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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion- Part 85 October 30, 2009

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. Yesri Baba - October 30, 2009

AS PRESS

In a press release early this morning doctors at Johns Hopkins Medical Center revealed details of a bizarre case. “This is just one more example of the cruel vagaries of nature” exclaimed head surgeon Vonechu Tuggamypudda.

Late last evening a baby was born lacking the lower portion of the alimentary canal. It survived only minutes outside the womb but for this brief time there was a surplus of opinions in the world. “It seems sad but it is for the best… if it had survived it would have ended up like everyone else” Mr Pudda mused.

———

please feel free to offer yours! ( opinion that is – you’re not in the fof anymore.)

2. dragon - October 30, 2009

nige:

“When you Truly achieve Divine Presence, you become Divinity; then the World, Life and the Universe speak to You of Right and Conscienable Action, WHICH YOU MUST UNDERTAKE.”

—————————-

That may be seen as carte blanche to act outside the law of every conutry, every community.

“I am that”, I am DIVINITY…..

“I am that”, I am ETERNITY…

“I am that”, I am INFINITY

3. dragon - October 30, 2009

nige, the song of GURU BOB:

infinity:

4. WhaleRider - October 30, 2009

The By-Stander Effect

The more people who witness a crime, the less likely anyone will report it.

5. nige - October 30, 2009

2 dragon

Nirvana (feminine)…..

From the Sanskrit word meaning ‘extinction’ used in Buddhism and Hinduism to refer to the desirable ultimate state of absorption into the ground of all being. This one word is underpinned by the three temporary states of being – Dharma, the law of action, Karma, the law of what that action attracts and Samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth.

6. WhaleRider - October 31, 2009

Groupthink

Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. Individual creativity, uniqueness, and independent thinking are lost in the pursuit of group cohesiveness, as are the advantages of reasonable balance in choice and thought that might normally be obtained by making decisions as a group.

During groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking. A variety of motives for this may exist such as a desire to avoid being seen as foolish, or a desire to avoid embarrassing or angering other members of the group. Groupthink may cause groups to make hasty, irrational decisions, where individual doubts are set aside, for fear of upsetting the group’s balance.

From Wikipedia.

7. WhaleRider - October 31, 2009

Groupthink Symptoms

To make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms indicative of groupthink (1977).

1.Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.

2.Rationalizing warnings that might challenge the group’s assumptions.

3.Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions. ((or the actions of their cult leader))

4.Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, disfigured, impotent, or stupid.

5.Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of “disloyalty”. ((or lack of valuation))

6.Self censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.

7.Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement. ((wordless breaths))

8.Mind guards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information. ((Daily Cardiac))

Groupthink, resulting from the symptoms listed above, results in defective decision making.

From Wikipedia

8. dragon - October 31, 2009

5. Hi nige,

Even if it is a totally different world, I like to relax sometimes with the ideas of Daniel Pinchbeck and others.

One statement about Daniel:

“Daniel doesn’t pretend to know what exactly will happen in 2012, but he does believe that no one person has all the answers, and that we each need each other.”

http://www.realitysandwich.com/Boulder_Mt_Retreat_09

I think it is a nice statement.

To say: I don’t know everything. I am human. I must be mistaken…and to know….
I am NO GURU….

9. James Mclemore - October 31, 2009

When told the reason for daylight saving time the old Indian said,
“Only the Government would believe that you could cut a foot off
the top of a blanket, sew it to the bottom, and have a longer blanket.”

10. Ames Gilbert - October 31, 2009

Nirvana: from the Sanskrit meaning ‘unverifiable bullshit’. A copout for those who yearn to escape from the present and the circumstances of their lives. Underpinned with three supporting words that indicate unverifiable but ‘truthy’ sounding “laws”, which provide meaning to those who don’t have the courage to face the void, the unknown. These supposed laws also allow for the insertion of authoritarian worldviews and the accompanying intermediaries to explain it all.
Warning: any energy given in this direction also gives away your power to some belief system or some person. You can be 99% sure that this is a one-way transfer.

11. nige - November 1, 2009

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

12. WhaleRider - November 2, 2009

Patent on Present Denied, Cult Vows Appeal

Oregon House (URP!)- Much to the chagrin of the media shy Fellowship of Friends, Inc. a California Pseudo-Religious Corporation, AKA Pathway to Presence, the US Patent and Trademark Office has denied issuing a patent on the present as requested by the group. Some members of the group were reportedly humbled by the decision, others vowed to appeal.

“It’s one of the silliest patent applications I have ever seen,” stated Neegate Grupthinc, the reviewing attorney assigned to the case. “There is no compelling evidence whatsoever that their group is the only organization in the world that possesses the exclusive keys to the present. Where’s their common sense? Nobody can patent the present! It’s like trying to patent breathing, for goodness sake. They didn’t invent anything new, the present just is. And the notion that rhino poop depicted in prehistoric cave paintings somehow substantiates their claim to the present is just plain bad science and frankly, an insult to my intelligence!”

In a telephone interview today Daniel Cardiac, spokesfollower for the cult, had this to say, “Our leader says that he is the one and only person on the planet who is completely and 100% present, and every time I am lucky enough to be near him I get tingly shivers down my spine. So in my uncritical opinion, he’s the real deal! I can tell he’s just…well, so conscious and everything…he’s always smiling…and so happy and gay and rich that I, we believe everything he says!”

When confronted by ex-followers in public about the Fellowship’s fraudulent claims and asked about his feelings when he heard the news that the present is not the exclusive property of the group, Cardiac extended his hand in front of his face, touched the tip of his nose with his thumb, symbolically held his four fingers high and stated, “Neener, neener, neener! I am rubber; you are glue. Anything you say bounces off my buffers and sticks to you!”

Ex-followers were not amused by Cardiac’s response.

13. Lisa - November 2, 2009

“My own personal belief / opinion / understanding, call it what you will, is that a teacher having consensual sex with a disciple is not grounds for concern and is certainly not grounds for leaving a school that is otherwise delivering on what it promised, which is relevant in my case and in the cases of many other current students. On the other hand, if the school is not delivering on what it promised to someone, whether real or perceived, no amount of “above board” action by the teacher will suffice.”

“I also understand that some others on this blog do not consider Robert’s actions in relation to sex with members as being consensual, but that’s another, entirely independent, issue.”

* * *

Dear ‘Disciple’ Daily Cardiac,

Aristotle said, “Teaching is the highest form of understanding.”

What pinnacles of wisdom and understanding have been reached by ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton; taking as advice the words of great philosophers and transmitting their wisdom to his ‘Disciples’.

Words such as those said by the great epic poet Homer, who said, “There is nothing nobler or more admirable than when two people who see eye to eye keep house as man and wife, confounding their enemies and delighting their friends.”

When ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton directed his ‘Disciples’ or ‘Students’ that were in relationships to either part or marry, surely he was condoning the marital union of a man and a woman. Why else would he give this kind of direction to couples unless he felt that there was a mutually positive benefit for them in a monogamous marriage? After all, he did not say, “‘Students’ in a relationship: part and go live separately from one another.”

How can we ever think with our minds, feel with our hearts or in our guts, instinctively consider that ‘The Teacher” Robert Burton is a man with higher being when he loves [and I think this is the right word to use] his devoted ‘Students’ so little? I say so little because he must not consider their emotional wellbeing at all, in order to establish these recurring exercises of fellatio with them, many of them not homosexual like himself, some of them underage (there is a reason for the term underage, you know), some of them married, and all of them in a relationship subordinate to him, him being ‘The Teacher’, and they being the ‘Student’.

Especially because ‘The Teacher” Robert Burton is in a position of authority, and in the words of his ‘Students’, ‘revered almost like
a god’, this type of sexual liaison is wrong. To utilize these ‘Students’ to obtain sexual satisfaction is not only a perversion, but in the instances of coerced sexual relations with his employees, or those underage, he commits criminal offenses that are punishable by law.

‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton is pervertedly and criminally inconsiderate of the ‘Students’ who he should love and wish the best for; instead he inconsiderately coerces the students to be disloyal to their loved ones, and if married, coerces the students to commit adultery. In some instances, he goes so far as to send his sexual toy’s loved one away to a faraway teaching center.

How highly evolved the ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton is, is a moot point. He commits sins and crimes in the name of ‘C Influence’.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus said “History is philosophy teaching by example.”

When we look at the history of the ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton’s propensity for utilizing his ‘Students’, many of whom are heterosexual and in established pre-existing relationships, for his own sexual gratification, what exactly are we being taught by his example?

I spent some time in the FOF ivory tower and worked on diminishing my unnecessary suffering. I spent months working with fellow ‘Students’ with whom I shared a special understanding of the meaning of presence and sleep [even though many of their and my own ‘photographs’ were a source of suffering]. They told me that they thought I was a ‘King of Hearts”. I think it was said that ‘The ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton was also a ‘King of Hearts”. Tell me, how can a ‘King of Hearts’ do such ugly acts and be the source of such great pain? The sexually abused are always severely harmed.

Artists and musicians find inspiration not only in the works of previous masters, nature, and the cosmos ~ they create works with their IMAGINATION. Positive and negative imagination are IMAGINATION. The ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton is a ‘King of Hearts’…that’s IMAGINATION. Is he DIVIDING HIS ATTENTION when he has the ‘Student’s’ member in his mouth?

By the way, the idea that all the ‘Teacher’ ~ ‘Student’ fellatio is consensual is laughable. Yeah, it’s about as consensual as director Roman Polanski performing cunnilingus on the 13 year old actress.

And PROSTITUTION is alive and well at Apollo in Oregon House.

I recommend that all ‘Students’, read the wise words of silentpurr:

Posted on October 24, 2009 by silentpurr [Part 84/250]

Daily Cardiac, I am wondering why you visit this blog? I myself do because I have an interest in spontaneous and honest dialog with people with whom I share an unusual history. When in the Fellowship, I valued and appreciated the efforts that ’students’ made to stay. As the integrity of the ’school’ began to fail, I am certain that the people most dedicated to TRUTH had no alternative but to leave. You will find many of them posting on this blog. I am sure that some would meet with you face to face if you needed. What is left of the Fellowship has the spiritual efficiency of a 1962 Lincoln Continental. No one wants it except the fearful ones. Get out while you can. We all did and survived the leap into the unknown. There is a net (network) here now.

14. Lisa - November 2, 2009

Dear WhaleRider,

I feel that someone must compliment you on your wry and funny writing. Your pieces on the Patenting of Presence and the banning of the Phalluship from the island of Cyprus are both truly magnificent examples of the creative transformation of negative emotion into brilliantly funny and topical cult criticism.

* Lisa *

15. GoldenVeil - November 2, 2009

Posted on October 11, 2009 by Daily Cardiac

“My own personal belief / opinion / understanding, call it what you will, is that a teacher having consensual sex with a disciple is not grounds for concern and is certainly not grounds for leaving a school that is otherwise delivering on what it promised, which is relevant in my case and in the cases of many other current students. On the other hand, if the school is not delivering on what it promised to someone, whether real or perceived, no amount of “above board” action by the teacher will suffice.”

“I also understand that some others on this blog do not consider Robert’s actions in relation to sex with members as being consensual, but that’s another, entirely independent, issue.”

* * *

Dear ‘Disciple’ Daily Cardiac,

Aristotle said, “Teaching is the highest form of understanding.”

What pinnacles of wisdom and understanding have been reached by ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton; taking as advice the words of great philosophers and transmitting their wisdom to his ‘Disciples’.

Words such as those said by the great epic poet Homer, who said, “There is nothing nobler or more admirable than when two people who see eye to eye keep house as man and wife, confounding their enemies and delighting their friends.”

When ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton directed his ‘Disciples’ or ‘Students’ that were in relationships to either part or marry, surely he was condoning the marital union of a man and a woman. Why else would he give this kind of direction to couples unless he felt that there was a mutually positive benefit for them in a monogamous marriage? After all, he did not say, “‘Students’ in a relationship: part and go live separately from one another.”

How can we ever think with our minds, feel with our hearts or in our guts, instinctively consider that ‘The Teacher” Robert Burton is a man with higher being when he loves [and I think this is the right word to use] his devoted ‘Students’ so little? I say so little because he must not consider their emotional wellbeing at all, in order to establish these recurring exercises of fellatio with them, many of them not homosexual like himself, some of them underage (there is a reason for the term underage, you know), some of them married, and all of them in a relationship subordinate to him, him being ‘The Teacher’, and they being the ‘Student’.

Especially because ‘The Teacher” Robert Burton is in a position of authority, and in the words of his ‘Students’, ‘revered almost like
a god’, this type of sexual liaison is wrong. To utilize these ‘Students’ to obtain sexual satisfaction is not only a perversion, but in the instances of coerced sexual relations with his employees, or those underage, he commits criminal offenses that are punishable by law.

‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton is pervertedly and criminally inconsiderate of the ‘Students’ who he should love and wish the best for; instead he inconsiderately coerces the students to be disloyal to their loved ones, and if married, coerces the students to commit adultery. In some instances, he goes so far as to send his sexual toy’s loved one away to a faraway teaching center.

How highly evolved the ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton is, is a moot point. He commits sins and crimes in the name of ‘C Influence’.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus said “History is philosophy teaching by example.”

When we look at the history of the ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton’s propensity for utilizing his ‘Students’, many of whom are heterosexual and in established pre-existing relationships, for his own sexual gratification, what exactly are we being taught by his example?

I spent some time in the FOF ivory tower and worked on diminishing my unnecessary suffering. I spent months working with fellow ‘Students’ with whom I shared a special understanding of the meaning of presence and sleep [even though many of their and my own ‘photographs’ were a source of suffering]. They told me that they thought I was a ‘King of Hearts”. I think it was said that ‘The ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton was also a ‘King of Hearts”. Tell me, how can a ‘King of Hearts’ do such ugly acts and be the source of such great pain? The sexually abused are always severely harmed.

Artists and musicians find inspiration not only in the works of previous masters, nature, and the cosmos ~ they create works with their IMAGINATION. Positive and negative imagination are IMAGINATION. The ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton is a ‘King of Hearts’…that’s IMAGINATION. Is he DIVIDING HIS ATTENTION when he has the ‘Student’s’ member in his mouth?

By the way, the idea that all the ‘Teacher’ ~ ‘Student’ fellatio is consensual is laughable. Yeah, it’s about as consensual as director Roman Polanski performing cunnilingus on the 13 year old actress.

And PROSTITUTION is alive and well at Apollo in Oregon House.

I recommend that all ‘Students’, read the wise words of silentpurr:

Posted on October 24, 2009 by silentpurr [Part 84/250]

Daily Cardiac, I am wondering why you visit this blog? I myself do because I have an interest in spontaneous and honest dialog with people with whom I share an unusual history. When in the Fellowship, I valued and appreciated the efforts that ’students’ made to stay. As the integrity of the ’school’ began to fail, I am certain that the people most dedicated to TRUTH had no alternative but to leave. You will find many of them posting on this blog. I am sure that some would meet with you face to face if you needed. What is left of the Fellowship has the spiritual efficiency of a 1962 Lincoln Continental. No one wants it except the fearful ones. Get out while you can. We all did and survived the leap into the unknown. There is a net (network) here now.

16. nige - November 3, 2009

13 GoldenVeil

Dear Golden Veil

Welcome to the blog. Thank you for your clarity, foremost, and your simple and incisive description of why Robert Earl Burton cannot possibly be a spiritual master. We, either in or out of the FOF, need to hear more posts like these…..Nigel.

17. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 3, 2009

85/13. GoldenVeil:

‘How can we ever think with our minds, feel with our hearts or in our guts, instinctively consider that “The Teacher” Robert Burton is a man with higher being when he loves [and I think this is the right word to use] his devoted ‘Students’ so little?’

You cannot ‘consider that “The Teacher” Robert Burton is a man with higher being’ unless you practice super-celestial thoughts with subterranean actions.

‘[W]hat exactly are we being taught by his example?’

How to be criminals with gold alchemy.

”Tell me, how can a ‘King of Hearts’ do such ugly acts and be the source of such great pain?’

Because that is not the King of Hearts; more likely it’s the Queen of Clubs, or elsewhere in that suit. The example that he teaches is that which he has learned. It cannot be otherwise. That is why the following applies:

A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:15-20 [KJV]

And you do not need anybody to provide any ‘keys’ as to what that means.

18. Mikey - November 3, 2009

The preceeding moment of silence was brought to you by the Master of Silence, Meher Baba, author of “God Speaks”.

19. fofblogmoderator - November 3, 2009

13 & 14 are new

20. Ask Questions - November 3, 2009

As a cure for group mentality,

Ask questions. Ask a lot of them. Keep asking them. Ask many different people. Follow up with more questions. You will get answers.

You want answers, … right?

21. GoldenVeil - November 3, 2009

Dear Friends,

I created a new blog writer handle, GoldenVeil, when I could not get a long letter, No. 13, and a short note, No. 14, to post after numerous attempts under my real name, Lisa.

According to the blog outlines, one’s first post has about a one day lag, and then one’s subsequent posts will appear right away. Well, that may be the aim, but not always the result! Perhaps there is often a lag, or perhaps it is even my fault and it has to do with my removal of ‘cookies’ last week? I do not know the answer.

I was especially surprised (and happy, after seeing my long letter disappear so many times) that my first post as GoldenVeil was applied immediately as a new blog user (No. 15).

I apologize for the confusion this has created; since now you have received two copies of almost the same two terribly long posts!

So, at this point, shall I continue as GoldenVeil or Lisa?

Or shall I call myself Lisa GoldenVeil!

22. James Mclemore - November 3, 2009

Lisa GoldenVeil does have a nice ring to it, but let us not confuse the blog moderator any more than we already sometimes do.

Whatever you choose, it was a great post.

23. Tatyana - November 3, 2009

Lisa GoldenVeil sounds beautiful. But whatever your name is, I love your posts. Thank you!

WhaleRider, great article! Thanks! I like this:
“Cardiac extended his hand in front of his face, touched the tip of his nose with his thumb, symbolically held his four fingers high and stated, “Neener, neener, neener! I am rubber; you are glue. Anything you say bounces off my buffers and sticks to you!”

24. Tatyana - November 3, 2009

15. GoldenVeil
“Words such as those said by the great epic poet Homer, who said, “There is nothing nobler or more admirable than when two people who see eye to eye keep house as man and wife, confounding their enemies and delighting their friends.”

‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton is pervertedly and criminally inconsiderate of the ‘Students’ who he should love and wish the best for; instead he inconsiderately coerces the students to be disloyal to their loved ones, and if married, coerces the students to commit adultery. In some instances, he goes so far as to send his sexual toy’s loved one away to a faraway teaching center.

When we look at the history of the ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton’s propensity for utilizing his ‘Students’, many of whom are heterosexual and in established pre-existing relationships, for his own sexual gratification, what exactly are we being taught by his example?”

**********

With the risk of stating unpopular point of view, it is interesting for me to look at this posting from a different perspective. I spoke to the student recently who claims that the reason why he loves his long-term girl-friend is because they can “fuck other people”. Now this is a shocking statement for most, especially those who did not live during the American Sex Revolution (me).

Free sexuality – is it bad or is it good? Keeping a “fountain of youth”? Or keeping the boring dead marriage?
Sex slaves or liberated men overcoming their homosexual taboos? Is it possible to examine this “love sex and rock-n-roll” of FOF in a more creative way?

25. GoldenVeil - November 3, 2009

No. 23

” Free sexuality – is it bad or is it good? Keeping a “fountain of youth”? Or keeping the boring dead marriage?

Sex slaves or liberated men overcoming their homosexual taboos?

“Is it possible to examine this ‘love sex and rock-n-roll’ of FOF in a more creative way?”

* * *

Are you being facetious or satiric?

The phrase ‘mental masturbation’ came immediately to mind when I read the suggestion to have a discussion about ‘free sexuality’ and its various possible benefits, and the Felllowship.

In the Urban Dictionary, definition No.4 for mental masturbation is:
Overly intensive … thought and contemplation for a subject not necessarily warranting such effort.

Ex-‘Students’ are posting here who’ve had first hand experience of “The Teacher’ Robert Burton’s ‘love? sex and chamber music!’

I respect their decision to bravely come forward and relate their experiences. I believe they relate their personal sexual histories with ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton to publicize to the ‘Students’ or ‘Disciples’ what really happens there at the Fellowship of Friends headquarters behind closed doors. It is not ‘free sexuality’.

I feel also that the telling of these histories are important to these Ex ‘Student’ victims of sexual abuse for their own emotional and probably, instinctual healing.

I found this blog when researching the community of Oregon House while considering buying a beautiful home on Whitman Way that is now up for sale. At first I was happy that the home was near the Fellowship of Friends HQ. I thought I would have good neighbors, and perhaps even have nearby ‘Friends’ to hire to help when it was time to harvest the olive grove.

I came here and posted my little story, Part 84, No. 264, Lisa. I was just going to leave the one post, and I hoped to hear from some of my friends from the center in Florence, Italy. But then I stayed a little longer. I was inspired to post a luminous poem that was sung at a recital I recently attended. But then I read a little more and began to ask questions.

Previous to writing my other posts, I had read only a few by others, mostly in Parts 84 and 85). Then I read a few of the entries from the May 2007 Fellowship of Friends SketchBook. These posts brought me to tears:

http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2007/05/04/the-fellowship-of-friends-scrapbook/

After reading posts there, I QUICKLY DETERMINED THAT I COULD NOT LIVE IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO SUCH EVILNESS, no matter how closely this property matched my vision of an ideal home.

Being coerced into satisfying the demands of a SEXUAL PREDATOR could never be considered ‘free sexuality’, homosexuality, love, or even making love with a liberated man who has overcome his sexual taboos; even if it’s after excellent food and wine, submitted to upon fine linens while surrounded by exquisite paintings, and accompanied by sublime chamber music.

Yes, there are people out there in the world who like alternatives to what is considered the standard Heterosexuality & Homosexuality. They prefer alternatives like Sadomasochism, Submission or Dominance. These standard and alternative ways of sexuality are all enjoyed by people who consensually agree to participate together, and yes, sometimes without deep or even any emotional involvement. And sometimes consensually consenting adults decide to have standard sex with multiple partners without the use of condoms or any safe sex practices (could that ever be wise?).

Unfortunately some people in the world only experience a sexual alternative like forced sodomy, fellatio, or S&M during a date rape or kidnapping assault rape.

Unfortunately, some Heterosexual ‘Students’ of the Fellowship of Friends only experience the sexual alternative/standard: Submissive Homosexuality by their having been brainwashed by the Fellowship of Friends to consider Robert Burton a man no. 6 (or is it 7, now?), in fact an ‘angel’ or ‘god’. They are seduced with golden carrots like being part of the inner circle, better housing, gifts, and travel.
Or, they are just seduced while drunk on a lot of fine Renaissance wine by ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton.

Would you like that to be your first sexual encounter as a teenager?

It’s all about what Wouldn’t You Like To Know said in post 17:

“How to be criminals with gold alchemy.”

Ok, now you’ve made me do it! Airing dirty alchemy again!

* Lisa *

26. Opus 111 - November 4, 2009

#24 Lisa:

Thank you for stating the obvious and stating it so well.

27. fofblogmoderator - November 4, 2009

#20 is new

The reason for my confusion with the Lisa/GoldenVeil posts is because wordpress changed the format for how new posts are delivered to me and it took me a couple of days before I was able to figure how to process them

28. Panoritsa - November 4, 2009

….well, whatever “free sexuality” means for any person on earth, it is not “free” when it is institutionalized.

Burton “uses” sex as a “teacher’s tool” but the Fellowship is advertised as a divine place to be in order awaken. Far too many people who avoided Osho and the Scientology wouldn’t have joined if the Fellowship was presented as the school that works with a leader who is a Goddess in a male body.

Robert is a creature of our collective imagination. Our imagination about awakening, spirituality, goodness…He is well preserved where he is, because some know the value of creating such an image.

Next to his perversity, he has a very bad temper. So much said about the expression of negativity in the Fellowship. Members who have been close to him know about his negativity, his harsh judgment, his irritations, but “older students” prefer to spread the stories of his kindness, “determination” and exclusiveness. And that’s what many wanted and still want to hear about their guru at the back yard…

29. Ill Never Tell - November 4, 2009

Lisa GoldenVeil:

Good thing you reconsidered about moving to Oregon House or Dobbins, California, neighborhood; or, as it is affectionately known by the locals: Dog Patch U.S.A. Fellowship of Friends (FoF) and company have been trying to turn that sow’s ear into a silk purse for many years. There is this old adage: Don’t let your Karma run over your dogma.

It would have been:
Welcome to Dogpatch

30. Ill Never Tell - November 4, 2009

Reposted without permission:

Yes, DogPatch, Arkansas Bob* and his harem scare’m (ooops!, forgot, no contractions allowed; should be: ‘scare them’) of enablers; where daily life is from the ‘bleeding edge’ and only the absurd is common place. Such as, but not necessarily limited to: young heterosexual male sex slave trade, marriages of convenience for green cards, religious (and other) visa arrangements, money smuggling and laundering, shell corporations to hide assets, false non-profit 501c3 scams, inappropriate flow of assets between (so-called) profit making corporation(s) and non-profit corporation(s), flagrant disregard for laws (e.g.: building multi-million dollar Greek-style outdoor theater without building permits; unlimited/inappropriate use of construction and/or ‘conditional use’ permits – examples: winery construction, administrative offices, theater, library, public restaurant, bakery, Lodge/Apollo d’Oro, etc.; building Galleria on a ‘Garage Addition’ permit to Blake Cottage; closing public access to Dixon Hill Road where it passed through the Fellowship property; using Galleria as a giant restaurant/church/museum/meeting hall; avoidance of property and/or other taxes on the basis of being a museum), refusal to contribute to improvement of Rices Crossing Road (highly utilized by FoF), private inurement, disposal of non-profit property without due process, conducting various forms of gambling, discriminatory treatment of the old and crippled, favoritism based on ‘what?’, orgies and prostitution, just to name a few. Does that cemetery have appropriate formation and documentation? may their souls rest in peace. All this makes Fellowship of Friends a good citizen in Yuba County, California – Just ask Mr. Richards, the wealthy neighbor with 1000’s of acres. Better morph this puppy into an educational non-profit, asap, and keep it even more private, reclusive, esoteric, and secretive. Not because the ideas are dangerous; but because the actions taken may not be in keeping with what could be considered all human decency.

Not that I’m giving anyone any ideas.

*Arkansas Bob:
Start here:
ArkansasBob : THE BURTON ASSRAM
Read the page. Then at the bottom, step through the pages using the ‘Next Topic’ link.

31. Tatyana - November 4, 2009

I am not sure where I am going with this, but calling my question a mental masturbation is not helping a conversation.

In relation to RB’s boys most of them (at least the ones I know well) are creative people willing to experiment with sex and go beyond the conventional morality. At least in the beginning. The stories on the blog do not make this picture clear. It is always about victims, abuse and rape.

I agree that sex with the authority figure is not the same as with an equal partner, but maybe it gives to some people an additional rush, who knows?

I feel that wives of RB’s boys are actually the victims and the slaves. But the guys can always decide to walk away, yet they prefer to stay with him! the leave their wives and move to the Galleria!

I had a russian friend whom I met in Moscow 5 years ago, he was in the military, very devoted husband and a father of two, in love with his wife, adored her for being an amazing friend etc. He dropped her after he was advised to not keep relationship with non-students, as a good soldier. Robert started courting him and eventually took him into his entourage, moved him to US etc. I think this guy was really mentally traumatized. Any girl he liked was removed from his reach. Guys like this who are forced into sex with him based on fear look all similar to one another – they imitate Robert, wear the same clothes as Robert, talk like Robert. This is really sick.

32. Ill Never Tell - November 4, 2009

Reposted without permission:

Alternatively:
ArkansasBob : THE BURTON ASSRAM

33. Ill Never Tell - November 4, 2009

Reposted without permission:

Try this:
Supping With Alex

34. brucelevy - November 4, 2009

31. Tatyana

Your view of this is completely myopic due to self induced ignorance. I won’t even try to explain why, other than all the first person testimonials that have appeared here over the years. You simply don’t wish to metabolize information that doesn’t agree with your preconceived 2nd and 3rd hand views of what and how the sexual exploitation occurs. Your analysis also excludes any understanding of the process and progress, over time, of the results of being sexually exploited by a guru figure.

35. brucelevy - November 4, 2009

“I feel that wives of RB’s boys are actually the victims and the slaves. But the guys can always decide to walk away, yet they prefer to stay with him! the leave their wives and move to the Galleria!”

This is pure ignorance.

36. brucelevy - November 4, 2009

35 continued.

Your description does, however, generally hold true for the sociopaths in RB’s harem Perhaps that was your circle of friends in the FOF..

37. brucelevy - November 4, 2009

Then again , it’s not the sociopaths that need protection from RB.

38. veramente - November 4, 2009

Tatyana 31

I had a russian friend whom I met in Moscow 5 years ago, he was in the military, very devoted husband and a father of two, in love with his wife, adored her for being an amazing friend etc. He dropped her after he was advised to not keep relationship with non-students, as a good soldier. Robert started courting him and eventually took him into his entourage, moved him to US etc. I think this guy was really mentally traumatized. Any girl he liked was removed from his reach. Guys like this who are forced into sex with him based on fear look all similar to one another – they imitate Robert, wear the same clothes as Robert, talk like Robert. This is really sick

________
I think what you wrote above is an answer to your questions.

When you talk about free sexuality you may want to put it in a specific context.
Free sexuality within couples and others is apples, “free” sexuality with Robert Burton is oranges.
You see how deep goes the brainwashing, even thinking like you did as shown in a previous post shows to me the insidious effects of cult brainwashing.
Look at the boundaries issue here. It’s like they do not exist.

Thank you for being brave and trying your questions here in the blog, I too learn from them. Maybe better discrimination after thinking a bit.

39. anna - November 4, 2009

Bruce (34 etc)

I expect you’ve said it before but, if you can bear it, could you explain again, or copy and paste, a bit about what it’s really like for a decent guy?

How you were cadjoled, manipulated, pressed in an ‘undue influence’ relationship into doing something unnatural, the pressures, the hopes, the realisation of having been fooled etc. perhaps I’m using all the wrong words; but what ever it was, for You…?

Thanks,
Anna

40. GoldenVeil - November 4, 2009

*

Statement of Fact?

A friend said to me, “Aw, come on , these are/were grown men. If they don’t/didn’t want to have sex with ‘The Teacher’ they don’t/didn’t have to.”

My Response:

In some cases, I feel it has to do with what someone said to me about 25 years ago: many of the ‘Students’ of the Fellowship of Friends tend to be sensitive and impressionable people who have answered the ‘call’. Remember that angle? “Many are called but few are chosen.” Doesn’t that just make you feel special? You want to remain a part of that club!

Why didn’t the ‘Student’ just turn the hand aside, say “No!”, and then walk away? He was immersed in an environment of complicity.

Why didn’t Patricia Hearst just set down the gun in the bank and walk away? She was a victim of ‘Stockholm Syndrome’.

Why didn’t Jim Jones’ hundreds of followers just set down their glasses of poisoned Kool-Aid and say “No!” They were immersed in an isolated environment of complicity.

* Over time, anything can become acceptable when one is isolated
and finds oneself living in ‘A New Model of the Universe’. *

Are ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton’s hand-picked harem ‘Students’ really just experiencing liberation from homosexual taboos by receiving ‘godhead’? Maybe the predominately instinctive centered ‘Students’ are. How about the married heterosexual ‘Student’ who is considered predominately emotional centered? Each of the ‘Student’s’ experience ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton in their own way. Each ‘Student’ pays, too, one way or another.

And unless one is on the big payroll like Mr. Girard Haven,
I think it likely that each ‘Student’ will ‘graduate’, one day.

I apologize for the harshness of the words ‘mental masturbation.’
It did not have to do with the question, though. It came to my mind when I thought of the answers; of participating in discussions to “…examine this “love sex and rock-n-roll” of FOF in a more creative way?” What IS a boyfriend if one has sex with numerous partners?
Will a ‘student’s’ wife acknowledge his sexual liberation if he receives ‘godhead’ from ‘The Teacher’? Does ‘The Teacher’s’ taste in lovers run to ‘Solar/Saturn’, or?

The topic I think worth discussing here is that there are people now calling themselves ‘Students’ who are losing years of their lives by serving a fraudulent ‘Teacher’ who teaches them a made-up language, offers them false predictions of catastrophes, and gives them a made-up religion/cult that is mutated beyond all recognition from
‘The Work’ of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton’s biggest verifiable congruence with Gurdjieff is probably his propensity to have sex with his students.

The ‘Students’ are extended the opportunity to purchase fine art,
high quality men’s and home furnishings, and to pay for world travel expenses. They may work at his palace, gardens, and vineyard. Some are given special privileges, jobs, gifts of luxury items, special housing and receive ‘godhead’ from ‘The Teacher. They live in a community deemed by ‘The Teacher’ to be an ‘Ark’; if they ever leave the ‘Ark’, their hope for soul immortality will be forever lost.

I am writing here on behalf of the ex ‘Students’ who were deluded for years and then excommunicated after asking a few poignant questions.

I am writing here on behalf of the ex ‘Students’ who woke up one day and became really present to their life in the Fellowship of Friends’,
and then made the decision to leave.

But my dearest aim is for my words to reach the eyes of the present ‘Students’ of ‘The Fellowship of Friends”. Are you there?

Silence is the Voice of Complicity.

*

41. Tatyana - November 4, 2009

34. brucelevy
Except for your anger, I appreciate your response.
If my misunderstanding of this matter is nearsighted, it is definitely not self induced. Definition of ignorance is “the lack of knowledge or education”. And also I don’t have any “preconceived” views. Only my own observations, this blog and conversations with different people.
Why not educate me then instead of insulting me with “for the sociopaths in RB’s harem Perhaps that was your circle of friends in the FOF”
If they were sociopaths, I certainly was not aware of that.

42. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 4, 2009

85/20. Ask Questions:
‘As a cure for group mentality, Ask questions. Ask a lot of them. Keep asking them. Ask many different people. Follow up with more questions. You will get answers. You want answers, … right?’

One very key question to ask in many situations is: ‘Can I communicate with people who were dissatisfied with your. . .’

Say you are going to see a medical practitioner. The hype is all about what that person can do for patients, including testimonials – like the provider is God and can do no wrong. Most people stop there and go ahead with some treatment protocol. But the important thing to learn is: how many ways can the process go wrong and bad outcomes are realized. What are the real life examples and what was done to remedy those situations when they arise. So, in the case of the Fellowship of Friends, there are maybe 15,000 people that have passed through and are now out. Get some input from these people before you spend time, energy, and money on believing everything that the current (1500?) promoters want you to believe. Positive, negative, neutral, and other, information should be sought out in order to get a better picture of what is possible to happen in a holistic/global manner.

O.K., let’s try it with something that is a little less serious than life or death. Say you are going to remodel your kitchen. . . or need auto repair, etc. Same question! Get the full poop, including the prehistoric rhino poop – indicating the existence of the sequence as an established and tested method of achieving being present or promoting and/or prolonging presence, or getting self-realization – since time in memoriam.

Ask Questions
Especially the difficult and unpleasant ones.
Examples:
Where does all the money go?
What’s all the K-Y jelly for?
What’s with all the palm trees?
How many sex acts can the teacher have in one day?
When is the winery, theatron, etc., going to be completed.
Who are the ministers in this religious organization?
How are the ministers chosen?
Who is responsible for the governance of this organization?
Can I get a copy of the last 10 years of financial reports?

43. Tatyana - November 5, 2009

42. Wouldnt You Like To Know

Is this a standard for religious organizations to have financial reports available? I would like to know.

44. Tatyana - November 5, 2009

Did a little research on the Internet to find an answer on my question. Here is what I found:

Financial Accountability in Religious Organizations

Financial accountability can be improved by several measures. First, the organizations should have a board of directors composed of independent individuals, including some not directly connected with or interested in the organization. An annual audit (not simply a review) is mandatory. Audit reports and other financial reports should be more readily available to interested parties, including the press. Finally, donors should provide increased scrutiny and demand nothing less than total integrity.

the full article:
http://www.allbusiness.com/accounting/125582-1.html

45. Bares Reposting - November 5, 2009

Sorry for long post.

Page 40/#26. Rear View Mirror – July 11, 2008

‘The D.S. story is interesting. I recall hearing things about her house, and how she was just another “negative ex-student”, but I never witnessed her protesting. And I do wonder how I would have reacted if I had seen her.

But sometimes I think we complicate things. Information about the cult – partly from a growing number of former members in the area, and partly from a number of websites, including this one – is slowly eroding people’s usual certainty about participating in the FOF.

Robert Burton and the FOF have been using one of the oldest known propaganda techniques for the past 38 years – repetition. And more repetition.

Repetition is a tough thing for our brains to battle against. The more we hear something – for example, that Republicans are stronger on foreign policy – the more we begin to believe it as unassailable fact. And we begin looking for arguments to support that assertion even if there are many counter arguments that suggest otherwise.

It’s the same in the FOF. We had the ideas of “higher forces” and “food for the moon” and “higher school” drilled into our brains over and over – many of us for many years – and we began talking about these concepts as though they were facts.

Now the tables are turning.

We have the opportunity, thanks to the internet, and thanks to the proximity of larger numbers of friends who have escaped, to introduce the facts about this cult – again and again and again.

The process may be taking longer than we’d want, but there is a difference now from 10, 20, and 30 years ago when someone expressed dissent. Today, the dissent is slightly closer to the walls of the compound, and quite a bit more persistent. It’s a much different time.’

40/27. ton – July 11, 2008

‘RVM 26 thanks for the post. there seems to be a trend in today’s thinking that technology will either save us or destroy us. depends entirely on how it’s used, whether we use it as a tool or are used by it…. whatever the outcome, the potential offered by current technologies for open communication, definitely offers advantages not available back when i left the fellowship of friends…. or even as you say 10 years ago. (of course, the converse would be the example of government disinformation/propaganda being distributed via various media/technologies and used as a tool for ‘mind-control’ -(albeit on a larger scale than the case in point)).

you say:
“The D.S. story is interesting. I recall hearing things about her house, and how she was just another “negative ex-student”, but I never witnessed her protesting.”

it was a long time ago, but i don’t think i’m making this up… while she still lived in her house, before she moved to marysville, on some mornings when a group of ‘us’ were tending the garden, she would stand in her yard and vocalize her protestations…. i don’t think she ever carried a sign but i could be wrong…. either way, if someone can corroborate or repudiate (?) and does anyone know what happened to ‘D’ ?
and yes, it is an interesting story (whalerider).’

40/28. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup – July 11, 2008

‘On DS: I remember something about her water being turned off. She shared a well with the FOF. Don’t know any other details though except I remember not having much compassion for her at the time. That certainly sticks in my memory. Not frozen just a little frost bitten.’

DS (D*r*t*) Story:

Here is what I know and as seen from my perspective. (Those who know more or otherwise are welcome to post and correct or give other views):

Once upon a time there were these Oregon House people (in Fellowship speak: ‘Life People’), Shirks or Snipes, or something like that, perhaps were their names. (Checking property records would reveal that information. It is public record with Yuba County.) They were older retired folks that were living the ‘Dog Patch U.S.A.’ type of life that existed in many places in Oregon House prior to the Fellowship arriving. They had, likely, limited means. Possibly lived in an old single-wide mobile home. (Mostly that was too early for me to remember; but I remember the story.) The parcel they owned was about 4.7 acres on Rice’s Crossing Road, south of Regent Way and on the east side. This property was entirely surrounded by the Fellowship owned property on all sides except the portion that is along the road itself and provides access to the parcel.

The Fellowship of Friends did not care for the way these people lived as a somewhat unsightly blight on the landscape, so various methods were used to motivate them. Perhaps gentle persuasion was tried first by befriending them or helping them. I am not clear on all of what took place. But eventually FoF began bulldozing FoF property right up to their property lines and doing various things to make them uncomfortable. As I vaguely remember, they became willing to move when a number of incentives came together, like: 1) appropriate price, 2) a willing buyer, 3) assistance to seller in finding new home, etc. So they eventually moved and the buyer was DS.

DS was from, I think, the Pacific Northwest, maybe Seattle. She was reluctant and did not have all the resources needed. To sweeten the deal, a 3rd party (to remain unnamed) that had money was asked to finance part of the deal. The property was bought. The old mobile home removed. Some improvement to the land made. A quad wide mobile home bought and assembled on site. And, viola, a student now owned and occupied the nearest residence to the abode of the leader of FoF. It was supposedly a financial stretch for DS and this necessitated various students to live there. It was, I think, 4 bedrooms, one of which was a master bedroom for DS. It was spacious but still a mobile home. Many visitors stayed there, especially on the weekends, as it was so close to ‘the property.’ DS called it ‘The Dew Drop Inn,’ as I may remember. That was a little problematic as it was a time when houses were named after conscious beings, like: Gurdjieff Cottage and Elizabeth Cottage – some of the first houses bought apart from ‘the property.’ Many who lived there were selected by RB, as having his sex partners living nearby was desired – they could respond on short notice or in the middle of the night. One such person living there might have been a sibling of someone who is still a long time member of FoF. That sibling might have been in a relationship with DS at one point. Whether they were a sex partner with RB, I do not know or remember. (You know all these relationships and sex partners things is difficult to keep straight (no pun intended) let alone remember – sort of like the incestuous Ozarks; it is Arkansas BoB, after all.)

One of the crises, and there were many with DS, was with her well and water. It was a poor well to begin with. FoF drilled a well very close to her property line and it was very deep, relative to the shallow one on her property. DS claimed that her well was going dry because the new well was drawing down the water table. There was not enough water for all the people living at her place, let alone all the visitors. People had to go to the bath house on ‘the property.’ This is when and how it came to pass that FoF gave DS a water line from that new well. This was fine for awhile.

Years later, DS leaves FoF. The FoF rabble in her home moves out, by necessity. DS becomes enemy of FoF/REB. So, FoF decides to turn off that water supply they agreed to provide in order to get rid of her. She leaves Oregon House. Later, she sublets the place to FoF people and the water gets turned back on. Eventually, REB tells everyone to move out and the place goes vacant for many years leaving DS in difficult financial situation with a deteriorating property. Long term, it becomes a torn in the side of FoF/REB. DS repeatedly tries to sell but refuses to sell to FoF or any of its members – DS always asking far more than it is worth. Eventually, some investment company buys the property only to find out the mistake they have made. Later, still, ML in FoF was reported to have bought it from the investment company – induced to do so by REB to get the property into FoF hands, so to speak.

This is how the King of Hearts gets things done invisibly behind the scenes; one could say, tongue-in-cheek.

Letter to the Editor of the Appeal-Democrat dated January 7, 1982:
http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_935

‘P. O. Box XXXX
Chico, CA 95927
January 7, 1982

Dear Editor:

Some of your readers are aware of the cult known as the Fellowship of
Friends in the area of Oregon House, CA near Oroville. Unknown, however, is a recent development involving the F of F and ex-member D*r*t* St*rr.

Since Ms. St*rr defected from the Fellowship some six months ago, they recently have written informing her that the hook-up of her well to that of the F of F’s well will be disconnected.

The well hook-up, made to supply Ms. St*rr with water, was promised
verbally to her for as long as she needed it. On this the Fellowship has
reneged. The promise was made initially because the F of F’s system being much stronger, was taking the water “out from underneath” the reach of Ms. St*rr’s system. It seems the issue of the well hook-up became a problem for the F of F after Ms, St*rr’s departure from the group and her reluctance to move from the area. Ms. St*rr believes this could very well be an effort by the F of F to force her to move.

The reports are that the Fellowship of Friends is hoping to buy many
properties around the Oregon House, Dobbins and Collins Lake areas, with very handsome prices being offered to local land owners.

With the Oregon House branch of the Fellowship of Friends serving as the World Headquarters, it makes good sense for the group to want as much “insulation” around them as possible. Former members and the parents of former members have given reports that are anything but desirable concerning the inner workings of this cult.

It should also be noted that Ms. St*rr was the deciding factor in another member leaving, Mr. Th*m*s P*nn*ll.

But why should Mr. P*nn*l’s departure cause much concern? Mr. P*nn*l was at one time very close to the leader of the Fellowship of Friends, Mr. Robert Burton. It seems the departure of Mr. P*nn*ll struck a discordant note with Mr. Burton as he personally came to Ms. St*rr’s door very late one evening to retrieve Mr. P*nn*ll. This indicates to Ms. St*rr another possible reason for their wanting her to move.

Mr. Robert Burton, who began the Fellowship of Friends, eleven years ago was a student of Alexander Horn, the leader of the “Theater of All Possibilities” in San Francisco. Mr. Horn’s group was abruptly closed in
1978, after some news reports on alleged beatings and possible child abuse among the theater’s company.

Though the F of F renounces such practices, they are hoping to open a
children’s nursery in the Oregon House area, on property, it is reported, owned by four members of the Fellowship. One wonders what could stem from this. The request for construction has been denied only to be appealed by the F of F members. The hearing will of course be re-scheduled.

In all of this we should ask ourselves: What are the long range implications of any group desiring such extensive land holdings and isolation? How will this affect our communities? Who will be teaching the children at the proposed nursery and what will they be taught?

There was a sign that hung on the wall in Guyana [location of Jonestown Massacre] which read: “Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it”.

Many believe that further investigation into the activities of this
group are very much in line. I certainly agree.

Sincerely yours,
Br*ce *ll**tt D*lL*v**’

Just one SEQUENCE of events, among many, that reveals and illustrates what the Fellowship of Friends can be like. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

46. X-ray - November 5, 2009

31. Tatyana – November 4, 2009

”In relation to RB’s boys most of them (at least the ones I know well) are creative people willing to experiment with sex and go beyond the conventional morality.”

What ”experimenting with sex” has to do with creativity, Tatyana?
If that would be the case, then Boby Burton would be fairly considered as being a very creative person, don’t you think?

But I don’t even want to start on your “beyond conventional morality” crap, because that would not have an end.

47. X-ray - November 5, 2009

31. Tatyana – November 4, 2009

Those RB’s boys are pervert whores, who prefer to go beyond conventional morality, than beyond the American borders.

48. nige - November 5, 2009

“The Pride Parade” by Don McLean

It started out quite simply, as complex things can do;
A set of sad transparencies ’til no one could see through,

But least of all the one inside, behind the iron glass;
A prisoner of all your dreams that never come to pass.

Alone you stand corrupted by the vision that you sought,
And blinded by your hunger all your apettites are bought,

But in spite of what becomes of you, your image will remain;
A reminder of your constant loss, a symbol of your gain.

CHORUS:
And your friends are together,
Where the people are all gathered,
All along the road you travelled all your days.

And soon you have succumbed to what the others all believe,
And though the lie affects them still it’s you that they decieve,

And all at once you’re lost within the emptiness of you,
And there’s no one left who’s near enough to tell you what to do.

You’re left with nothing but your self – potential in the dark,
Like tinder resting on a rock, protected from the spark,

But your fire just consumes you, you alone can feel the pain,
And you stand in all your glory and you know you can’t complain.

CHORUS

But you are surely just as evil as the worst my tongue can tell,
For you’ll never face my heaven and I’ll not endure your hell.

You have lost your chance to mingle with your constant quiet lies;
Deceptions hidden with your lips, but spoken with your eyes.

For I know you for what you are not for that’s really all you are.
And your talents of a minor order seem to stretch too far.

And we both know that this masquerade can’t carry on too long.
You’re deep inside the Pride Parade, but where do you belong?

CHORUS

49. JustDiscussing - November 5, 2009

Tatjana, calling something “mental masturbation” is a form of though-terminating cliche. It’s quite common among Gurdjieffans, though not one of their more admirable characteristics.

50. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 5, 2009

43. Tatyana:
’42. Wouldnt You Like To Know
Is this a standard for religious organizations to have financial reports available? I would like to know.’

T., I am not an accountant, nor a lawyer, nor a tax adviser. I do not know what the ‘standards’ are. I was presenting the idea of what type of questions could be asked when I listed: ‘Can I get a copy of the last 10 years of financial reports?’

That being said, I could suggest that a religious organization, which may enjoy the classification of a non-profit (501c3 of the Internal Revenue Code), would have certain requirements for record keeping and reporting of their financial activities. Therefore, that material must be preserved for a certain number of years – and be subject to audit. This information may not have to be made available to the casual (member) request for them. But you can ask. If there is nothing to hide, they might make something available. Religious corporations do not have the same requirements that regular profit oriented corporations have. But all of them have financial records and bookkeeping. Some have more than one set of books/records. Often that would be done in order to mislead some entity that would want to examine them: one set of books for the government, another for insurance purposes, another for borrowing/financing purposes, yet another to show to the members that ask. This could be considered illegal, under certain circumstances. Some of this information could be a matter of public record – meaning that what is reported to the government may be available for general, and/or specific, public inquiry – say, to you or to an investigative reporter from a news agency.

As far as I know, the Fellowship of Friends has not provided its members any financial accountability.

I hope that helps.

51. Mikey - November 5, 2009

(Aside to anna/39: That’s really not an appropriate request to make of anyone much less that New York Jew).
“Spiritual Jingoism” (Part I)
“In no sphere of life is jingoism more rampant than in the fields of spirituality. As in the market of economic goods, so also in the realm of spirituality, there is the inexorable law of demand and supply. The whole world is pinning for light and freedom. To meet this recurrent and poignant demand there always arises a plentiful supply of those who claim to meet it adequately. Most of these claimants are impostors. Those who can meet the demand adequately are extremely rare.
Extremely rare also are those person who can either recognize or profit by the true claimant. Among the seekers there are two categories: those who are sincerely struggling with their backs to the walls, and those who pretend to seek. Those who pretend to seek and those who pretend to give are close kin in the bewildering realm of spiritual jingoism.”
written circa 1958 A.M.B.
So, it is much more likely to come across an imposter than the genuine. How many gurus have you checked out lately?

52. Mikey - November 5, 2009

Last 2 paragraphs from the same essay (Let this be a warning):

A sincere belief, no matter how false, does not chain the seeker irredeemably, because he is open to correction. However, the person who knowingly and deliberately plays a false role is pretentiously airing claims for which he has no authority. He is inviting a spiritual doom for himself by yielding to patent illicitness. He embraces his boastful jingoism in order to exploit the simple credulity of others. The first person sincerely, albeit falsely, believes in his own spiritual credentials. The other fraudulently and knowingly poses as what he inwardly know himself not to be – far from the veritable truth. The difference is tremendous. The former is confirming his being in perceived Truth, whereas the latter is confirming his being in perceived falseness.
The conscious impostor in spiritual jingoism therefore condemns himself to a self-created shadowy destiny of piling sins, quite apart from dragging all the other credulous ones into the slippery quagmire of his own creation. He is spirituality burying himself and all who, in their childlike simplicity, have loved him and put faith in him. The jingo invites this doom upon himself and others who love him; he cannot escape it except through an act of special grace from some Perfect Master. The most tragic fact in the situation is that the impostor does not deserve such grace, which alone can save him.”

I think this applys to the situation at hand.

53. fofblogmoderator - November 5, 2009

#44 is new

54. nige - November 5, 2009

44 Tatyana

I don’t know how it has been for others, but any financial involvement with organisations other than one’s employment requires documentation and accountability. And even then, if one is self-employed, documentation and accountability is required. How many students actually prepared their own tax-returns with regard to dealings with the FOF and the ‘donations’ required? See, the thing I am getting at, and I don’t know where Statute of Limitations lies in regard to this, is that it would be quite easy to trace where the Fellowship of Friends FRAUDULENTLY demanded funds from ‘students’ and what the money was, or was not, spent on. I will, personally, try to ‘surf’ for legislation on the subject, since many times on the blog, the same subjects of legal concern, where it is obvious that the FOF has not acted within legal guidelines, nor even attempted to stay within the law, have been raised and I think it is high-time that we act on these concerns. It is a ‘chink in the armour’ of the cult. Are we just talkers or do we wish justice to be done? The two phrases – Fellowship of Friends and High Principles – should not be used in the same sentence…..Nigel.

55. nige - November 5, 2009

One page ago…..

2. WhaleRider – September 11, 2009
The False Claims Act allows people to file “qui tam” lawsuits against individuals or companies that have directly or indirectly defrauded the federal government. Through qui tam lawsuits, whistleblowers may recover the government’s losses on the government’s behalf. Tax fraud cases are handled differently. For more information about rewards for whistleblowers in cases involving federal tax fraud or tax underpayments, see information about the new IRS whistleblower law .

Many people who file qui tam lawsuits (called the “relators”) are employees or former employees of companies that commit fraud. But anyone who knows of an instance where the government has paid false claims can file a qui tam lawsuit. That could be, for example, a competitor, a customer, a subcontractor or even a patient.

Filing a False Claims Act lawsuit

False Claims Act cases and procedures are unique, and a specialized knowledge of the law can be very helpful in getting a successful outcome for a qui tam lawsuit.

The relator files the lawsuit in federal court “under seal,” meaning it is not available to the public and cannot be discussed with anyone except the government officials investigating the case. Even the defendants — the individual or organization charged with committing fraud — are not told about the lawsuit. This gives the government time to investigate the fraud allegations without alerting the defendant. The seal initially lasts for 60 days. But seals on qui tam cases are routinely extended for one or two years or even longer while the government investigates.

At the end of the sealed investigative period, the government decides whether to join, or intervene, in the qui tam lawsuit. If the government joins the case, the litigation is conducted jointly by the government and the whistleblower’s attorney, with the government as lead counsel. If the government declines to intervene, the relator may go forward with the lawsuit and assumes primary responsibility for running the case.

The timing of a lawsuit can be critical. The first person to file a case under the False Claims Act for a particular fraud preempts all other cases. So if you plan to bring a case, it is important to do so before another whistleblower beats you to the courthouse. Potential whistleblowers also should keep in mind that the False Claims Act has a statute of limitations that may be as short as six years.

Damages and fines

The law stipulates that a liable defendant pay three times the government’s losses plus a fine for each false claim. When settling a case, the government often agrees to forego the civil penalties and accepts two to three times the amount of damages suffered by the government. The defendant also must pay the fees and the case-related expenses of the whistleblower’s attorney.

Whistleblower’s reward

Under the False Claims Act, whistleblowers are entitled to 15 percent to 30 percent of whatever amount the government recovers as a result of their qui tam lawsuits. The amount varies, depending on whether the government intervened in the qui tam case and other factors.

Congress decided to give whistleblowers a share of the recoveries that result from qui tam lawsuits to give people a strong incentive to step forward and take the personal and professional risks involved in reporting fraud. It also wanted to encourage private law firms to risk their resources in litigating cases on the public’s behalf.

If you have any information why not visit this website.
~from http://www(dot)phillipsandcohen.com

First one who blows the whistle, gets the cash.

But, we need a smoking gun, not hearesay.

3. WhaleRider – September 11, 2009
Whistleblowers, the IRS and tax fraud cases

Whistleblowers who provide information about tax fraud or tax underpayments to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) will get a bigger reward as a result of a recent law passed by Congress.

The whistleblower reward section of the Tax Relief and Health Act of 2006 is modeled after the reward section of the False Claim’s Act qui tam provisions.

What whistleblowers who report tax fraud can expect:

The new tax fraud whistleblower law establishes certain provisions regarding whistleblowers who provide the IRS with information about tax fraud or tax underpayments:

Whistleblowers may receive a reward of 15 percent to 30 percent of the amount the IRS collects as a result of information about tax fraud provided to the IRS.

To qualify, the whistleblowers must provide information about tax fraud or tax underpayments that exceeds $2 million (counting tax, penalties and interest).

The annual income of an individual tax cheat must exceed $200,000.

If a reward from the IRS fails to recognize the whistleblower’s contribution, the whistleblower may appeal the reward amount to the U.S. Tax Court.

If the whistleblower initiated or planned the tax fraud, the IRS may reduce or deny a reward. (sorry Abe)

A whistleblower reward also may be reduced if the whistleblower’s allegations have been previously disclosed.

Whistleblowers are still covered by the previous existing law for confidential informants to the IRS:

The IRS will keep the whistleblower’s identity confidential.

The IRS pays rewards after it completes an investigation into the tax fraud or tax underpayments, collects all amounts owed in the case and the matter officially is closed.

Before the new tax whistleblower law was enacted in December 2006, the IRS rarely paid rewards to tax fraud informants, and the rewards paid were small: just 1 percent to 15 percent of the amount the IRS recovered.

The new tax whistleblower law “will give a lot of encouragement for people to step forward who otherwise wouldn’t,” attorney John R. Phillips of Phillips & Cohen said in a Wall Street Journal article about the new whistleblower law.

Attorney Erika A. Kelton of Phillips & Cohen told “Marketplace,” a business news show broadcast by National Public Radio, that the new law “should pay whistleblowers handsomely, too.”

If you have information about tax fraud that exceeds $2 million and would like to know how Phillips & Cohen can help you with your case and the IRS, please fill out our tax fraud case evaluation form. This is the fastest way to get a detailed response.

Their contact information is:

Phillips & Cohen
131 Steuart St.
Suite 501
San Francisco, CA 94105
Tel: 415.836.9000
Fax: 415.836.9001

That’s dubdubdub.phillipsandcohen.com

AGAIN, FIRST ONE IN COURT, GETS THE CASH!

56. nige - November 5, 2009

From page 75…..

Even though I always found A. Goldman a man with kind face and soft eyes, the fact is that he has played a very complicated role in the Fellowship. As he has been aware of Burton’s illegal issues (and that is the job of an attorney; to defend their client; no matter what the crimes…), he still has been supporting him with the so-called “spiritual” business Burton contacts.

Very dubious indeed…as many issues of “supporters”, “protectors” of Robert Burton. Why all these people feel that strong need to play that role in a business they know from first hand is dirty? They conceal information from the other members of the so-called Church. They assist Burton with the “image” he has created of a spiritual leader and a conscious being.

There are a few older ladies in the Fellowship who do not pay teaching payments and some of them are “close” friends of Robert Burton. When I was talking about one of them and how difficult it must be for them to even express their doubts about Burton and the Fellowship because of their involvement, age, etc….my candid Italian friend just said: “You can become real and true to yourself even if it is just for a moment before your last breath….” Big words? Do not think so…

57. Old Coyote - November 6, 2009

!$! Account Ability or The Ark will be rocked !$!

Fellowship of Friend$ Inc. was established with the IRS as a Public Charity, 501c3 in 1971. Due to its classification with the IRS as a Church it is not required to file a Form 990, Return of Organization Exempt from Income Tax.

!$! !$!

Friend$ of the Goethe Academy was established with the IRS as a Public Charity in 1992. Each year it files Form 990, Return of Organization Exempt from Income Tax. The IRS requires the exempt returns of public charities to be open for disclosure [previous 3 years] and available for public perusal.

On Form 990 2007 Page 3, Part III in response to the question,
“What is the organization’s primary exempt purpose?” :

“Our mission is to present the finest works of the classical repertoire in opera, music theatre, and dance to audiences in the Sierra Foothills of Northern California”

Friends of the Goethe Academy Form 990 for years 2006, 2007, and Form 990-EZ for the 2008 year may be viewed online at:

http://www.guidestar.org

On the 2008 Form 990-EZ for the Academy the figures for gifts, grants, and contributions are combined with membership fees. Total amount: $ 51,757. The gross receipts from admissions, merchandise sold, or services performed (program service revenue) total amount was $ 114,829.

For the years 2002 – 2007 the Academy filed the more informative Form 990. The public support for the Academy is broken down into three parts: gifts, grants, contributions (GGC) and membership fees (MF), and Program service revenue; gross receipts from admissions, merchandise sold, or services performed (GR)

GGC MF GR

2007 $ 9,974* $ 60,358 $ 87,828

2006 $ 30,484 $ 29,994 $ 206,998

2005 $ 29,994 $ 63,207 $ 279,451

2004 $ 51,354 $ 41,304 $ 206,855

2003 $ 129,185 $ 33,938 $ 202,973

2002 $ 41,872 $ 11,875 $ 173,695

The source for the above information, years 2002 -2005, is page 4, Schedule A of the Form 990 filed in 2006 and 2007.

* In 2007 there was no figure filed under gifts, grants, and contributions. The $ 9,974 figure was actually filed under ‘direct public support.’

The total program service revenue, that is gross receipts from admissions, merchandise sold, or services performed for the years 2002 -2008 was $ 1,272,629; pretty good revenue for 12 or so classical concerts and recitals, a few plays, and a ballet or two a year, don’t you think? Program, t-shirt, wine and dessert sales?

See Form 990 2006 Page 3, Part III,
Statement of Program Accomplishments:

Classical Music Concerts: 13 Orchestral and Soloist Events
Total Attendance 3358

Ballet Performances ??? Ballets Total Attendance 7574

Theater Performances 3 Plays
Total Attendance 6570

2006 Program Service Expenses:

Music: $ 41,942

Ballets: $ 21,792

Theater: $ 1,502

!$! !$!

Think the old IRS should check the old dog pen out?

How ’bout how all these various entities hook up and support each other? Ya got yer Fellow Ship, ya got yer Vino-Garden, and ya got yer Academy of Fine Music and Dance Hall.

Folks, ya gotta wonder, huh ?!$!

Old Coyote Know$

!$! !$!

Write the old IR$ at their department that classifies
Exempt Organizations:

IRS-EO-Classification
4910 DAL
1100 Commerce St.
Dallas, TX 75242-1198

$top yer whinin’ ya’ll, and $end in yer $uspician$ and complaint!$!

58. Yesri Baba - November 6, 2009

Here’s an interesting piece. It’s kind of long so y’all might want to have some spare time to look at it.

http://www.realitysandwich.com/are_we_possessed

59. dragon - November 6, 2009

it is long but very worth reading it:

Exerpt:

One of the most destructive things in the human psyche is unrealized creativity.

If the daemonic is not honored and treated religiously (i.e., carefully considered with reverence and a sense of the sacred), however, it constellates negatively and turns truly “demonic,” in the destructive sense of the word.

Jung comments, “Generally speaking the daemonic is that moment when an unconscious content of seemingly overwhelming power appears on the threshold of consciousness.

It can cross this threshold and seize hold of the personality. Then it is possession.” Before an archetype can be consciously integrated, it will always manifest itself physically, because, in Jung’s words, “…it forces the subject into its own form.”

In its negative form, which is a truly virulent form of madness, we, because of our unconsciousness, become a living conduit for the incarnation of an inhuman, malevolent, predatory, rapacious energy that only cares about feeding its own insatiable narcissism, ultimately victimizing, consuming, and cannibalizing both ourselves and others in the process.

Describing this moment of being possessed, Jung elaborates, “The beast of prey seizes hold of him and soon makes him forget that he is a human being. His animal affects hamper any reflection that might stand in the way of his infantile wish-fulfillments, filling him instead with a feeling of a new-won right to existence and intoxicating him with the lust for booty and blood.”

This in-toxic-ating energy, which is the narcissistic ego running wild as it entrances itself, is the fuel which animates any form of addiction. “Intoxication,” to quote Jung, is “that most direct and dangerous form of possession,” as unless it is reflected upon, and therefore illuminated and transformed by the light of consciousness, it inevitably leads to self-destruction.

60. rock that boat - November 6, 2009

I think this did it for me, LEAVING FOF. I became increasingly more interested in new areas of thought that opened up new vistas of understanding. To escape from the killing routines of RB’s weird meetings, weird lovers/’teachers’. It happened not by a sudden overthrow, but by a gradual change in understanding. I revolted against FOF’s narrow ways of thinking and was on the lookout for new approaches to the truth. When nibbling at Adyashanti became VERBOTEN, only then did I realize the predicament I was in!
Independent thinking, exploring, growing, becoming more me was not aloud. I WAS IN A BLOODY CULT!

61. fofblogmoderator - November 6, 2009

#57 IS NEW

62. GoldenVeil - November 6, 2009

*

60. rock that boat – November 6, 2009

“I think this did it for me, LEAVING FOF.”

*

Dear rock the boat,

What “this” did it for you; that is decide to leave the FOF?

* * *

And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.

[Anais Nin]

* * *

“Approximately 300,000 Americans enter cults every year…

Approximately 300,000 Americans leave cults every year…

What is a cult?

The definition of a “cult” is elusive and controversial. Webster’s dictionary defines a cult in several different ways:

1. “A system of religious worship or ritual”

2. “A quasi-religious group, often living in a colony, with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices, or beliefs.”

It is a group operating under the second definition above that can become totalistic, high-controlling, and abusive to its members.

Robert J. Lifton, in his seminal work on thought-reform, “Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism”, proposes the following
8 characteristics of a high-control group:

1. Milieu Control – Control of communication both from without and within the group environment, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from the surrounding society. Includes other techniques to restrict members’ contact with outside world and to be able to make critical, rational judgments about information: overwork, busy-ness, multiple lengthy meetings, etc.

2. Mystical Manipulation – The claim of divine authority or spiritual advancement that allows the leader to reinterpret events as he or she wishes, or make prophecies or pronouncements at will, all for the purpose of controlling group members.

3. Demand for Purity – The world is viewed as black and white and group members are constantly exhorted to strive for perfection. Consequently, guilt and shame are common and powerful control devices.

4. The Cult of Confession – Serious (and often not so serious) sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed, either privately to a personal monitor or publicly to the group at large.

5. The “Sacred Science” – The doctrine of the group is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or disputing. The leader of the group is likewise above criticism as the spokesperson for God on earth.

6. Loading the Language – The group develops a jargon in many ways unique to itself, often not understandable to outsiders. This jargon consists of numerous words and phrases which the members understand (or think they do), but which really act to dull one’s ability to engage in critical thinking.

7. Doctrine over Person – The personal experiences of the group members are subordinated to the “Truth” held by the group — apparently contrary experiences must be denied or re-interpreted to fit the doctrine of the group. The doctrine is always more important than the individual.

8. Dispensing of Existence – The group arrogates to itself the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. Usually held non-literally, this means that those outside the group are unspiritual, worldly, satanic, “unconscious,” or whatever, and that they must be converted to the ideas of the group or they will be lost. If they refuse to join the group, then they must be rejected by the group members, even if they are family members. In rare cases this concept gives the group the right to terminate the outsider’s life.

* * *

The above is taken from the MeadowHaven website at:

http://www.meadowhaven.org/the_problem.htm

* * *

63. Mikey - November 6, 2009

This is no time for sentimentality: The pretentious followers and their vainglorius phoney goddess are a perfect match. All of them will get what they so richly deserve one way or another, this lifetime or the next millions of lifetimes. The unavoidable law of karma (cause & effect) says so.

64. Jomo Piñata - November 6, 2009

Old Coyote, you rock.

65. Opus 111 - November 6, 2009

See Form 990 2006 Page 3, Part III,
Statement of Program Accomplishments:

Classical Music Concerts: 13 Orchestral and Soloist Events
Total Attendance 3358

Ballet Performances ??? Ballets Total Attendance 7574

Theater Performances 3 Plays
Total Attendance 6570

The “attendance” numbers defy credibility. There is no way that three plays could have yielded that much attendance in 2006. It would be interesting to know whether it specified “paid attendance” or not.

Needless to say, there always was a lot of gerrymandering in FOF reporting of data, the little they did.

As most of us know, and I am sure Tatyana does as well, there has never been an outsider on the FOF board, council or any other FOF entity. In fact, every FOF board member candidacy had to be approved by REB before being “voted on” by sitting board members. It is easy to understand if you consider that the main role of the FOF board was, is to rubber stamp REB various activities, retro-actively modify those that may stretch legality and hide those that break the law.

And yes, Old Coyote, you rock.

66. GoldenVeil - November 6, 2009

*

Each friend represents a world in us,
a world not born until they arrive,
and it is only by this meeting that
a new world is born.

[Anais Nin]

*

Fellow$hip of Friend$:

Friend$ shouldn’t have to pay to be Friends!

[Old Coyote Know$]

*

Dear Friends ~ current and former students,

Does any of the below on Narcissistic Personality
Disorder sound like someone we know / have known?

*

Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

A Primer on Narcissism
and the Destructive Group Leader’s Personality

Narcissism (n. sing.) A pattern of traits and behaviors which signify infatuation and obsession with one’s self to the exclusion of all others, and the egotistic and ruthless pursuit of one’s gratification, dominance and ambition.

“Pathological narcissism is a ubiquitous phenomenon because every human being, regardless of the nature of his society and culture, develops healthy narcissism early in life. Healthy narcissism is rendered pathological by abuse, and abuse, sadly, is a universal human behavior. By “abuse” we mean any refusal to acknowledge the emerging boundaries of the individual.

There are malignant narcissists among subsistence farmers in Africa, nomads in the Sinai desert, day laborers in East Europe, and intellectuals and socialites in Manhattan and London. Malignant narcissism is all pervasive and independent of culture and society.” (Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited, Sam Vaknin, PhD.)

What is NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder)?

The Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD, 301.81) has been recognized as a separate mental health disorder since the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual (DSM), 1980.

It is described as an all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy. It usually begins by early adulthood and is present in various contexts. Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met (all quotes are from:

Dr. Sam Vaknin’s Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited):

1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);

“The narcissist is prone to magical thinking. He thinks about himself in terms of ‘being chosen’ or of ‘having a destiny’. …He believes that his life is of such momentous importance, that it is micro-managed by God. …In short, narcissism and religion go well together, because religion allows the narcissist to feel unique.”

“God is everything the narcissist ever wants to be: omniscient, omnipresent, admired, much discussed, and awe inspiring. God is the narcissist’s wet dream, his ultimate grandiose fantasy.”
…………………………………………………………………………………………..

[‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton came especially to my mind when
I read the following section]
…………………………………………………………………………………………..

2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;

“The narcissist is haunted by the feeling that he is possessed of a mission, of a destiny, that he is a part of fate, of history. He is convinced that his uniqueness is purposeful, that he is meant to lead, chart new ways, to innovate to modernize, to reform, to set precedents, to create. Every act is significant, every writing of momentous consequences, every thought of revolutionary calibre. He feels part of a grand design, a world plan and the frame of affiliation, the group, of which he is a member, must be commensurately grand.”

…………………………………………………………………………………………..

3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);

“The narcissist despises the very people who sustain his Ego boundaries and functions. He cannot respect people so expressly and clearly inferior to him, yet he can never associate with evidently on his level or superior to him, the risk of narcissistic injury in such associations being too great.”

4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);

“A common error is to think that ‘narcissistic supply’ consists only of admiration, adulation and positive feedback. Actually, being feared, or derided is also supply. The main element is ATTENTION.”

“He feeds of other people, who hurl back at him an image that he projects to them. This is their sole function in his world: to reflect, to admire, to admire, to applaud, to detest – in a word, to assure him that he exists.”

“In short: the group must magnify the narcissist, echo and amplify his life, his views, his knowledge, his history…”

5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations;

“He considers his very existence as sufficiently nourishing and sustaining (of others). He feels entitled to the best others can offer without investing in maintaining relationships or in catering to the well-being of his ‘suppliers’.”

6. Is “interpersonally exploitative”, i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;

“He will not hesitate to put people’s lives or fortunes at risk. He will preserve his sense of infallibility in the face of his mistakes and misjudgments by distorting the facts, by evoking mitigating or attenuating circumstances, by repressing the memories, or simply lying.”

7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others;

“But the narcissist does not care. Unable to empathize, he does not fully experience the outcomes of his deeds and decision. For him, humans are dispensable, rechargeable, reusable. They are there to fulfill a function: to supply him with Narcissistic Supply (adoration, admiration, approval, affirmation, etc.). They do not have an existence apart from the carrying out of their duty.”

8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her;

“First there is pathological envy. The narcissist is constantly envious of other people: their successes, their property, their character, their education, their children, their ideas, the fact that they can feel, their good mood, their past, their present, their spouses, their mistresses or lovers, their location.”

9. Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

“That which has cosmic implications calls for cosmic reactions. A person with an inflated sense of self-import, reacts in an exaggerated manner to threats, greatly inflated by his imagination and by the application of his personal myth.”

“Narcissists live in a state of constant rage, repressed aggression, envy and hatred. They firmly believe that everyone is like them. As a result, they are paranoid, suspicious, scared and erratic.”

Conclusion:

“NPD is a pernicious, vile and tortuous disease, which affects not only the narcissist. It affects and forever changes people who are in daily contact with the narcissist.”

“Sooner, or later, everyone around the narcissist is bound to become his victim. People are sucked, voluntarily or involuntarily, into the turbulence that constitutes his life, into the black hole that is his personality, into the whirlwind which makes up his interpersonal relationships. Different people are hurt by different aspects of the narcissist’s life and psychological make-up. Some trust him and rely on him, only to be bitterly disappointed. Others love him and discover that he cannot reciprocate. Yet others are forced to live vicariously, through him.”

The above section on Narcissistic Personality Disorder was taken from the Meadow Haven website at:

http://www.meadowhaven.org/psychissues/Personality_Disorders.htm

*

Life is a process of becoming, a combination of states
we have to go through. Where people fail is that they wish
to elect a state and remain in it. This is a kind of death.

[Anais Nin]

*

“Get out while you can. We all did and survived the leap into the unknown. There is a net (network) here now.”

[silentpurr, October 24, 2009, Part 84/250]

*

67. GoldenVeil - November 6, 2009

*

Addendum / Correction
________________________

‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton came especially to my mind when

I read criteria nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 (see above, Part 85/66)

describing Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

According to Dr. Sam Vaknin, P.H.D., in his book “Malignant Self

Love: Narcissism Revisited”, at least 5 of these criteria must be met

to merit a diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

*

68. James Mclemore - November 6, 2009

66. GoldenVeil

Each friend represents a world in us,
a world not born until they arrive,
and it is only by this meeting that
a new world is born.

[Anais Nin]

Thank you for that – that is so beautiful

You and Old Coyote both ‘rock’

69. Ill Never Tell - November 6, 2009

60. rock that boat:

‘When nibbling at Adyashanti became VERBOTEN, only then did I realize the predicament I was in!
Independent thinking, exploring, growing, becoming more me was not aloud. I WAS IN A BLOODY CULT!’

I think maybe you meant ‘not allowed’ but the ‘not aloud,’ seems to work, too, as in: ‘Independent thinking, exploring, growing, becoming more me, aloud, was NOT ALLOWED.

70. Bares Reposting - November 7, 2009

Re: 57. Old Coyote:
I hope this helps.
Fellowship of Friends related corporations:
As a matter of public record:

California:
Corporation
THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS, INC.
Number: C0622511
Date Filed: 4/21/1971
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
12587 RICES CROSSING RD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
WILLIAM LANCASTER
12587 RICES CROSSING RD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

Previously:
THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS, INC.
Number: C0622511
Date Filed: 4/21/1971
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
8712 MARYSVILLE ROAD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
GIOVANNI BUSCO
P.O. BOX 100
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
RENAISSANCE VINEYARD & WINERY, INCORPORATED
Number: C0842167
Date Filed: 3/27/1978
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
12585 RICES’S CROSSING ROAD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
ABRAHAM GOLDMAN
12896 RICE’S CROSSING RD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
THE FRIENDS OF THE GOETHE ACADEMY
[a.k.a./d.b.a.:
Apollo Performing Arts]
Number: C1537303
Date Filed: 7/16/1986
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
PO BOX 998
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
PAUL CHARPENTIER
12587 RICES CROSSING ROAD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

Previously:
THE FRIENDS OF THE GOETHE ACADEMY
[a.k.a./d.b.a.:
Apollo Performing Arts]
Number: C1537303
Date Filed: 7/16/1986
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
12587 RICES CROSSING ROAD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
DIANE R WATTS
13319 YUBA NEVADA ROAD
DOBBINS, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
THE PETRARCH PRESS
Number: C2464750
Date Filed: 9/3/2002
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
PO BOX 488
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
ABRAHAM GOLDMAN
12896 RICES CROSSING ROAD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
THE ELYSIAN SOCIETY
Number: C2882654
Date Filed: 5/22/2006
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
PO BOX 11
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
DAVID SPRINGFIELD
12896 RICES CROSSING RD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
THE HIPPOCRATES SOCIETY
Number: C1945688
Date Filed: 7/27/1995
Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
3090 GUYAN AVENUE
CHICO, CA 95973
Agent for Service of Process
ETHAN HARRIS MD
13437 ANTELOPE TRAIL
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
LEWIS CARROLL SCHOOL ASSOCIATION
Number: C1229255
Date Filed: 10/12/1983
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
9841 TEXAS HILL RD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
ROBERT STEPHSON
9841 TEXAS HILL RD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
RENAISSANCE RIBBONS, INC.
Number: C2324389
Date Filed: 1/2/2001
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
PO BOX 699
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
SCOTT BROWNE
131 SOUTH HOPOZU
GRASS VALLEY, CA 95945

Previously:
Corporation
RENAISSANCE RIBBONS, INC.
Number: C2324389
Date Filed: 1/2/2001
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
9690 STACKHOUSE LN
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
SCOTT BROWNE
131 SOUTH HOPOUZU ST
GRASS VALLEY, CA 95945

* * * * * *

Corporation
APOLLO OLIVE OIL, INC.
Number: C2496906
Date Filed: 2/19/2003
Status: active
Jurisdiction: California
Address
9028 WINDING WAY
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
GIANNI STEFANINI
9028 WINDING WAY
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
APOLLO MUTUAL WATER COMPANY
Number: C2118992
Date Filed: 9/1/1998
Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
P.O. BOX 120
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
ABRAHAM N GOLDMAN
12896 RICE’S CROSSING ROAD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Corporation
ARTEMIS COURT HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION
Number: C2011496
Date Filed: 5/22/1997
Status: suspended
Jurisdiction: California
Address
P O BOX 120
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962
Agent for Service of Process
S. M.
12740 RICES CROSSING RD
OREGON HOUSE, CA 95962

* * * * * *

Elsewhere:
Illinois:
Entity Name:
ABRAHAM N. GOLDMAN & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
File Number: 53311172
Status: GOODSTANDING
Entity Type: CORPORATION
Type of Corp: DOMESTIC BCA
Incorporation Date (Domestic): 12/27/1983
State: ILLINOIS
Agent Name: GERALD E KUBASIAK
Agent Change Date: 3/18/1998
Agent Street Address:
20 S CLARK STE 2900
Agent City: CHICAGO
Agent Zip 60603
President Name & Address:
A N GOLDMAN POB 120
12894 RICES CROSSING RD OR. HOUSE CA
Secretary Name & Address:
A N GOLDMAN POB 120
12894 RICES CROSSING RD OR. HOUSE CA
Duration Date: PERPETUAL
Annual Report Filing Date 00/00/0000 For Year 2007

Abraham N. Goldman & Associates Ltd
Address: P.O. Box 120
12896 Rices Crossing Rd.
Oregon House, CA 95962-0120

Phone: (530) 692-2267
Fax: (530) 692-2543
Attorneys
Attorneys:
Goldman, Abraham N.
Springfield, David

David Springfield
The Springfield Law Firm
12896 Rices Xing Rd/Box 693,
Oregon House, CA 95962
Tel: (530)635-3615
Fax: (530)692-9008

http://how2studylaw.com/id1.html

David Springfield, Esq. is licensed to practice in all courts in the State of California. He has experience in the field of elder abuse, health care, and art fraud litigation, including trials, bench trials, arbitrations, summary judgment motions, discovery, mediations, and appeals in both federal and state courts.

David Springfield’s practice areas include general business disputes; unfair competition and unfair business practices; Section 17200 claims; art fraud litigation; medical malpractice; elder abuse; wrongful death and survivor actions; fraud and misrepresentation; sexual harassment; defamation law; malicious prosecution and abuse of process; anti-SLAPP motions; and intellectual property law.

David Springfield has worked for the law firm of Abraham N. Goldman &
Associates for more than 10 years, first as an investigator and paralegal before joining the firm as an associate attorney in 2003. As an investigator and lead paralegal, he made a major contribution in obtaining more than $35 million in judgments against various co-conspirators in a major art fraud case, and a seven figure settlement in a civil rights/jail suicide case. As an investigator, David Springfield also helped ensure defense verdicts and pre-litigation resolution for several high-profile civil and criminal cases.

David Springfield obtained his B.S.L. degree in 2001, and his J.D. degree in 2003 from Northwestern California University School of Law (Sacramento, California). He passed the California Bar Examination on his first attempt and in his first year of practice took four significant cases to trial/judicial arbitration with successful outcomes. David Springfield also currently teaches law in Sacramento, California, and teaches California State Bar review, preparation, and writing skills to law students and bar applicants. David Springfield has been a guest speaker on the topic of elder abuse on several television programs in Southern California.

71. Yesri Baba - November 7, 2009

http://www.realitysandwich.com/are_we_possessed

Don’t make me cut and paste all of it- c’mon you can make a little time to read it.

72. dragon - November 7, 2009

another exerpt from the above, thanx Yesri it is such a fitting thing.

What the ancients call demons are a psychic phenomenon which compel us to act out behaviors contrary to our best intentions.

To quote Jung, “the psychic conditions which breed demons are as actively at work as ever. The demons have not really disappeared but have merely taken on another form: they have become unconscious psychic forces.”

“Possession,” according to Jung is “a primordial psychic phenomenon” that “denotes a peculiar state of mind characterized by the fact that certain psychic contents, the so-called complexes, take over the control of the total personality in place of the ego, at least temporarily, to such a degree that the free will of the ego is suspended.”

Though the possessed might imagine they have free will, their freedom is an illusion.
They are unwittingly being used as an instrument for some “other” energy or force to incarnate and express itself through them.

Having complexes is not necessarily pathological, as everyone has them.
What is pathological, however, is thinking we don’t have complexes, which is the precondition that makes us most vulnerable to possession.

Jung clarifies, “Everyone knows nowadays that people ‘have complexes.’ What is not so well known, though far more important theoretically, is that complexes can have us.”

The more complexes we have, the more we are possessed. We don’t need to get rid of our complexes, rather, we need to become consciously aware of them.

What is important is what we do with our complexes.

Complexes are the psychic agencies which flavor and determine our psychological view of the world.

To quote Jung, “The via regia [royal road] to the unconscious, however, is not the dream…but the complex, which is the author of dreams and of symptoms.”

Thematically organized (such as the power-complex, savior-complex, mother-complex, inferiority complex, etc.), the complexes are the vehicles that flesh out the rich repository of contents of the underlying archetypes, giving the formless archetypes a specifically human face.

Complexes are the living elemental units of the psyche, acting like the focal or nodal points of psychic life, in which the energy charge of the various archetypes of the collective unconscious are concentrated.

An emotionally-charged complex acts like the epicenter of a magnetic field, attracting and potentially assimilating into itself everything that has any resonance or relevance, or is related to itself in any way.

This inner process can be seen as it en-acts itself in the outer world when we come in contact with someone who has an activated complex and we find ourselves drafted into their process, picking up a role in their psyche.

This is an outer reflection of how a complex can attract, co-opt and subsume other parts of the environment, both inner and outer, into itself.

etc.

73. Yesri Baba - November 7, 2009

and….

Jung writes, “This state of possession shows itself almost without exception in the fact that the possessed identify themselves with the archetypal contents of their unconscious, and because they do not realize that the role which is being thrust upon them is the effect of new contents still to be understood, they exemplify these concretely in their own lives, thus becoming prophets and reformers [in the negative sense, such as falling into a megalomaniacal inflation]” People who have been swallowed up by the archetype and fallen into the unconscious, instead of shedding light on and integrating the meaning of the activated unconscious contents within themselves, are unwittingly acting out the mythic, symbolic dimension of “the role which is being thrust upon them” in concretized, literal form on the stage of life. The new contents are understood when we realize that the role which is coming through us has its origin in the collective unconscious itself, as if we are playing a role in a cosmic drama. In addition to bestowing upon us a choice of how we want to play this role, this realization snaps us out of personally identifying with the role as well. The part of us that has been unconsciously possessed becomes liberated, creating more consciousness in the process.

When we become taken over by the unconscious, to quote Jung, “…the unconscious in large measure ousts and supplants the function of the conscious mind. The unconscious usurps the reality function and substitutes its own reality. Unconscious thoughts…manifest themselves in senseless, unshakable judgments upheld in the face of reality.” When we find ourselves ignoring factual evidence and holding a “magical” belief that we rationally know not to be true, we are under a spell, being “driven” by the unconscious, which is at that point in the driver’s seat. The psychic factors which make possession possible are suggestibility, lack of critical discernment, unwillingness or inability to self-reflect, fearfulness, propensity to superstition and prejudice. The contents that take us over when we are possessed by the unconscious appear as phobias, exaggerated affects, peculiar convictions, idiosyncrasies, stubborn plans, compulsions and obsessions, all of which are not open for discussion or correction.

Demons work through our psyche, “managing our perceptions” in a way such that we aren’t able to see their influence. Demons bedazzle, bewitch, and bedevil consciousness in such a way that we become blind to our own underlying, assumed viewpoint. We fall under their spell when we become entranced by our own version of reality in such a way so as to think the world “objectively” exists as we perceive it, separate from our own mind. In other words, we fall under the power of the demons when we become fixated in our non-negotiable viewpoint and imagine that what we are seeing objectively exists, in solid form, outside of ourselves, in a way that applies to everyone. We then draw to ourselves all the evidence we need to prove to ourselves the seeming truth of our self-evident viewpoint, confirming our delusion that we are separate from and not participating in helping to create the very situation we find ourselves in, which we are ultimately creating. I call this “Aparticipatory Delusional Syndrome,” or ADS for short (please see my article “Delusions of Separation”).

On the other hand, we break the spell…..

etc.

74. WhaleRider - November 7, 2009

Cult Breaks Ground for Naming of New Complex

Yuba County (URP!)- Ground pandering ceremonies are under way in the small minded Northern Californian town of Oregon House at Apollo, the Worldwide Homosexual Octave Recruiting Enterprise Headquarters of the Fellowship of Friends, Inc, AKA Pathway to Presence and brothel of Robert E. Burton, the cult’s elderly gay founder, for the renaming of the haphazard series of buildings that have mysteriously remained erect on the declining property over the course of the 3 decadent decades of the cult’s existence.

The homographic area in question will now be simply known and the “Guru Complex”. It will be comprised of the “Lodge at Lake Narcissus”, “Viagra Hall”, the “Cher Herpes” Restaurant, the “Superstition Theatre”, the “Office of Enablers”, and the “Sodom Galleria” where Burton lives, exercises his demons, and plies his graft.

It was reportedly a wordless, mind-numbing event; nobody was allowed to say anything or ask any questions. And in a new de-evolutionary development, local town-humans have observed the cult followers visibly mumbling to themselves and apparently practicing their thought blocking techniques with the use of iPods, which the followers lovingly call, “Personal Sequencing Devices.”

75. GoldenVeil - November 7, 2009

*

“When we find ourselves ignoring factual evidence and holding a “magical” belief that we rationally know not to be true, we are under a spell, being “driven” by the unconscious, which is at that point in the driver’s seat. The psychic factors which make possession possible are suggestibility, lack of critical discernment, unwillingness or inability to self-reflect, fearfulness, propensity to superstition and prejudice.” *

* from “Are we Possessed?” by Paul Levy ~ thank you, Yesri Baba!

*

A leaf fluttered in through the window this morning,
as if supported by the rays of the sun,
a bird settled on the fire escape,
joy in the task of coffee,
joy accompanied me as I walked.

[Anais Nin]

*

Some thoughts this morning…

I find myself thinking in ‘Work’ terms, like:

Identification is Identification

Whether expressing the highly positive emotion of dedicating to ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton a solo piano performance of Chopin’s Ballade No. 1 in G minor, adjacent to a rose garden whose design reflects as its basis the golden section; or following the direction
of Charles Manson to drive up Cielo Drive and express some of the darkest negative emotions possible by committing barbaric acts
of murder and mayhem; or supporting Adolph Hitler in his plan to genetically cleanse the world by exterminating the Jewish people; identification is identification.

How strong this Fellowship of Friends identification, or ‘possession’
is, that years later, I still use these terms…

So, I just wanted to say, whether it is inspiration from ‘the 44’
or the ‘Devil’s work’, it is still only Identification,
or, as Paul Levy calls it, possession.

* * *

I wanted to point you all to another public charity, a 501(c)3, to
check out. I was thinking that although some of you might say,
“more ‘life people’ that are ‘asleep'”, some of you might like to consider its accomplishments, especially since its birth was so
close to that of the Fellowship of Friends.

“Seva Foundation started as a small group with a big idea, and the idea was this: To be fully human, we must translate our compassion and concern into useful service.”

It, too, is an international organization and has cultural interests.

“Working in nine countries in addition to the United States,
Seva Foundation supports projects in the area of health and wellness, community development, environmental protection
and cultural preservation.”

This foundation does not have a strong sense of exclusivity.
Seva Foundation believes “…that compassion is not just about helping those less fortunate than ourselves, it’s about the realization that we are all connected as one human family.”

This is not an organization that secludes itself and promotes luxurious elitism and secret seductions. And its financial records are completely transparent, right on their website; click on Financial Info. Wouldn’t this be a great role model for any public charity?

http://www.seva.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_history

*

It is the function of art to renew our perception.
What we are familiar with we cease to see.
The writer shakes up the familiar scene, and,
as if by magic, we see a new meaning in it.

[Anais Nin]

*

76. Ill Never Tell - November 7, 2009

74. WhaleRider:

‘the Worldwide Homosexual Octave Recruiting Enterprise Headquarters’

Better known, and affectionately called by the locals: WHORE Headquarters.

77. dragon - November 8, 2009

Recruitment Office:

78. arthur - November 8, 2009

I dont recall that Elizabeth Clare Prophet was ever mentioned on this blog.

an article by the Associated Press written by Matthew Brown writes some interesting things about this almost FOF clone cult.

“Mother” as they called her died last month. A “crisis of succession” has gripped this group who thought the world would end in the 90’s.
I wonder if Robert Burton plagiarized this doomsday “thought”?

So why did I join the CULT (any cult)? Maybe the ‘devil made me do it” is not so imginary after all.

79. arthur - November 8, 2009

“Church president Valerie McBride would not reveal the size of the church’s membership except to say it was in the thousands and has spread recedntly across parts of South America and Russia”

Boy, they are in for it. Oh, the Church is called Church Universal and Triumphant. Sort of like the FOF Cult here to channel the dead to save the living.

80. Daily Cardiac - November 9, 2009

Silentpurr – 84-250:

“Daily Cardiac, I am wondering why you visit this blog? I myself do because I have an interest in spontaneous and honest dialog with people with whom I share an unusual history”

I am always a little surprised when people ask me that question; as you are the 5th or 6th to do so. I’m surprised because I think it should be obvious. I visit this blog for the same reasons as you do and that everyone else does. You say you have “an interest in spontaneous and honest dialog with people with whom I share an unusual history.” I would say the same holds true for me. We may be on different sides of the FoF issue but our motivations to tell our story are not that different. How could they be? People, regardless of their position on an issue still share the same human psychological traits and tendencies, the same hard wiring, if you will.

But to put your question in the simplest of terms; I would say I, like you, am here to tell of my own experiences in the FoF. My story, as a current member, is somewhat different from the ex members who regularly post here, although I’m sure we had some common experiences as well. But because my story is somewhat different it is necessary for it to be told. If we all give each other the benefit of the doubt – that we are all seekers of truth – then the telling of both sides of the issue is necessary; the side in opposition of RB and the FoF and the side who supports the organization and it’s leader.

There is a saying from Shakespeare – Truth will out. In other words the truth will become known eventually. This happens even if some or most of the participants try to mask or avoid the truth.

Basically I believe that when people on different sides of an issue engage in a genuine dialog it is more likely that “the truth will out”, there can be no other result. However many ex members already feel the truth is out about RB and the FoF, and they probably feel that they don’t need me to aide in that discovery.

But I don’t share that viewpoint and later into this post I’ll explain why I don’t. First of all, in order for truth to be revealed it is necessary that we start from a place where it is obscured by falsehood. In fact, without the presence of falsehood truth cannot be known, just as Lao Tzu says “Without ugliness there can be no such thing as beauty.”

There are several bloggers who believe I am here as an FoF shill, or apologist. Needless to say they also see the FoF and an evil and corrupt group and such a group would by nature have to be on the side of falsehood. So if that is true they should, in a sense, be thankful for my participation knowing that it is only through falsehood that the truth will out. By the same token if I am a bringer of truth then I should welcome the stories, comments and conclusions given by those who oppose the FoF. Since several bloggers here are bothered, irritated and even incensed by my participation, it’s safe to say they do not share that logic.

This is a key point in our discussion: The truth does not fear falsehood, for it has no reason to fear it. It is more powerful, more dynamic, more relevant, more life-giving. But falsehood does indeed fear truth and it has every right to fear it. Truth will always defeat falsehood in the end.

Getting back to why I don’t feel the truth has been revealed about the FoF, here are some points:

Contrary to the notions of several ex members, what is actually stated on the blog bears no real connection to the truth. By that I mean nothing written here can be ascertained as being truthful or not truthful merely on the basis of it being stated, corroborated or agreed with.

Yet several ex members equate what is written here as being factual simply because they are on the same side of the issue as the writer. Others interpret events that did happen incorrectly because they cannot distinguish their own subjective attitudes or beliefs from a more objective or universal reality. They equate their own beliefs with a larger truth while this is not a given.

When I write comments on the blog there is no one standing over me preventing me from writing the truth and there is no one encouraging me to write what is false. There is also no one preventing me from writing what is false or encouraging me to write what is true. I would assume it is the same for everyone else. This fact alone doesn’t mean much but in relation to other realities it defines why words alone mean very little, the words of current members and ex members alike.

Aristotle said “Man is a political animal.” He could have also said that “Man is a lying animal.” But this is no secret as all developed societies without exception accept this statement as fact. If man were not a lying animal there would be no need for “Due Process”, no need for contracts whenever people make purchases on credit, and certainly no need for lie detector machines. People would simply fulfill their contractual obligations.(I’m not referring to those whose fortune may change preventing them from making good on their obligations.)

There would be no need for “truth in advertising” laws, (which no one enforces anyway) no millions of victims being scammed at this very moment, or no one falling victim to other crimes of fraud. One could give numerous other examples in support of this fact. This also does not alter the reality that man is capable of telling or reaching truth under certain conditions.

When are men most apt to lie? They are most apt to lie when there is something at stake; when something can be gained by lying or lost through the telling of the truth. This something can be tangible or not. It can be something small or large. It can be related to something they have or to something they want. Man lies because it is in his DNA to lie.

It’s been said that the worst kind of lie is the lie we tell to ourselves, especially if we believe it. People do not become liars when they join the FoF and they do not stop lying when they depart from the FoF. The most basic and elemental laws of probability will substantiate that fact. All men lie, both knowingly and without knowing it, especially those with the motivations to lie; and ex members do not lack motivation to lie about the FoF. When people put time, energy, money, identify into anything and that thing does not pan out, does not come to fruition, meet expectations, it is cause for many different emotions to circulate; anger, disappointment, self pity, loathing, etc. All these are suitable motives to turn against the thing once cherished and become a conductor for falsehood. Now the same can be said of current members; whoever has placed their identify into something they still believe in will fight strenuously to protect it; may even lie to protect it. The point is that truth exists independent of words. Words that proclaim truth can be either true or false or some combination of the two. Proof of truth has to come from something other than statements or renditions.

So if, as I suggest, the words written here cannot be taken as truth, how can we arrive at the truth? There are several ways to reliably reach truth. The story of King Solomon cutting the infant into two is a prime example of bypassing words to reach truth. The words of the false “mother” proclaiming truth did not reveal truth but the right action of Solomon allowed for the identity of the real mother to be known.

There are several ways to uncover truth aside from the “face value” of the words. I recently suggested to someone on the blog that he take my words at “face value.” What I see is the tendency for ex members to take practically all the comments of other ex members at face value while taking almost nothing from a current member/supporter at face value. If that is the case there can be no meaningful discussion because the playing field is not level. I asked to have my words taken at face value to level the playing field and allow for a true discussion. But in fact it is wiser to take nothing said by either side purely at face value.

One way to reach truth is to follow reason. The truth is many things but it is always reasonable. There can be no such thing as an unreasonable truth as truth determines reason. There can be harsh truths, even brutal truths but there cannot be an unreasonable truth. It’s like saying “that rainstorm is unreasonable.” So when people stray from reason they also stray from truth.

It is reasonable to state that RB has sex with FoF members. It is reasonable to state one’s own opinion about the correctness or lack of correctness for a spiritual teacher to engage in that practice. But it stops being reasonable, and truthful, when people draw their own erroneous conclusions such as “Having sex with members means RB is a charlatan”, or means he is abusing his power because there is no evidence (beyond opinion) to support it.

Here’s one example of departing from reason/truth. Several ex members have referred to the FoF as being a “rape factory” and RB engaging in no less than the rape of male students. No ex member has ever challenged or called out those who make this claim.

The guidelines for what constitutes rape are narrow and definite. Back on page 82 or so Nigel posted a definition of rape that is pretty concise. It bears no resemblance to anything going on in the FoF. There are many ex members here who accuse RB of abusing his power by having sex with students.

Some people here are in the dark about what constitutes abuse of power or sexual harassment. Several here, it seems, have drawn conclusions about abuses without even being clear on what constitutes abuse.

If a CEO of a company propositions an employee and states “if you have sex with me you will get promoted” or “if you don’t have sex with me you might get demoted, or even lose your job” – this is sexual harassment. If a CEO invites an employee for an overnight trip aboard his yacht and they engage in consensual sex it is not sexual harassment or abuse of power. It is life, the way things are. People gravitate towards power and status. They are attracted to it because they want something out of the deal. It is not abuse of power to receive the adulation or affection that power and status naturally attracts. It is abuse of power to manipulate or coerce someone by using one’s power or status.

Abuses exist in this life for sure; Gurdjieff called this world a “pain factory.” But life is also a teacher. We are here to learn about ourselves first and foremost. When people relinquish their free will and submit to the suggestions or proposals of others and then recoil from the experience at a later date there is a lesson to be learned and the lesson in this case is not about abuse but about self examination, about developing a right understanding of what free will really means and what the consequences of giving up free will really means.

There are several realities I find to be telling in ex member’s arguments. They call the FoF a cult and Robert a sociopath and yet he has brought their search for spiritual truth (awakening) to an end seemingly. The FoF proclaims itself to be a conscious school of awakening, markets itself to be such, so we can assume that anyone who joined was looking for just that – a conscious school. Now according to voices here the FoF is discovered to be a cult and people leave, but it appears to me that no one has continued the search.

This is puzzling and telling at the same time. It flies in the face of human industriousness and fortitude. Stories abound documenting the lives of people who are continuously rejected, whether it be a career path they want or a novel they are trying to publish and the repeated rejections only strengthen their resolve until they triumph over all the obstacles and realize their dreams. But here we find a group of individuals who went looking for a School, found a cult and then simply abandoned the search for a real school. Several here have said they are no longer looking for a teacher, or a school.

My logic would be that if I decided I needed school and I found a cult instead it would only make me look all the more until I found what I was after. And if some are still looking no one seems to have found a real school yet. Do ex members still believe there is such thing as a school of awakening, or do they believe schools are a myth, an invention of some one’s fertile imagination? I know some have become affiliated with the Gurdjieff Foundation after FoF but that organization does not claim to be a school and it appears they do not hold as primary the idea of Being Present, or Self Remembering.

To me oddities like stopping the search are “Solomon” moments. If people give up the search for a school after finding a cult it may mean they were not all that committed to finding a school in the first place. On the other hand if, deep down, some individuals really perceived the FoF to be a real school and left it anyway that would certainly explain why they would not be looking for one anymore. What would be the point?

Silent Purr, you also said “As the integrity of the ’school’ began to fail, I am certain that the people most dedicated to TRUTH had no alternative but to leave.”

Integrity is one of those words that can have as many interpretations as there are people to ponder its meaning. Have you considered that there are meanings and reasons for why things are the way they are that run counter to appearances, or to anyone’s pre-conceived ideas?

81. Jomo Piñata - November 9, 2009

Lacuna Piñata,

You wrote a whole lot above to which I am not responding at this moment. I am only taking a swing at this little lacuna piñata. You wrote:

if I decided I needed school and I found a cult instead it would only make me look all the more until I found what I was after

I understand that you think this is true, that you predict this about yourself. But wouldn’t you agree that people are changed by their experiences?

What if, on the basis of their experiences, people come to the conclusion that what they were looking for either doesn’t exist or, if it does exist, is something to be avoided?

How do you know that you yourself might not come to such a reformulated position on the basis of your own experience?

82. Jomo Piñata - November 9, 2009

I will take a swing at another lacuna in the epistle to the pharisees you posted at 85/80, O Lacuna Piñata:

Integrity is one of those words that can have as many interpretations as there are people to ponder its meaning.

Hmm. There are many examples of integrity, O Lacuna Piñata. But the meaning of the word “integrity” is only so elastic. Stretch it beyond what it means and it loses all meaning.

I keep thinking back to that Iraqi election where Saddam Hussein ran unopposed. An astounding 99+% of all ballots cast were cast for Saddam Hussein. More than a thousand ballots contained a vote for Saddam written in the voter’s own blood. Surely this is an example of “democracy” and “free and fair election,” don’t you think?

Or does this example stretch the word “democracy” or the phrase “free and fair election” so much that it loses all meaning?

83. Jomo Piñata - November 9, 2009

First of all, in order for truth to be revealed it is necessary that we start from a place where it is obscured by falsehood. In fact, without the presence of falsehood truth cannot be known,

Another lacuna, O Lacuna Piñata. Bear with me while I swing away.

I think your premise is much too broad. It’s a little bit clever, I think, and that’s why I am inclined to call it a “sophistry.” There’s something appealing about it: you lay out a premise, and then you reason from it; but I don’t think the premise you lay out is true in the general case.

I think in some circumstances what’s true is obscured by a deceptive appearance. Are you saying that this is true of the Fellowship, that the many narrative accounts illustrating the Big Kahuna’s malignant narcissism and psychopathy obscure a more fundamental truth that he is altruistic and holy beyond all description?

84. Mikey - November 9, 2009

3 swings, 3 home runs, no one on base.
(Who is on first; what is on second; I don’t know is on third; the pitcher is an easy target).

85. Daily Cardiac - November 9, 2009

Jomo,

That was a pretty quick response to my long post, from 80 to 81 – did you really digest it, ponder it, or did you swing from the knee?

86. Dr. Pangloss - November 9, 2009

80. Daily Cardiac
“Here’s one example of departing from reason/truth. Several ex members have referred to the FoF as being a “rape factory” and RB engaging in no less than the rape of male students. No ex member has ever challenged or called out those who make this claim.”

Ok. I’m an ex-member. The FOF is not a “rape factory”. However the Fellowship of Friends is a Doofus factory. And a factory for sleazy lawyers, psychiatrists and psycho olive oilers.

87. brucelevy - November 9, 2009

85. Daily Cardiac

“Jomo,

That was a pretty quick response to my long post, from 80 to 81 – did you really digest it, ponder it, or did you swing from the knee?”

Give me a break. You don’t need to spend quality time with dog shit to know it stinks.

88. brucelevy - November 9, 2009

“Ok. I’m an ex-member. The FOF is not a “rape factory”. However the Fellowship of Friends is a Doofus factory. And a factory for sleazy lawyers, psychiatrists and psycho olive oilers.”

Actually, on the level of spiritual and psychological rape and manipulation it most certainly is a rape factory.

89. Mikey - November 9, 2009

Dear Daily Cardiac:
I find it heartwarming that you are interested in posting here; opposition definitely has its place in “open & honest dialogue”.
However, anonymous testimonials and endorsements don’t have much weight or merit with most folks, no matter how clever. (Unless you’re just trying to sell something). But of course you may have other reasons for your rambling posts. My conclusion is that you’re really not very proud of your membership in the Fellowship of Friends, otherwise you would not hide your identity. Don’t be afraid, words can’t possibly hurt you or shake your beliefs.

90. Jomo Piñata - November 9, 2009

Lacuna Piñata/85

“That was a pretty quick response to my long post, from 80 to 81 – did you really digest it, ponder it, or did you swing from the knee?”

I didn’t think those were the only two possibilities.

I’ve responded to several specific things you wrote. Each time I identified the proposition in your post to which I was responding. I haven’t pretended to respond to the whole thing. (Is that required?) There’s no slight of hand in my approach.

Are you criticizing the fact that I responded quickly?

91. Susan Zannos - November 9, 2009

Dear Daily Cardiac:
When it becomes sufficiently clear that the search for meaning is an unfortunate human abberation which not only does not produce results but has produced the horrors of human history, the search ceases.

92. ton - November 9, 2009

dc, # 80
if i ‘swing from the knee’ you’ll have to accept it… as for the ‘digestion’ of something you’ve obviously put a lot of effort into, personally when dealing with bullshit i only need a whiff, thankyou. yes you’ve returned and you’ve been hard at work crafting your latest installment, but once again this bit of sophistry proves nothing… to think of all the effort you put into this and yet you are not convincing or fooling anyone, yours is a confusing and illogical argument designed to deceive… but who are you deceiving? yourself and only you. this is all about a need you feel to support your own self-deceptions vis-a-vis your beloved ‘teacher’ and your little cult… but i’ll do you a favor dc, i’ll be your mirror: in your own words you refer to “others” — try turning this around, apply it to yourself. believe me dc, you really only fool yourself:

“Others interpret events that did happen incorrectly because they cannot distinguish their own subjective attitudes or beliefs from a more objective or universal reality. They equate their own beliefs with a larger truth while this is not a given.”

the following sophism shows just how myopic and out of touch dc is:

“One way to reach truth is to follow reason. The truth is many things but it is always reasonable. There can be no such thing as an unreasonable truth as truth determines reason. There can be harsh truths, even brutal truths but there cannot be an unreasonable truth. It’s like saying “that rainstorm is unreasonable.” So when people stray from reason they also stray from truth.”

here’s a little story: once upon a time, not so long ago, the ‘truth’ was believed to be that the earth was at the center of the universe. that seemed reasonable at the time and in fact belief in this untruth was supported using ‘reason’ — models were constructed to explain observations, to ‘rationally’ explain how the sun, planets and stars revolved around the earth… this so-called ‘truth’ was an accepted ‘fact’ which was supported by reason…. people were burned at the stake for statements to the contrary… see ‘giordano bruno.’

here’s a corollary: once upon a time there was a little cult who believed that it was the center of the universe, the supporters and enablers proposed many seemingly ‘well-reasoned’ arguments as to why this was so, but really it had to do with a need in these cultists to feel somehow ‘superior’ to others, as if they were ‘god’s only chosen’ and therefore ‘special.’ some of those who came to the cult learned of the cults’ deceptions, they learned that the cult was in fact not the center of the universe and they left the cult. when they left these former-cultists were declared by the cult to be blasphemers of the worst sort, and the cultists symbolically burned these blasphemers at the stake through pronouncing the very ‘well-reasoned-truth’ that anyone who left the cult would become ‘food for the moon.’

dc, here’s a book you should read:
http://www.amazon.com/Affect-Regulation-Origin-Self-Neurobiology/dp/0805834591

93. Jomo Piñata - November 9, 2009

“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” –Albert Einstein

94. ritsadeguritsa - November 9, 2009

deleted at the author’s request

95. Panoritsa - November 9, 2009

why do I get the feeling someone does not receive enough attention in the cult?

96. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 9, 2009

80. Daily Cardiac:

‘There is a saying from Shakespeare – Truth will out. In other words the truth will become known eventually. This happens even if some or most of the participants try to mask or avoid the truth.’

Shakespeare also said: ‘Foul deeds will rise, though all the earth o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes.’ Hamlet, Prince of Denmark; Act I. Scene II.

And that is one of the basic reasons this blog came into existence, has produced 85 pages and thousands of postings, and will continue to exist. Your posting here is not barred. So, please, continue to speak your truth. If anything, your presence is more simulating and prolonging of dialog that, at a minimum, is revelatory.

And, BTW, you did not mention this possibility: that former members have stopped looking for a teacher and a real school because they FOUND what they were looking for – and it isn’t/wasn’t Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. And, if that were the case for just 10% of the 15,000 former members (which is a good possibility), that would mean that 1500 people, that are out, may have the opposite view of what truth may be compared to the 1500, or so, current members who are still seekers of truth. I suggest you entertain the possibility that your thinking may be faulty.

97. James Mclemore - November 9, 2009

Daily Cardiac –

I’m sorry but I just do not find much in there to ‘ponder’.
‘Wouldnt You Like To Know’ just touched on something that stood out for me also. One of your little points or themes appears to be that even though you have nothing whatsoever to base it on, you seem to be assuming that because some of the people, for whom it ‘appears’ to you, are no longer looking for the truth in something external to themselves, that it must mean they have stopped all investigations. You actually have no idea what people who post here are doing or have done. It may in part be that it is simply that many here have discovered that ‘truth’ does not exclusively inhabit any specific external anything, neither person nor place nor group of any kind, nor even any particular body of ideas. I am actually surprised that it seems you have not discovered this yet.

Also I think many of the people who post here do not often share what particular paths they have taken nor what they have personally found in the course of their lives. They do that elsewhere, in other formats and among their friends. This discussion is not about that. This discussion is quite simply for pointing out a pseudo-religious scam (a cult), trying to warn others away from it, and trying to help those who were once entrapped in it. It is true you will find very little debate here about the pros and cons of the Fellowship of Friends. Most of the people here are way, way, waaayyyy past that my friend. This blog is much simpler than you wish it was.
Your writings lately become more and more difficult for me to read. I suspect you spend quite a bit of time composing and editing. They quite literally begin to just make me sleepy as I try to get through them.

98. fofblogmoderator - November 9, 2009

94 is new

99. nige - November 9, 2009

80 Daily Cardiac

Mark Twain might have said – “Daily Cardiac’s posts were written by Girard Haven or by someone calling himself Daily Cardiac”. The fact is, it is the same, slowed down, formatory, convoluted, not making sense, CRAP! Nigel.

100. GoldenVeil - November 10, 2009

Dear Friends,

Could the below autobiographical post possibly be the ‘Truth?’

If so, it describes an environment that could not possibly be called, at least as described by this former student, a “rape factory”.

This is not a complex polemical discussion on Truth vs. Falsehood.

It is a topical yet personal history of one student’s own experience within the “inner circle” of ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton.

* * *

Former student says:

February 10, 2007 at 8:14 pm

I was a member of the Fellowship of Friends (FOF) for 12 years, though that was over 12 years ago. Yet it has only been in the last year or so that I now feel free to speak about my experience(s).

I joined when I was a full blooded, testosterone active youth of 20 years old.
My first two years were spent in a centre – a FOF outpost, where students lived together, or met up to discuss and practice the “Work”. These were times of joyful optimism, there was a sense of purpose and challenge, as I religiously read the required books and diligently performed the set exercises; all the time knowing that my attempt at Self-Remembering would produce the required results in no time at all… The only disappointment I felt was that I was stuck in this outpost of a centre. Where I really wanted to be was at the heart, where it all happened – close to the Teacher!

This desire was given extra impetus after the Teacher swept through the centre with his train of acolytes, as part of one of his exotic journeys which he was very keen on taking and of which I would partake, several years down the road. I followed everyone’s lead and bowed down in awe and made up my mind that I would up roots and move to Renaissance, as it was then called.

Indeed within a twinkling of an eye, I was soon laboring beneath a brilliant sun, building by day and burning by night! The days were long an tiring, the work hard, but the evenings were special: plenty of company, good food, lots to drink and an incredible star studded, night sky full of promise.

It wasn’t long before I got my first invitation to dine at the honored top table and soon began to feed on the attention I was being given by the Teacher. As the omnipotent, all seeing, conscious being he claimed to be, I naturally assumed everyone was the beneficiary of such cosmic affection.

So it came as a surprise when he invited me to join him on his next world tour. By this time my ego was up, I felt confident, I was definitely going somewhere. Of course I paid scant warning to the occasional asides I would receive advising me to be careful. Careful? What do I need to be careful about? I have sanctuary beneath the wings of grace.

The world tour went off without a hitch. It had it’s moments of course. Traveling with a small band of young men for eight weeks is not without it’s flash points. I for one would have certainly appreciated a bit more female company – and I don’t mean for the reasons you might be thinking. I just feel more relaxed in more balanced environment.

Anyway, after those eight weeks of high living, it was back to the vineyard by day and the wine by night. And it was probably as a result of the latter that I soon found myself proposing to a woman who I had been eyeing for awhile and had felt attracted to and which I felt was reciprocated. I suppose in a normal situation we would have simply had an affair, found out if everything worked and if we were really suited for each other. Only then made a decision about long term commitments. However, the rules stated no pre-marital sex and as I was observing the rules as this stage, there was little option; especially as there was something about this place which seemed to have the effect of boosting the sexual energy. Like the libido running on rocket fuel.

Of course marriage meant that my frequent invitations from the Teacher became less frequent. But then he had never been an open advocate of male female coupling in any form, I think he viewed it as one of the many “unnecessary necessities” that occur between the opposite sexes, children being the another. Actually I now believe women themselves fell into that category, unless they were old enough to be his mother and then he treated them like queens!

Anyway true to form I had child, after which life in the FOF became quite run of the mill, if ever it can be. Unfortunately, the marriage was not fated to last. Partly due to the artificial circumstances surrounding it’s conception, as it became evident we were not suited to each other and the child had only delayed the inevitable. Also there felt like an immense external pressure, largely due I’m sure to the active singles scene. After a long day in the field, it was sometimes too much to resist, for in spite of the rules, it was evident that students were hitting the hay left, right and centre. This was only further fuelled by a steady stream of younger, more liberally minded students making their pilgrimages from Europe and beyond.

So it was more or less back to square one. Well almost. I was now single again, eligible and yes, back on the high table!

You may be wondering what had happened to the “Work” within my life. Well I was still doing it – at least I was going to meetings, following the exercises, paying my way – if not financially, with the sweat of my brow, by working the land. But to be quite honest my main memories of this period was that I was the member of an exclusive social club, complete with all the allurements a youth in his mid-twenties could wish for.

I even fell in love again and this time decided to try out the relationship first, though I knew it involved tasting of “forbidden” fruits and liable to a hefty fine or worse. But the passionate union which followed, with its depths of intense feeling and emotion which two people encounter when trying to experience the moment, within the moment which the act of making love demands, seemed to justify my decision and still makes me shudder to this day. The only response I recall at the time was: this can’t be wrong – give me more!

In fact my wish was duly granted for it was at this point that things took a turn – not necessarily for the worse in the beginning, but certainly in another direction.

The most memorable moment occurred after one of the Teacher’s so called Symposiums, this was the name of the all male dinners he was in the habit of hosting each weekend. Indeed true to their title they mainly amounted to little more than drinking parties, taking more of the form of a Bacchanalia without the accompanying Maenads – though I was soon to discover there a sting in the tail.

After dinner it was the custom of the Teacher to retire while the rest of the young men hung around and chatted. I think I was trying to recall how much Cognac I had consumed, when the Teacher’s man servant came and whispered in my ear that the Teacher would like to speak to me. So I slipped out of the room, making my way along the hall to his study, where I knocked on his door.

When I entered he looked a little surprised, but then invited me to sit down on the couch next to him. This was all very cozy I thought. I began to wonder what words of wisdom he might impart, as I definitely felt in the mood for something insightful. So you can imagine my surprise when he reached over and started to undo my trousers. If fact, I was so taken back that I must have slipped into a kind of reverie, for the next thing I was aware of was the Teacher’s head between my legs performing fellatio.

Strangely enough I did not resist, which would have been the obvious reaction, as I had always considered myself very straight, finding the whole gay scene somewhat distasteful – at least not up my particular street! However, probably the combination of the cognac, with the fact that this was my all-knowing Teacher, plus the no doubt subconscious curiosity of what it might be like to do it with another man, permitted me to submit and allow the whole process to reach it’s natural conclusion – or unnatural conclusion, depending on which way you view it.

Anyway, obviously delighted by my apparent willingness and after taking a drink of water, the Teacher then confessed that he had not expected me to come, but another boy by the same name. So it seemed I had jumped the queue – for queue it certainly was. With my subsequent entry into the inner sanctum, not only did the concept of a “Man Number Seven” take on a whole different meaning, but I was soon to discover that I had become the member of what can only be described as a rather exclusive male harem.

As I was ushered out into the night air and mind played over what had taken place, the stars above which had once offered so much promise appeared to pale a little. Though part of me cried out violation, another part was quite frankly bewildered – almost intrigued. The sexual part wasn’t that much of a big deal, whether it’s a man or woman giving you a blow job it amounts to much the same, especially if you close your eyes, which I did. The worrying part was who was initiating it and why? It’s not as if the signals were not there. A few knowing, dare I say complicit, students had warned me, but I had either mocked them, or turned a deaf ear. Unfortunately I was unable to answer the question “why” and even if I had plucked up the courage to ask him I’m sure he would have given me some cosmic justification from higher forces. All I know is that the words and phrases he had uttered up until now and had once seemed so full of meaning and significance, had now lost their magic. For I was forced to contemplate the unthinkable: were they simply part of an insidious seduction strategy. Whatever the reason, my immediate concern was how was I going to handle this?

As it turned out, I did not have to worry, for I was quick to discover that the Teacher did all the handling for me. Indeed, the flood gates were now open and I was given a good handling at regular intervals, often without breaks in between. This man had a voracious appetite. Not only that, I was expected to put in my whole quota of daily labor at the same time.

However, far from being exhausted I also noticed that my sexual prowess toward the opposite sex began to manifest stronger than ever. It was as if the one sided clandestine rituals which were taking place within the Teacher’s study needed to be compensated by the intermingling of some good wholesome male / female energies.

And that’s what happened, for it wasn’t long before I found myself on what can only be described as a sexual rollercoaster ride. As the demands of my Teacher grew, I in turn sought refuge in the beds of willing females who would remind me of who I was, or who I thought I should be, though by this time all I felt was confusion. Worse still, I began to treat the women in the manner in which I felt I was being treated. It’s a fact that when one is seen to be close to the Teacher, one takes on a sort of reflected aura. Other students, especially newer ones, start to treat you as if you have something to offer (by proxy, as it were). This imaginary power is then yours to use, or given the quality of my immediate role model, to abuse. For a little favor on their part, I too could in turn offer them a hopeful word or two, especially if she was young and attractive!

Fortunately, I was awake enough to recognize how much I abhorred this kind of behavior. Even after many years I am still highly sensitive to this area and still regard it is one of the worst kinds of psychological abuses of power. To think it was a method that my former Teacher practiced on a daily basis, without so much as a scruple. I’m sure he still does.

So I have to pose the question once again, where had the “Work” gone in my life? Well, it had become smothered. The fire which had once driven my search for truth had all but gone out and I felt I was stumbling through a haze of thick smoke. One thing I did do was start observing the “Teacher’s actions with a new and critical eye. My proximity in his life gave me the opportunity to see things from the inside, so to speak, and often what I saw made me gasp. His outward persona was that of a powerful and charismatic leader – charisma is a quality irrespective of the person’s personality and can be found in everyone from depots through business me, to artists and has the power to attract, shock and awe! However, what I observed in private was an insecure, selfish man, with a raft of infantile tendencies, which were evident not only in his reactions to external events, but in his penchant for trying to predict the future – often catastrophes on a large scale. I even experienced moments where I felt sorry for this individual, as his inflated ego tried to provide an explanation for “everything and nothing”, while ascribing it to some higher force. (Much of this behavior only made sense later on when I became deeply involved with the works of Jung – part of my post FOF healing process.)

But now I sought ways out. First I tried confiding with a few close friends about what was taking place, but it was evident to see that even those people I regarded as my closest allies looked at me with disbelief, as I revealed the alter ego of their beloved Teacher. Such unsavory information was too much to swallow and they chose either not to hear, or to excuse his behavior in some fashion or other. Indeed, like I had been, they and 1500 other people were under his spell.

Next I decided to leave Renaissance and attempt to re-activate my work in some FOF outpost in the middle of no-where – at least that’s how it felt. But still the Teacher tracked me down and though I wasn’t physically with him, he made his physical presence known.

Finally there was one last recourse. I had to muster the courage to confront this man and express my feelings about the whole situation; something which I had until this point been unable to do with any conviction. I knew I had to prepare myself, as I was pretty certain what the reaction would be, having witnessed him deal with so called ‘rebellious’ students in the past.

I was not to be disappointed. In fact I only had to utter a few key words which appeared to question his behavior. At some point I must have made mention to a “moral deficiency”, which really put the cat among the pigeons. Anyway, it wasn’t long before the silent and overbearing wrath of someone who I can only describe as verging on fully fledged egomania, was threatening me with portents of hell and damnation, or words from some passage you could quite easily find in the Old Testament.

But I stood my ground, besides at this point I had little left to loose. In fact I began to grow in confidence as the initial burden fell away and a sense of relief crept over me. I began to sense the shallowness and immaturity of his words – those of a selfish child, who has been deprived of a handful of sweets. And that was that!

The days leading up to my leaving the FOF where very painful – the stars had now well and truly gone out. I just knew I had to go, but it was still the equivalent of emotional amputation. I had come to realize that I had over the years grown to become two separate persons, my work persona had gone one way, while who I really was had remained true. It was the latter which provided the chink of light through which I could make my escape. However getting my two parts to re-unite once again and work in some kind of harmony would take another twelve years of rehabilitative effort. Before this would happen, I would have to plunge very deep.

I left the FOF with nothing, or so it seemed. All my physical attachments were severed – my so called “friends”, family, home were pulled from under one’s feet, like some perverse party trick. I only had my thoughts, my recollections – which were to haunt me for years. Then there was the fear of what would happen to my during my return to “life*”. After all I had now passed beneath hell’s arch, which bore the inscription: “All hope abandon ye who enter here”.

However, this is the subject of another episode: of rebuilding, reaffirmation and re-gaining confidence and self-esteem, all of which had been pretty much knocked out of me. What I can safely say is that you only know you are brainwashed if you are fortunate to emerge from out the other side. Until then it is like a drug that slowly permeates you mind, as you become part of a small world with it’s crooked and twisted ways and utterly blind and deaf to the faces and voices of sanity on the outside.

I therefore dedicate the above to those who find the will or the way – or simply the luck – to make it out and so have the possibility of knowing what it is to taste true freedom.

* “Life” or “life people” is the name given to those outside the FOF and therefore effectively dead, or without possibilities. A wonderful piece of irony!

* * *

[ Found among posts from the second year of this blog, Part 1/72]

http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2006/04/16/fellowship-of-friends-a-cult-for-intellectuals/

Questions for discussion ~ choose what is applicable to you:

1) Upon reading this, does it sound like a ‘School’ you would like
to enroll in?

2) Have you had a similar experience with ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton?

3) Does this all sound familiar; do you know someone who had a
similar experience with ‘Teacher’ Robert Burton?

4) If you are a current ‘Student’, does this personal history come as
a surprise? How can we see this experience in a positive light?

*

101. Tatyana - November 10, 2009

Dear DC,
since you answer selectively and not very often, I don’t have high expectations that you will answer me this time. But still I will try to ask just to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that:

1. people posting here are lying intentionally to mask or avoid truth
2. they do it so because they lost interest in the Work (proof to which is that they are not looking for another teacher/school)
3. the truth is that RB is not abusing power or raping students, students are attracted to the power and status, and therefore there is no real evidence that FOF is not a school of awakening.

Is it what you are saying?

102. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 10, 2009

80. Daily Cardiac:

‘There is a saying from Shakespeare – Truth will out. In other words the truth will become known eventually. This happens even if some or most of the participants try to mask or avoid the truth.’

Here is something else for you to consider D.C. (as in: deception confirmed). A simple google on the internet on: ‘Truth will out Shakespeare’ reveals that nowhere, in all the writings by Shakespeare, did those exact words appear. (Although, there is the book ‘The Truth Will Out: Unmasking the Real Shakespeare’ that posits, once again, that someone else did the writings of Shakespeare. See the Amazon.com citation.) Nevertheless, your concept is worth considering.

For an organization, Fellowship of Friends, and a person, Robert Earl Burton, that for nearly forty years has practiced deception tricks and tactics of many kinds to hide the ‘foul deeds’ going on behind the scenes, as well as the not so hidden less foul ones, to claim an exclusive, or even non-exclusive, access to The Truth, is preposterous. When, eventually, some of that hanky-panky becomes disclosed, you, Daily Cardiac, want to claim that it is lies! In your own words, ‘In other words the truth will become known eventually.’ The truth will out indeed and it is happening right here.

Your view is understandable, D.C. The ship you travel on flows down the longest river in the world and it flows in the opposite direction of most other rivers on the planet (south to north rather than north to south): denial (The Nile).

Oh! what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott

103. Opus 111 - November 10, 2009

DC:

Something struck a nerve in what you wrote:

When are men most apt to lie? They are most apt to lie when there is something at stake; when something can be gained by lying or lost through the telling of the truth…

Now tell us:

Who gets the most money and sex in this organization (the engines of the world, according to G.), called FOF? Would that make this man, REB, the most apt to lie? I thought so.

104. veramente - November 10, 2009

99. nige – November 9, 2009
80 Daily Cardiac

Mark Twain might have said – “Daily Cardiac’s posts were written by Girard Haven or by someone calling himself Daily Cardiac”. The fact is, it is the same, slowed down, formatory, convoluted, not making sense, CRAP! Nigel.
————
my gut feelings indeed: Daily Caca!

(forgive me DC!)

105. WhaleRider - November 10, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

Thank you for posting. I do appreciate it.

106. James Mclemore - November 10, 2009

Daily Cardiac –

You know DC there is another experience that I sometimes have when I read your posts, and that I suppose I usually ignore and do not mention.
My heart sometimes actually aches a bit when I try to read between the lines of what you write; that writing which often feels so robotic and rehearsed. I sometimes try to get a feeling of who you might be behind that overly-organized and narrow dogma. I am not referring to your identity as regards your name. I am sure that would mean nothing to me and I could not care less. I mean who you really are somewhere inside. I picture you and maybe others similar to you locked away in just a tiny little compartment of what you might call your intellectual center trying to defend a ‘specialness’. It feels sometimes as if you are speaking from a lonely little tower. Nothing new can penetrate you there. You feel a safety in thinking you have Your ANSWER. It is an artificial safety DC, and if you were honest with yourself and really looked you could come to see that. It is no different than the safety and supposed peace of mind of the Jehovah Witnesses, and the born-again Christians, and the fundamentalists of all kinds. In your make-believe safety you no longer have to feel any of the uncertainty that makes Life truly Alive. It is sort of like you have artificially resolved ‘the control issue’, so you won’t have to confront the marvelous chaos of this planet. I wonder at times if you come here to the blog because you sense and feel the humanity that is sometimes quite apparent here. Perhaps it is as Panoritsa remarked, that you do “not receive enough attention in the cult”. It feels at times that you would like to join in the humor that often occurs here. My memory of the FoF is of a pretty much humorless place, with little laughter and no actual spontaneous wit; the only laughter being a sort of ‘canned’ variety coming from the crowd after the cute little clichés about c influence from Burton or some older follower. Here people jest and playfully kid with each other. I wonder if you sense that here there are people who seem to be intimately investigating their own lives and enjoying their families, and finding new things and trying to share them with others; people who embrace life and are making new friends and finding little ways to bring joy into their lives and have some fun. Sometimes I wonder if you are silently hoping that folks here might welcome you and say something like,

“Yes DC we have chosen to leave the FoF, but we think it is o.k. and just fine and just a simple matter of choice, and maybe even right for those who have chosen to stay, and that it is fine for you to freely attract new followers.”

But DC, I don’t think that is going to happen. It appears that too many of the people here have been there and have seen the underbelly of this thing, and know without a doubt (yes, seemingly without a doubt), that there is disease and sickness there, and that something is very, very wrong. Did you read the autobiographical sketch that GoldenVeil just reposted?

A little portion of my heart goes out to you whoever you are. It is never too late to pack that suitcase. (unless of course you are Girard, and from what I have read, it would then seem to be highly unlikely that you will be going anywhere soon)

107. harryhindsight - November 10, 2009

Daily Thumbtack,

“Aristotle said “Man is a political animal.” He could have also said that “Man is a lying animal.””

He could also have said, “You’re a smug jackass”.

“The truth does not fear falsehood, for it has no reason to fear it. It is more powerful, more dynamic, more relevant, more life-giving. But falsehood does indeed fear truth and it has every right to fear it. Truth will always defeat falsehood in the end.”

But more likely, had he read the above, could have said, “Holy Zeus, what an intolerably pretentious pinhead”.

Harry.

108. Daily Cardiac - November 10, 2009

Jomo – 83:

“I think your premise is much too broad. It’s a little bit clever, I think, and that’s why I am inclined to call it a “sophistry.” There’s something appealing about it: you lay out a premise, and then you reason from it; but I don’t think the premise you lay out is true in the general case.”

I think your response actually illustrates a good deal of what I was pointing out in #80.

As you pointed out the post was long; there were several currents and issues covered.

All that your reply consists of is the fact that you do not think much of what I wrote, which I already knew. If you read my post well you would have made the connection that you are merely writing catch phrases – “I would call it sophistry” – “It’s a little bit clever.”

These types of comments don’t shed additional light on anything; it’s a pretty transparent ploy to single out a line or two, put a label on it and that’s enough. You don’t actually have to refute anything with a greater logic or reasoning. You don’t have to address an issue head on and say “this is where you err,” or “here’s why this can’t be true…” and then go on to establish a solid refutation.

As I said, it’s a much used ploy on the blog but it’s right out there for any open minded person to see it for what it is.

It’s not my aim to sway you over to my side. My guess is that you’ve been harboring similar thoughts about the FoF for 25 or so years so I don’t expect you to change your position based on anything I write.

What I’m interested in is having someone actually address the issues brought up, not just say “I think it’s sophistry.” The post is indeed long but it doesn’t go far afield from a few core issues.

The comments I wrote are based on my own reasonings, deductions, observations, etc.; You could say my own truths. If you or anyone else can refute, expose, diminish them on the basis of a greater force of reasoning please do so.

As I said I’m not interested in recruiting anyone over; I’m interested in getting to the core issues, presenting both sides, and letting the end result resonate for those “who have ears to hear.”

We’re up to #103 and while several have chimed in on #80 no one has actually addressed an issue therein.

WYLTK pointed out that Shakespeare did not actually write the words “truth will out” but said nothing of substance related to my comments.

ton reminded us that at one time people thought the Earth was flat and now we know that isn’t true, and in some way I think he feels that fact negates my submission.

James M. commented there was not much to ponder in #80 and said my posts make him sleepy, which reminded me of a story Robert used to tell about when he gave his mother a copy of the ‘Psychology of Man’s Possible Evolution’ and she thanked him for the book but confessed that whenever she tried to read it it put her to sleep.

By the way Jomo, you were very persistent with a question for me a few weeks ago.I answered you and then you went silent. Was the answer sufficient?

109. Panoritsa - November 10, 2009

Divine Cosmos’ live blogging:

his statement: I can’t prove nothing won’t happen…

http://divinecosmos.com/index.php/start-here/latest-news/516-2012-startling-new-secrets-on-syfy-live-blogging-as-we-watch

110. Crouching Tiger - November 10, 2009

DC

“I know some have become affiliated with the Gurdjieff Foundation after FoF but that organization does not claim to be a school and it appears they do not hold as primary the idea of Being Present, or Self Remembering.”

Wrong. The GF simply puts no effort into advertising itself. But you’re right in that it doesn’t ask for huge amounts of money or blind obedience to an imaginary conscious being, and actually keeps in touch with Gurdjieff’s original teachings – particularly the notion that Man has to develop his own conscience as a way of combing out the true from the false.

You’re also right that it doesn’t hold the idea of being present as primary – the reality of being present yes, but the idea, no. It is blessedly free of all the ‘mental notes about myself’ and colour-coded cards [alchemy, types etc..] that the fellowship tries to substitute for self-remembering. There is not the endless talk about being present and reinforcing quotes from great men and women.

So there are far fewer pegs for the ‘spiritual persona’ to hang his coat on.

Unlike Burton and co, it also sees other ‘schools’ or ways of developing as legitimate (even the Fof at a certain point) and is not threatened by them – so neither the coming nor the going is a portal to damnation.

FYI, it also dialogues with real sufis rather than just sufi quotes found in old books!

111. James Mclemore - November 10, 2009

DC

You said, “As I said, it’s a much used ploy on the blog but it’s right out there for any open minded person to see it for what it is.”

What is ‘right out there for any open minded person to see’, is that even the idea of an ‘open mind’ has become completely foreign to you. You appear to be lost in a very strange and convoluted system of thinking that you are no longer even aware that you are inside of, and then you ask the people here to join you there and have a discussion. Good luck with that.

112. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 10, 2009

108. Daily Cardiac:

‘WYLTK pointed out that Shakespeare did not actually write the words “truth will out” but said nothing of substance related to my comments.’

Certainly, D.C. (read: Deception Confirmed), you chose to focus on the most shallow part of what I wrote in my 2 last posts regarding your #80. Shallow it was, #80, and shallow still it gets – the dialog, but not for lack of substantive subject matter on my end. Read, from #96:

‘And, BTW, you did not mention this possibility: that former members have stopped looking for a teacher and a real school because they FOUND what they were looking for – and it isn’t/wasn’t Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. And, if that were the case for just 10% of the 15,000 former members (which is a good possibility), that would mean that 1500 people, that are out, may have the opposite view of what truth may be compared to the 1500, or so, current members who are still seekers of truth. I suggest you entertain the possibility that your thinking may be faulty.’

– Have you tried to ‘entertain the possibility that your thinking may be faulty?’
– How about that idea that ‘former members have stopped looking for a teacher and a real school because they FOUND what they were looking for – and it isn’t/wasn’t Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.
– Deception Confirmed could you be deceiving yourself?

Bares Reposting:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
Upton Sinclair

113. Dr. Pangloss - November 10, 2009

108. Daily Cardiac

“James M. commented there was not much to ponder in #80 and said my posts make him sleepy, which reminded me of a story Robert used to tell about when he gave his mother a copy of the ‘Psychology of Man’s Possible Evolution’ and she thanked him for the book but confessed that whenever she tried to read it it put her to sleep.”

Ha Ha! Funny Burton story about his mother. Did you ever meet Mrs. Burton? I spent time with her on a few occasions, and the experiences should have clued me to run as fast as I could from FOF.
The fruit does not fall far from the tree in the Burton clan.

114. Yesri Baba - November 10, 2009

“You know DC there is another experience that I sometimes have when I read your posts…”

Yeah, me too, but it is a little different.

It is kinda like there is a gaggle of maggots in the center of my brain which begin wiggling and gobbling their way out until they get to the neural pathways controlling the jaw muscles causing it to fall slack.

Opus 111- Bingo!

115. GoldenVeil - November 10, 2009

*

Dear Daily Cardiac,

I’m afraid that James Mclemore is not alone. I, too, found myself scratching my head at this huge serving of sophistry you have presented us for the most part in post No. 80; and I also agree that it is “a little bit clever”.

“This is a key point in our discussion: The truth does not fear falsehood, for it has no reason to fear it. It is more powerful, more dynamic, more relevant, more life-giving. But falsehood does indeed fear truth and it has every right to fear it. Truth will always defeat falsehood in the end.”

And:

“One way to reach truth is to follow reason. The truth is many things but it is always reasonable. There can be no such thing as an unreasonable truth as truth determines reason. There can be harsh truths, even brutal truths but there cannot be an unreasonable truth. It’s like saying “that rainstorm is unreasonable.” So when people stray from reason they also stray from truth.”

I pondered this material, but I don’t see a lot there to discuss.
I’m sorry, but it seems to me like a kind of heavy-handed pedantic sermon.

Why not make good on the aim you stated to SilentPurr, “in the simplest of terms; I would say I, like you, am here to tell of my own experiences in the FoF.”?

I appreciate your participation and feel that it is important.
I do want to hear your voice. I would like to hear of your own experiences in the FOF. And I am also wondering if any of the questions I asked at the end of post No. 100 seem relevant to
you and worth answering? Question No. 2 is one that you could respond to and relate your own personal experience. Have you been having an ongoing intermittent sexual liaison with ‘The Teacher’; or if not, would you ever consider having one? Or, how about question No. 4: Is there a way you could interpret the former student’s stated experience (assuming it is the ‘Truth’) for us in a way that could be “life-giving”? Do you think that his apparent negative emotions regarding his 12 year experience have been transformed and made positive use of?

You said, “Have you considered that there are meanings and reasons for why things are the way they are that run counter to appearances, or to anyone’s pre-conceived ideas?” Do you think that these serial ongoing intermittent sexual liaisons ‘The Teacher’ has with the ‘Students’ have “…meanings and reasons for why things are the way they are that run counter to appearances…”

Since you are a “bringer of truth” that really feels you “should welcome the stories”; I would very much like to hear your ‘Truth’ regarding that former student’s story.

Kind regards and thanks,

Lisa

*

116. X-ray - November 10, 2009

80. Daily Cardiac – November 9, 2009

‘Contrary to the notions of several ex members, what is actually stated on the blog bears no real connection to the truth.’

Daily trash,
You either conscienceless fof worker, who paid to do what you are doing, or you truly are believing in your daily crap.
In any case, your efforts fruitless, because your teacher’s actions speaking for themselves.

117. Mikey - November 10, 2009

Hey, Mr. fofblogmoderator, will you please delete all my stupid posts? I’m trying to refine my image.
I think more people should join the FoF & find out for themselves.
What will they find out?
Well, for one thing, unless you’re willing to put out and make endless efforts, you’re just not worthy of any consideration.
And you may find out that being a member is a pretentious crock-o-crap; or maybe it will be the most wonderful & enlightening experience ever and all your imaginings will be realized.
How can you possibly lose?

118. WhaleRider - November 10, 2009

“Real school” is a myth which is the reason why “things are the way they are (and) run counter to appearances” as all myths do.

“Real school” is a metaphor for life, symbolic of the fact that humans are born in a far more immature state than any other animal on the planet. Other animals are up and walking or swimming off sometimes mere minutes after their birth; humans, on the other hand require a great deal of nuturing to stand on their own two feet. Some say it takes a village to raise a child. How true!

As the esteemed Joseph Campbell writes in effect, myths are the “secondary womb” in which humans emtionally and intellectually mature. It takes many, many years for humans to mature and become the authority figures in their own lives. Some never do completely mature, opting instead for a inferiority complex, the modus operandi of dedicated a cult follower. Myths do have value, up to a point.

The truth simply is there is no “real school” out there other than what you learn from the choices you make in your own life.

Some intellectually and emotionally immature individuals choose to project their authority onto others…and there are plenty of people with guru complexes lined up to fill that need and provide the womb of spiritual myths to hopefully to help them mature, take ownership of their archtypes, adapt to life…and stand on their own two feet, or not.

119. Jomo Piñata - November 10, 2009

Lacuna Piñata/108

You wrote,

All that your reply consists of is the fact that you do not think much of what I wrote, which I already knew. If you read my post well you would have made the connection that you are merely writing catch phrases – “I would call it sophistry” – “It’s a little bit clever.”

These types of comments don’t shed additional light on anything; it’s a pretty transparent ploy to single out a line or two, put a label on it and that’s enough. You don’t actually have to refute anything with a greater logic or reasoning. You don’t have to address an issue head on and say “this is where you err,” or “here’s why this can’t be true…” and then go on to establish a solid refutation.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism

—BEGIN QUOTED TEXT—-

“A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience’s prejudices and emotions rather than logic, i.e. raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion. The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is, e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques. An Ad Hominem argument is an example of Sophistry.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people. Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

Sophistry means making heavy use of sophisms. The word can be applied to a particular text or speech riddled with sophisms.”

—END QUOTED TEXT—

Here’s what I’m getting from 108: You don’t think blog readers are paying close attention to what you write, you think they’re dismissive of what you say and you feel that no one really engages with you to either refute, or fail to refute, what you are saying. Am I reading you right?

But what puzzles me is that every time you come here, I engage with you individually. I actually talk with you. I actually read what you write and I write back to you. Even when I insult you I try to do it in a playful way that is not meant to offend you, but to make you think. Like when I call you Lacuna Piñata, my brother, and talk about who you used to be when you were a child. I can’t say I know whether it’s made you think, but I’ve tried. Did you think Lacuna Piñata is just a silly meaningless name, or do you think it might have an “inner meaning”?

And when I write to you, specifically, paying attention to what you say, you still don’t feel heard–at least, as I read the tone of your posts. That may be. Maybe I am not hearing you. But it’s equally clear to me that you are not hearing me. Remember our little back-and-forth about “self-sealing doctrines” versus “self-serving statements?” That’s an example. You took these two distinct ideas as interchangeable and were unable to take in my explanations that they are not the same thing at all. And I told you your thinking is fuzzy. Remember that? (I still think your thinking is fuzzy.)

And when I asked you, “exegesis or eisegesis,” I had to ask four or five times. But even though you finally addressed my question, you just gave a coy response about how I ought to be able to guess your position. This didn’t seem like someone interested in dialogue to me.

But I guess people are complicated, and sometimes you really do want dialogue and really do want to feel that others hear you. I know it smarts when you feel your main points are ignored. The thing is, Lacuna Piñata, you can’t always get what you want. I’m not interested in picking apart the whole chain of sophistries. I’d rather zone in on two or three links in that chain and indicate the fallacies they contain. That’s just my thing. A chain of inferences is as strong as its weakest link. Your links have some problems.

120. Daily Cardiac - November 10, 2009

Tatyana – 101:

“Dear DC,
since you answer selectively and not very often, I don’t have high expectations that you will answer me this time. But still I will try to ask just to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that:

1. people posting here are lying intentionally to mask or avoid truth
2. they do it so because they lost interest in the Work (proof to which is that they are not looking for another teacher/school)
3. the truth is that RB is not abusing power or raping students, students are attracted to the power and status, and therefore there is no real evidence that FOF is not a school of awakening.

Is it what you are saying?”

Tatyana, to answer your questions:

“1. people posting here are lying intentionally to mask or avoid truth.”

A pronounced bias against something or someone, especially when it seems justifiable, prevents people from seeing the entire spectrum of information. Some of that information may, and often does, contain pertinent truths that runs counter to their beliefs. Extreme bias prevents the entire truth from being seen all the more. It’s not lying intentionally; the lie is told to one’s self and one believes it and harbors it as truth because one wants it to be true.

“2. they do it so because they lost interest in the Work (proof to which is that they are not looking for another teacher/school)”

This can be understood in a general way; if I really want something and I go off looking for it and let’s say I go in the wrong direction and find out that if I really want it I need to make an even greater effort to go back to where I started and start anew again. If that person gives up the search it would indicate that perhaps the yearning wasn’t great enough to overcome the denying force. Then another might continue on the search because he or she has to have what they are looking for and so they continue on even with the added obstacles to overcome. That shows a greater valuation, greater need, for whatever was being sought.

People here say the FoF is a destructive cult that they found and joined mistakenly while looking for a conscious school. Yet when they discover it’s not a school they don’t continue looking for a real school; the yearning seems to dissipate and that seems odd to me.

I stopped looking and stayed because I see the FoF as a real school, so I found what I was looking for but if I had seen it as a fraud I think I would have kept looking for a real school. I think it’s reasonable to assume others would also keep looking.

If people stop looking it means one of two things as I see it; either their need for a school wasn’t that great to begin with, (maybe the effort to remain was more than they anticipated) or deep down they understand the FoF is a school but they still can’t connect with it or value it.

If you have an important appointment in an unfamiliar city and you get on the wrong bus, do you forget about the appointment and maybe go on a picnic because the wrong bus let you off next to a park, or do try to find the right bus to take you where you initially wanted to go? I think doing the latter is a reasonable conclusion.

“3. the truth is that RB is not abusing power or raping students, students are attracted to the power and status, and therefore there is no real evidence that FOF is not a school of awakening.”

The way you worded it is a little like condensing two issues into one, but basically what you relay back is true. The truth is that Robert is not abusing anyone and obviously not raping anyone, either literally or figuratively.

The key element is free will. When anyone willingly agrees to something it is not abuse, it is consent. Even though the person is conflicted on the inside it is still consent because the ultimate decision is theirs to make. Now people consent to things all the time and later they see it was not what they really wanted or the result was not desirable and in that case there was a lesson to be learned and one learns it and moves on.

When one blames others for one’s own decisions it is a sure sign the lesson was not learned and then the lesson will be repeated until it is learned. Of course the lessons we are talking about are equally of a spiritual nature so the lessons may very well be carried over from one existence to the next.

I read an article recently about the British actor Ralph Fiennes. He was on an airplane and a female flight attendant ended up having sex with him in the plane’s lavatory. It was discovered and reported (maybe she left the drink trolley in the center isle) and she was immediately fired upon landing on the ground. She was interviewed later and asked if she regretted losing her job because she had sex with Ralph. She answered that she could always get another job but you don’t get too many opportunities to have sex with a movie star. Which at least is an accurate assessment of the odds involved.

Now imagine if one of the other passengers on the plane would have pressed the little button calling this “hostess” to his seat and proposed to her that they have sex in the lavatory since he found her to be extremely “hot.” By all definitions that would have been grounds for a sexual harassment charge, maybe a ban from the airline if the same lady reported it. The only difference in both scenarios is consent due to power or status (in this case the power of celebrity.)

And finally, Robert having sex with students is not evidence that the FoF is not a real school. The FoF not producing and promoting Presence would be proof it’s not a real school.

121. brucelevy - November 10, 2009

As the blog continually engages in conversation with this fucking moron I’m beginning to believe the blog and DC deserve each other.

122. brucelevy - November 10, 2009

Instead, I’m going to have some real fun and find someone to give me a root canal without anesthetic

123. Jomo Piñata - November 10, 2009

Bruce, never let it be said that you suffer fools gladly!

124. Mikey - November 10, 2009

Blog not feel good – sluggish & constipated.

125. Yesri Baba - November 10, 2009

117 Mikey

“Hey, Mr. fofblogmoderator, will you please delete all my stupid posts? I’m trying to refine my image.”

I’m sure the moderator is a very busy man and doesn’t have the hours and hours of free time to complete this daunting task.

Do what I do. Just write whatever comes into your mind. If it seems stupid at first just run it around and around and it becomes smarter and smarter like magic! Before you know it- WA LA- nothing but smart posts highly esteemed and admired by all.

Take this one for instance, brilliant! Brilliant i tells ya!

126. Yesri Baba - November 10, 2009

“Now imagine if one of the other passengers on the plane would have pressed the little button calling this “hostess” to his seat and proposed to her that they have sex in the lavatory since he found her to be extremely “hot.” By all definitions that would have been grounds for a sexual harassment charge, maybe a ban from the airline if the same lady reported it.”

You maybe, but if it was me she’d drop that oaf Fiennes like a severed head- we probably wouldn’t even make it to the can.

