it.

I intend to follow my own advice and I see my hiatus from the blog fast approaching. I’ve already said what I feel needed to be said in order to tell my story, express my reality and experiences as regards the FoF and RB. If I say more than is needed I also run the risk of obscuring that reality.

20. WhaleRider - January 2, 2010

FDA Recalls Troll Food, Issues DFTT Warning

Washington (URP!)-In an unprecedented move the FDA has issued a total recall of all troll food and issued a stern DFTT public safety warning to discontinue feeding trolls no matter how hungry or needy they may seem.

Spokesperson William (“Billy”) G. Gruff made the announcement today that “suspected contaminates found in troll food contains lead and arsenic, both of which can cause distracting brain damage and anger in those who handle troll food.”

Apparently trolls, however, are so brain damaged that the poisonous effects of the lead and arsenic they unconsciously crave doesn’t seem to affect their warped thinking one way or another and “need to learn to feed on wholesome food and not other people’s pity for them,” Gruff said. “It’s the same with pigeons. Even though it’s against the law to feed them too, some people cave in and still feed them, ignoring the fact that feeding them causes them to breed and spread their unhealthy germs and viral thoughts.”

“It’s best to ignore them,” Gruff want on to say. “If they bother you just yell at them or make fun of them and that will scare them off.”

21. face - January 2, 2010

19. Daily Cardiac

“I intend to follow my own advice and I see my hiatus from the blog fast approaching.”

Yes, please, make it very fast. Maybe you and your “own advise” can get together with a couple of Baccarat wine goblets for a little semen tasting.
Cheers!

22. Golden Veil - January 2, 2010

*

19. Daily Cardiac

“…they would be desensitized simply through the repetition.”

Dear Fellowship of Friends blog readers and contributors,

Indeed! The desensitized syndrome appears to be prevalent in the

Fellowship of Friends; that is, ‘present’ students are “desensitized

simply through the repetition” of information given such as, “Well,

our Teacher is a Goddess in a man’s body, and guided by Influence

C, he frequently has uniquely fetishized sex orgies with men,

preferably heterosexual men.” Said with a smile while elegantly

dressed, a cup of english tea in hand in a Sevres porcelain cup,

or a crystal goblet of Da Vinci Non Vintage Petite Syrah.

Current member blogger Daily Cardiac, is a prime example of not

only a deeply desensitized Fellowship of Friends student, but also a

perpetrator of the desensitization technique, right here on the blog.

*

23. brucelevy - January 2, 2010

22. Golden Veil

And the ultimate FOF buffoon.

24. brucelevy - January 2, 2010

RB doesn’t deserve the real thing. Kween, for the queen.

25. brucelevy - January 2, 2010

26. Yesri Baba - January 2, 2010

“come on people, what are we talking about? whether someone can smell semen or not?!!”

Yeah, WTF. Everyone knows that if an open container of semen was placed on the dining table Butthole Bob would guzzle it and wash it down with some cock sucking.

27. Daily Cardiac - January 2, 2010

ton – 18:

“the point here is, and it’s a point that even DC does not dispute, the issue is that burton swallows cum by the bucket load, he loves the stuff, it would seem he has an insatiable appetite for semen…”

I don’t know how you arrived at that interpretation. I am commenting on the lack of merit of AT’s story. If you think my conclusions are so illogical why do you find cause to invent inferences that are not there?

“and yet DC, says “the smell is not of an airborne type…” this shows the absolutely absurd “reasoning” typical of this troll. any 5th grade child can tell you that the medium of a “smell” is in fact AIR… if a “smell” is not “airborne” then it is not a “smell.” it just goes to show how far DC’s warped “logic” veers and careens from any semblance of reality…

One can enter a large room and smell a flower arrangement from 20 feet away, or detect perfume on someone who walks by. Those substances have properties that allow their fragrance to travel or permeate through space (air) and over distances.

I don’t think that’s possible with semen; one would have to be within inches to detect it by smell. Detecting it on someone’s breath after it dissolves and mixes with other substances such as wine or food is next to impossible.

Common logic suggests that if someone was engaged in the type of activities A T categorizes they would just brush their teeth before entering a room, or take a mint or two?

A T is a former actress and she knows what makes good drama. Fantasies appear to be her specialty.

28. Silentpurr - January 2, 2010

Daily Cardiac
I know that you must be sincere in your posts and that you possess a wickedly droll sense of humor. The visuals that you create and recreate are hilarious and I thank you for them. My only question is: should we imagine the Rosesnthal or the Meissen to serve as the dining table’s “open container”?

29. dick moron - January 3, 2010

28. Silentpurr

That expensive china was sold long ago. The semen would be served in a Pottery Barn gravy boat.

30. Someone - January 3, 2010

19. Daily Cardiac

“As a current member it is in my best interests to have the blog continue on just as it is.”

That is a lie and you know it. You and the FOF would be glad if this blog ceases to function. You hitchhiked my messages here because you thought it might serve your aims. For that you even spared me some complements. That is of course another lie.

It is obvious that neither you nor anyone else in the FOF care about the wellness of any ex-member. The big difference between you and me is that you might be saying some right things, but from the wrong reasons. Wrong = lying and deceiving.

I already wrote here a short message telling that you are not an honest person. An honest person would not do what you are doing.

Unfortunately many ex-members are still falling into your trap.

31. dick moron - January 3, 2010

Daily Cardiac. The next Einstein explains it all…

32. paul g - January 3, 2010

19. Daily Cardiac
“As a current member it is in my best interests to have the blog continue on just as it is.”

It’s your current level of being to display a self-aggrandizing ego, which thrives in its inner life from opposition from something not quite up to FOF standard. The antithesis of FOF standards, in fact.

What part of your machine/lower self is intent on wasting it’s time and energy with this dialogue? Couldn’t you better use your time remembering yourself and practicing the sequence? In what sense do your serve the school by constantly making a twat out of yourself, and by implication, the pitiful reasoning of the rest of your divine school?

Your continuing addiction to this blog is evidence of a need for satisfaction not found in any other area of your life. It’s not possible for you to have a debate which is in any way honest with anyone your share dogmatic conceit with. Intellectually, however, you have crystalized in the FOF, and will remain there, trapped, like a budgie in a mirror, imagining itself a noble eagle, without the spunk to really fly.

33. brucelevy - January 3, 2010

27. Daily Cardiac

Hey douche bag, I thought you were leaving. You are unfuckingbelievable. Every time I think you couldn’t possibly outdo yourself with the dog shit you spout, you do. I don’t think there could possibly be a bigger asshole in the FOF than you are. If I wish you anything, it’s that one day you are able to see yourself as others see you, and all the suffering that would include.But you won;t, because you’re an ignorant sociopath. Unfortunately I don’t have words to express what a pathetic loser you are. You’re impervious to your own stink. That’s why you shouldn’t be speaking about the intrinsic odors of bodily fluids. You are completely cut off from reality. You are your own punishment.

34. X-ray - January 3, 2010
35. hundredthousandangels - January 3, 2010

36. The FOFion - January 3, 2010

Hundreds More Join the Fellowship of Friends After Reading the ‘Mean Spirited’ Blog

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — Another huge wave of former Life People joined the Fellowship of Friends during the last quarter of 2009, again raising speculation that telling people what is actually happening in the cult simply leads to a growth in membership.

“I have said on occasion that the blog actually is an aid to the FoF because of its mean spirited and negative content,” said Fellowship spokesperson Daily Cardiac. “If anything, the blog would make the FoF appealing to someone sincerely looking for a school and only keep out those who would not last long if they were to join.”

Several former Life People granted an interview with The FOFion on Saturday. They all agreed with Cardiac.

“You know, I had absolutely no interest in joining the Fellowship of Friends until last week,” said one recent joinee, “but then I read the Evil Blog and noticed that many people have said the leader of this organization is a charlatan who coerces and manipulates countless followers into having sex with him by promising them salvation and threatening spiritual doom if they refuse. That’s what sealed it for me. I had to join after reading that.”

Many others nodded in agreement and thanked The Blog for giving them just the information they needed to confirm their commitment to a life of servitude to a sociopath.

“What made my decision easy was that I had no idea Robert Burton was a sociopath until I read The Blog,” one man said. “I was seriously leaning toward Life Personhood, but when I heard that Burton was a sociopath who simply wanted to suck as many penises as possible, that made it a no-brainer — I had very little choice but to join.”

A spokesperson for The Blog said contributors are going to cut back on the truth for a bit and simply talk about how wonderful it is to be in the presence of Burton.

“We may try a new approach,” one Blog spokesperson said, “such as telling people how awesome it is to be a member and to be in the presence of angels, and to stop telling people about all of the failed predictions for the end of the world, as well as the orgies and unsafe sex, and so on. Because you know, if so many people are joining, we’ll have to regroup and reassess things.”

37. veramente - January 3, 2010

I cannot believe it DC you are discussing one of your teacher’s (Robert Burton) favorite’s subjects: SEMEN!
…do not forget to brush the fake teeth or take a mint…Robert…

38. no goat - January 3, 2010

Bruce talking to DC – go Bruce!

39. Someone - January 3, 2010

OK guys I think I have made my point here.

I am on your side; I just have a different way to see what is going on in this blog.

Please at least think about one thing, life is not meant to be a series of oppositions to what others think, do or say. Where do reactions & counter reactions in this blog lead you? They lead you nowhere.

Time is short. Another million words in this blog won’t make any difference. There is more than enough for Google search.

Get your freedom. LET GO. By all means you deserve it.

Goodbye for now.

40. WhaleRider - January 3, 2010
41. WhaleRider - January 3, 2010
42. Daily Cardiac - January 3, 2010

Someone – 30:

“It is obvious that neither you nor anyone else in the FOF care about the wellness of any ex-member.”

I can’t speak for others but I don’t wish harm to any ex member. Can that be said about ex members towards current members? As far as caring about the wellness of ex members; I’ve been saddened over the departure of many I considered friends. I also feel they discarded their own wellness when they departed.

I will say this – read the comments and you will see I respect people here more than they respect me, or respect you for that matter. They are trying their best to tear down an organization I helped build along with them but one I continue to value highly. Do you expect me to get chummy with people under those circumstances?

You are convinced I’m dishonest but this is as honest as anyone can get, as this is how I feel and what I know as truth. It’s been the same in all my posts.

For me the whole experience of the blog would have been a waste if I did not express my experiences and reality as accurately as possible. My valuation for the FoF continues while yours ceased and that’s’ where the disconnect enters.

When a person cannot relate to the choices or lifestyle of another the first primal instinct is to criticize; this is how we recalibrate and re-validate our own existence.

If person A sees worth in something person B has discarded then person B must either disparage person A’s choice or reconsider their own choice, and if reconsidering is not an option then disparaging will do nicely. But there’s a better way; you made your own choice and I made mine. What could be more just than that?

There are no victims in the FoF and I think you understand that. When people become dissatisfied about the FoF they do what you did, they depart. And when they depart I’m grateful for their efforts and friendship but I do not endorse their decision to go. Ultimately it’s better all around for someone to depart if they lose trust in the teacher or the school and I also understand that.

43. X-ray - January 3, 2010

41. Daily Cardiac – January 3, 2010

Someone – 30:

“It is obvious that neither you nor anyone else in the FOF care about the wellness of any ex-member.”

I can’t speak for others but I don’t wish harm to any ex member. Can that be said about ex members towards current members? As far as caring about the wellness of ex members; I’ve been saddened over the departure of many I considered friends. I also feel they discarded their own wellness when they departed.

You idiot, DC.
You cannot possibly harm any ex-member, because it’s not in your being, and as far as our intent goes, then it is obvious by now, that we are here to help the current member to wake up to lies of Robert Burton, and nothing more discards your wellness, then staying in your cult.

44. apostate - January 3, 2010

41 “There are no victims in the FoF and I think you understand that…”

and denial is a river in egypt…

there are two ends of the stick: there is a type of “relational” dynamic at work between victim and victimizer in that one cannot exists without the other —

The victim surrenders power over their life to another. A living being sacrificed to an imaginary deity, as in the performance of religious rites and rituals, made an offering of. A person destroyed or sacrificed in the pursuit of an object, or in gratification of an obsession, lust or passion; a victim to jealousy, lust, or ambition. A person destroyed by, or suffering injury from another, from fortune or from accident; as, the victim of a fraud, the victim of a charlatan. Hence, one who is duped, or cheated; a dupe; a gull. To deceive; to cheat; to mislead; to trick; to defraud. A cheat or to cheat; trick; fraud. One easily cheated; a dupe. One who has been deceived or who is easily deceived; a gull; as, the dupe of a schemer. To deceive; to trick; to mislead by imposing on one’s credulity; to gull; to dupe one by flattery or fraud. To lead into error; to cause to believe what is false, or disbelieve what is true; to impose upon; to mislead; to cheat; to disappoint; to delude; to insnare. To beguile; to amuse, so as to divert the attention; to while away; to take away as if by deception. To deprive by fraud or stealth; to defraud.To lead from truth or into error; to mislead the mind or judgment of; to beguile; to impose on; to dupe; to make a fool of. That which deceives or is intended to deceive; false representation; artifice; cheat; fraud. To lead into a wrong way or path; to lead astray; to guide into error; to cause to mistake; to deceive. Deception deliberately practiced with a view to gaining an unlawful or unfair advantage; artifice by which the right or interest of another is injured; injurious stratagem; deceit; trick. An intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of obtaining some valuable thing or promise from another, to trap or snare.

45. WhaleRider - January 3, 2010

Fellowship Denies Claims as “Silly Beliefs”

Yuba County (URP!)- In an ironic and some say illuminating twist, lawyers on behalf of a young Russian man filed a fraud suit in Yuba County Superior Court today claiming he was denied access to paradise due to his association with the elusive and controversial cult, The Fellowship of Friends.

Petri Penisbreathsky, affectionately known by his guru as “PeePee” and recently arrived from Siberia on a religious concubine visa, is still listed in critical condition in Marysville General Hospital with severe head injuries after a near fatal car accident in which he fell asleep at the wheel.

After returning to consciousness, he had this to say about his near death experience, “As I was released from my earthly bonds and transformed into spirit, I felt my astral body floating upward toward an enormous bright light. I thought it was my guru, Robert Burton, who said over and over and over and over and over that HE was the brightest light in 2000 years. When I called out his name, suddenly it became dark, and I felt like I was being sucked back down to earth from below my waist. It was an odd feeling I didn’t understand at first, being sucked down there like that. A few moments later I woke up in this hospital bed feeling a great blissful peace. I realized all those payments to my guru I made under the table and behind closed doors were in vain. There was work to be done. In a flash, I realized that it was my duty from that moment on to warn my fellow humans to take responsibility for their own evolution and not rely on a guru for anything. They just take advantage of you and bring you down. Only with a clear conscience would I then be allowed into paradise.”

Apparently, according to police reports, Penisbreathsky was not wearing his safety belt due to his belief that “higher forces” would somehow protect him against the overwhelming forces of gravity.

Lawyers for the Fellowship immediately dismissed the young man’s claims as “silly beliefs”, stating that there “was no proof of any payments made by Penisbreathsky either under the table, on the table or hovering above the dining table.”

In the blogosphere, critics of the Fellowship point out that all evidence is usually consumed by the cult’s elderly gay founder, Robert Burton, dissolved in the saliva of the leader’s mouth. The real evidence of the fraud remains to be revealed upon the leader’s death when subordinates attempt to somehow keep the dying cult alive.

46. What You Should Know About Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends - January 3, 2010

• It’s a doomsday cult.
• The predicted doomsday never came.
• Burton predicted major catastrophes for 1984 and 1998, and then nuclear war for 2006. For decades, he predicted the Fellowship of Friends would become the beginning of a new civilization in 2006.
• Through cognitive dissonance, followers try to forget the above predictions, or downplay them.
• Like other cults, followers are uncomfortable with labels such as “cult,” calling it a “pejorative” term, or insisting that it’s “misleading.” But there’s no better one-word description for this organization in the English language.
• Burton has coerced and seduced several hundred young followers — and perhaps thousands — into having sex with him, using promises of spiritual salvation, expensive gifts, and vacations abroad. As a result, many former and current followers have suffered lasting psychological scars and emotional trauma, and a few have committed suicide. (Read the numerous personal accounts within this web log.)
• Burton is a sociopath and malignant narcissist who shows no concern for the welfare of his followers unless they are useful to him in some way. When they cease to be useful to him, he discards them.
• Burton’s “public” persona is one of a gentle guru who speaks with a soft voice. This personality helps him hypnotize his followers into believing they have found the one truth path to enlightenment, salvation, and heaven.
• Burton tells his followers that 44 angels, or gods, guide the Fellowship of Friends — and that they guide only the Fellowship of Friends. Angels, he says, do not guide anyone else on earth.
• Burton advances a world view that Hell exists, and that there’s only one way to avoid going to Hell when one dies: Join the Fellowship of Friends, and stay in the Fellowship of Friends until your death. All people on earth who do not join the Fellowship of Friends will go to Hell when they die. Likewise, followers are warned that they will go to Hell if they leave the cult.
• Followers are discouraged or forbidden from communicating with former members. Those who leave the cult will lose contact with their closest friends within the cult.
• Followers are forbidden to discuss any of the above. If they do discuss these facts with their friends, or question anyone about these facts, they will be expelled. This in turn fosters secrecy and lack of transparency within the cult.
• People outside the cult who try to provide the above information to followers within it are intimidated or threatened with legal retaliation, much like the Scientology cult.
• Burton charges exorbitant membership fees – anywhere from 20% to 40% of income, depending on a person’s salary. The full amount of these fees is never discussed when representatives try to sell people on joining the cult.
• The fees have helped pay for Burton’s extravagant lifestyle, which includes expensive clothing, frequent expensive vacations, and a lavish home at the cult’s compound in Oregon House, California (between Grass Valley and Yuba City).
• Burton and the Fellowship of Friends have been sued by former members on multiple occasions. Most of these suits have been settled out of court, with insurance companies paying the settlement on behalf of the Fellowship of Friends.
• Burton founded the cult in 1970. For more than three decades, he characterized the cult as a so-called “Fourth Way school.” In recent years, the cult has virtually abandoned any discussions about the Fourth Way.
• Because the Fellowship of Friends (also referred to as Pathway to Presence) has been granted religious status, American taxpayers help pay for this cult.
• In the last four years, several hundred followers have left the Fellowship of Friends, and many followers continue to leave. It’s believed that slightly over 1,000 members remain worldwide, but reliable statistics are not publicly available.

47. X-ray - January 3, 2010

44. What You Should Know About Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends – January 3, 2010

100% TRUE.

48. veramente - January 3, 2010

never say goodbye Someone…

This blog is a good place for exorcism.
Even “bad taste” humor is good. It’s one more way to say to Robert Burton that he is seen for what he truly is: a dirty old man.

49. Silentpurr - January 3, 2010

I am certain that Daily Cardiac and present members sense the genuine compassion for their predicament felt by former students. During my time of following this blog, I have seen nothing but a continuous flow of genuine concern expressed by posters. A kind of SECOND LINE WORK.
DC’s disappointment concerning the Robert can be can be seen by the weakening of their defense of him.
We, as former students have been at that crossroads ourselves.And this is exactly why we can discuss these issues freely.
It can be discouraging to realize that one’s teacher is seen as RIDICULOUS by people who knew him well and once made heroic efforts on his behalf.
Why would Robert continue to lead such a cavalier life, sweeping everyone into his crazy-making swirl? Because he can!
And because the FOF is,and always been emotionally fragmented, no one will stop him.
Meanwhile, poor DC and other “supporting students” are expected to maintain a threadbare modicum of sanity.
I am sorry for the slings and arrows of your outrageous fortune, but YOU yourselves have permitted this anaerobic environment to exist all of these years.
So much time, money and heart have already been invested!
And when you leave, you leave with nothing but your conscience.
It is a real dilemma for you, O Ye Fellowship Of Friends!
I’m wishing a productive New Year for us all!

50. sallymcnally - January 4, 2010

To Dick Moron: As off color as these cartoons are they are still making me laugh very hard. Maybe I have a quirky sense of humor like the rest of the crowd, although I don’t typically think of myself in such a way. Very creative I must say.

51. fofblogmoderator - January 4, 2010

35 & 44 are new

52. WhaleRider - January 4, 2010

hundredthousandangels or shall I call you “lapresenza”?

OK, I get it, third eye. We all have one. What’s your point?

Your youtube site lists numbers and email addresses to the European tentacle of the Fellowship of Friends AKA Pathway to Presence Rape Factory.

53. Yesri Baba - January 4, 2010

hundredthousand dangles-

You posted the wrong video. It’s the other ‘third eye’ that gets penetrated in the Hershey Highway to Presence. I suggest you shove that foofie bullshit up there next to your head.

54. anna - January 4, 2010

With reference to DC’s post 21.

Actually it was not me that sat next to Robert Burton and smelled semen on his breath. It was another student. A favourite of his, who was deeply shocked, and temporarily disconcerted by it. Nevertheless, they are still a member. So you see, they had no vested interest in lying or exaggerating.

Additionally I am surprised and hurt that you DC would seek to demean me personally: she/he stated “A T is a former actress and she knows what makes good drama. Fantasies appear to be her specialty.”
This is untrue. I have never been an actress, although I did participate in a number of acting roles when part of the Fellowship, and when at university (There is no irony intended here).

Finally, semen definately smells as I think every one knows. It’s not a noxious odour, but it very specific. Like all other body fluids it is more pungent at body temperature. If someone speaks to you at a face or two’s distance away had oral sex, the odour would be pretty much unavoidable.

I have never lied on the blog. Or even exaggerated. To me it is very important to be absolutely in earnest here. DC’s comments are just plain mean and and not founded on anything, other perhaps to discredit my earlier testimony.

Admittedly though I do know that reality is the most compelling drama.

Please pick on (defamate) someone who doesn’t mind being picked on. I’m not in that game.

