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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 70 April 7, 2009

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.

Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/



1. James Mclemore - April 7, 2009

Cannot remember exactly where I found this not long ago. It may have come from “Alchemically Braindamaged”

The terror of error
The error of terror
The terror of seeing
The error of being

2. Kid Shelleen - April 7, 2009

Haven’t posted this in quite a few pages, but in light of some recent posts, it seems fitting:

“The answer is never the answer. What’s really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you’ll always be seeking. I’ve never seen anybody really find the answer — they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.”

–Ken Kesey

Oh, and thanks for the Mississippi John Hurt video.

3. elena - April 7, 2009

One from the Bench:

I don’t address you much because I don’t believe your story of a Jason stuck somewhere after years of leaving the Fellowship and your capacity to inspire others here is beyond my comprehension. The way you’ve handled things since you began writing is not coherent with the pictures you present. You’re too identified with the Fellowship and if you were truly that identified you’d be inside and not outside. But if you’re a fellowshipper trying to defend it on the only thing that it has left to defend itself: blind devotion to influence C (without taking anything else into account, including the rubbish that you present post after post, saying nothing but distracting from the value of deeper concerns on the Fellowship), it makes perfect sense.

Since I believe you are the latter and therefore simply dishonest like many others who’ve come here from the Fellowship, you’re hardly worth addressing. The other possibility is that you’re actually what you say you are and if you are that, it is even less promising because we would have a perfect example of the kind of mentality that supports and defends cults like the Fellowship of Friends in and outside the U.S.: people whose fanatic outlook on religion does not allow them to consider the facts of life. You’re no different from those who rape on the name of religion only that you present your self like an inconsistent bum in which your only consistency is your fanatism, that is, your unwillingness to consider any other fact but your “belief” which makes the dialogue so incredibly boring. Like a little boy stuck with the toy mummy can’t buy him.

You are fanatically, frantically and fantastically fantasizing trying to stand up for Robert Burton with your presentation of higher forces. Not even the pope misuses the idea of God as corruptly as Robert Burton does. There are no higher forces working in the Fellowship Cult: it is not rooted in heaven but in hell. If anyone ever experienced a different state in the Fellowship, it wasn’t because Burton ever connected to anything high but he certainly connects with all kinds of evil, willing to rape and take advantage of everyone and everything. Your identification with him and the Fellowship is only that: a huge piece of IDENTIFICATION worthy of those who still manipulate others with fear of the Gods or the beyond just like Robert does in each meeting, if anyone still inside would seriously listen to it. Watch for the subtle manipulations that are exactly like these guy’s and you’ll find them without a doubt. He is a master at it, slowly turning the meeting from the Gods to the lower self, king of clubs within each of you who need him to save your soul from such evil. No difference with Christian poverty.

The problem is not whether you believe in God but in how you actualize the spiritual in your life. There are great saints who never had a need of a God to justify their existence! In the Fellowship what you actualize issexual, physical and economical, emotional and intellectual rape. If you think there’s a God Master behind such rape what inspires you is something very different to a God. Since you’re so adamant in talking about Gods, surely you believe there are devils and evil forces in the universe too. In your incredible uncommon sense, would the devil be the one that inspires people to stop raping each other then? Only the brainwashed MIND of cult members can equate such things and pretend to get away with it even if getting away with it means committing suicide in the end. A “life” like that, is a lot more tragic than people are willing to admit.

In other cults, they had to make up the story that they were being picked up by extraterrestrials to justify the suicide, what do you think the Fellowship will try to make up?

4. elena - April 7, 2009

Perhaps they’ll just have to keep going shopping for gucci clothes so that they continue to believe they’re already in heaven!

5. elena - April 7, 2009

adamant was probably the wrong word, it means the opposite of what I was trying to say… I think..

6. elena - April 7, 2009

“You Wear Me Out: The Vicarious Depletion of Self-Control”
Interesting text Jomo Piñata. It’s a small example to make such a generalization and the issue of Self-Control seems relevant enough to watch out for the misunderstandings.

At some point in every family’s life a parent is met with the need to teach the child where his or her freedom stops and I found that it stopped where other’s integrity begins. The subject of self-control makes sense in the context of the “whole”. It is not that the individual stops himself from an action disaffirming himself, it is that he affirms the whole by stopping himself from acting against it. When the individual is not identified with his subjectivity but is able to stand on his wholesomeness, he affirms himself in controlling his subjectivity. Only if the individual is unable to perceive the integrity of his actions in relation to the world, can he act against the world and himself: there is no separation: the subjective act is as subjective towards the individual as it is towards the whole and equally depletes both.

The abuse on nature and each other in our times, reveals that unconsciousness but in every act in which a person abuses something or somebody else’s integrity, the subjectivity is exposed; the lack of self-control. The problem is that people are supposed to respect and control themselves in relation to institutions and authorities that are acting against them justified by some abstract ideal. People are supposed to behave objectively in relation to subjective authorities and institutions. It is the people in power who are acting subjectively in relation to the whole and demand objective behaviour from those who they submit. The status quo of our times is that of the “separate individual”: the guru, the boss, the dictator, the teacher, the “Stars” in Sports and Art, Politics and Economy, the OWNERS OF POWER and power is used to justify the inequality in space and time: the inequality of “being” (which makes it very interesting that it is now the “guru” the one who holds the interest of the masses that fall for cults. Before it was for the king, then the dictator). The economic power, the political power, the religious power.

While the authority in the father took the aspect of unquestioned reverence, the boss or owner of the business takes the economic profit from the worker; the teacher in a University, takes the intellectual credit; the guru, the divinity and the dictator, the power, the ruling faculty. They all stand above the masses of people over which they have control. They all affirm the superiority of status in the human or inhuman relation they establish with their subjects. If they are “more human” they treat them decently but seldom make friends with them, in fact it is not well looked at to make friends with the people you exploit, teach or rule! If you made friends with them you couldn’t stand in a position of authority above them and abuse them. Most relationships today do not include the friendship, they are agreements of position.

The owner of the industry has become so rich that he no longer has to meet the workers, and spends his life spending the lives he spent. The Teachers in Schools and Universities don’t need to establish a relation with their students. They give a conference in which only they talk and disappear. If they are truly good they are so human that the class is an interchange of humanity in itself but those exceptions become the rule for all others who, no matter how inhuman, impose themselves on their students hour after hour and if the student questions them he loses the right to be in the school. What most teachers abuse is the silence with which their students have to listen: they do not live on the subject they teach but on the energy they take from submitting their students to silence. The energy of their submission. They do not “share” the subject, they “impose” it. They do not help the student learn and help him correct steps on the way, they dominate the student so that the teacher can remain the owner of the knowledge, the owner of the “authority”, the owner of “speech”, the owner of the right to participate, the owner of the “freedom to be” because in the long run, it is the one who has access to expression the one who can “RE-CREATE” himself and develop. Teachers like that, re-create and develop intellectual dictatorship and re-enforce the submission that repeats itself in other phases of people’s lives.

Parents have also lived on that blind imposition of authority, especially in families in which mother and children are supposed to be the father’s subjects. Dictators and gurus, reproduce the same patterns on the scale of the cult or the nation. It is all about power and submission. No matter how “depressed” people in all spheres of life might be, every one is doing what they learnt to do: submit others or be submitted by others. The irrationality of that submission reflects itself in the irrationality with which the world is being depleted. The subject no longer matters, the well being of the people is irrelevant and the destruction of natural resources is rampant. “Life” is spilling from our fingers while we indulge in submitting each other!

All this needs to be refined and explored further.

7. X-ray - April 7, 2009

3. elena – April 7, 2009

Well put Elena.
The ‘one from the fence’ either need a medical attention, or no attention at all.

8. dragon - April 7, 2009

“Soul of the Age” a biography by Jonathan Bate:

So what was Shakespeare like? Canny, sceptical, sympathetic: might Enobarbus, the humorously detached and yet emotionally entangled friend of Cleopatra’s Antony come closest to him, Mr Bate wonders?

A constant theme is Shakespeare’s resistance to definition.

He offered “questions and debates, not propaganda and positions”.

Just as he has been appropriated, so he appropriated ideas from everyone else.
On balance, Mr Bate suggests, the humane realism of Epicurus, an ancient Greek philosopher, whose pliableness and variety of mind Shakespeare would have encountered indirectly through the essays of Montaigne, is a good place to start.

“One from the fence” read that book and try to imagine if Shakespeare could have been “NO ANGEL” but a very FREE and CREATIVE personality……… far away from being monopolized by the FOF!!

9. dragon - April 7, 2009

It could be a help for “fence”:

An Easter retreat on the islets of Langerhans!

10. elena - April 7, 2009

With parents the emotional centre is submitted, with teachers and their institutions, the intellectual centre is controlled, with the military, people are submitted physically. What is so surprising about people giving them selves up to a guru until they commit suicide out of their own free will? Nothing makes a person commit suicide or mass murder as easily as feeling complete impotence towards life, the unmovable, imaginary, untouchable status quo that rules everyone’s life but has no face. It has faces, it is incarnated by people and attitudes within each one of us and it can change. When you are for ever submitted what could stop you from sacrificing your self?

You exist, you are a human being, you don’t owe anyone submission. We need to help each other out of this mess! Life is our birthright. Earth is our home. The right to work for our well being is our destiny. We can stop disconnecting our selves from our reality. We can demand integrity for people’s lives from our selves and others. We can stop each other when we become abusive. We can submit to love, to dignity. Nothing else is worth submission.

We can put the law under our hands, we can act if those in power use the law to allow for abuse. We can protest the laws if they make people’s lives miserable. We can die a dignified death if we can’t live a dignified life. We wouldn’t be the first or the last to live for life.

11. nigel harris price - April 7, 2009

I wrote a post to fofblogmoderator but, luckily, it was cancelled – too many swear words, I think – about One from the Fence. I really think One from the Fence is receiving more attention than he/she deserves!!!!!…..Nigel.

12. One from the fence - April 8, 2009

3. Elena, I have no idea where you are coming from. Especially, where did you get the idea from any of my writings that I am in any way defending anyone. You have sleepily misread me.

13. elena - April 8, 2009

Oh no from the bench, I “copy” you much better than you realize. Just take a deep look. Influence C. doesn’t need defending. It’s Robert what you want to justify. Your ridiculously infantile tone might confuse Fellowshippers but some of us out here don’t buy your act no matter how cheaply you are trying to sell it. Why don’t you just try to address the facts and step down from the clouds for a little while? It won’t do you any harm, I can assure you! There’s no better place to be in than with your feet on the ground!

14. Another Name - April 8, 2009

“The answer is never the answer. What’s really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you’ll always be seeking. I’ve never seen anybody really find the answer — they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.”

Thanks Kid, beautiful and worth repeating….and this apraoch is so humbling, as it does not make you an expert who can take up a lot of space in convincing others of what you”know”.


15. Panorea - April 8, 2009

Just to re-post this one and welcome No Fence…

297. No Fence – April 7, 2009

Fence person: “What greatly confuses me is how any here could be atheistic even after rejecting something that represented God to them for a time. Is there a general “disbelief” amongst bloggers here? I truly feel that once a person has rejected the possibility of God, or of a greater, unifying intelligence in their lives, they do have little to nothing left to live for, for what do they have? Mind.”

For many, religion and cults become nothing more than a “bet” you place in Las Vegas or Reno. In other words, in the event that God and the afterlife exist, I’m going to place my bet there. If they don’t exist, then I’m still going to place my bet there. So I win if God exists. And if he doesn’t exist, it doesn’t matter. So life is reduced to a simple gamble — i.e., what people believe is a “safe bet.”

But I doubt that gets us there, wherever “there” might be.

To answer your question (I can’t speak for others), I’m not an atheist, but sometimes I feel that atheists and agnostics are closer to God or angels, if God or angels exist. Why? Because I sense that nothing brings you further from understanding and truth than pretending you know something you don’t know.

Not to mention all of the atrocities, brutality, and abuse that grow out of that sense of certainty that you have it all figured out, and that they don’t.

If these topics are addressed with a sense of mystery, I’m much more interested in hearing what someone has to say about them. When someone expresses certainty, it may be time to walk away, or perhaps run in some cases.

Does the FOF express any doubt? Any doubt at all?

No, because that works against the Primary Agenda. It would force people to be thoughtful and to think for themselves, which ultimately would lead to many people leaving, and questioning just why it is they’re supporting this person’s obviously bizarre and abusive behaviour.

16. Panorea - April 8, 2009

Does the FOF express any doubt? Any doubt at all?

Of course not. And if you express any doubt, you are out.

Which is the beginning of re-connecting with your real self…

The blog turned 70! Burton turns 70 somewhere in May, doesn’t he? Wonder what kind of celebration they will put together.

I saw a message regarding the purchase of another work of “art” in the Fellowship. A Buddha statue. And then in the same email two photographs…The angle the head of the statue was photographed was the same as Burton’s head. Do you still have that “Self-Remembering” book. That photograph of Burton; his head tilted and next to it Buddha’s head….Identical and an interesting thing to notice….says the composer of the email…

Doubts about the similarity? Burton is Buddha and Jesus and all saints and religions and the universe with all its black holes…Burton is everything… Any doubts?

My little daughter described the notion “teaching house” and “that place in America”… That place where people dress well and go to meetings and we have to wait for them to finish and some are nice but I do not really like them…Except that girl with the long dark hair. She used to smile to me…But they all look toooooo serious and a bit unhappy….and they seem to hide something…

The wisdom of a child…versus Burtonian universe…

I am so relieved I do not “have to” be part of Burton’s show any more….

17. Yesri Baba - April 8, 2009

“it is really NOT possible to share mystic experiences with others.
Guess why? ”


(Yesri in the back of the class excidedly waving a raised hand):

“I know, I know- Pick me, Pick me!”

(No one picks poor Yesri but out blurts…):

“Because a mystical experience is an experience of YOU and since there is only YOU, you could not possibly share it because it would only be with you and you are already experiencing you.”

“You experienced you and tried to share you and called you Allah, God, Christ, Brahman, Higher centers, Buddha mind, Atman, Tao, Presence, Absolute, Supreme, Alice, etc., etc., etc.” but you only confused deluded you into thinking that you were ‘something else’.”

(Geeee Wizz, how come nobody calls on poor Yesri?)

18. Crouching Tiger - April 8, 2009

Fence One.

There have been a lot of good posts now in response to your question(s). No doubt you can see for yourself that there is on the Blog a deep resistance, not to higher forces themselves, but certainly to their ‘knowability’…. to any kind of assumption whatsoever, that you can put yourself in contact with them by an act of sheer will, or by a method, or by a sequence. It is impossible.

KS’s post about the mystery and the answer probably summarised it best. Just keep standing in front of the question/mystery, and the ‘answer’ will come in a way you never suspected. Then it will dissolve again.

19. Ellen - April 8, 2009

You there, with both hands and feet in the air?
How do you do that?
Is that a yoga posture?

Regarding divinity. It is experiencable, but doesn’t belong to the realm of thought. All thought necessarily frames it in dualistic terms.

See, there was this guy named Shankara, some Indian Vedanta dude back in the 8th century. He realized that even if you called it “Oneness or Unity” some formatory son-of-a-bitch (namely the rest of humanity) would naturally figure that such a term inferred Multiplicity. Yep. So, he sussed it and said, the best thing you can do is to say that it is “not twoness”. Yup. That’s what he said. Oh, and of course he also said that it is experiencable because that’s your natural state, even before the body is “born”. Yep, that’s what he said.

But, Yesri, you still got your hand up? Didn’t you say it better anyway?

20. dragon - April 8, 2009

17. Yesri

big hug!!! Your words are like dew!

your example may inspire us all, the Easter bunny and the seeker after truth and/or enlightenment!

21. nigel harris price - April 8, 2009

One from the Fence…..further to my post 11…..

Why are you looking (still!) for a father-figure – God, Allah, Jesus and Burton – to tell you what you should be doing? Remember the term in the FOF – BUFFERS – well that is what is happening when you look for an entity, described in human terms, to direct your life. When the God-State comes upon you – YOU ARE YOU – and then what?…..in my case a responsibility to Humankind…..you will have to find that one out for yourself! The point is, as Kid Shelleen spelled out, you need to live the question – THE QUESTION IS LIFE AND THE MYSTERY IS YOUR BECOMING. I implore you, if you are out of the FOF, not to return!!!!!…..Nigel.

22. Mick Danger - April 8, 2009

No. 19 Ellen –
So you think thought is limiting?

23. Mick Danger - April 8, 2009

Damn! This is a hard class.
When is recess?

24. michael - April 8, 2009

“…that you can put yourself in contact with them by an act of sheer will, or by a method, or by a sequence. It is impossible.”

Is it really impossible or just possible to say impossible? Have you tried everything? Isn’t the ship the anchor’s anchor? One thing I have found to be impossible for me is to separate anything from ‘the me’ who is experiencing it; I look out and Out looks in, what a journey standing still! Division was/is a big part of our religion(s), a ruthless habit of having two hemispheres?

25. No Fence - April 8, 2009

Many ideas, attitudes, thought processess, words, expressions, self-doubts, second guessings, fears, hatreds, mistrustings, and inertias were outgrowths of spending time in the FoF.

Meanwhile, just as those things were fed by the FoF, other things fell by the wayside… openness, receptivity, feelings of wonder, new ideas, new ways of thinking, new ways of making friends, new ways of connecting to a community, new ways of expressing yourself, a sense that despite all of the suffering in the world the universe is a good place, a sense that all is happening exactly as it should, and that you “are” exactly where you should be — in some cases, running as fast as you can away from something, sometimes running toward something else, and sometimes silent and content and relaxed. But you are where you need to be.

All of this is smothered by the FoF, where you are constantly wondering what you “should” be doing, with whom you should be doing it, and constantly learning how not to listen to your self.

26. Crouching Tiger - April 8, 2009


“One thing I have found to be impossible for me is to separate anything from ‘the me’ who is experiencing it; I look out and Out looks in, what a journey standing still!”

Well. It’s strange…. to have some awareness of the guy ‘using the method’ often seems to make the method work. Only that. But then, there’s little feeling that ‘I’ am doing the work. The kind of emotion involved doesn’t allow for anything but the question.

27. No Fence - April 8, 2009

I can’t tell sometimes if it’s because people have English as a second language, or if it’s something else. But (rhetorical question) does anyone else sometimes find it hard to understand what others are trying to convey when they post here?

Is it because we trained ourselves never to quite say what we wanted to say in the FoF, because we knew that saying it would lead to uncomfortable conversations and uncomfortable conclusions? So we express ourselves with indirection and poetry, in a realm where disagreement and conflict and dissent isn’t possible?

Are we testing the waters a bit first to make sure our thinking is readily accepted by “the group”? I know it’s a tough balance sometimes. But I want to hear YOUR thoughts, not “your thoughts filtered through the test mechanism of the blog” or — worse yet — our former mental conditioning of the FoF. It may be unavoidable: there’s constantly “testing” in any group to only state what you think after you first check to see whether anyone responds or approves or accepts or agrees.

News flash… This isn’t the FoF. No group think required here. Just say what you mean. Say what’s on your mind.

28. Panorea - April 8, 2009

Come on No Fence,

we were checking ourselves constantly…

we were asking for permission on an every-day basis…

we were not expressing doubts…

we were giving up our will…

we were quietly listening to a madman, trying to make sense…

for years and years and years…

Every time I write on this forum, I feel a bit lighter… I am connecting back to something which is mine…

And I am often so angry about the lost years…

Where is the music and art of my generation?

The 90s just passed by and I was wearing skirts to go to the meetings…

It takes time to dare again and to throw my arms around life…

To feel alive and witty and sexy…

It takes time….

29. Susan Zannos - April 8, 2009

Right. “Watchmen” was published over 20 years ago, and as far as I can tell from the non-response, nobody herein participating has read it. We sealed ourselves off from the art of our time.

30. ton - April 8, 2009

hey susan.
i’ve posted this several times here, but it ‘bares reposting’ (again). alan more is the author of WATCHMEN….


31. No Fence - April 8, 2009

I’m glad you feel that way, Tiger, and glad you’re letting your thoughts run free.

“giving up your will…” what an incredibly deceptive and dangerous idea that was, hey? Not to mention, extremely vague in its intent, which is to assert control over others and encourage passitivity and compliance. The conventional wisdom is that “giving up your will” has the psychological and spiritual benefits of giving up your ego, which does open up some beautiful realms. It would have been nice had that been the real intent, but it never was.

One of the guiding lights here is, “What’s healthy?”
Enabling a sociopath: not healthy.

Enabling your own possibilities to serve and connect with others and to connect with your self, and to connect with your own potential and to help others realize theirs:


32. No Fence - April 8, 2009

I meant to address that to Panorea. But you too, Tiger.

33. ton - April 8, 2009

circa 30…
sorry, i meant to write alan ‘moore’ —

“challenging assumptions…” etc…

34. elena - April 8, 2009

Some time in the future this period of time will be looked at as the dark ages of the soul in which men looked at life from their umbilical chord and thought of themselves as the centre of the world. That perspective is changing. Like a string from the individual to the whole in which when they are not connected there is no music but dissonance that hits the individual as much the world. The “world” in that portion of universe that lives as powerfully within and outside each individual.

One of the most delicate aspects of our time is that we’ve lost track of our selves and have come to live and act as if we had indefinite opportunities or the opportunity wasn’t worth the effort. The measure of meaninglessness about who one is or what one’s life is does not stimulate enough of an I inside to make one’s self present to one’s life and this shows not in the running to save the job but in the myriad instances in which one leaves almost everything undone, like threads one might pick up in another lifetime. It is no casualty that alzheimer’s is the illness of the day.

It’s in those threads that one’s objectivity is lost. One’s or maybe just mine! In the million moments in which I fail to incorporate reality to my self and it flies like a kite against the ground. It is also in every act of “sucking” some portion of the world into the void of the ego or in this body that doesn’t know how to relate to matter as the most subtle expression of fire. Bodies that don’t know the miracle they carry inside and bump around each other like children banging rattles to see what’s inside, exhausted with the failed orgasm to reach each other’s self and lose the love in the intent.

To look at one’s self, or that portion of it called the body, as a boat needed to appreciate this Ocean in which not a drop of water moves without touching the keel nor does the keel turn without moving the Ocean. We come not to the end of the world to travel afar, but to meet our selves in our self like guests who were always at home.
How could a feather move against you in the integrity of our reality?

One day we will experience the pleasure of knowing that we picked up the threads for each other’s recovery; that we fished each other out of oblivion and must continue the fishing until the last man is recovered; that the great adventures are kinder-garden analogies of the adventures of the spirit’s quest for its self, in which nothing is gained without knowing that one was there to get it. Spiders of the soul sending threads out into the whole of each human reference, emulating the hands, the touch or that love that’s one’s forgotten.

We once were. We will once be. Or maybe many will continue to grow like plants in a dessert’s winter and we will spend eternity recovering them for the simple pleasure of tasting each other’s soul like grapes in a vineyard.

I thought that plants were those physical occurrences of nature that I could pass by without looking, unrelated even in their flowering to our birth and watch them live and die without grasping the rhythm with which they mark our lives and deaths, with exactly the same precision with which ours are marked by them. Does someone remember why flowers are present in our funerals?

Maybe because the memory of our connection is still alive and returning to the garden as compost, is no loss for the flower or the soul.

One day no one will move a hand without the aim to touch and connect while the universe within meets the universe without through the prism of one’s self. Mankind is the rainbow of the spirit and each man faithfully reproduces its source.

35. elena - April 8, 2009

or that love one’s forgotten….

36. Susan Zannos - April 9, 2009

Thanks, Ton. (And thanks for the class you signed up for 30 years ago). I didn’t think much of the Moore-on-religion clip, but following links found a Moore interview on “Watchmen” that had some heft to it.

37. Josiane - April 9, 2009

Old Fish 69/298 (and Anna, and anyone who sees the simplicity and miracle of life), thank you for pointing it out. When we simply relate to what’s in our life through all our senses, the ego has less of a grip on it.

Some teachers have indicated that there is a “spiritual ego” which can hide anywhere there is structure, such as religion, spiritual teachings, and the like. Why? Maybe because, if the ego resides in the mind, and the more we rely on the mind to find our identity, then the more it has a chance of going unnoticed.

Burton’s invention’s of a “lower self as the enemy”, was a brilliant fabrication. It created an enemy against which a “spiritual entity” had to fight, that “spiritual entity” being nothing more than a newly created spiritual ego.

38. One from the fence - April 9, 2009

3. Elena-

Since you’re so adamant in talking about Gods, surely you believe there are devils and evil forces in the universe too. In your incredible uncommon sense, would the devil be the one that inspires people to stop raping each other then? Only the brainwashed MIND of cult members can equate such things and pretend to get away with it even if getting away with it means committing suicide in the end. A “life” like that, is a lot more tragic than people are willing to admit.

I guess I’m not thinking about higher forces so dualistically as that.

39. elena - April 9, 2009

How convenient on the fence! But you can’t meet the light if you’ve not actually accepted the darkness! Don’t be afraid to look at it! It’ll give you the opportunity to walk on Earth! Like Adam and Eve! Cult members are addicted to running away from darkness making it impossible to transform it.

Thanks for the modesty of your recent posts. Bravo! Maybe one day I’ll dance around you! or together!

Might as well correct things!

“A life like that is a lot more tragic than people are willing to admit!”

Sounds better without the comma! And the dessert winter is not as good as the desert’s winter for growing plants! One of this blog days I’ll actually learn English, grammar and punctuation! What fun!

40. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

34 elena

Brilliant, once again! In the ‘asylum’ once in Spring, I was looking out the window and asserted to myself that ‘the colour of flowers were the exuding of souls of the dead’. You mentioned, I think, that it was Goethe who said, “Colours are the suffering of Light”. The trouble is, the Cult is selling this ‘escape from death’ thing, where no-one realizes that death and birth are but doors (“The merest tuft of grass shows that there is really no death or, that if there were, it lead forth to something else” – Walt Whitman). so Burton is actually saying there is no need for change – just add-on the FOF personality and you will be saved, folks!

Elena, you and I, and I would presume many others, have gone through catharsis upon leaving the Cult of the FOF and are into new growth. Let it be so – let nothing die except the dead concepts of REB…..Nigel.

41. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

To Elena and One from the Fence – something I experienced:-

A certain interpretive difference
Awaits the twice-born.
Whitman’s heaven and hell
Give way to the first’s glory.

Litter picking/placing and decoding
Delights self and humanity.
From former form absorbed, transposed
And Earth’s imperfection more than satisfies.

Nothing goes away;
Neither poverty, hardship nor necessity.
All hangs ,deliberately placed
By angels beyond the screen.

The sun’s crime overcome,
He returns from sweeping the universe
To its limit in crashing waves,
That tell of the new Eternity.

(nhp) 1993

42. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

This is a ‘visual/moving centred’ poem which was included in ‘Lyra’ one year and was edited by C—–a H—n. I feel it gives imagery of how things seem when one looks through eyes of one’s Country Essence…..

CALIFORNIA (Views through Old World Eyes)


A Western state bathed in sweat of new conquest,
Allowing possession, or the suggestion of possessing, to charm a man.
Fences, stretched wires and steel posts,
Like strained banners for the cause of ownership,
Divide gold-drab plains and hills, vast and at ease;
Little lies or stands as unforced growth.
(Remember those Britannic fields that offered up their mossed wood fences,
Outlines pleasing to the fields themselves?)


Gaze and admire the metal mantisses,
Some astride long valley rows,
Staring at crops they helped to swell.
Some – white-worded, green and grey-legged-
Span the snakes of asphalt.
Others stretch way across bays and rivers
Inviting and disgorging mobile box-ants.

Here, pale green expanse and chrome;
There, sharp static, sun-crazed steel blue;
Four-wheeled easiness drifting, coughing, throttling by.

Occasional relentless hog-dragons,
Bound steel, up-front power,
Eighteen demoniac black- and silver-centred disks, flying.
Yet still prevailing, the decoration stuns.
Dabs of bright orange define the riveted slabs of the body.

They all roll on
To the city of Promise-to-Go.


But the man who was never promised anything,
Who only loved the dust and miles to ride alone,
Casts over the land a saddened, resolute gaze,
From eyes set hard on squint-thrust cheeks
(“Hard to understand a man like that”, they say.)
Four hooves shuffle in the dust;
(Settlers wonder why he’s leaving newly gained tranquility)
He jerks the mount’s muzzle,
Draws the bit tight in the reins;
A swing of horse flank, leather and steel
And many think he’s heading out
From warmth and hospitality;
He knows he’s really heading in, and why.


And heading in, still stung by images of you,
I wonder at your being on the other side
Of raising sons, of earth’s demand so soon;
And now with time ahead to cheat this scheme of dust,
Your life and love return to adolescent guile.
Your sinews lock your soul in muscularity,
And Love’s a dull, unscintillating thing
With no ideal request.

I know I will return through Sierra’s granite gates
And in different seasons touching rocks,
Run my thumb, pluck off a tuft of spongy green;
Or leaning back on a barky plane tree,
Try to be God way up to the topmost branch;
But not this time to seek that curious eye-flash
That asks to be asked, game-like, by you.


Embers of experience turn to ashen retrospect;
No epic love, landscape or scene as great as moments won by me;
I offer misting, disappearing breaths
And only have the air to touch me back.

(nhp 1985)

43. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

Elena – this is the way things seem to me, in altered states…..

In the beginning
If anyone can remember back that far
Was unfathomable womanhood.

By chance of Original Sin
Which became Ultimate Intelligence;
‘The Absolute was lonely so he created the Universe’.
This supports the Big Bang theory
Since the word of the Ultimate is the cry – I AM,
First account for me.

Creation was implosion
Then ap Rhys (impetuous one)
Throwing out too far (infinite dispersal of galaxies);
Then rolled back the tide to hold
Our solar system together.

Who knows? This may have been the time and place of all experience.

(nhp) 1996

44. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

And one inclusion concerning my craft…..
CYRIL STANLEY SMITH (Massachusetts Institute of Technology)

….the role of technology in altering human affairs has been consistently neglected….The record of man’s technological achievements is written not in words but hidden in objects, and because the record is hard to identify, it has not always been preserved.

A purposeful, utilitarian mind is indispensable in developing an abstract idea to the point of social importance, but the discovery of something new requires the sensibility and curiosity of the artist.

The history of metals in the hands of man encompasses fire and pain, frustration and triumph. It is the history of curious, creative man sweating and struggling through thousands of years over materials so mysterious that their craft was held in superstitious awe.

Thus, Biringuccio continued: “He who wishes to practice this art must not be of a weak nature, either from age or constitution, but must be strong, young and vigorous….nor do I doubt that whoever considers this art well will fail to recognize a certain brutishness in it, for the founder is always like a chimney sweep, covered with charcoal and distasteful sooty smoke….to this is added the fact that for this work a violent and continuous straining of all a man’s strength is required which brings great harm to his body and holds many definite dangers to his life. In addition, this art holds the mind of the artificer in suspense and fear regarding its outcome and keeps his spirit distorted and almost continuously anxious….But, with all this, it is a profitable and skillful art and in large part beautiful”.

45. One from the fence - April 9, 2009

39. But you can’t meet the light if you’ve not actually accepted the darkness! Don’t be afraid to look at it!

Thanks for you concern. But, I’m not afraid. I welcome it.

46. One from the fence - April 9, 2009

15. Panorea-
I’m not an atheist, but sometimes I feel that atheists and agnostics are closer to God

Meher Baba said the same, that (in essence) a person who lives their life with honor, goes to work at their stations with integrity, means more to him than a false-believer.

47. One from the fence - April 9, 2009

39. To me, the concept revealing inner darkness is vital, but in so far as we have impluses and thought-constructs that may inhibit us from being admitting certain truths. At times, I’ll think something, and see me mind begin to close around it, while a “higher” part of me says, “oh, come now, Jason… do you really believe that?” And, hesitantly, I waver a moment, then look upward toward a light that higher thought resides in, and say, “well, maybe not.”

so… gradations of light; obstructions that create shadow, even darkness; but, revealing these darknesses, and admitting to all the shadows of the world would be senseless to me and without value if I was not cognizant that really light is behind all of it, and behind that, well, something unborn, eternal. If you want to complain to me for having a respect for mystical ideas, listening tho them, wondering on them, well, then I would not say it is me that something is wrong with. You’re unable, so far, to see that my investigations about God may not be bound to thought constructs about the fellowship of friends. This makes you paranoid, even to the point that you called me dishonest.

48. One from the fence - April 9, 2009

Oy- didn’t edit before posting, ugh. First paragraph: To me, the concept of revealing inner darkness is vital, but in so far as we have impulses and though-constructs that may inhibit us from admitting certain truths.

I see the law of octaves in this- a beam of light, obstructed, creating shadow, and the obstruction must be understood in order to see through it, thus enabling the beam of light to continue.

49. Ellen - April 9, 2009

#22 Mick,
So you think thought is limiting?

It depends. Relative to what.

For exploration of the world, examination and communication with other creatures? No.

For experiential exploration of one’s self? Yes. The mind not only limits, it creates the limits. There is not a language on this Earth (TMK) that does not contain the grammatical structures of subject and object. So it’s inherent in the way we view our existence, although it is not existence itself. (There is a big difference between trans-rational and pre-rational.)

But I think you know that and you’re playing with me…
Nice poems, Nigel, thanks.

50. Mick Danger - April 9, 2009

I told you – lessons from Shri Meher Baba have been cancelled.
The next one caught revealing secret esoteric knowledge to the general public will be sent to the back of the class and severely disciplined. (And not by one of your feminine dominatrix’s either, Yesri.)

Yes Ellen, I was just funning with you in the land-o-paradoxes, but I would like to know just how the mind goes beyond itself. Explain it simply so that a child could understand.

In the beginning there was God & Nothing.
So I guess I will be reporting to the back of the class.

51. elena - April 9, 2009

Thank you Nigel for the immodesty of your recent posts. You sound more like a man each day! So do you From the Fence. Makes it worth being at your service! It was you who connected your self to the Fellowship and the so called wonders you saw in it. I’m glad you’re disconnecting yourself from it and standing on your own feet. It is easier to dance with people that don’t need institutions to move around!

Nigel, I particularly appreciated 41 and 42. How do you do that!? That rhyming? If I’d grown up in England maybe I’d be rhyming too! But keep showing me a lot of it and I’ll learn to rhyme like you!

The mind is an obstacle until it is a vehicle, like the body, the heart and everything else inside and outside of us.

Have a happy resurrection!

52. veramente - April 9, 2009

37 Josiane
Burton’s invention’s of a “lower self as the enemy”, was a brilliant fabrication. It created an enemy against which a “spiritual entity” had to fight, that “spiritual entity” being nothing more than a newly created spiritual ego.
Very clear. Thank you.

53. Panoritsa - April 9, 2009

Hi One Over the Fence.

I never said you were an atheist. I was just re-posting an entry I enjoyed…

At this particular moment of my life, I do not care whether one is an atheist, an agnostic or any other label one wants to use to describe their way of thinking and their belief system.

I am just trying to come into terms with being a part of a completely corrupted situation, in a Cult, disguised as a school of “awakening”, with a maniac as a leader and emotional junkies like myself as his followers.

And I do not care whether you want to go back to hell and talk in terms one hardly understands; it is your life and your trip. Maybe you need to experience yourself and your state of mind as being part of a Cult. It seems that some of us needed to go through this.

54. sharon - April 9, 2009

Is There a Seat of Wisdom in the Brain?
UC San Diego researchers first to study the neurobiology of wisdom


I don’t know if the link will work…

55. sharon - April 9, 2009

Yes, the link works.

56. fofblogmoderator - April 9, 2009

53 is newly moderated

57. brucelevy - April 9, 2009

53. Panoritsa

I agree. At this point in time it seems that Fence Head and The FOF are probably made for each other.

58. One from the fence - April 9, 2009

53. Panoritsa-
*confused* my language for a couple posts might have been unclear, as I didn’t think anyone was calling me an atheist.

59. Wouldnt You Like To Know - April 9, 2009

Thanks, sharon, a good read.

60. WhaleRider - April 9, 2009

The Assault on Reason

“To maintain mental control it is necessary to undermine self-trust. This is insidiously done by removing the way people can build trust in themselves. Self-trust is built by utilizing one’s own personal, firsthand experience as feedback. It is also built by sharpening mental and perceptual tools and frameworks in order to process, integrate, and evaluate one’s relation to the external world, as well as to inner dramas.

It is commonly assumed that the nature of spirituality in not only fundamentally different from ordinary experience, but that this difference is vastly superior. From this it is concluded that the tests of truth or meaning used for ordinary experience are not relevant for the so-called higher truths that gurus and religion offer.

The age-old separation of the spiritual from the worldly is deeply embedded in all of civilization. We view this split as tragic, and at the core of the fragmentation prevalent in the contemporary human psyche. The inner battle between the presumed higher and lower (or good and bad) parts of oneself often binds people with conflict by making them unable to accept themselves as whole human beings.

The Eastern view of enlightenment as beyond reason allows gurus to undermine reason. This precept alone makes the guru dangerously feed-back proof, for he automatically escapes accountability for any behavior.

Once critical faculties are disarmed, followers can accept the most bizarre and inconsistent behaviors: Gurus preach the unity of all being, while isolating themselves from all who disagree with them. They preach austerity and live lavishly. They preach equality and demand deference from their followers, who, following the lead of their idol, manage to feel superior to those deemed less spiritual. Anything the guru does can be viewed as a test of faith and commitment.

Gurus undercut reason as a path to understanding. When they do not allow discursive inquiry, they often place the highest value on paradox. Paradox easily lends itself to mental manipulation. Paradox is usually accomplished by shifting levels of abstraction.

With some, it is fashionable to denigrate reason and elevate emotion in an attempt to transcend the dryness of mechanistic science and linear thought. But using emotion without reason is as one-sided and limited as using reason alone. Living creatively is the art of combining passion with understanding. Without reason, one easily becomes a “true believer” who takes on beliefs that generate wanted emotions. Here, when thought is used, it functions to protect these beliefs by building an impregnable, closed system that is impenetrable to logic, experiences that do not fit, and inconsistencies (whether behavioral or mental).

Sanity involves the capacity to respond to information, internal and external, in a way that contains the possibility of change. Interfering with this process is one of the most subtle and basic abuses of authority-that is, the denial of, or even assault on, the follower’s basic experiences and discriminatory capacities. This allows a leader to manipulate even highly educated people, especially if their intelligence did not bring them fulfillment.

Reason does not guarantee wisdom. It is, however, a tool for integrating experience, which is necessary for self-trust, without which there can be little wisdom. When critical intelligence is labeled negative or unspiritual, or a hindrance to higher truths, what is left? There is little option but to take on the word or worldview of some “higher” authority.”

~The Guru Papers

61. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

51 elena

Thanks for your praise. Actually, I do not ACTUALLY DO IT! It is partly my North-Welsh descendancy (one of my clan actually won the Bard’s Chair and the Bard’s Crown at the National Eistedfodd of Wales one year, long back – the Reverend Hughes) and I had (blessed as I feel it now, although I learnt through fear, mostly) a fantastic classical English Traditional High School education (Latin, French, German, English Language and English Literature bolstered me). The poetry was written in ‘high’ moments’ of ‘fleeting thoughts’. I have not written much recently but can do ‘commentary’ as I do on the blog. I had to write 3,000 word essays every semester for 3 years for my Certificate in Education. Different forms of expression belong to different times and stages, I believe. You are not too bad yourself with your ‘lingua flora con descripta brava’. Do not underestimate your power with the written word. I am sure you have saved many from the Angry Jaws of Continuation in the Fellowship of Friends…..Nigel.

62. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

Hey Brucey…..

Q. What do you call a Hebrew?
A. A male cup of tea!

(From my J. of H. Lunar-Venusian long-standing student, Vicky)…..Nigel

63. brucelevy - April 9, 2009

62. nigel harris price


64. brucelevy - April 9, 2009

Are you sure it’s not: What do you call a male cup of tea…?

65. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

60 whalerider – the Guru Papers

“Living creatively is the art of combining passion with understanding.”

(In other words, it is entirely unnecessary to follow a code of practice, as in the FOF…..Nigel)

66. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

64 brucelevy

Right way roundsy-schmoundsy, me old fruit!…..Nigel

67. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

Here’s one for Elena…..

“I wish I was a caterpillar,
Life would be a farce;
I’d climb up all those twigs and trees
And slide down on my hands and knees!”

(Great full-moon, eh, lovey?!)…..Nigel.

68. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

47 One from the Fence

You CANNOT INVESTIGATE GOD!. When you are your Oneness, you ARE God-ness and everything IS Is-ness. Sometimes, as in Whitman’s propelling one to the “promintory of experience”, you are shot to the front of your emotional queue and descriptions count for nothing, except as in your own self-expression (for God’s sake, don’t try work terminology!!!!!)

69. ton - April 9, 2009

60 thanks whalerider for spoon-feeding insights here…. ‘spot on’ through and through.

re: cognitive dissonance as a tool/trick of mind control as used by the cult:

“….Gurus undercut reason as a path to understanding. When they do not allow discursive inquiry, they often place the highest value on paradox. Paradox easily lends itself to mental manipulation. Paradox is usually accomplished by shifting levels of abstraction….”

confusion is a higher state?! i don’t think so…. beware the ‘horse’s mouth….’ it may turn out to be the horse’s ass…. after all, we’re talking about two ends of the same stick… or tube/alimentary canal in this case

70. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

71 ton

Along the same lines…..

Q. What’s brown and sounds like a bell?
A. DUNG!!!!!

71. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

This is more serious, to Elena, Bruce and Lauralupa, and really is a…..

Poem from a Dream

The Jews were not holocaust;
They rise again in Steven Spielberg.
Passing under Hammersmith Bridge,
Were we not hearing glorious music?
But before that I saw a book that plays a game
On each individual human memory.

On the train under the bridge
I saw myself a Jewish boy,
Apologising to Mother for saying ‘knickers’.
But after the bridge I realised
That we were going to New York
To meet the Goldynes.

Italians and Germans singing Bach;
The Eva Braun equivalent
Tried to screw me
With nancy boys from Auschwitz looking on;
But to no avail..

My father realised I had bought a present-
A Liberty statue for Mr Goldyne,
Opened and bathed in fountains of Walt Whitman’s
‘Turn O Libertad’

Policemen and common people
All free to go as they please;
The awakening offered a fist
Of glorious delight.

(nhp) 1995

72. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

I read, Elena, the Bible, often, as words of poetical nature. Here is a passage from Deuteronomy…..

“If there arise among you a prophet, or dreamer of dreams, and give thee a sign or wonder,
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Thou shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God proveth you, to prove whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because HE HATH SPOKEN TO TURN YOU AWAY…..”

(In fact, I think One from the Fence might profit from reading the above…..)

73. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

Commandment Five…..

“Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days shall be long in the land that the Lord, thy God, giveth thee.”

74. nigel harris price - April 9, 2009

Sorry to go on…time to go to bed…..Nigel.

75. ton - April 9, 2009

nigel, it’s impossible to argue with poetry:

LET us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The muttering retreats
Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of insidious intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question …
Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
Let us go and make our visit.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
The yellow fog that rubs its back upon the window-panes,
The yellow smoke that rubs its muzzle on the window-panes
Licked its tongue into the corners of the evening,
Lingered upon the pools that stand in drains,
Let fall upon its back the soot that falls from chimneys,
Slipped by the terrace, made a sudden leap,
And seeing that it was a soft October night,
Curled once about the house, and fell asleep.
And indeed there will be time
For the yellow smoke that slides along the street,
Rubbing its back upon the window-panes;
There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet;
There will be time to murder and create,
And time for all the works and days of hands
That lift and drop a question on your plate;
Time for you and time for me,
And time yet for a hundred indecisions,
And for a hundred visions and revisions,
Before the taking of a toast and tea.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
And indeed there will be time
To wonder, “Do I dare?” and, “Do I dare?”
Time to turn back and descend the stair,
With a bald spot in the middle of my hair—
[They will say: “How his hair is growing thin!”]
My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,
My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin—
[They will say: “But how his arms and legs are thin!”]
Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.
For I have known them all already, known them all:—
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
  So how should I presume?
And I have known the eyes already, known them all—
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
  And how should I presume?
And I have known the arms already, known them all—
Arms that are braceleted and white and bare
[But in the lamplight, downed with light brown hair!]
It is perfume from a dress
That makes me so digress?
Arms that lie along a table, or wrap about a shawl.
  And should I then presume?
  And how should I begin?
      .      .      .      .      .
Shall I say, I have gone at dusk through narrow streets
And watched the smoke that rises from the pipes
Of lonely men in shirt-sleeves, leaning out of windows?…
I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.
      .      .      .      .      .
And the afternoon, the evening, sleeps so peacefully!
Smoothed by long fingers,
Asleep … tired … or it malingers,
Stretched on the floor, here beside you and me.
Should I, after tea and cakes and ices,
Have the strength to force the moment to its crisis?
But though I have wept and fasted, wept and prayed,
Though I have seen my head [grown slightly bald] brought in upon a platter,
I am no prophet—and here’s no great matter;
I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
And in short, I was afraid.
And would it have been worth it, after all,
After the cups, the marmalade, the tea,
Among the porcelain, among some talk of you and me,
Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question,
To say: “I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all”—
If one, settling a pillow by her head,
  Should say: “That is not what I meant at all.
  That is not it, at all.”
And would it have been worth it, after all,
Would it have been worth while,
After the sunsets and the dooryards and the sprinkled streets,
After the novels, after the teacups, after the skirts that trail along the floor—
And this, and so much more?—
It is impossible to say just what I mean!
But as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in patterns on a screen:
Would it have been worth while
If one, settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,
And turning toward the window, should say:
  “That is not it at all,
  That is not what I meant, at all.”
      .      .      .      .      .
No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant lord, one that will do
To swell a progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
Deferential, glad to be of use,
Politic, cautious, and meticulous;
Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;
At times, indeed, almost ridiculous—
Almost, at times, the Fool.
I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.
Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think that they will sing to me.
I have seen them riding seaward on the waves
Combing the white hair of the waves blown back
When the wind blows the water white and black.
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

ts elliot

here’s one for ‘it’ who shall not be named (you know who):

76. One from the fence - April 9, 2009


Eek. I think we are not on the same page at all. For you it seems everything is either in or out, black and white. It’s not so for me. Whether I return to the FOF or not, I experienced (not “saw” not “felt”, experienced (as did many other people there) miracles. If you did not, then you did not. You are heavy with mind and with hurt and with anger, and you are ferocious.

77. ton - April 9, 2009

on the fence….
consider this: miracles are experienced in spite of and definitely not because of the fof.

and in case it needs explaining, the ‘little brown ring’ link from my previous post was ‘inspired’ by nigel’s question:

“Q. What’s brown and sounds like a bell?”

78. Another Name - April 9, 2009

Dear Fence

I am happy you experienced miracles in the fof. I experienced miracles in and out of the fof. I choose to give up the miracles of the fof as they were packaged in a matter that I could not except. My conscience bothered me too much. if this was “Influence C’s” way of giving the miracles to me I had to release Influence. My choice and I am all for it.

I gave up the Gods, I released them if this means “”burning in “an imaginairy” hell,”” then this is my choice. I owe it and boy, FEELS so right. I owe it, dear fence I owe it. Freedom.

BTW loop at Joseph Campbell’s movie Sukhavati, I blieve it is called.
Find the heaven in you , now, Dear Fence Good luck.

79. The FOFion - April 10, 2009

Burton Says Leaving the FOF is ‘Totally Cool’

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — Shifting a decades-long stance that anyone leaving the Fellowship of Friends would suffer a fate of certain spiritual death and an eternity of horrible suffering in the afterlife, Fellowship Teacher Robert Burton has shocked the greater Yuba County Area with a reverse in policy.

Burton announced Thursday the new policy will take effect on Easter.

“Beginning on Sunday, it will actually be totally cool to leave the school,” Burton said. “No dire consequences whatsoever. However, if you leave before that, then you are doomed throughout all eternity. Or, let’s just say you will be placed at the back of the line, which isn’t so great either.”

The Fellowship is planning a champagne reception for all students who leave on Easter.

80. James Mclemore - April 10, 2009

‘One from the fence’ said
“Whether I return to the FOF or not, I experienced (not “saw” not “felt”, experienced (as did many other people there) miracles.”

From the last paragraph of Whaleriders post ~The Guru Papers
“When critical intelligence is labeled negative or unspiritual, or a hindrance to higher truths, what is left? There is little option but to take on the word or worldview of some “higher” authority.”

One From the Fence, I think it could be said of the quote from The Guru Papers that, ‘this Bud is for you’.

You have said things a few times that allude to the idea that people are being ‘critical’ or ‘negative’, or even ‘unspiritual’ in their responses. This same sort of exchange is probably going on inside of your own mind also, as you attempt to push your critical faculties and your conscience aside. If you wish to have a discourse here, or if you wish to have true discourse inside of your own mind, you will need to first toss out ALL the definitions (you might wish to include your definition of ‘miracles’), and ALL the ‘views’ for things that you received from the “hIgher authority”, and then see if you can learn to look for yourself. If there are things that happen to be useful or even true in what you think you have gathered and are now being encouraged to toss out, never fear, if they contain truth they will come back to you when and if you need them. And they will come back cleansed from the mind set of a cult. Even the things that might have been useful in the fellowship of friends, were, for the most part, rendered meaningless or worse after being mixed in with the misunderstandings and deceptions and the truly bizarre ideas in the closed-loop thought system of Burton.

81. ton - April 10, 2009


“Beginning on Sunday, it will actually be totally cool to leave the school,” Burton said. “No dire consequences whatsoever. However, if you leave before that, then you are doomed throughout all eternity. Or, let’s just say you will be placed at the back of the line, which isn’t so great either.”

i left many moons ago (that’s a long time ago) so i guess i’m shit out of luck, eh?

82. brucelevy - April 10, 2009

Tomorrow night (Fri) at Coopers in Nevada City, One of my all time favorite bands, Flowmotion.

get out your ya yas

83. nigel harris price - April 10, 2009

75 ton

You know – I have told you – that ‘ton’ is colloquial slang for 100, and 100 is the number of FATE – would you care to give a name for 75, since I see it often, but am weeping now at the reminder-poetry of art-college days in extra-curricular activities…..Nigel.

84. brucelevy - April 10, 2009

And another local favorite “That 1 Guy”. He’s a classical and jazz bassist who made a pvc instrument with bass strings and electronic triggers. Your jaw hurts you laugh so hard.

85. elena - April 10, 2009

One from the Fence.
Thank you. I’m beginning to believe that you are what you say you are and that makes me very happy! But I’m very naïve and if you take advantage of that and turn it to support the Fellowship again, you’ll see my fangs. You’re a not a Fellowshipper cheating us with influence “C”rap? Wonderful! I am sorry I made the mistake of thinking you were another one of those inside but the fact that you are outside doesn’t make you any less talented and therefore just as worthy of ferocious confrontation. If you were my brother, I’d hit you in the head a hundred times and if you were my husband, I’d expose you down the streets and scream at you so that you thought it over a little; no matter how long it took you. Please don’t be offended if I treat you no worse than I would treat my brother or my husband. I never understood that kind of love in which people watch immutable how others destroy themselves.

Now we can get on with it! We can talk. We can continue to help each other look at our selves. Together we see much better than individually! If you read back a little you’ll notice how generously I’ve been trimmed and how grateful I am for it! Too bad gratitude is not contagious! Don’t miss the opportunity to read everything, including the love! The love is also for you. And when you write, try to consider what you’re supporting in the world with your stand, you matter enormously! We live in an objective world no matter how subjective we are eager to be.

Godlike states that you experienced in the Fellowship belong to you. Your energy, your trust, your faith and willingness to believe, made them possible, like for the rest of us but they in no way minimize the other atrocities that belong to the Fellowship, no matter how well dressed in silk. If you can understand that your trust, faith and willingness belongs to you and nobody else, you won’t need intermediaries to connect with Influence C. Influence C lives more vividly in worlds six and three but they, or the spiritual, permeates all worlds. That world is inside you, us. They are one with you when you evoke that world within your self and manifest it on these green Earth not with acts of blind commitment but with conscious generosities and ferocious stands when ferocity is necessary. You are a man Jason. Don’t be afraid of being ferocious. We’ll need more than ferociousness to get out of the mess we’ve put our selves in. People are dying. People are committing suicide and killing others because all the world cults have stripped us from the god-like within each one of us. We’ve lost respect for our own as much as other’s lives. We allow for deaths and rapes, watch them in the news and T.V. since we were children and treat our lives with the same indifference with which we treat the show. Be serious when you talk about influence C. This is no game and we’re already pretty childlike and stupid to have one like you publicizing stupidity at full volume. If you want to go back to the Fellowship, go ahead, no one here is stopping you. But if you want to minimize and undermine the horrors of the Fellowship in this blog, be sure that I’ll be ferociously waiting for you.

If you’d rather believe that influence C is outside of you, we all have a date with them when we die, there is no need to rush things, it’s an appointment no one is going to miss. The first thing they’ll ask you is: What stopped you from living?Why did you give you self up to the likes of Robert Burton? But we all know the answer long before we die. Old people spend a lot of time crying. (Except for Dorothy! She had forgotten what was there to laugh or cry for but she smiled beautifully when we went out for icecream!) Have you noticed? Or are all the old people where you live put in places where they don’t “bother” anyone?

Nigel, thank you, that’s enough!!! We don’t want to be a bad example for the one from the Fence, filling the blog with our personal posts, one after another. I thoroughly enjoyed your love, if you wish to express more of it my e-mail now is tabluttatgmail.com Remember we are not alone here and we went through this before. There is no need to take too much space because it falls in or out of the ego and doesn’t take us anywhere. Your joy is mine. Thank you again!

86. brucelevy - April 10, 2009

weasel pot pie

87. elena - April 10, 2009

Jason, they’ll say, wht the fck were you doing with the likes of Robert Burton? only that they’ll be a lot more ferocious than that and all the justifications that members made up for over forty years will slip out of their hands in a second!

88. Tatyana - April 10, 2009

So, On the fence, can you tell us which miracles did you experience in FOF? No, really! Are you sure they were miracles? You remember what Gurdjieff said about the miracles?

89. nigel harris price - April 10, 2009

85 elena

Mmmmhhhhh! (the sound of a muffled post). You’re beautiful…..you really are!…..Nigel.

90. James Mclemore - April 10, 2009

Thanks – that guy is amazing. I am not sure I could listen to him for long periods of time, but anyone that inventive and innovative and that fucking crazy and free of restraints, you just have to love them.

91. brucelevy - April 10, 2009

90. James Mclemore

He usually opens for other bands. But he does a hysterical 30 min. set. One of his triggers sends plumes of smoke out of his instrument. He also occasionally sits in with some big names.

92. One from the fence - April 10, 2009

72. In fact, it is this very passage that has made me question Robert almost more than any other. There was another passage, in the New Testament (Paul?) even simpler, that says if it comes to pass, it is of God. If not, well…

93. One from the fence - April 10, 2009

85. One from the Fence.
Thank you. I’m beginning to believe that you are what you say you are and that makes me very happy! But I’m very naïve and if you take advantage of that and turn it to support the Fellowship again, you’ll see my fangs. You’re a not a Fellowshipper cheating us with influence “C”rap? Wonderful! I am sorry I made the mistake of thinking you were another one of those inside but the fact that you are outside doesn’t make you any less talented and therefore just as worthy of ferocious confrontation. If you were my brother, I’d hit you in the head a hundred times and if you were my husband, I

Elena, you think too much of yourself.

94. nigel harris price - April 10, 2009

93 One from the Fence

It is not thinking too much of herself. She IS REAL, and very real now! She gives of herself…..”I am great, I contain multitudes…..” (Whitman)…..Nigel.

95. nigel harris price - April 10, 2009

One from the Fence…..in support of your wish
for some sort of Real Being…..

“The world should lose her qualities if the celestial spheres should forget their wanted motions; if nature should intermit her colours and leave altogether the observations of her own laws: if the moon should wander from her beaten way; the times and seasons blend themselves by disordered and confused mixture: what shall become of man who sees not plainly that obedience unto the laws of nature is the stay of the whole world.”
Poetry on Heavitree Sculpture 2009

96. WhaleRider - April 10, 2009

Maintaining Dominance

“Power within the group is gained by deepening surrender to the guru, and members reward each other for making the group the priority. Deepening surrender does feel like letting go of the ego and is defined by the guru as spiritual progress. Secrecy and arousing desire are important parts of the seduction.

Any conflict disciples have about submitting to the guru’s authority is defined pejoratively as resistance to a higher truth, the intrusion of the ego, or a sign of unwillingness to give up attachments. Since surrender initially alleviates conflict and brings extremely good feelings, it is a powerful form of conditioning.

If people end up feeling good and more open, they mistakenly conclude that whatever promoted it must be true and good. Thus “feeling good” and opening boundaries are erroneously equated with truth. Conversely, anything that contradicts the guru’s point of view is labeled “negativity”; so information that runs counter to accepted beliefs is repressed and punished. This ploy conveniently prevents negative feelings from being used as a feedback that something might be amiss.

People whose power is based on the surrender of others develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior, or beliefs. Throwing a question back at the questioner is a common easy-to-use ploy. This is done by attempting to show how the question displays some lack in the questioner.

Another ploy is calling whatever seems to be problematic a “test of faith”. As the tests become more extreme, the release that passing the test brings is also more extreme. This is why it is possible for the leader to get his increasingly bizarre behaviors accepted. Anything can be looked upon as a test of faith.

Once reason has been undermined, there’s no way logically to refute the system-that’s why people who are ordinarily considered highly intelligent can become involved in believing, doing, and justifying just about anything.

A number of gurus have made statements to the effect that disobedience or disrespect of the guru has more severe spiritual consequences than other forms of morally unacceptable behavior.

It is also very enlightening to observe how gurus treat and refer to those who leave their fold.

As the guru’s power is dependent upon the disciple’s surrender, he does what is necessary to maintain that state. Still another ploy is parceling out or taking away power over others in the group.

Mysterious or supernatural powers have always been used to validate religious authorities. Even today many people operate under the basic assumption that the ability to perform some act that defies ordinary explanation means the person who does this has an inside track to truth or “higher truth”. Special powers people are reputed to have include healing or transmitting energy that gives others special experiences.

Is the source of energy transmission in the guru, or within a relational matrix where the receivers have a particular openness to receive? Is experiencing intense energy a sign of spirituality, or is the experience in the same vein as young ladies who swoon in the presence of rock stars? Bottom line, those who use anything seemingly out of the ordinary to get others to bow down to them should be held suspect.

The guru’s specialness is presented as the result of many lifetimes of purification. So it is tacitly implied that one’s advancement can never approach the guru’s exalted state-not at least in this lifetime. It is far easier to surrender to a projection of perfection than to someone who is essentially like you.

Gurus claim to bestow unconditional love on those who surrender to them, while whatever emotional connection exists is conditional on surrender and obedience. In short, gurus basically tell disciples what they want to hear, including how special and wise they are for surrendering to them.

The deceit underlying most ploys is that the guru has no self-interest at all. The traditional ideal of enlightenment allow this deciet free reign because the guru is placed in a category beyond the knowledge and judgement of others. From here gurus can rationalize any contradictory behavior.

People are especially vulnerable to charismatic leaders during times of crisis or major life change. (…like in Russia, perhaps…) Most often those who enter into this kind of authoritarian group are having problems bringing meaning, human connection, and good feelings into their lives, all of which become instantly available upon joining. What they also gain is a sense of power, usually greater than any they previously had. Although seemingly relinquishing their power, they actually trade what little personal power they had to piggy-back on the guru’s power.

The higher up one is in the organization, the more one’s power and even livelihood are hooked into it and the guru. This makes it very difficult not to accept, rationalize or deny any incongruent, greedy, or corrupt behavior on the part of the guru or the organization as a whole.

Typically the guru lets it be known that he is on the crest of evolutionary awareness and anyone who joins him can participate in being on the wave of history. Competitiveness is built into the posture of being on the cutting edge.

In order to get and keep members, each group must believe in and defend its superior position and claim to be the best at doing whatever is valued. People don’t want a second-rate guru; they want the one who seems the best. This is naturally a breeding ground for hypocrisy, lies and the cultivation of false images of purity. Gurus are thus forced to assume the role of the highest, the best, the most enlightened and so forth, otherwise people would go to one who is. Consequently, it is largely impossible for a guru to permit himself real intimacy, which in adults requires a context of equality.”

~The Guru Papers

Next up: “Gurus and Sexual Manipulation”

97. elena - April 10, 2009

Thank you Whalerider for those texts. They greatly summarize what we’ve been screaming about.

98. veramente - April 10, 2009

86 Bruce
thanks for the youtube!It takes me out from my habitual self.

99. veramente - April 10, 2009

just for fun I searched “veramente” on youtube

100. X-ray - April 10, 2009

‘The Guru Papers’ is the Bible, recommended to every one who came across a cult mentality.

101. WhaleRider - April 10, 2009

Gurus and Sexual Manipulation

“As is the case in all highly competitive activities, those who rise to the top are extremely good at what they do. They are usually charismatic people who are masters at manipulating image and emotion. The enormous attention given to appearance leads to a concern for packaging rather than what’s inside the package. Focusing on image (alchemy) is essentially shallow.

The nature of such so-called spiritual hierarchies is that everyone at every level has a role to play and an image to keep up. This is especially true of the guru, who not only defines how those under him are to appear, but must himself present the image his disciples want and need.

Since the roles are so highly defined, the people who fill them are somewhat interchangeable. Hierarchies in general foster modularity since what counts is fitting into their rungs and roles. The disciple role can be filled by anyone who properly surrenders to the guru. Since adulation from any one person eventually becomes boring, gurus do not need any specific disciple-they need lots of them.

Gurus do give special attention to those with wealth or power; having celebrities in one’s entourage increase coffers, influence, and membership. What appears to be a strong personal bond between guru and disciple is usually illusory, as it depends solely upon the disciple acknowledging the guru’s authority. Should that break, little remains.

For most, what the guru is really like is difficult to ascertain. Those at the top usually display contentment and equanimity, which are mistakenly taken as signs of spirituality. Successful gurus, like monarchs of old, have their every whim catered to and are totally taken care of. The power, (money), and adulation at their disposal are more seductive than any drug. It is not surprising they appeared “turned on”, especially in public.

Looking carefully at a guru’s inner circle is extremely revealing. Those closest to him, his most dedicated students, display better than anything else where his teaching leads after years of exposure. What is also displayed is who he prefers to have around him: are they strong and interesting in their own right, or are they boring sycophants who continually feed his ego? Do disciples ever “graduate” and become self-defining adults, or do they remain obedient and tied to the guru?

…To control a person sexually is to have control over a basic aspect of human life. Sexuality is a deep power in human beings that underlies attraction; attraction, the capacity to command attention, is one key to personal power. Thus to exercise sexual control is to have real power over individuals. Yet sex is so basic that ideology alone is not strong enough to control it. Fear and guilt must also be used as control mechanisms.

Gurus likewise do many things to ensure that their disciples’ prime emotional allegiance is toward them. In the realm of sexuality, the prevalent ways control is exerted are through promulgating either celibacy or promiscuity. Although seemingly opposite, both serve the same function: they minimize the possibilities of people bonding deeply with each other, thus reducing factors that compete with the guru for attention.

Openly promiscuous gurus utilize their power to create what amounts to a harem for their pleasure. The real motives behind their sexual excursions are often masked as by such words as “teaching”. One famous guru had a procurer. This disciple, later sadly disillusioned, described herself as having been his pimp. He would specify certain physical traits for a given evening and she would round up someone for his nightly pleasure. When asked how she justified this to herself, she said that at the time she thought of him as godlike and God can do anything.

Gurus who preach celibacy while secretly engaging in sexuality present sex as an esoteric initiation ritual or advanced spiritual exercise. This makes the disciple feel special while colluding in an enormous lie and manipulation that has severe emotional repercussions.

The implications of a spiritual teacher lying about sex are often deflected by focusing on the sex instead of lying. Here some people actually feel good about the guru’s behavior in that it validates for them that there’s nothing wrong with sex after all. We have also heard people say they were glad the he “got some”. (Some???)

Lying here as elsewhere is done to cover up self-interest.”

~The Guru Papers

Next up: “The Traps of Being a Guru”

102. James Mclemore - April 10, 2009

An excerpt from Whalerider’s last “Guru Papers” post. Even though he just posted this, this one paragraph ‘stood out’ and just seemed like it needed reposting, as it goes right to the heart of some of the recent posts about ‘c influence’ and ‘miracles’.

“Mysterious or supernatural powers have always been used to validate religious authorities. Even today many people operate under the basic assumption that the ability to perform some act that defies ordinary explanation means the person who does this has an inside track to truth or “higher truth”. Special powers people are reputed to have include healing or transmitting energy that gives others special experiences.”

103. James Mclemore - April 10, 2009

excerpt at 102 is from Whaleriders post at 96. I just realized he posted a new section.

104. nigel harris price - April 10, 2009

101 whalerider

That book has given you great insight…..Nigel.

105. Panoritsa - April 10, 2009

I just went through some posts from the beginning of AnimamRecro…

Incredible information…

How can one miss all that and keep believing in the Myth of the Fellowship?

106. James Mclemore - April 10, 2009

105. Panoritsa

Yes. I did not find this blog until about page 25, and I went back and read most of what had gone before. I was stunned and thought as you do, that if anyone does go back and wade through all of what is there, they will be shocked (at times to tears), and they will get a pretty clear picture of Robert Burton and the fellowship of friends. Reading that and sensing the fortitude and honesty of some of the bloggers that have been here since the early pages, as well as some of those who have come and gone since, is why I am still around. It just makes you want to help to put an end to it. I liked Ellen’s summation a few pages back, at the end of one of her posts.
“Drain the victim pool, illuminate the mind-fuck and know your neighbor as your Self.”

107. Another Name - April 10, 2009

Thanks Whalerider….

This part of the “Guru papers’ touched me

“When asked how she justified this to herself, she said that at the time she thought of him as godlike and God can do anything.”

What a believe system, based on a “off” perception and what consequences come from these perception or learned beliefs.

My response: God nor the Gods nor Influence C can not do any thing. This is a wrong conception and it is time to teach our selves, our children and grand children to discriminate and make their own decisions from their heart, consciences and soul.
To say no when it does not feel well, ad to be true, deeply inside ourselves

Nor God nor Gods can do anything they want. Be Aware.

108. Walter J. Tanner - April 10, 2009

Burton’s small time:

Dublin archbishop: Sex abuse report will shock
He says it will show that thousands of youths were abused from 1975-2004
The Associated Press
updated 6:33 a.m. PT, Thurs., April 9, 2009
DUBLIN – The Archbishop of Dublin said Thursday that an upcoming report on child sexual abuse involving Catholic priests will likely reveal that thousands of youngsters were abused from 1975 to 2004.

The report “will shock us all,” said Diarmuid Martin, during Mass at Dublin’s Pro-Cathedral.


109. elena - April 10, 2009


This chapter is good but we’ve actually gone much deeper here in relation to how it worked in the Fellowship. We did have a master at it so it is not surprising that our insights are good.

One aspect that is not touched and I don’t think we’ve mentioned is that if so many sexual partners stick around the guru, it gives him credibility. Thinking he’s good at sex and can hold the boys or the women for long periods of time helps his image a great deal. Does anyone know how many are still around from before the blog? They have to be getting a lot out of it to remain. How much does a regular actually get paid? If they are “declared whores”, it changes the equation doesn’t it? I wonder how members justify it either way? “My guru has a harem of paid whores” or “my guru has a harem of raped boys and a thousand voyeurists who pay for it”!! “It makes him more enlightened!”

Another aspect that is not mentioned is the fact that as long as the guru can seduce someone sexually, no matter the technique, it boosts his ego. Nothing sucks people in as much as sex and both the guru and the boy are mutually dependent on each other. As long as hundreds support the guru, the boy feels justified, as long as the boy submits, the guru justifies himself. He needs, like anybody else, the reassurance and is willing to pay high prices for it. The trips and clothes are no coincidence and no matter how wild the ride, there is mutual dependency. All involved are trapped not only by the wild ride of the adepts but by sex itself.

The position of the sex mates as the only true “inner circle” with immense privileges in relation to the rest of the members is significant. The more the guru depends on the sex mate the more he’ll trust them for positions of authority but this reveals his own decadence in which he no longer trusts members that he cannot submit to that extent. In the Fellowship the rise of Asaf and Dorian is meaningful of that period and Dorian and Mihai’s abuses are even more revealing of the decadence that was not even tried to dissimulate. Robert was already so dependent on them that he allowed it to pass as if it meant nothing. The members were so sedated by then that in effect, it didn’t mean enough to question it or leave. Everyone knew we were absolutely impotent before it… but things add up.

110. elena - April 10, 2009
111. ton - April 10, 2009

elena circa 109

“….All involved are trapped not only by the wild ride of the adepts but by sex itself….”

the question is, ‘adept’ at what?

thanks to all here for continuing to reveal different facets of the fof scam, the con….

112. The FOFion - April 10, 2009

FOF and ‘The Others’ Enter Into Joint Venture

HONOLULU (ARK) – The Fellowship of Friends Corporation has entered into a joint venture with The Others, a weird cult made famous by the hit television series, “Lost.”

Several sources believe the two cults will trade places for one year — The FOF will move to a secluded Pacific island, and The Others will move to Oregon House.

“I know, it doesn’t sound like a great trade,” said Others Leader Benjamin Linus, “But you know me. I probably have something up my sleeve.”

Insiders in both camps say the deal is not a merger, but a partnership. Analysts now believe the change has made spiritual enlightenment even more challenging than it already was. To reach the Kingdom of Heaven and avoid a horrible fate in the afterlife, a person must now join both the FOF and The Others.

“This is getting really absurd,” an FOF member said Friday. “Things were so normal and healthy before this. Now I’m really starting to doubt the direction of the school.”

113. ton - April 10, 2009

fofian… never could get into ‘lost’ — nor as it turns out the fof.

y’all may or may not get the connection to my previous post and the junkie who leads the fof:

114. ton - April 11, 2009

passe’ is: a guru’s sexual addiction…
‘guru’ — what a joke…

115. ton - April 11, 2009

and one more before bed… put this one on your netflix list…. DIG:

116. Jomo Piñata - April 11, 2009


Well done!

117. elena - April 11, 2009

Ton, never quite understood the word, we could just leave it at “addicts” and it’ll describe us much better!

118. ton - April 11, 2009

elena, re: “addicts” and jomo, ‘well done’ or ‘rare’, to each their own….

ode to you know who:

I never thought youd be a junkie
But today,
If you think that I dont know
About depression and
Emotional pain,
You’re insane, or your
A fool who hasnt paid attention
To a word that I say.

In a way, I cant
Help but feel responsible.
I always knew that you were insane
With your pain.

But I never thought youd be a junkie
Now a-day.
You never thought youd get addicted,
Just be cooler in an obvious way.
I could say, shouldnt you have got
A couple peircings and decided
May-be that you were gay.

In a way
I cant help but feel responsible,
I always knew that you were insane
With your pain…

119. brucelevy - April 11, 2009

108. Walter J. Tanner

No sexual abuse is “small time” unless you can’t see past your nose.

120. brucelevy - April 11, 2009

109. elena

You’ve been pretty loose lately with the “we” and “us” and “we’ve”. How about more “I”, “me” and “myself” and more restraint when using the royal “we”. Personally, no one speaks for me, except me. Maybe it doesn’t make anyone else feel uncomfortable, so “I’m” speaking for myself.

121. ton - April 11, 2009

circa 108 walter tanner and 119 (thanks bruce)
walter, i hope you are not attempting to diminish the effects of the sexual abuse that occurs in the fof by making comparisons ?

122. elena - April 11, 2009

Worth watching if you haven’t already.


I think it is clear by now that I don’t speak for you or anyone else here. The shower of support that you give me makes it clear enough, doesn’t it? At least Nigel doesn’t buffer when he actually likes it!

When my impression is that many of us are subject to whatever I’m talking about, we, fits, but don’t think I use it because I’m using you to represent my self. It is also fine to state that you don’t agree and want nothing to do with it. Exceptions to the rule don’t invalidate the rule and we’ve disagreed enough to be afraid of disagreeing further, haven’t we?

The we on 109 don’t seem as bad as on the post before it. Before it, it’s quite awful! But not the use of we as much as the getting too much into it! Terrible! But bear in mind that sometimes I’m actually addressing the person who I am writing to and not all of you and the dialogue is in that person’s perspective and not all here. And since all is black to you, does it really matter how much more black it gets?

In the one after, anyone who spent more than a week had to be addicted otherwise what could stop them from leaving if they were sane enough? I won’t do anything about that one!

Say Bruce, is there really nothing else you have to say but black?

I much enjoy black, it’s challenging, but black only is bias and no dialogue can grow. It makes it unworthy of participating. Like in a Cult where all agree what they laugh at, shoot at, ignore and applaud. Don’t you find it awfully cult like? I thought we’d left!

123. WhaleRider - April 11, 2009

The Traps of Being a Guru

“The human mind is an image builder that uses the present to attempt to create the future out of the past. The selective process that lets things in that verify self-images while keeping out what undermines them is itself an unconscious process. Actually, self-images are filtering systems that only work well if one is not aware filtering is going on.

Usually what is repressed or filtered out are motives and behaviors that do not match one’s ideals. We believe every self-examining person has, at one time or another, realized that they are more conscious than they were which means they were less conscious previously. This is enough to validate some conception of unconsciousness.

We also think that because the unconscious is unconscious, (and will largely remain so) assuming that one is beyond it reach can only make one less alert to its power. Spiritual authorities who present themselves as unchallengeable purveyors of truth undermine Western contemporary frameworks of the unconscious because they cannot acknowledge that they too, may be in its sway. Neither do they want their disciples to question too deeply their motives.

To attract followers, gurus must present themselves as enlightened beings (without ego), which includes not having an unconscious (or have transcended their “lower self”). There is good reason for this: To surrender totally to another it is essential to believe the recipient of such trust is not motivated by self-interest. The possibility of unconscious elements in the guru would mean there could be unacknowledged or secret self-interest. It would be most difficult to have absolute faith in the pronouncements of a teacher on suspected of having unconscious motivations.

A largely unconscious process that can occur in any context where one person helps another is called transference. Transference that is reinforced such that it becomes a way of life insures that the student or disciple will remain fundamentally childish. (with a promise that only as a child will you enter the kingdom of heaven)

Anyone who denies having an unconscious stops an essential process of awareness which involves being very alert to the workings of one’s own filtering process. This denial can only increase the power of the unconscious. Because a spiritual authority cannot compete well (with other spiritual leaders) from a position of fallibility, gurus are caught on the horns of a dilemma: by denying the unconscious they become more unconscious; but if they acknowledge its possibility in themselves, they can no longer be infallible.

More often those who became involved in such groups could not conceive of themselves as subject to authoritarian manipulation. They saw themselves as true spiritual adventurers, unafraid to push against the boundaries of convention. For them, the very fact that they were capable of going beyond social constraints was a sign of liberation. That many discontented and innovative people were unwittingly seduced into submission and conformity (visible only to others) indicates the depth of people’s susceptibility to authoritarian control.

The person most at risk of being strangled by the images demanded by the role of the guru is the guru. Seeing more deeply contains no guarantee against one’s mind becoming concomitantly more clever at fooling itself. Moreover, when anyone is treated as an “arrived” human being, the potential for self-delusion is far greater than in any other context.

At the heart of the ultimate trap is building and becoming attached to an image of oneself as having arrived at a state where self-delusion is no longer possible. This is the most treacherous form of self-delusion and a veritable breeding ground of hypocrisy and deception. It creates a feedback-proof system where the guru always needs to be right and cannot be open to being shown wrong-which is where learning comes from.

Why would even the most realized of beings want people to become more reliant on his wisdom instead of their own?

This image of the guru as beyond self-delusion cuts off real awareness in both gurus and disciples. Authoritarian ways of relating undermine vigilance so that both sides have unconscious vested interest in the unquestioned power of the leader. In spiritual realms the power is so absolute that it can lead to extreme excesses.

A crucial element is being self-aware involves being alert to when one is “putting oneself on”- meaning telling oneself what one wants to hear. There is a tendency within the human mind to construct a universe with itself in the center. Sanity is the realization that one is not alone in doing this.

Sanity is also the capacity to change through being open to feedback, to new information.

The idea that any one mind has the corner on truth creates isolation that is extraordinary. This easily leads to deterioration of physical or mental health.

Disciples can and do become disillusioned with a guru. It is far more difficult for gurus to become disillusioned with themselves. They can always rationalize anything they do, no matter how mistaken or even sleazy, and find at least a few people willing to support and idolize them.

So the guru role makes it extremely difficult to escape the traps of power-the ultimate trap being that in the end, gurus lose their humanity.”

~The Guru Papers

Next up: “Healing Crippled Self-Trust”

124. Mick Danger - April 11, 2009

In the interest of promoting harmony – Happy Easter Folks!
From the sixth advent of this cycle of time, Quran, Sura 4:157
“And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him – they were made to think they all did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning the issue. They posses no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.”
You do believe in the Easter Bunny, don’t you?

125. elena - April 11, 2009

Thank you very much Whalerider, that is all very powerful.

“A largely unconscious process that can occur in any context where one person helps another is called transference. Transference that is reinforced such that it becomes a way of life insures that the student or disciple will remain fundamentally childish. (with a promise that only as a child will you enter the kingdom of heaven)” GP

When I mentioned addicts I was making a bit of a joke but relating to exactly that phenomenon that I didn’t know how to describe of “transference”. The addiction that I am referring to is to that dependency on the guru (Robert) as the Teacher-Father-Godlike figure. I can recognize in myself going as far as the Father figure but observing others going into Godlike idolatry shocked me more than anything else. The “addicted” behaviour becomes quite obvious when members reach that degree of identification with the guru because they start acting towards him in the same way that people act around drugs or alcohol, with a devotion that no longer cares if anyone else understands. The delusion reaches its peak and the treatment of such people would have to be no different to the treatment of drug addicts and alcoholics each in their respective realm. In both, the process seems to involve the recovery of their sense of I. The transference from the ‘I’ to the drug or the guru connects any positive experience of life to them and without them the “addict” feels lost and depressed. The recovery of the sense of I means a recovery of the connection with life. The process can take a long time but people who’ve recovered from one might achieve it sooner the second time!

There is another possibility and it is not connected to losing the “sense of ‘I’” but to losing the sense of “the other” as if the energy a standard individual provides for the perception of the whole world were “sucked” in and focused in the world through the drug or the guru. What the addict has lost is then not exactly himself but the world and what he recovers is its meaning, its value.

In this period I wonder if people are more prone to this phenomenon than in other periods and how it is related to growing up in front of a T.V. in which life happens with one’s identification but without one’s participation. The energy that the impressions arouse is drained in full without one doing anything but suffering it, very similar to what happens in any form of identification, which in the long run is the habit of “living in imagination”. The “imagination” the addict creates around the drug, bottle or guru is what supplies him or her with the emotional charge.

If we could understand this a lot better, “we” (human beings) would be able to better understand why it is so easy for drug addicts and alcoholics to fall back into the addiction and why cult members keep looking for cults. We would also understand how to better “treat” it, together with other forms of depression.

The fact that people still think cults are about freedom of religion and not addiction holes that make slaves of the inmates shows how ignorant we are about them.

This aspect of human behaviour in relation to drugs and cults is very revealing. Has anyone read about it in their studies on cults? If so I would appreciate the name of the book.

126. More history needed? - April 11, 2009

Dear Elena

If you look at the picture which was posted, you could see Robert with 7 or more woman and one man on the dinner table. The man is M-r– F-nt-n- who is in charge of the PR on the web. Left and right of Robert sit women. No Robert’s boy. Interesting question “Where are the boys”

In the kitchen, cooking dinner? Or working in the gardens? Or left or send back to Russia for some visa problem?

Story: Student in OH store

“No events hardly, everybody pays what he/she wants.

1623 on the official list. Many can not even leave as they are depended on their income and what so ever.

More then 400 living at Apollo many do live in other cities like Sacramento, Marysville and other cities in and around.
Financial shortages.”

Make up your own mind.
Time will tell.

127. elena - April 11, 2009

More history needed,

Robert’s pattern is not to sit the boys in that kind of “Teaching dinner” that is more expensive than the others. He likes them in the dinners with sixty or so at the Galleria where he touches them under the table, in the meetings and in the summer, he only sits with them in the tents so I am not surprised that they are not in the picture. I don’t suppose you’re implying he’s given up the boys although it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s had to conceal his act a little better.

The news you give are very welcome. No events and everybody pays what they want is a terrible step meant to reinforce the belief that it is not a money making cult but a devoted school of awakening. They are just trying to ride the tide hoping the storm passes without affecting them worse. The 1623 members figure doesn’t make sense. If there are close to a thousand in the greater Fellowship and we were supposed to be little more than two thousand two years ago, it is doubtful that there are still more than a thousand but even if there were just ten, it would be too many.

The danger is that whoever is left knows how to build and rebuild and it is so easy to dope people into cults.

Thanks for your information.

128. nigel harris price - April 11, 2009

127 elena

“…..and everybody pays what they want…..”

I tend to think REB is having to intercede in the “money-making octave”, since there are incredibly dwindling numbers, as you postulate. What I want to postulate myself in this regard is that Burton has started his own “quivering sphincters” octave and is having to deal, first hand, with those who can give ‘pots-of-dosh’ and then let it be known that those who can give what they can, do so. A sure sign that the ‘walls of Jericho’ are about to tumble down…..Nigel.

P.S. I’ve been having my visions again, but don’t call me a guru. N.

129. ton - April 12, 2009

easter sunday….
many myths attempt to explain the mysteries of air-breathing existence as we know it… easter is not fixed on the calendar, it’s observance occurs between late March and late April, following the cycle of the Moon. in essence easter is based upon ‘cosmic’ events, earth’s movement in relation to other celestial bodies, in this case the moon and especially the ‘return’ of the sun with the vernal equinox…. “After centuries of disagreement, churches accepted the computation of the Alexandrian Church (now the Coptic Church) that Easter is the first Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon, which is the first moon whose 14th day (the ecclesiastic “full moon”) is on or after March 21 (the ecclesiastic “vernal equinox”). in symbolism, time of year / position in the calendar, Easter is linked to the Jewish Passover… (Jesus was after all ‘a jew’) or so the story goes…


In late antiquity some variants of Gnosticism used the term Archon to refer to several servants of the Demiurge, the “creator god”, that stood between the human race and a transcendent God that could only be reached through gnosis.


130. WhaleRider - April 12, 2009

Healing Crippled Self-Trust

“Many people who give themselves to authoritarian groups and later become disillusioned end up deeply mistrusting themselves. In order to surrender to an external authority, some self-mistrust already has to be present. This includes not believing one could get “it” on one’s own. (“Schools are for those who need them and know they need them.”)

Ironically, people usually implicitly trust their capacity to recognize the authority who can lead them to what they want. But unfortunately, given how easy fear and desire are to manipulate; this is possibly the last thing that should exempted from mistrust.

The deeper one surrenders to an authoritarian structure, the harder it is to detach from it because one’s very identity becomes wrapped around that context-one’s emotions, beliefs, images, worldview, language, livelihood, relationships, etc. In fact, the group, with the authority figure at the center, becomes the foundation of all meaning, intimacy, and even possibility for the future.

Those in the inner circle or high on the organization’s rungs have an even more difficult time unhooking. Most have achieved more power and feelings of specialness than they ever had before or could on their own. Each becomes a minor authority to those below.

Leaving the group after having surrendered to it often puts one back into the confusions and lacks that initially made the group appealing. In addition, another sometimes paralyzing self-doubt may occur-doubting one’s capacity to find a way out of the confusion.

One’s sense of reality is delicate because many things previously believed now seem the opposite of what they where. The guru’s seemingly unconditional love was really about wanting unconditional power; his selflessness was egomania in disguise (or worse); his purity was corrupt.

The burning questions in one’s mind are: “How could I have been so taken in?” “How can I trust myself to know what’s real or good for me?” The difficulty of leaving is compounded by the reality that doing so rarely feels good initially. Instead there’s bewilderment and anger mixed with depression and self-blame.

Fear is a large part of what keeps many in these groups-not only fear of returning to the uncertainties of being on one’s own, but a deep fear of being awash without being able to trust one’s own judgment at all. This also impacts trusting others, for disillusionment around one’s basic beliefs often breeds a generalized cynicism. So the stakes of believing or not believing in the authority are very high.

The follower’s fears of going back to a life that could be even worse than before give the guru even more power over them. This is similar to an addict’s fear of returning to the drab, dull life the addiction was trying to alleviate. In fact, dependency on an authoritarian group displays many similarities to addiction.

Leaving a group creates more than an identity crisis, for it involves mistrusting one’s deepest emotions and basic perceptions of self, others, and the universe. In addition, one doubts the wisdom of following one’s passion. Whereas passion about a cause used to be a sign of authenticity, it, too, can no longer be trusted. The ex-disciple’s world is turned on its head: What the guru and group presented as unconditional love was conditional upon accepting their authority; the egoless guru was found to be on a manipulative, even crass, (or predatory) power trip.

For people who surrendered totally to a guru and thus experienced passion more deeply than before, seeing “The emperor wears no clothes” can be devastating. So it’s no wonder followers have tremendous resistance to anything that causes them to doubt the veracity of the authority. Surrendering to an authority makes it easy to overlook or rationalize what would ordinarily be considered unethical.

Even more unsettling, one might have found oneself, doing or willing to do, very hurtful things to others. Having seen the extent of their capacity for self-delusion and for being so under the sway of another, it is not surprising that many upon leaving the group not only fear themselves, but the world in general. They saw others who were also willing to follow the leader’s dictates no matter what; so the realize people are capable of doing most anything, which makes the world a scarier place.

Ex-cult members often describe themselves as crippled, sometimes even a decade or more later. What is crippled is the capacity to trust oneself which when lost is difficult to regain. This is the serious challenge for those who leave the authoritarian groups face. People usually try to overcome this through a determination never to be duped again. Unfortunately, this stance brings about defensive postures that leave a person cynical and closed.

Underneath such cynicism is fear of commitment and openness-both of which brought considerable pain. Behind most cynicism there is a disillusioned idealist. The protective posture can make people more functional, but with it they become more guarded, rigid, emotionally cut off, end vulnerable to depression because of a deep reservoir of fear and anger. Depression usually coats fear and anger.

It’s difficult to make a deep connection with the world when one is afraid to be conned, deceived, or to follow one’s passion. This mistrust can also affect one’s personal emotional life. In some cases, people become afraid to involve themselves in real intimacy.

Becoming disillusioned with the nature of surrender and passion can limit one’s capacity to love, because what was previously thought of as love was found to be only image, and essentially a lie. Defending against involvement often leaves ex-cult members with greater boundaries and limits than they had before their cult experience.

What real healing must involve is rebuilding self-trust. This is not an easy task, for having been seduced by the cult experience give one little reason to trust oneself. Of course, it is possible another person’s love or care could break through the deep misgivings, enabling some openness and trust to come. However, being open to one person does not necessarily remove the fear of susceptibility to being taken in by charismatic people, groups and causes, or any other kind of involvement.

The most extreme form of mental control occurs when the authority is trusted completely and becomes the center of one’s identity. Sadly, society and parents insidiously put out messages from childhood that others know what’s best. Many people are deeply conditioned to expect and hope come outside agency, higher power, or person will solve their problems.

Letting go of these deep expectations or even wanting this is difficult, partially because what one is left with is oneself, and all one’s limitations. But moving past the often great disappointment that there is no ultimate authority who knows what’s best for others can allow one to be open to what others offer without fear of being taken over by them. The ability to do this is linked with self-trust.

The capacity to trust oneself has a feedback loop in it; the more you can do it, the more of it you build; likewise, self-doubt breeds more self-doubt. Once a person has been hurt and crippled in a way that deeply damages self-trust, the question is how to turn this around?

True healing can be accelerated by understanding the deep mechanisms of what happened, and of the authoritarian dynamics in general. Then people can be more confident they won’t be taken in again. Part of maturation is realizing that no person can know with certainty what is appropriate for others. By remaining the judge of what’s right for oneself, one can receive and integrate what others offer without fearing dependency.

One motive for writing this book is our belief that a deeper understanding of the dynamics and pervasiveness of authoritarian enables people to be less susceptible to it. This does involve becoming more aware, for real correlation exists between self-trust and awareness.

The person who entered the cult had great illusions that were later shattered; the person who left the cult was disillusioned, but did not fully understand or integrate what happened. Self-deception, in varying degrees, is part of the human condition. Awareness of how easy fear, need, and desire can be manipulated enhances critical intelligence.

Disillusionment itself is not the real problem. Awareness involves breaking through illusions, which, of course, is disillusioning. Often the real obstacle is being so attached to whatever emotions or meaning the illusions were feeding that letting go of the illusions feels like a loss instead of a gain.

To see how one’s previous good feelings contained illusions can be a bitter pill at first. But even though the caring and sharing in the authoritarian context were found to be mechanical and ephemeral, real caring and sharing are a needed aspect of life. The illusion lay in believing the authenticity of blind surrender and in the instant intimacy doing so offers.

Part of self-awareness is also seeing the poison and ultimate isolation of the self-defensive posture. The little voice inside that warns not to trust others is deadly. It’s the same voice that often comes after being deeply hurt in a love relationship. Its purpose is to ensure that “This will never happen again”.

Rigidly controlling against further hurt and disillusionment only closes the door to passion, but also to the possibility of living without fear of oneself. The fear is that without self-control, one would again succumb to being taken over. Such control brings conflict and internal division because something basic is being denied. A whole person is open to love, which means risking the possibility of again being taken in and hurt.

If one had truly been dis-illusioned about authoritarian relationships (that is, lost one’s illusions, rather than merely being disappointed), there is far less likelihood of falling into the same traps or becoming cynical.

Cynicism indicates one has not totally given up the illusions, but still blames others or the world for being let down. Often what is held onto are the ideals that mask authoritarianism, even though one has been disillusioned by a given leader. This is why people feel susceptible and do not trust themselves, for as long as they have unlivable ideals, they are manipulable.

It is the ideals that are the illusion, not the failures of others or oneself to live up to them. Letting go of illusions is just that-letting go of all of it, including the emotions and expectations they and their loss generate. Then one can be open to the kind of love that is not an illusion.”

~The Guru Papers

Happy Easter. May we all be resurrected in this life.


131. elena - April 12, 2009

Thanks again Whalerider. Great texts.

Just found this on the internet. Sounds good but looking deeply it looks like another cult: The first thing they ask for is money. It’s from the iep21 if you want to check it out.

What I enjoyed is that they include civil and political rights as well as freedom of speech and the Declaration of Human Rights. If these were taken seriously, all institutions in which they are violated would be legally illegal! What is also significant is everything that is left out in cults and how they shut themselves out in the fanatic obsession for the end of the world or the unreachable influence C.

These “cornerstone documents” speak profoundly to the world envisioned here. They are:

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (United Nations, 1948)
Towards a Global Ethic: An Initial Declaration (Parliament of the World’s Religions, 1993)
A Call to Our Guiding Institutions (Parliament of the World’s Religions, 1999)
The Earth Charter (Earth Council et al., 2001)


Honesty and integrity in all relations, with other individuals, communities, cultures, and nations
Human relations characterized by respect, generosity, hospitality, and personal responsibility
Harmony and equity between the genders
Freedom from war and violence and terror
Relief from global, national, and regional political disruptions and dislocations
Political leaders committed to the local and global commonweal
Religious and spiritual leaders committed to mutual respect, peace, non-violence, and cooperation between and among ethnic, racial, cultural, and religious communities


Provision of adequate shelter, food, clean water for all
Elimination of global poverty
Reduction of the gap in wealth and status between rich and poor
Promotion of good health for all
Provision of equal educational opportunity for all
Protection and promotion of civil and political rights for all
Freedom of speech and religious/spiritual belief and practice
An end to crime and corruption in society
Protection and promotion of economic and social rights for marginalized groups, especially women, children, and the poor
Relief from global, national, and regional economic disruptions and dislocations


A healthy and vibrant Earth
Respect and attention to the needs of future generations for a sustainable future
Relief from global, national, and regional ecological and resource disruptions and dislocations
Sustainable and mutually-enhancing human relations with the Earth
Respect and concern for the rights of other species and the Earth as a whole
Human production and consumption in harmony with the Earth
Human population supportable by ecological and social systems
An end to unsustainable abuse of Earth, ecosystems, and species.


To contribute to the realization of this vision, the Interreligious Engagement Project (IEP21) is committed to furthering constructive engagement between religious communities and other “guiding institutions” including government, business, education, media, science and technology, international intergovernmental organizations, and the organizations of civil society. To this end, IEP21 will work to assist global religious and spiritual communities to develop appropriate strategies for addressing critical issues relating to social and economic justice, ecological sustainability, and the promotion of cultures of peace. IEP21 will work closely with local, regional, and global religious communities and organizations to discover new modes of cooperative engagement with secular organizations and institutions in developing constructive approaches to the most critical problems now facing the planetary community. IEP21 will also work in areas including but not limited to the following:
Furthering global interreligious understanding, harmony, and cooperation;
Promoting communication and cooperation among the world’s major interreligious organizations.
Developing awareness–on the part of religious communities, groups, and organizations, as well as interreligious associations–of the critical challenges and opportunities facing the human community at the threshold of the 21st century including: human rights and social justice, ecological sustainability, sustainable development, and building cultures of peace;
Building networks of communication and cooperation between global religious communities and organizations representing various “guiding institutions”; and
Identifying and supporting–through communications and networking–creative and innovative local, regional, and global projects of service to a better world, wherever they may be located.

132. elena - April 12, 2009

“‘Economic rationality’ in the shape of neo-liberal globalisation is socially and politically suicidal. Justice and democracy are sacrificed on the altar of a mythical market as forces outside society rather than creations of it. However, free markets do not exist in a vacuum. They require a set of impartiality in government, honesty, justice, and public spiritedness in business.”
Kamran Mofid PhD (ECON)
Founder, Globalisation for the Common Good Initiative

(I didn’t share the rest of the article.)

Looks like what happened to society on a large scale happened in cults in a small scale. Macro-microcosmic mirrors of each other.

133. nigel harris price - April 12, 2009

129 whalerider

I went to church at my dad’s parish this morning. The first hymn we sang was…..

“Thine be the glory, risen conquering son” (Common Hymnal)

I am also reminded of a passage from Henry V…..

“All things be ready, if our minds be so”

Rebirth and Selfhood in Service of Humanity to you all…..Nigel.

134. nigel harris price - April 12, 2009

There are probably many who would like to post to the blogsite, but do not do so because they are fearful of reprisals. I have posted enough times and am pretty sure that FOFfers could get a hold of me if they so wished (although the trip down here to Devon might be impractical, and put them off). To those who are nearer to Apollo/Isis/Renaissance and have that fear, I would quote (yet again) from Shakspeare’s HenryV…..

“We are in God’s hand, brother, not their’s”

135. fofblogmoderator - April 12, 2009

129 is newly moderated

136. ton - April 12, 2009

re: 129 — a happy easter sun day to all…
…in essence easter is based upon ‘cosmic’ events, i.e. earth’s movement in relation to other celestial bodies — the moon and especially the ‘return’ of the sun with the vernal equinox….

137. ton - April 12, 2009

elena 131

“…Sounds good but looking deeply it looks like another cult: The first thing they ask for is money….”

i respect your cautious suspicion and know where you are coming from but how deeply did you look? money as it turns out is an essential component of almost any enterprise these days…. it all depends on how it’s used and how you choose to use it, i.e. what you choose to support with your time and energy, which is after all what ‘money’ represents. i think one pertinent question here is whether monies go to support the lavish lifestyle of a ‘guru’ at the expense of the supporters?

thanks whalerider for continuing to post installments from the ‘papers’

138. Opus111 - April 13, 2009

Elena #127

The 1623 members figure doesn’t make sense. If there are close to a thousand in the greater Fellowship and we were supposed to be little more than two thousand two years ago, it is doubtful that there are still more than a thousand

The majority of people on GF left more than 2 years ago, so all those facts – that FOF had over 2200 two years ago, that there are almost 1000 participants in GF (including a few rare ones still in) and that there are still 1623 on the FOF roster – could all be true…

Happy Easter!;

139. elena - April 13, 2009

Ton, thanks for the music, that was glorious!

Opus 111, Sorry to hear they are losing.


You can check them out if you’re interested. The little presentation I saw from them was too short and quickly asked for money which didn’t attract me but the presentation was good enough to post here. They are called interreligious engagement project.

Have a good week.

We use to love this when we were children!

140. nigel harris price - April 13, 2009

137 ton

“…..devote your labour and income to others…..” (Walt Whitman)

141. peter mac - April 13, 2009

personally id rather he said some of your income and some of your labour ……………..

142. peter mac - April 13, 2009

the guru papers selection around 130 april 12 is a good description of a victim …..victims are often be left feeling guilty with perpatrators its business as usuual…………………

143. ton - April 13, 2009

140 & 141
yes, and i do that too… but not without knowing for who and for what… it’s certainly not out of blind or slavish obedience to another greedy ‘guru’ — that was one of the difficult lessons gleaned from the fof experience.

144. veramente - April 13, 2009

130 WhaleRider
Healing Crippled Self-Trust
Thank you WR!

145. WhaleRider - April 13, 2009

“Fundamentalism and the Need For Certainty”

“To understand fundamentalism’s power as a worldwide movement it is necessary to examine its appeal. Our aim is not to merely show it to be authoritarian, an easy task. Fundamentalism is about controlling people. It can only operate in hierarchies because unchallengeability can only be passed down and enforced in this way. Those who are given or take power through its dictates, on any level of the hierarchy, have a vested interest in it.

But the appeal of fundamentalism goes even deeper because it offers certainty in an uncertain world…and the focus of fundamentalism is the salvation of the individual after death. Whether or not one believes in personal immortality, having a morality based on this belief instead of on what promotes viable life in this world in an indulgence that is no longer affordable. Humanity is not only facing the need to change, it is facing an ecological timeclock for its survival. To the extent that fundamentalism impedes change, there is good reason to oppose it.

The cultural taboo against criticizing religion exists partially because religion is looked upon, with good reason, as being beyond reason. In realms of faith, belief, or even intuition, what criteria can there be for such criticism? The truth or falsity of a given worldview may not be ultimately provable. But what can be shown is whether it is authoritarian.

Authoritarianism is present in much that is taken for granted, often including what is held by some to be sacred. The prescription that what people hold sacred should not be criticized is itself unconsciously authoritarian.

The sacred and taboo go together-in particular the taboo against challenging the sacred. In our view, the sacred is formally made sacred precisely to protect it from criticism, because it cannot stand on its own. Tolerance needs to be redefined to encourage discourse that can question the validity and viability of any belief system based upon its impact on the world (and people).”

~The Guru Papers

146. nigel harris price - April 13, 2009

141 peter mac and 143 ton

Sorry – I was VERY unspecific! I really was hinting at my creative enterprise, where I trust my students and their efforts to succeed…..Nigel.

147. nigel harris price - April 13, 2009

145 whalerider

“…and the Need for Certainty”

I think Whitman (again!) put it well, when he said “…..that the Great Play goes on and you may contribute something…..”. I have many friends who are not trying to ‘create something to survive death’, but are trudging on, knowing that it will come. Perhaps there is no need to ‘feel special’ and that this feeling special, or, at least, wanting to is some sort of magnet that draws people to fundamentalist doctrines or, at the worst, cults. I feel we should try to ‘live with the uncertainty’ that we had before the FOF and not try to be any more ‘godly’ than anyone else…..Nigel.

148. elena - April 14, 2009

Guru Papers: “The sacred and taboo go together-in particular the taboo against challenging the sacred. In our view, the sacred is formally made sacred precisely to protect it from criticism, because it cannot stand on its own. Tolerance needs to be redefined to encourage discourse that can question the validity and viability of any belief system based upon its impact on the world (and people).”

All that’s true but one sure way to get there is accepting that one cannot hold one’s own truth to any measure of rationality and THAT is ninety percent of the danger when people do walk into cults. By the time I got there I had already accepted the possibility of having someone else “guide” me and once in, separating from the negative emotions that arose from life inside took 95% of the effort. It sure was work! What I was unable to realize at the time was that as I disenabled my ability to oppose what oppressed me I allowed my will to be tampered with and my freedom or I, to be minimized keeping me in a long period of not being “good enough” but to run along with the cult current.

This chapter of the Guru Papers has, like most things, a double sword that requires one to be very careful because if we are willing to stand on the position that everything can be questioned and pulled apart, we are left with nothing to stand on repeating the same absurd process. What each one decides to stand on is up to him and her but one should be able to stand on something one is willing to live for, not just something one seems to have gotten comfortable in because that’s the way it is for many. There is no need to be a hero to be a normal human being. It is not about impossible causes that only “I” want, or any one individual; it is (for me), about the simple ideal of a fairly decent life in which a child is allowed to grow up; a teenager to chose from viable possibilities; an adult to work in that magical connection between himself and his community and in which an old man can die with dignity. Life is very simple and everyone needs those guarantees to push himself and his culture forward.

Your silence is as welcome as your voices. One cannot depend on the echo to say what one has to say no matter how beautifully the mountains return one’s voice or how harshly it repeats one’s screams. We are each a fountain of our own and every man and woman is called upon to sing their tune in their own time: A tune that no one else could ever replace. When one understands that, it is clear that there is nothing to compete with but one’s own challenge to overcome one’s fear to live fully. When one understands it fully, it is absurd to try to stop anyone from giving their selves, rather than being inspired by them. Too many people are appreciated after they are dead, as if we could not stop the habit of running behind life when it was already too late. Life springs out of every single individual with a force that has been handled only by him or her and only he or she can understand what it is telling her. It tells her things that it tells everybody like parents to their children, but does it in such a way that when he or she repeats what they heard, it is the their own truth. The life within each truth does not contradict or invalidate anybody else’s and there is no greater joy than people who have realized what they came for in their own way. No need for applause or idolatry in a time in which we’ve been taught to pay trillions to a tennis or soccer player so that they alone stand for what belongs to each one of us. The way life compensates the excesses of its people is rather strange and we seem to have to look at ideal lives in which behind the scene the player is raping teenagers unable to handle the pressure of being an idol to come to terms with a possibility of realizing our dream on much more average terms: bringing the ideal to a realizable reality in which every individual has simple, civil rights to exist.

149. elena - April 14, 2009

This page began on April 7th, the day my mother died 42 years ago. May flowers live for ever in your memory.

150. nigel harris price - April 14, 2009

148 elena

Perhaps a ‘little tribute’ to what you have become – to your mother and for yourself – “…how do YOU do that?” (as you said to me several posts ago). You have expressed YOUR truth, in YOUR way, by expressing THE truth and I hope you are appreciated for it. Love…..Nigel.

“Dishonour not thy mothers…..” (Henry V)

151. WhaleRider - April 14, 2009

I can only imagine the complexity of pain, loss and sorrow you must have felt as a child of seven losing your mother so abruptly to suicide. How could a young person ever possibly fill the silence of that vast empty space? Adequate grieving is such a monumental task, even for an adult.

Now I understand the importance of flowers, especially as memorials at funerals.

May celestial flowers live forever in her memory.

My heart goes out to you. Thank you for sharing that.

152. Mick Danger - April 14, 2009

For all pilgrims along the path: God can take a joke.
A teacher asked her students, “Does anyone know where God is?”
Everyone except Tommy loked very blank, but Tommy’s arm shot up.
“Yes Tommy, do you know?”
Yes, miss,” Tommy replied, “He’s in our bathroom.”
“How can you say that?” the teacher said, very surprised by his answer.
“Well, miss, every morning my father knocks on the bathroom door and says, “Oh Lord, are you still in there?”

153. Mick Danger - April 14, 2009

I think it is part of God’s plan & a little joke that Bobby is doomed to endlessly suck cock for the rest of his life.
Isn’t that a kick?

154. Ellen - April 14, 2009

I have it on the best authority that your mom would have sung you this song if she could have:

155. elena - April 14, 2009

A hug to you Nigel, thank you.

Whalerider, I’m not all that young! I was closer to nine when it happened, old enough to remember and I didn’t cry then but spent almost forty years trying to resuscitate her and all the mothers I’d lost before her! We’re like a shell that spends the first nine years of our lives winding what we then have to resolve for the next eighty. What seems to matter about that is the possibility of “booting” the whole experience to another level in which the magnitude of the tragedy translates into the understanding of objective reality.

Remember the song: How many roads must a man walk down before they call him a man?

What matters to me is that we, human beings, are able to conceive our individuality and very personal plays as microcosmic dramas of very objective realities and that as one brings one’s self to terms with it, one can stand responsible for lessening the tragedy of future generations instead of repeating the same unnecessary suffering time after time.

The feeling and idea that all one is, is an insignificant subjective bum is what drives people to cults and other forms of speedy annihilation. We, those in such extreme positions in society, have lost the ability to perceive objective reality and our selves objectively. We have lost it in our self and society has lost it in its practice.

The ability to look at one’s personal tragedy as well as our social ones and learn from them enough to know that some things need to be avoided for people to not fall in the same trap, requires taking responsibility for what one knows to be true, after suffering the experience. It allows one to trust why one must act in a social context even if one has no accepted social credits.

It’s my impression that whole generations of people are prone to committing suicide in our time, that the mass suicides in cults as well as the killings of furtive killers who walk out in the streets and then shoot themselves, as much as the lonely suicidal, reveal the degree to which people, huge numbers of people, feel the disconnectedness between themselves and the world they live in. What the suicide is simply stating is that there is nothing that he or she is connected to. It is not that they are crazy independent individuals who messed up their lives, it is that society is so structured that people are in fact disconnected from it. The feeling that there is nothing worth living for and that I am not worthy of being alive that suicides experience, is a valid statement and the problem is not one of lack of economic opportunities but one in which no matter the comfort, the lack of human connectedness is the main issue. It is no coincidence that it is in Sweden (?) where suicide is high.

Human contact is difficult because people tend to look at each other with the same boredom with which they hold themselves. When there’s no self-value there’s even less value for others. But “self value” is something people loose when parents and society hold no value for their people. Children are in parents way as badly as people in lower classes, racial differences, academic status or other nationalities are in the way of those eager to feel superior through such social constructs. They ignore them with the same coolness. Bringing up a family is of so little social value that parents don’t feel it’s worth investing their time on their children and children grow up by the inertia of things as abandoned within the family as teenagers and old people within the society. But adults only matter because they work, spend and support those who do matter like Bobby Burton and the STARS of the world. We’ve externalized in those STARS what we are neglecting to acknowledge within our self and each other. We spend our lives spending on “events” that glorify those who we “idealize” at the cost of diminishing our selves and those closest to us. We do this. Not just I.

What true suffering brings is the realignment and reinstatement of values as if the shock pushed one’s self back into position with the world and THE WORLD recovers its objective magnitude and profound awe. Then one remembers the I AM that one had forgotten.

156. elena - April 14, 2009

Thank you Ellen. When we met recently in the dream of the other world, she clearly expressed that on that level we are always together and there is no need to fear separation. We are only separate in this physical world and it is meant for us to learn how to come back together because we recognize our self in each other. Love is the lesson we are trying to learn! It’s the way our “absolute” gets to know itself!

157. Another Name - April 14, 2009

You’ve been pretty loose lately with the “we” and “us” and “we’ve”. How about more “I”, “me” and “myself” and more restraint when using the royal “we”. Personally, no one speaks for me, except me. Maybe it doesn’t make anyone else feel uncomfortable, so “I’m” speaking for myself.

Thanks Bruce for pointing this out….when ever people speak in we…( I love the Royal “we”, as you mentioned I get so uneasy. I want to shout….we, please check with me if I feel like “WE”.

I guess it is a lie when I use the word WE and I have not checked with the others, involved, if they are agreeing……????????

mmmmmmmm food for thought.

Glad you are all here….up to the mountains I go…Have a beautiful day.

158. ton - April 14, 2009

157 another name… it’s tuesday…. you posted:

“You’ve been pretty loose lately with the “we” and “us” and “we’ve”. How about more “I”, “me” and “myself” and more restraint when using the royal “we”. Personally, no one speaks for me, except me. Maybe it doesn’t make anyone else feel uncomfortable, so “I’m” speaking for myself.”

ya, the ‘boundary issue’ is an important factor in the gestalt of a cult survivor…. but there’s a two edged sword at play here, while each one is an individual, there is also an “US” to consider…. it’s a question of balance. another name, i hope you’ll let ‘us’ in on what you bring back from the mountain…

is ‘youth wasted on the young’ ? i don’t think so… afterall ‘we’ once were young…..

159. elena - April 14, 2009

Another Name,

There is no one more blind than he who does not want to see. What a way to pick on little things and avoid addressing the real issues behind what is being said. What a way of disregarding a hundred things and picking on others, for what? What is your purpose?

Who is stopping you from saying what you wish?

Why do you have to lean on Bruce to say what you want? Did I not already accept what he said?

What was it that you didn’t agree with that you didn’t agree with the we. Don’t be afraid of saying it, and we won’t agree, so what but picking on me because I use we or us without looking at what I’m referring to shows such shortsightedness and the kind of willingness to turn against people for the sake of turning against them without thinking about it.

I don’t think it is a lie when I use the word WE and I have not checked with you. When I use the word WE I am referring to patterns that I see in US and I have no problem if you say, I don’t have that pattern. What pattern of the many I’ve mentioned don’t you have? I’ll be delighted to know you are an exception to the rule.

Maybe you think you do not conform to the description of parents whose children grow up in the inertia of their lives? Or that you do not look at people as inferior because they belong to a different class, nationality of academic status?

We’ll be very happy to hear that you are not one of us! That is, those of us who know that there are aspects of these things that we practice faithfully almost every day and are seriously trying to move to a different understanding.

160. ton - April 14, 2009

and for the hearing impaired, poetry:

“I’m just beginning to see,
Now I’m on my way.
It doesn’t matter to me,
Chasing the clouds away.
Something calls to me.
The trees are drawing me near,
I’ve got to find out why.
Those gentle voices I hear
Explain it all with a sigh.
I’m looking at myself, reflections of my mind.
It’s just the kind of day to leave myself behind….
If you could just come with me and see the beauty of
Tuesday afternoon….
I’m just beginning to see,
Now I’m on my way.
It doesn’t matter to me,
Chasing the clouds away.
Something calls to me.
The trees are drawing me near,
I’ve got to find out why.
Those gentle voices I hear
Explain it all with a sigh.”


161. Yesri Baba - April 14, 2009

I don’t see what the big deal is. When someone says ‘we’ I just figure they got a mouse or two in their pocket.

Speaking of we- the wind in the trees is blowing our leaves.

162. nigel harris price - April 14, 2009

155 elena

Why did I survive my suicide attempt on 11 June 1989? Maybe to champion your cause on this blogsite, at first instance, to sustain and underline your beautifully expressed Truth; to say – YES, EVERYTHING YOU SAY NOW IS RIGHT AND IMPELS THE TRUE SENSE OF SELF TO ACT CORRECTLY AND WITH DIGNITY IN THIS OH!, SO DIFFICULT WORLD. I would weep without buffers, in a hypo-manic state, but I have survived a modestly high Easter period (as usual) and am now drenched in your wonderful ‘flores de te curazon’. I lost my mother to a heart-attack, when she died on holiday at the age of 83 and her passing on, thankfully, as I see now, curtailed her downward-spiral into full-blown dementia. You can ask me if I sense she is ‘looking down from her cloud’, as she used to joke about where she would go at death, and seeing me act out the Noble Principles that she tried to instil in me. I just say – “I hope so or, at least, I am working on them”. With your help, especially, dearest Elena, and that of others on this blogsite, I hope we will meet together in person and fulfil the aim of this site – to ‘wind-up’ the already faltering Fellowship of Friends…..Nigel.

163. ton - April 14, 2009

nigel, as a designer:

“final examination…. has nothing to do with etc…. it’s to do with the individual… there’s nothing in the caterpillar that tells you it is going to be a butterfly…. everybody is an astronaut…. design revolution… doing more with less…. etc”


‘poet of the soul’ — thank you again:

“The trees are drawing me near,
I’ve got to find out why.
Those gentle voices I hear
Explain it all with a sigh.”

164. nigel harris price - April 14, 2009

163 ton

Yeah, I remember the ‘tear-drop’ design shape principle from Design History Studies at Brighton College of Art (1976-79). As for doing more with less…my father cannot understand why my design-jewellery-teaching business is not making me a comfortable living YET. It is difficult to explain to a retired (comfortably) bank-manager that part of the ‘thrill’ is seeing how much crap you can take and still keep going! So, I have to do without food for a day, so that there are materials for my students. In my school, the teacher GIVES (as much as he can stand!). As I stated before, I think the most underestimated word in the English language is – DREAM.

“To dream the impossible dream…..”
“When you wish upon a star…..as dreamers do.”
“Is there a heaven? Oh, yeah. It’s the place dreams come true”

Field of Dreams (the movie) was recommended to me by my (still) commissioning friend, George Bosh – he had me make the ‘Jubail’ chalice, which led to me showing the chalice to the Chief Liturgical Designer for the Papal Commission in 1987.

P.S. I think I have answered my question (yet again) about why I was saved from an untimely death in 1989 – it was STOP on the Grand Scale of my life. The angels wanted me to stop feeding the cult and be prepared to be reduced to the mearest meagreness of my essence and fulfil my destiny in my middle-latter years.

“Maybe that is what freedom means – to fulfil one’s purpose” (I, Robot)

165. 411 - April 14, 2009


There’s a good quote from Plato towards the end of the video.

166. nigel harris price - April 14, 2009

160 ton

How did you know my computer makes me hyper-link ‘hearing impaired’? By the way, I have ‘Days of Future Passed’ on CD…..Nigel.

167. nigel harris price - April 14, 2009

I learnt a lesson about myself from my type/CofG ‘sister’, Lindsay, when we had a one-on one class at my workshop this evening. She is definitely Jovial by nature – involved with many creative activities at home and in hobby activities and, at work a Martial project manager (get the job done, I mean). She is probably in her early-thirites and has a ‘perfectionist’ streak – will not leave a project until it is achieved to gold alchemy completion. I am older (and more tired, generally) and have the need to work at things in a ’roundabout’ way until optimum achievement is gained. I feel sorry for REB with his ‘I did a see-do thing today, when I turned down the heating thermostat one degree, and I did not tell anyone’. Brilliant example to us all, Bobby Plug Ass!!!!!…..Nigel.

168. nigel harris price - April 14, 2009

Burton’s take on his own ‘Sermon on the Mount’ (and I mean mount!!!!!) – “We are all coming closer, are we not?”

Q. What is the definition of ‘brewer’s droop’?
A. Viagra falls!

169. nigel harris price - April 14, 2009

I make no apology for again repeating posting/pasting this excerpt from a child psychology book by Virginia M. Axline. I know it has touched bloggers before this but I wanted to especially give Elena another chance to see it…..Nigel.

“Dibs had had his dark moments and had lived for a while in the shadows of life. But he had had the opportunity to move out of those dark moments and discover for himself that he could cope with the shadows and sunshine in his life.

Perhaps there is more beauty and understanding in life when the glaring sunlight is softened by the patterns of shadows. Perhaps there is more depth in a relationship that has weathered some storms. EXPERIENCE THAT NEVER DISAPPOINTS OR SADDENS OR STIRS UP FEELINGS IS A BLAND EXPERIENCE WITH LITTLE CHALLENGE OR VARIATION IN COLOUR. Perhaps when we experience confidence and faith and hope that we see materialize before our eyes thus builds up within us a feeling of inner strength, courage and security.

We are all personalities that grow and develop AS A RESULT OF ALL OUR EXPERIENCES, RELATIONSHIPS, THOUGHTS, AND EMOTIONS. We are the sum total of all the parts that go into THE MAKING OF A LIFE.”

(This is the true story of a little boy named Dibs…..

He would not talk. He would not play. Judged mentally defective, he was oblivious both to other children and to his teacher; in reality he was a brilliant, lonely child trapped in a prison of fear and rage, a prison from which only he could release himself. And through psychotherapy and love, he did.)

170. ton - April 14, 2009

nige 164 – 169
“….seeing how much crap you can take and still keep going!”

ya, i went to the dentist today and had some of the boney parts in my head worked on by well-meaning folks…. in spite of good intentions and nevertheless, it hurt like hell…. and still does.

….i work with kids like ‘dibs’ most everyday…. but the adults are more difficult… that includes me:

night all…

171. ton - April 14, 2009

‘you’re definitely in it right now…’


172. WhaleRider - April 15, 2009

“Interestingly, Satan (read lower self) is also blamed for any questioning of faith. Lucifer was so named because he was the “bringer of light”, that is, reason. Lucifer is portrayed as the silver-tongued devil who uses reason to seduce people by convincing them that either evil doesn’t exist or that it’s a good thing to do.

Every sophisticated closed system of thought constructs ways of disarming challenge. This particular ploy is airtight-stating that any argument powerful enough to question faith is by definition a construction of Satan (or the lower self). What is really involved is a circular defense.

An authoritarian premise is put forth, and then and authoritarian premise from within the same system is used to make the system itself impregnable. The premise is that there is a devil who is smarter than human reason; thus human reason cannot be trusted to question the system of belief. Should one buy into this, what results is fear of one’s own intelligence. Also, making the body lowly justifies dominating it and repressing it, just as making nature lowly justifies exploiting it.

Worship involves awe. Significantly, what brings awe is a sense of being in touch with a greater or unknown power. So it is possible to worship, nature, beauty, a guru, a ruler, as well as a deity.

Since worship alone generates the feelings, whether the power actually exists or not does not make a difference. The object, force, person or abstraction, whatever it is that is being worshipped is so necessarily perceived that whenever the person either physically or mental contacts it, emotions change. This is often accompanied by a state of surrender that has its own (hypnotic) emotional field.

Worship is not simply a one-directional activity where there is output from the worshipper, and that’s it. What loops back are feelings of participating in, and identifying with, a higher power, which translates into feeling more powerful oneself. If worshipping had no effect on how the worshipper felt, worship would not be long-lived. It is in large part the change in emotion that verifies and reinforces the belief that the object or idea being worshiped both exists and deserves it.

There are many worldly benefits of aligning with an accepted higher power that has specific rules for living flowing from it. The two key ones that are not unrelated are certainty and power. Certainty about what’s right and true can be used to direct or manipulate those less certain, and to justify coercion, as well as eliminate internal conflict.

The battle between an irreproachable God and an evil Satan (or higher vs. lower self) creates a symbol system that polarizes thoughts and behavior into moral compartments that people can only fit into by denying essential parts of themselves.

The ensuing struggle, as the denied or suppressed aspects seek some kind of expression, necessarily breeds self-mistrust and self-condemnation. From self-mistrust, people look to an authority to find out how to be. This makes controlling them easy.”

~The Guru Papers

173. Panoritsa - April 15, 2009

411 on 414 (will I ever stop seeing keys and numbers and divine intervention in just common things???)

Thank you for the visual statement.

Related to the way propaganda works, the other day I was to witness the most hilarious scene. Two of my pupils decided to give a power- point presentation on one of the most popular groups in history: The Beatles…

Me-pleased with their choice and quality of work-sat back to enjoy the ride…

Good, thorough research, nice images, good choice of expressions, good interaction with the class…they were fine as expected…

Then, the presentation’s direction took another turn… After the facts and dates and love affairs of Paul, George, John and Ringo, the two boys started talking about Paul’s car accident and the theory that the person who walks around the globe now calling himself Paul McCartney is a look-alike who took over after Paul’s fatal accident…

I looked at the wall full of facts with a smile and then…They started “keying”…They started presenting us with all facts to support that theory… They “keyed” every single album of the group after 1967 (and the year I was born here…), they played many songs backwards to show us that if we listened carefully we could hear messages in the lyrics…”…Paul died..”

It was hilarious! There I was, in front of two 15 year-old bright boys who were “keying” images like the Burton’s notorious meetings…

It was a good effort, but the 24 pupils who were attending the presentation, were not persuaded… I am very proud of them. They are no “school material”…

Do not forget to enjoy Spring!

174. Yesri Baba - April 15, 2009

Just off the AP wire-


Fellowship of Friends Plan Participation in Teabagging.

A spokesman for the FOF, Assif Liquoor, said in a press release today that the Fellowship membership will be participating in solidarity with the republican party in the teabagging protest on April 15th. Assif, the mouth for Fellowship leader Robert Burton, was choked up as he spoke to the reporter. “Even though we don’t pay taxes it is still hard to swallow, he said.” The Ass continued: “Burton knows what it is like to lose funds these days and he is a bit down in the mouth and some teabagging is just the thing to give him a lift.”

When asked what Burton thought of the statements by senator Dick Army, Mr Liquoor replied, “Burton is a big fan of Dick Army. He agrees that this is pointing toward the end but we are just at the tip. We will be getting the shaft over and over until it all blows up.”

“Burton sends his love to the seamen saved earlier this week” Assif added.

When asked if the members will be joining the larger protests in the area Assif replied, “No, we will keep it a private teabagging event followed by an Apollo circle jerk, an Acadamy clusterfuck and some communal chubbie huffing and wash it down with some golden showers.”

175. Yesri Baba - April 15, 2009


Academy clusterfuck should be Galleria gumby gobble. My bad.

176. nigel harris price - April 15, 2009

To Elena – from the library I inherited from my maternal grandfather, James Laugh Wallace……….

“Is there for honest poverty,
That hangs his head, and a’ that!
The coward slave, we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a’ that!
For a’ that, and a’ that,
Our toils obscure, and a’ that;
The rank is but the guinea’s stamp,
The man’s the gowd for a’ that!

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin gray, and a’ that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine,
A man’s a man for a’ that!
For a’ that, and a’ that,
Their tinsel show, and a’ that;
The honest man, though e’er sae poor,
Is king o’ men for a’ that!

Ye see yon birkie ca’d a lord,
Wha struts, and stares, and a’ that;
Though hundreds worship at his word,
He’s but a coof for a’ that;
For a’ that, and a’ that,
His riband, star, and a’ that,
The man of independent mind,
He looks and laughs at a’ that.

A prince can make a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, and a’ that;
But an honest man’s aboon his might,
Guid faith he mauna fa’ that!
For a’ that, and a’ that,
Their dignities, and a’ that,
The pith o’ sense, and pride o’ worth,
Are higher rank than a’ that.

Then let us pray that come it may –
As come it will for a’ that –
That sense and worth, o’er a’ the earth,
May bear the gree, and a’ that.
Fro a’ that, and a’ that,
It’s coming yet, for a’ that,
That man to man, the world o’er,
Shall brothers be for a’ that!

(by Robert Burns, Scotland’s National Poet)

177. nigel harris price - April 15, 2009

Pardon my ‘ro-or’ mispelling, Rabbie!…..Nigel.

178. Ellen - April 15, 2009

For a bit of intellectual spice: Itzhak Bentov, author of “Stalking the Wild Pendulum”.


179. elena - April 15, 2009

Thank you very much Nigel. Please send anything else you have for me to tabluttatgmail.com so that we let others find what they have to say!

180. sallymcnally - April 15, 2009

172: Whalerider: Thanks for putting up the pages from ‘The Guru Papers’. It has had a profound effect in the past on people in realigning their thinking regarding the FOF organization and how damaging it can be to stay within its invisible walls, or keeping a belief system as ones only point of reference as this paragraph explains:

‘Every sophisticated closed system of thought constructs ways of disarming challenge. This particular ploy is airtight-stating that any argument powerful enough to question faith is by definition a construction of Satan (or the lower self). What is really involved is a circular defense.’

I don’t think we were ever meant to not challenge ourselves and our beliefs as it helps us grow spiritually, emotionally and intellectually.

181. elena - April 15, 2009
182. sallymcnally - April 15, 2009
183. Mick Danger - April 15, 2009

174 & 175
You forgot that Bobby likes getting “rear ended” so he will probably die one way or another. Ain’t that an image to behold?
(Not intended to discourage fellatio).

184. WhaleRider - April 15, 2009

I hear if you get rear ended you can get whiplash.

185. Mick Danger - April 15, 2009

Yeah man, WhaleRider.
Since no one escapes the consequesnces of their actions I am sure that an ironic ending is in store for the Princess.
And I hope it comes soon.
And he who laughs last, laughs best.

186. James Mclemore - April 15, 2009

182. sallymcnally

Thank you. She is wonderful.

187. brucelevy - April 15, 2009

Some home town kids and a proud papa (Alela’s) on lead in Brussels.

188. nigel harris price - April 15, 2009

179 elena

“Let the woman take care of you…..” (don’t know who wrote this) but I will be guided by you…..Nigel.

189. The FOFion - April 16, 2009

Smiles Predict Who Will Become Ex-Students

Editor’s Note: This comes from a “real” news item — but it’s been rewritten for the FOFion…


NEW YORK (ARK) — If you want to know whether one of your close friends will survive the school and remain on track to be a Man No. 5 or better, take a look at their yearbook photos.

Psychologists have found that how much people smile in old photographs can predict their later success in doing the work and reaching a higher level of consciousness.

In one test, the researchers looked at people’s college yearbook photos, and rated their smile intensity from 1 to 10. None of the people who fell within the top 10 percent of smile strength had left the school, while within the bottom 10 percent of smilers, almost one in four had “listened to the ‘I’s” and left the school, the researchers say. (Scoring was based on the stretch in two muscles: one that pulls up on the mouth, and one that creates wrinkles around the eyes.)

In a second trial, the research team asked people over age 65 to provide photos from their childhood (the average age in the pictures was 10 years old). The researchers scored each person’s smile, and found that only 11 percent of the biggest smilers had left the school, while 31 percent of the frowners had experienced an overwhelming need to listen to their instinctive centres, give in to feminine dominance, believe the ‘I’s, and abandon their work.

Overall, the results indicate that people who frown in photos are five times more likely to leave the school than people who smile.

While the connection is striking, the researchers stress that they can’t conclude anything about the cause of the correlation.

“Maybe smiling represents a positive disposition towards cults,” said study leader Matthew Hertsalot, a university psychologist. “Or maybe smiling people attract other happier people, and the combination may lead to a greater likelihood of long-lasting compartmentalized thinking. We don’t really know for sure what’s causing it, but people who smile more just don’t care about the overwhelming evidence that’s right in front of them — that they’ve joined a cult.”

Hertsalot said he has considered other explanations, such as the possibility that people who smile more often tend to attract more friends, and a larger support network makes it easier to casually look the other way when uncomfortable truths are placed in front of them. Or it could be that people who smile when a photographer tells them to are more likely to have obedient personalities, which could make staying in a cult and believing a delusional cult leader a lot easier.

The results of the study fit into a larger pattern of research that has found many personality characteristics can be determined from very thin slices of behavior. Basically, we often reveal ourselves in the most subtle, simple ways.

And smiling in photographs has been shown to be correlated with a number of traits, including a generally happier disposition when you hear how the cult leader is coercing numerous followers for sex, and how he uses fear to compel his followers to never leave the cult — both classic examples of the typical malignant narcissism of many cult leaders.

“I think [our results] go along with a lot of the literature that’s been coming out over the last five to 10 years, which shows that positive emotionality is incredibly important to a cult leader’s agenda,” Hertsalot said, “which is to maintain control over his followers despite everything that he’s doing. My advice? Well, don’t stop smiling. Don’t worry, be happy, make efforts — but please make sure those efforts involve critical thinking and common sense.”

190. elena - April 16, 2009

Nigel, how much would I have to pay you to guide you?

Thanks Sally, that was fun!

191. James Mclemore - April 16, 2009

189. The FOFion

Your reporting is just superb.

192. elena - April 16, 2009

I’ve been thinking about why I use we and think one of the reasons is that the things I want to talk about are not about other people doing things but including myself amongst the things we do.

I am not interested in the detached analysis of human behaviour in which professionals speak about others as if they were separate from them, especially when I am questioning aspects of our behaviour.

I realize that this is not welcome amongst you. Maybe it comes closer to home than you enjoy. If it has the effect of asking yourself whether that is a reality that you share then I am satisfied with the use of it. If it’s not about you, good, I don’t say the things I say as an attack other wise I would not include myself. There are sides of it though that I’ll be happy to be more careful with, not just the “we” but aspects of my self that need pruning. You would be so much more helpful if you carried some love but bothering to even read is lovable enough and if you don’t even know the wonders of calling people by their name or acknowledging more than the yellow lines of the highway, I’ll know better where you’re coming from.

Since, besides the “I don’t like that you use this term” there are no better explanations on why not to use it, I will probably continue to use it without the aim of annoying anyone nor the hope of pleasing you. We are way beyond that. I mean, I’m beyond that. There was hope but running out of hope is equally valid. “When God closes a door he opens a window” goes the saying and that’s how it feels with emotions. One lets go of something like hope and something else takes its place.

One of the pleasures of writing is writing: It does not express what I already know, it teaches me to know what I express. The act has a power of its own. It puts out here something that is in there of which I have been a witness. Once out here it restructures the world to fit itself with or without my help. I need to look at it and I’m very pleased to watch it flowering, even without water.

Were ideas not to flourish they would be like seeds that never opened. But behind the idea there is a reality and it is that reality what carries the growth. An idea is not an intellectual construct. The idea is the seed of reality but not reality. Words are bridges from spirit to spirit and the fact that people take time to cross them does not mean the bridge has not been extended. Bridges that are later used for crossing beyond the beyond.

Nigel hon, there are forms of love that we can no longer indulge in and forms of lack of love that we can no longer indulge in. Pacing yourself because you are aware of the whole is as necessary as acting because you are aware of the detail. Your love feeds me beautifully but if I allow it to deplete you it will ruin us both. Use all your courage to trust your self more fully and act practically on that trust. You’re no fool. Thank you again for your multiple expressions of support. Keep putting fire into what inspires us, not me, then you’ll flower as beautifully as the rest of us!

193. One from the fence - April 16, 2009

192.One of the pleasures of writing is writing: It does not express what I already know, it teaches me to know what I express

she said something good, there.

194. Ellen - April 16, 2009

FoFion, #189
I’m smiling!
Uh, and what does that mean?

195. peter - April 16, 2009

193 – fancy person

Thanks for your ‘daily card’.

You must have learnt something
from Robert Burton. Like you he
is also an 
expert in this kind of

Be real.

196. elena - April 16, 2009

Thank you One from the Fence, I’m glad you heard it!

197. Jomo Piñata - April 16, 2009

195/peter, I think you missed what was going on in 193. Fence was quoting elena’s 192 with appreciation.

198. Mick Danger - April 16, 2009

Is 18.7% too much?
I’m glad I have a “good” chief feature.
As that jolly old fat man used to say: “T-R-A-M-P”.

199. elena - April 16, 2009

200. ton - April 16, 2009

199 that’s gay

201. elena - April 16, 2009

Maybe you like that one better!

202. ton - April 16, 2009

imo, ‘american jazz’ should have some ‘color’ —

203. The FOFion - April 16, 2009

FOF Plans Book-Burning Bonfire: ‘The Guru Papers’ Banned

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — Citing a growing impatience with students who seek outside guidance, Fellowship of Friends CEO Robert Burton has banned The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power from the FOF. Any student caught buying the book, reading it, or discussing it will be promptly kicked out of the school.

“I’ve had it,” Burton said Thursday. “Don’t buy the Guru Papers, and don’t even discuss the Guru Papers. It’s just feminine dominance.”

Some outside observers — many of them referred to as “ex-students” — believe the move just brings even more attention to the book and evokes curiosity.

“The move is backfiring,” said one woman, who asked to remain anonymous. “The more you mention the title, The Guru Papers, the worse it will be for Burton. Pretty soon, everyone in the cult will be talking about The Guru Papers, and wondering why Burton has banned The Guru Papers. They’ll read The Guru Papers just out of curiosity alone. I’m sure they’re already saying to themselves, ‘Oh, no wonder he banned The Guru Papers.’ So I think it’s not a wise move on Burton’s part.”

The Guru Papers has received added attention in recent weeks from the impressive efforts of a person call WhaleRider, who many believe is a secret agent. WhaleRider has posted numerous excerpts from the book on The Blog recently — and each excerpt is profoundly relevant to Burton and the FOF.

“I’m fairly sure WhaleRider is a spy, either for MI6 or the CIA,” one observer said. “I bet he even looks like Daniel Craig — the most recent James Bond incarnation — but it’s all rumor. No one has seen the guy.”

The Fellowship is planning The Bonfire for Saturday night on the top of “the mountain”, which is really a small hill. Robert has asked that people bring marshmallows — and wieners.

“We do have a conundrum, though,” Burton said Thursday. “I mean, if people are bringing copies of Guru Papers to the bonfire, that means they’ve acquired copies of The Guru Papers. And you know what, maybe they even read The Guru Papers. And if they read the Guru Papers, that means they’ve been discussing The Guru Papers with someone. So should I kick them out right then and there for buying, reading, and discussing The Guru Papers? It’s a very good question.”


Editor’s Note: For those interested in acquiring a copy of the “The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power”, go to the library for a free copy. You can also read portions of it online or buy it online here:


The book was written by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad.

Correction: Before this article went to press, our sources told us the Fellowship was not REALLY planning a bonfire for this Saturday, but we’re sure The Guru Papers won’t be the topic of Sunday’s meeting.

204. ton - April 16, 2009

thanks again fofian

“You don’t have to burn books to destroy a culture, just get people to stop reading them.”
—Ray Bradbury

205. ton - April 16, 2009

with apologies for the ‘fortune cookie wisdom’

206. Yesri Baba - April 16, 2009

“Robert has asked that people bring marshmallows — and wieners.”

Higher (good) Yesri: “See Yesri, that is how someone with class does a dick joke.”

Lower (evil) Yesri: “Fuck that shit! If I am going to do a dick joke it is going to have a big fat juicy cock in it.”

207. ton - April 16, 2009

good yesri + evil yesri =
bring marsmallows, big fat juicy cocks, er wieners and of course your copy of ‘the guru papers’

208. ton - April 16, 2009

207 should have included”
“Robert has asked… etc”
ha ha
what a joke
thanks again yesri

209. WhaleRider - April 16, 2009

Sorry again for the delay. Here’s the YouTube version.

Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, Part 1& 2

210. nigel harris price - April 17, 2009

I am a little tired and not too ‘writerly’ at the present time – business is good, but wearing – so thought I would borrow this from W B Yeats….

“What matter if I live it all once more?
Endure that toil of growing up;
The ignominy of boyhood; the distress
Of boyhood changing into man;
The unfinished man and his pain
Brought face to face with his own clumsiness;”

(A Dialogue of Self and Soul)

211. Ellen - April 17, 2009

Thanks, WhaleRider for your efforts. The Guru Papers and the video amongst the latest.

Hi Moderator,
I had a curiosity to wonder how many hits, for example, this page has had. Is it possible for you to breakout the blog stats? What does that number at the top refer to? This page or all 70? Or something inbetween? Are we just feeding ourselves here or are there really silent trolls? Just wondering.
35 views of video #I and 27 views of video #II was simply a small reality check.

212. nigel harris price - April 17, 2009

Had a chance to go through the “Ipsa Res Loquitor” section (see above, right) and found this post concerning the Troy Buzbee case against Burton et al. of FOF Inc., which offers some pertinence to the subject matter of “The Guru Papers” (thanks to Whalerider) and may be a ‘feast’ not necessarily just food for thought…..Nigel.

“Within the pages of the case are facts and details concerning sexual and perverted acts practiced by Burton, his philosophies and ideologies expected of the members.”
According to the case, Robert Burton, “The Teacher”, as referred to by members, began the corporation Fellowship of Friends in 1971.

The “Fourth Way philosophy is taught and practiced by the Fellowship of Friends. The location of The Fellowship of Friends herein referred to as the F.O.F. is in Oregon House, however the F.O.F. refers to their location rather as “The Renaissance”.

Troy Buzbee’s father became a member of the F.O.F. in 1976. Richard Buzbee’s son Troy was only seven years of age. Richard Buzbee was told that if he paid his teaching payments each month and followed the tasks and suggestions of the teacher, Robert Burton that he would
enter “the way,” become “conscious” and “immortal.” He was told that Burton was a “conscious being” and that he was “celibate.” He was told that he could trust Burton completely with his body and soul.

From 1976 through May 1994 Troy’s father was a member of the Fellowship of Friends. As Plaintiff Troy Buzbee grew up he regarded Robert Burton as a God.
According to the case distinction between Burton and Troy’s father were not clear to him at times. Troy Buzbee became a member on October 10, 1966 when he was 17 years of age, virgin.

After Defendant Burton and Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC’s factual representations and undue influence caused Troy Buzbee to lose his ability to think independently, he became increasingly subject to the domination, control and undue influence practiced, implemented, and used by said Defendants.

In direct consequence of such deception, coercive persuasion, brainwashing and undue influence, Defendant Burton used Troy Buzbee, among hundreds of
other young men, for the partial gratification of his satyriasis, an uncontrollable compulsion to engage in sexual conduct with scores, if not hundreds, of men. In addition thereof, Defendant Burton exploited Troy Buzbee for the provision of cheap labor, well under the minimum

Said exploitation continued off and on until the time when Troy Buzbee terminated his membership with Fellowship of Friends, Inc., in August 1994.

Commencing in December 1986, Burton, would have “teaching dinners” during which he would ply Troy with alcoholic beverages. After one particular such meal in December 1986, Burton instructed Troy to come to Burton’s room and to shut and lock the door. Burton told Troy that
Burton was “an angel in a man’s body”, and the gods wished for Troy to be close to Burton. Defendant Burton then held in an embrace.

Defendant Burton said, “influence C wishes you to be close with me. “He repeatedly assured Troy that his “soul was not (his) body, and that the angels wished for (Troy) to be with (Burton).” Burton explicitly told Troy that the “angels” wanted Troy to disrobe, and the “angels” wanted Troy to submit to Burton’s sexual advances because Burton himself was an “angel”, a goddess in a man’s body.”

Burton said to Troy, “I promise you I am an angel in a man’s body.” “You have to remember that I did not write the play about Robert Burton.” Burton would kiss Troy on the forehead which he said represented the seat of the soul and then instruct Troy to “separate” from his body and just “let go”. Burton reminded Troy that Troy’s
body would soon decay while his soul was immortal.

Burton told Troy that he would talk to him after he died using the same soft voice he used at the time. Burton explained that for him the interaction with Troy went beyond conventional sex and into “supersex”, which was a
method characterological evolution.

Defendant Burton stated, “My
sexuality is on the level of Super-Sex.” From December ‘86–April ‘94, Troy submitted to Burton’s demands, which were: Drop out of college, provide Burton with sexual favors and provide hour long massages after Burton had been sexually serviced.

Burton used money from the corporation to pay other members for performing specific sexual acts. In denominations of $50 or $100.

The case mentions one case of “specific sexual acts” performed on Burton by Karl Feldman, Troy Buzbee’s best friend. Burton spoke openly about his sexuality in the form of jokes at the all-male dinners that he would often lavishly host at all-male, all-you-can-drink “symposiums.” He would boast that “one hundred boys would not be enough(for his sexual appetite).”

Troy worked at the gatehouse on F.O.F. property. Burton directed certain members who are “guards” to arm themselves with firearm-type weapons. Burton then had him become his “personal” guard. During the next four years Troy observed numerous men in Burton’s room in a single night. Troy was asked to massage Burton after his lovers left.

According to the case, Burton suffers from sexually transmitted diseases. He made no effort to tell Troy. As a consequence, Troy acquired viral herpes. In addition, Troy suffered from stomach ulcers.

Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Inc. was built as a bomb-
shelter in obeisance to Defendant Burton’s prophecies regarding massive and wide-spread disaster and chaos in the near future.

Defendant Burton uses Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Inc as his alter ego in the same way he uses Defendant Fellowship Of Friends, Inc.

According to the case…..
At all times mentioned herein Defendants Girard Haven, Abraham Goldman (also an attorney), Helga Ruth Mueller, and Clair Bowen were members of the board of directors of the Defendant corporation, Fellowship Of Friends, INC.

At all times mentioned herein all of the Defendants were acting as the agents and servants of each other and in doing the acts complained of acted within the scope of their agency and employment and at the direction and with the knowledge and ratification of the other Defendants.

The Defendant Burton at all times mentioned herein, dominated, influenced, and controlled, and does now dominate, influence and control the Defendant corporations and the directors and officers thereof, as well as the business, property and affairs of the Defendant corporations.

At all times mentioned herein, there existed and does now exist, a unity of interest and ownership between the Defendant Burton and the Defendant corporations; the individuality and separateness of said Defendant and Defendant corporations has ceased; and despite
knowledge of these facts, Defendant corporations and its officers and directors have had notice of acquiesced in and agreed, consented to, and ratified the conduct of Defendant Burton as herein alleged,

At all times since its corporation to the present time, the Defendant corporations have been and are now a mere shell and naked framework which the Defendant Burton has used and does now use as a conduit for the conduct of his personal business, property and affairs.

Defendant corporations are subject to a unity of control, and its corporate structure was created as an attempt to avoid payment of taxes and civil judgments and to confuse courts and those seeking redress for these Defendant’s acts. Due to the unity of personnel, commingling of assets, and commonality of business objectives, these Defendant’s attempts at separation of Defendant corporations and
Defendant Burton should be disregarded.

Defendant Robert Burton directs, controls and operates Defendant corporations and uses them to enforce his orders and carry out his attacks on groups, agencies or individuals, including the acts against Troy alleged herein, to the extent there is no separate identity between Burton and said Defendant corporations and any claim of such separate identity should be disregarded.

The Defendant corporations were created and are being continued and maintained pursuant to a fraudulent plant, scheme and device, created and operated by the Defendant Burton, whereby the benefits and
product of the income and revenue of the Defendant corporations are diverted to the use and enjoyment of the Defendant Burton through the Defendant corporations to himself while concealing the truth of his financial relationship with Defendant corporations.

Prior to the formation of F.O.F. and Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Burton formed a conspiracy in concert between the corporations for the express purpose and intent of developing and implementing a plan and scheme which would permit Burton and co-conspirators to:

a. use, abuse and exploit the fiduciary relationship between the Defendant Burton and the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC,, on one hand and the members of and contributors to the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC,, on the other hand
for their own personal unlawful gain; and

b. to use, abuse and exploit the fiduciary relationship between the Defendant Burton, as ‘founding minister’, and selective members of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., for the express purpose and intent of performing unlawful and perverted sexual acts upon the persons of said members, including Troy, and by causing certain of the members, including Troy, to work for Defendant corporation Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, INC.,

and Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC.

That all times pertinent hereto, the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., and the Defendant Renaissance Vineyard and Winery, INC, were formed and operated by Burton and said other Defendants for their sole and exclusive aggrandizement and to create an ambiance of neo-religious import which was and is currently being used by Burton and the other Defendants to manipulate, unduly influence, and control the minds, bodies, and the assets of the members of the Defendant
corporations for the sole and exclusive purpose of 1) satisfying Burton’s satyriasis-his voracious appetite for perverted sexual pleasure and elegant life-style; and

2) diverting the contributions and donations of the membership to their own use and purposes.

Members of the Fellowship are required to donate ever-increasing sums of money as they become further and further vested as members of the Fellowship with the caveat that when donations required of them are
not timely and completely made their membership is either revoked or they become indentured servants of the Defendant corporation in residence at its principal place of business for nominal compensation and required to perform degrading menial tasks of a full-time basis
at the whim and caprice of the Defendant Burton

and other authorized representatives of the corporate Defendant Fellowship Of Friends, INC., and Defendant Renaissance Vineyard And Winery, INC.

All donations made by members of the Fellowship are devoted either to the continuing worldwide recruitment of new and replacement members with fresh money to contribute to “the cause,” or the acquisition of assets, including but not limited to, Defendant Renaissance Vineyard and Winery, INC,

which are ostensibly being acquired for the use and
benefit of the membership but which are in reality being acquired for the personal benefit and aggrandizement of Defendant Burton and some or all of the other individual Defendants named herein.

Meanwhile, Defendant Burton annexes free and unfettered use and enjoyment in and to the assets of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., Defendant corporation Renaissance Vineyard And Winery, INC., and the benefits to be derived there from, including, but not limited to, the provision money for bribes to young male members to prostitute themselves in an intensification of
Defendant Burton’s compulsion and demand for sexual servicing of his long-standing state of satyriasis.

The entire, purpose, scope and extent of the aforesaid plan and scheme as implemented by said Defendants is to effectively deny the members of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., not only the right to participate in its rituals and teachings on an ongoing basis but also, and of equal importance, to deny members of said Defendant corporation, including Plaintiff, of their just right to participate as beneficiaries entitled to use and enjoy
the property of said Defendant corporation.

Troy suffered from fright, horror, grief, shame, anger, humiliation, embarrassment, chagrin, disappointment, worry, self-loathing, self-betrayal and self distrust.

Haven, Goldman Mueller, Bowen knew of all these afore-mentioned practices of Burton.

They have agreed and abetted Burton in his efforts. They knew of Burton’s diseases and said nothing.

At all times pertinent hereto, Defendant Burton, and the other Defendants, caused Troy’s mental and emotional centers to become deceptively and coercively inculcated with the following tenets:

a. Defendant Burton communicated with “C-influence” which was provided by “44 angels” which were each individually named including, but not limited to, Jesus, “Benjamin Franklin,” “Lincoln” and “Bach,”

and that Burton was the Fellowship’s only connection with
said “angels.”

b. Defendant was and is the most important person on the planet since Christ.

Defendant Burton claims a numerology of consciousness where he has already advanced to a man number 7.3, with Christ being a man number 8.

Burton is above man-made laws, a moral law unto himself.

c. “C-influence” brought Troy to the Fellowship and Defendant Burton, and that Troy’s interactions with Defendant Burton would be the most important relationship that Troy could ever have.

d. Defendant Burton is assisted by “C-influence” to guide the spiritual evolution of the member “students” with “shocks” designed to help them “awaken”.

e. The members of the Fellowship are special, and set apart by higher forces for survival. Members of Defendant Burton’s “inner circle” must associate only among Fellowship members must disregard non-members, and demonize ex-members who are critical of Burton whom “the =gods” will “destroy.”

Such ex-members’ opportunities for growth and
development are terminated failing to submit to Burton.

f. Defendant Burton possesses gift of prophecy that is infallible.

g. In 1998 California will “fall” in huge earthquake whereupon people will die in massive numbers.

h. In 2006 there will be an Armageddon, where all humans everywhere except for members of the Fellowship will be expunged by higher forces.

i. Members of the Fellowship will inherit the world’s material goods and act as the “Ark” for a new civilization based on that of the Greeks of about 450 B.C., and are thus presently preparing themselves to bear the torch of civilization now and in the future.

j. By following Defendant Burton’s directives so as to gain “being” (depth of character) through separating from suffering and immersing themselves in culture, mostly Western art, classical music, opera and ballet, Fellowship members, including Troy, are preparing themselves
for being the “Ark”.

k. Everything the members of the Fellowship, including Troy, had learned since birth was “false” and caused him to exist in a kind of “waking sleep.”

The Defendant Burton informed Troy that in order
to “awaken”, he had to replace what was “false” with what was “true” which was defined as the system of ideas as The Fourth Way, including all the “new” knowledge that Burton had added to that system.

l. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that without “C-influence” Troy could not “awaken”.

m. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that to “awaken” was the only way to avoid having the purpose of his life be to provide “food for the moon.”

n. Defendant Burton stated, and states, that Troy’s people outside the group as “life-people,” he said were “tragedies.” Burton said Troy’s own mother was such a “life-person” and that the Fellowship was Troy’s “real” family and Burton was his “Father.”

o. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that any challenge to the extent of Burton’s excesses of greed and satyriasis to be a lack of understanding of his practice of “crazy wisdom” which he asserts that he must force himself to perform is forcing himself to live that way for the good of the members as a “lesson.”

213. elena - April 17, 2009
214. Another Name - April 17, 2009

I have wondered about this too…..often same people who are on the blog. Then I remembered that a student told me a while ago that she had gone on the blog, to read it. Then I realized again, it is worth to write on the blog for so called “new comers”.

Every student finding this blog can be such an eye opener, a purging, devastation, sadness and healing. It was for me. I still google the fellowship of friends for my other 450 -1600 friends, and check the blog on and of. Why? Yes it is a good question, I wonder. I do not want anybody to join without knowing the whole story. I hope to prevent so much suffering for other people? At least to help them have a more open/honest choice….when I write this I still ponder is this worth my time? Obviously yes, as I am still writing now!

Or as kid said

“The answer is never the answer. What’s really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you’ll always be seeking. I’ve never seen anybody really find the answer — they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.”

It is spring maybe many of us are busy planting a garden?

My new aims for the future is
a. Having fun
b. Listen to good news. Love good news, so bring it on, my friends?

Hug and a deep exhalation and joy…and many mysteries, flowers on your path

215. Panoritsa - April 17, 2009

Is Anyone Out There?

216. nigel harris price - April 17, 2009

Here’s a visceral image which may shock some bloggers…..

In 1992 I was living at the house of a ‘Buddhist practitioner’ and his mother and was told this little gem when I asked him if he knew what dying was like…..

“The soul drops the body at death just like the body takes a dump when it needs to” (paraphrase)…..Nigel.

217. nigel harris price - April 17, 2009

Here’s another ‘Res Ipsa Loquitor’ post I found…..

Misdiscription and Willfull Misconduct (among others)

Why was it essential for FOF-style evolution that Isis/Apollo/Renaissance be preserved as the seat of squalid, deeply entrenched poverty over decades? How can anyone in their right mind think Isis lifestyle is or ever was actually good for their children, YOUR children? How much more time out of your brief lifetime are you willing to throw away, your precious time bleeding away like good money after bad, because waking up from the FOF dream is just too unthinkable? When do the wives realize that their hubbies didn’t just have a few isolated experiences of sex with RB, but still do it every time they go to a wine cellar dinner? When does the young newlywed realize how at-risk she is of a nasty sexual disease from that gorgeous RB-boy import she snagged? When do we stop being mad and just become sad, because it is all too sad and pathetic and soul-sucking? Maybe that’s the whole question: RB sucked a lot of cocks, but what about the souls, your souls, that he continues to suck and suck…and suck?

218. nigel harris price - April 17, 2009

Res Ipsa Loqitor (3)

So, expensive clothes and furnishings is just one (questionable) way to get high, and not the cheapest. But it happens to be Teacher’s way of lifestyle, so he invented a “tool” to make it look like the “only” way.

219. nigel harris price - April 17, 2009

Here’s one from the master of “The Guru Papers”…..

Emotional Distress (not in the list above)

In layman’s terms, if you want to keep members of a group in line, you create an environment of anticipated reward, not actual reward, such as in the next lifetime or reserved exclusively for those in the ‘inner circle’, as well an environment highly sensitive to the aversive stimuli of negative emotions, which is how we learn ‘good-awake’ (=positive emotion) from ‘bad-asleep’ (=negative emotion). This will produce more dopamine in the member’s brains and inhibit learning from aversion by minimizing it.


220. nigel harris price - April 17, 2009

I will end my evening’s copy-and-pastes from ‘Res Ipsa Loquitor’ by magically bringing back an ‘old friend’ from my London Centre days…..

Outrageous Conduct, Emotional Distress

From the ‘fact’ of multiple lifetimes, to the ‘fact’ that people who leave the Fellowship of conditional “Friends” are ‘food for the moon’, to the ‘fact’ that Burton is at a ‘higher level’ than anyone else on the planet, to the ‘fact’ that Beloved Teacher is the necessary intermediary between a student and higher forces, only able to ‘progress’ through Burton’s intervention, to the ‘fact’ that Burton is a goddess trapped in a man’s body (!), to the ‘fact’ that the Sequence represents the highest product of ‘higher schools’ stretching back to prehistoric times…

and on and on and on…

All designed to put one in the classic bind. No way out but to swallow and take a big gulp of “faith”, and watch one’s conscience shrivel away, a sacrifice to Burton, the gift he demands so one can stay safe in his shadow, nestling like chicks under his wings. But unlike real chicks, which must grow and fledge, choosing to stay chicks forever.

16/201/Ames Gilbert

221. Tatyana - April 17, 2009

Current fofer sent me this:
“The arguments brought forth in the “Guru Papers,” (the excerpt of which I read from your other e-mail) do not necessarily provide a criteria for determining a false guru, teacher, etc…, because there is no way to show that they wouldn’t apply to a real teacher. The point is that you could have a real teacher and his students acitng exactly the same as a false teacher and his students, and in that case how would you be able to tell a real from a false teacher. There needs to be another way, apart from the form of the teaching, which includes roles and behavior patterns of both teacher and students, to determine the truth of falsity.”

I guess I am stupid, but I just don’t know what to say… help?

222. Kid Shelleen - April 17, 2009


We simply believe what we want to believe. There is nothing to say. I was there once myself.

223. nigel harris price - April 17, 2009

221 tatyana

Some people ‘live and are’ form. Others live the Lives of their True Selves, without need of form. Does that work for you? Oc-cult or no-cult…..Nigel.

224. Yesri Baba - April 17, 2009

221 Tatyana

Sounds like you are corresponding with that tard DC. You can argue with him/her until the sheep come home and he will double-think his way into justifying his assinine belief system.

“There needs to be another way, apart from the form of the teaching, which includes roles and behavior patterns of both teacher and students, to determine the truth of falsity.”

OK. You give the teacher your money and your dicks. He sucks your dicks and spends the money on gawdawful crap. He sits at the front of a room babbling insane bullshit and you believe it.

What kind of braindead retard couldn’t see the truth in that falsity. I guess the kind that would write the phrase ‘the truth of falsity’.

225. Panoritsa - April 17, 2009

When the President does it, that means that it’s not illegal.
Richard M. Nixon

226. Tatyana - April 17, 2009

I believe it should say ” the truth or falsity”

The discussion was about “ad hominem”.

Thanks though. You are funny…

227. Panoritsa - April 17, 2009


I think it takes some guts and quite some courage to read any book that questions authority. When someone just reads a selection of paragraphs from The Guru Papers, you cannot expect them to agree and stay in the Fellowship at the same time.

It is so much easier living someone else’s dream than living one’s own life. Burton’s dream has turned into a bitter nightmare for many, but the ones who stay need to justify their decision. So, they keep on paying for Burton’s pension and the luxury, because it is so much easier to just follow someone else who appears strong and right and divine. If you try to take this belief away from them, they are capable of anything! They have nothing else left.

But it is really kind of you to send current members a note from time to time and who knows…one day…maybe they will want to face reality…

In the meantime…the show just goes on at Oregon House…at this very moment.

228. WhaleRider - April 17, 2009

Thank you for your post; it is a great example of how to “frame” an argument…they are presenting the impregnable “teacher-student” frame again. It makes me puke.

Do not be baited into a discussion of how to tell a true guru from a false one; that is not the issue presented in the Guru Papers.

The issue is whether or not closed authoritarian systems like the Fellowship of Friends cult (aka Pathway to Presence) actually benefit anyone else but those in power whose agenda is to stay in power.

Followers who accept the division within themselves of “lower self” versus “higher self” are easily controlled by the authority figure who determines what is high and what is low, often to the point where they will harm themselves (or others) to maintain group membership.

Is a “student” a real student or a false one if they allow themselves to be sexually exploited and emotionally manipulated?

At the end of the day, a cult is a cult because the leader, usually the founder, places themself in a position of power where their authority cannot be challenged through circular thinking, doesn’t allow their followers to ever graduate, and uses the group members and the group’s resources to fulfill their own self-interest under the guise of helping others.

Send that to your “friend” and let me know what they say.

229. in2it - April 17, 2009

Whalerider, if that person bothered to answer you, I’m sure it would look something like the following:

You: “Followers who accept the division within themselves of “lower self” versus “higher self” are easily controlled by the authority figure who determines what is high and what is low, often to the point where they will harm themselves (or others) to maintain group membership.”

Answer: “One needs help to awaken, so that’s why one needs a teacher. Receiving true help is rare, so one is foolish if one questions help when it is presented to one. The question you must ask yourself is why you doubt the divinity of your teacher. If you look inside yourself, and truly see yourself, you’ll see that it is something within you that is wrong — not within the Teacher. It’s your false personality, it’s your feminine dominance, it’s your Lower Self. You call it “harm” but transformation of suffering is needed to reach a higher level of existence. When people leave the school, they are giving up on their possibilities. Maintaining group membership is important, because one cannot progress in one’s work without a school. And to my knowledge, the Fellowship is the only school on Earth. One needs to be given difficult challenges so that one’s mechanicality is revealed, and so that one can see oneself. What form that takes does not matter.”

You: “Is a “student” a real student or a false one if they allow themselves to be sexually exploited and emotionally manipulated?”

[No answer. We’ll completely ignore that question, as it calls attention to a topic that we need to ignore if we’re going to continue in “the work.” But if we did answer it, we’d just pull out the femine dominance card. Everything that questions Burton’s authority and the FOF and suggests even mildly that something is wrong is feminine dominance and a sign of a negative attitude, which of course is frowned upon.]

You: “At the end of the day, a cult is a cult because the leader, usually the founder, places themself in a position of power where their authority cannot be challenged, through circular thinking, doesn’t allow their followers to ever graduate, and uses the group members and the group’s resources to fulfill their own self-interest under the guise of helping others. Send that to your “friend” and let me know what they say.”

Answer: The group’s resources are needed because payment is a principle, and one needs to work against one’s mechanical reactions to the world — in other words, feeling anger when the Teacher does something that one considers offensive,…etcetera.”


So … I can think in circles with the best of them. But the key in all circular thinking is this: Always ignore the most important facts and the most relevant information, and focus on vague/nebulous concepts and pretend those concepts aren’t vague or nebulous. Ignore all comments that present direct evidence that something is wrong. And if you do address the subject, make sure you do it very quickly, and then change it. Change the subject. Change the subject. Change the subject.

230. ton - April 17, 2009

ad hominem, stir well…
all the lights are on, everyone is enlightened…
so why is ‘conscious bob’ still sitting on that boy’s lap?

in the case of the behavior of this particular greedy ‘guru,’
(imo) ad hominem attacks are more than legitimate, they’re justified…

231. ton - April 18, 2009

i don’t know how likely it is but an idea for part 3 / 4 — to demonstrate the brainwashed state of the followers, interview current ‘member(s)’ — maybe tatyana knows someone who would be willing to ‘go on the record’ and challenged to defend the indefensible… thanks for your work here.

232. Tatyana - April 18, 2009

whalerider here is an answer for you:

“It’s true, when you see someone acting like a psychopath, there is a possibility that he is a psychopath, but it is still only a possibility, or maybe even more, a probability. It does not prove that he actually is, although the probability may be enough to convince you. Still, there are experts who could clinically label him a psychopath. But even when you have established, with the aid of experts, that so and so is a psychopath, what bearing does this have in proving that he is a false guru? If you determined that the guru was a psychopath, it doesn’t follow necessarily that he is false, or that his teaching is false. In any case, you would have to start with defining a true or false teaching. He may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching may still be true, or he may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching really false. True, if he acts like a psychopath, you might not want him as a teacher, but that doesn’t mean he’s a false teacher.

The criteria brought forth in the “Guru Papers” do not prove anything. They may be arguments that help you make a decision, or form a judgment, which, once again, may be sufficient for your purposes, but that judgment is necessarily subjective. If you are satisfied with your judgment or decision what need is there to pry further into the matter.

The person who wrote the “Guru Papers”, through a sense of justice or indignation, feels like he needs to inform us on the subject of false gurus and is probably doing some people a great service in swaying their opinions, but the argument put forth only shows that given these criteria, a guru may be shown to be false, which is something you might like to believe, but who says that these criteria do, in fact, prove the truth or falsity? HE does.”

233. ton - April 18, 2009

hello is there anybody in there (out there)
just nod if you can hear me
is there any one at home?

you are only coming though in waves
your lips move but i can’t hear what you are saying….

234. ton - April 18, 2009

and how i wish you were here:

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell,
Blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
Did you exchange
A walk on part in the war,
For a lead role in a cage?

How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We’re just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl,
Year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have we found
The same old fears.
Wish you were here.

235. ton - April 18, 2009

sorry, the previous link should’ve been:

(that’s better… good night).

236. ton - April 18, 2009

231 tatyana…. sometimes your head gets in the way of trusting your gut and common sense.

237. elena - April 18, 2009

Tatyana, I don’t know what text you sent him, it would help if you repeat it. If you really care for that person love him genuinely. As you drop Fellowship acts you’ll inevitably become more real and people feel that.

I would also share great things from outside that might interest him from before the Fellowship. It took me a long time to find genuine interests but it’s happening and amongst the things I am thrilled with are Mr. Obama. He is quite a miracle! It is a pity to miss one’s time for a cult. If one can connect to politics many years ago and what those changes actually mean today it is impossible to not appreciate it and to be able to place one’s self again in one’s time is already half the healing. There’s more consciousness in one of Obama’s speeches than in thirty-five years of Fellowship life.

The Fellowship is an altar to the dark sides of Modern Way of Life. Members sincerely give themselves up to honour what they conceive as consciousness. “We” were there but we’re not there any more. They project it from the unconscious programming that they received: the ideal of the capitalist idiosyncrasy in which money can pay for anything and everything, even consciousness at 350 dollars a dinner! What else did we give him but money and sex and then made a God of him? Robert, the free man who can indulge in every excess without being diminished by it because they fill the coffers as soon as he spends them; who does not have to refrain because he is already free, who does not have to answer for anything to anyone. Freedom “backwards” in which lawlessness is taken for lawfulness. Members dress him with the powers that he doesn’t have so that they can justify believing in him. They project their own unconscious image of what being free means: INDULGENCE, ABUSE, INCONSIDERATENESS, LAWLESNESS, IMMORALITY, UNCONTROL, SELFISHNESS. It is not just that Robert is a narcissistic sociopath, it’s that the members are “sociopathically” narcissistic. The ideal state of individualism in which there are no human ties but ties of submission and in which everyone else is “below” “unworthy” “exploitable”. Then they can exercise the same abuse because they’ve already justified it as divine. Divine equals: No human ties: No family, no ugly old people, no children, (unless their parents are willing to sacrifice them) no love necessary for sex, no solidarity and no positive emotions. Dignity, integrity and solidarity are full of shit morality! “We have a God called Robert”!! Have you heard Mr. Obama asking his people to spend time with their children? This is no coincidence. Modern Way of life dehumanized “Life” and cults are the altarpieces of its ideology.

238. elena - April 18, 2009

Tatyana, 231

The argument that everything is subjective can be counteracted by asking what is objective about Robert lifestyle and how does the person actually conceive objectivity. Unless he’s conscious of it himself he won’t be able to answer or his answer will be equally questionable. Can consciousness harm others? If he answers that it can then he’s serving a different kind of devil. If he answers that manipulating people for one’s interest is not hurting people then he’s also serving a different kind of consciousness. If he can come to objective truths such as, people are hurt from abuse, then he can deal with what abuse is: Seducing people taking advantage of one’s position of authority? And so on with the rest.

Objective truths means being able to conceive reality independently from one’s self. People are born, live and die. There’s a cake, if I eat it all, you won’t have any!!! If it rains and you don’t have an umbrella, you get wet! If you hit me it hurts me. If you don’t let me speak my integrity is diminished. If you don’t let me express love, my integrity is diminished. There are objective qualities to being human and they are tampered with in cults. Speech, thought, feeling. It is speech thoughts and feelings in relation to people. If you take the people away, which is what cults do and replace them for the one and only Guru, you are changing an objective reality for a subjective reality chosen by the member. THAT is what is subjective, not the other. Each “Way” had a reason to deal with objective reality as it did for the fakir, the monk or the yogui but cults use the aspects of all the ways for ignorant people. Cults separate people from life only half way allowing them to keep making money outside but not developing life outside.

All these are pretty factual questions and there are more. Don’t give up!

239. elena - April 18, 2009

This matters and I’d like to try to explain better what I understand, I have no idea whether it is objective or subjective as regular theories look at it but this is how I see it. The things we do have objective outcomes whether we do them subjectively or objectively, consciously or unconsciously. Whether Robert is or is not identified with the sex he has with young men is not the issue but that the outcome of that sexuality is detrimental to the participants. I would argue that it is as much against Robert as it is against the boys because manipulating people into sex is not truly rewarding even for the manipulator. It might put him in the vicious circle of looking for acceptance amongst people he subdues and feeling partially gratified sexually but it won’t bring him closer to himself. It’ll make his narcissistic sociopathic traits stronger but it’ll make him weaker. Some questions can arise like: Why would he have to have sex with people who are equal to him? That’s morality. Is it morality? To conceive that a relation in which submission is not the condition for sexual intercourse is more objectively healthy than not?

Again we come to the position in which what cults have to undermine is any sense of objective truth so that no one can question its practices. But the question could still linger, if it’s more objectively healthy, what puts the guru out of that objectivity? If there is a way of spending money for a “good householder” what makes the guru able to spend money like an addict free from the good householder standard? That he’s a man number 8! How much more subjective can you get? And in the end that was the only final argument Girard and the rest could give. An argument based on blind authority, blind divine authority without contact to reality.

Don’t we have to give up objective reality to accept the guru’s dictates? Isn’t that precisely what your friend is giving up so that he can argue that all arguments are subjective? What makes his arguments more objective?

There’s another aspect worth exploring related to the objectivity of “LIFE”. Where I was most lost in the Fellowship was in the understanding the “effect” that cult life had on me. Everything one does or doesn’t do has an “effect” on one’s self. Playing the guitar has an effect, drawing, looking after people, making money for one’s self or for somebody else; EVERYTHING has an effect. The effect of giving up one’s right to participate in the community one belongs to as a citizen with full personal and social authority has an objective effect on the I of the people involved in such practices. On the pocket, the heart and the head too, but on the I of the individual, the objective effect is more harmful to his or her integrity than in any of the other areas which simply accumulate to weaken the I. The weakening of the I cannot be measured physically because it cannot be seen but the development of manifestations such as blind idolatry in which the guru’s I has replaced the “raison d’etre” (reason to be) of the member is an objective expression of the phenomenon.

Giving up a family because it is the guru’s will weakens the integrity of the individual and the society to which that family belongs to. Here someone like Girard would argue that even Jesus asked the disciples to abandon everything but we could argue back that that is a literal interpretation of esoteric texts and that he might have meant to not be identified with them which is very different to abandoning them. One of the problems at hand is that esoteric work does require separation or non identification that makes it very easy to manipulate and misinterpret it just as the Fellowship did; If you had protested for being separated from your family, your money, your love, or your self, you would have been labelled for being simply identified, so members allowed to be stripped of everything trying to prove that they were, we were, not identified! The trick is perfect.

I need to rest but if we work around these ideas we might move a step further than we have yet. They are out for questioning and exploring. Too late and too tired for corrections or shortening. So sorry.

240. fofblogmoderator - April 18, 2009

229 is newly moderated

241. Crouching Tiger - April 18, 2009


Just to answer a couple of the quotes from your fellowship friend.

1. “The point is that you could have a real teacher and his students acting exactly the same as a false teacher and his students, and in that case how would you be able to tell a real from a false teacher.”

The point is that this is untrue. The speaker does show his own position here – he/she clearly doesn’t have their own criteria for discriminating one from the other. There might be a great many superficial resemblances and indeed some ‘truth’ mixed in there, but the difference would emerge in a host of small details in the organisation over a period of time.

2. “He may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching may still be true, or he may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching really false. True, if he acts like a psychopath, you might not want him as a teacher, but that doesn’t mean he’s a false teacher.”

This is a rather incredible line of reasoning. You enter a ‘school of self-development’ to allow change within your own psychology.If the agent of that change, the teacher, happens to be a psychopath, then it shows you where ‘change’ in his environment will ultimately lead you. The branch can’t fall far from the tree etc… You will become more like him, subtly more Burton-psychology, because ultimately his teaching cannot be anything other than what he IS, not what he says.

One of the definitions of a psychopathy is “Lack of a conscience in conjunction with a weak ability to defer gratification and/or control aggressive desires…”, so if you join a school run by a man with this working in him constantly, this ultimately is what you will learn. You will learn how to ‘do’ the same thing and how to justify it to yourself. The little cameo with D-ri-n and M-h-i selling vouchers for favours was a small-scale example.

There is a basic disconnect between being and action/behaviour here which has become rationalised to an extraordinary degree in the fellowship – and on this blog by the likes of DC. One of the first and most persistent versions is the twisting of the famous “Consciousness is not functions” statement by Ouspensky in the fellowship. Somehow this has now come to mean something like “Seek presence, but do whatever you like, whenever you feel like it”. It’s a remarkably resilient lie inside the school, and it’s still alive because that’s what the students see in their teacher.

But Ouspensky also said, “Consciousness IMPROVES functions” and that is one way of ‘measuring’ a teacher’s worthiness. Look at what they do in all aspects of their life, and find out if you want to be similar.

242. Crouching Tiger - April 18, 2009

Another afterthought. I guess one of the main reasons people are attracted to 4th Way ideas is that there’s a promise that KNOWLEDGE, things that you know as ideas in your head, can become an organic part of you, can become a part of your BEING…. There’s the intriguing possibility that one day, you may actually BE free of negative emotions etc..

When you take a look at the latest apologist fellowship ‘posting’ through Tatyana, it’s as if this situation has been turned on its head. He asks you to forget what RB is, or may be, and trust the body of knowledge, the teaching. Don’t worry if he’s a psychopath, the teaching is still true!

Don’t trust the real body, with its common sense and gut instincts and ability to sense instantaneously what’s in front of it. Trust the body of knowledge.

243. Panoritsa - April 18, 2009

I more and more see that lack of conscience is the main issue in the Fellowship. I did the same. When the issue with M. and D. came up, everyone I knew and is still in the Fellowship said that they imitated with Burton did. There was no insight offered to make the connection with something unacceptable. Some things do not go hand by hand with spiritual development. I did not make the connection and when I called my good friend M. at Apollo to talk about how shocking the news was, he mainly said they were young and we all did “our thing” in our youth. I had worked closely with both men and I know they meant to do their best (talking about five years ago), so I tried to contact D. whom I considered a good friend and tried to offer support. And he sounded reasonable and he seemed to have understood.

What happened with all these young men who had Burton as an example in their early twenties? M. escaped and I am happy for him.

Others are stuck in an obviously corrupted game.

They are playing with mental constructions, disallowing the heart to feel and the body to sense. Maybe there is a lot of pain there and they do not want to visit the basement. But the more they support the “sequence” and all the tricks their mind comes up with, the more they become alienated from their inner life and they remain children in search of a master who will lead them. There is no strength there.

The master is corrupted. What does this information make of the followers?

244. Jomo Piñata - April 18, 2009

232/Tatyana (transmitting response of another)

The criteria brought forth in the “Guru Papers” do not prove anything. They may be arguments that help you make a decision, or form a judgment, which, once again, may be sufficient for your purposes, but that judgment is necessarily subjective.

This is the old “subjective/objective” game. I’ve seen how it ends. Objective always wins. Objective always gets to make the rules. Objective always tells mommy I’m subjective. I’m not playing anymore.

The person who wrote the “Guru Papers”, through a sense of justice or indignation, feels like he needs to inform us on the subject of false gurus

I’ve read the Guru Papers many times. Maybe it’s just me, but I missed the section on false gurus. Obviously the person hasn’t read the book. He’s responding to what he thinks the book is about.

245. veramente - April 18, 2009

Ellen 211
35 views of video #I and 27 views of video #II was simply a small reality check.
the views are growing and by chance I found some mannumbernine videos as well…someone is at work…

246. Jomo Piñata - April 18, 2009

232/Tatyana (transmitting response of another)

If you determined that the guru was a psychopath, it doesn’t follow necessarily that he is false, or that his teaching is false. In any case, you would have to start with defining a true or false teaching. He may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching may still be true, or he may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching really false. True, if he acts like a psychopath, you might not want him as a teacher, but that doesn’t mean he’s a false teacher.

Hee hee hee. Too much! (wiping away tears of amusement.) Try this rewrite, broken into three paragraphs for readability’s sake, with editorial parentheticals, and see if it brings anything into relief. Tinfoil helmets are optional.

“If you determined that the schoolteacher was a sexually compulsive delusional schizophrenic and remorseless manipulator, it doesn’t follow necessarily that the curriculum he is teaching is delusional, or that the content of what he says is delusional.

(It has its own inner logic and the student must tune him- or her-self to the particular frequency on which the teaching is being transmitted.)

In any case, you would have to start with defining a delusional or non-delusional curriculum. (Something about counting prehistoric rhino poops in cave paintings should be inserted here.)

He may be labeled a sexually compulsive delusional schizophrenic and remorseless manipulator, while teaching a non-delusional curriculum, or he may be labeled a sexually compulsive delusional schizophrenic and remorseless manipulator who teaches a delusional curriculum. (What is it about the Ouspenskian legacy that brings the taxonomists out of the woodwork?)

True, if he acts like a sexually compulsive delusional schizophrenic and remorseless manipulator, you MIGHT not want him as a schoolteacher (maybe you do, what do I know? You too may be a fledgling sexually compulsive delusional schizphrenic and budding remorseless manipulator), but that doesn’t necessarily mean he is also teaching a delusional curriculum.”

247. Jomo Piñata - April 18, 2009

Did I say three paragraphs? Let’s make that “more than three.”

248. Jomo Piñata - April 18, 2009

Or try this simple version:

The fact that he’s reptilian, and a snake-oil salesman, doesn’t mean that what he’s selling is actually snake oil. You would need to distinguish true snake oil from false snake oil. The fact that he’s a snake oil salesman may mean that you don’t want him as your teacher, but you have to independently analyze whether what he’s selling is snake oil, or oil prepared from some other type of reptile.

249. ton - April 18, 2009

jomo, he’s definitely controled by the reptilian part of his brain… ad hominem, stir well…

re: nonsense about systems & sequences & all the obsessional ideation… counting $$$, turds, toes… absurd. note from the current dark ages… “When people want to express total pointlessness, they sometimes say… silly as ‘arguing over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.’ This argument is supposed to have taken place between Byzantine theologians or medieval scholars…”




250. WhaleRider - April 18, 2009

“He may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching may still be true, or he may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching really false. True, if he acts like a psychopath, you might not want him as a teacher, but that doesn’t mean he’s a false teacher.”

IMO, there are no “psychopaths”, only people who display psychopathic behaviors, whether they claim to be gurus or Sunday School Teachers.

251. Jomo Piñata - April 18, 2009

WhaleRider, I take you to be raising the question whether persons exhibiting psychopathic behavior can be healed or rehabilitated. I take your view to be the optimistic one, one I wish I could share. Alas, the evidence prevents me:


252. brucelevy - April 18, 2009

250. WhaleRider

I also disagree.

253. WhaleRider - April 18, 2009

Jomo and Bruce:
Thanks for the chance to clarify myself.

People displaying psychopathic behavior are still human beings and IMO still have a right be treated as humanely as possible. If they are a danger to themselves or others, they need to be safely contained. Rehabilitation is not the question I was raising at all.

Labels are dehumanizing.

The argument is:

“He may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching may still be true, or he may be labeled a psychopath and his teaching really false. True, if he acts like a psychopath, you might not want him as a teacher, but that doesn’t mean he’s a false teacher.”

Psychopathic behavior is still psychopathic behavior…that is the issue. It doesn’t matter the intent, call it what you will, harm is still being inflicted on others.

Remember: psychopathic behavior is done as an expression of power over another person for the sake of power only, without any regard to the victim’s welfare.

The person displaying psychopathic behavior may rationalize to himself (and others) that he is “teaching” his victims a lesson and in this case, even indoctrinate other potential victims in his victim pool the same through group reinforcement, by employing the teacher-student “frame” of reference, i.e, “teacher knows best.”

The intent of the argument presented by Tanyana’s “friend” is to instill self-doubt in followers of a closed authoritarian system, not to empower them as whole people to act in their own self-interest, but to cause the followers to give the authority figure in question the benefit of the doubt, thus enduring harm and placing the blame on what they have been conditioned to feel they lack, consciousness.

254. More history needed? - April 18, 2009

Student in OH store:

This year we have half the amount of money from teaching payment compared to last year same time.

Other student silent and surprised.

255. More history needed? - April 18, 2009

Mannumbernine is Greg Goodwin IMO.

Want to make a bet?

256. ton - April 18, 2009

more hstory
you would win the bet…. manumber9 links here:


257. nigel harris price - April 18, 2009

253 whalerider

I agree with your interpretation of psychopathic behaviour. I have even seen myself, when in hypo-manic mood, want to manipulate others and even using aggression as a ‘tool’ to try to bring about ‘the desired effect’. I have found schizophrenics to be even worse, in this regard, when they seem to rely on megalomania (does, or does not, REB tend to exhibit this?) as a means of ‘bringing others under their field of influence’. Normal behaviour, to use an old ‘work term’, utilizes external consideration more often, where others are concerned, and will place others’ welfare above their own in more cases than if they, the perpetrator of actions, were to disregard another’s feelings and act selfishly. I feel this is a huge area for discussion, since it implies that REB is, at least, not well, and, at worst, a ‘danger to himself and/or others’, and needs sectioning…..Nigel.

258. nigel harris price - April 18, 2009

As an addendum to 257

Sexual Exploitation, Sexual Predator, Sexual Harassment, Enticement, Breach of Trust, Willful Tort, Negligent Tort
Worse, and this is important, living these lies dishonored the efforts of his students, made a mockery of their truths. Then on, ever downwards, the web of deceit was woven thread by thread. Countless times, Burton told the lie of celibacy in the morning and that same evening raped one of his students (fucked them against their will), used blackmail and further lies to complete the deed, used the Work language to serve his own base purposes. Used their shame as a weapon to ensure their silence. Bruce has told it, how isolated each of the ‘boys’ in the Blake Cottage were, each thinking they were the only one. This poison contaminated every aspect of the Fellowship. What do the grandiose dreams of good declared by Burton mean in the face of this? In the balance, far less than nothing, a negative amount. The horror outweighs any possibility of good.

259. Yesri Baba - April 18, 2009

“The only objective truth is that there is no objective truth.”

a ‘retardnumberninepointnine’ commentary.

260. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

259 Yesri Baba

Being true to One’s Self (True Character) and telling the Truth to others is One Aspect of Objective Truth. Does Burton fit this criterion and does he, indeed, actually have a True Character?…..Nigel.

261. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

Copied and pasted from Jomo Pinata’s post #251 (link)…..

“Psychopaths have a specific emotional deficit, and are limited to a very narrow range of emotions. They know the difference between what society considers “right” and “wrong,” but do not experience, and cannot empathize with, the feelings of suffering, remorse, elation and love that are part of being human. Without that “little internal voice” we call conscience, psychopaths feel free to do whatever their needs and wants dictate, and their transgressions do not result in feelings of guilt (Hare 1999, Millon1998).

Not only do psychopaths lack emotions of conscience and empathy, but research has shown that individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD) are also indifferent to the threat of physical pain and to punishment in general. Without fear of punishment, there is little to deter the psychopath from committing criminal acts, if those acts represent the fastest route to gratification (Hare 1999).”


262. Jomo Piñata - April 19, 2009


I follow and respect what you are saying. I agree with much which you said, but not all of it. This post focuses on the point of disagreement.

I do not think labels are necessarily dehumanizing; although labels can be used to dehumanizing effect, I don’t think that effect is inherent in labeling. In the case of psychopathy or sociopathy, however, it may be that the dehumanizing aspect of putting labels on these individuals is warranted.

As I see it, sociopaths/psychopaths are parasitic and poisonous (”not healthy for children and other living things”) (Yes, Bruce, I’m dating myself but you still have ten years on me). Poisons get labeled so people won’t take them inadvertently. People get labeled with these particular terms of art so others won’t be lulled into approaching them from any possible position of vulnerability. Don’t you think?

We brand people as psychopaths or sociopaths for at least two reasons: we want to make sense of our own experience, and we want to warn others. I think sociopathy or psychopathy, terms which I understand to refer to the same human phenomenon (differing only as to the attribution of that phenomenon primarily to social factors or to innate characteristics) stand for the proposition that these people are radically different from the rest of us. That’s the import of works like Robert Hare’s Without Conscience (link omitted; see moderated post above when it appears) and Hervey Cleckley’s The Mask of Sanity (wiki link omitted; see moderated post above when it appears.) Surely psychopaths/sociopaths, at least in the extreme case, aren’t human in the same way as the rest of us. I am not alone in confessing genuine horror that such individuals exist, or that there is a field of study devoted to them. It is disturbing to acknowledge that this category of evil exists.

That does not mean we should treat people who warrant this label inhumanely. It does mean we should know who they are and steer clear. If we cannot steer clear, we should understand that our human tendency and desire to trust cannot itself, under any circumstance, be trusted as to such individuals.

Feel free to disagree if you think I’m wrong. I’m happy to consider what you have to say, and if it turns out that I’m wrong, to change my opinion.

263. Tatyana - April 19, 2009

I just came back from my first meeting at Gurdjieff Foundation. I must confess that on the way home I experienced something similar to a psychopathic disorder. I am not sure why.
The meeting reminded me my first years in FOF when I was in Russian centers. Before I met RB or went to Apollo. Just a few people, sitting in a circle, sharing the questions and observations, calm and focused. Similar personages. Except nobody said anything “emotional” about C Influence or how lucky we are. It was so trippy, like watching your own parallel life. Things are the same but not quite. For example words are the same “be here, now, be present, shocks, awakening, sleep” etc. But the “group mentality” is different. One person said for example that shocks happen to every one on the planet earth, and inside my head I immedeately heard “Aha! wrong. Shocks are only happen to FOF students and are gifts from C influence!”
At the end of the meeting I was saying good bye to a lady I aready met before once and mechanically I leaned towards her to give her a hug and a kiss, but before I could hug and kiss her she avoided me gently and that shocked me. Suddenly in that one move I saw how different FOF and GF are.
I realised that they are not looking at each other in the eyes, not hugging, not touching, not telling any crazy stories or emotional poetry. There is no sex energy between them. And everything in FOF is about sex energy. Not nessesary sexual act itself, but just this massive exchange of energy which swips one off the feet at first and later becomes normal and neseccary.
I was thinking about it as I was driving home and suddenly I felt that I am in the state I used to call “higher state” but I care less for people, I see them as sleeping machines and types, and I feel very powerful. And in that moment I realised that I don not understand the concept of emotional pain and woke up. I saw that I have years of collected experience of this state and that this state is psychopathic.

I have been studying psychopathic disorder lately due to my son’s behavior. So this check up list poped up in my head.

How strange is the road to a normality… sanity…

Thank you everybody.

264. Tatyana - April 19, 2009

by the way, does anyone know what I can do if I consider my son “danger to himself and society” and he is 18 and lives in a different state?

265. Jomo Piñata - April 19, 2009

Great New Yorker article about psychopaths/sociopaths:

“Suffering Souls”


266. Jomo Piñata - April 19, 2009

“After dinner, we went to Hare’s room at the hotel and drank Scotch, while he showed me videos of psychopaths which he had on his computer. ‘It’s their eyes that are the most remarkable feature,’ he said. ‘How they drill into you.’”

267. sallymcnally - April 19, 2009

#263: Your FOF attire has many layers, and comes off piece by piece, allowing the fresh air of consciousness to greet you. Be patient with yourself and allow yourself ‘years’ not ‘months’ to release the entire FOF wardrobe which has built up over time. Life only gets better. Namaste!

268. WhaleRider - April 19, 2009

Call the municipal mental health services in the county of the state in which your son lives and talk to them; the laws may vary from state to state. If your son has made a suicide attempt or threat or willfully injured himself or another person, here’s some educational information for the state in which you live:


You will undoubtedly need the opinion and assessment of a mental health professional or police officer to back up your assertion.

I don’t think there is a right or wrong on the issue of carrying a psychiatric diagnosis for those judged criminally insane; it is a necessity. They cannot and must not be trusted, not when public safety (and our children) is at risk.

And yet my preference is not to regard evil (or good) as a force independent of human behavior.

Should the criminally insane be put to death? I am not in favor of the death penalty, because even though a person has lost their humanity in their actions toward others, it doesn’t mean I need to lose mine in imposing the consequences.

It still leaves us with the question for tatyana’s (son?) of whether psychopathic behavoir can be employed as a device to enlighten others by “intentionally or consciously” harming them “for their own good or evolution”. I do not believe this is true. That behavior lacks compassion, forces others into submission (or worse) through fear, and is an expression of power, not love.

269. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

263 tatyana

I am a little worried about your need for another ‘esoteric crutch’, in the form of the Gurdjieff Foundation. I, myself, made a similar ‘mistake’ in allowing a ‘fellow occupant’ of the local mental institution (at that time) to take me along to Jehovah’s Witnesses meetings with the aim of ‘priming’ me for membership into his organization. Although I gained something from the Bible Studies (partly good/partly bad), when it came to the time when they were pressurizing me to ‘release all habits that kept me from closesness to Jehovah’ and to prepare me for their form of baptism (‘witch ducking’ in a special bathing pool at the soccer stadium in front of a few thousand JW’s to show your sincerity) I ‘flipped’ and would not go to any more meetings, answer the door to them or directly answer telephone calls (buffered them with the use of my answering machine). The trouble was, as I realized later, it was just another mysoginistic, heirarchical cult and would have taken away any semblance of my ability to act as a compassionate, sensible and rational human being. Whitman said something like “…..knowledge/wisdom is not finally found in schools, but along the great roads of life…..”. May I offer you freedom of expression, strength for your sense of Self and True Power to help your family…..Nigel.

270. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

268 whalerider

I was interested in learning that (according to the article in the link I viewed) attempts at re-educating psychopaths tend to make the behaviour worse. I, also, am against the death penalty, but am strongly against allowing a psychopath any ‘free rein’, either outside of, or inside a ‘penitentiary’ (whenever they get inside, that is!). What I believe, is that REB has exhibited, in the past, and is probably still exhibiting now (maybe in a ‘stronger strain’ of the pathological illness) behaviour that not only shows him to be psychopathic, but has the effect of promoting similar behaviour in his followers, and, especially, his ‘enablers’ (GH, AB, HM etc.). Activities lacking any humanity or showing empathy to others in the name of a ‘higher good/right’ ARE PSYCHOPATHIC BEHAVIOUR…..Nigel.

271. Associated Press - April 19, 2009

212. nigel harris price:

‘Troy Buzbee became a member on October 10, 1966 when he was 17 years of age, virgin.’

Are you sure that shouldn’t be 1986? (Perhaps you just copied and pasted it, but it is good to check the facts and do the math before compounding error in the retransmission.)

Nige, I have read what you posted. When, earlier, it was posted to this blog, and the original copy of the legal documents, in the past, I read the material. And, having personally witnessed what is described and personally knowing all the parties named (Then and after-the-facts; whether now living or dead.) in the postings (And likely the original documents), I can give testimony that, for the most part, they are true, accurate and valid accounts of the circumstances and situations; as I bore witness. I was there.

In the most simple terms of all, as taught by Robert Earl Burton and the Fellowship of Friends (AKA Pathway to Presence), conscious love (divine love) does not have an opposite (i.e.: a place where there is no duality of love and hate). Robert Earl Burton, The Teacher, and many in the FoF, are incapable of consistently demonstrating that they can BE THOSE WORDS or that ideal – of divine love. They DO NOT walk the talk.

‘But Ouspensky also said, “Consciousness IMPROVES functions” and that is one way of ‘measuring’ a teacher’s worthiness. Look at what they do in all aspects of their life, and find out if you want to be similar.’
241. Crouching Tiger

272. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

271 Associated Press

….yes, copied and pasted off ‘Res Ipsa Loquitor’, because I thought pertinent…..Nigel.

273. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

264 tatyana

As you know, I have exhibited ‘pschologically disordered’ behaviour for most of my adult life. I, for one, would know whether your son is a ‘danger to himself and/or others’. Please feel free to email me, if you need to, on aprhys@nigelprice.net…..Nigel.

274. Crouching Tiger - April 19, 2009


“Can psychopathic behaviour be employed as a device to enlighten others by “intentionally or consciously” harming them “for their own good or evolution”? I do not believe this is true. That behavior lacks compassion, forces others into submission (or worse) through fear, and is an expression of power, not love.”

If it’s one thing the blog has shown, it’s that there is nothing ‘intentional or conscious’ about RB’s behaviour. It’s repeated and it’s never apparently changed, except for having grown in volume and intensity.

Something compulsive in one cannot plant a conscious seed in the other.

It’s also typical fellowship rationalization. It reminds me of how we were all encouraged to ‘lie intentionally’ to employers, landlords, ‘life-friends’ and family etc…

For example, if there was a Burton dinner and you were working that day, you might be encouraged to take a sick day and help out at the event, as evidence you acknowledged the ‘higher right’. What this really meant was that you lied deliberately and without any feeling of remorse for doing it. It became a habit. A little example of unfaithfulness in small things, a little worm of psychopathy that would be fed constantly.

Nigel, don’t worry about the GF, there are a lot of sensible people in it.

275. One from the fence - April 19, 2009

259. Yesri Baba-

I haven’t been following- did someone here or in the Fellowship say that line about objective truth?

276. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

275 One from the fence

I wrote that. It may or may not be true. You decide.

277. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

Oh, that reminds me… here’s a movie suggestion: ‘Doubt’

IMO a good portrayal of authoritarianism and the evil of certainty.

278. One from the fence - April 19, 2009

That is the point of view of people who are solely reliant on personal subjectivity, unable to “come out of their head” to connect with reality that threads through all. I’ve lost many close friends over this one point. That there is an objective reality is the basis that all philosophical and religious systems that seek to improve the state of man in relation to the universe and the simple world around him are founded upon.

Usually, your statement is the result of having been discouraged or frustrated by objective ideas, in my opinion. It also implies necessarily that we are unable to communicate with each other because we could not share the same phenomena, which is one of the reasons Gurdjieff suggested that an understood language is necessary to overcome the confusion of tongues.

I hope I haven’t over explained that. It’s a very simple thing and something you might want to observe. Nature proves other than your statement in the simple way the sun shines upon and between all subjects in it’s realm.

279. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

“That there is an objective reality is the basis that all philosophical and religious systems that seek to improve the state of man in relation to the universe and the simple world around him are founded upon.”

And how’s that working out?

280. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

278 One from the Fence

Nicely put…..about the sun symbolism thing, I mean. I actually wanted to get back on the blog this morning (GMT) and talk about states, since we have touched on REB’s psychopathic state and I suffer from bi-polar affective disorder, which although not socially as dangerous (annoying to friends, family and the authorities, mostly, and financially potentially devastating) has to do with extreme states of consciousness and one’s being connected with them.

IMO, REB has ‘borrowed’ (probably STOLEN would be a better term!) ideas from the 4th Way, initially, and then joined on psycho/socio/religious aspects as they have suited his insatiable desire for DOMINANCE, GREED and SEXUAL PERVERSION (infra-sex). He gets angry when he does not get his own petty, childish way and ‘kicks out’ any FOF followers who show almost any sign of dissention. To me, the idea of ‘objective truth’ is somewhat mathematico/universalistic and does have a ‘natural ladder’, if you like, of being and states. This has been interpreted by Gurdjieff as the ‘Ray of Creation’, which I believe shows some very useful aspects of how Truth can be dispersed from the higher to the lower, but becomes ‘heavier and heavier’. Higher Truth, or ‘objective truth’, as you would have it, in its highest state is light and delighting, inspiring and impelling to right and conscienable action. When it reaches the clogged, dense state of a Robert Burton (almost immeasurably, in state, below false personality, since personality is only a mask, which can be eroded or lifted, whereas Burton is ‘crystallised’ in perhaps the lowest hydrogens in the Ray of Creation) there are lies, criminality, illegal and immoral acts which any sane (in the normal sense in which ‘sane’ is meant) person would have nothing to do with. FOF members are identified with the elation and lack of discretion needed to enjoy a ‘beautifully twiddley-dee third state experience’ that the cult provides…..Nigel.

281. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

279 Yesri Baba

Are you one of those brave souls who can live with the ‘almost total uncerainty’ of (nowadays more so) everyday life – that you do not need the sustaining ‘creations’ that artists, musicians and literary geniuses have bequeathed to us? You may have been one of those who posted ‘objective comments’ about my bi-polar, but, let me tell you, it takes a psychotic to tell you what psychosis is all about…..God-like states – I’ve had ’em; angels – I believe in ’em; the Universe – it sustains me in the way that a mother nourishingly loves Her Child. Life is and will always be…we just keep going! And that, my friend, is Objective Reality…..Nigel.

282. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

One from the Fence

I think you have ‘jumped off’ and landed in a more beautiful garden than that which re-entering the FOF would have provided…..Nigel.

283. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

“It also implies necessarily that we are unable to communicate with each other because we could not share the same phenomena, which is one of the reasons Gurdjieff suggested that an understood language is necessary to overcome the confusion of tongues.”

OK. Let’s start with the terms subjective and objective.

I will define subjective as everything that has come into my being through the five senses during my lifetime which includes all knowledge.

Perhaps someone can help me out with a definition for objective.

284. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

281 Nigel

I am pretty darn sure I didn’t post anything ‘objective’ about your bi-polar disorder.

Thanks for your definition of objective reality. It is a good one imo.

285. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

284 Yesri Baba

My mistake, kind sir! Actually, I don’t find Reality a very impelling subject, as far as living a Godly, Humane, or even Normal Life. As you have seen, it can lead to intellectual wrangling. Your previous posts to this blogsite have been most sustaining to me and others and I hope we can quickly veer away from this area. I feel ‘One from the Fence’ has grown up immensely from his/her first posts. Here is an Objective Reality for you – keep on posting!…..We luv ya!…..Nigel.

286. elena - April 19, 2009

Hi Yesri, old blogger! Forgive the familiarity in this Fellowship frigidity and indifference but that’s the joy with which I experience you! Can I walk with you for a little while? Since my humor has been dumbified to mummified, I have great difficulty knowing when you’re kidding and have come close to thinking that you’re never serious but since I know I’m not objectively objective about everything, I must be perceiving you subjectively!!

I wonder what makes you think that everything that comes into your being through the five senses is subjective. You’ve got to be kidding! But even if you are, it reflects a line of thought that is very common in Western culture. If we followed it all the way back to it’s source we would find its roots in the same division of the physical and the spiritual world proper of the Fellowship but in traditional religion. You would only need to walk up the stairs of your knowledge and down the road of your programming and again across the rivers of your conscience to crash against your consciousness and touch the core of that statement to objective reality!

Your statement is so true: “I will define subjective as everything that has come into my being through the five senses during my lifetime which includes all knowledge.” And yet it is, like most truths, only half of the truth or only half way to the truth. The other half is in what you’re willing to bet on it! Whether you are willing to stand at the tip of what you received in life and stay there repeating the conditioning you were given or walk out of the circle, shuffle the cards and play the game with cards that include you in the meaning. As if in making love you thought that playing with the tip were sufficient and never penetrated deep enough! Is that objective enough?

Life is an opportunity in which the game is given but it is the player willing to bet on it that gives it meaning. Everyone can cheat and keep the cheating going or one can bet on different conditions even at the risk of being thrown out of the table. At least they won’t get one’s money! Nothing is more objective than the money they fail to get! And what people stand up for is what objectively survives them no matter how miserably subjectively they are dismissed. Ignorance and indifference might write the book of the physical outcome but no one can take away the consciousness that comes from it! Nothing is more objective than the blood we are able to spill before we become conscious of the tragedy.

Ofcourse, some people prefer never to live the comedy! Or leave! Like in the Fellowship in which the soap opera of the Queen’s brothel is perceived as Walt Disney’s Conscious Fairy Tale with the Barbie King teaching divinity through rape! Talk about destroying the essence of their own nation! But in a land in which civil rights are “outdated”, who could be surprised? At least in the infamy of other countries they never even existed!

287. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

286 elena

“Bubba…bubba…bubba…..poetry in motion!” (as the song goes). Keep on like this, lass, and you’ll win a Pulitzer Prize…..Nigel.

288. Crouching Tiger - April 19, 2009


“Life is an opportunity in which the game is given but it is the player willing to bet on it that gives it meaning.”

Certainly an interesting post, almost certainly right, too. The thought that crossed my mind was…… After having written more words on the blog than anyone else (probably), I am still uncertain of what is it that you yourself are willing to bet on!

I am always convinced of your passion, but often mystified where it is landing. What is your passion’s anchor? What gives it focus? Is it protest against the fellowship, ultimately?…

As Nigel says, you may well be a Pulitzer winner in the egg, but what really makes you want to crack the shell?

289. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

“There was a reason they chose me, just like there was a reason they chose you” (the character of Terence Mann, movie ‘Field of Dreams’, starring James Earl (real one that time!) and Kevin Costner, Universal Studios, 1988). Other quotes…..

“Getting thrown out of baseball was like having part of me amputated” (character of Shoeless Joe Jackson).

“I just want to thank you folks for putting up this field and letting us play” (character of John Kinsella, ‘the father figure’).

“Man, I did love this game. I would have played for food money” (S.J.J.)

“Can I ask you something – is this Heaven?”…..”No, it’s Iowa”…..”I could have sworn it was Heaven”…..”Is there a heaven?”…..”Oh, yeah! It’s the place dreams come true!” (J.K. asking Ray Kinsella).

I can think of two other ‘dream’ movies…..

“What Dreams may Come [Love Never Dies]”, starring that famous bi-polar actor, Robin Williams, about death and the after-life…..

“Tucker, the Man and His Dream”, starring Jeff Bridges, about the famous car-manufacturer and entrepreneur, Tucker (small business rules, O.K.?)

Sorry…..I waffle…..Nigel.

290. Crouching Tiger - April 19, 2009

The reason I ask is that one realization has become increasingly clear since I left….

The fellowship has an inhibiting effect on anything that might become your passion in Life – a profession, a relationship, a vocation etc… The attitude of superiority to Life doesn’t encourage you to fulfil your role in the world. As Burton often repeats in various ways, “We are people who are average at everything except self-remembering!” And of course, who can judge whether you are succeeding at self-remembering? The only and final authority in the school is ………Burton himself!

A couple of weeks ago I won a national book award, about eighteen months since I left the fellowship. I wondered why I had waited so long! My feeling now is that fulfilling my role in Life, and doing it as well as I possibly can, is an expression of willingness and the right attitude in my spiritual life. I don’t feel the two can really be in opposition, but I know I would never have tried anything like that whilst in the fellowship. I wouldn’t have given it my best shot and risked failure, because I was too smugly content with “what I have that no-one else can see!”, my ‘riches of self-remembering’. I simply would not have had any reason to push in all my chips, to expend myself fully in what I do.

The more you expend yourself honestly in any endeavour, the less room for narcissism. Production and narcissism don’t mix.

291. One from the fence - April 19, 2009

285. grown up since first post

very self serving to say things like that- most or all of your posts are self serving and I find little of value in them. Sorry reality is not interesting to you.

292. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

291 One from the fence

You obviously did not read post #290, which is the place “I” am coming from…..My Reality (believe me, you sorry b—–d, Reality and the Sense of Selfhood are commingling!). I don’t know whether Crouching Tiger is lucky in coming to his empowerment in the Turbulent Crush of Life or whether, I, who have waited almost 20 years to reach Serving Humanity through my Art Form, am luckier in Patience bringing the Will to continue in it…either way, I am sure you hardly read my posts – others find value and, often, give me constructive criticism, so that I may hone my Style and Content – why not you? Is your recently found stability just a show? I don’t want to put Steve’s (fofblogmoderator) heckles up, to give me a warning, but I am now pretty sure you are one step away from returning to the FOF and getting a tingle in unmentionable places by, symbolically or actually, messing with Burton and his dirty habits. Yours dualistically…..Nigel.

293. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009


I should say ‘duellingly’ or is that not a REAL WORD?…..Nigel.

294. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

291 One from the Fence

Hhmmm…..let me guess…..you actually ARE in the Fellowship and ‘scamming’ a recent exit to see what s–t you could stir and are being guided in your blog activity by G—-d H—n and maybe some of the other enablers (H—a M—–r, A—-m G—–n, A–f, D—-n etc. etc.) to see what would be flung back at you. Let this be your answer, in the form of a quote from Shakespeare’s Henry V…..

“…..tell the Dauphin he hath picked a fight with such a wrangler…..”

C’mon ‘from de-fence-less’…put your blogging gloves on and let me champion, as Joe Calzaghe did as another pugnacious Welshman, the cause of my Essence Capabilities…..Nigel.

295. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

291 One from the Fence

This is the final paragraph from Crouching Tiger’s last post. Put it in your Features Octave and Work with It…..Nigel.

“The more you expend yourself honestly in any endeavour, the less room for narcissism. Production and narcissism don’t mix.” (70/290)

296. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009


Forgive me in being a ‘terrier-worrying-this-piece-of-meat-to-death’. I feel it is really necessary, when Elena and others are giving of their Essential Best (please do not blame Elena for her type – which has given wonderful acerbicity in the directive assault on the FOF Scam “free speech is a dirty business”, as they say) to drive away all falsehood- and that is how I see ‘you-know-who’…..Nigel.

297. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

286 Elena

Most of what I write is tongue in cheek. Now and again I will share my opinion on stuff. This thing on subjective/objective was brought on by Jomo’s post:

“This is the old “subjective/objective” game. I’ve seen how it ends. Objective always wins. Objective always gets to make the rules. Objective always tells mommy I’m subjective. I’m not playing anymore.”

After we are done arguing about what is subjective and what is objective we can resolve once and for all the question: Does the universe go on forever or does it end, and if it ends what is beyond it’s boundaries?

There may be ‘objective’ stuff but I am good and goddamed sure I am not going to let someone else define what it is for me.

298. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

297 Yesri Baba

I hope ‘fencey-pooh’ is reading that…..Nigel.

299. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

298 nigey-pooh

I must admit, most of what I write is naively honest (with a little bit of Martial abrupt forcefulness and Jovial ‘look-at-me-ness’ added in). N.

300. ton - April 19, 2009

CT circa 290
“….Production and narcissism don’t mix.”

i guess it depends on how you define ‘production’ — i can think of at least one malignant narcissist who for many years has been very motivated and in a self-serving sense ‘productive’ — one might argue that the fof is a ‘production’ established to feed the appetites of this particular greedy ‘guru’

301. Crouching Tiger - April 19, 2009


I would say the key is doing something which requires your emotional involvement. Nigel tends to speak of metal-working that way. When your feelings are involved, you want to be in at the beginning and the end.

When your feelings get involved in that way – in a project, or a relationship, if you’re lucky in your everyday work… – it’s just far more interesting than admiring ‘what you think you’re capable of’ or ‘what you imagine your state of development to be’… It stops you doing that. You get to test that guesswork against reality, and see where you really stand.

In this sense I would say that RB has a split heart. He may or may not like the sensation of presence, but he likes other things more, and the result is a sybaritic lifestyle where everyone does as much as possible for him. He hardly seems to do anything for himself, and the fellowship is constructed in such a way that he and his teaching can’t be put to the test.

302. ton - April 19, 2009

“….RB has a split heart….”
and this is the reason he speaks with a forked tongue. he’s like a snake in the grass, lying in wait for his next morsel…. ‘his teaching’ as you put it, is simply a lure.

303. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

301 Crouching Tiger

You are right about emotional involvement – in my teaching it is characters of individual students AND WHAT T.H.E.Y. CAN PRODUCE that makes me emotional and keeps me going (even to the extent of texting encouragingly after the event or to suggest an approach at the next session) and, with commissioning, the ‘meeting of psyches’ in either a cultural or personally-angled way (I was really proud of my first ‘big’ commission – the Fellowship Communion Set – Walter S. became involved in a way that I had rarely witnessed in the cult – can any brave personage get photo-images for me, since I never had them taken at the time of making?). I postulated to myself, and would dearly have loved to state an angle to the effect at a G—-d H—n led meeting “The best way of working against vanity is to do what is required and do it to the best of one’s ability”…..

…as for testing REB and the FOF, I am ‘backgrounding’ with “Highlander” and believe that ‘The Gathering’ is soon to come (“Can you feel it coming in the air tonight, hold on?”). Guess who is to play the Kurgon? Hee, hee! N.

304. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

Want to know why I put so much store by movie symbolism, when I was sneaking out to a movie-theatre in California (against the rules?) or when I was ‘carried back’ to the UK and was recommended DVDs to watch?…..

…..W.B. Yeats wrote “Love hid his head among the stars” and Rodney Collin stated that there was a ‘wave’ of spirituality emerging in the film-media, even in his time…..”We few, we happy few, we band of brothers” (HenryV)…..Nigel.

305. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

290 Crouching Tiger

Congratulations, way to go!

It is a weird contradiction (maybe not), that a ‘spiritual’ mindset sets itself above it all, non-attatched, and yet often beneath and behind is a nagging feeling that- I am not worthy, I am not good enough or it is just ‘life’ or the ‘relative’ world. At least it has been that way for me at times. I try to ‘work on’ that.

Way to get out there and mix it up- Choose Life!

306. Ill Never Tell - April 19, 2009

301. Crouching Tiger:

‘He [Robert Earl Burton] hardly seems to do anything for himself. . .’

He brushes his teeth and goes to the crapper, with presence, himself. But he does need help putting his pants on two legs at a time, with presence. Most mere mortals put their pants on one leg at a time.

307. James Mclemore - April 19, 2009

Crouching Tiger said:

“The more you expend yourself honestly in any endeavour, the less room for narcissism.”

First, let me join in with Yesri Baba in congratulations. Very cool.

And thank you for the above. I threw that one in my tool bag.

308. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

“May I, with right and conscience, make this claim?…..” (Henry V)

Isiah 42 vvs 1-14

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles.

He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

A bruised reed he shall not break, and the smoking flax he shall not quench; he shall bring forth judgement unto truth.

He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgement in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein.

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and will give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another; neither any praise to graven images.

Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth; ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants therein.

Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice; the villages that Kedar doth inhabit; let the inhabitants of the rock sing; let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare his praise in the islands.

The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war; he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself; now I will cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

309. WhaleRider - April 19, 2009

Congratulations Crouching Tiger!

310. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

Yesri Handy’s thought for the day:

Grab that inner authoritarian and yank it to you, jerk down it’s pant and give it a good spanking!

(sorry, been working in the garden and my thoughts tend to wander…. bad Yesri, bad naughty ,weak lower Yesri)

311. ton - April 19, 2009

ct circa 301

the chorus says congratulations…. ?

“I would say the key is doing something which requires your emotional involvement….”

i get your point but to play “devil’s advocate” for a moment, i think there is no question of RB’s ’emotional involvement’ — imo the question here is one of motivation… ’emotional’ or otherwise… what motivates the fof ‘enterprise’ (or ‘production’ if you like) and in this lies the question of ‘character’ regarding REB… teachings smeachings…. ad hominem, stir well…

312. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

Nice camouflage, you guys! O.K. Leader Tactics – first in and last out for a fight – Ford Greene of Hub Law Offices has been sent a copy/paste of ‘Our Spiritual Teacher’ from the FOF/Wikipedia site and I have sent some obviously provocative emails to their message site on ‘Contact Us’. Call me reckless, but I have a heroin and model in Elena…..Nigel

P.S. I have kept my winning lottery ticket ready for taking to the central office to receive my whopping big cheque!

313. ton - April 19, 2009

nigel 312… mmm ‘heroin’… yesri wutchu got growin in your garden?

re: my previous post; ad hominem and stir…

of course ‘characterological’ questions and issues lead back to the psycopathology of the canker at the core, described here variously by ‘us’ armchair psychologists as ‘malignant narcissist, sociopath, psychopath,’ etc:


314. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009


You know how this is getting – looks like an ‘all-nighter’ on the way! If you think me unstable (all this talk of reality has fired up me problem) and want to personally talk me through it, try…..011 (44) (0) 1392 462103. N.

315. ton - April 19, 2009


nigel…. you’ll get through it… courage.

316. James Mclemore - April 19, 2009

311. ton
Hi ton
Yeah, I agree with what you are reminding us of. For me the key word in the part I quoted from CT is “honestly”. Which is, of course, a missing element in the fof.
The ‘congratulations’, was for the book award.

317. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

313 ton

Oops!…is it heroine I meant? I am a silly DOPE! (I have an advantage here; REB cannot take a joke at his own expense)…..Nigel.

318. ton - April 19, 2009

can you link ‘us’ here to the writing you did to recieve the award? that is, if you care to…

thanks all

319. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

315 ton

I would guess poppies, too, myself – for rememberance of those who have fought and died for freedom in the face of tyranny. I’m ‘coming down’, by the grace of all of you. Love in all its aspects…..Nigel.

320. Yesri Baba - April 19, 2009

315 ton


I haven’t planted yet. I just got through pulling out all the dadbelyins.

(double groan)

321. ton - April 19, 2009

i hear that the dadbelyins are ‘good eatin’ if you saute’ em in olive oil and garlic….

322. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

320 Yesri Baba

Get your tongue out of the plant-pot and put it back in your cheek – earthing is one thing, but that is ridiculous!!!!!…..Nigel.

323. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

The devastating to the ridiculous – that is the way. Modulation of ‘mood’ – oh! yes…..I forgot about that as the key to dealing with emotional soarings. It’s alright being real…..but be delicate with others’ psyches…..Nigel.

324. ton - April 19, 2009

nigel, maybe elena is your heroin… or should i write ‘heroine’?

of course ‘we’ know that heroin comes from poppies and ‘we’ also know that ‘dope’ gets a bad rap and especially when it’s ‘abused’ rather than ‘used’ — the point is (if there is one) that the vegetal world has a lot to teach ‘us’ humans…. but ‘we’re’ generally too arrogant to listen and learn.

flogmoderater…. i keep expecting you to step in here and start a new page… is this getting too ‘personal’ ?

325. nigel harris price - April 19, 2009

325 ton

I’ll get one in quick before we’re caught! My Holistic Therapist student and Wikka farmer’s wife could both clue me in on weaning-off synthetics on to naturals…..and so goodnight. A drowsy humour beckons me to bed….that’s an original, by the way…..toodle-ooh…..Nigel.

326. ton - April 20, 2009

ct circa 301

re: “sybaritic lifestyle …everyone does as much as possible for him. He hardly seems to do anything for himself…”

“pertaining to or characteristic of a sybarite; characterized by or loving luxury or sensuous pleasure: to wallow in sybaritic splendor.”

this reminded me of the insect world; termites for example where ‘the queen’ is protected and nothing more is expected from her than the laying of eggs…. ‘queen’ is of course an apropos description of REB who is for those on the outside looking in, also very good at ‘laying eggs’ —

Idioms: egg on (one’s) face Informal, Embarrassment; humiliation: If you do that, you’ll end up with egg on your face. lay an egg Informal To fail, especially in a public performance. put/have all (one’s) eggs in one basket… Informal, To risk everything on a single venture. etc

327. nigel harris price - April 20, 2009


No….I didn’t lie. It’s just that, even though the body is tired and the eyes are sore to sleepiness, I put my head on the pillow and am kept awake by Mandalic Imagery and visions of Wormy Creatures in Baba’s garden…let alone the dialogue which is up full-volume in some part of my aching brain. Cup of hot beverage, a ‘ciggy’, then try again to nod off…..or sink, I hope, into REM…..I am not sure if I go into deep, no-dream, muscle-relaxing sleep any more!…..Nigel.

328. nigel harris price - April 20, 2009

Post 327

At least I am losing concentration and messing up the post numbers…Nigel.

329. nigel harris price - April 20, 2009

“A drowsy humour beckons me to bed”…..didn’t realise at the time…..it’s pentametric…must be “Shakespeare, and not cocaine, but maybe too much dopamine, runnin’ around my brain”…..Nigel.

330. fofblogmoderator - April 20, 2009

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