jump to navigation

Fellowship Of Friends Discussion – Part 68 March 16, 2009

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
trackback

Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, taking up too much space, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban or a leave of absence from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. Jomo Piñata - March 16, 2009

“Pathway to Presence” “Practicing Presence–A Fourth Way Approach” — Don’t get snookered by this pseudo-religious confidence game. You will be exploited for large amounts of money and sexual favors before being ostracized after you refuse further exploitation!

2. underneath - March 16, 2009

This is what is really happening beyond all the angelic smiles and the talk of ‘presence’…

This is what current Fellowship of Friends members are actually paying for…

Robert Burton has the fooled them all so that he can get this:

Inner circle facts Says:
March 1st, 2007 at 8:25 am
Are you ready for some brutal facts?
Who would like to know how its really happening in his bad room? OK folks,fasten your sit belts,the Kansas going Bye Bye…
Did you know that usual orgies are formed from 4 to 6 student?.Usually two of them are SIMULTANEOUSLY entering Burton’s anus.Third person is laying on his back while Mr.Burton is providing him an oral sex while two from both sides are subject to the masturbation by MR.Burton with his two hands.
Some time there is one more student who’s role is to hold Burton’s testicles in his mouth during the whole time.Prior to all, by Burton’s request Viagra pills are shared and swallowed between all members of the orgy which are constantly provided by Mr.G.
Some time you can hear Burton’s words during the sexual activities “How incredible! We are getting closer,aren’t we?”
Some of them are asked to suck his nipples and his toes.All sperm gets swallowed by Mr.Burton at the end of the act.But that is not all yet.
There are two students who had the most terrifying and most humiliating role to play (in my opinion).They have to enter with their hands by their elbows into the Burton’s anus.(Looking for Consciousness perhaps)..both students are Russians.One of them had left the school and the other has been “shipped” back to Russia for disobedience.
And now get this:
Beside those depraved scenes there is another one which going to shake you all:
There is another act that Burton is preforming with a specific student of his own “inner circle”.This act of Humiliation is performed in his bath room while Burton is laying down and 3 students are urinating right on him!
And on the next morning,like nothing happened Mr.Burton is leading the meeting on Love?
How cynical indeed!

3. Jomo Piñata - March 16, 2009

Stress May Cause The Brain To Become Disconnected

ScienceDaily (Mar. 16, 2009) — Does stress damage the brain? In the March 1st issue of Biological Psychiatry a paper by Tibor Hajszan and colleagues provides an important new chapter to this question:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090316075845.htm

4. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - March 17, 2009

Eerily quiet on the blog today!

5. veramente - March 17, 2009

Time for a movie then…

From YES by Sally Potter (awesome movie)

6. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - March 17, 2009

For all those interested J Battaglia has passed away. I will put more information on the GF site as I receive it.

7. Ellen - March 17, 2009

Thanks very much, Suzy. Sober news for my morning cup of tea. I’ll check GFoF. I knew he was ill, but not terminally so.

8. nigel harris price - March 17, 2009

I ‘googled’ – “Death is an Illusion”, trying to find the little poem of that name to post as a ‘little farewell to the spirit realm’ to James, but found this –

“But where do we come from?

The Creator desired a companion to share the cosmos, so like a cell divides, it manifested, with love, a perfect image of itself, another divine One. This newly born Creator manifested into the many spirits of which we are each one, and each of us, AT THE CORE OF OUR BEING, is a perfect image of the One we call God. Hence the Bible in Genesis states we were “created in the image of God.” This is why various followers of many religions ritualistically bow to each person they meet; they bow to the PURE SPIRIT WITHIN.

We are the “children of God,” as most religions tell us.

As “children of God” we were sent to explore our Creator’s universe with the purpose to study and learn from it, and when ready, TO HELP ITS COMPLETION. We are to enjoy and learn from the beauty of our Creator’s cosmos, then to manifest our evolving inner beauty, as does the seed when it eventually becomes a flower. For some of us spirits, however, the learning experience was not smooth, particularly when we came into the earth’s sphere. This is where we became “fallen angels” – spirits, lost in the material world.”

May we all return to our joyful God-like state…..Nigel.

9. Mick Danger - March 17, 2009

RE: Jomo No. 2
“I think this life is affecting my brain.”
-Ray Davies (The Kinks)

10. ton - March 17, 2009

nigel re: ‘children of god’ — another example of how ideas can be co-opted, used and abused by a destructive cult:

http://www.factnet.org/cults/children_of_god/index.html

11. elena - March 17, 2009

Thanks Veramente,

That was veramente welcome!

And Ton, Thanks for the link. This caught my attention:
“I must have had a frightful look on my face because Uriah said quite angrily, “Sister, if you feel God`s children should be eating better, maybe the Lord expects you to do something with your idea and get us all some better food!”

This is when my new ministry began as “Provisioner”, which is another way of saying raiser of donations.

Starting the next day, I was dressed up in a dress, allowed to shave my legs, wear nylons, fix my hair and loaded into the van to go to the local market place to raise donations of food.

I was a cute, slim 18 year old, happy-faced girl who was telling these merchants that if they would give us a crate of tomatoes or apples, to help our Christian organisation, God would bless them. I told them we were young Christians trying to get the kids off drugs and into worshipping Jesus and leading clean lives instead.

I actually believed every word of this when I was telling them. I also truly believed these fellow brethren deserved to eat clean healthy food, so I was pretty convincing. We were greatly blessed to say the least. The local business men were very happy to help us and even told us to come back from now on each week.

Never once, did I get any credit for this however, it was simply the Lord working through me to provide for His family. It was right for me to accept this humbly and not expect praise.”

So much like the Fellowship in which people are taught to feel guilty about the natural interchange of love and life; so guilty, that they are then unwilling to love no matter how much love they receive long after they leave the cult!

The inability to experience love is what sexual perverts like Robert Burton express in their extreme craving. They look for satisfaction in the body to compensate for the emptiness in the soul, that is in their emotional personal and social life. The intensity of the body experience momentarily compensates for the intensity of the loneliness but in the long run increases the gap between him and the world. The lust expressed in the gold alchemy of the Fellowship is also an aspect of this: It over emphasizes the external world to compensate for the nothingness of its inner world. Robert has it in him but those who follow him resonate with it. The more time members spend in that environment the more they incarnate Robert’s suffering deepening and reproducing the causes of the suffering. He is reproducing the same conditioning externally as he suffers internally even though he is “loved”. His inability to perceive the love externalizes in having to get more and more “proof” of it by demanding more and more sacrifices and unconditionalities from the members. His inability TO BE, to experience his own life and self, drives him to experience it through the member’s capitulation of their own self.

The members, who themselves carry the same fears and lack of love in varying degrees, in a time and a world in which that is the rule, incarnate the guru’s suffering as if it were their own. They project on each other their losses and commit to “cleaning them up”.

On the one hand the member carries his or her own failed life and on the other his or her successful cult life while the guru has given up his life for the successful life of the members and everyone commits to the “successful life”. The image of that is what members pay for. Their own misery justifies “the play” even if the play is the cause of their misery. It is not “perceived” as such. The life in the cult is perceived as a relief to the suffering with which they already came with and run away from. The guru incarnates that suffering which he is supposed to have already conquered and has the right and duty to enact it, to remind them of what they are running away from. He is “prized” with the right to take everything from the members who perceive it as a blessing! The blessing of not having to deal with their lives. That is what the member pays for: a uniformly conditioned life in which everything is perfect!. In his abuse, which is perceived as a blessing, the guru reminds them of what they run away from and in the secure life within the cult, decorating with flowers what they are trying to hide they perceive relief from the suffering even though it is simply conditioned behaviour. If they can minimize the intellectual confrontation with their inner reality through the repetition of the doctrine and the confrontation with external reality by living in a secluded environment, they can spend a lifetime of lifelessness until the cult implodes and they all commit suicide because the Gods so wish it.

If people behave as if they were “well”, they perceive themselves as if they were well! The innumerable exercises about looking good impose the pattern. Physicality has that power and in the “form” they sacrifice the perception of their inner state that simply adapts. The physical world conquers the inner life and the individual continues to function without one! The “form” takes over. The more they sacrifice them selves, the more power amasses the guru, the more he can condition the form and adapt and readapt the member’s behaviour until putting young boys in his bed is perceived as the sacrifice of the lamb to a God.

Talk about madness dears!

12. veramente - March 17, 2009

5. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup

wow! I knew James B.
Did not know he passed away. His Spirit is flying high into the light and past all the personal illusions. James was a brave and kind man.

13. veramente - March 17, 2009

wakeuplittlesuzywakeup,
it seems a coincidence, did you see the link I posted last night?
post # 4

14. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - March 17, 2009

Yes. Did you see the one I posted before it?

15. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - March 17, 2009

Veramente: His family called me yesterday. It is brand new information for me and I will post it as soon as I get more information on GF site. JB and I have been close friends for years. I will miss him. Thanks.

16. veramente - March 17, 2009

13 wakeuplittlesuzywakeup
Yes I did. I thought the blog is going through another low ebb.

On this subject I personally feel I emptied my emotional load connected to the FOF. I keep reading the blog though and am glad it is here for people to read if they are thinking of joining or leaving.
There is much truth in here. The bare facts are real.

17. WhaleRider - March 17, 2009

veramente and suzy:
I love when the blog goes silent, like at the end of a day, when there is nothing more to say…you turn off the light, get in bed, pull the covers up, and close your eyes for awhile. That’s when you are suddenly made aware of your own breath, and you listen for the “things” that go bump in the night. Maybe it’s just the house settling…maybe it’s the mice or the wind…or maybe it’s the dead bringing us back to life.

Thanks, James B. Rest in peace. That was a perfect ending.

18. nigel harris price - March 17, 2009

16 whalerider
“…..or maybe it’s the dead bringing us back to life.”

You do not know how much meaning, whalerider, you have brought to the word ‘CONNECT’ – not in the way, in the FOF, when we tried to do ‘intellectual contortions’ and ‘be emotional’ with our (false, dare I say it) personalities. No, I mean in the way, even on or through this blogsite, connections are made IN A UNIVERSAL WAY. And so a little story (true, it is) about the last couple of days…..

Last week, I went through a trial of student absenteeism, losing me half of my regular business income. I had to go to my dad’s house to borrow £30 to put food in my fridge on Saturday. This week, a new student called Zoe Keeping (seriously! – how about meaning ‘Householder of Heavenly Light’? – is C—–a H—n tuning in here?) joined our steadily growing group. She is, by body-type, a Lunar-Venusian-Mercury, but mainly Venusian – receptive and ready to apply techniques I teach. Now the semiotic part – she was wearing a black coat (God’s mantle of invisibility) with a red-and-gold lining (England’s royalty). She removed it to reveal a purple top covering a yellow T-shirt (yellow and purple are the colours that my mother instated for the cub-scout group she set up many years ago when I was a teenager, and also the colours of the irises I place on her grave, either on her birthday or Mothering Sunday). My mother used to say to me – “That wee gal is out somewhere waiting for you’ – and her mother, my maternal grand-mother, said once “Wha’s fur ya, weel ne’er go by ya”. I have received feedback from Zoe’s work-friend, another emotionally-centred Mars-Jovial – that she got a huge ‘high’ from her first class and thought that I was ‘welcoming’. This possibility is better than anything that has happened romantically in my life so far. Normally, the feedback ‘peters out’ as soon as I start ‘working on it’. I will keep you posted on that one (Elena, especially – heart and head, first – the two ‘black’ suites will follow). Elena, you posted (Goethe) – “Colours are the suffering of Light”. In the asylum once, I thought – “Colours of flowers are the Souls of the Dead exuding towards us”.

(veramente) James B.’s soul “is flying into the Light” (dedication)

(paraphrase) Walt Whitman “The mearest tuft of grass proves that there is really no death or, that if there were, it led forward to something else.”

…..Nigel.

19. nigel harris price - March 17, 2009

Dearest whalerider

No need to worry! Quivering a little higher than level. Meds as usual tonight. Alison Shellock GP to visit tomorrow morning (work half-day)
…..Nigel.

20. nigel harris price - March 18, 2009

A little of what I feel at the present time…..Nigel.

Selections from W B Yeats poetry.

Come near, that no more blinded by man’s fate,
I find under the boughs of love and hate,
In all poor foolish things that live a day,
Eternal beauty wandering on her way.

(To the Rose upon the Rood of Time)

What matter if I live it all once more?
Endure that toil of growing up;
The ignominy of boyhood; the distress
Of boyhood changing into man;
The unfinished man and his pain
Brought face to face with his own clumsiness;

(A Dialogue of Self and Soul)

21. nigel harris price - March 18, 2009

This quote from W B Yeats may seem simple, but it is mighty…..

“By experience, the soul comes to realise that it is self-affrighting, self-delighting”

…..Nigel.

22. Jomo Piñata - March 18, 2009

Has anyone seen the film Running With Scissors?

23. James Mclemore - March 18, 2009

21. Jomo Piñata

Yes. I also read “Magical Thinking”, and have just started “Possible Side Effects”, which are both by the author of the book they made the movie from. His name is Augusten Burroughs. He apparently came from an extremely dysfunctional family of origen. He is also a very funny man.

24. Crouching Tiger - March 18, 2009

Elena,

“The inability to experience love is what sexual perverts like Robert Burton express in their extreme craving. They look for satisfaction in the body to compensate for the emptiness in the soul…”

I very much doubt that the kind of satisfaction Burton is getting is either physical or sexual in origin. If it was, it would be much more simple and undemanding. It probably has its origins in some kind of mental-emotional complex. That’s where complications start, not in the body. The body is just ‘you’ before you acquire anything else.

Nigel.

“Normally, the feedback ‘peters out’ as soon as I start ‘working on it’. I will keep you posted on that one (Elena, especially – heart and head, first – the two ‘black’ suites will follow). Elena, you posted (Goethe) – “Colours are the suffering of Light”. In the asylum once, I thought – “Colours of flowers are the Souls of the Dead exuding towards us”.”

Keep your feet on the ground there man! The two black suits won’t ‘follow’, they are one-third of your real life… Stay in touch with them!

25. Crouching Tiger - March 18, 2009

Elena,

“If they can minimize the intellectual confrontation with their inner reality through the repetition of the doctrine and the confrontation with external reality by living in a secluded environment, they can spend a lifetime of lifelessness until the cult implodes and they all commit suicide because the Gods so wish it.

If people behave as if they were “well”, they perceive themselves as if they were well! The innumerable exercises about looking good impose the pattern. Physicality has that power and in the “form” they sacrifice the perception of their inner state that simply adapts. The physical world conquers the inner life and the individual continues to function without one! The “form” takes over.”

I’m not so sure about all of this. Yes, the form takes over. But the key issue for me was that something felt very wrong after a while. It was more an emotional perception or sense than an ‘intellectual confrontation’ of my experience in the fellowship. The reason people in the school lack conscience is not because of a lack of mind activity. Quite the opposite. If you recall the posts from the FoF defenders in this Blog, like DC, they were usually highly intellectualized. What most people on the Blog sensed though, IMO, was that they were disconnected – it was reason in the abstract, not connected to either the feelings (except in one or two cases) or the body. That made them suspect.

26. nigel harris price - March 18, 2009

23/24 Crouching Tiger

You are right about the body – I do my sitting down and slowly breathing, hands on legs and ‘feeling the situation/scenery’ exercise regularly throughout the day – thanks for reminding me…..Nigel.

27. One from the fence - March 18, 2009

I am Jason, who once was Isaac (my middle name) when in the F O F. I met Elena, frequenter of this blog, and Girard’s wife when Girard came to the NY center on the night of a blue moon in February, must have been 1998 or 1999. She gave an angle about how vanity can sometimes create more vanity through fear of being vain, but it doesn’t have to (indicating to me from across the room with a smile). I rode in a taxi with you both on the way to the Met museum. I had insane, loud, forceful, repetitive inner vocalizations all the way there- very embarrasing. I walked with Girard and others much of the day. That day I began, for better or for worse, to call myself “Jason” again, my first name, because I felt I had neglected my essence. By half a year before 9/11, I could not afford my teaching payments, let alone my emotional payments and was told I could not attend meetings. Harvey Helms broke the news. I got off the phone with him and openly sobbed in front of my boss, who thought I was crying because I could not make a sale:-) I won’t go into a tirade against myself about the person I was, or how I could not be what I felt that I could in the way I felt I could be it (although in that was much ego and frailty), but I was an emotional wreck at the time. Now, the child part of me feels that if it could meet now any who struggled with (or against) me then, they would feel proud of me, commend me for my efforts, etc.:-) I am so glad I left, as it was in my nature to fight for relationships until they combust completely on their own.
I would have died there because I could not un-attach myself from what I needed to un-attach myself from. It was an act of mercy that I could not make those payments. I was too immature to be all that it is within me to be. (and that is one of the greatest lures of God- we are shown what we could be, (blushingly, “who… me?) and can only become our great selves when we devour our self-love (a la the JG Bennett comments about it).

It is a glorious image and I felt I witnessed it at times: a crowd of people in one room, each standing on their own two feet, peering through their own two eyes, witnessing this timeless moment full of abundant truth, irony, love, being both separate and together, leaning not toward each other for support, and ready to help another stand in case they suddenly fall; that judging others in a way that closes the heart even for a moment is widely acknowledged as sleep and thus unacceptable. That there is a Great Teacher, profound in his wisdom, dynamic , deep, tireless and bold in his being, guiding us all as though we were his own body within the light of many angels, a veritable Ark of light, an Ark whose only destination is Now. It is a possibility, to have had this, but then, the dark side: we bring to the teaching all of our own weaknesses, our herd mentality, our suggestibility, our features, and we are not permanently conscious, and we might do more harm then good for others because to do real good requires consciousness, and we are too lazy, or too tired, or too forgetful to be conscious as we need to. And, most of all perhaps, our work was to work through the negativities of ours that Influence C pressed out of us in order to quickly transform them in the moment and harmoniously be, despite what negativities other’s presented us- it was our job to confront the truth and kiss it on the mouth.

Reading this blog and hearing the descriptions of falsity amongst the members of the FOF, I have been relieved of much pent up anger as well as feelings of guilt about said anger. It was hard for me more than most anything to admit that I had been wronged as much as I had done wrong, although I was so entrenched in negativity and hurt from my experiences that preceded my arrival there that Influence C used and abused me in order to show others, like I was a television that sat barely breathing in the same room as them, false personality. As such, I was part of the school. I did have good moments, but they were few, and with certain of them, I am unsure I understand their indications or especially their applications- but higher truths are irrelevant to the body, and I think that might be the whole “body” conflict in a nutshell (see below). “Always,” I remind myself if I try to generalize a revelation according to time, “it is of the moment I found it in.”

Two things from the FOF that initially caused trouble for me and divided me against myself: the idea of having a contentious relationship with the body so much so that one would be afraid to talk or even acknowledge it only seems to make presence impossible; and cynicism toward Jesus Christ (who is the God who awakened me in the first place, brought me there, and showed me on my Journey that I am one and that Love is above all things my truest aim). The closed, cynical face many of the members offered me also added to my distortions (although certain of the students showed me more love and efforts toward me than perhaps was worth it for them to make- I hope nothing is lost, only gained). It seemed like no one wanted to talk about the body, and everything was blamed on the King of Clubs, which was more than likely my “center of gravity”- pretty tricky! I had to learn about it by hearing how “bad” it is rather than what functions and wisdom could be understood by accepting and learning gently guide a body with it in it. Also, equally troubling, was the relationship toward “Life,” which basically mirrored the relationship with the body, contentious, divisive- for how can we love the world if we leave out any part of it? Love God if we do not love the world which surely exists as a mirror and hologram both to ourselves and to the Higher world/s above us? And when I asked students how to “be in life” I felt I was viewed as a dissenter. I can accept this in part as certain excerpts of the Koran I have understood to separate the reader from sinfulness. The positioning of the words “They” and “We” in those passages seemed to me the sword of Allah severing his child from sin. John W.’s comments on the previous page have given me much to think about, although it is in question as to whether I am a mature student or not. It is possible I am. My self love and vanity obstruct this, certainly, still. This is not self-deprecation- I have been quickly negated too many times by the furious onslaught of self-love. I am PRAYING for the dissolution of my ego. I feel I know how Jesus felt before John baptised Him.

As I have verified that certain spiritual experiences I had were real and also unique, there must, then, have been something real about the Teacher, Influence C, and the aim of the school whether that has been lost or sidetracked… or not. Also in abundance, if it were real, must have been heinous, egoic mind-serving misunderstandings amongst the students both toward their own work and toward their understandings of the teacher and the angels. And if the teacher is real, he does very little to make knowing him easy. I certainly experienced moments as by mysterious grace (with out a thought, I was awake, and receiving the indications of angels- objective truth, questioning me, testing my being as I sat alone in a diner- and where I stopped, my work, my challenges began). And rare moments: In the air, in precise accordance with my guided thoughts, swift golden triads completing). Yet everyone offered their own particular misunderstandings and formatory interpretations about well, everything (according to their body types/CoG). If only I had been more assertive to know that dogma was not real and should be questioned vigorously until proven, that even if someone got angry at me if I gently challenge them, they and I had a better chance of awakening by the challenge. Nothing, nothing is worse for the soul than believing in a lie.

I find in this blog and in recollection amongst many of the members of the FOF an adherence to “mind” no less common than in life, but often more vigorous. And I kick myself, because I had a real opportunity had I not been so easily “blindsided” by people in and out of the school, by their aggressive expectations of compliance. Where is the attempt here to discover objective truth as it relates to ourselves? Surely the school did not remove that quest from you? Sometimes the attempt to say objective truths sound really very corny and simple- it evades me now as I speak of it. Eckhart Tolle, (who I have loved of late and explained (in my opinion) the implications of the Fourth Way more simply and clearly than any one I have heard yet) described humorously and touchingly the idea of the Second Coming of Christ. What could He say but “I am here. I love you. You are Love. We are all one.”) Isn’t the Truth what all of you and myself still so furiously seek? It is obvious, more than obvious, that so much suffering preceded these blog entries and that such polarized thinking as I have found here (efforts made “against, against, against”) can be forgiven in shade of the effort to at last heal oneself of the painful self-divisions created and allowed by ourselves, the teacher, and friends; and hopefully one day, in this lifetime or additional ones, we will at last integrate and adore all sides of ourselves unendingly and at last be permanent Love.
It is March 17, 2009. I am not broken. I am wiser and more capable than ever, and possibly, now, more simple. I am not without the company of God who like a whisper that is always speaking, softening me if I listen, if I rest mind mind to listen, instructs me to be.

28. anna - March 18, 2009

Hello Crouching Tiger,

I think that Robert Burton minimised the importance of the so called ‘moving and instinctive centres’ because he did not want US to serve our own. Instead he wanted us to put all our energy in to serving HIS own moving and instictive centres.

He disguised these in expensive ‘refined’ clothing and luxury which he attributed to his ’emotional centre’; he disguised his greed as a museum; and he disguised his sadistic sexual perversion as ‘suffering which will help his students to evolve’.

The so called ‘form of the school’ developed as a way to satisfy these warped needs, in a way which the followers could not instantly object to.

Cheers

29. Mick Danger - March 18, 2009

There’s still time to own up, Bobby.
Why does this Hitler guy keep coming up?

“Adolph Hitler had committed suicide on April 30, 1945, knowing Berlin was about to be captured by the Allies. Later, Baba expressed his disappointment that Hitler had killed himself and had not faced the consequences of his actions, as other Nazi leader were forced to do.”
Note: This refers to the Nazis who were tried and hanged at Nuremberg for war crimes. As related by Meher Baba to Padri after the Nuremberg trial was over (November 1945 to October 1946), instead of committing suicide, it would have benefitted Adolf Hitler had he stood trial before the world and faced the consequences of his actions. Mussolini faced trial and public execution in 1945. Meher Baba’s comments about Hitler (1889-1945), such as “his name will be immortal,” meaning it would live on in history, were only in comparison to other past world conquerors such as Alexander III the Great (356-323 B.C.), Julius Caesar (102?-44 B.C.), Attila the Hun (died 453? A.D.), Jenghis Khan (1167-1227), Tamerlane (1336-1405), Sultans of the Ottoman Empire Muhammed II (1389?-1421) and Sulayman I the Magnificient (1494-1566), Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821) and others. In the Master’s terms of humor and sarcasm, if doctors were “barbers” (butchers), such conquerors or “war lords” were “thugs.” – Lord Meher Vol. 8

30. elena - March 18, 2009

23.

Hi Crouching Tiger,

Thank you for considering the subject.

It seems we are saying the same thing because the “origin in some kind of mental-emotional complex” is what I’m referring to when I say that it is the inability to experience love what induces the excesses in other centres. The lack of connectedness between the world and one’s self in any of its areas seems to expresses itself in our multiple inconsistencies. In cases as extreme as Robert’s the frantic momentum towards sexual “expiation” seems to be trying to balance the dissatisfaction. In the acceptance of sex by the boy Robert thoroughly justifies the practice and in some aspect of the act they give each other to each other. That is what he is after: approval! That is in fact what everyone is after: affirmation, approval, acknowledgement, acceptance, recognition of one’s being by the other. That recognition has been lost in the west but in India and other third world countries people simply greet each other with their hands together and acknowledge each other’s presence. In the West people think that being professionals means that they take no one into account unless he is someone to boss around or someone to be bossed around by! “Equality” as human beings doesn’t exist anymore!

Going back to Robert, the body tries to compensate for the imbalances and what over stated sex or infra-sex is trying to do is compensate for the incapacity to feel emotional contact. It is trying to compensate for the emotional frigidity in one’s social and personal life. Healthy people do not show these excesses. The way in which things turn upside down and forward from centre to centre like the visual phenomenon in our eyes is almost clear when you consider that possibility: extremely poor emotional life being compensated by overstated sexual life through the body. Unfortunately most of our mechanisms to compensate deepen the imbalance. We need healthy, normal, free communities to keep referencing us back into “normality”. What is great and beautiful about the blog is that even if individually we are quite imbalanced, together we are still able to check each other’s excesses. That is what you did to me and for that I am deeply grateful! That is what we’ve been doing with each other for a long time!

Please take these ideas on Robert with a bag full of salt! They are my intuitions today and maybe they carry a bit of truth from the little I’ve studied other people but mostly from living with my husband who had similar conditions and from observing other people as much as my self. These things happen on many levels and intensities which is what makes the excesses more obvious.

Crouching Tiger: Keep your feet on the ground there man! The two black suits won’t ‘follow’, they are one-third of your real life… Stay in touch with them!

Unlike you I do not believe the body predominates over the emotional and intellectual or moving centre and the I. These is, of course a huge subject but if we just tackle it from two perspectives we might begin it. The body springs from Earth with all that Earth means but with all its grandeur it will remain in Earth. The other aspect is that the body is determined by our psychological life. Emotional suffering as much as joy are imprinted in our body from early childhood and these express themselves faithfully in our physical expression. They become locked with it. In physical therapy, psychoanalysts have shown that becoming aware of where the lock in the body is found, can unlock the psychological memory of the incident that produced the knot but that doesn’t mean that the knot comes from the body but that it locked itself in the body. There is a beautiful book on how the body bears with our soul life called “The Way of illness” that might bring you and I to a closer understanding of where we are each looking from.

24. Crouching Tiger: “I’m not so sure about all of this. Yes, the form takes over. But the key issue for me was that something felt very wrong after a while. It was more an emotional perception or sense than an ‘intellectual confrontation’ of my experience in the fellowship. The reason people in the school lack conscience is not because of a lack of mind activity.”

Mind activity in the Fellowship of Friends is controlled thinking. Members are not supposed to think about them selves, their lives or the world at large. They are supposed to repeat the sequence or the stereotyped quotes, the dogmatic ideas given by Girard justifying the status quo and the idea of being present. This is not thinking freely, it is imposed indoctrination. As long as members can stay within its frames, they do not confront their situation with the wider reality of existence and stay put within the framework of the Fellowship living for THE FORM which assures them that everything is O.K. because it looks O.K.

What is so interesting about Cults is that they have managed to control people, enslave people and put them to work for the guru’s interests without forceful or violent imposition. Cults have managed what no politician ever succeeded in: unconditional passive submission.

When the process of disappearing from one’s life reaches its full development, suicide is a perfectly coherent external act with what has happened within one’s being. It is not the body what kills itself, it’s the lack of a self in it what lets it die.

I need to run and cannot make corrections or shorten. Please excuse me. Thanks.

31. WhaleRider - March 18, 2009

Nigel:
I once had a client who was suffering from Bi-Polar Disorder. He told me he had learned the following grounding technique from his therapist to use when he was experiencing a flight of ideas in a manic episode, in addition to taking his meds: He’d sit down in private and peel a lemon. He’d squeeze the juice on his hand and then close his eyes and smell the lemon fragrance, deeply, a few times. Then he’d put the tip of one of his lemony fingers onto his tongue to fully experience the lemon’s tartness. Focusing on the intense, overwhelming sourness of the lemon worked wonders to calm him down, take his mind out of future tripping or worrying about the past, and help him get back into the present, which was his intention. After that, he said even the sight or thought of lemons would trigger increased self-awareness.

32. brucelevy - March 18, 2009

33. brucelevy - March 18, 2009
nowassitall – watch more funny videos
34. fofblogmoderator - March 18, 2009

2 & 27 are newly moderated

35. nigel harris price - March 18, 2009

28 Anna

I have this sneaking suspicion that REB is actually centred in the King of Clubs – young, male students feeding his bodily appetites. How many others have had a feeling that REB was cold and imposing when they were in his presence. Having greed and dominance features just intensifies the disgust most of us now hold him in…..Nigel.

36. nigel harris price - March 18, 2009

31 whalerider

See-do really is a ‘grounding principle’ that helps me stay well. When I go over-hypo-manic there is a tendency for attention to drift away from the present environment and, as you mentioned, go towards ‘future tripping’ (an excellent turn of phrase, I may add!). I think the feeling is – slow down and expand in the moment, rather than speed up and narrow into psychosis. In any case, thank you for your concern – I learn from every episode of mood-swing…..Nigel.

37. elena - March 19, 2009

Whether we now worship science, or organized religion, or political ideologies as the perceptual systems which tell us who we are and how things work, it all comes down to the same issue: power. Do we have the personal power to take responsibility for our own lives, or do we give that authority away to others and to their belief systems, in the vain hope that these assumedly more powerful others will do for us what we must each do for ourselves in order to be healthy, functional human beings.

John-Michael Battaglia From the orgonomy list.

One from the Fence, I was just about to send this in when I found your post. Thank you for sharing. What you’re standing for is something I’d be happy to stand next to and still we can have a lot of fun childfully struggling with each other as we become like one! There is much to learn from our differences. All our inner longings are wonderfully confronted when we share and enough autumn leaves are shed for a deep winter to follow before the spring actually comes! I’m also very glad that the economy spared you from the Fellowship’s fangs.

You ask about seeking unity still and such mysticism is now out of my reach! I want to sow! To play with clay and colours, to build things and understand a car and an airplane! A computer and a telephone! I want to talk with you every day! When I get old and time comes to die, I want to die in life’s arms! Die willingly after having lived!. There’s beautiful great knowledge out here without one needing to join groups to find it and if one can’t trust one’s self enough, it doesn’t matter how many true or false gurus one meets, one’s I will continue to shrink until it disappears or moves on to feed somebody else’s life. We are all one already but that oneness doesn’t get hung up in our individual losses. One can’t get to one’s self walking on somebody else’s I!

The blog has helped me in two years more than the Fellowship in seventeen! Just being with people willing to insult one when one is stupid enough is a great thing!

Welcome to the Public Square where you don’t need to pay to be with a group of people who are now as good at detecting bullshit from anybody as they were bad at it in the Fellowship!!!
But never take it personally, specially your own bullshit! When people here take a huge chunk of it off, know that it never belonged to us (or to you if you prefer!). People are the seasons that help one shed the leaves. As we move on we might be able to detect each other’s beauty just as powerfully! We might actually flower in spring! It’s worth staying for a little while just because letters like yours remind us who we are!

38. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

37 elena

“We might actually flower in spring!”

You are so right…..Nigel.

39. One from the fence - March 19, 2009

I am exceedingly touched by your comments, Elena, and thank you. I was stung by feelings of my own hypocracy after I posted mine, and am relieved to have been received with kind, encouraging eyes.
My thoughts revolved around returning to the FOF for many years after I was asked to leave. Of course I had to transform feelings of “revengeful victory against those who doubted me,” amongst all sorts of other identifications and attachments about the school. Most of all, I need to be able to NOT BE VIOLENTLY ANGRY INSIDE when a student slights me, to love my enemy and know that the enemy is within, my own ego attachments/imaginary picture without which compassion would flow freely through me.

I have moved 3,000 miles across the continent and it seems, in doing such I have come closer to my goal of returning. At the same time, so many illusions I was under are being relieved from me, through help from this blog as well as simple growth, simple consciousness on my own part and through the help of God, or angels (or what!)

I am concerned about the Teacher especially. At the same time, I feel he has been with me the whole time! And I do not know how to reconcile all of this. I verified Influence C. I verified that Robert is conscious, as far as I could. Whether it is possible to be both conscious and a dangerous egotist, (like a sun that has dark encrustations inhibiting its expulsion of light…), I don’t know- I suspect it IS possible and quite dangerous if it happens, i.e. if ego returns to the conscious man unbeknownst to him, or if there was something that never was conscious in an otherwise conscious man. I myself have gone through many rationalizations about his infamous activities. One of them (one I have not as of now ruled out) is that he must suffer according to his sexuality because our current age demands it’s consciousness due to a generally, er, warped relationship toward sex in our current world. That in bringing sexuality to light, suffering because of it, he is transforming our sex into, well, what it’s most optimal function is. And of course it is completely ‘out of the box,’ it is everything a spiritual teacher “should” not do; and it is a challenge to his students to pay less attention to “Robert” (Robert, the illusion) than to his consciousness, our consciousness, our presence, his presence. And it makes it impossible for us to emulate him when we should be ourselves outright. At the same time! It feels definitely less than clean, and I in my fragility NEED a clean teaching. At the beginning, the first time I saw a picture of him, I was repelled a little bit and feel that maybe “he” was challenging me to live outside of all I had thought true before to live actually truth in myself. But maybe all I thought was ‘his indications” was actually my own consciousness/conscience guiding me the whole time. I have never felt love for the man; I have come close to being actually able to say, “I love Robert” sincerely, but this effort felt reminiscent of the book 1984 where at the end, the main character, at last “Loved Big Brother.” If Love between individuals happens, it is not through effort, it IS. I trust his words, actually, to have much truth and am not cynical at all toward many of the examples of hypocracy and egomania (i.e. the sufi poet’s “cuteness,” void of the tremendous shocks that would indicate a real school) that have been hung out to dry on this blog- rather, I found, well, enlightenment in them, in their way. I accepted that he is “King” amongst us. When I met him, I realized a part of me was awake the entire evening despite obvious turmoil in my lower centers. My observation of his attention: he does not move. I witnessed his awareness/attention/consciousness (a light and awareness that filled the met operah) through octave after octave and saw that no matter what “I’s” there were, he did not bend to them; he carried himself through the interval no matter how convincing it might have been to, well, believe in the i’s. This is what is so disturbing. I would love to be able to just put it down, say that he is not good, and, relieved, live my life without a thought of returning to the Fellowship again. But I am unable to do that. I am consulting my conscience; I am turning on (seemingly after a dozen years) the part of my awareness that filters all information to see if it is true/eternal.

And I feel I am quite naive, having had little exposure to him, and most of the people on this blog knew of him and his teaching for huge parts of their lives. And I wonder: (big touchy question, here, please do not feel offended) if all of you have failed (pause, breathing, smiling kindly) could I have done any better considering the incredible reams of denying force that a student in the FOF is challenged by.

40. Yesri Baba - March 19, 2009

One from the fence-

Dude, are you for real?

I would be lying and a hypocrite if I said I never entertained some of the thoughts you are expressing.

How I ever got through such monumental retardation is perplexing.
I think it was a little study and some perseverance.

Fortunately my failure is complete.

41. One from the fence - March 19, 2009

Your “failure” will be complete when you are no longer hurting. I recognize the tenderness of this subject, or maybe I could have been more tender. I will not allow myself to become polarized with anyone in this blog. You are all my brothers and sisters, how could you not be after the experiences we have shared- really who else in the world could even discuss such bizzarity from personal experience?! We are honored to have even had these experiences and none of us are ruined because of it. It is something added to our lives, to our fate or destiny and we have done it. Only, this brother might continue on that way if I am convinced by my own conscience to travel it.

42. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

39/41 One from the fence
40 Yesri Baba

Maybe, One from the fence, you have not learnt or grown into human maturity from your experiences within the FOF (and also about REB). My guilt about not being able to keep current with ‘teaching payments’ (in other words, donations to REB’s lifestyle) led to a serious, and almost successful, suicide attempt. It took me over 3 years after ‘being released’ to realise that there is a beauty in ordinary humanity, along with the ability to follow one’s own evolution, without a sick cult. I am not out to ‘polarize with you’, but stand my ground in firm neutrality about the possibilities that lie ahead for all those who can untangle themselves from the FOF…..Nigel.

43. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

39/41 One from the fence

And don’t give us any crap about REB as a conscious, loving father figure! Just think about that Austrian ‘monster’ in the news…..Nigel.

44. Yesri Baba - March 19, 2009

41 One from the fence

Let’s see, I was in the FOF 4 years ending 29 yrs. ago. You are obviously much more intelligent, sensitive and awake than I am. I probably just wasn’t ‘school’ material. I get the same sense of lacking in most of the other posters here, they just don’t get it.

It is an honor that someone like you can bring some balance and insight to those who spent 15 to 30 yrs. inside this organization.

45. Wouldnt You Like To Know - March 19, 2009

Jason, it is lovely that you come here to write of your experiences, but, they seem reminiscent of Jason and the quest of the Golden Fleece. Sure, Jason was, so to speak, fleeced. But as Thomas Bulfinch writes in: The Age of Fable or Stories of Gods and Heroes [Familiarly called: Bulfinch’s Mythology]: ‘What became of the fleece afterwards we do not know, but perhaps it was found after all, like many other golden prizes, not worth the trouble it had cost to procure it.’

‘This is one of those mythological tales, says a late writer, in which there is reason to believe that a substratum of truth exists, though overlaid by a mass of fiction. It probably was the first important maritime expedition, and like the first attempts of the kind of all nations, as we know from history, was probably of a half-piratical character. If rich spoils were the result it was enough to give rise to the idea of the golden fleece.’

Me thinks thou art a Pollywog, thinking thyself a Shellback. Look that up on Wikipedia, if you do not know the meaning. In short, perhaps you have not been initiated to the Sons of Neptune. Therefore keelhauling is in order. (Look that one up, too.) Thou art ‘richly spoiled.’

According to the fable(s), Jason had a chequered fate, at the will of the Immortals, and in the end was a blind, lonely, homeless, wanderer that fell asleep beneath the decaying carcass of his ship, Argo, when the boat fell on him and killed him.

The Isaac story runs a little better: Abraham, called upon by God to sacrifice his son, Isaac, where an angel stays the executioner’s hand at the last possible moment. ‘Just testin’ ya,’ God said to Abraham.

So, again, Jason, welcome, and keep writing your wonderful prose.

46. Jomo Piñata - March 19, 2009

39/One from the fence

At the beginning, the first time I saw a picture of him, I was repelled a little bit

You should have paid attention to this very rapid, very accurate cognition. To learn more, check out

http://www.gladwell.com/blink/index.html

47. elena - March 19, 2009

Oh dear Jason!

Please do go back to the Fellowship as quickly as you can: you belong there. When one is so willing to disregard people’s lives justified with fundamentalist Jesuism, one’s chances of freeing one’s self are few. The Fellowship will make you a hundred times more of a fundamentalist than you already are, they are experts at that and carry exactly the same theories about Robert that you do. Let’s look at them:

Jason: “I am concerned about the Teacher especially. At the same time, I feel he has been with me the whole time! And I do not know how to reconcile all of this.
_______Get real, concern your self with your self. If you think Robert Burton is a teacher you need to get off that cloud of imagination.

I verified Influence C. I verified that Robert is conscious, as far as I could.

_______We all verified that and then we verified he was as phony as sick. We keep verifying that when we don’t allow our selves to disregard the facts that you seem to have such a great talent to do.

Whether it is possible to be both conscious and a dangerous egotist, (like a sun that has dark encrustations inhibiting its expulsion of light…), I don’t know-

_________It is NOT. If you can’t differentiate one from the other your A,B, C is much deranged, try to get yourself back on your feet.

I suspect it IS possible and quite dangerous if it happens, i.e. if ego returns to the conscious man unbeknownst to him, or if there was something that never was conscious in an otherwise conscious man.
________That is what you are here for! That little message saying that it is possible to be both. We’ve had other experts on it here but you can’t buy that theory unless you brainwash your self enough and disregard the facts, which is what you wish others in the Fellowship to do.

I myself have gone through many rationalizations about his infamous activities. One of them (one I have not as of now ruled out) is that he must suffer according to his sexuality because our current age demands it’s consciousness due to a generally, er, warped relationship toward sex in our current world.

________Another one telling us that the morality of our times can’t take the “normality” of raping young men with the support of one thousand blindly committed and convicted prisoners of the Fellowship Cult?

That in bringing sexuality to light, suffering because of it, he is transforming our sex into, well, what it’s most optimal function is.

___________Wow, where did you dig that one out from? What kind of perversions do you carry behind your Jesuistic fundamentalism? You started this idea and dropped it, come on dude, why don’t you finish it? What is sexualities most optimal function? Aren’t you enough of a fundamentalist to be able to carry it out and not just insinuate it?

And of course it is completely ‘out of the box,’ it is everything a spiritual teacher “should” not do; and it is a challenge to his students to pay less attention to “Robert” (Robert, the illusion) than to his consciousness, our consciousness, our presence, his presence.

________This circling… this playing with words like presence and consciousness hoping some idiot will still buy into that sickhole! Spiritual teacher!! You poor fool!
Come on Jason dear, hold your self tight because we’re going on a big ride! Show us the roots that can hold such fundamentalism? Tell us how you corrupt everything within you to disregard the simple facts with multitudinous imaginations about your perception of a narcissistic sociopath as a conscious being. Tell us how the hero within you gets exited by the idea of protecting a serial rapist protected by a bunch of idolaters?

And it makes it impossible for us to emulate him when we should be ourselves outright.
_________What an interesting turn!

At the same time! It feels definitely less than clean, and I in my fragility NEED a clean teaching.

________Ahhh, this apparent retrieving but you’ve managed to send out the statements that you want people to take: the conscious being, the spiritual teacher, consciousness, presence and the fact that you are willing to stand by it at no matter who’s cost. Like Dally Cardic and the bunch of half minded experts we’ve had here before. Isn’t it rather strange, Jason dear, that you take personalities that are more and more fundamentalistic about Jesus and righteousness and how you will not fight with anyone here because it is against your principles and we’re all brothers and sisters?

I’m nobody’s sister who rapes and allows for rape or extortion or fraud. Count me out love, our honeymoon ended with your second post!

At the beginning, the first time I saw a picture of him, I was repelled a little bit and feel that maybe “he” was challenging me to live outside of all I had thought true before to live actually truth in myself. But maybe all I thought was ‘his indications” was actually my own consciousness/conscience guiding me the whole time. I have never felt love for the man; I have come close to being actually able to say, “I love Robert” sincerely, but this effort felt reminiscent of the book 1984 where at the end, the main character, at last “Loved Big Brother.”

_________One day, the extent to which your kind of thinking has corrupted and tries to corrupt others will be looked at like we dissect animals today. People will post it up in museums to remind themselves of the decadence that mankind reached in our period. The little and apparent innocent turns in which you are willing to indulge to hit that same tender innocence that we might have had when we joined the Fellowship is what makes it so vile. That is exactly what cults thrive on: taking advantage of people’s innocence, beauty, well meaning, childlike essence. That is what has to grow up to recognize the sorts of you.

If Love between individuals happens, it is not through effort, it IS. I trust his words, actually, to have much truth and am not cynical at all toward many of the examples of hypocracy and egomania (i.e. the sufi poet’s “cuteness,” void of the tremendous shocks that would indicate a real school) that have been hung out to dry on this blog- rather, I found, well, enlightenment in them, in their way.

__________Here you charge again and tell us how you trust his words hoping that others will trust you to continue in the Fellowship because a fundamentalist like you is “pictured” as wanting to go back to Robert’s bosom. And the game of words with which you turn things around. It is so sick!

I accepted that he is “King” amongst us.

_________Wow, what a big one, they said the same about the devil in their time! And it didn’t make them any less evil!

When I met him, I realized a part of me was awake the entire evening despite obvious turmoil in my lower centers. My observation of his attention: he does not move.

_______Absolutely true Jason. I wonder what in you doesn’t allow you to realize today that that is exactly the truth: ROBERT BURTON DOES NOT MOVE. HE HAS CRYSTALLIZED AS A NARCISISTIC SOCIOPATH THAT DOESN’T FEEL, INCAPABLE OF CONSCIOUSNESS.

I witnessed his awareness/attention/consciousness

_________You witness his numbness, his frigidity, his inability to experience the outside world:
through octave after octave and saw that no matter what “I’s” there were, he did not bend to them; he carried himself through the interval no matter how convincing it might have been to, well, believe in the i’s. This is what is so disturbing.

I would love to be able to just put it down, say that he is not good, and, relieved, live my life without a thought of returning to the Fellowship again. But I am unable to do that. I am consulting my conscience; I am turning on (seemingly after a dozen years) the part of my awareness that filters all information to see if it is true/eternal.

________Run Jason dear, they are all fundamentalists like you in the Fellowship, they’ll pay you well for your services, buy you Gucci ties and silk suits and make you feel like you’ve won the world over because you’ve sold your soul for leather shoes!

I’ll watch equally unimpressed at how you model your self at Robert’s feet and sink deep into the submission that you chose for your self.

It is very good for people like you to be on this blog. Pity you disappear so quickly before you actually show us the stuff that you are made of. You come screaming your fundamentalism and when we ask you for the facts you run out of the stage on the other side of the curtain. Be brave Jason dear, stand up at the center of the stage and answer a few questions:

How do you conceive harmony between consciousness and practices in life?
What is dignity for you?
Can a man be raped with dignity?
Can you extortion people with dignity?
Do you think Gucci clothes give you dignity?
Are you more proud of your self because you dress silk clothes?
When Robert asks mothers to abandon their children, what level of consciousness do you think he possesses Jason dear?
When he wastes million after million, what kind of good house holder do you label him with?

Please don’t run away without answering those questions, the whole world is watching your answers so that if they satisfy us we can all run back to the Fellowship and sit by the side of almighty Robert throughout eternity.

48. snorer - March 19, 2009

Hi
Elena

When you were Girard’s wife you were a Giraffe.

peace

49. elena - March 19, 2009

Keep sleeping snorer! But don’t expect us all to follow because you make fun of people rather than reason with them!

I love giraffes, so you still flatter me! I’m still Girard’s wife, the title never mattered and no matter how much of a wife I might be, he’s still a corrupt enabler of Robert Burton, like the rest in and out of the Fellowship who support it.

Out for the day! Have fun!

50. in2it - March 19, 2009

“One from the fence.”

I haven’t had time to read your long posts, but did read enough to get some of the gist. Here’s something to try, just a suggestion:

Write another long post about the FOF, and your decision about whether or not to go back, and leave out all of the “work language.” Not one “conscious” or “verified,” or “Teacher” or “Robert” or any other word or expression that you learned in the FOF, and then try to write about your experience.

Potentially revealing — I know it was for me.

51. in2it - March 19, 2009

By the way, you wrote: “We are honored to have even had these experiences…”

Uh, no, “we” are not “honored”.

The experience we had was one of being clueless enablers for the behavior of a sociopath who suffers from narcissistic personality order and other serious psychological illnesses. I can think of many other words to use, but “honor” isn’t one of them.

52. Ames Gilbert - March 19, 2009

A few days ago, my friend James Battaglia let go of his poor, worn body, and moved on. Let me tell you a bit about my friend.

He was the bravest and most adventurous person I have ever met. He was a true explorer of the earth, his body and his mind. He lived in many places. He married and had a son. He founded and ran an adventure company and was a qualified captain. He helped restore a huge tall (sailing) ship. He traveled extensively, and in 1993, while he was in South America, he drank some bad water, and contracted a disease that destroyed his kidneys.
He had a successful transplant. Let me tell you one story to illustrate his guts and his tenacity. Just two months after the operation we were in Molokai doing the Wai Lau trail and unexpected weather came. We were in trouble and had to head back to the mountain across swollen streams; it took two days to cover the distance we had taken three hours to cover on the way in. We were completely soaked, exhausted and cold. This man amongst men climbed with me, weak, cold and trembling, for eight hours up the mountain until we got out of the weather. It was so cold that we were even drinking our cooking oil straight to get calories. Later that last afternoon, before we had even warmed up, he was already cracking jokes about the trip.

James let nothing stop him. He applied to work in Antarctica, and when they told him they could not accept him because of the transplant, he was able, by sheer force of personality, to make them change their minds. He went back to the ice for four seasons; one of his jobs was to train newcomers to Antarctica to survive in the cold if they were to get lost. A few weeks before his fifth season was to begin, his kidneys started to fail. He returned to his family in New Jersey, where his mother and his sister, a nurse, cared for him. After a long struggle, his heart gave out under the strain.

James was one of the friendliest and most engaging people one could meet. Every person he met was an opportunity to learn something interesting, not only about that person, but about life. And people responded and opened themselves and flowered because of his attention to them, each as an individual person with a unique story, because he was genuinely engaged in the moment. That is very rare.

Why am I telling you this to you here on the blog? Because he was once a member of the Fellowship of Friends. And no ordinary follower either. One of the reasons I’m proud to have known him was his ability to ruthlessly question everything. Below I reproduce one of my previous blog entries that highlights the kinds of questions he asked of Robert Burton. Would that we had all asked questions like this! His questions reflected his passionate desire for the truth, and he would not be put aside. He was polite, decent, compassionate, and yet let nothing sway him from getting answers. I think you’ll agree he had a lot to teach, and I feel truly blessed that I was around to learn from this truly remarkable being.

# 9-339
Some more history…
After Richard Buzbee (school name, Richard Laurel) distributed his letter telling of his sexual encounter with Burton and how he discovered his son Troy had been having a sexual relationship with Burton (beginning when Troy was underage), Burton called quite a few students to ‘try to quell the flames’. Here is one of those conversations, verbatim.

Phone call from Robert Burton to James Battaglia, October 23, 1994

R. Hello James, how’s your liver? Are you feeling well?
J. I’m fine, Robert, and it was a kidney transplant that I had.
R. Yes, that’s right. Are you disturbed by this Richard Buzbee incident? I understand you left the meeting in protest.
J. Let me explain the scenario. I had been standing for an hour and you know my physical condition. It was two minutes to eight o’clock and there were about a hundred cars at the Town Hall. Why do you think I left?
R. To beat the traffic!
J. That’s right. If I was protesting this meeting, I’d do it verbally.
R. I don’t want the meeting to be an arena to discuss my sexual life and I allowed it to happen. C Influence wants me to be a homosexual and have sex with my students so that I may have humility. It’s a beautiful experience for myself and my students. I’m very loving and careful with them. The morality of the ark will not be based on Judeo-Christian principles.
J. What will it be based on?
R. I don’t know yet.
J. I’d like to ask you some questions concerning this matter about Richard. Are you open to that?
R. Yes.
J. Did Richard consent to having sex with you?
R. I’m over fifty and not a strong man. Richard lifted his buttocks up so that I could remove his pants. After we were through, he said that it was beautiful.
J. Had you had sex with him previously?
R. We had laid naked together in the other (Ethan’s) house and I fondled him. My students willingly have sex with me, I don’t force anyone.
J. I’ve talked with Richard myself and I feel that I have a good understanding of his experience.
R. Just remember I am a conscious being and Richard is an unconscious being. Richard is lying through his teeth, and he set me up. Richard is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and I fell for the setup.
J. I’m not conscious and I can’t verify if you are conscious. The system tells me that the lower cannot see the higher.
R. I am the brightest light in two thousand years.
J. I can’t verify that.
R. Have you verified C Influence?
J. Yes.
R. Well, the reason you’re able to do that is because I am a conscious being. Do you remember when I sent the car for you?
J. What do you mean?
R. I have to make about five hundred decisions a week. That I was able to send a car for you to pick you up at the hospital was an act of a conscious being. It’s the little things that matter.
R. Robert, I don’t see how that allows me to verify that you are conscious. Are acts of kindness an indicator of consciousness?
R. You don’t sound like you are coming from the king of hearts, more from your king of clubs.
J. I’m glad you brought up the king of clubs. It seems like you have a big identification with things pertaining to the king of clubs. What do you think is the right work of the king of clubs?
R. Gurdjieff says the king of clubs is the beast of the jungle, it protects the machine from harm. It lives in the jungle.
J. Then it seems to me a necessary part to recognize and understand. Yet you have an aversion to king of clubs things like holistic healing, hands-on healing, etcetera.
R. (vague response)
J. Robert, the only thing important to me is to keep my ears and eyes open and try to be in the moment. This moment. Talking to you is the most important thing happening. It helps me see the truth. That’s why I came to this school; I felt it was a bastion of truth. In time, though, I’ve found that most students don’t want to face the truth. Whenever I make an observation, the general response is that I’m being negative or that I’m losing the school. I see fear and feminine dominance as tools to keep students in control, I don’t have any fear of losing the school. I just need to be in the moment and if C Influence takes me out, so be it. Being in the moment is all that’s important to me.
R. That’s not enough.
J. What do you mean, not enough? That’s what you’ve been preaching all these years, self-remembering. What more is there?
R. You have to be concerned with your future.
J. What?!
R. You have to be concerned with YOUR future.
J. I’m concerned with the moment.
R. Remember when you were thrown out of the raft?
J. Yes.
R. C Influence can shake you out of the school just the same.
J. Robert, again let me say all I can do is keep my eyes and ears open and stay in the moment. That’s all that’s important to me. I don’t fear losing the school if I’m bounced out of it.
R. You have to be concerned about your future.
J. I’m only concerned with my present.
R. You have to be concerned about YOUR future (very strong emotional energy coming from Robert). Well, I’m glad that you’re o.k. about this incident. It’s fine to share this conversation with other students.
J. I won’t do that, Robert, because it would influence their thinking on this matter. I would encourage them to speak with Richard and you to form their own opinions. Are you open to them calling you?
R. Yes. Well, there’s a wedding here today and I have things to do.
J. Let’s keep the channels of communication open, Robert, and thanks for calling.
R. Goodbye, dear.

James followed up this conversation with a letter a few days later…

Dear Robert,
I appreciate you calling me and have taken time to digest the experience, and I’d like to offer you my perceptions.

My emotional center registered from your tone that you were very concerned with how I was dealing with what I’ll call the Richard Laurel incident. My action at the meeting of questioning Wayne’s angle and then leaving soon after was the catalyst for your call. I find it interesting that this was reported to you and that you acted so quickly on it. It verifies to me that you are quite active in the process of damage control over this incident with Richard and it makes me question why.

I made thorough notes of our conversation and thought about the emotional content of your voice during it. I feel that you put a lot of energy out to convince me that you are a conscious being, bordering on divinity. “The brightest light in two thousand years”, as you put it. The examples you gave to me for verification, such as my having verified C Influence because you are a conscious being and your sending me to a car to pick me up at the hospital did not penetrate as valid verifications of consciousness. I had verified C Influence before and after being in the Fellowship and I don’t see any connection with your theoretical consciousness. As to you sending a car for me and supplying rides to my doctor’s appointments at my request, I appreciate it greatly and that shows me that you were very considerate of my situation, yet I don’t know they constitute acts of consciousness. Yet I have a pretty good idea of what is not consciousness through self-observation and observing others.

As to our discussion of your sexual preferences and that C Influence wants you to be a homosexual and have sex with your students, this in unverifiable to me. Your sexuality is your business and is not a real issue with me. The issue with me and other students I’ve confided in is the possibility of you using your position as a means to gratify what appears to be a large sexual appetite. I’ve talked with students who have been your partner and their experiences have been as diverse as the individual. Some have said they were pursued quite vigorously until they succumbed, others felt it was a beautiful experience from which they gained tremendously, and others felt they were treated as an instinctive object for pleasure, then discarded. You said that your students willingly are with you and you do not influence them and this may be true. You do hold a very influential position over many and I’m sure that you realize this does affect a person’s process in responding to you. Years of observation about the type of men you have in your entourage have shown me that they are predominantly very similar in their psychologies and appear to be particularly malleable.

My final concern is that over the years it appears you have many sexual partners and that precautions for sexually transmitted diseases are not taken. I feel this is not responsible action by all parties involved and can lead to dire consequences for you and many others. Have you ever had an AIDS test and have any of your consistent partners been tested? What do you feel is your responsibility and how do you deal with this issue?

My responses and statements to you appeared to make you more defensive of your position until you photographed my as being in the king of clubs rather than the king of hearts. This appears to be a standard response by you that one is becoming instinctive if your authority is questioned. The Fourth Way, as I understand it, is a process of questioning, observing, and verification. One that does not question is asleep, in my opinion. My questioning is a step in the process to find the truth, it does not come from disrespect or judgment.

At the start of our conversation you mentioned that you had just returned from staying at a hotel, I believe it was named after Muir, and that the address was 1998 and you made a reference to the numerical significance. At the teaching dinner I attended in September, you spent a considerable amount of time talking about interpreting license plate, place names and the like. Robert, what relevance does that have towards evolution and why is it such a common topic by you to students? I searched books by Ouspensky, Gurdjieff, Collins and Bennet and have not found any references to predictions. What does this information have to do with the Fourth Way and awakening? To me it appears to feed imagination. I may be wrong, so could you clarify your intent on speaking of these matters? I’d appreciate some relativity.

Robert, I feel the intention of your call was to assure me that everything is fine and as you put it, Richard was lying through his teeth, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, as you stated and you fell for his setup. I don’t know why you made a particularly strong effort to convince me. I’ve been told that one of your roles is to keep students asleep as well as awaken. If this was said by you I feel that you were trying to assure me that all is well and that it’s business as usual. And you realized that I wasn’t buying it. Thus your example of being knocked out of the school felt like a strong warning to me. As I said to you, I’ve never felt as committed to my work and to supporting students as I do now. All I can do is to try to be present to the moment, keep my eyes looking and my ears listening. Trust my conscience and I’ll be shown the truth. The future will unfold as it will and I will accept it as it happens, without fear.

Robert, I appreciate all the opportunities I’ve been given to self observe and try to develop will. For our efforts and all the efforts of all students who have built and are building Renaissance/Apollo I am forever grateful. I know of no other community where I have 1901 teachers and it is something I value highly. My observations to you come from a place of caring, support and concern for what we are building and I know that you can understand and appreciate that. Let’s keep the communications open. Thank you.

With love and friendship,
(signed) James Battaglia

On the 13th November, 1994, James received his reply. He was told to leave the Fellowship, along with five others, including myself.

53. Tatyana - March 19, 2009

Jason: “Whether it is possible to be both conscious and a dangerous egotist…”

“In modern thought people ignore the idea of being and different levels of being. On the contrary, they believe that the more discrepancies and contradictions there are in a man’s being, the more interesting and brilliant he can be. It is generally, although tacitly, and not always even tacitly, admitted that a man can be given to lying, he can be selfish, unreliable, unreasonable, perverted, and yet be a great scientist or a great philosopher or a great artist. Of course this is quite impossible. This incompatibility of different features of one’s being, which is generally regarded as originality, actually means weakness. One cannot be a great thinker or a great artist with a perverted or inconsistent mind, just as one cannot be a prizefighter or a circus athlete with consumption. The widespread acceptance of the idea that inconsistency and amorality mean originality is responsible for the many scientific, artistic, and religious fakes of our present time and probably of all times.” P.D. Ouspensky

Dear Jason, you sound pretty hysterical and I feel for you. I was going through the same cycles of thoughts during 2 years before I finally left FOF. It is the worst thing for a sincere seeker to be conned on the spiritual way. Once you get over this turmoil, you will be grateful that you had this chance. You will know how to tell the difference between a lie and a truth. God bless you, Jason!

54. Panorea - March 19, 2009

39. One from the fence – March 19, 2009

You can say what you wish. If I were you, I would ask for some professional help.

You have a problem!

55. snorer - March 19, 2009

Hi Elena

good to see you haven’t lost your sense of humor.

fuck robert button.

56. Crouching Tiger - March 19, 2009

Elena.

“Unlike you I do not believe the body predominates over the emotional and intellectual or moving centre and the I.”

It isn’t a power struggle. It seems ridiculously obvious to point this out, but without the body, the thinking and feeling parts would not have any medium. If you want to examine anything, examine the medium to find out what effect a thought or feeling, or ‘states’ composed of them, has on the individual. You will looking on something that can’t lie to you.

57. Tatyana - March 19, 2009

55 snorer: fuck robert button.

more correctly: do NOT fuck Robert Burton

58. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

52 ames gilbert

I had wondered when you would beautifully return to the blogsite, and so you did, with a superb ‘eulogy’ to James. I should have thought something that special was going to happen, having spent the day with my two 10 of Spades Venus-Mercury-Solar students. Please stay a while.
…..Nigel.

59. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

47 elena

Boy, your payment in these past few months has brought you to lucid, lofty heights! You work with glass these days, right? How about these passages in writing on the Heavitree (Holy-Tree – my suburb of Exeter) Glass Sculpture, recently installed…..

“The world should lose her qualities if the celestial spheres should forget their wanted motions; if nature should intermit her colours and leave altogether the observations of her own laws: if the moon should wander from her beaten way; the times and seasons blend themselves by disordered and confused mixture: what shall become of man who sees not plainly that obedience unto the laws of nature is the stay of the whole world.”

And you told Jason that we “Saw through a glass, darkly; but now face to face”

I now listen to “Love Changes Everything”, sung by Michael Ball (synchronistically, I may add)

Again, go to 1 Corinthians 13 for sustenance and know how much love I can hardly hold for you and my fellow humans…..Nigel.

60. Ellen - March 19, 2009

Ames, #52,
Thanks for that repost. James was a kind and good man. I’m also glad to have known him.

61. in2it - March 19, 2009

Realizing more profoundly than usual recently the short time we have on this earth, I’ve been reconnecting with many old friends and making new ones — none of them former fof followers, but rather acquaintances I’ve made outside the cult. The ease with which people are responding to this is truly inspiring and encouraging — and just plain enjoyable and fun.

I’ve noticed over the years that such a simple effort — reconnecting with old friends — tends to be much more challenging when I’m trying to do so with current and former followers within the fof.

There are the obvious answers to that — that there are rules to not connect with former cult members, etc. etc. etc. etc. But I sense there’s something more than that. A type of Fear, maybe.

You, there, still in. And you, long out… Connect while you can. Don’t wait.

62. One from the fence - March 19, 2009

Achem- I’m sensing a lot of aggression:-) Please don’t turn and say it’s not aggression.

Fundamentalist? How does one get to become a fundamentalist when he is laying out hypotheses? Particularly about my feelings for Christ?

63. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

61 in2it

That wonderful songwriter, Neil Sedaka, wrote…..

“One day,
When this world has had its way with me,
Part of me will STILL BE HUMAN,
Doing what I can for peace and love”

Bless you…..Nigel.

64. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

62 One from the fence

JESUS MAN – you make me sick, and I’m not aggresive!…..Nigel.

65. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

Dearest elena

Can you email me your Columbian postal address? I’m feeling in ‘wee giftie’ mood. Tee, hee!…..Nigel

aprhys@nigelprice.net

66. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

Anyone (ton, whalerider, yesri baba etc.) want a copy of my booklet, “The Years Between” (about my fight with bi-polar)?

EMAIL ADDRESS ABOVE!!!!!…..Nigel.

67. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

Oh, God! I hit the number for REB’s favourite ‘love’ position (look how the numbers go!?) – Six, Six, sick, sick sex!!!!!…..Nigel

P.S. Don’t you just hate The Beast who has that Number!? N.

68. lauralupa - March 19, 2009

Ames, Amen
thanks for your loving memories of a lovely man

69. lauralupa - March 19, 2009

ok now I need a sweet sad song

70. One from the fence - March 19, 2009

64. Nigel, you’re joking, right, about not being aggressive?

71. One from the fence - March 19, 2009

46. That’s certainly one of the sources of my caution.

72. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

70 One from the fence

Joking about you making me sick – and I should say ‘being assertive’ is a better phrase than aggression. Quite honestly, it will take a great shock to take away the positive state that the Universe has graced me with over the past few days. You want teaching about states? Come, do some dialogue with a psychotic (bi-polar affective disorder has its good points) and ask REB if he said these Posies of Truth…..

Student: Will I become conscious this lifetime?
REB: No, dear – you are not crazy enough!
_________________________________________________________________________
(on suffering)
REB: Dear God,how HIGH the PRICE!
_________________________________________________________________________
REB: This is a School of Love (and that is the third and out – it’s a lie)

GO BACK TO THE F.O.F. AND GO TO SLEEP OR TAKE THE CHANCE OF “GROWING UP” IN “LIFE” – REB SELLS DEATH OF THE SELF!!!!!!!!!!

As a ‘parting shot’, manifestations of Features Not Transformed are an expression of negativity…..REB manifests GREED, DOMINANCE and TRAMP from years back…..

Kindly hoping you find a way of working with this post…..Nigel.

73. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

73

And if REB refutes them, call him a liar to his face, and still see if you stay in the FOF!…..Nigel.

74. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

73

Sorry – 72! Robert’s death-wish age…..Nigel.

75. nigel harris price - March 19, 2009

72

And, if you want to know why I mentioned Tramp, just remember that it does not want to pay for things and does not value things worth having.

C’mon REB – are you willing to PAY THE PRICE!?…..Nigel.

76. One from the fence - March 19, 2009

Nigel, you are just so full of labels I find it hard to see any evidence of observation in your words. I am glad that you said you are joking. But it does seem to me that this blog has a rule against personal attacks on it’s posters that is only adhered to as long as the poster agrees with the majority who reject the Fellowship completely.

77. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - March 19, 2009

This blog is starting to sound as ridiculous as this movie. For a good laugh please watch.

78. WhaleRider - March 19, 2009

One from the fence:
“…the majority who reject the Fellowship completely.”

You might think of the FOF aka Pathway to Presence as a Monet painting. Close up, your “eye” is captivated by all the pretty colors. But the farther you stand away from it, the more clear the scene becomes. That’s why we are in the majority; most of us here have been out longer than you.

Your writing about or from your “essence” strikes me as someone in the sheep-like trance state of age regression. (Thank you, Bruce)

To be better informed about cults and how cult leaders operate, I’d recommend reading “The Guru Papers”, by Kramer and Alstad. You can buy a copy on Amazon.com if you are indeed interested in a conscious-conscience raising experience.

Tatyana: Has fat boy read “The Guru Papers?”

>>>>>>><<<<<<<

Welcome back, Ames.

79. in2it - March 20, 2009

Wakeuplittlesuzy: “This blog is starting to sound as ridiculous as…”

Is this what you’re referring to?

76. One from the fence – “Blah, blah, blah. Blah blah, blu-blah, blah. Blah, and blah. And one more thing: BLAH.”

Now THAT is an attack. But I’m just joking.

But I’d like to point something out here… Using the word “attack” is a straw man. The blog is an avenue for dissent. And it’s no wonder the word is avoided by cult apologists: Dissent is a healthy tool for revealing the truth about harmful organizations.

The following is not from the Guru Papers, just a short list that describes a few of the many characteristics/definitions of a cult:

“The person who dissents or is victimized becomes the problem rather than the issue being raised.”

“Protecting the reputation of the leaders, group, or church is more important than truth or justice.”

“Those within the group willingly suspend their disbelief of any and all wrong doing regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary.”

80. Tatyana - March 20, 2009

whalerider, I don’t know fat boy.

one from the fence, you sound young. Be really careful, you are a “right material” for FOF. Think before you go back and get stuck in the spiderweb. Think what do you want from your life and what are you loking for.

best regards!

81. nigel harris price - March 20, 2009

76 Robert Crystallizes One from the fence

Some people need a ‘rude awakening’!…..Nigel.

P.S. You may like to read my posts to other blogites to see that you are talking rubbish! N.

82. One from the fence - March 20, 2009

Okay. So I didn’t find an avenue for reasonable discussion here. Too bad. You all are exactly what you fight against.

83. brucelevy - March 20, 2009

82. One from the fence

You know us all so well.

84. One from the fence - March 20, 2009

Elena- I don’t like your mocking tone- surely you could have offered a little more sugar to get me to speak- do you think I’m some macho jerk trying to prove myself?

85. Vena - March 20, 2009

Dear One from the Fence,
I remember you as a very sweet person. From your posts I think you are still suffering from a lot of self doubt and self deprecation. Those were character traits that contributed to our joining the Fellowship and kept most of us in for too long. We had strong doubts about Robert and the Fellowship but we didn’t trust our own perceptions. I hope for your sake that you don’t fall for the scam again. You have probably already paid enough. Read Tatyana’s quote from Ouspensky a few posts back. No one who is even a little bit awake could really belief that Robert Burton is a conscious being. If you are looking for a spiritual path there are many now that are much more legitimate and authentic. Don’t get trapped again.

86. elena - March 20, 2009

Crouching Tiger,

Thanks. You seem to be working with a definite idea and system that you haven’t laid out and this might not even be the place since there seems to be little interest. I don’t know your premises and feel like we are not going anywhere with this discussion in which you limit your self to saying what is not without telling what is. I appreciate the effort.

87. elena - March 20, 2009

Jason, if you try to answer the questions you’ll see your self a little better. There is no mocking. I don’t do that.

Have a good night.
Elena

Thank you Ames for your post.

88. One from the fence - March 20, 2009

Elena- never mind.

89. elena - March 20, 2009

Nigel thanks,
It’s easy to be kind when one feels good!

90. in2it - March 20, 2009

If you are truly seeking a “reasonable discussion,” then take a look at the following, and tell us what you think…

“The person who dissents or is victimized becomes the problem rather than the issue being raised.”

“Protecting the reputation of the leaders, group, or church is more important than truth or justice.”

“Those within the group willingly suspend their disbelief of any and all wrong doing regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary.”

91. Panorea - March 20, 2009

Sorry Jason, I do not know you and hardly have time to read long posts to be sincere. But from what I read here, you are after something “big”! I think I need to drop all the hysteria about being conscious, special and all the attributes the Fellowship and other Cults try to sell, in order to become simple and simply human.

If I hear you saying that you have been carrying Robert Burton with you all the time, I am wondering what is it that you are looking for. Is it discipline in your life? Is it comfort? Care, Love, a feeling you are doing enough, you are worthy? Again, I do not know your situation.

But I have the gut feeling that whatever one will write here, you will just turn it around in your mind (because you are playing with intellectual constructions and not really asking for help). The thing you need is a parent who will tell you “just shut up and live”! Or a parent like Burton who will keep on messing up with your mind.

I hope you’ll manage to find peace, but I know you will not find it in the Fellowship or any other Cult or belief system.

You need to trust yourself first and that’s the only thing you are not doing.

Again, I wish you well.

Spring is out there and it comes closer and closer…

92. James Mclemore - March 20, 2009

One from the fence :

I write this not to convince or try to ‘polarize’ you in some way, but I write it as much to myself as to you, as I attempt to better understand the things that you struggle with and that have/or had their seeds in all of us.

“As I have verified that certain spiritual experiences I had were real and also unique, there must, then, have been something real about the Teacher, Influence C, and the aim of the school whether that has been lost or sidetracked… or not.”

“You are all my brothers and sisters, how could you not be after the experiences we have shared- really who else in the world could even discuss such bizzarity from personal experience?! We are honored to have even had these experiences”

Even without the ideas of ‘real’ and ‘verified’, there is a thread of what I would call ‘specialness’ that runs through your above quotes. This ‘specialness’ seems to come in many forms, and lately it looks to me to be one of the cornerstones of the egoic mind that it uses to perpetuate its sense of separateness. It can be a ‘specialness’ like the fellowship of friends sells, that we all bought into, and that encourages people to feel separate from the rest of life; to feel special and ‘honored’ and have ‘unique’ experiences. Robert Burton I suspect is very good at zeroing in on that part of people and helping it to grow. The specialness however can just as easily be that we are special in a way in which we perceive ourselves as not doing well. Specialness will think that it must be more lost, or more damned than others. You said,
” Influence C used and abused me in order to show others, like I was a television that sat barely breathing in the same room as them, false personality.”

You said,
” although it is in question as to whether I am a mature student or not. It is possible I am. My self love and vanity obstruct this, certainly, still. This is not self-deprecation- I have been quickly negated too many times by the furious onslaught of self-love. I am PRAYING for the dissolution of my ego”

I am not attacking you, but I do disagree. I think no matter how you state it, that it is still a variety of self judgement. It is the type of self-deprecation that Robert Burton tries to foster and maintain in his flock. You will never be good enough, you will never quite make enough efforts, you will continue to displease C influence with your meager attempts of ridding yourself of the horrid ‘lower self’, and on and on and on. I have no way of knowing whether Robert may be stuck in these same mistaken ideas or not, but he certainly seems to keep selling them for his advantage. Robert actively feeds and nourishes a feeling of fear in relation to his strange notion of C influence. It ends up being not much different than a wrathful God, who you can either hide from or pray to, and with either of those choices, IT is still something beyond you, and interestingly enough, only accesible through Robert Burton. (here is a good place to use that idea from the link of Jomo Pinata – you just know immediately that something is wrong). It keeps the separation intact and just like a lot of other religions it produces and sustains a part of the ego who is going to get rid of the ego.

Jason – this is not an attack, but I would hope you think long and hard, or perhaps even better, not think about it too long or hard. Perhaps do what Ouspensky counselled and ‘abandon the system and reconstruct everything for yourself’. Try to see again what it was that you thought you wanted when you joined the fof the first time. Spend some time in there. Take a long walk in the woods. And perhaps go back and wade through earlier parts of this blog if you wish to begin to piece together a good picture of who Robert Burton is. And in the meantime, try and just see that you are o.k. just as you are. Is there more to learn? I think so, and you can learn all there is about yourself right where you are in life. I personally do not think you need a school, and I am quite sure you do not need a cult with a sexual predator as the leader.

93. Ill Never Tell - March 20, 2009

Hey, everybody, but especially Jason: What did Marvin the Martian say at the prospective student meeting? Click here to find out:

94. Panorea - March 20, 2009

The funny thing with people like our friend from the fence is that they write a couple of posts here thinking they have something incredibly important to share. Then all the other poor fellows (I include myself here), who have been struggling to make sense of the shit they faced in the Fellowship and the psychological bullshit they put up with for years in and years out, try to come up with a reasonable post (or a provocative one whatever…) to illustrate the madness of the Fellowship of Profound Idiots! Then people like our friend from the fence get upset and start telling the other poor fellows that they feel attacked and they do not feel welcome here…

Hey, over the fence can you still look over here? Have you ever tried to express your sincere opinion and doubts in the Fellowship? If not, why not? Are you afraid you will be left out of something so special? Are you afraid you will not find any friends? Try to say what you really feel to someone in the Cult and wait for the dead silence…It is worse than the “attacks” you get here.

95. in2it - March 20, 2009

Some of the fof apologists/shills who step onto the blog remind me of the American Idol participants who get stomped on by Simon.

If you are worried about being “attacked” by Simon, then don’t walk onto the stage. And if you do walk up there, be sure you bring a good voice — one that can carry a melody.

By all means, present a dissenting view to many of the posts here, but also find a way to acknowledge the important facts. The side-stepping and the avoidance and the obfuscation, and the use of Fourth Way terms in every sentence is not “sincerity” or “intelligence”, nor is it a good argument.

Also, the word “tone” has been used a couple of times in the last few pages, as in, “I like what you say but don’t like your tone.”

Or…

“I don’t like what you say, and on top of that I also don’t like your tone.”

This, the FOF, is a negative topic. Negative topics can be addressed with positive tones at times, and it’s helpful to do so sometimes. But asking people to use a positive tone about the fof is a bit like like asking someone to use a positive tone about a train wreck. It’s just not a good thing that’s happened here. And it’s still happening.

Positive tones are the work of Public Relations directors when their company is handing out huge bonuses using taxpayer bailout money.

You know, it’s good to take a breather at times from the seriousness of this topic, but if you’re going to address the issues in a serious manner, watch out for Simon.

96. in2it - March 20, 2009

Panorea, beautifully expressed.

97. Panorea - March 20, 2009

Just googled George Gurdjief(wanted to reply to a discussion on the GF and was checking some facts about his life) …you get your results…and then right there on the right-hand space for ads you come across again “Fourth Way In Amsterdam” and our favourite: pathwaytopresence.com.

Was that guy G_ b _r who put it together and feels so proud of his creation, he forgets the Fellowship of Friends is NOT a fourth way school? Or is it just that they are looking for the next fish to catch and “Fourth Way” sounds better than “Sequential Abuse and House of Spiritual Opportunism”?

The most disgusting examples of current members of the Fellowship of Friends are the ones who know exactly what Robert Burton has been doing and in order to avoid losing their interests in the various “investments” they did in the FOF, go around the world trying to get more victims in the trap. They know and want to pull more souls as they are drowning…Pathetic, to live ones life like this…Pathetic

98. in2it - March 20, 2009

“The most disgusting examples of current members of the Fellowship of Friends are the ones who know exactly what Robert Burton has been doing and in order to avoid losing their interests in the various “investments” they did in the FOF.”

I keep thinking I’ve heard all of the weird aspects of this cult, but — yes, call me naive — this one never occurred to me. It makes perfect sense, and I can think of several names off the top of my head who fit into this category. They not only have “investments” on the line, but they also fear losing contact with a social life that includes champagne receptions and a sense of belonging and self-worth because of their connection to the “king.”

King, is a good word, because the FOF does have some of the same nauseating traits of various courts throughout the ages — which were also filled with opportunistic people with very few qualms about who they hurt in the process of pursuing their interests. Getting close to the king and/or queen was an art — of course, sometimes that wasn’t a good idea.

99. Tatyana - March 20, 2009

Hello, everyone.
I had my own “one from the fence” last evening. Conversation about James B phone dialog with RB went fiery right away. Thanks to the blog I am able to recognize all typical reactions: “I see it differently” “I don’t like your tone” “I knew all that, so – what?” “I already verified all this for myself, I don’t need to go over it again and again” “I believe Robert is conscious and I respect him”. But I still can’t get used to how much shit can fly all over during conversations like this even if I speak from a very calm and clear place. I am blamed in trying to provoke and push buttons, but I don’t try to provoke, I try to inspire the vision of truth in a person I consider intelligent.

I just wonder to which point it is still reasonable to discuss these things and when you just need to stop, shake your head and change the subject? Or go have a cup of tea…

100. Crouching Tiger - March 20, 2009

Elena.

You are right in part. The Blog is not the place to unwrap any other teaching at great length. However, it is important to use real examples from other teachings or directions – as others have done with non-dualism etc.. – to show where the Fellowship does not measure up to its own image.

This is particularly true where the 4th Way is concerned, as I believe the vast majority of current and ex-members were introduced to the Fellowship as a ‘real 4th Way school’…

Therefore the effort to point out that it lacks some of the key elements of Gurdjieff’s teaching is entirely worthwhile. I have little doubt that if Gurdjieff could see the Fellowship today, he would see a psychopathic institution. But there is no need to go any further and try to evangelise anyone else, as you yourself know very well by now.

101. Tatyana - March 20, 2009

100. Crouching Tiger, I agree.
One of the biggest help on my way out was a post on the blog way back from Dunkan about the 4th way. He mentioned that FOF members are ignorant and do not study even the theory of the 4th way as one would study a course in the college. They BELIEVE they are in the 4th way school. That inspired me to go back to the basics and discover for myself what the 4th Way ideas really are.

My latest discovery was that FOF “sales pitch” consisted entirely from the ideas described by P.D. Ouspensky in “Psychology of Man Possible Evolution” Nothing in FOF (except the 1st prospective student meeting) is the 4th Way. NOTHING!

102. WhaleRider - March 20, 2009

fence person:
“Okay. So I didn’t find an avenue for reasonable discussion here. Too bad. You all are exactly what you fight against.”

Too bad? What have you got to lose? Did you come here expecting everyone to just agree with you? A reasonable, adult discussion of any merit involves challenging points of view. Where is your intellectual stamina? I think you’d benefit from continuing to post your thoughts.

In the same way you’d suggest a person just entering the FOF read about the “Fourth Way” or “In Search…” or Burton’s inane book, I suggest you read “The Guru Papers”. Trust me, it will be worth the effort.

103. Panorea - March 20, 2009

Tatyana 99

You know Tatyana I do not think I can simply sit and sip a delicious cup tea with a current member. I also do not live at Oregon House and I have a very nice circle of friends and family who have nothing to do with the Fellowship (except that they have known me, me who led a double life for a couple of years…).

I cannot sit there and pretend I am interested in talking about Rumi and other poetry and books and paintings and beautiful places, because I know the other person DOES NOT want to hear me and DOES NOT want to include me in their world. They do not want to hear me because I remind them the possibility of them making an error. They basically look at you like a piece of dirt, like Robert has been describing “life people” for so many years. They look at you and feel how superior they are and they want to shut you down, so they wont lose their huge, colourful bubble!

