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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 77 July 30, 2009

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. James Mclemore - July 30, 2009

“Let’s be honest. Isn’t a lot of what we call tap dancing really just nerves?”

-from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey

2. nigel harris price - July 30, 2009

1 James Mclemore

‘just nerves’…..

Someone posted that Meher Baba had advised his students to be ‘good actors’. I have found that, in the art-form of acting, a good performance is achieved by ‘fear transformed into sheer nerve’, in other words nervous energy. Dead acts, as performed by REB, GH and company, produce nothing but bad imitation…..Nigel.

3. Yesri Baba - July 30, 2009

76/295 Jomo Pinata (can’t find the sguiggly to put on the n)

LOL.

I do have a vague recollection of that event. A symbol indeed!
Whatever happened to it? Probably still floating around stinking up the ocean.

(may i take that post as a ‘photograph’ also?)

4. Bares Reposting - July 30, 2009

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

5. Yesri Baba - July 30, 2009

I FOUND IT!

The barge. I saw it on Wiki. It’s chained to Diaper Boy’s dock!

6. brucelevy - July 30, 2009

For my “Dear Friends” (hearing those words from the mouths of creeps makes me ill)

7. brucelevy - July 30, 2009

That bass player is no Jaco Pastorius.

8. dragon - July 30, 2009

6. brucelevy

GREAT!!!

Oberaffentittengeiler song!!!!

9. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

Tatyana-
You and several others here apparently continue to labor under the false assumption that, in your words to me:

“That is the great difference between the Institution you stand for and us!”

I have no involvement with fof, or any current or past member, nor have I had since 1980. Period. Stop projecting this lie. Oh, I’ve occasionally come across some on Yahoo groups, and now this place, but that’s about it. And I am certainly not out to “save you” or “save the fof failures/schlubs”, or “save anyone else”, save myself perhaps.

My interest in being here, and occasionally posting, is not the fof, but you people, who are just as deluded in your own ways, as the fof bunch are in their own ways – and neither bunch sees that.

You both have your deep-seated agendas, and you are pursuing them with vigor. And now it seems, both bunches are out to bring down the other bunch, and apparently for the same reason – fear and self preservation.

And, T, it’s damn hilarious to watch.
And, T, it’s been going on worldwide for centuries.

Of course, the losers in all this, are the participants – the ones, perhaps even like you – who are SO INVESTED in the endeavor, so involved in trying to figure out “Wha’ the fuk happened?!?” that you lose perspective on what was once more important to you, so important that you joined what you thought, believed, even HOPED, was a Conscious 4thway School, in the Gurdjieff and/or Ouspensky tradition, with an awakened teacher…

But then, you quickly and quietly went directly to sleep, without passing “Go On, Graduate” and you slept quite soundly for years and years and years, without verifying anything important and significant, and NOW, after finally getting the hell out, for whatever reason – maybe you just gave up on yourself and your possibilities, who knows… do you? – you want to BLAME SOMEBODY for your perceived failures.

Which is why part of my first post here May 21, 2009, was:
“And have you even approached the possibility that your experience in that failed fourthway experiment, that pseudo-school wannabe, that CULT! was/is (and probably will continue to be) YOUR FAULT and your fault alone. Not Burtons, not Miles, not Girard, nor any of the sleeping machines who “counselled you” while you were debating with yourself: “should I stay, should I go, should I stay, should I go?”

Get real! You need to simply, once and for all, own up to the fact, that if you were more awake, more intelligent, less gullible, less suggestible, more “cut out for this Waking Up thing”, you would have recognized the SIGNS (and there were many, many, going back to the early ’70’s – and I personally saw them since 1975 till I split for good – and continuing for the next 3+ decades), that FOF is all wrong, not a conscious teaching by ANY stretch of the imagination, and there is/was no conscious teacher. PERIOD! Not in 1976 with Burton’s proclamation, nor any time after that.

“So leave, move on with your life already.”
Ok, I think I will.
“Look at it like an amputated finger, or hand, or arm if you must!”
Ok, got it.

Then (and NOT UNTIL, I will add) you might begin to explore, discover, investigate what it was IN YOU – even way back then in the beginning of your subsequent “downfall” (or, less dramatically, “waste of time”), that led to such a, for you, unhappy result, leading to this blighted place, this forum of yours, this most negative 76 page thread of hate speech directed at other sleeping humans. Can you even HEAR THAT?

76 pages of hate speech directed at other sleeping humans.
With occasional partial pages of hate speech directed at participants in your little game being played herein.

Here is where the PAIN ends and the actual FUN begins: when you start investigating your own consciousness, the source of thoughts and feelings within your own nervous system, and how you react to it all while quite asleep to what’s going on. How you are literally DRAGGED around your life, by your nose sniffing out first this, and then that, and then the other thing (gurdjieff, sufism, zen, advaita, christianity, scientology, new-age, whatever) trying to discover the true SOURCE of your discontent.

This absolutely INSIGNIFICANT vignette you (and others) got all caught up with so long ago – your membership in the FOF and all that occurred in your consciousness as a direct result of that choice YOU MADE attend that first meeting and to write that first check (nobody, NO BODY, twisted your arm, or held a gun to your head, and forced any action from you!) – can be left behind in ONE FELL SWOOP, like an amputated finger, never to invade your consciousness ever again, not even “phantom sensations”, never to bring you down and make you think and say and write HATE SPEECH directed at another sleeping human – Burton, Haven, Harris, Spaulding, the neighborhood gas station attendant, grocery clerk, street pedestrian, etc., etc., etc. – by simply making a conscious decision to stop doing it, and then not back slide (justifying and/or rationalizing your slippage) OR ELSE.

Man Up! as they say.
Stop Wimping Out! as they say.
Get Real.

10. Tatyana - July 30, 2009

6. brucelevy

“Poodel -O! the naive imroodel”?

What does it mean?

11. Tatyana - July 30, 2009

9. itstwinetime

“Tatyana-You and several others here apparently continue to labor under the false assumption that, in your words to me:

“That is the great difference between the Institution you stand for and us!”

Wait a minute. When did I say that? Wake up, man!

12. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

9. itstwinetime – July 30, 2009

Make that Elena, sorry for the confusion Tatyana

13. WhaleRider - July 30, 2009

itswinetime:
“My interest in being here, and occasionally posting, is not the fof, but you people, who are just as deluded in your own ways, as the fof bunch are in their own ways – and neither bunch sees that.”

“You people”? You seem to be promoting the idea that we, the “deluded” bunch of ex-followers, “need” to let go of the notion that we can do anything whatsoever to stop the rape factory that is the Fellowship of Friends aka Pathway to Presence…that we have absolutely no responsibility to warn others even though we are in the best position to speak out and TAKE A STAND against the FOF…against what we feel is wrong… having had lived through the experience ourselves.

You can count yourself among Burton’s wimpy enablers, then.

Is that your need…to unconsciously support the FOF’s agenda and convince others to follow you?

Get real.

14. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

11. Tatyana – July 30, 2009

Wait a minute. When did I say that? Wake up, man!

Calm down. At least I didn’t call you “tattered yoni” or some such obliterated alias, the way most of you guys do on a regular basis to “itstwinetime”. Jesus.

As for the minor confusion, I started another post to you at the same time on another topic, and copy-paste from notepad went into the Tatyana version not the Elena version, and I missed it. My bad.

So, I will not even bother with the Tatyana version, as you obviously have no interest in it anyway.

15. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

13. WhaleRider – July 30, 2009

Yes yes, you of all “You people” certainly ARE culpable, and therefore fullest of righteous indignation at what is still going on there, and what, ahem, “happened” to YOU… right?

You, though, have no responsibility in what, ahem, “happened” to you… because they held a gun to your head, right, or threatened you physically, right?

It was not your stupidity, and fear, and indecision, and weakness, and sleep, right?

So lash out at the REAL villains, “those people”, the FOF bunch, and the main dude Burton, the faggot, the “con man”, the “horrible bastard”.

16. nigel harris price - July 30, 2009

“Where there are arguments, there are idiots.” (G. Gurdjieff)…..Nigel.

17. Jomo Piñata - July 30, 2009

I’m not sure why itstwinetime finds so objectionable the notion that we ex-MARKS in the FOF CONFIDENCE SCHEME might be

–in dialogue with our own experiences there
–in dialogue with each other about those experiences
–in dialogue over a period of years, even many years.

Also not sure why he would characterize the blog as 76 pages of “hate speech.” It’s just not an accurate characterization.

18. Tatyana - July 30, 2009

14. itstwinetime

Why do you take offense in “wake up, man”?

“So, I will not even bother with the Tatyana version, as you obviously have no interest in it anyway.”

What made you think so? I am interested.

19. Mikey - July 30, 2009

In case you missed it, dear hearts, gentle people & fofblogmoderator, Ames busted this guy Pg.76/180.

20. X-ray - July 30, 2009

9. itstwinetime – July 30, 2009
’76 pages of hate speech directed at other sleeping humans.’

It’s a 76 pages of truth Greg.
Stop whining.

21. DXP - July 30, 2009

9 istwinetime

Good comment. And yet, I think it should be modified.

I agree that at some point there is collusion between members and the structure of the fof. At the very least there is a willing ignorance and therefore we were duped. But for most it went well beyond that. Robert’s boys did go willingly to a certain extent and the girls willingly played along and supported it all.

And it is very painful to admit that. Yes, it is easier to blame someone else for it. The seductee wants to blame the seducer and not see his or her own role in the seduction. But, and you might not disagree, it is a very human situation and a very humbling one and a very useful one (possibly) too. You cannot pronounce other’s “sleep” – that is silly and simply judgmental, based on nothing. Just because you have a few valid points does not entitle you to sit high on your horse and condescend to other participants of this blog.

From your vantage point, seem to merely bludgeoning blog participants and not doing much in the way of inspiring or leading by example. You demean the “vigor” of the bloggers. Fof group members are a passionate lot, it is one thing I really liked about many of the fof people I met. Not a highly intellectual group (which does not mean not intelligent), but there is certainly a passion and zeal for pursuit. Perhaps, here, a passion and zeal for non-pursuit.

I do not agree that the fof abuse is the fault of the abused and their fault alone as you say. Blaming the victim really has limits! And there is great benefit in whistle blowing and legal action from the vantage point of people who have an inside scoop and care enough to take action, even if it is just reading this blog. Limits on (assumed or self declared) authority is an extremely valid activity – one of a true citizen of the world. And exposing a pattern of abuse and harassment is a very good thing. These things happen in the dark of secrecy and even tho we have colluded it does not mean that that darkness should not be dispelled. Yes, we have to face it in ourselves, but it just does not end there.

Also, about the volume of comments on this blog — man this is a BLOG. What do you expect? Have you even seen blogs? Look around, they get all sorts of the same activity that this one does. And, no, they are not insignificant. They are a very direct way of communicating.

So, you seem to be saying that you have actually investigated your collusion, where your PAIN ended and your FUN began. How about writing about that now that you have flogged all the other commenters about their failings?

22. Tatyana - July 30, 2009

I don’t know, I can’t see how the “tricked” person can be at blame. Have you ever seen “Magic Secrets Revealed” show? They first show you how the magician performs the trick and later step by step explain what is going on and how to create this illusion. I can never guess “how”, it looks just – Magic!

I think the blog can be called “Magic Secrets Revealed”.

23. DXP - July 30, 2009

Tatyana, “Blame” is not the right word. Taking responsibility is better. Yes, we all have some responsibility to take.

24. DXP - July 30, 2009

Tatyana, if you go to a magic show and think it is all real then you are participating in the illusion. At least in going to a “magic” show you should be forewarned that it is illusion. Wanting to “believe” in magic is not a reason to completely fall for a trick.

25. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

17. Jomo Piñata – July 30, 2009

I’m not sure why itstwinetime finds so objectionable the notion that we ex-MARKS in the FOF CONFIDENCE SCHEME might be
–in dialogue with our own experiences there
–in dialogue with each other about those experiences
–in dialogue over a period of years, even many years.
Also not sure why he would characterize the blog as 76 pages of “hate speech.” It’s just not an accurate characterization.

Hello JP:
Because this particular con game played upon your wish/hope that the con man was what he said he was – conscious teacher of g-o 4thway school, in direct contact with conscious (C) influence.

How could you be so gullible?
Some who joined NEVER BELIEVED A WORD OF THAT, and that’s the truth. What they wanted to become part of was a small group of well-versed readers of 4thway material, and they did their homework diligently. Read, studied, tested the theories, and verified what they could.

Once they verified for themselves that this was a sham, they left.
But they did NOT NEED TO burn down the sham to regain their self – most likely realizing that others could fulfill that need perfectly well, and it did not have to be them – but those who still feel this need are in fact burning themselves as well. Self-immolation, in a convoluted tangle of twisted logic, psychological theorizing about undiagnosed illnesses, and armchair legalese to support a side of your psyche that can not move on. It will never end.

The longer and more vehemently you address these “Sacred” FOF issues, the longer will be your captivity.

As for the “hate speech” crack, to wake up some of you here, remember, this entire place was opened for one reason only – to rag on about Burton, his practices, his shameful behaviors, and very many of his enablers, and the words you’ve all used from the very beginning, have been hateful at best. Calling someone a FAGGOT, a BUTTFUCKER, and many other terms, while perhaps true (if you were there to participate in that), does not alter this fact. Hate speech is what it is, and it’s coming out YOUR MOUTH, and bouncing around inside YOUR HEAD.

That remains your issue to deal with.
Not mine, and not those who are not participating in that particular line of thought.

My entire venture here has been about one thing only – wake up to what HAPPENED TO YOU, put it in its rightful place, don’t return to it ever again, and start a new “work octave” (if you must think in those terms), trying to study your own consciousness, that was obviously so mangled that you are still dragging around all that baggage after all this time. “Why am I still dragging all this crap from the past around with me everywhere I go??? Hmmmm?”

Question yourself and what’s going on between your ears, and FORGET about the fof, burton, haven, and all the other villains that live inside your world. Don’t worry about the “poor schlubs” who are still stuck in the Burton Hellworld (side note, my ex-wife is still there after 35 years, and I have not given her ONE THOUGHT until this sentence right now, as I exorcised her and the Burton Hellworld from my world – when I left.)

They must fend for themselves now, wake themselves up if they can… or they are simply lost… but do know, that there are loads of people STILL HERE DAILY that will take over your “jobduties” once you retire from the ARMY you were willingly conscripted into before.

26. DXP - July 30, 2009

istwinetime

Your vehemence puts a lie to your words. For one thing: “this entire place was opened for one reason only – to rag on about Burton, his practices, his shameful behaviors, and very many of his enablers” is not true. This is a BLOG (ever heard of one before?). It has no purpose, it is just a vehicle. Also, exposure of unethical, immoral and criminal acts of a man/group is NOT something to “FORGET”. It is an act of humility, humanity and mercy to expose what was done to one and to warn others. What do you have against that??? Obviously you don’t have any friends who are current fof members, but many here do. So you don’t care for any current member or for any former member who is whistle blowing and taking responsibility by doing so.

27. fofblogmoderator - July 30, 2009

From page 1 of the BLOG (from the Sheik- the guy who started this blog)

“The leader is quite definitely insane, a paedophile, brainwasher and manipulator. And he’s good. He likes people to dress up nice and smart, he doesn’t like people to joke, he hates smoking and, just for good measure, he dislikes pre-marital sex and homosexuality. That’s coming from a man who has had several lawsuits filed against him for forced homosexual acts. He also believes that he talks with 44 angels – including Jesus, Franklin and Goethe. Rock on Burton!!! Sadly enough this madman has managed to attract around 2000 followers.

3) This is the hard part. I hate to say it but some of the people I met in the Fellowship were incredibly inteligent, well-versed in esoteric studies, knowledgable and possibly quite far on the self-exploration path. They seemed to have that ‘it’ that serious students of alternate states of consciousness, the inner and outer realities, acquire after time. Doesn’t bode well with the cultist reality of the Fellowship but that’s what I was getting from them. After reading some more on these things I have to say that most of it was probably an act. The arrogance felt from the members of the Fellowship towards the listeners can be explained by the belief of these people that whoever is not a member is a worthless robot who deserves nothing from the superior members. This is a belief that is taught as a part of the teachings of the Fellowship of Friends, it always results in alienation from one’s family, friends, partner – you name it.

So be warned – there are better Gurdjieff organisations, other schools and other teachers. Cults should never be trifled with! I believe that an integral part of a personal journey is the (sub-conscious) search for a teacher, it would be a mistake to learn from false prophets. So don’t be attracted by easy gains, it’s better to wait for the real deal than to join a cult that offers the ‘perfect’ self-betterment practices. I have come across most of the techniques that were briefly talked about in the presentation at other places. One of the techniques that the Fellowship uses to attract new members is by putting Fellowship bookmarks into books in esoteric bookstores and libraries. Coincidence? – hardly.

So what is the lesson of the day? Always be sceptical, don’t trust or believe anything and let things happen as they wish. Your mission is to deal with it afterwards, integrate it and learn from it. Don’t let people manipulate you! And if you ever run out of money start a cult and put your esoteric knowledge to good use (as Burton did).”

Hate speech? not in my opinion

28. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

21. DXP – July 30, 2009

9 istwinetime

Good comment. And yet, I think it should be modified.

DXP – gee this is becoming like work. So, I’ll try (and fail) to be very brief, and preceed my comments with —-

I agree that at some point there is collusion between members and the structure of the fof. At the very least there is a willing ignorance and therefore we were duped. But for most it went well beyond that. Robert’s boys did go willingly to a certain extent and the girls willingly played along and supported it all.

—-
Yes there is considerable collusion but it’s mechanical. It’s made of the same stuff as simple belief without verifying. That’s why people believe the 4thway and Gurdjieff at all – 99% can’t be directly verified, but it ALL can be believed, and once the desire to believe becomes a greater force in one, than the need to KNOW (verify), it’s a very slippery slope, to deeper and deeper involvement. (Hey, “man is a machine, but with certain efforts, can awaken” is all the 4thway is about. All the rest is mind stuff for intellectually centered people. And furthermore, you do NOT NEED a school to start and continue investigating the superficial and more deeply entrenched recesses of your mind. You just need to begin and continue.)

I was there several years and believed all the nonsence and Burtons becoming a #6 in ’76, and all that. But when he stopped teaching publicly – that was the absolute end for me (it is a BIG CLUE for those who care to know – conscious teachers NEVER stop teaching publically to everyone wants to be there. And furthermore, they are continually discovering, exploring what is going on in themselves and in Life and willingly communicate that to those who wish to hear.)

I also knew about the man-boy mis-behavior thing early on, and almost couldn’t care – it did not touch me personally – until Sanders got all hot under the collar and “we” got all riled up about the abuses, etc. So that was the end of the “dream” for me.

And it is very painful to admit that. Yes, it is easier to blame someone else for it. The seductee wants to blame the seducer and not see his or her own role in the seduction. But, and you might not disagree, it is a very human situation and a very humbling one and a very useful one (possibly) too. You cannot pronounce other’s “sleep” – that is silly and simply judgmental, based on nothing. Just because you have a few valid points does not entitle you to sit high on your horse and condescend to other participants of this blog.

—-
This thing about, “well, it’s the human condition, so I should be given a pass” is not only PART of the problem of “sleep”, it is the main enabler of it. Burton’s enablers continually “give him a pass”, saying “he’s a #7, or he’s an angel, or blah blah blah”, and then they have stopped thinking critically.

The human condition, is that you make a aim, then fail often, and continue giving yourself a pass. What is required to awaken, is to make an aim, fail often, but not justifying and rationalizing it as somebody else’s fault. (Your) Sleep is your fault, not my fault.

From your vantage point, seem to merely bludgeoning blog participants and not doing much in the way of inspiring or leading by example.

—-
Excuse me here. I have no interest in inspiring you people but to hold up a mirror of my making and see what happens. That is not a bad thing, if you look at what you see, and see yourself in what is being shown. All I have said since I first posted 5. itstwinetime – May 20, 2009 – is FORGET ABOUT FOF and FIX YOURSELF FIRST.

Remember, it is “your” “self” that joined, stayed WAY TOO LONG, and now firmly believes that this particular forum is a suitable outlet for your continued conscious evolution, unless you are just pissed off and want to bitch and moan about it – and there are SEVERAL here in that category. I say, that’s wrong thinking through and through.

The past is baggage and there’s nothing to learn there. The present is right now, and if you don’t learn something right now, you must wait again, until it’s presented the next time. Analyzing the past is for historians. Observation and Realization is for consciousness explorers and they can only operate in the moment.

Burton acted in the only way he could have acted, because he is asleep.
Members acted in the only way they could have acted, because they are asleep.
What more do you want/need to know or say about it.
Sleep causes all the “problems” in the world.
Wake up first, and look around.
It’s a different world out there that you never saw before.

You demean the “vigor” of the bloggers. Fof group members are a passionate lot, it is one thing I really liked about many of the fof people I met. Not a highly intellectual group (which does not mean not intelligent), but there is certainly a passion and zeal for pursuit. Perhaps, here, a passion and zeal for non-pursuit.

I do not agree that the fof abuse is the fault of the abused and their fault alone as you say. Blaming the victim really has limits! And there is great benefit in whistle blowing and legal action from the vantage point of people who have an inside scoop and care enough to take action, even if it is just reading this blog. Limits on (assumed or self declared) authority is an extremely valid activity – one of a true citizen of the world. And exposing a pattern of abuse and harassment is a very good thing. These things happen in the dark of secrecy and even tho we have colluded it does not mean that that darkness should not be dispelled. Yes, we have to face it in ourselves, but it just does not end there.

—-
Nothing is anyone’s “fault alone”. I am NOT (NOT) blaming anyone here for anything. I am strongly suggesting that you (YOU) look at the possibility that your experience with the FOF/Burton, is all your fault, not theirs (i.e., if you were more awake, more conscious, more intelligent, your experience would have been VASTLY different. And if you wake up NOW, and stay awake long enough, you’ll see clearly that the whole FOF + YOU equation was very, very different than what you used to believe. That it is all connected, humming along quite well, and very efficiently, and the only part that CAN BE rewired, is you, but that one change, changes everything.)

When you look at the situation AS THOUGH IT IS your fault alone, you have a compelling reason to STOP looking outside yourself for answers to (mostly) idiotic questions that naturally arise when you think (believe) the world is primarily at fault for your (perceived) condition.

Life is a great machine, and all parts of it are necessary right now. Even if you could personally nuke the entire Apollo Hierarchy, with all the “evil enablers” in it – freeing thereby all the rest of walking somnambulists – you’d have accomplished nothing. Cults exist, will exist, all over the world, and the FOF cult is such an infinitesimal thing in the grand scheme that is Life, that it is probably not even registered by Life as something to “watch out for, because that thing is **dangerous**. There are bigger “ills” on this planet than that little pitiful “thing” going on there.

If Life finds something no longer necessary, all the talk about that thing ceases, and people forget about it entirely. Poof, it’s gone, and it becomes a mere minor footnote in history, if that.

Translation of the above. If YOU find something no longer necessary, ALL the talk about that thing ceases, and YOU forget about it entirely (unless you choose to bring it up and review it again). Poof, it’s literally gone, and it becomes a mere minor footnote in your personal history, if that.

Also, about the volume of comments on this blog — man this is a BLOG. What do you expect? Have you even seen blogs? Look around, they get all sorts of the same activity that this one does. And, no, they are not insignificant. They are a very direct way of communicating.

—-
clarifying again.
I am not criticizing “vigor”, nor volume.
That’s not the issue.
It’s the content of what people are writing and the deflection from what the real “problem” is. The fof is not YOUR PROBLEM, it’s the current members problem and the ex-members who can’t deal with it, maybe they should get professional help – it’s easily and readily available. The fof is not the problem at all, no matter the force with which you discuss it, or the amount of posts discussing it. The only possible problem is the deflection from what IS the problem – sleep and all its ramifications.

I say “your problem” and mine as well, is that your consciousness operates on overdrive, automatically, and these thoughts arise without observation, and AFTER THE FACT, you agree, or disagree, or dismiss, or go with, or verbalize, or argue with, or any number of things, but the PROBLEM, is that the machine is cranking out all this JUNK, and you are taking it all for granted, as if to say, “Well, I hear it in my head, so it MUST BE my thoughts, and if they are my thoughts, then they must be, pretty much, correct on the surface. Afterall I did think them didn’t I? Afterall, this IS what I believe isn’t it?”

Come on, nobody knows the source of thought, but every living human is connected to all living humans electrically, through their nervous systems, though language, and as long as language has a free reign upon your states of consciousness – which it now does – you are being dragged around by thoughts that might not be worthy of your TIME.

“you are being dragged around by thoughts that might not be worthy of your TIME.” and when you start investigating that, you will agree, honestly.

“Hey, have you heard, Burton just raped another young man from Europe, that the inner circle had delivered to him last month, and now that young man is emotionally damaged. Ain’t that a bitch?!?”

Ok, there’s a thought you let into your inner world, and believe as true on the surface, and may even cause you to spend hours making phone calls to verify its truth, and for what? So you can feel bad again?

Waking up is not for people that can’t see what’s happening here.

The FOF and all the people associated with it, ARE IN YOU – between your ears, in your consciousness – and there is the only place you can have any pertinent impact upon things. Between your ears. Fix yourself, and the whole world is different. You will see the fof AS IT IS, and how it fits into the whole that is Life on Earth at this time.

So, you seem to be saying that you have actually investigated your collusion, where your PAIN ended and your FUN began. How about writing about that now that you have flogged all the other commenters about their failings?

—-
That’s where I spend my days, but I don’t post that here, but elsewhere.
Thanks for your intelligent and respectful post.
Sorry for the length, so as I predicted, I failed in trying to be brief.

29. Jomo Piñata - July 30, 2009

itstwinetime/25

this particular con game played upon your wish/hope that the con man was what he said he was – conscious teacher of g-o 4thway school, in direct contact with conscious (C) influence. [¶] How could you be so gullible?

Ah, there’s the rub. More in a moment.

wake up to what HAPPENED TO YOU, put it in its rightful place, don’t return to it ever again

See, here’s what puzzles me. Why not stop and explore it? Why the rush to some simple reconceptualization, never to be reopened?

We tell ourselves a story about our lives that seems to be true. And then we learn more that we didn’t know. And then we have to revise the story to include the new information. The fact is that the more we learn, the more we can revise the story to include MORE. This is a GOOD thing!

Now, back to the first point:

How could you be so gullible?

By specific and identifiable techniques, people can be influenced to suspend their ability to think critically WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND CONSENT. Most people don’t know this. If I can influence you to act in a way that is dissonant with the way you see yourself, you will CHANGE THE WAY YOU SEE YOURSELF to reduce the dissonance. In this way, if I can influence your behavior, I can affect what you come to believe WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND CONSENT. There are peer-reviewed studies on the subject.

And if I can through SPECIFIC AND IDENTIFIABLE TECHNIQUES persuade you to distrust your own ability to think critically, chances are I can get you to swallow all kinds of crazy shit, intellectually speaking. Some people are more vulnerable than others. Young kids in transition out of their families of origin can be extremely vulnerable and poor at distinguishing possibilities in the world from their own fantasies about what the world has to offer.

If you think that FOF recruitees knew or believed anything about this Burton guy before they joined, you’re wrong. During my tenure prospective students were not even permitted to be given his name. The withholding of information, and deliberate deception, were integral parts of FOF recruitment. The fact that it didn’t work on everybody equally doesn’t mean it didn’t work.

30. brucelevy - July 30, 2009

28. itstwinetime

Would you be the person who left in the 80’s, and has a sister or two still “in”” (If you are I certainly wouldn’t expose your identity, but you show a familiar arrogance and narcissism that this person consistently displayed) and was a friend of P.S. If it was you, you certainly lapped up the attention that your blond, pretty countenance attracted, without having to bend over. You certainly sound like him, or Greg. There’s no dearth of your kind of person who travels through the FOF, like Mr. Tanner, Greg, other’s too numerous to mention. Just curious.

31. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

30. brucelevy – July 30, 2009

28. itstwinetime Would you be the person who left in the 80’s, and has a sister or two still “in””

I have no sisters at all. I don’t know P.S. I am NOT goodwin – jesus, how many times do I have to repeat this to you all? – and I’m not blond. Nice try mercury boy, and greg did NOT coin it, it was coined way before that before even you left.

I left in ’81 after some complaining about burton and the payments, and the fact he stopped teaching publicly, and that even when he did, it was too boring for words. It was a fantasy land and not worthy of further involvement. I never looked back at all, but I do from time to time, refer to it in posts on Yahoo and elsewhere as an example of something worth looking at.

You see – Jomo as well – the whole multi-year experience requires no further “investigation”, beyond investigating the mechanics in me (you) that would be so duped, and then hang on to the past long after the thing should have been exorcised.

It served me well. I did join a conscious teaching/teacher afterall, and it was not a cult, had a small membership, no payment schedule, and studied not other people’s books, but consciousness as directly as possible. That’s where the FUN begins, when stories lose their hold upon your life, and consciousness becomes the central theme and activity.

32. elena - July 30, 2009

9 Itstwinetime

1. I don’t believe your story about not being in the Fellowship or getting paid by them.

2. Your position in this post is exactly the same position cults hold to brainwash people over and over and over again, wash their souls, hearts and brains out. It essentially says: you are responsible and we are not.

I don’t agree with you. I’m very happy to take responsibility for my involvement in the Cult but that does not take a hair off responsibility from the Fellowship or any other cult.

Your statement that this is only negativity against the Fellowship shows your intention to undervalue the beautiful things that are going on here and take credibility and legitimacy away from the blog. Keep on working love, the more you try, the stronger we get!

Haven’t read the rest of the posts after nine but thanks all for your participation.

33. elena - July 30, 2009

31 Itstwinetime

Your story is so phony it makes me laugh my heart out. All of a sudden you are becoming sincere here? Go buy another name sweetie and try again!

34. DXP - July 30, 2009

istwinetime,

I had a little trouble following your last comment. For one thing, all the buy-in to the 4th way talk is sort of slippery. “Machine, sleep, more conscious, awake” etc etc. I guess you still think in these forms.

Yes, the fof is just a cult, and a little one at that and not that powerful. But former members and other related parties are the best at exposing unethical, immoral and, possibly illegal activities. Would you tell a former Goldman Sachs board member they should just leave “problems” (see the recent Rolling Stone magazine article) and keep quiet about it? Just move on and Goldman will take care of itself? It takes courage to put oneself on the line in exposing cults like the fof and huge corrupt institutions like Goldman because one’s buy-in culpability is exposed too.

I think this is one core of what you are saying:
“I am strongly suggesting that you (YOU) look at the possibility that your experience with the FOF/Burton, is all your fault, not theirs”

I would suggest that it is not any party’s entire fault. I know you are saying that I and everyone else who cares to comment here, SHOULD, personally, think this way. If you choose to that is your choice, but does that make your choice universally applicable? If you say “yes” because your choice is on a “higher level” or “more awake” then I cannot agree. For one thing you don’t know what is a “higher level” or if there is even such a bullshit thing at all. For another, what is right for you is not necessarily right for another. I do think, however, that your point that we all have culpability is true, but an avoidance of involvement is not an antidote to that – at least for many. Who said that oft quoted bit about “who does not learn from history, repeats it”? (or something like that)

Possibly other’s whistle blowing is somehow a threat to you? I mean, as Jomo said so well: “Why not stop and explore it? Why the rush to some simple reconceptualization, never to be reopened?”

One more quick point… this blog is open to all, and is not just read by former members. So former members’, and related parties’ experiences can be very valuable as a resource to current members (who’s ‘problem’ you think the fof is entirely). So, if you DO choose to share your experiences they will go into a productive hopper.

35. Jomo Piñata - July 30, 2009

31/itstwinetime

the whole multi-year experience requires no further “investigation”, beyond investigating the mechanics in me (you) that would be so duped, and then hang on to the past long after the thing should have been exorcised.

Well, that’s your opinion. You’re entitled to it. You do show us your attitude towards examining and reexamining your own experience: you’re hostile towards it and you express value judgments towards others who reexamine theirs. According to you (if I read you right), you settled what happened once and for all, and settled understandings shouldn’t be reopened.

The basis of your hostility to this kind of inquiry and dialogue? I don’t know. But if I were to guess, I would guess you are both afraid and ashamed of what you might find if you opened it back up, so you’d rather the whole enterprise of inquiry be shut down, and you get angry when others choose differently. In your fifties now, you see the finitude of life ahead of you and you think life’s too short to reopen settled things.

But I don’t know that that’s where you’re coming from. It’s just a guess.

36. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

32. elena – July 30, 2009

9 Itstwinetime

1. I don’t believe your story about not being in the Fellowship or getting paid by them.

Hello “dear friend”:
My only comment is this: tough shit lady.
You’ve been told several times.
Your holding onto this error is very telling – for those with the wherewithal to see.

2. Your position in this post is exactly the same position cults hold to brainwash people over and over and over again, wash their souls, hearts and brains out. It essentially says: you are responsible and we are not.

NOPE.
That’s not what I said.
Re-read, this time for comprehension, instead of your typical method, of hearing your OWN thoughts instead of MY thoughts.

What I wrote is this,
“Nothing is anyone’s “fault alone”. I am NOT (NOT) blaming anyone here for anything. I am strongly suggesting that you (YOU) look at the possibility that your experience with the FOF/Burton, is all your fault, not theirs.”

They were just the furniture IN THE ROOM, and it was YOU who continually bumped up against it, and caused all manner of pain and suffering for yourself. That’s just… as they say… your life.

I don’t agree with you. I’m very happy to take responsibility for my involvement in the Cult but that does not take a hair off responsibility from the Fellowship or any other cult.

YES, the fof is a cult, burton is a bad man, and they are responsible for their actions directed against other humans. But, they are NOT, NOT – can you read? – NOT responsible for the bullshit flowing through your nervous system in response to it. That’s your thing entirely.

Get REAL… as they say… and the whole world looks differently.

The army is already suited up to fight them, and if you want to be the famous General in Skirts, so be it. I have not been so suited up, and can not be. You simply can not say the same. That is not MY problem, that is YOUR problem.

Your statement that this is only negativity against the Fellowship shows your intention to undervalue the beautiful things that are going on here and take credibility and legitimacy away from the blog. Keep on working love, the more you try, the stronger we get!

Haven’t read the rest of the posts after nine but thanks all for your participation.

37. DXP - July 30, 2009

istwinetime, would you mind putting sections that you quote in quote marks? I’m having trouble trying to understand your comments.

38. Tatyana - July 30, 2009

Istwintime, you have a particular energy, I feel, like a fast driving car. Intense too.

What’s the name of your new conscious teaching/teacher?

Blog helps people to leave FOF and if you don’t care about it, just go. Go do you thing, leave us alone and let us be.

39. elena - July 30, 2009

Swine time, you’re boring and repetitive.

This Swine character is typical: it is very convenient for the Phallusheep to now invent a character such as this one who is supposed to be an ex-student who didn’t buy the shit, got off free, went to another conscious school and is now about to tell us about his own consciousness.

He is standing by every single allegation that every other member has stood by but since they all failed it is ever so convenient to make this one not a fellowshipper for two purposes: one, that if he fails like the rest, it is not they who fail and two even if he fails, he repeats the same ideology as if he were not in the cult.

No one outside of the cult would bother taking up such job and respond with the lack of scruples that has characterized this poster. He is, like all others, beginning to write lengthier posts which he didn’t at first like so many of the other did. They start bugging things then they try to sound more convincing then when they find themselves short get out and try another name.

Doesn’t the Fellowship have anyone sincere enough to simply say yes, I just love this sick place!

They are getting lower and lower though. This guy’s veiled threat was way below the waste, well disguised but very much there. Doesn’t it tell you something?

40. DXP - July 30, 2009

istwinetime

I’m not entirely unsympathetic to your idea that former fof members should consider the experience completely our fault. BUT, that might be good for a period of time. Maybe there are other considerations – like the culpability of Robert and the fof mainstream and the fof enablers – to be considered too…at some point. And how long is the period of “the fault is all mine”? And when? And for everyone at the same periods of time at the same periods of our lives?

I also think this is one reason many here have moved on from, and even object to, the group-speak of the 4thway/fofway. It is a rejection of the intellectual form of the cult and does create a new space.

41. in2it - July 30, 2009

4. Bares Reposting – July 30, 2009

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

Thomas Jefferson

——

42. WhaleRider - July 30, 2009

Itswinetime:
“So lash out at the REAL villains, “those people”, the FOF bunch, and the main dude Burton, the faggot, the “con man”, the “horrible bastard.”

I have been positng for several years now and I don’t believe I have ever used that language.

IMO, Mr. Burton is suffering from a personality disorder and needs to be contained for the safety of society.

In your line of thinking, Bernard Madoff is a saint and it is the fault of all his victims for trusting him with their money.

Answer my question. Why do you need to support the FOF agenda?

43. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

38. Tatyana – July 30, 2009
What’s the name of your new conscious teaching/teacher?
—-
He’s not doing this publicly anymore.

Blog helps people to leave FOF and if you don’t care about it, just go. Go do you thing, leave us alone and let us be.
—–

No thanx, for now at least stirring the pot here is useful, and there are at least a couple who like being stirred. Elena, the dolt, the ex-wife of a dolt, the boring dolt that drones on and on about phalluses and sheep, is the one that needs it the most. So if the moderator doesn’t kick me, I’ll continue to kick her.

44. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

40. DXP – July 30, 2009

istwinetime
———
(the alias is, itstwinetime, but I don’t care.)

I’m not entirely unsympathetic to your idea that former fof members should consider the experience completely our fault. BUT, that might be good for a period of time. Maybe there are other considerations – like the culpability of Robert and the fof mainstream and the fof enablers – to be considered too…at some point. And how long is the period of “the fault is all mine”? And when? And for everyone at the same periods of time at the same periods of our lives?
———

EXACTLY. It is an exercise of very limited duration, until the surgery is completed, the hand is amputated and cauterized, and you’re now “good to go” (on with the rest of your life, unhindered by the gangrenous limb – neural clot of thoughts – holding you captive to its stench.)

I also think this is one reason many here have moved on from, and even object to, the group-speak of the 4thway/fofway. It is a rejection of the intellectual form of the cult and does create a new space.

———
Ok.
You have apparently.
What about the several here, like elena, that still carry the dirty experience on her back like a cloak everywhere she goes? I have said there is only one remedy. Stop picking at the wound and opening it yet again, only to bleed more and feel the pain? Nothing whatsoever can be gained from it. People like elena will be yammering on about this fof travesty for years and years, though probably for no one but herself, as the rest of you will finally have awoken to the crap she’s been spewing here for so long, and left her in the dust she prefers to wallow in.

45. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

42. WhaleRider – July 30, 2009

Itswinetime:

In your line of thinking, Bernard Madoff is a saint and it is the fault of all his victims for trusting him with their money.

Answer my question. Why do you need to support the FOF agenda?

——–
Talk about a misreading.
Madoff is a criminal.
Burton is a criminal.
Their agendas were criminal and they’ve hurt MANY.

But this planet, this country, is NOT YOURS, and it is not your responsibility to fix it. Leave the fixing for the one(s) in charge. Fact is, you don’t know what to change, nor what changes should be made, that would result in a better situation for anybody.

Cons, and cults do exist, MUST EXIST, and likely WILL EXIST even after you’re dead, because Life – at this time – requires it. If it did not require it, they would cease – almost instantaneously, like the dinosaurs.

Furthermore, there is an ongoing con-game going on IN YOU – but you’ve yet to realize this – and an ongoing cult of personality going on IN YOU, using your name by the way, but you’ve yet to realize this, and UNTIL YOU DO, well you figure it out.

Your only responsibility is to right those wrongs you actually can right – if any – including yourself, which you absolutely MUST before it’s too late.

Or, you can, like most on this planet, try to fix everything BUT themselves, saving that little chore for the death bed conversion they believe in their infantilistic intelligence, may help them.

46. in2it - July 30, 2009

“try to fix everything BUT themselves…”

This was the typical FOF response to any criticism of the FOF.

Hey everyone, you had better be silent and stop this criticism. Someone might think you were trying to fix everything by yourself, which is weak, bad, a sign of sleep, etc.

It’s a false dichotomy. You either try to fix yourself or you try to fix others. Same old thinking.

47. Tatyana - July 30, 2009

I don’t like your attitude that someone needs your help to wake up by “steering the pot”. It is unkind, personal, I can even say – violent. I think you have to be banned.

48. elena - July 30, 2009

Anybody else noticed how this Swine is trying to put us against each other? First me against you saying that you’d rather I take the bullets for you, now you against me.

It is becoming obvious that the main objective of the Fellowship today is to take me out because they don’t feel seriously threatened by anybody else. You gonna take that?

49. elena - July 30, 2009

Swine:

“Talk about a misreading.
Madoff is a criminal.
Burton is a criminal.
Their agendas were criminal and they’ve hurt MANY.”

Sentences like this one are just cover ups

“But this planet, this country, is NOT YOURS, and it is not your responsibility to fix it. Leave the fixing for the one(s) in charge. Fact is, you don’t know what to change, nor what changes should be made, that would result in a better situation for anybody.”

In this one he goes back to the cult agenda: you are impotent before the world, you cannot do anything, leave the fixing to others, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT TO CHANGE.

Typical brainwashing language attacking people’s credibility on themselves.

50. Jomo Piñata - July 30, 2009

4/Bares reposting
41/in2it

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

Thomas Jefferson

51. WhaleRider - July 30, 2009

itswinetime:
“Leave the fixing for the one(s) in charge.”

You mean like some “authority figure”?

Elena is right. Typical cult response.

52. DXP - July 30, 2009

itstwinetime

I don’t think this guy should be banned. This is what blogs are about.

sorry about the typos on your name. Why’d you pick one which would prove a challenge to the dyslexic among us?

Heh, I’m not here to try to control Elena, but I guess you have taken on that task. I think you have many good points, but they are lost when you try to make them work for everyone. No one here is trying to eradicate all cults or the human need for them. Whistle blowers on Goldman Sachs or Madoff or Enron did not try to eradicate all investment banks, investors or energy companies either. Or all investment corruption for all time everywhere.

But where there is corruption you are eventually going to find some who cry foul. And until someone does it all exists in darkness – in a shadow.

I, for one, happen to agree with you that we carry cult mentality within us (as we carry trust in investment banks and investors such as Madoff). We buy into it and that is a reflection of our humanity. You might judge this and say it is “sleep”, but I don’t think finding one’s humanity is negative at all, and in fact is very releasing. And if we share a human dependence/need for someone to take care of us (be it parents, cult leaders, investment bankers, government leaders) then reducing that dependence that is pretty eye opening. But (IMO) you are right if you are saying that simply transferring cult mentality to a “bad guy” (including Robert and others) and not recognizing it in ourselves -and- that we are still vulnerable to it is a big buffer. It still does not negate legitimate efforts to end corruption. These efforts may not be completely pure (what, in life on planet earth, IS?) but they are still called for.

What would have been really funny is if Robert had lost all his money to Madoff.

53. itstwinetime - July 30, 2009

47. Tatyana – July 30, 2009

I don’t like your attitude that someone needs your help to wake up by “steering the pot”. It is unkind, personal, I can even say – violent. I think you have to be banned.

——-

good grief, what a joke you are.
I said STIR the pot, not STEER the pot.
Wake up, lady.
And, there’s not a damn thing violent in what I’ve written today or any day. Jesus, what’s your problem?

——————————–

49. elena – July 30, 2009

elena needs a translation, because she can’t do it herself!
“But this planet, this country, is NOT YOURS, and it is not your responsibility to fix it. Leave the fixing for the one(s) in charge. Fact is, you don’t know what to change, nor what changes should be made, that would result in a better situation for anybody.”

Right out of Search for the Miraculous. Did you even read it? This planet is not yours, it is Life’s to do with as it pleases, through mankind, through the mind of man. You are just a tiny and insignificant part to boot, quite asleep and quite mechanical in almost all your actions.

Awaken – become more conscious or fully conscious – and things may be different, but now, you are just a dupe to the needs of organic life on earth, and a puppet to your chaotic thought-stream you have absolutely NO CONTROL over.

If Life wants madoff to go to jail for 150 years, so be it.
If Life wants burton to burn in hell for 150 years, so be it.
You on the other hand haven’t the power or ability to make any changes in Life, only in yourself. Better get crackin’, you’ve obviously wasted DECADES.

54. elena - July 30, 2009

Swine

You can take all your bullshit and eat it yourself and have a picnic with anyone who wishes to argue with you but I don’t buy any of it for even one second no matter where it comes from.

It comes from sick pimps like you.

55. elena - July 30, 2009

You are rather desperately trying to lower my self esteem but it’s never been higher love! You obviously manage to manipulate quite a few here but your tactics are so low and transparent that you’ll be caught out in a short while.

Too bad you’ll have to tell those paying you that you too failed. That your attempts at getting me to do what you wanted failed lousily!

You’re pitiful you blood and cock suckers

56. brucelevy - July 31, 2009

Entr’acte

57. ton - July 31, 2009

re: itstwinetime —

this dude is so ‘full of himself’ (read: so full of shit)… especially this attitude he continually expresses in phrases like: ‘the poverty of this place’ and etc. it’s old already, it’s condescending and it’s just more ‘whining’ which is something he always complains about from other posters.

i don’t believe him when he says he never thought about his wife after he left the fof; if he really loved her, of course he thought about her…. but then it’s entirely possible he never really loved her. it may very well be that he’s just another cold fish, a heartless, vain-glorious narcissist; something the fof tends to attract and breed. one thing that ‘shines through’ from his ‘lofty’ posting position, is his lack of compassion. he doesn’t seem to care about anyone but himself, the poor buggers in the fof are of little concern to him and of course the bloggers here are beneath his contempt.

an impression of this ‘twine’ person is that he fancies himself the ‘biggest, baddest biker in the bar’ (he’s implied it in a previous post), and now he’s taken upon himself the task of clearing the bar room of ‘wimps.’ what motivates his desire to clear the room? here’s a ‘grope’ in the old ‘work lingo’ — it has to do with features of power and control… he gets-off on controlling and directing the attention of the blog and he seems to take relish in belittling the ‘poor pathetic blog.’ i suggest he check things out between his own ears… and maybe more importantly for him, while he’s at it he should check to see if he still has a functioning heart.

personally i don’t spend a lot of time blogging but my job requires some computer work and that allows for the occasional check on the buzz here…. and ya, i’ll drop a line or two if i’m moved to do so…. and ya i’ve even had a bit of fun here in the past. my involvement here doesn’t take much of a commitment but i like to think that i might be able at times to shed some light (or not) and glean insights for myself…. i don’t think this is a waste of what little time i put into it…. but whatever the case, it’s my time so why does this twine person care whether i ‘waste’ it or not ? again the question of motive — and obviously he doesn’t care, his concern is all about him… just as it should be, right? just ask him.

apparently twine boy thinks ‘we’ would be better served here if ‘we’ were to collect our toys and go play elsewhere…. recently there was some chat here regarding collusion and complicity… imo those who take the attitude expressed by folks like this twine, the attitude that ignoring a problem is the best approach…. (it is one possible approach and you are free to choose it)… but to me this attitude represents another form of collusion and complicity especially if like twine boy, by various means and implications, one actively advocates suppressing open communication.

as for my own miniscule involvement here, i would like to think that by following the blog… and along with others, chirping up on occasion, that it might possibly contribute in a small way to something good (or not, why should someone like twine care? and of course he doesn’t, right?…. he’s all about getting ‘paid attention’ to).

here are a couple posts from recent pages as reminders of the bit of good that the blog can accomplish :

” 220. GotoGo – July 27, 2009

Regarding “narcissistic vampires”, I recently read the following books:
1. The Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout
2. The Narcissistic Family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman & Robert M. Pressman
3. Trapped in The Mirror by Elan Goulomb
4. Unholy Hungers by Barbara Hort
, which are another big ‘eye openings’ for me.
I now understand more clearly what was/is going on around Robert and students in FOF (I would add ex-students as well and more widely in the World). I wish we could have studied these “pathological factors” in FOF.

BTW I am Tsuyoshi, a Japanese ex-student left on March 15th, 2008. Many thanks to this blog for the 1st big ‘eye openings’ that occurred on 2007 early spring.”

“120. arishakw – July 3, 2009

Re the small percentage of former members who post here . . .

I’ve been gone for 25 years, and being female and having flown mainly under the radar when I was in, I don’t have that much direct, personal experience to report. What I do have was reported early on. I’ve often felt that it’s better to leave the mike open for those with more recent and more difficult things to share. None of this makes me indifferent to or approving of the FoF.

I know people who just don’t want to pick at that scab again, or no longer feel enough of a connection to put time and emotional energy into it.

There are many reasons why someone might not post here yet be as appalled by what goes on in the FoF as the most vociferous posters.”

you grok?

58. brucelevy - July 31, 2009

59. brucelevy - July 31, 2009

60. brucelevy - July 31, 2009

57. ton

“…it may very well be that he’s just another cold fish, a heartless, vain-glorious narcissist; something the fof tends to attract and breed. one thing that ’shines through’ from his ‘lofty’ posting position, is his lack of compassion. he doesn’t seem to care about anyone but himself, the poor buggers in the fof are of little concern to him and of course the bloggers here are beneath his contempt.”

That’s pretty much how it feels to me also.

61. DXP - July 31, 2009

itstwinetime

Oh, I see. You are still submerged in 4th way stuff. ‘Search’ is not a bible (neither is the bible for that matter) and I would say that passage you quoted is seriously flawed – or you are seriously taking it out of context. You might want to consider not trying to change those who comment on a blog and work on yourself if that is what you are advocating for. (snort – trying to control a blog is probably the most futile endeavor ever!!)

Bruce, the catcerto is great. You know that cat has a whole series of concerts. Wonder if it does live performance?

62. elena - July 31, 2009

You’re a sad bunch of people, eating like doves from the hands of a Swine.

You do not know how to discriminate.
Good luck

63. brucelevy - July 31, 2009

Only for tuna (fortuna?).

64. Tatyana - July 31, 2009

53. itstwinetime

It was a typo. Why do feel like you need to stir the pot anyway? Are you on a mission to wake us up?

65. elena - July 31, 2009

Thanks Panoritsa and Dragon for the stand up!

66. elena - July 31, 2009

No difference in the indifference.
The like-mindedness puts itself to work
and as long as envy can get its hold on the cutlery
all are in for the feast.

No difference in the numbness
the like-mindedness puts itself to work
and as long as envy can get its hold on the cutlery
all are in for the feast
Like black vultures.
Hyenas

No use watching
and waiting
the train’s left long ago.

Fixed to the fixes
numbed to the point
and ever so willing
to let it go on.

67. Ames Gilbert - July 31, 2009

So, itstwinetime, if I understand you correctly, these are the central themes of your posts, in no particular order. You are here to amuse yourself, inform us (over and over again) that you have superior being and knowledge, tell us that you have found a conscious school with an awakened teacher, and no, you are not Greg Goodwin. Have I covered the salient points?

Why are you taking time to tell us this stuff? None of it is verifiable, none of seems particularly helpful, though it is likely that some posts that I perceive as not being useful to me are actually of use to someone else who has a different point of view and background.

Since you could just quietly observe and continue to consciously amuse yourself without posting, it seems natural to assume that you have some motive in telling us how you stayed in the FoF just the right amount of time, how successful you have been in getting beyond the FoF experience, and pointing out your viewpoint that we bloggers are hopelessly mired in digesting the experience. What is your motive?

By the way, I’m amazed by your claim that in thirty years you had not a single thought about a person you were married to. I guess that at your lofty altitude, there is no room for gratitude, or even sentiment.

68. X-ray - July 31, 2009

36. itstwinetime – July 30, 2009

‘I am strongly suggesting that you (YOU) look at the possibility that your experience with the FOF/Burton, is all your fault, not theirs.’

That’s exactly what we did many years in the cult, we’ve been taught to blame ourselves for every thing. Now it’s the time to call things up by their own names.

69. James Mclemore - July 31, 2009

Itstwinetime –

I agree wholeheartedly with the summation you made earlier that the only real changes that can be had are the ones produced in ourselves. How you seem to assume that no one but you is doing or has ever done any of that sort of investigation or work is beyond me. I have the distinct feeling you think we should feel fortunate for your guidance. Earlier today you said,
“Between your ears. Fix yourself, and the whole world is different. You will see the fof AS IT IS, and how it fits into the whole that is Life on Earth at this time.”

I think you may be onto something that is possibly quite true, in that it may well be in reality, that everything that arises somehow fits into the whole. Yet if you have the vision to see that, how come you do not see the Blog that you have just been posting on, as fitting into “the whole that is Life on Earth at this time”. I mean, HERE we ARE. It would make it seem that your vision is slightly ahead of what you are able to put into practice at the moment, or that at least you choose to exclude some things from that all-encompassing idea. Take hope however, there is the possibility that if you “Fix yourself”, you will then be able to see the Blog “AS IT IS”.

70. Yesri Baba - July 31, 2009

“That’s why people believe the 4thway and Gurdjieff at all – 99% can’t be directly verified”

99% is allegory and metaphor taken literally.

“man is a machine, but with certain efforts, can awaken”

Metaphor.

Anyone who tells you you are asleep has fallen into a trap and has been taught by someone who fell into this trap. A bit more later- first another ‘story’

wait… are you asleep right now? Of course not. Are you a machine? Of course not.

Here’s the story. It’s the one about the sly man and the devil.
No, I am not going to tell it again it should be fresh in your minds.

Here’s the deal. It is an allegory.
It is about a stage- a certain strata of the psyche. It is about the ‘3rd state’, turya, emptiness, the ‘void’. The gates of heaven is the gateless gate through which lies the non-dual state, ‘4th state’, turyatita etc.
Like Mr. time was telling us all see- we play all the parts- we are St. Peter, the Guy (or Gal but at that point, hey, it all tends to blend together) and the devil.
Telling St. Peter you remember yourself isn’t saying those words it is taking the knowing of emptiness, consciousness, essence, whatever as your own.
But you see there is no you. It is all emptiness, consciousness, essence, fill in whatever you want to call it.
When you take it as your own you fall into the trap that itswinetime, greggy, all of us to one degree or another fall into. When you fall into that trap you get to keep your wrong ideas, wrong divisions (there are none) and get to stay on the wheel of bullshit for however long it takes.

Right now- are you asleep. Of course not.

Who are you?

You are the Absolute.
You are not asleep, you are the dream.

71. dragon - July 31, 2009

Coming along today and reading the posts of itstwinetime gives me a feeling of amazement.

Is his story true? Perhaps, it may be HIS truth.

Why did this guy need a spiritual teacher ( or better a priest, a mum, a psychiatrist or better a friend) ? It is obvious, listen to his sermons.

And the worst of all: he is lacking humour!

Maybe he is going to change himself into the superman kissed by Friedrich Nietzsche…..

Farewell Boy!

Why should the FOFblogmoderator ban you? You are still a human being, think it over…..

72. dragon - July 31, 2009

ITSTWINTIME,

NO the BLOG is not made of crazy and aggressive lunatics.

Come off it, the BLOG is WARNING!

AND YOU CAN’T STOP IT with your sermons.

The core of the FOF is sick and what do you pray tell about the 4th way?

Your way of telling stories really puts a damper on things.

73. Ellen - July 31, 2009

#70, Yesri,

Right on, bro. Literal understanding of metaphors is bound to keep ya on the wheel, spinning the sequence and protecting your “higher self” from your’s (and everybody else’s) “lower self”. Not to say there is not some sense to be made of that dance, but the Fellowship’s interpretation of it is upside down and backwards.

Yes, I remember that floating gar-barge. What was the final fate? Jomo did you post that, too? (I musta missed it.)

74. itstwinetime - July 31, 2009

54. elena – July 30, 2009

Swine

You can take all your bullshit and eat it yourself and have a picnic with anyone who wishes to argue with you but I don’t buy any of it for even one second no matter where it comes from.

It comes from sick pimps like you.
================

Sow

Yes, “dear friend”, your rehabilitation is coming along quite well. But the tourettes seems to be coming out much more than usual, maybe you should take some LONG walks into rush hour traffic, it might settle your nerves.

75. itstwinetime - July 31, 2009

55. elena – July 30, 2009
You are rather desperately trying to lower my self esteem but it’s never been higher love! You obviously manage to manipulate quite a few here but your tactics are so low and transparent that you’ll be caught out in a short while.
Too bad you’ll have to tell those paying you that you too failed. That your attempts at getting me to do what you wanted failed lousily!
You’re pitiful you blood and cock suckers
===========

SOW—
Look at the way your tourettes keeps popping up. This is getting more and more hilarious. With every post, your mental state continues to dwindle. LOL.

As for being “caught out”, and “failing”, you’re just dreaming – like all those years in the loving arms of Haven and Burton – just dreaming your life of nonexistence.

Very poor try, but then what can be expected from a brain-damaged, angry-as-hell jilted woman, eh?

76. nigel harris price - July 31, 2009

Excuse me, fofblogmoderator…..

Would it not be a good idea for a time for no-one except ‘itstwinetime’ to be able to post on the blogsite? His/her ‘head of steam’ would soon petre out…..Nigel.

77. nigel harris price - July 31, 2009

Perhaps?…..

“You only have one life; you value it!” (‘Highlander’, starring Christopher Lambert and Sean Connery)…..Nigel.

And the best song from that movie – “Who wants to live forever?”

Maybe, just maybe…..maybe it might make us all think…..Nigel.

78. elena - July 31, 2009

Itswinetime

I’m a brain-damaged, angry-as-hell jilted woman and you’re still defending the act of raping young men, abandoning children and old women, ripping off every adult and looking like Barbies in a puffed up brothel in the meantime.

If being angry as hell for it makes me brain damaged, please don’t ever let my brain get fixed.

79. elena - July 31, 2009

If you walk on water,
Don’t be surprised if you sink
If you walk through the desert
Don’t be surprised by the presences
If you take on a cross
Don’t be surprised if you’re crucified

The sour taste of people yelling
as they reach their boundaries
and watch with delight
how others throw stones
at each other

It’s easier to dwindle with the insults
Than with the bullets
And even easier with the lack of love
From the crowd
But the heart grows tough
Like the feet on the ground

It matters if you’re not a saint but a wo-man
To the men more than the women
As they come of age
And recover where they belong on Earth

80. dragon - July 31, 2009

75. itstwinetime,

why are you so afraid of Elena?

Climbing up your lower self you may find insight and gain experience for yourself while reading Elena’s posts.

You mustn’t shout and kick…..

The Blog in its structure is something like the Delphic oracle.

Consult it and you will get YOUR answer. If you are unable to interpret it in the adaequate way you will destroy a great ….

81. elena - July 31, 2009

You are like the living dead
Running behind illusions
Walking like ghosts behind your own corpses
ever so afraid to stand up to the facts.

I will no longer walk by your drum
Nor stand behind you
Before no matter what crowd
I will no longer stick to your side
But stand where I stand
And die if I have to
but live a life not like a ghost
on your side!

82. elena - July 31, 2009

For the Boy

Of all who are here
Your icing is weird
For you are clear
But fear…
You don’t hear either

Your rope is tight and long
But not strong
To jump above
The middle ground is fine for a while
but not for now
or for long.

83. elena - July 31, 2009

Dragon

Like an oracle indeed
With the Spirit in eternity
while the bodies ask about time

Man lives and dies like flowers
Grows like creepers
Struggles like weeds
Towards light

The phenomenal world
Is not only a metaphor of the soul
But a world in its own right
Sculpting the Spirit
With facts.

84. dragon - July 31, 2009

Elena,

I got it, itstwinetime is the bandleader of Nirvana:

look and I am sure that’s shocked you because it is the explanation for his well informed use of psyco-speech:

85. Ames Gilbert - July 31, 2009

Harry Hindsight (#76-283),
Thanks for your very clear analysis, I think you have it right. Girard is, from my POV, one of the chief enablers because the major work he does is to normalize Burton’s fantasy; if enough people accept a particular fantasy to be fact, then in a way it becomes so, at least temporarily. Of course, there is some circularity here; Burton reinforces Girard’s authority and gravitas by claiming that Girard is ‘conscious’ and a true product of his ‘conscious teaching’.

In your last paragraph, you say, “If you talk to people who have been up close to Robert in the hardcore sex rituals, the picture emerges of a man helplessly addicted and identified with his next sex fix. Most, eventually get to feel sorry for him and regard him as a sad, old, deluded joke who provides prestige, privilege and material comfort in exchange for weird sex. They somehow balance their own instinctive needs with his obsessive demands and refer to their time spent in scheduled sex performances as being, “on duty”.”

It seems to me that this state of balance you refer to can only be temporary as well. I talked to some of the young men in question myself in the process of trying to learn from the situation, and have heard the testimony of others in these pages. Personally, I got a range of responses from being ashamed and horrified to claims of spiritual progress and ‘it’s worth it’. I can certainly see that in most cases, eventually the normalization fails and deep wounds are exposed. Right now I’m trying to understand what happens when the normalization does take hold on a long-term basis. Some of the young men are no longer young and beautiful now, and have been replaced in Burton’s harem, yet they remain in the FoF. I happen to believe from my own experience that no sexual encounters can be really casual, that some kind of bond is formed between sexual partners, even unwilling ones. If this is true, then Burton’s partners are bound to him in a way that others are not, and some of the bonds seem to be very, very strong.

86. itstwinetime - July 31, 2009

78. elena – July 31, 2009
Itswinetime
I’m a brain-damaged, angry-as-hell jilted woman and you’re still defending the act of raping young men, abandoning children and old women, ripping off every adult and looking like Barbies in a puffed up brothel in the meantime.

———
See how the sow lies?

At no time have I defended even one aspect of what goes on in the FOF, with burton or any of it. I am quite conscious enough to know exactly WHAT I have written here, and you, SOW, are a god damn liar, and you have many enablers here (just exactly in the same way as burton has his enablers – see how you all have learned?).

This tendency of yours, and your enablers, to create strawmen and then argue against them, is evidence of your brain damage. You can not see clearly, nor think clearly. You just ramble.

87. elena - July 31, 2009

Mad
Not bad
Brain-damaged
Not brainwashed
Angry
Not numbed
A woman in hell
But not a fascist on Earth
Like Swine

88. elena - July 31, 2009

Dear Mr. Swine,

I hadn’t seen your post before I wrote the previous one so allow me to answer you.

How much do you get paid for turning reality upside down and backwards?
For how long have you been working in the Cult that you’re such an expert at that?
I’m afraid you’re showing signs of disruption, take your time, go back to sleep, wake up!

I’ve a busy day today
so I’ll check back on your state
tonight!

89. elena - July 31, 2009

Oh and Mr. Swine,

You’re getting better at it. Putting a sick man like you to say and do all the sick things you are doing and pretend you have no connection with the Fellowship of Friends is a great strategy for those who buy it.
Too bad it’s only a few!

How very convenient for the Fellowship to disassociate from someone like you working like a lunatic for them! The one who does the dirty jobs:

Threaten people physically
insult them
tell them they are impotent to change anything
brainwash them a little further with tough talk

Then the Silk Barbies in the puffed up brothel don’t have to acknowledge that their dirty little pimping is moving into serious criminality and can continue to live their half life becoming cancer patients while the other half celebrates it!

90. Vonlenska - July 31, 2009

76 Nigel – it did not happen with you and elena and probably wont with itswinetime. I think people have many reasons to post on blog. Many reasons are simple personal problem reasons and nothing to do with blog in reality. Like crazy people sitting in corner shouting to the sky and leading imaginary conversations where they show they are right to compensate for reality problems.

91. itstwinetime - July 31, 2009

Oh Ames, m’man, let’s hear you chime in on this silliness below:

To wit:
89. elena – July 31, 2009
Oh and Mr. Swine, You’re getting better at it. Putting a sick man like you to say and do all the sick things you are doing and pretend you have no connection with the Fellowship of Friends is a great strategy for those who buy it. Too bad it’s only a few!
(snip)
Threaten people physically, insult them, tell them they are impotent to change anything, brainwash them a little further with tough talk.
————–

You’re supposed to be the cool, the calm, and oh so collected old man around here, with the “high level of being” and presumably “knowledge” – since you’ve got lots of gray hair and stayed connected to your evil guru for EEK! 17 years – wife 20! – (how could you both be so gullible??? or should I call it like it is, asleep???) – let me hear how you deflect your “dear friend’s” lies and obfuscations detailed above.

Are YOU as brain damaged as your “dear friend” is?

ps- My ex-wife was already an ex when I split from your favorite hobby of 17 years EEK!, so I had no further reason to think about her anymore, since she specifically and directly told me she would have NO FURTHER COMMUNICATION with me ever again, unless I rejoined. Thus, Mr. Genius, how do you NOW explain your stupid remark:
“By the way, I’m amazed by your claim that in thirty years you had not a single thought about a person you were married to. I guess that at your lofty altitude, there is no room for gratitude, or even sentiment.”
————-
Right, no room.

92. DXP - July 31, 2009

itstwinetime, I know who you are and also know that you have had a few thoughts about your ex wife. Also, apparently you and Elena were made for each other.

93. itstwinetime - July 31, 2009

92. DXP – July 31, 2009

itstwinetime, I know who you are and also know that you have had a few thoughts about your ex wife. Also, apparently you and Elena were made for each other.
———————–
Nope. You know nothing of the kind, and that’s the truth jack.
As for Ms. Sow, you’re quite right. We were made for each other, which is why she continues stalking me.

94. DXP - July 31, 2009

itstwinetime, yes I do know who you are and you are being really stupid. You COULD have some good ideas, but you get in your own way.

95. Tatyana - July 31, 2009

Wow! Mystery… Soap opera even. Can’t wait on more “news” about ex wife. WIll it turn out to be Elena?

96. Mikey - July 31, 2009

DXP=Greg=Itstwinetime
Unless you would care to prove otherwise.
PS. This page mostly sucks

97. itstwinetime - July 31, 2009

94. DXP – July 31, 2009
itstwinetime, yes I do know who you are and you are being really stupid. You COULD have some good ideas, but you get in your own way.

95. Tatyana – July 31, 2009
Wow! Mystery… Soap opera even. Can’t wait on more “news” about ex wife. WIll it turn out to be Elena?

================

Do you all see how ignorance spreads unchecked.
One lie leads to another lie and now the enablers pass it on.
This is getting ridiculous, but I don’t care, it will dwindle soon enuf.

Maybe the DXP character ought to put his money where his mouth is… but NoooooOOOOoooooo, he won’t do that.

98. DXP - July 31, 2009

istwinetime you can blow Smokey up your a**

99. fofblogmoderator - July 31, 2009

This is ridiculous! This page has filled up faster than most and it’s full of bickering.

Itstwinwtime is banned. In my opinion he is NOT an FOF shill, but just someone who left 30 years ago, stumbled on this site and saw fit to spread his opinion ad nauseum. He’s made his point, offered his opinion and now it’s time for him to go. He’s not DXP he’s not Greg.

I’ve said it before, I’d rather have a blog page with only two “worthwhile” comments than have 97 comments that don’t seem to amount to anything.

The name calling, the accusations, the speculation and all the rest are a waste for the potential of this blog. Let’s all calm down and find a new thread….please!

100. fofblogmoderator - July 31, 2009

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