55. hundredthousandangels - January 4, 2010

Miss any of your Turkey Day friends?
Obviously, basting is going on.
Thanksgiving Day 4:35:

56. veramente - January 4, 2010

55
100.000 angels

holy shit!

57. X-ray - January 4, 2010

54. anna – January 4, 2010

Hi Anna,
Don’t worry about DC’s crap. He is a fucking fellowshp paid asshole who playing here specific role distracting and distorting truth about cock suckers Robert Burton.
There are other people from whom I’ve heard that personally, that Burton’s mouth smell, and these were the people who were cumming in his mouth twice a week on regular basis.
All you say it’s true, and we all know that.

Daily Crap is fucking idiot and liar.
Pay no attention to this asshole.

58. snorer - January 4, 2010

Fucking hell,for a moment I thought this was Bobby with fake tan.

59. brucelevy - January 4, 2010

54. anna

Hi anna. Don’t take DC’s idiocy personally. He/she has accused several people here of fabrication of “facts” on several occasions, and has frequently been “proved” to be full of shit, although that’s never penetrated DC’s wall of absurdity . I don’t think many here take DC’s “facts and statements” here as anything more than the utterances of a moron with his head up his ass.

60. brucelevy - January 4, 2010

55. hundredthousandangels

Thanks, my gag reflex still works.

61. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 4, 2010

Here is an apt description of D.C. and/or any other of the Fellowship of Friends paid and unpaid shills that appear here from time to time:

‘To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

William Shakespeare
The Tragedy of Macbeth
Act 5, Scene 5

Don’t pay any attention to the man behind the curtain.

62. surelyujest - January 4, 2010

55. hundredthousandangels

Wow. That makes me sad. Not because I miss it, but because those poor fools are so deluded. What a waste.

63. Spock - January 4, 2010

Regarding the YouTube video at 35: The fact that someone posted that here — believing it’s some sort of positive ad for the FOF — means they have no idea how creepy it is.

Some time ago, I read a book called Morning of the Magicians, which goes into detail about the occult and mysticism and many of the strange ideas hidden behind historical events.

So-called “esoteric ideas” are still interesting to me. But here’s where I believe it goes wrong and leads to sociopathic behavior: When our egos want to believe we have found the one true path, and that we are superior to others.

And as a result we’ll do whatever we can to convince ourselves of that, and to convince others. Life becomes a quest to attain control and power over others. We try to separate ourselves from the world — which is one of the favorite pasttimes of the ego — and in the process it leads to crime and destruction:

“Hitler’s early occult training relied heavily upon the same New Age and New World Order teachings that are so popular throughout the world today. Also like many New Agers today, Hitler was consumed by the stories of the “Holy Grail” and the “Spear of Destiny”. Hitler was also deeply involved in achieving ‘transcendent consciousness’ through meditations and drugs, so critical if he was to open his Pineal Gland, or the Third Eye of Eastern Mysticism.

—-

Regarding the thankgiving dinner video: The first words that come to mind are pretentious and humorless. I was there, and can see me standing there sipping wine just like them. I see a group of obedient people, all thinking alike, acting alike, and being careful to fit in just perfectly. They’ve invested most of their lives in something that they believe for now that they can’t let go of.

From the previous page, there’s a quotation on some of the symptoms of cognitive dissoance. “The more committed we are to a belief, the harder it is to relinquish, even in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence. Instead of acknowledging an error in judgment and abandoning the opinion, we tend to develop a new attitude or belief that will justify retaining it.”

64. 2010 - January 4, 2010

#55 – Nice video. Keep ’em comin. Do you have access to any video footage of the cows that now graze throughout the vineyard slopes in place of the cabernet vines that used to reside there? How about some video footage of the orchard next to the vineyard that is now fenced and locked? Maybe someone has some video of Robert’s storage closet downstairs that looks like a hurricane hit it. Or better yet, some video of Robert all pissed off because the antique clock he ordered for 10,000.00 was going to arrive a week past estimated delivery time.

Yes for a mere 7000.00/year you too can listen to Autumn Leaves sung in Portuguese and eat turkey carved by Asaf. Burton makes sure that nothing remains static at “camp awakening” (except his insatiable appetite for hetero cock) to ensure that he keeps things moving so his followers don’t get bored. Llamas and peacocks and cows, oh my!

65. dick moron - January 4, 2010

55. hundredthousandangels

Sorry, I can’t say that I miss any of those zombies. But the table settings in your video have a wonderful Martha Stewart refinement to them. Bravo! Good to see the 12 or so people shown are having such a wonderful Thanksgiving feast. I also see some of the mentally handicapped folk are still serving the food. It’s nice they are kept employed. Cheers!

66. apostate - January 4, 2010

63 2010
As for “his insatiable appetites” it’s a symptom of a very deeply rooted problem. If consistently acted upon as is the case here, the insatiable appetites create more problem, the original problem is spread as a virus. If it were only a problem for the perpetrator then it would be an entirely different story — for example if he had an uncontrollable compulsion to masturbate. Unfortunately his problem is imposed upon others who are infected by it at first unsuspecting — but then the unsuspecting at some point become collaborators, willingly? I think those who stay and collude give up their will, they enable Burton to carry out his deceptions, feeding his insatiable appetites.

Burton is a self-proclaimed “spiritual guide,” the “brightest light in 2000 years.” In his guise as a “teacher” he is able to gain the trust and confidence of the neophyte and he takes advantage of his presumed position of authority over his students, at every turn he betrays their trust. In this betrayal he damages the student. One way of looking at trust is that it issues from a type of purity of heart and when this type of trust is destroyed, then something good, true and beautiful dies to the world; and so through his betrayals Burton damages the world. A cynic might argue that trust comes from naivete’ but even so, there are ways of working with the naive without destroying trust.

Studies demonstrate over and again the many psychological and emotional difficulties experienced by those with gender issues, in particular transgendered individuals and those who identify themselves psycho-emotionally with a gender other than the physical body they were born into. Burton’s many statements about being a “goddess in a man’s body” are clear evidence of his deep confusion. He could have spared so many honest and sincere folks so much grief if he would have sought out the proper professional help 30 odd years ago. Rather than investing so much of himself in setting up this little confidence trick called the FOF (aka Pathway to Presence), if he would have instead chosen to undergo “sexual reassignment” surgery along with the necessary investment in psychological counseling to make the transition from male to female, then he might have spared a lot of folks the impositions of his condition. Coulda-shoulda-woulda — instead, what we have among us is a fraud, a deceiver who lies in waiting, whose very existence depends upon bamboozling those seeking direction in life, the innocent, the naive, the unwary and the unsuspecting.

Just to be clear the issue is not with the morality of consensual homosexuality; if Burton loves nothing more than sucking cock, good for him, there are plenty of WILLING participants on the planet who would KNOWINGLY enter into that sort of activity. He could have for example, chosen to live in the SF Castro district, started a business as an interior decorator (he seems to have a proclivity for that sort of thing) and there he would have ready access to the surrounding meat-market. The problem, the issue is with his choice of prey and his methods of luring them into his web of deceit. I’m not just talking about the hetero males he has such a taste for, the females who join his enterprise are equally victimized by his appetites. The method he uses to lure “students” is the issue, he disguises himself as a “spiritual guide” and preys upon those sincerely seeking direction in life.

As for Burton’s defective moral control in relation to the impulses of his appetites and his behavior toward those who invest their trust and entrust their spiritual well being to him:

“Volition, in so far as it is concerned in moral control, may be regarded as inhibitory; it is the overpowering of one stimulus to activity–which in this connection is activity contrary to the good of all–by another stimulus which we might call the moral idea, the idea of the good of all. There is, in fact, a conflict between stimuli and in so far as the moral idea prevails, the determining or volitional process may be regarded as inhibiting the impulse which is opposed to it.”

A sympton of the deeply rooted problem has to do with volition and the concomittant violation of trust.

67. Silentpurr - January 4, 2010

Thanks for sharing the video.
Everybody looks pretty much the same, just different people filling the same slots and roles. And it is all so creepy, especially knowing that behind the smiles, and the zest for crashing Baucarat, that deep conflict exists within each make-believer.
The musician is uninspired and bored. It is her ‘octave’ to entertain.
I am soo THANKFUL for being on this side of the lens.

68. James Mclemore - January 4, 2010

Silentpurr said,

“The musician is uninspired and bored”

Yeah I thought so too. Here is the same piece with feeling – quite a difference.

69. X-ray - January 5, 2010

55. hundredthousandangels – January 4, 2010

Thank you 55.
I can’t believe I knew these never changing idiots.
I would like to see their faces after Burton gets in jail.

70. X-ray - January 5, 2010

Asaf, a little monkey who have seen nothing in his life, R.T, known bitch, and Ulrich, stupid German turkey…
What a company to celebrate thanksgiving day!

71. WhaleRider - January 5, 2010

FYI, Youtube states in its “Community Guidelines”, paragraph 7 that:

“Things like predatory behavior, stalking, (ETC.) are taken very seriously. Anyone caught doing these things may be permanently banned from YouTube.

It seems to me that “lapresenza” when quoting Gurdjieff, tagging their videos using “Fourth Way” (as though the Fellowship had something to do with either) and then posting phone numbers and email addresses to the Fellowship for recruiting purposes constitutes an extension of Burton’s predatory behavior…don’t ya think?

It is possible to flag all their videos with a link to the petition. Anyone interested in helping to drain the victim pool?

Thanks hundredthousandangels for bring this to my attention.

72. Tatyana - January 5, 2010

Interesting video… Whoever artist is behind lapresenza – it was a powerful (though obvious) strategy. Just think about it – seemingly Thanksgiving dinner…
“The falling leaves… I used to go… Since you went away the days went loooong… What I am missing most of all…”

And faces of the dear friends…
Falling leaves. Leaving members.
Ah…

Interesting to notice that at the dinner table there was no empty chair and the camera was pretty stable. Makes me wonder if the artist behind this project is someone at the Thanksgiving table?

No, it couldn’t be…

Check out all 7 videos on youtube from lapresenza. Interesting.

73. fofblogmoderator - January 5, 2010

58 is new

74. brucelevy - January 5, 2010

58. snorer

They’re ALL the same person.

75. Daily Cardiac - January 5, 2010

Silent Purr – 49:

“I am certain that Daily Cardiac and present members sense the genuine compassion for their predicament felt by former students. During my time of following this blog, I have seen nothing but a continuous flow of genuine concern expressed by posters. A kind of SECOND LINE WORK.”

Silent Purr, you won’t win any credibility contests with remarks like this one. Are you trying to out-droll me? If you are not being facetious I think you succeeded hands down.

A kind of “second line work?” Seriously, I’ve done my share of second line work both on the giving and receiving end and your comments remind me of the old adage – With friends like these who needs enemies!

Silent Purr – “I have seen nothing but a continuous flow of genuine concern expressed by posters.”

I posted a kind of compilation of responses (20 or more) I received in about a ten day span a month or so ago. Maybe you missed it. It consisted of some of the most vulgar and verbally abusive language imaginable. I’m the only current member who has posted here in the last year except for the odd post by one or two fence sitters who were practically out of the door. So I would assume some of this concern you speak of would have been sent my way.

On occasions in the past some ex members have alluded to the similar nature of responses to myself and other current members and they chalked it up to the process of “healing.” That’s equally dubious but at least it’s an admission of sorts about the harshness and negative nature of the comments. I’m aware that anger is one stage, often a beginning stage, in the process of healing, but 20 to 30 years is an awful long time to heal.

Some definitions of Concern:

to care, to relate to; be connected with; be of interest or importance to; to trouble over, worry about.

Silent Purr – “I am certain that Daily Cardiac and present members sense the genuine compassion for their predicament felt by former students.”

Compassion: “Compassion is a human emotion prompted by the pain of others. More vigorous than empathy, the feeling commonly gives rise to an active desire to alleviate another’s suffering.”

I’m not suffering from my FoF experience and I don’t meet up with any current members who are that I can tell; but rather they and I are being enriched by it.

But if we were suffering I would still have to question your claim that ex members care, judging by the responses I receive. It’s not like I’m attacking anyone here but just chronicling my own experiences in the FoF.

I think many ex members here have a larger end game than compassion or concern about current members; they are seeking redemption, and staking it on the demise of the FoF. This of course is misguided as one’s redemption can only be linked to one’s own actions; not external events.

76. apostate - January 5, 2010

Tough love — an expression used when someone treats another person harshly or sternly with the intent to help them in the long run.

as opposed to

Enabling — used in the context of problematic behavior to signify dysfunctional approaches that are intended to help but in fact may perpetuate a problem. A common theme of enabling is that second parties take responsibility, blame, or make accommodations for a person’s harmful conduct (often with the best of intentions, or from fear or insecurity which inhibits action). The practical effect is that the perpetrator himself does not feel the need to take responsibility, and is shielded from awareness of the harm he does, and the need or pressure to change.

Feeling needed as an enabler is not worth the long term ramifications created by the enabling. The person being enabled will have some difficult short term consequences if the enabling stops, but these experiences are vital to the growth and psychosocial functioning of both the enabler and the enabled.

77. surelyujest - January 5, 2010

68 James Mclemore

Eva Cassidy can sing all she wants, she’s still a sleeping machine who’s going to hell.

Actually, that was awesome.

78. Kid Shelleen - January 5, 2010

James,

Re: video @ post 68

Now that wasn’t really fair, was it? If ever there was a Godess trapped inside a human body, Eva was one. I’m sure the FoF faithful twist their aesthetic sensibilities in a knot trying to embrace the more conscious version of the tune. I remember trying to do that myself.

79. Kid Shelleen - January 5, 2010

surelyujest,

Beat me to it! That’s the line I was searching my synapses for.

80. X-ray - January 5, 2010

75. Daily Cardiac – January 5, 2010

”I think many ex members here have a larger end game than compassion or concern about current members; they are seeking redemption, and staking it on the demise of the FoF. This of course is misguided as one’s redemption can only be linked to one’s own actions; not external events.”

What we want is Justice, Daily Crap, nothing more.
Personally I care less for assholes like you, but there are some people in the FOF, to whom I would like to help to wake up and leave this dirty cult.

81. veramente - January 5, 2010

58
I did not watch the whole video….but for a moment I too saw Bobby Burton…creepy.
Noticed the man in the video speaks very slowly with hardly any espression in his eyes, hand twisted sideway…
In looking into more videos of “lapresenza” I ended up watching a you tube with Osho.
He too speaks very slowly, maybe it is an Indian way of talking or a process of translating into english?
Bobby Burton more often than not seemed to speak too fast.
What are (any of you) your recollections…if you care.

82. veramente - January 5, 2010

75 DC
You have the tongue of a snake.
What it means is that you have two opposite ends on the tip of your tongue (bifurcated);
when you speak/write, you superimpose meaning on top of another; you create fog.
Imagine the effect you have on people who can detect your bullshit miles away from you.

83. Opus 111 - January 5, 2010

I am a little surprised the “lapresenza” videos have not been flagged for possible copyright infringement. After all they use recorded music and show museum pieces, all with the unstated purpose to recruit more people to a cult headed by a man who preys on young men and money.

84. rock that boat - January 5, 2010

55. hundredthousandangels

CLEVER!!!!!!
Great FOF politics here!
Excellent commercial quality -Shangri La-ish!

You don’t fool us though,
a golden cage is still a cage
definition of cage: something that restricts freedom

85. brucelevy - January 5, 2010

“lapresenza” videos

Youtube comments are disabled on all the laprenza videos. Gee, I wonder why. Schmucks on parade.

86. Tatyana - January 5, 2010

I found out that the youtube collection of videos is a new advertising octave of FOF. Also it seems that I was right that the artist behind is at the Thanksgiving table.

The strategy of this video is similar to the commercials about adoption of abused animals and supporting hungry African children. Tearjerker.

What really amazes me is that people believe that collection of randomly selected images interpreted by insane Robert proves that they have an access to the Real Esoteric Knowledge. Taken completely out of context and misunderstood those images (even if some were “esoteric” in origin) only lead them to one conclusion: C Influence is sending them secret messages and because of RB they now can read them. It is a mental laziness. Why not do a research and find out what do they exactly mean? Oh, well…

87. Tatyana - January 5, 2010

Said by FOF member:

“There are no hydrogens at the “events”, not as it used to be. Robert gave everything he could. Now it’s our turn to make efforts. But people don’t want to make efforts. This is why they leave…”

Really?

88. Tatyana - January 5, 2010

I just found a copy of Rembrand’s Holy Family At Night online from 3 different sources. Wanted to see if there are some scary devils under the stairs as in lapresenza videos. I took all 3 images to Photoshop and changed the “levels” in order to add more light.

That place under the stairs that lapresenza zooms-in and reveals a hidden devil actually has… a sack!

What did Gurdgieff said? Verify, verify, verify!

Why people love to be fooled?

89. Silentpurr - January 5, 2010

DC
What I am Realizing is that we cannot have a logical discussion with you as long as you insist on clinging to a delusion that you are “working on yourself”
Oh that’s right – You are not claiming to be working on yourself! Robert gave up ” The Work” years ago, in favor of the pleasure phase. The enrichment phase.
You claim to be continually enriched.( it’s probably your position.)
That’s fine for a club.
What I am saying,is that, it is obvious to us on the outside, that the Fellowship, as it continues to descend, is something entirely different from what it was when it began.
DC, you now belong to what appears to be a “nice” friendly cultural club.
Just face the truth about it. With Robert leading, one is under more laws in than one is out.
The FOF has been a business for a long time.And not a very reputable business. ( I believe it should be investigated.)
Fraudulent advertising for one.
In a “school” where the “teacher” claims to have become “conscious” by doing everything his teacher instructed him to do. And considering Robert’s sexual predatory history. How can you honestly say this not FRAUD?
Oh, I forgot, Honesty has never been a strong character in the Fellowship play. They are too numerous to mention at this time.
DC, Did You say that you are not suffering? Possibly you don’t suffer because you have nothing to suffer with.
Your potential for feeling has been gradually replaced by a penchant for consuming and being entertained.
Robert’s “path” from the beginning has been the pursuit of pleasure, even at the expense and suffering of others.
But that cannot compare with the pleasure of the Truth.
In the Fellowship,the creative impulse is buried along with the Authentic Self.
Only when you free yourself from the Fellowship’s repressive influence will you rediscover it.
And DC, we do care for every single Fellowship magnetic center, including yours.

90. Susan Zannos - January 5, 2010

Oh good grief! I was just viewing some of the lapresensa videos on You tube, particularly the details in the Rembrandt, titled “The Art of Looking” or some such. What struck me was the parallel to a book I recently came across (and leafed through with the sort of shudder that accompanies turning over a flat rock to see the crawly things) purporting to be the images coded by “The Illuminati.” This curious brand of ersatz scholarship, given strength by the success of The Divinci Code (itself a harmlessly rollicking good read) and Angels and Demons (not quite so much fun) has become an epidemic enthusiastically appropriated by the wingnut religious right and, it would appear, equally embraced by the Fellowship. I suppose the real disgust and revulsion comes from remembering how far I was willing to walk down that intellectually despicable road.

91. Tatyana - January 5, 2010

90. This exactly my thoughts, The DaVinci Code. Except the DaVinci code is more creative and does not use Photoshop to adjust the images. But still – plenty of lies.

I made another research and found Rembrand’s Christ at Emma, where according to lapresenza the Satan is hiding under the Christ’s table in the dark.

What it actually is – a depiction of a moment at Emmaus when the eyes of the disciples were opened, and they recognized their guest as Jesus, whom they had recently seen crucified.
One man is sitting at the table in astonishment, when another is so shocked that he fell on his knees before his Master.

There are two painting with the same name, looking at the other one makes a scene pretty obvious. No Satan!

92. Never say Never - January 5, 2010

69. X-ray

“I would like to see their faces after Burton gets in jail.”

Unfortunately I don’t see who’s going to put him in jail. The farther we get from 2006-7 when the hot potatoes were right on the fire, the lower are the chances that those who can will actually nail him in court.

Those who have been molested have kept their mouth shut, at least up until now. Some used to post here and some still do, but they don’t go to court. The guys around him have always camouflaged his sexual ceremonies. Those who were not directly involved knew nothing first hand. Before I left I was trying to open my eyes and sniff around, but I came up with nothing. One evening I saw him leaving the boys house and I sensed from the way he looked that he just had sex, it was obvious. As much as we want it to be otherwise, legally speaking, having consented sex amongst adults is not a crime. I am quite sure there are enough evidences for molesting to establish a conviction, but time goes by and time is in favor of his side.

93. X-ray - January 6, 2010

87. Tatyana – January 5, 2010

Said by FOF member:

“There are no hydrogens at the “events”, not as it used to be. Robert gave everything he could. Now it’s our turn to make efforts. But people don’t want to make efforts. This is why they leave…”

What an idiot!
Did you ask him why he keep on paying teaching payment to his teacher if his teacher has nothing else to give him back?

And as far as this lapresenza bullshit goes, then it’s simply ridiculous.
How possibly Burton can speak about the Third Eye vision, when this retarded asshole can’t make any sense looking thru his two?

94. Spock - January 6, 2010

Never say Never: “having consented sex amongst adults is not a crime…”

Here we go again. This has been discussed here at length — see all 88 pages. What people have described here is not “consensual” sex.

This is a “charismatic” cult leader who exerts psychological power and who gains control over his victims through fraudulent claims of providing spiritual guidance. His victims become victims because they fear the consequences of rejecting him. This is not consensual sex.

He has created a culture of fear that punishes and discourages dissent and transparency, which leads to further confusion among his followers when they’re asked to take their pants down.

I have no idea whether anyone is on the verge of putting Burton “in jail,” so I won’t argue with you on that. But just as Burton (and those around him) run the very real risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases, there’s also a very real risk that Burton may go just a bit too far one day — and mess with the wrong naive follower.

