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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, part 61 January 1, 2009

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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. Wondering - January 1, 2009

Are these guys singing Beast Of Burton?

2. Jomo Piñata - January 1, 2009

SANTA FE, N.M. (AP) — An apocalyptic religious sect leader has been sentenced to 10 years in prison for sexual misconduct with teenage female followers:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2008/12/31/us/AP-Sect-Leader.html

3. Bares Reposting - January 1, 2009

61/2. Jomo Piñata:

Thanks for the update on that.
That story was subject on this blog earlier.
Below are some of the posts that took place.

– – – – – –

on April 24, 2008 at 3:19 pm
33/#45 somebody

Last night there was a documentary “Inside the cult” on the National Geographic. Very interesting. Doomsday cult leader Michael Travesser prophesied that the world would end October 31, 2007. The camera was allowed inside the cult for some reason, there were amazing interviews and stories about the followers and the dynamics of cult behavior.

I wished all students could see this documentary because it shows how FOF fits perfectly into the definition of a cult.

– Self-proclaimed higher being – son of God, or God makes people confused about his authority because how one can question the God?

– Voice of God (or Gods) sending special messages to the leader, or commands to do strange things (like sleeping with married women) which often goes against the moral code of the followers and make them sacrifice so much that it bonds them forever.

– donation and devotion all possessions, social security checks, income go to the “Queen”

– prediction of a doomsday and promising a better life after this life there is a very strong motivational force in the idea of doomsday just waiting around the corner, because it makes one hope that when everyone else will be fated to die one still can save oneself if one prays well, believes well or self-remembers well…

– alienating from the world and the families preaching every day that life is empty and goes nowhere makes the followers feel safe and cozy in the cult

– the cult leaders sleep with their followers. This is the way to control and overpower them.
They interviewed the follower who seems to be close to the leader – his secretary perhaps – he told the story about how the God made this horrible thing – he FORCED Michael to sleep with his wife. And when he became angry with Michael, Michael told him: “You can not be angry with me – it’s God’s idea. Go and talk to God if you are angry with Him!” Poor guy, he was standing with his head to the wall in pain, when Michael and his wife told their story in detail about this “forcing” which of coarse occurred repeatedly and with quite a few women. Bad God, Bad God!

It was also interesting to watch how the followers were not disappointed when the prediction did not come true. On the contrary they were dancing in the night and singing “We are free!”

It was said that failed predictions usually don’t make cult members leave the cult, but rather adjust their thinking…

– – – – – –

34/#206. somebody – May 6, 2008

***
Wow! Good news, one more cult leader is arrested…. Michael Travesser, whom I saw in the documentary ‘Inside the cult’ 2 weeks ago… Who is next???
Sex Charges for Leader of Doomsday Sect

Self-Described Messiah Arrested After State Removed Three Teens From N.M. Compound
By DAVID SCHOETZ

May 6, 2008—

A self-described Messiah was arrested on sex charges involving minors two weeks after state officials took three teenagers from his New Mexico compound amid allegations of sexual abuse, authorities in New Mexico confirmed to ABC News today.

“State police and criminal agents are interviewing Wayne Bent [AKA Michael Travesser] right now,” Peter Olsen told ABC News.

Olsen had few details beyond Bent’s initial arrest, which happened without incident sometime this morning at Strong City, Bent’s compound in New Mexico’s rural northeastern corner.

Chief Scott Julian of the Clayton Police Department confirmed that Bent was charged with three counts of criminal sexual contact with a minor and three counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor. He is being held at the Clayton-Union County Consolidated Detention Facility, Strong confirmed to ABC News.

Bent, who in his writings also goes by the name of Michael Travesser, is leader of a doomsday sect called Lord of Our Righteousness Church.

Three teens, a 16-year-old boy, a 16-year-old girl and a 13-year-old girl, were taken into custody by state officials during a three-day period starting April 22.

Romaine Serna, a spokeswoman for the state’s Children, Youth and Families Department, told ABC News last week that the state is looking into the best options for the children. Serna declined to comment on today’s arrest, citing a judge’s gag order in the case.

Child welfare officials were working with the district attorney in Union County, N.M. “We’re conducting a thorough assessment,” Serna said at the time. “We did receive information alleging inappropriate contact with minors on the compound.”

Serna would not say who provided her department with the tip, but said it came from a “very reliable source.”

By his own admission, sex with his followers is an aspect of Bent’s church. He wrote in a Sept. 11, 2007, Web site post that he had sex with three women, including his son’s wife, at God’s prompting. He also wrote about virgins visiting him in his bed but claims he declined their requests for sex.

Bent’s group is featured in the National Geographic program “Inside a Cult,” scheduled to air this week. In the program, he acknowledged lying naked with virgin followers and describes nakedness as “another symbol of our relationship to God.”

Prudence Welch spent 15 years as a member of Bent’s group. She fled in December 2005. She said that she did not believe Bent had sex with virgins but that he did exert mental abuse and he did take the wives of other men as his own. “Pretty much all marriages were somewhat on hold,” Welch told “Good Morning America” last week.

John Sayer, another former Bent follower, told The Associated Press that Bent “was supposed to sleep” with his two teen daughters. He took his family and left, but one of the girls returned on her own and is among the three teens taken into custody last week, he said.

The recent string of visits by authorities is not the first time that law enforcement has descended on Strong City. The FBI, state police, local law enforcement and social workers went to the compound in 2002 when rumors circulated that the group was planning a mass suicide. No suicides took place, no arrests were made and no children were taken into custody, according to state police and child protective services.

Bent broke from the Seven Day Adventist church in 1987 to form his Lord of Our Righteousness Church. On the group’s Web site, the 66-year-old described being anointed the Messiah by God in 2000, shortly after moving to the New Mexico property.

Bent, who wears a beard and, in some photographs, flowing robes, has not granted interviews but, along with his followers, has used his Web site to criticize efforts by authorities to investigate the sect.

In one post, he referred to the media’s “witches brew” in a posting alongside a video showing one of the teens as she is taken into custody.

“There was never any child molestation, or adult molestation by anyone, including myself,” he wrote in another post. “There has never been ’sex with minors’ or anything remotely approaching that, and I was never the initiator in any of the events.”

Bent identified the teens who were taken from the compound and provided what he claimed are writings from them that show their confusion about why the state would take them into custody. “She’s very clear about the direction she’s going in in her life,” a narrator said over video footage of one of the teens being taken away, “much clearer than many adults.”

The group claimed that the teenagers taken by the state have family members living among Bent’s followers and consent from parents who do not live on the compound.

Jeff Bent, identified as Bent’s son, appealed to New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson in a rambling letter in which he claimed to be a former police officer. “I am incensed at the hypocrisy of your world, that you can accuse us of the very crimes your cult is guilty of,” Bent wrote.

The group’s Web site features a slew of postings, both written and on video, by church members professing various doctrines tied to the church. An April 10, 2008, posting is titled “The Apocalypse Is Come,” and there are many references to an Oct. 31, 2007, doomsday. A recent post points to the crumbling American economy as evidence that the eternal end is near. “Never in earth’s history has the prophecy of final things come so clearly.”

The case has eerie echoes of last month’s police raid of a remote Texas ranch that is home to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, a polygamist sect. Texas cops took away more than 400 children because they believe the kids were sexually abused or in danger of being sexually abused.

Since the children were admitted to the state’s foster care system, Texas officials said about 60 percent of the girls under the age of 17 were either pregnant or already mothers, that many of the children had past evidence of broken bones and that writings in confiscated journals indicated some of the boys had also been sexually abused.

The sect’s leaders, who include imprisoned sect “prophet” Warren Jeffs, deny any sexual or physical abuse of their children.

The group broke away from the Mormon church when the church outlawed polygamy. But arranged marriages and pioneer-style, floor-length dresses remain staples of the community.

Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures

– – – – – –

35/#13. Associated Press – May 10, 2008

Not travesser, travesty:
A travesty, also known as a Burlesque prior to Burlesque Theatre becoming associated with striptease, is a form of musical parody in which a piece is re-arranged into a style very different from that for which it was originally known.
According to Wikipedia.

Way(ne) Bent (aka: Michael Travesser)
Strong City: Inside A Cult:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/inside/3401/Photos?#tab-Videos/05168_00
Doomsday cult leader Michael Travesser prophesied that the world would end October 31, 2007 — but what happened? Go inside Travesser’s cult to meet its leader, its followers and the dynamics that shape cult behavior.

Young girls speak about laying naked with a cult leader and self-proclaimed son of God, Michael Travesser.

Same play, different props, different people, different sexual/social dynamic, but same sad psycho/sociopathic behaviour.

– – – – – –

36/#213. somebody – May 30, 2008

I had an interesting reading today. I was curious about what happened to our “friend” Michael Travesser and googled his name to find some news. The first link that came out was a website of Prudence, his ex-member, who posted some of his letters to her.

What the film “Inside the Cult” does not show is that Michael has a personal e-mail correspondence with his followers, and he influences and manipulates them in a very similar way Robert Burton does (did) to us.

He has a habbit to call everything “little”
– I thought, “Oh, this poor little lamb, how she hurts, even now.”
– In all of your years here, I just loved your little heart.
– The problem is, however, that little Prudence is still right where she went.
– I have been thankful for your little Web site.
– Well, old friend, I truly understand your little heart.
– Your little quote under your picture says it all

etc….

He also expresses loads of negativity which makes one feel less than a peace of dirt but in a very calm and controlled tone. Just like Robert:

” I once visited a hospital for the insane and they viewed life in much the same way as you do now. Are you okay? Or do you feel like you are losing it? I sure hope that you are not going over the edge. Over the many years I have known you, you did not seem to be so mentally distracted, but I may have been wrong about that. Were you like this before, but I just didn\’t recognize it in you, or have you gone through a change? When you left your husband and went with that man in Wyoming did it unbalance you? Have you had difficulty knowing that your new baby is not with his natural father? Little Prudence, did this move on your part push you over the edge? ”

Or check out this interesting sentence:
“If I had known that you were urged to be converted back in the academy days, I would have discouraged the folks from it. It was never in me to urge you, or anyone to come and follow me, or to follow God. ” (Follow me = follow the god)

“Marrying God is like marrying fire. It has been that way for me.”

And this is his comment on the movie we saw:
“ It sure has helped our young people see what the world really does to distort things. Our young people here are naturally honest at heart, and the movie showed them that the world is not honest at heart. It gave them security to know that they live in a safe and secure environment where the truth is told. ”

This is another manipulation in the attempt to silence a victim: ”I know how hard it is to bear the hurting… I know that no talking can take the pain away.”

And finally – some soap if you are bored:

“Little Prudence, do you remember the \”midst of the week?\” Do you remember how sweet it was when you washed my feet and kissed me. I think that was one of the sweetest times in my life since it was so spontaneous and unplanned. Remember the candles you lit? We still have that candle stick in the church that you gave us and it still has the original candles on it that you lit. I remember you whenever I see those candles, and the little separate eighth one also. I remember what you said on that sweet tearful day. Little Prudence, was that all made up? Did you make it all up? I sure didn\’t think so. I saw that it was God moving on you for love of His Son. What happened little Prudence?”

– – – – – –

36/#226. WhaleRider – June 1, 2008

Somebody:
A cult is a cult. Imagine the pain that Michael Travesser’s son feels when he realizes that his father, who had sex with his newly married wife several times before he consummated his marriage, isn’t the second coming of Christ, either? The avoidance of that pain would make him an ardent, faithful follower, too, don’t you think, just like guess who…

4. elena - January 1, 2009

Crouching Tiger,

“The kind of awareness I’ve tried to indicate doesn’t belong to either mind, body or feelings- it’s outside them but has a kind of ready sympathy with all three”

Movement is not just the dance of the body but the spirit of the dance
Thinking is not just the mind’s activity but the wheel of law
Feeling is not just the language of love but the ladder of unity.

Sometimes I come to the movement
Sometimes the movement brings me to the self.
Sometimes I am in the thoughts,
Sometimes thoughts are the structure of laws.
Feelings disappear with unity,
They are the longing for unity
And like a road,
Disappear when you reach home.

It’s midnight. Happy New Year 2009

But no-where is the hand of the divine more present than in every piece of bread that I put in my mouth.
I long to eat with that consciousness and be grateful for each bite.

5. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

This has been posted before, but I thought it would do well for a New Year’s message to all………………………………..

INVICTUS
By
W E Henley

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeoning of chance
My head is bloody, but unbow’d.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

6. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

I telephoned my brother in Perth, Australia this morning to wish him and his family a Happy New Year. I discovered that his eldest son has just given up his latest course (I.T. – the other two he had tried were mining superintendent, to follow his dad, and construction). It seems obvious to others outside the immediate family that he is struggling with some kind of learning disorder (ADHD is my prognosis, since he has great difficulty in maintaining attention and will often ‘zoom off’ and do something different when he is in the middle of something). However, David, my brother, and his wife refuse to admit that there is anything wrong with Rowan and that, sooner or later, he will settle into something. The reason for posting this situation is that was it not sometimes the case in the FOF that, if a student was suffering personal difficulties (physical, mental or emotional) that others would ‘photograph’ them as ‘not valuing the Work’ or ‘not being in control of centers’. These comments were often made from a place of superiority and made the recipient feel that they were not coming up to the standard of ‘good/better/best student’. For me, I feel that the blog is helping posters come to terms with their attitudes/problems, especially about their stance now with regard to the FOF. Some posters seem to think that expressing negativity about situations is destructive, but I feel it is helpful to ‘lay one’s emotions on the line’ and hope that there are not (again, superior) posters who try to maintain a ‘nice blog air’…..Nigel.

7. Crouching Tiger - January 1, 2009

elena 4.

Very nice! Thank you.

Sharon 314.

Yes, it was very liberating for me too, to realize that it was possible (and desirable) to learn in the way, and at the speed that your body learns… Everything came very much from the mind before I discovered that – a tendency the fellowship did nothing to discourage. To me, the Work is much more now about being firmly rooted on the earth and looking up to heaven (without falling into that pothole just in front of you!). In the fellowship, it felt more like constantly pretending you were in heaven, looking down rather disdainfully on the earth and your own body.

Sorry to give the dog another airing…. but…! In the fellowship I learned to dislike the dog, kind of to disregard him and punish him if he didn’t understand what I wanted. To punish him for simply having his own needs.

Now, I feel more responsible towards him. I know if I don’t feed him in the morning, he won’t eat. If I don’t take him for a walk, no-one else will. If I want to be understood by him, I have to learn his language and understand what he needs – not just repeat my own wishes and let everything go to hell… This is part of my responsibility.

But he has to know I mean business, I have to be firm with him and give him a discipline. Do I think it’s a good thing if he runs off down the middle of the road and causes a car to swerve, or creates a problem with other people’s dogs in the park, while I’m whistling dixie? No, I don’t. That’s part of my responsibility to him, also.

Ultimately, now I do have much more feeling – a growing feeling – that me and the dog, we’re in it together.

8. Yesri Baba - January 1, 2009

Crouching Tiger 60 308

“You’re trying to lump everything into one bag”

Everything is already in one bag.

9. Craig Dockter - January 1, 2009

“By the command of the Indestructible Being, minutes, hours, days and nights, stand apart. By the command of the Immortal Brahman, months, years, seasons and solstices stand apart. He who knows this Indestructible Being is a liberated sage or Jivanmukta.

“Time rolls on. New becomes old and old becomes new again. Today is the most auspicious New Year’s Day. God has given you another chance this year to enable you to strive for your salvation. Today man is. Tomorrow he is not. Therefore avail yourself of this golden opportunity, struggle hard and reach the goal of life. Make the best use of every moment of this New Year. Unfold all latent faculties. Here is a chance to begin life anew, to grow and evolve and become a superhuman or a great dynamic Yogi.

“On this glorious New Year’s Day make a strong resolve to wipe away all the old worldly Vasanas or tendencies and bad impressions and to control the senses and the mind.

“Know the value of time. Time is most precious. Utilise every second profitably. Live every moment of your life for the realisation of your ideal and goal. Do not procrastinate. That “tomorrow” will never come. Now or never. Abandon idle gossiping. Kill egoism, laziness and inertia. Forget the past. A glorious and brilliant future is awaiting you.

“Equal vision is the touchstone of knowledge. Unselfishness is the touchstone of virtue. Brahmacharya is the touchstone of ethics. Oneness is the touchstone of Self-realisation. Humility is the touchstone of devotion. Therefore, be unselfish, humble and pure. Develop equal vision. Be in tune with the Infinite.

“Satyam (truth) is the seed. Ahimsa is the root. Meditation is the shower. Santi (peace) is the flower. Moksha (salvation) is the fruit. Therefore, speak the truth, practise Ahimsa and meditation. Cultivate Santi. You will attain the final emancipation or freedom from the trammels of births and deaths, and enjoy Eternal bliss.

“Be thou a spiritual warrior of Truth. Put on the armour of discrimination. Wear the shield of dispassion. Hold the flag of Dharma. Sing the song of Soham or Sivoham. March boldly with the band of Pranava-Om Om Om. Blow the conch of courage. Kill the enemies of doubt, ignorance, passion and egoism and enter the illimitable kingdom of blissful Brahman. Possess the imperishable wealth of Atma. Taste the divine immortal essence. Drink the nectar of Immortality.

“May this bright New Year’s Day and all the succeeding days of this year and all the future years also bring you all success, peace, prosperity and happiness. May you all tread the path of Truth and righteousness! May you enjoy the eternal bliss of the Absolute, leading a divine life, singing Lord’s name, sharing what you have with others, serving the poor and the sick with Atma Bhava and melting the mind in silent meditation in the Supreme Self.”

——————————————————————————–

Everything above is from a New Year’s Message by Swami Sivananda (founder of The Divine Life Society).

Bright New Year…

Craig Dockter
Director International Sales & Marketing
ELS/Thousand Trails
Office: Lake of the Springs–Oregon House, CA

10. Crouching Tiger - January 1, 2009

Yesri.

Well – unless you’re making a general philosophical statement – I guess you mean that any kind of 4th Way teaching is part of the ‘seeker-complex’ which you evidently distrust. And maybe you’re right to distrust it, at least for yourself.

But I do know what works for me, and at least I’ve experienced a version of the 4th Way which makes infinitely more sense than what RB and the fellowship had to offer. I don’t think you’re in a position to either judge, or dismiss that as just another corrupt fellowship offshoot.

Some on this Blog (like you) went towards Advaita upon leaving, others (like myself) wanted to explore the 4th Way further. Others took a hundred different paths. All are valid if taken sincerely and wholeheartedly.

11. aline - January 1, 2009

Happy new year 2009 for everyone here and thanks all for your contribution.
The best for each of you.

12. dragon - January 1, 2009

art,

“dragon, how about if we do both — dance AND take it seriously?”

Oh yes Art and now it is time to take it imperceptible more seriously again and I hope we will never stop the dance of life.

I mean that:

To dance and to breathe!

Live your life with joy without the restrictions of a mind controlling cult that cuts off your thoughts from your heart!

That is the way to loose a soul and not to create a soul!

Please enjoy:

13. Yesri Baba - January 1, 2009

Tiger

Look, I am not promoting one set of ideas over another. I am trying to point out what I consider a major falacy in our observations. That is , as this conversation began, that there is any kind of separation between the spirit and material or that there is a higher, lower or middle self. I think these divisions are key to the manipulation used by groups like the fellowship of friends and others.

I don’t see why you think I am engaging in an itellectual arguement or talking philosophy. I am using words, of course, but I mean exactly what I am saying.

14. elena - January 1, 2009

Yesri,

It’s good to hear you talking! I completely agree with you and with Crouching Tiger too.

Yes, the Fellowship and probably other cults use such concepts to convince people that they have to work lifetimes to become the so-called higher self. Nevertheless I also think that the way of the Fakir, the monk and the yogi are valid ways of realizing the divine in the human and that the way of life is just as valid to realize the human in the divine! I don’t know how else to say it! I’m not even too comfortable in the word divine but no matter what we call it, it actualizes the reality of unity.

Perhaps in the big picture what is valid about all the absurd cult life that we’re experiencing today is the acknowledgement of a spiritual reality that was banned and judged with the same fanatism with which religion banned sex and the enjoyment of life previous to that.

Didn’t communism ban religion and capitalism stand on it? Didn’t communism stand for the masses and capitalism for the individual? One for the social and the other for the private? Aren’t we perhaps meant to develop now a form in which both the individual and the community develop without hindering each other like in either one of the previous forms? That was at least my dream of a Conscious School were both individual and society worked in harmony.

A mature individual cannot hurt the community and a mature community cannot hurt the individual. There are both positive and negative aspects to capitalism and communism and they are directly related to the state of consciousness of man today.

Our own personal attitudes towards consciousness are determined by these “forms” proper of our time. The Fellowship Cult is a faithful replica of an individualist conception of development or awakening and led to idolatry and dictatorship or spiritual fascism if one can equate that. How can “The Chosen Ones” not be fascist in essence?

The communist model was equally dictatorial. The dictatorship of the idea of the community over the masses was equally restrictive to the individual as if the individual were not at the time mature enough to assume his own stand in relation to the community. Communism or community or a consciousness of the whole cannot be imposed by force. How we live in relation to our selves and the rest of mankind is an aspect of our state of development. All separations are illusory.

Being “identified” with one’s nationality, gender or academic credits, race, social status, spiritual status or marital status! are illusions that we seem to need to tread on heavily before we experience enough suffering to understand their futility. I am not free of all of these illusions and knowing is not enough to be free. Knowing is like the bull’s eye that stands in the distance, life itself is the arrow trying to actualize the understanding. In the meantime, I indulge with equal passion in the joy and the suffering of the process.

Thank you for participating!

15. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

14 elena

Wow! Clear vision!…..Whey, hey!…..Nigel.

16. brucelevy - January 1, 2009

Happy Gnu Year all.

17. The FOFion - January 1, 2009

Franklin Denies Connection to Fellowship of Friends

WASHINGTON, D.C. (ARK) — Benjamin Franklin answered questions for two hours Thursday at a Congressional hearing, as rumors are swirling in recent weeks that he’s connected to the doomsday cult known as the Fellowship of Friends.

Franklin denied all connections to the cult, but admitted some indirect and “casual” meetings.

“Robert Burton and I once met at a party at Versailles, but that’s fairly much the extent of it,” Franklin said. “But no, I have not — we have not — discussed any thing about the end of the world, or an ark for a new civilization, or anything related to spiritual salvation. Nor do I believe any of us have.”

One congressman asked Franklin if he “works with” Burton or with any of the followers in the cult, or if Leonardo Da Vinci may be connected to Burton in some way.

“Well, we do have some fun with the man at times,” Franklin conceded with a brief laugh, “but no, we don’t work with this organization per se. We do from time to time gently nudge some of the more naive followers to their senses.”

Franklin, who was a key diplomat to France during the American Revolution in the late 1700s, said a few thousand members have left the cult because of his persistent efforts, as well as the efforts of several other “envoys” and “colleagues.” Franklin would not give any names during the hearing, but many believe Walt Whitman, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Da Vinci, and several other representatives have similar such connections to FOF followers.

“Some things feel sad and time can feel lost,” Franklin said. “But these things are just meant to be. What you learn enters slyly through the back door, and you get what you need. We work to help people find God within their hearts, and not in us or in any other.”

18. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

17 FOFion

Best one yet!…..Nigel.

19. Yesri Baba - January 1, 2009

“What you learn enters slyly through the back door, and you get what you need.”

Hey, it’s the fellowship way.

20. Daily Cardiac - January 1, 2009

Ellen – 268:

“What was it that you valued about your own FoF experience while you were living it? Can you remember? Was it the ideas? Was it the Fourth Way knowledge? Was it the people and what you could give in that environment? Or was it something more indefinable, ineffable than that?”

The obvious reason is that you valued knowing yourself enough to stay, and you valued applying that knowledge in a Work environment.

You stayed because you were receiving what you came for. That’s how people are; they don’t stay unless something is being fed in them. When people get a divorce is it because their mate suddenly became a different person? Or because they found out something that hurt them? You can’t ignore the fact that sometimes people simply get restless and want a change.

Staying on course is difficult in general and in the FoF staying is made especially difficult in order to keep the school at the level of the fastest students.

I think the big lure for many ex members is that after a while they think they have all the knowledge and look around and say – why stay and pay all this money and put up with this or that? I have what I came for; what will prevent me from using what I learned “on the outside?” And believing one can take with one a well ordered Work environment designed for group work is the beginning of “filing for divorce.”

I don’t expect you will consider the possibility that you played a part in why the school ultimately did not work for you. But it is telling that neither you nor anyone else here, in the thousands of comments posted, has so much as pondered that as a possibility.

21. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

20 Daily Cardiac

“I don’t expect you will consider the possibility that you played a part in why the school ultimately did not work for you. But it is telling that neither you nor anyone else here, in the thousands of comments posted, has so much as pondered that as a possibility.”

As the French say, “merde de boeuf”…..Nigel.

22. Another Name - January 1, 2009

From DCI don’t expect you will consider the possibility that you played a part in why the school ultimately did not work for you. But it is telling that neither you nor anyone else here, in the thousands of comments posted, has so much as pondered that as a possibility.

Dear DC

When I read the above, I hear assumptions…there are ex students which it took 10 years to leave teh fellowship of friends. It took me 15 months of churning and sleepless night and pain.Its caused the worst grieving in my whole life and I had seveal losses in the past.
It has been such a big deal for many of my friends….Also staying has caused a lot of suffering, still, also now for students, dear DC.
If you have courage ask your fellow students and ex students they are around the corner of your house.

Please DC….ask questions instead of assuming.

It takes such a lot of energy and time and lying to yourself and others without questioning…./

Happy new year to all.

23. dick moron - January 1, 2009

20. Daily Cardiac:

I think the big lure for many ex members is that after a while they think they have all the knowledge and look around and say – why stay and pay all this money and put up with this or that? I have what I came for; what will prevent me from using what I learned “on the outside?” And believing one can take with one a well ordered Work environment designed for group work is the beginning of “filing for divorce.”
____________________
Have you considered that this may be accurate and true. You will never know or be able to verify what one takes from FOF experiences or what one finds when one leaves until you leave. Everything else is speculation on your part or blind faith in the judgement heaped on ex-members by your “teacher”.
Divorce is usually the best option for the victim in an abusive relationship.
You words here are as hollow as ever. I thought you had a New Year resolution to leave the blog. Obviously you are a know-it-all who has to get in the last word. So much for “keeing aim.” You are a sheep. Go on over to the Galleria and get sheared again. Bahhhhhh.

24. dick moron - January 1, 2009

20. Daily Cardiac

You are a sheep. GO on over to the Galleria and get SHAGGED again.
Bleeeeet!!

25. Crouching Tiger - January 1, 2009

DC.

“I don’t expect you will consider the possibility that you played a part in why the school ultimately did not work for you. But it is telling that neither you nor anyone else here, in the thousands of comments posted, has so much as pondered that as a possibility.”

You are fond of making these sweeping generalisations, but many posters have actually acknowledged their part in leaving… How could it be otherwise? The individual has to make a choice based on chemical reaction between his psychology and the organisation and its methods.

Of course, for you, the problem is always the individual, never the school. But I left – not because I felt I knew everything – but because I didn’t feel I could learn any more in the fellowship environment. After a number of experiences I began to doubt the sincerity of the ‘presiding intelligence’ in the fellowship. In fact, the stuff I was learning was causing a lot of damage internally, so it wasn’t just a case of ‘treading water’… So I left in order to find a place, inside and outside, where growth could continue. I’m pretty sure most people here feel the same.

One of the major problems in all discussions with you is that you don’t acknowledge that the school has any limits – not because there aren’t any, but because you can’t see them from where you are now. Hence : “The obvious reason is that you valued knowing yourself enough to stay, and you valued applying that knowledge in a Work environment.” By implication, people who leave don’t wish to know themselves any longer, as you’ve stated previously. It’s a huge and unjustifiable assumption, but one you can’t help making, all the time!

The Blog has value because it points out where the fellowship environment is flawed. This helps because it subtracts from the self-blame you would happily have everyone here take up as a burden once more!… Terminal guilt at leaving a supposedly ‘conscious school’.

Yesri, all terminology and words can be manipulated for evil ends. It ultimately depends on the sincerity of the individual and how he understands what he’s received: ‘Spirit’ and ‘matter’ only sound separate as words….

26. dick moron - January 1, 2009

24, Dully Cardiac

Staying on course is difficult in general and in the FoF staying is made especially difficult in order to keep the school at the level of the dumbest students.

27. Daily Cardiac - January 1, 2009

Crouching Tiger – 60-286:

“DC – any particular reason you’re back?”

O ye of little faith! I can’t be back because I did not leave yet. But I will be leaving.

Regarding your #7 – Don’t you think it’s a stretch to blame the FoF for how you treated you dog while in? It shows the tendency in people to devalue anything remotely possible about an organization they have left.

It was Robert who used to suggest to people to have pets so they could practice external consideration and responsibility with the idea it would stimulate the same for their future children and human friends.

28. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

20 Daily Cardiac (an explanation of my post 21)

O.K. DC, so I was blunt, but here is why. I don’t think anyone enters the FOF with a completely positive attitude about it. For me, two things were nagging (and continued to nag) me about joining. One was that the teaching payments would be too high (that proved to be true, since I left the FOF $30,000 in debt) and the other was that I would have to do without my career in precious metals (this proved to be a dual-edged sword, since I did continue with it in California, after having to forego it in the London Center, where I made my living out of gardening and handymanning for two years to save the money necessary to get to the USA). However, the ‘crunch’ came in a psychotic suicide attempt in June 1989 and I came back to the UK and had other things to deal with (‘esoteric bereavement’ and recovery, family arguments and problems with maintaining employment posts). Don’t you dare tell any ex-student that there is some kind of ‘cut-and-dry’ explanation that goes on either in the mind of the leaving student or their ‘play’. You may have noticed that many posters above have addressed your (past the New Year cut-off point) post in 61/20. Be prepared for a ‘barrage’ of intelligent posts from ex-members to ‘cut down’ your formatory ‘tree’.

“When I am weak, then am I strong” (Paul)…..Nigel.

29. dick moron - January 1, 2009

27. DC

DC: O ye of little faith!
_____________________

Oh, you are Jesus now.

———————
DC: It was Robert who used to suggest to people to have pets so they could practice external consideration and responsibility with the idea it would stimulate the same for their future children and human friends.
________________________
As I recall, Bob basically assigned specific prissy little pedigree dog breeds to people to have as pets. Just like he assigned everything else in his little fiefdom of control.

30. Daily Cardiac - January 1, 2009

Another Name – 22:

“Dear DC

When I read the above (#20), I hear assumptions…there are ex students which it took 10 years to leave the fellowship of friends. It took me 15 months of churning and sleepless night and pain.Its caused the worst grieving in my whole life and I had seveal losses in the past.
It has been such a big deal for many of my friends….Also staying has caused a lot of suffering, still, also now for students, dear DC.
If you have courage ask your fellow students and ex students they are around the corner of your house.

Please DC….ask questions instead of assuming.

It takes such a lot of energy and time and lying to yourself and others without questioning….”

Then why don’t people talk about those things on the Blog.

People only talk about why they left. Why not more about why they stayed so long? Does it really take so long to leave a destructive cult led by a sociopath? Some it took 30 years. Some posters here never left on their own, they had to be asked to leave.

Why would anyone experience the following about leaving a destructive cult – “15 months of churning and sleepless nights and pain. Its caused the worst grieving in my whole life” ?

It doesn’t add up.

31. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

30 Daily Cardiac

“…..having ears, but do not hear.” (Jesus, the Christ).

32. dick moron - January 1, 2009

30. DC
Does it really take so long to leave a destructive cult led by a sociopath?
_____________________
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
_____________________
DC: It doesn’t add up.
_____________________

This isn’t mathematics, you robot. Grow up.

33. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

32 dick moron

Your’e neither a ‘dick’ nor a moron…..Nigel.

34. Daily Cardiac - January 1, 2009

Crouching Tiger – 25:

“One of the major problems in all discussions with you is that you don’t acknowledge that the school has any limits – not because there aren’t any, but because you can’t see them from where you are now. Hence : “The obvious reason is that you valued knowing yourself enough to stay, and you valued applying that knowledge in a Work environment.” By implication, people who leave don’t wish to know themselves any longer, as you’ve stated previously. It’s a huge and unjustifiable assumption, but one you can’t help making, all the time!”

You are the one making assumptions/implications. I simply said I thought Ellen (and others) stayed because they were getting what they came for. People don’t support things they are not fed by; it simply goes against human nature.

You added/assumed this part – “By implication, people who leave don’t wish to know themselves any longer.”

This is entirely your implication. Why do you put words into my mouth which you then criticize me for?

CT – “One of the major problems in all discussions with you is that you don’t acknowledge that the school has any limits – not because there aren’t any, but because you can’t see them from where you are now.”

I do see the limitations of the school. Any human endeavor has limitations as human beings are limited by design. I also see it as the best chance for me, and about 1700 others, to escape the fate of a mechanical existence.

Why can’t you see that I am doing nothing different than the ex members here – simply stating beliefs based on my experiences?

Obviously everyone is not going to be right about this issue at the end of the day. I’m not claiming to be right; I’m only chronicling my beliefs.

I think you would agree that everyone who comments here believes, on some level, the correctness of their beliefs.This simple statement should not be too hard for you to comprehend.

35. Wondering - January 1, 2009

From DC on 12/27 in reply to “An older student”

“Thank you for the message. The timing is interesting as the beginning of the New Year was my own target date to end my time on the blog.

I agree with much of what you said. Whether my involvement here is being driven by my lower self; possibly only Influence C knows for sure. I had an aim which, as I said, is drawing to a close.”

Bye-bye

36. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

35 Wondering

This would be fun if it were not so serious…..Nigel.

37. Crouching Tiger - January 1, 2009

DC.

1. “This is entirely your implication. Why do you put words into my mouth which you then criticize me for?”

Because you’ve said many times before that you believe people leave because they stop valuing presence. That’s in the background here too.

Sure people stay when they get what they need. They also leave when their needs change or advance in some way, and the food they were getting no longer seems nutritious.

2. “I do see the limitations of the school. Any human endeavor has limitations as human beings are limited by design. I also see it as the best chance for me, and about 1700 others, to escape the fate of a mechanical existence.”

Fair enough – so what do you think they are?

3. As far the dog goes…. We all respond to the influences in our environment. I’m pointing out that I was a lot more unforgiving to ‘myself’ while in the fellowship. My experience since then has shown me just how unforgiving I was. So naturally, I deduce that the fellowship environment played at least some part in that ‘result’. Many other posters have also attested the feelings of self-loathing or self-blame they experienced while they were ‘in’.

4. It’s important to draw some distinction between beliefs, and hard facts or concrete experiences. You habitually try to draw facts and experiences about the fellowship into the circle of ‘beliefs’… in order to say, “well, both our subjective opinions cancel each other out”. The recent debate about whether RB had any meaningful connection to the 4th Way – through Horn or by himself – is one instance.

BTW, the sarcasm of your last paragraph is an eloquent statement of [your] character under pressure.

38. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

37 Crouching Tiger

Maybe DC is GH’s ‘doppelganger?…..Nigel.

39. lauralupa - January 1, 2009

“People don’t support things they are not fed by; it simply goes against human nature.”DC

it’s hard to acknowledge that one may have to redefine oneself as a member of a cult, instead of a a spiritual worker, or a student in an esoteric shool, and epecially renounce the idea of being one of the chosen ones. Such a fall in self importance.

A cult. Just one small destructive cult among many.
Or a precious and unique Spiritual School.

DC, what’s so hard to understand about how difficult it is to change one’s perspective so radically?

a case in point

the following is from “”The Body of Christ”
Descent from Benign Bible Study to Destructive Cult “, you can check it out the rest on the article on the web.

“The entire spiritual worldview of “The Body of Christ” had been slowly devolving into a destructive environment where infant deaths could occur, and everyone would turn a blind eye. This devolution/mutation can be traced in the development of three deadly trends that indicate the group was already beginning to gyrate out of control.

First, Roland Robidoux had initially encouraged members of the group to “go to the library, check your concordances, and Bible dictionaries and see if I am right” (conversation with former member), when he made a declaration. This began to slowly change and eventually went by the wayside. Questioning the leadership now was considered rebellious and disobedient to the “word of God” through his appointed leaders. Roland had essentially created an environment where he was perceived to have a direct “pipeline” to God with no actual accountability. This is always a very deadly combination.

Second, the group began to make a radical separation between the physical and the spiritual. Everything was spiritualized, from backed up septic systems, to why a chicken died, to it being a cloudy day outside. However, this spiritualization became deadly in the case of Samuel Robidoux, the infant who was starved to death. Group member, Michelle Mingo, received a “revelation from God” that Karen Robidoux (mother of Samuel) had spiritual issues that God wanted to work out in Karen’s life. This involved Karen performing various acts of “penance” that revolved around the feeding of her baby, Samuel. If she performed well God would “relent his judgement,” according to Michelle. This obviously had great implications for the infant Samuel.

Karen was to stop feeding her ten-month-old son solid food and to begin breast-feeding him only. She was also to trust God for Samuel’s well-being, and not focus on his physical suffering. A journal entry dated January 16, 1999 states “Physical signs (are)not important – walk in faith. Physical signs can be a lie.” Consequently, when infant Samuel was dying, Roland Robidoux, one of the Elders, stated that while “Sam shows signs of discomfort, …it is not as the physical looks. Prayers should not be for Sam to be healed but for God’s purposes to be fulfilled” April 17, 1999. In fact, in that same journal entry it is noted that God “doesn’t care about Samuel at this point. We are being afflicted, but it is to teach us life.” The entire group turns a blind eye to the suffering of this infant and “spiritualizes” his pain. Mark Daneau comments, “It’s not going to be over until God says it’s over… What we see with our eyes is not truth.” (April 17, 1999)

Third, journal entries of group members over the preceding two years indicate that personal “revelations” from God began to take precedence over the Bible as God’s written revelation. Eventually, the Bible became a meaningless book and the group’s subjective experiences, dreams and visions became the true locus of authority and guidance. This created an environment where there were no checks and balances. Such environments are always very dangerous for any person. Anything can happen… and then be justified as God’s will.
Eventually, this reliance upon “revelations” was carried to such an extreme that a member of “The Body of Christ” wrote of Georgette Robidoux (Roland’s Wife):

“If anyone here said something, no matter how ridiculous, she (Georgette) would follow because she believes that everyone here has the Spirit of God. She would not question it. If a leading someone said was not the word of the Lord or seemed like it wasn’t, she has to and does believe that God is behind it. It is not part of her job to understand it, it is to trust in God and obey.” August 14, 1999

All leadings had to be strictly obeyed because they were from God, even if they were wrong. The reason is that God is ultimately behind everything, thus, even a false leading, like not feeding Samuel, needs to be obeyed because God is the Author. Obviously, in a context where it does not matter if a “leading” is from God or not, this is not a fit environment for any human being. The subjective ramblings of the most deranged member can become the norm, and, in the Name of God, people can commit the most heinous crimes against their own kind. For where there are no checks and balances, anything goes.

The tragedy here is that this environment slowly became entirely shifting sand. Years earlier, none of the people in “The Body of Christ” would ever have dreamed of participating in the death of an infant and then interpreting it as God’s will. They would have been horrified at the prospect. However, what was normal for the group five years ago is not what is normal today. And what is normal today will not be normal a few years down the road if the group continues to exist. It most likely will be something far worse. Of such is the nature of destructive cults.
Georges Santayana stated, “Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.” Tragically, those words have been played out again and again in human history. “The Body of Christ” in Attleboro, Massachusetts is only one small chapter in a long, sad book. Destructive cults have existed for millennia and will continue to as long as there are those who claim a direct pipeline to God with no accountability. The final price is always disillusionment, shattered lives and it can be, ultimately, death.”

Were these people supporting things they were fed by?
Doesn’t what they did seem to go against human nature?

40. dick moron - January 1, 2009

30. DC
People only talk about why they left. Why not more about why they stayed so long?
_________________
OK, I’ll play along……
People stay for various reasons. My case: I joined FOF at a young age, just turned 19. That period of a person’s life is usually one of growing and maturing mentally, emotionally and sometimes, spiritually. It can be a period of great discovery of oneself and the world. I had many questions and a rather wild undisciplined life. The FOF at that time provided a framework for my growth and the discipline I was lacking. I became more of a responsible adult and was more focused mentally and emotionally. I was probably ready to move on in my life after 3 or 4 years. About the period of time a young person might attend college or maybe serve in the military. In other words, the FOF provided a decent system to focus my youthful energy and get past naivety as well. I should have moved on. But the insidious cultural and spiritual brainwashing had slowly taken effect.
The fear and doom of predictions of destruction. The dogma of losing all hope if one left. The indoctrination of being one of the lucky chosen ones and on and on. We know the tune. The door of opportunity slams shut and one becomes a cult devotee, the opposite of what one imagines oneself to be. One has been hypnotized.
The process of awakening from this hypnosis can take a long time. There are many years of behaving like a sheep, convincing oneself that one is achieving presence and evolving into a higher being. Life in FOF becomes a convenient lie. It is easier than progressing. It becomes comfortable. Ultimately conscience is the only power that can free one from the trance.
Escaping from the fellowship of Friends reminds me of the film, “The Shawshank Redemption”. The main character patiently carries out his escape plan over a period of time and emerges into freedom through the sewer line of the prison. And he emerges as he was before he entered the prison–a true and just man. Did his prison experience make him wiser? Yes. Would he be better off remaining in the prison for life. Maybe if he was a weak, defeated coward.

41. lauralupa - January 1, 2009

Addendum:

In July, 2002 Jacques Robidoux was convicted of First Degree Murder. He is now serving a life sentence without any possibility of parole. Karen Robidoux was charged with Second Degree Murder. She was convicted in January, 2004 of Assault and Battery and sentenced to time served. Michelle Mingo was charged with Accessory Before the Fact. She pled guilty in February, 2004 and was sentenced to time served.

42. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

“Life only avails, not the having lived. Power ceases in the instant of repose; it resides in the moment of transition from a past to a new state; in the shooting of the gulf; in the darting to an aim. This one fact the world hates, that the soul BECOMES; for that forever degrades the past; turns all riches to poverty, all reputation to a shame; confounds the saint with the rogue; shoves Jesus and Judas equally aside. Why then do we prate of self-reliance? INASMUCH AS THE SOUL. IS PRESENT, THERE WILL BE POWER NOT CONFIDENT BUT AGENT. To talk of reliance, is a poor external way of speaking. Speak rather of that which relies, because it works and is. Who has more soul than I masters me, though he should not raise his finger. Round him I must revolve by the gravitation of spirits; who has less, I rule with like facility. We fancy it rhetoric when we speak of eminent virtue. WE DO NOT YET SEE THAT VIRTUE IS HEIGHT, and that a man or a company of men PLASTIC AND PERMEABLE TO PRINCIPLES, by the law of nature must overpower and ride all cities, nations, kings, rich men, poets, who are not.”

Ralph Waldo Emerson – “Self-Reliance” from ‘Essays’.

43. lauralupa - January 1, 2009

let’s see if this adds up

“three deadly trends”:

1- “R. had essentially created an environment where he was perceived to have a direct “pipeline” to God with no actual accountability.”

check

2- “the group began to make a radical separation between the physical and the spiritual”

check

3- “an environment where there were no checks and balances… this environment slowly became entirely shifting sand”

check

I count three strikes

44. lauralupa - January 1, 2009

… and I’m out!

45. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

44 lauralupa

Out with the Gods, by the number of your post…..Nigel.

46. lauralupa - January 1, 2009

Dear Nigel and all, I almost forgot,
Blessings, peace and joy in the new year!
and also
Amore, salud, dinero, y tiempo para gustarle
best wishes to Mother Earth and her children

see ya on the dance floor!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YNEkZ7bvZw8

47. dick moron - January 1, 2009

Daily Cardiac:

“I agree with much of what you said. Whether my involvement here is being driven by my lower self; possibly only Influence C knows for sure. I had an aim which, as I said, is drawing to a close.”

ALERT!!!!
C Influence has just informed me through the shock of a very special car license plate that you, the student known on the blog as Daily Cardiac, are indeed driven by your lower self. In fact, you are a walking breathing lower self sheep. Your monthly donations are thereby doubled and you must wash pots at the Galleria every night for the rest of your lower self existence. You are also on your 1st 1/2 lifetime.

Happy New Year!

48. nigel harris price - January 1, 2009

On a more serious note…..

I ‘flipped back’ to the very start of this blog-site (the sketchbook) and found some pretty stark postings. The ones that ‘struck a note’ were the descriptions about REB’s sexual depravity and, more to the point (since I emailed Ford Greene on Wednesday to find out where he stood with any motions towards the FOF – no reply yet), that legal dealings against the FOF (or counter-suits) would be expensive and may leave everyone, except the FOF and REB, bankrupt.

So, it remains to us ex-member posters to continue ‘blasting down the walls of Jericho’. “Let us continue with the work we are in”…Nigel.

49. Daily Cardiac - January 2, 2009

Lauralupa – 39:

“Were these people supporting things they were fed by?
Doesn’t what they did seem to go against human nature?”

These events did not happen in the FoF and nothing similar to that has ever happened in the FoF. Does that not enter into your equation?

50. nigel harris price - January 2, 2009

49 Daily Cardiac

With apologies to an old adage – “Similarity breeds contempt”…Nigel.

51. Yesri Baba - January 2, 2009

25 CT

True. I don’t even mind if those divisions are used as rhetorical devices to communicate how things sometimes seem. It just irks me when people veer off the map headed to Retardoville.

52. Yesri Baba - January 2, 2009

39 lauralupa

Yeah, but that is a cult and DC is in a real esoteric school led by a real conscious being and real angels.
In that cult people were deluded in thinking God plugged up the sewer and killed the chickens.
In DC’s real school Gods really did do that and just to prove it they made someone miss ten lay-ups in a row and he was a pretty good basketball player.

I wish you could understand- it’s difernt.

53. elena - January 2, 2009

49. Daily Cardiac – January 2, 2009
Lauralupa – 39:

“Were these people supporting things they were fed by?
Doesn’t what they did seem to go against human nature?”

These events did not happen in the FoF and nothing similar to that has ever happened in the FoF. Does that not enter into your equation?

You fucking liar. In the Fellowship young men get raped systematically with the help and support of the members and most like you think it doesn’t equate because you’ve become as blind as the rest of the lunatics in cults.

Old people have no protection no matter how long they’ve been inside.

Adults don’t have a life because they sold it do Robert Burton and the sickness of the Fellowship and you sick mother fuckers, you didn’t kill Dorothy because I took her out of that rat hole where they were drugging her so badly that Janet C. got scared and took her to my house where she told me to call her when she died.

You are all sick mother fuckers and you’ll go to jail and pay for it sooner than later.

54. Yesri Baba - January 2, 2009

52 Yesri

” It just irks me when people veer off the map headed to Retardoville.”

You probably meant: “It irks me when people veer off the map and head towards Retardoville.”

Fuck you. I meant exactly what I wrote.

(thanks CT for suggesting I save that middle finger for myself.)

55. Susan Zannos - January 2, 2009

Hello Ellen and all–and the very best of the New Year to you. (How can Yesri be on January 2nd already? Has he risen? Is he out of time now?)

About experiences I had in the Fellowship that I thought at the time were something higher than other experiences, and which for that reason convinced me that membership in the FOF cult was something special:

Chief among these experiences were different states. I don’t have the knowledge of physiology, biochemistry, or brain functions to speak about states with any precision, and maybe no one else does either, although certainly these fields are being explored extensively in our time. But I do know for sure that sundry practices we used in the Fellowship could produce definite changes in states–primarily dividing attention and sundry devices (many of them incredibly silly; remember the clickers?) to prolong the dividing of attention.

While we’re on the subject of the incredibly silly stuff we talked about with straight and solumn faces, how about the food diagram(s) of Ouspensky. Good grief. I mention this only because of the numerical designation of “higher hydrogens” which I associate with Ellen’s analogy to being in love. Whatever that is, that we called sex energy, it was certainly a most delightful condition to be in and was very frequently stimulated by Fellowship events and gatherings.

(oops! disruption. more later I suspect)

56. elena - January 2, 2009

NO MORE DAILY CARDIAC, PLEASE STOP LYING. YOU SICK MOTHER FUCKER PIMP CRIMINAL SONOFABITCH. YOU FUCKING WHORES AND PIMPS STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYINGSTOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, STOP LYING, SICK MOTHER FUCKERS STOP LYING, WHO DO YOU THINK WE ARE AND WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE MENTALLY RETARDED PUTTING UP WITH THIS SHIT WITH A KING OF HEARTS ACT IN WHICH YOU DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.

57. dick moron - January 2, 2009

56. elena
Whoa…..
Yes Daily Cardiac claimed he will stop blogging as of January 1.
Is he a liar? Probably. Is he a deluded douche nozzle? Indubitably.

58. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 2, 2009

53. elena:

‘In the Fellowship young men get raped systematically with the help and support of the members and most like you think it doesn’t equate because you’ve become as blind as the rest of the lunatics in cults.’

Don’t you know, Elena, now any person who might be having any kind of sexual contact/experience with the Teacher is first given verbal and written notice of such along with a disclaimer of any responsibility (on the part of the Fellowship of Friends and/or participants in the act(s)) and the person is asked to waive all rights of redress, verbally and in writing, should something happen that they didn’t like. This especially happens for neophytes. That is preemptive of any legal action later in time.

So, in that sense, it is not rape anymore, I suppose. Pimping is another story. (Lesser charge and harder to prove.)

* * * * * *

55. Susan Zannos:

‘Chief among these experiences were different states. I don’t have the knowledge of physiology, biochemistry, or brain functions to speak about states with any precision, and maybe no one else does either, although certainly these fields are being explored extensively in our time.’

There is now specific scientific evidence that there is a region in human brains where god realization takes place. When this area is stimulated by physical, or other means, people have god realization experiences. It is repeatable in a single person and can be duplicated in other people. Human brains, it appears, are designed and evolved for god realization. Now, what do the words ‘god realization’ mean? That’s another story.

solumn s/b solemn

Lovely to have your postings here. Happy New Year.

59. Susan Zannos - January 2, 2009

I was just getting warmed to the topic, suggested by Ellen (at least that was how I took her posting), of why I valued the Fellowship enough to stay a member for 30 years.

I went up to Oregon House on the Thanksgiving weekend. It was the first time I had been there since I left the Fellowship two years ago, and it turns out to have been a useful thing to do in that it rearranged the interior world in the direction of what feels like slightly more sanity. I’m assuming here that sanity is largely free of obsessive hatreds and judgment.

Nothing much happened. I got there late on an overcast cold afternoon, saw a few people in the store and talked briefly with some of them, both former students and current students. Then I had an early dinner at Salim’s and again had a conversation or two. That was it. Not much happened, but that very small experience erased the categories I was carrying around, protected by high metal fences topped by razor wire, between students and former students. At the same time I’ve gradually stopped feeling the debilitating self loathing and regret for the time I spent as a Fellowship member.

So that brings me back to why I stayed in the Fellowship so long. I mentioned before the states and volatile energies that were so pleasant to experience–addictively so, and like any addict I feared
leaving the Fellowship would cut me off from the supply. And to some extent it has since the highs were intensified by the group experience. This is really interesting stuff–not only are these states physiological, but they are obviously catching. You get into a high and look around and make eye contact with others who are also high, and you know it. Cool. But not, I’m quite sure, of any spiritual significance.

At any rate, these experiences with states allowed me to believe that I had what we were pleased to call “verifications,” that every time I got high I was accumulating a little piece of soul. Gee, it’s embarassing to write something like that flat out, but it’s true. And that leads directly on to the elitist/special/chosen business–you know, the one where the gods planned my evolution, selected me to join them, wrote the play of my life beginning with my grandparents, or all the way back to the guy who eventually speared the pooping rhino. This is really nasty, pernicious stuff–which is what is eliciting the wiseacring–the fact that I very much liked that notion, liked it well enough to swallow all the poisonous and addled fantasy thinking that went with it. So I’d go to meetings and listen to people elaborate on the whole wackadoodle mythology, and divide my attention, which would bring on the high, and I’d see others were also high, and I’d consider that a verification, and so obviously my soul was getting enlarged, which indicated that the gods had clearly chosen me for their own…

So there was that, and it was certainly a good motivator, and I’m fairly sure that there are many addicts who spend as much on their drug of choice as I spent on mine. And I don’t mind if current members want to continue paying for their hits, and if the Daily Cardiac blogger wants to enthuse about how valuable it is to him.

Thirty years is a long stretch of anyone’s lifetime, and there were other things, maybe for another time. (I guess I’m out of time, too, since my postings are dated January 2nd–but it’s really still January 1st and the first day of a brand new year.)

60. peter - January 2, 2009

Elena 56
Calm down and let Daily Cardiac say what he wants to say.

It’s ok, he is just a cult-member.
And he is expressing cult-members talk.
What else to expect?

– Wisdom?

– Real knowledge?

– Solid being?

If he had it he would not be in a silly little cult.

The disillusionment has not started for him.
He still believes all the fairy tails spread
by a dirty old man with young boys on his mind.

Justice is being performed.
Daily Cardiac is being punished.
Not by me or you or the police,
but by himself.
Think about it, he is a member of
a doomsday cult.

The fellowship of friend
aka
the fellowship of fools
aka
the fellatio of fools.

(BTW Elena i like your mail and think
you have a lot of strength and
little fear)

61. nigel harris price - January 2, 2009

55 + 59 Susan Zannos

Try ‘googling’ DOPAMINE. Stressful situations in everyday life can bring on GODSTATES in bipolar sufferers who do not take their regular medications…..Nigel

P.S. Anyone want a copy of my booklet ‘The Year Between’, that gives some explanation of this? Leave a mailing address at my email address…..aprhys@nigelprice.net…..Nigel.

62. Daily Cardiac - January 2, 2009

Elena

I’m curious to know what’s the end game for you with regards to the FoF. It’s obvious you have taken your cause to another level from most others here on the blog. Do you have an exit strategy?

I’m speaking mainly if nothing significant happens in the next two or three years and the FoF continues on as a viable organization.

Have you thought about it? If the membership numbers stabilize (which seems to be happening, as one report on the blog pointed to a net decrease of about 50 or so in membership in the last 6 months) and there are no successful legal prosecutions, the petition doesn’t bear fruit, etc; How will that impact your life? Is there a point where you will put the FoF experience behind you and concentrate on Elena’s life?

It doesn’t seem to me that a person can pour this much energy into a part of their past and into an organization they no longer belong to and still have time to develop interests and relationships (a life really) aside from the FoF.

You have made it clear that you think the FoF is a destructive cult. I find it to be vastly different than that and I have stated my position here as well. I’ll be off the blog soon; mainly because I’ve said what I wanted to say and what I felt needed to be said. But I doubt that I write one tenth of the words that you write and my time here puts a major drain on the rest of my life in terms of doing things I enjoy doing, or need to be doing.

It doesn’t seem prudent to me for someone to put so much energy into trying to destroy something one has little or no control over at the expense of building something up, growing something (one’s own life) that one has the final control over.

Do you ever consider that just being different from the things you see in the world that you don’t like is enough? Isn’t that what Ghandi said and did – if you want to change the world then BE the change. If you want to stamp out falsehood, then be truth. Nothing else is needed. Nothing else works better or is more effective.

If you don’t like something show the world a better model by being that model. You can only destroy something in a few ways; one way, the most common way, is through violence. The higher way is by being the opposite of that which you feel is harmful.

If everyone assumed that attitude the world would have to be better, and people would make it better because they would be contributing to harmony instead of discord. Isn’t it better to find something you approve of and put your energy into promoting that rather than giving your best energy to trying to destroy something that may very well be out of your power to prevent?

“Cults” have been around as long as man. No one will ever eradicate them because it’s in the DNA of man to form clubs, secret societies, clans. The people who form and join what you call cults are products of ordinary life; they are in all walks of life and as one “cult” disappears another will surely spring up, like blades of grass.

You are a prolific writer; why not write a book on cults? That would be a more constructive way to channel your energies. You could council others who have left a cult. If cults interest you there are many of them and many victims of them who probably would appreciate your help.

Why all the attention on one minuscule organization that has not produced one single individual convicted of a felony while a member out of a total of 17,000 members spread over 39 years?

What is your end game? Have you considered the possibility that the play of the FoF may not end as you desire it to end? Do you have an exit strategy?

63. dick moron - January 2, 2009

62. D.C.
I’ll be off the blog soon; mainly because I’ve said what I wanted to say and what I felt needed to be said.
——–
Goodbye for the last time, I hope. Go back to only preaching to members of your minuscule organization of non-felons. I am sure they will love to hear what you have to say. Maybe you can publish a book to compliment Jihad Haven’s classic. I wish you the best of luck–you will need it.
If you have a little spare time, I suggest you watch the film by Darren Aronofsky, called ” Pi, Faith in Chaos.” I think you will like it.

64. Yesri Baba - January 2, 2009

“I’m curious to know what’s the end game for you with regards to the FoF”

No you aren’t curious. You just want to goad her after that seemingly angry post. Why? Because you are a smug, nasty, retarded little prick.

65. nicholas bishop - January 2, 2009

64. Yesri

I think your’re right. There’s an attitude there that really gives off an unpleasant stink.

Susan Z.

A pretty accurate description of fellowship experience as I recall it. It’s still a little strange to me how that addiction to such a bizarre cocktail of sex and emotional energy came to mean ‘higher state’ – or worse, pass for a more complete sense of self….

66. Ellen - January 2, 2009

#20, DC
“I don’t expect you will consider the possibility that you played a part in why the school ultimately did not work for you.”

??? But of course I do, it just depends on who I think “me” is. Who do you mean as “you” ? Some picture your conceptual mind may have of my “lower self” ? Sorry, I no longer buy that package.

Though I clearly understand that my mind can create all kind of obstacles to experiencing the clarity of pure presence, I no longer believe it to be evil. I no longer hold it at a distance as something “other”. Rather I acknowledge a deeper wellspring source of pure living, loving, illuminated energy – as mine and every sentient being’s birthright – capable of burtsing through all conceptual packages. I center my love and attention there.

So as to my departure from the Fellowship, I answer to Influence C and Influence C alone. And spontaneous conscious influence has by no means deserted me, but rather increased in its bounty with grace and riches. Your petty esoterically pedestrian categories entrap you not me.

67. Ellen - January 2, 2009

Jomo, 273 or something, page 60

“Witness now how Jomo and Daily Cardiac cannot finally meet, as they speak from different levels: “

Sorry if my comment seemed unequivocal. Actually, the comment about your dialog with DC was an aside, that I had edited out but finally reincluded. Originally I had said something like,

“Witness now how Jomo and Daily Cardiac cannot finally meet, as they speak from different levels – so long as they stay on their respective levels:

I perceive you have the capability to roam while DC does not.

68. lauralupa - January 2, 2009

Susan 59

“… So I’d go to meetings and listen to people elaborate on the whole wackadoodle mythology, and divide my attention, which would bring on the high, and I’d see others were also high, and I’d consider that a verification, and so obviously my soul was getting enlarged, which indicated that the gods had clearly chosen me for their own…”

I believe your analysis accurately describes what most members experience and one of the main psychological processes that keep them in. “High” states can be very pleasant and addictive, but as you mentioned, one of the greatest blunders we all made was to mistake them for something spiritually significant. For example, I have effortlessly experienced similar or higher states, very pleasant and expansive, after smoking a joint, where I feel all buzzing with sex energy and loving and aware and in the present. Now, I know DC and other members would not agree (it’s a hard notion to be swallowed even by non-members), but my own experiences have led me to believe that there is no essential qualitative difference between getting high through a group experience, sex, drugs, meditation, breathing techniques, binaural beats, whatever, you name it. As WYLTK states, it’s all basically a matter of finding ways of temporarily altering one’s brain biochemistry, which is wired in such a way that with the right stimulation we can all get way up there. It’s far from an elitist experience, but quite democratic, in fact.

So while all humans (and even animals, it seems) love getting high, some humans are very good at helping or manipulating others into getting those highs by providing the correct techniques, settings and circumstances for such states to occur. In this sense, a guru is not too dissimilar from a charismatic leader (think of all the good German ladies having peak sexual experiences during Hitler’s public speeches), a shaman, an expert bodyworker, a good dj, an experienced sex worker, revivalist preacher etc. Lots of people make a living by tweaking other people’s energies. Is any of this stuff particularly spiritual? Not necessarily.

Sometimes those peak moments can help to trigger a deeper and lasting process of individual transformation and integration, what I would call a spiritual awakening. But “High” states do not necessarily lead to lasting awareness, increased perceptivity and spiritual maturity. In fact, they generally risk to become an end in itself, feeding the experiencer’s ego and leading to further self delusion and attachment. Even in yoga and buddhist practice one hears about the risk of getting addicted to the highs of meditation. But the worst case scenario is when someone, a skilled and ill-intentioned manipulator like Burton, purposefully uses those highs to create dependence and implant false beliefs in his followers. It’s a highly dangerous technique, because it works!

PS remember the lovely lady who experienced a really high state while having a stroke? just in case you missed it…

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

69. nigel harris price - January 2, 2009

67 lauralupa

I have been thinking a little today about ‘highs’, presence and, particularly, the role of the pineal gland. As I posted to Susan, above, dopamine floods in the brain are the cause of ‘highs’. I somewhat postulated to myself that, maybe, the pineal gland, if it is ‘the seat of the soul’ is the receiver of these states and grows in maturity (as I said, only a theory!). Presence (and the excercises to produce it) are not limited to the FOF, but can simply be more abundantly produced by seperating from the ‘clouds of unnecessary thought’ (imagination, in 4th way terminology) and there are many excercises to produce presence (I would presume yoga and breathing excercises, to name but two). I myself have a way of producing ‘highs through presence’ by doing something I call ‘following the Highway Code’. It involves roaming about town, being aware of ‘sidewalk thresholds’ as well as colours, numbers and names on buildings, signposts and vehicles. I think this is a very interesting area to explore on the blog, since it devastates the FOF myth of ‘chosen ones’. Look forward to hearing from you all…..Nigel.

70. nigel harris price - January 2, 2009

Elena and others interested……………..

I found a site called justanswers.com who are a group of lawyers you can contact online for a very reasonable fee to get all sorts of legal information. Here is the reply……………..

Good morning Aprhys

OK, let’s have a look at this.

The one thing that you can do an awful lot of is to ask awkward & embarrassing questions of our Mr Burton and his merry men. Carefully constructed, these can escalate to a point where suddenly all sorts of people are starting to take an interest in ‘today’s question going for a Burton’.

I don’t know if you remember all the fuss about ‘The Moonisa’ and their leader, Sun Myung Moon. It occurs to me that a little bit of research on your part should uncover many of the people who spearheaded the original attack on Moon. They may be willing to give you their ‘templates’ to enable you to snipe at Burton in the same way as they mounted their attack on Moon.

Individual actions can be brought against Mr B & the Brotherhood alleging extortion, false imprisonment, mental anguish & stress etc. The difficulty would be that if they have no assets in this country (UK), you would either have to litigate in the US or enforce any judgement obtained in the UK Courts, in America.

Then there is the other side of the coin which I, originally, thought was your intention – the question of defamation. If you can build up a ‘fighting fund’ in order to finance the defence of an action which he was compelled to bring as a result of your claims you would attract ENORMOUS PUBLICITY.

I hope that this answers your question and in that event, please click the ‘Accept’ button. If there are any points which require clarification I will be happy to continue the dialogue.

Feedback is helpful as it enables visitors to the site to assess the value of the advice available.

Best wishes,

Mike.

71. nigel harris price - January 2, 2009

Sorry…..should be justanswer.com…..Nigel.

72. Ellen - January 2, 2009

Nigel, Lauralupa, Susan Z,
Now, this is an interesting and perceptive thread.
(I’m getting high just thinking about it!) 😉

LL: “Sometimes those peak moments can help to trigger a deeper and lasting process of individual transformation and integration, what I would call a spiritual awakening. But “High” states do not necessarily lead to lasting awareness, increased perceptivity and spiritual maturity. In fact, they generally risk to become an end in itself, feeding the experiencer’s ego and leading to further self delusion and attachment.” Yes! Absolutely right. (IMO)

When I think about the Fellowship – and it is very individual because people did have a wide range of experiences – so I have to speak quite personally, it was possible to experience a wide variety of spiritual highs. But those highs were interpreted within a conceptual framework that imprisoned rather than liberated. Wow, current member, this is for you, wake up!

Is it possible now to consider those “experiences” in their own right without the conceptual trappings? Imagine, remember, the feeling of expansion, of connectedness, of a temporary loss of self-centeredness and claim it as who you really are. Surrender your little self to it. Forget the 44 angels. Forget the predictions. Forget all the concepts about how special you are to be able to experience this. Damn it! This is your birthright, just take it all the way. Stop listening to other ignorant people and follow your inner light.

Happy New Year!

P.S. Nigel, I love the Highway Code. What do you see?

73. lauralupa - January 2, 2009

DC
I see, math is not your forte either… too bad, it shouldn’t be so hard to put two and two together

“In the entire history of man, no one has ever been brainwashed and realized, or believed, that he had been brainwashed. Those who have been brainwashed will usually passionately defend their manipulators, claiming they have simply been “shown the light” … or have been transformed in miraculous ways.”

more on
The Battle For Your Mind – Persuasion & Brainwashing Techniques Being Used On The Public Today, by Dick Sutphen at

http://www.trans4mind.com/spiritual/brainwashing.htm

74. lauralupa - January 2, 2009

from an article by John M. Knapp at
http://www.the-guru-looked-good.blogspot.com/

“Not every organization that critics label a cult started out to abuse its members. But without forethought, any organization can become cultic. Look at the problems the Catholic Church faces.

So here are a few tips for cult leaders. Maybe, just maybe, they can dodge the cult label.

Be Transparent

– discuss policies, procedures & scandals openly
– publicize open complaint procedures
– report public scandals promptly to members, law officials & public media
– allow free information flow & fully disclose “secrets,” especially those that might affect potential members’ choice to join

– fully disclose the group’s political & legislative involvement
– fully disclose finances, particularly international finances, with third-party audits
– create a member-driven task force to set reasonable fees for retreats & “courses”
– dialogue openly with laity, the press & the public

Be Accountable

– publish – and adhere to – a set of ethics
– publish – and adhere to – all fees & donation policies
– oversee clergy & other agents with governing boards
– if any group agent acts unethically or illegally, take full responsibility

Advocate Freedom

– allow open questioning of the leader’s beliefs & practices
– Create a mechanism for modifying beliefs & practices
– create an elective or accountable structure of representation (as in most churches)
– promote freedom of speech within the group, without reprisals for contrary opinions
– promote academic freedom for clergy & scholars
– allow access to files/records held on members & public individuals
– advocate freedom to explore our spirituality without shunning or other repercussions
– avoid use of shame or guilt to control members

Provide Member Protections

– institute safeguards against members devoting damaging amounts of time, money & emotional resources to the group

Value Respect for Non-Members

– foster a systemic respect for other spiritual traditions & non-members
– foster a systemic respect for the rule of law, rather than the belief the ends justify the means
– foster a systemic respect for members’ families, whether they are members or not
– foster a systemic practice of charity & support to the less fortunate
– encourage members to live or socialize with non-group members

Provide Informed Consent

– fully disclose negative side-effects of group’s mind-altering or medical techniques
– undertake real efforts to address & heal side-effects
– accept financial responsibility for members suffering side-effects

Imagine a cult that acted with this kind of integrity.
That’s a spiritual organization I could be proud of.”

Once again, please check where appropriate.
So, just how cultic is the cult you are involved in?
you do the math!

75. Jomo Piñata - January 2, 2009

58/WYLTK re: “waivers”

Fortunately courts can disregard waivers where they violate public policy.

76. elena - January 2, 2009

Daily Cardiac, Susan Z and all

This is just the beginning and you’re a liar, you don’t have a thousand members today. Everything you do and say has that magnitude. Members continue to pour out each day.

I invested seventeen years wasting my life in the Fellowship and am happy to invest another seventeen making up for it so that others don’t fall in the same trap so welcome to the ride. I don’t happen to be one of those that invests half of their life in a sick brothel like yours then steps out and says “Oh dear, I have to go and rebuild the life these sickest harmed so badly and not say anything so that they can harm hundred others” No, I’ve already disturbed a great deal of the Fellowship’s stability together with others here and will not be happy until it is seriously stopped. What makes you think that if I only accomplish that in this lifetime I will not consider it a life having been worth living? You just don’t know what you’re dealing with but you better get used to it.

For how long will you continue to be in denial? You and all the other out who think sanity is letting the Fellowship continue without taking serious action against it?

Thanks Peter, Dick Moron and Nigel. Obviously many members who spent over twenty years in it have not perceived the “Cult” condition of the Fellowship in its full extent. There are children of ex-members considering joining the Fellowship and all that reveals is that the parents have not had a clear enough stand against their participation to fully convey to their children the extent of the danger. The nightmare of the Fellowship continues to haunt them because they will not pour full light in their own participation. The children are trying to redeem them and the Fellowship but will obviously just fall in the same disgusting trap.

It might be very hard for the five hundred members of the Greater Fellowship to assume responsibility for the “criminality” in which we all participated in the Fellowship but the consistency with which you are willing to disregard your participation and the profound damages to people’s lives makes you an extension of the Fellowship and no greater Fellowship at all. Your condonement of what continues to go on inside is exactly as harmful as when you were inside.

Realizing fully one’s blindness and neglect is an aspect of recovering one’s self. I do not understand how people can state that they realize fully the degree to which they were fooled, used and abused and yet will not even sign the petition.

Hundreds of you know seriously criminal aspects of the Fellowship that you are still hiding. Whatever you are hiding will accompany you to your grave and you will never be free of it for as long as you live. Women will continue to give up their children and members will continue to separate from their families. Young men will continue to carry for the rest of their lives the fact that a whole community of people watched and induced them into a situation in which they were raped and nobody did anything about it even long after it was known.

The little we already know on this blog is enough for any judge in any court to listen with concern and take whatever actions are legally possible. The absolute power of Churches against its members needs to be checked and modified and you could help accomplish that not only in your country but also in all countries.

No one is so mentally retarded to not understand that the problems we face go beyond the margins of legalities. Newspapers understand it; courts understand it and people in general do so too. Why don’t members understand it? That is the question. Why are ex-members still supporting the Fellowship? Why can’t you take care of your dark side and deal with it so that others don’t continue to become victims of the Fellowship because you neglected to do so? We are all responsible for having supported the Fellowship for too long and we are all responsible for putting an end to it.
What makes you think that you are one of the chosen ones that don’t have to respond?

My voice might be a little too loud for your taste. I am not asking you to support me; this is not about me. Let me deal with my despair, I am not asking you to solve it for me. I am asking you to help yourself and assume responsibility for your participation and help others not fall in the same trap.

We’ve been hearing Daily Cardiac lie to us each day just like the Fellowship did and most don’t even read the blog because it is too blunt. Avoiding the bluntness of getting raped by a whole community, being treasoned by many into giving up your self and all its aspects so that they can get a so called collective high, will not take the bluntness of the situation out of our lives.

I much respect people like Susan Z. and others here, but we are far from agreeing on what sanity is.

I much respect people like Susan Z. and others here, but we are far from agreeing on what sanity is. Sanity is not watching people being abused unmoved no matter how much you think that you are no longer ashamed of your participation. If such violence moves you to inaction then you are still under the effect of that violence. If closing our eyes to how the same thing happens to others is called sanity, I beg to remain the most insane person you’ve ever met.

All we can be grateful for is that the Fellowship is not as insane as other cults that actually killed people willingly. The Fellowship lets people die with its neglect and there is a very little difference in that. It only rapes, exploits and alienates people from their self willingly. You can help stop these things.

77. Yesri Baba - January 2, 2009

58 wyltk

How creepy is that!?

What could someone be thinking in the space of time between signing a waiver to have sex with a groady old guy and the time your pecker pierced his poop hole?

78. Ellen - January 2, 2009

58, 76,
Yes, and in order to officially become a center director now, a candidate must agree to sign a document saying that they will fully support the Sequence. Don’t know the exact wording…

79. Daily Cardiac - January 2, 2009

Lauralupa – 72:

Humanity is inherently brainwashed; those who see this look for schools.

80. art - January 2, 2009

dc: “Cults” have been around as long as man. No one will ever eradicate them because it’s in the DNA of man to form clubs, secret societies, clans. The people who form and join what you call cults are products of ordinary life; they are in all walks of life and as one “cult” disappears another will surely spring up, like blades of grass.”

——-

Hmm. Yes, and “political parties,” such as the Nazis, have been around as long as man. No one will ever eradicate them because it’s in the DNA of man to form clubs, secret societies, clans, and criminal enterprises. The people who form and join what you call political parties — such as the Nazis — are products of ordinary life; they are in all walks of life and as one political party disappears another will surely spring up, like blades of grass, or like the Nazis.

So we should accept political parties, like the Nazis, and cults, like the fellowship of friends, because they “have been around as long as man.” Hmm. I see.

And crime has also been around for as long as man, and as one criminal disappears, another will surely spring up. What bizarre logic and bullshit you continue to put forth. Are you done yet? Or did you mean you would quit a few pages from now. Oh…. another shill will “spring up like blades of grass” when you finally do leave.

81. lauralupa - January 2, 2009

DC 78
I see you are learning at least one thing in the FoF: the art of the pompous thought-terminating one-liner.

82. art - January 2, 2009

I think he has learned something else. he has finally admitted that the fof is a cult. he’s just trying to re-define what a cult is. “cults are products of ordinary life.”

his thought-terminating one liner is an example of orwell’s “double speak.” Cults brainwash, so simply state the opposite… claim that cults help people escape from brainwashing. what is dangerous becomes safe, what is hateful becomes love. what is damaging becomes healthy. what is healthy becomes damaging, what is abnormal becomes normal, what is bizarre and weird is “the product of ordinary life,” what is up is down, and so on. just deny. just deny. just deny. the first two steps of the sequence: De and Ny.

83. fofblogmoderator - January 2, 2009

65 is newly moderated

84. lauralupa - January 2, 2009

DC 78
You tend to forget that the fact that we were all looking for a school doesn’t mean that we really found one.

Mystical Manipulation
This is one of Robert J. Lifton’s eight criteria for a “thought reform”, or “brainwashing” program.

Potential converts are convinced that there is a higher purpose within the special group.
Everyone is manipulating everyone else, under the belief that it advances the “ultimate purpose”. Experiences are engineered to appear to be spontaneous, when, in fact, they are contrived to have a deliberate effect. People mistakenly attribute their experiences to spiritual causes when, in fact, they are concocted by human beings. (See Lowell Streiker’s description of emotional religious conversion experiences).
Mystical manipulation is the perception of coincidental or inevitable events as spiritual signs. Recruits are taught that such signs reveal the greatness of the group.

Another aspect of cult dogma is how cults will make sweeping arbitrary groundless statements that are based on no commonly-accepted facts at all. For instance, the 3HO cult says that the reason that men have beards and women do not is because men have an energy center in the middle of their chin that must be protected from the feminine lunar energy or else the men will become hysterical and act like women. Say what? Where did that come from?

Relatively new members rise in status and confirm their membership in the group by showing their skill in attacking dissidents and critics with the standard dogma and arguments — that is, by showing their skill in parroting the party line.

Often, the cult will claim that it possesses some great new discovery, invention, or revelation from God.

“Never before in history has mankind had this great new blessing which our guru has brought to us…”
The cult leader claims, “God has revealed to no man before what He has revealed to me.”

In Scientology, the leader L. Ron Hubbard bragged that he had made breakthroughs in human psychology that no person had ever accomplished before, and that he had then developed a new technology of the mind unknown to humankind before. (And you couldn’t prove him wrong about anything because you weren’t an advanced Scientologist — you are so primitive and brain-damaged, they say, that you cannot even see the truth that Hubbard saw.)

Irrationality in the group’s beliefs and teachings is one of the big red flags to watch for. Another giant warning sign is the refusal to fix things that are wrong, and refusal to even admit that something is wrong. The cult will usually claim that all of its beliefs, teachings, and tenets are sacred and cannot be changed. If you find something that is wrong — even an obvious error — they will either deny it, and claim that it is right and you are wrong (“You don’t understand”), because of some explanation that often involves redefining a bunch of words, or they will rationalize the error and say that it’s all okay anyway and shouldn’t be changed, for some reason or other. They simply will not modify their beliefs to agree with the facts. It’s like the old saying, “I won’t allow my opinions to be swayed by mere facts.”

Some of the most outrageous cult tenets are statements that are unverifiable, unprovable, or unevaluable (at least, in this world). For example:

I have tested you before. We were both monks in ancient Egypt, and I was your teacher then. (Paul Brunton, see Jeffrey Masson.)
I am from Venus.
My real home is Sirius, and when I die, I will return there.
I was voluntarily, consciously, reborn on this planet to help get mankind through this crisis.
God is pleased when you follow these principles. (Dr. Frank N. D. Buchman and William G. Wilson)
The reason you feel all of that tension and stiffness in your neck is because the way you died in your last incarnation was you were beheaded.
The reason you feel such hostility towards her is, she killed you in your last incarnation.
Having sex with a negative person will damage your spiritual body.
Master is the Messiah. (Moonies, Rajneeshees, Premies, and many others)
The Devil is trying to get into your mind and influence your thinking, and lead you astray. (Moonies)
The only reason we are born in this world is to attain Self Realization. (ISKCON, the Hari Krishnas)
Buying these expensive trinkets for your dead ancestors will make them happy. (Moonies)
When we get one-third of the world chanting, we will achieve World Peace. (Nichiren Shoshu, aka Soka Gakkai)
There is a flying saucer hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet, just waiting to take us to Heaven. All we have to do is discard our physical bodies and go hitch a ride on it, to get to Heaven. (Heaven’s Gate)
Ten generations of your ancestors are stuck at a lower level in the spirit world, and they are depending on you for their salvation. If you don’t follow Rev. Moon, all of those ancestors will accuse you throughout eternity of failing your responsibility. (Moonies, see Hassan, RTB, p.236.)
Our leader has reincarnated time after time, throughout history, bringing mankind yet another great invention or discovery each time. He has been many of the greatest and most famous men in history. Without our leader, mankind would never have progressed beyond the dark ages. (Scientology, see John Atack.)
(…. here one can add any of Robert Burton’s own copious wiseacreings)

Obviously, none of those statements can be tested to see if they are really true or not (not without dying, that is). Some cults spin huge webs of such vague fluff, until it seems like everything anyone in the group is saying is just more of the same indefinite and unprovable nonsense. In turn, that vague, insubstantial feeling about so many things helps to make the cult members more detached from reality.

all this and much more at:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html#cq_guru_right

But obviously, regardless of all evidence to the contrary, the Fellowship of Friends is NOT a harmful cult and thought reform environment, right, DC?

85. Crouching Tiger - January 2, 2009

Ellen and Laura.

LL: “Sometimes those peak moments can help to trigger a deeper and lasting process of individual transformation and integration, what I would call a spiritual awakening. But “High” states do not necessarily lead to lasting awareness, increased perceptivity and spiritual maturity. In fact, they generally risk to become an end in itself, feeding the experiencer’s ego and leading to further self delusion and attachment.” Yes! Absolutely right. (IMO)

E. “When I think about the Fellowship – and it is very individual because people did have a wide range of experiences – so I have to speak quite personally, it was possible to experience a wide variety of spiritual highs. But those highs were interpreted within a conceptual framework that imprisoned rather than liberated. Wow, current member, this is for you, wake up!”

I feel this is all very close to the truth at the heart of the fellowship. As a member, I was encouraged to make an equation: higher state=being present=building a soul. If you asked a question, the answer was invariably ‘Be present more’ or ‘Do the sequence more’, or ‘Come to more events and have more higher states’….

It’s not hard to solicit ‘higher states’. You can find techniques for it in any Mind Body Spirit section of a bookshop. But if you want to conduct an experiment with volatile energies, it’s best to do it in some sort of controlled environment. The fellowship was never in my experience a controlled environment in that sense. It was happy to let off explosion after explosion inside its students without any idea of the outcome. Yes, the explosions could frequently feel very pleasant, but really none of us had much idea was happening as a result of them…

What was missing was a sense of ‘earthing’ – of connection to your own body and to the everyday world outside you. ‘Earthing’, meaning a sense of normality, of body, mind, feelings and sex working in the right way and with their own energy. No lopsidedness, or one function dominating all the others. No conscription of energies by a certain feature, and used for another purpose. Electrical circuits of any kind, are only safe and stable when connected to an ‘earth’:

“Electrical circuits may be connected to ground (earth) for several reasons. Connection to ground is done for safety purposes, to prevent parts from acquiring a dangerous voltage in the event of a failure of electrical insulation. A connection to ground helps limit the voltage built up between power circuits and the earth. Connections to ground may be used to limit the build-up of static electricity when handling flammable products or when repairing electronic devices. In some types of telegraph and power transmission circuits, the earth itself can be used as one conductor of the circuit, saving the cost of installing a separate run of wire as a return conductor. For measurement purposes, the Earth serves as a constant potential reference against which other potentials can be measured.

In electronic circuit theory, a ‘ground’ is usually idealized as an infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of current without changing its potential.

The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and electronics applications that circuits in vehicles such as ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a “ground” connection without any actual connection to the Earth.” Wikipedia.

If you say that soliciting a ‘higher state’ means connecting yourself to a powerful electrical current, it’s vital to have an ‘earth’ – a stable body and functions ready to receive the charge.

In my own experience, I gradually realised that this kind of earthing didn’t exist in the fellowship. Both Life and the life of the body are rejected as products of the King of Clubs, the enemy, thus stopping him playing the essential role he was meant for.

It’s dangerous, it’s insane, and at its highest it produces lopsided people – like RB and GH – who believe totally in their own power. A very dangerous situation when they are leading a ‘school’.

86. lauralupa - January 2, 2009

art 82
Agreed, but to be more precise I’d say that he is learning that notion here in the blog, quite in spite of himself.
Yes current members, beware, if you hang around here too long your cherished beliefs and well established thought patterns may actually begin to show holes and crumble!
DC, you should really say your goodbyes now before it’s too late…

87. dragon - January 2, 2009

Reading all the great links and posts of the New Year 2009, I would like to recommend Lauralupa’s link again.

Whatever you are believing, whatever you are doing, it is absolutely worth to gain insight in our life experience or our presence or whatever.

PLEASE GIVE THAT LINK AS A PRESENT TO YOUR INNER SELF!

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html

Lauralupa it is a direct hit for everyone!

And current members:

Your arduuously maintained thought blockade might be relaxed.

The BLOG has sometimes the abilities of a mental chiropractor, so don’t hesitate to read the posts!

88. tatyana - January 2, 2009

DC

“The obvious reason is that you valued knowing yourself enough to stay, and you valued applying that knowledge in a Work environment.”

Define “Work environment” please.

“You stayed because you were receiving what you came for.”

I was not receiving what I came for, yet I stayed. I stayed because I was confused, I was ignorant and after I found out certain facts I stayed because I had self-doubts and fear of losing the loved ones.

“When people get a divorce is it because their mate suddenly became a different person? Or because they found out something that hurt them? You can’t ignore the fact that sometimes people simply get restless and want a change.”

This is an interesting statement. So, you think that any divorce is a sign of Tramp and chasing a novelty? How do you experience a relationship? As real estate – once you bought it and you know all about it, the only reason you sell it and move would be for the wish to change?

“Staying on course is difficult in general and in the FoF staying is made especially difficult in order to keep the school at the level of the fastest students.”

So, according to you, staying is difficult because it is a test for the weak links? The fastest students “get it”, right? The more difficult it is I assume the closer you are to be a fastest one? You know how difficult it would be to stay if Robert will ask you to drink poison? I just hope you will quit playing the “dare” game before it is too late.

“I think the big lure for many ex members is that after a while they think they have all the knowledge and look around and say – why stay and pay all this money and put up with this or that?”
Yes, why?

“I have what I came for; what will prevent me from using what I learned “on the outside?” And believing one can take with one a well ordered Work environment designed for group work is the beginning of “filing for divorce.”

Again, define “a well ordered Work environment” Well ordered sex orgy, well ordered meeting with the cards well written and given to the fastest students to read? Well cooked dinner and well washed pots?

89. Daily Cardiac - January 2, 2009

art – 82:

“I think he has learned something else. he has finally admitted that the fof is a cult.”

If that’s what you deduced from my comments it only serves to prove what I’ve been saying for the last 20 pages – ex members have no bounds when it comes to concocting their own “truth.”

90. art - January 2, 2009

dc 89: “ex members have no bounds when it comes to concocting their own “truth.” ”
—-

I wouldn’t lecture anyone here about “concocting the truth.” You have it down to an art form.

And, by the way, you’re still here. Didn’t you say you have better things to do? Or did you change your mind when the page was lit up with some more whoppers about Burton?

91. elena - January 2, 2009

Nigel, 70,
Thank you for going into all that trouble. You really are a lot more sane than you claim to be! What fun!

Thank you Art. I know others have exposed these techniques here but it is not easy to grasp anything unless it is repeated many times. I’m only now beginning to see the pattern clearly. It’s as socio-pathic and numbed as Robert himself! I wonder how much he gets paid. He could be anyone with minimal training on Fellowship dogma. He doesn’t really go into anything deep and circles the same old pattern consistently. It must make the Fellowship members humble to realize that they don’t have anyone that can stand up for them. Interesting that Abraham G. wouldn’t even represent them in court and without someone they can’t even trust for the job, they are going to have a hell of a difficult time. There are things that money can’t pay no matter how much of it you’ve stolen.

Art: “his thought-terminating one liner is an example of orwell’s “double speak.” Cults brainwash, so simply state the opposite… claim that cults help people escape from brainwashing. what is dangerous becomes safe, what is hateful becomes love. what is damaging becomes healthy. what is healthy becomes damaging, what is abnormal becomes normal, what is bizarre and weird is “the product of ordinary life,” what is up is down, and so on. just deny. just deny. just deny. the first two steps of the sequence: De and Ny.”

Lauralupe,
as usual: much to the point. Thank you so very much.

On the subject of “highs” I didn’t get highs from Robert’s events but I watched horrified how people were falling fanatically in idolatry at the end, which I had thought he himself disapproved of. He did at the beginning: no pictures of him, then a hundred dollars a picture. The more fanatism I saw the further away it drew me from him until I intentionally made an effort to listen carefully to what he was saying and realized that he was pulling our leg like any other catholic priest about the lower self or the devil. So cheap! So much harm for such poverty.

But I got beautiful highs in the meetings without Robert at the beginning trying to share with the people I thought had committed to consciousness. I loved our “School” so deeply. Everyone kept dead silent and thought I was crazy then too. It’s such a good thing to get used to being insane in other’s eyes. After a while, one wonders who are the insane ones and doesn’t worry about it any more but for a long time it was painful, fearful and filled me with self doubt. It is becoming a permanent object of separation! You spend a long time on your own and then it doesn’t matter how much more on your own you spend time. But it sure is fun to have company once in a while! Thanks Peter.

In the meantime, I spent the day in the hospital with my father. My step mother went in for surgery. Now we’re all back home! All is well!

92. Daily Cardiac - January 3, 2009

Ellen – 66

“Rather I acknowledge a deeper wellspring source of pure living, loving, illuminated energy – as mine and every sentient being’s birthright – capable of burtsing through all conceptual packages. I center my love and attention there.

So as to my departure from the Fellowship, I answer to Influence C and Influence C alone. And spontaneous conscious influence has by no means deserted me, but rather increased in its bounty with grace and riches.”

We’ve had this conversation before Ellen. So, for what is probably the last time – What you so eloquently describe above is available in the FoF. That is the only point I’ve put forward.

If you experience this reality outside of the FoF I am happy for you. You won’t find it stated in any comments I’ve wrote that Influence C does not work with people outside the FoF.

If I’m not mistaken it’s you who have suggested that the reality you describe above is not available within the FoF. If I am mistaken and you have not suggested this then I stand corrected.

But judging from your comments and knowing my situation I would say that all is well for both of us.

93. brucelevy - January 3, 2009

92. Daily Cardiac

So when are you leaving DB? You’ve been stating you’re impending leave several times. I would assume that you’ve developed, at least, some rudimentary “will” in your school of presents. You’re coming off as an even bigger asshole than before. I know it’s difficult not being able to see the phenomenal workings of your own mind displayed before your own face. Personally I won’t miss your *SSWATB.

* Self satisfied whiny ass titty baby.

94. tatyana - January 3, 2009

It is very clear that RB uses hypnotic techniques. He makes money on his students. This is his #1 goal.
He also wants to secure that they will be coming for more, so the addiction to his influence is his #2 goal.
To recruit more people who will increase income or replace the lost members is #3 goal.

Most energy goes into the inflicting an addiction. This is done by repeating 3 basic ideas in a various forms a few times a week:
1.do the sequence/be present/remember yourself;
2.C influence is watching you, sending you reminders and working with you to help you to become immortal;
3. Life/lowerSelf/laughter/jacks-queens/thinking/ex-students/B-influence are your enemies and soon will cease to be.

Besides the fact that trance is an addictive state, fear of a doom-day and wish for immortality are 2 major factors that keep people coming for a “fix”. And it never fails – every time you leave the meeting you feel more present, more encouraged that C influence are on your side and more incorruptible against the evil forces of sleep…. and with less money in your bank.

95. art - January 3, 2009

about the topic of “negativity”… i.e. bruce unleashing a few punches in number 93.

will someone please explain to me how calling dc a “self satisfied whiny ass titty baby” and “bigger asshole than before” is somehow more of a transgression than rb fucking every youthful male follower he can get his hands on while simultaneously suggesting that everyone is spiritually doomed who objects to him fucking every youthful male follower he can get his hands on?

hmm. on the one hand, we have a few words on a computer screen that might jolt someone awake from their group thinking for a moment.

on the other hand, we have a guy who fucks every youthful male follower he can get his hands on and suggests everyone is spiritually doomed who objects to him fucking every youthful male follower he can get his hands on.

something — maybe, perhaps, possibly — is out of whack with that worldview.

96. Old Fish in the Sea - January 3, 2009

I enjoyed the link from Laura Lupa, reposted by Dragon in 87. Jill Bolt Taylor does a nice job of explaining the two halves of the brain. I believe understanding the two brains helps to explain the attraction of the Fellowship and how many of us stayed so long.

Without knowing or calling it the right brain, the FOF tried to create environments and methods that promoted the functioning of the right half. Perhaps in earlier years, the left half was more appreciated but in later years the left half (intellectual analysis) became defined as the lower self.

I think it is positive that the Fellowship provides an environment that feeds the right half of the brain because in average American society the right brain is not given much space.

But the FOF overemphasized the importance of the states created by the right brain. The states created normally by the right brain became the grand elixir of all problems and the seat of immortality.

The right brain feeds off of and enjoys impressions while producing a sense of existence, oneness, connectedness and flow. It represents right work in some circumstances. As wonderful as the right brain is, I believe it is incorrect to assign religious significance to it. But this is what we did.

Having learned to ignore our left brain while work towards right brain dominance, many of us were able to go along with (at least not actively object to) the predictions and follow the teacher at least from a distance. I think we learned to tolerate decisions from license plates, hear reinterpretations of history, and support activities and concepts, which with a little analysis, would have been impossible to support. We accepted reprogramming of our principles to accept Robert and deny life. We developed fears which rarely came into our consciousness, but blocked change: fear of stepping out of line, fear of speaking badly about the teacher, fear of not fitting in with the group, fear of becoming or being instinctive, fear of not working, fear of leaving.

The combination of nice states, the ability to tune out contradictions, some beautiful moments and friends and some unnoticed but very deep fears of leaving might have been enough for many of us to stay. But there was another factor. As each year passed, we generally became more connected. I had a house, a spouse, children, a job, friendships, obligations and responsibilities that revolved around being a member. So every thought of leaving carried with it a disentanglement problem. It was too much of a mess to think about selling my house, how leaving would affect my job, what I would do for friends, how my wife and children would fare, and what would happen if I abandoned my responsibilities. It was much easier to just turn on that right brain, go with the flow, and enjoy what was.

The ability to block out analysis of the Fellowship manifested as an enormous lack of curiosity about Robert and his contradictions and about the contradictions in my own life. I did not want to know. It also showed as a sense of worthlessness, apathy and a lack hope. Work was my escape. At least work felt productive. I could go for years without seriously questioning and then when circumstances did force a few doubts, it was difficult to dwell on the doubts because of the entanglement problem. It was daunting to think of leaving. It was like jumping into the dark – into a world where most of my daily connections would disappear.

Even now, it is sometimes easier and more enjoyable to turn on the harmony brain and not think about things that beg for attention and require action. I guess it is a nice skill to have in some instances but it is not something to be proud of, certainly not an indication of a higher being.

97. whalerider - January 3, 2009

art:
Congratulations! I am glad you are here.

And how long out of the Fellowship of Friends AKA Pathway to Presence cult did it take for you to gain that relativity?

98. elena - January 3, 2009

More aspects of law that continue to trouble me

One of the reasons basic human rights such as freedom of speech matter so much to me is that I am convinced that it is precisely the fact that one is impeded to exercise such rights what prompts the condition of dependence on the cult as ones sense of one’s self is weakened, precisely by the fact that one is having to cut essential aspects of one’s self too short.

So “short” that although life seems to be lived “normally” in a Cult, the feeling of isolation and implicit threat is experienced by the cult member in a very similar way in which battered wives experience life. “Life” is apparently “normal” but the idea that one can get thrown out any time is very much in perspective from day one. All these things were my experiences but it is easier to talk to them with some detachment. Without the “detachment”: I had joined a Conscious School, CONSCIOUS SCHOOL, the realization of my greatest dream was being realized and I didn’t want to be thrown out for making any silly mistake like asking too many questions. So instead of asking questions I dedicated to affirming my own understandings and was eventually given the task to not speak for two years. (You keep trying to give me the same task here Daily Cardiac and the more you imply it the more I want to talk! There must be something wrong with your technique!)

When an individual, as I was, is induced to believe that he/she has joined the only conscious school on earth and to move to that Community with all her/his belongings and children, that Community becomes her family, nation and way of life. All the laws proper of any Community on Earth are applicable to her/his situation.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

_______________Isn’t that beautiful? How much more conscious would you like it Ellen?

The Fellowship Cult instead dictates that its members are third class citizens without reason or conscience and should act towards Bobo Robert as if he were a goddess in a male body, a man number 6.3, a divine being four floors above your being equal to Jesus Christ!

Ha! Ha! Ha! The poor judges are going to laugh their heads off and throw me out of court for being so ridiculous to believe such crap! No wonder ex-members hide too ashamed to realize the stupidity that we got a master degree on!

Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

____________The Fellowship doesn’t make distinction on the basis of political, jurisdictional or international status, race, colour, language, religion or political status, Robert likes them all! He only discriminates against women and age. No women, no children and no old people!

How human! These is what you in the Greater Fellowship are protecting?

Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

__________Life
Not in the Fellowship. Although I went to live in Oregon House because Robert Burton suggested in many of his Daily Cards that a member should live close to the Teacher, “be in the heart of the School”, if he/she wanted to work seriously when I state that I lived in the Community of the Fellowship I am told that it wasn’t a community but a School and therefore I should not expect to have the rights people in a community have. But this doesn’t quite match reality. We “lived” in the community of the Fellowship, we married, abandoned our children and families, joined the “Arc of Humanity”, worked, opened centres and what was the expression the Fellowship demanded? That we place our life in the work? The School? And not the work in our life? Please help with this one, it’s crucial!

Liberty
Freedom? To not speak with ex-members, read newspapers, spend time with the six billion dead people on the planet……..OR

Security
Get thrown out for not working with the “Teacher’s Agenda of Systematic brainwashing.”

HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! This must be the funniest soap opera I’ve ever witnessed! The real problem is that we’re so absolutely ridiculous that how could anyone take us seriously! Ha, ha, ha! We should have some of the professional comedians write some comedies about this! Then we can burn our selves outside the gate-house so that people realize the pathetism of our story!
Article 4

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Sex slavery,
money making slavery,
ego inflating slavery,
goddess in a male body cheap alchemy slavery,
skirt and tie slavery,
tucsedo slavery,
good-householder slavery,
shiny shoes slavery,
silence slavery,
ready made thoughts slavery,
44 Conscious beings slavery
Breakfast, lunch and dinner with Robert slavery!
Ha-Ha-Ha-ha-ha!
No laughter slavery!
The sequence slavery!
Payment slavery
Music slavery
MUSIC SLAVERY
No family slavery
No life people slavery
“No locals” slavery!

You can replace slavery for identification and you can start counting the myriad “identifications” that your cult has set you up with so that you become it’s predilect slave.

You think you’ve freed yourselves from life but you’ve fallen deep in the Cult trance of the Fellowship and your life is narrower and narrower each day.

Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

____________Torture:
One or two members faint in almost every Sunday meeting.

The hidden agenda with such a practice is to make the members believe that they are making effort and learning to develop their will but it is the most inhuman and degrading treatment from a sick narcissist inflating his ego and relishing in the power he has to punish the members for their idiocy. It is the moment that all narcissist gurus long for. It is the summit of their narcicism. It is an unforgettable experience in which you get a taste for the subtlety of being able to degrade a whole group of people with their absolute consent due to their extreme condition of submission and dependence.
Torture in Cults is not the obvious physical torture that we are used to hearing about in concentration camps and prisons, it is a much more refined practice in which people are not harmed physically but psychologically. It is precisely in relation to themselves as human individuals that they are hurt. The term “sheep” is not casual because if humans were animals there would be no difference between a herd of animals and the members of the cult. What is severed from the members in a Cult is their HUMANITY: NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS.

Those qualities that we recognize as being essentially human is what members are banned from exercising: Speech, thought, solidarity, dance, music, individual creation, spontaneity, conscience, …. Please add if you wish.

Article 6

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

________exile

members are “exiled” from the Fellowship without the knowledge of other members. When you are induced to believe that you are in the only conscious school on earth to be asked to leave it, it is no less than being exiled from the community, country and nation that you had committed to for the rest of your life.

Article 10

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

_____________No one is entitled to defending themselves from the abuses of the FOF.

I know of members of the FOF, who have been physically threatened by a man known to be extremely dangerous who is said to be held for prosecution related to members from Scientology.

The FOF has used such tactics against its members.

Article 11

Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬______________Members are arbitrarily asked to separate from their families, wives and or leave their children.

Article 13

Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14

Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15

Everyone has the right to a nationality.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
___________Our “Nationality” was being men number Four for a fixed lifetime!
Ha-ha-ha-ha!

Article 16

Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

__________Many of our families were dismembered.

Article 17

Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

______________In Kiran’s story at the hospital where they tried to make him sign his business out to the Fellowship thinking he would die, you can get another look at what inspires the Fellowship Cult.

Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

_____________Cults are not religions. There is no freedom in Cults. The closest institution to a Cult is a Concentration Camp in which people are made to do very specific things and live in a very specific way.

Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

99. art - January 3, 2009

whalerider, you mean the “sociopath way to presence” website. yes. it’s been many years since i left. but honestly this blog has been quite the eye opener for me. i’m guessing it’s helping a lot of others piece things together, too.
——

old fish, you must be the william we saw earlier? or sorry if mistaken, but something sounds similar in your voices.

i like your thoughts and appreciate your need to bring some harmony here, even if uncensored and unbridled dissonance (in my opinion) is a necessary part of this as well. deferential thinking was the glue that gave bob power. lack of deference to the fof experience and to bob is a good thing.

not that you are deferential, but i sense you feel uncomfortable with the shouting. i say shout; it’s a bit like a runner who needs to stretch and jump to loosen up before a race. no stretching, no racing, no speed. we were not only taught not to stretch our thinking. we taught to just avoid the running altogether.

About “blocking out analysis” of bob and the fof, as you put it, i honestly think it’s just the opposite — that we were way too analytical about bob.

what eventually brought people to a realization of the fraud was entirely bypassing the analysis and thinking, and just opening our eyes. nothing more, nothing less. it’s right there in front of us.

100. art - January 3, 2009

whalerider, i’m very glad you’re here, too. by the way, bob and the fof enablers like to frame the argument in such a way where “the blog” is like a mob of the “many ‘I’s.” or even just a mob of people, screaming, shouting, too emotional, too negative, and hateful, and definitely not credible sources of information.

hmm. right.

the fof doctrine is Hate Personified. listen to bob’s words. listen to the disdain he expresses for all others who do not give him what he wants, and who do not join him.

I was watching a series on HBO last year called, “John Adams,” about the 2nd President of the United States. they describe Adams as a very hard-working, intelligent, self-effacing, flawed, yet passionate man who was maybe the most important catalyst in leading the colonies to war for independence.

whether Adams actually said this or not, or whether it was just part of the movie’s script, i don’t know, but he says:

“A mob is no less a mob because they are with you.”

bob wants his followers to believe that WE are the mob, his former followers. But like so many things, he has that backwards:

When we were members of the fellowship of friends, were not just members of a cult: we had joined a mob.

101. Daily Cardiac - January 3, 2009

art:

Are you ton, or Harryhindsight? My guess is ton.

102. dick moron - January 3, 2009

101. Daily Cardiac

art:

Are you ton, or Harryhindsight? My guess is ton.
__________________________

Lower self
Lower self
Lower self

You are sounding like an old smalll-town gossip now.

103. art - January 3, 2009

neither. are you robert burton or girard haven?

104. whalerider - January 3, 2009

art:
You are right. As we have said before, it’s hard to describe water to a fish.

Your simple implied question: How could the followers be so blind?… represents a very crucial stage in waking up from the cult trance. For many it takes years after they leave to realize the depth of Burton’s deception. Why did you leave?

I am still tripping on something Walter Tanner said last page or so…that he thought Fellowship of Friends followers felt Burton’s sex drive was admirable at his age…despite the fact that he using his position to go after younger heterosexual male followers in a predatory manner…like a male college professor in a girl’s college with a drawer full of viagra might go after his lesbian students, with the rationalization that he was somehow helping them evolve. If this is so, what fools these mortals be!

elena:
Cardiac Arrest thinks you ought to go out and get a life.

Do you really believe for one second that he gives a shit about you or any of us?

He’s just jealous…otherwise he’d stop posting.

DC is a vector for the Burton virus that would silence us.

105. art - January 3, 2009

re: the dubious “freedoms” enjoyed by the FOF, here’s a quote from one of the American founding fathers:

“Posterity, you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that ever I took half the pains to preserve it.”

– John Adams

106. nigel harris price - January 3, 2009

72 Ellen

It is not so much what you see, as that you respond to it. Remember, we are all guests in this universe. I would love to show you in person…..Nigel.

107. Wouldnt You Like To Know - January 3, 2009

96. Old Fish in the Sea

While much of what you said I, too, agree with, there is something more to be said regarding right brain activity. The type of ‘right brain activity’ that the Fellowship of Friends, AKA Pathway to Presence, would wish to promote is significantly impaired; as it is with many FoF approaches to using psychological constructs. FoF spins them to its own limited, and sometimes adverse, purposes and therefore uses them incomplete. In particular, ‘right brain activity’ is existential, experiential, creative, empathic and intuitive. And, specifically, as to creativity, empathy and intuition, for example, the Fellowship of Friends is/was not particularly interested in developing those aspects of using the right brain capacities, in IMHO.

Creativity in the Work is/was not encouraged. Those who are/were creative, artists for example, often forced to ’emulate the Great Masters’ by rote, ad nauseam.

How could empathy thrive in an organization that institutionalized abuse to the extent that it does/did?

‘Trust your intuition’ is/was certainly not promoted as I experience FoF. Trusting your intuition would mean that conscience would have to develop.

Do you get what I am after here?

In this sense, the phrase ‘higher right,’ not only refers to that which comes from, or closer to, Influence C (as it is typically used in FoF); it, likewise, could mean choosing a path that transforms negative emotions (right use of emotional brain), or, calls on other right brain functions, for example. But that is not the way the term is/was used, IMHO. It is/was used in a narrow fundamentalist domineering manner.

Searching the internet, this list of right brain characteristics was found. Ask yourselves, ‘To what extent of holistic, inclusive and synthesizing (right brain approach) were all of them applied across the FoF membership?’:

* Improved communications at all levels;
* Improved health;
* Physical agility improved;
* Improved sex life;
* Psychic ability gained;
* Problem solving enhanced;
* Ability to image better;
* Ability to discern at deeper levels;
* Creativity greatly enhanced;
* Opens new levels of consciousness;
* Able to learn new things more easily;
* Increases I.Q.;
* Harmonizes individual with environment;
* Aids in gaining a positive outlook;
* Improves financial ability;
* Improves ability to work;
* Abundant available energy;
etc.

The point I am making is that certain of the right brain functions were utilized, like appreciation of aesthetics, because it suited FoF purposes. But others, like ‘creative visualization,’ were not, and was called ‘imagination.’

Here is an interesting link found on this subject:
Are you Right Brain or Left Brain?:
http://current.com/items/88850782/are_you_right_brain_or_left_brain.htm

108. nigel harris price - January 3, 2009

91 elena

About this sanity/insanity thing…………

There is a vast difference between a Saturnine sociopath and a Mars/Jovial/Solar with bipolar affective disorder. The former is permanently emotionally/intellectually disfigured whereas the latter ‘is OK most of the time, but now and then the cheese slips off his cracker’…..Nigel.

109. nigel harris price - January 3, 2009

Sorry 90 elena………..

110. nigel harris price - January 3, 2009

Oh. God, geat start to the day – RIGHT FIRST TIME…..Nigel.

111. nigel harris price - January 3, 2009

I had some time to think this morning about the posts by DC. Have not many bloggers replied to his posts in individualistic ways and have they not been met by more FOF-babble by DC. The point I am trying to make is that many who have left the FOF have found THEIR OWN SELVES (or are at least on the way there, although temporary difficulties with the ‘leaving process’ are still apparent) whereas, if posts by DC are anything to go by (and I am sure there are other current members posting), there is only Fofdom and group identity to be found in the cult as it is now. Obviously, I would enjoy a sincere reply by DC to this post, but I am not sure that I (and, perhaps, other bloggers) are going to be convinced by his formatory and small-minded scribblings. Take it away, DC…..Nigel.

112. ton - January 3, 2009

“Suggestibility, a state of greatly enhanced receptiveness and responsiveness to suggestions and stimuli, constitutes the central phenomenon of hypnosis. It is characterized by the remarkable facility with which the subject can respond to either external stimuli or those deriving from inner experiential acquisition. However, suggestions must be acceptable to the subject, and rejection of them can be based upon whim as easily as upon sound reasons. By acceptance of and response to suggestions, the subject can become psychologically deaf, blind, hallucinated, amnesic, anesthetic or dissociated, or he can develop various special types of behavior regarded by him as reasonable or desirable in the given situation.”

DC before you leave i want to thank you for the many examples of brainwashing and cult-think you’ve exposed in your posts, thank you for helping to reveal the tentacles of mind control and in the process helping others to understand what they too may have once been victim of…. i wish you well and my hope for you is that you can wake up before you die.

i also want to say FUCK YOU VERY MUCH for your continued support of that delusional, depraved and damaging little cult, it is a parasite on the human spirit. the fact that your little doomsday cult is on it’s surface so antithetical toward life and the living, this might be considered a warning sign, it’s something i occasionally still worry about…. but i think as long as the parasite can continue to feed off of the living you are probably ‘safe’ from the fate suffered and inflicted upon other doomsday/suicide cults…. as long as the parasite can continue sucking the life out of life, that queen fairy you call ‘the teacher’ doesn’t have any reason, much less the courage or the conviction to actually end it all ala koresh/branch davidians, heaven’s gate, people’s temple, solar temple, the jihadists, etc….

113. The FOFion - January 3, 2009

Former Customers Protest ‘Scam’ by Mount Whitney Adventures

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — At first glance, the headquarters for Mount Whitney Adventures may seem like the corporate offices for any other travel/adventure company. There’s a logo painted neatly in the middle of the glass window, and a receptionist calmly greets you as you enter through the front door.

What’s more, the corporate website seems innocent enough: a few pages describing the adventure tours that are available. And the site displays several photos of happy climbers standing at the top of Mount Whitney — a peak in the southern Sierra Nevada that’s notable for being the highest in the continental U.S.

But when you listen to a few former Whitney customers, you get a different picture of this secretive company.

“You know, we talked about Mount Whitney all the time,” said one former customer. “We had meetings about it, we displayed photos of it on the wall of every building, we examined numerous California maps that showed us how to get there, we studied trail maps of the mountain itself, and we planned trips to it all the time. Plus, we purchased thousands of dollars worth of climbing equipment and outdoor gear over several years. But you know what: I don’t know one customer who ever climbed Mount Whitney. Not one. It’s weird.”

The former customer (let’s call him X) had one more shocking allegation: “Not only did no one ever climb Mount Whitney; but it’s become very clear that no has ever driven a car anywhere near it.”

Instead, X says customers gather leisurely in Oregon House — a small town near Nevada City, Calif. — and it’s here that they congregate at an unfinished estate, drinking wine, listening to harp music, smiling contentedly, and talking in hushed tones. It’s nothing even remotely similar to rock climbing, hiking, or mountain climbing, X says, and what travels do occur are limited to a select few — usually to Egypt, Mexico, and the south of France, and other similar locations with cozy, pricey hotels.

“Among the people doing the traveling are a few climbing instructors, the CEO, and a group of guys who join him,” X said. “But believe me, they never see the mountain, let alone climb it.”

Whitney Adventures bills itself as the “best company for adventure and climbing since the time of Christ.” The CEO tells his customers that Whitney is “guided” by numerous former climbing greats. “They are leading the way for us,” said the CEO at a recent company meeting.

But even many current customers acknowledge that the company “may be a sham and a scam.”

To some, that’s alright.

“Yes, I know it’s a scam,” said one long-time customer. “But it’s the price you pay. And I’ve paid a lot of money over the years. I’ve listened to some great harp music. I have a little group of close friends. Well, yes, sure, they won’t be close friends anymore if they stop buying that climbing gear. Sure, I realize that.. But I have this great dream of climbing Mount Whitney. I can’t stop now. I can’t give up on the dream.”

114. James Mclemore - January 3, 2009

113. The FOFion

Great!!

115. nigel harris price - January 3, 2009

114 James McLemore

Yeah!…..It just keeps getting better, don’t it?…..Nigel.

116. elena - January 3, 2009

Nice posts, thanks all. Art, what a stabilizing energy you’re bringing.

Dragon, have a lovely day! Or rather, evening!

Wylitknow: “The point I am making is that certain of the right brain functions were utilized, like appreciation of aesthetics, because it suited FoF purposes. But others, like ‘creative visualization,’ were not, and was called ‘imagination.’”

Nice! I would like to accentuate your point and say that it was not just that it suited the Fellowship, Robert manipulated the artists and art to legitimize the Fellowship with the disguise of “Culture” but like everything else he did, he stayed in the “Cult” without completing the “Culture” and finally took the great leap and made of Culture blind belief in rhino poo.

Wylitknow: “Improved communications at all levels;
* Improved health;
* Physical agility improved;
* Improved sex life;
* Psychic ability gained;
* Problem solving enhanced;
* Ability to image better;
* Ability to discern at deeper levels;
* Creativity greatly enhanced;
* Opens new levels of consciousness;
* Able to learn new things more easily;
* Increases I.Q.;
* Harmonizes individual with environment;
* Aids in gaining a positive outlook;
* Improves financial ability;
* Improves ability to work;
* Abundant available energy;·

It also sounds like a healthy first and second line of work would depend on the Right brain functioning freely and these are distorted and badly damaged in the Fellowship by the blind and dogmatic third line manipulation of influence C as the “authority” behind Robert, that allows him to dictate what everyone should do, when, where and how. The classic pattern of a “divine authority” that gives him the power over others.

God, This is wonderful! You’ve touched on the very point that many members haven’t been able to digest, still convinced that the Fellowship was not all bad because some sincere artists made the effort to make the concentration camp life, bearable. While the artists were working sincerely and resist to throw it all in the pile of muck that the Fellowship is, it is very difficult for them to come to terms with the fact that all their talent, all their beauty and all their effort, was simply manipulated by Robert for his own personal gain and their detriment. Their detriment, because in not allowing them to “create” and conditioning them to particular interpretations that HE chose, he “muzzled” their will into submission like he did with the rest of us. That’s the problem with Cults: they don’t harness the will into self-discipline and progress, they muzzle it into submission and involution. Freedom and culture die in the mechanics of the Cult. Individuals regress, depressed and the ready made copies of works of Art taste like stale bread starving the participants. Then he banned applauses for a long time to make sure that the artists were not recognized and he could take all the credit! He did the same with books, films or anything else any of the members worked on. He placed a few in a pedestal so that he could justify his own hierarchy but did not allow their beauty or energy to spread amongst the members. He made them his private property!

The artists, that is, the truly talented people of the Fellowship of Friends who were able to hold their creativity still inside, were raped as profoundly as the boys. Their inability to realize how badly they were used and manipulated and their unwillingness to take a stand to stop the Fellowship of Friends Cult definitely, reveals that they have not dealt with their own dark side, they have not forgiven themselves for cooperating with a narcissistic manipulator for decades. They have not understood that he manipulated them and will continue to manipulate new members, specifically with the idea that it is their vanity and not their most true self what not only “WISHES” but has a RIGHT to express itself: The freedom to be and not submit to obedience. A true Teacher does not submit its students: he helps them structure their own freedom into expression. He helps them harness their own will into being.

Had they forgiven themselves, they would not allow for others to be submitted into the same trap and would act decisively against the Fellowship. The five hundred members or more of the Greater Fellowship unwilling to sign the petition or take serious legal action against the Fellowship would much help themselves and humanity if they considered these facts. Using Crouching Tiger’s electrical analogy: they would connect to the ground: the laws, their rights and “lighten up”: free others from suffering the same abuses.

For hundreds of years the Catholic Church and other religions have placed our wishes against our rights and our will. They have presented the misconception that our will must act against our desires, demonizing our “essences”. The manipulation of RIGHTS for a few privileged ones who have access to Power and “culture” has been sustained by the same mechanisms of religious imposition that the Fellowship used and uses. But culture does not submit, nor freedom.

The DESIRE for unity and wholesomeness, the profound longing of the human spirit, the DESIRE for equality in participation, challenge the status quo of those in power today in the political as much as in the religious and economic arena. The DESIRE for equal participation and freedom is the legitimate will of the soul of mankind individually and socially and it is the WILL of our times to make of THAT DESIRE, its legitimate RIGHT. To ennoble our “essence” by making it “lawful”. To align our “desire” with our “will” in the struggle for wholesomeness is an individual as much as a social act. Unity is not unity if we are divided or separate ourselves from the whole: From the whole of mankind or from the whole of the Earth: Or for that matter, from the whole Cosmos. We are, each one of us, in the wholesomeness of our being, the summit of creation. Equality, wholesomeness, integrity, freedom are all aspects of Unity. One cannot exist without the other.

The periphery is no less noble than the centre. The integrity of the individual is no way disconnected to the integrity of the community of mankind. We are One or we are not. “To be or not to be! That is the question!”

117. dragon - January 3, 2009

101. Daily Card
concerning ART’s personality

your are so right:

The whole BLOG is one person divided into many personalities!

You could not get it before?

Inhale insence and myrrh, eat 99 oysters, take a sauna and swim the river Themse until you hear the Big Bang!

118. dragon - January 3, 2009

FOFion you are wonderful!

Hi Elena, a nice evening to You and your family!

119. Old Fish in the Sea - January 3, 2009

99- Art. For what it is worth, Old Fish is not William (the blogger), although my name is William.

107- Wouldn’t You Like To Know – Thank you for taking the discussion of the right brain further.

120. Daily Cardiac - January 3, 2009

Jomo – 60 – 205:

“Another view (i.e., my view): teasing, banter, invective, rudeness, baiting, etc. are part of normal give and take in the continuum of human communication and self-expression and can serve constructive purposes both for the speaker and the listener.”

I would say that one of the most dubious activities on the blog is the prevalent compulsion to justify the expression of negativity as having a positive function for the one it is directed at.

Your above comment would be questionable even if you and it’s other adherents could hold yourselves to the same standards but it’s abundantly clear that it’s a one way street when it comes to expressing negativity. Your mantra fits if you are on the giving side of it; but not on the receiving end.

The main proof of this was the banning of Greg. I personally I didn’t agree with Greg’s name calling and personal attacks but in truth they were no different than the ones directed at me by any number of ex members. And the ones directed at me were and are often lauded for their merit.

But the second time Greg appeared (a milder version I might add) it only took a few days before people were calling for his head. As I said the only difference between Greg and the regular blog snipers is that Greg was an equal opportunity offender; he saw no difference in bashing supporters and opponents of FoF alike.

Now if your above words were true – (negativity) “can serve constructive purposes both for the speaker and the listener” – Greg would not have been banned and people would have accepted his words with gratitude. That, after all, is how someone would receive beneficial words from someone else, is it not?

I’m sure the justifications about how what Greg was engaged in was and is different from what the regulars engage in will come pouring in from the ones who most invest in and support the expression of negativity.

Jomo – 60 – 217:

Jomo – “The blog is not a person. The blog does not have an “aim.” We are not, so far as I know, engaged in some “coordinated action.” ”

This statement is remarkable by nature of its sheer contradictoriness.

The blog has one and only one aim, which it pursues in a relentless fashion; and that aim is the demise of RB and the Fellowship of friends.

Very few posts by ex members fall outside of this concerted aim.

When you have the transparency of a blog you don’t need an actual stated aim by a group of individuals. One only needs that like minded individuals see the writings of other like minded ones in the same forum and a bond is established. The Sheik’s first post was a lighting rod for all the people who ultimately found the blog to feel comfortable in pursuing the blog’s soon to be established aim.

Complicity allows for many factors to come into play; one of them being transparency. Generally people are careful about not contradicting themselves in public; but when they are in the company of other like minded folks their guard goes down simply because they know those around them will likely excuse their foibles in revealing contridictory motives.

This “comfort level” among regular ex members allows for some monumental, almost comic, forms of contradictory statements to come into view. I guess people forget that there may be others reading (actually some of their targeted audience) who are open minded enough to see a contradiction for what it is.

Here is one case in point. These kinds are quite numerous and this is merely one of the recent ones.

When “An older student” wrote in asking me not to post any more I wrote back saying his/her words were not necessary as I had already formulated the same aim. And when I happened to stop posting for a day or two people immediately started writing in talking about how robotic and cult like it was that I immediately would abide by “an older student”‘s message of admonishment.

Then when I continued to post others wrote in admonishing me that I was breaking my stated aim to stop posting. It’s not all that surprising that I would be the one to point out this “double bind.”

Ex members often point out double binds when it serves their purpose but as a rule ex members will not point out contradictions like this to other ex members. And the reason is it goes against the aim to show anything or anyone supportive of the FoF in a poor light.

121. Ellen - January 3, 2009

#92, DC, if you are still around:
DC: “But judging from your comments and knowing my situation I would say that all is well for both of us”
Well, check your bucket there, Leroy. C Influence is your own inner guru. So, get earnest. Get straight. And get out – as fast as you can. RB does not own a personal connection to some mythical external Conscious Influence. Instead he is just the man behind the curtain, huffin’ and puffin’ and suckin’…
ET: “So judging from your comments and knowing my own situation, I would say that you are in deep caca.”
Nevertheless, I wish you god speed – out!

122. dick moron - January 3, 2009

120. Daily Cardiac

The blog has one and only one aim, which it pursues in a relentless fashion; and that aim is the demise of RB and the Fellowship of friends.

——————
If you truly believe this statement, why are you a major contributor to this “one and only aim” bog?

Also, I believe ex-member is the correct term.

123. nigel harris price - January 3, 2009

116 elena

Can I be quite pointed (Martial) in saying that sometimes I find your posts ‘overbearing’ or even ‘unbearable’, but NOT THAT ONE! It was beautifully scripted and stated many of the truths that artists and those-who-have-been-close-to-artists would go along with (FOF or no FOF).

Now, can I tell a little story about my artistry and how it was used in the FOF. As I was experiencing an emotional interval in the Los Angeles (emotional interval being the politically correct term for depression), W—-r S—r telephoned from Renaissance and said would I start working on designing a ‘classically based’ ceremonial set in silver. This had been my first major commission and I was only too pleased (at the time) to accept payment for materials only and denote my fabrication time as ‘third line work’. The designs were approved and I spent four weeks at the ‘big R’ making the set up to almost completion (the chalice had to be completed when I got to the Palo Alto center). It was a wonderful time and I did not mind paying for accommodation and my teaching payments while I was at Renaissance. It would be difficult to put a value on such a set and I am not sure if the FOF still has is or uses it.

My second big commission was the ‘Holy Hardware’ for the Celebration of Holy Mass by His Holiness John Paul II in San Francisco in September of 1987. Was that my False Personality and the FOF work from my Essence? I happen to concord with Elena that the Reality of One’s Grown Up Essence or Selfhood goes right through one’s life and, if one is lucky and opportunistic (in the unselfish form of the word) then one’s life will rise to a crescendo of a Work of Beauty. Thanks Elena for the prompt that created this post…..Nigel.

124. art - January 3, 2009

120 daily cardiac:

“The blog has one and only one aim, which it pursues in a relentless fashion; and that aim is the demise of RB and the Fellowship of friends.”
——-

the fof is doing a pretty good job with its own demise.

the blog is just opening the window a bit so people can see inside.

using the old “house on fire” analogy that we learned in the fof: the fof’s house hasn’t caught on fire — yet.

but i’m glad people are alerting others to the hazardous wiring within it, and the malfunctioning chimney. naive inhabitants and adjacent neighbors might like to be aware of that.

125. ton - January 3, 2009

On the one hand it’s duplicitous, outrageous and ludicrous for DC to talk about ‘complicity’ as he does in his previous post to jomo around 120…. on the other hand as a member of the fof, he is an expert on the subject. i won’t bother to quote him again here, but the good news is, when DC is able to reflect his statement about complicity back onto himself and his ‘situation’ (in ‘Jungian’ terms, if he withdraws his projections), think about all the progress he will make on his ‘spiritual journey’ ! i’m curious about what the next fof shill brings to the table when DC finally leaves the blog (?)

Thanks fofion and all, great stuff!

ps

DC says:
“The blog has one and only one aim… and that aim is the demise of RB and the Fellowship of friends.”

another hopelessly myopic statement from DC, inspired this link; here’s to the lightness of life and love, enjoy if you can:

126. lauralupa - January 3, 2009

thanks all or the words and the music
art, thanks for your words. meow!

This house is sad,
Because he’s not
inside it

Where does he hide
When someone comes,
To the front door

There’s no one, there’s no one, there’s no one, no one
There’s no one, no one, there’s no one, no one,
There’s no one, no one, there’s no one, no one,
There’s no one, no one, there’s no one to say meow, kitties,
Meow, kitties,
Meow, kitties,
Meow, kitties,
Meow

Animal Collective – Leaf house

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ylrmS6ayKv8

DC
oh, do grow up!

127. Ellen - January 3, 2009

A news flash update for the FoFion:
Falco has joined the Fellowship!
Check out his stunning entrance to the Galleria!

128. Crouching Tiger - January 3, 2009

DC. ‘Drop the body’.

DC made this memorable statement some time ago now, and it concentrates so much of the essence of the fellowship teaching, and RB’s attitudes contained within it… Today I came upon a passage from one of Gurdjieff’s meetings which shows quite clearly how far removed the fellowship is, in terms of its aims and methods, from its supposed 4th Way antecedents. It ties in with the thread started not so long ago by Ellen and Laura.

G. is talking to one of his students, Dr.B:

“Dr.B: While I am working I have the impression of the complete disappearance of my physical body. I feel two distinct things: one which is more vast than my usual proportions and of which I know the limits. The other, more internal, more limited, capable of directing me and which does not have a precise form, although it is comparable to my body.

G. That which you explain, now, does not resemble our work. If you continue, you have a fine chance of soon being a candidate for an insane asylum. It is a state which the spiritualists and the theosophists know. Stop immediately. You must not forget you are a body. You must always remember your body. You have not yet an ‘I’, no ‘me’ – never forget it. Thus only can you have a future. Later your body will have to have a real ‘I’ as any normal man should have. Now you feel the absence of body?

Dr.B: Yes.

G. Well, you must feel your body ten times more. It is not necessary to leave your body. It is necessary to strengthen it. Many people exist like you, they are psychopaths.

Dr.B: How can I intensify the sensation of my body when I feel it is leaving?

G. Wash your head in cold water, do a difficult gymnastic, thinking “I am”, “I want to be”. Think it with your body. Feel your body. Drive out all the psychopathic associations. These are sickness, weakness…

With your body you can sooner or later succeed. The head does not exist, it is the result of the body. Work with your body, and for your body.”

129. Crouching Tiger - January 3, 2009

Sorry! Dr.B’s 2nd sentence should read “I feel two distinct things: one which is more vast than my usual proportions and of which I know NOT the limits.”

130. ton - January 3, 2009

one of the greats, lived in Nevada City for 21 years, he crossed over late in 08…. if you have a spare 30 minutes or so, here’s an interview remembering UTAH PHILLIPS:

[audio src="http://media.switchpod.com/users/democracynow/ftp/dn2008-0527-1.mp3" /]

131. brucelevy - January 3, 2009

130. ton

Utah was a good man, and a friend. I’ll miss him. I saw him about a two weeks before he died.

132. brucelevy - January 3, 2009

128. Crouching Tiger

There you have it.

133. elena - January 3, 2009

Well Daily Cardiac, you at least seem to understand the mechanics of group think in the Fellowship: no one questions anybody else, everyone has to think alike, etc.

The only one that has stated the aim of closing down the Fellowship for once and for all is me and if you bother to read the blog you’ll see that people here oppose me so badly that they no longer bother to even address me. But a few have come to their own wonderful understanding that leaving the Fellowship alone is like knowing there’s a deadly trap hurting people and not doing anything about it. So hopefully you understand that no one else here has the specific aim to close the Fellowship of Friends down like I do but we’re all happily exercising our right to freedom of expression and are not at all bothered by your implications of our group thinking.

You’re right also in the fact that I’m as aggressive and rude as Greg when I can no longer tolerate your disgusting pimping. The other night while insulting you I actually cried. You managed to make me feel so frustrated. But I’m O.K. now. It is normal that you would flip into pimping right after disavowing the older student and frightfully afraid of having sounded a little bit genuine for five minutes. Of course, I also think you are not even in the Fellowship but a hired pimp with a few ideas of contradicting statements because you’ve got no soul and without a soul you won’t buy us even if we’re free!

Allow me to make a correction:

The integrity of the individual is IN no way disconnected to the integrity of the community of mankind. We are One or we are not. “To be or not to be! That, is still the question!”

134. brucelevy - January 3, 2009

Douchebag.

I noticed the other day Craig Docktor was on here and you blew the chance to question him about his OH Store story that you didn’t quite believe. You constantly blow hot air out of your ass but when a opportunity presents itself for the truth you remain silent.

I bet if you address him even now he’ll catch it and answer. Go ahead schmuck, let’s see what you’re made of. I’m sure he can accurately describe the people who were talking. I’m sure in your quest to awaken you value every chance to see how full of shit you are.

135. brucelevy - January 3, 2009

He even left his contact info for his job in OH.

136. brucelevy - January 3, 2009

Look him up at Thousand Trails if you’re too much of a pussy to do it on the blog. I’m sure you’ll get right back to us.

137. nigel harris price - January 3, 2009

134/135/136 brucelevy

And a Happy New Year to you, Cut Loose Bruce!…..Nigel.

138. brucelevy - January 3, 2009

137. nigel harris price

And a Happy New Year to you Nige.

139. Yesri Baba - January 3, 2009

When I read one of DC’s posts I feel like I am eating a bowl of shit.
Is it just me?

140. Daily Cardiac - January 4, 2009

Lauralupa – 84:

“You tend to forget that the fact that we were all looking for a school doesn’t mean that we really found one.”

This is true. It is also true that there are around 15,000 ex members who were presumably looking for a real school and no one among them has reported back that they have found what the FoF claims to be, an esoteric school of awakening in the tradition of past schools.

The fact that no ex member has found another organization claiming to be the above does not alone validate the FoF as one, but this fact certainly does nothing to take away from the FoF’s claims to be that one school either.

141. brucelevy - January 4, 2009

139. Yesri Baba

Yup, it’s just you.

love ya man.

142. brucelevy - January 4, 2009

“The fact that no ex member has found another organization claiming to be the above…”

You’re just a cornucopia of specious assumptions.

143. elena - January 4, 2009

Ah Daily Cardiac,

You who have worked for so long in the non expression of negative emotions I challenge you to answer the following question: Where does the non expression of negative emotions lead and what is the process to that?

It is a simple question. A work question. I’ll take your answer. Just answer sincerely.

The answer is not in the work books. The work books were fragments meant to not give such answers so that no one could abuse them dogmatically. Unfortunately the little they gave was also equally abused. The answers were meant for each person to find them. I’ll take your answer. But if you don’t answer, I’ll confirm that your blah, blah, blah around your personal work is as poor as your blah, blah about the Fellowship.

144. dick moron - January 4, 2009

140. Daily Cardiac

Now your posts are sounding like the weak barking of those dumb little dogs Robert had running around his place. Irritating, frightened little yaps that are backed by no real bite.
Seriously, you should listen to Older Student. Your writing makes you and the FOF look silly.
And god damn it, us the hyphen in ex-member. Ex is not a word. Bad grammar ain’t very Fellowship-like.

145. oolalajp - January 4, 2009

from DC:

Daily Cardiac – January 1, 2009

The obvious reason is that you valued knowing yourself enough to stay, and you valued applying that knowledge in a Work environment.

COMMENT: there is no such thing as a “Work environment”; there is only environment, work or no work.

You stayed because you were receiving what you came for.

COMMENT: i don’t know why she stayed, but i stayed because i “thought” i was getting what i came for and because i was scared to leave (guilt, shame, etc). it’s taken many years and much experience to now know that what i was looking for was inside me the whole time.

Staying on course is difficult in general and in the FoF staying is made especially difficult in order to keep the school at the level of the fastest students.

COMMENT: there is nothing to keep and nothing to loose.

I think the big lure for many ex members is that after a while they think they have all the knowledge…

COMMENT: anyone who thinks they have all of anything is deluding themselves.

…what will prevent me from using what I learned “on the outside?”

COMMENT: there is no “outside”.

I don’t expect you will consider the possibility that you played a part in why the school ultimately did not work for you.

COMMENT: are schools supposed to work for people?

But it is telling that neither you nor anyone else here, in the thousands of comments posted, has so much as pondered that as a possibility.

COMMENT: the possibility i’m pondering is that you don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about. i know i don’t.

146. whalerider - January 4, 2009

Daily Challenge:
“The fact that no ex-member has found another organization claiming to be the above does not alone validate the FoF as one, but this fact certainly does nothing to take away from the FoF’s claims to be that one school either.”

What makes you think that after leaving the Fellowship anyone was looking for another orgainzation?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

147. oolalajp - January 4, 2009

Daily Challenge:
“The fact that no ex-member has found another organization claiming to be the above does not alone validate the FoF as one, but this fact certainly does nothing to take away from the FoF’s claims to be that one school either.”

adding to whalerider’s comments/questions:

or what makes you think that any such “esoteric school of awakening in the tradition of past schools” even exists? because somebody told you you are in one? who cares if such things exist or not. labels, labels, labels.

what if it’s all just, well, you know…a fig-mint.

148. fofblogmoderator - January 4, 2009

145 is newly moderated

149. nigel harris price - January 4, 2009

To 144/145/146/147

I think the important thing is that we all work and move on within any environment in which we find ourselves…..Nigel.

150. oolalajp - January 4, 2009

to 149

cheers. the environment within which we find ourselves is our school.

151. Panorea - January 4, 2009

The question is what are you really looking for when you are looking for a “school”?

There are many answers but it is important to find one’s own one.

It is important to drop all assumptions and look at oneself and one’s needs and fears.

Cults and charlatans and fake “leaders” thrive on one’s hidden needs and fears.

By joining a “school” one manages to hide more. By joining a cult disguised as a “school for awakening” one ends up trying to prove to others that he was right about the decision. You are engaged in a game of running further away from your self. You spend your time trying to cover up for Robert’s nonsense, for Ouspensky’s intellectual puzzles, for Girard’s persuasive explanations of Robert’s new tricks. When do you find time to look at yourself and live and be present to your own life (If you want to use this terminology).

It is fine to make mistakes. Mistakes are part of the process of growing up and they help you to see further. If you are afraid to admit your mistakes (like the mistake of joining a cult), you end up adding piles of lies on your tender shoulders.

You do not have to be perfect.
Even you DC, you do not need to be perfect. It is so sad seeing you struggling and sweating to justify you are right and everything works for you. Try to take care of the little Daily, he is somewhere asking for your attention daily.

152. dragon - January 4, 2009

For All:

This is a link to the BLOG/archive of Perry Bulwer Canada.
(AN ARCHIVE OF NEWS ITEMS RELATED TO CHILD ABUSE OR NEGLECT, OR INFRINGEMENT OF CHILDREN’S RIGHTS, IN A RELIGIOUS CONTEXT. Copyrighted materials appearing on this blog are provided solely for the Fair Use purposes of research and education)

You will find in his archive the article of Ryan McCarthy in the Appeal-Democrat, California:

http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2008/08/critics-call-fellowship-of-friends-cult.html

post a comment if you like it!

Profile of :

Perry Bulwer
• Branche: Recht
• Standort: Kanada
Lawyer, Human rights advocate.
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_profile/bulwer_perry.asp

153. lauralupa - January 4, 2009

DC
“The fact that no ex member has found another organization claiming to be the above does not alone validate the FoF as one, but this fact certainly does nothing to take away from the FoF’s claims to be that one school either.”

Just to add a personal note to the other fine answers…
My meetings and experiences with Buddhist Tibetan teachers lead me to believe that their living lineage would be immensely more qualified to hold the title of “esoteric school of awakening in the tradition of past schools”. And I am not implying that they would be the only ones…
Interestingly enough though, these revered Lamas seem to make a point of never declaring themselves “conscious” or “enlightened” beings, as humility and self-effacement are viewed as valuable virtues in their tradition.

154. Daily Cardiac - January 4, 2009

WhaleRider – 145:

“What makes you think that after leaving the Fellowship anyone was looking for another orgainzation?”

If I were someone looking for a conscious school and I found a cult instead I think I would continue the search, but with more resolve to find the real thing.

There are countless stories of people being rejected from realizing their dreams; whether it’s a book they are trying to publish, or a person they want to meet or a career field they want to pursue, and each time they are told no, or rejected, they try harder until they succeed. This happens fairly often in the world.

I think it would be the same for someone looking for something as important as a school. If they found a cult first eventually they would leave and keep looking for a school. If finding a cult turned them off to schools I have to question the sincerity of their original search.

So the fact that not one in 15,000 has reported back saying they have found the real thing leaves us with certain conclusions.

1) Either they continue to look as I write these words but have still not found one; which supports the FoF claims that schools are rare on earth.

2) They were never really looking for a school; but just joined the FoF because their mate or friend or relative joined and they finally realized they were not interested in what schools offer.

3) Their thirst was not that deep so they drank to their fill and were satisfied and left.

4) They are among the ones who feel they have plumbed the depth of the FoF and have therefore earned the right to graduate. The only problem with this category is what did they graduate from, a cult or a school? If a cult what on earth did they earn through graduation? If a school, who gave them, as students, the right to proclaim when they graduated?

In ordinary academic schools the pupil is not the one to say whether they graduated but the officials of the school decide that. And officials of spiritual schools (higher forces) seem to suggest that one graduates when one drops the body of this present life.

5) Schools do not exist; they are a myth perpetrated on the public by GIG & PDO

6) Deep down people believe they indeed found a school in the FoF but since that did not turn out well for them they do not have the motivation to look for another one and repeat the same process; if indeed they think there is another one to find.

At the end of our roving on this subject we are still left with the fact that no other organization has been found that claims to be a school of awakening in the tradition of other esoteric schools of the past.

155. The FOFion - January 4, 2009

Breaking News: Burton Says ‘I Do Not Know’

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — In a dramatic shift from earlier policies, Fellowship of Friends CEO Robert Burton addressed the company during Sunday’s weekly meeting and said, “I do not know.”

In recent years, the FOF Corporation has devoted its resources to studying and researching ancient hieroglyphics, ancient texts, and ancient art. The goal of the project is to reveal esoteric symbolism and profound hidden meanings. FOF has focused its efforts on ancient Egypt but has also studied Maya glyphs, the ancient Chinese, and other cultures.

Now, for the first time, a large research project in Egypt has apparently yielded nothing.

“We simply don’t know what this means,” Burton said during Sunday’s meeting, as he held up numerous images that date back to the 7th century B.C. “We can speculate, but it’s really unclear at this point. Perhaps they mean nothing.”

Burton’s change in policy is drawing mixed reactions from his employees and customers.

“I’m disillusioned,” said one long-time customer and employee. “I thought he knew everything. I thought he knew what every picture meant. And I thought all pictures had profound meaning. I’m bummed.”

Other reactions were more positive.

“Well, it seems like a more thoughtful and scholarly approach to studying history and archaeology,” said another long-time customer. “It acknowledges the possibility that other meanings might be found in these things, or even — as shocking as it may sound — that the meaning is not so profound at all, or that there’s meaning in them whatsoever.”

During the meeting, Burton also shifted his stance on several other pressing issues — including his predicted date for California’s fall into the ocean, his predicted date for nuclear war to end civilization, the FOF’s role in building an ark for a new civilization, and most importantly the fates of those who cancel their FOF subscriptions. On all of these questions, he simply said: “I do not know.”

The meeting ended in stunned silence.

156. nigel harris price - January 4, 2009

153 Daily Cardiac

You obviously did not read whalerider’s quote before you made the response. You seem to think that everyone who left the FOF immendiately went in search of another ‘conscious school’. And you also seem to think that awakening is only possible in ‘schools’. So what about the 44 conscious beings? How many of them were part of an organization? Indeed, Whitman himself said “Knowledge is not ultimately learned in schools”. Response?…..Nigel.

157. Panorea - January 4, 2009

DC

DECENCY is the word you are looking for. That’s why other organizations do not call themselves eternal, unique, ancient schools of awakening.

158. elena - January 4, 2009

DC :
In ordinary academic schools the pupil is not the one to say whether they graduated but the officials of the school decide that. And officials of spiritual schools (higher forces) seem to suggest that one graduates when one drops the body of this present life.

Rolling with laughter at the fact that you’ve lost fourteen thousand members and continues….. You and the other officials of the FOF must be having a hard time trying to figure out who’s going to support you after thirty years of exploiting others.

DC: At the end of our roving on this subject we are still left with the fact that no other organization has been found that claims to be a school of awakening in the tradition of other esoteric schools of the past.

I haven’t addressed this question before because who would have the confidence to join any group after being so badly damaged in one? The problem with Cults like yours is that they damage too many avenues for the people that get involved. Treat yourself:

Cults in our Midst

Leaving the Cult

Jossey-Bass Publishers San Franciso
By Margaret Thaler Singer (with Janja Lalich)

Chapter 11: Leaving the Cult / Recovery

Why it’s hard to leave.

Deception in the recruitment process and throughout membership
Debilitation, because of the hours, the degree if commitment, the psychological pressures, and the inner constriction and strife.
Dependency, as a result of being cut off from the outside world in many ways
Dread, because of beliefs instilled by the cult that a person who leaves will find no real life on the outside
Desensitization, so that things that once have troubled them no longer do (for example, learning that money collected from fund-raising is supporting the leader’s lavish lifestyle rather than the cause for which it was given, or seeing children badly abused or even killed.)
Psychiatrists, psychologists, and psychiatric social workers dealing with cult members suggested behavioral changes they labeled the cult indoctrinee syndrome. These changes included:
Sudden, drastic alteration of the individual’s value hierarchy, including abandonment of previous academic and career goals. These changes are sudden and catastrophic, rather than the gradual ones that result form maturation or education.
Reduction of cognitive flexibility and adaptability. The cult member substitutes stereotyped cult responses for her or his own.
Narrowing and blunting of affect. Love feelings are repressed. The cult member appears emotionally flatter and less vital than before.
Regression of behavior to childlike levels. The follower becomes dependent on the cult leader and accepts the leader’s decisions uncritically.
Physical changes. These changes often include weight loss and deterioration in physical appearance and expression.
Possible pathological symptoms. Such symptoms can include altered states of consciousness.
Deprogramming – that is, providing members with information about the cult and showing them how their own decision-making power had been taken away from them.
Exit counseling identifies the educational process that takes place in efforts to get cult members to reevaluate their membership. In fact “deprogramming” is in many ways a more accurate description of the process, but since that word is now tinged with memories of the early snatchings and restraint, most people are reluctant to use it.
Mental Health Professionals and Clergy as Counselors.

Families who call upon these clergy or mental health professionals are almost always told some variant of “It’s just a passing stage; he will outgrow it,” or “There is nothing to be done; she is forty years old (or seventy).” Because in most cases these professionals don’t recognize how intense influence, social pressure, and cult interactions affect cult members, they simply turn away or misdirect the family.
Exit Counseling Versus Therapy

From my interviews with many former cult members – some who have received exit counseling that participation in an exit counseling session is far better than ordinary psychiatric or psychological treatment, both for assisting people who are in cults to evaluate whether they want to stay in, and for helping those who have already left but are having trouble understanding and handling what went on during their cult days and the types of problems they are experiencing in the aftermath of their cult involvement.
* * *
From the very early days of my work with ex-cult members, I have noticed that those who have been deprogrammed or counseled out make the easiest, best, and quickest returns to normal life. Other professionals have found the same thing, which suggests that the education and information provided by exit counseling may be extremely valuable, helping those leaving cults to understand their own situation and feelings and to adapt to life in the regular world.
Chapter 12: Recovery; Coming out of the Pseudopersonality

Just as cults vary greatly, so do their members, their after-effects, and the duration of those effects. Yet those who help former cult members have seen certain patterns in the types of trauma, damage, and emotional and cognitive difficulties. This has been true for former members of a variety of cults and groups that use thought-reform processes.
Not everyone who is exposed to thought-reform processes is successfully manipulated, however; nor does everyone respond with major reactive symptoms. An evaluation of what a person may experience after belonging to a cult requires study of the group’s particular practices, social and psychological pressures, and conditions. Nevertheless, groups using thought-reform processes can be usefully classed into two main categories: those that primarily use dissociative techniques and those that primarily use emotional arousal techniques. Each category produces characteristic negative psychological effects.
Former members of groups relying mainly on the use of dissociative techniques – meditation, trance states, guided imagery, past-lives regression, and hyperventilation – have tended to exhibit these aftereffects:
Relaxation-induced anxiety and tics
Panic attacks
Cognitive inefficiencies
Dissociative states
Recurring bizarre content (such as orange fog)
Worry over the reality of “past lives”
Eastern based cults and New Age groups doing past-lives work and channeling fall into this first category.
Former members of groups using primarily intense aversive emotional arousal techniques – guilt and fear induction, strict discipline and punishments, excessive criticism and blame – have tended to experience these aftereffects:

Guilt
Shame
Self-blaming attitudes
Fears and paranoia
Excessive doubts
Panic attacks
Bible-based, political, racial, occult, and psychotherapy cults typically fit into this category.
However, although cults tend to focus on one category or the other, they often use a multitude of techniques and do not restrict them selves to one or the other of these major groupings. For example, the large group awareness training programs and some psychotherapy cults use both kinds of techniques. Moreover, a group relying heavily on meditation, trance, and dissociative techniques is also likely to include elements of intense emotional arousal devices, and the reverse is also true. Some of the most intense emotional arousal responses can be produced by guided imagery, speaking in toungues, and other trance-inducing procedures. Thus it is important not to regard this heuristic division too rigidly, since the techniques readily overlap and can produce a range of responses.
Some aftereffects may be experienced by former members regardless of the kind of cult they were in. These general aftereffects are:

Depression and a sense of alienation
Loneliness
Low self-esteem and low self-confidence
Phobic like constriction of social contacts
Fear of joining groups or making a commitment
Distrust of professional services
Distrust of self in making good choices
Problems in reactivating a value system to live by
Recovering from Cult Aftereffects

Once out of a cult, former cult members, although now free, face the challenge of reentering the society they once rejected. The array of necessary adjustments can be summed up as coming out of the pseudopersonality, or as other have termed it, dropping the synthetic identity or reuniting with the split-off old self. An additional helpful way to view the many problems faced by former cult members is to cluster them into five major areas of adjustment: practical, psychological-emotional, cognitive, social-personal, and philosophical-attitudinal. Former cult members must:
Address practical issues related to daily living
Face Psychological and emotional stirrings that can cause intense agonies for a while
Deal with cognitive inefficiencies
Develop a new social network and repair old personal relationships, if possible
Examine the philosophical and attitudinal adopted during cult days
It is through dealing with all these areas that the former cult member gains insight into his or her experience and, over time, sheds the cult pseudopersonality.

159. elena - January 4, 2009

DC. Who would even consider to look for anything else after being hurt so deeply? Those that run out looking for something can’t heal the dependency from before and just replace it for another. Like running from a bad marriage into a worse one.

What I wonder is what are you trying to prove with this idiocy? That nothing is as good as the Fellowship so join the Fellowship anyway? You’ve got some nerve dude, why we even bother to answer you just proves how ridiculous we ourselves are.

You haven’t answered the multiple questions but I suppose you are not here to answer question but to deviate major issues about the Fellowship into why members have not joined another School yet and other such bullshit, playing around with the people here in the same way Robert plays yo-yo with the members knowing that as long as he keeps them busy, he’s got them under his sleeve.

It is amazing what people are willing and unwilling to indulge in!

Cults in our Midst

Leaving the Cult

Jossey-Bass Publishers San Franciso
By Margaret Thaler Singer (with Janja Lalich)

Chapter 11: Leaving the Cult / Recovery

Why it’s hard to leave.

Deception in the recruitment process and throughout membership
Debilitation, because of the hours, the degree if commitment, the psychological pressures, and the inner constriction and strife.
Dependency, as a result of being cut off from the outside world in many ways
Dread, because of beliefs instilled by the cult that a person who leaves will find no real life on the outside
Desensitization, so that things that once have troubled them no longer do (for example, learning that money collected from fund-raising is supporting the leader’s lavish lifestyle rather than the cause for which it was given, or seeing children badly abused or even killed.)
Psychiatrists, psychologists, and psychiatric social workers dealing with cult members suggested behavioral changes they labeled the cult indoctrinee syndrome. These changes included:
Sudden, drastic alteration of the individual’s value hierarchy, including abandonment of previous academic and career goals. These changes are sudden and catastrophic, rather than the gradual ones that result form maturation or education.
Reduction of cognitive flexibility and adaptability. The cult member substitutes stereotyped cult responses for her or his own.
Narrowing and blunting of affect. Love feelings are repressed. The cult member appears emotionally flatter and less vital than before.
Regression of behavior to childlike levels. The follower becomes dependent on the cult leader and accepts the leader’s decisions uncritically.
Physical changes. These changes often include weight loss and deterioration in physical appearance and expression.
Possible pathological symptoms. Such symptoms can include altered states of consciousness.
Deprogramming – that is, providing members with information about the cult and showing them how their own decision-making power had been taken away from them.
Exit counseling identifies the educational process that takes place in efforts to get cult members to reevaluate their membership. In fact “deprogramming” is in many ways a more accurate description of the process, but since that word is now tinged with memories of the early snatchings and restraint, most people are reluctant to use it.
Mental Health Professionals and Clergy as Counselors.

Families who call upon these clergy or mental health professionals are almost always told some variant of “It’s just a passing stage; he will outgrow it,” or “There is nothing to be done; she is forty years old (or seventy).” Because in most cases these professionals don’t recognize how intense influence, social pressure, and cult interactions affect cult members, they simply turn away or misdirect the family.
Exit Counseling Versus Therapy

From my interviews with many former cult members – some who have received exit counseling that participation in an exit counseling session is far better than ordinary psychiatric or psychological treatment, both for assisting people who are in cults to evaluate whether they want to stay in, and for helping those who have already left but are having trouble understanding and handling what went on during their cult days and the types of problems they are experiencing in the aftermath of their cult involvement.
* * *
From the very early days of my work with ex-cult members, I have noticed that those who have been deprogrammed or counseled out make the easiest, best, and quickest returns to normal life. Other professionals have found the same thing, which suggests that the education and information provided by exit counseling may be extremely valuable, helping those leaving cults to understand their own situation and feelings and to adapt to life in the regular world.
Chapter 12: Recovery; Coming out of the Pseudopersonality

Just as cults vary greatly, so do their members, their after-effects, and the duration of those effects. Yet those who help former cult members have seen certain patterns in the types of trauma, damage, and emotional and cognitive difficulties. This has been true for former members of a variety of cults and groups that use thought-reform processes.
Not everyone who is exposed to thought-reform processes is successfully manipulated, however; nor does everyone respond with major reactive symptoms. An evaluation of what a person may experience after belonging to a cult requires study of the group’s particular practices, social and psychological pressures, and conditions. Nevertheless, groups using thought-reform processes can be usefully classed into two main categories: those that primarily use dissociative techniques and those that primarily use emotional arousal techniques. Each category produces characteristic negative psychological effects.
Former members of groups relying mainly on the use of dissociative techniques – meditation, trance states, guided imagery, past-lives regression, and hyperventilation – have tended to exhibit these aftereffects:
Relaxation-induced anxiety and tics
Panic attacks
Cognitive inefficiencies
Dissociative states
Recurring bizarre content (such as orange fog)
Worry over the reality of “past lives”
Eastern based cults and New Age groups doing past-lives work and channeling fall into this first category.
Former members of groups using primarily intense aversive emotional arousal techniques – guilt and fear induction, strict discipline and punishments, excessive criticism and blame – have tended to experience these aftereffects:

Guilt
Shame
Self-blaming attitudes
Fears and paranoia
Excessive doubts
Panic attacks
Bible-based, political, racial, occult, and psychotherapy cults typically fit into this category.
However, although cults tend to focus on one category or the other, they often use a multitude of techniques and do not restrict them selves to one or the other of these major groupings. For example, the large group awareness training programs and some psychotherapy cults use both kinds of techniques. Moreover, a group relying heavily on meditation, trance, and dissociative techniques is also likely to include elements of intense emotional arousal devices, and the reverse is also true. Some of the most intense emotional arousal responses can be produced by guided imagery, speaking in toungues, and other trance-inducing procedures. Thus it is important not to regard this heuristic division too rigidly, since the techniques readily overlap and can produce a range of responses.
Some aftereffects may be experienced by former members regardless of the kind of cult they were in. These general aftereffects are:

Depression and a sense of alienation
Loneliness
Low self-esteem and low self-confidence
Phobic like constriction of social contacts
Fear of joining groups or making a commitment
Distrust of professional services
Distrust of self in making good choices
Problems in reactivating a value system to live by
Recovering from Cult Aftereffects

Once out of a cult, former cult members, although now free, face the challenge of reentering the society they once rejected. The array of necessary adjustments can be summed up as coming out of the pseudopersonality, or as other have termed it, dropping the synthetic identity or reuniting with the split-off old self. An additional helpful way to view the many problems faced by former cult members is to cluster them into five major areas of adjustment: practical, psychological-emotional, cognitive, social-personal, and philosophical-attitudinal. Former cult members must:
Address practical issues related to daily living
Face Psychological and emotional stirrings that can cause intense agonies for a while
Deal with cognitive inefficiencies
Develop a new social network and repair old personal relationships, if possible
Examine the philosophical and attitudinal adopted during cult days
It is through dealing with all these areas that the former cult member gains insight into his or her experience and, over time, sheds the cult pseudopersonality.

Now for some dancing to get the moving centre back into shape! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2vNEXqHo_o

160. Crouching Tiger - January 4, 2009

DC.

“So the fact that not one in 15,000 has reported back saying they have found the real thing leaves us with certain conclusions.”

I think your deafness to people’s actual responses is quite worrying. I have found ‘the real thing’ as far as the 4th Way/Gurdjieff teaching is concerned (and made this obvious in many posts), and I can recall others who have mentioned Sufi groups and Advaita teachers. Take the wax out of your ears.

Nigel’s point is also valid. Many of those among the ’44 conscious beings’ did not ‘attend school’, to the best of our knowledge. Your own teacher did not attend any school.

161. No Quiet Zone - January 4, 2009

Taking a hint from the fofion at about 154, I’ll list the things that I do know, and that I don’t know:

* I DO know that the Fellowship of Friends is a “pseudo-religious confidence game and pyramid scheme run by a malignant narcissist. You will be exploited for large amounts of money, thousands of hours of free labor, and sexual favors before being ostracized after you refuse further exploitation!” So maybe it’s just me, but I think we can forget the notion that the FOF might be “a conscious school.”

* I don’t know how many people who joined the fof were actually “looking for a school,” but I do know that ALL of them were told they should be “looking for a school.”

* I don’t know what a “school” actually is, or if any schools have really existed as defined by G. and O. All comments on this are speculation in my opinion. I can know that certain organizations have existed, and that these organization talk about certain things, and do certain things. But I don’t know if there are “schools” being guided by “higher forces.” If I tell others or tell myself that I know this, it’s a lie.

* I don’t know if it’s a good idea to “look for a school.”

* If schools exist, as defined by the fourth way, I don’t know how necessary they are for our spiritual growth or enlightenment. I’ve been told they’re essential, and I’ve always sensed the benefits of getting “help,” but I’ve verified nothing about “needing a school.”

* I don’t know that the earth itself is not a type of school, and that we are all students within it.

* Repeat: I DO know that the Fellowship of Friends is a “pseudo-religious confidence game and pyramid scheme run by a malignant narcissist. You will be exploited for large amounts of money, thousands of hours of free labor, and sexual favors before being ostracized after you refuse further exploitation!”

About the FOF, this last item is the most important thing that I know.

162. elena - January 4, 2009

Schools today are not necessary Daily Cardiac although lots of people sharing and working together with their different points of view and experiences is a beautiful thing. As this blog proves, schools are not necessary for that. There is enough knowledge. And some great Teachers believe that the individual of today is mature enough to trust his own self and ACT. Obeying, submitting, is not for the individual of today. There are already great systems out in the world for anyone to work on his or herself at least in the Fourth Way. Other ways might need particular teachers but in the Fourth Way, LIFE is one’s teacher and practicing the very simple ideas is enough. No one can replace one’s own effort and one learns through that effort as one goes along. In this regard, it depends what your imaginary picture of what you want to achieve is. In the Fellowship Cult, the imaginary picture is an unreachable goal of never being good enough so that you can support Bobby and Company for a few lifetimes but the Fourth Way is not about isolating yourself from life. Living life is really a very simple thing. There is nothing wrong with the ideals of almost any society, the problem is that we are all far, too far from those ideals. When one realizes that no one in his right heart, is expecting one to invent anything new, that the goals have been there since the beginning and that we are just in a particular moment in the process, playing the part that is required from you is not all that difficult. Life is too beautiful to waste on pretending to be more than one is: another simple, willing, human being, with nothing to prove and nothing to be ashamed of. It is not one’s self that one has to take care of, which is the obsession of the Fellowship as if humans were some sort of pigs, there are hundreds of things worth investing one’s self in when there is enough of one’s self to trust.

163. elena - January 4, 2009

Chapter 11: Leaving the Cult / Recovery

Why it’s hard to leave.

Deception in the recruitment process and throughout membership
Debilitation, because of the hours, the degree if commitment, the psychological pressures, and the inner constriction and strife.
Dependency, as a result of being cut off from the outside world in many ways
Dread, because of beliefs instilled by the cult that a person who leaves will find no real life on the outside
Desensitization, so that things that once have troubled them no longer do (for example, learning that money collected from fund-raising is supporting the leader’s lavish lifestyle rather than the cause for which it was given, or seeing children badly abused or even killed.)
Psychiatrists, psychologists, and psychiatric social workers dealing with cult members suggested behavioral changes they labeled the cult indoctrinee syndrome. These changes included:
Sudden, drastic alteration of the individual’s value hierarchy, including abandonment of previous academic and career goals. These changes are sudden and catastrophic, rather than the gradual ones that result form maturation or education.
Reduction of cognitive flexibility and adaptability. The cult member substitutes stereotyped cult responses for her or his own.
Narrowing and blunting of affect. Love feelings are repressed. The cult member appears emotionally flatter and less vital than before.
Regression of behavior to childlike levels. The follower becomes dependent on the cult leader and accepts the leader’s decisions uncritically.
Physical changes. These changes often include weight loss and deterioration in physical appearance and expression.
Possible pathological symptoms. Such symptoms can include altered states of consciousness.
Deprogramming – that is, providing members with information about the cult and showing them how their own decision-making power had been taken away from them.
Exit counseling identifies the educational process that takes place in efforts to get cult members to reevaluate their membership. In fact “deprogramming” is in many ways a more accurate description of the process, but since that word is now tinged with memories of the early snatchings and restraint, most people are reluctant to use it.
Mental Health Professionals and Clergy as Counselors.

Families who call upon these clergy or mental health professionals are almost always told some variant of “It’s just a passing stage; he will outgrow it,” or “There is nothing to be done; she is forty years old (or seventy).” Because in most cases these professionals don’t recognize how intense influence, social pressure, and cult interactions affect cult members, they simply turn away or misdirect the family.
Exit Counseling Versus Therapy

From my interviews with many former cult members – some who have received exit counseling that participation in an exit counseling session is far better than ordinary psychiatric or psychological treatment, both for assisting people who are in cults to evaluate whether they want to stay in, and for helping those who have already left but are having trouble understanding and handling what went on during their cult days and the types of problems they are experiencing in the aftermath of their cult involvement.
* * *
From the very early days of my work with ex-cult members, I have noticed that those who have been deprogrammed or counseled out make the easiest, best, and quickest returns to normal life. Other professionals have found the same thing, which suggests that the education and information provided by exit counseling may be extremely valuable, helping those leaving cults to understand their own situation and feelings and to adapt to life in the regular world.

164. elena - January 4, 2009

From Margaret Taller Singer (Previous and this post)

Chapter 12: Recovery; Coming out of the Pseudopersonality

Just as cults vary greatly, so do their members, their after-effects, and the duration of those effects. Yet those who help former cult members have seen certain patterns in the types of trauma, damage, and emotional and cognitive difficulties. This has been true for former members of a variety of cults and groups that use thought-reform processes.
Not everyone who is exposed to thought-reform processes is successfully manipulated, however; nor does everyone respond with major reactive symptoms. An evaluation of what a person may experience after belonging to a cult requires study of the group’s particular practices, social and psychological pressures, and conditions. Nevertheless, groups using thought-reform processes can be usefully classed into two main categories: those that primarily use dissociative techniques and those that primarily use emotional arousal techniques. Each category produces characteristic negative psychological effects.
Former members of groups relying mainly on the use of dissociative techniques – meditation, trance states, guided imagery, past-lives regression, and hyperventilation – have tended to exhibit these aftereffects:
Relaxation-induced anxiety and tics
Panic attacks
Cognitive inefficiencies
Dissociative states
Recurring bizarre content (such as orange fog)
Worry over the reality of “past lives”
Eastern based cults and New Age groups doing past-lives work and channeling fall into this first category.
Former members of groups using primarily intense aversive emotional arousal techniques – guilt and fear induction, strict discipline and punishments, excessive criticism and blame – have tended to experience these aftereffects:

Guilt
Shame
Self-blaming attitudes
Fears and paranoia
Excessive doubts
Panic attacks
Bible-based, political, racial, occult, and psychotherapy cults typically fit into this category.
However, although cults tend to focus on one category or the other, they often use a multitude of techniques and do not restrict them selves to one or the other of these major groupings. For example, the large group awareness training programs and some psychotherapy cults use both kinds of techniques. Moreover, a group relying heavily on meditation, trance, and dissociative techniques is also likely to include elements of intense emotional arousal devices, and the reverse is also true. Some of the most intense emotional arousal responses can be produced by guided imagery, speaking in toungues, and other trance-inducing procedures. Thus it is important not to regard this heuristic division too rigidly, since the techniques readily overlap and can produce a range of responses.
Some aftereffects may be experienced by former members regardless of the kind of cult they were in. These general aftereffects are:

Depression and a sense of alienation
Loneliness
Low self-esteem and low self-confidence
Phobic like constriction of social contacts
Fear of joining groups or making a commitment
Distrust of professional services
Distrust of self in making good choices
Problems in reactivating a value system to live by
Recovering from Cult Aftereffects

Once out of a cult, former cult members, although now free, face the challenge of reentering the society they once rejected. The array of necessary adjustments can be summed up as coming out of the pseudopersonality, or as other have termed it, dropping the synthetic identity or reuniting with the split-off old self. An additional helpful way to view the many problems faced by former cult members is to cluster them into five major areas of adjustment: practical, psychological-emotional, cognitive, social-personal, and philosophical-attitudinal. Former cult members must:
Address practical issues related to daily living
Face Psychological and emotional stirrings that can cause intense agonies for a while
Deal with cognitive inefficiencies
Develop a new social network and repair old personal relationships, if possible
Examine the philosophical and attitudinal adopted during cult days
It is through dealing with all these areas that the former cult member gains insight into his or her experience and, over time, sheds the cult pseudopersonality.

165. Vena - January 4, 2009

“So the fact that not one in 15,000 has reported back saying they have found the real thing leaves us with certain conclusions.”

You haven’t been listening.

166. Yesri Baba - January 4, 2009

153

7) They looked around and saw a number of retarded douche bags like you and said to themselves: “School schmool, I’m getting the fuck out of here before I get that stupid!”

(Hey Dick, is it douche-bag, douchebag or douche bag?)

167. peter - January 4, 2009

DC
“In ordinary academic schools the pupil is not the one to say whether they graduated but the officials of the school decide that. And officials of spiritual schools (higher forces) seem to suggest that one graduates when one drops the body of this present life.”

>> Everybody wants costumers for live.<<

DC you are such an naive fool. And everything that is true, honest and beautiful is so far away from you and your sick tribe.

What your silly leader calls influence C is just the voice of his own sick and pervert uncontrollable desires.

He just want money, power and sex.

What makes him special is not that he is a higher being but that he is a lower being.

Are you so dumb that you can not see this.

I pray for the people that are in you tribe that do not know what is going on there.

Those who do know and stay in are lost souls.

You DC, are asleep.

You DC, are a sheep.

You DC, are in imagination.

You DC, are a victim.

You DC, are a cultmember.

You DC are a man without balls.

You DC, justify evil.

You DC, are lost .. and on you way to hell

168. Old Fish in the Sea - January 4, 2009

There is a significant difference between the process of learning from another and being dominated by another.

Freedom from the dominance of others may seem like vanity to those that feel that the dominance is appropriate.

Dogma may be harmful to personal evolution and it can be limiting to have any individual or group tell you how to live, how to behave, and what to believe. The harm is proportional to the amount of fear and guilt associated with the dogma. This is especially true when there are lies (speaking about things that cannot be known) and corruption associated with the teaching. When looking for a school, it is important to avoid organizations that teach untruths and use the untruths to promote fear, following and blind acceptance (essentially sleep).

Robert has continually made statements that time has shown to be false. Those that have stayed for a long time know this to be true. He has contradicted himself, always maintaining that he is completely sure of himself. He has been wrong at great expense to individuals and the Fellowship. He has promoted guilt in others for activities that he allows in himself. He has discouraged independent thinking and has expelled a number of people for not idolizing him or asking sincere questions about his dubious behavior. He has demonstrated bad judgment with respect to his sexual exploits. This blog documents numerous examples.

Personal Growth is the development of a sense of responsibility for individual understanding and setting a positive direction in life. Responsibility may involve passing through the initial response and making an effort to go deeper. It is seeing the mistake of idolizing a person, particularly when that person sets up harmful divisions, consistently displays inadequate judgment and misuses others for his own benefit under the guise of teaching them. Giving away responsibility desensitizes one to personal growth requirements and an individual sense of right and wrong.

Personal growth is not finding and being able to call up a comfortable, selfish state through some mantra or sequence. These states are nice, but are not the same as growth and can be harmful if they are used to block out uncomfortable perceptions.

There are millions of people that think they have found a conscious school (though they might not use those words) with a connection to higher influence (Christians, Followers of Maharishi, Buddhists, Taoists) . Have they found a school or have they found a way of looking at life supported by a sense of connectedness and group-think that dampens their own inquisitiveness, initiative, and lessens their openness and sensitivity to viewing life and the moment? Have they not merely set up walls that confine their thinking and sense of good and bad? The answer may be mixed.

Knowledge is important, but knowledge is different from dominance.

It is interesting and sometimes difficult to live life without dogma, without a set of ideas that give some imaginary meaning and block individual perspective.

The greatest thing that I learned from the Fellowship relates to the dangers of group-think: of following, and of supporting corruption and how easy it is to fall into that way of thinking. Cult-thinking is everywhere so this is an important lesson. It is difficult to leave the Fellowship, and those that leave must deal with this issue. I appreciate the courage required.

Time may prove me wrong, but for now I am convinced that my work requires letting go of a father figure. I cannot go further with someone telling me how to live, what to think, how to interpret while encouraging me to feel guilty for my independence. That way of life dampens individual spirit and wastes precious time (and other resources).

States are available and can be reinforced by synergy. Many groups create comfortable and exciting states. I had my best states prior to the Fellowship through meditation. But states are not the same as being and the real states that lead to a more truthful worldview are based more on a sense of NOT knowing, a sense of being vulnerable, a sense of awe without understanding and words and a sense of being insignificant.

These kinds of states encourage conscience and can lead to feelings of connectedness that cross imaginary boundaries – like whether we are in or out, or whether people that express negativity are of less value. These kind of states activate curiosity rather than blocking it with a sense of right and wrong.

Imaginary boundaries and simplistic divisions are promoted within the Fellowship. These divisions often remain part of our consciousness after we leave or my be replaced by other simplistic divisions.

169. Daily Cardiac - January 4, 2009

Crouching Tiger – 158:

I did not say you or anyone else could/can not awaken outside of a school; this is purely your projection. I said I believe there are such things as “schools of awakening” and believe I found one in the FoF; so for me there is no need to look further or to leave.

I found what I was looking for and it works for me.. You may not agree with me but why do feel the need to change my message? Are you threatened by it?

170. Jomo Piñata - January 4, 2009

> The FOFion – January 4, 2009
> Breaking News: Burton Says ‘I Do Not Know’

Heyy, wait a minute. This can’t be true. This would never happen.

You know you put the credibility of your whole publication at risk by posting stuff like this.

171. dick moron - January 4, 2009

163. Yesri Baba
(Hey Dick, is it douche-bag, douchebag or douche bag?)

————–
I consulted the expert on the subject, Perezhilton.com, and the consensus there is “douchebag”.

Actually “douche nozzle” is the best term to describe Daily Cardiac. It is correct as 2 words.

172. Crouching Tiger - January 4, 2009

DC.

Your message was quite clear, thus: “At the end of our roving on this subject we are still left with the fact that no other organization has been found that claims to be a school of awakening in the tradition of other esoteric schools of the past.”

I am merely pointing out the obvious, that several people here have found groups or organisations that help them with their work – including me. Nearly all of these do have a link to the past, and one which is more authentic and demonstrable than the fellowship.

The fellowship advertises itself as a ‘school for awakening’ in a loud and public voice, but advertising the claim should not be confused with (quietly) having the substance…

None of the great traditions with which the fellowship likes to try and associate advertised themselves and their wares. It goes against the very meaning of the word ‘esoteric’.

173. dick moron - January 4, 2009

Daily Cardiac:
In ordinary academic schools the pupil is not the one to say whether they graduated but the officials of the school decide that. And officials of spiritual schools (higher forces) seem to suggest that one graduates when one drops the body of this present life.
___________________________

When and how did you hear this suggestion from the officials you mention? “seem to suggest” sounds pretty vague. Are you hearing voices? May I suggest that you have no idea what comes after one “drops the body of this present life”.
Like millions of other humans on earth, you are guided by your blind faith in what others have said. If you were sincere and honest with yourself, you would accept that you do not know.

174. LaLa Land - January 4, 2009

Nigel at 155, You put in words what I had questioned years ago in relation to the awakening of the 44. If they were in a school or part of a school, why is there no lineage of an esoteric school related to them or their school? If they were not in a school then it is possible to awaken on your own. Who needs to donate to a money pit! Not me.

175. Panorea - January 4, 2009

Burton and Burton: The Total Gift Experience

It exists! Google it.

176. The FOFion - January 5, 2009

Correction: In the Sunday, January 4 issue of The FOFion, we reported that Robert Burton said “I do not know.” Burton actually said, “I don’t know.” (part of a new initiative to use contractions and speak naturally).

———————
The FOFion is a non-profit media organization dedicated to its own secret agenda. For previous articles, see the following:

59-145. Irate Student Hurls Shoes at Burton
59-296. FOF holds Special Showing of Kung Fu Panda
60-164. Bush Announces $900 Billion Bailout Package for the FOF
60-174. Gozby Poll: Most Believe the Blog Does Some Good
60-218. Blog Does Hurt Some Feelings
60-223. Burton Followers Organize Protest Against the Blog
60-235. FOF Corporation and Ananda Technologies Announce Merger
60-272. FOF Blog May Shut Its Doors for Good
60-274. FOF Secures Copyright of Vivaldi Music
60-298. University Course Teaches the Art of the New Year’s Toast
61-17. Franklin Denies Connection to Fellowship of Friends
61-113. Former Customers Protest ‘Scam’ by Mount Whitney Adventures
61-154. Breaking News: Burton Says ‘I Do Not Know’

177. brucelevy - January 5, 2009
178. Daily Cardiac - January 5, 2009

DM – 170:

“When and how did you hear this suggestion from the officials you mention? “seem to suggest” sounds pretty vague. Are you hearing voices? May I suggest that you have no idea what comes after one “drops the body of this present life”.
Like millions of other humans on earth, you are guided by your blind faith in what others have said. If you were sincere and honest with yourself, you would accept that you do not know.”

What strikes me first of all in your reply is that you are guessing/assuming I can’t know more than you know in this area?

Also, you are not commenting on what I wrote but on your interpretation of what I wrote.

I didn’t suggest or imply I am an expert on what happens after death, but that does not not prevent me or anyone else from deducing that one completes the curricula of a spiritual school (graduates) when one dies, and not before; as every breath is a lesson.

The concept of working for a lifetime in a school may be foreign to some, but to others it is an apparent truth.

Christ’s last words were “It is finished.”

179. nigel harris price - January 5, 2009

173 Daily Cardiac

I wish you were “finished” (as you said you would be, by New Year’s). Jesus, DC, you really are twisting yourself up in knots (and/or becoming negative IN THE BIG SENSE OF THE WORD)…..Nigel.

180. whalerider - January 5, 2009

Daily Challenge:
I have to say again, your ignorance is revolting, which is why your statements inspire such derogatory responses from others.

Cults keep their followers systematically indoctrinated through many layers of psychological double binds, just like any garden variety religion, leaving them in a compromised state of self doubt and low self-confidence.

In religion, we know that one is required to become a life-time member, submitting one’s will to church “officials” and graduating to the next level at one’s passing, right?

I think you would be hard pressed to find evidence to suggest that “real schools of awakening”, if they do exist at all, only awaken their followers at death. That’s a con game, because nobody, I repeat, nobody actually knows what happens after death. So while you are working your ass off waiting to find out if Burton is going to meet you at the pearly gates when you croak your last croak, he’s out having a gay ‘ole time on your dime.

Whether I joined a cult or an esoteric school of awakening, the result would be the same, it is only the motivation for leaving that is different, for certainly a quality of being more awake is consciously exercising one’s freedom of choice.

In the cult experience, one leaves as a reaction, stepping away from the deepening bullshit factor toward freedom and sanity. In doing so, one would be more awake.

In the school of awakening, one leaves as a proactive choice, stepping toward living one’s life freely to help awaken others however one sees fit or not, without any further need of direction from one’s guru. In doing so, one would be more awake.

Either experience can awaken me if that is what I am after.

But the longer you stay in any esoteric school of awakening, I don’t care what the fuck you or your cult leader claim, the more cult-like it becomes. The truth is, in time, everything becomes it’s opposite, even democracy.

In other words, the longer you stay, the more indoctrinated into the cult trance you become, sucker.

BTW, Christ was a carpenter. How the hell do you know what he meant? He was bleeding to death. When he spoke his last words, he was probably referring to the wood surface of the cross.

181. fofblogmoderator - January 5, 2009

152, 159, 164, 165, 175 & 178 are newly moderated

182. whalerider - January 5, 2009

So the question is for all long-term Fellowship followers, who’s the bigger sucker…you or Burton?

183. lauralupa - January 5, 2009

bruce 178
thanks bruce, that was lovely. Love those bonobos!
I wish we were more like them… If I can take the liberty of making a sweeping statement à la DC, I’ll say it seems much easier to communicate with a smiling bonobo than with a dour brainwashed cult member!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d52mb9xeGwI

184. nigel harris price - January 5, 2009

183 whalerider

I often pose the question “Why am in business for myself, when I could work for the colleges or even come out of my craft-form and get a ‘steady job'”. I think the fact is that I act from my conscience and am beholden to God alone…..Nigel.

185. oolalajp - January 5, 2009

Daily Cardiac – January 5, 2009

“Christ’s last words were “It is finished.”

that’s a joke, right? who in their right (or left) mind would believe that they actually knew what jesus’s last words were?

christ was reported to have said, “…..”: okay.

i believe christ’s last words were, “…..”: okay.

but “christ’s last words were “…..”: not okay. lie. we have no idea what christ’s last words were.

funny how we probably don’t remember what we ate for lunch 9 days ago, but what somebody said 2000-plus years ago…

on another note, if you haven’t watched bill maher’s “religulous”, enjoy this trailer: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=qB8fPJ6zds8&feature=PlayList&p=3C377CC2F9528D0D&index=0&playnext=1

186. oolalajp - January 5, 2009

sorry, can’t resist; it’s just too ripe/rife.

Daily Cardiac – January 5, 2009

“I didn’t suggest or imply I am an expert on what happens after death”

are you supposed to get points for not lying? funny how we can get so caught up in people who prostitute themselves as “experts on what happens after death” instead of practicing how to love our neighbors as ourselves.

“but that does not not prevent me or anyone else from deducing”

deductive reasoning involves moving from the general to the specific. in what way are you moving from the general to the specific by writing about something that you haven’t experienced?

“that one completes the curricula of a spiritual school (graduates) when one dies, and not before; as every breath is a lesson.”

what does juan complete when he dies “outside” (your outside, not my outside…c.f. 145 ) a spiritual school?

187. elena - January 5, 2009

All those posts that showed up today and are repetitions of the other I thought had gotten lost which is why I sent a test then cut them short and sent what I could. Sorry for the repetitions.

Thanks Dragon for your links and all for your posts

188. dragon - January 5, 2009

Hi Elena,

yesterday it was impossible to post! I tried it several times but there was no possibility through for my posts.

Today we were snowed in here in NRW/Germany.

The Düsseldorf airport is closed!

I am astonished at DC, he can’t live without the heat treatment of the Blog.

I think he will thaw if we are kidding him with terms of endearment.

But his far reaching brain modification caused by the FOF!

That’s the reason for his continuous repetition of FOF propaganda ( in many cases)

It might trigger the physiological rewarding system in his brain.

Seemingly he is no longer responsible for his words concerning the FOF.

By the way I like “douchebag”. It is sweet like the German word “Hasenschnäutzelchen”.

189. Kid Shelleen - January 5, 2009

DC wrote:

“If that’s what you deduced from my comments it only serves to prove what I’ve been saying for the last 20 pages – ex members have no bounds when it comes to concocting their own “truth.””

I say:

If you don’t concoct your own truth, you leave it to someone else to concoct it for you.

CONCOCT YOUR OWN TRUTH NOW!!

190. elena - January 5, 2009

Dragon,

Yes, if they hired him from the FOF, they’ll fire him soon but he won’t care because he’s already joined the blog!

It’s quite amazing how it happens isn’t it? Does it not reveal that the greatest need people have is to communicate? COM MU NI TY? To be able to speak and be a part and know that within reasonable limits one cannot get thrown out?

The way it actually works is still a mystery to me, or at least many of its aspects are but I know it has had an enormous healing effect for me in many areas even if it’s also been painfull.

One of the most amazing and unexpected ones is that my eyes’ capacity to work has increased four or five hundred times to what it was two years ago. I still get headaches when its too much but nothing compared to the beginning.

It has also much helped to deprogram the cult pseudopersonality although there’s a long way to go in that area too.

What do you guys think about the fact that since DC joined the blog we haven’t had almost any of the other members participate? Anyone inside heard of a particular policy of the FOF in this regard?

191. Daily Cardiac - January 5, 2009

Crouching Tiger – 169:

“I am merely pointing out the obvious, that several people here have found groups or organisations that help them with their work – including me.”

You won’t get an argument from me on this point. Each worker in the spiritual realm must find his or her very personal way.

Once again; all I’ve said in my time on the blog is that I found my way in the FoF, and that way works for me. Period. I also know many others the FoF works for; I am with them on a daily basis.You don’t have to read anything else in my words other than that. I am not commenting on your or any other blogger’s reality as I don’t know your fate.

CT – “Nearly all of these do have a link to the past, and one which is more authentic and demonstrable than the fellowship.”

You would have a hard time offering evidence to confirm the truth of that comment.

The FoF incorporates the sacred writings of all the major traditions into its teachings. Who can be more authentic than that? Is there any one individual or group who could say – I have a direct link to Christ, or Buddha? Can the neighborhood catholic church make that claim? Can the neighborhood Mosque claim a direct link to the Sufi Sages?

It all comes down to interpreting the ancient teachings “esoterically.” The accuracy of the interpretation is what authenticates a teaching as having a direct link to the past.

CT – “The fellowship advertises itself as a ’school for awakening’ in a loud (?) and public voice, but advertising the claim should not be confused with (quietly) having the substance.

None of the great traditions with which the fellowship likes to try and associate advertised themselves and their wares. It goes against the very meaning of the word ‘esoteric’.”

Matthew – “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven.”

192. dragon - January 5, 2009

For All:

This is a link to the BLOG/archive of Perry Bulwer, Canada.
(AN ARCHIVE OF NEWS ITEMS RELATED TO CHILD ABUSE OR NEGLECT, OR INFRINGEMENT OF CHILDREN’S RIGHTS, IN A RELIGIOUS CONTEXT. Copyrighted materials appearing on this blog are provided solely for the Fair Use purposes of research and education)

You will find in his archive the article of Ryan McCarthy in the Appeal-Democrat, California:

http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2008/08/critics-call-fellowship-of-friends-cult.html

post a comment if you like to do so!

Profile of :

Perry Bulwer
Lawyer, Human rights advocate.
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_profile/bulwer_perry.asp

193. dragon - January 5, 2009

DC,light of the world? ELENA FOR YOU:

“Each prospective student who does not join in the next 20 years,” she said, “is worth all the trouble.”

194. elena - January 5, 2009

DC: Once again; all I’ve said in my time on the blog is that I found my way in the FoF, and that way works for me. Period. I also know many others the FoF works for; I am with them on a daily basis.You don’t have to read anything else in my words other than that. I am not commenting on your or any other blogger’s reality as I don’t know your fate.

It’s true, that’s all you are trying to say to reassure the members that that’s enough. “As long as it works for me, to hell with the rest” How could it not work for the enablers saying this? Thirty five years living like ticks of other people’s energy and effort. Of course it works for you, there’s no need to state the obvious any more, we already know that. It is precisely against those like you who the blog is questioning but to no point because you people are too crystallized to perceive what a question is:

What is dignity and harmony, beauty and integrity for you?

Where does the non expression of negative emotions lead to and what is the process to that?

You do not have a right to exist. No one has a right to hurt other people economically, emotionally, intellectually, physically or sexually and the Fellowship of Friends cult does all of the above.

You are mentally deranged. Your sociopathic behavior goes against the well being of society and each member.

You are thieves, pimps, abusers, manipulators, rapists. You hide money and don’t pay the right taxes. You will fall off that cloud for once and for all soon enough.

195. art - January 5, 2009

daily propagandist at 193 or so,

the operative word with this bible quotation is “light.”

with the fof, it isn’t light that’s being “set on a hill.” burton and the fof set the lies on the hill, and hide the truth.

It’s the mantra of the fof:

Show the lies.
Hide the truth.
Show the lies.
Hide the truth.
etc.

196. elena - January 5, 2009

Thanks Dragon, hadn’t seen that before I just posted.

197. art - January 5, 2009

elena 192: “What do you guys think about the fact that since DC joined the blog we haven’t had almost any of the other members participate? Anyone inside heard of a particular policy of the FOF in this regard?”

yes. i think it’s an unwritten policy called the “oh no, i can’t read this; what the fuck am i doing in this cult” policy.

if people read it for any length of time, they leave. it becomes too clear, too obvious. if the goal is to stay, they know reading this will knock them flying. so they don’t read, and they don’t post.

daily curd is different. i doubt there’s anything burton could do that would give him pause. i’m sure there many others like that. they can read these pages with no pangs of conscience. curdiac is here because knows the blog helps people to wake up (me included). information and facts are burton’s enemy.

198. dick moron - January 5, 2009

175. LaLa Land
If they were in a school or part of a school, why is there no lineage of an esoteric school related to them or their school? If they were not in a school then it is possible to awaken on your own.

_____________
Bob Burton said more than once in my presence that some of the 44 “conscious beings” did not realize or understand that they had awakened. He cited Lewis Carroll as an example.
In other words, someone can be conscious and not realize they are, while Bob can know that they had awakened, without ever having met them. I don’t think Bob is just at the level of Jesus, I think he must be God, the all-knowing himself. I guess this also explains how Jihad Haven can be conscious and still act like such a dumb-ass.

199. whalerider - January 5, 2009

Daily Challenge:
“that they may see your good deeds…”

You mean…as in how good Burton is doing his dirty deeds? Oh, gag me with a spoon!

You say 17,000 people have been funneled through the Fellowship’s so-called, “School of Awakening” and that near as anyone can tell there hasn’t been one fully ‘conscious, self-actualized, conscience intact, higher’ human being (or canine) produced…just a bunch of failed predictions and wasted money by a gay, narcissistic, shop-a-holic-sex addict control freak? Hello? Can you hear me now? C’mon. Wake up, people.

And how would his followers be expected to praise Burton’s father in heaven if nobody knows anything about him? Burton’s father is an complete unknown. Without a home. (Who knows, maybe he’s a rolling stone?)

Have you no eyes left to see the writing on the wall?

Your cult leader would have you all focus on counting rhino poop instead, with presence, of course.

IMHO, if a “school of awakening” is not teaching you how to be spiritually independent and morally self-sufficient, nor guiding you to find your own truth within, then it is a mind snaring cult.

End of story.

Allah has provided us all as individuals with equal access to the truth and to the light. Each of us need to be able to walk into our own light.

At the end of Christ’s life, his school, if you call it that, was finished…whether he made that statement or not. That was the point where the Christian religion social club began…same with Mohammad and Buddha. Only, they left a much different trail of deeds than Burton.

200. Crouching Tiger - January 5, 2009

CT – “Nearly all of these do have a link to the past, and one which is more authentic and demonstrable than the fellowship.”

DC. “You would have a hard time offering evidence to confirm the truth of that comment.

“The FoF incorporates the sacred writings of all the major traditions into its teachings. Who can be more authentic than that? Is there any one individual or group who could say – I have a direct link to Christ, or Buddha? Can the neighborhood catholic church make that claim? Can the neighborhood Mosque claim a direct link to the Sufi Sages?

“It all comes down to interpreting the ancient teachings “esoterically.” The accuracy of the interpretation is what authenticates a teaching as having a direct link to the past.”

The evidence, in the instance of the fellowship’s original claim to be a school in the Gurdjieff-Ouspensky tradition, has already been offered. The broken link through Alex Horn. Horn’s own spurious claim of a connection to Gurdjieff teaching. The estimate of RB’s own time as a student as around eighteen months, culminating in a murky departure from Horn’s group. There was no period of study and apprenticeship in the spiritual life of Robert Burton that forms a solid background. Everything about his background and level of being is assumed.

As for the fellowship ‘incorporating’ other traditions in its own teachings – if by ‘incorporating’ you mean taking soundbytes out of the books and using them for RB’s meetings, you are correct. Judging by the time and effort expended to find these quotes in the research octave of which I was part, they are no more ‘incorporated’ than Gurdjieff’s own teaching. Again, everything is assumed.

DC – “It all comes down to interpreting the ancient teachings “esoterically”. ”

Yes, I agree. It comes down to your belief that they are being interpreted accurately – e.g. the cave paintings. And that is what makes the fellowship what it is, a school of faith. In the same way that you believe that RB is the ‘brightest light in 2,000 years’ on the face of this planet.

Few who joined the school on the understanding that it was a Gurdjieff school, did so with the desire simply to believe in what was fed to them. I know I didn’t. As Gurdjieff himself said,

“There is a weakness which everyone who works with me, must destroy. You believe. You must never believe. You must criticize everything, accept nothing which you cannot prove, like two and two make four. Believing does not count, it is worth nothing. You believe, you want to pass on your beliefs with your emanations.”

As such, the fellowship stands in direct opposition to the 4th Way, and probably most of the other traditions it thinks to ‘incorporate’.

201. art - January 5, 2009

peter 167. “He just wants money, power and sex.”

thanks peter, that’s a concise summary of burton.

we can argue for the next several years about religion and cults and “esoteric knowledge” and everything related, but does anyone dispute the above who has learned anything in the fof?

===

oh, excuse me, yes… those of us in a deep trance dispute the above.

202. nigel harris price - January 5, 2009

There must be a reason why DC has overstepped his timing aim by 5 days – is it that he is so identified with his stance on the blog that he will not yield his ‘formatory territory’?…..Nigel.

203. art - January 5, 2009

question:
has anyone heard a roughly ‘neutral’ stance from dc or from any of the other shills?

in other words, i’m reading in some of the previous pages that people “learned a lot” in the fof, and “gained many friends,” etc., but that burton is obviously delusional and sociopathic, etc.

(although i question both of those positive assumptions about the fof, as there’s more evidence the fof actually stunts learning and interferes with genuine friendships, not the other way around.)

does anyone ever hear the apologists say, “burton’s addiction to sex and his abusive behavior with my fellow students does cause me a lot of concern. i feel like i’m still getting a lot from being a member of the school, but i do sense there are serious problems in the fellowship, and I’m sometimes concerned we may be on a descending octave. but i’m sticking with it for now because this may be friction from higher forces to test me, blah blah.”

or something similar? has anyone stood up at a meeting and said such a thing recently? discuss the above over a glass of wine? written into the blog with such a neutral viewpoint? or does it all continue to be complete bullshit? (as opposed to partial bullshit?)

204. brucelevy - January 5, 2009

202. art

No. Except for those that did, and were “asked to leave the school”.

Douchnozzle

Your narcissism, directed at your own “intelligence”, coupled with your innate stupidity and earth shaking blindness (especially), as well as your complete lack of conscience is truly mind boggling. You are the perfect “student”, except when you don’t “follow directions” from your handlers. Obedience vs.personal vanity. Ai, there’s the rub.

I suspect, at this point, without the blog to reflect back your “greatness”, you don’t have a fucking life.

205. brucelevy - January 5, 2009

And, oh yeah, have you contacted Craig Docktor yet to let him know that what happened to him never happened? Funny how you ignore all my posts except the one about the OH Store, yet you haven’t followed up on “the truth” as you call it.

You’re a weasel.

206. brucelevy - January 5, 2009

You might consider it your personal totem.

207. The FOFion - January 5, 2009

Burton Says He’s ‘Had It’ — No More Asking

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — After years of delivering his commands in the passive voice, Fellowship of Friends CEO Robert Burton says he’s tired of asking.

“I’ve had it,” Burton said during an impromptu press conference in front of the Galleria on Monday. “Everybody says, ‘Robert has asked this, and Robert has asked that.’ I’m through with asking. From now on, I’m telling.”

For many years, Burton’s decrees have been delivered with an all-too-familiar “Robert has asked.” For example, a student recently stood up at a meeting and shouted, “This is insane! What is wrong with all of us?!” Word soon got out that he “was asked” to leave the school.

“Screw asking,” Burton said.

Over the years, many students have refused to follow Burton’s orders because of the awkward phrasing.

“It was like, fine, Robert has asked that we stop giving angles at meetings,'” said one ex-member. “But you’re wondering right away, ‘When exactly did he ask this? And whom did he ask?’ Until I get more information, I’ll continue to give angles.”

Burton has asked that the new policy take effect immediately.

208. nigel harris price - January 5, 2009

203/204/205 brucelevy

Bruce, I don’t think DC can directly answer anyone on this blog! Have you noticed his ‘formatory prancings’ because he loves to listen to himself and cannot stand a stimulating conversation by other posters about the possibilites of awakening, and what goes with it, outside the FOF…..Nigel.

209. brucelevy - January 5, 2009

DC

On the other hand, sweet prince, your words are an emetic.

210. Daily Cardiac - January 6, 2009

Bruce Levy:

Re: OHG:

I said what I wanted to say about the purported incident at the Oregon House grocery.

What I said was that while I can’t know for sure whether it happened or not in my opinion it was highly unlikely; highly dubious as it was reported in your post. I also mentioned in detail (in more than one post) why I thought it was fabricated.

If Craig Docktor reads the blog he is certainly free to retell the incident in his own words, which may or may not lend more believability to the story.

211. elena - January 6, 2009

FOFion,

I’m beginning to laugh spontaneously when something is funny but my capacity to perceive what is funny is still far from normal. I’ve much enjoyed your posts, could I please have a go! You’ve inspired me!

After years of delivering his commands with a slight gesture proper of a Goddess in a masculine vessel, Fellowship of Friends CEO Robert Burton says he’s pleased with “my darlings”.

“You’ve won!” Burton said during an impromptu press conference in front of the Galleria on Monday. “Your will is my will: the will of the Gods and we will all be together in the afterlife for eternity”
“You are my beloved students”

Over the years, no one, not even Elena, has dared question Burton’s feminine gestures, afraid of revealing her own nature!

“It was like magic! All the males began acting like the Goddess and all the women like the Goddesses’ warriors and no one could distinguish his or her own nature any longer. Nature itself was submitted with success under the pressure of the conscious Rose garden. All things became conscious under the Goddesses’ divine influence and spontaneously changed into Gold.

Prospective student meetings will be held every month for anyone interested in learning the Art of Knowing the Goddesses desires before she even expresses them through the Sequence. “Only nine lifetimes” said Burton in his, her ineffable voice. ““Effort, more effort” and you’ll soon erase your self from your self completely transfigured at the service of the goddess!” added Mr. Haven! the second in command of the “Arc for Humanity”.

Please deposit the extent of your pocket, your heart and your mind before you enter, only male sexes are desired. Women are welcome if they know how to dough and allow for anything and everything which is the price of eternity!

__________________

God! This is fun!

212. The FOFion - January 6, 2009

To Elena: The editors, publishers, and staff of the FOFion are glad you’re getting some good laughs. Mission: accomplished!

And of course freelance articles and letters to the editor are always welcome. Enjoy.

213. elena - January 6, 2009

De Rumba again!

214. elena - January 6, 2009

Un beso!

215. elena - January 6, 2009

Hmmm!

216. elena - January 6, 2009

FOFion,

Do you think someone is offended because I played with your form?

Was it funny only for me?

I must be way out there then! But I don’t mind knowing if you want to say so. What was so wrong?

217. elena - January 6, 2009

Then you can have some Colombian Folk!

218. elena - January 6, 2009

Still De Rumba and without even a drink!

I just realized that two of my ex-husbands are still in the Fellowship! Wow, must be some kind of karma!!

My first husband, Jorge, Elisa’s father is a wonderful singer, a showman and here is a song that he sang almost better than these guys! It was the day after he left that I tried to fly!

For those still inside, ask him to sing for you! He was ashamed of playing his music for many years because the Fellowship only allowed classic but he’s playing again for friends!

Where are you all? It’s almost one in the morning and I must have a dance before I go to bed!

219. Yesri Baba - January 6, 2009

Translation into human:

“I said what I wanted to say about the purported incident at the Oregon House grocery.”

I’m a smug, smarmy, passive-aggressive little prick so I am not going to respond.

“What I said was that while I can’t know for sure whether it happened or not in my opinion it was highly unlikely; highly dubious as it was reported in your post. I also mentioned in detail (in more than one post) why I thought it was fabricated.”

Moses could bring it down from the mountain carved in stone and I wouldn’t believe it.

“If Craig Docktor reads the blog he is certainly free to retell the incident in his own words, which may or may not lend more believability to the story.”

Craig Docktor can tell the story in his own words but he may as well go try to fill the Grand Canyon one pebble at a time.

220. Ellen - January 6, 2009

FoFion, I’m lovin’ it.
Keep ’em comin’!

221. Panorea - January 6, 2009

Ordered, received and started reading the book “The Guru Papers”, Masks of Authoritarian Power; by Joel Kramer and & Diana Alstad.

I highly recommend the book. It assists with the healing process. It opens one’s eyes just a tiny bit more. Try to read it; “in” or “out”.

And yes, FoFion, I’m loving it too. 🙂

222. Panorea - January 6, 2009

How do you add an avatar here?

223. elena - January 6, 2009

The dance! Still de rumba!

224. Crouching Tiger - January 6, 2009

DC. ‘The King of Clubs’

As all of us know, the principal villain in Robert Burton’s version of the 4th Way is the King of Clubs, or the intellectual part of the Instinctive Centre. This gets the blame for nearly everything that goes wrong inside us.

To demonstrate how far removed RB’s understanding is from 4th Way tradition, and from Gurdjieff himself, here is a little-known private talk from the papers of J.G.Bennett:

“Our virtual exclusion from the Intellectual part of the Instinctive Centre is one of the penalties which modern man has to incur for the benefits of civilization. Many powers which are commonly regarded as supra-normal have their seat in the conscious regions of the Instinctive Centre.

“In reply to a question, G. once said, ‘If you were conscious in Instinctive Centre you could talk with animals, even worms!’ This expresses the close connection between Instinctive Centre and Organic Life on Earth.

“The true working of Will in the Instinctive Centre is in the Intellectual part, where the almost miraculous power the body has of cognition and regulation can be exercised consciously. This is the true ‘Communion with Nature’ of which the poets dream! It has also the power of discerning and curing disease, and for this purpose is able to control sources of energy in the body immensely greater than those usually available to the Centres. These powers are acquired by means of special exercises, the knowledge of which is confined to hidden schools. … While these powers require special training, they are not in any sense supernatural, nor, taken alone, does their possession necessarily imply a higher level of being.

“Finally, it must be said that the highest parts of all four Centres are capable of co-ordinated working which can give results entirely beyond any ordinary human understanding – and living as we do almost entirely in the mechanical parts of our Centres we can in fact have no conception of the wealth of effective action which actually are our birthright.”

Hardly the devil that RB makes of the King of Clubs?? I hope this illustrates just how homespun and damaging many of the crumbs that RB presumably collected from Horn’s own broken table, are in relation to the original teaching… They spring from his own psychic make-up rather than from their real origin.

There is another nice passage on the Emotional part of the Emotional Centre (Queen of Hearts) – another of RB’s rogues – which I’ll post later.

225. elena - January 6, 2009

Dear Friends in the Fellowship Cult,

Here’s a lesson on the expression of feelings. Please remember that not being identified does not mean becoming frigid. On the contrary, life flows freely while you are in an out of it at the same time!

Chopin Piano Concerto No.1 Op.11 (5/5), Lang Lang

226. elena - January 6, 2009

Nice Crouching Tiger, thanks.

In a similar way, a developed consciousness of the moving centre would give an understanding of space, music, timing, form, architecture, engineering and other sciences connected. Each centre is a world of its own, so to speak. But each of these sciences is available to any individual in the finding of his own self. The worst difficulty humans face today is that we’ve been programmed to think of ourselves not only as inferior to others because of our social, national or other upbringing but also as spiritual midgets.

Likewise, a developed consciousness in the emotional centre is a language of its own. It is The Language of love.

A developed consciousness in the intellectual centre perceives the laws manifesting in anything and everything in the physical world as an expression of the spiritual world.

In the Fellowship Cult the centres are SEVERED from the individual. It concentrates only on “the I and its “presence” without functions” rendering the wings of the soul useless: Like a body without arms and legs. Members cannot develop because they are unable to exercise their understanding practically. The selected few who get a role in the arts or other octaves (areas) and can act under the established conditions, develop at the cost of others as privileged chosen ones and that alone corrupts their self and defines the direction of their development. A positive development of the self depends on the relationship that one establishes with others. Lack of equality or any other form of separation develops fascists in no matter what country or context, not conscious beings. Fascists, that is, people who think that they are superior to others, that they are more qualified than others, that they have more rights, more being, more of anything and are unable to perceive the spirit within each human being or respect it. As long as there are differences in the sense of “I”, no matter how professional and well prepared a person might be, injustices will arise from his life and work, keeping him or her from unity, community.

In our times, we all have different degrees of fascists in whatever context we are living: Some more social than racial, others more academic than social. Artists, scientists, industrials; each think we are better than the other but we are all expressing our own limitation through such illusory make up. A balanced individual is scientific, artistic and industrial at the same time. The more educated people are today, the better than others they think they are but it is with peasants and uneducated people that one feels one is treated “humanly”. The world is indeed upside down and backwards and each person must turn his own self upright and forward if we are not going to continue the systematic abuses in all walks of life that we are submitting each other to in the present.

227. dragon - January 6, 2009

Elena: Chopin was a divine composer but what about George Sand?

To all Fellowship students: Don’t restrict your own movements, your intellectual and spiritual growth!

What will become of the world when all women are like George Sand?

Honoré de Balzac

What will become of the FOF when all women are like Elena?

George Sand: The Writer

Although George Sand was not the first women author, she is often attributed as the first professional woman writer of fiction.

By taking on a man’s name she claimed her equality with the male writers of the time. She wanted to be judged purely based upon her talents and not only as a women author, which the men looked upon condescendingly. She soon became famous and other women began to copy her style.

They too took on male names but most of these women lacked the education that the male authors had.

While the men had been taught editing, revising and polishing before releasing their work to the public, the women lacked this education and so would often publish their first drafted idea.

As for George Sand’s own writing, her words were read by hundreds of men and women alike. Her novels often portrayed women as intelligent and morally sound individuals, giving her readers confidence in their worth as females. She was an idol to women of her time.

While giving dignity to those she considered enslaved to marriage, she forever changed the way that women writers were viewed.

228. brucelevy - January 6, 2009

209. Daily Cardiac

You’re a liar, a coward and a weasel.

229. brucelevy - January 6, 2009

223. Crouching Tiger

Of course it’s the diabolic king of hearts that would have the temerity to say “take your repulsive hands off my dick you repulsive old queen.” No wonder the FOF fights it tooth and nail.

230. elena - January 6, 2009

Dragon, you honor me but that honor is almost more difficult to take than the silence, indifference or rejection.

We are each and all of us here equally valuable. There are at least ten other better writers than myself and I much learn from them. Even Daily Cardiac who I insult day in and day out to my own shame is better than I am in so many ways. And he’s absolutely crazy too and that is also all right.

A “hi” is enough, a thank you!, an expression of joy, an acknowledgement of any kind even if it is that you didn’t enjoy the music. But this big recognition is very frightning and seems out of proportion for a blog like ours. I’m a wild horse gone lose and you much help me by keeping me in the stable.

Thank you nevertheless from the bottom of my heart, I’m glad you hear even if I publish the first draft without editing, revising or polishing as I should have learnt to do. Eagerness kills discipline but hopefully not the soul.

231. Ellen - January 6, 2009

#223, Crouching Tiger,

Thank you for the information about the King of Clubs. And your earlier post , #128. It’s important to set the record straight, because things have been bent out of shape for so long.

Relative to that, I have a few thoughts of my own regarding self remembering, the core practice of presence both within the Fourth Way system of knowledge and the Fellowship of Friends. I think it’s important to set the record straight there also, particularly in comparison with traditional forms of meditation.

So, traditional meditation practice has two poles: samatha and vipassanā. “Samatha is a focusing, pacifying and calming meditation, common to many traditions in the world, notably yoga. It is used as a preparation for vipassanā, pacifying the mind and strengthening the concentration in order to allow the work of insight.” (Wikipedia) From what I currently understand, self remembering as a practice is intended as an elementary form of the latter: vipassanā or insight meditation. Thus, vipassanā can be described as the effort to “bring full awareness to the mind, body and all sensations and be fully present” (Wikipedia). In actual personal practice, most people use a combination of both approaches.

But, what’s interesting relative to awakening or enlightenment is that both meditative practices are merely that, just practices, and can lead to a lifetime of – more practice!!! – rather than insight itself. Thus, IMO, one reason that many FoF members found the Sequence so dissatisfactory, was because it’s a retrograde step backwards to a samatha type of concentration rather than a deeper opening into the insight of vipassanā. They suddenly realized very clearly that RB has no personal insight of his own to offer!

I translated this passage recently from Douwe Tiemersma, regarding the shortcomings of even vipassanā. It made a lot of sense to me, particularly as to why the Fellowship veered so far off course into its strange form of crystallized duality:

“The vipassana meditation is a specific type of practice. It’s a meditation that focuses on keeping a distance. So you consistently keep viewing all phenomena at a distance, and label them eventually. In a certain phase it is useful in order to be less identified with all sorts of things, to break through standard patterns and experience the “emptiness”. But if that remains the only approach, you’ll stay in duality. To stay busy too long with vipassana is not advisable. That there is a awareness of the phenomena at a distance is very good, but the process should proceed even further in the direction of non-duality. That means once again that you’re going to be aware of yourself as an observer. Then everything becomes open, so that all phenomena can return in a non-duality. In such openness, there is no separation any more between yourself and the flower that appears.”

…and the life person that appears
…and the former member that appears
…and the blog that appears
…and the picketer that appears
…and the petition that appears
…and…and…and…

232. fofblogmoderator - January 6, 2009

192 is newly moderated

233. Yawning Lion - January 6, 2009

Crouching Tiger,

I am also very interested in authentic G. teaching, which branch of the Foundation are you associated with, my only connection with someone in the Foundation is in another country. Where would you suggest I look for reading material similar to what you a posting here.

YL

234. whalerider - January 6, 2009

Dear Followers of the Fellowhip Cult:

Moons suck.

235. Daily Cardiac - January 6, 2009

Crouching Tiger:

Re: The King of Clubs.

I don’t disagree with anything you quoted. Each function and division of function has its purpose; otherwise they would not have been designed into our makeup. But each function is also capable of wrong work when mixed with features/ego/FP. That’s why a “ruling faculty” like the Steward has also been included into our design. This function also needs nurturing.

As Gurdjieff said the K of C is capable of speaking to animals. This is useful to many people; Vets immediately come to mind. By the way, some years ago the Vets name in the OH area was Wayne Wolff. Influence C apparently has a cunning sense of humor.

The function known as the “gateway to higher worlds” is the Nine Of Hearts; also one of the least developed in ordinary life as a “normal” existence can be fulfilled without it’s use or development. Through the Nine of Hearts one can receive instructions from Angels.

236. lauralupa - January 6, 2009

Show us Your Habits, Your Facts, Your Fears
Give us your address, your shoe size, your years
your digits, your plans, your number, your eyes
your skedule, your desktop, your details, your life.
Show us your children, your photos, your home.
Here, take credit, take insurance, take a loan.
Get a job, get a pension, get a haircut, get a suit.
Play the lottery, play football, play the field, sports to boot

We want your Soul
Your Cash, Your House, Your Phone, Your Life, Your Cash, Your House, Your Life

Here’s programmes, here’s matters, here’s Britney, here’s Cola
Here’s pizza, here’s TV, here’s some rock and some rolla
Watch commercials, more commercials, watch Jerry, not Oprah
Buy a better life from the comfort of your sofa
Here’s popcorn, here’s magazines, here’s milkshake, here’s blue jeans
here’s padded bras, here’s long cars, here’s football shirts, here’s baseball caps
here’s live talk shows, here’s video games, here’s cola lite, here’s Timberlake
here’s fingertips, here’s colegen, here’s all night bars, here’s plastic

We want your soul
Your Cash, Your House, Your Phone, Your Life, Your Cash, Your House, Your Life

Your cellphone, your wallet, your time, your ideas
No barcode, no party, no iodine, no beers
your bankcard, your license, your thoughts, your fears
no simcard, no disco, no photo, not here
your blood, your sweat, your passions, your regrets
your office, your timeoff, your fashions, your sex
your tits, your pass, your face, your ass.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fNpoV-0YyvA&feature=related

your lifetime membership, your unswerving loyalty,
your commitment to effort, your practice of the Sequence
your presence, your money, your silence,
your dick, your sperm, your ass
your denial

237. lauralupa - January 6, 2009

different, remix, same message

We Want Your Soul

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VH_DkBI9Qsk&feature=related

238. lauralupa - January 6, 2009

Daily Card
You Are Free To Do As We Tell You

239. harryhindsight - January 6, 2009

Daily Cardigan

“Staying on course is difficult in general and in the FoF staying is made especially difficult in order to keep the school at the level of the fastest students.”

Excellent piece of bullshit D.C. well done ! Shame though that you probably, actually , really do believe your own regurgitated nonsense.

If I might ask, who exactly are these super fast students, how many of them are there ? I’m presuming you must either be one and/or be able to recognise one . How do you distinguish one of them from those poor slow coaches who pay lots of money just to puff and wheeze and make up the numbers,, – big shiny nose perhaps? larger than normal tolerance to the debilitating effects of Viagra toxicity? How do you work it out D.C.?

Also, where the fuck are they all racing to, when do you think the fastest one will pass the finishing post, how far is he or she ahead of the dullards in the pack, and why does the Fellowship make it especially difficult to stay in this bizarre bicycle race?

Just wondering.

240. Crouching Tiger - January 6, 2009

229 Bruce. Thanks for the [grim] reality check on what the ‘theory’ is used for.

235. DC. I’m glad you don’t disagree. However, I’d point out that no-one in the fellowship, including and especially RB, ever had a good word to say about the King of Clubs – least of all that it was necessary to the co-ordination of all four centres! It was seen as the origin of evil within Man, and hence the adversary a fellowship student had to combat. I never once heard the positive influence of the King of Clubs attested by anyone. That’s why it belongs to RB’s psychic make-up rather than the teaching itself.

Here’s what Bennett has to say about the Queen of Hearts, the next villain on Burton’s block after the King of Clubs, and responsible (supposedly) for sins such as laughter and ‘wit’:

“The Emotional Part of the Emotional Centre is the seat of natural emotional judgment. That is to say, it is not dependent upon acquired habits, but on th synthetic or constructive power of the Emotional Centre itself… The Emotional Centre constructs a complete attitude or judgment which is unique and appropriate to the situation presented.

This working of the Emotional Part of the Emotional Centre may sometimes be recognised in our judgment of other people. Many people have the power – some to a marked degree – of forming a total judgment of the ‘character’ of a person at the first meeting, almost at the very first contact. The power… is so great, and can be developed so that they can predict with considerable accuracy the tastes and inclinations of a person, with their views on many subjects, their behaviour in a variety of circumstances, with no speech or other intellectual exchange and after the very shortest acquaintance – measured perhaps in seconds.

This instrument is one of man’s most precious possessions, for it bestows on him the power of DISCRIMINATION. The judgments of the Emotional Centre are always judgments of being and therefore judgments of consciousness. The Emotional Part of the Emotional Centre can distinguish between two influences presented to it, that which is more and that which is less conscious.

Finally, it must be understood that this part is very rarely used. In most people’s lives, it occupies no significant part at all, and among the few in whom it is operative, its effect is rather to create a general sense of direction and system of values than to determine their actions.”

Again, you won’t hear anything like this about the Queen of Hearts in the fellowship.

241. Vonlenska - January 6, 2009

235 Daily Involuntary Blood Pump

Can’t you perceive the sanctimonious, posturing, falsehood of what you write? Just read it again a couple of times as though you had not written it and try to take it in as though it did not emanate from you.

You are repeating FOF doctrine. The majority of posters on this blog have discovered that the purpose of Burton’s doctrine was to control others, not to reveal the truth.

‘Influence C apparently has a cunning sense of humor’. Complete bollocks. Are you flaunting your FOF-centric beliefs to bait others? Given previous responses to your posts, you can be in no doubt that you will get slammed for your mutated faith.
Are you stating that you honestly believe that higher intelligence in the form of disembodied egos of some of the world’s most important historical and cultural figures should be seeking to amuse you by putting a vet in Oregon House called ‘Wayne Wolff’?

Incidentally, there is a vet on Colusa in Yuba city called ‘Happy Tails Pet Grooming’ – maybe this is a vindication of Burtons system?

As has been stated before by several posters, it is not that Burton is particularly intelligent and certainly did not set out to do what he has done. Burton’s organization developed over time with the help of his devoted students organically due to the different stimuli that came his and his close circle of supporter’s way. A kind of credo was established as the more inspiring ideas took root, that were also able to consolidate Burton’s position.
The myth of the 9 of hearts is one of these ideas. Through deifying the 9 of hearts Burton is able to possess himself of massive authority. The gardens, the Galleria, the quotes, keys, commentaries etc are all presented as a manifestation of the understanding of the 9 of hearts.
Brilliant, it is pretty much game over for those who accept that Burton is a man number 7, that the lower can not see the higher and that the 9 of hearts is the ‘gateway to higher worlds’. As you put it’ it is the least developed in ordinary life as a “normal” existence can be fulfilled without it’s use or development. Through the Nine of Hearts one can receive instructions from Angels’
So, Burton’s existence is not normal and he is untouchable as he is a law unto himself as far as his devotees are concerned.

There is not middle ground here, D.C. You cannot both retain your rational integrity and at the same time subscribe to this belief. As your rational integrity, or conscience, gains ascendancy these beliefs are put into relief and seen for what they are – lies. Then one asks oneself why such a system of lies should have been necessary. Much of the dialogue in the blog is the deconstruction of these lies and the attempt to understand the fatal flaws in Burton and his close circle of enablers who made this possible and what their motives were.

Your contribution to the blog is noteworthy, you have allowed the sappers to go to work on the buttresses that keep the FOF standing. These supports have become so necessary to keeping the FOF from crumbling that they are architecturally far more of a feature than the central structure, which is actually pretty simple and petty. You could just as well be a mormon, scientologist, catholic, etc etc. You are an example of a certain type who flourishes in an institution like the FOF. Have you considered this? Maybe your defense and justification of the FOF has more to do with your own weakness. In any case you are doing a lousy job of it, I can hardly imagine a better way of stimulating critical thought about the FOF amongst current students than an inept justifier. Maybe C influence sent you to us 😉

242. Vena - January 6, 2009

Worth repeating:

“There is a weakness which everyone who works with me, must destroy. You believe. You must never believe. You must criticize everything, accept nothing which you cannot prove, like two and two make four. Believing does not count, it is worth nothing. You believe, you want to pass on your beliefs with your emanations.”

As such, the fellowship stands in direct opposition to the 4th Way, and probably most of the other traditions it thinks to ‘incorporate’.

243. Daily Cardiac - January 6, 2009

Vena:

“Believing does not count, it is worth nothing.”

How true; that is why man is given to power to verify.

244. elena - January 6, 2009

DC. 235

What you say in this post doesn’t contradict the System or what Crouching Tiger is stating as you also accept but it has nothing to do with the Fellowship Cult because in the Cult, Robert is the only one to give himself credit for having such possibilities of development. The few others that he acknowledged could reach certain development left the Fellowship or disappeared in it.

We obviously don’t really have difficulties with much of the theory, it’s in the facts where we don’t agree and in the facts where you seem unable to perceive or incorporate reality. It is a truly revealing aspect of being brainwashed when the structure of your thoughts cannot meet factual reality. When you have to over load your doctrine with adjectives of superiority to compensate for what you’ve lost in your practical life and when your practical life allows for abuses of dignity in your self or others.
Undoing that pseudopersonality that was programmed by the Fellowship to submit one’s own self for the benefit of the Fellowship, is what many of us here have been doing for a year and still have far to go.

You have much helped us. I thank you for your posts and apologize for my insults. I did not come out of the Fellowship healthy and balanced and feeling my outrage has much helped me recover the positive aspects of an instinctive affirmation. It is good to learn to protect one’s self when someone like you wants to justify the reasons for people being robed and raped. My insults reveal that I still feel vulnerable and threatened by you but that is changing.

245. elena - January 6, 2009

242
Daily Cardiac,

True, but you can’t verify anything if you have to blind yourself to the facts to hold up your doctrine.

246. Vonlenska - January 6, 2009

Daily Involuntary Blood Pump

Maybe you could explain the process of verification to us. Properly, mind – give us a thought out description of the process.

247. elena - January 6, 2009

Thanks Crouching Tiger for your research. Could we explore Bennet together?

Bennet: “The Emotional Part of the Emotional Centre is the seat of natural emotional judgment. That is to say, it is not dependent upon acquired habits, but on the synthetic or constructive power of the Emotional Centre itself… The Emotional Centre constructs a complete attitude or judgment which is unique and appropriate to the situation presented.

_______We would need to be clear about what type of judgment he’s talking about because what people regularly understand by judgment is the possibility of neglecting other people because they judge them unworthy of their attention. A “judgement” that is unique and appropriate to the situation must necessarily be one in which the perception of the individual in front of one is as dignified as one’s own perception of one’s self. If one truly incarnates such consciousness, it would be impossible for one to prevent the other person from expressing and manifesting exactly the same rights and space that one grants one’s self. In placing himself above the members and dismantling them from their participation as equal in dignity to that of himself, under the premise that he is a superior being, Robert humiliates and demeanours the members who soon assume acts of idolatry and self deprecation and their participation is reduced to their instinctive centre’s capacity or the amount of money and work that they can give the Fellowship without any space for their own emotional or intellectual centre or capacity to create.

Bennet: “This working of the Emotional Part of the Emotional Centre may sometimes be recognised in our judgment of other people. Many people have the power – some to a marked degree – of forming a total judgment of the ‘character’ of a person at the first meeting, almost at the very first contact. The power… is so great, and can be developed so that they can predict with considerable accuracy the tastes and inclinations of a person, with their views on many subjects, their behaviour in a variety of circumstances, with no speech or other intellectual exchange and after the very shortest acquaintance – measured perhaps in seconds.”

___________People in our societies are programmed so badly that you can tell the history of another individual by the clothes he or she is wearing, by the way she or he moves and by the language he or she uses. We are trapped in these kind of character analysis, identified with the values it reveals, forgetting the human being inside the circumstances. That code is known by almost everyone and anyone because it is enforced everyday of our lives.

Bennet: “This instrument is one of man’s most precious possessions, for it bestows on him the power of DISCRIMINATION. The judgments of the Emotional Centre are always judgments of being and therefore judgments of consciousness. The Emotional Part of the Emotional Centre can distinguish between two influences presented to it, that which is more and that which is less conscious.”

____________To discriminate the human behind the mask is the challenge. Robert disguised all the members with the same uniform and granted human dignity to none.

Bennet: “Finally, it must be understood that this part is very rarely used. In most people’s lives, it occupies no significant part at all, and among the few in whom it is operative, its effect is rather to create a general sense of direction and system of values than to determine their actions.”
__________This is an extremely limited presentation of King of Hearts or the emotional centre which is good because a few might bother to read it but it’s worth adding books to it!

__________If we imagine Real I or the self like a kite, the emotional centre is like the chord that holds that kite and the rest of the centres like the tail of the kite while the child holding them all in the wind is each of our lives. The individual meets the human in the kite itself, in Real I. The sense of humanness of all men and women is a quality of Real I or consciousness. The knowing that we are each an equally necessary and wonderful aspect of the whole.

248. formerfofer - January 6, 2009

DC wrote:

“If a school, who gave them, as students, the right to proclaim when they graduated? ”

DC, do you think a person who has become a conscious being (which I’m presuming is what you mean by graduated) needs to ask or await anyone’s permission to be?

Imagine, a conscious being asks his/her teacher, “Please teacher can I now have your permission to be what I have become?”

Or maybe the newly fledged conscious being hangs around impatiently waiting for some announcement. I don’t think so. Wouldn’t they just get on with being what they know they are?

” And officials of spiritual schools (higher forces) seem to suggest that one graduates when one drops the body of this present life. ”

DC, when and where did anyone ever suggest that?

If by “graduate” you mean become a conscious being, then you seem to be saying that Robert could not graduate from his school (if he was in one) until he was dead. Since he is still walking the planet then, according to your statement, he cannot have graduated/be a conscious being (so why are you following him?). Or, he has graduated from a school and is therefore dead?!? Doesn’t make sense does it?

“Once again; all I’ve said in my time on the blog is that I found my way in the FoF, and that way works for me. Period. I also know many others the FoF works for; I am with them on a daily basis.”

Are you sure the FoF way is working for you? What do you mean by “works for me”?

formerfofer
(1978-1992)

249. fofblogmoderator - January 6, 2009

241, 246 and 248 are newly moderated

Mr Cardiac, I urge you to read #241

250. Vena - January 7, 2009

DC:

“Believing does not count, it is worth nothing.”

How true; that is why man is given to power to verify.
________________________________________________________
Fellowship zealots claim to have verified things that can not be known. It is usually just belief, imagination, wishful thinking or more often what Ouspensky called “lying”.

These claims are no different than the claims of those fundamentalist Christians who believie in such things as “the Rapture”.

251. dick moron - January 7, 2009

235 Daily Cardiac

As Gurdjieff said the K of C is capable of speaking to animals. This is useful to many people; Vets immediately come to mind. By the way, some years ago the Vets name in the OH area was Wayne Wolff. Influence C apparently has a cunning sense of humor.

The function known as the “gateway to higher worlds” is the Nine Of Hearts; also one of the least developed in ordinary life as a “normal” existence can be fulfilled without it’s use or development. Through the Nine of Hearts one can receive instructions from Angels.
_____________________

OK. This drivel sure sounds like it is being fed word for word to our robot mouthpiece DC from Mr. Bob Burton himself. Who else would be so arrogant even in FOF to proclaim such “truths”. I detect Burton here as I have in some of Douchebags previous posts.
“Influence C apparently has a cunning sense of humor” sounds like vintage Burton wit. I can picture him smirking and winking at some young fellow as he says it.
If it smells like shit, it usually is shit.

252. The FOFion - January 7, 2009

Several Ex-Students Give In, Rejoin the Fellowship of Friends

NEW YORK (ARK) — After reading numerous posts by Fellowship of Friends apologists on the WordPress FOF Discussion blog, several former members of the FOF finally gave in and returned to the school on Tuesday.

“I don’t know what it was,” one returnee said. “It may have been the repetition, or it may have been the onslaught of FOF dogma. But I couldn’t hold up anymore. I realized that I had to come back.”

Many current members of the cult also decided to stay after hearing the news that “the Nine of Hearts can receive instructions from angels.”

“I wasn’t aware of this,” a long-time member said. “Obviously, this enables the Nine of Hearts to manipulate followers for sex. Hard to disagree with that, so I’m staying put.”

Another former ex-member said it became clear that all of her concerns about the group were unfounded. She said she couldn’t deny — after reading the blog — that it actually wasn’t a destructive doomsday cult run by a malignant narcissist after all.

“I think what impressed me most was that Burton supporters on the blog evade and ignore the most pressing issues so effectively,” she said. “They don’t let anything get in their way — not conscience, and not the truth. Wow, I bet everyone comes back to the Fellowship now, and I bet everyone stays.”

However, one report suggests it may not be a done deal.

“I heard from a good source,” one observer said, “that many are trying to make their payments by bartering old Via del Sol Journals and Renaissance Vines — one at a time. I’m not sure that will work.”

253. harryhindsight - January 7, 2009

Daily Smokesomecrack,

“The function known as the “gateway to higher worlds” is the Nine Of Hearts; also one of the least developed in ordinary life as a “normal” existence can be fulfilled without it’s use or development. Through the Nine of Hearts one can receive instructions from Angels.”

Behind the, “Gateway to higher Worlds’ is the garden path which Uncle Bob has been leading you down for some years now.

Uncle Bob has been passing on the instructions he receives from Angels for decades. Apparently one of their most favorite and oft repeated messages is, “C influence want you to take your clothes off”. It’s a sort of esoteric chat up line which I’m told is far more effective than, “I suppose a fuck would be out of the question?”

As for “ordinary life” and a, “normal existence”, presumably you are distinguishing this from your own abnormal life. The one in which you zealously rationalize the demented ramblings of a manipulative sex addict, posing as a spiritual teacher? (let’s forget the addiction to illegally prescribed tranquilizers for the moment).

254. art - January 7, 2009

you want to learn. you’re seeking self knowledge and understanding. you want to know about science, art, philosophy, and religion, and you want to reflect upon the meaning of life and ponder the wonder of the cosmos. you’re looking for a school, and you’re looking for credible sources of information, and credible discussions.

which of the following would you be more likely to choose?

[ ] a school or publication where no critical viewpoints are allowed, and where no respectful differences of opinion are allowed.

[ ] a school or publication where critical viewpoints are allowed, and where respectful differences of opinion are allowed.

one or the other. you choose.

255. Daily Cardiac - January 7, 2009

Vonlenska – 246:

“Maybe you could explain the process of verification to us. Properly, mind – give us a thought out description of the process.”

I did, several pages ago.

256. nigel harris price - January 7, 2009

I wonder what art-form REB has, as a teacher? I remember him saying that “Technology is our art-form”, which I suppose made all the computer-based employee (a fashionable profession, is it not?) students feel good. I suppose he would say to any student in the corporate headhunter business, “Dear, you have finance in essence”
…..Nigel.

257. Associated Press - January 7, 2009

Real news item:

Death of Travolta’s son raises mmedical questions
[Poster’s note: Travoltas are Scientologists]
Jan 6, 2009
By LINDSEY TANNER
[Poster’s selected quotation:
“Scientology is a religion,” he said. “We deal with the spirit, and mental and spiritual factors that affect someone’s happiness and well-being.”
Poster’s note: They probably believed they were doing the right thing. Sad.]

Millions of children and adults have seizures in the United States, but dying from one is rare. That only adds to the confusion and mystery surrounding the life and death of Jett Travolta, the 16-year-old son of actors John Travolta and Kelly Preston.

The death certificate lists a seizure as the cause of death, according to an undertaker in the Bahamas, where the boy died Friday. Family representatives and lawyers declined requests Tuesday for more information, fueling speculation that has swirled for years about the boy’s health.

A Travolta attorney said the teen had a history of seizures, and John Travolta has said his son was successfully treated when he was 2 for a rare disease called Kawasaki syndrome, which can lead to heart disease and related problems.

Medical specialists who did not treat the boy told The Associated Press on Tuesday that while Kawasaki syndrome is poorly understood, it’s extremely unlikely the disease had anything to do with the teen’s death.

Gossip magazines and blogs long have suggested the boy also had autism – a claim John Travolta denied. Autism is frequently accompanied by seizures that experts believe may stem from the same brain abnormalities that cause the developmental disorder.

Dr. Michael Kohrman, a University of Chicago pediatric neurologist, said up to one-third of children with autism have some sort of seizure disorder.

Still, there are dozens of other causes of seizures. Recurrent seizures are sometimes called epilepsy and are caused by abnormal electrical activity in the brain. These affect more than 3 million Americans.

Mild seizures can be barely noticeable; severe ones can cause convulsing and loss of consciousness.

“Sudden death in epilepsy is not an unheard-of phenomenon,” said Dr. Bruce Cohen, a staff neurologist at the Cleveland Clinic.

It can happen with seizures lasting more than 15 or 20 minutes, typically when medicine stops working or if patients quit taking medicine, Cohen said. One way death occurs in these cases is respiratory muscles weaken from prolonged convulsions and the patient stops breathing, he explained.

More rarely, he said, about one in 1,000 epileptics die each year from a condition doctors call “sudep,” or a sudden unexplained death that typically occurs with no sign of a seizure. Whether this happened to Jett Travolta or whether autopsy officials in the Bahamas know that term is uncertain.

“We’re dealing with a massive lack of information,” Cohen said.

Michael Ossi, an attorney for the Travoltas, and Samantha Mast, a Travolta publicist, told the AP by e-mail that they would not discuss details of the boy’s illness.

Jett Travolta’s body was cremated, and the autopsy report has not been released.

The Travoltas have said little about their son’s condition and his medical treatment over the years. The couple are Scientologists, followers of the controversial religion created by science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard.

The church is not commenting specifically on the Travolta case. But church policy is for members to seek a doctor for medical treatment of a physical condition, including taking any drugs prescribed.

“The bottom line is that Scientologists seek conventional medical treatment for medical conditions,” said Tommy Davis, a spokesman for the Church of Scientology International in Los Angeles.

Kawasaki syndrome, the disease the family has said sickened Jett when he was a toddler, can cause inflammation in blood vessels and arteries. It typically features a persistent high fever accompanied by symptoms that can include bloodshot eyes; swelling in hands, feet and neck lymph nodes; a red rash on the arms and legs; and cracked, swollen lips.

Most cases occur in the first five years of life, and if treated promptly with aspirin and intravenous gamma globulin, children are essentially cured, said Dr. Cody Meissner, chief of pediatric infectious diseases at Tufts Medical Center in Boston.

While inflammation can sometimes lead to burst arteries or heart damage, Meissner said most children have no complications. And those who do would develop them soon after diagnosis – not several years later, Meissner said.

“If 10 years or more had gone by, it would be very unlikely that seizure activity could be attributed to Kawasaki disease,” Meissner said.

Kelly Preston blamed household cleaners and fertilizers for the disease and said a detoxification program based on Scientology teachings helped improve his health, according to People magazine.

Meissner said there is scientific evidence linking professional-strength carpet cleaners with the disease.

Davis, the Scientology spokesman, acknowledged the detoxification program, but said its benefits are spiritual.

“Scientology is a religion,” he said. “We deal with the spirit, and mental and spiritual factors that affect someone’s happiness and well-being.”

AP Religion Writer Eric Gorski in Denver contributed to this report.

258. Yesri Baba - January 7, 2009

252 The FOFion

Several Ex-Students Give In, Rejoin the Fellowship of Friends

I know I’m giving it serious consideration. Now that ‘cracksmoker’ (thanks harryhiney) has informed me that the nine of hearts can talk to angels ( and not just any angels but Angels with a capital A, probably the only ones worthy of crack’s attention).
It was my ignorance while in the fof that led me to believe that it would be many lifetimes before I attained the lofty and distant Higher Centers ( glory be to them and may God forgive me for uttering their Holy name) to enable me to speak to the Heavenly Hosts.
Now that I know that the emotional part of the intellectual part of the lower emotional center can enable me to converse with the Fairies from Beyond, I’m going to start socking away some cash and stocking up on ‘Extenze’.
I know it is going to be tough but if I hang around the Galleria and watch a few slide shows I should be able to squeeze out a minute or two of the Queen of King of Hearts (can you say it that way or didn’t I verify it right?) so I can have a word or two with my favorite spook.
Oh, sorry, I mean Spook.
I won’t waste my chance. I will ask him, I assume it will be a him, to pass a message on to crackhead: Shut the fuck up!

259. Yesri Baba - January 7, 2009

“Maybe you could explain the process of verification to us. Properly, mind – give us a thought out description of the process.”

I did, several pages ago.

————————

You did not. You posted some drooling garbage about verifying verification. If you think anyone would look back one post to review any thought out description from you unless they were out of ipecac you’re crazy. But then, that has been clearly established.

260. nigel harris price - January 7, 2009

259 Yesri Baba

Getting more serious (yes, I mean it), it has been my experience that Higher Centres are latent in individuals and make themselves apparent at certain (crucial?) times in a person’s life. My centre of gravity is in the moving part of the King of Hearts and I have spent almost most of my life training my moving centre in a craft-form. Some students (also emotionally centred?) in the FOF thought I was centred in the moving centre, because they could not understand how I was able to produce art pieces by hand if I were not. Some students thought I was instinctively centred, mainly because my fear feature would become apparent in defending a position in situations. One student even photographed me for the intellectual centre in my early FOF years, because I could remember angles from the work-books quite well.

The point is, WE MUST COME TO UNDERSTAND OURSELVES AND WHAT WE ARE DOING IN LIFE. It is no use expecting a REB/guru character to tell us whatswot and then ‘prancing our essence around Apollo’ announcing “Robert says………..”. Over to you, DC…..Nigel.

261. nigel harris price - January 7, 2009

260 nigel harris price

Sorry, 258, Yesri Baba…..Nigel.

262. Crouching Tiger - January 7, 2009

Elena.

I didn’t post Bennett’s comments to start another theoretical discussion about the various parts of centres. To be honest, you can see from DC’s responses that he’s actually very cosy about talking about the work in such terms. Too cosy.

The one and only reason for posting them was to show that RB tends to have a very negative view of some of our actual functions. I attended numerous events where he talked about the endless fight between the nine of hearts and the nine of clubs.

So he isn’t a teacher who wants to his students to have everything working together inside them, co-ordinated. What he is doing is demonizing some functions in favour of others… A very dangerous policy.

Bennett’s comments – although pretty turgid – helped to make the point that 4th Way teaching sees all the functions as playing a positive role. Otherwise you’ll end up split down the middle, with no hope of balance.

DC. Ultimately everything works for you at the moment because you believe Burton’s a conscious being, not because you’ve verified it – his sexual antics, his need for money, his deviant version of 4th Way ideas. If you take away that belief, even for a day, and simply observe him as you’d observe anyone else, you might come to a different conclusion.

263. Ill Never Tell - January 7, 2009

Concerning the lineage of the Fellowship of Friends, AKA Poopway to Presence, and Robert Relieve Burden: This avenue of the Fork Way can, unmistakably, trace its connexion to real esoteric stools of wordless antiquity by the use of petrified stools (or is that petrified fools?) in the judicious study of coprolites that mastodon deposited as excreta from posterior for posterity (exempli gratia: herd it through the grapevine). Mastodon, being related to elephants, could never forget; which is the same thing as always remember (self). Thereby lineage is preserved. Additionally, this method of record preservation has been scientifically found even more reliable than oral traditions (Can’t forget a pecker once you’ve seen one that up close and personal.), genetic code testing (sea men sampling), radio-carbon dating (man-dick tourney dating) and/or spectrum analysis. It is sometimes referred to as rectum anal assist. No sh!ft?! Ain’t no bull sh!ft; it’s mastodon sh!ft. When your sh!ft comes in, take it.

264. elena - January 7, 2009

Crouching Tiger: “I didn’t post Bennett’s comments to start another theoretical discussion about the various parts of centres. To be honest, you can see from DC’s responses that he’s actually very cosy about talking about the work in such terms. Too cosy.”

I didn’t think you had, just that talking about a centre always helps if connected to the rest. Daily Cardiac’s tactic seems more obvious each day: affirm theory where possible and disregard the facts. I wonder what that form of lunacy is called besides brainwashed. In the long run it must have severe personal consequences like making up a reality so that you don’t have to acknowledge reality itself which is what Mr. Haven did day in and day out, planning each hour for hours and feeling wonderful about the fact that “reality” was posted on the refrigerator for everyone to follow precisely and get perfectly mad at me because I wouldn’t look at it and he had to keep telling me what the next manifestation of reality was supposed to be.

What is interesting about the phenomenon is that they hold on to the physical with desperation. The physical and the “timed” as if their sense of security relied on their watch and their schedule and could not rely on being there enough for unexpected events which either make them very upset or simply do not compute them.

This does seem to be Daily Cardiac’s pattern:
“I don’t compute facts”
“I don’t compute questions on dignity”
“I don’t compute decency or integrity”

Man is not a machine but if you want to become one and not compute 99% of the world please join the Fellowship of Friends Cult.

265. elena - January 7, 2009

Say Daily Card,

For someone who is in contact with Angels, don’t you think that after over thirty-five years your Teacher and you would not have something to say about human dignity and other positive emotions?

Positive emotions are the outcome of the Work, why do you think none have ever been developed in the Fellowship but rape, extortion, fraud and delusion are rampant?

Dearest, does denial about these facts make you more conscious?

266. nigel harris price - January 7, 2009

265 elena

Keep that thought and maybe email to the lawyers at info@justanswer.com. They will be interested to hear about the contradictions in the FOF and probably give you some stunning answers…..Nigel.

267. art - January 7, 2009

Crouching Tiger: “So he isn’t a teacher who wants to his students to have everything working together inside them, co-ordinated.”

burton is opposed to his followers thinking and observing in earnest. he’s opposed to them coming up with their own ideas about what they’re seeing. he’s opposed to his followers discussing any ideas that might call into question that he even is a “teacher.”

he’s opposed to the mental health of his followers. but to maintain an equilibrium and to promote a pseudo mental health, burton needs people to compartmentalize their thoughts. if they think of him having sex with his followers, they must not simultaneously think about love and conscience. they need to think about love and conscience in relation to other topics. keep those two ideas separate:

— rb has sex with a LOT of his followers
— love and conscience

separate them. separate them. separate them.

268. Daily Cardiac - January 7, 2009

art – 254:

“you want to learn. you’re seeking self knowledge and understanding. you want to know about science, art, philosophy, and religion, and you want to reflect upon the meaning of life and ponder the wonder of the cosmos. you’re looking for a school, and you’re looking for credible sources of information, and credible discussions.

which of the following would you be more likely to choose?

[ ] a school or publication where no critical viewpoints are allowed, and where no respectful differences of opinion are allowed.

[ ] a school or publication where critical viewpoints are allowed, and where respectful differences of opinion are allowed.

one or the other. you choose.”

Gurdjief (or Ouspensky) was reported to have said that esoteric schools are the least democratic of all organizations.

People who are attracted to schools don’t want to give their own viewpoints; they are bored silly with their own viewpoints. They want to receive a conscious viewpoint – something they can’t find on their own.

269. art - January 7, 2009

dc writes: “People who are attracted to school don’t want to give their own viewpoints.”

wow, no comment.

other than it’s interesting timing based on my post 267, which was entered simultaneously to yours:

“burton is opposed to his followers thinking and observing in earnest. he’s opposed to them coming up with their own ideas about what they’re seeing. he’s opposed to his followers discussing any ideas that might call into question that he even is a “teacher.”

270. nigel harris price - January 7, 2009

268 Daily Cardiac

“People who are attracted to schools don’t want to give their own viewpoints; they are bored silly with their own viewpoints. They want to receive a conscious viewpoint – something they can’t find on their own.”

A conscious viewpoint does not mean that one permanently adopts the viewpoint of the Teacher, but uses that as a starting point to PRODUCE ONE’S OWN CONSCIOUSNESS, THEREFORE ONE’S OWN VIEWPOINT. You forget that School Work, if it exists, implies movement…..Nigel.

271. elena - January 7, 2009

The most wonderful thing just happened! My younger daughter called me and we “COMMUNICATED” for two hours and she was happy!

It is the first time since she was eleven. She’s twenty one now so there’s still time for us!

My gratitude extends to all of you!

272. elena - January 7, 2009

Nigel, you’re absolutely nuts and so am I! Welcome to the Club!

273. Opus 111 - January 7, 2009

DC

Burton is really lucky to have people like stay in the FOF. You said that FoF staying is made especially difficult in order to keep the school at the level of the fastest students..

It is also my observation that “the fastest students” leave fast, most of them have probably left by now. In fact, the best grading for a fast student is how fast it takes that student to recognize REB and his organization as the fraud it is.

The slow students, meanwhile, keep on getting sheared, separated from their money, integrity and conscience.

274. art - January 7, 2009

nigel 270,
right. movement, flexibility of thought, common sense, open mindedness, creative thinking, etc.

but yes, when someone disagrees that critical thinking and thinking for yourself (or let’s just call it “thinking” period) are important parts of learning and self-knowledge, spiritual growth, or even just normal functioning as a human… hmm, something is seriously off there.

from that point on, not much of a substantial discussion can take place with someone who holds to that premise.

275. elena - January 7, 2009

DC: “People who are attracted to schools don’t want to give their own viewpoints; they are bored silly with their own viewpoints. They want to receive a conscious viewpoint – something they can’t find on their own.”

You’re a true jewel Daily Card, I say we name you man of the year for corruption. Of course you’re right! Why would sleeping machines, third class citizens and women want to express their boring selves?

No wonder you’re all so happy in there!

Bravo. Congratulations! You’ve won this time!

276. elena - January 7, 2009

Forgot to ask, why are you interested in expressing yours? Are you the mouth of God?

277. James Mclemore - January 7, 2009

270. nigel harris price

“A conscious viewpoint does not mean that one permanently adopts the viewpoint of the Teacher, but uses that as a starting point to PRODUCE ONE’S OWN CONSCIOUSNESS, THEREFORE ONE’S OWN VIEWPOINT. You forget that School Work, if it exists, implies movement…..Nigel.”

Nicely said. Yes, I suspect for the followers there is the illusion of ‘movement’ with their sequences and struggles with the lower self etc. Hoever, with Burton, I don’t think there could be real movement, or any possibility to graduate; no birth. And what is left unfortunately looks like grazing sheep, perhaps in the grips of a false pregnancy, that are dreaming about movement and birth.

278. Daily Cardiac - January 7, 2009

Opus 111 – 273:

“The slow students, meanwhile, keep on getting sheared, separated from their money, integrity and conscience.”

The obvious answer is that people who stay are getting something that those who left did not or could not get. Your own words are your chief critic. No one would stay in the environment you describe. All men strive to be happy. What makes one person happy makes another person sad. Regardless of what the FoF is, school or otherwise, people who join and stay are exercising their right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Schools are not for everyone. But if someone found themselves in a school and it turned out not to be what was envisioned it would be very hard to stay.

It would be like someone deciding to be a soldier without having any idea what boot camp was like. Getting into boot camp and witnessing the “abuses” might change their entire outlook about being a soldier. This happens with regularity. Then again going through boot camp just makes some people want to be a soldier all the more.

279. Opus 111 - January 7, 2009

DC

My point is simple. I do not whether Burton is conscious (in the traditional 4th way sense, able to reach higher state of consciousness on his volition). I have come to the conclusion, along with many others, that he is unfit as a teacher, and that he is a very flawed man.

I think you are happy to be a “professional seeker” and Burton is glad to keep you and those who remain members in that venue. The analogy of boot camp you like to use (“no pain, no gain”) illustrates that fact that at he end of the camp, you are still a soldier all the more, having lost tract of what this all about.

To use another corny metaphore, if money is what you wish to acquire in life, you can try to find people who have it to learn from them. Depending on how you go about it, you may end up learning how to:
1. Work hard and save.
2. Devise a Ponzi scheme.
3. Steal from people.
4. Make counterfeit money.

280. dragon - January 7, 2009

DC,

“All men strive to happiness.”
—————————–

More or less!

“What makes one person happy makes another person sad.”
——————————————-

You don’t understand the deeper meaning of HAPPINESS!

You live only on your own responsibility, at your own risk.

Is that CONSCIOUSNESS?

Try to give a definition of YOUR HAPPINESS!

281. Panorea - January 7, 2009

DC,

I do not know where you live, but you seem to be unaware of the tragic situation many current members find themselves. When you say “No one would stay in the environment you describe”, you again appear so ignorant of the difficulties members face when even thinking of leaving the Cult.

There are many of my friends who have been struggling with severe depression and anxiety. These people are “older” students, have worked for the “school” for many years and they have basically sacrificed their lives. There are people who are too old to take a step and many but many people are afraid they will not have any friends or social network outside the FOF.

Many current members stay because their lives are so connected to the FOF they are terrified to even loose the Chains. They have houses that do not sell at the moment. They have jobs closely associated to the FOF and many other numerous restrictions.

It really has nothing to do with “spirituality”, “presence”, or being part of a “school.” It is a damn necessity for so many current members. They have no choice.

There are also members who prefer to stay in the comfortable social environment of their center and have not met Robert for many years. Theirs is another sad story.

I do not know what your story is. You are eager to defend what you “joined” many years ago. As far as I can tell and from the posts I have read, you do not mention anything on a personal level. No mention of other humans in your posts. Are you that lonely, or is this a way of coming across as “neutral”?

What are you?

282. ton - January 7, 2009

DC, you might try wearing a tinfoil helmut…

“Cults have complicated ideologies and practices…. These structures are what allow the cult to control the person. Cults do not want people who are difficult to control.

Thus, while some recruits might be very vulnerable to those who would like to control their thoughts and actions, recruiters look for people they can make vulnerable. The recruiter quoted above also said:

Cults seek out strong, intelligent, idealistic people. They also seek out the rich, no matter what their mental status is.

The goal is make the recruits vulnerable, to get them to give up whatever control over their thoughts and actions they might have. The goal is to make the cult members feel like passengers on a rudderless ship on a stormy sea. The recruiter or cult leader has a rudder and only he can guide the ship to safety.

The techniques available to manipulate the vulnerable are legion. One technique is to give them the love they feel they do not get elsewhere. Convince them that through you and your community they can find what they’re looking for, even if they haven’t got a clue that they’re looking for anything. Convince them that they need faith in you and that you have faith in them. Convince them that their friends and family outside the group are hindrances to their salvation. Isolate them. Only you can give them what they need. You love them. You alone love them. You would die for them. So why wouldn’t they die for you?  But, love alone can only get you so far in winning them over. Fear is a great motivator. Fear that if they leave they’ll be destroyed. Fear that if they don’t cooperate they’ll be condemned. Fear that they can’t make it in this miserable world alone. The manipulator must make the recruit paranoid.

Love and fear may not be enough, however; so guilt must be used, too. Fill them with so much guilt that they will want to police their own thoughts. Remind them that they are nothing alone, but with you and God (or some Power or Technique) they are Everything. Fill them with contempt for themselves, so that they will want to be egoless, selfless, One with You and Yours. You not only strip them of any sense of self, you convince them that the ideal is be without a self. Keep up the pressure. Be relentless. Humiliate them from time to time. Soon they will consider it their duty to humiliate themselves. Control what they read, hear, see. Repeat the messages for eyes and ears. Gradually get them to make commitments, small ones at first, then work your way up until you own their property, their bodies, their souls….”

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2555/do-tinfoil-helmets-provide-adequate-protection-against-mind-control-rays

283. lauralupa - January 7, 2009

“People who are attracted to schools don’t want to give their own viewpoints; they are bored silly with their own viewpoints. They want to receive a conscious viewpoint – something they can’t find on their own.”

thanks DC, now I get it, I was clearly not “school material” from the start… I was under the impression that the whole idea was to learn to clean and shine my own mirror, not to spend my life trying to look through someone else’s

Get out your measuring cups and we’ll play a new game
Come to the front of the class and we’ll measure your brain
We’ll give you a complex and we’ll give it a name

Get out your measuring cups and we’ll play a new game
Can’t have the cream when the crop and the cream are the same
Liquid or gas no more than the glass will contain

When you talk about the hand of glory
A tale that’s rather grim and gory
Is it just another children’s story that’s been de-clawed?
When the tales of brothers Grimm and Gorey have been outlawed

I think they’re gonna make you start over
You don’t want to start over
Put your backpack on your shoulder
Be the good little soldier
Take your places now
‘Cause we’re all predisposed

Measuring cups, play a new game
Front of the class, measure your brain
Give you a complex and we’ll give it a name

When you talk about the hand of glory
A tale that’s rather grim and gory
Is it just another children’s story that’s been de-clawed?
When the tales of brothers Grimm and Gorey have been outlawed

Put your backpack on your shoulder
Be the good little soldier
It’s no different when you’re older
You’re predisposed
That’s all for questions now
The case is closed!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kuKtKxdX0p4

284. Vonlenska - January 7, 2009

Daily Involuntary Blood Pump 255.

Would you mind treating this as a serious question. I would be most grateful if you could explain the process of verification to me.
If you can give me the page and post number of your post on this subject, that would help, but maybe you could spare the time to give a more thorough description and expanation.
Thanks

285. Daily Cardiac - January 7, 2009

Panorea – 281:

I have no interest in calling you a liar. On some level you probably believe what you write. I don’t see the people you describe. I don’t know anyone who knows them. The people I meet at Apollo and in centers around the world want to be in the school. They are very grateful for having found the school.

Now if the people you describe actually exist they still don’t cancel out or negate the people who want to be in the school. Where does that leave us?

What stops people, as you describe, from leaving? Because they are depressed? That doesn’t make sense. If the organization is depressing you I would think leaving would be the first option. If they are susceptible to depression and would be that way in or out of the FoF that’s another story.

If they don’t want to leave because of their friends then they obviously value those friends. They are getting something of value that overrides their desire to leave. If someone gets an ideal job offer in another state but he or she values the place where they live they have a choice to make. They can’t have both. Any choice is a sacrifice. Life is cruel like that. Man was made for joy and woe.

Panorea – “As far as I can tell and from the posts I have read, you do not mention anything on a personal level. No mention of other humans in your posts”

My posts are about my expereinces. My aim in being here is to chronicle my experiences in the FoF. My own experiences are the only ones I can speak for truthfully. At the same time my understandings are similar to many others in the FoF.

Panorea – “Many current members stay because their lives are so connected to the FOF they are terrified to even loose the Chains. They have houses that do not sell at the moment. They have jobs closely associated to the FOF and many other numerous restrictions.”

Again, life is about choices. If these people actually exist they joined of a free will and they can leave of the same free will. Victims are forced to act against their will. If people cannot act on their own impulses to leave they cannot be termed victims; just confused or conflicted individuals. You can’t blame the school for someone’s indecision. Sadly, many people become victims by being born. They are victims because they perceive themselves as victims. They don’t fit anywhere on earth. “Earth is a pain factory” – GIG.

The school works for the vast majority of its members as I observe. I’m not ready to relinquish my understandings for yours just because you see things different from me.

My own verifications led me to my choices. I would be a fool to abandon them because an anonymous poster says “I’m right and you’re wrong, see as right what I say is right, not what you have verified for yourself.”

Sweet dreams are made of this
Who am I to disagree?
I travel the world
And the seven seas–
Everybody’s looking for something.
Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused.

Eurythmics

286. art - January 7, 2009

daily liar-diac:
I have no interest in calling you a liar. … I don’t see the people you describe. I don’t know anyone who knows them. The people I meet at Apollo and in centers around the world want to be in the school. They are very grateful for having found the school.”

what’s the problem — then — with having open meetings, where people can discuss whatever they want without fear of being “ex-studented”. If you’re unaware of any discontent, why the worry? Sheez, sounds like everyone is doing just fine and is very happy, so what could anyone possibly say that would harm your beloved cult or cause harm to themselves?

any, just kidding you; because i know you have no interest in answering those questions. and i have no “interest” in calling you a liar, either.

you just are.

after all, you’re speaking for burton… what does anyone expect?

287. Walter J. Tanner - January 7, 2009

Hi everyone,

Crouching Tiger wrote:

—————
As Gurdjieff himself said,

“There is a weakness which everyone who works with me, must destroy. You believe. You must never believe. You must criticize everything, accept nothing which you cannot prove, like two and two make four. Believing does not count, it is worth nothing. You believe, you want to pass on your beliefs with your emanations.”

As such, the fellowship stands in direct opposition to the 4th Way, and probably most of the other traditions it thinks to ‘incorporate’.
—————

I spent a lot of time researching the evangelical Christian worldview, and was always surprised how little these Christians actually read the bible. I think it’s the same with Fourth Wayers.

Here’s some more authentic Gurdjieff for you, which sounds absolutely congruent with the mindset of the FoF when I was a member, 1992-99. (All these are from In Search of the Miraculous, I got a PDF of it at 4shared.com and just did a search for “teacher” and “submit.”)

————–
Actually a pupil can never see the level of the teacher. This is a law. No one can see higher than his own level.

Their first task is to understand this aim, that is, the aim of the teacher. When they have understood this aim, although at first not fully, their own work becomes more conscious and consequently can give better results. But, as I have already said, it often happens that the aim of the teacher cannot be explained at the beginning.

The next demand made of members of a group is that they must remember why they came to the group. They came to learn and to work on themselves and to learn and to work not as they understand it themselves but as they are told to. If, therefore, once they are in the group, they begin to feel or to express mistrust towards the teacher, to criticize his actions, to find that they understand better how the group should be conducted and especially if they show lack of external considering in relation to the teacher, lack of respect for him, asperity, impatience, tendency to argument, this at once puts an end to any possibility of work, for work is possible only as long as people remember that they have come to learn and not to teach.

But a man who is capable of attaining anything comes sooner or later to the conclusion that his freedom is illusion and he agrees to sacrifice this illusion. He voluntarily becomes a slave. He does what he is told, says what he is told, and thinks what he is told. He is not afraid of losing anything because he knows that he has nothing. And in this way he acquires everything.

This kind of super-effort becomes still more difficult when I do not decide upon it myself but obey a teacher who at an unexpected moment requires from me to make fresh efforts when I have decided that efforts for the day are over.

And besides, the most difficult thing here is that it is necessary to obey someone, to submit to someone. If a man could invent difficulties and sacrifices for himself, he would sometimes go very far. But the point here is that this is not possible. It is necessary to obey another or to follow the direction of general work, the control of which can belong only to one person. Such submission is the most difficult thing that there can be for a man who thinks that he is capable of deciding anything or of doing anything. Of course, when he gets rid of these fantasies and sees what he really is, the difficulty disappears. This, however, can only take place in the course of work.
————–

Daily Cardiac: the above are your talking points. You really don’t need to get into these convoluted arguments with ex-members, G. lays it out perfectly for you.

Now as to what the orthodox Gurdjieffians say: “Well, you only obey the teacher as an experiment, you continuously verify,” which I guess is the point of Crouching Tiger’s original quote. But let us not deny for a minute that the Fourth Way is an authoritarian way, I mean if you are in a Fourth Way group (and you’re not the teacher!) it is because you think you are lacking something, like will or conscience or whatever and there’s this guy who can deliver it to you!

As to whether Robert “just wants money, power and sex,” I’ll dispute it unless you take out the ‘just’. Of course he wants money, power and sex (none of you out there want these things?), but he also wants adoration, to feel like he’s a part of something bigger and important, and validation that his life is meaningful (Robert is actually very insecure, which shows in his more, um, unguarded moments). What’s pathetic is that he can only get those latter things from people who think he’s Jesus Christ, and in the process of pulling that off has alienated at least 15,000 people, some of whom vehemently hate him. Its proof to me that whatever attainment he once achieved has now crystallized and he’s “walking dead.”

And that latest piece of FOFian wit, I’ve actually thought of re-joining (I was kicked out, but “am welcome to return”), just to Matrix-like try and save some of the people in. It could work until they try and cash the check. I do think, however, that everyone who can should go to a prospective student meeting and ask uncomfortable questions. Report back here.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

288. ton - January 7, 2009

287 re: the gurdjieff material — since it’s from ‘the horse’s mouth’ (or it’s arse), some may still consider this stuff ‘gospel’ but i say you have to consider the source of all that nonsense and the motivation behind it… gurdjieff made his living by manipulation of people who were looking for a way to abdicate personal responsibility… once upon a time when i was much younger this made a strong impression on me, but now what i read here is a blueprint for attracting aimless, weak and irresponsible people who are looking for an authority figure to tell them what to do with their lives. Been there done that… you live and you learn.

Here are some of Jim Jones statements during the suicide of more than 900 people at Jonestown in November 1978: he was another ‘teacher’ who assumed responsibility for others… and how did that work out for those under his ‘tutelage?’

” … I’m tired, I’ve done my best to make you live well. Everybody dies, somewhere hope goes away. I want to choose how I want to die. I am tired of this hellish torture of having other people’s lives in my hands. I have sacrificed my life, I have died every day to give you peace. If we cannot live in peace, let us die in peace. It was God who said so. I tried to avoid this happening, but I now see that it is the will of the Supreme Being. We are not committing suicide, this a revolutionary action, don’t be afraid of dying. You are going to see people landing here. They are going to torture our children, they are going to torture our old people. How many are dead? O my God, Almighty God, when you go towards God, this is the only way to go. Let’s put an end to it, let’s put an end to it, we must die with a little dignity. Children, it’s just something to put you to sleep. O my God, mother, mother, mother…”

289. harryhindsight - January 7, 2009

Daily Duckgoquack

“My own experiences are the only ones I can speak for truthfully.”

Try to see the difference between “can” and “do” D.C.

I.M.O. you do not speak truthfully because you no longer can.

290. art - January 7, 2009

ton 288: “you have to consider the source of all that nonsense and the motivation behind it… gurdjieff made his living by manipulation of people who were looking for a way to abdicate personal responsibility… once upon a time when i was much younger this made a strong impression on me, but now what i read here is a blueprint for attracting aimless, weak and irresponsible people who are looking for an authority figure to tell them what to do with their lives. Been there done that… you live and you learn.

“Here (in post 288 above) are some of Jim Jones statements during the suicide of more than 900 people at Jonestown in November 1978: he was another ‘teacher’ who assumed responsibility for others… and how did that work out for those under his ‘tutelage?’”

**********************
when ton posts, i sometimes picture an army of law enforcement types surrounding a handful of thieves and con men who are smugly sitting in a dark room somewhere counting their money, smoking cigars, and laughing.

ton is the one who breaks down the door.

thanks, ton… your words continue to shine a thousand floodlights on the insanity.

291. brucelevy - January 8, 2009

285. Daily Cardiac – January 7, 2009
Panorea – 281:
“I have no interest in calling you a liar.”

translation: you’re a liar. There are no people who are currently trapped in the FOF by circumstance, and never have been.

I have no interest in calling you a self-deluded loser.

“What stops people, as you describe, from leaving? Because they are depressed?”

Another lie. It was clearly and concisely described how people are trapped.

“My own experiences are the only ones I can speak for truthfully. At the same time my understandings are similar to many others in the FoF.”

Can you contradict yourself in two sentences or less?

“Again, life is about choices. If these people actually exist they joined of a free will and they can leave of the same free will. Victims are forced to act against their will. If people cannot act on their own impulses to leave they cannot be termed victims; just confused or conflicted individuals. You can’t blame the school for someone’s indecision. Sadly, many people become victims by being born. They are victims because they perceive themselves as victims. They don’t fit anywhere on earth. “Earth is a pain factory” – GIG.”

You are a clearly a sociopath.

“The school works for the vast majority of its members as I observe.”

If you just took your head out of your ass I’m sure your observations would be clearer.

292. elena - January 8, 2009

To all,

I wonder for how long are we going to allow Daily Card to play yo-yo with us without going anywhere? Is it not clear by now that he has a particular and definite agenda and is pretty successful from one point of view? Have others observed that he too has his own aim in terms of legalities? When he stated recently that the blog has the one and only aim to destroy the Fellowship, isn’t he looking for affirmations hard enough from the blog itself that can justify legal action against it? At least that is what I understood and took it up so that they cannot target the blog but the agenda is clear. And here in post 278 DC. “Regardless of what the FoF is, school or otherwise, people who join and stay are exercising their right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” is he not trying to use the laws in their benefit? Wouldn’t anyone in their place?

What seems clear by now is that there’s no dialogue here, no communication, no human contact but a very definite agenda with interests. Is it worth playing the game?

How many of you think this is sincerely a student? I do. I would swear that this is Girard Haven but then I would also swear that there are fifty or more Girard Haven’s in the Fellowship. They were all cut with the same scissors and understand the pattern and the method in detail. I could not believe it was so bad at the beginning of my blogging because so many spoke like him but it is clear now. So it doesn’t matter if it’s Girard or another member or someone they actually paid to make the points and lead the blog to a place in which it too can be attacked legally. It doesn’t look like they are very successful but I think it’s worth being aware and then questioning, where do many here wish to go with Daily Cardiac? Yes, he’s on the boat with us and without us, where are we going? Is he playing with us? Using us? Tiring us? What are his aims and how far has he gotten to them? Has he really helped us more than we’ve helped him and the Fellowship? For how long can we turn around this dead pole?

Walter Tanner,

Thank you for offering your research, unfortunately it helps Daily Cardiac and the Fellowship and I don’t understand your aim in helping them.

True that those things are in the workbooks but they prove how severely the Fellowship misused them not how accurately they followed them. The way Gurdjieff, Ouspensky or Collin worked with individual students has nothing to do with the way Robert works with members. He only works with individual members to fuck them high. He did not even work with Girard who he let lose to interpret and corrupt himself, his life and the work as badly as he could.

The System was presented by Gurdjieff and he was so afraid of presenting it that his works are almost impossible to interpret. Ouspensky made it more practical but also more academic and Collin tried to connect esoteric knowledge with science in a beautiful work known as the Theory of Conscious Influence. In all three the work was alive and moving, a work in process. The page you present can be interpreted and corrupted in the way the Fellowship did, but it was written for a definite context that does not necessarily apply to the Fellowship. If you confront that page with the idea that the Fourth Way happens in life, you can as easily verify that the Fellowship separated its members from life, their families, friends, humanity. Any theory can be bent to make hell or heaven and the Fellowship bent it to make hell of it.

What is your purpose in presenting material that justifies them? I gather it is simply a thoughtless mistake.

293. Daily Cardiac - January 8, 2009

Lauralupa – 283:

“thanks DC, now I get it, I was clearly not “school material” from the start… I was under the impression that the whole idea was to learn to clean and shine my own mirror, not to spend my life trying to look through someone else’s

Of course the aim in putting oneself under the will of a teacher is to acquire a higher viewpoint and apply it to one’s life. That is exactly what people in the school are doing on a daily basis. Spending one’s life “trying to look through someone else’s mirror” is your convention.

Who would even offer such a system, and who would buy it? I’m sure you read work books while in the school. Did any of the work books describe that this is the goal of schools, to see through someone else’s mirror? The goal is exactly what you stated – to clean and shine your own mirror, which you obviously felt needed shining since you sought out a school.

The problem as I see it is that you don’t want me to be saying what I am saying so you are reading it, not as it appears on the page, but how you want it to appear. You are not the only one who reads my posts this way; in fact most ex (-) members do this. The things I’m saying are not difficult to comprehend but since they are opposed to your thought/belief system you feel the need to put them through a filter so that they come out as not as what I said but what you want me to say.

Often when I read replies to my posts I find an entirely different interpretation of what I said, or people will use what I said as a springboard to comment on what I did not say, or what I said in a fraudian slip kind of way.

The reason for this is simple. Since I am a supporter of FoF ex members begin reading the comments from the point of view of how they can be refuted or deconstructed instead of trying to “hear” what the supporter is saying. Something as simple as this comment – “The FoF works for me; it is what I was looking for”, cannot be taken at face value because it is not in the general interest of ex members to hear that the FoF works for anyone definitively.

294. elena - January 8, 2009

Again in that last post to Panorea we can see clearly the what did you call it Ton? circular thinking? It is just a technique, that one or many members called Daily Cardiac are using. He is writing so often that it would be difficult for one person to do it unless they are of course, as mad as Nigel or my self!

Wasn’t that same circular thinking what Girard did with us when we were inside turning each persons questions against them one way or another to fit the benefit for Robert? What is the difference here?

I happen to still be able to state that I love Girard enough to not wish him any harm but I am also able to state without the slightest doubt that Girard cannot stop hurting people to protect the Fellowship. He is trapped in two personalities. He was unable to not let the Fellowship hurt him and cannot stop himself from hurting other people. It is clear that Daily Card is another one and we well know that Robert and many more are too.

As Bruce says, these are sociopaths, psychopaths. These are dangerous people. Please consider this seriously.

295. Jomo Piñata - January 8, 2009

293/Lacuna Piñata

fraudian slip

Thou sayest.

296. elena - January 8, 2009

Daily Card,

The fact that things look alike on a mirror does not mean they contain the same meaning or direction. You are supporting a vampire and that alone makes you sick no matter how much you look like the rest of us.

297. ton - January 8, 2009

elena 296
what do you call a vampire who prefers semen to blood?
a hint… first name begins with R______ etc…

dc 293 your ‘fraudian slip’ is one excellent example of a freudian slip… textbook. you are certainly ‘a case’ — i really have to feel sorry for you.

298. Yesri Baba - January 8, 2009

295 Jomo

I thought he wrote that on purpose. If he didn’t it is funnier than hell.

299. Daily Cardiac - January 8, 2009

Jomo Piñata – 295:

Just checking to see if you are around; I know how to get you involved, you intellectual rascle.

300. art - January 8, 2009

“… or what I said in a fraudian slip kind of way.”

yes, definitely not intentional.
and it is both funny and sad.

and he/she is already trying to cover for it in 299.

(it’s “rascal” by the way, which was one of burton’s favorite words for Da Vinci — the rascally higher force who made burton’s life miserable by making people drop fine china and so forth.)

301. Daily Cardiac - January 8, 2009

art – 286:

“what’s the problem — then — with having open meetings, where people can discuss whatever they want without fear of being “ex-studented”. If you’re unaware of any discontent, why the worry? Sheez, sounds like everyone is doing just fine and is very happy, so what could anyone possibly say that would harm your beloved cult or cause harm to themselves?”

See Walter J Tanner – 287:

302. Daily Cardiac - January 8, 2009

art – 300:

The fact that you and your co-hearts were ready to pounce all over a typo says more about you than me; in a fraudian way, that is.

303. Daily Cardiac - January 8, 2009

art to ton:

Allow myself to introduce myself.

304. elena - January 8, 2009

ton,
semen, money, power, lust, greed,

299, Daily Card, are you trying to sound cute?
You are supporting a vampire and that alone makes you sick no matter how much you look like the rest of us.

305. art - January 8, 2009

dc, maybe take a break from whatever it is you’re smoking right now. ton and i are two different former cult members who once made the error of semi-believing the drivel of the malignant narcissist named robert hurl burton.

and by the way, there’s nothing in walter’s post that answers my questions. but that’s ok as they were rhetorical questions, and I expected no sincere answers from you.

306. art - January 8, 2009

dc, yes, typos are hard to avoid, very true. but that was an amazing one, considering the word “fraud” gets to the point about the fof so effectively.

307. Panorea - January 8, 2009

DC

Good morning. Just a brief post before going to work.

I wouldn’t care if you were to call me a liar, because I could name the people you do not see around. And it would probably harm those people and their loved ones. You wouldn’t care because you merely use other people to justify your choices.

The people I talk about have names and faces and their hearts are broken. I have talked with them and they have talked with me.

They are prisoners of their own “choices”. They are prisoners as you are. Some of them can see it and suffer from it. You seem to spend quite some time to justify Robert’s methods and tell others how fantastic for your “evolution” the FOF has been.

I do not know who you consider your audience.

I do not know who and what you are.

308. nigel harris price - January 8, 2009

307 Panorea

I feel that DC is one of the ‘favoured’ group in the FOF. He has probably been given the ‘go-ahead’ by either REB, GH or both to post on the blogsite to undermine the confidence of ex-members who post. Not only does he ‘tie himself in knots’ with his formatory ramblings but he often gets to the point of downright lying…..Nigel.

309. Craig Dockter - January 8, 2009

So, I was in line, the other day, at the Oregon House
grocery. 2 obvious FoFakers were going-on about
this “awful” site and the dc character.

Was mentioned this shadowy character, dc, might
be getting the boot for “wasting and poisoning the
chariot of soul”…spending time in this cesspool
of the walking dead.

Thought ya’ll might get a good laugh.

Craig

Uncle Remus
(Frank Zappa)

Whoa, are we moving too slow?
Have you seen us, Uncle Remus?
We look pretty sharp in these clothes
(Yes, we do)
Unless we get sprayed with a hose
It ain’t bad in the day
If they squirt it your way
‘Cept in the wintah, when it’s froze
And it’s hard if it hits, on your nose
(On your nose)

Just keep your nose
To the grindstone they say
Will that redeem us, Uncle Reemus?
I can’t wait til mah ‘fro is full grown
I’ll just throw away my doo-rag at home

I’ll take a drive to
Beverly Hills
Just before dawn
And knock the little jockeys
Off the rich peoples lawn
And before they get up
I’ll be gone
(I’ll be gone)
Before they get up
I’ll be knockin’ the jockeys off the lawn
(Down in the dew)

310. Craig Dockter - January 8, 2009

Gotta ax yous guys…why is it some of
the F’s women dress like hookers and
some of the men so feminine?

Craig

311. Just the Facts Ma'am - January 8, 2009

elena:
‘Theory of Conscious Influence’

No such book title by Collin. Maybe you mean either Theory of Conscious Harmony or Theory of Celestial Influence.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Daily Cardiac = Fellowship of Friends subterfuge. Don’t get sucked in again like you once were. Beware the Event Horizon.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

FoFakers should read: FauxFakers (FakeFakers)

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

310. Craig Dockter:

‘Gotta ax yous guys…why is it some of the F’s women dress like hookers and some of the men so feminine?’

1) ‘women dress like hookers’ because they ain’t gettin’ any anytime soon because (see 2))
2) ‘the men so feminine’ and busy havin’ marriage to the queen.

312. fofblogmoderator - January 8, 2009

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