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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 75 June 29, 2009

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. 411 - June 29, 2009

“Dear friend,

In an attempt to prevent me from talking to others about my
experiences with him, Robert has forbidden me to come to Renaissance (or Apollo). I write this letter for those who are interested.

When I came to Renaissance in the spring of 1986 I had been in the
school for one year. In the center I had been told numerous stories
by the center directors as to how a great, almost saintly person the
Teacher was. Having come to the Fellowship needy of emotional and spiritual support I was willing to believe these reports at face
value.

After a few weeks of living at Renaissance, following a heavy
drinking ’symposium’, Robert took me inside of one of the Academy rooms and wanted to have sex with me.

When I told him that I did not want this because I had no homosexual feelings, nor did I want to see myself assume those practices, Robert dismissed my arguments by saying that I should externally consider him as my teacher.

Partly out of fear for this ‘all powerful’ being, partly not to want
to feel guilty or judged, but largely because of the energy with
which Robert approached me, I was left with the feeling I had no
choice.

While Robert went about his business of trying to stimulate an orgasm from me which he was going to receive orally I pointed out to him that I was covering my face with my hands out of shame. Robert retorted that this was a good opportunity for work for me.

This was the beginning of my functioning as a sexual servant which lasted for several years.

In order to bear my plight I kept on telling myself that it was my
play to transform this kind of suffering and that learning selfless
servitude might eventually benefit my soul. I also tried to stimulate
in me the belief that since Robert was conscious, being in his
presence had to basically be a good thing.

Robert tried to assure me that what was going on between us was the wish of C-Influence, and that the worst thing I could do was to
resist their plans. He also explained his attraction to men not as
homosexuality but as the result of his being an angel and a cosmos above men, just like men’s attraction to women stemmed, he would add, from men being in a cosmos above women.

It was when I eventually met a woman (soon to become my wife) who cared enough to point out to me that it was up to me to take
responsibility for my life, that I found the third force needed to
let Robert know that I did not want to continue serving him in this
fashion.

He got very upset over this and from one day to the other what he had called ‘love’ turned into hostility, resentment, and a total ignoring of us as his students. It was here that it became really clear to me that I had never been a ‘friend’ or a ’student’ but had been used for one sole purpose: Robert’s sexual gratification. There had been no love, let alone conscious love.

In the five years that followed we have never been allowed to have
dinner with our ‘Teacher’, nor were we given consideration when we asked for help during great medical expenses while working on salary at Renaissance.

During this period Robert did, however, call me numerous times on the phone asking me if I would again ‘come in his mouth’ (his words), for which he would, among other things, offer to pay my voice lessons, knowing that these were important to me and that I had a hard time finding funding for them. Needless to say, at this point I never as much responded to his requests or ‘offers’.

Much effort has been directed towards covering up information such as which is disclosed in this letter. There has also been a collective buffering among Fellowship members as regards Robert’s practices.

How can people who pride themselves in having evolved levels of being tolerate this? I am convinced that many of the prevailing attitudes in the Fellowship are based on religious faith, such as those regarding unverifiable issues like Robert’s consciousness; the
Fellowship being an arc [sic] for a new civilization; the division of
humanity into ’students’ and ‘life people’, and the alleged spiritual
superiority of Fellowship members over non-members.

I hope that you will have the courage to challenge your attitudes and see them for what they are. For the sake of your evolution.

Your friend,

s/WP*
(*name withheld by request)”

excerpt from:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ArkansasBob/message/9

2. Ames Gilbert - June 29, 2009

I’ve been told that the “David Springfield letter” was introduced in Federal (Eastern District) Court in Sacramento a couple of weeks ago. This is the RICO action Edith Minne and Bonnie Lohmann brought against ex-FoF followers, Huib Stroomberg and Traci Southwell and the Stroomberg Investment Group (heard by Judge Mendez). Wouldnt You Like To Know kindly told us about this in post #67-143, with a link to the actual Appeal Democrat article.

I have to wonder why this letter would be introduced to the court. Abraham Goldman, in the A–D article, claimed that the case had nothing to do with the Fellowship, so I assume that the defendant is somehow trying to link the action with the FoF, specifically them leaving the FoF, and so draw them into the case? To undermine the credibility of the FoF lawyers (one of whom I believe is David Springfield himself?
The second thing is, if this letter has indeed been introduced as evidence of some sort, then it has become a public record, and not only that, presumably sworn and attested to as being the truth by at least the defendants? Savvy readers who know the implications, please help out!

Here is the article for anyone interested. Note that Traci Southwell does make the link, according to the reporter…

Fellowship members allege investment fraud:
By Ryan McCarthy/Appeal-Democrat
Worthless investments in what were said to be oceanfront developments in France and the Dominican Republic were sold to Fellowship of Friends members by an Oregon House company, a lawsuit contends.
“False representations, misstatements of facts and material omissions” were made to gain as much money as possible from two Fellowship members so the Stroomwell Investment Group in Oregon House would avoid defaulting on the developments, the suit states.
The filing Thursday in federal court in Sacramento does not specifically name the Fellowship. But attorney Abraham Goldman, who represents two women who invested a total of $350,000, said “it’s a fair deduction” that the Fellowship is the Yuba County church described in the court filing.
The suit asserts that church members Bonnie Lohman invested $170,000 and Edith Minne $180,000 in 2007. Funds totaling more than $100,000 were also solicited from at least eight additional church members, according to the suit.
The money was obtained “without any intent or reasonable expectation” to repay, according to the suit, which seeks a court order requiring payment of all funds lost by the two women.
Oregon House resident Traci Southwell, 36, named in the lawsuit along with Huib Stroomberg and the Stroomwell Investment Group, disputes the suit’s assertions.
“All the paperwork is going to prove that’s not true,” Southwell said.
The development projects are affected by a slowdown in sales due to global economic conditions, she said.
“I’m shocked about this,” Southwell said of the lawsuit, which she added “discourages people from investing internationally.” She linked the lawsuit filed Thursday to her and Huib Stroomberg leaving the Fellowship last summer.
Goldman responded that “Huib and Traci leaving has absolutely nothing to do with this lawsuit.”
“Nobody bears any grudge against them of any kind,” Goldman said. “Where’s the money?” the attorney said. “That’s the question.”
No accounting has been made of what the investments were used for, he said.
“Within a month of taking the funds from my clients the contractor on this job went into bankruptcy,” Goldman said. Negligible work was done on the development in France, he said.
Southwell describes that project as nine seaview condominiums that is three-quarters complete.
About 15 investors are involved with the projects in France and the Dominican Republic, she said. Southwell said she is an investor as well as the bookkeeper for Stroomwell.
“She took her money out of the stock market and now has a hard asset,” Southwell sad.
Southwell called the women who filed the suit “two people I love very much.” Oregon House is already dealing with tensions between Fellowship members and those who don’t belong to the religious organizations, Southwell added.
“I don’t think our little community can handle any more this kind of stuff,” she said.
Southwell said of the Fellowship, “The people themselves are just wonderful — kind, educated people interested in spirituality.”
She declined to discuss the reasons she and Stroomberg left the group.
The Fellowship began in 1970, according to its Web site, which states that the group was founded in the Fourth Way tradition, also known as “esoteric Christianity.”
Contact Appeal-Democrat reporter Ryan McCarthy at 749-4707

3. elena - June 29, 2009

Post 1 “Robert tried to assure me that what was going on between us was the wish of C-Influence, and that the worst thing I could do was to resist their plans. He also explained his attraction to men not as
homosexuality but as the result of his being an angel and a cosmos above men, just like men’s attraction to women stemmed, he would add, from men being in a cosmos above women.”

I also continue to find it amazing how easily we women submitted to the third and fourth-class treatment of the Fellowship. It is a lot less surprising that men succumbed to the temptation of being treated like women in the cult. For they were dressed up like Barbies and made to play the part of passive men ready to get laid but at the same time the “macho superior being” was handled out. Women never stood a chance. It would be very interesting to hear other women talk about what in us allowed for the blatant humiliation for so many years? And what in men allowed for the seduced rape. Perhaps the fact that everyone was humiliated one way or another made us equals? Is it not interesting that by annihilating the sense of one’s self in all the members, we completely supported his majesty? He annihilated us as individiual but granted small positions of power that seduced those who considered themselves the inner circle. What did it mean to be in Robert Burton’s private sexual inner circle and what in Robert Burton’s cult inner circle? What was that separation about? Why did it work in our already schizophrenic culture?

“Men being a cosmos above women?” Does that make children a cosmos above men?

But they do find it ever so enticing, the men of the Fellowship, to be considered a cosmos above women. It justified one and each of their abuses in their private lives. Just as in life.

X-Ray, thank you for the news that we’re just a few clicks away from catching this freak, I hope such prediction makes all of Robert’s worth the time!

4. WhaleRider - June 29, 2009

elena:
“And what in men allowed for the seduced rape.”

We are talking about a cult in which a person, such as me, willingly relinquishes power to an authority figure, such as Burton, to validate and assume control over the course of the person’s evolution with promises of immortality.

The Guru Papers points out that submission to an authority figure (even his holiness Obama) creates powerful ecstatic feelings that are addictive.

Once that power is given to another person for a length of time, the door is open for corruption and abuse.

Women also fall prey to this same situation.

When a follower’s head is kept “in the clouds”, half a tablespoon of semen seems to pale in the face of eternity.

PS. “Taboo” sex, money and power are also addictive. Addiction usually defies reason.

For a gay man, men are a cosmos above women. For a straight man, women are a cosmos above men.

5. elena - June 29, 2009

I guess the question is: Do men in the Fellowship of Friends allow Robert to treat them like Barbies ready to get laid because that is how they had themselves accepted to treat women and under a gay man’s feminity it fitted?

And the other men who never get laid but accept positions of power in which they can dominate and control others so that the collective rape can take place, what are they playing with? Those and the one’s who set themselves up to make it look legitimate?

Yes, we were all naive, we believed in the freaking story but what in us is so sick to believe in the freaking story when the rape went on in front of our faces every day of our lives?

When we look at all other cults the mechanism seems to be the same: a collective institutionalized group of people willing to provide the King bee with male or female “meat” that is separated from the institutionalized dogma of no matter what cult. The same attitude of “insignificant meat” that women have held for centuries in the patriarchal society.

It’s not about feminism which I find as distasteful as machism but this freaking phenomenon needs to be looked at with a macrocosmic magnifying glass. It’s not about what men have done to women, it’s about what we have done to each other and how we’ve managed to make not only women but men horrifyingly miserable because there is no happiness in Robert Burton, Girard Haven or anyone in any cult. We are talking about SICK with capitals.

6. elena - June 29, 2009

“For a gay man, men are a cosmos above women. For a straight man, women are a cosmos above men.”

Hi Whalerider, hadn’t seen your post, thanks. Your last sentence I’m afraid is far from the truth. For a “man” a woman might be the complimentary cosmos that gives unity to the Universe but for the “straight” men of our schizophrenic and corrupted society, women are things that they can and do treat as objects. The second class treatment of women is still a reality in our times in so very many societies that the few in which it is changing are worth observing. I’ve not yet met enough of a man that allowed me to verify that this isn’t so. Each and all my husbands who I loved and loved me, were unfortunately so tainted with the macho colors that they just couldn’t get themselves to stretch out beyond them. Our conflicts, our everyday life misunderstandings and suffering have definite reasons.

Is Obama already a holiness up there? What a strong tendency for cults! I haven’t kept up with him in much detail but get to know little things here and there and if he’s becoming a holiness I’ll be happy to watch out but nevertheless, he is using images that were not common in our societies. Can he fill them with the same integrity that he pretends to offer? I do not know of any other president that offered a place to his wife within his role like he is doing with Mrs. Obama. It’s what Mr. Haven was unwilling to do for any of his wives or Robert for any of his lovers. It is beautiful from the little I’ve seen and I hope he is a man worthy of new times. He seems to do it with dignity. If it turns out that it was just a show, it won’t mean that it isn’t worth a man’s gesture.

7. brucelevy - June 29, 2009

5. elena

“Do men in the Fellowship of Friends allow Robert to treat them like Barbies ready to get laid because that is how they had themselves accepted to treat women and under a gay man’s femininity it fitted?”

Very good point.

“And the other men who never get laid but accept positions of power in which they can dominate and control others so that the collective rape can take place, what are they playing with? Those and the one’s who set themselves up to make it look legitimate?”

This is also a good point. Both bare thinking about. Also the one’s who “don’t get laid” (I assume you mean by Robert Earl Burton) frequently ascend in power by pimping, which, to me, is at least an equal crime, if not worse.

8. brucelevy - June 29, 2009

Compassion in the Fellowship of Friends/ Pathway to Hemmoroids: exploitation of the weak, the confused, the gullible and the trusting. Live on two hundred a month while the Princess builds his Egyptian Louisiana whore house. Wake up you dumb fucks.

9. WhaleRider - June 29, 2009

elena:
Please think about what I said before you disagree with me so quickly.

That which completes us (gay or straight) is going to seem from a “higher” cosmos than that which does not complete us. Why else do you think christians feel homosexuality is a sin and consider straight marriage sacred?

Now I happen to agree with you that men and women are equals on a cosmic level and in my life women have thankfully played an enormous role.

But don’t fool yourself, women treat men as objects, too.

10. elena - June 29, 2009

Thanks for clarifying the point Bruce.

Whalerider, so we both treat each other as objects? How. Why. When. Where.

I could agree with you that unconsciousness is not a male or a female issue and yet we are not under a matriarchal society so the statement at hand is relevant within this society. In the attempt to reach a more balanced life I think we can cut a great deal of blanket before we reach any definite conclusions but in as much as women continue to occupy second class positions in society it is still the rule that abusing them is a justifiable act in men’s mentality. Even Mr. Haven thought hitting women was perfectly legitimate, in fact, he once remarked that it was very common in the United States and all around Oregon House. If he hadn’t been so surprised by the fact that I was willing to throw the house out the window and include him and myself with it every time he attempted to, he might not have stopped! The problem is not that we didn’t love each other, the problem is that no matter how much we loved each other we couldn’t have made each other more miserable.

In a way being treated like an object happens any time one feels one was used. People who are kind because they have a particular agenda then turn around and slap one because one surprised them with one’s own!! But if we could place the discussion amongst other realms in what it is that is lacking so badly and why, we might actually strike a chord. One of the things I find so interesting about life is that so many things seem to be running parallel to each other that apparently contradict themselves and at the same time simply compliment each other.

I have the feeling that what we are after is not how women or men prevail over one another but how women and men not only reach for each other but reach into each other’s realm. The emotional and the intellectual or the “soulness” and the spiritual, the private and the social and not the severe separations between the two. It is not just the issue of women and men but of the feminine and the masculine or the ying and yang and how they are in themselves objective realities within which we live, how we each reach out and live within those spheres.

Whalerider, you mention homosexuality for Christians and I don’t quite catch your point.
It is beautiful to be with a man or woman when one is not a slave of the soul. I wonder if I could actually state that homosexuality is the great protest of the soul but in all my bisexuality I don’t believe it is a given but a brought forth. It tends to exacerbate conditions. Is there anyone more painfully pathetic than Robert Burton running after purity in male childlike bodies? Is this a condition that we dare call human? Or painfully inhuman for him as much as for everyone in contact with him?
Of course, at the other end of the spectrum, is there anyone more painfully pathetic than Girard Haven running after the purity of childlike females? Is that in any way less painful? They don’t just have that in common they are both pathologically anti social but interestingly enough we could almost verify that while Robert lives in the emotional and annihilated any reasoning, Girard lives in the Intellect and annihilated the emotional. But in their extreme, one is no less dangerous than the other. Robert justifies and promotes the death of morality and Girard simply kills it. He is after all his most faithful servant. The gay man moved into an emotionality that the heterosexual “straight” man couldn’t reach but to be able to do so they each had to severe a whole aspect of themselves and with it, a whole world had to perish. The creation of the cult was the coherent result of annihilating the rest of the world and an aspect of themselves with it. Both of them knew that they had sacrificed a great deal to be where they got. All of Girard’s emotionality is based on his love for Robert and the Fellowship as totally abstract entities. Wives, children, people are simply objects that must serve the ideal. All of Robert’s mindlessness is based on placing himself out of this world: ““I am God!” and as a God can use and abuse all the realms below me, Love, Robert Burton.” It is not the facts that matter but the ideals. They took their suffering and made a world without “life” that could idealize their condition. Cults are platonic versions of our corrupt societies. Idealized organizations meant to justify our accepted deformities. They are the suffering of mankind’s youth.

This “purity” in their search must be taken into consideration if we are ever to have any compassion for such men… and women. They are simply, like the rest of us, faithful products of their time and circumstances.

Thank you all for your patience with the length of my posts and for allowing me to look at what I’ve seen.

11. Just the Facts Ma'am - June 29, 2009

74/301. veramente
‘I hate to think that RB could escape in Egypt without paying his dues to the INS, IRS, and criminal justice. He is not alone of course, he has got lots of helpers who could be facing charges for breaking the law and covering up for him and themselves in many ways.’

People have been, or can be, tried in absentia for criminal activity. Then there are extradition treaties. REB is already persona non grata (person not acceptable) in various jurisdictions around the world. Pretty soon the only opportunity will be to leave the planet to escape.

12. Just the Facts Ma'am - June 29, 2009

75/2. Ames Gilbert:
‘I have to wonder why this letter would be introduced to the court.’

Possibly to implicate the plaintiffs (and the Fellowship of Friends, Robert Earl Burton, and/or Abraham Goldman, Associates) of the very same criminal activity (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO)), that the defendants are accused of, to the legal justice system.

13. Just the Facts Ma'am - June 29, 2009

Minne et al v. Stroomberg et al
District Court: CA Eastern
Judge: Mendez
Type of Lawsuit: Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO)
Cause of Action: Federal Question
Plaintiff: Edith Minne, Bonnie Lohmann
Defendant: Huib Stroomberg, Traci Southwell, Stroomwell Investment Group, Inc.
Case Number: 2:2009cv00625
Filed: March 5, 2009
Amount Demanded: $350,000.00
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-caedce/case_no-2:2009cv00625/case_id-189030/

14. Just the Facts Ma'am - June 29, 2009

Minne et al v. Stroomberg et al
District Court: CA Eastern
Judge: Mendez
Type of Lawsuit: Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO)
Cause of Action: Federal Question
Plaintiff: Edith Minne, Bonnie Lohmann
Defendant: Huib Stroomberg, Traci Southwell, Stroomwell Investment Group, Inc.
Case Number: 2:2009at00345
Filed: March 5, 2009
Amount Demanded: $350,000,000.00
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-caedce/case_no-2:2009at00345/case_id-189011/

15. nigel harris price - June 29, 2009

…..to Elena, Whalerider and Bruce…..

I feel I have re-entered the blog at an interesting adjunct…..how men treat women; how women treat men and the “mesmerism” of homosexuality as it ic ‘carried on’ in the Cult called The Fellowship of Friends.

Let me tell you a little of my own experience…..I probably never got married into a Fellowship Bond, since I never had, or made, enough money to be a ‘providing husband’…..that would be the main point, I suppose…..although I would say that, with the features of Naivete, Vanity and Fear, I might have become prey for one of those Corporate Vixen types that seemed to prevail, if not so much in California, then definitely in the Fellowship.

I suppose if anything was marriage material, it was my ‘marriage’ to my craft-form, which I now treat with even more determination than I did back in the 1980’s, when I was in California. I was scared rigid, even though I was attracted to several women, both in the London Centre, and visiting, of having to get betrothed, wedded, then sent off to Florence or Paris to ‘experience art’, while I was attempting to save money working 7 days a week in Chorleywood to pay for going to California and pursuing my precious-metal training there.

Maybe the point I am trying to make is this…..sex is not only the interraction of men with women, men with men or women with women, but, if the works of the 44 (or more?) Conscious Beings is anything to go by, then there become “offspring of the soul”, which are ‘sexuality encompassed in an art form’. Even when I think about how it could have been different for my play, had the right woman come along earlier in my life, I know it could not have been that way, since there had to be that ‘awakening of my essence possibilities’, the dying to ‘kernel of my being’ and the ‘pheonixing of my maturity’ as a craft-teacher (according to Gurdjieff, there is no other Way of Evolution). Maybe this is an ‘aside’ issue for most of you, but it is something I would dearly like to discuss…..Nigel.

16. Ames Gilbert - June 30, 2009

For the sake of completeness, I’m adding the rest of the correspondence between Abe and myself to the post I made on the last page (#74-232). I say ‘the rest’ because Abraham has stopped talking to me for now; maybe he’ll continue in the future. (This round of correspondence started when I called him June 24th to verify that the e-mail he sent to Godlike Productions was true, complete and correct. He said several times he’d send me a copy, which he hasn’t done so far).
In Abraham’s e-mail, he wrote the words [Abraham Goldman] himself as he inserted his answers into my letter to him, to make the reading easier. Thanks, Abe.

On Jun 24, 2009, at 5:08 PM, Abraham Goldman wrote:
Dear Ames:

In years past, we were friends, and I don’t recall us ever having any negative feelings for each other. I really don’t want to go down that slippery slope, with you, or with anyone, for any reason.

I really don’t take personally all of the blame and negativity thrown at me on the blog and other sites. It would take lifetimes.

I don’t have much time left before leaving the office today, so I will get back to you at more length tomorrow.

Please see a few comments below so you can see at least I did have time to read your letter, even if quickly.

Abe

From: Ames Gilbert [mailto:nancyames@accessbee.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:02 PM
To: Abraham Goldman
Subject: Re: Ames Gilbert’s e-mail address

Abe,
I guess you’re kidding, right, about the rights of folks to communicate with their lawyers?
[Abraham Goldman] Not at all. I spent most of the last 32 years fighting for underdogs who had already been turned away by other lawyers.
You’d more profitably spend your time, in my opinion, asking President Obama why he continues to support, and indeed expand on, the Bush doctrine of the infallible, unaccountable presidency which apparently has the right to lock anyone (U.S. citizen or no) away without recourse or representation, indefinitely.
[Abraham Goldman] I agree with this 100% if he is still allowing it.
My research indicates that the government also believes it has an absolute right to listen in on anyone’s telephone and e-mail conversations, without even the minimal fig-leaf of FISA.
[Abraham Goldman] Ditto.
Getting down to your role as the Fellowship of Friends lawyer, you know and I know that you, the Board of the Fellowship of Friends, and the senior Council members believe that all followers have a higher duty to whatever Burton decides than to the law of the land, let alone conscience. This is why you continue to defend and protect the illegal acts that have been a central part of the history of the FoF for almost as long as it has existed.
[Abraham Goldman] I joined 1979; started legal work about 1981. Carl Mautz did all the work before that. If you ask Carl if he has a ethical duty to protect privilege, I think he will say yes.
I myself have heard Burton claim he is representative of some higher morality and that he is not subject to the laws the rest of us labor under, man-made or physical. You believe (or pretend to believe) exactly that, and certainly your actions are not those of a free, independent legal professional who follows his conscience, then the law of the land, then the interests of his client, in that order.
[Abraham Goldman] This sentence has about 6 parts: too many to reply to all at once. I have my own view of Robert, which anyone can share or disagree with.
I’ve looked closely (!) at the Wikileaks article, and I can see no words there that indicate that I posted the letter to their site. It just uses my name and telephone number as a contact. I can’t even find a way to communicate to them that I’d like my name removed. So, like the letter itself, my name is ‘out there’ for the time being. Tough luck for you, tough luck for me!
[Abraham Goldman] If you had no connection to it, we will talk further.
Look, Abraham, the posting to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion Blog came as complete a surprise to me as it (probably) came to you. You and David Springfield are probably cursing Black Marker, whoever he/she is; I am blessing him/her. The letter seemed truthful and sincere. I have no way of verifying that, but the circumstances, wording, and my general knowledge of how the FoF and Burton works made it seem more likely than not that it was true.
[Abraham Goldman] Like I said before, Ames, the issue for me is the privilege between attorney and client. WordPress took this seriously. So did the Archives. The Godlike people seem to like to fight. I just believe, and the whole legal system, opposed to anarchy & tyranny, rests on a layperson’s right to talk to a lawyer when needed. It’s the same as spousal communications and other privileges.
You and I and a host of others know that the general gist and particular infractions the author listed are TRUE. The more you fight to cover it up, the more threats you make (and I’m not referring to just this letter, Abe, as you know), the more credence people are going to give to the whole affair. In your letter to the Godlike Productions website, you practically admit that the contents of the letter are true and valid. In your dubious claims (in my personal opinion, but then I’m no lawyer) of client-attorney privilege, you practically admit it. In the court of public opinion, you have admitted it. Because the claims made in the letter are, as you well know, grounded in fact; all you have left to do is defend the reputation of the Fellowship. Nothing can change the TRUTH, the facts of the case, but you can try to change public (and intra-Fellowship) perceptions of the truth. But, Abe, you are not succeeding, not by a mile, with the course you have chosen to take.
[Abraham Goldman] I did not write the letter. Right now, I am defending the right of clients and lawyers to personal confidentiality. There is too much other ground you cover above, so it will need to wait
If you can find a way for me to communicate with the editors/organizers of Wikileaks on this subject, I’d be happy to ask them to remove my name. I sure don’t want to attract the fate of Thomas Becket after the Maximum Leader of his time, Henry II (who also claimed to be anointed by God,) asked rhetorically, “Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?”
[Abraham Goldman] Well, history, or at least T.S. Elliott, gave Becket the better of the deal, yes? And Henry lost France eventually, and didn’t exactly have a happy family life.
More to the point, I am also trying to communicate with the Wikileaks people. We certainly agree that is not easy. I will be happy to add to my efforts that you want to have your name removed, and share with you on that.
Who made you the lucky one in the first place? Maybe they can get their own post withdrawn?
I wish you well,
[Abraham Goldman] And I you, Ames.
Ames

Ames’ reply June 26, 2009:
Hello Abe,
thank you for taking the time to comment on parts of my letter.
I agree with you that confidentiality of client/attorney communications should be sacrosanct– unless the client and attorney are engaged in a criminal enterprise or engaged in covering up evidence of a criminal enterprise.
I support any efforts you make to protect client/attorney relations, except for the above.
I point out again that the government disregards safeguards for privileged communications pretty much as it darn well pleases, and that our lawmakers and the U.S. public appear to support them–except when such disregard effects them personally. Efforts to change that are worthy, in my opinion.

I don’t have any negative feelings for you, though I don’t recall us being particular friends; what little friendship there was disappeared the moment you sent Ingram, the Scientology ‘investigator’, to threaten my family. There were many people in the Fellowship who I had nodding acquaintances with, but few that were deep friends, and they have all left. Nevertheless, I feel that I contributed to some members staying far longer than they should, and so I try to make amends.

I believe that the Fellowship of Friends is based on spiritual and economic fraud, and that this emanates from the center, Robert Burton. He believes, as do most of the followers, that he is exceptional. This exceptionalism leads him to act outside the law, and to cause others to act outside the law; hence the dereliction of duties by the Board of Directors, the inurement, the tax-avoidance and income sheltering schemes, the misuse of visas, and so on.

I believe that one of my civic duties is to help expose crime if I’m made aware of it; that not doing so implicates me in the crime as a knowing accessory to that crime. The law of the land suggests the same. I believe that the same duties apply to any attorney, even the attorney for an exceptionalist like Burton. Apparently, this is the core of any disagreement we may have. You appear to believe that any ends justifies the means of protecting Burton and other officers, I believe that the means shape the end.

Abe, you are entering the final phases of your life, as I am, as Burton is. What legacy do you want to leave for your children?

Again, I wish you well,
Ames

P.S., you mention the client/attorney relationship many times. In the letter to Godlike Productions (which you promised to cc to me, by the way), who is your client?

17. Ames Gilbert - June 30, 2009

Just the Facts Ma’am (#75-14 or thereabouts), thanks.
I had to go to the link to verify the ‘Amount Demanded’. No typo, it really is 350 million dollars! (Did Burton himself suggest that brobdingnagian figure?) However, it appears that all the on-line documents are password–protected. Does anyone happen to know: if I go in person to the courthouse in Sacramento, will I be able to view any documents that are a matter of public record, and better still, make copies? I just have a strong feeling that the “David Springfield Letter” is, as of this moment, on public record, and that Abraham Goldman has been, and is, “snowing” us all the while.

18. ton - June 30, 2009

thanks nigel,
granted the differences between the genders makes life more interesting…. and complex. speaking of which…

elena wrote:
“…In the attempt to reach a more balanced life I think we can cut a great deal of blanket before we reach any definite conclusions but in as much as women continue to occupy second class positions in society it is still the rule that abusing them is a justifiable act in men’s mentality. Even Mr. Haven thought hitting women was perfectly legitimate, in fact, he once remarked that it was very common….”

elena,
it sounds like you have reached some ‘definite conclusions’ — i would suggest that there is still a lot of ‘blanket to be cut.’ as a man i have to take issue with your sweeping assessment here; abusing women in any way shape or form IS NOT ‘a justifiable act.’ making broad, generalized and grandiose statements is bound to lead you to err… find an expection to ‘the rule’ and you can begin to disprove it… isn’t that what we should be doing here afterall? that is, finding ways to disprove and dissolve the unjust rule? to think in terms that obliterate and disregard individuality and individual differences in favor of a generalized abstraction is a blindness, it’s lazy and even contains the whiff of subliminal / mental violence. without a deeper reflection, speaking from cultural conditioning is difficult to see, much less avoid… and then individual experiences tend to seemingly ‘validate’ or otherwise give credence to cultural conditioning. unfortunately when ‘we’ have conditioned expectations about what we’ll encounter in life, usually that’s what we find…. i hope your expectations in this regard might change. i know, letting go can be the hardest thing sometimes… you expected the extraordinary from your mr. haven — what you got instead was the ‘very common’ and brutish behavior of a programmed automaton. but with an open mind and an open heart you’ll experience and learn to see exceptions to ‘the rule’ (as you put it). experiencing small exceptions will begin to dissolve ‘the rule’ and may help cleanse the filters of your perception, change the way you see life.

the following excerpt is from a film about agnes martin who has an interesting perspective, she speaks from a woman’s experience with the benefit of many years…. you might like to hear her words on inspiration…. may this open a space for that in your life:

on inspiration:
“the worst thing you can think about is yourself…. you start to make mistakes…. i gave up all theories… i don’t have any ideas myself…. i don’t believe anybody elses’ so that leaves me with a clear mind… you want an empty mind so that when something comes into it you can see it….”

19. X-ray - June 30, 2009

16. Ames Gilbert – June 30, 2009

‘I don’t have any negative feelings for you, though I don’t recall us being particular friends; what little friendship there was disappeared the moment you sent Ingram, the Scientology ‘investigator’, to threaten my family.’

GOLDMAN’S PLACE IN JAIL AS WELL!

Ames, would you care to share a little more about what exactly happened there?

‘I believe that one of my civic duties is to help expose crime if I’m made aware of it; that not doing so implicates me in the crime as a knowing accessory to that crime.’

Very good point, applies to every one.

20. elena - June 30, 2009

Hi Ton,
“…In the attempt to reach a more balanced life I think we can cut a great deal of blanket before we reach any definite conclusions but in as much as women continue to occupy second class positions in society it is still the rule that abusing them is a justifiable act in men’s mentality.”

yes, I meant that WHERE women continue to occupy second class positions in society, IT IS STILL THE RULE, that abusing them is a justifiable act in the mentality of the men that live in that sphere. I am specifically talking about those men and not all the men and you are right, it is not well clarified.

Interesting that you would be so careful in noticing THAT slip and not:
I have the feeling that what we are after is not how women or men prevail over one another but how women and men not only reach for each other but reach into each other’s realm. The emotional and the intellectual or the “soulness” and the spiritual, the private and the social and not the severe separations between the two. It is not just the issue of women and men but of the feminine and the masculine or the ying and yang and how they are in themselves objective realities within which we live, how we each reach out and live within those spheres.”

THAT is beautiful and I’m ever so glad I managed to express it! Too bad you missed it!

I find it notoriously significant that you have not gotten the gist of the post and all you can comment on is a small aspect of it reducing everything else to the grandiose generalizations? Not a pinch of the things that really mattered about it and opened roads?

The question goes much further Ton and it is not about separating men and women but about finding what separates us privately as much as socially. For example, the fact that you express the same laziness you quote me on by pinpointing only an insignificant portion of the whole post, doesn’t tell me you are any more considerate than the rest. There are many more significant points in that post and it is a big eye opener even for me who’ve been working on understanding what happened to us all long enough. The connection between Robert and Girard’s sexuality and their social behavior is of enormous significance and the fact that you willingly missed it simply tells me about your own impediments, not the limitations of the post.

Whenever anyone of us does something like this, that is, buffer ninety percent of a post and put the person and the post down with an insignificant ten percent of what we perceived, we ARE ACTUALLY buffering something that touched us deeply. What was it that you couldn’t look at?

You want me to give up all my theories and change my whole perspective on life? Settle for yours or for none? Well, Robert wanted that too and I’ve learn me lesson!

21. elena - June 30, 2009

and I’ve learnT me lesson!

22. WhaleRider - June 30, 2009

elena:
Thanks for the non-hostile dialog. I appreciate it.

From Wikipedia:

Objectification commonly refers to the regarding of a person as ‘a thing’. For example, sexual objectification refers to the regarding of a person as merely a non-human object, or tool, for sex.

Philosopher Martha Nussbaum has argued that the objectification of something can be determined by the presence of the following factors:

Instrumentality – treating as a tool for one’s own purposes;
Denial of autonomy – treating as if lacking in agency or self-determination;
Inertness – treating as if lacking in agency;
Ownership – treating as if owned by another;
Fungibility – treating as if interchangeable;
Violability – treating as if permissible to smash;
and the denial of subjectivity – treating as if there is no need to show concern for the ‘object’s’ feelings and experiences.”

People objectify each other regardless of sex or sexual orientation.

Advertising objectifies people in order to sell products or services, and you will undoubtedly see more objectification of men by women in affluent societies where women have control over their own disposable income.

23. brucelevy - June 30, 2009

17. Ames Gilbert

I viewed two different but similar documents. One said 350,000 and one said 350,000,000. I think the larger one was a typo, as the smaller figure is pretty lose to the amount lost by investors.

24. Opus 111 - June 30, 2009

Elena:
You want me to give up all my theories and change my whole perspective on life? Settle for yours or for none? Well, Robert wanted that too and I’ve learn me lesson!

I think that argument could apply to you and your long efforts to convince seemingly everyone of your theories that should apply to relationships and a variety of other topics.

I personally rarely recognize myself in what you write, and yes, because of that, I often skip forward. You are right however, in believing that most of us are not eager to go back to some kind of universal principles after coming out of a cult with a system of beliefs that was built on archetypes, centers of gravity, main weaknesses, ray of creation, hydrogens to blissful eternity… and yet led to painful abuses and loss of creativity and individuality. To paraphrase Montaigne: just coming out of the world of subterranean behaviour, I am not ready for its sister realm of supracelestial thoughts.

25. elena - June 30, 2009

Opus 111,
It’s an open forum and we each adhere to whatever we want. You object without foundation which shows me that the foundation I’m standing on is healthy enough. In terms of your personal preferences there is nothing but respect.

Whalerider, while what you say may be true, it doesn’t take any truth away from the other statement. They don’t annihilate each other. As said before, consciousness is not a male or female issue.

It’s been a busy day. Today I ironed all the ironing clothes I had not touched since I left the Fellowship! Have a good rest!

26. WhaleRider - June 30, 2009

Opus 111:
Beethoven or Brahms?

27. Yesri Baba - June 30, 2009

To get beyond the ‘small potatos’ of the mind
one must become a meta tater.

Spuds (small fry) Tuber

28. fofblogmoderator - June 30, 2009

From page 74- a missed posting

308. Cathie – June 29, 2009
for elena, whoever you are

a tightrope walker
in a traveling circus
no net
the audience, breathless,
gasps as she nearly falls…

recovers her balance,
pirouettes and
dazzles them with her brilliance
time and again

29. Wouldnt You Like To Know - June 30, 2009

75/ 23. brucelevy – June 30, 2009:

’17. Ames Gilbert

I viewed two different but similar documents. One said 350,000 and one said 350,000,000. I think the larger one was a typo, as the smaller figure is pretty lose to the amount lost by investors.’

Maybe not a ‘typo.’ These are 2 separate but connected cases (2 case numbers) and dealing with 2 aspect of the same situation. One may be actual damage amount. The other may call for compensation based on the expected gain or punitive damages or some other legal maneuver that allows for claims that are 1000 times actual damages. Until you have the details of the cases, make no assumptions. Lawyers do not file separate/different actions for no good reason.

BTW, did you mean ‘pretty [c]lose to the amount lost by investors.’?

30. dragon - June 30, 2009

25. elena

I think you have found “beyond” for yourself and you are speaking from beyond to the blog.
From beyond it is also possible to name injustice, to name the rape actions of the FoF..

To name something is quite different from accusing…

That’s what I mean:
(maybe you can find and buy The CD in Colombia)

Have a nice day!

31. ton - June 30, 2009

ya elena, i was ‘afraid’ that you would take my previous post the wrong way and turn it into fodder for another attack… i was right but only partly, it seems you did take it in to some extent. otherwise your response and reaction was defensive, followed by attack. elena, sometimes when i read your posts i wonder if in your culture there is a word/concept for a female version of ‘machismo’ ?
look, i really don’t care to get into a pissing contest with you elena, i truly do wish you well…. and i hope in your ‘heart of hearts’ you will believe this. in my own defense i will say that i did read your entire post and i thought there was much of value in it… and even the small part of your post which i chose to address is a valid point, albeit from a limited perspective. i apologize for my own laziness in this regard, but i didn’t have the time or energy to devote to every aspect of your post so i responded to something that ‘jumped off the page’ so to speak. again in my defense, i get the ‘gist’ and i don’t think the point i chose to address was ‘insignificant’ as you say…. part of the reason this point jumped off the page is that as i’ve been following your recent posts, a theme you’ve been pounding on is/are the differences and polarity of male and female psychology/behavior…. what i tried to point out in my post to you is that the subject is loaded with stereotypes, generalizations, and cliche’ derived from obvious biological differences and reinforced/ propogated through cultural conditioning…. and therefore the subject requires careful consideration and some reflection in discussing. that’s all. i hope my post to you provided a moment to stop and to reflect on the nature of your experience and how it relates to your personal point of view…. a large part of this equation is beyond our control, for example the culture we are born into and so many of the experiences encountered…. it seems the one thing that we might have some degree of control over is how to think about it…. give this up to reactivity and cultural programming and we have nothing. i wish you the best and hope you will one day come to some resolution over the ‘issues’ you grapple with…. i know you will. and one last thing in my defense… i don’t want or expect you to give up anything or to change your perspective on life… although, it might not be such a bad thing…? the question is, do you have a choice? and if you do have a choice, certainly don’t do it for me, but by all means do it for you.

32. elena - June 30, 2009

Cathie and Dragon, thank you, I couldn’t have reached you without the help of everyone here. Thank you all for pushing and pulling me, especially those who don’t buy it for a minute and help me keep searching for you within me. It’s been a fiercely welcome battle!

33. brucelevy - June 30, 2009

29. Wouldnt You Like To Know

Yes, thanks.

34. elena - June 30, 2009

Ton, your tone makes it so much easier to hear, no wonder few here can hear when I speak. There’s been so much anger!

A few of your points:

My personal experience on men is that they are as silly and as lost as women, that they haven’t a clue of where we are going or how we are going to get there! That they are as hurt as women and that no matter how much they pretend to be “a cosmos above” they are still looking for mum and dad’s support like the rest of us orphans. Those images of a big powerful father that would take care of us couldn’t have crumbled more destructively after Robert Burton and Girard Haven revealed their copper and all the men in the Fellowship supported them because they confirmed the “cosmos above” that they stood on. Don’t ask me to put a hero where there’s been a coward.

That being said, if there is anything I am now aware of is that we are all in this shit together and we help each other move without expecting anyone else to carry us or the fucking boat doesn’t move an inch.

I do conceive us ALL as a “work in progress” and the only clue I have of where we are going is “US”. After so much suffering what else can we do but hold each other and stand firm for the next blow? It’s shocking how relentless they are, (the shocks) until one starts getting used to them and even then it’s shocking but one no longer resents them as one wouldn’t resent a stone on the road but acknowledge one’s stupidity in driving into it!

We make each other men and women if we are human enough with each other.

35. elena - June 30, 2009

fofblogmoderator,
Thank you for letting that post through.

Have a great day!

36. lauralupa - June 30, 2009

hi everybody,
these days I am playing on different fields, but I do check in about once a week and want to thank you for working to keep this valuable arena alive…
much love to you

laura

37. Ames Gilbert - June 30, 2009

Well, I never knew until today how much fun one can have for three bucks and change!

If you go to the link provided by Just the Facts Ma’am (#75-14 or thereabouts), you’ll see two case numbers for Minne et al v. Stroomberg et al, 2: 2209at00345 and 2:2009cv00625. I clicked on the latter, which took me to a new page devoted to that case. When I scrolled down the page, I found a heading, “Access Additional Case Information on PACER”. PACER is a public records access system. I clicked on ‘History/Documents’. The next page invited me to login to the records, or to subscribe to PACER. I subscribed, and after giving my credit card information and such, was able to access the system after about ten minutes. Back to the ‘History/Documents’, and for 16 cents I got a summary. I’m no lawyer, so I chose the documents closest to the twenty day window after the initial filing. There were three available, all called Reply to Response to Motion. All interesting, but to save you guys some time, the pertinent one is #26. 82 pages, but the government only asks you to pay for the first 30 pages of any document.

Lots of interesting stuff here, folks, and some revealing relationships. The way I see it, the gist of the claim is: David Springfield was the lawyer for the defendants until fairly recently; he was hired and was paid for legal work he did for them; and, he and Abraham Goldman are inextricably intertwined professionally; David Springfield knew a great deal about the defendants financially and personally, knowledge gained over many years of working for their interests. Hence the claim of conflict of interest and the request to have Goldman and Goldman Associates removed from the case.

Lots of supporting exhibits. Here’s the best, from my point of view, Exhibit G. It is, wait for drum roll, David Springfield’s Letter to the Board of Directors (November 19, 2007). Of course we, and all sentient beings with operating consciences, are interested mostly in the stern and truthful finger pointing to various criminal activities within the Fellowship of Friends, but the defendants entered the letter into the record as one of the proofs that Springfield and Goldman were indeed intimately associated in their legal practice.

So, any member of the public has access to these records. I, a interested member of the public at large, have just accessed them. The letter is therefore indubitably and incontrovertibly (I love those big words!) in the public domain, and Abraham Goldman has been ‘actively misdirecting’ (use your own synonym here) us, WordPress, Archive.org, Godlike Productions, and no doubt others by claiming privilege when he knew and knows full well there is no privilege.

So, for just $2.56, you too can verify for yourself that the signed letter exists. David Springfield’s signature has quite the flourish, and is unmistakable. The letter is true, has been entered into a federal court record, and contains important truths. Names have been blacked out (now I understand the name, Black Marker), but are not hard to guess; the usual suspects.

Black Marker, whoever you are, and for whatever reasons you posted the letter originally, I thank you again. You have done a great service. And if you have more documents, I strongly encourage you to first post them on Wikileaks, then tell us how to find them (don’t post a direct link, just tell us the search terms). That will surely save the blog moderator some grief!

38. Opus 111 - June 30, 2009

#26 Whalerider

Beethoven

39. Yesri Baba - June 30, 2009

“Abraham Goldman has been ‘actively misdirecting’ (use your own synonym here) ”

can I use lying douchebag or is it taken already?

40. WhaleRider - June 30, 2009

Thank you Ames!

I admire your courage, integrity, and tenacity.

>>>>>>><<<<<<<

Re: Burton's villa under construction In Luxor, Egypt.

Why Luxor?

Hmmm…

The "Luxor Temple"…is known in the Egyptian language as ipet resyt, or "the southern harem".

When I visited the Luxor Temple a couple of years ago, I noted in a section of the temple called the "holiest of the holy", there is a wall engraving of priests milking semen from a man's erect penis in some kind of temple ritual. (Unfortunately, it was too dark for photos and a flash would have washed out the image or I would post it.)

As my guide, Mohammed, pointed out, you can see the wall is stained from years of women touching the penis as a fertility charm apparently in order to get pregnant.

There was no literal indication in the engraving of whether the semen was used in the ritual or simply discarded, symbolic of some greater truth, or if it was consumed as a condiment in a temple dinner or sipped as an after-dinner aperitif, or maybe even just used as a hair gel, and I neglected to ask my guide. We were left to our imagination.

Burton is a man of some means who will go to great lengths to justify his mania. You can see from his choice of trees both on and surrounding the property.

RIP
Michael Jackson
1958-2009

41. in2it - June 30, 2009

Re: 37. Ames. Your post does make me wonder a bit what the American Bar Association would think:

“The most important role of the ABA is its creation and maintenance of a code of ethical standards for lawyers.”

42. nigel harris price - June 30, 2009

Forgive me, Elena, if I have this wrong…..but is the feminine form of ‘macho’ not ‘maja’? It seems that I got that from Goya’s famous painting – ‘La Maja Desnuda’, which was recommended study at art college. So? Could ‘majaism’ be added to ‘blogeespeak’? Nigel.

P.S. What do macho and maja actually mean as translated from the Spanish?

43. arthur - July 1, 2009

Macho (he-mule) is G. Haven and Maja is R. Burton (a belle Donna in a man’s body). So, he says.

44. fofblogmoderator - July 1, 2009

#40 is new

45. X-ray - July 1, 2009

39. Yesri Baba – June 30, 2009

‘can I use lying douchebag or is it taken already?’

you might need to talk to Bruce about it

”Abraham Goldman has been ‘actively misdirecting’ (use your own synonym here) ‘

Does it mean that David’s letter can be reposted everywhere?

46. X-ray - July 1, 2009

41. in2it – June 30, 2009

“The most important role of the ABA is its creation and maintenance of a code of ethical standards for lawyers.”

Good point.
Can we write a letter to the ABA with the attached Petition?
Goldman’s license was already suspended. His reputation sucks.
With some proofs of intimidation and lying, removing Goldman out of the legal ground would be easy and could move things faster.

47. elena - July 1, 2009

Just got this. Seems worth sharing.

There are no two sides to the debate over indefinitely detaining individuals without charge or trial.

Indefinite detention means allowing the government to imprison people for an unspecified period of time without charging them with a crime and without holding a trial.

That would fundamentally alter the character of our democracy. It would also gut the very meaning of the Fifth Amendment which guarantees due process. In short, it would be a human rights disaster.

The ACLU has been gearing up for a big legislative battle to stop any and all proposals to create a new system of indefinite detention. But now, news reports reveal a more immediate threat.

According to an article in the Washington Post last week, a strategy is taking shape in the White House that would authorize indefinite detention — not through legislation, but with a presidentially signed executive order. And just hours ago, the president’s press secretary said they would now go through Congress. One thing is clear: the Obama administration is seeking the power to indefinitely detain individuals without charge or trial.

What is also clear is that whether through executive order or legislation, indefinite detention is un-American.

Nigel, no connection that I know of.

48. Ill Never Tell - July 1, 2009

So, let me get this straight, Abraham Goldman Associates (which may, or may not, include David Springfield, Esq., in the past, present and/or future) or David Springfield, Esq., specifically, is/are/was/were attorney(s) that serve(s)/served Huib and Traci and/or Stroomwell Investment Group. Then, one, or the other, or both, of these attorneys, or other attorney(s) in the Abraham Goldman Associates office (or associated with Abraham Goldman Associates office), take separate client(s) that want to sue Huib and Traci and/or Stroomwell Investment Group, either concurrent, or subsequent, to representing said original client(s). Certainly sounds like conflict of interest to me, if that is how it is. But that is normal around Oregon House where incestuous type relationships happen all the time. And, since they are under different laws than the common man (or attorney) and those governing the jurisdiction of these United States of America and The State of California, they can do as they please. Right!?

It then may appear that the 2? suits (Minne et al v. Stroomberg et al) are by attorney(s) that has(have) privileged information about their earlier client(s), that finds its way into the subsequent client’s law suit? Sounds like, to me, that the exact thing that Abraham Goldman Associates has been claiming with WordPress, Archive.org, Godlike Productions (and anyone and everyone else), that is, that the, so called ‘David Springfield letter’ to the Fellowship of Friends Board of Directors, is protected by attorney-client privileged information (which it appears may not be)(or by copyright), is exactly what they themselves may be violating with the conflict of interest revealed by the defendants in the suit(s).

That’s just what lawyers are good at; to accuse their opponents of the exact wrong doings they are doing, surreptitiously. It is one of the better ‘smokescreen’ tactics for obfuscation. Because by accusing your opponents of the violation (and do it first), it puts you in the morally superior position and that you would know better than to do something like that yourself!

Get Real people!

49. Panoritsa - July 1, 2009

Ill Never Tell…

thanks for the puzzle here. I read the post twice and now I understand a bit more…

Even though I always found A. Goldman a man with kind face and soft eyes, the fact is that he has played a very complicated role in the Fellowship. As he has been aware of Burton’s illegal issues (and that is the job of an attorney; to defend their client; no matter what the crimes…), he still has been supporting him with the so-called “spiritual” business Burton contacts.

Very dubious indeed…as many issues of “supporters”, “protectors” of Robert Burton. Why all these people feel that strong need to play that role in a business they know from first hand is dirty? They conceal information from the other members of the so-called Church. They assist Burton with the “image” he has created of a spiritual leader and a conscious being.

There are a few older ladies in the Fellowship who do not pay teaching payments and some of them are “close” friends of Robert Burton. When I was talking about one of them and how difficult it must be for them to even express their doubts about Burton and the Fellowship because of their involvement, age, etc….my candid Italian friend just said: “You can become real and true to yourself even if it is just for a moment before your last breath….” Big words? Do not think so…

50. Mikey - July 1, 2009

Big Words – Grande Dames; Older Ladies; Fag Hags.

51. Jomo Piñata - July 1, 2009

Attorney-client privilege, and the question of whether or not privilege has been waived, is not a simple issue, especially in the context of a letter which may or may not have been purloined. We don’t know who first revealed the letter, and whether that person was authorized to do so. Intentional disclosure surely waives the privilege, and inadvertent disclosure usually does. But an unauthorized disclosure is something else again.

Copyright, and whether publication infringes it, is also not a simple issue. Imagine that I am a poet. Someone else publishes my poem. I bring a federal lawsuit to stop the infringement and I attach the poem as an exhibit. Now anyone can go to the courthouse and read the poem or retrieve it on PACER. That doesn’t mean anyone can publish my poem wheresoever he pleases on the internet.

52. in2it - July 1, 2009

re: 51. Jomo Piñata

If the letter is in the public domain, I’m curious how copyright laws would have any impact on whether someone would have the legal right to include the text in a newspaper article (for example) or within a blog — or at the very least pull excerpts from it and/or describe it in detail.

Regarding your poem analogy, I’m also curious about the importance of intent. One of the reasons for copyright law is to prevent someone from financially profiting from the poem without the permission of the author. Not sure if there were other reasons for the law(s) that are relevant here.

Just thinking out loud.

Of course, the moderator has made it clear that he won’t allow the posting of the content of the letter here, but I’m wondering how that applies to excerpts and detailed descriptions of the letter. Why not simply describe the letter in detail? Not the same impact, but I’m sure it would be interesting to readers.

53. harrrumph - July 1, 2009

Hmmm. Haven’t been reading the blog for a few months, but just checked in. I saw the david springfield letter when it came out, and I may be jaundiced about all this but it certainly looked to me like a bald, clumsy effort to protect his ass. Back in 07 the blog was pretty hot, and he likely saw some nasty federal prosecutions coming down the pike. His letter to the board (he probably also figured it would eventually be leaked, if only by himself) looks stupidly like a preemptive resignation. He sounded indignant about all ‘their’ malfeasance, etc. but it sure smells to me insincere.

54. Jomo Piñata - July 1, 2009
55. Tatyana - July 1, 2009

“Take for example a painting by Brice Marden.  The Museum of Modern Art is allowed under §109(c) to display from its collection a painting by the artist.  However, Marden has the copyright for the painting and the museum must have permission to use his images in its catalogs, posters, postcards and other publications–he has rights of display for all reproductions of that image.”

How come then it is on display in this very article? Copyright violation?

56. Opus 111 - July 1, 2009

Glancing at Jomo’s link in #53, I ended up reading the Salinger’s wikipedia article. Welcome aboard JD!:

After several years of practicing Zen Buddhism, in 1952, while reading the gospels of Hindu religious teacher Sri Ramakrishna, Salinger wrote friends of a momentous change in his life. He became an adherent of Ramakrishna’s Advaita Vedanta Hinduism, which advocated celibacy for those seeking enlightenment, and detachment from human responsibilities such as family. Salinger’s religious studies were reflected in some of his writing. The story “Teddy” features a ten-year-old child who expresses Vedantic insights. He also studied the writings of Ramakrishna’s disciple Vivekananda; in the story “Hapworth 16, 1924”, the character of Seymour Glass describes him as “one of the most exciting, original and best-equipped giants of this century.”…

In June 1955, at the age of 36, Salinger married Claire Douglas, a Radcliffe student. They had two children, Margaret (b. December 10, 1955) and Matthew (b. February 13, 1960). Margaret Salinger wrote in her memoir Dream Catcher that she believes her parents would not have married, nor would she have been born, had her father not read the teachings of Lahiri Mahasaya, a guru of Paramahansa Yogananda, which brought the possibility of enlightenment to those following the path of the “householder” (a married person with children). After their marriage, J.D. and Claire were initiated into the path of Kriya yoga in a small store-front Hindu temple in Washington, D.C., during the summer of 1955. They received a mantra and breathing exercises to practice for ten minutes twice a day.
Salinger also insisted that Claire drop out of school and live with him, only four months shy of graduation, which she did. Certain elements of the story “Franny”, published in January, 1955, are based on his relationship with Claire, including her ownership of the book The Way of the Pilgrim. Due to their isolated location and Salinger’s proclivities, they hardly saw other people for long stretches of time. Claire was also frustrated by J.D.’s ever-changing religious beliefs. Though she committed herself to Kriya yoga, she remembered that Salinger would chronically leave Cornish to work on a story “for several weeks only to return with the piece he was supposed to be finishing all undone or destroyed and some new ‘ism’ we had to follow.” Claire believed “it was to cover the fact that Jerry had just destroyed or junked or couldn’t face the quality of, or couldn’t face publishing, what he had created.”
After abandoning Kriya yoga, Salinger tried Dianetics (the forerunner of Scientology), even meeting its founder L. Ron Hubbard, but according to Claire he was quickly disenchanted with it.[64][65] This was followed by adherence to a number of spiritual, medical, and nutritional belief systems including Christian Science, homeopathy, acupuncture, macrobiotics, the teachings of Edgar Cayce, fasting, vomiting to remove impurities, megadoses of Vitamin C, urine therapy, “speaking in tongues” (or Charismatic glossolalia), and sitting in a Reichian “orgone box” to accumulate “orgone energy”.
Salinger’s family life was further marked by discord after the first child was born; according to Margaret, Claire felt that her daughter had replaced her in Salinger’s affections. The infant Margaret was sick much of the time, but Salinger, having embraced the tenets of Christian Science, refused to take her to a doctor. According to Margaret, her mother admitted to her years later that she went “over the edge” in the winter of 1957 and had made plans to murder her thirteen-month-old infant and then commit suicide. Claire had intended to do it during a trip to New York City with Salinger, but she instead acted on a sudden impulse to take Margaret from the hotel and run away. After a few months, Salinger persuaded her to return to Cornish…..

57. fofblogmoderator - July 1, 2009

From # 52

“…..Of course, the moderator has made it clear that he won’t allow the posting of the content of the letter here…..”

That is not quite correct. I was told by WordPress that unless I removed the the post that contained the letter from D. Lubbers (Springfield) they would now allow the site back up. They shut us down because of the letter.

If the letter turns out to be a non-infringement and Abe doesn’t have a leg to stand on, then I will allow anybody to post it as many times as they want. If that letter doesn’t reveal the level of territorial and power hunger that exists inside the walls of the cult, then I don’t know what does. I LOVE that letter. It shows a fairly “identified” member of the FOF getting pissed off for being ostracized and revealing to all of us how corrupt the internal workings of the cult are. As the kids would say; It’s awesome dude!

58. fofblogmoderator - July 1, 2009

#53 is new

59. Ill Never Tell - July 1, 2009

49. Panoritsa:

‘Even though I always found A. Goldman a man with kind face and soft eyes, the fact is that he has played a very complicated role in the Fellowship. As he has been aware of Burton’s illegal issues (and that is the job of an attorney; to defend their client; no matter what the crimes…), he still has been supporting him with the so-called “spiritual” business Burton contacts.

Very dubious indeed…as many issues of “supporters”, “protectors” of Robert Burton. Why all these people feel that strong need to play that role in a business they know from first hand is dirty? They conceal information from the other members of the so-called Church. They assist Burton with the “image” he has created of a spiritual leader and a conscious being. . .’

Whether A. Goldman, A. Goldman Associates, or any other lawyer(s) associated with this person or firm, or otherwise, is, or has, represented the Fellowship of Friends or Robert Earl Burton, it still remains that they, the lawyers, can be held culpable for knowingly participating in the criminal activities of said person or organization. But, when the authorities want to go after the prime wrong doers, they tend to pass over the lawyers because the authorities know how difficult it is to prosecute lawyers and besides, the authorities are often lawyers themselves. So, they respond in a: ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ kind of attitude and let the lawyers walk as long as someone goes to prison or is held accountable.

60. in2it - July 1, 2009

53. harrrumph: “…it certainly looked to me like a bald, clumsy effort to protect his ass.”

Harrrumph,
Argh, yes, definitely it’s David covering his ass.

But, as the Moderator wrote, it’s also the following:

“It shows a fairly ‘identified’ member of the FOF getting pissed off for being ostracized and revealing to all of us how corrupt the internal workings of the cult are.”

Both are true.

The letter exposes something about the cult. And it’s no surprise, therefore, that A.G. and others tried/are trying to hide what has been exposed.

Simple cult logic…
Exposure: bad
Concealment: good

61. fofblogmoderator - July 2, 2009

Funny, those who comment about the blog being made up of the same 8-12 people- here we are only 60 posts into this page and already we have 22 different people speaking.

Alive and kicking.

62. Dr. Pangloss - July 2, 2009

53. harrrumph

Yes, you got it right. Former house boy to Robert Burton. The same “man,” who physically abused his wives according to accounts posted here by one of those former wives, saw how easy it was for a sleazy lawyer to make enough money to leap-frog to elite status within the termite-like social system of the Fellowship of Friends.
Signed-up for a law degree from Northwestern California California University, who’s byline reads “World-class Online Education in Law” and moved up a notch in the hierarchy, while escaping the suction of his master, Burton.
Too chicken shit to leave the festering organisation he was representing as attorney, he chose to draft this letter to protect his ass in case the shit hits the fan.
That’s how it appears to me.

63. Abraham Goldman - July 2, 2009

Abraham Goldman

Some contributors to this blog have mention the DS resignation letter is still available for viewing at the Court’s wedebsite. That is not correct. The Court enterred an order striking the letter and ordering it removed. As a result of the Order, it is as though it was never filed, or was part of the public record. Check with you own lawyer on what this means.

The lawsuit mentioned is being amicably resolved. Mentioning names, cases numbers & etc.and reliving the 18 month old DS letter as part of that resolving controversy is counterproductive to a harmonious resolution for all involved, both current and former members.

The DS letter was never voluntarily disclosed: only the client, the Fellowship, had that right: no other person. Every person who has published it, copied it, or otherwise described it should seek independant legal counsel.

Many participants on this Blog, and other forums, have defamed DS and me. Very few, if any, knew us well, or at all, or any solid facts connected to us. Many, including former friends, took direct or implied “cheap shots” at us. W did not respond.

In contrast, what little I have contributed is for one and all to “Be Careful”, which, indeed, all should be, both current and past members, Many former students were the leaders or participants in the alleged wrongful deeds discussed, even the ones the DS letter was directed to, past and present. The discussion on this blog and other web sies potentilly jeapordize these former members as much or more than current members.

The heart of the DS letter, now stricken by the Court, are: 1) it was a confidential communication by a concerned professional to his client: a religious corporation, and 2) it was the professional’s candid statement required by duty with the mutual expectation and legal right of privacy; and, 3) it was illegally disclosed without the authorization of the one and only client: the Fellowship. Every word of the letter counselled positive response.

Those who attack DS do him, themselves and their belief in good, a great disservice. No one, especially DS;s former “friends”, have had the integrity to stand up and speak of the real DS. In like kind, those who attack me either never knew me, or were grateful for my defending you,and your loved ones and what you held dear in the past. You were all invited to talk with me face to face long ago: no one did so, except Ames, only recently, who said his name was wrongfully used in connection with the illegally published DS letter, and also wanted his name removed as a referenc

Ames had the integrity to call me, I answered, and said I would help any effort to remove his wrongfully used name. He then went “public” with our personal dialogue. He chose to end the personal dialogue, without sharing with me that he intended to go “public”. Does something like this matter to anyone out there?

Most people reading this, and other blogs, have found the need to privately talk to a lawyer: matrimonial; custody; business; traffic; wills and estates; litigation, taxes, bankruptcy, what can and cannot be published, etc. Would you allow your attorney-client privileged documents to be published? Stolen and published? Would those on the Blog publish all corrspondence with Mr. Ford Greene? If someone stole those communications and published them, or sent them to any anonymous web site, how would you or your lawyers (equally defamed) respond?

Disclose who stole and illegally published the private, privileged DS letter. People reading this Blog know. Disclose all former students and Blog participants you accuse of being involved in what DS ethically disclosed to his client. Cowards use DS and his letter as a “whipping boy”. Take his name off the Internet any of you who actually know him know this is right

Abraham Goldman

64. Tatyana - July 2, 2009

Correspondence with my Russian “friend”

“Dear S. I have been looking thru all your photos on Facebook and today I decided to write to you. I don’t know if you aware that I left FOF and what is your policy on contacting ex-students. I will appreciate if you don’t have such a policy, but by writing this letter I understand that I am risking to lose a contact with you and thru you with many faces of people I love.

I feel that we had an honest and true friendship and I would like to keep it and talk to you about things that concern me.

While in FOF I started questioning if Robert’s teaching might be a distortion of the 4th way. After I left I looked for the 4th way without the distortions and I discovered many interesting things.

You posted “14 ways of being present” and I studied them from a fresh point of view. They used to be a complete and objective law for me, now I question them. Here are a few comments to a few “ways to be present”

9. Do things intentionally, with presence.
Ouspensky: If you cannot produce a conscious action, at least it must be filled by intentional actions.

(I don’t want to do things ‘intentionally’ anymore. I want to do things right.)

10. Transformation of Suffering, Non Expression of Negative Emotions: choose self-remembering over self-pity.
Chaucer: Time spent on a remedy is always better than time spent on complaining.

(Complaining and suffering are not just solved by one effort to be present. There is more work to be done than that!)

11. Avoid whole subjects of imagination.
Paracelsus: For if we go wrong in the beginning, we shall err still more in the middle, and most of all in the end.

(Subjects of imagination might be important problems that need thinking and decision making.)

12. Do not Judge.
Ouspensky: We are irritated by other people acting as machines, because we are machine ourselves. If we cease to be machines, we shall cease to be irritated.

(Use your common sense, voice of conscience and a good judgment – is a better advice for me.)

I wish you well. (You look well)

In friendship,
Tatyana

“Hello, T. You left not because the teaching is untrue, but because you did not bridge the interval using the second and third lines of work. Following the discipline and not the politics I propose do not communicate with me on the subject of the Fellowship. Also I delete you from friends in the Facebook because I can’t filter all information specially for you, there are no such settings. No other limitations. If you are interested in yoga or design, mail me. Hug.”

Here goes one more friend…
I am very angry at myself for investing so much of my life and myself in such losers!

65. X-ray - July 2, 2009

‘You left not because the teaching is untrue, but because you did not bridge the interval using the second and third lines of work. Following the discipline and not the politics I propose do not communicate with me on the subject of the Fellowship.’

This is Classic!

66. Jomo Piñata - July 2, 2009

Tatyana, I feel your suffering in bearing such rejections.

I do not think that those trapped within the Yezidi circle of the Fellowship are “losers” simply because they are stuck in the Yezidi circle of false logic, teleological thinking. They are in a certain kind of trance, and while they are in that trance they think a certain way which is results-oriented. The conclusion is preordained: You have lost the way. The reasoning must reach that result and no reasoning that does not reach that result can be seriously considered.

Unless the spell is broken. You can’t reason people out of a trance. But if the spell gets broken, if the dissonance becomes too great to resolve, if something happens that is deeply disturbing to the person in the trance, the trance may be broken, and at that moment other paths of reasoning, of persuasion, may have a chance.

But I feel for you, I really do. Good luck.

67. fofblogmoderator - July 2, 2009

62 & 63 are both new and #63 appears to really be who he says he is.

68. in2it - July 2, 2009

Abraham, are you concerned (at all) about any of the allegations against Burton on this blog? Or is that irrelevant to you, much like a soldier just doing the wishes of his commander? There is no mention about any of the concerns about Burton whatsoever in your post. You are presumably trying to “awaken” — based on your membership in the Fellowship of Friends, because I assume that’s why you’re there. Well, part of “waking up” is being aware of your own actions and the actions of the organization you are a part of, and not being in denial about it — not “buffering” and certainly not obfuscating and concealing.

69. in2it - July 2, 2009

Although, I may be trying to do exactly what Jomo Piñata advises against in post 66:

“You can’t reason people out of a trance.”

70. sallymcnally - July 2, 2009

‘Unless the spell is broken. You can’t reason people out of a trance. But if the spell gets broken, if the dissonance becomes too great to resolve, if something happens that is deeply disturbing to the person in the trance, the trance may be broken, and at that moment other paths of reasoning, of persuasion, may have a chance.’

Thanks Jomo.

People who attack others on this blog have forgotten this was part of their process and without compassion and love for each other we cannot heal anything, and the circle of confusion continues ad infinitum.

71. in2it - July 2, 2009

There may be a differing of opinion at times what’s an attack and what’s a criticism. I agree that both are going on here.

And I also agree that sound and constructive criticism of the fof requires a recollection, a memory, that we were there too.

But as far as breaking spells, remember that a huge part of that spell originated from words. No, you can’t reason with people, but words were largely responsible for creating the trance in the first place. For me, it took a long time before enough people uttered the right words often enough to break that spell.

If they had said nothing, who knows.

72. Tatyana - July 2, 2009

Abraham, your letter has a few interesting points for me.

First, it is a new information about the legality of the letter. That seems helpful:

“The Court enterred an order striking the letter and ordering it removed. ”
and:
“The DS letter was never voluntarily disclosed: only the client, the Fellowship, had that right: no other person.”

OK.

But then on a more emotional note you say:

“Many former students were the leaders or participants in the alleged wrongful deeds discussed, even the ones the DS letter was directed to, past and present. The discussion on this blog and other web sites potentially jeapordize these former members AS MUCH OR MORE than current members.”

Like who for example? A…f? Eli….ta? N…..s S………g? G……….i? L……da? E…n H…s? I think they are all still in! And also… Wait a minute… the names were blacked out!

And then you say about defamation, inability to address you face-to face, etc. I am sorry for that. The main point in this letter though was not much about you but that it showed a concern of an ‘educated in the Law’ person of FOF wrong doings, namely:

Immigration, tax fraud, private inurement, fraudulent marriage etc.

“In like kind, those who attack me either never knew me, or were grateful for my defending you, and your loved ones and what you held dear in the past.”

That brakes my heart. “Held dear in the past”. Please….

Witnesses were telling about this things for over 2 years on this blog, but the response from FOF members was mostly “It is untrue” and “negative ex-students” (including “betraying of what was dear in the past”)

The words of the lawyer gave them some mass, wouldn’t you agree?

I hope I don’t brake any laws by writing you this…

73. Vena - July 2, 2009

70. sallymcnally – July 2, 2009

“People who attack others on this blog have forgotten this was part of their process and without compassion and love for each other we cannot heal anything, and the circle of confusion continues ad infinitum.”
____________________________________________________________________
Thanks for this reminder Sally. We need to remember the possibilty that many of the people that are criticized or attacked may sincerely believe in what they are doing. In this case the criticism must be aimed at the organization not the person. Some may know what they are doing is wrong and that is another story. Still, compassion and loving kindness will open more eyes and hearts than rabid diatribes and character assasinations. I still believe that most of the people who remain in the Fellowship are basically decent and sincere people. They are just deluded and deceived as we all were. Dismissing people as lost and evil is a Fellowship approach to differences. I don’t want to adopt that attitude. It is extreme predjudice and characteristic of fundamentalist religions. It is possible and important to point out the aggregious wrongs in the Fellowship and it can be done without cruel attacks on the perpetrators, who as I said before, may be simply misguided. Those who are knowingly supporting evil for whatever reason will have their own karma to face.

74. arthur - July 2, 2009

Like going to feed the moon? Was’nt that a Fellowship of Friends certainity? So how many people lived within that “trance”? How many died without knowing they were the “fools of the farce”?

75. Another Name - July 2, 2009

Harrumph

Assumptions clouds the mind and when expressed the view of others.

Gossip is a release of tension? A lack of a better way of communication?

Many things are better left unsaid.

In other words…..You are badly informed, in my opinion.

You lack information IMO.

76. WhaleRider - July 2, 2009

Mr. AG:

The FOF “a religious corporation”?…that is an insult.

Corporations answer to their board of directors, not to despots, correct? Over the years, the FOF, Inc. seems to have failed to act in accordance with the wishes of their board of directors in that regard on many occasions. Aren’t dissenting FOF board members, including even the President of the Board, simply fired and/or forced out of office and the organization if they attempt to place sanctions on Burton’s sexual behavior with his followers? Why are all the board member EXCLUSIVELY followers?

Doesn’t the FOF, Inc. a “religious” corporation, presumably established to further the personal growth of its members, have some responsibility to protect its members from the unwanted sexual advances of its leader intentionally placed in his care?

What is religious about the FOF?

religious |riˈlijəs| adjective…believing in and worshiping a superhuman controlling power or powers, esp. a personal God or gods.

What do followers worship in the FOF, Inc? Art? What is religious about the “Divine Present”? Isn’t Burton the only real “controlling power” in the FOF, Inc? He is certainly pulling your strings. Is a mortal man your personal God then?

Burton’s behavior, in my personal experience, is far from superhuman.

“Defame DS”?

On the contrary, Mr DS strikes me as a man of integrity operating from his conscience. I admire that, and if I were him, I would be proud of his letter. He speaks the truth and this is why we are here. His role as a lawyer with morals shines brighter than his role in your organization, if he is still a follower. Why isn’t he here asking to have his name removed? Are you authorized to speak on his behalf?

What regard do you have for disclosing the whole truth and nothing but the truth, my dear Mr AG, other than what can be proved in a court of law?

Are you not, in fact employed to defend the FOF, Inc. with prejudice, regardless of your personal ethics, otherwise you would be liable for malpractice and/or lose a job? Are you not in some respects operating out of a personal stake in the continuance of the FOF Inc. despite the harm the cult has caused others..people like Troy B, Brian Sisler or others?

Be careful yourself, Mr AG, we are not afraid to speak the ugly truth here. It is our right.

I thank you for your participation in this forum.

77. Ames Gilbert - July 2, 2009

Abraham Goldman (#76-63),
I called you on June 24 to ask if your e-mail to the moderator/operator of Godlike Productions was genuine. At first you claimed you could not remember the letter, then you claimed that you had written it on your laptop at home, and finally you said you would look there and send me a copy, which to date you haven’t done. Knowing what the e-mail you sent actually contained is of interest to me, because their version contained referred to “A post by Ames Gilbert”, and words like, “Mr. Gilbert has a long documented history of illegal acts toward the Fellowship, including, but not limited to copyright violations, privacy violations, defamation, invasion of privacy and violation of federal internet and electronic communications laws.” Strong allegations, which I wanted to confirm truly originated with you as I ponder a suitable reaction.

I did not ask your help to remove my name given as a contact on the Wikileaks summary page. I said that I could not find a way to make contact with them to have my name removed, and if you found a way to contact them, I’d be grateful to know that information. See, you are already changing my words to suit you, which is another reason to publish the actual e-mails.

I don’t know the formal way to deduce that an e-mail correspondence has ended. The last e-mail was from me to you. Since you didn’t reply to it, most observers, in my opinion, would say that you ended it. But, feel free to reply to it when you have time. We do not have a client/lawyer relationship, so to bring up the subject of making public fictional correspondence with Ford Green is just another red herring. I happen to think that our e-mails were of interest to the limited public here on the blog. Your answers were models of obfuscation and avoidance of questions that need answering, and I feel that those models bear scrutiny.

I categorically state that I am not “Black Marker” and that I did not ‘purloin’ the letter, and that the first time I read any version of the letter was on page 74 of the blog. Not only that, I do not know the identity of “Black Marker”. I have no idea if the act of posting the letter was illegal, and I don’t care to spend time and money getting a real legal opinion (for obvious reasons, your claims, while they be correct, don’t count).

What I care about is the content of the “David Springfield Letter”. I’m no lawyer, but it appears to me that David Springfield was pointing to illegal activities by the Board of Directors of the Fellowship of Friends, and the leader, Burton. But, I don’t know if the letter is true; I can’t verify if the letter was actually written or sent by David Springfield, and I can’t verify if the contents are true. However, I am leaning very heavily to believing that all the above is true, based on your spirited defense, and of course my knowledge of how you, the Fellowship of Friends, and Robert Earl Burton conduct yourselves. The more you defend it, the more I believe it is true; if it were not true, you would have declared it to be a forgery, and you would have declared the contents to be false. And if David Springfield wants to step up and make such claims, he is free to do that.

If the court has indeed granted your request that the letter be stricken from the record, I hope justice was done. However, that is a far cry from what you are hoping the naive reader will believe, which is that somehow the court has deemed the contents untrue; they merely decided that the venue for this letter was inappropriate.

If the contents are true, then you and David Springfield, as lawyers, appear to have engaged in extremely questionable activity, since you appear to have at a minimum condoned, if not supported the activities David pointed out.

The amazing thing is, like your e-mails to me, your post #63 shows no concern for the activities pointed out in the letter. Your concern seems only to be to cover up the existence of the letter and avoid the consequences of its publication. Abraham, your words, “The discussion on this blog and other web sites potentially jeopardize these former members as much or more than current members” are truly troubling—and reveal something important about you. I suggest to you that as a lawyer who has worked for the Fellowship since 1981, your main concern should be to right wrongs, to expose fraud and crime within the organization (and particularly to all members of the Fellowship, to whom you have quite clear legal obligations), to shed light where there is darkness, and in general live up to your obligations as licensed lawyer, a citizen, and a human being. Ditto David Springfield, who is already writing books on the law and should remember his law school courses on ethics better.

X-Ray (#75-19),
I wrote about this on page 46, #84 of the blog.

In2it (# 75-41),
My understanding is that the Bar Associations record for self-regulation of lawyers is not good. The chance of sanctions on members is very low, and any malfeasance has to be extremely serious. Still, why don’t you try them and tell us what happens?

78. Another Name - July 2, 2009

Thanks Vena

Your post is well spoken and clear. My post crossed yours….my words now seem also unnecessary….Interesting.

Great day to all of you.

79. in2it - July 2, 2009

Vena, Another Name,

Feel the need to repeat…

There may be a differing of opinion at times what’s an attack and what’s a criticism. I agree that both are going on here.

And I also agree that sound and constructive criticism of the fof requires a recollection, a memory, that we were there too.

But as far as breaking spells, remember that a huge part of that spell originated from words. No, you can’t reason with people, but words were largely responsible for creating the trance in the first place. For me, it took a long time before enough people uttered the right words often enough to break that spell.

If they had said nothing, who knows.

Some of those words were very sharp and not pleasant to listen to. Just a suggestion: Don’t fall into the cult group think that all needs to be polite and that criticisim is not constructive. It’s very difficult to criticize any organization without also criticizing the individuals within that organization. And, again, it can be done without forgetting one’s own past within it.

Ames, 77 or thereabouts, I get your sarcasm. In my opinion, the effort to conceal the letter is unethical and underscores just how damaging it is to the fof…. But right, I agree at this point that contacting the bar wouldn’t gain much.

80. brucelevy - July 2, 2009

63. Abraham Goldman

Now I need to go take a shower, with a scrub brush.

81. Jomo Piñata - July 2, 2009

63/Abraham

Abraham can’t take the mask off, at least, not here. His ethical obligation is to his client. What he says to himself inwardly only he knows.

All of which is to say, we don’t know, not a single one of us, whether what goes on in the name of the “religious corporation” bothers him.

I’ll bet it does bother him. He just can’t talk about it publicly. Which, I suppose, could make him rather more isolated than anyone around him.

82. Ames Gilbert - July 3, 2009

In2it,
I actually wasn’t trying to be sarcastic, just realistic. The Bar Associations are set up by lawyers for lawyers (a very high percentage of our representatives are lawyers; ditto lobbyists). There are few bodies that ruthlessly and honestly self-regulate when given that responsibility. The chances of them taking the public interest above their own is fairly remote; it is a matter of record that the number of complaints they investigate and uphold is very small. But, then again, they did suspend Abraham for a while. I don’t know if trying to cover up the David Springfield letter is so wrong, isn’t that what any lawyer would try to do with a revelation that could be harmful to their client? But, the contents seem to point to knowledge of a long history of lapses and possible criminal behavior by the Board of Directors with the knowledge of both lawyers. Samuel Sanders’ letter to the Board of Directors shows this was no isolated abandonment of the responsibilities of the Board. So, no kidding, why not contact them and see what happens?

Hi Jomo,
You’re right, what else can he do in the moments when he is playing the role of lawyer for the Fellowship? And your guess is certainly as good as mine as to whether he is personally bothered. But, he does have personal choices. We can know that his level of bother, if any, obviously hasn’t risen to the level of removing himself from the situation that bothers him. Nothing stops him from resigning his role any time he wants to, though of course he would not escape the consequences of previous entanglements until any statute of limitations ran its course.

83. brucelevy - July 3, 2009

82. Ames Gilbert

Rest assured, one day AG will “get religion” and be a prominent voice against all that’s criminal in the FOF. Think of all the jerks and criminals who’ve left and suddenly “seen the light” (or their future). Narcissists and egocentrics are great at feathering their own bed, regardless which side they’re on “today”.

84. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

Some “good, meaty stuff” in the blog at the moment! Thanks, guys…..Nigel.

85. Jomo Piñata - July 3, 2009

The California Bar disciplines many, many lawyers. The monthly California State Bar publication reads like a gallows list of all the disciplinary violations, disbarments, suspensions, public reprimands, and so forth. The numbers are substantial–hundreds of lawyers every year–and the accounts of what the lawyers did to merit discipline are depressing. So I disagree with what Ames wrote above.

86. ton - July 3, 2009

81 jomo

your posts demonstrate over and again a willingness to believe in something good about someone rather than something bad. to me this reflects positively on your character even if/when those to whom you ‘give the benefit of the doubt’ may not be so deserving. you’re right, we don’t know what abe’s inner process is…. still, you’re betting there is an inner conflict between his ‘ethical obligation,’ (his role as fellowship lawyer) and any higher sense of ethics he may have — that is, something beyond his ‘work ethic.’ i think the later case would assume that he has a functioning conscience. as you implied, we can’t know what goes on in his soul, and i don’t know the man personally, never met him… but whether he has a functioning conscience is a question that arises…. the degree to which ‘it bothers him’ depends upon the degree to which his conscience is functional. in this connection, what i do know a bit about from personal experience is the anesthetic effects on conscience which comes of trance-life in ‘yezidi circle.’

87. sallymcnally - July 3, 2009

The negative affects of putting ones trust in a spiritual teacher and having that trust broken go very deep and tend to linger for a long time. Ones trust in oneself and in others is damaged and I think for many people so much so they are unable to have trusting and healthy relationships again.

88. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

87 sallymcnally

I feel deeply for those who had become close to REB (as you said, by putting their trust in him and having that trust broken). Although my ‘episode’ in June of 1989 was very much based on a ‘sense of failure’, both in terms of financial requirements and living up to FOF standards, I was fortunate to have loving parents who ‘rescued me’ from the whole messy business in California and were prepared to put up with my ‘high tantrums’ and ‘low times’ as I came to terms with my bi-polar disorder. Several bloggers have mentioned FOF members having joined exactly because they had come from dysfunctional families (I really wonder about the ‘boys’ looking for a ‘father figure’, then giving their bodies to REB). My parents had always been firm but fair in raising their three sons and had kept in contact with me all the way through my ‘FOF days’. They had even had contact with Lord and Lady Rodney, but had not done anything as drastic as having me ‘kidnapped and deprogrammed’ from the FOF, preferring to visit me in California from time to time, willing to see if my growth as a precious metal proponent would eventualise in separation from the FOF. (I have written before my history in and out of the Fellowship, so feel no need to go to any length again). I think I have found a young lady, who herself has had a rough relationship in the past but is willing to try ‘putting heart and head first’ in becoming involved with me – an ‘old codger’ of 52. I have no ‘spiritual teacher’ other than life and my close friends, who advise me when my state is going awry…..Nigel.

89. Daily Cardiac - July 3, 2009

Ames: “I believe that one of my civic duties is to help expose crime if I’m made aware of it; that not doing so implicates me in the crime as a knowing accessory to that crime. The law of the land suggests the same. I believe that the same duties apply to any attorney, even the attorney for an exceptionalist like Burton. Apparently, this is the core of any disagreement we may have. You appear to believe that any ends justifies the means of protecting Burton and other officers, I believe that the means shape the end.”

Ames,

I would suggest to you that Abe sees Robert in a different light than you see him, so there is no “ends justifies the means” issue as there is for you. Which of you is on the right track is another issue.

Your quote begins in a reasonable way with the words “I Believe.”
We all have the right to believe whatever we wish on any number of topics or areas. But your quote taken in total, along with the majority of the blog’s entries, suggests that your beliefs (and other regular bloggers) concerning Robert Burton and The Fellowship of Friends, are tantamount to objective truth. This is the fatal flaw in yours and the blog’s reasoning, if I might dare to state my own belief here.

First of all I would like you to keep in mind one fact, and that is: This blog represents a very small percentage of the total of all former members of the FoF.

For the last several months I would approximate that there have been around 30 or so individuals who post on a daily or weekly basis. This out of a pool of 15,000, give or take a few hundred, ex members.

In the entire history of this blog there may have been 300 or so regular ex member posters who have participated for any prolonged time. The real number would be difficult to know as many individuals, especially in the first half of the blog’s existence, used multiple names. They would disappear as one entity and resurface as another and at times post simultaneously under several names. Greg alone has probably had 10 different names.

If my estimate is accurate, 300 = 2% of 15,000. 30 or so present bloggers = .02% of 15,000.

So, while the voice of the blog is very focused and adamant in its purpose, it does not by any stretch of the imagination equate to a consensus of what ex members think/feel/believe about the FoF or Robert Burton.

Why these few individuals have chosen to dedicate so much of their lives to the hoped for demise of RB/FoF I can only speculate or surmise. (In fact I have offered my viewpoint about it in earlier posts.) Obviously they would say it’s to stamp out evil, stop others from being abused, uncover a fraud, etc., meaning that they, out of all former members, are the ones most responsible for doing their civil, moral or spiritual duty. And their true motives will, like most of the information on this blog, fall into the category of things that can’t be proved or disproved.

Regarding your e-mail correspondence with Abe, which you have shared with us, the main disconnect with you toward Abe also perfectly reveals what I referred to as the “fatal flaw” in your reasoning. It is as follows: While Abe is talking about defending Robert’s or the FoF’s rights to privacy, or attorney/client privileges it’s clear by your own statements that you don’t feel RB/FoF has any rights, period. You feel all rights of FoF and Robert Burton have been forfeited through his/their own actions. You feel this way because you have already served as their judge, jury and executioner. You have mistaken your personal beliefs for some form of absolute truth where you obviously believe you cannot err in this regard. Somehow you have convinced yourself that in this area you cannot be wrong, and whenever someone has dismissed the possibility of their own fallibility, while also believing the in the absolute correctness of their position, then that combination becomes a potent stimulant for the tendency to “play God.”

Whenever anyone is convinced their judgment is without error and also that their position on an issue is wholly correct they will feel empowered to play God. And the most heinous crimes ever inflicted on mankind have been inflicted by people who are willing to play God with the lives of others. Along with the right to play God comes the right to destroy, to eliminate.

Now, some former members who are reading this will think right about now that this is precisely what RB does with peoples lives, he plays God, and they have every right to think whatever they want. But they don’t have the right to take away his rights to due process just because they think he is doing injustice to them or someone else. At least they don’t have the right to do that and not become the very thing they claim to oppose.

When an immature soul encounters abuse, or perceived abuse, it will respond in kind. The person will seek out their abuser for the purpose of retribution. The person will attempt to abuse the abuser if they feel the abuser has escaped justice, and if they cannot reach their abuser they will attempt to abuse some random abuser.

This is a law for someone caught in the lower realms of human consciousness. If a mature soul experiences abuse, or perceived abuse, that person will respond in the opposite way. They will experience compassion for the abuser. They will be more determined to not abuse others, including their own abuser. The last thing they wish is to hurt others as they have been hurt – and this very definitely includes other abusers. This is the only way the endless cycle of abuse is broken. The blog is rife with verbal abuse, aimed at anyone who indicates support or sympathy for the FoF / Robert Burton.

One thing is abundantly clear; you and the other 30 or so regular bloggers feel quite different about Robert Burton than do I, or hundreds of current members.

But you allow your strong feelings of distain and anger to supplant your reasoning. It’s fine if you feel Robert Burton is disqualified from being a legitimate spiritual teacher because he has sex with certain of his students.

I personally don’t think that disqualifies him. How do you deal with my preferences, my morality? Do you simply dismiss them? Do you think my reasoning is inferior to yours? Or do you allow the mystery of our differences to exist side by side?

I don’t think buying expensive, pastel suits and accessories disqualifies Robert Burton from being a conscious teacher. Can I express my right to believe that without feeling your wrath?

I believe Robert Burton has every right to run the FoF exactly as he deems necessary and if that includes the school buying thousands of palm trees so be it. I am still a current member expressly because Robert Burton does have the right to intuit how the FoF is created and formed. Can I retain my status as a human being and still claim Robert Burton as my spiritual teacher in your eyes? Not if you can’t hold out the possibility of being fallible in your powers of reasoning.

The David Springfield letter is an insignificant piece of information. Due to your own bias against the FoF you have misread Abe’s reaction to it, as well as it being some sort of smoking gun concerning the FoF. There are thousands of letters like this circulating in cyberspace pointing to corporate, religious, political improprieties, most submitted by wronged, or perceived to be wronged, current/former members/employees/staffers.

Do you realize how simple it is with today’s technology to doctor a letter of this kind? To change a word or phrase here or there to convey a different meaning than what was intended? Do you really believe Black Marker was able to resist the temptation of adding his or her own flourish to it?

This letter, obviously written when David was upset about being terminated from the board, contains allegations of improprieties, not known truths. Even if the words are all from David they only represent David’s views, not any confirmed truths.

The gist of the matter is that David, if he was being truthful, was interested in cleaning up certain improprieties that he felt existed within the FoF structure, and as the legal representative of the FoF it indirectly shows the FoF’s desire to comply with any known rules. David brought up these points acting on behalf of the FoF and must have felt that the FoF would have sanctioned with his chastisement of the board. If anything the letter shows the FoF in a good light. No ex member would ever acknowledge that obvious point. Of course one would also have to realize that Board members in general have their own free will, and their actions do not always coincide with the well being of the organizations they represent.

Your logic concerning the letter is to think that if Abe is trying to block its publication there must be damaging information contained in it, but on this issue you completely miss the point. The letter was an internal memo between the legal representative of the FoF and individuals on an FoF board.

If your bias was not so prevalent you would be able to put yourself in the FoF’s shoes. Bias is an interesting thing. We don’t like to be on the receiving end of it but it doesn’t bother us at all to be on the giving end. Hypocrisy is one of the many maladies that come with living most of the time in the second state of consciousness and taking it to be all there is.

If some hacker got hold of your In Box/Sent folders and started releasing your private e-mails indiscriminately you would not sit idly by. Why not? What’s the harm in it? Do you have something to hide? Is there damaging information to be gleaned from them? That’s not the point. The point is you are entitled to your privacy and so is the FoF, even though you consider them to be corrupt.

What Abe was trying to tell you was that if you and other ex members are successful in circumventing privacy laws you have only succeeded in making it easier for someone to tamper with your privacy one day knowing they can get away with it because they saw you get away with it. The lower self is a master imitator.

This blog is filled with mis-information but since only one collective viewpoint is being propagated there are no checks and balances to recognize truth from fiction. In fact when an individual’s bias reaches a certain level it supersedes truth. Seeking truth is no longer the aim. Feeding the bias then becomes the aim. Bias is its own self fulfilling prophecy, its own Catch 22.

When someone is biased against another it is self justifying. One feels the right to be biased because the object of it is deserving of being harshly judged. What the biased nature doesn’t understand is the bias exists first and then looks for an object to impose its judgment on.

“Bias is a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology or result, especially when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective.”

Bias cannot co-exist with truth; they are mutually exclusive. Because bias wants a certain outcome/reality more than it wants balanced facts. In the nearly 40 year existence of the FoF there has been countless good deeds done under its auspices; there has been a wealth of new esoteric knowledge ushered into the world, and much more old knowledge re-discovered. There has been much joy brought to innumerable individuals. There have been lives reclaimed, lifelong friendships formed. There have been families forged, careers launched, and many other wonderful results. This does not even include the spiritual results, the infusions of consciousness on an individual level, which must remain unspoken of and unseen by all but the recipient. But none of this is admitted on the blog, much less considered at face value. The bias on this blog erases all the good and singles out all the ill will, mistakes, foibles, all the assumptions based on lack of understanding, mis-information, wrong conclusions based on the “facts lying”, out right fabrications and malicious lies, and puts all this side of the ledger under a high powered magnification until it is distorted to the point where an ant becomes a Tyrannosaurus.

While bias rules this blog those biased natures are nevertheless blind to it. At the same time it is extremely transparent to those witnessing it that are free of that particular bias. Therefore, many outside readers will discount much of what is “reported” because it is so obviously coming from a slanted viewpoint. They will simply see abusers of the FoF’s rights moaning about their own past when they were abused by the FoF. In other words, they will see the pot calling the kettle black.

Ames: “I believe that one of my civic duties is to help expose crime if I’m made aware of it; that not doing so implicates me in the crime as a knowing accessory to that crime.”

What is Crime? Is it as simple as what Ames decides it is, regardless of his personal bias?

You will likely reply to this post, possibly with direct comments you want me to answer or expand on but it is unlikely I will contribute any more to the thread. It is not my aim become a regular, or even an infrequent, participant once again.

I understand that the usual cast of characters will also respond to this post. Their words will be insulting, abusive, dismissive, coarse and indignant. They will be operating from their bias but they will not see it. It takes some degree of separation from a manifestation to see it. They, as usual, will simply be it. And it will feel good and correct.

90. atelierartisanal - July 3, 2009

Hi DC, Hi Abe,
Nice to hear your voices here. I’m listenin’.
Moderator, just one more active voice here to count in on this page.

Vena #73 or thereabouts, nice post.
I still believe that most of the people who remain in the Fellowship are basically decent and sincere people. They are just deluded and deceived as we all were. Dismissing people as lost and evil is a Fellowship approach to differences. I don’t want to adopt that attitude. It is extreme predjudice and characteristic of fundamentalist religions. It is possible and important to point out the aggregious wrongs in the Fellowship and it can be done without cruel attacks on the perpetrators, who as I said before, may be simply misguided.

In both Abe and DC’s postings there is the salt and pepper evidence of belief in the lower self, the rabble. That meme seems to be a conceptual kingpin in cementing a individual’s troth to the Fellowship. And this blog provides ample evidence to that meme. There’s really nothing to be done about that.

Only this: that some day, for someone, who’s really, truly and radically interested in awakening to the(ir own) Self to realize that the system’s term of the fourth state of consciousness refers to an experiential “state” of (ever present) non-dual awareness. No separations. Period. Differences exist, yes, but divisions such as, the lower self, the rabble, current students, former students, etc… are all conceptual illusions that belong to the same package as “me”. To dissolve the “me” also means to dissolve the “you”. [fear doesn’t like that and doesn’t want to go there]

And, Abe and DC, I do hope your conscious teacher is telling you that…

91. arthur - July 3, 2009

Wasn’t it one of the 44 who said something like, “oh what a tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive”.

Whalerider, Bruce Levy, Elena, Greg, etal……Were you all lying? What about Richard from Houston who died in Hawaii from AIDS? Did he have sex with Robert Burton or was that a lie?

What about all the rest of the 15,000 who left under strained conditions? All liers? To ashamed or too proud to announce themselves from behind the curtain/persona?

Who is Robert Burton anyway?

92. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

89 dainty fofniac

Do I not detect ‘opposite I’s’? You seem only to post in return to some blogger’s strong angle on a subject. With regards to Burton – whether or not he has right of due process – HE IS SCARED RIGID OF COMING ANYWHERE NEAR A COURTROOM, SINCE HE IS ONLY PERSONALITY (WHICH FORGETS [GIG]) AND HAS NO ESSENCE, LET ALONE ANYTHING ELSE WORTHILY GROWN…..Nigel.

93. dragon - July 3, 2009

90. arthur

DC wrote:
“This is a law for someone caught in the lower realms of human consciousness. If a mature soul experiences abuse, or perceived abuse, that person will respond in the opposite way. They will experience compassion for the abuser.”
———————————–

No, they didn’t lie. But most of the Bloggies are simply immature souls (for DC).

For myself, I try feel compassion with everybody but someone like R.B.
needs help and people who try warn others about joining the FoF.

To stop the FoF via legal actions must be a movement coming from the people who suffered inside this circle and who have the power (most of them are very weak and ill) to do that.

DC is speaking with a forked tongue, he didn’t mention the victims of the FoF in his calculations (DC: If my estimate is accurate, 300 = 2% of 15,000. 30 or so present bloggers = .02% of 15,000).

They are seriously ill and they have not the power to speak here on the Blog or to act against the FoF via a lawyer. It is also a question of money and the FoF took their money, their energy, their power, their dreams….

94. ton - July 3, 2009

hey DC, are you a zombie, or what? it’s as if you keep coming back from the dead to haunt the blog…. and that’s what the fof represents, the living dead, some kind of twilight zone where the inhabitants are manipulated by their puppet master, just another petty self-anointed god who with the aid of his minions continues to perpetuate the illusion and the dream-state in which you exist. what exactly do you hope to accomplish here? do you expect to change the way people think about their personal experiences in the fof? it’s obvious that you are delusional.

DC here, let me hold the mirror for you… and remember when reading your own words, this is you we’re talking about… Jung wrote some interesting things about the necessity to recognize personal projections… maybe you could do a bit of research dear:

“You have mistaken your personal beliefs for some form of absolute truth where you obviously believe you cannot err in this regard. Somehow you have convinced yourself that in this area you cannot be wrong, and whenever someone has dismissed the possibility of their own fallibility, while also believing the in the absolute correctness of their position, then that combination becomes a potent stimulant for the tendency to “play God.”

Whenever anyone is convinced their judgment is without error and also that their position on an issue is wholly correct they will feel empowered to play God. And the most heinous crimes ever inflicted on mankind have been inflicted by people who are willing to play God with the lives of others. Along with the right to play God comes the right to destroy, to eliminate. Now, some former members who are reading this will think right about now that this is precisely what RB does with peoples lives….”

BINGO….

there is so much unfucking believable bullshit in your post… sorry i don’t have the time to address more, but there is this ‘gem’ of a turd:

“When an immature soul encounters abuse, or perceived abuse, it will respond in kind. The person will seek out their abuser for the purpose of retribution. The person will attempt to abuse the abuser if they feel the abuser has escaped justice, and if they cannot reach their abuser they will attempt to abuse some random abuser.”

this is another example of the psychology and convoluted logic of a true sheep…. and this entire post is a demonstration of how the fleecing of the flock continues. i guess the larger issue is why? why is it that people are compelled to dedicate themselves to an obvious fraud… how do people come to be blinded by their own beliefs to the point of abdicating personal responsibility and then placing that responsibility ‘in the hands of’ a daddy-figure…. must be something they missed in the maturation process of the developmental stages.

DC, can you say baaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh….

95. elena - July 3, 2009

Hello Abraham,

It is good to know that after almost three years of having being warned by Mr. Haven that PhallusSheepers of the Phalluship should not waste their time reading this insignificant blog, you consider it worth your time.

Your letter to us is another threat. I remember very well how your apparent kindness turned into fierce indignation and aggression at a dinner when I made a slight questioning of Robert. You were so thoroughly unable to control your reaction that for the first time in seventeen years I saw the meak sheep turn into the big bad wolf in a matter of seconds and realized everything you would be willing to do to protect your master. What horrifies me about you and Mr. Haven and a thousand still member of the Phallus Ship is that not one of you is actually being faithful to Robert Burton but are in a desperate quest to justify your own weaknesses and already committed compliances with the tremendous inhuman abuses of the The Fellowship of Friends on the fifteen thousand people that have crossed it’s gates.

96. elena - July 3, 2009

I find it apalling that all you think you can still do to us is threaten us with renewed versions of how you could get the many people who were once members. Indeed, hundreds in the Greater Fellowship have contained themselves from acting consciously against the Fellowship’s blatant crimes, afraid that they once held important positions, afraid of your serious ability to pull them down when you yourself fall.

I would be much happier spending a few years in Jail for having ever participated in the Fellowship Crimes against every single young man that was raped by Robert Burton deceived by my sole presence in the Cult giving it legitimacy, than knowing it is all going on uncontrolled because I don’t have the courage to pay my due where it is necessary.

I am in a hurry, in a different computer and half way on a trip but I will continue responding to you when time gives me the time.

If the Ship is going to sink let us all sink us deeply as it is necessary as long as such ARKS never float on this earth again. You have no idea how badly your and Daily Cardiac’s post make me want to throw up; I think you might have done me the favour of throwing up for another couple of years.

97. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

93 ton
This may sound harsh to ‘sincere Californians’ but I think…..

“The chief feature of California is that it has an over-inflated sense of its self-worth”…..Nigel.

P.S. And I think Daytime Chuck-Me-Up is the chief feature of the chief feature!!!!!

98. brucelevy - July 3, 2009

I think it’s pretty telling that of all the present FOF membership, the defenders, apologists and straw man rectum extractors that appear here are so obviously the most seriously fucked up, deluded and narcissistic of the entire crew. Luckily and obviously their sickness speaks for itself. There’s no need to refute their salient idiocy. It refutes itself.

99. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

Funny how chief feature got inserted in post 96 (personality)!!!!!…..Nigel.

100. brucelevy - July 3, 2009

96. nigel harris price

If you’ve ever spent time in Texas you’d think California’s chief feature is humility.

101. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

99

Hey Bruce – I had to take an extra dose of anti-convulsants (Depakote)when I read your post 99…..Nigel.

P.S. I did pass through Dallas-Fort Worth airport once and could not see anything much of nothing through the windows of the airport!…..n…..

102. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

And here is one, if Dongey Stuff-It-Up is waxing religious these days…..

“Before trying to remove the mote which is in thy brother’s eye, first remove the log which is in thine own” (Big JC)

…..and Deecey-Weecey – give up while you are still at least this far behind…..Nigel.

103. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

93 ton

“why is it that people are compelled to dedicate themselves to an obvious fraud… how do people come to be blinded by their own beliefs to the point of abdicating personal responsibility and then placing that responsibility ‘in the hands of’ a daddy-figure…. must be something they missed in the maturation process of the developmental stages.”

WHY DO CALIFORNIANS HAVE PSYCHIATRISTS LIKE WE BRITISH HAVE MILK-ELIVERY MEN?

104. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

102

SORRY ….. MILK-DELIVERY MEN…..Nigel.

105. veramente - July 3, 2009

DC 89
I understand that the usual cast of characters will also respond to this post. Their words will be insulting, abusive, dismissive, coarse and indignant. They will be operating from their bias but they will not see it. It takes some degree of separation from a manifestation to see it. They, as usual, will simply be it. And it will feel good and correct.
————————————–
DC, you are really good in covering your ass.

106. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

104

Hey Veramente
I bet DC still believes that old faithful phrase “Man cannot do”. If I met him, I’d kick his ass so hard, he’d not sit down for a month. You see – some ‘doing’ is meant to be constructive, whereas other forms, destructive…..Nigel.

107. Mikey - July 3, 2009

Abraham intellectually justifies his actions with great proficiency.
That bell rings hollow however, since he has not revealed what is in his heart. (Or maybe he has; either way it don’t ring true).

108. Mikey - July 3, 2009

Daily Cardiac appears to be a complete phony; a wordy son-of-bitch, with not much intellect or heart.
Not intended to be a judgement, but if the foo shits, wear it.

109. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

107 Mikey

He’s probably on salary – or ‘praise sandwiches’ – for the work he puts in. Dynamic stuff he writes – NOT!!!!!!…..Nigel.

110. Man Number Zero - July 3, 2009

In Message 89, Daily Cardiac wrote:

“If my estimate is accurate, 300 = 2% of 15,000. 30 or so present bloggers = .02% of 15,000.”

Math is really not your strong suit, is it? This is the second time you’ve made an order-of-magnitude error in support of your arguments.

111. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

109 Man Number Zero

They’re not even arguments…..they’re bloggobabble…..Nigel.

112. fofblogmoderator - July 3, 2009

#90 is new

113. in2it - July 3, 2009

Top excuses for not leaving the Fellowship of Friends:

— I can’t.
— I have close, dear friends who will have nothing to do with me if I leave.
— My friendships in life will be shallow.
— There is no classical music in life.
— There are no beautifully sculpted gardens in life.
— There are no social networking sites where I can meet hundreds of people of similar interests in life.
— There are no organizations where I can feel a sense of community.
— There are no opportunities to start my own community.
— There are no opportunities to volunteer in life where I can help others and meet many others who feel the same.
— There are no spectacular art museums all over the planet in life.
— There is no spiritual reflection anywhere in life.
— There is no meditation in life.
— There is no one to protect me and take care of me in life.
— There is too much group think in life.
— There is too much propaganda in life.
— I’m too old.
— There are healthy activities in life.
— There is no mental and emotional well-being in life.
— There is no improvement in life.
— There is no reconciliation in life.
— There is no healing in life.
— There are no guarantees of salvation in life.
— If there are guarantees of salvation in life, those guarantees are coming from delusional and manipulative cult leaders and religious leaders, not from a conscious being.
— I’m married to someone in the school.
— I won’t meet someone I can marry in life and who will stand by me through difficult decisions, like leaving the school.
— Leaving the school is a difficult decision.
— Leaving the school is not a clear, obvious decision.
— I want my kids to grow up and be part of the Fellowship of Friends one day.
— There is no travel in life.
— There is no New York, London, Paris, Rome, Venice, Egypt, Greece, Japan, China, India, etc., in life.
— There are no opportunities in life to attend a university or trade school, change my career, and better things for myself.
— Maybe Robert will predict the end to civilization (again), so I’d better stay.
— Maybe Robert will predict a huge earthquake (again), so I’d better stay.
— I’ve got to at least give the Sequence a try before I reject it.
— There is no King of Hearts in life.
— There are no moments of strong realization in life.
— There is no inspiration in life.
— I have close, dear friends who will have nothing to do with me if I leave.
— My friendships in life will be shallow.
— I can’t.

114. Man Number Zero - July 3, 2009

In message 89, DC wrote:

“ So, while the voice of the blog is very focused and adamant in its purpose, it does not by any stretch of the imagination equate to a consensus of what ex-members think/feel/believe about the FoF or Robert Burton.”

Among the FoF’s central doctrines are `No salvation outside the FoF’, and `Robert is doing the will of Influence C’. How could anyone who believes these doctrines possibly want to leave? So it seems probable that each one of the 15,000 who has left has decided these doctrines are false.

DC has not denied the fact that Robert has made unwanted sexual advances to his followers; the only justification he has offered for this is that Robert is doing this in obedience to Influence C. Since none of those who have left believe this, it would seem reasonable to conclude that all 15,000 of them think that Robert is a false guru who exploits his position for his own sexual gratification.

(Nigel, perhaps you’re right in thinking that it’s a waste of time to respond to DC’s postings as though they constituted rational arguments, but I think even those who have been `in’ for many years retain a core of rationality that can be reached.)

115. in2it - July 3, 2009

87. sallymcnally – July 3, 2009
“The negative affects of putting ones trust in a spiritual teacher and having that trust broken go very deep and tend to linger for a long time. Ones trust in oneself and in others is damaged and I think for many people so much so they are unable to have trusting and healthy relationships again.”

————-

This is a beautiful and concise description of the emotional fallout of leaving a cult like the Fellowship of Friends.

I would change just one word in the last sentence — from “unable” to “unwilling.” Our thoughts are extremely powerful. Being willing to have lasting and trusting relationships and friendships is a big step.

After having followed the blog for some time, I’ve noticed two Main Threads here — 1) exposing the truth about Burton and the FOF, and 2) providing numerous and diverse suggestions from many different people about how life after the fof can be beautiful, meaningful, rewarding, inspirational, spiritual, and productive. Sally, I’ve really appreciated your posts for how well you balance both #1 and #2, as you did above, and with so few words.

An awareness of what went wrong combined with a vision of what can go right both are very important — in my opinion — for getting past that emotional fallout that you describe above. I hope people can keep both threads going.

116. Ames Gilbert - July 3, 2009

Hi Abraham,
I’ve been reflecting on your comments about me putting the e-mails between us on the blog. I’ve tried to put myself in your shoes, and I think you are right, when all is said and done, it was the wrong thing to do, so I apologize.
Here is due notice. Any communications between us in future will become part of the public record if I so choose, and of course, if you so choose.
Any legal actions you take against me will become part of the public record. If you subpoena me, I will announce it on the blog, together with all subsequent actions, as they happen. This will prevent you getting any court sealing the records after the fact, which in my opinion is a travesty of justice.

Hi Daily Cardiac,
I guess it provides some kind of balance to hear another representative of the FoF making the usual arguments. As I’ve pointed out before, I think you would do well to take a course in argumentation and logical thinking. I told you before that I’m not going to engage with you further in discussion, so I won’t, there is no point. But thanks for standing up for your beliefs. Hopefully, one day it will be safe for you to do so under your real name.

Hi everyone,
The bell cannot be unrung. Abe is rather naive to think that we bloggers, even if we were willing and had vast resources, could somehow remove all references to the letter and to David Springfield from the internet; that is not how it works, thank goodness. The ripples are spreading, the networks are forming, and will continue to do so. That’s why it’s called the internet, or the World Wide Web.

Personally, I’m not trying to ‘bring the Fellowship down’. If I had my way, I’d simply want all the facts possible put in front of the membership and especially prospective members, and let them make their decisions based on the facts. If the Board of Directors took their responsibilities seriously, like Board Member Samuel Sanders bravely and impeccably did, then the Fellowship of Friends in its present rogue form would cease to exist, and Robert Burton would become accountable. A responsible board would force him to obey the laws, including those against inurement. And a responsible board would ensure the safety and well-being of the members of the organization. Anyone, including DC and his ilk, must now acknowledge that the board clearly fails to perform its legal duties, and is instead completely under the direction of the person it is supposed to supervise, Robert Earl Burton.

I think I have done all I can to make another series of facts available. I think that Abrahams energetic but clumsy defense speaks volumes for the veracity of the ‘David Springfield Letter’ and its contents. Again I thank Black Marker for bringing the letter to our attention, and I hope that present members, if they ever get the opportunity to see it, and prospective members take this letter into account when making decisions to stay or join.

I apologize for any stridency, for any hectoring or lecturing tones, for any sense of superiority or judgment that may have come through in my posts. I’m fairly sure that there is no-one, from Bush to Burton, who gets up each morning intending to do evil. Everyone thinks they are doing the best thing, for themselves and others, myself included. It may be best to avoid judgment, but if there is to be any judgment, then that judgment has to be by a person’s fruits; “By their fruits ye shall judge them”, said JC. I am completely responsible for my life and my fruits, DC is responsible for his, Burton is responsible for his, and Abraham and David are responsible for theirs.

Regards to you all, ‘in’ or ‘out’,
Ames

117. WhaleRider - July 3, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

Welcome back!

from Wikipedia:

folie à deux /fɒˈli ə ˈdu/ (translated, “a madness shared by two”) is a rare psychiatric syndrome in which a symptom of psychosis (particularly a paranoid or delusional belief) is transmitted from one individual to another.

The same syndrome shared by more than two people may be called folie à trois, folie à quatre, folie à famille or even folie à plusieurs (“madness of many”).

Recent psychiatric classifications refer to the syndrome as shared psychotic disorder (DSM-IV) (297.3) and induced delusional disorder (folie à deux) (F.24) in the ICD-10, although the research literature largely uses the original name.

This syndrome is most commonly diagnosed when the two or more individuals concerned live in proximity and may be socially or physically isolated and have little interaction with other people.

Various sub-classifications of folie à deux have been proposed to describe how the delusional belief comes to be held by more than one person.

* Folie imposée is where a dominant person (known as the ‘primary’, ‘inducer’ or ‘principal’) initially forms a delusional belief during a psychotic episode and imposes it on another person or persons (known as the ‘secondary’, ‘acceptor’ or ‘associate’) with the assumption that the secondary person might not have become deluded if left to their own devices.

If the parties are admitted to hospital separately then the delusions in the person with the induced beliefs usually resolve without the need of medication. (lucky for you!!!!)

Folie à deux and its more populous cousins are in many ways a psychiatric curiosity. The current Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders states that a person cannot be diagnosed as being delusional if the belief in question is one “ordinarily accepted by other members of the person’s culture or subculture” (see entry for delusion). It is not clear at what point a belief considered to be delusional escapes from the folie à… diagnostic category and becomes legitimate because of the number of people holding it.

When a large number of people may come to believe obviously false and potentially distressing things based purely on hearsay, these beliefs are not considered to be clinical delusions by the psychiatric profession and are labeled instead as mass hysteria.

A strong argument could be made that is what happens in high intensity/high control cults, particularly like the one you are in. The failed predictions are a case in point.

You are deluded, my friend…a victim of mass hysteria.

118. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

117 whalerider

You don’t honestly believe that Daisy Pooftiac is intelligent enough to understand (read and inwardly digest) what you have written…..Nigel.

119. brucelevy - July 3, 2009

118. nigel harris price

I don’t think it’s as much about DC’s intelligence as much as the denseness of his “buffers”, to be able to create and share (with what is no doubt a very small circle of “friends”) an alternate reality and laughable justification that he mistakes as higher truth. There is nothing anyone can say to shake his belief system. He’ll see this as proof of his ever expanding evolution, but it’s actually his ever contracting insanity and sociopathy. One doesn’t need to tell him to go fuck himself, he’s adequately doing that himself.

120. arishakw - July 3, 2009

Re the small percentage of former members who post here . . .

I’ve been gone for 25 years, and being female and having flown mainly under the radar when I was in, I don’t have that much direct, personal experience to report. What I do have was reported early on. I’ve often felt that it’s better to leave the mike open for those with more recent and more difficult things to share. None of this makes me indifferent to or approving of the FoF.

I know people who just don’t want to pick at that scab again, or no longer feel enough of a connection to put time and emotional energy into it.

There are many reasons why someone might not post here yet be as appalled by what goes on in the FoF as the most vociferous posters.

121. WhaleRider - July 3, 2009

nigel:
Do you mean is his or her soul mature enough to perceive the depth of his or her delusion? Isn’t that what maturation of the soul is all about?

In my experience, people whom are deeply deluded strongly resist being liberated from their delusions and will go to great lengths to justify them, even when confronted by the glaring contradictions in their delusional belief system. It takes time and sadly some people take their delusional systems to the grave. But the fact that he or she has returned to the blog peer group community for some reality testing is a good sign.

How does one untie the endless, self-perpetuating Gordian Knot of a delusional system? You cannot. The knot must be cut with the sword of truth. It often takes a profound shock, a lot of tears, and the caring, compassionate efforts of those who have been liberated before. Even profanity and humor can help.

122. in2it - July 3, 2009

WhaleRider’s excerpt absolutely rocks… straight to the point and accurate, and one of the best explanations I’ve seen for the cult phenomenon that so many of us participated in and fell victim to. And, in the spirit of what Ames wrote, his post is also a non-judgmental analysis. The word “delusional” does call to mind to some negative connotations, but it may be the best word — in my opinion — for accurately and yet calmly describing all of us in the FOF without understating it.

Seeing the phenomenon of the fof as a type of serious illness cuts to the chase better than anything. Some things are hard to diagnose, but it doesn’t take a psychiatrist to see that WhaleRider’s diagnosis is spot on. Of course, we all know that some psychiatrists may not see it either. Why? Well, because of the “denseness of the buffers” as described by Bruce.

There is nothing anyone can say (maybe) to shake DC’s belief system, Bruce, but I think many of the responses to Abe and DC on this page definitely provide some food for thought for those who are still analyzing and wondering what the fuck is happening.

123. brucelevy - July 3, 2009

120. WhaleRider

“But the fact that he or she has returned to the blog peer group community for some reality testing is a good sign.”

You’re joking right? For whom is it a good sign? You don’t think he’s here to have his vision shaken or broadened do you? He’s here because he feels it’s necessary to justify the unjustifiable, and to watch himself speak. He’s a buffoon, and not much more. He’s completely unable to see how transparently absurd his arguments and straw men are. He will not be shaken in his certainty. He’s the perfect cult asshole.

124. brucelevy - July 3, 2009

121. in2it

“but I think many of the responses to Abe and DC on this page definitely provide some food for thought for those who are still analyzing and wondering what the fuck is happening.”

That’s certainly true.

125. brucelevy - July 3, 2009

121. in2it

At the same time, it can be useful to remind some people that besides the access to thought such as are on this blog, for further self-reckoning, we’re also dealing with a profoundly bent person in DC. Bent, and a pariah.

126. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

120 whalerider

To your last sentence, and to be used at a formal REB dining experience….

Q. Why did the dessert jump off the cliff?
A. It was a lemming meringue pie!

But I really do not think DC’s state is all that humorous. The problem lies in the ‘hub’ of what the FOF pretends to be, and what spirituality and true or false gurus are all about – a heightened state of consciousness. Having just come off one of those, with all the #44’s flying about the environment, nurses and patients at the asylum seeming to have an in-depth knowledge of my past experiences and being ‘Highlander’, ‘Henry V’ or some sort of godlike being, wreaking havoc on social injustices, then coming out low and finally, as now, feeling normal and tired with a new medication regime, conscious of the expense, both monetary and psychologically to myself, I wonder at it being worthwhile. I can claim that my way is the ‘the way of the warrior’, but it does not alter the fact that ‘something higher’ was experienced at the expense of a great deal of negativity. Personally, I think REB is just a showman with a brief understanding of spiritual matters (I do not believe he has any permanent, or has ever experienced ‘higher consciousness’) who dupes and ‘tickles the ears’ (The Bible) of his followers, who just want to feel that they are somewhat special and obviously the sole recipients of salvation. I can only stress my belief in a passage from the ‘Gayan’ by Sufi Inayat Khan, who was, in some way, connected to Meher Baba…..

“The only thing that is created in life is one’s own character.”

127. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

And one of my own, which flies in the face of Fundamentalist Christianity…..

“Life is as Endless as it is Beginningless”…..Nigel.

128. fofblogmoderator - July 3, 2009

#120 is new

129. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

Just listening to the 10 o’clock news…..

44 Devon-based soldiers have, so far, died in Afghanistan.

Needless to say, given my recent episode, I stayed well away from the parade through the city at 11.30 this morning, having to put up with a ‘pocket-search’ from the police, while going to my bank in the High Street. And hearing ‘hooray henries’ like Prince Charles saying how “awfully, jolly sad” it is that soldiers are dying just makes my blood boil. I also have to put up with Jimmy “Attitude” Laird in my pub, who served in Korea (actually seeing active service), going on about the Irish Troubles, which is another territorial dominance situation perpetrated by the British.

For me, the only battle worth fighting is that over one’s own weaknesses.

…..Nigel.

130. James Mclemore - July 3, 2009

Just the sheer fact of Abraham and DC coming here and posting may speak volumes about themselves and the cult they belong to.
I go back and forth in agreeing with Bruce that these guys are,
“here because he feels it’s necessary to justify the unjustifiable, and to watch himself speak”,
and an Intuition that tells me that deep inside they suspect and perhaps even know that something is very wrong with where they find themselves to be. Otherwise, why come here at all to engage us poor losers who are stuck in the small-mindedness of the dreaded ‘lower self’. Why would they bother?
Sometimes it seems to me that they are trying very hard to resolve something inside of themselves that has become discomforting to a picture they have drawn about their life.
They have backed themselves into a very small area of that ‘yezidi circle’, and I like to think that somewhere inside they may just know that.

131. DXP - July 3, 2009

DC,

I thought I’d jump in here just for a moment, then go back to not reading very often and then just checking in. I agree with you that this blog represents bias. But EVERYONE represents their own bias including you and who you defend.

There are several comparables such as the sexual abuse in the catholic church and the FLDS – the fundamentalist segment of the mormon church. You are exhibiting a religious extremist fundamentalist point of view in defending sexual abuse just as with the priest abuses of children and the mormon abuses of women and children. That is one reason there are secular laws in this country – to curb religious extremism when it condones abuse, which is a form of violence. These bloggers are comparable to those who outed the catholic priests for the systemic abuse of, mostly, young boys. This in itself is not abuse, as you contend in the following quote:

“This is a law for someone caught in the lower realms of human consciousness. If a mature soul experiences abuse, or perceived abuse, that person will respond in the opposite way. They will experience compassion for the abuser. They will be more determined to not abuse others, including their own abuser. The last thing they wish is to hurt others as they have been hurt – and this very definitely includes other abusers. This is the only way the endless cycle of abuse is broken. The blog is rife with verbal abuse, aimed at anyone who indicates support or sympathy for the FoF / Robert Burton.”

Simply because bloggers want to bring justice and the rule of law to this (extremist and fundamentalist) church is not in itself abuse. It is necessary that there be courageous and outspoken people to actually bring compassion by limiting fundamentalist excesses.

As to your comments about the former fof board member, first, I have not delved into all the particulars, but I know from experience that if a board member speaks out that person should be listened to. Not swallowed hook line and sinker, but honestly and truly considered. It cannot be dismissed out of hand or with any kind of character assassination – tho that is typical behavior. It is so typical however that it just does not fly.

As to this quote: “I believe Robert Burton has every right to run the FoF exactly as he deems” – actually no, he does not LEGALLY have EVERY right. If you are going to try to pull a fast one saying some such about “higher” and so on, well, that is just what fundamentalist religions do and actually it misses the true meaning of a spiritual pursuit and practice.

It must be trying to have a gadfly such as this blog for the fof fundamentalists. (what did G say about gadflies? something……long ago) The blog IS tiresome often, and extremely redundant, but that is the nature of the beast, because to create justice, compassion and honor, there has to be that force.

I would suggest you apply yourself to the present and skip the fof fundamentalist lingo and if you truly wish the fof and Mr. Burton himself to continue as a church then make reparations and stop the sexual abuse, and make sure you are fully in legal compliance.

132. WhaleRider - July 3, 2009

brucelevy:
Actually, I am not joking at all, but if you could make a joke about it, I am all for a good laugh.

I think the need for followers to justify themselves here is a good sign for them along the road to sanity.

I, too, was once a zealous supporter of the Fellowship, the perfect cult asshole…once I even spoke to a group of high school students in OH in support of the FOF…

The more followers externalize their thought processes in writing, the better chance they are able to eventually see the contradictions.

Notice there is no use of contemporary quotes in DC’s thought process….it will be what he or she doesn’t write that will be the most telling.

Each of carry the fear of having our contradictions exposed, DC is no different. The need to justify oneself speaks to that fear. That is what DC is hiding from, just like the rest of us.

133. brucelevy - July 3, 2009

131. WhaleRider

“You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!”

Maybe, but I don’t buy it in this case.

134. nigel harris price - July 3, 2009

132 brucelevy

Bruce – I can imagine your profession being that of ‘controller’ in a small business, ‘dampening the ardour’ of an all-too-enthusiastic and over-optimistic entrepreneur and telling him/her the reality of the business, as it is being run and its present situation. I believe, like you, that DC and AG should be given very little ‘slack’ with which to operate, in terms of giving them something for which to hope – waking up to their situation and leaving the Fellowship. As Henry V states…..

“France (Renaissance etc.) being ours, we’ll bend it to our awe, or break it all to pieces”

135. Susan Zannos - July 3, 2009

sallymcnally and in2it:
Thanks for keeping the survival thread going–the distinction between “unable” and “unwilling” seems an important one. And finding out how to be willing to trust an important avenue of inquiry.

136. fofblogmoderator - July 4, 2009

#131 is new

137. good_to_feel_alive - July 4, 2009

DC-
While having lunch with my daughter today (who is now a young adult but has spent most of her childhood in OH) and talking about my not being in FoF any more, she asked if her father will eventually come to see the truth about FoF. Children know.

138. Yesri Baba - July 4, 2009

“I understand that the usual cast of characters will also respond to this post. Their words will be insulting, abusive, dismissive, coarse and indignant. They will be operating from their bias but they will not see it. It takes some degree of separation from a manifestation to see it. They, as usual, will simply be it. And it will feel good and correct.”

DC- You are a monumental, gargantuan, titanically brainwashed retard spaz zombie freak, a sychophantic apologist- a perfectly fascist ‘little Eichmann’. Every word you write makes my skin crawl loose and trembling in a retreat from evil.

You would do well to read and re-read again and again what Bruce and Ton have written about you. It is the truth.

In regards to the quote at the beginning of this post- as usual you are as right as rain.

139. fofblogmoderator - July 4, 2009

137 is new

140. fofblogmoderator - July 4, 2009

Happy Independence Day

141. Panoritsa - July 4, 2009

DC

whoever you are, wherever you are… you scare me…..

that feeling of hollowness in my stomach is there when I read your post…that same feeling that sickens me when I read about abuse in the papers…when I see people suffering from the doings of other people…

…you just scare me…with your pompus style…with your lack of heart…with your greed…your ignorance…your desperate effort to be seen…to be right…to defend… others…your emptiness…

…you scare me…you are a desperate being …. in search of something big out there of yourself…something to fill up the void…

…you scare me…because… you would do anything…if power was in your hands…

142. Daily Cardiac - July 4, 2009

To the fofblogmoderator:

If it is possible please remove the D S’s name from #89. His whole name appears once and his first name appears twice. Please replace it with D S or D. Thank you

143. Dr. Pangloss - July 4, 2009

#89 Daily Cardiac wrote:
“The David Springfield letter is an insignificant piece of information.”

#142 Daily Cardiac wrote:
If it is possible please remove the D S’s name from #89.

Oops, DC. Not supposed to spell out names here, you little bitch.

144. harryhindsight - July 4, 2009

Daily Cardigan,

It saddens me to say it but, you wrote;

“If a mature soul experiences abuse, or perceived abuse, that person will respond in the opposite way. They will experience compassion for the abuser. They will be more determined to not abuse others, including their own abuser. The last thing they wish is to hurt others as they have been hurt – and this very definitely includes other abusers. This is the only way the endless cycle of abuse is broken. ”

I was quite literally, paralyzed with incredulity by your lack of compassion and understanding of anyone who has ever actually experienced the utterly degrading inhumanness of physical, emotional and spiritual abuse. Your depth of dispassion parading as wisdom and the arrogant, nonchalent “unidentified, King of Hearts” arrogance contained in your statement truly, truly evoke a sense of deep sorrow for you, you poor fucked up little cunt!

If you harbor any belief that you are a mature soul or that you dwell in the company of those who are, I regret to say that you are quite possibly, hopelessly, tragically lost.

You have obviously never been abused, felt any true empathy for anyone who has been or more likely are so entirely out of touch with the fact that you have been or are being, that you cannot see what stares you in the face every single day that you participate in the sick circus of the Fellowship of Friends.

You support a deluded, drug and sex addicted man who believes he will share an apartment with Leonardo on the sun when he dies. A man who has others schedule sex for him daily with multiple and often unwilling partners and tells them it is good for them, then pays them on a sliding scale depending on their ability to be hard core, with cash syphoned off from the twee, potager lunches in the lovely sculpted gardens you enjoy so much that evoke in you the blissfully numb sensation that it’s all so obviously worthwhile.

Feeling compasssion for an abuser is one of the defence mechanisms that the confused abusee resorts to. It perpetuates the abuse as does the pseudo esoteric bullshit you and your squeaky clean fellows propound as you sip your wine gentilely while taking in the lovely impressions of the fountains and palm trees. It is all so unbelievably, vomit provokingly fucked up, but worst of all for all here to see, YOU no longer know how to allow the gut wrenching truth in.

When mature souls see the depth of abuse that they have blindly condoned and supported, they summon the strength to get out and be free from it, regardless of the personal consequences. They finally resolve to have nothing any more to do with it, because it hurts so much to see and ignore. They wish to help others be free from it, they want as many people as possible to know how absolutely disgustingly sick it is. “The endless cycle of abuse is broken” BY DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Not by dividing your attention for four wordless breaths while the sick Goddess sucks another cock and spouts inanities about Rhino shit.

Don’t you fucking dare come here again to lecture and educate us about “right attitudes” towards abuse.

Harry.

145. Dr. Pangloss - July 4, 2009

144 harryhindsight
Thank you for this.

As a wise man wrote, “Truth can never be told so as to be understood, and not be believed.”

146. Panoritsa - July 4, 2009

AC / DC HIGHWAY TO HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

147. nigel harris price - July 4, 2009

146 Panoritsa

I think the problem is not Hell – many of us have been there – no, the problem in life is standing still…..Nigel.

148. fofblogmoderator - July 4, 2009

#143- Dr P- ….”Not supposed to spell out names here, you little bitch.”

#144 harryhindsihght- ……..”you poor fucked up little cunt!”

PLEEEEZE- let’s tone it down a little people

149. Yesri Baba - July 4, 2009

The View and Meditation of Dzogchen can be explained in many, many ways, but simply sustaining the essence of present awareness includes them all.
Your mind won’t be found elsewhere.
It is the very nature of this moment-to-moment thinking.
Regard nakedly the essence of this thinking and you find present awareness, right where you are.

Why chase after thoughts, which are superficial ripples of present awareness?
Rather look directly into the naked, empty nature of thoughts; then there is no duality, no observer, and nothing observed.
Simply rest in this transparent, nondual present awareness.
Make yourself at home in the natural state of pure presence, just being, not doing anything in particular.

Present awareness is empty, open, and luminous; not a concrete substance, yet not nothing.
Empty, yet it is perfectly cognizant, lucid, aware.
As if magically, not by causing it to be aware, but innately aware, awareness continuously functions.
These two sides of present awareness or Rigpa-its emptiness and its cognizance (lucidity)-are inseparable.
Emptiness and luminosity (knowing) are inseparable.
They are formless, as if nothing whatsoever, ungraspable, unborn, undying; yet spacious, vivid, buoyant.
Nothing whatsoever, yet Emaho!, everything is magically experienced.
Simply recognize this.
Look into the magical mirror of mind and appreciate this infinite magical display.

With constant, vigilant mindfulness, sustain this recognition of empty, open, brilliant awareness.
Cultivate nothing else.
There is nothing else to do, or to undo.
Let it remain naturally.
Don’t spoil it by manipulating, by controlling, by tampering with it, and worrying about whether you are right or wrong, or having a good meditation or a bad meditation.
Leave it as it is, and rest your weary heart and mind.

The ultimate luminosity of Dharmakaya, absolute truth, is nothing other than the very nature of this uncontrived, ordinary mind.
Don’t look elsewhere for the Buddha.
It is nothing other than the nature of this present awareness.
This is the Buddha within.

There are innumerable Dharma teachings.
There are many antidotes to many different kinds of spiritual diseases.
There are many words in the Mahamudra and Dzogchen nondual teachings.
But the root, the heart of all practices is included here, in simply sustaining the luminous nature of this present awareness.
If you search elsewhere for something better, a Buddha superior to this present awareness, you are deluding yourself.
You are chained, entangled in the barbed wire of hope and fear.
So give it up! Simply sustain present wakefulness, moment after moment.
Devotion, compassion, and perfecting virtue and wisdom are the most important supportive methods for completely fulfilling this naked, nondual teaching about present awareness, the innate Dharmakaya.
So always devote yourself to spiritual practice for the benefit of others and apply yourself in body, speech, and mind to what is wholesome and virtuous.

Sarva mangalam.

May all beings be happy!

This is the heart teaching of Mahamudra, of Dzogchen, of Zen, of all the nondual teachings: Sustaining present awareness. Recognizing the Buddha-nature through the present moment, this very moment of awareness. If it’s awareness taking the form of thinking, recognize the present awareness component of the thought. If you are remembering the past, recognize the present awareness component of the memory. You’re not in the past. How could you be in the past? It is present awareness remembering. If you feel distracted when remembering, bring the mind back to the present awareness. You don’t have to stop remembering. Recognize present awareness, which is remembering. If you are dreaming, fantasizing about the future, about what you are going to do when you leave here, how you are going to tell everybody how wonderful it was and how great Dzogchen view and meditation is, that’s fine-recognize present awareness fantasizing, planning, dreaming. Recognize who or what is doing that present awareness. Know the knower; see through the seer; go beyond me and mine, and be free.

Even if you’re not in the past or in the future, even if you are just here-very present-watching your breath or sky-gazing; who cares, really, about the breath? Who cares about the sky? That’s just a pretext, a form, a method. It’s just the means; it’s not the end. Who is doing that? Recognize present awareness while sky-gazing. We’re not sky worshippers. We are watching the breath, but are we breath worshippers? Or are we, rather, getting to know the heart-mind and how this body and mind work? Notice it is just present awareness that is watching the breath. If you are watching the breath very one-pointedly, that’s great, but that’s just the means. It’s not the end. What if you are watching the breath, and the mind is jumping around like a wild monkey in a tree’s branches? Recognize present awareness that is jumping around. It’s present awareness. It’s no worse than staying in one place. If the monkey is just sitting in the corner of the cell or jumping around all four corners, it’s still a monkey. Or for that matter, the Buddha. Monk or monkey. One nature. Like water and ice-the same nature in temporarily different states.

Recognize this innate awareness, this renowned Rigpa, which is always with us no matter how far we may feel from it-this total presence, our primordial being, this untrammeled, never limited freedom-our true nature. And be free. Enjoy it however you like. You can’t know it; it is not an object of the mind. It’s not a thing. But you can be it, at ease in your own way, in your own life. You have it all; use it however you like. You are free to be as deluded and miserable, or as free and joyous and enlightened as you like. Use it however you like. That’s the inherent freedom of being. That’s the joy of meditation. That is why the primordial Buddha Samantabhadra gave twelve great Vajra laughs. Oh, the cosmic absurdity of all our schemes and melodramas! Yet we must live them through, til our lesson is learned.

It says in the Dzogchen teachings, whether our nature descends into Samsara or ascends into Nirvana, it is not ruined in Samsara and it is not improved in Nirvana. It is beyond both. Samsara and Nirvana are inseparable.

150. James Mclemore - July 4, 2009

149. Yesri Baba

Thanks

151. nigel harris price - July 4, 2009

149 Yesri Baba

Now! There is Yesri Baba not being ‘tongue-in-cheek’. There is something for folks of my nature (bi-polar) to hold with…..

…..(Samsara – the nature of illusion)
…..(Nirvana – the nature of extinction of the Self into what Is)

“It says in the Dzogchen teachings, whether our nature descends into Samsara or ascends into Nirvana, it is not ruined in Samsara and it is not improved in Nirvana. It is beyond both. Samsara and Nirvana are inseparable.”

Eternal Vigilance, whether in Fear or Hope…..Nigel.

152. Wouldn't it be nice if… - July 4, 2009

(Overheard at a well-known insurance company)
“Hey Dave, look at this!”
“So, what is it?”
“No, I mean, come over and look at this!”
“OK, I’m on my way”.
“I’ve highlighted it. See what I mean?”
“Yeah, it looks pretty much like a confession to me. So, Jim, who are they?”
“One of our clients; they call themselves the Fellowship of Friends, and this is an internal memo or something from one of their lawyers”.
“Well, it says here, under “Notes”, that they’ve been dropped before, ‘cos their leader thinks he can do what the hell he likes and have the insurance pick up the pieces. But they promised they’d do better, and even then, it looks like Risk Assesment tripled the premiums”.
“What do ya think we should do, Dave?”
“Drop them like a hot brick, Jim. Do it now. It says a premium has just come in, so just return it, tell them we’re dropping them because they didn’t divulge full information and answer the questions honestly.”
“What happens if they get shirty?”
“Tell em we’re onto them. They wanna to play dirty, we’ve got them for any number of things. And spread the word. I know the AIA is competition, but why the hell would any member insure this pack of retards?”

153. Ames Gilbert - July 4, 2009

Happy Independence Day, American readers. Nice to be relatively free. Happy Dependence Day, members of the Fellowship of Friends, and members of any other organization in thrall to their leaders. Or should it be Happy Co-Dependence Day?

Have a good time at the picnic at Lake Nancy, or whatever it is nowadays. And take a few moments to think for yourselves. Here’s a possible subject: what is the difference between ‘revealed knowledge’ and something you have truly verified for yourself?

154. good_to_feel_alive - July 4, 2009

144 Harryhindsight

Beautiful post. Thank you.

“If a mature soul experiences abuse, or perceived abuse, that person will respond in the opposite way. They will experience compassion for the abuser. They will be more determined to not abuse others, including their own abuser. The last thing they wish is to hurt others as they have been hurt – and this very definitely includes other abusers. This is the only way the endless cycle of abuse is broken. ”

This reminds me of someone… oh yes, Jesus Christ, except that HE was the abused one and he forgave his abusers. Seems like reversed logic here: you are abused by a “CONscious being” and you have to forgive him!!!

155. good_to_feel_alive - July 4, 2009

…and, if that’s what consciousness brings about, then I am not sure I want it.

156. nigel harris price - July 4, 2009

(paraphrase from Walt Whitman)…..

…..”Has life been cruel to you, brother?
I pity you, for life has not been cruel to me.”

We MUST take ALL OUR EXPERIENCES – yes, even those within the Fellowship – and be prepared to learn from them – if we deny ourseleves the right to learn from what was wrong in our lives, we repeat the endless cycle of Karma and breed cruelty and fear in our own lives, whether or not we are in a group (FOF or not). Personally, at present, I have to learn good business practice – and, yes – being in good business householder – even though, at the ‘base’ of my trade lies the wish for others to experience that they have bought ‘a thing of joy’…..Nigel.

157. nigel harris price - July 4, 2009

154 good_to_be_alive

For me, consciouness brings about acting on principles – forgetting that one had, or was one that had been, abused, in this case. Remember that phrase that was ‘bandied about’ in the FOF – HIGHER RIGHT? If used properly, it takes us to a place where we may be Imitators of Christ – the just acts that he perpetrated – not just calling ourselves Christians (sorry, but being baptised, raised and confirmed an Anglican Christian, it is my tradition, although now by the Arms Of Exeter, it is more by the Sword of Enlightenment piercing through into the Crossed Keys of Higher Centres – I sent G—-d H—n a copy of the monthly ‘handout’ from Exeter Cathedral, patiently interpreting the symbolism – I am sure he just raised his eyebrow, as he does, sniffed, sneared and ‘binned it’ – his loss)…..

Do I ramble too much for you guys? Please allow me a little space. YB and his last post seem to have ‘brought me back to life’ as a ‘blogger of nourishment’ which is my aim. And I wish Elena well on her trip…..Nigel.

158. DXP - July 5, 2009

Panorista wrote: “…you scare me…because… you would do anything…if power was in your hands…”

I think the term “cult” has lost much of its emotional impact. So many things are cults these days. But the terms “extremism and fundamentalist” have not, and that is EXACTLY what fof defenders and procurers are. And it fits your idea that power is the core issue.

159. Opus111 - July 5, 2009

It is true that relatively few contribute to the blog and only 100+ people signed the petition.

It is also a fact that very few come here to “defend” the FOF and its leader R. Burton.

For members, fear is definitely a large factor; for many ex-members, it is shame that keep them silent and distant.

160. wildz - July 5, 2009

Opus111

So true your words.

Happy 4th!!!

161. Yesri Baba - July 5, 2009

To anyone interested here is a link to the whole talk the above post was taken from-

http://www.dzogchen.org/teachings/talks/SustainAware10694.html

162. X-ray - July 5, 2009

“If a mature soul experiences abuse, or perceived abuse, that person will respond in the opposite way. They will experience compassion for the abuser. They will be more determined to not abuse others, including their own abuser. The last thing they wish is to hurt others as they have been hurt – and this very definitely includes other abusers. This is the only way the endless cycle of abuse is broken. ”

You such a brainless stinky fucked up mother fucker Daily Cardifuck.
Shall you suffer greatly and live your life in pain until you fucking die.

163. X-ray - July 5, 2009

AG’s efforts are in vain. He cannot clean a 40 years of shit.
Burton will end up in jail, and maybe AG will follow him as well.

164. X-ray - July 5, 2009

PLEASE RESEND PETITION HERE:

FBI
https://tips.fbi.gov/

IRS
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=106778,00.html

Franchise Tax Board
https://webapp.ftb.ca.gov/informantdb/selection.aspx?Lang=en-US

INS
http://www.immigrationdirect.com/uscitizenship-contact.jsp

Department of Justice
Office of the Attorney General, State of California
Office of Victims’ Services
http://ag.ca.gov/victimservices/contact.php

U.S. Department of Labor
http://www.osha.gov/pls/osha7/ecomplaintform.html

Child Abuse
Childhelp’s National Child Abuse Hotline
800-4-A-CHILD (800-422-4453)

Office of the Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
http://gov.ca.gov/interact#email
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
Phone: 916-445-2841
Fax: 916-558-3160 ( new number )

ICSA – International Cultic Studies Association
P.O. Box 2265
Bonita Springs, FL 34133
Phone: 239.514.3081
Fax: 305.393.8193
e-mail: mail@icsamail.

cbs5news
http://cbs5.com/

KNBCnews
http://www.knbc.com/contactus/index.html

KCRA 3 Television
http://www.kcra.com/station/1843006/detail.html

FOXnews
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html

165. X-ray - July 5, 2009

Page 46, post #84 explains it all.

Thank you Ames, we love you.

166. Bares Reposting - July 5, 2009

Part 46/#84. Ames Gilbert – August 20, 2008

Veronicapoe (#45-58 or thereabouts) and Rear View Mirror (#45-59 or thereabouts),
From my post #8-134:
“Do not make the mistake of thinking Abraham Goldman is the mild, gentle man he projects himself as to so many. When it comes to protecting the Fellowship, he is to Burton as Karl Rove is to Bush—utterly and completely ruthless, and completely without conscience. For him, ANY means justifies the ends. I personally know how Goldman works. For example, he sent an employee of the Church of Scientology, an ‘investigator’ called Ingram, to threaten me and my family with harm if I did not help the FOF by withdrawing my help for Troy Buzbee. The sleazy Ingram at that time was wanted in two states for his abusive investigations. Ingram also went to Troy Buzbee’s mother (who knew nothing of the case) and revealed what was going on—not to obtain information (she had none), but to use her horror and dismay as a weapon against Troy. That is the kind of person Abraham Goldman is, behind the soft smile and the ‘harmless’ act.”

As he was trying to persuade me to desist from helping Troy B., Ingram used phrases such as, “You don’t want anything bad to happen to your wife and child”!

I was told by an employee of Goldman’s at the time (1994) that he had recently hired a private investigator from Marysville to train three of his employees on how to carry out surveillance, and that they purchased equipment such as cameras and recorders. I was told in enough detail (including the names of the investigator and the employees) that I believe the account. I strongly suspect (but don’t know) that they did indeed engage in surveillance, including on me.

IMO, it is important to realize that these activities reveal not only the being of Goldman, but the being of Burton, his Teacher and Maximum Leader. In 1994, a casual visitor to Goldman’s office could overhear Goldman plotting with Burton on the phone on how to proceed with the Buzbee case. Such a visitor could only infer that this was a conversation between two low criminals.

Another example… I mentioned the letter sent to Sharole Mannering (a.k.a. Sheila Cousins) a few posts ago. This is a demonstration of the true level of being of Beloved Teacher. The letter was on Fellowship of Friends letterhead.
______________________________________
March 27, 1980

Sharole Mannering
Philadelphia Centre

Dear Sharole,
As you requested, herein are the angles the Teacher offered to you.
“Tell Sharole hello for me. And tell her to remember she is working with Influence C and that she needs to be a good businesswoman with them. Tell her that she has held on this long and that there is no reason she cannot hold on eternally: that is, until she becomes an angel. Remind her that this is C Influence speaking directly with her through me. Remind her that this is their way of warning her and that she has to become current with her donations now or she will have to leave the Fellowship. Tell her that the only other place to go is hell.”

Those are his words, Sharole. Good luck to you.

Sincerely,
S/James
______________________________________

Note: Sheila was originally from the Tahoe Center, moved east, and then back. She died of cancer in the hospital in Reno.

167. Panoritsa - July 5, 2009

These are a few words for a man I have always trusted; a member of the FOF who seemed to have common sense and did not buy all that nonsense some of us did.

That man surprised me when he told me yesterday he had decided to leave the FOF. After a huge part of his life in, he got liberated.

Had a lovely day at the beach together. Talked with his wife; a hero in my eyes. She stood by him all those years. She took all the shit we gave her and she kept on loving him and caring for him. He was not always kind to her. And after the first decade in the FOF passed, she decided to mention nothing more of her nightmares.

Many years ago she visited OH. She had a dream after that. The white house Burton lived; tables covered with white tablecloths; crystal glasses; flower arrangements; and they were all toasting; drinking poison…. I shivered….

My friend; I thought… does not have to fight with so many demons as some other ex-members. I am wrong.

We are all contaminated. We all need time to recover.

My friend looked bright and healthy yesterday. His wife was relieved. That weight on her shoulders for years and years….But we all knew we have quite a way to go to catch up with our lives.

168. WonderingWhosWatching - July 5, 2009

165. Panoritsa:

‘they were all toasting; drinking poison…. I shivered….’

Not poison for the physical body; poison for the mental and psychic bodies – still going on, I guess?!

169. fofblogmoderator - July 5, 2009

152 & 164 are new

170. Jomo Piñata - July 5, 2009

Sharole Manering letter is here:

http://bit.ly/1a2KcN

171. brucelevy - July 5, 2009

172. Opus111 - July 5, 2009

Sarah Palin may have left the governorship of Alaska to join the FOF. Indeed, the FOF, with its ever growing fundamentalism and nuttiness, may be the perfect place for this ex-cheerleader. Sarah has had her difficulties making sense, and she and REB could compare notes about a variety of subjects: impending doom, the russians, literacy, etc… Although her fair sex will put her at an obvious disadvantage, there is little in the FOF that a little cash cannot solve.

Todd Purdum learned, as he traveled Alaska reporting on Palin for Vanity Fair, that the governor’s erratic and egoistic behavior has been a source of concern for people there.

“Several told me, independently of one another,” Purdum writes, “that they had consulted the definition of ‘narcissistic personality disorder’ in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders — ‘a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy’ — and thought it fit her perfectly.”

173. Opus111 - July 5, 2009

Excerpt above was from the New York Times: “http://http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/opinion/05dowd.html?_r=1&em

174. Yesri Baba - July 6, 2009

Student (brainwashed sheep): “Robert that letter was just wrong. She is going through a very difficult time.”

Robert (evil psychopathic motherfucker): “These are dire times. I need pastel suits and I intuit the need for hundreds of palm trees and waterbuffalo. camels and exotic animals. c-influence wants us to build an ark. The world is ruled by the lower self … goodness you can stop licking my anus now and shove that long beautiful cock all the way up my asshole ohhhhhh…. our ark will carry our higher consciousness and values for future civilization.
Did you talk to that new russian boy about coming down here? I just love sucking new cock.
Be sure to keep doing the sequence while you fuck me. This is a good opportunity for you to do work. It is necessary to be present while you are fucking your teacher up the ass or coming in his mouth.”

——————–

Poison? Does anyone think contact with that kind of evil will not have profound effects for a very long time.

175. Renald - July 6, 2009

For Ames mostly. Here is part of a personal communication from a retired top lawyer in Washington re. legal responsability on the blog.

“I think it’s always a bad idea to put forth violence-encouraging statements on the internet. I think when an actual corporation, like Fox news does it by giving O’Reilly a microphone, it may be actionable, if somebody later gets killed, and the proof of causal relationship can be demonstrated. I think when individuals put up blogging posts on the internet, even if they are violence encouraging they may not be actionable at law (although clearly they are immoral and unethical and cowardly). You need a publisher with deep pockets whose action is done knowingly and willingly, not just a site that carries blogger posts on the internet. In the case of O’Reilly, they actually were making money, big money profits by selling advertising next to his toxic spew of hateful comments. So hate was being used as a cash source. Commercial speech is afforded far fewer protections under our Constitution than pure political speech or pure private comment (opinions offerred by bloggers). Once a company is making money by the act of publishing, it has a higher level of duty to ensure that nobody gets hurt from what it is putting out there.—— ………… — but I think it’s the law as we have it today. “

I thought this might offer some insight re. the intent of copyright laws.

As you were, soldiers!

Cheers!

176. DXP - July 6, 2009

172, Opus, If you are uncritically slurping up Todd Purdam you have not moved on even one bit.

177. brucelevy - July 6, 2009

176. DXP

Is that a joke, or are you just a reactionary Alaskan?

178. brucelevy - July 6, 2009
179. in2it - July 6, 2009

A few creepy facts about the Fellowship of Friends cult:

— The cult leader, Robert Earl Burton, regularly has sex with many of his male followers.
— Burton charges large amounts of money for membership.
— Burton uses that money to live lavishly.
— Burton spent over 30 years predicting nuclear war in 2006 and that the Fellowship of Friends would become an “ark” for a new civilization.
— Burton spent over 20 years predicting that California would fall into the Pacific ocean in 1998.
— Anyone who openly discusses the above facts or questions the cult leader has routinely been kicked out of the cult.
— Members believe that they will lose all spiritual possibilities and be “food for the moon” after their deaths if they leave the cult.
— Friendship with former members is forbidden or strongly discouraged.
— Members, if they don’t believe any of the above, still believe that by leaving the cult they will lose their closest friends.

180. DXP - July 6, 2009

Bruce, There are lots of intelligent reasons to politically not support any political figure, but obnoxious ramblings about their children and silly “rumors” are not smart. Neither is name calling. Neither is crowd emotion that is not based on fact. If Purdam discussed facts and not a bunch of sexist classist crap then he would be worth a read. There are far more intelligent critiques of Palin. Also, it is a real distraction to the terrible job the democrats are doing in the white house and congress – promoting and continuing conservative policies. But be entertained if you want. If you want to frame debate in either/or terms then that is not what I call moving on.

181. WhaleRider - July 6, 2009

in2it:

A few creepy delusions,/strong> the followers of the Fellowship of Friends cult are under:

– Followers are under the delusion that their group is not a cult.
– Followers are under the delusion that having regular sex with the cult leader, Robert Earl Burton, is good for their evolution and required by God.
– Followers are under the delusion that the donations they pay are not cult membership fees.
– Followers are under the delusion that paying large amounts of money for membership in a cult will secure their place in heaven.
– Followers are under the delusion that Burton deserves to live lavishly on cult membership fees while followers suffer in poverty.
– Followers are under the delusion that they are free to leave at any time, but don’t want to.
– Followers were under the delusion that there would be a nuclear war in 2006 and that the Fellowship of Friends would become an “ark” for a new civilization.
– Followers were under the delusion that California would fall into the Pacific ocean in 1998.
– Followers are under the delusion that anyone who displays critical thought or questions the cult leader lacks valuation and should be kicked out of the cult.
– Followers are under the delusion that their cult is the one and only place for spiritual development.
– Followers are delusion that if they leave the cult they become “food for the moon” along with every other non-follower on the planet.
– Followers are under the delusion that friendships with former members will harm their evolution.

182. brucelevy - July 6, 2009

180. DXP

What the hell does Palin (which is happening now) have to do with “moving on”? And WHOSE “moving on”, yours?

183. DXP - July 6, 2009

Bruce, you need to re-read the comment thread.

184. Ill Never Tell - July 6, 2009

179. in2it:

‘– Members believe that they will lose all spiritual possibilities and be “food for the moon” after their deaths if they leave the cult.’

181. WhaleRider :

– Followers are [under the] delusion that if they leave the cult they become “food for the moon” along with every other non-follower on the planet.

Hey, don’t you mean that when members jump the fellatio ship they become excellent candidates for another cult: the Moonies? [Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church]

185. brucelevy - July 6, 2009

183. DXP

I just did. I think it’s relatively pertinent to compare two people with NPD, even though one’s grandiosity is limited to this cosmos, and the other’s knows no cosmic bounds. Rumors or no rumors, she’s clearly one sick puppy. As is the Princess.

186. in2it - July 6, 2009

Oh well, yeah, I thought Opus 111’s comparision was apt. In my opinion, there’s a lot of evidence that Palin and Burton both have a type of NPD.

Also, I like these kind of comparisons. They help me understand Burton and the FOF better, and in my opinion they can help all of us understand FOF/Burton better. There have been many such comparisons on the blog… comparing the fof to scientology, and to other cults. Comparing Burton to many people in politics. And comparing the group think of the FOF to extremism today and historically — e.g., Europe in the 1930s and early 1940s. With these comparisons, I think we understand the FOF and Burton a lot better.

So, I don’t get the objections to the Palin comparison. I think if someone were a supporter and voted for her, I could understand taking offense — one doesn’t usually vote for a candidate if they believe they have a personality disorder. I just happen to believe that she does, and that it’s helpful to see the same red flags in her that we can see in Burton.

187. DXP - July 6, 2009

Bruce, anyone can assert that someone else has some sort of mental disorder (particularly NPD which has no formal diagnosis as does schizophrenia) if they wish to demean them. As a Sunday psychologist I could say you have several mental disorders, but would just calling you those names make it true? Need some boundaries here. This is just what the fof does, terms people things like “life people” “man number 7” and so on and so on and then assumes it it true and actually means something. It means nothing, it is a method of control. So is insulting and thereby dismissing them by racism, sexism, classism etc. Robert’s issues are not that he is from a lower class, is gay, is old or whatever. His issues are how he controls other people.

188. brucelevy - July 6, 2009

187. DXP

Actually there is a check list that’s fairly widely used in diagnosing NPD. But be that as it may I agree that “His issues are how he controls other people”. But that’s not even close to RB’s only issues, it’s more of a “symptom” of much larger issues. One can object to how a CEO controls people, I think RB’s sociopathic element includes many aspects besides the “control”. And one can assert something as true without the main objective being to “demean” someone. The accusation to “demean” is a straw man, and a frequent complaint to cast aside the main point of an observation.

189. brucelevy - July 6, 2009

Like the media being “mean” to Palin. Just imagine McCain having been elected and then having a heart attack. Mean, insulting, I don”t think so. That’s not the point. The point with Palin is having come that close, and a heart beat away from the Presidency. Do you think we would all have been “ok” with that whack job as our President for 4 years. Fuck “mean”, fuck “insulting”, the point is to expose truth and protect the people from a sicko, or from a pseudo-guru.

190. in2it - July 6, 2009

DXP, I wouldn’t characterize our opinions about Palin as “demeaning”, nor attribute them to anything else than having a political view that is non-republican. I still say the comparison with Burton is apt.

Asserting that someone has a mental disorder is not the same as “calling someone names,” as you suggest. Something is off about Palin — that’s my opinion, and a huge percentage of people in this country agree with me about that. Personally, I also find it disturbing that about 46% of this country voted for her, just as I find it disturbing that about 15,000 people (including me) have followed Burton at one time or another.

Now, you may be a Republican, or a moderate Democrat who didn’t like Obama, or whatever… I have no idea. But you seem to be taking offense about any criticism against Palin and feel the need to step in here and defend her.

Well, guess what: There was a time when I reacted very similarly whenever someone criticized Burton. So believe me, I do understand.

191. brucelevy - July 6, 2009
192. DXP - July 6, 2009

About NPD, I spoke at length about it with an actual psychologist about a year ago. It was interesting. No one -ever- comes to a psychologist for treatment of it, and psychologists and psychiatrists only treat them in jail. They often land in jail because they have no conscience.

Just going to some website for a check list of a probably “fairly widely used” diagnosis of a mental disorder may have some benefits, but, again, boundaries are needed. I have found the power of the blog not in amateur mental diagnosis, but in real stories. I remember when Whalerider appeared and because of his courage evoked conscience and a real awakening. He was not the only one – you have too Bruce. But it was not by assigning Robert a psychological diagnosis, but by telling real experiences, thoughts, feelings and life.

The issue IS about control. Robert has the right to and delusions he may have about himself, but does he have the right to control people with them? Some of his control issues seem to be illegal, some are wrong morally and some spiritually. I could “study” under any delusional person I wish but where are the boundaries?

193. DXP - July 6, 2009

In2it, my political views are very far to the left, so I don’t like Palin’s politics. Nor do I like the current administrations for the most part since it is continuing many of the previous policies and catering to wall street profits. It is the best we can get but I don’t mind putting pressure on government – or questioning the democrats who are completely in power now. I do think that Purdam and Dowd are hacks and think the level of political awakeness is very low. But it is crowd emotion, so we all like the show. Still it means nothing.

194. in2it - July 6, 2009

DXP,
There’s some disagreement about what all of the specific symptoms are for NPD. But I think you pointed out one of the main symptoms — lack of conscience. I think it’s helpful to see Burton in this light, because it helps explain how he can succeed with the scam and how others can be lured into it. If we see him as someone with a conscience, that’s partly what made us vulnerable to him. In my opinion, that’s his biggest weapon — the tendency for people to believe that he has a conscience, is acting in good faith, means well, and so on.

I’ve noticed some resistance to this topic from a number of people (current and ex followers). I find that interesting, too. But again, I personally believe the discussion of NPD is relevant and useful for really understanding Burton and the FOF.

195. brucelevy - July 6, 2009

192. DXP

“The issue IS about control.”

No, it’s NOT about control. It’s about control and much, much more. And your didactic reduction of it to one issue, because you say it is, doesn’t mean shit.

“Just going to some website for a check list…”

Yes, I know, who can trust the fly-by-night Mayo Clinic.

“About NPD, I spoke at length about it with an actual psychologist about a year ago.”

Right. Set aside the obvious group of “psychologists” who are frequently more fucked up than their patients, and who decided, in their fuck-up state, that they wanted to “help people”.

“No one -ever- comes to a psychologist for treatment of it, and psychologists and psychiatrists only treat them in jail.”

Does everything you think come out as absolutes? Your above statement makes you look like a fool, regardless of what your psychologist friend said during several hours.

196. in2it - July 6, 2009

192. DXP, it looks like we may actually agree on some political viewpoints. Let’s see where Obama is taking us. I have friends who believe the Dems and Republicans are just as bad. But I’m a lot more comfortable with Obama in office than with McCain and/or Palin.

A LOT more comfortable.

—-

184. Ill Never Tell: “Hey, don’t you mean that when members jump the fellatio ship they become excellent candidates for another cult: the Moonies? [Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church]”

Moon, by the way, is a well-known Republican supporter (Washington Times, etc.).

197. brucelevy - July 6, 2009

192. DXP

So, using your belief system, I should assume that all the “couples” who have gone into therapy and subsequently found that one of them is a narcissist, is not really there for that, unless one of them is in jail already. Unless they commit an atrocious crime and is put away, none of the other people with NPD in therapy are really even there, or are really suffering from NPD. Can you see how absurd your suppositions sound?

But I will state the obvious, and you are welcome to google it, that Narcissists are one of the most difficult types to treat, with the majority in the psyc field admitting that efficacious treatment is almost an impossibility. You can give them new “acts”, but the pathology is still there. And the new “acts” can actually make them much more of a threat to humanity.

198. in2it - July 6, 2009

By the way, the use of the word “judgment” is interesting when it comes to what is allegedly preferable on the blog, in a cult, or wherever. Most people posting here have a negative connotation of the word. i.e., “Do not judge lest ye be judged,” or something similar.

But judgments are also what you make when you’re thinking critically. Judgments, good ones or poor ones, are what lead to decisions — to join a cult or leave a cult.

I think part of the healing process of leaving a cult is learning how to remove that negative connotation from the word “judgment” and seeing that “judgment” is a necessary ingredient of opening your eyes and seeing something clearly and accurately.

That Robert Burton suffers from narcissistic personality disorder is a type of judgment. Saying that many followers and ex-follwers suffer from NPD Victim Syndrome or somethign similar may also seem like a judgment. That’s because it is.

It’s this type of judgment, when you begin to see that something is not neutral or benign, that you’re able to make a sound decision, leave the cult, and begin the healing process. By avoiding “judgment,” we’re essentially screwed.

199. in2it - July 6, 2009

So, Bruce, Whalerider, Ames, DXP, and others… Thank you one and all for your judgment. It’s helped me through the process, and I think it has helped many, many others…

judgment…. its many definitions:

1 a: a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion b: an opinion so pronounced
2 a: a formal decision given by a court b (1): an obligation (as a debt) created by the decree of a court (2): a certificate evidencing such a decree
3 acapitalized : the final judging of humankind by God b: a divine sentence or decision ; specifically : a calamity held to be sent by God
4 a: the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b: an opinion or estimate so formed
5 a: the capacity for judging : discernment b: the exercise of this capacity
6: a proposition stating something believed or asserted.

Keep on judging, please, using definitions 4, 5 and 6.

200. nigel harris price - July 6, 2009

…..posts 190-196…..

Shall we take the term…..Narcissistic Personality Disorder….

Narcissistic…..self-loving
Personality…..lack of Essence
Disorder…..out of order (balance?)

See, the thing is that probably Burton does suffer from this, and it is very unlikely that any psychiatrist or psychologist would want to treat him, since his traits are so deeply embedded by the length of time he has acted out his ‘scheme’. It is more than likely that he would be sent to a high-security unit in a psychiatric hospital or jailed in isolation, were he to be brought to justice (as I, personally, hope he will be). From my experience with my own disorder, the psychiatric fraternity is willing to ‘work with’ people who have some sort of self determination about coming to terms with their ‘problem’. Does anyone actually think Burton would ‘repent’ (in the true meaning of the word)? Does anyone believe he would withstand a court hearing about his behaviour?…..Nigel.

201. Opus111 - July 6, 2009

My mentioning of the NYT article was a perhaps lame attempt at some humour. I have gotten quite a few good laughs from listening to Sarah Palin, yet, like many others here, was gullible enough to stay in the FOF for (too) many years.
The value of the NPD hypothesis when it comes to REB, has been to realize that much of the behaviour that I once attributed to “being conscious and therefore under different laws”, could easily be explained by the features of a relatively common mental illness. It helped me diffuse some of the attachment to higher consciousness stuff. One can also easily understand that “delusion of grandeur and lack of empathy” can be fed to no end in a cult like the FOF. By the way, I have learned as you did that there is no real cure for this disorder, apart from keeping others out of harm’s way (the aforementioned “draining the victims pool”).

202. nigel harris price - July 6, 2009

further to 200 Opus 111…..

Think of some words that one would affix to the term – ‘conscious being’….

Compassion…..(strongly) feeling with
Empathy…..(one meaning someone told me)…..”your pain in my heart”
Conscious…..knowing (intellectually and emotionally) things together
Wisdom…..ability to discern right judgement

Burton uttered some ‘pretty good’ words of advice, which I still remember, since I paid dearly to hear them (nearly with my life), but hardly did he ever act on his own sayings…..Nigel.

203. fofblogmoderator - July 6, 2009

191 is new

204. DXP - July 6, 2009

Bruce, yes, no one goes to get a lack of conscience treated. Yes, they get dragged there by a spouse, parent, authority, but they don’t think there is something ‘wrong’ about them other than not getting just what they want. OK, the exception might be if someone who lacked conscience went to a hot psychiatrist who they wanted something from. But it would not be for treatment. I thought it was an interesting point – sorry it irritated you.

in2it, there will most likely be a confusion of language in talking about NPD. But there are some people who do lack conscience. In my unprofessional, but with personal experience, opinion, Robert does lack a conscience. It is very easy for those people to gain power over others who do have consciences. For one thing if you have one you assume everyone else does too. Then again in the fof it was gradually devalued. Consciousness was stressed and conscience was dismissed – and this was even in the olden days when some in the fof actually had an interest in the 4th way. It was an insidious process – like being that frog when the water was being heated up. In my view consciousness and conscience co-exist and co-evolve so a man like Robert who is not working to evolve his conscience only stresses consciousness.

It IS a personal choice to “study” with Robert, we do have religious freedom. For a “student” there IS an issue of giving up control and the master taking control. Bruce, it may not be reduced to being ONLY that – I’m not saying that. But that does not mean it is not an issue. Certainly it has spiritual, moral (to do with conscience) and legal aspects. If a person has no conscience then he (as in Robert) couldn’t care less what his control over another does to that person – it just does not factor in. IMO he crosses many boundaries – including legal!

Ridicule – as in comparing him with Palin who is being publicly ridiculed at the moment – is fun, and we all might really like to ridicule him as we felt he did to us. It might influence current members, but might not as well.

I wonder if his fundamentalist apologists, procurers and handlers have let their consciences atrophy – being easy to outsource that function to someone who does not have it. If so it would be horribly painful to start it functioning again, but worth the pain.

205. Renald - July 6, 2009

“196. brucelevy – July 6, 2009
192. DXP

“So, using your belief system, I should assume that all the “couples” who have gone into therapy and subsequently found that one of them is a narcissist, is not really there for that, unless one of them is in jail already. Unless they commit an atrocious crime and is put away, none of the other people with NPD in therapy are really even there, or are really suffering from NPD. Can you see how absurd your suppositions sound?

But I will state the obvious, and you are welcome to google it, that Narcissists are one of the most difficult types to treat, with the majority in the psyc field admitting that efficacious treatment is almost an impossibility. You can give them new “acts”, but the pathology is still there. And the new “acts” can actually make them much more of a threat to humanity.“

The last two sentences is what I would like to address. “You can give them new “acts““ “and the new “acts“ can actually make them much more of a threat to humanity.“ This statement rang a bell for me. Imo. giving people a “new act“ is exactly what went on when I joined the Fellowship of Friends. It is my strong opinion that “ faking it“ works very well when attempting to change personality characteristics. Repeated attempts at faking it, or taking on a new act is exactly what people often do throughout their lives. They take on roles and they become those roles.

This taking on of acts works both for the better or for the worse. Why? It is a matter of focus. It is kind of a what you see is what you get. I have been propounding this all along. Attention to anything will cause it to grow, psychologically speaking at least.

I do understand your point and fear that learning new acts can help make things worse but I would qualify that statement by saying that Imo the worst case scenario is likely to happen after a partial therapy as compared to a lengthy enough one where habit has not had enough time to become welded to the person. I can also see that the narcissist would only be faking it to serve his own crooked purpose. That is okay, once the deed is done, once the behavior has become engrained, a flip takes place just as it did in the first place.

The Fellowship of Friends is organized disemnation of acts. Plenty has been said about what most would call unsavoury parts of acts and of course that is difficult to refute, not that I would want to.

Taking on new acts is exactly what boot camp is all about.
Taking on new acts is what joining a political party is all about.
So on, and so on it goes. I can describe the process using law of attraction terminology or I can simply describe the process as attention and adaptation-based. It is all the same.

For example, when I read a whole lot of your posts, my thinking changes a bit and I start to derive enjoyment from them. Then I can read a series of someone else`s and I am again swayed. What matters in the brain-washing process is the duration of the role play.
This has been shown scientifically with experiments in psychology, you may remember some of those from academia of long ago.

I can predict that thoughts of “well maturity simply does not exist here.“ or this comes from an undeveloped person. It is my understanding (point of view if you wish) that I am not the only one around this planet, or blog for that matter, who has been influenced quite strongly by “the acts“. I look at myself and easily see where distancing myself from the old environments and habits has led to seemingly concrete change. The way in and the way out is not as difficult as the medical people like to make it out and some of them know the unreality of it, most do not and it is obvious to me why and why not.

Thanks for your post. As you can tell I believe that you have stumbled on to a large gold nugget. or were you just faking it?
Cheers!

206. veramente - July 7, 2009

200 Nigel
Does anyone actually think Burton would ‘repent’ (in the true meaning of the word)? Does anyone believe he would withstand a court hearing about his behaviour?…..Nigel
_______________________
Year ago I remember some people (ex-“students”) where considering and even trying to visualize this possibility that Burton could repent, ask for collective forgiveness and perhaps even go to psycotherapy.
How can you un-crystallize someone like him?
Am I also responsible for having added to his sense of grandeur with my adoration to him when I was a blind follower?
Was he a big lesson I needed to learn and overcome? I guess I can ask so many more theoretical questions about this extraordinary/unfortunate choice of becoming his “student”, there may be no end.
The fact is that Burton is a criminal with mental illness, he continues spreading damage with the help of the mini burtons who are simply SERVANTS to him. No more, no less. They become dirt (for the moon) as soon as they leave.
He needs to be stopped. No but’s.

207. Another Name - July 7, 2009

for DXP and others to study up on NPD…

They do exist….Sam Vakin.

208. Tatyana - July 7, 2009

198. in2it

Brilliant! Totally agree!

209. 411 - July 7, 2009

When I was in the Fellowship Of Friends and people would ask if I’ve verified C influence, I felt like I really didn’t know what to say. Members, especially Burton talk so freely about this amazing “C influence”. It made you feel that you owed it to the cult to ponder your “relationship” with this all-knowing celestial entity. I used to say that I thought I had verified them because it seemed like my life was being guided by something. There seemed to be a lot of cause and effect but also a lot of “divine intervention” occurring.

All I can tell you now is that if C influence was “working openly” with me then, then they are STILL working with me. I think that the current membership needs to hear from former members regarding the idea that you do not lose your connection to anything by leaving. Sure they see a few people here spewing “negativity” and they think that will be their fate if they leave. There is actually much more well thought out contributions posted here then the few people getting pissed-off from time to time and writing negative comments. Most of my day is not involved with negativity and I still use the principles of scale and relativity to transform many circumstances that could lead to a mechanical, negative reaction.

It seems to me that if current members read this blog, they must surely start to question Burton’s unending appetite for young men’s penises, the fact that he hasn’t spent one minute alone by himself for 40 years, etc….. Let’s use our imaginations for a minute. Can you imagine Burton in solitary confinement for any given length of time? He would have to ponder all the people he has abused and disregarded over the course of 40 years. I don’t care how many palm trees he planted and how many green cards were obtained through his “generosity”. he did a lot of harm to a lot of people and he spewed a lot of made-up fiction for decades.

Current members need to know that there are beautiful inexpensive concerts, museums, gardens, New Years Eve Balls, etc all over the planet. Burton has never been an innovator. He’s been an imitator for 40 years. Everything you find in the Fellowship of Friends can be found outside of the FOF including many wonderful friendships. Please current members, you owe it to your evolution (if there is such a thing) to ponder these questions and stop reciting the mantra; “I’m getting what I paid for”

210. DXP - July 7, 2009

411 – great comment! The last paragraph is so light, emotional and alive.

another name etc, I don’t dispute if NPD “exists” or not. Of course it is a named mental disorder. But those who have it do not seek treatment as they are perfectly satisfied with how they are. They DO often get treatment only in jail or from some other non-relational authority (except perhaps parents) because they really cannot be in a close responsible relationship with others which requires some amount of conscience. IMO Robert has no conscience and if that is an exact match for NPD or not is a matter of quibbles.

I thought this was interesting from the Mao Clinic site:

“Criteria for narcissistic personality disorder to be diagnosed include:

* Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
* Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power or beauty
* Believing that you are special and can associate only with equally special people
* Requiring constant admiration
* Having a sense of entitlement
* Taking advantage of others
* Inability to recognize needs and feelings of others
* Being envious of others
* Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner
………

“Doctor, I want you to treat me because I’m so very special and my associates/suplicants are also special. I’m a very special person, the one and only teacher in fact, and have a wonderful special flock of followers who do so very very much for me – everything actually, and I absolutely deserve it, much more than that other teacher who I declared ‘asleep’. And all those bad ex-sheep who I denounce. They are dead because they just cannot see that I am unbelievably cosmically the most special person to ever manifest.” —– I don’t think this happens. I predict that it will not happen with Robert Burton. If one has no conscience it cannot be awakened.

211. Yesri Baba - July 7, 2009

411

pffft

212. WhaleRider - July 7, 2009

DXP:
“But those who have it (NPD) do not seek treatment as they are perfectly satisfied with how they are.”

IMO, that is a gross oversimplification of a complex disorder. Deep down someone with NPD is actually not at all satisfied with who they are; thus they usually seek treatment for a drug, alcohol or some other kind of compensatory addiction secondary to the NPD.

I still wouldn’t hold my breath that Burton would seek treatment for anything other than a prescription for pain medication or Viagra.

213. DXP - July 7, 2009

Whalerider, Possibly it is an oversimplification but then again I was not trying to completely define a psychological disorder with that tidbit. Possibly the concept of the disorder is evolving too. It is a relatively new classification. My point was that Robert is not likely to seek treatment for this disorder. He is much more likely to sick his fundamentalist attack dogs on any one or entity (like the blog) that tries to get in his way. Yes, I think he is a sick person.

How do you know how someone with no conscience feels deep down? I just do not see that Robert, ‘deep down’, cares one bit how his actions impact others – especially those who he feels entitled to, like his boys for sex and his money sources. Conscience is a consciousness of personal relations and boundaries, and the viagra and alcohol and drugs do not provide boundaries. Nor do they add anything to his ability to relate to others and often they increase relational distance. Conscience is all about relating to others, and oneself too. It is the recognition that others exist.

214. in2it - July 7, 2009

Yep. I think the diagnosis of NPD (whether it’s a lay diagnosis or not) is helpful for NPD “victims” more than the person who “has” it. Or to put this another way, the best way to avoid becoming a victim of someone else’s NPD is to recogize they have it.

(Imagine that as a topic at an FOF meeting. Lots of people squirming in their seats.)

One of the symptoms of NPD is the inability of a person to acknowledge to themselves — or others — any faults, shortcomings, or mental neuroses in themselves, so by definition they obviously will never acknowledge NPD in themselves or seek treatment for it.

Where I find the FOF/RB NPD diagnosis useful (lay diagnosis or not) is in recognizing when you’re hoping for change in someone who is abusive or manipulative or harmful to us. If we keep thinking they’re going to change, we’re lost. Although many people don’t come out and say it this way, I think one of the reasons that people continue on in the FOF is that they believe something will change. Something will change. Something will change. Something will change.

If this sounds unforgiving or seems like a severe attitude about someone, here’s another thought: With NPD, the best form of forgiveness is leaving.

215. Tatyana - July 8, 2009

I just heard that one of my russian friends is having a hard time and considering to leave FOF. He is very depressed that he was RB’s prostitute for 10 years… Not an easy moment…

216. DXP - July 8, 2009

in2it, thank you for saying so succinctly what took me years to come to. Robert cannot be “saved” or even helped. It takes two to help and he will not help. I know I hesitated because it felt like such a loss. I experienced so much joy while in the fof that I projected that on the fof and hoped it (the form of the fof) could be salvaged – it felt like such a waste otherwise. In a way it felt like I was negating all the joy, all those “moments” I had experienced the years I was in.

It turns out the joy was not a product of the fof but of living life, and has increased. Leaving has so many benefits.

What one can do is help fellow members, current and ex and also it is very valid to work on the legal boundaries of the fof.

217. WhaleRider - July 8, 2009

Tatyana:
Let your Russian friend know he is not alone. He can post here without using his real name to get some support.

in2it:
You are so right, more often than not it is the children of a parent who has NPD that seek treatment. There are many good books on the subject of dealing with the narcissist in your life. One I recommend is “Trapped in the Mirror” by Elan Golomb. When I get a chance I’ll post some of it.

DXP:
“How do you know how someone with no conscience feels deep down?”

That is simple. They feel nothing. They occupy their time with getting the next rush. In Burton’s case, it’s the next sexual conquest or new set of diamond cufflinks.

218. Jomo Piñata - July 8, 2009

I agree that Trapped in the Mirror by Elan Golomb is worth reading as part of figuring out the significance of a parent’s narcissism in the offspring’s life.

Understanding the source of pain in the narcissism of a parent, even understanding it in a detailed and specific way, does not stop the emotional agony in the parent-child relationship. That’s my experience. I do think that understanding the source of pain allows a person to make new connections about where the pain in the relationship actually comes from, and allows a healing process to start. I think understanding is necessary, but it’s not enough. The fact is, there are some relationships that can’t be healed or transformed. They are what they are.

For me the healing process took a long time. But ultimately, given time, desire, understanding, and effort, one heals. At least I did.

219. brucelevy - July 8, 2009

220. Wouldnt You Like To Know - July 8, 2009

75/209. 411:

‘I think that the current membership needs to hear from former members regarding the idea that you do not lose your connection to [“C influence” or] anything by leaving.’

The main thing you may lose connection with are your so-called friends. Which means they really weren’t friends after all.

‘Everything you find in the Fellowship of Friends can be found outside of the FOF including many wonderful friendships.’

Fortunately, the being you have gained from your personal Fellowship of Friends experience will not be lost.

221. Wouldnt You Like To Know - July 8, 2009

Thanks Bruce for 221.

Teach Your Children
by Graham Nash

You, who are on the road
Must have a code
That you can live by.
And so, become yourself
Because the past
Is just a goodbye.

Teach your children well
Their father’s hell
Did slowly go by
And feed them on your dreams
The one they pick’s
The one you’ll know by.
Don’t you ever ask them why
If they told you, you would die
So just look at them and sigh
And know they love you.

And you, of tender years,
Can’t know the fears
That your elders grew by
And, so, please help
Them with your youth
They seek the truth
Before they can die.

[Counter Melody To Above Verse:]
Can you hear
and
Do you care
and
Can’t you see
We must be free
to
Teach your children
What you believe in.
Make a world
That we can live in.

Teach your parents well
Their children’s hell
Will slowly go by
And feed them on your dreams
The one they pick’s
The one you’ll know by.

Don’t you ever ask them why
If they told you, you would cry
So just look at them and sigh
And know they love you.

222. nigel harris price - July 8, 2009

221 Wouldnt You Like To Know

Have you noticed how very difficult it is to fool children? I do not have children of my own (or a wife, come to that), but communicate regularly with other people’s children – some of them are Ella, George and Anna, the offspring of my workshop landlord – they tell you about what they have been doing during the day and ask you what projects you are undertaking in the workshop. You can use ‘big words’ with them as long as you take the time to explain them. The thing about children is their willingness to try to understand things – the truth sits well with them, as they do not trust you too well after you have avoided telling it, through risk of being too complicated or thinking they are not mature enough to understand it.

When you come to think about it, was not the idea of the FOF developing an Ark to do with children – how they would inherit the ‘new civilisation’? Is is not strange that members of the FOF are thinking that they, themselves, are to be saved – some sort of ‘physical immortality’? How on earth are they going to leave a legacy when they have crass, though money-making, jobs and any ‘sniff of essence’ is indicated by REB and absorbed by “Robert told me I had a pink essence with raspberry polka-dots” sort of remarks.

Let’s face it, members, there is not going to be any Ark – the phrase in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer goes “World without end”…..Nigel.

223. Ellen - July 8, 2009

#215, Tatyana

Do what you can to listen to your friend. You needn’t project your understanding on him, but you can be open and help provide the space that encourages his own understanding to arise. In some ways that is the best any of us can do.

There is so much that can be done by the former members who have the situation to stay in Oregon House. They know so much, they understand so much that many of their former friends have not yet been able to acknowledge. I’m sure living there is often uncomfortable, yet everyone plays their part in this unraveling, from the blog-screamers to the dialectic-dialogers, to the quiet listeners.

The point is, bottom line: it’s not OK. It’s not OK for a teacher to abuse the trust of his students for his own personal gain. It’s not OK, and everyone knows this in their heart of hearts.

It’s so hard to accept that it requires False Personality to remain in the Fellowship, not to leave it.

224. WhaleRider - July 8, 2009

“There is a group of unsung victims whose number is very great. They often do not seek the help they need because they do not recognize that they suffer from a problem for which there is a solution. These are the children of narcissistic parents. I know their plight from the inside since I am one of them.

A friend asked me, “What are narcissists” Aren’t they people who think themselves special?” The answer is yes and no.

All healthy people regard themselves as special, unique beings capable of achievement and worthy of love, and it is no coincidence that this is exactly the way their parents saw them during their formative years.

People who are relatively free of narcissistic traits (most have some) do not attempt to place themselves above others.

They are unconcerned with such comparisons. They stay in touch with their feelings and try to do their personal best. Their standards are internal and realistic since they have a good idea of who they are and what they can accomplish (such objectivity is not significant).

Narcissists are wholly different. They unconsciously deny an unstated and intolerably poor self-image through inflation.

They turn themselves into glittering figures of immense grandeur surrounded by psychologically impenetrable walls.

The goal of this self-deception is to be impervious to greatly feared external criticism and to their own roiling sea of doubts.

This figure of paradox needs to be regarded as perfect by all.

To achieve this, he or she constructs an elaborate persona (a social mask which is presented to the world). The persona needs an appreciative audience to applaud it. If enough people do so, the narcissist is relieved that no one can see through his disguise.

The persona is a defensive schema to hide behind, like the false-front stores on a Western movie set. When you peer behind the propped-up wall, you find….nothing.

Because his life is organized to deny negative feelings about himself and to maintain an illusion of superiority, the narcissist’s family is forcibly conscripted into supporting roles. They have no other option if they wish to get along with him.”

~”Trapped in the Mirror”, Elan Golomb, PhD

225. Panoritsa - July 8, 2009

…Could not resist this one from the urbandictionary dot com…

“Sarah Palin Effect”

The principal that expertise on a certain subject can be gained through geographical proximity to it.

Gov. of Alaska, Sarah Palin, is a proclaimed expert on foreign affairs with Russia due to Alaska`s proximity to Russia and can thus be called the “Sarah Palin Effect”

226. Mikey - July 8, 2009

RE: Tatyana’s Russian Friend
Seems to me he would have excellent grounds to at least file a lawsuit. The disclosure alone would be enlightening. Maybe there is even a pot-o-gold for him or he could sell his silence. What fun.

227. Walter J. Tanner - July 8, 2009

Tatyana,

A few posts ago you were very upset with a friend who was still speaking from the false personality of FoF Robert-worship. And then came the good news that a friend (the same?) is considering leaving. Whichever the situation, you need to stick in there as a friend, be compassionate, for just as we do not know where the magnetic center comes from, we do not know the how’s or why’s of a current member realizing their situation and attempting the hard work of getting out. But when they do, they need friends. They are like G.’s parable of the prisoner, who needs help from the outside to escape.

Many here, whether from their own subjective verifications or just a blind hatred of Robert and students, dismiss the FoF as nothing but a vampiric con-game. For those people, perhaps it never was more than that. But I know a true magnetic center can blossom in the FoF, realize its situation, and then begin the real work against instinctive center, false personality, fear, identification and negative emotions. That final test, the second conscious shock, is repudiating Robert Burton and becoming your own evolutionary path.

Second and third line of work never ends, but the recipients of your efforts change. This blog is 3rd line work, and occasionally some of the back-and-forth here is 2nd line. To any students reading this, know that your evolution is your responsibility, Robert and the School (and Influence C, as RB teaches it) are the final obstacle, and that you have a secret circle, of wonderful people on this blog, who are helping you to escape.

An old acquaintance, still living in the Oregon House area, told me that the dynamic between former and current students has switched, now that the number of ex-students has outgrown the membership. I hope, and it surely seems to be the case, that the ex-students can keep an out-stretched hand of welcoming to all those making the final difficult decision to put the FoF behind them and begin the true transformation of suffering.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

228. DXP - July 8, 2009

Panorista, Luckily (!) Palin has no power over anyone. Unluckily Joe, dumb as a stump foot in mouth corporate owned, Biden does.

Walter, You framed the experience in the fof in a loose either or form. Either it was a vampiric con (absolutely wonderful phrasing btw!) or somewhere where ” I know a true magnetic center can blossom in the FoF, realize its situation, and then begin the real work against instinctive center, false personality, fear, identification and negative emotions.” Why not both? The “realizing its situation” is realizing that the form of the fof and the leader of the fof is wrong.

Its interesting that seekers are so vulnerable. Once a seeker finds something they become a consumer. That’s where cons come in – to take advantage of the consumer. I can understand slowly waking up and finding that what one was consuming was not in fact what one was seeking and all the loss thereby. Loss of the opportunity to actually satisfy that seeking, loss of years to do so, loss of valuation for that very seeking. What I cannot understand are the handlers and procurers for the vampiric con. What are they getting out of it? What are they consuming?

Also, when leaving then whatever one experienced/learned in the fof gets put into practice. Tatanya, for your friend, if he chooses to leave it will be a great maturing process, painful yes, but so very worth it. That may sound patronizing, but I don’t mean it that way. There are always earthly maturing processes up till the pain of physical death.

229. Yesri Baba - July 8, 2009

227 WJT

“Many here, whether from their own subjective verifications or just a blind hatred of Robert and students, dismiss the FoF as nothing but a vampiric con-game. For those people, perhaps it never was more than that.”

IMO your post is one valid way to view the fof experience. Yet for that to be the case, in actuality, it has to really be A VAMPIRITIC CON-GAME.

As for the quote above, may I suggest you not worry about what ‘many here’ may or may not dismiss.

(by the way, nice pic on the GF site)

230. Tatyana - July 8, 2009

Thank you all who replied to my message.
I posted it hoping that my friend occasionally comes here and will find support of all of you.
It takes time to untangle so many threads holding us in. Biggest of them is just not knowing how to survive in a foreign country. Another one is loss of a social network and support of RB. Finding one’s way in a middle of a community which is pointing fingers at you and saying “you are negative! you believe your I’s and negative ex-students! you are losing C influence!” can be very confusing. And at the same time suffering a realization that you were deceived and contributed way too much to a wrong cause and lost too much time doing the wrong thing.

It is a big step and one is making it when one is ready.

231. brucelevy - July 8, 2009

229. Yesri Baba

yup

232. Mikey - July 8, 2009

And a friendly “FU and the horse that brung you” to you Mr. Tanner:
Whether one had a “good” time or a “bad” time (or both) in the FOF is completely irrelevant. The FOF & its leadership are totally selfish, corrupt & perverted, and as such they are not capable of “helping” anyone.
(Not intended as an personal assault, but you would do well to wise up a little. Yesri is giving lessons).

233. sallymcnally - July 8, 2009

Tatyana:

‘Finding one’s way in a middle of a community which is pointing fingers at you and saying “you are negative! you believe your I’s and negative ex-students! you are losing C influence!” can be very confusing. And at the same time suffering a realization that you were deceived and contributed way too much to a wrong cause and lost too much time doing the wrong thing.’

Hello Tatyana:

That’s why I had to leave the community for awhile. Use of the ‘system’ of ideas we studied for so long is an enticing trap and trip to nowhere. If you really want to gain your personal power and self respect back you may want to consider leaving the area for a while just to get yourself grounded in your own space again. This ‘psychological baggage’ does not go away instantly or easily. If you’re caught in the middle of a storm it’s wise to try and find a safe place to ride it out.

234. brucelevy - July 8, 2009

Walter J. Tanner

My gift to you: About 80% of the stuff you post here has you coming off as a vain-glorious wannabe guru that so clearly is in love with your own picture of yourself that you are unable to see how transparently blind you are to yourself. Until you can see yourself a bit better you might want to hide your grandiosity where it can’t be so readily ridiculed. Most of us didn’t just get off the banana boat yesterday. It’s harder to hide one’s faults by blowing them up like a parade float.

235. ton - July 8, 2009

were i to give mr. tanner the benefit of a doubt, i would say that in his posts here he often comes off sounding like he’s still trying to squeeze lemonade from the fof lemon. remarks in his last post indicate to me that he’s still brainwashed — the effects of fof / ‘4th way’ indoctrination are not easy to shake. but if he’s using his book ‘knowledge’ and the ‘work’ lingo as a wanna be guru, to impress and recruit fof expats into an offshoot branch of the cult, well that’s misguided if not downright despicable. imo he would do well to re-read and and actually take-to-heart what sally wrote in her recent post:

“Use of the ’system’ of ideas we studied for so long is an enticing trap and trip to nowhere. If you really want to gain your personal power and self respect back you may want to consider leaving the area for a while just to get yourself grounded in your own space again. This ‘psychological baggage’ does not go away instantly or easily.”

236. DXP - July 8, 2009

it may be that Walter’s STYLE is keeping some people from understanding or addressing the substance of his last post. This part of what he said –

“To any students reading this, know that your evolution is your responsibility, Robert and the School (and Influence C, as RB teaches it) are the final obstacle, and that you have a secret circle, of wonderful people on this blog, who are helping you to escape.”

strikes me as true and also as very compassionate. Also, it meets a current member half way and sometimes that is a good thing. I read that as saying that one is responsible for one’s own soul and that one’s higher self is available and not owned by a vampiric con. Also that there are people who can offer support – and who WILL offer support. I’d say that was in essence a wonderful statement, however he languaged it. My only quibble with it is that the fof is not the “final obstacle”. One’s whole life is about evolving and the fof is just a part of that. There will always be obstacles in a spiritual practice or pursuit. I guess life would be boring without them! Also, I don’t think there is actually a “secret circle” but instead a blog and a rabble – and some friends. Again, not boring!

237. brucelevy - July 8, 2009

236. DXP

That’s why I specifically gave him the benefit of the 20%.

238. DXP - July 8, 2009

237, Bruce, Heh….. if all of our comments were 20% that good it would be a glorious day (not that it isn’t anyhow, actually in fact, now that I think of it, it IS a glorious day – and its summer)

239. Opus111 - July 8, 2009

DXT wrote:

What I cannot understand are the handlers and procurers for the vampiric con. What are they getting out of it? What are they consuming?

I think they get a different status, of the “close-to-the-teacher” variety. What they do with this status vary? Some use it to reinforce their delusions, the same delusion most of had of “being on the way”. Some use it to reinforce various tendencies they already have: power/money grubbing, promiscuity, parasitism… etc.

Few walk into the FOF, look around with their eyes wide open, and quickly walk away having realized their mistake and the true nature of that place and its leader. Most of us were too happy to be reassured “we had found the place”, like flies stuck to the flypaper. Most of the enablers and handlers, perhaps not all, have even more difficulty than the rest of the flock seeing they have been had. Some probably have NPD themselves. Empathy is certainly in short supply in that group.

240. in2it - July 8, 2009

Part of the brainwashing is the way the FOF strokes the ego… When the ego gets a hold of the so-called fourth-way ideas, it’s afraid to let go. That’s one of the reasons it’s hard to leave.

Some of the blog’s criticism of the FOF goes into a territory where we’re questioning everything about the FOF — not just Burton and his approach to the Fourth Way and his predictions and sexual manipulations of his followers — but everything… our attitudes about “awakening” and being a chosen group of people. We never used the word “chosen” but instead used such expressions as “lucky” and “Man No. 4” and “working on ourselves” and so on — all things that WE were doing but that no one else was doing. This not only separated us from the world and the entire universe (which is not a good thing in my opinion), but also from ourselves and the potential inspiration that fills each and every day everywhere we go.

The world is rich with possibilities and opportunities for a productive, rewarding, spiritual, and meaningful life. We choose whether we’re open to that or not. “From one angle,” (sorry), the FOF is all about closing ourselves off from those possibilities. That’s the choice we made. Ironic that “possibilities” was such a common word in the FOF, because we basically joined a man and group that was opposed to possibilities. We formed a world view that things were impossible, even if we never articulated it that way.

Of course, the only possibilities — so we believed — were in the cult.

To fully and completely and thoroughly question the FOF and Burton, I continue to find it really helpful to also question the ideas that brought me there.

I like a lot of what Walter wrote — but sometimes I get the same impression about him that Bruce describes. I also agree with DXP — that both can be true — a con job, and a place for “evolution.”

But what does evolution truly mean, and what have we truly verified about it? To me, one of the biggest steps toward “evolving” is setting aside the word “evolving” — or at least placing some quotation marks around it to remind myself that it’s an idea — a theory — just as the word “verification” is an idea, a theory.

Is it really so difficult to leave the FOF? Or is that what we keep telling ourselves? Maybe there is nothing more natural and effortless. But we’ve convinced ourselves so much that everything is “difficult” that perhaps we just found it “difficult” to see the open front door and the freedom and wonder on the other side of it.

241. nigel harris price - July 8, 2009

228 DXP

“What I cannot understand are the handlers and procurers for the vampiric con. What are they getting out of it? What are they consuming?”

‘Prestige sandwiches’ and support of their features, which we know to be the crux of false personality…..Nigel.

242. nigel harris price - July 8, 2009

226. Mikey – July 8, 2009

“RE: Tatyana’s Russian Friend
Seems to me he would have excellent grounds to at least file a lawsuit. The disclosure alone would be enlightening.”

I took the trouble to contact Ford Greene regarding any legal grounds I may have for ’emotional and financial grievance’ towards REB and the FOF. His answer (though ‘formatory’ – oops! foffing talk again!) is the way things are…..ANYONE HAVING A CLAIM AGAINST AN INSTITUTION SUCH AS THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS – I.E. A CHURCH, IS BOUND BY THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS, ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF THE LAND!!!!! I sincerely hope this student (or, soon to be, ex-student, we all on the blog hope) acts soon (I, myself do not know what the time limit is for such cases – I just ‘wrote off’ Greene as a dud case!) and he will find all the support he needs (hopefully, financial too). Here is the STUNNER!!!!! I do not think there is a Statute of Limitations regarding how long ago an ex-member witness left the Fellowship. Elena and I have been ‘busting a gut’ to get up on that stand in Supreme Court…..Nigel.

243. nigel harris price - July 8, 2009

Just turned on the TV and found the movie “Buster”, about the Great (British) Train Robbery and the ‘running code’ for the train was/is IM 44. No shit! Get it out of your local DVD rental store if you do not believe me! And for ‘train’, read ‘cortege’ (well, you get the meaning, even if my wording is not ‘spot-on’).

Let’s get that Robot (P)Earl (guzzling) Burdensome bastard!!!!!…..Nigel.

244. X-ray - July 9, 2009

215. Tatyana – July 8, 2009

‘I just heard that one of my russian friends is having a hard time and considering to leave FOF. He is very depressed that he was RB’s prostitute for 10 years… Not an easy moment…’

I bet you he feels stupid and embarrassed for fucking RB’s ass for 10 years literally for nothing.

245. brucelevy - July 9, 2009

215. Tatyana

“Not an easy moment…”

Not to mention the “moments” that lead to the realization.

246. DXP - July 9, 2009

in2it,

“But what does evolution truly mean, and what have we truly verified about it? To me, one of the biggest steps toward “evolving” is setting aside the word “evolving” — or at least placing some quotation marks around it to remind myself that it’s an idea — a theory — just as the word “verification” is an idea, a theory.”

I completely agree with this. I think its one reason exfof reject the fof lingo and the “spiritual evolution” lingo, because it gets in the way of life! By life I mean that which is alive. Self consciousness (as in always monitoring “how am I doing….more evolved?…..am I doing this right?…..more evolved yet?) is not awareness. It is not living life.

247. DXP - July 9, 2009

244 xray

“I bet you he feels stupid and embarrassed for fucking RB’s ass for 10 years literally for nothing.”

Well if we do the scale and relativity thing….. it was only HE (the, soon to be ex, student) that got f*cked. Think of the men and women who followed Bush and now Obama into torturing other people. General McCrystal seems to be one of the US leaders of torture ‘facilitation’ (general of special opps under Bush, recently promoted by Messiah Obama to general in charge of operations in Afghanistan). The people, rather low level military, ‘believe’ in something higher than themselves. And it leads them to torture. As far as military culture goes, I think sanctioned torture (and torture in general) is a very degenerative force. The closest thing in the fof is the handlers and procurers for Robert’s sexual torture. Sexual torture is pretty rough. It damages the torturee, but the torturer and procurer even more. Hell, it damages everyone in sight -wives, children, siblings and so on.

To be turned into an extremist fundamentalist torture facilitator, like the handlers and procurers of Robert, is one of the worst fates possible. So much horrible karma to be slogged thru. Torture facilitators are usually the victims of torture too but it is buffered. I think the “prestige sandwiches” is way too superficial an explanation for the hell these people are in. — I mean one of the COLD levels of hell. The ones who only get f*cked are much more lucky, actually. They can learn from it, but can break away much much much more cleanly. To get f*cked and then to turn around and get others the same as you got f*cked is a way other level of buffering.

This guy may feel embarrassed and stupid but he could feel so very much worse.

248. WhaleRider - July 9, 2009

ton:
thanks for this.

tatyana this is for your friend.

249. Dr. Pangloss - July 9, 2009

247. DXP

“The ones who only get f*cked are much more lucky, actually. They can learn from it, but can break away much much much more cleanly. To get f*cked and then to turn around and get others the same as you got f*cked is a way other level of buffering.”

You seem to be quite the expert on this subject. Is your apparent knowledge the fruits of direct experience and if so, were you one of the fucked or one of the facilitators? What’s your story?

250. harryhindsight - July 9, 2009

DMX,

Not exactly sure why, but when I read your last post, I get that funny feeling you’re a shill!

Distracting us from the David Springfield letter are we?

Harry.

251. Wouldnt You Like To Know - July 9, 2009

240. in2it:

‘We never used the word “chosen” but instead used such expressions as “lucky” and “Man No. 4″ and “working on ourselves” and so on. . .’

I don’t know where you have been, but, ‘Many are called, but few are chosen*,’ was bandied about a bit in my days. Now, it is better said, ‘Many are cold, but few are frozen.’

* Matthew 22:14

– – – – – –

‘What I cannot understand are the handlers and procurers for the vampiric con. What are they getting out of it? What are they consuming?’

What I found in the illustrious Fellowship of Friends cult was that ‘A’ influence was just as alive as anywhere else on the planet, if not more so, but it takes a different form there. Instead of being about money, job, title, career, etc., it was how to be in an important position that has significant impact over people’s lives – i.e. how to maximize your potential as a handler and procurer and screw with people – especially to be in position to do ‘fourth line of work’ – work ON other people.

252. Another Name - July 9, 2009

Thanks Bruce for “ teach your children well…..”, many old memories are connected with this song.

The discussion of NPD has triggered the following.

Have you ever asked yourself if you have any traits of this disorder? I used to live in a culture where many people would just love to talk about themselves. You would bring up a subject and yes before I knew it…they would talk about them selves. Family, friends etc. I asked three of my long time friends (over 30 years) if they have mostly people in their environment who just seem to bring most conversation subject to them selves. I see this as a slight form of narcissism. In the past, some test for personality disorders where mentioned on the blog. Test you could do yourself to see if you had some traits of NPD and I tested myself and my partner did too. We saw some interesting things about ourselves. What Robert and the fellowship have as traits of NPD, where are these traits s in me….Questions to live…

Yes I looked at my parents…are they narcissistic or…? With this in mind I observed several people and made several observations…IOW, it increased my awareness on the level of the narcissist personality in my environment….

This said, since I left the fellowship of friends I seemed to have wondered back to the path I left before I joined to fellowship of friends and back on my own search and path…
Why do I live?
What is the purpose of this live?
What do I have to do before I die?
And how to live a full live that can lead to a happy/ complete death.

Lots of things that I was not aware of are coming up from an unawareness that I was not able to see. Painful or not, I am living through it. Part of how I was treated as a child,( not feeling very safe), brought me to a fellowship of friends where I thought I was safe. AOIIIIIIIIICH). The last 2 years, after leaving the fellowship of friends I have been healing and questioning and searching for the meaning of my life. I had a recurrent event with my family and saw how “not” protected I must have felt as a child and maybe still. I had put up some mechanisms to survive and working on letting them go….as they are no longer useful. My increased awareness at least gives me possibilities, to try to make my live and others life better.

Thinking of one of the Russian friends who is thinking of leaving and how incredibly difficult it can be. I mostly benefited form my patient friends, who are/ were willing to listen to the different phases I went through.
Good “advises” or belittling like “you got something out of the fellowship of friends” or “time will heal”, did not work for me at all. Or the people who took it over and start to tell me their story….did not work for me. The friends, who listened, accepted me and my pain and disillusion and where just there for me…sometimes asking questions, they were the healers. And again, thanks for all of them for being there for me.
The friends who could sit with me when I was sad, depressed, when I grieved and when they would know the difference. The friends who assured me I did not have to be different, not had to FEEL different, was a big relief. Finally learning to get in touch with what I need and what is good for me instead of the put of layer of the fellowship of friends.

Silence and being by myself was a healing experience for me.

If people ask me what was good of the fellowship of friends, I can only say the people and the regret that I had not left way earlier. How can consciousness come from all these delusions, lies and stories? I do not see it.

253. brucelevy - July 9, 2009

Test for NPD

1. Think about yourself for a moment.

2. If you got to #2 you’re not a narcissist.

254. DXP - July 9, 2009

249 “You seem to be quite the expert on this subject. Is your apparent knowledge the fruits of direct experience and if so, were you one of the fucked or one of the facilitators? What’s your story?”

Maybe I should say outright that everything I write here is opinion. My personal opinion (sorry if I put things out so strongly it implies I’m an ‘expert’). I am not one of those, who Bruce rather aptly called, fucked up psychologists – or a research psychologist from the Mayo. Just a lay person as far as mental illness goes. I was a member of the fof and left a long time ago. Most everyone got fucked over (I guess we can say “fuck” on this blog) in one way or another in the fof and I was no exception. Maybe you were a procurer? I only observed them. I’m not saying that it is impossible for a procurer to break from the fucked up situation, but it must be really difficult.

Its also just an additional “angle” on Opus 111’s ‘status and delusions’ motivations for the legal defenders, handlers and procurers, my point being to add very deep buffering to the mix. “If I can do it to another it must not be so bad that it was done to me” sort of thing.

252 another name

I had a different healing path. I left at a time when there was no one willing to talk to me or listen to me at all about leaving so I had to do it on my own. I did experience this tho: “Silence and being by myself was a healing experience for me.” Also just letting myself be myself and not monitoring constantly my faults (features) or progress at being more than what I simply was at any given moment. And then there crept in a simple enjoyment of life – almost naughty. Turning up the rock and hip hop – loud. Being messy, laughing loud and long, communing with trees and an ocean, making new friends and community, and doing service for that community. These worked for me.

It was my personal, unprofessional experience that many fellow members had had a childhood experience that the fof experience reflected – and gave an opportunity to resolve. But since then I’ve met others who have experienced other forms of being dominated/overly influenced by someone who was sick (not sure if NPD is the correct diagnosis or not) and had to face it in another way – not as a cult member. Found that the fof experience is not all that unique. Not that special. Just human stuff actually.

250, Harry

DMX,

Not exactly sure why, but when I read your last post, I get that funny feeling you’re a shill!

I have no idea what you mean. If there is an important letter for you to address……address away. I am very much for legal boundaries on the fof, and realize it is very tricky. I applaud those who are called to pursue legal constraints on the fof! If you want me to stop posting comments in order to have ONLY the issue of that letter or other legal issues addressed then I’ll consider it. Let me know what you think.

255. nigel harris price - July 9, 2009

252 There is always the trait of sometimes wishing to talk about oneself…..sometimes it has a right place, sometimes not. Did not ‘big JC’ state…..”First seek and attain the Kingdom of God, then all these things will be added unto you”?…..Nigel.

256. Just the Facts Ma'am - July 9, 2009

254. DXP:

‘“If I can do it to another it must not be so bad that it was done to me” sort of thing.’

This is the number one rule of pecking order: pass the pain along – makes you feel good about the abuse endured by doing same/similar to others. This gives permission for a whole criminal process to get started, be maintained, and propagated ad infinitum. It also amplifies the abuse across the social structure.

In one sense, that is why the ‘lawyer letter’ by DS is rather interesting. It accounts of a situation where a pecked person (secretly voted off the Fellowship of Friends board of directors and fired as legal counsel) turns around and passes the pecking back upstream by writing a letter that attempts to reveal the faults of others (so-called: superiors (read: older students)) and/or the organization as a whole; ouch! – warning them of possible illegalities and potential conSEQUENCES. This is a big no-no in pecking order law.

257. DXP - July 9, 2009

This is in response to HarryHindsight who thinks the blog is losing the thread of the legal response to the fof. I went back and re-read Daily Cardiac’s post # 89 and wrote some responses. He (she?) spends a lot of time trying to dismiss the letter and the blog, and I didn’t write anything about that since it is just so apparent that it is bad thinking. I know this comment is going to be really very long and I’m sorry. Snips of DC’s comment are first, then a comment from me follows.

……..

“While Abe is talking about defending Robert’s or the FoF’s rights to privacy, or attorney/client privileges it’s clear by your own statements that you don’t feel RB/FoF has any rights, period. You feel all rights of FoF and Robert Burton have been forfeited through his/their own actions. You feel this way because you have already served as their judge, jury and executioner.”

This is not true. Of course the fof has rights as a legal religious church. It does not have unlimited rights to privacy. Whistle blowers also have rights and have a function in providing limits on what a church can do. It has been established the Catholic church did not have the right to sexually harass and abuse members, and they have no right to cover that up. Covering up abuse is not a part of privacy. Also, the blanket “you” you use is incorrect and the bit about judge jury and executioner is….. silly, for want of a better word.

…….

“Whenever anyone is convinced their judgment is without error and also that their position on an issue is wholly correct they will feel empowered to play God. And the most heinous crimes ever inflicted on mankind have been inflicted by people who are willing to play God with the lives of others. Along with the right to play God comes the right to destroy, to eliminate. ”

Slight of hand logic. Anyone on this blog may say what happened to THEM, and many have. That shows honesty and courage. They are “wholly correct” that it is what they experienced. Whistle blowers are not “playing God”. Then you go on with your slight of hand to compare and thus equate whistle blowers with “heinous crimes inflicted on mankind”. It just does not follow, and actually whistle blowers have historically NOT been perpetrators of heinous crimes, quite the contrary.

……..

“Now, some former members who are reading this will think right about now that this is precisely what RB does with peoples lives, he plays God, and they have every right to think whatever they want. But they don’t have the right to take away his rights to due process just because they think he is doing injustice to them or someone else. At least they don’t have the right to do that and not become the very thing they claim to oppose”.

I don’t see anyone denying the fof its due process, its just that many would like to see that due process actually begin. Then another slight of logic saying the whistle blowers are “the very thing they claim to oppose”.

…….

“When an immature soul encounters abuse, or perceived abuse, it will respond in kind. The person will seek out their abuser for the purpose of retribution. The person will attempt to abuse the abuser if they feel the abuser has escaped justice, and if they cannot reach their abuser they will attempt to abuse some random abuser.”

This is bad logic and does not have precedence. Again, the Catholic whistle blowers did not “respond in kind” and justice is not the same thing as retribution. The Catholic church, because of them, was not “abused” and hopefully the sexual harassment and abuse perpetrated by the priests was stopped and the cover up of their abuses exposed and ended. That is justice, not retribution.

………

“This is a law for someone caught in the lower realms of human consciousness.”

How do you know this? You put great effort to sound logical in your language, but then you slip in nonsense like this.

…….

“They will experience compassion for the abuser. They will be more determined to not abuse others, including their own abuser. The last thing they wish is to hurt others as they have been hurt – and this very definitely includes other abusers. This is the only way the endless cycle of abuse is broken. The blog is rife with verbal abuse, aimed at anyone who indicates support or sympathy for the FoF / Robert Burton.”

Again, nonsense. All this “they” suppositions, its just fantasy. Justice is at the very core of compassion and to save others from sexual harassment and abuse is a very compassionate thing to do. To whistle blow and warn others is a very good way to curb and hopefully stop the serious sexual harassment and abuse. Whistle blowing and warning is in itself not abuse. You may not like it, but it is not abuse.

……..

“But you allow your strong feelings of distain and anger to supplant your reasoning. It’s fine if you feel Robert Burton is disqualified from being a legitimate spiritual teacher because he has sex with certain of his students.”

I don’t think anyone said that. I think what is objected to is sexual harassment and abuse. I think it is legitimate to question if a man is qualified to be a religious church leader if he commits harassment and abuse. I think many think Robert has crossed legal lines too.

…….

“I personally don’t think that disqualifies him. How do you deal with my preferences, my morality? Do you simply dismiss them? Do you think my reasoning is inferior to yours? Or do you allow the mystery of our differences to exist side by side?”

The “mystery of our differences”? At least you have a sense of humor. You are welcomed to your morality as long as it is legal. If it is abusive expect some push back.

……..

“I don’t think buying expensive, pastel suits and accessories disqualifies Robert Burton from being a conscious teacher. Can I express my right to believe that without feeling your wrath?”

Sure, go right ahead and express your beliefs. You cannot control other’s reactions to that tho. Robert’s horrible taste is not really what whistle blowers are objecting to however. If this was a blog about taste in clothes and accessories then you would be right.

……..

“I believe Robert Burton has every right to run the FoF exactly as he deems necessary and if that includes the school buying thousands of palm trees so be it.”

No one is saying anything about palm trees and equating the obnoxious use of palm trees with sexual harassment and abuse is incorrect.

258. Opus 111 - July 10, 2009

257 DXT

Arguing with DC has proven a waste of time, the guy/gal is something else.

Hopefully your thoughtful reply will help open someone else’s eyes.

259. ton - July 10, 2009

260. WhaleRider - July 10, 2009

“Narcissism is a tale of ((mutual)) codependency. The codependent person cares for a person who abuses some kind of drug. The codependent person has his or her arms wrapped around a person who has his arms wrapped around his drug, be it alcohol, cocaine, fame, power over people, money, ((sex)), etc.

From his defensive isolation, the narcissist demands that his codependent child ((cult follower)) get vicarious satisfaction from the parent’s ((cult leader’s)) pleasure in himself.

If the abuser is narcissistic, his arms are wrapped around his own image. For the narcissist there is only self. For the normal person there is self and other.

The child ((cult follower)) hears what is wrong with himself or the gap between he and his parent’s ((cult leader’s)) greatness.

In the parent’s ((cult leader’s)) philosophy, his child ((cult follower)) cannot say no.

Narcissist parents ((cult leaders)) say that we should be perfect, and that they are entitled to a form of worship. Such concepts paralyze us.

Self-development is difficult if the sense of self is undermined.

If we throw caution to the wind and do the best we can ((independent of the cult)), we find trying to live up to the narcissist image of being a perfect person to be a waste of time.

All this has to so with knowing our buried selves, so far out of range that sometimes we feel nonexistent at the core and strangely empty.

Can something unfelt exist? Are we centerless and different from other people ((without the cult))? Can a self grow out of emptiness?

Do you know what you need and what you have to offer, what you can an cannot do? We can at times feel hopelessly confused, wonderfully good, and horribly bad all at once since the parent ((cult leader)) put our ideal image on a pedestal and our ordinary self in a ditch.

Self is not the product of a propaganda machine. It has its own needs and identity. If never felt, self’s arrival can give a shocking jolt.

Psychotherapy can be very helpful, but what we call therapy can come from ordinary people who see, hear, and feel us. It comes from friends, and relatives, from fortunate encounters with strangers. We think that our families’ ((cult’s)) ways are the only ways and then we meet people with entirely different values.

When we are afraid of doing something lest we fail, we meet someone who loves the doing and shares it. To have such an experience we must take the risk of doing or at least of being around a doer.

A sense of self develops from interaction with people and from deeds that set you on the road. A person trips over his feet and laughs to discover the error of his ways.

~”Trapped in the Mirror”, 1992, by Elan Golomb, PhD

261. X-ray - July 10, 2009

250. harryhindsight – July 9, 2009

‘DMX,

Not exactly sure why, but when I read your last post, I get that funny feeling you’re a shill!

Distracting us from the David Springfield letter are we?

Harry.’

Good point Harry.
David Springfield’s letter clearly speaks of criminal activity of Fellowship of Friends, in comparison to which, Robert Burton’s sex games looks like baby toys.

262. nigel harris price - July 10, 2009

261 X-ray

…..to follow on from your last paragraph…..

There is a programme on TV at the moment about how gays express themselves, the gay movement in particular and they are interviewing stars of gay TV shows, fashion writers etc. etc. Although I was told that REB was homosexual (but, as many were, misled into believing that he was leading a celibate life, for several years) it was more important to me to verify (I know some of you hate that word) that I was connected to C-influence (and I also know that some hate that phrase) so there was the separation, if you like, that led to my deciding that, since I was paying by money and efforts, Burton owed me something, and I would use dinners as a chance to ‘probe’ him for what he knew. That seemed to work when I was living in the London Centre but, as I was very involved with the Saunders ‘disclosure’ and knew many of the members of the FOF who left at that time, it started ‘dawning on me’ that Burton was relying on others to come up with what had previously appeared as his unique quotes. It is this disgust, due to the revelations, of discovering Burton’s ‘dark side’ and his predatory nature with regard to young men that has led me to continue with this blog, both in regard to wishing REB be brought to justice, and in providing ‘support and nourishment’ for those sincerely wanting to live a life, recovering and disentangling themselves from the Followship of Frauds…..Nigel.

263. nigel harris price - July 10, 2009

As I was just going through my Word files, I came across this copy of a letter I sent to my Artistic Mentor in Pacifica some months ago…..

Dear George
I believe you are, perhaps, the most discreet person I have come across.
Should you have received mail from authorities regarding my contacting
them about the ‘cult shambles’, I sincerely believe you would have told me.
But you went on, in your email, to support your and my artistic connections
and that was your beautiful curve-ball! (“See if you can hit my curve” -‘Field of Dreams’).

To ‘lay my cards on the table’, I take part in a blogsite called ‘The Fellowship of Friends Discussion’, set up by ex-members of ‘the cult’. Our aim is to ‘drain the victim pool’ and to pave the way for halting the evil that is perpetrated by Robert Earl Burton (the leader, ‘guru’ and my personal ‘Kurgon’ [see the film ‘Highlander’ with Christopher Lambert and Sean Connery]). You once said that “to look back is to become a pillar of salt” – that is Biblical – however Vedantic Scripture states that one has to return to ‘confront one’s daemons’. As you know, I was given an excellent and broad English education, a superb training in my craft, THE POPE GLORY (a critical point in my life and a ‘weapon in this fight’), and the chance of ‘gathering together the whole shebang’, by training to, and
becoming what I am now – a Teacher of Adults in Metal Craft, and an owner of a successfully growing and, supported hugely by my family, small business. And with a mother by the name of Wallace (Scotland’s greatest freedom fighter!), dare I turn my back on all the noble virtues she taught me (courage, honesty and LOVE ‘for all sentient beings’ (Gautama, the Buddha) and not stand up for the noblest cause in the Universe – FREEDOM (“Maybe that is what freedom means – to fulfil your purpose” – ‘I, robot’, starring Will Smith)?

With gentle love to you and the hope that you may, in patience, allow me to see through this struggle for the sake of, maybe, a slogan displayed at the Monaco Grand Prix – ‘PEACE AND SPORT’…..Nigel.

264. nigel harris price - July 10, 2009

Perhaps a little passage on NPD and the way out…..Nigel.

FRONDES AGRESTES by Ruskin
Section 1/4.
Had it been ordained by the Almighty that the highest pleasures of sight should be those of most difficult attainment, and that to arrive at them it should be necessary to accumulate GILDED PALACES, tower over tower, and pile ARTIFICIAL MOUNTAINS AROUND INSINUATED LAKES, there would never have been a direct contradiction between the unselfish duties and the inherent desires of every individual. But no such contradiction exists in the system of Divine Providence; which, leaving it open to us, if we will, as creatures in probation, TO ABUSE THIS SENSE LIKE ANY OTHER, and pamper it with SELFISH AND THOUGHTLESS VANITIES, as we pamper the palate with deadly meats, until THE APPETITE OF TASTEFUL CRUELTY is lost in its sickened satiety, incapable of pleasures unless, CALIGULA LIKE, it concentrates the labour of a million lives into the sensation of an hour, – leaves it open to us, BY HUMBLE AND LOVING WAYS, to make ourselves susceptible of deep delight, WHICH SHALL NOT SEPARATE US FROM OUR FELLOWS, nor require the sacrifice of ANY DUTY OR OCCUPATION, but shall bind us closer to men and to God, and be with us always, HARMONISED WITH EVERY ACTION, CONSISTENT WITH EVERY CLAIM, UNCHANGING AND ETERNAL.

265. nigel harris price - July 10, 2009

I have posted this passage before, but, little thought for the coming year…..

“Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to everyone that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men, go freely with powerful uneducated persons and with the young and the mothers of families, read these leaves in the open air every season of every year of your life, re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be a great poem and have the richest fluency not only in its words but in the silent lines of its lips and face and between the lashes of your eyes and in every motion and joint of your body…..”

Walt Whitman – Prologue to ‘Leaves of Grass’.

266. in2it - July 10, 2009

265. Beautiful.

By the way, does anyone know the scoop on Walt Whitman?

Was he kicked out of the FOF or did he leave on his own? Did he just stop making payments? Did he say “no” to Burton? Did he refuse to contribute his cash at one of the auctions? Or did he stop going to meetings? Was it because he continued many of his friendships with ex-followers? (because he’s obviously still very close to Nigel and many others.)

Or did Burton read the above words and realize that Whitman is a bad influence?

You’d think by now that Burton would realize that Walt is partly responsible for thousands — literally thousands — moving on to brighter and healthier endeavours.

Thanks for sharing that excerpt, Nigel.

267. nigel harris price - July 10, 2009

266 in2it

I believe you mean beautiful, not as in Meissen serving plates or gold-and-enamel-diamond-encrusted-tuxedo-sets, but as something to nourish a TRULY ASPIRING HUMAN SOUL and TO IMPEL RIGHT ATTITUDE AND ACTION…..Nigel.

(P.S. Perhaps I count as little the $30,000+ I ‘wasted’ on the FOF all those years in return for being ‘introduced’ to Walt Whitman and his works)…..

(P.P.S. However, being still ‘mestatized at the fingertips, as Eric Nightingale commented about my condition, the suicide attempt being not only an overdose of allergy pills, but lacerating my wrists, there is the reminder of how the FOF ‘fleeced’ me and how C-influence wishes me to ‘return to confront my daemons’, [see post #263] as I ‘set-the-preliminaries’ in this blogsite).

268. in2it - July 11, 2009

Many good things come from balance:

-Seeing the need for and the wonder in friendship, but also finding strength within that’s dependent on no one and nothing outside ourselves.
-Seeking love in our connection with others, but also realizing that love is a state of being within us.
-Seeing the beauty in the time we spent in the FOF, but also acknowledging the malignancies — and pointing them out.
-Knowing something profoundly, but knowing it with a sense of awe and mystery.
-Appreciating relaxation, silence, and rest, but also recognizing when vocalism and action and dissent are welcomed by the universe, and finding the answer to that question in our conscience — however difficult that is to define or describe.

Anyway, my two cents on pleasant Friday evening. Best wishes, Nigel.

269. nigel harris price - July 11, 2009

268 in2it

“-Appreciating relaxation, silence, and rest, but also recognizing when vocalism and action and dissent are welcomed by the universe, and finding the answer to that question in our conscience — however difficult that is to define or describe.”

I would like to cherish that one, by filing it in my ‘My Documents’, if I may…..Nigel.

270. nigel harris price - July 11, 2009

268 in2it

I did not only file your ‘little gem’…..I used it for the following letter…..

11 July 2009

Chris Porteus
Crisis Resolution Team
The Cedars
Dryden Road
EXETER
Devon

“-Appreciating relaxation, silence, and rest, but also recognizing when vocalism and action and dissent are welcomed by the universe, and finding the answer to that question in our conscience — however difficult that is to define or describe.” (post from a blog-friend in California)

Dear Mr Porteus

I am writing this letter, prompted by the visit of Dr Tanya Nelson, the head of your department in the NHS Partnership. When I explained to her the ‘battle’ I had with (I have to stress) the male members of your team, which led to my having to be arrested by the police under Section 136 over a month ago, she apologised to me about the lack of coordination that they (the male members) displayed.

Perhaps I have to explain why it has taken so long to come to the point where I am able to write this letter. Someone with bi-polar affective disorder does not come out, automatically, from an ordeal such as I experienced through being hospitalized, in a stable state. In my case, I came out ‘low’ and seemed, for several weeks, to only feel self-blame and regret. Now, as I have achieved what I can only describe as ‘a little quivering above level’ state, the reasons behind how I acted and my attitude towards people during the unstable time are returning with regard to the following comment from someone (I know not who) once uttered to me:-

“It is the state of mankind that, very rarely, do we learn from the past.”

Some very lucky people (or maybe not lucky, but it may just be ‘the way they are’) are able to go through life, staying pretty much in the way they gained adulthood. The majority of us either progress, through applying ‘critical analysis and reflective practice’ (terms I garnered from my teacher training) and acting upon what we have, therefore, learnt or we deny the need to do this and slip backwards, as we approach death, into what Shakespeare described, in the ‘Seven Ages of Man’ speech:-

“Second childhood and mere oblivion.”

May I remind you, unless it has been conveniently overlooked, that I began contacting the Crisis Resolution team on the Thursday before the Monday of my arrest and sectioning and was maintaining said contact as I went through a positive, although perhaps financially draining Friday and Saturday. I was able to describe to the (thankfully, female) members of the team, who were answering the telephone at the time, what I was doing, and remember that I did not spend an inordinate amount of money on my activities and actually managed to go without alcohol from the Thursday onward, as I had promised those members of the team. I have learnt, from my numerous encounters with hypo-mania, that when it occurs, women become interested and helpful towards me and most men become confused and aggressive. I would say this is not just the members of the general public (although I have to say that the male proprietors of the Bishop Blaize Public House were helpful, as were Nicky, the landlady, and my new friend, Kate, who actually tried to help by getting an appointment with Dr Adrian Midgley on the Monday – which appointment did not materialise). I, myself, made a 999 ambulance call and was given the ‘not liable to be a danger to myself or others’ O.K. (I have the ‘chitty’ to confirm this) and was only arrested by the police, as the final resort, since I had no food or money or bus-pass to get to work (I would probably have been of little use to my students on the Monday, since I was so exasperated by the situation).

May I say, I have found you to be one of the most heavy-handed members of the Team, whenever you have had to deal with me, and have learnt to tell from your vocal intonations, when you want to ‘throw the book at me’ and get me sectioned. Alan and Pete Conridge are fine for ‘can we come and have a chat with you, Nigel?’ but, when action is necessary and a patient has seen the way to implement such action, going by more successful past experiences, the last thing that is useful is meeting followed by meeting.

For me, and the reason for this, perhaps, terse letter is that I have found expressing myself through the medium of the written word far better than imploding into a depressive and self-derogatorising state and having to rely on the further support of the (actually) helpful members of the mental health authorities. I have very supportive friends in the community and, after this ‘messy’ admission, which was quickly ‘sewn up’ by the fact that I was allowed to go to work at my studio, as a craft-metal teacher, I am far less likely to approach some of the members of the Crisis Resolution Team…..or is it the Mental Health DeRAILment Group (depending on which acronym is currently in use?).

Yours truly,

Nigel Harris Price BA Hons, Cert Ed, MIfL.

cc
Dr Tanya Nelson, Consultant Psychiatrist, Crisis Resolution Team
Robin Howell, CPN
Dr Adrian Midgley, ISCA Medical Practice
The Editor, Express and Echo Newspaper, Exeter

271. Jomo Piñata - July 11, 2009

Seven Million People Determined to be Direct Descendants Of Single Smooth-Talking Ancestor

http://bit.ly/1epoJ

272. James Mclemore - July 11, 2009

271. Jomo Piñata

Well, I can whistle pretty darn well, but I think the occasional long bouts of involuntary celibacy probably indicate I am not one of the heirs of those genes.

273. Mikey - July 12, 2009

It can’t be true: Nobody gets more arse than a chamber pot.

Dateline Oregon House, California, USA: In a stunning upset Bobby Burton defeated chamber pot in the semi-finals & retained his god-like status.

His only remaining rival, God Himself, commented:
“As soon as the old man dies, his ass is mine.”

274. DXP - July 12, 2009

” The Pope comes to America. Of course, he’s very busy. Masses, rallies, dinners, events, etc. For security, he has the same limo driver daily.

One evening at a banquet, he sees a chance to sneak away unnoticed. He goes out back, finds his limo, knocks on the window and finds the driver lounging in the rear seat eating a huge sandwich with his feet up on the seat.

Driver: Your holiness! I’m so sorry. Where can I take you? Forgive me!

Pope: Sit, eat, my son. Truthfully, I’d like to take the car for a drive. I’m the Pope, and everything is done for me. I’ve never driven an automobile. Please allow me.

Driver: certainly, your holiness. Let me assist.

Pope: Sit, my son. Finish your dinner.

The Pope begins to drive. Naturally, he is not very good at it as he has never done this before. After hitting several parked cars, lamp posts, and stop signs, He is pulled over by a state trooper.

The police man gets out of his cruiser, approaches the driver’s window and knocks. The Pope lowers the window, Trooper eyes the scene and retreats to his cruiser. Immediately, he grabs his cell phone and phones the governor.

Trooper: Governor, this is state trooper Wilson. I’ve just pulled over the most important person in the world for a serious traffic violation but I don’t know what to do.

Gov: Who do your have there? Obama? I will speak to the White House Chief of Staff. I’ll straighten this out.

Trooper: No, it’s not Obama. It’s the most important person in the world!

Gov: Well, who do you have? The UN Secretary General? I will speak to one of those UN guys. Diplomatic immunity is a very sacred thing you know.

Trooper: No, no. I’ve already told you. Its the most important person in the world.

Gov: Dammit, Wilson, who the hell did you pull over?

Trooper: I have no idea, but he’s sittin’ in the back seat of a limo, eating a sandwich and the Pope is his driver!”

275. elena - July 12, 2009

It’s winter but the sun has been smiling generously all day. It did rain yesterday and a little everyday the days before but there’s been enough Sun to go for a swim, play with the board and work. It gets more wintery during the months of September through November then it’s summer through April.

It’s winter and the night sky roars with bright powerful thunder as if it wanted to tell something to the trees and the mountains and something ever so serious to the people but then the next day the sun shines with the same blonde brightness of the Northern people.

It feels as if I’d already been a year away and the distance in time mattered not because of the time but because the pace of the donkeys in the impossibly slippery paths in the morning made real time fade like soap in the perfectly normal dry paths at the end of the day.

Fourteen little chics follow a proud brown mother around the patio like perfect satellites around a star, the young donkey walks amongst them as if it too wanted to be part of the crew without ever explaining how exactly he manages not to step on them while his mother comes back from an errand in town.

The constant cool breeze hits gently all day except before it rains. There is no one in the whole stretch of the long beach and I continue to move paths up and down the small property that my second husband gave me putting up small cottages for people I expect will never come. Others will come but all who come will be equally welcome and equally challenged by the virginity of the Nature, the People and the Sea.

I dream with a biodynamic farm with cottages for visitors but it is hardly big enough for a farm even if ten five star hotels could fit in it. My ignorance in farming makes the dream greater even if William, whose name is exactly William as if in English, has over five thousand plantains already giving and knows the land as someone whose never worn shoes. The workers come at six with their beautifully carved bodies as if in one piece of coordinated muscle and move the machete from side to side like butterflies. Even the seven-year-old boy already moves with it like one. He is so small that I could barely see him over the grass until he strode over it like the smallest butterfly. The children like to come with the men and work as hard as them for a short while. In their own pieces they work long.

It’s good to be here. Thought I’d say hello and thank all. Harryhindsight for the clarity of your post to Abe, those who answered Daily Cardiac and all for the tone and the energy to keep things moving. Maybe when I get back I’ll think about Abe and Daily Cardiac again but such men can’t fit here.

What ever it is that is between us, I carry you all with great warmth. Wish you were here and we could get to know each other in a more gentle surrounding! Best of luck for now!

276. nigel harris price - July 12, 2009

The Gospel according to John
Chapter 1, verse 1-5.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehendeth it not.”

277. nigel harris price - July 12, 2009

Another letter I wrote today (Sunday)…..

12 July 2009

Jimmy “Attitude” Laird
c/o Windsor Castle Public House
North Street
HEAVITREE
Exeter
EX1

Dear Jimmy

Before I state my reasons for sending this letter, let me say that there is a clock in the ‘Windsor’ named after you – CONSTANT – yes, dear, constant Jimmy, one, eternal, unchanging – it reminds me of the lines from John Bunyan:-

“Who would true valour see,
Let him come hither;
One here will constant be,
Come wind come weather.”

Jimmy, you and I have had ‘verbal scraps’ but come to appreciate each other as TRUE men – the major ‘scrap’ was about what soldiery was all for – you said “Learn the disciplines, then fall to sleep” and I insisted “No! Eternal vigilance!”. It cannot be any other way for me – I have double-warrior-nobility blood and cannot, at this juncture, fall down on this calling – too many things are wrong in our city, our country, our world.

This leads to a statement – I feel I have to extricate myself from the Windsor Castle Pub, since I find many things wrong there – men who have not paid their debts to friends and drinking themselves silly, some men not appreciating their loving wives, Iain drinking himself stupid and having those adorable ladies run the pub in the mornings, only getting up to open the till, then going back to bed to cure his hangover, Alex running the bar from his computer game and Ben running the bar from the fruit-machine…..I could go on, but you get the point.

If I could stay this way for ever, I would wish to be “an officer and a gentleman” and I cannot do it, whilst frequenting the ‘Windsor’. I am not ‘one of the lads’ and I do not ‘run with the crowd’, as you very well know. Jimmy, you are one of my teachers, and, through my mild and wild phases, my admissions to hospital and recovery, you are my ‘holder of the thin red line’. From now on in, it is principles with me, and God bless you, Jimmy.

Nigel.

278. nigel harris price - July 12, 2009

in2it ‘intuited’ that Whitman was working with me. Let Whitman say how…..

excerpts from “Song of the Answerer”…..

“Him all wait for, him all yield up to, his word is decisive and final,
Him they accept, in him lave, in him percieve themselves as amid light,
Him they immerse and he immerses them.”

“He puts things in their attitudes,
He puts to-day out of himself with plasticity and love,
He places hiw own times, reminiscences, parents, brothers and sisters, associations, employment, politics, so that the rest never shame them afterward, nor assume to command.

He is the Answerer,
What can be answer’d he answers, and what cannot be answer’d he shows how it cannot be answer’d.

A man is a summons and challenge,
(It is vain to skulk – do you hear that mocking and laughter?
do you hear the ironical echoes?)”

279. nigel harris price - July 12, 2009

Although I believe it is Shakespeare who is the other ‘conscious being’ working with me, and so, it is 42itous (2 of the 44 who influence) that I should also find, in the Bible, the ‘virtues of my command’…..

Isiah 42 vvs 1-14

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.

He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

A bruised reed he shall not break, and the smoking flax he shall not quench; he shall bring forth judgement unto truth.

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgement in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein.

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and will give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another; neither any praise to graven images.

Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth; ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants therein.

Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice; the villages that Kedar doth inhabit; let the inhabitants of the rock sing; let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare his praise in the islands.

The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war; he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself; now I will cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.”

280. nigel harris price - July 12, 2009

excerpt from ‘Rudolph Steiner’…..

“Let us consider for a moment a few general aspects of life, bearing in mind the title of this chapter.

In early infancy the child is entirely dependent on its surroundings and is naturally influenced by them. As it grows, what and how it learns form a foundation for its understanding and attitudes as a grown-up. The interest awakened in the child, the moral and religious background, will all influence the character of the adult. Skills, intellectual awareness, sociability, these are influenced by early training.

In day-to-day existence we do not start new projects every day but continue where we left off the day before. In the course of life different faculties develop and understanding matures. It is obvious that today’s capabilities and capacities are dependent on yesterday’s efforts and experiences, today’s comprehension on yesterday’s lessons. We may have forgotten the reading lesson but we have acquired the ability to read. We may have suffered some setback but it gives us an ability to sympathise with others. We may have exerted ourselves to learn a language; now we can understand and speak it.

Our daily life also brings us into contact with other people. There is our immediate family. We move in certain circles; we have co-workers; we may belong to a certain club, society or church. We realize that the world is peopled by all sorts and conditions of men. We meet new people and make new friends. We help others and are helped in turn. We also make acquaintance with unpleasant characters who radiate negative forces.

We ourselves have certain characteristics. We may be kind, selfish, generous. We may be influenced by evil, succumb to temptation, be strong or weak-willed, independent or easily overruled. We may love and be loved; we may dislike our fellow humans and prefer isolation. Most of us have definite ideas, a particular way of thinking and a certain outlook on life. Some are very interested in what goes on around them, others less so.

Furthermore, in some way or other we are active in the world. We do something and our deeds have consequences. We do a kindness or the opposite; we do something creative or destructive. Everything has an effect. It is a sobering thought that in some measure, whatever we do, we leave our mark on the world. We might go so far as to say that everything we do, positive or negative, has an effect on the whole course of human evolution and should be judged in this light.”

281. sallymcnally - July 12, 2009
282. WhaleRider - July 13, 2009

nigel:
“in2it ‘intuited’ that Whitman was working with me…I believe it is Shakespeare who is the other ‘conscious being’ working with me…”

Might I ask, Nigel, for the sake of clarity and consciousness…is it not really you who is working with them?

Can you hear a difference in how that sounds?

283. Yesri Baba - July 13, 2009

I got a unicorn, two leprechauns and a troll working with me… or am I working with them?

284. nigel harris price - July 13, 2009

282 whalerider/283 Yesri Baba

…..to use a commonly bandied around phrase…..

WUDDEVER?!?!?

(However, I have ‘taken in’ what you both had to say in your posts and, perhaps, it may be said, that “Work does not end when one departs from the Fellowship – in fact, for many of us, real work has begun”…..Nigel.)

285. James Mclemore - July 14, 2009

283. Yesri Baba

Sorry to hear about the troll. That has got to be tough.

286. sallymcnally - July 14, 2009

Human reaction can be hell. Or it can be a great spiritual practice. ‘Stillness Speaks’ by Eckhart Tolle.

287. fofblogmoderator - July 14, 2009

Feels like it’s time for a New Page


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