You say that “time is on his side.” I have no idea what that means. Do you hae some sort of inside information that he’s slowing down? From what I hear, it sounds like he’s accelerating his “activities” if anything, and becoming more and more bold with his risky behavior. Not only is time not on his side, but the numbers aren’t either.

95. WhaleRider - January 6, 2010

Brightest Light Not So Bright Anymore

Oregon House (URP!)- The situation at the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. a pseudo-religious corporation, seems to be darkening a bit as the elderly gay leader Robert E. Burton reaches advanced age and winds down his colorful and controversial leeching career.

Now Fellowship members are required to carry flashlights when they are in his company in order to spot the increasingly small grains of truth found lodged in the rhino poop he leaves in his diapers.

“It’s not as it used to be”, one current Fellowship follower was quoted as saying recently. “Robert gave everything he could”…which, judging from the sheer numbers of people who have left the cult verses those who stayed, apparently wasn’t much in the first place.

“In my experience, he always seemed to be more on the receiving end anyway”, an ex-follower stated, “and believe me, he’s not the sharpest tool in the tool shed either.”

If the biblical quote, “the highest among you is a servant to the rest” is any indication of spiritual development, then where is Burton?

A recent Fellowship of Friends promotional video entitled, “Thanksgiving 2009” viewed on Youtube shows many scenes of Fellowship followers in blissful servitude, but there are no shots of Burton setting the example as the spiritual authority figure. This begs the question, is “serving” for him…just helping himself to another slice of pie?

96. Golden Veil - January 6, 2010

*

From the Greater Fellowship page of a former member: ? !

Did you ever visit the Fellowship property in California? What was it called at the time?

apollo iside hermafrodita

Hermafrodita ! ?

*

97. Daily Cardiac - January 6, 2010

To Anna – 54:

“Additionally I am surprised and hurt that you DC would seek to demean me personally.”

You have a point to some degree Anna. What I said at the end of my post amounted to a gratuitous emphasis to the rest and was not necessary.

Although my impulse at the time was not to hurt or demean you; but was to expose the unlikely nature of the circumstances you described, which for reasons I’ve stated still remains quite bogus to me. But that’s not the real issue between us.

Anna – “DC’s comments are just plain mean and and not founded on anything, other perhaps to discredit my earlier testimony.”

Considering the replies I receive from your supporters what I said was mild indeed. Have you noticed the degree of verbal abuse hurled at me on each post I submit? It’s interesting indeed that you would take so much offense at the “meanness”of my jibe when what I receive, much harsher by comparison, does not appear to bother you in the least.

Because I am a supporter of the FoF you probably don’t even consider there is a person behind the moniker of DC. How is it that a sensitive and caring person, as I remember you to be, can acutely feel any hurt directed at yourself but when similar hurts are directed at someone on the opposing side you obviously are not in the least affected?

This blog has become the clearing house for supposed abuses by the FoF but those same “abused” ones think nothing of verbally abusing others in the name of a self ordained justice. Most people who suffer abuses, real or perceived, feel justified to abuse others in turn. What’s going on here is no different; it’s just another form of abuse with a “cause” behind it, propping it up.

So if I hurt you you have my apologies. I understand just commenting on my reality and experiences has offended the sensibilities of many here and that’s the way it is, but if I post here in the future I’ll remember your hurt and not add unnecessarily to anyone else’s.

I also apologize if you initially posted that the incident was relayed to you by someone else; my memory was that you told it in the first person. If I remembered correctly and now you say it was not your experience but retold from someone else’s that’s another story and only adds more uncertainty to the supposed incident.

98. Ellen - January 6, 2010

Hi Guys,

It’s been awhile. Just checking in. (JML thanks for the sensitive rendition of Autumn Leaves) Interesting Thanksgiving Day video. Actually I felt compassion for my friends. Misguided and misguiding themselves. But there is always a chance that their own critical consciousness will kick into gear someday. (How long it will take is anybody’s guess…)

What a shock it will be one day to suddenly realize that all those images, quotations and music pieces actually support an extremely dualistic spiritual agenda of only relative veracity. Oooops! A beautiful sonambulistic cage with no exit. Plenty of bliss (based on specific conditions) on the inside but spiritual independence is not on the menu. Ooooops! Entrapment, enmeshment but not enlightenment. Big ooooops.

And I’m not sure the blog can move beyond its current and ongoing polarity. It has at times, it can do it again, but that may not be its role? (IMO, there needs to be some sort of common ground.) Where is that?

DC doesn’t understand that the anger which is directed towards him here is essentially directed towards the ongoing abusive situation of spiritual crime, of which he is a rather stiff-necked mouthpiece. It’s not personal. If he chooses to identify himself with his own mind activity, then of course he can take it personally. But he knows better than that. Doesn’t he?

And far be it from me to tell other posters here what to say or how to say it. There is far too much raw truth hidden in this haystack.

Besides, there are a few projects that are in the works which may be able to cast the spiritual knowledge of the Fellowship in a very different and more objective light. But it will take a few years for all of these projects to bear fruit, let alone sift down. Why knows, maybe by 2012? And the Mayans might be vindicated after all! 😉

99. Never say Never - January 6, 2010

94. Spock
I agree with you that in most cases it is not consensual sex, but I don’t see any lawsuit coming as a result.

100. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 6, 2010

88/64. 2010:

#55 – Nice video. Keep ‘em comin. Do you have access to any video footage of the cows that now graze throughout the vineyard slopes in place of the cabernet vines that used to reside there? How about some video footage of the orchard next to the vineyard that is now fenced and locked? Maybe someone has some video of Robert’s storage closet downstairs that looks like a hurricane hit it. Or better yet, some video of Robert all pissed off because the antique clock he ordered for 10,000.00 was going to arrive a week past estimated delivery time.

1. ‘video footage of the cows. . .vineyard’ means most of vineyard is defunct now and/or converted to other agricultural uses. (Someone suggested turning it to cannabis growing!?)
2. ‘video footage of the orchard next to the vineyard that is now fenced and locked?’ refers to how orchard has been turned over to private enterprise (read: private inurement) (personal profit making activity of some privileged individuals) and is off limits to anyone else.
3. ‘video of Robert’s storage closet downstairs. . .’ Among the other ‘out-of-the-closet’ aspects of REB, people should know he’s been a closet hoarder. (How you can hoard closets is a new one on me.)
Perhaps going back into the closet would be a good idea:
‘Tis all a Chequer-board of Nights and Days
Where Destiny with Men for Pieces plays:
Hither and thither moves, and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the Closet lays.
Omar Khayyam
4. ‘video of Robert all pissed off because the antique clock he ordered for 10,000.00’ That’s $10,000. That is also a typical price for some of the palm trees, each. Someone correct me if that’s wrong. ‘video of Robert all pissed off’: Priceless, don’t leave home without it.
5. ‘Llamas and peacocks and cows, oh my!’ Forgot to mention the elephant and giraffe.

. . . . . .

88/66. apostate:

‘Burton is a self-proclaimed “spiritual guide,” the “brightest light in 2000 years.” In his guise as a “teacher” he is able to gain the trust and confidence of the neophyte and he takes advantage of his presumed position of authority over his students, at every turn he betrays their trust. In this betrayal he damages the student. One way of looking at trust is that it issues from a type of purity of heart and when this type of trust is destroyed, then something good, true and beautiful dies to the world; and so through his betrayals Burton damages the world. A cynic might argue that trust comes from naivete’ but even so, there are ways of working with the naive without destroying trust.’

‘Just to be clear the issue is not with the morality of consensual homosexuality; if Burton loves nothing more than sucking cock, good for him, there are plenty of WILLING participants on the planet who would KNOWINGLY enter into that sort of activity. He could have for example, chosen to live in the SF Castro district, started a business as an interior decorator (he seems to have a proclivity for that sort of thing) and there he would have ready access to the surrounding meat-market. The problem, the issue is with his choice of prey and his methods of luring them into his web of deceit. I’m not just talking about the hetero males he has such a taste for, the females who join his enterprise are equally victimized by his appetites. The method he uses to lure “students” is the issue, he disguises himself as a “spiritual guide” and preys upon those sincerely seeking direction in life.’

Well put, apostate! Worth reposting.

. . . . . .

88/76. apostate:

‘Tough love — an expression used when someone treats another person harshly or sternly with the intent to help them in the long run.’

‘We need very strong ears to hear ourselves judged frankly, and because there are few who can endure frank criticism without being stung by it, those who venture to criticize us perform a remarkable act of friendship, for to undertake to wound or offend a man for his own good is to have a healthy love for him.’
Michel de Montaigne

Not something that many people could live with, especially. . .
you know who.

101. Spock - January 6, 2010

99. Never say Never – “I agree with you that in most cases it is not consensual sex, but I don’t see any lawsuit coming as a result.”

Who knows? There have been lawsuits in the past with out-of-court settlements. So I’m not sure where you’re coming from on that question… If you’re coming from a part of you that wants a level-headed discussion, I can relate, but it’s hard to predict who will do what and why and when. When someone says something can’t or won’t be done, it’s sometimes true. On the other hand, it can become a type of thought virus. Thought viruses run rampant everywhere, but particularly in cults. I can’t think of anywhere I’ve been where more people more often would step in to tell others that something is ill advised, or can’t be done, or shouldn’t be done, or would be foolish, etc.

Creativity and life-giving impulses in the Fellowship of Friends are snuffed out, because usually those creative and life-giving impulses oppose the Burton agendas — one of which is getting a lot of cock, very often, with many followers, regardless of the consequences to anyone.

But whether there will or won’t be additional lawsuits against Burton, the most important thing is the spread of information.

Ellen, I don’t think there’s any “polarity” whatsoever on the blog. These are just a few people with the task to distract and obfuscate. Things get “out of control” here occasionally, which is maybe what you mean by polarity, I don’t know. But that’s one of the beauties of it… Control of information is the goal in a cult, not here.

Therefore, we have DCs and Someones stepping in to distract and discourage. When the blog really, REALLY gets focused on the real issues, these guys/gals/whatever have the task to step in and take up space. It’s a simple formula.

See Dick Moron’s film above… just say no to the princess.

102. sallymcnally - January 6, 2010

Ellen’s message of seeing polarity in the blog is an interesting one.

Because I am experiencing seeing so much of that, within myself, it makes me breathless at times. It’s important for me to remember that I AM all that, and all that is, is subject to polarity on this plane. No one here is above that, including myself. This is a planet where cause and effect rule. For me the key is to notice that within myself and within others and be able to discern which action to take.

Discernment of actions is key through self observation. I see none of that from the teacher of the Fellowship of Friends. Consequently severe emotional damage has been done to many, through his teachings of non-discernment.

The FOF is a place where one feels a false sense of safety and security in not allowing ones true expressions and where hearts remain bound.

And the Thanksgiving dinners go on and on in Pleasantville.

.

103. WhaleRider - January 6, 2010

To Anna-54:
I am so sorry the one over-zealous supporter of the Fellowship of Friends has attempted to demean and discredit you here on this blog.

Soon she will be taking her self-imposed hiatus from the blog anyway, and we will all be spared from her callous attacks and freed from our frustration of having to deal with her thick ego defenses.

When she does act out against her perceived subordinates, she usually misdirects her unresolved anger at sensitive and caring people like you (not unlike her abusive and predatory guru) and not at people who are more equipped to handle her personality disorder.

You are so right, it is important to tell the truth as earnestly as we can with clear conscience AND be able to admit when we are lying…like she was unable to do after claiming you were a spotlight seeking drama queen when it is so obvious to those who know you that you are not that kind of person.

However, you should be ashamed of yourself for standing up for yourself though, and not for her! Aren’t her feelings more important? What…were you thinking?

Have you not noticed the degree of written verbal abuse hurled at her by those who justly feel exploited, abused and in some cases, literally raped by Burton and the Fellowship of Friends?

Most normal people who suffer the written verbal abuses she has, either real or perceived, feel justified to abuse others in turn, seeking out those who are unlikely or unable to defend themselves. It was just her turn.

How is it that such a sensitive and caring person, as she remembers you to be, can still have the capacity to acutely feel any hurt directed at you (or feel anything at all) and you obviously are not in the least affected when similar hurts are directed at such a narcissist as her on the opposing side?

What is going on here? Have you suddenly evolved out of your co-dependence since you left the preschool?

If she remembered correctly, as she always does, and now you say it wasn’t your personal semen whiffing experience but an experience relayed to you from the perspective of someone closer to Burton who happens to be more intently familiar with the smell of semen, well that’s another story, and it is her duty to only add more uncertainty to the supposed incident.

Everyone knows that Burton gargles with the semen first and swishes it between his teeth, thoroughly mixing it with his saliva BEFORE swallowing it, to dissolve its pungent odor!

Otherwise, how else could he not give so many blowjobs before an event and not reek of semen and human pheromones?

Why else do you think Burton liberally douses himself with Givenchy before making public appearances…and the rooms intentionally have so many gaudy flower arrangements?

People just might be intentionally sequencing their sense of smell at the rare moments they get close to him.

104. Daily Cardiac - January 6, 2010

Spock – 94: “Here we go again. This has been discussed here at length — see all 88 pages. What people have described here is not “consensual” sex.

This is a “charismatic” cult leader who exerts psychological power and who gains control over his victims through fraudulent claims of providing spiritual guidance. His victims become victims because they fear the consequences of rejecting him. This is not consensual sex.”

Actually under today’s democratic laws it would be classified as consensual sex.

Some of the points you raise could not be proven in a court of law and some are not against any law. For one thing courts don’t even recognize the term “cult” or “cult leader.” There are no laws prohibiting “cults” as there is no way of accurately distinguishing a “cult” from a non-cult.

The word cult is a derogatory term. If you took an accepted description of the term “cult” it could be applied to almost any organization; the Boy Scouts, IBM, the US Military, Augusta National Golf Club, to name a few.

It’s not against any law to be charismatic, or persuasive, or powerful. It’s not against any laws to be admired or looked up to by others or even to be adored. It’s not against any law to hate or be hated. It’s not against any law to be feared or to be in fear.

Basically when an adult agrees to sex at that moment it becomes consensual and any grappling of the mind or emotions and any hidden psychological trappings are rendered null and void.

The best course is to know what you want and what you don’t want and be firm about it. Don’t relinquish your free will heedlessly.

Also understand that people have different priorities and valuations; what would be against your will may not be against another’s or may even be desirable to another.

There is no such thing as a perfect system of justice as there are no perfect people to apply it. But if ours was in tune with what you are suggesting we would be back in the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials.

Everyone knows someone they think should be convicted of something. There may be someone you know who would point a finger at you if pointing fingers is all that is necessary.

105. WhaleRider - January 6, 2010

Arkansas Code Ann. § 5-14-126. (one of today’s democratic laws)

Sexual assault in the third degree

(a) A person commits sexual assault in the third degree if the person:

(1) Engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual activity with another person who is not the actor’s spouse, and the actor is:

(A) Employed with the Department of Correction, Department of Community Correction, Department of Health and Human Services, or any city or county jail, and the victim is in the custody of the Department of Correction, Department of Community Correction, Department of Health and Human Services, or any city or county jail; or
(B) A professional under § 12-12-507(b) or a member of the clergy and is in a position of trust or authority over the victim and uses the position of trust or authority to engage in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual activity; or

(2)(A) Being under eighteen (18) years of age, engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual activity with another person who is:
(i) Less than fourteen (14) years of age; and
(ii) Not the person’s spouse
(B) It is an affirmative defense under this subdivision (a)(2) that the actor was not more than three (3) years older than the victim.

(b) It is no defense to a prosecution under this section that the victim consented to the conduct.

(c) Sexual assault in the the third degree is a Class C felony.

>>>>><<<<<

It is indicative of groupthink to deny all evidence to the contrary of the group's belief.

Nobody in a cult likes to be told they are in a cult either.

106. What You Should Know About Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends - January 6, 2010

See post 46 above.

Add to post 46 that one of the common traits of cult participants is relentless denial…

… perfectly exemplified in the post by the cult apologist directly above.

107. brucelevy - January 6, 2010

104. Daily Cardiac

“Basically when an adult agrees to sex at that moment it becomes consensual and any grappling of the mind or emotions and any hidden psychological trappings are rendered null and void.”

105. WhaleRider

“or a member of the clergy and is in a position of trust or authority over the victim and uses the position of trust or authority to engage in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual activity;”

“It is no defense to a prosecution under this section that the victim consented to the conduct.”

DC…and you continue, as always, to pull these “facts” out of your ignorant, narcissistic fat ass. Here’s a nice non derogatory suggestion… go fuck yourself.

108. apostate - January 6, 2010

“It’s not against any law to be charismatic, or persuasive, or powerful. It’s not against any laws to be admired or looked up to by others or even to be adored. It’s not against any law to hate or be hated. It’s not against any law to be feared or to be in fear.”

DC cannot see the contradictions in her “logic” — Burton, who compares himself to Christ is supposedly above the laws of normal mortals, yet DC continually justifies Burton’s behavior using the argument that Burton hasn’t broken any laws. The claim that DC and the FOLLOW SHEEP believe in completely, that Burton is Christ, is an article of faith that allows Burton to take advantage of and use his students as he pleases, while his enablers look the other way.
As far as the SHEEP are concerned, Burton can do no wrong because they believe he is the only “conscious being” on the planet, and therefore he is “law unto himself.” DC and the SHEEP believe Burton is above the law and yet DC continues to defend Burton’s depravity and his defective moral control based on the argument that there are no human laws which Burton violates. If Burton is (a priori) justified in doing whatever he so chooses, what difference should the laws make (?) Why even consider human laws, why does DC continually bring up the law in her justification of Burton’s dirty deeds ? Afterall, because of his imaginary status as the only “conscious being” on the planet, human laws don’t apply to him anyway, right ? (What did Veramente write about DC’s forked tongue? True that).

What DC is doing by continually bringing up the law in defense of Burton’s depravity, is simply a diversionary tactic. Hell, not so many years ago ownership of another human being wasn’t against the law, does that make slavery morally right? A slave owner could dispose of a slave as he saw fit, including torture and murder; does the fact that there are no laws against an act make it right? does it condone the act on a moral level? Because there are no existing laws proves nothing, it’s a moot point, and a favorite distraction and rationalization made by this putz DC.

I would think that a “conscious being” who compares himself to Christ might be better able to inhibit and control impulses and behaviors which may turn out to be contrary to the good of another human being. Many people over the years have entrusted their “spiritual” well-being to this supposedly Christ-like “conscious being” and he has taken full advantage of that trust in the feeding of his own selfish appetites — there was never a second thought for the good of his students, or only insofar as they served his selfish needs and desires.

Burton is completely controlled by his appetites, his agenda vis-a-vis the FOLLOWSHIP is nothing more than feeding these appetites. Moral control, something Burton hasn’t a shred of, would mean in this case developming an ability to WILLINGLY overpower one stimulus to activity – which is activity contrary to the good of another – by an alternative stimulus which can be called the moral idea (i.e. an idea of an act for the good of another, or the greater good of all). A volitional process (“will power”) may be regarded as inhibiting the impulse which is opposed to it; Burton’s volitional process in this regard is totally defective, he lacks the will to overcome and control impulses which do damage to his students and by extension he does damage to the world, he is by definition a parasite, but hey, that’s not against the law either and as long as he can get away with it, with the help of his enablers, I’m sure he will carry on as he has for so many years now.

109. Spock - January 6, 2010

Now THAT would be consensual — fucking oneself.

It’s obvious this person is drinking the Kool Aid by the winery tank full.

110. Spock - January 6, 2010

108. apostate

Well said.

111. anna - January 6, 2010

Hello Walerider and thank you.

To tell the truth I don’t like it when people insult DC on the blog, even though he/she is shielded by a pseudonym. At least DC can take comfort that these attacks are not ‘personal’ because no one knows who s/he really is.

But apparently you do know who I am DC, so that was really low.

Sometimes contributors have spectulated about DC’s identity and they have mentioned possible names. That has also always been painful as these are often the names of people I have in some ways ‘loved’. Similarly many of the members portrayed in the YouTube video were also dear to me. The way that some contributors scoffed at them felt, well ‘dirty’. I have wanted to defend them, knowing that current members are deeply misguided, as I was.

I have also wanted to say that no matter how manipulative (and inadvertently criminal) the video may be, the beauty in my old friends faces is real, even if it is only a tiny part of them, a tiny sparkle floating above the shadowy oppressed side of their natures.

I have not wanted to defend DC’s persona, because the few things I have seen him/her write are so callous that I literally get a headache just seeing the name. But I have felt that some of the more brutal attacks against him/her were counterproductive At least from the perspective of my goal, which is to help current and potential followers to wake up to Robert Burton’s true nature, and to develop the strength and confidence to move away and forward.

When DC attempted to discredit me by lying in that insidious way, I prayed that he/she is not in fact one of my old friends, and that none of them would have stooped so low.

In fact I sometimes wonder whether he/she is a member at all, rather someone hired by the Fellowship of Friends to provoke anger on the blog in order to make it too unsavoury for current members’ sheltered tastes.

But my complaint about DC’s lie (I hope it was that and not a betrayal) is nothing compared to some of those who have actually been groomed and manipulated into performing sexual acts for Robert Burton, only to be confronted with his/her ‘formal’ refutations of their abuse.

Those men who have finally risen out of denial and faced up to what really happened. A friend who served Robert Burton closely for many years and left the Fellowship recently, admitted to me that he is now having regular nightmares about what happened to him in Robert’s hands and home. About the feeling of imprisonment. For victims like him, having DC refute their claims must be hell.

It’s a bit like dragging yourself into a police station after being attacked, only to have the policeman accusing you of “Asking for it”.

112. Spock - January 7, 2010

To Anna:
Maybe both are needed — both a caring touch with sympathetic words as you’re offering here, and occasionally more of a loud voice that crashes into the heart. Different things get the attention of different people at different times. Sometimes direct is needed; sometimes empathetic and indirect are needed.

Speaking for myself, as someone who is also not very far removed from those people you mention in the video, I absolutely appreciate both.

One thing some of us have hopefully learned from the FOF is that writing checks does not a true friendship make — nor does sharing fine dining and sitting together in a room on numerous occasions listening to proclamations that we believed we knew, but now we know we just believed.

But I like your words as they exude some of the love that many of us did experience — in our more poignant moments — despite the invisible (to us) cloud over the FOF.

113. Tatyana - January 7, 2010

“that we believed we knew, but now we know we just believed”

Awesome.

114. dick moron - January 7, 2010

More expert advise from Daily Cardiac.

115. X-ray - January 7, 2010

104. Daily Cardiac – January 6, 2010

‘..as there is no way of accurately distinguishing a “cult” from a non-cult. ‘

Sure there is, educate your self, you idiot.

116. X-ray - January 7, 2010

Dick Moron, you rock man!

117. Ellen - January 7, 2010

Dick Moron,
Fantastic youtubes. Rock on. I guess you can type!

Anna,
Thanks for your sincere post. #111. I hope that all can not only hear but also feel your words.

Sally McNally, #102
Yes. Openness means not excluding anything: neither the best nor the worst (of the Fellowship) and I am that. From that inclusive space it is possible to make a choice, but the choice is not possible if you exclude and buffer the semen that is in front of your nose. I heard a great quotation recently from a survivor of Auschwitz, Victor Frankl:

“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space lies our freedom and our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our happiness.”

118. WonderingWhosWatching - January 7, 2010

117. Ellen:
‘the choice is not possible if you exclude and buffer the. . .’
nose in front of one’s face.

Surprisingly, that nose is out there, in plain view, whenever the eyes are open; yet how often is it ever noticed?

It’s good to keep your self in view.

119. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 7, 2010

Do not believe in anything simply
because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply
because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply
because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely
on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions
because they have been handed down
for many generations.
But after observation and analysis,
when you find that anything agrees
with reason and is conducive
to the good and benefit of one and all,
then accept it and live up to it.

Gautama Buddha

120. veramente - January 7, 2010

111-117
Anna and Ellen, more moderate voices…
I hear you, but I cannot feel for many of such “friends” .
I have bitter memories of their shunning, their rigid views over the tenderness of feelings.
Some of them have become robots or first class enablers.
I pity their lifestyle with the constant effort to show only glitters really.
Underneath there is such poverty of spirit and loss of energy that is required for lying/sweeping under the rug/buffering (old word)/denial…
Some of them have literally given up/sold their souls to Vampire/Devil Robert Burton.

I know, I feel rather dramatic today!

121. sallymcnally - January 7, 2010

#120: If you see it in them, it is also within you. If you feel bitter for them, your bitterness runs deeper. Look within instead of trying to find it outside of yourself. The vulnerability you feel has deeper roots.

122. sallymcnally - January 7, 2010

Here’s something that has helped me. I don’t know who wrote it.

‘When we have discovered the Heart’s capacity to face any situation, the joys and sorrows of existence as they are, we awaken to freedom.

Then the golden lion speaks with a roar. Out of the mouth of the Lion comes the undaunted voice of truth, the liberation of the unbounded Heart.’

123. veramente - January 7, 2010

121 sallymcnally

Thank you; I am not sure what do you mean but I can feel your good intention to help me. Everything can be a mirror even for our worst nightmare.
We all react differently to situations and people and reactions are highly subjective.
In this case after watching the Thanksgiving lullaby from the FOF-Pathway of Presence I simply state my emotional reaction to something deeply wrong.
I do not carry it around.

124. brucelevy - January 7, 2010

123. veramente

I agree completely. To assume a statement here, with or without passion, defines the person’s life and burden is extremely myopic and self serving, and clearly, conveniently dishonest. On the other hand, I, personally, don’t give a shit what a loser thinks.

125. Silentpurr - January 7, 2010

120 veramente
I too agree with you.
Truth can be a bitter medicine for some. And it’s difficult to stay emotionally free from the distracting triangulations involving old friends.
The moral issue remains.
And the begging question is how FOF students can actually TRUST an
amoral “spiritual teacher”.
-seems like an oxymoron.

126. Tatyana - January 7, 2010

DC!
I had suddenly a flash in my brain last night and I realized who you are.
Why don’t you come out of the closet and reveal yourself? Do you tell your fellows “students” that you are writing on the blog?

You are emotionally centered passive type. You don’t have children. And you have some strange attitude towards sex. Because you get into other people’s (women mostly) business with your advices often when they have relationship problems. This is perhaps why you are still in FOF. You are a sex addict as many there.

Don’t you feel that you have wasted so much time in your life?

127. Opus 111 - January 7, 2010

Tatyana:

It may be best to call him up directly instead of continuing to feed pointless speculations about whom that person might be. We all know the persona DC pretty well through the writings.

128. paul g - January 7, 2010

Lapresenza, third eye

When Rainer Maria Rilke read his poems, he read them with BALLS. With real conviction, weight, power and thought. Real Feeling. He read his poems as a man, and not as a dreamer of effete occult callfornian fairy tales.

If students could simply try, one day, to read Rainer Maria Rilke aloud, as though he had a penis, conviction and dignity, they might one day get the liberation they so sorely long for.

And stop trying to be so profound, ya cunt.

129. paul g - January 7, 2010

sorry, I meant to say:

When Rainer Maria Rilke read his poems, he read them with BALLS, you fellowship spastic.

130. Daily Cardiac - January 7, 2010

Anna – 111:

You are still referencing your hurt in 111 but you did not acknowledge my apology. On top of that you’ve commended WR on his parody of my reply containing the apology. Is this your standard of forgiveness in general or just the standard reserved for FoF members?

Also you did not address my wondering of whether you changed your story from initially your experience to a retelling of someone else’s.

WhaleRider – 105:

You’ve informed us that it is against the law in Arkansas for a correctional officer or a clergyman to have consensual sex with anyone under their care or domain.

Can we assume from this that my conclusions pertaining to the other 49 states are accurate?

apostate – 108:

“DC continues to defend Burton’s depravity and his defective moral control based on the argument that there are no human laws which Burton violates. If Burton is (a priori) justified in doing whatever he so chooses, what difference should the laws make (?) Why even consider human laws, why does DC continually bring up the law in her justification of Burton’s dirty deeds?”

I’ve been bringing up “human” law as you put it because no one on this site has chosen to discuss RB / FoF in a spiritual context but continue to lump everything together under a perceived code of 20th century western morality. I’m only reminding people that even under that code he has not ever been charged with a wrongdoing.

I did address this topic more from a spiritual context in a detailed post on page 41.

131. Opus 111 - January 7, 2010

…because no one on this site has chosen to discuss RB / FoF in a spiritual context …

THAT is pretty funny.

132. Silentpurr - January 7, 2010

DC, you are very dark…

133. sharon - January 7, 2010

DC – relatively easy to check facts in this case, and tired of reading your statements regarding Anna’s veracity, so I went to look at the original from Anna. I don’t want to post it here without her permission, but she clearly states that the semen-on-the-breath anecdote was told to her by the friend who experienced it.

You could, of course, do your own research into her post. Actually, you probably should have done so before citing her.

134. apostate - January 8, 2010

DC writes
“…because no one on this site has chosen to discuss RB / FoF in a spiritual context…”

I don’t know what world DC inhabits but apparently she has not been following the conversation here. To paraphrase part of my previous post:

One would think that Burton — a so-called “conscious being” who along with his enablers compares himself to Christ — might be better able to inhibit and control impulses and behaviors which all too often turn out to be contrary to the good of another human being. Many people over the years have entrusted their “spiritual” well-being to this supposedly “Christ-like” figure and he has at every turn taken full advantage of and abused that trust in the feeding of his own selfish appetites. For Burton there was never a second thought for the good of his students, or only insofar as they served his own selfish needs and desires.

Burton is completely controlled by his appetites, his agenda vis-a-vis the FOLLOWSHIP is nothing more than feeding his insatiable appetites. Burton has never considered the consequences his actions have on others, and his followers mistakenly believe his condition of amorality is an indication of “higher being” – his followers mistake Burtons defective and deformed morality for something “high” when in fact it is just the opposite.

Moral control, is the ability to WILLINGLY overpower one stimulus to activity – which is activity contrary to the good of another – by an alternative stimulus which can be called the moral idea (i.e. an idea of an act for the good of another, or the greater good of all). A volitional process (will power) may be regarded as inhibiting the impulse which is opposed to it — Burton’s volitional process in this regard is damaged goods, he lacks the will, and he lacks the moral character required to be a “spiritual guide” — unless of course you are talking about the spirits of depravity, vanity, greed, false pride, etc, etc.

Burton is a fraud, he is completely at the mercy of his appetites, he is controled by his appetites and therefore he is infantile and helpless, unable to overcome and control impulses which do damage to his “students.” Burton does damage to the world, he is by definition a parasite, but according to the “rationale” of a DC, there are no laws against parasitism and so that justifies Burton’s amoral and depraved behavior toward others.

“Spiritual context” ?!? The spirit manifesting through Burton is a blight on society, it is to be avoided, it is woe to those who get sucked in.

135. WhaleRider - January 8, 2010

Daily Cardiac:

Yes, lo and behold, in the fine state of Arkansas, it is now a class C felony for a member of the clergy to sexually exploit those trusted in his or her care..and claiming the sex was consensual does not count as a defense.

Currently a former member of the clergy in that state who had sex with one of his parishioners is serving 40 years in prison for that crime.

I can think of no better sentence for colluding parishioners who enable such a rape, too.

Arkansas, of all places. Isn’t that interesting? I guess you missed the irony on that one.

So prostitution is legal in Nevada, too. What’s your point?

You made a sweeping statement about democratic laws that was inaccurate.

My point is that the moral grounds you are squatting upon are slowly eroding, “state” by “state”.

Times are changing, and we are witnessing the evolution of the definition of rape.

That’s what makes the Fellowship of Friends a Rape Factory, in my humble opinion.

As I am sure you are aware, when you were born a husband could not be prosecuted in the US for raping his wife. Did that make it OK?

Is that the kind of “Western Morality” to which you refer?

136. WhaleRider - January 8, 2010

Now that I think of it, in an ironic twist, the “shining” example of Robert Burton and his Fellowship of Friends is in a unique position to aid in the evolution of consciousness of all those “life people” he sat in judgment of for so many years regarding what constitutes sexual assault in the context of “a member of the clergy who is in a position of trust or authority over a victim and uses the position of trust or authority to engage in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual activity”.

Think of that…the raising of consciousness of ordinary people, our fellow humans. How sweet!

That’s what it takes to change or update laws, raising of consciousness.

That’s what everntually made the act of a husband raping his wife a crime…raising of consciousness. One “state” at a time.

137. Ellen - January 8, 2010

DC, #130
no one on this site has chosen to discuss RB / FoF in a spiritual context but continues to lump everything together under a perceived code of 20th century western morality

I guess you conviently forgot our long dialogue on non-duality?

138. hundredthousandangels - January 8, 2010

Gods Cricket Choir:

‘Let your Conscience be your guide.’
Jiminy Cricket

139. apostate - January 8, 2010

Yet another example of DC’s “selective” (read:defective) perception:

” I’m only reminding people that even under that code he has not ever been charged with a wrongdoing.”

Even if it WERE true that Burton had never been charged with breaking the laws, I believe there is no question of his wrong doing. WERE it true that Burton had never been charged with breaking the law, does that condone his wrong doing, his depravity and the damage he has done to others ? Burton abuses his power as leader, teacher and spiritual guide, his behavior leads to damaging actions toward his “students” and his amorality results in total disregard for the well-being of others

I say if DC’s claim here WERE true, but it’s not, I can think of three lawsuits to date:
S-m S-n-d-e-r-s,
T-o-m-s E-s-l-y,
T-o-y B-z-b-y
There are probably others I don’t know of (?)

Here’s a little history lesson, a not so refreshing “refresher” produced by a former “friend” from another site — warning, this may not be suitable viewing for the squeamish:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mannumbernine#p/a/u/1/mBPIjx4n6Qw

140. Jomo Piñata - January 8, 2010

Bonita (Student #1) felt RB had treated her dishonorably and retained Danish counsel. I do not think suit was brought, but I do think there was a demand and a settlement of some kind.

141. veramente - January 8, 2010

for Bobby Burton and the FellowShit of Friends and the Pathway to Pretense! (AKA Fellowship of Friends and Pathway to Presence, a Cult with Headquarters in Oregon House California by the name APOLLO.)

For the sweeter kind of fellow members of the cult I apologize for seemingly being harsh to your “beloved” teacher and organization.
I encourage you to pack and leave, life is much richer outside the little cult. Once I was like you: brainwashed and I believed everything I was told, or if I did not believed it I conveniently “buffered” it, at my expenses…

142. WhaleRider - January 8, 2010

“No one on this site has chosen to discuss RB / FoF in a spiritual context but continues to lump everything together under a perceived code of 20th century western morality.”

Great example of “framing”.

A picture looks different depending upon how you frame it.

To retain authority, those in power must control the frame.

No matter how you frame it, the truth remains the same.

In fact, the test of truth is that it reveals itself despite how you frame it, or in the FOF’s case, despite how they photoshop it.

The point is, there is no longer a spiritual context for the FOF, despite what they claim. It has turned into its opposite.

The only people who object to the word cult are those in one.

143. The Fellowship of Friends (Pathway to Presence) is a bunch of illusions - January 8, 2010

La presenza : user name at youtube where you can re-trace the videos…

And the website:

http://www.la-presenza.it/la-presenza.it/Welcome.html

144. brucelevy - January 8, 2010

139. apostate

Bravo.

145. hundredthousandangels - January 8, 2010

Calling All Angels –
Train –
God’s Ministering Messengers 4:16:

146. hundredthousandangels - January 8, 2010

Calling All Angels:

I need a sign to let me know you’re here
All of these lines are being crossed over the atmosphere
I need to know that things are gonna look up
Cause I feel us drowning in a sea spilled from a cup
When there is no place safe and no safe place to put my head
When you can feel the world shake from the words that I said

And I’m calling all angels
And I’m calling all you angels
And I won’t give up if you don’t give up
I won’t give up if you don’t give up
I won’t give up if you don’t give up
I won’t give up if you don’t give up

I need a sign to let me know you’re here
Cause my tv set just keeps it all from being clear
I want a reason for the way things have to be
I need a hand to help build up some kind of hope inside of me

And I’m calling all angels
And I’m calling all you angels

When children have to play inside so they don’t disappear
While private eyes solve marriage lies cause we don’t talk for years
And football teams are kissing queens and losing sight of having dreams
In a world where all we want is only what we want until it’s ours

And I’m calling all angels
And I’m calling all you angels
And I’m calling all angels
(I won’t give up if you don’t give up)
And I’m calling all you angels
(I won’t give up if you don’t give up)
Calling all you angels
(I won’t give up if you don’t give up)
Calling all you angels
(I won’t give up if you don’t give up)
Calling all you angels. . .

147. Spock - January 8, 2010

About 100,000 Angels above:
What’s the relevance? Got a point?

By comparison, I don’t mind “Daily Cardiac and Tag Team” taking up space here even if every word is complete nonsense: 1) They at least stay on topic, and 2) They evoke some informative and interesting responses.

—-

By the way, I have one moderately interesting story to tell about Robert Burton. It relates to the usual “rules” that he often sets — many of them seemingly coming out of nowhere, spontaneously and off the cuff. A few years ago, there was: “Robert has asked students not to fast.

The reasons behind the rule were conveyed to me second-hand, so feel free to confirm or deny. But the “vibe” behind it — in my opinion — has the ring of truth to it.

So… from what I heard at the time, a young male follower was invited to dinner “with Robert” and turned down the invitation. Since Burton obviously had some fun in mind with that guy, he was rather unhappy with the rejection. The reason for turning down the dinner invitation? The young male follower was fasting.

So Burton responded to that little episode by “asking” everyone in the cult not to fast.

Sure, it’s not really a big deal — most people weren’t fasting anyway, and those who were fasting probably didn’t mind the rule or just ignored it.

However, hat I find interesting in this episode, which is one of countless such little stories about Burton, are the obvious priorities that he reveals about himself.

People have very different ideas about fasting. Some may believe it’s unhealthy, but many believe it’s extremely healthy if done sensibly at the right time, and that fasting can have long-term health benefits for all — mentally, physically, and emotionally.

So the idea that Burton would outlaw fasting because one of his “friends” rejected him tells you a lot about how insecure and immature this man truly is — despite the outward act of piety and grace. It’s also another red flag that he has absolutely no concern about the health and welfare of his followers unless they serve some useful purpose for him to advance his agenda — which largely is to procure as much sex as possible with as many followers as possible no matter what the consequences to anyone.

148. brucelevy - January 8, 2010

144. hundredthousandangels

I’m pretty sure Train would be fucking irate that their song was used in conjunction with that crap.

149. another name - January 8, 2010

Spock, this is priceless, about the male who was fasting and had a good excuse not to show up for the “FUN”.

Do you know how the skirt exercise came about? Our dear Elena was working in the Rose garden in pants and very short hair. Robert thought she was a male and ask the short haired, pants wearing Elena, assumes she was a boy. The skirt exercise came about that same week.

Robert a conscious teacher, DC?

What about the smoking exercise which came out to increase the teaching payments? Anybody any more details on this matter ?

There must be hundreds of exercises like the above, coincidentally.(?)

Enjoy your life.

150. Spock - January 8, 2010

Smoking exercise: Somebody knows the hidden origins of that one. Again, the exercise itself never bothered me particularly, but, worth mentioning that saltpeter “is commonly used in pre-rolled cigarettes to maintain an even burn of the tobacco.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate

Who knows if that entered into Burton’s awareness at the time. And I don’t know if there’s any truth to the idea that saltpeter decreases sex drive, but the idea has been out there for a long time, and there’s so much garbage in our cigarettes and in our food that I’m sure a LOT of it decreases sex drive if consumed often enough.

Whatever Burton’s motives behind the no-smoking exercise, the interesting thing is that most of us never questioned these rules, never asked why, and always accepted the usual nonsense that Burton knows better and probably knows something we don’t, and of course was probably given a “shock” by influence C. So shut the fuck up.

And finally there’s always, “It doesn’t matter what his reasons are.”
“It doesn’t matter” is a great mantra for all cults.

“It doesn’t matter that Robert has sex with many men.”
“It doesn’t matter that Robert charges so much to remain in the school.”
“It doesn’t matter that Robert expels people who question his actions.”
“It doesn’t matter that Robert has inflicted damage — or tried to inflict damage — to previously monogamous relationships.”
“It doesn’t matter…”
“It doesn’t matter…”
“It doesn’t matter…”

“It doesn’t matter…”

“It doesn’t matter…”

151. Spock - January 8, 2010

another name: “Do you know how the skirt exercise came about? Our dear Elena was working in the Rose garden in pants and very short hair. Robert thought she was a male and ask the short haired, pants wearing Elena, assumes she was a boy. The skirt exercise came about that same week.”

That’s classic. It was obviously an embarrassing moment for Burton, because it exposed him as being rather clumsy and clueless, much like the rest of humanity can be at times. Damn, there’s goes that myth that he’s at a higher level of awareness, doesn’t make embarrassing mistakes, and more.

So in his embarrassment, what does Burton do? He accepts absolutely no blame or responsibility for his own clumsiness and lack of awareness, and instead assigns blame to the woman not wearing the dress.

It’s one of Burton’s most common habits, by the way: Trying to evoke shame and embarrassment…

The fasting follower shouldn’t have been fasting. Let’s create a rule that disallows fasting… They will be ashamed and embarrassed.

The young chain smoker can’t get it up? It’s not because the young man is confused, grossed out, and completely uninterested in having sex with Burton. Nope. He’s having trouble having an erection because he’s smoking too many cigarettes. So let’s create a new rule and shame the man at the same time.

“Enjoy your life” is a wonderful antidote to the above. Nothing is heavier to carry around than shame.

152. brucelevy - January 9, 2010

Smoking

I’ve mentioned this a couple times before. Some idiot student took it upon himself to estimate how much money was being spent in the FOF collectively for people’s tobacco habits (something in the hundreds of thousands). RB was always looking for new revenue streams to help when the school was “breathing in” (as they called loss of students), as opposed to “breathing out” (which was code for …where can we open a center that will have ignorant, greedy, narcissistic pretty young boys). Thus the exercise, and the estimate of how much additional money the FOF could redirect to RB’s coffer.

153. brucelevy - January 9, 2010

RB…always the altruist.

154. brucelevy - January 9, 2010

I just realized, the FOF is a reverse franchise. People work all over the world for nothing, while the CEO and the flying monkeys reap almost the entire financial largess, and RB can shamelessly replenish his harem, as the present crop reaches puberty and is no longer desirable.

155. brucelevy - January 9, 2010

“as the present crop reaches puberty and is no longer desirable.”

“puberty” being used figuratively, in most cases.

And plucking the young solars before they become too heterosexual.

156. waskathleenw - January 9, 2010

That pesky skirt exercise . . .

I was working in the vineyard one weekend during that time. Whatever it was I was assigned to do involved squatting, and there was tall grass between the vines.

Later in the day, someone mentioned that black widow spiders were sometimes found in the grass. I learned that the truly savvy women in the vineyard wore pants under their skirts.

To my knowledge, the skirted women working there weren’t told about this as a general precaution. I just happened to overhear about the spiders and about the panted skirts.

At the time, I hoped maybe the spider story was like a snipe hunting story, but years later I saw black widow spiders in the grass at a place where I lived. Yuck.

157. fofblogmoderator - January 9, 2010

143 is new

158. Silentpurr - January 9, 2010

I was happy to have the 3rd force to quit smoking completely. A friend, under stress, smoked only one. Feeling guilty, she told on herself and paid the fine. ( 1,000 dollars )? New York, 1980

159. X-ray - January 9, 2010

123. veramente – January 7, 2010

Totally agreed.

