Fellowship Of Friends Discussion- Part 81 September 2, 2009
Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.trackback
Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.
For recent pages from the blog go here
For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.
The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.
To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org
For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.
To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html
For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.
This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.
If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.
And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.
At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.
Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).
To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/
Comments
Sorry comments are closed for this entry
Fellowship of Friends - Living Presence Discussion 
274. Tatyana
Thank you Tatyana!
Accept my gratitude, your posts come from the heart!
Dear Crouching Tiger
Is there anything that could be done for the girls and the women?
Re: the count of members of the Fellowship of Friends. According to the Propylia website today (Sept 1, 2009) is 1570. To settle the argument, someone had to grind through the member names and count every single one! It would take someone who knows every member to see if they are counting folks who have left, though. But they are counting bodies; in the Task Complete section––two deceased. The rest, by ‘center’:
Apollo 578. Milan 44. Kiev 39. Moscow 74. Minsk 18. Palo Alto 11. St Petersburg 62. Novosibirsk 10. Porto Alegre 5. Athens 24. Khabarovsk 6. Bucharest 14. Buenos Aires 23. Campinas 11, Beirut 22. North Germany 12. Ahmedabad 50. Ljubljana 20, Nijny Novgorod 13. Naples 12. Santiago 14. Tel Aviv 45. Sacramento 10. London 35. Brussels 7. Naples 12. Amsterdam 24. Vilnius 8. New York 14. Rome 18. Sao Paulo 22. Shanghai 20. Venice 9. Tijuana 23. Madrid 7. Paris 24. Rajkot 19. Atlanta 3. Istanbul 7. San Francisco 7. Florence 13. San Salvador 14. Bogota 7. Los Angeles 7. Monterrey 8. Toronto 6. Petrosavodsk 11. Washington, D.C. 10. Munich 3. Mexico City 41. Mumbai 10. Valencia 7. Vienna 7. Veracruz 9. Bogota 7. Prague 5. Beijing 3. Porto Alegre 5. Zurich 5. Copenhagen 5. Barnaul 8. Miscellaneous 31.
Hopefully that all adds up to 1570! Some previously unknown center may have slipped through. Someone else can do the analysis. How does this break down by continent? How is the population aging? Are some of the remaining richer, older Americans nearing retirement, and will their dues go down? And so on…
Sorry woman, Is she from India?
Another name.
I don’t know, but my understanding is that he was forced to leave CA and the US because he was a registered sex offender who hadn’t disclosed himself when moving to a new town (as required in the US)… Would that history be known and applied over here? I doubt there is anyone in the centre itself who would warn the lady in question, or even make her aware of that history.
Ames.
I’m still getting emails from the fellowship more than 2 years after leaving! There are others on the email panel I know have also left. If these are being counted, then it would suggest that the numbers are artificially inflated.
80-272. JonB
“I did not write many , I wrote “quite few”. There are other reasons why people stay.”
Actually you wrote: “There are quite a few that simply cannot leave because they are still tied in financially to the FOF or to the current FOf students clientele.” “Quite a few” usually implies many.
Maybe you were one of those “few”? The sooner you accept the possibly you are now being led by the instinctive needs of your cosmos and it’s basic fight for survival–much like the survivor of some disaster– the easier it will be to move on and get your life back in order outside FOF. Embrace the dreaded instinctive center and take care of your family. There is no shame in this when done with honor. Mysteriously this may open more doors to your soul than have been opened through the bogus”king of hearts” teachings of Burton.
6 Dr Pangloss
“The road to enlightenment is basically a human one.” (Gautama, the Buddha)
“Hey- who farted!?” (Yesri, the Baba)
Dr. Pangloss
You are right and I will try to act on your suggestions.
jb
Crouching Tiger,
Since I know that the information I provided is current, we could perform an experiment. I don’t know who you are, but if you trust me, you could e-mail me (nancyames (at) accessbee (dot) com and I have someone look at the list and see if you are on it.
Alternatively, you could mail me a letter, and protect yourself by asking if other names known to you are on the list. Obviously, you would sign the letter with a ‘handle’ that I can refer to, and you could even mail it from a different town. My address is: 14499 Lower Colfax Rd, Grass Valley, CA 95945
The final step is that I would reply here to the ‘handle’, stating whether the names were on the list or not.
Offer is open to all; the more names we check, the more we can gauge the reliability of the list. Again, the intent is to see if folks who have freed themselves within the last couple of years are still on the list.
10. Ames Gilbert – September 2, 2009
Good idea, Ames. Thank you very much.
Below is a posting that came today from Elena. Since it seems to address everyone here I thought I would post it.
I did say at the beginning of the last page that I thought it best if Elena sit out one page and yes, I did not give her a “warning”. I guess sometimes I don’t want to put in the time it might require to make a “fair call”.
I have not unlocked her entry back onto the blog. Although I have no problem doing that, I just wanted to hear some second opinions before I do.
Elena, sorry if I appear to be unfair here. It’s hard for me to be impartial,
———————————————————
““At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.”
I just read this passage for the first time yesterday and realized that you had the intention to warn people before banning them but you didn’t do that with me, which is what I’m asking you do here, not only with me who am tired enough but with everyone who walks away from the established rails.
I have not been idle while banned and am forwarding all the writings because I find it interesting to observe what is written in the different states and what is realized over time even though they are different aspects of the same thing and because everything in them still stands today.
If these are my last posts, if they have me banned again or make many of you leave, I am happy to live with their consequences. The problem is not the debts one incurs in one’s lifetime but one’s willingness to pay them. If these are my last posts, I thank you all for having given me the opportunity to state my truth here. I hope you continue to find yours every day of your lives.”
12 fofblogmoderator
I am not sure – are you asking for a concensus about Elena? If you are, I would suppose I should write about why I think she should be allowed ‘another try’. If, as she has written herself, she suffers from ‘bipolar’, I remember in earlier years of my own coming to terms with it, I put a paving slab through my parents’ back door window, took swings at policemen and male nurses and wrote insulting remarks on bank doors. I suppose that compares with Elena’s ‘rants’ and ‘vents’. Elena ‘defends her own corner’ adequately, but when one is posting, one has to be aware of the ‘game’. The blog is read internationally by a vast array of people and Elena needs to consider this before ‘lashing out’…..Nigel.
Dear Fofblogmoderator,
All I have to say is that it has been a blessed relief not to have Elena’s rantings, misunderstadings and attacks on this last page. She even went after Ames who has been a selfless defender and supporter. You could not find a more honorable person yet even he was fair game.
I don’t hink there was any need of a formal warning. She has been warned before by you and beseached by other bloggers to rein it in and it never works. I know she will attack me for this but I feel the need to express my concern that we will just have to go through the ugliness and hatefulness again after a few days of “good behavior”.
And as I have said many times before, my concern is for the effectiveness of the blog in showing current members and prospective joiners the truth about the Fellowship. When Elena begins her attacks it makes the blog and it’s participants look like loonies that no one would trouble to take seriously.
I think we need to maintain an atmosphere of sincerity, openness and respect while presenting our points of view and sharing our experiences. I believe Elena has great need of help for all her hurts and anger and my heart goes out to her at times for her suffering but her needs have too often taken over and diminished the potential that many here have worked to develop. Perhaps there could be another blog or venue for Elena and those who wish to engage with her.
So, in summary, I am voting not to admit her again.
12. fofblogmoderator
I don’t have any confidence that things would change. I think Elena said as much in her note to you in a round about way. She will always be the martyr and the victim, in her eyes, and all that goes with that..
Hello Steve,
If I’d known you weren’t going to keep your word about allowing me back in the post I wrote this morning I would have asked for my right to defend myself in relation to Old fof’s accusations and Ames who wrote after I was banned. Old fof’s was sent in almost at the same time I was banned.
If you’re going to trial me out, don’t you think I have a right to defend my self before you call in the judges?
13. Nige,
“The blog is read internationally by a vast array of people….”. That’s scary!
It seems that Elena once said that buddy Bobby (or was that buttie Bobby?) had her silenced for a spell. This silent treatment seems to be a continuation of that and for the same reasons.
However, I like Elena and Greg and Kiren and all the others who raised a hair, and even the “intellectual smart arses” that speak.
I cant touche with any of them personally–dont want to, but I can smell them out when I sniff the air. Being a Jack of Clubs and all.
Hi, Elena
I believe in social rehabilitation.
If it were up to me, I’d only ban someone temporarily
18. WhaleRider – September 3, 2009
I agree.
I would give her another chance but first a leave of absence.
I would prefer if Elena would desist for a page or two. It would give space for others to speak through the blog. It may take a page or two just to bring back those who have given up on the blog over the last ten pages or so.
fofblogmoderator – you said,
“I guess sometimes I don’t want to put in the time it might require to make a “fair call”. ”
If I was you I would not overly concern myself with that. You are doing a more than admirable job at something you do not get thanked for much. I would just call it like you see it and move on.
I have mixed feelings about the elena situation. I tend to side with whalerider and X-ray. I hate to see anyone banned permanently except when there is just no other choice as in the case of Greg and the ‘twinetime’ person. My confidence level for change, like Bruce’s, is not high, but I also sometimes buy a lottery ticket now and then. What seems most important is what vena pointed out – that an atmosphere of respect for each other is necessary for the overall health and effectiveness of this discussion. If you have a person who appears to have become self-convinced that they have some sort of emotional depth and maturity that everyone else lacks, then they will have difficulty with that respect issue. If you compare page 80 (which was imho, pretty potent from start to finish) to a large portion of page 79, it looks like two different blogs. There will have to be some changes on elena’s part if she is permitted to post again. If elena does return, I do think it needs to start fresh with whatever is happening then, and not post all at once a bunch of writings that are on hold from some past pages. I just do not think that would serve the blog well.
elena – I wish the best for you. Look for things that make you smile. There is no person and no event outside of ourselves that will bring about any real healing for any of us. Even the complete shutdown of the fof, while it might well bring a deep satisfaction and sense of relief for many, those feelings too would pass, and we would still be left with who we are.
Just to re-iterate James, if I may…..and I think this is important…..
There is no person and no event outside of ourselves that will bring about any real healing for any of us. Even the complete shutdown of the fof, while it might well bring a deep satisfaction and sense of relief for many, those feelings too would pass, and we would still be left with who we are.
I admire Elena’s spunk for standing up to the Fellowship. If I lived closer to Oregon House, I would be there beating a drum with her! Lets be tender with our wounds and remember that everyone’s voice is useful. Please, no permanent bans.
Are we going to do something about AL….? Can not believe that we are again talking about Elena. see the last 10 post. Can we do both…..?
How to warn the poor woman who has two daughtes and lives with A L in London?
Yes I unerstand the dilemma with Elena, I enjoy the debt in the subjects and not have to deal with Elena’s projections and pain.
On the other hand being banned is an unhealthy situation and creates hard feelings. Can we do linited posts and asking Elena to not attack and accuse? I love the energy at the blog now. Shoot now I am talking about Elena too.
Crouching Tiger anything we can do in London about AL?
Who is this AL?
Why can’t we spell full names of criminals and sexual offenders?
Will they sue us for who they are?
His wife needs to be informed by email or by phone.
I tend to agree with JamesM about elena. But if she were to be unbanned maybe the debanning should be inclusive – to twine and greg too.
The thing is, moderator, that it is up to you to truly define your job as moderator. Do you see your job as someone who is democratic, fair, righteous, enlightened and good? Do you see the job as reigning in a bucking bronco of a blog in order that –IT– is more democratic fair righteous enlightened and good? and what does that take? There might be conflicts for you, personally.
The thing about all the mentioned commenters, elena greg and twine, is that they tended to drive others away. If it were me, I’d keep elena twine and greg banned for another page or two and see if inclusiveness in the blog continues, is increased, or if their aggressive and flailing energy is necessary to drive participation on this blog.
After all, they are all welcomed to tend their own blogs and actually if they did it would be very good as they all have views of the fof that go directly against the fof party line.
Regarding Elena,
it is difficult (for me…) to have to “decide” about a person through a forum of written words. I think I also feel that writing here is a way of communicating for her. In the beginning of the blog Elena was very clear and direct in what she wanted to express. I have to admit however that there are ex-members who do not read the blog when she comes and get so upset about almost everyone. On the one hand, you can say who cares? I think it is important to have this forum a bit balanced. Many current members are certain what is written here is nothing more than lies. I am not sure whether a more even approach to the information and personal stories that are shared will change their minds. I doubt it.
However, the blog has helped people who were having doubts and had wanted to admit there was something ugly in the FOF. There must be some more in there who have maintained their common sense. They might be helped to look a bit further…
A solution might be to limit Elena to one or two posts a day. And if she gets mad to people again and starts writing pages after pages, to simply allow the moderator to censor her posts. It is very tricky of course, but it is very clear that this forum gets more to the point, attracts more writers and potentially more readers when we do not have extreme reactions.
On the ‘Elena’ situation…..
Do you not see how we are approaching a difficult area with balanced posts? This is how the blog is now. This needs to be considered…..Nigel.
Crouching Tiger,
are you sure about the sexual offender thing? I checked the California sex offenders registry and AL’s name is there, but the person listed is a young man…I remember when AL went to London everyone talking about some minor issues with wine selling… Lies again?….
81/3. Ames Gilbert:
‘Porto Alegre 5’
appears 2 times in your list.
– – – – – –
Periodically, certain posters seem to need to give it a rest – they seem to get out of self-control. (I include myself amongst them.) If gentile suggestion from friends does not work, then temporary banning makes for good correction. The moderator has a nearly thankless job and should be spared unnecessary extra time requirements. (And, BTW, thank you moderator!)
Sorry, ‘gentile’ should be ‘gentle’ in that last post.
Ames,
I know the “propylaia” is easily monitored. The administrator can see who has logged in. If you use the log name and password too often, it might get blocked…
31. Panoritsa
The admin doesn’t know if the intruder is the obedient servant or two “awakened” persons, who exchange their knowledge.
If you only log in two times per day but never together with your partner, you will be in and it works.
20 is new
Who is afraid of ELENA Woolf?
The FOF works with subtle fears (expulsion from the community = death) but the dreadful worse is to leave the FOF and still obey the FOF order without perceiving the smell of the FOF poison.
I completely agree with Arthur.
There is a group of about a 100 people most of them from Brazil and some from Guatemala and Mexico who belong to some kind of a cult based on Mayan sources. The information I have is that their leader, who recently died told them just before he passed away to become RB students. 28 of them recently attended a special prospective meeting. I do not know how many joined or intend to join if at all. I know that some of RB’s “new teaching” resembles the symbols these guys used to study. Maybe RB took the symbolic ideas from their leader in the first place.
BTW, I don’t think RB is planning to relocate to Egypt.
Panoritsa.
AL told me it was a young female in California, and he does have a habit of cultivating relationships with young mothers with daughters. But I don’t have any further information beyond what he told me and as I say, his observed habits. He never showed obvious interest in young men.
Re: A. Ll in London:
Lloyd’s of London would not indemnify the situation, mentioned here on the blog, even if it meant the family name. If you get my drift.
Several times I have asked current members if they read the blog and they have said that they did not because it was just a lot of negativity from angry former members. Elena’s posts only confirm this opinion and actually make it true.
I would advise being very careful about accusing someone of child molestation. Just be sure to have the facts. Many men’s lives have been ruined just by being accused, even after being found innocent the taint of the accusation remains. I don’t know the situation but I believe AL has a wife or former wife in the U.S. She could be contacted for her input as to any threat.
39 Vena, I also know of at least one person who stopped reading this blog because it became the Elena blog. She should know that this blog – provided and tended by others is not her only option for her to express herself. I actually think she should start her own blog since she seems to like to blog.
26. DXP – September 3, 2009
I tend to agree with JamesM about elena. But if she were to be unbanned maybe the debanning should be inclusive – to twine and greg too.
~~~~~
Hey DXP, I agree with you, but then I would, right?
This is the primary forum for ex-members to vent their rage (or call it what you will) regarding their experience with the FOF, and cults in general.
Just don’t read the authors you don’t like, and read the ones you do like (if that is how you must deal with such things), because in any case, for EVERYONE who posts here – regardless what they have posted – there is someone who reads it and may even enjoy the read, and may even find some germ of usefulness there.
There is a lot of confusion on this forum, just as there is a lot of confusion in the FOF (as in, uh, Life in general – no surprises there) and the major difference is that here people can openly discuss it (without censorship??? – we all wish, eh???), but there in the FOF nobody can discuss a damn thing, except by feeling guilty about it (or some other negative emotion.)
Anyway, a little or even a lot of friction is useful when you know how to use it.
ps- bring everybody back into the mix, and stop censoring anybody, and eliminate the big banning stick… or not.
#17 (from Elena) and #43 (from Itstwinetime) are both new are both of these participants still do not have an unblocked path to the blog. I let these two posts in because they don’t seem to go against any of the conditions that warrant being kept off.
Since both of these two people have had actions taken to keep them from posting I’m not going to let them have the “key to the house” right now.They will have to knock before entering and I will have to determine if it’s friend or foe at the door. This is not a role I want to assume, but for now it is what it is.
Boundaries are necessary to keep any organism healthy, otherwise corruption insues. Sometimes boundaries have to be firm and sometimes flexible, depending upon the situation.
Our boundaries define us.
43. itstwinetime
“There is a lot of confusion on this forum”
That is not my experience of this blog. There are certainly many voices, but it is actually pretty simple and straightforward. Page 80 is a recent good example.
You also said,
“Just don’t read the authors you don’t like, and read the ones you do like”
That sounds o.k. if we were just here to have fun and exchange a few ideas. However, if you take the possibilities of prospective new students coming here, or people in the fof that perhaps are looking and questioning, or those who have left the fof and are in need of a little support, then that changes things a bit. If you have people posting who are chasing away readers and posters with both rambling and self-serving length or with their bile and personal attacks, then the blog loses some of the purposes it may serve.
As whalerider just said,
“Our boundaries define us.”
44 fofblogmoderator
I believe you have made the right move in developing a ‘play it as it feels right’ approach to posters who overly upset others and the general ‘run’ of the blogsite. I have been one of those ‘over the top’ posters and was, consequently ‘lumped in’ with Elena by Ames some pages ago. What worked for me was seeing that my life experiences were fine for me, but were not necessarily something that, being described on the blog, ‘worked’. Seeing that others had more difficult needs to be addressed helped me limit my posts, if not in number, then in length. I feel you are working incredibly well with a very difficult job, Steve…..Nigel.
On the blogs people not only express their opinions but also share information, inspire for an action, ask and answer questions, comment, quote etc.
There are blogs where certain words don’t show up on the screen – you see **** instead.
And many blogs censor ALL postings. If a message below it’s standards, instead of the message the auto memo shows up: “This message violates the standards of our blog” In this case nobody needs to be banned and no rudeness will leak thru. And also we won’t have to spend many hours arguing whom to ban and whom not to ban.
Just an idea…
48. Tatyana
“Just an idea…”
The problem I see with that is that it puts the moderator in a very difficult and very time consuming position. It is my understanding that the present moderator volunteered for a pretty much thankless job to help keep the blog in motion when the Sheik was leaving. I think we need to thank him for that partly by trying to not put him in a position that he may not wish to assume.
Maybe, I don’t really know how moderating works. But even if it was similar to this or temporary, it could help the blog to be more functional and balanced.
According to Ayurveda there has to be a free flow in the ‘organic body’. When blockage occurs that is where disease sets in.
Excreations are the removal of ‘toxic waste’. Dont hold back..If you got to go—-go!
Maybe current members and some recent departees or some old folks need to ‘talk’ as excretions of ‘toxic waste”?
Elena just left a pile, dont smell, and you wont vomit.
She just admitted she is not “idle” as the blog “flows” but she is in a stoppage. No outlet as far as this blog-duct is allowing the “flow”.
As Bartles and James of Gallo wine said, “thank you for your support”.
43. itstwinetime – September 3, 2009
ps- bring everybody back into the mix, and stop censoring anybody, and eliminate the big banning stick… or not.
YOU WISH, ITS WINE TIME!!!
Or should I say N-cholas Spa-lding!
Formerly Howard Carter, etc
fofblogmoderator:
I’d prefer that any banning be swifter, and those that have been banned already be placed on probation and moderated post by post when they return, to which I am not opposed.
I value your time and energy…and this forum.
The former blog moderator had a Paypal button linked to the blog. It’s easy to sign up for a Paypal account, although be advised that when a person pays you, your name will be revealed to them on their credit card statement.
If you are willing, I’d happily contribute toward some financial compensation of your time to do more moderating.
Nevertheless, a big thank you for your efforts!!!
BTW, viewing limit setting as getting “hit by a stick” is very revealing of that person’s level of emotional intelligence; they’d like to put you in the parental role which they probably lacked growing up.
Don’t buy into it; you are doing a great job at a job that needs to be done in any community. That why societies need police.
Their boundaries where probably not respected or adequately taught to them….maybe they did get hit and/or were neglected in some way by their parents or caregivers and therefore have difficulties respecting the boundaries of others.
It would be predictable that such a person, acting on an unconscious need to have boundaries set for them, would display attention seeking behaviors that can be shocking or disturbing to others.
I do not have strong feelings about the banning issue. I was originally against banning Greg, but realized later that he seems quite “unbalanced”. I concur with Vena’s observations about the apparent effects of not having some of the contributors, namely Elena, on the latest 2 pages.
I do not have problem with supporters of FOF contributing here. They actually provide material for replies, arguments, etc… They are useful in showing to the world the wooden language of indoctrination (I miss Howard Carter), use of obfuscation and circular reasoning, as they are pervasive in FOF and key to its success.
Although I do not have personal issue with Elena (I largely speed read or skipped over her recent contributions), I think the space she occupies and her style increase the noise to signal ratio of the blog. She has probably put enough words on the blog to fill 2-3 full length novels. She repeatedly bemoans the fact that some of her posts are criticized or, worse in her view, ignored. She offers a “fundamentalist” approach to our opposition to FOF, belittling, if not wishing to exclude anyone who might see such opposition differently than she does, perhaps aggrandizing her actual role in the process. In other words, if one is preoccupied by the effectiveness of the blog in accomplishing one of its often stated goals (“draining the victims pool”), I view her recent contributions as largely a detriment. If the blog is a place where anything goes, she can be in, as far as I am concerned.
Hello Steve and All,
All considering you have been very generous with your decision and I sincerely thank you. The first part here I wrote on the 28th and the second earlier today. Please take them both. I will forward my answer to Old fof later in the week, so that we at least greet each other before we go into depth about our differences.
28th of August, 2009
Thank you fofblogmoderator for banning me, I was asking for it wasn’t I? Like in those wrestling matches in which you have to separate the wrestlers for a while so that they recover their aim to win without seriously hurting each other! It’s a good metaphor of our blog.
Steve, as I’ve said many times, we’re all learning here and I support you almost unconditionally. Everything is perfect! And perfectly imperfect too! Like life! But living is the struggle to make it better each day and that is why rules and conditions are needed. I hate rules and conditions because they tend to kill the passion but they are also vehicles and if they kill the passion or the human spirit, then, as we well know from the Fellowship experience, they simply brainwash people into conformity with the status quo. That being said, they can also be the guarantee that the subjectivity of the people involved won’t let anyone get run over without a chance or a trial which is essentially what happens with banning or hanging instantly. The problem in the Fellowship is that the rules applied to everyone but Robert and then he partied with our lives.
Your gut feeling and reaction felt much more tuned this time but this is like a symposium and as I understand them, the role of the moderator is to let people get as drunk as they can so that they can bring them selves out without being overrun by the wine! That’s difficult but if you take away the passion and leave only the conditioned behaviour then you kill the symposium and hence, your art! So good! you managed to not ban me for good but haven’t quite managed to ride this wild bull-blog IMHO. The art of the symposium probably lies in precisely that: riding the wild bull of people’s hearts, minds and egos (both I and ego) without falling into the turmoil they are in, like a man who’s not identified with him self!. I’m not knowledgeable about symposiums and their rules but I’m guessing and finding out as we move along, it probably would help us to take a look at them and other arts of moderating.
The impartiality of the moderator is in the ability to not identify with the speakers but at the same time to help the speakers hear each other so that the interaction is as human as possible. My greatest frustration here has been the feeling that no matter how much I talk, I am not heard and the issues are not dealt with, perhaps that is one of the reasons for repeating myself desperately. What brings people to fists is the lack of respect and I’ve felt that there’s as much lack of respect when the issues are not taken on but my personal limitations as when I rant. I am beginning to suspect that it is a natural inclination in humans to attack the character when the issues don’t seem convenient and that is something that we would need to be added to our box of moderating tools as much as each participant’s tool box. I think sharing our character and personality is part and parcel of the deal but when only that is what is considered the balance goes too far off. I do feel you’re bias but that is not what I mind, you must have your own life and position, but above those, you need to be faithful to the art of moderating if that is the role you’ve chosen to take. There needs to be an ethic in the dialogue. If the “institution” provides guarantees to the people, the people will not abuse the institution or each other; if you’re generous, stealing won’t be necessary; if you’re civilized, culture is possible; if you give me quality I won’t need quantity. My “grabbing” it, is inversely proportionate to being dis-acknowledged, unheard and without the protection and that accounts for the feeling of pain and a great deal of the ranting. The pattern for a almost years now has been the adulation from Nigel and a few who were not in the Fellowship and I thank those for that while complete indifference from most others. That has been changing recently. The first time I felt there was an attempt at actually reinstating what I was trying to say was with 007 but that, in the very vulnerable state I was at the time, failed as soon as I felt betrayed.
In the case of itstwinetime and DXP I sincerely believed they were FOF people and couldn’t deal with being deceived again with the same mind games. I was tired and confused and I am sorry for my mistake. I will also check to not be as aggressive even with FOF people if they do show up. I am particularly sorry to itstwinetime for playing dirty with your name.
I know you’re not getting paid for being here Steve and I know it must be very difficult to be where you are but I’m not getting paid either and its not any easier! Having said all that I wish to thank you again, all considering I think you’re mastering your position!
3rd of September, 09
Reading all your posts deciding whether I can stay or not, I hear you. I’ve read up to post 38 of page 81. I’ve been rereading old pages lately and you have loved me at times and I have often turned against you always demanding to go further, disenabling you and empowering you at the same time: More people see the Fellowship today for what it is than if we hadn’t worked on it so intensely.
Everything you’ve all said is true. I acknowledge it and will remember it always. The problem is that everything I’ve said is also true. Ours is an unhealthy relationship from so very many angles but it is the relationship we’ve been able to have according to who we are, why and where. In the midst of that turmoil we’ve come to understand things that we might have never understood, had things been different.
We are not only separate today because of who I am but because I am standing for the need to act against the Fellowship in ever so many other ways than the internet. Those who are willing to consider that, do not feel me as strong a threat as those who are strongly resisting that idea. It has always been like that with us here. It is not us who are against each other; it is our lives that are confronting their positions. We carry the names but we represent millions of people, both ways.
Your page 80 is very good, calm and quiet and many more of you talk than when I am here and this is wonderful and necessary, you must take your time to digest what we are grinding on. Nevertheless, there is a fundamental difference between us and it is that you seem to have accepted the premise that Old fof presented in which, when the time comes for members to commit suicide, they’ll just need to run out, while for me, it is necessary to prevent that as soon as possible. To me you’re giving up while I’m only starting to get ready!
I am what I am and every single defect that you have pointed out is accurate but above all my limitations I am deeply concerned, seriously concerned and committed to, first, the members who are still inside and in great danger including my husband or to be more accurate, ex-husband and second, the potential new members.
To become a happier, better person in the future is a great aim to have James but if I have to choose between that and being the most miserable human being who, nevertheless, helped stop the Fellowship from hurting people, I will choose the latter. I could not live with my self if I did not do everything to it. I don’t believe I need to stop fighting the Fellowship to become a happier, better person or that I need to be a happier, better person to continue fighting the Fellowship. It is the wounds that I still have from the experience what reminds that more people must not be hurt or any of them be hurt any further.
I thank you all for your posts for and against me. I will not compromise my freedom in any way so I will not accept further banning or numbered posts. This is our last try. I will work towards being civil but freely. If you are generous when the final decision comes, I will commit to work on my impossible lack of discipline and consideration for your time and patience, commit to think more carefully before posting and such things that might educate my will and invite you lovingly into understanding our selves, but if you decide to mussel me to see if you can ride on me, I will not accept the reigns. I have become instinctively allergic to them after the Fellowship. It is a beautiful thing to be wild when there isn’t a man worth riding one’s being, a human being worth one’s humanity both wounded and sane and it is worth dying when living becomes impossible. Submitting to injustice is rendition and you will never have that from me. I am not the first or the last human on earth, but the witness and reaffirmation of every man and woman who stood up for freedom before and after me. I am, like all of them, forever at your service, willingly, not submissively. My heart knows not how else to be.
I especially thank Arthur and Dragon not only for standing up for me but for knowing what is happening here. With one that knows, it is enough. With two, it is plenty. As long as there is one with integrity in the Public Square, there is life. With two, there is hope; with more, there is culture. “Long live the Human Being!”
I assume that A Ll is not his real name? Like many other students who took on different names?
Anybody knows his real name. maybe some Londoners?
43. itstwinetime
“There is a lot of confusion on this forum”
No, there isn’t any here, you wish.
Sounds like a ‘shield’ to me.
48. Tatyana – September 3, 2009
“This message violates the standards of our blog”
I disagree.
Let it be the way it is.The moderator doing fine.
Thank you moderator.
“Since both of these two people have had actions taken to keep them from posting I’m not going to let them have the “key to the house” right now.They will have to knock before entering and I will have to determine if it’s friend or foe at the door. This is not a role I want to assume, but for now it is what it is.”
Thank you fofblogmoderator.
I know A L. He was indeed deported back to England for having sex with a minor but he did not know she was a minor. He has the reputation of being a vomanizer, however, and his wife was aware of that. I don’t know if they are still married or not. She did not follow him back to England. I don’t think there is any reason to make more of this than has already been made. It’s all unverified gossip. He is not a monster. He just made a mistake. Let it go.
Having said that, I can only witness to the fact that this page has fallen below the standards that page 80 had established. Maybe it cannot be prevented. Maybe it’s some sort of a law that what goes up must come down. Can we bring the topics back up to where newcomers might find it worth their while reading this blog?
59. Josiane
“It’s all unverified gossip. He is not a monster. He just made a mistake. Let it go.”
“… I can only witness to the fact that this page has fallen below the standards that page 80 had established.”
Words of a true and accomplished enabler.
Enabler of what?
#55 is new and is from Elena. I don’t have time to read it right now, so I just passed it through.
Ya know what, I have to be honest here. I really have no desire to read Elena’s lengthy post. I started to and I just don’t like following your brain Elena.
I’m not sure what to do here. As has been pointed out, I volunteered for this gig a year ago and got the job because nobody else volunteered. I’m happy to turn pages, but the moderating thing is another story. Personally, I’d like to see Elena and itstwinetime gone permanently. Nothing personal. It’s just I feel you detract from the blog. Page 80 was pretty nice.
Steve, go ahead and do what your time allows you.
Thank you so much for all the time and energy you have spent here. Turning the page is more than one can ask.
Anyone can start a blog. You only need an email address and a password.
Hi All,
I translated this passage yesterday and thought some of you might find the perspective an interesting one. It comes from a book I am working on called “Non-duality, the groundless openess” by Douwe Tiemersma.
“If there is a specific world selling itself as absolute reality, you can immediately confirm it as an invitation for self-delusion. There is a conjured reality, that is not real. It is a magic trick that you step into when you don’t see through the trick clearly enough. The art of the conjurer lies not so much in the learning of a certain sleight of hand and manipulation of things, but rather in the skill of putting people in such a place so as to see another reality and not the trick. Therefore, the magician always tells nice stories. People see a wonderful reality. Of course they know that it is an illusory reality. That knowledge requires a holding tight to a firmer reality where the impossible is severed and afterwards appears to spring back up alive on the stage. From a higher perspective you see the trick.
You have the same thing with what the schoolmaster and others have conjured in you and what you have accepted as reality. You have accepted so many things as a matter of course. From your higher being-awareness you clearly see that what you learned is relative and that your belief in it as absolute was an illusion. Each absolute faith in a situation is an illusion. When you take something with name and form as absolute, you confuse the absolute and relative with one another. That is an illusion, a mistaken belief in some form which you take as reality. You see the illusory when the forms become transparent. A child with a monster mask comes to you and wants to scare you. But the mask is transparent and you smile. If someone with authority later says something, you sit trembling and believe everything he says.”
60. Josiane
Bruce is right. Is sounds like it’s coming right out of he mouth of on of Bob’s puppets.
It’s so hard to move on and free your mind and soul….
64. fofblogmoderator
Off with their heads! Chaos and selfishness here only strengthens dirty Bob’s lousy little bed of selfishness.
60. Josiane
“He just made a mistake. Let it go.”
Everyone in prison around the world loves to hear this. Not only are they actually innocent, but they certainly would nevver do it again.
64. fofblogmoderator
” I’d like to see Elena and itstwinetime gone permanently. Nothing personal. It’s just I feel you detract from the blog.”
65. Panoritsa
“Steve, go ahead and do what your time allows you.”
As I said before, ” I would just call it like you see it and move on”.
66. Ellen
and …there was old sex in the room and loneliness, and expectation, of something without shape or name. I remember that yearning, for something that was always about to happen and was never the same…
from The Handmaid’s Tale
Is Robert Burton registered as a sex offender because of his involvement with at least one minor?
They(criminal justice experts) claim that sex offenders are atttracted to rural areas to escape detection and for the low living expenses.
Isnt the Fellowship of Friends (Path Way To Presense) located in a rural area? Is it a sex haven for the depraved and always has been since its inception or not?
Josiane…
Where the two girls, not the daughters of his wife….what do you mean when you say “he did not know they were minors”?
Scary.
Moderator #64
I do not think the blog should be a place where few people dominate with personal problems.
Feeling sypathy for people does not mean they have ‘carte blanche’. It does not mean they get better through blog, maybe worse because they keep rattleing and rattleing.
It would be nice not to have Elena posts any more until next year. Then if same, never again.
It is a “peaceful” and safe haven for the depraved and besides they are heaving a sigh of relief with a malicious smile because of
THE BLOG playing banning wave plays with different persons (you may replace them, just anybody).
That’s what the Blog may be for the FOF:
A sofa cushion!
but there is more than a little danger for the depraved.
What’s about to pass judgement on certain posts.
Weren’t you all in the FOF and what is about the possibility to speak with each other (per phone/video conference etc.).
It is quite easier to look at the eyes of a person and to see what is going on.
The vulnerability of certain persons is so much greater than the vulnarability of others.
It is something written in the genes.
But the people with that unique vulnerability are those, who are able to DETECT what is wrong in our societies and I am grateful to them because they enrich our lives.
From Fofblogmoderator:
Personally, I’d like to see Elena and itstwinetime gone permanently. Nothing personal. It’s just I feel you detract from the blog. Page 80 was pretty nice.”
_________________________________________________________________
I agree. I don’t read Elena’s posts anymore either. As soon as I saw that long post I thought, “Here we go again. The blog becomes only about Elena.” She needs help and a venue for her writing but in my opinion it’s been this blog long enough.
Ames, Where are you and what are you thinking about this?
Today, I read both the dated posts from Elena in 81/55. She seems pretty set on FREEDOM! But freedom must be linked to principles and not become an anarchic free for all. When we were in the FoF, we used to use the phrase – external consideration. People used to link this to just general kindness. It is not really that simple. I used to approach people with the idea of external consideration meaning dealing with them to what they might become, in a ‘higher’ sense (i.e. applying standards, virtues etc.). When I could not do it, I usually buffered interractions with people with stupid quips and jokes. I have a feeling that Elena wants only her own standards and principles on the blog (sorry, Elena, but I think it is going to be ‘pretty much of the same old stuff’). Flailing words have more chance of driving away interested and needy people from the blog than of attracting them…..Nigel.
Dear moderator.
I trust your decision. Thanks again for what you do. Banning somebody would be hard for me too and yet, trying to read Elena’s post….
Can’t do it. It is especially about what Elena thinks, she “knows it” Hardly ever a decedent question a pondering a wondering why somebody writes a certain way.
She has two strategies: attacking or “preaching her truth”.
I feel sad for her own inner pain and hope she finds way to come into turns with this wound.
I agree the energy of the blog , when Elena comes on with her tirade, diverted more from interesting ideas and exchanges…I see it over and over.
Said the above, I am not responding to this subject matter anymore and aim to contribute in a healing, contributing and informative way. My time is too precious.
74. Dragon
My sentiments exactly!
76.Please, Nige, when you offer interpretation, it sounds a bit political.
Josiane 60.
“It’s all unverified gossip. He is not a monster. He just made a mistake. Let it go.”
What Bruce means by ‘enabling’ is: enabling certain events to occur by our attitudes, which might not have occurred had we remained firm in our ability to act decisively, at the appropriate moment.
One of the most powerful stories posted here in the past few weeks has been Tatyana’s story about her daughter being molested. Sadly, she enabled the event to grow in her daughter’s psyche by being unable to offer the support normally guaranteed by the mother-child relationship. This happened because at the time she was under the hypnotism of one of the fellowship’s basic rules “Do not believe the I’s”, so the responses of a normal human being were disconnected. She has since spoken eloquently of the pain she endured as a result.
There is some potential for a similar situation to occur with the person we are discussing – how much we do not know. If you think it’s all unverified gossip you don’t know him as well as you think you do. I once showed him a photo of my young daughter and his response was abnormal, to say the least.
Just how close does it have to get to home before you would act, instead of just ‘letting it go’? Would you react the same way as Tatyana?
This is the crux of the fellowship in many ways. All the supposed ‘spiritual activity’ that goes on there does not lead to reliable decisions in life, and it tends to paralyse rather than galvanize individuals presented with moral choices. It doesn’t connect with the will, it freezes the will at the kindergarten stage.
The understanding of ‘letting the I’s pass’ in the fellowship is just a retreat to the infantile world, it can’t help anyone grow up and be a responsible human being.
Dear Crouching tiger
Thanks for your contribution so clearly expressed.
This is my two cts.
In is a common phenomenon for single men who love “young girls” to look for a mother with daughters. The (sub)conscious idea is to get into a sexual relation with the daughters. It is a well known phenomena where the strategy “this is our special secret and do not tell anybody” prevails.
Please feel free to ask friends and / or women of the fellowship how many have been abused by “family members”, friends, stepfathers, uncles, nephews, neighbors, teachers, priest etc. All people “they knew”.
Did you ever ask your children, nieces, your wives, husbands?
We are friends and we do not know form each other, who was abused in the past?
So many untold secrets. So many untold secrets. So many untold secrets.
Who dares to ask? who dares to contribute in this healing cycle?
Who dares? I wonder and love responses.
74 & 78 are new
80. Crouching Tiger,
60. Josiane.
I agree completely. This forgiving attitude is what I question these days. So many students express a similar position: he is a latin man, he was drunk, a little mistake. He himself put it “It was JUST my king of clubs” and even said that my “overreacting” to call police was evil when instead I could just show him compassionately that he “missed the room”. Lines of visitors in jail to support him. Not one person to support the girl.
Maybe it is just hard to understand how it feels to be violated when you are 9 years old, and you trust the adult person to be your protector, a father, a friend. My daughter can not sleep with the door unlocked since then, and she has trust issues and carries this stigma, this wound in her. She used to be a free, happy, outgoing kid, laughing out loud. Now she is quiet, insecure and lonely. She verified that when a really bad thing happens, there is no one there for her. Not even her parents. Imagine YOUR parents doing it to you. Can you?
64. fofblogmoderator
“Personally, I’d like to see Elena and itstwinetime gone permanently. Nothing personal. It’s just I feel you detract from the blog.”
74. voloneska:
“It would be nice not to have Elena posts any more until next year. Then if same, never again.”
I agree, fofblogmoderator; please announce something along that line so we can put the endless Elena drama to rest…
Thanks for your efforts here!
I’ve hesitated adding a voice here because I’ve lived in lurkdom for a long time, but I do read.
There is such a huge, positive change in the tone and quality of the blog when Elena takes a break. There is, once again, space for what the blog does best — explore FoF-related issues thoughtfully, in ways that could be helpful to current members on the fence and potential members. This aspect of the blog seems lost when personal rants and vindictiveness take over.
I’m all for second chances, but that has been offered more than once. Others have suggested that Elena start her own blog. She could have the total freedom of expression that she seems to need, and this blog could carry on doing what it does best.
Elena, it’s not technically difficult to start a WordPress blog, and perhaps Steve would be willing to post a link to it at the top of every page. Posting that link seems like way less work than ongoing, tedious moderating that he didn’t sign up for when he took over from the Shiek.
Re the arishakw post — I’ve been posting as wasKathleenW. I have two WordPress accounts, and haven’t been able to figure out how to keep them separate. Steve, sorry for any confusion about why my arishakw post wasn’t held for moderation.
arishakw.
you just to log out from the WordPress as arishakw and re-log with your other wasKathleenW
nice to hear from you again…
87. Panoritsa
Thanks! (blush)
Child Molestation: I have had children come visit me regularily over the years. All girls. Presently, I have an eight year old that stops by after school and when her mother goes to do her community service.
The other girls are now 16 and only one comes over to clean house.
I also have a card carrying state certified child molester with dementia working in my yard. Before it sounds like I got money they both volunteer their services for favors rendered. A beer, a cigar, bus money, etc.
One day I caught the yardman staring at some giggling girls playing two yards over. Even though he has dementia I had to explain to him that if the giggling girls “spooked” and called their Daddy he inturn might call the police. If he did call the police and they got on the “airwaves” with names they would ask for his state issued “card” and God only knows what would happen after that.
He said he didnt do things like that anymore. He said, “the little girl that comes over here, I dont bother her”. Having dementia he doesnt remember who her parents are and what they represent in society. So, I said, “If you did do anything her mother would cut your dick off”.
I had to tell the girl that when she is over here her mother expects me to watch her and not the gardner. And, I told her that if anybody walks though the front gate to come and tell me even if she knew them.
Do you know how hard it is to keep track of two people while you cook your dinner? Multitasked three fold.
Why do I allow this situation to exist? Because I need my yard cleaned and kept away from the prying eyes of nosy busybodies that call the city and report ill kept yards. Everybody knows their station in life in this neighborhood and I take no chances.
I think that because of Robert Burton’s mental illness, the Fellowship of Friends and it’s interpretation of the the Ideas of Gurdjieff have succeeded in demonstrating the law of 7(devolving) in an interesting way. In 1984, when I learned that Robert was gay and not CELIBATE! I was stunned! It confirmed hidden suspicions, but also infuriated me! For 12 years he had micromanaged my life He decided where I would live and for how long, What I wore, What I read. He tried to decide whom I should marry, But I chose someone different than the two that he suggested. He managed our relationship and imposed celibacy.
What I am saying is that for 12 years, Robert Burton held in his hand the reins of my life. And I was a willing participant. When I realized what was actually happening, the 3rd force just fell away for me.
He was no longer my teacher….
I had been away from Renaissance for a year.It buzzed quietly as to whether a Conscience Being could commit Crime, I was surprised that many comfortably cocooned ” older students” reasoned that in the Realms of world 6 and 12, laws of the “courser” worlds
do not apply. They wanted their lovely little lives of good wines, fine books and plays to continue forever, just as he had promised……..Meanwhile, someone’s life is being ripped apart!
The one’s who stay after each Play Of Crime are those who demonstrate the What IT Means To BE A GOOD STUDENT! Now some of those “good students” believe that it is time to try out what their “Conscious Teacher” has demonstrated all these years……
67.69 Dr. Pangloss
73. More history
80. Crouching Tiger
83. Tatyana
My original impulse for the post about AL was because I started sensing a witch hunt against him coming from certain blogers and I felt the need to bring in another view before things got completely distorted from seemingly lack of information. It may be that I don’t know him as well as I thought I did but we were friends, although not very close, when he lived in Apollo and the facts still don’t seem right to me. I am pretty sure there are no daughters involved in his (previous?) marriage and that the events that are referred to must be new and unverified, unless someone has proof to the contrary, in which case I will stop arguing. But the fact that he married (?) a woman with two daughters (in England) does not automatically make him the pervert he is portrayed to be.
If there is one thing I have gained from the blog is to not be afraid to express my personal views on any subject. I am very grateful for that. And if some of you feel that my views come from denial, providing excuses, too forgiving, so be it. You are entitled to your opinion as I to mine.
What was it? Do-Re-Mi-Fa-Sol, etc. The law of “octaves” which state there are no straight lines in Nature.
Robert Earl Buton’s Fellowship of Friends never got passed the first “interval” and where the second “interval” should have been it turned dark, sinister and ugly. That would be around 1979.
Hi y’all!
Sorry for barging in this way, but I wanted to contribute a little music video. It’s a pretty tune, and it looks like enlightenment time at the Galleria!
(at least that’s the way I imagine it, do you?)
much love to you,
Laura
91. Josiane
I don’t know about anyone else, but I had no expectation that your opinion would change because of other’s thoughts. It seldom does in cases like this. But without my opinion of your opinion (and other’s observations) being expressed some might think that you know what you’re talking about. Just like in the FOF. Which in a significant way you are obviously still in.
There will always be the defenders of criminals. “He didn’t mean to hurt me, he was just upset about something I said”. “You just don’t understand him the way I do, he really didn’t mean to do harm”. “You can’t judge RB by ordinary standards”. “He was drunk, he didn’t know what he was doing”. “He wasn’t trying to scam anyone, things just got out of control”. “Things like this wouldn’t happen if he was just given the right kind of understanding”. I’ve known him as a friend for quite awhile, and I don’t think he’s capable of what he is being accused of”.
I’ve heard it all before. Every exploiter depends on the droves of enablers and exploitees. It’s a symbiotic relationship. And you’re part of it.
I found this description of astrological aspect that RB has. Pretty accurate, I think.
PLUTO OPPOSED MARS
The opposition aspect tends to reflect an inner conflict in you, that of a clash between your personal desires and a possible contributing positive role in society, as represented by the opposiion between the personal Mars desires and the more socially orientated Pluto.
You probably require a greater understanding of the nature of personal power, the right application of it to benefit the group rather than to satisfy purely personal aims and desires, especially as you may have the tendency to take advantage of a group’s power and influence to further your own ambitions.
Your nature will express a forceful will, which can be experienced by others as aggressiveness, making them avoid too close a contact with you; in fact, you often appear to be quite unaware of your effect on people; and a greater sensitivity to the rights and reality of others is a quality that you could do well to help develop. This would help minimise any negative effect you may have on others, especially those in close relationship to you, whom you often attempt to dominate. Control in an intimate context is attractive to you; and you are likely to have an intense and powerful sexual nature, which at times can lead towards an affinity with forms of potentially violent passion and sexual undertones. You tend to link sex with power as an exaltation of personal force; and this can stimulate certain problems, although some potential partners can find the sheer physicality extremely exciting and provocative. This, plus the psychological manipulation that you attempt, can lead to stormy relations; and you are probably wiser to moderate and discipline your release of energy through a controlled awareness of its impact on others. You may observe that your flow of sexual energy can be erratic and irregular, where your passions are either ‘hot’ or very ‘cold’, and you are basically unable to regulate them according to demand or switch them on.
In your home life, you may find problems arising in the spheres of financial management, and power struggles, and on the emotional levels of relationships. You porbbaly find that your emotions are driven by the force of passion and sexual energy, and that you have a lack of real understanding of their nature, as they tend to be swept along on the tide. Perhaps this is why you often demonstrate little awareness of the emotions of others in everyday life, as yours are often held in a state of suspended repression, like waters blocked from following their natural route by a dam wall. If the emotional level was released carefully and consistently in a healthy way, the blocked Pluto energy operating on that level could be freed, and many of your problems would begin to dissolve, leading to personal transformation. This would then adjust the level of force and suppressed violence in you, so that you would deal with your power more positively. This would lead to a clearer perception of self and others, allowing partners more personal freedom through mutual agreement and compromise, rather than your previous imposition of will. Taking such a course could develop also towardsg greater social involvement, using your energy in positive and creative channels, realising that if you can change from living mainly to satisfy purely personal desires at the expense of others, then there is the potential for a self-centred violent society to change from exploitation to co-operation and mutual benefit.
93 is new
From Wikipedia:
When the discussion becomes heated and sides do nothing more than complain and not accept each other’s differences in point of view, the discussion degenerates into what is called a flame war. To flame someone means to go off-topic and attack the person rather than their opinion. Likely candidates for flame wars are usually religion and socio-political topics, or topics that discuss pre-existing rivalries outside of the forum
95 brucelevy
If this is the A Ll I think you mean (Josiane), he actually was involved in a scam (i.e. marriage of convenience) ‘relationship’ with another ‘student’ to get his green card, whilst still womanising American ladies, then had difficulties with divorcing aforesaid lady student, in order to marry the next lady student who had the two daughters. Dowry to the first student involved a gift of land at (then) Renaissance. (Don’t know of any other A Ll this would refer to)…..Nigel.
Hi Bruce
Do you actually know A L, or details of what he was accused of? You seem pretty confident about your statement and ready to lump him with RB and Tatyana’s husband for whom we have first hand information.
Just curious.
99. Opus 111
Just what’s been written here.
99. Opus 111
And I’m not lumping him with anyone. I’m speaking about the dynamic of enablers. Their litany and cliches are very common, both in and out. And Josiane has uttered them on other occasions besides this specific one. She is free to ignore it, it’s not my problem.. I’ve put “in” about as much as I’m willing to. The pervasive enabling mentality is one of the keystones of the FOF and every other cult, as well as for the sociopaths that pass through. Another typical one “Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.”
An example, albeit extreme: (if you can’t see the connection, just ignore it.
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/04/cannibal-killer-murdered-again-after-care-blunders/
Not to mention the guy and his wife in Tahoe who kidnapped the girl and kept her for 14 years while raping her. He said (approximately) ” After you here the whole story you’ll find it heart warming”. He said this twice.
If you’ll remember…for years the cries of the abused in the FOF were cut short or ignored as “gossip”. One of their main defenses.
It’s the “charm” of the sociopath that elicits such loyalty from their sheep.
Here’s an interesting study… Take a look at the few members of the GF who are known to have been the pimps, exploiters and sociopaths while in. Notice the inflated number of “friends” they each have, usually of the gender that they prefer to exploit. Then look at the photographs that they post. The vast majority of them are of either themselves alone with smiling faces, or in some absurd pose that they think reflects how the world sees them, or with one or more of their sycophants staring adoringly at their exploiters. It’s pretty fucking unbelievable, in that it’s so transparent and so absurd and sad. It’s pretty easy to see who the douches are, whether one knew them or not.
laura,
re: “…enlightenment time at the Galleria! (at least that’s the way I imagine it, do you?)”
a slightly different perspective here, something you can dance to:
I have faced it,… A life wasted,…
I’m never going back again.
I escaped it,… A life wasted,…
I’m never going back again.
Having tasted,… A life wasted,…
I’m never going back again.
The world awaits just up the stairs
Leave the pain for someone else.
Nothing back there for you to find,…
Or was it you, you left behind?
You’re always saying you’re too weak to be strong…
You’re harder on yourself than just about anyone.
Why swim the channel just to get this far?
Halfway there, why would you turn around?
Darkness comes in waves,… tell me,why invite it to stay?
You’re warm with negativity,
Yes, comfort is an energy,…
But why let the sad song play?
I have faced it,… A life wasted,…
I’m never going back again.
I escaped it,… A life wasted,…
I’m never going back again.
Having tasted,… A life wasted,…
I’m never going back again.
Oh I erased it,… A life wasted,…
I’m never going back again.
Bruce
A “hot button”, I see. I hear you.
80/86. James Mclemore:
‘It sounds like they have a lot in common with Burton.’
And:
81/90. silentpurr:
‘Now some of those “good students” believe that it is time to try out what their “Conscious Teacher” has demonstrated all these years……’
Monkey see. Monkey do.
Yes, Fellowship of Friends and Oregon House, California, has gotten the reputation for being a haven for sexually deviated people; whether they are different, or not, from the general public demographics in this regard. This is much like the American Catholic Church and its harbouring paedeophiles. Many older FoF members that have contacts out of the FoF community locally shield the information of where they live from their associates for that reason or to hide that they are in a cult. This reputation has traveled as far and wide as Grass Valley/Nevada City, Marysville/Yuba City, Sacramento and the San Francisco Bay Area. All the while, many of the members see themselves as enlightened and part of the new social paradigm of sexual freedom.
83. Tatyana – September 4, 2009
Goddam, she was 9 ???
What a fucking motherfucker. I would cut his balls with scissors and let him eat them up.
94. Brucelevy
I am only another voice on this blog. What is it about me that upsets you so much? You think I am still “in” but aren’t we all still “in” until… until what? we witness the demise of FF… or until we manage somehow to heal ourselves? I don’t know about you, but I have recurring nightmares and they are ugly. Do you think they will stop even if FF goes under? You seem rather upset most of the time. Will that change if/when FF goes under? Don’t you ever think about your own healing process? Will you continue to live your life in pain?
110. Josiane
I’m not upset with you, I’m telling you what I think. Period. You don’t know anything about me except when I feel I should say something here. I’m not talking about MY tragedy. I can metabolize it quite well, and at this point it doesn’t play a large part of my life. Only here where my experiences and perceptions may be relevant do I say something.I’m not upset all the time, the only time you really here me here is when I’m calling bull shit. You can do the sugar coating, that’s not why I’m here. Your perceptions about what we have been discussing, as well as your perceptions about me and who I am are, to me, equally lacking in depth and perceptiveness.
Don’t mistake honesty for anger and pain. It’s a cop out, and bs.
Laura, actually a delightful video!
—-
About this AL person, I don’t know who he is or what he is supposed to have done to who and when. Yes, there is an ‘enabling dynamic’ but not everyone who makes a defense is an enabler. There is also a ‘mob mentality’ but not everyone who comes to the conclusion that, based on available information, the guy is guilty, is a mob thinker. Might I suggest that this is not an ‘AL frying forum’, and the only real relevance here is the pervading spirit (or lack of) in the fof that promotes abuse. Frankly, it is not my main disagreement with the fof – lots of organizations promote abuse – abuse is pandemic.
98 is new
106. brucelevy
your glance at the GF reveals the reality all over the world.
Buy targeted friends for xx $:
http://usocial.net/facebook_marketing/#press1
Isn’t it more comfortable for the enablers or FOF gourmets to stay in the sheltered enclosure of the GF.
It is such a familiar surrounding, isn’t it?
By the way, who is to know what the FOF is doing by now?
I think they use what ever they need to get MORE MONEY and “targeted friends” is a wonderful opportunity to catch folllowers….
I agree that it’s dangerous to throw around serious accusations, but AL was imprisoned for at least 2 years for a sexual offence with a minor. I was told that it was his stepdaughter and that his wife had reported him, though she remained loyal to him later. When he moved to Oregon House around the 1998 prediction time he neglected to register a change of address with the authorities, presumably believing that California would fall and everyone would forget about it. Eventually he was found out and had to spend a few days in the cells. He was a salesman for RVW at the time and they had to publicly suspend him, though he just carried on working at home. When this happened a second time he fled the country via Mexico and moved back to England.
I’ve heard him say without embarassment that as he gets older he is attracted to younger and younger women, and this after everyone knew about his imprisonment. I also heard of a previous incident, but only second hand so I won’t risk describing a garbled version here. He also told me that he used to be a drug dealer in England, particularly selling speed. I’ve also heard him refer to his long-term imprisonment and his few days held by Marysville/Yuba police as a kind of heroic suffering.
“I didn’t realise she was underage”. If this refers to his stepdaughter then it’s obviously false. If it refers to anyone else, then it’s obviously his own responsibility to find out the age of the girl. It’s the response of every man who has seduced an underage girl and been caught. “I didn’t realise she was underage.”
And again, the FOF and the shimmering faces in GERMANY.
What are the names of the FOF?
Call it “APOLLO UNIVERSITY DEUTSCHLAND” or call it whatever you need to attract young refined persons at the GERMAN universities.
Those links are older and in GERMAN language but out there are translators and the protocols are really worth to climb down Robert’s and Girard’s speleology.
Click to access ProtokollAach13.pdf
Click to access Protokoll10Goet.pdf
Click to access Protokoll2.pdf
Bruce, not that you need my confirmation, but I just followed your conversation above with Josiane, and you are spot-on.
The Blog Also Rises
Silent purr 90
>For 12 years [Robert Burton] had micromanaged my life He decided where I would live and for how long, What I wore, What I read….
A MEMORY: The single time that I flew in a plane seated next to Robert Burton I pulled out a rather new small leather covered Mark Cross notebook from my shirt pocket by which my tasks for the day were organized and written down (on the slip-in paper cartridge). Carefully I tore off the top paper page of the notebook – to make way for the second page on which to address the tasks for the current day. Robert then leaned over into my face and took the notebook from my hand. He explained in an irritated voice that if I tore out the pages eventually there would be a lateral crease at the top of the front leather cover of the notebook. He handed the notebook back to me – clearly I had been given a task NOT to tear out the pages. My mind was now in a double-bind – and remained somewhat agitated for the remainder of the trip – not believing that this smallest level of my life (one of refuge for me) would be controlled. So… (and many of you may have had different and healthier or better actions or reactions) I finally resolved and right then stopped using the Mark Cross notebook. Later, I threw it away (despite its cost which was a big deal at that time). Still much later I realized (right or wrong) that many of my picked-up affectations like this Mark Cross notebook were a part of Robert Burton’s kind of queeny projected homosexual persona – and where and when found these affectations in myself, I killed them off.
A MEMORY: There were several of us called to come up to The Lodge to help as a student there was out of control. BTW, all apologies and good wishes if you are out there – presenting this from my subjective view (memory – which does play its tricks). Any case, there was a tall thin fellow at the Lodge from an outlying center who was taking very very fast and pretty much gibberish but (and this was perhaps not funny – but struck me then as funny) using “Work Language” in a highly extreme way. For example, about every other sentence he would say “It is a machine” or “It thinks …. this or that” or “It does not think …. this or that.” Perhaps one might note here that this occurred during the Fellowship exercise that we were not to use the word “I” as pertaining to ourselves. So … somehow three of us were selected to take this poor fellow by car to the psychiatric ward at the university hospital in Sacramento. It was quite a trip – he wasn’t violent, but highly agitated and verbally out of control. When we arrived at the ward – we were trying to explain to the clinic admitting staff what the situation was. But you could tell that they had heard it all before – and weren’t convinced. So he came in from the car and they asked him what was going on. He started his first sentence, with the words, “It is a machine …” The main staff guy looked up at us with the expression on his face immediately changed – immediately convinced – and motioned that we could go. It turned out later that the student had been up for perhaps 3-4 days without sleep on No-Doz (caffeine) tablets – to comply with the idea that awakening required not being in sleep. Even still later, I heard that the student had called Mxles Bxrth from the ward and asked how long it would be before “it” would be allowed to leave the ward – and Mxles had replied that he would likely be able to leave when he recovered enough not to refer to himself as “it.”
117 & 118 are new
I do not know if it was sex crime for AL to leave US, but it was fellony and he left before being deported. His FOF story is interesting/ typical. I don’t know him earlier, but in last 8 years. He is typical man who makes career under Stalin or Ceausescu. FOF gives status to people who in normal life have no chance to be somebody. For AL and others, FOF is incredible opportunity to escape life fate. This is good and bad. This kind of person is spine of FOF. Faliure type who owe all to FOF and Burton. Like Ceausescu, Burton gives power to them to keep power himself. Breaks down resistance in higher people by making them submit to faliure people. This is old tacktic. This is why essence made so high. Stupid is common denominator for members. Be simple, be same, challenge to not let lower self – anything intelligent not with blinkers pulling FOF chariot, get in way of work.
Many like this. Those that start higher give up noble aim for party membership. Like pretend beggar on sidewalk moving head like crazy person, end up stuck with posture and have no choice but to be beggar.
More Memories Please:
Oh, Elena #98 Didnt the “workbooks” claim that arguments are the result of the lack of “Understanding”?
How to understand goddess in a male body? As director of the insane asylum claims.
I have tons of interesting memories.
The first Center dinner I attended was at a restaurant in New York and there were some visitors from other centers joining us. There were maybe 10 of us at the table. When the meal was over, the bill came and one by one everyone looked at the bill and then put in money according to what they ordered. When we added up the money, we were short by a significant amount. So we passed the check around again explaining the concept of tax and tip, and again we came up short. I couldn’t help but think that these people seemed quite incapable. I added money out of my pocket to help make up the difference. This was not the last time this happened. As a matter of fact, the last time it did occur was at the Apollo D’oro (the lodge) right before I resigned my membership. There were only 3 of us at the table. Pathetic!
Something different, but pertinent…..
One, clever (Venus-Mercury, lady, psychotherapist), student once said at a centre meeting in the Bay Area, “It is possible to be sincerely naive”. God knows how many of these ‘sincerely naive’ folk in the FoF were asked for almost all the money they could spare, were asked to move to other centres to support them (when they barely could support themselves) and found themselves unable to be in one-after-another marriages that the ‘monied and smarter-assed’ students were wont to get involved with. Let alone finding that they (naive students) could not be in the roles of ‘power and sway’, like a GH, HM, EH or others had (and coveted) to themselves.
I feel that those who have left and survived their ‘FoF scars’ and are working with their ordinary (“The world is full of ordinary people, extraordinary people” – Barbra Streisand) lives and have manged to find themselves good, real friends, have achieved a great deal for themselves…..Nigel.
When I went to my first “prospective student meeting” in north Houston I went under the influence of weed. Paranoid a little bit being with all the queers (you know the crackpot and oddball types.
They had to be those types coming from the den of iniquity.
I remember Jose mentioning Homosexual in his “angles” of body types. Had I known what some knew then and as I know now, I would have left “smoking” down the freeway.
One of these days we should dedicate a page to Stella Wirk. To my knowledge she was the very first person to start a website to make public the fact that the Fellowship of Friends is a cult, and to assist people who were leaving. I was already long gone by the time I had a computer and found her site, but I had a few fond memories of her, and one that was very special…………………
Thirty years ago when the scale finally tipped after months of agonizing, and I realized I was going to leave; I was in an extremely vulnerable state. I felt pretty hopeless, and yet I just knew I had to get out of the fof if I was going to keep my balance. All of my life I had struggled with fear and with what could be called a ‘poor self image’. The fof I suspected, was not only not helping, but was making worse any problems I had. Although parts of me were still quite afraid that I was making an error of gigantic proportion, I just knew in my heart that Robert Burton cared nothing about me or my possible healing or awakening, or whatever the hell I thought I was looking for. I don’t know how I knew this, I just did. I just did not trust him. (At this time I knew nothing of the goings on in the Blake Cottage).
Anyway, my decision made, I saved just enough money to rent an apartment in Daly City, and moved out of the Tenth Ave, SF student house. I had a few people in the fof I felt very close to, but I told no one of my plans as I was unsure enough of what I was doing, and still under the sway of enough ‘cult think’ that I did not wish anyone else to ‘lose their work’ or ‘lose the school’ on my account. I had only my clothes, my car, and a sleeping bag.
I somehow summoned the courage and decided I did not wish to just disappear, but for myself I wanted to end this portion of my life by announcing my leaving. I went to a meeting in SF that Stella and some male student (I think it was E. Ha–is, were presiding over. As was the custom, they would speak with and counsel individuals during the mid-meeting recess. I waited in line, and was photographed once for ‘looking like my only friend had just died’, and then finally got to sit down with Stella and the other leader. I told them I was leaving and the male immediately began a long sermon, telling me I was making the biggest mistake of my life and that my possibilities for awakening would end. He continued in this fashion with the entire personal doomsday spiel. Stella just sat and listened for a while and then interrupted him. She looked at me and then him and told him that she did not think I had come there to be talked out of anything, but that I had come to say good-bye, and asked me if that was correct. I nodded my head. To the other leader’s obvious dismay, she took my hand, looked me in the eyes, and sincerely wished me well. We both stood and she gave me a hug. I had always admired her and at that moment I loved her. I remember walking outside and looking up at the night sky, and just saying to myself, “WOW!!” I felt lost but free, and hoped like hell it was the right sort of feeling free. It was very difficult at first, but I went on with my life, and learned not to look back. I re-entered life and definitely ‘verified’ what I had already long suspected, and what was for me one of the chief reasons I did not trust Robert Burton. He had no compassion for what he referred to as the ‘life’ people who inhabit this planet. He stated this bluntly in a number of ways, and I always cringed a bit somewhere inside when other students mimicked that coldness. I always knew there was something very wrong about that idea, but of course had temporarily shelved those feelings with the rest of my intuition and conscience. (I now realize he had/has no compassion for anyone.) Life is, of course, full of wonderful people. I have met a number of them. A few years later, I began a relationship and had a child, and from the experience of fatherhood learned more about myself in the first few years of my daughter’s life than I could have learned from a lifetime in the fof.
I still told myself and others that it had been a useful experience, and when I read a newspaper article about the fof where the word ‘cult’ was used, I thought it was an exaggeration, as I felt sure that I could not have possibly been in a cult. Even had I known there was still a wound from being in the fof, I would have thought it had closed and healed, but evidently not completely. I had come across Stella’s site, and after that read a newspaper article from online about the 1994? exodus, but I still wondered a bit. I think somewhere deep inside there must have still been the open question of being sure it was the right sort of ‘feeling free’ that night I left. I found this blog almost 30 years later and my question was answered.
Thanks to you all and to the Sheik (and Steve), and once again a thank you to the beautiful spirit of Stella Wirk.
126 James Mclemore
That was so beautifully put!…..
So many of us owe a ‘debt of gratitude’ to, maybe, one or two, when we left, who gave us the hope that we would…..how shall I put it?…..make a wholeness of our being, out here in LIFE…..and it is, truly, LIFE!…..Nigel.
120. Old FOF
Oh yes. Those stupid little note pads. Everyone had to have one. You had to leave the top page blank. One of dirty Bob’s little “high alchemy” rules. What were some of the others?
– Run water in sink while pissing so Bob doesn’t hear the sound (I wonder if he has the current golden shower boys do that these days)
– Walk with toes pointed straight ahead.
– No eating onions because of breath.
– Buy an expensive leather briefcase and put an ugly plastic black cover over it.
– Wear those Johnston & Murphy shoes designed for leisure wear around the house, that were quickly destroyed by all the gravel roads and rocks around Oregon House.
– Over priced Hermes ties for men, scarfs for women.
– Horrible Victorian cameos for all the women
– worn-out used tuxedos bought in bulk from a formal wear rental company sold to all men at the barn.
… and on and on.
This Gomer Pyle doppelganger saw himself as Henry Higgins to all the young Eliza Doolittles under his wing.
And all this was all before Bob came out of the closet.
128. Dr. Pangloss
Cover your mouth when you smile or laugh.
I only remember the name Stella Wirk and it was always mentioned positively. I did see her in San Francisco sitting on stage with Uncle Bobby and a few others at a large Masonic Hall meeting.
And, I do remember the 10th street house. It was one morning and I was the only one in the house. I was waiting for Amelia for a ride to the Greyhound Bus terminal. The phone rang and I answered, “hello”. The voice on the other line, the western pseudo-naga said, “are you still here”? And, with a chuckle, he did.
Thanks Girard!!
Finding Stella Wirk’s website a decade or so ago was my first step in healing the black hole of pain that was left in my soul from losing my lover to the Fellowship of Friends. I read it and finally sobbed. Never had I been able to even speak of what had happened to my relationship with my lover of five years. How does one even begin to try to explain the Fellowship of Friends to other “life people.”
Now, over 30 years later, the blog has completed healing my pain. I have read posts from intelligent, articulate bloggers who admit that they were deluded and deceived. I thank Stella (RIP), and the bloggers (including Elena).
James Mclemore 126
Poignant.
It strikes me that the bones of your well-told story contain the blueprint of how many sincere people leave the Fellowship. For one thing, either alone or in small groups – and lonely. And often just feeling your way somewhat blindly – leaving behind what no longer seems right.
The funny thing is that leaving the Fellowship is very like the fourth-way-story given to explain why one needs a group in the first place – to dig out of prison. For example, this blog.
My experience with Stella also jives with yours, James. Thank you.
132 Old FOF
I have a shorter version of the last time I saw Stella. I was still plying my (failing, financially) business in Sausalito and she was in San Rafael, as a ‘partner’, with her husband, Harold, along with two other ex-members, in a hologram-selling business. All I can remember was her beaming smile when I told her what I was doing…..friends (and prompters) along the way!?…..Nigel.
Dear Josiane
Thanks for responding. As you mentioned healing, yes healing is my track at the moment. Sharing my story and feeling the feelings instead of “transforming” them. After leaving for a while and out for 1 1/2 I am still in the process of healing. Hearing the story of the girl that was kept in Antioch for 15 years, I knew that I had a strong wish to stop this kind of things. It will help my healing. Dear Josiane, I am coming back to my question: do you dare to ask your friends for their story of sexual abuse? Do you? There is much unresolved trauma in many of us and sharing your story, listen to your friends’ story is part of healing. That is live and in the fellowship of friends we were conditioned not to bother about these details. Suffer, transform, and give up your will.
I never really got to know Stella Wirk, but I will never forget the time I arrived at the ocean front Carmel teaching house (pretty nice digs) with Burton and entourage around 1977. Stella had the television on in the master bedroom upstairs with the sound on and she did not turn it off as everyone expected when Bob pulled in. “Towering Inferno” one of the first disaster movies of the 1970s was playing. The sound was loud and it irritated the hell out of Bob. On that night, I saw the spirit of Stella. Bless her.
122 is new
122. voloneska
…FOF gives status to people who in normal life have no chance to be somebody…
yes.
122. voloneska
Interesting take on FOF. I left right before the flood of ex-communist country members started moving to Oregon House. It’s easy to see how Burton would gravitate to these countries to populate his feudal estate. By offering a promised better life under his paternal care, former victims of the likes of Ceausescu would easily submit to his devises.
What eventually happened to Mr. Ceausescu??
Wächter sollen beide Anteile entwickeln,…. Das Instinktive und das Bewegungszentrum werden
ständig in Aufruhr gehalten – nicht EINschlafen. Dagegen wird das Emotionale hochgehalten.
Beispiel Girad/Robert – seine Jünglinge.
Guardians should have the opportunity to develop both, ……the instinctive centre and the moving centre
Constantly thrown into a turmoil – you should not fall asleep.
Compared with them the emotive centre is to uphold. E.g. Girard/Robert – his young men.
That’s an exerpt from a protocol of the Apollo University Germany!
It is an old principle to teach and to take advantage of a combination of instinctive/moving and emotive centres.
It is older than Sokrates/Platon, it is older than Isis/Osiris, it is older than Mesopotamia, older than the Apollo-11-cave located in Namibia (http://www.heinrich-barth-stiftung.de/hb_files_d/hb_projekte31.html).
What a pitiful man is that TEACHER Robert E. Burton using the greatest gifts or mankind in such a half-baked way.
Knowing means to be humble, to use it extremely rare.
I think all members of the FOF gone through the sad/uneasy lesson of Robert know that eternal truth deep in their hearts.
It is never to late.
130. brucelevy
Cover your mouth when you smile or laugh.
To be honest, it’s hard not to laugh now when thinking about the man.
Time does heal all wounds.
silentpurr,
thanks and a smile to you,
love to lauralupa 🙂
141. Dr. Pangloss
But will time wound all heels?
How about a portrait of RB made of….
(you choose)
122. voloneska
Good one. Thanks.
144 is new
132. Mishaba
Glad you are here. Glad you are healing. True, this blog has been a healing place for me as well. Even after years of leaving the FOF I still had some things I needed to shed away. Still working on it.
————————————————————–
143. brucelevy – September 6, 2009
141. Dr. Pangloss
But will time wound all heels?
—-
what does it mean?
————————————————————–
Lauralupa, welcome back! : )
————————————————————–
TO ALL BLOGGERS:
love the memories, keep them coming!
Those are true stories.
I am now going through my old diaries as a full brainwashed member during the FOF years; It’s amazing what I am reading and it is painful to revisit! I was going crazy.
Here’s a Benjamin Yudin memory:
We were driving together from NYC to New Jersey and we were talking about the school or whatever and I guess I was “taking up too much space” because Benjamin suddenly turned to me and said; “hey. could we try 10 minutes of silence?”. Me being ‘Mr. Passive” I said “sure, no problem”, but I was amazed at how someone could shut me up and make it seem like it was in the context of “doing the work”.
Here’s another fairly recent memory:
A person joined in the L.A. center about 7 years ago. He was a younger guy probably about 24. Although when I joined in ’94 you were told to wait a year in the FOF before you could visit Apollo or have much face time with Robert, this guy was invited up to dine with Conscious Bob within the first month or so. I was always curious how the center higher-ups knew which ones were worthy of the special treatment. So this guy goes up to have dinner with Bob and when he returns to L.A. he sends out a mass email to all the L.A. students saying that while having dinner with Bob, he suddenly saw not a conscious being, but a very evil man. This guy advised us all to run away as quickly as possible. We all thought he must of had some kind of breakdown while visiting Apollo. That was last we ever heard of him.
It’s funny how some people just get it right away.
James Mclemore 126
>from the experience of fatherhood learned more about myself in >the first few years of my daughter’s life than I could have learned >from a lifetime in the fof.
This has been very true for me too.
After leaving, the impulse for a normal decent life was strong – and not just cleansing (which it was) – but fulfilling.
More Memories Please:
I think the revisiting does things. It helps expose in a personal way the Chuckleheads , wounds some heels and helps others come to grips.
Remember the thing about “angles” where asking and answering helps the questioner and “lurker”?
I was thinking, over the past few days, whether the cult called The Fellowship of Friends was anywhere approaching A Conscious School?…..
…..if a ‘school’, what does it teach? Refinement of Personality around a Core of Perverted Crime, is the phrase that comes to my mind…..
…..I remember a quote from REB, “Technology is our art-form”…..and how many computer programmers thought they ‘had it made’ with their so-called Essence…..
…..more like Money-Making and Bullshit were the ‘Essences’ of the Day…..
I do not have my Walt Whitman books to hand, but he stated something like, “Who thought the world was a trinket for a foo-foo?”…..
Did Walt have some sort of premonition about REB, when writing that?…..
When B Y was Princpal of the LCS I questioned him about how he interacted with women in the fellowship. He said I want to have as much sex with as many women I can.
After that I got so worried about him being with the teenagers…. Not long after he gave up his principle ship. I could not understand why Robert gave him his studies task for bibble and Kabala. I could not trust the man anymore. This was one of the first time I questioned Robert decision making as a distant student.
And there is much more.
153 Another Name…..and backward-going posts…..
REVISITING!!!!! If we all told more stories of the torrid machinations that have been perpertrated in the FOF. maybe the ‘message would get through’ to those ‘in’, who are thinking of ‘out’…..Nigel.
154. Nige,
a very good householder idea!
Tell your truth, tell your stories, let it flow…
Some memories have to remain general and not specific. Out of respect.
But remember Richard F. the hairdresser/waiter? He died in Hawaii sans Robert Burton’s healing hand (you know the Christ like guy).
The last time I saw Richard was deep in the Grand Canyon. On a hike we were. On the way back up it was William (the little merc) Robin and me, walking in total darkness except for the flashlight william had. At one resting place (William decided the rest spots) he had the flashlight. I kept falling asleep at all the rest stops–tiring it was. Anyway, I started to get up and couldnt because I was slipping off the edge. William grabbed my hand and saved me from a great fall.
Anyway, some blogger back yonder in mentioning Richard stated he noticed Richard coming out of the Male Hag’s bedroom with a strange look on his face.
That’s down right awful. Did the Male Hag ever visit his sick students? And, students of what?
153 Another Name
” When B Y was Princpal of the LCS I questioned him about how he interacted with women in the fellowship. He said I want to have as much sex with as many women I can.”
This guy used to come over to the house I shared with students at Oregon House on a weekly basis to have a session with one of my house mates. I used to wonder how any woman could have sex with that. Oh well. Of course this was during the no sex unless married exercise. Later this fat schlub was my center director and called me to tell me I needed to stop living with the student I had a committed relationship with unless we got married by order of the teacher.
Hypocrites rise to the top of the sesspool within FOF.
156 Arthur
is the Male Hag Robert Burton?
RB was fond of Richard but I doubt he ever visited him in person when RF was really sick. If you think about it this is strange; would RB feel at loss in front of a dying “student”? Would he run out of angles or out of the room?
He seems to live a very sheltered life and if you think about it, he may not even have the normal skills to go about a normal day. Can you imagine RB going grocery shopping? put his laundry away? Think how this could make him indeed very vulnerable if by chance his protectors and servant students were not available to do all the the things we just take for granted to meet our daily needs. Would he be lost? Would he go paranoid? I do not think he has the being to be even taking care of himself in an ordinary way. He strikes me as a cripple with extraordinary manipulative tactics to get what he wants.
with reference to 158 Veramente…..
…..my ‘Little Oxford Dictionary’ does not even list SOCIOPATH (does it refer to the behaviour that Veramente is describing?)
Some explanations might be…..
1) parasitic.
2) unable to live, except through the actions of others, and to believe they
themselves ‘are doing’.
3) socially, emotionally and SEXUALLY dysfunctional/abnormal.
With all due respects to ‘seahags’ a fifth grade teacher out of the bowels of a lunatic fringe and living in his car makes it to the apex of living life large and having his underwear starched and iron by groupies. That’s a male-hag. Some kind of witch! Robert Earl Burton is, ‘thou art the man’.
And, Girard Haven his assistant stirring the cauldron? Chucklehead.
Listen everyone! Robert Burton is not the Goddess he claims to be! I was with Robert and a group of students one time when he decided that we’d lunch at this very formal restaurant in downtown Boston.RB was wearing his beautiful Camel sports jacket with an open collar shirt. The maitre d’ patiently explained that indeed, Robert would need choose from the ‘house ties’ in order to comply with their dress code. It seemed like a major decision for him, picking through…Finally, he chose and we sat down to eat. This was fully humiliating for him and he likened it to Christ’s Play. The suffering, that is, of being made to wear a grubby silk necktie stained with a drop of mustard sauce! Poor RB, pouting like my 7 year old at home!
120. Old FOF – September 5, 2009
‘somehow three of us were selected to take this poor fellow by car to the psychiatric ward at the university hospital in Sacramento.’
Interesting, is it not what happened recently to Tatyana Noble after she have spoke to Robert Burton at the dinner?
It went silently, no one spoke about that…
Is that the clinic Ethan Harris has connection to?
He works in Sacramento too.
and he is psychiatrist.
and a longtime ‘believer’ and enabler, now consul or has another role in FOF’s apparatus.
I’m wondering if he is the one who issuing prescriptions drugs, Darvon and Viagra, for Robert Burton?
He needs to be investigated.
148. 411 – September 6, 2009
‘taking up too much space” because Benjamin suddenly turned to me and said; “hey. could we try 10 minutes of silence?’
This guy never shut himself up. Probably your talk was not about him, that’ why.
157. Dr. Pangloss – September 6, 2009
‘This guy used to come over to the house I shared with students at Oregon House on a weekly basis to have a session with one of my house mates. I used to wonder how any woman could have sex with that. Oh well. Of course this was during the no sex unless married exercise. Later this fat schlub was my center director and called me to tell me I needed to stop living with the student I had a committed relationship with unless we got married by order of the teacher.
Hypocrites rise to the top of the sesspool within FOF.’
I’ve heard that the Bible keyer is an orgy lover.
X-ray
The person and incident referenced in the memory was many years ago. NOT related to any of the FOF psyches – including Dr. Harris. The mental health clinic was connected to the UC Davis university hospital – the one located (at least then) in downtown Sacramento.
Thinking on this – and your posts reinforce – that there have been many many members over the years who experienced psychological breakdowns. Think so because I knew of several – had to have been much wider than my narrow personal vantage. And you add another.
Also, it’s like from the lesson-plan for sociopathy – we were collectively encouraged to ignore or not register too deeply the physical or mental sufferings and breakdowns of our fellow members. Almost see them as moral failings.
A cast member goes down – and is quietly dragged off stage with a hook from a mostly unseen source. All the other players taught to ignore unpleasantness of the suffering of the “weak” one.
Personally, I’ve come to especially despise the phrase “some come to eat; some come to be eaten.” A central justification for not looking out for the welfare of the vulnerable.
“some come to eat; some come to be eaten.”
Yes, that idea could certainly serve to make sure students stay divided and off balance. Always unsure of the people who are their supposed ‘friends’, and ready to ‘write them off’ just as quickly as they met them. And it also keeps followers just a little unsure of themselves. All of it just the way Burton likes it.
I doubt the phrase has any truth connected to it on any level. If one did imagine that it meant something, I would think that perhaps the ones who came and left are the ones who ate, and the ones that stayed are the ones being eaten, quite literally in some cases.
A fairly recent little story…
Saturday evening I was with another ex-member I had not seen since we both left the madhouse { AKA Fellowship of Friends, Pathway to Presence (or hell…) }. We were at a party with other people who had no past with the FOF and even though we tried to not always come back to what a trip all those years (have known each other for at least 17 years…), we kept on talking about the odd experience….
Then my friend was reminded of that meeting (about 2-2,5 years ago) where we were all silenced and only reading out of the outrageous interpretations in the form of quotations and looking at mainly art works projected on a wall. Burton was into the caves (meaning prehistoric art…). Next to counting poop in order to show us how the sequence and the four wordless breaths were there for ever, he abused any image with a female body on it. So, here we are, a prehistoric image of a naked female with two large breasts…
And yes, yes… one breast is larger than the other…And then the quotation reads about the Long BE (long breast…) and the Short BE (slightly smaller breast…). My friend and I stared at each other with our eyes wide open, trying desperately but with no result to suppress an outburst of laughter… There was no way back, we kept on laughing like schoolchildren…had to leave the room…
The odd thing is that after that and all the other humiliations we had to undergo during meetings and events and dinners… we kept on trying to understand the non-sense. But that’s another story…
Oh yes, since you are talking about mister B.Y….
My first time I dared express my fear and anxiety about the way things were in the FOF…and to my perception things were getting worse the last years (maybe that’s what everyone says after they finally leave…) was at a meeting with mister B.Y…(I could also never place his reputation as a womanizer, who were the ladies who were going out with him???). He was in a mission to “teach” us about the “new” teaching. We were visiting a nearby center and most of us in the room were trying to make sense of why was he so strict and uncompromising. He did not want us to talk. If you had an angle, he would just let you wait… Before the meeting, a member passed by and waved his hand. B. ignored him and during the meeting he used his gesture to explain how much energy we spend by allowing our “jack of hearts” to manifest.
I was nailed on my chair and seriously wanted to run away. But I took the courage and told him that I was experiencing fear. He of course, responded by telling me that fear and anxiety are part of my lower self and they were unnecessary. Yes, he was not patronizing us at all. It was all my imagination…
As he was a travelling teacher (nice, isn’t it?), I told him after the meeting that his style did not seem that useful to me. Fortunately, there was someone else who commented on it as well and he did send a thank you note after his trip was over.
Boy, we used to pay for all that…
168. Panoritsa – September 7, 2009
‘Boy, we used to pay for all that…’
And pay a lot.
168# Pano,
I remember that visit. I was in tears after the meeting.
The night before we had a center dinner, as I recall women outnumbered men, and I had made a playful comment that BY liked women. He used the comment to lampoon my “false personality” during the dinner.
Man how twisted up it all was, twisted people using passive-aggressive techniques to blame us for their negativity.
Whew!
Oh gosh, Ellen…
I was just reminded of the subject of the meeting… it was “unnecessary talk.” I remember looking at my watch and he was talking for the first 25 minutes of the meeting. Non-stop…But he had so many “interesting” things to say after the Bible studies and the Keys and the his closeness to Burton and Asaf…
166. James Mclemore
In the first line of my post I used the word ‘students’. I remember WhaleRider saying once that it might be much more accurate to avoid that word. I agree and would like to delete the word ‘student’ and replace it with ‘follower’. There is no school, there are no students, there is no teacher.
161 is new
#167 now 168, Pano,
I remember the cave stuff:
In 2007, sometime in the beginning of April, I spent part of the morning reading the blog. I was going to have dinner with some students that weekend and I knew the subject would be brought up, so I had thought I might as well educate myself. This was still page one and I encountered the story from #294. Inner circle facts. After reading that post I spent the rest of the day working with the bizarre, disgusting, “negative imagination” it generated. But it was a Wednesday, a meeting day, so I looked forward to the evening atmosphere of going beyond my “I’s”. Here is what I wrote the next day about that evening:
“Last night we had our first meeting on the prehistorics. I hadn’t read the Thoughts from the Teacher yet, so everything was fresh. Long (but not tedious) angles. Interesting cave drawing images, connected to other images we have already seen, mainly from Egypt. Though the explainations were obviously stretching the point, it was enjoyable seeing and hearing all this out of patterns material. I was content just to be present and have no “I’s”. Then S. began his angle, and P. held up the image which was of a couple having sex, “dog style”. It looked like prehistoric graffiti. At first I thought it was two men, but then Robert began explaining the woman as the nine of hearts, and the man entering her as the steward. The absurdity mounted. I began to laugh, and tried to control myself, so that when it finally broke out into the room it was more of a snort(!). There were five other students there, whose faces turned to me while I struggled to control myself and S. continued reading. Then P. began to laugh, then U., then W. (a newer student), then S., and finally A.. The effort to try to control myself and the absurdity of it all caused tears to run down my cheeks, while S. tried to continue to read. The steward’s arms and legs were long be and short be etc… But then he would break up into uncontrollable laughter, too. Something about “intercourse” and “irrefutable evidence”. I was looking around and taking in impressions, mouth open for big gulps of air. It took a few minutes but we all made it through the angle and our collective fit. After the meeting we spoke about it together, and also later with U. in the night by the car. All I can say is that it produced the third state for the rest of the evening (including the hour and half drive home) in me and in some of the other students who just rode the wave and did not get stuck in the “I’s” about it.”
What I see now two and one half years later is that the shell encompassing my psychological world view was beginning to crack. The absolute ironic absurdity of the teaching contrasted to the behaviour of the Teacher could no longer fit into any category of mind that I could manufacture. And any attempt to do so was also patently absurd, even downright sick. I was reading “I Am That” at the time, receiving pure truths to my spiritually parched throat. About one month later Whalerider’s story #261 hit the blog, and I was toast. I literally could not walk for about a week (my homeopathic remedy takes a nose dive with severe shocks to my immune system). I wrote Girard, I wrote Asaf, sending them WR’s story and began to discover how deep this rabbit hole went. I made a vow to crawl out and bring as many friends with me as I possibly could. I left approximately six months later.
Hi folks.
I have a hard copy version of the petition with signatures attached sitting in a stamped addressed envelope on my desk and am looking for a volunteer to recieve it photocopy it and send it out in the states before it gets more coffee stains on it.
If you are up for it just send me your address to…. contact “at” fourthwaywork.net and I will pop it in the post.
all the best meanwhile.
jack
“…Our cultural preference for processing feelings cognitively instead of feeling them in our bodies tends to contribute to the terrible numbing pain of survivors. They have little or no idea as to how to release the emotions so shrouded in secrecy and buried in the most intimate recesses of their bodies. Nevertheless, some part of them instinctively knows that pain is driving them unconsciously. Sooner of later, the innate drive toward health carries them toward the help they need. Often from families where feelings are not allowed, survivors may have squelched their ability to laugh, cry, and get angry….”
http://www.laughtertherapy.com/Articlebestbetforblues.htm#Article:%20Power%20of%20Laughter
In Ellen’s post, more direct:
1/#294. Inner circle facts:
http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2006/04/16/fellowship-of-friends-a-cult-for-intellectuals/#comment-2560
In Ellen’s post, more direct:
Whalerider’s story 8/#261:
http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2007/04/28/the-fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-8/#comment-9598
One time Susan (Jose’s girlfriend) said, “Is it hard telling who your friends are”?
I didnt say anything because I always look for subtle and other meanings.
The Fellowship of Friends? What friends? More like, “everyman for himself”.
From a Jack of Clubs point of view. I didnt care for that “kissing on the lips” they tried out, and I didnt care for that flashing hand signling a “photograph”. Very distubed people.
Hi, Arthur.
‘Very distubed people?’ I prefer naive, idealistic, confused.
And I remember that meeting (and the very sweet Susan Rxtter.).
And the wise and wry Margaret Lxngstreth. (RIP). She once asked Robert Burton if RF (also RIP) was ‘a damaged machine’ because of his homosexuality. Burton’s response; ‘No dear, think of him as having a dented fender.’
And ‘the little merc’ (our ‘denying force’) – and P. Town-send…
All the best to you!
161
“The suffering, that is, of being made to wear a grubby silk necktie stained with a drop of mustard sauce!”
My gawd man, think of the poor tie- being wrapped around a turd with a semen stain on it!
We Where There (182),
WOW!!
Nige said this blog is read Internationally. My gig at the old folks was an attempt to warn the seedlings. Nothing personal, actually.
I agree with the naive, idealistic and confused statement. Me too in that setting.
And, you are right about sweet Susan. She was/is that.
I remember P-.
Margaret L (RIP) that’s shocking. I liked Margaret and scared to death of her at the same time.
Do you remember Thomas? He died too. So, I was told.
The days of wine and roses, oh well. Peace to You.
my god at last the blog is back on track. I picked it up again a week or so ago when it was in the throws of the elena debate. It’s a relief to see ‘real’ stories emerge and not a hint of back biting rubbish.
I have stories to share myself, but I still have to much fear of the consequences of sharing them. Partly to protect those they involve and partly because I am still shit scared of the fof. (even though I know there is no need). Its been more than a year since I left and I am still at sea. More to follow soon…..
love to all
t
185 tina
I am hoping, as the days go by, that Elena has found some sense of relief at not having to rage at any blogger who disagrees with her or the material she ‘lays open’ on the site. It is always easy to sense our own relief at the state of the blogsite now and how ‘little stories’ are being told and retold and not realise that some, fresh out (say 1-3 years) of the FoF, are still suffering greatly from the way they found themselves treated by the cult.
The whole nature of the current blog is confirmation that it is healthier without Elena.
Hi Tina,
Welcome back. We will look forward to your stories as you feel able to share them.
Hello all. I just e-mailed Jack saying I would do the copying and mailing of the petition–to hear the end of it if for no other reason. I would like that undropped shoe to go away. However, knowing my character defects as I more or less do, I know that if I don’t have specific places to send the petition, it will just sit on my desk instead of Jack’s. Therefore, I would appreciate everyone’s help in suggesting appropriate places to send the petition, complete with addresses, please. Post the places and addresses on the blog, or e-mail them to me at zannoss at yahoo dot com. Please and thank you.
Tina, I can really understand being afraid of the fof – even tho I left so long ago. And I don’t blame you for being wary of sharing memories and stories (but looking forward to yours if and when you do). I’ve shared a couple but won’t share others. But I have to say, reading other’s experiences, however mundane they may appear to be and however small the detail, is so very healing. Actually the details – notepads, ties, etc – somehow hold such vast imagery and worlds.
Dear All,
Yes, what a space for real stories, deeper exchange without fear of being attacked. Thanks all of you and Elena I think of you too.
Tina, welcome back…yes tell you story when you are ready and heal, heal, heal.
Love to all of you and healing. I feel it coming
Tina,
I understand being afraid of the Fellowship. Have you considered using a different name to tell your stories? Many do for similar reasons.
185. tina
The FOF counts on the fear of ex members.
Susan Zannos (188),
Somewhere on this blog is a whole list of interesting places to send the petition.
I think it was X-ray that listed them, twice I think. Maybe two or three pages back. And, I believe somebody has already sent a few out. It seems they did?
More memories please:
People that left a long time ago and the recent ones will have memories that will last forever. What was that about changing your relationship to an idea? How about changing your relationship to a memory?
I was staying at the Lake street apartment when an incident happened. I was then asked to meet with Chucklehead Haven who ordered me over to the 10 ave. house. I met Chucklehead who noticed my twice hand me down high alchemy sweater and says, “It looks like you have had money? We’ll hold the door open for you for a $2,500.00 reenter fee”. And. something about not sleeping in the parts and having 24 hours to leave the premises.
The next day over the phone he says, “are you still here”? Chuckle, chuckle.
Chucklehead I’ve still never had $2,500.00 to my name.
I’m sorry , somebody asked me to go the the 10th ave. house can’t recall who. And, it should be, “about not sleeping in the parks”. Not parts.
Somebody at the Lake street apartment slammed the window down hard behind the living room couch. It was either Luke, Anthony or Theresa.
The next weekend Luke says, “Chucklehead called for you and he never calls anybody”. And, something about, “I know what’s going on around here”.
Well, something else must have been going on besides me, now that I think about, I wonder?
Hello Tina ☺
Fear and manipulation were and are the main tools of the FOF. As the days pass, I become myself more and daring to trust my own perceptions has brought many fruits.
I think coming out with one’s name (or close to it…) strengthens one. There might be reasons many choose to remain anonymous, but I also think that the way the FOF operates, they might even have a few people “on salary” trying to figure out who is who. Look at the hours they have spent trying to alter the info on wikipedia. Small-minded, suspicious (in a conscious way of course…), and soooo many interests at stake…
Our stories, your stories, their stories… all of them together shape one’s face, one’s voice, one’s memories and life…It is important we tell our stories. Our narratives are no less than any structured book or old tale…They are powerful and they are ours…And that in itself might appear a bit scary…but only in the beginning…
188. Susan Zannos – September 8, 2009
———————————————————
FBI
https://tips.fbi.gov/
IRS
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=106778,00.html
Franchise Tax Board
https://webapp.ftb.ca.gov/informantdb/selection.aspx?Lang=en-US
INS
http://www.immigrationdirect.com/uscitizenship-contact.jsp
Department of Justice
Office of the Attorney General, State of California
Office of Victims’ Services
http://ag.ca.gov/victimservices/contact.php
U.S. Department of Labor
http://www.osha.gov/pls/osha7/ecomplaintform.html
Child Abuse
Childhelp’s National Child Abuse Hotline
800-4-A-CHILD (800-422-4453)
Office of the Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
http://gov.ca.gov/interact#email
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
Phone: 916-445-2841
Fax: 916-558-3160 ( new number )
ICSA – International Cultic Studies Association
P.O. Box 2265
Bonita Springs, FL 34133
Phone: 239.514.3081
Fax: 305.393.8193
e-mail: mail@icsamail.
cbs5news
http://cbs5.com/
KNBCnews
http://www.knbc.com/contactus/index.html
KCRA 3 Television
http://www.kcra.com/station/1843006/detail.html
FOXnews
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html
———————————————————
Thank you Susan
185. tina – September 7, 2009
Tina,
What can they do to you? Sue you for your truth?
They are the ones who should be shaken, not you.
188. Susan Zannos – September 8, 2009
Susan,
I just re-posted list. It’s in moderator’s filter. Look for newly moderated comments now.
Wouldn’t You Like To Know has stories to tell and they will be told someday. Many will be somewhat unbelievable, like they happened in a parallel universe far, far away, yet true shall they be.
They will be told without sensationalism; just straight forward truths, as they were witnessed, so help me God, They will be told in a Hans Christian Andersen-esque way. Whether they be fairy tales, or not, will be up to the readers to decide. They will have to be told that way since, otherwise, they will be hard to believe.
You know that large body of water along Rice’s Crossing Road in Oregon House on the Fellowship of Friends property – the one once called Whitman Pond – at the bottom of the, once upon a time, Shakespeare Meadow where the heritage oak called Goethe Oak grew – well in an Andersenian (can’t decide on which sounds right to use by wordsmithing) way, that pond is a giant
truth-seeing eye that has witnessed all that has happened in that Oregon House, California, place, vicariously called The Farm, The Ranch, Mount Carmel, Renaissance, Apollo, Isis, and again Apollo, and possibly other names over the years. It saw what, no one was supposed to see, nor could stand to see, happened behind closed doors and in the dark places as well as what happened out in the open and public and in the light places – just like The Shadow in Hans Christian Andersen’s story of that name. Go and read it.
It’s view was not limited by space nor time. It could see far and wide into the lives of the people that passed that way and what they did with their lives. Like much of the waters of that terrain, and the irrigation ditch that passes through that environ, flowing down to this pond, so do the memories flow to the truth-seeing eye that goes unblinking. Thence it flows down to the ‘C’ touching everyone and no one, at the same time.
197 has the list Susan Z was asking about
189. DXP
But I have to say, reading other’s experiences, however mundane they may appear to be and however small the detail, is so very healing.
Yes, the sordid tales of sexual abuse have pretty much been told on the blog over the last 2 years. The “mundane” stories told lately have been much less important or interesting I agree. How about some tasty stories from the former enablers, accountants, center directors and other well-meaning “inner-circle” students who supported the financial schemes and machinations that fueled Bob’s dirty tricks behind the closed doors of his bed chamber. You know who your are I am sure.
Tina.
I feel a very good quote from Ton’s last post is worth repeating.
“…Our cultural preference for processing feelings cognitively instead of feeling them in our bodies tends to contribute to the terrible numbing pain of survivors. They have little or no idea as to how to release the emotions so shrouded in secrecy and buried in the most intimate recesses of their bodies.”
Our conditioning – and the fellowship was in no wise different – is about processing feelings cognitively. Our real need to is to feel our feelings (and think our thoughts) within a constant sense of our own bodies. Then we are living in real time.
What has been described recently – the behaviour of BY and AL and of course RB – is simply unconscious behaviour. Men like AL and BY obviously conceal a purpose rather different from what their function as senior students shows on the outside, and from what their positions of authority within the organisation would normally lead you to expect. At the very least, their purpose is confused. Whether to offer support in some kind of evolutionary process, or simply to seduce young girls, women or heterosexual men. They can’t be trusted because they can’t trust themselves.
The “emotions so shrouded in secrecy and buried in the most intimate recesses of their bodies” mean that this is not possible. There is an agenda, and its one the FoF as an institution protects.
Strange, isn’t it? That an organisation supposedly built for awakening and change is really based on something quite ridiculously personal, something that stubbornly refuses to change, and is always waiting for an opportunity to claim new victims?
Hi Folks
I would just like to comment that we are after “snail mail” addresses to send to susan as the supplied e-mail addresses didnt work too well when I sent them a digital copy a few times.
best of luck to all.
Jack
81/202. Crouching Tiger:
This is what is called: Hidden Agenda. Sometimes: Bait and Switch. Both could be considered characteristics of False Personality. Welcome to Dogpatch
201 Dr.Pangloss
Yes, the sordid tales of sexual abuse have pretty much been told on the blog over the last 2 years. The “mundane” stories told lately have been much less important or interesting I agree. How about some tasty stories from the former enablers, accountants, center directors and other well-meaning “inner-circle” students who supported the financial schemes and machinations that fueled Bob’s dirty tricks behind the closed doors of his bed chamber. You know who your are I am sure
————————
Dr. Pangloss, the “third” kind of stories from former enablers are probably some of the reasons keeping the FOF institution still running.It takes quite a bit of courage to come forward and admit of having broken the law while being under the influence of RB’s demands.
The “mundane” stories are very important. I like to call them the “inner stories” of me, of us; these stories can show how once upon a time we were hypnotized and rendered open to all kind of abuse.
We even learned to bypass our conscience to lure others into the FOF trap.
The key enablers started somewhere here. But they keep silent.
I do not wish to attack them, I would like to know their stories.
To whomever sent me two e-mails: I do not normally avoid answering people. However, I do not recognize your “imprint” this being the age of Homeland security. I was spooked when the FBI invited me for fingerprinting on April 15th. I’m not only cautious but also paranoid now days. And, it didnt help my anxieties that a motorcycle cop was parked in front of my house and two cop cars parked across the street. My house maiden (age 16) called and said, “Arthur are you paraoid yet? There’s cops in front”. Then I open up your E-mail.
I know the people you asked about but dont know where they are or if they are still live. The only boyfriend that I know T.M. had was W.
Sorry, but Sometimes I wonder if the Fellowship of Friends didnt send the FBI as a lark?
205. veramente
“the “third” kind of stories from former enablers…”
Don’t hold your breath.
Dr. P “The “mundane” stories told lately have been much less important or interesting I agree.” I didn’t mean that. I’m not rating stories on some “important” scale. All stories are important. And, hopefully, stories lead to more stories.
The stories are the best part.
Recently I met an old friend in Oregon House whom I did not see since I left. He told me that I have been a very bad girl, that he read what I write here and other people have told him. He said that I should not digest my life experiences on the blog, because it is a negative place and I must do it with friends, because I don’t know who is watching. I must tell that I was scared for a few days and confused, I even cried. But… whoever is reading or watching, why do I have to be afraid? Do people who make TV shows, articles, write books – do they know who is watching? Do they care? I think it is important to voice one’s truth. The only wrong thing can happen is that some old FOF member will meet you and confront you. But so what?
On the subject of BY. My good friend in NY told me how BY raped her. Some stories are hard to tell.
I for one am glad you are here, telling your stories. They are so sad and so full of pain, but I am glad you are here telling them anyway.
Off Subject: But if the e-mailer is telling the truth then I recognize who it is. I saw him one night at a night club sitting on a couch between two women playing tooties with their feet.
208. DXP
I understand. I used your quote as a jumping off point for some thoughts I had. The mundane stories are very good in illuminating the ridiculous truth about our daily lives in FOF and around ridiculous Bob. It’s good to be able to laugh at some of the shit we bought into. It thinks so!
205. veramente
There is much that can be told that was not illegal. The reason certain people were chosen by Bob for key positions of authority, whether as center directors or ranch manager or whatever, was that he saw that they would serve him loyally and fulfill his needs in a particular area. So a person who would be good at driving him around NY or buying his fancy underwear in Milan was often given the job of center director. I would guess the center directors in the eastern Europe centers were chosen for their sharp eye for “talent”. He seemed to prefer low-maintenance leaders who didn’t need to disturb him every time they had a decision to make. I think center directors were given quite a bit of leeway in making decisions that effected individuals lives. Generally, I am sure those directors thought they were fulfilling the will of the teacher. Maybe those ex-members would benefit from seeing this aspect of their careers in FOF. Sharing stories here might help all those involved to understand both sides of the coin.
Well, alrighty then, Bruce. (207) That would be me in the “enabling” category. Travelling teacher, center director, both on a fairly regular basis for a disgustingly long time. Whatthehell, man, I was creating a soul and about to save humanity by the somewhat circuitous method of becoming conscious and joining the 200 conscious beings who could save the earth, so obviously the ends justified the means. No doubt in terms of legalities the most interesting activity was international smuggling. Whenever going back and forth from foreign climes to command central in Northern California, there would inevitably be a little something or other to squirrel away in the bottom of a suitcase: usually fairly large sums of money from accumulated foreign teaching payments (sometimes it would have been a year since a willing courier had been to a particular center), occasionally
small antiques or pieces of jewelry that Robert wanted brought to him
(without paying duty, of course), a couple of times even a supply of his
favorite European yogurt. I can’t claim to be all bent out of shape with remorse about this activity, since I do not hold the laws of my native
country in particularly high regard, although they have certainly edged into
a higher status than the practices of the Fellowship. The stories of
betrayal–and I’ll recount a couple of them perhaps–in which I was a
willing part of Robert’s white slave operation, those are quite another matter. I really hope those fire and brimstone and burning lakes tales are
not accurate.
204 I’ll never tell
LOL!!! Nailed it!
As center directors my husband and I were given the task of stealing antiquarian books from libraries. This was when Robert was first developing his taste in the handbound art. It created a clear memory for me being asked to do it. At first it clashed against my sense of right and wrong, then there arose a feeling of belonging! ” Doing something for the teacher”, It required Intentional insincerity and conscious acting!…….Besides, life people in libraries aren’t reading Goethe anymore……It was OUR 3rd state that really mattered……
Attention shipmates: There is a stowaway (or not) on board the USS Blog lurking and reading.
I use seafaring language because of his words. References to sinking ship and not the FOF.
He Lambasted me and YOU who write. Boy, did he ever. He reminds me of Itswinetime. Blast FOF and the Blog at the same time.
Well, old man, my complaining aint real there is no negative emotions involved. And, my search for “higher consciousness” was over a long time ago. If I’m into anything it’s plant life. Some people are into saving stamps and flying boats, you know, different strokes for different folks.
And also, why dont come on the blog and expose yourself while banging on people? I’ll welcome you!
Sorry, I am sharing a computer right now. Postings 217 and 162 should read silentpurr.
Is Greg’s first or middle name Steven?
216/noagenda
Thanks for sharing this appalling story. Can you be specific about how the task was given, by whom, by what means, etc.?
Dr. Pangloss says: <>.
Your judging faculties are right on, it is why Robert had to move away from the system–too many contradictions with the Gurdjieff-Ouspensky tradition.
It was amazing my last time at Apollo, when I first clearly saw that Robert was using the system for control, not liberation. There were a number of people that I considered friends, and it didn’t seem right to leave Oregon House without speaking with them about my “new verifications” (I had resigned as regional coordinator because I did not feel Robert was any longer teaching the 4th Way). All of them, Goodwin, Mott, Ben Mami–all said, like a mechanical recording, that it was my instinctive center taking me out of the Fellowship. I was about to lose my entire social and employment network, and be kicked out of the Manhattan teaching house, effectively homeless, and these people, all more or less dependent upon Robert for their lifestyle, dared to say that I was in thrall of the King of Clubs. They were grasping at straws, surely sensing my determination and so using the harshest language available to them to make me reconsider. It was funny that they not only were repeating “tapes” that they had obviously heard and said before, but that the “tape” itself was a willful reversal of the Fourth Way’s theory of the lower centers.
As far as stories of the “third kind” (that of previous collaborators), that is not going to happen. The kind of person who would criminally collaborate with Robert would either still be a member, benefiting from the Fellowship, or using the criminal acts as blackmail if they did leave (or be on to the next con). I knew more than a few followers (the Hienrichs, others out now who need not be named) who paid minimal teaching payments and no winery donations, but were considered full members. Those folks knew where the bodies were buried, so to speak, and would never have been asked to leave just because they weren’t paying: they were providing legitimacy, as “older students.”
I was only regional coordinator for a few months and the numbers on the East Coast were declining anyway…I wish I had some good stories but nothing controversial, besides a chair-defenestration in a domestic spat, ever really developed. Thank you Susan for reminding us of all the petty crimes Robert asked us to commit, if you multiply them across all the centers they really add up.
walter.tanner@gmail.com
Damn HTML, what Pangloss said was:
In other words, it is the “lower self”, the “king of clubs” that keeps so many members in. Can’t quite leave the watering hole, even if the water is polluted and infected. I’m not judging, I just find it ironic that this is what it comes to after all those years of working to guided by the “steward” and “king of hearts”.
Venezuela to Export Men
Oregon House (URP!) – Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, sitting atop vast reserves of young unemployed men, recently sealed an agreement with Robert E. Burton, the elderly gay cult leader of the Fellowship of Friends, AKA Pathway to Penises, for an undisclosed amount of cash to export 100 young men to Oregon House, California in time for the holidays, state-controlled TV reported Monday.
Analysts say that due to the recent drop in the price of human life, Chavez is forced to take drastic measures with other such despots to ensure his iron-clad, unquestioned, authoritarian rule in the flesh-rich Latin American nation.
The deal would give Burton a nice cushion if ex-followers carry out threats to stem the victim flow into Burton’s so-called “Homosexual Octave”. With FOF membership in North America dwindling, the ex-follower’s strategy of full disclosure of the cult’s practices seems to having its desired effect.
TEST AFTER INTERNET CLEAN
Whalerider wrote:
“Chavez is forced to take drastic measures with other such despots to ensure his iron-clad, unquestioned, authoritarian rule in the flesh-rich Latin American nation.”
I realise that your message is written with humorous intent, but we should remember that Chavez is a popular and democratically elected leader. Fox News and other right-wing sources have been in the practice of referring to him as a dictator, and Pat Robertson (leader of another religious cult) has called for his assasination, but do we want to line up with Fox and Robertson? Echoing their lies can only hurt the credibility of the blog.
Man Number Zero:
Thanks for your feedback. I don’t think that’s grounds for revoking my poetic license, though. My sincere apologies if I have offended you.
You are aware that 2 years ago Mr. Chavez, a former military leader, abolished term limits to his presidency, no? Sure, he was democratically elected into office…how he maintains power is a different story…my point is: “absolute power corrupts absolutely”…whether it’s a church or a country. Hey, if the guy isn’t abusing the power granted to him by the people, he’s alright in my book. But Chavez isn’t the subject of my satire, is he?
Hmmm…maybe we ought to send the petition to Pat Robertson…
In 227, WhaleRider wrote:
“You are aware that 2 years ago Mr. Chavez, a former military leader, abolished term limits to his presidency, no?”
Well, no. In 2007 he put forward a referendum proposing that he be allowed to run for election again, and he LOST that referendum, 49 to 51. This February he put the question to the people again, and this time they said OK, he’s allowed to run for office a third time — not to stay in office without an election, just to put himself forward for possible re-election, just as the US allowed Roosevelt to run a third time in 1940 and a fourth in 1944.
But, as you say, Chavez wasn’t the subject of your satire, so please go ahead exercising your poetic license on RB…. and perhaps we SHOULD send the petition to the Reverend Robertson — he might be glad to eliminate some competition.
210. Tatyana – September 8, 2009
‘Recently I met an old friend in Oregon House whom I did not see since I left. He told me that I have been a very bad girl, that he read what I write here and other people have told him. He said that I should not digest my life experiences on the blog, because it is a negative place and I must do it with friends, because I don’t know who is watching. I must tell that I was scared for a few days and confused, I even cried. But… whoever is reading or watching, why do I have to be afraid? Do people who make TV shows, articles, write books – do they know who is watching? Do they care? I think it is important to voice one’s truth. The only wrong thing can happen is that some old FOF member will meet you and confront you. But so what?
On the subject of BY. My good friend in NY told me how BY raped her. Some stories are hard to tell.’
What ??? He RAPED her??? This bag of shit went to NY as traveling teacher and this is the teaching he brought there?
What a fucking nest of criminals this Fellowship of Friends.
Tatyana,
I am surprised how after all what happened to you there, you still get so easily suggestible and confused.
Your ‘old friend’ is an asshole, and that should be the only conclusion after your conversation.
Man Number Zero:
Thank you, you are right, my mistake, it was only last February that Chavez won his bid to end term limits…that were set prior to his taking office.
The US “allowed” Roosevelt to be re-elected for a fourth term, (which he barely served before he died), because up to that point there were no formal/legal term limits for US Presidents; they were only set afterward in 1951, due in part to his sudden death.
If Burton had to be elected and then re-elected for each term as president of the Fellowship, I wonder what percentage of his followers would vote for him?…he’s such a popular guy…among his followers. But then again, what choice do really they have?
210. Tatyana
your “friend” is no asshole but a brainwashed, wet rabbit suffering from repression, fear and the illusion to have a power over ex-members by telling the old FOF jam.
Presently the Republic Party seems to be existing under the same influences that have controled the conditions of the FOF all these years, DEEP SLEEP!!!! And is Glenn Beck still a student?
I think Robert will probably evade capture. He has had years off planning and practice. He’s learned how to be in’life’ and to not appear too flakey.Some of us can see that Robert Burton is a very sick individual and capable of committing crime. I am certain that his LIFE associates have no idea with whom they are dealing.They have no idea!
Views from the real world?
I showed the video of RB’s meeting to a friend of mine who have never been in FOF, but was asking about it. I was curious to see how he would react to what for me is still hard to see clearly.
My friend watched it very carefully for about 10 minutes and after said: “OK, now it is enough!” I asked what did he see. He said that he saw that Robert with the weird eyes saying things that do not make sense except some that are aimed to please people in the room, exactly what they want to hear.
He also commented: “The Gods don’t care about you if you are not present? What a nonsense!”
Poor sleeping machine, ah?
He has had years OF planning and practice, Thanks to all of us!
233. silentpurr
“He’s learned how to be in’life’ and to not appear too flakey.”
“I am certain that his LIFE associates have no idea with whom they are dealing.”
You’re wrong on this one. They see him coming a mile away, with the money signs in his eyes. He’s always been ridiculed in “life” by the very people he thinks he’s scamming. They know he’s a flaming guru fruit just by his ridiculous entourage and absurd and obvious affectations. Life is not so stupid to NOT take his money, but be under no illusion ( the fof illusion) that he’s swishing through life invisibly. He’s the very visible boil on the ass of humanity.
233. silentpurr
It’s only the members and still indoctrinated ex-members that think the world sees him like he wants to be seen. It’s the illegality of him and the FOF that’s evaded justice (justice…a one word oxymoron).
Then why is it so difficult to attract the attention of the authorities?
Bruce, are you saying that ex students may still be indoctrinated?
238/silentpurr
Then why is it so difficult to attract the attention of the authorities?
It’s easy to attract the attention of the authorities. All you need is direct evidence of serious recent criminal wrongdoing, i.e., a first-hand account of a credible witness.
240. For example?
Strange all these stories…never knew about money transferring to the centers or his favorite yoghurt or, BY raping (hopefully only) one women!
The story coming up now is RM and AJ former AM going through Oregon to smuggle in to water buffalo’s into California. Sounded like an adventure at that time. Now…all for RB, if he had nothing else to do then to care for water buffalo’s.
John E who became sick with Parkinson disease. One day I had John on the phone and asked how he was doing. He said: “Robert had told him the disease/ suffering would give him a permanence in awakening”…….(I am getting nauseated). Never RB was financial support given by RB.
240…
All the people I heard with their stories are not willing to go to the authorities. All these men are filth with sadness/ deep pain/ guilt/ amazement of what happened to them. Some of imitating/ followed RB footsteps.
After M-h left the fof I asked him if he was sorry to be involved in “hurting” so many students. His answer at that time was: “I do not feel any sorry nor guilt as at that time I was not aware of what was going on”.
This scares me a lot and I wonder what unexpressed feeling of guilt/ suppressed feeling of regret and unawareness in this matter do to people. Maybe it covers up the need to survive and stay on the level of satisfying basic needs? Maybe living too much in your earthy element? signs of unbalanced as human being? I am wondering and appreciate some more info, so I can understand people who are so earthy, like Robert Burton, who is just filling his primary needs of sex, money, food and numbing medicine like darvon, valium etc ?
“are you saying that ex students may still be indoctrinated?”
Indoctrination is not something that simply goes away at the moment someone stops writing checks. It takes different amounts of time for different people to shed the cult-think.
The FOF fits the profile of all cults in that even people who leave (and even those who are often willing to criticize the cult) sometimes can’t bring themselves to see the entire truth about it or to accept all of the criticisms they hear. People invested a lot of time, money, and their hearts into these groups (including the fof), and they don’t always drop those feelings immediately. Some do, some don’t.
This blog is partly a record of how indoctrination doesn’t just disappear after leaving the FOF. Numerous former followers have dropped in to downplay — intentionally or unintentionally — the extent of Burton’s sociopathic behavior. With or without articulating this directly, many of these attitudes toward Burton and the FOF are in the guise of an old term that a long time ago became one of Burton’s best friends — “relativity.”
Regarding attracting the attention of the authorities — we don’t know that the FOF hasn’t attracted their attention. I guess you’re referring to no direct action being taken. I think that’s a good question, but it’s not because Burton appears normal to anyone. (understatement).
243. Another Name – September 9, 2009
” His answer at that time was: “I do not feel any sorry nor guilt as at that time I was not aware of what was going on”.”
Give me a fucking break.
244. Agent 007
Yes. Exactly.
Elena sent her blog address for anyone interested and specifically for Old FOF and for Ames
http://battlesword.blogspot.com
Why are so few ex students unwilling to sign the petition?
Bruce, there where Some of us that had no idea of what was going on! This is why I am surprised to see so little action on the part of present ‘students’. Everybody MUST know what they are getting into by now!
Before, secrets could be kept…..When I learned about RB’s abuse of student’s, it felt as though as though the top of my head had exploded!
I knew right then that I had to leave!
249. silentpurr
I would venture to guess that many of the people who joined in the 70’s and 80’s would never have joined in the 90’s and later. It became such a circus that it required a completely different pool of prospective students, a la Eastern Europe etc. The early people generally joined because of their own research into “the 4th Way” et al. One doesn’t find a strata of US people seeking out a flamboyant queen with an insatiable thirst for little boys. It’s different now. Someone from Romania doesn’t generally ruminate about how close RB is to Gurdjieff, more likely they ruminate about how often one would have to partake in the orgies in order to accumulate gravitas and power in the FOF, so as to be able to exploit others.
241/Tatyana
For example?
Imagine a bookkeeper of a nonprofit organization who comes forward to the IRS to say he was directed by higher-ups in the organization to not account for millions of dollars in cash coming into the United States in the bottom of a suitcase. He has direct knowledge of something which violates the law. He knows who carried the cash, how much cash there was, personally witnessed the transfer of the cash, and was directed not to account for it in the books of the organization. That’s an example of direct evidence of something which is probably criminal wrongdoing.
Another example would be someone who heard direct instructions from an official of a church to church members directing them to steal valuable materials from libraries and museums and send the stolen items to the church. Bonus points if the person witnessed someone else who performed the action.
A further example would be someone who received specific directions to lie to federal immigration and customs authorities about, say, a fraudulent marriage, or to conceal expensive baubles or artwork or antiquities coming into the United States.
Are you saying that the present body of “students” are generally happy with RB and his “teaching”?
Why should we bother trying to help people who don’t wish to be helped?
It is interesting to think that all of efforts that we and others made. I’m not saying that those efforts were made in vain or in sleep.Alot of probably was…. Just that it was a very great disappointment to realize Robert was such a sick bastard! At least today, thanks to this blog prospective students can be forewarned.
The FOF was especially hard on families with children.
251. Jomo Piñata
Another example would be the use of the California resale number of the FOF gift store to avoid paying sales tax on items purchased by Bob that never were resold at the gift shop.
251. Jomo Piñata
But wouldn’t be like turning themselves in? “Hello, I am fraudulently married and I would like to sue Robert Burton”?
I vividly remember Anna’s earlier accounts on the blog, how RB smelled of sperm when he finally showed up for a breakfast or dinner.
It triggered of a memory of a brunch at the Galleria, RB was almost half an hour late, I had been standing in front of the chair with my name on it for eons, Finally RB walked in, he looked like he had just been to hell and back, ashen, exhausted, with a weird energy.
In no time the brunch was over, nothing of interest was discussed,
I felt short-changed, a nuisance, something RB had to put up with.
Year 1982, I can remember clearly walking down the hill from the Lincoln Lodge, exhausted from hours of ironing linens and realizing that the fellowship was really just “all about Bob”, if you will. And I imagined that in the end he would thank us all for the very nice life we had provided him.Just as a Queen Bee might thank her workers bees. . I am so happy that I escaped when I did!
252. silentpurr
“Are you saying that the present body of “students” are generally happy with RB and his “teaching”?”
No, not at all. I’m saying they generally come from a different “pool”. I wasn’t there later so I can’t surmise how they feel about it now. But I can tell you there were not many “then” who would have joined or re-joined in recent years. There are exceptions. My ex-wife re-joined in the last ten years. And there are quite a few people from the 70’s who are still there. Other than economic and neurotic reasons I won’t even venture a guess why they’re still there.
And there are probably a number of people who are on the periphery of the crime who are sheltered from the truth. That’s where the blog comes in. It doesn’t matter how many there are in the core true believers. They’re not the ones financially keeping the FOF afloat. Enough of them leave and the FOF becomes a shadow of itself. A rotting cadaver.
243. Another Name – September 9, 2009
‘After M-h left the fof I asked him if he was sorry to be involved in “hurting” so many students. His answer at that time was: “I do not feel any sorry nor guilt as at that time I was not aware of what was going on
Just look at his face. Do you feel like he can feel any thing at all?
He knew very well what was going on.
When he was offering a vouchers for the meetings and the teaching dinners to a married women in exchange for sex, was he not aware of his wrongdoing?
Does it take to be a genius to be aware of an immoral and unethical behavior?
What else he can say in his defense? Of course ‘I didn’t know, I didn’t see’. That’s what criminals are saying when they getting caught.
243 Another name
‘After M-h left the fof I asked him if he was sorry to be involved in “hurting” so many students. His answer at that time was: “I do not feel any sorry nor guilt as at that time I was not aware of what was going on
——————————
No sorry, no guilt, the past is past? That is a very egocentric answer, a washing of hands since at the time he was unaware?
I do not know M-h, but he does not seem too earthy unless you are defining that as being selfish and attending to his needs only?.
He may explode someday when his conscience will suddenly come up to the surface.Or he may go on, get married to a beautiful woman , have kids, and even go to church, but inside….
259. veramente – September 10, 2009
‘He may explode someday when his conscience will suddenly come up to the surface.’
I know him and doubt that.
254/Tatyana
But wouldn’t be like turning themselves in? “Hello, I am fraudulently married and I would like to sue Robert Burton”?
It has nothing to do with suing anybody. Reporting a crime to law enforcement authorities is something completely different from a private lawsuit. But the answer to your question is, if someone participated in a serious crime and then came forward to report it, yes, they would be implicating themselves in the crime.
Yes Jomo well put…that was the trick in the fof. Somehow we all got involved in doing things that were against laws. Marying for a greencard, not be to clear on taxes, getting some medication for Robert…giving our discount in the store where students were working so he could buy silk shirts, shoes , watches with 40 50% of or building without permits etc , etc, etc. Smuggling goods. Having sex against our inner voices and thinking we were cool. What else…I do not know much about the financial issues. Encourage us to use credicards/ file for bankrupty…abortions?
He had a hunch for getting you/ us in involved in the mess too.
What regrets and pain realizing these issue. Aaaaah will it ever stop..
It’s not “I didn’t know what was going on”. That’s a lie. It’s simply sociopathy, which rules out an honest self assessment, regret, responsibility etc. One just moves on to the next group to exploit. It’s an emotional zombie, without the emotions.
263 brucelevy
chilling…emotional zombies.
—————————————
261 JP
if someone participated in a serious crime and then came forward to report it, yes, they would be implicating themselves in the crime.
—————-
and for former FOF member-s who was-were covering up money resources to admit this to authorities today, would this person-s suffer very serious life altering consequences?
264/veramente
I don’t know.
264/
veramente
for former FOF member-s who was-were covering up money resources to admit this to authorities today, would this person-s suffer very serious life altering consequences?
265. Jomo Piñata –
I don’t know.
—————
Who would know then? a lawyer.
Could someone with this type of training or knowledge come forward to speak about the above possibility here on the blog?
What would be the implications for former FOF members who helped RB a great deal in covering money assets, lying to the Yuba County, INS, even if this happened years ago?
If I was one of these people, I would be afraid to come forward. But in telling the truth even years later would I be able to soften a possible civil or criminal penalty especially if I came willingly forward to talk about it as a way to wake up the authorities to the ongoing FOF scam?
I am not talking about some cash stashed in the bottom of a suitcase. I am referring to tax evasion on a grand scale.
I also wonder how these former ex members who played a heavy hand in consulting for tax evasion etc., feel today, maybe they are really afraid and are laying as low as possible.
Maybe the IRS would be interested in an anonymous tip. There is no statute of limitations on tax liability and FoF is a bigger fish in this area. (Hey Uncle Sam, they’re ripping you off and laughing in your face). Money is more interesting to the government than morality. As they say: Death & Taxes are a certainty.
veramente (266),
“maybe they are really afraid and are laying low as possible”.
As some folks in Alaska say, “you betcha”.
266/veramente
The decision to prosecute a person for crime rests with the prosecutor. The co-operating witness’s lawyer doesn’t control what the prosecutor decides to do and can’t necessarily even predict it. The decision whether or not to pursue criminal charges can be the subject of deal-making, grants of immunity, etc.
266.
Try to give the prosecutor the biggest fish, you can take responsibility for (you are not obliged to commit kamikaze, be aware of your children, family, friends) and face the result….silence or obtaining money by the prosecutor, who will try to receive the money resources of the FOF (if possible).
I have to giggle at the notion that “something bad could happen” to someone revealing that he or she had broken the law under Fellowship direction. I spent 30 years in the Fellowship aiding and abetting–and now I should worry that something bad might happen? I will testify anyplace to anybody who is interested about anything I did or know of. The worst that could happen has already happened.
271. Susan
Is there anything or anyone who is preventing you from coming forward and testify in front of the proper authority?
3. Ames – the updated official FOF number of members is 1625 as of Aug. 1st 2009. It might include members who left and have not yet been reported and likewise, new members.
The numbers are decreasing, but the flood that started around Nov. 2006 has significantly slowed down.
266. veramente – September 10, 2009
You turn the ‘bigger fish in’, and they let you go, especially if you were doing things under duress.
You can also anonymously call to a sheriff or detective and ask them this question directly.
This question is less for the lawyers and more for the law enforcement, with whom you can make a deal.
266. veramente – September 10, 2009
The Fate of the criminals is in your hands, and you will be supported.
274 X-ray
I am assuming you are using the word YOU not for me.
I am not the one, only a little fish. Just to clarify. : )
on post 273 you said:
“You can also anonymously call to a sheriff or detective and ask them this question directly.
This question is less for the lawyers and more for the law enforcement, with whom you can make a deal.”
as you or anyone tried this method?
as you or anyone tried this method?
meant to say: did you or anyone try this method?
266. veramente – September 10, 2009
The riches people of our time are going to prison for financial crimes.
That is something that government is taking seriously and punishing the evaders without exceptions. They do that because they suffer directly from that.
You can lock Robert Burton in prison for the rest of his life.
p.s. watch for suspicious, possible posts from the ‘shield’. They might try to scare you, so you keep quiet, by attaching you to the crime and imposing on you responsibility for it.
276. veramente – September 10, 2009
It’s unofficial practice used everywhere.
One cannot overlook risks if one testifies against oneself, admitting illegal deeds. It is better that those who are not involved yet can testify, come forward first. Though I have been in the FOF for many years, I have never been exposed to any illegal action that I was aware of. I was working with finances for about three years and as far as I could detect there was nothing unusual or suspicious about it. Things seemed to be handled normally and ledgers were kept quit tidy. If there have been finances that were managed illegally, then someone must have kept it well hidden and in that case, indeed only those who know about it can testify.
For All:
From the publication “Mitakuye Oyasin” of the native American Dr. Allen Ross in 1989:
“The left side of the brain controls logic, linearitiy, reading and writing, time orientation, and masculine expression. The right side of the brain is dominant in instinct, wholism, dance, art, spatiality, and feminine expression. (…) I think Germany is the most left-brained country I ever visited. Clocks hang everywhere, and the Germans really pride themselves with being on time. (…) Wholistic thinking is what is used in traditional ceremonies. (…) we dance our prayers, we sing our prayers, and we use four sacred colors. (…) the right hemisphere is not interested in ‘clock’ time as the left side… Native Americans use a concept called ‘Indian time’. You do something whenever it feels right. That’s my understanding of spatial time orientation.”
————————————-
Do whatever and whenever it feels right for you concerning the FOF and the past in the FOF.
273/X-ray
This question is less for the lawyers and more for the law enforcement, with whom you can make a deal.
What are you talking about? Law enforcement routinely tell criminal suspects lies to get them to divulge things. It’s not law enforcement that cuts deals, it’s prosecutors. Don’t you watch TV?
While living at Renaissance years ago, at the lower house, before the air stream era, RB asked me to take my small daughter to Marysville/Yuba City and apply for foodstamps and benefits. A humiliating experience. He said that it would be good for my ‘vanity’ feature………I think that others were asked to do the same.
When other students began joining with children, we founded the ‘children’s house’. Parents kept their Fellowship work schedules while taking turns minding the children. I was never paid a penny for my work for RB, But was expected to use the gov. money and food stamps to maintain my daughter’s needs.
.
Higher State Farm Insurance Corp. Denies Coverage: Cites Pre-existing Conditions
Oregon House-(URP!) Former members of the Higher State Farm Insurance Corporation’s esoteric “Plan for Paradise” spiritual group insurance plan are filing complaints that they are not getting their money’s worth.
“It’s fraud,” says one former member of 17 years. “They advertise that their exclusive group plan cultivates the higher states necessary to insure your entry into the kingdom of paradise, but once you are a member for awhile then you find out that in fact to actually get into paradise, you have to die first, so who can be sure? One fine day I started asking questions about the testimonials taken from ancient cave paintings they use to support their claims, and they promptly kicked me off the group plan, telling me I had some kind of mental health disorder to ask such silly questions,” she said. “That made me mad, and I told them so. Then the elderly gay founder said that being mad in esoteric language means being crazy, and only insane people get mad. So I got the boot. Basically, it turns out they tell you that you get into paradise only because the brain dead founder of the corporation said so, and that’s it. He’s making millions selling this plan to suckers dumb enough to believe him. And the fortunate suckers who do eventually wise up and leave are then too embarrassed to say anything.”
Steven Dumbfuck, spokesperson for the Corporation denies these accusations, citing pre-existing mental health issues in the ex-group members filing the complaints. “Although we accept just about anyone who can keep their mouth shut, unzip their fly, and make the payments, if they cannot make the payments or develop mental health issues such as Alzheimer’s disease, dementia due to aging, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, psychosis, narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, bad body odor or poor dental hygiene while using our patented Plan for Paradise death-lifestyle enhancing methodology, it’s not our fault; it’s due to pre-existing genetic dispositions which are not covered by our plan and these lose their right to enter paradise. You see, our plan is not for everyone, only the super de duper, really special and incredibly lucky chosen ones. That’s what makes it esoteric.”
281. Jomo Piñata – September 10, 2009
You wrong, Mr. Knowing Еverything.
The deals negotiated with detective who lead the case, before it get to prosecutor.
281. Jomo Piñata – September 10, 2009
BTW, did you sign the petition?
283. X-ray
You’re talking to a lawyer.
282. silentpurr
I once had a similar experience with food-stamps only for real. I left because I exhausted all my financial resources to the last dime while being in the FOF. No one has ever asked me for money because I never had any and during 85% of the time I have been on salary. During these years I fell into the trap of NOT ‘going back to life’. I thought it would be the worst choice I could make. Only the worst choice of course was staying in OH and becoming extremely poor. I still have this anger inside because I allowed myself to arrive to such poverty. Part of it is definitely due the atmosphere in OH, but there were others who took care of themselves very well. So it’s the FOF, but also my belief that I could live there simple life with no money. I know I am not a typical participant of this blog. I do not hate the FOF or RB. I do think that there is a great deal of naivety amongst many students, especially those who are completely broke. I still have good friends there, with whom I keep contacts.
I know: “I know I am not a typical participant of this blog. I do not hate the FOF or RB.”
That’s a straw man. Hate is what followers wish to label this because it makes it easier for them to ignore and continue their enabling of Burton. “Well, that blog there — that’s just hate, you can ignore it.”
Hate is not synonymous with dissent. Dissent is dissent. It’s sometimes eloquent and articulate, sometimes abrupt and severe, sometimes direct and to the point, often angry, and often thoughtful. But whatever your view of what a “typical participant of this blog” might be, what I see here most often is dissent, not hatred.
Regarding your use of the word naivety…
A few years ago I found it helpful to replace that word with other words that could help me take positive actions in my life. Instead of calling it naivety, which seemed to imply good intentions and innocence on my part, I began calling it stupidity. And sleep.
I’m glad you still have friends in the FOF. Maybe you can help them see the value in dissent. Of course, before you can help them see it, you have to see it yourself. But whether you do or don’t see the value in it, one thing is for sure — there ain’t none in the FOF.
I know: “I was working with finances for about three years and as far as I could detect there was nothing unusual or suspicious about it. Things seemed to be handled normally and ledgers were kept quit tidy. If there have been finances that were managed illegally, then someone must have kept it well hidden and in that case, indeed only those who know about it can testify.”
WELL… I’m relieved to hear this. I was concerned about how the money was being handled until I heard your report. Thanks for that. Seems like we have nothing to be concerned about.
284. + 285.
That’s great the BLOG has HIS lawyer!!!
Jomo are you willing to offer glimpses in the “world of justice”?
Are you willing to support those who have usable material for the prosecutor? If yes, your time is precious, what is the consultation priced at?
I think it could be easier to trust Jomo and to tell him the FOF stories (relevant for the prosecutor) because he WAS also in and he keeps always to the point.
Jomo could also act as an independent examining lawyer for the BLOG (if he has got the time).
Just took a look at the petition… 167 names…basically less because there are signatures rejected…
What’s wrong with you people?????
Thousand who left and so few to just request a simple investigation…
My analyst asked me today whether I would sue the Fellowship.. I said no and my next sentence was that there are so many who went through hell there, I was “just” got a bit messed up with all the weird ideas… And yes, wasn’t it my own stupidity that placed me in such a highly restricted environment?
He pointed out to the fact that from a few stories I have shared with him, it seems that the ‘victims” in the FOF turned to “abusers.” Shame and fear for being discovered keeps them at their place and they keep manipulating others. It is not surprising to see that very few dare to just even say something.
That comparison with other people’s stories, pain and hardships does not help one to recover one’s life. Last night our babysitter (no FOF victim…) asked me to read a letter her grandmother had sent to her (she does not speak the language and I do…). She started weeping… mentioned she had not seen her father and grandmother for more than a decade (she is only 24…)… but then she started using “scale and relativity” and saying even though her father has a mental problem, other children have gone through even more horrible situations… It sounded so familiar… and so damn wrong…
… Oh I mean ThousandS who have left…
Last night as I was dancing (modern dancing,should have done it earlier, but I was trying to become couscous…), I had a very wonderful time, something I used to label as “higher centres”… I thought later that what we (some at least) did was that we allowed the organization to claim our beautiful moments… we defined our joy and pleasure and bright light and clarity and concentration and attention… I (shall I just say I?) allowed the FOF to claim MY moments of joy…. I believed they were there because of I was part of the organization, and others kept on telling me about that… and they would not stop…
I am angry about this…
“You have the right to remain silent, anything you say can be used against you”….Now tell us who is the “kingpin” at the fellowship of friends? Tell us that and we’ll say You cooperated and helped us out. And, “They” might help you out.
“If you cannot afford a lawyer one will be appointed for you”.
Correct answer? What are you talking about and where is my lawyer?
283/X-ray
You wrong, Mr. Knowing Еverything.
The deals negotiated with detective who lead the case, before it get to prosecutor.
I don’t know where you got this idea. Maybe Scandinavian criminal justice systems work this way, but not those in the US.
silentprrr, panoritsa, I know:
Thank you for your storiesa nd your willingness to speak about your difficulties. I admire that.
You speak to the fact that the FOF cultivates a trance state of “age regression” known in cult language as ‘being in essence”, in order to become malleable, compliant, and dependent, just like a child. This state paves the way for Burton’s and his corrupt organization to sexually and financially exploit his followers.
The sooner former followers get out of OH and start thinking for yourselves and taking care of yourselves, as Burton has always done, the better off you will beeeeeee.
When I left OH, I had only a suit case and a trunk. I got a Pell Grant due to my dire financial circumstances and finished my college degree. That allowed me to meet people and get grounded. It took time, intention, and effort…something you are not unfamiliar with.
288. Panoritsa – September 11, 2009
Just took a look at the petition… 167 names…basically less because there are signatures rejected…
What’s wrong with you people?????
This sounds like the standard guilt-trip used on members in FOF. I used to hear this kind of crap all the time when I made the decision to stop attending FOF “meetings” during the last 8 years I was a member, not to mention the pressure to attend fund-raising events.
No, I have not signed the petition or do I plan to any time soon. I have my own personal reasons and that is a privilege I have learned to value since freeing myself from the mind-fuck of the FOF code of morality and correct group behavior.
So, please, sign the petition if it makes you feel better about yourself or whatever. Also, try and accept that others who choose not to have legitimate reasons to decide not sign.
283. X-ray
You are a funny guy Mr. Smart in the Pants!
The FOF has operated too long under the illusion they are above the law.
Let’s put our money where our mouth is and shut down the rape factory.
Why don’t we pool our financial resources and offer a big fat juicy reward to anyone who steps forward with information and evidence of the FOF’s wrongdoing?
That’s what the government does.
Pangloss…oops did I step on your toes? Sorry…
You do not have to answer and you do not have to sign…
Signing the petition was a very personal thing to do…
I am just wondering what holds so many people back. For me, it was and still is fear and I do not wish to live like this any more.
We can have a neutral third party administer the fund, set up a Paypal link, and after a certian period of time, if nobody steps forward to blow the whistle, then all the money, plus interest is returned.
Count me in for 1K.
Someone can put up reward flyers in OH and do a mailing.
I bet the person(s) of interest we a looking for with the evidence could probably use the cash.
Dear all
Just sharing.
The blog is so much more relaxing and healing to me to read.
Such a different energy.
Hope to keep this going.
I love the many questions when asked, no answers necessary or they are, for example why are not more people signing the pertition or what did we receive from being in the fellowship of friends.
Just questions…to ask
Another question: Why is it when you google fellowship of friends, apollo appears first and the blog #6?
Anything we can do to change this around?
Thanks all for being here.
Some of us joined the Fellowship because were seeking learn more about ourselves and the 4th way ideas that attracted us. Many came through bookmarks. We read a book and wanted more…….The bookmark was there, the people were great……. When I first met the ‘teacher’ I thought him odd. But Bon–a, the student teacher and all of Robert’s entourage set the precedence by treating Robert with the greatest of care. I didn’t realize that he saw ‘children as ‘the unnecessary suffering for others’ until I was under his thrall. The fellowship was not friendly towards children.Robert has been mad from the beginning and It sounded like wisdom when he would remind us that he ‘became Conscious by doing everything that my teacher told me to do’ I KNOW that this is the REASON that many of us went against our better judgment! It does seem that he has used the common resources of something that we ALL helped to create as his own little thiefdom.The elephant in the room has always been, from the very beginning that RB was not and is not teaching the 4th Way.Burtonism, as it’s now called, is Robert’s broken toy/tool.
– Panoritsa, You, and the rest of us who joined and stayed in the Fellowship Of Friends came in good faith. That is, we trusted that Robert and those who assisted him were as decent and honorable as Gurdjieff and Ouspensky ,Collin, Nicoll etc. – There is no scandal around these men!And Remember, (Gurdjieff returned the borrowed jewelry!) AND helped to save lives! Participating as a co-director I ‘helped’ many sincere seekers join and become students, and I know that some of them ended up in his terrible maw. We ALL did our bit….. But now, by ignoring the call of the petition we are merely playing the part of the ones throughout history who choose not to see the TRUTH. Was that your play IN the Fellowship as well as OUT?
283, 288, 289, 295
New Page