They also are half persons in my eyes. They deny their most vital sides (naming them Queens of the centres, King of Clubs, I’s that prevent one to do the perverse sequence of the words their leader invented…).

What is to talk with these people and what is to see about them and about oneself in these conversations? If they want to change something in their desperate situation, they can come and try to find you.

It is so refreshing to meet one’s real friends. Lovely human beings who are with you because of what you are, not because of the conditions that a self-crowned, self-published King of Consciousness has imposed on his followers.

104. Panorea - March 20, 2009

And this is the last one for today…

Also, remember how Burton tried to put everyone down by reminding them that we are all “average”. We are all average in what we are doing in our lives, but doing a good job in remembering ourselves. Only, here too, “we” were not doing such a good job, he was the only one who had perfected the art of “self-remembering”; call it lifetime, call it luck, call it pure manipulation, call it madness, call it sexual perversity, but do not call it common sense, self-esteem, love, kindness, humility.

Wishing you all a lovely weekend!

105. Opus111 - March 20, 2009

From the fence:

You probably remember the expression “form of the school”. It is not mentioned or discussed very much these days in the FOF and never was considered a very worthy topic. The form was a prerogative of the teacher, therefore you should not concentrate on discussing its merits and anyway, it distracted you from the message, from the work and the real purpose of your presence in the FOF. Nowadays, all there is, all that counts is the form, or so it seems: appearance, outward commitment, money, attendance to events, etc…. Any individualized, sincere alternate exploration is sanctioned by banishment as it strays away from, and might threaten the current form. Is this enlightened behavior or scare tactics?

The reason I mention this is that in your attempted dialogue with people here, you still pay way more attention to the form (tone) than the content of message. Words on a screen are just that, so forget the tone!

Similarly, in your assessment of Robert’s worth, you seem more impressed by his public displays (the Met!) than the person and his qualities/faults. Just because, as Elena has repeatedly pointed out, someone carefully orchestrated his life to be entirely disconnected from the common folks (only communicates his shopping whims through one of the boys) and most of his “students”, and is day and night surrounded by a posse, does not mean that individual is enlightened. Parenthetically, Robert makes every attempt to eliminate “low impressions” from his immediate public surroundings, such as dead things, dirt, stains, decay, old people, etc… I guess it must remind him of his own very visible and not at all sublimated decay, and the sh_t he covers himself and others with in private.

106. nigel harris price - March 20, 2009

104

PAN…..you’re here! Thank God!…..Nigel.

107. Panorea - March 20, 2009

Do not seem to be able to stop today…so just another memory to face…

Do you remember Robert asking us to remember ourselves every time we would think of HIM and Great Influence-C? Any clues why was that?

May I suggest that if you have a photograph of Robert Burton (maybe one of the 100-150$ a piece, yes, yes, that one you look so deep in ecstasy- fourth state…you paid lots of money, but your Teacher touched you actually, mentioned something about your dress, or tie…and there you are…eternity with THE Conscious Being of the 20th and 21st century- A Bargain!). So, yes take that picture and look at Robert Burton in the eye. Take an actual minute and try to look at him and try to be neutral and not so much in awe. What do you see? If you want to really be confronted with a shock let someone whom you trust and is not part of the merry-go-round of the Fellowship (I do hope for you, you still have one or two souls who have nothing to do with the Cult…).

Robert looks devilish. And you know that. Do you remember that little booklet that was published a few years ago celebrating the 20th anniversary of the school, or Apollo (do not recall any more). When we first saw it, our mouth dropped. He looks like a magician (the one where he toasts and looks directly into the lens). He is a master of manipulation. If you keep on looking at those images and keep on thinking about him, you will eventually connect with your wits. But, he does not want you to connect with your intelligence, so insert a few sequences dear when you think of me and everything will be all right again.

108. Panorea - March 20, 2009

Nice you are here Nic(g)el!!! ❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀❀

109. elena - March 20, 2009

Crouching Tiger:

“Therefore the effort to point out that it lacks some of the key elements of Gurdjieff’s teaching is entirely worthwhile. I have little doubt that if Gurdjieff could see the Fellowship today, he would see a psychopathic institution. But there is no need to go any further and try to evangelise anyone else, as you yourself know very well by now.”

I don’t think this has anything to do with the subject of the moving centre that we were talking about, what a strange way of changing the subject and have no idea what you mean by my knowing very well anything by now. If you’re referring to the fact that I’ve stood up for sharing in this public square because that is what a decent community would do: communicate I think the evangelizing has been effective enough! If you mean my standing up for closing the Fellowship down, I’m pretty satisfied with the amount of people that have left in the past two years. It’s a little more than any exodus before us. So I really have no idea what you mean, I would much appreciate your directness because you seem to be having a lot of fun implying things that I don’t quite get. Or maybe it’s just that you enjoy humiliating me about the fact that you’ve told me I rant too much? How long does it take you to renew your self Crouching Tiger and get on with life and other people? When do you begin to acknowledge that it’s enough? What kind of ranting do you call that? Or is there another English term that I don’t know about. It took you two years to get there with me, we all had our share but it took me two weeks to get over it without accounts, how long do you intend to take?

It’s a good thing that I’m getting busy here, I’m happy with my share, enjoy yours.

110. ton - March 21, 2009

circa 66 nigel,
i would like to look at your booklet… but didn’t get the ’email address above’

thank you yesri, james, bruce, jomo, laura, ames, suzy, whalerider, intuit, tatyana, vena, elena, pan, tell, opus, tiger…
oh ya, and one fence….

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Fence_(criminal)

111. elena - March 21, 2009

Crouching Tiger: “You are right in part. The Blog is not the place to unwrap any other teaching at great length. However, it is important to use real examples from other teachings or directions – as others have done with non-dualism etc.. – to show where the Fellowship does not measure up to its own image.”

I agree. It would be great to share a tiny bit of knowledge in the midst of the Fellowship’s abundant ignorance and why don’t we take the subject of the body that seems to interest you so much. Since I am a Fellowship product and an ignorant allow me to share the little I’ve understood from anthroposophy about the body. This to me is worth doing so that those still inside get a glimpse of all the beauty we missed about the body in the Fellowship. Just a short glimpse!

In this System the body itself is understood from two perspectives: The purely physical which is associated with the mineral world and as such holds to the laws of gravity, space, density. Like all other things in the universe it is composed mainly of carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen and sulfur. (When one studies each of these a world of its own opens up connecting everything!)

Our bones, hair, nails are particularly representative of this mineral world within the body. Full development of the I needs this world to be able to develop. It is a “humanized” aspect of the mineral world. Metals are conceived as the organs of the world and although we don’t conceive them alive in the same sense as organic life, carbon is turned to diamond and other such processes take place in jewels. The parallel is beautiful!

The mineral world or strictly physical, subject to gravity tends to descend into Earth. In the roots of plants as much as in the body of humans: It finally rests within its womb!

The etheric of vital body within the body of humans is under the laws of the organic world. Like plants it reaches upwards overcoming gravity. Birth and growth, reproduction and death. It is vitality also in form: all seeds are seeds but they each have their own structure. It is a temporal body, it also dies with death. It is connected to the rest of nature. Water is its element. Water is 88.8% oxygen. We tend to think of air when we think of oxygen but air is 78% nitrogen. Steiner says Nitrogen is the carrier of planetary influences. Liquid oxygen is magnetic. It responds to the magnetism from the Sun and moon. Tides and moon phases are probably closely linked to it.

The Astral body or the soul is where emotions live. Astral comes from stars, constellations or forces. Air is its element. Air, breathe, “anima” or soul. Animal.
Nitrogen and planetary influences. Plants carry the mineral within their roots but flowers and fruits are directed towards the Sun carrying its astrality which is what animals, particularly birds eat from them: Birds, bees and butterflies that Steiner says, have the quality of spiritualizing matter while cows, the quality of materializing the spiritual. One of the possible reasons for their sacred aspect in India. Milk has fed mankind. Animals, like man, move. Not plants. E-motions include motion as an aspect of its realm. This realm is what allows us to incorporate the external world and externalize the internal.

Finally the Human body where the I resides. Its element is fire. Its quality is the ability to form concepts, think. They are one inseparable whole while a man lives.

Hope you enjoy!

112. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

110 ton (and others interested in my “The Years Between” booklet [draft] )

The email address to give your mailing address details is…..

aprhys@nigelprice.net

‘Let’s get mental imbalance out of the closet and into life’…..Nigel.

113. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

111 elena

The connection between spiritual and physical…..

“The Golden Compass” was a brilliantly contraversial film since, opposing the Creation Myth held by doctrinal, dogmatic religions, it postulates the theory that, as my pub-friend, Ray, puts it, “We are all star-dust”…..

…..the Big Bang Theory makes sense in this regard…..

In the beginning
If anyone can remember back that far
Was unfathomable womanhood.

By chance of Original Sin
Which became Ultimate Intelligence;
‘The Absolute was lonely so he created the Universe’.
This supports the Big Bang theory
Since the word of the Ultimate is the cry – I AM,
First account for me.

Creation was implosion
Then, ap Rhys (impetuous one)
Throwing out too far (infinite dispersal of galaxies);
Then rolled back the tide to hold
Our solar system together.

Who knows? This may have been the time and place of all experience.

(nhp) 1996

114. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

113 just as an afterthought

Neil Diamond (nice name, eh, elena?)

“I am, I said
To no-one there;
And no-one heard me there,
Not even the chair.

I am, I cried;
I am said I;
And I have lost
And I can’t even say why”

115. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

111 elena

A little addition…..

SEX ENERGY – HYDROGEN 12, OF THE ASTRAL BODY (OUSPENSKY)…..

In all animate beings – reproduction…..

In Man’s higher aspirations – healing, art, poetry and the social necessity of Higher Emotions (in the general sense that all human beings have them)…..

In REB – features of Greed, Dominance and Tramp and the propensity for voracious acts of rape and infra-sex (The King of Clubs – the ‘lower eating the higher’)…..

Anyone else care to expand on this subject?…..Nigel

116. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

TO One on the fence

LIFE IS A RISK – ask any ‘preyed upon being’…..

The FOF was, and is a RISK – you have every chance of being ‘sucked dry’ of your cash, possessions and moral nature…..

…..unless, that is, you have enough money and blind stupidity – add to that the ability to believe REB, when he ‘whispers in your ear – “Good work, dear” -‘…..

One from the fence…..I really do not care what you do – your posts here seem to want a decision made for you from your place of emotional and intellectual immaturity…..

Al I know is, you would not catch me going back to the fOF as a member..

…..Nigel.

117. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

Put this one, from Ruskin, the Evangelist, in REB’s features and work with it

FRONDES AGRESTES

Section 1

4.
Had it been ordained by the Almighty that the highest pleasures of sight should be those of most difficult attainment, and that to arrive at them it should be necessary to accumulate GILDED PALACES, tower over tower, and pile ARTIFICIAL MOUNTAINS AROUND INSINUATED LAKES, there would never have been a direct contradiction between the unselfish duties and the inherent desires of every individual. But no such contradiction exists in the system of Divine Providence; which, leaving it open to us, if we will, as creatures in probation, TO ABUSE THIS SENSE LIKE ANY OTHER, and pamper it with SELFISH AND THOUGHTLESS VANITIES, as we pamper the palate with deadly meats, until THE APPETITE OF TASTEFUL CRUELTY is lost in its sickened satiety, incapable of pleasures unless, CALIGULA LIKE, it concentrates the labour of a million lives into the sensation of an hour, – leaves it open to us, BY HUMBLE AND LOVING WAYS, to make ourselves susceptible of deep delight, WHICH SHALL NOT SEPARATE US FROM OUR FELLOWS, nor require the sacrifice of ANY DUTY OR OCCUPATION, but shall bind us closer to men and to God, and be with us always, HARMONISED WITH EVRY ACTION, CONSISTENT WITH EVERY CLAIM, UNCHANGING AND ETERNAL.

118. lauralupa - March 21, 2009

I just happened upon this music video… and thought I’d share
Have fun!

119. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

I feel the greatest thing is to take an interest in Humanity and…..

…..never take things for granted…..Nigel.

120. Just the Facts Ma'am - March 21, 2009

Not Pathway to Presence.
Pathetic Way to Presence.

❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀

‘Getting close to the king and/or queen was an art. . .’
And, sometimes the king IS the queen.
(Don’t let anyone fool you, in the gay community, a person like the FoF king is known by all to be a queen. And, in this particular person, a ‘drama queen.’ And, like her majesty, there will be no satisfying the insatiable desires. Nine of Hearts my eye; third eye.)

❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀

‘FOF members are ignorant and do not study even the theory of the 4th way. . .’
Among 4th Way Orgs, FoF is considered to be the black sheep or bastard offspring.

❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀

‘A reasonable, adult discussion of any merit involves challenging points of view. Where is your intellectual stamina?’
To: Fence Person (capitalized as a sign of respect and also to emphasize the F.P., as in false personality): ‘Me thinks thou art a Pollywog.’

❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀

‘It is so refreshing to meet one’s real friends.’
Real friends will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no friends. By extension: Real friends will get you through times of no Fellowship of Friends better than Fellowship of Friends will get you through times of no money. Right, Nige?

❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀

‘remember how Burton tried to put everyone down by reminding them that we are all “average”.’
And expendable.

❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀

‘If you keep on looking at those images and keep on thinking about him, you will eventually connect with your wits.’
Yep, emperor’s new clothes fairy tale (or, is that: fairy tail). Read Hans Christian Andersen’s version of the story.

❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀

Spring is here, in northern hemisphere, and everything is coming up daisies.

❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀ ❀

121. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

From “Henry V”, Shakespeare’s ‘Action into words; words into action’ play….

…..opening titles miscreate, whose right
Suit not in native colours with the truth.

Stand for your own, unwind your bloody flag,
Look back into your mighty ancestors.

If that you will France (Renaissance) win,
Then with Scotland (Wallace) first begin.

France (Renaissance) being ours, we’ll bend it to our awe,
Or break it all to pieces.

We will in France (Renaissance), by God’s grace, play a set (law-suit)
Shall strike his father’s (REB’s) crown into the hazard

…..omit no happy hour
That may give furtherance to our expedition,

The French (FOF), advised by good intelligence (this blogsite)
Of this most dreadful preparation,
Shake in their fear, and with pale policies (A. G—–n)
Seek to divert the English purposes.

Since God so graciously hath brought to light
This dangerous treason lurking in our way
To hinder our beginnings (asylum).

…..O peace, Prince Dauphin (G. H—n)!
You are too much mistaken in this king (NHP – 8 of Hearts)

Self-love, my liege, is not so vile a sin
As self-neglecting.

WORK, WORK YOUR THOUGHTS (be out of imagination),

Now entertain conjecture of a time
When creeping murmur and the pouring dark(I have been ‘up’ since 3am)
Fills the wide vessel of the universe.

A little touch of Harry (Harris – ‘of the house-ruler’) in the night.

With casted slough (depressive state) and fresh legerity (hypo-manic state).

Twin-born (Price/Wallace – double-Celt) with greatness, subject to the breath
Of every fool…..

…..with regards to all, Nigel.

122. Panorea - March 21, 2009

Nicely presented; Just the Facts Sir or Madam…

I respect gay communities. I have friends and relatives who had to go through a lot in order to remain sane and true to themselves and be with their loved ones .

Someone like Robert Burton is not an accepted item in a gay community. It gives good people a bad name…They really do not need reputations like Burton’s. That’s why Burton also uses his own “people” to practice his sick fantasies. He wouldn’t have survived in a gay community. He is a coward…Check him out.

123. Crouching Tiger - March 21, 2009

Elena,

“It took you two years to get there with me, we all had our share but it took me two weeks to get over it without accounts, how long do you intend to take?”

If I had any idea what the hell you’re talking about, I’d reply! But I don’t, I’m afraid…

124. WhaleRider - March 21, 2009

elena:
Re:111
I’d like to discuss with you what you have presented about Steiner’s theories as ideas separate from your own, so please don’t take this as a personal attack.

Plants draw minerals from the earth and carry them via water to the plant’s leaves where those minerals are used along with carbon dioxide in photosynthesis to create sugars which are then used by the rest of the plant in the creation of other organic compounds such as plant proteins and carbohydrates that make up the plant’s structure. Some of those carbohydrates are stored in root nodes, such as in potatoes.

So plants don’t carry minerals in their roots, they carry minerals to the leaves through their vascular system. They also get the element of nitrogen not from the air, but from the soil, which is why fertilizer primarily contains nitrogen based compounds.

Surprisingly, most land plants also need oxygen around their roots in the soil, which is why farmers must turn or till the soil to oxygenate it. Aquatic plants get this oxygen from water.

Also plants do move; they direct themselves toward the sun and some even travel long distances and reproduce themselves through their root system.

Flowers contain sugars called nectar, which is what birds, butterflies, and bees feed on.

So how do these facts fit within Steiner’s theories?

125. WhaleRider - March 21, 2009

PS. Plants have fed and sustained mankind a lot longer than cow’s milk.

126. Renald - March 21, 2009

re 82. One from the fence – March 20, 2009

“ Okay. So I didn’t find an avenue for reasonable discussion here. Too bad. You all are exactly what you fight against. “

I see his/her point, though it is a little strong. I continue to say

“ You (all of us) are attracting what we fight against. “

Okay, this does not mean that we would fall for the same crap, but it does mean that we would continue to attract vulnerability, even if only vulnerability to negative emotions.

Cheers!

127. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

120 JtFM

Section (oops, no thanks) 5 (that’s better, man of action…..I/You can do!)

“Damn right, damn right, I really love your Tiger Light”…..(apologies to Shoowaddy-Waddy, 1970’s music!!!!!)…..”What immortal hand or eye, can frame thy (you mate[ress?]) dreadful symmetry?”. Agape…..Nigel.

128. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

1(there can be only) 2 (to) 5 (being of active, real, doing), whalerider

GO TO MY GF SITE AND SEE MY PICTURE LOGO – the damn Christmas Cactus is Blooming As We Speak!!!!!

I am Truly Using all possible means (meds, definitely – triple applied ‘downers’, friends to relax with, serendipitious ‘checking in’ with a psychiatric nurse who was visiting the Windsor Castle pub to play pool etc. etc.) to avoid this hypo-mania, fired by my business thriving beyond my wildest dreams, getting out-of-control. Ireland won by one point in the decider of the Six Nations Rugby – no ‘cissy’ armour-plating as in American Football equivalent – there can be only ONE, sometimes. I’m ‘backgounding’ to HIGHLANDER (DVD) as I post…..then on to ‘Angels’ CD – somewhat THERAPY music…..and here I run out of steam and relax into Presence of Body…..Thank you so much for being a True Friend…..CONCERN IS THE KEY!!!!! Agape…..Nigel.

129. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

122 Panorea

I had some celibate gay antique dealers, who put up the money for me to start my own work in Sausalito (a little weeping only – hablo Espanol)…..there is a name for such people who front a business with money…..ANGELS!!!!!….. Agape…..Nigel.

130. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

And that f—ing b—ard, REB, kept on taking…..that’s what put me out-of-business!!!!! Don’t worry…..I’m at peace with the words I write…..N.

131. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

GOOD. RICH, NOURISHING posts, you guys!!!!! Thanks for supporting my sanity – yes, I really mean that!!!!!…..Nigel (Little Dark Champion).

132. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

122 Panorea

The real “QUEEN” composed songs especially for “Highlander”…..

“This is a kind of Magick…..” Nigel.

133. nigel harris price - March 21, 2009

1 (there can be only) 33 (awakening number)

“There can be only one”

“Use it (me) well…..!!!!!…..Nigel.

134. brucelevy - March 21, 2009

118. lauralupa

funny and creepy

135. brucelevy - March 21, 2009

120

“Real friends will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no friends.”

I thought the saying was: “Pot will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no pot.”

136. James Mclemore - March 22, 2009

Renald

I get the feeling either you do not read much of the blog, or you are simply proceeding from an opinion you had already formed about it, and in that way you continue to read exactly what you are looking for.

Bruce (at 135)

I can tell you honestly that I have ‘verified’ your form of that saying, and it is working very well for me right now through this time of financial difficulty.

137. in2it - March 22, 2009

Renald 126: “You (all of us) are attracting what we fight against.”

I agree that our thoughts attract many things that happen to us. We send negative energy out, and we sometimes get negative energy back. But sometimes even that negative energy is not such a bad thing (remember: that’s the idea fed to us in the fof, that anything ‘negative’ attitude or stance about the fof or Robert Earl Burton is a bad attitude, a weakness, or false personality and so on, and any negative commentary, especially about the fof, no surprise, is ‘bad, very bad.’)

But, Renald, what you and Fence are reading here is DISSENT. Put aside the word “fighting” for a moment.

Dissent isn’t synonymous with negative emotions, whether we agree with the premise that negative emotions are always detrimental or not. Dissent CAN be a negative emotion, but not always — and if it sheds light on a person or an organization, it’s actually something very positive.

Unless you’re that person who the dissent is shedding light on — then it’s not so positive, it’s negative.

So, have we had enough positives and negatives for one post. How about just, “What’s the truth about the fof? I want to understand it better. I want to stop deceiving myself that I was quite the cool guy with a lot of intelligence and specialness because I joined the fof.”

138. elena - March 22, 2009

That’s fine Crouching Tiger, the gist of it is enough. Thanks.

Hi Whalerider,
“So plants don’t carry minerals in their roots, they carry minerals to the leaves through their vascular system.”

_______What I meant is that the root system of the plants represents the mineral realm of it like bones represent that realm in humans.

They also get the element of nitrogen not from the air, but from the soil, which is why fertilizer primarily contains nitrogen based compounds.
_______Yes, when I spoke about nitrogen I wasn’t talking about the plant.
Surprisingly, most land plants also need oxygen around their roots in the soil, which is why farmers must turn or till the soil to oxygenate it. Aquatic plants get this oxygen from water.
________I don’t see what’s surprising about that.
Also plants do move; they direct themselves toward the sun and some even travel long distances and reproduce themselves through their root system.
_______The movement I am referring to is free movement from the ground.

Flowers contain sugars called nectar, which is what birds, butterflies, and bees feed on.
_______Yes, the flowers would correspond to the astral aspect of the plant, which connects to the Sun, stars and planets more than to earthly laws. There are beautiful studies showing how the structure of different flowers closely corresponds to the movement of different planets just like human types are under different influences. Steiner takes that idea much deeper than the System ever did.

So how do these facts fit within Steiner’s theories?
Thank you for asking. There’s a gold mine in anthroposophy that I recommend to anyone wishing to align him or her self back to life in a less absurd and schizophrenic approach than traditional knowledge offers. “Schizophrenic” in the sense that there is no coherence or connection between the different realms of life or knowledge which is in fact, what we see incarnated in cult members. The connection between science, society and the spiritual seems to be beautifully strong in their work. Theodor Schewnk and Karl Konig are worth every letter and Steiner is wonderfully non formatory and wise, so is the approach to knowledge that he presents. There is also much sober love in his work: a deep connection between man and the world. If one knows by now that one can’t read anything without understanding that it is somebody else’s approach for the joy of life and not meant to induce one into any kind of submission to the author, one can receive a lot without owing or being owed anything. The responsibility always rests in one’s self.

This is not recommending the cultish side of anthroposophists which seem to be in an interesting interval where ever I meet them: basically what I’ve observed is that they are still strongly holding on to authoritarian structures and although they seem to desperately wish to communicate as equals, the structures they are working with doesn’t let them. Fortunately there are about 30% exceptions to that rule amongst them which is already very good.

139. elena - March 22, 2009

One interesting aspect about having been in the Fellowship is that I was nothing for so long that it’s very easy to continue being nothing and properly approached, nothing is wonderful! If you take away the humiliations and absurdities of the Fellowship, it works awfully well!

It is very strange that this site gets four of five hundred hits a day and only a few of us write. No matter how wonderful or terrible we might write, nothing the few of us could ever say would make this site as rich as if you share what you have to give. Everyone has something to give, what’s stopping you? Are you still needing to be entertained by others?

The internet is bad enough as a medium of communication in that it misses the body! The way one looks and says things, the possibility of looking at each other while we speak but hanging out here without giving a little is an even stranger thing. From one angle, I don’t blame you. Anyone with a rich life would be much better of spending their time “Live” but if you’re going to hang out here, do as the honour of being with you!

I’ll probably quit soon if we don’t get to move this baby a little more intelligently! That is, a little more lovingly. When I think that this is what we got after the Fellowship, I can’t help hating the Fellowship a little more. Still, at this point there are no further regrets and a lot of gratitude to all who helped me across the transition between the Fellowship and life. It is good to be here on the other side: a little less wobbly and very interested in it.

Wish you all well.

140. elena - March 22, 2009

Just to make sure, I don’t mean lovingly towards me but for the art of learning to communicate!

141. One from the fence - March 22, 2009

139. 140. Amen.

142. WhaleRider - March 22, 2009

elena:
Thanks for the discussion.

“What I meant is that the root system of the plants represents the mineral realm of it like bones represent that realm in humans.”

I am still unclear how the roots of a plant represent the skeletal system of a human. If calcium is the mineral that makes human bones part of the mineral world, then how does that correlate with how a plant stores its mineral deposits of calcium? From what I can gather, most of the calcium in a plant is stored within the fluids of the cells that make up the entire plant which in turn give the plant structure. It seems to me that a plant’s roots are more like an organ of its body than what just gives the plant structural support. Bones are not considered organs per se, although red blood cells are produced in bone marrow.

“The movement I am referring to is free movement from the ground.”

Don’t plants move freely from the ground? Plant pollen can blanket the air and travel freely for miles and miles…and end up lodged in the tiny membranes of your nose. Seeds are carried for miles by the wind and the ocean and by animals. Freely.

Plants need us, and we need them. If we move, they move with us.

I guess I have a problem with studying any one member of the planet without studying the entire web of life in which it plays a part.

You and I look at each other in this dimension of time and space as separate individuals and think we move about independently. In another dimension of time and space, we are one big solid block of organic matter covering the earth.

You also stated in #111:

“Water is its element. Water is 88.8% oxygen. We tend to think of air when we think of oxygen but air is 78% nitrogen. Steiner says Nitrogen is the carrier of planetary influences. Liquid oxygen is magnetic. It responds to the magnetism from the Sun and moon. Tides and moon phases are probably closely linked to it.”

Liquid oxygen and water are two very different substances. Water is not magnetic, although liquid oxygen is only when a magnet is around; it isn’t magnetic by itself. Liquid oxygen is obtained from the fractional distillation of air, not water. Therefore, tides are linked to the gravitational pull of the moon, not its magnetic pull.

Also, by what means can a stable, inert gas like nitrogen carry planetary influences?

I’d be happy to move this baby lovingly along, keep posting.

143. Crouching Tiger - March 22, 2009

WR.

“You and I look at each other in this dimension of time and space as separate individuals and think we move about independently. In another dimension of time and space, we are one big solid block of organic matter covering the earth.”

If we could only know this deeply enough, consistently enough, this would be a very valuable realization! Perhaps the most valuable.

One of the problems with the Felllowship which grew as time wore and became more pressing…. was this idea of ‘building a soul’ for oneself. Firstly, in that I didn’t really feel ‘I’ was building anything – maybe just removing one or two obstacles to what was already there. More importantly, there began to be quite a distaste for this idea that ‘I’ should even want to perpetuate myself across time and space, somehow.

Why would I want to preserve something of this little self in the great vastness after death? If there is a feeling of connectedness already, do I feel any necessity to ‘build a soul’ at all? When the feeling of connectedness is soundly there, no tower of Babel is necessary for the ego.

Apparently there are thousands of acres of coniferous trees in Canada which scientists believe are connected by a single root…. when we can ‘be’ deeply enough ourselves.

144. nigel harris price - March 22, 2009

143 Crouching Tiger

A Pair of Trunks
Tuesday, 3rd August 2004
Wild West Yorkshire nature diary

” A small patch of wilderness
6.50 p.m., overcast, humid evening

I’ve drawn this elder before but, with nothing better in sight, here at my mother-in-law’s, I decide to try and draw it again. It’s the ancient-looking double trunk that appeals to me but, as I put bits of the fence in to make it show against the background, I realise that the surroundings are equally interesting. I like the rugged concrete block at the foot of the larchlap fence and the mossy/grassy banking.

It’s sometimes difficult to get out and experience nature but here’s a tiny patch of suburban wilderness that I can contemplate.

World Tree
This is why I haven’t been out there contemplating nature: I’m writing my latest Sushi Sketchbook. The whole point of Sushi was that I’d get out drawing from nature a heck of a lot more but it hasn’t worked out like that because I’ve had a backlog of three titles to write up.

The problem is that one simple drawing can lead to a chain of thoughts that takes me ages to write down in some acceptably coherent way. Here’s an example; a drawing of the medieval wrought iron handle on the door of a Norfolk village church that I’m including in Sushi number 5, Saints and Serpents.

Here’s what I wrote about it this afternoon:

It wasn’t until I’d nearly finished drawing the handle on the church door that I realised what it was, what I think it represents. It was the pitted surface of the handle, like reptilean scales, that made me realise: it’s Ygdrassil, the Viking world tree; its roots in the underworld, its branches in heaven and, at its base, serpents such as Nidhogg are constantly trying to topple it.

I write all the text by hand for the Sushis and, when I’ve read through my mock-up of the whole thing, I’ll probably go back over sections like this and try and improve them. Because it’s hand-lettering that means writing the whole paragraph again.

Research is tempting for me and I can’t possibly include everything that I’m tempted to. For instance it amused me that Nighogg, the serpent at the foot of the tree, is in a constant rivalry with an eagle who lives up in the branches. There’s a squirrel that spends it’s time running up and down the tree and stirring up trouble:

‘Hey, Eagle, do you know what that Nidhogg’s been saying about you now?!!’

Sushi Solutions
It’s still early days with the Sushis and my solution to this might be to allow myself more time on location so I’m not frantically sketching all the time and do a lot of the writing on location, so I’m not spending so much time messing about with text back here in the studio.

The other solution would be to tell the story almost entirely through the pictures.”

Richard Bell, richard@willowisland.co.uk

145. nigel harris price - March 22, 2009

139 elena

You, perhaps, have the richest soul and being of any woman I have come across…..Nigel.

146. nigel harris price - March 22, 2009

138 elena

Believe you me – the spirit world both moves us and communicates with us.
…..Nigel.

147. Just the Facts Ma'am - March 22, 2009

122. Panorea:

‘Someone like Robert Burton is not an accepted item in a gay community. It gives good people a bad name…They really do not need reputations like Burton’s. That’s why Burton also uses his own “people” to practice his sick fantasies. He wouldn’t have survived in a gay community. He is a coward…Check him out.’

Specifically: ‘He wouldn’t have survived in a gay community.’

It is not a matter of ‘wouldn’t have survived.’ He did NOT survive ‘in a gay community’ (if there was one). That’s what brought him to hijack the Fourth Way and pirate it in a similar manner as his sexual exploits: bate and switch and/or smoke screen tactics – sometimes shock and awe. One of the main reasons for Fellowship of Friends (FoF), and REBs placement in it, is: he could not make it in the gay community. They had rejected him. So, in that sense, what else was he to do? Create his own morality in a secret society. The man could not find love anywhere because HE could NOT love. (There even was the work idea that ‘we cannot know what love is’ and ‘love’ was a word exercise (not allowed to use the word) at one time in early FoF.) Even Alex Horn/Theater of All Possibilities rejected him. Supposedly, at the time of the ‘beginning of the teaching,’ REB was doing custodial work at the very same church on Skyline Boulevard, Oakland, CA (Berkeley as we said), where the Bay Area meetings later were held for a time – if memory serves me correctly – it could have been a myth, though,
as much as stories may go.

Another story had it that the ‘beginning of the teaching’ was on December 31, 1969, the supposed date for the death of Meher Baba.
That death of Meher Baba could be inaccurate as Meher Baba is reported to have died January 31, 1969. Some of the first FoF students were Meher Baba followers.

Of course, REB was supposed to be celibate back then, too. Much was fabricated to suit some purpose and, without conscience, anything goes.

Even REB’s birth date was morphed;
i.e. changed through time for some reason; like he didn’t like the self that was described by the actual birth date, so he got another.

148. lauralupa - March 22, 2009

bruce, james 135-6

I second that

149. lauralupa - March 22, 2009

real friends are good too, of course

150. Crouching Tiger - March 22, 2009

Thanks for the interesting story Nigel…

We didn’t deserve to win it Saturday. Interesting to see how the team develops from here, as it’s comes to something of a crossroads.

151. Yesri Baba - March 22, 2009

“You and I look at each other in this dimension of time and space as separate individuals and think we move about independently. In another dimension of time and space, we are one big solid block of organic matter covering the earth.”

I feel this kind of philosophical thinking is a crock of shit. It should be flushed with the idea of creating a ‘soul’. In fact, can we erase that fucking word from every language on the face of the earth.

152. Yesri Baba - March 22, 2009

126

“Okay, this does not mean that we would fall for the same crap, but it does mean that we would continue to attract vulnerability, even if only vulnerability to negative emotions.”

You’re so right! I keep getting pissed off every time I read one of your posts on this ‘law of attraction’ bullshit. Amazing!

By the way some old dead guy said a long time ago something like: “He that has more will be added unto him” or something to that effect. So this is not a bright shiney new idea so put a cork in it.

153. elena - March 22, 2009

142. WhaleRider

_____I’m a beginner in this anthroposophical world Whalerider, even after accumulating forty books of dead knowledge within my self and what I can give you from it is mixed by my own interpretations which may or may not be accurate but they are what give me the joy of swimming in it. I’ll be happy to share those but would still recommend that you check out a book like: “Man: Symphony of the Creative Word” by Steiner. There’s no doubt that he is a truly beautiful human being! It’s a short book but it was the one that began giving me an insight into a different way of perceiving in which everything is alive and in a process. My own way of perceiving life and myself after years in the Fellowship had become fixed, solid and it opened a completely different possibility of looking at knowledge through poetry, through the poetry of being alive!

_____“What I meant is that the root system of the plants represents the mineral realm of it like bones represent that realm in humans.”

Whale Rider: I am still unclear how the roots of a plant represent the skeletal system of a human.

That’s not what I said. What I said was that in the plant kingdom the roots represent the mineral realm like the bones in humans also represent that realm. Perhaps if we make an analogy with the System you’ll get it more easily. It is as if we said that the instinctive centre of human beings had the mineral and plant world in common with itself. Of the mineral world it shares calcium and many other substances that compose that kingdom and of the plant world it defies gravity and grows upwards towards the sun. If you remember that idea that nature develops man to a certain extent then you can picture how it develops the mineral, the plant and the animal kingdom to that extent as well. Of plants and animals we can say that they grow, reproduce and die but plants cannot move with their own feet like animals and animals cannot create concepts like humans. There are many other differences but you can fly on your own thinking about it!

What is truly beautiful about Steiner’s extensions is that he connects the world in one whole and when you look at how he does it, no matter how far out he reaches: it works! It works practically! It works scientifically if you still hold a poet within your scientific appreciations! If you don’t and are adamant to hold to the separation of science, society and the spirit, you might as well be in the Fellowship, or in a retrograde scientific office or in the fascist party! They are each extreme expressions of these separations.

Another way of perceiving it is the idea that forces move in the world and adopt different forms in the respective worlds. What inspires the flower in the Plant kingdom inspires the butterfly in the animal kingdom and “remembrance” in the human realm! They are big jumps love! If we’d spent decades looking at such possibilities and working with them, we might understand them a little better today but no point in crying over spilt milk, it’s never to late to be!

WR: Don’t plants move freely from the ground? My hon! Try not to be too formatory and in this particular case more literal or give up the dialogue right now because it won’t allow us to move one step! Plants do not move with the same freedom that animals and humans do.

“Plants need us, and we need them. If we move, they move with us.”
_____That is much more like it. Perceiving that world and its unity within us is what would extend our consciousness into it. Had mankind taken that step we would not have the problems of pollution that we have today. Again, spilt milk! The problems we’ve had on no matter what level are there to make us conscious of them so I am more inclined for the solution than the problem at this point! But if you think of oxygen as 88.8% of WATER and the fact that oxygen is precisely the force within the “instinctive centre” and nature that allows for the whole of the organic world to come to life, then we’re beginning to tap the magic! Then it you look into carbon, sulfur and the other elements it gets increasingly more exiting! In the long run it is the same principles of the law of three and seven in the world of chemistry but the scientific aspect of it allows us to touch the mineral world and hold to the rock that the spirit flies on like a kite!

WR: “You and I look at each other in this dimension of time and space as separate individuals and think we move about independently. In another dimension of time and space, we are one big solid block of organic matter covering the earth.”
_____Nothing solid! A big beautiful living world moving in time and space together with matter! One as strongly a part of the other!

WR“Liquid oxygen and water are two very different substances. Water is not magnetic, although liquid oxygen is only when a magnet is around; it isn’t magnetic by itself. Liquid oxygen is obtained from the fractional distillation of air, not water. Therefore, tides are linked to the gravitational pull of the moon, not its magnetic pull.”

You’re nice and accurate there, it makes all the sense and I will not argue with you on that because I don’t have the knowledge but science also doesn’t have it yet. The study of magnetic fields is hardly developed but the shield of magnetism around the earth from the Sun has the same ying-yang form of all “energetical” forces as presented also by Ouspensky in In Search…. And by Reich in Cosmic Superimposition.

WR: Also, by what means can a stable, inert gas like nitrogen carry planetary influences?

This is the most exiting of your questions and I’m just beginning to tackle it myself but according to what I’ve understood it is exactly the element that would carry those forces! When the System presented the idea that we receive planetary influences, particularly in Collin’s Celestial Influences, did you not wonder how exactly that happened? Did you not long for proof or a somewhat reasonable explanation of how it worked? When you look into the world of chemistry as presented by Steiner in “Agriculture” it begins to make a little more sense! The things people experience meditating are closely connected to the life of nitrogen in air! But that is my own extension; Steiner insinuates it but doesn’t leave it as explicit. It just makes sense because the things we experience in better states come from definite places! The oneness of our Universe is no accident! Check it out for your self, love! What ever area you’re working with will make a lot more sense when you bring more life to it!

Let me be clear about something: I’m not publicizing Anthroposophy or Steiner although I personally thoroughly enjoy them and give them as much credit as they deserve. What I think is worth picking up is a wholesome vision between the social, scientific and psychological and this can be done in no matter what area one is working and living in. It is each individual that can bring such coherence to his entourage without ever reading Steiner! The fact that we allowed the Fellowship to disassociate us from our self and the world around us gives us a very clear perspective on what cannot be disassociated. Things that others take for granted, we know with exactitude because we’ve been depraved of them for decades!

Sorry it extended out but I’m lucky I found somewhere to stop! It is endless!!! Like life!

154. nigel harris price - March 22, 2009

153 elena

You seem a little ‘stuck’!…..Nigel.

155. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - March 22, 2009

Elena: I copied this from my GF website from an art piece by Walter Russell. If you google Walter Russell’s website I think you’ll enjoy his writing at least as much as you enjoy Steiner. They both seem to be fairly balanced in their approaches towards science and spirituality.

‘Everything that emanates from a galaxy, a sun, an atom or a human being comes back to its source. Similarly, every human being, atom, sun and galaxy returns in its own individual rhythm to its source in the Universal Oneness, in order to be re-emanated into the polarity of the manifested world.’ Walter Russell

156. Renald - March 22, 2009

re, 136. James Mclemore – March 22, 2009

Renald

“ I get the feeling either you do not read much of the blog, or you are simply proceeding from an opinion you had already formed about it, and in that way you continue to read exactly what you are looking for.“

I am aware that I repeat myself. And it is okay for the clique on the blog to do so, just nobody else, right? Well, too bad, I consider the minute amount of space that I use up is well worth the ringing of the alarum bell.

I am also aware that I tend to come right out and say what I want and that it sounds like pontificating. Well big deal!

But the important part is that I have always agreed with the dissent.
It is just that everything which can be said negatively can be turned around and be spoken from the positive approach. Everything! This is something which requires effort on my part. Those who have known me can attest to that. Yet the results are not the same when the effort is made.

James you are right, I prefer to skip over the parts of the blog which go on and on in a negative bent. I read it all before over and over again and found that I pretty well always felt bad when I did so. So I reclaimed my joy. At the same time I do feel compassion and I still care for the authors. Some day I will maybe go back and reread all the posts I have skipped, just for the fun of it. Some day I will be able to transform the energy for myself.

If you look back I am pretty sure that you will find that I respond positively with the possible exception of the few times where I used fake poetry. At those times I was having fun and probably let some of my frustrations go like the many others.

Since this is going elsewhere than the stated aim of the blog, and more to the personal, this conversation would best be continued if at all on GF.

Cheers!

157. ton - March 22, 2009

whalerider, thanks for the discussion. re: “Plants have fed and sustained mankind a lot longer than cow’s milk.”

and

“Plants need us, and we need them.”

i would say we need plants a lot more than they need ‘us.’ plants don’t really need us at all, plants thrived here millions of aeons prior to ‘us’ and probably will continue long after ‘us.’ in case we need it, here’s yet more evidence of human dependence upon the plant kingdom: “Pot will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no pot.”

renald 126: “You (all of us) are attracting what we fight against.”

this strikes me as formulaic and a type of ‘magical thinking’ — not that there’s anything wrong with that, to each their own. an aspect of ‘truth’ may be gleaned by interpreting things through this sort of application of ‘the laws of attraction’ — obviously and of course we ‘attract what we fight against’ but this doesn’t explain much. for example, why we fight…? and the nature of the (t)issues surrounding simple (or complex) reactionary levels and patterns ? any ‘explanation’ that stops understanding at observation of ‘what we attract,’ raises more questions than it answers…. like the role of the ‘reasoning’ individual in conjunction with soma/emotional factors, the relationship of individuality and ‘the collective’, will and ‘morality’… not to mention familial/environmental/ socio/cultural background… you know, the whole ‘nature/nurture’ thing… etc…

158. Renald - March 22, 2009

137.“ in2it – March 22, 2009

Renald 126: “You (all of us) are attracting what we fight against.”

“ I agree that our thoughts attract many things that happen to us. We send negative energy out, and we sometimes get negative energy back. But sometimes even that negative energy is not such a bad thing (remember: that’s the idea fed to us in the fof, that anything ‘negative’ attitude or stance about the fof or Robert Earl Burton is a bad attitude, a weakness, or false personality and so on, and any negative commentary, especially about the fof, no surprise, is ‘bad, very bad.’)“

Thank you for your positive reply. Yes it is true that I cannot hide from negative thoughts or words. What I can do is to restrict them to a minimum in order to be able to regain my balance. The trouble with that approach is that I get sucked in by my interest in the subject and wind up in a bad mood. If it were not for that, well I guess it would not matter.

In the Fellowship of Friends, the non-expression of negative emotions was supposed to be used. Sometimes it was, and sometimes it was not. We just recently had a great example in the reprint of the phone conversation between James B. and Robert Earl Burton. It is a good one because although the words from Burton did not sound particularly negative, it is clear to all who knew him that he was near fuming. His energy was very negative.

So ought we to make The Expression of Negative Emotions our new rule out of retaliation ? He may have lucked out on that decision, after all the poor guy has to make sooo many every day. Why even when I play poker it happens that I make some good decisions.

Also quote “So, have we had enough positives and negatives for one post. How about just, “What’s the truth about the fof? I want to understand it better. I want to stop deceiving myself that I was quite the cool guy with a lot of intelligence and specialness because I joined the fof.”

You say, “What`s the truth about the fof? I want to understand it better.“ What I have read over the last couple years here is that “the blog“ is not very interested in hearing anything positive about the fof. So is it still the truth when a person posts such or are you only interested in the negative truth? Now I wind up sounding like DC.
Sheesh! There I go starting to feel lousy. Ok. Deep breath and make myself a cuppa. Just a minute, please. ….Okay!

The “I want to “ sentence next is a good example. You say I want to “stop deceiving myself“. So stop! Ya but its vanity! So it is a vanity thought that anybody under the circumstances would enjoy and get addicted to. We pretty all did. In order to give up on that bit of addiction it needs to be replaced by another. Sorry that is how we are made. How about the “ I have learned to look twice before I leap“ thought addiction (okay habit, but its the same)? I think that feels pretty good for a start but it won`t replace that juicy vanity thought. I mean it was a dandy! Okay, well then how about if we add “ that my contribution helped a whole bunch of kids make a better decision when it comes to starting a new life out there in the middle of nowhere.“ Hmm, not bad. Can you think of some thought which would make you proud to have transformed yourself to?
Great. What needs to be done to replace past thought habits and that includes them all, is to use the time and energy that we have and to keep this up till the old one starves to death and disappears.

Okay if all else fails you can always go to “ I think I am a very cool guy “ because I managed to escape the Fellowship of Friends. Quite a few still have a way to go before they can celebrate that one.
Further, the more negative stuff throw at them in the hope that they will also leave and find freedom and joy, the longer they will stay. That is not to say that they may not have other experiences which could cause them to leave, only that my negative breath is being wasted on them, as it can only be. Yes it is good for them to hear that there is some support for their views eventually.

When a desire is born within anyone anywhere which requires a move, the circumstances which will enable that move will sneak up on them and it will happen before they know it just as long as they are not hung up on the negative aspects as to why they want to move in the first place. Get it? This is very important. By causing people to want to leave for a whole bunch of negative factors, even if they do leave somehow, they then will attract something equally as bad or likely worse than before. The reason for leaving must be a positive one and it must be felt to be positive. If the person was kicked out against their desires, this is when it can be extremely painful. Then there are two things which can happen, as with any addiction. Splat, or bounce sky high. Cheers!

159. ton - March 22, 2009

renald 158, more evidence of the effects and after-effects of magical thinking…

“By causing people to want to leave for a whole bunch of negative factors, even if they do leave somehow, they then will attract something equally as bad or likely worse than before….”

what? you mean like providing ‘food for the moon’ or losing one’s ‘soul’ or the possibility of ‘evolution’ ?

160. Yesri Baba - March 22, 2009

158 Renald

“By causing people to want to leave for a whole bunch of negative factors, even if they do leave somehow, they then will attract something equally as bad or likely worse than before. The reason for leaving must be a positive one and it must be felt to be positive. If the person was kicked out against their desires, this is when it can be extremely painful. Then there are two things which can happen, as with any addiction. Splat, or bounce sky high.”

I agree with what you say here and that is at the heart of the disagreement I have with the ideas you express. That is that the ‘splat’ and the ‘sky high are irrelevant. They are connected, inseparable. One of the big mistakes in the ‘spiritual search’ is chasing the one and trying to get free of the other as if what is being searched for is some kind of endless bliss or eternal orgasmic release. I say that the degree to which you go one direction you will experience the opposite.

It seems to me when people are feeling flat or down they attach to that and feel bad about themselves and when they feel buzzed they feel good about themselves and round and round we go.

Certainly I don’t fully understand what you are trying to express and am only reacting to my interpretation of it. I do know that we each have our merry-go-round.

161. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - March 22, 2009

I throw the IChing every day. Not so much that I BELIEVE in it but that I find it inspirational. Here is one I received today on Modesty. Thought I’d share for anyone interested.

‘All things strive for balance and moderation. No sooner does the sun reach its zenith than it inevitably sets out upon its path towards sunset. Once the moon has become full it again begins to wane. This law applies to human life as well. But we mortals possess free will and can determine for ourselves whether we promote creative or destructive forces. Wiser people seek the balance instead. They show understanding instead of displaying their power over lesser beings. Try to create balanced relationships within yourself and your surroundings. If you succeed in finding an inner balance and allowing it to manifest externally then you will feel in harmony with the totality of life and its all encompassing power.’

162. James Mclemore - March 22, 2009

158. Renald

“Sorry that is how we are made”
**

That is a very large statement Renald.

163. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - March 22, 2009

Last week I lost two people that I was very close to at certain times in my life. One, James B and the other Suzy. Suzy and I were inseparable friends through high school. She and I were like two bookends. When I joined the FOF I wasn’t good at keeping in touch and neither was she so we didn’t communicate very much. In fact, not at all for the last 6 years. I couldn’t locate her so I googled her name and found out she had passed in 2003. After learning this I felt saddened that I had not maintained my end of the relationship.
On the other hand James B and I we had recently become closer friends and had actually healed much of our past misunderstandings. So when he passed I certainly felt sad but in quite a different way, and in many ways was glad he didn’t have to suffer physically any more and could move on.

Interestingly enough they both had had kidney transplants but Suzy’s had failed sooner than James’ did.

So in honor of my first best friend, Suzy, I will end my blog name and start another one using another pen name.

164. nigel harris price - March 22, 2009

156 Renald

R E n A l D / g E R A R D – funny about the ‘comparison’ of these names?

When reading that post, I got the uneasy feeling there was so much formatoriness, written in the same ‘style’ as GH. Maybe he returns in various blog-guises to try and thwart the main ‘crux’ of this site…..

“Free speech is a dirty business”

For God’s sake, this Renald is a potential destroyer of this principle…..Nigel

165. nigel harris price - March 22, 2009

161 wulswu

Ooh! I can use that one – definitely. Thanks for that…..Nigel.

166. nigel harris price - March 22, 2009

160 Yesri Baba

“It seems to me when people are feeling flat or down they attach to that and feel bad about themselves and when they feel buzzed they feel good about themselves and round and round we go.”

Yes, sir-ee (from a) baa-baa!…..Nigel.

167. nigel harris price - March 22, 2009

I often wonder why my surname is PRICE, and why I paid ‘through the teeth’ for my ‘membership’ in the FOF (actually, I ended up $30,000 in debt when I was released).

I use the knowledge and understanding of body-types, features and centres of gravity in my dealings with friends and students – even family.

Good householder for me is the constant ‘trimming’ of unnecessary manifestations of my own features and also working better with MONEY (our family ‘crime’, if I may say so), now I am not being ripped off.

Anyone else salvaged something?…..Nigel.

168. sallymcnally - March 22, 2009

A little feng shui feels good sometimes like rearranging the living room furniture.

169. ton - March 22, 2009

nigel 167: “I use the knowledge and understanding of body-types, features and centres of gravity in my dealings with friends and students – even family.”

when i read this i flashed back pre-fof, to my college days, a conversation i had with dennis piper… he was about fifteen or more years ‘my senior,’ a viet-nam vet and relatively ‘recently’ returned to ‘civilian’ life, he worked as a part-time bartender at a local pub, his wife had a good (steady/paying) job at the phone company. dennis and i attended college classes together…. he turned me on to good ‘weed,’ good acid and “MORNING OF THE MAGICIANS.” reading this book by louis pauwels et al., was my first contact with gurdjieffian ‘memes” — in due course this lead me to a fof book marker i found at the still extant MAYFLOWER bookstore….. the rest is as they say ‘history’ (and very partially recounted here in previous pages).

http://www.elib.com/Mayflower.php

after reading this post circa 167, i thought about the response from my friend dennis piper, after he heard my regurgitation of the idea of ‘body types’ — an idea i’d acquired attending prospective student meetings… what can i say now? i was young and impressionable….? anyway, the point is this, he said “be careful about ‘pigeonholing’ people… best to relate to them as whole human beings, and as a whole human being yourself” — or words to that effect…. and definitely not so pedandtic… sorry, i can’t remember the exact phraseology, it was circa 1976, that’s well over 30 years ago…. can you tell me, i want to know, where does the time go?

thanks suzy for reflection and inspiration.

170. brucelevy - March 23, 2009

An ample supply of superlatives for posters:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dickweed

171. Susan Zannos - March 23, 2009

So I was In my GP’s office, again, plaguing him with the apparently endless symptoms, real and imaged, connected with being depressed about 150% of the time, which monotonous whine he has been putting up with for about two years now, when I happened to mention my 30 years in the FoF. “Aha,” sez he, brightening up since he had about run out of pills and ideas, “You’ve got PTSD!” Since I have more or less consistently managed to stay out of mine fields and artillery fire, this notion surprised me considerably. So I hit Google, and sure enough, listed among causing factors on a couple web pages was “cult membership.” Thought I’d share that with any among you who are having difficulties thinking of any reason to get out of bed in the mornings. Or afternoons. Or evenings…

172. fofblogmoderator - March 23, 2009

168 is newly moderated

173. nigel harris price - March 23, 2009

169 ton

Don’t worry! It just helps, sometimes, to realise, when you have a Queen of Spades Mercury, you have to go at their pace or slow them down to do ‘a good job’. L—a is a brilliant student in her own right!…..Nigel.

174. James Mclemore - March 23, 2009

lauralupa

Thanks for the youtube. I think what I liked best was the sheer joyfullness of that percussionist.

175. fofblogmoderator - March 23, 2009

I received the following post from Greg Goodwin tonight. He wants back in. I don’t want him back in, I feel he can’t be trusted. I do however feel that he has some contributions to make when he’s not criticizing and judging. Let’s see what feedback this yields;

171. Susan Zannos – March 23, 2009

“You’ve got PTSD!”

***

Post traumatic stress disorder…

There is only one cure: current traumatic stress. A life that isn’t stressful and traumatic isn’t worth living. It’s necessary to remain on the cutting edge of mind-boggling tension, otherwise you’ll relax into psychological oblivion. What happens is that at a certain point the elastic bond between your ‘will’ and your body snaps and suddenly you realize that you are not your body. You are not your body. Reach this breaking point and you can then command your body to quit trembling and misbehaving, for a time. The body wants to find relaxation and relief, but a relaxed untroubled life is the life of a dog. If you want to be fully a human being you have to separate your will from the instincts of your body. Rather than going to a doctor for pills you need to find an activity that focuses your nervous tension in a productive direction, you need to find some kind of worthwhile contribution to mankind.

You might also investigate meditation and eastern movements (Tai Chi, etc.)

This process of separation from the limits of the physical endurance is an ongoing process. It isn’t the case that suddenly you are free from the mentality that insists your nervous system is the real you. There is a variable. Sometimes you are more above the complaints of the beast and sometimes you are the beast.

176. nigel harris price - March 23, 2009

175 fofblogmoderator

re: Greg Goodwin’s post…..

I feel that was pretty neutral and useful as well as being pertinent to my psychological situation. But who knows what he will post when he starts responding to other ‘bloggies’?!…..Nigel.

177. Yesri Baba - March 23, 2009

170 Bruce

Perfect timing with the link.

Just in time for the Dickweed psychopath.

178. Crouching Tiger - March 23, 2009

Mr.Goodwin.

“What happens is that at a certain point the elastic bond between your ‘will’ and your body snaps and suddenly you realize that you are not your body. You are not your body. Reach this breaking point and you can then command your body to quit trembling and misbehaving, for a time. The body wants to find relaxation and relief, but a relaxed untroubled life is the life of a dog.”

Not so long ago I posted some comments from Gurdjieff’s meetings which indicated the danger of this attitude. It is psychopathic, and it is opposite of the 4th Way and any other intelligent approach to life.

It is very much Fellowship disease (and dis-ease) to see this oppositional thinking, this almost suicidal ‘breaking-point’, this process of constant warfare with the body… and one of the offshoots is to see the alternative as mind-less relaxation and giving the body everything it wants – or as Goodwin calls it ‘the untroubled life of a dog’. This is not the case. The body needs to be worked hard and can be disciplined over the course of time, but a channel of communication has to be opened. Without relaxation, it will never hear you, or what ‘you’ (whoever that may be) are commanding it to do. It is a false paradigm.

As many other posters have also attested, it is quite possible and desirable, to learn through the body rather than through the mind, and that is what G. was aiming for through the Movements. The goal was the unification of parts, not their separation, in movement and the flow of life.

179. Crouching Tiger - March 23, 2009

P.S. Mind you, the idea of Tai Chi may be a good one. And starting with a lot of little tasks around the house!

180. nigel harris price - March 23, 2009

179 Crouching Tiger

Many of the Martial Arts from the East do prove good for self-confidence and connecting all centres in an ‘integrated whole’. The Western Martial (metal) Arts seem to be thriving well with a certain kind of hand-eye co-ordination as a Yogic Discipline – Concieve and Fabricate, with the Holding of Joy in Action from the beginning to the ending.

‘Desiderata’ states:-

“Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself…..be careful; strive to be happy.”

(P.S. Apologies for flying ‘super-manic’ on Saturday. Sometimes I REALLY CANNOT HELP BEING me! If I am going to be a ‘stimulus-response-machine’, I am damn well going to find a worthy stimulus – the FOF blog, my life’s work, my wonderful friends and my beautiful apartment – and respond responsibly and with a sense of wishing to nourish and positively contribute)…..Nigel.

181. nigel harris price - March 23, 2009

Here’s one for REB to stuff up his features and work with…..

“I wish I could teach you pencils;
Why a broken lead through broken times,
Indicates a feeble essence:
Something to do with diamond theory.

Pressure and fire are the test of reality
Proving that pressure and fire are the making of a human being.”

(nhp) 1995

182. nigel harris price - March 23, 2009

I believe that True Teaching is igniting the pilot light of the ‘mighty furnace’ of another being’s potential…..Nigel.

183. Wouldnt You Like To Know - March 23, 2009

171. Susan Zannos:

Re: PTSD!

Well, HELLO!?

You win the prize.
Permission to use the now freed up:
‘wakeuplittlesuzywakeup’

184. nigel harris price - March 23, 2009

183 Wouldnt…..etc.

That is downright cruel and goes to show that you have never suffered from anything like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Grow up!…..Nigel.

185. nigel harris price - March 23, 2009

Isiah 40, vvs 28-31

“Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is not searching of his understanding.

He giveth power to the to the faint; and TO THEM THAT HAVE NO MIGHT he increaseth strength.

Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the YOUNG MEN SHALL UTTERLY FAIL.

But they that wait upon the Lord SHALL RENEW THEIR STRENGTH; thay shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.”

To Susan Z. (and if you need to take tranqilisers, you regulate them, not the doctors – healthy and well-based diet is a great help for all the senses!)…..Nigel.

186. nigel harris price - March 23, 2009

Anyone “IN” the FOF care to show this to REB?…..

Deuteronomy 13 vvs 1-5

“If there arise among you a prophet, or dreamer of dreams, and give thee a sign or wonder,

And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

Thou shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God proveth you, to prove whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because HE HATH SPOKEN TO TURN YOU AWAY…..”

…..the rest of that chapter is also worth reading…..Nigel.

187. elena - March 23, 2009

Dear Susan,

Thank you for being so open about your state in such a public space.

I would also like to thank you for your book on types which I thought was one of the best works Fellowship members ever put together. Then I would like to invite you to spend some time in the Caribbean Coast where I have what Girard called a “permanent camp”. It is a good place to rest and be happy because the Sun is out and the Ocean welcomes one to play. Just watching the chicken move about digging in the garden is relaxing and hammocks always help! I’ll probably go in Easter if you’d like some company, there’s an independent little cottage next to mine, but you could also come with a friend or two some other time. You could pay me ten dollars a day if you wish to pay me, I’d like to buy a new mattress so that it is more comfortable for visitors.

I would also like to ask you what is the nature of your depression? What does it say? My daughter, who was also in the Fellowship since she was eighteen and is now 27 and left about a year ago, has also been going through a powerful depression for many months. Depression to me is the outstretched process of unresolved suffering. As if I had stretched the black over and over again until I realized that no matter how black I stretched it, white was always beneath it!

One of the sources of my depressions has been inner considering or the feeling that I was not valued by anyone. All lovers have been a means to be valued which is probably why they’ve lasted short. The other source was not valuing anything enough. Identified with a few people and the expectations of a life in which only social processes mattered, took away the value of the little things. After getting out from the hospital with my head cracked in two by the blow, I was able to recover the joy of the little things for a long time! Just learning to stand up again took a month and to walk again took two. The first time they took me out for a ride along the seashore, the red sunset in the horizon above the sea, looked like the first day of creation! It was glorious!

I am clear that I needed help and gave out little signs like yours in this post but no body really listened, too busy with their own depression or life. They did hear after the blow and took concise care of helping me recover. Sometimes we are so vulnerable that we need to be looked after like a baby and there are hardly any mothers around. In fact society’s been busy discarding them for so long that being depressed about the state of things is a healthier response to the acknowledgement of our conditions than pretending that everything is just dandy!

What did help me at some point was the “interiorization” that not everyone and everything in life was fucked up and that life too had done its best to move along with its own difficulties! Life! Mankind! Society as I knew it! People! The hunger and despair of people in the streets, the sad view of children begging, the resignation of the people coming back from the factory gave room for the perception of culture under the light of an on going struggle that was real. Everything I had taken for granted came to life and I realized that the only thing that was being asked of me was that I take care of my own well-being or the inner atmosphere of my soul. Life was busy enough to have to carry the only thing I could in fact carry my self. My conditions have never yet been so difficult that there is a lack of food or shelter but I perceived a myriad other reasons to cry for and most of them were unnecessary suffering! After hurting my self that was absolutely clear and I wanted to take care of my inner state and not hold anyone else responsible for it. I then joined the Fellowship hoping a System could help me finish what I had already started and it was an interesting contrast to what I was desperately trying to achieve.

Since I left the Fellowship the blog has helped hold on to the illusion that there is a community here and it’s made me stronger. Many other little things have helped over time, including Rio Cedro, the cottage on the coast, but one of the things that has helped miracles is working with my hands again. Sewing! Making cotton dolls for my self and children when they come, with just coloured cotton and a needle: Soft, tender small figures come out of the cotton like man in the hands of God and THAT has filled me with joy! That! moving with friends playing children’s games as well as flute and guitar lessons. The flute is a wonderful instrument that allows without much struggle to bring out music one already knew. What seems to bring the well-being is willingly assuming the role of creator and directly connecting with the little things in life. The passive joys like television and even reading don’t seem to ignite the self to allow one to hold enough joy to not be overdrawn by the depression. Taking long walks with a fellow dog that enjoys them as if they were the ultimate gift also helps!

Do you live alone? I do too, it feels good after thirty years of looking after others but going out to meet people with no matter what excuse or lesson helps wonders. Aloneness doesn’t allow one to reference one’s self. People always help tune the state by making fun of one’s excesses or outwardly rejecting them. If one can allow for both, one is sure to get tuned! It is easy to allow for both when one has recognized one’s nothingness with profound compassion and a smile!

Please contact me at ludotekaatsucceed.net if Rio Cedro tempts you at all. Just the change of air could do wonders for you!

188. Yesri Baba - March 23, 2009

184 Nigel

I took WYLTK comment to mean that it is commonly known that people leaving cults suffer from PTSD.

People like Greg Goodwin who write reams and reams of insane crap, some even about PTSD and don’t even know they are suffering from it.

189. Another Name - March 23, 2009

143

Crouching tiger, hello

About building a soul.

10 year old: Dad I do not believe in growing a soul. You have one or you do not have one.

Parents in front of the car, wisely, held their tongues.

Children tell the truth?????

Love to you and allllllll your loved ones.

190. brucelevy - March 23, 2009

184. nigel harris price

I think WYLTK was agreeing with Susan, in a light way. Calm down young man.

191. Vena - March 23, 2009

Elena
Thank you for your kind and beautiful post to Susan. It helped me also.

192. in2it - March 23, 2009

Susan, very helpful and pertinent comment re: post traumatic stress disorder. Thanks for sharing that. It’s revealing.

One thing about cults: what’s obvious to others on the outside is not so obvious to someone stuck on the inside. (and to some degree, part of me is still “in”, and is still not seeing the obvious, and I personally believe there are many people reading and participating here who are similar that way, to a greater or lesser degree).

One example of this is that someone on the outside may clearly see that the cult is insane — unequivocally insane — and to arrive at this conclusion they don’t need extensive analysis or listen to hundreds of arguments. It just is.

Those on the inside want others to see the “positive aspects” about the cult, and how it has made their lives better, and all of the wonderful experiences they’ve had. The more they look for the “positive” to support some sort of comforting notion that it’s normal and healthy to be in the cult, the more blind they become to the obvious.. that it’s not normal and it’s not healthy.

I like to focus on the word “post” in post traumatic stress disorder. Post, as in “the past,” recovering from, healing from, and with a sincere sense of meaning to life and hope for the future. I hope it helps for you and others to know that you are not alone.

193. in2it - March 23, 2009

Vena, Elena, yes thank you.

194. sallymcnally - March 23, 2009

Knowing Susan Z the fact that she made it clear what was happening to her in public is a call for help. Any thoughts that come from a place of true caring for another human being I’m sure would be appreciated by her. I would like to say to Susan remember to be kind to yourself. There are many ways to do that and for each of us it’s different. I know for me in the past there has been a habit of pushing the self destruct button. This only makes it worse and prolongs the agony. Namaste

Sally McNally, formerly WULSWU

195. in2it - March 23, 2009

Sally, one of the reasons that we aren’t kind to ourselves re: the cult experience is that we hold onto this idea that the cult was a normal human experience but that we just didn’t have “what it took” to measure up and make the best of it. Growing from that thought is a lot of feelings of self-doubt, guilt, and regret.

We may have been sincere in what we sought in the FOF, and maybe we did have some positive experiences. But when a person fully realizes that they were immersed in a harmful organization, where insanity rules, I truly believe that’s where being kind to yourself begins. That’s where you can stop blaming yourself, and see some hope for the future.

196. fofblogmoderator - March 23, 2009

I have received quite a few private emails asking that Greg not be allowed back on. As I stated in my post #175, I don’t think it’s a good idea either.

If anyone has a desire to read Greg’s thoughts or engage in a dialog with him I’m sure you will be able to search and find his comments on his personal blog site.

197. sallymcnally - March 23, 2009

#195: In or out of the FOF, there’s plenty of insanity to go around. That reminds of a quote I saw on the board at the gatehouse years ago: “One often meets ones’ fate on the road one took to avoid it.” As much as many of us joined the FOF to avoid the ‘craziness’ of the world, we stepped into the flames.

198. Crouching Tiger - March 23, 2009

187 Elena.

Good stuff!

199. WhaleRider - March 23, 2009

“So I was In my GP’s office, again, plaguing him with the apparently endless symptoms, real and imaged, connected with being depressed about 150% of the time, which monotonous whine he has been putting up with for about two years now, when I happened to mention my 30 years in the FoF. “Aha,” sez he, brightening up since he had about run out of pills and ideas, “You’ve got PTSD!” Since I have more or less consistently managed to stay out of mine fields and artillery fire, this notion surprised me considerably. So I hit Google, and sure enough, listed among causing factors on a couple web pages was “cult membership.” Thought I’d share that with any among you who are having difficulties thinking of any reason to get out of bed in the mornings. Or afternoons. Or evenings…”

My question is: where in Susan’s post is she asking for help from us with the PTSD she may or may not be suffering from…?

Thanks, Susan for making it personal and bringing us back to life. I understand how you feel.

Crouching Tiger:
I agree with your assessment of Mr and Mr GG. Getting raped once, doesn’t mean that getting raped a second time is any easier. Nor would it be healthy for a victim of rape to seek out rape as a cure to the PTSD that rape causes. On the one hand, strenuous exercise (stressing the body) is a natural remedy for a depressed mood, but on the other hand “therapeutic immersion techniques” in my experience is usually only used to work through simple phobias, not traumatic stress. It would be unwise to send a soldier suffering from PTSD back into combat. However, if that same soldier left the military life and became involved in a dynamic struggle against the war, that experience of taking responsibility for their role they played might prove beneficial to the soldier’s mental and emotional health.

elena:
I agree that the “sewing trance” is a good way to manage negative moods; I do something similar. Thanks for sharing your personal experience. Please spare me the “formatory” cult language, though, in our discussion about Steiner’s theories. It feels judgmental. A living organism doesn’t need “feet” to move freely on the planet.

200. in2it - March 23, 2009

“#195: In or out of the FOF, there’s plenty of insanity to go around. That reminds of a quote I saw on the board at the gatehouse years ago: “One often meets ones’ fate on the road one took to avoid it.” As much as many of us joined the FOF to avoid the ‘craziness’ of the world, we stepped into the flames.”

And obviously that’s also true in reverse: leaving the fof does not guarantee an escape from the absurdity and insanity of the world, which is one realization that makes leaving all the more difficult for some of us.

However, there is something different about cult insanity. The fof does pretend to be a sanctuary from the world’s insanity, but all along contributing its own version of it.

The FOF, particularly, pretends to be different, and above all of that — not corrupt, not pretentious, not deceptive. That lie is maybe the worst of all of its lies.

201. elena - March 23, 2009

Sally, thanks for the invitation to check Walter Russel.

Unfortunately I cannot agree on the indefinite banning of anyone. A door can open and close and that is very easy on the internet. People change and those who are unwilling to change or allow for change aren’t any more free than the others.

Attacking someone because that’s become your habit every time you hear their name is an expression of your own limitations and the things you want to hold on to, your unmovable imaginary picture of your self. I am happy to agree on banning Greg with the first abuse he expresses but the fact that he even cares to come back is enough of a sign to let him in. It’s not like there are so many, so willing to participate that we couldn’t do without other points of view. Can’t you let someone speak without reacting to it?

One of the things that can be observed about a blog like this is how we repeat our selves consistently. Each one of us as an individual and all as a group. As if we could only dance on the same spot missing the freedom of dancing. Giving anyone the opportunity to prove to himself and the rest that changes have taken place is important. Why do we even write letters in private to the moderator to put pressure on him alone? On something that actually has to do with every one here? And if the moderator is subjective enough and bends to the pressure, don’t we begin to have a club and not a public square? So you throw people out and never let them back in? With what right do you think you own any space enough to have the power to decide the banning of anyone for ever and ever? I’m not talking to the moderator but to anyone with such extreme fascist position.

What makes those who attack Greg without him even speaking better than Greg? So he’s been violent and rudeless to people in the past and that condemns him for ever? Not even the right to speak which is all he can really do here? Is there some criminal charge against Greg Goodwin that allows you to ban him? What does Greg or anyone have to do to prove that they have understood and have the right to at least speak?

What’s so constructive about Bruce’s recent post? I have enormous respect for you Bruce and am happy you are here to give us some relativity about our selves but what am I supposed to do with a post like this. Do you think you are not as intimidating as Greg? Am I or others here supposed to look the other way because God Bruce has spoken and we’re useless assholes with shitbrains and no chance of redemption in your absolutely objective eyes?

Give me a break!

How dare you ban a Greg Goodwin and put up with the rest of the bullshit that comes out of here every day without at least saying something about it.

Any one here who thinks they are the absolute authority that can judge the rest and bring nothing but their little judgements without ever offering any thing better than that is in no way different to Greg Goodwin who at least, once in a while also tries to think no matter how off he might be.

1. Dickweed 420 up, 25 down
1) A completely self-absorbed, useless asshole with shit for brains;

2) A person so irredeemably stupid that their idiotic behavior causes pain to everyone that they interact with.
My neighbor’s such a fucking dickweed.
dickhead asswipe shithead fuckhead dickwad
by Rusty616 Oct 11, 2006 share this
2. dickweed 249 up, 125 down
Asshole, dumbass, know-it-all, ass-kisser
Billy-Bob kisses up to get ahead at work.
by B Dominguez Dec 22, 2003 share this
3. Dickweed 162 up, 63 down
The point at which one has left the realm of dickhead. As it is, a step up from before mentioned, dickhead.
A step below the vile, dickhole, but close enough in comparison to merit the promotion soon after.
“You’re a real…….dickweed.”
“Hey, look at that……..dickweed.”

202. sallymcnally - March 23, 2009

The FOF, particularly, pretends to be different, and above all of that — not corrupt, not pretentious, not deceptive. That lie is maybe the worst of all of its lies.

The FOF is made up of its members. It’s not an entity unto itself. Each person has to take responsibility for their part in the lie. Those are lies we told ourselves and WE pretended to be different. We the victims are also the perpetrators of the lie. Namaste.

203. sallymcnally - March 23, 2009

Sorry, regarding my last response #203, the first paragraph was taken from #200, and in my second paragraph I responded to it. SallyMcNally

204. Ill Never Tell - March 23, 2009

175. fofblogmoderator

‘Greg Goodwin . . . wants back in.’

Not AGAIN!? Surely the number of sane persons posting here will dwindle should that happen; beginning with me – unless, of course, I am not sane; which is highly likely.

205. Susan Zannos - March 23, 2009

Have any among you read “Watchmen?”

206. Opus 111 - March 23, 2009

Re: Greg Goodwin

Those who read french should try “la Zisanie” in the Asterix series.

Some people have a knack for bringing controversy, quarrels, invectives at the mere mention of their name…

207. Mick Danger - March 23, 2009

Don’t worry (be happy) Steve, you’re right and you’re right to be ticked off.

208. Panorea - March 23, 2009

Fofblogmoderator!

Thank you for your incredible patience

209. brucelevy - March 23, 2009

201. elena

“Attacking someone because that’s become your habit every time you hear their name is an expression of your own limitations and the things you want to hold on to, your unmovable imaginary picture of your self.”

That’s a straw man. This is a specific person with a specific, repeatable history that has not deviated since the beginning.

“Not even the right to speak which is all he can really do here? ”

Greg speaks on his own site and excerpts postsfrom here. If you’re so interested in his view why not partake of his site on your own volition.

“What’s so constructive about Bruce’s recent post? I have enormous respect for you Bruce and am happy you are here to give us some relativity about our selves but what am I supposed to do with a post like this. Do you think you are not as intimidating as Greg? Am I or others here supposed to look the other way because God Bruce has spoken and we’re useless assholes with shitbrains and no chance of redemption in your absolutely objective eyes?”

It’s called humor, of which you are sadly lacking.

“How dare you ban a Greg Goodwin and put up with the rest of the bullshit that comes out of here every day without at least saying something about it.”

How bout we ban you and take Greg back?

“How dare you ban a Greg Goodwin…”

No, you give me a break.

Once again, the Urban Dictionary is meant as humor. If you don’t find it funny, don’t laugh. Personally I think playing with language and words is a lot of fun. Others may not, and that’s fine.

I have a question. Why is it that people with significant boundary issues are frequently defending and inviting others with similar boundary issues? Is it because it makes one appear personally less offensive maybe?

And no, I’m NOT one of the people who emailed the moderator.

“but the fact that he even cares to come back is enough of a sign to let him in.”

That’s just plain horse shit.

“It’s not like there are so many, so willing to participate that we couldn’t do without other points of view.”

Straw man.

“Why do we even write letters in private to the moderator to put pressure on him alone? On something that actually has to do with every one here?”

Because some things are private, between two people.

210. Yesri Baba - March 23, 2009

201 Elena

When Greg Goodwin changes for the better it will be obvious to all. There will be a column of smoke, visible from the four corners of the earth, rising from the flames of everything he has ever written.

211. brucelevy - March 23, 2009

201. elena

And my Urban Dictionary citation came BEFORE the moderator mentioned any contact from Greg. The connection was made later by someone else (Yesri).

212. in2it - March 23, 2009

Sally 203: “We the victims are also the perpetrators of the lie.”

… when we don’t hear the truth, or are resistant to it.

213. brucelevy - March 23, 2009

201. elena

And I think the fact that we are again back to YOUR usual bullshit is a pretty good sign of the moderator’s magnanimity.

214. brucelevy - March 23, 2009

You’re a sick puppy Elena.

215. elena - March 23, 2009

That must make you magnanimous Bruce!

216. nigel harris price - March 24, 2009

Let’s get useful here…..

Susan Z—-s

Even if it takes all day, try…..

Washing the dishes
Cleaning the floor
Washing clothes in the washing machine
Tidying the house

I could go on, but…..

Nigel…..(P.S. Don’t try all of the above at once)

Hint: My consultant calls it Behavioural Activation – especially useful in Winter Months. N.

217. elena - March 24, 2009

Fofblogmoderator,

I didn’t know those things were happening and judge only by what I see people doing here, nor have I ever visited Greg’s site, it doesn’t interest me. It’s the principle that I care about and when you sent in his post I thought that was what was being considered. Had I been informed of those things that he writes on his site when you offered his post I would have thought otherwise.

Thank you for moderating. The “dare you” wasn’t even for you but for anyone with an extreme position.

Thanks Vena for 191.

It’s fine to delete those posts that include such constructive adjectives but I’d like the rest to remain:

Unfortunately I cannot agree on the indefinite banning of anyone. A door can open and close and that is very easy on the internet. People change and those who are unwilling to change or allow for change aren’t any more free than the others.

Attacking someone because that’s become your habit every time you hear their name is an expression of your own limitations and the things you want to hold on to, your unmovable imaginary picture of your self. I am happy to agree on banning abusive posters but it’s not like there are so many, so willing to participate that we couldn’t do with other points of view. Can’t you let someone speak without reacting to it?

One of the things that can be observed about a blog like this is how we repeat our selves consistently. Each one of us as an individual and all as a group. As if we could only dance in circles in one spot missing the freedom of dancing.

218. in2it - March 24, 2009

Vena 219, I like your intentions, but I could think of about a thousand posts that I’d like to delete, some of them mine. On the other hand, I do hear the sound of computers being turned off — one of them mine — so your concern is real in that way.

I was watching Obama last night on 60 Minutes. He had that gaffe the other day regarding the Special Olympics on Jay Leno, and then last night he absolutely “aced” an interview that lasted for a good 40 minutes. One of the things he said about the financial crisis was that it would be impossible to come up with a plan that did not receive some criticism from a large number of people, while receiving support from many others, because people have interests that are odds with each other. One policy pleases the auto companies, for example, but displeases Wall Street, and vice versa, or displeases the military, or displeases the republicans in the Senate, or whatever. Every group has a group of “experts” coming out of the woodwork to criticize his plan as part of their lobbying efforts to protect their wealth and power and egos. It never ends.

Agreement and harmony is something that we can barely achieve within ourselves, let alone amongst each other. The fof pretended that it had harmony, that’s all. It was a big facade.

People are quick to suggest that any “negativity” on the blog is somehow a reflection of how bad things get outside the fof. No… Like someone wrote above, there’s plenty of insanity to go around both inside and outside of the fof. This is just an outgrowth of the negative topic about which we speak. If it’s more “positive” within the fof, it’s only because Burton and Company are just very good at changing the subject.

219. Vena - March 24, 2009

My main interest in the blog is in it’s potential to reveal the Fellowship for what it is and to therefore be a warning that might keep people from joining. When the posts get too bizarre and frankly unpleasant, I feel that it not only loses that potential but also loses any credibilty it may have amassed through the many other thoughtful and sincere posts.
There may be some people here who would be better off having their own blogs or websites where personal issues can be addressed and discussed by those who are interested.

220. nigel harris price - March 24, 2009

221 in2it

That is what any ‘spiritual evolution’ is all about – defeating the Ego, whilst growing and nourishing the Self. Then one can Truly Give. May the blogsite support this!…..Nigel.

221. WhaleRider - March 24, 2009

FOF Inserts New Definition into Urban Dicktionary

Organ House, CA (AP)- The Fellowship of Friends, a Northern Californian cult run by a elderly homosexual man known for his sexual excesses has recently requested that a new definition be added to the Urban Dicktionary.

The new word is “dickduty”, which is defined by the inner circle of young male concubines to be the time they are required to spend in the personal company of the cult leader at the cult leader’s request and not by their own volition.

“Sorry honey, I won’t be home for dinner, I have dickduty at the Galleria tonight.”

222. nigel harris price - March 24, 2009

“New every morning is the Love;
Our Waking and Uprising prove:

(English Hymnal)…..Nigel.

223. X-ray - March 24, 2009

Why not? Let Greg come in. He’ll proof himself to be an asshole before we’ll hit another page.

224. 411 - March 24, 2009

Let’s talk about how conscious Robert Burton is.

Burton stopped all “teaching” somewhere around 199? until somewhere around 199? (somebody else can fill in the blanks, I just don’t remember the dates now). He lead no meetings. He would have small dinners in the Goethe room a couple of times a week and charge I think around 100.00. You even got to take home a bottle of Renaissance Wine as a gift. Remember how Conscious Bob would throw a half-filled glass of red wine over his shoulder to “create memory” somewhere during the course of dinner? He would do his “show” (as Spaulding used to call it) week after week, that is until Eddie told him one night how the red wine was totally ruining the the floor with stains they couldn’t get out. After that he switched to water. He also used to toss dinner rolls across the table at you and test your reflexes.

I remember being at a dinner when he wasn’t sure if the list of 44 counscious beings was really 44. He wanted someone to “do the research” and double-check the list to see if it was 44 or not.

Then there was the clickers. That’s where everyone was instructed to try to remember themselves 100 times a day. Since so many people were unable to keep track of the number in their heads they started buying those head-count clickers you see used at stadiums. They would click the counter each time they thought they were remembering themselves. I shit you not!

How about the “first bite” exercise. Initially it was FOF protocol to be intentional while eating and “remember your first bite” when you were dining. Then it morphed into the idea of taking your first bite and putting it to the side on the plate and never touching it; sacrificing your first bite. Oh the volunteering suffering! It was too much for us. So the next incarnation was to take your first bite and give it to the person sitting next to you. It was like being at a smorgasbord and it was all initiated by conscious Bob.

I could go on but it’s late and I’ve got a lot of sleeping to do.

Peace

225. nigel harris price - March 24, 2009

224 (411)

“Oh! For a ‘twiddley-dee’ 3rd state,
That would invite no change of being…..”

(with apologies to Will Shakespeare)

It is actually the pressure of life itself that produces the ‘Questioning of Self’ and (as my teacher training taught me) Critical Analysis and Reflective Practice. LIFE IS YOUR TEACHER, FOLKS!!!!!…..Nigel.

226. lauralupa - March 24, 2009

elena 220
“One of the things that can be observed about a blog like this is how we repeat our selves consistently. Each one of us as an individual and all as a group. As if we could only dance in circles in one spot missing the freedom of dancing.”

This is an accurate observation, but IMO the same can be said about any place, individual or group. It’s called “human behaviour”.
For me, observing the limitations of humanity’s inner freedom (mine included) was one of the main reasons for becoming fascinated with Gurdjieff’s ideas and subsequently joining the Fellowship. Only to discover that people in the cult (me included) only dreamed they were becoming less mechanical, while in fact becoming more so.

Can we find a way out of this repetitiveness or are we just stuck in an endless behavioural loop, slowly devolving on the way to ever increasing limitation and reiteration? Judging from the behaviour of most old people I know, the general outlook is pretty bleak. For sure, finding oneself in an enclosed and thought limiting cult like the FoF cannot and does not help.

Speaking for myself, I try my best to remain openminded and openhearted, and invite new understandings and experiences, while staying at peace with the fact that “‘I am what I am and that’s all that I am”, as Popeye used to say. I welcome any further thoughts on this subject.

Susan, I suffered from a form of emotional numbness for quite a while after leaving the FoF, without even realising it. It takes time to completely heal the emotional disconnection from one’s family, community and society, and also from one’s own body, intuitions and emotions. I have been out fifteen years. Some parts of myself re-emerged more quickly, others took much longer. Only after discovering the blog I was able to openly speak to my friends about my “American experiences”. I just recently rediscovered the pleasure of cooking and eating well, and I am still working on recuperating my creative side.

While I definitely can’t blame all my emotional and mental problems on the FoF, I know that the first few years out in “life” were really hard. I found it especially difficult to enjoy life, to let go of all the judgemental attitudes about myself and others, to cut myself some slack and let myself be imperfect.
Be kind to yourself, and don’t lose hope. The cult brainwashing IS one of the things you can change about yourself!

227. lauralupa - March 24, 2009

just to prove my dancing in one spot…

228. Tatyana - March 24, 2009

I had an interesting meeting yesterday with the members of Gurdjieff Foundation. I am still in shock about it, I think.

We talked for an hour and for me it was as if I had to learn how to walk anew. Everything about the work I was relying on turned out to have a different meaning for them. I was glad I did my little research before I met them about the 4th way ideas, so in a way I was prepared to the fact that “many I’s”, “chief feature”, “a,b,c influences” and 3 lines of Work have a very different meaning in the 4th Way to what we are used to in FOF. But it was quite amazing to find out that even the idea of “impressions” are unrecognizably different! When talked about impressions in FOF it was always around the idea of “gold alchemy” and “fine hydrogens”. When I mentioned this, my Foundation people could not understand what am I talking about. The words are the same but the meaning is not familiar. Finally I understood they mean “impressions” as close to “observations” and not as “being impressed by something”.

So, just to share with you what I have learned so far:

C influence is a direct influence and not bodiless conscious beings hovering in the room, “helping us to escape”

Robert is not “the only conscious being on the planet earth” (I know it is very hard to believe)

44 conscious beings might not even were conscious!

Body types is not the 4th way idea, and the feature ascribed to each body type – especially.

The idea about many I’s. Many I’s are not the same as many thoughts. “I” is not the “thought”. So when you are separate from “the I’s” and just sitting in silence in a social situation you are not necessarily more conscious it does look weird…

Obedience is not required on the 4th way

Fine impressions and gold alchemy are not required to awaken (what am I going to do now with my reception dresses???)

I would not even go into the “stewart-9 of hearts-king of clubs-4 wordless breaths-sequence” nonsense!!!

229. in2it - March 24, 2009

411: “Then there was the clickers. That’s where everyone was instructed to try to remember themselves 100 times a day. Since so many people were unable to keep track of the number in their heads they started buying those head-count clickers you see used at stadiums. They would click the counter each time they thought they were remembering themselves. I shit you not!”

I confirm that he shits you not!

Good info 411. I think this is another one of those memories I filed away because it’s just too painful to carry around. Argh, clickers.

230. in2it - March 24, 2009

Nigel: “That is what any ’spiritual evolution’ is all about – defeating the Ego, whilst growing and nourishing the Self. Then one can Truly Give. May the blogsite support this!”

Nigel, speaking of the ego, that is the reason behind The Clickers. They allowed people 1) to show that they were with the “in” crowd at the time and “valued” the “school”, and 2) that they were obviously self-remembering each time they pulled the clicker out of their pockets and clicked it.

It was the perfect way to display one’s “level of being.”

On the other hand, even “quiet presence” can become a display for others to see. Even the words on this page, even if I am just a keyboard and monitor.

It, whatever it is, is invisible.

231. Panorea - March 24, 2009

224. 411.
“Then there was the clickers. That’s where everyone was instructed to try to remember themselves 100 times a day. Since so many people were unable to keep track of the number in their heads they started buying those head-count clickers you see used at stadiums. They would click the counter each time they thought they were remembering themselves. I shit you not!”

This is so hilarious! I remember how ridiculous it looked. It was one of the things I really refused to do. But I remember Robert’s sex slaves (sorry for the term guys…), they would walk around with that clicker in their pockets, click…click…click…one more moment to add to our eternal life…click…click..click

Children in the fellowship and how it kept some of us sane:
The daughter of a good friend who was clicking around his day found the clicker a very interesting toy indeed…

Moment 1 (click…)”Why are you having this dad?”
“Hmmmm…I am counting airplanes darling… ”

Moment 2 (unclicked…)”Dad you have already missed two!”
“ClickClickClick….”

232. sharon - March 24, 2009

I thought it was funny that they called them “Golf Clickers” (golf being a “gold alchemy” sport), when to me they were knitting row counters. And do I remember that they tried to sell them to the faithful for about twice the price one could buy them for in a knitting store?

411 – Burton had stopped “teaching” when I joined in 1982 and bereft students were still talking about it in meetings then, so he probably quit in 80 or 81? Until sometime in the mid-90’s, dinners were 10-12 in the “Wordsworth Room” and free (and about once a year or 2 unless one was “inner circle” – not I). When he started charging $100 one would have a raft of souvenirs to take home – bottle of wine, chocolates, card. All the women were given a corsage at the beginning of the evening. Very fancy, very formal, very pretentious. And the musicians used to receive a bottle of wine (that stopped late 90’s? early 2000?) as a thank-you.

233. elena - March 24, 2009

Hi Laura,

It’s bad enough that people repeat our selves in life but the Fellowship structures its lifelessness in such a way that people crystallize repeating a form, not even them selves!
There, we never get the opportunity to observe where we are mechanical because as long as we can repeat the form faithfully, the doctrine, without questioning and the mannerism with increasing distaste, we are tolerated as “good students”!

One way to look at it is as if our behaviour were like a spiral and we only got the opportunity to watch it repeating itself out of harmony when we bump into others. The “bumping” makes the behaviour recover itself and harmonise when there is the willingness. Other wise the account can go on forever! That’s a social way of working with it and it seems to go nowhere when there’s no common aim. The individual way of dealing with it involves just as much friction and what holds one in place is getting grounded on one’s self as an aim. The point of reference seems necessary in either case other wise the turning becomes indefinite without going anywhere.

In clubs, schools or any other institution people have common aims that they have to adjust to. The common aim in a Public Square is that people allow each other to coexist! They don’t do that in any other place because the aim places people in unequal conditions and the coexisting pact is based on hierarchy. In the Public Square, people sit around, talk a little, smile at each other and go home! The understanding of that leisure seems to be the option in a world in which the Public Square is invaded by many who we don’t know and don’t care about, unless we are human enough to want to care, which is rare! It puts the spiral under pressure! Tests our values and confronts our habits! We are becoming one world and don’t seem ready to assume such responsibility but it’s in the Public Square where people meet and fall in love, take their children out for fresh air and struggle for new ideas to rule our lives!

Have a good day! Thanks for the video, it was so idiotic that it was fun!

Here’s another way of turning around one’s self with some freedom and in harmony with others!

234. sallymcnally - March 24, 2009

#231: Now that’s what I call a really funny story! Thanks! Made me laugh hard. Click, click, click.

235. sharon - March 24, 2009

…and if you didn’t have at least 100 clicks on your counter at the end of the day, you were a real loser in the self-remembering competition.

236. Tatyana - March 24, 2009

I am sorry, can someone tell me why is this funny – to try to self-remember 100 times a day? I don’t get the humor of it.

I did not use the clicker, I was using my fingers, by the way…

237. brucelevy - March 24, 2009

236. Tatyana

If you look at it as irony, it’s funny.

238. brucelevy - March 24, 2009

236. Tatyana

and pathetic.

Ultimate mash-up:

http://thru-you.com/#/videos/

239. elena - March 24, 2009

Girls gaily giggling down the street
bitter bitterness silently remains behind.

240. elena - March 24, 2009

Tatyana,

What’s funny about it for me is that when it was happening I think many of us knew unconsciously that it was the beginning of the end! It was so obviously ridiculous that no pomposity could hide it and Robert’s “beyondness” became more clear.

Of course, if you look at it as the peak of indoctrinated behavior you could just as well sit down and cry for a couple of hours.

241. in2it - March 24, 2009

236. Tatyana “I am sorry, can someone tell me why is this funny – to try to self-remember 100 times a day? I don’t get the humor of it.”

Maybe it’s gallows humor. It’s not that funny to me, either. But there’s something similar in using the word “It” to replace the word “I” and talking with “life people” by saying, “It would like the mixed green salad.”

You bring up a good point, though. The fact that we were supposedly “self-remembering” when we were doing the clicking, we convinced ourselves there was nothing odd about doing the clicking, or counting in general.

I’m getting too analytical about this, but since you asked, the laughter about the topic is the sense of how easily we can ignore the absurdities of the fof simply because we attached “the work” to it. We justified it by saying to ourselves and each other that it’s perfectly normal to count the moments in a day with a clicker because we are “working against inner considering” and so forth. And that is was “practical” and “useful” and sorts of bullshit to make it seem perfectly normal.

All cults have the same justification mechanisms to explain their specific weirdnesses. We’re no different.

242. Tatyana - March 24, 2009

If you don’t believe that self-remembering has frequency, duration and depth, or does not make sense at all – then yes, it is funny. But if you believe in self-remembering and want to practice it more often, then I don’t see why the aim of remembering yourself 100 times a day is a bad thing.

243. brucelevy - March 24, 2009

242. Tatyana

“If you don’t believe that self-remembering has frequency, duration and depth, or does not make sense at all – then yes, it is funny.”

Even leaving out your “work language” that’s quite a leaping assumption about other people when the irony of the matter is not about what you term “self remembering” and/or effort that at all. The irony and humor is about the commercial and fatuous quasi-spiritual bullshit that the FOF sells. Other disciplines sometimes use beads or other fetishes to help one fall asleep thinking they’re waking up. Rote repetition masquerading as effort and awakening. From the outside it’s very amusing and often pathetic. I think you may be still too “close” to the bs to appreciate the irony.

244. veramente - March 24, 2009

#242

Tatyana, if you take self remembering as a simple exercise to be more in the moment, I do not see any harm in “doing” it.
I used to activate the chime on my watch to remind myself to breathe deeply every hour, at most 12 times a day? In between it was up to me to work on freeing my breath.

What seems a bit ridiculous about the 100 times a day exercise is the lunatic effort behind it. I am sure many people took it seriously and then compulsively.
In Burton’s language self remembering means: forget yourself, your humanness, your needs…etc. clever hypnosis!
Eventually I came to think that self-remembering was a distraction, a numbing for the real feelings and discriminative thoughts to emerge in my often very confused psyche. It became a denial exercise…for me anyway.
Perhaps you can tell me/us what you find useful in self-remembering, what it means to you.

245. WhaleRider - March 24, 2009

tatyana:
I agree with Bruce. Eventually the clicking becomes mechanical and sleep inducing, that’s what is funny about it. Just because you are clicking away doesn’t make you more conscious…same with the sequence of 30 canine commands or shaving your head and wearing purple robes.

It is also the same with the effort at “self-remembering” a la FOF.

Don’t let yourself be dependent upon someone else to continually define what self-remembering is for you, otherwise you will be under their control, and that’s what makes a cult a cult….you will be practicing not self-remembering but cult-remembering, which just leads to masochism.

IMO, you give up your self will only as long as necessary to produce a lasting impression and then you must reclaim your self will; for it shall only be your self will that shall keep you awake in the end, not practicing stupid rituals that define club membership.

Once a lasting impression is made, at that point the effort to self remember will be not to make the effort you have made in the past, but to do as Ouspensky commanded, “Abandon the system!”…and learn to fly by your own instruments, otherwise you won’t have a self to remember.

Let your conscience be your guide.

246. Crouching Tiger - March 24, 2009

Gurdjieff used to say that it didn’t make much sense to do the ‘work’ for more than one-third of a day… For the rest of the time he said, ‘Send the Work to the devil!’.

247. brucelevy - March 24, 2009

245 WR

“MO, you give up your self will only as long as necessary to produce a lasting impression and then you must reclaim your self will”

Yes

248. Yesri Baba - March 24, 2009

“It, whatever it is, is invisible.”

It, whatever it is, is always present.

It, whatever it is, is simpler than any attempt to describe it.

It, is all anyone has ever known.

It, is closer than your own skin.

It, gets caught up in all kinds of fantastic esoteric ideas about what it is.

It, is described in unpretentious, non-power/vanity based systems as original mind, ordinary mind, the natural state.

It, gets caught up and hypnotized by surroundings and memory.

It, is so fucking goddamn simple and obvious and familiar and ordinary when you see it you will hit yourself in the head with a hammer for being so dense.

It, whatever it is, is YOU.

249. Ill Never Tell - March 24, 2009

Like in these Bob Dylan
Subterranean Homesick Blues
lyrics:

‘Johnny’s in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I’m on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he’s got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It’s somethin’ you did
God knows when
But you’re doin’ it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin’ for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten
Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin’ that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone’s tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the D. A. . .’

When little, I would say to my mother something like:
‘Johnny’s in the basement; Mixing up the medicine. . .’

or

‘David’s got some firecrackers and he wants to play with them at the playground. Can I go, too.’

or

‘Tracy’s going on vacation to the coast for the summer. Can I do that, too.’

My mother would say something like:
‘If so-and-so says, ‘Their going to jump off a roof. Does that mean you have to, too?’

That’s what that clicker idea was. Crazy and bizarre activity, that in your better judgment, you might hear those words from your mother in this refrain:
‘Just because Robert says to. . . ‘

or

‘Robert is doing such-and-such. Does that mean I have to. . .’

FoF might see that as feminine dominance, but:
Just because something is a wild and crazy idea and everybody’s doing it, does not mean YOU have to do it. Peer pressure is more like pier pressure: Just because everyone is taking a long walk down a short pier, does not mean you should.

250. Yesri Baba - March 24, 2009

That is why the clickers are HILARIOUS!!!!!

251. Tatyana - March 24, 2009

Thank you all for your replies.

veramente: “Perhaps you can tell me/us what you find useful in self-remembering, what it means to you.”

Well… if I go back to the beginning of where the work started for me and why did I take it seriously it all comes to the books of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky.
What I read recently in “Psychology of Man’s Possible Evolution” was what I heard on the 1 prospective student meeting and this is what I wanted to work with.

Basically #1. to verify than a man is incomplete being that ascribes to himself qualities that he does not posses s.a. consciousness, will, unity and individuality.
And #2 – work in order to get those qualities.

I verified (yes, this word again) that it is true that I don’t have one I and one will and that most of the time I am in imagination or identification, have no control over my negative emotions etc. You know all that. The next step was to find a practice that can help to change my level of being. First and the most important practice – Self-Remembering. Remember your Self always and everywhere…. I was also hoping there will be more practices or “tools” but it turned out to be a shill to what was really a priority – that is making money, dressing pretty and socializing…

This is where it gets confusing. I guess the word “self-remebering” can mean different things. For me it means to be aware of myself. For some people it means something miraculously high, like on drugs. I don’t get it. For me it means to be here, now, to know what am I doing, where am I etc.
If I do it once a year it does not make much difference in my being. If I do it a few times a day, it brings light, creates memory throughout the day. It also brings understanding of myself which starts from seeing myself that can be uncomfortable. It takes energy and motivation, and I guess I don’t do it enough to tell much about it. But I value the idea that doing it more often (trying to be aware of oneself) is helpful, so once an hour an alarm or – whatever – does not seem that bad idea.

I was not around when people were calling themselves “it”. If I were I probably would do it too. It made sense from the point of view how often it gets uncomfortable and how often we say the word “I”, it becomes obvious that we talk about ourselves a lot. Same as trying to put one’s socks in unfamiliar order – first left, then right (or the opposed if this is habitual) I understand that it is extremely funny for the outsiders, but so what? I probably would come up with a solution not to make it too obvious and try to be inconspicuous.

In order to abandon the system one has to know what it is. RB used to say “the system works if you use it”. But no one knows the system. RB’s “system” of getting your money and everything ha can get – works for sure. But this is not the 4th Way system. What is the system? At least I could never find out in FOF what the system is. Now I hope I am getting somewhere.

252. sallymcnally - March 24, 2009

Regarding click, click, click and why I think it’s funny. Well, not to say I haven’t tried it. I tried all kinds of things while I was in the Fellowship to try and ‘be present’, including clock alarms, putting a pebble in my shoe, along the many, many exercises to be present that were given. I have to say in retrospect that none of those woke me up. It takes a lot more than a clicker to elevate someone into higher states. I laugh at myself a lot and I think looking at the absurdity of things we did in the Fellowship is not only funny but healthy and healing.

253. sallymcnally - March 24, 2009

One more thing to add to my #252: If you add one half hour of silence or meditation) am and one half hour of silence or meditation pm, along with noticing fluctuation of emotions during the day (usually comes at times of fear or anger about situations or people), and making different choices on how you handle these situations by noticing them first and then changing your behavior, I think you will get a lot further than hammering away day after day with clicking exercises. This is absurd to me and could be rightly called Gallows humor.

254. in2it - March 24, 2009

Homer (one of the conscience beings) Simpson at 249 must be having a meltdown because of all of this talk about clicking.

By the way, apparently Homer, despite being highly intelligent, did join a cult in at least one episode:

“Homer gets a brochure from a religious group at the airport and being highly gullible, he goes to their retreat. Because of Homer’s intelligence quotient they have more trouble brainwashing him than the rest of Springfield most of who are all sucked into joining this cult. When they finally succeed with Homer, he signs over the family house to the Leader. The Leader begins taking over various media outlets, making Mr. Burns envy him. Seeing an opportunity to pay even less in taxes, Mr. Burns tries to form his own cult, although he is unsuccessful. Homer and the family move to an agricultural compound and begin picking beans. When the children become just as brainwashed as Homer, Marge escapes and enlists the help of Lovejoy, Flanders, and Willie to kidnap her family. They are able to deprogram them and then Homer tries to show the cult that the Leader is a fraud. When he does, and life returns to normal.”

For more info:

http://www.tv.com/episode/1476/summary.html

255. Tatyana - March 24, 2009

There is an Eastern tale which speaks about a very rich magician who had a great many sheep. But at the same time this magician was very mean. He did not want to hire shepherds, nor did he want to erect a fence about the pasture where his sheep were grazing. The sheep consequently often wandered into the forest, fell into ravines, and so on, and above all they ran away, for they knew that the magician wanted their flesh and skins and this they did not like.
At last the magician found a remedy. He hypnotized his sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned, that on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it. Further the magician suggested to his sheep that they were not sheep at all; to some of them he suggested that they were lions, to others that they were eagles, to others that they were men, and to others that they were magicians.
And after this all his cares and worries about the sheep came to an end. They never ran away again but quietly awaited the time when the magician would require their flesh and skins.

G.I. Gurdjieff

256. innin - March 24, 2009

Hi all,
(havent posted since years – its Laszlo as innin)

You get what you are for – in or out fof doesnt matter. For me it was a spiritual experience as i was in for it and neither RB nor fof society couldnt distract me from it – actually they were help for me and I did like it very much.

I dont need to JUDGE BACK in time in order to feel good now with a very different life.

Things are not everlasting-identical-to-themselves. Self-remembering and RB and FoF were glorious parts of my life – the same way the arent now and i like that.

So whats “funny”? – Thats whats funny: to include/embrace everything and even to enjoy it.

Hey have you ever thought of RB as an utterly lonley man? A desperate? Ive got this yesterday – it was a surprise for me. Hey chill out. Its an option too.

Id like to share something inspiring – a report of direct experience of OneSelf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4PZL7wg_g4

ltya innin

257. Tatyana - March 25, 2009

“But it must be remembered in this connection that a ‘black magician’, whether good or evil, has at all events been at a school. He has learned something, has heard something, knows something. He is simply a ‘half-educated man’ who has either been turned out of a school or who has himself left a school having decided that he already knows enough, that he does not want to be in subordination any longer, and that he can work independently and even direct the work of others. All ‘work’ of this kind can produce only subjective results, that is to say, it can only increase deception and increase sleep instead of decreasing them. Nevertheless something can be learned form a ‘black magician’ although in the wrong way. He can sometimes by accident even tell the truth. That is why I say that there are many things worse than ‘black magic’. Such are various ‘occult’ and theosophical societies and groups. Not only have their teachers never been at a school but they have never even met anyone who has been near a school. Their work simply consists in aping. But imitation work of this kind gives a great deal of self-satisfaction. One man feels himself to be a ‘teacher’, others feel that they are ‘pupils’, and everyone is satisfied. No realization of one’s nothingness can be got here and if people affirm that they have it, it is all illusion and self-deception, if not plain deceit. On the contrary, instead of realizing their own nothingness the members of such circles acquire a realization of their own importance and a growth of false personality.”

G.I. Gurdjieff

258. fofblogmoderator - March 25, 2009

256 is newly moderated

259. X-ray - March 25, 2009

256. innin – March 24, 2009
“Id like to share something inspiring – a report of direct experience of OneSelf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4PZL7wg_g4

Unfuckingbelievable!
(sorry Bruce)

260. Panorea - March 25, 2009

The story with the clicker and the little girl asking her father about it, is real! I was there during the whole two moments! And it is hilarious of course.

There is the joke about it and there is the tragedy about it, since the little daughter is my daughter too and when the story popped up, a string of other tiny little anecdotes popped up. And it is tragic too because it reminded me of the lies we had to invent in order to make sense to other people. And the danger of a situation like this is that we started living in separate compartments. The one little box was our Fellowship life, the other box was the “life job”, our children box, our parents box, you name it.

The “intentional insincerity” Mr. Burton was advertising as a tool to be more connected with our essence is a basic f*c*i*g lie! (oh why don’t I just spell the word out here???). And it is serious stuff when you feel you need to hide your situation from the rest of the world. You suffer from serious psychological splits.

261. Panorea - March 25, 2009

inniin….

Don’t be so naive Sir or Madam!

Burton is a sick, lonely, perverse man but he has been pulling men and women down his little hole for years and years. He is not the one who needs to make sense. It is one’s life that needs to be re-gained.

He is a lost case.

262. Ill Never Tell - March 25, 2009

249. Ill Never Tell:

‘FoF might see that as feminine dominance, but:
Just because something is a wild and crazy idea and everybody’s doing it, does not mean YOU have to do it. Peer pressure is more like pier pressure: Just because everyone is taking a long walk down a short pier, does not mean you should.’

Hearing your mother’s voice scenario, as mentioned above in 68/249 (post number 11344), could be feminine dominance. However, I might add to that post and say: Going along with the crowd and succumbing to peer pressure can also be feminine dominance.

263. Ill Never Tell - March 25, 2009

251. Tatyana:

‘I was not around when people were calling themselves “it.”’

Regarding the ‘I’ exercise – not saying the word ‘I’:
This was mentioned a few times recently. Not everybody was substituting ‘it’ for ‘I,’ as in:
‘I want a cup of coffee.’
becomes
‘It wants a cup of coffee.’
and makes you appear bizarre to the people you are talking with and attracts attention to yourself. Some people made the (possibly greater) effort to rearrange the grammar of their sentences in this way, for example:
‘I want a cup of coffee.’
becomes
‘Please bring me a cup of coffee.’
That was a more invisible application of the exercise. It also places you in a somewhat more subordinate position in the sentence.

So, what you say T.: ‘I probably would come up with a solution not to make it too obvious and try to be inconspicuous.’ Was an option that could be pursued in many of the exercises that could aim for inconspicuousness. You are not doing an exercise, or the effort to self-remember, to impress anyone.

264. X-ray - March 25, 2009

261. Panorea – March 25, 2009
‘Burton is a sick, lonely, perverse man but he has been pulling men and women down his little hole for years and years’

Some people say his hole is not so little.

265. innin - March 25, 2009

x-ray /259

If you liked it theres another:

(Im not sure tomorrow Ill be able to publish a third one – I think its quite rare)

have fun

266. nigel harris price - March 25, 2009

For those of you (elena, ton, whalerider, Yesri Baba especially) here is my little booklet in draft:-

“THE YEARS BETWEEN”

My journey through English mental health institutions and services, to recovery and stability.

By Nigel Harris Price

(Dedicated to the work of the Crisis Resolution Team and the inspiration of Stephen Fry)

Chapters:-

Introduction

1) Lucid thought?

2) What you see, what you hear, who you feel you are.

3) “There can be only ONE” – the God thing.

4) Why your friends like it when you make them happy.

5) The booze factor.

5a) Bring back smoking in mental institutions.

6) The influence and inspiration of music, poetry and films.

7) The police approach.

8) Psychiatrists – what they really know and why they can only see from the outside.

9) Coming across the neo-Nazis in the hospitals.

10) Therapy among the clients – not ‘therapising’ by the hospital staff.

11) Mental health ‘clubs’.

12) The drugs don’t work – or do they?

13) The achievable aim of independent living.

14) Being practical – dealing with the states of bi-polar disorder.

Introduction

Someone I used to know commented that “Nigel is fine for the most part, but now and again ‘the cheese slips off his cracker’”. This person was the protagonist in implementing my first stay ‘under section’ (meaning ‘to be, or thought to be a danger to oneself or others’), in the local mental health institution and he stayed as an acquaintance for 14 years until I realised that he was using my reliance on him in my initial stages of recovery as a chance to take advantage of me. But this realisation was the key factor in coming to the decision to write about my experiences of coming to terms with my bi-polar affective disorder and managing to live as a relatively normal human being.

This little booklet is in no way an attempt at an autobiography – I feel no need to go back to my childhood or even the events that led up to a near-successful suicide attempt in California after a business failure. I have told those tales to a few people and some of them were on-hand at the time. It is just that people I know and those in the mental health profession thought that a true story about success in dealing with a serious mental illness and coming back to stability through the long process of recovery would prove inspiring for others who ‘fight with similar demons’. The road has been hard – 14 years from my first hospitalisation for bi-polar to becoming a professional adult education teacher in my chosen field of precious metals – but I find now I am through ‘the valley of the shadow of Death’ that I bear no grudges – ‘l’experience humaine’ and all that.

Rather than to proceed chronologically, I have found it useful to dwell on different aspects of mental health and the ‘care’ that goes with it as experienced by both myself and others I have come across – both patients/clients and mental health care professionals. Some things that I will write about are standard experiences and conditions in which most people find themselves whereas other things are intended as eye-openers, hopefully to close the rift between what patients/clients are unable to put across and the way that the structure of health care deals with things that it can only experience and witness from the outside, as it were.

1)Lucid thought?

When you are admitted to a health care institution, one of the first things the nurses and doctors do is draw up a review of your condition and particularly as to what constitutes your symptoms. Most people who are admitted are described in the review as ‘not experiencing lucid thought’. From my own history, I can say that the thoughts were lucid and what the health care professionals meant is that the thoughts were not practical and related to getting through on a day-to-day basis. It may not seem that thinking you are a cross between Henry V and Luke Skywalker is normal, but when you are born of warrior-nobility blood and are trying to battle with authorities and institutions that do not cater for anyone who ‘does not fit the mould’ and you are deriving excitement out of new learning experiences, then it is understandable why these thoughts occur.

2)What you see, what you hear, who you feel you are.

I suppose if there is anything that puts a bi-polar person off it is when their experiences are ‘awry’ and they seem to misinterpret things they see, hear and feel. The problem that the doctors are worried about are the ‘sensory anomalies’ that patients experience, and rightly so, since as, especially as in the case with schizophrenia, such anomalies range from merely off-putting to devastatingly evil-inducing. Personally, I have not heard voices, as schizophrenics do, and any visual anomalies have been explicable but there is the possibility of the ‘sufferer’ becoming unnerved by the experiences in the ‘highs’ and ‘lows’.

3)“There can be only ONE” – the God thing.

Bipolar ‘highs’ can be the source of illumination just as religious states are purported to be. Some religious passages talk of the ‘God-state’ and, to a certain extent, that is exactly what is experienced in a manic episode. Although one wishes to champion causes and fly in the face of petty authority, this is often interpreted by mental health professionals as ‘delusions of grandeur’ yet I often wonder whether these professionals want everyone to be in a ‘socially acceptable, quasi-normal’ state. The quote above, in quotation marks, from the film ‘Highlander’ quite adequately describes the process which goes into producing a mental health ‘high’. Many sufferers from bipolar affective disorder ‘whip themselves into a frenzy’ in stressful situations and feel that they are ‘fighting on the side of God’.

4)Why your friends like it when you make them happy.

Manic states are often infectious in a social environment. A bipolar person in such a situation can ‘whip up a frenzy’ of enjoyable moods in others and this can be exacerbated by the free-flow of alcohol. Often, such a ‘party’ can go on all night long with an upwardly spiralling ‘high’.

5)The booze factor

There are natural and synthetic drugs, both used as necessary or recreational mood- or state-altering drugs. As I am from Welsh stock, have green eyes and like a tipple of beer or cider, I feel an affinity for that best-of-the-bunch actor Richard Burton (originally Jenkins). Alcohol is, in essence, a depressant/suppressant, which functions as a damper for highs and a bottomless well for misery. I thank my lucky stars that I was saved from the sorry fate that sidelined George Best to astral realms.

5a)Bring back smoking in mental institutions.

Mental health authorities are ‘tearing their hair out’ in an attempt to come to terms with the ‘no-smoking’ ruling in NHS institutions. The conclusion that mental health professionals have come to is that tobacco contains substances that have the same calming effect that can be found in the synthetic drugs that are specifically prescribed for mental health disorders. Now, many institutions allow smoking in certain areas, in an effort to keep the patients/clients relatively happy.

6)The inspiration of music, poetry and films.

Most people, not necessarily those with mental health problems, derive inspiration from music, poetry and films. However, a person suffering from bipolar affective disorder will have ‘favourites’ from these art-forms to which they turn ‘when things get tough’. I remember one of my friends calling round to my house when I had been watching ‘Field of Dreams’ about 4-5 times. He had to call my employer because I was unable to go to work.

7)The police approach.

The police have ‘grown up’ a great deal since 1992, when I was first sectioned under the Mental Health Act, and my last sectioning in early-June of 2008. The police have had a problem with the treatment of arrestees under this Act and have had to consult with mental health professionals in order to find a reasonable solution for dealing with these arrestees. Let me insist, “POLICE CELLS ARE NOT A PLACE OF SAFETY!”

8)Psychiatrists – what they really know and why they can only see from the outside.

One of the problems with psychiatrists is that they do not have in-depth experience of the trauma-inducing states of their mental health patients. They see the symptoms ‘from the outside’ and feel that certain lengths of time spent in the ‘loony bin’ being drugged up will solve the problem. This only goes part of the way to helping a client recover and deal with the ‘outside world’.

9)Coming across the neo-Nazis in the hospitals.

I suppose it is reasonable, although naive, to believe that all staff in mental health institutions have the welfare of the patients/clients at heart. Although the situation has improved vastly in the 16 years in which I have been involved with them I must say that there are still staff who get a feeling of superiority and dominance by working with mental patients. Conversely, there are other staff who have been in my local institution for many years and are very reliable as a source of comfort and solving problems.

10)Therapy among the clients – not therapising by the hospital staff.

Many patients in mental health institutions are quite happy to vegetate in these places and not take the process of recovery into their own hands. The fact is that there are many things other than the Occupational Therapy sessions which people can do to help their recovery along. Talking with other patients about their symptoms and problems can help as can becoming diligent in the area of ‘housework’, which can include doing one’s own laundry and tidying one’s room on a regular basis.

11)Mental health ‘clubs’.

There are quite a few patients/clients in the mental health sector who never come off the ‘hospitalization/release/relapse’ cycle and never really recover enough to live a fruitful and enjoyable life. The fact is that they need to make an effort and come to terms with their lives and not be reliant on the “I’m mentally ill, so I do not need to do anything” syndrome. My first head nurse in the local institution said to me a long time ago “You ARE NOT YOUR MENTAL ILLNESS, Nigel. You are STILL AN INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEING”.

12)The drugs don’t work – or do they?

It is difficult for mental health professionals to know what should constitute a medication regime for a patient. There are typical and atypical drugs in use (typical being those that have been tested and have a ‘track record’ and atypical being those that have been tested only to a limited extent). The fact is that the professionals CANNOT ULTIMATELY PREDICT whether the medication will work as they wish and, as such, the regime is a fine balancing act (type of drug, dosage etc.). Also, one of the big problems is that a patient will stop taking the medication if the side-effects become unworkable for them.

13)The achievable aim of independent living.

Mental health patients NEED TO WANT TO RECOVER. It is not so much (as has been my experience) that you can will your own life but you have to take the opportunities that are presented to you to become more self-reliant and move out of the ‘permanent mental-health patient’ stigma. Is it worth it? The answer is that you cannot tell beforehand. There are many risks; the facts that you will have to have an adequate work life, social life and may need more rest than other people.

14)Being practical – dealing with the states of bipolar affective disorder.

It takes many years and, probably, many admissions to the mental hospital, to reach a state of self-understanding and the realisation that, although one has a serious mental illness, one can deal with things in life, even though it may take frequent care visits from Community Psychiatric Nurses. Sufferers may have to restructure their lives around what they can reasonably handle, since bipolar disorder is often brought on by stress, and make sure they involve themselves with people who provide a healing and positive environment.

267. Renald - March 25, 2009

Innin you old dog! I justabout fell off my chair. Is it really you? I`m so glad you are well, you have no idea. I can`t wait to contact Cake and the others to tell them the news. It`s like the 2nd coming! Holy shit!
Are you still in White Rock? Well, isn`t that a laugh! Wow!

268. Yesri Baba - March 25, 2009

266 Nigel

Thanks Nigel!

269. innin - March 26, 2009

renald 267

its been pleasure to take a shower of your joy. But I think Im anther Laszlo – i live in Budapest and my longest visit in US took three months. I was member of fof between ’97-07. By the way White Rock is a good idea. Ill certainly tell you when i go there.

270. Renald - March 26, 2009

Thanks Laszlo for the quick reply. Right, this Laszlo was in the fof for a good thirty years. He eventually moved to Oregon House and worked in the winery, where he kind of lost it. The last we heard he had been placed in some kind of home in White Rock, B.C. Canada. He had moved to Canada from Budapest, if I am correct, in the 1950`s Who knows, you may even be related!

Anyhow the joy is not lost. It was time I communicated with the others as well, so the joy wave spread out quickly.

Cheers!

271. X-ray - March 26, 2009

265. innin – March 25, 2009

A typical guru for typical idiots.

272. brucelevy - March 26, 2009

271. X-ray

Yup, you got it.

273. innin - March 26, 2009

x-ray, bruce /271-72

all i can say that there is more

for example this ultimate laughter of freedom at the end

beyond gurus and beyond guru-paranoia

try this:

have a nice day
in-in

274. Old Fish in the Sea - March 26, 2009

260 Panorea: “And it is serious stuff when you feel you need to hide your situation from the rest of the world. You suffer from serious psychological splits.”

I think that it is impossible to be in the Fellowship and not be seriously “split”. And the difficulty of reconciling our different personalities led to a silent shame. A shame so silent that we ourselves could not see it. A secret shame that we did not often face, but which had an affect on our self-esteem, our good judgment and our happiness. A shame that was covered by our pride in the Fellowship which was kept alive by our constant conversations about how great it was and how lucky we were.

The personality that went to work every day was ashamed to speak openly about the behavior of the teacher – his strange and hurtful sexual behavior, his misuse of resources, the law suits, the predictions, the “us vs. them”, the unfairness to those that spoke up, the constant greed and efforts to take advantage of “life” etc. It was very painful for me when an employee of mine starting sending nasty (but true) stories about Robert and the FOF to my boss. This forced me to acknowledge that a part of me was ashamed of being in the FOF.

And then we would go to Robert’s dinners where he would proclaim that we needed to spend more time with him and at the Galleria and at meetings. He would imply that good students did not give much to life. He even told a good friend of mine, a hard worker and major supported of the Fellowship that he “valued life too much”. I was told the same by ML when I encouraged valuing those outside of the Fellowship and stated that a certain kind of 2nd line work could be done with non-students.

The whole concept of the Inner Circle – the attitude that the students that pulled themselves into the cult mentality and made all hours of the day revolve around the FOF were doing better, reinforced our shame. Those of us that worked many hours supporting the FOF and our families became silently ashamed of not being more involved in the Fellowship.

This is not to say that no parts of us understood. We did understand, could acknowledge a bit and could speak about it convincingly. We could justify and make weird sense of it all. But I believe that subconsciously, the underneath layer of shame became stronger while we justified all the contradictions and over-laid the contradictions with pride and nice-sounding attitudes full of scale and relativity.

For those of us that were parents, there was yet another split – the split between the desire to be a good parent and giving parenting the time and energy required, and the pressures from within the Fellowship to limit family involvement and investment.

One part was ashamed that we were highly involved and another part ashamed that we were not involved enough. One part proud of the Fellowship and another part ashamed to be associated with it – all the while convincing ourselves that everything was as it should be.

And the only way to explain it all was to assume that those outside of it could not understand, and this, combined with all of the “anti-life” nonsense from Robert created a wall between us and them, and kept us from realizing our potential as human beings.

I believe the deep hidden shame is a part of everyone in the Fellowship and a cause for much of the depression, passivity and lack of involvement in life, and that this shame becomes a deciding force, keeping some people in. I believe the shame has sapped the self-confidence required to consider facing life without the FOF. Perhaps shame was even a part of our joining in the first place. Certainly, shame explains some aspects of Robert – his desire to keep the FOF in a cocoon, his sex exercises, and his focus on learning to shut out the I’s.

And there were parts of us that could look at all this from the outside. That could honestly face the contradictions. Meanwhile the shame, which was many layers below our intellect, grew stronger.

Shame tends to reinforce sins of “omission” and minimize sins of “commission”. It makes us passive with respect to taking responsibility for our own understanding. It makes us more susceptible to the attitudes of those around us.

275. nigel harris price - March 26, 2009

274 Old Fish in the Sea…..

I remember, almost all my time in the FOF, how ‘life people’ (and here I would include my parents) were really kind to me and helped in the development of the aims of ‘my life’s work’ (and I do not mean here 1st line work!). They knew my weaknesses and strengths, without needing a ‘system’ to describe how I was and were prepared to overlook discretions. There was no ‘waving-of-hands’ to photograph what they did not like and ‘rubbed their features up the wrong way’, as there was with members of the FOF.

There was one instance where a Venusian-Mercurial psychiatrist student was dining with REB, and, in response to my receiving the Papal Commission in September of 1987, said to Robert, “How wonderful of C-Influence to use B-Influence (the Roman Catholic Church) to fund the School!” (actually, I used the profit from the commission to pay off my tools and equipment debts).

There are so many instances where the features of Greed, Dominance and Tramp (which I would say REB is ‘blessed with’) were supported in the FOF…..Nigel.

276. Daisy-Jane - March 26, 2009

#275 – Old Fish

Yes indeed. I have been out for many years and still there is a shame and even fear in fully approaching this topic. I never spoke of my FOF experience with anyone. That is why for me this blog has been so helpful – thank you all for your participation. I have been following along for over a year now (including going back to start at page 1) and even when deciding a few days ago to ‘go live’ I have had a couple of sleepless nights trying to formulate my thoughts. Strange but true….

277. Walter J. Tanner - March 26, 2009

Tatyana,

I sense you are on the right track: What is the system? It is a resource for self-knowledge, you give over your interpretive faculty to a vocabulary and grammar that will arrange your thinking for you, give you a scaffolding for your observations.

Upon the Delphic Oracle were written three sayings: “Know Thyself” was the first. The second is “Moderation in All Things.” Including knowing oneself? What would be an excess of knowing oneself?

Perhaps clicking when you self-remember.

Or perhaps excess is relying too strongly on one system’s language. I think this is where Robert’s degeneracy actually helped us, for one can quickly find things in Robert’s interpretation of the Fourth Way that are quite incommensurate with what one discovers by “observing one’s self.” When you arrive at a contradiction you can migrate to another system, or begin the larger project of discovering why you are interested in totalizing psychological systems, and then you begin to interrogate that consciousness to find out where it comes from and what gives it power. Another Archon to pass by.

The third saying written at Delphi is very mysterious, but may give the final clue.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

278. WhaleRider - March 26, 2009

For anyone who missed this awesome clip from innin:

Note the guru guy’s name: Papaji. Get the Daddy reference?

When asked by neophyte to be shown God, guru guy says…”I’ll tell you a story about a young child”….which is a great hypnotic induction for age regression, masterfully excecuted, that much I give him credit for.

Then when the neophyte is put on the spot about seeing God and still doesn’t…the tension mounts…and then he’s asked again to “see God without doubt…(i.e. resistance from the critical mind), the questioner folds due to group pressure. The tension is broken and everyone has a good belly laugh as the neophyte is accepted into the fold gets a nice hug from big Daddy. How charming! This guy is a pro, meaning he gets paid to do what he does, through “donations”.

So where is the harm done? Everyone ought to see God everywhere they look instead of looking for ways to feed their egos. What’s the big deal?

There would be no harm done if questioner immediately left and lived the rest of his life with the perception that God is everywhere he sees.

But chances are, the neophyte became a follower and started hanging around…and the guru guy doesn’t mind, he’s getting old and can’t work much these days ’cause he’s sitting around a lot on pillows and putting on weight, er, I mean, being…and eventually he needs to be taken care of, because in India, they don’t have nursing homes…and everyone gets a little lonely sometimes…

279. elena - March 27, 2009

Still daylight but heavily clouded leaving strong white light to penetrate the darkness while spots of indigo and deep pink flash and allow for a strong chiaroscuro to embrace the city already cuddled by the imposing mountains.

It is the end of March: the rainy season in which heaven speaks loudly for a few minutes that barely turn to hours, then the Sun quickly dries its words on our shoulders.

Old Fish,

Nice! At last some light on the shame, without shame!
So good to look at it straight in the face!

Nigel, yes, thanks for sharing your reflections.

There’s no humour where people love only at their own jokes! Even humour is objective! Are you really an enemy? I thought my best enemy was my best friend! Pity words are taken literally when one is not enough of a poet! But the pain runs beneath in the multitude of other things that were left unaddressed because there are no logical answers. Sculpting is always painful but the artist loves its piece. Without the laugh the sculpture is cheap!

280. veronicapoe - March 27, 2009

274/Old Fish

Great post. Great, great post.

I read a book that helped me focus on and understand shame. The author’s name is Donald L. Nathanson and it’s called Shame and Pride: Affect, Sex and the Birth of the Self.

You can preview the book here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OvsB3NG-TN0C&dq

281. fofblogmoderator - March 27, 2009

276 is newly moderated

282. Old Fish in the Sea - March 27, 2009

280 veronicapoe:
I ordered the book. Thanks for the tip.

283. elena - March 27, 2009

Daisy Jane,

Welcome, it’s a pleasure to hear your voice after a year of sharing your silence!

284. X-ray - March 27, 2009

273. innin – March 26, 2009
‘for example this ultimate laughter of freedom at the end’

this ‘ultimate laughter at the end’ is nothing more than a sign of stupidity and weakness.

285. Ellen - March 27, 2009

274, Old Fish, Nice post, thanks for that.
276, Welcome Daisy Jane.
278, Whale Rider, Spot on. There is a huge difference between those who make a living from producing “spiritual experiences” in others and those who may actually help a person integrate and stabilize their own spiritual intimations in order to lead a fully independent (yet possibly) realized human existence. The difference between disempowerment and empowerment?

Currently I am deep into The Guru Papers. Thanks to all who have suggested it, and I join my voice in encouraging those who have not yet picked it up to do so. The authors submit many sacrosanct areas of human existence to a rigorously reasoned dialectic. And it should be so. That there may be areas of human existence that transcend the rational is clear, though such areas should nevertheless be entirely subject to rational examination. Otherwise, such experiences may reveal themselves to be just pre-rational, unrefutable pre-historic cave ca-ca.

I suspect that the authors too (as Westerners), may have areas of hidden assumptions. But I am not erudite enough to point them out. I am picking up the Guru Papers just after finishing a small out of print book entitled “Introduction to Vedanta” by Nagaraja Rao. Published in 1960, it is obviously out of date scientifically, yet the perennial philosophical wisdom of the East (specifically Indian Vedantin) is rigorously compared and contrasted to and with that of the West. The fundamental difference in the use of rationality and logic between the East and West is thoroughly examined – particularly in light of man’s fundamental spirituality in what the future may hold – for humanity. I’d recommend a read of that book, too, if you can find it.

A wise-acreing P.S.: I consider this time period of the late 20th and 21st century as one of intense cross-fertilization between East and West. Historically speaking, experiments like the Fellowship of Friends may finally be seen as just one of the many cults that arose when old systems of meaning broke down under new circumstances and newly integrated perennial truths had not yet found fertile common ground.

286. nigel harris price - March 27, 2009

285 Ellen

Nice P.S……I believe that, too…..Nigel. (i.e. ‘gap-traps’!)

287. Ellen - March 27, 2009

285, Edit: “The fundamental difference in the use of rationality and logic between the East and West is thoroughly examined – particularly in light of man’s fundamental spirituality and in what the future may hold – for humanity.”

288. Tatyana - March 27, 2009

277. Walter J. Tanner

“Upon the Delphic Oracle were written three sayings: “Know Thyself” was the first. The second is “Moderation in All Things.” Including knowing oneself? What would be an excess of knowing oneself?… Perhaps excess is relying too strongly on one system’s language.”

So, what are you saying? Trying to understand ideas described by Gurdjieff is an excess?

Your logic seems to be a little strange though. Where did you get an idea that moderation in all things has to include knowing oneself and being oneself? Can you be yourself in moderation? Sometime you, sometime not you?

It always surprises me how people state an idea as an absolute and completely understood Truth just because it is written somewhere! It is written in Bible, on the wall, in RB’s bathroom. So what if it is written?

If I remember correctly, in RB’s bathroom it is written “Know thyself” on one wall and “Be thyself” on the other. Does it make him an oracel? I never heard if “moderation in all things” is written anywhere in his bathroom though…

289. Jomo Piñata - March 27, 2009

and on the scalloped bowl of the sink, in marble inlay, appears the Third Delphic Inscription, “don’t pee in the sink.”

290. Kid Shelleen - March 27, 2009

“Everything in moderation, including moderation” — My friend Tony, the Oracle of Baltimore.

291. Kid Shelleen - March 27, 2009

Besides, all those Oracles were high as kites anyway.

A Robert saying that rings true through all the ages:

“Whatever the I’s, dear, I hope you straightened the hand-towel.”

and this one that I heard him say personally:

“Two outs, run on anything.”

292. Mick Danger - March 27, 2009

Q. What do you do to an elephant with 3 balls?
A. Walk the elephant & pitch to the rhino.

Apparently not peeing in the sink does not go without saying.

Ladies, it looks like you lose again. (The game is rigged)

293. elena - March 27, 2009

Old Fish,
The ability to acknowledge shame is what narcissistic sociopaths and the like are unable to reach. The rationalized justifications take the place of the emotion and act as what we use to call “buffers”. That, in the end, is what we are talking about when we talk about being brainwashed, indoctrinated. The overall doctrine justifies the lifestyle: abuses and lies are perceived as necessities and reasons.
If we look at the story of Adam and Eve, it would be possible to observe the parallel in which most of us, I believe, live life convinced of our “innocence” and until we take a full blown picture of our “darkness” we cannot conceive “reality” (wisdom) in which both light and darkness are included. It is then that one can “walk out into life” and becomes responsible for what one chooses.

One of the horrors of cults is that people are induced into crime still innocent and can walk down the steps of hell for a lifetime convinced that they are building heaven. That is, they can remain in the cult without ever perceiving their own dimension of reality or the community they belong to. They are unable to tackle the reality of their sexuality in which the tremendous insanity reveals the pathology. They remain in a stunted essence and it is essence what is used and abused by the cult without allowing the members to ever acknowledge the dark side of reality or themselves. They deny themselves the opportunity to work on them selves because they split internally and separate their sexuality from them selves and label it as the lower self, life, unconsciousness, hence disallowing the experience of shame, burying it in the deep layers of essence and innocence. This ignorance, this inability to struggle with themselves and the community they are a part of, makes evolution impossible and involution speedy.

If we take a look at the Fellowship inner circle including Robert, the fixation on an ideal world, mastered by an increasingly strong fixed formatory personality devoted to the horrors, reveals the immaturity of their projections, their essence stunted and crystallized in a fixed world that they have to reproduce over and over to believe that it is real, rather than an open and spontaneous response to life and its turmoil. These are adults who never grew up, who never acknowledged their inconsistencies or struggled with them.

Allowing for cults to live out their nightmare reveals that the society in which the cult progresses is as unclear about its reality as those inside the cult. It is a society in which abuse has also become the norm implicitly and doesn’t know how to deal with the explicit abuse practiced in cults. They are one, an expression of the other.

294. Kid Shelleen - March 27, 2009

The John Bradshaw book, “Healing the Shame That Binds You” was a great help to me.

295. nigel harris price - March 27, 2009

293 elena

The idea of “remorse of conscience” comes to mind, whereby a person looks on how they acted at various moments in their lives – with people, situations and towards themselves, with the view to correcting the fault by acting well in the present and future. I do not know who coined the phrase, but I, for one, would sincerely like to discuss the subject. Like you, Elena, I believe no-one in the FOF can extricate themselves from the ‘crime’ you described and still remain followers of REB – member, conscience and, therefore, leading to consciousness – it’s a contradiction in terms. The mear fact that the FOF was so willing to hush-up evidence in the law suits against them (I don’t know how many there were!) shows that there was ‘something fishy’ to be hidden. As Sir Walter Scott said – “Oh, what a tangeld web we weave, when first we practise to deceive”…..Nigel.

296. Walter J. Tanner - March 27, 2009

Hi Tatyana,

“Your logic seems to be a little strange though. Where did you get an idea that moderation in all things has to include knowing oneself and being oneself? Can you be yourself in moderation? Sometime you, sometime not you?”

Perhaps that most-common English translation obscures things a bit: the Delphic inscription “MAEDEN AGAN” more literally translates as “nothing too much.” Can you try to know yourself too much? Can you “be yourself” to excess? The lunacy of the FoF demonstrates plainly that this is so.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

297. Old Fish in the Sea - March 27, 2009

293 Elena:

Nice clear post.

I believe that shame is almost untouchable by the intellect. You can tell yourself all kinds of things but shame is not really affected by our thoughts or work I’s. Shame may be closer to what we sometimes call the pain body – a part that affects our perceptions and most importantly how we perceive our own possibilities.

When I feel ashamed, I become more susceptible to an attitude of inadequacy. It is a subtle fear that says at the cellular level that I might not be good enough and I better watch my step. This attitude holds me back and in my case keeps me passive. It does not consider possibilities for action that step beyond the attitudes and actions of those around me.

I suspect that shame for me is something that started very early in my childhood, possibly something that I was born with (like the concept of original sin) and possibly the result of perceived rejection as a baby. I think it started early because I remember the feeling at an early age. I believe that some of my inadequacies have fed the shame. I think it played into my magnetic center which developed partly as a way to become free and partly as a buffer to personal responsibility.

This original shame latches on to the attitudes of people around us and the people that we find ourselves admiring. Television ignites shame, religion ignites shame, and certainly the Fellowship contributes.

Presence and meditation may be a way out but when they get connected to the concept of becoming special, the benefit is erased. The Fellowship was all about becoming special and Robert furthered this attitude when he spoke. When presence is connected to becoming special, it sets up a morality that leads to shame. Spiritual success is a silly illusion which separates us from raw experience and interferes with accepting people as they are and life as it is. In short it diminishes love and replaces it with judgment. Even worse, when presence and evolution become intertwined with greed, unhealthy sexual relationships, illusions of grandeur, and separation from humanity, it not only becomes ineffective but contributes to shame.

I felt a release of shame when I joined and again when I left the Fellowship. Suddenly the world seemed open to possibilities. I think joining the Fellowship freed me from some of the shame that our society drills into us. There was hope – hope to be better, hope to be independent, and the FOFWay replaced some of the shame induced by Christianity. I believe leaving freed me from some of the shame that the FOF loads into our psyche.

For those of us that have recently left, this is an important time – a time when we are still somewhat free from the attitudes of our family and the way we were raised, and a time to grow free from the hierarchical attitudes of the Fellowship. This gives us an unusual opportunity (and I think it happens without trying) to take all of our experience (in and out) to form an independent personal concept of what it means to be a human.

Those that stay in loose this opportunity because the Fellowship creates attitudes of right and wrong that make independent assessment and growth very difficult if not impossible.

298. Panorea - March 27, 2009

“Μηδεν αγαν” since we want to go to the origin of things, means as Walter J. Tanner writes “nothing in excess, nothing too much”

Yesterday I was told by a friend who escaped the madness of the Fellowship that Robert’s recruiters were having days who were trying to gather as many as 100 male students to serve the sexual desires of Robert Burton.

I wonder what kind of keying he had for “nothing in excess, nothing too much” when he was having all those men satisfying his greed.

Can you fit this piece of information with the theater of consciousness he keeps on playing? I couldn’t do it any more.

299. Tatyana - March 27, 2009

296. Walter J. Tanner
So, you can be not too much yourself then.
And what about what “was written” in Search of the Miraculous? That one needs super-efforts and connecting to the large accumulator? Since it is written it must be also true, no?

300. peter mac - March 27, 2009

What matters it that all around
Danger and grief and darkness lie,
If but within our bosom’s bound
We hold a bright unsullied sky,
Warm with ten thousand mingled rays
Of suns that know no winter days?

EMILY BRONTË ……………. noticed recently how the bright spring days were cheering me ………..

301. fofblogmoderator - March 27, 2009

Sorry comments are closed for this entry

%d bloggers like this: