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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 80 August 24, 2009

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. nige - August 24, 2009

I feel this post, from last page, may have been missed by the fact that it had to be declared ‘as new’ and deserves to be re-iterated on this page…

268. Old FOF – August 23, 2009
Dear Fofblogmoderator and visitors,

I’m a long time PAST poster and long time lurker who has felt impelled to delurk for a bit here. Perhaps this is a time to note that despite the length of this post, after earlier having said my peace, it has seemed to me that fewer syllables per idea per day is generally a good thing – been living by this code. BTW, in my experience with other blogs – only about 10% of viewers are active. This blog may have a much bigger impact than people have more recently expressed.

1). I’m with Ames from a bunch a posts ago when he articulated several possible aims for the blog, the LEAST and last being – the rant. (and his new recent posts)
It seems to me that the blog has done a lot of good – as evidenced by the posters here that note that they left the Fellowship of Friends a few months back, etc. In this regard, the emotional abusers of this space – do a high disservice to the people that they claim to want to help.
Consequently, I think that Elena ought to be banned for good from posting – as though her intentions may be decent, the effects of her emotional inappropriateness (and damage), and ongoing drama and space-taking are highly destructive and diluting in the balance. The difference in the tone of the blog when she was recently gone – as compared to now might be a particular case in point.
Also, for what it’s worth, I think that Nigel’s posts-limit should be one reasonably lengthed post per day. He’s a good fellow and has an admirable insight into himself and often strikes a high emotional tone – but there might/ought to be an imposed limit for the benefit of someone who is clearly well-intentioned but that at times cannot limit themselves.

2). I may have previously mentioned (thousands of posts back) a book that was very helpful to me on leaving the Fellowship after twenty years. On recall, it was entitled “Strange Gods” and was written by two psychologists or psychiatrists. Trying to find it just now on Amazon – could find similar titles but was unable to ascertain that any were the exact book. In large part this book is a study of possible long-term damage to ex-cult members including those from at least three disparate cults including the Moonies, etc. There were any number of points in this book that helped me.
ONE, (and most importantly) it helped me see better then that the Fellowship was a cult. ALSO, they made a compelling case that Brand X religions with charismatic leaders (most would be defined as cults) have been with humanity as far back as we can know. In the United States this phenomenon that includes the Fellowship of Friends did not start with the 60s – but all the way back – including sects of Lutherans, protestants of all denominations, Oneida, Shakers, and so forth and so on. FINALLY, their study of the psyches and physical well-being of ex-cult members mirrored my own tentative internal observations and conclusions – that unfortunately for a number of years I was somewhat in a position to see. And that was that the harm by the Fellowship was distributed almost in a “bell-shaped” manner – that some members appeared to be DEEPLY harmed by their experience (thinking of those such as Brixn Sixler and Kexin Kxlly), some appeared to be helped by their experience, and the majority perhaps fell in-between.
This is NOT meant to be interpreted as a defense of the Fellowship of Friends which I consider fraudulent, and of the most odious nature. I believe, for example, that Robert Burton visited sexual humiliation, shame and crippling psychological damage on many – certainly hundreds of otherwise young heterosexual seekers, possibly many more. That he damaged the decent impulses and trusting nature of many thousands of those seeking emotionally enriched lives. That Robert Burton is in fact truly a spiritual criminal – he is the play of crime that he freely accused others of perpetuating.
THIS case can be made, and does not need to be overstated to help others not enter the trap, or to help untangle the binds that hold those who are already ensnared. The danger in overstating the case, for example, is that those in the Fellowship will not see themselves in the mirror per the overstatement – and may thus stay even longer.
Also, if you think about it carefully this discussion tends to conflate two similar but distinct ideas. Like the difference between public health and individual health outcomes. In fact there is a name for this – the “public health paradox.” What can be bad for the whole – at the individual level can be bad for some, and good for others.
Additionally, it took me personally a long time to more deeply understand the Fellowship experience – and even when I thought I had understood it long after leaving, this blog helped me see that I had more to learn. Understanding is indeed a journey.
To me, there is a great danger in insisting on over-conformity as a stifler of expression if, as a group, a critical mass of writers to this blog were to try to impose a standard view on every sincere ex-student who post their honest differing views. A kind of ex-cult political correctness….
This is why I think that opinions such as DXP’s (who does not appear to me to be a Fellowship of Friends plant) – do not seem unreasonable. And honest opinions ought to be in fact welcomed – and not be used as fodder for unhealthy emotional attacks. That it is decent and true to encourage honest and diverse opinions, recognizing that we’ve each had different experiences and are at OUR own (and not necessarily superior) stage of understanding.

Thank you.
Old FOF

2. Associated Press - August 24, 2009

At 76/252. X-ray – July 28, 2009:
https://fofdiscussion.wordpress.com/2009/07/14/fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-76/#comment-14173
mentions places to send petition. Elsewhere, previously, these destinations have been mentioned. But, I was wondering, whether sending it to international human rights organizations might be a good idea? This could cause an unbiased evaluation, and subsequent illumination, of the Fellowship of Friends operations – both professed and actual. Comments?

3. Associated Press - August 24, 2009

Research could be done by searching internet on: ‘international human rights organizations’
or by starting here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:International_human_rights_organizations

4. Nora - August 24, 2009

5. Agent 007 - August 24, 2009

Old FOF, from the previous page: “…the harm by the Fellowship was distributed almost in a “bell-shaped” manner – that some members appeared to be DEEPLY harmed by their experience (thinking of those such as Brixn Sixler and Kexin Kxlly), some appeared to be helped by their experience, and the majority perhaps fell in-between. This is NOT meant to be interpreted as a defense of the Fellowship of Friends which I consider fraudulent, and of the most odious nature.”

No, but I do perceive you’re defending your own actions for having been there for so long? Maybe a little? I have too over the years, and partly because of some occasional sharp words by my non-cult-member friends, I began to notice it.

Some of the same attitudes that lure someone into a cult, and keep them there, are the same attitudes taken with them after leaving. That’s what I perceive about the above.

What I’m hearing from your comments is that you’re highly critical of Burton’s behavior, but you believe the cult experience can be relatively benign for most people — “some appeared to be helped by their experience, and the majority perhaps fell inbetween.”

Very often I recall conversations about Burton’s extreme behavior in the cult, and someone would often step in with a comment such as, “Well, the only question is whether you’re getting anything from being here or not, and whether you’re making effort,” and so on.

That’s exactly what empowers Burton and what leads to people ignoring the obvious fact that something is seriously wrong. It’s the same in all cults. It’s the same in the Fellowship of Friends. It’s compartmentalized thinking… There’s Burton on the one hand, yeah we get that, but there’s also “higher school” on the other hand. So let’s not let his silliness bother us too much.

Look, I completely agree that many of us “got” something from the experience. I’m sure I could gain something by spending 6 months in Scientology, for example, or another group. Of course!

But what’s occuring with that viewpoint is an attempt to not feel quite so bad about the experience; to feel more comfortable about everything we ignored for many years, and to feel more comfortable with the fact that we ignored many people who came to us asking for our help, and to feel more comfortable with the fact that we joined a cult that had some really bizarre, extreme ideas.

I absolutely agree with you that it’s counter-productive to overstate things. But both are true: It’s also counter-productive to understate things. (Uh, 1998, 2006, heading to the back of the line when we leave, an ark for a new civilization, and so on). But here’s the thing: understatement is what keeps a cult strong. Everything is understated. Everything. And if it’s not, that person is usually not around much longer, either by choice or by being forced out.

In my opinion, the healing and “moving on” can take place only when we fully acknowledge the extent of the fraud and the dysfunction of the organization — not just in Burton, but also in our own denial of what Burton is doing and how we indeed enabled it through inaction.

To me, it’s empowering and it’s essential to fully grasp just how bad things are, and how bad things were. Healing from the experience and living productive lives grows from that. Short of those acknowledgments, Old FOF, it’s just more of the same mindset that we carried with us when we proudly entered the Goethe Academy on Sunday morning. Remember: One of the most common attitudes of former cult followers — even in cults where violent acts occurred — is to tell ourselves and others that things really weren’t that bad. By doing so, one foot is still stuck in the door.

Things really were that bad. Things really are that bad.

6. veramente - August 24, 2009

OLD FOF 268 on page 79

Additionally, it took me personally a long time to more deeply understand the Fellowship experience – and even when I thought I had understood it long after leaving, this blog helped me see that I had more to learn. Understanding is indeed a journey.
To me, there is a great danger in insisting on over-conformity as a stifler of expression if, as a group, a critical mass of writers to this blog were to try to impose a standard view on every sincere ex-student who post their honest differing views. A kind of ex-cult political correctness….
This is why I think that opinions such as DXP’s (who does not appear to me to be a Fellowship of Friends plant) – do not seem unreasonable. And honest opinions ought to be in fact welcomed – and not be used as fodder for unhealthy emotional attacks. That it is decent and true to encourage honest and diverse opinions, recognizing that we’ve each had different experiences and are at OUR own (and not necessarily superior) stage of understanding
————————-
RIGHT ON!!!

7. Agent 007 - August 24, 2009

lol, right OFF, veramente.

“ex-cult political correctness?” Really? This blog, warts and all, was the first time there was ANY type of lengthy discussion about the FOF where information actually flowed without someone saying, “Well, that’s just going too far. How do you know that about Robert? You’re so negative. Are you working with the Jack of Clubs?”

Sure, there’s lots of shouting on the blog, but the group pressure that I’m noticing is more about people being afraid to acknowledge the seriousness of the situation… to criticize, yes, but to criticize without criticizing too much. And I think that’s one aspect of the damage being done by some people ranting here — the discussion becomes less about the topic itself, and more about how negative people are who criticize.

Constructive criticism about the FOF is a buzz kill, even for “ex-students.” THAT’s the “ex-cult political correctness” that I’m seeing, to be very frank. All of those “wonderful moments” we had in the FOF are now called into question, and some people feel very uncomfortable about it. (“But, but…. I had a higher state at that concert…”)

The political correctness I see is that it’s fine to criticize Burton, but be careful when the criticism starts being directed at the experience itself. Now you’re getting into territory that calls into question my own sanity, my own judgment, my own decision making, whether the Fourth Way was a type of insanity of its own, and whether all of it may actually indeed have been “wasted years.”

Moving with denial is not moving on.

8. Agent 007 - August 24, 2009

Moving on with denial is not moving on.

9. Vena - August 24, 2009

From Old FOF:

“1). I’m with Ames from a bunch a posts ago when he articulated several possible aims for the blog, the LEAST and last being – the rant. (and his new recent posts)
It seems to me that the blog has done a lot of good – as evidenced by the posters here that note that they left the Fellowship of Friends a few months back, etc. In this regard, the emotional abusers of this space – do a high disservice to the people that they claim to want to help.
Consequently, I think that Elena ought to be banned for good from
posting – although her intentions may be decent, the effects of her emotional inappropriateness (and damage), and ongoing drama and space-taking are highly destructive and diluting in the balance. The difference in the tone of the blog when she was recently gone – as compared to now might be a particular case in point.
Also, for what it’s worth, I think that Nigel’s posts-limit should be one reasonably lengthed post per day. He’s a good fellow and has an admirable insight into himself and often strikes a high emotional tone – but there might/ought to be an imposed limit for the benefit of someone who is clearly well-intentioned but that at times cannot limit themselves.”

I hate to see anyone banned but as I and others have repeatedly said, the type of obscene attacks on others and the ranting and tirades referred to by Old FOF above damage and diminish the good the blog may do. Anyone tuning in to one of those posts could easily go away with the belief that the posters on the blog are sicker than the Fellowship by far.

10. brucelevy - August 24, 2009

8. Vena

I agree.

11. veramente - August 24, 2009

# 7
” 6 Agent 007
You are reading too much in my comment.
What I think of “ex-cult political correctness?” is different from your interpretation. You put the expression in quotes because you are interpreting it in your own way and in your own right.
If I ask each poster here to describe what ex-political correctness meant to them when they read OLD FOF post, I may be surprised about the difference in opinions and how the expression needs to be also considered in the context it was offered. Maybe Old FOF can even explain further.

12. Panoritsa - August 24, 2009

Yes Agent 007…

…The political correctness I see is that it’s fine to criticize Burton, but be careful when the criticism starts being directed at the experience itself. Now you’re getting into territory that calls into question my own sanity, my own judgment, my own decision making, whether the Fourth Way was a type of insanity of its own, and whether all of it may actually indeed have been “wasted years.”

I agree. The blog is even used by ex-members (and of course current members…) to point out to the fact that if “anything” positive about the FOF is mentioned here, it is immediately killed. Many members talk about how negative we are all here. Nothing to look for here…

Of course, one thing we forget is that many of years for many many years of our lives we tried to “control” negative emotions… and then we even tried to “transform” them into … what was it again? positive, neutral higher states??? neutral…hmmm yes, higher centers do not have positive and negative halves…

How many people in the FOF never but never learned how to express their opinion? How many never dared to be confrontational? Remember that about not returning a photograph?

People do not want to say that they wasted time and their talents. I know so many musicians, artists, dancers, etc. who gave up their personal ambitions to fit in the Fellowship family. There is so much power in admitting one made a huge mistake.

You move on when you look at the ugliness behind the gilded walls and mirrors…

13. DXP - August 24, 2009

Old FOF, the ‘understating’ part of your last post was interesting. Would you elaborate? I left way before there was a blog, in the mid 80s actually, and there was NO information available. One reason I left was that everything was overstated – arc for humanity (tho it was NOT for humanity, just for the paying members of the fof), if a fly flew by it was some God saying something ridiculously profound to one person – Robert who then said something grotesquely overstated, no questioning about the shunning because ex-students had COMPLETELY lost their “work” and were DEAD. There was no subtlety, no understatement, all things were put in absolute terms by Robert and then parroted by others. I felt dirty when I parroted and often hung out with those who I thought were the rebels. Turns out these were sometimes the young men being most horribly abused, and I didn’t know.

Bruce said in his “things I learned” that fellow members did not help each other, and I found that to be true too – while in, not after. If we can help anyone (and a current cult member is a difficult person to reach, as we know from being one) then I think it is best to allow a person to be just who they are and start from there. Also, I think it is best to allow ourselves to be just who we are, and we are not walking lock step. We DID have different experiences, and varying kinds and degrees of damage done to us, and have had varying lengths of time and other factors in dealing with our experiences and healing since leaving.

Here’s the reason I left (not the whole reason, but this scene always pops to mind when I think of the moment my decision was made). It was ’83, I think, and I was in Grass Valley, walking around (probably in a stupid dress). I saw an ex-student across the street. He was a guy I knew to say hi to, I’d greatly admired him, and besides I thought he was handsome with a magnetic presence. But he was an ex-student and I knew the rules. So I ducked into an old junk shop (not interested in junk at the time, tho I now do really appreciate junk), and sort of hid behind a shelf pretending to look at the junk. But, unknown to me, he had seen me, followed me into the shop, peeked around the shelving, made direct eye contact and ……smiled. Big beautiful smile. With a twinkle. That was all. He didn’t wink, but I felt a wink and I felt caught in doing something so stupid and humiliating and against what I feel honestly. I felt a huge rush of all the separating of the fof from life and humanity (meant in non-fof terms, but in the best terms) and the greed at the core of that, and that I was being caught in rules that were grotesque to me.–and for what? for who?

That worked for me. Someone screaming at me would not have worked, but maybe for someone else. And, I’m really grateful to this guy for that small moment of awakening for me.

14. WhaleRider - August 24, 2009

Thanks, FOFblogmoderator. I vote any banning be temporary, but a bit swifter. I believe people can change.

Let there be no more personal attacks.

Hasn’t part of our “FOF sickness” been an inability or unwillingness to set limits for ourselves…existing in that “ego-less”, dependent state that allows and enables others to violate our personal boundaries?

Enough is enough, I say.

That’s what I had to decide for myself in order to leave the FOF and not put up with anymore of Burton’s manipulative bullshit, too.

Enough is enough. Let’s work together.

If we don’t limits, then we invite others to exploit us.

We have a great opportunity here to create an educational and healing forum where fence sitters and the freshly liberated can express their vulnerable side and do some much needed reality testing from a variety of viewpoints.

But this needs to be a safe environment without yelling and screaming at each other.

Screaming at the universe is appropriate venting since anger turned inward leads to depressed feelings. Screaming at each other is counterproductive to change.

Pointing out someone’s idiotic behavior is more productive than calling them an idiot. Once the subconscious mind hears “idiot” enough times, it creates a belief that is very difficult to break free from.

15. Dr. Pangloss - August 24, 2009

13. Whalerider
Well said.

It almost sickens me to read on the blog:

“Have a happy feature party, I’ll drop in for the next show or maybe you can find another professional photographer willing to work for free!”

When I was in FOF, the concept of offering a “photograph” was basically used by those with big egos as a way to demean and stifle the spirit of anyone they felt was a notch or more below them in the food-chain. From my experience a “photograph” was rarely offered from a compassionate and non-attached point of view. Those who thought they could see another objectively, were usually the most deluded about their own “high level of being”. Burton being the most extreme example, of course.

16. Tatyana - August 24, 2009

I just want to add my 2 cents. Took me a while to catch up with the discussion, but I found it effective. Fire seems to be bringing forward a lot of truth otherwise hidden under the habit of being “nice”.
I don’t mind the screaming as long as there is truth. This blog has to have more stories. More facts! Facts and information – what motivates people to leave FOF.

Thank you Elena, Ames, 007, DXP and all

17. fofblogmoderator - August 24, 2009

#4 is new

18. dragon - August 24, 2009

From my point of view the Blog appears today as yet another wave pool.
Which direction will the heavy seas go?
Which direction did the heavy seas come from?

Are there unsettled problems or outstanding bills?

Thank you Tatyana and hello to all participants of the blog, WE (I know it is really complicated to use that word) Are A COMMUNITY!

Have a nice day!

19. Kid Shelleen - August 24, 2009

I think that this page should be dedicated exclusively to extolling the GENIUS that is Nora! Her melodic simplicity and rhythmic displacement pushes the bounds of minimalism to places Harold Budd, Brian Eno, and Jon Hassell could never dream of. Listen to her first statement in the video, she OWNS that note, man. Like an unrepentant Charlie Haden, placing that one note front and center, over and over and over, until it is all that exists, until it is all that ever existed. And just when you feel that that one note is all you’ve ever really needed to hear, she gives you the second note. There are simply no words to describe the ecstacy of the second note. And then when the first and second notes are played together…there is Union and all opposites are reconciled and all illusions fall away. Man, that cat can play some piano. I hope she has plans for a fall tour of small to medium sized venues.

20. Agent 007 - August 24, 2009

veramente, i’m sure we agree quite a bit about the things that are most important… But it’s my view that many former followers in cults, including the FOF, will often focus — to a fault — on what they believe were positive experiences from being in the cult. Here’s what I find most significant about that:

It’s no different from the thinking we used as followers inside the cult.

Eventually the criticisms outweigh the justifications, and we leave. But when we leave, the justifications are still there — even today, even in us, right here, on the blog.

There’s plenty of criticism of Burton within the cult, but it’s often followed up with justifications for remaining, or it’s downplayed in some way. The following statement from Old FOF is a classic understatement:

“some members appeared to be DEEPLY harmed… some appeared to be helped by their experience, and the majority perhaps fell inbetween.”

Regarding what someone thinks the tone of the blog “should” be… I for one am trying to walk that balance where I’m not screaming on the one hand, but also not nodding subtle approvals on the other hand. Here’s the thing: It was that subtle approval that kept me in the Fellowship of Friends for so long, and even helped me to consider returning once I left. So finding that balance is what I’m shooting for –whether I’ve achieved it, I can’t say.

21. Ames Gilbert - August 24, 2009

Elena, thanks for your POV. When you lay out the details to show how you couldn’t have possibly found time to seek information in your 16 years in the Fellowship, it is hard to imagine how you found the time to get Girard’s attention and marry him, buy a house in OH (a few hundred feet from mine) and a host of other activities. Yet you did. So you had certain priorities, which you personally chose.

You have trouble accepting a few inconsistencies, which I pointed out fairly gently. Now I’m going to notch it up a bit. You loudly decry inhumanity in the general, but when it comes to the particular, you are happy to tell Whalerider (!!) to get fucked, and that he hasn’t got fucked enough in this lifetime. You are happy to call DXP Dirty Xero Prick and worse. Such a model of humanity you are; this is the reality, not your claims, but your actual being in this matter, proudly displayed.

Nigel, ditto. Do you imagine your letters, such as to Diane Feinstein, bear any fruit? Even if you forward them to us twice over? Do you think she reads your letters? Do you really think her staff of flunkies who pre-screen the letters are going to put yours at the top of the pile? If something inside you realizes that they don’t bear fruit, don’t you think in the quest for truth you profess that the buffer between the two
Do you think that a journalist seeking information about the FoF is going to value your offer of being ‘front man’ (whatever that means) when your latest information is fifteen years out of date, and you didn’t know anything anyway at the time, and your only (though perfectly valid) reason for leaving the FoF was because you couldn’t make the payments?

Jomo patiently and regularly steps in to give us all reality checks about what is legally possible or impossible and why. Why do you not value his advice or at least check up on it and reveal errors or misunderstanding he may have? He has told you the truth, which is: if you don’t have current information about crimes being committed, nothing is going to happen. What about the word ‘nothing’ do you not understand?

Do you guys value the truth? Do you value your time and ours? Do you want to live in fantasies of your own making for the rest of your lives? Elena as Joan of Arc part II, Nigel as the Celtic Superhero who can awaken anyone who gets on the train at Paddington, gets off in Exeter and phones 0 (11) (44) 1392 462103?
_________________________________________

After writing this last night and deciding to sleep on it, I find Elena on the rampage again. Time to notch it up again. Elena, you are revealing quite a bit, from my viewpoint. The first thing is that you are trying to build yourself up by tearing me down ; this has become such a habit with you on the blog that it seems to be an essential part of your character. I have to tell you that this does not decrease my value, it decreases yours.
The second is that you expose the basis of what you call friendship. Again, I try to deal in values. I seek, in my friends, values that I admire, and of course this is not a one-way street. I admired your courage in standing up in court and defending yourself, and for opening my eyes to the possibility of doing this for myself if the circumstances arose. This might have been the basis for exploring the possibility of friendship with you. But, apparently your idea of a friend is an uncritical follower; you were certainly not seeking any value in me (you’ve made that plain in your last posts), and therefore the friendship didn’t develop. So, I am forced to re-evaluate what I thought was courage. One of the hallmarks of personal courage, in my view, is the ability to seek or face the truth, fearlessly, for it’s own sake. Now I have to adjust myself to the possibility that I mistook recklessness for courage.

How you treat this gift (and my effort, time and thought is a value that I offer) will tell you something of the truth about yourself.

22. arthur - August 24, 2009

To all those concerned that Federal Agencies are NOT looking at the blog, I think you are wrong.

I cant prove one iota of the things mentioned NEGATIVE about Robert Burton chief Guru of the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway to Presence. I wasnt there long enough. But, I did experience something positive in the Fellowship of Friends Emily Post “suggestions”. That’s about all.

On April 15, 2009 two FBI agents came to me and took my fingerprints based on nothing more than rumors. It had nothing to do with the Fellowship of Friends but if they can come after me based on street rumors they have looked at this blog and have checked people out. They can lift things about YOU with little or no effort.

23. Old FOF - August 24, 2009

DXP 13

Interesting and telling story ! And so true. We seem to have left about the same time, but with me very inactive for a long time prior (years). My induction into understanding about the nature of the Fellowship was not without its moments.

For example, the person who first told me that we were in a cult (thinking back now jeez, had to be told !) – was perhaps perhaps the one person in the Fellowship for whom I had the least respect. That carried it’s own little penalty. As the knowledge of what we were involved with sank in deeper and deeper I was overcome for a very very long time with a sense of humiliation and deep sadness.

And a strange thing happened multiple times (2-3 times over the years) – as I now finally had things figured out (only to later change) – in my mind’s eye this or that person or event would take on the character as a friend or villain, etc. as consistent with my new attitude. So … presently I’ve gained a great deal of respect for that person who first related to me the “inconvenient truth” that we were in a cult.

Agent 007 – posts various

>It’s no different from the thinking we used as followers inside the cult.

No different? Hmmm …

OK Mr. Bond, how would you characterize the harm created by the Fellowship? To your perception was everyone harmed? Equally?

I have my views, but maybe they are a little ossified – am fully open to persuasion. Thanks.

24. brucelevy - August 24, 2009

20. Agent 007

It’s like a bad marriage. One finally leaves the marriage and slowly, over time one forgets the bad and starts doubting one’s own decision making and thinking, “maybe it WAS my fault”. Then sometimes you go back into the relationship for a second go. It usually takes far less time to remember why it didn’t work out the first time, if one’s lucky.

25. nige - August 24, 2009

Sorry to butt in, in pre-empted fashion, but I do declare that Ames is starting to sound like the G–d H–n of this blogsite – after all he is a Saturn Mars with a dominance feature (and self-dominance as a restraining factor sounds ooh so good to most folks) and takes facts as he pleases and uses them to belittle those whose paths to their own truths by which they live, are different than his and his ‘buddie group’ (I was a ‘fringie’ and a Solar, right? so I knew nothing about nothing) This can go two ways (from Robert Burns) “Would some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as aithers see us”. It’s just me expressing myself, but I think if Ames goes for the role of fofblogmoderator, God knows what will happen.

26. nige - August 24, 2009

The prize goes to Bruce, who went descriptive in support of Ames and let me see another side of ‘brucelevy’. Hopefully, you will find the video of David Bowie’s ‘Absolute Beginners’ that I saw on the ‘V’ music video channel at my local pub today. Check out the visual symbolism!!!!! Be sprucey, Brucey…..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCL7kkn7MJQ

27. nige - August 24, 2009

Plan B…sorry, I double-checked the url (?) and saw nothing pertaining and suggest you Google ‘david bowie absolute beginners’ (the 8 minute and ? seconds version). Thank you for your patience…..I retire awhile…..Nigel.

28. Opus 111 - August 24, 2009

#24 Nige

I do not know if you ever went to an event or meeting led by G-d H-n. If you did, you would certainly agree that it was rather difficult to speak more than he did, or “take more space” than he did.

For your comparison to hold, Ames would have to be a lot more “active” than he is or ever was on this blog. It is a bit like the leader of a FOF meeting in an overcrowded Townhall photographing some dude at the back for “taking too much space” because he is trying to balance himself by leaning onto something.

In blogspace occupying terms, Ames is dwarfed by you and by your blog soulmate. You need not fear that Ames will soon take over…

29. Nora - August 25, 2009

30. Ames Gilbert - August 25, 2009

Hello Nigel,
You’re not butting in, you have every right to have your say.
You don’t seem to be able to shed the language of the Fellowship (or the superstitious numerology, for that matter), but I’ll do you a favor and use it since it makes you comfortable. It was pretty generally agreed (and by me, as well) that I was “working” with ‘lunar-venusian with willfulness and tramp’. But those are just words for you. Here are some facts you can work with; in all the years in the FoF, I gave just two ‘angles’ in the big public weekly meetings, and those were in the last two meetings of my career. I led nothing and was not asked to lead anything, ever. The closest I came to fame was to read poetry in an English accent at dinners (I assume you did the same?) I think you could summon up the totality and general impact of my presence in the FoF, and that word would be ‘non-entity’. But even ‘lunar-venusians’ can come to value rigor and honesty in their thinking, to value precision in their language, to learn about logical thought, and at long last try to use their god-given abilities to reason.

You can relax now, I won’t address you or your contributions again. Have at it!

31. Opus 111 - August 25, 2009

As a follow up on an earlier post on behaviour and the way it can change one’s mind, and on the ways one might help drain the victims’ pool:

The gist of that earlier post is that if you can get someone to change their behaviour, their ideas of themselves will change.

If you can relate to a member of FOF (dinner, conversation, mail, whatever) in a way that is not confrontational, you already have changed fundamental learned behaviour (1. “You shall not speak to, or have any exchange with an ex-student” and 2. “All ex-students have lost their connection to the gods and are doomed to end up on the moon, in eternal torment.”). Their idea of “in, out, possibilities, etc…” might start to change as well, and, as mentioned in the previous post, these new ideas will feel as if they came from within.

When Burton loses members, he loses “his connection to the goods” (sex and money).

32. DXP - August 25, 2009

nigel “after all he is a Saturn Mars with a dominance feature (and self-dominance as a restraining factor sounds ooh so good to most folks) and takes facts as he pleases and uses them to belittle those whose paths to their own truths by which they live, are different than his and his ‘buddie group’ (I was a ‘fringie’ and a Solar, right? so I knew nothing about nothing)”

If you have actually left the fof it might be helpful to not think in the fof boxes. Putting someone in a conceptual box and then drawing “conclusions” from that is so limited. Also, it is often completely false. What is your real beef here? Why do you not want Ames to express his points of view?

33. WhaleRider - August 25, 2009

Unfortunately, the FOF cult, which is run by an unassailable, authoritarian narcissist, instilled in us the illusion that to “awaken” one has to become a fourth way “teacher” like him, elevating oneself by putting and keeping down others…by any nasty means necessary…adopting the stance that “no matter what you know about yourself, you are asleep, and I am awake.”

Nothing could be farther than the truth.

The healthier choice, given the track record of gurus in general, would be to consciously choose not to become a guru despite all the “esoteric knowledge” one is given and live one’s life peacefully, to the best of one’s abilities, without the need to exploit vulnerable others for money, sex, and power.

In that regard, Burton is an excellent role model of how to put oneself and others asleep to their own possibilities of spiritual growth.

Let’s drain the victim pool.

34. Agent 007 - August 25, 2009

Opus, always like your posts.

so…. when we lose our connection to the gods, Burton loses his connection to the goods.

… I often wondered why he’s so concerned about our connection to the gods.

—–
Bruce, yes, good parallel. The blog, by the way, singlehandedly cured me from any notion of returning. I’d like to thank all of you for that.

So thank you.

35. veramente - August 25, 2009

20. Agent 007 – August 24, 2009
veramente, i’m sure we agree quite a bit about the things that are most important… But it’s my view that many former followers in cults, including the FOF, will often focus — to a fault — on what they believe were positive experiences from being in the cult. Here’s what I find most significant about that:
It’s no different from the thinking we used as followers inside the cult.

—————–
007 you touched on a very important point and one that sincerely shocked me in the beginning to find out that many of the former members are still kind of “in”, trying to find the beauties of what they got from their time in the FOF. See the GF discussions.
In the meantime Burton continues toasting to his great good luck! Wonder if he will ever escape to Egypt? without Joseph and Mary of course.

36. Agent 007 - August 25, 2009

Veramente, I was just speaking with a close friend, non-ex-student about friendships. She talked about acts of kindness without the expectation of recognition or gratitude, and forgiveness without the need for acknowledgement. And the ability to disagree while remaining gracious and receptive to the opinions of others. I kid you not.

… almost as though she had been reading the blog… for me, she conveyed just the right words at the right time. very wise.

—–

Regarding Burton…

Ah, he can escape to Egypt, but he cannot escape what he is. That may be his final punishment — one vastly worse than prison.

37. Agent 007 - August 25, 2009

Elena, didn’t read what you had to write. You’re angry — I get it, and understand. No need to explain. It’s part of the road to where are going. I’m rooting for you.

38. DXP - August 25, 2009

Why should we put experiences into “good”, or positive, and “bad” or negative bins? Neatly separating experiences, focusing them, cleaning them of all complexity, and restricting them into good and bad. I think, rather, that actions can be categorized as good and bad and we can assess our actions and those of others in this way without taking away from our experiences – even our experiences of our actions. For example, in an earlier post on this page I told of the moment I decided to leave the fof and it was because of experiencing my own action of shunning, realizing that action was bad and where it came from. But the experience of that realization was an extremely positive moment for me.

39. nige - August 25, 2009

Agent 007

Do you remember in one of Elena’s, dare I say it, ‘softer’ moments, she quoted Goethe…..

“Colours are the Suffering of Light”

I wish for Elena more of these types of rememberance, in her own road to well-being…..

“Salvation Universal…..
…..is it a dream…..nay!
…..or else life’s lesson a mere dream” (paraphrase from Walt Whitman)

40. fofblogmoderator - August 25, 2009

23 is new

41. veramente - August 25, 2009

39. nige
Well Nigel, you sure bounce back quickly after punches.
Perhaps you do not even feel them (they are virtual but nevertheless they must be felt in the heart).
What I am really trying to say is I sense resilience in you that to me seems quite positive. You have a good heart.

42. Agent 007 - August 25, 2009

DXP: “Why should we put experiences into “good”, or positive, and “bad” or negative bins?”

It’s not a “bin.” Words matter. Words can convey truth and help people understand, or they can obsure truth and mislead people.

During the Nazi occupation of Holland, many people heard about the “camps” that Jews were being shipped to. At first, the Dutch were relatively cooperative with the Nazis. Within a short period of time, however, one word was added to the word “camp” — and cooperation quickly turned to resistance.

That word was “death.”

The Fellowship of Friends, DXP, goes into the negative bin. It’s not a Death Camp, but it certainly does harm.

43. DXP - August 25, 2009

007, I’m not saying that words don’t matter! (not sure where you got that). Obviously they do, and they are hard to use. But in your view what is wrong in my saying that the experience of waking up to my own culpability and bad actions was a positive experience….for me, personally. It took me out of the fof and opened up healing and growing. I agree that the ACTIONS of the fof go into a negative bin. The ACTIONS of RB are extremely damaging and he has created a culture where his followers are basically required to do the same.

44. Agent 007 - August 25, 2009

DXP: I do agree there can be an over-use of the words good, bad, positive, and negative. Sometimes there’s more impact in letting the thing speak for itself — by simply opening our eyes and seeing clearly whether it’s functional or dysfunctional, healthy or unhealthy.

23. Old FOF: You’re asking me to quantify and compare the harm by asking if everyone was harmed equally. The first thing is to see harm, period. Many different types of harm. One type is the erosion of conscience. Another is erosion of creativity, self-expression, and self-discovery. Another is the experience of subtle and not-so-subtle forms of abuse — sexually, emotionally, psychologically, financially. It’s really hard to calculate who suffered most from that standpoint. It all sounds pretty bad to me.

As far as people gaining something in the FOF… It’s a bit like walking away from a car accident with minor injuries. I suppose you could say that person gained something.

But someone believing they’ve gained something because someone believes they’re superior to the rest of the earth is not a “gain.” (very much like the Nazis believed they were superior to the Poles and the Russians, and other nations, as they launched their offensives).

Think for a moment about the very best moments we had in the FOF cult: silent moments during a dinner with friends, the sunset with music playing, a quiet moment before a meeting where everyone is sitting still… Two things about that:

First of all, in some cases I believe those moments were very special and memorable, but I am absolutely certain each one of those moments — EACH one — is something that I could have experienced without joining the cult, and that I would have experienced even more outside the cult. A different way, a different place, with different people. But whatever was “real” in that experience I could have had very easily outside the FOF if I had only sought it.

Second, there’s the question of delusion… Just how much of those silent moments during a dinner with friends, the sunset with music playing, a quiet moment before a meeting where everyone is sitting still… are just imaginary, hypnotic states with many of us, or all of us, simply drawing delusionary conclusions… A question with no question mark. Does anyone really need to “persuade” at this point?

45. Ames Gilbert - August 25, 2009

Tatyana’s story (# 79-150 and 153), has brought into clear relief again a central theme of the FoF experience; Burton and the Fellowship of Friends success in swindling the members out of their virtues, their self-worth and their self-confidence, all the things of real value. Burton may attempt to frame it, “replacing conventional Judeo-Christian morality with the new, improved Burton morality”, but in actuality it is a swindle. Acting as models, messengers and enforcers equally and simultaneously, the fully corrupted take turns to corrupt the more innocent and naive, exchanging goodwill, hope and idealism for sickness, perversion and horror.

How does it go? Information passes to Burton, partial and filtered to suit his tastes by sycophants. Burton reacts like the dictatorial automaton he is, and the flunkeys convey his latest judgments and pontifications, adding their own flavors as the message passes down the chain of pain. People like Linda “I’m only following orders” (but I really enjoy the role) Tussolo. People like Girard “If he asks us to do things which seem to have no connection to awakening–or even to be ‘wrong’–we have no choice but to do them anyway” Haven.
Then everyone else piles in, giving unloving ‘photographs’, excuses, and oh-so-impartial observations; conformists all, participants all, guilty all, applying their subtle and not so subtle, but inexorable, pressure to conform. Tatyana was surrounded by people who have completely abandoned their integrity and maintain just a shallow pretence to humanity, who have given up the love freely available ‘on this level’ in pursuit of the chimera of some ‘higher love’ to which Beloved Teacher claims or grants exclusive access. Her poor daughter did not receive even this limited attention, being a non-member and unworthy of the slightest consideration. Tatyana herself, being inexorably squeezed from all sides by her ‘friends’ like a python, could not resist the pressure. Her ‘friends’ took her dignity and her decency, even a proper concern for her daughter, and exchanged it for trash, disguised as appeals to mercy, advanced ‘work on herself’, and so on.

But this is going on all the time in the Fellowship of Friends! I myself observed the shining young men with their eager faces being given lunch by Burton’s boys. They were being primed and readied by the corrupted, who were eager to extend membership of their exclusive club, and share both the burden of shame and the excitement. Their ‘less fortunate’ friends (!!) left behind encouraged them, plucked them of their self-esteem and delivered them as a sacrifice to propitiate Burton. Their wives or women friends, told that they themselves could not become conscious in this lifetime because they were a ‘lower cosmos’, openly envied the young men’s beckoning opportunity. Inexorably squeezed from all sides, they gave in.

But, it isn’t that simple, it never is.
Once, as an experiment, I tried to intervene in the grooming of one young man. I gave him a ride one day, and told him the truth. He told me about the pressure and the turmoil that was going on in him (he was at the stage when he was taking trips with Burton, and Burton had just started asking him for sex). He said he had no money to get back home. I offered him employment, and he seemed grateful to take it. I discovered that he had no skills and was quite lazy. Though I made allowances for his state, he was unable to complete the work within budget, and I let him go. He certainly earned enough money to get home, above expenses (he was American), and I gave him plenty of encouragement and ‘pep talks’. I found out later that he had given in and submitted to Burton while I was employing him anyway. A good lesson for me; I wonder what he learned?

46. We Were There - August 25, 2009

44. Agent 007

‘… I am absolutely certain each one of those moments… is something that I could have experienced without joining the cult, and that I would have experienced even more outside the cult.. whatever was “real” in that experience I could have had very easily outside the FOF if I had only sought it.”

So, Mr. Bond, you ‘could’ have experienced each of those special and memorable moments IF you had only sought it…

But would you have sought it?

While here on The Blog it is not PC to acknowledge ANYTHING positive gained from the Fellowship of Friends experience, I know for myself that the efforts I made, especially those completely foreign to my previous habits and experiences, helped me to grow in many ways.

And while I am at it, I think the credibility of many of the postings here suffers by condemning EVERYTHING about the Fellowship experience.

But maybe that’s just me?

47. DXP - August 25, 2009

Old fof – maybe you were that person who smiled at me…. that would be cool

007, really thought your post #44 was very insightful. And you included this: “Another is erosion of creativity, self-expression, and self-discovery.”

We Were There, I experienced the dinners and the perks of the fof as being spoon fed emotion. Sort of novel and fun at first it soon began to feel like addictive pablum. After leaving I’ve experienced dinners and moonlit nights and concerts, group activities, enlightening conversations MUCH MORE than in the contrived atmosphere of the fof. Yes, the question is “would you have sought it” applies, and if a seeker seeks that, it is not hard to find. But if someone is completely lazy and just wants to be spoon fed “nice” experiences then Robert Burton will provide that….for a price. (and that price includes not only what you pay but includes all the suffering of the abused) The experiences might be “nice” but they lack the involvement of self-discovery, expression and creativity. After all, how creative is it to follow a rigid form (at best) or just go to some prepared experience? Is it really worth what the follower is directly or indirectly doing to other followers?

And who cares what is PC on this blog? -or who is “credible” to someone else? If you had great experiences you are free to say that. I made a few friends in the fof, but they did not really become friends till AFTER leaving when they and I were free to really be friends.

48. Old FOF - August 25, 2009

Agent 007

Thank you for your most elegant explanation. There was indeed harm – and lots to go around. I think that perhaps in your points what you may be negating or at least minimizing or projecting about – is the possibility of individual gain from the experience (more below).

ASIDE to DXP – got my dates wrong earlier – left more than a decade or so after you. Sorry. But I still may have been the smile ! Was around GV then.

Any case, in the early-to-mid pleistocene epoch of the Blog, I referred the Fellowship a school for sodomy and sociopathy – among many other like observations. So to say the least, I am not a fan of FOF. I believe that it has been responsible for serious pathology and even death.

The question that has been an issue for me is something like: can any personal good have come from the poison tree?

Earlier, I’ve referred to a remarkable book by Viktor Frankl “Man’s Search for Meaning” where in less than a hundred concentrated pages the author recounts his experience as an inmate in Nazi concentration camps during WW II – in excruciating and bone-honest detail with no self pity. In this almost terrible-to-read manner he claims this almost unimaginable experience as authentically his own, to literally transform it.

I think for many students who are contemplating leaving the Fellowship of Friends and perhaps many who have earlier quit – they are left with a conflict between the knowledge that the Fellowship and Robert Burton’s actions were wrong and bordered on or were evil. But that they themselves ON BALANCE had seemed to gain by the experience.

For some on this blog, this conflict may seem unimaginable. Please consider though that we all had different experiences. And in my personal case and that of many of the mostly now ex-students that I knew and that I currently know (a couple still in) – this issue is actual and not made up.

A dismissal of this conflict by saying something like the cult of the Fellowship of Friends was evil, consequently everything that one experienced there was bad and wrong – is easy to say but ultimately does not solve the conflict – at least for some. And it may be patronizing and invalidating.

Or, and maybe more importantly, it tends to obstruct a central healing tenant for many ex-Fellowship folk perhaps hindering their personal agency at reclaiming “this almost unimaginable experience as authentically [their] own, to literally transform it.”

49. nige - August 25, 2009

41 veramente

Yes, I think you are right. If I have a good heart, it is because people over the years, despite my being ‘crumbled to the very core of my being’ (my interpretation of the spiritual dying, having awakened to my essence possibilities in my craft form), have believed that I would recover and be reborn/transformed into what is now the beautiful and humanitarian enriching dream that I am now living with my friends and students. To be perfectly honest, I do not think there is such a thing in life as a self-made man or woman. Can you imagine how many backs Donald Trump or Bill Gates walked over to get their positions of power and world-sway – that is the negative-success method. A friendly barman once quoted to me, “Success is the ongoing pursuit of worthy goals”. I am the Fallen Warrior brought back to the land of the living thanks to the help of my family, friends and my health professionals. The reason I bounced back from the ‘confrontation’ of former posts was I realised there was a two-way Pyrrhic victory in the offing. Ames has his Ames, as a well-educated, yet willful and introspective Lunar (which he pointed out to me), and I have aims based on my Solar-Mars-Jovial essence and the legacy of my craft work and teaching of it (I have yet to make my will, but it will be done shortly). The loser would have been the blogsite and the fact that although “Free speech is a dirty business”, we do not have to turn it into a cess-pit. Looking forward to your always balanced posts…..Nigel.

50. WhaleRider - August 25, 2009

We Were There:

We have a history of slavery in Amercia, depsite our country having been founded upon the principle that all men are created equal and deserve equal treatment under the law.

Now undoubtedly there were individual slave owners in the South who were quite kind to their slaves and treated them well, just as you as an individual undoubtedly had positive moments in the FOF in the “smaller picture”.

Some people would argue that the blacks imported to Amercia were given a better life with more opportunites for “growth” than their lives might have had in Africa.

And there were “house slaves” and then there were “field slaves”.

Usually it was the house slaves who had better living and work condtions and consequently didn’t complain as much as the field slaves.

But clearly the institution of slavery as a whole is corrupting of the human spirit and needed to be abolished in the “bigger picture”. Don’t you agree?

I would argue…such is the case with the entire institution of the FOF, despite what you personally may or may not have gained by your particular experience.

Would you want your own child to join the FOF in order to grow in the way that you did?

51. We Were There - August 25, 2009

47. DXP

Thanks for your thoughts.

Btw, when I refer to positive aspects of the Fellowship of Friends experience, I don’t refer to ‘dinners and perks’ but rather to unusual (out of patterns, if you will) efforts such as moving to a distant city with no contacts or continuity to draw upon or such as picking grapes for 14 hours a day for 10 days in a row.

‘And who cares what is “credible” to someone else?’

I care.

MY main aim for the blog is that the postings here will resonate with current members who perhaps KNOW that they have personally gained from their Fellowship experience and who also are sick at heart with what it is today.

Whalerider

A special thanks to you for posting your story here (now) so long ago. It played a huge role in freeing me from the spell of Robert Burton (15 years after leaving the Fellowship).

52. nige - August 25, 2009

To those who have argued over the ‘did we have positive experiences in the FoF, or was it all negatives?’, I have a visual analogy. Remember those ‘monkey on a stick toys’ that only went up-and-down and never got off the stick to get anywhere in particular? Well, that was the FoF experience for me. The grinding money problems, the friction of features having to deal with one another, the over-burdensome exercises and tasks were all at the ‘bottom of the stick’. Stimulating music, trips to the property, fine dining and beautiful impressions ‘hit the top’. And all kept in place by the ‘de haut en bas’ attitude perpetrated by Burton and his enablers. If the 4th way had/has any meaning, it is that it is REALIZED IN LIFE. And now, “I want to live with the common people” (a popular song by the group ‘Pulp’…..Nigel.

53. DXP - August 25, 2009

We were there, “I don’t refer to ‘dinners and perks’ but rather to unusual (out of patterns, if you will) efforts such as moving to a distant city with no contacts or continuity to draw upon or such as picking grapes for 14 hours a day for 10 days in a row.” Yes, I remember some of those –and with fondness (for want of a better word). But I did a lot of that for many many years before ‘settling down’ and only a few of those were in the fof, so my experience of those kinds of invigorating adventures are not linked to the fof for me. For myself these were adventures of being young, and you are right – a certain facilitation is needed for them (at least I think you are saying that).

About ‘credibility’, I guess I was just being flip (I do have “asshole moments”, as has been pointed out, so thanks for having patience with me). There are always difficulties in leaving. When I left there was no information. I just had lots of creepy intuition and little concrete knowledge. I was actively and cruelly shunned by friends, and knew a couple of other ex members, but it was not a community. But I got out and went on and am grateful for that. For someone now contemplating leaving there will probably be a certain regret, guilt, denial (etc) for not having left sooner and having ignored intuition, conscience, and even blatant information. But there seems to be a wonderful support community in OH and in the GV/NC area with many opportunities that affords. I think ex members who are either nearby or who still have contact with those leaving are doing a great humanistic service, and are actually, yes, Noble.

54. James Mclemore - August 26, 2009

The blog is enjoyable and stimulating to read once again. Many good posts. This blog seems to have a wonderful resilience which I would assume must indicate it is still serving a purpose for many.

Ames – Thank you for what you write.

OLD FOF – It is good to hear your voice again

fofblogmoderator – Thanks for helping to keep the train on the tracks

55. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009
56. Old FOF - August 26, 2009

Nigel

The re-posting my earlier blurb at the top of this page showed a generosity of spirit that I have come to associate with you.

Also wanted to note that I found myself tonight in an Episcopalian library – and was reading “A Companion to Paul” circa 1975 when unbidden a thought entered to thank you for aspects of your posts with Anglican scripture – that I have personally found uplifting.

Thank you.

57. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009

We Were There: “MY main aim for the blog is that the postings here will resonate with current members who perhaps KNOW that they have personally gained from their Fellowship experience and who also are sick at heart with what it is today.”

Well, ok, I agree with the feeling of being sick at heart with what the cult is today. But, your premise here seems to be that at one point the cult was a sane organization, and that somehow today it’s worse? Hasn’t the blog addressed this topic enough to dispel that myth?

WWT, you too were conned just as today’s members are being conned.

58. We Were There - August 26, 2009

57. Agent 007

‘WWT, you too were conned just as today’s members are being conned.’

Agreed!

59. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009

By the way, it may BE getting worse, and it could get worse, which is why I thought DXP’s comment about whether NPD is progressive is a frightening question. But it’s the thought that we “KNOW” that we’ve personally gained… Of course we’ve gained, but gaining what, and at what cost?

Undoubtedly, even the rush to war is a wonderful, exhiliarating experience for some — who take with them powerful memories that in certain ways can make them stronger for the rest of their lives — even those who fought for Nazi Germany.

One other comment: Many good people fought for Germany in WWII, many who felt conflicted at what Hitler was doing, and many civilians were confused by the propaganda and knew that something was seriously wrong despite the wonder of the mass rallies and the national pride that Hitler evoked in the nation. Certainly there was “gain” in those experiences. But the gaining was a sad one for many when they realized what Hitler was doing to innocent men, women, and children.

One of the things that woke people up to Hitler’s insanity was that his NPD did indeed get worse, with a geometric progression in the final two years, and up to the very end.

Anyone concerned by that in relation to Burtons? I sure hope so. But the point is — in 1933? Not much concern at all, despite all of the obvious red flags. I can’t imagine someone looking back on that experience and saying, “Well, things were cool back in 1933. He brought us out of the depression, and brought pride back into our country. It’s sad that Germany is “what it is today.”

60. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009

I hear ya. As I said to someone above, I think we do agree on the things that are most important.

61. DXP - August 26, 2009

Agent 007,

I think different people DID have different experiences in the fof. We were not all abused to the same degrees. The worst were the people sexually abused, raped, harassed, and also the people abandoned. For others it is difficult to face that we facilitated that. We facilitated that even tho we were unwitting….or witting and seriously buffering. But we adventured, dined, and experienced on the backs of those who were horribly abused. Even tho we (with a core of spiritual greed) had the best intentions, the suffering of many are a stain that is not only on RB but on us too. (of course there is another category and that is people who are deeply committed to furthering the RB con no matter what suffering is caused) It is the way RB set it up – to give something and take something much more. And he set it up to feed some people’s needs and desired and to keep them ignorant of his con. A ‘con’ is progressive and “by the fruit you will know the tree” (or whatever exactly the phrase is) is progressive as more fruits from the diseased tree become apparent. RB is sort of stupid (intellectually and culturally and spiritually) but he’s got smarts emotionally and in the dark art of manipulation.

But I also don’t advocate for any ex member to feel that a portion of their lives is COMPLETELY wrong and worthless. It is genuinely important to learn lessons of this strength. Also, to come to realize that we are truly connected in ways that are not obvious, is beneficial.

62. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009

Old FOF: “The question that has been an issue for me is something like: can any personal good have come from the poison tree?”

I absolutely believe the answer is yes.

63. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009

DXP, beautiful post. Similar to what I wrote above in response to Old FOF, I do agree with the following:

“But I also don’t advocate for any ex member to feel that a portion of their lives is COMPLETELY wrong and worthless. It is genuinely important to learn lessons of this strength. Also, to come to realize that we are truly connected in ways that are not obvious, is beneficial.”

64. Old FOF - August 26, 2009

Agent 007

>By the way, it may BE getting worse, and it could get worse, …

Completely on board with you there 007. My thought is that if and when the Fellowship leaves “The Farm” whatever its then current name (which seems inevitable if he is still alive given Robert Burton’s greed and long-time hollowing out of the assets) – a certain kind of decentralization will likely ensue.

It was at times like these (in series) when deadly suicidal cults such as Heaven’s Gate, and Jonestown (Peoples Temple), etc. began to get more dangerous. Well, maybe they were already dangerous, but it was a signal !

To any current students out there, who may be on the fence, if you can’t leave now – when and if changes like this begins: time to leave asap.

As an aside, I think at least twice in my later stay in the Fellowship in intimate group settings I heard Robert Burton say in his mock humble almost inaudible voice with his head bowed – that he knew that the students in this room would be willing to die for him.

If you think about this, as compared to the idea of Jesus dying for others, you know everything you need to know about the Fellowship.

BTW, a little voice in my head at those times said (to me), Wait, I thought he was supposed to die for us ???? WTF ?

65. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009

We Were There… re-read your posts and like the one I responded to more the second time around. I think that might be a good practice for me — a bit like counting to 10 before one speaks (writes). thanks for your thoughts, and looking forward to reading more.

Old FOF… good to see you on the page. Apt comparison and a powerful idea within it. I had never thought about it quite this way: “If you think about this, as compared to the idea of Jesus dying for others, you know everything you need to know about the Fellowship.”

66. Panoritsa - August 26, 2009

Good discussion; prompts thoughts and helps to question what was/is going on in the FOF and in our minds…

Thank you…

A few pages ago (and on the GF), Ellen very clearly distinguished the “good” and the “pleasant” when it comes down to experiences and the FOF.

For myself, I am still puzzled and in the process of trying to figure out what happened all those years. I left less than a year ago. I want to have things clear as soon as possible, but I also know it will take me time to come back to my self, to re-connect with my feeling about myself. I have managed to get clear of the “work language”… this did not take that long… but my body still remembers about the “efforts”, about the endless intellectual efforts to understand and be in such an artificial way, the unusual corrections I tried to bring to a healthy mind in order what? … to become more than just… to be more than… to not be like… to be like…

I know it sounds not so politically correct to say that the FOF experience was rubbish. But it sounds like this when you equal your life with the FOF. And many did that and still do. Burton has managed to persuade thousands- we were willing anyway to take the crap from almost anyone- that the most worthy experience in one’s life is joining the FOF and staying there.

What I missed and find it the core of my confusion is that my life is unique and precious. In the course of my life I look and experience so much, and the FOF was and for some still is, a glimpse… nothing more… We are who we are with or with no FOF… And since our behaviour seems to be influenced by our environment; we were/are influenced by the FOF setting… And interestingly enough, we were also part of the FOF setting… So we also influence others…

I think most of us who joined the FOF ( and I am one of those who joined in their very early twenties…) ought to look into what brought them to such a decision. I know that my insecurity, my immaturity, my sense of being special, my lack of a warm nest, my desire to be someone but not really show it, my desperate feeling of wanting to belong to, my inability to set boundaries, my low self esteem, my “practice” with self-absorbed people, and yes…. that feeling that there must be more in this life… the desire to find that peace within…the desire to share with others… all of that and more brought me to start reading psychology and fourth way at a very early age.

But I did not look further than the FOF. I bought the package and stayed with it.

Had lovely moments. The moments are part of MY life, they are not registered with the FOF…

Had difficult moments…Also part of MY life… Not the FOF…

We influenced each other…We put energy in being together and tried to connect with ourselves, during meetings and dinners and all that. When people come together and try to be… there is an affect… “Higher centers” and the “Gods” are “hovering” all over the place…

Nothing more special than a little meditation course with the right attention…

And yes, I met lovely people… but to tell you a secret… I still meet lovely people…

67. Dr. Pangloss - August 26, 2009

64. Old FOF
As an aside, I think at least twice in my later stay in the Fellowship in intimate group settings I heard Robert Burton say in his mock humble almost inaudible voice with his head bowed – that he knew that the students in this room would be willing to die for him.

Good point. And I was told, after I had left, that a certain storm trooping student named Steven D_mb_ck had told Burton he would kill an irritating former member if so asked. Watch out for that muther-fucker.

68. veramente - August 26, 2009

46 wwt
And while I am at it, I think the credibility of many of the postings here suffers by condemning EVERYTHING about the Fellowship experience.
—————————–
The above is catching my attention.
I like what Panoritsa said:
Had lovely moments. The moments are part of MY life, they are not registered with the FOF…

But to add just a little bit of my poison, perhaps I should call the FOF experience as My Life During My FOF Years while I was being brainwashed.
Or, while I was brainwashed and became progressively deeply disturbed I also had a chance to have good friends, be married, and have kids.
Uh, forgot to mention the bankruptcy as well….

69. veramente - August 26, 2009

3. Associated Press
any luck with some of the organizations posted on wiki?

70. Ill Never Tell - August 26, 2009

Dear FoF Blog companions (and that means you, too, Elena),

I have been silently on the sidelines for awhile. Some of the reason being the fire that passed through the O.H. zone. That was another close call. It is with deference to that event that I held back on this one:

You know what Robert is reported to have said regarding Reno, Nevada?: ‘Reno is so close to hell that you can see sparks.’ Making humorous the proximity of Reno to its neighboring community, Sparks, Nevada. Perhaps, now, similar could be said of Fellowship of Friends headquarters, in Oregon House, CA, since there have been at least 3 significant wild fires in its neighborhood recently: ‘Apollo is so close to hell you can see sparks; real sparks – plus smoke and flames.’ No joke. I even saw a pitch fork around them thar hills. Some say it was the McLeod fire fighting tool (look it up on the ‘net), but some guy named Poseidon, brother to Pluto (sometimes called Hades) – god of the underworld, was holding it.

71. Tatyana - August 26, 2009

1. Old FOF
“What can be bad for the whole – at the individual level can be bad for some, and good for others.”

That reminds me, my mother often told us that the happiest time of her life was during the second world war. She was 9 then and was evacuated to Georgia (Russia) were she enjoyed fruits and fresh mountain air…

72. Tatyana - August 26, 2009

Have you seen those pictures that are tricks for the eyes (or the mind), when you see one thing but if you are told what else you can see there – you see that too? Like “what do you see and old witch or a young beautiful woman?”

I realized that I have a similar situation with FOF.

I still can tune into a FOF vision and then things look like this:

There are powerful Mystical Forces that guide our (my too) life and They operate in special moments and teach how to be a better person, more patient, more sensitive, more compassionate and loving and more refine. These Forces are only visible at times of suffering. When a person is ready to dedicate his life to the cultivating these qualities in himself, mysterious help comes from these Forces. They organize situations (plays) that are causing pain and friction, but also are the valuable lessons and can show a person their limitations. They are designed individually for individual person and therefore no one can judge what is right and what is wrong for someone else. They point one to a special organization (FOF) that was created on Their principals and therefore is a strong support to those who are struggling and suffering. The Teacher has dedicated himself to serve Their guidance and sacrificed his life for doing whatever it takes to follow and obey them. He is focused on production of the material necessary for such organization – fine energy (H12) which is produced and collected from sex, art and fine life style. This energy illuminates persons consciousness and brings light to their lives, changing them, gives them a new meaning and makes them more developed, emotionally mature and responsible human beings. Therefore they are able to make much more effective and difficult efforts and payments, become financially successful, professionally competent, educated and free of unnecessary laws of a smaller scale.

Those who did not experience or forgot these Mystical Forces, or were not able to follow Their guidance becoming very confused and see ‘efforts’ as abuse, and ‘freedom of unnecessary laws of a smaller scale’ – as a crime.

Another vision is this:
A very evil, greedy and perverted con man, narcissistic psychopath and clever hypnotizer confused and brainwashed very intelligent people and by lying and manipulating them made them pay a lot and work hard, abused them, hurt them and used their kindness and naivete for his vicious obsessions. His victims are suffering from these abuses their entire lives, some of them unable to heal – end their lives.
Those who did not manage to see the truth is stuck in his cult, brainwashed and enables crime and abuse.

73. Vena - August 26, 2009

I just want to say that I am appreciating the conversations here and especially appreciating the lack of angry diatribes and vicious name calling. Thanks fofblogmoderator.

74. Opus 111 - August 26, 2009

The questions “Was the FOF experience all bad?” or “What good came from your FOF experience” are misleading questions, in my opinion, and largely irrelevant to the bigger issue and the purpose of this blog.

The bigger issue and question is: “What good can possibly come from the experience of being emotionally and sexually abused by someone who introduced himself as your spiritual guide and the only existing key to your spiritual salvation?”

Undeniably, the FOF experience, like any other experience, juxtaposed many uplifting, emotionally charged moments: wonderful performances, glorious sunsets, tasty morsels, falling in love with that person.

As sweet as those moments might have been, they do not and should not soften the reality of abuse that is structurally embedded in FOF, that is funneling monetary resources to its leader for his endless enjoyment of luxuries and travels (under the guise of cultural pursuits), and purveying of young, naive heterosexual men for his grotesque sexual needs (under the guise of privileged spiritual guidance).

Supporting the FOF is supporting ongoing abuse. Edulcorating one’s past experiences in the FOF is throwing sugar on the backstage scenes of the Galleria.

75. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009

“Good point. And I was told, after I had left, that a certain storm trooping student named Steven D_mb_ck had told Burton he would kill an irritating former member if so asked. Watch out for that muther-fucker.”

I doubt it. Storm trooper / SS Guard. Sure there’s a good comparison in there somewhere — but until the FOF has clearly demonstrated condoned violence, I don’t see that. I’m sometimes concerned the FOF “could” become violent one day, because that’s what happens to many cults. And many people within those cults probably felt the way current followers probably do — that something like that could never happen in the FOF. But, I just hope the rumor you heard is wrong. As far as I know, S— n D–k is an enabler and has dug himself in very deeply. His ego would crumble into a heap on the floor, so he can’t leave. But I’d like to believe he doesn’t have that level of insanity within him.

And I hope someone isn’t quoting this comment a few years from now.

76. WhaleRider - August 26, 2009

One thought that continues to haunt me still is the idea of current followers being tapped on the shoulder and asked to take part in Burton’s “homosexual octave”….

…and what “efforts” it takes to bridge the two intervals in order to feed Burton’s sex addiction.

Weren’t we indoctrinated for years and years how important it is to make whatever efforts (conscious or unconscious) necessary to “complete” octaves”?

77. Agent 007 - August 26, 2009

By the way, Apollo Olive Oil… would be interesting to see where the money is going.

78. Old FOF - August 26, 2009

Various posters and points,

Hi back to you James Mclemore. And veramente, Vena, whalerider, Ames Gilbert, and others (sorry if I left out). I’ve appreciated the evenness, thoughtfulness and steadfast holding of your lines of discourse over the months leading now to years. I expect that there are any number of ex-students AND those who did not join this decadent and dying organization – who may not know how you have quietly helped them.

And to the fierce and principled defenders like Bruce and now 007.

In getting back in the fray, I have seen the touching eloquence of Panorista (recent post). And the sincerity of Tatanya and other students who have recently left – and and tellers of their stories.

And the integrity of Nigel. And Elena, who seems so like sparrow with a broken wing.

My old friend We Were There WWT – who WAS there meeting when Brixn Sixler, having been dropped by the Fellowship of Friends was wandering weeks homeless and in a psychotic state only to be stabbed and near death – WWT arranging with Brixn’s father trying to find the least bad placement solution for him.

We have our stories – and our authentic experiences.

RANDOM MEMORIES (hopefully not to be confused with guilding the lily).

I REMEMBER living in a tent above the upper meadow – when 2-3 salaried regulars typically walked by quietly at dusk to officially cross the property line to smoke weed (near the then (to me now) laughably named “Boy’s World”) – as marijuana smoking was then not allowed ON the property.

I REMEMBER the agony on Bruce’s face as he had just been hit or fallen off a motorbike (pedestrian?) as he lay on Rice’s Crossing Road having broken his leg. And my then sympathy for him.

I REMEMBER the group of males including myself laughing and joking nervously as we castrated that pig just off of Rice’s Crossing Road – under the direction of Bernxrd whose only qualification was that his brother was a vet.

I REMEMBER walking down from my tent and for maybe 10 seconds being transfixed from across the meadow as Chrxstxne (Bruce’s girlfriend) showered naked as a jaybird under one of those sun warmed 5-gallon buckets. The very picture of a wood nymph.

I REMEMBER Robert Burton leading an introductory meeting at a new center – with one prospective student. Of Burton towering over the prospective student at the break leaning into his face with a meaningful and determined look explaining in his clipped verbal teaching style that “the system” was like zen buddhism. And the prospective student sneaking quietly out the door even before the break was over…..

79. Another Name - August 26, 2009

Dear All,

A friend of mine just commented that being in the fellwoshipof friends was so exhilarating because all was new, and many things changed over and over to be “new”. It was a way to have no connection with the “pain body”.

I pondered about this and saw the light.
For me when I was out the “painbody” came back very strong.

This excellent movie might give you more info of recurrent patterns of triggering painbody’s or trauma’s.

Use some speakers as te sound is very low.
Robert Scaer is a neurologist and what is says is revolutionairy….

Get on the path of healing girls and boys and yes work together.

Thansk Whalerider for your anology of the slavery. Speaking about PAIN BODY and TRAUMA”S.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=robert+scaer&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

Please I would appreciate some feed back.

80. brucelevy - August 26, 2009

78. Old FOF

Wow. Just to clear up the gaps…I was riding back to the ranch and a woman in a slow moving vehicle signaled me to pass. I assumed she saw no oncoming cars. D**n B****l (in a car) and I hit head on and I flew through the air to the other side of the road. Yes I remember it too. And yes C*******e was the quintessential wood nymph. Thanks for the memories.

81. Opus 111 - August 27, 2009

79 Another name

Fascinating interview.

I think the key to linking what he says about trauma and the experience of abused men in the FOF is not that it was violent (in the ordinary sense), but that it happened in a state of helplessness (freeze state). The helplessness is induced by the sham spiritual context introduced by the perpetrator (“C-Influence arranged this for us”, “this is special and will accelerate your evolution”, etc…) or veiled threats (“you will lose your connection to me and to the gods”, whatever). Recovery from such traumatic events is often long, if it occurs at all. Too often the trauma leads to manifestations of the post-traumatic stress syndrome or, according to Dr. Scaer (what a prophetic name!) to a variety of ill-defined chronic ailments that resist common therapies (Irritable bowel syndrome, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, torticolis to name just a few).

82. Tatyana - August 27, 2009

I know a lot of Russian guys who are proud to be RB’s sex toys. They believe that they are cooler then the rest of the world (gray masses) because they live in the Galleria and walk around the rose gardens. They have nice clothes and travel and they don’t have to work. And they don’t give a shit about consciousness, conscience or spirituality whatsoever!

83. Jomo Piñata - August 27, 2009

I haven’t watched the whole Scaer presentation yet, only the first ten minutes or so. I plan to watch the rest and look into his writings. Great stuff.

The helplessness is induced by the sham spiritual context introduced by the perpetrator

A complementary way of looking at this: The function of the Fellowship brand of fourth-way ideology was to induce a state of learned helplessness in its adherents so as to promote their exploitation. It seems to me that “learned helplessness” links right up to the “freeze response.”

84. brucelevy - August 27, 2009

82. Tatyana

Maybe they have what they deserve.

85. Dr. Pangloss - August 27, 2009

75. Agent 007

As I said in my post, I heard the story second hand and have no idea if it is true. I’ve been out a long time and hardly new the guy when I was in. I have heard other stories of him shouting obscene racist remarks at members of his vinyard crew and being a bully behind the soft smiling mask he presented at meetings.
From what I can tell the only people who liked this guy were the married women he was seducing.
As for quoting from the blog. No real journalist would quote a second hand anecdotal story about a guy with 2 underlines in his name told by a character from a Voltaire story, now would they. Unless, of course it came up after a shooting rampage where the families of the victims wondered why no one had taken previously reported threats seriously.

What does olive oil have to do with this?

86. James Mclemore - August 27, 2009

82. Tatyana

“And they don’t give a shit about consciousness, conscience or spirituality whatsoever!”

It sounds like they have a lot in common with Burton.

87. X-ray - August 27, 2009

2. Associated Press – August 24, 2009

At 76/252. X-ray – July 28, 2009:
https://fofdiscussion.wordpress.com/2009/07/14/fellowship-of-friends-discussion-part-76/#comment-14173
mentions places to send petition. Elsewhere, previously, these destinations have been mentioned. But, I was wondering, whether sending it to international human rights organizations might be a good idea?

Why not?

88. X-ray - August 27, 2009

82. Tatyana – August 27, 2009

That’s exactly who they are; a conscienceless sluts.
And these, are Burton’s favorites, which tells a lot about him, ‘is it not, my dears’?

89. DXP - August 27, 2009

51 WWT: “MY main aim for the blog is that the postings here will resonate with current members who perhaps KNOW that they have personally gained from their Fellowship experience and who also are sick at heart with what it is today.”

Curious…. why and what are current members ‘sick at heart’ about? What is their view of what the fof is today?

90. James Mclemore - August 27, 2009

51. We Were There

“MY main aim for the blog is that the postings here will resonate with current members who perhaps KNOW that they have personally gained from their Fellowship experience and who also are sick at heart with what it is today.”

It feels to me like there is perhaps a potential difficulty in trying to do that. It would be my contention that they would need to see that what has been gained is because of them and has been in spite of Burton and the fof (no matter how many ‘yeah but’s’ that the mind will come up with). It seems that our innocence and good intentions can take us quite a ways and we can learn many things despite almost any circumstance. However, when you have truly become “sick at heart” with any situation, movement will usually occur very soon. If it does not, it means that there is still someone clinging to something and afraid of something; or may be stalling by questioning either the degree of this ‘heart sickness’, or second guessing where it is coming from. If an fof follower is afraid that the sickness in their heart may be coming from the dreaded ‘lower self’, or that supposed monster the ‘king of clubs’, or that angels are testing them, then they are going to be immobilized. The mind can and will, turn things over and over and look at them from a dozen different points of view, and just turn in circles doing it all over again. I think it comes down to something very simple that probably occurs on a non-verbal level. For myself I oftentimes just do not know precisely how I arrived at where I find myself to be, and I usually do not have a clue as to where it is I am going next; But something inside CAN feel in my gut and know in my heart that it is time NOW for change, and all the ‘yeah buts’ are finally layed aside, and only then the necessary movement actually starts and will almost appear to begin unfolding all on its own.

91. Panoritsa - August 27, 2009

I can never know of course, but I can only suspect that current members have traded their own feelings and thoughts for what the Cult and Burton has to offer. How do I know…suspect? The simple truth is I did this too. Would this give an explanation for the “sick of heart”?

Also, most members still try to make sense of the sequence thing. Even the ones who are deep “in” could not connect back then…a year ago…. And even many of them would not go to meetings, mainly because of the restriction of just reading the quotes that would arrive in the centres through the “Thoughts from the Teacher” subscription (20$ per month) and the use of a very broad selection of images from art works to photography where Burton desperately tries to connect the sequence with everything substantial that has ever existed… It is quite a blow to someone’s intellect… but as we all Cult members used to say… {It is not the words… It is the state!!!!}

One other issues that I have seen play quite a big role in my thinking and expressing my current feelings about my time in the FOF, is those two old bitches: guilt and shame…

A current member (who said it was a question of time for them to go…) told me a few months ago:… “Gosh, I still remember you sitting next to Robert…” And I wanted the earth to open and take me deep down in her arms…

Because, yes, I longed for sitting next to Robert and I longed for his attention and one or two “significant” words…(like…nice blouse you have on…) And I would do anything for all that (…well, I am a girl…so…not exactly…). How stupid I think now. But, Robert was a God in the fellowship family… All the people I cared for and respected since I was 22 were praising him and they were all looking up to him. I went with the flow.

The difference is that I went all the way in a way… I did not sit back and kept on praising (well, I did that too…). I came closer to the God and then I did not have such a fantastic feeling in my stomach when I was sitting next to him… To be sincere, I felt like vomiting most of the time and my head would spin and spin…but I had nowhere else to go… And all those “funny” physical reactions were clearly my “instinctive centre” which is a “beast” and could not take the “higher hydrogens” of such a being as Robert… Was I not school material after all????

So, yes, I think guilt and shame are quite strong bitches when it comes down to my experiences in the FOF… They make me to not want to be “disrespectful”, they want me to be “consistent” with my life and beliefs, they push me to be “loyal”… and that current member who wrote to tell me that I am a beautiful person because of being a member of the Fellowship… Well, next to the curses I want to send his way… I feel he also has his bitches to deal with… RIP…

92. X-ray - August 27, 2009

85. Dr. Pangloss – August 27, 2009

Was it J..es, you are referring to?

93. X-ray - August 27, 2009

76. WhaleRider – August 26, 2009

One of the longtime Burton’s cocksuckers told me that Burton told him that having sex with the Teacher is the most important third line work he can do.

94. Agent 007 - August 27, 2009

Pangloss 85. Yeah, I was thinking more of another blogger quoting me in the future, but definitely not a journalist — mostly someone making a reference to my denial as an ironic statement.

Anyway, I sense you and I probably have a fairly similar attitude about the The Guy with the Underlined Name. I’m glad you brought up the story; it makes me think.

I mentioned the apollo olive oil because The Guy with the Underlined Name is involved with the company. I doubt it’s a profitable company, but they definitely sell some of the stuff, so I’d be curious what happens to the money they bring in. More money for Burton, no doubt, even if it’s not that much.

95. Agent 007 - August 27, 2009

X-ray… see 67 Dr. Pangloss.

96. Tatyana - August 27, 2009

Panoritsa, beautiful post, thank you.
I was often wondering how people end up sitting next to Robert, especially if they are women? But even though I never sat next to Robert, he did give me a few “nice dress” compliments. Does he give them around like candies? Sometimes he touched my hand as if really happy to see me passing through the crowd at the meeting from his bedroom to the front seat. Made me very happy then.

What all those addicts to RBs attention are going to do if he goes away? Fight who is more important?
One Russian guy a few years ago said that Robert told him in his bedroom that he will be the first Russian who will go to Paradise. He told me that wearing his new white suit and white leather shoes glowing as if he just won a ticket there. “First to Paradise? Lucky!.. What about me?”
And of coarse those who are working for Robert – organizing ballets, concerts, auctions, trips, visas, shopping, flowers, events, etc. They must feel REALLY special. So I hope there will be some rules and regulations at the entrance to Paradise because it can get very messy!

97. We Were There - August 27, 2009

91. Panoritsa

Thank you for your post; the experiences you describe are very familiar.

Several years before I left the Fellowship of Friends I removed myself from the ‘traveling teacher’ list and stopped going to the meetings – I knew that I should/could not be ‘teaching’ as I felt that most of the ‘angles’ (still like that concept!) that I and others were parroting were lies (as in ‘talking about something I didn’t know and couldn’t know as if I did know’).

But I soldiered on.

As I still had frequent contact with Robert Burton, and as an ‘older student’ (not just years in the FOF), occasionally one of his targets would ask me what they should do about his unwanted sexual demands.

I would naively advise they ‘should just say no’ if that was the way they felt (never asking what those demands were – it was only here on the blog that I have grown to understand the depth of Burton’s depravity; I simply could never have imagined it before).

But I became increasingly aware that these generally young, dependent, passive (submissive if you will), vulnerable men were desperately seeking assurance that what they were involved in was ‘okay,’ aware the visible role I had (combined with my age and time in) – not what I said, really, but what I seemed to be – silently reassured them that everything was okay (Panoritsa said “All the people I cared for and respected since I was 22 were praising him and they were all looking up to him. I went with the flow.”).

Things were far from okay, but I soldiered on.

And this went on for years.

And one sunny day, the ‘interval’ was there, the ‘shocks’ were there, and I ran to daylight (maybe you can tell I still like ‘work language and Fourth Way ideas).

So I try not to be too hard on those who are still members. It is clear they can’t break free yet, but who knows where each is in the ‘octave’ of their life as members. Until their ‘sunny day,’ the most constructive thing I can do is try to communicate that there is life after the FOF and as DXP reminded us above there is a growing support community in OH and in the GV/NC area and beyond.

98. Tatyana - August 27, 2009

Conversation with a current FOFer:

T.:I just talked to RB’s Russian boy, he is so vain that he lives in Galleria and does not have to work that he feels that he had escaped the gray masses! And all Russian guys are like this: D., S., V, G, N. They are vain and there is nothing spiritual or cultural about their life in the school. And Robert does not care because he cares less for their evolution, all he cares for is that he has sex. And you and people like you are supporting this and not willing to look at the reality. YOU are buying them silk shirts and trips!

X.: And also nice things for the gardens, Galleria and Apollo d’Oro so everybody can enjoy the impressions. I am not responsible if the whole Russia are just a nation of whores and they sell themselves to an old guy for a few clothes and later get angry at him for that. V. could of use his time with Robert to gain something for his soul – he was surrounded by beauty and culture and hydrogens, but now he threw it all out of the window, got girls, did some orgies and ended up not where he wanted at the first place. It is only his fault! I was very careful to never give Robert more than I wanted to give. And Robert gives them a lot and he does care for their evolution.

99. veramente - August 27, 2009

79 Another name
Great video from Dr. Scaer.
Towards the end he talks about rituals for healing trauma.
Perhaps even getting together here on the blog it’s a sort of ritual, telling our stories in front (so to speak) of one another, trying to understand what happened, what it was that brought us to the cult, how we escaped or are escaping, the mental emotional processes, this is all good.

——-
91 Panoritsa
I am not sure what do you mean about guilt and shame.
Are you saying that you feel the above for having been in the Fellowship of Friends, or the guilt from having left makes you feel ashamed as well when you have “disrespectful” feelings?
Wow! I am proud of you for leaving the FOF; you were kind on the hot seat sometimes near Robert Burton soon to become mummified by his own dementia.
If I were you I would thank your body for not having betrayed you and instead for constantly trying to tell you how wrong things were.

100. dragon - August 27, 2009

and the many are playing with words, souls, money…

That’s virtuosity the play with:

Am I evil? Just a diversion?..

101. Agent 007 - August 27, 2009

I’m sure there are many political viewpoints tuning into the blog, so I just want to say that I don’t mean this as a political statement. But I’d like to share an alternative view about what it truly means to live a good life — to be “awake” and “conscious” and to serve others and to truly inspire others — to live well and remain strong, through good times, hardships, and tragedy — to overcome personal challenges and discouragement, and to accomplish so much in one lifetime…

“Michelle and I were heartbroken to learn this morning of the death of our dear friend, Senator Ted Kennedy. For nearly five decades, virtually every major piece of legislation to advance the civil rights, health and economic well-being of the American people bore his name and resulted from his efforts. His ideas and ideals are stamped on scores of laws and reflected in millions of lives — in seniors who know new dignity; in families that know new opportunity; in children who know education’s promise; and in all who can pursue their dream in an America that is more equal and more just, including me. In the United States Senate, I can think of no one who engendered greater respect or affection from members of both sides of the aisle. His seriousness of purpose was perpetually matched by humility, warmth and good cheer. He battled passionately on the Senate floor for the causes that he held dear, and yet still maintained warm friendships across party lines. And that’s one reason he became not only one of the greatest senators of our time, but one of the most accomplished Americans ever to serve our democracy. I personally valued his wise counsel in the Senate, where, regardless of the swirl of events, he always had time for a new colleague. I cherished his confidence and momentous support in my race for the Presidency. And even as he waged a valiant struggle with a mortal illness, I’ve benefited as President from his encouragement and wisdom. His fight gave us the opportunity we were denied when his brothers John and Robert were taken from us: the blessing of time to say thank you and goodbye. The outpouring of love, gratitude and fond memories to which we’ve all borne witness is a testament to the way this singular figure in American history touched so many lives. For America, he was a defender of a dream. For his family, he was a guardian. Our hearts and prayers go out to them today — to his wonderful wife, Vicki, his children Ted Jr., Patrick and Kara, his grandchildren and his extended family. Today, our country mourns. We say goodbye to a friend and a true leader who challenged us all to live out our noblest values. And we give thanks for his memory, which inspires us still. Sincerely, President Barack Obama “

102. Vena - August 27, 2009

I recently heard that it is being said by some in the Fellowship that Robert is planning on moving permanently to Egypt to the villa built for him by Edi_h Mi_ne. The speculation is that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to extradite him from there should there be a law suit or investigation by a government agency.

103. Jomo Piñata - August 27, 2009

Extradition is a criminal law concept. Egypt has had an extradition treaty with the U.S. since the 1870s.

In civil matters, extradition doesn’t come into play if you don’t show up to defend yourself when you get sued, chances are, you lose.

104. Jomo Piñata - August 27, 2009

[correcting punctuation error in 103, above:]

In civil matters, extradition doesn’t come into play. If you don’t show up to defend yourself when you get sued, chances are, you lose.

105. WhaleRider - August 27, 2009

*****MEMORANDUM*****

Date: The Frozen Present
To: All Upstanding Members
From: The Leecher
Re: Proximity in Paradise

After having already left my mind, this is to inform all male members that bidding will soon begin for the privilege of being situated next to me for eternity after I leave my body, since I currently have a plane to catch and this month’s American Express bill to pay off.

My current plan to be buried on Mt. Apollo; although I am toying of changing the name to Pharaoh’s hump, in honor of…well, me…and the camel who recently died of smoke inhalation since there aren’t many grass fires in the desert.

There are four spots available, (symbolizing the four spineless breaths), being at my feet, to my left, to my right, and my head lovingly touching your head.

Bidding will begin at $150,000.

Bidding for spots next to the incredibly amazing super fantastic lucky brain-dead ones next to me will begin at $75,000; and then spots next to them bidding begins at $50,000, and so forth…with the poorest deadened members being situated the farthest away from me, as has always been the case during my vainglorious reign.

I recommend that those who cannot afford it in this life time mindlessly increase the credit limit on their credit cards, since Visa/Mastercard are gratefully accepted.

If you are unable to pay off your huge debts in this life time, special arrangements can be made with Steven Dumbfuck since there are no debt collectors in paradise.

By the way, nice socks, dear.

106. Ames Gilbert - August 27, 2009

Dr Pangloss (# 80-85),
Steven Dambeck helped found Apollo Olive Oil. He and the other owners/managers offer brief biographies under the “Our Story” tab on the main page of their website. The list on that page includes Gianni Stefanini, Diana Stefanini (used to be married to Karl Werner, the FoF/Renaissance Vineyards and Winery winemaster, and herself the successor to Karl as winemaster for a time), Pablo Voitzuk, Andreas Ponoysyan, Juan Jose Domingo, and Steve McCulley. As far as I know, they are all members of the Fellowship of Friends.
They sell their oil at about $20 for 375ml (about 12 ½ oz), and also sell the mozarella cheese from the famous water buffalo herd at a similarly upscale price. They claim the oil is organic and extra-virgin (but I’d bear in mind the idea of “intentional insincerity” as it pertains to ‘life people’). I have no idea if part of his crop comes from trees on the FoF property planted on Burton’s orders, but if it does, that raises the question of inurement.

I remember Steven Dambeck up on the stage leading a meeting a few weeks after Richard Buzbee’s letter was distributed in 1994. That was the letter telling of his sexual encounter with Burton, and detailing how he’d just found out that Burton had been having sex with his son Troy from a young age. Steven Dambeck, Wayne Mott, Gunter Weninger and others on stage all admitted that they had had sex with Burton, and proceeded to tell us that what a great thing it was for them and their ‘evolution’. Maybe it was, how would I know? What I do know is that it was a major distraction from what many in the audience wanted to discuss, which was, how can a relationship between a ‘teacher’ and a ‘student’ possibly be considered consensual when Burton has all the power and his ‘partners’ are relatively powerless? All the questions along these lines were ignored or marked as ‘negative’ in some way, and Dambeck just kept on asking for questions until he found ones that suited his purposes. He was hunting for questions about morality, with special emphasis on the inapplicability of ‘life’ morality to these situations. There were also plenty of appeals for us to respect Burton’s private life, claims that his private life should be of no concern to us, and so on.

Around that time (1994), I also heard that Dambeck had stated that he would be willing to kill for Burton. I thought that unlikely, and also heard that he vehemently denied it, so that’s what I used to say when the subject came up. Since then, however, I have spoken to two people who swear that they heard him say those words, and they seem very sincere. So, without putting everyone concerned through a polygraph, we may never know for sure if he said that, and if so, if he meant it.

107. Ames Gilbert - August 27, 2009

Hey Whalerider,
The place above Marilyn Monroe’s vault in Los Angeles was just sold for $4.6 million. I’m not kidding! The widow of the guy previously buried there (face down!!) has now moved her husband’s remains to another spot in the cemetery. She needed the money to pay off her mortgage.

As soon as Burton hears of this, the reserve prices you suggest will be raised by millions. Maybe kabillions! After all, in the cult where members cannot tell the difference between price and value, no price is too high…

108. veramente - August 27, 2009

106 Ames

Around that time (1994), I also heard that Dambeck had stated that he would be willing to kill for Burton. I thought that unlikely, and also heard that he vehemently denied it, so that’s what I used to say when the subject came up. Since then, however, I have spoken to two people who swear that they heard him say those words, and they seem very sincere. So, without putting everyone concerned through a polygraph, we may never know for sure if he said that, and if so, if he meant it.
——————-
we can probably say an infinite number of stupid things in our life time.
I hope SD was just momentarily idientified with Burton.
Dangerously so, I will add.
Openly making racial remarks (see above in one of the posts) is something I cannot picture him saying nearby other members.
I am not fond of him but I knew of him and think he had a very thick crust of school personality.

A memory: SD at some functions with other males foffers standing up with a very placid look on their faces (see sheep), and hands crossed in front of their (genitals?) bellies, fingers curled inside, hiding paradoxes.

109. Old FOF - August 27, 2009

veramente 108

You saved the best of your eloquence for the last: “hiding paradoxes” !! Love the subtlety.

A MEMORY: learning that Robert Burton was a homosexual having sex with his own students (or perhaps more complexly, as Burton indicated to others: a female in a man’s body – transsexual variant?) as me an all-knowing, all-wise Center Director patiently hearing out the obviously crazy young homosexual “poor student” who was clearly deluded as he talked on and on about the sexual proclivities of “The Teacher” – when (as later heard it referred to in deprogramming literature) I ‘snapped’ – meaning just for an instant entered into the a psychological space that realized – oh no, this could be true. To be followed by a deeper snapping: OMG it IS true.

At that moment – buried very deep was the fleeing realization that I would eventually have to leave the Fellowship of Friends – this impression then quickly covered over.

Just afterward – a hushed and very long conversation with my then spouse – followed by a phone call to Robert Burton asking if this was true? A long silence – whereupon he said, “one has to play the hand one is dealt” – and asked me to “release” the student from the Fellowship. I said I couldn’t do this – as the student had told me all this in confidence. Again a long silence – then: very well, dear – pause – but this is a weakness of your type. Eventually you will understand the need to work on this feature.

110. Agent 007 - August 27, 2009

“Openly making racial remarks (see above in one of the posts) is something I cannot picture him saying nearby other members.”

That’s my impression as well. On the other hand, we usually picture racially insensitive remarks as being rather blatant and direct, such as the n word, or whatever slang term that’s used for other ethnic groups and nationalities. Sure, he would have been unlikely to go there. But many comments about “body type” often border on subtle or not-so-subtle racism.

Fof is filled with masters of subtle negativity — to the point where sometimes it’s not so subtle at all. Add an fof term and a slight laugh (as though the thing you’re seeing is so obvious it’s funny), and you can say almost anything and often get away with it. That’s part of the vanity and pride that’s fostered there. Like all organizations everywhere, it trickles down from the top.

111. nige - August 27, 2009

Perhaps “Dangerous Liaisons”…..

I have contemplated, over the past day or so, why there are contentions on this blogsite and why the fofblogmoderator and others have tried to either offer, or lay down suggestions, perhaps warnings and actual exclusions, whether temporary or permanent. Think about the FoF! A totalitarian pyramidal authoritarian entity. There is a ‘thick skin’ of ‘fit in or get out’ False Personality with actually, little or no chance of a student, who is trying to dedicate their lives to Essence Possibilities to actually evolve in the true spiritual sense of the word and then give of their True Selves to a True Humanity. And then the blog – differing views, differing ‘angles’ dependent on type, centre of gravity and past involvement of varying degrees in the FoF and the lives they are living now. So, I think, the Blog Reality leads us to think that there are less ‘buffers’, less bland putting up with each other.

Think about the Big Bang Theory. Maybe God just thought at the time…..Fuck It!!!!! Let’s see what happens when I do THIS! So, in somewhat of an infinitessimal measure of time…..INFINITE DIVERSITY.

I often think of external considering of this…..interracting with another with respect for what they are, their strengths and weaknesses and what are their spiritual goals.

Let us hope for a ‘rumbunctuous caring for one another’…..Nigel.

112. nige - August 27, 2009

110 Agent 007

Hey…..guess what? There is an ‘A007’ on the neck tag of my propane bottle at my workshop. And as regards the ‘n’ word…..nigel actually derives from ‘nigellum’, meaning “little black one”. Big joke, huh? Sort of Michael Jackson, in reverse. Celtic, fair-skinned WASP, with a name like that! Cheers and keep posting…..Nigel.

113. X-ray - August 27, 2009

67. Dr. Pangloss – August 26, 2009

Ah, that one… yeah yeah… a known dumbass…

114. Yesri Baba - August 27, 2009

“Eventually you will understand the need to work on this feature.”

He has to play the hand he (it) is dealt and you have to work on your features.
What a fuckwad he is.

115. Agent 007 - August 27, 2009

109. Old FOF… Amazing story. The pause, by the way, was RB considering whether he should have YOU removed for not immediately dropping everything and following his wishes. He considered the fallout from that (many others leaving with you), and quickly decided to let it go.

Thanks for sharing the story with us. A good one for “Best of the Blog.”

116. Agent 007 - August 28, 2009

Yesri Baba… not sure there’s a better adjective, honestly. People are swinging the doors open one by one. Every anecdote literally reveals Burton with his pants down.

Nige, yeah, I never noticed that in your name… ironic for such a fair-skinned one. And thanks, i’ll try, and you keep on keeping on, too.

whalerider, keep up the good work, too. You seem like you’re having fun, but with a definite edge to it. I like it.

117. Ames Gilbert - August 28, 2009

Old FOF (#109),
Burton may feel that he is a woman trapped in a man’s body, a 900-million-year-old goddess, or whatever––he’s entitled to his delusions if they don’t harm anyone. But, in my opinion, he uses force to get his sex, however prettily dressed up the force, or even if it accompanied with ‘gifts’. If the psychological power between two people is not reasonably equal, then if the more powerful gets the less powerful to do his bidding, force enters the equation. Even if there is no overt resistance, even if the less powerful swears he is complying voluntarily, force enters the equation. This is one of the proofs that Burton does not have a high level of being. A person with a high level of being (I’m deliberately not using the word “conscious” here) would seek consensual relationships with persons of equal power. Burton has never done that since he started the Fellowship of Friends, and very probably didn’t do so before. If he had being, he would solicit sex from people not connected with the Fellowship at the very least. But no, he preys on those weaker than him; what easier than prey who have been pre-conditioned and pressured by ‘center directors’ and other ‘friends’ to view Burton as a god with extraordinary needs and above the morality of ‘life people’?

Myself, I don’t know if he is even gay, frankly. Why the hell doesn’t he choose other gay men, if that were the case? Why has he never fallen in love (as opposed to being infatuated)? I think he gets half his jollies from using force and humiliating those who wouldn’t normally dream of having sex with him. I think “breaking” heterosexuals is his thing, and the breaking involves a rich mixture of sex and shame. I also think he likes to collect and own his sex partners, as he likes to own and collect whatever suits his whims of the moment. That is, he is a true pornographer. It is the sense of ownership and control of his boys, his ‘art’, his cars, his gardens, his students that motivates him; it is the sexual conquest of unwilling males that turns him on.

When I was interviewing some men he’d had sex with (some married), one of them told me that he had to lay naked on the floor while Burton masturbated to climax over his body. This happened many, many times. Another told me that Burton shitted on him and had him shit or piss on Burton. Of course, I was never there to see this, but I absolutely believed them, there was no reason for these men to lie to me, or even to talk to me at all. I feel they were grateful for a listener who would fairly listen and not judge them.

118. Tatyana - August 28, 2009

“Another told me that Burton shitted on him and had him shit or piss on Burton”
My Russian friend told me this too. He was there. He also said “This is like in prison!”
Is isn’t it an expression of power in prison to make someone one’s bitch?

119. Agent 007 - August 28, 2009

I recall Burton saying to me once:
“I’m not trying to coerce you.”

A few years later I ran those words through the patented Robert Burton Lie Detector and Translating Device®, (available in stores near you), and to my great surprise, he actually meant:

“I am trying to coerce you.”

At the time, the fact that he was trying to coerce me hadn’t occurred to me at all. When he said those words (actually, even without the Robert Burton Lie Detector and Translating Device®), it immediately became clear to me that he was using coercion. Can’t recall exactly what he said, something such as, “All of this will be yours if you follow me,” something like that.

Compartmentalized thinking allowed me to ignore it — because, hell, we were all going to heaven, and it’s a fairly small thing to have the guru you’re following use coercion in an attempt to have sex with you. Happens all the time, and even if it’s not perfectly normal everyone around me seemed to ignore it, and they’re all members of a “school” with a high level of being, so how could all of them be so wrong?

[just conveying some of the thought processes going on at the time.]

You, my Russian comrades, and American comrades, and English, and Italian, and Mexican, and…… You all realize you’re going through the same process, right?

Try the new Robert Burton Lie Detector and Translating Device®, available at a store near you.

120. brucelevy - August 28, 2009

117 Ames

“Myself, I don’t know if he is even gay, frankly. Why the hell doesn’t he choose other gay men, if that were the case? Why has he never fallen in love (as opposed to being infatuated)? I think he gets half his jollies from using force and humiliating those who wouldn’t normally dream of having sex with him.”

It’s quite simple really. He’s a classic sociopath.

121. X-ray - August 28, 2009

117. Ames Gilbert – August 28, 2009

‘This happened many, many times. Another told me that Burton shitted on him and had him shit or piss on Burton.’

This is fucking sick.
Hey you, beloved current students, what do you think of that?
Do you see it as a ‘conscious act’ to shit and piss on your beloved teacher?

122. X-ray - August 28, 2009

112. nige – August 27, 2009

110 Agent 007

‘Hey…..guess what? There is an ‘A007′ on the neck tag of my propane bottle at my workshop.’

Must be C-influence.

123. Another Name - August 28, 2009

Thanks Opus for your responds to Robert Scaer’s interview.

I wonder if the fof did not cover a “trauma many of us had deep down inside? A trauma to belong, to be loved to be cared for. As you remember Robert Scaer and others in this direction have stated that many of us or if not all suffer from very early trauma in our child hood…the preverbal phase before we were able to speak?

Robert with his predator tendencies ripped open some trauma’s of the boys? Look at the Russian’s who are close to Robert. They seem almost like wood, so stiff, so unemotional, so bleak. I watched them for years. Brrrrrrr, shake it baby.

The “rituals” Robert Scaer describes are EFT and EMDR….according to what I heard please correct me if I am wrong.

I would not mind doing some healing in this area with others. According to one of my friends, healing can mostly occur with others in their presence to be connected with each others frontal cortex.

Appreciate response re these issues, thanks and enjoy.

Panoritsa…guilt and shame, you sound like you have a conscience….still live.
Grief and acknowledge your pain is one big step. Be kind to yourself sweetheart.

124. Mamma Mia - August 28, 2009

Mamma mia che palle !!!!

125. Ames Gilbert - August 28, 2009

Hi Bruce (# 80-117),
I agree Burton is a sociopath, but I don’t think that model covers the full range of his mental illnesses. For me, the signature of a sociopath is the lack of conscience in any way, shape or form. So, I think the sexual deviancies are separate illnesses (I’m not putting homosexuality under the category of deviancy). I don’t doubt that there is satyriasis, which means he cannot get enough, is always seeking the next orgasm that will ‘put him over the top’, as he seeks the elusive goal that is always going to be out of reach. I see Burton’s need to sexually humiliate heterosexual males as being something else again, a separate disorder. The fact that he lets nothing stand in the way of his search for satisfaction, that is sociopathy; his total lack of concern for other people’s welfare. But it seems to me that not all sociopaths seek to sexually humiliate their partners; that may happen as they steamroller over them regardless of the consequences, but it is not a primary motive. I see Burton’s need to “break” and humiliate and dominate heterosexual males as a separate disorder because it seems to me that a regular homosexual sociopath would seek homosexual partners to exploit. Such a person is usually expert in charming and lying to achieve his ends, though he certainly might rape someone if an easier way was not possible.

Of course, this is all theory for me. You had direct experience from courtship to exploitation to finale, whereas he tried and failed to seduce me (# 7-184). Does what I say make any sense in light of your experience?

_____________________________________________________

I have an unpublished manuscript by a former follower in my hands. The author worked as a maid in Burton’s house for four years before it was converted to the Galleria. She and a helper were given one hour a day, while Burton had lunch, to clean the entire house and its contents. The man she calls ‘Tristan’ was Brian Sisler (see # 16-438 and other references).

But certain things about the Teacher’s house troubled me. He sometimes kept a syringe in the refrigerator, and there were many bottles of Darvon and Valium (which seemed to be stashed all around the house). Also I saw the empty tubes of lubricating jelly that showed up in his bathroom waste basket with an incredible regularity. I felt like a worm crawling through the most sordid details of his life. It would have been easier if I hadn’t also done his laundry, as well as the laundry of the men living with him, and therefore knew they had the terrible underwear, and he did not.

During my later years in the School, I was good friends with Tristan. He was the only student who always seemed to understand what I was talking about. He and I went through the same inner struggles, or so it seemed. When I feel like I can’t face these memories for another second I remember how pale and agonized he looked when I found him (time after time) on the floor of the back room at the Teacher’s house. How the Teacher managed to hurt Tristan so much I do not know. I tried not to think about it, but I couldn’t avoid it. I wanted my beautiful Teacher to remain just that in my mind, beautiful. But his image collapsed around me. The more I saw the worse it got. I now assumed he was homosexual, but I cannot state this as a fact because I was never a direct witness. There were times when I found as many as five men at the Teacher’s house, all claiming to be unable to go to work. What ever it was, it was a bad situation, full of anger and pain.

126. We Were There - August 28, 2009

124. Ames Gilbert

“When I feel like I can’t face these memories for another second I remember how pale and agonized he looked when I found him (time after time) on the floor of the back room at the Teacher’s house. How the Teacher managed to hurt Tristan so much I do not know. I tried not to think about it, but I couldn’t avoid it. I wanted my beautiful Teacher to remain just that in my mind, beautiful. But his image collapsed around me. The more I saw the worse it got.”

Thank you for posting this.

To current Fellowship of Friends members:

Your name on FOF rolls and your face at events is a silent and continuing endorsement of such sordid and shameful behavior.

‘Conscious being’ indeed.

127. Panoritsa - August 28, 2009

Following that amazing story of the kidnapper of the 11 year-old girl in California… it strikes me how abusers, mad people “speak in tongues of angels…”, are about to start their own church… and might manage to get some followers too…

128. Panoritsa - August 28, 2009

Thanks Ames…Really sad and creepy…

Can the unpublished manuscript turn into a published one?

129. Tatyana - August 28, 2009

This manuscript made me sick. I just don’t want to accept that there is nothing can be done with this bastard! Except waiting him to die of an old age.

130. Jomo Piñata - August 28, 2009

(# 5-111)

The manuscript is Strange Truth (1983), by Marlane Dasmann, Library of Congress Registration No. TXu-149-031: http://bit.ly/14aoM3

The subtitle of the work is “A Horror Story.”

131. Panoritsa - August 28, 2009

99. veramente

Thanks for the question. I felt ashamed when I was in the FOF. The odd thing is that I was feeling elevated when being involved and when I was not around, or when I would meet a friend who had nothing to do with the cult and I was in the company of another member I would want to hide. Keeping a secret agenda (because what could I tell others about the fof? once a friend from the university came to see what on earth I was doing in that “teaching house.” She went through the introductory meetings and when she asked why would one have to pay for “esoteric” knowledge, she was very rudely told if she did not have any money, she was not at the right place…) made me feel really bad, but I could not locate my feeling then.

I thought what I was going through was normal…. But it is not! I used to lie to our babysitters, to my colleagues, my parents, my parents-in-law, our neighbours, taxi-drivers, hotel receptionists… you name it… When I had to wait on line for the immigration upon entering the USA (always on tourist visa, no desire to stay longer, just for visits), I was terrified they would find out I was part of the Fellowship (and of course they knew… once I mentioned Oregon House, they looked at us, smiled and said: why you all guys go for Christmas to that odd place? … ).

Why could I not simply tell the truth? I guess I did not want to hear the truth back… Because when you tell people about the FOF and any other cult, they express their doubts and concerns and I did not want them to destroy my illusion…

So, yes, I still feel ashamed of having been part of that circus. But, I am trying to come into terms with it.

It is important to acknowledge that time in the FOF.

132. Vena - August 28, 2009

“When I was interviewing some men he’d had sex with (some married), one of them told me that he had to lay naked on the floor while Burton masturbated to climax over his body. This happened many, many times. Another told me that Burton shitted on him and had him shit or piss on Burton. Of course, I was never there to see this, but I absolutely believed them, there was no reason for these men to lie to me, or even to talk to me at all. I feel they were grateful for a listener who would fairly listen and not judge them.”

“To current Fellowship of Friends members:

Your name on FOF rolls and your face at events is a silent and continuing endorsement of such sordid and shameful behavior.”
———————————————————–

The above posts need to be seen by every current member.

133. brucelevy - August 28, 2009

131. Vena

Or ignored as usual. After all who are we to judge a higher cosmos.

134. DXP - August 28, 2009

124 Ames, very very insightful post.

To use fof-ish language, Robert (the guy) is a much LOWER and less developed human than most of humanity and most of those he gets to follow him. What his devotees are learning from him will be actually bad for them. Now, that is a positive lesson in itself. It is very positive to have one’s vision clear.

135. Mamma Mia - August 28, 2009

Very Good DXP, very good

136. silentpurr - August 28, 2009

From these last postings I’m wondering if Robert could also be suffering from a type of Infantilism with arrested development. Babies are sometimes fascinated with their own poo.He seems to have come from a female dominated family.I don’t remember his ever speaking about a father.

137. Ames Gilbert - August 28, 2009

Tatyana, (# 80-128),
As Jomo has said, there doesn’t appear to be much chance of anything happening in the legal domain until someone comes forward with current, fresh information about actual crimes being committed. But, consider what I feel is the unofficial motto of this blog, “Drain the victim pool!”
For example, if you felt you had the energy, from time to time perhaps you could translate some of the information or points of view you think are meaningful into Russian and post them on the Russian FoF blogsite. Maybe someone is already doing that, I don’t know. But it might save another Russian from joining or becoming a victim. You could add more of your own story if you felt up to it. For example, I personally would like to know more about Abraham Goldman’s or David Springfield’s roles in freeing the abuser of your daughter. Perhaps knowing more about this might help persuade a current member with doubts to actually take the step of leaving (I somehow doubt that FoF lawyers behaved very nobly in this case, based on their previous history and contempt for ‘life-people’).
These might be some steps towards ‘draining the victim pool’, and at any rate might be a constructive outlet for your anger.

138. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009

Dear FoF Blog companions,

I have been silently on the sidelines for awhile. Here are some accumulated observation:

79/88. Vena – August 13, 2009:

‘Someone asked about a police investigation. How about animal rights? I heard that ten of the approximately 100 water buffalo died from starvation and that one of the camels was killed in a loading or moving incident. Hopefully, this is just a rumor.’

And:

80/45. Ames Gilbert:
‘Tatyana herself, being inexorably squeezed from all sides by her ‘friends’ like a python, could not resist the pressure.’

This is no Monty Python: Report has it on very good authority (The authority spoke only on condition of anonymity given the delicacy of the subject, their not being permitted to communicate, and obvious possibilities of backlashes.) that in order to expand the Ark, two python* and two anaconda** (representing the four sacred breaths), plus six alligators (to guard the snakes) (representing the six steps of the sequence that transcends the lower self) have arrived in time for Journey Forth By Day (JFBD).

Take me to your leader:

*, **: See reference posts to follow with links.

139. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009
140. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009

More Python:

141. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009

Anaconda:
South American members preparing one as a donation:

[I think I recognize some of those faces from prior visits to Oregon House.]

It is highly suspect that the water buffalo, of which Vena wrote, were feed for these reptiles. They can also dispose of other remains effectively.

In celebration of this monumentous event there will be commissioned the painting of a copy of Eugene Delacroix’s Apollo Slays Python*** on to the ceiling of one of the rooms at Galleria Apollo.

***: See reference posts to follow with links.

142. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009

Eugene Delacroix’s Apollo Slays Python:

143. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009

Eugene Delacroix’s Apollo Slays Python detail:

144. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009

At some later date, after the cold blooded creatures have reproduced, a reenactment of that scene: Apollo Slays Python – will be performed as theater in the Theatron.

Here is an excerpt from The Age of Fable, Thomas Bulfinch, 1796-1867 (aka: Bulfinch’s Mythology):

“The slime with which the earth was covered by the waters of the flood produced an excessive fertility, which called forth every variety of production, both bad and good. Among the rest, Python, an enormous serpent, crept forth, the terror of the people, and lurked in the caves of Mount Parnassus. Apollo slew him with his arrows – weapons which he had not before used against any but feeble animals, hares, wild goats, and such game. In commemoration of this illustrious conquest he instituted the Pythian(1) games, in which the victor in feats of strength, swiftness of foot, or in the chariot race was crowned with a wreath of beech leaves; for the laurel was not yet adopted by Apollo as his own tree.

The famous statue of Apollo called the Belvedere(2) represents the god after this victory over the serpent Python. To this Byron alludes in his “Childe Harold,” iv., 161:

“… The lord of the unerring bow,
The god of life, and poetry, and light,
The Sun, in human limbs arrayed, and brow
All radiant from his triumph in the fight
The shaft has just been shot; the arrow bright
With an immortal’s vengeance; in his eye
And nostril, beautiful disdain, and might
And majesty flash their full lightnings by,
Developing in that one glance the Deity.””

(1) Apollo’s Delphic Oracle is called the pythia, as well.
(2) This statue, Apollo Belvedere, appears at various places on Fellowship property.

The archer god, Apollo, – like his twin older sister, Artemis – has, amongst noble attributes, a ferocious side. He kills the Cyclopes, the smiths of Zeus, for forging the thunderbolts that slew Apollo’s son Asklepios and the python, sacred serpent of Gaia. For these crimes, Apollo is polluted with miasma, blood-guilt, and must undergo purification. Apollo the murderer becomes god of law; bringer of plague, he is the god of medicine. In Euripides’ Eumenides, Orestes calls on Apollo as his defense attorney after killing his mother to avenge his father’s murderer. [From somewhere I remember the quotation: ‘Apollo doth bring this agony upon us.’]

Henceforth, a festival associated with Apollo: the Septeria, a reenactment every nine years of Apollo’s slaying the Python, will take place; and the Thargelia, a first-fruits spring harvest festival that includes a public purification ritual to drive away accumulated miasma. Two members of the community are chosen as pharmakoi, scapegoats, and chased out of town or stoned to death. Traditionally, these pharmakoi once were two of ‘the best’ members of the community but, at other times, they were often the poor, the blind, the crippled, or the criminal – sometimes those are ”the best’ members of the community.’

But, alas, all is not well in paradise. There is no god Apollo to keep python in check. There is much animal behaviour going on. Like this story:
Tale gator [or is that: Tail gator]:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1006_051006_pythoneatsgator.html
It seems python and alligator don’t lie down like the lion and the lamb. And, alligator guarding the python wasn’t a good idea. That would be a little like the fox guarding the chicken coop; or, is that the other way around? [I must be going mad.] It is reported that a scene similar to the one pictured in the above National Geographic News article took place near old Lake Nancy where the reptilian accommodations are located.

145. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009

All this would be funny if it were not so pitiful. Thanks for reading.

146. Ill Never Tell - August 28, 2009

80/46. We Were There:
‘While here on The Blog it is not PC to acknowledge ANYTHING positive gained from the Fellowship of Friends experience, I know for myself that the efforts I made, especially those completely foreign to my previous habits and experiences, helped me to grow in many ways.’

Yes learning to do what the ‘machine’ does not wish to do can be very useful when applied appropriately. It is a tool – an effective tool of discovery.. And, by analogy, it could be said that a hammer can be used as a screw driver, under certain circumstances, if you had to – or, a screw driver can be used as a hammer, under certain circumstances, if you had to. What I mean by this is, that by ‘doing what you do not wish to do,’ as an exercise to create that patterning and alteration of a person actually and physically (it has been proven in brain science) for the preparation of meeting the Teacher for a sexual trist – is not the correct use of the tool. And, that IS how it is used, I am sorry to say, in the Fellowship of Friends (FoF), by Robert Earl Burton – the Teacher – and the minions of enablers. Better it is to use the right tool in the right circumstances. The Fellowship of Friends, Robert Earl Burton – the Teacher – and the minions of enablers are full of hidden agendas.

Cases in point:

80/83. Jomo Piñata
‘A complementary way of looking at this: The function of the Fellowship brand of fourth-way ideology was to induce a state of learned helplessness in its adherents so as to promote their exploitation. It seems to me that “learned helplessness” links right up to the “freeze response.”’

80/117. Ames Gilbert
‘. . . he preys on those weaker than him; what easier than prey who have been pre-conditioned and pressured by ‘center directors’ and other ‘friends’ to view Burton as a god with extraordinary needs and above the morality of ‘life people’?’

‘I think he gets half his jollies from using force and humiliating those who wouldn’t normally dream of having sex with him.’

Very well put, Ames! But, not ‘half his jollies;’ almost all ‘his jollies.’

‘I think “breaking” heterosexuals is his thing, and the breaking involves a rich mixture of sex and shame. I also think he likes to collect and own his sex partners, as he likes to own and collect whatever suits his whims of the moment. That is, he is a true pornographer. It is the sense of ownership and control of his boys, his ‘art’, his cars, his gardens, his students that motivates him; it is the sexual conquest of unwilling males that turns him on.’

I agree most completely.

147. nige - August 28, 2009

Just found this among ‘My Documents’…..

A certain interpretive difference
Awaits the twice-born.
Whitman’s heaven and hell
Give way to the first’s glory.

Litter picking/placing and decoding
Delights self and humanity.
From former form absorbed, transposed
And Earth’s imperfection more than satisfies.

Nothing goes away;
Neither poverty, hardship nor necessity.
All hangs ,deliberately placed
By angels beyond the screen.

The sun’s crime overcome,
He returns from sweeping the universe
To its limit in crashing waves,
That tell of the new Eternity.

(nhp) 1993

148. nige - August 28, 2009

“Nothing you can know, that can’t be known;
Nothing you can see, that can’t be shown;
Nowhere you can be, that isn’t where you’re meant to be:
It’s easy…..all you need is love”

(John Lennon)

149. Tatyana - August 29, 2009

Ames
“For example, I personally would like to know more about Abraham Goldman’s or David Springfield’s roles in freeing the abuser of your daughter.”

We just moved back to Russia. The case was dropped.

150. Tatyana - August 29, 2009

I wish one day I can make one person think and by winning a debate wake up his reason and understanding that he must leave FOF. Never happened yet. Not by talking, not by writing. The result is always the same – I don’t want to talk about it, you are crazy and negative, you lost your higher understanding. I posted a few dialogs here. One Russian friend just deleted me from friends on Facebook. Friends no more. With those who are still my friends a condition of having a good time together – not to talk about FOF. At all.

But I can’t even persuade my friends who did leave write their stories on the blog or do something about it. I know a lady who was very hurt by her marriage with RB’s boy. She just left. Does not want to write. I know a Russian young man who was RB’s slave for 10 years. Just left. Why would he say something? Musicians who were abused and kept on salary – left with a scandal, but don’t want to make their story public.

People who are ‘in’ interpret all that in their usual manner – ‘negative lower self’. They don’t want to know truth. And this truth has a power to destroy FOF. There are a lot of “cases” out there to make a Court busy, but they keep silence. Go figure…

151. nige - August 29, 2009

148 Tatyana

Could you send me your email address? I had it but changed email provider…..Nigel.

nhprice@gmail.com

152. Tatyana - August 29, 2009

I just did

153. brucelevy - August 29, 2009

148. Tatyana

Isn’t it interesting that these ex members are the ones who so easily and fluidly justified whoring themselves as the “higher right” when they were in. Now they insist on silence about their “story”.

In some cases, after a few years, some (but very few) will be willing to tell their story. And then, again, it will be too late legally. The “shame” is what RB counts on to keep his sorry ass out of jail.

154. nige - August 29, 2009

151 brucelevy

“And all will be well, and all manner of things will be well” (Dylan Thomas)

“I have a ‘feel’ Mrs Price” (Alicia Lamas, my mother’s former home-help)

“And yet but a little time…..” (Gospel of St. Matthew)

“I can feel it coming in the air tonight” (Phil Collins)

Bruce, something is happening right under the FoFers’ noses and will be put before their faces very soon. It is no ‘mere happening’ that you and Ames are pivotal-mainstays on the blogsite…..Nigel.

155. X-ray - August 29, 2009

124. Ames Gilbert – August 28, 2009

Burton is a drug and sex addict. But how could he get prescribed drugs? Is it Ethan Harris who provide him that?
Can we get EH and AG investigated? I would like to see them both in jail, or at the very least to see their license taken.

128. Tatyana – August 28, 2009
Sing the Petition and send it out.

156. X-ray - August 29, 2009

147. Tatyana – August 29, 2009

‘We just moved back to Russia. The case was dropped.’

You have been forced to move to Russia, so case could be dropped.
And how could you be with Mauricio? He such a brainless jerk.

157. fofblogmoderator - August 29, 2009

124 & 135 are new

158. nige - August 29, 2009

153 brucelevy

See how tight this statute is…..

“California’s two-year statute of limitations in personal injury cases begin to run upon the date of the injury or when a person discovers an injury has occurred. Anyone with a valid, enforceable and collectible claim, who files one day after the two year statute of limitations period, is facing dismissal of an outlawed claim.

The discovery rule provides that the limitations period commences when the plaintiff has or should reasonably have knowledge of the injury and its cause and a suspicion of wrongdoing. Suspicion is examined from an objective standpoint; the issue is what a reasonable person would know or suspect under the facts of your case.

Under California law whenever there is knowledge of an injury, and facts which would cause a reasonable person to merely suspect negligence on the part of someone, the statutory clock begins ticking, even when an informed professionals render contrary opinions or the plaintiff truly has no personal appreciation of the fact that he/she has been injured by someone’s wrongful conduct.

Two decisions by the California Court of Appeal concerning the claims of breast implant recipients’ against the implant manufacturers demonstrate how little suspicion is necessary to cause the statute of limitations clock to begin running and the importance to consult an experienced lawyer whenever an injury has been suffered to carefully calculate when the statute of limitations clock starts ticking.”

159. Another Name - August 29, 2009

Often perpetrators do the same to their victims as has been done to them in the past. Marshall Rosenberg writes about this phenomena and it is an unconscious strategy to get empathy. (Not very effective, also it is unconscious.)

The issue with urinating and defecating could be a traumatic experience in the first 5 months of his child hood. And still numbing himself with medications like valium and Darvon….?

And on and on it goes?
And who does not want to sign the petition?
How do, you and me, numb ourselves?

More about early trauma’s and effective healing methodes.

EFT together might be even more powerful then by your self….

160. dragon - August 29, 2009

youth native drumming, it sounds healthy, it is a community based on respect and integrity:

161. arthur - August 29, 2009

A little girl was abducted and taken to a back yard to live in tents for 18 years. Psychologists say she and her kids probably have developed “complex traumas”. Thrust into a alien and foreign world full of “strange people”. They’ll need years to adjust.

Sounds a little like “robbie’s world”. People living in tents and trailers being physically abused at the least and psychologically (spiritually) abused to the Nines.

No wonder Elena is steaming angry.

162. dragon - August 29, 2009

Thank you, Arthur for your post!

163. We Were There - August 29, 2009

Can anyone share current information on the number of members of the Fellowship of Friends?

Total? US? Oregon House area?

What is the ‘feeling’ of the local economy? FOF finances?

Does anyone have more information about Robert Burton planning on moving permanently to Egypt?

164. brucelevy - August 29, 2009

163. We Were There

Young pretty Egyptian boys. A whole new untapped market. I’d prefer to see RB in an Egyptian jail rather than US.

165. fofblogmoderator - August 29, 2009

I just wanted to share with you all that the FOF has sent in another shill that started to post as Mamma Mia. I allowed the first 2 posts in, but had a funny feeling. There are now 5 posts from Ms. Mia (and another pseudonym they are using) hanging in moderation. I will not pass them through. They are vile and full of hate and this person is VERY upset that we are discussing Burton’s sex habits.

166. brucelevy - August 29, 2009

165. fofblogmoderator

Thank you.

“They are vile and full of hate and this person is VERY upset that we are discussing Burton’s sex habits.”

Excellent. Funny how the FOF teaches one how to “not identify”. It’s just morons on parade.

167. Old FOF - August 29, 2009

Mamma Mia

I’d been holding off on this so as not to reveal my pathetically low threshold of what passes for humor, But Hey even a lowly pig is entitled to a truffle now and again, so in honor of the current Howard Carter (was that the name of the first Fellowship plant?), this is for you, Mamma Mia. And I agree we wouldn’t want to “judge“ the sex life of the highest being on Earth since Jesus – that would be … harsh .. and just plain wrong …

You Can Leave Your Hat On (Burton version)
(apologies to Randy Newman)
cue music

Buddy, take off your coat…(real slow)
Buddy, take off your shoes…(here, I’ll take your shoes)
Buddy, take off your pants
Yas, yas, yas
You can leave your hat on
You can leave your hat on
You can leave your hat on

Go on over there and turn on the light…no, all the lights
Now come back here and stand on this chair…that’s right
Now squat down right here over my face – and give me the love dump
You give me a reason to live
You give me a reason to live
You give me a reason to live

Suspicious minds are talking
Trying to tear us apart
They say that our love is wrong
They don’t know what love is
They don’t know what love is
They don’t know what love is
They don’t know what love is
I know what love is

168. WhaleRider - August 29, 2009

momma mia:

C-influence wants you to kiss our ass.

169. We Were There - August 29, 2009

166. brucelevy

“They are vile and full of hate and this person is VERY upset that we are discussing Burton’s sex habits.”

Excellent. Funny how the FOF teaches one how to “not identify”. It’s just morons on parade.

Bruce,

Be fair – this person is obviously a beginning student who has not yet verified C Influence or that the Play is written.

On several occasions (in response to criticism of his ‘lifestyle’) Robert Burton said ‘tell them that if I’m wrong, C Influence will take care of me…’

It appears that C Influence wishes the blog to reveal the actions of Burton and his Fellowship of Friends, warts and all).

fofblogmoderator – thanks for the job you are doing here.l

170. dragon - August 29, 2009

mamma mia try to relax:

a special song for you and Bob:

171. brucelevy - August 29, 2009

169. We Were There

“Be fair – this person is obviously a beginning student who has not yet verified C Influence or that the Play is written.”

Yes, they have yet to penetrate the inner circle (anal sphincter) of the school.

Or as RB is wont to say “When your level of being changes you’ll see that I’m right”. One of his favorite mindless old humble expectorations he likes to use on anyone who disagrees with him.

172. Vena - August 29, 2009

Dear Fofblogmoderator,

I know you said that you didn’t want to post Momma Mia’s posts as they were so vile. I am wondering if they might strengthen the case for not joining if they were read here by someone thinking of joining or someone questioning rather to stay?

I firmly believe that kind of speech turns people away. I think it is true for us who are speaking out against the Fellowship as well. When we use excessive insults, name calling, sarcasm, obscenities, etc. to each other or the Fellowship posters we weaken the impact that we may possibly have. The facts are bad enough as they stand to turn a person of conscience away or to at least to make them uncomfortable. But the ugly name calling tends to promote defensiveness and retaliation.

173. James Mclemore - August 29, 2009

re: Mamma Mia

The thought had come to me a few times in the last couple of days that there might well be a shill arrive soon. When the blog gets as strong and focused as it has been on this page, and Burton’s sexual habits and deviations are being brought to light again, one usually shows up. Those of you who have been consistently putting up all these powerful posts should take it as a compliment. You are causing some squirming and discomfort.

174. James Mclemore - August 29, 2009

Here is a little something for Momma Mia from Res Ipsa Loquitur.
It was written in response to some other apologist from the past.

“The real amazing thing is how Robert has perverted the FOF so that many will serve as his apologists. He has so successfully isolated himself from any outside control that he is a law unto himself.

Tell me Siddiq, when were you shown the Canon of the FOF and asked to sign them as a contract with the Church? When did you agree as an article of faith that the “Teacher” was a divine messenger who’s will was unquestionable?
AT what point were you informed of Robert’s divine status as a reincarnated Goddess in a mans Body who sucked young mens cocks as a source of higher hydrogens.
How many cocks have you sucked to verify the truth of this yourself or is it an item of faith? You would not justify something you have not verified would you?

To all those that try and justify Robert’s perversion of the FOF I challenge you to find 20 to 30 young men who will volunteer to have their cocks sucked to assist you in your quest for higher consciousness. If you cannot do this perhaps because it disgusts you or because you find that the young men will not “volunteer” without some payment or coercion, then try to get over denying the facts.

There is no voluntary positive sexual exchange occurring. There is no “private sex life”. Robert manipulates poor naive youths into positions of weakness and preys upon them.There is merely an old faggot harvesting his crop of captive youths of what is more precious than their sperm, their spirituality. This man has no shame-nor do his apologists. If you had any conscience you would be ashamed to justify this continued play of crime.”

63/12/A Former Student

175. fofblogmoderator - August 29, 2009

Here are two of the posts I found warranted keeping this person off the blog. What do you think?

“When my boyfriend was one of Robert boys , happen something really
worthy to be reported here : between many beautiful of these guys there was a really ugly one that was more then willing to be one of them but because of the disgusting aspect he was always refused . This guys was so willing to “enter ” the galleria that at the end a solution was founded .
My boyfriend remember with difficulty the name of this man but he believe is X-ray or something like that . So you will ask what is this solution ? X-ray became the Burton´s toilette , every time
Burton should shit , about 2 times at day , was shitting on X-ray so
that everybody was happy . Later in according at my boyfriend memory , this X something was not allowed to enter the galleria
anymore because of his bad smell . In fact the story say that the
Galleria´s dogs start to bark as soon as he enter the gate house .”

———————————————————

Hi guys , reflect one moment , why you are here : because you are
addicted to express negativity . Perversion for itself , no other reasons,you like to dig deeply in negativity and you find a sort of masochistic pleasure in reading the worst though your brain can express .
It is very similar to sex addition where the real motive is not even sex
is pain . Writing here you suffer more , going every day to read the
worst another person can say is not a pleasure but a suffer , you are
not treating you well , with impressions , nice music etc…. the lower
part of your self try a perverted pleasure in this pain like in sex
addition . But there is a solution , when you have an impulse to write
here , resist a moment , take an hummer and with all your strength
smash it on the guilty fingers , almost instantly all the altruistic reason that bring you here , help others , avoid Robert can hurt
other people and other sort of lies , almost instantly all this stop
and you will be with all your attention ( undivided ) focusing on
the points of your fingers and in that moment is somebody of
your colleges would ask what you think about the sex practice of
RB you would look at him with the more intense expression of
amazement , well that is the real ” you” .

176. DXP - August 29, 2009

Do you think ms. mia is a real fof shill or just a really stupid loser troll? Well, either way she/he is a really stupid loser. Sad really. If this is a real fof shill then it is tragic that the cult members have become so depraved and deluded.

177. veramente - August 29, 2009

175. fofblogmoderator – August 29, 2009
Here are two of the posts I found warranted keeping this person off the blog. What do you think?
————–
thumbs down

178. Susan Zannos - August 29, 2009

Here’s a deal for you: How would you like to travel to the major countries of the world and to experience their cultures, not as a tourist, but as a part of the culture? How would you like not only to live in the oldest and most magnificent cities, but to do so as an honored guest, to be admired, adulated, have your every word gratefully absorbed as the highest wisdom? Would you like to experience the finest art and music and dance that humanity has created? Experience White Nights in Saint Petersburg? Diwali in Mumbai? Carnival and Clean Monday in Athens? Ramadan in Cairo?

All of these experiences would be free, or very nearly so. A group of citizens of the places you go to and live in will provide excellent accommodations for you, and the finest local cuisine. You will have experiences that not even the wealthiest and most powerful tourists and travelers could have, because you will be welcomed into the homes of people whose birthright is the traditions and celebrations of their culture. On a Good Friday at midnight you can experience the Greek Orthodox Mass in a mountain top monastery in Meteora on the Peloponnese. You can walk the banks of the Amur River in Khabarovsk in April as the great ice floes break loose at the end of the Siberian winter and the smallest red buds appear on naked twigs and branches. You can sail alone with only the silent boatman in a felluca on the Nile at midnight with the lights of Cairo blazing on the distant shores.
Such a deal! You don’t have to pay. All you have to do is show up. What? Oh yes, I’m talking about money. You don’t have to pay. There are other kinds of payment you say? Well, maybe yes, maybe no. I guess it depends on whether there is something called a “soul,” –which is just a fabrication of old superstitions and cautionary tales—something called a “soul” that could possibly be sold. Utter nonsense in my opinion.
So, as I was saying, you can have all the experiences I was talking about, and all you have to do is this one very small duty: you convince this group of people who gather around you to listen to your every word that you have special knowledge to give them, knowledge that will allow them to develop to a higher level of being. This knowledge, and the special practices with which to implement it, will cause them to wake up from their illusions and dreams about the world and become the equals of gods and angels. No, it’s not difficult at all. These people show up all dewy eyed and idealistic and already convinced that you are a living example of a higher level of being than anything they have heretofore experienced in their grubby human lives with their morality-ridden human families.
As I said, it’s not difficult at all. You will have the best guidance possible in your efforts to find your place in the hierarchy. You will have the opportunity to observe how people operate who are considerably higher than you in their ability to extract benefits and wealth from those below them in the power structure…You are really being awfully obtuse in your silly insistence that nothing of value can be gained in the Fellowsip.

179. brucelevy - August 29, 2009

175. fofblogmoderator

I think you made the right decision. This person is obviously an imbecile. And we’re so easily distracted.

180. WhaleRider - August 29, 2009

Vena:
Thank you for being here. I appreciate your voice.

From Wikipedia:

“Sarcasm appears several times in the Old Testament, for example:

Lo, you see the man is mad; why then have you brought him to me? Do I lack madmen, that you have brought this fellow to play the madman in my presence? {gosh, seems fitting in momma mia’s case, don’t ya think?}

~Achish, king of Gath, I Sam 21:10-15

Hostile, critical comments may be expressed in an ironic way such as saying “try not to think too hard about it” to an intellectually lazy cult follower.

The use of irony introduces an element of humor which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive but understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker’s intentions.

This sophisticated understanding is lacking in people with brain damage, dementia and autism, and this perception has been located by MRI in the right parahippocampal gyrus.”

Hmmm…sarcasm requires sophisticated understanding and doesn’t work for people who are brain damaged, demented, endlessly repeat phrases to themselves or are in the latter stages of severe semen depravation…maybe you have a point.

181. Dr. Pangloss - August 29, 2009

175. fofblogmoderator

Sure sounds like some moron outside the USA using translation software to post their infantile message. You should forward it to Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh or one of the other right-wingnuts to use use as another reason for closing the US borders.

182. Dr. Pangloss - August 29, 2009

175.

“But there is a solution , when you have an impulse to write
here , resist a moment , take an hummer and with all your strength
smash it on the guilty fingers”

You would have to be Superman to lift the hummer to smash your fingers. The things are gas guzzlers as well.

183. Ollie - August 29, 2009

163. We Were There

Some approximate FOF membership numbers:

Total worldwide: down to around 1,570 (or less). Last year around this time there were around 1,730. Two years ago around this time there were around 1,950.

Oregon House: 580 (or less)
Rest of U.S. combined: 60 (or less)

Largest centers around the rest of the world:

Moscow: 75 (or less)
St Petersburg: 60 (or less)
Ahmedabad: 50 (or less)
Tel Aviv: 45 (or less)
Mexico City: 40 (or less)
Milan: 40 (or less)
London: 35 (or less)

184. Tatyana - August 30, 2009

Mr. Mamma Mia sounds like my ex.

185. brucelevy - August 30, 2009

Wow. I guess that makes sense.

186. veramente - August 30, 2009

184
and he is mad at X-Ray…

187. More history needed? - August 30, 2009

The numners in Oregon Hous are much lower around 450? Is n’t it and the count includes people who are living in Sf and Sacramento GV and People who died recently and including RB.

People are still leaving slowly and also new young men from Russia are seen around….sadly.

My estimate number is less then 400 at this point.

Moderator thanks I can do without Mania Mia on this blog….
It is not clear to newcomers he/ she is a fofer. No added value, IMO.

188. Jomo Piñata - August 30, 2009

182/Ollie

Rest of U.S. combined: 60 (or less)

Did you mean 600?

189. silentpurr - August 30, 2009

OMG! ROBERT THE CYCLOPS?

190. DXP - August 30, 2009

Ollie, US outside of OH is only 60? Wow, what happened to all the ‘centers’ around the us? (probably a typo?) Too much info available in english? Do you know where the bulk of the money comes from? Are ‘donations’ made in US dollars?

I’m with No History Needed – no need for Mia. But thanks for passing along the content of what you are dealing with in your moderation. And for being honest and open in your moderating decisions.

191. Ames Gilbert - August 30, 2009

Hey Mama Mia,
No need to hit my fingers with a hummer. Whenever I learn something new (and usually revolting) about Burton’s sex life from someone, of course I look at that person with an intense expression of amazement. The question is, why don’t you?

Look, there are nutters, kinks and perverts all over the planet. If they don’t harm others, then they harm only themselves, let them do whatever. When a nutter, kink or pervert gets power over someone and causes them harm, then I’m interested in preventing that. The question is, why aren’t you?

Mama Mia, you don’t have a conscience. Of course you don’t understand what all the fuss is about. It’s like trying to explain the color purple to a person blind from birth. That person can get the gist, knows the word, can use it correctly in conversation with the right reference and connotation, even make jokes about it. But they can never experience it. Same with you and Burton.

Suggesting the ‘exercise’ with the hummer makes it seem likely you’re a budding ‘teacher’ yourself, taking the first hesitant steps. There are others who have followed Burton’s career path. People like James Rizzo. He started a “school” after he’d learned how from Burton, but he didn’t quite pull it off so smoothly, and got seventeen years in jail. There are half a dozen others who left and tried it the way Burton taught them, with dismal results. You want to learn from Burton? Fine, go ahead. But remember, you can only learn what he has to teach. What he has to teach is how to con people, how to gather adoring, rich and aging females around him, how to detect and exploit the weaknesses of needy people, how to bait with the Fourth Way and switch you to his religion––the worship of himself. He can teach you how to get people to work night and day to satisfy his desires. He can teach you how to gather a harem to satisfy every sexual need. Perfect. He and you are indeed a match.

P.S. Your reference to “impressions” shows that you, like Burton, really have no idea what the word means in the context of the Fourth Way. I guess you’re on Girard Haven’s intellectual ‘ladder’, huh?

192. Vena - August 30, 2009

Thanks fofblogmoderator. But after reading those two posts I agree with NHN and DXP – no value added.

193. Dr. Pangloss - August 30, 2009

189. Ames
Yes, sadly, this crop of kind of wealthy but definitely aging fag-hags, don’t even have the class and intellect to recognise an actual “artist” like like the cling-ons around Warhol, Rauschenberg, Johns, Hockney, etc. This old queer Burton has NO taste what-so-ever and has created and given nothing to anyone of any original or true worth. He only sucks like a vampire for his own immediate desires.

194. fofblogmoderator - August 30, 2009

177 & 186 are new

195. nige - August 30, 2009

Thought it might be ‘nice’ for Bobby-Poos to wake up to this…..

FRONDES AGRESTES by Ruskin, the Evangelist

Section 1.

5. “A great Idealist never can be egoistic. The whole of his power depends upon his losing sight and feeling of his own existence, and becoming a mere witness and mirror of truth, and a scribe of visions, – always passive in sight, passive in utterance, lamenting continually that he cannot completely reflect nor clearly utter all he has seen, – not by any means a proud state for a man to be in. But the man who has no invention is always setting things in order, and putting the world to rights, and mending, and beautifying, and pluming himself on his doings, as supreme in all ways.”

196. Ollie - August 30, 2009

188. Jomo Piñata
190. DXP

It wasn’t a typo in ‘183’. Outside the bizarre world of Oregon House (with 580 listed members – but I don’t know how many of them are non-paying, mere hangers-on or just names on paper), there are really just around 60 (sixty) FOF members in the rest of the US. That’s maybe 18 in San Francisco and the Bay Area, another 10 in Sacramento, some 7 in Los Angeles, 3 in Atlanta, 10 in Washington DC and some 14 in New York. Oh, and there are some 6 or so in Toronto.

The big membership numbers these days are from elsewhere: Russia and the Ukraine, India, Mexico, South America and Europe.

However, the bulk of the money that Mr Burton makes from his followers comes right out of Oregon House. At least that’s how it worked until things turned sour and gloomy a few years ago – what with all those people leaving etc. The so-called monthly ‘teaching payments’ the FOF makes their US followers pay are higher than those in any other country. Plus, there are the endless “events” that one is pressured to attend, in Oregon House or elsewhere.

A smaller but still nice and steady stream of income comes out of Europe, from the centers in the UK, Italy, France, Germany etc.

Russia, the Ukraine and some Eastern European countries, even though large numbers of members live there, have never produced much income for the FOF as ‘teaching payments’ are very low. However, these countries have proved to be real gold mines for Mr Burton in his search for fresh submissive young men. The majority of the young men that he surrounds himself with and who perform sexual and other services for him are from these countries.

197. I know - August 30, 2009

The total number of paying/on salary/exempt FOF members is 1629, valid as of July 1st 2009. Approximately 11 left and 2 passed away in the last two months. 14 new members joined in various centers (Yes…there are new members caught in the met). So the current number should be almost the same i.e. around 1630. It is hard to estimate how many are living in OH, since 50-60 members (including couples) own two houses and arrive at weekends & holidays.

198. WhaleRider - August 30, 2009

Got Lube?

Yuba County (URP!)- Officials in the small Northern Californian town of Oregon House are scratching their heads at a recent discovery on the abandoned land of the decaying winery and former home of the reclusive cult, The Fellowship of Friends.

Among other things, including a copy of Michelangelo’s David, dying palm trees, and several starving camels and water buffalos, officials found an entire shipping container of KY Jelly.

“Maybe the dry weather got to them,” one volunteer worker for the Sheriff’s department was quoted as saying.

Locals familiar with the cult had a more graphic explanation. One former follower revealed, “As crazy as this sounds, they were stockpiling supplies because they believed there was going to be a nuclear war in 2006.”

Asked why the cult might have left the country and abandoned the once thriving winery and olive oil plantation, another former follower had this to say about why the cult’s leader and spiritual authority figure, Robert E. Burton, also known as the Northern Californian Sex Guru, moved his entire operation to Luxor, Egypt, “They went in search of kinkier sex,” he said. “He used to tell us how Americans are too prudish for his taste, and I guess he eventually ran out of willing American followers. I certainly couldn’t keep up with him.”

“We don’t know what to do with the stuff,” an official from the Sheriff’s department who wished to remain anonymous said. Apparently there is a dire need for more sex education that part of the country.

One small business in Oregon County breathed a sigh of relief at the group’s sudden departure.

“It’s the best thing that ever happened to us,” said the owner of the Feather River Invitro-Fertilization Clinic. “We could never get enough sperm donors from our local population and had to import all our sperm which was costly. We used to think it was age and the high use of cannabis and methamphetamine by the men in our area that lead to such dismal sperm counts, but we were wrong. Once Burton left we’ve seen a huge upsurge in men willing to sell their semen, especially the young Eastern European men from the Fellowship who immigrated here on religious visas and stayed behind after the cult left.”

The Fellowship of Friends, in typical fashion, refused to comment.

199. dragon - August 30, 2009

For all participants of THE BLOG:

And Mamma Mia try to dance it on the Galleria, it will be epic…

200. Jomo Piñata - August 30, 2009

191/Ames

The individual Ames refers to is James Vincent Randazzo, who started the “Spiral of Friends” cult in Colorado. Plenty of information about that is available on the web.

201. fofblogmoderator - August 30, 2009

197 is new

202. Vena - August 30, 2009

Re: #179
Thanks Whalerider, ditto.

203. dragon - August 30, 2009

197. Ollie

Where are the German centers?

I think it is time to observe and to warn!

Could you be so kind and support me?

I am willing to act within the bounds of possibility of our German laws.

The FOFblogmoderator has my E-Mail adress.

Don’t hesitate to contact me.

204. Ames Gilbert - August 30, 2009

Jomo, thanks for correcting my mistake, you’re right, again.

Folks may be interested in another spin-off. Last year, a friend, an ex-follower still exploring, joined the Three Rivers School, overseen by the Awaken Foundation, of Three Rivers, CA 93271. She did not recognize The Teacher, as he calls himself, nor did he give his name, but he told her that he had been in the FoF. He claims to have achieved ‘cosmic consciousness’ at the age of twenty. He also claims to teach the pure form of the Fourth Way (including reviving ‘the transcendental Key’ and the ‘missing Link’). When I contacted him with my questionnaire (which he refused to answer), he did strongly emphasize that he fully understood my situation and my background (I had e-mailed him a brief history, including the FoF). He did sell me his book, “Truth, a Revelation for the 21st Century) for $15.
From the introduction:
“You were destined to find this book. You were destined to learn the truth. You were destined to receive this opportunity.
Destiny controls everything in this dimension. You are not sinners and you are not guilty of anything. You are innocent victims of the script handed to you by Destiny.”

The first part of the book consists of interpretations of quatrains from the Rubaiyat by The Teacher. The second part consists of letters from the Teacher to his students. Each begins, “Dear Brothers and Sisters”, and most end with “My services are at your disposal, In Infinite Love, The Teacher”.

The third part is a miscellany of subjects. One of them is headed “Safe Haven”:
“During the first part of this century we may expect significant disruptions domestically and internationally. In view of this, the School has been located in a remote area in order to provide students with a safe haven during these disruptions.
Disruptions may take various forms:
• Geopolitical disruptions affecting the health and safety of large populations–involving biological, chemical, or nuclear materials
• Geopolitical disruptions affecting the economy, arising out of the use of such materials or targeted cyberspace events
• Geological and meteorological events resulting in significant earth changes
•Natural biological events such as major epidemics or pandemics arising out of evolving viruses or bacteria.”
(The land is “a remote 57-acre ranch”)

To be fair, I have to quote from the page titled, “The Teacher”:
“There are certain qualities by which a competent spiritual teacher can be assessed. He will appear to be an ordinary person, who will have earned his own way in the world and successfully managed his personal affairs. He will have his own income, and not be dependent on the donations of others. He will not seek fame or personal recognition.

He will work quietly and unassumingly to serve others ––to provide others with the same inner benefits he himself has received. He will neither ask nor receive payment for his spiritual services. He will be able to answer questions posed by students and provide inner guidance as necessary”

If this is true (my friend said the donations were ‘modest’, and went to the upkeep of the ranch), then Burton has a hell of a lot to learn from his former student!!

You’ll be glad to know that in my back-and-forth with my friend about this organization, I mentioned the questions I felt the Teacher, or any spiritual leader, should be able to answer, and the questions that any seeker should be asking themselves (see # 23-169). After due consideration, including posing the questions to the leader and his followers herself, she decided there was no further value in staying.

205. ton - August 30, 2009

“The false teacher will keep his followers around him all the time, will not tell them that they are being given a training which must end as soon as possible and will not give them the opportunity to taste their development themselves and carry on as fulfilled people.”

http://www.fourthwaycult.net/

206. Ollie - August 30, 2009

203. dragon

The German-speaking centers? Not much going on there, pretty much a Fellowship backwater now. Most of the true believers, you could say, have long moved to Oregon House. Many others, thank goodness, have had their awakenings and quit in recent years.

So what’s left are 3 people in Munich, 12 in “North Germany” (that’s Bremen and Hamburg, but also Berlin, Gießen and a few other places), plus 7 in Vienna and 5 in Zürich. Years ago, I used to deal with those centers so I know. But have a look for yourself:

http://www.beingpresent.org/index.php?toc=Centers-Europe-and-Near-East

There are even the telephone numbers for each center so you can tell them what you think! Good luck.

207. Ames Gilbert - August 30, 2009

P.S. The Awaken Foundation’s contact officer is listed as “Edwin S. Douglas”. Does this ‘ring a bell’ with anyone?

208. brucelevy - August 30, 2009

205. ton

During one of my early visits to “the ranch” (74 or 75) I remember the conversation in the lodge that RB had just gotten off the phone with Randazzo. He called him a Judas for taking the money. He was going to send some of the bigger members to Gurneyville to try to track him down, retrieve the money and possibly pound him also. I think they went but didn’t find him.

209. DXP - August 30, 2009

Ollie, What do the actively recruiting center’s new members think they are getting into? Is there information available to them in their native language? Do they care? Is some sort of green card ‘perk’ offered (which I think has been investigated by the INS, right?)? Are the center directors paid? Thanks for all your info. The low numbers in the US are really interesting.

210. Agent 007 - August 30, 2009

Regarding I know’s comments, 197, that’s fairly obvious FOF propaganda.

The last thing Burton and the FOF enablers want is for people to believe the numbers are shrinking.

If it becomes clear to too many current followers that the numbers are shrinking dramatically, this would have two effects: People would start thinking about and questioning their own membership more readily, and also people will start talking about it more often with others. It could easily build a type of momentum, if hasn’t already.

“Did you hear? Another 150 have left in the last six months.”

“No, really? Why?”

“Well, from what I understand,…”

Ollie, I have a tendency to believe the “or less” in your estimates. Much less.

211. Agent 007 - August 30, 2009

By the way, does it affect “the negative half” of the “king of hearts” for y’all that lying and propaganda have become an institutional process in the Fellowship of Friends?

That’s awakening? WTF.

212. dragon - August 30, 2009

207. Ollie

Why should anybody talk with fanatics?

Thanks for the information, I will give it to the warning site of RELIGIO,
a German official site against the methods of CULTS.

And it is sweet to know:

The FOF has NO chance in Germany!

Best wishes from here to YOU!🙂

213. Ames Gilbert - August 30, 2009

Once when I was polishing some Danish silverware in the Blake Cottage (precursor to the Galleria), I remember Burton showing me the earliest version of the FoF accounts. They were in a red-covered notebook, and listed about fifty names and the monthly amounts they had been paying him. He also mentioned that a former ‘ranch manager’ had previously absconded with $20,000. I don’t remember him telling me a name, but I do remember that he went on quite a bit about the ‘play of crime’ and how much it had hurt him to have his trust abused. The notebook also contained lots of observations and quotations that he had collected; I suppose these went into the “Mount Carmel Journal’ and later publications; they had the same ‘one-liner’ flavor. He let me look through for about five minutes, then took the notebook back.

214. I know - August 30, 2009

I’m not a FOF member anymore, but I still have close contacts inside. I’m pretty sure these are genuine numbers.
The North Germany center is almost nonexistent. The Mexico City center has more members than specified above and Moscow has fewer than specified (as of July 1st 2009).

215. ton - August 30, 2009

213
“…he went on quite a bit about the ‘play of crime’ and how much it had hurt him to have his trust abused.”

13) irony: “A. . . perception of inconsistency, [usually but not always humorous], in which an apparently straightforward statement or event is undermined by its context so as to give it a very different significance. . . . . the audience knows more about a character’s situation than a character does foreseeing an outcome contrary to a character’s expectations, and thus ascribing a sharply different sense to the character’s own statements”.

http://writing2.richmond.edu/jessid/eng216/216terms.html

216. Ollie - August 30, 2009

209. DXP

I have no clue what new members think they are getting into. Anyone in their right mind will google around before joining, and having done so he or she should have a good idea what the Fellowship of Friends is all about behind the pretty facade. And that’s why there isn’t really anyone joining anymore. Moreover, those few poor souls that do join usually find out within a few weeks how bizarre and twisted everything is that’s on offer. And then leave. The situation may well be different in Russia and possibly India, Mexico etc. but in the US or Western Europe the FOF just isn’t attractive anymore to spiritual seekers. People can smell that it’s rotten, just by attending the two prospective meetings.

Also, since you asked, center directors are not paid. Would be nice for them, but no.

217. We Were There - August 30, 2009

200. Jomo Piñata

The individual Ames refers to is James Vincent Randazzo…

Some history –

In the early 1980’s a package containing a full set of silverware in a wooden box arrived in Oregon House addressed to Robert Burton. Burton immediately had it returned to Randazzo.

In 1988 Robert Burton proudly asked Joel F. to deliver several cases of the first releases of Renaissance wines to Alex Horn in New York City.

Horn refused the gift.

218. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

I know: “I’m not a FOF member anymore, but I still have close contacts inside. I’m pretty sure these are genuine numbers.”

lol, complete bullshit; either that or you believing something being told to you without questioning it — which wouldn’t be a surprise as that’s exactly what makes membership for all of us possible — not questioning what we’re told.

by the way, which is it? Is it “pretty sure” or is it “i know.” The two are very different.

Ollie, by the way, I’m a bit puzzled by you, as well. If people can smell something rotten in the cult, as you say, what are you doing remaining in it? I assume that’s why you think you know these numbers? Yes? No?

If you’re not still in it (and getting your information second or third hand), then how can you be so sure the numbers are true? Something doesn’t quite “add up” with you (no pun intended). . When you give definite statistics to something, as you are doing, it’s always best to give some background and specify your sources; otherwise, there’s no reason to believe you.

And yes, FOF membership numbers are relevant to the discussion here. Inflated numbers help perpetuate the impression that things are fine there.

219. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

Just to clarify… perpetuate that impression for the current followers. None of could (ironically) “sleep comfortably” as long as we thought thought for a moment that things were far from being fine.

220. Jomo Piñata - August 31, 2009

217/We Were There

Something of “trying to please Daddy” in these anecdotes, don’t you think?

221. Yesri Baba - August 31, 2009

220

Yeah, and no honor among thieves.

222. Dr. Pangloss - August 31, 2009

Apparently around 1976 Burton was none too happy when he heard that Randazzo was driving a Ferrari with a license plate reading “4th Way”, or something like that, when his “4th Way” mobile was only a dinky little Mercedes. Maybe this is why RB later got a giant Benz limo and then a Rolls Royce. I read on the internet that Randazzo had a Rolls Royce when he was arrested for child molestation. Sounds like a little phony guru pissing contest.

223. nige - August 31, 2009

222 Dr Pangloss

“The difference between men and boys
Is only in the size of their toys.” (Anon)

224. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

225. Ames Gilbert - August 31, 2009

Periodically we have discussion/speculation about the numbers of followers remaining in the FoF. I have a contact who fairly recently reviewed the members listed on the Propylia private FoF website. That contact said if one took the trouble to go through and look one at a time at each member listed, one could see many people listed who had definitely left. Yet they remained on the membership rolls and are presumably counted for purposes of propaganda. Unfortunately, the contact did not have the time and patience to go through the entire list to get a definitive total, and also did not know everyone anyway
So I guess that the accuracy of the figures that Ollie and I Know tell us depends on the source. Only someone working directly with the membership numbers in the office would actually know (and they’d have to be disposed to tell the truth), or maybe someone with a membership print-out at the Gatehouse. What I do know is that Ollie’s numbers only add up if “rest of the world” is around 585. That seems a lot for Asia and S. America and odd places like Egypt.

Ton (#80-215 or thereabouts),
Yup, often I have to laugh out loud at some of this stuff… Mother lodes of irony!

226. X-ray - August 31, 2009

175. fofblogmoderator – August 29, 2009

Thanks fofblogmoderator.
Whoever he is, he is a true product of Robert Burton’s teaching.

184. Tatyana – August 30, 2009
Could be.

My question ‘121. X-ray – August 28, 2009’ has been answered.

218. Agent 007 – August 31, 2009
I think the numbers are inflated. They can’t afford to show tendency of declination.

227. fofblogmoderator - August 31, 2009

224 is new

228. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

Ames, X-Ray Vision,
Yes. The topic of membership numbers, by the way, overlaps into another topic — Fellowship of Friends Financial Fraud.

Most people must (by now) agree that it’s very unlikely that the FOF presents an accurate accounting of how much money it raises, where the money is spent, how the money is raised, and so on.

Same thing with membership numbers. The enablers and the Sociopathic Enabled One have absolutely no motivation to release numbers that approximate the truth. Numbers are everything when it comes to propaganda.

229. Old FOF - August 31, 2009

Ollie, More History Needed, I Know

Very interesting.

If you use the Oregon House ratio between the More History Needed estimate (noted that you said less than) and the Ollie “roles” data as 400 / 580 = 69%.

69% X 1,570 = 1,083 overall members. might seem closer to reality. This is of course is a WAG – but hey fodder for us rule-of-thumb guys.

Then factor in that there has apparently been an accommodation made that the regular fees for students are not for the presently strictly required, except for the “pay by the glass” event fees. And that many Oregon House located members pay minimal if any fees, and non-North Americans have traditionally had very low fees.

The current thousand students might generate more like some fraction of those say 15 years ago. The real shocker being that there are only 60 students in North America outside of Oregon house. And the debt load requires regular servicing ….

I wonder how long this house of cards will hold.

Of course the one thing you can count on is – the primacy of Robert Burton’s tending to his own self interest.

230. JonB - August 31, 2009

007

“Ollie, by the way, I’m a bit puzzled by you, as well. If people can smell something rotten in the cult, as you say, what are you doing remaining in it? I assume that’s why you think you know these numbers? Yes? No?”
————————————————–
There are quite a few that simply cannot leave because they are still tied in financially to the FOF or to the current FOf students clientele. Another one is owning a home where the tenants are students.
So it comes back to the money, livelihood and survival.

231. X-ray - August 31, 2009

My guess is that real numbers are below 1000.

And if I would be a congressman, I would push to make a law of a public castration for rapists such as Mauricio, who raped a 13 years old girl, and let them spent the rest of their life in prison, where they would suck cocks of the bullies, and have their asses get teared apart on daily basis.

232. nige - August 31, 2009

231 X-ray

By Ben Dover and his gang?!?!?…..Nigel.

233. X-ray - August 31, 2009

By whoever.

234. nige - August 31, 2009

231 X-ray

And, personally, I would have REB’s ‘tackle’ SLOWLY removed and fed to him with vinegar and hot-chilli sauce on them…..Nigel.

235. Old FOF - August 31, 2009

X-ray 231

>My guess is that real numbers are below 1000.

Speculation – but fully agreed. Plus, lower revenue than this might imply.

I “calculated” (speculated) for-myself-mostly a couple years back here on blog that the tipping point financially was something like (can’t remember what exactly wrote then) but about 850 membership required – just to “break even” including paying the creditors.

So the tipping point may have arrived – or will do so soon – that is the tipping point for supporting the appearance of the current structure – prior to (my view) the coming non-California-centric decentralization. Though knowing how Robert Burton works, there may be one secret safe house in California for him.

The lovely eccentric and talented Hxrxold Wxrk (husband to Stxlla) had calculated many years ago that the Fellowship of Friends lost about 25% of it’s students every year – to be replenished by that many plus more – during the then growing phase. These rough figures held for many years – used to check as a matter of curiosity with my office contacts. But agreeing with DXP 209 / Ollie 216 that this annual leak will not likely be replaced. This is the dying phase.

Hard to see that the current structure holding too much longer. Then (again my view) to become possibly even more complex, corrupt, and dangerous.

236. 411 - August 31, 2009

In my opinion it doesn’t matter how many people leave the FOF. Whoever is left will automatically feel like the student body is only becoming more and more cleansed. I was there. I’ve had those very thoughts and spoke those exact words to others when, while still a member I would witness a “strong student” suddenly leaving the fold. When someone leaves you think to yourself; “wow, s/he just threw away 20 years of work”. You also tend to feel that it’s best if the weak ones leave. It’s some very scary thinking because the whole time you’re contemplating these thoughts you have to block out any thoughts of Robert having sex with dozens of straight men who are all his “students”. If you don’t block out those thoughts your head will explode. I don’t care what kind of imaginary hand Robert was dealt, he’s full of shit when he says c influence wants you to have sex with him. Can you imagine trying to use that line in the real world??

The sheep that follow him have no problem emulating him in every which way. If Robert buys a certain breed of dog, they all buy that dog. If Robert likes a certain opera, they all go see that opera. If Robert likes to travel to Egypt, they all travel to Egypt. If Robert likes to coerce young men into having sex with him, well….. that might be going a little too far, huh gentlemen?

P.s check out Susan Z’s very accurate description above at #178 of how the FOF entices it’s recruits.

237. Panoritsa - August 31, 2009

The policy of hiding the “numbers” in all fields says again something about the regime of fear in the FOF. A few years ago, one could view the number of “students” per centre. This was taken away. And when a member leaves, their name sits there for at least three months. If one leaves and wants their name removed one needs to specifically ask for this.

But I do not hear of that many people leaving the last months. There are the members who have interests of course. But this does not give anyone an “excuse” for staying and supporting the abuse and corruption. There are many members who have left and opened new doors in their lives, even though they still have property and houses to be rented. Many members stay because they will lose their network of “friends.” Especially the elderly people who have nowhere else to go, as many of them have been neglecting their families for years.

Whatever is left in centres seems “happy” with coming together and socializing. They pay some monies to receive “travelling teachers”, have buffets and dinners and chat. I mean, there is nothing wrong about all this, but one pays to be together. And the monies goes to support a very sick institution.

I also hear of Russian current members who profit from their membership in the FOF. Some seem to be “clever” enough and begin their own “schools”, give lectures and make some monies… The form is based on Burton’s structure… and it seems to be profitable…

238. Dr. Pangloss - August 31, 2009

230. JonB

In other words, it is the “lower self”, the “king of clubs” that keeps so many members in. Can’t quite leave the watering hole, even if the water is polluted and infected. I’m not judging, I just find it ironic that this is what it comes to after all those years of working to guided by the “steward” and “king of hearts”.

239. I know - August 31, 2009

Agent 007
“Most people must (by now) agree… ” do you know most people?
You are a real moron…

240. Ollie - August 31, 2009

218. Agent 007

To clarify: I was an FOF member for almost 20 years but left in the spring of last year. (And goodness, am I glad that I’m out but that’s a different story.) I still have some contacts to people in Oregon House and elsewhere, and this is how I occasionally check how many people there still are. (I can’t tell you my exact source and can’t prove its correctness either but in the end, it doesn’t really matter to me if the numbers are off by 10 or 15 percent.) There’s no doubt that the FOF is a dying organisation, ruled by fear (as Panoritsa also wrote) and spinning in ever smaller circles around itself. It doesn’t have any vitality anymore to attract new followers but, for a number of reasons, lots of existing members keep holding on to the rotting core. In a way I understand it as I’ve done the same for a number of years. It spookily feels “safer” to hold on to a corpse than to hold on to nothing at all.

241. X-ray - August 31, 2009

Let’s see what happened in the FOF, when rapist Mauricio committed his crime.

Instead of keeping him in jail, and bringing him to trial, Burton, FOF’s officials and many students, have actually supported him, doing every thing they can to let him out and escape the trial, while raped 13 years old girl with her confused, manipulated mother has been sent to Russia, like a luggage, which magnified their shock and pain.

Not enough the terrible act of abuse has been done, which will leave an everlasting scar on that girl psyche, they are now forced to leave their lives, every thing they used to, and run to Russia to start all over again, just because the rapist was a ‘Robert’s boy’, while this ‘Robert’s boy’, who is a truly dangerous person to society, especially to little girls around, is enjoying Galleria, Ross Garden, big fat beefsteaks nicely cooked for him, and red wine at wine cellar dinners twice a week.

What kind of people are these? Are they not criminals? Are they not a partners in crime with that rapist?

Current students,
If you don’t see the obvious, you are truly lost. You are a hopeless biological formation.
If you see that, and pretend like you do not, justifying it, supporting it in any way, than you no different than rapist Mauricio, and you are criminal like him.

242. dragon - August 31, 2009

Ollie

why should an outsider believe the numbers and “facts” given by the Blog?

I NEVER believe written and spoken numbers/facts completely.

There is only one way: Try to do research by yourself.

Read between the lines.

The FOF IS NOT DEAD, it is still alive and it is still alive in Germany esp. in a nice city (not mentioned in your list with the phone numbers) near the western border of Germany.

If you speak to a child: Go out and phone Santa and he will bring you all you can eat!

You will see: It is not the ALL!🙂

243. nigel harris price - August 31, 2009

It has been written many times (by Rodney Collin, various Eastern and Middle Eastern mystics and several others of the ‘revered’ 44 have included it in their writings) that the Self cannot hold on to Itself but must Give, in humanitarian ways. To be selfish, as we see Burton being, is to diminish and, ultimately, to kill the Self. What sort of evolution, therefore, does the FoF promise?…..Nigel.

244. nige - August 31, 2009

243

Oops! My dad’s computer still had my old moniker…..Nigel

245. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

239. I know – August 31, 2009

For what it’s worth, it sounds like you’re tenaciously defending something that you want to believe has some good in it. And you’ll believe anything you’re told if it helps you hold on to the illusion. I know how it feels!

There’s absolutely a type of group think in ex-cult members, and here it is… Many of us will acknowledge it was a good idea to LEAVE the cult, but many of us will only reluctantly acknowledge there was any mistake in joining.

“We” (some of us) want to believe it was a good thing. We don’t want to believe that our decision to join the cult was one of the biggest mistakes — if not the biggest mistake — of our lives.

So when “we” (some of us) think back on the experience, we cling to positive memories, and reluctantly think anything critical of it. If it makes anyone feel any better, it’s a fairly common experience for other cults as well — even for those cults with violent endings.

246. brucelevy - August 31, 2009

236. 411

Very nicely said.

247. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

Ollie: “It spookily feels “safer” to hold on to a corpse than to hold on to nothing at all.”

Yes, and spookily, sometimes it feels safer to hold onto to the corpse even after we leave.

What I think is rarely discussed on the blog is that people within the cult are often critical of Burton and critical of “the school.” Sure, not during formal dinners, but the topic of conversation is often walking that fine line of being critical of Burton without being so critical as to suggest he’s a malignant narcissist running a malignant organization.

I believe this type of criticism is a mechanism to help some people believe they’re making a choice by staying… i.e., we know all of this stuff about “Robert” — how he has sex with so many young male followers, and how there’s something wrong with the way the money is being handled, and how the ideas are particularly strange, and so on. But we’re staying anyway. We call it “relativity” or “sticking to our aim”, whatever, give it a pretty FOF term, and we’re fine.

We take our weakness — that we’re staying and supporting something malignant — and turn it into what we believe is a strength.

248. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

“In my opinion it doesn’t matter how many people leave the FOF. Whoever is left will automatically feel like the student body is only becoming more and more cleansed.”

I only partially agree with the first sentence. The issue, in my opinion, is that the FOF is willing to lie about the numbers (including finances), because statistics do matter. And whether there’s any direct legal ramifications from any set of numbers, numbers do influence people. They have a psychological effect.

I disagree with the assertion in the second sentence above. When any one person leaves, it always makes people think, whether they acknowledge that or not. In a group-think setting, few people are likely to stand up in front of many people and acknowledge their concerns. When someone left, it always made me think. Maybe I was different, but I don’t think so.

249. We Were There - August 31, 2009

242. dragon

“why should an outsider believe the numbers and “facts” given by the Blog? I NEVER believe written and spoken numbers/facts completely… There is only one way: Try to do research by yourself.”

Thanks for contributing.

I agree – withhold judgment, observe and try to verify for yourself.

As well, try to understand that many of those posting here gave years (many 20 +) to a man and an organization that they completely trusted, and that they now are convinced betrayed that highest and most sacred trust.

And we would like our friends who are still members to know that they still have options…

I am interested to learn what your research uncovers!

250. Jomo Piñata - August 31, 2009

245/Agent 007

“We” (some of us) want to believe it was a good thing. We don’t want to believe that our decision to join the cult was one of the biggest mistakes — if not the biggest mistake — of our lives.

There is truth in what you say, yet your statement also overlooks a dimension of the experience of having been recruited into a cult.

First of all, most people don’t realize they were recruited. They “made the decision to join.” They don’t understand that they were manipulated into joining. They were, for the most part, brought into a very controlled environment, were made to keep still through series of lengthy, scripted presentations aimed directly to induce them to join, and were unwittingly conscripted into living theater without ever being told that that was what was going on or that they had a particular role with particular constraints. Remember, if I can control your behavior, I can influence what you believe.

Secondly, it is a truism that people are recruited into cults by following all the “right” emotional cues. I know someone who was recruited into the Moon cult. An aspect of that cult’s practices was “love bombing.” This individual had suffered deep emotional wounds, and as part of the recruitment the members sang a song to him, telling them they loved him, AND USED HIS NAME IN THE SONG. It sounds hokey, but the fact is, I have no doubt that at the moment that event occurred my friend felt loved and intuited the possibility of healing his wounds. For him, it was absolutely RIGHT to follow that emotional cue.

That’s not to suggest that it was appropriate that he was recruited into the Unification Church. It IS to suggest that people who join cults are often making, to them, subjectively sound decisions on the basis of having been unethically manipulated by specific techniques without their knowledge or consent. My experience is that this occurred in the Fellowship.

251. brucelevy - August 31, 2009

This man holds the highest Scientology rating (OT VIII).

252. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

“There is truth in what you say, yet your statement also overlooks a dimension of the experience of having been recruited into a cult.”

Not overlooking that.

The two ideas are not opposed to one another — that we can make a serious mistake and be aware of that and acknowledge our personal responsibility, but also be keenly aware that we were recruited and manipulated. Both are true.

253. Jomo Piñata - August 31, 2009

Got it.

254. Another Name - August 31, 2009

Often perpetrators do the same to their victims as has been done to them in the past. Marshall Rosenberg writes about this phenomena and it is an unconscious strategy to get empathy. (Not very effective, also it is unconscious.)

The issue with urinating and defecating could be a traumatic experience in the first 5 months of his child hood. And still numbing himself with medications like valium and Darvon….?

And on and on it goes?
And who does not want to sign the petition?
FOOD FOR THOUGT: How do, you and me, numb us/ ourselves?

255. Another Name - August 31, 2009

Dear Agent 007

If people believe the numbers or not from this blog….that is up to them.
The numbers I see here are pretty correct. The stories I hear, what I see OH is pretty clear. I do not believe, I see and hear…

Many people of salary, events are not full…many peole do not have to pay. Etc, etc, I know people from within the fellowship read the blog.Numbers here is not research and yes it is important to know where your info comes from.

Time will tell you, me and us that the numbers are only going down.
Mark my words and maybe I am wrong…could be, time will tell. I feel freedom in not having to be right…..

256. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

Another Name,
Yep, so true. And freedom is being able to discuss it, and argue about it and have honest disagreements, misunderstandings, agreements, understandings, etc., and not be part of an organization that removes participants who engage in such conversations, or shuns those who express their opinion.

It’s obviously a topic (the numbers) that feels more relevant to me than it does to a lot of people — I get that. What the numbers actually are — I don’t know — but I think the likelihood that the FOF lies about the numbers is a relevant topic. In my opinion, it overlaps into all other discussions — and it underscores that lying is part of the culture in the FOF.

By the way,… having talked with some friends out in the world who did their own research on the FOF, and who’ve confronted me about it, I’ve been fortunate to have received some very sharp and negative feedback about some of my former neutral or even positive attitudes about the cult. Both this blog and these friends have been really helpful for me in recognizing how group think had infiltrated my attitudes. It’s been part of the healing process.

Part of that healing process involves discussion and disagreement. While I completely agree with the removal of people on the blog who go off on bizarre tangents and bring constructive conversation to a halt, let’s keep the talk going — even when it does involve some unpleasant disagreements. That is a huge part of the fof culture — to never argue, never have opinions, never disagree — when the topic of conversation is the FOF, with two big Capital F’s.

257. Panoritsa - August 31, 2009

And the question again is why but why does one think that Burton was/is the only exception to that rule of abusive gurus/teachers? Why on earth Burton with his lust for young flesh satisfied as the decades go by, why is it that you believe he is a good leader, a fair teacher, someone who can teach you about higher ideas and ideals, when he messes up all that is human.

What is it that makes him different, why would one put him higher than one’s common sense? (wish someone had asked me those questions a few years ago…oh who knows, maybe I would have avoided them…)

258. Opus 111 - August 31, 2009

257

And the question again is why but why does one think that Burton was/is the only exception to that rule of abusive gurus/teachers? Why on earth Burton with his lust for young flesh satisfied as the decades go by, why is it that you believe he is a good leader, a fair teacher, someone who can teach you about higher ideas and ideals, when he messes up all that is human.

What is it that makes him different, why would one put him higher than one’s common sense?

If anyone knows how to reach members by email, this passage by Panoritsa is very worthwhile sending, and may help loosen the scales off the eyes of a few more members.

One at at time…

259. arthur - August 31, 2009

About the time Robert Burton saw stars at noon, the man that kidnapped that girl in South Lake Tahoe did too. Early 70’s must have been big for seeing stars at noon.

I was living thousands of miles away reading Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Collin and Nicoll. The main characters of this “play”.

In these books was the notion that “You Need A School”. And, that your magnetic centre would recognize a real school. Ha!

While reading the East/West Journal a magazine of the times (seeing stars at noon) an advertisement stated that a Ouspensky/ Gurdjieff “school” was opened in Pennsyvania. Wow! Me got to go.

Well, I found the queers (odd ball) types in Houston, Texas instead. Magnetic Centre malfunctioned. “we joined” all the “I’s.

And also, it is “odd” that Robert Burton and that man from Antioch are both 6’4, blued eyed and teach their concubines to have that “strange eye” condition of being in a trance.

“I” was not recruited into the “fellowship of friends”. My Magnetic Centre malfunctioned probably because it was criminal in and of itself and could not see it’s reflection in the Fellowship of Friends.

Oh, does Bobby still Levitate? Or, does he still blow smoke while looking at the stars at noon?

260. arthur - August 31, 2009

And also, isnt “odd” that Robert earline Burton “asp of the nile” and that fellow from Antioch both started their “fellowship” in and around Antioch and Martinez? They are even starting to look alike.

261. Another Name - August 31, 2009

Thanks 007

Yes, there might be some manipulation with numbers going on.

Although Amsterdam has 28 members as of now and no new young women nor men. All oldies and mostly foreigners.

The centre “feels” it.

London has 36 oldies with A Ll, who maried another young women with two teenage girls. ( I think the women is from South America or the Philipines

Please can we do anything about that? Do we need more victims of sexual abuse on this earth?

And I agree, disagreement is healthy as long as we are able to “hear” each other.

Arthur I agree …so scary….3 women so damaged….so traumatized….
How can we as a culture heal all these victims? Prevention is the best maintainance IMO.

262. Another Name - August 31, 2009

For Panoritsa and all of us and everybody who benefit from this article

It related to quilt and shame and has “practical” tools.

263. nige - August 31, 2009

To not be too flippant, I bet Robert burns when he hears this poem – totally against his Ark (crap) concept (and not a little to do with some parts of the GF site!). Actually this is the 250th anniversary year of Scotland’s National Poet…..I only know because I watched the Edinburgh Military Tatoo this evening on British television (real men and women performing, might I add)…..Nigel.

Is there for honest poverty,
That hangs his head, and a’ that!
The coward slave, we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a’ that!
For a’ that, and a’ that,
Our toils obscure, and a’ that;
The rank is but the guinea’s stamp,
The man’s the gowd for a’ that!

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin gray, and a’ that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine,
A man’s a man for a’ that!
For a’ that, and a’ that,
Their tinsel show, and a’ that;
The honest man, though e’er sae poor,
Is king o’ men for a’ that!

Ye see yon birkie ca’d a lord,
Wha struts, and stares, and a’ that;
Though hundreds worship at his word,
He’s but a coof for a’ that;
For a’ that, and a’ that,
His riband, star, and a’ that,
The man of independent mind,
He looks and laughs at a’ that.

A prince can make a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, and a’ that;
But an honest man’s aboon his might,
Guid faith he mauna fa’ that!
For a’ that, and a’ that,
Their dignities, and a’ that,
The pith o’ sense, and pride o’ worth,
Are higher rank than a’ that.

Then let us pray that come it may –
As come it will for a’ that –
That sense and worth, o’er a’ the earth,
May bear the gree, and a’ that.
For a’ that, and a’ that,
It’s coming yet, for a’ that,
That man to man, the world o’er,
Shall brothers be for a’ that!

(Robert Burns, born 25 January, 1759)

264. Another Name - August 31, 2009

Forgot to send the link on the article of guilt and shame.

http://www.4therapy.com/consumer/conditions/item.php?uniqueid=6740&categoryid=565

265. Yesri Baba - August 31, 2009

“P.s check out Susan Z’s very accurate description above at #178 of how the FOF entices it’s recruits.”

Yeaaaaaa! WOO…Wooo…WOOOO. Whooopeeeeeeeee!

266. Yesri Baba - August 31, 2009

“It spookily feels “safer” to hold on to a corpse than to hold on to nothing at all.”

Hey, it works for me.

267. Josiane - August 31, 2009

(Don’t remember where I heard this–either on the blog, at a meeting or in the Thoughts from the Teacher):
Just around the time I left FoF (18 months ago) Robert did acknowledge that there were fewer members and his comment was: “We are fewer but we are better”, implying that those who left were a form of payment for those who are staying. I think he can afford to say things like that in front of a room full of people because said people are so brainwashed that they will even turn this into something positive: “We are the chosen ones” type of attitude.

Once my husband was giving a ride to some visitor and the visitor asked him why I had left the school. “I don’t know,” my husband replied. And I think he was sincere. Even after all our talks and the various revealing material I put in front of him, he still does not get it. And that’s why Burton can feel perfectly safe saying anything he likes and behave the way he wants, because he’s got them until his spell and he knows it. Not that the blog is not doing a fantastic job at informing potential and existing members of the facts, but there will alwaysbe the hard core that will never get it (IMO)–and I am not talking about the enablers, but about the majority of the hard core who still believe that FoF is a school of awakening.

268. Crouching Tiger - August 31, 2009

Another name 261.

“London has 36 oldies with A Ll, who married another young women with two teenage girls. ( I think the women is from South America or the Philipines.”

AL is still married to the best of my knowledge, although his wife lives in California. So how could he remarry??

269. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

Regarding shame and guilt… I think they’re an outgrowth of the grieving process. It’s as though we’ve lost a friend, or a loved one has died. Grieve, but move on as quickly as possible. I’ll just speak for myself: If I’m still feeling shame and guilt when I hear the naked (sorry, poor choice of words) about Burton and the FOF, then it’s because — yep — I still place my identity in the organization. I still feel myself there. I still think it’s part of me, and that I’m a part of it.

Ah, there’s the biggest elephant in the room throughout my stay in the FOF. What was my biggest identification? Bingo: “the school”.

Get rid of that “identification” (which, by the way, is not an idea exclusive to the so-called fourth way), and you get rid of the shame and guilt. It’s not you.

270. Agent 007 - August 31, 2009

naked truth, lol.

271. ton - August 31, 2009

arthur
“Oh, does Bobby still Levitate? Or, does he still blow smoke while looking at the stars at noon?”

he ‘blows’ but it ain’t smoke

272. JonB - August 31, 2009

238. Dr. Pangloss – August 31, 2009

230. JonB

In other words, it is the “lower self”, the “king of clubs” that keeps so many members in. Can’t quite leave the watering hole, even if the water is polluted and infected. I’m not judging, I just find it ironic that this is what it comes to after all those years of working to guided by the “steward” and “king of hearts”.
————————————————–

I did not write many , I wrote “quite few”. There are other reasons why people stay. In general there are three main categories:
1) The believers, Josianne wrote about them in 267.They are usually extreme in their views and RB is their GOD, they also believe in boobamises (ghosts and fairies), they will remain to the end and will close the gate all at once.
2) Those that like to ‘PARTY’, I mean receptions, dinners, A’doro, Meetings for them the social aspect of the school is like a drug, they need the injection to get the high. For them it is a high level Country club.
3) the third are the ones I mentioned in 230.
I think that most of them fall into category two, but few have 1,2 and 3 in them, very complex I suppose.

273. Another Name - August 31, 2009

Good question, crouching tiger, maybe I was misinformed, maybe I was assuming. The point is, if he lives with a wife with two teenage daughters, married or not? And if I am misinformed….I hope so.

274. Tatyana - August 31, 2009

Imagine you are lonely and scared, can’t handle your life at the moment – maybe you are pregnant, or a single parent of 2 little children, or can’t find a job and do not know how to provide for your family and where to turn for help. At these times it is very likely you meet someone who will look like a friend, you will be grateful even if he gives you $10, won’t know how to thank him for that! This person can be anybody and unfortunately it can be a very bad person, who can take advantage of you, sexually abuse you, damage you. But because you are already suffering so much, you won’t understand what is going on, you won’t know what to do. You can confuse sexual abuse for love and need for intimacy.
I think, similar situation can happen when you are a child and your parent who is pervert trying to sell you his lust for love. You care for this person, you love this person and believe that this person is very kind, because he speaks kindly to you, you don’t want to harm him in any way or cause him any pain, so you submit and do what he wants you to do. And when he asks you to keep it as “our little secret” you don’t tell anyone, even though you want to talk about it, because you don’t feel comfortable with what is going on.
I think some RB’s boys are falling into this category of molested children. They think Robert is very kind and good man and they keep his little secret from their friends and wives. They do it because they love him. It is very hard for people in this situation to admit that the person they love is a pervert and is doing a very wrong thing.

In FOF people live in the extreme emotional state, always stressed, always shocked, nobody really knows how to comfort someone and what normality is, pain-free normality. I am so glad I can relax and just be myself without feeling that I must do something extra, push myself, do what the machine does not want me to do. I do a lot though – I work full time, sometimes overtime. I have 2 teenagers with a load of problems. I have little income and little space. I don’t need more pressure. I don’t need people grabbing me by the nose. I don’t need people telling me how stupid I am. I don’t need people shutting me up as if anything I feel, think or say is insignificant. Blaming me for extremity or violence. I am not extreme and I am not violent. I can be if provoked, but I try not to. And I am not looking for a provocation.

I am glad and I wish people who are stuck in FOF can be in my place – to have a normal life. Be functional, be self-sufficient and be safe.

275. Josiane - September 1, 2009

272. JonB

Thank you for the 1) 2) 3) summary because I have (had) friends in all three categories. Come to think of it, Category 3 is my favorite one.

276. Tatyana - September 1, 2009

A personal story by “Michael” – a survivor of clergy abuse

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mich01.htm

“I did not want to go, but my mother thought it would help me. She thought it would help me get over my father’s death. I was scared to tell her the truth. How I was scared of him and the way he looked at me. I did not want him to touch me this time. I hated how he smelled. “Why must I go, if I stop seeing him will I grow up abnormal”?. I will walk in late and sit in the back and perhaps he will not notice. Nervously, I walked in and he immediately spotted me. He interrupted the service and called out my name, and thought I now am trapped. I embarrassingly walk up to him, while the congregation gazed at me. He announced me to the congregation as his “little helper.” While everyone applauded, he gave me my prescription of hugs and a kiss on my neck. I became his third alter boy by default. His power over me was frightening. His power over me was hypnotic, and I was at his beckon call. I did not want the service to end because I feared what would transpire after his grand performance on stage. He watched my every move with his bloodcurdling eyes and would give me a smile when I glanced at him. After the mass he would wait until everyone left and would walk outside with me.

The church was empty and alone. I found myself trapped by the priest. He would paralyze me with his words, making it difficult to leave. He insisted that he accompany me to outside despite my assuring him that I would be fine. He stated, “I would not want my prized boy getting into any trouble.” As I walked out with him, I looked up into the sky and noticed the moon and stars. I wanted so badly to have my father come down from the heavens and take this man away and to grab him only to drop him into the middle of the ocean. I wanted a set of wings so I could fly to heaven and be with my dad who left me a couple of years ago. I wanted to hold hands with my dad in a forest, listening to the soft sounds of nature. I wanted to be anywhere but where I was.

As we walked outside the night winds arrived transforming the priest into a beast. His heartbeat would race and blood would rush as if he were a vampire on hunt, thirsty for fresh blood. He was hungry. And behold in front of him was his feast. It was as if he turned into an adolescent himself, where his entire body yearns to explore another’s sexual being. He had no boundaries. He concealed his vows in a locked drawer in his heart where no one would break his secret. At times he would fret at the thought of being caught, but his ego prevented him from stopping his ravenous hunt. He would sweat profusely knowing what he was doing was wrong. He would find himself losing control because the lure was too strong. He would lean against me on his car and mark me with kisses. I felt his body press upon mine. I could hear his breathing become more intense. I stood frozen and succumbed to this beast’s desires. He began to lick my neck as if I was sugar coated, a lollypop. He kissed me and asked if he could bring me to his castle. I was trembling and said, “not tonight.” I did not want to disrespect him but I was afraid of the cage. He would whisper in my ear, “I will love you even more tomorrow”. Tomorrow came and in his castle he would again lock his vows in his drawer and begin the ritual of sexual experimentation. I stood lifeless while he feasted upon my body. I was only thirteen.”

277. Old FOF - September 1, 2009

JonB , Josiane (love both your names – song: Sloop John B)

>Thank you for the 1) 2) 3) summary because I have (had) friends in all >three categories. Come to think of it, Category 3 is my favorite one.

Maybe even a 4th? – sincere people who have discovered the fraud/trap they got caught in and are working their brain and soul through it – will come out in time. ??

278. veramente - September 1, 2009

274 Tatyana

Tatyana, it’s really great the you are talking and getting all those feelings out. It seems like you are recovering yourSelf and healing fast!

279. Dr. Pangloss - September 1, 2009

OK, so living in Oregon House being “employed” by FOF is basically like being on the government dole, welfare, etc., or maybe closer to being an indentured servant. Then there is the class of working members who fork over all the money to support this shit.
The truth is, it is a lot easier to walk away from this disaster if you fall into the second group. You take your ball and leave the playground and financially, as well as sprirtually, your are MUCH better off.
If you are on the other end of the stick it is a hell of a lot harder.
Still, I knew a lot of dirt poor members who just packed up and left and somehow found a way to live away of the FOF trough. I’m sorry if this sounds cold, but I’ve heard this excuse too much, outside the FOF as well. Like women who stay with an abusive husband because they are afraid to get a job. Anyone with a functioning conscience cannot remain any longer.

280. Bares Reposting - September 1, 2009

Hey, everybody, time for a meeting – meeting of minds, that is.

Way back in 11 Oct 2007 at 8:43 am, Associated Press posted a series to the blog, page 22/#367-373. There were images of graphs, compiled by FoF, that showed what was going on with the numbers and provided trending. Those images are not available any longer but the conclusions still remain the same. Here is what those posts said:

– – – – – –

22/367 on 11 Oct 2007 at 8:43 am:

Hello FoFbloggers,

Here to follow will be a sequence of posts that, for several weeks now, has been attempted numerous times to post in every permutation and combination that is possible to think of that would be better organized than this, seemingly, only acceptable method, due to the moderation structure and disallowed formats and/or multiple link rejections. I really hope it works, this being the sixth attempt.

22/368 on 11 Oct 2007 at 8:45 am:

Here’s how FoF membership looked 01/06:
Number of Members by Month to 01/01/06:
[image not available anymore]

22/369 on 11 Oct 2007 at 8:52 am:

Here’s how FoF membership looked 12/06:
Total Number of Students by Month to 12/15/06:
[image not available anymore]

Do compare this to the last post image/graph.

Wonder what it looks like now?

22/370 on 11 Oct 2007 at 8:56 am:

Here’s how FoF membership new entries looked 01/06:
Members Entering by Month to 01/01/06:
[image not available anymore]

22/371 on 11 Oct 2007 at 8:59 am:

Here’s how FoF membership new entries looked 12/06:
Number of Entries by Month to 12/15/06:
[image not available anymore]

Do compare this to the last post image/graph.

Wonder what it looks like now?

22/372 on 11 Oct 2007 at 9:01 am:

Here’s how FoF membership releases looked 01/06:
Members Released by Month to 01/01/06:
[image not available anymore]

22/373 on 11 Oct 2007 at 9:07 am:

Here’s how FoF membership releases looked 12/06:
Number of Releases by Month to 12/15/06:
[image not available anymore]

Do compare this to the last post image/graph.

Wonder what it looks like now?

– – – – – –

What these graphs showed was that for a long period of time, decades, the new members and departures (per month) were between 20 and 35 people. That is the reason the total population was relatively flat for so long. [One could say that that was what the level-of-being of the school could support.] A huge number would join, stay for about a year or less, then be replaced by a like number of neophytes. It served to keep the total numbers looking good. But the trend was: continued departures at, or above, that level while joining was declining to below 20 per month. That means that the population would decline 10 to 20 per month; or 120 – 240 per year. This is conservative estimate. In 4 years, 2006 – 2010, a loss of 500 – 1000 would be the range. That would be from about 2200 in Jan2006 to somewhere between 1200 to 1700 now. But, one of the demographic facts are: it is no longer the neophytes, joining and leaving; though that continues. They have a smaller financial (and emotional) impact. Older members with larger donation levels are leaving. Many that remain are entering retirement with associated decline in donation amounts.

Most professional marketing and sales people know that the incremental expenditures of resources to keep and maintain the current customer base is a lot less than what it takes to create new customers and get them to be loyal. So, it is more important to keep those already committed. But, the Fellowship of Friends, with its culture that tends to abuse the establishment, is basically shooting itself in the foot. The neophyte population will potentially keep going, especially in third world areas (and/or wherever internet access is restricted), and the older multi-year members will disappear by virtue of leaving and/or attrition. Let’s face it, Fellowship of Friends is a has been. It is only a matter of time before it will be gone. On the other hand, it will exist as long as Robert Earl Burton, and/or his successor(s) has one follower.

BTW, Egypt does not allow the type of organization the Fellowship of Friends has been, religious, to operate there as such. It will have to morph into an educational, or other, type organization, for the purposes of functioning there.

More:
164. brucelevy – August 29, 2009:

‘163. We Were There

Young pretty Egyptian boys. A whole new untapped market. I’d prefer to see RB in an Egyptian jail rather than US.’

In Egypt they might cut off body parts as punishment for crimes.

281. Crouching Tiger - September 1, 2009

Tatyana, thank you for the story:

“He had no boundaries. He concealed his vows in a locked drawer in his heart where no one would break his secret.” This sounds like it may very well be like RB. His vows and the locked drawer – content only seen at meetings and events… A vastly different secret through the trap door and into the bedroom. A vow to control the passions in public, a secret wish to unleash them fully in private…

AL is like a lesser version of RB. If he has indeed snared a woman with her two daughters, she had better look beneath the vow of apparent kindness and generosity, and interest in her. If previous form and colours are true, his secret wish will be visited on her daughters.

282. Yesri Baba - September 1, 2009

283. brucelevy - September 1, 2009

279. Dr. Pangloss

Mejor un mal conocido que un bien por conocer (Better a known evil than an unknown good)

284. veramente - September 1, 2009

283 brucelevy
agree…it takes guts to leave the known-habitual-abnormal state of affairs.

The real Life requires adaptation and creativity, being under the law of C (for Crazy) influence is to have all one’s life confined and interpreted by somebody’s else sick logic : (

285. fofblogmoderator - September 2, 2009

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