I’m just curious, who the fuck is this stupid asshole Daili Cardiac?
This person is simply unbelievable, I mean it.
Tatyana, if you know for sure who is it, why don’t you tell us? Who are you afraid of?

160. fofblogmoderator - January 9, 2010

#159 –

Not to sound like a dick, but the sheik himself stated in the ground rules posted above:

“as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.”

Let’s just leave it alone.

161. Daily Cardiac - January 9, 2010

Ellen – 137:

I didn’t forget. I don’t consider non-duality to be a spiritual topic. The very term “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual.” Think about it.

162. Bares Reposting - January 9, 2010

brucelevy on smoking: what you say about the revenue goldmine is my recollection, too, however, there was a lateral practical aspect: fire danger on the property. For those who may not know, the Sierra Nevada foothills (as well as most of California) can become very, very dry and high fire hazard in late summer and early autumn – especially around vineyard harvest time – can’t have anyone taking smoking breaks while working in those environments. Other precautions were also implemented to prevent fires.

156. waskathleenw: Besides the spiders, there were rattlesnakes, poison oak and thorned brambles (even, very rarely, scorpion – maybe ticks, possibly fleas) to contend with. Delicate parts don’t cotton to such exposure. Your time was an earlier incarnation of the instance mentioned above regarding Elena, I think. That later incarnation was not so much directed at women in places like the vineyard or winery but primarily to those that might be potentially seen or in contact with His Majesty. No skinny dippin’ neither, on those sweltering days.

163. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 9, 2010

La Presenza: introduzione:
[The Presence: introduction]
This page has a picture with a
sequence of facial images
implying that there is a lineage
that can be traced from Gurdjieff,
Ouspensky, Collin, Alex Horn*?
to Robert Earl Burton:

Do we suppose that this connexion is as vapourous as the smell of semen on someone’s breath?
Dubious at best? Hocus poke-us, now you see it; now you don’t!

* See next post.

164. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 9, 2010

On the post mentioned here before,
at page 85/#33,
Link titled:
‘Supping With Alex’
it says:
‘Alex Horn had “simian palms”. That is, the palms of his hands were flat and devoid of the lines fortunetellers read.’

Here is a page that describes what ‘simian’ may mean in this context:
http://www.handanalysis.com/simian.html

165. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 9, 2010

Here is a BabelFish translation of a La Presenza page:
Caratteristiche del lavoro di scoula
Characteristics of the work of school:

In a School we meet persons who have become account of the difficult condition of the human being and that they share our same scope. An important part of our job will consist in creating relationships with such persons, in learning from their experience and, to our time, in assisting those who will arrive after we. The school organizes various specific activities in order to favor these interactions. The degree of involvement in the School is our responsibility: we take the decision to enter and we decide how much to be involved ourselves in it. Nobody can make the job for we. Everyone proceeds with its rhythm. A school of the Quarter Via does not have never too many students, thus that the job can be individualizzato. The School supplies exercises and discipline that help to introduce and to support the knowledge. In the moment in which we begin to work practically with they, the ability is acquired to focus our efforts on the more useful and necessary exercises to our development. Since the Quarter Via “coexists every day” with the life, the exercises and the discipline aims more and more to introduce knowledge in those activities that of fact compose our personal life. The Job renders the ordinary miraculous. A School is composed from a Master and a stable “inner circle” of expert students. Whereby a master without an inner circle has itself only, for how much he can be advanced, is not in presence of a School, but of a “continuation”. A group of students with experience but without a conscious master is, in the best one of the hypotheses, a good group of introductory study. The Master is he who has caught up turned out permanent in the job. He establishes the character of the school, deciding some the structure and the instruction and preventing that it becomes rigid and institutionalized. Initially, its infuence catches up to us indirectly, for the fact that we work in the atmosphere from created he and only has relationships with its students. Successively, we will be able to enter in direct contact with he. The Schools of the Quarter Via change in the time, assuming new forms, adapted at the moment and the place in which they are manifested. The outer form changes, but the job remains essentially the same one. Our School is a contemporary expression of the tradition of the Quarter Via and offers methods in order to work every day in the modern life. Under this aspect, the Quarter Via is various regarding the other ways, since these are remained externally equal for centuries and millenia.

166. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 9, 2010

Here is a BabelFish translation of a La Presenza page:
Scuole del passato
Schools of the past

Nearly all this that remains of the esoteric traditions precedence has had origin from conscious Schools. Their message, survivor through the era under form of works of art, literature or rituali, originally was conceived in order to express a mean double quantity: inner and outer. The first era face to the personal development of the members, the second to the conservation of the tradition in the time. The inner meaning and that outer one differ mainly in their relationship with God, on the place in which it is “situate” this last one. The outer meaning identifies “God” in an external being to which obedience must or to which asking forgiveness. This implies rituali in order to feel sorry or venerare the divinity. The inner meaning characterizes the divine one in Advanced Himself “within” of we and it is focused in the attainment of such place. Consequently the rituali or the actions of” devozione” are inner and invisibili. With passing of the time and the lack of an aware guide, the inner meaning comes lost and remains only that outer one. This is the reason for which the generations that are approached to an esoteric tradition in a successive phase they can trovarvi, without exception, only the outer meaning. However, thanks to this, the form of the instruction comes preservata, and once that an other aware school emerges, it will be able to reveal of the hidden meanings and to use them for own scopes. Tomba an Egyptian, stupa buddhist or a Christian cathedral is all expressions of the art and science of the spiritual development, provided that the means are possessed in order to interpret them. Their outer forms are various, but their message – the inner meaning – is the same one. Traces of traditions of esoteric schools can be traced in: Preistorica art, Art Egyptian, Induismo, Taoismo, Buddismo, Buddismo Zen, Buddismo Tibetano, Giudaismo, Christianity, Mesoamericana Art, Sufismo, medieval Misticismo, Tarocchi. The scope of the Schools is, like always, to go beyond the outer meaning, to pick that inner one and to draw practical benefits us from this last one, extending it and using it in order to become conscious. Our role like School that belongs to this was modern is to trace and to comprise this that the traditions passages have left our benefit. This is the heart of our instruction.

167. anna - January 9, 2010

To Daily Cardiac,

When I wrote post 111 I hadn’t seen your post 97 inwhich you appologised. My mistake, and thank you for having done so.

168. anna - January 9, 2010

Dear Sharon,
Re 133, Please could you repost this, I would have but can’t find it. Thank you

169. Ellen - January 9, 2010

#161, Daily Cardiac,

“I don’t consider non-duality to be a spiritual topic. The very term “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual.” Think about it.”

Geez. Dumb me. I do think about it and I read a lot of intelligent people who also have thought and experienced a lot about it. I tend to think of non-duality as the essense of all spirituality. But, I guess you know something I don’t. So you’ve got me interested. Can you explain how “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual”?

170. veramente - January 9, 2010

161 dc

you are a hook, not pretty.

171. wingsspread - January 9, 2010

Anna 168:

You had copied it into your GF blog – I noticed at the time that it was word-for-word the same as your post to this blog.

“Have you ever sat next to Robert at an event and smelled semen on his breath?

A friend called me last year, she had decided to give her self a treat and go to an event. But her overwhelming experience was of revulsion. Instead of just living/riding the myriad of contradictions that the smell evoked she had tried to block it out; to re-model the present into a place where her beliefs could remain intact. She attempted to rationalise her self out of it: she kept telling herself how lucky she was, how she should focus on the ‘impressions’, how Robert was a conscious being, how there were certain things that she at her level couldn’t understand…

But the smell remained.”

172. veramente - January 9, 2010

166 WYLTK

Thank you for providing “La Presenza” Italian site translation.
Another cell for the Fellowship of Friends or Pathway of Presence in Europe. BUYER BEWARE!!!

173. The Fellowship of Friends (Pathway to Presence) is a bunch of illusions - January 9, 2010

Thanks for the translation… WYLTK…

Why do the FOF people need to hide the truth about their leader behind “angelic” images, if they is nothing wrong with the organization????

174. sharon - January 9, 2010

#171 above – sorry – wingsspread was an alias I used when I was afraid of antagonizing folks – nowadays I either don’t care, or don’t post.

175. dick moron - January 9, 2010

Hundredthousandangelfarts:

176. More history needed - January 9, 2010

The student with two daughters who was engaged with A.L in London, left London and might even left the fellowship of friends.

Thanks BLOG and….whoever.

Hope he does not find another girlfriend with children.

177. Silentpurr - January 9, 2010

169, Ellen
Could it be that Daily Cardiac’s spirituality RELIES upon duality? Awake/ asleep, esoteric/ exoteric, inner circle/ outer circle, inner meaning/ outer meaning, lower / higher……etc.

178. veramente - January 9, 2010

Sallymcnally,
after you recent post following mine, you got me thinking why I come here and have clarified for myself that the (mine) main purpose for continuing visit this blog is to denounce publicly the Fellowship of Friends, Pathway to Presence, La Presenza etc.,
The Internet is a great tool I did not have many years ago when I joined the Cult.
Even if someone joins today (why?), he or she would be very well warned with all the information available.
I imagine if in the prospective meetings the members advise/warn about “false” information on the Internet to the prospective “students” or more correctly prospective “suckers” (or to be sucked);
and if they do, in what way they talk about it, and if they are asked, what kind of prefabricated answers they give.

Maybe DC could chime in here…

179. apostate - January 9, 2010

165 & 166 WYLTK

An opinion regarding the La Presenza page:

180. WhaleRider - January 9, 2010

“I don’t consider non-duality to be a spiritual topic. The very term “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual.” Think about it.”

Daily Cardiac suggests you think about it because as you can tell, she certainly hasn’t.

She just thinks about only what she is told to think about.

There is no duality in the fourth state of consciousness.

But convince a person to divide themselves into separate parts (like higher/lower self or student/teacher) and you conquer their will and can control them by becoming the authority that dictates which part is which.

I agree with Silentpurr, cults like the Fellowship of Friends aka Pathway to Presence thrive on duality.

After all, there is only one Absolute.

BTW, for those of you who are signed up with a free Youtube account and would like to report videos by “lapresenza” as inappropriate and predatory which violates their community guidelines, directly below the Youtube viewing screen is the word “flag”.

Once you click on flag, a drop down box appears marked “select a reason”. When you put your cursor on “spam” you will see to the right that you can select the appropriate category called, “scams/fraud”.

Soon after you will receive an email from the “Youtube Team” thanking you for the flag. At that point you can reply to the email and elaborate on why you flagged the video with more information about this cult recruiting tactic with a link to the petition and/or this blog.

Flagging is confidential and only a problem if you flag a video more than once. If enough separate individuals flag lapresenza, then maybe Youtube will take a closer look. The fact that lapresenza posts phone numbers and email addresses stinks.

181. Old Fish in the Sea - January 9, 2010

Spirituality, which usually involves some sort of faith or belief in a higher power or intelligence, is generally considered to be a strength. In fact questioning the merits of faith or the existence of higher influence has an ostracizing effect in many circles, including the Fellowship.

Humans have been programmed through the centuries to believe that faith and spirituality are positive influences on life and are beyond reproach. It is considered to be at best inconsiderate to take away another person’s belief system. Even our laws in the United States provide tax advantages to religious organizations and make it more difficult to interfere with horrors committed for religious reasons. This has been Abraham’s primary defense of Robert. The belief that “my faith is the only correct faith” allows us to do harm to the “non-people” who do not share our worldview. Think of all the friendships that have been hampered by differences in spiritual belief.

Perhaps faith or spirituality is not a good thing at all.

One of the things that attracted me to the Fellowship was that I thought it offered a way to try to be a better person without having to put on blinders; to have community and individualism simultaneously. The concept “verify everything” was refreshing. I did not want to deny my reason. Fourth Way teachings seemed compatible and contributed to the knowledge that existed from all religions and from the scientific community. I saw it as a thinking man’s religion. There was a time when it was considered a lie to speak about what you could not know and this was specifically applied to speaking about higher influence. Somehow, I managed to buffer how often Robert spoke about things which time proved he did not and could not know. I had, through the influence of others, developed a faith in Robert and in the mission of the FOF and I dedicated my life to that faith. I believed Robert, to some degree, when he encouraged us to abandon our reason.

In my last breakfast with Robert, he mentioned that it was interesting that “We know so much more about Ancient art than the experts that have dedicated their lives to studying them.” This was in the same breakfast that he said “These (referring to bits of poop) ARE the sequence”. He said many things that were difficult to believe but the hypnotic effect was tangible. The appeal to spirituality above reason was disorienting. It is my opinion that Robert is delusional in the sense that he wants to see something and so he does see something whether or not it is true. And his conviction and certainty is so strong that his delusion becomes contagious. Perhaps I exaggerate a bit to make a point, but I sense that if you gave Robert a Rorschach Ink blot test he would see C-influence in all of the spots and use what he saw to make life-changing decisions that affect not only himself but his followers. If you gave him a million license plates he would interpret them as signs from above and use them to guide his life. His faith is that strong.

But my aim here is not to criticize Robert but rather to criticize faith. Faith, almost by definition, makes it ok to lie to ourselves. With Faith we tell ourselves that it is a strength to “believe” in the face of enormous contradictions. Faith erodes our own sense of responsibility to use our best reason to make decisions for ourselves and the good of others.

I have personally had mystical experiences; at the time they felt real and I was proud of them. I felt unity (the lack of duality) in everything. I was overwhelmed by the beauty and connectedness of the grand creation. Interestingly, being in the Fellowship did not really promote these kinds of states, but did promote sacrifice in their name. I believe these states have a place. They do open our perceptions. But it is incorrect and harmful and in fact diminishes those states, to seek them at the expense of our own reason and sense of responsibility. It diminishes the truth of those states to connect them with God. The belief that these states are connected to higher intelligence gives them a magical power to delude, overriding reason and promoting a feeling of being chosen.

With respect to DC’s contention that we have not discussed Robert/FOF in a spiritual context, I think it is pretty obvious that this is not entirely true. In any case, it is not easy to refute spirituality with reason since spirituality tends to see reason as subversive. More to the point, it is impossible to refute spirituality with spirituality. That is essentially saying my faith is better than yours. But reason and rational thought can evaluate whether actions express good judgment, respectful behavior, the good of the community, and compassion for all people.

I question whether it is useful to give spirituality and faith a positive spin, since so many horrible acts have been done in the name of faith. Hitler felt that Providence supported his goals. Robert feels that Providence supports his behavior. Joshua felt that God wanted him to murder every man, woman and child when he took Jericho. Isaac almost murdered his son in the name of faith. The list is as long as history.

But there is no question that the FOF promotes faith in Robert. Some good may have been done in the name of Robert. But anything that divides people breeds inhumanity. DC feels that he has been attacked by those not in the FOF. That may be true, but whichever side you are on, where does the resentment of those on the other side of the line come from? FOF programming fortified that line and we all sense the division between in and out. Religion and spirituality, to the extent that they revere faith above reason, and to the extent that they create divisions between people, may not deserve the respect that we often give.

Is it possible to be spiritual without faith and trust in imaginary powers that very well may not exist? Is it possible to be spiritual without feeling superior to those that are not or choose a different path? I believe that it is possible to be full of wonder without adding spiritual baggage.

182. sallymcnally - January 9, 2010

#123 Veramente:

I did and still do carry lots of emotional baggage from my 20 years in the Fellowship. The healing continues.

So if you don’t think my blog post pertains to what you’ve experienced, that’s quite alright with me. Somebody probably does who reads this blog and can receive help from it.

My aim in writing on this blog is different than yours. I write to help people who may need it. If some benefit, then I’ve done my job. I still feel that leaving the Fellowship is a process and people leave when they’re ready and join if they want. There’s plenty of folks I’ve met who have come and gone through different cults and allowed themselves to be taken in by a charismatic leader. I am only one of many.

183. Yesri Baba - January 9, 2010

179 Apostate

Thank you for showing me the sequence!

You also taught me about non-duality. I now see how all the shit comes from a single asshole.

184. Golden Veil - January 10, 2010

*

88/181 Old Fish in the Sea

“Is it possible to be spiritual without faith and trust in imaginary powers that very well may not exist? Is it possible to be spiritual without feeling superior to those that are not or choose a different path? I believe that it is possible to be full of wonder without adding spiritual baggage.”

The perceptive voice of Reason with a true sense of Wonder.

Thank you for your entire post, Old Fish in the Sea.

You have brought Light to some of the murky dark depths that surround the shore of the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog.

*

185. X-ray - January 10, 2010

160. fofblogmoderator – January 9, 2010

I disagree with you on that and here is why:

DC is defending a criminal and evil person, who does not play by the noble rules.
That’s exactly what Burton was counting on for all those years, and that’s exactly why he didn’t get to jail so far. The nobility of the people have helped him to stay out of jail, and this IS his main card, and NOT an imaginary ‘king of heart’, as he falsely claims. If you take this card away from him, you leave him naked.
DC is just as criminal in his psychology as Burton, the only difference between them, is that DC is playing passive role.
What I’m against is libel, and that’s why I’ve asked Tatyana to tell us who he/she is, if she knows that for sure.
The game is fair only when all players playing by same rules.

186. X-ray - January 10, 2010

179. apostate – January 9, 2010

Well, it should be taken literally here, since that’s what Burton calls a sequence.

187. X-ray - January 10, 2010

171. wingsspread – January 9, 2010

Well, she is real stupid.

188. Spock - January 10, 2010

177. Silentpurr
“Could it be that Daily Cardiac’s spirituality RELIES upon duality? Awake/ asleep, esoteric/ exoteric, inner circle/ outer circle, inner meaning/ outer meaning, lower / higher……etc.”

——–

Silentpurr, you roar again. Right on.

us/them
saved/doomed
possibilities/no possibilities
positive/negative
in/out
student/life person
student/ex-student
obedient/disobedient

Also, duality is based upon shortages and limitations. There’s only a certain amount of awakening to go around. Get it while you have a chance. You can only get it here, and you can’t get it there. And… there’s only a certain amount of knowledge to go around (Ouspensky wrote of this). You get it today, but not tomorrow. You get it from this person, but not from those people.

And all of those attitudes lead to a view of the world where the ends justify the means. We’re in a desperate situation. It’s based on fear.

189. Spock - January 10, 2010

179. Apostate and 175. Dick Moron YouTubes

LOL. Are we having fun yet?

I think it’s funny when people suggest that writing to the blog is an “obsession” or “burden.” Are they kidding? My time in the FOF was the obsession and My time in the FOF was the burden.

THIS is a lot of fun. Thank guys, all of ya.

190. Silentpurr - January 10, 2010

Yes Spock, much better than meetings!
I’m wondering if a primal anxiety of the fear of DEATH drew us and held us in RB’s comforting vision of immorality? immortality/ mortality

191. Spock - January 10, 2010

Silentpurr: Actually, yes.

Fear — and fear of death in particular — is where religions start, and where cults start. Combine that with the realization that it’s a good tool for controlling people and controlling the wealth, and away we go…

I was walking along the street one day and saw a logo up close for an Italian sports car — Alfa Romeo. The logo is supposedly based on the coat of arms of the “House of Visconti” — an Italian dynasty of the middle ages. Depending on your interpretation, it shows a man being swallowed by a serpent, or a child being born out of the serpent, or who knows. Whatever it is, it’s pretty weird for a 21st automobile. Check it out sometime.

What immediately impresses me about this logo is how “culture” (religions, cults, commerce, the arts, and so on) over the centuries has delved so deeply into superstition and secrecy. Why? Part of it is this… Guys with a lot of power and money realized at some point that no matter how much money and no matter how much power they had…

…they still died. And their loved ones still died.

Their egos didn’t like it, so over the many centuries we’ve come up with detailed explanations for what happens to you when you die. There’s nothing the ego likes better than to tell people around you that you — and you alone, or those who listen to you — have found the key to immortality. All of you losers out there who have no idea what the mysterious Alfa Romeo logo means are left out in the cold. Good luck when YOU die.

What’s more, having money and power usually meant you had an inside track to heaven, and the more you got people to believe that, the more you got money and power… You were connected to secret, esoteric knowledge, and you knew some things all of those peons out there didn’t know. This is the impulse behind Burton starting a cult, and more recently his relentless attempts to interpret what he believes are hidden meanings in ancient images. In some cases, the origins and meanings behind old symbolism is actually pretty interesting, but pretending that you know exactly what they mean, or that they mean anything at all, is part delusion and part deception and lying.

I’m sure Burton may even pretend to “know” exactly what the Alfa Romeo logo means, and who created it and why. Even if it’s pretense, if he can convince someone that he knows, this impresses someone, and it gives him a sort of power over them. That’s the impulse behind his obsession with it.

Making people believe that you knew and understand something special — and that they don’t — is a great way to exert control over them, and to evoke fear. So, you have “badges” and “logos” like the Alfa Romeo logo, which evoked fear, and a sense that the people behind it knew something special and that you’d better listen to them.

As little as I know about “non-dualitistic” teachings, I do sense that non-duality gives you a breather from this sort of fear. With it, you can still have a sense of mystery, wonder what happens to you and your loved ones after death, ponder the idea of God and spirituality, enjoy the beauty of this world, treasure your friendships… but you can think about these things without starting a war, subjugating people, hating anyone, or being afraid of the unknown.

Ah, the unknown… “leaving the school”.

You can sense that maybe there actually are angels, but you don’t pretend you really know anything about them anymore than anyone, or that you know they exist at all, and you don’t try to shame anyone who thinks otherwise, and you don’t try to make them afraid. You can imagine an afterlife and imagine a meaning to this life, but you can do it without pretending you have it figured out, and especially that you have it figured out alone — your group, your tribe, your nation, your cult, your religion, and so on.

192. Yesri Baba - January 10, 2010

Natalie Portman plays my brain after a DC or La Penisna post-

193. Yesri Baba - January 10, 2010

Click on ‘Natalies Rap’ thumbnail.

194. X-ray - January 10, 2010

It’s La Penista, Yesri.

195. laura - January 10, 2010

Natalie rules…
And I am so happy to visit here and see that the blog still rocks!
Thanks to the oldtimers and new arrivals and a very vibrant new year to y’all

196. apostate - January 10, 2010

Yesri
Natalie is da bomb

Spock 189
Upon reflection, one of the main reasons I left the Followship had to do with a deep unarticulated dissatisfaction. As I became “assimilated” (pun intended), the fun and simple joy in life was systematically drained from living, fun was strangled, eliminated by “the system” and over the years the world according to Burton became increasingly onerous and I became ever more dour, depressed and self-destructive. At some point, despite the fears of “life” and the “damning” consequences of leaving “the school,” fears which were instilled in me during my internment in the FOLLOWSHIP, despite these fears I had to jump ship, I couldn’t live like that any longer.

Here’s to belly laughs, fun, joy and the occasional ecstatic state:

197. veramente - January 10, 2010

Apostate,
you rock!
I share with you the feelings of having somehow been drained of all joys while sacrificing my life for Robert Burton.
Glad you are also out of the Cult and feeling ALIVE.

198. brucelevy - January 10, 2010

195. apostate

I especially liked Yoko singing back up.

199. X-ray - January 10, 2010

195. apostate – January 10, 2010

Yes, apostate, it is funny, great and true.

200. fofblogmoderator - January 10, 2010

#195 is new

201. Spock - January 11, 2010

196. apostate.

awesome!

202. Ellen - January 11, 2010

#161, Daily Cardiac,

You said:
“I don’t consider non-duality to be a spiritual topic. The very term “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual.” Think about it.”

I responded:
“I do think about it and I read a lot of intelligent people who also have thought and experienced a lot about it. I tend to think of non-duality as the essense of all spirituality. But, I guess you know something I don’t. So you’ve got me interested. Can you explain how “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual”?”

I’m still hoping you can enlighten me on this subject. It’s got me worried that I might have made a big mistake in leaving the Fellowship! On the other hand, it could be a case of: open mouth, insert foot? Whaddya think?

203. Yesri Baba - January 11, 2010

204. another name - January 11, 2010

Dear veramente 179.

I wonder too, why do I like to check in here….

Connection with a world that was?

Yes, helping to inform others of the Fellowship of friends, pathway to presence….then I wonder is this a useful strategy? Are there no better ways then reading and posting here?

i am less naive now and know that crime is part of live. Trauma is part of life as to come to transformation? A friend pointed this out ot me and so does Martha Beck in her book” follow your North star” ).

Yes ..helping people….maybe I should help my self first or too or am I already helping myself?

Dear Veramente, i do not have the answer and guess I live with it and go outside and feel the wind and listen to..and ask myself what are my motives?

Have a healthy pondering day.

205. sallymcnally - January 12, 2010

‘Most of the shadows of this life are standing in our own sunshine ‘ Emerson.

206. X-ray - January 12, 2010

Burton is an evil in the society which must be expelled.
Evil fought with Truth and Justice.
Truth to Burton like a sunlight to a vampire. He can’t stand it. He gets burned.
Keep shining the Truth upon this criminal until he gets to jail.

207. Tatyana - January 12, 2010

181. Old Fish in the Sea

Thank you for your thoughts. When I finished reading it my eyes fell on the article in the newspaper “The man without faith is nothing”

It is a very interesting topic. I remember I was impressed once by what Gurdgieff said about faith:

“Faith of consciousness is freedom
Faith of feeling is weakness
Faith of body is stupidity.”

To me right now faith means a positive attitude towards the goal.

When faith replaces a common sense and consience it is tragic.

On another subject.
What I find confusing these days however is this. I know a lot of people who made a huge sacrfice for Robert and later regreted it. To the point of a depression. Like my friend who was Robert’s sex slave for years. He asked me once – if you met a master in painting who would teach you with only one condition – if you sleep with him – would you do it?

I said – hell no.

But I saw that he did not believe me.

People who give their body to Robert – they sacrifice so much. Yet in the moment of the deal I don’t think they know what they are giving away.

For example, if they had a property to give away, they probably would not give it so easily. But sex? This is a confusing area – who is giving and who is gaining? Yet, at the end a lot of them end up depressed, confued, vioalted and empty.

I think it is similar with prostituets – at first it seems an easy business – you don’t need to have skills or get hired. But at the end it is a tragic life, crashed life.

208. apostate - January 12, 2010

Tatyana 207
Thank you for your thoughts.

The part of your post about Gurdjieff on faith:

“Faith of consciousness is freedom
Faith of feeling is weakness
Faith of body is stupidity.”

I’m skeptical of this formulation on faith and I have serious doubts about anyone who would place FAITH in GURDJIEFF before their own experience and thought process.

Call me ‘weak’ but I trust my feelings. Call me ‘stupid’ but I consider my body to be the ‘ground’ of my air-breathing existence through which I am able to experience the miracle of life.

Your post reminded me of this:

“The Guru and his teachings are always right, above criticism and beyond reproach. In some cults, the guru is dead, but the principle is the same. In many cults the charismatic leader has the title of minister, priest, yogi, swami, prophet, all-knowing wise man, etc. In any case, the leader is always right, the teachings of the guru are always right, and when he dies, his writings become holy scriptures, infallible and unquestionable. The guru’s church is always right, the guru’s successors are always right and everything about the cult is always right. The degree to which the cult glorifies the leader is often absurd.”

209. veramente - January 12, 2010

195 Laura-lupa

Nice of you to drop a visit here. I remember how much fresh energy and music you contributed. See you around! : )
———————–
204 Another name
thank you for your post and kindness. I think this blog is a red flag for the FOF-Pathway of Presence. The GF is a closed doors site and discussions are possible in there too.
Either way I prefer to come here and let it all out!

210. surelyujest - January 12, 2010

207 Tatyana

“For example, if they had a property to give away, they probably would not give it so easily. But sex? This is a confusing area – who is giving and who is gaining? Yet, at the end a lot of them end up depressed, confued, vioalted and empty.”

I think a lot of this is related to the attitudes we cultivated about “the machine” and how worthless it was. When you develop an essentially negative attitude toward your body, it is easier to do things that require a loss of self-respect.

I think Robert Burton found his gold mine when he discovered that he could lead an organization based on principles of discounting the worth of the body, “going against the machine,” when what he most wanted was…bodies.

211. veramente - January 12, 2010

“Faith of consciousness is freedom
Faith of feeling is weakness
Faith of body is stupidity.”
—————————–
I can see now how the above sounds like a mental propaganda that excludes critical thinking. When I first read it yesterday it startled me.
My knee jerk reaction to the authoritarian and all inclusive truth sounding order was to doubt myself. Words like those above can put me on a slight “freeze”. Good to see this and move on and beyond towards trusting oneself. (thank you Apostate)

212. Silentpurr - January 12, 2010

Daily Cardiac if you are still here,
it’s not too late to begin anew.

213. Ellen - January 12, 2010

DC,
I hope you have not left the sandbox, leaving me high and dry. I’m awaiting for your scintillating reposte describing how “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual”. In the mean time, can’t sleep, can’t eat. What a mess!
Help, Cecil, help!

214. surelyujest - January 12, 2010

“Seeing meaningful information in meaningless data is a psychological effect known as pareidolia or apophenia and this is an example that was published in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine in 1996:”

The case of the haunted scrotum

http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2010/01/the_case_of_the_haun.html

The same psychological effect that lets one “verify” C influence through license plates, along with most other 4th Way silliness.

215. surelyujest - January 12, 2010

In fact, that is an excellent definition of the 4th Way in the Fellowship of Friends: Seeing meaningful information in meaningless data.

216. X-ray - January 13, 2010

212. Silentpurr – January 12, 2010

Daily Cardiac if you are still here,
it’s not too late to begin anew.

I’m afraid for him it is to late.

217. Dennis - January 13, 2010

“In properly organized groups no faith is required; what is required is simply a little trust and even that only for a little while, for the sooner a man begins to verify all he hears the better it is for him.” Gurdjieff from In Search.

My “little trust” for a “little while” lasted twelve years. I guess some of us are just slow learners.

218. Old Fish in the Sea - January 13, 2010

217 Dennis: “Some of us are slow”

It is interesting how faith sneaks up on you. I never thought of myself as having faith. I was as against faith while in and often spoke against it as a principle. It is only after leaving that I see that I had developed a kind of faith in the FOF dream that somehow disallowed me from seriously considering leaving. It was hard not to believe the dream when so many of my friends believed in it, and so I convinced myself that I had verified the truth of the FOF and probably encouraged others to believe it. My staying was not based on faith (or was it).

Dennis, you and a few others introduced me to the 4th way and to the FOF. It is partly the impression that you and a few others made that gave me the “faith” to stay in for 31 years. I strongly remember a work day in Miami. You were center director and assembling a small motor on a towel on the lawn. I was cutting the grass. I thought I should ask you to move. You were the alpha male there and I was a completely new student. You seemed to be deeply into your task and moving meant picking up all the pieces. I feared asking you to move, but the instant I asked, you moved with no hesitation and zero resistance -not a single ‘just a minute’ or hint of irritation. I was impressed and that served me with a verification of the effectiveness of the work. You put my needs ahead of your own and I knew that was rare.

It is not easy for some of us to switch direction so easily.

Marty A. spoke to me about how she had come to distrust Robert just before she left. I thought she had lost it. I was not ready at that time.

D-Bol-ton sent me a nice letter when she left encouraging me to leave. I read it and was affected but put it down feeling that I did not have the energy to deal with “all those thoughts right now” . Before long I had forgotten her letter and stayed another 15 years or so. I guess that little bit of laziness on my part cost me about $150,000 not to mention thousands of hours of volunteer work. Not that it was a total loss but I do regret the fact that I could not give the option of leaving more serious attention. What was it in me that was afraid to use my best judgment to seriously consider the merits of staying or leaving?

I have heard that M-Eroy has recently had a serious stroke. I am sorry for him and sorry that he did not venture out before that happened.

Bruce left early (I was shocked) but he has since rejoined.

Mark will probably never leave. He told me that I had too much trust in life and that I should reserve my energy for the FOF. When I thanked him for his comment he proudly said that I was a survivor.

And Dear Elena, I remember your story about the speeding ticket when heading east towards Miami to open the center and those days at the Jewish fast food restaurant when I was not a student, but watched you trying to figure out what was behind the quiet intentionality that you and others expressed in your body language.

You were my initial FOF influences and I think of all of you fondly. Perhaps we followed the wrong leader, but there was value in some of our exchanges. But I am glad to be out and on my own, to think in my own way, live in my own way and grow in my own way. Thanks to each of you for contributing.

219. WonderingWhosWatching - January 13, 2010

88/185. X-ray:

‘DC is just as criminal in his psychology as Burton, the only difference between them, is that DC is playing passive role.

What I’m against is libel, and that’s why I’ve asked Tatyana to tell us who he/she is, if she knows that for sure.
The game is fair only when all players playing by same rules.’

DC is just as criminal in his psychology as Burton, the only difference between them is. . . SCALE. And, applying the same idea up the chain of SCALE: Burton is just as criminal in his psychology as Hitler, the only difference between them is. . . SCALE.

– – – – – –

88/189. Spock:

‘I think it’s funny when people suggest that writing to the blog is an “obsession” or “burden.”’

Didn’t you mean: ‘I think it’s funny when people suggest that writing to the blog is an “obsession” of “Burton.”’

– – – – – –

88/191. Spock

‘if he [Robert Earl Burton] can convince someone that he knows, this impresses someone, and it gives him a sort of power over them. That’s the impulse behind his obsession with it.’

Precisely, the A Influence of the Fellowship of Friends (Pathway to Presence, La Presenza) is to have power and influence over other people. (Fourth line of work: Work ON other people.) And of that, Robert Earl Burton is a glutton (read: obsession); to which most others in authoritative roles in Fellowship of Friends (Pathway to Presence, La Presenza) aspire.

– – – – – –

88/210. surelyujest

‘when what he most wanted was…bodies.’

Yes, that’s it! The Fellowship of Friends (Pathway to Presence, La Presenza) has the primal curse of The Body Snatcher:

Notice how much Robert Earl Burton looks like Boris Karloff.

– – – – – –

Old Fish in the Sea:

Thanks for your speaking your truth.

220. Jomo Piñata - January 13, 2010

Old Fish, I just want to say how much I enjoyed your appreciations, expressed here, of Dennis, Elena, and your other friends.

221. Dennis - January 13, 2010

Old Fish, thank you for your kind words. I feel that my play was, and is, totally mechanical. I just appreciate the fact that my play, and yours, allowed us to graduate.

222. X-ray - January 13, 2010

219. WonderingWhosWatching – January 13, 2010

You are correct, it is about scale.
DC, Burton and Hitler are sharing same mentality. Burton would do to the ex-members same what Hitler did to jews, if he would have as much power as Hitler had.
DC would rape and rob his students same as Burton does if he would run the cult.
All criminals alike, they have no conscience.

223. Elena L - January 13, 2010

Old Fish in The Sea
Thank you for recalling memories of the Miami Center. When I look back at those years I smile, remembering the wonderful energetic people, and freshness of the Ideas! It was the high point of my Fellowship years.

224. Spock - January 14, 2010

x-ray. For someone just escaping the insanity of the FOF, it seems like a brutal assessment that Burton and DC have no conscience. But that’s what helps them deceive people — that others believe they do have a conscience, and actually cannot imagine otherwise. (“Well, doesn’t everyone have one?”) Well, no, everyone doesn’t. That deception is huge. It gives them power over the naive — that being me at one time.

Also, it seems like a brutal assessment to call the FOF “insane.” Didn’t we have these wonderfully calm meetings where everyone smiled and spoke with “intentionality” and listened to fine music and viewed fine art (well some of it was “fine”), and had wonderful “states.”

Yes, we did. And it was insane. We deceived ourselves. We looked out over crowds of people in city squares, and said to ourselves, “Look at those sleeping people,” (because that’s what you do in the FOF), but until we wised up and put one foot out the door, we couldn’t look at an FOF crowd, and say, “Look at US sleeping people.” We couldn’t acknowledge to ourselves that it’s all a mirage, built on deceit, and the furthest thing from love, conscience, consciousness, and awareness — the furthest thing from the divine, the furthest thing from presence and certainly the furthest thing from any “pathway” to it.

225. Spock - January 14, 2010

When and if we did experience “presence” in the FOF, we mistakenly assigned credit to the FOF, and to Burton. But it was actually an impulse within ourselves to be alive and to thrive — an expression of our true selves — a tiny plant trying to grow through a crack in the FOF pavement.

What we already had within us when we joined the FOF, was lured down the wrong road. In some cases, it became perverted, twisted, and malformed. In other cases, its growth stifled — rising up occasionally, only to be pushed back down. It’s one of those FOF myths that the positive experiences we had in the FOF could not have happened elsewhere. It’s hard to know where to begin to describe just how absurd and tragic it is that we believed that.

And even more tragic… Those “finer energies” and “higher hydrogens” and “higher forces” are actually more numerous and accessible in the world at large. Again, how absurd that we believed otherwise.

226. X-ray - January 14, 2010

Burton is a deadly virus which must be contained.
This contamination cannot be continued.
He must be locked in jail.

227. Elena L - January 14, 2010

Robert is the classic ‘Crazy Maker’. Like an insane parent, the closer you are to their proximity, the more you have to put up with their demands. In the Centers, he only made Crazy with our money, gracing us with an occasional Crazy Making visit.

228. WhaleRider - January 14, 2010

Fellowship Refuses Federal Money

WASHINGTON (URP!) — President Obama’s newly revamped Office of Faith Based Initiatives is reigniting a contentious debate across the ideological spectrum over whether religious organizations that accept funds from the government should be allowed to discriminate when hiring or firing.

President Bush issued an executive order in 2002 that allowed these groups to continue their practice of discrimination with respect to hiring or firing.

In an executive order to be announced on Thursday, Obama does not rescind Bush’s provision to allow faith-based groups to discriminate in their hiring and firing practices, but does provide a legal process for organizations to go through in order to that ensure hiring or firing is legal and non-discriminatory.

But Dr. Joel Hunter, a senior pastor at Northland Church in Longwood, Florida, who will be part of a 25-member council of religious leaders in the faith-based office, said the issue is a particularly tricky one for religious leaders.

“We’re going to have to work that out, because on the one hand, you don’t want to use federal funds to discriminate. But on the other hand, we can’t have religious organizations taking money on the condition that they will hire or fire people who live a lifestyle contrary to what they teach,” he said.

Many of the organizations like The Fellowship of Friends who object to the new direction carry policies against hiring outside their religion, like the hiring of non-followers whose western morals conflict with church doctrine of required gay sex with the elderly leader and firing those who resist.

Daniella Cardiac, Spokesfollower of the exclusive Fellowship cult says no thanks and claims they don’t need the money. “We have enough (money) stashed in overseas banks,” she said, “and we’d like to continue our discriminatory and sick practices with any governmental intervention.”

When asked about the Fellowship’s objections, in a recent speech at the East Side Community Ministry, Obama said, “If you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to indoctrinate the people you recruit in your cult, then turn around and discriminate against those who disagree with you on the basis of their religion, sexual preference or fire them just because they have higher moral standards than yours. We don’t give money to cults anyway; they aren’t really religions in the first place.”

229. Spock - January 14, 2010

x-ray: “He must be locked in jail.”

Not saying I wouldn’t welcome that chain of events, but I’m mostly concerned with making sure there’s readily available information for people who are thinking about joining this organization, and the same for present followers in the cult, because that’s what has given him his power over the decades — the lack of readily available information, and the persistent “messaging” that he uses to brainwash people, almost like an advertisement on television — repeat, repeat, and repeat again. It helps to have the GF site, the blog, and an increased word of mouth between followers and ex-followers.

At 70 years old, Burton may pass away at any time, never to suffer any sort of consequences for his behavior — who knows. But keep in mind that he’s living a risky lifestyle. It may be just a matter of time before he suffers the consequences with our without being “locked in jail”, and the same may be true for those around him. Also, as fewer people support him, the harder it becomes for him. Right now, I’m sensing that his power over people is weakening, and increasingly so each and every day that goes by.

230. Tatyana - January 14, 2010

Yesterday Gurdgieff Foundation was celebrating Mr. G. birthday and I got invited to the dinner there.

I am beginning to understand what’s going on with me when I attend their gatherings. Despite the fact that I like and respect people “in the Work” after a few minutes I am becoming wierded out and almost psychotic. I think what happens is that I am entering my “work personality” as soon as I hear 4th way ideas and immedeately begun to compare FOF and GF. As a consequence I judge them for being “wrong” because they do not have the same familiar manifestations such as:
– not working with gold alchemy during the dining event;
– not talking about C Influence
– not talking about Will of the Teacher
– not giving photographs,
– not being “emotional” (not hugging, kissing, staring etc)
– not giving up their will but trying to develop one
– not stopping thoughts but trying to have good ones
– not making a mix of all different esoteric traditions, but study a Gurdgieff’s method

and on top of the not answering questions or giving “angles”. Now, how weird is that?

Yet, I can totally sense that these people are working on themselves, very attentive, intelligent, quiet and intentional.

One person asked me if in FOF I had any dinners “like this”. Man… you can imagine how many things I wanted to tell him at once! He was amused about price and standrards and I assured him that there are a lot of even more amusing things about FOF. I did not want to go into sex subject…

They sat in the circle (like in FOF) and read a few pages from Beelzebub Tales (not like in FOF), but I noticed that the bookmark in the book said “sequence”. I hope I am not loosing my marbles…

231. Daily Cardiac - January 14, 2010

Ellen – 169:

“I tend to think of non-duality as the essence of all spirituality. But, I guess you know something I don’t. So you’ve got me interested. Can you explain how “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual”?”

The comment was this: ” I don’t consider non-duality to be a spiritual topic. The very term “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual.”

What I meant was: To speak of spiritual matters already implies its opposite, that which is not spiritual – that which is carnal or corporeal. And we are then thrust into the world of duality. If Man is truly a micro-cosmos he is a mirror of a universe which is dualistic in that it contains opposing forces. Man can only relate to the world in terms of dualities.

Nature expresses itself in terms of duality. A place cannot occupy both north and south together. The mind, aside from errant exceptions, cannot conjure something that is both hot and cold, fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly, light and dark, etc. If man is a micro-cosmos all that is found outside of us is also within. The kingdom of God (heaven) is within, and so is “hell” and “the devil.” These are all expressions of duality. Every esoteric tradition expresses the spiritual journey in terms of duality. The image of a journey is also an expression of duality: Where you are now vs. where you are going. The beginning and the destination occupy different realms and are expressions of duality.

WhaleRider’s #180 is a classic illustration of the same logic used by non-dualists to misinterpret reality and come out the other side in a “non-dual” world.

WhaleRider – 180:

“There is no duality in the fourth state of consciousness. But convince a person to divide themselves into separate parts (like higher/lower self or student/teacher) and you conquer their will and can control them by becoming the authority that dictates which part is which.”

It is true that there is no duality in the fourth state of consciousness; we are “one” when we ascend to the Self and reunite with the Self’s divine origin – a deity. But how do we get to the fourth state? We get there by transcending duality. Duality does not cease to exist but rather we cease to believe in it. We cease to dwell there. And how do we cease to dwell there? By making precise and sustained efforts to oppose the forces in us that are opposed to the fourth state. If there were no opposing forces we would be there effortlessly and we would stay there effortlessly if we arrived there. And the world would be a much different place; it would reflect our ability as a race to be above duality.

The rest of WR’s comment makes little sense to me – “But convince a person to divide themselves into separate parts (like higher/lower self or student/teacher) and you conquer their will and can control them by becoming the authority that dictates which part is which.”

The Self is one and complete; how can it be divided? Who could convince the Self to try to divide itself? Only a lower self could convince another lower self to divide itself and this happens endlessly. We do it to ourselves first and foremost and allow others to do it to us at every turn. This is how it is for an unawakened existence.

The term non-duality and the present day movement are rather new, having first emerged around the 1940’s or so. It was appropriated from Advaita which, as you know, is an ancient offshoot of Hinduism.

But today’s non-dualist movement has greatly distorted the source which spoke of non-duality in terms of “one who has realized himself” or, closer to home, “one who has achieved consciousness”, and not in terms of being a pre-existing reality that we simply need to be reminded is “there for the taking” or something we just need to “wake up to.” The entire issue rests on how do we arrive at non-duality. There are no magic wands to get us there. As I have understood non-dualists they are like those who “want to be Hercules but without the labors.”

If enlightenment is seen as the pinnacle of human existence it stands to reason the payment to acquire it would be great; something would need to be sacrificed to achieve it. As Shakespeare said “Nothing comes from nothing.” If we want to climb a mountain we have to sacrifice being in the comfort of our living rooms for starters. Nothing comes without payment and something of great worth requires great payment (great effort.)

As far as the blog not discussing RB or the FoF in a spiritual context I think the content of what many express here speaks for itself. All of the name calling, the anger, has nothing to do with a spiritual context. If people are not venting their anger / loathing they are mocking and parodying comments supportive of FoF and this also has nothing to do with spirituality. But it represents a choice that people make and the choice indicates where a person is grounded or what consumes their thoughts. People express what is closest to their hearts, most important to them. And in the case of the blog regulars it can be gleaned from their writings that they think it is more important to tear down something or someone rather than to express what is positive in their lives or what they are doing / what they have learned in order to develop their own spiritual possibilities. Golda Meir’s comment pertaining to Arab suicide bombers comes to mind – to paraphrase “they hate us more than they love their own.”

Being totally consumed over one area – a teacher having sex with adult disciples – to the exclusion of any number of possible topics, if anything, only indicates there is nothing else within a spiritual context to find fault with in the FoF or that interests regular posters here.

I would say if you are going to enter into a discussion on whether the FoF is an esoteric school for developing the spiritual possibilities in man it has to be judged in relationship with other esoteric schools/traditions.

Condemnation of consensual sex between a spiritual teacher and disciple, as it is championed on the blog, amounts to upholding a moral code set up by our puritanical ancestors of a few hundred years ago as being representative of a universal or objective standard, which it is not. As far as sexual abuse being established not one charge has been imposed in 40 years. We only hear of unsubstantiated and anonymous “testimony” on this blog.

Using a spiritual context to discuss the FoF would naturally entail judging the body of esoteric thought generated over 40 years and, if an opponent, show how that thought runs counter to esoteric thought in general.

There are possibly 50 to 100 references of a single comment of an interpretation of six black dots on a cave wall and this is used over and over to dismiss a prodigious canon of esoteric thought having origins in the FoF. Focusing on one comment is like finding one ill constructed or bland sentence in a Dickens novel and concluding the author is not a good writer. It is also a sign that people have scant little to refute or call into question about the FoF’s teaching so there is no alternative but to harp on one statement.

If people are going to put a controversial comment under the microscope why not also discuss any number of other comments directly related to man’s quest to awaken which can be attributed to RB/FoF?

Any discussion of the spiritual validity or invalidity of the FoF would have to include discussion of a deity; their role in this saga, what is the extent of their domain, what is in their power to control or not control, the esoteric principle that the play is written / fated, the necessity of friction as fuel for evolution, the value of transformation of suffering, non expression of negativity, of which judgment is a big part, and any other number of spiritual tenets elaborated in all major spiritual traditions. Discussing faith as it applies to spirituality would also be in the proper context.

In that regard Old Fish in the Sea expressed some revealing thoughts in #181, apparently devaluing faith as it applies to the quest for spirituality, and even devaluing spirituality itself – “Perhaps faith or spirituality is not a good thing at all.”

Such comments represent the tip of the iceberg in determining the real cause for ex members distrust of and difficulties with an organization like the FoF. There can be no spiritual search or arrival at what was sought without a daily renewed faith. But faith comes in several forms. There is good faith and bad faith. There is faith based on one’s verifications and observations and there is blind faith which leads nowhere but away from what is sought.

I don’t expect discussing the FoF in the kind of setting I describe will ever get “air time” here but if anyone actually did feel compelled to discuss issues in a true spiritual context with me I would make every effort to participate. Otherwise I do not plan on following along much longer.

232. brucelevy - January 14, 2010

231. Daily Cardiac

I thought you were on hiatus. So much for “will”, huh? All that time sucking up to the powers that be (or not be) in the FOF and you have shit to show for it.

Loser.

233. brucelevy - January 14, 2010

231. Daily Cardiac

Just can’t tear yourself away. Clearly, this blog you demean is giving you more of what you narcissisticly need than the people you devote your life, money and bull shit to.

234. Spock - January 14, 2010

DC: “What I meant was: To speak of spiritual matters already implies its opposite, that which is not spiritual – that which is carnal or corporeal.”

Here’s your “argument” — that spirituality is dualistic because it’s dualistic. The premise of your statement completely disregards another possibility — that everything is spiritual.

——–
To me the sea is a continual miracle;
The fishes that swim—the rocks—the motion of the waves—the ships, with men in them,
What stranger miracles are there?

-Walt Whitman

235. apostate - January 14, 2010

231 DC

“Otherwise I do not plan on following along much longer.”

Promises, promises…

What a shame, after yet another lengthy pathetic waste of time, effort and energy, DC decides to tease the blog (again) with another gentle ‘kiss off’ — I can understand why, I’m surprised it hasn’t come sooner… oh ya, that’s right, DC is an attention whore and even when it’s negative attention she has a difficult time living without it.

DC wastes so much brain-sand ‘rationalizing’ and justifying, but it’s no mystery why she feels compelled to do so — she’s trapped in a cult and what else can she do but try to justify it, she has nothing else to do.

I recall from my study of the 4th Way that some emphasis was placed on the importance of ‘being.’ Burton and DC must have missed that part of the manual. Here’s a newsflash for DC if she’s still reading this: ‘being’ is simple, it’s easy, it’s even ‘natural’ — what DC does here is the antithesis of simple, easy and natural. Maybe it would help if DC spent more time practicing her ‘sequences’ (snicker), god knows she needs to do something differently cause this ain’t gettin’ her anywhere, she’s all twisted up inside, trapped in an unending mindless loop.

Yeseree, it truly is astounding how much bullshit comes out of a single asshole… DC this one’s for you:

236. apostate - January 14, 2010

230 Tatyana

“Yet, I can totally sense that these people are working on themselves, very attentive, intelligent, quiet and intentional.”

Doesn’t this seem all too familiar? You could say the same things about the Followship, and where did that get you?

Do you see a pattern here? At it’s core, is your faith in a dead ‘guru’ really any different than your (former) faith in a living ‘guru’ ?

237. X-ray - January 15, 2010

224. Spock – January 14, 2010

x-ray. For someone just escaping the insanity of the FOF, it seems like a brutal assessment that Burton and DC have no conscience

Then why are they escaping then? This thing is a number one thing which should be understood deeply and clearly before making their move, and in my opinion, there is nothing, and I mean nothing, which could be more devastating to Burton’s sick self-image than seeing his legacy collapsing before his eyes, and putting him in jail will serve this purpose very well.

And Tatyana, you really need to stop with your cult thing, haven’t you learn anything from your time in the FOF? Don’t you still understand that all cults are the same at the very bottom and all of them lead nowhere? Do you need to waist another 10 years to understand that?

238. brucelevy - January 15, 2010

Some people would rather search than find.

239. Spock - January 15, 2010

X-ray,
Me: “For someone just escaping the insanity of the FOF, it seems like a brutal assessment that Burton and DC have no conscience…”

You: “Then why are they escaping then? This thing is a number one thing which should be understood deeply and clearly before making their move…”

Yep, I agree with you. I think the answer is that cult think doesn’t necessarily stop right after leaving. For some it does, for others it doesn’t, and it varies in all cases. With all cults, it takes time.

Personally I think the “fond memories” of the Fellowship of Friends should all be questioned — and questioned with brutal honesty and directness.

Those fond memories are often the same emotions that keep people from leaving today, and kept many former followers from leaving in the past. People have trouble letting go — NOT letting go of posting to the blog, but “letting go” of those “fond memories” because it’s too uncomfortable to sincerely acknowledge the collective illness.

The same psychological and emotional impulse that says, “I learned a lot there” is what keeps people there now. Today’s followers are stuck in the notion that, “I’m learning a lot here” and this only adds to the confusion. By questioning that notion of fond memories and a learned atmosphere, an enormous amount of clarity is brought to the decision making process.

240. Opus 111 - January 15, 2010

Where to start?

DC’s examples of incontrovertible duality are amusing:
A place cannot occupy both north and south together, except if you live at the equator, I guess. hot and cold, fine and coarse, beautiful and ugly, light and dark are all unfortunate examples of an unescapable natural duality, since these terms are in fact continuous, not discrete and opposite characteristics of nature. I quibble perhaps.

Another whopper, the image of a journey is also an expression of duality: where you are now vs. where you are going. is given as a ‘profound’ example of our dualistic spiritual experience. Unfortunately, our friend DC seems to be travelling in a non-dual spiritual circle.

I will pass on the “prodigious canon of esoteric thought having origins in the FOF”, I guess DC never got to ‘review’ works of the old wise ones to find pearls that fitted REB lunatic view of the world, otherwise he would know that the quality of the result can only follow the quality of the methodology. I dare you, DC (except for the hippo droppings) name one prodigious, or even original FOF thought.
After the expected criticism of modern proponents of Advaita (anything contemporary and non-FOF, by definition, is of no spiritual value in the FOF – how is that as an example of duality?), DC embarks on a recriminating, tired diatribe against the critics of REB and FOF and their ‘alleged’ victims.

The blog had no other stated purpose than to inform. It is doing that. The clear message is there for those curious enough to read and reflect.
Instead of awakening and working towards improving theirs or others’ existence, members grow old, disillusioned, financially and intellectually impoverished by a leader preoccupied with satisfying his endless and basest needs. On the other hand, those who free themselves from the physical, emotional and spiritual shackles of the cult finally get their chance at a meaningful life and spiritual progress.

The moon will have to stay hungry.

241. Ellen - January 15, 2010

#231, Daily Cardiac,

Thank you very much for your lengthy response. I can appreciate that you took some time and effort to write down your own understandings and valuations.

There are a number of unexamined assumptions within it. My guess is that you are unaware of these assumptions (as assumptions) and therefore build your own spiritual castle (school) upon it. I understand, I’ve been there, done that.

For starters, you say:
“To speak of spiritual matters already implies its opposite, that which is not spiritual – that which is carnal or corporeal.”

Whoah, right there, Leroy. So is the duality in the speech or in the spirit? Let’s define a few things:

First speech. Speech itself occurs within the human framework of time, space and causality. Thus it occupies a certain level of reality, one could even say apparent reality, the reality of phenomenal forms, of physical but also mental existence (which credits forms with a greater sense of “reality” than that which may actually inhere, the phonomenon of “personality” being a good example). Thus speech may refer to levels of realilty which are immanent to and irreducible of the dualistic level in which speech occurs, but that is the best that speech can do. Otherwise, there is silence, full, profound, open, living, loving silence – which can be experienced, which may be the ground of experience.

Second spirituality. It seems to me that you are making a common enough confusion regarding the nature of spirituality. It seems to me that you regard it as essentially different from the material world rather than immanent to it. There is a difference. Thus, if I understand your separatist view, it is a world of a chicken but no egg. And how can that be true? Or does the duality only lie in the speech, in the mind? If so, our dialogue can go in one direction, if not, then another.

242. Ellen - January 15, 2010

#231, Daily Cardiac,

One more question: In relation to the use of speech to refer to the condition of non-dual enlightenment why is, “one who has achieved consciousness” closer to home than “one who has realized himself”?
[These were your terms and it is your distinction]

243. veramente - January 15, 2010

231 DC
If Man is truly a micro-cosmos he is a mirror of a universe which is dualistic in that it contains opposing forces. Man can only relate to the world in terms of dualities.
———————–
You sound rather stuffy DC with the use of Man here and Man there…

244. surelyujest - January 15, 2010

231 Daily Cardiac

“A place cannot occupy both north and south together.”

The Earth can.

A perfect example of how small your mind has become, and how you twist reality into profound-sounding statements which are at base untrue. Like all those journals with the deep-sounding sound-bites trying to show off their understanding. It’s vanity, and if you examine them, they often don’t even make sense…like your statement.

245. Crouching Tiger - January 15, 2010

Apostate/X-ray.

Are your opinions about the GF are based on any personal knowledge or experience of the institution? I’m assuming they aren’t.

At least, the three most damaging raisons d’etre for cults – to obtain money or sex from people, or power over them – or some combination of all three – are all absent from it. There is no living guru figure who controls everyone else, payments are next to nothing and there’s no hidden sexual agenda. People are free to join and leave and join again at any time… So the worst you can say is “here is a group of people practising a teaching that I consider deluded.”

To go any further than that, and start ‘seeing patterns’ from Tatyana’s very brief description, is just you tarring another 4th Way institution with the brush of your own experience in the Fellowship. You just assume it must have the same principles of operation.

246. X-ray - January 15, 2010

245. Crouching Tiger – January 15, 2010

No, my opinion is based on my in depth study of cultism, my personal experience in cults, and a personal knowledge of some people who are close to P. Patterson, and who are just as pathetic as those who I met in the FOF.
You sound like a cult member who is defending his beliefs.

247. Crouching Tiger - January 15, 2010

X-ray.

How many cults were you a member of, apart from the Fellowship? Were you in Patterson’s group?

Patterson is nothing to do with the Gurdjieff Foundation, btw.

And the three points about sex, money and power are pretty obvious distinctions from the Fellowship.

248. X-ray - January 15, 2010

247. Crouching Tiger – January 15, 2010

I’ve been around enough to see what I see and to know what I know.

249. Crouching Tiger - January 15, 2010

X-ray.

Yeah sure you do. I guess I’ll just have to defer to your ‘all-seeing eye’ then.

250. X-ray - January 15, 2010

And those who’s back lights you see ahead of you, I see their front lights in back mirror.

251. Crouching Tiger - January 15, 2010

My word you’re evolved. Can I be a member of your group?

252. X-ray - January 15, 2010

Your sarcasm shows me your limitations, and your still ‘sleeping eye’.

253. X-ray - January 15, 2010

No, just stay where you are, you more fit in there.

254. Crouching Tiger - January 15, 2010

Aw, come on, play along a little more, don’t take yourself so seriously. Your tone is beginning to resemble that of someone else we know on this blog… Guess who?

255. X-ray - January 15, 2010

I’m not playing, CT, just saying what I think, and my tone has never changed in the last three years of participation here.

256. Crouching Tiger - January 15, 2010

Aside from the by-play, I feel there’s a real issue raised by the thread begun by Tatyana’s story of her experience at the Gurdjieff Foundation.

Where does a group mentality end and a cult mentality begin? Human beings need an association with others to help measure and compare their experiences. We need that sense of community in nearly every aspect of our lives.

Having been burned by the Fellowship, would we have the security and confidence in our own judgments needed to enter another group situation, if the right opportunity arose? Or has the Fellowship of Friends trauma created a permanent phobia about even the possibility?

It would be good to hear this question without thinking that we already know the answer.

257. X-ray - January 15, 2010

‘It would be good to hear this question without thinking that we already know the answer.’

And what if we have found our answers? Should we keep on searching for them anyway?
You still trapped in “my group is better” thing, which is a cult mentality, and you don’t know how do you sound to those who passed that point.

258. Crouching Tiger - January 15, 2010

If you’ve found your answers X-ray, good for you. You can relax.

I can’t say that I do have as many answers now – there are certainly fewer than there used to be. Sometimes it feels like they are dropping day by day. A strange feeling.

And I can’t truthfully say that “My group is better” is one of those that remain either.

259. Elena L - January 15, 2010

united, we stand, divided, we fall.

260. WhaleRider - January 15, 2010

Daily Cardiac:
“But how do we get to the fourth state? We get there by transcending duality. Duality does not cease to exist but rather we cease to believe in it. We cease to dwell there. And how do we cease to dwell there? By making precise and sustained efforts to oppose the forces in us that are opposed to the fourth state.”

It seems to me that the forces within us that are opposed to the fourth state are the same forces within us that need to divide the world into spiritual vs carnal as you have done.

In the fourth state there is nothing to oppose…no place to dwell or not dwell…and there is no here or there. The Absolute is All and Everything.

Nevertheless, one still has to chop wood and carry water.

You say: “The Self is one and complete; how can it be divided?”

The self is usually divided into the cult sanctioned, acceptable parts of you that you like about yourself (what you call your higher self) and the not-self or unacceptable parts of yourself that you wish to hide from, bury and/or project onto others or what you call your lower self.

This is how you divide yourself in the cult.

And even though you continue to make sustained Herculean efforts to be perfect, your flaws still exist, which is just more job security for Burton. He provides the so-called “spiritual exercises” in which you fail at, thus reinforcing the perpetual need for the outside authority figure to set the bar and determine what is “spiritual” and what is not when in fact the cult is deadening your spirit.

Once you accept both parts of yourself, even the parts you wish to oppose or banish from your awareness, accepting that you are both your lower and higher self, that they are indeed one self, then you will be enlightened and the world you live in now will seem like paradise, although not without struggle, because as it is said, you still have to chop wood, carry water, and care for your children…except you probably don’t have children because you have devoted your whole life to your guru. Too bad for you. Children are nature’s evolutionary tool.

261. Tatyana - January 15, 2010

Thank you, CT.

From my point of view there is nothing wrong with being in a group of shared interests. Not to belong, but to circulate, to learn etc. I would like to join a group of artists because we can organize some fun workshops or exhibitions together and we can share inspiration and points of view. We can support each other or encourage each other.

I also a member of a gym. Is this wrong? Or should I just buy all gym equipment and do it at home alone? Or should I give up it all and “accept my lazy self”?

I can’t party alone or have a conversation with myself. I need people.
May be x-ray does not need people and friends. I do.

I joined FOF because of my interest in the 4th way, I left FOF because of the same reason. So, exploring GF seems rather interesting because before I did not have this option. In FOF we are programmed to believe that there are no other options and other groups are all wrong.
There are sincere seekers in FOF who are misled by the teacher. Even though they read the same books, the accents and interpretation is all incorrect. I just wanted to share this with those who are reading the blog and on the fense. There are other options for those who are interested in the 4th way and GF is much better option in mho.

Also I thought it might be interesting for some how a change in the form evokes same old associations and habits and feeling of “wrongness”. Especially if there is an aim to free oneself from the mechanical manifestations and become conscious.

262. X-ray - January 15, 2010

CT and Tatyana,

Whatever guys, we far apart.

263. apostate - January 16, 2010

Tatyana,

I think both you and CT miss my point. I don’t have time now to respond fully, but I will say that the human need to belong, and the need for a sense of community is an essential part of the make-up of the “social animal.” The unscrupulous take advantage of this basic need, while other organizations may be more benign in their designs — this too is an obvious statement.

The point I was originally trying to make with Tatyana had to do with her state of mind: based on some of the things she’s writing here it seems to me that her FAITH and priorities are — how can I put this delicately — let’s say “misdirected.”

I’ll give you another example of what I mean, Tatyana finishes her last post with:

“Especially if there is an aim to free oneself from the mechanical manifestations and become conscious.”

This sort of thing rings alarm bells in me — Tatyana, how long did you say you’ve been out of the Followship? A year? And now you’re diving right back into another group… I understand that impulse, especially when the wounds are fresh… I did the same sort of thing many moons ago. As the song says — whatever gets you through the night, it’s alright… right?

As for the last line of your previous post, I don’t know the source of this little nugget of cult-think, it sounds suscpiciously like Followship indoctrination, or it could be from your Gurdjieff Foundation, or maybe it’s simply something you’ve picked up in your leisure reading, whatever the case it sounds to me like unadulterated, pure and simple cult-think, brainwashing.

Tatyana, do yourself a favor, consider for a moment that YOU ARE in fact conscious, and that YOU ARE NOT in fact a machine. You can do this, you can free your mind of the burden of these silly notions you carry around with you. Now, with all of your suddenly new-found freedom, what will you “aim” for ? As they say in my country “the sky’s no limit.”

264. Tatyana - January 16, 2010

263. apostate
“Tatyana, do yourself a favor, consider for a moment that YOU ARE in fact conscious, and that YOU ARE NOT in fact a machine.”

I don’t disagree with you. I am conscious for the moment I am thinking about it, but when I am absent things happen not the best way. Even from astrological point of view we are still mechanical. Even from biological. Any way you look at yourself, it is hard to find who you really are. Who are you? Are you all the time? Where are you going when you are not there/here? Who is doing the job? Still you?

If I was not a stimulus-response machine I would know it, I would not have to imagine it.

What is cult think if not a mechanical repeating the dead formulas? Or admiring a leader, because he is always right. I don’t think I have much if that.

265. WhaleRider - January 16, 2010

Tatyana:
Could you consider, if even for a day, that in your “sleep” there is still a part of you who is watching…and in your “wakefulness” there is still a part of you who is “asleep”?

Daily Cardiac speaks only of night and day but neglects dawn and dusk…and the many shades of gray.

Do you not “return” (despite whether you make “efforts” to or not) after you have been “absent”…often more rested than before you “left”? Where is the harm in that?

Do not some trees slumber in winter and some animals hibernate? Do they seem dead to you? Are there no hidden possibilities in winter? Mind you, for the Earth a year is but a breath.

How could this wondrous strange event we call life ever be…”mechanical”?

If you think so , then you take life for granted and must travel to the brink of death to understand the difference. You will not find the answer sitting on the thick cushion called the Fellowship of Friends.

Has anyone been able to mechanically create life from the inert substances that make up our bodies? No, all we have been able to achieve so far is the manipulation of life…and the manipulation of our perception of “consciousness”.

And there is no harm in being part of any community as long as you do not give more than you receive or take more than you give.

I would just beware of anyone who tries to convince you that only when you die will you know that the price you are paying for something they are selling was worth it. That’s one of the oldest con games there is. It’s called…fear of the unknown….something we all have to learn to live with as we mature.

To ALL of you: Thanks for posting.

266. The FOFion - January 16, 2010

Burton Admits It: He Took Steroids

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — After dropping out of the public eye for several years, Fellowship of Friends Teacher Robert Burton finally emerged from his hiding on Friday and told the world what everyone knew all along: He took steroids.

Burton held a press conference in this secluded, mysterious, secretive, out of the way, oddly located Fellowship compound — located in a dark corner of Yuba County off Marysville Road at the end of Rice’s Crossing Road — to explain how he was inexplicably able to gain the trust of so many people and land the highly sought after Teachership position at one of Yuba County’s most heralded cults.

“It was steroids,” Burton said as he tried to hold back the tears. “I couldn’t have done it without them, and it’s time for me to come clean.”

Burton also admitted to a number of other indiscretions:

— He had sex with many of his students, he said.
— He predicted the end of the world. “Unfortunately it never came,” he added.
— He predicted his cult would be an ark by now, but instead it’s just an aspiring casino property.
— He launched the infamous “It Exercise” which caused indigestion at countless Northern California restaurants.
— He forgot to finish the winery.
— He invented dumb ideas and actually shared them with people.

But the one error he made that will forever draw the wrath of public opinion was his decision to take steroids during his most famous of seasons — 1976. That year, he not only crystallized to become a Man Number 6, but he also made history by inviting at least 300 different followers into his private quarters. How many actually accepted his invitation, no one knows. But his record stands even to this day.

“I apologize for the steroids,” Burton said Friday.

267. X-ray - January 16, 2010

264. Tatyana – January 16, 2010

263. apostate
“Tatyana, do yourself a favor, consider for a moment that YOU ARE in fact conscious, and that YOU ARE NOT in fact a machine.”

I don’t disagree with you. I am conscious for the moment I am thinking about it, but when I am absent things happen not the best way. Even from astrological point of view we are still mechanical. Even from biological. Any way you look at yourself, it is hard to find who you really are. Who are you? Are you all the time? Where are you going when you are not there/here? Who is doing the job? Still you?

It is up to you Tatyana, to be or not to be.
Don’t blame your weakness on anything else.
Be responsible for yourself.
You don’t have to be asleep if you don’t want to be.
To get out of this mental trap or staying there forever, it is your choice.

268. apostate - January 16, 2010

Tatyana,
I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m picking on you, my intention is to help if I can. You wrote:

“If I was not a stimulus-response machine I would know it, I would not have to imagine it.”

Conversely, contained in your statement is this: you imagine that you are a “stimulus-response machine” and so by thinking of yourself in these terms the thought makes it so.

That’s not to deny that people have a “reactive” element in their psycho/emotional/physological make-up, but there is so much more to you than this narrow perspective.

It’s up to you to choose what to focus on, how will you define yourself? As an “unconscious machine?” That’s just a sad and frankly it’s a deplorable way to view yourself, accepting this view has a lot to do with issues of self-esteem.

As the song goes: “you’ll be absolutely free, only if you want to be.”

You also wrote:

“What is cult think if not a mechanical repeating the dead formulas? Or admiring a leader, because he is always right. I don’t think I have much if that.”

Based on what I’ve read from your postings, I think you probably have quite a bit of that… for example, what you just said about thinking of yourself in terms of a “stimulus-response machine” is one of those “dead formulas” and it’s a formula that has a definite deadening effect upon someone who becomes infected by taking it to heart. Only you can change your mind, it’s not too late, start now.

269. apostate - January 16, 2010

FoFian.

Very “timely” — one of your best pieces of reportage.

270. blanca - January 16, 2010

Im looking for old `”friends” whats they are doing,still in fof or left.
Still alive or not,Thanks

i left after 12 years the fof a while ago

271. blanca - January 16, 2010
272. WhaleRider - January 16, 2010

PETA Intervenes At Fellowship Farm

OREGON HOUSE, CA (URP)-In breaking news this morning, P.E.T.A., (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) has descended upon the grounds of the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. and has cited them for multiple violations of animal abuse.

Last week three gaunt male defectors of the cult alerted PETA that the steroid-laced, elderly gay leader, Robert E. Burton has been cultivating a herd of camels and water buffalo in order to have sex with the animals. “We couldn’t keep up with his demands”, one young defector said, “he was draining us of everything we had.”

Male camels and water buffalo, both known for producing copious amounts of sweet-tasking semen were reportedly brought to the grounds to satisfy Burton’s voracious appetite for the substance, which he apparently consumes by the gallon each day.

The reclusive Burton, who was once grossly overweight, claims to his followers that the liquid protein diet helps keep his weight in check, thus enhancing his ability to lead his flock on field trips abroad.

When asked about the immoral exploitation and imbalance of power inherent in the practice of having sex with defenseless, vulnerable, and dependent animals in their care, Daniella Cardiac, Spokesfollower and Head Animal Trainer of the group made the following statement: “We don’t adhere to western, puritan morality,” she said, pointing to the morality detectors installed at the gatehouse and entrance to the grounds.

“What’s the problem? Starving pygmies and people dying of thirst in the desert do it, too,” she said. “Nobody’s holding a gun to their heads. The animals are well-fed, well-groomed, and don’t complain much. They are adults and seem to give their consent. The life they have here is far better than the life they were leading before we recruited them into service.”

“The removal of choice does not imply consent”, PETA Officials said.

273. Dennis - January 16, 2010

Tatyana,

Do whatever feels right to you in relation to the Gurdjeiff Foundation and the FOF. Enjoy your life! Just don’t expect it to lead to awakening. I cannot know this for sure, but it looks to me like nothing we do will lead to awakening, which is why the FOF did not produce that for any of us, that I know of. Awakening from the dream seems to happen to some, for no known reason. If we can’t get there, or here, by trying, then we can just relax and enjoy our lives.

274. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 16, 2010

231. Daily Cardiac:

‘A place cannot occupy both north and south together.’

At the North Pole, any direction you face is South. Similar applies off the planet. It is about frame of reference. Your frame of reference is limited to the mental prison of a cult follower. You don’t even realize you are in that prison of your own making.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

260. WhaleRider:

‘And even though you continue to make sustained Herculean efforts to be perfect, your flaws still exist, which is just more job security for Burton. He provides the so-called “spiritual exercises” in which you fail at, thus reinforcing the perpetual need for the outside authority figure to set the bar and determine what is “spiritual” and what is not when in fact the cult is deadening your spirit.’

Not ‘sustained Herculean efforts;’ Sisyphean effort.

Herculean efforts are those that are all different, super-human, heroic, and, usually, death defying.

Sisyphean effort is the same repeated absurd and useless effort that leads to no result of conSEQUENCE, as a conSEQUENCE of hubris.

Excerpted from Wikipedia:

In Greek mythology, Sisyphus was a king punished in Tartarus [a level, in afterlife, that is lower than Hell] by being cursed to roll a huge boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back down, and to repeat this throughout eternity.

Sisyphus . . . was avaricious and deceitful, violating the laws of hospitality by killing travelers and guests . . . took pleasure in these killings because they allowed him to maintain his dominant position . . . famed as the craftiest of men . . . seduced his niece, took his brother’s throne and betrayed Zeus’ secrets. Zeus then ordered Thanatos (Death personified) to chain Sisyphus in Tartarus. Sisyphus slyly asked Thanatos to try the chains to show how they worked. When Thanatos did so, Sisyphus secured them and threatened him. This caused an uproar, and no human could die until Ares (who was annoyed that his battles had lost their fun because his opponents would not die) intervened, freeing Death and sending Sisyphus to Tartarus.

However, before Sisyphus died, he had told his wife to throw his naked body into the middle of the public square in attempt to test his wife’s love for him. Annoyed by the loveless obedience of his wife, Sisyphus persuaded Persephone, Queen of the Underworld, to allow him to go back to the upper world and scold his wife for not burying his body as a loving wife would. When Sisyphus returned to Corinth, he refused to retreat back to the underworld and was forcibly dragged back to the underworld by Hermes. In another version of the myth, Persephone was directly persuaded that he had been conducted to Tartarus by mistake and ordered him to be freed.

“Sisyphean task” or “Sisyphean challenge”

As a punishment from the gods for his trickery, Sisyphus was compelled to roll a huge rock up a steep hill, but before he could reach the top of the hill, the rock would always roll back down again, forcing him to begin again. The maddening nature of the punishment was reserved for Sisyphus due to his hubristic belief that his cleverness surpassed that of Zeus.

275. another name - January 17, 2010

Dear All

There is a few things I would like respond to.

1.One is the need for community? Do we need a community and for what reason?

Just going through life is a form of community, what is this need?

I have thought a lot of my need of community and addressed it with people. I am confused in this area. There is more community in my life then I want to admit. Work/ shopping, clubs, meeting people in certain situations, friends, family. So, what is that need for “community”.? Or is it: ” I had a nice evening with my friend and filling time”? O I had thIs wonderful dinner and I am soooo busy? Is it the fear of being by my/yourself or the fear of dying alone? Fear of hearing my inner silence? What is it?

One of my colleagues (and she touched me deeply) said: I have my daughters bring me to the mountains when I am old and can not take care of myself and be eaten by the animals. She has seen death many times in very different ways.

Is it the fear of being alone, of dying, or..? Is it a cover up of as was said by x ray, comparing in which nice group we circulate and if we are a small or big fish?
One of my family members (84) told me it was so much more easier to be by herself and could do without many things (was assuring to me).

So I am questioning this need for community a lot. This need that brought me partially in the fellowship/pathway of presence???
Was it because I was so insecure (subconsciously), or had unresolved issues or PTSS? Or all the above?

I have no readily answer and at the same token, I know, I do not need to know all these answers anymore and wait/ experience what the next moment brings. Like now seeing the sun set, warm with the stove and smelling the baked goods in the dusk of the evening, writing to my virtual community.

Maybe being more comfortable without having to have answers…is the answer? That must be non dualism….?

Look forward to your responses.

276. brucelevy - January 17, 2010

273. another name

For me, I agree. But then I didn’t join, nor did I stay in the FOF for “community”. In fact, I would never have associated with 90% of the people who were “in” during my time if I didn’t allow myself to be coerced by the “group mind”.

For me the community of “life” is ample and full, and ever changing, which, for me, I prefer. I was never really attracted to “group mind” and all the horrible things it promotes, and the wonderful things it stifles.

Some people need “community” ,as we’re speaking of it, to try to fill a void they can’t fill with themselves. And certainly the FOF doesn’t do anything to promote one’s “self”. It’s constantly implying that one’s judgment is faulty, and one needs the Queen and her flying monkeys to keep one on the straight and narrow, RB’s straight and narrow, as crooked as it is. And weak or naive minds tend to latch on to that shit.

277. another name - January 17, 2010

Dear All,

2. Robert being a criminal?

Yes, Robert might be a criminal and yet does not look like he is going to get into a physical jail soon…? I do think that he is sick, is abused as a child and therefore abuses others. He has never worked through these issues and therefore does to others what has been done to him, which is a well known documented pattern.

I wonder why some people on the blog are very direct in saying that Robert has to go to jail? Are still very angry? What is that need? Where does it come from? Just a question, nothing personal. Been there, done it. I wonder if there is a deep hurt inside of you/me /us?

God, would we not want to stop abuse and re-abuse….? It is so intertwined in life…
I read an article about some Navajo tribes how the older women teased boys, regarding their sexuality and their penis and how traumatic this was for the boys.

How many women are there who are abused and still and then the silent group of men….I wonder if the fellowship of friends/pathways to presence has a higher percentage of abused men and women who have a history of abuse? I wonder…

Why is life set up like this?

I wonder?

278. fofblogmoderator - January 17, 2010

270 & 271 are new

279. WhaleRider - January 17, 2010

Ask someone in Haiti right now about the need for community.

It’s easy to take having your basic needs met for granted in the US.

On the other hand, mystics prefer to be loners, far from the maddening crowd, and rightfully so.

If you don’t have an idea why life is set up the way it is, there will always be a line of people ready to sell you their reason and enlist you to work for their cause.

Is having an answer really going to change the way other people behave?

Shit happens…right along with existentialist angst.

For me, there’s nothing like skiing in a blizzard…to clear the head and feel my heart beating in my chest.

280. Crouching Tiger - January 17, 2010

Bruce.

“For me, I agree. But then I didn’t join, nor did I stay in the FOF for “community”. In fact, I would never have associated with 90% of the people who were “in” during my time if I didn’t allow myself to be coerced by the “group mind”.”

Maybe. But a great many people do stay for that sense of community [sometimes above all else] and there is also a powerful will to maintain it afterwards, as evidenced by the Greater Fellowship. The fact that in OH now the two communities [ex and current] appear to be mingling so freely is probably a key to the eventual dissolution of the Fellowship. The seal against ‘life’ is no longer so watertight.

Furthermore, one of the criticisms leveled at RB both here and elsewhere is that his own being has never truly encouraged people to participate in a wider sense of community – with their own families, women and children for example. And of course with Life in general. Isn’t that one sign of an expanding sense of self – that you can include more? That you feel more connectedness?

I take your point that people can enter and stay in groups because they’re too afraid to do otherwise, and hiding from the need to fully test their own independent resources. The obverse to that is the ‘loner’ who is threatened by Life and a sense of community- too afraid to test their own resources and conclusions against the experience of others in any circumstances. So they build a wall around themselves and call it independence.

The ideal is someone who is always ‘alone’ but fully in Life, fully adapted to to others. Jesus and Mohamed never shunned anyone, they ate with prostitutes and beggars. And yet they had the knack of being perfectly themselves in all circumstances, and to all men.

The fear can enter anywhere, it can keep people in communities but it can also keep people from entering them.

281. apostate - January 17, 2010

Crouching Tiger,

What’s happening with the book? email me again if you don’t want to say it here.

282. another name - January 17, 2010

which book Apostate?

283. Crouching Tiger - January 17, 2010

Apostate – best to email me as I’m not sure who you are!

284. apostate - January 17, 2010

the apostate formerly known as ‘ton’ —
Apparently I’m not able to leave messages on your Greater Fellowship page.

285. Crouching Tiger - January 17, 2010

I’ll leave my details on your page.

286. X-ray - January 17, 2010

277. another name – January 17, 2010

Burton is a criminal and he must be treated as such.
When you will see him as such and not as ‘mayby’, then you will have your answer, and I am not angry, I only believe in justice.

287. another name - January 18, 2010

Thanks X ray, this is inspiring. And please help me out.

I do not believe in justice. I can not believe why people who go to jail learn much more bad tricks and often end up again in jail. Many ” criminals” have a history of being abused and they abuse again and again. Why do children very small one, under a year get abused, why does one uncle abuses all his younger nieces, cousins and sisters….tell me why. That is why I do not believe in justice. I do not see justice…

on.

My observation is that even if he is a criminal and a sick one….OBVIOUSLY nobody puts him in jail. The county, the DA, the PD, mental health everybody knows about Robert Burton and look he is not in JAIL. There is where my brain short-circuits and therefore I can not believe in justice.

I do see my own inner “I”s, thoughts, words of violence and I try to bend these and go to a place of acceptance and inclusion.

PS Much of the above is out of my daily life and not some mind activity. My own hatred and pain and sorrow regarding Burton has seen all the corners of the earth and I had to face it all…still?

288. X-ray - January 18, 2010

287. another name – January 18, 2010

I didn’t said that I believe in judicial system, I said that I believe in justice, and why some criminals ends up in jail and others don’t, that is another question.
Evil must be punished, and punishment is justice. That’s all I’m saying here.

289. X-ray - January 18, 2010

287. another name – January 18, 2010

Thanks X ray, this is inspiring. And please help me out.

‘I do not believe in justice. I can not believe why people who go to jail learn much more bad tricks and often end up again in jail. Many ” criminals” have a history of being abused and they abuse again and again. Why do children very small one, under a year get abused, why does one uncle abuses all his younger nieces, cousins and sisters….tell me why. ‘

Because they are immoral, conscienceless, degraded criminals, and that is why, and why these bastards not in jail, probably because some people believe in forgiveness, second chance and healing more, than harsh, uncompromising justice, and adequate responce.
This way of thinking is a favorable to crime, it promotes it, rather stops it.

290. another name - January 18, 2010

Because they are immoral, conscienceless, degraded criminals, and that is why, and why these bastards not in jail, probably because some people believe in forgiveness, second chance and healing more, than harsh, uncompromising justice, and adequate response.
This way of thinking is a favorable to crime, it promotes it, rather stops it.

What do you mean X-ray? Which way of thinking promotes crime? Can you be more specific? Thanks

291. X-ray - January 18, 2010

Your way of thinking promotes the crime, since you do not believe in justice.

292. another name - January 18, 2010

Mmmm, interesting and it seems like I have an opportunity to clarify.

I do not believe in the justice system andIi do not belief in justice in the sense of short term actions. Maybe on the long run but I do not have an overview if Justice really “wins” on the long run and from whose perspective.

As an example if you study history and you read an English history book or a French history book of a Spanish history book about the war in England when Elizabeth was reigning, every country wil give you a different version on what is justice? Yes on the long run justice might happen to Robert and in the meantime a lot of harm is still done. NOW till……

I do not disagree with you, I just look at justice in a different way and a different scale and I am disappointed in the amount humans, have to suffer, from God may know, what point of view. I do not get it and I am still trying to understand… Again to repeat myself:

Many ” criminals” have a history of being abused and they abuse again and again. Why do children very small one, under a year get abused, why does one uncle abuses all his younger nieces, cousins and sisters….tell me why, andd 20 years later he is put in jail. Why not sooner, is this justice?

In the hope to make my point more clear…

Thanks for your time and energy. Also for Whalerider, and Bruce and others

293. X-ray - January 18, 2010

Do you want to see Burton in jail? I do. Do you?

294. Daily Cardiac - January 18, 2010

X-ray – 288:

“I didn’t said that I believe in judicial system, I said that I believe in justice, and why some criminals ends up in jail and others don’t, that is another question.
Evil must be punished, and punishment is justice.”

X-ray – 293:

“Do you want to see Burton in jail? I do. Do you?”

If you don’t believe in a judicial system who would put someone in jail?

295. X-ray - January 18, 2010

DC, talking to you is pointless, since first you are a hopeless idiot and second, you are a fellowship puppet, who is playing here specific role of distracting people from the real issues and distorting the truth about criminally of Robert Burton.

I told you many times already but I will repeat it once again.

Go fuck yourself you dumb motherfucker, brainless fellowships jerk.
You just a loser who’s life has been a waist.
You are your own punishment already but regardless, I wish sincerely you more.

296. X-ray - January 18, 2010

And yes, I want to see Burton in jail, and even more so, with your newly coming posts.

297. hundredthousandangels - January 18, 2010

Angels are God’s Messengers
I’ll Fly Away

298. hundredthousandangels - January 18, 2010

I’ll fly away, oh glory,
I’ll fly away
When I die,
hallelujah by and by,
I’ll fly away

Some bright morning
when this life is over,
I’ll fly away
To a land on God’s
celestial shore,
I’ll fly away

When the shadows
of this life have grown,
I’ll fly away
Like a bird from
these prison walls,
I’ll fly away

I’ll fly away, oh glory,
I’ll fly away
When I die,
hallelujah by and by,
I’ll fly away

Oh how glad and
happy when we meet,
I’ll fly away
No more cold iron
shackles on my feet,
I’ll fly away

I’ll fly away, oh glory,
I’ll fly away
When I die,
hallelujah by and by,
I’ll fly away

Just a few more
weary days and then,
I’ll fly away
To a land where
joy will never end,
I’ll fly away

I’ll fly away, oh glory,
I’ll fly away
When I die,
hallellujah by and by,
I’ll fly away

299. Ellen - January 18, 2010

#231 Daily Cardiac,

You seem to be intent on pointing out the simple (and relatively unimportant) contradictions of others while simultaneously eluding a serious and potentially profitable discussion on spirituality.

The thread between you and I on this page began with your claim that no one has chosen to discuss Robert Burton and the teaching of the Fellowship of Friends within a spiritual context. To which I immediately responded with a reference to our long discussion on non-duality. To which you responded: “I don’t consider non-duality to be a spiritual topic. The very term “non-duality” contradicts “spiritual.” When I asked for clarification of that statement, in face of a rather large amount of contradictory material, you responded: “To speak of spiritual matters already implies its opposite, that which is not spiritual – that which is carnal or corporeal.” Please see my response #241.

You cannot weasel out of a serious intellectual consideration of non-duality/Advaita Vedanta of – at least philosophically – presenting the essence of all spirituality if you do not define your terms. So, if you want to present a serious argument in favor of your (dualistic) spiritual practice, you need to define your terms. I am asking for clarification.

What do you mean by the term “spirituality”?

300. X-ray - January 18, 2010

299. Ellen – January 18, 2010

#231 Daily Cardiac,

‘You seem to be intent on pointing out the simple (and relatively unimportant) contradictions of others while simultaneously eluding a serious and potentially profitable discussion on spirituality. ‘

I’m sorry, but I see no contradiction here.
Judicial system in US is corrupt and to get things thru ,takes a while, yet it’s possible with a certain efforts.
Justice is an active side of conscience, and it has nothing to do with the bureaucrats in the office.

But for DC, it doesn’t matter, as long as he can distract people from the real issues.
He had his role assigned to him for a reason.
I knew people like him in the FOF, their were stinking without opening their mouth, but this one is exceedingly worse.

301. fofblogmoderator - January 18, 2010

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