jump to navigation

Fellowship Of Friends Discussion – Part 84 October 7, 2009

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
trackback

Welcome to the newest page of the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. Susan Zannos - October 7, 2009

I’m behind the wave since I’m just now finishing The Guru Papers. Still, I am extremely leery of theorizing founded on prehistory, Robert’s or anyone else’s. It always has that whiff of horseshit…so when Kramer and
Alstad repeatedly claim that the development of agriculture brought about accumulation and power hierarchies and blah, blah, blah…well, there’s that distinctive odor.

2. nige - October 7, 2009

1 Susan Zannos

If it were not for the French Normans invading and setting up feudalism, we in England would all be self-employed and bartering (and no frigging banks!!!!!). Yeh, I know it may be extreme, but things would have been different…..Nigel.

3. James Mclemore - October 7, 2009

Yeah but Nige…….
If it were not for the fact that my father, when he was a young man, had traveled into Texas and then Arizona looking for his mother, he would never have met my mother, who would never have been there either if it was not for her family having to leave Old Mexico during the revolution when she was a very young girl. Just think, if not for all those things, you would probably not get to read this.
It makes me wonder if anything could have possibly been any different than it was.

4. Ellen - October 7, 2009

it coulda, shoulda, woulda been different…
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-butterfly-effect.htm

5. Crouching Tiger - October 7, 2009

Thanks for the quotes from Kramer, Jomo. I feel the underlying topic is becoming clearer. How to resolve this strange division between attention to the inner world, and the desire for the feeling of one-ness, and at the same time live as a human being must, by functioning effectively in the outside world?

The evidence on this blog is enough to show what happens when attention to the inner world becomes exclusive. The result is the Fellowship of Friends, where “the state is everything” and behaviour is strangely disjointed from the imagined level of being. A man convinces himself and many others that he is conscious and free, and yet he’s also a sociopath who cannot relate to others except in terms of his own [excessive] needs.

And yet living exclusively through the ego, through the critical mind, seems no better. We see boundaries and limitations everywhere, but the force of connection is strangely absent. I spent much of my early life as first a student, then a teacher at a university. I exercised the critical mind extensively. What I discovered was an immensely powerful, but curiously rootless thing – a force that could argue and research, and yet like a journalist, was always waiting for the next story. A follower, not a leader.

I recall my last few months in the fellowship, and it was not the weight of evidence, even on the Blog, that took me out. It was emerging out of that meeting with D-rian into the cold winter night, exhaling into the air and knowing, as I stood there, that he was a fake. It was having a long personal conversation with K-r-n B–nst–k on the way to the airport, and both of us realizing, in a moment of silence, who Robert Burton really was. The critical mind only kicked in after that and supplied the reasons. But in those moments all the decisive action was taken, it just took my mind a while to catch up.

I feel that there is an intelligence among intelligences, that knows how to connect the worlds together, and be real in both. Its only interest is the sense of relationship – between man and his functions, man and his god, man and his world. It doesn’t have a preference, but it knows how to maintain harmony between them, and it knows when that harmony has been lost. In my experience, this is trustworthy.

6. Voloneska - October 7, 2009

It is surprise to me that after FOF still there is much idealistic thinking and wanting to have new interpretation of history to show how things should be. Opposite of Burton tyranny is not utopia and perfect world. Opposite of Burton tyranny is to know place in world – even of Burton tyranny and FOF, or maybe especially this. It was said by several people that are positive to FOF and also negative, that FOF experience gives knowlege and is with value. It does not matter what our past. Not many people will in true way want to loose experience and knowlege, even if it is full of bad. For some truma is big issue and this is diffent situation. But for most, it was part of life, if life different, regrets are differnt, but nothing real will change. Can you wish not to have youth experience, marriage, child, memory, friend, travel experience or new country because of FOF. No! We are child of personal history and we cannot wish that we do not exist. It is not possible. Only possible in abstract to feel sorry for self because of greedyness for more and different for adding to experience, not different for substitution or to eliminate personal history.
FOF is part of world. FOF expression of world and expression of way world works. Ignoreing this is to miss big lesson. FOF not special case, FOF normal, only extreme dynamic existing to give expression that makes drama for exitement and righteiousness.
No reason to feel special, no reason to feel sorry for self. Instead of FOF maybe get hit by tram or be in army. How many people live and did live on planet?? How many strange lives were lived by these people. There is no ‘unfair’ to say about life. Not by people with roof and food and future. If FOF experience cannot give food for thinking right way – then what hope for experience in life to give us this food. Maybe something very bad. Do you want this or is FOF enough to show way world works?
Is it nesessary to count 2 houses, then 2 horses, then 2 stars, then 2 lies etc, etc, etc ……. to know 1 + 1 = 2. Or can it be possible to know there is rule? Some rule is very clear in FOF. This is not rule only for FOF, this is rule first for normal life, then it applies for FOF becasue FOF is example of rule existing in life. If only see demonstration of rule from FOF experience, maybe do not think enough or maybe to much personal occurance addict to see over reading glasses.
Can take this to greater extent to say that Burton, council, Apollo Arts, new student, Apollo D’Oro pot washer and former student, even Elena – all alive in us all. This is advantage. Do not have to be Burton to know Burton.

7. Crouching Tiger - October 7, 2009

Voloneska.

“Can take this to greater extent to say that Burton, council, Apollo Arts, new student, Apollo D’Oro pot washer and former student, even Elena – all alive in us all. This is advantage. Do not have to be Burton to know Burton.”

Well said.

8. Bares Reposting - October 7, 2009

83/297. Jomo Piñata
(and others)
If you are supplying a link to a PDF or other significant download or file transfer, netiquette dictates that you

inform people by providing such information with the link – before activated – so a person can make an informed decision before clicking on the link. Information could include file type, file size, file name, file content general description.

9. Jomo Piñata - October 7, 2009

Criticism accepted.

10. Jomo Piñata - October 7, 2009

1/Susan Z

I hear you.

Consider also the following:

In the wake of the Fellowship experience, your bullshit and manipulation sensors may get reset. You may find they go off even where there’s no actual bullshit or attempted manipulation, but only something that superficially resembles actual bullshit or attempted manipulation you previously encountered.

This was my experience, and may or may not apply to you.

11. Walter Tanner - October 7, 2009

Around the fifth year in the Fellowship, I undertook an experiment: I stopped using the Fourth Way system and re-cast all my experience in terms of Leary’s eight-circuit model of consciousness (found in his Game of Life and other works). It was quite a remarkable enlightenment, to see that I could so completely change the software, so to speak, of my brain.

Over the next two years I cycled through several systems, experiencing the strengths and weaknesses of each, always keeping in mind Wittgenstein’s maxim: “The easiest thing in the universe is to deceive oneself.” Obviously this maneuver led me away from the FoF and Robert, and I’ve kept it up to the present day.

Such a working leaves one with a peculiar sense of self — I empathize strongly with the Buddhist concept of no-self. Another way of looking at it is from John Lilly:

“In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true is true or becomes true, within certain limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the mind, there are no limits…”

I guess I’d say that in the mind there are no limits because there is no mind (no-self). Impermanent ego-structures (impermanent does not mean unreal) can postulate certain limits for mind, then by transcending them those very ego-structures find themselves chastened and made more unreal. (I don’t really like the word “transcend;” I think Lilly merely means going-beyond or finding inadequate).

So it is really no accomplishment to say you are enlightened. Just another experiential limit that needs to be found inadequate. Regarding Kramer et al., it seems to me (at least in the Guru Papers) that he and Alstaad are not interested in finding the inadequacy of their conception of oneness. And on the other hand an engineer does not need to find the inadequacy of Newtonian physics to build a bridge — Kramer & Alstaad’s deconstruction of oneness is highly useful for skewering authoritarian gurus, and I’m glad they do it.

As always, you all rock.

Ana Ng and I are getting old
And we still haven’t walked in the glow of each other’s majestic presence
Listen Ana hear my words
They’re the ones you would think I would say if there was a me for you

Bares Reposting —

I always right-click on links and “Open Link in New Window.” You can continue reading the blog or whatever, and if the link takes too long to open, just close the new window. We don’t want to neuter the power of the internet because someone cannot or will not take the time to look-up and type-up the “file type, file size, file name, file content and general description.”

12. Susan Zannos - October 7, 2009

10/ Jomo Yes, definitely the sensors have been recalibrated to excessive sensitivity. And probably Kramer and Alstad create more irritation with their self-aggrandizing and redundant footnotes than with their theory. Certainly there were extremely useful insights (most of which had already been excerpted on the blog so that the cream had been skimmed before I started reading the book) However, in response to your comment, I don’t think bullshit has to necessarily be manipulative to be bullshit. It can occur merely from trying to cram everything in all of human history into one little theory, like Cinderella’s stepsisters lopping off their toes to fit the slipper.

13. Jomo Piñata - October 7, 2009

12/Susan Z.

I don’t think bullshit has to necessarily be manipulative to be bullshit

I definitely agree. Bullshit is bullshit and manipulation is manipulation. Sometimes manipulation hides behind bullshit. Sometimes bullshit is out there all by itself.

14. Kid Shelleen - October 7, 2009

Here’s a little incongruous treat that blows my mind almost as much as a windy day: They Might Be Giants playing w/ Doc Severinson and the Tonight Show Orchestra, doing their esoteric smash “Build A Little Birdhouse In Your Soul.”

I hope that taking my philosophical outlook on life from these songs doesn’t prove as crazy as interpreting vanity license plates…

15. James Mclemore - October 7, 2009

Kid Shelleen –

Thank you again. My step-daughter from a prevous marriage, introduced me to those guys 15-20 years ago. I remember feeling it was some of the freshest music and lyrics I had heard in a long time. I had sort of forgotten about them. Great stuff!!

16. Susan Zannos - October 7, 2009

6/ Voloneska
OK, that makes a lot of things fit together: When it’s all over, which it very nearly is, it may be possible to know a few simple, clear things: 1 and 1 = 2; and if I’d gone into the army instead of being hit by a tram or being in the Fellowship, I might have been one of the guards at Abu Ghaib torturing prisoners while thinking I was doing the right thing–simply because that’s a possibility in the matter of being human, one of the rules.
It happens the way it happens because it didn’t happen some other way.
Thank you, and thank you all. (I recommend Taxi to the Dark Side for having your heart broken for the abusers rather than the abused.)

17. nige - October 8, 2009

3 James Mclemore

“It makes me wonder if anything could have possibly been any different than it was.”

This resounds powerfully with me now…..
Realising that ALL MY LIFE’S EXPERIENCES HAVE BEEN A TEACHING AND A LEARNING…..Nigel.

(“Like a bolt out of the blue, Fate steps in and pulls you through”)

18. Yesri Baba - October 8, 2009

I feel that there is an intelligence among intelligences, that knows how to connect the worlds together, and be real in both. Its only interest is the sense of relationship – between man and his functions, man and his god, man and his world. It doesn’t have a preference, but it knows how to maintain harmony between them, and it knows when that harmony has been lost. In my experience, this is trustworthy.

“When we regard ourselves in the many situations life brings, we find
that from first breath to last we are conditioned by external factors. Yet is that highest freedom left to us–to perfect ourselves within, so as that we shall come into harmony with the moral world order and attain peace with ourselves, no matter what obstacles may emerge. This is easily said and written, yet it is no more than a goal before us, to the achievement of which we must thouroughly dedicate ourselves. Every day challenges us to do what is to be done and expect whatever is possible.”
Goethe

19. nige - October 8, 2009

18 Yesri Baba

“When we regard ourselves in the many situations life brings, we find
that from first breath to last we are conditioned by external factors. Yet is that highest freedom left to us–to perfect ourselves within, so as that we shall come into harmony with the moral world order and attain peace with ourselves, no matter what obstacles may emerge. This is easily said and written, yet it is no more than a goal before us, to the achievement of which we must thouroughly dedicate ourselves. Every day challenges us to do what is to be done and expect whatever is possible.”
Goethe

That hit the target of my accepting heart. Thank you YB…..Nigel.

20. surelyujest - October 8, 2009

11. Walter Tanner

“Around the fifth year in the Fellowship, I undertook an experiment: I stopped using the Fourth Way system and re-cast all my experience in terms of Leary’s eight-circuit model of consciousness (found in his Game of Life and other works). It was quite a remarkable enlightenment, to see that I could so completely change the software, so to speak, of my brain.”

That is remarkable. Doing something similar is what led me to abandon the 4th Way system. For many years, I approached verification the way that everyone else seemed to: that is, I took a positive attitude toward the ideas, then saw evidence everywhere to support my beliefs. Which is to say, I did not verify anything at all in any kind of meaningful way. Didn’t people used to say that you cannot verify the ideas if you have a negative attitude towards them? Even the simplest study that took that approach would be laughed out of the room.

I might even overlook all that, if only I could see some positive examples of the System at work. It’s a strange system that seems to be based on objective facts, where if you do A then B will result, you make this effort and you will receive that, yet there is nothing or no one that followers can point to as an example of what one might attain. Where is the proof? Where is one person who has awakened?

Or even from a less demanding viewpoint: where is a person whose life seems to be better for the efforts? The more that people are involved in these ideas, the less they exhibit or model behaviour and attitudes worth emulating, IME. The long-time devotees are everything from stiff and repressed to self-indulgent, greedy scumbags, or so caustic and negative they become social pariahs.

Mostly they seem unhappy.

When I left FOF, but more importantly when I stopped making 4th Way efforts, I was able to view my life from a global perspective, in a way that I had not been able to for a long time. I was so caught up in the details of efforts, I had lost the ability to see simple, big things like, am I happy? Is this how I want to live my life? I would go so far as to say that I would feel guilty and ashamed even for asking the questions.

I started the 4th Way because it seemed to be something of a scientific “way”: make effort A, and you will receive result B. And from a larger point of view, those results would lead to more consciousness, freedom, self-control and so on. But in myself and others, I saw life becoming entangled, complicated, filled with unnecessary things that didn’t lead to a way out, but led to still more entanglements, complications and what finally began to feel like pointless efforts.

There is a strong strain of Puritanism in this country and it seems to suit many of the 4th Way adherents well. The idea that suffering is good or at any rate useful, that effort is better than no-effort — it all fits just a little too easily with a certain type of person’s innate morality.

I know that much of this comes from the FOF’s distortions of the 4th Way. Gurdjieff said that what is mechanical for one person is right effort for another, and vice versa. So in the FOF, some workaholic people should have been learning to be lazy, maybe, and vice versa. (But you don’t rake in much money from people laying around!) I know this was wrong about the FOF — the standardization of effort. I knew that from day one, but didn’t trust myself enough to follow it for a long time. Of course, following that understanding leads right out of the school, so…

I guess I just don’t trust the 4th Way any more. Or more accurately, I don’t trust the part of me that so badly wants to achieve within that system. There is such a thing as spiritual materialism — when you strip away the vanity, greed, power, and everything else behind the innocent phrase “wanting to wake up” what is left?

There are some very ugly people claiming to be “on the way.” I believe they are going somewhere, but it’s not where they think.

21. surelyujest - October 8, 2009

A quick follow-up. I believe that a spiritual way should lead to peace, compassion, an enlarged and embracing view, an ability to see beyond divisions and find the God within oneself and each person, to begin to see where we are the same and not obsess on our differences. So why, in myself and others I observed, did the opposite so readily flourish?

22. Tatyana - October 8, 2009

20. surelyujest:

“I started the 4th Way because it seemed to be something of a scientific “way”: make effort A, and you will receive result B. And from a larger point of view, those results would lead to more consciousness, freedom, self-control and so on. But in myself and others, I saw life becoming entangled, complicated, filled with unnecessary things that didn’t lead to a way out, but led to still more entanglements, complications and what finally began to feel like pointless efforts.”

Brilliant!

23. Daily Cardiac - October 8, 2009

Walter Tanner – #11:

Walter quoting Wittgenstein’s maxim: “The easiest thing in the universe is to deceive oneself.”

Then – “Obviously this maneuver led me away from the FoF and Robert, and I’ve kept it up to the present day.”

Interesting juxtaposition.

But in a larger context I wonder how Wittgenstein’s maxim applies to the 83 plus pages of comments by ex members who, in no uncertain terms, claim to know everything there is to know about the FoF/RB.

24. Jomo Piñata - October 8, 2009

Ah, hyperbole imbedded in rhetorical question, Lacuna Piñata, my brother. Very good.

25. Mikey - October 8, 2009

Just what we need – more words (expand your vocabulary).
sanskara – (fm. Sanskrit): An impression; a trace or imprint of former experience left as a residue on consciousness that determines one’s desires and actions.
Pay attention, this will be important later.
PS. We don’t need to know all the gory details, DC, just the pertinent stuff that enables one to make an informed evaluation.

26. Tatyana - October 8, 2009

23 DC

de·ceive / diˈsēv/ • v. [tr.] (of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage: I didn’t intend to deceive people into thinking it was French champagne. ∎  (of a thing) give a mistaken impression: [intr.] everything about him was intended to deceive. ∎  (deceive oneself) fail to admit to oneself that something is true. ∎  be sexually unfaithful to (one’s regular partner). DERIVATIVES: de·ceiv·a·ble adj.de·ceiv·er n.

27. voloneska - October 8, 2009

Daily Cardiac. You must know that the maxim is little wise saying, to make short principle point in humoros way.
Burton will use this all the time. You do not need to think to like maxim, you let maxim fall on positive half of 4 of hearts and nodd your head. In FOF most teaching is this way. Small sound-bite with Burton spin. It is embarassing to listen.
To argue with you in this, first must agree that Wittgensteins maxim is ultimate truth and must apply equally like law of gravity.
It is not. I suggest poeple do not swallow hook with worm. It is not nesessary to react to this man. It is clear he is throwing a piece of shit wrapped in paper. Why to open it.

28. voloneska - October 8, 2009

Daily Cardiac post comes close after surleyujest # 20. This is very important post. Reason it comes close after is reaction to truth expressed in # 20. This is obviously why.
Better to read # 20 more and expand on this.

29. Daisy-Jane - October 8, 2009

Surelyujest – #20.

“There are some very ugly people claiming to be ‘on the way’. I believe they are going somewhere, but its not where they think.”

Right on! That sums up the contradiction at the heart of the fof.

Also I would like to offer an apology to Walter Tanner for a sarcastic and inaccurate post I made concerning you a while back. In future if I have an issue with you I will try to address it more directly and clearly. I believe that you (and others who post under their real names) are doing a great service in contributing to the aims of this blog.

Thank you and regards to you all.

30. Ames Gilbert - October 8, 2009

Surelyujest (#84-20 or thereabouts),
Thank you for making all those excellent points.

Although I didn’t get to hear Burton’s executive summary of conscience (“Conscience is just a collection of “I”s; anyone accumulating too much material there should leave the school.”) until the day after I was thrown out, of course I already knew by my direct experience that that is what he taught. It is fair to judge him by his fruits. His acts and the actions of those whom he has taught for forty years show exactly the understanding and value he places on conscience, and thus that he is not fit to teach anyone anything, except as an object lesson.

Speaking for myself, I see that a major corrupting influence within me was the feeling of being special, chosen, no matter if it was ever-so-humbly referred to as ‘our luck’ or ‘our good fortune’ in the many toasts. When I study the malignant narcissism of Burton, and understand that this psychopathy requires those around him to be mirrors to one degree or another, I also have to look within and acknowledge that I was such a mirror myself. A part of me is indeed a mini-narcissist. Any feeling of being different or more important than any of my fellow humans corrupts my efforts to see things the way they really are. And blocking empathy is one step on the road to blocking conscience.
Just even associating with the ‘brightest light in 2000 years’ encouraged this feeling of being set apart, let alone the constant putdown of ‘life’ and constant references to the sea of ‘unconscious sleeping beings’ that surrounded us, those doomed to be ‘expunged by hydrogen warfare in 2006’––according to Burton’s predictions.

So, this world-view corrupted everything, and spoiled every effort. No wonder the results were twisted.

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Volonesca (#84-6),
Thank you for cutting to the heart and the truth of the matter in this post (and many others). “No reason to feel special, no reason to feel sorry for self”.

Whatever ‘might have happened differently’ in some parallel universe, this is what happened to us in this one. For me, one of the great points about trying to be present is that the present moment is the result of all the actions and thoughts of my past concentrated down to one point. It can’t be faked. What is, is. ‘Here and now’ is the whole truth of the situation. I can pretend the past was different from what it was, or wish it had been different, but that doesn’t alter the truth of the present one iota. So, if I want to know the truth of the past, I have to gather my courage and face what is, now.

I really like your phrase, “Do not have to be Burton to know Burton”.
I entirely agree. It seems to me that anything that we are aware of, we already have some part in ourselves that can recognize that; if there is no part in us to recognize something, then it is in effect invisible to us. When we increase our understanding or make a new connection, something that was formerly invisible becomes visible, so to speak.

31. James Mclemore - October 8, 2009

23. Daily Cardiac

You said in reference to posters on this blog, that they…….

“claim to know everything there is to know about the FoF/RB.”

In my memory, no such claim has ever been made. What is being said and indicated over and over, is that they know enough.

32. nige - October 8, 2009

23 Daily Cardiac

“Walter quoting Wittgenstein’s maxim: “The easiest thing in the universe is to deceive oneself.”

Then – “Obviously this maneuver led me away from the FoF and Robert, and I’ve kept it up to the present day.”

Interesting juxtaposition.”

21 surelyujest

“A quick follow-up. I believe that a spiritual way should lead to peace, compassion, an enlarged and embracing view, an ability to see beyond divisions and find the God within oneself and each person, to begin to see where we are the same and not obsess on our differences. So why, in myself and others I observed, did the opposite so readily flourish?”

NOW, THAT IS A JUXTAPOSITION!!!!!

P.S. Shall we see how easily and quickly we can get rid of DC this time.

33. nige - October 8, 2009

30 Ames Gilbert

“Any feeling of being different or more important than any of my fellow humans corrupts my efforts to see things the way they really are. And blocking empathy is one step on the road to blocking conscience.”

Christ said of his followers that “they are in Life, but not of Life”. I think the big JC had some attitude problems and was NOT PERFECT. Why is Christianity so elitist and sectarian (especially the fundamentilist ones)?….

Nigel

34. James Mclemore - October 8, 2009

Earlier I posted that most people here had seen “ENOUGH”.
It seems that what many people saw ‘enough’ of, besides perhaps the beginning to get glimpses of Burton’s rather obvious shortcomings and illnesses, were that the ideas that they had been given just led in circles. It bares repeating what was just said by surelyujest……..

20. surelyujest

“But in myself and others, I saw life becoming entangled, complicated, filled with unnecessary things that didn’t lead to a way out, but led to still more entanglements”

35. rock that boat - October 9, 2009

5. Crouching Tiger: I recall my last few months in the fellowship, and it was not the weight of evidence, even on the Blog, that took me out. It was emerging out of that meeting with D-rian into the cold winter night, exhaling into the air and knowing, as I stood there, that he was a fake.

Thank you Tiger! I had a similar experience, but with Ass-f, one day I saw right through him, this smart Israeli boy, with his photographic memory, storing knowledge as if preparing for a quiz show, without any BEING to back it up!

Ex army guy, ex- lover of RB, current bigamist, and …… an other- emperor without – clothes- type. That was my time to call it quits.

36. Bares Reposting - October 9, 2009

Just when FoF blog seemed to be getting dull, poof!, Daily Cardiac appears to stir things up, again! Thank you, DC.

31. James Mclemore:

’23. Daily Cardiac

You said in reference to posters on this blog, that they…….

“claim to know everything there is to know about the FoF/RB.”

In my memory, no such claim has ever been made. What is being said and indicated over and over, is that they know enough.’

Yes, and,
Old Jewish proverb: ‘Enough is too much.’

34. James Mclemore:

‘Earlier I posted that most people here had seen “ENOUGH”.
It seems that what many people saw ‘enough’ of, besides perhaps the beginning to get glimpses of Burton’s rather obvious shortcomings and illnesses, were that the ideas that they had been given just led in circles. It bares repeating what was just said by surelyujest……..

20. surelyujest

“But in myself and others, I saw life becoming entangled, complicated, filled with unnecessary things that didn’t lead to a way out, but led to still more entanglements”’

Yes, and,
Old Jewish proverb: ‘Enough is too much.’

35. rock that boat:

‘I had a similar experience, but with Ass-f, one day I saw right through him, this smart Israeli boy, with his photographic memory, storing knowledge as if preparing for a quiz show, without any BEING to back it up!

Ex army guy, ex-lover of RB, current bigamist, and …… an other- emperor without – clothes- type. That was my time to call it quits.

Yes, Ass-off,
Old Jewish proverb: ‘Enough is too much.’

Put that in your sequence and smoke it.

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
Upton Sinclair

37. Yesri Baba - October 9, 2009

“Speaking for myself, I see that a major corrupting influence within me was the feeling of being special, chosen, no matter if it was ever-so-humbly referred to as ‘our luck’ or ‘our good fortune’ in the many toasts.”

This ‘feeling’ of being special and the formulaic categorization of ourselves, regardless of the relative truth of the categories, blinded us to how uniquely special we truly are. We are the faces of God.

38. James Mclemore - October 9, 2009

37. Yesri Baba

Thank you for that Yesri. The thought came, “What a mystery”, and one that we can never stand outside of. It would seem that even all the lies, no matter how outlandish, that can go on inside of us in regards to our imaginary pictures of ourselves, no matter how distorted they may become, are still somehow reflections of some aspect of a much, much larger Truth.

39. nige - October 9, 2009

38 James Mclemore

Personally, I do not abstract my spititual life from my work-a-day one. You may find it interesting to read up on the 6th Chakra or the Seal of Solomon (in Biblical terms – a new Heaven and a new Earth). Then you will find that the Truth is what we should be living – about who we actually are and what we should be doing…..Nigel.

40. lauralupa - October 9, 2009

Just what we need – more words…

I just found a new expression to expand my (and your) vocabulary:
“Fetishing the trigger”

“There was once a prisoner who yearned for freedom. One day, the prophet Mohammed appeared to him, and gave him a set of keys to his cell, saying “Your piety has been rewarded. Allah has set you free.” So the prisoner took the set of keys, mounted them on the wall, and prayed to them five times a day.” a Sufi tale

…It would be easy to say, “well, they’ve got God wrong.” But on what grounds? I have a spiritual experience, so do they. What is happening is real. These people are pulling a trigger, and experiencing the Divine. But then, and here I think is the point, they fetishize the trigger.
Fetishizing the trigger is when a trigger (e.g., a holy land, an asana, whatever) gives you a real spiritual experience, but you then make the mistake of thinking it’s all about the trigger. The finger points at the moon, but wow, how about that finger! And fetishizing means: it’s only this trigger, this trigger is the point, this trigger is better than others. Or: it’s these words, it’s this Torah, this posture, this antioxidant, this vision, this tool, this medicine, this politics, these souls, this place, these people. It’s that turn, that move — that fetishizing of the trigger — that causes the distortion. Now the entire world is seen through the prism of the trigger. Now the trigger is reified into an objectively real reality. The reality.

…You feel good after doing something, so you value the something that brought you there, whether it’s a meditation practice, a territory, or a car. We fetishize our own triggers all the time, which is why we’re constantly trying to arrange the conditions for our happiness.
Yet fetishizing the trigger is also confusion. The tools of religion are meant to lead to liberation — mysticism, love, and contemplation — but then they get ossified if we forget that you’re not supposed to worship a key; you’re supposed to put it in a door and turn. In other words, you’re supposed to liberate yourself, experience the Divine, leave the prison cell of separate self and merge into your true reality. But the key is so powerful, especially when it is turned and these wonderful liberations, these beautiful ecstatic feelings, really do arise! How could you not fetishize it, worship it, and treat it as unique in the world? There is real juice in spiritual practice, and that is its danger as well as its attraction. So, at the very least, we have to be more careful than most. Spiritual “juice” infuses everything — including very dumb and dangerous ideas.
…Of course, we should allow ourselves the joys of ecstasy. But it’s the same imputation of value onto whatever experience seems most to resonate that engenders the mysticism of absolutes. Systems, dogmas, and codes belong in the realm of the relative, and relative tools — cool reflection, ethical reasoning — are the best ones for evaluating them. Transcendent experiences go beyond that realm, and reductive reasoning can be as much hindrance as help. Combining the two is the idolatry of fetishization.”

from http://www.realitysandwich.com/fetishizing_trigger

41. James Mclemore - October 9, 2009

39. nige

Not certain where you see the ‘abstracting’ going on. I’m a little lost as to your post.
However. you said…….

“Then you will find that the Truth is what we should be living – about who we actually are and what we should be doing”…..Nigel.

I find agreement with that middle one – “about who we actually are”
I am not sure about those ‘shoulds’ though.

42. WhaleRider - October 9, 2009

lauralupa:

…or in the case of FOF followers, they fetishize the trigger man.

Thanks for your perspective.

43. lauralupa - October 9, 2009

Maybe you are already familiar with it, but I was recently introduced by one of my favorite blogs to the Ukranian women-warrior cult of Asgarda:
http://accidentalmysteries.blogspot.com/2009/09/dont-need-any-stinkin-men.html

Kateryna Vitaliyivna Tarnovska, the resident guru, is such a great Nemesis for Burton that I can’t help pleasurably imagining a fighting match between the two, Kill Bill style. Even more grandiose would be an all-out war between the Powerful Ukranian Girls and Pretty Russian Boys teams…
oooh, ouch, watch out for those sharp swords and sickles guys,
and try not to leave any bloodstains on your Armani suits

long live Black Mamba!