(just showing Mikey how it’s done- brilliant, brilliant i tells ya)

127. Dr. Pangloss - November 10, 2009

120 Daily Cardiac

“If you have an important appointment in an unfamiliar city and you get on the wrong bus, do you forget about the appointment and maybe go on a picnic because the wrong bus let you off next to a park, or do try to find the right bus to take you where you initially wanted to go? I think doing the latter is a reasonable conclusion.”

Only an idiot or a cheap bastard would take a bus to an important appointment in an unfamiliar city. Next, if you get lost, you call someone who knows their way around town, like a taxi, you don’t look for another bus. What kind of doofus would crash a picnic??

Your little parables are not very well constucted and are getting sillier with each post. Are you implying with your Ralph Fiennes story, that Burton’s boys are merely star-fuckers???

128. Yesri Baba - November 10, 2009

129. X-ray - November 11, 2009

120. Daily Cardiac – November 10, 2009

Daily Crap,
You are one sick motherfucker, who deserves the worse, like your pathetic Robert Burton.
I wish you both to share a jail cell.

130. Daily Cardiac - November 11, 2009

James Mclemore – 97:

First I would like to apologize to you for the dig I got in about Robert’s mother and the work book. You took a few shots at me in 97 and my first response was to send one back, but sarcasm is not ever the answer as far as I’m concerned. I’m not here to insult or argue or put anyone down.

My aim is to single out the issues that are most talked about on the blog, relate my understandings pertaining to other ways to think about them or interpret them, and then let the FoF critics respond to my comments or not respond. That is all.

So it’s very curious to me that you found not much to ponder in #80 because #80 is only about the issues dear to your heart. I would think that hearing new possible meanings for why things are the way they are in the FoF, the very issues you hold important, would be of interest to you. And responding to them would also interest you.

But that doesn’t appear to be the case. I can’t find one issue I pointed out that you addressed in your #97.

We already mentioned you said there is not much to ponder in #80. You also said this –

“You actually have no idea what people who post here are doing or have done.”

That’s really not the case. I think people talk about what is the most important to them and if anyone found a real school other than the FoF we would know about it.

What is talked about most is not how people are continuing on the spiritual path. The vast majority of the comments are telling what a bad person RB is over and over ad nauseum. So if people can only dwell on that, for me it’s a give away that there is not much else going on in their lives. If there were positive things going on in their lives people would be expressing it; after all is not that part of the solution, what someone finds that works?

Is the only thing that interests critics here saying the same thing every ex member has heard before and agrees on over and over, essentially nothing more than preaching to the choir?

You also said this –

“It may in part be that it is simply that many here have discovered that ‘truth’ does not exclusively inhabit any specific external anything, neither person nor place nor group of any kind, nor even any particular body of ideas. I am actually surprised that it seems you have not discovered this yet.”

This reminds me of ton’s worldview regarding objective vs subjective a page or so back. I would say truth exists externally from us as well as in us. It exists in some circles and is absent from other circles and in some circles it exists conditionally.

If it is in us it is in us because we have encountered it outside of us first and it imposed its will on us to follow it, embody it.

So you decided not to address the issues of #80 but go into what you thought I meant about this or that but I have addressed at least one of your comments head on.

Do you care to comment on the issue of whether RB has really abused anyone or not, based on reason, right interpretation of laws both man made or higher? And I’m not talking about repeating the litany of stories here, which I’ve pointed out does not amount to proof or evidence of anything, or maybe you would like to ponder the issue of why mere words don’t equate to truth, which was also touched on in detail in #80?

131. Tatyana - November 11, 2009

DC
“And finally, Robert having sex with students is not evidence that the FoF is not a real school. The FoF not producing and promoting Presence would be proof it’s not a real school.”

If I use your logic, then nothing can be evidence that FOF is not a real school as long as it is producing and promoting Presence. Right? From this point not only Robert having sex with students is not evidence, but even if he was raping them and abusing power wouldn’t be evidence? As long as FOF producing and promoting Presence. Not even a murder would be evidence! Is this what you believe?

132. harryhindsight - November 11, 2009

Daily Loveshack,

“I read an article recently about the British actor Ralph Fiennes. He was on an airplane and a female flight attendant ended up having sex with him in the plane’s lavatory.”

There used to be Fiennes for having sex D.C.

“It was discovered and reported (maybe she left the drink trolley in the center isle) and she was immediately fired upon landing on the ground.”

Yep, should have taken the drinks trolley into the lavatory, obviously hadn’t done this very often. If you’re ever having sex with Robert, make sure you take the drinks trolley into the lavatory with you.

“She was interviewed later and asked if she regretted losing her job because she had sex with Ralph. She answered that she could always get another job but you don’t get too many opportunities to have sex with a movie star. Which at least is an accurate assessment of the odds involved.”

Ah well, here’s where your analogy breaks down. Apparently, there are endless opportunities to have sex with Robert in or out of the lavatory and apparently you don’t even have to pee and poop IN the lavvy itself which I bet is one up on old Ralph! You may even get to share the experience with a large team of ahem, “hostesses” though where all those drinks trolleys go is anyone’s guess.

Love,
Harry.

133. X-ray - November 11, 2009

‘My aim is to single out the issues that are most talked about on the blog, relate my understandings pertaining to other ways to think about them or interpret them, and then let the FoF critics respond to my comments or not respond. That is all.’

Daily Crap,
Your aim is to mislead and to distract.
You are a Burton’s whore, who getting paid for doing what you do.

134. James Mclemore - November 11, 2009

Well Bruce may be chuckling and rightfully saying “You gotta’ be fucking kidding”, but I am going to respond one more time, although I think from now on I may opt for the root canal also.

I will repeat this one more time for you DC…….

“You actually have NO idea what people who post here are doing or have done.”

Everybody here knows that, except evidently for you.

***
As far as “preaching to the choir” goes, there are many here who donate their time and ideas in the hope that we may both discourage new people from joining your cult, and hope that if there are some ‘fence sitters’ that they may hear something that will help them to extricate themselves.

You said (in relation to ‘truth’),
“If it is in us it is in us because we have encountered it outside of us first and it imposed its will on us to follow it, embody it.”

IMHO you are quite mistaken and I think it is partly this idea mixed in with some other mush from ‘The world according to Burton”, that keeps you in the Yezidi Circle that you find yourself in. You may find some mirrors outside of yourself, but nothing that ‘imposes its will’ on you. That just sounds childish and like magical thinking to me.

From your last paragraph, you ask…..

“Do you care to comment on the issue of whether RB has really abused anyone or not”

And then you say, (referring to people’s own personal experiences), that it….

“does not amount to proof or evidence of anything”

That has got to be one of the stupidest and most ignorant and most shameful things you have said yet.

It is like I said before DC – This blog is a lot simpler than you wish it was.

DC – I am done

Bruce – I think you are correct.

135. X-ray - November 11, 2009

I don’t know how you guys make it thru DC’s posts.
I can’t make it thru one paragraph, it stinks like shit.

136. 411 - November 11, 2009

Burton sits in a room in front of 150 people every Sunday and tells them that angels are hovering in the room. It seems that even though no one in the room has any apparatus that can verify the presence of angels they just all tacitly agree. I think I have a problem with that.

The Fellowship of Friends is actively looking for fresh magnetic centers. Maybe they will find a few in eastern europe, where the idea of living with a depraved millionaire actually sounds exciting. There are a lot of people out there who have no problem lining up for the kool-aid. All we can do is what we do. Voice our opinions without censorship about our experience in the FOF.

Talking to DC is an absolute waste of time and space on the blog.

137. WhaleRider - November 11, 2009

Daily Cardiac:
“Do you care to comment on the issue of whether ROBERT E. BURTON has really abused anyone or not, based on reason, right interpretation of laws both man made or higher?”

Here we go round again…Bruce is right, this is like pulling teeth.

BURTON PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY ABUSED TROY.

Really.

It is also unlawful for an adult to engage in sexual relations with a minor under the age of consent…even in a airplane lavatory while flying in international airspace.

Now I am starting to get sick to my stomach.

Cardiac, as I have said before, I find the depth of your spiritual ignorance and lack of conscience is indeed revolting on many levels, which is why it is difficult to reason with you without satire.

You don’t fool me, don’t fool yourself. Your motivations are not as altruistic as you’d like others to believe. Shame on you!

Whether you care to admit it or not, you have many times sought to “normalize” sex with a guru undoubtedly because you have a vested interest in keeping the cult going in order to maintain your position of power or livelihood.

Your inner motivations are not a mystery; make no mistake, this isn’t some fantasy, the practice of establishing motive is a science in criminology.

It is not hard to see that you thrive on your special cult status and perpetrating the myth of the real school.

It is not time for you to leave, grasshopper; only when you fully mature will you grow wings.

138. Dr. Pangloss - November 11, 2009

130. Daily Cardiac

Your robot logic is coming unglued. You are like HAL in 2001 a Space Odyssey.

Open the pod bay doors Dave…. Dave…..
Daisy, Daisy……

Goodbye robot.

139. Panoritsa - November 11, 2009

I do not read DC’s posts. However, I read them about 1,5 years ago and his completely messed up mind propelled me to take the decision and leave the cult.

His way of thinking really helps to see how screwed up you can become in the Fellowship of Friends (check Pathway to Presence too, because they are re-doing their image…).

I think it is good he talks here. But he is not well. And he needs help. And he will not get as long as he stays in the cult.

Have a nice day! :-0

140. Daily Cardiac - November 11, 2009

Dr. Pangloss – 127:

“Only an idiot or a cheap bastard would take a bus to an important appointment in an unfamiliar city. Next, if you get lost, you call someone who knows their way around town, like a taxi, you don’t look for another bus. What kind of doofus would crash a picnic??”

I’m a romantic at heart.

141. GoldenVeil - November 11, 2009

*

From Merriam-Wester’s Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: ro·man·tic
Pronunciation: rō-ˈman-tik
Function: adjective
Etymology: French romantique, from obsolete romant romance, from Old French romanz
Date: 1650

1 : consisting of or resembling a romance

2 : having no basis in fact : imaginary

3 : impractical in conception or plan : visionary

4 a : marked by the imaginative or emotional appeal of what is heroic, adventurous, remote, mysterious, or idealized b often capitalized : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of romanticism c : of or relating to music of the 19th century characterized by an emphasis on subjective emotional qualities and freedom of form; also : of or relating to a composer of this music

5 a : having an inclination for romance : responsive to the appeal of what is idealized, heroic, or adventurous b : marked by expressions of love or affection c : conducive to or suitable for lovemaking

6 : of, relating to, or constituting the part of the hero especially in a light comedy

Dear Daily Cardiac,

Re: Romantic

See especially definition Nos. 2 and 6.

2. Because so much of your life must be imaginary, living as
you do in the Fellowship of Friends community and as an
active proponent of its bizarre propaganda.

6. Your last post…except this comedy (if it is one) truly has a
dark side. Be a hero and take loved ones with you and leave.

The point of the repeated postings (as you say) of these personal
experiences with ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton is to publicize his dark side, and alert current and potential ‘Students’.

Who would want to follow a teacher who used their innate charismatic power like this?

Who would want to stay in a ‘School’ with a ‘Teacher’ like this at the helm?

You do. I guess you are comfortable, somehow. Maybe you are from a parochial environment, a small town, perhaps a rural setting; the fact that the Fellowship of Friends provides a constant influx of exciting new ‘Friends’ from other countries in an enclosed rural stronghold might have a great deal of attraction to you. You think that you need these others to keep you from sleep. To Be Present.

It is a all a lie, though, you know. If anything, the Fellowship of Friends only perpetuates Sleep, not Presence. How else can you bear living with such contradictions and hidden darkness? What about all the money gathered and spent on a few? It is worse than
fascism. It is in the name of Truth, Beauty, and Love. What a lie!

I could not stay associated knowing that ‘The Teacher’ habitually abuses his innate charismatic power by sexually seducing his followers. He is emotionally confusing and psychologically damaging these people. That ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton persists in this is truly ugly and unromantic.

True Romance:

You have the potential to become a hero. Leave and take others!

*

142. Mikey - November 11, 2009

Come on Bruce, et. al., have a heart.
After all, DC has nowhere to go that he is not openly or secretly reviled. At least some of us are honest.
He is a fine example of what the FoF stands for.

143. Mikey - November 11, 2009

And don’t forget, dear friends, that the staggering level of idiocy that DC has achieved can only be accomplished after decades of mind-numbing & emotionally castrating toadying.

144. Mikey - November 11, 2009

I think the word you’re looking for is: voila! (old fr. voir: to see + la: by the way). You’re right, Yesri, you should look into starting your own school of transforming stupidity into smart(ass) for fun & profit.

145. rock that boat - November 11, 2009

DC-ism
Banal FOF witch hunt of fueled fears, accusations of disloyalty and unsubstantiated accusations to justify and protect it’s Cult leader
Robert Burton

Don’t fall in this trap of wasting energy on this guy/woman

146. Tatyana - November 11, 2009

I am sorry if I bother someone here by engaging in a dialog with DC, but I find it helpful. Besides I managed to interest my FOFers friends in talking about blog. One of my friends even asked me to e-mail him DC’s post (he does not read the blog of coarse).

The hit of the day was “Promoting and Prolonging Presence is a proof of a real school.” I think this is an important hook that keeps people in. I don’t have time right now to elaborate on this. Just want to mention quickly that even if you take out all the people who talk crap about RB but still in FOF, who stuck there because of the financial dependancy or a communal life, visas etc, if you only leave those who are in because of Promoting and Prolonging Presence you will probably have about 100 people and half of them (at least) will be mad.

But I still think that “Promoting and Prolonging Presence” is an interesting subject. Will be back on that one. Cheers!

147. X-ray - November 11, 2009

136. 411 – November 11, 2009

‘Talking to DC is an absolute waste of time and space on the blog.’

I agree with that.
Talking to DC reasonably is useless because he lack of just about every thing to have this type of conversation with him.
He proved his idiocy over and over again.. He is a true reflection of the FoF, and to have him here is good, so people can listen to him and make their own conclusions.

148. Yesri Baba - November 11, 2009

144 Mikey

“You’re right, Yesri, you should look into starting your own school of transforming stupidity into smart(ass) for fun & profit.”

Naw, you know it’s all fer fun Mikey.

ps. thanx for the french lesson

149. Yesri Baba - November 11, 2009

“But I still think that “Promoting and Prolonging Presence” is an interesting subject. Will be back on that one. Cheers!”

Get out of bed, go through your day, go back to bed. Voila! (thanx again Mikey!) promoted and prolonged.

150. GoldenVeil - November 11, 2009

*

Re: 146 Tatyana

Thank you for your post. I wanted to follow up on:

“Besides I managed to interest my FOFers friends in talking about blog. One of my friends even asked me to e-mail him DC’s post
(he does not read the blog of coarse).”

“…does not read the blog, of course.”

Of course? How can they talk about the blog if they don’t read it?

Have you tried to encourage your FOF friends to read the blog for themselves? I think that many of these posts are written primarily with the ‘Students’ and prospective ‘Students’ in mind. If they are
told verbally by you about what someone else has written the message may be distilled in a way that the writer did not intend.
In informal conversation you must undoubtedly edit or gloss a bit…

I would tell them that if they really want to know what is said they should read it for themselves. By just giving them a verbal sketch;
or even reading the ex ‘Students’ posts aloud to them verbatim,
the fact that you forward a copy of D.C’s post by email is a more concrete method of transmission and they end up receiving a very one-sided impression of the complete ongoing discussion.

By forwarding only the post by D.C. you are giving your ‘Student’ friend only one point of view in black and white. It makes it much easier for them to dismiss all else as insignificant since they will likely consider it all as mere hearsay.

* * *
I would also like more clarification on:

“… if you only leave those who are in because of Promoting and Prolonging Presence you will probably have about 100 people and half of them (at least) will be mad.”

I wonder if you mean mad as in insane, like the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland, or do you mean angry mad as in “I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore!” ?

I appreciate your presence here and I hope you do not mind my expressing these thoughts. Thank you for posting.

*

151. Daily Cardiac - November 11, 2009

Jomo Piñata, my sister – 119

“But what puzzles me is that every time you come here, I engage with you individually. I actually talk with you. I actually read what you write and I write back to you. Even when I insult you I try to do it in a playful way that is not meant to offend you, but to make you think. Like when I call you Lacuna Piñata, my brother, and talk about who you used to be when you were a child. I can’t say I know whether it’s made you think, but I’ve tried. Did you think Lacuna Piñata is just a silly meaningless name, or do you think it might have an “inner meaning”?”

Here is my favorite – “The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is, e.g., accusing another of sophistry for using persuasion techniques.”

I actually don’t mind our little bouts of repartee, even though you always take the repar for yourself and leave me only with the tee.

But there are several obstacles in the way of our “meeting of the minds.”

For one thing, you being intellectually centered, you like to quote main stream psychology and it’s theories, studies, block buster books, etc. and I find it an extremely limiting genre, although it has its place for the masses.

The chief problem with main stream psychology is that the psychologists who preside over it don’t know that they are as flawed and out of balance as those they study (i. e. asleep.)

Take a term constantly bandied about on the blog –
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Everyone has a this disorder to some degree. Those with a chief feature of vanity have a little more than others.

But when someone has enough of it to show up on some official radar then someone else puts a label on it like an entomologist does to some ancient strain of beetle he’s never seen before.

Every one is paranoid, including the researchers, but those with the feature of fear are more so and then a few cross the line and attract attention and they get a label.

Everyone is manic depressive to a degree, some more so than others.
Everyone is schizophrenic.

So when you paste those long excerpts from the medical journals I admit I sort of tune out. Here’s a thought; This discussion is supposed to be about spiritual matters; the FoF presents itself as a school of awakening and ex members say it is a sham organization, a fraud.

Why don’t you include excerpts from sacred texts that would support your position and show the FoF as such. Why consult with medical journals or self help books, why not go straight to the source of spirituality.

Show me something pertinent from the Buddha that disavows the actions of RB or the FoF, or from Jesus about the ramifications of teacher / student sex. There are a lot of sources you could site. I’ll settle for “Conversations With Eckermann” if the Fourth Way books are too close for comfort.

As far as what you think of as my pet peeve of not having my issues addressed, it doesn’t really bother me at all. I just like to go on record that it’s happening but it’s fine with me, maybe even more suitable for my schedule as I don’t have a lot of time to donate to the blog..

I feel I’m in a win win situation. If people continue to ignore the issues I bring up, (ironically I’m just addressing my side of the very same ones they themselves continually harp on) then any open minded and reasonable person following along will see what’s really going on.

And if they do by any chance actually address these issues I personally don’t think anyone can refute them because they do carry some measure of truth. At best they could only reasonably say that my truth and their truth must rightfully cohabitate in the realm of “all that is possible.”

But for your information here’s what usually happens when I write in an entry. There are always the few snipers who take a line or two and change it around to make a little joke of it.

Then there are the few who get a little more involved and start off with the indignant card and use my words as a springboard to launch into the familiar refrain of “do you know your teacher is a blah blah has done this or that, harmed countless, etc. and in the end nary an issue is addressed, but they have succeeded in saying the same thing they have said repeatedly. But to them the sound and fury carries the day. This is also a very apparent ploy to avoid actually taking the bull by the horns and “showing” the fallacy of my words if there be any.

Don’t take it personal but I’m not actually writing for you or to you per se or any of the ones that answer from a place of negativity.(not that you do) I’m writing for the unknown ones following along, possibly those thinking of joining.

As far as the ones in with one foot out the door; if my words help them make up their minds to leave that’s also alright with me. The school has never been about numbers, but it has always been about commitment.

Another ploy recently seen is the one that says “this is too convoluted to even reply to, I’d rather get a root canal.” Why is that? Again I’ll say I’m only discussing, giving my viewpoint on the issues ex members promote on a daily basis. It’s odd it would not be of interest for anyone to answer. Obviously it’s a evasive ploy and one of the more transparent ones. “Your gibberish is so much below me that I won’t even consider answering it.”

All I’m saying is just show me through force of reason why my premises, as you call them, are not valid? Why do people stop looking for a school because they found a cult? Why do people stop believing in a teacher /student relationship where the student gives up their small will to a teacher who is more advanced, because they had a bad experience with a charlatan?

Why do people continually talk about abuse of power when all evidence points to consent and there is no evidence that even minimally suggests coercion? False accusations are also a form fraud.

Why did it take some people 30 years to figure out the FoF was /is a cult? or 15 years, or 7 years? Why did some who post here actually not ever leave, but had to be asked to leave? Why do people out for 25 or more years, with no contact talk about the FoF in the same terms as if they’re right in the middle of everything and know everything going on?

I’m all for reason. “The FoF wasn’t for me so I did what I could do, I resigned. I know others say they profit spiritually from it and I’m not in the position to judge, but it wasn’t for me.”

That would be reasonable and you would come off to the world as more reasonable. I like what Ames said once – “If Burton is conscious then I don’t want to be.” I like that, it’s honest and reasonable.

152. WhaleRider - November 11, 2009

Daily Cardiac:
“Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Everyone has a this disorder to some degree. Every one is paranoid, including the researchers, but those with the feature of fear are more so and then a few cross the line and attract attention and they get a label.

Everyone is manic depressive to a degree, some more so than others.
Everyone is schizophrenic.”

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about! There is a HUGE difference between character traits and a full blown psychiatric disorder. If you spent some time out of your bubble, you’d know better than to make such a foolish statement.

“Real school” is a myth that mature people grow out of.

You, my friend, are a child.

You ask for reason while living in a mythic world of fantasy.

153. Yesri Baba - November 11, 2009

“Why do people continually talk about abuse of power when all evidence points to consent and there is no evidence that even minimally suggests coercion? False accusations are also a form fraud.”

Fuck you you fucking motherfucking fuck.

154. X-ray - November 11, 2009

153. Yesri Baba – November 11, 2009

Yes, Daily Crap is a real idiot, but if he the best they have, imagine how stupid others?

155. Opus 111 - November 11, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

“Why do people continually talk about abuse of power when all evidence points to consent and there is no evidence that even minimally suggests coercion? False accusations are also a form fraud.”

Do you realize that the argument that, absent physical overpowering, there is no such a thing as abuse of power in a sexual encounter, does in essence condone sexual relationship between an adult and a minor, a parent and their child, a physician and their patient? Most incestuous relationships involve no physical harm or even physical overpowering. Is this your (narrow) understanding of power and its abuse?

I would hope you would understand the reasons that societies at large have evolved to condemn sexual relationships between an adult and a child. And no, it is not the mismatch in physical power. But this sick man you call your beloved teacher has found a loophole in common law and enjoyed a free ride for nearly 40 years, all this in the name of “promoting presence”.

Speaking again of “spiritual matters”, do you think it is acceptable that a self-professed teacher pursue incessantly young heterosexual men for his own sexual gratification, including group sex, defecation, urination and the like?

Do you consider such activities a perfectly acceptable portion of the curriculum of a “conscious school”? Why then are they not taught at Sunday meetings, with pictorials as instructional material? The opportunity for accelerated evolution is clearly there, for everybody!

Why are people who bring up the subject of REB sexual activities asked to leave? Why do not deny that many young men were seriously damaged by their “encounter” with your teacher, and that it had to do with their having unwanted sexual relationship with a man they trusted with their most precious aspirations? Why do you call these men liars? Name one person who was set free because they had become a “realized”, “conscious being” after nightly fornication with their teacher.

I realize that what I just wrote has been written here countless times, but in the interest of potential new readership, and to let off steam, I felt like writing it again.

156. Tatyana - November 11, 2009

150. GoldenVeil Of course? How can they talk about the blog if they don’t read it?

Most of the FOFers do not read blog. For different reasons. The ones I heard are:
– it is too negative
– just many I’s
– I don’t want to waste time
– they are a bunch of liars
– don’t believe the I’s
– it is poisonous and can take me out of school
– I don’t want to go there

Talking about FOF or blog with those in is not easy. At least they are talking with me still! Some of them…

But I will try to talk to them about Promoting and Prolonging Presence, see how far we can go in our conversation.

What I am seeing is that DC is an idealist and believes there is a school when in fact there is a bunch of people in the same organization for different reasons. One can even say that every one is in each own school. And if you take out those who are there because of of financial or immigration need, or fear of Robert himself, or social club, or “gold alchemy” celebrity club, those who want to build a community, those who smoke pot, those who are afraid of the end of the world, those who hate Robert but love their friends (or lovers), those who are afraid of Life people etc., etc., you might find a handful of people who are there because of Presence. And only a few of them (IMHO) are sane. And only a few of those joined because they were looking for the organization that promotes and prolongs Presence. If any one at all (except DC).

157. X-ray - November 12, 2009

155. Opus 111 – November 11, 2009

Thank you Opus for your reasonable post, but I’m afraid you will be disappointed by Daily Crap’s response, if there will be any.

158. James Mclemore - November 12, 2009

DC said,

“This discussion is supposed to be about spiritual matters;”

He is mistaken. Actually he knows better, and he only wishes it was about that. He wishes it was about almost anything other than what it really is, and then tries his best to develop conversation about other topics. This blog is about the Fellowship of Friends that presents itself as spirituality but is actually a cult full of deception and fraud. This blog is about the abuse of power.

This blog is a lot simpler than he wishes it was.

159. GoldenVeil - November 12, 2009

*

Supposedly sexually liberated female students: Do you understand that when RB [‘The Teacher Robert Burton’] seduces your boyfriend or your husband (even on your honeymoon that you planned to spend together at Apollo / Isis) from you – you who would purport to have ‘the heart and stomach of a king’ – with mere material bribes and empty promises of heaven, that aside from the grand ego trip he enjoys for himself – and the emasculation of your supposedly ’strong’ ‘significant other’, that RB does not LOVE you in any way whatsoever, but is in fact displaying the most profound disrespect and disregard for you and your existence? How’s that
for women’s liberation? But no, you may think it’s all right. You may bask in it. Or you may push it below where it can’t hurt you. One lovely student I knew, when I had got up enough courage to ask her how she felt about what her husband was doing (he was
a long-time traveller with RB), abruptly replied: “We don’t discuss it”. A couple of years later she had a serious nervous breakdown. That’s what keeps it rolling along. Either do not discuss it or convince oneself that it is acceptable, or–much better–that it is noble, beautiful, ‘conscious love’. If that interpretation is what really pleases you, go ahead. But obviously, I don’t recommend it. Nor do I tolerate it.

The last paragraph of a post by Reality Check, Part 1/41

http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2007/03/01/the-fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-2/

*

160. Josiane - November 12, 2009

DC,

Somewhere up there you talked about people on the blog not searching for a “real school” any more and/or not talking about awakening.

I don’t expect you to agree with the following, but there may be as much spirituality, if not more, in a bowl of vegetable soup, a bunch of flowers, a child’s smile or a newly rescued dog as there may be in any issue of the “Thoughts from the Teacher”. If one has come to this understanding, why look further. LIFE is the teacher. Life IS the teacher.

161. WhaleRider - November 12, 2009

Burton’s preferred method of Promoting and Prolonging Presence in his followers: Viagra.

162. Daily Cardiac - November 12, 2009

GoldenVeil – 141:

I guess at heart I’m just a person having no basis in fact.

GV :”It is a all a lie, though, you know. If anything, the Fellowship of Friends only perpetuates Sleep, not Presence. How else can you bear living with such contradictions and hidden darkness? What about all the money gathered and spent on a few? It is worse than
fascism. It is in the name of Truth, Beauty, and Love. What a lie!”

I could characterize my life before the FoF as a foggy day and after the FoF a sunny day. I had a nice life before, a happy childhood, enough friends, a fair amount of success. But still unfulfilled. After meeting the school I was finally introduced to my long lost self. And once one has oneself one is complete. Friction doesn’t stop, one is not immune to suffering but one meets every test with the open eyes of a child.

This does not just happen it requires efforts induced by specific work and being guided by someone who has been “through the eye of the needle.”

I’m truly sorry it did not work for you. But what should I do, give up everything I looked for and that nurtures me because it did not work for you. I probably know you, but as of now you’re an anonymous voice telling me I should leave my joy and salvation to follow your lead. Can you see the futility in what you are asking me?

163. Dr. Pangloss - November 12, 2009

162. Daily Cardiac
“And once one has oneself one is complete.”

Powerful statement. Which one are you referring to?

“as of now you’re an anonymous voice telling me I should leave my joy and salvation to follow your lead. ”

No, please stay there. Keep being complete with oneself and suck up all the joy and salvation you can get. You deserve it.
I wish you the best of luck.

164. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 12, 2009

162. Daily Cardiac:
‘But what should I do, give up everything I looked for and that nurtures me because it did not work for you. I probably know you, but as of now you’re an anonymous voice telling me I should leave my joy and salvation to follow your lead. Can you see the futility in what you are asking me?’

D.C., (read: Deception Confirmed),
You delude yourself! Nobody, or at least not me, is trying to get you to ‘give up everything I looked for and that nurtures me.’ However, as I wrote before, and you have chosen to ignore, is your acceptance that this may be possible:

96. Wouldnt You Like To Know:
‘And, BTW, you did not mention this possibility: that former members have stopped looking for a teacher and a real school because they FOUND what they were looking for – and it isn’t/wasn’t Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. And, if that were the case for just 10% of the 15,000 former members (which is a good possibility), that would mean that 1500 people, that are out, may have the opposite view of what truth may be compared to the 1500, or so, current members who are still seekers of truth. I suggest you entertain the possibility that your thinking may be faulty.’

And:

112. Wouldnt You Like To Know:
‘- How about that idea that ‘former members have stopped looking for a teacher and a real school because they FOUND what they were looking for – and it isn’t/wasn’t Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.’

You expect the other bloggers to accept your truth; and I do. But, can you accept their truth? This is a simple ‘yes or no’ question. No need for your endless, and mostly meaningless, diatribe. Just, yes or no, can you accept others’ truth that:
‘former members have stopped looking for a teacher and a real school because they FOUND what they were looking for – and it isn’t/wasn’t Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.’???

I am not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, or anything like that. Your truth is your truth, and I accept that. Two differing truths can exist at the same time. Can you accept the truth as it is for other people? This is kind of like external consideration – to try and put yourself in another person’s position and see things, temporarily, as they may see it. It can potentially produce better understanding amongst people.

And, this is the last time I will address a posting to you because you are a monumental waste of time; it’s like talking to a brick wall – it feels so good when you stop.

165. GoldenVeil - November 12, 2009

*

“If you do not breathe through writing, if you do not cry out in writing, or sing in writing, then don’t write, because our culture has no use for it.”

[Anais Nin]

DC ~

All of my posts have the same specific intention.

To bring down the imaginary Berlin Wall that surrounds you.

And to prevent another Seeker from choosing to surround their

lovely Self by this pretend ‘School’.

Yes the gardens are beautiful. And, I am sure that you must have

plenty to do there. But what are you doing?

I do not see ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton as having gone through

‘the eye of the needle’ [Gurdjieff]. I see only a man with a gift for

charismatic leadership who employs captivating card tricks and

entertaining storytelling to literally enslave men and women; some

of whom are kept near by in order to better fulfill his sexual needs.

Please re-read posts No. 155 by Opus 111.

Your ‘nurture’ comes at great cost.

Lisa

“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one’s courage.”

[Anais Nin]

*

166. GoldenVeil - November 12, 2009

*

Dear Tatyana [post 156],

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my questions.

*

“But I will try to talk to them about Promoting and Prolonging Presence, see how far we can go in our conversation.”

‘Promoting and Prolonging Presence’ is such a catchy phrase.

Is this terminology a development of modern day marketing, or

is it from published fourth way literature and I have forgotten it?

Lisa

*

“We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are. ”

[Anais Nin]

167. Jomo Piñata - November 12, 2009

I know I told Lacuna Piñata that “you can’t always get what you want.” But that’s not actually true in the Fellowship. Because in the Fellowship, you learn to want what you get, and to forget what you want.

They always said, “remember what you came for.” But look at Lacuna Piñata. I take from the way he tells his story that he remembers himself as someone looking for a conscious school, and he says he found one. But that isn’t really what happened. That’s just what Lacuna Piñata tells himself happened to him.

Lacuna Piñata never heard of a “Conscious School” before meeting the Fellowship. “Conscious School” is Fellowship jargon. The jargon itself has shaped his memory because he has learned to characterize his life to fit the jargon. The jargon restricts what he remembers and restricts what he can think. Whatever happened to him, that’s what C influence intended. It’s his “work” to want *that* and not to want anything different than that.

So, in that way, the most productive change agent of all, individual initiative based on being the author of one’s own destiny, has been hitched to someone else’s wagon, that of the “Conscious School.” By means of this esoteric shell game, what Lacuna Piñata wants, what he remembers, what he advocates, is determined not by himself, but by “Conscious School,” i.e., someone else. If there’s a discrepancy between what Lacuna Piñata wants and what the Conscious School wants, what Lacuna Piñata wants is characterized as “lower self.” It’s lower self by definition because “Conscious School” is said to represent “Higher Self.”

In theory, you can always get what you want if you can confine what you want to what you get. In practice, I don’t know of any human being who can do that, and if I did I would regard them as lobotomized. But I’ve known a lot of human beings who grew their way out of the conundrum I just described. I wish that for you, too, Lacuna Piñata.

168. JustDiscussing - November 12, 2009

Dear Daily Cardiac,

I’d like to comment on two of the more substantial points that you make in your messages.

1. The sex. Your counter examples of a CEO having sex with an employee and Ralph Fiennes having sex on an airplane with a hostess are hardly similar to what Robert is doing. In the Fiennes example, the hostess, Lisa Robertson claims to have initiated the sex herself. Just to be clear, we are talking about Robert having unprotected sex with (over the years) hundreds of heterosexual men, usually married or in a relationship. Orgies with multiple partners. Extreme sex including fistibe, urination and defecation. Promoting a myth of omnipresent gods who offer salvation from eternal and then using that idea to persuade the FOF student to have sex with him. Sex with at least one underage partner. Seeking out new partners from other centers, using dubious visa applications to move them to Apollo, showering them with gifts paid by money donated by FOF students. Making them take Viagra as a matter of course. Pro,oting them to favored positions. Excommuncating them and ostracizing them when they become too upset with Robert. Excommuncating them and ostracizing members who publicly
I’ve never been fond of the “rape factory” rhetoric, but it’s clear that the Fellowship includes a highly efficient, high maintenance mechanism for supplying Robert with as many sexual partners as he wants.

2. Your belief that ex-members stop searching, hence they weren’t real seekers in the first place, and that’s probably why they condemn the FOF. Some ex-members are indeed disillusioned enough by their decades in the Fellowship to abandon any search for awakening or higher meaning. Many others have become involved with nondualism, or the Gurdjieff Foundation (which does claim to be a school, incidentally) or with many other teachings. So what you say just isn’t true. However, most ex-members do manage to avoid authoritarian, led by a charismatic guru, closed circle groups with high financial demands and organised sexual abuse, who practice shunning, dire metaphysical consequences for those who leave, money laundering, etc…. If the latter is what you mean by a “conscious school” then, yes, most of us prefer not to get involved in another one.

169. WhaleRider - November 12, 2009

The rapture of child-like surrender to an authority figure is indeed entrancing and addictive.

In addiction, one bends one’s thinking around justifiying one’s actions, as Jomo put it, simply because the drug or behavior feels good and one wants more, despite the obvious warning signs…ironically, the need for immediate gratification forces them to live impulsively for the moment, the here and now, without regard to the future consequencces of their actions…a perfect storm for FOF followers.

Addicts often have a deep seated co-dependency issue that makes them feel unfulfilled and incomplete, and the drug or addictive behavior compensates the ego deficit and makes them feel “complete” and “whole”.

Daily Cardiac admits he is like a child, wishing to crawl back into the safety and comfort of the womb, abbdicating any responsibility for himself through complete and open surrender to an authority figure of mythic proportions.

It is extremely frustrating for those around a person mired in addiction to get through to them until the person eventually has a ‘rock bottom’ experience that wakes them up out of their stupor.

Unfortuntately for FOF followers, the organization is a mirror for Burton’s addictions a “matrix” for those with underlying co-dependency issues; for many the “rock bottom’ experience is cushioned with the cult doctrine of ‘voluntary suffering’ or ‘transformation of negative emotions’, thus shackling the followers in perpetual psychic limbo.

Such is the case with Mr Cardiac and the like-minded. They refuse to see the truth, which is why FOF followers don’t read the blog.

However, Cardiac’s “conscious” need to justify himself here on this blog speaks to the part of his unconscious mind that is insecure about his involvement. He has his doubts and must come here to convice himself of the ‘rightness’ of his actions. He isn’t really addressing us at all, but his own doubt…a person with a lobotomy cannot do this. He is reachig out in his own way, to the best of his abilities, and I commend him for that.

The soul craves freedom and harmony…which is unavailable for those whom have hitched their wagon to a person suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I am grateful we have him here, and he needs to be here.

It takes a village…

170. Tatyana - November 12, 2009

“We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are. ”

DC “When people relinquish their free will and submit to the suggestions or proposals of others and then recoil from the experience at a later date there is a lesson to be learned and the lesson in this case is not about abuse but about self examination, about developing a right understanding of what free will really means and what the consequences of giving up free will really means.”

A dialog with the FOF member:
– When a person is asked to give up his will to the teacher and then used as a sex toy…
– Nonsense! No one is asked to give up his will to the teacher! Did Robert ever ask you to give up your will to him? He never told me that I have to give up my will for him!
– Wow, you really live in a bubble then – it is a common place in FOF, even Daily Cardiac knows it!
– No, people are getting something, it is a deal. They get energy and knowledge from Robert, that’s why they want to be with him. And sometimes it means that they must pay something, sacrifice something that is not conducive to that energy.

171. ton - November 12, 2009

thanks whalerider for a thoughtful and insightful post re: the general and specific condition represented here by dc. ya, the dude can be aggravating but i agree, this is as good a place as he will find to begin rehabilitation… (or maybe i misrepresent dc as a male, maybe he is a she? whatever the case, for the purposes of my question i’m going to assume that she is a he). i will ask a question of dc that i’ve asked him before but received no reply… the question is based partly on the fact that dc has some very confused notions regarding the nature and use of ‘reasoning’ — he ignores or doesn’t realize — and he certainly doesn’t understand that the premises of his arguments are all based on BELIEF… and his belief is based on his oh-so frail faith in a flim-flam man, a con-artist who runs just-another-phony-garden-variety little cult… (you can’t convince any cultist of this, it flies in the face of their firmly held belief that they are somehow special and unique through their association). dc lives with the seed of a deep-seated doubt and so he continually feels an urge and a need to return here in order to bolster and attempt to reconstitute his flimsy faith. ultimately his faith in that fraudulent ‘teacher’ of his is all he has and that ain’t much, but it’s his whole pathetic world. so he returns again and again here to build up his little world, he comes back again and again to single-handedly — and therefore ‘valiantly’ — battle ‘the dragon,’ i.e. the forces that are contrary to his beliefs…. but the key here is that which lies behind and underneath it all; part of what keeps him coming back to defend his own faith in the ‘honor’ of his ‘conscious teacher’ and the truth and integrity of his ‘teaching,’ is one salient fact: dc is in love…. ahh, isn’t it just precious? now there’s a saying in my country; ‘love is blind’ which partly explains and accounts for the myopic condition dc exhibits here on a regular basis… this leads me to the question for dc:

HEY DC,
ARE YOU LETTING THAT COCK SUCKER YOU CALL “TEACHER” SUCK YOUR COCK?

(i don’t expect a response but that’s ok i’m pretty certain of the answer… the point is how clouded and murky dc’s judgment is and why that is so).

172. brucelevy - November 12, 2009

171. ton

My guess is “he” is a non-suckee. RB doesn’t really like his type, except for money. Apologists and defenders are frequently those who have to create their own imaginary worth in lieu of sexual attention by defending the indefensible (flying monkey).

173. Mikey - November 12, 2009

Jomo refers to DC as “my brother”, and once said she knew who it was. I see the main purpose of his postings as:
a) To draw attention to himself
b) To draw attention away from Robert Burton

He does not listen to anyone here and does not know anything at all about life or about himself. Ah well, he is his own punishment.

174. Jomo Piñata - November 12, 2009

Lacuna Piñata may be my brother, but I don’t know who he is.

175. ton - November 12, 2009

172 bruce

you have a point… if dc actually was a contributor to the burton sperm bank, he might already be closer than he appears, to being awake to the terror and reality of the situation; the entire operation is a scam set up to service the insatiable appetites of ol’ arkansas bobby. on the other hand, if dc’s ‘love’ for his ‘teacher’ is of the ‘higher’ platonic sort, this probably means that he’ll have to ‘bravely’ pine-away the rest of his life with the false and unattainable hope represented by his imagined ‘consumation’ with ‘the teacher.’ poor dc… he’ll never know what he’s missing… ironic isn’t it?

176. Mikey - November 12, 2009

My apologies for the mistake, Jomo. Who cares who It is? Inanity thy name don’t matter.

177. silentpurr - November 12, 2009

When asked why he would ever want to consume his victims, Jeffery Dahlmer replied with all sincerity that he “wanted them to be a part of himself”. How romantic……….
Take care, gentlemen, with your colorful language. DC ‘s reasons for disobeying RB are not yet known. He may actually ENJOY being admonished!

178. nige - November 12, 2009

168 JustDiscussing

It may be interesting to mention that REB calls the type of sexual behaviour that is shared between him and his ‘boys’ – super-sex – or, rather, as Gurdjieff defined the term – supra-sex. The fact is that Gurdjieff meant that that sexual energy, as perhaps it may be emanated in spiritual terms is, in fact, an eternity away from sex with REB, which, in actual fact, Gurdieff would have described as infra-sex. And it is my view that any form of sexual behaviour which involves features (‘work terminology’) can only be infra-sex. This is upheld by Ouspensky saying that “nothing negative should come near sex”. AND REB’S GREED, DOMINANCE AND CRIMINAL INSANITY ARE ALL NEGATIVE!!!!!…..Nigel.

179. Daily Cardiac - November 12, 2009

158. James Mclemore –

“DC said,

“This discussion is supposed to be about spiritual matters;”

He is mistaken. Actually he knows better, and he only wishes it was about that. He wishes it was about almost anything other than what it really is, and then tries his best to develop conversation about other topics. This blog is about the Fellowship of Friends that presents itself as spirituality but is actually a cult full of deception and fraud. This blog is about the abuse of power.

This blog is a lot simpler than he wishes it was.”

I did indeed say the blog is “supposed” to be about spiritual matters. James says I am mistaken so I presume he means it’s not supposed to be about spiritual matters.

Well he’s right in that so far it has not been about spiritual matters. In fact practically all that is discussed is sex or money; hardly spiritual subjects. Do a word search and see how many times the words sex or money come up vs awakening.(and I’m probably responsible for most of those hits)

Unwittingly James makes my point better than I could in his statements of #158.

The FoF defines itself as a spiritual school of awakening and the critics and opponents here say it’s not a spiritual school but no more than a scam and fraudulent organization.

So in fact they (ex members) must apply spiritual truths and conditions to their evaluations of the FoF, if those evaluations are to be considered valid. How then can the blog be about anything but spiritual matters? James and I seem to agree on one point and that is the blog, up to the present time, has not been about spiritual matters, but about very earthly matters.

If a food expert is evaluating a restaurant’s performance in the area of quality of the dishes on the menu doesn’t the conversation have to focus on ” food matters” ?

JM – “This blog is a lot simpler than he wishes it was”

I don’t know about the blog being simple but the real issues at hand are indeed simple they just have not yet been explored in their entirety.

I know most contributors to this blog will not follow along with this reasoning but if you deem a spiritual organization to be false you need to prove it false by spiritual standards.

As I’ve said several times, in particular to Tatyana up a little on this page, teacher sex with students, even kinky sex, does not disqualify the FoF from being exactly what it claims to be.

If someone were to say – “I came to the FoF because I wanted to see myself better, to acquire the tools and methods to help me remember myself / be present more deeply, more frequently, and it has not delivered on it’s part of the bargain while I feel I have lived up to my part.” Or “I came to verify higher forces and learn more about this area, how they work with us/communicate with us, but it was never discussed.”

Then we would have the basis for a discussion on whether the FoF was deficient or lacking in its duties as a school. That would be the basis for a spiritual discussion.

180. GoldenVeil - November 12, 2009

*

I would like to thank writers of posts No. 167, No.168, and No.169 for their eloquent & thoughtful writing. Also the writer of post No. 171 for asking the provocative. This is real food for FOF refugees.

Post No.170 brings us word from a current FOF ‘Student’, including:

“…people are getting something, it is a deal. They get energy
and knowledge from Robert, that’s why they want to be with him.
And sometimes it means that they must pay something, sacrifice something that is not conducive to that energy.”

To be a ‘Student’ one must accept the ‘Teachings’ of a hypocrite.

*

And now, for something lighter…The Matrix, if it was filmed in 1905, starring Charlie Chaplin as Neo, the saviour of reality.

*

181. Tatyana - November 12, 2009

“That would be the basis for a spiritual discussion.”

Great! Why didn’t you so before?

I came to the FoF because I was looking for the 4th Way school/group and FoF claimed to be the one and even had a direct lineage to Gurdgieff (which turned out to be a lie)
I was not looking for methods to help me to remember myself/be present more deeply because this is what I was told I should be doing while IN FoF. Neither was I looking for verification of higher forces, because in the 4th way books there are no higher forces. I was looking for the methods of man’s possible evolution. I did what I should be doing – I was paying, following exercises, going to the meetings and washing dishes at the Galleria. But, instead of becoming more awake I was falling asleep under a hypnosis of RB and older students, and I was wasting my time believing that I was in a higher state.

How about this for a spiritual discussion?

182. brucelevy - November 12, 2009

179. Daily Cardiac

I mentioned this to you before, but I’ll say it again. Your posts are nothing more than pre-adolescent intellectual masturbation. What’s astounding is your lack of conscience and complete lack of self-awareness in that you have no shame or hesitation about whipping it out and doing it here in front of all of us. You are the fool of the farce. You are, as I mentioned before, the guy on the subway who exposes himself for a reaction yet doesn’t perceive the disgust he elicits.

183. ton - November 12, 2009

dc 179 you didn’t answer my question… again. i’ll make is simpler, i won’t ask if your ‘teacher’ sucks your pee pee… i’ll simply ask if you imagine that you ‘love’ your ‘teacher?’ and the follow-up is, if so then how does that skew your perception and judgment? you think about it.

as for your ‘notions’ about what constitutes “the basis for a spiritual discussion…” it won’t be surprising that i disagree with your basic premise… you have the habit of mind of putting ideas into neat compartments…. (think back to your childhood… what was your experience of ‘potty training’ — think about it and get back to us)… over here in this box we have contained the ‘higher self’ and in this box down here we have the ‘lower self’…. in this room lives the ‘spiritual’ and over here on the other side of the house lives the ‘material’ etc. to make these artificial distinctions serves no useful purpose…. except possibly in the case of someone like you who is so much in the habit and seems to love nothing more than to obfuscate and spin endless webs of self-deception and illusion.

but one could instead think in terms of all and everything being a manifestation of ‘god’ and therefore in some sense or degree having a so-called ‘spiritual’ aspect or dimension. this to me implies an examination of the ‘spiritual’ manifestation of the ‘matter’ in question. in the case of conscious bob for example, he happens to be the physical conduit for a variety of spirits such as; greed, deception. vanity, lust, gluttony, avarice, etc, etc.

184. Daily Cardiac - November 13, 2009

WYLTK – 164:

“You expect the other bloggers to accept your truth; and I do. But, can you accept their truth? This is a simple ‘yes or no’ question. No need for your endless, and mostly meaningless, diatribe. Just, yes or no, can you accept others’ truth that:
‘former members have stopped looking for a teacher and a real school because they FOUND what they were looking for – and it isn’t/wasn’t Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.’???”

As you have worded the question I can unequivocally answer – Yes.

185. X-ray - November 13, 2009

To talk to Daily Crap it’s like playing tennis with the wall, there is nobody there.

186. Daily Cardiac - November 13, 2009

ton – 171:

“and he certainly doesn’t understand that the premises of his arguments are all based on BELIEF…”

All premises, understandings, observations, are based on belief. They can be based on beivefing what is true or believing what is not true, but it’s belief nonetheless.

“and his belief is based on his oh-so frail faith in a flim-flam man, a con-artist who runs just-another-phony-garden-variety little cult…”

The truth of that has not been determined here. This is your stated belief. I say stated because deep down you may not even believe it yourself.

But whatever it is it’s not of the garden variety, and you are well aware of that; so don’t be so disingenuous.

183

“dc 179 you didn’t answer my question… again. i’ll make is simpler, i won’t ask if your ‘teacher’ sucks your pee pee… i’ll simply ask if you imagine that you ‘love’ your ‘teacher?’ and the follow-up is, if so then how does that skew your perception and judgment? you think about it.”

I don’t imagine I love him, I do love him. He’s given me the ultimate gift, myself. It would be mindbogglingly callous of me not to love him.

As far as the second part of your question I’ll still answer it even thought the “imagine’ is not part of the equation and I’ll assume the answer still applies for you.

We’ve all been in friendships, relationships where we were infatuated, “in Love” with another. When in that state they can do no wrong. But perhaps something changes and they “do wrong’, to us no less. And so the “love” turns to its opposite, hate. All the while the other person exists for themselves, they do not change, they are who they are, only our perception of them changes. We “see” something we did not see before. But in either case we are working on incomplete, and skewered information.

When aligned with them we give give them too much praise and when we are against them we give them too much scorn. All the while they have an “objective” existence aside from our perceptions. They may have virtues the hater does not see and vices the lover does not see.

This is why schools are necessary, they release us from the illusions of the second state so we see things more for what they are and not what we project on the situation.

True Love, which I feel for RB, is only possible from a higher state. And hate is not possible from that same higher state.
What we often call love is more related to lust, which changes like the wind.

Tatyana – 181:

“I came to the FoF because I was looking for the 4th Way school/group and FoF claimed to be the one and even had a direct lineage to Gurdgieff (which turned out to be a lie)”

A direct link with Gurdjieff is formed with whomever understands him the most, not with who has the closest physical proximity to him or his students.

“I was not looking for methods to help me to remember myself/be present more deeply because this is what I was told I should be doing while IN FoF.”

Well the whole point is to engage one’s higher Self, to remember the Self, be present to the Self. But that doesn’t happen just because you write out a check to the FoF, or because you are an “older student” or around older students. It only happens with the right efforts. Wrong efforts, no matter how sincere, are fruitless.

“Neither was I looking for verification of higher forces, because in the 4th way books there are no higher forces.”

I think you’re mistaken. I no longer own a copy of the Fourth Way but if my memory is correct Ouspensky says at the very beginning, maybe page 1, that the only reason those ideas have any value is because they do not come from man, but from higher mind.

No one can successfully do the work without verifying higher forces.

“But, instead of becoming more awake I was falling asleep under a hypnosis of RB and older students, and I was wasting my time believing that I was in a higher state.”

It’s not easy to do the work in the correct way, in fact it’s not easy to do anything in the correct way. If you look at the figures of those who apply for entrance into Harvard Business School with the figures of those who actually graduate and go on to become an executive in a corporation or form a corporation that is successful the figures will be less than 10%, or about the same as those who stay in the FoF.

By the way, I answered your first 3 questions because they seemd sincerely asked, then in your next post to me you started fantasizing. I hope you didn’t expect me to respond to your fanticies.

To no one in particular:

A few have been speculating that I come here for attention and some of the same ones have dedicated entire posts to musing about Daily Cardiac; whether he’s a he or a she, whether he’s had sex with the teacher or not. It’s interesting to observe that little phenomenon. But it does succeed in avoiding the issues before us.

silentpurr – 177:

I gave a lot of energy to your question when I responded in #80 – 85, and all you came back with was something about Jeffery Dalmer.
Could you elaborate on what he has to do with the matter at hand?

By the way, in case you didn’t know, a romantic is a person having no basis in fact.

168. JustDiscussing – November 12, 2009

“Dear Daily Cardiac,

I’d like to comment on two of the more substantial points that you make in your messages.

1. The sex. Your counter examples of a CEO having sex with an employee and Ralph Fiennes having sex on an airplane with a hostess are hardly similar to what Robert is doing. In the Fiennes example, the hostess, Lisa Robertson claims to have initiated the sex herself. Just to be clear, we are talking about Robert having unprotected sex with (over the years) hundreds of heterosexual men, usually married or in a relationship.”

The Ralph Fiennes example is appropriate, especially since the flight attendant, as you say, initiated the sex. The point is that she seized the moment. If any other passenger would have approached her for sex in the lavatory she would have refused. Why was Ralph any different? Because he had something she wanted, power in the form of celebrity, status.

Robert also has status and celebrity and many students want a part of that. That’s not the whole story though. I’m sure he has many loving relationships where the love is reciprocal. If there are those who consent to sex and then regret it that’s not so unusual. Many people regret many of their actions in life. Maybe the actions were not appropriate, maybe the actions did turn out like they expected, The reasons for regret are numerous. But consent is consent, the onus is on the one who consents.

“Sex with at least one underage partner.”

I’m glad you brought it up. What happened in that case? The person who initiated the suit settled out of court. What did he settle for? Money. He could have decided the justice of a trial was more important than the money, you know, the principle of the matter.

In Robert’s case paying the money made sense. Defending himself could have cost much more than he paid. In any event Tr_y and his attorney probably felt he did not have a strong enough case to take to trial or else they would taken it to the hilt and had the trial and got the attorney fees plus the damages.

And by the way, any one can sue anyone else for anything these days. Suing is not tantamount to having a legitimate cause. Recently someone (a judge no less) sued a dry cleaning establishment for $5,000,000 dollars for losing a pair trousers. The suit was eventually thrown out but the owners of the dry cleaning firm went out of business in the process of paying lawyer’s bills.

For the record Tr_y was 17 + years old, an emancipated person supporting himself full time, 6′ 2″ and very athletic looking; certainly someone who could have been thought to be over 18, the age individuals need to be in order to join the FoF. Tr_y had a waiver to join through parental consent.

167. Jomo Piñata:

“Lacuna Piñata never heard of a “Conscious School” before meeting the Fellowship. “Conscious School” is Fellowship jargon. The jargon itself has shaped his memory because he has learned to characterize his life to fit the jargon.”

I first encountered the term Esoteric School from Ouspensky, which sparked the search that culminated by joining the FoF. Consciousness is implied in the term Esoteric School.

“In theory, you can always get what you want if you can confine what you want to what you get. In practice, I don’t know of any human being who can do that, and if I did I would regard them as lobotomized. But I’ve known a lot of human beings who grew their way out of the conundrum I just described. I wish that for you, too, Lacuna Piñata.”

In practice no one gets what they want if it’s not granted by higher forces. Everything is controlled by the spirit world. There are a lot of things you want and don’t get. The same for me and for everyone.

I want what they want and the things I try to get and do get I know it’s through divine consent. The things I try to get but can’t I assume it’s not in the cards, and if it were I’d get them without trying.

I stopped kicking in doors a log time ago.

187. Yesri Baba - November 13, 2009

“By the way, I answered your first 3 questions because they seemd sincerely asked, then in your next post to me you started fantasizing. I hope you didn’t expect me to respond to your fanticies.”

That’s not very fair, people have been responding to yours.

188. anna - November 13, 2009

Dear Moderator and All,

Would you be able to change the title of this discussion so that it incorporates the words PATHWAY TO PRESENCE? as this is the name that the cult is recruiting under in Europe and Russia.

Also could writers please refer to Pathway to Presence in their comments, as well as The Fellowship of Friends, FOF etc, as this will increase the posibility that potential followers browsing the internet will get the real picture.

The FoF/AKA ‘Pathway to Presence’ website is very alluring. My fifteen year old daughter started weeping when she saw it. She missed the dream, that her mother and all of us had – so badly.

Ironically in the Fellowship (AKA Pathway to presence) we used to call advertisements “Crime”.

All that beauty- concealing and compelling money and sexual victims into Burton’s snare.

189. James Mclemore - November 13, 2009

“hook, line, and sinker”

Etymology: based on the idea of a fish so hungry it swallows the hook (the part that catches the fish), the line ( the string) and the sinker (a weight attached to the line to keep it under water)

190. anna - November 13, 2009

By the way,

I feel guilty about not writing on the blog myself. But frankly being reminded about the awfulness of the FoF/Pathway to Presence/Robert Burton, still stresses me out… I get a headache just being here; not quite enough distance yet.

But am very grateful to those of you who do contribute; it seems the honorable thing to do.

DC’s presence is especially painful. I probably know him or her and have most likely, cared for them once. He/she represents a terrible blindness, that I too have once sufered from. I literaly feel ill when I read parts of the text.

Have just watched a film called ‘Good’ my daughter and I chose it because the title seemed cheerful. It was about a man who was genuinely kind and good, yet somehow against his wishes, he became a member of the SS.

I was very shocked by the film. Bit by bit you saw him blinding himself to reality, and when his behaviour went against conventional morality, his Nazi colleagues enthusiastically reassured him that he was ‘above the law’ now.

And the Nazis and the complicit Germans seemed like cheerful happy people, who could see nothing ‘wrong’, and who were reaping tremendous benefits from their chosen path; and who had time and time again blinded themselves to the consequences of their actions.

Each time he was about to betray his conscience the ‘good’ man, would have a brief halucination: in it the people around him would suddenly become an orchestra, playing beautiful music.

Cheers,
Anna

191. James Mclemore - November 13, 2009

anna –

No need to feel guilty – Be glad you are free – Find another good movie to watch with your daughter.

192. Ill Never Tell - November 13, 2009

169. WhaleRider
Very well stated.

182. brucelevy
‘I mentioned this to you before, but I’ll say it again. Your posts are nothing more than pre-adolescent intellectual masturbation.’

That’s because he is taught by a master baiter.

189. James Mclemore:
“hook, line, and sinker”

Again, master baiter!

193. Yesri Baba - November 13, 2009

“The splitting of the atom, rocketing a man to the moon, creation of the microchip, all the work of conscious school.”

Dumbfuck

194. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 13, 2009

Going back on my earlier words and addressing D.C. in this post; but good for anyone to read:

184. Daily Cardiac:
‘WYLTK – 164:
“You expect the other bloggers to accept your truth; and I do. But, can you accept their truth? This is a simple ‘yes or no’ question. No need for your endless, and mostly meaningless, diatribe. Just, yes or no, can you accept others’ truth that:
‘former members have stopped looking for a teacher and a real school because they FOUND what they were looking for – and it isn’t/wasn’t Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.’???” [a.k.a.: Pathway to Presence]

As you have worded the question I can unequivocally answer – Yes.’

That is the most intelligent thing I have seen you post here on the blog.

* * * * * *
186. Daily Cardiac:
‘“[T, 181] Neither was I looking for verification of higher forces, because in the 4th way books there are no higher forces.”

I think you’re mistaken. I no longer own a copy of the Fourth Way but if my memory is correct Ouspensky says at the very beginning, maybe page 1, that the only reason those ideas have any value is because they do not come from man, but from higher mind.’

‘BEFORE I BEGIN TO EXPLAIN TO YOU in a general way what this system is about, and to talk about our methods, I want particularly to impress on your minds that the most important ideas and principles of the system do not belong to me. This is chiefly what makes them valuable, because if they belonged to me they would be like all other theories invented by ordinary minds—they would give only a subjective view of things.’
First paragraph:
P. D. OUSPENSKY, THE FOURTH WAY, A RECORD OF TALKS AND ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS BASED ON THE TEACHING OF G. I. GURDJIEFF

And, by extension of reason, the ‘ideas and principles of the system’ do not belong to The Fellowship of Friends [a.k.a.: Pathway to Presence], Robert Earl Burton, any older ‘students,’ Daily Cardiac, me, or anyone else, etc.

* * * * * *
186. Daily Cardiac:
‘For the record Tr_y was 17 + years old, an emancipated person supporting himself full time, 6′ 2″ and very athletic looking; certainly someone who could have been thought to be over 18, the age individuals need to be in order to join the FoF. Tr_y had a waiver to join through parental consent.’

D.C. I do not know who you are but I can tell you that I knew Tr_y, how you may say, up close and personal, before, during and after the ‘Trojan War,’ and there are several distinct lies in your above paragraph.

And, BTW, main reason the case was settled was at the insistence of the Fellowship of Friends [a.k.a.: Pathway to Presence] insurance company because they wanted to cut their potential losses.

When you are in a dark tunnel and eventually you see the light that appears to be the end of the tunnel, it could just as well be the locomotive coming down the track right at you.

195. Panoritsa - November 13, 2009

I really appreciate the ones who try to reason with the DC person. He is a tragic figure. In a way, we all wanted to believe the presence of goodness in the Fellowship of Friends (Pathway to Presence), but his frequency here and his desperation to prove the cult is not a cult but a “school of love”, I do not know what to name it … loneliness maybe?

196. ton - November 13, 2009

dc

“But whatever it is it’s not of the garden variety, and you are well aware of that; so don’t be so disingenuous.”

disingenuous?!?!? you have no clue… you’re truly an absurd ass…

http://www.rickross.com/links.html

197. Mikey - November 13, 2009

You have your dream world and…
Have it your way, forget about immoral & criminal,
How about just plain obscene?

198. Mikey - November 13, 2009

Of course, that’s just a kinky turn-on for some.

199. Jomo Piñata - November 13, 2009

190/anna

I second the Good recommendation; I saw the play back in 1986 or 7, but I’ve never seen the movie.

200. Crouching Tiger - November 13, 2009

“A direct link with Gurdjieff is formed with whomever understands him the most, not with who has the closest physical proximity to him or his students.”

Although I know it’s only one part of the wider argument going on with DC here, I feel it’s important to repudiate this kind of nonsense about the Fellowship of Friends being in any way a 4th Way school – again.

The kind of magical understanding DC is talking about does not actually exist. It is a fraud. The teachings of Jesus and Mohammed, and all the great teachers of the past, were transmitted by their disciples, those whose understanding was trustworthy. The teachings were handed down from one generation to the next by word of mouth.

Gurdjieff himself said that “the more a man studies the deceits which lie in wait for him at every step in his esoteric search, the more he is convinced that it is impossible to travel the path of self-development following the chance instruction of chance people or the kind of information which is culled from conversational talk or from reading”.

Those in the fellowship are receiving chance instruction from chance people who happen to have read ‘In Search of the Miraculous’ or the other work books. The biggest chancer of the lot is Robert Burton, who never submitted himself to a word of instruction from anybody, except eighteen months from a fellow chancer by the name of Alex Horn. And even Horn booted him out for sexual antics of the same garden variety as he gets away with now.

From my own experience, I would say that Burton’s version of the 4th Way is seriously flawed.

The only legitimacy of the school he created is to show what a ‘wrong way’ looks and feels like: “The only positive result of all wanderings in the winding tracks of esoteric search will be that a man will evolve that special faculty of discrimination, sound judgment and thought. He will discard the ways of psychopathy and error and will persistently search for true ways” [Gurdjieff].

The problem is that some people can make even wrong ways work for them, at least for a while, and it makes escape from those ways much harder than they might otherwise be.

As Gurdjieff himself pointed out, esoteric learning does not necessarily make a person objective about what they are learning. It does not help them to think soundly: “Our thinking machine possesses the capacity to be convinced of anything, provided it is repeatedly influenced in the required direction. A thing which may appear absurd to start with, will be rationalised in the end. [He] will find intricate proofs and paradoxes to explain what he says – suggesting methods which lead to a state in which these assertions can be verified”.

This is DC in a capsule, and the result is an embryonic psychopath.

Sound judgment and thought. Conspicuously lacking in DC’s posts, although it clearly does work through the posts of a number of people on this blog.

201. Mikey - November 13, 2009

Pure excrement, DC. What are you eating?

202. Jomo Piñata - November 13, 2009

Lacuna Piñata, at 85/167, wrote:

In practice no one gets what they want if it’s not granted by higher forces. Everything is controlled by the spirit world. There are a lot of things you want and don’t get. The same for me and for everyone.

I want what they want and the things I try to get and do get I know it’s through divine consent. The things I try to get but can’t I assume it’s not in the cards, and if it were I’d get them without trying.

Ah, now we’re getting somewhere. You’re showing us your thinking on why things happen, causation, the relationship between what you want and what you get.

You tell us you get what you want because it’s in the cards, and if it’s in the cards you get it without trying. Right?

And you learned this from the Big Kahuna either directly or through his organizational entourage, right?

The relationship between the causal attributions people make and how narcissistic they are has been studied. See http://bit.ly/2Xajl , for example. What you seem to be telling us is that the things that are meant to happen, happen to you without your effort, because it’s in the cards. The consequence of this is that you don’t make efforts which you could make, because whatever is going to happen is going to happen without your effort, by reason of [insert metaphysical explanation here].

You would do well to learn about something called “learned helplessness,” Lacuna Piñata. What you are describing sounds basically helpless to me. You didn’t used to be so passive and helpless. Something made you that way. You have to find your way out of it.

That asinine “we cannot do” idea? It’s like a big cage that comes down on you and nearly immobilizes you. But you have the power to get out from under it, if you can find it. I wish that for you, Lacuna Piñata.

203. WhaleRider - November 13, 2009

Daily Cardiac:
“In practice no one gets what they want if it’s not granted by higher forces. Everything is controlled by the spirit world.”

The “spirit world” is a metaphor for the unseen forces and mythic archtypes of the unconscious mind.

Superstition is symbolic of a state of self-ignorance and immaturity…a developmental stage in which a person projects out from themselves that which they unable to understand about themselves, thus relieving them of responsibility…”the devil made me do it…higher forces made this happen.”

Apparently, you believe in a literal spirit world.

Your feet are made of clay.

204. Tatyana - November 13, 2009

DC “By the way, I answered your first 3 questions because they seemd sincerely asked, then in your next post to me you started fantasizing. I hope you didn’t expect me to respond to your fanticies.”

Fuck you. What do you call “my insincere fantasies” – post 146, 156, 170 or 181?

Even with my English I do begin to feel your exhibitionism. You sound like a young and immature vain stud. Very much Nazi-like. So if you want to have a sincere discussion, stop that.

“A direct link with Gurdjieff is formed with whomever understands him the most”.
Bullshit! But Crouching Tiger wrote beautifully already on this subject, so I will leave it at that.

“Well the whole point is to engage one’s higher Self, to remember the Self, be present to the Self.”

The whole point? Says who? I know who.
The whole point to me is not to be in a “higher” state, but to be awake. Sober. To have clear vision with a good understanding of what is going on and why am I doing things. In FOF we are not taught to do self-inquires, to observe what is behind our choices, actions etc. We were taught not to think, not to listen to inner voices, impulses etc as it was called “the lower self”. Instead of seeking the truth you were told that the truth is what Robert says because he is a higher being. And you have to believe him and obey him. This is the whole point. And in this way you will never find your true self or develop consciousness and will. You will remain in a cult your whole life. Stuck like Ulysses on the beautiful dreamy island with Sirens.

It’s not easy to do the work in the correct way, in fact it’s not easy to do anything in the correct way.
You just saying that I was not doing the work correctly. I did what I was told to do and I had the states everyone else is having, but I classified them differently than you. I call them hypnotic states.

“I no longer own a copy of the Fourth Way”
Threw it away when the wind changed? I don’t through away books. I don’t throw away videos and CD’s of Robert’s hypnoses sessions either. So I can debate with you about all the spiritual matters you want. I haven’t forgotten it.

205. Tatyana - November 13, 2009

Afroman

Because I Got High Lyrics

I was gonna clean my room until I got high
I gonna get up and find the broom but then I got high
my room is still messed up and I know why
– cause I got high cause I got high cause I got high

I was gonna go to class before I got high
I coulda cheated and I coulda passed but I got high
I am taking it next semester and I know why
– cause I got high cause I got high cause I got high

I was gonna go to work but then I got high
I just got a new promotion but I got high
now I’m selling dope and I know why
– cause I got high cause I got high cause I got high

I was gonna go to court before I got high
I was gonna pay my child support but then I got high
they took my whole paycheck and I know why
– cause I got high cause I got high cause I got high

I wasnt gonna run from the cops but I was high
I was gonna pull right over and stop but I was high
Now I am a paraplegic – because I got high cause I got high cause I got high

I was gonna pay my car note until I got high
I was gonna gamble on the boat but then I got high
now the tow truck is pulling away and I know why
– because I got high cause I got high cause I got high

I messed up my entire life because I got high
I lost my kids and wife because I got high
now I’m sleeping on the sidewalk and I know why
– cause I got high cause I got high cause I got high

I’m gonna stop singing this song because I’m high
I’m singing this whole thing wrong because I’m high
and if I dont sell one copy I know why
– cause I’m high cause I got high cause I got high

206. Jomo Piñata - November 13, 2009

OCTOBER 28–A Texas middle school teacher used a fictional “secret society” to lure teenage girls in to having sex with him, according to an arrest warrant. Robert rosseau, 37, was arrested Monday by San Antonio cops and charged with aggravated sexual assault of a child. Rosseau, pictured in the mug shot at right, taught “Science, Keyboarding and Bible” at the Christian Academy of San Antonio, according to an arrest warrant affidavit. That document, a copy of which you’ll find below, identifies Rosseau as the “director” of a secret society known as the “Order” that encompassed elements of “Freemasonry, witchcraft, and Christianity,” but which really was a vehicle for underage sex. Cops began investigating Rosseau after a teenage girl told them that two members of Rosseau’s society tried to recruit her into the group, which would have required her to “be ‘intimate’ with the ‘director’ to establish trust.” One victim told investigators that Rosseau quoted Bible passages to “legitimize his believed ability to engage in sexual intercourse” with minors, and that he claimed the order’s rules “authorized” such illicit activity. Rosseau, who was jailed in lieu of $100,000 bail, was fired yesterday from his teaching post. (5 page pdf file)

http://bit.ly/3leUbW

207. Bares Reposting - November 13, 2009

Fourth Way Teacher Manifesto
Copied from Awaken Foundation website:
http://www.awakenfoundation.org/the_teacher_tfw.htm

‘The Teacher

There are certain qualities by which a competent spiritual teacher can be assessed. He will appear to be an ordinary person, who will have earned his own way in the world and successfully managed his personal affairs. He will have his own income, and not be dependent on the donations of others. He will not seek fame or personal recognition.

He will work quietly and unassumingly to serve others – to provide others with the same inner benefits he himself received. He will neither ask nor receive payment for his spiritual services. He will be able to answer questions posed by students and provide inner guidance as necessary.

The Teacher of Awaken Foundation began his spiritual search as a young child and experienced Cosmic Consciousness at the age of twenty. From that time, side by side with his professional career, he continued to meditate and worked to develop himself spiritually.

He relied on guidance from competent spiritual mentors to develop his own inner connection. After many years of meditation and inner work he wound up his worldly responsibilities in order to devote the balance of his life to spiritual service.

He donated most of his personal resources to the foundation in order to purchase its present property in Three Rivers, and went into two years of seclusion and inner spiritual preparation to serve those who feel drawn to his mission.

In the year 2003 he was inwardly advised to come out of seclusion and to accept deeply sincere students who are seeking to Awaken.

The amazing story of the Teacher’s spiritual odyssey, beginning before he was born into a human body and continuing through the time he achieved cosmic consciousness, was given access to the highest spiritual dimensions, explored the creation of this dimension, and received a new revelation for the 21st century can be found in the upcoming book REVELATION: A Journey Into The Mouth Of God – “man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the Mouth of God.”‘

208. Daily Cardiac - November 13, 2009

Tatyana:

Here is are the fanticies I referred to:

131. Tatyana – November 11, 2009

” DC
“And finally, Robert having sex with students is not evidence that the FoF is not a real school. The FoF not producing and promoting Presence would be proof it’s not a real school.”

“If I use your logic, then nothing can be evidence that FOF is not a real school as long as it is producing and promoting Presence. Right? From this point not only Robert having sex with students is not evidence, but even if he was raping them and abusing power wouldn’t be evidence? As long as FOF producing and promoting Presence. Not even a murder would be evidence! Is this what you believe?”

“Not even a murder would be evidence! Is this what you believe?”

How can we talk or surmise about this kind of event when it is so far removed from reality? But I guess since so much else is conjured up by ex members it must seem normal for you to lump any crime that comes into your mind with FoF reality.

209. Tatyana - November 13, 2009

DC
You were asking for reasoning, yet, you do not follow my logic. It is a simple question, why can’t you answer it? Is it a buffer?

210. Tatyana - November 13, 2009

207. Bares Reposting
“He will have his own income, and not be dependent on the donations of others.”
What is a PayPal button at the bottom of that page then?

211. sallymcnally - November 13, 2009

Robert has successfully wiped out any intuitive thinking in many of his ‘older’ students where the logical mind is alive and well.

This very sad state of affairs allows one to agree with just about anything he does, including the continued damaging of students’ emotional and sexual lives.

Throughout history manipulators have used this tool to keep people doing and accepting outrageous behavior in themselves and others.

And God weeps.

212. Mikey - November 13, 2009

Sally/211
I’m working with the idea that God forgives everything but hypocrisy.

213. silentpurr - November 13, 2009

Daily Cardiac( your pseudonym speaks volumes), I apologize for responding superficially to your question.But it did seem that a great deal of useful wisdom had been dedicated to you already by the others.
For myself, as a working artist, I take care my energy and the sources of inspiration to be productive.
-DC, Integrity is not just a word. It is the standard by which we live. It is what allows us to turn away from the lower, darker and ignorant parts in ourselves and humanity. You just can’t see it right now because you are caught. You have already invested so much ………I can now understand why you come here. A conflicted self; a stressed heart. And in your Heart of Hearts you know that Robert Burton is incapable of returning your loyalty, your love. I am sorry for you.

214. Tatyana - November 13, 2009

DC “True Love, which I feel for RB, is ONLY possible from a higher state. And hate is not possible from that same higher state.”

Once I had an experience with anesthesia after a surgery – when I woke up I felt an immense Love towards everyone.
Some effects of anesthesia may last for hours after surgery and make you feel love and affection. It does not take efforts – it is a chemical process. As it does not take any effort to get into the euphoric state at the RB’s dinner.

But, you know you are not supposed to drive or operate heavy machinery after the anesthesia… you know why?

cause you got high…
cause you got high…
cause you got high…

215. James Mclemore - November 13, 2009

206. Jomo Piñata

re: the link to the Texas middle school teacher.

Chilling!!! – and no different really than the methods Burton uses. The biblical readings and the references to the ‘Order’ just gets replaced with Burtons own phony esoteric gobbledygook and C influence. Whether it is 15 year old girls or young men in their twenties the MO is much the same. And then you have what appear to be full grown mature adults like DC who are able to shamelessly justify it. It is just all so sad.
If it was just DC who was lost in cult thinking that would be one thing, and it would still be sad, but when you add the manipulation and emotional and sexual abuse it becomes something so much, much worse, and so much, much uglier.

sallymcnally said, “And God weeps.”

Over time the aiding and abetting and support of Burton by those that surround him becomes deeper and deeper and the guilt by that association, I would think, becomes undeniable.

216. brucelevy - November 13, 2009

212. Mikey

“I’m working with the idea that God forgives everything but hypocrisy.”

“It” thinks that may be wrong work for you goodness (snark).

217. brucelevy - November 13, 2009

DC

“DC “True Love, which I feel for RB, is ONLY possible from a higher state. And hate is not possible from that same higher state.”

You are such a douche.

218. Associated Press - November 14, 2009

Here’s one for Arkansas BoB (AKA Robert Earl Burton, Fellowship of Friends, Pathway to Presence)

Evangelist sentenced to 175 years for sex crimes
Nov 13, 2009
[Not a Friday the Thirteenth joke]
By JON GAMBRELL

TEXARKANA, Ark. (AP) – Evangelist Tony Alamo [sounds like a made up name] used his stature as a self-proclaimed prophet to force underage girls into sham marriages with him, controlling his followers with their fears of eternal suffering.

But the judge who sentenced Alamo on Friday to 175 years in prison for child sexual abuse warned of another kind of justice awaiting the aging evangelist.

“Mr. Alamo, one day you will face a higher and a greater judge than me,” U.S. District Judge Harry F. Barnes told the preacher. “May he have mercy on your soul.”

Barnes leveled the maximum sentence against the 75-year-old, who preyed on followers’ young daughters and took child “brides” as young as age 8. A jury convicted Alamo in July on a 10-count indictment accusing him of taking the girls across state lines for sex.

Alamo, who has made millions through his ministry, also must pay $250,000 in fines. He will return to court for a Jan. 13 hearing at which Barnes will determine if the five women who testified about their sexual abuse will be paid restitution. Federal prosecutors say an expert believes each one should get $2.7 million for the physical and mental abuse they endured.

Barnes said Alamo used his influence as both a father figure and a pastor to force himself upon impressionable girls who feared “the loss of their salvation.”

“You are described by others who testified as a prophet of God, a person of trust, a person of supreme authority in the church,” Barnes said, staring the pale preacher. “It’s hard to imagine the scenario and the damage that occurred to these five young girls.”

Alamo, who had muttered and cursed through his two-week trial, stood silently during the sentencing, dressed in a yellow prison uniform and a blue windbreaker. Before Barnes’ ruling, Alamo told the judge: “I lean on the lord Jesus Christ.”

“I’m glad I’m me and not the deceived people in the world,” the evangelist said.

Alamo’s defense team, which had asked for leniency due to the preacher’s age and poor health, promised to appeal Barnes’ ruling.

FBI agents and Arkansas State Police troopers raided Alamo’s compound in nearby Fouke in September 2008. The FBI arrested Alamo five days later in Flagstaff, Ariz., charging him with violating the Mann Act, a century-old morality law originally aimed at stopping women from being sold into prostitution.

Five women, age 17 to 33, testified in July that Alamo “married” them in private ceremonies while they were minors, sometimes giving them rings. Each detailed trips beyond Arkansas’ borders for Alamo’s sexual gratification.

With little physical evidence, prosecutors relied on the women’s stories to paint an emotional portrait of a charismatic religious leader who controlled every aspect of his subjects’ lives. The women said Alamo ordered beatings or punitive fasts for minor infractions or at the whim of his paranoia.

Defense lawyers said the government targeted Alamo because it disapproves of his apocalyptic brand of Christianity. Alamo never testified at trial, but spoke to Barnes twice during the hearing Friday. He first told the judge he thought his defense team provided him adequate legal help, though he wanted them to harshly cross-examine the women to show “that the people who were testifying against me were lying.”

My lawyers “did prove that I never took girls out of state to have sex with them,” Alamo said.

Three of the five victims spoke in court Friday about how Alamo stole their childhoods and tore apart their families to satisfy his sexual perversions. One woman Alamo took as a child “bride” at age 8 described how she shook uncontrollably when he first molested her.

“You have the audacity to ask for mercy,” the woman said, looking up from her handwritten notes to stare at Alamo. “What mercy did you show us?”

The evangelist’s lawyers pleaded for a lower sentence because of his age and infirmities. They called as witnesses two followers and a doctor, who discussed how Alamo suffered from hypertension, diabetes, obesity and glaucoma. However, Dr. Samuel Berkman acknowledged under cross-examination that he examined Alamo only once in 2004, as the preacher sought an eye lift to look younger.

“There’s no question he’s done a lot of good,” said Don Ervin, a Houston lawyer who led Alamo’s defense, outlining the church’s efforts to reach the poor. “He’s an unusual man and an unusually great man.”

Assistant U.S. Attorney Kyra Jenner said after the hearing that prosecutors would work with the federal prison system to ensure Alamo can’t control his ministry and its many businesses from behind bars. At trial, one of the victims described how Alamo “married” and groped her during a prison visit.

How long Alamo remains an influence depends on whether police or former followers dismantle the ministry through lawsuits and criminal cases. The FBI declined to say Friday whether it had ongoing investigations involving the ministry.

As Alamo left the courthouse, he said he would leave to his church’s future in other hands.

“The Lord is in charge,” the preacher said.

219. Bares Reposting - November 14, 2009

210. Tatyana
‘207. Bares Reposting
“He will have his own income, and not be dependent on the donations of others.”
What is a PayPal button at the bottom of that page then?’

Yes, good question, and the Fellowship of Friends (a.k.a. Pathway to Presence) website does not have a PayPal button. Do you think that either of these 2 organizations has mandatory payments?

220. Tatyana - November 14, 2009

219. Good point.
I checked Pathway to Presence today. wow.
I am wondering if DC did not write for Pathway to Presence website himself. It sounds just like him!

221. brucelevy - November 14, 2009

220. Tatyana

It does sound just like him.

There are a whole bunch of other Pathways to Presence new age thingys. I would guess they’ve already investigated claiming their name in copyright. Lottsa luck with that.

222. brucelevy - November 14, 2009

DC must have claimed the position of talking asshole for the FOF, especially if he is behind the bullshit PR on their site. Fits nicely. Whether he wrote it or not I don’t think I could hold him in lower esteem than I do already. He the perfect mouthpiece. There’s a special ring in hell for him (within his cosmology, not mine).

223. Tatyana - November 14, 2009

I don’t think DC is officially represents FOF here. I think he sincerely believes that he brings the Truth out there and people will recognize the fact that FOF is a real school and join/rejoin/remain. I also think that if RB found out who he is he will be in big trouble.

I begun to feel I know who he is. Let me double check though, I just need to get his book and compare some of his writings here. If he who I think he is – I was wasting my time talking to him.

224. X-ray - November 14, 2009

208. Daily Cardiac – November 13, 2009

‘How can we talk or surmise about this kind of event when it is so far removed from reality? But I guess since so much else is conjured up by ex members it must seem normal for you to lump any crime that comes into your mind with FoF reality.’

Look who is talking about the reality, a deluded motherfucker Burton’s whore.

204
There you go Tatyana, don’t hold yourself back. Daily Crap from Haven is a real 5 star asshole. He shall be promoted to an asshole number 6 for so much bullshit thrown out on the blog.

225. Daily Cardiac - November 14, 2009

Cruching Tiger – 200:

“The kind of magical understanding DC is talking about does not actually exist. It is a fraud. The teachings of Jesus and Mohammed, and all the great teachers of the past, were transmitted by their disciples, those whose understanding was trustworthy. The teachings were handed down from one generation to the next by word of mouth.”

And I guess no one can stage a Shakespeare play today in a meaningful way because they were not in the direct lineage of the Bard.

Or no one can learn writing skills from Hemingway in a class room unless the instructors were directly associated with him.

Or learn painting techniques from Rembrandt by gazing at the paintings on a museum wall.

The inverse is equally true:

You could sit at the feet of a Gurdjieff for 20 years and still completely misconstrue his teachings.

On whether the FoF is a ‘Fourth Way” school:

As far as I know the term “Fourth Way” was coined by Gurdjieff around 1900. Before that the term is not encountered anywhere. The system Gurdjieff passed on to Ouspensky was culled and collated from several sacred traditions.

Today those sacred truths Gurdjieff assembled for his system by visiting secret monasteries, Sufi lairs, are all over the internet.

You could say there is no such thing as a “Fourth Way” school, it’s just a 20th century label. All schools throughout history have had only one purpose. The purpose remains the same and only the form changes.

226. Yesri Baba - November 14, 2009

“And I guess no one can stage a Shakespeare play today in a meaningful way because they were not in the direct lineage of the Bard.

Or no one can learn writing skills from Hemingway in a class room unless the instructors were directly associated with him.

Or learn painting techniques from Rembrandt by gazing at the paintings on a museum wall.”

“The purpose remains the same and only the form changes”

Sure, you can imitate but if you do the form becomes your prison.

The form has to change. It has to become YOUR form because all of those teachings are about YOU.

227. Yesri Baba - November 14, 2009

“There’s a special ring in hell for him (within his cosmology, not mine).”

Silly Bruce, don’t you know it’s Objective? (that’s sarcasm)

(in the future i will be labeling my posts to keep people informed as to what’s going on. Below is the list of options)

Funnies
Sarcasm
Wit
Divine Sacred Objective Truth (will be punctuated with lots of capital letters)
Bullshit (post won’t be labeled-it’s a given)

228. Yesri Baba - November 14, 2009

FUCK! I forgot one-

Negativity

(funnies)

229. ton - November 14, 2009

dc 186

“All premises, understandings, observations, are based on belief. They can be based on beivefing what is true or believing what is not true, but it’s belief nonetheless.”

BINGO… a little light penetrates the armor… so dc, keep your words here in mind while you are laboring over your seemingly ‘well reasoned’ OPINIONS… the process you go through then is simply RATIONALIZING, that is, you are only dreaming up reasons to support your beliefs… it’s your little house of cards.

“I don’t imagine I love him, I do love him. He’s given me the ultimate gift, myself. It would be mindbogglingly callous of me not to love him.”

what’s truly mind-boggling is the twisted belief that someone else can give you your self… that thought process can only proceed from someone who does not have a sense of self in the first place and so searches for an ‘authority figure’ to provide what is lacking. the irony is that relying on this ‘authority figure’ is only confirming and supporting the original deficient sense of self… at the same time, reliance on an outside ‘authority figure’ (a ‘guru’) to confirm one’s self (based on an erroneous notion that someone else is able to give ‘the ultimate gift’ ie the self… that’s the scam, the con, that someone else can give you what you already have… and you continue to buy it… hook, line and stinker)… this reliance on an outside agent (read: guru) for the sense of self, keeps the devotee in the thrall and dependent on ‘the teacher’ for what can be described as a counterfeit sense of identity… it’s not authentic because it is conditional… but to each their own. (dc did you buy this book yet? it’s not light reading but it would definitely help you to understand a bit more about the self that has you so confused, i.e. your self: http://www.amazon.com/Affect-Regulation-Origin-Self-Neurobiology/dp/0805834591 ).

as for the nonsense about ‘true love’ only being possible from a ‘higher state’ — that’s the way you want to spin it, that’s your rationale for drinking the kool-aide… so you ARE in love with your ‘teacher’ thank you for admitting… so by your own admission you are flying blind and ‘working on incomplete and skewed information.’ know thyself.

“But whatever it is it’s not of the garden variety, and you are well aware of that; so don’t be so disingenuous.”

dc, in my previous post i provided a link to a lengthy list of cults… did you look that over? your burton assram is included there… the point is that each and everyone who is involved in their little cult thinks the same thing, that because of their affiliation with their particular cult it means they are ‘special’ and one of the chosen few… i know because i’ve been there done that…. how dare you call ME disingenuous… you go to the mirror and say that word over and again until it penetrates the thick skull of that ghost you see…

230. Crouching Tiger - November 14, 2009

DC.

“…Or no one can learn writing skills from Hemingway in a class room unless the instructors were directly associated with him.

Or learn painting techniques from Rembrandt by gazing at the paintings on a museum wall.”

Don’ t be such a stupid clod.

Sure they could learn something, but what they would learn is random, just like the kind of learning that comes from reading In Search of the Miraculous. One thing appeals, another doesn’t. There is much guesswork and interpretation.

The essence of every living teaching [the ‘how to work’] is passed down through living disciples of a living teacher. That is a given. Jesus, Mohammed, Gurdjieff, Nisargadatta etc.. were all part of a continuous living tradition. They all had a teacher, or teachers.

Burton was never connected to a teacher, 4th Way or otherwise. Doubtless he considered it beneath his lofty status to submit himself to learn from anyone else. So EVERYTHING in his ‘school’ is either homespun interpretation of what he picked up from Horn or from reading material second-hand. The ‘how to work’ is grotesquely twisted in his version.

Burton’s teaching carries on by approximation and guesswork, just like your attempts to justify it. It’s palpably obvious by now that you have absolutely no standard of comparison for your ‘work’ in the fellowship. That is all you know, so you keep on comparing it to… itself! You don’t have any outside point of reference so you keep on bouncing up and down on the same spot.

“You could sit at the feet of a Gurdjieff for 20 years and still completely misconstrue his teachings.”

Well, you could in a Burton school, because he’d be happy to keep taking your money regardless of whether you were learning anything at all. I doubt the same is true of Gurdjieff, because he tended to kick out people who misconstrued things habitually in pretty short order.

231. Mikey - November 14, 2009

Bruce/216
Look who’s talking about wrong work.
“If at first you don’t suc-ceed, try until you do suc-ceed”.
God spoke to me:
‘It is difficult but not impossible, so go ahead & try, you putz, otherwise….’

232. Ill Never Tell - November 14, 2009

231. Mikey:
‘“If at first you don’t suc-ceed, try until you do suc-ceed”.’

You got it almost right. It should read: If at first you don’t suck seed, try until you do suck seed. Remember, please, teacher is not a mother fucker; teacher is a cock sucker. It’s really important to learn those lessons; it’s the oral tradition with direct lineage to the source.

233. nige - November 14, 2009

214 Tatyana

And, sometimes, when the dopamine floods get too pronounced, you become ‘a danger to yourself or others’ (i.e. sectionable in a lunatic asylum). Ask yourself – “Do you want to make contact with Higher Centres and can you handle that?”…..Nigel.

234. nige - November 14, 2009

225 Daily Cardiac

And, since I have Shakespeare and Whitman ‘close at hand in my play’, you should be aware that “we shall in France play such a match, shall strike his father’s (REB’s) crown into the hazard”. Just so that you should be also aware, if you send me your PO Box Address to nhprice@gmail.com, I will send you a Chrissie Pressie of magnitude about whom C-influence represents on Earth…..Nigel.

235. James Mclemore - November 14, 2009

From reading DC over these last several days, and from reading the posts from everyone who have pointed out almost every single thing that could possibly be pointed out to him, coming from every different point of view under the sun, I have come to the semi-conclusion that a person is either in a cult or they are not in a cult. I suppose if we look back we can see this because at one time or another we took the bait and swallowed the hook, line and sinker, and before we had begun the regurgitation process no one probably could have told us anything.

We may be able to keep new people from joining, and there will be those that may be at some stage of fence sitting or at least perhaps walk over to look at the fence once in a while that we can evidently have some effect on. We may be able to give a little help to those folks, but even then I think it is only because they have already made at least a slight movement of some sort within themselves to honestly re-look at the situation. DC appears to be buried so deeply that it will take something much more powerful than words to jerk at least the ‘sinker’ back up into his throat that will produce the necessary discomfort and cause him to begin wondering what the hell all that line and that hook are doing inside of him. The feelings of ‘specialness’ that surround him like a cocoon are almost palpable from between the words that he writes. It is as if you can sense some level of decay of the human spirit that may have already taken place. It is almost physically nauseating at times.

236. James Mclemore - November 14, 2009

DC has made statements in a couple of places as to ‘consciousness’ being something that one person can have and can then transfer to another. As ‘ton’ just pointed out, DC thinks that the ‘self’ can be given to someone by another person. He has said that there is something outside of himself than can ‘impose its will’ on him. Whalerider pointed out that DC seems to think ‘the spirit world’ is outside of and beyond him. These seem to be the statements of a person who has completely projected everything valuable and sacred about himself onto either another person or onto an imaginary world outside of himself that he is not connected to except in some strange and fanciful manner. He seems to think that a ‘spiritual discussion’ would be about these things that are outside of himself.

237. silentpurr - November 14, 2009

I just looked at “Pathways to Presence”. A beautiful allurement! And Like RB, “fine clothes doth not a gentleman make”.

238. Jomo Piñata - November 14, 2009

Lacuna Piñata/151, responding to Jomo Piñata:

But there are several obstacles in the way of our “meeting of the minds.” For one thing, you being intellectually centered,

Because I can string two good thoughts together, or three or four, I guess that makes me intellectually centered. I guess that makes anyone who can take a good dump instinctively centered, and anyone who can rebuild a carburetor or successfully utilize a map must be moving centered. Don’t it just feel so good to pigeonhole people. That’ll show them!

There is a good story involving Joe Pyne, a television show host with an ascerbic, combative style which some attributed to his having lost a leg, and Frank Zappa. Zappa wore his hair quite long, which was still socially novel in the mid-1960s when this was said to have occurred. Pyne reputedly opened the Zappa interview with the comment, “I guess your long hair makes you a girl,” to which Zappa responded, “I guess your wooden leg makes you a table.”

you like to quote main stream psychology and it’s theories, studies, block buster books, etc. and I find it an extremely limiting genre, although it has its place for the masses.

For a guy who didn’t go to college, you sure have some attitudes about the masses, Lacuna Piñata. Maybe you took some courses for awhile, I don’t know. But you never learned to think, so you use ideas in a very approximate way. From the comment you make here, it seems to me you have read but little. I guess books offer but an “extremely limiting” set of ideas to you. Or at any rate someone has modeled that attitude, and somehow you’ve picked up on it. Bad idea.

If you knew what treasure lay between your ears you would spit on people who denigrate the power of reading to change lives.

The chief problem with main stream psychology is that the psychologists who preside over it don’t know that they are as flawed and out of balance as those they study (i. e. asleep.)

Again, this is something someone has told you. You don’t care if it’s true or not. Someone has told you this and you take it as a justification for lack of effort or even to smother incipient intellectual curiosity. The fact is, you don’t know if it’s true, because you’ve never read the books I’ve quoted and you have some distorted notion that you call “main stream psychology.” Admit it, man. You have no idea what you’re talking about, but you are pretending that you do. Isn’t that the “lying” Ouspensky describes as an obstacle to what he called “awakening”?

239. James Mclemore - November 15, 2009

238. Jomo Piñata

Potent appraisal Jomo.

How strange……..
All of those words that he uses and yet it appears he can no longer ‘think’.

240. Opus 111 - November 15, 2009

I would not waste your time trying to prove FOF is a 4th way school, your leader has intentionally dismissed that idea a long time ago. It is Robert Burton’s now. He has already intimated that he is far beyond those 2 douches Gurdjeff and Ouspensky, only second to Christ,. His “gift ” to humanity is the sequence, the device that trups all others.

Interstingly, as you know, Robert Burton’ intellect is bare. He thinks and speaks vicariously, through others. He has almost no original thoughts. When he tries, the absurdity of his utterances boggles the mind (counting the rhino poops to set the claim that prehistoric man was using the sequence is afamous example). As long as he was relying on the 4th way”, he was relying on a system of ideas with structure, cohesion (debatable) and appeal to those who join FOF. Moreover, those ideas were bounced around by his members and the illusion of a school was created. When Robert Burton decided to free lance, the intellectual content of “meetings” (they were always choreographed performances) went down by 2 or 3 order of magnitude. I remember coming out of those meetings dumfounded (maybe that was the idea!).

So, no, current FOF has nothing to do with the 4th way tradition, it has everyting to do with Robert Burton. Yikes!

241. 411 - November 15, 2009

I guess I should thank DC for writing here. He is clearly showing me the mindset that I used to have.

Doesn’t he realize that when I was an active member of the Pathway To Presence I experienced friends leaving the Fellowship and asked myself why someone would leave? I used to ponder why people left and would think that they must have “lost their verifications”. There was no blog up until three years ago. When somebody left the fellowship it was as if they had died. They just didn’t exist. Talking to them after they left was basically “casting pearls before swine”.

When you are hell-bent on accepting your situation, no matter how many people tell you you’re wrong it doesn’t matter. It only seems to reinforce your position. Trying to explain to DC all the flaws in his logic will NEVER penetrate his belief system. The current members of the FOF want to live in their bubble.

IMO there are no conscious beings. There are no angels hovering around the room. There is no C influence, but the die-hards will attribute all of those ideas to just about anything that happens in their life.

242. Old Coyote - November 15, 2009

FELLOW$HIP OF FRIEND$ or PATHWAY$ to PRE$ENCE)

Hey, Y’all!

‘DC appears to be buried so deeply that it will take something much more powerful than words to jerk at least the ’sinker’ back up into his throat that will produce the necessary discomfort and cause him to begin wondering what the hell all that line and that hook are doing inside of him.’

I’m afraid Mclemore is right, folks!
Y’all are wastin yer time on that old DC!
I say FERGIT IT or HIM/HER whatever the hell IT IS!

$ O $

FOFers: Git the women and children out first-afore the $hip $inks!!!

And if YOU reading this here blog-a-rama are checking out
the ride on this old school bus they call THE FELLOW$HIP or
THE PATHWAY$ or whatever ya think y’all found- FERGIT IT!!!

Plain and $imple Folks – its Plain and $imple –

YOU will find yourself burnin your $$$$$ fer NO GOOD CAUSE.

Don’t ya believe that B.S. about 10% and think ‘Hell, its like payin
a normal church tithe. Because you will pay and pay and pay an trust ME– fer some of you its gonna HURT a lot more than the
old wallet……yep – Welcome to Penis-ville, Folks!!!

‘GIT BACK JACK!’, thats what YOU’ll be sayin to Old Lady Burton.

(Old Lady Burton = the Captain of the $inkin $hip, if ya didn’t git it)

Brought to you by Old Coyote — He Know$

$ O $

243. WonderingWhosWatching - November 15, 2009

Close Encounters:
First Kind: Sighting
Second Kind: Evidence
Third Kind: Contact
Fourth Kind: Abduction

If you have reason to believe that: higher forces, celestial beings, and/or aliens: 1) have been sighted, 2) there is evidence they visited, 3) you have had contact with them, and/or, especially, 4) they have abducted you or someone you know; you may have had a Close Encounter of the Fourth Kind, also known as joining the Fellowship of Friends (a.k.a.: Fourth Way School, Gurdjieff Ouspensky School, Via del Sol, Pathway to Presence, Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, etc.). Please report your experiences to the nearest Federal Bureau of Investigation and/or Homeland Security Office.

‘It’s O.K., you are with an angel now.’
Robert Earl Burton
‘Brightest light in 2000 years.’
Robert Earl Burton

Fear or adore them.

Adult Abductions:
The Fourth Kind –
Dr. Tyler Tries To
Remember Her Abduction: 1:14:

244. WonderingWhosWatching - November 15, 2009

Child Abductions:
The Fourth Kind –
Dr. Tyler’s Baby Is Abducted: 1:08:

245. WonderingWhosWatching - November 15, 2009

Hypnosis:
The Fourth Kind –
Dr Tyler Is Put Under Hypnosis: 1:00:

246. WonderingWhosWatching - November 15, 2009

See your own version of
Close Encounter of a Fourth Kind:
Abduction: 6:42:

247. WonderingWhosWatching - November 15, 2009

Haven’t had enough yet?: 7:35:

248. WonderingWhosWatching - November 15, 2009

Eternal vigilance
is the price of freedom.
Thomas Jefferson

Don’t have your
Close Encounter
of a Fourth Kind!

The Fourth Kind –
Theatrical Trailer 2:32:

249. Yesri Baba - November 15, 2009

250. Someone - November 15, 2009

Just dropped by for a short visit.

Eventually one person (DC) has subdued almost everyone else here. 75% of the posts are dialogs with DC.

The above videos are pathetic. It is below the level of a bad Soap Opera.

I recognize some downsides of the FoF, but no one has ever abused me or instructed me to do things against my own will.

I was disappointed that no one has ever suggested that I go out and take care of my finances. Most members around me have taken responsibility for their lives and went out to work or study and managed to raise their standard of living. I have been quite lazy and blind to my situation.

I left the FoF real broke with almost nothing in my wallet. Now after I have recovered, I still think the FoF has a lot to offer esoterically.

If one can make a decent living, one can find Apollo as a great place to live, surrounded by wonderful people.

I have no intentions to go back, yet I absolutely do not share the massive, extremely exaggerated attacks on the FoF.

251. ton - November 15, 2009

25o someone,
thanks for making it a short visit… you write:

“If one can make a decent living, one can find Apollo as a great place to live, surrounded by wonderful people.”

i don’t now about ‘wonderful’ people… everyone has their idea about what constitutes a ‘wonderful’ person… probably in most cases that has to do with commonalities, you tend to be more sympathetic toward people who share your beliefs and opinions… you tend to be more antipathetic and oppositional toward those who you view as ‘different.’ it might be said that almost all people have their ‘good’ AND their ‘bad’ qualities; i think many people join the fof with some ‘good’ intentions… many are looking for community and a place where they feel they ‘belong.’ but some of the so-called ‘wonderful’ people there are entrenched in the darker machinations and actually constitute a large part of the problem… there are problems. it seems obvious from this post that you are or were looking for community, it’s a very human need and i think many people who are drawn into the fof web are/were also looking for community, i know i was. in this respect imo your statement:

“I still think the FoF has a lot to offer esoterically…”

is beside the point. with hindsight i realize that the sense of community was the most important part of the fof experience for me and that sense of belonging was the thing that kept me in the fold long beyond the time when i initially realized what the scam was all about. so don’t fool yourself about what is offered ‘esoterically’ — unless of course you are not aware of the basic human need for community, in which case an aspect of the truth remains ‘occluded’ for you…

you mention ‘pathetic’ posts, imo one thing that’s ‘pathetic’ is your attitude as it’s reflected here…. as far as the fof goes, members and ex-members alike are all in a minor way ‘little eichmanns’ and maybe your conscience allows you to ignore what you supported and contributed to as a member of the fof… or maybe you remain blissfully unaware… it sounds like for you the fof was nothing more than a country club with ‘esoteric’ window-dressing. differing perspectives on what supporting the fof implies are expected but from my point of view you seem to be in denial and ignoring somethings that need a deeper personal reflection and reckoning. speaking of pathetic, you write:

“Eventually one person (DC) has subdued almost everyone else here. 75% of the posts are dialogs with DC.”

maybe english is not your native language but in any case you seem to misunderstand and misuse the word ‘subdue’ — posts by dc tend to incite other posters (granted others who are too revolted or dumbfounded by this dumbfuck dc might be subdued and remain lurking on the sidelines). there is something to be said FOR fof apologists in that they reflect the psychology of the cult while at the same time stimulating others to reflect, formulate and debate based on their own experience. from it’s inception one aspect of this blog has been about the repartee between apologists/defenders and those who view the matter differently… it seems that you would fall into the former category.

you write: “I left the FoF real broke with almost nothing in my wallet. Now after I have recovered, I still think the FoF has a lot to offer esoterically.”

let’s look at the term ‘esoteric’ — 1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric allusions. 2. belonging to the select few. 3. private; secret; confidential. 4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be revealed only to the initiates of a group: etc.

the notion that you as a member of the fof were privy to ‘secret knowledge’ made you feel (and maybe still makes you feel) as if you were ‘special’ and one of the ‘chosen few’ selected out of the billions of people on the planet as an ‘initiate’ to (potentially) ‘awaken.’ this erroneous notion is promoted and fostered by the fof as an integral part of it’s lure and allure, this notion appeals to a person’s vanity and false-pride, it’s one of the primary tools of the subtle and not so subtle mechanisms of psychological control over the ‘flock.’ your affiliation with the fof sets you apart alright, but not in the way you are lead to believe… this idea is intentionally misleading and serves no other purpose than to keep the followers in thrall… as a member you are lead to believe that by studying and following ‘the system’ (read:burtonism), an arcane, insane ‘doctrine’ consisting of a set of bizarre beliefs, that your adherence will lead to a ‘promised land’ an imaginary far away place which may yet be ‘lifetimes’ away… through abiding belief the ‘good student’ is kept in the fold, all the while busy building their own personal mental prison through endless and ceaseless repetitions of ‘sequences’ and other ‘exercises.’ the real hidden agenda in the fof, the truly ‘esoteric’ aspects have to do with the scam that’s being perpetrated and the purpose behind it… that being in large part, feeding of the insatiable appetites and extravagant lifestyle of the cankerous queen around which the whole thing revolves. as for the ‘esoteric’ doctrine of the fof, you can glean more true wisdom and insight into human nature by cracking open almost any ‘mainstream’ psychology text book.

‘someone’ — you write:

“I left the FoF real broke with almost nothing in my wallet…”

in spite of the fact that you were admittedly ‘fleeced’ by burton , you choose to look at the experience as positive…. good for you. but i think you are still under the influence… you write:

“no one has ever abused me or instructed me to do things against my own will.”

this implies that you don’t realize or care to see what exactly you were supporting through your membership and payments… you don’t realize that your very trust was abused through your affiliation, that by conforming to suggestions, and mindlessly paying up your hard earned dollars, you were as it turns out, on a subtle level doing things against your will… i’m surprised you can’t see that with hindsight… i guess it’s not always 20/20. you still want to see your association with the fof as something of value and maybe as a life experience it is valuable, but that must imply you have learned something of value…. and i’m not talking about the learning of ‘esoteric doctrines’ — that’s a lot of hogwash and window-dressing designed to obfuscate and occlude what’s really going on…. true insight doesn’t come from all the surface nonsense and obfuscation that’s trotted out in the form of fof doctrine… what’s beneath the appearances and between the lines? you don’t seem to get it yet… how long have you been out anyway?

252. X-ray - November 16, 2009

250. Someone – November 15, 2009

‘I left the FoF real broke with almost nothing in my wallet. Now after I have recovered, I still think the FoF has a lot to offer esoterically.’

‘I have no intentions to go back, yet I absolutely do not share the massive, extremely exaggerated attacks on the FoF.’

‘FoF has a lot to offer esoterically’ and ‘extremely exaggerated attacks’?

You are an idiot, Someone, just like a Daily Crap.

253. Ill Never Tell - November 16, 2009

251. ton & 252. X-ray:
Go easy on debauched Someone, please:
‘The poor monster’s my subject and he shall not suffer indignity.*’

* Tempest, Shakespeare, Stephano speaking of Caliban.

250. Someone:
‘The above videos are pathetic. It is below the level of a bad Soap Opera.’

From what you have stated in this last post, you, and your life, is a Soap Opera and a poor one at that.

‘If one can make a decent living, one can find Apollo as a great place to live, surrounded by wonderful people.’

The language of this one sentence, for example, shows that you are still brain washed by the cult. You should rejoin the Fellowship of Fiends (also know as: Pathway to Presence).

And, thanks for making your visit short – just what we don’t need here – another ignoramus** like DC. Thank you. You’re welcome.

** Read about the play: Ignoramus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoramus

And, BTW, what valuable contribution have you ever made to this Fellowship of Fiends (also know as: Pathway to Presence) blog wake experience we are having?

254. Golden Veil - November 16, 2009

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

It is only a matter of time, Ladies and Gentlemen.

Everyone will ‘graduate’ from ‘The School’ sooner or later.

I have faith that even Daily Cardiac will eventually see the light.

I do not think that Robert Burton ever will, though. It’s his hell.

It takes time, doesn’t it, to wake up? After sleeping so deeply…

Remember the ‘Students’ who were excommunicated?

They were the fortunate ones. They ended up in an accelerated

program and matriculated immediately!

It takes time to recover from the repression and control;

and to give up the beautiful fantasies one has created.

How ironic that one must wake up from sleep in a school that

purports itself to be teaching the art of Being Present [awake].

“Life is a process of becoming, a combination of states we have to go through. Where people fail is that they wish to elect a state and remain in it. This is a kind of death.”

[Anais Nin]

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

255. Mikey - November 16, 2009

There you have it folks!
At least two anonymous kiss-ass hypocrites have submitted their unsolicited endorsement, support and appreciation for the holier-than-thou school of Robert Burton.
Game over.
PS (for those who hate definitions) hypocrisy: n. pretense of virtue, benevolence or religious devotion.

256. Ames Gilbert - November 16, 2009

Some people don’t see any value in engaging with the likes of Daily Cardiac. I have to disagree. I can understand it being tiring for any one individual to keep at it (thanks Jomo, Ton and others for keeping at it nevertheless!). I can understand that some individuals see no good for them personally. But, stepping back a bit, looking at DCs words as a whole, he states the FoF positions quite well. So, if anyone wants an overview and examples of fairly standard FoF thinking, he provides it. The great thing is that the flaws are so obvious, the reasoning so circular, the ideas (really, ideology) so shallow, that someone landing here in a quest to understand the FoF must be immediately struck by these weaknesses. Especially when people like Jomo point them out so clearly. So I think he is doing anyone who might be thinking of joining the FoF a big favor, showing them the level of an obviously “older student”, another fruit of Burton’s ‘teaching’.

Related to this, I have purchased some indexing software, and intend to start indexing this blog. This will be a rather long project, since first I have to learn the subtle art of indexing; there is no such thing as automatic indexing software, just software that helps eliminate some of the drudgework. I expect the project to take a year or more. Once the first index has been done, the software will make it fairly easy to keep up to date. The index will be a MS Word document which I will host on my own existing business website. If the moderator agrees, there will be a link in the preamble at the top of each blog page. One main author entry will obviously be “Daily Cardiac”, and the curious will be able to easily find all his posts to date. The value I see is that, rather like Girard Haven’s series of books, all the entries together make the case for the Fellowship of Friends, as proposed by an ‘advanced’ or ‘older’ student/follower. And the curious will be able to apply whatever tools of reasoning they may have acquired, in the context of whatever experience they may have accumulated, and make judgments accordingly. IMO, DC is a true and accurate representative of the Fellowship, and the belief system of long–term members. He is a fundamentalist, and his religion is Burtonism.

257. Ames Gilbert - November 16, 2009

Someone,
from one point of view, the ‘revealed teachings’ of Burton are indeed ‘esoteric’, if you define esoteric as hidden and not generally available to the unwashed masses. But that doesn’t give them value. Tell me, what is the use of information like Burton being a 900–million year old goddess, or all his (invariably wrong) predictions, or claims about ‘schools’ existing 150,000 years ago, or 44 ‘astral bodies of conscious beings’ taking a particular and exclusive interest in anyone who could write a check to him, or that Christ never laughed, or the rest of the rubbish? Sure, this is hidden from most of humanity, and you were one of the lucky few who got to hear of this rubbish. So now you feel special? It just proves you have no discrimination, that’s all.

The information about the value of being present is freely available and always has been. I heard about Gurdjieff and self-remembering and how to practice it in London years before I met the FoF, and the guy (who had been a Zen monk for 20 years) didn’t charge me for it. What did Burton do but get in the way (at great expense to you in time and money), when all is said and done? So, you got to be with others who acted as ‘alarm clocks’ for each other. That may have value theoretically, but any advantage is more than lost when you consider the payment is to normalize the psychological weaknesses of you and your fellow ‘students’ and the bizarre and harmful crimes of the leadership. Most of your ‘efforts’ went to trying to justify the unjustifiable and calming your reactions and those of your companions in the Fellowship of Illusions. What a waste!

258. Golden Veil - November 16, 2009

*

Well stated, Ames. And I think an index would be great!

Funny that you say that Daily Cardiac is an older ‘Student’…he sounds so naive to me. I am sure that you know better, though.

It sounds as though some people think that Girard Haven is Daily Cardiac. They say he has written a number of books that sound like Daily Cardiac. Well, I haven’t seen any of his books, but he couldn’t write as badly as Daily Cardiac, could he?

From what I remember of Girard Haven, he could be the ‘The Teacher’ Robert Burton’s designated inheritor of the “Fellowship of Friend$ (I like your $ signs Old Coyote) twisted throne. As the the key person of this crazy corporation surely Robert Burton has made plans incase he has a heart attack or something. In fact, maybe Daily Cardiac is the great pretender…?!

By the way, when I say graduate from the ‘School”…everyone knows that Robert Burton does not have a graduation in his program.
He needs the funds and the ‘Students’ to perpetuate his perverted mini-kingdom. When I say graduate, I mean leave the sleepy little demented domain and its catatonic ‘Centres’ to their spiritual tomfooleries and just plain leave.

I feel sorry for the ‘Students’ like Daily Cardiac and ex ‘Students’ like Someone. Everyone will leave eventually. But it won’t be easy for them, though. As I said above,

“It takes time to recover from the repression and control;

and to give up the beautiful fantasies one has created.

How ironic that one must wake up from sleep in a school that

purports itself to be teaching the Art of Being Present [awake].”

Lisa

*

“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one’s courage.”

[Anais Nin]

*

259. Golden Veil - November 16, 2009

*

Worldwide cult leader Reverend Moon says that people
who are not part of his organization “will be digested.”

Food for the moon?!

See also this video from the History Channel on cults.
It defines the characteristic cult traits shared by the
Fellowship of Friends, aka Pathways to Presence,
aka The Art of Being Present.

*

260. nige - November 17, 2009

Copied and pasted from The Public Square blog…..

245. nige – November 17, 2009

Hi Elena

I will try to get that book – Saints and Madmen. Sounds great!

But, funnily enough, I was thinking about sex today…..

Sex, Self, Sun….

Maybe you have been thinking along the same lines. Burton, I am sure, has crystallised as almost a teenage homosexual pervert. He is totally addicted to his ‘boys’ and his insanity can only get worse. I do not have an active sex life (for God’s sake, I am a single heterosexual male over 50 years of age who has to take ‘downers’) but have what I would consider a mature attitude to all the women in my life (I feel I have separated emotionally and mentally from Kate and still admire her femininity and desire to become a wonderful elementary school teacher – time will tell, and also my working with the situation, whether we can have a good friendship). There are regularly over 20 ladies of ages from early 20’s to over 60’s and of all body types and centres of gravity and only four men in my Academy – one Solar/Venus/Mercury, 10 of Spades, two Mercury/Saturns, King of Spades and one Jack of Hearts Jovial/Lunar. There are two classes I teach which are attended by all women and the emotional atmosphere is so enriching. I do not command – I blend and bond. Some of the ladies are very pretty and physically enticing but I have never made any sort of sexual advances towards any of them. It is almost like a kind of satelliteing tantric sex condition that prevails. I sense my masculinity among them, but it just seems to make my sense of Separate Selfhood Giving stronger. It is something you could try in some of your situations. I am not sure whether something like that could be experienced out of an artistically creative environment – I have doubts about the ‘corporate world’ – too false and depending on the extremity of our strained civilisation. You see – Burton does not experience sex – he kills it and preys upon it. NO RESPECT. I have said it many times before – BURTON IS THE ANTI-CHRIST, THE KILLER OF HUMANITY, THE BRINGER OF DEATH…..EVERYTHING WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE PURPORTS TO BE…..Nigel.

261. Daily Cardiac - November 17, 2009

Crouching Tiger – 230:

DC – 225: You could sit at the feet of a Gurdjieff for 20 years and still completely misconstrue his teachings.

CT – 230:
” Well, you could in a Burton school, because he’d be happy to keep taking your money regardless of whether you were learning anything at all. I doubt the same is true of Gurdjieff, because he tended to kick out people who misconstrued things habitually in pretty short order.”

Don’ t be such a stupid clod.

Sure they could learn something, but what they would learn is random, just like the kind of learning that comes from reading In Search of the Miraculous. One thing appeals, another doesn’t. There is much guesswork and interpretation.”

First of all you are talking about how important it is to get things first hand and you are then speculating how Gurdjieff related to those in his group as if you were there and could know such things.

But more importantly you have not really said much of anything. I think calling me a stupid clod is a typical posturing ploy when one has little of the real to back up ones’ assertions.

If Gurdjieff did not think anyone could absorb his teaching from books he would not have dedicated so much of his time insuring his knowledge and understandings were preserved in print.

Not to mention that every classroom or learning /instruction situation verifies that different individuals can be exposed to the same instruction, teachings, and some get it and others don’t, some excel and others struggle.

It goes without saying that just because someone sits at Gurdjieff’s feet does not alone guarantee anything. Likewise any motivated aspirant could absorb all there is to adsorb through books written by Gurdieff if they brought the right understanding and being to those works.

Jomo Piñata – 238:

“Because I can string two good thoughts together, or three or four, I guess that makes me intellectually centered.”

That wouldn’t do it, I can do that and I’m not intellectually centered.
(You would probably dispute my ability to string two good thoughts together though)

Your posts often include a lot of mental gymnastics when you are developing you own points and they more often include wordy outside references from journals, books, dictionaries, etc.to support your positions. Both of these tendencies point to an intellectual orientation.

Also, your posts are almost devoid of emotional experiences / information. I see little moving / instinctive references, except when you are being sarcastic ( “I guess that makes anyone who can take a good dump instinctively centered, and anyone who can rebuild a carburetor or successfully utilize a map must be moving centered”).

Also your swipe about me not going to college shows a certain valuation of academia. By the way, if someone can’t put a few good thoughts together by the time they reach university level I doubt any college courses will help them much.

262. James Mclemore - November 17, 2009

Thanks Golden Veil –

Just watched that entire History Channel documentary on cults. The parallels with Burton in so many different places are just startling and undeniable. Each story was different and yet some themes just kept re-appearing. The abusive and painful childhoods of Jim Jones and David Koresh and Charles Manson. I have heard that Burton’s was also painful. The stories of each having his compound or little kingdom where they reign and where the hidden agendas get carried out; which in Warren Jeffs and Burton’s case, and partly for David Koresh, seem to have been sex. For some of the others it was more delusions of grandeur and about power and control which also sounded very familiar. The strings of prophecies, especially of the ‘end times’ and cataclysmic sort where it will then be shown that these cult leaders are the Christ of the age, and that their little ‘compounds’ will survive because they hold the only true religious truth. The degradation of women in subtle, and in some cases, ways not subtle but in fact barbaric. A large number of the females that have posted here on the blog have cited a number of things that pointed toward Burton’s own damaged relationship with the female gender, which had the effect of turning women into second class citizens of the fof, or worse. The narcissism themes that run throughout all of them without exception. David Koresh’s trip to Israel where he ‘ascended into the heavens’ reminded me of RB’s ’76 crystallization. Jones, Koresh, Jeffs, and RB all sold/sell the idea that the sex with them is what God or Higher Forces wish them to do. The paranoia and the seeking for power and money were there in all of them. A part of the paranoia always seemed to be where it sees any opposition as proof that they are the ‘savior of this age’ and that the outside world will revile and try to get them and certainly will not understand how important or advanced that they are. There was that odd reasoning behind why more people did not leave even after suspecting that something was wrong with Jones and Koresh, and where they would overlook and justify what they knew to be wrong, because they still wished to believe that the truth was there, and that good things had come from it; and of course that always difficult part where no one wishes to finally fess up to themselves of the fact that they have been fooled or were mistaken.

If I remember correctly one of the cult specialists that they interviewed said that that it was thought that these cult leaders almost all scored at least 8 out of 9 of the traits that described a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. When that list was posted on the blog a few weeks back, it seemed pretty obvious that our boy Bobby aced that test and scored a remarkable 9 for 9.

263. peter - November 17, 2009

“I left the FOF in 1998 because I knew by then that it was just another cult. Nothing more an nothing less.”

“It was one of the best decisions I ever made.”

“You can go your own way, you can trust yourself, you can trust God.”

“You be fine without R.E. Burton, G. Haven telling you what to do, what to feel and what to think.”

“When you leave them you don’t go ‘out’ of anything real.”

“You step ‘into’ you’re own faith”

“You become free ones again.”

“A free man …”

264. Crouching Tiger - November 17, 2009

DC.

It’s a very plain and simple equation we are talking about here. It’s the transmission of a teaching by word of mouth to continue a living tradition. It’s not a case of me speculating about what someone in Gurdjieff’s group received from the experience. It’s about the fact that G. trusted certain individuals to continue his work in another generation. This is true of all spiritual teachers, they trust living human beings to carry forward the teaching, not books. Their legacy is judged from the quality of the human beings in whom the teaching is embedded. The real meaning of Jesus’ teaching can only be approximated from a reading of the New Testament.

What you see and read in ISOTM is something designed to stimulate people [mostly Europeans or of European descent] to follow a certain set of interests in themselves. It’s nothing more than bait, although there have been any number of people, like Burton, who have hooked on to it (and the other workbooks) as a ‘teaching system’ and tried to use it as such – usually with disastrous results.

When you say “Not to mention that every classroom or learning instruction situation verifies that different individuals can be exposed to the same instruction, teachings, and some get it and others don’t, some excel and others struggle” – you are talking about oral teaching. Teaching with a real teacher and real students in a real environment, not reading a book! If the teacher wants his work to continue after he’s gone, would he entrust it to a student who’s never been in the class? To someone who imagines he has the being to understand everything, having applied himself diligently to…nothing?

The fact remains that Burton never connected with a teacher or a teaching beyond the second-hand experience of hearsay or reading. At this point you make the magical connection that somehow he had the being to understand it all from these sources, even though Gurdjieff himself expressly says that it is “impossible to travel the path of self-development following the chance instruction of chance people or the kind of information culled from conversational talk or reading”.

All your assertions depend on blind faith in Burton and the being you imagine he is, and you’re prepared to sacrifice thousands of years of historical proof about the way spiritual teachings evolve on that altar.

Your refusal to accept any evidence that would undermine your faith in Burton is the single most pressing reason [by far] that limits your conversation with any of the people here. You object to anyone who believed in Burton and then had a concrete experience that shattered that belief, and you object to anyone [like myself] who points out the obvious holes in Burton’s claimed lineage as a 4th Way teacher. Somehow in your eyes, this has become our failure, not his.

This is not sound thinking, and it shows you have your faith invested in the wrong place. It is not verification, it is speculation – and its your own future you’re playing with.

265. Crouching Tiger - November 17, 2009

The fundamentals of the situation, which all prospective, newer or older students need to be aware of:

1. “I believe in Burtonism”. You are joining, or staying in, an organisation without any observable connection to any other spiritual tradition – although it will appropriate those traditions through guesswork and approximation.

2. “I believe in Robert Burton”. You are choosing to believe in a teacher who was never observably taught by anyone else.

3. “I consent to the use of sex between teacher and student as a teaching tool”. You will accept that the ‘school’ is an instrument for obtaining young males for the sexual needs of the teacher, and that is part of its raison d’etre.

4. “I consent to the separation of the teacher from his teaching”. You will be asked to achieve aims, like ‘control of the passions’, that the teacher has not observably achieved for himself.

5. “I agree to pay up to 40% of my income to the school”. You will inhabit a school in which your value, and the principle of payment is measured chiefly by money contributed, not degree of diligence or depth of sincerity.

266. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 17, 2009

260. nige:
‘Burton, I am sure, has crystallised as almost a teenage homosexual pervert.’

That’s called a ‘prevert,’ as in pre-vertebrate – not sufficiently developed to have a spine – some places referred to as invertebrate. Kind of like a human penis – completely absorbed and identified with the human penis to the extent (no pun intended) that a person becomes crystallised as one – spineless.

262. James Mclemore:
‘There was that odd reasoning behind why more people did not leave even after suspecting that something was wrong with Jones and Koresh, and where they would overlook and justify what they knew to be wrong, because they still wished to believe that the truth was there, and that good things had come from it; and of course that always difficult part where no one wishes to finally fess up to themselves of the fact that they have been fooled or were mistaken.’

Stockholm Syndrome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

‘it seemed pretty obvious that our boy Bobby aced that test and scored a remarkable 9 for 9.’

That’s why he’s a Nine of. . .

264. Crouching Tiger:
‘It’s the transmission of a teaching by word of mouth to continue a living tradition.’

In Burton’s case, it’s called the: ‘Oral Tradition’ – has nothing to do with words. He teaches what he has learned at the (choose name of anatomical part you’d like to insert here) of his teacher(s).

265. Crouching Tiger:
Great list. Thanks.

267. Jomo Piñata - November 17, 2009

261/Lacuna Piñata:

Also your swipe about me not going to college shows a certain valuation of academia.

I guess you must think that “valuation of academia” makes someone “intellectually centered.” Brother, I don’t care much if you went to college or not, but there are lots of people who function quite well in discussing ideas and whom (if you knew them) you would readily admit defy neat pigeonholes (such as “intellectually centered”). People in general are more complex than any pigeonhole that you can devise for them.

Let’s have a look at what you wrote:

For one thing, you being intellectually centered, you like to quote main stream psychology and it’s theories, studies, block buster books, etc. and I find it an extremely limiting genre, although it has its place for the masses.

Let’s see. You lump something you call “main stream psychology and it’s theories” [sic] together with “studies” and “block buster books” and you call all of these together a “genre” which “has its place for the masses.

First of all, can you see the contempt for ordinary people that’s expressed in the phrase “it has its place for the masses”? They are the great unwashed masses, and you, throwing off the limitations of those ideas, are somehow “above” them. You are basically inviting people to take swipes at you, since you purport to be elevated above them. Can’t you see that?

And second of all, I am puzzled by the proposition that, at least in your mind, “main stream psychology and it’s [sic] theories, together with studies and block buster books” constitute a genre. Do you really lump all these things together? Is your thinking so fuzzy that you see these things as belonging to a “genre”?

I was thinking about our interaction this morning. Why would someone find quotations from works on psychology and other subjects “extremely limiting”? Then it came to me:

To someone who expects to uncover inner meaning in prehistoric rhino poop and license plates, it would be extremely limiting to have to engage in disciplined thinking and discussion based on the critical examination of ideas and values. It would feel like jail.

Probably such a person sees thought-terminating clichés as a way around having to do that. If you can interrupt that process and do the sequence or employ some other technique that interrupts mental activity, like saying some little aphorism, it must feel like a get-out-of-jail-free card. It is uncomfortable to have one’s mental shackles pointed out, so it must be a relief to shed the burden of that perception, at least for the time being.

But at the end of the day, others are able to use their free minds to examine whatever they like, including ideas, while you, Lacuna Piñata, are stuck at Burton’s Monopoly table. Oops, you just landed on Park Place with a hotel. Please pay another $650 to the owner of Park Place. Gone bust yet?

268. Panoritsa - November 17, 2009

DC

I am marking term papers at the moment (academic writing). Your writings here would do fine in paragraphs, clarity and style, sentence parts and patterns, and punctuation. You would fail your papers because of your “Research and Documentation.”

You keep on wanting to pass your tests with lousy research and no critical thinking. No way. Burton is the only one on your list.

Also, be aware of the fact you seem to be “advertising” an institutionalized “school of awakening”, and you disregard other people’s experiences as “false.”

You are not only “sharing” your pleasure to be part of the Fellowship (Pathway to Presence) here.

I am going back to my students’ work…

269. Tatyana - November 17, 2009

No, I don’t think DC is GH. I think it is another writer. Girard wouldn’t make so many typos to begin with.

If he is who I think he is – he is not a very typical FOFer and not very respected there either… But I may be wrong.

270. Yesri Baba - November 17, 2009

“For one thing, you being intellectually centered, you like to quote main stream psychology and it’s theories, studies, block buster books, etc. and I find it an extremely limiting genre, although it has its place for the masses.”

I’m not “intellectually centered” but I gots one. It tells me that this statement, of all the stupid things that have been said on the 85 pages of the blog, not only takes the cake and slices it up but gobbles it down and licks up the crumbs.

DC you’re special in that ‘short bus’ special kinda way.

271. Yesri Baba - November 17, 2009

“There are elements of truth underlying a narrative that is completely false.”

-Midlevel unnamed McCain campaign aid on Sarah Palin’s book.

….and an apt description of the Fellowship of Friends aka Pathway to Presence.

272. brucelevy - November 17, 2009

269. Tatyana

Yes, someone who would know described DC to me also (as not being GH). But as you surmised, the person is not that well thought of or respected, except by himself. Could it be because of his pompous, supercilious, offensive narcissism and self-delusion? No, that couldn’t be it

273. brucelevy - November 17, 2009

I wouldn’t name him anyway, but he is described as someone I would not have known in my early years.

274. Ames Gilbert - November 17, 2009

Well, I certainly don’t know if DC is Girard Haven. I assume that Girard’s formal writings are heavily edited, but not so if informal. The style could read quite differently, as a result.
Anyway, I’ve been catching up on Girard’s writing because someone sent me a collection of his books a week ago. I’ve never read any of his work before, not even the Fellowship Forum when it existed as such. In fact, I have only ever spoken to Girard once in my life, from my recollection. I had my reasons. So, I’ll let some of his words speak for themselves. Here he is telling us about verification. I’ll resist editorializing until afterwards…
From “Creating a Soul”, page 73

…I suddenly found myself making a distinction between ‘verifying’ and ‘testing’…
In the way I mean it, ‘testing’ is essentially a negative process. It refers to the attempt to disprove something or to make it fail, as when an automobile door is tested by a machine which opens and closes it thousands of times, or when a child tests his parents by deliberately going where he is not supposed to go. In the Fellowship, testing usually starts from negative attitudes towards school disciplines, attitudes such as “Why should I have to do this?” These attitudes lead to efforts to discover what is wrong with a request, what is beneficial about its opposites, and what one can get away with, although all this often occurs in the guise of thinking for oneself, finding one’s own expression for the work, etc. In any case, it is easy to see that testing embodies the attitudes of opposite thinking.
Verification, on the other hand, is a positive process. It begins by adopting the attitude that the thing to be verified is correct, and then uses observation of the results of acting according to that attitude to determine the validity of the original assumption.
As an example, consider a child who is told that fire is hot. He tests this by putting something into the fire; he verifies it by trusting his parents and by observing. Although this may seem a trivial example, there are people all around us (as well as many ‘I’s within us) who insist on sticking their hands into fires, particularly when the emotional center is involved. We even refer to such people as being ‘burned’ in, for example, a bad relationship.
The dangers of testing are compounded by the fact that our emotional centers are so underdeveloped that we are often unable even to realize when we are being burned. This is especially true in relation to the School. We have only a very limited understanding of what actually serves our evolution, and that understanding is restricted to a very small part of our machines, that part of the king of hearts which has been trained by the School itself. The rest of the machine does not understand awakening and so easily adopts a negative, testing attitude which, if not recognized for what it is, can lead one out of the School.
This, then is why it is so important to learn to verify rather than to test, to develop and ability to trust the wisdom of Higher Forces and to affirm and strengthen that trust by acting on it, as the Teacher does. Essentially, the attitude that one must test in order to verify betrays a lack of understanding of our relation to Higher Forces. In our sleep, we act as if we were their equals, and set ourselves up to test and judge their requests. When we get away with it, as mechanically as we sometimes will, this illusion is reinforced. Consequently, no matter what one may finally learn from it, testing always feeds false personality.
Verification, on the other hand, can be seen as the process of intentionally deciding to adopt attitudes which presumably come from higher beings, and then confirming those attitudes, and hence their origin, by action and observation. It is an ongoing process, the method by which knowledge is brought into being to create understanding.
Moreover, because verification involves setting aside one’s own ideas to adopt the ideas or attitudes one is verifying, it runs counter to the illusion of self-importance, and so is relatively free of false personality. Instead, it is a manifestation of true personality, embodying the understanding that one cannot test Influence C, set conditions for them, or make demands of them. One cannot even ‘prove’ their existence: one must accept them, and in doing so, verify their presence.

BTW, throughout this book, “Influence C” and “Robert Burton” are interchangeable and indistinguishable. So, this is the gold standard of verification in the FoF, in this case larded with heavy doses of appeals to authority. And whether DC is Girard or not, it is certainly DC’s standard of verification. Sigh!

275. Golden Veil - November 17, 2009

*

1. One word comment on the above: S C A R Y

2. Maybe Daily Cardiac IS Girard Haven!

“When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow.”

[Anais Nin]

*

276. dragon - November 17, 2009

Mister Haven and the definition of FoF-verification:

277. sallymcnally - November 17, 2009

#274: From reading this post from Ames out of Girard’s book, it seems to me that Girard’s logical mind has successfully manipulated himself, which I feel is very unfortunate and makes me sad.

278. James Mclemore - November 17, 2009

Interesting how even in just the defining of the word and idea of ‘verification’, it becomes used as part of a sort of ‘bait and switch’ game, in order to make the transition into something that is purely ‘faith-based’. Amazing……. and scary, and yes ‘sallymcnally’, sad too, in that I suspect that the bait and switch is not even done intentionally, but because of and through, as you said, Girard’s own self-manipulation. It would appear that DC is in the same predicament.

279. Ames Gilbert - November 18, 2009

Yeah, it reminds me of the standard of evidence at the trial of the Knave of Hearts, in “Alice In Wonderland”. Girard has spent most of his adult life twisting his mind like a pretzel to make the evidence fit the case, the case being whatever Burton currently says. It would be a hard enough job if Burton was even remotely consistent, but since he is only consistently crazy, Girard has to follow Burton around on his self-imposed task of continually trying to normalize the latest craziness or crime in order to lull the followers, himself first. His reward? Burton has fed him a crumb, the title of “Man Number Five”. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Girard rearranged his mind again to make the evidence support that ‘fact’, on the lines of “Robert says I’m conscious, so this must be what it is like to be conscious, and all those doubts and evidence to the contrary must just come from my ‘lower self’”.

Someone who left fairly recently said to me, “A lot of people are only hanging on because of Girard”. In other words, they see Girard as their last connection to— what, sanity?

You can’t make this stuff up.

280. James Mclemore - November 18, 2009

On the idea Ames just stated as “to make the evidence fit the case”….
It reminded me of the ‘law of fives’ from Discordianism……..

Excerpts from Wikipedia –

(Begin quoted excerpts)

The Law of Fives states simply that: All things happen in fives, or are divisible by or are multiples of five, or are somehow directly or indirectly appropriate to 5.
The Law of Fives is never wrong.

—Malaclypse the Younger

Another way of looking at the Law of Fives is as a symbol for the observation of reality changing that which is being observed in the observer’s mind. Just as how when one looks for fives in reality, one finds them, so will one find conspiracies, ways to determine when the apocalypse will come, and so on and so forth when one decides to look for them. It cannot be wrong, because it proves itself reflexively when looked at through this lens.

At its basic level, the Law of Fives is a practical demonstration that perception is intent-sensitive; that is, the percipient’s intentions inform the perception. To whatever extent one considers that perception is identical with reality, then, it has the corollary that reality is intent-sensitive.

Lord Omar is quoted as saying,
“I find the Law of Fives to be more and more manifest the harder I look.”

(End of quoted excerpts)

281. X-ray - November 18, 2009

274. Ames Gilbert – November 17, 2009

Girard is sick.

282. X-ray - November 18, 2009

And he stinks the same as Daily Crap.

283. Panoritsa - November 18, 2009

Mr. Haven’s position (till about a year ago) in the cult was to sit up front with Mr. Burton and read his angles from a piece of paper. It was only a limited number of words, he was able to offer his “point of view” but there were restrictions.

It is so surprising to see how someone who could “think” would end up in such a jail.

The problem is that Girard has always played the role of the person who could understand Robert’s “wisdom” on the level of a “man number 5” (here comes the insanity again…) and was willing and able to “translate” the gibberish to structured sentences so we all “men number 4… or almost there…) would get the higher wisdom….

And again, the jail we experienced in the cult (and some still do), is in our mind… The walls are imaginary, the steps to take are simple and lead to a certain liberation.

Life in a cult (even when you live somewhere in Europe or Asia…) is toxic.

I think DC is a nobody in the cult. The few current members I talk with, do not have any respect whatsoever.

But cults by definition are filled up with people who want to be something “special” and “great” but only behind closed doors and in their mind mainly. People who are used to create small independent rooms in themselves and keep secrets(do not exclude myself from this…). No effort, no responsibility, just the next sequence and breath away…

People who would do any amount of work to just avoid doing what they are supposed to do… Very familiar….

284. Yesri Baba - November 18, 2009

“At its basic level, the Law of Fives is a practical demonstration that perception is intent-sensitive; that is, the percipient’s intentions inform the perception.”

And what a wide open field for imagination and the unconscious to play in is something that can not be known or percieved i.e. “c-influence”.

what a con job.

285. Crouching Tiger - November 18, 2009

Ames.

Thanks for the GH quote. Interesting to see how the logic changes almost imperceptibly through the passage, as the mind works towards its blind faith in Robert Burton:

1. “Verification, on the other hand, is a positive process. It begins by adopting the attitude that the thing to be verified is [may be] correct, and then uses observation of the results of acting according to that attitude to determine the validity of the original assumption.”

2. “Verification, on the other hand, can be seen as the process of intentionally deciding to adopt attitudes which presumably come from higher beings, and then confirming those attitudes, and hence their origin, by action and observation.”

How did we get from here to there?

In some ways GH is Burton’s deadliest weapon, supplying an intellectual conviction and an explanatory apparatus that RB can’t.

286. Spock - November 18, 2009

Hey everyone,

Keep up the good work in presenting information about Robert Burton, the “Fellowship of Friends”, “Pathway to Presence”, and “beingpresent.org” etc., that reveals how bad the illness is in this cult, and that balances the group think and propaganda that radiates from it. Keep remembering that your comments do help someone somewhere who is reading this page right now.

What’s more, realize that every word here leads to more frustration and concern for Robert Burton, or he wouldn’t have people checking in to oppose and unsuccessfully try to obscure: Another young guy leaves and embarks on a healthy, fulfilling and productive life, another person thinks twice about giving money, another person thinks twice about joining. It’s all helping, and don’t believe any comments here that suggest otherwise.

Have fun!

287. Just the Facts Ma'am - November 18, 2009

274. Ames Gilbert:
‘Well, I certainly don’t know if DC is Girard Haven.’

It’s not a matter of ‘Who’s on first,’
‘What’s on second,’ and
‘I-don’t-know’s on third.’
Most people can recognize the THINKING that comes from the brainwashing regardless of who is doing the speaking/writing. This type of thinking is monolithic.

283. Panoritsa:
‘And again, the jail we experienced in the cult (and some still do), is in our mind… The walls are imaginary, the steps to take are simple and lead to a certain liberation.’

Here’s a bit of satire:

C-3PO (G.H.)
vs.
Darth Vader (R.E.B.)
1:44:

288. Kid Shelleen - November 18, 2009

Let us not get all weepy and sentimental about Girard. I, personally, thought him to be full of crap from the first time I read one of his articles in the Bore-em, to the last time I heard him give an angle. He only surprised me once. We were chatting at intermission and I happened to mention that I was interested to hear that there was to be a jazz concert at Ren/Apo. He actually looked wistful for a moment and then said, “Yes things change. I’m wondering when we’ll have the Grateful Dead come up and play for us. I understand their concerts are one of the few places where one can still aquire really good LSD.” He quickly added, “If one were inclined to take that road, one could, but one would risk one’s status in the school.”

I wonder if #5 had a nostalgic moment there.

289. Just the Facts Ma'am - November 18, 2009

279. Ames Gilbert
‘Girard has spent most of his adult life twisting his mind like a pretzel to. . .’

Good analogy, ‘the trial of the Knave of Hearts, in “Alice In Wonderland”.’
[The Queen of Hearts she made some tarts all on a summer’s day;
The Knave of Hearts he stole the tarts and hid them clean away.
The King of Hearts called for the tarts and beat the Knave full sore
The Knave of Hearts brought back the tarts and vowed he’d steal no more.]
But, no Jihad is not ‘twisting his mind like a pretzel.’
He is twisting his mind like a möbius strip:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip
That’s because, like a möbius strip, his mind only has one side with the illusion that there are two sided. Also, it is inside-out and outside-in at the same time.

290. Just the Facts Ma'am - November 18, 2009

M.C. Escher’s view of möbius strip:

291. Mikey - November 18, 2009

Panoritsa/283
How cosmically & comically clever: To be trapped in a prison of the worst kind. An invisible jail of your own making. Who says there is no justice?

292. fofblogmoderator - November 18, 2009

286 is new

293. sallymcnally - November 18, 2009

Luckily we seem to be entering a time on this planet where logical mind is seen for what it is, a limited mindset and to stay within its boundaries only brings more fear and unrest.

Realistically expansion of consciousness can ony proceed if ‘the man behind the curtain’ is revealed within each of us and the FOF provides a great example of what is happening on a larger scale.

294. Shelley Mitchell - November 18, 2009

Re: Daily Cardiac/Girard Haven

Girard and Barbara were brand new center directors when I joined the fof in Los Angeles in 1975. It was the changing of the guard from Miles and Helga to Girard and Barbara. Big promotion, big stakes, big city.

IMHO If at the time I (we) had known about Carl Jung’s in-depth recognition of synchronicity and what Native Americans call The Good Red Road the jingoistic rhetoric of Girard Haven and the fof party line would never have taken root.

Meaningful coincidences happen.
Do they only happen to people in the fof? No.
Has Girard Haven/DC verified this? Well, if they’ve never TESTED it outside the fof then, no.

Institutions are not in search of the miraculous… they are in search of marketing it.

There are a lot of very wounded, very smart, very powerful people in leadership positions all over the world. Alice Miller’s book Breaking Down the Walls of Silence is a fantastic exploration into the subject. I sent RB a copy when I left.
I guess he didn’t read it.

Shelley

295. WhaleRider - November 18, 2009

Instead of facing my fears …I suddenly found myself making a distinction between the process of ‘verifabrication’ and having ‘testicles’…

In the way I mean it, ‘testicles’ is essentially a negative cult practice. It refers to the attempt to disprove something patently false or to make the authority figure feel like a failure, as when the exit door is used by the cult leader’s machine which he opens and closes thousands of times to throw out any dissenters, or when a growing child challenges his parents, deliberately expressing his individuality by rebelling against the authority figures he was assigned in his life.

In the Fellowship of Followers, having testicles usually starts from negative attitudes towards the many inane school disciplines, attitudes such as “What the fuck does letting Burton suck my dick have anything to do with my evolution?”

These attitudes lead to efforts to discover what is wrong with Burton’s manipulative requests, what is beneficial about its opposite (freedom), and how one can get away from him; although all this often occurs in the guise of thinking for oneself, finding one’s own expression for the work, etc, which of course is the correct path leading to one’s own spiritual virtuosity.

Never mind that, it is easy to see that having testicles embodies the process of critical thinking, which is tantamount to a well-developed, balanced, and inquiring intellect, the anathema to being a good cult follower.

Verifabrication, on the other hand, is a positive cult practice. It begins by adopting the attitude that the thingy to be verified is already correct and really doesn’t need to be verified at all; then the ardent cult follower uses his dulled awareness to focus only on the results of acting in accordance to the attitude of conforming to the validity of the original assumption and getting praise and adoration from other long-term followers.

As an example, consider a dependent and immature child who is told that fire is hot.

His parent show him this by putting his testicles into the fire; he verifies that yes, wow, fire is indeed hot, and yet he is so dependent that he is forced to think his parents are not really hurting him and that it is for his own good that he suffers, thus instilling a pattern of co-dependence.

Although this may seem a trivial example, there are really, really stupid people all around us who insist on discovering the truth for themsleves by briefly sticking their hands into fires instead of their testicles (although my testicles as well as my conscience were shriveled long ago), particularly when the developing emotional/intellectual/instinctive/moving/sex CENTER is involved and the person needs and wants to develop self-trust and independence.

We even refer to such people as being ‘burned’ in, for example, a bad relationship between the Great Leecher and a follower who doesn’t conform to his sexual demands…and you know what happens to them…poof! they just disappear.

The dangers of having testicles are compounded by the fact that cult follower’s intellectual/emotional/instinctive/moving/sex CENTER and self-esteem are so underdeveloped and entranced by glittery gold material objects or dulled with alcohol, that we are often unable even to realize when we are being burned, like little froggies in the pot of boiling water, and that enables us to ingest and stomach all of the rhino poop that the Great Leecher feeds us without gagging.

This is especially true in relation to the preschool. We are so co-dependent that we followers have only a very limited understanding of what actually serves our personal evolution, and that understanding is restricted to a teenie tiny part of our lowly, diabolical bad machines, only that part of the king of farts which has been potty trained by the preschool itself.

The rest of the bad machine could never ever, ever understand awakening and so easily adopts a negative, testicular attitude which, if not recognized for what it is, can lead one out of the preschool and out into the big scary world.

This then is why it is so important to learn to verifabricate rather than to have testicles, to develop an ability to be dependent upon the wisdom of the Higher Unconscious Forces of Someone Else and to affirm and strengthen that trust by acting only along the lines of the cult indoctrination, exactly as the Great Leecher dictates.

Essentially, the attitude that one must have testicles in order not to verifabricate betrays a lack of fear of our relation to the Higher Unconscious Forces of Someone Else and a desire to be in one’s own power.

In our sleep, we dream of one day all being equals in that faraway, unattainable place called Paradise, while others set themselves up to testiculate and have critical thought about the repeated requests to have gay sex with the Great Leecher.

When we get away with from him, as mechanically as we sometimes will need to do for our own sanity, this illusion is of independence is reinforced. Consequently, no matter what one may finally learn from oneself, having testicles is very, very bad and should always be labeled as false personality.

Verifabrication, on the other hand, can be seen as the process of intentionally and subtly acquiescing to adopt attitudes which presumably come from higher beings floating above the dinner table, and then sequencingly confirming those attitudes, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and hence indirectly their origin, and then by acting against our own self interest and becoming submissive and subservient to the sexual and financial demands of the Great Leecher as only he sees fit.

This is an ongoing process, the reinforcing method by which false knowledge is indoctrinated into our belief system in an effort to create deep misunderstanding, confusion, and lack of self-trust in the divine present and in the unforeseeable apocalyptic future.

Moreover, because verifabrication involves censoring one’s own ideas and individuality in order to adopt the ideas or attitudes one is verifabricating; it runs counter to the illusion of self-importance, and so is relatively free of healthy individuality.

Instead, verifabrication is a manifestation of a true co-dependent personality, embodying the understanding that one cannot both have testicles and be dependent upon someone else’s definition of Influence C: nor set any healthy boundaries, nor make any demands whatsoever for one’s own self interest. Burton’s interests are all that are important.

One cannot even ‘prove’ their existence…so what? Big deal. One must still accept them, and in doing so, verifabricate their presence.

Because if you don’t, trust me, you will burn forever and ever in hell
for all eternity. Do I make myself clear young man?

296. James Mclemore - November 18, 2009

WhaleRider –

Thanks for the new word. ‘Verifabrication’ is a very clear concept.

297. Ill Never Tell - November 19, 2009

295. WhaleRider:
‘His parent[s] show him this by putting his testicles into the fire; he verifies that yes, wow, fire is indeed hot, and yet he is so dependent that he is forced to think his parents are not really hurting him and that it is for his own good that he suffers, thus instilling a pattern of co-dependence.’

Aahh!, ’tis the season to be jolly with chestnuts roasting on the open fire. . .

‘One cannot even ‘prove’ their [Influence C] existence…so what? Big deal. One must still accept them, and in doing so, verifabricate their presence.’

Wow! Do you really mean that there IS a Santa Claus!?

There is a new Fellowship of Friends (a.k.a.: Pathway to Presence) exercise: Testiculation is not permitted while you are speaking. Testiculation is a very mechanical thing to do and interferes with effective communication and use of the intellectual centre – unless, of course, if you’re deaf, then American Sign Language (ASL; which is distinctly different from BSL, Bull Shit Language, that Life People speak) is permitted.

298. nige - November 19, 2009

You know folks – I can’t see why there is not a possibility of a…..

FRAUD INVESTIGATION

into the Fellowship of Frauds. After all, there is enough evidence from the past, which continues into the present and will sure enough continue into the future unless there are some mighty shocks applied to the CULT…..Nigel.

299. X-ray - November 19, 2009

294. Shelley Mitchell – November 18, 2009

‘I sent RB a copy when I left. I guess he didn’t read it.’

Of course he didn’t. He is retarded.

300. veramente - November 19, 2009

Verify! Verify!
I thought we were insured by this very word, command and safeguard for truth.
It gave me the illusion of some freedom after all.
an illusion….

verifabrication, good one Whalerider!

301. James Mclemore - November 19, 2009

The address is too long to cut and paste, but for a short musical interlude I think anyone would enjoy, no matter what kind of music you prefer………

google – youtube clark terry
and then click on – clark terry does ‘mumbles’ on Legends of Jazz

This gentleman has been around for a long, long time.

302. fofblogmoderator - November 19, 2009

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