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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 76 July 14, 2009

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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. WhaleRider - July 14, 2009

Sometimes there is a fine line between sanity and insanity.

If a person claims that the spirits of Voltaire or Vivaldi were “working with them” exclusively, “hovering over the dinner table as we speak”, then personally, I would question their sanity.

If a person claimed to be “working with” the spirit of Dante or Goethe through studying their writings, then that is another matter altogether. The latter seems like a healthier relationship with the dead guys, one that we all could equally share…sans the narcissism.

Burton’s assertion that Leonardo Da Vinci is “working with” him and his cult is pure narcissistic nonsense which, IMO, qualifies as psychotic.

My apologies, Nigel, if I have offended you. There is no question that the works of Shakespeare, Whitman and the 42 other dead guys are potent sources of wisdom and insight, even to this day. For me, they continue to live on through the immortal body of their work.

I haven’t ever personally read anything written by a leprechaun or a troll. But I was once moved by viewing the image of an ancient woven unicorn in Paris…

2. Kid Shelleen - July 14, 2009

I wonder if anyone comes here anymore to check on Fellowship of Friends or Pathway To Presence information?

So…If you’ve been to a prospective student meeting recently, or met someone who told you that he knows a man who knows, and you’ve gone home and googled Fellowship of Friends, Robert Burton, etc. and found yourself here, and read through this maze of tangled thoughts, take a moment and drop a line. Direct questions and/or random comments are fine. Most of us here are ex-Fellowship of Friends members trying to both digest our experiences within the organization and give fair warning to seekers who might feel the attraction to an “esoteric school.” Good luck.

3. in2it - July 14, 2009

I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell:
And after many days my Soul return’d
And said, “I myself am Heav’n and Hell”

Omar Khayyam

——-

“You don’t have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.”
C.S. Lewis

4. nigel harris price - July 14, 2009

Dear whalerider

…..this guy from the local newspaper contacted me today, after I had cc’d him about the letter to Chris Porteus, above, in last section (76)…..

Nigel

I think a feature article written by yourself in the first person would be really interesting, describing your condition, its diagnosis and the last 20 years and in particular, how it has influenced your work in both positive and negative ways.

If you could write about 800 words for us we would be extremely grateful. The picture editor may feel he needs a new image or may go with some of the many file shots we have of you.

Any questions please get in touch.

Patrick

Patrick Phelvin

Information Co-ordinator

Express & Echo

01392 442257

5. Jomo P. - July 14, 2009
6. Bares Reposting - July 15, 2009

Thanks J. P. for the link in 76/5. Here is a selected quote from that page that sums up the FoF experience that many have had:

“I do not think this is ‘teaching’. To me it reads as sheer cruelty from a desperately insecure and unhappy person who wants others to feel as off balance, insecure and unhappy as he, so that, if only temporarily, he can transfer his misery and bafflement to a mark and temporarily feel in control. . .

The only thing we can do with people like this is see them as having no control over a dangerous part of themselves and stay out of reach so they cant claw us again. And if possible warn others to be on their guard–be nice to these folks but never, ever become intimate with them, because that intimacy is what will trigger them to lash out and teach you one of their so called ‘lessons.’”

7. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

1 whalerider

I wrote a poem in a manic/psychotic episode, and have just found it in my ‘My Documents’ files. It was during a time when I had first been introduced to working with computers and had been walking down the High Street in Exeter, actually thinking I was a computer (which is not so far from the truth since the computer ‘set-up’ was based on the human psyche – RAM/ROM, VDU etc.)…..

A certain interpretive difference
Awaits the twice-born.
Whitman’s heaven and hell
Give way to the first’s glory.

Litter picking/placing and decoding
Delights self and humanity.
From former form absorbed,transposed
And Earth’s imperfection more than satisfies.

Nothing goes away;
Neither poverty, hardship nor necessity.
All hangs ,deliberately placed
By angels beyond the screen.

The sun’s crime overcome,
He returns from sweeping the universe
To its limit in crashing waves,
That tell of the new Eternity.

(nhp) 1996

…..I think if you can, in an even small way ‘get into’ this poem, you will see that, not only do I write in symbolic style, but there is some ‘moving centred’ analogy to my works. Do you see what I mean in:-

“All hangs deliberately placed
By angels beyond the screen”

Again I do not wish to offend YOU, as a mental health care professional, but you have to remember that I am classified as psychotic by the profession. HOWEVER, THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MANIC-DEPRESSIVE WHO SOMETIMES GOES ‘LOONEY TUNES’ IN HIS INTERPRETATION OF THE WORLD AND AN EVIL ‘ALL WAYS’ RAPING, SCHIZOPHRENIC, NACISSISTIC BASTARD WHO TRIES TO ‘LORD IT’ OVER HIS ‘BLIND’ FOLLOWERS…..Nigel.

8. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

This draft of my mental health booklet has been posted before, but may help again now…..

“THE YEARS BETWEEN”

My journey through English mental health institutions and services, to recovery and stability.

By

Nigel Harris Price

(Dedicated to the work of the Crisis Resolution Team and the inspiration of Stephen Fry)

Chapters:-

Introduction

1) Lucid thought?

2) What you see, what you hear, who you feel you are.

3) “There can be only ONE” – the God thing.

4) Why your friends like it when you make them happy.

5) The booze factor.

5a) Bring back smoking in mental institutions.

6) The influence and inspiration of music, poetry and films.

7) The police approach.

8) Psychiatrists – what they really know and why they can only see from the outside.

9) Coming across the neo-Nazis in the hospitals.

10) Therapy among the clients – not ‘therapising’ by the hospital staff.

11) Mental health ‘clubs’.

12) The drugs don’t work – or do they?

13) The achievable aim of independent living.

14) Being practical – dealing with the states of bi-polar disorder.

Introduction

Someone I used to know commented that “Nigel is fine for the most part, but now and again ‘the cheese slips off his cracker’”. This person was the protagonist in implementing my first stay ‘under section’ (meaning ‘to be, or thought to be a danger to oneself or others’), in the local mental health institution and he stayed as an acquaintance for 14 years until I realised that he was using my reliance on him in my initial stages of recovery as a chance to take advantage of me. But this realisation was the key factor in coming to the decision to write about my experiences of coming to terms with my bi-polar affective disorder and managing to live as a relatively normal human being.

This little booklet is in no way an attempt at an autobiography – I feel no need to go back to my childhood or even the events that led up to a near-successful suicide attempt in California after a business failure. I have told those tales to a few people and some of them were on-hand at the time. It is just that people I know and those in the mental health profession thought that a true story about success in dealing with a serious mental illness and coming back to stability through the long process of recovery would prove inspiring for others who ‘fight with similar demons’. The road has been hard – 14 years from my first hospitalisation for bi-polar to becoming a professional adult education teacher in my chosen field of precious metals – but I find now I am through ‘the valley of the shadow of Death’ that I bear no grudges – ‘l’experience humaine’ and all that.

Rather than to proceed chronologically, I have found it useful to dwell on different aspects of mental health and the ‘care’ that goes with it as experienced by both myself and others I have come across – both patients/clients and mental health care professionals. Some things that I will write about are standard experiences and conditions in which most people find themselves whereas other things are intended as eye-openers, hopefully to close the rift between what patients/clients are unable to put across and the way that the structure of health care deals with things that it can only experience and witness from the outside, as it were.

1) Lucid thought?

When you are admitted to a health care institution, one of the first things the nurses and doctors do is draw up a review of your condition and particularly as to what constitutes your symptoms. Most people who are admitted are described in the review as ‘not experiencing lucid thought’. From my own history, I can say that the thoughts WERE lucid and what the health care professionals meant is that the thoughts were not practical and related to getting through on a day-to-day basis. It may not seem that thinking you are a cross between Henry V and Luke Skywalker is normal, but when you are born of warrior-nobility blood and are trying to battle with authorities and institutions that do not cater for anyone who ‘does not fit the mould’ and you are deriving excitement out of new learning experiences, then it is understandable why these thoughts occur.

2) What you see, what you hear, who you feel are.

I suppose if there is anything that puts a bi-polar person off it is when their experiences are ‘awry’ and they seem to misinterpret things they see, hear and feel. The problem that the doctors are worried about are the ‘sensory anomalies’ that patients experience, and rightly so, since as, especially as in the case with schizophrenia, such anomalies range from merely off-putting to devastatingly evil-inducing. Personally, I have not heard voices, as schizophrenics do, and any visual anomalies have been explicable but there is the possibility of the ‘sufferer’ becoming unnerved by the experiences in the ‘highs’ and ‘lows’.

3) “There can be only ONE” – the God thing.

Bipolar ‘highs’ can be the source of illumination just as religious states are purported to be. Some religious passages talk of the ‘God-state’ and, to a certain extent, that is exactly what is experienced in a manic episode. Although one wishes to champion causes and fly in the face of petty authority, this is often interpreted by mental health professionals as ‘delusions of grandeur’ yet I often wonder whether these professionals want everyone to be in a ‘socially acceptable, quasi-normal’ state. The quote above, in quotation marks, from the film ‘Highlander’ quite adequately describes the process which goes into producing a mental health ‘high’. Many sufferers from bipolar affective disorder ‘whip themselves into a frenzy’ in stressful situations and feel that they are ‘fighting on the side of God’.

4) Why your friends like it when you make them happy.

Manic states are often infectious in a social environment. A bipolar person in such a situation can ‘whip up a frenzy’ of enjoyable moods in others and this can be exacerbated by the free-flow of alcohol. Often, such a ‘party’ can go on all night long with an upwardly spiralling ‘high’.

5) The booze factor

There are natural and synthetic drugs, both used as necessary or recreational mood- or state-altering drugs. As I am from Welsh stock, have green eyes and like a tipple of beer or cider, I feel an affinity for that best-of-the-bunch actor Richard Burton (originally Jenkins). Alcohol is, in essence, a depressant/suppressant, which functions as a damper for highs and a bottomless well for misery. I thank my lucky stars that I was saved from the sorry fate that sidelined George Best to astral realms.

5a) Bring back smoking in mental institutions.

Mental health authorities are ‘tearing their hair out’ in an attempt to come to terms with the ‘no-smoking’ ruling in NHS institutions. The conclusion that mental health professionals have come to is that tobacco contains substances that have the same calming effect that can be found in the synthetic drugs that are specifically prescribed for mental health disorders. Now, many institutions allow smoking in certain areas, in an effort to keep the patients/clients relatively happy.

6) The inspiration of music, poetry and films.

Most people, not necessarily those with mental health problems, derive inspiration from music, poetry and films. However, a person suffering from bipolar affective disorder will have ‘favourites’ from these art-forms to which they turn ‘when things get tough’. I remember one of my friends calling round to my house when I had been watching ‘Field of Dreams’ about 4-5 times. He had to call my employer because I was unable to go to work.

7) The police approach.

The police have ‘grown up’ a great deal since 1992, when I was first sectioned under the Mental Health Act, and my last sectioning in early-June of 2009. The police have had a problem with the treatment of arrestees under this Act and have had to consult with mental health professionals in order to find a reasonable solution for dealing with these arrestees. Let me insist, “POLICE CELLS ARE NOT A PLACE OF SAFETY!”

8) Psychiatrists – what they really know and why they can only see from the outside.

One of the problems with psychiatrists is that they do not have in-depth experience of the trauma-inducing states of their mental health patients. They see the symptoms ‘from the outside’ and feel that certain lengths of time spent in the ‘loony bin’ being drugged up will solve the problem. This only goes part of the way to helping a client recover and deal with the ‘outside world’.

9) Coming across the neo-Nazis in the hospitals.

I suppose it is reasonable, although naive, to believe that all staff in mental health institutions have the welfare of the patients/clients at heart. Although the situation has improved vastly in the 16 years in which I have been involved with them I must say that there are still staff who get a feeling of superiority and dominance by working with mental patients. Conversely, there are other staff who have been in my local institution for many years and are very reliable as a source of comfort and solving problems.

10) Therapy among the clients – not therapising by the hospital staff.

Many patients in mental health institutions are quite happy to vegetate in these places and not take the process of recovery into their own hands. The fact is that there are many things other than the Occupational Therapy sessions which people can do to help their recovery along. Talking with other patients about their symptoms and problems can help as can becoming diligent in the area of ‘housework’, which can include doing one’s own laundry and tidying one’s room on a regular basis.

11) Mental health ‘clubs’.

There are quite a few patients/clients in the mental health sector who never come off the ‘hospitalization/release/relapse’ cycle and never really recover enough to live a fruitful and enjoyable life. The fact is that they need to make an effort and come to terms with their lives and not be reliant on the “I’m mentally ill, so I do not need to do anything” syndrome. My first head nurse in the local institution said to me a long time ago “You ARE NOT YOUR MENTAL ILLNESS, Nigel. You are STILL AN INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEING”.

12) The drugs don’t work – or do they?

It is difficult for mental health professionals to know what should constitute a medication regime for a patient. There are typical and atypical drugs in use (typical being those that have been tested and have a ‘track record’ and atypical being those that have been tested only to a limited extent). The fact is that the professionals CANNOT ULTIMATELY PREDICT whether the medication will work as they wish and, as such, the regime is a fine balancing act (type of drug, dosage etc.). Also, one of the big problems is that a patient will stop taking the medication if the side-effects become unworkable for them.

13) The achievable aim of independent living.

Mental health patients NEED TO WANT TO RECOVER. It is not so much (as has been my experience) that you can will your own life but you have to take the opportunities that are presented to you to become more self-reliant and move out of the ‘permanent mental-health patient’ stigma. Is it worth it? The answer is that you cannot tell beforehand. There are many risks; the facts that you will have to have an adequate work life, social life and may need more rest than other people.

14) Being practical – dealing with the states of bipolar affective disorder.

It takes many years and, probably, many admissions to the mental hospital, to reach a state of self-understanding and the realisation that, although one has a serious mental illness, one can deal with things in life, even though it may take frequent care visits from Community Psychiatric Nurses. Sufferers may have to restructure their lives around what they can reasonably handle, since bipolar disorder is often brought on by stress, and make sure they involve themselves with people who provide a healing and positive environment.

9. in2it - July 15, 2009

It’ll be interesting to see how people simply dismiss this, ignore it, or deny it, but personally I find it interesting:

http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol10/articles/hitlerhistory.shtml

For me, there’s a growing sense that part of my (our) error in being conned by Burton and lured into the FOF was the infatuation with Gurdjieff and his ideas.

10. in2it - July 15, 2009

Regarding Jomo P.’s reference to Bill Murray (post no. 5 above), it rings true. Interesting man, but like so many people who draw attention to themselves through their power and money, or through their careers, it’s good to keep one’s ability to think critically firmly intact:

http://www.nowpublic.com/strange/bill-murray-crashes-parties-around-new-york

“There’s an urban legend that’s gone round until no one is sure who it happened to, or if it happened at all. It was late one night, a few years ago, when a young man was walking through Union Square Park. He suddenly felt someone behind him, their hands over his eyes. When he turned in surprise, there was Bill Murray, his creased face leaning in close. Bill whispered, “No one is ever going to believe you,” and then just walked away.”

11. WhaleRider - July 15, 2009

Thanks, Nigel. Nice work. I share many of your points of view, with the exception of your view on smoking tobacco.

You say: “The conclusion that mental health professionals have come to is that tobacco contains substances that have the same calming effect that can be found in the synthetic drugs that are specifically prescribed for mental health disorders.”

To what substances are you referring?

IMO, the only calming effect tobacco has on a user is that by smoking a cigarette it resolves the anxiety of not knowing when you will have your next one.

Nicotene raises blood pressure and heart rate by constricting blood vessels which most people experience as stimulating; it can also cause arrhythmia, an effect which can dangerously exacerbate the side effects of certain neuroleptic medications like Clozaril (clozapine) and Haldol (haloperidol). I certainly wouldn’t want to go on record recommending mixing either of the two with a Joe Camel. IMO, ingesting cannabis orally would be more beneficial for its documented calming effects.

Why shorten your life? The longer you live, the more your chances of science finding better therapies for mental illness. I place great hope in stem cell research.

I only compare you to Burton in the grandiose language that you borrowed from him about angels “working with you”. You consciously choosing and making the effort to work with them is much more self-empowering, don’t you reckon? I think it would also be self-empowering for you to write that article for Express & Echo, too.

The difference between you and Burton is that you can admit that you have mental issues. It’s the people who are crazy and claim they are not who pose the greatest danger to society.

Did you happen to catch my post last page on folie à deux from Wikipedia?

12. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

11 whalerider

Thanks for your helpful advice. Actually, you are right about tobacco and nicotine – I know I am an addict in that regard – I can go for at least two weeks without alcohol, but as regards a ‘ciggy’ – the longest I have gone recently was when I had my appendectomy and could not smoke on the ward (three days). I think this finding better remedies for mental illness is sort of a moot point. Bi-polars are constantly having their medication changed and ‘tweeked’ and I think I will have to approach the interlude of death with that in mind. I have some of my students to approach about more Complimentary Medicine alternatives to the synthetics I take, some of which have dire side effects (I now take Depakote as a mood-stabiliser – epileptics take it as an anti-convulsant, Olanzipine as an anti-psychotic, which makes me drowsy through the day, and Lithium, which is a salt and makes me want to a] drink lots of water, especially at night, and b] urinate at all times of the day, because of the ‘flushing’ effect). However, I think along the same lines as the comedian/author/raconteur bi-polar sufferer, Stephen Fry in saying that, even though the illness is both gift and curse, I would not be without it, given the range of human emotions which can be experienced. Hypo-mania, if ‘held at bay’ during the times it is experienced, can be a very creative state. But I have the Price motto to turn to with regard to living a long life…..

“Vita brevis, gloria aeterna est” (Life is short, glory is eternal)

Article for Patrick Phelvin in next post…..Nigel.

13. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

Hi whalerider again! I actually think those angels must be taking part in some kind of work of their own, even to take notice of us…..

…..”LABRYNTHINE WAYS”…..

(A descriptive ‘journey’ through the Mental Health ‘maze’ in Exeter)

by Nigel Harris Price BA Hons, Cert Ed, MIfL.

In June 1989, when I lost my business in California, I was brought back to Devon, in a highly depressed state. My parents had difficulties in coming to terms with how I was acting because of how I was feeling – a sense of great failure as well as guilt at having lost so much of, mainly, other peoples’ money in my business venture. There were various phrases my father used, such as “You’re out of it now” and “Can’t you see – you’ve been given a second chance”, but, unfortunately, these ‘little, helpful, snippets’ were of no immediate use. All that seemed helpful was studying things, and I remember enrolling on, and completing a Pre-School Playgroup Leaders Course in Exmouth (which helped me in kindling a little desire to get, eventually, into the education field, as well as realising that, when I am unwell, the company of mainly women is so beneficial). My wonderful mother also gave me a book entitled “The Celts”, which gave me some insight into my ancestral past as a double-Celt (Price/Wallace).

3 and ½ years later, I thought I had found a ‘path out’ of my depression, when I was accepted on to the Post Graduate Certificate of Education Course at St Luke’s. The stimulus of new ideas and the chance of ‘doing something constructive, using my experience’ fuelled an ever-ascending ‘high’ and, although I gained an ‘A’ grade in my Teaching Practice, I was ‘struck off’ the course by the Educational Management. It has to be said that I found hypocrisy, misogyny and teachers ‘just doing their job’, rather than wanting to take an active role in the essential growth of their student charges. Fighting all these ‘wrongs’ led me to be sectioned in Wonford House for 4 months in the summer of 1992. I could hardly sit down to rest or eat for the first month and was very aggressive towards the Head Psychiatrist but found most of the nurses very congenial. It was really at this point that the diagnosis of manic-depression or, as it is now termed, bi-polar affective disorder, started to make sense to me.

There were numerous ‘false starts’ to either having another precious metal business, or trying to hold down stupid, petty unsocial jobs or even trying training courses such as are offered at St Loye’s Foundation, but nothing seemed to ‘stick’ and I would invariably find myself back in the ‘asylum’. However, in April of 1997, I spent 6 months at Bishopsland, near Reading – usually a place where precious metal graduates can do a year out before applying to the Royal College or for other Master’s Degree courses. There I was – 40 years old and working alongside 22 year olds (again, mostly women) and made some pieces which I was later able to sell in Polka Gallery in Martins Lane in Exeter. The set-up of the place was appealing and kindled the idea that maybe, someday, I could launch a place like that in Devon.

It was not until the summer of 2003 that the first steps towards become a professional in teaching precious metalwork were embarked upon. I had written (on-spec) to various of the further-education colleges and, suddenly, out-of-the-blue, a wonderful man named Mike Higgins invited me along to East Devon College, to show my work and to discuss the possibility of training and teaching (in parallel), the aim being a Certificate of Post Compulsory Education in my chosen field of expertise. Despite having a few mental health blips, the 3 year/part-time course was completed and I stayed with EDC and then also being employed as an evening-class teacher at Exeter College.

Age 50 saw me able to surrender my stakeholder pension and to start my own business as a precious metal teacher at Redearth Studios in Bickleigh, near Tiverton. Steve Paramor, the owner of the complex and my students, all know about my mental health difficulties and are most supportive (especially in the two times that I have had to be hospitalised). The location of the workshop is so tranquil and peacemaking – I am thankful for the reverse commute to work – out of the city and into the country. I am reminded of lines from the movie ‘Field of Dreams’, starring Kevin Costner –

“Is there a Heaven?”
“Oh yeah. It’s the place dreams come true.”

I think, if I were to champion any cause now, in my warrior-blood mode, it would be that of people not having their dreams, their aspirations and their constructive goals trashed. Patrick Phelvin asked me a question the other day:-

“Do you believe you are creative because you have bi-polar, or are you bi-polar because you are creative?”

I answer that it is only in the giving to others of our talents that we can be truly happy:-

“There was a man; they called him mad:
The more he gave, the more he had.”

14. WhaleRider - July 15, 2009

nigel:
It only takes 72 hours for the nicotene to leave your body. So after three days, it’s your head trip that trips you up. (I smoked for 5 years when I was younger.) What’s the ‘substance’ in a gambling addiction? It’s your relationship to whatever gives you a buzz (which can be ANYTHING) that is addictive.

You said: one has to “move out of the ‘permanent mental-health patient’ stigma”.

The same is true with “permanent addict stigma”.

15. dragon - July 15, 2009

Hello Everybody,

wish you all well and happy days outside the FOF!

16. sallymcnally - July 15, 2009

here’s another version of the one I sent previously.

17. sallymcnally - July 15, 2009

that didn’t work either so I give up on that one! Guess it wasn’t meant to be.

18. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

14 whalerider

With all due respect, kind sir, please do not lecture me. If I am any sort of ‘freak’, it is that I am an ‘autonomy freak’. I will not be told how to run my life by mental health authoritives, my family, the police, politicians or even the banks that rip people off. I filter advice and decide what I, given all the evidence, will do. I suggest you take a look at your text-books…..

HOW ABOUT NITROSAMINES IN CIGARETTE SMOKE THAT STEM THE ONSET OF DEMENTIA/ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE, FROM WHICH MY MOTHER, IN HER DECLINE TOWARDS DEATH AT THE HANDS OF HER FAILING HEART, SUFFERED?

You need to know ALL about these (earthly-produced) substances and their effect. With regard to your willingness to advise others, and here I stand for Elena in her ‘positione absentia’ on the blog, since her ‘rantings’ are so familiar to me (do we not share a common ‘mental health issue’?), I would say with regard to what Jesus, the Christ uttered…..

“Physician, heal thyself!”

(And a mirror towards one’s own mind would also help)…..Nigel.

19. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

Hey! I’m dopamine addictive. Trouble is, I can’t gouge the f—–g stuff out of my brain!…..Nigel.

20. in2it - July 15, 2009

“Disillusioned FBI Launches Nationwide Hunt For Some Kind Of Truth”

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/disillusioned_fbi_launches

21. WhaleRider - July 15, 2009

nigel:
I don’t recall advising you of anything, other than to support you in your writing for Express & Echo.

from Wikipedia:
“Nitrosamines can cause cancers in a wide variety of animal species, a feature that suggests that they may also be carcinogenic in humans. Epidemiological data supports a positive association between nitrite and nitrosamine intake and gastric cancer, between meat and processed meat intake and gastric cancer and oesophageal cancer, but the studies are inconclusive.

-(methylnitrosamino)- 1-(3-pyridyl)-1-butanone (abbreviated NNK) is a nitrosamine present in tobacco that is a potent procarcinogen.. It is activated by CYP2A6. It is a biomarker of exposure to cigarette smoke. It is produced upon the curing of tobacco.”

Tobacco-specific N-nitrosamines (TSNAs) are known to be some of the most potent carcinogens present in smokeless tobacco, snuff and tobacco smoke.

TSNAs consist of four chemical compounds:
N-nitrosonornicotine (NNN)
4-methyl-N-nitrosamino-1-(3-pyridyl)-1-butanone (NNK)
N-nitrosoanatabine (NAT)
N-nitrosoanabasine (NAB)

see also http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html

“Cigarette smoke is a toxic cocktail of over 4,000 chemicals including 200 poisonous and 40 carcinogenic compounds.

…also see…dub.dub.dub.endocrinetoday.com/view.aspx?rid=41435 for a recent study linking TSNA’s to mortality in diabetes & Alzheimer’s disease.

I am not finding the “calming effect” in nitrosamines as you suggested. They seem pretty scary to me.

Would you be so kind as to point me in the direction of the study or literature you read suggesting the benefits of these apparently toxic compounds?

BTW, you have posted your personal life story and your treatise on your journey through the mental health system twice now on the blog, along with your recent letters…so please don’t talk to me of lecturing, my friend.

22. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

Now, Nigel Martial Man, that you have fought your corner…..

After I had shopped for my pizza and wine at Tesco, the convenience super-market, I sat down, this evening, at sun-down, at the Eastern end of the Heavitree street sculpture and enjoyed the view across the street to the Western half of the sculpture. It glowed yellow and green in the dusk and I have pleasure in including the poetry which is inscribed upon it…..

“The world should lose her qualities if the celestial spheres should forget their wanted motions; if nature should intermit her colours and leave altogether the observations of her own laws: if the moon should wander from her beaten way; the times and seasons blend themselves by disordered and confused mixture: what shall become of man who sees not plainly that obedience unto the laws of nature is the stay of the whole world.”

Then my eyes roamed to the name of the Italian restaurant nearby…..
“Quo Vadis” (where are you going?). My brain said then…”Home, of course”.

Then I was reminded of the words of a popular song from a few years back…..

“Maybe God is one of us; just a slob like one of us;
Trying to make his way back home; way up to heaven all alone.”

May I be whom you think I may be…..may I champion the cause of your innermost life…..your dreams and your meaning for existence…..Nigel.

23. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

21 whalerider

Since when did recounting one’s experiences become lecturing another person?…and you would probably not be my friend, should you be the mental health professional I am beginning to think you are…..I trashed my first shrink’s car when I was trying to understand my suicide attempt and he said “Yes, go ahead, succeed in your next attempt…..that way you can punish both yourself and your parents” (by the way, I got a conditional discharge when he ‘shopped me’ to the police), Some of us have to fight for our God-given right to happiness, which we may radiate towards others…the only thing you have proven in your recent posts is that you can surf for information and read medical books. Pugnacious, am I? Downright right, mate…..Nigel.

(P.S. Any retorts to the present subjects from you will not be answered by me…..Meher Baba breaks his silence…..the AVATAR returns!!!!!)

24. nigel harris price - July 15, 2009

P.P.S. Your brain is the most toxic substance I percieve at the present time!!!!!Nigel.

25. sallymcnally - July 16, 2009

I’m gonna try again. aloha

26. WhaleRider - July 16, 2009

nigel:
I admire your fighting spirit. That makes you a survivor.

No need to defend yourself against the likes of me; I cannot have you hospitalized like your shrink can, nor do I choose to have that power over anyone.

I happen to agree with you that there is much in the field pf psychiatry that is toxic. including some people. In fact, have you read the book, “Toxic Psychiatry”, by Peter Breggin, MD? I highly recommend it. He says that the most dangerous thing you can do if you have mental issues is to go to a psychiatrist. I am all for giving people such as yourself as much freedom of choice as they can handle. But what choice do you have when you are in a dangerous manic episode?

I just happen to feel that the community of people dealing with mental health issues is particularly susceptible to tobacco use, which they often use to mitigate the terrible side effects of the medications like you are on.

I admit that it is a sad reality that I have difficulty accepting.

Once tobacco use becomes linked with the pleasure center (and dopamine receptors) in the brain, well…to borrow from an old cigarette slogan, “you’d rather fight than switch”, wouldn’t you? You feel strongly you are “fighting for your happiness”, as you say. So be it. You certainly have a right to your happiness. I just don’t buy into your views on TSNA’s.

Unfortunately, IMO there are those who would sanction tobacco use by people with mental health issues specifically to shorten their lives in order to unburden the state of their financial subsidy. And in fact my tax dollars that are ear marked for mental health care are funding the tobacco industry, and yes, I have issues with that.

I realize you have had to make some difficult choices in your life, Nigel, given your circumstances and must fight for every inch of your sanity.

As May West once said, “When choosing between two evils, I usually choose the one I haven’t tried before.”

27. James Mclemore - July 16, 2009

25. sallymcnally

Thanks for all those efforts. It was great to hear that old tune again.

28. Another Name - July 16, 2009

Dear All

My understanding is at this point when people need a lot of space, in which way, they probably neeed many hugs.

Nigel many virtual hugs and one of my slogans is:

9 hugs a day keeps the doctor away…Try it.

29. ton - July 16, 2009

thanks sallymac

30. Ames Gilbert - July 16, 2009

Walter,
Thanks for that (#75-227). As with most situations, the FoF experience is played out on many levels. It is a gigantic con game, and at the same time, it is possible to use it for individual (stress on the ‘individual’) advancement. There has been plenty of testimony on these pages to both. For myself, I don’t deny what I gained; I do deny that Burton or the organization has any intent to encourage individuation or to graduate members. And you are right that people care; the way I see it, it is part of being human, and to be more human is to care more, and this extends to those one doesn’t know.

31. nigel harris price - July 16, 2009

26 whalerider

Just come to a realisation, on re-reading your post (#26), having ‘scanned it’ this morning before going off to work, because it was beautifully expressed as your, and well-received and willing-to-work-with by me, TRUTH, on second reading tonight on return from Studio 6, my craft workshop…..

Remember when Elena and I had that opinionated ‘run-in’ last year? Same process this time between you and me…..

Approach…..Confrontation…..Full Awakening…..Surrender to the Medium (in this case, this blog-site)…..Lucid and Painfully/Beautifully Borne Truth.

It has been that way for all my “Many lifetimes dying and being born” (Highlander, starring Christopher Lambert and sean Connery). I am presently musically pacifying my mania, (hoping not to lead to aggressively borne lack of continuity with the Crisis Resolution Team, whom I have had to contact about an emergency prescription of Haloperidol, to help me sleep [lack of sleep makes my Martial parts fight anything that stands in my way]) with James Blunt’s “All the Lost Souls” album (I believe his “Back to Bedlam” album was well received in the States – he was described as having the ‘voice of a fallen angel’). To conclude, there is a modern metal sculpture in Exeter High Street, with an inscription which I have taken as my dictate and command…..

“On earth there’s a warrior of curious origin. He’s created, gleaming, by two dumb creatures for the benefit of men. Foe bears him against foe to inflict harm. Women often fetter him, strong as he is. If maidens and men care for him with due consideration and feed him frequently, he’ll faithfully obey them and serve them well. Men succour him for the warmth he offers in return; but this warrior will savage anyone who permits him to become too proud”

Friends go together “Per Ardua ad Astra” (RAF motto – “Through Difficulties to the Stars”)…..Nigel.

32. nigel harris price - July 17, 2009

dissension (n.) discord arising from difference in opinion.

dissent (v.) disagree openly, think differently or express different opinion (from) esp. from established or orthodox church. (n.) such difference of opinion; expression of this.

Are we all not diiferent Angles of Angels; are we not all Aspects of Love?
…..Nigel

33. nigel harris price - July 17, 2009

“Dibs had had his dark moments and had lived for a while in the shadows of life. But he had had the opportunity to move out of those dark moments and discover for himself that he could cope with the shadows and sunshine in his life.

Perhaps there is more beauty and understanding in life when the glaring sunlight is softened by the patterns of shadows. Perhaps there is more depth in a relationship that has weathered some storms. EXPERIENCE THAT NEVER DISAPPOINTS OR SADDENS OR STIRS UP FEELINGS IS A BLAND EXPERIENCE WITH LITTLE CHALLENGE OR VARIATION IN COLOUR. Perhaps when we experience confidence and faith and hope that we see materialize before our eyes this builds up within us a feeling of inner strength, courage and security.

We are all personalities that grow and develop AS A RESULT OF ALL OUR EXPERIENCES, RELATIONSHIPS, THOUGHTS, AND EMOTIONS. We are the sum total of all the parts that go into THE MAKING OF A LIFE.”

(This is the true story of a little boy named Dibs…..

He would not talk. He would not play. Judged mentally defective, he was oblivious both to other children and to his teacher; in reality he was a brilliant, lonely child trapped in a prison of fear and rage, a prison from which only he could release himself. And through psychotherapy and love, he did.)

34. nigel harris price - July 17, 2009

“When the soul is winged up…..” (Jacob Boehme)…..

…..all beautiful things of one’s fate occur to one…..Nigel.

35. nigel harris price - July 17, 2009

Beware, Robert Earl Buton, in what you indulge…..

“If there arise among you a prophet, or dreamer of dreams, and give thee a sign or wonder,
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Thou shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God proveth you, to prove whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because HE HATH SPOKEN TO TURN YOU AWAY…..”

…..and beware, all his followers, that you do not follow Burton to oblivion…..Nigel.

36. nigel harris price - July 17, 2009

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no; it is an ever-fixed mark,
That looks on tempests, and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken.
Love’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle’s compass come;
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error, and upon me prov’d,
I never writ, nor no man ever lov’d.