44. Ellen - October 9, 2009

#40, Lauralupa,
Great perspective. Thanks for that!!! Reality Sandwich has lots of interesting articles.

page 83, #297, Jomo

Thanks for the further passage from K&A. It fleshes out their perspective. I can understand that their thinking has had a strong influence upon you. Also that the fruits of their intensive thought, experience and research correlates rather well with your own. So, of course you tend to trust them and it. That’s how trust works. We find something that expands our own boundaries bringing with it an experience of joy and release from unnecessary constrictions. This can occur on many different levels, i.e. not just intellectual, but nevertheless, the intellect is a powerful, often under utilized way for one human being to communicate with another.

My criticism of their perspective relates to its limitations. They chose to criticize the social-historical-religious context of power, by tracing the consequences that arise through the misunderstanding of a number of key spiritual concepts and phenomena. They did not choose to understand those key concepts, rather they chose to criticize the repercussions of those misunderstandings. Fine. I get that. And of course, their critique fits well, like a glove to the hand of the Fellowship of Friends and the abuses of Robert Burton.

But I do not refer to K&A for any insight relating to a right understanding of those same key concepts. If they have it, they don’t write of it, at least I didn’t them speak of any possible right understanding of for example, the terms, “renunciation” or “enlightenment” or “oneness”, except to nod that perhaps there might be a different understanding, untainted by the corruptions of power, out there somewhere in the world. Thus, I think of their critique as belonging to a level of conditioned, almost political analysis but not to that of philosophy or spirituality. In that sense I consider their thinking itself as limited and to my mind woefully inadequate.

45. James Mclemore - October 9, 2009

40. lauralupa

Hi lauralupa –

I found there to be some interesting and useful things in that. It coincides in some ways with things I find myself looking at lately. I sort of like the rather comic picture of how we might carry around keys that we do not try in the lock, or perhaps polish our boats while we imagine crossing a river in them. I liked that, “The finger points at the moon, but wow, how about that finger!”
I think it was Alan Watts who said something like, ‘after you have received your next bit of information or insight – don’t forget to hang up the phone’. Maps, even if you happen to have one, seem to become obsolete quickly. Yesterday’s insight may be of little help this afternoon. I am not exactly sure just what and what part that ‘spiritual juice’ is / plays, but my mind certainly does like labels and names and then sort of plays a game where it forgets they are just labels and not the unexplainable thing itself.
There are times where something can sense a part of the thinking mind that seems it would very much like to find some permanent place to stand, but it just does not look like there is one.

46. Mikey - October 9, 2009

A couple more definitions and then maybe a story
-The Theatrical Company Analogy, Part A.

karma – (from Sanskrit): Action; the legacy and imprint of action, which gives rise to the chain of cause and effect; fate. Karma Yoga is one of the four yogas, along with Dnyan, Bhakti, and Raj.

yoga – (from Sanskrit): Connection, union; a discipline of meditation undertaken to bring the soul toward union with the Supreme Spirit.

Warning! Stories tend to use words; whether or not they are true is another story.

47. Mikey - October 9, 2009

Rod Stewart once asked:
“Every picture tells a story, don’t it?”

48. Mikey - October 9, 2009

To that eternal question an obscure philosopher wisely retorted:
“Do I have to paint you a picture?”

49. Jomo Piñata - October 9, 2009

44/Ellen

In that sense I consider their thinking itself as limited and to my mind woefully inadequate.

Ken Wilber described their perspective, if I can recall the exact words, as “breathtakingly shallow.” I believe I may have heard this from them. I have not read any critique by Ken Wilber of their perspective, but if I found one I would read it and consider it.

I don’t know whether you are right or wrong about their failure to understand certain things. You might be right, I don’t know. I’ve abandoned the attempt to create big maps of the spiritual universe, and the nature of your criticism is, I think, linked to the proposition that there are big, accurate maps, but A & K are writing about the social and political repercussions of misunderstanding those maps. Is that an accurate characterization of your criticism?

I can say that the claim that a critic simply doesn’t understand, or misunderstands, certain principles can serve to deflect the force of critique. Didn’t we say that frequently about people who left? That they stopped understanding? Isn’t there a history of that in the Gurdjieffian tradition? (I’m not saying you’re doing that with your response.)

A & K’s writing is political writing for sure. It speaks truth to power residing in the individual person. In so doing, it empowered me, helped to effect a transformation in me fifteen years ago. My perception is, the empowerment it effected is fundamentally a spiritual one, rooted in self-trust.

50. surelyujest - October 9, 2009

There was a certain type of person I ran into in the Fellowship, one who, in the name of “struggling against feminine dominance,” suddenly found themselves feeling free to cheat, lie, steal or simply treat others shabbily or even cruelly — as long as they were sleeping machines, the awful life people. I remember viewing them suspiciously even then…their new-found freedom seemed awfully self-serving. Some would justify it with Ouspensky’s quote, “you have to get worse before you get better,” or something like that.

Looking at it now, I would say that you can’t rise above your previous level if you spend a considerable amount of time below it — and below what is considered normal decency. Robert justifies himself by saying he is free from the laws of ordinary morality. Anyone finding himself justifying his behavior along these lines ought to be taking the object lesson of Burton’s criminal behavior more to heart. And for anyone thinking this descent is a temporary way station on the road to grand evolution — how can you go up if you’re pointed down? Plus, if you’ve been stuck in the same behavioral rut for years on end, it’s more than just a phase — you are stuck in a bad place, probably worse off than before you started this so-called “evolution.”

It’s so easy to criticize others, and so easy to let oneself off the hook, no?

51. nige - October 9, 2009

41 James Mclemore

I guess I was trying to not be self-referential but, if it might help, I will be….

When I was ‘mixed up’ with our common cult, I was also trying to train myself to be the best precious metal craftsman I could be. I had to go to California and put myself through other people’s workshops and businesses to achieve this and this meant having a piffling salary wherever I went. When ‘the crunch’ came in June of 1989 and I had run out of money to ‘fling at’ the FOF and I had already run up debts of over $30,000, I was so depressed and stressed that I made my very serious suicide attempt. Why was I saved? Some in the FOF thought that it was C-Influence who engineered the whole episode and that I should, as soon as possible, ‘come back to the fold’. One student, who has since left herself, was overwhelmed with glee when I told her I was involved with computers (this was on my first teacher-training course). Now I realise that ‘angelic beings’, who command our fate, had in mind that I should have to go through a great deal of spiritual purification (14 years from leaving the cult, in fact) until coming back to the ‘reflection of myself’ in teaching my craft. Without wishing to be ‘gushy’ about it, there is more beauty in my life than I could ever have realised, more real friends, stronger compassionate bonds with my family and a chance to contribute to the community (and, as we know, giving brings great happiness!). Thus, I am doing what I should be doing, and being spritually rewarded for it…..Nigel.

52. brucelevy - October 9, 2009

40. lauralupa

Nice. Thanks.

53. Tatyana - October 9, 2009

Is it fair to compare FOF with a show business?

There is no need to be an honest person, generous, fair, or conscious in a show business. What is needed – a performance. The show must go on. When you look at the beautiful ballerinas flying on the stage you don’t think of how they behave behind the stage! How they treat their helpers, what play of power and vanity holds it all together! But, do we care? As long as it is beautiful on the stage, and I don’t need to help dressing ballerinas – I personally don’t care.

FOF’s show is for those who pays. The “stage”, the flower arrangement, the catering, the service, the dress up, the musicians… Ah! Who cares what is going on behind the stage! Who sleeps with whom, who gets the short end of a stick…

The only difference between a traditional show and FOF show is that staff gets paid. And in FOF staff does it for free. Only one person gets paid – the main “ballerina” ( in the male’s body )…

54. sallymcnally - October 9, 2009

#50 surelyoujest

‘And for anyone thinking this descent is a temporary way station on the road to grand evolution — how can you go up if you’re pointed down?’

I like this

55. Ellen - October 9, 2009

#49, Jomo,
Actually, I do give them credit for a deeper understanding, but they seem to have taken a strong external position for reasons that in the social-religous-political sphere are clear enough. I remind myself that the book was written 1994. Geez, there is tons of time between then and now to look at things differently.

Yes, I get it that the book was a huge empowerment for you and for many other people. It has been quoted extensively here – and for good reason. In the end, self trust may be the only ground we can stand on. (The only problem is that it may be infinitely groundless.)

I don’t really think in terms of absolute objective maps any more, but I do keep my heart and mind open to resonating wisdom.

56. Jomo Piñata - October 9, 2009

55/Ellen

I agree with what you say. Let me respond to this little piece:

In the end, self trust may be the only ground we can stand on. (The only problem is that it may be infinitely groundless.)

I had a writing professor who liked to say, “you can’t run and shoot yourself in the foot at the same time.”

57. Daisy-Jane - October 9, 2009

# 53 – Tatyana

“Is it fair to compare FOF with a show business.”

Shortly before I left, St_v_n D_mb_ck said to me in a low voice,
‘Robert’s dinners and events – they are just a show. ‘

No kidding! And the show must go on……

58. nige - October 9, 2009

57 Daisy-Jane

Getting high on dining, classical impressions and perverted sex!…..Nigel.

59. veramente - October 9, 2009

57 Daisy Jane
Perhaps S.D. is wanting to exit the fof? If he knows so well about dinners and events being just a show why is he sticking around?

There could be a possible esoteric explanation for his statement which seems to contradict his faithfulness to the FOF.
Like imagining the form being the show while behind some kind of reality curtains something of a higher order, divine in fact, could be going on.
Years ago I could have reasoned this way, making things work my way to fit my belief system to make me feel good and secure.

——-
Welcome back Lauralupa!
Thank you all for the conversations going on lately.

————–
23 Daily Cardiac
Could you possibly be a Daily Dick? We/I just love to ab-use you!
And yes, we/I know more than you can ever imagine!

60. another name - October 9, 2009

Woooh so many questions in the blog entrees?

I am getting more and more suspicious of words and “finger pointers….do this do that. Thanks for the great articles.

For Daily Cardiac and others read thios article on how to get starry eyed…

http://www.human-nature.com/nibbs/02/cults.html

61. lauralupa - October 9, 2009

hi again you beautifuls. hi am just back from an amazing ayahuasca ceremony, my eigth, and finally have some extra energy to spare.
Check out this cool trippy hippy video, it was made in 1984, the same year I joined the FoF…
If only I could have known!
Now I know more than enough, and life keeps on flashing before my eyes!

62. Tatyana - October 9, 2009

I found this posting on another blog, and it amazed me how close this is to the “food” my “magnetic center” was fed on. I am sorry, it is a little juvenile and long, but if some of you could comment on this I would appreciate it a lot!

“That was IT ?! This was her birthday speech?

The Birthday Speech was a long-standing tradition on the team I worked with where we shared with everyone what we learned in the last year.

It had become quite the event, with folks even bringing in poems and inspirational readings. It was always uplifting and we all tried to be profound (when we weren’t trying to get out of it).

Now, the gauntlet had been thrown down.

Life Is Empty and Meaningless.

We looked around at each other, quick sideways glances. Surely she must be joking! A few nervous twitters were heard.

Maybe she’s just a little depressed on her birthday?

She can’t mean this, not really. We love her, her life has all kinds of meaning! Should we be worried?? Meanwhile, there she sat, serene and looking faintly amused at the head of the table.

It’s true, she said. Life IS empty and meaningless.

It is WE who take it and decide, for ourselves what our own lives will mean. There isn’t really a set of rules or a blueprint that you follow, or some book somewhere that is going to tell YOU what YOUR life means. You just have a big blank sheet, and probably a LOT more freedom that you realize or could ever be comfortable with, to create this life however you want. To make it mean whatever you want.

How do you deal with the responsibility, and gift, of having a whole life to create, or to fritter away? It’s funny really, when you stand back and look. I think life scares the heck out of people. We live in a world that is doing it’s level best to keep us occupied so we forget about our choices and forget to live. (I mean, what would it do to the economy if we were actually content and fulfilled?)

I had a reader contact me last month who told me she took her TV out of her entertainment room. She said it was a small step. I think that was HUGE! I wonder how many of us would be willing to do that? I know several folks who have had some portion of their lives planned around their favorite TV shows. I’ll admit it, Jon Stewart ends our day here. It feels “off” somehow when we bypass him.

I’m not here to pick on TV (where is the challenge in that?), but it’s a fine illustrative point. It’s VERY easy to go on automatic pilot, filling our lives with all the clutter, the TV shows, the stuff we have to buy because it was on sale, the junk mail we stack up that clogs all kinds of space,the e-mail jokes we send to each other that makes us feel like we are communicating when actually we haven’t at all…and don’t even get me started on my blogging jones!

So why do we embrace clutter? (Yes, I said embrace.) I think it’s because it protects us from the fact that life IS empty and meaningless. (Note: I didn’t say YOUR life or MY life. I simply said LIFE.) It keeps us safe from the responsibility of really living consciously and deliberately and making this trip worthwhile. We keep ourselves distant from ourselves and from each other with our busyness and stuff.

Note: I didn’t say that ALL activity, including blogging is inherently clutter, but you know darn well that some of it is. We don’t always separate the wheat from the chaff.

I’ll confess, I’m not always good at this, myself. It is scarey how many hours I can lose in front of this computer. I have developed a nasty habit of turning it on over the weekend, breaking a vow to myself that I really need to reinstitute. It’s sooo easy to feed one part of oneself (a hungry, curious mind, for example)and get out of balance without even realizing it. If we don’t keep conscious of the reality that our lives are non-renewable resources and choose our activities consciously we can accidentally lose an awful lot of ourselves to bright shiny objects that don’t amount to much in the end.

We have to practice discernment and choose for ourselves what will have meaning. What is relevant and worthy of the time we choose to give over to it.

In Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead, Roark, an architect, is meeting with prospective clients who are telling him what they want, or, more accurately, what they think they want due to cultural and societal influences. Roark, is quite outside the mainstream so he’s been offending the sensibilities of the community. Well, as he is listening he draws the conclusions “There is no such person as ‘X'”, (meaning they are just an empty container filled with all the opinions of their friends and society.)

That’s a pretty sobering thought. What IS filling your container? WHO is filling it? YOU or someone else? Do YOU exist?

You used to be an empty vessel. So did I.

You, and I, have been filled to overflowing with many, many messages about what it takes to make it in the world. What we need, what we should want, what is appropriate, or not for our behavior, for our goals, for our needs, for our desires. It’s VERY hard to clean that stuff out. I don’t know how possible it is to clean it ALL out. Some of us have a hard enough time keeping the tops of our desk clean!

So, if my friend was right, and I tend, at this point, to think she was–if life is empty and meaningless–it is up to you to create something with the portion you have given.

Make sure that you exist.

It matters. “

63. Tatyana - October 9, 2009

I think it is written by a teenager, probably a girl, who is bored with her life and enjoys attitudes like “Life is meaningless” “we embrace clutter” “we were an empty container” “give up TV” etc. But, man! How irritating all this is for me, because this is exactly what lead me to the cult! This is the “school material”. But, hey, maybe this is true? Maybe kids need to go through cult experience in order to sort out what is meaningful and what is not in their lives and grow up? And this is a troublesome thought.

64. I Know - October 10, 2009

23. Daily Cardiac – October 8, 2009
“But in a larger context I wonder how Wittgenstein’s maxim applies to the 83 plus pages of comments by ex members who, in no uncertain terms, claim to know everything there is to know about the FoF/RB.”

It doesn’t apply, yet does it matter? ‘Knowing everything there is to know about the FoF/RB’ is imaginary. What does it mean “Everything there is to know”?

Behind the smoke there is fire. It is evident that there are some people here who are evoking heavy smoke just for the sake of it. Still there is fire behind the smoke. The heavy smoke prevents an unprejudiced discussion about the FoF and RB and it does not allow an examination of the nature of the fire.

If one relates to RB sexual conduct, be it highly graphic or not, there is fire behind the smoke and no matter how much you disregard it, it is there.

I do agree that it is almost impossible to objectively evaluate RB teaching, especially in the last 4-5 years, because it is more symbolic and in a way more artistic. I have personally seen that such kind of teaching is valid in very particular context and circumstances, or a state of consciousness. It is almost out of context outside the FoF. Even inside the FoF there are many members who are not connected to it.

The criticism against the teaching here is a collection of subjective opinions that I think leads nowhere. To my opinion it weakens the main point and that is the public aspects of RB sexual conduct.

If you are sincere you can relate to that aspect.

65. WhaleRider - October 10, 2009

Complete Idiot’s Guide to Sex with Your Guru

by Stephen Dumbfuck and Asswipe Depraverman

Introduction

In order to boost our dismal second line of work, we decided to publish this little pamphlet to “soften the blow” (so to speak) for the new arrivals who have just fallen off the pirozhki truck. Please bear in mind that you are incredibly lucky to be here and beeee chosen to participate in the wonderfully enlightening Homosexual Octave here at lovely Apollo. We want to be your friend! OK?

If you are especially compliant, you may even have a Cyprus tree named in your honor like we have.

Chapter 1.

The Mystical Keys:

There are several mystical key concepts that you must bear in mind in order to stomach what is about to happen to you.

1. You are so special and so incredibly lucky! Of all the billions of people on earth you have been specially selected by higher forces due to all your hard inner work to be a sexual toy of our great guru, something you can be proud of for the rest of your lifetimes! Think of the stories you will tell your grandchildren, if you are allowed to have any!

2. You are worthless a piece of shit. You are so asleep you don’t even realize it, you soulless mechanical idiot. At any given moment your lower self could overtake your higher self and shake you from our glorious cult like a mouse in a cat’s teeth, so you had better do as you are told and shut the fuck up or we’ll ship you back to Siberia. REMEMBER YOURSELF and the hundreds of other incredibly lucky guys just like you being groomed at this very moment to take your place. Here’s your shovel, start digging.

3. If it feels good, it must be good. The sensations that the guru produces in your stupid machine will feel good. Therefore they are good. Good for you, good for the guru and good for all us.

You know that jerking off feels good only for a few moments and then you feel bad, right? That’s because pleasuring your self is bad. Thinking of yourself is bad. What good does that serve…it only serves your lower self. The guru knows this and wants to free you of this guilt out of the eternal kindness of his heart.

You must only think of pleasing him. Being with him is his special gift to you that he has to labor for on your behalf and from which he receives absolutely no pleasure. OK, maybe a little pleasure, but it is such hard work for him, so rejoice that you won’t ever have to jerk off again as long as you are in his special divine presence.

4. Your wife or girlfriend is expendable. Don’t let a female get in the way of your pathway to paradise. It’s OK to have one or even two, but it doesn’t matter in the larger context what she thinks or feels about what happens at Apollo. In fact what happens in Apollo, stays in Apollo. She can be easily replaced by another younger female unit who will keep her mouth shut and won’t ask any silly questions like, “Honey, will you be coming home after the dinner with the guru tonight…or are you using protection?”

5. Divide and conquer! Conscience is part of the negative lower self. It’s just a collection of silly thoughts. You must deny any negative thought whatsoever from your lower self that thinks what you or the guru is doing is wrong. He is always right. How could it be wrong when the guru is so rich, and tall, and has been doing this for so many years? Do you hear anyone around here complaining…so why should you? Complainers are just full of pussy dominance and the guru will not tolerate that. Using the thought blocking sequence of thirty canine commands several times a day will blot out all negative thought. We will tell you what your higher self should think.

6. Remember that all octaves have intervals. The guru is aware of this, too. You must never say no to any of the guru’s perverted sexual desires, no matter how gross, but if you sometimes ACT moody or depressed about your sexual slavery to the guru, or play hard to get, he will reward you with trips around the world and expensive gifts, or at least some Darvon or good wine. You have no money of your own, so take what you can get.

7. The guru’s favorite sexual position is placing you in the juxtaposition of having more power over you and knowing that in your powerlessness you can’t do anything about it. You either suck it up or leave. Of course, nobody is holding a gun to your head like in Russia; you are free to leave any time you wish and burn in hell, if your lower self decides for you to do so. Don’t listen to any part of your lower self, just remember, there is no room for the gag response in eternal paradise.

Chapter 2.
Enjoy Yourself as the Guru Enjoys You!

It’s OK to do as the guru does. There was a time in the cult’s early dark days when that wasn’t the case, but times have changed and we are so much more evolved now. We have the sequence of 30 canine commands to block out all negative thoughts!

So go forth, fuck, and be present! You can have as much sex with as many other followers as you like, just like the guru does…just not with anyone else outside the cult, unless you can use it as leverage for them to eventually join the cult. But whatever you do, don’t smoke a cigarette either before or after sex, unless it is a marijuana cigarette which enables your dick to stay hard longer.

Chapter 3.
Make Your Mandatory Donation on Time.

The guru has a schedule to keep, places better than Apollo to go, people better than you to see, new cuff links to buy, and an American Express payment to make! There are so many dicks and so little time! All the efforts the guru makes on his pathway to penises costs money. So if the guru gets bored of you and you are asked to go forth and get a real job, then by all means just go forth and make as much money as you can, doing whatever you can, so we here sitting on salary at Apollo don’t have to do the same.

If you happen to meet any new young, naive, cute male followers that you feel might be better candidates than you for the wonderful homosexual octave here at lovely Apollo, you may be redeemed by secretly letting either myself or Asswipe know of the candidate’s location so that we may curry favor with the guru by informing him of our incredible luck. You may be rewarded with ticket for free standing room at a dinner with the guru!

Epilogue

We’d like you to feel eternally grateful and beholden to us for our efforts to better inform you of your spiritual duties as the guru’s newest flavor of the week. The rest is between you and him, and possibly a few other guys who might be asked join in at the same time.

You may be intentionally and consciously asked to do things you never would have ever done before in order to stretch your being and other body parts. But don’t worry; be happy. It’s all for your own evolution!

You are so lucky! There was a period in the cult’s recent history when nobody said anything to anyone about what goes on behind closed doors at Apollo, and if they did they were asked to leave. Poor lost souls! So keep your mouth shut and your nose plugged, unless you are taking only wordless breaths!

I Know, I’ve been there.

66. Yesri Baba - October 10, 2009

“Behind the smoke there is fire. It is evident that there are some people here who are evoking heavy smoke just for the sake of it. Still there is fire behind the smoke. The heavy smoke prevents an unprejudiced discussion about the FoF and RB and it does not allow an examination of the nature of the fire.”

It’s a friggin’ Inferno.

————————————–

“I do agree that it is almost impossible to objectively evaluate RB teaching, especially in the last 4-5 years, because it is more symbolic and in a way more artistic. I have personally seen that such kind of teaching is valid in very particular context and circumstances, or a state of consciousness”

What state makes retarded bullshit valid? Maybe if you smoke crack for five days without any sleep….

67. Yesri Baba - October 10, 2009

I Know-

I do so hope that you and Daily Fartattack have a lengthy debate on the finer points of the ‘teaching’. That would be a riot.

68. Crouching Tiger - October 10, 2009

I know.

“The criticism against the teaching here is a collection of subjective opinions that I think leads nowhere. To my opinion it weakens the main point and that is the public aspects of RB sexual conduct.”

The basis of nearly all the criticism of RB’s ‘teaching’ is that he’s simply teaching what he is, he’s teaching Burtonism. He is the result of his teaching and its living embodiment – sexual conduct ‘n all…
So first, you have to remove the fallacy that his teaching somehow can be abstracted from his being and judged on its own merits, or given an independent value. And his behaviour is the direct result of his being. If you like what he teaches, it means that there’s something you like about the man and his values, even if you are unaware of it right now… That discovery only dawned on me quite slowly.

Secondly, remove the fallacy that Burton’s teaching is somehow based on the 4th Way – unless you consider that having read a couple of workbooks qualified him to do that. It doesn’t really matter what the ultimate value of the 4th Way is, the point is simply that RB was never part of the 4th Way tradition, and that’s how the fellowship has always advertised itself, in the main. It is also the reason why the vast majority of us joined. Certain essential elements like the Movements, for example, are totally absent in the fellowship, although they are probably the single most important part of Gurdjieff’s approach.

The connection to the 4th Way through Alex Horn has already been shown to be spurious in many previous posts. Horn was never more than on the outer fringe of one of Bennett’s groups, until he was asked to leave. Then Horn kicked Burton out of his own group because he couldn’t follow an exercise not to pursue other men in the group. So Burton rubberstamped himself as a 4th Way teacher in less-than-glorious isolation, he never grew organically out of a living oral tradition – as for example someone like Nisargadatta did.

From my own experience of the different forms of 4th Way teaching, I would have to say that Burtonism can only encourage psychopathy. I don’t believe it is in any sense an organic teaching through which the whole of a person can evolve. The 4th Way is nothing to do with trying to induce ‘higher states’ and believing that multiplying these will ‘grow a soul’. It is about reawakening the contact between different intelligences within the body wherever it has been lost, letting the sensitivity to them grow, and allowing the body to evolve at its own pace under instruction from those intelligences.

69. Crouching Tiger - October 10, 2009

To add a couple of simple examples of how the teaching is inextricable from the teacher.

1. Towards the end of my own journey through the fellowship, there was a big emphasis placed by RB on ‘control of the passions’ that occurred at almost every meeting. So ask yourself the simplest question, ‘How can I relate this teaching to RB’s mode of being/behaviour?’ Is there any way that you can apply this bit of teaching to yourself, with RB as its medium? Is there any way in which he can be said to have applied it to himself?

2. There is also a big deal made of RB’s response to his mother’s dying request that he visit her hospital bedside. RB’s negative response is interpreted as ‘practising non-identification’ or ‘working against feminine dominance’. Might it not be that he was still in the grip of some negative feeling towards his mother? Does it make sense for one of his students to use this as an example of how to understand the idea of non-identification?

In both cases, one thing is said, another thing is enacted. People tend to trust and imitate the behaviour that they see. Control of the passions taken to mean that it’s okay to have a lot of bizarre, power-driven sex behind the scenes while maintaining a serene outward face of ‘someone in the work’. Non-identification meaning that you simply cut yourself from friends and family (especially the female members) and have no further contact with them at all (internally and externally). These are not healthy results.

Like it or not, this is what his students are learning from RB, and what they will continue to learn until they leave.

70. nige - October 10, 2009

68 Crouching Tiger

“From my own experience of the different forms of 4th Way teaching, I would have to say that Burtonism can only encourage psychopathy. I don’t believe it is in any sense an organic teaching through which the whole of a person can evolve. The 4th Way is nothing to do with trying to induce ‘higher states’ and believing that multiplying these will ‘grow a soul’. It is about reawakening the contact between different intelligences within the body wherever it has been lost, letting the sensitivity to them grow, and allowing the body to evolve at its own pace under instruction from those intelligences.”

This is the single most outstanding comment I have read this morning. My aim, before joining the Fellowship, was to make contact with these ‘higher states’ and have realised them, at times, thanks to my bipolar disorder. Other bloggers have maintained that these states are not permanent and come and go. This has been true for me and certainly, for practical living reasons, I do not see how anyone would want them all the time. Maybe Burton had a ‘high state’ and tries to keep it, through all his perverse behaviour, whilst, as CT points out, the 4th way tries to make right connection between intelligences and to allow the body sensitivity to grow in a balanced way (sorry CT – felt I had to paraphrase). I have found, in my day-to-day state, that these connections can be made and the memories of ‘higher states’ can help, although not indulged in. I think it was Ouspensky himself who stated that “the higher parts of centres are more closely connected than the lower parts, and this is especially true in artistic creation” (again, paraphrase). It has also been extremely rewarding, and adding to growth, that I pursue Critical Analysis and Reflective Practice in my work with the Academy of Precious Metal Arts, since you are a teacher, not merely by stating the fact, but by the efficiency of your methods to PROMOTE LEARNING. AND THIS IS WHY REB IS A PSYCHOPATH – HE IS ADDICTED TO OWNING THINGS (BOTH PEOPLE AND POSSESSIONS), ADDICTED TO HAVING ATTENTION LAVISHED UPON HIM AND ADDICTED TO PERVERTED SEX!!!!! Such is his (extremely low) level of being…..Nigel.

71. Bares Reposting - October 10, 2009

84/59. veramente:
’57 Daisy Jane
Perhaps S.D. is wanting to exit the fof? If he knows so well about dinners and events being just a show why is he sticking around?. . .’

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
Upton Sinclair

4th way spin on that Upton Sinclair quote:

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his imaginary picture of himself depends upon his not understanding it.

84/68. Crouching Tiger:
‘he never grew organically out of a living oral tradition. . .’

Yes, he did. He grew organically out of a living oral sex tradition.’

72. Mikey - October 10, 2009

At last (Eureka), the perfect quotation and perfect timing for this Blog from none other than Meher Baba Himself. Those who don’t believe in perfection are also free.
“[Man’s] long-drawn sojourn through the wilderness of dual existence is a story of repeated blunders, ever tightening the grip of ignorance on his consciousness. An easy prey to the guiles of Mayavic mirage, he gets enmeshed in its clutches. He goes astray in the feverish dreams of his vitiated imagination, with little prospect of launching on his homeward journey. However, by a stroke of good luck, which is God’s grace, he may stumble upon an exit through these mazes and get a glimmer of the limitlessness of the real.
But just at this juncture, he proves vulnerable to the temptation of becoming a pretentious and preposterous claimant sailing under false colors and arrogating to himself the truth of his dim perception. It is an abortive attempt at seizing the Truth. He only succeeds in being a magniloquent imitation, puffed up with invalid claims. He encroaches on the fields of the real saints, bluffing each and all whom he meets. But he is thereby only fooling himself and he moves further into the grips of the false.”
– From the essay “From Eternity to Eternity”, an officially approved publication in 1958. (Even though he never wrote since 1926 nor spoke since 1925).

73. ton - October 10, 2009

64 “i know” wrote among other things:

“The criticism against the teaching here is a collection of subjective opinions that I think leads nowhere. To my opinion it weakens the main point and that is the public aspects of RB sexual conduct.”

