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Fellowship Of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion – Part 86 November 19, 2009

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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway To Presence Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. Yesri Baba - November 19, 2009

Dears, the pace of our school keeps accelerating. We are getting closer, the sequence has been eaten by your evil lower selves so I have keyed new instructions from influence-C. Due to dwindling revenue from the loss of members who couldn’t count to four you stronger students will need to pay higher ‘donations’ for this super secret esoteric knowledge.

Love Robert

2. Golden Veil - November 19, 2009

*

L O V E I N V A I N

The following letter was written by a student in 1984, about a year before I met ‘The School’ in Florence, Italy. I believe it was the student’s intention to distribute the letter to all of his friends, that is, all of his fellow students [the Fellowship of Friends]. I believe that the letter’s distribution was prevented as much as possible, and even stolen from mail boxes; and that student was banished from the Fellowship of Friends for the writing of it.

*

Dear Friends,

What is to be said can only be heard through your heart. Please try to listen from that part. For a long time we have been part of a criminal process which has hurt many individuals. Some of these individuals have been sacrificed because we have chosen not to listen to our conscience.

Robert has over the years pursued and sodomized young men. He has used his position to seduce these young men with the promise of immortality. His actions are simply that of a degenerate being no matter how refined. We in our blindness have allowed some dear individuals to be defiled and damaged by his appetites. Our ommission, and it is one in the strictest sense, is allowing it to continue.

Some of these young men have become seriously psychologically impaired through this process. Yet we go on minimizing it because it is safer not to know. These acts are a violation of Robert’s position. If we excuse this by saying that it is his priviledge or his private weakness we are both accomplice and victim. If it is allowed to continue, the karma which we attract will bring down our school and leave very heavy stains on our being. It is simply not worth the contamination wrought.

There may be much discomfort which comes from these words. But please try to think of the anguish some of these young men have been subject to in the name of evolution; and ask yourself whether you would knowingly, as a higher being, conduct your life in this way.

Can you truly accept that one can enter higher worlds by such actions? Would you wish to enter these worlds by such acts? This reasoning leads to one final not-so-profound conclusion; the Emperor is indeed very naked and we sadly provide his mantle.

Robert is a victim also. The highest that one can extend him is compassion and help. If one becomes angered at him or oneself or me the cycle continues. He is and will be confused and hurt by these actions. Yet firmness and equanimity are what is needed. We do great harm to our school and our being should we choose not to act.

We have talked and preached an ethic of love and acting for the higher right. Now is the time to be the words. It would also be a solemn and humane act for us to help the young men who have been hurt and damaged by Robert. It would be a proper legacy to pass on to the next generation.

If you find in your solitude that fear and or the wish to defend has kept you from hearing what has been said, you lose a very dear friend. You lose yourself!

In friendship,
Samuel L. S.
March 4, 1984

*

3. James Mclemore - November 19, 2009

Thanks Yesri – I didn’t know how to do that.

4. Mikey - November 19, 2009

Shelly! The fairest of them all, said the mirror.
Gerard Haven always seemed kind of whacky to me, and maybe since his brain injury he is a little more so. Be that as it may, I sure he has at least a few admirable traits. However, since he has taken his (now irrevocable) stand as Robert Burton’s Chief Disciple, he has undoubtably incurred some serious, thick sanskaras (impressions) which cloud his thinking, and he has pretty much doomed himself to be what he is – a kiss-ass. I suspect that it will be a very long time before he can work himself out of that jam.

5. Kid Shelleen - November 19, 2009

Now were getting somewhere! Clark Terry is one of the most beautiful human beings I’ve ever had the privilege of spending time with. He use to stage a very “esoteric knowledge” segment on the old Tonight Show. He would come out in front of the Orchestra, sing a chorus of “Mumbles” and then proceed to blow a chorus or two on his trumpet, playing it upside-down. Afterward Johnny would turn to the audience, shake his head, frown, and say, “All that time and money for all those years of lessons…”

I say the same thing to myself these days.

6. Spock - November 19, 2009

Mike: “…he has pretty much doomed himself to be what he is – a kiss-ass. I suspect that it will be a very long time before he can work himself out of that jam.”

Applies to a greater or lesser degree to all of us. First step, no matter how old or young, or how much money we have put away or don’t have saved, and no matter how many friends we have or don’t have outside the prison, and no matter how long we were there, is to give up this idea of “reputation.”

I think many Girards are afraid to leave because of this very big hole in their resume — as long as they “stay” there is no stain in their past. As soon as they leave, they believe there’s a stain in their past, and they believe they’ll have trouble living with that, and recovering from it. But this trap, or “jam” that you describe, is self-inflicted and imaginary.

Just leave. Simple as that. First step is giving up the idea of reputation and being respected and being thought wise and intelligent and “higher.”

——

Golden Veil: You should post that often. Gracias.

7. Panoritsa - November 19, 2009

Good point Spock

and

thanks to Shelley and Golden Veil too…

Alice Miller’s work is priceless by the way.

of course the boat would sink in a jiffy, if for any reason the “exercise” (read “prison”) of not being in contact with ex-members was lifted. It will never happen, as we all have heard Burton badmouthing ex-members and we all know what a chilling effect had hearing that another member decided to take the step and fly away. Where were they going?

One of the biggest challenges would be the very fact that the “states” (to get a bit vague and unclear as I used to be…) we “experienced in the Cult (read “school of love and awakening”…) with our “friends”, the king of hearts dinners and socializing is STILL there…

The largest illusion to overcome is that you can be present without a “teacher”- who in any case screws up some young male “students”-, but the “divine state” is who you are and what you are and where you are… You might need to meet the right people, read the good book, be a that place, take that course, do meditation, talk with your sibling, confront your father, pay that long-standing bill… you name it, go to a quiet place, write, paint, do your work-out, love your loved ones and say your goodbyes to the ones who do not care…
watch that movie with your friend, hold the hand of the one who lost a loved one…

There is so much to do and so much not to do…

When dozens of members were exiting about two years ago, there was no alarm for Burton. There was no alarm because he has no idea of what’s going on in his “kingdom.” Some “Isis Center Directors” or “Council Members” or “Older Students” sent him a message and warned him. He then sent a message back through that poor soul Dorian (who joined the Cult when he was 17 or so… so I tend to think that he is completely messed up as he is brought up by Burton…). The message was not that severe (did not keep it but is was forward to me by a “friend” who does not want to see me now…), it was never published but it basically said that “students know what to do…”. Of course the council members had seen members flying out of the cage and they slightly edited the message, making it direct -” no contact with ex-students…”

Nice story….

Now, I am bit more concerned about the members who are in contact with ex-members and pretend there is nothing really serious going on, the members who converse about cabbages and kings with ex-members, the members who say this is our school and not Burton’s kingdom…

and I am also concerned (but do not lie awake…) about the people who said that loved me when I was member… but they seem to be repulsed now…What is it actually they loved?

There is not so much to do and think about the fanatics, about the ones who say they would be the last one to stay with Robert… What can you say there? That Robert wouldn’t like to stay with them, because they are too old and they have a bad breath, or that they are “copper alchemy” and are “too instinctive…”

8. Ames Gilbert - November 19, 2009

Some of you probably remember Traveler’s many wise words here on previous pages of the blog. I’ve been given permission to pass on some recent writings, which I think are some of the most useful yet.

___________________________________________________

Why did you leave the School?

What do you say when someone you knew inside the organization, and not even too well, calls you one day from another continent and asks you to please explain why did you decide to leave the School? A brave step actually, because such direct questions are not normally voiced by current members.

It’s not an easy answer, mostly because the question is phrased in a way I would not phrase it now. When you’re inside, you hear claims that people leave because they become “negative” about the money or sex or some other external issue, and because of such a trifle, they fail to look beyond to a “higher aim” that the organization is ostensibly serving.
Not to diminish the sexual manipulations and misuse of funds: they are no trifles. But they have been rationalized before and can always be rationalized again, in the name of the cause. That is what keeps people in: as long as they believe in the essential goodness of the cause of an “esoteric school”, any irregularities can be explained away and swept under the carpet, a carpet that I think would be several inches off the floor by now, after 37 years of the FoF.
But current members say external issues are never the real reason: it’s that people “lose the work”. Well, what can I say – they are right. If by “work” they mean perpetual self-monitoring for manifestations of thoughts and actions not in line with RB’s wishes; repetition of a magical formula that is to assist me in reaching the ever elusive Divine Presence, with a view to create an astral identity that will survive physical death – then yes, I have thoroughly lost any interest in the “work”. Whether you view that as a tragic failure or not depends on which side of the fence you are looking from.

I say I never decided to leave because leaving eventually happened just as naturally as opening my eyes after waking up in the morning.

It’s not “I left when I saw that RB was wrong,” or “I left when I saw that GH was wrong.” Not even “I left when I saw that PDO and GIG were wrong.”
That all pales in light of the realization that I personally had been spectacularly, mind-bogglingly, fabulously WRONG.

I was wrong to take on faith so many statements of belief just because they sounded good and I wanted them to be true.


I was wrong to feel special.


I was wrong to believe in a hierarchy of more and less enlightened individuals.


I was wrong to assume that others can accurately tell me what I am thinking, feeling or what state I am in.


I was wrong to think that just because some aspects of the teaching make sense, all of it should make sense, even if I don’t yet understand it.


I was wrong to grasp at the slightest bit of teaching that seemed reasonable while dismissing massive evidence to the contrary.


I was wrong to want to be told what to do.


I was wrong to suppress my own dissenting questions because of peer pressure.


I was wrong to want to get others to express support for our beliefs.


I was wrong to make myself feel guilty for being non-compliant.


I was wrong to want to make others feel guilty for being non-compliant.


I was wrong to continue supporting what I no longer believed in.


I was wrong to value security and familiarity over my conscience.


I was wrong to feel that all this was normal.


I was wrong to feel that I had no choice.


I was wrong to think that I would assure any real friendships just by belonging to an organization together.


And above all, I was wrong to not trust myself and my own better judgment.

I left because that period of my life was irrevocably over.

But the really interesting question for me right now is not “Why did you leave?”
Much more fascinating and perplexing is “Why did I stay so long?”

Best wishes to all, in or out.

9. 411 - November 19, 2009

Thank you Ames for posting #8. It says so much. Thank you Lisa for posting #2.

10. Skeptical Optimist - November 20, 2009

Hey, 411, didn’t you like #1?

There’s a bit of a discussion going on regarding Body Types if anyone’s interested over on GF. Here’s a link: http://bit.ly/2iFsd5

Ames, I just read that piece like an hour ago on GF. Odd, since I haven’t looked at this blog in maybe 6 months. Interesting how the process of disentanglement, deprogramming, takes so long. Hope you are well.

11. Skeptical Optimist - November 20, 2009

Oh, also, I publish articles every day at http://www.TheBookDesigner.com if anyone wants to visit, you’re more than welcome!

12. peter - November 20, 2009

Hi Panoritsa,

“and I am also concerned (but do not lie awake…) about the people who said that loved me when I was member… but they seem to be repulsed now…What is it actually they loved?

A few years ago I read some where something like, “people don’t love you for what you are, but they love you for the way you make them feel about themselves”

Hope you are well and as I read your note above it feels like you found jour own way …

And al those members of the fof … I guess there will always be cults and that there alway will be cultmembers …

Have a very good day

13. James Mclemore - November 20, 2009

A little more music especially for those who like guitar. Here is some Gypsys take on an old Gershwin tune. If you have never heard Stochelo Rosenberg or Bereli Lagrene you are in for a treat. And the guy sitting inbetween them ain’t bad either.

14. WhaleRider - November 20, 2009

“I know when you’ve been sleeping,
I know when you’re awake.
I know when you’ve been good or bad,
So be good for goodness sake.”

~Santa Claus

(Pardon my sophistry…)

15. veramente - November 20, 2009

14 WR

associations….
Santa Claus, Saint Nicholas,
Nick the Devil

Watch out! the “Fellowship of Friends” or “Pathways to Presence” looks so benign on the outside.
Just remember: rotten apples!

16. nige - November 20, 2009

Funny the ‘Pathway to Presence’ site has got this tale all arse-backwards, when applied to REB and his ‘fancy men’…..

“Arthur bases his reign upon noble principles. He creates a new order of law and justice, symbolized by his Round Table, which attracts the finest knights of the realm. Together they overcome evil, doing battle with the forces of chaos that prevail in the land. As a result, Arthur is able to rule over a unified kingdom that is harmonious and peaceful.

Arthur as king represents our ruling principle, that which must put our internal world in order—the “steward” in Fourth Way terms. Even the modern deck of playing cards shows the king of hearts with his sword upraised, ready to strike for a worthwhile cause.”

17. nige - November 20, 2009

And, of course, REB would want to play the queen…..

“Arthur’s beautiful queen Guinevere, however, falls in love with his best knight, Lancelot. Her adultery is discovered, and a battle ensues that destroys the Round Table, killing many of its knights and ravaging the land. In fairy tales and other stories of medieval courts, the queen is often depicted as a figure of passionate emotion, the kind of emotion necessary to fire great undertakings, whether noble or ignoble.

In a well-ordered court, the queen serves and loves the king, while each knight is also a servant to the king. In the Arthurian triangle, however, the queen turns from her lord, and in giving her love to a knight, falls away from her noblest choice. The knight betrays the king by no longer serving his ruler, but rather himself. The battle that results from this fateful triangle can be seen as a fight to restore unity and order to one’s lower self, so that it may return to its proper role of serving the highest. The king must use a show of force; his other knights must support him, and the queen must return to a recognition of what is highest, so that her energy can infuse the whole and keep it correctly pointed. “

18. nige - November 20, 2009

Funny how REB does not order his ‘lower self’…..Nigel.

19. X-ray - November 21, 2009

There is no REB, Nige, there is only RB.

20. peter - November 21, 2009

The social mechanism of a cult
My favorite part happens just before the first minute mark. That’s when guy #3 joins the group. Before him, it was just a crazy dancing guy and then maybe one other crazy guy. But it’s guy #3 who made it a movement. Guy #49 is irrelevant. No bravery points for being part of the mob.

21. peter - November 21, 2009

22. silentpurr - November 21, 2009

The problem with RB is that he is asleep to his lower self, his shadow.

23. nige - November 21, 2009

22 silentpurr

I have said it many times before – Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Frauds are the exact opposite of everything they purport to be…..Nigel

THE LOWERING OF TROUSERS CANNOT SEE THE HIRING OF SLAVE LABOUR.

24. 411 - November 21, 2009

I was telling a friend of mine today about the Pathway To Presence cult. I was explaining what a conscious being was (developing an astral body that exists after the expiration of the physical body) and that there were 44 of them (Lincoln, Franklin, Leonardo,,,,) that worked directly with our school. I explained how Robert Burton would tell us during meetings and dinners that they were hovering around us in the room. I told my friend how there was no way to verify any of that information. You just had to take the word of Robert.

I then explained how Robert considered himself a goddess in a man’s body and that he would routinely try to initiate sexual encounters with the heterosexual members of the cult. If you weren’t comfortable with letting your teacher perform oral on you, you could just tell him it wasn’t for you and that would be that, except a lot of guys let Robert try to give oral thinking; “why would the teacher lie about trying to advance my personal evolution.”

Hearing myself explaining all of this to my friend created a feeling of shock in myself. How did I remain for so long? Was it really the winery and the 1000 acres and the cultural environment and all the attractive women and the traveling, etc??

Crazy shit…………

25. WhaleRider - November 22, 2009

411:
Thank you for your fine example of what is known as…reality testing.

This is why in order to survive cults like the Fellowship of Friends aka Pathway to Presence need to keep their followers isolated from the rest of society and their family members…so the bizarre behavior becomes the status quo and over time the follower becomes too emeshed and dependent to leave.

IMO, be thanful, that shock you feel issues from your conscience.

I am SO grateful not to be in the position of having to explain my cult membership to anyone, especially my children. It makes me sick to think about it.

Burton would have you believe that “mechanical” shock inhibits your “evolution” and is a result of what the cult indoctrination calls “feminine dominance”. This dangerous concept is part of Burton’s delusional system which he uses to justify his mania and incite his followers to collude with his fraud.

26. Panoritsa - November 22, 2009

411.

I am trying to tell people as well. And that is exactly one of the definitions of a cult. I KNEW i could not tell people the shit I believed (and we all helped each other to believe). That’s why we were kept nicely in our illusions. Nicely tucked up and isolated.

It is really something hearing yourself talking the nonsense. Try it too. It shakes you up!

Last night I had dinner with two people (one at a directing position at the Red Cross organization, the other at the Médecins Sans Frontières). You will not meet people like this in the Pathway to Presence-Fellowship of Friends. They are probably laughed at (as Robert did for Mother Theresa and other humanists…), so if you are inside the walls of the cult and only have “real” contact with members of the cult (however nice and good people they are…), you are not allowing the space to meet human with different qualities (who do not advertise their degree of consciousness for example…).

Really, the prison walls begin in one’s mind…

27. Golden Veil - November 22, 2009

* Reading material for prospective students of Pathway to Presence

The following article is from the November 4, 1996 issue of the Los Angeles Times, and was first posted on this blog on March 28, 2007 by ‘more history needed?’.

L.A. Times/November 4, 1996

By Jenifer Warren

Oregon House, Calif.–Deep in the Sierra foothills, at the end of a twisting road, lies Apollo–an oasis of high culture in the outback. A mock French chateau houses a museum and library stuffed with rare art and books. A vineyard on terraced hillsides produces award-winning wines.

Apollo is the worldwide headquarters of the Fellowship of Friends, whose 2,000 cerebral members believe that keen self-awareness, a positive outlook and immersion in life’s finest things–from Baccarat crystal to Johann Sebastian Bach–offer a path to higher consciousness.

They have been led on this journey for 25 years by Robert Earl Burton, a former schoolteacher who has guided everything from when his followers bear children to what sort of shoes they wear. Burton tells members he speaks with 44 angels who watch over his flock–among them Abraham Lincoln, Plato and Jesus Christ–believers say. Burton also has predicted that Apollo will be the lone surviving outpost after a global nuclear holocaust in 2006.

Disillusioned former members say the fellowship is more than just another California curiosity. A growing number of them–as well as some academics–call it a cult that entraps its mostly well-educated members with a false promise of spiritual evolution. A recently ended lawsuit and accounts from ex-members echo that claim and add another: Burton, they say, has for years seduced young males in the group.

The suit and similar allegations by other members have spurred dozens to leave the group. It was brought by a Marin County man who claims Burton first demanded sex from him at age 17. Troy Buzbee, who had asked for $5 million in damages, charged that Burton brainwashes members into a state of “absolute submission,” allowing him to feed a “voracious appetite for sexual perversion.”

Fellowship officials and their attorney, Abraham Goldman, did not respond to repeated requests for interviews about the group and Burton. The Buzbee suit was settled late last month. Buzbee’s attorney, Ford Greene, would not comment except to say the case “is over.”

Several former members, including some who held high-level positions, said the details in the suit served to confirm for them what a number of followers had come to suspect about the 57-year-old Burton. “For years I ignored or justified a lot of things, but this I could not ignore,” said Pamella Cavanna, 54, who left the fellowship last year after devoting two decades and more than $250,000 to Burton and his teachings. “A teacher should have moral standards that we aspire to. Instead, Robert has standards we are forced to overlook.”

Former members, as well as court records, fellowship documents and Burton’s prolific writings to the faithful, reveal much about the group and a leader who rose from humble beginnings to command a little-known $26-million empire.

To outsiders, the fellowship can have an entrancing face. Its headquarters sprawl across 1,300 acres in Yuba County about 70 miles north of Sacramento. Its Renaissance winery produces cabernets and Rieslings that have been poured for American presidents and are respected by wine experts. The Apollo Opera company recently mounted an acclaimed production of Mozart’s “Don Giovanni” in nearby Grass Valley.

The fellowship also has a reputation in the art and antique world as a serious collector. The group recently liquidated its museum full of antique Chinese furniture, a collection considered among the world’s preeminent holdings. The collection fetched $11.2 million at Christie’s auction house in New York, where Disney chief Michael Ovitz was among the buyers, snagging a pair of elaborately carved cabinets for $607,500.

The winery, opera and antiques–along with the art, gardens, fountains, rare Persian carpets, inlaid Steinway pianos and other valuables sprinkled around the property–reflect the fellowship’s guiding philosophy. A refined social and cultural milieu, writes Burton, helps a believer “awaken his higher centers” and develop an immortal soul.

“Robert always used to say, ‘Beauty creates its likeness in those who pursue it,’ ” recalls one former member from Los Angeles who asked not to be named.

Attracting Followers

Burton commands an annual salary estimated by the group’s former chief financial officer at $250,000 or more. Members serve as his bodyguards and chauffeurs, and one is often assigned to record his observations for the faithful. Rarely seen around Yuba County, Burton travels frequently in Europe, where he meets with followers and shops for collectibles for his stately Louis XVI-style home on the Apollo grounds.

Partial to silk socks, Burton at one time insisted his underwear be pressed, say ex-members. He also enjoys golf, manicures, fresh flowers, fine wine–and food. Standing more than 6 feet tall, he is slender now but at one point weighed close to 300 pounds.

A butcher’s son born in Mineral, Ark., Burton graduated from San Jose State in 1963 and taught elementary school in Contra Costa County. In 1970, while living in a Volkswagen bus in Berkeley, he formed the fellowship, apparently after convincing a circle of followers that he possessed the powers of a superior being.

“He was quite wonderful then, a charming person of great knowledge,” recalled Stella Wirk, who was one of Burton’s first 10 students. Wirk said she and her husband were expelled from the group in the early 1980s after refusing to pay a $3,000 fine imposed by Burton for violating his rule against smoking.

Today, about 500 followers live and work at or near Apollo. Others live, work or study at more than 65 fellowship “teaching centers” worldwide. They hold regular jobs but, according to ex-members, socialize mainly among themselves and fill their off hours with meetings, dinners, concerts and other fellowship events.

Members are encouraged to limit contact with family and other outsiders whom Burton refers to as “dead” and “food for the moon.” “Men do not understand what an affliction it is to be average and to participate with the stagnate masses,” he once wrote.

The fellowship attracts followers who are highly educated and well-heeled. Believers tithe 10% of their income and make other “donations” throughout the year, according to the group’s literature. An average American member gives more than $6,000 annually, the wealthy much more, said Charles Randall, the fellowship’s former chief financial officer. He quit the group in 1994 after sending a letter to a fellowship official expressing disillusionment and advising him that men felt coerced to join Burton’s “harem.” Randall said the fellowship’s annual income exceeded $5 million when he left.

Many members joined after finding fellowship bookmarks planted in volumes at metaphysical bookstores. The bookmarks guide the curious to upcoming “prospective student” meetings, held at lavish homes rented by the fellowship. After attending three such meetings, a recruit is invited to join, according to a lengthy 1993 explanation of the group written by members and published in the Marysville Appeal-Democrat, a Yuba County newspaper.

The group’s roots are in the arcane teachings of two early 20th century Russian philosophers, George Gurdjieff and Peter Ouspensky, whose ideas are referred to as The Fourth Way. One central premise is that humans are spiritually “asleep” and must strive for constant self-awareness to achieve true consciousness. Disciples must also refrain from expressing negativity, such as complaining, gossiping or using defensive body language. Such behavior is said to drain energy needed for the pursuit of enlightenment.

“It’s all very stimulating stuff in the beginning–the ideas, the caliber of the people you meet, the music, the fancy dinners, Walt Whitman, all the culture,” said Ron Lancaster, a member for nine years who joined while working at Hughes Aircraft Co. in El Segundo and left over Burton’s alleged sexual conduct. “But there’s no doubt it’s a cult. Our lives were totally controlled.”

Over the years, the members’ personal hygiene, pets, hobbies, reading material and diet all have been influenced by Burton, often through written pronouncements.

In a June 1980 issue of the Renaissance Vine, a bulletin for members, they were told “the exercise of not expressing wit . . . has been resumed.” At one point, Burton told members to trade their eyeglasses for contact lenses because “it makes the face a more beautiful impression.” Any “discomfort from wearing the lenses,” Burton said, “is good for voluntary suffering.”

Another time he told married couples to wait five years before bearing children. Premarital sex and adultery were explicitly prohibited, as were homosexual relationships until the early 1990s, ex-members said. For a long period, women were required to wear skirts.

Members were notified in 1979 that “a new exercise begins this month: We are to avoid placing our elbows on flat surfaces such as tables or desks; armchairs are fine. . . . Additionally, we are asked to avoid using the word ‘thing,’ beginning August 1.” To help shock members into spiritual wakefulness, Burton has periodically banned the use of such everyday terms as “I,” “really,” “oh” and “hi.”

“It was strange,” said Lancaster. “Instead of saying, ‘I’ll have a cup of coffee,’ you’d say, ‘It wants a cup of coffee’ or just, ‘Cup of coffee.’ ”

As part of his emphasis on refined living, Burton once sought to turn his flock into a replica of an 18th century English aristocracy. Members took Anglicized names and were told to use their utensils in the European fashion, with the fork in the left hand, tines pointed down. During this period, the common “cookie” became a “biscuit.”

Inside the Fellowship

Burton is also regarded by followers as a prophet. When he forecast a worldwide recession in 1984, believers urgently stockpiled provisions and weapons. He has predicted that a 1998 earthquake will consume the West Coast but spare Apollo. As for the 2006 apocalypse, Burton says Apollo is an “eternal city” that will preserve culture for the ages. Some ex-believers say now that Burton’s rules and pronouncements were a distraction, Wirk said, “to keep us from reflecting on what was really going on.” At the time, however, the members said they followed Burton faithfully, believing that obedience would accelerate their spiritual growth.

“When people join these groups, they don’t go in planning to surrender their critical thinking and personal autonomy to the will of the big kahuna. But that’s exactly what happens,” said Joel Friedlander, a fellowship member for 22 years who was editor of Burton’s 1991 book, “Self-Remembering.”

“The indoctrination is so complete, and the peer pressure so great, that gradually the old you is replaced by a new you who believes all the propaganda, including the line that eternal damnation is the price of getting out.”

Margaret Singer, a professor emeritus of psychology at UC Berkeley and a cult expert, said the fellowship uses techniques common to many cults. Veneration of a single living leader, authoritarian structure and intensive control of members’ lives fit the classic profile, she said.

“They look for people who are a bit lonely or needy and they shower them with love, making them feel special,” said Singer, who has tracked the fellowship and talked with many alumni. “From there, the control and manipulation happen one step at a time.”

With the fellowship, Singer said, “it’s all centered around giving money to Burton . . . his personality sets the tone and controls every little thing the group does.”

Once in the fellowship, members become addicted to the feeling of belonging to a blessed elite, ex-believers say. Leaving that behind–especially after large investments of time and money over a period of many years–takes tremendous will, they say.

“It was terrifying to leave, because you’re trained to view outsiders as this mass of sleeping humanity with no possibility,” said a Bay Area woman who spent 20 years as a traveling teacher in the group. “And when you finally do get out, the fellowship community–95% of all the people you’ve known for the last 20 years–just drops you. You feel like you’ve wasted your life and have no place in the world.”

Many ex-members said they were not spurred to leave until allegations emerged about Burton’s sexual behavior. For years, they said, the teacher’s alleged conduct was unknown because of strict rules against gossiping or speaking ill of him. Moreover, they said, Burton claimed to be celibate, saving his sexual energy for the good of his flock. Word of the leader’s alleged habits first slipped out in 1984, when Samuel Sanders–a former member of the fellowship board of directors–sued the group, claiming fraud and alleging that Burton used his “god-figure role” to prey sexually upon impressionable young men. The Sanders suit–which was settled in 1988–led an estimated 100 members to quit.

A similar number left in 1995 after ex-member Richard Buzbee wrote an open letter to the fellowship’s followers, claiming that Burton had demanded sex from him and had a sexual relationship with Buzbee’s son, Troy, for many years.

Troy Buzbee, now 27, sued last April, claiming that Burton first seduced him when Buzbee was 17. Declaring himself “an angel in a man’s body,” Burton allegedly told Buzbee that the gods wished for the two to be close.

“Burton would kiss [Troy Buzbee] on the forehead, which he said represented the seat of the soul and then instruct [Buzbee] to ’separate’ from his body and just ‘let go,’ ” said the suit, which alleged the sexual encounters continued for more than five years and that Burton had sex with other young men. Although Buzbee said he was repulsed and suffered “self-loathing,” his “brain was programmed to believe that there was no place to go,” the lawsuit said.

Troy Buzbee is now married with a young daughter. He declined to be interviewed after the suit was settled, said his lawyer.

Numerous other ex-members have told similar stories in open letters to the membership and to each other, in newspaper accounts and in interviews with The Times.

[John Doe], Burton’s secretary and chauffeur in the mid-1970s, has alleged that Burton forced him to have oral sex on many occasions, assuring [Doe] that surrendering to him would “please the gods and help my soul evolve.

“To understand how this can happen, you have to realize that this man is considered the height of the human species, the second Christ, the light,” [Doe], a member for 18 years and now an artist in South Lake Tahoe, told The Times. “Your instinct, of course, is to run away and refuse him. But how do you reject the teacher, the person in whom you’ve placed all your faith?”

[Doe] has copies of letters from other ex-members describing sexual relationships with Burton. [Doe] wrote to Goldman seeking an apology from Burton, and in a June 9, 1990, response the fellowship attorney wrote that Burton was willing to apologize if [Doe] agreed not to sue in the future. [Doe’s] charges were reported in 1993 in the Marysville Appeal-Democrat.

Bruce Levy, an ex-member who restores rare books in Grass Valley, also has discussed having a sexual relationship with Burton. “No one held a gun to my head,” said Levy in an interview with The Times, “but in a spiritual sense, he did. Under his teachings, one has to do what one doesn’t want to do in order to evolve spiritually. . . . It’s the least you can do for your teacher.”

Goldman, Burton’s attorney, acknowledged in a 1995 article in the San Diego Union that the leader had sex with the senior Buzbee and at least one other male follower. Goldman said it was Burton’s policy not to make public comments, and added that “we don’t think a [sexual] relationship between a leader and a member of the congregation is abusive in and of itself.”

Good Neighbors

Despite the controversy around Burton, the fellowship enjoys a relatively comfortable coexistence with its neighbors in Oregon House, a wisp of a town populated by retirees and urban refugees. In the early years, locals were wary of the newcomers, who poured in with chain saws to clear manzanita and terraced the hills to plant grapevines. The group also raised suspicions by closing a county road that crossed its property and buying up surrounding land when it became available.

Yuba County Assessor David Brown said the fellowship has rankled some people by seeking special tax exemptions to avoid paying property taxes, which totaled $273,000 last year. When one exemption–for the Apollo museum–was denied, the fellowship took the matter to court but ultimately lost. The fellowship is exempt from state and federal income taxes as a religious organization.

“At first . . . there was a lot of anxiety about them,” said former county Supervisor John Mistler. “But they’ve worked hard on their image.”

Some civic leaders now view the fellowship and its Renaissance winery–the county’s third-largest taxpayer–as a source of pride. The group keeps a stretch of road litter-free through the state’s Adopt-a-Highway program and gives generously to the local Lions Club. “This year, they’ve offered $10,000 toward our new community center, and around here, that’s a big deal,” said Ken Eaton, a retired contractor in Oregon House. “We don’t understand them, but we live with them.”

Meanwhile, ex-members say they live with lingering effects of their time at Apollo. One woman, who has been out of the group for two years, cannot listen to Bach without feeling a chill. Another catches herself standing in a daze in the supermarket, unable to make decisions such as which brand of soap to buy.

Janja Lalich, who runs a support group for ex-cult members in Alameda and who has counseled fellowship alumni, said such “mental traumas can be devastating.”

“The real tragedy of groups like the fellowship,” she said, “is they rip off the best and brightest people in society and use them like slaves for years. When these people get out–if they get out–there’s an awful lot of pain to overcome.”

Scott Wilson of The Times library contributed to this story.

written by:
Jenifer Warren
Los Angeles Times, Capitol Bureau
Sacramento, California
jenifer.warren@latimes.com
(916) 445-8860

28. Golden Veil - November 22, 2009

* More recommended reading for prospective students of
Pathway to Presence *

On School Payments, this was previously posted as shown.

* * *
Comrade Says:

March 19, 2007 at 8:46 pm

In this discussion group, at least a few people have mentioned the 10% payments that are required to remain in the Fellowship of Friends. However, it’s important to note that the actual amount that you contribute is much higher than 10%. If you are a “regular” member, here’s how it works:

– Each month, you contribute 10% of your gross income, i.e., 10% of the amount that you earn before taxes are taken out.
– You also contribute a “special donation” of $255 each month.
– Twice a year, Spring and Fall, you must contribute additional amounts of $775, or a total of $1,550.
– In December, you contribute an additional $100.

For example, if your gross salary is $50,000 per year. you will pay:

$5,000 for the 10% monthly payments
3,060 for the monthly special donations
1,550 for the Spring and Fall donations
___100 for the December donation
$9,710 total

So with a salary of $50,000 per year, the actual amount that you pay is not 10% of your salary, but 19.42%.
Since approximately 30% of your gross income is taken out of your paycheck by the state and federal governments, you are left with $35,000 per year in gross income. Subtract the $9,710 that you donate to the Fellowship, and you are left with $25,290 per year, or $2,108 per month to pay rent, buy food, pay your bills, buy clothes, etc.

Tax write-offs are helpful, because over the course of the year you can essentially add another $200 per month to your available income assuming the above salary.

However, it’s good to remember that you must also pay to attend various large gatherings at the Isis property. This includes meetings, receptions, dinners, fund-raising auctions, raffles, and artistic performances. So to be an “active” member of the Fellowship who actually participates in the events and interacts with your fellow students at large gatherings, you need to pay even more than the standard donations mentioned above. These amounts can run into the hundreds of dollars per month if you truly wish to remain active.

Needless to say, making just $50,000 per year is not enough to remain in the school and keep your finances healthy — let alone make a trip to Egypt. What often occurs is that members end up using their credit cards for many of the above payments, and therefore build huge debts. Someone once said the credit card companies “are in the business of separating you from your money.” This is one way they can accomplish that — by accepting large transactions with religious organizations such as the Fellowship.

By the way, if you’re making $100,000 a year, here are the totals:

$10,000 for the 10% monthly payments
3,060 for the monthly special donations
1,550 for the Spring and Fall donation
___ 100 for the December donation
$14,710 total (or 14.7% of your income)

So this leaves you with about $50,000 per year to pay your bills, or over $4,000 per month. So obviously as you make more money, the easier it is to remain in the Fellowship. But contributing to your 401k account for long-term security? Even at $100,000 per year, a person needs to reduce or eliminate their 401k contribution, or use their credit cards if they wish to participate in the dinners, auctions, fundraisers, lotteries, and so on. Of course, having a large bank account to begin with will help, but tapping into your savings to remain in the Fellowship has its long-term consequences even for those who are making six figures.

The Fellowship does occasionally help people who are having trouble by reducing their payments on a temporary basis. And if you are a member of the Fellowship who falls into a certain “category,” your payments may be reduced. This includes married mothers, single parents (only one parent is eligible), disabled students, unemployed members, and full-time college students, etc.

Anyone is welcome to critique the math above… But the point is, it’s a considerable sum, and we often don’t think about the consequences of these large payments. I sense that this topic is very uncomfortable for members to discuss. It usually begins and ends with the Gurdjieff quotation related to our attitude about money. But this is one of the central issues of this entire blog – the amount of money that members are contributing to the Fellowship and the buffers that are connected to this topic.

* * *

29. rock that boat - November 23, 2009

More recommended reading for prospective students of
Pathway to Presence *

So now you pay your 10%, and all the extra donations, Fall, Spring,
etc. That allows you to be a member. But this does not allow you access to any teaching meetings at all!! So now you want to get your money’s worth? Meaning, learning from your Teacher? That is EXTRA!!! You want to go to the Sunday morning meeting? That is a walloping $60 for standing, or should you want to sit on a chair that will cost you $100!

30. Golden Veil - November 23, 2009

29. rock that boat

You’re kidding, right? If you’re not kidding, what time period did you experience this fee schedule? That is, if you don’t mind my asking…

31. nige - November 23, 2009

28 Golden Veil

Something that is rarely said, but carries a great deal of weight regarding all these donations…..

ESSENCE GIVES NO THOUGHT TO THE IDEA OF MAKING MONEY.

Therefore you can see that this ‘higher self’/’lower self’ rubbish bears no fruit when it comes down to The Master, Real ‘I’ or The Self…..

THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS IS A CON TRICK!!!!!…..Nigel.

32. Golden Veil - November 23, 2009

*

I paid nothing in the U.S. for months as a “visiting european student”.
I visited “Renaissance” and paid nothing there either. This was in 1985. Perhaps times have changed…

33. JustDiscussing - November 23, 2009

Those are the US teaching payments. They’re particularly tough on people who are just going off salary and struggling to make ends meet. It took many of us months to save up for the seasonal donations.

34. Golden Veil - November 23, 2009

*

I have been told that Gurdjieff often asked his wealthy students to donate funds for the running of his school, and that he often used these funds to actually support many of his less fortunate students. I was told that he also used his funds to rescue students that were caught in oppressive and dangerous political situations in Russia.

He never lived an opulent lifestyle. He used the money to benefit his students and as needed for their welfare. There are probably Gurdjieff scholars out there that know a few more details…

“When you make a world tolerable for yourself, you make a world tolerable for others.”

[Anais Nin]

*

35. Just the Facts Ma'am - November 23, 2009

27. Golden Veil:
L.A. Times/November 4, 1996:
‘Burton travels frequently in Europe, where he meets. . .’ with his worldwide network of sexual liaisons (read: heterosexual male prostitutes persuaded to homosexual acts). Several European countries, it is believed, consider him persona non grata (literally meaning ‘an unwelcome person’) because of various international illegal activities associated with the male sex slave traffic, amongst other things, it may be alleged. It could be said of the situation: ‘a storm in every port;’ to characterize the sexual habits practiced.

28. Golden Veil:
‘Comrade Says:
March 19, 2007 at 8:46 pm:
The Fellowship does occasionally help people who. . .includes married mothers, single parents (only one parent is eligible), disabled students, unemployed members, and full-time college students, etc.’
Based on accounts of bookkeeper(s) processing the ‘donations,’ very special ‘financial’ circumstances are extended to those making the very special donations of sperm on a regular basis. Again, ‘a storm in every port,’ is the way to go.
‘. . .this topic is very uncomfortable for members to discuss.’

Other recent posts, portions of posts, and reposts, are acknowledged as fairly close to accurate but certainly biased by the outside-looking-in on the inside-out, upside-down, bass-ackwards, of the cult. [Don’t forget about the STD’s (sexually transmitted diseases) that are freely passed around. (Oh! we are so very careful and intentional, are we not, goodness?)] Pathway to Presence is a Fellowship of Friends, the new and advanced civilisation.

36. arthur - November 23, 2009

Californians write or call your state representative and ask them to support AB390. It’s all about Marijuana.

I’ve heard it has both physical and psychological “medical” benefits.
That being the case, “light up or vaporize” some to help the “pain” of being HAD by Robert Burton’s act.

And, if there are any outlaws on this blog–sneak me some. I’ve got a lot of pain to heal.

37. rock that boat - November 23, 2009

30. Golden Veil – November 23, 2009

I left 2+ years ago. These payments were the rules already for many years. I would rarely go to meetings, could not afford it, but I did pay my 10 percent and all the other donations. What was I thinking?
I wasn’t, I was brainwashed. BRAIN didn’t GET IT!

38. Golden Veil - November 23, 2009

*

I find the $60/$100 Sunday morning teaching fees unbelievable.

The Pathway to Presence window dressing must be really special

in order to draw in new ‘Students’. Is the heterosexual activity

really that high, and are there more opportunities than outside?

Are there really known cases of STD being spread among

‘Students’? If so, what kinds os STDs? Good information for

prospective ‘Students’ to know.

Do attractive ‘Students’ appear to have a role in recruitment?

Or do I go too far?

*

39. silentpurr - November 24, 2009

Gurdjieff was beloved of his students. We know, because everything written about him or by him conveys his great respect for human essence. In the rare film footage, you can see the ease and spontaneity
with which he and his students relate with one another. Unlike RB and
his group of the emotionally paralyzed. And we were.

40. Daily Cardiac - November 24, 2009

WhaleRider:

“The “spirit world” is a metaphor for the unseen forces and mythic archetypes of the unconscious mind…Apparently, you believe in a literal spirit world.”

Tatyana:

“Neither was I looking for verification of higher forces, because in the 4th way books there are no higher forces.”

James Mclemore:

“DC said,
“This discussion is supposed to be about spiritual matters;”

He is mistaken. Actually he knows better, and he only wishes it was about that. He wishes it was about almost anything other than what it really is, and then tries his best to develop conversation about other topics.”

I guess it was silly of me to propose a spiritual discussion when it appears the spirit part of spiritual is not much believed in or valued by ex members. The big picture is slowly coming into focus.

The FoF professes to be an esoteric school based on spirituality, based on development of the spirit.

So if one does not put much stock into that realm, or as it seems from WhaleRider, does not even believe in it, it’s no wonder there would be a disconnect with an organization that centers it’s teachings on the existence of a spirit world that governs over human kind and closely monitors all man’s dealings. A spirit world that can be and has been verified by hundreds of members.

Now that I think of it I really don’t remember any ex members conversing, long or short, frequently or infrequently, on any level, about a deity, higher forces, gods, angels, creator. It appears they have substituted synchronicity for a deity.

In the mean time I’m including various comments from the core group of ex members who post here, all addressed to me or about me in the span of about a week back on page 85.

Keep in mind that these comments represent complete postings, not excerpts from longer posts. If I would have included excerpts of a similar nature the list would have been three times longer.

Why are these comments significant? They are significant because each of these posts represented a lost opportunity to refute, through force of reason and adhering to basic principles of discussion, the very issues ex members are consumed with but never actually discuss in a reasonable way.

In order for a reasonable discussion to take place any participant first of all would have to recognize when they are stating an opinion and be honest and detached enough to see when a statement consists of an opinion and nothing more – Definition of Opinion : “a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.”

One would also have to recognize the difference between the written word, i. e. testimony, facts*(sometimes the facts lie) and verifiable truth. One would have to acknowledge that the one thing no one can know for sure is someone else’s motivations as to why they did or said something – especially in spiritual matters – as motivation often runs counter to appearance; just as the spirit’s needs often run counter to the physical body’s needs.

It goes without saying that no spiritual truth can be arrived at through negativity – anger, hatred, revenge, etc. because that is all part of the lower realm and is exactly what must be transcended if spiritual truth is to be known.

You (any open minded readers) will notice immediately the nature of the comments being quoted below: mean spirited, vulgar, sarcastic, condescending, dismissive and generally of a negative and demeaning quality.

I ask you then – are these the words of individuals you would want to cast your spiritual well being with?

These authors will respond with their reasons why it was necessary or important to respond to me in this way, so beforehand I’ll say it again – anyone can write anything, pass anything off as truth for no other reason than because it issued forth from their keyboard. Of course that’s not a reason.

They are revealing their real nature in spite of their efforts to insinuate the opposite. It’s here for all to consider and anyone with a beating heart and the slightest inkling to touch the divine will see it for what it is. I certainly don’t have to label it.

Any open minded individual reading this, do yourself a favor. Leave this posting open on your monitor (the part where ex members comments are listed) and then go to “Pathways to Presence” and view both pages together – scroll down this posting, read a few comments of ex members, and then read the contents of “Pathways to Presence” and judge for yourself who the bearers of spiritual truth are.

An ex member recently called the PTP site “alluring.” You will find it to be much more than alluring, much more than compelling. If you are searching for spiritual truth you will find it irresistible, like finding a long lost friend.

But for now, please judge the following statements according to your own sense of worth and reason:

“Pure excrement, DC. What are you eating?”

“Give me a break. You don’t need to spend quality time with dog shit to know it stinks.”

“Ok. I’m an ex-member. The FOF is not a “rape factory”. However the Fellowship of Friends is a Doofus factory. And a factory for sleazy lawyers, psychiatrists and psycho olive oilers.”

“You know DC there is another experience that I sometimes have when I read your posts…”Yeah, me too, but it is a little different. It is kinda like there is a gaggle of maggots in the center of my brain which begin wiggling and gobbling their way out until they get to the neural pathways controlling the jaw muscles causing it to fall slack.”

“I do not read DC’s posts. However, I read them about 1.5 years ago and his completely messed up mind propelled me to take the decision and leave the cult.’

“Daily Thumbtack,

DC – Aristotle said “Man is a political animal.” He could have also said that “Man is a lying animal.” He could also have said, “You’re a smug jackass”. But more likely, had he read the above, could have said, “Holy Zeus, what an intolerably pretentious pinhead”.

“His way of thinking really helps to see how screwed up you can become in the Fellowship of Friends (check Pathway to Presence too, because they are re-doing their image…).”

“I mentioned this to you before, but I’ll say it again. Your posts are nothing more than pre-adolescent intellectual masturbation. What’s astounding is your lack of conscience and complete lack of self-awareness in that you have no shame or hesitation about whipping it out and doing it here in front of all of us. You are the fool of the farce. You are, as I mentioned before, the guy on the subway who exposes himself for a reaction yet doesn’t perceive the disgust he elicits.”

“disingenuous?!?!? you have no clue… you’re truly an absurd ass…”

“I think it is good he talks here. But he is not well. And he needs help. And he will not get it as long as he stays in the cult. Have a nice day! :-0”

“Come on, have a heart.
After all, DC has nowhere to go that he is not openly or secretly reviled. At least some of us are honest. He is a fine example of what the FoF stands for.”

“To talk to Daily Crap it’s like playing tennis with the wall, there is nobody there.”

‘Mark Twain might have said – “Daily Cardiac’s posts were written by Girard Haven or by someone calling himself Daily Cardiac”. The fact is, it is the same, slowed down, formatory, convoluted, not making sense, CRAP! ”

“My apologies for the mistake. Who cares who It is? Inanity thy name don’t matter.”

“why do I get the feeling someone does not receive enough attention in the cult?”

“Daily trash,
You either conscienceless fof worker, who paid to do what you are doing, or you truly are believing in your daily crap.
In any case, your efforts fruitless, because your teacher’s actions speaking for themselves.”

“I don’t know how you guys make it thru DC’s posts.
I can’t make it thru one paragraph, it stinks like shit.”

‘Yes, Daily Crap is a real idiot, but if he the best they have, imagine how stupid others?”

“As the blog continually engages in conversation with this fucking moron I’m beginning to
believe the blog and DC deserve each other.”
“Instead, I’m going to have some real fun and find someone to give me a root canal without anesthetic.”

“Daily Crap,
You are one sick motherfucker, who deserves the worse, like your pathetic Robert Burton.
I wish you both to share a jail cell.”

“Daily Crap,
Your aim is to mislead and to distract.
You are a Burton’s whore, who getting paid for doing what you do.”

“Your robot logic is coming unglued. You are like HAL in 2001 a Space Odyssey. Open the pod bay doors Dave…. Dave…..Daisy, Daisy……Goodbye robot.”

“And don’t forget, dear friends, that the staggering level of idiocy that DC has achieved can only be accomplished after decades of mind-numbing & emotionally castrating toadying.”

“You, my friend, are a child. You ask for reason while living in a mythic world of fantasy.”

“DC-ism -Banal FOF witch hunt of fueled fears, accusations of disloyalty and unsubstantiated accusations to justify and protect it’s Cult leader Robert Burton”

“Don’t fall in this trap of wasting energy on this guy/woman”

“I agree with that.
Talking to DC reasonably is useless because he lack of just about every thing to have this type of conversation with him. He proved his idiocy over and over again.. He is a true reflection of the FoF, and to have him here is good, so people can listen to him and make their own conclusions.”

“Thank you Opus for your reasonable post, but I’m afraid you will be disappointed by Daily Crap’s response, if there will be any.”

“No, please stay there. Keep being complete with oneself and suck up all the joy and salvation you can get. You deserve it.
I wish you the best of luck.’

“My guess is “he” is a non-suckee. RB doesn’t really like his type, except for money. Apologists and defenders are frequently those who have to create their own imaginary worth in lieu of sexual attention by defending the indefensible (flying monkey).”

“DC must have claimed the position of talking asshole for the FOF, especially if he is behind the bullshit PR on their site. Fits nicely. Whether he wrote it or not I don’t think I could hold him in lower esteem than I do already. He the perfect mouthpiece. There’s a special ring in hell for him (within his cosmology, not mine).”

“How strange……..
All of those words that he uses and yet it appears he can no longer ‘think’”.

“You are such a douche”

“Fuck you you fucking motherfucking fuck.”

41. 411 - November 24, 2009

This is from 4/22/08 and it is worth reposting. It’s from David B.
——————————————————-
“I think it’s been about one year since this blog really started getting a lot of participation, and I was just thinking about the changes (or lack of changes) that have occurred since then. At that time there was quiet a torrent of outrage against Robert and his misdeeds. People were leaving the FOF in droves. Lots of folks were sharing their stories about all the stuff that had happened to them while in the Fellowship. There were so many sincere, eloquent voices that perfectly articulated what was wrong with Robert and the FOF, and why any sane person would leave immediately. There were lots of first hand accounts of the many unethical, if not illegal, activities that occurred. I was optimistic that the FOF would soon come to an end.

This blog was such a godsend, both for those of us that had already left and needed some kind of closure to that episode of our lives, as well as for those that were ‘on the fence’ and needed some advice and guidance from those who had made it to the other side.

The main reason I continue to read here is to see what might be transpiring in regard to bringing the Fellowship to an end. I am grateful to those folks that have been here for the duration and continue to write interesting, thoughtful posts. I’m also grateful for those who took it upon themselves to put together the petition (I would have written a story myself, but my role in the FOF was such that I don’t really have any first hand knowledge of any illegal activities). I can recall so many who once wrote insightful, spot-on posts who don’t seem to be here anymore, unfortunately.

Although there never was a precise, clearly defined, agreed upon objective for this blog, it always seemed to me that one thing that united all (or at least most) of us was that we all thought that Robert was an abusive charlatan who should be exposed for what he is. So what has happened to bring that about? What is the status of the petition? There was some talk awhile back about an article in the Sacramento Bee. Does anyone know anything about that? I’m not complaining. And I’m certainly not in a position to do much about it myself. I guess I’m just a little concerned that we seem to have lost a little steam, or whatever. What has happened to all the people who used to participate here? Are you all still out there – just reading, not writing much – like I have been?

Well, I was just wondering about all that, so I’ll just put this out there to see if it gets any response.”

42. Mikey - November 24, 2009

Dear Lord! He’s listening and repeating every fucking bad word that’s been said. Lighten up assholes.

43. Kid Shelleen - November 24, 2009

Dear Daily Cardiac:

Are you Carl Rove?

p.s. I really like that last one, but isn’t that what Susie Essman said to Larry David on an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm?

And for any readers who are here out of spiritual curiousity, the one’s addressed in DC’s post, I do hope you can recognize propaganda when you read it. If not, you just might be what this group is looking for.

44. ton - November 24, 2009

dc 40 —
nothing gets through to you… this is evidenced by the fact that you do not understand why people here react and respond to you in the way that they do. one reason nothing gets through that barrier you call a “brain” — is clearly stated in your own words:

“In order for a reasonable discussion to take place any participant first of all would have to recognize when they are stating an opinion and be honest and detached enough to see when a statement consists of an opinion and nothing more…”

come on dc, do your homework and go look in a mirror before you project your distortions and bullshit onto others…. do you really think you are stating anything other than your opinions here? are you so delusional?!

the following words from dc represent yet another perfect example of a MEME, a BELIEF an OPINON that inculcates the cult, the sole purpose of which is controlling and pacifying the cult members:

“It goes without saying that no spiritual truth can be arrived at through negativity – anger, hatred, revenge, etc. because that is all part of the lower realm and is exactly what must be transcended if spiritual truth is to be known…”

in their dualistic “system” of “thought” (read: mind control) these unfortunate cultists are taught and impressed by frequent repetitions and admonitions, one of which is that expressing “negativity” constitutes a “sin.” this belief does not allow them to see that sometimes anger and criticism IS the only “reasonable” response to a situation. the result of the belief as expressed here by dc, is a stifling repression and self-editing form of mind-control that reduces or eliminates the natural processes of any critical inquiry into the truth and reality of the situation in which they find themselves. anything approaching an objective view of the shackles that bind the minds of the cultists is avoided; adherence to a belief such as dc expresses in the quote above, ensures the pacification and contributes to the sensations of comfort and support as a member of the flock.

although dc states here that “it goes without say…” he has to say it anyway… this is an example of how the frequent repetition of beliefs and opinions and “circular thinking” functions as a system of self-reinforcing mind-control; when a BELIEF or an OPINION is repeated over and over and over again, it is “taken for granted” and treated as “gospel” or “truth.” the result of existence in such a closed system is that the once opened and questioning mind becomes closed and eventually atrophies…. thinking processes are replaced by the circular arguments that are passed off as “reasoning” by the deluded mind that is riddled with and controlled by the inculcations implanted by the cult… this is once again and continually demonstrated here by the likes of a dc… thanks dc.

45. Panoritsa - November 24, 2009

DC

“It goes without saying that no spiritual truth can be arrived at through negativity – anger, hatred, revenge, etc. because that is all part of the lower realm and is exactly what must be transcended if spiritual truth is to be known…”

And this comes from a follower and “humble” slave of Robert Burton.

It is very clear you do NOT want to know, but if you were to ask ALL of the members (ex- and current) who have had the “opportunity” to “work” with Burton whether he expresses negativity, you will hear the truth (well… some will not tell you… but most will). Robert is a very negative person. I have seen him, I have felt his “negativity.” He is not a pleasant person to be around in private…

Now, you might want to again manipulate your already manipulated poor little brain and come with an argument about how he “transforms” his negativity and his “lower self”, or that he has reached such immense level of consciousness that little slips are just his “machine” reactions to the “high” energies he experiences.

Yes, you can go on and on… Where do you find the time?

46. Panoritsa - November 24, 2009

oh yes, and his negativity has been described and justified is:

“he is real Saturn-Mars, but very martial you know, no Solar…he really knows what he wants and he has a really high standard…because he is Gold alchemy, and he has two queeny elements, he is the queen of the king of the emotional centre… volatile…but very perceptive…”

For the outsiders the gibberish does not make any sense… For most of us, here you have three good tools to manipulate human being and control their thinking… It works!

Voila! And yes, he has been transforming all the suffering in the universe… for so many many many many years…

47. Yesri Baba - November 24, 2009

43 Kid Shelleen

“Fuck you you fucking motherfucking fuck.”

p.s. I really like that last one, but isn’t that what Susie Essman said to Larry David on an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm?

Not exactly. I put a little spin on it to make my own- wouldn’t want to be accused of stealing intellectual property. But i guess the jigs up.

48. veramente - November 24, 2009

DC 40
are you an accountant?

Poor DC your spiritual beauty shines over this lower self blog world!
Your reason is your treason.

49. Ames Gilbert - November 24, 2009

Daily Cardiac,
You are setting up a false argument when you ask readers to compare the collected comments of your detractors you’ve collected together to the blandishments of the FoF website. First, I don’t recall any of those who made comments setting themselves up as objective spiritual authorities or even ‘bearers of spiritual truth’; the FoF/PTP and Burton (and you yourself) clearly do. Commentators are not inviting readers to join their organizations; the FoF is clearly doing so. Sure, some of the comments you have collected are reactive and probably don’t advance the conversation very much, but IMO you don’t contribute much yourself, whatever your claims to the contrary.

You mention the reference to the PTP site being “alluring”, and claim that any open seeker will find it irresistible. You forget that the Silentpurr, like the rest of us who have left, was allured by the claims of the Fellowship of Friends, and after spending considerable time, effort, and money, found no substance behind the allure. There was a lure, but we found it was ‘bait and switch’. The bait was the Fourth Way, and we were switched to the Second Way, a religion based on the worship of Burton and his collection of conveniently invisible helpers, the theoretical 44 astral bodies of supposedly ‘conscious’ beings. A religion like any other in that it uses fear or infatuation to bind the followers. A religion like any other that claims it is the only true one, that it has an exclusive pathway to salvation, that all other religions are false, that followers are singularly blessed, that to leave is damnation. A religion like any other that demands faith, credulity and childlike (and permanent) dependence. A religion like any other that necessitates intermediaries between the supplicant and God.

You advocate for the Pathways to Presence website. Is it because it is so pretty? Is the language so refined? Sure it’s pretty; the Fellowship of Friends has recruited some talented designers and writers in its time. We are here to tell readers that the prettiness hides something awful, that behind the facade there is rottenness, lies and corruption. That Burton is a charlatan and a liar, and has been from the start. That the man in the meeting who spouts pre-digested platitudes about presence in a soft, hypnotic voice with compelling aura of self-certainty has most likely just come from a sexual encounter with heterosexual men, where he once more promised that acting against their inclinations would ‘advance their spiritual evolution’. We are here to say that the soft voice is likely because his throat is still clogged with sperm, the calm assurance is perhaps the result of tranquilizers, and his monologs have a dreamy quality because he is musing on his last sexual conquest or planning the next one. We are here to tell readers, not that your personal subjective experiences have no value to you, but that your arguments that Burton is a legitimate teacher are demonstrably false and spurious.

Daily Cardiac, ask yourself why you defend the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Earl Burton. If you have verified that he is a ‘conscious teacher’, and that agents of the ‘spirit world’ exist and are helping you and other co–dependents, then that knowledge should be unassailable. Ditto the ‘hundreds of members’ who you claim have also verified this stuff. Take comfort in the sure knowledge that we are the equivalent of doomed ants about to be crushed by incomprehensible forces who have it in for unbelievers and traitors. Why should ‘C-Influence’, as you conceive it, need a bunch of little helpers like you anyway?

You attract comments from exasperated readers who show their exasperation openly. You concentrate on the language but not the message. What is the message for you, Daily Cardiac, and can you learn to recognize and value it?

50. James Mclemore - November 24, 2009

DC wrote (in reference to the bloggers on this site)
“They are revealing their real nature in spite of their efforts to insinuate the opposite. It’s here for all to consider and anyone with a beating heart and the slightest inkling to touch the divine will see it for what it is. I certainly don’t have to label it.”

45. Panoritsa said…

“Robert is a very negative person. I have seen him, I have felt his “negativity.” He is not a pleasant person to be around in private…”

Some of the most chilling stories on this blog are the ones where Robert Burton, the Pathway to Presence leader’s dark side has been seen and experienced. So, beware you folks out there who are looking for spiritual information or groups that you think have something to offer. This man has a side not shown to everyone. It has been described as ‘infantile’, ‘spiteful’, ‘childishly jealous’, and ‘hateful’. There are stories documented here that reflect the ‘revenge’ he has sought on those whom he thinks have crossed him or might be keeping him from what he wishes. There is a letter he wrote to a dying and long-time student warning them if they can’t make their monetary payment that their higher possibilities will come to a bad end. Is this the sort of leader or teacher you are looking for?

Burton also has a history of lying to his followers. This should be a giveaway to anyone searching for Truth. Lying and Truth?? Sounds like something is not quite right, does it not? This man lied to his whole organization for years about being celibate. He finally admitted to what was going on in secret only when he had no choice but to do so.

For those interested – study the whole of this blog. You will be able to get a clear picture of Robert Burton and his organizations.

As DC said,
”It’s here for all to consider and anyone with a beating heart and the slightest inkling to touch the divine will see it for what it is. I certainly don’t have to label it.”

51. Opus 111 - November 24, 2009

DC wants to contrast current to ex FOF members by contrasting their approach to spirituality. You see, DC views ex-members through his FOF prism: ex-members are doomed, fallen angels destined to feed the moon. No wonder they are angry. Spirituality is no longer a concern to them. In contrast, current members are angels in the making, they are the meek, the few, in fact the only ones the gods have a care for.

What is this particular brand of spirituality, promoted by Burton? to quote Ames:

A religion like any other in that it uses fear or infatuation to bind the followers. A religion like any other that claims it is the only true one, that it has an exclusive pathway to salvation, that all other religions are false, that followers are singularly blessed, that to leave is damnation. A religion like any other that demands faith, credulity and childlike (and permanent) dependence. A religion like any other that necessitates intermediaries between the supplicant and God.

One could go on and on: a religion whose leader sees himself as the brightest light in the last 2000 years (since Christ), but allows himself to use his youngest followers as sex toys; a religion where your spiritual worth is proportional to your net worth or sex-appeal, depending on a complex formula that includes your age and gender as main parameters. Etc, etc…

Why not add testimonials from “awakened” ex-members to the Pathway to Presence website, with their personalized recommendation? Why not add a blog to the website, allowing current members (a modest fee by the line written would be appropriate) to sing the glory of their leader, the blessedness of their fate and the extasy of their situation? The allure would be more complete. Just a thought.

52. rock that boat - November 24, 2009

A WONDERFUL THANKSGIVING TO ALL OF YOU

Grace and Gratitude

Of the two, gratitude comes easier.
You can be thankful whenever
you are conscious of your treasures.

Grace, it seems, you have to wait for.
Grace has to come to you… it never happens
while you are thinking directly about it.

But it has come before and will come again,
in the little gaps in your thinking.

Watch those gaps between the thoughts, Krishnamurti taught.
That’s where the real stuff is.

A moment comes when you disappear into the crack between two thoughts, and the distance between what you are seeing and who you are no longer exist. There it is … becoming has become Being.

– Jim Ralston

53. WhaleRider - November 25, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

“A spirit world that can be and has been verified by hundreds of members.”

Hundreds of people verifabricated the existence of UFO’s, too.

Hallucinations can be quite convincing in a state of awe and wonder.

Yes, it is no wonder that the majority of people who have come into contact with the Fellowship of Friends AKA Pathway to Presence have “disconnected” as you say. They woke from the dream and left.

54. brucelevy - November 25, 2009

For the “Queen” (trapped in a man’s body).

55. nige - November 25, 2009

For Ames and WhaleRider…..

A strong peace comes upon me
And truth moves me to call
My inner world,
Both positive and negative,
Into being…..Nigel.

56. Yesri Baba - November 25, 2009

“Why do people continually talk about abuse of power when all evidence points to consent and there is no evidence that even minimally suggests coercion? False accusations are also a form fraud.”

Fuck you you fucking motherfucking fuck.

For anyone who may not have been following along the above statement is the horseshit that shameless, disingenuous moron puked out prompting an appropriate response.

If one were to do a little research I bet one would find that all of the listed slights followed similar puddles of vomit.

57. WhaleRider - November 25, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

There are two types of hallucinations, positive and negative, which has nothing to do with good or bad.

One can hallucinate something is there that isn’t, as in your process of verifabrication.

Or one can hallucinate something is not there that is, as in the process of denial.

Hallucinations can be visual, auditory, or tactile…or a combinaton of all three.

“Spirits” were first concieved by early humans to explain the unseen forces of nature.

58. dragon - November 25, 2009

Lorne Dawson

Cults, The Internet and Religion

My research evolved from cults to the Internet after the mass suicide of members of Heaven’s Gate in 1997. They made their living at that time by designing web pages. They also put their literature on the web as a way of recruiting new members. I started to look into the use of the Internet by new religious movements. There was public concern and fear that some new religious movements would “lure” young people away from the safety of their homes through the Internet. I wanted to know if that claim was true. My research showed that the fears were greatly exaggerated because successful recruiting requires a lot of face-to-face interaction.

Comprehending Cults
Lorne L Dawson, Comprehending Cults: The Sociology of New Religious Movements, Oxford University Press, 2nd Ed., 2006.

The book remains a really good overall introduction to key issues and literature. Lorne Dawson covers most of the key areas of what have been termed New Religious Movements (NRMs) and in well referenced chapters Dawson provides a largely impartial analysis of issued associated with NRM’s such as brainwashing and child abuse allegations, the alleged propensity to violence, and the relative demographics of NRMs and in more theoretical terms the approaches to the study of NRMs (mainly Berger and Stark and Bainbridge) and the relationship of modernity (and secularisation) to NRMS.

The trouble is there is no real clear line of demarcation between the cult and the sect, since the cult is identified in relation to the social context, what is a cult in one place, is a sect or denomination elsewhere:

http://www.cesnur.org/conferences/riga2000/chryssides.htm

59. Golden Veil - November 25, 2009

*

Dear Daily Cardiac,

After reading posts 41 through 56 (and especially 44 and 49-51), it
is clear to me that your re-posting of many of the derisive comments expressed in foul language directed to you in Part 85 was especially fruitful to this blog.

I must say that I, too, have been shocked at the language. One post in particular shocked me. At this point it has already been repeated a few times. My shock was at first because of the coarseness of the language, but then a bigger shock followed as I then realized the depth of pain and/or outrage that the crude exclamation must stem from. THAT is the point.

* * *

Lately I am finding that the terms “spiritual” and “spirituality” have less significance to me. They seem to affect me emotionally in a way similar to the words “religious” and “religion”.

* * *

If you want to look at the blog from a positive viewpoint, you
could consider that anyone who wanted to enroll in the ‘School’
after reading the blog must have a really strong ‘magnetic center’.
They will be well qualified, won’t they?

* * *

It must be real ignorance rather than an inconsiderate nature that leads you to continually assert to the readers here that the FACT that Robert Burton has sexually abused and misused his followers, the ‘students’, time and time again, is only “opinion”. The abused and misused relate their own personal experiences. The FACT is, the sexual abuse and misuse IS their experience. Also, these are not just a few isolated instances. There are many. And these people have ugly, disturbing memories of experiences they surely wish they had never had, and that they find impossible to forget. They want to contribute to the edification of ‘prospective students’ that might find this blog. They want to inform ‘prospective students’ of the dangers of being seduced by ‘Pathway to Presence’.

* * *

If anything be “Spiritual”, it must be the aim of the ex-‘students’ who
write the postings here. They are a like a lighthouse showing the ‘prospective student’ that the rocky shore is not the place to sail and especially not to put an anchor down.

* * *

“When one is pretending the entire body revolts”

[Anais Nin]

*

60. WhaleRider - November 25, 2009

I can assure you that I feel my motivations for being here are just as noble as you think yours are.

I am going to argue that in fact the co-dependent, guru-disciple type of relationship that you are promoting here is also “part of the lower realm” or shall we say part of the primal, child-like realm of us rather than the “higher realm” of secondary, more developed, and mature realm of our psyche.

And yes, absolutely, that “is exactly what must be transcended if spiritual truth ((ABOUT OURSELVES)) is to be known” which fosters our growth toward spiritual independence and self-responsibility.

That is why your fear laced posts illicit such primal, revolting responses from others…all the references to crap, shit, masturbation, and vomit.

Over the course of many years as humans developed an understanding of the forces of nature, “spirits” came to represent the unseen, primal forces of our human nature and unconscious mind.

What if you could incorporate all those angels hovering above the dinner table as real parts of you that have an interest in your development?

Then you wouldn’t have to hitch your wagon to a sexual predator.

The soul craves freedom.

61. rock that boat - November 25, 2009

THE LEGEND OF THE UNICORN

The legend of the unicorn says that it is attracted to virgins; indeed, virgins are its only known weakness.
Before you despair, it might be interesting to take this bit about virgins as an image of what goes on in the mind.
The virginal mind is innocent in the positive sense.
The innocent mind is not thinking about itself and what it can get. It isn’t thinking the usual thoughts such as, “How do I look as unicorn bait?” “No unicorn could ever be interested in me.” “I’ll be famous if I catch a unicorn.” or “How do I construct the best unicorn catching machine?”

Instead, the innocent mind is just hanging out, living its life. It attracts the unicorn because it is like the unicorn, who is also just hanging out, living its life. The innocent mind is the meditation mind, the mind before the world was built and populated with stories about what to think and do. It is sometimes called beginner’s mind. It exists before enlightenment and before theology and its argument with human desire. The innocent mind is not spending all its time scheming to get others to do what it wants and policing its own impulses. It’s open to something new, something that it hasn’t thought of. It’s the person at the party who doesn’t network or try to impress you.

In the legend, the unicorn has another property: its horn stops the action of poisons. This image refers not just to the openness of the meditation mind but also to the way it actively undermines unhappiness and delusion.

When you are unhappy, you look for a remedy that is in the range of what you already know. Yet what you already know might be precisely what is obscuring your vision of the unicorn. There is a Hindu story about a person who prayed to see Krishna. She meditated hard and it so happened that the blue god was meandering along the woodland path and noticed her. He bent over and tapped her on the shoulder. She did not open her eyes. “Please don’t distract me,” she said, “I am meditating with a sacred goal in mind.” “Oh, Ok then,” thought Krishna, “I wouldn’t want to interfere with that,” and wandered on down the path.

John Tarrant

62. nige - November 25, 2009

61 rock that boat

Addendum…..

Read the poem ‘Beginners’ on PAGE 44 of ‘Walt Whitman, Complete Poems’ (Penguin Classics)…..Nigel.

63. nige - November 25, 2009

To WhaleRider…..

“Working through (Durcharbeit), the most important part of any analysis, is essentially an education in the process of assuming a tragic relationship to oneself by accepting the suffering that self-knowledge entails. Rather than seeking a magical solution to depression, one must sustain it as that melancholy that Keats called “the wakeful anguish of the soul.” Becoming responsible for oneself depends on a single circumstance: the concrete and bitter immersion in the particulars of one’s life in a recognition of one’s responsibility as cause. No satanic agency produced one’s condition and no messianic agency will come to blow it away. One must uncover those things in oneself that have shaped the self-lacerating history of one’s heart. There is only one source of inner strength, and the way to it is full acceptance of the suffering that is our deepest attunement to ourselves. Authentic self-analysis is based on the recognition that there is no deliverance from desire and inner conflict.”
(“Bible Says”, page 279)

64. nige - November 25, 2009

Again, for WhaleRider…..

Happy Thanksgiving…..Nigel.

“Dibs had had his dark moments and had lived for a while in the shadows of life. But he had had the opportunity to move out of those dark moments and discover for himself that he could cope with the shadows and sunshine in his life.

Perhaps there is more beauty and understanding in life when the glaring sunlight is softened by the patterns of shadows. Perhaps there is more depth in a relationship that has weathered some storms. EXPERIENCE THAT NEVER DISAPPOINTS OR SADDENS OR STIRS UP FEELINGS IS A BLAND EXPERIENCE WITH LITTLE CHALLENGE OR VARIATION IN COLOUR. Perhaps when we experience confidence and faith and hope that we see materialize before our eyes this builds up within us a feeling of inner strength, courage and security.

We are all personalities that grow and develop AS A RESULT OF ALL OUR EXPERIENCES, RELATIONSHIPS, THOUGHTS, AND EMOTIONS. We are the sum total of all the parts that go into THE MAKING OF A LIFE.”

(This is the true story of a little boy named Dibs…..

He would not talk. He would not play. Judged mentally defective, he was oblivious both to other children and to his teacher; in reality he was a brilliant, lonely child trapped in a prison of fear and rage, a prison from which only he could release himself. And through psychotherapy and love, he did.)

65. Daily Cardiac - November 25, 2009

ton – 44:

“come on dc, do your homework and go look in a mirror before you project your distortions and bullshit onto others…. do you really think you are stating anything other than your opinions here? are you so delusional?!”

I’m all for calling opinion what it is, both yours and mine. I don’t have a problem calling my contributions opinion. If we calibrate all words here to what they are – opinion – we can shed some light on just what can be known from what cannot be known; and there is a lot that cannot be known or proved in a forum such as this one.

But you can certainly state your truth and I can state mine and then let the words reverberate on the basis of their own substance or lack or substance for anyone with an open mind looking in who might be concerned with matters of the spirit..

The bottom line for me is that spiritual truths can be discussed but not proved with any certainty to any source outside of oneself. When an individual is residing in a spiritual realm, that is, no longer on the earth, they will know many things they cannot know here. But many men cannot readily accept this limitation of the human condition.

66. nige - November 25, 2009

65 Daily Cardiac

“The bottom line for me is that spiritual truths can be discussed but not proved with any certainty to any source outside of oneself. When an individual is residing in a spiritual realm, that is, no longer on the earth, they will know many things they cannot know here. But many men cannot readily accept this limitation of the human condition.”

This is just the kind of thinking that allows cult leaders to insist on, and obtain, formatory and non-discriminating attitudes that lead to no-one in that cult actually spiritually awakening. I paid for my time in the Fellowship of Friends (and, may I say it, living out the quotes from Burton that he has probably now forgotten) – funny how I got a surname like Price – and awakened, in my first wave of the process on All Hallows’ Eve 1990, when I was 33 years of age. The spiritual realms have made their presence felt in my life many times since then (I am an expert in altered states of consciousness, whereas you, Daily Cardiac are an expert in dead-end, actual non-thinking) and I firmly believe that this ‘human condition’ or state of being is merely a reflection of spirtual realms, if we are open to ‘the signs’ (I can send you ‘new things’ [Isiah 42], if you are at all interested in a true higher state). I await your, probably, boring reply…..Nigel.

67. Dennis Larson - November 26, 2009

I would like to offer one possible reason for the anger that many of us feel toward RB.

• Essence is innocent, vulnerable, and who we are at our deepest level.
• Personality is learned thoughts and behaviors that serve to protect essence from destabilizing outside influences.
• Mature adults protect the essence of children so that they can blossom forth in their own unique way, without having to develop a thick shell of protective personality.
• We learn to trust our parents or anyone else who will help protect our essence, in order that we can relax into and enjoy that part of ourselves.
• We all develop some personality, as protection, and we recognize that when personality is manifesting it prevents us from being in essence. We prefer the relaxed and nourishing times in essence.
• One of the things we were hoping to find in a school was a situation were we could be safely in essence.
• We joined the FOF and transferred our trust of mature protective adults onto RB.
• We allowed our personality to be humiliated because we understood that this allowed us to be more in essence. Gurdjieff was apparently a master at humiliating personality without destabilizing essence, with his many manifestations, like his “toast to the idiots.”
• In that more vulnerable child like state, without the protection or our personality, our essences were destabilized by the manifestations of RB’s mental illness and his lack of conscience.
• Some of our anger is righteous indignation toward a trusted adult injuring our childlike essence. (To me it feels similar to how I might feel if someone abused my child, in this case my inner essential child. And destabilizing a person’s sexuality feels similar to someone sexually abusing my daughter. And the most abusive act possible would be a father sexually assaulting his child.)
• No wonder we feel angry.

68. WhaleRider - November 26, 2009

Thanks for your posts, Nigel, and the well wishes.

69. Ill Never Tell - November 26, 2009

51. Opus 111:
‘your spiritual worth is proportional to your net worth or sex-appeal, depending on a complex formula that includes your age and gender as main parameters. Etc, etc. . .’

Forgot to mention, explicitly: your spiritual worth is proportional to the size of your penis. And, if you don’t have one, you cannot evolve beyond your 8th of nine lifetimes (nineth lifetime being the one where you can graduate from a ‘pee on’ to a ‘peed upon.’

70. Bares Reposting - November 26, 2009

65. Daily Cardiac:
‘When an individual is residing in a spiritual realm, that is, no longer on the earth, they will know many things they cannot know here. But many men cannot readily accept this limitation of the human condition.’

And, you know this because:
1) You have been told this.
2) You believe this.
3) You read this somewhere.
4) This is someone else’s experience.
5) This is your personal experience.
6) Some of the above.
7) All of the above.
8) None of the above.
9) I don’t know.

Which ones apply?

71. WhaleRider - November 26, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

I get it now.

As long as co-dependent people like you hold onto and promote your superstitious and verifabricated beliefs, your personal “opinions” as you call them, then the dysfunctional Fellowship of Friends aka Pathway to Presence can be loosely defined as a religion, Big Daddy Burton gets his narcissistic objects legally, efficiently, and mechanically conveyed to him…and you get to keep your job.

Obviously, you have no choice; you are too far in.

Although you imagine otherwise, leaving the cult is not really an option for you. Am I right?

Just remember, before you point the finger at us, the fear of the unknown you employ to indoctrinate people into your spiritualist cult mentality is of the same base, lower self, primary process that you accuse us of being lost in.

Anger, when used appropriately in a positive way, is quite motivating.

This is why it is so important to know thyself…and love thyself, too….thy entire self.

Again I ask you…what if those invisible angels hovering above the dinner table were actually a very real part of you interested in your development?

What are the chances you could work with that?

72. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 26, 2009

67. Dennis Larson:
Nice overview, Dennis, thanks. And, a Happy Thanksgiving to you, your near and dear, and to all.

73. Daily Cardiac - November 26, 2009

Golden Veil – 59:

“It must be real ignorance rather than an inconsiderate nature that leads you to continually assert to the readers here that the FACT that Robert Burton has sexually abused and misused his followers, the ’students’, time and time again, is only “opinion”.”

It is neither ignorance nor lack of consideration. As I see it it is genuinely opinion. Here is why. You don’t know the motivations of RB for being intimate with any of the ones he is intimate with. You can’t say for sure if it is an aid or hindrance to the individual’s spiritual growth.

On hearing about someone’s personal account or a second hand version of an encounter you will have an opinion about it, as it is natural for men to have opinions about everything.

And you also didn’t know the motivations of any of his partners at the time of the encounter, nor were you behind closed doors to witness anything. Until you know all that; the motivations especially, which you are unlikely to ever know, it will remain an uncertainty to you, even though you may call it a certainty.

Definition of Opinion – “a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.” All civilized countries, with regard to crimes or legalities, have rejected the notion that actions can be judged or evaluated solely on the basis of appearance.

The same goes for testimony alone, because people are rarely truthful when they have a vested interest in an outcome. There is a reason for customs like taking an oath in court, not that it prevents lying, but the implication of a preponderance to lie in that setting are there.

It takes more than accounts to determine truth.

There is an interesting paradox afoot on the blog. Ex members continually critique RB/ FoF outside of a spiritual context on the basis of man’s laws or common morality yet they actually ignore the definition of those same laws instituted by men and contrive their own rendition of what constitutes sexual abuse or abuse of power (actually there is no measurable determining factor for what determines abuse of power in most private groups, family circles, especially in a spiritual teacher /aspirant relationship.

The definition by law of sexual abuse is precise. Abuse and persuasion are not the same. It is not against any law to propose that someone have sex with you (unless that someone is a minor). It is not against any law, man made or otherwise, to persuade someone to have sex (unless that someone is a minor) It is not against any law to convince someone to have sex with you.

At the same time people have different moral codes and to some consensual sex between a spiritual teacher and student is considered wrong under any circumstances.That would represent an opinion, not a truth.

If the kind of abuses documented on the blog (especially the frequency often cited) had actually occurred there would have been charges or convictions long before 40 years had transpired.There are laws of probability being ignored here which seriously tax the faculties of reason for any open minded individual.

Here is the difficult part – It’s one thing to judge an ordinary man by appearance, there are pitfalls to that also but it’s nearly impossible to judge an enlightened being by appearance because they are under less mechanical laws than others. They do not act according to some personal code of conduct but follow a universal spiritual code – that’s one of the conditions that determines whether they are enlightened or not. They have real choices whereas others react in predictable ways.

And it hasn’t been determined what RB is, charlatan or enlightened being. A minuscule percent of the whole of ex members, who also happen to visit this blog, say that he is a charlatan. Most of those still in the FoF would more than likely say enlightened being. It has not been determined which one he is, regardless of how fervently anyone proclaims otherwise. It simply has not been determined in any real sense.

There undoubtedly are those who know Robert Burton, know him for what he is, but it has not been established whether that is more likely to be you or I.

“Lately I am finding that the terms “spiritual” and “spirituality” have less significance to me. They seem to affect me emotionally in a way similar to the words “religious” and “religion”.”

What term would you use to describe “of the spirit?” What would you call an entity composed of matter too rarefied to distinguish through our senses, but one that can nevertheless be experienced or known?

74. Yesri Baba - November 26, 2009

“You don’t know the motivations of RB for being intimate with any of the ones he is intimate with.”

True, but if I we’re to take a wild guess it would be to suck fresh cock and get fucked up the ass. But hey, I’m just on the earth.

75. Yesri Baba - November 26, 2009

” What would you call an entity composed of matter too rarefied to distinguish through our senses, but one that can nevertheless be experienced or known?”

I dunno, is this a quiz?

a spook?

76. ton - November 26, 2009

DC 73
“What term would you use to describe “of the spirit?” What would you call an entity composed of matter too rarefied to distinguish through our senses, but one that can nevertheless be experienced or known?”

how about calling it YOUR IMAGINATION…. that’s your “bad lower self” dc…

dc’s agenda here is all too obvious, it’s about reducing the blog to a pissing contest, a game of ‘he said, she said’ in which his own opinion might be passed off as valid. in his own mind it is, it’s the “truth” he lives with. in his mind he wins this little game he’s playing if he can arrange the wording and manipulate truth so that it “resonates” in such a way as to persuade others to accept his views. as it is said “he has a right to his opinions” but in my opinion, the real “value” of his views as they’re expressed here lie solely in the fact that they provide an example of and insight into the mentality of a fof cultist.

the agenda of the cultist is to reduce the testimony of so many who have been damaged by the machinations of robert burton, to “mere” opinion and “hearsay” — so now dc has the blog right where he had hoped, he’s reduced page after page of testimony to “mere opinion” which can be all too easily contradicted and nullified by an opposing opinion which, as an opinion, is seemingly just as valid as any other. but the fact is this: the blog is a document that represents the destruction that is wrought upon the lives of individuals who have placed their trust in a self-proclaimed spiritual guide and “teacher” — only to have that trust violated.

in the world of norms and even relatively “moral” folks, the role of a teacher implies trust of the teacher on the part of the student… as a fiduciary a teacher is entrusted to act on behalf of the student but this sexual predator violates trust at every turn and in fact he depends upon the relationship of trusting student and his role as authority figure in order to lure his prey…. dc rationalizes this behavior on the part of his “teacher” by inferring that it is the action of “an enlightened being.” DC goes on to speculate and imagine what it means to be “an enlighted being” — he seems to think that his “teacher” has choices, he says: “They have real choices whereas others react in predictable ways.” i disagree… i think robert burton is totally predicatable, and he has NO CHOICE because he’s completely controlled by his compulsions, satyriasis and addiction… he has no choice, he is controlled by his compulsions.

anytime trust is manipulated and violated, as it has been so many times by robert burton, it destroys a little part of what is true and good in the world… but someone like dc excuses the violation of trust and even condones and supports this behavior, he holds it up as an example of a “higher” morality. it’s up to the readers of the blog to do their homework, read the back story contained in these pages, and form their own judgments about an opinion of the situation as expressed by the likes of a “DC” — imo it’s beyond horseshit, it’s complicity and criminal….

67
thank you for your insights dennis:

• Some of our anger is righteous indignation toward a trusted adult injuring our childlike essence. (To me it feels similar to how I might feel if someone abused my child, in this case my inner essential child. And destabilizing a person’s sexuality feels similar to someone sexually abusing my daughter. And the most abusive act possible would be a father sexually assaulting his child.)

this is an understanding that brain-washing eliminates or at least attempts to reduce…. wake up, wake up…

77. ton - November 26, 2009

73
dc’s argument against the fact of burton’s sexual abuse is based on uncertainty… and it’s really his own uncertainty about the situation which he attempts to inject into the conversation and into others. as a mouthpiece for and defender of burton, dc tries to play on doubt and uncertainty as he attempts again and again to deflect and obfuscate the obvious with his version of “truth.” he implies that the accounts here of burton’s abuses are fabrications, he imagines there is some “vested interest” behind what he thinks of as lies about burton’s behavior, he says, and of course he believes that “people are rarely truthful” which is a view that comes of living in a cult wherein the coin of the realm is based on lies, deceit, self-deception, and fairy tales.

personally i do not doubt what the con is all about, you can dress it up in all the finery and concerts and expensive dinners and platitudes about “spiritual growth” you want to, but i’m not fooled.

there is an interesting paradox “afoot” alright but it’s in dc’s own mind…. dc IMAGINES that he is a sort of “made mant” through his association or some proximal involvement with what he IMAGINES to be an “enlightened being.” as a “made man” he IMAGINES that he is closer to “enlightenment” himself.

just how far from reality / “enlightement” can he get? this is through his own imagination and co-creation of the situation… he holds up this piece of human shit as an example of an “enlightened being” whom he believes is beyond the understanding of “ordinary man” with their little earth-bound “mechanical” laws… yet at the same time dc uses those same “mechanical” and common laws that govern “ordinary men” as some sort of “proof” that this so called “enlightened being” has done nothing wrong, it seems that because burton has not landed in prison it exonerates him and proves his “innocence.”

it’s very convenient for dc and burton that there is “no measurable determining factor” for abuse of power, but in my mind that does not make the abuse right or exonerate the abuser. but hey that’s just me, an “ordinary man.” DC, do you reckon that you have a functioning conscience? and if so, do you listen to and follow it? this is a rhetorical question of course, because it is obvious that your individuality and your own personal conscience has been replaced by cult-memes and programming that you are not even aware of.

here’s another classic line of horseshit from dc:

“They do not act according to some personal code of conduct but follow a universal spiritual code – that’s one of the conditions that determines whether they are enlightened or not.”

what is this bullshit about “universal spiritual code” — dc would you define exactly what that is for us?

regarding typical cult-think, this line of bullshit says it all… it’s more circular reasoning, another circular argument that dc cannot recognize… and to boot, the meme it implants says that not having a “personal code of conduct” excuses all transgressions…. to me that is a definition of a sociopath…. not having a personal code of conduct implies (to me) that this “enlightened being” has no functioning conscience… something dc identifies with. thanks dc, you hit the nail on the head… again.

78. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 26, 2009

73. Daily Cardiac:
‘You don’t know the motivations of RB for being intimate with any of the ones he is intimate with. You can’t say for sure if it is an aid or hindrance to the individual’s spiritual growth.’

Guess what, DC, NEITHER DO YOU ‘know the motivations of RB.’ So, your supposition of anything in relation to his being an enlightened being are baseless and without the slightest degree of foundation. But you can know the tree by the fruit that it bears. And, if you are the fruit that the tree, Fellowship of Friends (a.k.a. Pathway to Presence), bears, then, Res Ipsa Loquitur (It speaks for itself.)

79. veramente - November 26, 2009

73 DC
Thick as a brick

80. sallymcnally - November 26, 2009

#73: To me these words and ideas of DC’s are a great example of what has been created after years of being in the Fellowship. As mentioned above by Veramente, the covering is thick and impenetrable. I hope this person can blast their way out some day.

81. WhaleRider - November 26, 2009

“Thickness” = defense mechanisms.

“…defense mechanisms are unconscious psychological strategies brought into play by various entities to cope with reality and to maintain self-image. Healthy persons normally use different defences throughout life.

An ego defence mechanism becomes pathological only when its persistent use leads to maladaptive behavior such that the physical and/or mental health of the individual is adversely affected.

These include:

Fantasy: Tendency to retreat into fantasy in order to resolve inner and outer conflicts. ((Being part of “real school” or with an “angel” or “enlightened being” is such a fantasy))

Projection: Projection is a primitive form of paranoia. Projection also reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the undesirable impulses or desires without becoming consciously aware of them; attributing one’s own unacknowledged unacceptable/unwanted thoughts and emotions to another; includes severe prejudice, severe jealousy, hyper vigilance to external danger, and “injustice collecting”. It is shifting one’s unacceptable thoughts, feelings and impulses within oneself onto someone else, such that those same thoughts, feelings, beliefs and motivations are perceived as being possessed by the other. ((Cult members project their own unconsciousnees of “sleep” onto “life” people))

Somatization: The transformation of negative feelings towards others into negative feelings toward self, pain, illness, and anxiety. ((This is a tendency in co-dependency))

Passive aggression: Aggression towards others expressed indirectly or passively. ((Crazy exercisies like not being able to show your teeth when you smile are examples of passive agression))

Acting out: Direct expression of an unconscious wish or impulse in action, without conscious awareness of the emotion that drives that expressive behavior. ((Burton acts out when he forces dissenters out of his cult as he forces out his own doubt and projects it onto others))

Idealization: Unconsciously choosing to perceive another individual as having more positive qualities than he or she may actually have. ((A favorite of Daily Cardiac’s. He idealizes Burton))

Displacement: Defense mechanism that shifts sexual or aggressive impulses to a more acceptable or less threatening target; redirecting emotion to a safer outlet; separation of emotion from its real object and redirection of the intense emotion toward someone or something that is less offensive or threatening in order to avoid dealing directly with what is frightening or threatening. For example, a mother may yell at her child because she is angry with her husband. ((This is why Daily Cardiac posts…displacing his agressive and sexual impulses here.))

Dissociation: Temporary drastic modification of one’s personal identity or character to avoid emotional distress; separation or postponement of a feeling that normally would accompany a situation or thought. ((This is a requirement of cult membership))

Isolation: Separation of feelings from ideas and events, for example, describing a murder with graphic details with no emotional response. ((Notice how Daily Cardiac claims he has little or no emotional response to the words spirit or spirituality. Burton is profoundly isolated from the consequences of his sexual addiction))

Intellectualization: A form of isolation; concentrating on the intellectual components of a situation so as to distance oneself from the associated anxiety-provoking emotions; separation of emotion from ideas; thinking about wishes in formal, affectively bland terms and not acting on them; avoiding unacceptable emotions by focusing on the intellectual aspects (e.g. Isolation, Rationalization, Ritual, Undoing, Compensation, Magical thinking). ((OMG, this forms the basis of FOF cult indoctrination))

Reaction Formation: Converting unconscious wishes or impulses that are perceived to be dangerous into their opposites; behavior that is completely the opposite of what one really wants or feels; taking the opposite belief because the true belief causes anxiety. This defense can work effectively for coping in the short term, but will eventually break down. ((This is the defense mechanism that Burton uses to exploit and manipulate his heterosexual male folllowers into performing gay sex with him))

Repression: Process of pulling thoughts into the unconscious and preventing painful or dangerous thoughts from entering consciousness; seemingly unexplainable naivety, memory lapse or lack of awareness of one’s own situation and condition; the emotion is conscious, but the idea behind it is absent. ((the attempt to “be present” all the time is a repressive act which enables followers to stay in the FOF contrary to their best interest, racking up huge debt))

Regression: Temporary reversion of the ego to an earlier stage of development rather than handling unacceptable impulses in a more adult way. ((This what is termed in the cult…being in essence, allowing one to be manipulated like a child))

Rationalization: Where a person convinces him or herself that no wrong was done and that all is or was all right through faulty and false reasoning. An indicator of this defense mechanism can be seen socially as the formulation of convenient excuses.” ((The bulk of Daily Caridac’s posts are rationalizations))

~From Wikipedia

ton:
“…just how far from reality / “enlightement” can he get?”

That one made me laugh out loud.

82. brucelevy - November 26, 2009

73. Daily Cardiac

Until you have experienced RB’s dick in your mouth or up your ass, along with all the ephemeral bull shit he uses to persuade, you have nothing of value to say on the subject, and it’s fucking offensive that you even try. Yet you spew your atrocious shit just like RB. Eat shit and die.

83. James Mclemore - November 26, 2009

“what is this bullshit about “universal spiritual code” — dc would you define exactly what that is for us?”

Yes ton, that same line got me also. In spite of how sad the whole of his/her post was, I actually laughed out loud when I got to that. In fact that whole paragraph sounded like something coming from a land of fairy tales and make believe.
If I thought he had any inquistiveness left in him, I was going to suggest he try and trace back in his mind where that whole little conglomeration of ideas came from, with its unspoken references to mystical and deep understandings; though he did warn us it would be “difficult”. But wow, that “universal spiritual code” was just a gem.

Really DC, if you could actually hear what this stuff sounds like, I would think you would be embarrassed at having said it. It sounds like something that might have come from a Marvel comic book.

84. ton - November 26, 2009

Whalerider, here’s one to add to the list:

“Codependent, enabler, follower, covert narcissist, inverted narcissist, co-narcissist…

The terms ‘codependent’, ‘enabler’, ‘follower’, ‘covert narcissist’ ‘inverted narcissist’ and co-narcissistRef are used interchangeably in respect of people who are emotionally dependent on narcissists. Narcissists surround themselves with codependents etc as they tend to work beyond healthy (and sometimes ethical) limits to do whatever the narcissist needs. Narcissists crave power and codependents etc crave security, so they are drawn to one another.

Codependency is a condition that affects a large percentage of the adult population. Individual characteristics vary in degree from individual to individual. Codependent patterns of behavior include, among others:
• Avoiding decision making and confrontation
• External referencing (always checking outside oneself before making choices)
• Subordinating one’s needs to those of the person with whom one is involved [the narcissist]
• Perfectionism
• Over-controlling
• Manipulation
• Lack of trust
• Lying

Often, the same person displays both narcissistic and codependency (co-narcissistic) behaviors, depending on circumstances. Both narcissists and codependents tend to assume that in any interpersonal interaction one person is narcissistic and the other codependent, and often can play either part.  

http://www.winning-teams.com/definitions.html

85. rock that boat - November 26, 2009

Happy Thanksgiving fellow travelers

The inward voyage and the outer both have an heroic aspect.
Outer voyages make new connections by which human beings achieve many ends -adventure, trade, conquest and love.

The inner voyage also makes new connections: it plunges us into an initiatory space, the way young boys were once thrust into the forecastle of a sailing ship; then, as the world we have known disappears, we are rocked and whirled around until the ship anchors once more in a harbor.

We step ashore in a land that is not externally new but that our eyes, being changed, see in its primeval freshness.

The interior voyage overcomes loneliness by offering us a place in the universe, where we can know ourselves in the midst of all changes. If we respect the inner life, we find that it is also possible to reverse the whole relationship between the inner and outer, beneath and above, and make the inner life come first,
as a garden that is tended for the tending’s own sake.

To cultivate, to know, to love this vast inscape is the only way to be free in any circumstances, the only way to mend the poverty of wasted years.
We explore the interior realm because it is what we humans are for
– consciousness, the marvelous voyage.

-John Tarrant

86. arthur - November 27, 2009

It sounds from a distance that Robert Burton is a Gobbler.

He Gobbles his young turkeys to the consternation of the hens while spewing gobbledlygook to the rest of his brood.

I follow all the traditions. I had a Turkey Sandwich today without the gobbledlygook.

87. nige - November 27, 2009

Daily Cardiac, please read…..

“To cultivate, to know, to love this vast inscape is the only way to be free in any circumstances, the only way to mend the poverty of wasted years.
We explore the interior realm because it is what we humans are for
– consciousness, the marvelous voyage.”

In other words, consciousness, and its pursuit, are not the sole domain of your, or anyone else’s cult…..Nigel.

88. Daily Cardiac - November 27, 2009

Ames Gilbert – 49:

“Daily Cardiac,
You are setting up a false argument when you ask readers to compare the collected comments of your detractors you’ve collected together to the blandishments of the FoF website. First, I don’t recall any of those who made comments setting themselves up as objective spiritual authorities or even ‘bearers of spiritual truth’; the FoF/PTP and Burton (and you yourself) clearly do.”

I disagree that my comments represent a “false argument.” But to address you first point about ex members “setting themselves up as objective spiritual authorities” if you read the comments I posted you will arrive at the conclusion that those individuals think they know much more than I’ve ever claimed to know. They think they know their own reality entirely plus my reality better than I know it. That’s thinking they know a lot. In fact their words suggest that they are “all-knowing.”

I start out by giving everyone the benefit of the doubt that on some level they are here precisely because they are seeking spiritual truth; that’s what they were looking for when they joined the FoF I presume, and since that didn’t work out for them I also presume they are still on the journey to find it. I start with that premise and try to move from there to a place that reveals those who are actually seeking spiritual truth from those who are engaging in something less than a sincere search. One of the reasons I highlighted those complete postings was because, collectively, they expose in crystal clear terms the degree of evasiveness at work on this blog when people are asked to back up their opinions with reason.

In any event ex members are using words to define who they are, to represent their position, so I am only contrasting those words with the words of the official FoF site. What could be more fair than that?The words I quoted are the ones ex members chose to go on record with in response to my comments. They could have said many things but they chose to say what they did. They could have chosen to actually address an issue I introduced, explain a contradiction I pointed out, but they preferred to answer in the manner they did. What could be more fair than to contrast that with what the FoF has chosen to present?

“Sure, some of the comments you have collected are reactive and probably don’t advance the conversation very much, but IMO you don’t contribute much yourself, whatever your claims to the contrary.”

I’m glad you qualified this statement by saying this is your opinion. It’s my opinion that I am one of the only voices who repeatedly has tried to elevate the comments to the level of a basic discussion and you can see by the quotes how futile that attempt has been.

“You mention the reference to the PTP site being “alluring”, and claim that any open seeker will find it irresistible. You forget that Silentpurr, like the rest of us who have left, was allured by the claims of the Fellowship of Friends, and after spending considerable time, effort, and money, found no substance behind the allure. There was a lure, but we found it was ‘bait and switch’.”

You / Silentpurr have found this to be the case, but others, hundreds of others, have found the opposite to be the case; that there is much substance behind the allure. Now, having said that, if you can see what I’m getting at then we would be standing on the threshold of a real discussion, if you are interested in that. I see many flaws, gaps and contradictions in the conclusions you arrive at regarding the FoF/RB.

A discussion ensues when someone representing one position acknowledges the position of another, however much that position opposes his or her own views and yields to that person so their position can be expounded on. Then vice versa. Then the results of the chronicling of thoughts, reasonings, logic, of both sides, are there for posterity, for anyone to absorb and judge the merit of or lack of merit of. The quotes I posted from ex members represent all that a true discussion does not consist of.

Now, I ask you why is it that the very topics ex members offer as proof of FoF fraud and the like are not actually ever discussed using any semblance of reason? All ex members do is simply assert that something is true or correct because they say so and then when someone like myself challenges the assertions by pointing out pertinent exceptions or contradictions or lack of sound reasoning they can only write back with insults or more of the same assertions, never actually entering into a valid discussion of the issue. You wrote back on a variety of subjects but you did not touch any of the central issues I pointed out in the last posting and you probably are not aware of it.

Here is one central issue I introduced: It seems to me that a critique of any organization claiming to be a spiritual entity cannot be valid if the critics do not believe in a deity, or do not make mention of or account for a sprit world composed of higher beings who govern mankind and monitor our every movement. How would such a critique be valid without making mention of the existence of such a deity? The critique would be entirely out of context and thereby wholly off the mark. This fact deserves your attention.

“The bait was the Fourth Way, and we were switched to the Second Way, a religion based on the worship of Burton and his collection of conveniently invisible helpers, the theoretical 44 astral bodies of supposedly ‘conscious’ beings.”

First of all, Spirits are invisible; that’s not a “convenience” contrived by anyone connected to the FoF. This statement also shows some of the misconceptions ex members have who without any self questioning posit them into the column of Truth. There was no bait and switch. The FoF was founded upon principles, practices, collated by G & O, who called their collective system “The Fourth Way.”

That name is merely a label. The label is not the garment. The esoteric teachings have not ever changed or deviated from the same source (Influence C) from day one. Objective Truth by its very nature cannot be the Second Way, or Religion, but to distinguish one from the other someone needs to be looking for the higher of the two. If one is not really looking for Objective Truth it could very easily look like falsehood when encountered. Finding spiritual truth is a slippery slope.

“A religion like any other in that it uses fear or infatuation to bind the followers.”

As an organization the FoF is fairly difficult to join and very easy to leave. One has to pay money in advance to join and one only has to stop paying money to leave. So I don’t know the binding you speak of. I have not been in fear for even one hour since I joined. Infatuation usually does not last for 39 years (and counting, for some individuals). If it does it is not infatuation.

“A religion like any other that claims it is the only true one, that it has an exclusive pathway to salvation, that all other religions are false, that followers are singularly blessed, that to leave is damnation.”

What are you saying, that there is no true way? Truth be told there is one true way and many false ways, and the ones who look the hardest for it are the ones to find the true way. The FoF claims it’s place as a true esoteric school of awakening, in the tradition of similar schools from past ages. It claims nothing more, nothing less.

“A religion like any other that demands faith, credulity and childlike (and permanent) dependence. A religion like any other that necessitates intermediaries between the supplicant and God.”

Faith is necessary in the spiritual quest, not blind faith, but faith based on what is understood in the reality of the moment. The spiritual child starts from dependence and ends in liberation, just like the physical child. Intermediaries are needed for part of the journey. The concept of a guide is understood by all. At some point along the way the guided become the guides. Teachers are spiritual guides. This is not a Burtonism, but a Spiritualism. Christ was that for the Apostles, Buddha for his disciples, and on and on.

“You advocate for the Pathways to Presence website. Is it because it is so pretty? Is the language so refined? Sure it’s pretty; the Fellowship of Friends has recruited some talented designers and writers in its time. We are here to tell readers that the prettiness hides something awful, that behind the facade there is rottenness, lies and corruption. That Burton is a charlatan and a liar, and has been from the start.”

Again all I can start with is that there are many others who disagree with your words. What does that mean for you that many others disagree? Do you think you are more correct than they? If so how did you arrive at that conclusion? All you can reasonably say is that the FoF was not for you and you alleviated the problem by departing. You cannot know anything about my reality; you can only assume to know. And why would you assume to know someone else’s reality?

Are the testimonies of 20 or 30 ex members who have been regularly posting here for the last year or so, or the 150/200 or so who have posted sporadically over the last 2.5 years, enough to automatically cancel out the 1600 who presently support and value the FoF? Show me where/how that is so? Or else reason it out to me more convincingly than by saying “it is true because I say so” or “it happened like this because several known or anonymous posters say it did.” I say it is not so. We have a stale mate. How do we go beyond this impasse?

“Daily Cardiac, ask yourself why you defend the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Earl Burton. If you have verified that he is a ‘conscious teacher’, and that agents of the ‘spirit world’ exist and are helping you and other co–dependents, then that knowledge should be unassailable. Ditto the ‘hundreds of members’ who you claim have also verified this stuff.”

I’m not defending my position any more than you are defending yours. If you could see that it would represent a breakthrough that would find you on the threshold of a real discussion.
Also, the knowledge of what the FoF is is unassailable. One only has to be open to it to see that.

“Why should ‘C-Influence’, as you conceive it, need a bunch of little helpers like you anyway?”

They do not need me to defend their works. They allow me to write here as they allow you to.

“You attract comments from exasperated readers who show their exasperation openly.”

Why are they exasperated? If they were living in truth they would not be exasperated. Truth does not exasperate, truth calms. Falsehood is what exasperates. All crimes take place from a false place, a false position by exasperated individuals. How do you reconcile this seeming contradiction? This qualifies as an issue to be looked into. Dennis Larson gave his reason for this dichotomy and that is his offering. I have another viewpoint which sees that explanation as a thinly veiled justification. Any false action can be justified as being appropriate, but it cannot be made appropriate. Those looking for truth will see it for what it is. But at least he offered his reasoning. That’s all that’s possible on a forum of this kind – both viewpoints are out there for consumption.

“You concentrate on the language but not the message. What is the message for you, Daily Cardiac, and can you learn to recognize and value it?”

I have made the verifications necessary for me to value as true what I do value. The words of ex members have no sway over me. If any words here were able to sway me it would only mean I hadn’t really verified anything but just thought I had. Or it may mean I forgot the verifications. Objective truths do not change from day to day or year to year. They just are. If someone has verified a teacher is enlightened and that teacher manifests in a way the student does not understand there are several options available than to throw out the verification. The reasons a spiritual teacher would act in ways incomprehensible to a student are many, too many to go into here. But it all starts with looking for truth, finding truth and recognizing it when one finds it. If you’re like WhaleRider and don’t believe in the process of verification then what I’m reasoning now won’t mean a thing to you.

As I said the gaps, the degree of improbabilities, the contradictions, in the information generated by ex members is substantial to say the least. All you really have is a series of unsubstantiated claims of abuse by a small group of mostly anonymous individuals. Coupled with that you have the same individuals repeating these claims over and over embellishing them more and more with each repetition. (By the way, that’s a sure fire way of desensitizing the information until the fantastic stories become more mundane with each retelling. You might want to think about that approach.)

If you toss out the laws of probabilities you do not help your cause one bit. What do you have besides mostly anonymous entirely unsubstantiated claims? Where are the victims? Who are the victims? Where are the documented histories of treatment for trauma due to abuse? Where are the medical bills, the lost jobs and broken homes due to inability to cope with all this unbridled abuse at the hands of a Manson / Koresh / J. Jones / Hitler figure? (ex members comparisons, not mine) No one had to look hard for that group’s victims and their documented and detailed histories of abuse.

What do you have in real evidence in 40 years? A lone civil suit by a 17 year old who claimed he had unlawful sex with RB? An individual who filed his claim soon after his farther was expelled from the FoF? An individual who decided he preferred to take a few hundred thousand dollars rather than bring his abuser to trial? That’s not much to stake so much of your life trying to rectify, is it?

The way people are made we can’t do two things at once very well. One or both of the activities must suffer. If you are a brain surgeon you can’t have a cell phone conversation while operating on a patient, either the patient will be worse off or the conversation will be compromised.

You can’t live your life fully and dedicate a significant portion of it to trying to bring down an organization you no longer belong to because of a notion of “phantom victims” being abused in this organization that is as easy to leave as not making out a check and signing it over. You should want more than that from the rest of your life, especially if you feel you have already wasted too much time in the organization in question. Ex members will read this and say, “what a clever ploy, this is his way of getting us to ease off of his beloved school”, but that would be an incorrect assumption.

I harbor no ill will towards you. There are already too many unhappy people in the world. It’s bad for everyone. I’d much rather see you out fishing or doing whatever strikes your fancy than seeing you out picketing in front of the gatehouse. The picketing does not change much, if anything. I think you know that.

That’s not why I say this. If you want to know the truth, I see that the blog, if anything, helps the FoF; in recruitment, in any number of ways. Without the blog I would not have been able to list the comments of those ex members, whose true nature speaks for itself. The blog will not keep one true student away, or help one true student to leave. It will only keep away those who would not have stayed anyway thereby saving both sides time and energy. The school has never been about numbers, but its always been about spaces. If someone ill suited for it stays away someone who connects with it has a space waiting.

You might also like to think about a hypocritical action you engaged in recently. You were the only one with the resolve to call out Elena, but ultimately it is seen as a self-serving action. You did not call her out because of her extremist nature and abusive tirades. She did not represent the most vulgar or abusive poster here. There are several still posting who you ignore who are more abusive than Elena. You called Elena out because she began to attack other ex members, i.e. those whose viewpoints you share. I get much more verbal abuse from any number of ex members than Elena dished out to WhaleRider but that doesn’t phase or concern you one bit. So, as I see it, your standing up to Elena was purely self serving, doing the right thing for the wrong reason. You may not even relate to what I’m saying but any open minded viewer sees it for what it is, and it doesn’t serve your cause well.

89. Mikey - November 27, 2009

I knew some dim-wit would respond to It.
Have I proved my point? You betcha.

90. Jomo Piñata - November 27, 2009

Lacuna Piñata, you wrote:

There was no bait and switch.

“Last night I dreamt I was eating a giant marshmallow. When I woke up, the pillow was gone!”

Man, you been eating pillows all these years. Someday you gonna wake up with a real tummyache!

91. arthur - November 27, 2009

Ok, you ex-members of a cult for intellectuals, smarty-pants one and all.

Which one of those 44 whatevers that you once claimed hovered above your dining room table sucked pee-cocks for recreation and RE-creation? Was it Jesus, Mohamed, Buddha, Gurdjieff, Ouspensky or Colin?

Did any by written word condone or condemn sucking pee-cocks for recreation or RE-creation?

When Robert Burton claimed #5 that’s three levels of thickness from the Top of the pile he said said something about thunder and smoke.
Did he ever mention the Mirrors he introduced? As in smoke and mirrors!

92. Bares Reposting - November 27, 2009

88. Daily Cardiac

78. Wouldnt You Like To Know
stated it quite aptly in saying:
‘you can know the tree by the fruit that it bears. And, if you are the fruit that the tree, Fellowship of Friends (a.k.a. Pathway to Presence), bears, then, Res Ipsa Loquitur (It speaks for itself.).’

You obviously had plenty of turkey to eat because you speak like one. But I defend your right to be herd.

93. ton - November 27, 2009

92 BR
“But I defend your right to be herd.”

that should be “herded” —
(as in a group of cattle, sheep, or other domestic animals of a single kind kept together for a specific purpose).

88 dc writes:

“The words of ex members have no sway over me….”

words surely issued from an opened mind…. (ya right).

if nothing gets through, exactly what is the point of attempting to engage dc in a “reasonable” conversation?

the dc agenda:

94. Anon E. Mouse - November 27, 2009

Squeaky Loves Charlie

95. Crouching Tiger - November 27, 2009

“I have made the verifications necessary for me to value as true what I do value. The words of ex members have no sway over me. If any words here were able to sway me it would only mean I hadn’t really verified anything but just thought I had. Or it may mean I forgot the verifications. Objective truths do not change from day to day or year to year. They just are.”

This is really the core of the issue of why people get exasperated with you DC. You’re clinging so hard to your ‘verifications’ that you can’t let anyone’s experience, let alone opinion, challenge them in any way. So where is there any real possibility of dialogue in that scenario? Nowhere. You’re asking for a fundamentally unequal conversation in which no-one’s views can even threaten to upset yours, and no-one in their right mind will accept that as a starting-point.

You want everyone here to neuter themselves and talk about their experiences as if they are just an OPINION. As if they happened to someone else and can be considered at leisure. But someone like Bruce is asking you to consider his experience as he lived through it, not as you rationalise it now. Ask yourself why are you asking for the kind of conversation where everything is loaded in your favour?

I have tried to indicate to you the huge differences between Gurdjieffs teaching and Burton’s version of the 4th Way, which you still can’t accept. Like Bruce but in a different area, my experience has earned me the right to talk about the Fellowship and Robert Burton. It is the same for others here. Your response is to dismiss these reservoirs of experience as irrelevant or suspect compared to the power of your own ‘verifications’.

If you want to wail about your lack of connection with anyone here, look to yourself first. You are really the only one who cannot admit they could possibly be wrong. Almost everyone else has had that admission wrung out of them by their experience with Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. The memory of that ‘being so incredibly wrong when we thought we were so right’ is what allows us to talk, and truly consider the views of others, in the first place.

96. ton - November 27, 2009

88 dc writes:

“The words of ex members have no sway over me….”

these words from dc exemplify how open-minded this person is and shows how willing dc is to engage in a “reasonable” conversation. this screed from dc in 88 provides yet more proof – as if we need it – of the power which BELIEF exerts in altering, twisting, bending and distorting reality. because of the bubble in which dc exists, reality is at best distorted and devoid of any shred or semblance of objectivity. dc uses this venue to exercise self-reinforcement of a bizarre and delusional belief “system” — if nothing else dc proves one of the tenets of his beliefs, that being; “man is a machine…” surely a person can’t be any more programmed and mechanical than the likes of a dc?!?
here’s dc singing an old tune:

[audio src="http://www.palantir.net/2001/tma1/wav/daisy.wav" /]

97. ton - November 27, 2009

dc proves a tenet of his belief system: “man is a machine…”

dc singing an old tune:

98. Dr. Pangloss - November 27, 2009

Daily Cardiac/HAL faces his true essence in his last moments…

99. ton - November 27, 2009

pangloss,
just one of the many ironies of a situation rich with irony, sickeningly rich… trapped, brain-washed and implanted with the meme/notion that through efforts in “the work” and by following “the system” (read: burtonism), these poor fof cultitsts believe they become less mechanical than the “ordinary,” lowly, loathsome so-called “life” people, when in fact just the opposite is true…. in fact the less they question is an indication of the better “student” — programmed to be submissive, subservient and unquestioning machines, clearly evidenced by the absurdity of the “DC” posts:

“…Truth be told there is one true way and many false ways…”

this is textbook dogma: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof…

100. Ames Gilbert - November 27, 2009

DC, thank you for taking the time to address my post 49. Speaking for myself, I don’t presume to know your state of mind or your verifications better than you do. Ditto the hundreds of followers who agree with you and stay in the Fellowship of Friends. What I do suggest, based on my own experience and the fact that I once held many similar beliefs to you, is that you examine how you came to hold those beliefs, and the nature of your verifications. When I did that for myself, I was amazed to find that almost my entire belief system was built on sand, and what I had formerly thought were solid verifications were insubstantial wisps. I examined where my beliefs came from, how my aims had altered from the day I joined the Fellowship to when I began questioning. I also asked a lot of people for their opinions and observations on the same matters, and tried to study how their conceptual frameworks worked. So now I try to share what I have learned.

Daily Cardiac, try to understand that I’m not trying to convert you to ‘my way of thinking’, whatever that might be. I’m not trying to convert anyone to anything. Nor am I trying to ‘bring down the Fellowship’. That would be futile. I am recommending that you start asking a series of questions of yourself. But, you’re not interested, and that is exactly right for you. What I do know (but of course this is also unknowable to you) is that I have been sincerely appreciated and thanked for my efforts on this blog. That feedback is sufficient to know I’m not wasting my time. Think of it as ‘third line work’, but not in the selfish, self–serving, limited way defined by the Fellowship. This is work for people mostly unknown to me.

Daily Cardiac, your blog name is just a convenient handle; obviously I have no idea of who you actually are. When I address you, it is not and cannot be personal. In reality, I’m simply communicating my understandings to those who are ready to hear, those people that have arrived at the particular place and time where they can hear. You apparently are not in this place, and indeed are repulsed by the very thought of arriving at such a place. Fine. I can hope that you’ll be ready some day. This also explains why I don’t defend you against catcalls and slurs. Why would I waste my time defending a blog name? Elena, however, I know personally, and Whalerider I know personally, and DXP I know personally, so I respond personally. So, sue me, I’m human.

I appreciate and agree with your point that any readers will come to their own conclusions, having read your posts and ours. I defend your right to be heard, as I defend my right to skip your or anyone else’s posts if I wish, and my right to protest if an Elena comes along and dumps on us (her new blog has reached 156,000 words in over 250 posts on one—very long—page!). And I sincerely thank you for your efforts; no one who reads your posts could deny you have not made your viewpoints, your beliefs and those of the Fellowship quite clear. You take considerable time and trouble to do this, and I’m grateful.

101. nige - November 27, 2009

Daily Cardiac…..

Read, and inwardly digest…..Nigel.

“If you want to wail about your lack of connection with anyone here, look to yourself first. You are really the only one who cannot admit they could possibly be wrong. Almost everyone else has had that admission wrung out of them by their experience with Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. The memory of that ‘being so incredibly wrong when we thought we were so right’ is what allows us to talk, and truly consider the views of others, in the first place.”

102. nige - November 27, 2009

99 Ames Gilbert

I am beginning to be positively affected by your posts…..something about Lunars being systematic and Venusians ‘holding the faith’? Your remark about Celtic Super-Hero was quite correct – the ‘god-crazy’ in me has not held much sway these days (so much attention needed to propel my students’ individualities to the forefront in our Annual Exhibition, as they are such dedicated proponents of our metal craft) “and silken dalliance in the wardrobe lies” (Henry V) – I actually very rarely wear my self-decorated-by-symbols American Bomber Jacket at all…..

Just a little story about type-interface…..

A few months ago, I was in the secondary surgery of the Isca Medical Practice, of which I am a patient, and what one blogger might have described as ‘an irritating little Lunar’ (she being mostly Saturnine) was on the reception desk. I was not in one of my usually impatient and not-willing-to-wait moods but stated why I had come and which doctor I was hoping to see. Then a Huge Moment of Calm came over me and I was able to listen to him explaining how the practice worked and what would be necessary for me to be seen as soon as conveniently possible. I actually said to him – “That makes perfect sense to me; thank you for explaining how your system works”. I think, if I ever needed a controller for my business, it would be a Lunar-Venusian, especially in the areas of wise money-management. You will probably, Ames, need to ‘call me out’ on my 8-of-Hearts, Solar-Mars-Joviality vain moments a few more times, but let it be known, I do appreciate what you have posted and are continuing to post…..Nigel.

103. Opus 111 - November 27, 2009

There is one thing DC wrote with which I wholeheartedly agree:

Also, the knowledge of what the FoF is is unassailable. One only has to be open to it to see that.

DC sophistry is common place in religious zealots. When faced with troubling facts, peppered over 86 pages, he answers with questions about awakening, real schools and the number of angels that can fit on a pin.

Yes DC, the knowledge of what the FOF truly is is unassailable, and if you can see and want to hear, you will find it ain’t very pretty or spiritual.

104. WhaleRider - November 27, 2009

MEMORANDUMB

TO: All Serious Followers of My Religion
FROM: Robert E. Burton, Brightest Blight in 2000 Years
RE: New Verifications to Verify
DATE: Right This Instant

Dears,

I have just VERIFIED through my exclusive super galactic relationship with my Higher Unconscious Forces that a new spiritual entity has chosen to work with our illustrious preschool. We are so incredibly lucky!

It is the Hummingbird Spirit.

From this moment on, even though I have already VERIFIED this for you, I would like all you sweet underlings to journey forth and also VERIFY that I am right or you will be asked to leave my preschool for lack of valuation.

The next time you see a hummingbird in any form, it will remind you to be present like only I have been telling you to do, which will also be a VERIFICATION that you were not present that moment before and now you are.

If you were present, which I highly doubt, but sometimes you might be, then you will use it to VERIFY that maybe you just might be present for that moment and for that moment only, but only for as long as the see the hummingbird. See how easy it works?

I would like to also announce a contest for who has the most VERIFICATIONS in the next 30 days.

Every time you see a hummingbird and VERIFY that, yes, it is working with the preschool like I told you it is, then jot it down in the over priced gilded notebook and pen that you have to buy from me.

The follower with the most VERIFICATIONS will win a chance to have dinner with me at a significantly reduced price! Isn’t that divine?

So start looking for those hummingbirds, and I will reward you with lots of empty praise for all your hard work out there…VERFIYING only what I have told you to VERIFY.

105. James Mclemore - November 28, 2009

While some may disagree, it is beginning to look to me that DC cannot be held responsible for anything. As I think Ames pointed to, our frustration with him is just exasperation with the ‘thickness’ (thanks veramente) of the situation. I used to entertain the idea that DC is at least partly responsible for protecting and attempting to justify the abhorrent acts of Robert Burton and his Pathway to Presence cult. I am not so sure anymore. He may be beyond being ‘responsible’, at least in the ways in which we might normally think of ‘responsibility’.

Whoever DC once was in terms of human open-ended creative possibilities looks to have been completely swallowed and digested by ‘ideas’ (bad ones unfortunately). The single hope would be it is only temporary. He seems to be essentially ‘missing in action’ and no longer responsible for anything other than his own internal mess and that upcoming tummy ache that he created for himself by eating all those pillows in his sleep (thanks Jomo). In the dream I guess they must have actually looked and tasted just like marshmallows. The taste, I suspect, will not be as sweet if they ever come back ‘up’.

One of DC’s dream tactics, while munching on those pillows, may be to ‘draw fire’. His imaginary martyrdom might rather have us speaking of and attacking him, than speaking directly of Robert Burton and his Pathway to Presence scam and the abuses Burton perpetrates against innocent people. It is a credit to those who post here, that the tactic almost never works; the source of all those ‘dream marshmallows’, being ever so obvious.

106. James Mclemore - November 28, 2009

Now WhaleRider – about those hummingbirds……………

Are you saying there are only certain hummingbirds that are currently working with the pre-school, or that all can be meaningful with the right sort of verifabrication? Do they merely need to see and record having witnessed them? It sounds too easy, and yet I certainly hope they don’t need to catch and eat them.
I get so confused with some of these esoteric ideas. I think I may be getting the hummingbirds and the pillow/marshmallow thing that Jomo was talking about, all run together in my mind.

107. Spock - November 28, 2009

Ironic isn’t it? We supposedly joined the FOF to wake up. Great page everyone. DC propagandist(s) too.

108. Spock - November 28, 2009

By the way, his/her/its task is to show up and divert the commentary whenever things begin to get, uh, uncomfortable.

Whenever he/she/it shows up, read the posts immediately prior to him/her/it showing up. It’s probably something they don’t want us to read.

109. Spock - November 28, 2009

And by the way, happy thanksgiving. And let us be thankful “for our good luck” — for seeing that leaving is wise and healthful and necessary. My most profound act of friendship in the Fellowship of “Friends” was leaving. And beginning anew.

110. Spock - November 28, 2009

Live long and prosper.

111. Daily Cardiac - November 28, 2009

ton – 76, 77 – James Mclemore – 83:

What is occurring in these posts is the common refrain of attacking the messenger and ignoring the message. We already know how you two feel about me. Why not simply take a block of comments and address them. Go point for point and illustrate why they can’t be so. Give us your reasoning why.

ton – 76:

“dc’s agenda here is all too obvious, it’s about reducing the blog to a pissing contest, a game of ‘he said, she said’ in which his own opinion might be passed off as valid. in his own mind it is, it’s the “truth” he lives with. in his mind he wins this little game he’s playing if he can arrange the wording and manipulate truth so that it “resonates” in such a way as to persuade others to accept his views. as it is said “he has a right to his opinions” but in my opinion, the real “value” of his views as they’re expressed here lie solely in the fact that they provide an example of and insight into the mentality of a fof cultist.”

One will notice that in this block of comments not one issue is addressed or refuted. There is no matching of reason with reason. It’s entirely dedicated to talking about me, projecting notions of what I am about, what my motivations “are.”

“in the world of norms and even relatively “moral” folks, the role of a teacher implies trust of the teacher on the part of the student… as a fiduciary a teacher is entrusted to act on behalf of the student but this sexual predator violates trust at every turn and in fact he depends upon the relationship of trusting student and his role as authority figure in order to lure his prey….”

Again, this is one broad assumption. It must first be established that the individuals being referred to were/are being coerced. There is no need for a predator if the sex is consensual. And there is no indication it is anything other than consensual. Did Robert slip a mickey to everyone wiping out the word “No” from their memories?

“here’s another classic line of horseshit from dc:

“They do not act according to some personal code of conduct but follow a universal spiritual code – that’s one of the conditions that determines whether they are enlightened or not.”

what is this bullshit about “universal spiritual code” — dc would you define exactly what that is for us?”

The universal spiritual code I was referring to is experienced in the Third and Fourth states of consciousnss. The states that dissolve the differences of personalities and also essences between individuals and reveals the unity between those same individuals sharing presence together. Maybe “universal” was a bit of an overreach.

Do either of you subscribe to the existence of higher states of consciousness?

ton – 77:

“it seems that because burton has not landed in prison it exonerates him and proves his “innocence.” ”

Using your logic a person who’s not received a traffic ticket in 40 years would be assumed to be breaking the speed limit every time they got behind the wheel.

J M – 83:

“Really DC, if you could actually hear what this stuff sounds like, I would think you would be embarrassed at having said it. It sounds like something that might have come from a Marvel comic book.”

You once said my posts make you sleepy. Are you sure you were not a little groggy when you formulated the above comment?

WYLTK – 78:

“73. Daily Cardiac:
‘You don’t know the motivations of RB for being intimate with any of the ones he is intimate with. You can’t say for sure if it is an aid or hindrance to the individual’s spiritual growth.’

Guess what, DC, NEITHER DO YOU ‘know the motivations of RB.’ So, your supposition of anything in relation to his being an enlightened being are baseless and without the slightest degree of foundation.”

I’m not the one claiming to know; however, I am the one offering other possibilities as to the motivations. There is a big difference between the two.

112. Bares Reposting - November 28, 2009

93. ton:
’92 BR
“But I defend your right to be herd.”
that should be “herded” –
(as in a group of cattle, sheep, or other domestic animals of a single kind kept together for a specific purpose).’

With all due respect for what you said, no, I meant what I said. ‘Right to be herd’ means that DC, as one of the herd, IS the herd, and therefore the statement is correct. Herd: noun; herded: verb.

95. Crouching Tiger:
‘DC. You’re clinging so hard to. . .’ the shepard. That’s why you are herd.

‘This is really the core of the issue of why people get exasperated with you DC. You’re clinging so hard to your ‘verifications’ that you can’t let anyone’s experience, let alone opinion, challenge them in any way. So where is there any real possibility of dialogue in that scenario? Nowhere. You’re asking for a fundamentally unequal conversation in which no-one’s views can even threaten to upset yours, and no-one in their right mind will accept that as a starting-point.’

DC is very well buffered – kundabuffered.

96. ton:
‘this screed from dc in 88 provides yet more proof – as if we need it – of the power which BELIEF exerts in altering, twisting, bending and distorting reality.’

The latest brain research reveals that human brains remain considerably ‘plastic,’ or elastic, even in adulthood. That is why brainwashing is so effective. What you think and what you do with your brains actually restructures it. After a certain period of time the brain becomes remolded to specific purposes. DC cannot think otherwise. A narcissistic sociopath sexual predator brain has been formed by that person’s experience (read: crystallized) and will not be any different until the experiences become different.

Therefore, this applies:

105. James Mclemore:
‘DC cannot be held responsible for anything.’

BUT THIS DOES LEAVE HOPE that a person’s brain can return to some semblance of normalcy post Fellowship of Friends, also known as: Pathway to Presence.

Re: pillow/marshmallow thing:
‘The taste, I suspect, will not be as sweet if they ever come back ‘up’.’

Have you ever regurgitated a belly full of feathers? It ain’t pretty, nor tasty! But does fly in the face of common sense.

106. James Mclemore:
‘Are you saying there are only certain hummingbirds that are currently working with the pre-school, or that all can be meaningful with the right sort of verifabrication?’

Ever tried to herd hummingbirds? It ain’t pretty! No way that ALL hummingbirds are doing diddley-squat for the preschool.

113. nige - November 28, 2009

Daily Cardiac wrote…..

“One will notice that in this block of comments not one issue is addressed or refuted. There is no matching of reason with reason. It’s entirely dedicated to talking about me, projecting notions of what I am about, what my motivations “are.”

The universal spiritual code I was referring to is experienced in the Third and Fourth states of consciousnss. The states that dissolve the differences of personalities and also essences between individuals and reveals the unity between those same individuals sharing presence together. Maybe “universal” was a bit of an overreach.

Do either of you subscribe to the existence of higher states of consciousness?”

It is obvious that your reasons for being here are to defend the Fellowship of Friends and, in particular, the misdoings of Robert Earl Burton, AGAIN BY SOME FORM OF REASONING. Then you go on to ‘spout forth’ about the Third State and Fourth State of Consciousness (admittedly, you are right about dissolving Persoanlity – my personal verification – but not Essence – Essences stand forth more individually and not ‘blended’ in those two Higher States – again, my verification) as though they were States Only Accessible to Those in the Fellowship of Friends (and, believe you me, they bring forth more than ‘mere presence’). You cannot see that, although Twiddley-Dee Higher States are Manifested through Refinement (which only reaches a certain Note Before Interval in the Table of Hydrogens), when Regeneration occurs, which is ‘without school’, without form and without bringing Negative Harm (note well, REB) to anyone, its work flies into the Spiritual Realm, which is Interfused in the Physical. Try working with those ideas before you start refuting them (I have Elena to post to, on the interwoven subjects of Argument and Dialogue)…..Nigel.

114. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 28, 2009

111. Daily Cardiac:
‘WYLTK – 78:

“73. Daily Cardiac:
‘You don’t know the motivations of RB for being intimate with any of the ones he is intimate with. You can’t say for sure if it is an aid or hindrance to the individual’s spiritual growth.’

Guess what, DC, NEITHER DO YOU ‘know the motivations of RB.’ So, your supposition of anything in relation to his being an enlightened being are baseless and without the slightest degree of foundation.”

I’m not the one claiming to know; however, I am the one offering other possibilities as to the motivations. There is a big difference between the two.’

There you go folks. DC abrogates all knowledge that RB is an enlightened being. So, you see, he knows a hawk from a handsaw.

‘I am but mad north-north-west: when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw.’
Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, Act II. Scene II, William Shakespeare

Yes, DC, ‘other possibilities’ are that he is a hawk or a handsaw; or even a narcissistic personality disordered sociopath sexual predator with a megalomania specialty. But his sexual encounters could be motivated by the most altruistic purposes.

115. Anon E. Mouse - November 28, 2009

“I see, said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw.”
Bless you DC, for your writings have certainly convinced me and obviously a few others. (Even though I cannot bear to read them through, I most enjoy the responses and I hope you do too).
You should expand your thinking and try to be aware that what you say has the exact opposite effect that you intend.
How foolish you seem, evermore creating bindings for yourself and trying to entangle others. You are to be pitied, but don’t deserve it.

116. ton - November 28, 2009

thanks to anon, wyltk, br, spock, james, whalerider, opus, ames, ct, nigel, and all…

re: “the messenger” v the message, this is another straw man argument, simply more sophistry and completely specious. as far as i’m concerned “DC” is the message, there is no separation here between message and messenger, they are one in the same, this is demonstrated in every single post wherein dc attempts to promote and perpetuate the malignancy that is burtonism and the fof enterprise designed solely for satisfying burton’s self-serving and self-agrandizing purposes…. “he’s just another greedy guru…” words stella wirk reputedly uttered when she woke up to the situation.

i have to wonder, is dc paid to insert burtonism into the blog? if it’s a “job,” in a way it would be much less disturbing, less “scary” on a human level than the alternative which is that dc’s “work” here issues strictly out of a firm conviction and belief in the malignancy that is burtonism. whatever the case, as a spokesperson and defender of burtonism there is no separation of message and messenger and as an unconscious tool of burton, dc is simply a cog in burton’s self-gratification scam… as such, to me dc represents part of the problem and i have no qualms about attacking message/messenger.

the fact that message and messenger are treated as synonymous should come as a compliment for dc, it means that dc the “messenger” IS the message as a result of firm faith and belief in burtonism. apparently dc no longer has any semblance of choice and free will, dc has been assimilated (anal sex pun intended).

an argument dc keeps trotting out here is that there is no “reasoning” in any point of view that stands against dc. this is another obvious straw man, dc is trapped in what is called “circular reasoning” he does not see the loop for what it is, dc cannot see beyond the loop. to dc this “system” of “reasoning” is the lens through which the world is distorted and when others who stand outside the mental circle dc is trapped by comment on it, dc glibly brushes off the comments as devoid of “reason.” how ironic. there is no “reasoning” with dc, he has stated: “The words of ex members have no sway over me….” and isn’t it the truth, this says it all, dc exists in a closed loop. (thanks to crouching tiger 95 for shedding more light on the feed-back loop in which dc operates).

dc writes:
“It must first be established that the individuals being referred to were/are being coerced. There is no need for a predator if the sex is consensual. And there is no indication it is anything other than consensual. Did Robert slip a mickey to everyone wiping out the word “No” from their memories?”

this is the “grey zone” that burton relies on… there are many forms of coercion and burton is a master of the psycho/emotional sort. the “mickey” burton uses is more subtle, complicated and multi-faceted than slipping a pill into a drink or use of a gun, the form burton uses is less overt, that’s why he gets away with it and that’s how his little enterprise continues to fly under the radar.

the “mickey” in this case involves and has to do with social programming, both prior to involvement in the fof and after taking the bait and falling into the trap. the coercion involved relies on how one was raised and childhood experiences, it has to do with the dominant judeo/christian memes that are implanted from an early age, etc.. the point is that there is a back-story to one’s involvement which has to factor in, it’s part of the soup.

burton’s scam is a confidence game, a con: one example of the way burton relies on and uses psychological techniques to get into the confidence of the “mark” — as i’ve said before, burton depends upon the implied relationship of trust that typically exists between student and teacher… the sexual predator case involving buzby aside, there was another lawsuit for breach of fiduciary responsibility brought against burton by someone who was not a “minor” ( t_____ . e_s_l_y), which speaks to this point. burton relies on the implied trust, naivete’ and a certain type of “neediness” on the part of his victims (e.g. the need for a father/ authority figure).

there is in the fof the implication that being in close contact with “the teacher” will lead the aspirant closer to the goal of “consciousness” — doing what “the teacher” bids, instructs and “tasks,” will lead to “awakening.” on the other hand to go against the instructions of “the teacher” leads to the student being anathema, an “outcast” and therefore damned to hell as a “life person” to become “food for the moon.” this is just one element of the many psychologically coercive techniques that are used directly by burton… this says nothing of the coercive mind-control environment that is endemic to the entire organization.

psychological techniques are more subtle than a “mickey” or a gun but once the victim is trapped unawares by deep conviction and belief in burtonism, in this case belief that one is damned if one goes against burton, this is the way burton uses the “student’s” beliefs and convictions as a coercive tool. these psychological techniques are more subtle yet more effective than other more physical forms of coercion.

(as a perspective gleaned from the outside-in, this is not for someone like dc and i wouldn’t expect someone like a dc to see or understand how this works… dc is trapped in the loops of fof “reasoning” — read: brain-washed).

the above is a just one example of the psychological coercion that goes on in the fof, there are many more examples but i don’t have the time to tease this thing out any further…. maybe that’s for others… dc might complain that i don’t argue “point for point”– well to me that’s just dc attempting to lure into his little world of absurd circular arguments…. i don’t have time for that but maybe dc will find what he’s looking for in that respect over at elena’s blog…. it seems she has time and of words to fill it with….

http://bbattleswordd.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/hello-world/#comments

117. Panoritsa - November 28, 2009

This morning a friend and ex-member told me that he “verified” that when his cat licks his forehead, a “third state” immediately appears…

The cat is black…

This is a cheaper way to experience “magical states.” Think about it, paying 10 % of your net income, Spring and Christmas and Fall Donations, paying for meetings, dinners, breakfasts, lunches, etc. in order to meet RB and his crew… Think about about and adopt a pet today! ( I am sure if you are allergic to cats, you could try any other pet…)

It is verifiable… Nothing to lose… No prospective student meetings…

118. Spock - November 28, 2009

ton, if he says you don’t argue him point for point, that’s interesting, because that’s his game. PR people and propagandists are great at it. They answer the questions that are most comfortable to answer, and ignore the questions that are least comfortable and try to change the topic. Propagandists are also very good at accusing others of the very tactics they use, which is a way of trying to divert people’s attention from their own tactics.

His/her/its very presence here is a type of lie. But then, the FOF itself is a lie. It’s always a good thing when this person(s) writes something here. It just exposes the FOF even more for what it is.

I think the last thing that Burton wants is for the blog to become more obviously a source of wisdom to people who are trying to sort things out and recover from the mess they got themselves into. But if you look though all of the pages, including this one, he’s been unable to stop it. There’s an enormous amount of help here — intelligent, wise, and filled with love — most of the time a “tough” sort of love, but it is love. So the shills are necessary to water things down and try to drag things into the gutter. It really doesn’t matter what they say — their goal is to just throw the words up against the wall again and again, and hope they stick. Mix and match. It’s a classic cult buzzword generator, just like the “Fellowship” itself — completely lacking substance and value, and completely lacking any concern about the damage and dysfunction and illness that exist within those words.

Someone recently told me that the Fellowship taught us discipline. I respect that perception — sometimes. Of course, I learned, and continue to learn, discipline in many other places, too. But think about it. Did the Fellowship of Friends really teach “discipline”? And does it now? Or did we just use stern tones of voice and big words, and stand still for two hours while someone spewed nonsense while sitting on a stage in the front of the room? That was discipline?

No, discipline is knowing that young men are in your care, and that many people have made themselves vulnerable to your power, but then not exercising that power over them, and keeping your dick inside your pants, and not grabbing for theirs. That’s discipline. When someone can say Robert Burton has stopped this nonsense (not holding our respective breaths over that), I’ll gladly consider that the Fellowship of Friends may actually teach people “discipline.”

119. Spock - November 28, 2009

Live long and prosper, by the way.

120. ton - November 28, 2009

spock,
this “DC” must be “moonlighting” for FOX news… if not there’s a future for “DC” in that type of “fair and balanced” journalism.

121. Spock - November 28, 2009

ton,
uh-huh, many parallels. Almost the same three letters, by the way. FOX and FOF.

The FOF claims:

– It produces fair and balanced journalism (objective knowledge)
– It digs for the truth and uncovers the story within the story (esoteric knowledge).
– It produces in-depth and penetrating journalism (promotes understanding).
– It doesn’t shy away from challenging stories (doesn’t buffer).
– It’s more about sound journalism than it is about making money for its advertisers and supporting certain corporate interests (fundraisers, huge payments, payment is a principle, etc.).
– It’s honest journalism unlike that “liberal” media (life people).

And of course, at both FOX and FOF broadcasting, only those commentators are allowed to speak who promote the party line. All criticism is directed toward those who oppose that party line (ex-students, life people, etc.).

122. James Mclemore - November 28, 2009

DC –

I guess you are correct. I am experiencing some grogginess. The only response to your post that I seem to be able to come up with is this “Deep Thought” by Jack Handey I found the other day.

“I think a new, different kind of bowling should be “carpet bowling”. It’s just like regular bowling, except the lanes are carpet instead of wood. I don’t know why we should do this, but my God, we’ve got to try something.”

123. James Mclemore - November 28, 2009

Damnit Panoritsa –

Thanks to WhaleRider I am already constantly on the outlook for hummingbirds everywhere I go, and now you tell me I need a kitten to lick my forehead. Is there no end to this madness?

124. James Mclemore - November 28, 2009

And DC, in reference to the videos posted yesterday, and no matter what anyone either here or in your cult says, I personally think you would look ‘sweet upon the seat of a bicycle built for two’.
Just picture it, – you, and your ‘Goddess in a man’s body’ riding off together into the mystical sunset, guided by that ‘universal spiritual code’, and finally leaving us poor ex-members far, far behind and pitifully lost in our ‘lower selves’.
Have a safe trip, and please…don’t forget to write. You have become sort of like our ‘real time’ exhibit of what happens in the mind when people become indoctrinated into a closed-loop thought system.

125. Panoritsa - November 28, 2009

My sincere and humble apologies for this fine mess and confusion James Mclemore, but” this is the true nature of the evolution dear!”

Kittens have provided the mankind with far more third states than any hummingbird. Take a close look at all the cave paintings, go to Egypt and even Ouspensky had a kitten… not to mention the best example of identification: a cat running after a mouse… and for all Fourth Way professors: wasn’t it Mr. Gurdjieff that said that cats were aware of their “moving centre”? Can’t you see it? It is all there…

Cats is the answer to all your “magnetic centre” questions…

126. Panoritsa - November 28, 2009

and never go swimming with tigers…

127. 411 - November 28, 2009

I’ll answer some of DC’s questions.

Do I believe in “higher states”?

Well, I believe in altered states. Whether they are higher or not I can’t say. Is the state of lust I experience towards an attractive woman I see in a restaurant “lower” than the state of awe I experience when watching a sunset at the beach?

I do know one thing about teachers; they can’t teach you anything unless they know who you are and what level you are on in your development. I don’t think Robert Burton really is a teacher at all. I think he likes to dictate ideas and if you get it then you’re in. If you don’t get it, then you are out. Robert likes to make all these pithy statements (daily cards, etc) and pass this off as teaching.

To use fellowship language; I know how to separate from my I’s. I know how to bring myself into the present moment. I know how to surround myself with higher hydrogens. Why would I need to stay in the Fellowship of Friends unless I just wanted to hang on?

128. Silentpurr - November 28, 2009

Dear Daily Cardiac
Your defenses of Robert are weak and uninspired.Please remember that we are also people who also KNOW Robert and have looked to him as an example of what can HAPPEN to someone with mental problems and a little bit of knowledge. As when new wine is poured into old bottles. It spoils.
The Fellowship never had a chance to be GREAT! thanks to Robert! who claimed to have awakened by ” Doing everything his teacher asked him to do”! butt was unable to………
I am referring to the task set by Alex Horn. The task requiring Robert to refrain from asking for sex from uninterested people.He couldn’t keep to task and was expelled. His sexual addiction AND his bold lies represent the thinking and decision-making of an unsound mind.The fact that you apologize for him reveals something about your level of being as well.

129. Silentpurr - November 28, 2009

PS I am a goddess in the body of Bastet, and I too love hummingbirds, meow.

130. Ill Never Tell - November 28, 2009

116. ton:
‘apparently dc no longer has any semblance of choice and free will, dc has been assimilated (anal sex pun intended).’

assimilated: I guess you mean: ass immolated, as in:
im·mo·late, transitive verb (im·mo·lat·ed; im·mo·lat·ing): Etymology: Latin immolatus, past participle of immolare to sprinkle with meal before sacrificing, sacrifice, from in- + mola sacrificial barley cake, literally, millstone; akin to Latin molere to grind — more at meal. Date: 15th century:
1 : to offer in sacrifice; especially: to kill as a sacrificial victim
2 : to kill or destroy often by fire

‘dc is trapped in what is called “circular reasoning” he does not see the loop for what it is, dc cannot see beyond the loop.’

When you are doing the 69 sex position you cannot see very far.

124. James Mclemore:
‘I personally think you would look ’sweet upon the seat of a bicycle built for two’.
[Just picture it, – you, and your ‘Goddess in a man’s body’ riding off together into the mystical sunset, guided by that ‘universal spiritual code’, and finally leaving us poor ex-members far, far behind and pitifully lost in our ‘lower selves’.]’

BTW, JM, REB did exactly that, bought a bicycle built for two and rode around the property/gardens with his latest sweetheart (read: male prostitute). Most people gushed, ‘Oh! how sweet.’ And, out of patterns, too. Created third state. Of course, REB was taking up the rear.

131. James Mclemore - November 28, 2009

Bastet (aka Silentpurr) –

I had heard of you before somewhere, but had to do a little search. Wow, you are very, very old. You’re the one who holds the sacred musical rattle.

132. brucelevy - November 29, 2009

116. ton

“i have to wonder, is dc paid to insert burtonism into the blog?”

I get the distinct feeling that’s it’s more in the realm of self-created apparent worth, in relation to RB and the FOF. If you think about it, the blog is much more of a captive audience for DC than anyone in the FOF. I can’t imagine anyone actually stands around and listens to his pompous, deluded bull shit even in the FOF. Yet here he is spouting his crap, while I’m sure if he did the same at a meeting, and it wasn’t pre-written and pre-approved they’d tell him to STFU, using flowery words of course. Or give him a task, like they did Elena.

I’d love if RB gave DC his opinion of him using all his precious higher energies on the crap he puts so much time in here. One would think, as awakening is something for one’s self, and can’t be given to others, why a successful student would be looking for attention and energy here when he lives in an environment where, supposedly, they all share the same basic goal. Why would DC continually put pearls before swine. Because he’s a loser and a douche bag, and that’s objective knowledge goodness. When your level of being changes, you’ll see that I’m right.

DC…”And there is no indication it is anything other than consensual.”

And he’s fucking stupid, shallow and impervious to the obvious.

133. Silentpurr - November 29, 2009

Yes James,
As Bastet, I am the embodiment of all that is feline. And all cats hold the Sacred musical rattle. At this moment along with my minions of Cosmic Cats, we have trained our gaze on to a serpent,who is claiming to reside in the body of a certain foolish mortal.It is especially interesting to observe the slithering pomposity of it all. Isis! The Nerve!
As for you James, I see a circle of coziness, the symbol of eternity. You and your dear ones, warmed by a winter’s fire.

134. arthur - November 29, 2009

“The reason that ‘guru’ is such a popular word is because ‘charlatan’ is so hard to spell”——William J. Bernstein

Robert E. Burton ‘guru’ of a church?

Does Robert E. Burtons “Pathway to Presense” Church Christian?

Does Robert E. Burton follow all the precepts of Christ’s teachings as an example to his flock? Or, does he use his Tax-exemption for personal benefits as “Charalatan’s want to do?

Seekers want to know.

135. arthur - November 29, 2009

Corrections:

“Is Robert E. Burton’s “Pathway to Presence” Church Christian?”

136. WhaleRider - November 29, 2009

ton’s awesome post 84:
“Often, the same person displays both narcissistic and codependency (co-narcissistic) behaviors, depending on circumstances. Both narcissists and codependents tend to assume that in any interpersonal interaction one person is narcissistic and the other codependent, and often can play either part.”

After a period of time in the Fellowship of Friends aka Pathway to Presence I noticed that ardent followers are given roles with some limited power that allows them to play the narcissist, but only when the role is employed to keep others in line. This is an ingrained cult behavior pattern.

IMO, Mr. Daily Cardic is here because he is allowed to play the covert narcissist as well, which he is using to reinforce the co-dependency of other followers who might be reading.

Seen any hummingbirds lately? They are working with the preschool, you know. Everytime you see one you just might be present, but I seriously doubt it. BTW, if you see enough of them, you might be given the chance to enter the fourth state of unconsciousness. Oh, we don’t talk about the fourth state in the preschool, just the third state. But who’d want to be stuck in New Jersey?

137. ton - November 29, 2009

PERCEPTION MANAGEMENT

within the cult “perception management” convinces enough people of a viewpoint and a “consensus” or “agreement” is reached as to what is “objectively” true. The agreed upon version of reality takes on a “weight” and becomes the established dogma of what is collectively imagined to be really happening.

like a “religious” truth, burtonism is irrationally believed as an act of faith by its card-carrying members, even if overwhelming evidence points to the contrary. anyone in the cult who doesn’t buy into the established story-line is marginalized and demonized, called crazy and tossed out of the organization as anathema, more fodder for the moon. when a certain number of people irrationally believe a fictionalized version of reality to be objectively true, they are considered “normal” by the group or at least accepted and supported by others who are enmeshed in the cult.

an aspect of the mass psychology of our species, animated and inspired by fear – which burtonism is only too happy to cultivate – reverts to the primitive psychology of the herd. A collective amnesia ensues, continually fed by a self-generating web of endless denial, as a manufactured consent is recreated anew every moment through belief in burtonism. a force-field which literally resists conscious reflection becomes conjured up around those who have fallen under the seductive spell of the agreed upon and artificially constructed consensus reality of burtonism. anyone reflecting back the unconscious condition of the cult is considered to be the enemy. (“You’re either with us or you’re with the enemy”).

Dissociating from their own darkness, they fight with it outside of themselves as it is projected into and reflected back by the world. believing in the agreed-upon fantasy, they collectively fall into their unconscious together and reinforce each other’s delusions in a self-perpetuating feedback loop, which is another way of saying that they have fallen into a type of collective psychosis. Burtonism, in some perverse way is able to manipulate and create “reality” for those who believe in it’s tenets and dogma. as a feedback loop, burtonism puts out dogmatic propaganda creating the very situation which “confirms” the “truth” of the propaganda as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

being in a position of power, burton taps into shaping a situation to his own advantage and at the expense of others. burtonism is parasitic in nature, it’s existence is dependent upon and perpetuated at the expense of others. Because of his position of power, burton can control others by manipulating events as well as playing with perceptions. by managing the perceptions of his “students” he can literally create events, and in creating events, he “manages” perceptions.

more later…

adapted from an article by paul levy

http://www.awakeninthedream.com/index.html

138. James Mclemore - November 29, 2009

ton –

Another great post, and thank you especially for this………

“a manufactured consent is recreated anew every moment through belief in burtonism”

**********
It apparently goes on until it doesn’t.

‘recreated anew every moment through belief in _____________'(fill in the blank)

I would think that is a good one for all of us to study in order to investigate what assumptions we can be enmeshed in. As the ‘consent’ and assumptions of a DC become so glaringly obvious, we can all learn to turn those lessons we have learned and are still learning back upon ourselves one more time to see what is going on inside. The dynamic of ‘belief’ seems to be difficult at times to see clearly. It can be subtle and seems to be able to ‘pretend’ not to be ‘belief’ at all. I found this the other day.

When looked at closely
The familiar is just as strange
As the unfamiliar

139. James Mclemore - November 29, 2009

Bastet –

Re: “my minions”

So, I suspect it was you, early this summer, who sent those 3 little kitties whose mother must have been the one who died in a traffic accident in front of my friend’s house, where I am presently staying. About two days after I saw the cat in the street, 3, not quite fully weaned, little ones came shyly popping out from under the tool shed, looking lost and hungry. I began feeding them and they seemed to assume that I was somehow the replacement of that other being that had sadly disappeared. Just recently I took them (females every one) for surgery to simplify their life and help stem the tide of over-population. My daughter was visiting once and gave them all names based on female classical music composers. They have become the most loving and trusting young cats I have ever experienced, and I have had a lot of feline friends in my life.
Thank you.

140. Spock - November 30, 2009

Post 84. I’m glad someone pointed it out or I would have missed it.

By the way, 137 ain’t bad either. Can we drop these posts out of airplanes? Do we have the technology yet to project them across the sky? Interrupt national and international television broadcasts and have Leonard Nimoy narrate them in endless loops?

Ok, not the right triad. But sometimes I think “being silent and keeping your mouth closed” were the only “right triads” in the FOF. Speaking up? the wrong triad.

And what on Earth (or Vulcan) does “right triad” mean anyway? Has anyone ever asked that question? Probably not, because it would have been the wrong triad.

141. Spock - November 30, 2009

And please, if you’re out there, don’t start spewing some nonsense about first force and third force and denying force and right action, or I’ll throw up all over you.

(that’s a reference to the most recent Star Trek movie when Bones and Kirk first met on… oh never mind.)

142. veramente - November 30, 2009

33 silentpurr/Bastet
Isis! The Nerve!
—-
indeed what a nerve, the serpent wanted not only all the male members but also the impersonification of a “Goddess in a male body”, the Nerve!

143. Yesri Baba - November 30, 2009

OUR SITUATION IS DIRE, AND THERE’S NO NEED FOR PESSIMISM
by Paul Levy
Things in the world seem really grim right now. Many people feel like we are on the verge of World War III. These are clearly apocalyptic, end-times we are living in. Many people are hopelessly pessimistic about the state of human affairs, feeling like there is nothing we can do to make a difference. It feels to some like we are descending into hell. It feels to others like we are on the verge of global collapse. Something seems terribly wrong. It seems like we are creating a living nightmare for ourselves. It is as if our planet has fallen under a demon’s curse. It is crucial that we shed light on the nature of the darkness that has befallen our planet.

We need to understand the nature of the beast we are dealing with. One thing we can say for sure is that the darkness does not want us to become aware of it. To become conscious of how the darkness plays itself out in our world is the last thing the darkness wants, just like a vampire can’t stand the light of day. For to see the darkness is to take away its power over us, as it can no longer act itself out through our unconscious. Just like sunlight flooding into a room instantaneously evacuates the darkness in the room, when we shed the light of consciousness on the darkness that is both in our world and within ourselves, the power of the darkness is immediately dis-spelled.

The darkness that is appearing in the outer world is not separate from, but is co-related to, the darkness within ourselves. The darkness that is manifesting in the outside world is simultaneously triggering a resonant re-action deep inside of ourselves. To the extent we are unconscious of what the darkness is triggering inside of ourselves, it enlists us as one of its unwitting agents, as the darkness feeds on our unawareness of it.

If we become entranced by the very convincing display of outer darkness that is materializing in the world and fall prey to pessimism, we have fallen under the darkness’s spell and are then feeding, supporting and helping to create the very darkness in the world which we are reacting to pessimistically. Bewitched by our own darkness, we relate to it as if it is independent and outside of ourselves, thinking our pessimistic reaction is justified by the dark goings-on that are “objectively” happening in the outside world. In choosing to see pessimistically, we don’t realize that we are filtering our interpretation of events through a pessimistic lens which then provides us with overwhelming evidence to confirm our pessimism.

To become pessimistic about what is playing out on the world stage is to become an unwitting instrument through which the darkness further incarnates and extends itself into our world. To become caught in pessimism is to fall victim to an infinitely regressing feedback loop: we wouldn’t be so pessimistic if our world wasn’t manifesting so darkly, and our world wouldn’t be manifesting so darkly if we weren’t so pessimistic. To become fixated in the point of view of seeing things pessimistically is to unwittingly become an ally of the very darkness that is inspiring our pessimism. This is to have fallen into a self-generating, samsaric feedback loop that is self-fulfilling in nature and will undoubtedly destroy us.

Becoming pessimistic is a symptom that the darkness has insinuated itself into our very consciousness, and is manipulating our perceptions of the world so as to further propagate itself. Becoming depressed and pessimistic is what the darkness wants, as it thirsts for us to become seduced by its convincing display of seemingly overwhelming power so that we give up our own power to it as well and believe all is lost. Imagining ourselves dis-empowered, we dis-associate from our “True Self” as well as from each other, disconnecting from our individual and collective “brilliance” (which, interestingly, connotes “light”). To give up and believe there is nothing we can do is to unknowingly join forces with the darker power, becoming its secret agents, our secret being secret even to ourselves.

To be pessimistic is to be arguing for our own impotence and limitation. If we win an argument about the truth of our pessimism, the “prize” we win is that we are screwed. There is something wrong with this picture. There is clearly something flawed and even perverse about our logic if it leads to such a self-defeating result. This flaw is like a red flag that can inspire us to self-reflect and look at what we are actually doing when we invest in a pessimistic world-view. Pessimism is a symptom that we are investing in our own decline and ultimately our own suicide.

I am not saying that we should just put on a smiley-face and become “everything turns out for the best” optimists. To only identify, like some so-called “spiritual” people do, with the “celestial rainbow” point of view, believing that everything is perfect and not problematic is overly one-sided, as it is dis-associated from the part of our experience that is seemingly “damned,” “cursed,” and deeply problematic. To identify with only one side of a two-sided polarity like this is to be actively in denial of and contracting against its opposite. To only identify with the light in actuality supports and feeds the dark. Over-identifying only with the light, we marginalize the darkness, which secretly empowers it, as the darkness then becomes something of which we are afraid. We are then unwittingly investing our energy into the darkness by our one-sided identification with the light. We need to shed the light of awareness on how the darkness plays itself out both outside in the world as well as inside of ourselves, as the darkness can potentially seduce us to be either overly optimistic or pessimistic. To fall into an extreme view like this is to ultimately be part of the problem, rather than embodying the solution.

I am not spouting some new age gibberish when I am urging us to not be pessimistic. I am simply pointing out that pessimism is not only unnecessary, but is actually dangerous, as it will help to actively create a self-fulfilling prophecy that will ultimately justify our pessimism. When I am saying not to be pessimistic, I am not marginalizing the darkness and saying that everything will turn out peaches and cream. I’m not talking about pretending the darkness isn’t really dark, and trying to imagine it out of existence by mindlessly affirming that everything is really OK, that everyone will live happily ever after. From one point of view, things are genuinely fucked. It is important not to marginalize that.

Our situation is extremely dire, while at the same time there is nothing to become pessimistic about. Being able to hold this paradox is the “crux” of the matter. This involves being able to hold these seemingly contradictory opposites together as both being true simultaneously. Our apocalyptic situation is very dire, while at the same time it is (potentially) the highest blessing: If we recognize what the darkness is revealing to us, it can (potentially) wake us up. Interestingly, the inner meaning of the word “apocalypse” is something hidden being revealed.

Our universe is manifesting as a genuine “coincidentia oppositorum,” a co-incidence of opposites, an auspicious coming together of the opposites where the opposites paradoxically reveal themselves to be both opposite and united at the same time. This holistic vision makes no sense and seems like pure nonsense as long as we are rigidly clinging to only one point of view and marginalizing another part of our experience. And yet, this more inclusive vision is itself the very expansion of consciousness which transforms the nature of our situation and empowers us to become genuine agents of change in the world.

Instead of identifying with one of the opposites and projecting out the other (which is to “split”), if we recognize that both of the seemingly contradictory opposites are true simultaneously, we have re-joined ourselves and retrieved our soul. Healing our split with the outside world and within ourselves, we are an active and activating participant in the birth of consciousness into human form. Stepping into the open-ended, embodied form of our wholeness, we become an agent of healing for the universe.

Shadows are an expression that light is nearby. Shadows are never found without light, which is to say that light and shadows are inseparably united into a deeper, more all-embracing whole. Paradoxically, hidden, in-coded inside the darkness is a light which (potentially) awakens (and is inseparable from) consciousness. Not being separate from the light, the darkness itself is an unmediated expression of and indivisible from the “light of consciousness” itself. This self-luminous light of awareness is a higher-order of light which embraces, unites and transcends the duality of light vs. darkness.

How our universe will unfold from this moment on depends upon whether or not we “consciously” re-cognize what the darkness is revealing to us as it acts itself out through us. The darkness itself is the revelation of the light, as it is the light revealing itself in the hidden form of darkness.

Shedding light on the darkness within us is a form of illumination. Once we become intimately related to and engaged with our own darkness, we become fluent in its language, coming to know how it behaves and operates within ourselves. We are then able to translate this familiarity with our own darkness in such a way so as to creatively illumine the darkness in the outer world. Once enough of us have made acquaintance with the darkness that exists within us, we are then able, like sunlight melting the morning dew, to collectively dis-spell the darkness that has seemingly enveloped our planet.

Paradoxically, it is only by coming to terms with the darkness within ourselves that we are able to step out of our trance-like addiction to pessimism and become full-bodied representatives of the all-embracing light of consciousness. Uniting in collective “lucidity” (which, etymologically, refers to “light”), we reciprocally co-inspire each other as we empower ourselves to create a more grace-filled universe to co-inhabit. A radical, evolutionary idea whose time has truly come!

A pioneer in the field of spiritual emergence, Paul Levy is a healer in private practice, assisting others who are also awakening to the dreamlike nature of reality. Paul is also a visionary artist and a spiritually-informed political activist. He is the author of The Madness of George Bush: A Reflection of Our Collective Psychosis,which is available on his website http://www.awakeninthedream.com. (See the first chapter, The Madness of George W. Bush: A Reflection of our Collective Psychosis). Please feel free to pass this article along to a friend if you feel so inspired. You can contact Paul at paul@awakeninthedream.com; he looks forward to your reflections. © Copyright 2009

144. Yesri Baba - November 30, 2009

“We need to understand the nature of the beast we are dealing with. One thing we can say for sure is that the darkness does not want us to become aware of it. To become conscious of how the darkness plays itself out in our world is the last thing the darkness wants, just like a vampire can’t stand the light of day. For to see the darkness is to take away its power over us, as it can no longer act itself out through our unconscious”

I can ‘see’ you and your little Dark Prince DC.

145. Dr. Pangloss - November 30, 2009

For those FOF members looking for gift ideas for their beloved teacher…

146. Silentpurr - November 30, 2009

Yes, Veramente, and that vile serpent is nesting in “the hole that can never be filled” in the foolish mortal’s heart…….. And rest assured, the foolish mortal has been hexed………HE RECEIVES NO PLEASURE!!!
purrt

147. snorer - November 30, 2009

DC
is your first name Hugh?

148. nige - December 1, 2009

Robert Burton walks into Ethan Harris’s office wearing only Seran-Wrap for shorts. Ethan Harris says – “I can clearly see you’re nuts.”

149. James Mclemore - December 1, 2009

Snorer –

At the top of the page there is sort of a request to not attempt to unmask anyone who posts here.

Although I feel no fondness for them, and their posts are certainly supportive of a very sick Robert Burton and his fellowship of friends and pathway to presence cult, I still would not wish DC to be unmasked without his/her permission anymore than I would wish that upon others here who wish to keep their anonymity, including evidently, yourself, unless that is your real name.

150. The FOFion - December 1, 2009

Burton Asks Members to Give ‘More’

OREGON D’HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — After recent consultations with angels hovering above the chandeliers in the Academy, Fellowship of Friends Guru Robert Burton is asking his followers to give “more.”

Beginning January 1, 2010, Pathway to Presence followers will be required to “give more money than they actually have” to remain in the school.

“Basically, whatever you’re giving now, that’s not enough,” said Senior Cult Spokeperson Carr D. Ack. “Before you can truly experience the blessings of higher forces, you need to give more than you actually have.”

Ack estimates that eventually Burton will ask people to give at least twice as much as their assets, and later perhaps three and four times as much. He had no answer for how they’ll be able to do that.

“But think about it,” Ack said, while shrugging his shoulders ala Burton. “If you don’t give more money than you actually have, what kind of sacrifice is that? Payment is a principle.”

Burton told his followers in a recent meeting that he’ll also increase the amount of money he spends. “The gods leave me no choice,” Burton said. “That’s how I’ve awakened — by doing the inevitible. Let us toast to my outrageous good fortune — excuse me, I mean our outrageous good fortune — and try not to think about the bad karma associated with my blatant deceit.”

Burton has been taking medication recently to step sudden outburts of honesty, but occasionally the medication wears off, Ack said.

151. James Mclemore - December 1, 2009

Someone wrote me elsewhere, and took exception to my post to ‘snorer’. (I am having technical difficulties on that site and could not respond personally, so I will do it here.)
I apologize if the post was, or sounded somehow out of place, or abrasive. I meant no disrespect to ‘snorer’, and I realize that DC is not going to answer. I just thought even to inquire about someone’s identity was pushing on a boundary. It is a boundary I have no personal stake in, except that I know there are those who do some very powerful writing on this blog that do not wish their identity known for, what I suppose to be, a variety of good reasons. Even though I knew nothing would probably come of ‘snorer’s post, it just seemed like an area that is unnecessary at best, and that could potentially have a downside to it.

152. fofblogmoderator - December 1, 2009

150 is new

153. nige - December 2, 2009

Ames, Ames, Ames…..

Please hear the strong prayer of the helpless, faithful one. If we have to go to Lunar-Venusian foundations to construct what Paul Levy (see http://www.awakeinthdream.com) has discovered is not a disorder but the training for full Shaman Hood, let it be so. I have discovered that flights of fancy, even into one’s own being, have not roots and are so easily taken away. Slow and steady wins the day and ‘stickability’ is the new word. Passive Anglo-Saxon Warrior, look into your roots and be my back-strung bow-cord…..Nigel.

“The Secret People

Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget,
For we are the people of England, that never has spoken yet.
There is many a fat farmer that drinks less cheerfully,
There is many a free French peasant who is richer and sadder than we.
There are no folk in the whole world so helpless or so wise.
There is hunger in our bellies, there is laughter in our eyes;
You laugh at us and love us, both mugs and eyes are wet:
Only you do not know us. For we have not spoken yet.

The fine French kings came over in a flutter of flags and dames.
We liked their smiles and battles, but we never could say their names.
The blood ran red to Bosworth and the high French lords went down;
There was naught but a naked people under a naked crown.
And the eyes of the King’s Servants turned terribly every way,
And the gold of the King’s Servants rose higher every day.
They burnt the homes of the shaven men, that had been quaint and kind,
Till there was no bed in a monk’s house, nor food that man could find.
The inns of God where no man paid, that were the wall of the weak,
The King’s Servants ate them all. And still we did not speak.

And the face of the King’s Servants grew greater than the King:
He tricked them, and they trapped him, and stood round him in a ring.
The new grave lords closed round him, that had eaten the abbey’s fruits,
And the men of the new religion, with their Bibles in their boots,
We saw their shoulders moving, to menace or discuss,
And some were pure and some were vile; but none took heed of us.
We saw the King as they killed him, and his face was proud and pale;
And a few men talked of freedom, while England talked of ale.

A war that we understood not came over the world and woke
Americans, Frenchmen, Irish; but we knew not the things they spoke.
They talked about rights and nature and peace and the people’s reign:
And the squires, our masters, bade us fight; and never scorned us again.
Weak if we be for ever, could none condemn us then;
Men called us serfs and drudges; men knew that we were men.
In foam and flame at Trafalgar, on Albuera plains,
We did and died like lions, to keep ourselves in chains,
We lay in living ruins; firing and fearing not
The strange fierce face of the Frenchman who knew for what he fought,
And the man who seemed to be more than man we strained against and broke;
And we broke our own rights with him. And still we never spoke.

Our path of glory ended; we never heard guns again.
But the squire seemed struck in the saddle; he was foolish, as if in pain.
He leaned on a staggering lawyer, he clutched a cringing Jew,
He was stricken; it may be, after all, he was stricken at Waterloo.
Or perhaps the shades of the shaven men, whose spoil is in his house,
Come back in shining shapes at last to spoil his last carouse:
We only know the last sad squires ride slowly towards the sea,
And a new people takes the land: and still it is not we.

They have given us into the hands of the new unhappy lords,
Lords without anger and honour, who dare not carry their swords.
They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs,
Their doors are shut in the evenings; and they know no songs.

We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet,
Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street.
It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first,
Our wrath come after Russia’s wrath and our wrath be the worst.
It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest
God’s scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best.
But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet.
Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget.”

G.K. CHESTERTON

154. Ames Gilbert - December 2, 2009

(I wrote this on Thanksgiving day as celebrated in the U.S.A.)

Today, and every day, I am thankful that I’m no longer a member of the cult called the Fellowship of Friends. I feel lucky.
Daily Cardiac and many hundred others are thankful that they are followers of Burton. They feel lucky—and special. And so they should. They believe they have been chosen by angels from nearly 7 billion doomed humans now alive to become ‘immortal’ (whatever that means). Now, that’s special!

Thank you again, DC, for laying out your belief system so directly. Anyone interested in or considering joining the Fellowship who does due diligence will appreciate your efforts, and hopefully see them as they are. Your post #86–73 could hardly be clearer; it is a catalog of your articles of faith. If anyone who has had no connection to the FoF, but is interested in that organization reads this, I’m writing this for you.
If you want to join a group of people like DC, mostly sincere, nice, well–meaning folks, but whose entire ‘spiritual’ center of gravity is based on faith, know that in advance—and accept the consequences. Look through these pages for posts by Daily Cardiac, an excellent representative of the typical follower’s point of view. Know that many of us (I dare say, probably most) who have ‘been through the mill’ have concluded that the leader, Robert Burton, is a sexual predator, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and that having sex with large numbers of the heterosexual young men who depend on him for spiritual guidance is his chief occupation, and has been for forty years. Know that if you are a young, even moderately good-looking young heterosexual male, you will most probably end up having sex with him. Know that your fellow followers will approve of this, encourage this, and the less than good-looking ones will envy you (though these are few, Burton’s tastes are very catholic). In other words, in their world–view, this is completely normal and expected. Know that he has no control in this matter, and has never demonstrated will or restraint. Know that his followers excuse and even justify this ‘supersex’ (as he terms it) because he is a ‘conscious being’.

Know also that Burton is a life–long misogynist. He has no use for women as women, unless they have money or influence. Moreover, he states that they cannot ‘awaken’ as women in this lifetime. This means that if you are a woman, you will (according to Burton) definitely have to wait for a ‘role in a future lifetime as a man’ (with the sole exception of Elizabeth I, Queen of England, for some reason) to be able to ‘awaken’, whatever that is.

If you happen to be here because you are interested in the Fourth Way, know that, apart from words freely borrowed from the Fourth Way, this cult has no connection with the Fourth Way whatsoever. The Fourth Way terms are bait, pure and simple. There has been no transmission of knowledge or energy from Alex Horn to Robert Burton. Nor was there a transmission from J.G. Bennett to Horn (whose entire experience of the Fourth Way in the direct line was as a three–week drop–in at the end of one of Bennett’s courses in England). Horn had no contact with Rodney Collin, whatever Burton claims or insinuates. The rest came from books or odd meetings with others interested in the Fourth Way. Whatever the level of Horn, Burton failed miserably to fulfill the task given to him, to cease his sexual pursuit of male fellow ‘students’. And, Burton himself is openly proud of the fact that he has never read any work of Gurdjieff. His quotes of Gurdjieff’s words come from his brief encounters with Ouspensky’s books and what he has picked up from his more organized or intellectual followers. He has yet to explain the vast gap between his being a self-proclaimed Man number 7.9, or whatever, and the next and only ‘conscious product’ of his organization, the infamous Girard Haven, official hagiographer, Man number 5 point something. Remember the Fourth Way idea that one has to help put someone in one’s place before one can ‘move on’?
As a particular example, the meaning of the word ‘verification’ has been turned on its head. As you inevitably reorient yourself to the Fellowship groupthink (your new friends are so nice, so helpful, so knowledgeable, and you are so eager to learn, to please, to fit in…), you will be persuaded that ‘testing’ hypotheses according to reason and the scientific method is faulty thinking, emanating from your ‘lower self’. Instead the major part of your ‘work’ is to first accept given/revealed articles of faith as true and then strive to find evidence for them. Failing that, you are to ‘observe and record’ and put any doubting thoughts ‘on the back burner’, or, as you become more advanced, dispense with them altogether because they are generated by your ‘lower self’. When the back burner is full, you will be kept so busy you won’t notice the older thoughts ‘to be worked with later’ permanently falling into oblivion. Know that the many general ‘exercises’ given out by Burton are a miraculous one–size fits all. Any individual attention that each follower may need is farmed out to one or other of the 44 angels, the discorporate remains of (mostly) white, male Europeans who have left a historical record. More than strange, huh? Almost all the personal exercises given by Dear Teacher are of the “C-Influence wishes you to internally consider me, give up your body for my pleasure’ type. Though, for variety, there are the never–ending requests for more money, gifts, favors of all kinds, or ‘You should marry this person or that’.

Know that Burton is probably the most superstitious person you will ever hear of or meet. This ‘conscious being’, having lost his own internal way, relies on external signs of every type, from chance license plate numbers to a grotesque numerology and symbology, whose significance is supported and ‘researched’ by the members themselves, and as stated above, always seeking ‘proof’ to support the pre–conceptions. One example among literally thousands: Burton interprets the number of rhino poops in prehistoric cave drawings as messages the artists intentionally left for him across tens of centuries! Based on this rare sensitivity, Burton continually makes prophecies, whose record of complete failure (including doozies such as the drowning of California in 1996, nuclear Armageddon in 2006, the production of seven ‘conscious beings’, and so on) he petulantly explains in terms such as, “C–Influence has humiliated me”. At the same time, mirabile dictu, Burton claims that every jot and title of existence is preordained, a ‘play written by the angels’. In his universe, he supplies the ‘crazy’ while his followers infer the ‘wisdom’, so all in the narcissistic dance are happy. Oh, and you’ll be glad he has made improvements to the Fourth Way apart from inventing angels whose sole welfare is those who write checks to Burton, and who will attend the complete destruction of the rest of humanity. For example, unlike Gurdjieff, Ouspensky or Bennett in whose teachings conscience is as important as, and inseparable from, consciousness, Burton has little use for the former. In fact he says, “Conscience is just a collection of I’s. Anyone accumulating too much should leave the school”. One less thing to worry about, huh? And as strong an indicator as any that he doesn’t have conscience—and hence, consciousness—himself.

If you indeed value the Fourth Way, then before you consider joining the Fellowship of Friends, you owe it to yourself to find out everything you can about them. There is much more in these pages and elsewhere. I know, it is quite an effort to go through them. But the time you invest doing this is miniscule compared to the time you will waste and the harm that may befall you. I’m not claiming you will learn nothing, just that you can achieve better results in far less time elsewhere, without paying the price the greedy and literally insatiable Burton demands.

So much for the Fourth Way. How about the Second Way? If you take a masochistic satisfaction in being told what to do in all areas of your life, have blind trust in authoritarian structures, have faith in revealed truths, and desperately need to cultivate obedience, you’ll certainly be interested in some form of the Second Way. But why not just join the Carthusians or some other group with a good record? For a start, they are much quicker and more efficient. You have the possibility of reaching salvation during or at the end of this lifetime. Not so Burton’s religion. He claims you will need many lifetimes of unremitting toil and devotion to counter your built–in weaknesses and achieve immortality. Meanwhile, Mr. “Do as I say, not as I do” trusts not to the future, but lives the life of a spoiled potentate right now. He will use your money to live luxuriously. He may use your body for his sexual pleasure. He will travel widely at your expense. He will dress in the finest and most expensive clothing, silken underwear, drink wine worth hundreds of dollars at every meal, drive the best cars, travel first class everywhere, and give rich gifts to his lovers—while he favors them—all from your earnings. His followers exist to hang on every word, gratify every whim, and worship him as “the brightest light in 2,000 years. Not so incidentally, he is ‘beyond Judeo–Christian morality’ (though he has yet to formulate a successor).

Why would you want to dive into the fantasy world of this twisted, lying madman, who seems to exist solely for the titillation of the nerve endings in his penis and anus—and for shopping? Rather, go join an order of nuns or monks. If you are interested in experiencing the state popularly known as consciousness, study Zen or become a Buddhist.

Otherwise, stick around back here with the rest of us and try to do the best you can for yourself and your fellow humans with love and integrity, living life in all its juicy mess, ups and downs, accepting the need for risks, facing the unknown and unknowable with all the courage you can muster.

155. James Mclemore - December 2, 2009

Great post Ames.

Since DC said he is appreciative of the blog, as it may help to weed out the people who wouldn’t stay in the FoF / Pathway to Presence anyway, maybe he could get the inner circle to recommend reading your post at all the prospective student meetings.

156. Ames Gilbert - December 2, 2009

Thanks, James, I try to spread sweetness and light wherever I can.
This is a win–win situation, everyone is a winner,
You are happy, I am happy, and Daily Cardiac is happy. DC is happy because, as he states, it should be even more evident to a seeker which is (as he puts it) the more ‘spiritual’: Ames being his deluded, obnoxious self, or the wonderfully inspiring words of the Pathway to Presence website. DC claims the sincere seeker will naturally be attracted to the obviously more ‘spiritual’ Fellowship of Friends portal, and just as naturally be repelled by the warnings and lower–self mumblings of one such as I. How fortunate it is, also, that the sincere seeker after truth, alert and discriminating, will ‘judge the book by its cover’. And it is such a pretty cover!

So be it, Daily Cardiac, so be it. Apparently this little part of the play was written anyway, pre–ordained since the beginning of time. I’m sure the 44 are rejoicing. And I’m sincerely glad you’re happy.
You can look forward to more.

157. Yesri Baba - December 2, 2009

“In his universe, he supplies the ‘crazy’ while his followers infer the ‘wisdom’”

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

158. nige - December 2, 2009

Just had to add this copy and paste from an email to my friend/art mentor in Pacifica, to explain why I am in ‘pissed-offwith-greed-tramp-and-power’ mode to the extent of going hpo-manic in Cause Celebre…..Nigel.

Dear George,

First, not to complain, my students and I had a wonderful exhibition. We more than doubled on last year’s sales figures (our total was just under £1200) and the whole show was socially and artistically appreciated. My GP even bought some jewellery for his wife and wants to do some commercial photography on a select number of pieces that we have produced (with his mega-size/mega-expensive camera)…..

But guess what happened when I gave facts-and-figures of our success to the Redearth Studios landlord and his wife. First of all, the wife had received, into her bank, all the Credit/Debit Card transactions/sales money, then decided to totally screw up my carefully managed financial system, whereby the students would be individually paid on card sales and has lumped the whole thing together, and is going to subtract all my outstanding business obligations (show expenses for the gallery and a long-outstanding bill for my electricity in the workshop, for which I had been asking for the bill for ages) and then give me a cheque (probably for a piffling amount) as the balance. Now I have to deal with her totally, head you-know-where money mismanagement. And, to top it all, Steve, the landlord, has decided that there will no longer be free gallery space for a week, when the workshop lease has been paid for a year. “In tenebris lux” – “and the light was in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.”…..

So, you, as my spiritual mentor, must understand that I have had to grow in response to the slogan of my (The Co-operative) bank – “good with money”. Being careful and precise in my money affairs has been like having an ‘almighty reality check’ in my life. Big joke, huh! Having the surname of Price and also having money as the biggest problem in my life. I am going to seek sound advice from my dad, who knows that the ‘Field of Dreams’ of our little jewellery school is a worthy cause…..

Bless you, George, and the gentle touch of your mighty, human heart…..Nigel.

159. nige - December 2, 2009

This beautiful power/harmony duet is so moving for me and that is the Christmas Message, that God became Man and dwelt among us. Hope the link works…..Nigel.

160. nige - December 3, 2009

Ames, again, my powerful passive one…..

Remember how the saying went – “Bring you life into the School”? May I bring my life into the blog-work? I have a relatively new Lunar-Venusian pub friend, Mike Reynolds, (whose name would seem to correspond with something to do with ‘kings’ in the French translation) who is the most brilliant exponent of popular music – he does unpaid hosting on Exeter FM radio on a Sunday afternoon. We talk and powerfully reminisce about our memories of late-20th Century music and he has ‘raised me up’ out of today’s Nadir of a psycho/physical nature. May my life support everything we are powerfully trying to do on the FOF Discussion Blogsite…..Nigel.

161. ton - December 3, 2009

When looked at closely
The familiar is just as strange
As the unfamiliar

thank you james

162. Anon E. Mouse - December 3, 2009

Not a creature was stirring, except Mr. Mouse.
Happy Birthday Jesus.
Merry Christmas to All.

163. Anon E. Mouse - December 3, 2009

Thanks for the reminder, Nige.

164. WhaleRider - December 4, 2009

Welcome back, FOFion. I missed you.

Nige, may I suggest you post your messages to Elena to her blog where she has a chance to respond? That would be more appropriate. They are a bit of a show stopper here.

165. nige - December 4, 2009

DICTATE 04 OF DECEMBER 2009…..

“ASSUME A ROLE AND IT WILL BECOME YOU AND YOU WILL BECOME IT”

166. nige - December 4, 2009

FRONDES AGRESTES
By Ruskin

Section 1

4.
Had it been ordained by the Almighty that the highest pleasures of sight should be those of most difficult attainment, and that to arrive at them it should be necessary to accumulate GILDED PALACES, tower over tower, and pile ARTIFICIAL MOUNTAINS AROUND INSINUATED LAKES, there would never have been a direct contradiction between the unselfish duties and the inherent desires of every individual. But no such contradiction exists in the system of Divine Providence; which, leaving it open to us, if we will, as creatures in probation, TO ABUSE THIS SENSE LIKE ANY OTHER, and pamper it with SELFISH AND THOUGHTLESS VANITIES, as we pamper the palate with deadly meats, until THE APPETITE OF TASTEFUL CRUELTY is lost in its sickened satiety, incapable of pleasures unless, CALIGULA LIKE, it concentrates the labour of a million lives into the sensation of an hour, – leaves it open to us, BY HUMBLE AND LOVING WAYS, to make ourselves susceptible of deep delight, WHICH SHALL NOT SEPARATE US FROM OUR FELLOWS, nor require the sacrifice of ANY DUTY OR OCCUPATION, but shall bind us closer to men and to God, and be with us always, HARMONISED WITH EVERY ACTION, CONSISTENT WITH EVERY CLAIM, UNCHANGING AND ETERNAL.

167. Anon E. Mouse - December 4, 2009

It is a very short drive to bonkers indeed.

168. Anon E. Mouse - December 4, 2009

To quote the most recent manifestation:
“God is not kind,
He is an Ocean of Mercy.”

169. Argh - December 4, 2009

Argh.

Please.

170. fofblogmoderator - December 4, 2009

Due to the fact the Nigel has posted 18 posts in 1 day I have taken the liberty of removing them and I have them saved in my personal archives in case anyone wants to view them.

Nigel, I feel that you have infringed upon the “taking up too much space” policy that seems to work well for maintaining contribution balance. Since you have been warned in the past about your once-in-awhile voluminous contributions, and, since I anticipate a reaction that will have nothing to do with the intent of the blog, I think it’s best if you take a week off.

Sometimes I don’t enjoy being the “moderator” at all.

171. James Mclemore - December 4, 2009

170. fofblogmoderator

“Sometimes I don’t enjoy being the “moderator” at all.”

Boy oh Boy!! That is understandable. I am sure I would feel the same. For what it is worth I respect and support your move.

172. Bares Reposting - December 4, 2009

Thank you fofblogmoderator. Nige had gone overboard. Keep up the good work.

Good holidays to all.

173. Another name - December 5, 2009

Hello all,

When I hear daily cardiac, I hear admiration towards Burton. Just found a definition from Phil Laut in Money is my friend (excellent, practical book BTW).

Admiration:

The biggest form of apathy. Admiration is inactive.You can admire someone for ever and it will never do you a bit of good.

Mmmm sound like a familiar trap in the fellowship of friends?

174. Daily Cardiac - December 5, 2009

Recently its been suggested that I’m attempting to commandeer the blog by trying to reduce all comments to the level of “opinion.” That being the claim perhaps a little clarification is in order.

What I meant in recent posts is simply this. The blog is not set up to be a proving ground; inherently it is not capable of proving any of its conclusions and this is the case for blogs in general. As such the information posted on blogs remains, for most readers, on the level of opinion. That is not to say truth cannot be posted or introduced on blogs. Obviously truth can appear almost anywhere, on blogs, in advertisements, novels, newspapers, etc.

It’s just that on blogs there are no concrete indicators of truth, no obvious or formal separators of truth from falsehood. And when that is the case the findings, by default, remain on the level of opinion; only to be correctly perceived as one or the other, truth or falsehood, by those who first of all are actually seeking truth and, secondly, are able to ascertain the difference by their own personal methods of deduction or perception.

Those who are seeking truth above all else, especially above any personal agenda, or attitude, are those most likely to recognize it when they encounter it. Those who are protecting or promoting a personal agenda or have a strong bias for or against some organization, person or place, are the least likely to recognize truth when exposed to it for the simple reason that they are not seeking truth to begin with. They are actually seeking to protect the bias or agenda. In that case when truth is encountered, if it opposes their present viewpoints, biases, attitudes, they will label it falsehood, and when falsehood is encountered, if it supports the bias or personal agendas they will label it truth.

It should also be noted that personal agendas and truth are not mutually exclusive. A personal agenda can be equally affiliated with truth or with falsehood. This fact just adds more complexity to the matter.

In the case of this FoF “discussion” forum there are at least three conditions not being met which would allow a closer proximity to a place where truth can be distinguished from falsehood.

1) First of all, the highest system known to man by which proof can be established with any degree of accuracy or surety is the system of Due Process, which most civilized nations honor as their legal and judicial standard. Due Process is constructed and designed to draw out truth, and as such is a separator of truth from falsehood. Several conditions make this possible, none of which are instituted on a blog. In Due Process everything hinges on fairness and equality of rights for both parties. There are deterrents in place to inhibit lying by either side; such as being punished for acts of perjury. Accusers and the accused must equally submit to professionally administered methods of interrogation, and evidence gathering, and many other related conditions.

Blogs have none of these indicators or separators in place as it is not the intent of blogs to enforce Due Process. Blogs are forums for discussion, for sharing information, opinion. And that information in most cases consists of several components – truths, half truths and falsehoods, to name a few – which are often indistinguishable from each other even to those sincere seekers of truth. Information found on blogs can be submitted by those whose only aim is to obscure truth as well as those whose aim is to reveal it. And there are no checks or balances in place on blogs to separate one group from the other.

Lastly, blogs more often than not, allow anonymous submissions which can be the single largest factor that inhibits truth and encourages lies; because under the protection of anonymity no one can be held accountable for their statements, as the statements cannot be connected to the authors in any way short of a legal suppenor. It is easily verified that anonymity encourages extremism. Outlaws wear masks for a reason. However the Lone Ranger also wore a mask so I’m not condemning anonymity across the board; sometimes it’s necessary for one’s own safety. But it is a fact that most of the vile statements I receive are from anonymous posters. One can hardly imagine that these same individuals would engage in this behavior in the environment where they are employed or in face to face group encounters.

2) Secondly, the above conditions which render proof largely inaccessible would apply to most blogs; such as a political blog that evaluates the performances of congressmen or senators, or a blog that attempts to determine which team should be rated number one. But when the spiritual element is added; in this case, when the attempt is made to discredit an organization that proclaims itself to be spiritually based, then the probability of arriving at conclusive proof becomes next to impossible to carry out.

The reasons for this are obvious. Basically no one can determine what constitutes a spiritual or religious experience for another person. People have claimed to see spirits before, or to be instructed by spirits, while another person exposed to the same circumstances did not see or was not instructed by anything. So, the one not seeing or not instructed can only know they did not see or were not instructed, but they cannot know what another person may have seen or understood. They can only surmise, or conclude, but they cannot know or prove. And their conclusions, perceptions or guesses may be either correct or incorrect, just like the flip of a coin has a 50% chance of ending up heads or tails.

The main reason why producing proof in spiritual matters is impossible is because proof of the existence of spirit matter or the spirit world has never been proven or disproved. It has only been felt / intuited by some individuals and not felt / intuited by others.

On the Fellowship blog ex members are attempting to invalidate the organization by more or less saying that since they did not experience higher states or experienced a change in their overall level of consciousness, or have not verified any of the basic principles the FoF practices; such as the principle that the “play is written” then no one else can claim to have experienced those states or understandings or verifications. And they are bundling this premise up with the issue of the leader’s private lifestyle; holding up a western, puritanical morality as the fulcrum of all moralities. And to top everything off, they are tidying up their position by misunderstanding basic definitions of sexual abuse or abuse of power while additionally claiming to know the intent or motivations of RB, or the state of mind of his sexual partners when it is clearly impossible to know such things with any certainty. If someone reading could describe in detail the shirt I’m wearing while writing this I might be inclined to believe they know my reality.

3) The third condition which inhibits truth and renders proof inaccessible is the make up of the blog; the fact it is populated exclusively by ex members (except myself for the time being) who’s stated mission is to do whatever is in their power to hasten the demise of the FoF. Whenever this dynamic is in play there can be little hope for any balanced discussion or even handed evaluation or critique. Whenever a group of like minded individuals with a stated aim to discredit an organization work towards that aim there is little chance of fair and even reporting, and the conclusions will be more than likely slanted towards the stated aim. In situations like this lying becomes second nature because there is much at stake and because a preconceived belief (of guilt) has already been formulated.

I will say it clearly – I have no intention of steering the blog in any direction other than where it has ventured so far on its own. I believe it will always default to repeating the same information it has been repeating for the last 2.5 years. It’s not my intent to change that because I believe the comments posted here by ex members actually aids the FoF in several ways.

Schools are for reasonable people and when ex members foster unreasonable claims, like knowing the realities of others they have never met, or of the functioning of an organization they have not belonged to for 15 or 20 years, then it will cause reason to be attracted to those same endeavors the unreasonable mind opposes. This is how reason deduces. If anything my postings have clearly illustrated that ex members have no intentions of taking up the challenge and having a civil and legitimate two way discussion regarding the inconsistencies, gaps and improbabilities found in their statements and contentions. And since Truth welcomes such discussions their avoidance of the same is the most telling of all realities.

175. Dr. Pangloss - December 5, 2009

“Lastly, blogs more often than not, allow anonymous submissions which can be the single largest factor that inhibits truth and encourages lies; because under the protection of anonymity no one can be held accountable for their statements, as the statements cannot be connected to the authors in any way short of a legal suppenor.”

Yes, indeed! This bit of wisdom submitted by someone named Daily Cardiac, no doubt his legal name. What the fuck is a suppenor?
Sorry I didn’t read the rest of the post because it was such a boring repetitive lie from an anonymous author who cannot be held accountable for being a doofus.

176. James Mclemore - December 5, 2009

DC –

Are you o.k.? As I was reading I wondered if perhaps you were not feeling well. It felt like you had lost a bit of your edge or something. I’m afraid this last post is just really sub-standard.

I did enjoy, “Outlaws wear masks for a reason. However the Lone Ranger also wore a mask so I’m not condemning anonymity across the board”
Now that is some profound yet practical information that a person can make use of in their daily life.

But seriously, if I was you I would consider having the blogmoderator just delete that post and then perhaps try again in a couple of days if you are feeling better.

177. Yesri Baba - December 5, 2009

“…or the state of mind of his sexual partners when it is clearly impossible to know such things with any certainty.”

Shit! you idiot! Some of these posters we’re his ‘sexual partners’ and i am pretty fucking sure they know what their state of mind was! In fact some have described exactly what their state of mind was. Go fuck yourself, you fucking …..

178. Yesri Baba - December 5, 2009

“What the fuck is a suppenor?”

The mexican cock butthole bob sucks before dinner.

179. ton - December 5, 2009

another name 173

what dc represents here goes way beyond admiration and apathy…
dc has some serious psychological “issues.”

i do think there can be a link between imitation and apathy when a person is unduly, overtly and overly influenced by another as is the case of dc/burton… in this case there will be a form of mindless imitation of the object of admiration. i agree that when admiration becomes a form of “doting” or “hero worship” it’s an unbalanced, regressive condition.

Another Name, if i sense correctly what you had in mind in your post, a good example is a prevalent form of buffoonery in the fof which involved adopting the mannerisms, thought and speech patterns of burton. this imitation of a so-called “conscious being” was mindless mimicry that indicated nothing so much as the lack of individuality in the imitators. it was a form of apathy to the extent that it required nothing more than mindless imitation…. and where does that get you? stuck in a cult “flattering” burton (you know what they say about imitation being a form of flattery). luckily for some of us, we grew out of that phase.

of “admiration” i would say more generally that there can be healthy forms. admiration is the recognition and acknowledgment of attributes or qualities in another. this recognition can lead to aspiring to achieve an admirable quality… to qualify this, in the case of a criminal mentality for example, one might admire certain negative qualities in another such as cunning and ruthlessness.

admiration can lead to emulation which represents positive learning in the case wherein it is the POSITIVE qualities of another are those admired and emulated. i think emulation is different than imitation; emulation might be thought of as recognition of positive qualities in another and then transforming of an admirable quality to make it part of one’s own individuality. transforming the admired quality makes it uniquely individual and something more than the parroting or mimicry which is imitation.

as an educator, i’ve studied many theories of childhood/human development, most of which include discussions regarding a phase of development wherein the young child learns primarily through imitating adults and older children. as we grow out of childhood, our inner world / individuality is strengthened and formed to the point where imitation is no longer the primary means of learning — but then of course some folks never grow up.

experiencing a later phase of imitation might be thought of as representing a regression to the earlier childhood phase. in regards to growing-up and developmental phases, the “typically” developing child moves from the imitation phase (ages about 1-7 yrs), to the next stage wherein cognitive/conceptualizing abilities come to the fore and individualized volitional forces replace imitation… the child is now becoming more of an individual and less a simple reflection of the surrounding human environment.

dc is an example of the fact that although a person may reach adulthood, they never really grow up. getting beyond unconscious regression to the imitation phase is a predominant obstacle to a more fully realized individuality. the key word in this case “unconscious” — that is that the person who suffers from regression does not realize it.

with the clarity that hindsight provides, i can say it helps to remove oneself from the situation in which undue influence is exercised by burtonism and the cult, then one is forced to think and act more as an individual. apparently some folks don’t feel the need to further develop their individuality, they are content to “rest easy” in the thrall, an existence of intellectual and moral bondage, a state in which the cultist lives unaware, a state which to the outside observer really appears pitiful and pathetic.

in the case of an example like dc i wouldn’t say that apathy really describes what is going on, at least not here on the blog…. dc actually seems to be very busy with and cares about “the cause” (read: his agenda). what dc demonstrates is a form of zealotry…. dc is a prime example of the blinding and unbalanced state experienced by those under the influence of a type of religious mania. there is the psychological dynamic to consider in this case which involves the unbalancing influence of the relationship that exists in the “guru/disciple” complex or as it’s put here, the narcissist/codependent relationship:

“Codependent, enabler, follower, covert narcissist, inverted narcissist, co-narcissist… The terms ‘codependent’, ‘enabler’, ‘follower’, ‘covert narcissist’ ‘inverted narcissist’ and co-narcissist are used interchangeably in respect of people who are emotionally dependent on narcissists. Narcissists surround themselves with codependents etc as they tend to work beyond healthy (and sometimes ethical) limits to do whatever the narcissist needs. Narcissists crave power and codependents etc crave security, so they are drawn to one another. Often, the same person displays both narcissistic and codependency (co-narcissistic) behaviors, depending on circumstances. Both narcissists and codependents tend to assume that in any interpersonal interaction one person is narcissistic and the other codependent, and often can play either part.”

http://www.winning-teams.com/definitions.html

180. ton - December 5, 2009

to correct some of the typos in my previous post:

admiration can lead to emulation which represents positive learning when the POSITIVE qualities of another are those admired and emulated…. etc

and…

re: DC — one of the psychological issues dc struggles with is psychological projection. in her own words, why she can’t recognize truth:

“Those who are protecting or promoting a personal agenda or have a strong bias for or against some organization, person or place, are the least likely to recognize truth when exposed to it… They are actually seeking to protect the bias or agenda. In that case when truth is encountered, if it opposes their present viewpoints, biases, attitudes, they will label it falsehood, and when falsehood is encountered, if it supports the bias or personal agendas they will label it truth.”

projection as a defense mechanism that protects this lost soul from realizing her own mis-perceptions and self-deceptions…

“Projection is considered one of the most profound and subtle of human psychological processes, and extremely difficult to work with, because by its nature it is hidden. It is the fundamental mechanism by which we keep ourselves uninformed about ourselves.

In classical psychology, projection is always seen as a defense mechanism that occurs when a person’s own unacceptable or threatening feelings are repressed and then attributed to someone else…”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

181. Anon E. Mouse - December 5, 2009

ton/179
“Around the age of 8, boys begin imitating men, and continue to do so for the rest of their lives”.
Mark Twain
Or something like that, look it up yourselves.
Ladies, I am sure you will agree.

182. Another name - December 5, 2009

Tone writes :

of “admiration” i would say more generally that there can be healthy forms. admiration is the recognition and acknowledgment of attributes or qualities in another. this recognition can lead to aspiring to achieve an admirable quality… to qualify this, in the case of a criminal mentality for example, one might admire certain negative qualities in another such as cunning and ruthlessness.

Dear Ton

Thanks also about Projection. Very informative.

Coming back to admiration as you described I would formulate it as follows This is respect , acknowledging a quality that one could desire and tries to incorporate this. Instead of “admiring in passivity.

When I read DC, I hear so many words and I miss the emotions, the feeling behind the words.
Awareness of our emotions will give us choices based on the moment, instead of acting from patterns, which in the fellowship of friends was called “sleep”.

Patterns covers up ourselves and our awareness. This was the idea in fellowship, the aim. To become conscious, respond from the moment and be fully aware.

This too means to be aware of old patterns acquired from childhood even something to early infancy or birth or pre- birth.

Big flaw in the fellowship. Never addressed, was not useful.

Ton I heard you read so much. Did you read Alice Miller? For your own good. In this book she based on her 20 or more years of working with clients, she describes 3 cases and the history of pedagogy in the last 200 years in Europe.

One of the most shocking parts of this books is that she describes Hitler’s ancestry and upbringing. In the end she has a short chapter on Hitler’s erotic life. One strange observation she made is that Hitler got aroused by having women urinate on him, and he is laying down on the ground………..This is similar to Robert although he seemed to add feces….

For me knowing what I know now, I feel and conclude by reading the book from Alice Miller, that Robert has been abused, molested on a very early age. Robert never has addressed this pain or grieved or worked this out into his awareness. His sexual addiction like many with sexual addiction is related to sexual abuse in his own childhood. Speaking about projection.

DC put this in your heart and dare to live this information instead of rationalization. I wish you courage.

183. The FOFion - December 5, 2009

Bloggers Focus on Robert Burton’s Deceit and Illness, Overcome Distractions, and Provide Pertinent Information about FOF

NEW YORK (ARK) — Hopefully…

184. The FOFion - December 5, 2009

Readers of Blog Focus on Posts by Ames, Ton, James, Whalerider, and Other Similarly Informative and Pertinent Comments

NEW YORK (ARK) — Hopefully…

185. WhaleRider - December 5, 2009

Recently it’s been suggested that I’m attempting to commandeer the CULT by trying to reduce all DISSENT to the level of “opinion.”

That being the claim, perhaps a SHITLOAD OF RATIONALIZATION is in order.

What I meant in recent posts is simply this: the CULT is not set up to be a proving ground; inherently it is not capable of proving any of its conclusions and this is the case for CULTS in general.

As such the information given in CULTS remains, for most FOLLOWERS, on the level of AUTHORITARIAN opinion THEY HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO FOLLOW.

That is to say Truth cannot be introduced in CULTS, OTHERWISE FOLLOWERS WOULD LEAVE, AS MANY HAVE OVER THE YEARS.

Obviously Truth AND FALSEHOOD can appear almost anywhere, in CULTS, in advertisements, novels, and newspapers, etc. SO WHAT?

It’s just that in CULTS there are no concrete indicators of Truth, no obvious or formal separators of Truth from falsehood, OTHER THAN WHAT THE CULT LEADER SAYS TO BE TRUE.

And when that is the case, the findings and EXPERIENCES OF ALL EX-FOLLOWERS, by default, remain on the level of opinion; only to be incorrectly perceived as one or the other, Truth or falsehood, by those FOLLOWERS who first of all are actually HIDING FROM THE Truth and, secondly, AS FALSEHOOD BY THOSE FOLLOWERS who are unable to ascertain the difference by their own personal methods of deduction or perception DUE TO THEIR CO-DEPENDENCY.

Those who are seeking Truth above all else, especially above anybody else’s personal SEXUAL agenda, or NARCISSISTIC attitude, are those most likely to recognize FALSEHOOD when they encounter FALSEHOOD.

Those who are protecting or promoting AN AUTHORITY FIGURE’S personal sexual agenda or have a strong bias for or against OTHER CULTS, GURUS OR EX-FOLLOWERS, are the least likely to recognize Truth when exposed to it for the simple reason that they are not seeking Truth OR FREEDOM to begin with BUT MORE CO-DEPENDENCY.

They are actually UNCONSCIOUSLY seeking to protect the bias or agenda OF THE CULT LEADER.

In the case when Truth is encountered, if it opposes the CULT’S present viewpoints, biases, attitudes, CULT LEADERS will label it falsehood, and when falsehood is encountered, if it supports the bias or personal agendas THE CULT LEADER will label it Truth, EVEN WHEN IT IS CLEARLY NOT.

It should also be noted that personal agendas and Truth ARE mutually exclusive, SUCH IS THE FALLACY OF MAN’S REASON.

A personal agenda can RARELY be affiliated with Truth, BUT MORE THAN LIKELY with SELF-INTEREST and falsehood.

This fact just adds more complexity AND CONFUSON to the matter, ESPECIALLY IN CULTS.

In the case of the LACK OF ANY MEANINGFUL, OPEN FOF “discussion” WITHIN THE CULT there are at least three conditions being met which would not allow a closer proximity to a place where Truth can be distinguished from falsehood.

1) First of all, the highest system known to man by which proof can be established with any degree of accuracy or surety is the system of Due Process, which most civilized nations honor as their legal and judicial standard AND TO WHICH AUTHORITARIAN CULTS ARE EXEMPT.

Due Process is constructed and designed to draw out Truth, and as such is a separator of Truth from falsehood, WHICH IS WHY CULTS DON’T USE IT. WE SETTLE OUT OF COURT FOR HUGE SUMS OF MONEY.

Several conditions make DUE PROCESS possible, none of which are instituted in a CULT.

In Due Process everything hinges on fairness and equality of rights for both parties, BUT OF COURSE IN CULTS THERE IS IN INHERENT IMBALANCE OF POWER BETWEEN LEADER AND FOLLOWER.

There are deterrents in place to inhibit lying by either side; such as being punished for acts of perjury, WHICH IS WHY I MUST HIDE BEHIND MY “OPINIONS”.

Accusers and the accused must equally submit to professionally administered methods of interrogation, and evidence gathering, and many other related conditions, OF WHICH OUR CULT LEADER IS ABOVE.

CULTS have none of these indicators or separators in place as it is not the intent of CULTS to enforce Due Process, but TO ENFORCE A HIERARCHICAL AUTHORTIARIAN STRUCTURE.

CULTS ARE NOT forums for discussion, for sharing information, opinion, either.

MISinformation SHARED IN CULTS in most cases consists of several components – truths, half truths and falsehoods AND PURE BULLSHIT, to name a few – which are often distinguishable from each other BY THOSE WITH HEALTHY SELF-ESTEEM.

The MISinformation found in most CULTS IS OFTEN DISEMINATED by those whose only aim is to obscure truth AND SILENCE those whose aim is to reveal THE FALSEHOOD.

And there are RIDGID checks and balances in place within CULTS to separate one group from the other, DISSENT IS NOT ALLOWED.

Lastly, CULTS more often than not, DO NOT allow anonymous submissions OF DISSENT which can be the single largest factor that inhibits SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER and encourages GROUPTHINK; because under the protection of anonymity no one can be held accountable for their statements AND BE FORCED OUT OF THE CULT, as the statements cannot be connected to the authors.

It is easily verified that anonymity encourages SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER, SUCH IS THE CASE WITH MASKED COURT JESTERS AND MIMES IN ROMAN TIMES WHO COULD HAVE BEEN EXECUTED FOR “VOICING” THEIR DISSENT.

CULT LEADERS ALSO MUST wear masks for a reason: IT ENCOURAGES THE PROCESS OF PROJECTION BY FOLLOWERS.

However, the whistleblower DEEPTHROAT also wore a mask so I’m not condemning anonymity across the board; sometimes it’s necessary to protect one’s own privacy.

But it is a fact that ALL OF MY RATIONALIZATIONS THAT I POST are from MY anonymous NAME, DAILY CARDIAC. WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE IS THAT? WHAT AM I HIDING?

One can imagine one day that these BRAVE individuals would engage in SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER in the CULT environment where they ONCE were employed AS SLAVES or in face to face group encounters WITH THE CULT LEADER…BUT OF COURSE THE CULT LEADER WOULD NEVER ALLOW IT.

2) Secondly, the above conditions which render proof largely BURIED and inaccessible would apply to most CULTS; such as a political WATCHDOG GROUP that evaluates the performances of POWERFUL, RICH congressmen or BUSINESSMEN WHO CONTROL THE MEDIA…or in the case where a particular CULT attempts to determine which CULT should be rated number one.

But when the spiritual element is added; in this case, when the attempt is BEING made to discredit OUR organization that FRAUDULENTLY proclaims itself to be spiritually based, then the probability of arriving at conclusive proof ONE WAY OR ANTOHER becomes next to impossible to carry out, LUCKY FOR US, AND THUS OUR CULT SURVIVES, SINCE THE BOYS WERE MOSTLY OVER THE AGE OF 18.

The reasons for this are obvious. Basically THE LOOPHOLE WE EXPLOIT IN CULTS is that no one can determine what constitutes a spiritual or religious experience for another person, EXCEPT ONLY BY OUR CULT LEADER ALONE.

PSYCHOTIC people have claimed to see spirits before, or to be instructed by spirits, while a HEALTHY, WELL-ADJUSTED person exposed to the same circumstances did not see or was not instructed by anything OR ANYONE.

So, the one not seeing SPIIRITS HOVERING OVER THE DINNER TABLE or not instructed TO VERIFABRICATE THE SPIRITS IN THE FIRST PLACE can only know they did not see or were not instructed, but they cannot know what a PSYCHOTIC person may have seen or understood UNLESS THEY ARE A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL WITH FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE.

CULT LEADERS AND THEIR FOLLOWERS can only surmise, or conclude, but they cannot know or prove anything, SO THEY ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO COLLUDE WITH THEIR DELUSIONS THROUGH THE PROCESSS OF VERIFABRICATION.

And ANYONE’S conclusions, perceptions or guesses or FIRST HAND EXPEREINCES are either correct or incorrect, BUT PERSONALLY I LIKE TO FLIP A COIN AND LET CHANCE DECIDE FOR ME…OR I LET MY CULT LEADER DO IT FOR ME.

The main reason why producing proof in spiritual matters is impossible is because proof of the existence of spirit matter or the spirit world has never been proven or disproved. It has only been felt / intuited / or HALLUCINATED by some IMMATURE, SUPERSTITIOUS individuals and is not felt / intuited by MOST others IN THE WAY WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO DO.

In the Fellowship CULT, FOLLOWERS attempt to invalidate others by more or less saying that since OTHERS did not experience higher states or experienced a change in their overall level of consciousness, or have not VERIFABRICATED any of the basic principles the FOF CULT practices; such as the principle that the “play is ONLY written BY THE CULT LEADER” then no one else can claim to have experienced those states, MISunderstandings, or VERIFABRICATIONS, BUT THE LEADER AND FOLLOWERS IN THE ‘CLOSED’ DELUSIONAL SYSTEM.

EX-FOLLOWERS are bundling up the premise OF FRAUD with the issue of the leader’s PERVERTED SEXUAL lifestyle AND NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER; holding up a western, RATIONAL, MEDICAL, and ETHICAL, morality as the fulcrum of all moralities.

And to top everything off, they are tidying up their position by misunderstanding basic definitions of sexual abuse or abuse of power while additionally claiming to UNDERSTAND the intent or motivations of ROBERT E. BURTON’S PREDATORY BEHAVOIR, or the state of mind of his DRUNK sexual PARTNERS HE EXPLOITED…when it is clearly POSSIBLE to FEEL / INTUIT such things with AMAZING certainty.

If someone reading could describe in detail the shirt I’m wearing while writing this I might be inclined to believe they know my reality.

((THAT IS TOO EASY: YOU AREN’T WEARING ANY CLOTHES AT ALL.))

3) The third condition which inhibits truth and renders proof inaccessible is the make up of the CULT; the fact it is populated exclusively by ARDENT FOLLOWERS (INCLUDING myself for the time being) who’s stated mission is to do whatever is in their power to KEEP RECUTING FOR THE CULT TO KEEP IT GOING SO THEY KEEP THEIR JOB.

Whenever this dynamic is in play there can be little hope for any balanced discussion or even handed evaluation or critique.

Whenever a group of like minded individuals with a stated aim to USE an organization to work towards the aim OF THEIR OWN FINANCIAL SELF-INTEREST there is little chance of fair and even reporting, and the conclusions will be more than likely slanted towards the stated aim.

In situations like this lying becomes second nature because there is much at stake and because a preconceived belief (of guilt) has already been formulated.

I will say it clearly – I have no intention of steering MY THINKING in any direction other than where I HAVE BEEN INDOCTRINATED TO THINK.

I believe OUR CULT will always default to repeating the same information it has been repeating for the last 36 years.

It’s not my intent to change because I CANNOT, I AM IN WAY TOO DEEP…EVEN THOUGH OTHERS ARE THANKFUL THAT MY comments posted here actually DISSUADE ANYONE CONSIDERING JOINING OUR CULT OR ANY OTHER.

Preschools are for IMMATURE people, and when FOLLOWERS foster unreasonable claims, like knowing the realities of others they have never met, or function in an CULT for 15, 20, or 35 years, then it will cause reason to be attracted to those same endeavors the unreasonable mind opposes, WHATEVER THAT MEANS.

This is how CULT reason deduces.

If anything my postings have clearly illustrated that AN ARDENT FOLLOWER SUCH AS MYSELF has no intentions of taking up the challenge and having a civil and legitimate two way discussion regarding the HUGE GLARING inconsistencies, gaps and improbabilities found in OUR CULT LEADER’S BEHAVIOR AND CLAIMS.

And since Truth welcomes such discussions their avoidance of the same is the most telling of all realities.

Checkmate.

186. James Mclemore - December 5, 2009

I really think DC is starting to lose it. I think he is trying his best to avoid voicing the actual dogmatic belief system that keeps him in the cult, and that gets ripped to shreds here, so is left with trying to find other words and phrases to promote his agenda. He has always sounded a little childish and ‘whiny’, and that seems to be coming out even more, and sounds a bit like (with a tear forming in his eye),
“You bloggers just aren’t playing fair.”

He was not particularly good at his writing to begin with and as he runs out of things to say the writing itself is going downhill.
Besides the usual stuff (again childish) where he shamefully puts his fingers in his ears and turns his head and refuses to recognize that people who used to be in this cult are simply and painfully telling their experiences of Burtons abuse, this last post had sections that reminded me of papers I used to do in high school where I would just say a bunch of stuff trying to make it longer. If it was not sad it would be funny.

187. James Mclemore - December 5, 2009

DC In regards to the blog………
“The third condition which inhibits truth and renders proof inaccessible is the make up of the blog; the fact it is populated exclusively by ex members”

Duh. Again, this is why I was beginning to worry about DC. Does he have any idea where he is? Who did he think was going to post on a blog that exists essentially to expose the abusive con-artist leader and the cult that they once belonged to?

188. James Mclemore - December 5, 2009

More DC-
“First of all, the highest system known to man by which proof can be established with any degree of accuracy or surety is the system of Due Process”

I will bet he did not run that statement by Burton. I am thinking that RB would not agree. Establishment of proof for RB would have something to do with Angels that fly around the room and secret messages on mailboxes and license plates, and perhaps rhino poop. Due Process would just be yucky old A influence. RB would certainly favor esoteric verifabrication over any kind of Due Process.

189. ton - December 5, 2009

whalerider, thanks for clarifying the mind-numbing nonsense dc spews out.

fofian… good that you’re back.

182 another name:

“Coming back to admiration as you described I would formulate it as follows This is respect , acknowledging a quality that one could desire and tries to incorporate this. Instead of “admiring in passivity.”

when i re-read my own post i realized a lot of it wasn’t very clear… but what you say here is what i was getting at when i tried to distinguish between emulation and imitation… that they come from different places, with different effects. thanks for putting it so well.

190. arthur - December 5, 2009

“holding up a Western, purtanical morality of the leader’s lifestyle”—-Homosexuality.

And, didnt Robert Earl Burton assert (as “teacher”) that Homosexuality is the apex of vanity?

Prospective student Meeting:

Cult moderator—“We use a word exercise to show our mechanicality. Please refrain from using, Up, Get, I, penis and do not use contraction. When you see an “older” student flash his hand that means a photograph as in you used a word or contraction. Any questions”?

Prospective Student:

“Yes, ‘I’ have a question. ‘I dont get how my up and hard dick gets sucked by the goddess in a man’s body on the Pathway to Presence that leads to a higher state of my consciousness or conscience”?

Cult Moderator: “As you see several hands flashed the ‘photograph” signal. Please reform your question”?

Prospective Student:

How does a mid-easterners or easterners morality jive with sucking pricks as a “Pathway to Presence”?

Cult Moderator: Reform your question.

Prospective Student:

“It does not understand how a teacher as world reknown as Robert Earl Burton can suck my dick, prick, cock and wee-wee that leads to to any kind of success on the Pathway to Presence”.

Cult Moderator: “Any other questions”.

After the meeting while drinking coffee and eating cookies ( but no weed), the Cult Moderator says, “the one that could not follow the word exercise is not ready for us”.

191. James Mclemore - December 5, 2009

DC said……….

“Those who are protecting or promoting a personal agenda or have a strong bias for or against some organization, person or place, are the least likely to recognize truth when exposed to it for the simple reason that they are not seeking truth to begin with. They are actually seeking to protect the bias or agenda. In that case when truth is encountered, if it opposes their present viewpoints, biases, attitudes, they will label it falsehood, and when falsehood is encountered, if it supports the bias or personal agendas they will label it truth.”

Now ‘ton has indicated this is clearly a case of ‘projection’ and he is probably correct. My first thought was that perhaps DC might have left his body and was beginning to channel some unknown new blogger. I am not sure if DC goes into a deeper trance than the one he is already in, but we can be pretty sure he does not recognize the truth of what he wrote.

192. Daily Cardiac - December 5, 2009

176. James Mclemore

“DC –

Are you o.k.? As I was reading I wondered if perhaps you were not feeling well. It felt like you had lost a bit of your edge or something. I’m afraid this last post is just really sub-standard…

But seriously, if I was you I would consider having the blogmoderator just delete that post and then perhaps try again in a couple of days if you are feeling better.”

This reply has a dubious ring to it; possibly a good example of a motive unrelated to the words. I find it difficult to believe you are concerned that my comments are sub-standard. Are you concerned I might tarnish my reputation?

“if I was you I would consider having the blogmoderator just delete that post…”

Could a clue be present in the last quote? Perhaps there is another reason besides you being concerned that I’m not showing myself in a good light as to why you would suggest I have the comments deleted.

Perhaps #174 makes a little too much sense? What do you think? Shall we put my conclusion into the column of possibilities?

193. James Mclemore - December 5, 2009

No DC there is no ‘concern’ and there are no ‘clues’ in what I wrote. What I wrote was all sarcasm, And NO your post does not make
“a little too much sense”.
It is the same shameless and idiotic drivel that you write each time. It is just that it is written even more poorly than usual.

194. Yesri Baba - December 5, 2009

“Perhaps #174 makes a little too much sense? What do you think? Shall we put my conclusion into the column of possibilities?”

C’mon DC lighten up a little bit. Have a good long laugh it’ll do you good. You might go back over a few of your posts, they work for me.

195. The FOFion - December 6, 2009

New Wind-Up Toy Being Offered at Toys R Us

OREGON HOUSE (ARK) — The Daily Cardiac Wind-Up Doll is now available at stores near you for Christmas. Wind it up, and it walks and talks, says the same things repeatedly, and hears nothing.

The doll does not think, does not reflect, does not feel, does not care, is incapable of learning anything new, and was simply put forth by the larger Wind-Up Toy called Robert Burton — which also walks and talks, says the same things repeatedly, and hears nothing. The Burton Doll also does not think, does not reflect, does not feel, does not care, is incapable of learning anything new, and was put forth by its own Ego — with the sole purpose to protect that Ego from being exposed to the light.

“Think of the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton as a toy,” one ex-student said recently. “Someone gave it to us as a kid, and we used it and tossed it around a bit, and quickly discovered it was useless. And we also learned that walking outside into the snow was quite a bit more fun and fulfilling and life-giving — than sitting in that stuffy house playing with a useless toy — The Fellowship of Friends Wind-Up Toy, which keeps spewing out words and words and words and words while the snow falls beautifully outside.”

196. James Mclemore - December 6, 2009

Love….for love’s sake only

197. brucelevy - December 6, 2009

198. Tatyana - December 6, 2009

I just finished watching a looong introductory movie to Scientology. A friend of my daughter gave her to watch after finding out that she is interested in psychology. Warning her that this is not for ‘everybody’…
Quite an amazing sample of brilliant marketing!

I had a good talk with my daughter about cults. Still I think that nobody is protected. People can read all this blog and after that end up in RB’s bedroom. Why?
People can watch all the pathetic BS there is on TV and Internet about Scinetology and – join! Why?

Because there are needs that are unfulfilled by society. Need for community? Need for purpose? Need for safety? Need for Love?

199. Daily Cardiac - December 7, 2009

WhaleRider – 185:

It must have taken WhaleRider an hour or more to compose his clever cut & paste parody of 86 -174. In that same time he could have used any truth at his disposal to discuss or counter any of the points mentioned in 174.

That would have been my approach and probably the first choice of any individuals reading along who are waiting for someone to actually refute something I’ve stated in the last few pages.

Ex members are left with a very limited arsenal if truth is left out so we can expect exactly the same parodies and coarse silliness as before. But this tactic in itself is a proof of what’s going on, and not a small one.

200. brucelevy - December 7, 2009

199. Daily Cardiac

For me, your screed is not worth the time and energy. You’re simply a joke. You’re the only one who doesn’t see that.

201. Tatyana - December 7, 2009

DC “Schools are for reasonable people”

c’mon, man. Are you sure? Doesn’t it sound a bit manipulative to you?

“and when ex members foster unreasonable claims, like knowing the realities of others they have never met, or of the functioning of an organization they have not belonged to for 15 or 20 years, then it will cause reason to be attracted to those same endeavors the unreasonable mind opposes.”

It is just amazing to me how your mind works.. who said anything here about “the realities of others they have never met”?

“If anything my postings have clearly illustrated”

clearly illustrated??!!

“that ex members have no intentions of taking up the challenge and having a civil and legitimate two way discussion regarding the inconsistencies, gaps and improbabilities found in their statements and contentions. And since Truth welcomes such discussions their avoidance of the same is the most telling of all realities.”

I can tell the same exact thing about you, DC. Where is your two-way discussion? Bring it on!

How about this for a discussion, I just gave a prospective student lecture to my daughter demonstrating how similar it is to the Scientology demo video.

When organization such as Scientology or FOF recruits new members it presents information “for sale” that naive and willing seekers are ready to buy. But what they get is not the same thing they were offered (and paid for).

Instead of improving their level of conscious (opposed to mechanical) being they end up in a high control, mind control organization that they are afraid to leave.

Can you please explain how an intelligent idea about 4 levels of consciousness turns into the belief that if you don’t pay $500 a month gods will stop helping your evolution? Or that in order to serve the gods and the conscious school you must have sex with your teacher?

If in your words “Schools are for reasonable people”… let’s talk, DC!

202. The FOFion - December 7, 2009

Official FOF Position: Having Sex with Hundreds of Followers Isn’t ‘Coarse’

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — This just in… Having sex with followers by promising them eternal life in return isn’t “coarse energy.” Hiding that truth is not coarse. Deceiving followers is not coarse. Being a complete asshole while pretending to be very “refined” is not coarse.

Lying is not coarse. Living most of your adult life is not coarse.

No, this is not some sort of strange nightmare. This is the official position of Robert Burton and his shills on the FOF blog.

So if these things are not “coarse,” then what is?

Well… trying to alert potential and current followers that this is happening — now THAT is “course,” so says the most recent FOF shill in an official blog statement.

Bite me, Cardiac.

203. WhaleRider - December 7, 2009

Daily Cardiac:
I got news for you, it wasn’t a parody.

It is the truth about cults, particularly the one you’re in.

You wax philosophical about “due process” without little understanding of how your little cult and cult leader circumvent due process every chance you get. Give me a break.

Burton raped me as a young man.

He raped me after waking me up in the middle of the night after a long day of me working out in the hot sun on more than one occasion. I was dazed. Burton was very selective about who he gave his attention to.

First he led me into his bedroom under the premise that he wanted to “snuggle” as he put it. I got in bed with him in my pajamas, and without my permission he threw his leg over my groin. I was young, a thousand mile away from family and real friends, scared shitless, and my future was uncertain. He told me, “Don’t worry, you’re with an angel”. Then he waited. Sure enough, I got a hard-on from the direct contact and because I had to take a piss from all the wine from dinner he’d invited me.

Then he told me, “when you climax, I will receive you.” Not “if” I climax, but when. And before I knew it, down he goes. After he finished, he escorted me back to my sleeping pad and kissed me on the forehead. I felt like such a fucking idiot. Sure I was “present” for it, but by God, not in a healthy way.

Once in Italy, after dinner he asked me to his room and once inside he physically pushed me onto the bed, forceably unzipped my fly and took my cock into his mouth without me even being hard. The phone rang right when I was cumming and he got right up and answered the phone with me splooging all over my pants. It was Laura Bishop. After he hung up, he looked at me a said quite coldly, “Are you finished?” I felt cheap and used. I still have the pants with the stains.

About six months later I left the preschool with nothing but a trunk full of clothes and a head full of bad memories that I have kept silent about for decades out of shame. Until this blog. And I feel a whole lot better about what happened now that I can write about it.

You want more proof of your own blindness? Keep posting! But put some clothes on, you’ll catch cold!

204. Ames Gilbert - December 7, 2009

Daily Cardiac,
As far as I can see, this is the level of ‘discussion’ with you:
Ames says something like, “Burton has had sex with hundreds of male heterosexual followers in the forty years since he founded the Fellowship of Friends, and it is unlikely that any of them would have had sex with him unless he promised that it would “advance their evolution”. For the first twenty years, he expected silence from these partners and lied to the rest of the followers by claiming he was celibate and saving his sexual energy for his intense internal work and to develop the school”.
You, Daily Cardiac, then counter with something like, “What would be despicable behavior if he were an ordinary person is in fact worthy because Burton is conscious. His actions are far beyond our understanding, and though we cannot guess at his motivations, we must assume they are for the highest good of his partners, because we cannot prove otherwise”.

This is why no one wishes to engage with you, or just laughs at you. You are not able to reason or use logic, and you actually have no idea of what it means to have a discussion.

205. Wouldnt You Like To Know - December 7, 2009

175. Dr. Pangloss:
178. Yesri Baba:
“WTF is a suppenor?”

A concatenation of ‘suppe’ (to dine) and ‘señor’ (spanish form for mister or sir) deriving: suppe + señor = suppeñor or suppenor – or basically, a polite way that the sex partners of Arkansas Bob are called to dinner. But not necessarily to dine, rather to be dined upon. As in modern English: ‘Cum here mister; I want to eat your. . .’ Get the picture? Or, try this on for size:

ROSENCRANTZ: Where the dead body is bestow’d, my lord, We cannot get from him.
KING CLAUDIUS: But where is he?
Ros: Without, my lord, guarded, to know your pleasure.
King: Bring him before us.
Ros: Ho, Guildenstern! bring in my lord.

Enter HAMLET and GUILDENSTERN

King: Now, Hamlet, where’s Polonius?
HAMLET: At supper.
King: At supper! Where?
Ham: Not where he eats, but where he is eaten. A certain convocation of [politic] worms are e’en at him. Your worm is your only emperor for diet. We fat all creatures else to fat us, and we fat ourselves for maggots. Your fat king and your lean beggar is but variable service, two dishes, but to one table; that’s the end.
[King: Alas, alas!
Ham: A man may fish with the worm that hath eat of a king, and eat of the fish that hath fed of that worm.]
King: What dost thou mean by this?
Ham: Nothing but to show you how a king may go a progress through the guts of a beggar.
King: Where is Polonius?
Ham: In heaven. Send hither to see. If your messenger find him not there, seek him i’ th’ other place yourself.

William Shakespeare
The Tragedy of
Hamlet Prince of Denmark.
Act IV, Scene III

Or, perhaps more simply:

A concatenation of ‘suppe’ (to dine) and ‘penis’ deriving: suppe + penis = suppenis (suppenor being a different tense of same verb) – or basically, a polite way that the sex partners of Arkansas Bob are called to be dined upon. As in modern English: ‘Cum here; I want to eat your. . .’ Get the picture?

Speaking of coarseness!

The Fourth Way
P. D. Ouspensky

Q. Nature seems to be very unjust and very cruel to man.

A. What do you call nature? An earthquake is also nature. But for the moment we apply the word ‘nature’ to organic life. Evidently it was created like it is because there was no other means. If we do not like it, we can study methods of how to run away. We are too small individually to be known by any higher forces. So who is just or unjust? We operate with imaginary ideas In a small limited circle, in definite limited conditions, there can be justice and injustice. But on a larger scale this idea loses its meaning. There are many such ideas which have a certain meaning on a small scale but lose all meaning on a larger scale. At the same time this idea of justice is interesting because people lose a great amount of energy on this point. We can stop this waste, but we cannot correct things in the world. All life from beginning to end is an injustice. For instance, we have to die – it is most unjust. We divide things into just and unjust, and what right have we? All organic life is based on injustice; it is a self-supporting farm to breed cats and rats. Cats eat rats and rats eat cats. What is justice among cats and rats? This is life. It is nothing very beautiful. Our aim is to get out; it is not our business to feel indignation, that is simply loss of energy. But we must not pretend that facts are different from what they are.

[Bold emphasis is my own.]

Cats eat rats and rats eat cats.
Your guess as to whom is the cat or rat – or, non-formatorily, someone can play both roles.

206. Ill Never Tell - December 7, 2009

179. ton:
‘i agree that when admiration becomes a form of “doting” or “hero worship” it’s an unbalanced, regressive condition.’

‘Tain’t admiration, “doting” or “hero worship.” It’s penis envy.

‘as an educator, i’ve studied many theories of childhood/human development, most of which include discussions regarding a phase of development wherein the young child learns primarily through imitating adults and older children. as we grow out of childhood, our inner world / individuality is strengthened and formed to the point where imitation is no longer the primary means of learning — but then of course some folks never grow up.’

Penis envy; plain and simple. If you ain’t got one, you can have penis envy. If you ain’t got as much as You-Know-Who gets, you can have penis envy. In work language: P influence – the influence that comes from the Pness that is there, or not, whichever may be the case. (Just another form of A influence.) It’s all esoteric and hidden. Zip, zip.

207. Bares Reposting - December 7, 2009

202. The FOFion:
‘So if these things are not “coarse,” then what is?’

The youtube video posted at
86/197. brucelevy
is.

208. Panoritsa - December 7, 2009

Could not resist this one…

The nature of fast evolution dear…

http://www.videosift.com/video/Fast-Car-Small-Penis-Campaign

209. Yesri Baba - December 7, 2009

Damn! I wonder if getting rid of my Ferrari will help?

210. Spock - December 7, 2009

Hey WhaleRider, (203)
As I assume at least a few people know your identity (although I don’t), I really appreciate that you share the gory details — each and every one of them. It’s making a difference in someone’s life. Someone is reading it, and saying, “What the fuck, that’s me right now. I’m outta here!” Or “That’s my husband! What the fuck! I’m outta here!”

Then there are the others.

The inability of people to hear those details reminds me of the Nazi sympathizers in German towns where Jews were killed during WWII. Despite the smell of burnt flesh permeating the air, almost all of them denied any knowledge or simply passed it off as the consequence of war.

I sometimes wish that we — similar to Allied commanders and soldiers during that time, who led local residents into the concentration camps to see for themselves — could somehow lead people into the secret world of Burton… who is seemingly benign in front of those he wishes to deceive, but pretty ugly when people aren’t looking. Conscious schmontious. Pretty sick.

Regarding DC and RB and GH and countless other buttheads: The thing with narcissism and denial is that there is no communicating with it, because communication in itself is the first step OUT of narcissism, and that’s the last thing a narcissist wants is to lose — their narcissism. They must protect it at all costs.

But they can only protect it so much. Your post 203 is like a bombardment of heavy artillery demolishing the walls of stupidity. In other words, arguments with that are like squirt guns facing an F-16 fighter jet. I mean, what could DC say to that? All he can do is change the subject. Or try to. The subject is pretty persistent on this blog. “Damn ex-students. They’re supposed to be sad and depressed about losing the gods and losing all possibilities What’s wrong with them. Why won’t they go away? They seem pretty happy. Darn it!”

211. Daily Cardiac - December 7, 2009

Ames Gilbert – 204:

As far as I can see, this is the level of ‘discussion’ with you:
Ames says something like, “Burton has had sex with hundreds of male heterosexual followers in the forty years since he founded the Fellowship of Friends, and it is unlikely that any of them would have had sex with him unless he promised that it would “advance their evolution”. For the first twenty years, he expected silence from these partners and lied to the rest of the followers by claiming he was celibate and saving his sexual energy for his intense internal work and to develop the school”.

You, Daily Cardiac, then counter with something like, “What would be despicable behavior if he were an ordinary person is in fact worthy because Burton is conscious. His actions are far beyond our understanding, and though we cannot guess at his motivations, we must assume they are for the highest good of his partners, because we cannot prove otherwise”.

Actually I would not counter as you noted. I would counter with something like – we are born with a free will. If I know one thing about RB I know he has never forced anyone to do anything against their free will. (How does a gay man force another male to become erect and penetrate him?)

You fail to consider the possibility of a life lesson being learned; that being – don’t give up your free will to anyone, not even the teacher if you have any inkling you will regret it later. It’s an important lesson to learn. But if one identifies with the outcome one fails to learn the lesson.

Also contrary to your beliefs exists the possibility that some actually enjoyed the encounters or grew from the encounters. I know some who did. I’ve also known a few who were fairly upset he did not include them as partners.

For the people involved with RB they are inclined to engage in intimacy for any number of reasons, but basically they are giving something and getting something in return. Human nature being fairly predictable one can pretty much figure out the reasons. I’ve listed them before, but one is that people are attracted to status and power and will do things they normally would not do just to be close to status and power.

When people become disillusioned with the process of evolution they have a change of heart about the school, the teacher, etc. and they begin to undo many things in their minds. They begin to disavow many things, justify why they did many things when they were connected or involved in the school. Then the scales shift from having a choice in their decisions to being pressured or worse.This is my understanding from observing human nature, myself foremost.

But I don’t pretend to know everything about what went on behind the scenes, and you seem to be much more sure you know everyone’s story, and it’s all the same story, RB is always at fault and ex members are always above reproach.

You’ve probably never taken a class in probabilities before or you would realize your notion that one class of people (ex members) can always be truthful, as you contend, or another class (current members) can only be deceitful, as you contend, represents an impossibility. The odds of that defy all laws of probabilities. Read the entire 86 pages. Not one ex member has ever conceded a significant point said in favor of the FoF, while no ex member has ever disputed one critical comment made about the FoF, however unlikely its claims. Yet some of those same people found reasons to stay 20 or, in some cases, 30 years in the FoF.

When you essentially imply the comments of all ex members are true and the comments of all currents members who support the FoF are false you are not uncovering a reality, you are only uncovering a bias, and a fairly blatant one at that .

There are several comments in your 204 post that I would say are off the mark.

Ames – “Burton has had sex with hundreds of male heterosexual followers in the forty years since he founded the Fellowship of Friends, and it is unlikely that any of them would have had sex with him unless he promised that it would “advance their evolution”.

First of all its a guess at best on your part that “any of them (hundreds, by your estimation) would not have had sex with him unless he promised that it would “advance their evolution.” How could you actually know this?

The Robert I know, and I’ve been around him longer than you have, would not say that to someone. He would say, and does say practically on a daily basis, that the only way to advance your evolution is to be present as much as possible.

Now, as you can see, we have different views on the issue. How is it that you come to the conclusion that your view is any more valid than mine? This is really the issue.

Ames: “For the first twenty years, he expected silence from these partners and lied to the rest of the followers by claiming he was celibate and saving his sexual energy for his intense internal work and to develop the school”.

I don’t know that he ever expected silence from anyone. He knows as well as anyone that people talk, that people would even brag about it in some instances. I knew about it in 82 and it was common knowledge to many. The topic was not bandied about over tea, and not everyone knew, but it was hardly a secret.

Also I am not aware that Robert ever proclaimed in the early 70’s that he would be celibate for the rest of his life. From my vantage point it was a useful exercise, just like the exercise of silence, which lasted a year or so and then was let go.

If I were you I would do some homework and a good deal of reflection about the laws of probabilities, laws of average, and examine your claims and you may come to the place where you see you are only discrediting yourself by totally dismissing every utterance of a supporter and totally believing every unsubstantiated claim from any ex member. Those odds don’t fly in the real world.

212. Renald - December 7, 2009

….and so eventually the princess kisses the frog, after being told that the frog will be turned into a prince, and you guessed it, the princess turned into a frog. Even a six year old figured that one out. Man, kids are sure smart nowadays!

213. Jomo Piñata - December 7, 2009

An editorial in today’s newspaper:

http://bit.ly/5ynL4a

Compare Bishop Egan’s words with those of the archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, who, after the release of a recent report detailing years of abuse and cover-ups in Ireland, said:

“The sexual abuse of a child is and always was a crime in civil law; it is and always was a crime in canon law; it is and always was grievously sinful. One of the most heartbreaking aspects of the report is that while church leaders — bishops and religious superiors — failed, almost every parent who came to the diocese to report abuse clearly understood the awfulness of what was involved.”

Bishop Egan, with institutional pride, looks at the relatively low rate of proven abuse cases as a sort of perverse accomplishment.

“It’s marvelous,” he said, “when you think of the hundreds and hundreds of priests and how very few have even been accused, and how very few have even come close to having anyone prove anything.”

Does anybody else think Lacuna Piñata sounds just like Bishop Egan?

214. WhaleRider - December 7, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

“Those odds don’t fly in the real world.”

Like the odds that out of 6 billion people on the planet, you all are the chosen ones?

Probability and due process? What real world are you talking about? Certainly not the fantasy world you’re living in.

Give me a break.

The hallmark of rationalization is that you mold your “thinking” to fit your beliefs. Yours are textbook.

I’d say that rationalization is what you might call your chief feature.

That’s why your clothes don’t fit you any more.

The fact that no former followers here have anything nice to say about Burton’s Rape Factory, coupled with the fact that you seem to be the only one here tooting his horn for him ought to tell you something, too.

You need to keep your job at any cost, and it appears you’ll say just about anything to do so. You are a believer.

“I don’t know that he ever expected silence from anyone.”

I do.

One time when Burton positioned me straddling on top of him in such a way as to dangle my testicles into his mouth, I made a moaning sound to please him, when really I was grossed out about the whole affair. Since his mouth was otherwise occupied, he quickly put his finger to my lips to “shush” me, presumably so that other followers asleep in the adjoining rooms would not hear what was going on. We never engaged in any conversation about our sexual encounters, leaving me to gather that he didn’t want any discussion about the topic, and of course, the “no gossip” exercise was in place. And when people talked, they got booted out.

And then there is that little statue of the Cherub with his finger to his lips…and the whole silence exercise to begin with.

As I was thinking about this last night, I realized that once I moved into the big house with Burton, my “octave leader” at the time never questioned why I was so late to work in the mornings…I gather he knew I was on “night duty”.

215. Silentpurr - December 7, 2009

Daily Cardiac, I am suggesting a Chief Feature for your consideration- NO SHAME.

216. 411 - December 7, 2009

I remember being terrified attending the first few dinners at Burton’s house. I knew he liked heterosexual men and i didn’t want to be another member of his harem. At the end of the dinners (back in the mid 90’s) you would line up in a receiving line for Burton to say goodnight to you. That line allowed him to assign little tasks to people as they left (“dear, don’t forget to research that meteor shower we are expecting next week”) or to have certain men hang back and stick around for the after-party. I was NEVER bummed out that Burton didn’t include me as his sex slave.

He actually has dozens of men on-call who will allow themselves to be serviced by Burton 24/7.

I always found it interesting that the men who engaged in sex with burton, regardless of the fact that they achieved erections/orgasms never pursued any other sexual contact with other men besides burton. They allowed this aberration to be confined to burton only.

And as far as getting an erection goes, I was in a department store and saw a really hot looking woman out of the corner of my eye and immediately got a little turned on and then turned to look at her only to find out it was a mannequin. If you close your eyes is there really a difference in sensation between a woman and burton giving you oral?

217. James Mclemore - December 7, 2009

215. Silentpurr

“NO SHAME.”

Yes, that element seems the most predominant, and the most ugly and sad, that comes across through the words. The intellectual blindness can be seen as almost humorous, but there is nothing funny at all about “NO SHAME”.

218. Spock - December 7, 2009

It’s easy to forget that DC doesn’t really believe most of the dogma he’s regurgitating here, which makes it a lot more challenging to discuss or argue with him. He knows full well that the FOF is run by a few people with nefarious intentions, and that the cult has all of the same symptoms of other cults that die violent deaths. He knows full well that these individuals, Robert Burton especially, take advantage of the naive. The thing is, for him it’s a sign of his “strength” that he sticks with the program despite that realization. It shows his discipline and loyalty. He’s being tested but does not buckle. He’s a soldier, he believes. He doesn’t give in or admit any wrongdoing on the part of Burton, or wrongdoing on his own part for supporting such a sick narcissist.

And unfortunately MANY people think like DDin the FOF — maybe two or three hundred?

The more people leave the FOF, the higher the percentage of DC’s that remain behind — no conscience, and no concept that it’s even important to have a conscience. They definitely are very willing to have people believe that they do have a conscience (partly by avoiding any discussion of what conscience might mean) — because they believe that gives them an advantage.

Remember what you’re dealing with. You can express your own ideas, and use him to stimulate the conversation, but let’s be honest about this: You can’t talk with it. It’s an ego-driven machine that will deny all evidence that something is seriously wrong. Deny, deny, deny. No matter what you throw at him, he will do one of the following two things:

1) Ignore anything he can’t respond to.
2) Respond if there’s a canned response that seems to fit.

It’s formulaic. I’m not saying anything he says makes sense or presents anything resembling a strong argument, but he’s pretty good at the formula, that I will acknowledge.

219. Golden Veil - December 8, 2009

*

211. Daily Cardiac

“For the people involved with RB they are inclined to engage in intimacy for any number of reasons, but basically they are giving something and getting something in return. Human nature being fairly predictable one can pretty much figure out the reasons. I’ve listed them before, but one is that people are attracted to status and power and will do things they normally would not do just to be close to status and power.”

…and also:

“The Robert I know, and I’ve been around him longer than you have, would not say that to someone. He would say, and does say practically on a daily basis, that the only way to advance your evolution is to be present as much as possible.”

Daily Cardiac, don’t you think that the

“only way to advance your evolution is to be present as much as possible.”

and

“people are attracted to status and power and will do things they normally would not do just to be close to status and power.”

are inharmonious in their avowed intention [and necessary inattention]?

What kind of creepy ‘Teacher’ would use that methodology; that is, instill the necessity to SLEEP rather than BE PRESENT in order to bear doing things one wouldn’t normally do?

The bottom line is that this blog is not about excellence in debate techniques, knowledge of the laws of probabilities or the laws of averages; this blog is about educating prospective Pathway to Presence ‘Students’ about who the ‘Teacher’ is; his methodology and his history of introducing homosexual sex to non-homosexual ‘Students’. To inform those investigating the school Pathway to Presence of Robert Burton’s propensity to manipulate ‘Students’ in order to feed his voracious sexual appetite for new (usually young) sexual partners. To inform them of his avid seduction of men that are in committed relationships with women, even married to women. This is not the actions of a ‘Teacher’ endowed with higher consciousness, or for that matter, any conscience at all.

Your use of lame excuses, attempts at various debating techniques, and general hyperbole does nothing to defend the prevailing creepiness of Robert Burton’s actions as a sexual predator. Yes, he preys on vulnerable students who, in some cases, “will do things they normally would not do just to be close to status and power”.

And, yes there are men posting here that succumbed to his seductive ‘Teacher’ spell. But they are the ones who are AWAKE now. Not so the ‘Students’ lying in Robert Burton’s hungry embrace. They are, by necessity, ASLEEP.

“Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.”

[Thomas Jefferson]

*

220. another voice - December 8, 2009

Hello DC, I am a friend. Do you remember the day we spent together burning brush at the O’brien place…… when the fire got out of hand, climbed a pine tree, and we were able to knock it down with a few buckets of water? Do you remember? If so, I will try to contact you by letter.

221. Just the Facts Ma'am - December 8, 2009

210. Spock:
‘The inability of people to hear those details reminds me of the Nazi sympathizers in German towns where Jews were killed during WWII. Despite the smell of burnt flesh permeating the air, almost all of them denied any knowledge or simply passed it off as the consequence of war.’

P. D. Ouspensky:
But we must not pretend that facts are different from what they are.

It is important to realize, not in theory but through seeing facts, that people do not understand one another and that the situation is becoming more and more complicated. If people have machine-guns, it is more dangerous. And they have machine-guns in
many senses. So each misunderstanding becomes more deep and more complicated.

210. Spock:
‘The thing with narcissism and denial is that there is no communicating with it, because communication in itself is the first step OUT of narcissism, and that’s the last thing a narcissist wants is to lose — their narcissism.’

P. D. Ouspensky:
All the absurdities of life depend on the fact that people do not understand that certain things can be done with only one kind of triad. They use a wrong triad, a wrong kind of action, and are surprised that the results are not what they wanted. For instance, it is no good trying to teach by beating, or trying to persuade with machine-guns. Find your own and better examples of the wrong use of triads and you will see that certain results can be obtained only by an appropriate action.

211. Daily Cardiac:
‘If I know one thing about RB I know he has never forced anyone to do anything against their free will.’

You, sir, are sadly mistaken, and there are many, many examples and testimonials in these 86 pages that refute that statement. I have several experiences, which have not appeared here, yet, that are definite cases of ‘forced anyone to do anything against their free will.’ Maybe it just has not happened to you, YET!?

211. Daily Cardiac:
‘people are attracted to status and power and will do things they normally would not do just to be close to status and power.’

Excellent example of: ‘against their free will’ type of teaching in Fellowship of Friends – Pathway to Presence. ‘For instance, it is no good trying to teach by beating, or trying to persuade with machine-guns.’

DC, you are one formatory dude. It is your two of diamonds that writes here.

[Reason your post showed up as 211 is that you only have half the 411, i.e. information, on any particular subject.]

A Bishop’s Words/New York Times:
‘In the end it was not the power of repentance or compassion that compelled the Roman Catholic Diocese of Bridgeport, Conn., to release more than 12,000 pages of documents relating to lawsuits alleging decades of sexual abuse of children by its priests. . . It was a court order. The diocese had spent seven years fighting a lawsuit brought by The New York Times and three other newspapers to unseal the records in 23 lawsuits involving accusations against seven priests. . .’

Besides one of the reasons, stated here on the blog, for settlement of the S_nd_rs and/or B_zby law suits, that of insurance company pressures to cut the losses, was the prospect of deposition of witnesses, subpoenas, and/or testimony in court – where those matters would become documented and of public record.

214. WhaleRider:
‘and of course, the “no gossip” exercise was in place. And when people talked, they got booted out.’

Excellent example of: ‘against their free will’ type of teaching in Fellowship of Friends – Pathway to Presence. ‘For instance, it is no good trying to teach by beating, or trying to persuade with machine-guns.’

214. WhaleRider:
‘knew I was on “night duty”.’ Just like R_ch_rd B_zby.

218. Spock:
He [DC] knows full well that the FOF is run by a few people with nefarious intentions, and that the cult has all of the same symptoms of other cults that die violent deaths. He knows full well that these individuals, Robert Burton especially, take advantage of the naive. The thing is, for him it’s a sign of his “strength” that he sticks with the program despite that realization. It shows his discipline and loyalty. He’s being tested but does not buckle. He’s a soldier, he believes. He doesn’t give in or admit any wrongdoing on the part of Burton, or wrongdoing on his own part for supporting such a sick narcissist.

Excellent example of: ‘against their free will’ type of teaching in Fellowship of Friends – Pathway to Presence. ‘For instance, it is no good trying to teach by beating, or trying to persuade with machine-guns.’

219. Golden Veil:
‘the necessity to SLEEP rather than BE PRESENT in order to bear doing things one wouldn’t normally do?’

Perhaps that could also read: ‘in order to bare [as in get naked], doing things one wouldn’t normally do.’

Once again:
Excellent example of: ‘against their free will’ type of teaching in Fellowship of Friends – Pathway to Presence. ‘For instance, it is no good trying to teach by beating, or trying to persuade with machine-guns.’

222. Spock - December 8, 2009

Just the Facts… Your responses to a few of my paragraphs are extremely vague. I suggest you just say what you’re thinking and avoid the quotes. I can’t tell if you agree, disagree, or if I hit a nerve and you’re still trying to figure it out. And I have no idea how the Ouspensky quotations have any relevance in context because you don’t share with us exactly what it is about the Ouspensky quotes that you believe are relevant.

Right now, I’m guessing I hit a nerve. One of the things I’m realizing… Any criticism of the FOF and Burton does actually in fact come back around and become of criticism of all of us… members, ex-members, all… We shared in the experience. We all didn’t listen, didn’t think, didn’t reflect, didn’t act. Comparisons to Nazi Germany and other violent cults might seem a bit offensive.

This talk of “triads”.. I have no idea what that means or how it’s relevant here. I will say this… For me, it’s not about “teaching”. It’s about expressing yourself, expressing your opinion, offering your criticism — all things that we were not allowed to do in the Fellowship of Friends.

Speak directly, Just the Facts, not through nuances and suggestion. THAT is what we were taught in the FOF. We were taught to say what we meant but only with guarded language… Why? Well, because if we said it DIRECTLY and FIRMLY, people would know what were actually thinking about Burton, and we’d be “kicked out of the school.”

One of the most effective ideas in the FOF for preventing action and change was this idea of “right triad” — which constantly changed the focus to, “Perhaps I shouldn’t say anything to anyone. Perhaps I shouldn’t act.”

It truly got to the point where any action, any change, away from the status quo, was the “wrong triad.”

Remember the ultimate wrong triad? That’s right — leaving the school.

223. Ames Gilbert - December 8, 2009

DC, responding to your post #211, is a college level full–semester course in statistics that I passed with a ‘B’ good enough for you? It is easy to tell that you actually know nothing about statistics or have forgotten everything that you know. Neither of us has a body of robust empirical data to do the statistics on. I know that, but you don’t. Nevertheless, I do have something of substance to base my numbers on. First, I took a computer printout of all FoF followers to date in November 1994 (as supplied to the gatehouse guards), and marked up who I either directly knew had had sexual relations with Burton, or who I trusted to know, 12 people who directly admitted to me, and 56 who had admitted this to someone who I trusted. Not that scientific, but the best I could do. I then gave a copy of the same list to Stella W., who was in a position to know because many, many people came to her with their troubles over the years, and she had many conversations on the subject before, during, and after her stay in the FoF. She marked 309 heterosexual young men, and 3 homosexual young men. I then compared her list and mine, and there was 100% overlap. Then I compared the list with what Burton himself admitted, and there was 100% overlap. So, with the limited resources available, I felt fairly sure and am still fairly sure that there were “hundreds of young men who had had sex with Burton”, and that was by 1994.

My claim that these heterosexual young men were unlikely to have had sex with Burton unless they were assured that it would advance their evolution is based on two observations. First, heterosexual young men are usually repulsed by the thought of having homosexual encounters. Secondly, to overcome the repulsion, there would have to be some benefit. I know personally, and have heard from many others, that Burton uses words along the lines of, “C-Influence wants us to be friends”, or “I am an angel in a man’s body, and you should externally consider me”. I have also heard from others that Burton specifically has said, “This will advance your evolution”. Again, this is not a scientific survey (not that you are in the slightest bit interested in or knowledgeable about the scientific method, Daily Cardiac). So it is no stretch at all to claim that the main reason why most heterosexual men initially submit to sex with Burton is that they think it will advance their evolution. People told me this directly. There may be other reasons, sure; most of us can think back and see that some decisions are based on several reasons at one time, but this was the main one.

I know from my own observations and observations of others that we will do the most amazing mental contortions to rationalize something we are ashamed of, and there have been plenty of clinical psychological studies on the subject. When one adds in the fact that sex with Burton is normalized in the FoF, that is, everyone accepts it as normal, and not only normal, but expected and desirable, and not only desirable but specifically desirable from the point of view of advancing one’s evolution, then the pressure to conform to that normality at the moment Burton turns on the heat is hard to resist. And if you haven’t personally seen what can only be called the pre–seduction of likely candidates by those already or previously in Burton’s harem, then you have been singularly unobservant. I can recall dozens of such occasions in places like the Lodge or the Bistro.

Daily Cardiac, the most shameful part of your and other apologists’ defenses is this. You believe in some kind of averages, that if ‘the harm outweighs the good’, then one should accept the situation. You believe that if ‘not that many are harmed’, and you yourself have not been harmed, then it is fine for you to continue to support the system. I have news for you. All that does is categorically prove that you have no operating conscience. A person with an awakened conscience holds that not even one person is worth sacrificing for a supposedly noble aim, and that includes self–sacrifice. A person with a conscience understands deeply, to the core of his or her being, that the means shape the ends. You may believe that to achieve consciousness (whatever that is), any and all means are necessary. That is certainly what Burton preaches, and people like Girard Haven dutifully echo that. A person with conscience understands that the sacrifice of even one person, guarantees that whatever else, the result is twisted and perverted. The irony is that it also guarantees that followers like you, as well as Burton himself, cannot see this; your world-view sees the results just as you expected them to be. That is what the phrase, “The means shape the ends” signifies; you may label the ends with the same name, but in the meantime they have changed to suit the means you have embraced.

Daily Cardiac, now you are outright lying when you say that you have read 86 pages and found no ex–followers saying anything good about their experience in the FoF. As just one example, I myself replied to a previous such claim by you in post # 97 on page 43. And there have been plenty of others. It would be a great pity indeed if I and others extracted nothing good from many years of experiences, but I can’t recall any such absolute claims.

Daily Cardiac, now you claim we have free will (#211)? What happened to “the play is written” you imply you have verified (e.g. in your post #86-174, and BTW, I’m eagerly looking forward to hearing how you verified that)?

I could go on and on, but will spare gentle readers. Sigh!

224. Crouching Tiger - December 8, 2009

No advance occurs simply by ‘being in a state’. It has to be accompanied by a growth in the sense of connectedness and responsibility for that connectedness.

Gurdjieff used to give his students many tasks related to their parents. Where else would a sense of responsibility start?

One student asked him “What can I do to have remorse of conscience?”

G: “I see your mother here. It is to her that you owe your life. If you are glad to live, you must repay her. It is because of her that you have possibilities of developing yourself. Repay her. You should unify her life, but instead you make her life more difficult. You unnerve her, you irritate her. You have not fulfilled your obligations. If you could understand this, remorse of conscience could begin in you. Remember this and try to repair the past with your future in the present. If you forget, if you do not do it, you are not only to blame for the past, but also for not repairing it today”.

If Burton could maybe have experienced some of this kind of remorse with his own mother, if he could have done anything other than stay away from her hospital bed as she was dying, then maybe things could have been different in the fellowship and in Burton’s own ‘relationships’ as they have developed. But they are not.

There is no intent to repair the past today, to go back in order to go forward. There is no remorse of conscience for his sexual partners when it ends badly – just a blind and nerveless repetition on an ever grander scale.

225. Ames Gilbert - December 8, 2009

Of course in #223 above, I meant to say to DC, “You believe in some kind of average, that if ‘the good outweighs the harm’, then one should accept the situation.

Everyone needs an editor—I probably more than some.

226. Dr. Pangloss - December 9, 2009

211. Daily Douche

“But I don’t pretend to know everything about what went on behind the scenes, and you seem to be much more sure you know everyone’s story, and it’s all the same story, RB is always at fault and ex members are always above reproach.”

You don’t know ANYTHING about what went on behind the scenes.

Here’s a true story.
While an employee of the Fellowship of Friends, It was requested by Robert Burton that I fly to Europe to meet up with him and his entourage for an extended trip . I was given a ONE-WAY ticket to London and a small amount cash. For the entire trip, I was pressured to submit to oral sex by the horse-mouthed Burton. For the first 4 weeks, I refused and was “sent to the back of the bus” while Burton worked on another guy (who also apparently resisted). So I was pressured again and again, until I finally gave up and let him swallow a couple of loads. It was not something I enjoyed, or understood. There was no love or respect or free-will involved AT ALL. I found the experience humiliating and repulsive.
After returning to Oregon House, I explained to Burton that I would not submit to his advances again and I was promptly relieved of my job and assigned a lower paying position.
Any decent employment attorney would jump all over this as a case of sexual harassment by a superior in a position of authority working for a church. But, stupid me, I kept my mouth shut and put my monthly paycheck of $175 in the bank like the rest of the oppressed zombies.
HEY ANYONE thinkign of joing Pathways to Presence/Fellowship of Freinds:
Does this sound like the kind of teacher you would give up your will to. Would you even buy a used car from this excuse for a human being??

“Also contrary to your beliefs exists the possibility that some actually enjoyed the encounters or grew from the encounters. I know some who did. I’ve also known a few who were fairly upset he did not include them as partners.”

Well maybe that’s true now. I guess getting a pretty pastel set of clothes for being fucked is better than having Boris at the gulag shove a broom up your ass.
And sure, you, Michael Goodwin and a couple of other closeted gay men were upset about not being chosen, but I can assure you it was not the norm when I was around.

By the way, tell your mother I said hello.

227. rock that boat - December 9, 2009

DC must be laughing HER head off!

I just got the inside scoop, DC is Linda T-lliso
And it absolutely makes sense, mercurial, dogmatic,
loves writing, likes to play games…. pretending, BS-ing

Time to let her be folks!

This inside information is very reliable!!!

228. Silentpurr - December 9, 2009

Of Course! One of the many attention-starved women of the FOF! Someday you may feel comfortable enough to discuss what is REALLY on your mind, DC.

229. X-ray - December 9, 2009

Daily Cardiac,
Whoever you are, I swear to God you such an idiot!

230. Spock - December 9, 2009

You think this is news? lol

Not sure why the fact that you believe you know DC’s identity makes DC’s ideas any less strange or why anything would be any more humorous than it already is. Who knows whether anyone is laughing on the other end of the coaxial cable, but it’s pretty obvious that DC evokes some of the best commentary on the blog. My take is that Ames, for example, is really not talking to DC at all — but to an entity of sorts that doesn’t want to be seen in the light — that’s all. He’s responding to that. WhaleRider is, too. So is Yesri Baba.

It’s like taking a floodlight and turning it on with Burton and DC both sitting there behind a bush somewhere and embarassed with their pants down, ‘deer in the headlights’ looks on their faces.

The discussion keeps going thanks in part to DC’s mindless, brain-numbing dogma that rationalizes Burton’s serious mental illness, and basically lays out for all to see just how bad things are in the Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence / Apollo / Renaissance, etc.

So I’m not entirely sure why it surprises you that it would be her or him or anyone else who spends large amounts of time supporting the effort.

Wouldn’t surprise me were it true. Also, I doubt that it’s ever been just one person anyway.

231. Spock - December 9, 2009

By the way, Dr. Pangloss… I like your stuff. Thanks for sharing your personal account. Has anyone used the word “slimy” yet to describe Burton? If not, why not? It definitely fits.

226 Dr. Pangloss: Required reading.

232. Tatyana - December 9, 2009

“It wasn’t like a breakdown, but I had to just stop and take care of myself. I was struggling. I never went out. I was just terrified and exhausted. I approached Work very seriously, and it just got to be too much for me. I just felt like I really wanted to hold on to who I was and try to have as much as normal life as I could. I know how they feeling. They think it’s going to be like this forever, so they’re not being more careful. But I’ve been doing this for a quarter-century now. I remember when so many people were No.1 star at the box office. And I’ve also seen so many people crash and burn.”

~Winona Ryder.

I found it in The Week magazine and thought that it is exactly my thoughts about FOF

233. Golden Veil - December 9, 2009

*

An innovative leader can teach people to achieve all kinds of things. People can be orchestrated. I like what this choirmaster achieves.

The rain has begun again for the first time in a long time.

234. WhaleRider - December 9, 2009

Dr. Pangloss, thank you for sharing your personal story.

Daily Cardiac…hmmm…a male god in a female body then?

Figures….Girard would be too preoccupied with internet porn to concern himself with the blog.

I do commend you, though.

If anything you have always appeared to be one of burton’s most ardent and loyal followers…a true believer. With good reason…you are still on salary these many years, aren’t you?…sucking on the FOF’s tit, so to speak, shielded from the big, bad ‘real world’ as you say.

It’s no wonder that you are here tooting burton’s horn for him, it’s to protect your livelihood. I guess one way or another the FOF is full of suckers.

It did seem like you were a bit disconnected with how the male anatomy works. In your posts you assumed that an erection precludes love and attraction, which isn’t necessarily the case and some people have to learn the “hard way”…

235. WhaleRider - December 9, 2009

Listen, Daily Cardiac, I can understand your glaring lack of empathy for the men involved with burton.

I am certian you have noticed over the years how men can act like such idiots when they are young, immature, and think with their dicks instead of their head and their hearts. I should know.

You, on the other hand, feel your love for burton is more “pure”, don’t you?

By god, you’d sacrifice your own husband to feed burton’s satyriasis wouldn’t you?

Don’t you think burton has realized this?

You have proven yourself over and over to be his loyal follower no matter what. That’s a quality of your so-called, “body type” isn’t it?

That’s how he’s pulling your strings and always has. For you, loyality is mechanical. Unconscious. Predictable.

You’re his fag hag.

Don’t you get it?

The more you toot his horn for him the more power he gives you to enforce his rules…rules designed to cull and groom the pool of victims.

He uses you to lure vulnerable men to him. Straight men, at that…making sure they are completely loyal to HIS cause, just like you.

That’s your role…you precreen the candidates by weeding out the defiant ones and ‘teaching’ those who remain how to rationalize what is soon to happen to them the closer they get to burton’s inner circle…which is basically a jerk circle….everyone jerking each other off while you get to watch. Be honest, does male gay sex make you wet? Or does it gross you out like it does for me?

And you are sooo good at what you do. Your uncanny ability to rationalize makes you invaluable to burton and his agenda.

That’s why you get paid the big bucks. That’s why you are here.

And that’s what makes the FOF a Rape Factory and you just a cog in the wheel….IMO.

236. Daily Cardiac - December 9, 2009

WhaleRider – 185 & 203:

You said #185 is not a parody. What I see if that you obviously thought you could not improve on my logic or reasoning as you used it exclusively and only inserted your own terms to change the values to suit your own purposes. I guess it’s true that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The next time you call my reasoning lame or whatever I’ll remind you it was good enough that you based your entire post on it.

However it’s #203 that interests me the most. In it you state fairly soon on that RB raped you. Then you go on to describe your contact which describes nothing but consenting sex between two adults. My only guess is that you used the term “rape” for effect only.

After reading #203 it seemed useful to break it down into two categories for the purpose of discussion. Those two would be 1) Certainties, both stated or unstated and 2) Uncertainties, again both stated or unstated. The unstated varieties would be arrived at by means of simple deduction or observation or “putting two and two together.”

I thought I would leave out adding my own method of deduction based on spiritual discoveries just keep it simple and straight up.

First of all I have no reason to disbelieve you when you say you had sex with RB. Although I wasn’t there in the room I’ll concede that to the column of Certainty.

What else is certain? It is a Certainty that you have a deep loathing and distrust for RB. You have not stated this in so many words that I know of but you have indicated/displayed it over and over in your comments. It is also a Certainty that you were once in the FoF and you are no longer a member. So it is a further Certainty that you have rejected the organization of the FoF which RB has founded.

Before I list the Uncertainties I want you to realize I am not suggesting you are being untruthful in any of your stories, I’m simply being truthful about what we can actually know for certain. At any rate it will be clear to all following along.

Uncertainty – We would have to include in this column your version of the events as you have told them. Why? Because we were not there and must take you at your word. And since we are certain you have a deep detest and distrust for RB we know that this could be seen as cause or motive to slant the retelling to coincide with your desire to show him in a bad light or show yourself in a good light. Nothing personal but this is part of human nature. If you had not on so many previous occasions stated your desire to shut down the FoF we might not be so quick to attribute such a strong underlying cause or motive.

Uncertainty – Your Motives / Agendas for agreeing to sex with RB. Some of this is mentioned in your stories but as the stories themselves are in the Uncertainty column it stands to reason any hidden motives would likewise be uncertain. I think it’s been established and well documented that statements do not necessarily equate to truth. But we are not totally in the dark in this area. Actions often contradict words and can be taken more as an agent that can lead to truth in ways that words or statements cannot.

In this regard taking your revulsion over the sex as true it’s puzzling that you continued on for months in this arrangement, living in the Academy, accepting trips as one of RB’s traveling companions. This fact would cause many to wonder just how repulsed you really were. Judging by the way you say you felt it’s reasonable to think that once would have been enough for you to realize it was a violation of your nature, as you contend in your versions.

Taking these points into consideration you can see that your versions would have to be placed in the column of Uncertainty in any attempt at truth gathering. So far I would have to say that the reasons you mention for going along with the sex seem, well, not exactly flimsy, but certainly not rock solid and not closed to several other interpretations.

Certainty – You indeed had some motives /agendas /reasons for having sex with RB. Even a basic thing like putting on a hat requires a motive, or reason. We are simply not certain what they were. They could be exactly as you stated or diametrically opposite to what you stated.

I’m going to avoid stating my take on why you may have gone down the road you did with RB, as I have previously commented on it several times in a general sense.

You will probably answer this post with more statements which cannot be substantiated and would, by all rights, have to be placed into the Uncertainty column. It would be great if you could actually come up with a rendition that was beyond reproach, beyond doubt. I know your fellow ex members will come to your defense and attest to the truthfulness of your stories with more statements. And they will be the statements of others who by their own admission are apt to possess the same causes or motives as you may possess.

237. Crouching Tiger - December 9, 2009

Certainty – Is there any other community in the world at large – other than a registered church with protected status with him as undisputed figurehead – in which Burton’s sexual desires could be satisfied in the way and to the degree he apparently needs?

No.

Uncertainty – The Fellowship of Friends’ status as a “spiritual community”. Burton and its members say it’s one, but the facts suggest otherwise. The lack of any apprenticeship by Burton, or of connection to any other spiritual teacher or tradition, and the institutionalized search for sexual partners for Burton, cast severe doubt on its spiritual aim as anything other than a vicarious cover story.

238. Anon E. Mouse - December 9, 2009

Q. What is the difference between Robert Burton’s School of Decadence and any other pseudo-religious cult?
A. Erotica is with a feather; Pornography is with the whole chicken.

239. ton - December 9, 2009

dc’s life on burton’s slimy fof playground:

“There are two ways to slide easily through life,” the noted linguist and mathematician Alfred Korzybski once said. “To believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking.”

dc is not thinking, she does both of the above; she demonstrates an unquestioning belief in burton and unyielding disbelief in everything that questions her belief in burton. dc slides easily through life because of her ‘fundamentalism,’ there is nothing nuanced in her mentality, no discernment, no questioning; this is why she is so agonizingly glib in her state of denial.

240. Ames Gilbert - December 9, 2009

I’ve tried to avoid telling other people’s stories, but since this one was told to me and it had a really big effect on me, I’m going to go ahead.
When I started asking people about their sexual experiences with Burton, something unexpected happened. Somehow the word that I was interested got around, and people started approaching me, unbidden and unexpected.
One night, a man called and asked if I would talk with him. I agreed, and expected the conversation to continue over the phone. Instead, he asked if he could come and talk in person, right away. I said okay, and then, just before calling off, he said, “By the way, I want to bring my wife”. I said that was fine, and did he mind if my wife was present; I told him that she was completely trustworthy and would provide balance.
Five minutes later, he was there, with his wife. They were pale and distraught and obviously in turmoil.
The next hours were some of the most amazing of my life. This man told me about his relationship with Burton in detail, and it was revolting from every point of view. The relationship had been going on for four years. One of the more surreal aspects of all this is that this was that most of this was new to his wife. She had only learned of fact of the sexual relationship the previous day, without details. She was processing all this right in front of my eyes, and I could see her reaction to all the details as her husband told them. He was confessing to her and us at the same time, and his grief and shame and agony, and hers, was one of the most powerful experiences I have ever had in my life.
As all this unfolded, I was also conscious that this was a very rare moment, that the unvarnished truth was being told, and I must remember everything.

When the first wave had finished (about twenty minutes), I was aware of the incredible anger building up in his wife. She was boiling with rage and plainly wanted to be elsewhere. I felt I should say something, so I asked him if he minded if I asked him questions. Obviously, I asked how it started. He told me that Burton asked him to stay on after a ‘Symposium’ where everyone had a great deal to drink. Burton took him to a bedroom and told him to get undressed. The man knew enough about Burton to guess what was about to happen, and protested. Burton told him that his reluctance was due to ingrained mechanical morality, and specifically that working against this would aid his evolution. This convinced the man; he for sure agreed that this would be deeply against his nature, so it would indeed be very strong ‘work on his mechanicality’. After oral sex on the man, Burton then told him to lie on the floor. Burton then masturbated to climax over him.

This was the pattern of the relationship. Every time the man had doubts, Burton told him that he was advancing, that he was on the fast track of evolution, that the angels approved, that he was privileged, that his spiritual future was assured. It was also the sexual pattern. As this unfolded, I was conscious that I was hearing a description of pure, unmitigated evil.

So we found out that all this time, his wife had no idea. She was not a follower when they met, and only joined because he was already a member. She liked the people, but did not particularly empathize with what the FoF claimed. She had had a strong (but not fundamendalist) religious upbringing. But she did know she loved her husband. She started talking, her words were of disbelief and betrayal. “How could you have done this?” she asked over and over again. My wife and I were just spectators for the next hour, and we might just as will have been invisible for most of the time as they thrashed with the issues.

When the second wave was over, we tried to comfort them. I could see that now a period of doubt and regret had started. Why on earth did they come to two strangers and spill all this out? After a while I asked. Because the people that they knew, the regular Fellowship folks, could not be trusted. They had no one to turn to. They had to express and confess. The wife felt so stupid. The man felt such shame, felt such a fool. He should have known better, he should have told his wife immediately, but the longer he avoided it, the harder it became.

Then we started talking about conscience. I buried mine, the man said, I can see that now. I knew at the time that this was wrong for me, but I thought that Burton knew better, and that sacrificing mechanicality was what was needed for awakening. Burton assured me over and over again that I was on the road to awakening, that my understanding hadn’t caught up yet.

We talked for another hour about what this meant. What is the nature of betrayal? What can be learned from it? What is the nature of forgiveness? Is there such a thing as volitional forgiveness, or is all one can do is prepare the ground as best as one can and invite forgiveness in when it is time?

The last fifteen minutes we spent hugging and caring, and then they went back home, with at least a temporary peace.
And they did stay together.

From this, I deeply understood why a man would submit to Burton. As I’ve said before, I don’t know what would have happened if Burton had pressed me, had not taken ‘no’ for an answer. DC is right in one way, anyone could say ‘no’, and most of us were adults in the technical sense. But DC is very wrong in the most important way. Burton uses his authority and power to get his way. The Fourth Way demands that one give up one’s will to a teacher, and Burton certainly demands that. What do you do when it comes to the crunch? Burton either claims outright or by implication (and it’s a damn strong implication, DC, whatever you say) that this is an excellent way to ‘work against mechanicality’. And the idea that once we’ve turned 18 we are all adults, all competent and able to prevail in the world is nonsense. In some very important ways, many people attracted to the FoF are children who want to be told what to do.

241. Dr. Pangloss - December 9, 2009

Attention all employees of The Fellowship of Friends. Read the following text on sexual harassment. You may have a strong case against the FOF and it’s Board of Directors if you have been a victim of sexual harassment. Contact a lawyer specializing in sexual harassment and discuss your case. You may be due financial compensation if your employment by The Fellowship of Friends was adversely effected by your refusing sexual advances from a superior employee.

(From Wikipidia)
Sexual harassment is intimidation, bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors.[1] In some contexts or circumstances, sexual harassment may be illegal. It includes a range of behavior from seemingly mild transgressions and annoyances to actual sexual abuse or sexual assault.[2] Sexual harassment is a form of illegal employment discrimination in many countries, and is a form of abuse (sexual and psychological) and bullying. For many businesses, preventing sexual harassment, and defending employees from sexual harassment charges, have become key goals of legal decision-making. In contrast, many scholars complain that sexual harassment in education remains a “forgotten secret,” with educators and administrators refusing to admit the problem exists in their schools, or accept their legal and ethical responsibilities to deal with it (Dziech, 1990).

Types of harassment
There is usually more than one type of harassing behavior present, so a single harasser will often fit more than one category. These are brief summations of each type.
• Power-player – Legally termed “quid pro quo” harassment, these harassers insist on sexual favors in exchange for benefits they can dispense because of their positions in hierarchies: getting or keeping a job, favorable grades, recommendations, credentials, projects, promotion, orders, and other types of opportunities.
• Mother/Father Figure(a.k.a. The Counselor-Helper) – These harassers will try to create mentor-like relationships with their targets, all the while masking their sexual intentions with pretenses towards personal, professional, or academic attention.
• One-of-the-Gang – harassment occurs when groups of men or women embarrass others with lewd comments, physical evaluations, or other unwanted sexual attention. Harassers may act individually in order to belong or impress the others, or groups may gang up on a particular target.
• Serial Harasser – Harassers of this type carefully build up an image so that people would find it hard to believe they would do anyone any harm. They plan their approaches carefully, and strike in private so that it is their word against that of their victims.
• Groper – Whenever the opportunity presents itself, these harassers’ eyes and hands begin to wander, engaging in unwanted physical contact that may start innocuous but lead to worse.
• Opportunist – Opportunist use physical settings and circumstances, or infrequently occurring opportunities, to mask premeditated or intentional sexual behavior towards targets. This will often involve changing the environment in order to minimize inhibitory effects of the workplace or school or taking advantage of physical tasks to ‘accidentally’ grope a target.
• Bully – In this case, sexual harassment is used to punish the victim for some transgression, such as rejection of the harasser’s interest or advances, or making the harasser feel insecure about himself or herself or his or her abilities. The bully uses sexual harassment to put the victim in his or her “proper place.”
• Confidante – Harassers of this type approach subordinates, or students, as equals or friends, sharing about their own life experiences and difficulties, sharing stories to win admiration and sympathy, and inviting subordinates to share theirs so as to make them feel valued and trusted. Soon these relationships move into an intimate domain.
• Situational Harasser – Harassing behavior begins when the perpetrator endures a traumatic event (psychological), or begins to experience very stressful life situations, such as psychological or medical problems, marital problems, or divorce. The harassment will usually stop if the situation changes or the pressures are removed.
• Pest – This is the stereotypical “won’t take ‘no’ for an answer” harasser who persists in hounding a target for attention and dates even after persistent rejections. This behavior is usually misguided, with no malicious intent.
• Great Gallant – This mostly verbal harassment involves excessive compliments and personal comments that focus on appearance and gender, and are out of place or embarrassing to the recipient. Such comments are sometimes accompanied by leering looks.
• Intellectual Seducer – Most often found in educational settings, these harassers will try to use their knowledge and skills as an avenue to gain access to students, or information about students, for sexual purposes. They may require students participate in exercises or “studies” that reveal information about their sexual experiences, preferences, and habits.
• Incompetent – These are socially inept individuals who desire the attentions of their targets, who do not reciprocate these feelings. They may display a sense of entitlement, believing their targets should feel flattered by their attentions. When rejected, this type of harasser may use bullying methods as a form of revenge.
• Stalking – The persistent watching, following, contacting or observing of an individual, sometimes motivated by what the stalker believes to be love, or by sexual obsession, or by anger and hostility.
• Unintentional – Acts or comments of a sexual nature, not intended to harass, can constitute sexual harassment if another person feels uncomfortable with such subjects.

242. brucelevy - December 9, 2009

240. Ames Gilbert

I can’t thank you enough for this. And infinite gratitude to the couple who chose to experience this with you and your lovely wife. I don’t know how it made others feel, but because of my similar experiences with this asshole your story struck very deeply and painfully.

RB deserves his karmic punishment, but you, DC, are the epitome of evil. You’re stand by with your insane rationalizations and reinforce the sickness that exists in the FOF. RB is a sick MF. But your evil spreads to more members than RB’s sexual insanity, as it encompasses everyone you speak to. I’m sure you’re universally reviled by the people you think you are influencing.

I say this with deep conviction, DC fuck you and your lonely twisted life that only spreads your sickness whenever you open your fetid mouth. You deserve yourself.

243. brucelevy - December 9, 2009

240. Ames Gilbert

This would be a very strong post for the GF.

244. brucelevy - December 9, 2009

GF membership…1,002

245. Ames Gilbert - December 10, 2009

If DC is indeed Linda T., then she is IMO one of the last people who would know what a male victim of Burton would truly feel. LT was (is?) one of the enforcers, a member of the police. I also know she was ‘information central’, and being at the center of this particular web gave her a peculiar power. Someone close to me once confided that they were appalled to find out that LT knew something that had been discussed with a couple of other ‘older students’, acting in their official capacities, about a private matter and in the strictest secrecy. LT had somehow gotten hold of this information, and went far out of her way to let my friend know she knew. My friend was horrified to realize that LT seemed to be enjoying herself. From that, I learned to distrust her and avoid her myself. Ditto for many others.
The point of all this is that I doubt that very many men told her what they actually, truly felt. Remember the idea of normalization? In this isolated group, it is normalized that Burton has sex with heterosexual male followers. It is normalized that this provides them with spiritual benefits. I’d bet that anyone talking to LT about sex with Burton would be very, very careful not to step outside the bounds of what passes for normal in the cult, and would certainly not criticize Dear Teacher in front of one of his enforcers.

That said, I have to confess that when I thought of the possibility that DC is LT, I felt a huge wave of pity go through me. I just can’t imagine what it would be like to be DC, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, and certainly anyone I can still put a face to.

246. Opus 111 - December 10, 2009

I personally do not believe for a minute that LT is DC. Nonewithstanding the fact she is mistaken in her allegiance to RB and FOF, LT is smart, savvy often funny and writes well. DC is wooden, his thoughts are mechanical, he is totally humourless.

Not the it should matter to figure out DC identity in the grand scheme of things. His/her true nature is all too obvious and painful to consider.

247. WhaleRider - December 10, 2009

DAILY CARDIAC:

“In 1962, the United States Model Penal Code (MPC) was established and updated the definition of rape. The MPC defined rape as ” A man who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife is guilty of rape if . . . he compels her to submit by force or threat of force or threat of imminent death, serious bodily injury, extreme pain, or Kidnapping” (Epstein & Langenbahn, 1994, p. 7).

In addition to limiting the definition of rape to a crime against a woman, this code was also very narrow because:

It did not acknowledge rape within marriage or co-habiting couples.

It focused on the victim’s consent rather than the perpetrator’s forcible conduct.

In the 1970s and 1980s, extensive rape reform legislation was enacted throughout the country. And the legal definition of rape dramatically changed. Michigan’s 1975 Criminal Sexual Conduct Statute, became the national model for an expanded definition of rape. Today, Illinois’ Criminal Sexual Assault Statute is considered the national model (Epstein & Langenbahn, 1994, p. 8). Both statutes broadly define rape to include ((among other things)):

Gender neutrality, broadening earlier definitions of rape to include men.

Taking advantage of an incapacitated victim. This includes mental illness, victims under the influence of drugs and alcohol.

The fact that well over a million Americans of all ages are raped each year suggests that efforts to prevent rape have not been entirely successful.

Rape is the most underreported crime in America. Most rape cases go unreported (Kilpatrick, Edmunds, & Seymour, 1992; Crowell & Burges, 1996; Ringel, 1996).

In turn, those cases are never investigated or prosecuted. Despite vast improvements in the investigation and prosecution of rape, more are needed. Too few victims who sustain rape-related mental or physical health problems obtain effective treatment.

Sexual Abuse
The Federal Criminal Code definition of sexual abuse includes:

Causing another person to engage in a sexual activity by threatening or placing that person in fear.

Engaging in a sexual act if that person is incapable of declining participation in, or communicating unwillingness to engage in that sexual act.

Abusive Sexual Contact is defined as “when no sexual penetration actually occurred but when the intentional touching…of the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person with an intent to abuse, humiliate, harass, degrade, or arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person occurs.

Why don’t victims report rapes to police?

According to a recent BJS report (1994), attempted crimes and crimes that did not result in physical injuries were less likely to be reported to police than completed crimes or those producing injuries.

Victims of violent crimes who reported said they did so to help prevent future acts of violence and because they thought it was the right thing to do.

A primary reason for not reporting was a victim’s desire to maintain privacy.

by Dean G. Kilpatrick, Ph.D.
National Violence Against Women Prevention Research Center
Medical University of South Carolina

>>>>><<<<<

OK, dc, you win. I take it back. The FOF isn't a Rape Factory in the sense of a place where aggravated or violent rape routinely occurs any more than burton is the brightest light in 2000 years…it's still an ABUSIVE SEXUAL CONTACT INSTITUTION, a SPIRITUAL SPIN SOCIETY, and a FINANCIAL FLEECING ORGANIZATION.

Burton engaged in ABUSIVE SEXUAL CONTACT with me, OK?

I was plied with alcohol in the form of expensive wines during his dinners, isolated, sleep deprived, and was scared shitless…a la EVERY ANGEL IS TERRIBLE, n'est pas?

In my situation, given the imbalance of power between burton and me, I felt incapable of declining participation in, or communicating my unwillingness to engage in sexual acts with him.

Regardless of what you think based upon my accounts, consensual or not, that's the truth of how it felt to me. I felt raped and ashamed. The first time I confided in a girlfriend about what happened, I burst into tears.

For myself, I prefered women in women's bodies then and still do, thank you very much.

As more and more victims come forward, there is gathering evidence suggesting that burton is indeed a sexual predator of young straight men.

Yes, our mutual experience and wisdom has made us equally biased regarding the fate of the Fellowship of Friends AKA Pathway to Presence. (I think our readers can tell.)

I do have great compassion for those suffering from mental illness, however; I do not find them loathsome.

I am also surprised at your response regarding my post 185…I employed your exact reasoning to support the assertion that the FOF is a cult, but I gather your reasoning didn't quite work for you, am I right?

Does that make you the reasonable person you claim to be?

248. Dr. Pangloss - December 10, 2009

246. Opus 111

“I personally do not believe for a minute that LT is DC. Nonewithstanding the fact she is mistaken in her allegiance to RB and FOF, LT is smart, savvy often funny and writes well. DC is wooden, his thoughts are mechanical, he is totally humourless.”

You seem to still harbor some form of admiration for Ms. T.
In fact, she is not smart, saavy, funny and does not write well.
Take a look through the worthless volumes of Mt Carmel and Rennaisance Journals if you want to see results of her “writing”. She was the “editor” who took the transcripts of spoken words at FOF meetings and remade them into repetitive drivel as dictated Burton.
She is only savvy at preserving her place at the FOF trough where she repeatedly returned after failing to support herself with a real job or marriage. She is a lonely pawn who would do anything Burton asked, only to preserve the illusion in her empty heart that he gives a rats ass about her–which he does not. But where does she have to go from here?

That being said, I am also not so sure she is Daily Cardiac. I think the posts by DC are the product of a committee of FOF fools– thus DCs robotic, soulless logic and lack of human conscience.

249. Yesri Baba - December 10, 2009

“I think the posts by DC are the product of a committee of FOF fools– thus DCs robotic, soulless logic and lack of human conscience.”

Me too.

My own personal opinion of LT from distant memory on a scale of 1 to 10- 10 being smart, savvy, funny and 1 being nasty skank bitch she would be about a 1.0000000001.
But who knows, she’s been ‘working on herself’ in the Fellowship of Friends since dirt was invented so you can probably erase everything after the decimal point.

250. Anon E. Mouse - December 10, 2009

Should be (1.0000000001) – (1) = 0.0000000001
Linda Kaplan was pretty darn mean spirited and vainglorious, just like her idol. No one can say her chief feature hasn’t improved after many years of working on herself.

251. Anon E. Mouse - December 10, 2009

It is a sign of remarkable restraint and mercy that Bruce didn’t clock her when he had the right and the chance.
Maybe it would have helped advance her evolution.
Robert Burton has a variation on the assault technique of spiritual awakening.

252. Ill Never Tell - December 10, 2009

242. brucelevy:
‘RB is a sick MF.’

Again, please correction: not MF; cock sucker.
85/232. Ill Never Tell:
‘Remember, please, teacher is not a mother fucker; teacher is a cock sucker. It’s really important to learn those lessons; it’s the oral tradition with direct lineage to the source.’

If DC is, as stated earlier, LT (previously LK, LR, etc.), what can you expect from a person who has spent almost all, if not all, of their adult life fully ensconced in the Fellowship of Friends – Pathway to Presence – brain washing machine – 40 years! ‘Only following orders’ is the motto.

245. Ames Gilbert:
‘LT had somehow gotten hold of this information, and went far out of her way to let my friend know she knew. My friend was horrified to realize that LT seemed to be enjoying herself. From that, I learned to distrust her and avoid her myself. Ditto for many others.’

Again: If DC is, as stated earlier, LT (previously LK, LR, etc.), what can you expect from a queen-of-hearts venus-mercury that is given free reign to access the power structure/hierarchy? Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Expect that sort to be into everybody’s business, and the juicier it is, the better. (For those who do not know what that may mean, think of Elizabeth Taylor, the actress, in her heyday. Or, how about the Queen of the Night from Mozart’s Magic Flute? (Full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing.) Maybe, Wicked Witch of the West from Wizard of Oz? (Throw some water on her and she melts away.) But WhaleRider’s euphemism of Fag Hag also may work.) This kind of behaviour would only defer to the leader’s authority.

But, in all honesty, the queen can be completely the opposite of all of that and be warm, loving, joyful and pleasant. Don’t be deceived.

247. WhaleRider:
‘As more and more victims come forward, there is gathering evidence suggesting that burton is indeed a sexual predator of young straight men.’

It’s called initiation into the oral tradition.

The DC posts may very well be ‘product of a committee of FOF fools.’ If it is, then someone must direct and/or edit the material. The traditional mouth pieces (read, if you will: oral traditionalists) would have to weigh in.

253. WhaleRider - December 10, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

Again I want to reiterate: a modern, wider, more just view of how rape is defined does not focus on whether or not the victim gives consent which is disputable, or who penetrates who, but on the perp’s forcible behavior which is undisputable.

Your FOF morality is antiquated and has failed you.

>>>>><<<<<

In reflecting upon the topic last night it dawned on me that despite my claims of being raped by burton, or at least sexually abused by him, no one, especially on your side of the fence has made any inquiries of how my encounters with burton have affected me all these years one way or the other. I guess, understandably, you don't really care.

I also had the realization last night that I have been a victim of the Stockholm Syndrome.

I distinctly remember thinking soon after leaving the cult that burton was lucky to have done what he did to me instead of someone else psychologically weaker or more emotionally fragile, (such as Brian S. or Troy for example)….That’s what I was thinking…lucky for burton…the perp…lucky for himI was strong and wasn’t going to let what he did affect me.

What was incredible is that I took myself out of the picture…I disassociated from my experience and from the cult and never talked about it…hallmark of trauma leading to a post traumatic stress response…I had buried my feelings, lost empathy for myself and consequently for anyone else left in the FOF. I also started getting migraines about that time.

It always seemed to me that the underlying message in the FOF was, “Every man for himself.” If a close “friend” left the preschool, we were instructed to shun them and use the experience to strengthen our own connection, because the preschool was “quickening its pace”, leaving one to feel fearful that one had better be careful or be left behind. (Remember, rapists use fear as a tatic to get what they want.)

At the time, I had only a dim awareness that others were probably involved in burton’s behind the scenes activities, but nobody talked about it then and, afterall nobody cared to warn me of burton’s darker side anyway, not even my center directors who were indirectly grooming me for the fuck farm. I went into the FOF as consciously as I could, learned what I had to learn about the person running the show and left.

I didn’t care about anyone else but myself. Being intensely close to burton, seeing first hand how he operates, I had unconsciously taken on burton’s narcissism or at least amplified any latent narcissism I already had…the same behavoirs my ex-wife complained about…me being too “controlling and condescending”…sound familar? I have paid dearly for that in the breakup of my family. What have your ex-husbands said about you?

Later, I heard about Thomas E. and his efforts to publicly reveal the truth, but by then I believed I had put the past behind me and moved on sufficiently not to care…kind of how you might feel about me and the many others who have left the FOF.

Yet all this time I kept having reoccurring nightmares of still being in the FOF…of being a part of some kind of “extended inner circle”…I remember it being like I was at a meeting and fearful of my secret being discovered that I hadn’t been paying any membership fees.

On some level, since I had absolved burton of any responsibility for his predatory behavior that made me still complicit in his crime and criminal organization. That was my secret…I still harbored the belief that I was a member.

Then I began reading the blog and about how far burton has regressed into all the shitting, pissing, and masturbating on his followers and taking advantage of vulnerable people from other countries like Russia. How revolting! I finally felt the pain I was in back then and cried. And yes, I got angry, too. I am angry at myself and my own narcissism for not saying anything all these years.

My silence meant others have been abused, and I deeply regret that.

254. Ames Gilbert - December 10, 2009

Whalerider, I have absolutely no doubts that you and Bruce and the man who told me his story in post 240 and so many, many others were raped. I don’t give a fig for what a dry dictionary or even drier legal summaries say. In every case, there is a vast inequality of power. Burton uses psychological force so he can gratify his senses. As I’ve said before, I think that he prefers forcing heterosexual men because he enjoys the mix of force and sex. That makes him a rapist to the core. Burton even uses the shame most men feel in this situation as an added lever (more force) to get further personal satisfaction. Loathsome.
DC and his ilk can rabbit on and on about ‘freedom to say no’, yet they demand that we accept that Burton has powers and abilities that we cannot even begin to comprehend because he claims that he is ‘conscious and not subject to lower laws’. As a previous poster pointed out, if the concept of ‘more conscious’ is to have any meaning at all, it must include caring for those who are in one’s charge or who are in a position of relative weakness to one. This is because any increase in consciousness would go hand in hand with increasing awareness of conscience; conscience would be informing consciousness. Becoming more conscious while a human means becoming more fully human, whatever theoretically might come after death. One measure of Burton’s being is that he takes advantage of the relative weakness of male heterosexual followers to sexually gratify himself without compunction or remorse, so it follows as night follows day that he cannot be conscious.

255. Spock - December 10, 2009

Suggestion. In addition to Fellowship of Friends and Pathway to Presence, it might help to occasionally mention the following names:

– beingpresent.org
– Being Present
– The Art of Divine Presence
– Apollo

Regarding Cardiac’s continuous, relentless denials about Burton and the Fellowship of Friends, Pathway to Presence, beingpresent.org, and the Art of Divine Presence, Apollo, etc. (good god, where do the names end)…

… I sometimes wonder who really cares about DC’s blabbing nonsense. Burton is standing over the metaphorical body with a metaphorical gun in his hand, and then runs from the scene firing at the authorities as they chase him. Guilty? “Well, I don’t know,” DC says. “The victim probably gave his consent.”

Sometimes it’s just common sense that comes to the rescue. No amount of defense attorney mental gymnastics can change what is obvious.

Much more effective than logical arguments by some sort of PR shill are the ingrained thought viruses and passivity in the Fellowship of Friends cult. My sense is that everyone knows. Everyone. Think about that for a moment. But it’s a bit like being a battered wife or husband, unable to move, unable to act.

Thankfully, sometimes having a set of friends who keep hammering away and stating the facts can help a person leave.

256. brucelevy - December 10, 2009

255. Spock

“My sense is that everyone knows. Everyone.”

It’s interesting that when no one knew,except those actually involved, and slowly the news leaked out, it took a specific set of rationalizations and justifications to deal with the possibility, When everyone knows (or at least wonders and suspects) it takes a whole other set of rationalizations and justifications to stay in. My feelings are that NOW, it truly requires self imposed sleep and dishonesty to one’s self to continue and support this farce. The type of people who know and do nothing are people I would never want in my life. I suspect one needs to be a sociopath, a whore or an idiot (or at the least unbearably naive).

257. Silentpurr - December 10, 2009

Linda Kaplin!!!! If DC is she, it must mean that her already well-established feature of NO-SHAME must be MASSIVE by now. 25 years ago she tried to sooth me with “he’s an angel and under higher laws” jargon when I questioned her about WHY Robert was continually trying to convince a dear friend of mine ( a lunar) to admit that he was gay….. Ick, I remember the sliminess of her defense of RB.

258. brucelevy - December 10, 2009

This is from a discussion of narcissism (it was about Tiger Woods)

““Narcissism includes a limited tolerance for limits—‘I should be able to do what I want to do’ and grandiosity—‘I can do whatever I want to do because I’m special.’ What goes hand in hand is, ‘I can get away with it.’”

259. James Mclemore - December 10, 2009

No matter how many times I hear some of the personal stories, they still shake me deeply. Ames’ story of that couple, and WhaleRider’s posts, and then Bruce’s reaction to Ames’ post leave me temporarily speechless. I know that ‘there but for the Grace of God, or dumb luck, go I’.

In the beginning, I think we all hoped and began to ‘believe’ that RB had something. We thought he had something ‘good’ that had to do with the LOVE and with the FREEDOM we had each been seeking in our own way. From the start we accepted that we did not know and that it seemed he might. From that beginning, people paid more money than they could afford, they bought things they should not have bought, they embraced far-fetched ideas they would otherwise not have embraced, they had or did not have relationships based on what RB advised. People gave up their connections to their families. Couples gave up their children. Women had abortions. And worst of all, young men were manipulated and were emotionally painfully indoctrinated into the sexual activities that a very sick Robert Burton craved. They were raped.
We trusted RB, and even though we may have thought what he asked for, whether it be more fine China, or not crossing our legs, or sex with him was weird, strange, painful, and much, much worse, people did them out of innocence and fear because we thought we could ultimately find the LOVE and FREEDOM we were looking for. Burton said we could find those things if we would just do as he asked. We know now of course, that he could not have helped us find those things anyway. I suppose we are responsible for the part where we thought he possibly could help us find what we were looking for. We were naive, gullible and mistaken about him. RB’s responsibility is something much, much different. He knew what people were looking for and he used it against them to get what he selfishly wanted. He realized that the ‘crazy wisdom’ thing was going to work just fine. He could ask anything of people and they would try their best to do as he asked. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FREE WILL AND CHOICES– IT IS THE UGLY MANIPULATION OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE GIVEN THEIR TRUST TO SOMEONE.
I said once, partly in jest, that perhaps DC was so blind they could not really be held responsible for anything. I believe I was mistaken and I apologize for that statement to those who were hurt by Burton. DC is knowingly supporting something, that by now, they at least must suspect to be not just sick or rotten, but a crime against human dignity, and they are still trying to cover it up. They may have some of the same illnesses as does RB, and they may just be hanging on to the only life they know, a life that must surely be, as Bruce remarked, “lonely and twisted”. We may never understand the whole phenomenon of the Fellowship of Friends / Pathway to Presence completely, but the stench and ugliness of it and the pain it has caused to some is indisputable.

260. waskathleenw - December 10, 2009

Bruce, 256
“My feelings are that NOW, it truly requires self imposed sleep and dishonesty to one’s self to continue and support this farce.”

Yes . . . this . . . and if I am a long-term, entrenched member coming to terms with the reality that is FoF, I have this to consider:

I have spent decades believing things that are absurd.
I have been naïve and foolish.
I have supported a criminal.
I buried the ability to think for myself a long time ago.
I may have little in the way of an old age cushion.
If I have lived off the FoF for a long time, I may have no viable resume and little accrued Social Security.
I have been wrong, and I have shunned good friends who tried to open my eyes.
I have given decades to something that apparently is corrupt at the core and has been from the beginning.

Having considered all this . . .

NOW . . . to continue on will require self-imposed sleep and dishonesty to myself to continue and support this farce. Have I got the strength to do otherwise, and if I do, will I survive it?

Not expressing sympathy so much as empathy. I wouldn’t want to be there.

261. Spock - December 11, 2009

waskathleenw, yes, excellent points. I can definitely relate to your empathy. Its’ really a self-imposed trap isn’t it? And I was there, too, so I know exactly what you’re talking about.

However……… there’s a different way to think about it.

Imagine for a moment that a lot of what you just wrote — although coming from a good place — is nothing more than the result of a very important thought virus in the Fellowship of Friends… It’s a thought virus that to leave is difficult, and that the results of leaving are fraught with uncertainty and potentially insurmountable challenges. That I’m too old, not employable enough, not smart enough, not connected enough, don’t have the energy, don’t have the persistence, won’t be able to enjoy my life, that I’m not creative enough to figure it out, not strong enough to persevere, and that the Universe Will Punish Me. That there’s safety in staying, and danger in leaving.

But it’s not true. It’s all part of the deception.

The Universe is abundant and giving. It’s waiting for you. It knows, just like you know, that it’s time to leave. And it will welcome you with open arms. It won’t lie to you — it won’t tell you it will be all fun, and all ease, and all success. But there is ease (rather than dis-ease) and fun, and success outside the walls. There really is happiness, and it’s something good.

Not leaving is just another excuse for not making the leap. It’s another reason not to see that we have the resources, we have the ability, we have the strength, and that we’ll attract what we need in our lives to recover and to thrive — physically, spiritually, emotionally… in all aspects of our lives. I believe we all know this in our hearts. Just as we know that the FOF prevents us from reflecting upon it and actualizing it in our lives.

If people are beginning to figure out that there’s a better, more fulfilling, more conscious life outside the walls (I think they are), that will not be a good thing for Burton’s Syndicate of Lies.

Maybe a few will remain behind. But, ouch, I hate to think what that will be like.

—-

262. Spock - December 11, 2009

James 259…. beautiful.

263. Tatyana - December 11, 2009

Very good heart-felt posts lately, thank you all.

For some reason last a few days I keep bumping into FOF members and old friends I haven’t seen for 1.5 years. They seem content where they are, emotionally warm and open and not too miserable or fearful (at least as far as I can see). I just wonder if there is another “Universal Plan” for those who see things differently than us and not feel the urge to leave FOF.

264. Dr. Pangloss - December 11, 2009

263. Tatyana

Have you ever seen news film of the female followers of cult leader Charles Manson during their trial? They look and act quite blissful and self-confidant, and not too miserable or fearful. Beautiful young girls, so sure of themselves.
I think, those that are still alive, would present a totally different picture today.

265. James Mclemore - December 11, 2009

Hi Tatyana –

“They seem content where they are, emotionally warm and open and not too miserable or fearful”

I am sure there are quite probably some relatively innocent people within the cult. When I say innocent, I only mean they may not know much about Robert Burton and the ways in which he treats and has treated people in the past, and have not seen his dark side. I don’t imagine anyone here pictures all current followers to be either zombie-like or crouched in a corner in fear.

Remember foremost that these friends of yours do not know they are in a cult. If they did they would have already left. They think they are somewhere else. I have no idea where they think they are, and it could be anything from a social club to the only-true-secret-esoteric school on earth with the brightest light in 2000 years leading the way. I repeat, they are in a cult and are brainwashed to some degree and they do not know it. When ‘out’ it looks pretty simple and easy to wonder why people are there. From the inside it looks totally different. What still amazes me and perhaps in the past has comforted me by seeing that I was in damn good company while being conned, is that some of the people who write on this blog and some of those who participate in the discussions on the GF site are some of the most intelligent, funny, and good-hearted people I have run into on this planet. At one time or another they belonged to this very same cult and to some degree bought into the very same bizarre mix of ideas. For most people from what I can tell, and for a huge variety of reasons and circumstances, it was not an easy road that led out of there.

However if they do know what goes on there, and I mean what really goes on and the history of what has gone on there behind closed doors, and they know of the abuses by, and the mental sickness of Robert Burton; if they know people have been manipulated and hurt, and they still choose to support that, then I think the categories or options that Bruce listed earlier are going to apply. Let us hope they fall under the ‘unbearably naive’ category.

Brucelevy (at 256) –
“I suspect one needs to be a sociopath, a whore or an idiot (or at the least unbearably naive).”

266. Daily Cardiac - December 11, 2009

Dr. Pangloss – 264:

“Tatyana

Have you ever seen news film of the female followers of cult leader Charles Manson during their trial? They look and act quite blissful and self-confidant, and not too miserable or fearful. Beautiful young girls, so sure of themselves.
I think, those that are still alive, would present a totally different picture today.”

If you’re trying to make a connection between the members of Manson’s group and the FoF members who Tatyana encounters at the Post office, there is one obvious difference – The people Tatyana refers to have not brutally murdered anyone, so any similar looks of bliss would probably stem from different causes.

267. James Mclemore - December 11, 2009

Yes DC there is that one ‘obvious difference’. But what is most striking, if you study cults and cult behaviors and the leaders of cults, is that the similarities between the two cults actually far outnumber that one difference that you mentioned.

Goldenveil posted a link to documentary on cults about a page ago.
If it were possible for you to watch it with an open mind, which is highly unlikely, you would be stunned.

268. Golden Veil - December 11, 2009

*

Encore:

See this video from the History Channel on cults.
It defines the characteristic cult traits shared by the
Fellowship of Friends, aka Pathways to Presence,
aka The Art of Being Present.

*

269. Anon E. Mouse - December 11, 2009

NewsFlash!!
Spokesperson(s) Deny Involvement with Brutal Murders!
Explaining further It said, “We have an aphorism here at the Palace:
‘Assault is definitely debatable’. Certainly not murder, it can get messy and bloodstains (impressions) are very difficult to remove.”

270. WhaleRider - December 11, 2009

Daily Cardiac:
FYI, the news footage of the Manson followers sitting outside the courthouse where not the ones suspected of brutal murder. Those suspects were in custody.

The “blissful” burton preschool followers that Tayana encountered at the OH post office and the “blissful” Manson followers do share a similar trait: the rapture of surrender to an authority figure.

…and/or they are both on drugs….a fool’s paradise.

271. Dr. Pangloss - December 11, 2009

266. Daily Cardiac

“If you’re trying to make a connection between the members of Manson’s group and the FoF members who Tatyana encounters at the Post office, there is one obvious difference – The people Tatyana refers to have not brutally murdered anyone, so any similar looks of bliss would probably stem from different causes.”

Well,duh! Thanks for stating the obvious.
The point in making a connection is that brainwashed devotees will turn a blind eye to the evils committed by their leader, probably because it is easy and does not disrupt their self-contained little state of “presence”.

272. Silentpurr - December 11, 2009

Daily Cardiac, As you may well know, people under stress do snap at times. Sometimes with disastrous results. Years ago an older ‘student’ was heard boasting that he would KILL to protect RB. I remember naively thinking………… ‘why would anyone want to hurt Robert’? Real or imagined, fear and loathing have taken a seat at the meeting.

273. WhaleRider - December 11, 2009

Trial Vaccine Begins In Northern California

Yuba County (URP!)- In the tiny hamlet of Oregon House volunteers from the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. are lining up like cypress trees to be the first to receive an experimental vaccine for the rare deadly strain of thought virus called, C1B1, which can cause a painful swelling of the critical thought center in the brain.

The last known outbreak in the US was during the second Bush election. Luckily it was contained to highly educated groups of people, particularily liberal Democrats, living along coastal areas and did not infect the religious conservative morons in the heartland.

“Over the past two years, we’ve been losing followers by the droves,” said Daniella Cardiac, spokesfollower for the cult. “It’s really scary. Since the blog, the virus has started to spread in our community like wildfire. Once a follower is infected with increased critical thought, they start thinking for themselves and just disappear. We hope this new injection of fear and rationalization will keep our remaining followers contained and blissfully thought-free.”

Health authorities in Yuba County blame the spike in the virus among the Fellowship Followers due to the isolated nature of the group. “They have been cut off from critical thought for so long that they have lost all of their natural immunity to falsehood and lies,” one health spokesperson reported. “It’s amazing! Right now they’ll believe just about any crap their leader tells them. We think this virus will actually do them some good.”

274. Spock - December 11, 2009

DC: “If you’re trying to make a connection between the members of Manson’s group and the FoF members who Tatyana encounters at the Post office, there is one obvious difference – The people Tatyana refers to have not brutally murdered anyone, so any similar looks of bliss would probably stem from different causes.”

Hopefully, it’ll never come to that, and most of us probably don’t believe it’s possible in the FOF.

Nonetheless, keep this in mind…

“My first exposure to the people of the temple came in 1977, when a handful of defectors agreed to meet me and another San Francisco Examiner reporter at a house in the Haight-Ashbury district. They seemed remarkably normal and idealistic, with dreams of a world free of racism and better lives for themselves and their children. They had jobs. Some were college-educated.

“But they described a closed universe where families were systematically divided, disciplinary beatings were the norm and sexual exploitation by Jones was a dirty secret shared by too many.”

http://www.rickross.com/reference/jonestown/jonestown29.html

“… sexual exploitation by Jones was a dirty secret…”

Now, you can take the comfortable view that the FOF and Jonestown bear no similarities if you want. I recall my dad — many, many years ago — drawing comparisons to Jonestown, and I also recall my denial.

“We’re different.”

Thanks for trying, Dad.

275. Spock - December 11, 2009

Silentpurr: “… people under stress do snap at times. Sometimes with disastrous results.”

Yes. And in my opinion, you can’t fully understand what the FOF is about until you’re able to see the similarities to other cults, and to totalitarian societies — whether it’s Nazi Germany or Louis XIV.

The comparison is in the energy behind the cult — the lack of any concern on the part of the leader for the welfare of those in his care, and his complete nonchalance about harming someone in return for advancing a personal agenda — whether it’s world domination or sexual exploitation on a large scale.

Whatever the final results of the Fellowship of Friends (whether it’s violent ending or quietly going ‘poof’ one day), the energy surrounding this organization is similar to some of the worst aspects of society, which is partly why many of us believe this is a much larger issue than just little old “us”.

Look at these sentences next to each other:

“Robert is centered in the King of Hearts.”
“Robert is very intentional.”
“I was given a ONE-WAY ticket to London and a small amount cash. For the entire trip, I was pressured to submit to oral sex by the horse-mouthed (Robert) Burton. For the first 4 weeks, I refused and was “sent to the back of the bus” while Burton worked on another guy (who also apparently resisted). So I was pressured again and again, until I finally gave up and let him swallow a couple of loads.”


Repeat…

“Robert is centered in the King of Hearts.”
“… until I finally gave up and let him swallow a couple of loads.”

“Robert is centered in the King of Hearts.”
“… until I finally gave up and let him swallow a couple of loads.”

276. Tatyana - December 11, 2009

It is interesting… even in this video posted by Golden Veil it said something about religious tolerance. So, I am confused now. Who has more religious tolerance – the blog or FOF? If FOF is acting as a cult by kicking out those who have difficult questions and do not comply why FOFers are talking to me lately? Is it a change of policy?

By the way, I am not talking about Post Office, I am talking about parties where ex and current members are mixed together in perfect harmony. Who said anything about Post office? I was talking about the party where I was (scared shitless) the only ex and where you, DC (if I know your identity) were also and gave me a nice hug!

Is FOF changed? Is it capable of changing in an honest and spiritual organization?

277. Walter Tanner - December 11, 2009

Nice, Spock:

“Not leaving is just another excuse for not making the leap. It’s another reason not to see that we have the resources, we have the ability, we have the strength, and that we’ll attract what we need in our lives to recover and to thrive — physically, spiritually, emotionally… in all aspects of our lives.”

Right, you either wake-up and leave or you stay asleep, continuously using a work language about waking up….it really is a deliciously genius scam, I am blessed and highly favored to have been able to see through it. Even though I have friends who never joined a cult, they believe in things like Obama, equally ridiculous:

“Looking at the AMA Report’s numbers it’s a safe bet to say that somewhere in the world, even as Obama invoked Martin Luther King and the peacelovers, some kids the same age as his own two daughters were killed or crippled by a landmine.”

From: http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn12112009.html

Tatyana says

“I just wonder if there is another “Universal Plan” for those who see things differently than us and not feel the urge to leave FOF.”

I think a lot of them are hoping REB “joins the angels” ASAP so that they can promptly cannonize him as a world saint and turn the FoF into a real Scientology-style religious organization. With REB gone there would be none of that horsing around and the whole thing can be run like a corporation…happened to Krishnamurti, Muktanananda and how many others?

Like the winery, I don’t think it will be successful in this case.

Tanner
walter.tanner@gmail.com

278. X-ray - December 11, 2009

243. brucelevy – December 9, 2009

240. Ames Gilbert

This would be a very strong post for the GF.

Yes, I think so too, Ames. It will be strong.
By the way, is any one has a copy and can repost that shocking post from 2007 by the ‘inner circle facts’? It would sound stronger now.

279. JB - December 11, 2009

Tatyana

“They seem content where they are”
When people are Drugged then they are content where they are. The problem is that they are dependent on the drug (higher states, receptions etc) so they need to stay close to the source.

280. Spock - December 11, 2009

“By the way, is any one has a copy and can repost that shocking post from 2007 by the ‘inner circle facts’? It would sound stronger now.”

http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2006/04/16/fellowship-of-friends-a-cult-for-intellectuals/#comment-2560

281. brucelevy - December 11, 2009

276. Tatyana

There still seems to be a part of you that doubts what you obviously know about the FOF. Like one foot still “in”. It’s like a abused spouse or someone who requires a co-dependent relationship for one’s own worth. I hope I’m not mixing you up with another poster, but didn’t you reveal some pretty horrendous scenarios between you and your husband, the FOF and a child?

Do you actually think that a quasi-positive response to you by memebers might indicate that things are “changing”? If you do, I would put you in the “unbearably naive” catagory.

282. Spock - December 11, 2009

I agree with Bruce’s impression above. It’s good that several people here have well-developed FOF-BS Detectors and are willing to use them, because it’s sometimes hard for many of us to put our FOF-BS Detectors to good use. Browsing the blog occasionally, as well as the GF site, I see the same naivete in other posters as well… and unfortunately when I look back, I can see the same in myself, Tatyana, so it’s definitely not just you.

It’s articulated differently for different people. For me, it was a sense that the FOF might do some good in the world one day despite Burton, or that the “school was helping people wake up” despite Burton, or that maybe he’s just going insane and is someone to feel sorry for, but ultimately deep inside he means well, blah blah.

This sort of thinking is not unusual for current and former cult members. It takes a while for some — they leave, but they also look for the positive in the experience. Just as writing checks does not magically give you access to the Angels, not writing checks doesn’t give you automatic full-blown awareness of the evil radiating from Burton, how sick he is, and how the FOF is a trap for fools and for the naive.

The only positive in the FOF experience that I can detect is that it taught me to recognize thought viruses, and to recognize the value of my gut feelings/intuition… what we often called the King of Clubs in the FOF, but it’s actually something much more than that — what I think is a collaboration between our King of Clubs (if that actually exists), and our King of Hearts (if that actually exists), and our direct experience in the world. This I’m finding has been a very valuable experience for me — I’m learning to trust that and use it.

And I think Bruce’s FOF-BS Detector is a major, major part of that.

In the FOF I was taught to mistrust it. Because Burton had to teach us that — He had to teach us to mistrust our Selves (ironic isn’t it?), or we’d start catching on en masse.

So, Tatyana, the FOF will change into an “honest and spiritual organization” one day — but only when it destroys itself and people begin reconnecting with each other and the world. I do believe we’ll come out of it stronger, but only to the extent we drop our naivete about Burton, the FOF, and how insane we were to participate.

283. James Mclemore - December 11, 2009

Tatyana –

It is odd. I read your last post just before going in to take a shower. While in the shower I began seeing that I was worried about you. Out of the shower and rechecking the blog, there was Bruce, saying something very close to what I was thinking. It feels as if inbetween your words I can hear that there is still the idea that there may be something of value in the FOF. While I can assure you there is not, nobody else can know that for you. Think back and remember what you have seen and why you left. If you are still pulled by Fourth Way ideas, there are other places to investigate them. I personally would suggest to at least temporarily drop all of that, and just see what life brings to you. Everyone has need of friends, but you do not need a group or school of any kind to teach you who you are and how to fully live a life. No matter how it may appear at different times to different parts of yourself, remember that you clearly saw once that the FOF is toxic.

284. Golden Veil - December 11, 2009

*

276. Tatyana

Some thoughts about attending parties with current members:

Many types of people are drawn to the Fellowship of Friends. With out doubt the one thing they all initially must share is the desire to be in a group, albeit a small study group. As members learn more of the extent of the Fellowship of Friends, the international centers and so forth, it generates a positive impression. They then become aware that they have become a citizen of what is in fact a small country; they become inhabitants of the Fellowship of Friends.

Whether members are accustomed to beauty, or feel a need to educate themselves in beauty, there is a place for everyone.
There seems to be a tenderness amongst the members that evidently is prevailing; consideration and sweetness is extended even to ex-members such as yourself, though it is contrary to the direction of Robert Burton. Surrounded by such niceties, and lovely international inhabitants, it is no wonder that the members do not want to think about their exorbitant payments and what the money supports; the temple of perversity that Apollo / Isis has been for so many years.

That the so-called “brainwashing” does prevail years later as ex-‘students’ still ‘photograph’ one another and identify ‘body types’, for example on this blog, is a reality.

It is nice that you are able to move in circles with current members. You do not have a sensation of having been excommunicated. Relationships prevail between some ‘students’ and ex-‘students’ such as yourself, yes; but not all ex-‘students’ are able to enjoy the comradery that you do. I feel that it some cases it must be for reason of their particular personality and level of sociability; but in other cases for the reason of their extreme suffering due to the sexual abuse that they received during their time of close physical proximity to Robert Burton. Even though they would perhaps like to still have a relationship with current ‘students’, if those current ‘students’ do not recognize that there was something wrong, even evil in the treatment of these ex ‘students’; or do not acknowledge any wrongs and completely suppress any recognition or possible discussion of them, it is not possible for these ex-‘students’ to enjoy themselves at parties. It is too painful for them to have their suffering completely denied.

The ties forged at the Fellowship of Friends are strong, even after they have been severed. For some it is like surviving a kind of shared personal hell; for others a shared nostalgia for the beautiful times prevail. For many, it is perhaps a combination of the two; that would be a perfectly understandable and normal way to feel.

In light of those who have suffered, it must be difficult to maintain the little niceties and small talk; to not ask questions at the party… I wonder what kind of response you get, when you ask if they know about what is going on behind the closed doors of Apollo / Isis?

*

285. Silentpurr - December 11, 2009

Bruce, do you remember the ‘For Their Own Good’ stance to be taken upon a chance meeting with a former student? In Carmel Robert was ‘shaken’ by the sudden departure of J-m-s G—y, a fine friend and strong student. Robert reminded us that to help that xstudent’s work and the possibility of their return, it would be best, for them to be invisible to us. Passing him in the Village, I can remember ‘looking’ through, instead of exchanging a smile. An embarrassment I carry
still.
Tatanya, Your old fellowship friends are intentionally keeping you at an emotional distance in the belief that they are helping you.

286. brucelevy - December 12, 2009

283. Silentpurr

Of course I remember. I tried, when I remembered, to add that one to the list of rules I didn’t generally follow (unless it was someone I didn’t like while they were “in” either). But I also have shameful episodes of being a jonnie-be-goode student on occasion.

287. James Mclemore - December 12, 2009

Music brought to you by associative thinking…………

The music is broken up with some commentary, but I liked it because of the age of the performance. I was 13 in 1958 and he is one of the main reasons I wanted to learn to play the guitar. It was the same for others obviously.

288. Spock - December 12, 2009

a quotation:
“I only allow that which is good into my life. No one can depress you. No one can make you anxious. No one can hurt your feelings. No one can make you anything other than what you allow.”

289. Tatyana - December 12, 2009

I appreciate your kind concern for me, but I don’t think I am in danger of being brainwashed or pulled back.

However I believe in people. I believe in friends. I think as students keep leaving FOF this is a very common situation in Oregon House – families and couples, friends and co-workers learning to co-exist with different spiritual systems/believes/religions – whatever you call it.

We are human and we need friends and emotional support. In fact those who are considering to leave afraid to be left lonely and unsupported. Maybe because we believed that it IS a Fellowship of Friends, or may be we indeed had many friends. In my case I am learning how to separate my need for socializing and my real friendship with people I love and care for.

I just felt that there is this manipulation on both sides – FOF is manipulating ex-members to re-join by ex-communicating them, and blog manipulates those who are in to leave through shame and ridicule. To me recognizing the humanness and openness to an individual experience, relationship or understanding is a better and more truthful way.

Maybe if the real dialog can begin and the real issues can be addressed it will change both sides for the best.

290. Golden Veil - December 12, 2009

*

Regarding 287:

What is the real dialogue?

What are the real issues to be addressed?

What kind of change is best for both ‘sides’ ?

*

291. arthur - December 12, 2009

I remember that “for their own good” (in retrospect garbage). It made some people ashamed and needing to hide or run away.

So, you come to your non-senses and reenter the Queen’s Hive. For what to be a drone?

292. Silentpurr - December 12, 2009

There can be a sense of being on the outside of the glass, especially around the holidays.You may be tempted to suffer, but don’t waste energy. You can,however, strengthen your resolve to always select from the highest right in living your life. Surround yourself with what pleases you, beauty and order. The Fellowship doesn’t possess beauty, only the appearance of beauty. Look what you have! Your dignity. your friends who may look to you as a role model of how to survive. AND you have the Truth in knowing the choices you’ve made come from a genuine place in yourself, the magnetic center which brought you, and that rejected lies and false teachings. you haven’t lost anything! Lovely Tatanya

293. James Mclemore - December 12, 2009

Tatyana –

I am truly glad to hear you say you are in no danger of returning to the FOF.
I generally try my best not to tell someone else what I think they ‘should’ do, especially someone I do not even know. Having said that, and knowing it may not only sound, but be quite presumptious on my part to say, I would advise you to drop those questions that GoldenVeil condensed for you, and that you seem to be entertaining right now. Hang on to that beautiful belief you have in people and in friendships, but as for the questions, just lay them aside for a bit. If they are truly questions that need your answer they will cycle back on their own and perhaps in a different form. I personally do not believe those questions are answerable in the way you may be thinking, but even if they were, I truly do not think they are relevant to your own healing process right now. Give the huge change you have undertaken a little more time to unfold.

Silentpurr’s message is wonderful. I would take it to heart.

The best of wishes to you Tatyana

294. Tatyana - December 12, 2009

I was listening today on a CD for about 4 hours the Christian dude with PHd who was debating the “facts” of the Da Vinci code. I found it amusing. The guy has a Phd in Jesus Christ! He sounds like DC with a PHd in FOF.

And a day before I was listening to Alan Watt’s CD. And I found that amusing as well. Especially the part when he talks about death. It never occurred to me before that death is like what was before life, that we know how it feels not to be. Because before we were we were not. I tried to remember as far as I could my appearance in life and I found out that I was the same person when I was in the cradle. I did not have friends, relationships, God, any system or point of view – all I had was me in the room in the bed, with the pillow with needlepoint hearts holding hands and a tiger hanging on the wall. It was enough.

Since then so many things happened. I grew up. I started thinking about the meaning of life and the God and self-improvement. But every time I go back to that state of simple being, simple existing, all I find is that I don’t know anything, and I am amused by people who claim to know stuff – about the Universe and the God(s).

I believe (I don’t know for sure) is that one day I will die (I’ve seen people die). I think essentially all people have the same problems as me – we don’t now much and we are mortal. All we have is this experience of being alive and we can make the best of it, or waste it.

295. Golden Veil - December 12, 2009

*

This is real dialogue.

These are the issues.

We will find the changes are for the best.

*

296. Tatyana - December 12, 2009

288

the real dialog is instead of exchanging dogmas and learned systems to exchange the real problems, questions, experiences.

the real issues are that people who joined FOF were looking for something, they put their trust into organization that failed them, and buffers and excuses don’t help to resolve this. FOF has to have guts to address it. And the blog has to have guts to give them a chance to talk.

the good what can come out of it is that both sides can learn something new. Like when two people who hate each other because of the wrong doing or misunderstanding- can communicate and understand and forgive and heal. We all made mistakes and we all know what it means to change. I do. I changed a lot because of this blog. Because I took your experiences and corrections seriously.

thank you!

If I can, other people can.

297. Daily Cardiac - December 12, 2009

WhaleRider – 253:

“In reflecting upon the topic last night it dawned on me that despite my claims of being raped by burton, or at least sexually abused by him, no one, especially on your side of the fence has made any inquiries of how my encounters with burton have affected me all these years one way or the other. I guess, understandably, you don’t really care.”

For one thing, there’s only one of me, and about 20 or so “on your side of the fence”; I can’t speak for them. But you’re right, I didn’t inquire. Maybe I should have. But you come on to me pretty strongly and for what it’s worth it doesn’t elicit an automatic response of sympathy. I’m not saying that’s a good reason to not have inquired further, but that’s how it happened this time around.

Regarding the information about Rape and Sexual Abuse you posted in #253, it’s good people are at least looking up the laws. However it still all comes down to interpretation. You will read laws (or interpretations of laws) and interpret them to show that RB rapes and/or abuses. I will be inclined to find an interpretation to show otherwise. Aside from our present leanings the actual laws exist, which do not morph, for the sake of it, into anyone’s interpretations. They remain fixed until changed in courts or legislatures.

So I can give my interpretations for Rape or Sexual Harassment /Abuse and you can give yours.

The key word you seem not interested in hearing about is Consent. In areas of sexual abuse or rape Consent, or lack of consent, is the key issue that trumps all other issues.

If I understand your position you are basically saying that because of RB’s position as teacher he has an unfair advantage for using persuasion or suggestions in order to get people to give in or comply with his wishes. But the law does not recognize that concept in many instances. Consent trumps any advantageous status or power as far as the law is concerned. You might not like to hear that but that’s the way it works.

Interestingly, the people who instituted the laws of rape and sexual abuse / harassment did not recognize certain components that you insist should be part of the mix.The law makers did not recognize certain realities that you contest are part of the issue, such as various pressures people are under in certain moments – inner considering, fear of failure, fear of disappointing an authority figure, but most of all the lawmakers did not recognize the reality that most men do not possess real will; men know right from wrong, or what is against their nature or not against it, but often men cannot hold to their own principles or convictions for lack of will.

The courts do not recognize lack of will when consent is involved as consent trumps these other nuances. There is a good reason why consent trumps all else in these matters; because otherwise there would be no way of protecting the accused. Keep in mind all laws are created to equally protect both the victim and the accused. Most ex members do not cede this right to RB, but the law would. If the courts did not grant equal rights to both accused and accuser just think how easy it would be to point a finger and say “He/she raped me”, or “he/she abused me.”

As an example if RB would tell people “either have sex with me or else I’ll have you removed from the FoF.” This would be clear harassment as he would be imposing his will (outside of a spiritual context.) But if he tells someone that sex with him would “advance your evolution” this is not harassment. It is more a deal, an arrangement. Something is being offered, not taken away, and the individual considers whether they want to accept the offer or not; accept the truth of it or not, accept whether it is important to them or not. I’m using this comment of “advancing one’s evolution” as Ames focused on it in one of his recent posts. Personally I don’t believe it is something Robert would say, as he knows better than I that having sex with anyone does not directly change anything, or advance anything. I do accept that making a certain effort (which might include participating in sex ) could directly lead to a change of being in some cases.

In this case it cannot be proven whether RB’s comment is true or not, and the courts would acknowledge that uncertainty. If RB were to be heard telling someone that he himself does not believe the sex was advancing anyone’s evolution and that he only said it to procure sex that would be a different issue altogether. Of course it would have to be proved that he actually said something like that.

If a superior tells an underling (no pun intended) that if they do not have sex the underling might lose their position or be passed over for promotion this is sexual harassment. If a superior gives an expensive gift to an underling and it helps sway them to have sex it is seen as a consensual act. If an underling has sex with a superior, not because they want to but because they inner consider, or imagine something bad will happen if they don’t, it is still consent.

Generally with abuse something is taken away, withheld. When someone persuades another to have sex it is not seen as harassment or abuse. There may be exceptions but this is a general rule.

Suppose a man meets a married woman in a bar and she has had a few drinks, her guard is down and after turning down the man’s offer to come back to his place a few times she finally gives in and goes with him. He promises her everything will be fine she won’t regret it but will always remember it as an exciting moment in her life. After the sex she is filled with remorse, she tells her husband, he leaves her, they divorce, her life is wrecked.

It’s unfortunate, but it still remains what it was, consensual sex.

Ames says that most individuals don’t want to have sex with RB. If true that only empowers them all the more. That would mean they have something RB wants, and if he has something they want (maybe not sex, but something else) a bargain can be reached. This is all the more reason to assume consent was given. What happens often is that when we feel connected with something or someone we give consent, and later if the relationship changes, sours, we feel cheated or violated. That’s when the mind can start forgetting what we might have wanted out of the arrangement in the first place.

If persuasion alone were ever mistaken for abuse, or considered abuse, the jails would not be able to hold all the violators; they would outnumber those not in jail. No one on this blog would want to live in such a state.

The lesson in all of this is to protect your free will; do not give it away unless you are sure about the situation, and if you proceed try to be honest enough to remember what you freely gave away and not be a revisionist later on about what happened.

298. Opus 111oasts - December 12, 2009

DC

“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive”

Let me ask you then, since you are in the mood for interpretations:

How would you present the behaviour of your spiritual leader to a curious prospective soul, young heterosexual male, who inquires about the seemingly insatiable sexual appetite of the leader for young men? his constantly being surrounded by half a dozen of frightened looking young men; his widely reported boasting about being able to “consume” one hundred in one night; his admission to his private “darlings” that, if not for them, he probably could not go on with [the charade] (my words).

Would you qualify this as the highly probable manifestation of enlightenment? Would you call it conscious love? Would you say that in all likelihood, given its prevalence and its conscious origin, it promotes the evolution of the participants? If not, why? If it does not help the evolution of the participants, why would the beloved teacher spend so much of his time and energy at it? Has he not said on many an occasion that it is vital for “students” to limit their activities to those beneficial to their evolution?

If it is not legal rape, is it spiritual rape? What is it?

299. Dr. Pangloss - December 12, 2009

295. Daily Cardiac

Well, you aren’t an attorney, are you DC? Unless you are correspondence school lawyer David Springhead. Your logic does not apply to civil suits. The FOF has a history of caving-in and settling civil suits out of court and there are plenty of lawyers specializing in sexual harassment in the workplace who would jump all over a case they think they could profit from. Reasonable doubt does not apply to civil cases. Public sentiment and testimony by a sympathetic plaintiff can convince a jury to make a big judgment in a sleazy civil suit. Just look at the O.J. Simpson civil judgment.

300. Dr. Pangloss - December 12, 2009

295. Daily Cardiac
“Suppose a man meets a married woman in a bar and she has had a few drinks, her guard is down and after turning down the man’s offer to come back to his place a few times she finally gives in and goes with him. He promises her everything will be fine she won’t regret it but will always remember it as an exciting moment in her life. After the sex she is filled with remorse, she tells her husband, he leaves her, they divorce, her life is wrecked.”

Sounds like the story of Linda T.’s love life.

301. Golden Veil - December 12, 2009

*

Regarding 295. Daily Cardiac

We can either treat other people as objects of our calculation,

exploitation and consumption, or we can see other people as we

see ourselves. All great religions more or less embody the latter

ethic ~ like the Christian ‘Golden Rule’ ~ “Do unto others as you

would have them do unto you”.

As Robert Burton holds a position of authority, and within the

Fellowship of Friends is considered Divine and a Conscious Being,

his use of followers for sexual satisfaction is a clear breach of

trust. By virtue of his elevated standing in the Fellowship of

Friends his sexual pursuit of his followers is ethically wrong

because it is inherently coercive.

This is sexual misconduct of the highest order because in order to

achieve success Robert Burton utilizes intoxication, manipulation,

and deceit ~ conduct that therefore leads to suffering and trouble.

As his followers are subordinate to him they are unable to give

proper consent to his sexual advances because of fear of possible

repercussions. In contrast, good sexual conduct is based on loving

kindness, generosity, honesty, and mental and emotional clarity ~

conduct that has positive results and not possible in a Divine

‘Teacher’ / ‘Student’ environment where a power relationship is

prevalent.

It is clear to me from reading the personal accounts on this blog

that Robert Burton has immorally taken advantage of his position

of power and authority to coerce many of his male followers into

having [what they consider] obscene sexual practices with him.

*

302. James Mclemore - December 12, 2009

GoldenVeil wrote –

“good sexual conduct is based on loving kindness, generosity, honesty, and mental and emotional clarity”

KINDNESS

And to repeat again and again, we are not talking about ‘free will’, or ‘choices’ or ‘consent’. DC would like to draw peoples attention to only one side of the equation and then try to find something negligent there, when it is on the other side that something is horribly wrong. On one side there is an innocent trust and on the other side there is the ugly violation of that trust. Forget the legal definitions. The real laws that are glaringly obvious are the laws GoldenVeil is speaking of, and that have been broken time and again by Robert Burton. One of those laws is well known to open-hearted and gentle people everyhere and it is the simple law of KINDNESS. When you know that another human being is in a vulnerable place, you do not take advantage of them.

This is about a supposed ‘spiritual’ leader and what he does to parts of his ‘flock’. Instead of caring for them with kindness, knowing them to be very vulnerable in their relationship to him, he takes advantage of that vulnerability for his own selfish desires, and with seemingly no remorse.

303. fofblogmoderator - December 12, 2009

277, 279 & 298 are new

304. fofblogmoderator - December 12, 2009

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