Sonnet CXVI (William Shakespeare)

37. Vena - July 17, 2009

Nigel,
Maybe you need to slow down. This blog has become, again, your own personal venue. Try to think about the effect that this onslaught of posting may have on those trying to find simple facts about the Fellowship. In my opinion there are too many personal diatribes to wade through. It weakens the potential integrity of the blog and gives it the appearance of a group of self absorbed extremists.

I hope you will not take offense. I do value many of your contributions and feel great sympathy for all that you have to deal with.

38. Mikey - July 17, 2009

You call upon the Diety? So here goes:

“Religion has to go, and God has to come. Definitely!
Gandhi tells Britain to be non-violent. To let Germany take over England, to let themselves be killed, to be destroyed and not to fight. What he says is one hundred percent right and true, but absolutely impossible and impractical! Hitler and Gandhi are both right in their own way of thinking according to their own conceptions. But both are stark mad to think so! Both are extremes. Extreme violence, when it reaches the zenith, becomes non-violence and vice-versa.
Mussolini is purely a worldly type. Garlic! He tries to snatch here and there. Hitler is a beast, but also a man. Mussolini is simply a bear. Gandhi is impractical, but a very good man. He thinks what is right, tries to act up to it, admits his weaknesses. The world will never be non-violent. It will alway be more than non-violence. And more than non-violence is love.
Non-violence means eternal resistance to the longing to retaliate. Love needs no efforts. It is different from resistance to longing. Love demands self-control and spontaneous happiness for the Beloved. This effort is necessary for love, but it is not dry. Non-violence is not the self-control that is needed in love. It is a continuous resistance to the longing to retaliate. One is effort for transformation, the other is an effort for repression. But Gandhi is much above Hitler and Mussolini. He is a great man. Wherever he feels his weakness, he admits it.”
Meher Prabhu – Vol. 7, Pg. 2580 July 1940

39. itstwinetime - July 17, 2009

37. Vena – July 17, 2009

Ignore the ridiculous blabbermouth.
It is not your job to read drivel. Let the ones who love to read drivel, comment, complain, criticize, condemn, and confuse themselves.

They are made for each other.

40. brucelevy - July 17, 2009

39. itstwinetime

and who the fuck are you?

41. rock that boat - July 18, 2009

37. Vena

I agree Nigel, you take up to much space here
find that quiet place within, and rest there for a bit

Nigel,
Maybe you need to slow down. This blog has become, again, your own personal venue. Try to think about the effect that this onslaught of posting may have on those trying to find simple facts about the Fellowship.

42. James Mclemore - July 18, 2009

39. itstwinetime

You know, if my memory is correct, the last time you came was also at a brief point where there was not a whole lot going on. The play on words if I am reading it right, is that you think it is ‘time to wrap it up’, and end this blog. You had the same negative energy the last time you came. I have no idea what your agenda is or whether it comes from just some inner pain that you are experiencing, or whether you have outside purposes for wanting the blog to end. I have only been here since about page 25, but I have seen a whole bunch of times where there was a lull, or things became sidetracked or negative, and there would be posts saying that maybe we had come to the END. Now here we are on page 76.

43. harryhindsight - July 18, 2009

James,

Itstwinetime = It’s time to tie people up in knots.

If you’ve followed the blog for some months it becomes obvious that the fellowship monitors adopt a policy of sending in the shills to distract and move the attention any time that the blog becomes focused and effective around a given issue. The tactic is simple and unfortunately has worked pretty much much every time.

1, Try to inflame and anger given individuals through personal attacks or simply by posting bigoted or brainwashed/superior sounding opinions.

2, Impersonate an ex student but make your content exaggerated and more negative than genuine ex students. This makes the truthful though admittedly hard to believe stories about R.B. seem less credible.

3, Just let Nigel Harris or Elena take up fifty percent of any page and turn the whole thing into loony tunes without any effort on the fellowship’s part, hence the recent appearance of, itstwinetime just when Nigel was getting up another full head of steam prior to Vena’s intervention. I shouldn’t leave out Greg Goodwin who although banned here, has singlehandedly shut down the GodLike productions thread on the Fellowship and the David Springfield letter. He currently posts infantile insults to people here over there.
With these three working flat out, the Fellowship has absolutely nothing to fear.

4) Pretend you’re a current student in an interval, appeal to blogger sympathy and express the current view of hundreds of current members that yes it really does look fucked up in the fellowship but there’s lots of good huggy stuff too isn’t there, and anyway who am I to judge Robert for abusing hundreds of people?

Clever stuff, or maybe you actually believe they want to engage all you lumps of moon food in a heart to heart?

Harry.

44. itstwinetime - July 18, 2009

What is it now, three years of this crap?
Not getting tired of continual whining even yet?
So the fof is a cult and reb is a fake and worse.
Fine, stipulated.
LET IT GO!

Bobobob and fofofof win doubly.
They took you down for years and vast sums of dollars – uh, because you were too dim and too lame to realize your error and get out… – and now they take you down again for all your continual whining about how you’re the victim, well, woe is you!

You can call the truth negative, but only if you are quite droopy-eyed, eh, mercury boy?

45. nigel harris price - July 18, 2009

So post #44 was one from the Gods, eh?

Here is one from the other God who is working now with HUMANITY – God Himself. You think cautionary words from Vena and harryhindsight were meant to shut me up. No, they were about slowing me down and getting my mania (the God State) under control. On the days of those posts from me, I was wearing blue – “It’s a Clear Blue, Natural 45” (recent popular song). Thing is, you little shit, itstwinetime…..

“And take heed how you impawn our person,
How you awake our sleeping sword of war;
For never did such two monarchies contend,
Without much fall of blood…..” (Henry V by William Shakespeare)

I will let Ruskin, the Evangelist, explain the position of ex-members on this blog…..

Frondes Agrestes 1.2

“The temper by which right taste is formed is characteristically patient. It dwells upon what is submitted to it. It does not trample upon it, – lest it should be pearls, even though it looks like husks. It is good ground, penetrable, retentive; it does not send up thorns of unkind thoughts, to choke the weak seed; it is hungry and thirsty too, and drinks all the dew that falls on it. It is an honest and good heart, that shows not too ready springing before the sun be up, but fails not afterwards; it is distrustful of itself, so as to be ready to try all things; and yet so trustful of itself, that it will neither quit what it has tried, nor take anything without trying. And the pleasure which it has in things that it finds true and good, is so great, that it cannot possibly be led aside by any tricks of fashion, or diseases of vanity; it cannot be cramped in its conclusions by partialities and hypocrisies; its visions and its delights are too penetrating, – too living, – for any whitewashed object or shallow fountain long to endure or supply. It clasps all that it loves so hard that it crushes it if it be hollow.”

Read my former page #76 posts and think for yourself…..Nigel

46. elena - July 18, 2009

Hi Nigel, friends and enemies! it’s a pleasure to find you still here!

Just got back from the trip, checked the blog and saw the generous length of your contributions. Again we have Vena saying for the sixty seventh time that she doesn’t like it like that but this time at least with a much kinder tone. The boat that rocks with it’s rare contributions also protesting and the new louder voice, Mr. Hindsight, the self appointed judge with a long finger probably hoping he’ll get some points and a few to back him up and boost his ego!! No wonder we spent so much time in the Phalluship of Fiends!

I hardly read your posts Nigel not because I don’t find something of interest in every one of them but because no matter how interesting it is to look at what interests you, I’ve come to sense that you, like most of us, go around in circles and have gotten stuck and the repetition gets vicious. Doesn’t Vena go around the same circles? Don’t you Vena come and write only those posts saying it’s too personal, I’d like it different? Isn’t it at least something that you’ve managed to finally say it kindly? Doesn’t Jomo P. come with his wonderful work on the facts that count and mostly limits himself to those because when he moves out of it and becomes more personal something else is revealed that is not necessarily less judgemental? No matter who you look at here you can see a pretty clear line of how each one of us repeat our selves and relate to the “public” with what we want to show and not show. The imaginary picture we wish to project is as loud as the real picture and in both, the light and the dark side of the moon reveal themselves. We’re just people! Anything wrong with that?

If we wait a little for Mr. Hindsight’s posts, you too will reveal the extent of your darkness like I and anyone who’s given enough has done. The question is, do we continue to get stuck in applauding as soon as you show your dark side and fall on you like vultures and feed with delight on this darkness as you put others down convinced that that will raise you above them or do we simply verify that we are about to fall in the same mass behaviour in which many feed on dead meat? For what is finger pointing and judgement but dead, smelly meat that the judges delight on? And most often it isn’t that they give shit about what they are pointing at, what they are desperately trying to achieve is the disappearance of the subject that has hurt them in some area or threatens their imaginary picture of the world. There are whole cosmoses of difference between Greg and Nigel and Nigel, Greg and myself but Mr. Hindsight, you seem to think that you can toss us on the same sieve and come out with the same shit which only reveals the limitations of your magnifying glass.

It looks like Mr. Hindsight’s sight is really hind and is willing to acknowledge only the dark side of mine, yours Nigel and Greg’s darkness, as if he didn’t have one like any Harry! One of the most interesting aspects of the blog is the accuracy of the self appointed names.

I wonder what it is that really bothers Vena and Harry about your posts Nigel. It’s true that I read less of them as time presses other realities that I’m beginning to enjoy but I would much rather live with the generosity of your posts than with the consistent rejection of Vena’s or Harry’s or the many here who think they are above anybody else but give little more than judgement. Perhaps what really threatens these people is that they’ve never lost enough track of themselves to give without restrictions and think that holding on to the leash of rationality is worth defending. What really threatens them is the freedom with which you’ve lost it! The fact that they know that they don’t know what that freedom feels like and relish on putting down the darks aspects of it so that they can justify their own reigns on themselves. It isn’t that I don’t thoroughly agree with Vena’s statement, for I do, but when the boat that no longer rocks or Harry, picks it up to push you or Greg or me further down I am not willing to buy it and get hooked on the challenge!

We’ve gone through this many times Harry and you’re probably an incarnation of some other Harry here, maybe even my favorite one Mr. ….Oh dear, I’ve forgotten his long name but real dialogue is not about putting people down but holding people up. Of course, you probably give a fuck about real dialogue! Throwing stones at people is so much easier!

As I get older, the great thing about realizing that every one of us is the beast in the Fairy Tale is that we are also the beauty. It took all of one’s youth to meet the beast and one can’t say one’s matured until one’s made peace with it. Then one can look at others with tolerance. Isn’t tolerance the acknowledgement of the toughness of each one’s struggle? The respect that we owe to each other’s difficulties? The realization that the wind that blew on us twisted us much more than we would have wanted and still we are not going to slay each other for bending painfully towards the ground? What makes you think that what Greg, Nigel and I give in quantity is not a reflection of what you and others give in poverty? What makes you think that hiding your suffering is in any way better than exposing it like a wild whore? Do you truly think we continue to live in a time in which silence and composure and restriction and control, which is what the cults of every clan of society impose, is the appropriate answer to the situation? What makes you think that anyone who pretends to hold them selves “sane” in the insanity of the world we are living in has a better clue of what is going on? That sanity is restriction? That being “appropriate” is being unidirectional?

So many of you here think you are “sane” and we are “insane”, because you can’t walk the shore of your being any further than the red and the green lights that tell you when to stop or move forward but you are just fearfully sitting in the shade while we fly from post to post knowing the green and the red light exists only in your imagination, that same imagination that put us in a brothel and condemned us to dutifully serve a Narcissistic Sociopath for decades. What else did we do but carefully follow the red and green lights that so many of you here still stand on? What in the Phalluship is anything but absolute control?

What I hope you come to explore in your generosity Nigel is the fact that you avoid shit as if you had to run from the toilet and smelly as toilets might be, it’s better to visit them as often as necessary! What antidepressants seem to accomplish is the inability to perceive, conceive and deal with shit and shit is the compost of new flowers. It is a great thing to be able to deal with it with both friends and enemies and specially within one’s self.

Here is my 2% of the 50% I intend to fill of this page hopefully with my friend Nigel and the rest of you who dare give enough of your selves. This is the Public Square. If you want restrictions on people’s being, go back to your clubs or ban us because banning is the only way you know how to deal with shit, banning which is another way of killing, killing which is another way of silencing. Sometimes you are so poor it is great fun to turn you upside down and backwards so that you get out of your formatoriness for even a second. I am grateful for every time you turn me upside down and backwards. Being pruned is awfully healthy!

“GIVE”, give of your selves, give all the beauty within your selves if you can ever find it and all the shit if that’s all you’ve got. Stop putting conditions to participation. Give what you expect and let others give what they can. Find solutions instead of making deeper problems. The Fellowship is a poor excuse to be here. If the Fellowship still mattered, we’d still be in it. Stop looking for justifications to communicate. Communicating with each other is the greatest and most beautiful thing we’ll ever accomplish and doesn’t need to be justified! It’s an expression of love.

47. nigel harris price - July 18, 2009

46 elena

You, as always, are ‘brill’, as I like to say! I think your forages into your country’s ‘common people’ (not meant to be insulting to them, for they are all truly individuals, as I am sure you have come to find) are helping with the balance of the disorder we both share. I have so many TRUE friends, having left the FOF just over 20 years ago. I got on the blog-site to post this, so include the url. It is on today’s main page, so please, all, read it today…..Nigel.

“The Age of Reason”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

48. elena - July 18, 2009

Nigel Thanks,

Having said all that please acknowledge that it is also true that we do determine the rhythm of participation with the intensity of our posts and it would be great if others are allowed enough time and space to do so without our persistent intervention.

Still, I would like to know what is your opinion on this statement:
What antidepressants seem to accomplish is the inability to perceive, conceive and deal with shit and shit is the compost of new flowers. It is a great thing to be able to deal with it with both friends and enemies and specially within one’s self.

The only difference between you and I is that you’ve allowed the Cult System to convince you that there is something wrong with you. Realizing that I am or have been extremely selfish and vain and have done little for others, that the love I’ve given in my youth is far from love, that the dark side of my self is pitch black wasn’t and isn’t any fun but it’s so goddam human and not nearly as black as people like to believe about them selves or others. The fear of not dealing with the darkness in and outside one’s self is what’s got people in such a place of vulnerability that we would rather give our selves up to a guru, a dictator or a doctor, take antidepressants, dictate the order of the world or control the extension of the spirit. In every case we are giving up the responsibility of making decisions from our own self. To be able to trust one’s judgement and to be able to respond for one’s darkness when it slips out of one’s will is as necessary a process of becoming as learning to walk.

When you think about your self as a child Nigel, is there, was there great darkness? When I think of my self as a child, and I often do it as an exercise to remember my self, what I saw and understood, what I knew to be true is of infinite beauty. Not one of my huge mistakes can mar that beauty for it is both within and without me. It does not depend on me to continue to exist, it simply allows me to exist within it when ever I have the will. We are flowers of the Spirit and as such it is fine to live and die.
Life is the moments of beauty that we steal from our own darkness. Darkness is the necessary land on which we can find the immensity of our own being. Don’t be afraid of the dark Nigel, it is only a temporary night while the Sun comes around! That is “I”, “you”, “us”!

49. nigel harris price - July 18, 2009

48 elena

“Flores de mi curazon”…..wow, that is a Big One! It will take me a few hours to ‘compose my thoughts’ to answer your post, but here are some lines from the ‘Amore’ album, by Andrea Bocelli…..

“Once in every life, there comes a time,
We walk out all alone, and into the night;
The moment won’t last, but then,
We remember it again,
When we close our eyes.

Like stars across the sky,
We were born to shine;
All of us here, because we believe.”

Talk to you soon (hope whalerider is listening)…..Nigel.

50. Vonlenska - July 18, 2009

In Europe on a metro someone had a boom-box on loud. A passenger asked them to turn off/down. They didn’t want. He pushed the emergency button at next station to have an official come and get the guy to turn off the music. The metro stopped for over 20 minutes while they went through the different security list and the guard, annoyed passenger and boom-box boy argued.
There were about 400 people in the full train (8 compartments of 50+/-). Probably 6 more trains were delayed over this time. That’s 2,400 people x 20 minutes = 800 hours or over one month of human life.
The annoyed person was within his rights. His self-righteous crusade had big cost to others, but he was within his rights.
I think Elena and Nigel are like this. They assert their rights to say what they feel they have to say it. Resist being ‘shut up’ and use this blog as exhibitionist platform for personal issues – Not being considerate to others.
I wish you both happiness, but also wish you would find another outlet so we don’t have so much of you both pouring through here.

51. nigel harris price - July 18, 2009

“Strong in the Force are you.” (‘Yoda’ from the film ‘Star Wars’)…..

This may seem like a silly introduction to an answer to post #48, in which you seemed to engage in a description of how you are ‘going back and confronting your daemons’ (Vedantic texts), Elena…..and you are going back into your past and seeing all your mistakes. From my point of view, I have thoughts of of the past, but they seem to be equally, if not more, of happy times, as well of ‘depressed periods’. I have a funny feeling, some of what you/I experienced was due to our type – you being Mercurial, in the main, and I being mainly Solar/Jovial (having progressed from Saturnine). Do you not think GH’s ‘outlook’ on the Fellowship is due to the positivity of his type (and feature)? I am not sure if depression and, hence, the need for anti-depressants (which have never worked for me in my low times, since I have been sectioned every time for hypo-mania – ‘liable to be a danger to oneself or others’ – ) is not different from having actually experienced ‘dark times’ and ‘mistakes’. Can we dialogue on this one, since I do not want Vena or harryhindsight or others accusing us of ‘hog-blog’…..Nigel.

52. elena - July 18, 2009

Vonlenska, I’ll pay attention to what you’re saying when you pay attention to what is being said and not fall into the same pattern of dismissing things with the same cheapness others have.

But I’m glad you at least got the part that establishes that the man was wonderfully right in stopping over a month of human life for a lifetime of human rights.

53. nigel harris price - July 18, 2009

50 Volenska

Do you actually read our posts, or are you just annoyed at the quantity?

“If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of Hell” (the purging fire, to paraphrase the saying)…..Nigel.

54. elena - July 18, 2009

And Vonlenska, if you look a little closer you’ll realize that there is nothing personal between me and Nigel or you and us. It is in fact all perfectly public.

No one is stopping you from saying what you wish to say but all you wish to say is find problems in others. Can’t you find your own inspiration? Can you only wind yourself up if you’re chasing after others?

55. fofblogmoderator - July 18, 2009

“Blog-hog”- I like it!!

Hey everybody, here’s my two cents. I usually skip through Nigel’s comments (no offense, I’m just a busy guy) and if people here really think that his comments are going to dissuade “newcomers” from hearing the main message of this blog; that the Fellowship Of Friends is not a school of awakening, but a closed-community cult, then I tend to disagree.

That being said, if you notice at the top of the page I did inject new grounds for receiving a “warning” a few pages back. It simply says those taking up too much space (a subjective measurement) will receive a warning.

Nigel, since a few people have voiced their opinion that you are starting to go blog-hog, can you please consolidate your ideas and try to contain them to, let’s say 3 post per day?

56. elena - July 18, 2009

Nigel 51,

Thanks for a first attempt to responding, don’t worry about Vonlenska, Vena or Harry, it’s good to talk. What we are talking about is not only about us and how we deal with it will reflect on others.

The pattern has often been to resort to types and other aspects when dealing with the dark side of yourself or others. Yes, we each have our particular story but take a look at it again if you would please do so:
What antidepressants seem to accomplish is the inability to perceive, conceive and deal with shit and shit is the compost of new flowers. It is a great thing to be able to deal with it with both friends and enemies and specially within one’s self.

The only difference between you and I is that you’ve allowed the Cult System to convince you that there is something wrong with you.

By Cult System I mean the status quo of today’s medicine. You allowed them to diagnose you and treat you. You are responsible for your self. No one is doing this to you without your permission.

You are in exactly the same position in relation to medicine and the drugs you take that we were in relation to Robert and disabling our selves from taking responsibility for our lives. What makes you think that it is in any way more justifiable? What allowed you or us to give up the trust in our own RULING FACULTY? And the difficulty as far as I can tell with you, dearest friend is that you’re actually using it and enjoying it to a great extent. Any idea why?

Would you think it O.K. if I don’t answer you until tomorrow? See if Vonlenska can inspire himself to write everything we don’t allow him!? Do you see how ridiculous your position is Vonlenska?

57. itstwinetime - July 18, 2009

Elena:
Do you see how ridiculous your position is?

Once, twice, three times a burned lady
and now you can’t shut up about it.

Saying the same thing over and over and over, while believing things might be different, is one of many definitions of “insanity”.

If you really want things to change for you (you can not and are not helping anybody else you know), then get beyond yourself. Step into the future you, that is beyond the otherwise eternal “you of today” you continue waking up with every morning. Sometimes forgetting one’s “self” is not a bad idea at all, when you learn HOW to do it… once and for all.

58. elena - July 18, 2009

Oh dear, just saw the fofblogmoderator’s post. Just as you were beginning to look at it! Well, three posts a day ought to be enough to keep the thread without getting too pressured by it. It might help us to go steady just so that you know that there’s no hurry!

59. fofblogmoderator - July 18, 2009

My new favorite video.

Scroll down and stop the Mp3 player so that when you start the video you don’t get two songs at once.

http://www.myspace.com/bleutopia

60. elena - July 18, 2009

It’s whine Time,

Another post that doesn’t address the issues. Bravo, you get more intelligent by post! Thank you for your opinion but after 75 pages of stupidity like yours you must eventually realize it doesn’t even sprinkle me!

I’m back love! It’s so good to be here!

61. elena - July 18, 2009

It’s whine time: “you can not and are not helping anybody else you know”

Are you terrified by the fact I might actually be helping someone? That talking with each other might be successfully joyful? That it will show how sickly depressing the automatons of the Phalluship are?

How terrified are you that you give nothing but poverty in each of your posts? Darkness, negativity, unsubstantial criticism? You are the darkness on which I stand, the more you give of it the more I’ll last.

62. itstwinetime - July 18, 2009

Elena,
“how sickly depressing the automatons of the Phalluship are”

You are negativity, all dressed up, and only this place to go.
Keep on keepin’ on tho, there are some here who enjoy being diddled by you, and you and they know who they are, riiiiiight?

63. nigel harris price - July 18, 2009

Ooooooooooooohhh! Here we go – ‘hairy time’ again. Mmmmmmmhh – see you tomorrow for 3 of the best I can muster (and, as a parting shot, Elena, lady, you got a lot wrong about what is actually happening in my life – by the way, I take downers, not anti-depressants…..)…..Nigel.

64. Jomo Piñata - July 19, 2009

It bothers itstwinetime that discussions continue. He urges the discussants to “LET IT GO.” He also characterizes the discussion as “continual whining about how you’re the victim.” (76/44)

I think this shows his attitude towards his own experiences. He is disinclined to examine his own experiences deeply. Perhaps this is because he is afraid of experiences he hasn’t fully processed yet. Perhaps he is a person running away from himself.

2. I think this shows itstwinetime’s attitude towards people who examine their own experiences so that they might process those experiences more deeply. Airing here what they discover inside themselves is, in his eyes, “continual whining about how you’re the victim.”

I don’t think that’s a fair characterization of discussants’ accounts. I do think it reflects a fixed expectation about what discussants are doing–probably one common in the fellowship–but I don’t think it reflects what they’re *actually* doing.

So I think itstwinetime is not someone who actually *reads* this blog. Which means (to me anyway), he’s not really talking to anyone in particular, but just some blurry composite he has invented based upon his expectations of who posts here.

65. WhaleRider - July 19, 2009

This is what would happen if a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder like Burton actually became conscious…

66. ton - July 19, 2009

sally thanks for this pearl:

“Use of the ’system’ of ideas we studied for so long is an enticing trap and trip to nowhere. If you really want to gain your personal power and self respect back you may want to consider leaving the area for a while just to get yourself grounded in your own space again. This ‘psychological baggage’ does not go away instantly or easily.”

and 43 harry,
thanks for your post…. to quote a bit here if i may:

“3, Just let Nigel Harris or Elena take up fifty percent of any page and turn the whole thing into loony tunes without any effort on the fellowship’s part, hence the recent appearance of, itstwinetime just when Nigel was getting up another full head of steam prior to Vena’s intervention. I shouldn’t leave out Greg Goodwin who although banned here, has singlehandedly shut down the GodLike productions thread on the Fellowship and the David Springfield letter. He currently posts infantile insults to people here over there.
With these three working flat out, the Fellowship has absolutely nothing to fear.”

this may be somewhat related… or not;
when i read here…. ‘work’ jargon often raises red flags for me, this includes questions about ‘brain-washing,’ especially if it comes off sounding like someone is quoting ‘scripture’ and expressing deeply-embedded, dogmatic and doctrinaire usages of the memes implanted, inculcated, fostered and otherwise supported through the habit of thinking in terms of so-called ‘work’ lingo. a good example of this is the ‘mentality’ reflected in the posts previously shat out on this site by the individual you mentioned above. prior pages here as well as other websites are rife with examples of his derrangement which does not bear repeating. suffice it to say that although he lost the ability to post on here at this site, he (yet) continues to monopolize other venues with inane commentary… among other things this behavior raises the question of ‘motive’ if such a thing exists… or is it simply as it appears to be in this case, a habit of mind resulting from exposure to and infection by fof/4th way meme programming ?

and more generally, beyond the question of motive, some postings do indeed raise questions about the connection of intention — if there is one — and actual effect…(?)

67. ton - July 19, 2009

ps nigel

were i a mason
instead of a ‘fofian’
i might be ‘seeing’
or sensitized….
to 33’s
not 44’s.

elena
have you heard this…. ?

68. ton - July 19, 2009

dxp,
re: some impressions from the previous page… thanks for taking the time to express your point of view> and here’s another ‘point of view:’

imo dividing experience into categories of ‘spiritual’ vs ‘nonspiritual’ is just another ‘obstacle’ as you put it. this way of thinking blocks possible ‘realization’ and a DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF EVERYTHING AS GOD… any ‘stuff’ you might happen to think of as the ‘antithesis’ of ‘spiritual’ is included as part of the package. thinking in terms of ‘SPIRITUAL PRACTICES OR PURSUITS’ as DXP put it previously, is a ‘mental construct’ — a ‘meme’ which perpetuates the illusion that the world is divided into ‘the spiritual’ vs. whatever you might think of as ‘nonspiritual’ — division into ‘this’ and ‘that’ is part of the mechanism which perpetuates illusion. if you’re bored with ‘ordinary’ air-breathing existence, join a cult,live as a ‘renunciate,’ dedicate your life to a guru or ‘god.’ live as a fakir, monk, yogi, etc…. when ‘spiritual practices’ become more important than life — what does that say about you?

imo it’s just another form and variety of narcissistic involvement.
think about it.

“The practice of bhakti emphasises devotion above ritual. Bhakti is commonly represented in terms of human relationships, most importantly beloved-lover, friend-friend, parent-child, and master-servant.[7] It may refer to devotion to a spiritual teacher (Guru) as guru-bhakti,[8][9] or to a personal form of God,[10]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga

‘you live and you learn’
SURE LEE

69. ton - July 19, 2009

in search of beauty….
0000011111

‘an ocean refuses no river…’

wood chopping water carrier

70. Yesri Baba - July 19, 2009

71. James Mclemore - July 19, 2009

“No borders
No fences
Unbound”

Thank you Yesri – That is a beautiful video.

72. James Mclemore - July 19, 2009

“imo it’s just another form and variety of narcissistic involvement.
think about it.”

Thanks ton –
Yes, it seems like the whole entire idea of ‘the spiritual search’ has to become suspect and looked into, even, and perhaps most importantly, when it seems to involve the very ideas and seeming paths that brought us to wherever it is we happen to find ourselves. Something may have been set in motion and much may have been learned along the way, but the ‘search’ itself, and that division into ‘spiritual and non-spiritual’ is a narcissistic endeavor that seems to produce its own varieties of ‘specialness’, and sustains the very separation that one might think they are trying somehow to heal.

73. Panoritsa - July 19, 2009

I’ve been spending my days at the beach!!! getting more and more relaxed, enjoying life and allowing life to enjoy me (part of this meaning my two parents enjoying having their daughter back and sane!)…

I would say write as much as you can. One does not have to read anything here. One does not have to write anything here.

The Fellowship was and will remain one’s unanswered desires and longings. If one does not really take the step to walk out of the dream and start living one’s desires and longings,… well…too bad for them!

A crippled and sick leader will not breath life into you… Unfortunately, you will have to grow up and do it yourself…
He will take away from you…

But if you want to continue…go on…

I am going back to my interesting book…just to avoid the hot sun for a few hours and then off to the beach again…Life is sweet…

Nice to have you all here!

74. elena - July 19, 2009

Hi Ton,

Thanks for that video. It’s so confusing I couldn’t really understand what the prediction was even though I looked at it twice. I’ll try again though.

These are beautiful people. If you’re interested look for The Heart of the World by the BBC. It’s a documentary they planned for a long time then contacted the BBC to give their message to the world. Basically it said: Look after the Earth, the exploitation you are doing is extremely harmful, it’s suffering and so will we!

Great Day!

75. WhaleRider - July 19, 2009

IMO, this blog is neither a “public square” free speech platform without any rules or a transient “metro train” with a specific destination, but a little of both.

Let us be self-regulating and listen to each other. That will limit the unintended consequences.

To a person with narcissistic personality traits feedback will always seem like a personal attack to bring them “down”, and they will counterattack disproportionately to silence the “other”.

76. sallymcnally - July 19, 2009

Thanks Ton and Yesri for some inspiration this morning. A great equilizer to some prior darkness.

77. Ill Never Tell - July 19, 2009

65. WhaleRider:

‘Being John Malkovich’ video!

At the frame at 0:44, where the tunnel vision sees a fine dining experience set table, the head of a penis should emerge into view and begin to enter the tunnel, head on. The mouth of the penis should be singing, in tenor or soprano voice, the name of the entity (you know who) that is viewing the scene, over and over again. This is what the mind’s eye is seeing of you know who, all the while they are grabbing, under the table, that particular anatomical part, the penis, of the person(s) sitting to the left and/or right of the subject entity; while, simultaneously, thinking: I can’t wait for this dinner to get over so that I can get some real feeding done on some Hydrogen 12.

78. Ill Never Tell - July 19, 2009

Oh!, I forgot to add the more emotional part:
And everyone else at the table are smiling, not eating but silently listening and watching, thinking: Isn’t that so sweet. They are in love and higher hydrogens are circulating.

79. WhaleRider - July 19, 2009

I’ll Never Tell:
You’re funny and so right. If we were to crawl head first through a “dark wet hole” into the life of a gay sexual predator with Narcissist Personality Disorder in love with his own penis, we’d see the world as he does, teeming with bald talking penis heads all calling his name, including women…who are bait for more penises. And guess what’s on the menu!

The question is…is that the kind of love that is eternal?

“Being John Malkovich” is a great film; I recommend it. It’s the story of depressed, co-dependent people unsatisfied with their own dark lives who discover a brief portal into the grandiose life of someone “special and famous”…a narcissist.

The main characters figure out a way to charge admission to other sad people, and they make lots of money! This is a perfect metaphor for a cult.

80. elena - July 20, 2009

75. WhaleRider – July 19, 2009
IMO, this blog is neither a “public square” free speech platform without any rules or a transient “metro train” with a specific destination, but a little of both.

Interesting that the idea that a public square is a free speech platform without any rules predominates in the minds of today. It’s in the Public Square and all public space where people could be most “civilized” if we understood the realm in which we were moving both within and without. It’s where powerful political revolutions take place, where great leaders speak and where both heroes and criminals die but most of the time it’s where people hang out with each other. There’s much more negativity within people’s homes than Public Squares because something in us still recognizes vaguely that there are limits to our selfishness and we can’t treat everyone like we treat our families in the private cults of our homes.

The fact that in our time the Public Square as a reference of that which is common to all, including common sense, equality, dignity in the right to walk and speak freely within the society has been lost to the conditioning of a public space that directs people to the shopping mall where leisure is replaced by addiction to possession, free time replaced by consumerism, communion and communication replaced by a generalized attitude of indifference and rejection towards the “other” unknown “idiots in my way”.

A sick public life is both the cause and effect of a sick family life and a sick family life is both the cause and effect of the unhealthy individual. The un-healthiness of family life reflects in the child’s instinctive center; the un-healthiness of community life reflects in the youth’s emotional center, the un-healthiness of human principles reflects in the spiritual dis-integrity of the individual, in the adult’s intellectual center where it turns against both itself and others and justifies crime. This needs to be explored and verified further, it’s an intuitive understanding.

Balance in our times depends on the equilibrium between these different spheres of life. Each realm feeds specific aspects of man’s inner being. Without human standards, social life is corrupted. Without a social frame, the I is never at home, without a firm I, the family is never stable.

In our time, the conquest of one’s self runs parallel to the establishment of human principles in society not from external imposition by the respective clan but by the maturity of each individual’s inner will. To act with decency wherever one goes does not allow for indecency to proliferate anywhere.

Each nation has conquered significant extensions of “civility” and in mixing together we learn from each of our nation’s conquests. It is a beautiful thing that an English man can stand up and stop the train and a month of people’s lives to help us all remember that a man’s integrity cannot be ripped off by any abuser and it is equally horrifying that a sick narcissistic sociopath can walk freely raping and exploiting people without anyone stopping him because the society has lost the sense of its integrity in the innumerable abuses it has legalized.

This is for me only the beginning of attempting to understand the harmony and disharmony in the connections between our inner centres and our external lives. It is an open venue of exploration in great need of deep research and verification. Work on balancing one’s self within, helps one understand the external world. A more balanced world will give healthier human beings. A more balanced world requires the re-integration of all aspects of practical social life. Re-connectedness of every activity in individual’s consciousness. Re-alignment of all aspects of life to human principles. The recovery of Work as a dignified activity for the well being of mankind and not just the “bloody job” people do so that they don’t starve. The recovery of dignity of every man within every society.

It is a beautiful thing to know that one loves to be amongst people without relinquishing a centimetre of one’s aloneness. It is in the integrity of one’s aloneness that other’s presence is experienced with dignity.

The Spirit grows lighter in the joy of our communication. It expands with the love of our presence into gratitude.

81. dragon - July 20, 2009

For three weeks I am spending my time at the ocean but nevertheless the Blog is worth to have break and to see how you are all doing.

Wish you all well and go on with the discussion it is something special….

82. Mikey - July 20, 2009

The search for an intelligent traffic signal goes on….

83. DXP - July 20, 2009

68 72, Ton. Of course you are ultimately right – or at least you sound that way. But, in a live and let live spirit, some people DO want a spiritual discipline or pursuit – some kind of structure to address it in. Even thinking in some learned language (English here) is a spiritual structure. And why be all on the same page? Different strokes for different folks. Also, many people conduct spiritual searches in sensitive parts of their lives which would not work for them older or younger or whatever. I don’t think that when people have a spiritual category in their lives it is necessarily a matter to judge.

And you seem to be right that ultimately all is one, but practical life is divided into different areas. Even astrology categorizes spiritual pursuit (along with other things). And yes, it is ego involvement. But then again healthy ego structures are a great spiritual goal as a an expression of the spiritual existence of life on this planet as humans. Unhealthy egos seem to be too strong or too weak. So ego involvement is NOT automatically the same thing as narcissistic involvement.

My exception to all this is fundamentalism. All religions and spiritual practices seem to have a fundamentalist branch. The fof has degraded itself into that even leaving the 4th way behind for poo. Fundamentalism is a blind loyalty to authority, which is unquestioned. Questioning authority is a terrible sin in a fundamentalist group. This is a negative transformation of a spiritual pursuit.

To itstwinetime: you wrote: “They took you down for years and vast sums of dollars – uh, because you were too dim and too lame to realize your error and get out… – and now they take you down again for all your continual whining about how you’re the victim, well, woe is you!”

That is harsh, but strangely you have a point. When leaving the fof then a person usually has to face their culpability in the relationship. Sometimes it is just too difficult to see the personal gratification (or whatever) one got out of it and reduce it all to seduction (as if the seductee did not get Something) and blame and victimization. It can’t be reduced to that. We joined voluntarily and stayed for our durations for our own reasons. Blame and victimization are extremes, and YES there is much responsibility (=blame??) on Robert…… MOST of the blame is on RB. Much of it is on his minions, of which we participated to some degree. And some of the responsibility for our tenure is in us.

My question for current fofers is – do you prefer to live with the buffers you have now and are comfortable with? If you leave would you have to painfully retract or at least rearrange those buffers?, would it be worth it, or personally possible? Would there be any rewards for doing such a painful thing?

84. ton - July 20, 2009

dxp thanks for your input…. you brought up this notion ‘to judge’ and a little red flag popped up regarding that part of the fof program… you know, how the ‘student’ is steered away from so-called ‘judgment’. i agree generally with what you wrote about the ego… but here are a few thoughts about something that contributes to an unhealthy state of ego: in the fof you were ‘taught’ not to ‘judge,’ that it was a ‘bad’ thing to do, a ‘no no’ an impediment to your ‘personal evolution.’ one way of seeing this piece of the ‘program’ is that it’s another means of eroding and stripping away the ability for rational / ‘critical’ thinking…. consider the implications of getting the sheep… er, i mean ‘student’ to give up their individual judgment, especially in the dubious and questionable context of the fof. personally i no longer think of ‘judgment’ as a ‘bad thing’ — what i do think about it now is that it’s important to exercise that faculty in conjunction with something resembling ’empathy’ — that is, putting oneself ‘in the shoes of another.’ this doesn’t necessarily imply that you come away in agreement or with a sympathetic rather than antipathetic attitude… but there is at least the possibility for a deeper understanding of the situation.

as for this notion of ‘spiritual practices,’ i get the impression that you defend the ‘authenticity’ of a ‘4th way’ as against the bastardized fraud perpetrated by the fof? i heard something interesting recently… you wake up in the middle of the night, go to the fridge to have a look around… you’re not really hungry, nevertheless there is this underlying sense of a void which needs filling… the question is, what are you looking for ? you happen to find a slice of cheesecake that’s been hiding in the back behind the milk jug… the question is, is it happiness that you’re looking for by the fridge light? is that what the cheesecake represents? as for ‘enlightenment’ and the void you feel, the sense that something in life is missing and that it can be filled through rituals and ‘spiritual practices’ — i suppose this can be a source of comfort and may even represent something beyond the familiar immediacy of a ritual action… as a notion the practice might represent a means of reaching a ‘transcendental’ unrealized potential. some rituals, ‘spiritual practices,’ ‘magical operations,’ etc, seem to hold the key to a promise of realizing ‘enlightenment’ or ‘fulfillment’ or whatever you might choose to call your slice of ‘spiritual’ cheesecake… ‘to each their own.’ something to consider: true renunciation implies renouncing renunciation, which further implies the embracing of everything.

85. DXP - July 20, 2009

Ton, thanks for the discussion. tho…. I’m not sure of all of your points. I do remember when in the fof “judgment” was discouraged. I think that meant one of the meanings of to judge, and that is “to DISCERN”. Judgment also often has a meaning of to summarily dismiss or a knee jerk harsh final opinion. So in the fof we were not to dismiss disgusting and even criminal behaviors OR even discern them.

You said: “personally i no longer think of ‘judgment’ as a ‘bad thing’ — what i do think about it now is that it’s important to exercise that faculty in conjunction with something resembling ‘empathy’” — I agree that a powerful combination of critical thinking (judgment/discerning), intuition, consciousness and conscience (which includes empathy) works best for people.

You wrote: “as for this notion of ’spiritual practices,’ i get the impression that you defend the ‘authenticity’ of a ‘4th way’ as against the bastardized fraud perpetrated by the fof?” — I suppose so, and think there is a kernel in the 4th way. I, personally, think it is outdated as a system (besides the fof), but the core issues of the 4th way (as I understand them) are very similar to certain forms of Buddhism and other religions so, yes, there is value to all these forms. They are also all incredibly lacking. So they may be ‘authentic’ enough but, for me, that is just not enough. Maybe that’s what you meant about all the cheesecake stuff?? I really did not follow that, but it DID make me hungry!

As to the fof being 4th way – no it has not been remotely 4th way for a very very very long time – if ever, really. Fundamentalist blind loyalty to one man is NOT 4th way and it IS what Robert has crafted the fof into.

86. nigel harris price - July 20, 2009

Dear Elena

.”Before you make the decision to work towards making the connection with higher centres…..” (Ouspensky)

“God be in my head and in my understanding…..” (Anglican Supplication)

“When the soul is winged up…..” (Jacob Boehme)

These introductory quotes are somewhat on the way towards my answer to your posts on ‘reviewing one’s darkness’ (I certainly do not wish to have you wallow in it for yourself or glorify it – there are so many other aspects of one’s life ‘in memoriam’ to oneself and one’s past). For me, it depends on my low or high states, whether I ‘look back in anger’, or even shame and desperation or whether I learn from the ‘boldness of my past’ – personal and of heritage – and go forward with the idea of ‘working with conscienable thought impelling to right action’. I believe it was Johann Goethe who said “There are some things in life it is right to hate”, but I do not think it is worthwhile filling one’s whole outlook with that hate. I remember, when I am in ‘high’ states, even the ugliest of faces have character and hold their humanity. There is a quote in the Bible, which goes, “God is not partial”. This has been taken to mean that, if you ‘stuff’ all of humanity into your cult or sect, God would have nothing to judge. The trouble is that those cults or sects are themselves the most judgemental of what is naturally human – and I believe it is in being natural, not forcing oneself upon others, nor one’s beliefs either, that there is a chance of personal and, infectiously, others’ happiness…..Nigel.

87. ton - July 20, 2009

dxp you wrote, among other things:

“I… think there is a kernel in the 4th way….”

the ‘kernel’ is (was) you.

“… Buddhism and other religions…. there is value to all these forms…”

ya, if you value ‘these forms’ then to you, ‘there is value.’

“…They are also all incredibly lacking….”

sounds like you don’t value them very much.

“….about all the cheesecake stuff?? I really did not follow that, but it DID make me hungry!”

so eat…. but beware the ’empty calories.’

marie antoinette

88. in2it - July 21, 2009

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/gurusandprisoners.asp

“Once you are in them (cults), they provide a total reality with no escape clause.”
Ram Dass
========

“The hypocrisy of cult friendships, typically, is that while they pose as unconditional love, they depend powerfully on loyalty to the cult.”

========

The following are some additional longer excerpts from “Stripping the Gurus: Sex, Violence, Abuse and Enlightenment” by Geoffrey D. Falk

“…The fear of long-term punishment will produce exactly the same rigid reactions, and inability to walk away from toxic situations, in the East as in the West. The universal nature of known psychological structures and dynamics throughout the human species guarantees this.

“When cult leaders tell the public, “Members are free to leave any time they want; the door is open,” they give the impression that members have free will and are simply choosing to stay. Actually, members may not have a real choice, because they have been indoctrinated to have a phobia of the outside world. Induced phobias eliminate the psychological possibility of a person choosing to leave the group merely because he is unhappy or wants to do something else (Hassan, 1990).
That is, individuals in so-called cults who have been taught that bad things will happen to them should they leave will be no more “free” to exit those environments than someone who is petrified of the water would be “free” to go swimming.

“Father [i.e., Jim Jones] kept my treasonous thoughts in check by warning us that leaving the church would bring bad karma. He reminded us in his sermons that those who had chosen to join were here because we were on the verge of crossing over to the next plane. Without his help, we would not make it. Those who left or betrayed the Cause in any way would be reincarnated as the lowest life form on Earth and it would take us another hundred thousand years to get to this point again (Layton, 1998).”

=======

“… Disciples more often than not “fall in love” with guru-figures who, in the long run, do nothing but make their lives miserable. The one-sided attempts to untangle the ingrown emotional codependencies as the relationship crashes, then, place even greater constraints on the doubting disciple than for any secular, romantic relationship. Thus, it is in no way easy there to “just leave.” Indeed, such abandonment would again be equated not merely with “falling out of love”—a plight for which there is an easy remedy. Rather, one must deal with the guilt of feeling disloyal to the god-man guru, and with the fallout from “leaving the spiritual path”—perhaps for incarnations.

Most [so-called] cult members feel depressed during the first few months of post-cult life. Some compare the experience to falling head-over-heels in love, only to realize that their lover was two-faced and just using them. Others liken their involvement to a spiritual rape of their soul (Hassan, 2000).

Losing one’s cult is like losing the love of one’s life. The lover has lied to you, but the lover is oh so seductive and satisfying, and submission is so thrilling (in Bellamy, 1995).
Belief in a guru, while it persists, entirely overrules rational judgment. Dedicated disciples are as impervious to reason as are infatuated lovers….

[T]he person who becomes a disciple “falls for” a particular guru without being able to distinguish between dross and gold. The process is equivalent to falling in love, or to the occurrence of “transference” in psychotherapy. None of us is immune to such phenomena (Storr, 1996; italics added).

I never questioned Bhagwan’s insistence on surrender. One surrenders to a lover joyously, willingly. It’s only when the love affair ends that you notice the paunchy jowls and sagging muscles, the cruelties and indifference, and suspicion creeps in (Franklin, 1992).
Seen from a certain perspective, my time with Andrew [Cohen] was a botched love affair (van der Braak, 2003).

It may be difficult to walk away from a romantic partner who was once “the center of your life,” on whom you could rely even when you had nowhere else to turn. Imagine, then, how much harder it would be to walk away from a “god,” regardless of how much that figure may be causing you anguish on a daily basis.

========

“Only three things are really needed in order to begin creating a closed, toxic environment—whether that be a “cult,” a bad marriage, a prison or a dictatorship. And those are (i) a significant power differential between the leaders and their followers, (ii) a lack of checks and balances on the leaders to keep them from abusing their existing power and grabbing for more, and (iii) sufficient psychological, financial and/or physical (e.g., locks and bars) constraints to keep the mistreated followers from simply leaving. The increasingly “cult-like” nature of the environment will then follow straightforward, simply via the presence of basic human psychology in both the leaders/guards and their followers/prisoners.

“Further, as in Zimbardo’s study, the only necessary difference between those two groups is in the roles which they have tacitly agreed to play. That is so, even while the one group invariably turns quickly into a split collection of impotent “good guards/disciples” and sadistic “Nazis,” while members of the other set either follow docilely or break down emotionally, yet are unable to “just leave.” “

89. elena - July 21, 2009

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for the thoughtful post.
One’s darkness is just an aspect of the question. Another one is simply being able to say: “Get off my case!” Sometimes it’s necessary to tell one’s self to do so! and just as necessary to say so to others. If one is affirming one’s self in the process no one can get truly hurt and everyone wins by the self affirmation. I very much enjoyed the tone with which you wrote that post. Thanks- It’s very good to connect and not just throw things out at the wind but it is also great to fly when that is possible!

90. DXP - July 21, 2009

87, Ton,

You are right I don’t value religious forms much. But that has not always been true for me and I’ve learned much from all that I’ve been involved with. Yes, it does always come back to the person and the person’s relationship with one’s higher self and one’s life, but for many people, the steps are part of the deepening process. After a while forms are not so needed or wanted or whatever. Also, just because I don’t go for religious forms at this point in time does not mean they do not hold a truthful process for others – that’s for them to tell.

To current members, I will say this tho, excerpting from in2it’s comment : “I never questioned Bhagwan’s insistence on surrender. ” THIS is what ruins religions. This is the seed of blind obedience to an authority which turns the form and the experience of it into fundamentalism and eventually extremism. The fof still wants its members to be BLIND – and so the blog is a threat. And it still insists on obedience.

Don’t you current members ever question that?

91. Vena - July 21, 2009

“Father [i.e., Jim Jones] kept my treasonous thoughts in check by warning us that leaving the church would bring bad karma. He reminded us in his sermons that those who had chosen to join were here because we were on the verge of crossing over to the next plane. Without his help, we would not make it. Those who left or betrayed the Cause in any way would be reincarnated as the lowest life form on Earth and it would take us another hundred thousand years to get to this point again (Layton, 1998).”

This is exactly one of the scare tactics that Robert Burton used and it was very effective. It still is.

92. X-ray - July 21, 2009

91. Vena – July 21, 2009

‘This is exactly one of the scare tactics that Robert Burton used and it was very effective. It still is.’

Sick and fucked up cult leaders are all and everywhere the same.

93. James Mclemore - July 21, 2009

I personally know nothing of the individuals who wrote this, but the message certainly applies well here……

From –
“Spiritual Responsibility: Avoiding Abuses and Pitfalls Along the Path “, by Steven Hassan and Lama Surya Das

“Unselfishness, kindness, gentleness, and compassion should be a basic living principle, not just an ideal. When individuals claim to be spiritually more developed, and put themselves in the role of guru, swami, master, prophet, these virtues must be consistently demonstrated.
We must not allow our desires to know “Absolute Truth” to blind us from observing obvious discrepancies in our teacher’s behaviors. We must become sensitive to the tactic that illegitimate leaders use by turning our questions or comments around and using them to blame or shame us into obedience. A legitimate question or concern demands a respectful response, not evasion or coercion.”

94. ton - July 21, 2009

thanks to james and n2it — great stuff here.

dxp
“…it does always come back to the person and the person’s relationship with one’s higher self and one’s life…”

‘higher self’ ? as opposed to a ‘lower self’ ? or is “one’s life” the lower self ? (‘lower self’ bad, ‘higher self’ good).

“Also, just because I don’t go for religious forms at this point in time does not mean they do not hold a truthful process for others – that’s for them to tell.”

ya, of course if you’re ‘lucky’ through the process of life you ‘live and you learn’ — or not. whatever the case, a person’s individual life ‘process’ is their own little slice of ‘truth’ — and that is true with or without the religious forms you mention.

“THIS is what ruins religions. This is the seed of blind obedience to an authority….”

this ruinous ‘seed’ as you put it, is inherent in the religion itself. a religion that postulates some notion of a ‘higher being’ sitting in heaven keeping watch over you, naturally gives rise to (contains the ‘seed’ for), an ‘authority figure’ in human form. the bhagwan, or guru or priest or rinpoche might represent a conduit to something ‘higher’ and as such they represent ‘something higher’ themselves, thus becoming objects of veneration and worship…. but the destructive ‘seed’ has been planted ‘A PRIORI’ — by the time the guru comes along he’s just taking advantage of the situation. think about it, these people these ‘figures’ and these ‘forms’ and their ‘disciples’ and followers do not spring out of thin air. we as individuals start off as ‘seeds’ ourselves and more or less ‘unconsciously’ or ‘instinctively’ we grow up in this cultural incubator taking in the forms of indoctrination promoted by the society into which we happen to be born… giving rise to…
etc.

95. DXP - July 21, 2009

Ton,

“this ruinous ’seed’ as you put it, is inherent in the religion itself.”

The ruinous seed is in life itself! It is also a seed of possibility. Religions do not own that seed of blind obedience to authority! EVERY aspect and walk of life is threatened by it. We all carry it, so relationship in any field has this mine field. But how interesting to get blown up by it a few times, survive, and grow from the experience.

I guess I still think of a ‘Self’ in a sort of Junian way. I’m sure I can be more enlightened but that will have to happen organically, I cannot force it with intellectual constructs, tho I do think that intellectual constructs can inspire. I’ve been out of the fof long enough that I simply do not think in fof terms, so Self does not imply “lower self” to me any more. All of life, all of the ‘selfs’ lead to the Self. Also, I really think “essence” comes into play in a person’s life. Some people are just attracted to, able to transform, and are vulnerable to forms. If you get the great opportunity to watch children you’ll see that they are very different in essence attractions. So a journey thru a form – be it religion, family, art, healing, whatever – is part of Life on Earth.

One reason I think that forms are useful is that they bring us into contact with others. Since I see that most people experience a series of ‘awakenings’ and not just a “big bang and then that’s it” the contact with others is so helpful in developing conscience. Really, being in a group form exercises one’s conscience. An awakening – a series of awakenings – of conscience is an amazing deepening process. Often, in my experience, it involves an experience of ….. looking for the right word(s) ….. shame, regret, culpability, because relationship involves “them” AND “oneself”. This can be so very painful, and and the urge is to avoid it at all cost (=buffered), but when I have experienced it, the experience is actually clean (meaning it is true) and is not something that is wallowed in. There is no shame in having a process that takes one thru a cult, or whatever earth bound form one chooses. The choice to have a conscience, to NOT be blindly obedient to authority is a real human choice and the opportunity to make it is a real human opportunity. A good opportunity. So, do we buffer it, and avoid the opportunity, and go with blind obedience?

96. ton - July 21, 2009

dxp

“But how interesting to get blown up by it a few times, survive, and grow from the experience.”

‘how interesting?!?’
that’s an ‘interesting’ way of putting it… to me it’s BLOODY FUCKING AWFUL!

” I’ve been out of the fof long enough that I simply do not think in fof terms…”

i don’t know about that… for example, you use ideas/terminology like ‘higher self,’ and framing the experience of getting “blown up a few times” in terms like ‘interesting’ sounds like a vestige of fof rationalizing… you use words in this post such as ‘essence’ and ‘buffered’ — and i’ll admit to the fact that because i know what you mean, this infers that i (can) still think in “fof terms,’ the so-called ‘work language.’ the experience leaves it’s imprint and i don’t know if ‘we’ (or at least i) will ever entirely outlive it….

“One reason I think that forms are useful is that they bring us into contact with others….”

imo as it turns out, building community and the sense of belonging is the primary importance of organized religion (including cults). all the preaching and promises about the spirit world and ‘hereafter’ are really beside the point.

“….There is no shame in having a process that takes one thru a cult, or whatever earth bound form one chooses.”

i have to disagree with you, there is definitely shame involved, i know because i’ve been there. it’s part of the lesson of living and the life-lesson is through digestion of the experience, to learn from it in order that it is not repeated.

“The choice to have a conscience, to NOT be blindly obedient to authority is a real human choice…”

ya, these are fine words and i hate to come off all cynical but i would have to say that some folks do not have a conscience… or dormancy of the organ, in effect renders it null and void. in this regard not everyone has as you said, a “choice”…. for whatever reason, maybe it’s genetic, or bad experiences during upbringing, or a closed head injury from an accident… call it what you will, ‘sleep’ or ‘fate’ or ignorance or… even if the ‘opportunity’ is perceived, some people will fail to act on an ‘opportunity’ “to not be blindly obedient to authority” — maybe because they have too much time invested and too many emotional attachments/habits… or an individual may even feel that the “choice” they make to follow an authority figure is arrived at in total independent freedom and not due to outside influences or psychological coercion…. take for example some of the past postings by the fof apologists and shills… they seem to feel sure and convinced that they are making the choice to be ‘blindly obedient’ — OUT OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL… is that the case?

97. Walter J. Tanner - July 21, 2009

Have others checked out the Gurdjieff blog that Jomo pointed to, gurdjieff-con.net?

Interesting and gutsy stuff, I’ve read almost all the archives. There does seem to be some bias towards Ouspensky, though, like if he hadn’t been contaminated by bad old Gurdjieff and his mongrel system, he would have been the next Maitreya. I don’t know about that, O. was as much an authoritarian asshole as G., at least in the histories I’ve read (like Patterson’s Struggle of the Magicians). I heard that Lachman’s Searching for Ouspensky is likewise hagiographic, anyone read it?

walter.tanner@gmail.com

98. DXP - July 21, 2009

Ton,

‘how interesting?!?’
that’s an ‘interesting’ way of putting it… to me it’s BLOODY FUCKING AWFUL!

I don’t deny the experience does contain some real pain! I only say it does not end there.

“i have to disagree with you, there is definitely shame involved, i know because i’ve been there. it’s part of the lesson of living and the life-lesson is through digestion of the experience, to learn from it in order that it is not repeated.”

Agree. Experiencing conscience – shame, culpability – IS PAINFUL. Probably why people avoid conscience. Learning something – like not repeating something – is a real reward. Compassion for others in the midst of pain is another. I suppose there are many more.

“i don’t know about that… for example, you use ideas/terminology like ‘higher self,’ and framing the experience of getting “blown up a few times” in terms like ‘interesting’ sounds like a vestige of fof rationalizing… you use words in this post such as ‘essence’ and ‘buffered’ — and i’ll admit to the fact that because i know what you mean”

Just trying to communicate. If you know what I mean then, good. After all, we are using a constructed language here – English. If words like Self, higher Self, interesting, essence and buffered (never heard of a counterpart to “being blown up”) bother you then translate them to the commonly used English words. Buffer is then “denial, avoidance, lashing out, changing the meaning” and so on. Essence translates to “traits we are inherently born with, the core we carry with us since birth, talents to be developed”. Besides the fof does not own a fascination in life – actually quite the contrary. I doubt much really interests fof invested people.

“ya, these are fine words and i hate to come off all cynical but i would have to say that some folks do not have a conscience… or dormancy of the organ, in effect renders it null and void.”

This is a really interesting point. I can only give my opinion – from my point of view – and that is Robert does NOT have a conscience. If he ever had one it is long gone. Does that apply to his followers? Maybe,….some. Maybe not all. IMO it is extremely difficult and extremely painful to have a conscience, but bearing that pain is worth it. Where there is no conscience then the recourse is legal boundaries.

99. ton - July 21, 2009

dxp
“If you know what I mean then, good. After all, we are using a constructed language here – English. If words like Self, higher Self, interesting, essence and buffered (never heard of a counterpart to “being blown up”) bother you then translate them to the commonly used English words.” etc…

i am getting the impression that we are talking past each other…. anyway you missed my point… which had nothing to do with being bothered by the words… i think it’s you who’s bothered… you are certainly patronizingly condescending with your explanation of the english language… thanks anyway.

my point was this: that you might be giving yourself a little too much credit when you write “I’ve been out of the fof long enough that I simply do not think in fof terms…” i simply offered you a few illustrations from what i’ve read in your posts, of how the experience, the programming leaves it’s imprint… whether you recognize it or not.

and you said:
“Where there is no conscience then the recourse is legal boundaries.”

maybe in an ideal world, but as it turns out there is a lot of grey area as far as this goes.

100. Jomo Piñata - July 21, 2009

May I suggest that the people exploring what they call “conscience” step outside of that mental construct for a moment.

Instead, consider that “shame” is an “affect”–a “building block” of emotion–which is triggered by certain sets of experiences.

(To clarify, a given emotion–“bittersweet,” for example, or “schadenfreude,” may consist of multiple “affects” in conflict with one another.)

Thinking of shame in this way, as an innate affect, opens up new ways of conceptualizing how people react to, or avoid, its experience.

I find the idea of the “compass of shame” to be eye-opening:

http://bit.ly/3pEedl

101. DXP - July 21, 2009

Ton, you might be right about my mental constructs and forms of thinking. I’ll consider it. Sorry, don’t mean to sound patronizing. Blogging is tricky – we don’t just talk to each other here, but to other current and former fof members. I’m translating into words we all might know. But then again, we all try to use the best words for communicating to whoever we really want to communicate to.

And re legalities, yes you are right it is grey. That’s one reason I’m glad to have some extremely committed and smart people pursuing this, such as Ames.

102. DXP - July 21, 2009

Jomo, I guess we all can use the word ‘conscience’ however we feel like it. I don’t remember it being part of the fof in any way. I really liked Jung’s and Marie Louise von Franz’s writings about conscience. From my own point of view “shame” is not the only way to experience conscience – only one experience for realizing it has been ignored.

103. ton - July 21, 2009

dxp, i agree that blogging can be a bit tricky at times…. i appreciate that you have a wider ‘audience’ in mind even though you may seem to address comments to me…. and along these same lines, as for comments to you about ‘mental constructs,’ i don’t necessarily mean to single you out, we all have ‘baggage’ afterall.

104. Jomo Piñata - July 21, 2009

I don’t say, “reject the concept of conscience.” I certainly don’t reject it. I think it can be examined, and I think doing so in the context of writings about the “shame family” of affects and emotions illuminates the concept. I do think the fourth way ideology hems people in, and I include “conscience” as part of that ideology. The term can limit where people go in their thinking, so I say, set aside the term for the moment, you can learn something new if you set it aside. However, people are definitely free to use whatever words they want.

105. DXP - July 21, 2009

Jomo, Not sure I understand you….. ? I don’t remember conscience being much a part of 4th way and certainly NOT a part of the fof – even when the fof pretended to be 4th way. I think of it as an inner driven “knowing” and if the term is to be discarded then the knowing is something to be saved. Also I found interesting in Junian approaches, that “knowing” is not universal (meaning that what is right for one is not necessarily the same for everyone). Morality is a social construct, but individual conscience is not. Conscience shame comes in recognizing that one has been ignoring one’s inner knowing.

Where I think the term conscience is useful in the context of this blog, is in regards to Robert and possibly certain of his most invested followers – and that is in their LACK of it. I do not think one can be “awakened”, like Robert claims he is and his followers claim he is, without a conscience. No conscience give his assertions a real falseness!

106. loserbaby900 - July 21, 2009

Intresting message on hte web site about Gurdjieff the con man listed by Walter Tanner:

‘It goes to show how we can turn up data on the deleterious effects of Fourth Way in some unexpected venues.

I suspect Murray was already a very unhappy man and self selected into Fourth Way mind-fuck because it validated his pre-existing misery and gave him a seemingly noble pedigree for interpersonal sadism.

I have to tell you that the other day I was telling a young fellow about the Murray pattern of behavior and how he used Gurdjieff to rationalize this cruelty as a teaching method.

The young man was actually fascinated–to my horror, he LIKED the sound of this, found it appealing.

I was alarmed and told him, ‘Please, this is not a good way to treat people. If you are young and resilient this can seem thrilling.

But when you get old enough to understand how it feels to have a heart, and how you feel to have your heart broken, and how long it can take to recover from that, you can find that this is a terrible way to live and you’ve left damage that cannot be repaired. Please, this isnt a good way to live and its not going to teach anything worth while!’

I very much fear that people who have been horribly brutalized in life and crave revenge and a feeling of mastery to compensate for feeling powerless are the ones who find this sort of thing appealing–and find inspiration in the ghastly life stories of sadistic deceitful monsters who dare claim to be spiritual teachers.’

Maybe he met Greg.

107. ton - July 21, 2009

jomo, thanks for the link to the ‘compass of shame.’ i’m in the process of looking over a couple of related websites and viewed a short video on the utube… it seems to be good information that can lead to a deeper self-understanding. briefly, i realize that emotional life can suffer due to the lacking of a vocabulary necessary to express more nuanced and subtler aspects… and this idea of the ‘compass of shame’ is work in that direction. to modify something i said earlier regarding an experience of shame teaching me a lesson, i.e., not to repeat the ‘mistake’… this way of phrasing might be construed as ‘avoidance’ or ‘withdrawal’ on the ‘compass’ and many pages ago i talked about my own personal ‘self-attacks’ in connection to feelings of shame… and of course i’ve done my share of attacking others here and elsewhere…. this is not to go further into a personal analysis… suffice it to say (in my own language), one of the lessons learned was/is, to do things differently and when presented with the opportunity, i can improve based on prior experience.

108. Jomo Piñata - July 22, 2009

105/DXP

I don’t remember conscience being much a part of 4th way

http://bit.ly/gAoCJ

106/ton

recommended reading:

http://bit.ly/g83J2

109. Jomo Piñata - July 22, 2009

105/DXP

See also http://bit.ly/ONhI9

110. in2it - July 22, 2009

Won’t have time to follow the above thread too closely, but that won’t stop me from commenting… I think a key transition that I’ve made over the years is actually seeing the “concepts” of shame and conscience as being entirely separate.

Shame and guilt are connotations usually given to conscience, but you can also see conscience as a powerful ability to perceive — both intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and so on — and to perceive directly without the use of words and arguments or feedback from others.

It’s my belief (which maybe is in line with what DXP feels about it, but I don’t know) that the Fellowship of Friends (along with many other organizations in this world throughout history) actually turns off one’s conscience — in other words, we begin to lose our ability to directly perceive. We begin to allow others to be our organs of perception — whether it’s a self-described teacher, or whoever.

Bad things happen to ourselves and those around us when we lose that ability.

That, to me, is what I mean by lack of conscience. The word certainly has other connotations, but that’s the meaning that I find most relevant in relation to Robert Burton and the FOF.

Using your intuition, your gut feelings, and learning to listen to them again — that imo is the first step toward leaving.

best wishes all.

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/gurusandprisoners.asp

111. in2it - July 22, 2009

Jomo, I agree with what Ton wrote about the ‘compass of shame.’ very pertinent.

112. DXP - July 22, 2009

Jomo, interesting link. I guess I was wrong about conscience not really being part of the 4th way. Nevertheless, it is a common word and I really cannot remember it factoring in in any way in the fof.

in2it, once again you said my thoughts much better than I can! You wrote:

“Shame and guilt are connotations usually given to conscience, but you can also see conscience as a powerful ability to perceive — both intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and so on — and to perceive directly without the use of words and arguments or feedback from others.

It’s my belief (which maybe is in line with what DXP feels about it, but I don’t know) that the Fellowship of Friends (along with many other organizations in this world throughout history) actually turns off one’s conscience — in other words, we begin to lose our ability to directly perceive. We begin to allow others to be our organs of perception — whether it’s a self-described teacher, or whoever.

Bad things happen to ourselves and those around us when we lose that ability.”

That’s where I had the experience of shame in this instance – when I realized how much I had ignored my inner voice of knowing. But, certainly, conscience is not LIMITED to the experience of shame. Just one manifestation. Its probably confusing since in the fof others tried to deliberately shame people into falling in line. That kind of shame is not what I think conscience evokes at all.

113. X-ray - July 22, 2009

93. James Mclemore – July 21, 2009

Very well put, thank you James.

114. fofblogmoderator - July 22, 2009

107 is new

115. ton - July 22, 2009

107 jomo,
that link didn’t work. can you post the title you had in mind?

116. Jomo Piñata - July 22, 2009

114/ton

Try this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OvsB3NG-TN0C

Title: Shame and Pride: Affect, Sex and the Birth of the Self
Author: Donald L. Nathanson

117. Jomo Piñata - July 22, 2009

111/DXP

I really cannot remember [conscience] factoring in in any way in the fof.

I suspect our respective tenures there didn’t overlap. In my experience of more than 25 years ago it was discussed often.

118. Mikey - July 22, 2009

En Garde! Pivot, parry, thrust. Touche!

119. DXP - July 22, 2009

Jomo, I left over 25 years ago – so it must be my faulty memory of what was important in the fof that I don’t remember conscience and developing conscience being important. I do remember the 4th way being gradually discarded, first by Robert. But conscience and consciousness are broad commonly used terms, certainly not in any way owned by any particular church.

When you remember conscience being discusses what was the discussion about?

120. Panoritsa - July 22, 2009

DXP. 118

lucky you, leaving 25 years ago…I left less than a year ago and I still have the urge to bless the moment I took the step a couple of times every single day…The Fellowship and its weirdness has become a kind of Victorian Spectacle…

Conscience was hardly discussed in the FOF. It was mentioned as part of the attributes of the “Queen of Hearts” (what a mad way to classify and describe human beings…). That’s it. Most of the people could not really discuss the issue of conscience. What could you say? Part of the lower self, irrelevant, an obstacle to becoming “conscious.” Burton and a group of pseudo intellectuals (half of them not able to finish high school…but under the direct guidance of C-influence…how mad can it get???) re-invented the most secret of the secrets…something C-influence put in every single molecule and every single piece of art….the SEQUENCE was born! and the after playing with words in your mind (trying to attain some peace of mind…) you were trying to breath the 4 (countless chopped fingers were used to illustrate the truth of this “revelation”…) wordless breaths…

But conscience as “Conscience is an ability or a faculty that distinguishes whether one’s actions are right or wrong. It leads to feelings of remorse when one does things that go against his/her moral values, and to feelings of rectitude or integrity when one’s actions conform to our moral values. It is also the attitude which informs one’s moral judgment before performing any action. The extent to which such moral judgments are based in reason has been a matter of controversy almost throughout the history of Western philosophy…” NO, we did not do that…We were against FEMININE DOMINANCE and all this conscience thing was for the sleepy people.

How could you discuss conscience in a Cult where the leader is corrupted and f***s young men in a sequence and in various quantities…

Good discussion all of you…Thanx.

121. Jomo Piñata - July 22, 2009

At the meetings I used dutifully to attend twice weekly at centers, there was plenty of discussion of “the still small voice of conscience.” In those days people asked their own honest questions and got responses from others. We relentlessly pored over “The Fourth Way” and “In Search of the Miraculous” and “The Psychology of Man’s Possible Evolution” and “Conscience” and there were many discussions about the things in those books. Don’t you remember this?

http://bit.ly/v9HZo

“And I was in an unusual emotional state all the time which sometimes began to be burdensome.”
“How can this be got rid of? I cannot bear it anymore,” I asked G.
“Do you want to go to sleep?” said G.
“Certainly not,” I said.
“Then what are you asking about? This is what you wanted, make use of it. You are not asleep at this moment!

[Soon thereafter O. begins to “converse” with G. without words and without G. even being in the same room.]

We had many discussions about the state described in this passage as being one of conscience. And so when I found myself in an uncomfortable, burdensome, enduringly unpleasant emotional state, ostensibly caused by “friction,” I took it to be “conscience” and tried to welcome it as what I had been searching for, thinking that, from that platform, I might be able to ignite certain mystical states or powers. I am sure other people had similar experiences. Back in my day, it was something we talked about.

122. fofblogmoderator - July 22, 2009

106 is new

123. DXP - July 22, 2009

Jomo, interesting. Yes I remember in an outlying center talk about conscience. But after moving to, then, Renaissance, I don’t remember it being considered at all. In the outlying center I remember clutches of people discussing all the major and fine points of the 4th way – it is a fond memory of interesting engaged young people. But in the center there was always a emphasis on the “Teacher” and that grew into a sort of rock star cultish drooling. Like Panorista said, conscience was degraded into feminine dominance and then discarded. I left when I realized the fof was becoming emotionally addictive for me and that it was -designed- to be so. Also, I came to not regard the 4th way itself as a very valuable “system”. That’s another discussion tho. So neither the 4th way, and certainly not what the fof was becoming appealed to me. Also, Robert was a con and a sham (at best).

Panorista, did you join because of interest in the 4th way ideas? I just don’t see why the so called sequence and counting shit was accepted. Obviously you did not – at least for long. Maybe its that frog in hot water thing?

124. Ames Gilbert - July 22, 2009

To those who have experienced conscience, there can be no mistaking it for something else, whatever you call it. It is certainly sufficient unto itself. To those who disregard or who have buried theirs, there isn’t much point in trying to describe it or convince them to learn to value, trust and use the gift.

I agree with DXP, in my personal experience of the FoF (‘78–‘94), there was little substantive discussion of conscience. It was sometimes talked about theoretically, as something to be gained in the far distant future, more a by-product than worthwhile or important in itself, a result of long tortuous lifetimes of ‘working on oneself’. In the meantime, the clear message was that ‘giving up one’s will to the teacher’ was the first, most important, practical step in one’s evolution, and that was going to be for a long, long, long time. Burton would instruct you to give up Judeo-Christian morality, and accept his substitute. It was implicit and explicit that Burton would be the one to tell you when that was no longer necessary. In the meantime, “what is the use of a conscious sheep?”

Philosophizing right along, I think of shame on the same level as morality. That is, it is a social construct that varies over time and place, depending on the particular culture. Shame, from that point of view, would be the emotional response to being caught (internally or externally) being immoral or unworthy according to the norms of the society or religion at that time. Remorse, in my opinion, would be on a different level. Remorse is being momentarily put oneself in another’s shoes and seeing the consequences of one’s actions on another. From my point of view, remorse is a kind of gatekeeper to conscience, and the momentary glimpse is an alert to the existence of conscience.

Whatever, Burton made it quite clear what he thought about conscience when he said, “Conscience is just a collection of ‘I’s; anyone accumulating too much material there should leave the school”.

I certainly agree with the part about leaving the ‘school’. Anyone who is in touch with their conscience has no need for Burton or the Fellowship of Friends, and should leave immediately.

125. brucelevy - July 22, 2009

Real conscience is a road block to the criminal activities of the FOF. Of course it would play a minimal role now, if any role at all. The membership accepting conscience as residing in the “queen of hearts” shows just how fucked up one needs to be to remain there.

126. brucelevy - July 22, 2009

And, of course, there is no place for conscience for the sociopath. It doesn’t compute, except as part of the “act” of consciousness.

127. sallymcnally - July 22, 2009

‘We must all learn to listen to one another with understanding and compassion, to hear what is being felt by the other.’

Thich Nhat Hanh

128. ton - July 22, 2009

speaking of conscience, i saw a film this morning called AN ACT OF CONSCIENCE. although it doesn’t apply to specifics of the fof situation, it does illustrate conscience as a verb… and to me this is the point of conscience; if that ‘still small voice’ is ignored through inaction, then conscience atrophies.

worthwhile viewing:

http://www.turningtide.com/aoc.htm

129. nigel harris price - July 22, 2009

A couple of days ago, on the blog, there was talk about ‘only taking the spiritual path’ and how there were pitfalls in this outlook. My answer to this would be “What is the point in being born into the physical world?”, if there is only the need to ‘develop the spiritual’. I often compare what we are doing on this earth to the culinary art, inasmuch as it possible to ‘make a feast fit for a king’ or else a ‘dog’s dinner’ (English terminology for a complete mess). I believe that what we do and the medium we choose to develop either essence or personality is so important, as this choice has the opportunity to bring us to ‘spiritual happiness’ (the ability to feel joy in one’s actions) or to aggravate us and perpetuate our ‘false selves’ all the way to death. Yes, I do believe our physical life matters – ‘spheroids’ to Burton saying (and repeated by Haven), “Consciousness is not functions” Do any of you guys on the blog believe that?…..Nigel.

130. Tatyana - July 22, 2009

It occurred to me that the entrepreneurs of the future must be very interested to know how to make people PAY for the opportunity to work hard instead of being PAID. It is Journey Forth by Day, folks!

131. James Mclemore - July 22, 2009

130. Tatyana

From Wikipedia –

“The Book of Dead” is the common name for the ancient Egyptian funerary text known as “Spells of Coming” (or “Going”) “Forth By Day.”

I don’t know about ‘Going Forth By Day’, but ‘Spells of Coming’ certainly seems somehow symbolic for the fof. They may wish to look into changing the name. Young males can ejaculate and have a spell put on them at the very same time. What a deal.

132. Tatyana - July 22, 2009

I have a question.

Once again I was puzzled by the current FOF member’s idea and couldn’t find anything in response. The idea that doing something biologically “normal” is being a slave to a mechanical nature when being above nature seems to be more cultural and even spiritual (as a justification to RB’s sex life).

I would appreciate your elaborations on this.

133. nigel harris price - July 23, 2009

“The world should lose her qualities if the celestial spheres should forget their wanted motions; if nature should intermit her colours and leave altogether the observations of her own laws: if the moon should wander from her beaten way; the times and seasons blend themselves by disordered and confused mixture: what shall become of man who sees not plainly that obedience unto the laws of nature is the stay of the whole world.”

Poetry on Heavitree Sculpture 2009

134. X-ray - July 23, 2009

124. Ames Gilbert – July 22, 2009
125. brucelevy – July 22, 2009

100% agreed.

131. James Mclemore – July 22, 2009
‘I don’t know about ‘Going Forth By Day’, but ‘Spells of Coming’ certainly seems somehow symbolic for the fof. They may wish to look into changing the name. Young males can ejaculate and have a spell put on them at the very same time. What a deal’

Would ‘CUMMING EVERY DAY’ work better James?

135. James Mclemore - July 23, 2009

132. Tatyana

I would not be able to elaborate on that as it sounds like gibberish to me. I think they use what they believe to be esoteric sounding phrases that are passed out by the inner circle in order to try and justify what there is no justification for. Just the sheer fact that they are attempting to justify something should be a giveaway to them (what with their ultra- sharp observational powers), but for some reason it is not. Justification indicates that something will not stand up to the light of truth, otherwise there would be no need to try and defend it. Only lies need defense, the truth does not require it.
I can see where you would wish to reason with some of your friends that are still ‘in’, because you care about them, but I doubt that ‘reason’ or arguments will work in most instances. I think the best you can do is to simply be who you are and reflect the fact that life outside of the cult is alive and openended.

136. Panoritsa - July 23, 2009

Tatyana,

just a very quick reply as I am on my way…

I like your questions; mainly because they put me at the spot and I start questioning where I was a year or so ago…

What can one say to justify why one is in a cult? Anything.

Massive hysteria and imitation helps a lot. A very low self esteem helps too.

Followers who are close to Burton and protect him from the crowds of followers help a lot. In my view these guys do more harm than Burton himself. They have interests. And they won’t drop them like this.

137. Six-Weeker - July 23, 2009

I would like to introduce a theme that may not have been discussed previously. I have read a lot of criticism of Mr Burton and his activities, and I assume that this criticism is justified. However, I would like to ask the following question. How did Mr. Burton manage to so impress and influence a group of very intelligent people? Why did they accept his claims of spiritual development and become his loyal, obedient, disciples, providing him with a lot of money, among other things? In other words, my question is, what are Mr. Burton’s positive qualities or talents?
Now please allow me to digress a little bit, and then I will work back to my theme as stated above. I was a member of the Fellowship Of Friends for a total of 6 weeks. After 6 weeks I had developed a negative opinion of the organization and quit. After 6 weeks I obviously knew very little about the organization. However, with that said, I will describe the negative impression I developed. I noticed that the members tended to be above average in intelligence and in worldly success. But the 6 meetings which I attended seemed to be extremely boring. I couldn’t see that what the members had to say in those meetings had much value. Occasionally we would discuss some weighty subject. At one meeting the fellow in charge of the meeting for that day described himself as a man number 4, a title that had been conferred on him by Mr. Burton. (It seemed that provoked a certain amount of not very polite scepticism on the part of some of the members who questioned him about that, and his supposed expertise in something-or-other.) The man number 4 began a discussion by asking the other members how they would use shocks at the intervals in an octave to continue on in a straight line with their objective. There were a lot of answers proposed, but I got the impression that the other members had no more idea about how to accomplish that than I did. It seemed to me that such discussions were described by Mr Gurdjief by his phrase of pouring from any empty cup into the void. (or something to that effect). I remember one message that Mr. Burton sent to the group. He expressed himself in very affectionate terms. I don’t wish to criticize
him for that, but I can only say that it didn’t appeal to me. The members were very serious about the organization and their spiritual objectives. However, I imagine one could find similar groups of serious people in the various organized religions. After 6 weeks my guess was that the seriousness of the members and their devotion to the cause of spiritual development was mainly based on imagination. They had read about the Gurdief groups and they imagined themselves to be in a similar group. But from my point of view, the group I was in had nothing in common with the groups described in the literature of students of Gurdjieff.
However, as I said, I don’t really claim to know much about the organization. I consider that
it is possible that their was a considerable degree of reality in the claims of spiritual development.
Before I joined, I visited the winery several times. Once I made an appointment to visit the museum of antique Chinese furniture. A fellow named Chris was nice enough to take his time to give me, without charge, a private tour of the Chinese furniture. I was not absolutely sure, but it seemed to me that perhaps he was reading my mind, as he continued with his tour. A couple of times he started up his conversation with what seemed like an answer to a question that was in my mind, but which I had not expressed. After I left the museum and was approaching my car, a black dog walked up behind my car and sat down directly behind it in such a manner that I would not be
able to back out until the dog moved. Probably at this point some people are laughing at me, but, in any case, the business of the dog seemed rather strange to me.
So now I have arrived back at my original theme. What genuine talents does Mr Burton have? Is it possible that he has impressed people with genuine psychic talents? If not, then what other talents does he use to so impress people who tend to be successful, in the world, and above average in intelligence.

138. Yesri Baba - July 23, 2009

132 Tatyana

From my studies of the 4th way writings as well as various other spiritual literatures it is well documented that taking it up the ass and sucking buckets of cock places one well above the level of nature and assures that one has been freed from the slavery of ones mechanical
tendencies. Your friends thinking seems sound to me. No need to respond to that kind of lucid reasoning.

By the way, have you been talking to that freakazoid retard DC again?

139. Yesri Baba - July 23, 2009

132

Between bouts of gut busting laughter another response came to mind:

“If you want to pay tons of money for pretty things and you enjoy getting your dick sucked by, and butt fucking a grody old guy, knock yourself out. But if you think something ‘above nature’ is going on there you’ve got some serious problems.”

140. Mikey - July 23, 2009

How can you say such things, Yesri?
DXP & 6-weeker just want to play.

141. Mikey - July 23, 2009

I agree with James. (One time only).
Tatyana you should just admit your intellectual inferiority and blame your terrible fate of relative enlightenment on dumb luck.

142. veramente - July 23, 2009

137 six weeker
So now I have arrived back at my original theme. What genuine talents does Mr Burton have? Is it possible that he has impressed people with genuine psychic talents? If not, then what other talents does he use to so impress people who tend to be successful, in the world, and above average in intelligence
———–
You are joking about the above average intelligence of people who tend to be successful, right?

143. elena - July 23, 2009

Six Weeker,

Thanks for being here. I find your question accurate and yet limited and limiting. The whole phenomena is more complicated. If fifteen thousand or so are supposed to have joined and only fifteen hundred to two thousand were somewhat stable it speaks well for humanity that the majority who joined left and were not as stupid as the rest of us who stayed for decades. Stupid, needy, lonely, unconscious and whatever else. But that fact doesn’t in any way justify cults. A mistake is a mistake no matter how soon you correct it and dealing with the “mistakes” in cults that have become more like intentional crime-holes for people without scruples is a necessary step for no matter what society.

The better side of the equation rests in realizing that no matter how terrible the experience we did a master on human frailties. Both compassion and firmness, tolerance and boundaries come as a result of the experience. Realizing how vulnerable young people are in front of the cult-like behavior not only of cults but of society becomes an issue worth exploring. Freedom of the individual today is the issue but how to avoid selfishness from invading that freedom is also the issue. Perhaps individuals try to escape the status quo of society in pockets of cults that promise awakening only to confirm that running away from reality and society has nothing to do with consciousness. We can’t take life away from life and avoid the struggle where it is needed. Joining a cult simply proved more decadent than life itself!

144. veramente - July 23, 2009

137 six weeker
So now I have arrived back at my original theme. What genuine talents does Mr Burton have? Is it possible that he has impressed people with genuine psychic talents?
————
There are not genuine talents, just a very good army of well prepared “students” who lure new members at the prospective meetings.
I do not doubt the sincerity of the recruiters at one point or another. Perhaps that is the initial trick: to believe they are saying the truth and wanting to save/attract the individual who seems to possess a magnetic center.One in a million of course because we are so special.
All the rest is fabricated by imagination and projections onto the teacher.

If what you are saying is true about your tour at the Ming collection and you had the impression the tour guy read your mind is that because even a “good” fellowshipper has basically an act that is different from what we find in every day life.
The pausing, the smile, the cool silence in between sentences, all showing a certain talent for being present. Plus the beautiful and cool sourroundings, not a speck of dust; meanwhile if the “queen ” is at home someone is getting “willingly” raped in some distant chamber…
Very absurd.
Shark lurking in the sea of life with big toothed smile: this is Robert Burton’s talent.

145. Jomo Piñata - July 23, 2009

137/Six Weeker

What genuine talents does Mr Burton have? Is it possible that he has impressed people with genuine psychic talents?

People involved the early and mid-1970s, back before my involvement, often reported that he impressed them by projecting an aura of great certainty and imperturbability which appealed to them during an era of historical and personal upheaval. I do not speak from my own experience of this, but from the accounts of others.

During my membership I often observed a phenomenon I now describe as “proprietary synchronicity.” A coincidence would happen, I would observe it, coincidences would be the subject of discussion, they would be the subject of interpretation, and the interpretive scheme was always tied to membership in the organization. The idea was that these coincidences were higher forces communicating with you through your life events, and that this mode of communication was directly attributable to, and dependent upon, remaining a member of the Fellowship. The idea was that if you left, the coincidences would stop. Seems kind of absurd, but there is something intriguing and mysterious about strange coincidences.

My view is that Burton “took credit” for the coincidences, not personal credit so much as “organizational credit” (since the organization is simply Burton writ large). One obtained a certain social status, both in one’s own eyes and in the eyes of others_ through the independent experience of coincidences (“verifying C influence”). What a flattering thought, higher forces working directly with me. I must be special. So it served to bolster a fledgling self-concept that I must be developing spiritually, and it cemented a social bond with others going through the same process, a social bond that provided some added discentive to departure from the organization. Then phobias were inculcated to the effect that if one left the organization, this phenomenon would stop.

The concept of “proprietary synchronicity” seems to belong to the class of phenomena described by Robert J. Lifton’s term “mystical manipulation” in his nonexhaustive list of eight conditions of thought reform:

http://bit.ly/RtXWV

That social bond I mentioned above is explored in an article by Philip Cushman entitled The Self Besieged: Recruitment-Indoctrination Techniques in Restrictive Groups:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120025375/abstract?

146. Tatyana - July 23, 2009

137 Six weeker. Thank you for your story. I especially liked the part when you felt that the member was reading your mind. I can assure you that he did not read your mind, but maybe your questions during the tour were the obvious questions of anyone else who comes to this tour?

I have to agree with you that RB is not a ‘simple case’, somehow he managed to keep this show going for 30 some years and people do get hooked on it. I was recently one of the “events junkie” ready to pay my last money to go to the event with Robert! It is addictive, it keeps you puzzled, trying to improve, making more efforts, making the right payment so you can get the results, but the results are such that soon enough you are in deep shit and you are on your own.

Well, if being a biggest asshole and the most ruthless magnet of energy – is a genuine talent, then – yes.

It’s funny, your name made me think first that you are a long term member on the 6 weeks list (who did not pay for 6 weeks and is on the way out). But you basically were lucky to escape quickly. And… (let me put some common FOF BS on you) “did not recognize C influence” in the form of the dog trying to show you that you can’t go back….

“He expressed himself in very affectionate terms. I don’t wish to criticize him for that, but I can only say that it didn’t appeal to me.” This made me laugh. I can’t emphasize enough how much this (and many other things) did not appeal to me! But something changes with time – your attitude when you are advised to believe that this is just your instinctive center buffers the energy of the conscious being.

147. Tatyana - July 23, 2009

I was watching Las Vegas Reviled the other day. They said that casinos are designed for you to spend money not to win. The machines are programmed to benefit the casino, the interior is made relaxing and home like, alcohol and sex, sound of money and laughter of winning people make you feel that you can win, but – you lose. Same with Apollo. We heard many times that “Apollo is designed for you to be present” but the truth is that it is designed for you to spend and to keep spending your whole life. Apollo is a sin city!

148. DXP - July 23, 2009

Tatyana, regarding your friend… most of us come from a culture which is conditioned by vast centuries of this kind of self denial – or denial of the life of the body in favor of some sort of afterlife (or non corporeal life). Religions do this, especially the fundamentalist wings of religions. fof takes that and amplifies it and so does the 4th way system (not that the fof in any way whatsoever adheres to any ‘system’ other than what Robert feels like at any given moment!). Your friend is mentally talking himself out of his real inner knowing, not trusting himself, not trusting his own conscience. I think he can hear from others that it is never too late to return to his inner knowing. If he likes to frame things in body vs. spiritual terms then the body is spirit embodied and is the deepest touchstone of spirit. But body and spirit are just categories and are not really different or separate.

—–
Mikey
“How can you say such things, Yesri?
DXP & 6-weeker just want to play.”

What are you talking about?

149. Jomo Piñata - July 23, 2009

“Mystical manipulation is the perception of coincidental or inevitable events as spiritual signs. Recruits are taught that such signs reveal the greatness of the group.”

http://bit.ly/RtXWV

(scroll down to #48)

150. fofblogmoderator - July 23, 2009

145 is new

151. Tatyana - July 23, 2009

145 Awesome!:

“Narcissistic vampires believe they are so special that the rules don’t apply to them. They expect the red carpet to be rolled out for them wherever they go, and if it isn’t, they get quite surly.
      They don’t wait, they don’t recycle, they don’t pay retail, they don’t stand in line, they don’t clean up after themselves, they don’t let other people get in front of them in traffic, and their income taxes rival great works of fiction. Illness and even death is no excuse for other people not immediately jumping up to meet their needs. They aren’t the least bit ashamed of using other people and systems for their own personal gain. They boast about how they take advantage of just about everybody.”

152. DXP - July 23, 2009

6weeker

who are you trying to flatter with the intelligence and achieving nonsense? And why? I actually never saw that the fof members were much at achieving anything at all in our lives. In fact, lots of us wasted years, if not decades, in merely supporting Robert. Maybe it was just so easy and no thought necessary. Intelligence, critical thinking an achievement were actively DIScouraged by Robert and the members in power.

I remember hearing stories from starry eyed boys of how Robert said some profound synchronicity thing at the Coffee Tree when some bread would drop on the table or some other crap. It was very convenient. During the 80’s one of the space shuttles blew up. It could have been framed “the only one that did not reach the stars was the one with the teacher on it” (there was a teacher on board). Of course Robert did not ply his gaggle of boys with that, and if one is going down the road of ‘reading signs’ then the selectivity makes that into outright crap. And, if one was going to “predict” something, why not something that happens all the time, like….say…. economic hardship, war, natural disaster. Robert does not have an intelligent mind and he actively discourages it in others.

153. Tatyana - July 23, 2009

more from 145 link:

“This one is tough. Some anti-cult pundits like to warn that cult leaders are so slick and so clever that they can instantly hypnotize anyone, and just suck them right into the cult. Supposedly, in no time at all, the cult leaders can have newcomers brainwashed and turned into drooling zombies and fawning sycophant followers who mindlessly parrot cult dogma forever after. Alas, it ain’t necessarily so.

Baba Ram Dass stated that cult members actually con themselves — A slick cult leader is good at reading body language, and seeing what excites a member — sex, wealth, power, grandiose claims of spirituality, big ego trips, possible immortality, or whatever — and then the con artist cult leader will pretend to offer those things to members. Likewise, the leader will see what members are afraid of, be it death, shame, rejection, ostracism, embarrassment, weakness, or whatever, and the phony guru will use those fears to manipulate members’ minds.

But in truth, the cult members still con themselves. It isn’t like they can’t ever see that something is fishy, that things are not what they are advertised to be, that the phony guru isn’t delivering the goods, that the guru and his cult are dishonest. The members have to deliberately overlook a lot of contradictions and discrepancies in order to become and stay true believers. They have to rationalize and explain away a lot of stuff, and deceive themselves about what is really going on. So in the end, the cult members con themselves.”

154. Tatyana - July 23, 2009

and more:

“F.B.I. Agent Fox Mulder on the TV show “The X-Files” had a poster on his wall that read, “I Want To Believe.” That is the national anthem of a lot of cult members. They just want to believe, in spite of any and all evidence to the contrary.

Wanting to believe is perhaps the most powerful dynamic initiating and sustaining cult-like behavior.
The Wrong Way Home: Uncovering the Patterns of Cult Behavior in American Society, Arthur J. Deikman, M.D., page 137.

Some of the things that cult members believe are so extreme that you can only conclude that they are insane. In Vernon Howell’s (“David Koresh’s”) Branch Davidian cult, Howell told his followers that he was the son of God, and that he had to sexually take all of the women and girls in the cult and impregnate them, in order to produce the “Grandchildren of God”, and the other male members actually believed it and handed over the women. Even more extreme, cults like the Branch Davidians, the People’s Temple, Heaven’s Gate, and the Solar Temple actually convinced their members that they should commit suicide. And they did it. Now that is undeniably nuts.

Some people want to know the truth, and some people just want to believe in fairy tales. Cult members choose to believe in fairy tales.”

155. Walter J. Tanner - July 23, 2009

Six-weeker,

There is actually a lot of content on the previous blog-chapters about the positive aspects of Burton, his teaching, school and followers. Those of us who do not believe that our Fellowship time was a wholly negative experience rarely post here anymore, though, because when we do the corns that get stepped on create the most embarrassing outbursts from some of the blog’s more colorful characters, lessening the gravitas and impact of the blog overall.

The chief misunderstanding, “formatory” as O. used to say, is the inability to hold in one’s consciousness that Burton is an enlightened teacher, a fiendish villain, a con-man, fool and a pervert. He is all these things and never has or will apologize for it. You might call it sociopathic or narcissistic — that’s fine I don’t personally trust the psychologists any more than the gurus — but the guy has balls, he actually has big balls several times a year, an opera and orchestra, he grows palm trees in the Sierras, he eats like a king, drinks very good wine, travels the world, and he gets laid, in just the way he likes, as much as he wants. I also hear, though purely rumored, that his oxycotyn intake is copious. You can freebase that stuff and its practically like heroine.

The lesson for all of us is that even for all the “fruits” of Robert’s efforts, he is a deeply unhappy and insecure man. I had not felt the emotion pity before I met Robert.

I think I had better tell you a story. It is an old story, told in the Moscow groups about the origin of the system and the work and about self-remembering — It happened in an unknown country at an unknown date that a sly man was walking past a cafe and met a devil. The devil was in very poor shape, both hungry and thirsty, so the sly man took him into the cafe, ordered some coffee and asked him what the trouble was. The devil said that there was no business. In the old days he used to buy souls and burn them to charcoal, because when people died they had very fat souls that he could take to hell, and all the devils were pleased. But now all the fires in hell were out, because when people died there were no souls.

Then the sly man suggested that perhaps they could do some business together. “Teach me how to make souls,” he said, “and I will give you a sign to show which people have souls made by me,” and he ordered more coffee. The devil explained that he should teach people to remember themselves, not to identify and so on, and then, after some time, they would grow souls.

The sly man set to work, organized groups and taught people to remember themselves. Some of them started to work seriously and tried to put into practice what he taught them. Then they died, and when they came to the gates of heaven, there was St. Peter with his keys on one side and the devil on the other. When St. Peter was ready to open the gates, the devil would say, “May I just ask one question—did you remember yourself?” “Yes, certainly,” the man would answer and thereupon the devil would say, “Excuse me, this soul is mine.”

This went on for a long time, until they managed somehow to communicate to the earth what was happening at the gates of heaven. Hearing this, the people he was teaching came to the sly man and said, “Why do you teach us to remember ourselves if, when we say we have remembered ourselves, the devil takes us?”

The sly man asked, “Did I teach you to say you remember yourselves? I taught you not to talk.” They said, “But this was St. Peter and the devil!” and the sly man said, “But have you seen St. Peter and the devil at groups? So do not talk. Some people did not talk and managed to get to heaven. I did not only make an arrangement with the devil, I also made a plan by which to deceive the devil.”

walter.tanner@gmail.com

156. Tatyana - July 23, 2009

155. Walter J. Tanne

“The Cult Test
Questions 41 to 50
by A. Orange

Many cult leaders suffer from borderline, disassociate or multiple personality disorders. Members feel honored to be with, and be seen, around them. But their personality can change dramatically in a flash. Cult leaders are always very disturbed individuals. They are usually victims turned persecutor, having a history of involvement in other social, political or religious cults and/or suffering the effects of a traumatic childhood. Behind their strong and confident exterior (pseudo-personality) they need their leader position to compensate for a very fragile sense of self-worth, self-esteem and self-identity.”

157. ton - July 23, 2009

155
gee wizz walter, you appear to think of yourself as part of a ‘4th way’ orthodoxy…. by the way, how’s business at the old lemon-aid stand? but seriously, what does that tired and silly ‘teaching’ story really suggest? keep your mouth shut, follow the program and one day you’ll be rewarded in the hereafter, in some imaginary place in the sky… and the threat of the fires of ‘eternal damnation’ is of course the alternative…. hmm where have i heard that before? this little story sounds like a perfect prescription for brainwashing and mind control.

“The most basic feature of the thought reform environment, the psychological current upon which all else depends, is the control of human communication. Through this milieu control the totalist environment seeks to establish domain over not only the individual’s communication with the outside (all that he sees and hears, reads and writes, experiences, and expresses), but also — in its penetration of his inner life — over what we may speak of as his communication with himself. It creates an atmosphere uncomfortably reminiscent of George Orwell’s 1984…. (Page 420.)”

i’m gonna suggest that there are in fact other ways of looking at things…. here’s an old song with a clue to living more ‘in the moment’ afterall, isn’t that one of the expressed aims of ‘the work’ ? may you hear this again
for the very first time:

158. ton - July 23, 2009

walter,

p.s.

you might want to spend some time studying this:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_guru_right

(thanks jomo)

159. nigel harris price - July 23, 2009

156 Tatyana

Don’t you think that, in California, the need for cult leaders is on a similar level to needing psychiatrists. Don’t you think they fulfil the same need?
…..Nigel.

160. Dr. Pangloss - July 23, 2009

155. Walter J. Tanner

“— but the guy has balls, he actually has big balls ”

I can assure you that his balls are small and shriveled and will never bare fruit. Palm trees in the Sierras? Big fucking deal.

161. WhaleRider - July 24, 2009

Six Weeker:
Despite one’s intelligence, part of Burton’s deception game in the “middle years” of the FOF was that new followers were not able to meet him for a year or two after joining, thus CULTivating a significant amount of projection on the part of the follower from all the hearsay and second hand information about him. The frame of “teacher” was instilled over and over, until the “man” was more of a myth than anything else.

162. Tatyana - July 24, 2009

From Orange papers 145:

“It’s interesting to compare Marshall Herff Applewhite and Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman, both of whom were crazy cult leaders, and also homosexuals who were tormented by sexual desires which were considered very socially unacceptable in their time. Mind you, homosexuality does not usually drive men to become insane cult leaders — it almost never does — but in the case of those two nuts, it was certainly a contributing factor. As a Lutheran minister in 1902, it was simply totally unacceptable for Buchman to be a homosexual, and Marshall Applewhite was fired from his job in 1970 as a music professor at the University of St. Thomas in Houston after school administrators learned that he had an affair with a male student. Both were probably insane anyway, or heading that a’ way, for other reasons, but those negative experiences just helped to increase their sense of isolation and loneliness, and push them further into their madness… Tragic.”

163. rock that boat - July 24, 2009

Ah…Journey Fourth By Day.
The gathering of the sheep, world wide!
The sheep will pay through the nose to attend
meetings, breakfasts, dinners. Maybe there is even a ballet.

And yes, it was fun, tempting to pay a couple of hundred bucks
to get to the events. All dressed up.
Meeting so and so from Paris, or
so and so from London or from where ever.
Sitting sipping wine in the beautiful rose garden.

But the payment is more than monetary. The bait is the
Journey-FBD. It’s the hook, and you go for it like a little fish ….and bite! Hook line and sinker. Those students on the fence, those in an in an interval are back trapped in the circle, from where there is no escape. Unless we, here at on the blog or on the Greater Fellowship Site help to set them free.

Remember Gurdjieff’s circle story? ‘Gurdjiefff
witnessed a strange incident: he saw a boy, weeping and making strange movements, struggling with all his might to break out of a circle drawn around him by other boys. Gurdjieff released the boy by erasing part of the circle and the child ran from his tormentors.’

‘A circle drawn around him by other boys’ Read: ‘Inner circle,
RB and the boys, motif; desperately in need of piles and piles of money to support the shopping addiction, travel, and the insanely decadent life style.
‘Gurdjieff released the boy by erasing part of the circle and the child ran from his tormentors.’
Read: Ex students can erase part of the circle so someone else can also escape

164. brucelevy - July 24, 2009

161. WhaleRider

“part of Burton’s deception game in the “middle years” of the FOF was that new followers were not able to meet him for a year or two after joining, thus CULTivating a significant amount of projection on the part of the follower from all the hearsay and second hand information about him.”

Unless you were a potential fuck bunny, then nothing else mattered, except the accelerated grooming and “specialness” that he would pick you out of the rabble. Fast track to the inner circle (anal sphincter).

165. brucelevy - July 24, 2009

163. rock that boat

“Journey Fourth By Day”, Drop Your Drawers By Night.

166. James Mclemore - July 24, 2009

155. Walter J. Tanner

“The chief misunderstanding, “formatory” as O. used to say, is the inability to hold in one’s consciousness that Burton is an enlightened teacher, a fiendish villain, a con-man, fool and a pervert. He is all these things..”

I get the other descriptions, but would define for me what “enlightened teacher” means to you. And what do you think he has, or what did you experience him doing that led you to describe him that way.

167. Jomo Piñata - July 24, 2009

On the Temple of Priapus, it is written,

Introitus per diem, exodus post coitus daemoniacus perfidus vitiosus.

168. X-ray - July 24, 2009

137. Six-Weeker – July 23, 2009

‘How did Mr. Burton manage to so impress and influence a group of very intelligent people?’

He didn’t.
Gurdjieff and Ouspensky did.

169. DXP - July 24, 2009

‘How did Mr. Burton manage to so impress and influence a group of very intelligent people?’

He didn’t.
Gurdjieff and Ouspensky did.

Exactly. 6 weeker, you seem to deem yourself very intelligent – at least enough to recognize other intelligent people and you were not impressed (at least as far as your -bogus- post asserts). The fof was -and is- not a group of really intelligent people. We got duped and that is really not very smart. This is hard to admit. We were stupid and not intelligent. We were drawn to being a part of a group and willing to put aside any intelligent critical thinking to do so. Robert’s boys were willing to get fucked and everyone else willing to ignore it all and be impressed with the impressed boys. And it was all in the service of a pseudo smart interest in the 4th way – at best. More commonly it was in the service of being in some ‘cool’ group and whatever else the individual was servicing in regards to their personal baggage and trauma we carried into the scene.

170. Ill Never Tell - July 24, 2009

123. DXP:
‘. . .Yes I remember in an outlying center talk about conscience. But after moving to, then, Renaissance, I don’t remember it being considered at all. In the outlying center I remember clutches of people discussing all the major and fine points of the 4th way – it is a fond memory of interesting engaged young people. But. . .’

In my decades of FoF there were very few opportunities to lead a meeting; maybe about 4 – 6 times. These were asked of me by center directors in outlying centers. Each time the subject was ‘conscience’ as it is used along the Fourth Way. Introduction for the topic, and periodically through the meeting, what Ouspensky wrote about it would be read. At little, or no, other times was this a topic at a meeting I attended – outlying center or otherwise. I attended at least 2 meetings a week, wherever I lived, for almost my entire stay. That would be around 3,000 meetings. That would be 0.1 – 0.2% of the meetings I attended brought up the subject of conscience. My conclusion: This must be the frequency with which FoF members are even aware that conscience exists.

– – – – – –

129. nigel harris price:

“Consciousness is not functions”

Remember this at various other points on this blog where people bring up the supernatural like powers, the wonderful acts, and the trappings of the scenes found around FoF places (Oh! And the so, so, refined clothing people wear) – Consciousness has nothing to do with it all. You imagine your selves, really.

– – – – – –

132. Tatyana:
‘I have a question.

Once again I was puzzled by the current FOF member’s idea and couldn’t find anything in response. The idea that doing something biologically “normal” is being a slave to a mechanical nature when being above nature seems to be more cultural and even spiritual (as a justification to RB’s sex life).

I would appreciate your elaborations on this.’

REB/FoF sees having sex as same as other functions in body called: process of elimination – a biological necessity best to get rid of. Bad, bad, lower self. Time for self-flagellation.

– – – – – –

137. Six-Weeker

‘What genuine talents does Mr Burton have?’

He is a Master Baiter.

– – – – – –

“They don’t wait, they don’t recycle, they don’t pay retail, they don’t stand in line, they don’t clean up after themselves, they don’t let other people get in front of them in traffic, and their income taxes rival great works of fiction. Illness and even death is no excuse for other people not immediately jumping up to meet their needs. They aren’t the least bit ashamed of using other people and systems for their own personal gain. They boast about how they take advantage of just about everybody.”

This is the definition of a parasite.
What’s worse than parasites? Cultisites!

171. itstwinetime - July 24, 2009

Men who lose their faith (in Xtianity, Fourthway, the church, the fof, the pope, the teacher, you name it) without a corresponding intellectual discovery tend to get real cranky, real whiney, and start writing poetry.

172. itstwinetime - July 24, 2009

Amazing (or pathetic – you be the judge): How is it that some of you fail to realize that your continued presence here only strengthens your connection to all things Burton, Fof, the blighted “cult” you so hate and fear, and to the past?

The longer and more vehemently you discuss it, with yourselves alone, and others in person, and the rest on this blog, the greater hold it has on you. Remember the word: Identification? Look it up if you’ve somehow forgotten. You will likely take the whole thing to your grave. And on your death-bed, if you make it that far, you will still want to express how that “awful FOF and awful REB ruined my life, woe is me, woe is me.”

And that includes you, mercury-boy.

173. ton - July 24, 2009

itswhinetime again… speaking of ‘faith’ discover this:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_guru_right

“Irrationality in the group’s beliefs and teachings is one of the big red flags to watch for. Another giant warning sign is the refusal to fix things that are wrong, and refusal to even admit that something is wrong. The cult will usually claim that all of its beliefs, teachings, and tenets are sacred and cannot be changed. If you find something that is wrong — even an obvious error — they will either deny it, and claim that it is right and you are wrong (“You don’t understand”), because of some explanation that often involves redefining a bunch of words, or they will rationalize the error and say that it’s all okay anyway and shouldn’t be changed, for some reason or other. They simply will not modify their beliefs to agree with the facts. It’s like the old saying, “I won’t allow my opinions to be swayed by mere facts.”

Some of the most outrageous cult tenets are statements that are unverifiable, unprovable, or unevaluable (at least, in this world)…. Obviously, these statements cannot be tested to see if they are really true or not (not without dying, that is). Some cults spin huge webs of such vague fluff, until it seems like everything anyone in the group is saying is just more of the same indefinite and unprovable nonsense. In turn, that vague, insubstantial feeling about so many things helps to make the cult members more detached from reality.

The effectiveness of a doctrine does not come from its meaning but from its certitude. No doctrine however profound and sublime will be effective unless it is presented as the embodiment of the one and only truth. It must be the one word from which all things are and all things speak. Crude absurdities, trivial nonsense and sublime truths are equally potent in readying people for self-sacrifice if they are accepted as the sole, eternal truth.

It is obvious, therefore, that in order to be effective, a doctrine must not be understood, but has to be believed in…. If a doctrine is not unintelligible, it has to be vague; and if neither unintelligible nor vague, it has to be unverifiable. One has to get to heaven or the distant future to determine the truth of an effective doctrine. When some part of a doctrine is relatively simple, there is a tendency among the faithful to complicate it and obscure it. Simple words are made pregnant with meaning and made to look like symbols in a secret message. There is thus an illiterate air about the most literate true believer. He seems to use words as if he were ignorant of their true meaning. Hence, too, his taste for quibbling, hairsplitting, and scholastic tortuousness.
The True Believer, Eric Hoffer, pages 79 to 80.

Indeed: “One has to get to Heaven or the distant future to determine the truth of an effective doctrine.” That makes it extremely difficult to prove that the phony guru is wrong.
what’s wrong with that? Where is the hole in that logic?”

It is this: “Who decides what God is saying? Who decides what is the Will of God?” in the fof it was burton, and no matter how much you polished your “spiritual wires”, you still couldn’t hear the Voice of God as well as he could…

so much for ‘faith’

174. Crouching Tiger - July 24, 2009

“Narcissistic vampires believe they are so special that the rules don’t apply to them. They expect the red carpet to be rolled out for them wherever they go, and if it isn’t, they get quite surly.
They don’t wait, they don’t recycle, they don’t pay retail, they don’t stand in line, they don’t clean up after themselves, they don’t let other people get in front of them in traffic, and their income taxes rival great works of fiction. Illness and even death is no excuse for other people not immediately jumping up to meet their needs. They aren’t the least bit ashamed of using other people and systems for their own personal gain. They boast about how they take advantage of just about everybody.”

This is one of the most apt comments on the nature of behaviour in the fellowship I have heard in a long time.

I remember once waiting with a small group of students, including RB, at an airport in Turkey. The queue was long and things were taking a lot of time. Suddenly a large proportion of students simply walked straight to the front of the queue, ignoring all those who tried to complain. They physically ignored them. They thought it was good work against ‘feminine dominance’ and negativity. Of course, in reality it was nothing more than the sociopathy in play, the narcissistic vampirism. They thought they deserved better than everyone else.

There were endless variations of the narcissistic/parasitic behaviour. When I was working professionally in a high-end sporting environment, I got a call out of the blue from a lady in the fellowship, offering her services as a sports psychologist to the team… She was quite a charismatic individual, quite close to RB, although to the best of my knowledge, her main qualification as a sports psychologist was a version of the technique of ‘being present’ learned through the fellowship!

Needless to say, the team I was involved with didn’t want to know… at which time all communication between us abruptly ceased! Basically, she was trying to use me to further her ‘status’ without any real foundation in that area of expertise. She had a kind of charm, but it was the sort that could be turned on and off like a tap if her hidden agenda wasn’t being fulfilled. It was all pretty embarrassing, and I soon regretted getting involved.

But it is typical behaviour. I lost count of the times people ‘forgot to pay’ what they owed or stole money or possessions even within the teaching house, without any visible signs of remorse. It could be best characterised as ‘dog-eat-dog’ behaviour, and somehow those who were best at it were supposed to be further up the evolutionary ladder! Remarkable.

But no-one seemed to understand the irony of being in good householder with the school (teaching payments and donations) while being in very bad householder with everyone else, including themselves! ‘Pay the school in advance, flannel everybody else’. Students were encouraged to build up huge credit card debts to go on just one more expensive trip that year. There was a complete absence of sound basic values, particularly in relation to other people and the community that surrounded them and of which they were part.

Marcus Aurelius is supposedly one of the 44 conscious beings, and yet the only quotes ever used from him were those that talked about the self. All his statements about the necessity of being a ‘good citizen’ and having a fruitful relationship to your everyday work and the community of which you’re part, were ignored – even though they are probably about 60% of MA’s ‘teaching’. Is this not what selfishness means? Narcissism – the self held apart from the actual world in which it has to set down its foot, living in a fiction of the ‘upper air’.

175. veramente - July 24, 2009

172 itswinetime
And on your death-bed, if you make it that far, you will still want to express how that “awful FOF and awful REB ruined my life, woe is me, woe is me.
———————-
Full of assumptions and lacking of empathy, you must be at the center of your Universe to speak for your shallow self.

176. DXP - July 24, 2009

171,2 istwinetime:

This is such nonsense. And you seem to have a real problem with wanting to control other people.

For one thing many HAVE had a real awakening and leaving a cult is a reflection of that.

Another thing is that whistle blowers always get this kind of crap from those who are invested in having a continuation of abuse.

I suggest it is you who has some sort of problem with ‘identification’. Yes, people remember that word and its MISUSE – trying to bludgeon others with it. But you are the one here who should be concerned since you choose to live within the confines of Robert’s little group think.

What’s your deal? You obviously do not care a bit about anyone here, so why are you here? You obviously do not want to awaken to what Robert, his self-proclaimed “system”, and fellow cult members are. You prefer self delusion…easy, sleepy, self satisfied delusion. No wonder you cannot understand those who have rejected that even if it is painful for them.

177. dragon - July 24, 2009

172. itswinegrippeAtime

Utilise ta cervelle!

but there is probably none?

Wanna hurt yourlowerself?

Ni d’Eve ni d’Adam c’est votre vie….

SANTE

178. itstwinetime - July 24, 2009

A big ol’ biker-type walks into what is apparently a wannabe gay bar and says, “I’m going to beat the shit out of all you wimps, and babies, with all your flowery talk and meaningless dialogue!”

And, right on cue, 4 of the baby-buddies stand up and in unison go: “Hey, who’re you calling a wimp?”

Whadya think happens next?

179. itstwinetime - July 24, 2009

Regarding the biker story, and the sly man story.
Uh… do you see any… uh… connection?

180. Ames Gilbert - July 24, 2009

Itstwinetime, please don’t think I’m piling on here, I just want to do you a favor. If you take the trouble to go back through the blog, you’ll find posts by a guy called Greg Goodwin, who posted under names like ‘Graduates’. He has already said what you have said, and even more redundantly. He has done his darndest to save us from our selves as we drown under a sea of identification with the FoF and this blog. So, save your energy, one of the best saviors in the business has tried and failed. If you google ‘Greg Goodwin’ and make contact with him, I believe you will find someone who is practically a ‘twin soul’, and understands you completely. You’ll find that he uncannily mirrors every point you make, and even uses the same sort of language, and I think you’ll be very comfortable with him.

I can tell you that this Greg Goodwin fellow is as direct and uncompromising as you are, and probably has his lawyers investigating you, even as I write. You should know that these points of view about identification with the FoF and the blog are his sole copyright material, and that he may very well pursue legal actions against you for infringement. For example, I know he holds very dear the phrase, “Mercury boy”, which he patented nearly three years ago. A word to the wise!

181. itstwinetime - July 24, 2009

180. Ames Gilbert – July 24, 2009

You’re the resident comic around here, eh?
Funny stuff.

As for mercury boy, that’s what people called him back in the early seventies – pre goodwin – because he was the “classic prototype”. Mystery solved, funny man.

182. Tatyana - July 24, 2009

I looked up the info about JFBD today. Wow.
If one wants to attend all events on the 10 days schedule and sit at Robert’s table the cost is $1500 or work 20 hours and pay $290! Plus the ballet at the tennis court. (People usually go for both performances.)
The cheapest way to attend the events as ‘general public’ standing at the meetings and dining at the small tables with some “friends” by paying $90 and working 20 hours.

5 meetings, 8 dinners, 4 breakfasts, 1 reception, 2 lunches where you can’t eat that much and must listen to a lot of ‘same all same all’.

But ofcourzzz (french accent)… the energy, the hydrogens, the love, the higher centers!

It must be really difficult to organize all this. Who organizes it? Not Robert. It must have some value on the scale of performance from the point of view of a show-business and amusement entertainment. It also must of have a very good taste and the level. How in the world it is done??? Who are those people? How can they afford all this?

It will happen even if now nobody still knows how many people are attending. Who is going to help with the set-up and restoration. There will be people helping to dress the dancers, hosts for the guests, servers and dish washers, endless crowd of diners, performers, and lecturers, lunch hosts and cooks, tones of volunteers! Wow! And nobody is going to earn any money but will spend a lot and all the money will go to RB.

Are they turning into some amazing discipline dancers, like ballerinas? Is there a training there of some sort or just a pressure does it? Or a miracle? Someone came up with this schedule. Someone designed it, developed a payment system. Its working!

183. nigel harris price - July 24, 2009

This ‘itstwinetime’ is something we have to deal with on the blog as the process of elimination. Trouble is, he’s also the asshole involved in the process. Shall we call him ‘rear-end twiney’?…..Nigel.

184. nigel harris price - July 24, 2009

‘On no Work of Words’ by Dylan Marlais Thomas

On no work of words now for three lean months in the bloody
Belly of the rich year and the big purse of my body
I BITTERLY TAKE TO TASK MY POVERTY AND CRAFT:

To take to give is all, return what is hungrily given
Puffing the pounds of manna up through the dew to heaven,
The lovely GIFT OF THE GAB bangs back on a blind shaft.

To lift to leave from the treasures of man is pleasing death
That will rake at last all currencies of the marked breath
And count the TAKEN, FORSAKEN MYSTERIES IN A BAD DARK.

TO SURRENDER NOW IS TO PAY THE EXPENSIVE OGRE TWICE.
Ancient woods of my blood, dash down to the nuts of the seas
IF I TAKE TO BURN OR RETURN THIS WORLD WHICH IS EACH MAN’S WORK.

185. brucelevy - July 24, 2009

181. itstwinetime

I remember being called a few of things pertaining to mercury, but I don’t remember ever being called “mercury boy” though it wouldn’t have bothered me at the time. And I don’t think it was something that would have been said behind my back, as others knew it wouldn’t have bothered me. I say this simply to make the point that once again you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. But it’s clear that that would never stop you anyway.

186. Tatyana - July 24, 2009

I stumbled on new book of Girard. It gave me a little bit of a headache, but I understood a few things. I am glad this book came at the same time as I found this info on cults and thought-reform. Thank you, Jomo!

I read about inner circle – first chapter. The point he was making is that the inner circle is not physically connected to Robert Burton, but made of those who can understand themselves and their position in order to receive His direct guidance without filtering it through one’s formatory apparatus and false personality. They are the ones who do not come up with their own ideas and opinions. Those who are more awake can be of more help to the school and the school is always helpful to one’s aim of awakening.

Here is enough information already for applying anti-brainwashing technics. Otherwise one can find oneself marching towards Galleria to wash dishes…

“Members are told to believe what the leader tells them, rather than trust their own common sense, their own thinking, and their own experiences. Members are told that the leader sees another, higher, reality which they cannot see. Doubts about the leader or his teachings are considered a sure sign of moral failure in the follower.

That behavior is reinforced by the standard cult attitude that newcomers cannot think right — that newcomers suffer from mental, moral, or spiritual shortcomings that prevent them from seeing clearly or exercising good judgement, so of course the cult is right about everything and the newcomer is wrong.”

187. X-ray - July 25, 2009

172. itstwinetime – July 24, 2009
‘And on your death-bed, if you make it that far, you will still want to express how that “awful FOF and awful REB ruined my life, woe is me, woe is me.’

Yes, and even after death, I’ll speak about ‘conscious’ sucker out loud, whether will I be in heaven or in hell.

186. Tatyana – July 24, 2009
‘The point he was making is that the inner circle is not physically connected to Robert Burton, but made of those who can understand themselves and their position in order to receive His direct guidance without filtering it through one’s formatory apparatus and false personality. They are the ones who do not come up with their own ideas and opinions. Those who are more awake can be of more help to the school and the school is always helpful to one’s aim of awakening.’

Either he is sick, or liar. In any case it’s pretty bad.

188. Ellen - July 25, 2009

Tatyana,
What is the title of Girard’s new book? Is it generally available? Or is is more of a pamphlet that is only available within the Fellowship?

I appreciated your juxtapositions, was the latter quotation from the Guru Papers?

189. Jomo Piñata - July 25, 2009

Ellen, the latter quotation is from this:

http://bit.ly/J9hWb

190. Mikey - July 25, 2009

I watched the movie ‘Sleepers’ with Robert DeNiro, Dustin Hoffman & Brad Pitt, again last night. This time I saw it as being very allegorical to the FoF situation at hand.
One line in particular stuck with me (and for some reason I thought of Nigel): “In the courtroom justice is blind, but out here the bitch got eyes.” (In the FoF vs. Out the FoF)
Not to spoil it for you, but payback is a mother.

191. X-ray - July 25, 2009

189. Jomo Piñata – July 25, 2009

http://bit.ly/J9hWb

A true layout of the cult. Thank you Jomo.
It should be read in all prospective meetings.

192. Ames Gilbert - July 25, 2009

Ulysses Books, which appears to be solely dedicated to publishing books by Girard Haven and a couple of other members of the Fellowship of Friends, lists the following:
“Thoughts”–1995, “Notes from a Conscious Teaching”–1997, “Creating a Soul”–1999, 10 Years of Daily Cards–1999, “The Prize is Eternity”–2002, and “Dear Friend”–undated.

The mind boggles at the amount of imagination, self–deception, Burton–worship and muddled logic that is contained in these books… Just ponder on the titles, and think of the framing and the unverifiable assumptions put forward before even opening the covers! Think of all the work Girard has done to provide intellectual cover for Burton’s random and inane pontifications over nearly four decades!

I made some comments on just one passage from “Creating a Soul” on page 41 #108 of this blog. This passage is a great summary of Haven’s ‘level of being’, and confirms that, like his master, he knows little or nothing of consciousness, conscience, individuation or the necessity of graduation from the ‘school’. On the contrary, it helps Burton’s followers fall more thoroughly asleep as they devote themselves to gathering points under their particular system of spiritual materialism.

193. nigel harris price - July 25, 2009

And, if the forebodings of Ames and others are not enough, I would advise all current and ex-members to surmise the follwing…..Nigel.

“If there arise among you a prophet, or dreamer of dreams, and give thee a sign or wonder,
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Thou shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God proveth you, to prove whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because HE HATH SPOKEN TO TURN YOU AWAY…..”

194. James Mclemore - July 25, 2009

from 193

“for the Lord your God proveth you”
“Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him”

There is perhaps an inner meaning to these things, I don’t know. But IMO, if taken literally, these are examples of memes that can cause fundamentalism and cults. It makes it sound as if we are tested by some sort of puppet master, and it seems somehow odd to ‘fear’ the supposed Loving Force that brought us into being. And then when it is followed up with “shall be put to death”, it just becomes even more strange. It sounds like the same sort of threats that Burton uses with his C influence.

195. WhaleRider - July 26, 2009

“Don’t act like the hypocrite who thinks he can conceal his wiles by loudly quoting the Koran.”

~Hafiz, the Iranian Poet, whose simple message opens the powerful film, “The Stoning of Soraya M.” the true story of what happens when criminals become religious leaders.

196. nigel harris price - July 26, 2009

194 James Mclemore

Yes, I admit it could be a bit Jehovah’s Witnesses-ish…..Nigel.

197. elena - July 26, 2009

Ames,

Mr. Haven has amazingly perfected the art of brainwashing. The saddest thing is that he perfected it on himself! It is not only in his books in which in every sentence could be shown the deception, it is in his every word and act. He does not know how much perversion has taken power over him nor do any of them. They sincerely believe they are honest people even though they’ve turned upside down and backwards the meaning of honesty to justify their world.

If these people could help themselves they would but they’ve lost that capacity. If one really looks at the problem, it’s possible to realize that man, men, human beings today, left to their own devices and without permanent reference to society and human standards, turn the concepts of reality to fit their situation. We generalize concepts about how the world is to justify the particularities of our individuality. The brainwashing or the dogma in the formatory apparatus is designed to justify the social forms but interestingly enough functions in other areas of the human being withdraw and tend to atrophy. Cult members live 95% of their lives from the formatory apparatus. This is what makes leaving such a painful experience: long term members in most cases will have lost the natural balance and connection between the different centers. They leave intellectually, physically and emotionally disfigured. Hence the importance of getting help when one finally leaves.

A dogmatic fundamentalist is precisely someone who has perfected the dogma in the formatory apparatus or mechanical part of the brain and lost the connection with his emotional and intellectual centre and their connection. As they lose that connection, “moral” is only what protects the cult leader and the cult, the dictator in political spheres or the cappo in the mafia and to do so, any crime is justified. It expresses itself in the increasing lack of human cohesion or consideration between the masses of indiscriminate members. Raping young men through sophisticated forms of organized crime is what Fellowship of Friends members have been doing for decades. This is accepted as NORMAL by each and every member, including the raped ones! It’s difficult to understand how that happens and to be able to do so it’s necessary to observe the complexity of human interactions. Finding boys for Robert, facilitating Robert’s encounter with them, brain-washing those who question it and vetoing anyone who opposes it, is the NORM in the Fellowship Cult.

Weaknesses in particular individuals in power turn the whole outlook of the community into what justifies their personal inclinations. One of the problems is that those weaknesses in the personal arena become the model for the rest of the members and the norm in the cult life. The more they hammer an idea, the more true it becomes to them. Repetition accomplishes the aim. It’s clear that in the Phallusheep they all want more sexual freedom, which is what was NEVER talked about: Robert with his boys, the gay men with Robert’s boys and the heterosexuals with their porn and the longing for more sex with the many options. Also interesting that they “disconnected” their sexuality into the lower self which could continue doing as it pleased while their so called “higher self” could fly on clouds with divinities. The price of this disconnectedness to the individual is enormous but to the society that conforms it is even greater. The numbness with which these individuals experience their own sexuality, turns into the rigidity and frigidity of all of the member’s behavior, the dogma materializes itself in the lack of spontaneity, life and love between the members: the lack of culture. It’s “culture” or a free flow of “LIFE” between the members of a society what keeps the particular individuals in “shape”. The dogmatized, conditioned behaviour, turns against the individual and the malady explodes within the individuals while the society maintains the established form or status quo completely untouched so that the myth can continue. The victims, not finding a social outlet, explode from inside and are blamed by the rest of the members as being “unfit” for the challenge. Illnesses in cults must be strongly connected to the lifelessness of the cult, the lack of “feedback” that conditions the member to turn over and over his own desperate self. The disconnectedness between centres, the lack of balance and increased self-consciousness and insecurity together with the I that has been “displaced” by idolatry to the guru render the member helpless, hopeless and full of guilt.

The conditioning of behavior through controlled forms of movement, alchemy and self expression in the Phallusheep is designed to present an image of an ideal world to buffer the lifelessness of the cult. Pretty clothes and surroundings give the message of “everything is O.K.” so that the formatory apparatus can justify its unquestioning acceptance. It is very important for the members to keep these idealized image of the world they are living in.

It’s interesting how the repressive conditions of cult life increase the expression of the sexual outlet in private. Even more interesting the connection of sexuality with very particular social forms. If nothing else, at least cults will make the details of this connection even more obvious.

As someone said, if I work more at it, I’ll manage to make it shorter! Thank you for the space and time.

198. X-ray - July 26, 2009

Girard’s intellectual nonsense always looked a little better than Burton’s bullshit. His salary should be raised and his title changed to a man # 6.25, since he kept so many students ‘in’ for so long.

199. nigel harris price - July 26, 2009

Partly to follow on from Elena, in post #197…..

The Money Justification…..

At the beginning of my ‘term’ in the Foul-up-ship, it always seemed odd to me how Robert and his close minions would give time and attention to those students who were financial ‘high-rollers’. They were told how their ‘evolution’ would be accelerated by donating extra money to ‘octaves’ and by buying REB more and more fancy trinkets. Then there were those students who did not have a ‘career’ in front of them and REB would say – “Become a computer programmer, dear”. The justification behind this one was that, after their six-months or so training, they would have a high salary and be able to ‘wizz’ around the globe, supporting centres. Then there would be the emotionally charged letters from Helga or someone at Renaissance (as it was then) saying how good it would be for our evolution if we donated a ‘whacking great wad’ of money for a new carpet at the lodge, or something like that. In the end, since I was attempting to run my own business, and being in debt, I became heartily sick of all the money required by the Dollarship and even, in a way, saw it as the ‘enemy’ towards my own aims. Eventually, both business and physical/financial connection to the FOF came to an end…..

BUT NOT THE GUILT!!!!!…..Nigel.

200. Daily Cardiac - July 26, 2009

Crouching Tiger 174:

“But it is typical behaviour. I lost count of the times people ‘forgot to pay’ what they owed or stole money or possessions even within the teaching house, without any visible signs of remorse. It could be best characterised as ‘dog-eat-dog’ behaviour, and somehow those who were best at it were supposed to be further up the evolutionary ladder! Remarkable.”

Just for the record, 85% or so of the individuals you describe above are still in your camp, as former members of the FoF.

201. nigel harris price - July 26, 2009

200 Fancy Pontiac

“Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone” (The Big Y’un)…..Nigel

202. nigel harris price - July 26, 2009

This is part of the ‘spiel’ that is in the “Pathway to Presence” site. It somewhat gives weight to the fact that, as Gurdjieff stated “You can do what you like as long as you remember yourselves”. So REB ‘remembers himself’ while sucking on a young man’s phallus? If that ain’t related to what he would call the ‘lower self’, I don’t know what is…..Nigel

“The quest to realize one’s higher possibilities through the practice of presence is as old as humanity. It is the aim of all esoteric teachings. “Pathway to Presence” is created by the Fellowship of Friends, an esoteric school which has its roots in the Fourth Way tradition, and utilizes the esoteric knowledge of many different cultures, religions and teachings. Our emphasis is on working with practical methods to increase presence.”

P.S. My friend, George, in Pacifica, said that the Fellowship was ‘as spiritual as a bucket of vomit’.

203. veramente - July 26, 2009

200 DC
Just for the record, 85% or so of the individuals you describe above are still in your camp, as former members of the FoF.
————————————
Where the heck did you get this figure from?
You are in the CAMP buddy! life is an ocean and you live in a tiny self centered dot.

204. Crouching Tiger - July 26, 2009

Daily Cardiac.

I don’t know where you get your numbers from!

The point is simply, that the behaviour is part of the program, it is bred by it. So if indeed 85% left, they would just be replaced by others learning to behave the same way…

Whatever the fellowship’s, or Burton’s understanding of self-remembering may be, it is clearly not one that disallows this kind of behaviour. That is why RB himself believes that it is quite possible [and desirable] for him to indulge himself in the various ways that he does indulge himself.

The end result is this remarkable, disastrous double effect where every ‘bathing in finer hydrogens’ seems to be balanced out by some kind of demonic counter-reaction of the dog-eat-dog variety – whether it’s a teacher kicking a terrified boy awake to have sex with him in a morning, or someone jumping to the top of the queue regardless of all pleas, or people creating a pretense of friendship in order to get what they really want…

The common factor is a lack of sincerity. Either an abuse of the teacher-student relationship, or the real notion of friendship, or the social rules that enable people to function together harmoniously. One thing is shown, another different thing is enacted.

The only question you need to ask yourself is : is this the kind of self-remembering [if we have to call it that] that I want, one that leads to sometimes to angelic, at others to demonic outcomes? Does it make sense to call this ‘self-remembering’ at all?

The most fundamental sense of self-remembering is that of body, mind and feelings working together to produce a harmonious outcome in the world. A harmonious footprint. Whatever is really meant comes to the surface of the being unimpeded, and quite lucidly. Men like Jesus created that sense of harmony and simplicity wherever he went, and not just in his own followers. If you create a much more ambiguous effect, it is mixed footprint. People will not trust you because they sense your motives are not pure. Hence the Blog.

205. harryhindsight - July 26, 2009

Daily Cardigan,

Interesting Math. How do you plan to weed out the remaining 15%?
Will the, “school” be purified then?

Harry.

206. Panoritsa - July 26, 2009

204 Crouching Tiger-Thank you for this post.

Lack of sincerity is one of the characteristics of the FOF. Second accounts and living through hearsay is another one. However, DC’s numbers and accusations can also be seen in the light of the brainwashing one receives daily in the FOF. “Us and them” breeds judgment, supports seeing life in terms of “right and wrong”, “good and evil”, “lower and higher”, alienates one from oneself, one’s inner strength and connection with one’s God (or whatever name or description you want to insert here…), and makes one an awkward supporter of a very poor “spiritual” situation…

Some thousands of people went through the experience of the FOF. Each one is doing something with it. Some thousand stay in the enclosed walls…They probably need to be protected by what? Their own strength? their creativity? their own unique way of feeling, sensing, thinking, touching, dreaming???? They may still need to recognize the difference between vicarious experiences and direct witnessing.

Burton’s way of communicating is based on creating “winners” and “losers”, it requires one to look outside themselves to know who one is and how one is doing…This is not strength.

How important is to act with integrity, to be spontaneous and original? Corruption breeds corruption. The “inner circle” of the FOF is toxic. Controlled smiles, rented tuxedos, formal attire and pretty flowers blended with music and fountains cannot take away the sadness in one’s soul…

207. elena - July 26, 2009

Correction:

….someone who has perfected the dogma in the formatory apparatus or mechanical part of the brain….

or mechanical part of the intellectual centre…

208. elena - July 26, 2009

Tatyana 182: “Are they turning into some amazing discipline dancers, like ballerinas? Is there a training there of some sort or just a pressure does it? Or a miracle? Someone came up with this schedule. Someone designed it, developed a payment system. Its working!”

Is it really surprising that cults work? That after centuries of unquestioned surrender to the status quo, man would come to put it together and make a shrine out of giving his own self up? For what else are cults but the voluntary sacrifice of the lambs?

Man had already accepted the condition of unconditional surrender when he was too young to confront parents and teachers and too needy to confront the boss or the military, or too ignorant to confront the government.
While in regular society this unconditional surrender to the status quo is accepted with fatal destined disposition, in the cult it is taken up with indiscriminate will. The members aim to free themselves from themselves and unconditional surrender is conceived as a gift of love: the ultimate gift: my self in flesh and blood: in body and soul.

In a circle above, this complete surrender is what in Systems is knows as “dying”. Cults use this idea of the necessity of dying, which is a legitimate step in a conscious process, to accelerate the unconditional surrender of the members to the guru’s will. “Giving up will, your will to the guru’s will”.

The organization must look “organized” to be successful in the implementation of its doctrine. The more “organized” it is, the less need for people to think, feel or act spontaneously. The acceptance of the guru’s will is manifest in the acceptance of the programmed activities of every day life. Everything IS programmed so that no one can act out of his or her own free will. It must look good and pretty so that who ever reacts against it can be questioned for turning against what is good and beautiful that the majority has worked for. The questioning of the guru is taken up as an offence against the members who have materialized the guru’s will. The questioner becomes the black sheep from simply not dressing as the code demands.

Behind all these forms are real human impulses. The disassociation between the individual and the community in the city, in our times, has dislocated the central connection between man as a human being and man as a social being. Individual freedom is conceived as freedom from society and the generalized attitude is that “the least people in my way” the better life is. In the cult, this attitude is taken to its climax: members thrive for individual consciousness without consideration of others increasingly disassociating from objective social responsibility which is replaced by the guru’s social structure. Morality is conditioned by the guru’s subjectivity. In the PHALLUSHEEP of Friends, it is moral to rape young men and justify it with quotes from Abraham Lincoln, Marcus Aurelius and 43 other great men including Rumi!. It is moral to economically, physically, emotionally and intellectually exploit the unconditional surrender of naïve men and women who offer themselves to the development of an Arc of Culture for mankind. It is moral for the guru to spend millions on clothes while members struggle to find enough to support a sick old member. Morality was killed by Feminine Dominance in the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton’s affeminated dominance imposed its own morality. There is definitely MORALITY in the Phallusheep of Friends, it just acts against each and every one of the members.

It is not LIFE what continues to WORK in the Fellowship, it is a slow sucking out of life what continues to work successfully while we watch still numbed by generations of non-existence convinced that allowing others to slowly sacrifice themselves to a gang of narcissistic sociopaths is an act of respect to their freedom. We are as upside down and backwards as they are, supporting the rape and the exploitation with the lack of clarity in our own principles.

209. DXP - July 26, 2009

200 DC,

Interesting point. Lets see how this goes….. of the indeterminate number of people who acted in a way that takes advantage of a corrupt system, 85% of them are awakened by their consciences and leave the corrupt group. The remaining 15% apparently do not respond to their consciences, intellectualize and talking themselves out of their real awakened inner sight. Maybe their consciences are weak and easily oppressed. Maybe their consciences have been so assaulted they have gone dormant. What a terrible thing! Pity for you. But you turn that around and say “see you did bad too” (how so very Camus of you – La Chute). It may be impossible for you to respond to your conscience but for others the response is “yes I did. I regret it. I’m ashamed of myself in those ways, and I will follow my true inner voice and change” ! It seems that your conscience is so damaged and gone that you cannot even recognize it in others. Pity for you.

210. WhaleRider - July 26, 2009

elena:
“A dogmatic fundamentalist is precisely someone who has perfected the dogma in the formatory apparatus or mechanical part of the brain (intellectual center) and lost the connection with his emotional and intellectual centre and their connection.”

I couldn’t agree with you more.

IMO, fundamentalism breeds a form of sociopathic behavior in dealing with “non-believers” or in the FOF’s case, those who “lack valuation”, projecting onto others what the “believers” are unable to accept about themselves.

I wonder, however, if part of the disconnectedness inherent in the FOF cult indoctrination comes from describing our psyche as separate “centres”?…as in, “my emotional or intellectual center this or that” vs. “this how I feel or what I think”.

IMO, the FOF’s style of Fourth Way Taliban “work language” disenables a person from ever trusting or owning their feelings or thoughts, thus making them vulnerable for manipulation by the cult authority figures to whom they have surrendered themselves.

The same is true with polarizing oneself into “higher/lower” or fragmenting oneself into the “many I’s”.

Since you are one of the most prolific contributors here, I do wish to congratulate you in your willingness to step outside the language frames of “school, teacher, and student”. IMO, languauge reflects thinking and these changes are a necessary step in becoming a whole empowered person again.

I have Ames to thank for helping me step out of the “Robert” frame.

211. elena - July 26, 2009

Whalerider: I wonder, however, if part of the disconnectedness inherent in the FOF cult indoctrination comes from describing our psyche as separate “centres”?…as in, “my emotional or intellectual center this or that” vs. “this how I feel or what I think”.

Separating the centres as in instinctive, moving, emotional and intellectual comes from the System and it’s a great tool towards understanding the complexity of the human being and its world.
Each centre works with a realm of its own and living that connection to the outside world with clarity would help avoid a great deal of the misunderstandings we are suffering today.

Understanding that the effectiveness of the cult comes from the everyday practice of submission much more than from the theoretical indoctrination is a step towards understanding the difference between will in the moving instinctive centre and reason in the intellectual centre. Many of us might have thought that we had been able to keep ourselves independent from Robert in our I and in our thinking but in as much as we submitted to the forms physically and instinctively, we surrendered enough to get hooked in a much more pervasive way than we wanted or realized. The facts have a great deal more weight than the intentions which is why each and every member of the Fellowship today must buffer the facts and stay in imagination about what is actually happening.

Off to Sunday! Have a good day!

212. sallymcnally - July 26, 2009

[audio src="http://s3.amazonaws.com/learnremoteviewing/matrix.mp3" /]

cut and paste for anyone interested.

213. Jomo Piñata - July 26, 2009

Tiger/174:

“But it is typical behaviour. I lost count of the times people ‘forgot to pay’ what they owed or stole money or possessions even within the teaching house, without any visible signs of remorse.”

The bulk of the Rose Meissen porcelain collection of plates and cups (a collection which served a stint as Fellowship narcissistic supply before it was supplanted by oil paintings and Ming furniture) had been loaned to Robert by a Fellowship member, who had received it through inheritance. Some time before he left FOF the member told Robert he wanted his Meissen back. Robert said no, telling him that C influence had indicated that C influence wished the Meissen to belong not to him, but to the Fellowship. The member was not able to recover his collection of Meissen.

214. Jomo Piñata - July 26, 2009

“In this way, we will develop the nucleus of a distinctive collection. It will look very strange at the time, but in the aftermath it will be seen as a stroke of genius.”

215. elena - July 27, 2009

Colourful fireworks outside
I wash dishes
One after another
Carefully, joyfully
My brother is here
After forty years…
My mother is near
So good to be home.

216. elena - July 27, 2009

23 years ago today
could’ve been a lifetime
no death but rebirth

Each life is lived for the liver!!!
Perhaps that’s why we need so much liver to live it!
and when anyone dies I know they took the whole of it with them,
nothing lost, all is gain.

Souls live like plants grow
searching out into space
where the sun warms
from within
from without
light meets light

and every once in a while
a flower, some fruit,
a guest
to taste
one’s scent.

So love
So long

217. elena - July 27, 2009

Dialogue:

So how’s your husband?
He’s good, he’s in China!
China?
Did he ever marry again?
No, he was even more gay than I!
I see, did you know when you married him?
I did but I was so in love I didn’t think it mattered!
If only I’d known how bisexual I was!
So what are you now?
A virgin!

218. Daily Cardiac - July 27, 2009

Crouching Tiger – 174/204:

“The point is simply, that the behavior is part of the program, it is bred by it. So if indeed 85% left, they would just be replaced by others learning to behave the same way…”

We are in agreement that the point is simple. My point was simply this: if you start disparaging the behavior of people in the FoF, especially after the passage of several years, then you should be cognizant of the fact that most of the people you refer to are no longer members, but ex members who came and stayed a while, behaved badly at times, and left. Some of those individuals may still be behaving badly for all we know.

To say that the behavior you described in #174 in the teaching house setting is somehow nurtured or promoted by the FoF is false. People are people. Individuals are responsible for their actions and understandings. Is a FoF representative supposed to be monitoring worldwide teaching houses 24/7 to see if people are being respectful of others?

I’ve lived in several teaching houses. I’ve gone to the fridge and found that my intended dinner for that night was consumed by a house mate. I did not blame the FoF for that act. In my best response to that situation I only hoped that whoever consumed the dinner enjoyed it as much as I would have.

Sometimes I concluded that someone else needed it more than I needed it. There were times I ran out of bread and took my house mate’s. Some of the time I replaced it and sometimes I didn’t.

I’ve left belongings at teaching houses only to come back a few months later to find them gone and unaccounted for. What I concluded was that people are people. It’s not an FoF thing but a people thing. On the other hand I’ve been in teaching houses where the occupants got together and painted the entire house to get the rent lowered.

The concept behind teaching houses was and is one of sharing, and camaraderie. It’s also about living in an environment one could not afford alone but together people could live above their means.

When people abuse those ideals they do it as individuals acting on their own understanding, or lack of understanding; it has little to do with the FoF.

As far as cutting into queues; some of those acts belonged to valid exercises which you probably don’t buy into. But they also have been abused at times, and also used wisely at times.

Of course there is no point arguing the validity of going against FD to anyone who does not even believe in its existence.

219. James Mclemore - July 27, 2009

Daily Cardiac – you said……

“Of course there is no point arguing the validity of going against FD to anyone who does not even believe in its existence.”

That there are inclinations and illusory yet quite fearful emotional frameworks that we were given as children through parents and the culture, and that we would function more freely without, may certainly be true. But have you not noticed that no matter what they are, they are not actually real, and if you elect a ‘you’ who is going to try to struggle against them, or as you termed it “going against FD”, you only tend to reify or make something which was illusory and abstract into something that will then appear to become concrete. You are making what ‘you’ think ‘you’ are struggling against even stronger; if that is possible with something that looks to have no true independent existence. It is not your fault. This thing you think you are struggling against was pointed out to you by your leader who also told you that it needed to be overcome. You just bought into it. As far as involving those people whom you have already deemed ‘just life machines’ in your childish exercises, well that is just being a jerk, no matter how esoteric you try to make it sound, no matter what ‘feature’ some ‘chosen’ disciple is ‘working on’.
The error, in my little ol’ humble opinion, appears to come indirectly from the same error that the fof seems to induce in its participants in regards to ‘self-observation’, and ‘divided attention’, and of course ‘self-remembering’. I know little about your relatively new ‘sequence’ thing, but I suspect the same error is embedded in that also. I think you have created a circle with a certain kind of thinking. You might wish to recheck what you are using for points of reference in your observations. This circular thinking is very much like the yezidi circle, and very much like the old Christian circle (which you probably think you have evolved far beyond) where people struggle against their ‘sins’. It is a game I don’t think you can win. The only good news is that it will keep you busy and perhaps not noticing what is going on around you and not fully considering just why it is you are in an organization led by a very, very strange and sick man, and struggling against these demons you have now made concrete and that you call FD and the Lower Self, and the King of Clubs.

220. GotoGo - July 27, 2009

Regarding “narcissistic vampires”, I recently read the following books:
1. The Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout
2. The Narcissistic Family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman & Robert M. Pressman
3. Trapped in The Mirror by Elan Goulomb
4. Unholy Hungers by Barbara Hort
, which are another big ‘eye openings’ for me.
I now understand more clearly what was/is going on around Robert and students in FOF (I would add ex-students as well and more widely in the World).
I wish we could have studied these “pathological factors” in FOF.

BTW I am Tsuyoshi, a Japanese ex-student left on March 15th, 2008.
Many thanks to this blog for the 1st big ‘eye openings’ that occurred on 2007 early spring.

221. Yesri Baba - July 27, 2009

“What I concluded was that people are people. It’s not an FoF thing but a people thing.”

see, that’s the thing. The fof is a people thing. A fucked up people thing.
How does one decide who’s item or who’s food to take? Which people does one share and have camaraderie with and which do you cut in front of?
People who are trying to become ‘more than people’ using ‘exercises’ and ideologies (i.e. feminine dominance) given from someone who’s parasitic life is so obviously sub human?

Oh I forgot-

“…the inability to hold in one’s consciousness that Burton is an enlightened teacher, a fiendish villain, a con-man, fool and a pervert. He is all these things and never has or will apologize for it. You might call it sociopathic or narcissistic — that’s fine I don’t personally trust the psychologists any more than the gurus — but the guy has balls,..”

maybe you should continue following butthole Bob down that slippery fucking slope- have a nice slide!

——————-

swinetime

what happens next is a bigger biker comes and kicks his ass. you punkass
little fucker.

222. ton - July 27, 2009

“Those who leave a cult… immediately become enemies and scapegoats and ostracised pariahs, and contact with them is… forbidden. Defectors from the cult are viewed as very dangerous enemies because they may encourage more members to leave (by saying true and sensible things about the cult). Those who quit the cult become the ultimate outsiders.

Another important corollary to Devaluing the Outsider is the devaluation of any information that comes from people outside of the cult. Cult members often refuse to listen to or even consider any independent sources of information that criticize the cult or its leader or its doctrines or practices. The information is automatically considered invalid just because it comes from someone outside of the cult…

The cult wants your life. Some cults want all of your money; some want all of your time; most all of them want all of your heart, mind, and soul.”

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_guru_right

223. Jomo Piñata - July 27, 2009

Brother Daily Cardiac’s pitch is, Don’t blame the school for what the students did. Most of them aren’t students anymore.

But remember, the pitch at the time was, Put yourself under the influence of the esoteric school.

And the influence of the esoteric school included things like “intentional insincerity.” Meaning it’s ok to lie to someone. About things like whether he’ll ever get his Meissen porcelain back.

Because, after all, he’s going to be an ex-student after he leaves. As is almost everyone in the Fellowship. It’s ok to lie to all of them. The machine is not real. It is friction for them to work with, those lies. They will learn to separate, and confusion is a high state. The important thing is the state that gets created.

Anybody remember that riff? It justifies everything. Including atrocious behavior that repudiates civilized norms. THAT’s the “influence of the esoteric school.” THAT’s the influence of the sociopath.

224. Mikey - July 27, 2009

One of these days, dear Bobby, you’re going to fuck (with) the wrong psychopath, or maybe you already have.

225. WhaleRider - July 27, 2009

Jomo:
“…he’s going to be an ex-student after he leaves. As is almost everyone in the Fellowship. It’s ok to lie to all of them. The machine is not real. It is friction for them to work with those lies. They will learn to separate, and confusion is a high state. The important thing is the state that gets created.”

IMO, the above is a brilliant example of sociopathic thinking.

The person displaying sociopathatic/psychopathic behaviors, unfettered by conscience is motivated by the “rush” of breaking taboos, rules, or laws. That is their quest…the next rush. I’d say that the concept of “Feminine Dominance” is the keystone for Burton’s delusional system which he uses to justify his predatory sex addiction..

Mikey:
IMO, no self-respecting psychopath would ever join a cult and submit to a cult leader. They would tend to want to start one with themselves at its center. An undercover IRS, INS, or FBI agent is another story…

226. elena - July 27, 2009

Daily Cardiac: “To say that the behavior you described in #174 in the teaching house setting is somehow nurtured or promoted by the FoF is false. People are people. Individuals are responsible for their actions and understandings. Is a FoF representative supposed to be monitoring worldwide teaching houses 24/7 to see if people are being respectful of others?”

I tend to agree with you: telling people to steal other people’s things wasn’t an FOF “thing”. Robert’s thing was to steal things himsefl and tell us:

that we had to surrender our will, our body and our belongings to build the Arc for humanity but in practice we became pimps, he raped the boys and the money went into sophisticating the brothel.

That the boys had to let him fuck them inside out because he was an Angel.

That they had to let him fuck them inside out because influence C wanted it

That they had to obey him because he was both influence C and a Conscious human being.

That people were not even men number four to be worthy of hearing their opinions

That everything people thought and felt were “I”s that they needed to shed

That they needed to die to themselves

That families and life people were dead

That six billion people on the planet were sleep and that Robert Burton was the only conscious being on Earth

That we had to pay six times what anything cost to build the Arc then watch Robert and the Barbies modelling their new clothes immediately after the Auctions!!!

By the time the absurdity of the conditions became obvious most of the members were too invested to understand the dissonances. That is what being brainwashed means: that you can no longer react to common sense or reason. Like an addict, members need to keep feeding on the addiction.

These people need help from outside.

Daily Cardiac, you sick pimp, incarnation of everything evil in the world, pumping people’s heart out with lies, why don’t you answer to these issues? Is your little brain too split to perceive the questions? Did Daddy Robert suck your brains out already and named you the second conscious being on the planet and pays you to turn reason against people, kill feelings and live on sex without love like he does? Do you get off on yourself and pray that someone penetrates the numbness that your life has become? Do you come and write here with the hope that someone will cross the sickness of your mind and free you from the thick crust of reason without life that you’ve built on your feeble mind or formatory apparatus?

You sick sociopath, go back to your cult where people don’t question you protected by your abuse of authority. In the Public Square everyone is responsible, there is no freedom to abuse the forum as you like, to manipulate it to your convenience, to take a stand like any other human being and not behave like one.

Hundreds of questions have been posed to you: what makes you think that freedom here is about not answering them? About avoiding the issues as you like? That you can go about the world abusing everything and everyone and you’ll never be asked to respond?
You’re a sick man Daily Cardiac, a faithful representative of the Fellowship of Friends, a cult of narcissistic sociopaths. When I come back to the States, which will hopefully be very soon, I’ll stand outside the gates and picket with huge signs calling you what you are:

NARCISSISTIC SOCIOPATHS STOP RAPING YOUNG PEOPLE

SICK

CRAZY

LUNATICS

PIMPS

CONSCIOUSLESS CROWD OF SICKOS

HUMAN TICKS, BLOOD SUCKERS

SOUL SUCKERS

YOU BRING TO LIFE EVERYTHING THAT IS HATEFUL

YOU GIVE BIRTH TO DEATH, TO DECADENCE, TO CORRUPTION IN EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOUR MEMBERS

YOU FEEBLE BEINGS LIVING ON PEOPLE’S IDEALS AND GOOD WILL

We will continue to meet Daily Cardiac until it’s over. You will live to see it die, legally, by human beings, defending what is human. The devotion with which I supported you is the same devotion with which I will look to destroy you. I will not hurt anyone of you physically but I will do my best to destroy everything with which you are hurting people.

THERE IS NOTHING HUMAN ABOUT CULTS

SHUT THE CULT UP

SHUT THE CULT UP

SHUT THE CULT

SHUT THE CULT

SHUT CULTS

SHUT CULTS

SHUT UP

CULTS ARE INHUMAN

CULTS ARE INHUMAN

SHUT THEM UP

THEY ARE THE MODERN CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

SHUT THEM UP

227. elena - July 27, 2009

Daily Sicko,

I’ll walk down the streets of Marysville and Grass Valley and Sacramento with signs saying:

The Fellowship of Friends in Oregon House, California is a Cult:
A sophisticated concentration camp that leaves people mindless, filled with Narcissistic Sociopaths raping young people and abandoning the old.

PLEASE HELP TO SHUT THEM UP

228. Crouching Tiger - July 27, 2009

DC.

“…You should be cognizant of the fact that most of the people you refer to are no longer members, but ex members who came and stayed a while, behaved badly at times, and left. Some of those individuals may still be behaving badly for all we know.

To say that the behavior you described in #174 in the teaching house setting is somehow nurtured or promoted by the FoF is false. People are people. Individuals are responsible for their actions and understandings. Is a FoF representative supposed to be monitoring worldwide teaching houses 24/7 to see if people are being respectful of others?”

It’s difficult to understand how you come to the conclusion that most of the ‘weeds’ have been thrown out. Other than what Jomo points out – that most students are now ex-students – how could you know? The incidents I described involved people who to the best of my knowledge are still very much ‘in’…

I think it’s important to stick to the facts as we know them, rather than suppositions about what the FofF believes it’s creating in its students. People respond to their environments they live in and are shaped by them, and this is particularly true of a hothouse environment like the fellowship. People’s sense of responsibility is likewise shaped by that environment. What we can determine, in Jomo’s story about the Meissen and my own experiences and those of others here, is the likely outcomes [in terms of behaviour] in the fellowship.

The story of D. and M.’s trade in vouchers in return for sexual favours is another case in point. They were both members of the ‘inner circle’ and trusted lieutenants of RB when it happened – as close to him as anyone. The point is that they clearly felt that such action was permissible, modeled on what they had seen at first hand from their master. His own actions [which they were obviously very aware of] obviously created the environment in which they thought it was quite ‘right’, maybe even a ‘higher right’ to get what you want by any means possible, even if that involved a form of lying or deception. It is a recurrent theme of the fellowship wherever you look.

Ultimately you have to judge by results rather than what you feel may be happening to you internally. Results can be facts, or other people’s concrete experiences, or their reactions to you, or even the state of your own body – if you are sensitive enough to it.

If the results are forms of deception or lying, do you really believe that these can somehow lead you to a higher truth? You can only sustain that belief in a world which is in fact two separate worlds that don’t touch each other at any point. Nothing in the Life we are all living supports that belief. In this Life, you reap what sow.

229. elena - July 27, 2009

Daily Cardiac: “To say that the behavior you described in #174 in the teaching house setting is somehow nurtured or promoted by the FoF is false. People are people. Individuals are responsible for their actions and understandings. Is a FoF representative supposed to be monitoring worldwide teaching houses 24/7 to see if people are being respectful of others?”

I tend to agree with you: telling people to steal other people’s things wasn’t an FOF “thing”.

This is not true, I had forgotten when the Fellowship invited its members to get as much as they could with credit cards that they would not have to pay because California was going to sink and then filed bankruptcy so that they indeed didn’t have to pay. Even Mr. Haven did this without the slightest scruples.

230. itstwinetime - July 27, 2009

225. elena – July 27, 2009

Woman, you’re brain damaged. Get some help.
You’re more dangerous than any one in or out of the fof, including the faggot you love to hate. Get some help, woman, you’re brain damaged. Of course, YOU DO HAVE COMPANY HERE, don’t you.

There, there, it won’t be alright.

231. fofblogmoderator - July 27, 2009

220 is new

232. Panoritsa - July 27, 2009

220. GotoGo,.

Welcome and yes, very interesting points and books. The point with many FoF people is that we hardly had any experience with other groups. Many were actually proud of themselves for not being “group” oriented…

I’ve seen many of my friends healing after leaving the FOF behind them. Some of them are flourishing. But, it is good to know what brought one to the cult, what kept one there and the corruption involved.

Part of becoming more “aware”…just to use that expression…

233. elena - July 27, 2009

itstwinetime

You probably know what you’re saying because you’ve become masters at braindamaging people, we’ll see how far you get with brain damaged people like me!

234. elena - July 27, 2009

Oh and I forgot:

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

SHUT THEM UP

235. Yesri Baba - July 27, 2009

Loogit ‘ol ‘teacher boy’ not ‘identifying’. No reactions from him- no siree:

“You’re the resident comic around here, eh?
Funny stuff.”

“Of course, YOU DO HAVE COMPANY HERE, don’t you.

There, there, it won’t be alright.”

WOW! this turd has really learned to:
“Step into the future you, that is beyond the otherwise eternal “you of today” you continue waking up with every morning. Sometimes forgetting one’s “self” is not a bad idea at all, when you learn HOW to do it… once and for all.”

Always fresh and new, never reacting from a petty little perspective.
Just like Diaper Boy the freedom from the cult mindset is complete.

They have become somebody!

Too bad, so sad.

236. Panoritsa - July 27, 2009

itstwinetime…

How about Soul- damaged? Heart-damaged?

It happens a lot you know…It might happen to you too…

How low can you go with using just a pseudonym? What would you do if you really had some power in your hands? Your insults are a very good example of the environmental “damage” Crouching Tiger mentions. As soon as nobody is watching, your true colours appear.

Sad…

237. Yesri Baba - July 27, 2009

228 Crouching Tiger

“If the results are forms of deception or lying, do you really believe that these can somehow lead you to a higher truth? You can only sustain that belief in a world which is in fact two separate worlds that don’t touch each other at any point. Nothing in the Life we are all living supports that belief. In this Life, you reap what sow.”

So true. There is only one world touching itself at every point. Can you feel it?

238. elena - July 27, 2009

Daily Sicko, I’m still waiting for your responses to the many questions. Did you coward out you sick fools? Did I manage to penetrate that sick side of yours that doesn’t get moved very often when people allow you to talk indefinitely without questioning you?

It’Swine time, I’m so glad you understand the situation. I don’t hide in petty clothes to tell you where you’re going, I don’t set up institutions to brainwash people but when I tell you I’ll do something you can be sure that I’ll do it as soon as I can. Keep the flow of sickness that you’re such professionals at, the time for talking is over, ACTION is what we need, just give me a little time to get there!

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

SHUT THEM UP

239. elena - July 27, 2009

CULTS are a new version of concentration camps

THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS now known as PATHWAY TO PRESENCE in Oregon House, CA is a CULT. Young men get systematically raped, old members are abandoned, parents are separated from their children and every one is abused one way or another.

Please get informed and help us help these people.

240. nigel harris price - July 27, 2009

238 elena

Last time (1 June) I was as high as you are now, I was knocking over ‘road-works’ signs, when there were no road-works (the road works perfectly well by itself, I thought) and tearing down realtors signs (money-grabbing bastards, I thought). I finally was arrested under Section 136 of the Mental Health Act, had to spend several hours in a police cell (DEFINITELY NOT A PLACE OF SAFETY FOR ME), several more hours in the Extra Care Area (another ‘joke’) of the local ‘asylum’ and then four weeks under a (shortened) Section 3 (which can last up to 6 months, at the doctors’ disgression). I am sure most of your friends here on the blog would rather have you rant in this place, than arrive in California, ‘letting rip’ at the gates of ‘Apollo’, then having yourself arrested under Section 5150 (or worse) of the California Mental Health Act. May you come level, without losing what W B Yeats described as “Courtesy and passion”…..Nigel.

241. nigel harris price - July 28, 2009

I thought, since fofblogmoderator would like me to keep to 3 posts a day, that I would include the whole poem referred to in post #240…..

THE PEOPLE
By W B Yeats

‘What have I earned for all that work,’ I said,
‘For all that I have done at my own charge?
The daily spite of this unmannerly town,
Where who has served the most is most defamed,
The reputation of his lifetime lost
Between the night and morning. I might have lived,
And you know well how great the longing has been,
Where every day my footfall should have lit
In the green shadow of Ferrara wall;
Or climbed among the images of the past –
The unperturbed and courtly images –
Evening and morning, the steep street of Urbino
To where the Duchess and her people talked
The stately midnight until they stood
In their great window looking at the dawn;
I might have had no friend that could not mix
Courtesy and passion into one like those
That saw the wicks grow yellow in the dawn;
I might have used the one substantial right
My trade allows; chosen my company,
And chosen what scenery pleased me best,’
Thereon my phoenix answered in reproof,
‘The drunkards, pilferers of public funds,
All the dishonest crowd I had driven away,
When my luck changed and they dared meet my face,
Crawled from obscurity, and set upon me
Those I had served and some that I had fed;
Yet never have I, now nor any time,
Complained of the people.’

All I could reply
Was: ‘You, that have not lived in thought but deed,
Can have the purity of a natural force,
But I, whose virtues are the definitions
Of the analytic mind, can neither close
The eye of the mind nor keep my tongue from speech.’
And yet, because my heart leaped at her words,
I was abashed, and now they come to mind
After nine years, I sink my head abashed.

(Much to which allusions could apply, if you read, re-read and again, take care about what you are reading…..Nigel.)

242. Tatyana - July 28, 2009

I read a few more chapters from man’s #5 book. One is On working with students who might be loosing the school. Another one is on our relation to live.

This is classical brainwashing:

1. On working with students who might be loosing the School.

“…There is a part in them that recognizes that in the Fellowship they have found a real School. As it turns out, one of the tests that must be passed at some time in this School is that the Teacher’s machine has some obvious weaknesses. This shatters certain illusion in personality about the perfection of the School and the Teacher. The resulting test is whether the part of one that recognizes the truth of the Fellowship and the Teacher is stronger (or can become stronger) than that part of one that was identified with its idea of what a School should be. Those who pass the test come out with a much deeper and more personal relation to their Work, to the School as a vehicle for that Work, to the Teacher as a machine and as a conscious being, and to relationship of consciousness to functions.”

“What they need is the strength of being to confront their doubts and then separate from them (as distinct from overcoming or eliminating them, which is to replace one buffer with another).”

“That way, if they do finally make the effort to deal with this themselves, there will at least be less denying force, and one might even be able to help and encourage them. In the meantime, Robert just seems to leave them space. Personally, I sometimes wonder whether it might not be kinder to them and better for the School simply to ask them to leave.”

2. On our relation to live.

“It seems to me that the confusion about our relation to life arises from our confusion about the difference between consciousness and functions. This is not merely an intellectual confusion; it is a confusion of our being. That is we rarely if ever experience consciousness separately from functions. Instead, most of the time, consciousness is identified with functions, which literally means that we experience them as one thing rather than two.”

“Because consciousness and functions are all mixed up together in men number four most of the time, we must use work of functions as a tool for developing consciousness. Thus, to go out drinking with a group of life people, spending time talking (arguing) about politics, sports, or sex, expressing wit (i.e. negativity), and so on is incompatible with our aim; not because one cannot be present to such activities, but because as long as consciousness and functions are so intertwined one cannot do that sort of thing without affecting the development of one’s soul.”

243. elena - July 28, 2009

Don’t get me wrong Nigel, You and I are worlds apart and yours is no less beautiful! I already went to Court and won and intend to do so over and over again! Just wait and see! Should I die in the hands of one of these fools, I would not have deserved it with the same greatness others have taken it. Fighting cults is the great cause of our time and no one should rest until they are finally closed down.

244. nigel harris price - July 28, 2009

242 Tatyana

Thanks for posting those quotes…..

Isn’t ‘Grind the Gear-Hard Haven’t a Clue’ talking a load of ‘bollocks’ there?…..Nigel.

P.S. How about not ‘Pathway to Presence’, but ‘twiddley-dee states for stupid buggers’?

245. nigel harris price - July 28, 2009

To Elena, with love, should you have missed it being previously posted…..

‘On no Work of Words’ by Dylan Marlais Thomas

On no work of words now for three lean months in the bloody
Belly of the rich year and the big purse of my body
I BITTERLY TAKE TO TASK MY POVERTY AND CRAFT:

To take to give is all, return what is hungrily given
Puffing the pounds of manna up through the dew to heaven,
The lovely GIFT OF THE GAB bangs back on a blind shaft.

To lift to leave from the treasures of man is pleasing death
That will rake at last all currencies of the marked breath
And count the TAKEN, FORSAKEN MYSTERIES IN A BAD DARK.

TO SURRENDER NOW IS TO PAY THE EXPENSIVE OGRE TWICE.
Ancient woods of my blood, dash down to the nuts of the seas
IF I TAKE TO BURN OR RETURN THIS WORLD WHICH IS EACH MAN’S WORK.

246. elena - July 28, 2009

Thanks Tatyana, Maybe someone could ask him how watching porn and being numbed to member’s suffering is compatible with consciousness… ah! and pimping for Robert!

“As it turns out, one of the tests that must be passed at some time in this School is that the Teacher’s machine has some obvious weaknesses.”

Isn’t it delightful how even the teacher is now a machine with weaknesses but as long as they listen to the divine conscious being they can still pay six times the cost of everything? If the so called teacher is a weak narcissistic sociopath, wouldn’t it be right work of centres dears, to put him in the asylum where such lunatics belong?

247. elena - July 28, 2009

My Nigel,

That already makes the number of our posts too many, let’s jump out for now! Have a good laugh!

248. Ames Gilbert - July 28, 2009

Elena (#247), yup!
EH 14–4 NHP

249. Yesri Baba - July 28, 2009

242 Tatyana

All false divisions, false knowledge. Delusion.

250. James Mclemore - July 28, 2009

Gosh Yesri, you are so picky. What’s the big deal about a little delusion and false knowledge when it comes to being tested by angels and getting your illusions shattered.

So, current fof members………,
This is evidently the deal. If you question anything about the organization, especially Burton and his sick sexual appetites and lavish lifestyle that he enjoys at your expense, it means you are being tested. This can be a good thing. You are being given a wonderful opportunity by none other than a group of disembodied angels who have arranged all this just for you. I feel sure you can do it, but there is only one way to pass that test. First, just listen to elder brother GH, prepare yourself to ‘confront and separate’,cast your eyes downward just a bit for effect, let go of your own gut feelings that something is very, very wrong, swallow the vomit that may begin to come up, and voila, you’re there. You have let Burton and the fof shatter your illusions and you are almost as good as home with that ol’ creating a soul deal. Well, that is, as long as you keep making your teaching payments. And one of the nice parts of passing the test, is that you won’t have to be bothered anymore with the pain you sometimes see in the faces of your master’s discarded human toys, or the confusion in some of your other so-called dear friends. You will also have the extra added benefit in that no matter what your wacko leader comes up with and asks of you later, you will be able to easily do it because now you know that your only problem was because of your imagination of what a school should be like. It is so simple, and the same reasoning will work just dandy no matter what Burton does to people, or how much of your money he would like you to part with.

251. X-ray - July 28, 2009

246. elena – July 28, 2009

‘As it turns out, one of the tests that must be passed at some time in this School is that the Teacher’s machine has some obvious weaknesses.’

Both of them are fucking sick.

252. X-ray - July 28, 2009

227. elena – July 27, 2009
———————————————————-
‘The Fellowship of Friends in Oregon House, California is a Cult:
A sophisticated concentration camp that leaves people mindless, filled with Narcissistic Sociopaths raping young people and abandoning the old.’

http://www.petitiononline.com/djindjin/petition.html
https://fofdiscussion.wordpress.com/
http://www.rickross.com/groups/fof.html

PLEASE HELP TO SHUT THEM DOWN’
———————————————————-

PLEASE RESEND PETITION HERE
THANK YOU

FBI
https://tips.fbi.gov/

IRS
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=106778,00.html

Franchise Tax Board
https://webapp.ftb.ca.gov/informantdb/selection.aspx?Lang=en-US

INS
http://www.immigrationdirect.com/uscitizenship-contact.jsp

Department of Justice
Office of the Attorney General, State of California
Office of Victims’ Services
http://ag.ca.gov/victimservices/contact.php

U.S. Department of Labor
http://www.osha.gov/pls/osha7/ecomplaintform.html

Child Abuse
Childhelp’s National Child Abuse Hotline
800-4-A-CHILD (800-422-4453)

Office of the Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
http://gov.ca.gov/interact#email
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
Phone: 916-445-2841
Fax: 916-558-3160 ( new number )

ICSA – International Cultic Studies Association
P.O. Box 2265
Bonita Springs, FL 34133
Phone: 239.514.3081
Fax: 305.393.8193
e-mail: mail@icsamail.

cbs5news
http://cbs5.com/

KNBCnews
http://www.knbc.com/contactus/index.html

KCRA 3 Television
http://www.kcra.com/station/1843006/detail.html

FOXnews
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html

253. Panoritsa - July 28, 2009

242. Tatyana.

An excellent example of a way of thinking that probably most of us had to use to remain in the cult.

1. It disregards one’s own personal perception, opinion, feeling.
2. It is based on constantly trying to extend one’s boundaries.
3. Emphasizes divisions, splits in oneself.
4. Takes the divisions as a given fact.
5. Talks about tests, someone else arranges in order to remain in the organization.
6. The Truth of the Fellowship and the Teacher is more true that one’s moral values, feelings, gut feeling.
7…Oh yes, it discourages to go out drinking with life people…and talking about sex and other “incompatible” with the “precious” consciousness bubble…Especially do not discuss the pervert sex life of the leader of the only Truth Cult on Earth!!!!

How can one read this stuff and be quiet with oneself? Isn’t this an obvious way to protect interests and persuade oneself everything is fine as long as one is in the Cult?

Girard’s strength rests on the fact that he finds it “interesting” to turn his own doubts into intellectual constructions that finally support the thing he was doubting for… He then describes the process that all in the FOF recognize and everyone moves on for a few months. Till the nutty leader comes with a new weird idea and Girard has again work to do…

The Merry-go-round of the Fellowship of Friends…

254. Crouching Tiger - July 28, 2009

Tatyana.

“…There is a part in them that recognizes that in the Fellowship they have found a real School. As it turns out, one of the tests that must be passed at some time in this School is that the Teacher’s machine has some obvious weaknesses. This shatters certain illusion in personality about the perfection of the School and the Teacher. The resulting test is whether the part of one that recognizes the truth of the Fellowship and the Teacher is stronger (or can become stronger) than that part of one that was identified with its idea of what a School should be. Those who pass the test come out with a much deeper and more personal relation to their Work, to the School as a vehicle for that Work, to the Teacher as a machine and as a conscious being, and to relationship of consciousness to functions.”

Thanks for that Tatyana. As GH says a bit later, the truth of all this depends on your view of the relationship between consciousness and functions. RB and the fellowship’s intellectual navvies are always very keen to use Ouspensky’s famous pronouncement that ‘Consciousness is NOT functions’.

What you never hear in the school is what he said immediately afterwards, that ‘Consciousness informs and IMPROVES functions’. In other words, the presence of a more complete awareness in the body affects behaviour patterns for the better and enables the individual to act more sanely as a human being. What I guess we all wanted from RB as a minimum was not perfection, just more of a measure of sanity.

As far coming to terms with a teacher’s ‘obvious weaknesses’ goes. Well, suppose those weaknesses included a liking for torture or murder? Would the test still be the same? Would the same total separation of consciousness and functions apply, so the student disregarded the teacher’s actions and tried to focus on his [supposed] level of consciousness? This is very dangerous ground indeed.

“We rarely if ever experience consciousness separately from functions. Instead, most of the time, consciousness is identified with functions, which literally means that we experience them as one thing rather than two.”

To have the sensation that there is something beyond the mind and feelings and sensations inside your own body is one thing. It is quite another to misunderstand what that means and try to sever the relationship entirely. The sense of this deeper awareness has to be allowed to flow back into the functions. You have to act in the world, within the boundaries of your own body. As a Sufi once said –

“Quietening the mind is only achieved by discipline and proper behaviour, by living according to the laws that govern all interactions….In order to contain and conserve energy, the individual must move within certain boundaries. The source of this knowledge is imprinted in the chromosomes of the individual: “Do not do unto others what you do not wish to be done unto you”. This is the basis of all moral conduct, the basis of all religions before they become tarnished and adapted. It is the absolute code of behaviour. Unless we have correct outward behaviour, we cannot change inwardly.

I am the product of what I do. See where a person lives and what he eats and you will know what he is. The outer and inner are related. You cannot be tidy inwardly and confused outwardly. Invariably, the vessel oozes what is in it….Our blessed prophet lived as a man, and we know how he lived. He traded, travelled, lived with his family, laughed, played with children, a smile always lit up his face, and he was generous. He was self-fulfilled. The self-fulfilled man lives every second of his life fully, to the brim.”

When you are around a ‘self-fulfilled man/woman’ you don’t have to pass any tests or make any separations inside yourself. You don’t have to repeat the same disastrous internal separation that the man you called ‘teacher’ himself made.

255. James Mclemore - July 28, 2009

Just to make sure that my attempt at humor did not diminish Yesri’s post at 249, I would like to repost it.

(242 Tatyana)
“All false divisions, false knowledge. Delusion.”

256. fofblogmoderator - July 28, 2009

252 is new

257. Bares Reposting - July 28, 2009

Re: GH, and others on the dole (or, is that ‘dull?’):

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not
understanding it.
Upton Sinclair

interpretation:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his self-image (read: imaginary picture of themselves) depends upon his
not understanding it.

Here is an excerpt of something copied on the FoF blog some months ago about a once
popular, now dead, Guru. Some editing has been done to make it general/anonymous:

‘[Enter name of favorite Guru] became a controversial figure when they began to have sex with large numbers of devotees, drink obsessively, abuse drugs, engage in incidents of violence against wo/men, and financially exploit followers. Guru claimed that they were doing these things “temporarily” as a form of spiritual teaching (test), in order to reflect
devotees’ own tendencies back to them and thereby accelerate their spiritual development. However, each announcement that this “temporary” method of teaching people was ended forever was followed by another period of partying led by Guru. But there are only so many times one can go through a cycle like this without increasing the probability that doubts will be raised. So Guru eventually decided to restrict their personal interactions
and partying to generally include only the small group of devotees known as “inner circle.” Those in the inner circle serve as intermediaries in interactions with the general membership of the community, and fulfill sensitive functions that require extreme loyalty to Guru. The inner circle has been perhaps the most critical piece of infrastructure developed to enable decades-long pursuit of every kind of fulfillment at
the expense of others. The inner circle’s mission has been to hide what they can of indulgent personal life, abusive treatment of others, and psychological issues. What they
can’t hide, they spin by explaining as spiritual teaching, tantric practice, or “crazy wisdom.” Or, they claim that what Guru’s really all about has nothing to do with Guru’s
body-mind at all, which would mean that anything you could observe about his human behavior is not particularly important when compared to his alleged transcendental function as an agent of spiritual awakening. . .

Guru and his organization have failed to live up to the expectations that many supporters had for them in the early days.’

(Sound familiar?)

Then more recently this:

‘The main reason it, the Fellowship of Friends, still exists is that so many people have bet their entire lives on it and cannot bring themselves to the above realization.’ (Realization of the corruption/abuse.)

258. dragon - July 28, 2009

257. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not
understanding it.”
Upton Sinclair

Yes, it sounds like a mission impossible!!!

or for the German FOF addicts:

(esp. the older ladies spending their evening life time without paying something… nice people there???, culture to go???, warmth all you can eat???)

Wes Brot ich ess, des Lied ich sing!

259. dragon - July 28, 2009

230. itstwinetime

and you are so sexy, so smart, so charming so nespresso what else…

260. dragon - July 28, 2009

FOR ALL (also the FOF people)

Gurrumul and you may forget the mess, the sorrows, you are alive…..

a beautiful voice and a beautiful soul from Australia, he is blind but boys and girls he is able to see more…..and the best, he is NO GURU!

http://www.youtube.com/user/gurrumul

Please enjoy!

261. Mikey - July 28, 2009

I knew this whole cockamamie idea of a self-regulating universe would never work, Ames. What kind of a laid-back God are you promoting anyway?

262. X-ray - July 28, 2009

257. Bares Reposting – July 28, 2009

Unbelievable!
This is identical to Fellowship of Friends.
The knowledge about the cults is truly objective.

263. Tatyana - July 28, 2009

Hi Ames and all.

The book I think is called “Dear Friend” It is the big blue one with his letters to the students all starting with the words “dear friend”…

About the distortions of the 4th way… I spend last year trying to find the answer on the question what is different between FOF and the 4th Way… First I was reading the 4th way and almost every page has something different that what we are taught in FOF.

Many I’s, 3 lines of work, c influence, impressions, gold alchemy, centers, chief feature etc. all have different meaning.

But when I joined the Gurdjieff foundation I saw more things that were turned up-side-down. They use the same terms, but they understand it completely different. One friend of mine in GF read Gerard’s book. He said that even though Mr. Haven has interesting observations (they call it impressions), and is a very educated man, he seems to miss the main thing by calling the teacher – “The Teacher”, the school – “The School” and influence c – “C Influence”, and his overall clinging to conformity seems to be the very opposed thing to the 4th way.
He also saw a video of RB’s meeting. He was not impressed, saying that even though he acts encouraging and affectionate, and people are refine and nice, it still looks like a cult.

But recently my whole understanding of the 4th way changed. I watched a movie about Gurdjieff, re-read In Search and some other books recommended by GF, for example, Diary of Madame Egout Pour Sweet: With Mr. Gurdjieff in Paris, 1948 – 1949. Now I have a completely different picture on the 4th way than while being in FOF. Then I mostly believed that the 4th Way written by Ouspensky was a Bible, but now I know that it was a collection of the meetings recorded by his students.

Many new facts about G. and O. changed my overall picture of what was going on.

I think Mr. G. was a very interesting and powerful person but also a manipulater. And Mr. O. was very talented writer and a philosopher, but emotionally immature. That O. was with G. for only about 5 years and after made his living by selling his ideas for the rest of his life.

How G. was recruiting new members, manipulating, ripping them off, verbally abusing them etc. All that kind of cooled off my interest in the 4th way.

Besides I don’t believe that there is such a thing as a 4th way. I re-read carefully the place where Mr. G was pitching this 4th way idea and at the first time in my life felt that it was a pile of horse shit. I think seekers of truth now days have more information not to buy in this sort of things.

On the other hand I do like Gurdjieff, I think he is talented and deep and he saw a lot of ‘real life’. His stories are the most amazing teaching – better than any system or theory. And the main message – talking about differences – to people was that they are full of shit, “merd” and “idiots” and have no conscience. And also he was very talented dance teacher. His Movements are quite something!

Ouspensky developed his own system, because he liked systems even before he met Mr. G. (I think he is a Girard’s role model). But even his system is different from FOF’s…

264. X-ray - July 28, 2009

263. Tatyana – July 28, 2009

‘And Mr. O. was very talented writer and a philosopher, but emotionally immature.’

A typical view at Mr.O. by G. followers.
You just have joined another cult Tatyana.

265. Tatyana - July 28, 2009

X-ray.
This is just my humble opinion and I did not know it is so typical. I did not hear it from anybody. In GF they have high respect for Mr. O and especially his “Fragments”. I am not Mr. G follower (how can I – I never met the guy and he is dead) and at this point I am not committed to the GF. It was just an interesting experience to see the ideas that have turned into a dogma in FOF from a different perspective. “A work in progress influenced by facts”…

From A. Orange:

“I think an ideology comes out of feelings and it tends to be non-thinking. A philosophy, on the other hand, can have a structured thought base. One would hope that a philosophy, which is always a work in progress, is influenced by facts. So there is a constant interplay between what do I think and why do I think it…
      “Now, if you gather more facts and have more experience, especially with things that have gone wrong — those are especially good learning tools — then you reshape your philosophy, because the facts tell you you’ve got to. It doesn’t change what you wish for. I mean, it’s okay to wish for something that’s, you know, outside of your fact realm. But it’s not okay to confuse all that…
      “Ideology is a lot easier, because you don’t have to know anything or search for anything. You already know the answer to everything. It’s not penetrable by facts. It’s absolutism.”

266. arthur - July 28, 2009

A medical director in Houston said that the kind of medicines found in Michael Jackson’s rented home would knock down a swarm of zombies.

If only that medicine could be used in and around Oregon House, California. The “waking dead”?

267. sallymcnally - July 28, 2009

Linear thinking is limited and circular. The only way out of linear thinking is stillness of the mind, and there are many techniques to do that. Without stopping the non-stop chatter of linear thinking, nothing is allowed to come in from higher mind, or higher realms.

268. sallymcnally - July 28, 2009

Last weekend I went to Haleakula for a retreat. It included 8 women and the retreat leader. Haleakua like Shasta has some amazing energy and of course many people have stories about why. However, for me the stillness allowed me to experience the energy of the mountain.

The stories came later. Many people have lots of stories to tell on this island, mostly about the Goddess, the princess, on and on and on. So one by one the women repeated some of the stories. Then came the tears and the so-called healing at the end.

When I got home I realized that I had been affected by these stories and that it had a negative effect on my experiencing my feeling of oneness that I can have while I’m experiencing stillness. The stories had taken away energy instead of giving me energy like the mountain did in stillness.

Same thing in the Fellowship. They believe the stories they are told and the stories become what they believe is their work. There is really nothing else going on, unless somebody is truly working to raise themselves out of the non-stop stories, linear thinking, chatter, blah, blah, blah, there are plenty of stories to tell and we’ll never run out of them.

namaste

/

269. sallymcnally - July 28, 2009

#267: My own correction. Linear and circular thinking are limited. Although they are different they both lead to dead end thought processes.

270. Tatyana - July 28, 2009

sallymcnally

Interesting you should say this now. I understand that your thoughts are in agreement with Girard’s.

I was thinking that he is often talking about the difference between functions and consciousness and from this perspective FOF turns from the cult into a Conscious School.

I was watching a film about LSD yesterday. What grabbed my attention that this drug was promoted in 60s as solution for expanding one’s consciousness. Some commentators however explained that the state LSD produces is a dysfunction of the brain. So, here it is again – consciousness and functions.

At this point I am not sure I understand this division. I used to take it as a fact while in FOF, but now I question it. I can relate to the ideas of being present, focused, being able to expand one’s understanding, feelings, attitudes, develop certain qualities, but somehow it seems to be valid even without this function vs. consciousness theory.

271. sallymcnally - July 28, 2009

Tatyana: Actions speak louder than words. If the individual lives their life to match their words then I listen to them. In other words, do they walk their talk? Otherwise, just more hot air. Lots of that around lately.

272. itstwinetime - July 28, 2009

The poverty of this place, and apparently the primary posters, is that it circulates around a pole of hatred, a negative energy at best, a denying force, and self-limiting to say the very least.

The fof is a bad, bad, super-bad place, and the leaders are even worse. THAT is already given. Continuing to harp on that same theme, without starting to investigate your utter NEED to continue in the same vein, daily, several times PER DAY, is very telling.

The war was started by someone else, long before YOU got here, and when the call went out for warm bodies to fight it, you willingly ran to the conscription line and waited patiently while they took your temperature, and suited you up, and sent you on your merry way, to fight and fight another day, for the TEAM, “yeah team!”

Now you are fighting the war – against the ENEMIES of cultish behavior – and the rest of your fellow soldiers are glad you are here (hopefully to take a bullet for them, instead of them personally – yeah right!), and CULTS are glad you are here as well (because your behavior in battle is as shameful as theirs is, and they know it). The louder and longer you scream, your death inches ever closer, and it is this noise that you will hear in your head 24-7 till you finally grow cold, YET the war will continue without you, and the CULTS you hate and fear will continue to prosper as before.

THAT “dear friends” is the very definition of a wasted life, mentally speaking.

273. DXP - July 28, 2009

272 Istwinetime

Nonsense. Whistle blowers always get the same stuff from those who want to preserve the status quo, and in this case it is sexual harassment and abuse along with possible illegal activities.

And what is your story? You certainly sound full of hate. Since you deem yourself qualified to judge another’s life and death, what are you doing about yours?

274. nigel harris price - July 28, 2009

272 itstwinetime

A wasted life for me would have been being a ‘computer programmer remembering myself, making teaching payments and enjoying a refined existence’. I now have a teaching situation of my own, with real, live, ‘vibrating with creative energy’ students; I experience my ‘God-State’ highs and ‘shitty’ lows, and get on with my life in a mostly positive vein. However, I have lost primary touch in three digits on each hand, and that is a reminder of how (to use Vedantic texts) I must turn and face my daemons. I will need a shit-load of anti-convulsants (Depakote) as I watch REB being led from the courtroom to serve his (hopefully) long sentence.

…..Nigel.

275. fofblogmoderator - July 28, 2009

Hey itswinetime-

can you tell us how many new members have joined the fof from north america in the last 2 years? If the answer is 0, then mission accomplished.

276. Walter J. Tanner - July 28, 2009

What blogmoderater said.

Since we’ve started aiming some fire at Girard, how about some other of the gang?

If we are naming names, and we are, what about Benjamin Y. (and he’s just the first of some older men I’d love to more regularly skewer on these pages: R. Taylor, Laskin, Goodwin, Spaulding). None of these guys will respond anyway, Robert has told them not to. Does R.Taylor still go over to Russia and Eastern Europe with his acting schtick and get hundreds to join? Is Goodwin still attracting quality music talent from Sacramento and San Francisco? Is Spaulding still directly employed by the FoF, Robert’s “hatchet-man? These investigations and airings, about members not quite as jet-setting as Robert, might be quite useful in “heightening the contradictions” within the Fellowship.

Finally, does anyone want to join me this weekend for the Tut exhibit in San Francisco? We can walk up behind current students and say ridiculous things to them — it will be fun! And as Rock the Boat says, maybe we can erase some circles?

277. X-ray - July 29, 2009

272. itstwinetime – July 28, 2009

You the only one who whines here, others are expressing thoughts and feelings.

278. elena - July 29, 2009

Its Swine Time,

Sounds like you’re threatening me, you’d probably be so stupid as to make a martyr of me and then so many would hear everything you haven’t wanted to hear. I’ll bet on that one! It’s a good deal!

Like a woman said to the paramilitary that kidnapped her: I wasn’t there when God dealt out fear.

It’s not true, I’ll hurt and cry if you even scream at me like Steven Dambeck when I picketed, but it’ll question the Fellowship and a few more will leave. It’s a deal!!

Or like Ghandi said: There are a million things worth dying for and not one worth killing for. You of course belong to the other side of the spectrum, what’s the difference between killing people physically and killing them psychologically? That you won’t be able to rip them off after they are dead. Bad business for you guys but feeble people like you were never good for business anyway, that’s why you had to brainwash people instead. You couldn’t even make your own money, you had to live on others like ticks, blood suckers, pimps.

You’re a sick man Swine Time, a faithful representative of the Fellowship of Friends, a cult of narcissistic sociopaths. When I come back to the States, which will hopefully be very soon, I’ll stand outside the gates and picket with huge signs calling you what you are:

NARCISSISTIC SOCIOPATHS STOP RAPING YOUNG PEOPLE

SICK, CRAZY, LUNATICS, PIMPS, CONSCIOUSLESS CROWD OF SICKOS

HUMAN TICKS, BLOOD SUCKERS

SOUL SUCKERS

YOU BRING TO LIFE EVERYTHING THAT IS HATEFUL

YOU GIVE BIRTH TO DEATH, TO DECADENCE, TO CORRUPTION IN EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOUR MEMBERS

YOU FEEBLE BEINGS LIVING ON PEOPLE’S IDEALS AND GOOD WILL

We will continue to meet until it’s over. You will live to see it die, legally, by human beings, defending what is human. The devotion with which I supported you is the same devotion with which I will look to destroy you. I will not hurt anyone of you physically but I will do my best to destroy everything with which you are hurting people.

THERE IS NOTHING HUMAN ABOUT CULTS

SHUT THE CULT UP

SHUT THE CULT UP

SHUT THE CULT

SHUT THE CULT

SHUT CULTS

SHUT CULTS

SHUT UP

CULTS ARE INHUMAN

CULTS ARE INHUMAN

SHUT THEM UP

THEY ARE THE MODERN CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

CULTS ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCENTRATION CAMPS

SHUT THEM UP

Here are some of the letters that you are trying to avoid looking at, read them well:

279. elena - July 29, 2009

The Fellowship of Friends Investigation.

View Current Signatures – Sign the Petition
Watch the video…..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWZfArp-iO0&feature=channel
To: all appropriate regulating agencies and elected officials of the State of California and the United States of America. World news media, and all world citizens concerned with abuses of religious power.
Petition:

“We are past members of the Fellowship of Friends, an organization operating as a ÒchurchÓ in the rural Sierra Nevada foothills of California. It is dominated and controlled by a man named Robert Earl Burton. Our petition asks for an official investigation into the practices and character of his organization. The charges are documented by personal accounts declared pursuant to California law and under penalty of perjury.

We estimate there are about 15,000 former members worldwide, with current membership estimated at 1600. The long-term influence of this organization can result in the exploitation of its members, the consequences of which are often poor physical and/or mental health, financial ruin and moral devastation. These damaging results are documented.

Robert Burton calls himself a spiritual teacher and compares himself to Jesus, Buddha and Moses. He uses charisma, persuasion, psychological manipulation and coercion to drive large ÒdonationsÓ of labor, money and assets to support the ÒchurchÓ. It is documented that these donations are used largely to fund his extravagant lifestyle, outlandish projects and for sexual predation of his ÒstudentsÓ.

Most all ÒdonationsÓ are mandatory and Mr. Burton enjoys the protection of the organizationÕs tax-exempt status under the laws of California.

Over the last 37 years, the property belonging to the Fellowship of Friends, including the vineyard and commercial winery producing Renaissance wines, has in large part been developed and maintained by the unpaid labor of foreign nationals in this country working on the basis of religious visas. This fact has been intentionally hidden from authorities. Workers are required to donate back to the church the largest portion of their salary, leaving an average monthly living wage of about $460.00. These facts are documented.

Fellowship centers around the world also fund the church through mandatory donations. It is documented that these monies have been routinely smuggled into this country under the direction of Robert Burton and his minions.

Mr. Burton has abused his role as a spiritual teacher to prey upon young men for sex. His methods are documented. There have been several lawsuits on record against Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. A 1996 lawsuit alleging the rape of a minor child by the groupÕs leader was settled out of court for an undisclosed but significant amount of money in order to avoid future scrutiny and litigation. (See Yuba County Superior Court Case No. 060209, 04/29/96). Most of the lawsuits on record have been settled financially, out of court.

These offenses have been largely concealed from current followers and the methods of concealment are documented.

We ask all who share concern for these conditions to sign this petition and ask for an official investigation into these affairs.”

The following are selected letters from previous members of the Fellowship of Friends, which are pertinent to some of the points covered in the petition and which are used with the full permission of the authors whose names have been withheld in order to avoid harassment for those still living near the organization.

RE: “Allegedly Mr. Burton is a sexual predator who has abused his role as a spitritual teacher to prey upon young men for sex.”

“I joined the Fellowship of Friends in San Francisco, in 1974 at the age of 24. In 1975 I was asked to give up my photography business and move to Mt. Carmel Monastery (Rennaisance, “the Ranch” etc) as Robert was collecting “talented young artists” for our community. I was in a relationship with another female member, and we joined together. I was eventually living in a tent on the property. Over the first year at the ranch Robert would spend more and more time around me. I can only see it now as being groomed for receptivity. I was often given little insignificant “artistic” tasks to keep me busy and pliant.

Eventually Robert started having me travel with him. It was during one of these trips (I think it was to Palm Springs. Temecula etc) that I was asked to stay in his hotel room with him and Pe*er Bis*op. I was told to sleep on the floor next to his bed.

Robert’s general inaccessibility to members made being around him appear as a great gift of “higher forces”. We were told, usually by members of his entourage that it was an extreme privilege. In the morning upon awakening I noticed that he was in bed with Pe*er (there were two beds). He asked Pe*er to go and do something. Robert then asked me to come into bed with him. At the time he just hugged me. This alone put me into a profound state of confusion. I was in a relationship with a woman and had no desire for what was happening. At one point he reached down and moved my penis as if he was shifting it’s position as if it was uncomfortable for him. I tried to shrug it off. He did this several more times. At this point I got out of bed and resumed the day.

I don’t remember the time space of all the occurrences, but at some point it was “suggested” that I spend some time staying at the Blake Cottage (RB’s home when he was there). Of course, we were guided by RB and the entourage to believe that proximity was everything in this school. Those who were offered proximity were the “inner circle”.
One of the fundamental principles that was stressed in the FOF was that to awaken, one must relinquish one’s will to that of the teacher, as he represented higher forces, or C Influence, and that he knew far more then ourselves what was needed for us to awaken.

During this time in the Blake Cottage, while I was being “courted” there were quite a few other young men staying there. While walking around in a daze because of the “proximity, and the shock of slowly becoming aware of what was coming, I was oblivious that the same thing was happening to several others who were staying there. The residents of the Blake Cottage, as it appears to me now, comprised two groups…those being groomed for sex, and those who did RB’s bidding, including helping facilitate the manipulation of the young men slated for this disaster.

During this time I was given several “special tasks” such as hand washing RB’s cashmere socks, “blocking” them, and sliding them under his bed to dry on a towel. Another “resident” who was more trusted washed his under shorts.

Around this time the residents would sleep on the floor in the livingroom. One morning while we were sleeping RB came out of his room and tapped me with his foot and made a “come here” gesture with his finger. He led me into his bedroom and closed the door. He indicate to me that he wanted me to be in bed with him. I figured he wanted to hug again so I acquiesced.

At this point he started to fondle my penis. I remember feeling red in the face and confused. He then proceeded to perform oral sex on me. He told me to tap his head three times when I was going to ejaculate so he would know. This type of scenario occurred several times over the next few weeks. It included oral sex (giving and receiving) and some anal sex. I remember basically being numb for a few weeks. I wandered around in a daze thinking “Why is this happening to me”? I was so shocked that I was completely unaware that this was happening to several of the residents at the same time. I have to conclude that they were also in a state of shock. No one discussed it, especially with each other. I was far too ashamed to even discuss it with my girlfriend. At this time in the FOF RB was supposed to be celibate, and homosexual contact was forbidden.

I remember “trying” to tell my girlfriend without saying it. She didn’t understand what I was trying to convey, and I was too afraid to elaborate. I was convinced that I had information that could bring down the FOF..
I remember feigning sleep in the mornings, thinking “no, not me, please” when he would come out in the mornings. It was at this time that I realized that he was choosing boys from a “harem” on most mornings. I felt guilty and miserable about hoping it would be someone else today.

After a few of the events I told him I was in great turmoil and that I didn’t want to do this anymore. He used several arguments to dissuade me, among them: “Higher Forces wished you to do this”. “The turmoil I was feeling was necessary for me to awaken, and it was a great gift from the angels, of which he was one”, “It’s the least you can do for your teacher”, “You are not the only one. I am voracious. I have many students that I share this with” etc. These are close to accurate statements that he made. Some of the other lines that were used for “grooming” was “When I die (meaning him- RB), I will be a higher man than Jesus was when he was crucified”. “Higher forces wishes you to allow me to drink from your cup”. (one of his favorite expressions).

I was disgusted with myself for allowing it to happen. I felt shame that I couldn’t describe or share with anyone. A few of the victims tried telling the hierarchy about what was occurring but they were either told it was not true, or they didn’t want to hear it, or that we couldn’t understand the ways of the angels. I continued to stay at the Blake Cottage for a bit more, but when RB was at the ranch I would stay up at “the lodge” so as to not be a sexual possibility for him. At one point Col*n Lam*ert came to me and said “If you’re going to stay at the Blake Cottage you owe it to Robert to be there when he was”. Col*n was one of RB’s primary enablers and pimps, and to my knowledge, this was his way of not having to have sex with RB.

Eventually I moved up to the lodge on a full time basis and slept under the dinner tables along with the more normal, unexploited members.

At some point RB came to me and asked again for me to be with him, and I told him no. He said he knew what the problem was…that I didn’t want to “receive” him. He thought I would have no objection if it was only him “receiving” me. I remember being incredulous that he arrogantly thought that was the problem…that I didn’t want to “blow” him. I told him that had nothing to do with it. The problem was that it was going on at all. At this point I was grateful to not be around him at all.

This all occurred when no one really knew what was going on, and no one wanted to speak about it, so there were quite a few damaged people walking round including the women that were in relationships with “the boys” that RB selected.

Even just relating this brings back what I felt while it was occurring.

Pursuant to the laws of the State of California and under penalty of perjury I hereby declare the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration is executed on March 8th, 2008 at xxxxx, xxxxx. ”

* *

STATEMENT OF FACT

To Whom It May Concern,

“This is the account of my experiences in the church known as the Fellowship of Friends.

I was member of the Fellowship of Friends from March 1990 until March 2007. From 1998-2002, I functioned in the role of Òcenter directorÓ for a satellite branch of the church located in Bogota, Colombia. From early 2002 until March 2007, I lived in Oregon House, California the location of both the churchÕs headquarters and church leaderÕs primary residence. In 2003, I married Mr. Girard Haven, the second in command of the church. During my marriage, I accompanied my husband on ministerial trips to at least ten different satellite centers of the church across the globe.

In course of my 17 year participation in the organization of the church and direct contact with the churchÕs leader, Mr. Robert Earl Burton, I became aware that Mr. Burton was suffering from a condition known as satyriasis, which manifested as an uncontrollable sexual predation of young men in the church. In conversation with former members and victims of the leaderÕs sexual behavior, it became clear to me that the leader was not expressing his sexuality in a healthy, open manner, with equanimity, but exploiting his position of authority, misusing his power and influence, and covertly sexually abusing these young men. Many have left the church. To my knowledge, not one man ever initiated sex with Mr. Burton. Mr. Burton always initiated the sexual contact, and exclusively with young male church members, often 30-40 years younger than he.

This behavior was sanctioned and supported by the leading figures of the church and longtime members through preaching and promoting the churchÕs doctrine of unquestionable support for the leader, who maintains divine status within the church.

I also witnessed what I believe to be emotional and physical abuse by church members, in the neglectful treatment of an 86 year old member, named Mrs. Dorothy F. Mrs. F suffered from AlzheimerÕs and died in March, 2007. I volunteered to assist in her care in 2002 and then to my horror discovered that she had not been bathed for over a year, her fingernails had not been trimmed for equally as long, and she had a foul body odor. She also appeared underweight, and I witnessed that she had been fed mostly bread sandwiches for her meals.

When I became aware of Mrs. FÕs deteriorating condition, I offered to care for her in my own home, and was dissuaded for three months from doing so by the church members responsible for her care.

When Mrs. FÕs legal guardian finally agreed to let her stay with me, she was brought to me weak, on the verge of death, appearing overmedicated, unable to stand or walk and having seizures. This neglectful treatment was sanctioned by the church membersÕ assertion that Mrs. F was an Òempty shellÓ and would soon be dead. Under my care Mrs. F continued to live for another three years.

To the detriment of the community, I witnessed another elderly member being shunned from participating in teaching events involving Mr. Burton because she ate too much at a dinner. Also, I believe that Mr. BurtonÕs homosexual lifestyle was reflected in the church as misogyny particularly toward the wives of the heterosexual men that he seduced and in general to the rest of the women in the community. He attributes any protest from the wives, husbands or any member to Òfeminine dominanceÓ, a key church concept he developed. It is a doctrine that imposes a dangerous and destructive behavior on members to self-censor and work against their own self-interest, dignity and moral integrity.

Around 1999 much influenced by The Fellowship’s indoctrinating ideas that our “life families” were nothing but biological connections without real meaning in our lives, I left my younger daughter with her father. This has proved the greatest mistake I have ever made and has created terrible suffering for both my daughter and myself. Although other factors involved my leaving her with her father I would have never taken that option had the idea of biological families not been introduced to me by the Fellowship of Friends.

During my marriage to Mr. Girard Haven I witnessed the horrendous psychological effect that the Fellowship of Friends has had over Mr. Haven who has fallen into blind idolatry for Mr. Burton at the cost of his family and himself in exchange for a position of power in the Cult. He hit me various times over disagreements about the Fellowship and refused to pay for my medications on a traveling teaching trip although I had to work as hard as he did. I will never understand this from my husband or a person I worked with or an institution I was there to help.

I have witnessed peopleÕs freedom of speech totally controlled within the Cult. For over three years I have seen Robert Burton allow only two or three members speak at events in a community of over six hundred people in Oregon House. I have seen how people stop to communicate after such long periods of such conditioning. Connected to this, I have seen how the exercises given by Mr. Burton are designed to control peopleÕs intellectual activity in specific directions so that they lose the ability to question the real conditions of their lives. These are facts, not opinions. A close study of the techniques used in the Fellowship of Friends will reveal the systematic indoctrination of peopleÕs emotional, intellectual and physical existence. Such a long study is not pertinent here but all that is being said here can be proven.

I have witnessed that people are valued in the Fellowship of Friends only in as much as they provide the Cult with money. Cheap labor, easy talents, peopleÕs good will is succinctly exploited without the Cult giving anything but more economic demands in return and depriving people from real participation in what is really happening inside. Mr. BurtonÕs control is total and totally dangerous to the well being of the community.

I have witnessed the indoctrination given by the Fellowship of Friends referring to the rest of humanity as Óhe six billion dead people on the planetÓ or Òsleeping massesÓ. When Mr. Burton predicted that California would collapse after an earthquake, thousands of dollars were taken out on loans by students thinking they would never have to pay for them. This is the kind of mentality that is promoted towards the rest of humanity in the Fellowship of Friends.

Sometime around 1998, when I posed a question to Mr. Burton during a church meeting and refused to yield the floor to him (who tried to stop me) until I had finished my question, I was required by Mr. Burton to maintain silence at meetings for a period of two years or I would be ex-communicated from the church. The humiliation that I felt from this censorship contributed to feelings of inferiority and subjugation. It had a lasting effect by compromising my social interactions with members and non-members from then on. I became very insecure, withdrawn, and depressed. I formally left the church and separated from my husband in late March 2007. I was physically exhausted, spiritually depleted, angry, depressed, and sad.

I have witnessed the silent suffering of hundreds of students who have forgotten themselves for over twenty years. People who no longer know who they are or if they ever were anything else. People walk disguised in silk clothes in the Fellowship of Friends, but have had to leave their soul at the entrance.

Now that I am in the process of healing the emotional, physical and spiritual damage brought about through my involvement in this Cult, I am openly supporting every investigation of the practices and character of this corrupt organization and its leader.

Pursuant to the laws of the State of California and under penalty of perjury I hereby declare the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration is executed on March 8, 2008 at the city and county of San Francisco, California.Ó

Sincerely,
Mrs. Clara Helena Haven

* *

ÒThe influence of this church is documented to have had damaging results on the lives of many members, allegedly leaving them in a state of poor physical and/or mental health., financial ruin and moral devastation.Ó

ÒHere are the facts concerning myself, XXXXX, and the Fellowship of Friends which gives an implementation of part of the petition described above:

I have been a member of the school for 23 years.

In 1986, after getting my degree as an architect, I went to live at ÒRenaissanceÓ during 9 months. I met there one student who would later become my husband. At that time, he was living with the teacher Robert Burton and had a sexual relationship with him.

After 9 months there, I went back to my country, France, to finally work with my new profession. My future husband decided to leave the teacherÕs residence and to come to Paris to live with me. The teacher, Robert Burton, through the director of the ParisÕs center, asked me to get married with XXXXX or to leave the school.

R. Burton gave me two weeks to make a decision and said that if things did not change, my future husband will have to come back to the United States with him.

We finally got married and stayed two years in Paris. Then Robert Burton asked us to come back to settle definitively to ÒRenaissanceÓ.

In 1990, we came back to live there, both on salary for the school, with only 300 dollars each by month to live. Robert Burton asked us to apply to get a green card so we could stay there close to him, so, we did through my diploma of Architecture. I took us around one year and some months to get it.

All these facts happened and all these decisions were taken, always with the background that we should contribute to the proper functioning of the school and that we should surrender to the will of our teacher, who saw better than us what we should do.

I did not know at that time that the teacher Robert Burton had never stopped to have sex with my husband, (even when I was just married, R. Burton was travelling to France every year). At that time, I was just trusting my husband and my teacher.

Then the teacher began to travel 2 or 3 days a week (1992) with my husband. As I was asking questions and not receiving alarming answers, I was still trusting my husband and my teacher. I understood later that the teacher asked my husband to hide these facts to me.

Until the day, when my husband told me abruptly after five years of marriage, that he wanted to get divorced, definitely and without any hope of change. The same day, he went back to live at the residence of the teacher. This happened without any explanation, and left me in a state of complete despair. I could not free myself from this relation until I knew the complete truth. I implored my husband to give the reasons of his departure, and he did after some months: he told me he never stopped having sexual relation with Robert Burton, during all our marriage, even though he never liked it. That were his own words.

During the following five years, I had nightmares because of that. It could have ruined my health and life; fortunately I was not alone. I could have left the school at that time, but I took this pressure coming from the teacher as my work. I was convinced that all these facts had created a specific relation between the teacher and myself. The teacher did everything to make me feel that way: little attentions, invitation to dinner, É.

After 1992, I went back to France, divorced, and married again with another student who he is still my husband now after sixteen years. I and my present husband XXXXX can testimony that Robert Burton tried also to seduce him, tried to have sex with him using his position as a spiritual master. My husband always refused his propositions.

We decided to take distance, little by little, more and more from him until the moment we finally left the school of R. Burton in 2007.

Pursuant to the laws of the State of California and under penalty of perjury, I hereby declare the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration is executed on 20, 7, 2008 at xxxxx, xxxxx.Ó

* *

“From approximately 1989 until approximately 1994, I was the treasurer of the ÒFellowship of Friends VereinÓ, which is the legal form the Fellowship of Friends religion takes in Germany. In this capacity I performed bookkeeping for all funds collected as ÒdonationsÓ in the various groups of Fellowship of Friends members in different German cities. The tern ÒdonationsÓ is fraudulent, as they are in no way voluntary. Failure to promptly pay the required sums almost inevitably resulted in expulsion from the organization. During that period, on request of the chief financial officer at the FellowshipÕs world headquarters in Oregon House, California and others there, I made numerous regular transfers from the bank account of the ÒFellowship of Friends VereinÓ to the main Fellowship of Friends bank account in California. It was made clear to me that these must be designated on the transfer forms as ÒstipendsÓ for German members of the Fellowship of Friends who were ÒstudyingÓ at the religionÕs primary retreat in Oregon House, California. It was also made clear to me that the reason for this was that these German members of the organization were in the US on tourist visas and no clear ÒpaymentÓ to them from the US account for their work for the Fellowship while in the US could legally be made. These members were not ÒstudyingÓ in any usual sense of that word. Most of them were engaged in various kinds of manual labor such as gardening, landscaping, working in the vineyard or in the winery of Renaissance Vineyard and Winery, working in the orchards, serving and/or cleaning at meals, etc.

Although it was normally not possible for a non-US citizen in the US on a tourist visa to open a bank account in a US bank, the Fellowship had an arrangement with the Bank of America which allowed such foreigners working for the Fellowship in Oregon House while there on tourist visas, to obtain their salaries. I was not privy to the details of how this was done.

Pursuant to the laws of the State of California and under penalty of perjury I hereby declare the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration is executed on March 19, 2008, at XXXX, XXXX.”

* *

To whom it may concern,

I am one of many Fellowship students who left the organization after becoming disillusioned by the way it handled Tr-y Buz-e-Ôs case in 1994. One day in October 1994, as I was leaving after having lunch at the Lincoln lodge, I ran into Mich-el G-odw-n, one of Robert BurtonÕs most trusted helpers, going through all the studentsÕ mailboxes and removing the letters that Rich-rd Buz-e- had sent out to inform them of what had happened to him and his son. [EDIT NOTE: When he was a minor, Rich-rd Buz-e-Ôs son Tr-y was sexually molested by Robert Burton, resulting in a lawsuit settled out of court.]

I found this interference with the delivery of U.S. mail outrageous. So, for the first and only time during eight years at Renaissance/Apollo, I phoned the center director, Gira-d Hav-n, eager to hear what he had to say about it. I donÕt remember the entire conversation, and I wish I had written it all down, but his attitude really struck me and had no small impact on my subsequent leaving. He completely justified the stealing of the letters, at one point comparing the school to a healthy body and Rich-rd and his accomplices to Òbad virusesÓ who, if allowed to come in touch with it, would infect said body like a dangerous and potentially destructive disease. Of course, I knew Rich-rd and the other persons involved, and I was aware that they were just suffering people trying to get some answers. So, when I became a little upset while telling him how I felt about the situation, he threatened to cut short the conversation if I didnÕt keep my ÒnegativityÓ in check. I regained my composure as best as I could, but when I finally hung up I was very frustrated, since I hadnÕt received one single humane and reasonable answer as to why the issue at hand was being handled in this manner.

Pursuant to the laws of the State of California and under penalty of perjury I hereby declare the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration is executed on March 31, 2009 in XXXX, XXXX.

* *

A boy (young man) gets a call from Dorian: Dorian says ÒRobert would like to get to know you better. Would you like to meet with the Teacher tomorrow after the meeting?Ó

The boy says- ÒSure, thank you for the invitation.Ó

(Thinking that Òget to know you betterÓ somehow refers to knowledge and the partaking thereof, maybe some hug, hug, coffee table talk, casual stuff, you knowÉnothing graphic, nothing nude.)

So, Sunday meeting is over, boy is shown to the study where he is seated by Dorian, (similar to how a detective on duty might seat a man wondering where his kidnapped wife was to be found); the boy is wondering a little, Ôbeing presentÕÉ

Robert Burton walks through the library/study, passes the boy, saying nothing as he makes fleeting eye contact with him as heÕs walking and darts (Bee line) straight into his bedroom and disappears from sight, so far as the library couch-view from the left is concerned.

The boy sits, stays right where he was seated by Dorian, waits for the ÒGet to know you betterÓ to startÉ

Maybe some shared reading, a little walk in the garden, perhaps a good (one) glass of wine together discussing this or that casual student-teacher thingy, whatever that is or is to beÉ

Robert Burton appears in the bedroom doorway and says- ÒDearÉ(blah, blah, something about a recollection he had of the boy, yet, the boy, has not a chance to say anything to this, when right after the blah, blah, Ôthe TEACHERÕ says to the boy-

ÒCome in here, dear.Ó

So the boy shyly walks into the bedroom and the TEACHER immediately closes the door, locks the door with a key, puts the key in his left pocket and (as cold and routine as a pair of surgical Ôscrotum scissorsÕ) says to the shy, a bit confused boy-

ÒDear, take off all your clothes and hang them there on the back of the door, on those hangers.Ó

The boy is dumbfounded, so quick, so little words, yet plenty of presence, right? (No, not right, though presence, yes.)

Robert Burton quickly proceeds to his bathroom and begins to wash his hands.

The boy is standing stunned, cold, nervous, mind is racing about 117 mph, heart somewhere near the tonsils he never had taken out as a child.

Then something snaps, all the being of a fairytale demi-god raises us inside him and he looks at THE TEACHER, looks with a sort of knowing clarity that precludes the marriage of the Sperm and the EggÉsees where the winterly clamminess atmosphere is getting its fuelÉ

He goes to the teacher, takes him by the hand and looks him straight into the eyes and says-

ÒI cannot do this Robert; I do not want to hurt your feelings, but, I did not know it would be THIS, like this, involving getting naked with you, etc., etc.Ó

Robert starts to say things like-

ÒYou donÕt have to do me.Ó
ÒYou donÕt have to do anything for me.Ó
ÒI just want to lay with you.Ó

The boy says to Robert- ÒRobert, this is much more than just getting to know meÉÓ

The boy is interrupted, Robert says ÒYou know my lifestyle, etc., etc.Ó

The boy begins to walk to the locked door, Robert moves in front of the door and says-

ÒWhat is it?Ó

The boy says Ð ÒRobert, but I am in a relationshipÉÓ

He gets interrupted again, Robert says Ð ÒWhat? Is it a woman? (with a very negative, spiteful stress on the word ÔwomanÕ).

The boy admits (and is made to feel like itÕs a religious confession in a Catholic confession box) Òyes, it is a woman.Ó

Robert swirls his eyes and starts pontificating and saying things likeÐ

“ThereÕs six billion sleeping heterosexuals on the planet, these are mechanical relationships, they are not conscious, not conscious love, these are asleep, I am a conscious being, I am your teacher.Ó

The boy is still with his state of being so sure of the connection between consciousness and conscience he senses that he is truly slicing time with a butter knife, so easy, so smooth, as Robert BurtonÕs impression simply begins to peel off, like a billboard sign during an oncoming hurricaneÉ

The boy says Ð ÒRobert, I am not going to play the justification game with you, but what about my feelings, the feeling of ÔherÕ?Ó

He interrupted again

(the door is still locked and THE TEACHER is less than thirteen inches away the whole time)Ð

Robert Burton says Ð ÒYou said ÔButÕ, (But) is inner consideringÉFeelings? Hafiz said ÔGet out of the way Hafiz, youÕre standing in my wayÕ.Ó

This the boy takes as meaning that ÔfeelingsÕ are mechanical, worthless, an obstacle to awakening;

yet, everything is crystal clear that Robert is speaking to himself, a reflection in the mirror, not the one, the boy now standing behind the reflection;

the boy starts to feel a bit odd, in that heÕs being seen as a mirror, a thing, and not his standing behind the mirror-ness. After all, this guy is supposed to be an angel in a manÕs body and he canÕt see another swan (?)

The boy repeats, ÒRobert, I cannot do thisÉÓ

He is interrupted again, yet this time THE TEACHER is a bit more desperate, irritable, slightly panicky in his tone of voice, Robert Burton saysÐ

ÒYou do not know what you are saying, you are missing an opportunity to have a relationship with a conscious being, this may be your one and only chance to have this opportunity.Ó

The boy feels for a duration of time in the moment, smallness, threat, a sort of ÔyouÕre going to be out if you donÕtÕ implication, a sort of ÔI donÕt want Dorian to see my failure in this, I donÕt want to fail at having had youÕ sort of moody static in his tone of voice, his body language, etc.

The boy says Ð ÒRobert, would things be different if we got together?Ó (The boy says this because heÕs wondering what all this is really about, whereÕs it leading, if his answer will reflect some consequence in his saying ÔNoÕ?)

Robert says Ð ÒMore meetings, going places with me, more times like this, etc., etc.Ó

The boy replies, ÒRobert, No, I cannot.Ó

Robert gives the Ôpretty pissed off behind the scenesÕ look and saysÐ

ÒThatÕs alright, dear, IÕll transform itÉmaybe weÕll get together in some more spontaneous way later. DonÕt worry, IÕll transform it. You may go now.Ó

Robert unlocks the door and says Ð Òalright dear, you can go.Ó

The boy walks through the library and goes to sit down in the Galleria main room. The door to the library is closed, 1 minute passes and the door to the library opens, itÕs Robert, he asks the boy to go downstairs and get Dorian (the responsible party?)

So the boy does Ôfetch DorianÕÉ

As the downstairs bedroom door opens Dorian looks a bit stunned to see the boy he had not so long ago lead into the library (back before the usual time?)

Dorian does not follow the boy upstairs right away, but closes the door and begins talking to Mihai.

The boy goes back upstairs and sits back where he was prior to the Ôgo fetch orderÕ.

Dorian appears, then disappears into the library alongside/with the TEACHER and the door closesÉend of story (in more ways than one).

The ÔroleÕ the boy had for nearly two years abruptly ended in a very ÔsubtleÕ way; certain people simply stopped calling him for Ôregular third line dutyÕ and he was ostracized, not exiled by just the TEACHER, ostracized with the fullest meaning and depth of the word from the Fellowship of Friends, nothing would ever be the same, for on this day BELIEF was annihilated by love and LOVE replaced Ômind-gamesÕ.

This is a record of my experience, signed 06-01-2008.

* *

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

The following items give a rough overview of the money required of members of the Fellowship of Friends.

Money in the Fellowship:

– – – Teaching payments: 10\% of gross salary, or minimum amount, which depends on the country and situation. In the U.S. about $125.

– – – Monthly donations according to situation, i.e. reductions fro unemployed, students, mothers at home with children, etc. The standard donation would be about $250 in the U.S.

– – – Seasonal donations, spring, fall, and Christmas. Spring and fall donations are $750 each in the U.S., less in depressed economies.

The above payments are obligatory; any member not able to make these three payments will be removed from membership. In addition to the required payments there are constant pressures to participate in the following money-making activities and events:

– – – Auctions are held several times a year at holidays when the maximum number of students are visiting the property in Oregon House. Before each auction, members are pressured to donate items of value such as jewelry, art objects, silver and porcelain, etc. to be auctioned. In addition various services, such as lectures on subjects of general interest, home and garden care, musical performances, etc. are donated. The large-ticket items are events in which the Teacher, Burton, comes to individual homes for teaching events such as lunches, dinners, teas. These are sold for thousands of dollars, as much as eight to ten thousand for large events. Auctions usually bring in $100,000 or more.

– – – Meetings with the teacher (or, again, a designated subordinate) go on non-stop, sometimes two or three each day, more on weekends when there are visitors. Considerable invention and creativity goes into these events, which are held on mountain tops, in various gardens (of which there are many on the property), or on islands in the lakes Ð with guests ferried to the tables in boats. Prices for these dining events vary according to many factors such as the number of participants (as many as 70 at a table for large seatings), the nature of the occasion (New YearÕs Eve dinner is $1000 per plate) and so forth. The least expensive dining event would be a weekday breakfast for about $125.

– – – Frequent solicitations are made for special gifts for the teacher. Sometimes the money (suggested amounts) is simply to be placed in a Òlovely cardÓ and ssent to him as a gift for birthdays or holidays. Other times an expensive item, for example of jewelry or art objects, will have been selected and the members asked to pay for it. Also the purpose of the money to be sent may be for various building projects (most of these are never in fact completed).

– – – Performances of ballet and classical music are presented frequently. The ticket prices are comparable to professional performances in major cultural centers of the world. The quality of the performances is not.

– – – Very elaborate and expensive events are arranged about three times a year, with lavish preparations. In the spring and fall of recent years these have included trips to various locations in Europe and Middle East and include Nile Cruises, 5 star hotels, luxurious restaurants, and so forth. The package prices of these tours are in considerable excess of what an individual independent traveler would pay. In the summers the big blow out has been held at Isis where students have been asked to donate space to visitors arriving from other countries or elsewhere in the U.S. The visitors are then charged for their accommodations.

– – – In all of the above instances, probably the greatest dollar value donation is in the form of labor. For each breakfast, lunch, tea, reception, or dinner, a small army of workers volunteers to cook, wash dishes, scrub pots, set up and serve and then clear tables. In recent years it has been necessary to ÒpayÓ these volunteers with vouchers that can then be used to attend specially designated events. In addition, the landscaping and building projects, the basic food services and maintenance work are done by workers earning about $400 per month for working very long hours each week.

This is, I am sure, only a partial list. The methods of extracting money from the membership of the Fellowship are truly a marvel of inventiveness and variety. Some other parts of this mosaic are being volunteered currently on the WordPress blog. Where does the money go? What accounting of it is made? I suspect there is little available in the way of anything that could be obtained without a court order, and I also suspect that not much would show up even with one. The money simply goes to Burton and he spends it. He is a compulsive shopper with appallingly bad but very expensive tastes. I don’t know how these things could be “documented” other than with the testimony of present and former members, all of whom are, or have been for many years, participants in the process—and many of whom would be willing, indeed eager, to be quoted.

I would only add that the financial abuses, quite astonishing as they are, are the least of the abuses.

Pursuant to the laws of the State of California and under penalty of perjury I hereby declare the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration is executed on June 9th, 2008 at XXXXX, XXXXX.

* *

“My name is xxxxx xxxxx. While a member of the Fellowship of Friends under the ÒtutelageÓ of Robert Earl Burton I was asked to carry a large amount of money from Europe to the organizationÕs headquarters in California. I was instructed to buy travelerÕs cheques and then upon arrival I had to sign them over to the cashier there. I am sure that this took place regularly over the years with many of the people coming from other countries as a means of by-passing U.S. authorities accounting.

It represents a huge unaccounted income over the years. Thousands of people paying 10\% of their earnings plus quarterly extra payments.

I can also attest to the leader Robert Earl BurtonÕs sexual harassment personally.

Pursuant to the laws of the State of California and under penalty of perjury I hereby declare the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration is executed on February the second 02-02-2008 at xxxxx, xxxxx.”

* *

To whom it may concern:

ÒAround 1971 I began reading material about a system of psychology brought to the West by George Ivanovich Gurdjieff.

After several years of reading this literature and other references connected to this work, I realized for myself that the system sounded true and was true.

One of the primary suggestions of this system was that oneÕs psychology is ingrained, and in order to change or enhance oneÕs psychological attributes it could not be done by oneself. One needed a school of like-minded individuals who were guided by a REAL TEACHER.
I became determined about 1975 to find such a school and teacher. In July of 1976, I found an advertisement of a group in Pennsylvania and struck out in that direction.

While traveling through Houston, Texas I found by happenstance two people from the Fellowship of Friends placing bookmarks in books related to the Fourth Way.

I introduced myself and they in turn invited me to a prospective student meeting. Because of my zeal, I thought I had been blessed by good fortune.

Eventually I joined this school and later moved into a teaching house or center. It seemed to be a requirement for my progress.

About a year later the teaching center was shut down and the whole group moved to different locations in California.

I myself arrived broke and bewildered. I was given suggestions by fellow students but the Fellowship of Friends as an entity did not offer help of any kind. I was left basically alone.

Not long afterward I became entangled with a married woman who was physically separated from her husband because she also had a boyfriend. The school had a no sex rule between unmarried people.

Although the flirting between us became intimate the result did not end in sexual intercourse. Although she initiated the encounter, she eventually called a center director who called me in for a conference. I was told what I was being accused of and to tell my side of the story. I refused.

The school director Gira*rd Ha*ven then said I had 24 hours to leave the school and if I wanted to return an opportunity would be given and that I would have to pay a fine of $2500.00.

I was stunned and buffered the shock by taking it as a personal task to gather $2500.00.

The school had a rule about not speaking to former students. So, the next day I managed to leave San Francisco with the intent of returning. However, I could not overcome the shocking experience of being rejected by a real and true Fourth Way school.

So, for the first 10 years, I endured mental health problems of low self-esteem, self-loathing and self-destruction. I was a homeless person incapacitated by fear and anger. Every attempt to raise out of the gutter was delayed by self-inflicted hatred of being kicked out of a REAL FOURTH WAY SCHOOL GUIDED BY A CONSCIOUS TEACHER.

The second ten years the psychological pain subsided to a dull background memory. Yet, when a memory of that experience rose to the forefront tears would well up in my eyes. Eventually, I would avoid the welling up of tears by simply saying ÒdonÕt go thereÓ.

Eventually I developed C.O.P.D. (chronic obstructive lung disease) and because of this lost all hope about the future. I had moved forty-five (45) times and several jobs for basic subsistence. Until I retired to Social Security.

I had never owned or operated a computer until late 2006. In early 2007 I found a website dedicated to the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Earl Burton the alleged Conscious Teacher. They call it a blog and most if not all who go there are former students.

When I found this blog I was shocked at what I was reading. That a lawsuit had been settled against Robert Earl Burton, that he was accused of having sex with young males at the same time I was expelled, that he quit any connection with the Fourth Way. The primary reason for my joining.

I did go through some residue trauma from the past over all this alleged misbehavior by Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends.

The most valued thing in my whole life was a sham from the very beginning. All the suffering and mental anguish for 27 years was for nothing.

Pursuant to the laws of the State of California and under penalty of perjury I hereby declare the foregoing is true and correct and that this declaration is executed on April 3, 2008 at XXXXX, XXXXX.Ó

Sincerely,

The Undersigned

280. elena - July 29, 2009

Walter Tanner,

Names? Why don’t we start naming every one of the women who gave up their children, who abandoned them and then made a living on inducing others to do so because they had to justify their own crimes?

Or those who didn’t have children but manipulated every young person that joined the Phallusheeeeeeeep?

Or those who had children and equally abandoned them because they didn’t have time for their biological families? Who wouldn’t even put them up in their own house after they shot themselves? Is one example enough or do you need a hundred to take it seriously?

281. Tatyana - July 29, 2009

Rereading theses stories brings a different meaning to the words of Girard:
“The Teacher’s machine has some obvious weaknesses. This shatters certain illusion … about the perfection of the School and the Teacher.”

Walter, what can you say to them that will be more ridiculous than what their Teacher (and themselves) say?

282. Panoritsa - July 29, 2009

272. itstwinetime

Good morning Sunshine!

283. harryhindsight - July 29, 2009

Tatyana,

The big lie in Ouspensky and Haven and the axiom that allows all kinds of sick nonsense to be justified is that functions can exist without consciousness. It isn’t true, think about it.

The BIG BUFFER from Girard is that yes, Robert’s MACHINE has some obvious weaknesses, but since the machine is just a machine, it somehow doesn’t matter. Robert you see, is not his machine. Robert’s machine therefore, can spend time grooming a young student to fist him anally in the company of others, but if YOU get identified with that then…… well sweetie, you should really be encouraged to leave.

Making this dualistic division between Robert and his machine allows Girard to both admit the undeniably obvious facts staring everyone glaringly in the face, i.e. that on one level, YES he really is a bit of a sicko, but then to conveniently discount it all at the same time as being somehow spiritually irrelevant and of all things, a sort of test of progress and understanding which ultimately sorts out the wheat from the chaff.
The sorting process in actuality is that of the fundamentalists from those who salvaged a little common sense and as the months roll on, the fundamentalists become more and more concentrated within the group as the living find ways to leave.
In some circles this type of justifying is referred to as a, “spiritual bypass” – the use of spiritual sounding concepts to alleviate the incongruity between what you definitely see and what you wish to believe about what you see. This process is rampant in the Fellowship and represents a type of imaginary, conceptual glue, holding people in place.

If you talk to people who have been up close to Robert in the hardcore sex rituals, the picture emerges of a man helplessly addicted and identified with his next sex fix. Most, eventually get to feel sorry for him and regard him as a sad, old, deluded joke who provides prestige, privilege and material comfort in exchange for weird sex. They somehow balance their own instinctive needs with his obsessive demands and refer to their time spent in scheduled sex performances as being, “on duty”.

Harry.

284. Tatyana - July 29, 2009

Thank you Harry.
Yes, this axiom is the very core of the FOF.
I was trying to do some research on the subject of consciousness and to my surprise I found that there is no agreement even on a definition of this “thing”.
There are hundreds of theories and axioms on what it could be and made of. Some ascribing it to the function of the pineal gland, some to the cultural influence, some to the God etc. etc. I even found a strange Vedanta theory on 4 states of consciousness which has 1st and 2nd states “up side down”:

“There are four states of consciousness:
1. The waking state
2. The dreaming state
3. The state of deep sleep.
However mystics claim that there is a fourth state, called turîya, which permeates and transcends the three states of ordinary consciousness. ”

But what I was really trying to find is an information on difference between functions and consciousness and how one who is “conscious” manifests or acts. In one of his letters Girard mentions that he verified that Robert is awake because he acts as if he is awake and in order to act as if he is awake for so long he has to be awake. I can find the exact quotation later.

Even according to Ouspensky only an individual himself can know if he is awake or not. So, I don’t know how people can “verify” that Robert is a conscious being except believing to what he and others said about it.

On the other hand, I don’t know, maybe stopping thoughts and linear thinking for a long period of time brings the answers? So I am going to the internal silence for a while. See you later!

285. Tatyana - July 29, 2009

Oh, yes, one more thing. Functions can exists without consciousness. Persistent vegetative state (PVS) is a condition in which an individual loses the higher cerebral powers of the brain, but maintains sleep-wake cycles with full or partial autonomic functions.
But I don’t think this is the case with Robert…

286. nigel harris price - July 29, 2009

283

One way and, perhaps the best way, to decide on this functions/consciousness ‘debate’ is to get REB into court. I am convinced that his ‘conscious act’ will fall apart under the intense duress of being ‘grilled’ by pertinent questions from the prosecution. Girard pointed out, according to Tatyana, that REB continually ‘acts consciously’. In my opinion, it is possible for any ‘sicko’ to maintain this act, if the environment and ‘trimmings’ are there to support it. In court, there would be none of this support (except the ‘power suits’)…..Nigel.

287. Jomo Piñata - July 29, 2009

284/Tatyana

But what I was really trying to find is an information on difference between functions and consciousness and how one who is “conscious” manifests or acts.

Tatyana,

I have been enjoying reading your reflections on the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky ideologies, and on your own experiences. Please keep posting them. The authenticity of your own experience comes through and it makes for great reading.

In my opinion, embedded in your statement immediately above are two “question-begging” statements, namely:

1. “consciousness” and “functions” are “different things” and
2. someone who is “conscious” “manifests” or acts “differently”

I call them “question-begging” because they presuppose what they set out to prove. (I tried “ideological,” but that wasn’t quite the right term, although I also think the statements have an ideological quality to them, because they contain implied value judgments pretending to be merely descriptive of the way things are.)

In your inquiry, may I suggest you replace the word “consciousness” with the word “awareness,” being careful to remember that it must be accompanied by the preposition “of” and a blank after the word “of,” which you get to fill in. (In my opinion you have to fill in the blank in order to make any sense. If you leave it blank, it gets filled in automatically with the phrase “nothing in particular.”)

Same with “conscious.” Try substituting “aware” and follow it with “of” and a blank which you get to fill in and which, if not filled in, gets filled in automatically with the phrase “nothing in particular.”

[N.B.: In the Fellowship the words “consciousness” and “conscious” didn’t take the preposition “of,” so there was an implied “of” and an implied blank which got filled in with the group projective process. Let’s leave group projective process out of this thought game.]

And, likewise, let’s leave the word “functions” out of it. If you want to talk about specific processes, instead of some big fuzzy, nebulous, analytically evasive category that has nothing to recommend it, go for it. The virtue of lumping miscellaneous processes together into an undifferentiated category–“functions”–(which sets up a dualistic “consciousness vs. functions” dichotomy suspiciously resembling other dichotomies like “mind vs. body” or “body vs. soul,”) evades me.

Keep on posting.

288. nigel harris price - July 29, 2009

287 Jomo Pinata

Maybe a little quote from Walt Whitman would help the ‘argument’…..

“Both in and out of the game,
And watching and wondering at it.”

A question to ponder…..if ‘consciousness’ survives death (as Ouspensky posited), does it disappear into a ‘medium of nothingness’, i.e. not being attached to functions, or is there some sort of electrical/spiritual functioning? Personally I, again, go along with Whitman, “I scoff at what you call dissolution”. And, if I am allowed to ‘harp on’ about bi-polar, and the high state, it is, as you would like to call it, ‘awareness’ with the ‘volume turned up’…..Nigel.

289. Tatyana - July 29, 2009

Thank you Jomo, I will try.

So, instead of “Robert is a Conscious Being” I’ll say: “Robert is aware of… nothing in particular… being” Funny!

“Our Teacher is aware of ‘things’ being, welcome to FOF” will not make so many people join…

Or when he is pressing for sex in his “bad room”:
“There’s six billion sleeping heterosexuals on the planet, these are mechanical relationships, they are not “AWARE”, not “AWARE OF” love, these are asleep, I am “AN AWARE OF THINGS” being, I am your teacher.”

Oh, man, I can’t stop laughing…

290. nigel harris price - July 29, 2009

Anyone think REB is a creative genius?…..

(Copied and pasted from Google)

“Though this psychopathology is not for one to wish, one interesting association with bipolar disorder is the creativity of those afflicted. This is not the normal creativity experienced by the above-average people (on the scale of creativity). This creativity is the creative genius, which is so rare, yet an inordinate percentage of the well-known creative people were/are afflicted with manic depression. Among the lengthy list are: (writers) F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Sylvia Plath; (poets) WILLIAM BLAKE, Sara Teasdale, WALT WHITMAN, Ralph Waldo Emerson; (composers) Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky. Psychiatrists, realizing a connection greater than coincidence, have performed studies all over the world in an attempt to establish a link between bipolar disorder and creativity. In the 1970s, Nancy C. Andreasen of the University of Iowa examined 30 creative writers and found 80% had experienced at least one episode of major depression, hypomania, or mania. A few years later Kay Redfield Jamison studied 47 British writers, painters, and sculptors from the Royal Academy. She found that 38% had been treated for bipolar disorder. In particular, half of the poets (the largest group with manic depression) had needed medication or hospitalization. Researchers at Harvard University set up a study to assess the degree of original thinking to perform creative tasks. They were going to rate creativity in a sample of manic-depressive patients. Their results showed that manic-depressives have a greater percentage of creativity than the controls. There have been biographical studies of earlier generations of artists and writers which show that they have 18 times the rate of suicide (as compared to the general population), 8-10 times the rate of unipolar depression, and 10-20 times the rate of bipolar depression. The additive results of these studies provide ample evidence that there is a link between bipolar disorder and creative genius. The question now is not whether or not there exists a connection between the two, but why it exists.”

291. elena - July 29, 2009

272 itstwinetime
…and CULTS are glad you are here as well (because your behavior in battle is as shameful as theirs is, and they know it)…

We also disagree here.

Have you noticed how important it is for people to pretend that everything is O.K. and how uncomfortable they get when it is obvious things are not? The great difference between The Fellowship Cult, regular life and blog life is that the Cult has to pretend that everything is absolutely beautiful and taken care of so that if anyone disagrees he or she can be quickly spotted. We’ve come to live in a time in which people try to avoid dealing with difficult things which is ridiculous because there are always big and small problems to solve and it is a lovely thing for every human being to deal with the problems at hand.

The importance of standing outside the Fellowship gates with huge signs telling Phallusheepeeeers that they are PIMPS, BLOOD SUCKERS, LIVING ON INNOCENT PEOPLE’S GOOD WILL AND IDEALS is that Fellowship members completely ignore that they are doing this. Of course they’ll get very angry when they see such signs and think of themselves as feeble little creatures who do everything the divine being tells them to do, good little girls and boys who’ve never hurt anyone and work hard to make money for, how did you call him? The fat old faggot to buy new clothes for the Barbies and take them for a drive to fucking land. You bet that they’ll be shocked to the bones and experience a great deal of dissonance for being treated with such reality about their condition, specially after being pampered with dandelions for so many years in the surface of alchemy while being thoroughly ignored in the core of their being. The most difficult thing about it is the spontaneity of it, the chaos that they so much fear, the lack of planning and the intrusion on alchemy. They will not reject the message as much as the form because it is the form what has crystallized the status quo but beyond the form there is nothing but pain and feebleness. They tend to fall apart without the form, they forget who they are supposed to be which is why they must keep wearing the Barbie uniform at all times.

The message itself: “you are pimping for a narcissistic sociopath” will be taken with white gloves and thrown outside the gate before they enter.
They will then justify the wonders of pimping so that one can walk around the rose garden and the Academy, like an Angel in a God’s pantheon. They’ll continue to justify it for a long time but between the creeks of such feebleness, the fact that they were assaulted with such lowly things as huge black signs calling them PIMPS will slowly enter the deepest corners of their being and dig at the reality of the statement.

“Somebody knows what’s going on”, “what I’m doing here” and no matter how many times they continue to go to dinners with Robert, reality will look at them in the face and confirm what they know is true: the more they gain the capacity to see reality for what it is, they more they’ll verify the truth.

Of course they’ll get angry and that’ll be wonderful because anger will connect them to themselves. If they are properly brainwashed, it will connect them to their false personality and they’ll become so evil and vicious they’ll try to get rid of the problem like you itstwinetime, trying to attack the person without dealing with the issues, but if they’ve still got a glimpse of themselves inside, that anger will question them once and again and again until the shallow ink of made up well being, the layer of superficial alchemy of their lives, washes off and leaves reality for what it is: the feebleness of years and years of pretending to live a life with made up problems: a fucking guru sucking out your life; hiding behind a sick narcissist’s skirt and making up a life because one was too lazy and too afraid to deal with one’s own. If they are lucky they’ll know that all those of us who are out have gone through such ordeal and survived and that they too can survive. That is the other difficulty that needs to be looked at: the fact that we, cult members, simply gave away our lives, that we paid for the set up.

There is nothing similar between cults and us. Or if you’d rather, between me and Robert. We stand at the opposite end of the spectrum. He offers a made up reality without yourself, I stand for the simplicity of reality with your self in it hopefully without too much complaining and no downers! I promise not to pay anyone to carry me.

The greatest difficulty of our times is that people don’t wish to deal with difficulties which is the best aspect of anyone’s life: the capacity to deal with the hand one’s been given. The “difficulties” are imaginary, a label to justify the fear of doing what is required. Cults are like rats in a kitchen. They need to be taken out. It’s not a huge thing to deal with, just something that needs to be taken care of!

Cults are energy suckers that are justifying the attitude that people cannot take care of their lives and that it is better to give your self up and let someone else make the decisions. That’s what makes members so feeble. Feebleness industries are not healthy for mankind. They undermine their product! They steal its potential. Instead of fortifying people to respond to life with dignity, with consciousness, it weakens us so badly that in the feebleness we allow others to rape us, separate us from our loved ones, mankind and our very own presence.

It is a lovely thing to be so present that one could die at the hands of no matter who, looking at death straight in the eyes. There is nothing heroic about being one’s self, one’s self doesn’t need adjectives to be. Should death meet one at the door, it should be met with the same simplicity of another visitor.

Death will come to all of us, if we render our selves incapable of responding with dignity to life, we won’t be able to face death with the necessary integrity.

It is not us itstwinetime who are enemies, it is our lives what cannot prosper in the same space and time. I know the pimps inside very well because I became one of them and married the best of them. Their fear of themselves is so deep that all I’m doing is confirming what they know they are and reminding them that besides being pimps, they can also be simple human beings. Would you send them the invitation?

Are you able to dialogue? Being able to dialogue is a sign of “manhoodness”. Can you jump beyond the negativity and bring your self forward and talk? You’d be most welcome! That is the great difference between the Institution you stand for and us!

I am not ashamed of the length of time that I’ve given you. It’s with enormous pleasure that I offer you my time. Have a good evening!

292. WhaleRider - July 29, 2009

itswinetime:

“Continuing to harp on that same theme, without starting to investigate your utter NEED to continue in the same vein…THAT “dear friends” is the very definition of a wasted life, mentally speaking.”

And what of your wasted life then, harping on us? Surely you MUST have something better to do with your time.

293. Yesri Baba - July 30, 2009

Nice try Jomo. It is purta near impossible to turn the aircraft carrier around, guess we just need to keep pulling on the rudder controls with none of our might.

294. in2it - July 30, 2009

“For those who stubbornly seek freedom, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the system of ‘brainwashing under freedom’ to which we are subjected and which all too often we serve as willing or unwitting instruments.”

– Noam Chomsky


“Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. As such it is used pejoratively. Instruction in the basic principles of science, in particular, can not properly be called indoctrination, in the sense that the fundamental principles of science call for critical self-evaluation and sceptical scrutiny of one’s own ideas.”

– wikipedia

295. Jomo Piñata - July 30, 2009

289/Tatyana,

“Our Teacher is a being, aware of “nothing in particular”: Welcome to FOF!”

I agree with you, not an effective recruitment device. It should be adopted at once. Let’s see if we can get the meme to stick!

293/Yesri,

Remember that homeless barge laden with New York City’s garbage that no nation would allow to land, back in the summer of 1988? I think it’s a symbol of some sort!

296. X-ray - July 30, 2009

289. Tatyana – July 29, 2009

‘… I am “AN AWARE OF THINGS” being, I am your teacher.”

He is aware of how much money in his bank account.
He is aware of who is not current on the teaching payment.
He is aware of who has the money in the FOF.
He is aware of all new boys who joins FOF.

So yes, HE IS AWARE OF CERTAIN THINGS, and he is your teacher.

297. fofblogmoderator - July 30, 2009

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