(Yesri, CT, nige, thanks for taking the time to point out the idiocy of the above).

“I Know” —
here are a few general ‘subjective opinions’ for you; personally i like being ‘subjective’ and my sense of self does not depend on this idiotic notion that the ‘objective’ is ‘superior’ or preferable to the ‘subjective.’ (consider that anything that you might deem ‘objective’ is being filtered through your ‘subjectivity’ anyway). once-upon-a-time you you were mother’s little darling, then years later you sipped the burton-flavored kool-aide and so you now profess your belief that you’re ‘special’ and onto something above the ‘subjective;’ this is a reflection of delusion. it is delusion rooted in vanity, which is purposefully cultivated and carefully fed by burtonism…. it’s a form of ‘sleep’ burtonism relies on. by feeding your vanity, by fostering the notion that you are ‘special’ and part of a select and exclusive group which is privy to something that stands apart from and above the ‘subjective’, burton is able to get vain little suckers like you to pay for his arch-vainglorious-absurdly-insane excesses and extravagances.

you may have physically left your mommy’s teat, you may have left the fof, yet you carry such subtle and unsubtle poisons within you… you feel you have to try to justify your affiliation and membership in the cult by separating the teacher from the teaching…. that’s a load of bullcrap, it excuses what burton and his little project is all about. to me, any/ all burton apologists are vile, repugnant, and you make me sick with your silly mechanical pseudo-‘intellectual’ manipulations attempting to rationalize what you believe you ‘know’ by separating teacher from teaching… there is no justifying, you are lying to yourself in order to support what you cherish most, that is your own vanity, which masquerades here in the guise of an acquired ‘4th way teaching.’ because of your position on the matter everything you have to say is absolute bullshit.

p.s. re: your moniker ‘i know’ — suggests what your problem is… it is exactly that, what you ‘know’ or more precisely what you think you know. some friendly advice: first discover and then examine what you don’t know… that should keep you busy for at least a lifetime and maybe (hopefully) redirect your INANE NONSENSE.

74. brucelevy - October 10, 2009

75. another name - October 10, 2009

Dear I know and daily cardiac (TF) and others.

Please read up on memes and I hope you can expand your perspectives.

http://www.holysmoke.org/kh/kh-sex_drugs_and_cults.pdf

Summary of the article ( a must when you were in one way or another involved in a cult/ school/ spiritual group.

Will give you info so people are able to make amore informed decision. Is n’t that freedom?

ideologies, etc.) have no obvious replication drivers. Why are some humans highly susceptible to such memes? Evolutionary psychology is required to answer this question. Two major evolved psychologi-cal mechanisms emerge from the past to make us susceptible to cults. Capture-bonding exemplified by Patty Hearst and the Stockholm Syndrome is one. Attention-reward is the other. Attention is the way social primates measure status. Attention indicates status and is highly rewarding because it causes the release of brain chemicals such as dopamine and endorphins. Actions lead to Attention that releases Rewarding brain chemicals. Drugs shortcut attention in the Action-Attention-Reward (AAR) brain system and lead to the repeated behaviour we call addiction. Gambling also causes misfiring of the AAR pathway. Memes that manifest as cults hijack this brain reward system by inducing high levels of attention behaviour between cult members. People may become irresponsible on either cults or drugs sometimes resulting in severe damage to reproductive potential
Evolutionary psychology thus answers the question of why humans are susceptible to memes that do them and/or their potential for reproductive success damage. We evolved the psychological traits of capture-bonding and attention-reward that make us vulnerable for other maladaptive functions.
We should be concerned about predator and pathogen memes and the mechanisms that make us vulnerable. The possibility of modeling important social factors contributing to the spread of danger-ous cult memes is discussed. The history of the author’s experiences that led to understanding the con-nection between drugs and cults is related.
Keywords: evolutionary psychology, memetics

76. surelyujest - October 10, 2009

You know you are a sociopath when…

…you not only indulge in socially unacceptable and anti-social behavior, but you believe that the rules just don’t apply to you, that not only are you NOT just another jerk who can’t control himself, but YOUR bad behavior is actually a sign of wisdom, strength, having surpassed the petty suburban masses.

Or that wallowing in your dankest nastiness is really just a phase on your exalted way to a conscious soul. See how well this defense holds up in court — many sociopaths before have tried it before…

Religious fanaticism warps the mind with its lure of “specialness.” Beware anyone who refers to themselves as “wise,” “superior,” or “better off than you.”

Run away!

77. surelyujest - October 10, 2009

Note: my previous post was not directed at anyone specifically on the blog — just Robert Burton and some of his misdirected followers — including some who think they have separated themselves from Burton’s poison, but were infected nonetheless with his fairly common brand of narcissism and justifications for indulging in their worst tendencies, while claiming it is a sign of advancement. They are out there. Beware.

78. another name - October 10, 2009

What a great belly laugh this morning. What a great youtube and Whalerider…you crack me up. Still Laughing.
Great post girls and boys. Bring it on.

What Ton said about being so full of the fof even after you left. This is what memetics do…and even if you think you are not suceptible to these influences..as long as you are around fof you are. Coming down from this influences, takes,
courage
information
support
Willing to confront some dark areas in your self
Giving up denial
Willing to see your own paradoxes
persistence
being aware, increased awareness
healing
time.

Feel free to add some more

79. another name - October 10, 2009

“Cult gatherings or human-potential trainings are an ideal environment to observe first-hand what is technically called the ‘Stock-holm Syndrome… This is a situation in which those who are intimidated, controlled, or made to suffer, begin to love, admire, and even some-times sexually desire their controllers or cap-tors.” –Dick Sutphen

80. X-ray - October 10, 2009

64. I Know – October 10, 2009

‘I do agree that it is almost impossible to objectively evaluate RB
teaching, especially in the last 4-5 years, because it is more
symbolic and in a way more artistic. I have personally seen that such
kind of teaching is valid in very particular context and
circumstances, or a state of consciousness. It is almost out of
context outside the FoF. Even inside the FoF there are many members
who are not connected to it. ‘

Yeap… especially the 6 poops representing the sequence and a female
breast representing the long and the short be’s.. very symbolic and
very artistic…

81. veramente - October 10, 2009

64 I know
I hope you will continue posting and will not be discouraged by the very honest responses your post attracted.
You may not agree on this but your thinking reveals that somehow you are still in need of “brain rinsing”.
It is exactly like the opinions of yours that keep present and former fof members in between two stools.
RB”S sexual misconduct is one of the biggest flags, but there is much more, from the “terrain” so to speak called the teaching of Bobby Burton.
From that very garden of bad seeds funny plants have grown, the magical forest of distortions and hallucinations.
The meetings and the teachings prove that you do not have to be in a “life” asylum to be in a real one.

82. nige - October 10, 2009

NO! BURTON. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU, BUT YOU ARE SOON TO FIND OUT!

Song of the Answerer
by Walt Whitman

1
Now list to my morning’s romanza, I tell the signs of the Answerer,
To the cities and farms I sing as they spread in the sunshine before me.
A young man comes to me bearing a message from his brother,
How shall the young man know the whether and when of his brother?
Tell him to send me the signs. And I stand before the young man
face to face, and take his right hand in my left hand and his
left hand in my right hand,
And I answer for his brother and for men, and I answer for him that
answers for all, and send these signs.

Him all wait for, him all yield up to, his word is decisive and final,
Him they accept, in him lave, in him perceive themselves as amid light,
Him they immerse and he immerses them.

Beautiful women, the haughtiest nations, laws, the landscape,
people, animals,
The profound earth and its attributes and the unquiet ocean, (so
tell I my morning’s romanza,)
All enjoyments and properties and money, and whatever money will buy,
The best farms, others toiling and planting and he unavoidably reaps,
The noblest and costliest cities, others grading and building and he
domiciles there,
Nothing for any one but what is for him, near and far are for him,
the ships in the offing,
The perpetual shows and marches on land are for him if they are for anybody.

He puts things in their attitudes,
He puts to-day out of himself with plasticity and love,
He places his own times, reminiscences, parents, brothers and
sisters, associations, employment, politics, so that the rest
never shame them afterward, nor assume to command them.

He is the Answerer,
What can be answer’d he answers, and what cannot be answer’d he
shows how it cannot be answer’d.

A man is a summons and challenge,
(It is vain to skulk–do you hear that mocking and laughter? do you
hear the ironical echoes?)

Books, friendships, philosophers, priests, action, pleasure, pride,
beat up and down seeking to give satisfaction,
He indicates the satisfaction, and indicates them that beat up and
down also.

Whichever the sex, whatever the season or place, he may go freshly
and gently and safely by day or by night,
He has the pass-key of hearts, to him the response of the prying of
hands on the knobs.

His welcome is universal, the flow of beauty is not more welcome or
universal than he is,
The person he favors by day or sleeps with at night is blessed.

Every existence has its idiom, every thing has an idiom and tongue,
He resolves all tongues into his own and bestows it upon men, and
any man translates, and any man translates himself also,
One part does not counteract another part, he is the joiner, he sees
how they join.

He says indifferently and alike How are you friend? to the President
at his levee,
And he says Good-day my brother, to Cudge that hoes in the sugar-field,
And both understand him and know that his speech is right.

He walks with perfect ease in the capitol,
He walks among the Congress, and one Representative says to another,
Here is our equal appearing and new.

Then the mechanics take him for a mechanic,
And the soldiers suppose him to be a soldier, and the sailors that
he has follow’d the sea,
And the authors take him for an author, and the artists for an artist,
And the laborers perceive he could labor with them and love them,
No matter what the work is, that he is the one to follow it or has
follow’d it,
No matter what the nation, that he might find his brothers and
sisters there.

The English believe he comes of their English stock,
A Jew to the Jew he seems, a Russ to the Russ, usual and near,
removed from none.

Whoever he looks at in the traveler’s coffee-house claims him,
The Italian or Frenchman is sure, the German is sure, the Spaniard
is sure, and the island Cuban is sure,
The engineer, the deck-hand on the great lakes, or on the Mississippi
or St. Lawrence or Sacramento, or Hudson or Paumanok sound, claims him.

The gentleman of perfect blood acknowledges his perfect blood,
The insulter, the prostitute, the angry person, the beggar, see
themselves in the ways of him, he strangely transmutes them,
They are not vile any more, they hardly know themselves they are so grown.

2
The indications and tally of time,
Perfect sanity shows the master among philosophs,
Time, always without break, indicates itself in parts,
What always indicates the poet is the crowd of the pleasant company
of singers, and their words,
The words of the singers are the hours or minutes of the light or dark,
but the words of the maker of poems are the general light and dark,
The maker of poems settles justice, reality, immortality,
His insight and power encircle things and the human race,
He is the glory and extract thus far of things and of the human race.

The singers do not beget, only the Poet begets,
The singers are welcom’d, understood, appear often enough, but rare
has the day been, likewise the spot, of the birth of the maker
of poems, the Answerer,
(Not every century nor every five centuries has contain’d such a
day, for all its names.)

The singers of successive hours of centuries may have ostensible
names, but the name of each of them is one of the singers,
The name of each is, eye-singer, ear-singer, head-singer,
sweet-singer, night-singer, parlor-singer, love-singer,
weird-singer, or something else.

All this time and at all times wait the words of true poems,
The words of true poems do not merely please,
The true poets are not followers of beauty but the august masters of beauty;
The greatness of sons is the exuding of the greatness of mothers
and fathers,
The words of true poems are the tuft and final applause of science.

Divine instinct, breadth of vision, the law of reason, health,
rudeness of body, withdrawnness,
Gayety, sun-tan, air-sweetness, such are some of the words of poems.

The sailor and traveler underlie the maker of poems, the Answerer,
The builder, geometer, chemist, anatomist, phrenologist, artist, all
these underlie the maker of poems, the Answerer.

The words of the true poems give you more than poems,
They give you to form for yourself poems, religions, politics, war,
peace, behavior, histories, essays, daily life, and every thing else,
They balance ranks, colors, races, creeds, and the sexes,
They do not seek beauty, they are sought,
Forever touching them or close upon them follows beauty, longing,
fain, love-sick.

They prepare for death, yet are they not the finish, but rather the outset,
They bring none to his or her terminus or to be content and full,
Whom they take they take into space to behold the birth of stars, to
learn one of the meanings,
To launch off with absolute faith, to sweep through the ceaseless
rings and never be quiet again.”

83. Ames Gilbert - October 10, 2009

Dear I Know and Daily Cardiac,
There are probably as many opinions about what Burton claims to teach and what he actually teaches as there are present and former followers who have been through the Fellowship of Friends.
But, as far as I can see, one of the major differences between you two (and the folks like you) and myself (I won’t presume to speak for others) is that you seem to believe that the being of teachers has no relationship to their teaching, whereas I believe that the being and the teaching are inextricably intertwined. By your lights, “Do as I say and not as I do” is just fine. This so-common attitude inevitably leads to a corrupt teaching, and any student with discrimination can see and feel the profound disconnect.
IMO, anyone setting themselves up as a spiritual teacher is entering very dangerous territory, because those who are corruptible are always corrupted. And anyone who has not faced their ‘dark side’ head-on’ and explored and accepted and come to terms with it is corruptible. The few effective teachers teach by example, the example of their being. They may explain principles for the intellectual intelligence with words, but it is the wordless that is by far the most important teaching.

So, this is where I perceive you make a major mistake about people like Burton. You lack the discrimination to tell the difference between someone who is ‘teaching’ from theory (however strongly he believes in his theories) from someone who is teaching by example, from being, from attainment. And my observations about Burton’s limitations in this regards are proven true. How? Because after forty years, the being of the likes of Girard and Asaf and Linda, the poverty of the ‘Sequence’, the collections of palm trees, gold buddhas and the like, the spiritual materialism––these are the actual fruits of his ‘teaching’. Not the prizes to be awarded in some future lifetime, or the promises of “jam tomorrow” (but never today). The constant lust for never-ending sex, the quest for total dominance and control, the insatiable appetites that control him, that is his being, his actual here-and-now being, and that is all he can truly teach from. The question is, why have you settled for this bogus fifth-rate simulacrum of ‘teaching’?

The bullshit about women being ‘lower cosmoses’ and ‘nine lifetimes’ and the predictions, the ‘goddess trapped in a man’s body’ and the rest is just that, total bullshit, and should be regarded by anyone with a modicum of sense as strong warning that something is deeply askew.

Occam’s Razor, and all that…

84. nige - October 10, 2009

83 Ames Gilbert

You forgot one thing, despite your post having been the most powerful today, I think…..

MEMBERS IN THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS ARE MOST LIKELY TO HAVE THAT FEELING OF ‘SPECIALNESS’ BECAUSE OF THE OUTER SHOW AND BURTON PROMOTES THIS IN THEM AD NAUSEUM. NOT JUST BURTON, BUT THE WHOLE PARADE OF THE FOF, IS THE NAKED EMPEROR…..

85. nige - October 10, 2009

For the ‘bloggely lazy’…..

Occam’s Razor

“One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.”

86. nige - October 10, 2009

Just one last blast (from Elena’s newer site) at 00.25 GMT…..

Elena: “Schizophrenia is very different to Consciousness. The schizophrenic enters the same realms a Conscious being enters but does so without a mature enough I or keel to move him or her across the experience. An enlightened being might become as “separated” from the physical world as a schizophrenic for a period of time but that doesn’t mean that he has lost the keel while he is “tripping” in those realms. In drugs, people experience aspects of those realms at the cost of their own keel or I, hence the subsequent depression and loss of connectedness with the physical realm. A lot of physical work would help these people reconnect to their lost keel or sense of I.

People think high states are difficult to experience but they are quite normal. Normal, healthy people live in a high state that is normal to them even if they are not tripping in and out of high and low states or bragging about it. In as much as high states reveal our connectedness with both our inner and external world most people in essence, that is, those who have not lost a practical connection with nature and its rhythm within as much as outside of themselves, do not experience the inner and outer world with the schizophrenic separations people in cities experience them. What is common in our times is normally abnormal people following Arthur’s expression! WE are those abnormally normal people and the sooner we grasp that reality and stop talking about what is happening to others the sooner we’ll be able to get a grip on it.

Most of the people of our generation who have had experiences with drugs have tasted other realms of existence. Recognizing the objective reality of those realms should not pose a problem to us today. It’s how we incorporate them in our lives what matters and here is where Cults come in. What they are promising people is individual experiences of higher states without connectedness to society. What they are achieving is disconnectedness from reality or schizophrenic experiences of complete disassociation with their own I by willingly submitting to the gurus will. The problem is not whether members experience high states or not, they do experience supra-normal states, the problem is that like in drugs, they have become addicted to the guru and lose their own self or keel in the experience which is what leads to suicide in the long run.”

87. Yesri Baba - October 11, 2009

“A day will come when you laugh at how you so easily overlooked something so obvious.”
Ramana Maharshi

88. ton - October 11, 2009

89. WhaleRider - October 11, 2009

Great vid, ton. I bet that guy’s laughing all the way to the bank.

90. Daily Cardiac - October 11, 2009

I know:

Regarding your response to my comment at #23:

DC – “But in a larger context I wonder how Wittgenstein’s maxim applies to the 83 plus pages of comments by ex members who, in no uncertain terms, claim to know everything there is to know about the FoF/RB.”

#64. I Know:

“It doesn’t apply, yet does it matter? “Knowing everything there is to know about the FoF/RB’ is imaginary. What does it mean “Everything there is to know”?”

I agree that “knowing all there is to know” is imaginary. But it applies in the context of the maxim Walter Tanner submitted.

If someone with a reasoning mind were to take the comments of ex members at face value they would conclude that the individuals knew “all there is to know” about RB/FoF because there appears to be no bounds or limits to what they can know, at least not from their comments. For the most part they are not qualifying their comments as opinions or beliefs, but offering them with an unerring surety.

I know – “Behind the smoke there is fire… If one relates to RB’s sexual conduct, be it highly graphic or not, there is fire behind the smoke and no matter how much you disregard it, it is there.”

Is there really fire? If someone screams fire in a crowded auditorium it’s wise to assume there is fire until you are out in the open where you can learn the facts at your leisure. Maybe there was a fire, maybe it was all a hoax, including some smoke.

In our case we don’t yet know the whole truth behind Robert’s lifestyle or actions. Each of us can know that his actions either offend our sensibilities / beliefs or do not offend them. That is all. We are not out of the auditorium yet, but one day all of us will be in the position to “know all there is to know” about it.

My own personal belief / opinion / understanding, call it what you will, is that a teacher having consensual sex with a disciple is not grounds for concern and is certainly not grounds for leaving a school that is otherwise delivering on what it promised, which is relevant in my case and in the cases of many other current students. On the other hand, if the school is not delivering on what it promised to someone, whether real or perceived, no amount of “above board” action by the teacher will suffice.

I also understand that some others on this blog do not consider Robert’s actions in relation to sex with members as being consensual, but that’s another, entirely independent, issue.

By the way, I know; I don’t take offense with your moniker as ton does. I see it as a term of agreement, such as – if someone tells me “life is difficult” I might answer “I know.”

ton – 73:

“personally i like being ’subjective’ and my sense of self does not depend on this idiotic notion that the ‘objective’ is ’superior’ or preferable to the ’subjective.”

If that’s true then it follows that there is no such quality as superior or inferior, no right or wrong; only what someone personally sees as right or superior. Ask anyone what’s right or wrong and they will offer a belief, and those beliefs will vary and contradict and cancel out the beliefs of others.

What are we left with? Right or wrong still exist, independent from our notions. They exist objectively.

ton – “consider that anything that you might deem ‘objective’ is being filtered through your ’subjectivity’ anyway.”

That is only partly true as I see it.

If an individual has gained access to an objective or, more objective, understanding through his or her own efforts to do so it means they have by passed, overcome their subjectivity to some degree. It also means (where I agree with you) the objectivity is filtered through the individual’s self, which still retains the characteristics of a particular essence. A person can arrive at an objective understanding and still be attracted to some things more than to other things.

Ames Gilbert – # 83:

“IMO, anyone setting themselves up as a spiritual teacher is entering very dangerous territory, because those who are corruptible are always corrupted. And anyone who has not faced their ‘dark side’ head-on’ and explored and accepted and come to terms with it is corruptible. The few effective teachers teach by example, the example of their being. They may explain principles for the intellectual intelligence with words, but it is the wordless that is by far the most important teaching.”

I do think with this comment you have gotten as close to the central issue as anyone has. I also agree in principle with all of what you say in this comment.

Where we disagree is in the evaluation of the facts, evidence, circumstances.

The circumstances being that there are different levels of consciousness, different states, available to man and men who occupy those upper levels of conscious states are invariably misunderstood by those who do not. How could it be otherwise? If it were otherwise we would be the one sought and not the seeker.

I don’t know for sure if you agree with those few thoughts but if you don’t there is no basis for you relating to my belief system.

Main stream psychology, the one we inherit and imitate from our parents, peers and instructors is perfectly suited to expose charlatans who claim to operate in the spiritual realm, but it is not equipped to expose or evaluate enlightened men because enlightened action is, for the most part, beyond those who would be doing the evaluating.

As soon as an action diverged from ordinary reasoning it would be lost to the evaluator, who would be forced to use his/her normal powers of reasoning to determine super normal actions.

Our normal psychology reasons like this:
1) All charlatans misuse the trust placed in them by followers in order to arrive at their own selfish and harmful aims ( true.)
2) Teacher X is exhibiting behavior consistent with those known to be charlatans ( true.)
3) Therefore Teacher X is a charlatan (not necessarily true.)
Correction – Teacher X “appears” to be a charlatan and could be one or could not be one. (true)

Consciousness implies a choice, it implies freedom. A charlatan is not free and has no choice. He has to exhibit behavior consistent with who he is. But an enlightened man or woman is not bound by this restriction. They can display any form of behavior they deem necessary to fulfill their higher duty. This might consist of acting like a saint in one instance and a scoundrel the next or a fool one moment and a wise man the next.

It’s obvious that several ex members on this blog have made a big issue of Robert’s having sex with members. Is this reality part of something bigger than themselves, a device that facilitates for some their departure from the FoF?

A device that a teacher understands is part of a much bigger fabric which he allows to play out? After all, Robert does not find out someone objects to his lifestyle and then sends them away. They leave of their own accord; which may indicate wrong priorities or valuation.

One can only speculate, not having access to Robert’s inner motivations, but of course this scenario is within the realm of possibility and the grasp of reasoning.

The fact that he might enjoy the encounters, enjoy that part of his role as much as the charlatan would is not relevant to anything. How would this scenario distinguish the real teacher from the charlatan?

The charlatan can only deceive and pretend to teach because he or she does not have the being to actually teach, although they could repeat words attributed to other teachers.

Whereas a real teacher, aside from any “questionable” circumstances connected to his or her external role could teach, in a vital and appropriate manner; appropriate in an objective sense, not in a sense that everyone would approve or accept. A real teacher could impart consciousness to anyone ready to receive it where a charlatan could not, and that’s a big difference.

91. nige - October 11, 2009

I have been having dreams that have questioned my life and what I am doing. I have also, as you may realise from a post above, been reading in on Elena’s ‘Battlesword’ site and posting there. I thought it might be worthwhile pasting from the original ‘Animam Recro’ to perhaps make us reflect on why we actually visit here and why we post…..

“For those of you who got here through coincidence or pure chance, this discussion is about a group called the Fellowship of Friends. I would recommend starting reading from page 1, as what is being said now is quite far removed from what the discussion was about at the beginning. Find out for yourself whether the Fellowship of Friends is a genuine spiritual school, or a dangerous cult, as believed by many who have left. Or simply enjoy interacting with so many interesting and exciting people.”

Can we be both ‘interesting and exciting people’ and also be those who have an interest in the welfare of those who are still trapped in the FOF and who are questioning their being there. I believe it is selfish to just be the former…..Nigel.

92. nige - October 11, 2009

90 Daily Cardiac

You are disapperaing up your own rectal orifice with this one…..

“Consciousness implies a choice, it implies freedom. A charlatan is not free and has no choice. He has to exhibit behavior consistent with who he is. But an enlightened man or woman is not bound by this restriction. They can display any form of behavior they deem necessary to fulfill their higher duty. This might consist of acting like a saint in one instance and a scoundrel the next or a fool one moment and a wise man the next.

It’s obvious that several ex members on this blog have made a big issue of Robert’s having sex with members. Is this reality part of something bigger than themselves, a device that facilitates for some their departure from the FoF? ”

Enlightenment means, for most, more rules put on their behaviour, because of the existence of conscience…..Nigel.

93. nige - October 11, 2009

90 Daily Cardiac

“The charlatan can only deceive and pretend to teach because he or she does not have the being to actually teach, although they could repeat words attributed to other teachers.

Whereas a real teacher, aside from any “questionable” circumstances connected to his or her external role could teach, in a vital and appropriate manner; appropriate in an objective sense, not in a sense that everyone would approve or accept. A real teacher could impart consciousness to anyone ready to receive it where a charlatan could not, and that’s a big difference.”

O.K. Big question! What and how does REB teach? Does he have a ‘speciality’, as Gurdjieff stated? And that whole thing about imparting consciousness, if he so wishes, is pure drivel. For instance, has he actually imparted consciousness to (man #5?) G—-d H—n, or is he just handing out roles as ‘prestige sandwiches’ to enablers, as many believe?…..Nigel.

94. Yesri Baba - October 11, 2009

95. another name - October 11, 2009

Please dear daily cardiac (TF)

Am I correct that you are not responding to my blog entrees?
Please, please, please, read….

Many of your answers will be put into a different perspective.

96. Yesri Baba - October 11, 2009
97. Yesri Baba - October 11, 2009

“…if someone tells me “life is difficult” I might answer “I know.”

I bet, that’s because you are a monumentally stupid fucking retard.

98. ton - October 11, 2009

yesri, thanks for being so concise….

the ‘pretzel-logic’ arguments of ‘DC’ continue ad nauseum–

“The charlatan can only deceive and pretend to teach because he or she does not have the being to actually teach….”
etc etc etc…

i will give you credit, you hit the nail on the head… but let’s be specific to the situation… i for one do question the ‘being’ of your ‘teacher’ and what it is he actually does ‘teach.’ i can say thanks to the clarity that time and distance can bestow, i have a very different understanding of the ‘being’ of your ‘teacher.’ i see a charlatan and a fraud where you see a ‘teacher’ and due to my own hard-won understanding along with the grace of what is good in this world, i can fortunately say that he’s your ‘teacher’ and not mine. but to each their own and good luck with your ‘choice’ in this case.

at times DC, you seem to know what the truth is, you just need to take responsibility for what you know and look at your so-called ‘teacher’ a little more ‘objectively.’ the problem for you is that impartial ‘objectivity’ is impossible because you are so emotionally invested in your ‘beloved’ that you cannot see clearly… or you do see ‘clearly’ but not ‘objectively.’ that is, you see only what you want to see and what you want to imagine the situation to be… this is your conditioned ‘sleep’ (look at the fable of the emperor’s clothes). at times you exhibit insights of truth, but with you the problem is that you don’t know how to apply these insights to the situation at hand.

apparently you’ve given up on a life lived in actuality and instead you live in a world of abstractions and self-deception. you use so many fine words and arguments to rationalize and justify your position but that doesn’t have much to do with the reality of things or it has to do only with your own little reality…. you can convince yourself of many things but it’s just your imagination spinning a comfortable web for you to sleep in. your measly little world is created by your own self-induced self-deception which is rooted in burton’s so-called ‘teachings.’ in actuality these so-called ‘teachings’ are utter nonsense, but you believe in the bullshit he spins, you’ve swallowed hook, line and stinker.

this is your pitiful condition of which you are blissfully unaware; your very narrow view of ‘truth’ is, unfortunately for you, restricted by your dogmatic devotion to a father figure, your ‘teacher,’ who gladly accepts your payments (the fleecing of the flock), and in exchange you can remain an emotionally infantile dependent who abdicates the potential that can be actualized and created only through entering into full personal responsibility for your existence. you give up responsibility for developing your own individuality and you are compromised by being a life-long and dogmatic follower… you don’t seem to know what learning is all about…. do you live to eat or eat to live?

you ‘choose’ through your own self-deceptions, to give up a measure of personal freedom, apparently there is some comfort for you to remain in a state of relative un-freedom, you live your life as a sheep, a puppet and a tool for your ‘teacher.’ your self-deception is part and parcel of the delusion created by the mind-virus that infects you. you assume, you imagine that affiliation with your so-called ‘teacher’ means access to a version of ‘truth’ that has something to do with your imaginary notions of what constitutes ‘objective reality’ — and yet the further you walk down this imaginary path, the further away you get from actuality. it’s a delusion you’re in which clouds the possibility for a clearer vision, and the problem with escaping the situation is that there’s a ‘catch 22’ — you can’t recognize the delusion, you can’t see your way clear of the situation because you co-create and live the delusion.

it doesn’t matter how many words you apply to the situation, as a ‘rational’ animal you can rationalize anything, that’s what we humans do, we rationalize. but all of the nonsense and idiocy of the human race, the inhumane atrocities that have occurred in history and are occurring right now in the present, all seemingly ‘justifiable’ acts perpetrated by seemingly ‘sane’ and rational people… all of this has been and is rationalized… it’s what people do in order to live with their actions and situations. you might like to think that from your imagined lofty position, that you are above the human condition, but in actuality you are not. there’s a saying in my country: ‘you make the bed you lie in’ — and so i wish you sweet dreams.

99. James Mclemore - October 11, 2009

Well written ton, your general theme of delusion and nonsense and the difficulty in escaping it was very much along the same vein as I was experiencing……….

DC wrote –
“A real teacher could impart consciousness to anyone ready to receive it”

DC – I have a feeling that the only ideas that will probably be available to you after you read my post are going to be the ones that indicate my supposed evolution has somehow short-circuited, my ‘lower self’ has eaten me for lunch, and I just do not have the esoteric ‘ears to hear’. Oh well……………

Now I realize that this statement above about ‘imparting consciousness’ may be a mainstay of the premise upon which your whole castle is built, but it is just simply nonsense. I have no idea what you mean when you use the word ‘consciousness’ and I am pretty sure that you do not either. I can say this because you speak about it as if it were a ‘thing’ that some ‘person’ could have and others be “ready to receive”. This may sound preposterous to you, but ‘consciousness’, no matter how you try to define it, is not a ‘thing’ that a ‘you’ can have or not have. That idea is just part of a story that ‘you’ believe in, and that once inside of, you will think ‘you’ have verified the truth of. But all of it is happening within a faith-based belief system and story that you have unknowingly become immersed in, and that the entirety of your long post above, as ton already pointed out, is simply just a reflection of.

However, I am really curious as to the experiences you are evidently having when you imagine this mysterious ‘imparting’ business going on. If you could tell us a bit about that, I think it might help explain a few things.

100. James Mclemore - October 11, 2009

From “The Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe”, by Jane Wagner, and performed on Broadway by Lily Tomlin in a one-woman show.

(from her post-it notes on her communications with aliens)

“Did you know, in the entire universe, we are the only intelligent life forms thought to have a Miss Universe contest?”

***********

“Oh, they’re pretty critical of us, but they said they had to admit, we’re way out in front when it comes to stuff you can make in a blender.”

101. Voloneska - October 12, 2009

‘Being’ – still talk about being like it is something real? Why?
Idea of being also control technik for FOF. What this means is person has mystery power, like in Japanese cartoon. This technik only can work for control when people agree that person has this power. You can have fear of me, respect of me, hate, jelousy or like and admiration – but to say I have or do not have being ? It is bullshit.
Burton uses this word about people. He/she has being to work with play, or does not have being to work with influence C shock. Then other people use word by immitation. It is pseudo mystical way for to acknowledge, give positive reinforcement and credit to behaviour. On other hand, is way to condem and justify unwanted behaviour by lack of mystical quality; and so can explain away reason person not like ‘good student’ because of defficiency. It is that person is defficient in this qualtiy, similar to ‘valuation’; person falls away from standard required to be acknowledged in positive way. To show person has being they must conform. (Please note that to be good performer in organised crime gang must have being and valuation also). Even if more new word, It is not new control tool. Control tool as old as politic and religeon or people living in community. Contradiction to spirit of word is that to have being must show to have being, but at same time being must be very private qualtiy. Also word being must suggest attribute of ego, in final analysis; this is like giving super powers to what normaly people in spiritual tradition try to reduce power of. This word has no clear definition even in FOF. Original idea is about Knowledge and Understanding to have balance. Ouspensky has to get behind more abstract knowlegde of circle of academic persons. See term in context of situation and breaking down barrier.
For me there is rule of thum for spiritual teacher. If they give tool to destroy lie, they help people who have desire to see more clear. If they give tool for build up, they are not spiritual teacher but another greedy person looking how to build little fiefdom. Burton tools about to build something important. Build civilisation, system if knowledge, new religion etc. Idea of being is way for Burton to package and sell vanity credit in his fiefdom.
Many (maybe most) people who join FOF romantics and idea of being attractive because invisible and noble quality. Maybe idea still can be expression of spiritual vanity and desire to still be special and different.

102. X-ray - October 12, 2009

90. Daily Cardiac – October 11, 2009

‘Is there really fire? If someone screams fire in a crowded auditorium it’s wise to assume there is fire until you are out in the open where you can learn the facts at your leisure. Maybe there was a fire, maybe it was all a hoax, including some smoke.

In our case we don’t yet know the whole truth behind Robert’s lifestyle or actions. ‘

Really?
And how about those people who’ve seen Burton’s shit on their dicks and their cum in his mouth? Do you think they know the whole truth about his lifestyle?

You are where you have to be, Fellowshit of Friends truly is your place.

103. Voloneska - October 12, 2009

Question for Daily Cardiac.
If Burton part of higher circle of humanity, why Burton all alone with only dead higher beings on similar level to know? Burton has no meaningful contact with any persons excpting his followers, ballet dancer and expensive store or keeper or art shop.
Why if Burton so developed he does not play part in world? Why only build private legacy? Can you explain please.

104. Crouching Tiger - October 12, 2009

‘Because I believe Robert Burton is able to induce ‘higher states’ in me, I am prepared to also believe that all his behaviour is excusable as the behaviour of a higher being, whom I cannot understand from my own level’.

This what your position boils down to, DC.

Probably, if you were able to subtract yourself from this identification with the notion that these ‘higher states’ – repeated often enough – will one day lead you into the paradise of ‘real I’, you might be able to see the straightforward connection between state and behaviour that actually exists. Things are very simple – there is no “Ahhhh, but…”

But you do believe that it will bring you to what you want, and it’s the very thing that stands in your way. I hope you eventually find your way out of the nursery, into a world where state and action are agreeable rather than contradictory. It is the most basic meaning of Not Lying.

105. Mikey - October 12, 2009

Qualitative Opposites.
Peter denied Jesus by saying: ‘I know not the man’.
A number of people support Robert Burton by saying:
‘I know not the man’.
There are quite a few who honestly deny Robert Burton based on their experience, and not a one who will honestly support him.
‘Tis true ’tis a pity; ’tis a pity ’tis true.

106. another name - October 12, 2009

For Daily card and of course others,

More about getting hooked on and the circuits in the brain. Increase your daily brocolli, nuts, thyrosine and turkey and see what you think/ feel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/19/health/19REWA.html

107. WhaleRider - October 12, 2009

daily cardiac:
Thank you ever so much for posting.

You said,“A real teacher could impart consciousness to anyone ready to receive it where a charlatan could not, and that’s a big difference.”

Any famous (or infamous) person with personal charisma can impart a memorable, altered, and heightened state of awareness to any willing admirer or follower they come in contact with.

The charlatan, by definition, is the man who attempts to take credit for the altered state the follower produces in themselves.

Such was the case with Anton Mesmer, who claimed to possess something he called, “Animal Magnetism”. We have Ben Franklin to thank, a man of deep understanding and keen reasoning, for exposing Mesmer’s ruse. Franklin concluded that any heightened or altered state produced in the recipient was due to the recipient’s own imagination and expectancy and does not originate in the promoter.

At one time people would pay great sums of money to be in proximity of Mesmer and exposed to his “power”, claiming to have received benefit from his presence.

Such is the case with charismatic cult leaders like Burton who claim to be enlightened and produce consciousness in others through proximity. This is evidence of Burton’s delusion.

A real teacher, by definition, has a duty to bring his students to his own level of understanding and to eventually accept them as independent, equal peers.

A person assuming the role of a self-proclaimed teacher, spiritual or otherwise, and also suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder would not be free nor have the choice to view his students as equal peers. He would be unconsciously driven to remain “superior” at any cost.

If one adheres to the ideology of oneness, then there is no hierarchy in paradise anyway.

“This might consist of acting like a saint in one instance and a scoundrel the next or a fool one moment and a wise man the next.”

Most people exhibit this type of behavior. Anyone with a modicum of self-awareness observes themselves dutifully wearing different hats for different occasions depending upon what is required from them in any given circumstance or moment. These are not super human efforts.

“As soon as an action diverged from ordinary reasoning it would be lost to the evaluator, who would be forced to use his/her normal powers of reasoning to determine super normal actions.

A person suffering from delusions of grandeur would use this same reasoning; so would a psychopathic personality who lacks a conscience. They would claim to be above common law and abide by a “higher” standard, immune from scrutiny, and absolving themselves of any feelings of guilt for their behavior. This is the symptom of their sickness.

This style of reasoning could be employed to justify many destructive and harmful behaviors which is why such people need to be contained and often isolated from society.

People suffering from the above disorders will take advantage of any person naive or inexperienced enough to give them the benefit of the doubt as in :

Burton “appears” to be a charlatan and could be one or could not be one.”

or

“We can only speculate, not having access to Robert’s inner motivations, but of course this scenario is within the realm of possibility and the grasp of reasoning.”

There are still ardent followers of Charles Manson who give him the benefit of the doubt, too. All of Jim Jones ardent followers made the ultimate sacrifice for their “valuation”.

Despite claims of “not knowing the truth until the end”, the endgame result in the ardent follower is always wasted possibilities of personal growth.

Actions speak louder than words. Burton’s motives are not a mystery.

In that respect, Burton’s actions or motives are no different or special from the range of behaviors or motives that humans exhibit, despite the credit his followers give him.

108. JustDiscussing - October 12, 2009

Daily Cardiac, I would advise you to simply look at the longterm effect of Robert’s sexual demands on his partners, whether they are still in the Fellowship or not. Contact the men who have publicly or semi-publicly made accusations against Robert. Talk to local ex-members who have had sex with Robert. Scratch the surface with the current members.

109. Jomo Piñata - October 12, 2009

James McLemore/100

“Did you know, in the entire universe, we are the only intelligent life forms thought to have a Miss Universe contest?”

I wondered why we humans always win it! Now I know!

110. WhaleRider - October 12, 2009

daily cardiac:

The internal motivations for Burton’s actions are clear:

self-aggrandizement.

How could it be otherwise?

He is suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, for goodness sake!

Enough about him.

Let’s talk about you and your need to defend him at your own expense.

How’s your day job going?

Got health insurance? 401K?

111. Jomo Piñata - October 12, 2009

Hey, Lacuna Piñata:

All this cave-painting, rhino-poop-counting, lopping-off-fingers-with- photoshop, going-behind-a-rock-and-giving-birth-to-the-sequence stuff: is it exegesis or eisegesis?

112. dragon - October 12, 2009

DC,
Extraordinary….

113. Ames Gilbert - October 12, 2009

Hello Daily Cardiac,
If I understand you correctly, we both agree that Burton is behaving exactly like a charlatan (#84-90). Our disagreement seems to come down to this: Ames believes he has found evidence that Burton is just another fraud, whereas you believe you personally can somehow discern that he is a ‘conscious being’ acting as a charlatan. I’ve pointed you to the tool that anyone can use to tell if he is a fraud––judge him by forty years of his fruits, the effects of his passing. This bypasses your claims that ordinary people like you or I cannot judge such a high person, or discern his motives.

So let’s zero in on your assertions that you can tell that Burton is putting on a beyond-Oscar-worthy acting performance. First you tell us you are willing to accept that the matter is beyond your present understanding (Burton’s consciousness is in some way ‘too high’ for you to meaningfully relate to). So his ‘consciousness’ is a theory, and you are willing to wait for evidence of it to present itself in some future when you have ‘evolved’ enough or have otherwise achieved worthiness. You also have a theory that Burton can impart consciousness to you whenever he and you are ready (I assume that that has not yet occurred, or you would tell us?) So basically, wouldn’t it be fair to say, your life is a giant gamble. You are betting your life, past, present and some or all of the future, that Burton will eventually uphold his part of the deal. You are betting that his actions, though indistinguishable from those of a fraud or charlatan, are those of a ‘conscious being’ (you freely admit that you cannot tell at your present level).

Why don’t we go back to basics? What evidence whatsoever do you have that Burton has your (Daily Cardiac’s) best interests at heart at all?

And, as a great favor, please use higher standards of verification than “I have felt sincerely and deeply for a long time it must be true” or “Robert/Girard/an older student/someone I admire told me so” or “I have no evidence that it is otherwise”.

114. nige - October 12, 2009

posted to elena’s site…..

45. nige – October 12, 2009
From the musical ‘Chess’ by Rice/Andersson/Ulvaeus…..

“………………………………………
Holding some childhood grudge?
How could I be, I’m in the spotlight,
Half of the world my judge:
All I demand is those I work for,
All I give my time, all my skills, my pain;
Those that I entertain:
Give me the same. compassion in return.
But the fools never learn…..”

115. nige - October 12, 2009

first two lines should read…..

“I’m not the one to be vindictive,
Holding some childish grudge:”

116. nige - October 12, 2009

107/110 WhaleRider

Your attribute of someone with psychosis and delusions of grandeur are entirely correct (‘level of being’ acknowledges ‘level of being’ through understanding – i.e. ‘a working knowledge of…..’)…..Nigel.

P.S. Bet the hell Daily Crap-a-lot cannot make head or tail of this post….n.

117. Voloneska - October 13, 2009

Thank you Dragon. Very nice music video. Another from Fiona Apple, quiet in middle of mess.

118. WhaleRider - October 13, 2009

Waiting for Godot:

I don’t expect it would be easy for you to speak about the fear that binds you into defending Burton, remaining in his cult, and acting against your self-interest.

Ultimately, it’s the fear of death.

you said: “It’s obvious that several ex members on this blog have made a big issue of Robert’s having sex with members. Is this reality part of something bigger than themselves, a device that facilitates for some their departure from the FoF? A device that a teacher understands is part of a much bigger fabric which he allows to play out?”

It dawned on me early this morning that you may be unclear as to what “device” Burton is “employing” on his followers by having sex with them.

Yes, I agree that the “device” is “part of something bigger than themselves”, in that the unconscious mind is a vast ocean and the conscious mind is but a small island. There is much that we cannot and do not want to know of ourselves and that others can.

IMHO, Burton is unconsciously inflicting the narcissistic wound upon his followers that more than likely his father unconsciously inflicted upon him, and for which he never forgave his mother for protecting him against.

I Know this from my own personal experience of having been wounded by his actions.

You call this conscious? I call it predictable unconscious human behavior. Sure, Burton is cleansing his flock alright. At the end of the day, “valuation” is simply boiled down to the followers left with the highest degree of co-dependence.

You said, “After all, Robert does not find out someone objects to his lifestyle and then sends them away. They leave of their own accord; which may indicate wrong priorities or valuation.”

This is more evidence of your own flawed thinking.

Why would Burton be motivated to kick them out of his cult? It would not be in his financial or personal best interest to do so. It is clear what his priorities are. He values the money his followers “donate” to his cause of exploiting and manipulating them into colluding with his mental illness. His followers and delusional system are insulation against his guilt

Now, in the same vein that you do not believe I can understand you, I don’t expect you to understand me.

Let’s allow the truth to speak for itself.

You know, I remember quite vividly the experience I had seeing the mummified corpse of King Tut in his original tomb in Luxor. For me it was a higher state. I had heard about King Tut for most of my life. He is probably one of the most famous kings of all time. The collection of his jewelry I viewed in the Cairo Museum prior to seeing him was awesome.

And then, there he was, this tiny little man in a glass box with a sheet over his middle and his head and bony feet sticking out. Of course we know he died young, and to me he looked about as big as a pygmy. It was a stark contrast to all the grandeur and pomp surrounding him. He seemed so frail and human in the end. Fortunately for me, I understood that the state the experience created had more to do with me than him. He was just a unlucky corpse on display for people to gawk at.

I bet that if the Pharaohs could see what they look like in the “afterlife” they lead in the museums, withered and stripped of all their wealth, material objects, slaves, and left with only their “title” on a placard, they’d be sorely disappointed.

119. Yesri Baba - October 13, 2009

118 Whalerider

“Waiting for Godot”

LOL. Nailed it!

and…

“After all, Robert does not find out someone objects to his lifestyle and then sends them away. They leave of their own accord; which may indicate wrong priorities or valuation.”

someone correct me if I am mistaken but haven’t I read numerous anecdotes on the blog where someone has confronted the Scumbag with his ‘lifestyle’ and subsequently been thrown out with less a fond farewell?

120. Mikey - October 13, 2009

I’m shocked Captain Bobby, still no one comes to you defense or offers any praise or gratitude for your efforts and sacrifice. (I know, what do you care as long as the money keeps rolling in, they can think what they want. After all, who is fooling whom?). Not to worry, I’m sure they’ll speak well of you soon enough after your death. (Just imagine the power struggle when that vacuum leaves the room).
You didn’t think this was your last human incarnation did you?
Oh no! You’ve been such a good pretentious little cocksucker that you’ve earned a many-many-more-lifetimes achievement award. Or, if you’re lucky, you’ll get to experience the opposite.

121. Ellen - October 13, 2009

#56, JP

I had a writing professor who liked to say, “you can’t run and shoot yourself in the foot at the same time.”

Of course, only a confused sense of self would 1) bring intentional harm to oneself (or another), and 2) attempt two contradictory actions simultaneously. So if by your comment you meant to imply that the groundless sense of self to which I was referring, was not really trustworthy if it wasn’t thoroughly integrated with physical existence, then I would agree. However, I don’t consider “sense of self” to be limited by the body/mind either.

122. Jomo Piñata - October 13, 2009

121/Ellen

In the end, self trust may be the only ground we can stand on.

Trusting oneself is “running.”

(The only problem is that it may be infinitely groundless.)

Finding reasons to support the proposition that we cannot even trust ourselves is “shooting oneself in the foot.”

123. James Mclemore - October 14, 2009

Jomo and ellen –

Re : ‘groundlessness’

As one who has ‘shot himself in the foot’ countless times in his life, while standing completely still, and moreover, not even realizing until afterward that he was even armed; I think the idea that we may not have the firm ground we imagined we were standing on is not something that should worry us or will necessarily put our ‘trust in ourselves’ at risk. With the exception of possibly some sort of basic chord progression, the piece seems to be of a pretty much improvised nature anyway.

124. surelyujest - October 14, 2009

99 James Mclemore

“This may sound preposterous to you, but ‘consciousness’, no matter how you try to define it, is not a ‘thing’ that a ‘you’ can have or not have. That idea is just part of a story that ‘you’ believe in, and that once inside of, you will think ‘you’ have verified the truth of. But all of it is happening within a faith-based belief system and story that you have unknowingly become immersed in…”

Nice summation of the Myth of the 4th Way, IMO. How’s this for cognitive dissonance: “being present” while a large portion of your awareness is fixated on an imagined future where you are more awake, more in control, more important, revered, admired and sought after. Maybe your awareness is even in another lifetime where you are King of Conscious Beings!

125. surelyujest - October 14, 2009

And the moral of the story is, “vanity, vanity, all is vanity.” The quest to make ego permanent is the ultimate in vanity, and “nature red in tooth and claw” self-preservation.

126. JustDiscussing - October 14, 2009

DC “After all, Robert does not find out someone objects to his lifestyle and then sends them away. They leave of their own accord; which may indicate wrong priorities or valuation.”

Anyone who publicly questions Robert’s lifestyle, for instance at a FOF event, will be booted out of the Fellowship.

127. surelyujest - October 14, 2009

Anyone not under Burton’s sway and the effect of the mentioned Stockholm Syndrome could see that he is a prisoner of his earthly desires. Long-winded justifications of his criminal behavior as somehow being beyond the understanding of mere mortals is ridiculous, and laughable (and sad) for anyone who has broken the spell of enchantment.

It takes courage to admit you’ve been duped. Easier to double-down, “bet your bus ticket home,” and pray for the best, vaguely imagining that it will all make sense when viewed from the equally imaginary afterlife.

128. surelyujest - October 14, 2009

How do you know you are trapped in a cult ideology? If you defend cult ideas using still other cult ideas and cult language, then you are stuck in a self-sealing doctrine. Nobody has all the answers to life. Labeling every phenomenon in a desperate attempt to fend off the fear of the unknown, substituting the easy comfort of certainty over simple awe at the mystery of life may feel good but is ultimately self deceiving.

Gurdjieff did have a few nuggets of wisdom to offer. One is, never try to try to take away a person’s religion. I suppose I should take that advice, but I just can’t seem to stand the sight of otherwise intelligent people babbling nonsense and thinking they are somehow above all the other idiots. Sue me.

129. Dennis Larson - October 15, 2009

DC

Nothing like a student who is still in the school to bring out all the big guns and those of us who would like to help. All I can say is that I believed everything you do, and probably more, for twelve years back in the seventies and eighties. I no longer believe it and I am a happier man.

130. veramente - October 15, 2009

Not only I believed, I was happy, willing and ready to suffer in the name of the system, Robert Burton and the idea of sacrifice to get the ultimate reward: to become my own master.
I and maybe most of us have entertained the idea of heroism concerning awakening. This energy made me/us undertake lunatic efforts.
The resoluteness, the self denial, the keep going attitude proved in the end to be anything but what the fourth way was claiming to be about.
The way of the sly wo_man? give me a break…

131. nige - October 15, 2009

129 Dennis Larson/130 veramente

I believed that losing the school meant losing one’s possibilities, that I was willing to kill myself rather than being out of the influence of it. I have now found my place in the world and, like Dennis, am a happier and (like veramente) more relaxed person…..Nigel.

132. dragon - October 15, 2009

130. veramente

Where Believing Is Just the Beginning:

“You see, when a baby laughs for the first time, the laugh turns into a fairy.”

As an “Alien” (i/I was never in the FOF) it may be an explanation why many FOF-people(Ex or In) need:

1. So much time to realize the “trap” behind the FOF-Game.
2. Defend their point of view being still in the FOF.
3. Try to esteem it an honour to have done a “good” job in the FOF (learning, reading, mastering the own “inner self”…)

Coming back to the first laugh of a baby. Robert Burton’s natural gift of “imitating this first laugh” may turning into the special and individual fairy of every single person, who was in contact with him or the FOF.

He makes people believe, it is their individual fairy tale that he makes come through with his teaching and this is also the sting of doubt that remains when people leave the FOF. It was “their” choice, “their” dream, “their” fairy tale.

Robert Burton switched the “normal” introspection of every human being with ease “off” and it was/is so easy for him/the FOF/DC to go on like that and to deny the “truth” of the blog/Ex-FOF people etc., because the “first laugh” stimulated the individual “ego” or “self” or whatever to gain more insight, to live a fairy etc. of every single person and Burton/the FOF was just throwing the switch with the aura of a mysterious butterfly.

117. Voloneska

Thanx! A world in a world in a world….

133. another name - October 15, 2009

Just saw the in search of history, Hitler and the occult. ( The history channel) When we were watching it, it was astonishing how many comparisons there were with RB.

Scary, a must see, if you want to educate yourself more on the power of words and brainwashing and how a milions of German nation were brainwashed.

Meme’s….and how we, people can get influenced within months….

Help.

134. surelyujest - October 15, 2009

If Gurdjieff told you the 4th Way originated in ancient Egypt, would you believe him? How do you know for sure, is it written in heiroglyphs? This kind of gullibility is a prime example of the belief system that gets its worshippers to calm the dissonance with talk of verification, when in fact very little can be verified. So in the beginning, someone tells you to verify everything, so you check that box, then proceed to believe everything you’re told: you don’t have a soul, the planets determine your “body type,” and so on ad nauseum.

The thing about the 4th Way is this: if after decades of supposed work you still can’t control your passions, your worst tendencies, can you really call that getting results? A certain amount of wisdom and maturity simply happens with 30 or more years of additional life on earth. If someone has the tendency to lash out when they are angry and call others horrible names, 30-plus years later and you’re still doing it? I’d say that calls for a fundamental reappraisal of the assumptions about the system that is supposed to offer the tools of self-change. I mean if you’re basically still the same, what are all those efforts worth?

135. JonB - October 15, 2009

133- Hitler
Here is another one with the title “Hitler’s Children”. Shocking.

http://www.mayapro10.com/

136. Tatyana - October 15, 2009

134. surelyujest
“The thing about the 4th Way is this: if after decades of supposed work you still can’t control your passions, your worst tendencies, can you really call that getting results?”

The results are that you do not question whether you are in a right place – you know you are, you stop thoughts, because they are just “Is” and you are so lucky and chosen by the Gods, because you have a Conscious Teacher and surrounded by people who want to awaken, you have an amazingly beautiful rose garden, you surrounded by gold alchemy, and you know that the end is near – 2012 is around the corner. So you sit quiet in Oregon House and feed your 9 of hearts. Or smoke pot (so you have more permanent states) … And you serve the School by washing dishes at the Galleria.

Or you might even live in a small trailer on the property for very special people who’s Play is to serve the Teacher and you are on duty every Tuesday and Friday night for more or less ten years by now… And you have nowhere to go, because you have “arrived”…

137. brucelevy - October 15, 2009

A TRIP TO Costco

Yesterday I was at my local COSTCO buying a large bag of Purina dog chow for my loyal pet, Biscuit, the Wonder Dog and was in the checkout line when a woman behind me asked if I had a dog.

What did she think I had, an elephant? So on impulse I told her that no, I didn’t have a dog, I was starting the Purina Diet again. I added that I probably shouldn’t, because I ended up in the hospital last time, but that I’d lost 50 pounds before I awakened in an intensive care ward with tubes coming out of most of my orifices and IVs in both arms.

I told her that it was essentially a perfect diet and that the way that
it works is to load your pants pockets with Purina nuggets and simply
eat one or two every time you feel hungry. The food is nutritionally
complete so it works well and I was going to try it again. (I have to
mention here that practically everyone in line was now enthralled with
my story.) Horrified, she asked if I ended up in intensive care because the dog food poisoned me. I told her no, I stepped off a curb to sniff an Irish Setter’s ass and a car hit us both.

Costco won’t let me shop there anymore.

138. Ill Never Tell - October 15, 2009

137. brucelevy:

Yep, butt sniffin’ at Costco will get you in trouble. Gotta stop that Brucey.

139. another name - October 16, 2009

Jon B

Woooh, thanks for pointing the movie out “Hitler’s children”
Did you see Hitler and the occult? Did you see the resemblance with Robert Burton?

Makes me wonder what our children who grew up in the fof feel?

140. Ellen - October 16, 2009

Bruce, #137. LOL!
As a child, I remember once eating some dog biscuits out of a brightly colored package in an alley with a bunch of my friends. As I recall they tasted pretty good! (my avatar testifies to it)

141. Dr. Pangloss - October 16, 2009

Bruce,
The only part of your story I believe is you sniffing the Irish setter’s ass. I’m sure she was very cute. You lying sack of dog chow.
RUFFF!!

142. veramente - October 17, 2009

137 brucelevy
your costco story made the blog speechless? : )

143. silentpurr - October 17, 2009

meow?

144. ton - October 17, 2009
145. veramente - October 17, 2009

Loved this movie!

Loved this closing song!

THE JACKET

146. Susan Zannos - October 18, 2009

I thought Bruce’s story was amusing the first time I read it on a joke page.

147. brucelevy - October 18, 2009

145. veramente

Me too. It was a good one.

148. ton - October 18, 2009

recently had to take a cpr/ first aid test… this question reminded me of something, someone…. time to call 911:

Q: How should you check a conscious person?

A: Check a conscious person by asking them questions – beginning with whether they would like your assistance or not (they have a right to refuse, and you should oblige them by only calling 911 if they refuse your care). After ascertaining consent, have them demonstrate motion and ask them about pain in each portion of the body from head to toe, avoiding movement of any area that is clearly injured or the victim says is painful.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_should_you_check_a_conscious_person

149. ton - October 18, 2009

re-viewing:

“Messiah complex is a state in which the individual believes themselves to be, or destined to become, the saviour of the particular field, a group, an event, a time period, or in an extreme scenario, the world. This could also be the state in which a group views an individual as a messiah, such as followers of a cult leader. The cult leader doesn’t have to claim to be a messiah, but if he is treated as such by his followers, it can also be classified as such.

People with a messiah complex tend to see themselves as saviors to a specific group of people or a specific field, making claims of their own glory, or claiming a self-awareness of their own gift and how that gift can effect a group of people or a field of life. Messiah Complex may also refer to a person who has formed a habit of “creating” crisis in a given culture, only to later “rescue” or “save” the poor helpless soul upon whom the crisis has been perpetrated. In the most extreme cases, people with a messiah complex may see themselves as spiritual/religious messiahs with transcendent powers who are destined to save the world.

A God complex is a psychological state of mind in which a person believes that they have supernatural powers or god-like abilities. The person generally believes they are above the rules of society and should be given special consideration. There are few academic works specifically addressing god complexes, although a great deal can be found about narcissism.

According to the book All Mighty: A Study of the God Complex in Western Man, by Horst Richter (ISBN 0-89793-028-2), authoritarian compulsions are related to the rebellious stage of childhood development. Richter argues that the arrested development of such compulsions leads to denial of suffering, self-doubt, and death, and an expectation of servility for women, minorities, and lower class.”

and…

“Lack of empathy is a hallmark of narcissistic disorders, and sufferers find it extremely difficult to understand others’ (and their own) emotional states and impact. This makes maintaining close or intimate relationships significantly harder. They may find it difficult to perceive or admit this, or may interpret it as a virtue. It is also worth noting that the individual expressions of grandiosity or arrogance vary with the person’s value system. A person will generally attempt to display superiority as they define it.”

Narcissism — Dandyism

“A dandy is a man who places particular importance upon physical appearance, refined language, and the cultivation of leisurely hobbies. Some dandies, especially in Britain in the late 18th and 19th century, strove to affect aristocratic values even though many came from common backgrounds. Thus, a dandy could be considered a kind of snob.”

The Dandical Body from Sartor Resartus by Thomas Carlyle:

“A Dandy is a clothes-wearing Man, a Man whose trade, office and existence consists in the wearing of Clothes. Every faculty of his soul, spirit, purse, and person is heroically consecrated to this one object, the wearing of Clothes wisely and well: so that the others dress to live, he lives to dress…And now, for all this perennial Martyrdom, and Poesy, and even Prophecy, what is it that the Dandy asks in return? Solely, we may say, that you would recognise his existence; would admit him to be a living object; or even failing this, a visual object, or thing that will reflect rays of light…”

150. Daily Cardiac - October 18, 2009

Crouching Tiger 104:

‘Because I believe Robert Burton is able to induce ‘higher states’ in me, I am prepared to also believe that all his behaviour is excusable as the behaviour of a higher being, whom I cannot understand from my own level’.

“This is what your position boils down to, DC.”

Actually, I do understand Robert’s behaviour “from my own level.” For the most part I understand him well. If I didn’t understand him the FoF would be a cult for me.

To use an analogy; if someone understands Shakespeare well (and
I’m not talking about the meaning of, or behind the words), but that and also why he had to say it exactly how he said it or it wouldn’t be what it is, wouldn’t achieve the same effects or results. The poet in us understands everything about Shakespeare’s poetry that Shakespeare understood himself.

With regards to a spiritual teacher the higher part of the aspirant, the part that seeks the truth, seeks to be awakened, understands the teacher as well as the teacher understands himself or herself. And I don’t mean figuratively, but actually, in the deepest sense of understanding.

My position is that the role of the teacher is to show people their own inner world, the part they will not or cannot see for themselves, and in this regard many things about the aspirant’s “well being” are fair game; like feelings, attitudes, many a taboo / sacred cows are sullied, but sullied for the best reason, in order to go beyond. It is my understanding that not so much as a spiritual “hair” is harmed in a real school, no matter how to the contrary it might seem on the surface.

And if the incorrect attitudes fall away and the correct ones form the aspirant begins to see themselves, others, the world more clearly; without judgment or identification or, more accurately, with less judgment or less identification because as long as we inhabit a physical body we are spiritual prisoners to a degree, and whatever spiritual freedom we achieve we achieve by degree.

I understand that others will not take these words at face value, as they expect their own words to be taken at face value, but will cherry pick through them looking for that seeming contradiction that will invalidate the post in total. But that’s the nature of words. Words trump words.

One of the biggest misunderstandings an individual can have is the belief they can awaken, become enlightened, become more connected to an objective truth or reality on their own terms.

And this one misunderstanding has, in my opinion, been the catalyst for a significant amount of departures from the FoF.

For me the FoF is bigger than Robert, and one day will continue on after Robert. I stay because it works for me; it creates and provides an environment conducive to the nature of seeing the obstacles to awakening/enlightenment.

I can only know for certain why it works for me and cannot know for certain why it does not work for another, and I suspect the reverse is true. Someone who it does not or did not work for cannot know for certain why it works for another. In that case there will always be a divide.

151. brucelevy - October 19, 2009

150. Daily Cardiac

Never mind.

152. James Mclemore - October 19, 2009

151. brucelevy –

Yes. The word that came to me after reading that post, was ‘dreamlike’.

153. nige - October 19, 2009

150 daily cardiac

What becomes awakened, then?…..Nigel.

154. Daily Cardiac - October 19, 2009

Nigel – 153:

150 daily cardiac

“What becomes awakened, then?…..Nigel.”

Presence.

155. nige - October 19, 2009

To Daily Cariac from Elena and Nigel…..

“I know I was deep down in the gutter and you can perceive such things but there is always a way out of the gutter and the sun shines more brightly every time! Don’t they say we have to go down before we go up? And where we are going we are still going to have to touch base many, many more times!”

Oscar Wilde said “All men are in the gutter, but some are looking at the stars”. From my experience, we have to go down to the ‘core of our being’ before the pheonix in us can be reborn…..Nigel.

156. Crouching Tiger - October 19, 2009

DC.

“My position is that the role of the teacher is to show people their own inner world, the part they will not or cannot see for themselves”

Anyone or anything can show you the contents of your own inner world. The more of your life you embrace the more this becomes a reality for you. But a teacher is there to guide you around it responsibly. If he cannot prevent his own automatic behaviour from clouding that guidance, then he’s not doing his job – and you should get your money back.

“One of the biggest misunderstandings an individual can have is the belief they can awaken, become enlightened, become more connected to an objective truth or reality on their own terms.”

True in the abstract, but the terms of surrender depend on the guide. If he/she proves unreliable or suspect, even in the slightest degree, then the terms of the surrender are fatally compromised.

Ultimately, you DC can only copy the mode of being you see in your teacher. That is what he is teaching you. Within the terms of your own personality, you’ll evolve the same virtues and the same vices. The fact that you can’t see the vices is your problem.

You may well feel that it’s the higher part of you that’s connecting to third states through Robert Burton. But the only thing that connects you to the other aspects of his personality is blind faith. Because the one is experienced as very powerful, you want to believe that everything else is rosy in the other areas of the garden, too.

The body is full of chemical possibilities. All thoughts and feelings and sensations you experience are different chemical combinations occurring in and through the body. Everything is Matter. A certain combination can produce the feeling of a higher state. It is no truer or more long-lasting than the irritation you felt when the paper wasn’t delivered on time this morning, or the pain in your foot when you put on that new pair of shoes for the first time.

Until you pay no more attention to the first than the second or the third, you can never understand the connections in either your own, or Burton’s being… But you treasure your higher states too much, so you can’t see the treasure in the gutter. Your notion of presence has defined limits.

157. Ellen - October 19, 2009

150, DC,
Nice (for you) that you are still participating here. It may continue to sharpen your intellect?

As I read your post, I understood that you have an unquestioned intellectual structure which you use to make sense of your world. In that world, Robert Burton, the Fellowship of Friends, other members, former members and life in general all have a specified description and value. That structure is an aspect of your personal reality, of your person. In that world everything works just fine until one day you realize that “awakening is from the person not of the person” (Nisargadatta).

The day that you deeply understand that quotation will be the day you begin to question whether Robert is in fact free from being a person himself and whether he has any qualifications whatsoever beyond your own belief system (and that of other members) to guide, untainted by his own personal fears and desires, other people in such a radically liberating surrender.

Otherwise, (IMO) if you are not interested in questioning your own assumptions here, there is nothing to discuss. But as ever, good luck to you.

158. ton - October 19, 2009

re: dc,
this is the definition of a closed mind… with the blind faith of a dc, as with any fundamentalist mentality, there is no possibility for error and so there is no use in arguing with DC, unless you are looking for an exercise in futility. dc is so certain of the infallibility of a narrow set of beliefs that there is no room for any possibility of error… in fact the real possibility of error is very threatening to dc. i suggest that this seemingly ‘rock-solid’ faith that dc occasionally comes here to display, actually exists in a very tenuous state. dc needs to come here to defend this blind faith in order to continue to support and inflate the self-deception that is at the foundation of an absurd world-view. when bloggers point out the blind spots in this unshakable faith, this requires dc to rationalize all the more convincingly to plug obvious fallacies; thereby the cycle of self deception continues and even gets a little stronger as dc becomes even more convinced and certain through the process of rationalizing the irrational.

159. Ellen - October 19, 2009

Just to be precise:
“Liberation is never of the person, it is always from the person.”
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

160. Kid Shelleen - October 19, 2009

My Daily Onion horoscope says everything one needs to know about Enlightenment!

Scorpio Oct 24 – Nov 21

Every day, in every way, you’re getting better and better. But at this rate, you won’t be good enough for 64 more years.

161. Tatyana - October 19, 2009

150. Daily Cardiac

“With regards to a spiritual teacher the higher part of the aspirant, the part that seeks the truth, seeks to be awakened, understands the teacher as well as the teacher understands himself or herself. And I don’t mean figuratively, but actually, in the deepest sense of understanding.

My position is that the role of the teacher is to show people their own inner world, the part they will not or cannot see for themselves, and in this regard many things about the aspirant’s “well being” are fair game; like feelings, attitudes, many a taboo / sacred cows are sullied, but sullied for the best reason, in order to go beyond. It is my understanding that not so much as a spiritual “hair” is harmed in a real school, no matter how to the contrary it might seem on the surface.

One of the biggest misunderstandings an individual can have is the belief they can awaken, become enlightened, become more connected to an objective truth or reality on their own terms.”

Even just reading this puts me into a trance state. I don’t know if the trance state is higher or lower, but I know that one can get addicted to it and get stuck in it. Also, in this state people are doing strange things which they wouldn’t do if they were “sober”.

“Taboos” and “going beyond” is a very dangerous area for kids to play.

Take care, DC.

162. another voice - October 19, 2009

DC. Your words are very well crafted and I appreciate that. I also see the “dreaminess” of your post as noted by others. But behind the well crafted reasoning I cannot help but think there may be a great fear….the fear of leaving the Fellowship. And this fear is shared by all centers, especially the instinctive center. I know, I had to go thru it in order to leave. It is like jumping off a cliff into the unknown. Your case may be different, but at least give it consideration. I wish you all the best.

163. dragon - October 19, 2009

150. DC

I’ve been thinking…

“For me the FoF is bigger than Robert, and one day will continue on after Robert. I stay because it works for me; it creates and provides an environment conducive to the nature of seeing the obstacles to awakening/enlightenment.”

164. Vena - October 19, 2009

From Daily Cardiac:

“The poet in us understands everything about Shakespeare’s poetry that Shakespeare understood himself.

With regards to a spiritual teacher the higher part of the aspirant, the part that seeks the truth, seeks to be awakened, understands the teacher as well as the teacher understands himself or herself. And I don’t mean figuratively, but actually, in the deepest sense of understanding.”
_________________________________________________________________

Sounds nice but at best a basically meaningless statement if not a lie, meant to produce “self-calming”.

165. Tatyana - October 19, 2009

What becomes awakened then? – Nige
Presence – DC

Don’t you think in this case “presence” is a loaded word? That you are addicted to (identified with)?

Similarly for some people a word “holy grail” will produce exactly the same effect of extatic emotion. Ding!!

What you call Presence is a state, but what if it is not more awaken but less awaken state?

166. nige - October 19, 2009

Presence becomes awakened, to DC, just as a hole is dug to have a hole full of fresh air. I hardly ever, these days, think of, or use, the term ‘level of being’. It is just up and down the po-go stick of FOF blaah-talk. If we could exchange the phrase for ‘nature of being’, then perhaps out conversations would bear more fruit…..Nigel.

167. nige - October 19, 2009

166 nige

…..as in REB’s nature of being is as an addict and pervert and charlatan.N.

168. Tatyana - October 19, 2009

“Is the higher state of self-consciousness — admittedly a subtle state — an illusion or a myth? Are all the detractors correct, that “consciousness” is simply an idea used to manipulate fools out of their money and into bed? Is it true that a good life needs no higher consciousness?

Or is actual self-consciousness, what the Fourth Way calls the third state of consciousness, simply so elusive that not only do those once interested in it deny its existence but even declare that it is nothing compared to the cosmic consciousness they now exist in?

Is the state that produces the condition of non-identification possible? What is non-identification in the first place?” ~ Greg G.

Good questions, Greg.

I don’t know!

Self-consciousness seems helpful, but only if it is not turning into a paranoia and isolated state, bitterness etc.

Cosmic Consciousness I don’t know much about.

I am not sure if the “states” any kinds of states are really that important. I wouldn’t bet my money on them at this point as well as on immortality. I would bet my money on things like truth, understanding, intelligence, inspiration, taste, patience, wisdom, sincerety, kindness etc. They seem more related to a “man’s possible evolution”.

169. Tatyana - October 19, 2009

Self-consciousness makes sence as a responsibility for oneself, one’s weaknesses and imbalances. Know thyself. Useful thing, but does not make one ‘very special’ and chosen in any way.

170. nige - October 20, 2009

169 Tatyana

Believe me – you would not want to be awake in the 4th state of consciousness for too long – it could get you into a whole lot of trouble…..Nigel.

171. Yesri Baba - October 20, 2009

“Or is actual self-consciousness, what the Fourth Way calls the third state of consciousness, simply so elusive that not only do those once interested in it deny its existence but even declare that it is nothing compared to the cosmic consciousness they now exist in?”

Or is it possible that there are people that know much more about the whole shebang than you do who have tried to straighten out your bent 4th way thinking only to have those efforts interpreted from that bent thinking? Ya think?

172. Crouching Tiger - October 20, 2009

“Or is actual self-consciousness, what the Fourth Way calls the third state of consciousness, simply so elusive that not only do those once interested in it deny its existence but even declare that it is nothing compared to the cosmic consciousness they now exist in?”

Maybe there are some who just got a little tired of ‘trying to be emotional’ and acquire states, when the payment is addictions in other areas of life – darvon, sex, alcohol, drugs…

The issue in the fellowship is that Presence is Conditional – it means giving up something that is actually essential to the process of living your life, and labelling it [wrongly] ‘the lower self’.

173. Mikey - October 20, 2009

Let me get this straight Tatyana (168): Are you quoting the Great Greg Goodwin? If so, you are preaching to the peanut gallery.

174. another name - October 21, 2009

Good point guys.

DC, TF, too much mind and fear for my understanding. Especially people who are at age, leaving the fellowship is very painful. It is a grief process which can effect physical health.

So yes, keep dreaming and rationalize yourself in a School, when it is a cult.
When your teacher is under the influence of medication and his extensive need of sex. You still call him a teacher?

One of the benefits of leaving the fellowship is the fact that I have regained my empowerment. It was hard to get there but it is still growing. Yes DC, I have gone through some cardiac pains.

175. X-ray - October 21, 2009

150. Daily Cardiac – October 18, 2009

‘Because I believe Robert Burton is able to induce ‘higher states’ in me, I am prepared to also believe that all his behaviour is excusable as the behaviour of a higher being, whom I cannot understand from my own level’.

Actually, I do understand Robert’s behaviour “from my own level.” For the most part I understand him well. If I didn’t understand him the FoF would be a cult for me.

You cannot understand because you are a bag of shit like your pathetic teacher.
Your place is where you are, a Fellowshit of Shit.

176. nige - October 21, 2009

PAY AND DO NOT SUCCEED – The FOF Creed…..Nigel.

177. Mikey - October 21, 2009

The following story is for Ellen & Dragon, the rest of you need not pay attention (as usual).
“If one already believes in God, does it matter then if one believes that Meher Baba is God? In other words, as a Christian if one already believes in Jesus, is there any further point in believing that Baba is Jesus?
This question was often asked of Meher Baba’s mandali, although in India it was asked relevant to Krishna or perhaps Rama. The mandali never went around proclaiming that Meher Baba was the Avatar, and Baba would not allow them to do so. He said, “If I am what I am, I don’t need publicity agents.” Nevertheless, discussions pertaining to this question regularly occurred with people who were not Baba lovers. The mandali were asked directly, “I have Krishna, why to I need Meher Baba?” The mandali did not know how to answer, so Meher Baba gave them the following anecdote know as the “Quaker Oats” story.
In India, Quaker Oats is seen as a nutritious wholesome, and popular breakfast cereal. A mother on rising one morning to prepare breakfast for her children found that her tin of Quaker Oats was almost empty. She quickly rushed to the grocer to buy another. When she entered the store, she saw that she was in luck – there was one tin left on the shelf. When she asked to buy it, however, the grocer refused again and again to sell it to her. She continued to insist on buying this last tin. Finally, the groceer interrupted and explained that he wanted to sell her a tin from a fresh shipment he had just received. Meher Baba then said,
What mother is there who would insist on buying the old stock when she could purchase a tin of the fresh new stock? I am the fresh stock….It is all Quaker Oats, the ingredients are the same, but I am the fresh stock.”
-From the chapter “More to Come” by Kenneth Lux.

178. Voloneska - October 21, 2009

“Or is actual self-consciousness, what the Fourth Way calls the third state of consciousness, simply so elusive that not only do those once interested in it deny its existence but even declare that it is nothing compared to the cosmic consciousness they now exist in?”

Or is actual redemption, forgivness of sins and surrender to God’s will, what Christian religion calls salvation, simply so elusive that not only do those once interested in it deny its existence but even declare that it is nothing compared to the cosmic consciousness they now exist in?

FOF story is correct magnetic center necessary to recognise real school. Usually some story like above – seeker who is unfulfilled in ‘B’ influence is in market for school 3rd line capture, same like Mormons or Hari Krishnas.
First step to be member is destroy old ideas – this liberation experience. Then replace old ideas with new – this servitude experience.
Generalization is FOF members not able to find place (believe) previous systems they belong to (can also be normal materialistic existense)- so look more for truth system.

DC – what so mysterious about discovery that FOF is not different? Much more probable failiure of FOF members who not see this than personal failiure of ex-FOF members who recognise fact and declare FOF and Burton a fraud. Can FOF be such big exception when full of same systems of control and fulfils so many ‘cult conditions;?

To make counter agrument you must believe FOF special and different. Not good enough to spend all time talking and talking about how special and different – that is not proof. Must discover other things, must make comparative study. If you do this with sincere approach you will leave FOF. This reason all such enquiring is prohibited in FOF and health warning “this kind of thinking can take you out of school’ stamped on all non FOF things. Burton anexes whole cultural, philosophical and religious history of mankind to make safe. You can study everything in world – but must be to see divine sequence in everything. This complete caputre and servitude of mind. you pay big price for what you have. What you have is hope and belief. This same for many other people. This will not change, must be human probable behavior. You fall into majority not exclusive minority.
Something good is FOF more truthful by moving from 4th Way ideas, because in school of psychologcal understanding Burton simplistic pseudo ideas clearly big contradiction. If stay with Ouspensky idea of study of psychology (and human) study of lieing, then FOF clearly total faliure. You can say that main FOF principle is that to experiense correct presence you must give up all ‘I’s not related to Burton teaching. This very very different from exposing lie, imitated behavior, unfounded beliefs, cultural bias, hub of personal problems, stimulus response mechanism and general mechanicality of human being from 4th Way.

179. nige - October 21, 2009

I found this ‘jewel’ on an ‘alternative’ site and have no idea who wrote it, but I think it makes very, very, very interesting reading…..Nigel.

“What is Burton selling and who is he selling it to? Besides the idea, the in-cult myth, of consciousness which only occurs to people that feel like they do not have enough of it, people dissatisfied with their sense of reality, Burton sells 1) the illusion of exclusivity and 2) the illusion of “positive emotion.” Along with these commodities he also once sold 3) the end of economic security, 4) the end of California, 5) the end of the world and 6) the only possibility of survival. Naturally 3, 4, 5 and 6 are no longer credible merchandise. What Burton sells to his cult members is the belief that they are blessed, due to his cosmic connections, with the only attention from powers on high directed to people on earth. He tries to maintain this illusion of exclusive blessing by fostering a continuous atmosphere of celebration and elation among his gathering.

For himself, he feels pretty good about his lot in life because he has managed to keep himself in income and willing partners purveying these emotional products for 40 years. Dressed like a gay pimp he attends near daily parties in ridiculously pompous attire smiling for all the world like he hasn’t a care in the universe and insists with the conviction of a madman that, while the rest of world will suffer the fate of rabid dogs, he and his will rise on golden clouds to live on the Sun sharing hydrogen apartments with famous geniuses from history (this is literally what he has claimed).

Who in their right mind buys this ‘product’? No one in their right mind, of course. Burton attracts the borderline psychotics out of the society. He teaches them the superficial exhilaration of narcissism and instructs them in the elaborate hallucinogenic world of schizophrenia. The borderline followers then imagine they have been initiated into “esoteric reality” and saved from the “formatory” delusions of the ordinary doomed people of everyday life. So, if you are a misfit lunatic type struggling to find meaning in a world focused on the necessities of life and you encounter the haughty and pretentious affectations deliberately displayed at one of Burton’s introductory meetings you naturally conclude that you’ve found “your people” and of course you have. Once it is explained to you the uncompromising devastation to be suffered if you ever dare leave then you are likely willing to do anything you are told to keep a handle on your ticket to paradise.

Eventually hippies in their twenties grow out of all this. Eventually hippies forced to become yuppies reaching their late 30’s and early 40’s, even 50’s, realize that being a crazy cult member for your entire life is not all that interesting and they leave. They leave when the in-your-face selfishness and greed of Burton, as he wanders around grinning from ear-to-ear (usually because some 20 year old Russian boy has just serviced him) dressed like a cracker-pimp from Arkansas while spouting a new teaching based on an interpretation of cave paintings of animal dung, becomes enough of a spectacle to penetrate and irritate even the tolerance of lunatics.”

180. Daily Cardiac - October 22, 2009

Tatyana – 165:

“Don’t you think in this case “presence” is a loaded word? That you are addicted to (identified with)?”

One can be identified with being present but one cannot be present if one identified with it. To be Present is to go beyond identification.

181. Opus 111 - October 22, 2009

DC

One can be identified with being present but one cannot be present if one identified with it. To be Present is to go beyond identification.

Pffffft! That was an original thought!

182. Ames Gilbert - October 22, 2009

Volenska, (#178), you are right on the money again, IMO.

And #179 sounds like Greg Goodwin or his twin to me. I’m surprised it materialized by itself, though. I’d expect some diatribe about the uselessness of this blog, or ex-followers being indistinguishable from followers in their self-deception to accompany it. Still, there is that certain familiar flavor, IMO.

183. Tatyana - October 22, 2009

180. Daily Cardiac

I am present now. I am not sure if I am Present, but I am here. So?
Do I need to pay someone for that?

184. Yesri Baba - October 22, 2009

183 Tatyana

You are always present, no? Isn’t this the only thing you know with absolute certainty? Simply notice this certainty and you may begin to feel it was born with a capital P.

185. harryhindsight - October 22, 2009

Daily Cardigan,

“One can be identified with being present but one cannot be present if one identified with it. To be Present is to go beyond identification.”

You’re a smug jackass.

Harry

186. Voloneska - October 22, 2009

DC
“One can be identified with being present but one cannot be present if one identified with it. To be Present is to go beyond identification.”

First, of course, sounds like daily card offer – If you give this to Burton he will say something like ‘yes dear, to be Present is to BE beyond identification, is long BE from using our sacred sequence. Tell Gr.. you will come to the dinner this evening.’

‘To be Present is to go beyond identification’. What does this mean in actuality? Like Bush saying ‘To be great nation is to go beyond power’ or artist saying ‘To create art work is to go beyond self expression’. Possible to say many cute pseudo truism ideas. Socates finds out people who say things like this are fools. Not because idea is bad, but because no rational mind behind idea to make real and use idea. This reason why Socrates like architype teacher specialist to bring birth to rational mind by question technic, not by telling people cute truism. How many people repeat over again prayer, political statment or metaphysical statement and then they think they have secret.
Presence bigger than Burton. Presence cannot be contained in Burton statement or in your valuation, DC. Answer cannot be found by accepting answer from FOF. Only answer get form FOF can be answer of Burton question ‘how do I keep going’. Presence not about control.
Go beyond identification. What means this – no reference point any more but live in reality- but this cannot be truth without reference point, is only words and feelings about to be without reference point. Noddin head because you get big idea ‘ Yes, To be Present is to go beyond identification’. Like for you to say ‘E=MC2, Yes mass = energy. Now I understand’, or you can say ‘Universe is infinite, Yes, now I understand.
If can call FOF school, Burton correct, FOF like kindergarten. If Burton will adopt Motessori method you will do better because then he will teach you how to think for yourself.
Also, DC, I do not mind if you answer sometime.

187. Ellen - October 22, 2009

Mickey, #177
Thanks. I’ll check it out. Here’s the link for any other interested parties.
http://www.amazon.com/Meher-Baba-Tortoise-Kenneth-Lux/dp/0970097409

188. dragon - October 22, 2009

179. nige

the FOF = an attractive offer for borderline psychotics?

Borderline psychotics are very difficult to treat.

Is Robert’s treatment better than all public health all around the world?

Borderline psycotics tend towards self-injury.

Is somebody out there able to confirm that? Are FOF members cutting themselves or doing something else concerning self-injury?

DC,

are you aware of those occurences? The borderliner-psychotics choose hidden spots on their skin (covered with clothes)?

189. surelyujest - October 22, 2009

179 nige

“Who in their right mind buys this ‘product’? No one in their right mind, of course. Burton attracts the borderline psychotics out of the society. He teaches them the superficial exhilaration of narcissism and instructs them in the elaborate hallucinogenic world of schizophrenia. The borderline followers then imagine they have been initiated into “esoteric reality” and saved from the “formatory” delusions of the ordinary doomed people of everyday life. So, if you are a misfit lunatic type struggling to find meaning in a world focused on the necessities of life and you encounter the haughty and pretentious affectations deliberately displayed at one of Burton’s introductory meetings you naturally conclude that you’ve found “your people” and of course you have. Once it is explained to you the uncompromising devastation to be suffered if you ever dare leave then you are likely willing to do anything you are told to keep a handle on your ticket to paradise.”

I would agree with this, but point out that this is not unique to Burton. This has been the situation with the 4th Way from the beginning. You could just as easily apply this to Gurdjieff’s group, or Ouspensky’s.

The 4th Way is a highly perfected instrument for cult indoctrination, inducing in its followers all the usual cult attributes: narcissism, a feeling of being special, having secret knowledge that outsiders just can’t understand, the key to eternal life, a special relationship with higher forces…

190. Mikey - October 22, 2009

Goshes and golly-goods, Mr. Wizard.
What to do with a guy that advocates immoral and criminal behavior for himself and his followers?

191. Daily Cardiac - October 22, 2009

ton – 158:

“re: dc,
this is the definition of a closed mind… with the blind faith of a dc, as with any fundamentalist mentality, there is no possibility for error and so there is no use in arguing with DC, unless you are looking for an exercise in futility. dc is so certain of the infallibility of a narrow set of beliefs that there is no room for any possibility of error… in fact the real possibility of error is very threatening to dc. i suggest that this seemingly ‘rock-solid’ faith that dc occasionally comes here to display, actually exists in a very tenuous state. dc needs to come here to defend this blind faith in order to continue to support and inflate the self-deception that is at the foundation of an absurd world-view. when bloggers point out the blind spots in this unshakable faith, this requires dc to rationalize all the more convincingly to plug obvious fallacies; thereby the cycle of self deception continues and even gets a little stronger as dc becomes even more convinced and certain through the process of rationalizing the irrational.”

Each point you raise could be applied by me to your mindset, for example:

with the blind faith of a ton, as with any fundamentalist mentality, there is no possibility for error and so there is no use in arguing with ton, unless you are looking for an exercise in futility.

ton is so certain of the infallibility of a narrow set of beliefs that there is no room for any possibility of error…

The last statement could be applied to almost any comment by any critic on this blog.

I have said this much in my own way about some regular contributors several times. Where does that leave us? If you could see that anything you write about me can be applied to your own story you might drop the pretense of all-knowingness and be that much closer to a real discussion.

You are professing your own truths here just as I am. That we disagree does not automatically grant either one of us the title of Purveyor of Truth.

Truth exists independent from the pixels that form the “words” we write. Anyone posting here can be closer to or farther from truth in their writings. If you and others can get off the obvious reality that we disagree with what the FoF is, some real issues might get touched on.

“dc needs to come here to defend this blind faith in order to continue to support and inflate the self-deception that is at the foundation of an absurd world-view.”

Which “absurd” world view are you referring to – the one that claims that consciousness does not fit into the pat morality that many here promote?

Basically, from the words written it cannot be known if they are based on “blind faith” or on an accurate description of my experiences.

You claim it is blind faith I claim otherwise. The validity of the words cannot be known from their mere arrangement or appearance on a virtual page. If you do not know that much then you don’t know at least one reasonable thing that might nudge you further along the path of truth.

One of the real differences between what you write and what I write is this – I write from my own experiences about my own experiences. I don’t refute the words of others. I simply contend that the experiences of those who oppose the FoF differ from my own; so if critics are being honest then it’s obvious that the FoF experience is big enough to fit both positions into it.

Your position seems to be that since you had a different experience in the FoF than mine then it stands to follow that I must be lying. Why is that the only logical conclusion in this situation? Can you bring yourself to ponder other possible reasons for our disagreement? Can there be no other reality than the one you and a handful of others experience? Who does that make you?

192. WhaleRider - October 22, 2009

daily cardiac:

So your opinion is that if you are “identified” you are not present, and by the same token, if you are “present” you are not identified. You claim these two states are mutually exclusive, right?

If Burton is not identifed and always present as his followers like you claim he is, then what does it matter which brand of underwear or socks he wears? He seems very identified with the brand of clothes he wears and the car he is driven in. Why would he throw a hissy fit about not obtaining a particular pair of gold cuff links?

Does not the FOF teach its followers to identify with “gold alchemy”?

IMO, the idea of state of being “not identified” and the pursuit of a “gold alchemy” are mutually exclusive.

Ergo: FOF members and their leader are not as “present” as they claim.

193. Crouching Tiger - October 22, 2009

DC.

One way the difference in viewpoints might be expressed is as follows:

There a number of people here who are, or have been prepared to consider the possibility of ‘Robert Burton the Conscious Being’ – at one time or another. They are also able to consider the reality of ‘Robert Burton the man’, often from the vantage point of their own personal experiences with him. Their views are the result of trying to bring the two versions of Burton to some kind of resolution.

You however are still at the stage of considering only the first possibility, because you are a fellowship ‘professional’. You have never once discussed Burton simply as a man – at least without recourse to your theory about conscious behaviour being invisible to ordinary mortals.

That is why the reference to Blind Faith recurs. It comes from your own unwillingness to attend to both halves of the debate equally.

If one man can see two points of view, and the other only one, whose understanding is likely to have more meat on the bone?

194. surelyujest - October 22, 2009

People who are invested in a group and its leader are the worst ones to evaluate the leader’s behavior. Daily Cardiac has invested years, maybe decades, in this organization, so he has a very vested interest in seeing Burton in the best possible light. Unfortunately for DC, this behavior is highly typical of any member of any cult-like group, from Scientology to the Mansons — resorting to justifying what anyone else would call bad behavior by saying that the ordinary rules don’t apply to the leader…even benighted “life people” can see how ludicrous this position is. The need to calm the cognitive dissonance is very clear.

To justify further by saying that your “states” and “emotions” are some kind of proof — I remember these states, and I remember believing that they were real. Isn’t one of your lessons supposed to be that these things aren’t real? You have huge gaping area where you don’t apply your own ideas. If you did, you would be appalled…

195. Jomo Piñata - October 22, 2009

Lacuna Piñata, I ask you again. All the keying: Exegesis or eisegesis?

196. voloneska - October 22, 2009

DC
‘ton is so certain of the infallibility of a narrow set of beliefs that there is no room for any possibility of error…

The last statement could be applied to almost any comment by any critic on this blog’

Hmm… Many people on blog have quite open mind. You also in this post more open (but not this quote above)
*
‘One of the real differences between what you write and what I write is this – I write from my own experiences about my own experiences. I don’t refute the words of others. I simply contend that the experiences of those who oppose the FoF differ from my own; so if critics are being honest then it’s obvious that the FoF experience is big enough to fit both positions into it.’

Any experience can fit big paradox inside. Do you not think this is one big reason that people look for truth.
Truth understanding not about experiences being different, more about seeing experiences differently – often with benefit of hindsight. DC first love experience not so different from my own. DC FOF experience also not so different from my own. But now I stand after it and am bigger than FOF experience, FOF only part of my life. DC has FOF experience as eternal meaning. This big difference from perspective view, even if experience same.
*
‘Your position seems to be that since you had a different experience in the FoF than mine then it stands to follow that I must be lying. Why is that the only logical conclusion in this situation?’

I do not think you must be lying. You are in middle of FOF experience but OK to be open a small way at least to doubting. When in FOF, normal to support and find objective reason for FOF way to do things and Burton way to do things. Much time/energy in FOF goes to this purpose. Many attitudes build up to explain FOF and Burton must be right/good. You must think possible that – maybe intentional creation of new attitudes way to say brainwashing, because this exactly what brainwashing is.
In brainwashing – no person can do this to you, can only create condition for washing own brain. Is volunteer duty even with threats, fear and evil tactic.
In FOF, when don’t understand so much an idea, often someone can help with ‘Time is a factor’ quote. Then with patient wait idea not so difficult because can accept in subliminal way because can act like understand.
Maybe DC you need try experiment for finding out what ex FOF people thinking is. Try to neither accept or deny Burton and FOF fraud, only keep in mind. Try to see how all things in FOF grow for control reason. Try to see mythology of gods like simple, stupid idea. Try to see Burton life like of corrupt man with big greed, sex addiction, dominance, vanity and psychological problem from living free from restrictions in own private fiefdom. Try to see FOF members like they afraid and brainwashed. When you do this be present. I guarantee this good excercise to go more deep into moment and see many things you cannot see with positive, loyal disciple attitude. You also see much, much more about self. Own reasons to brainwash self, own fear, weakness and stupidity.
Reason you will not do this – simple. You cannot do this and stay in school like Burton student, maybe can stay for time like in friends club. You know this. Your understanding depends on many attitudes you have builded up for years, so will be big personal challenge if you do this.
Real school of psychology will not be afraid to know this fact. Real school of psychology will not dismiss anything not matching positive attitude as ‘lower self’, ‘many ‘I’s’ etc. FOF will go in path of least resistance to follow Burton. Burton will go in path of least resistance because he is sick. This cannot be ‘evolution’ for follower.
If you want make loose fixed attitudes from FOF so can see more truth, remember ‘Time is a Factor’. It will take time to make loose mechanical reactions, and G..Haven for many years teaches that attitude is personality programming students can change to give more chance to stay in school. G. H can stay in school so long because he can manufacture attitude with #1 purpose to keep him in school. This is to put waggon before horse.

197. voloneska - October 22, 2009

DC on weekend I go on 3 month travel, so if want to reply I would like to hear. Maybe last time on blog otherwise.

198. Opus 111 - October 22, 2009

Some of this reminds me of the the creationists affirming the fact that intelligent design provides a perfectly acceptable “explanation” for the world we live in, actually a much better one than the theory of evolution with all its holes and overall implausibility. However, stating that an omnipotent being created the universe is not providing an “explanation”, it is expressing an article of faith.

When I read DC, it is very much like listening to the activists in the creationist movement who, in trying to convince the “intellectuals” of the scientific community, invite anthropologists, geologists, astrophysicists, biologists to repeat in a complicated and “scientific” way the same article of faith: It is entirely possible that it was all created by an intelligent designer.

199. James Mclemore - October 22, 2009

voloneska

Hope you have a wonderful series of travelling experiences. I will personally miss your voice.

200. James Mclemore - October 22, 2009

DC – You wrote……

“Each point you raise could be applied by me to your mindset”

Your attempt to make it sound that all that is really going on here is simply just a difference of opinion between where you find yourself to be and the variety of positions of many of the people who regularly post here is beginning to be a bit pathetic and boring. You have a manner of writing (which is not nearly as fluid or subtle as I suspect you imagine), in which you try to reflect to us a picture of a calm and level-headed sincerity, and of how you are so innocently frustrated by people’s dismantling of the FoF and what you have to say. You tell us that you only wish us to see that it is just a personal difference and choice, and you magnanimously tell us that there is ‘room for all’, if we could only see it clearly. I used to think that you used this technique as just a device to obscure and take the essential message of the blog in a bit different direction in order to try and neutralize it. But you know, I am beginning to wonder if you may actually believe that is all there is to it. As I said before, your posts sometimes take on an almost dream-like quality. They, at least in part, do not sound like they come from the human mind at times, but from something robotic.

I find myself wondering what it must be like for you to monitor this blog and take the part of apologist for the FoF. Wow!! What an ‘octave’, as I suppose you would call it. I would think for the part of you that is the ‘esoteric student’ and ardent follower of RB (which, if you could look closely, is simply a group of thoughts about who you think you are), it might just be ‘frustrating as a son-of-a-bitch’ to read what gets written here. But I also find myself wondering if you ever have any tiny, little short moments of questioning about where you find yourself to be, and maybe questioning some of those thoughts inside that seem to define you. I certainly hope so.

201. James Mclemore - October 22, 2009

DC

ps – For something different why don’t you take a shot at Jomo’s twice-posed question? If you are a bit ‘vocabulary challenged’ like me, you may have to look the definition of those words up, but it is a very interesting topic.

202. harryhindsight - October 22, 2009

Daily Mostlywhack,

“Which “absurd” world view are you referring to – the one that claims that consciousness does not fit into the pat morality that many here promote?”

Is pat morality an Irishman or are you merely as I suspect, regurgitating one of the more popular and prevalent “group buffers” of the fellowship?

i.e. the buffer which says something to the effect that; anyone objecting to anything that conscious Bob does or says is merely expressing a subjective, socially programmed and thus mechanical moral judgement showing the degree to which they are asleep?

That such a judgement, viewed in the light of the higher world which you have convinced yourself Bob must inhabit, is to be dismissed?

That if the objectors were to try harder, they might possibly be blessed with the insight that if for example, conscious Bob grooms a young Russian student for anal fisting, this is actually an expression of the degree of his freedom and awe inspiring being?

It’s not about morality, pinhead!

Harry.

203. ton - October 23, 2009

re:dc 191
gee dc, you sound a little defensive… i think i hit a nerve, that’s good, it indicates something anyway… maybe only a functioning nerve/sense system but that’s a start. ya we could go back and forth with the old tired arguments where kettle calls the pot black… but i don’t have time or the inclination to entertain that, it will get us nowhere, so i’ll just suggest that if you will really take in and digest what is written here, not just by me, but others who take their time to address their comments to you, then it would save a lot of time and effort… oh, but now it occurs to me that ‘nowhere’ is probably an apt description of your condition, that’s where you’re at… you live in a state wherein you believe ‘consciousness’ is conditional and based solely on the judgments of and dependent upon ‘dispensation’ by your ‘teacher’ — it’s tragic/comedy… to exist in a twilight zone wherein you rely and depend on approval from a father figure…. the sad facts are that you believe in a fairy’s tale, and he’s happy to take advantage of you… you imagine that with obedience to your ‘teacher’ you will be granted an imagined ‘prize’ and the saddest/funniest part of all is that the ‘prize’ is something only you can grant yourself but you’re looking in the wrong place, the ‘prize’ is not outside in your ‘teacher’ even though you imagine it to be… to realize this you have to have a self, a ‘center’ and that’s were the stumbling block is for you… you have a hole at the core of your being, you give yourself to this predator you call a ‘teacher’ and as a result you abdicate your own personal responsibility…. to your self.

to address a couple of things dc wrote, i quote:
“One of the real differences between what you write and what I write is this – I write from my own experiences about my own experiences. I don’t refute the words of others. I simply contend that the experiences of those who oppose the FoF differ from my own; so if critics are being honest then it’s obvious that the FoF experience is big enough to fit both positions into it.
Your position seems to be that since you had a different experience in the FoF than mine then it stands to follow that I must be lying. Why is that the only logical conclusion in this situation? Can you bring yourself to ponder other possible reasons for our disagreement? Can there be no other reality than the one you and a handful of others experience? Who does that make you?”

hey dc, you point out the differences between us… yes, that’s a good sign, very good, you noticed that there are differences…. but you are mistaken, i too write from my experiences and i never once called you a liar here. i have commented and will continue to comment on your delusional thought processes and the depth of your ‘sleep.’ dc you need to get a clue if you hope to return to the real world… i think deep down within you, that’s what your involvement on the blog is about… but until you are able to work up the courage to jump ship you’ll continue to post your rationalizations, that keeps your self-delusion bolstered for now, but i think beneath all that lies another layer of meaning to your participation here which leads naturally to your eventual emancipation / graduation from the fof… or not… maybe you’te a lifer… anyway for what it’s worth and in the mean time, here’s one clue from the real world, to state the obvious — everybody is different and no two people interpret an experience in exactly the same way… i am an individual you see, but the fact that you lump me in with a group here says a lot about your inability to differentiate…. it’s you against the world, right dc? did you read that link to the messiah/martyr complex? too much time in a cult will have that effect on a person. and to answer your question “who does that make me?” i am what i am.

204. Daily Cardiac - October 23, 2009

Jomo my sister – 195:

“Lacuna Piñata, I ask you again. All the keying: Exegesis or eisegesis?”

The Keys are merely symbols; not unlike a green light. If someone driving sees a green light as they approach an intersection they do not have to think about it, or interpret it. They know it means to continue on.

If it’s red they know to stop. It’s no different with the keys – they are symbols. If one sees a key one is reminded of an appropriate action – often it is a reminder to interrupt a momentum and simply try to be in the moment; to be aware of oneself in one’s environment – to be present to one’s life. The nature of the key, the color or shape of the key, is secondary to the function. “Form follows Function.”

205. silentpurr - October 23, 2009

I have to say that Robert did like to have his way with the ladies now and then. He confessed his love to me one morning standing with me in a hotel room overlooking a beautiful garden. “You do know that this one loves you . He took me gently by the hand and invited me to lunch with him. After that he took me to an interesting part of London; The booksellers district. He show me wonderful bejeweled, leather bound books and selected the one he thought would be perfect for me TO BUY for the new library. Why, what were you thinking? With the girls it was always about money!

206. Tatyana - October 23, 2009

“You do know that this one loves you. He took me gently by the hand and invited me to lunch with him. After that he took me to an interesting part of London; The booksellers district. He show me wonderful bejeweled, leather bound books and selected the one he thought would be perfect for me TO BUY for the new library.”

Ahhhh…. how romantic!

…and to me he send his Russian boy at the reception to tell that I look very beautiful in my blue dress ( I was not in the inner circle and didn’t have much money). Conscious Love?

207. X-ray - October 23, 2009

Daily Cardiac, you are seriously fucked.

208. harryhindsight - October 23, 2009

Daily Junkfoodsnack,

“The Keys are merely symbols; not unlike a green light. If someone driving sees a green light as they approach an intersection they do not have to think about it, or interpret it. They know it means to continue on.”

You’re confusing symbols with signs. An understandable mistake given that you have all the mental acuity of a crate of dead fish

Symbols are fluid, signs are static. You are saying that the keys are signs which is definitely true IMO but seems unlikely, given your zealotry to be what you meant?

Harry.

209. Daily Cardiac - October 23, 2009

ton – 203:

“you live in a state wherein you believe ‘consciousness’ is conditional and based solely on the judgments of and dependent upon ‘dispensation’ by your ‘teacher’ — it’s tragic/comedy…”

I live in a state where consciousness is conditional and based solely on the efforts the individual makes to invoke it. But in order for you to grasp what is being said you would first need to stop projecting your notion of my reality or motives onto me.

“hey dc, you point out the differences between us… yes, that’s a good sign, very good, you noticed that there are differences…. but you are mistaken, i too write from my experiences and i never once called you a liar here. i have commented and will continue to comment on your delusional thought processes and the depth of your ’sleep.’”

You say you haven’t once called me a liar but you steadfastly refuse to take my words at face value and insist on telling me what you think my reality consists of when you have no way of really knowing. What’s the difference between that and calling me a liar? (and by the way, I never said you were not writing from your own experiences. If I did I would be a hypocrite.)

I could write the exact same words and in some cases I could be lying or completely truthful and they would all read the same. In other cases if I were not telling the truth I could not write what I write. Some truths cannot be invented but only experienced. However all manner of falsehoods can be invented.

In any event you have the right to say I believe you or I do not believe you. But when you veer into the area of changing the meanings of the words I write to make them suit your truth you also veer away from reason and any reasonable individual who is following along and who does not have an agenda similar to yours will catch your error.

Now it’s possible you don’t want my words to be true because they run counter to your stated truth. While not admirable that would be understandable, and quite human.

If my logic is flawed by all means expose that. Show me how what I say about RB or FoF can’t be so. And if lacking the ability to do that then at least admit you are not in the position of knowing the whole truth, and feel content in the fact that by making that admission you have not completely abandoned reason.

But to disprove anything I say you need more ammo than the fact that you don’t approve of RB’s lifestyle or spending habits. That doesn’t diminish the spiritual acumen of either him or FoF one bit, and recorded history bears that out.

You simply call me delusional or refer to “the depth of your ’sleep.’” which is not addressing an issue at all, it’s just calling names, which is a common ploy and smokescreen on the blog.

I’ve addressed several issues to the blog and given my interpretation of why certain situations are as they are. I don’t see that in your responses. To engage in a true discussion of the issues you would first need to dismiss the notion in yourself that someone’s position is flawed merely because they support something or someone that you oppose. That’s a given between members and ex members, but it’s not a valid argument or position.

It only proves that someone does not share your beliefs, understandings or attitudes.

210. harryhindsight - October 23, 2009

Daily Heartattack

“I could write the exact same words and in some cases I could be lying or completely truthful and they would all read the same. In other cases if I were not telling the truth I could not write what I write.”

I believe you left out;

while in others if I were not lying I could not write what I write.

sorry to be picky,
Harry.

211. dragon - October 23, 2009

Heretical thoughts:

Neither exegesis nor eisegesis it.
Is it dancing around the golden calf?

A perpetual tribute to the ideas of Robert and the FOF?

And is the blog with his mutual canto, on the one hand DC and his friends
and on the other hand his former friends and Ex-members, not
a daily homage to Robert E. Burton and his life’s work?

212. Yesri Baba - October 23, 2009

“That doesn’t diminish the spiritual acumen of either him or FoF one bit….”

That would be purta near impossible.

Congrats DC you have evolved to the level of man #
born again christian teenager.

213. Ellen - October 23, 2009

Hi All,

This week’s translation has been already useful to a number of former members, so I thought to post a portion of the article here. It derives from an InZicht magazine interview with Douwe Tiemersma. The full post can be read here:

Are there any dangers in the uncritical adoption of doctrines or practices from the East?

Of course, there are opportunities and dangers everywhere. The “uncritical adoption” means that there is no notion of what it is all about. If you take things in this way and make them your own, then you are stuck to the things. Particularly in the so called absence of grasping the basics, people can easily take things on in order to have a ground to stand upon, a life to live, a meaningfulness to overcome the futility. So people connect themselves to Eastern groups. So also, people repeat phrases from the advaita tradition. If it remains just that, then it’s essentially not different from a traditional religious situation, even if there is an awareness that it’s pleasant or blissful.

Sooner or later the critical consciousness will come into play, through experiencing the boundaries of the belief and behavior system. This means that questions are posed about the absoluteness of the limits and about what lies on the other side of the borders. This process continues until it is clear that no single form can provide stability. If this continues in a good way, the notion arises that there is a unity in the groundless openness without content and that everything is that.

Is the terminology of the fundamental unity of things independent of the distinction between East and West?

Words have a meaning in the extensive field of other words and meanings. This field is historically, socially and culturally conditioned. The words that are used to indicate something about the highest reality are taken from that field. Therefore part, in any case, of the terminology about the highest is different in different cultures. Atman and Brahman are Sanskrit words whose meaning has been consistently further developed throughout the history of India. The concept of God is constantly developed in the Jewish and Christian culture. Nevertheless, there is a level at which the culturally specific meanings are of less importance than the general human ones.

When it is about being-there, consciousness, bliss, about suffering and liberation from suffering, about limitations and the unlimited, about duality and non-duality, the expressible and the inexpressible, the stuck and the groundless, the closed and the open, there are no differences in the beliefs of people in any culture whatsoever.”

214. dragon - October 23, 2009

213. Ellen

“When it is about being-there, consciousness, bliss, about suffering and liberation from suffering, about limitations and the unlimited, about duality and non-duality, the expressible and the inexpressible, the stuck and the groundless, the closed and the open, there are no differences in the beliefs of people in any culture whatsoever.”

But there are differences in the way people REACT concerning religious tolerance/intolerance, concerning the colour of the skin or ethnic affiliation: native/coloured/white, Tibetan/Uigurian/Chinese, concerning looking on/being in the flow of life.

215. WhaleRider - October 23, 2009

daily cardiac:

If the shoe fits…

“A sophism is taken as a specious argument used for deceiving someone. It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the audience into agreeing, or it might appeal to the audience’s prejudices and emotions rather than logic, i.e. raising doubts towards the one asserting, rather than his assertion.

The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is. ((i.e Burton’s so -called “teaching” based upon quoting others and reading of “symbols”))

An Ad Hominem argument is an example of Sophistry.

A sophist is a user of sophisms, i.e., an insincere person trying to confuse or deceive people.

Sophists will try to persuade the audience while paying little attention to whether their argument is logical and factual.

Plato is largely responsible for the modern view of the “sophist” as a greedy instructor ((they were paid huge sums)) who uses rhetorical sleight-of-hand and ambiguities of language in order to deceive, or to support fallacious reasoning. In this view, the sophist is not concerned with truth and justice, but instead seeks power.

In some cases, there are original rhetorical works that are fortunately extant, allowing the author to be judged on his own terms. In most cases, however, knowledge of sophist thought comes from fragmentary quotations that lack context.

It seems that some of the sophists held a relativistic view on cognition and knowledge.

Common statements that might be considered relativistic include:

“That’s true for you but not for me.”
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”
“You can’t judge other cultures by the standards of your own.”

Some relativists claim that humans can understand and evaluate beliefs and behaviors only in terms of their historical or cultural context.

The term often refers to truth relativism, which is the doctrine that there are no absolute truths, i.e., that truth is always relative to some particular frame of reference, such as a language or a culture.”

From Wikipedia.

The fallacy in your lack of reasoning is that you need to adopt a relativistic point of view in order to defend your cult leader’s sophistry.

You base your argument upon giving Burton the benefit of doubt due to the fact that you fall prey to the irrational emotional trance state incited in you by his charisma and your projection of his divinity, despite the evidence of his greed, manipulation, exploitation, and corruption.

To maintain the cognitive dissonance of this doubt requires that you disable your conscience and operate upon faith alone.

While others here, such as myself, base our argument upon the certainity that Burton is a fraud, of which in my mind there is no doubt.

I am sure Charles Manson and Jim Jones had some interesting and provocative points of view, too, in the minds of their true believers.

If you want some insight into Burton’s or anyone’s sanity, listen to what they say about thier dissentors.

216. Kid Shelleen - October 23, 2009

Yesri:

“Congrats DC you have evolved to the level of man #
born again christian teenager.”

Pretty, pretty good (thank you Larry David)

Reminds me of the last time I tried to debate some zealot about this crap. It was 1977(!) and I stayed up ’til dawn in a dorm hallway trying to talk rationally about Jesus to a drummer friend who had come back from break “Born Again.” Same mindset, same arguments. As I pulled down the shade to try and get some sleep, I realized that I had wasted my time and I would never bother again, except of course when I’m in the mood for some wicked fun.

Oh, I just remembered something funny from that evening:

At one point, very late in the conversation, my friend said that I was speaking for the devil and testing his faith. Sound familiar?

217. Ellen - October 23, 2009

214, Dragon,
Sure, that’s the point. For example the Fellowship convinces its members that it is the only organization on the planet persuing such lofty practices as “being-there, consciousness, bliss, suffering and liberation from suffering, etc…”, instead of realizing such energies to be the ground of existence. Robert drew a net around the experiences and made it extremely dualistic, judgemental and limiting. And this is not uncommon.

Every group (spiritual, political or racial) that forms an identity of itself necessarily creates its opposite. The stronger the identity, the stronger the opposition. So then it is no longer about the rest of the picture, “limitations and the unlimited, about duality and non-duality, the expressible and the inexpressible, the stuck and the groundless, the closed and the open”.

218. surelyujest - October 23, 2009

200 James Mclemore

“As I said before, your posts sometimes take on an almost dream-like quality. They, at least in part, do not sound like they come from the human mind at times, but from something robotic.”

Be careful, DC may take your accurate critique as a compliment.

I am reminded of the part of “In Search of the Miraculous” where the two students leave Gurdjieff. They voiced their many objections to the system and to G personally, much to O’s horror. One of the criticisms was that the followers sounded “mechanical.” So O and his fellow members shook their heads at the poor lost lambs. In fact, those two former members laid out a nicely accurate critique of G’s little cult — one that would take O himself nearly all his life to admit to publicly.

For all of the 4th Way adherents’ talk about ‘chief feature’ and struggling with weakness, one of the most striking aspects of indoctrinated followers is their complete helplessness in the face of their worst tendencies. Robert is a sex addict. It’s simple, and plain to anyone who can see him without the overlay of worshipful nonsense. Alex Horn, whatever his other deficiencies, called him out on that in the 1960s for gods sake — that’s how obvious it is. Instead of trying to control himself, Robert has built an entire organization built to service that uncontrolled need, and a little army of indoctrinated members who happily justify his weakness with all kinds of fancy rationalizations.

DC, I would recommend that you read “The Guru Papers,” if you can bring yourself to. The shock of recognition as you discover that the FOF is, not just a cult, but a run-of-the-mill cult, will likely overwhelm you. You will see yourself described as well — you will find yourself all but quoted in the section of indoctrinated members justifying the weaknesses of the leader by saying that ordinary morality just doesn’t apply.

Even our own banished Greg reveals a similar tendency as Robert, though on a less grandiose scale and with a different deficiency. His weakness is his inability to get along with others. Instead of working on that, he glorifies it, proclaims that it’s actually not a weakness at all — it represents progress at not being duped by The Man’s bogus societal boundaries, which is really just prison, man! Not seeing that he is stuck at the emotional level of a 14-year-old boy rebelling against his parents and teachers. Unlike Robert who has built an organization to feed his weakness, the nature of Greg’s is a bit self-defeating in this way — you can’t attract members to support your habit when you drive them away almost immediately! No, he’ll have to continue to wage his war against polite society from behind his keyboard, where it’s easy to lash out when you don’t have to look the other person in the face — the 4th Way equivalent of the 82nd Chairborne.

Whether it’s DC, Robert, or Greg, to speak about consciousness as though it can exist in a vacuum, apart from human attributes, shows a profound lack of understanding about just about everything. Human things do matter. Feelings, sensations, interactions between others — to think that consciousness can exclude these essential parts of life shows the dream-like nature of what is primarily an illusory pursuit of consciousness. To see that people screw these things up all the time — that they are spiteful, nasty, and mean at times — does not discount the need to aspire to something better in the human realm. This kind of black and white rejection is somewhat…formatory, wouldn’t you say? I would say also that it is the predictable outcome from people who have been deeply hurt by others. If one has been betrayed like this at a young age, then discovering a system that seems to explain their actions and at the same time rejects people whole-cloth — you can see how that system would be very attractive as a defining ideology. It’s sad to me though — instead of seeking healing, it institutionalizes the hurt, which allows one to keep rejecting others while putting oneself on the pedestal that no one else would. In Robert’s case, he was so good at that that he made it attractive for others to do that as well.

All of these people could be helped very much by traditional therapists, if they could find a sympathetic, understanding doctor. Unfortunately, their ideology has a built-in rejection mechanism for this kind of help as well.

Good luck.

219. brucelevy - October 23, 2009

220. Walter Tanner - October 23, 2009

Why can’t you guys stop picking on DC? He’s been absolutely clear and forthright:

Whereas all of you blog-folks are empowered spiritually inquisitive beings, he wants to be the submissive acolyte of a world-historical conscious being, getting drips and drabs of presence as it comes his way through the grace of his homo-messiah.

DC wants it, Robert delivers it. Yeah, yeah, the immorality, the pain and cruelty that is the by-product of his Master’s desires and dogmas, but fuck! He’s no worse than any catholic (at least REB don’t mo-lest the chil’run).

Or, to put this all another way: Don’t feed the trolls.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

221. Daily Cardiac - October 23, 2009

208 – Harryhindsight:

DC – “The Keys are merely symbols; not unlike a green light. If someone driving sees a green light as they approach an intersection they do not have to think about it, or interpret it. They know it means to continue on.”

Harry – “You’re confusing symbols with signs. An understandable mistake given that you have all the mental acuity of a crate of dead fish.”

Definition of symbol:

“A symbol is something such as an object, picture, written word, sound, or particular mark that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention. For example, a red octagon may stand for “STOP”.”

222. nige - October 23, 2009

221 Daily Cardiac

All this posting is making you lose the plot…..Nigel.

223. harryhindsight - October 23, 2009

Daily almanac

“If an expression stands for a known thing, even if this expression is commonly called, ‘symbolic’, it is not a symbol but a sign. If an expression stands for an unknown something, which, therefore, by definition cannot be expressed or represented more clearly in an way, then such an expression is a symbol”

D.C. try and get the point that when conscious Bob tells you that a given image means a given thing, that it is only a game of signs, not symbols. It has nothing to do with higher centres and the fluid language of symbol. It’s just ‘ol Bob’s formatory apparatus having a deluded lark and yours doing the same.

Harry

224. Jomo Piñata - October 23, 2009

Lacuna Piñata, I ask you: All this keying–is it exegesis or eisegesis?

225. Daily Cardiac - October 23, 2009

196 – Voloneska:

“DC first love experience not so different from my own.”

I hope yours was as good; I was thirteen and she was fourteen. We entered a state of bliss and did not exit for two years.

Eventually I felt the call to “hang out with the boys” which was necessary but not what I would call blissful.

“DC FOF experience also not so different from my own.”

Well you left and I stayed, so while I’m sure there was common ground there must have been differences as well.

It’s hard to focus on a theme from what you write as you cover a lot of ground.

One theme I pick up on is you seem to come back to the idea that consciousness as promoted in the FoF has something to do with power or control. As I understand it and live it in the FoF consciousness has to more to do with letting go of mechanical power and control and making the choice to control the only thing really in our control, that is, our inner world. A spiritual warrior has no interest in conquering outside armies, but his or her own armies of thoughts, to paraphrase a well known axiom.

“Maybe DC you need try experiment for finding out what ex FOF people thinking is. Try to neither accept or deny Burton and FOF fraud, only keep in mind.”

One idea that is difficult for some ex members to understand is the idea that those who embrace the school ultimately have made the some journey as those who left. They have experienced the same I’s as those who have left but have seen them as insubstantial and have found better and more substantial reasons to stay.

Most ex members like to point out that people who stay are laggards and just have not arrived at the point where they will see it is best to leave. They do not consider the fact that those who stay get to the same place as those who leave and see staying as the only real meaningful choice.

You have made your choice and I have made mine; we both made the choice from a place of free will, which all men possess. So there exists a supreme justice in our design.

Enjoy your trip.

226. Jomo Piñata - October 23, 2009

Lacuna Piñata, I ask you: All this keying–is it exegesis or eisegesis?

227. Daily Cardiac - October 23, 2009

Jomo – 224:

See 204

228. Jomo Piñata - October 23, 2009

Lacuna Piñata, I’ve looked back at 204. Thank you for steering me back there. You talk around the subject, but you don’t answer the question.

I didn’t ask about symbols. I asked about whether the activity of keying was exegesis or eisegesis. Maybe you can bridge the gap of my understanding between your talk about symbols and my question about exegesis and eisegesis. I’m listening, I really am.

229. Opus 111 - October 23, 2009

If my logic is flawed by all means expose that. Show me how what I say about RB or FoF can’t be so.

Yes your logic is flawed. The problem with your argument is that most of its premises are not falsiable, they cannot be proven to be false.

For instance:
1. Robert Burton is a conscious being.
2. FOF is a conscious school
3. Higher forces work with FOF and its paying members.

These premises are articles of faith, they do not answer to recognized metrics. They are not falsiable. If you think otherwise, give me examples where proposition 1, 2 or 3 would be “proven” (I word you seem to cherish) to be false.

Your personal “logic” is to take these articles to be true and to infer that you will get what you look for: it is only a matter of time and right effort. Your reasoning is conventional but your logic is flawed.

Many of us have been through the same situation and while our reasoning may have been similar to yours, at some point we considered the premises more carefully and came to different conclusions.

As Ames has pointed out many times, look at the man (REB), his organization and its fruit.

230. nige - October 23, 2009

2-25 (to full understanding, by my number symbolism) Daily Cardiac…..

I thought you may appreciate and, perhaps, try to understand that staying in the fellowship, although, you might state it, is a matter of free will just as much as leaving, those who have left have done so by seeing the dangers of remaining would have been damaging to their psychological, emotional and moral lives (not to mention the absurd physical efforts to be made!). You do not seem to see (due to the ‘clouds of delusion’) that the Fellowship of Friends was and is a HUGE FRAUD WHERE CONSCIOUSNESS AND HIGHER CENTRES CANNOT BE REACHED (I do not include here, for obvious reasons, higher states which the FOF ‘tickles into being’ through la-di-da ceremony and classical music, art and attire – “These things all the world seeks. Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and its glory and all these things will be added unto thee” [Jesus Christ]). There is a saying, which is almost international – “you only get out of life what you put in”. The Fellowship, from REB, through GH and other minions down to the ‘outer circle’ are ALL TAKERS, WHO WILL, AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE, HAVE TO MAKE THE SAME PAYMENT AS ANY OTHER HUMAN IN LIFE – “Ignorant man! Do you not know that this night, your soul is required of you?”. Kindly listen to some pertinent words from Elena’s blog…..Nigel.

“To empower one’s self enough and be able to act publicly against such harmful institutions is an expression of responsibility for one’s own mistakes in having strengthened such cults with ones money and participation and the mistakes so many inside continue to commit against their own well being. Letting people continue down a fatal road is no act of consciousness or love or human integrity. It is a laissez faire attitude that reveals the same carelessness that Robert indoctrinated members to have towards each other and each other’s lives.”

231. silentpurr - October 23, 2009

232. silentpurr - October 23, 2009

We are not alone!

233. Ames Gilbert - October 23, 2009

Dragon (#84-214),
Why is that are those heretical thoughts? Those are fair questions, worth thinking about.
I wouldn’t recognize my contributions as ‘respectful deference’ to Burton or anything like it! Did you mean that keeping the FoF and Burton in one’s awareness to one degree or another empowers them? Or did you mean that it is harmful to bloggers to spend so much of their time on the subject? Maybe. If so, what do you consider to be too much? And yet… I believe the blog has had a practical, significant effect by reducing the numbers of followers and potential joiners, particularly in the U.S., where most of the money to support Burton comes from. That reduces the influence of the FoF and the harm that Burton can do in a very practical way, IMO.

It has been claimed that very ‘advanced’ people (like JC) postulated that one could in theory avoid evil by excluding evil from one’s consciousness entirely (‘resist ye not evil’). For the rest of us mere mortals, the exercise of trying to exclude something mentally usually ends up strengthening it, or at least drawing more attention and energy to it. Don’t think of the elephant in the room!

Hey Voloneska,
Thank you very much for all your valuable and thought-provoking observations. If you don’t return to the blog, they will remain on the record and will be useful to unknown readers in the future. But, I hope you do return, refreshed from your trip and with new insights!
Have an enjoyable and safe journey.

Thank you also Surelujest and James Mclemore, you’ve given me lots of food for thought.
==================================
It turns out #179 was indeed by Greg. I dug around and found it on one of his websites.

234. silentpurr - October 23, 2009

I mean, there are plenty of people who believe that they possess the TRUTH. This deluded fellow has 4424 subscribers on YouTube.

235. ton - October 24, 2009

dc 209

yes, yes, round and round we go… which are you, kettle? or pot… i’ll take the pot. look, this is a waste of time, but out of the goodness of my heart and because from my vantage point i see things you cannot… and because you’re obviously in need, i will entertain this for now… but not without repeating that your continued persistence here is all about supporting and inflating your own self-deceptions.

your words are true for you, so what? what does that mean to me? as for taking your words at ‘face value’ — call me cynical but i’ve learned in life to read between the lines… there are layers upon layers of meaning to consider and words in your case say very little to me…. why? mostly because you have a degree of fluency and the ability to rationalize your belief system and this is all the more reason to look at what lies behind the words you type… there’s more to understanding than accepting words at face value and based on your ramblings here and the fact that i’ve ‘been there done that’ (the fof cult thing… yes i was once upon a time also blinded by zealotry and delusion), i have a pretty good idea of what makes you tick, and that’s not calling you a liar.

you wrote: “I never said you were not writing from your own experiences. If I did I would be a hypocrite.”

and in your previous missive addressed to me you wrote:

“One of the real differences between what you write and what I write is this – I write from my own experiences about my own experiences.”

ok so you’re not a liar but by your own admission you’re a hypocrite…

here’s another good example of your convoluted and yes, delusional thought process (which you will not recognize… that’s the catch 22 with delusion):

“I could write the exact same words and in some cases I could be lying or completely truthful and they would all read the same. In other cases if I were not telling the truth I could not write what I write. Some truths cannot be invented but only experienced. However all manner of falsehoods can be invented.”

‘truth’ for me is very different than your version… but hey, to each their own. the issue i have with you is that you knowingly support the hasnamus your ‘teacher’ — i understand that love is blind and that’s part of your problem. you can go ahead and defend your position, rationalize and justify all the way to hell but i find no truth in your words only self-deception. you can be logical to a fault within a closed system but if the source and foundation of that system is based on falsehoods then your intricately constructed logic becomes a cage which keeps you from realizing anything beyond it’s confines…. you cannot see the false premises and this is your ‘truth.’

you write:
“But to disprove anything I say you need more ammo than the fact that you don’t approve of RB’s lifestyle or spending habits. That doesn’t diminish the spiritual acumen of either him or FoF one bit, and recorded history bears that out.”

this is another example of your delusional thinking… look, here’s a clue for you, i don’t have to ‘prove’ or ‘disprove’ anything… but obviously that is something that YOU think YOU need to do…. why is that dc? (the man doth protest too much). ‘spiritual acumen’ !? what a load of delusional bullshit… you are — as we used to say — in imagination. ‘recorded history’ !?! ‘bears’ what out? it sounds to me, as is the case with your beloved ‘teacher,’ that you’re suffering from delusions of grandeur.
here’s a tidbit from actual ‘recorded history’ (as opposed to imaginary) — at one time, not so long ago, people believed that the earth was at the center of the universe, intricate models were developed and constructed — ‘RATIONALLY’ — in order to explain how the sun, planets and stars revolved around the earth… it was an accepted ‘fact’ that the earth was at the center of all of creation (sounds a bit like your imagination of your exaulted teacher)… people were burned at the stake for statements contrary to the ‘facts’ the ‘truth.’

but there’s no way you could be wrong…. right? you with your hermetically sealed belief system in which you consider yourself to be above mere ‘life’ mortals… and one of the ironies of the situation is that this imagination is all based on a vicarious and as we’ve seen from your protestations here, all too precarious affiliation with that hack you call a ‘teacher’ — you are not above ‘life’ despite what you would like to think, in fact you’re stuck in mud, you belong to a garden-variety little cult, you tread the brackish backwater of your imagination and all the bullshit about the ‘specialness’ of your ‘teacher’ and yourself is more self-deception.

i’ll close with one more line from the pot to the kettle:
“Now it’s possible you don’t want my words to be true because they run counter to your stated truth. While not admirable that would be understandable, and quite human.”

run along and educate yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalomania

236. Daily Cardiac - October 24, 2009

Opus 111 – 229:

“Yes your logic is flawed. The problem with your argument is that most of its premises are not falsiable, they cannot be proven to be false.”

For instance:
1. Robert Burton is a conscious being.
2. FOF is a conscious school
3. Higher forces work with FOF and its paying members.

These premises are articles of faith, they do not answer to recognized metrics. They are not falsiable.”

Good point. I said long ago here that nothing said on the blog regarding spiritual truths can be either proved or disproved.

Spiritual truths are only verifiable on a personal level. How can spirit be proved in the world of matter? No one has successfully proved the existence of God or a soul or the afterlife, or disproved it. The same with conscious beings. As I’ve said numerous times I’m only relaying my personal experiences and understandings.

“Your personal “logic” is to take these articles to be true and to infer that you will get what you look for:”

My personal logic has been to verify and go from there. I don’t “take” anything to be true or false. But regarding the power to infer, it is one of man’s greatest gifts; it’s what separates us the other forms of life.

237. Jomo Piñata - October 24, 2009

Lacuna Piñata, I ask you, again: All this keying–is it exegesis or eisegesis?

238. Daily Cardiac - October 24, 2009

ton – 235:

“you wrote: “I never said you were not writing from your own experiences. If I did I would be a hypocrite.”

and in your previous missive addressed to me you wrote:

“One of the real differences between what you write and what I write is this – I write from my own experiences about my own experiences.”

ok so you’re not a liar but by your own admission you’re a hypocrite…”

What I meant was I don’t project my reality onto others in a discussion forum by “reading between the lines.” I address them on the basis of “face value”, the validity or non-validity of what they are actually saying. Your posts to me are filled with you telling me what my reality is like when it’s not possible for you to know that.

But for you to understand that you would have to see that you don’t know everything about FoF or RB.

“”the issue i have with you is that you knowingly support the hasnamus your ‘teacher’”

This statement at least comes close to touching an issue. It’s an opinion and one not shared by me but it does constitute an issue.

Jomo, 237:

All sacred or esoteric texts contain different levels, at least three – literal, analogous and symbolic. As I said earlier the keys represent a symbolic application, which I consider the highest level.

How or if that fits into your question is another matter. If exegesis is a “critical interpretation” of a text then that comes closer to a “key” but still misses the mark. I think “critical interpretations” would more closely apply to the analogous level. Symbols more often than not bypass words, hence also “critical interpretations.”

Eisegesis, as I understand the term, is a mis-representation of a particular meaning (who determines that is another issue entirely.)

I think you know my answer regarding whether that term applies to keys used in the FoF now.

239. Yesri Baba - October 24, 2009

“Your posts to me are filled with you telling me what my reality is like when it’s not possible for you to know that.”

Sure it is. It is right there in your words. Your reality is full of false premises and imaginary inferrences.

240. dragon - October 24, 2009

217. Ellen – October 23, 2009
“214, Dragon,
Sure, that’s the point. For example the Fellowship convinces its members that it is the only organization on the planet persuing such lofty practices as “being-there, consciousness, bliss, suffering and liberation from suffering, etc…”, instead of realizing such energies to be the ground of existence. Robert drew a net around the experiences and made it extremely dualistic, judgmental and limiting. And this is not uncommon.
Every group (spiritual, political or racial) that forms an identity of itself necessarily creates its opposite. The stronger the identity, the stronger the opposition. So then it is no longer about the rest of the picture, “limitations and the unlimited, about duality and non-duality, the expressible and the inexpressible, the stuck and the groundless, the closed and the open”.”

Ellen,

It is a remarkable point to analyze the moment that “made it happen” at the beginning of the membership/recruitment. There must have been a kind of bliss in every member/Ex-member of the FoF right in the beginning of the relationship with Robert’s FoF experiment.

And those emitting sparks how could they be so powerful and attract so many people, was it the exclusiveness, the secret, the feeling of being chosen, the access to knowledge outside the “trivial”, the emotionally charged background of learning and working together simultaneously embedded with a harsh self-castigation?

So far a mixture you can also find in monasteries but the difference is the threat:

If you leave you will be “dead for eternity” (it is not only the expulsion).

Another point is how could it happen that so many left the cult and what was their “tipping point” after so many years of the FoF retreat.

Was it, as you pointed out, the power of duality: the FoF identity/opposition, was it the Adam and Eve like understanding: Robert may be the serpent? Was it another spark, the spark of heresy living in every human being?

Thus it is only a matter of time until Robert’s experiment will find an end.

“Every group (spiritual, political or racial) that forms an identity of itself necessarily creates its opposite.”

If you take this group to an island it will have no outer opposition but as Robert knows the struggle is always inside (the group/the inner self) and could those group members be able to live in peace or will they breed opposition/destruction?

An interesting experiment (variations an this theme are still going on or are history) and why is Robert not willing (another heretical question) to find an island far away and to settle down with his members (some of them and Robert could be allowed to use a private plane and to hold contact with the so called “life people”).

Or why avoids Robert the public, he could get more exertion of influence (money/ members/etc. because 2012 is coming soon…, the “shift to another world”) something like the Raelian Movement:

http://rael.org/rael_content/intro.php?elan=English

The FoF, in my more than humble opinion, an experiment “refining” and misusing the fact of the inner struggle:

Duality/non-duality, inside/outside, friend/enemy is in our minds (we are still “very special animals” it is the evolution but sometimes we have the choice to escape from the butcher)
and as long as people like Robert play the instrument (the mind) of their followers, the FoF will exist.

241. Crouching Tiger - October 24, 2009

DC.

“Spiritual truths are only verifiable on a personal level. How can spirit be proved in the world of matter? No one has successfully proved the existence of God or a soul or the afterlife, or disproved it.”

This is a sad product of literal thinking. Spirit is always ‘proving’ itself in the world of Matter, if you care to look around. Whatever electrical force was stored within a Jesus, a Mohamed or a Buddha communicated itself effectively to others. Over a period of time, that communication became concrete and it became material, in the form of religions or religious groupings. Spirit and Matter are in a constant state of interaction – if we have to use those words at all…

The proving of Robert Burton’s spirit is also happening right now, and has been happening for the last 35 years or so, through the matter of the Fellowship of Friends. Its character as an organisation is shaped around his character as a man.

Your own spirit is also ‘proving’ itself in the matter of what you write here, and you are not as invisible to others as you imagine yourself to be.

You appear to lack any sense of relationship to the terms you use, and cannot see that opposites act through one another all the time. Look at a simple example like fire and water. If the two forces interact, either the fire is stronger and water evaporates as steam, or water is stronger and the fire is quenched, leaving warm water…Steam can power engines, while hot water can make nice cups of tea.

Do you think its any different in the relationship between consciousness and functions? Not at all. Consciousness can inform and educate functions, while functions [depending on their balance] always have the possibility to stabilise moments of consciousness.

242. dragon - October 24, 2009

233. Ames

Ames,

concerning DC’s way of arguing “pro FoF” it is difficult to recognize only a hint of doubt in his posts.

What makes DC’s brain so irresistible “strong” or one-sided fixated with doing again and again the same propaganda for Robert.
He had probably also to sacrifice his body to the “advanced”.

I think it is very harmful for bloggers (Ex-members) to face the past with all its facets.

Considering your arguments and all the posts of the FoF-blog, I ask myself often what else could be done to weaken the position of the FOF more.

If you are sure that the Blog reduces the number of Burton’s followers it is a success.

But there is not yet enough “light” on the dark intrigues” of that cult based on secrecy and it would be desirable to uncover it more maybe with another tactic.

243. ton - October 24, 2009

238 — hey dc, are you enjoying all the attention here? you just can’t get enough can you? you narcissist.

dc wrote:
“Your posts to me are filled with you telling me what my reality is like when it’s not possible for you to know that.”

to repeat yesri’s words:
“Sure it is. It is right there in your words. Your reality is full of false premises and imaginary inferrences.”

(repetition seems lost on you… is there anyway to get through to you? the question is how to get a glimmer of light past the obdurate walls you so carefully construct around yourself?)

dc wrote:
“Your posts to me are filled with you telling me what my reality is like when it’s not possible for you to know that. But for you to understand that you would have to see that you don’t know everything about FoF or RB.”

and so you do to me that which you are so opposed to in my posts to you… you are projecting dc… you haven’t a clue as to what i know or understand because your carefully placed resistances protect you from anything penetrating… why? because it threatens you and your world view.

get a clue dc, it is YOU who does not know everything about fof or rb and to say that about me is pure projection. i know and understand everything i need to know and understand about the fof and your beloved ‘teacher’ — from the inside out as it were… i learned and graduated from the fof… that’s why i am where i am and you are still stuck in the mud. i know i know, you’ll scream and cry that your little world won’t let you go… and yet to graduate you have to give up so much, that’s what you fear, it’s the loss of your carefully contrived world that you fear losing, it’s a type of death dc… it is not to be taken lightly, it is a move that not everyone can make, it takes courage and fortitude to go through it…. and even some ‘dumb-luck.’ but maybe you’ll just keep spinning your wheels there in kindergarten…. if you’re comfortable go ahead and sleep your life away, but don’t come here and laud the ‘spiritual acumen’ of that dirt-bag you call a ‘teacher’ i don’t think you’ll convince anyone here of the value or the ‘truth’ of that OPINION.

when i call a spade a spade… ”the issue i have with you is that you knowingly support the hasnamus your ‘teacher’”

dc wrote:
“This statement at least comes close to touching an issue. It’s an opinion and one not shared by me but it does constitute an issue.”

if you’ll permit me to interpret this by reading between the lines… now listen carefully dc and you might be able to learn something… you are trying to marginalize and exclude me with the above statement… this is something your fof training has made you an expert at… by deeming my statements to you ‘mere’ opinions, (as opposed to ‘the facts’ you suppose you deal in), the implication you make is that you imagine the nonsense you continue to post here is above and beyond the ‘mere opinion’ of the lowly rabble. oh, but that’s right, you imagine that you have access to ‘objectivity’ through your ‘teacher.’ you imagine that your OPINIONS here have more validity because of your ‘special’ connection to ‘THE truth.’ cut the bullshit dc, get off your high horse, you act as if the nonsense you spout here is something other than opinion, it’s not, it’s NOTHING BUT OPINION and as far as opinions go your judgment is pure unalloyed bullshit.

244. nige - October 24, 2009

242 dragon

There was a time, some pages back, when members were telling their ‘stories’. Now, we seem to have reverted to ‘subject thrashing’. Those stories were useful and seemed to have ‘made a decision’ for a few more ‘on the liners’ to leave the FOF…..

HOW ABOUT MORE STORIES?…..Nigel.

245. WhaleRider - October 24, 2009

daily cardiac:

Thank you for continuing to post.

you said: “All sacred or esoteric texts contain different levels, at least three – literal, analogous and symbolic. As I said earlier the keys represent a symbolic application, which I consider the highest level.”

The “guru” figurehead is analogous of what we already possess within our unconscious mind (he merely validates what we already know and is paid handsomely for it) and is symbolic of what are refuse to acknowledge about ourselves…our own profanity and divinity, existing side by side. The yin and the yang.

You have a literal guru.

246. veramente - October 24, 2009

Dragon, Nigel, you want stories…
We need fresh stories from the FOF Egyptian era perhaps?

I remember living in Apollo despising the Schubertiades (spelling?)
After a few years here is my reply to the FOF powdered faces:

sorry I do not have stories today…

247. nige - October 24, 2009

I thought a little uplifting and soul-nourishing passage would clear the ‘heavy air’ of current postings…..Nigel.

“Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is perennial as the grass.

Take kindly to the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.”

Max Ehrmann c.1920

248. Ames Gilbert - October 24, 2009

Dragon (# 84-242),
You say, “I think it is very harmful for bloggers (ex-members) to face the past with all its facets”.
Care to enlarge on this thought? What evidence do you have, anecdotal or otherwise, that this is so?

Speaking for myself, facing the past, trying to get to the truth of a situation, psychological or otherwise, has proved to be one of the major components of both of understanding and of healing. In fact, I can’t think how can one can navigate, know where and who one is right now, without some reference to the past.

249. dragon - October 24, 2009

248. Ames

Looking at the violence of the FoF (“mental” abuse: suffering until the total mental collapse happens and a few of the FoF members suffer from severe depressions ).

That’s what I mean with “harmful” and the blog could be a repetition or a déja vue of the mental misuse in the FoF for those persons. It could also trigger clinical depressions agein.

You may find different categories of people. Some of them are stable and endure the stress of the “cult canon” very well but the other categories, who is to know.

When individuals become aware of their condition (clinical depression), most can pinpoint an event responsible for their depression.
Most stimuli seem to have one of three features in common:

1. the loss of self determination (the ability to make choices)
2. the loss of empowerment (feeling you have power to make choices that make a difference)
3. the loss of self-confidence

Although depression can be treated very effectively, many people slip into this state without even realizing it, unaware that they are spiraling downward and are in need of help.
I think those are also in a greater number still in the FoF.

250. silentpurr - October 24, 2009

Daily Cardiac, I am wondering why you visit this blog? I myself do because I have an interest in spontaneous and honest dialog with people with whom I share an unusual history. When in the Fellowship, I valued and appreciated the efforts that ‘students’ made to stay. As the integrity of the ‘school’ began to fail, I am certain that the people most dedicated to TRUTH had no alternative but to leave. You will find many of them posting on this blog. I am sure that some would meet with you face to face if you needed. What is left of the Fellowship has the spiritual efficiency of a 1962 Lincoln Continental. No one wants it except the fearful ones. Get out while you can. We all did and survived the leap into the unknown. There is a net (network) here now.

251. Panoritsa - October 24, 2009

from a contemporary artist (Celia Paul):

“The only way you can tell the truth is by concentrating and not turning away from it.”

The “work language” and all justifications one is forced to invent in order to stay in the FOF is turning away from the truth of one’s life. It takes time and honesty to concentrate on what is there. After that, some people discover that enough is enough and it is time to become responsible about their lives and time.

Cults and charlatans will always be there…

252. dragon - October 24, 2009

250. silentpurr

Whatever DC goes through, if I were DC I would take your helping hand/paw.

But who knows what DC is realizing. He seems to be in the need of help but he seems also to be unaware of his situation.

253. dragon - October 24, 2009

246. veramente

for you:

that’s the best way to play the cello!!!

no stories tonight.

Have fun and gonna dance!

254. Yesri Baba - October 25, 2009

255. brucelevy - October 25, 2009

256. veramente - October 25, 2009

253
Thank you Dragon, I love dancing!

257. Yesri Baba - October 25, 2009

255 Brucelevy

fuck’n ay

258. dragon - October 25, 2009

254. + 255

Voll abgespaced yeah!!!

259. another name - October 25, 2009

If you leave a cult, and if you have this realization you are most likely dealing with PTSS.

Many students left and dealt with their minds with leaving. “I gained a lot and I met so many nice people” etc.

If you really realize where you were in you have to go through a deep well and healing is part of getting through it and move on. Yes you can bury yourself in a new cult/ project or move away. The healing part for me has been very powerful and I wish everybody this healing and become more free and more aware and in terms with each them selves.

I have spoken with many peope who left and there are many differences. Still the hurt and the pain is somewhere there.

If this blog contributes for students to leave. One of the students who admit itwas Jon ?, I am sure for others it was helpful. Some students go on it periodically and wonder why they can not verify that Robert is a sexual abuser? They maybe plan to go to more meetings and hope they will understand and make their own “verification”. I hope they will ask for a private conversation with Robert and ask questions. Although Robert will answer something like: “If it could be different it would or you do not have the level of being or it is all needed for higher forces…..

Not many new students are joing and many do not pay their teaching payments….? Tells you something!

Many of us where under the spell of meme’s, like” The Gods know what they do and suffering is what grows our soul and Robert is a conscious being, and it is only your instinct8ive center or your lower center etc.

Good luck to all of you and much healing and a wish for REAL MOMENTS for all of you.

260. nige - October 25, 2009

Overheard at an Apollo concert last night…..

GH: “What could possibly be a better impression than roses on a piano?
REB: “Tulips on an organ, dear”

261. X-ray - October 26, 2009

260. nige – October 25, 2009

Overheard at an Apollo concert last night…..

GH: “What could possibly be a better impression than roses on a piano?
REB: “Tulips on sex organ, dear”

262. nige - October 26, 2009

261 X-ray

I don’t get this…..why overstate the obvious?…..Nigel.

263. nige - October 26, 2009

fofblogmoderator

I hope I am not stepping over boundaries by this post which I have copied/pasted from Elena’s site. If you could give me some ‘guidance’ on the matter by emailing me…..nhprice@gmail.com…..thanks…..Nigel.

124 Elena

You wrote…..

“External reality is life! LIFE! Life is mother’s milk for the spirit! All of life with all its beauties and horrors and us standing like those children trying to do our best to help our selves.

When you allow the world, life, with each of its components to offer you their reality through your willingness to interact with them, you reconstruct your ‘I’ by feeding your spirit. When you allow movement to move with your body and love to impregnate your heart and the world of laws and processes to run through your mind and witness them all with the blessing of your presence, you enter a process of regeneration. It is not only a healing process; it is a conscious process. I think it is possible to develop this healing work methodically and even better, that knowing the principles, one can establish one’s own curriculum!”

As you know, I was stunned – positively! While having my bath early this morning (with some ‘muscle soak’ from the local supermarket – the logo on the bottle was – “for body and mind”) I tried to compose myself as to how to approach your ‘calling to the process of regeneration’…..

I took my art-form in when I joined the FOF and could bearly understand those (some of them artists in various disciplines – painters, musicians, actors etc.) who turned to computer programming or corporate recruitment to make their living in the Fellowship. I was still at college and received my Bachelor of Arts Degree in July 1979 (1 1/2 years after joining the FOF) which gave me the ‘right’ to be accepted for an H-1 workers visa in California. The ‘intermingling’ was well-set by this point and I had difficulty ‘non-identifying with Life’. I remember comments that sounded like, “It is so good to get back to the teaching-house where I can remember myself and truly be emotional!” It was during my last few months at Los Angeles that Walter Sheer asked me to design and fabricate the ceremonial vessels for the Fellowship and I felt honoured to do so, since it seemed a good ‘thank-you present’ to C-Influence for putting up with my, otherwise, waywardness. I think (according to Tatyana?) that the vessels are still used, unless Burton has dictated, “We would not want to use objects made by a dead machine who is going to the moon when he dies” (get the idea?). Despite all my financial difficulties, I worked tirelessly (I was not on tranquilisers at this point) in other peoples’ businesses (and extra hours in their workshops, besides) until opening my own business in Sausalito in March 1987 (you know most of the rest)…..

Some comments I received when pleading my case of poverty to the financial directors at Renaissance were…..

(JB): “I did not know you had put in so many (hundreds of) hours in the making of the ceremonial vessels. Next time concentrate on making money for the Fellowship.”

(FT): “(Pleading poverty) is the story of your life, Nigel.”

(D-KA): (to REB) “Is it not wonderful that B-Influence is funding C-Influence (with regard to the Papal Commission which grossed me $23,000)”.

I do not know why I ‘lost the plot’ for all the years in between returning from California until just recently; the only thing I can think is that it was to show me a ‘psychological journey’ through Life and to realise that my art-form was a Heavenly Gift (not to be taken lightly or as personal aggrandisement).

I feel real pity for those like Daily Cardiac, who are so limited in perception and ‘blinkered’ by REB’s so-called ‘teaching’ and who offer such shallow posts on the FOF Discussion Blog…..Nigel.

264. Lisa - October 26, 2009

*

Hello dear friends!

In 1984 I met two Fellowship of Friends students while waiting in line for a performance by the american cellist Lynn Harrell in Florence, Italy. They told me that they were visiting Florence and were from a ‘cultural institution’. Moments later one of them said that they ‘studied the work of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky,’ which struck a chord with me as I had read ‘Meetings with Remarkable Men’ and ‘In Search of the Miraculous’ as a teenager, and felt that they were extraordinary. As I was studying in a year long art history program, had the time, and was very intrigued by these somewhat mysterious people, I not only attended the prospective student meetings, but then became a member of the small center in Florence where the meetings were held in italian. Our work together was in intimate circumstances and I still value it to this day, even though 25 years have now passed.

After 6 months at the Florence center, my university fellowship ended and I returned to the United States. There I contacted the local center in Los Angeles. Things seemed quite different there. I missed the intimate european center. I was invited to visit what was then called “Renaissance”, to which I drove by car, with Margarite [formerly Olivia]. While there I was invited to meet Robert Burton and see his art collection as my ‘life’ work then involved classical painting. I remember being struck by his eyes, which were unusually large and with extra white showing beneath the irises.

The large, jovial man who led me in to Apollo pointed at futons on the floor and said with a smile, “That’s where ‘the boys’ sleep.” I remember some very handsome young men that were apparently part of this small harem. At the time my mind repressed the disconcerting impressions that this knowledge created. While at lunch at Renaissance I met a student whose ‘life’ work was at a major U.S. art museum. He said to me, Well, you know, The Fellowship of Friends gives people something to belong to.”

About one year after I first came into contact with “The School” as we called it, I was asked a question by a friend [whom I had told about “the Work”] that impressed me deeply. Although his question was very simple, it somehow affected me in a profound way, and I think it was one of the things that influenced my decision to depart from the Fellowship of Friends. Another influence, I must say, was the tuition! After hearing about the school, my friend asked me;

“Does the school encourage you to graduate?”

I have fond memories of Sara, Andrew, Ute, Geoffrey, Antonio, Randy, and others…I would like very much to hear from anyone formerly connected with the Florence Center.

Kind regards to all,

Lisa

…”and I still value it to this day, even though 25 years have now passed.”

*

265. Lisa - October 26, 2009

deleted at the author’s request

266. Panoritsa - October 26, 2009

If ones checks the “Fourth Way Info” on the net, one does not come across the Fellowship of Friends any more… In California you will find “Greater Fellowship”, in Europe “Pathway to Presence”, and I certainly do not feel like looking further…

Virus mutation?

267. Kid Shelleen - October 26, 2009

“We might be through with the past, but the past ain’t through with us.”

Jimmy Gator in Magnolia

268. Yesri Baba - October 26, 2009

265 Kid

“We might be through with the past, but the past ain’t through with us.”

Who was he talking about, the world?

(did you laugh your butt off watching Curb your Enthusiasm last night?)

269. Kid Shelleen - October 26, 2009

Yesri,

I think it’s his realization of the human condition. He’s dying of cancer and if I remember correctly, is actually quoting from a philosophy book he’s reading.

Don’t have cable in our part of the world. I wait for the DVDs.

270. arthur - October 26, 2009

Nige (263),

I remember Walter S.

271. Yesri Baba - October 27, 2009

267 Kid Shelleen

When this season’s DVD comes out don’t miss the ‘Bare Midriff’ episode. I was almost crying it was so funny.

272. Ill Never Tell - October 27, 2009

The Joy of Sect
Starring: The Simpsons
Time: 21:37 Size: 57.65Mb
English w/Russian voice over
http://rutube.ru/tracks/1986794.html?v=226b208c5a3616b7bc60094b82d5c33e
The English is hard to hear under the Russian but you can get the story – especially the Russians.
This segment has been suppressed in the west by property rights protection. Funny how that freedom of information has thing has changed!

273. Mikey - October 27, 2009

Watch out shippers! The French government charged the “Chruch of Scientology” with organized fraud. The court ruled that it was not a protected religious organization, but that it was a commericial organization designed to enrich its leadership. (or something like that; I heard it on BBC radio, so it must be true).

274. Associated Press - October 27, 2009

Church of Scientology convicted of fraud in France
Oct 27, 2009
By NICOLAS VAUX-MONTAGNY

PARIS (AP) – A Paris court convicted the Church of Scientology of fraud and fined it more than euro600,000 ($900,000) on Tuesday, but stopped short of banning the group’s activities.

The group’s French branch said it would appeal the verdict.

The court convicted the Church of Scientology’s French office, its library and six of its leaders of organized fraud. Investigators said the group pressured members into paying large sums of money for questionable financial gain and used “commercial harassment” against recruits.

The group was fined euro400,000 ($600,000) and the library euro200,000. Four of the leaders were given suspended sentences of between 10 months and two years. The other two were given fines of euro1,000 and euro2,000.

Prosecutors had urged that the group be disbanded in France and fined euro2 million. A law that was briefly on the books this year prevented the court from going so far as to disband the French branch of Scientology in Tuesday’s verdict – though it could have taken the lesser step of shutting down its operations.

However, the court did not do so, ruling that French Scientologists would have continued their activities anyway “outside any legal framework.”

A spokeswoman for the French branch of Scientology, Agnes Bron, said the verdict was “an Inquisition of modern times,” a reference to efforts to rout out heretics of the Roman Catholic Church in centuries past.

“It’s really all bark and no bite,” said the spokesman of the Church of Scientology International, Tommy Davis. “The church will emerge victorious on appeal.”

Speaking by telephone from New York, Davis said the Church of Scientology was prepared to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights.

The head of a French association that helps victims of sects called the verdict “intelligent.”

“Scientology can no longer hide behind freedom of conscience,” Catherine Picard said.

The Los Angeles-based Church of Scientology, founded in 1954 by the late science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, has been active for decades in Europe, but has struggled to gain status as a religion. It is considered a sect in France and has faced prosecution and difficulties in registering its activities in many countries.

Defense lawyer Patrick Maisonneuve said during the trial that neither the Church of Scientology nor the six leaders on trial had gained financially from the group’s practices.

The original complaint in the case dates back more than a decade, when a young woman said she took out loans and spent the equivalent of euro21,000 on books, courses and “purification packages” after being recruited in 1998. When she sought reimbursement and to leave the group, its leadership refused. She was among three eventual plaintiffs.

Olivier Morice, lawyer for civil parties in the case, said the verdict was “historic” because it was the first time in France that the Church of Scientology has been convicted of organized fraud.

Investigating Judge Jean-Christophe Hullin spent years examining the group’s activities, and in his indictment criticized what he called the Scientologists’ “obsession” with financial gain and practices he said were aimed at plunging members into a “state of subjection.”

The Church of Scientology teaches that technology can expand the mind and help solve problems. It claims 10 million members around the world, including celebrity devotees Tom Cruise and John Travolta.

Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the U.S. State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations.

Associated Press writer Elaine Ganley contributed to this report.

275. Lisa - October 27, 2009

Well, everything seems to be ok now. It appears that the problem may have been to do with my removing all the computer cookies, after I posted initially. I needed to “knock on the door of the site” quite a few times in order to be recognized!

* * *

To Be Sung Upon the Water by
Graf Leopold zu Stolberg (1750-1819)

Amid the shimmer of the mirroring waves
The rocking boat glides, swan-like;

On gently shimmering waves of joy
The soul, too, glides like a boat.

For from the sky the setting sun
Dances upon the waves around the boat.

Above the treetops of the western grove
The red glow beckons kindly to us;

Beneath the branches of the eastern grove
The reeds whisper in the red glow.

The soul breathes the joy of heaven,
The peace of the grove, in the reddening glow.

Alas, with dewy wings
Time vanishes from me on the rocking waves.

Tomorrow let time again vanish with shimmering wings,
I myself vanish from the flux of time.

* * *

Perhaps the possibility of soul immortality is not so important.
Instead, to just live here in the present, even to witness simple moments alone, see the gloriousness that is existence, even if it is for only a brief time.

276. nige - October 27, 2009

Are you listening Burton?…..

“The court ruled that it was not a protected religious organization, but that it was a commericial organization designed to enrich its leadership.”

277. Lisa - October 28, 2009

*

How do you find these lawsuits and rulings? I would like to look at them.

Doesn’t the Fellowship make enough money to sustain itself
through the winery?

Especially nowadays when paper has been dispensed with and information can pass freely on the internet.

It appears that the paintings I admired have mostly been sold, since their images are not reproduced on the site. I see mostly asian decorative arts. Perhaps the paintings were sold to settle abuse claims.

If Robert Burton could curtail his taste for material luxury, the Fellowship should be able to get along fine. There is so much beauty in the cultivated gardens and natural beauty around Oregon House.

The need to have fine dining, watches, clothing, is ridiculous. Remember the book, “The Picture of Dorian Gray”? It could be Robert Burton if he does not make amends to those he has gravely harmed.

I remember one justification for the payments was that the students would not value things that were given purely as a gift. I have noticed through out my life that people often do not cherish things that they do not pay for as much things that they pay for. There is some truth to that.

It is unfortunate, though, that so many sacrificed their health, building in harsh weather and with perhaps not quite the nutrition they needed, especially in the early years. Randy told me he suffered with the early construction demands on his body.

I surmise it would be hard not to be bitter about being brainwashed and seduced away from your wife or girlfriend. There must be a lot of pent up anger that really should be expressed in a private and safe atmosphere. My heart goes out to the students who experienced that betrayal of trust. I pray all will be healed.

I do not think that, if indeed a man No. 6 (or 7) exists, he would not harm his fellow man as these students have been degraded and despicably used.

*

278. dragon - October 28, 2009

Correct diagnosis but where is a court in the US?

279. nige - October 28, 2009

274 dragon

I am pretty damn sure that most US courts and, probably, most likely, every Californian court, lawyer and investigative authority go for safe bets where money is not spent too wastefully without good returns. I am only assuming here, but I am willing to bet that investigations and lawsuits against cults are ‘fringe options’ since there is the element that ‘a person cannot be seen to be manipulated’ if they have the opportunity to leave if they do not like what is going on. Even to ‘get things going’ against the FOF, we need a huge pile of money and the best legal clout we can muster. Barry Scheck (Simpson and Woodward trials) would be great but he has to want to do it although I am sure he has no qualms about ‘hogging the limelight’. I say we keep our ‘fingers on the pulse’ about this one, scroll back on the posts to find material (and especially the authorities that X-Ray and others posted) and just keep blasting at the walls of Jericho…..Nigel.

…..from Exeter High Street Pyramidial Sculpture…..

“On earth there’s a warrior of curious origin. He’s created, gleaming, by two dumb creatures for the benefit of men. Foe bears him against foe to inflict harm. Women often fetter him, strong as he is. If maidens and men care for him with due consideration and feed him frequently, he’ll faithfully obey them and serve them well. Men succour him for the warmth he offers in return; but this warrior will savage anyone who permits him to become too proud”

280. WhaleRider - October 28, 2009

Cult Banned from Island Nation

Nicosia- (URP!) Followers of The Phalluship of Penisology are undoubtedly scratching their private parts over a recent announcement by the Republic of Cyprus. The Phalluship, founded by a gay man named Robert Burton and known for its collection of 4400 Cypress trees rimming the cult’s headquarters in Yuba County, California, was banned on Monday from the tiny Mediterranean island, even though apparently the cult has no ‘divine presence’ there whatsoever.

One Cypriot official claimed that the action was taken because of the cult’s inherent misogyny and use of the 4400 cypress trees, which symbolize the number of blowjobs the cult leader has performed on his young male member’s members over the course of three decades of the cult’s existence, (give or take a few hundred) even though cypress trees are only loosely associated with the tiny island country’s name.

Cyprus was the mythical birthplace of the beauteous Aphrodite and Adonis, both of whom were historically deeply respectful of women and became lovers; the cult of Adonis was reserved for women only and Aphrodite’s cult included ritual prostitution.

“We don’t want any association whatsoever with that Northern Californian Gay Sex Cult”, said the official. “We believe it is a fraudulent organization designed to feed the sex addiction of its founder and enrich his enablers.” Asked about the source of the information, the official said, “Isn’t it obvious?”

As expected, the Phalluship remained wordless, refusing to comment.

281. fofblogmoderator - October 28, 2009

264 & 265 are new

282. fofblogmoderator - October 28, 2009

The following is a new post from Ames that was accidently deleted…..

“174 and others,
France has a law (1905) that ‘sort of’ separates church and state, but the state is still very involved in the church. Just one example, all buildings of all religions erected before 1905 are owned and maintained by the state; their use is free in perpetuity to the religion concerned as long as they continue to be used for worship. The state is free to determine what is a religion and what is not, and what constitutes religious conduct and what does not. That is why they have just finished this court case brought against Scientologists. England has a state religion, though it has laws that allow religious freedom. That does not stop the police monitoring Friday sermons at mosques, and prosecuting those that incite hate or violence.

None of this is possible in the U.S.A. The First Amendment absolutely prohibits mixing of church and state affairs. This means that anyone is free to describe their group as a religion, apply for tax exemption as such, and organize themselves in any way they like. The state takes extraordinary steps to allow the widest possible latitude for religious groups, and certainly there is no way to prescribe the behavior of leaders and participants of such groups.

This is why it is no easy matter to pass something like a ‘Brian’s Law’ in the U.S., just because a bunch of pissed-off people would like to do so. The state is forbidden from becoming involved in religious matters as such. This may be very hard for those readers from other countries to understand, but it is a fact. It works both ways. There are lots of religious people here in the States who would no doubt love for their particular religion to become the state religion, and who would love to have a theocracy, who hate what they perceive as a sinful secular society.

This does not mean that religions and clergy are free to do as they damn well please. Any law that is not specifically designed to focus on them or discriminate against them is valid (if it is constitutional), and they have to obey it as any other citizen or group does. But it does mean that trying to regulate the behavior of someone like Burton is extraordinarily difficult. It is not illegal to seduce young men above the age of consent with promises of this or that. It is not illegal to make sex part of a religious doctrine. It is not illegal to claim that having sex with Burton will advance the ‘evolution’ of a follower. But it is illegal for Burton to have sex with a minor, because that is a general law that applies to everyone and does not pick on Burton in his role as central pillar of the Fellowship of Friends.”

283. fofblogmoderator - October 28, 2009

275 & 277 are new

284. nige - October 29, 2009

282 fofblogmoderator and Ames

Thanks, Ames, for that clarification. This having been said, why was the Troy Buzbee case levelled at Burton and his enablers and why was it settled out of court for a specific sum? (Do any other bloggers know?) Does this mean that we are just going to have to wait for the FOF to’wind down’ and for Burton to abscond to a prepared retreat and negate any responsibility he has for the well-being of members? Are we able to prepare some sort of high-level case of public embarrassment against Burton and the FOF (reverse action of the First Amendment – Freedom of Speech)? Why was it that, supposedly, there was some sort of implication, in the Rajneesh Cult case, that he had been poisoned by Officers Representing the State to get rid of him and ‘his nasty crew’? Is there any possibility, at all, that Burton can be held ‘morally’ responsible for ‘psychological damage’ that is caused to the young men? Are they responsible, themselves, for anything that may happen to them? How much can action be brought, in other countries, against the ‘goings-on’ of the FOF? How much has Burton and the FOF ‘bent’ laws of other countries (or even US law) to enable young men to be brought into the United States to become the harem?…..

These are all only questions I ask, based on Ames’s post, and what, probably, other posters would want to get involved with. I dearly hope that we can bring strong and invigorating debate to this, and any relating, subject…..Nigel.

285. brucelevy - October 29, 2009

for DC

286. nige - October 29, 2009

“Hey – is there anybody out there?”

(Aim stated for the International Council of Community Chuches, of which the Fellowship of Friends is a member – God! What a lie for them)…..

“Reconciling the broken and dividing lines
among us into the larger circle of the
human family…

Intentional involvement in ecumenical and
interfaith dialogue prayer, and action in
local, national and international arenas…

Sharing God’s love in ministries of service
among the “least of these.””

287. nige - October 29, 2009

Aim stated for the Californian Council of Churches, of which the Fellowship of Friends is a member – God! What a lie for them…..

“Subject:
Glorious Day of Hope and Promise. Now – It’s Up to Us
Date: January 20, 2009

Dear Friends:

This morning we found hope. It is not the end of our hard work but the beginning.

If there has been any message from the campaign and this morning’s inaugural speech, it is that we need to be one nation, together. Our new President, Barak Hussein Obama said very truthfully two things that we must keep in focus:

Our best hope is to find ourselves in one another.

No one person, not this President nor any other person, can make the corrections in policy that we all desperately want to see happen. It is up to all of us.

We at California Council of Churches and California Council of Churches IMPACT take this as our clarion call. We must continue our work on behalf of change. It will be easier. But it will not be easy.

We also know that despite the energy, optimism, hope, and glory that has come from this historic election and inauguration that our own state of California remains mired in serious problems. We have created our own shackles in poorly constructed governmental limitations that have brought this state to the brink of disaster – one that may not be averted. We suffer from a partisan divide so enormous that it’s almost inconceivable. We have laws on vote requirements, term limits, and spending mandates – the “quick fixes” we hoped would make things better – that have made that divide all the worse.

People of faith are so important to the resolution of some of these problems. Your voices are singular in their powerful call for morality in policy coupled with the gentleness of our gift of humanity, equality, love, and understanding. It is we for whom care for the poor, justice, and right are central core values. Speaking that kind of truth to power is what you do best.

So with our nation moving forward, we still have work to do here at home. We ask your renewed commitment to speaking out for that which will confer the greatest justice for all people, no exceptions.

It’s what you have always done. It’s what we will help you continue to do. We cannot accomplish this work without you.

Blessings to you all in the work we have ahead.

Rev. Dr. Rick Schlosser
Executive Director

Elizabeth Sholes
Director of Public Policy”

288. Ames Gilbert - October 29, 2009

284,
The complaints against the FoF in the Troy Buzbee case have been posted in full several times over these pages (e.g pp. 13, 62, 70 and more). In summary, they are:
Case # 060209, April 29, 1996 in the County of Yuba. Complaint for Damages

1. Fraud

2. Intentional infliction of emotional distress

3. Negligent infliction of emotional distress

4. Breach of fiduciary duty

5. Negligent supervision

6. Sexual misconduct with a minor

7. Sexual harassment

8. Wrongful discharge

9. Negligence

10. Failure to pay minimum wage

11. Battery
Since the case was settled out of court, we will never know which of these charges might have been proved if the trial had gone to completion. I spoke with several ‘older students’, ‘ministers’ and authority figures just after the scandal broke. They told me that ‘everyone knew’ (though I didn’t) that Burton was having sex with Troy, and one also admitted that she (a Renaissance center director at the time) knew he was underage when the relationship started. So my guess is that ‘sexual misconduct with a minor’ would have been a central point that the lawyers would have fought hard over. One has to assume that the FoF settled out of court because they maybe they had a weak defense, or it would have cost too much to defend, or the insurance demanded a settlement, or (your own guess here).

Why not Google the Rajneesh case(s) yourself? You’ll find he was accused of immigration crimes. And his organization was indicted for putting salmonella in the food served by restuarants in the local community of Antelope. Rajneesh himself ended his sojourn in the U.S. agreeing to leave in exchange for a suspended sentence. Nothing about the way he conducted his religion or his sex life.

As far as bringing cases in other countries, you are already in another country. Why don’t you research English law and the FoF and its doings in England yourself? Maybe you’ll find crimes that are recent enough, and you can have at it.

289. More history needed? - October 29, 2009

1570 members still in the fellowship of friends, including Robert Burton.

579 are mentioned of those students, as belonging to the Apollo center.

290. nige - October 29, 2009

This might work, or not?…..

October 2009

President Obama
The White House
Washington D.C.
United States of America

Dear President Obama

Although this letter may not seem to convey any desperate tone, there is a level of urgency which I would wish to have levelled to any attention you may bring to it.

From January 1978 to June 1989, I was involved, as a member, with an organisation known as The Fellowship of Friends Inc. (FOF), which disports itself as a Church under California State and US Law. This is both partly, and exactly, why attempts in the past to illuminate its immoral undertones and uncover its leader, Robert Earl Burton, as a homosexual, who uses the façade of the system known as the 4th Way, to prey on young men in his ‘flock’, whether by their willingness or not (as has been proven by several court cases, which were settled out-of-court for undisclosed sums) and generally causes psychological, monetary and physical pressure upon his members, with the help of an ‘inner circle’ of enablers, have met with difficulty.

Although, as you can see, from the above, I have been out of the FOF for a very long time, I am still troubled by the downward-spiral of behaviour, which has not seemed to show any let-up, of those in the cult, who would take advantage of the naïveté and willingness to please of most of its members. Personally, I had to undergo much aggrievement, for many years, and a great deal of psychiatric help, to find my place in the ‘human family’ (let alone, my own), having left the FOF. I subscribe to a blogsite, called the Fellowship of Friends Discussion, which seeks to talk about experiences in the cult, what people have found for themselves, spiritually, having left it, and generally to offer alternative ways to look at spiritual and humanitarian paths. One of the subjects often raised is why people (often young and impressionable) are drawn to these types of organisations, but that is a matter for some strong debate.

Perhaps you may be wondering why I have sought help on this matter from as high an influence as the President of the United States of America – a little comes from my experience in your country as both an employee in, and an owner of, small business; some comes from absorbing the spirit of America, as representative of the motto of my Scottish mother’s clan Wallace – Pro Libertate (for liberty); but maybe it is because I have seen something in your moves for new constitutional legislation that makes me think you may just be the man to take on this kind of ‘scourge on humanity’ (funnily enough, my first name derives from the Latin – ‘little black one’ and Price, my family name, has many derivatives – Reece, Rees, Rhys and Rice – was not Condoleezza a great secretary of State?)

I have included some literature pertinent to this subject which will fill you in on some background and would be happy to be contacted by anyone in the White House who has dealings in these sorts of matters.

Yours most sincerely…..

TO FOF LEADERS…..

THIS REMTTANCE GOES OUT UPS INTERNATIONAL DELIVERY 10/29/2009

(“Where you goin’?”…..”I’m goin’ ta pick a fight!” – ‘Braveheart’)

291. nige - October 29, 2009

Sorry FOFFERS!?!?!

Letter went out to White House site 2 minutes ago…..

QUICK AND THE DEAD, N’EST-CE PAS?

“Thank You!
Thank you for contacting the White House.

President Obama is committed to creating the most open and accessible administration in American history. That begins with taking comments and questions from you, the public, through our website.

Our office receives tens of thousands of messages from Americans each day. We do our best to reply to as many as we can, but please be aware that you may find more information and answers to your questions online.

We encourage you to visit WhiteHouse.gov regularly to follow news and updates, and to learn more about President Obama’s agenda for change.

For an easy-to-navigate source of information on Federal government services, please visit: http://www.USA.gov

Thank you again for your message.

The Office of Presidential Correspondence”

292. nige - October 29, 2009

From Obama’s speech on the Shephard/Byrd Law…..

“You understood that we must stand against crimes that are meant not only to break bones, but to break spirits — not only to inflict harm, but to instill fear. You understand that the rights afforded every citizen under our Constitution mean nothing if we do not protect those rights — both from unjust laws and violent acts. And you understand how necessary this law continues to be.”

293. Crouching Tiger - October 29, 2009

I came across the following passage from one of Gurdjieff’s early talks that seemed highly appropriate to the recent debate with DC. He is talking about the ‘unpardonable charlatanism’ of hoaxing gullible people for money by showing them ‘the way’. His capitals.

“Truth is often served up in such an indigestible and vague form that it produces on the newcomer the impression of a pathological delirium…. All these systems are extraordinarily alluring, maybe precisely because of their vagueness. They have a particular attraction for people only half-educated in positivist knowledge.

In view of the fact that most questions studied from the point-of-view of esoteric theories often go for their solutions beyond the limits of data accesible to positivist science, these theories often look down on it.

What is the point of going to university, if ‘esoteric’ learning enables one to look down on all other learning and pass judgment on scientific questions?

There is only one thing this learning does not give. IT DOES NOT GIVE OBJECTIVITY IN QUESTIONS OF KNOWLEDGE, LESS SO EVEN THAN POSITIVISM; AND THINKING SOUNDLY, AND LEADS THE PERSON TOWARDS PSYCHOPATHY.

Our thinking possesses the capacity to be convinced of anything you like, provided it is repeatedly influenced in the required direction. A thing that appears absurd to start with, will in the end be rationalised, provided it is repeated sufficiently often and with sufficient conviction. AND JUST AS ONE TYPE WILL REPEAT READY-MADE WORDS WHICH HAVE STUCK IN HIS MIND, A SECOND WILL FIND INTRICATE PROOFS AND PARADOXES TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE SAYS.

THEN THEY SUGGEST METHODS AND WAYS OF SELF-DEVELOPMENT WHICH LEAD TO A STATE IN WHICH THESE ASSERTIONS CAN BE VERIFIED – BUT CONSISTENT PRACTICE OF THESE HABITS LEADS THE SEEKER TO HIGHLY UNDESIRABLE RESULTS. The temptation to apply them on the one hand, and the insistence on the necessity of doing so, as well as the emphasis laid on the miraculous results and concealment of their dark sides, all this will lead a man to try them…

For every step he takes a man may, unknown to himself, suffer a twist, a dislocation in the machine, after which it would be necessary to spend a great deal more trouble on its repair than was spent on damaging it.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE MAN WHO SAYS THAT HIS BEHAVIOUR IS NOT UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THOSE AROUND HIM AS HE IS ON A MENTAL PLANE TO WHICH THE STANDARDS OF PHYSICAL LIFE CANNOT BE APPLIED? Actually, his behaviour should long ago been the subject of a psychiatrist’s study. This is a man who persistently ‘works on himself’ for hours daily – that is, he applies all his efforts to deepening and strengthening the psychological twist which is already so serious that I shall soon hear he is in a mental home.”

294. nige - October 29, 2009

293 Crouching Tiger

NOW WE REACH THE CORE!!!!!

“Mr Haven, please fetch Mr Burton his brown corduroy trousers”…..Nigel.

295. dragon - October 29, 2009

The ability to enter the supersensible worlds is INDISPENSABLE; but once they have been discovered and communicated, even ONE who does not PERCEIVE them himself can be adequately convinced of their truth.

A large proportion of them can be tested offhand, simply by applying ordinary common sense in a genuinely unprejudiced way.”
“Not the mind alone but healthy feeling as well is qualified to determine what is true.”
“There are many more ways of confirming this knowledge . . . Not everyone can immediately achieve spiritual vision; but the DISCOVERIES of those WHO HAVE IT can be health-giving life-nourishment for all.”

from: Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment,

That’s the way it goes again and again, for adepts and members of the FoF and other human beings searching for the “higher sense of life”.

Robert et al. life-nourishment for ALL!

DC, excuse me, is that a distortion of your way?

296. Wouldnt You Like To Know - October 29, 2009

280. WhaleRider:

‘As expected, the Phalluship remained wordless, refusing to comment.’

It is very hard, with a penis in the mouth, to speak much at all.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Ames [copied to 282]:

‘Any law that is not specifically designed to focus on them or discriminate against them is valid (if it is constitutional), and they have to obey it as any other citizen or group does.’

Laws concerning fraud and violations of IRS, INS, or California State corporate law, fall into just such an area.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

BTW, I hear that FoF will go into the marijuana growing business as soon as California legalizes and taxes its production, sale and/or use. It fits well with the mostly defunct vineyard.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

BTW, Lisa, Renaissance Vineyard and Winery (RVW) seldom, if ever, made a profit; as wholly owned subsidiary of Fellowship of Friends (FoF). You might say that it sucked at the Fellowship of Friends (for money, labour, etc.) in a similar manner as The Teacher sucks at the members. In short, it justified having winery donations. Winery, as initially designed and subsequently redesigned, has never really been completed to those lofty plans – it may even be partly dismantled. That, truly is an example of fraud. Later those donations were renamed Spring and Fall donations because, likely, the money really did not go to the purpose that it was so designated to go to – possible fraud liability. RVW is now just a shadow of its former self and the dream envisioned by Karl Werner, the founding winemaster, may his soul rest in peace, has mostly evaporated.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

284. nige:

There are likely many other possible criminal and/or civil lawsuits that could be brought against FoF, REB, and the minions of flying monkeys, but would prosecutors or lawyers want to undertake it? What clients are there? Are they and their case(s) worth representation and what would it take to win? Additionally, if FoF is likely to lose, their insurance company (if they still have one and/or can afford the policy costs), covering such action(s), will insist on settlement, out-of-court, to cut the loses. That is probably what happened in the multi-million dollar settlement of the Troy case. But, meanwhile, things could get very, very, ugly for people so involved. AG has a reputation of being a very aggressive attorney that has used ‘all and everything’ to intimidate opponents. (Others have written here about that.) If he doesn’t do that directly himself, people can be hired who would do it. You can be sure that that ugliness would happen whether or not AG was attorney representing FoF, et al. REB stated about one Fellowship legal action, ‘Go for the jugular.’ And that was a very mild case.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Ames, supposedly, in the Rajneesh situation, according to a documentary about terrorism acts on American soil, appearing on PBS, the man, himself, was innocent of the egregious acts perpetrated by his minions of flying monkeys. But then there are scapegoats. The bad actors seemed to escape, so someone had to be punished. Banished from the land and, supposedly, later, poisoned to death. (Does REB have the chef publicly taste the dishes that are prepared before him to insure that they are safe to eat?)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

289. More history needed?

‘1570 members still in the fellowship of friends, including Robert Burton.

579 are mentioned of those students, as belonging to the Apollo center.’

Once there were approximately 2200-2300 members with 800+ in Oregon House.

297. Kid Shelleen - October 29, 2009

Dear Crouching Tiger,

Re: post 293, Early G. Talk

I guarantee you that Gurdjieff never stood before a group of people and spoke those words. He may have stumbled through some broken English equivalent of those sentiments (maybe), but that written passage you sited was obviously someone doing exactly what Joel F and others did for the FoF journals. Why should anyone believe the one and dismiss the other? It’s the same “cleansing” and “putting right of history”, is it not (which is something Rodney Collin approved of, if I recall correctly)? And, is he saying anything other than “My Way’s the right way?” This was one of my major beefs with the so-called esoteric knowledge of the 4th way: the unreliable narrator. Of course, now my inclination is that we are all unreliable narrators, stumbling through our own stories, making it up as we go along.

I still have a certain sympathy for Ouspensky, though. He did write a ripping good adventure tale for the spiritually inclined.

298. surelyujest - October 29, 2009

293 Crouching Tiger

“WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE MAN WHO SAYS THAT HIS BEHAVIOUR IS NOT UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THOSE AROUND HIM AS HE IS ON A MENTAL PLANE TO WHICH THE STANDARDS OF PHYSICAL LIFE CANNOT BE APPLIED? Actually, his behaviour should long ago been the subject of a psychiatrist’s study. This is a man who persistently ‘works on himself’ for hours daily – that is, he applies all his efforts to deepening and strengthening the psychological twist which is already so serious that I shall soon hear he is in a mental home.”

HA HA HA!

So, DC, you have claimed that Burton’s behavior “IS NOT UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THOSE AROUND HIM AS HE IS ON A MENTAL PLANE TO WHICH THE STANDARDS OF PHYSICAL LIFE CANNOT BE APPLIED.” You used very nearly the same words. What think you now?

In fact, that whole quote is some of the most sense Gurdjieff ever made. It’s too bad that he seemed to think the 4th Way was somehow in a different category. From what I’ve seen, those that apply it the most end up the most damaged. And like truly crazy people, they claim that their insanity is actually more sane! Sad…

299. Crouching Tiger - October 29, 2009

Kid Shelleen.

Well, we don’t know the real answer – it’s supposed to be an actual transcript however.

As far as historical cleansing goes, the kicking-off point might be to try and rescue Gurdjieff from the Fellowship twisting of him and his teaching, don’t ya think? When that has proceeded a little way along the line, you might be surprised with the Gurdjieff you find! And one element in that is certainly the amount of sheer common sense he applied to so-called esoteric teachings and teachers.

300. brucelevy - October 29, 2009

296. Wouldnt You Like To Know

“BTW, Lisa, Renaissance Vineyard and Winery (RVW) seldom, if ever, made a profit; as wholly owned subsidiary of Fellowship of Friends (FoF)”

…and that’s with free labor, or laborers that actually paid to work for free…for the higher good.

301. nige - October 29, 2009

295 dragon

To set straight Burton’s ridiculous phraseology and to make it possible for all to achieve…

“When you Truly achieve Divine Presence, you become Divinity; then the World, Life and the Universe speak to You of Right and Conscienable Action, WHICH YOU MUST UNDERTAKE.”

I.C.T. = Information (and) Communication Technology…..my secondary teaching subject ,taught in 1982

I dreamed you up; now have you dreamed me down (nhp 2009)

hint…..think about the meeting of Heaven and Earth in the Seal of Solomon.

302. fofblogmoderator - October 30, 2009

Sorry comments are closed for this entry

%d bloggers like this: