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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, part 59 December 14, 2008

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For recent pages from the blog go here

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

To visit “Pathway To Presence”, the newly created web site for recruiting new members to the Fellowship; http://www.pathwaytopresence.org/home.html.no

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

 

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Comments

1. Panorea - December 14, 2008

Boy that was quick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if you go at the pathwaytopresent website now you will not find the email addresses and the phone numbers one could find a few hours ago. They have all vanished except “Oslo.”

No there is no sign of corruption and deception in the Fellowship of Friends. ***This is pure life performance***

If you were too late for the show here what “dragon” posted a few hours ago:

DC _ I thought you had said nobody really reads this blog??????????

249. dragon – December 14, 2008
PEOPLE WHO ARE VISITING THIS BLOG:

BE AWARE: THOSE PHONE NUMBERS mentioned below are THE PHONE NUMBERS
OF THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS:

THIS IS NO NEW ORGANIZATION OF THE FORTH WAY!

Please read ABOUT THE machination OF THIS group. People in all countries are working to inform about the FOF that tries to destroy the lives of its members via religious brainwashing analogous (in a wider sense) to scientology methods.

This group, the FOF is changing his appearance like a chameleon. It recruits also young men from Russia, Romania, Poland and other “ex-communist” countries who are highly educated but in an economically pretty bad situation.
Those young men will have to (if Robert E. Burton derives pleasure from their body) go into his HAREM (“voluntary”) and they will be sexual exploited.

We have a strong spiritual follower of the FOF on this BLOG, Daily Cardiac, he will deny and/or impede the facts as usual.

The new
Website:___________________________________________________________

“To sign up for an introductory meeting, call the phone number listed or write to one of the e-mail addresses.

New York 1 (877) 755-0428 newyork@pathwaytopresence.org

Washington D.C. 1 (301) 704-7163 washington@pathwaytopresence.org

Atlanta 1 (770) 346-0460 washington@pathwaytopresence.org

Los Angeles 1 (800) 642-0212 losangeles@pathwaytopresence.org

San Francisco 1 (800) 642-0212 sanfrancisco@pathwaytopresence.org

Sacramento 1 (800) 642-0212 sacramento@pathwaytopresence.org

Palo Alto 1 (800) 642-0212 paloalto@pathwaytopresence.org

For those who join our work, for new students we go more into depth on:
1. Practicing presence and supporting the higher self…”

__________________________________________________________________

PLEASE BE AWARE the FOF will also probably change its appearance (WEBSITE) and course of action in other European cuntries and all over the world!

2. No Quiet Zone - December 14, 2008

Fair enough, Renald (post on previous page)… good points. We were also taught in the FOF to over-analyze and over conceptualize (which I thought I was seeing in your post at first but maybe was over-analyzing a bit myself). And you’re right we also taught not to feel our feelings, sense our senses, see what’s right in front of us, be in touch with our common sense, and listen to our intuition. We understand each other.

3. whalerider - December 14, 2008

Pathway to Penises

This is what viruses do, they replicate.

4. Ollie - December 14, 2008

Regarding new advertising attempts like http://www.pathwaytopresence.org,
http://la-presenza.it and whatever else there is or will be: Sure, the remaining brains in the FOF are trying whatever they can to recruit new people. Anyone, anywhere. “Titanic now accepting new passengers…” Member statistics really really haven’t been looking good of late:

Aug 15 2007: 1,949
Dec 15, 2007: 1,828
Mar 15, 2008: 1,767
Jun 15, 2008: 1,745
Sep 15, 2008: 1,700
Dec 15, 2008: 1,664

(Don’t ask where the numbers come from. Won’t say.)

5. Jomo Piñata - December 14, 2008

We can call those (800) or (877) numbers. It’s free for us, but it generally costs something to the organization. We can ask for information about the meetings. We can ask whether there is a stigma about leaving the organization. We can ask whether members of the organization are aware of the allegations of sexual misconduct on the part of the leader. We could ask whether participation in sexual activities with the leader is required of members. We can ask whether membership is restricted to homosexual persons. We can ask what the average annual cost is for participants in the organization. We can ask about the Immigration and Customs Enforcement raid which took place at Apollo and whether the membership has been informed of it. We can ask if members are informed about sham marriages taking place for green card reasons in the organization. We can ask if members have been kept informed about the suicides of Fellowship members. We can ask about children in the organization. There are lots of questions we can ask.

6. Yesri Baba - December 15, 2008

The diabolical thing about this ‘pathtopretence’, which is clearly the same game is this. Dragon brought this up to the propaganda shills earlier on the blog.
This ‘presence’ thing is an experience of the witness or observer or whatever you want to call it. It is possible to come to this experience with a little training of meditation or movements, yoga etc. This is then subtly connected to archaic memes such as the ‘soul’ and ‘life after death’ ‘conscious being’ etc. It is an experience of being- being tied to an ideology. A division is made between a higher and lower self and this is how it appears in having that experience.
The truth is that ‘permanent presence’ can never be reached because it has always been here, we have always been playing all the parts. Until this is seen and understood you are a victim of an evil con and will continue to pay tens of thousands of dollars, get fucked up the ass and generally allow yourselves to be treated like horse shit.

Any true teacher, group or whatever would let you know this division is false not constantly maintain it, elaborate it and milk it with fear, coersion, and threats of banishment.

7. Daily Cardiac - December 15, 2008

NQZ – 2698:

“And the conclusion was this, is that people, whether they’re joining a cult or joining a brand, do so for exactly the same reasons. They need to belong, and they want to make meaning. We need to figure out what the world is all about, and we need the company of others. It’s simply that.”

In other words, we bring the cultist with us when we join and take the cultist with us when we leave.

The word “cult” is a thoroughly arbitrary designation applied by some men and women to avoid the reality that all men and women, as they are in the second state of consciousness, are highly susceptible to any number of influences – good, bad or indifferent, that they might stumble onto.

William Blake called it a lack of a “firm perswaysion.” It is an aspect of the invisible law of FD.

“Cults” are no more than religio-variant forms of group-think, not in the least different than catholic group-think, military group-think, corporate group-think, sports (team) group-think, or whatever category is applied to the tendency. The “Cult” degisnation is in vogue as a haven for the new age bigot.

It’s true that “cults” are popular hideouts for the occasional super scroundel, like Jim Jones, or David Koresh, as it takes no real credentials to become a “cult” leader (at least it takes a Master’s or above to get to play a corporate group-think leader) but that doesn’t qualify them to be considered cut from a different cloth. There is only one cloth, the cloth of man and his ways.

8. No Quiet Zone - December 15, 2008

Daily Cardiac,
You are barking up the wrong former cult member here. Try your circular logic with someone else. Happy holidays, though.

9. Jomo Piñata - December 15, 2008

Lacuna Piñata wrote:

The word “cult” is a thoroughly arbitrary designation applied by some men and women to avoid the reality that all men and women, as they are in the second state of consciousness, are highly susceptible to any number of influences – good, bad or indifferent, that they might stumble onto.

The following is a good link to a series of articles about cults:

http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult6.htm

Its point of view is at odds with my brother Lacuna Piñata. He won’t read it, but you might.

10. fofblogmoderator - December 15, 2008

#4 is newly moderated

11. No Quiet Zone - December 15, 2008

Ollie, if you don’t cite your sources or provide more details, your statistics mean nothing. Also, your analysis is rather odd: “Titanic now accepting new passengers…” Really? Actually those membership numbers look pretty damn good all things (inner) considered.

If you believe your stats, it appears the FOF is weathering the storm pretty well. My guess is that the numbers are quite a bit lower than that, or that the number of actual paying members has been reduced dramatically, or both. Cite your sources, or don’t expect anyone to take your stats seriously.

12. Daily Cardiac - December 15, 2008

Panorea – 1:

“if you go at the pathwaytopresent website now you will not find the email addresses and the phone numbers one could find a few hours ago. They have all vanished except “Oslo.”

No there is no sign of corruption and deception in the Fellowship of Friends. ***This is pure life performance***

If you were too late for the show here what “dragon” posted a few hours ago:

DC _ I thought you had said nobody really reads this blog??????????”

I’m not so sure what you find disturbing about PTP removing numbers from their own website with the blog environment in mind.

Every organization has a right to protect their own interests.

Ex members probably think of themselves a doing a public service, but to me, and possibly other members, some of you are seen as potentially dangerous.

More than one ex member has made veiled and not so veiled threats in the past. What JP has suggested you do is a form of harassment and could actually be against the law.

Just recently an ex member of the Church of Scientology showed up at one of their locations brandishing a sword and was killed by security guards. He probably also thought of himself as doing a public service.

Panorea – “DC _ I thought you had said nobody really reads this blog??????????”

I can see you’re not a stickler for details. What I said was that I talk to a fair amount of students over time and I have not brought up the blog or had it brought up to me in the last 18 months. I did also say I’m sure some read it.

If someone in the FoF is monitoring the blog it would not surprise me. Knowing the makeup of several ex members, as I have come to know them in this arena, I think it’s prudent to keep an eye on them.

13. Daily Cardiac - December 15, 2008

Ollie – 4:

You gave the statistics for December 15th 2008 on December 14th.
Are you by any chance accepting new students/passengers? I might be interested.

14. Jomo Piñata - December 15, 2008

There’s nothing harassive about calling 800 numbers and asking questions. If I suggested people call repeatedly at all hours of the day and night, that might be harassment, but I did not and do not suggest that. Let good manners be your guide. Chances are the people who answer the phone might never have thought about these questions or heard about the things I mentioned.

15. dick moron - December 15, 2008

12. DC

If someone in the FoF is monitoring the blog it would not surprise me. Knowing the makeup of several ex members, as I have come to know them in this arena, I think it’s prudent to keep an eye on them.
________________

You can’t keep an eye on someone you can’t see. All you have here are words on a screen.

16. Bares Reposting - December 15, 2008

D.C.:

‘I think it’s prudent to keep an eye on them.’

There goes that ‘them & us’ attitude, again.

Daily Card Trick,
I suggest you keep an eye (third eye) on your conscience.

~~~~~~

Bares Reposting:

Jiminy Cricket Says:
March 29th, 2007 at 11:12 am

‘Let your Conscience be your guide.’

Jiminy may be small, but he’s far from your average cricket. He can turn an umbrella into a parachute and looks great in a top hat and spats, and he carries a mean tune, as well as a nearly inexhaustible supply of home-brewed common sense. It’s no wonder he is chosen by the Blue Fairy to be Pinocchio’s ‘official’ conscience. Unfortunately for Jiminy, it’s only after he, blushingly, agrees to his appointment as ‘Lord High Keeper of the Knowledge of Right and Wrong, Counselor in Moments of Temptation, and Guide along the Straight and Narrow Path,’ that he realizes what a job he’s gotten himself into. Like any conscience, Jiminy is occasionally late on the job, and frequently ignored even when he is around. Fortunately, Jiminy is nothing if not persistent, and he eventually succeeds in steering Pinocchio back to the right path.

Consider then: ‘short Be becomes long BE,’ is to ‘flaccid becomes erect,’ is to ‘truth becomes lie,’ as Pinocchio nose (or, is that, Pinocchio knows?) grows (or not), or is any of that the other way around? What hath god wrought (or, is that, rot? or rod?)? I’m conf-you-sed? Go figure. Will the real boy please reveal his self?

‘Let your Conscience be your guide.’

Jiminy Cricket

~~~~~~

Coward Harder Says:
April 21st, 2007 at 8:45 am e

Howard Carter really Coward Harder, real FOF member, also known as Pinoccio, wooden puppet wishing to become real boy. Upon partial realization, relative awakening, to real boy, he meet with Robert Burden and is ‘exposed’ for what he really is: wooden object to be fondled and used for burden’s pleasure; nothing else. This is no fairy tale, possibly fairy tail, but more likely one awful nightmare that lasts lifetimes for many like him. He is advised by Jiminy Cricket, his CONSCIENCE,
‘Let your conscience be your guide,’
but is this heard? Is this verified? I don’t think so (Si-Do or So-Di or Do-Si-Do or So-Di-So; most likely: Do-Si-Do-Si-Do-Si. That makes a sequence simultaneously with representing beginning of descending octave (x 3):
Do-Si-La-Sol-Fa-Mi-Re-Do
2, 4, 6, 8, who do we appreciate? What a dance!)

So maybe help is needed from Harder Gavin, the supposed man 5 pronounced by burden’s proof. But Harder Gavin is no more real boy than man in moon is made of green cheese, if such a thing exists at all, ask his wives and children. Harder Gavin will argue point, along with Coward Harder, to act as foil extraordinaire on this blog to bend the truth to FOF benefit, no matter what, due to desperation ad infinitum. Woe unto FOF as deception continues. Law of Karma exists whether you like it or not or belief in it or not. Get ready for Karmic pay back like FOF never seen before. Or, would you like to swing on a star; carry moon beams home in a jar; or be better off than you are; or would you rather be a. . . mule? (or substitute your own imagination.)

Descending ever so slowly,
Coward Harder

~~~~~~

D.C., Foil me not.

17. Daily Cardiac - December 15, 2008

JP 14:

If 20 people take your advise it does translate to harassment to the individuals who have to take the calls. You also reminded people that it would cost the FoF extra money if people did that. Your intent was clear.

As far as those who answer being taken off guard/never thought of the questions/heard about those things it’s unlikely. What goes on in the minds of some ex members, thanks to the blog, is no longer a mystery.

18. nigel harris price - December 15, 2008

Hey Daily cardiac

With regard to this whole new facade of the FOF – what about the Biblical passage “The Truth is Everlasting and Unchanging”?…..Nigel

19. Panorea - December 15, 2008

Hi Daily Fish

Could you elaborate on this?
…Every organization has a right to protect their own interests…

I thought we used to be in a “school of awakening”, “a church”, “and a holy environment.” Where did you see that the Fellowship, PathWayTo Presence is an Organization with Interests other than the well being and awakening of its members?

20. Daily Cardiac - December 15, 2008

Panorea – 19:

The interests of the FoF organization is precisely what you offer – the well being and awakening of its members. Several individuals on this site are making whatever efforts that are at their disposal to bring about the demise of the FoF. Would you expect the FoF to not offer resistance to that?

Are you a Solar type?

21. Yesri Baba - December 15, 2008

“Ex members probably think of themselves a doing a public service, but to me, and possibly other members, some of you are seen as potentially dangerous.

More than one ex member has made veiled and not so veiled threats in the past. What JP has suggested you do is a form of harassment and could actually be against the law.”

——————

Oh yeah, what about Mr. Weiner calling everybody out? Seems like it goes both ways you prick.
You are known to be actually dangerous.

22. whalerider - December 15, 2008

Gandhi went to jail standing up for his conscience. He worked to unite Muslim, Hindu, and Christian alike. He did not preach an “us and them” mentality. He took action against oppression with non-violent acts of civil disobedience. The British considered him dangerous, too, because he carried the Sword of Truth.

I can tell, DC, that you are here not to learn from your peers, but to spread fear and act as a vector for the Burton virus.

It will only take the shock of closing down your cult to wake you up.

So be it.

The penalty for harassment is minimal in comparison with the penalty of losing your moral integrity.

Dangerous? What are you afraid of? Paradise awaits you.

Isn’t ironic that here I have been going on and on about the Sword of Allah and the Sword of Truth and then some guy recently shows up to the front gate of the Church of Scientology with an actual Samurai sword and gets blown away by the security guards before the police show up? Public service you say? Sounds like suicide by cop to me.

I could just imagine the spin Burton gave that…just to keep his followers in fear for their lives and locking their doors at night.

In life, it’s the smiling guys in suits who we really ought to keep our eyes on for goodness sake…”looking out for the interests” of their corporations, of which the FOF, Inc. happens to be.

What do you think Christ meant when he said he came with a sword? He was pissed at the moral depravity he saw!

23. nigel harris price - December 15, 2008

20 Daily Cardiac

I personally resent your post about Solar types. We are not destructive by nature and many of us have been ‘fleeced’ by the FOF, physically, monetarily and emotionally. I do not know what type you are, and actually do not care, but I think you should ‘engage brain before posting’…..Nigel.

24. peter - December 15, 2008

‘pathway to presence’ sounds so fantasied
it like you have to go somewhere else
to be where you are

there are 10.000 tribes like
the “fellowship” of “friends”
full of “DC’s”

all slaves

all protecting organizations
before they finally leave …

lose their fof status
back too being life

away from the criminals, that have choked
the breath of conscience and good cheer.

back to being an absolute beginner
(but absolutely sane)

and there in the beginning
will be the end

25. lauralupa - December 15, 2008

DC
What I said was that I talk to a fair amount of students over time and I have not brought up the blog or had it brought up to me in the last 18 months.

Now, this is interesting.
Daily Chastiser, you write on this blog almost as often as your name implies, but according to you, you have not brought up the subject with any of your so-called friends for the past 18 months.
If this is true, you are living a double life.
Why this lack of communication?
Do you not trust your friends’ judgment?
Are you afraid of being chastised?

26. Panorea - December 15, 2008

DC – Are you a Solar type?

Are you the Patronising or the Passive Agressive Type?

27. dick moron - December 15, 2008

20. Daily Cardiac

Someone is getting a little cranky. I’s OK DC, pour yourself another drink and keep reading. I suspect we are the only “friends” your really have.

28. Crouching Tiger - December 15, 2008

DC.

“It’s true that “cults” are popular hideouts for the occasional super scroundel, like Jim Jones, or David Koresh, as it takes no real credentials to become a “cult” leader (at least it takes a Master’s or above to get to play a corporate group-think leader) but that doesn’t qualify them to be considered cut from a different cloth. There is only one cloth, the cloth of man and his ways.”

Well I’m glad you said it yourself!…. RB has no real credentials, he never completed his ‘course’, even with a teacher who was himself of dubious background. So…. he seems eminently well-qualified to be a cult leader.

‘The cloth of man and his ways’ as a standard of judgment is exactly what you’ve been denying hitherto, you’ve been at some pains to separate RB’s perceived ‘level of being’ from his actual behaviour. If the Blog’s here for anything, it’s to document the full extent of those ways, public and private, and invite readers to judge for themselves whether they want to join an organisation with this kind of ‘enlightened being’ at the helm. There is certainly no harm in knowing the full facts before you decide what to do.

You could advertise for example, that the teacher may use sexual means as part of his teaching on young males. The full extent of the financial obligation could be stated – probably around 20-30% of your total income. The absence of any genuine connection to the 4th Way teaching.

Then people would know much more clearly what buying into ‘Burtonism’ really means.

You said not so long ago, in one of your posts, that just because ‘it walks and talks like a duck’, there’s no guarantee that the animal is in fact a duck, in the spiritual arena. In fact, this kind of common sense approach applies with even greater relevance to that arena than to others, particularly in an age when many conceal their true motives so that their ‘ways’ are not easy to fathom until it is too late, and, when investigated thoroughly, lack any semblance of the background and heritage they lay claim to.

29. Panorea - December 15, 2008

I remember many friends who considered themselves “strong and solid” thinking that having ideals and wishing to be surrounded by love and interest and real friendship was “naive” and “unattainable.” They would talk about the “harsh” truths and the “school” is like life in that respect. They “knew” what they were doing and they would never do what the “boys” were doing with Robert.

The irony is that the longer you stay in a corrupted environment and the longer you try to make the crooked and perverse methods of “awakening” yours, the more you actually become a lonely, bitter, and dark being.

30. Daily Cardiac - December 15, 2008

Bares Reposting – 16:

“There goes that ‘them & us’ attitude, again.”

You’re not serious are you?

I think it was your camp who established the ground rules:
Me = Brainwashed enabler. You = Graduate.

Is that not Them vs. Us?

I guess Jiminy plays hooky from your shoulder too.

31. Ellen - December 15, 2008

#6, Yesri,
Thanks for that! More to the point than many are ready to acknowledge.

32. dragon - December 15, 2008

DC,

“Knowing the makeup of several ex members, as I have come to know them in this arena, I think it’s prudent to keep an eye on them.”

YOU are knowing NOTHING!

YOU are a POOR BOY!

INSTRUMENT of a LOST TEACHER!

You/the FOF may keep an eye on somebody but you will SEE NOTHING apart from the FOF!

INTIMIDATIONATTEMPT of a person suffering from MEGALOMANIA!

33. Mick Danger - December 15, 2008

“The world has witnessed a legion of false claimants – ordinary people with perphaps occult, charismatic, or hypnotic ablilities.

A false claim to be the Messiah is often grounded in personal gain. One motive is adoration. The ego can find no greater glory than grandiosity.

Money, power, and sex: Together and individually, these issues compose the most common stumbling blocks for the false sage, guru, yogi, master, prophet, messiah, or hierophant.”
-Kenneth Lux 2001

“In the world there are countless sadhus, mahatmas, mahapurushas, saints, yogis and walis, though the number of genuine ones is very, very limited.” -A.M.B.

34. Mick Danger - December 15, 2008

#44 in a series of not-so-veiled threats against Grampa Bobby.

35. whalerider - December 15, 2008

So sorry for the repetition. Viruses are insidious!

As a service to humanity, the more we use full text instead of acronyms like FOF or PTP the more it will help ensure that internet search engines make the links necessary to help inform and immunize the public from Burton’s latest attempt to clone his rape factory and establish a new victim stream to exploit.

Pathway to Presence+Fellowship of Friends blog+Robert Burton+cult
Pathway to Presence+Fellowship of Friends blog+Robert Burton+cult
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36. elena - December 15, 2008

DC: ¨
Ex members probably think of themselves a doing a public service, but to me, and possibly other members, some of you are seen as potentially dangerous.

More than one ex member has made veiled and not so veiled threats in the past. What JP has suggested you do is a form of harassment and could actually be against the law.”

I’m so glad you are beginning to take us seriously, I hope we start taking our selves as seriously as we need to to get rid of these institutions for the well being of the general public called humanity at large.

Sickos, you better measure yourselves a little tighter because you are not going to get away with your virus.

37. dragon - December 15, 2008

Hello BLOG VISITORS ALL AROUND THE WORLD:

from:

http://www.beingpresent.org/index.php?toc=Robert-Earl-Burton-page-2

THE ART OF DIVINE PRESENCE

ROBERT E. BURTON (our spiritual teacher, = the leader of the Fellowship of Friends, a NEORELIGION!)

….He has tirelessly sought new inspiration, introducing fresher approaches to each member’s internal efforts, and always providing loving guidance and support.

Robert has come to understand the esoteric nature of ALL spiritual teachings throughout recorded time. He has concluded that all religious traditions are the same….

——————————————————–

The understanding of ALL spiritual teachings!

Robert E. Burton = THE MASTER OF PRESENCE

Pretty good churning out hollow phrases!

Dear READER be carfully, YOU are nothing but the “raw meat” for the FOF!

The FOF will introduce you to a completely parallel world with craving for donations, minimum 10% of your monthly income etc.

First you will be showered with attention and pseudolove and imperceptible the FOF-ORG will manipulate all your relationships with family members, with workmates, friends…

You will accept the FOF language code, the FOF dress code, the FOF thinking code up to your absolutely addiction.

You will talk to yourself: It is the best for my spiritual developement!

PLEASE BE AWARE: SPIRITUALITY is available for all human beings without any restriction.

It can be a present, it is YOUR CHOICE, it is YOUR FREEDOM!
BE PRESENT!

38. Daily Cardiac - December 15, 2008

Lauralupa – 25:

“Daily Chastiser, you write on this blog almost as often as your name implies, but according to you, you have not brought up the subject with any of your so-called friends for the past 18 months.
If this is true, you are living a double life.
Why this lack of communication?
Do you not trust your friends’ judgment?
Are you afraid of being chastised?”

I think I’ve mentioned I’m here to tell the other side of the story, so that any open minded readers will have both sides to compare.

Most of my friends know the side I’m telling, so why would I have to converse with them about the blog. If they want to get your side they will read it themselves.

39. Vena - December 15, 2008

The photo of Robert Burton on the beingpresent website gave me the chills. He looks corrupt and hardened. Sad, because if he had truly applied the things he tried to teach it might have been otherwise.

40. whalerider - December 15, 2008

fofblogmonitor:

BTW these are the internet search engine key words the Fellowship of Friends are using for the two recruiting websites in question:

Fourth Way, the present moment, fourth way, self remembering, being present, religion, Ouspensky, Gurdjieff, self-remembering, divine presence, esoteric teaching, awakening, esoteric, third eye, here and now, awakening, higher self, the present, lower self, Presence, Sufi, Zen, and Buddha.

These words are not trademarks and reside in the public domain. Anyone is free to use them.

Could you or Pavel add in the page header just underneath this string:

Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, part 59 « Fellowship of Friends Discussion

…the following string of HTML code:

That way this blog will be forever linked to their sites.

41. dragon - December 15, 2008

40. whalerider

Great idea!

And for All of US who are experiencing the chills (Robert’s photo)

Dancing squirrels!

(I think Robert E. Burton looks like a boiled egg!)

42. James Mclemore - December 15, 2008

Since we don’t have the Jack Handey treats that another blogger used to put at the bottom of some of her posts, I found one that I thought Burton might be able to use someday.

A Deep Thought from Jack Handey……..

Broken promises don’t upset me.
I just think, “Why did they believe me?”

43. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

dear blog moderator, i’ve been trying to read from previous pages on the blog (page 58, page 57, and other earlier pages), but can’t find an easy way to do this. i’m not finding a link to those pages.

probably extra work for you, but i suggest a link at the top that simply says “previous pages” or “back” or something similar. it would be good for readers to be able to browse among the various 59 pages. maybe a page with links to each and every blog page? like a table of contents? some good stuff back there.

happy holidays.

44. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

here’s what i was looking for…

https://fofdiscussion.wordpress.com

i suggest adding this link to the top of this page (calling it “FOF Discussion Main Page” or something similar). will help navigational challenged users like me.

—-

“And though she be but little, she is fierce!” —Shakespeare

45. fofblogmoderator - December 16, 2008

#44-

If you click on “Home” at the top of this page it will take you to the same spot as the link you posted.

46. elena - December 16, 2008

¨258. Jomo Piñata – December 14, 2008
Corporations are supposed to identify themselves whenever they act. That’s part of the deal–they say who they are, they get limited liability. If they don’t say who they are, they don’t get limited liability. Which means if someone gets hurt, the bank accounts and other assets owned by the individuals who did the hurting may have to answer.

Because the Fellowship is thought-reform environment, and may be engaging in deceptive recruitment, people who have been deceptively recruited and damaged in some way may be able to bring lawsuits. If you feel you were deceptively recruited into the Fellowship and sustained injury, including psychological injury, and have recently left, you may be able to sue. Consult a California lawyer and find out what your rights are.¨

Jomo Piñata,

Thank you for your many posts and your humor. If I may ask, weren’t we all deceived no matter how many years ago we joined?

The Fellowship stated that it was a fourth Way School and Fourth Way Schools happen in life. Instead, the Fellowship gradually brainwashed us and took us out of life and separated us from our families, friends and humanity which is exactly what the Fourth Way is not about.

Would that not be enough of a deception? Then it never told us that it was just about making money and that is all it did at all times for every event. Wouldn’t judges find that a bit over the top when any one of us can state that we had to pay for absolutely every event?

Could I ask, if one of us is not powerful enough to prove damages individually why is it that a group of us would not be able to get together and sue for those reasons?

I understand that damages have to be shown, how can all the monetary damages and the psychological damages that we’ve talked about here not be damages even if we weren’t hurt physically more obviously than just come close to chronic fatigue for many of us?

Thank you in advance for any of your answers.

47. More history needed? - December 16, 2008

Dear DC

I calculated 1664 fellowship students Dec 15 2008.

Apollo and surroundings 605 students

The source?

You think I was born yesterday?

48. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

More history…

I calculated 1,105 fellowship students Dec 15 2008.

Apollo and surroundings 450 students

Numbers are easily used for propaganda; for example, suggesting that u.s. auto workers are getting paid way too much compared to toyota, and so on, but failing to mention certain other details that would lead us to believe otherwise.

Point is, anyone can throw these numbers out there. And i’m sure the FOF is doing everything it can to provide HIGH numbers. It’s a PR game. Speaking of cars, imagine if Lexus told us, Sales Are Way Down on Luxury SUVs… it would tend to make people less interested. They want people to believe their cars are in demand.

Marketing. Sales. Advertising. Public Relations. Robert Burton. The Fellowship of Friends. Purchases. Customers. Money. Profit. Awakening. Greed.

Marketing. Sales. Advertising. Public Relations. Robert Burton. The Fellowship of Friends. Purchases. Customers. Money. Profit. Awakening. Greed.

Marketing. Sales. Advertising. Public Relations. Robert Burton. The Fellowship of Friends. Purchases. Customers. Money. Profit. Awakening. Greed.

49. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

Panorea. 19: “I thought we used to be in a “school of awakening”, “a church”, “and a holy environment.”

And when this person responds by asking, “Are you a solar type?” …

… apparently she means: “Do you really believe that the FOF is a “school of awakening”? HAAHAAHAAHAAAAAaaaaah. You deserve what you get if you are that naive!…. HAAAHAAAHAAAhaaa. haa.. ha..ha…..”

Someone mentioned the creepy nature of Burton’s photo. I get the same creepiness from this person’s posts. Completely bizarre stuff. I know it sounds like I’m joking, but I’m describing exactly the “vibe” that this person gives out.

50. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

http://www.esotericfreedom.com/Lineage.html

The following is a passage from the above web page:

“I first met Robert Burton at Red Mountain Ranch in Sonoma County, 48 miles north of the Golden Gate Bridge in California in 1969.

“He was a ‘tennis bum’ at the time and when he saw how much money Alexander Francis Horn was racking in from gullible people who knew their lives were crap, he became a ‘work bum’.

“And he was very successful until some of his male students started questioning getting anal sex as spiritual enlightenment. There were many stories in major newspapers about him molesting the young boys of his students.

“Alex Horn used to have him beaten up regularly as Alex was very homophobic. Of course most of what Alex called his students got beaten up regularly.”

51. ton - December 16, 2008

re: the Fellowship of friends as a thought-reform environment in connection with mind-control, brainwashing and cult-immersion — from wiki, paraphrased with additions:

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The ‘ideas’ or ‘cognitions’ in question may include attitudes and beliefs, and also (especially) the awareness of one’s behavior. (for examples of this in printed form see previouss link to ‘via del sol’ journal).

The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors…. (changining attitudes, beliefs and behaviors is a prerequisite and effect of cult membership…. read: brainwashing).

Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.

Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another… Noticing the contradiction would lead to dissonance, which could be experienced as anxiety, guilt, shame, anger, embarrassment, stress, and other negative emotional states.

When people’s ideas are consistent with each other, they are in a state of harmony or consonance. (this describes the condition of cult immersion, i.e. thought-reform environment).

If cognitions are unrelated, they are categorized as irrelevant to each other and do not lead to dissonance. (this reminds me of the role of the shill in continually changing the subject here on the blog).

A powerful cause of dissonance is when an idea conflicts with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as “I am a good person” or “I made the right decision.” This can lead to rationalization when a person is presented with evidence of a bad choice. It can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.

DC, do you get the point? i doubt it, but maybe someone else will.

52. peter - December 16, 2008

yes ‘no quiet zone’ number 49 this is also
exactly one of the reasons i left the political
fellowship of friends with all their disvaluation
for simple values like honesty, openness and
freedom

when i look back i can not believe that i once
was a member of such a dishonest club

i almost feel ashamed for being so dumb

analyzing how i managed to stay in for 10 years i
see that i gave the fellowship of friends credit for
the higher states of consciousness i was experiencing
higher state i had also long before i ever joint the tribe
and the bottom line, states of consciousness that
only came more and more, and deeper and deeper after
i left the fellowship of friends 11 years ago

without their ‘help’ evolution is possible
better, quicker and deeper

all they offer is slow decay

i pity some who are locked in as a member
i cannot help them
they have to help themselves

dying before leaving the fellowship of friends
is the worst thing possible

and for some others it is just the place
where they belong –
the fellowship of fools

if you are a member for 25 years how
do you now how it is like without being
a member

give yourself a shock and
just leave for two years

and while ‘the teacher is sucking dc’
and girard is rationalizing that
and all the sheep are giving their money
and the ‘inner circle’ is selling them
the junk food of ‘feeling special’

you sit somewhere alone
slowly and thoughtfully
reading ‘I am That’ from
shri nisargadatta maharaj

take the open road
do not wait for others understanding

just go

just do not be afraid
to be alone or
without your fof older student status
or without feeling special

just go

look back after a few years
and see the fof for what it is
just another small cult
just like 10.000 other cults

the moon people
the kabbalist
the scientologists
the fellowship ‘students’
and the ufo people
maybe you are to good
or to intelligent for this

declare yourself free
and go

*
**
*

53. Daily Cardiac - December 16, 2008

THE BLOG

With all the dialog about the blog being a deterrent for people in finding and joining the FoF, I thought I would point out one or two issues as I understand the situation.

First of all, from the figures Ollie posted toward the top of this page there seems to be a stabilization to the “exodus” that began with the implementation of the sequence into the school’s teachings about 2 years ago.

My belief is that the sequence is such a powerful and refined method of engaging and prolonging presence that it was bound to cause a major “shaking of the tree” with those who were in the school for reasons other than being present.

Regarding the blog as a deterrent to people joining the FoF I think that is both true and not true. I think it’s more accurate to view the blog as a “filter” rather than a deterrent.

And a filter that in some ways actually helps the FoF by preventing a group of individuals from joining who would have otherwise joined in the past and left, some after a brief time, others after a longer time.

It will save those individuals much time, money and disappointment when they would have discovered the FoF does not provide what they thought it did or what they thought they wanted. Mainly in this category would be individuals who are still adhering to ordinary morality.

It will also save the FoF time and resources in instructing these individuals and seeing them leave anyway. So it’s a win win situation for all.

But a bigger benefit of the blog regarding the FoF occurs with fence sitters, people who have had the first force formed in them to leave for a period of time, but the second force of inertia, or staying for friends, spouse, job, etc. canceled out that first force.

As we know first force often is canceled out by second force to form a static partial triad. But when the proper third force enters the Do of a new octave can begin.

I don’t see the blog as a deterrent to many potential members, however and, in fact, I see it as an aid.

Most seekers who have a mature magnetic center have already begun the process of discarding many of life’s values. Ordinary life has proved to be a dead end. They are truly seeking a way off the wheel of life and the accompanying psychology of life.

More than anything they are tired of negativity; tired of being judged, tired of going with the status quo.

So if those individuals came upon the blog they would find the exact psychology they have rejected being expressed by ex members; judgmental, negative and rigid. And if the people expressing that psychology are against the FoF, the seekers may very well be more inclined to think maybe something valid was there.

Gurjieff was reported to have said “Observe how life acts and do the opposite.” So, all in all, I don’t see the blog as a negative thing, speaking as a current member of the FoF.

If an individual is looking for a real school they will recognize it when the come upon it, in spite of, or perhaps because of, the out cryings of others that it is a “cult.” And they will recognize it because the school’s official sites and information will contain the kernel of what makes it a school.

On the other hand if someone is not looking for a real school it’s better for all concerned if the blog serves as a deterrent to them.

54. peter - December 16, 2008

52 Daily Cardiac – December 16, 2008

P R O P A G A N D A

55. dick moron - December 16, 2008

53. Daily Cardiac

My belief is that the sequence is such a powerful and refined method of engaging and prolonging presence that …Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah–retch…. @#!!!!!!….awkkk!
—————-
Well said, Herr Goebbels

56. lauralupa - December 16, 2008

The pyjama people are boring me to pieces
Feel like I am wasting my time
They all got flannel up ‘n down ’em
A little trap-door back aroun’ ’em
An’ some cozy little footies on their mind

Po-jama people!
Po-jama people, people!
They sure do make you sleepy
With the things they might say

is any of you, like me, concerned that the Daily discussion with the thick as a brick Cardiac is getting boring beyond belief?
here’s an essay about “the gifts of boredom” to hopefully help you make it through yet another turn on the merry-go-round

http://www.realitysandwich.com/gifts_boredom

57. Wouldnt You Like To Know - December 16, 2008

Concerning how many are valid members of the Fellowship of Friends:

Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.”
– Autobiography of Mark Twain

“Lies, damned lies, and statistics” is part of a phrase attributed to Benjamin Disraeli* and popularised in the United States by Mark Twain: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” The statement refers to the persuasive power of numbers, the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments, and the tendency of people to disparage statistics that do not support their positions.
– from Wikipedia

* Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield, KG, PC, FRS (born Benjamin D’Israeli; 21 December 1804 – 19 April 1881), was a British Conservative statesman and literary figure. He served in government for three decades, twice as Prime Minister.
– from Wikipedia

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

‘judgmental, negative and rigid.’

This is exactly the attitude, atmosphere and mentation of those that are fundamentalist religious cult followers and found rampant among the members of the Fellowship of Friends. But, they cannot see that because they are so enamoured with themselves and their way of seeing things in their parochial narcissistic cult behaviour. And, the guru is the worst of them all; being so insulated from reality for so many years in the monastic way of life he fabricated to make it possible for unbridled satiation of his every proclivity.

58. harryhindsight - December 16, 2008

53, Daily Cardigan,

Another wretched attempt at spin.

People are leaving the FOF in droves and the best you can do is pretend it’s some perfect cosmic plan to filter the pure from the impure.

Has anyone keyed the Ostrich lately?

59. Crouching Tiger - December 16, 2008

DC.

“My belief is that the sequence is such a powerful and refined method of engaging and prolonging presence that it was bound to cause a major “shaking of the tree” with those who were in the school for reasons other than being present.”

I very much doubt RB and his ‘inner circle’ expected the results of the sequence and the new teaching, in terms of the number of departures. There was a very strong, concerted effort from OH to keep as many as possible IN… There was panic and consternation about an unexpected development.

Most people – almost anyone who had any doubts the teaching – were offered suspended TP’s for six months, regardless of their perceived value to the group.

As-f and other senior people were sent over from OH on a regular basis (every few weeks) to quell the discontent, and it was about this time that the advertising became much more aggressive – new website, less 4th Way emphasis, more ‘universal religion’… We were even leafletting churches in London!

So the true story sitting behind your glossy one is that the fellowship has only ever expelled people for monetary reasons, for not paying on time. That is the real ‘filter’. The advertising is designed to hit a much wider target audience than before, so that the trawling-net will let through MORE, not less fish. No other supposedly esoteric organisation I can think of markets themselves as obviously and aggressively as the FoF, or has a greater profile in Life, or a greater will to succeed in Life…

“If an individual is looking for a real school they will recognize it when the come upon it, in spite of, or perhaps because of, the out cryings of others that it is a “cult.” And they will recognize it because the school’s official sites and information will contain the kernel of what makes it a school.”

All the outward aspects of the fellowship militate against this statement. Real schools don’t advertise themselves to anyone, they rely on being found by those who really want to find them and really need them. They certainly don’t shout about how much they ‘know’ about esoteric truths and the laws of evolution on their front page.

At least the website does indeed contain the kernel of what makes the fellowship the fellowship. The outside is stronger than the inside, and people who enter its inner circle are the ones who talk the best game, the ones who know the right words, the ones with the smoothest exterior.

60. dragon - December 16, 2008

Daily Cardiac, feeling exhausted???

The BLOG is an aid?

Yes ,THE BLOG MAY be an aid for your probably cognitive dissonance!

BUT first of all, relax, BLOW YOUR MIND!

GO TO A PSYCHIATRIST and a PSYCHOLOGIST (outside the FOF) and talk to them!

YOUR BROTHER is also on YOUR SIDE!

And after many months, let’s laugh together:

YOU WILL FIND a NEW GOD!

YOUR THIRST WILL BE QUENCHED!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-t-3qncy5Qfk/powerthirst_2_re_domination/

PS

DC be sure the BLOG is NO AID for the FOF :

You may know the term CRIMINON or the organization “I help” or the organization “The way to happiness”, the same chameleon methods but not so SILKY!
Or should you enter the NARCONON ORG? Don’t forget you are using only 10% of you mental potential!

And the best chameleon ORG is KVPM, you will find it also well established in Germany:

K.V.P.M. e.V.
40227 Düsseldorf

or in Hamburg, the KPVM has tried to receive data from pupils with learning difficulties in schools in Hamburg and guess, the KPVM has the solution!?

The Innenminister and Senatoren der Länder in Germany have given the following statement on a conference in Potsdam, recently (Info 2008, November 21):

This Organization (it is Scientolology) is a danger for our democracy, this organization will perform a totalitarian government, it is a danger for the human beings in our society. It tries to estrange them from each other. The Members of this ORG should be well functioning instruments of an organization that misuses the term religion. It is no religion and we recommend the observation of this ORG by the GERMAN Verfassungsschutz(Office for the Protection of the Constitution).

The KVPM (called CCHR = Citizens Commission on Human Rights in the USA) is an association controlled centrally by Scientology (and is not and never was a separate entity as is claimed….

THE FOF is a SMALL GROUP but the methods are related to ORG and first of all the FOF knows:

THE raw meat on the streets (LIFE PEOPLE) are MONEY are POWER and we will try to get them under ALL CONDITIONS!

Daily Cardiac you may throw dust in your own eyes but NOT in the EYES OF BLOG VISITORS!

61. dragon - December 16, 2008

Lauralupa,

DC is so BORING, if I go to bed (and if I want to sleep immediataly, sometimes) I read one or two gems of DC and fall in a deep, deep sleep.

Unfortunately there is always that little Grim Reaper Robert E. Burton in the following dream making grimaces of disgust because I am laughing with him and he suffers and suffers and whimpers because LAUGHING is forbidden in the FOF….

62. dragon - December 16, 2008

PATHWAY TO PRESENCE THE NEW WEBSITE of the FOF:

GEMS FOR ALL:

AGAIN AND AGAIN THE SAME MENTAL SUGAR CANDY STYLE PATCHED UP LIKE TORN TROWSERS TO CATCH MEMBERS AS WELL AS THE FOF CAN:

“What is truth?” Pilate asked Christ. But Christ was not willing to give away his knowledge to a person unprepared for his teaching. So he remained silent. Read about esoteric knowledge in Esotericism.

“Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?” asked the dark queen in the tale of Snow White. “You are the fairest of them all,” answered the mirror, until Snow White had developed her full beauty. The Two Selves describe our higher and lower selves.

As morning dawned, Scheherazade ceased telling her tale. Another night had passed in which the sultan abstained from his killings, another day in which the country could live in peace because of Scheherazade’s perseverance. Read about the nature of Efforts.

The demon Mara sent his three beautiful daughters to distract Buddha from his meditation. Buddha did not respond to temptations, because he had sworn not to arise before he exerienced true wisdom. Imagination explains our main obstacle and how to deal with it.

“I am a sentinel and I am in love,” said the guard, not willing to rest from his watch. He would not desert his post until the beloved had arrived. The role of the steward and emotions and their connection to the higher self is described in the Steward.

The Sword
The sword is an esoteric symbol used by schools to symbolize the state of awareness being maintained. An upraised sword signifies the readiness of the figure to take action in case it is needed.
St. Catherine, depicted in the image above, was about to be totured to death, broken on a wheel, by her enemies. Nevertheless, through her spiritual power, she instead broke the wheel and overcame her foes. The image above shows her with gripping on the wheel, the symbol of imagination, and not allowing it to move. The sword underlines her state of awareness. Female figures in school representations often denote emotions concerned with experiencing the higher self.

Oslo Center (FOF CENTER)
The role of an esoteric school is to provide its members with opportunities to work on themselves. For people interested in our esoteric work we try to establish a center in Oslo.
In our centers we usually meet at least weekly to absorb the teaching and to exchange our experiences with our efforts to be present. Apart from meetings, students receive daily reminders and aids to help them be more present. We offer also other opportunities for students to gather and work together.
Two introductory meetings:
For people interested in knowing more about our practices we offer two introductory meetings. These meetings are free of charge.
These two meetings emphasize how to practice presence together.
The content of the first meeting includes:
• What is presence and why can’t we hold it?
• What are the obstacles to live in the present moment?
• How can we support our desire to be present?
• Why is presence important?
• Conditions to experience the higher self.
The second meeting concentrates on methods to prolong presence. To smake a reservation please write to oslo@pathwaytopresence.org or call 45 85 41 45.
For information for new students joining our school click here.
The images on this website which are not attributed are, to the best of our knowledge, in the public domain.
Graphics are by D. Scapati
Images:
Home:
Gayland
Moments:
2nd to bottom: T. H. Myers
Bottom: S. Gordon
Esotericism:
Top: Christian Rosenbaum (1)
Middle: Atlant (2)
Bottom right: Dhirad (1)
Bottom left: R. Litschkewitsch
The Higher and the Lower Self:
Top: J. Kowalick
Effort:
Middle: Yaska (1)
The Steward:
3rd from top: Ann Douglas
Your Turn:
C. Evarts
An exercise:
H. Chevalier
Discussion:
J.M. Schomburg (1)+(2)
Oslo:
Wilhelm Joys Anderson (2)

(1) licensed under GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2
(2) licensed under Creative Commmons Attribution ShareAlike Versions 2.0 and later

63. Jomo Piñata - December 16, 2008

“Control of attention is the ultimate individual power. People who can do that are not prisoners of the stimuli around them. They can choose from the patterns in the world and lengthen their time horizons. This individual power leads to others. It leads to self-control, the ability to formulate strategies in order to resist impulses. If forced to choose, we would all rather our children be poor with self-control than rich without it.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/opinion/16brooks.html

64. Mick Danger - December 16, 2008

More famous advice: “Do not sit on a running chainsaw”.

John Lennon sez: “Happiness is a Warm Gun
She’s no a girl who misses much
Do do do do do do – oh yeah
She’s well acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand
Like a lizard on a window pane

The man in the crowd with the multicoloured mirrors
On his hobnail boots
Lying with his eyes while his hands are busy
Working overtime
A soap impression of his wife which he ate
And donated to the National Trust

I need a need ’cause I’m going down
Down to the bitch that I left uptown
I need a fix cause I’m going down
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun

Happiness is a warm gun
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun, momma
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
When I hold you in my arms
(Ooooooooohh, oh yeah!)
And when I feel my finger on your trigger
I know that nobody can do me no harm
Because happiness is a warm gun, momma
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
-Yes it is, it’s a warm gun!
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
Happiness is a warm, yes it is
GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
Well don’t ya know that happiness is a warm gun, momma?
(Bang Bang Shoot Shoot)
Yeeaahhh!

65. Ellen - December 16, 2008

#53, Daily Cardiac

Thanks for your recent post. Of course, as you can imagine it gives a lot of posters here some rich fodder. You say:

“My belief is that the sequence is such a powerful and refined method of engaging and prolonging presence that it was bound to cause a major “shaking of the tree” with those who were in the school for reasons other than being present.”

Just to set the record straight, about two years ago, three elements arrived almost simultaneously not two, the sequence, the blog and information regarding non-duality. Although non-duality as a teaching has been around for milennia, due to the lack of intellectual circulation, most students are/were ignorant of it.

It is my perception, that anyone who who has spent years or even decades sincerely persuing the Fourth Way, and who thus obviously values presence quite stongly, and yet who has not disowned their own innate, natural curiousity, would find that non-duality points directly to the “I Am” (Self Remembering) as the essence of the Fourth Way. Presence, deep self inquiry, no frills, no collective ego, no judgement, no borders. All the Fellowship dogma regarding spiritual failure of former members is simply ignorance, created to hide Robert Burton’s deeply perverted shadow-dance.

As it happens, this document crossed my desk last night. Try to understand that you, in your ignorance, have been taught to judge others about affairs of which you remain ignorant:

Q: Is alleged enlightenment distinguishable from genuine?

D.T. No, not by someone who himself has no knowledge of enlightenment. The only thing you can do is look to yourself as earnestly and as deeply as possible. Then you’re already well on the way in its direction. And you will be able to clearly see, in a maximal way, how your openness relates to the other. There is however, one criterion that can be used to disqualify so-called ‘enlightenment’: the presence of selfishness. Selfishness and enlightenment by definition exclude each other. As a ‘teacher’ shows themselves to have selfish tendencies, in whatever sense, you must take your leave. Maybe there is something to learn from him or her, but not something that has to do with enlightenment.”

As ever, good luck to you…

66. elena - December 16, 2008

Thanks Crouching Tiger for the balance of your posts and everyone else too.

¨The Innenminister and Senatoren der Länder in Germany have given the following statement on a conference in Potsdam, recently (Info 2008, November 21):

This Organization, The Fellowship of Friends, is a danger for our democracy, this organization will perform a totalitarian government, it is a danger for the human beings in our society. It tries to estrange them from each other. The Members of this ORG should be well functioning instruments of an organization that misuses the term religion. It is no religion and we recommend the observation of this ORG by the human beings around the World for the Protection of the Constitution.¨

Thanks Dragon, my feelings exactly.

Laura, boring is a compliment! Please delight us with more reality sandwiches or any other selections of your choice. Anything that will raise your interest and ours.

67. elena - December 16, 2008

I wonder how long it will take the American people to take action against this totalitarian organizations like the German and French governments are doing?

68. Jomo Piñata - December 16, 2008

If you think the American people are going to take action against this totalitarian organization, you misunderstand the nature of American government. Germany has direct experience of home-grown totalitarian government and France has direct experience of the Vichy collaborators. It is a crime in Germany even to express or advocate certain ideas. Not so in the United States, nor could it be so.

69. Ellen - December 16, 2008

Hi, All,
I just got deviated by DC’s post.
Actually, I came here to write something else today.
So, my wiseacreing of the day:

Try to understand that the Fellowship of Friends, as a collective ego, necessarily interested in preserving itself and thus its leader, has needed to disown the voice of the Queen of Hearts or alternatively called the voice of the “Asshole”. Since that disowning is on the level of the collective ego, it’s very subtle, invisible yet pervasive.

Actually, the “Asshole” is not a bad voice, there are no bad dualistic voices or cards (one of the many things RB simply got wrong). The Queen of Hearts has a real and important perceptive function. She is able to distinguish emotionally harmful actions between beings (human or otherwise) and fuel the appropriate action towards redress. She is able to call out, “Fire, fire!”. If you try to dismantle her, she will continue to silently see and later come out in covert ways, because she is part of the package.

Anyone who has accepted responsibility for the organization has thereby needed to disown their individual Queen of Hearts to a greater or lesser degree. Listening to her voice once again is simple, though it can be very painful. Presence includes – not excludes – the Queen.

Check your bucket, Leroy (or Maggy, as the case may be)…

70. Kid Shelleen - December 16, 2008

Daily Cardiac wrote:

“It will save those individuals much time, money and disappointment when they would have discovered the FoF does not provide what they thought it did or what they thought they wanted.”

Does this mean I can get my $75,000 back? Who should I write to to get the ball rolling?

71. Jomo Piñata - December 16, 2008

You should see the knots Daily Cardiac will tie himself into to avoid coming face to face with the fact that he’s been conned.

72. elena - December 16, 2008

68 Jomo Piñata,

To what extent? How much are you saying they are willing to allow before they put a stop to it? I do understand that Jamestown was already far enough but if you could expand a little I would be ever so grateful. It would be good to try to understand what the obstacles really are.

Thank you for your answer

73. Jomo Piñata - December 16, 2008

The obstacles are in the U.S. Constitution. People can believe whatever they like. People can speak whatever ideas they like. That’s what freedom of speech and freedom of religion are all about.

If there is slavery going on the Government can step in. But de facto slavery going on, with shackles made of crazy religious ideas? Not something Government is likely to get involved with. For Constitutional reasons. People are free to shackle themselves with crazy religious ideas. If they’ve been deceived or defrauded, they can file lawsuits.

Not for nothing do they say, if you’ve been robbed at gunpoint of a thousand dollars, the Government will prosecute the criminal, but if you’ve been defrauded of twenty thousand dollars, the Government will say, good luck with that.

74. Jomo Piñata - December 16, 2008

“Pathway to Presence” “Practicing Presence–A Fourth Way Approach” Don’t get snookered by this pseudo-religious confidence game. You will be exploited for large amounts of money and sexual favors before being ostracized after you refuse further exploitation!

75. Another Name - December 16, 2008

DC

I am so happy that all the people/students left, who did not see the “light’, anyway. Now they can save energy money and time. The real seekers, the ones who can see the light, are staying and more devote then ever.

I am so happy to hear. So all the elderly students who do not know where to go to as they have no running insured car to go to town they saw the “light”?

The people/ students who can not sell there house are no devotees and saw the light?

The students which spouses are out of the fellowship had increase sight and the Light is on?

The students who are connected with the vineyard and are financially depend on the fellwoship saw the great light?

The Russian students who have no visa saw the light too?

The student men who have sexual issues and feel safe in the fellowship saw the light too?

The students who make money and have power saw the light too?

The students who are married with Americans and waiting for there green card saw the light too?

I am sooooo happy to hear this.

DC I hope you are mental healthy and have only pure reasons to stay in the fellowship of friends.

And please keep writing. I had several belly laughs today which promotes health.

I am sure you never saw a mental institute from the inside…no, no, no…….

76. Daily Cardiac - December 16, 2008

Elena

Jamestown was one of the original colonies (although certainly a cult if the blog’s reasoning is applied.)

You were referring to Jonestown, as in Jim Jones.

77. Jomo Piñata - December 16, 2008

Lacuna Piñata,

If Dick Cheese told you it was time to go on to your Ninth Lifetime, and handed you a Dixie cup of cyanide-laced Kool-Aid, would you drink it?

78. Miguel - December 16, 2008

Renaissance Journal, April 15, 19rl Burton85. Volumen IX Number 1
Robert Earl Burton:
“Mikhail Gorbachev, Russian head of state, is an actor appearing on the earth’s stage at a time of hydrogen warfare and, being a relatively young man, should last twenty or thirty years, until the Holocaust. The birthmark on his forehead is the worst posible omen imaginable. Influence C is showing us something very clearly, a direct hit on his forehead indicating that a direct hit on Rusia will be made by the United States; and, of course, Russia will reciprocate. God createt man, so God can destroy man.”

79. tatyana - December 16, 2008

Dear bloggers, I am studying Astrology and I would like to hear if anybody has more knowledge about it in relation to Robert Burton. It’s known that his Sun is conjunct with Uranus and is in the 8th House. As I understand it, the energy he has might be interpreted as Consciousness and make people believe that they “verified” that he is conscious. Any thoughts on that?
Thank you.

80. brucelevy - December 16, 2008

79. tatyana

That reminds me, hey DC, isn’t your head in Uranus?

81. brucelevy - December 16, 2008

And the House of the Rising Bum?

82. Daily Cardiac - December 16, 2008

Jomo, Elena

“Not for nothing do they say, if you’ve been robbed at gunpoint of a thousand dollars, the Government will prosecute the criminal, but if you’ve been defrauded of twenty thousand dollars, the Government will say, good luck with that.”

That’s because governments (our forefathers in particular) knew that lying is part of man’s psychology.

So, if someone pulls a gun on me and is seen/identified/caught he/she will be prosecuted.

But if I say “So and so told me if I give him this he will give me that. Well I gave him this but he didn’t give me that.”

Governments know the plaintiff is just as likely to be lying as the defendant. The government was not in the room when the deal was made so to them the accusations do not constitute proof.

What governments don’t know but what schools know is that in most cases the plaintiffs themselves don’t know that they are lying. Most people who lie to the court in cases where they file suits against others actually believe they are being truthful. The worst kind of lie is a lie to oneself.

Neither of you would want to live in a society where you could succeed in closing down an organization based on what is written on a blog. If you did live in such a place eventually someone would succeed in closing down you.

83. Miguel - December 16, 2008

RJ Volume IV Number II December 24, 1980

REB:
“One can not trust a man who is fond of telling deliberate lies.”

“Any one who assists in cheking crime should be consideret a great citizen.”

“The live of self-control is gentle in all respects, with mild pleasures and pains, light appetites, and desires without frenzy.”

“The body must posses virtue in all its completeness”

“The pursuit of money should come last in the scale of values.”

“Desire and pleasures cajole and seduce us so effectively thathey mould the heart like wax-even the hearts of those who loftily believe themselves superior to such influences. Surely courage is needed in the struggle against them.”

“No man should be angry at what is true.”

Robert, do what you say.

84. dragon - December 16, 2008

Laïcité is currently a core concept in the French constitution, whose Article 1 formally states that France is a secular republic (“La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale.”)

Germany has its experiences with religions, cults and Neoreligions.

But the sore point in GERMANY was the combination:

The leftovers of the Nazi period and the reproach:

Germany discriminates once more
against the followers of a RELIGION (the JEWISH RELIGION OR SCIENTOLOGY)

Therefore it is VERY IMPORTANT to testify that e.g. Scientology is NO RELIGION!

And that’s also the key in the USA, FOF = NO RELIGION and misusing the tax privileges.

They will have to pay extra!

Abuse ( mental, sexual) is the daily cruelty but the only accusation that will be promising is the sore point of the FOF:

It IS NO RELIGION!

Don’t waste time with DC’s BLABLA. Go to bed DC Boy!

85. Daily Cardiac - December 16, 2008

JP – O, the joy of associate thinking!

“If Dick Cheese told you it was time to go on to your Ninth Lifetime, and handed you a Dixie cup of cyanide-laced Kool-Aid, would you drink it?”

Of course I wouldn’t take it. If he ever handed it out that would be proof you are right about him. That would be playing God. Only those who have not verified the laws of the spirit world would try to play god.

86. Jomo Piñata - December 16, 2008

OK, Lacuna Piñata, your answer shows me there’s a spine buried somewhere in that “warm invertebrate flesh” after all!

Now the question is, what short of the proffer of the cyanide-laced Kool-Aid would provide sufficient proof to you that Dick Cheese ought not be followed as a teacher?

Surely it is unethical to urge someone who looks to you for guidance to take his own life as a means to advance spiritually.

What about urging someone who looks to you for guidance to engage in sexual activity with you as a means to advance spiritually? Or do you simply dispute that this has ever happened?

87. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

Advancing Spiritually: A Guidebook

Chapter 1. Have Sex with Robert Burton
Chapter 2. Be Careful Not to Tell Anyone
Chapter 3. Empty Your Bank Account
Chapter 4. Ignore the I’s That Want to Say No
Chapter 5. Abandon Friends Who Leave the School
Chapter 6: Don’t Question Anything
Chapter 7: Quit Your Job
Chapter 8: Ignore Your Family
Chapter 9: Nod in Agreement
Chapter 10: Have Sex with Robert Burton
Chapter 11: Look the Other Way When Your Husband Has Sex With Robert Burton
Chapter 12: Photograph Others for Lack of Valuation
Chapter 13: Be Superstitious About Numbers
Chapter 14: Ignore Your Common Sense
Chapter 15: Ignore Your Intuition
Chapter 16: Ignore Your Friends Who Question All of This
Chapter 17: Have Sex with Robert Burton
Chapter 18: Have Sex with Robert Burton
Chapter 19: Have Sex with Robert Burton
Chapter 20: Have Sex with Robert Burton
Chapter 21: Have Sex with Robert Burton
Chapter 22: Travel with Robert Burton
Chapter 23: Learn to Nod Appreciatively at the Pyramids
Chapter 24: Learn to Nod Appreciatively at Dinners
Chapter 25: Learn to Nod Appreciatively at Meetings
Chapter 26: Learn to Nod Appreciatively at Concerts
Chapter 27: Have Sex with Robert Burton
Chapter 28: Learn to Ignore Your Conscience
Chapter 29: Write Those Checks
Chapter 30: Don’t Talk About Any of This
Epilogue: Deny, Deny, Deny

88. Jomo Piñata - December 16, 2008

You found a publisher? Or was it hand-printed on vellum, with hand-set type on an Albion press?

89. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

The book is very refined.

90. tatyana - December 16, 2008

DC 85
“that would be proof you are right about him.”

I thought you take nothing for a proof.

91. Panorea - December 16, 2008

$125 a month for the book only if you purshcase before the holiday season. $175 with Robert’s signature. $200 with personal dedication.

92. Panorea - December 16, 2008

Credit Cards and Time Payments available

93. tatyana - December 16, 2008

DC, I am curious what else can be a proof to you accept the poison.
The fact that scary Robert’s predictions never came true but made hundreds of students to give up their careers, families, houses, money – is not a proof.
The fact that your behavior is controlled by the rules and your brain is being washed a few times a week – is not a proof.
The fact that you have been given disinformation and lies – not a proof.
The fact that Robert had coercive sex with hundreds of students and still has it 5 and more times a day – is not a proof.

I watched a program about Jim Jones yesterday. A woman said to Jim after he asked to “die in peace”: “I think, everyone has the right to choose for themselves!” he replied: “I am not taking away your right to decide for yourself!” And after that another cult member gave her a guilt trip about what she said. “You have no right to decide! You wouldn’t be here if not for HIM!”
Everyone except one woman poisoned their own children. The only woman who didn’t was shut in the head. All those good people were very nice and in essence, living the ideal of a better community and setting the example of an ideal citizen.

I don’t think you, DC, will have too much time to think for yourself if Robert gives you Cool-Aid. You can’t think for yourself even now, if you could you wouldn’t be there.

Plus he gives you poison every day in small portions, and you think it is good for you but it is hurting your soul.

94. lauralupa - December 16, 2008

Promising news from the artworld

AKAirways is an art group based in New York City, led by Anakin Koenig. Their focus is sculpture/installation centered on inflatable objects. The installations are transient and ephemeral, dependent on interaction and engage the environment in which they are deployed. These dynamic works are constantly changing and evolving. The group’s work has been presented in a variety of contexts, from the Museum of Modern Art to underground raves, from NASA to the Whitney Biennale.

MR: What’s your personal mantra?
AK: Think inflatable.

What does the role of Artist mean to you?
Inspire others as others have inspired me.

What is the driving force behind your creativity?
The search for the best way to live happy. This includes making my neighbors happy too. It’s a feedback loop, an exercise in which it is ok to cheat and the only person you cannot lie to is yourself. I start by a simple gesture: I make large shapes which I present in different contexts and learn from every experience.

What transformative experiences have influenced your life and how has that manifested in your work?
In my early teens I discovered by myself that I needed to pop my ears regularly to be able to dive deeper under sea level. I made that discovery because I needed to recover one of my flippers that had sunk to the bottom of the sea. That morning, for the first time, I ventured 50 feet in apnea under the surface of the sea to recover my belonging. This event made me realized several things:
– The solution to our problem is within ourselves;
– The solution is not visible and probably counter-intuitive;
– We have access to unfathomable experiences if we are creative.

How long does it take you on average to complete a piece of work, and do you ever do several pieces simultaneously?
If by “complete” you mean “design and make” I would say about two weeks, although pieces that are made by a third party take longer, usually a couple of months. If by “complete” you mean “reach the point where I feel that a piece cannot get better even if I keep working on it” I would say that it takes years. Most of my pieces have not yet reached this point of completion but I make daily progress and usually work on several pieces in parallel. I have rarely reached that point though. As I get a better understanding of materials and techniques to visualize air my goals and interests morph. This results in an organic evolution of my body of work. The ephemeral quality of my work informs and resonates with my method.

Why should people check out your work?
To be inspired and get the urgent desire to create something of their own that very night.

How does your work affect Consciousness, and what are your views on the evolution of consciousness?
We (humanity, the West, me?) need to open-up, acknowledge our humble state, break away from taboos, get rid of our fears, embrace radical exploration of ourselves and display strength through humility. After those first steps are accomplished we will be in a better position to let our consciousness evolve. I am confident this will happen and I think we are slowly going in the good direction albeit some drastic set-backs. My work points in this direction. I am concerned that it still only takes a couple of individuals to bring the project of a large group to a halt. We need to devise robust systems that are not based on confrontation but on surrender and acceptance.

from
http://www.realitysandwich.com/anakin_koenig

95. Panorea - December 16, 2008

Shakespeare said:
“This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.”

DC said: The worst kind of lie is a lie to oneself.

Your “teacher” has a huge problem distinguishing between Truth and Lies.

Yours, Snow White 🙂

96. lauralupa - December 16, 2008

This place is damp and ghostly, i am already gone
And the halls were lined with the disembodied
And dustly wings which fell from flesh
Gasplessly
And i go where the trees go
And i walk from a higher education
For now, and for hire
It beats me but i do not know
And it beats me but i do not know
It beats me but i do not know
I do not know
Palaces and stormclouds
The rought straggly sage and the smoke
And the way it will all come together
In quietness, and in time
And you laws of property
Oh, you free economy
And you unending afterthoughts;
You could’ve told me before
Never get so attached to a poem, you
Forget truth that lacks lyricism, and
Never draw so close to the heat, that
You will forget that you must eat, oh

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuRWrXWM-mA

97. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

From a Wikipedia article about so-called Stockholm Syndrome:

“Loyalty to a more powerful abuser — in spite of the danger that this loyalty puts the victim in — is common among victims of domestic abuse, battered partners and child abuse (dependent children). In many instances the victims choose to remain loyal to their abuser, and choose not to leave him or her, even when they are offered a safe placement in foster homes or safe houses. This mental phenomenon is also known as Trauma-Bonding or Bonding-to-the-Perpetrator. This syndrome was described by psychoanalysts of the object relations theory school as the phenomenon of psychological identification with the more powerful abuser. A variant of Stockholm Syndrome includes cases of abusive parents and abusive siblings in which the victim, even after entering adulthood, still justifies the family abuse.”

Something to think about… The “danger” in our case, is the sense that Burton and the FOF are being “attacked” in a critical forum, and that many former cult members have “attacked” the FOF from the beginning. During this process, many of us may have “bonded” with the idea of the FOF, and even Burton.

Without realizing it.

Do we need to break that bond? Well, in my opinion, yes. This is typical in former cult members — my time was well spent there, I learned a lot from him, he’s not that bad, there are cults everywhere, let’s move on, and so forth.

These attitudes, in my opinion, are subtle ways that we defend Burton on the blog.

Healing and harmonious thoughts are good — obviously they are — and we can definitely try to focus on what positive things await us “out here” away from the closed thinking of the cult society. But healing and health are not diametrically opposed to an open forum where some fairly strong language is used. In fact, REAL healing probably takes us there first, or we’re continuing the denial.

Just a thought — maybe not applicable to all of us here.

98. No Quiet Zone - December 16, 2008

About healing from the Fellowship of Friends Experience:

(sounds like a disneyland ride, i know)

For ME, a few people who have been extremely helpful:

Pema Chodron
Wayne Dyer (some of his audio/video lectures more than the books)
Andrew Weil
Many of You

As always, a work in progress.

99. Opus 111 - December 16, 2008

Laura #94

“Inner circle: Robert, our situation is becoming increasingly difficult. Students are leaving, those making lots of money and russian students as well. It is tough to recruit, especially those young men who will strengthen our foundation and solidify our bottom line. What should we do?

RE Burton: Think inflatable.”

100. whalerider - December 16, 2008

Daily Challenge:
“Neither of you would want to live in a society where you could succeed in closing down an organization based on what is written on a blog.”

I don’t think it would be wise or prudent to support an organization based soley upon what you read in Burton’s book or what is written in Call of the Loon, either.

At day’s end, Burton’s actions speak louder than words.

It was his actions (and the civil actions filed against him) that caused the wine distributors pull the plug and the winery go belly up.

It will be his actions that cause the closure of the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. and Pathway to Presence.

You want proof Burton is not the enlightened being you claim he is?

This simple truth:

Enlightened beings use their lives as examples in an effort to raise our moral standard not lower it.

101. Opus 111 - December 16, 2008

DC

You claim to your self, your leader and the real FOF followers an acquired (or is that innate?) ability to recognize truth, higher consciousness and greatness.

Here is my question:
What do you think the chances that you, Burton, FOF devotees or any of the recent/old FOF ex-members would recognize the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, man number eight and all, if he or she were walking the roads of Oregon House and doing daily shopping at the store, in all his/her humble glory?

102. Opus 111 - December 17, 2008

A suggestion for our FOF affiliates:

“http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,6004,00.html”

Any ideas where REB will have his tatoo inked?

103. tatyana - December 17, 2008

A conversation with a current student:

T: I just wanted to communicate to you my concern about your luck of understanding of the true nature of FOF. I do think it is a dangerous and corrosive organization where people waste a lot of time. The set of attitudes – this is what dangerous. It turns people into zombies. I’ve been trying to look at FOF with no buffers and no projection and this is what I came to.  So I do worry for you being naive about it.

F: Well I have been a member of it for 25 years. And almost all if not all of your friends have been members for over 10 years including yourself so what is there to be naieve about.

T: Naive in projecting on it your high ideals. The ideal of a conscious esoteric school with an awakened teacher as a leader.
How long you were in it does not proof that you are not naive (or I was not naive). People can remain ignorant their whole life.

F:  What I am asking is naive in what? Naive to think that I know everything? I know I do not know everything. Naive that I am chosen – I do not think of myself as chosen. Naive that I am going to go to heaven because I am in the school. I don’t or at least I should not think I am going to go to heaven simply because I belong to an organization like a church. I know it takes hard work.

T: that the deathless Gods hovering in this room helping us to be present,
that being present is enough,
that we received the Ten Commandments from the Gods,
that all “I’s” are imagination,
that there is a lower self,
that sex with Robert is good for your evolution etc.

F: Just because one is told something does not mean that one accepts it. Many of those ideas are from the forth way which I try to verify. Also think of any claim of any religion and there will be deathless gods ten commandments etc.

T: The ideas of the fourth way are different than Robert’s. There are no 44 beings in the system or ten commandments. There are no sequences, nine of hearts, lower self, gold alchemy etc. Religions are not the fourth way either. People want to believe in God or in Santa Claus, it does not make them real. I did not study other religions then Christianity but in Christianity there is a lot of BS and fantasies that only keep people in fear. I believe in spiritual development and I also try to verify and discover esoteric truth. What Robert is saying does not sound as the truth. The spiritual evolution has something to do with Conscience and doing what is right, not hurting others, and not lying.

My concern is that nice people who have nice intentions as to better themselves, to support organization based on the noble principals, contribute to the benefit of projects conducive to the spiritual development are basically wasting their time and resources on a corrupt organization which misuses their resources and confuses their minds.

F: That is a nice concern but why do you just apply this concern only to the Fellowship for there are billions of people on this planet that find some form of spiritual satisfaction that could be “wasting their time…” I think this is a personal choice. If someone is satisfied with something it is at that persons discretion if and when they want to invest their time. It is not at my decision to tell your sister or our neighbors that their catholic chuch is “corrupt organization” and that they are wasting their time.

T: Right. But why not try? Maybe they don’t know they are wasting time? Maybe they think they are paying for afterlife insurance. Also, Christian church is quite harmless. My mother is a Christian her entire life, she never did anything harmful to her family because of this. FOF is harmful because it makes people brake up with their wives/girlfriends/friends if they leave the school, be unfaithful to their partners if Robert insists, forces their wives to make an abortion (not you) if Robert wants the guy, have arranged marriages (Green Cards and money), not allows divorces (in my case with Maurizio), forces to quit jobs and families and move to Oregon House (as in 1998), makes illegal passports when Robert wants them for sex, etc.
Robert is as mechanical as every cult leader in the world. He has an absolute power within this organization because he uses tricks that work such as saying that he is a God, that he has a direct connection with the Gods and receives the secret messages from them, that he knows the future, that he knows what is good for your evolution, that if you leave him you lose the only chance to awaken and will go to the moon, etc. In reality he uses his tricks to get what he wants: money and sex.

F:  But why tell me I knew about some of these things before you even joined the school. I am not naive about them.
And I don’t think it is harmless to believe your mother is going to heaven because she sings a hymn or two – I do think this is quite harmful to the soul to believe in such fancys. In fact a soul is not earned by singing hymns and perhaps a few of  the sacrifices that you mentioned are neccesairy as payment. Sacrifices. Let’s talk about sacrifices. If a cereal sex addict asks me to have sex with him, do you think it is helpful to sacrifice my body and our relationship just in case I earn the soul?

T: Can you tell me which things exactly do you mean? I did not know for 14 years that Robert’s interpretation of the Fourth way is homemade, that he was with his teacher only 14 months and that his teacher was never a student of any fourth way teachers. I did not know that Robert has coercive sex more than 5 times a day, that he is taking anti-depressants a few times a day. I did not know how many people suffered from injustice of FOF, etc..
What about the fancys of Gods sending the secret messages to Robert, the “keying” of all esoteric traditions and art? This is harmful for the soul.
Sacrifices. Let’s talk about sacrifices. If a cereal addict asks me to have sex with him, do you think it is helpful to sacrifice my body and my relationship just in case I earn the soul?

F: What mystical statements of a religous leader makes sense? I could show you mystical statements from christ to Buddha that don’t make sense. Should we throw them all out like the communists.  Should we put christ on the cross because we dont completely understand him?

T: Buddha and Christ lived long ago (if ever) and spoke the old language which then was understood. It is hard for us to understand it for us now. But if we believe that any gibberish of a mad man is a mystical statement – we are in trouble.

F: I will put it to you this way the school is not the truth, it can only point to the truth. I would find it infinitely more interesting to talk of the truth itself which can be expressed in any art form or philosophy. And thank you for caring.
What I mean is that I am aware of traits such as his homosexuality or that he will ask students to perform tasks that go against “feminene dominence”( and I understand you have a problem with with this idea ) but which in any case are not formatory for 99.9999999999999 of people on planet earth.

Personally I am more offended if I try the Work and it does not work. I was never forced to do anything criminal. And in my years and years there I saw little criminal. I saw as much or more criminality and greed my few months out of salary in “normal” life.

104. Jomo Piñata - December 17, 2008

Thanks for posting this, Tatyana.

105. Ill Never Tell - December 17, 2008

87. No Quiet Zone – December 16, 2008

Your 30 Chapters sound a lot like the 30 imperishable work I’s. How is it that one of those several ‘Have Sex with Robert Burton’ isn’t ‘Do the Sequence and 4 Wordless Sacred Breaths’? Perhaps you are recounting the sequence of actual events as people experience/practice them in the Fellowship of Friends and there was no ‘Sequence and 4 Wordless Sacred Breaths’ being done and it is only talked about as a means to give the appearance that there is a ‘religious practice’ of some kind.

88. Jomo Piñata – December 16, 2008

Nope, ’twas hand calligraphy on deer scrotum skin with miniature painting portrait of you-know-who on cover and gold leaf illumination on each chapter title page. Oooops, sorry, that just gave you-know-who an idea for the next auction fundraiser.

89. No Quiet Zone – December 16, 2008
‘The book is very refined.’
See above.

90. tatyana – December 16, 2008
‘DC 85
“that would be proof you are right about him.”
I thought you take nothing for a proof.’

Nothing is the proof. Proof that your bank account has been emptied. Is nothing sacred? You bet your sweet bippy it is. Bank account and lower self go to nothing every month.

91. Panorea – December 16, 2008

‘$125 a month for the book only if you purshcase before the holiday season. $175 with Robert’s signature. $200 with personal dedication.’

Price is far too low for ‘hand calligraphy on deer scrotum skin with miniature painting portrait of you-know-who on cover and gold leaf illumination on each chapter title page.’ Do you have any idea how hard it is to do calligraphy on deer scrotum skin? Not to mention how difficult it is to have ‘Robert’s signature’ and ‘personal dedication’ placed there, too?

101. Opus 111 – December 16, 2008

‘DC
You claim to your self, your leader and the real FOF followers an acquired (or is that innate?) ability to recognize truth, higher consciousness and greatness.

Here is my question:
What do you think the chances that you, Burton, FOF devotees or any of the recent/old FOF ex-members would recognize the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, man number eight and all, if he or she were walking the roads of Oregon House and doing daily shopping at the store, in all his/her humble glory?’

Rodney Collin: If an angel were to appear to modern man, modern man would say, ‘What’s wrong with the T.V.?’ This being said, FoF would give him, Jesus, prospective student meeting, have him have sex with you-know-who, then go wash pots and pans in the kitchen. If not that, then it would be: Stay away; Life person with tramp feature and one with overly righteous attitude – do not cast your pearls before swine.

102. Opus 111 – December 17, 2008

‘A suggestion for our FOF affiliates:

http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,6004,00.html

Any ideas where REB will have his tatoo inked?’

Oooops, sorry, that just gave you-know-who another idea for the next auction fundraiser: Tattoo Parlor on the property where living flesh can have ‘Robert’s signature’ and ‘personal dedication’ along with the words “be present”. That way there would be no doubt as to who created that work of art and who owned that sheep. That would be real ‘dedication’ and loyalty to your teacher. [Notice that there is a ’44’ in that URL you supplied. Influence C at work.]

106. peter - December 17, 2008

107. Daily Cardiac - December 17, 2008

Ellen – 65:

Happy Holidays to you and yours.

Is D T anyone I would know?

Ellen – “Although non-duality as a teaching has been around for milennia, due to the lack of intellectual circulation, most students are/were ignorant of it.”

Actually this statement, in my estimation, is not entirely true.

The teaching that the self is one/unified/non-dual is certainly from the beginning of recorded time. But non-dualism, as it has been presented by you and others on the blog is about 50 – 60 years old and probably had roots with people like Krisnamurti, Merton, Ginsberg, Snyder,etc.

All ancient/esoteric spiritual/religious teachings without exception instructed two things – one: the non-dual nature of the soul/self. And two: the existence of an adversary opposed to the realization of the self. Call it what you will – Satan, demon, Golaith, Seth, Ravana, lower self, machine, ego.

The new age version of non-dualism slowly began to diminish the aspect of the adversary until the time of people like Adyashanti, Wheeler,etc. when it is completely dropped from the equation.

So, without the adversary in the picture there is no longer a need to struggle with any inward entity. And without that need there is no necessity to find the tools needed for true enlightenment.

No need to make any efforts to “rewire the hard drive.” We have a queen of hearts, so let her out of the pen whenever she gets unruly. The teacher has a problem student; no problem, just let him take over the classroom whenever he has the urge. Eventually he’ll calm down and we can continue the studies. Well that might not be fair to the most dedicated students, but what to do; if we don’t let the class clown perform he’ll let the air out of our tires after school.

” Just don’t “invest” in your “I’s” and you can have all of them. If the mind wants to babble, let it babble.”

But as I see it the babbling is the investment.

And if you really stop investing in them they will eventually go away, and one will be in the third state. But that requires specific efforts that are not found in present day non-dualism.

If there is no dark there can be no light. Light only exists because there is darkness. The unified self can only exist because there is also the fractured lower self.

Look around at the world today. Do you see it composed of people who are at one with their non dual nature? Do you see order or chaos, or both? If you see both you see light and dark. You see a dualistic world.

The only question that remains is – who wants to move from darkness to light? Who wants to traverse that distance?

108. Yesri Baba - December 17, 2008

“And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
The Gospel according to Saint John

No distance.

109. Crouching Tiger - December 17, 2008

I took a peek at the ‘Pathway to Presence’ website yesterday. It’s actually quite good in the abstract, well-presented and clear, and there’s probably not too much you’d argue with as a bank of knowledge.

But I did feel a certain gnawing sense of discomfort, one traceable to the fact that so much information was put on the front page of a website supposedly advertising an esoteric school in the first place.

When there is such a heavy investment in the ‘outside’ of the Work, it means that there is less energy available for the more inner aspects. The Work is going to the wrong place. There is a story of the sufi saint Al-Hallaj, who proclaimed ‘I am the Truth’ and was promptly dismembered and beheaded by his fellows.

My experience of the fellowship was that what was true of the institution as a whole, in terms of self-promotion, was also true about the character of the community. There was endless talk about the Work, about body types and centres of gravity and lifetimes and ladders and synchronous happenings and C-influence etc, which kept the mind fascinated by it and, so to speak, kept it as ‘an outside’. There was a very strong emphasis on the ‘good student act’, and noble appearances at dinners and the like…

The hyper-enthusiasm about the Sequence, once it had been invented in OH, seemed to come from the same place. Instead of being one tool among many others, it became the be-all and end-all. Students were told to repeat the Sequence endlessly throughout the day. That would solve any and all problems. Again, a tremendous identification with method, with the ‘outside’ of the Work.

Most people who made any kind of experiments with their inner life know that methods are ephemeral. What works one day, mysteriously does not work that next. ‘What got here, won’t get you there’. So there’s a constant state of desperate improvisation, and a humility in the face of the new, waking day…

In my experience, the Work requires above all, humility, delicacy, suppleness. A sense that the great mystery of life, inner and outer, will only reveal itself when it is good and ready, and by the moment. Never on ‘your’ terms. ‘My’ only task is to preserve and defend that mystery, that ‘I do not know’, at all costs…

The Sequence as it is taught would like to bully that mystery into an individual’s sense of their own ‘presence’ in ten definite steps. The website advertising wants to bully that question-mark inside a curious man/woman, headlong into the fellowship. It has been documented here that RB, when he asks for sex from a doubting partner, sometimes says “C-influence want us to be together”… Again, it is a form of esoteric bullying that comes from the wrong place. What is that place? The motive is not the stated one.

The main problem with DC is that ‘he speaks as if he knows’, despite his many denials and the accusation of the same feature he levels constantly at others. Almost certainly, he does not know the effect he is creating. He does not know that particular ‘Daily Cardiac’.

He knows about, in his latest post, non-dualism – just as he knows about the 4th Way and C-influence and the process of verification…. This is not the heart of the Work. I, for one, would much rather hear from the ‘Daily Cardiac’ that experienced, quite by chance, something of the mystery in which we all live, if such a one exists. Give us anything but this good student, and this conscious school, that knows everything!

110. Yesri Baba - December 17, 2008

DC

You have no understanding of truth, reality.
You will never come to it on the path you are on.
You are going directly in the wrong direction.

111. Draco - December 17, 2008

82/DC
“But if I say “So and so told me if I give him this he will give me that. Well I gave him this but he didn’t give me that.”

Governments know the plaintiff is just as likely to be lying as the defendant. The government was not in the room when the deal was made so to them the accusations do not constitute proof.”

It’s another silly analogy, DC. What you’ve described is an oral contract that wasn’t fulfilled. Courts deal with this stuff all the time. If you order a Big Mac and they give you a cheeseburger instead, and refuse to offer a refund, you can take them to court. People do it all the time.

112. Draco - December 17, 2008

DC/107
“Actually this statement, in my estimation, is not entirely true.

The teaching that the self is one/unified/non-dual is certainly from the beginning of recorded time. But non-dualism, as it has been presented by you and others on the blog is about 50 – 60 years old and probably had roots with people like Krisnamurti, Merton, Ginsberg, Snyder,etc. ”

You just throw this stuff out hoping that some of it will stick to the wall.
Nondualism is an English translation of “advaita”, “nondual”. Advaita Vedanta, the nondualistic interpretation of the Vedic scriptures is traced back to the 8th century AD, but many argue that it is intrinsic to the Vedas, which were written several centuries BC.

113. harryhindsight - December 17, 2008

Daily Bacardiac

“All ancient/esoteric spiritual/religious teachings without exception instructed two things – one: the non-dual nature of the soul/self. And two: the existence of an adversary opposed to the realization of the self. Call it what you will – Satan, demon, Golaith, Seth, Ravana, lower self, machine, ego.”

The non-dual nature of the soul could not by definition include an adversary, it’s a transparently conceptual construct . Non-dual as in not two, no soul and it’s adversary D.C. No lower self!

114. dragon - December 17, 2008

“The only question that remains is – who wants to move from darkness to light? Who wants to traverse that distance?” DC

Listening to that phrase, I saw a woolly mammoth about 12,000 years ago, I saw the hunting, the fear, the courage, the will to survive, the wish to make the hunt more controlled, more safe. I saw fire and I saw the first attempts of magic (later religion). It was the magic of respect for the donator of life, the mammoth.

And religion may be fire.

Fire, arguably, is important to life after air, water, and food. Fire, broadly defined, is energy. And energy runs the world. It fuels the body, operates the mind, heats homes, and runs endless machines and instruments.

When energy is put to good use, it is the boon of mankind. And when it is misused or abused it is the bane of humanity. Therefore, credit or blame rests with the user of energy.

Religion is a special case of energy in the same way that steam is a derivation of fire. Steam engines move mass in physical space. Religion, emotional energy, propels people’s mind in the metaphysical realm.

Civilized societies have rules and regulations, albeit many of them flawed and imperfect, which regulate energy use. The fire of religion must also be contained in such a manner to do whatever good it may be able to do and prevent it from becoming a consuming wildfire.

There are those who have no use for religion. Those people have perhaps seen so much burning and scorching by religion that they have abandoned it or have even taken active positions fighting it.

There are also those who don’t seem to be able to make do without a religion of some sort, preferably a “divine” religion. These people value the warmth that the religious fire gives them, the assurance it provides that the cold earth is not their end, and the promise that there is an eternal life of bliss after death. It is only fair that the “fire” that keeps the religionist warm not set ablaze the home of the non-religious.

Some questions for religionists:

A belief qualifies as “divine” religion because someone claims it is?

A belief becomes religion because millions believe in it?

Should religion and state interlace? Which religion? The religion of the majority in any given country?

Should being a religionist confer the person preferential status over the non-religious?

Should religionists have complete freedom to practice their belief, even when they infringe on the rights of others?

Should religionists have the right to vilify as heathen the people of other persuasions and those of no religious belief?

Should religionists have the right to force their belief on others?

Should religionists actively engage in the subjugation or elimination or degradation (LIFE PEOPLE, FOOD FOR THE MOON…if those terms are used without a far-reaching explanation)of the non-religious?

In civilized societies, it is granted that what is good for one person must also be good for the next. This is egalitarianism. Egalitarianism levels the playing field, where every human being must abide by the same rules of fair play. No one has a claim to special privileges for himself and his group.

With respect to religion, it matters not that someone claims that he is the emissary of the Creator (or the 44); that he is bringing binding teachings from the Lord.

There is no objective way of ascertaining the truth or falsehood of the claim.

The claimant may be a charlatan, mentally disturbed, or indeed an emissary of the divine.

What really matters is that the claimant and his claim serve the cause of the good for all of mankind and completely shun causing contention and strife among people.

The moment a religious founder begins claiming special privileges for himself and his followers, he launches a discriminating totalitarianism.

115. Ellen - December 17, 2008

107, Daily Cardiac
Thanks for the greetings, I’ll pass them on, and the same to you.
“Is D T anyone I would know?”
Pick up a copy of “I Am That”. He wrote the foreword. We (me and mine) are currently working on translating his books into English. So, you will know of him…

You say:
“The teaching that the self is one/unified/non-dual is certainly from the beginning of recorded time.”
Good, you are making progress.

“But non-dualism, as it has been presented by you and others on the blog is about 50 – 60 years old and probably had roots with people like Krisnamurti, Merton, Ginsberg, Snyder,etc.”
Ooops. Now your ignorance is showing once again. Check out Shankara, Dattatreya and the 20th century masters like Ramana Maharshi or Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. And don’t read just one sound bite, dive in and stop taking things out of context, you naughty boy!

“All ancient/esoteric spiritual/religious teachings without exception instructed two things – one: the non-dual nature of the soul/self. And two: the existence of an adversary opposed to the realization of the self. Call it what you will – Satan, demon, Golaith, Seth, Ravana, lower self, machine, ego. “
If you put on rose tinted glasses, everything will be rosy. But is it true? Isn’t it a matter of perception? The dualistic world of the self is only adversarial to the extent to which it is disowned. Otherwise, it can become relaxed and transparent just like a baby surrenders to its loving parents.

“The new age version of non-dualism slowly began to diminish the aspect of the adversary until the time of people like Adyashanti, Wheeler,etc. when it is completely dropped from the equation.”
When the essence of enlightenment is fully understood, all the extraneous chaff falls away.

“So, without the adversary in the picture there is no longer a need to struggle with any inward entity. And without that need there is no necessity to find the tools needed for true enlightenment.”
???? Need here translates into an ego based fear, chasing its own shadow. If you want a tools, there is yoga, there is meditation, there are mantras, for relaxing and stilling the mind, but true desire (not fear) comes from a different place.

“And if you really stop investing in them [the “I’s”] they will eventually go away, and one will be in the third state.”
Eh, voila! Maybe even the fourth. You are making progress!

“But that requires specific efforts that are not found in present day non-dualism.”
Ooops. Your ignorance is showing once again. Truly, you don’t know what you are talking about. And someday you will be embarrassed.

“If there is no dark there can be no light. “
Now you’re talking about the Unmanifest. That’s big stuff.

“Light only exists because there is darkness. The unified self can only exist because there is also the fractured lower self.”
Take out the word fractured and I might agree with you here, however the nature of the unified self is light. Focus there, on your true nature, and everything else “darkness” included, dissolves.

“And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
The Gospel according to Saint John (thanks, Yesri)

116. Ellen - December 17, 2008

#109, Crouching Tiger,

CT: “I took a peek at the ‘Pathway to Presence’ website yesterday. It’s actually quite good in the abstract, well-presented and clear, and there’s probably not too much you’d argue with as a bank of knowledge.”

Look closer, the devil is in the details. I haven’t studied it thoroughly myself, but one passage on the Thought subpage struck me as a typical Fellowship smorgasboardy misunderstanding:

“The aim of an esoteric school is to help its students create a self separate from the body that can ultimately survive physical death.”

It sounds very good doesn’t it? I want that, don’t you? Let’s rephrase it:

“The aim of an esoteric school [if you are lucky enough to find a pure, clean one] is to help its students dissolve their separate sense of self, which can reveal both birth and death of the physical body to be an illusion.”

117. Mick Danger - December 17, 2008

America, ain’t it Grand?
Freedom of speach,
Freedom of religion,
Freedom of the press,
All this and the Right to arm bears!

(Don’t dial down the HAhaHAHa’s too much, Yesri)

118. Crouching Tiger - December 17, 2008

Ellen: I take your point.

119. Mick Danger - December 17, 2008

12 out of 118 = 10.17%
If you thought 5% was boring, take twice as much.

“When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream & shout”.

“Take my advice you’d be better off dead”.

120. dragon - December 17, 2008

America is a country with a history and a constitution developed by the immigrants (also religiously persecuted) from Europe.

Those people claimed to have evoled a “better” , a new form of constitution, wich enables the citizens to live under an “atmosphere” of religious freedom.

In former times it was a constitution with the best of intentions but in due course the consequences of completely “religious” freedom are a danger for the American society (and Europe as well), it should be taken seriously to think it over and to negotiate new limits.

Ellen quoted:

“The aim of an esoteric school [if you are lucky enough to find a pure, clean one] is to help its students dissolve their separate sense of self, which can reveal both birth and death of the physical body to be an illusion.”

It is a rich and extraordinary turn of writing and that is the idea behind our striving if we are in the position or if we live under conditions, which enable us to do so…..

And it is the way towards our humanity towards our fellow man.

It doesn’t seperate… because it knows what life is.

121. elena - December 17, 2008

73. Jomo Piñata – December 16, 2008
The obstacles are in the U.S. Constitution. People can believe whatever they like. People can speak whatever ideas they like. That’s what freedom of speech and freedom of religion are all about.

If there is slavery going on the Government can step in. But de facto slavery going on, with shackles made of crazy religious ideas? Not something Government is likely to get involved with. For Constitutional reasons. People are free to shackle themselves with crazy religious ideas. If they’ve been deceived or defrauded, they can file lawsuits.¨

Thank you Jomo for that insight. May I ask: Aren’t those freedoms that the Constitution guarantees as Constitutional as Civil Rights that people have? If the institution is acting against people’s Civil Rights in performing its Freedoms, don’t we have a situation in which the Constitutional Freedoms and Rights need to be clarified by the people of the time according to the present situation?

I think I understand what you are telling us, what I am asking is, is there no one, no way to push this conflict of interests of the Constitution into an actual case that can clarify people’s Freedoms without violating people’s rights? Isn’t the non-solidified aspect of the law precisely the opportunity to push these issues forward?

People’s Civil Rights are there in the Constitution as strongly as people’s freedoms. Why would people’s Freedoms have a greater stand than people’s rights? Is there no case in the fact that Cults are not just religions but thought reform environments in which people, by the habit of custom are reduced to slavery? Is the difficulty in the fact that present laws do not conceive of psychological slavery which is what Cults reduce the members into?

I am not a lawyer, I only studied it for a year and a half, so please forgive my ignorance in the matter.

I thank you in advance. I much value your insights to these questions.

109 Crouching Tiger: ¨Most people who made any kind of experiments with their inner life know that methods are ephemeral. What works one day, mysteriously does not work that next. ‘What got here, won’t get you there’. So there’s a constant state of desperate improvisation, and a humility in the face of the new, waking day…¨

Dragon: ¨What really matters is that the claimant and his claim serve the cause of the good for all of mankind and completely shun causing contention and strife among people.

The moment a religious founder begins claiming special privileges for himself and his followers, he launches a discriminating totalitarianism.¨

Thank you both for the totality of your posts. They are gems. And everyone else too.

122. Yesri Baba - December 17, 2008

A guy is on vacation in Jamaica and is taking a leak in his hotel lounge bathroom.
Standing at the urinal next to him is a scrapping young black man.
Glancing over the guy notices the tattoo ‘HY’ on the black man’s penis.
He says: “Hey, what a coincidence I have the same tattoo” and pulls out a bit to show the “HY’ tattooed on his dick.
He says: “I had it put there for my girlfriend, when I get a boner it says ‘Wendy’. What a coincidence our ladies have the same name” (I forgot to mention he was an fof cult member and this was a c-influence pecker shock)
The Young black man turns to him and replies: “That’s not my girls name, maan, I am a hotel greeter for your teacher, it says, “Welcome to Jamaica, maan, have a nice day.”

123. harryhindsight - December 17, 2008

Dail Bacardiac

Your little treatise on Advaita revealed primarily that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

The Fellowship is not a school of consciousness and you as premium P.R. shill exemplify and reveal the poverty of what passes there for real insight and teaching. It’s all very fine burbling on about the sequence with people as entrenched and hypnotized as yourself. You share a consensual view of reality with the other inmates and feel that you’re obviously making sense, since everyone nods when you do. Take one step outside of the shared conceptual model and you’re a beached whale, as you’ve demonstrated here with your last post.

Many left the Fellowship upon realizing that Burton is hopelessly lost in his divisive view of reality. Many more will.

As subject matter, better for you to stick to disembodied angels hoovering about or Rhino poop, or maybe a prediction or two it’s a lot funnier at least.

124. Jomo Piñata - December 17, 2008

I think I understand what you are telling us, what I am asking is, is there no one, no way to push this conflict of interests of the Constitution into an actual case that can clarify people’s Freedoms without violating people’s rights? Isn’t the non-solidified aspect of the law precisely the opportunity to push these issues forward?

People’s Civil Rights are there in the Constitution as strongly as people’s freedoms.

Have you read the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights or the Amendments to the Constitution?

The First Amendment, which is the first right listed in the Bill of Rights, says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

The Bill of Rights to the United States Constitution is a document that limits the power of Government with respect to individuals. It is a limit on the power of Government. It tells Government it can’t make certain kinds of laws. That’s mostly what it does. It doesn’t say what people can or can’t believe. It doesn’t say people can’t shackle themselves with crazy religious ideas to a bozo with a convincing act. On the contrary, it says that if you want to shackle yourself, by means of crazy religious ideas, to a bozo with a convincing act because it’s your religion, the Government cannot make a law that stops you.

Freedom of speech doesn’t mean you’re free to say what you like in the United States. If I run a small business and you show up wearing a “Schwarzenegger for President” button or a T-shirt that says, “The Iraq War is Wrong and Bush is an Idiot” I can make you take it off. In most places in the U.S. I can fire you. The Constitution doesn’t guarantee you the right to say what you want. It says that the Government can’t pass a law that says what people can and can’t say to each other.

125. Jomo Piñata - December 17, 2008

Just to be clear, in the example that I gave regarding wearing a button or a T-shirt, I am the employer and you are an employee.

126. No Quiet Zone - December 17, 2008

Jomo Piñata,
Speaking of legal questions…

Fraud is an interesting topic when it comes to the FOF, because many people are not fully aware — at least initially — of the organization’s objectives. Burton is promoting one set of beliefs, but practicing another, and furthering a hidden agenda (money, greed, sex with his followers). Therefore, people are donating money without the full knowledge of what they are donating the money for.

Anyway, I’d be interested in hearing your analysis on that. I’m sure the FOF and Burton are fraudulent. But legally fraudulent, I don’t know.

And speaking of t-shirts, yours would be cool. Here’s one design:

Jomo Piñata
[your bird logo]
fofdiscussion.wordpress.com

Burton may not allow people to where that around campus.

127. No Quiet Zone - December 17, 2008

Actually, you already answered my question in #73:

“People are free to shackle themselves with crazy religious ideas. If they’ve been deceived or defrauded, they can file lawsuits.”

128. Jomo Piñata - December 17, 2008

You can write to me at jomopinata@gmail.com. Legal analysis, I dunno, but I can tell you what I think.

129. No Quiet Zone - December 17, 2008

Btw, I’m sure your t-shirt would be a big seller at the OregHouse store. Every time you stocked them, an fof rep would buy them up to prevent the bad pub. Anyway… thanks for the email address.

130. Mick Danger - December 17, 2008

Arm Bears
Bare Arms
Bear Feet
Bare Feet
Bear Arms
Armed Feet
Don’t Shoot, I’m only the messenger of Doom.
Happiness is …….

131. Daily Cardiac - December 17, 2008

Opus 111- 101:

“Here is my question:
What do you think the chances that you, Burton, FOF devotees or any of the recent/old FOF ex-members would recognize the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, man number eight and all, if he or she were walking the roads of Oregon House and doing daily shopping at the store, in all his/her humble glory?”

If there is a modern day Christ in OH it would only matter that they themselves are aware of their Christ nature for all to be realized.

But I think anyone who is aspiring to those same ideals who would come to know that individual would also take notice.

As the saying goes – “It takes a poet to recognize a poet.”

132. Jomo Piñata - December 17, 2008

Jomo Piñata asked,

“If Dick Cheese told you it was time to go on to your Ninth Lifetime, and handed you a Dixie cup of cyanide-laced Kool-Aid, would you drink it?”

Lacuna Piñata responded,

“Of course I wouldn’t take it. If he ever handed it out that would be proof you are right about him. That would be playing God. Only those who have not verified the laws of the spirit world would try to play god.”

Jomo Piñata:

“I would die for my students and I expect the same.”

This quote is taken verbatim from Renaissance Journal. If you doubt me, go back to the source. What if he asked you to give your life for him? What do you make of the fact that he “expects the same?” How do you reconcile what you wrote with the above statement?

133. Walter J. Tanner - December 17, 2008

Daily Cardiac’s commitment to a spiritual ‘adversary’ is, in 4th Way language, a buffer. With this buffer in place Fellowship students can forgive Robert for his sexual depravity, since his high level of consciousness correspondingly has to fight a much bigger adversary. Of course the argument is circular, but all religious thinking is so.

DC, if you can just accept your ‘machine,’ accept all your desires both base and refined, then consciousness has a chance, Being has a chance of reconciling all these messy things in our psychologies and creating something better approximating a healthy unity.

Robert hates his body, he wants to be a female. That hatred for the body is borne by his students, who carry it in their cells as shown in that horrid video when some students visited that guru-guy. They’re worse than the Catholics, for Christ’s sake!

Interestingly, though, Robert himself gives you the clues to escape this mode of Being:

Was it doubted that those who corrupt their own bodies conceal themselves;
And if those who defile the living are as bad as they who defile the dead?
And if the body does not do as much as the Soul?
And if the body were not the Soul, what is the Soul?

The love of the Body of man or woman balks account—the body itself balks account;
That of the male is perfect, and that of the female is perfect.

The circling rivers, the breath, and breathing it in and out,
The beauty of the waist, and thence of the hips, and thence downward toward the knees,
The thin red jellies within you, or within me—the bones, and the marrow in the bones,
The exquisite realization of health;
O I say, these are not the parts and poems of the Body only, but of the Soul,
O I say now these are the Soul!

from WW “I Sing the Body Electric”

walter.tanner@gmail.com

134. whalerider - December 17, 2008

Daily Challenge:
As the saying goes – “It takes a poet to recognize a poet.”

What if you are a poet and you don’t know it?

135. Panorea - December 17, 2008

The fact is that the Fellowship of Friends has become what it has become because it is considered a Church in the United States. It is actually the only status it has. The teacher has nowhere to stand on. No tradition to follow, no teacher of his own (Horn was just a few months situation, I have heard Robert saying that he did not want to meet with him even when Horn called him and asked him for.)

The entire “spiritual” area is so tricky and vague. If you have a profession which brings you close to human beings and their vulnerability (like school teachers, therapists, etc.) there are laws to protect abuse. When it comes to “spiritual teachers” the whole story changes and it suddenly becomes one’s own responsibility, stupidity, just name it.

In a way the whole Buzbee affair back in the 90s should have closed the Fellowship down. For most of us, it has taken more than a decade to feel the enormity of Robert’s abuse.

136. Daily Cardiac - December 17, 2008

Draco – 111:

“It’s another silly analogy, DC. What you’ve described is an oral contract that wasn’t fulfilled. Courts deal with this stuff all the time. If you order a Big Mac and they give you a cheeseburger instead, and refuse to offer a refund, you can take them to court. People do it all the time.”

My analogy silly?

If you pay for a cheeseburger you have no right to demand a Big Mac. If you pay a school for the right to develop a soul and you don’t follow their dictates you have no right to expect positive results.

137. Panorea - December 17, 2008

The difference between Robert Earl Burton and God is that God does not think he is Robert Earl Burton

138. Yesri Baba - December 17, 2008

Correction-

Tattoo was KY…, I mean, WY.

139. No Quiet Zone - December 17, 2008

Panorea: “In a way the whole Buzbee affair back in the 90s should have closed the Fellowship down. For most of us, it has taken more than a decade to feel the enormity of Robert’s abuse.”

A forum with open discussion helps.

Although that doesn’t seem to stop many of us from ignoring and forgetting and continuing to write the checks. But it’s my opinion that few people in the FOF could read the blog without eventually leaving. One sentence may be enough for some. 59 pages may be enough for someone else. My advice: If you don’t want to leave, don’t read it.

************

137. Panorea: “The difference between Robert Earl Burton and God is that God does not think he is Robert Earl Burton”

That’s a good one.

If there are spiritual beings, such as God or “gods” or “angels”, here’s another very big difference between them and REB….

“They” understand the connectedness of things — of all of us with each other, to each other, and to everything.

REB’s mission: Try to separate himself. Those following him are trying the same. Ego. Life people vs. students. And so on.

140. elena - December 17, 2008

No quiet zone: ¨My advice: If you don’t want to leave, don’t read it.¨

Your posts help, thank you for being here but my advice is read, read enough so that if you stay you still understand where you are and what you’re doing. Many will choose that and carry the consequences just like everyone else but some people can choose. Ignorance is damnation, not bliss.

Thanks Jomo, don’t have time right now but I’ll keep searching and hopefully we’ll all see deeper.

141. aline - December 17, 2008

#136 Panorea
Yes, that’s a good one

142. dick moron - December 17, 2008

DC 135

If you pay for a cheeseburger you have no right to demand a Big Mac. If you pay a school for the right to develop a soul and you don’t follow their dictates you have no right to expect positive results.
_________________
Translation:
If you buy miracle soul-growing tonic from a smooth-talking snake-oil salesman, and don’t follow the exact instructions on the label, you have no right to expect a refund.
Buyer beware.

If you pay for a fillet and get served a tube steak instead—Run!

143. Mick Danger - December 17, 2008

From 1558 until 1829, Roman Catholics in England were not permitted to practice their faith openly. Someone during that era wrote this carol as a catechism song for young Catholics. It has two levels of meaning: the surface meaning plus a hidden meaning known only to members of their church. Each element in the carol has a code word for a religious reality which the children could remember.
-The partridge in a pear tree was Jesus Christ.
-Two turtle doves were the Old and New Testaments.
-Three French hens stood for faith, hope and love.
-The four calling birds were the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John.
-The five golden rings recalled the Torah or Law, the first five books of the Old Testament.
-The six geese a-laying stood for the six days of creation.
-Seven swans a-swimming represented the sevenfold gifts of the Holy Spirit–Prophesy, Serving, Teaching, Exhortation, Contribution, Leadership, and Mercy.
-The eight maids a-milking were the eight beatitudes.
-Nine ladies dancing were the nine fruits of the Holy Spirit–Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self Control.
-The ten lords a-leaping were the ten commandments.
-The eleven pipers piping stood for the eleven faithful disciples.
-The twelve drummers drumming symbolized the twelve points of belief in the Apostles’ Creed.

144. lauralupa - December 17, 2008

the FoF worldview is simply obsolete, indulging in it a total waste of time, a cul-de-sac, a step back into the dark ages.

“There is only One machine.
The web is its OS.
All screens look into the One.
No bits will live outside the web.
To share is to gain.
Let the One read it.
The One is us.”

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yDYCf4ONh5M

145. The FOFion - December 18, 2008

Irate Student Hurls Shoes at Burton

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — A disgruntled student hurled his shoes at Robert Burton, founder and CEO of the Fellowship of Friends, during a press conference at the Galleria Wednesday.

Fellowship Secret Service wrestled the student to the floor before escorting him out of the building and knocking him upside the head a few times.

Authorities apologized to Burton for the security gaffe. At future events, students will be asked to take off their shoes before entering, whether it’s raining or not.

“We really can’t have this,” said a tuxedo-clad usher, who asked to remain anonymous.

Burton, the lame-duck teacher of the FOF, easily evaded the shoes before being taken to safety. He later joked with reporters.

“That was a lame duck on my part,” Burton said, winking to a young man in the front row of reporters.

The press conference was also marred by protesters, who held up signs that read, “You Are Perhaps Members of a Cult” during the meeting.

“All in all, not a good day,” a spokesman said. “But much like the Illinois Governor, we’re upbeat.”

The name for the Fellowship Secret Service, contrary to recent rumors, is not a double entendre.

146. harryhindsight - December 18, 2008

Daily BigMac,

“If you pay a school for the right to develop a soul and you don’t follow their dictates you have no right to expect positive results.”

Hey D.B. you have a mind resembling Swiss cheese.

and by the way…….more than three people using the sequence in close proximity will cause popcorn to explode.

147. Wildz - December 18, 2008

134 Panorea – December 17, 2008

“In a way the whole Buzbee affair back in the 90s should have closed the Fellowship down. For most of us, it has taken more than a decade to feel the enormity of Robert’s abuse.”

It closed the Fellowship of Friends down for me, but not for R. Bzb’s best friend at the time. He is still in and I am pretty sure he does not read the blog or spend time on the internet in general. Yet, I will not stop helping to shine the light on the dark side of the Fellowship of Friends. Who knows who is paying attention.

148. ton - December 18, 2008

145 wildz…
did i ‘hear’ you correctly…. buzbee is still in the fof???!!!

waddup widdat??!!

149. Wildz - December 18, 2008

Sorry, Buzbee’s best friend at the time is still in

150. Wildz - December 18, 2008

To clarify, Buzbee’s best friend from back in the 90’s is still in the Fellowship of Friends

151. fofblogmoderator - December 18, 2008

144 is newly moderated and is hilarious

152. ton - December 18, 2008

wildz… thanks for the clarification…. i was gonna say….!

thanks to DC for more examples of cognitive dissonce (CG):

“Gurjieff was reported to have said ‘Observe how life acts and do the opposite.'”

the gospel according to ‘gurjieff.’ somthing some dead guy said (and isn’t around to explain it) this may increase the range of interpretation and application but it doesn’t add value or meaning. dc, at least get the name right… you have no idea what gurdjieff was about.

and another example of CG from DC:

“Most seekers who have a mature magnetic center have already begun the process of discarding many of life’s values. Ordinary life has proved to be a dead end. They are truly seeking a way off the wheel of life and the accompanying psychology of life.”

nice example of cult-speak… “mature magnetic center” — tp all prospective sudents: you’ll have to pay the fof dearly and lot of money to find out what a “mature magnetic center” really is. whether cult-think acknowledges it or not, the fof is a brackish little backwater in the ocean of life.

“More than anything they are tired of negativity; tired of being judged, tired of going with the status quo.”

dc, you sound like a real misanthrope…. if you don’t have the stomach for life, then there is an alternative…. but then you wouldn’t have the stomach for that either. learn to love life and stop wasting the air we breathe!

dc and any shill posting here is not about change, the shill’s role is to support the status quo of the cult… and cultish thinking in general.

thanks to all you agents of change….. and especially those who use lightness and humor…. you know who you are.

153. elena - December 18, 2008

Hi Jomo,

There are of course many aspects but could we explore at least a few?

Does the Fellowship not violate the right to freedom of speech? I think it does and the point for me is that in doing so, it imposes tremendous psychological damages on its members. Psychological damages that are conducive to the pattern of dependence and submission to authority. What people are doing when they submit to a dictatorial authority is try to survive, especially if they are economically, emotionally or intellectually dependent on that authority.

The hierarchic structure of the society we live in is no mystery and at the same time all the mystery is precisely in the hierarchic structure of our societies: The fact that we, human beings, have been willing to submit to authorities either because we trust them and believe in them or because we are afraid of confronting them and the people in our community that support them. The magic of the blog is that this is probably the first time that any one of us participates in a community in which practically no one has more rights than others.

For me the great lesson worth learning of why we submitted to Robert and the structure of the Fellowship is the understanding that healthy human beings want to be part of the whole. Want to participate. Want to belong. HAVE A RIGHT TO BELONG AND TO PARTICIPATE.

What happened to us for being willing to sacrifice our selves for the Fellowship for that right to belong and participate is worth looking at deeply because it is my belief that what the Fellowship abused and took advantage of was this natural human impulse to belong to the community of human beings. Following this impulse came trust and it was the member’s trust what was used and abused against them.

I understand that all contracts are based on good will and trust. It was our unconditional trust what made it possible for the Fellowship to rip us off for so long. The question here could be: Why were we supposed to not trust our partners (the Fellowship) if all contracts are based on trust? Why are we supposed to stand on the idea that it is too bad for us if we trust when in law that is the natural expectation of human beings: That they can trust each other? That they go into contracts based on the good will of the associate? And then if we could prove that we carried out our part of the deal, paid for what we came for, worked what we were asked to work and still, were never given the opportunity to develop as human beings in a Conscious School of Awakening, never allowed to participate and abused economically, emotionally and intellectually, wouldn’t it be the Fellowship who would have to prove that it kept its part of the deal in good will?

Where is the good will in the fact that it hides the facts?
The facts on how money is distributed for example.

I understand neither Robert nor any other member can profit personally from the income and we all know that Robert and many others have made private profits from the Fellowship. What stops the possibility of a case? That we would have to prove who, when and where and those who know in the Greater Fellowship are keeping their mouths shut?

Was Girard allowed to get a private parcel of land like Steven D, I think and others?

To be very honest I think Girard deserved to get paid for his labour like many others, and not just the meagre payments that Robert handed out but that is not the point. The fact that the Girards of the Fellowship have been as ripped off as the rest of us, does not make the Fellowship any more honest, it simply proves that Robert abused everyone and the Girards were sick enough to convince themselves that it was O.K. because they too were ripping people off in other ways that compensated. The lust for psychological power is behind every authoritarian act. It is the false ego what grows by submitting others into having to conform to their position. In factories, people have to submit to the authorities because they need the payment but in Cults, they submit because they need the camaraderie! The human contact. They do it, because they are psychologically, that is, emotionally and intellectually dependent even if not economically.

So the abuse that must be valid in a court of law is not just the economic or physical abuse but the emotional and intellectual abuse.

The fact that Fourth Way Cults suppress freedom of speech is more harmful than if they kept people in strict diets. Why would it be difficult for us to prove that the Fellowship of Friends presented itself as a Fourth Way School and in fact never practiced the Fourth Way but deceived us all along when the facts could not be more obvious?
A ¨Teacher’s¨ freedom to teach cannot be so wide that he can change every aspect of the so called System on which he is pretending to stand and not be deceiving the members. If the Fellowship had been a monastery, or a school for Fakirs, or a School of yoga, the lack of freedom of speech might have had enough premises for the development of consciousness in its participants but in a Fourth Way System that is designed to ¨happen in life¨ the lack of ¨freedoms to live¨ were conducive to psychological concentration camps, even if no one was harmed or physically forced to be there. The emotional and intellectual dependence was enough for people to submit willingly against their well being and what a court of law must be able to look into is that what matters is the well being of the individuals that submit to no matter what institution, not their willingness to submit to deception.

It is the responsibility of the government to protect the well being of its citizens and if its citizens are being deceived into acting against their own well being, the well being of their families, other members of the community or humanity at large, it is the government’s responsibility to act against no matter what institution no matter how religious it claims to be.

Freedom of Speech is only one of the many constitutional rights that the Fellowship of Friends violated. This is already long, we can continue later.

154. Daily Cardiac - December 18, 2008

Elena – 121:

“People’s Civil Rights are there in the Constitution as strongly as people’s freedoms. Why would people’s Freedoms have a greater stand than people’s rights? Is there no case in the fact that Cults are not just religions but thought reform environments in which people, by the habit of custom are reduced to slavery? Is the difficulty in the fact that present laws do not conceive of psychological slavery which is what Cults reduce the members into?”

The answer to your question is actually embedded in the term you use – “People’s Civil Rights.” The onus is on people to protect their own “rights” first and foremost, and if they do not protect their own rights they generally forfeit the right to be compensated at a later date. You may not want to read this but this is the law.

If you spend 17 years in an organization it will be very problematic for you to claim slavery, as the length of time will constitute permission/approval. If you can produce evidence of actual slavery, people being forcibly held or made to do things against their will that is obviously a different matter.

The onus is on you to have recognized the FoF to be a “fraud” and then walk away, just like you would from a used car you were considering. If you buy the car without written guarantees or promises as to its soundness you have waived your rights in most cases to recoup anything, even if the seller knowingly sells you and unsound car.

If you spend 17 years in an organization it will be perceived by the government or courts that you were getting what you willingly paid for on a monthly basis.

First of all it is simply your belief/perception at this point, that the FoF is not delivering on what it claims to be offering. And 50 people on this blog in agreement with you does not change that fact. 114 or 1,114 signatures on a perition still does not change anything. Only due process will change that, and you have the right to spend your money trying to “prove” your claims.

And since your claims of abuse are entirely bound to a spiritual matter it will be next to impossible for you to climb that first hurtle. So far no one has successfully proved even the existence of a spirit world or soul in a court of law, so to make the claim that the FoF is not delivering on its purely spiritual claims will be extremely difficult.

But the main point for you or others here to keep in mind is the concept of protecting your rights before hand.

If a person pays to go on a long standing and popular amusement ride, like a state of the art roller coaster, and suffers long standing psychological problems as a result of it, in all likelihood they cannot receive compensation because they wiillingly paid for a ticket.

The onus is on the ride goer to understand it is a ride that goes really fast and really high and does 360 degree loops 200 feet in the air. If the equipment fails and results in an injury that is a different story.

People join schools knowing certain psychological risks apply. You will be “photographed”, shown unpleasant things about yourself. There will be exercises that are designed to inhibit one’s comfort. Many other conditions are stated or implied regarding tendencies or habits you may be asked to relinquish or curtail.

Here is a prime example of people waiving their “rights” when they join certain groups/organizations:

If someone joins the military they are sent to boot camp. In boot camp practically everyone will very soon experience this episode:

At three in the morning as you are in a dead sleep from marching all day long bright lights suddenly come on and a drill Sargent enters your barracks screaming at the top of his lungs, yelling “get up you MF, you momma’s boy!”

He will pull the blankets right off your body, while his assistant is beating on your metal bunk with a night stick a few inches from your ear.

But this is not a violation of your rights. Quite the contrar, it is exactly what you signed up for. You signed up to be put through experiences that bring about change in you. You placed your well being into the hands of individuals who claim to know the methods necessary to bring about the change you desire.

You do not have the right to erase the experience if it is not what you foresaw. You do have the right to say “this is not for me”, and in that case the military will pay your ticket back home.

In ordinary life if someone comes into your bedroom, turning on the lights and hollering “get up you MF”, you have every right to shoot them if you happen to have a gun handy. It’s the same apparent “abuse” but in one instance you have forfeited away your rights to prevent the occurrence from happening through your own permission.

In schools people voluntarily give permission to the teacher or other students to engage in, what in ordinary life would constitute, abusive behavior.

The bottom line is first and foremost you have to protect your own rights. If you voluntarily enter into an environment that prohibits/discourages those rights you relinquish the right to be compensated for your disapproval.

Among other things the FoF does not have a law in its charter that prohibits its founder from having a private life, including consensual homosexual sex with members. There is no charter that prohibits the FoF from allocating revenues from TP for the purpose of acquiring art/cultural objects.

I give you the benefit of the doubt that your beliefs are heartfelt and sincere although I do not know that for a fact. They are obviously real to you. But they have not been proven outside of yourself. If you can’t see that fact you will encounter a lot of heartache down the road when it is made apparent to you in some other arena. You obviously have concluded many things about the FoF and Robert Burton.

Pay heed to what the laws state about the crimes you indicate have been committed. Crimes must fit into certain criteria. If your version of a crime does not fit that criteria it will be to your benefit and well being if you adjust your thinking accordingly.

Belief does not constitute reality. They may or it may not coincide. You may have to accept that your beliefs, which may or may not contain some measure of truth, cannot be proven. And you may be required to live with that. The fate of the FoF may not be in your control. But what you do with the rest of your life is very much in your control. There are many victims in the real sense in your own country. You can easily place your prodigious energy into helping any number of individuals.
.

155. ton - December 18, 2008

on a more positive note…. this might be of interest to some….

(hey dc, expand your horizons…. the book even ‘talks’ about ‘presence’ and the verb ‘presencing.’).

http://www.theoryu.com/theoryu.html

156. ton - December 18, 2008

around 153 joker… er i mean daily card:

thanks again to the shill dc for explaining why the crimes of ‘conscious bob’ and the fof continue to slip under the radar of criminal prosecution… for crimes that are all too obvious to common sense…

“And since your claims of abuse are entirely bound to a spiritual matter it will be next to impossible for you to climb that first hurtle.”

this is how conscious bob gets away with the scam in the legal realm…. but there is more to life than legalities…. in fact legality may be the least of it.

“So far no one has successfully proved even the existence of a spirit world or soul in a court of law, so to make the claim that the FoF is not delivering on its purely spiritual claims will be extremely difficult.”

this is what keeps the fof out of court.

“You will be “photographed”, shown unpleasant things about yourself. There will be exercises that are designed to inhibit one’s comfort. Many other conditions are stated or implied regarding tendencies or habits you may be asked to relinquish or curtail.”

beware… you will pay dearly for this form of unpleasant abuse… in plain parlance it’s called behavior modification / brainwashing.

“You placed your well being into the hands of individuals who claim to know the methods necessary to bring about the change you desire.”

and why do you dc, place your well-being into the hands of someone who makes dubious claims based on what you’ve acknowledged above to be a dubious ‘spirit world or soul’ ??

“You do not have the right to erase the experience if it is not what you foresaw. You do have the right to say ‘this is not for me’”

and you have the dc, right to believe in your little cult… but that doesn’t make it right.

“In ordinary life if someone comes into your bedroom, turning on the lights and hollering “get up you MF”, you have every right to shoot them if you happen to have a gun handy. It’s the same apparent “abuse” but in one instance you have forfeited away your rights to prevent the occurrence from happening through your own permission.”

because of immersion in the cult a brainwashed ‘member’ cannot recognize the difference between “permission” and deception/pschoemotional coercion.

“In schools people voluntarily give permission to the teacher or other students to engage in, what in ordinary life would constitute, abusive behavior.”

thanks again for admitting to the abusive behavior of the fof.

“The bottom line is first and foremost you have to protect your own rights. If you voluntarily enter into an environment that prohibits/discourages those rights you relinquish the right to be compensated for your disapproval.”

once again, the brainwashed cannot recognize the difference between “permission” and deception.

“Among other things the FoF does not have a law in its charter that prohibits its founder from having a private life, including consensual homosexual sex with members.”

of course not dear, the fof is set up to PROTECT AND SUPPORT the depraved sex life of its founder.

“I give you the benefit of the doubt that your beliefs are heartfelt and sincere although I do not know that for a fact. They are obviously real to you. But they have not been proven outside of yourself.”

always returning to this notion of ‘proof.’ for someone who claims otherwise, the shill is obsessed with this notion of ‘proof.’

now if dc could just ‘be the words’ here then he would make some progress:

“Belief does not constitute reality. They may or it may not coincide. You may have to accept that your beliefs, which may or may not contain some measure of truth, cannot be proven.”

again with the fixation on some notion of ‘proof.’

dc, here in your own words… words to live by:

“The fate of the FoF may not be in your control. But what you do with the rest of your life is very much in your control.”

escape while you can… there may even be a kind soul or two here to help you out.

157. ton - December 18, 2008

and to all… please excuse the numerous typos…. i’m just returning from the spirit world.

158. veramente - December 18, 2008

144. The FOFion –
Irate Student Hurls Shoes at Burton
——————-
funny, I had this imagination that Robert Burton would get a flying shoe over his head.
Think about it, that “student” would become my hero!

159. Daily Cardiac - December 18, 2008

ton – 155:

“always returning to this notion of ‘proof.’ for someone who claims otherwise, the shill is obsessed with this notion of ‘proof.’”

The enactment of all laws, civil, moral, spiritual is based on proof. I continue to mention it because you continue to ignore it.

160. Ellen - December 18, 2008

144#, Hilarious! Thanks! Better than a cup o’ java to start my day…

161. harryhindsight - December 18, 2008

Daily BigMac,

Well, there’s certainly been a changing of the shills.

“Among other things the FoF does not have a law in its charter that prohibits its founder from having a private life, including consensual homosexual sex with members.”

What does it say about non-consensual sex BigMac ?

162. Bares Reposting - December 18, 2008

‘144. The FOFion – December 18, 2008

Irate Student Hurls Shoes at Burton’

My god, now REB has FoF members throwing their soles at him! Sucking their souls out through their male sex organ, like a Succubus*, was not enough.

* read more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus

163. Bares Reposting - December 18, 2008

813 Bares Reposting
on 18 Oct 2007 at 9:36 am

Robert Earl Burton is not a human being. That does not mean that he is an angel. Far from it. More like a. . . succubus.* Well known is his penchant for seducing his unsuspecting victim while they are in first state [sleeping] so that they present little resistance. Then he sucks their verdure out.

*What’s a succubus look like, you say?:

164. Bares Reposting - December 18, 2008

814 Bares Reposting
on 18 Oct 2007 at 9:44 am

Hell hath no fury like a succubus scorned:
http://www.jackiekessler.com/books/rthtrailer.html

165. harryhindsight - December 18, 2008

Daily Cardigan,

in schools people voluntarily give permission to the teacher or other students to engage in, what in ordinary life would constitute, abusive behavior.

You’re twisted inside D.C.

166. Bares Reposting - December 18, 2008

816 Bares Reposting
on 18 Oct 2007 at 9:55 am

What’s a succubus look like, you say?:

167. Bares Reposting - December 18, 2008

Sorry, that might have been a bad link. Try this one:

What’s a succubus look like, you say?:

168. Draco - December 18, 2008

DC/13,
“My analogy silly?

If you pay for a cheeseburger you have no right to demand a Big Mac. If you pay a school for the right to develop a soul and you don’t follow their dictates you have no right to expect positive results.”

Or you order a burger, it doesn’t arrive after hald an hour and you get asked to pay more upgrade it to a cheeseburger, which doesn’t arrive, so then you have to pay to upgrade it to a Big Mac, then a Big Mac and fries, none of which arrive, and then you notice that some guys are getting served; OK, they’re only getting Coke, not burgers, but you wonder why they’re getting served at all, and it’s because they’re having their dicks sucked by the manager. At this point you leave the restaurant. Only later does it occur to you to sue them and then you realize that they never gave you a receipt.

But the original point was “So, if someone pulls a gun on me and is seen/identified/caught he/she will be prosecuted.

But if I say “So and so told me if I give him this he will give me that. Well I gave him this but he didn’t give me that.”

Governments know the plaintiff is just as likely to be lying as the defendant. The government was not in the room when the deal was made so to them the accusations do not constitute proof.”

The testimony of the plaintiff is part of the evidence. Oral contracts are valid in many areas of law. This is all somewhat at a tangent (and I personally wouldn’t be interested in suing the Fellowship of Friends for a refund) but it illustrates your technique on this blog. You throw out lots of authoritative-sounding broad statements in defence of the FOF, but on examination most of them are untrue factually or logically.

And I don’t believe that you are sincere in this at all. You don’t care what you say, what the implications of your arguments are, as long as it defends the Fellowship. And before you try to turn that round and say,, “So what? Ex-students don’t care what they say either”, it’s not the case. What we are saying about the Fellowship is based on our experiences. And we do disagree with each other, to get that canard out of the way too.

169. golb - December 18, 2008

#144 #149

Fresh true sane news as always in this really actual place!

170. dragon - December 18, 2008

“If you spend 17 years in an organization it will be perceived by the government or courts that you were getting what you willingly paid for on a monthly basis.” DC

Dearest DC,
You are so heart-rending!

Do you really think all judges and the whole jurisdiction will think and act from your (= FOF) point of view?

Dearest walking disaster, ELENA is an important witness and the essential part is simply:

ELENA is willing to testify in court! Whatever happens, will happen!
Elena is not claiming to be the 44! I think that is very solid for the jurisdiction!

I know it is hard for you but you don’t know everything what is going on,

YOUR MASK is the TEACHER!

But you are not willing to go into the depths, not yet.

171. Draco - December 18, 2008

DC/153
“If a person pays to go on a long standing and popular amusement ride, like a state of the art roller coaster, and suffers long standing psychological problems as a result of it, in all likelihood they cannot receive compensation because they wiillingly paid for a ticket.

The onus is on the ride goer to understand it is a ride that goes really fast and really high and does 360 degree loops 200 feet in the air. If the equipment fails and results in an injury that is a different story.”

Again, it’s a silly analogy. Some states due allow a plaintiff to sue for emotional distress alone. But if 80% (roughly the percentage of ex-members relative to the total number of FOF members in the organization’s lifetime) claimed emotional distress, then there would indeed be something wrong with the ride.

Yes, it does take two to tango (seeker and guru). What was it in me that kept me in the Fellowship for so long? And what was it about the way that the Fellowship works that kept me in? Robert has spent decades teaching people to blame themselves (or “life” or ex-members) instead of him or *instead of sharing the onus or responsibility. Daily Cardiac is continuing the tradition on this blog.

172. Crouching Tiger - December 18, 2008

Bearing in mind we are talkin about attracting “mature magnetic centres” to the fellowship now, and the new advertising push, I think the following points should be included on the front page. They are indisputable facts:

1. The organisation should be called “Robert Burton’s Fellowship of Friends” so that people can do their research before they consider entering.

2. The use of sex as a ‘teaching tool’ by the teacher, and his large sexual appetite for young heterosexual males.

3. The reality that you will be expected to hand over 20-30% of your income in various donations.

4. The absence of any direct link to Gurdjieff or the 4th Way.

Even DC cannot argue against any of these facts! They are all neutral rather than accusatory. It’s simply full and honest disclosure. Now, if someone joins while in full possession of these facts, you can be sure they really will have a ‘mature magnetic centre’!

173. fofblogmoderator - December 18, 2008

169 is newly moderated

174. elena - December 18, 2008

154. Daily Cardiac – December 18, 2008
Elena – 121:

“People’s Civil Rights are there in the Constitution as strongly as people’s freedoms. Why would people’s Freedoms have a greater stand than people’s rights? Is there no case in the fact that Cults are not just religions but thought reform environments in which people, by the habit of custom are reduced to slavery? Is the difficulty in the fact that present laws do not conceive of psychological slavery which is what Cults reduce the members into?”

DC: The answer to your question is actually embedded in the term you use – “People’s Civil Rights.” The onus is on people to protect their own “rights” first and foremost, and if they do not protect their own rights they generally forfeit the right to be compensated at a later date. You may not want to read this but this is the law.

———–So what is the purpose of governments? Lawyers and laws?

DC: If you spend 17 years in an organization it will be very problematic for you to claim slavery, as the length of time will constitute permission/approval. If you can produce evidence of actual slavery, people being forcibly held or made to do things against their will that is obviously a different matter.

______That is not difficult to prove about Thought Reform Environments and the Fellowship is one par excellence!

DC:The onus is on you to have recognized the FoF to be a “fraud” and then walk away, just like you would from a used car you were considering. If you buy the car without written guarantees or promises as to its soundness you have waived your rights in most cases to recoup anything, even if the seller knowingly sells you and unsound car.

———–So what is the purpose of governments? Lawyers and laws?

DC: If you spend 17 years in an organization it will be perceived by the government or courts that you were getting what you willingly paid for on a monthly basis.

______That is not difficult to prove about Thought Reform Environments and the Fellowship is one par excellence!

DC: First of all it is simply your belief/perception at this point, that the FoF is not delivering on what it claims to be offering. And 50 people on this blog in agreement with you does not change that fact. 114 or 1,114 signatures on a perition still does not change anything. Only due process will change that, and you have the right to spend your money trying to “prove” your claims.

_______We’ll see about that dear, we’ll see…

DC: And since your claims of abuse are entirely bound to a spiritual matter it will be next to impossible for you to climb that first hurtle.

_____That is not true. The claims are on very provable matters in all sphere of life. Economic, emotional, intellectual and physical for the Fellowship even damages one physically by suggesting to people they do not do exercise.

DC: So far no one has successfully proved even the existence of a spirit world or soul in a court of law, so to make the claim that the FoF is not delivering on its purely spiritual claims will be extremely difficult.

_______ That is false: The Fellowship presented itself as a Gurdjieff and Ouspensky Center, a Fourth Way School. All I need is a bookmark to show that it is a fraud.

DC: But the main point for you or others here to keep in mind is the concept of protecting your rights before hand.

______We would not have governments, laws or lawyers if what you say were true.

DC: If a person pays to go on a long standing and popular amusement ride, like a state of the art roller coaster, and suffers long standing psychological problems as a result of it, in all likelihood they cannot receive compensation because they wiillingly paid for a ticket.
The onus is on the ride goer to understand it is a ride that goes really fast and really high and does 360 degree loops 200 feet in the air. If the equipment fails and results in an injury that is a different story.

______Wonderful you pimp! If the Fellowship had said it was an amusement ride in a brothel I would not be sueing it.

DC: People join schools knowing certain psychological risks apply. You will be “photographed”, shown unpleasant things about yourself. There will be exercises that are designed to inhibit one’s comfort. Many other conditions are stated or implied regarding tendencies or habits you may be asked to relinquish or curtail.

_________You fail again sicko, I was never photographed in the Fellowship, no one ever worked with me, I was simply made to submit to the Fellowship status quo, was emotionally and economically taken advantage of because of my willingness to trust what the Fellowship presented itself as: A fourth Way School in the Gurdjieff, Ouspensky tradition.

DC:Here is a prime example of people waiving their “rights” when they join certain groups/organizations:

If someone joins the military they are sent to boot camp. In boot camp practically everyone will very soon experience this episode:

At three in the morning as you are in a dead sleep from marching all day long bright lights suddenly come on and a drill Sargent enters your barracks screaming at the top of his lungs, yelling “get up you MF, you momma’s boy!
He will pull the blankets right off your body, while his assistant is beating on your metal bunk with a night stick a few inches from your ear.

But this is not a violation of your rights. Quite the contrar, it is exactly what you signed up for. You signed up to be put through experiences that bring about change in you. You placed your well being into the hands of individuals who claim to know the methods necessary to bring about the change you desire.

You do not have the right to erase the experience if it is not what you foresaw. You do have the right to say “this is not for me”, and in that case the military will pay your ticket back home.”

_______ The military is a compulsory institution and the fact that men are mistreated in it does not justify the abuse in Cults.

DC: In ordinary life if someone comes into your bedroom, turning on the lights and hollering “get up you MF”, you have every right to shoot them if you happen to have a gun handy. It’s the same apparent “abuse” but in one instance you have forfeited away your rights to prevent the occurrence from happening through your own permission.

In schools people voluntarily give permission to the teacher or other students to engage in, what in ordinary life would constitute, abusive behavior.

_________Wow, Daily Cardiac, you’ve never been more honest or creepier. I never ever signed anything stating that the I was willing to accept abusive behaviour from the Fellowship of Friends, you cannot prove that I was willing to accept it ever while I can prove that you abused and deceived us from day one.

DC: The bottom line is first and foremost you have to protect your own rights. If you voluntarily enter into an environment that prohibits/discourages those rights you relinquish the right to be compensated for your disapproval.

______We would not have governments, laws or lawyers if what you say were true.

DC: Among other things the FoF does not have a law in its charter that prohibits its founder from having a private life, including consensual homosexual sex with members. There is no charter that prohibits the FoF from allocating revenues from TP for the purpose of acquiring art/cultural objects.

_________The FOF is under the laws of a Church and that is laughable. It was never a Church and Robert Burton despised religion as much as anything else that questioned his lifestyle so religion was treated with the same rod of feminine dominance as morals and people’s integrity. Then when he had managed to bring so many members to blind idolatry, he and his enablers, returned to a religious stand only in relation to his own status as a divine being. That too will be easy to prove in a Court of Law.

DC: I give you the benefit of the doubt that your beliefs are heartfelt and sincere although I do not know that for a fact. They are obviously real to you. But they have not been proven outside of yourself. If you can’t see that fact you will encounter a lot of heartache down the road when it is made apparent to you in some other arena. You obviously have concluded many things about the FoF and Robert Burton.

Pay heed to what the laws state about the crimes you indicate have been committed. Crimes must fit into certain criteria. If your version of a crime does not fit that criteria it will be to your benefit and well being if you adjust your thinking accordingly.

Belief does not constitute reality.

They may or it may not coincide. You may have to accept that your beliefs, which may or may not contain some measure of truth, cannot be proven. And you may be required to live with that. The fate of the FoF may not be in your control. But what you do with the rest of your life is very much in your control. There are many victims in the real sense in your own country. You can easily place your prodigious energy into helping any number of individuals.

__________Go preach those same things to yourself you sick pimp and liar, you do not frighten me nor am I willing to take your patronizing. We will destroy the institutions like yours and have you people put in jail and in the asylums you belong. I hope you live to experience it.

175. Jomo Piñata - December 18, 2008

Elena,

Does the Fellowship not violate the right to freedom of speech?

What right to freedom of speech? Who told you you had the right to freedom of speech?

176. Jomo Piñata - December 18, 2008

Really, I’m not kidding.

The First Amendment to the Constitution doesn’t guarantee you freedom of speech.

It just guarantees, nowadays, that the Government can’t pass a law saying that you can be put in jail for criticizing the Government.

If your private employer doesn’t like what you say, in most places he can fire you.

If your church doesn’t like what you say, it can have you excommunicated.

177. Jomo Piñata - December 18, 2008

Your Constitutional right to freedom of speech is that you have the right not to be punished BY GOVERNMENT for expressing opinions.

If you are punished BY GOVERNMENT for advocating ideas or expressing opinions, THAT violates your Constitutional rights.

If your church forbids you to speak at all, that does not violate your Constitutional rights.

178. Miguel - December 18, 2008

Hey Cardiac, who are you? When did yoy join the fof? you seems clever, but very naive

179. loserbaby900 - December 18, 2008

152 ton

“Most seekers who have a mature magnetic center have already begun the process of discarding many of life’s values. Ordinary life has proved to be a dead end. They are truly seeking a way off the wheel of life and the accompanying psychology of life.”

This is attributed to Gurdjieef. It certainly explains why so many losers and morally dubious individuals are drawn to the fourth way and the fellowship. It’s like Rudolph the red Nosed Reindeer’s home for broken toys.

Phillip Pullman, author of the “Golden Compass,” said “Christianity is a powerful and convincing mistake.” The same could be said about the fourth way.

180. Crouching Tiger - December 18, 2008

Loserbaby.

You have a very bitter attitude to the 4th Way. What was the experience that caused it?

181. Mick Danger - December 18, 2008

To avoid legal controversy and moral downfall, one should only express T-Shirt Truisms like: “Bobby Burton Sucks” or “Rocks fall downhill” or “Like Stink on Shit”. But if you’re going to say things like that God gave us the 2nd Amendment to defend ourselves.

182. elena - December 18, 2008

Thank you Jomo for bothering to answer and being patient with me.
175. Jomo Piñata – December 18, 2008
Elena,

Does the Fellowship not violate the right to freedom of speech?

What right to freedom of speech? Who told you you had the right to freedom of speech?

Citizenship:
Citizenship is the attribute of persons who, as members of the polity, have certain privileges and duties in addition to those they have as persons. Citizens include those born on U.S. or State territory or naturalized according to law.
Natural Rights:
The classic definition of “natural rights” are “life, liberty, and property”, but these need to be expanded somewhat. They are rights of “personhood”, not “citizenship”. These rights are not all equally basic, but form a hierarchy of derivation, with those listed later being generally derived from those listed earlier.
Personal Security (Life):
(1) Not to be killed.
(2) Not to be injured or abused.
Personal Liberty:
(3) To move freely.
(4) To assemble peaceably.
(5) To keep and bear arms.[18]
(6) To assemble in an independent well-disciplined[13] militia.
(7) To communicate with the world.
(8) To express or publish one’s opinions or those of others.-
(9) To practice one’s religion.
(10) To be secure in one’s person, house, papers, vehicle[14], and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures.
(11) To enjoy privacy in all matters in which the rights of others are not violated.[7]

One of the points I am trying to make is that it is absurd that the government cannot violate basic human rights while a Cult or other institutions are supposed to be able to. While this may be true presently, it does not mean that it should remain such and we need a basis on which to stand against it.

176. Jomo Piñata – December 18, 2008
Really, I’m not kidding.

The First Amendment to the Constitution doesn’t guarantee you freedom of speech.

It just guarantees, nowadays, that the Government can’t pass a law saying that you can be put in jail for criticizing the Government.

If your private employer doesn’t like what you say, in most places he can fire you.

If your church doesn’t like what you say, it can have you excommunicated.

You’re right Jomo, this is what is happening today and it is why Cults can develop so freely but it doesn’t mean they are not acting against the employees and the members well being so it must change and the more people understand why it must change, the sooner it will change.

Nothing is fixed in this world and we are here to change what acts against our well being or that of future generations.

177. Jomo Piñata – December 18, 2008
Your Constitutional right to freedom of speech is that you have the right not to be punished BY GOVERNMENT for expressing opinions.

If you are punished BY GOVERNMENT for advocating ideas or expressing opinions, THAT violates your Constitutional rights.

If your church forbids you to speak at all, that does not violate your Constitutional rights.

Thank you again Jomo, this is precisely what is being questioned. Can anyone under no matter what set up violate other people’s natural rights when the government cannot? What makes a private employer or a Cult so “divine” that it does not have to respond for acts that even the government has to respond for?

If a government cannot throw you out of the country for expressing yourself against it, what allows a church to throw you out of the congregation if you express yourself against it?

Can we take the facts into account? Can it be made clear that the Fellowship of Friends is not just a Church but has very particular conditions in which it demanded of the members to make a lifetime commitment and therefore it made of itself not only a School but a Community and as a Community it must respond for the well being of its members or be held responsible for its damages to their well being?

We are talking about a Church that separated its members from their family, friends and humanity at large making them thoroughly dependent on itself particularly in Oregon House. Some members are more affected than others but those who were most willing to follow its instructions to live at Renaissance and help build it, are the most affected.

The importance of Freedom of Speech
(7) To communicate with the world.
(8) To express or publish one’s opinions or those of others.-
(9) To practice one’s religion.

Is that it is in the lack of freedom to express one’s self that members are more quickly and effectively submitted to Thought Reform Environments. It is in the fact that Cults are able to rip the members off their Constitutional Natural Rights what places the members in a condition vulnerable enough to keep them working for the Cult for a lifetime.

What we need to understand is that in the personal arena, the lack of expression of one’s self acts against one’s integrity so violently that it psychologically dis-empowers one as a member of no matter what community. Cults cannot have more power than the Government and not be made responsible for the damages they cause to people. Cults are essentially anti-social institutions acting against the well being of the people.

In the social arena, the lack of self-expression and equal participation of the members leads to totalitarian structures.

Teachers or spiritual leaders are given the trust of the members for as long as they do not harm the members but when a spiritual leader proves to be harmful for the members he or she must be held responsible.

Freedom of Speech is an aspect of a human beings integrity. Any institution that violates the freedom of expression is acting against the human integrity of its members. We might live in a time in which this is still a common occurrence but realizing why it is just another aspect of the Status Quo that needs to be changed is the responsibility of every generation that understands the problem.

Another problem with the Fellowship is that it presented itself as a Fourth Way School and deceived its members to such an extent that we ended up acting against life, ourselves and the people around us. It did not allow us to practice the religion or set of beliefs that we were paying for and had signed up to. It fraudulently presented itself as one thing and subsequently practiced something so totally different that it defaced us spiritually and psychologically. It must be held responsible and stopped like any other Cult practicing the same abuse on people’s integrity.

I appreciate your time and willingness to explore these issues.

183. Jomo Piñata - December 18, 2008

Elena, you have copied some text talking about natural rights and rights of personhood or human rights. You don’t say what the source is. The source is not the United States Constitution.

What I’m saying is, you may feel the Fellowship violated your natural rights or your rights of personhood, but natural rights, rights of personhood, and human rights are not the same thing as Constitutional rights.

If you feel your natural rights were violated, call them natural rights. Don’t call them Constitutional rights. And don’t look to Governmental entities in the United States to redress the violation of natural rights.

184. Jomo Piñata - December 18, 2008

Elena, I found the following discussion worth reading:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-rights.htm

185. elena - December 18, 2008

Jomo Piñata, I think these are Constitutional Rights, this is where I took them from the internet. Another lawyer told me they are hardly even studied anymore by lawyers but they are there.

Summary of
Constitutional Rights, Powers and Duties
Discussions of rights are sometimes confused concerning what are and are not rights of the people or powers of government or the duties of each. This is an attempt to summarize the rights, powers, and duties recognized or established in the U.S. Constitution, in Common Law as it existed at the time the U.S. Constitution was adopted, or as implied therein. Not included are certain “internal” rights and powers that pertain to the various elements of government within each level with respect to each other.
Personhood:[1]
“Persons” are one of the two main classes which are the subject of rights, powers, and duties, the other being “citizens”. Persons may be “natural” or “corporate”. “Citizens” are a subclass of “natural persons”. Only persons have standing as parties under due process. Each government has the power to define what is and is not a “person” within its jurisdiction, subject to certain restrictions of Common Law and the Constitution, the 15th Amendment to which requires that it not exclude anyone based on race, color, or previous condition of servitude. Under Common Law existing at the time of the adoption of the U.S. Constitution, “natural personhood” was considered to begin at natural birth and end with the cessation of the heartbeat. But technology has created a new situation, opening the way for statute or court decision to extend this definition and set the conditions under which personhood begins and ends.
Each government may also establish, within its jurisdiction, “corporate persons” such as governmental entities, associations, corporations, or partnerships, in addition to the Common Law “natural” persons, but the “personhood” of such corporate entities is not created by the government. Its corporate personhood derives from the personhood of its members. Corporate persons must be aggregates of natural persons.
Under Common Law, natural persons include only human beings, but provides a basis for inclusion of entities that are sufficiently like human beings in their behavior to be indistinguishable for legal purposes, such as aliens, androids, or genetically enhanced animals, which have interests, an ability to reason, and an ability to communicate. This would exclude, however, establishment of other things as persons, such as inanimate objects, which have no ability to represent themselves under due process. Inclusion of such inanimate objects as parties to civil due process, in effect making them “persons”, has found its way into the U.S. legal system, unconstitutionally, through recent seizure/forfeiture statutes.
Although not a well-developed area, there is also a basis for excluding entities which, although they are born to human beings, lack attributes which would enable them to be functionally human, such as some minimal level of cognitive capacity, but such beings must be considered natural persons as the default unless proven otherwise through due process.
Citizenship:
Citizenship is the attribute of persons who, as members of the polity, have certain privileges and duties in addition to those they have as persons. Citizens include those born on U.S. or State territory or naturalized according to law.
Natural Rights:
The classic definition of “natural rights” are “life, liberty, and property”, but these need to be expanded somewhat. They are rights of “personhood”, not “citizenship”. These rights are not all equally basic, but form a hierarchy of derivation, with those listed later being generally derived from those listed earlier.
Personal Security (Life):
(1) Not to be killed.
(2) Not to be injured or abused.
Personal Liberty:
(3) To move freely.
(4) To assemble peaceably.
(5) To keep and bear arms.[18]
(6) To assemble in an independent well-disciplined[13] militia.
(7) To communicate with the world.
(8) To express or publish one’s opinions or those of others.-
(9) To practice one’s religion.
(10) To be secure in one’s person, house, papers, vehicle[14], and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures.
(11) To enjoy privacy in all matters in which the rights of others are not violated.[7]

186. elena - December 18, 2008

I’ll read the text and get back to you as soon as I’ve the time. Thank you again.

187. dragon - December 18, 2008

184. Jomo

Thank you fort that link!

Myth: Scientists lack common sense…

Fact: A scientist’s job is studying how the real world works.

188. dragon - December 18, 2008

Home: PATHWAYTOPRESENCE

“For now we see through a glass darkly: but then face to face.” Corinthians

The quest to realize one’s higher possibilities through the practice of presence is as old as humanity.

It is the aim of all esoteric teachings. “Pathway to Presence” is created by the Fellowship of Friends, an esoteric school which has its roots in the Fourth Way tradition, and utilizes the esoteric knowledge of many different cultures, religions and teachings.
Our emphasis is on working with practical methods to increase presence.

This site was created with the understanding that the possibilities of the written word are limited.

Esoteric teachings need to be experienced.

To understand the essence of a teaching, personal contact is needed.”

1.) Crouching Tiger, please could you explain: Why has the FOF NO ROOTS in THE FORTH WAY TRADITION, I think it is important to record the fact or to explain the difference.
2.) Are in OTHER FORTH WAY SCHOOLS apart from a personal contact, DONATIONS and 10% minimum of the students income mandatory?

189. Crouching Tiger - December 18, 2008

Dragon.

The facts can be summarised as follows:

1. Robert Burton’s teacher, Alex Horn, was never part of a Gurdjieff teaching group with a connection to any of Gurdjieff’s actual, living students.

2. Robert Burton has no link to any known student of Gurdjieff’s, either directly or indirectly.

3. Although the fellowship uses 4th Way language, it lacks key teaching tools such as the Movements which are essential to it. It also misunderstands the aim of Gurdjieff’s teaching in many other important respects, particularly in its attitude to the body. From my own experience of both environments, I would describe the fellowship as a dangerous ‘upside-down’ version of the 4th Way.

4. The current cost of being a student in a Gurdjieff group is about £10-£15 per month. That includes the cost of running groups and Movement classes and maintaining buildings. There are no ‘special donations’ or extra costs for teaching events.

Hope that helps!

190. 'I see' said the blind man - December 18, 2008

When our friend Bobby ” The One” Burton hacks into the matrix, the jack goes into the front of his head, not the back.

191. No Quiet Zone - December 18, 2008

About having “roots” in the fourth way, I’ve never been concerned about this a whole lot. The issue for me is that Burton CLAIMS that he has a direct connection to G. and O., which is a blatant lie according to many. Burton’s connection G. and O. may be about the same type of connection that I have to Barack Obama — I know someone who knows someone who once shook his hand:

http://www.esotericfreedom.com/Lineage.html

“I first met Robert Burton at Red Mountain Ranch in Sonoma County, 48 miles north of the Golden Gate Bridge in California in 1969.

“He was a ‘tennis bum’ at the time and when he saw how much money Alexander Francis Horn was racking in from gullible people who knew their lives were crap, he became a ‘work bum’.

“And he was very successful until some of his male students started
questioning getting anal sex as spiritual enlightenment. There were many stories in major newspapers about him molesting the young boys of his students.

“Alex Horn used to have him beaten up regularly as Alex was very
homophobic. Of course most of what Alex called his students got beaten up regularly.

“There is another “work” website claiming that Lord Pentland and John Bennett were Alex Horns teachers, allowing Burton People to claim a legitimate connection to the ‘fourth-way’ for Burton. It is true that in the late 50’s Alex did attend an open meeting with Lord Pentland, and he actually shook John Bennett’s hand in England…”

******************
Elena, Joma, regarding freedom of speech…

It’s well documented among former and current followers of Robert Burton that he doesn’t take kindly to people within the group expressing any sort of criticism, expressing any doubts about his “teaching,” or openly questioning the wisdom of large donations that pay for his fun and games, or questioning anything about the cult.

I don’t know about the legalities of that. But the thing that has concerned me is the inherent lie in it — the hypocrisy. An organization seeking awareness and supposedly trying to promote awareness does not try to hide or obscure information about itself. Or send PR goons onto a blog to obfuscate. That’s basic.

192. Crouching Tiger - December 18, 2008

Dragon.

The other important point is that the basic aim of Gurdjieff teaching is to help produce ‘normal’ people…. People in whom the mind, feelings, body and sex work normally – that is, with their own energy. Balanced people. It doesn’t encourage – in fact it can’t encourage – abnormal developments in one or other of the centres, as I believe the fellowship does…

NQZ.

Yes, I also heard that Alex Horn tried to hang around on the fringe of one of Bennett’s groups for a while. Apparently Bennett was suspicious, confronted him eventually and told him not to come back. Horn obviously felt he’d learned enough to start the ‘Theatre of All Possibilities’ that RB attended for a short time….

193. loserbaby900 - December 18, 2008

Crouching Tiger

I am not particularly bitter about the fourth way, but now that I am out from under its spell, I can see pretty clearly that it presents an imaginary picture of life and the world that is easily exploited by a guru seeking to create a cult.

The System is ripe to exploit vulnerable people who are willing and even eager to believe that their own observations and experiences cannot be trusted, but those of other people have some inherent superiority. Particularly people who have been traumatized or at least disappointed, who want to believe there is meaning to their suffering, that evil can be explained (sleep) and that the parts of themselves that they are ashamed of are not real and/or can be defeated and eliminated. The system offers the relief of religious certainty, with a convenient label for every mystery and a plausible sounding plan for this life, the next and for all eternity. It is all nonsense of course, but it is a comfort to those who cannot stand the reality of the situation: that life is an unknown. Much more comfortable to think we can defeat the evil lower self or false personality and blame it for all our embarrassing faults. To be special, one of the chosen few out of the billions who might awaken. Also very comfortable to put our faith in authority figures like Gurdjieff who are so confident, ready to act with aplomb in any circumstance, to be the big fish in the small pool. Vanity, vanity.

The system also lets you off the hook regarding being a responsible citizen who is active in trying to make the world a better place (mechanical goodness). At the same time it creates a new religious type of guilt and fear — guilt about not making efforts, fear of mechanicality, not having a soul, not acting in a way that makes c influence proud.

If you find the fourth way enjoyable, I cannot stop you. But I think it is a mammoth waste of time and energy that leads nowhere. The people I encountered in the fourth way who seemed to make the most progress did so when they stopped believing in it, stopped making the imaginary efforts. They went from being neurotic, superstitious and self absorbed to acting normal again, which seemed very much like an improvement. Religious zealots tend to act like fools, and adherents of the fourth way are no exception.

As for the fellowship today, it is lower than even that. It is rolling downhill fast, so if you have not already, bail out while you can before the kool aid gets passed around.

194. jack - December 18, 2008

Truth is stranger than fiction!
One of the petitions signers lives on Gay Head street.
jx

195. Crouching Tiger - December 18, 2008

Loserbaby.

Well, this may very well be true of experience in the fellowship, but it doesn’t extend to other more genuine versions of the 4th Way. But it sounds from what you say, and the way you say it, that the fellowship is the only version you know…. I feel you would need to experience another version in order to make a true comparison – at present it appears you are still bearing the fellowship thumbprint…

196. Opus 111 - December 18, 2008

DC

The enactment of all laws, civil, moral, spiritual is based on proof. I continue to mention it because you continue to ignore it.

I would be curious to know what you mean by enactment of spiritual law in FOF, and what are the proofs to support it.

If you are talking about the fabled C-Influence according to Burton, the proofs may be lacking.

According to Burton, the sequence is yet another gift from C-Influence, indeed a very special, unique, yet universal gift that the Gods have bestowed upon their chosen ones, the FOF for the accelerated evolution of its precious remaining members. According to Burton, who will tell you he gets his information directly from C-Influence, you can find traces of this incredible tool of awakening throughout illustrated history, all the way back to prehistory and the cave men.

Is this the same C-Influence that told him he would awaken in 1976 (impossible to prove/disprove), that 1984 would be the year for a great depression (nope), that 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2004 would see California fall in the ocean (nope again), that 2006 would see hydrogen warfare and humanity being expunged for its sins (nada)?

Is this the same C-Influence that tells him that FOF must stop listening to Christian music, only invite russian artists, etc…?

Is this the same C-Influence that told him that certain pregnancies, but not others were ill-timed and needed to be terminated?

Is this the same C-Influence that tells him to have sex with this young lad, and that one, that one, no not that one but dozen of others?

Obviously, one could go on and on, the man is very inspired when it comes to C-Influence.

Is this what you call enactment of spiritual law? Proofs? Were do you find them?

How about principles? You said that payment was a principle for evolution. You also acknowledged that Burton often stipulates to his sex partners in the fire of the moment, that having sex with him is good for the disciple’s spiritual evolution. How about getting paid by your “teacher” to have sex with him? Is this some kind of “reverse payment” principle, or is this the enactment of a new spiritual law? (Brother Jomo seems quite versed in con-stitutional law, perhaps Burton’s specialty is pro-stitutional law.)

197. Daily Cardiac - December 18, 2008

DIRECT LINKS

Paul who essentially took over for Christ never met him. Christ was dead before Paul became a Christian. He was able to take command of Christ’s school because he understood Christ’s teaching better than anyone else.

Some of the greatest Muslim teachers were born centuries after Muhammad. It’s the same for disciples of Buddha. It’s extremely formatory to think that a direct link to Gurdjieff is incumbent upon a physical connection. We are talking about spiritual understanding.

It’s entirely possible for someone to read a teacher’s book and know him better than a disciple who spent years at his side.

198. Panorea - December 18, 2008

Iremember a male friend who was quite puzzled when he heard some first hand stories about Robert’s perversity. He did not know what to make of it. I was in denial about the whole issue. Did not want to talk with my friend about it. A few days later he came to me after a meeting. He said: “I understand why Robert does what he does. He needs to swallow sperm because it is such a fine substance and with the special energies it contains it supports Robert’s higher centers.”

We kept on kissing that ugly, green frog but we were wasting our sweet kisses. He is still a frog. He is only getting older.

199. lauralupa - December 18, 2008

Nice rants!
If music be the food of love, play on

those who have suffered, understand suffering,
and thereby extend their hand
the storm that brings harm
also makes fertile
blessed is the grass
and herb and the true thorn and light

Patti Smith

Namaste

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_s1CSagowoM&feature=related

200. Vena - December 18, 2008

I knew a personal friend of J.G. Bennett. He told me that Alex Horn was a “hanger-on” for a short time who had little to do with the teaching and no relationship to Bennett.

201. Draco - December 18, 2008

DC/197
“Paul who essentially took over for Christ never met him. Christ was dead before Paul became a Christian. He was able to take command of Christ’s school because he understood Christ’s teaching better than anyone else.”

There we are, the usual trawling of human history to find parallels that vaguely resemble Robert’s position to justify him.

You should have mentioned the cavemen. There was a caveman Gug who was a spiritual teacher. After he died, one of his pupils Jug taught a cavewoman Igg for a couple of months until Agg dragged her off, asked her what Jug had said and started teaching and beating up other cavemen. One of Agg’s pupils for a few months was bobb, who got beaten up, left and started his own school, making cave paintings to advertise it as the school of Gug and Oug. He formed a nice little harem and had plenty meat and shiny gems.

That’s a much better parallel to Robert than Paul, who, according to the accounts, went to meet other Christians immediately after his conversion, spent time with direct disciples of Jesus and spent his life traveling around churches founded by other disciples of Jesus.

Are you saying that Robert is merely a Paul to Gurdjieff’s Christ? Robert wouldn’t like that much as he’s always been jealous of Gurdjieff.

202. nigel harris price - December 19, 2008

199 lauralupa

I suddenly managed to ‘focus’ on the Patti Smith inclusion. Actually, the reason why I have not posted regualarly for about two weeks now is I had an appendectomy (painful, you bet!) on 3 December and am still recovering with an infected scar, for which I have had to take penecillin and painkillers. I think most of us who are ex-members ‘of long standing’ realize that we have had to go through a lengthy withdrawal and reconnection period with ourselves and others we may find ‘on the Path’ out of the FOF. Someone on the blog, some time ago, ‘photographed’ me for ‘shooting from the hip’ without thought and I realize now why that was. RAW EMOTIONAL ENERGY unfiltered through formatory constraints. I have absolutely no reason to lie, hide or persuade anyone about my posts. I have my beautiful work life with my metal-craft students (www.apma-uk.co.uk), a social life and my family (although my dear mother has passed on to the spirit realms). I sincerely want to contribute on the blog and remain neutral…..Nigel.

203. Another Name - December 19, 2008

197

O dear DC

Will you ever stop that mental blabbeling and start feeling?

Living from your verifications and you heart?

Daily Cardiac, your heart?

Here in the now?

O Daily Cardiac?

Is your first name starting with a T?

204. ton - December 19, 2008

another name,
re: daily card… part of the problem here is that there’s a ‘brain’ where there once was a heart…. this shill is bereft of any true feeling.

dc, what exactly do you think you are trying to ‘prove’ here? that you are ‘smarter’ and better than the nasty old ‘life’ people who are now anathema? you are not going to ‘prove’ anything to anyone who woke up to the fof scam and then had the courage to walk away. my take on your continued posts here is that you feel you need to ‘prove’ something to yourself through rationalization and attempts to ‘legitimize’ your affiliation with a corrupt and corrupting little cult. you and your cult-mates are not better than ‘life,’ you are not the ‘chosen few’ — that belief is part of the brainwash. whether you can admit it or not the fof is just a miniscule, festering, degenerate backwater in the great ocean of life…. i suggest to you that your involvement with this organization is part of the problem and offers no hope for solutions, not for the unfortunate individual members of your cult, nor for society at large… you sleep all too soundly.

205. elena - December 19, 2008

Jomo Piñata,

Thank you for your selection.
I’m very glad that those who wrote the Constitution had more vision than most of the men after them. The understanding that Freedom of Speech as some of the other natural rights, is necessary for the well being of an individual connects the science of Psychology or the well being of the individual to the Law, or the well being of a society. Laws after all are guidelines, like psychology or an approach to the individual’s well being or health. What is fascinating about the Constitution is that they clearly understood the dangers for both the society and the individual if these rights were taken from the people.

In our study of the Fellowship of Friends which is nothing but a psychological concentration camp where people don’t need to get killed because they sacrifice themselves willingly, we can see the rights that were taken away from the members and understand how they submitted to idolatry and fanatism.

I remember around the time I joined someone gave an angle at the town hall, about being armed enough and being willing to kill people if that were ever necessary when California fell. I was shocked but stupid enought to think it was the ignorance of the member expressing such position rather than it being the influence of the School. Expressions like that one were suppressed, in fact everything was suppressed. Only Robert talked and the others talked for Robert.

The study of these natural rights from the point of view of their psychological and social significance will allow us to connect the individual and society in a very deep way. The disconnectedness of these sciences in the world today is another aspect of the social schizofrenia that individuals are suffering.

Thank you for your willingness to explore this subject, we migh eventually find a way to put Cults out of The Way. I think we at least agree about their level of criminality and I much enjoy and respect that about you.

206. Susan Zannos - December 19, 2008

There’s a thread that occasionally shows up in the fabric of the blog that is interesting to me–but by the time I have a posting half-formulated the thread has disappeared again in the apparently inexhaustible conversation between a current student and former students about the merits of this and that aspect of the Fourth Way as propounded by Robert Burton.
At any rate, I am interested in learning more about what former students have come to understand about themselves that would explain why they were members of the Fellowship, sometimes for many long years. I am not referring to the wackadoodle idealism and naivite and gullibility. For me that was a very thin surface veneer disguising some basic deficiencies that I now am attempting to deal with, or at least to look at and try to understand.
It may well be that our experiences are so idiosyncratic that there is actually very little common ground shared. I suspect that when I try to read the blog and find very little that I can relate to. Doctrine of any stripe is of no interest. But I am interested in understanding the 30 years I spent avoiding taking responsibility for my actions. At first when I left, for about a year, I was so ashamed of having been in the Fellowship that I posted to the blog under an assumed name, Abigail, because I was unable to admit to my own thoughts and feelings. Then it occurred to me that this variety of cowardice was a continuation of certain of the character flaws that I was in the Fellowship to protect.
For example, Tatyana’s post about the difficulty Russians have with establishing boundaries was a revelation. Not only did it help greatly to explain experiences I had in Russia–how could one maintain boundaries while growing up in a communcal apartment?–but it also helped me see that I didn’t know where it was reasonable to set my own boundaries. For that reason all the interpersonal edicts imposed in the FoF were a great comfort. We were assured that taking as little space as possible was a virtue, and became ashamed of any assertion of our needs. And then became resentful because perfectly reasonable needs were not met.
If there are others who are willing to share observations about what they are learning as the recovery process gradually unwinds, I would appreciate hearing about their experiences.

207. Daily Cardiac - December 19, 2008

Elena – 1832:

“One of the points I am trying to make is that it is absurd that the government cannot violate basic human rights while a Cult or other institutions are supposed to be able to.”

The issue Elena is whether your basic human rights have been violated.

Feeling violated and having the violation correspond with the law are two different things. Another thing to keep in mind is that the Fellowship is protected under the same laws that protect you. You cannot take away from another the same privileges you hold dear.

I’m not a lawyer but it will be hard for you to mount a suit based on your discontent because a private spiritual/religious organization did not comply with your desires to dictate policy to them. The fact that the FoF has expanded to embrace other esoteric sources besides G & O does not equate to having your basic human rights violated.

I would suggest you contact Ford Green and get a consultation. Jack probably knows how to contact him. Then you will have a much better idea what avenues are open to you.

208. Yesri Baba - December 19, 2008

“It’s entirely possible for someone to read a teacher’s book and know him better than a disciple who spent years at his side.”

——

And it is entirely possible for that disciple who spent years at the teacher’s side to ignore, dismiss and act with hubris toward that someone who understood the truth.

209. Crouching Tiger - December 19, 2008

DC.

“It’s entirely possible for someone to read a teacher’s book and know him better than a disciple who spent years at his side.”

If you wanted to learn how to make persian carpets, would you…

A. Read ‘Teach yourself how to make persian carpets’.

B. Study under someone who had read ‘Teach yourself…’ but never completed a carpet of his own successfully.

C. Study under an expert carpet-maker who had made carpets successfully for many years.

Where would you find the best understanding? RB chose the shortcut, 1 & 2. None of those you mention, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha chose the shortcut, they chose 3. They participated fully in an orally-transmitted tradition, to the best of our knowledge.

You habitually emphasise the ‘magical’ aspect of spiritual understanding in your posts, to the cost of the fact that some of it is sheer bloody hard work. It is clear that RB chose not do that work in relation to the 4th Way, and there are obvious points at which he covers up the gaps in his understanding with homespun ‘magical’ thinking.

The bottom line is that he has never known how to understood, or teach the 4th Way tradition because he has never entered it, except superficially. He has always preferred to teach rather than learn, which gives you a clue as to his real motivations.

210. Kid Shelleen - December 19, 2008

Daily Cardiac wrote:

“DIRECT LINKS

Paul who essentially took over for Christ never met him. Christ was dead before Paul became a Christian. He was able to take command of Christ’s school because he understood Christ’s teaching better than anyone else.

Some of the greatest Muslim teachers were born centuries after Muhammad. It’s the same for disciples of Buddha. It’s extremely formatory to think that a direct link to Gurdjieff is incumbent upon a physical connection. We are talking about spiritual understanding.

It’s entirely possible for someone to read a teacher’s book and know him better than a disciple who spent years at his side.”

Power, politics, and fairy tales.

211. Jomo Piñata - December 19, 2008

Jomo Piñata, I think these are Constitutional Rights, this is where I took them from the internet. Another lawyer told me they are hardly even studied anymore by lawyers but they are there.

Again, Elena, you don’t say what the source is, you just provide a long quote with more of the same. The source you are quoting is not the United States Constitution. Instead, it’s someone characterizing the United States Constitution. There’s a big difference.

At the time the Constitution was written, its writers thought in terms of something called “Natural Law.” The link I provided has a discussion of what “natural law” means. The rights discussed by the writer you quoted, the rights you are calling “Constitutional rights,” are “natural rights” under “natural law.”

Natural law theory was abandoned in American courts generations ago. American courts do not enforce rights rooted in “natural law,” i.e., rights which inhere in nature or in human beings. American courts enforce rights rooted in “positive law” — enactments of governments. Don’t delude yourself that American courts will ever go back to “natural law.” Such a turn of events is about as likely as the prospect that American scientists will abandon current thinking about combustion and return to “phlogiston theory.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory

212. Mick Danger - December 19, 2008

You should know by now that “awakening” is an essentially individual process and no time has been wasted.

“Just Like Tom Thumb’s Blues” by Bob Dylan

When you’re lost in the rain in Juarez
And it’s Eastertime too
And your gravity fails
And negativity don’t pull you through
Don’t put on any airs
When you’r down on Rue Morgue Avenue
They got some hungry women there
And they really make a mess outa you

Now if you see Saint Annie
Please tell her thanks a lot
I cannot move
My fingers are all in a knot
I don’t have the strength
To get up and take another shot
And my best friend, my doctor
Won’t even say what it is I’ve got

Sweet Melinda
The peasants call her the goddess of gloom
She speaks good English
And she invites you up into her room
And you’re so kind
And careful not to go to her too soon
And she steals your voice
And leaves you howling at the moon

Up on Housing Project Hill
It’s either fortune or fame
You must pick up one or the other
Though neither of them are to be what they claim
If you’re looking to get silly
You better go back to from where you came
Because the cops don’t need you here
And man they expect the same

Now all the authorities
They just stand around and boast
How they blackmailed the sergeant-at-arms
Into getting up and leaving his post
And picking up Angel who
Just arrived down here from the coast
Who looked so fine at first
But left looking just like a ghost

(My favorite verse – the last)

I started out on burgundy
But soon hit the harder stuff
Everybody said they’d stand behind me
When the game got rough
But it was all a big joke
There was nobody even there to bluff
I’m going back to New York City
I do believe I’ve had enough”

213. veramente - December 19, 2008

207 DC
I’m not a lawyer but it will be hard for you to mount a suit based on your discontent because a private spiritual/religious organization did not comply with your desires to dictate policy to them. The fact that the FoF has expanded to embrace other esoteric sources besides G & O does not equate to having your basic human rights violated.

I would suggest you contact Ford Green and get a consultation. Jack probably knows how to contact him. Then you will have a much better idea what avenues are open to you.
——————-
you are poisonous DC, your tactics in presenting your arguments are deceiving at best.
You are not talking only to Elena here, but to the readers you hope to impress with this attitude that your FOF organization has nothing to hide, and that Robert Burton is an innocent human being.
C’mon! you know better! you may not be a lawyer but you do sound like one.
Who are you?

Snake in the grass! snake in the grass!

214. dragon - December 19, 2008

Crouching Tiger,

Thank you very much for your posts.

I think it is important to clarify and to discuss with each other.

What is your opinion about the following website and the informations given to the visitors:

GIG (Gurdjieff Internet Guide, Oksanen, Reijo)

http://www.gurdjieff-internet.com/article_details.php?ID=295&W=1

215. dragon - December 19, 2008

veramente,

DC is the “Twelfth Night, or What You Will” by Shakespeare but more tragicomic.

216. sharon - December 19, 2008

From Arianna Huffington, a syndicated columnist
Add Fellowship of Friends or Robert Burton to any of these examples.

See if this sounds familiar:

An ambitious and risky undertaking carried out with hubris, and featuring the weeding out of anyone who raises alarm bells, little-to-no transparency, an oversight system in which no central authority is accountable, and the deliberate manufacturing of ambiguity and complexity so that if — when — it all falls to pieces, the excuse “who could have known?” can be used …

Is it Iraq? Fannie Mae? Citigroup? Bernie Madoff?

The correct answer is: all of the above.

When you look at the elements that were crucial to the creation of each of these debacles, it’s amazing how much in common they all have. And not just in how they began but in how they ended: with those responsible being amazed at what happened, because . . . who could have known?

In fact, when historians look for a name that sums up the Bush II years, they could do worse than calling them The “Who Could Have Known?” era. Each of the disasters listed above was entirely predictable. And, indeed, was predicted. But those who rang the alarm bells were aggressively ignored, which is why it’s important that we not let those responsible get away with excuses.

Let’s start with Iraq — specifically the reconstruction of Iraq. This weekend the New York Times got its hands on the unpublished 513-page federal history of the reconstruction. It’s not pretty. As the Times puts it: It was “an effort crippled before the invasion by Pentagon planners who were hostile to the idea of rebuilding a foreign country, and then molded into a $100 billion failure by bureaucratic turf wars, spiraling violence and ignorance of the basic elements of Iraqi society and infrastructure.” As a result, almost six years and $117 billion later, many essential services are only now reaching pre-war levels.

The report quotes Colin Powell on how the Pentagon, to cover up its failures, “kept inventing numbers of Iraqi security forces (that had reached readiness) — the number would jump 20,000 a week! ‘We now have 80,000, we now have 100,000, we now have 120,000.’”

Hmm, making up numbers to realize a short-term gain, but which end up making the inevitable long-term reckoning much worse? Sounds a lot like what was happening at Citigroup at around the same time.

In late 2002, Charles Prince was put in charge of the company’s corporate and investment bank. The banking giant was already knee deep in toxic paper and aggressively looking the other way.

He was so successful at averting his eyes that when, five years later, as Wall Street began to feel the initial shocks of the mortgage meltdown, he was told that the bank owned $43 billion in mortgage-related assets — it was the first he’d heard of it. Isn’t that something he should have known?

Prince had plenty of help ignoring the obvious, particularly from Robert Rubin. According to a former Citigroup executive quoted in the long New York Times analysis of Citi’s downfall, despite ascending to the top of the Citi food chain, Prince “didn’t know a C.D.O. from a grocery list, so he looked for someone for advice and support. That person was Rubin.”

When it all came tumbling down, both Rubin and Prince portrayed themselves as helpless victims of circumstance, because … Who Could Have Known?

“I’ve thought a lot about that,” Rubin said when asked if he made mistakes at Citigroup. “I honestly don’t know. But in the context of the facts as I knew them and my role, I’m inclined to think probably not.” What he means, of course, is the facts as he chose to know them.

Sounds like he’s reading from the same damage control playbook as former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Raines. According to Raines, he can’t be blamed for what happened at Fannie Mae because mortgage stuff is so, well, complicated. In fact, he can’t even understand his own mortgage: “I know I can’t and I’ve tried,” Raines told a House committee last week. “To this day, I don’t know what it said. . . . It’s impossible for the average person to understand” mortgage terms such as negative amortization.
Committee chair Henry Waxman wasn’t buying it: “These documents make clear that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac knew what they were doing. Their own risk managers raised warning after warning about the dangers of investing heavily in the subprime and alternative mortgage markets.”

Ignoring warning after warning is an essential element of the “Who Could Have Known?” excuse, as are rewriting history and shamelessly disregarding the foresight shown by those who sounded the alarm bells.

We’re seeing the same ingredients in the Madoff affair. “We have worked with Madoff for nearly 20 years,” said Jeffrey Tucker, a former federal regulator and the head of an investment firm facing losses of $7.5 billion. “We had no indication that we … were the victims of such a highly sophisticated, massive fraudulent scheme.” Who Could Have Known?

Well, Harry Markopoulos, for one. In 1999, after researching Madoff’s methods, Markopolos wrote a letter to the SEC saying, “Madoff Securities is the world’s largest Ponzi Scheme.” He pursued his claims with the feds for the next nine years, with little result.

Then there is Alan Greenspan, who, looking back in October of this year on the makings of the financial crisis he helped create (I mean, that just happened to come out of nowhere), delivered this “Who Could Have Known?” classic: “If all those extraordinarily capable people were unable to foresee the development of this critical problem … we have to ask ourselves: Why is that? And the answer is that we’re not smart enough as people. We just cannot see events that far in advance.”

The only problem is, many people did see events that far in advance. As we’ve seen time after time, “smart enough” people are all too willing to ignore facts they don’t like. Or even worse, they construct oversight systems designed to be ineffective — and unable to provide to those in power information they don’t really want to know.
Much has been made of the smartness of Obama’s new team. But I’m hoping that their defining characteristic won’t be their IQs but their willingness to confront reality and take responsibility for their decisions.

It’s time to say goodbye to the “Who Could Have Known?” era. It’s time to know things again. And to know that you know them.

217. Panorea - December 19, 2008

Dear Susan, I am not sure whether such a discussion would flourish here. The blog is what it it and it is wonderful. No way to have it directed and after all those years of “directed” meeting I really enjoy the openness of it. Having said this I will try to wrote a few words about my findings.

There is a discussion on the GF that seems quite useful. You know whom you are talking to there….

Much love

218. nigel harris price - December 19, 2008

206 Susan Zannos

Many mental-health professionals, who deal with (shall we say) ‘ordinary’ people, when thay have to work with the loss of loved ones, try to ensure that there is a period of grieving that is long enough to unravel/regroup ‘attitude’. There should not be a ‘plugging the hole with positivity’, nor should there be an inordinate amount of ‘weeping and wailing in the loss’. For me, both in the occassion of coming out of the FOF (which took more and longer work and still finds itself manifesting in connecting on the blog) and the grieving over my mother (which took about 2 years with which to come to terms), there was somewhat of an emotional and intellectual ‘hanging’ (I cannot think of a better word). I believe it is the work of lawyers and the court system to come to the resolution. I think it will (personally for him) be bad enough for REB to be brought to trial (his false personality will probably feign a nervous breakdown!). We all must be there and bear witness to the facts…..Nigel.

219. Mick Danger - December 19, 2008

Words of advice from someone else to Susan & Nigel:
You will not “get over it”; but you will get used to it.

220. sharon - December 19, 2008

In thinking about and reacting to the op ed from Arianna Huffinton above, it really hit me in a new way, how strongly we did not want to know/hear anything bad about the “utopic” life we were living in the Fellowship of Friends. As she says: ““smart enough” people are all too willing to ignore facts they don’t like.”

This seems to be a quality intrinsic to all of us living on the planet – most of us don’t want to know about genocide about to happen in Rwanda, about banks crucial to our economy about to fail, etc, etc – then we would feel that we have to do something about it! And most of us don’t have the energy (psychic, emotional, instinctive, all of it) to respond effectively. We are afraid to take any risk in such important areas (that’s what we have government for). After the genocide, economic crash, we can get all het up about it and point fingers at the others who “should have done something”, but who wants to listen to the whistle blowers before catastrophe? Cassandra is not an archetype for nothing. We think of the Trojans as having been so stupid, but we are all Trojans. We want something so badly (enlightenment, friendship, security, wealth, power…) we are eager to ignore the signs of impending disaster.

Daily Cardiac seems to me a prime example of this – and we can see this, because a few years ago, we were where he is now. There are many DCs in FoF right now. The facts are getting too loud for some to ignore, but boy are they trying!

Again to quote the above “But I’m hoping that their defining characteristic won’t be their IQs but their willingness to confront reality and take responsibility for their decisions.”

221. Daily Cardiac - December 19, 2008

ton – 204:

“dc, what exactly do you think you are trying to ‘prove’ here? that you are ’smarter’ and better than the nasty old ‘life’ people who are now anathema? you are not going to ‘prove’ anything to anyone who woke up to the fof scam and then had the courage to walk away.

my take on your continued posts here is that you feel you need to ‘prove’ something to yourself through rationalization and attempts to ‘legitimize’ your affiliation with a corrupt and corrupting little cult.”

Regarding “proof”; as I have said numerous times, writing words in this forum does not constitute proof, for the simple reason that anyone can write anything they wish to write. People can write truth fantasy, distortion, hearsay, or any mixture of each. But if someone writes from truth and someone else is looking for truth a connection can be made. A connection can be made which constitutes proof. In these matters proof is always personal and internal. What serves as proof for one serves as disproof for another.

Regarding why I am here, I am here for the same reasons as you; to state my beliefs (a fact that ought to be apparent to anyone participating on this blog.)

What may not be apparent, but which I have stated before is that I am not here to convince you or anyone else who holds your beliefs that you should consider my beliefs;

I am here for anyone who wants to hear the viewpoints of a current student who has found what he came for through the FoF and RB. I assume there are some of those individuals reading these pages.

222. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - December 19, 2008

#220: I am all for taking this awakening global. We humans are responsible for the financial crisis and the environmental mess we find ourselves in now because we denied their existence for decades.

The FOF meltdown is an example of what is happening on a global scale. And one of the reasons why it feels good to leave the FOF is that we acknowledge our denial and have taken responsibility for our part in it.

223. whalerider - December 19, 2008

Daily Challenge:
“It’s entirely possible for someone to read a teacher’s book and know him better than a disciple who spent years at his side.”

It is entirely possible and indeed highly likely that a person could be totally decieved and mislead by what they read in a guru’s idealized and edited writings compared to the disciple who spent years at the guru’s side experiencing the guru’s being in the moment with all their faculties on hand.

That’s the difference between knowledge and being.

224. aline - December 19, 2008

#206 susan Zannos

Thanks Susan for your post.
I think that there are two different points in what you described:
One is : why people join?
The other one is :Why people stayed so long?
It may be for the same reasons but may be not.

One thing I am sure of now is that we all shared the same common ground to join the school.
What does it required to follow blindly a leader, to make abrastraction of your common sense, to erase all the deepest links you established before joining the school and ….at the end to erase even yourself ?
a lack of self confidence.
No one trusts oneself strongly enough to live directly what one has to live, without living through the established project of a leader.
I didn’t perceive that, until I erased myself so completely to satisfy the will of RB, that it was impossible not to see it.

Then I just took distance from Apollo, RB, students (some), but I stayed almost ten more years .
Why?
First because I was thinking this is my work to transform what RB gave me to transform and that this was my specific relation to the teacher.Even though things were looking absurd, we were taught that living with this absurdity was the work itself.

But also I realized also that during 23 years I have seen Robert may be all together a week.
If I would have had the opportunity to see him a full month right away when i joigned, I think I would have run, because things would have been connected more quickly in my mind.

Still just staying so long could be linked with a lack of self confidence.

225. somebody - December 19, 2008

Dear Friends,
 
You are invited to join our Teacher for Special Christmas Eve and Day Dining Events.
 
To reserve please call: 692-…. The Journey Forth Hotline or come to the Journey Forth Booth at Apollo d’Oro
during Lunch Time.
 
Thank you.
Dining with Robert & Journey Forth Team
 
WEDNESDAY, December 24 – 8:30 am Christmas Eve Breakfast in the Salon
Seat at Robert’s Table: Regular $100/Special $75
Standing: Regular $50/Special $35
Topic: Steward is a Mask
 
WEDNESDAY, December 24 – 7:30 pm Winter Wonderland Informal Dinner
Following the Meeting at the Prytaneion
Seat at Robert’s Table: Regular $150/Special $100
Seat at Tables of Six: Regular $50/Special $35
   
THURSDAY, December 25 – 8:30 am Christmas Day Breakfast in the Salon
Seat at Robert’s Table: Regular $125/ Special $90
Standing: Regular $60/ Special $45
Topic: Birth
 
THURSDAY, December 25 – 5:30 pm Christmas Day Formal Dinner in the Salon
Three-Course Dinner
Dress Code: Gentlemen Tuxedos, Ladies Long Gowns
Seat at Robert’s Table: Regular $200/ Special $150
Standing: Regular $100/Special $75
Topic: Joy

226. somebody - December 19, 2008

Dear Friends,
 
Please make a note of the following additional events during the New Year’s celebration:
 
Wednesday,  December 31
9:00pm New Year’s Eve Dinner in the Galleria Salon
Seating:    $500 or $350 + 2 Full-Day Vouchers
                Senior – $300 or $200 + 1 ½ Day Voucher
For reservations, please call Dining with Robert at 692-…. (692-ToBe)
 
Thursday, January 1
11:00am New Year’s Day Meeting in the Galleria Salon
Prices:
First and second row for $150
General seats for $55 (regular) and $40 (special and senior)
Standing for $50 (regular) and $35 (special)

12:30pm New Year’s Day Brunch in the Goethe Dining Room – waiting list only
For reservations, please see the Journey Forth helpers at Apollo d’Oro.
 
Friday, January 2
6:00pm Meeting with Robert in the Galleria Salon – general spaces available only
For reservations, please see the Journey Forth helpers at Apollo d’Oro.
Note: This is one of the five meetings included in the Journey Forth package. If you already registered for this meeting as an a la carte item through the Journey Forth reservation system, you will see it marked in your passport.

If you have further questions, please feel free to contact us at 692-…. Journey Forth Hot Line.
 
In presence,
the Journey Forth Team

227. nigel harris price - December 19, 2008

225 somebody

More nourishment/value for money in a BigMac!…..Nigel.

228. No Quiet Zone - December 19, 2008

Sharon 216: “From Arianna Huffington, a syndicated columnist. Add Fellowship of Friends or Robert Burton to any of these examples. See if this sounds familiar:

“An ambitious and risky undertaking carried out with hubris, and featuring the weeding out of anyone who raises alarm bells, little-to-no transparency, an oversight system in which no central authority is accountable, and the deliberate manufacturing of ambiguity and complexity…

“Is it Iraq? Fannie Mae? Citigroup? Bernie Madoff?”
****************

Sharon, perfect comparison and analogy.

carried out with hubris, check.
featuring the weeding out of anyone who raises alarm bells, check.
little-to-no transparency, check.
an oversight system in which no central authority is accountable, check.
the deliberate manufacturing of ambiguity and complexity, check.

Lying and obfuscation, check and check.

229. aline - December 19, 2008

#225 # 226 Somebody

Now it is like in London; Sales are before Christmas.

230. lauralupa - December 19, 2008

On Special Sale Today
The Path to Painful Presence

Come join the Cult of Robert Earl Burton
Learn how awakening can be obtained (1)
by being abused by the Goddess in a Man’s Body
and her Gilded Troupe of Flying Monkeys
learn the Joys of Unwanted Sex with an Elderly Queer
who craves Rich Toys, Group Sex and Depravity
We welcome you to be Humiliated and Enslaved by Our Evil Guru
This privilege will only cost you hundreds of dollars
Your family ties, your cherished friendships,
Your sense of self, your personal history
It’s a Worthwile Investment, a Foolproof Deal
No doubt abut it: what could be more precious
than Dining with the Invisible Gods at your side?

(1) disclaimer: awakening can only be obtained if following all the Cult Leader’s instructions to the letter and without questioning; any failure to do so will result in loss of all possibility of future awakening and eternal damnation

231. Panorea - December 19, 2008

Where did people find the money to pay $1000 for a seat at the New Year’s Eve dinner? Insane. It is now the half (what a bargain!) but still we are talking about a lot of money.

232. Panorea - December 19, 2008

Sorry, I forgot…..

Verification, Valuation, Payment

233. No Quiet Zone - December 19, 2008

Panorea… to answer your question in 232:

1) Credit cards. Someone recently said about the U.S economy, “Never underestimate the ability of U.S. consumers to spend money they don’t have.” Many FOF members are U.S. consumers.

2) Most attendees don’t pay $1,000. My guess is that a small percentage of the people attending actually pay the full amount, if anything. Burton handpicks several people who have offered years of blind loyalty and who have already donated a bajillion dollars. He realizes they have helped recruit hundreds of new young guys during traveling creature trips, and have looked the other way steadfastly. So they get free seats at numerous events just to make sure the room is full. (Remember: people start asking themselves, “Why am I doing this?” if the room is not full.) Of course, it he’s able to find enough people to fill the room at $1,000 a head, he does it. But I doubt that he’s able to do that very often. Maybe he collects a few thousand, takes the money, and runs for a trip to the Amalfi Coast in mid-January.

With several young guys joining him.

This is “the work” as defined by Robert Burton through his actions, not his words.

234. elena - December 20, 2008

207. Daily Cardiac – December 19, 2008
Elena – 1832:

“One of the points I am trying to make is that it is absurd that the government cannot violate basic human rights while a Cult or other institutions are supposed to be able to.”

The issue Elena is whether your basic human rights have been violated.

Jomo Piñata: Again, Elena, you don’t say what the source is, you just provide a long quote with more of the same. The source you are quoting is not the United States Constitution. Instead, it’s someone characterizing the United States Constitution. There’s a big difference.

Thank you both for your opinions. It’s interesting that you limit yourselves to address the impediments but not the other issues at hand such as the fact that The Fellowship of Friends presented itself as a Fourth Way School which is supposed to happen in regular life and instead manipulated us so abusively that it ended up separating us from our families, the people around us and humanity at large. The fraud could not be more obvious or easier to prove.

Why don’t you address those issues you sick pimps? That is Daily Cardiac and Company?

Jomo, you’re right, I assumed that the summary of the constitution came from the constitution and no longer have the original site where I took the text from the internet.
Your news that everything has changed for the worst and there is nothing to do are just too bad, aren’t they? It’s a good thing that one can still do what one can and then move on! Hopelessness was not given to me when it was dealt out.

235. elena - December 20, 2008

207. Daily Cardiac – December 19, 2008
Elena – 1832:

“One of the points I am trying to make is that it is absurd that the government cannot violate basic human rights while a Cult or other institutions are supposed to be able to.”

The issue Elena is whether your basic human rights have been violated.

Not just mine, Pimp, the basic human rights of every single member of the Fellowship of Friends were AND ARE horrendously violated by the Fellowship. Too bad that those still in have already been raped for so long that they think life cannot be different.

Doesn’t Rumi say that if you try to keep a man from eating mud he’ll go crazy after he’s gotten used to it?

236. elena - December 20, 2008

Jomo Piñata,

Or rather, I already saw the dead end of hopelessness and it no longer convinces me.

237. ton - December 20, 2008

jomo thanks for the link here… among other things, it’s remarkable how much john locke influences our current experience of culture… he’s a major figure in educational theory.

bares reposting and bookmarking for future reference:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-rights.htm

jomo, re: “Natural law” and “positive law” can you give us a riff or two? in ‘layman’s’ terms… thank you for your posts.

susan thanks for your recent post, deep questions and great food for thought… and thanks aline for your responses.

thanks to all, elena for your fire, thanks to all who use humor, wit and sarcasm to keep things light in here, thanks especially to yesri, bruce, james, laura, harry, nqz, somebody, another name, whalerider, suzy, mick, jack, kid, draco, vera, sharon, ct, and etc, etc…

nigel around 202, your post reminded me of a favorite racantour, public speaker, social commentator and author, HOWARD ZINN, who penned a book titled “YOU CAN”T BE NEUTRAL ON A MOVING TRAIN.” the train is rolling. thanks nige, for continuing to post. i’m sending healing prayers in your direction and at this suggestion i hope others here will too. i wish you a complete and speedy recovery from the trauma of the surgeon’s knife.

238. tatyana - December 20, 2008

Dear DC,
Can you tell where students get so much money? I was always wondering but nobody ever tells. I make $13 an hour and my TP was $360 (reduced payment for a mother) I just don’t have so many hundreds of dollars to go to the dinners (where you can’t eat anyway no matter how many courses there are) or to the meetings where you hear the same things over and over again (which you can read on Propylaia for free).
Are you planning to go to any of these dinners/meetings? I am sure you are.

239. elena - December 20, 2008

206 Susan Zanos
¨But I am interested in understanding the 30 years I spent avoiding taking responsibility for my actions.¨

I do not expect any of my answers or points of view will satisfy you but I’m still happy to share them and very glad to see you participating openly.

I tried to avoid responsibility while I was convinced that others had to respond: Parents, adults, other people. Then one day I realized after hitting myself against the floor, that I was meant not only to respond for myself but for everything others were not willing or had not been able to respond for, especially my parents, without complaining or judging. And all that I could expect of myself was the best I could do. It was painful, but it was wonderful to know that there is enough of one’s self to do so. That dying out of inertia is not easier than dying standing on one’s feet and on one’s feet, even pride is abundant.

The Fellowship structured itself out in such a way that members were supposed to be responsible for their suffering or “friction” when confronted with Robert’s and the Fellowship’s flaws with the excuse that Robert was a Conscious being and we were not. We were supposed to ¨transform it¨ without complaining and we were excellent at it. The set up was that we were supposed to be transforming ¨life¨ OUR life, our so called identifications or negative emotions, so every time we were confronted with the absurdities of the Fellowship we were supposed to separate from the friction and control our negative responses to it. The more a person does this for the wrong cause, the weaker his or her will becomes, so the less self trust ensues and eventually she or he loose the sense of reference and trust in their own perceptions or principles.

Judging our selves for having played our part does not add to the understanding. In my case, I simply didn’t trust myself enough to know that what I was perceiving which was the madness of it all, all along, was that accurate. I kept wanting to be with others and believing that their intentions were sincere. That everyone wanted to work on a better world. The more time I spent in, the less trust I had on myself because it is precisely self trust what Thought Reform Environments mine in people so that the blind idolatry for the guru or dictator increases.

I also think most members were doing what would of been “right” had the Fellowship and Robert been what they were presenting themselves as, simply following and obeying what we thought was a conscious being but in not being that, they overloaded the members with so much fake living and burden that we ended up not knowing the difference until it hit us in the eyes.

I don’t think the process of taking responsibility for one’s self can move along without taking responsibility for the whole. Separating one’s self from the whole phenomenon and pretending one was the only responsible one, which is what Daily Cardiac and the Fellowship try to keep brainwashing people with to disempower them or us so that the Fellowship is not held responsible, is as absurd as pretending that the whole of the responsibility was Robert Burton’s and the pimp’s. But being able to see the different proportions of responsibility at least allows one to understand that the good will of any average human being is innocent enough to get swallowed by the ill will of any such complex set up because the tendency to want to be accepted in the community is so powerful. And “communities” in regular western society are so rare that it is not that surprising that three million Americans belong to Cults. Fresh, transparent communication amongst people without an “agenda” is very rare.

SZ: If there are others who are willing to share observations about what they are learning as the recovery process gradually unwinds.

Reconnecting to the world without the naivete seems to help. Knowing that there is suffering and injustice, poverty and corruption outside and inside and still know that one can do what is in one’s hands, seems to help.

240. dick moron - December 20, 2008

237. tatyana

I just don’t have so many hundreds of dollars to go to the dinners (where you can’t eat anyway no matter how many courses there are) or to the meetings where you hear the same things over and over again
__________________

Can someone more recently freed, explain why devotees cannot eat at these costly dinners? I have vivid memories of fatty Bob slurping every millimeter of sauce off his plate during “teaching” dinners in my day. Usually the food and wine was pretty good, so Bob’s dull, constant droning of “wisdom” (between slurps) was more bearable for my “lower self”. Belchhhh!

As for meetings. That was only a forum for self-inflated egos to spew their parroted words to a captive audience.

The truth shall set you free.

241. harryhindsight - December 20, 2008

Daily Fartysnack

“It’s extremely formatory to think that a direct link to Gurdjieff is incumbent upon a physical connection. We are talking about spiritual understanding.”

Yes, we’re talking about spiritual understanding too. Your conclusion is based on what you’ve been told by Burton right? How he receives messages from Leonardo Da Vinci through his dental fillings and suchlike. The question you might ask yourself is whether you would actually buy a used car from him. He’s a deluded liar D.C.

242. fofblogmoderator - December 20, 2008

233 is newly moderated

243. tatyana - December 20, 2008

240.
Well, because the Lower Self is identified with food, studetns are asked to eat at home before dinner so their instinctive center won’t take space during the teaching event and will be able to pay attention to the teaching. Students are asked to watch if Robert stopped eating – to put their forks down. If he is eating – it is fine to have a bite with Presence. But if he talks all the time, you won’t have much time to eat. You are there for the impressions – not to fill the stomach!
I remember in Moscow center when Robert was visiting we had a dinner for 60 people. We were stressing about the level of food prepared and had a couple of testing dinners before the actual dinner. But during the actual dinner with Robert nobody had a chance to try the food. The chefs were panicking that the dinner was not cooked well, but in reality Robert was talking all evening.

244. No Quiet Zone - December 20, 2008

Panorea and Tatyana, you ask how do people pay $1,000 for a New Years Eve dinner? Well, there are many answers:

1) Credit cards. An economist recently said that we should never underestimate the ability of U.S. consumers to spend money they don’t have. Of course, many FOF students are U.S. consumers. People used them liberally during in recent years to keep the fof going. The problem that Burton has is that many U.S. consumers have maxed out their cards and are struggling to pay down their debts. Plus, banks have become stricter in their lending policies — hopefully. So not only can’t followers use their cards for $1,000 New Year’s Eve dinners, but any money they may be earning is going toward paying down the cards. Not a good thing for Burton’s fund raising efforts.
2). Most of the people attending on New Year’s Eve won’t be paying anything. This is one part of the scam. Burton tries to fill as many spaces as he can, and then fills in the remainder with blind loyalists who have already shown their unswerving support over the years by never questioning, never complaining, recruiting young men during their traveling teacher trips, and contributing huge sums whenever they can. If Burton doesn’t fill the empty seats, the people who ARE paying $1,000 start questioning why they’re doing it. So the goal is to always fills the seats, whether the seats are free, or whether they’re paid for. For the most part, they are not paid for. I’m sure Burton is still able to pull in a few thousand at each dinner, but not everyone is paying a huge amount.
3) Home equity lines of credit. Once again, this is becoming a thing of the past, if it isn’t already. Hundreds of homes were built in the Oregon House area during the 1990s in preparation for the “Fall of California” which Burton predicted for 1998. Burton revised his prediction — saying it would happen later — and people continued to build, and many of them were able to gain one or two hundred thousand dollars in equity. Refinancing was easy a few years ago — and they spent hugely on auctions, and trips to Egypt, and hugely expensive dinners. That may not happen much anymore.

Anyway, I’m sure there’s more to the story. But that’s one part of it.

245. No Quiet Zone - December 20, 2008

233 LOL. I tried re-posting this when it seemed to disappear into the ether. Oh well. If it shows up again, I added a few thoughts. Enjoy.

246. harryhindsight - December 20, 2008

Dick Moron,

“Can someone more recently freed, explain why devotees cannot eat at these costly dinners?”

Well, it’s the lower self that wants to eat you see, and when a man number 13 is, “teaching” and you’re eating, that can only be the adversary at work. So the truly farcical spectacle is enacted wherein nobody will eat unless Bobby is eating and Bobby would usually eat very little, he being far more interested in explaining the inner significance of Rhino poop to one and all. When Bob’s flatware went down, everyone’s flatware went down and those unfortunates with food in their mouths had an experience of what passes for conscience. It was never explained that after dinner Bob would usually chow down on a student or four and then stuff his face with food. Apparently, that prick D___an would comment once inside the kitchen with peoples plates about which students had been eating while Robert was talking.

“As for meetings. That was only a forum for self-inflated egos to spew their parroted words to a captive audience.”

Nobody gives a personal angle at meetings with Bob the knob polisher anymore. They’ve been outlawed since the famous St. Petersburg meeting where students asked him a slew of uncomfortable questions. Nowadays, a few neutered harem inmates pass out, “Gold Alchemy” cards with quotations from spiritual sources that are taken entirely and jarringly out of context. The dearly beloved perspire in anticipation that celestial Bob will choose them next to rise up, read and be filmed intoning beatitudes to the sequence, nobly and appropriately.

247. dick moron - December 20, 2008

244. harryhindsight

Thanks for your wonderfully descriptive account of the recent state of “The teaching”. Sounds like the enlightened one has stepped up his obsession with absolute control of anything and anyone around him, to truly absurd heights. I can only surmise that those followers still in after 10 or more years are gluttons for humiliation at the hands of a depraved puppet master who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about any individual, unless they happen to provide some immediate sensual or monetary benefit to his unending cravings.

Your hindsight is truly hair-raising.

Cheers!

248. nigel harris price - December 20, 2008

237 ton

Thanks, mate!…..Nigel

249. Daily Cardiac - December 20, 2008

Tatyana – 238:

“Dear DC,
Can you tell where students get so much money? I was always wondering but nobody ever tells. I make $13 an hour and my TP was $360 (reduced payment for a mother) I just don’t have so many hundreds of dollars to go to the dinners (where you can’t eat anyway no matter how many courses there are) or to the meetings where you hear the same things over and over again (which you can read on Propylaia for free).
Are you planning to go to any of these dinners/meetings? I am sure you are.”

Students have very different financial circumstances; some have very limited incomes, some others a little more and some can afford to go to as many events as they want to. Some work extra jobs just to go to meetings and events.

There is an old saying “where there’s a will there’s a way.” If a person has the right attitude and values something enough it often happens that they attract what they want.

It’s an illusion that we “make” money. We can be willing to do what it takes to get what we value and need and the rest is in the hands of the gods. If someone is working on themselves they may not ever get certain things that are not good for their evolution no matter how much they want it. But if someone wants what is also good for their soul and truly values it I don’t see how it could not come to that person.

Students who want to go to the events can be creative in finding ways to go; vouchers, serving (you hear a lot of the angles that way for just carrying a few plates in).

One comment you made was that you could read the meeting notes free anyway, and while you don’t get the energy you would get by being there, some find that way also feeds them well.

I always liked the idea there wasn’t the space to eat much of the very well prepared food. I found it a good way to take off a pound or two here or there. It also showed me how little food we really need to consume in a day and still be healthy.

I’ll go to a few of the coming events; is there anyone you want me to say hello to?

250. dick moron - December 20, 2008

247. Daily Cardiac

I always liked the idea there wasn’t the space to eat much of the very well prepared food. I found it a good way to take off a pound or two here or there. It also showed me how little food we really need to consume in a day and still be healthy.
_____

Aww shucks!! That makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Good for you!
Can I loan you a grand so you can go pick up some energy at a meetin’?

251. fofblogmoderator - December 20, 2008

243 & 244 are newly moderated. I’m not sure why some of the posts lately are getting hung up in moderation

252. Yesri Baba - December 20, 2008

“I’ll go to a few of the coming events”

Uh, I think she was asking about the dinners and meetings.

253. Yesri Baba - December 20, 2008

This is some advanced spiritual school. After years practicing esoteric techniques of attention control you can’t eat and listen to bullshit at the same time?

254. Draco - December 20, 2008

DC “I always liked the idea there wasn’t the space to eat much of the very well prepared food. I found it a good way to take off a pound or two here or there. It also showed me how little food we really need to consume in a day and still be healthy.”

This could be a very succesful diet plan. Prepare haute cuisine and don’t eat. Robert is brilliant in his simplicity.

255. No Quiet Zone - December 20, 2008

Harry (246): no joke, and no exaggeration.

256. dragon - December 20, 2008

weekendpoemskoan

An Exquisite Truth –

A Poem by Hsu Yun

This is an exquisite truth:

Saints and ordinary folks are the same from the start.

Inquiring about a difference

Is like asking to borrow string when you’ve got a good strong rope.

Every Dharma is known in the heart.

After a rain, the mountain colors intensify.

Once you become familiar with the design of fate’s illusions

Your ink-well will contain all of life and death.

Koan: Stone Buddha

Stone Buddha sits in starlight
Red paint flaking, waiting
For Enlightenment
That does not come
To stone Buddhas.

Robert G. Brown 2007-03-21

From Duality to Unity
a poem
by Yao Feng

In the stillness and silence of what I call my place,
I thought I was alone.

So, I sang, and I danced, and I talked…
I thought I was alone.

Then I laughed, and I cried, and I prayed, and I implored…
I thought I was alone.

Then, I realized, “Alone? What’s that?
Aren’t you Me? Am I not you?”

Then, I wanted to sing, and dance, and talk, and laugh,
And cry, and pray, and implore…

But this time, all I could do was to LOVE…

257. No Quiet Zone - December 20, 2008

246: “Well, it’s the lower self that wants to eat you see, and when a man number 13 is, “teaching” and you’re eating, that can only be the adversary at work.”

People also pay a bit less to “attend” a dinner just to watch everyone eat — usually standing behind the diners with their hands folded in front of them, or some other fof pose.

Doing weird things like this “creates memory.” — like throwing dinner rolls onto the floor, having people stand behind you while you’re dining, or having sex with Bob. All of it creates memory, so therefore it’s perfectly acceptable. Maxing out your credit card(s) creates memory. Getting kicked out of the fof for asking awkward questions in St. Petersburg creates memory, too.

258. elena - December 20, 2008

Jomo Piñata:

“Natural law theory was abandoned in American courts generations ago. American courts do not enforce rights rooted in “natural law,” i.e., rights which inhere in nature or in human beings. American courts enforce rights rooted in “positive law” — enactments of governments. Don’t delude yourself that American courts will ever go back to “natural law.” Such a turn of events is about as likely as the prospect that American scientists will abandon current thinking about combustion and return to “phlogiston theory.””

I wonder what positive law is if it is not rooted in human beings? Is it that American Courts do not care about humans like Robert Burton? Is that why most of the enablers and he himself belong to the same tradition? Or why Mr. Bush and so many others can enter a Nation for the oil and destroy it and Americans allow it and support it?

I did not bother to look at the phlogiston theory because it is probably another post presenting such a “scientific” point of view that it skates in a dead end like the previous one.

Some people enjoy the role of putting warm pads on people that are burnt by the Fellowship making them believe that they actually care but deep in their convictions actually work to support the Fellowship while others bring buck loads of water to extinguish its fire. I wonder why you’ve chosen the former?

From your previous selection:
“It is here that conservatives try to resurrect their old arguments: that rights are natural, inalienable, God-given and self-evident. Unfortunately, these don’t work as OUGHT arguments either. Let’s review each one:

Self-evident rights: Philosophers have argued about what rights we ought to have for thousands of years. What rights should be is hardly obvious.

________Hardly obvious to whom?

“Liberals believe that rights are social constructs, defended by force and open to change and improvement. Rights cannot be natural, like laws of nature, because nature enforces its laws absolutely, whereas rights are frequently broken. Rights cannot be inalienable, because governments frequently revoke rights. They cannot be God-given, because God originally blessed the rights of monarchy, genocide, polygamy, parental killing of disrespectful children, and other rights no one seriously defends today. Rights cannot be self-evident, because philosophers have been vigorously arguing over them for thousands of years.

______ Isn’t it interesting that what you defend, for I imagine that you are presenting me with this text because you find it defendable, is what you are giving dead end solutions to? The first statement here says exactly what I’ve been stating all along which is that even the American Constitution is not FIXED and if it is legalizing rape and crime in Cults it too needs to be reformed. I actually find where in the roots of the Constitution are enough basic statements to counteract the abuses of institutions like Cults and you answer saying that those roots are backwards and have been abandoned and that the Constitution is no longer connected to human beings.
Where you in the Fellowship or was the Fellowship in you? No wonder I never fitted there or here.

“God-given rights: If God has told us what our rights ought to be, then we would have to accept the justness of monarchy, slavery, genocide, polygamy, killing disrespectful children, and more. To acknowledge that we have a different concept of ideal rights today is to completely surrender the claim that our ideal rights come from God.”

———–Literal interpretation of religious texts have been misused for centuries and the Fellowship does the same thing with the System making of Robert a God that cannot be questioned. Isn’t that what members in line with Daily Cardiac state? That he can rape anyone because he is above the Law?

“Inalienable rights: At first, it seems logical to believe that once we recognize an ideal right, it OUGHT to be permanent to the individual, and no one else should take it away. Unfortunately, this does not follow. Rights are ultimately intended to promote survival. However, our survival needs are constantly changing. One example is the right to procreate without limit. Throughout most of human history, individuals should have had the right to procreate as much as they wanted. Indeed, most cultures actively promoted child-rearing, as a means to survival. However, today’s population explosion threatens to devastate the planet with pollution and resource depletion. It threatens the quality of life, if not the very survival, of the human race. Our right to unlimited procreation increasingly runs counter to our right to life and reasonable happiness. When changing survival conditions bring rights into conflict, one of them will have to be repealed — inevitably.”

I know a man, all too well, who pays a thousand dollars to any individual who castrates himself because he also thinks that the problem of the world today is that there are too many people and not the fact that a few profit from most of what there is and the many live at the edge of survival. He also lends six acres of land instead of giving money if the men are willing to have the bisectomy. They’ve ended up living in a town that the people around call The Town of the Castrated. Young people in serious conditions of poverty buy this deal easily and you hear stories like this one all too often: A couple wanted to have a child so after getting pregnant, the man had the bisectomy so that he could more easily help his wife and child when he was born with the land that he was to be “lended”. The child was born dead. Young men in their twenties easily decide they don’t want children and need the thousand dollars there and then, and that alone determines their destiny for the whole of a lifetime.

“Natural rights: Some claim that we can know ideal rights by looking into human nature. For example, each person desires life, freedom and happiness. From these natural desires, they argue, we can extrapolate an ideal set of rights. Unfortunately, this approach is flawed. Killing, lying, cheating, and stealing are also intrinsic to human nature. Should humans have the right to commit these acts as well? Of course not. In fact, is seems a little scary to base our ideal set of rights on sinful human nature. Society actually designs rights and laws to prevent humans from following their pathological and sadistic natures.”

________Again, this both supports that Laws are responsible for the violations and crimes of the Fellowship of Friends and at the same time annihilates the ideals with which the law can act. Dead ends are so dead that they look like men who decided to plant themselves rather than use their limbs to move. They skate around the same point like Daily Cardiac does systematically, without going anywhere because they’ve cut their own wings. They justify everything with a few facts without consciousness of the whole. Systems, any System is a Whole on which no matter what theory stands, and when the theory is willing to deviate the facts for its benefit, it has its own very definite agenda. A “Human System” has an agenda like any other: man and his resources and their intrinsic unity. How men relate to the world determines how they live not just survive. Different states of consciousness determine their consciences. States of consciousness are simply different conditions of how they relate to the whole. The whole of themselves and the whole of the world.

“However, some defenders of natural rights — including some liberals — have a more sophisticated view of natural rights. As noted above, they argue that rights are intended to promote survival. That is, rights are an attempt to form a high-functioning, smooth running society. According to this idea of natural law, our rights ought to be based on the laws of science, like game theory and economics. For example, a slave-owner gave a slave the right to eat for economic reasons, because the unnecessary death of his slave would have disrupted his business. However, in later centuries, we learned that giving all individuals a greater degree of freedom resulted in an even more prosperous economy, so we freed the slaves. The progress of science and economics is constantly improving our idea of rights.”

__________Yes, now we have the population of the world buying thousands of useless items because the producers need to sell them. We waste our natural resources building objects that destroy the planet’s balance and the existing rights that this text that you present defends, are simply there to protect those producers in power. The “agenda” in this text is no more human than Robert Burton’s insistency on expensive events in which the members cannot even speak. Your attitude of impatience with me reminds me of his attitude. Please don’t bother to be patient with me any more; I don’t need it.

“The argument continues that if we could somehow learn the true laws of science and economics, we could fashion a perfect set of rights that would maximize our well-being. One could call these scientific laws “the laws of nature,” or “natural law.” A good analogy is math. Humans have only a limited and imperfect understanding of math laws by which the universe operates. But if humans could ever learn these math laws, they could dramatically improve their lives.”

___________Science and economics today are at the service of the classes in power, so are the Courts and Judges and most of the politicians and clergy. They are all disconnected from the well being of the human being and connected to the use and abuse of the resources by a few in power. There is not a wholesome approach to the resources for the well being of everyone but very much like in the Fellowship: the benefit of a few at the cost of the many. This does not have to do with Communism. Communism fell in the same trap and those in power abused it too. It has to do with the conscience of resources and equal rights based on the consciousness of human equality. It of course, does not allow the concept of private property and the agenda of this text is as strong an advocate of it as conservatives are.

“The problem with this more scientific view of natural rights is that it explains both everything and nothing at the same time.”

__________ So does this text, agenda and dogma.

“To say “the laws of nature should dictate our rights” is like saying “the laws of physics produce all the different species in the animal kingdom.” By itself, this observation is not meaningful. It doesn’t explain why some animals become rabbits and others become tortoises. Like species, rights vary considerably over time and region. A more practical explanation is that societies adopt their unique rights in order to meet their peculiar survival demands.”

_______The “agenda” here is that the liberals justify their explanations saying they are “survival” demands and apply them to the whole of humanity without acknowledging the fact that they are convenient only to those in power, whether they are liberals, communists or conservatives. It simply reveals that modern politicians think with their pockets and not for the well being of the whole of humanity. Mr. Obama seems to be on a different scale at least in his presentation. I hope he will take his people with him. The election of a president is a hope in the people. Will they shoot him shortly?

“Rights have improved with science, to be sure, just as human breeding of animals has improved with science. But that does not explain 100 percent of the diversity among species, any more than it explains 100 percent of the historical diversity among rights. Different environments have different survival needs, and this results in diversity, for both species and rights.”

_________I wonder why this text limits itself to denying things but does not offer anything of value of its own. It is not giving any better an explanation of the diversity of species, it simply says that science cannot explain it either.

“Such unpredictable diversity makes it impossible to use the laws of science to declare a rigid, dogmatic set of highly specific rights. Rights should change to meet changing survival needs. If natural rightists claim to know a rigid and specific set of rights based on their perfect understanding of science, well, the foolishness of such a claim should be obvious.”

_______And so it falls in the ridiculous pattern of stating that since everything is so unpredictable we might as well not even hope to understand it and remain in a dogmatic position of adapting our lives to changing what ever needs to be changed so that those in power can survive, which it pretends is the “survival of the human race”. How convenient, I wonder if they studied in the Fellowship of Friends or maybe it was the other way around?

259. elena - December 20, 2008

Veramente,

Glad you’re not afraid to be here. Thank you.

Thanks Ton………s!

260. dragon - December 20, 2008

Hi Elena,

the truth may be cruelly!
But once more there is only one way against evil:

NO+ACT! I can see it in your fire!

Endless discussing can also encourage evil!

And I ask: Aren’t we getting the message (also concerning the FOF methods/hurting friends with mental weapons, with the dark equipment)?

We can call it the banality of evil but we are able to act against it! We can hide behind our thoughts, our laziness, our spiritual condition, our past, our fear, our pride, our helplessness…..

From:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1867735,00.html

THE SKIMMER
Why We’re OK With Hurting Strangers
By ALEX ALTMAN Friday, Dec. 19, 2008

Replicating Milgram: Would People Still Obey Today?
Jerry M. Burger, PhD.
American Psychological Association
The Gist:
Chances are you underestimate your capacity for cruelty. Stanley Milgram’s famous obedience experiments in the 1960s and ’70s demonstrated that we’re conditioned to inflict pain on complete strangers when impelled to do so by an authority figure. Milgram’s experiments — linchpins of any freshman psych class — were simple. Volunteer participants were enlisted to help with a study purportedly tracking the effects of punishment on learning. When the “learner” made an error, the volunteer was told to administer an electric shock. Milgram found volunteers were disturbingly willing to follow orders, even as voltage levels increased in intensity and the subject’s mild protests escalated into anguished shrieks. (The shocks were fake; both the learner and the authority figure prodding the volunteer were complicit in the experiment.) “The haunting images of participants administering electric shocks and the implications of the findings for understanding seemingly inexplicable events such as the Holocaust and Abu Ghraib have kept the research alive for more than four decades,” Burger writes in the January issue of American Psychologist, the journal of the American Psychological Association. Have we learned from these atrocities? Burger’s replication of one of Milgram’s most famous demonstrations yields alarming results.
The participants:
Burger recruited 29 men and 41 women using newspaper ads, online classifieds, and fliers distributed at libraries, farmer’s markets, coffee shops and community centers. The participants, whose average age was 43, were predominantly white (54%) and educated (40% held bachelor’s degrees, while 20% held a master’s). The participants were promised $50 for two 45-minute sessions. Payment was not contingent upon performing the requested functions during the experiment.
The results:
In Burger’s experiment, 70% of participants were willing to proceed past the maximum 150-volt jolt level; in the corresponding Milgram experiment, 83% continued. The variance, Burger explains, is not statistically significant.
Highlight reel:
1. On whether gender affects obedience: “I found no evidence for gender differences in obedience. Researchers have speculated that the tendency for women to be more concerned about the learner’s plight might be offset by the tendency for women to be less assertive than men who standing up to the experimenter.”
2. On how “situational variables” trump empathy: “Participants who were high in empathic concern expressed a reluctance to continue the procedure earlier than did those who were low on this trait. But this early reluctance did not translate into a greater likelihood of refusing to continue. This latter finding fails to support the notion that a lack of empathy explains the high obedience rates in Milgram’s studies. Rather, the results again are in line with those who point to the power of situational variables to overcome feelings of reluctance in this situation.”
The Lowdown:
Burger’s replication of Milgram’s famous demonstration was watered down somewhat; a review of his findings by University of California-Davis professor Alan Elms terms the study “Obedience Lite.” The electric charges were purposefully subtler and the conditions less stressful. But the takeaway is no less disturbing: humanity’s threshold for cruelty is, like everything else, situational. We seem wired to follow orders, even when they’re harmful to others. In her chilling portrayal of Nazi middle-manager Adolf Eichmann, Hannah Arendt famously excoriated this impulse as “the banality of evil.” Evil is way too strong a word for the conduct of this study’s participants, but it seems clear that despite all of humanity’s horror shows over the past decades, we aren’t getting the message.

261. lauralupa - December 20, 2008

DC 249
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Jiddu Krishnamurti

262. nigel harris price - December 20, 2008

Daily Cardiac quoted:- “Where there’s a will, there’s a way”……….

The point is – no group will provides for Will of the Individual, the ”I” or the Self – just more ‘groupiness’ and lack of individuality. Can you really imagine Shakespeare or Whitman going to dinners, concerts or meetings in order to further their art-forms? Or can you imagine a FOFfer going to dinners, concerts and meetings, then being able to paint classical pictures? NO! They are all too busy developing finance or computer programming in essence (that is a joke, by the way!)…..Nigel.

263. nigel harris price - December 20, 2008

Rodney Collin wrote “To Oneself one must come”…..Nigel.

264. Jomo Piñata - December 20, 2008

Elena/258

Some people enjoy the role of putting warm pads on people that are burnt by the Fellowship making them believe that they actually care but deep in their convictions actually work to support the Fellowship while others bring buck loads of water to extinguish its fire. I wonder why you’ve chosen the former?

Elena, you have this idea that if you make enough noise about violation of your rights the US Government is going to shut the Fellowship down. It’s an illusion, founded on some erroneous ideas you have about your Constitutional rights and some erroneous ideas you have about the United States Constitution and United States government. It’s not my fault you are thinking in terms of “natural law” which hasn’t been part of American legal thinking for generations. I’m just bringing you the news. In this respect I am walking patiently with you and pointing out your illusions to you, much as I have done in the past with Lacuna Piñata.

You seem to think that if I do not agree with you, I must be against you, and I must be a Fellowship supporter. Anyone who reads my posts knows this is ridiculous. Don’t shoot me, I’m only the messenger.

265. harryhindsight - December 20, 2008

Daily Mostlywhack,

“I’ll go to a few of the coming events; is there anyone you want me to say hello to?”

D.C., Yesri and me are a bit confused now. I thought you had to have a special invitation to the coming events and that the coming events were usually before and after dinners and meetings? I heard also that YOU get paid to come at these events, depending on where you come and who with and whether there’s any poohpooh included ?
Please do say hello to all the Russian boys and say from me that although they’ve all long ago realized what a pathetic miscreant uncle Bob actually is, a quick poop on the teacher is better than a year in Siberia.

266. Jomo Piñata - December 20, 2008

Elena,

I imagine that you are presenting me with this text because you find it defendable,

Not so. I presented you with that text because you are talking about having certain rights and stating that the Fellowship violated them. The text I presented to you talks about the same kind of rights you are talking about. The text on that page begins:

“Myth: Rights are natural, inalienable, God-given and self-evident.

Fact: Rights are social constructs. ”

Then the author explores the notions of natural rights, inalienable rights, God-given rights, and self-evident rights. That analysis is worth reading and thinking about. That’s what I encourage you to do.

267. Jomo Piñata - December 20, 2008

Elena,

What rights should be is hardly obvious.
________Hardly obvious to whom?

I think you don’t understand the English idiomatic expression, “hardly obvious.” “Hardly obvious” means “not obvious, not even remotely obvious, so far from being obvious that it is not even capable of being obvious.”

I think your misunderstanding of this preliminary comment afflicts your entire reading of the text that follows and sends you off in the wrong direction.

268. Jomo Piñata - December 20, 2008

Elena,

I wonder what positive law is if it is not rooted in human beings?

Positive law is rooted in “governmental enactments.”

It used to be that judges thought they were discovering the law, in the same way that scientists discover the principles of nature. That’s the whole idea of “natural law.” Nobody believes that anymore.

Now, American courts apply law made by legislatures, called “statutes,” law made by administrative tribunals, called “regulations,” and law made by courts, called case law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_positivism

269. tatyana - December 20, 2008

DC

“If a person has the right attitude and values something enough it often happens that they attract what they want.”
Yes, I remember this saying, but I did not verify it. There are also common sense and responsibilities – that I did verify, but slowly after I already was bankrupt.

“It’s an illusion that we “make” money.”
This is an interesting attitude. Some smart sales person should use this line. Also can add “It’s an illusion that you have money. It’s an illusion that you spend money.” I was just thinking recently about how many times I was following the suggestion to think that C influence controls A influence and the reason it gives us money so we can spend it on the School! That is a very clever hypnoses. For some reason C Influence never gave me enough money to go the Christmas dinner with Robert. I wonder why. They probably already decided long ago to release me, so they did not waste their precious time on me and instead were hovering in Galleria helping you be present.

“I’ll go to a few of the coming events; is there anyone you want me to say hello to?”
This is funny. How are you going to do that? “Good evening, dear X, Tatyana from the blog wanted to send hello and her love to you.” Let me think about it. Maybe I can also give you a card?

270. Jomo Piñata - December 20, 2008

Elena,

I wonder what positive law is if it is not rooted in human beings? Is it that American Courts do not care about humans like Robert Burton?

No. Judges are human beings whom the Government gives power to decide how law applies to human beings. But there are limits on the power. If there is enough evidence to charge someone with a crime, the prosecutor brings the charge and the judge ensures the trial is conducted fairly. In a civil lawsuit the judge ensures that the person bringing the lawsuit really has enough evidence of wrongdoing under the law as courts apply it to proceed before a jury.

American judges don’t act on matters that are not brought before them. Judges in other countries have an inquisitorial role–they open and conduct inquiries. Not in the United States.

It’s not that American courts don’t care about leeches and exploiters. It’s that they have no power to do anything about them unless and until there is a legal case. And that depends upon how facts line up with “positive law.”

271. sharon - December 20, 2008

This whole discussion on US Constitutional Rights raises a question for me – what are the rights of non-US citizens? Can they be, for example, deported if they exercise free speech by complaining of sexual harrassment or slavery? Can they sue in a US court? etc.

272. God Laughing - December 20, 2008

206 Susan Zanos

Great post Susan! I try to answer you as honestly as I can.
I have always felt an outsider, as a kid, a teenager
and then as a grown up.
I dabbled in the esoteric, read theosophy folks like Blavatsky,
used the Tarot cards and I Ching, traveled to remote places
with not to much false personally going on, trying to find meaning
to life, my life and where it could take me.

I stayed away from organized religion…anything cultish for fear of losing my independence.

Then I fell in love, the person was a seeker like me
and soon after we met he found the 4th way, then the FOF.

I refused to be part of it, and managed to do so for a year or more. The strange thing was the FOF changed him for the better, he grew up, let go of childish things became the man I knew that was in there somewhere.

I liked it when he came home from meetings, and brought a special energy home, his attempts of being present stayed with him and filtered into the house.

I had second thoughts, this man was changing fast, and for the better while I remained the same, same lost feeling, stupid habits like smoking, buffering reality with the occasional joint, living kind of aimless.

I joined. And I was sold. I loved the focus on culture, beauty, art, Goethe, Shakespeare, the Greeks etc. The people were interesting,
and suddenly I was traveling all over Europe staying in nice places
for next to nothing, visiting the best of the best in architecture and art galleries

I opened up emotionally and I felt I belonged, my subconscious search for a brotherhood, a group of like -minded-individuals had ended.The bait was swallowed.

Until I began the feel the restrictions, the rigid adherence to dress code, the repetitiveness of meetings, the boring form of the school-every teaching house looked the same, the teacher became the Beloved teacher, the teaching payments, the endless selling harrasements at any event, the arrival of Asaf who replaced the open question approach with cardboard wisdom, a teaching that lost all meaning, the forbidden fruits, …Adyashanti etc that were sooo verboten and resulted in being expelled, and then I found out about the boys…why they were there, why so many, the sad story of the boys who were dismissed when they refused to have sex with RB, and were put on a plane asap to Russia or where ever

I lost all respect, and was mentally in a rut.
It took time to pick up the courage to let go of my image of utopia, and to call it quits.

I am for ever grateful for the existence of the blog, the Greater Fellowship and for all the friends who are out and are still my friends, who helped me escape from what I now believe is a cult

Now Life is good, life is an adventure, and I am glad that I have taken that road all those years ago.
I am where I am, who I am….. because of it.
Hell is truth seen to late, but I think that all us who has left
saw the truth about the FOF in good time.

273. whalerider - December 20, 2008

susan:
Thanks for bringing a personal touch to the blog.

For myself, it was a question of maintaining healthy narcissism and high self-esteem versus giving up myself to Burton’s unhealthy narcissism out of low self esteem.

It seemed apparent to me that to stay in a high intensity/high control cult for long periods of time one must give up the sense of one’s self and allow the cult to control the first line of work.

I believe what happens in that self-less state is that one enters into a “trance-like” state of absorption. One is literally absorbed by the form of the cult.

A characteristic of trance states is time distortion. Time seems to pass quickly when you are kept busy. Years can go by until one day the bullshit factor becomes so great (or Rhino Poop factor, as the case may be) that one finally wakes up from the cult trance, the first line of work reignites, and one takes action out of self-interest.

I stayed in the cult only as long as I felt it benefited my evolution, or in other words, as long as the three lines of work were fair and balanced.

At the time I left, there were no absurd exercises like not eating your food at a Burton dinner. The rhino poop factor was minimal, the prediction dates were forthcoming, the Winery was growing, and the prospects favorable for work on myself in a community of like-minded people.

Then when I found myself becoming sexually exploited by Burton right at the same time Miles left the cult, and my inner conflict began to significantly increase. I felt my first line becoming compromised and my freedom of choice became limited.

I could stay on salary, and continue to allow myself to be exploited by Burton, allowing him to be in control of my personal friction. I could request to go abroad in hopes of becoming a center director. I could leave salary, in which case the leeching payments would significantly increase, forcing me to find high paying work that might not be satisfying and fulfilling (right livelihood). Or I could listen to my conscience as Miles had, leave the cult, take control of my own personal friction.

I felt that the “three lines of work” were a mirror for life: 1) efforts related to my own development, 2) efforts related to my family and 3) efforts related to my community.

I no longer required an impending Armageddon to provide intensity in my life. Now I have all the intensity I needed just watching Amy Goodman’s, “Democracy Now!” news program, raising my two children, and being true to myself.

Hell is feeling disempowered in the face of evil behavior.

274. elena - December 20, 2008

Jomo Pinata,

Thank you for your answers. As I said before I admire and respect the fact that there’s a level on which you know the Fellowship is criminal. In another level you cannot hear what I am saying and will not address issues like the one I already mentioned that the Fellowship presented itself as a Fourth Way School in the tradition of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and it would be very easy to prove that it did not hold up to that image, ever.

Since I am not employing you or paying you I can not ask you to answer and am happy to simply thank you immensely for anything you’ve offered in relation to the legal aspects of the discussion. I also much continue to admire and be grateful for the support you give to people who leave. We simply seem to go in very different directions at some point and that’s all right too.

Agreeing with me is not essential, the discussion is what matters because we can all learn from each other’s limitations. Thank you again.

275. nigel harris price - December 20, 2008

273 whalerider

I have waited a few years for the right time and person to whom to offer this beautiful line from (in my mind) Shakespeare’s greatest history:-

“Self love, my liege, is not so vile a sin as self neglecting” (Henry V).

May I be your Dauphin (dolphin – another cetacean – evolution’s experiment in higher communication) in giving this to you, my dear friend…..Nigel.

276. Susan Zannos - December 20, 2008

Dragon’s (260) discussion of the Milgram experiments, and Burger’s reinactment, is very much to the point for me. Recently I read a definition of the “authoritarian personality.” (It might have been on the blog–I’m not sure where I saw it.) Basically it said that authoritarians are not only those who want to control others, but are also those who are only comfortable being controlled. It was an AHA moment for me, an important piece of the puzzle I’ve been trying to put together. And I think some of us like it both ways, that is to have a niche in a hierarchal structure in which we receive clear directives from those in power above and in our turn impose those edicts on those of lesser power.
Again, I don’t think think this applies to all students, but I don’t think I was alone in finding a sense of security in roles such as center director or travelling teacher, in getting a rush from being chosen to read the little cards in a meeting…(excuse me, these memories actually bring on nausea). Everything was clear. I knew exactly what was right and what was wrong and how to enforce what was right and punish what was wrong. Hot damn, I was sort of good at it.
Curiously enough, it turned out that Ouspensky was right, for me at least, when he said that there was one guarantee in the work, that you would see yourself. I certainly wasn’t a fast learner, but to some degree it did happen and what I was seeing was not something I wanted to see: a cold mean old woman. That wasn’t what I’d had in mind initially.
Well, even Milgram’s perpetrators, some of them, drew the line somewhere, and I finally did too. It is curious how uncomforable it is now to live outside of any clear hierarchial structure, to know that I don’t have a clue, in very many areas and situations, what right action might be, and even that the coldness and meanness have become so habitual that they didn’t go away just because the cult structure did. Old habits die hard if at all. Trying to change them has the price tag of a continuing high anxiety level that frequently shades into immobilizing panic as I try to navigate the uncharted chaos of a madly dysfunctional family (what did I think I would come back to?) and a job threatened by the collapsing economy.
But thanks for listening, and thanks, Aline and Dragon and others, for your postings. And as we stagger into the dreaded (by me) HOHOHO season, I hope it is a good one for you all.

277. Jomo Piñata - December 20, 2008

In another level you cannot hear what I am saying and will not address issues like the one I already mentioned that the Fellowship presented itself as a Fourth Way School in the tradition of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and it would be very easy to prove that it did not hold up to that image, ever.

Let’s assume that this is true. I don’t think it’s necessarily true, but let’s assume that it is, and let’s also assume that you feel defrauded by what we are assuming. There’s still a problem. Wikipedia gives a good summary of the elements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

Common law fraud has nine elements: (1) representation of an existing fact; (2) its materiality; (3) its falsity; (4) the speaker’s knowledge of its falsity; (5) the speaker’s intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff; (6) plaintiff’s ignorance of its falsity; (7) plaintiff’s reliance on the truth of the representation; (8) plaintiff’s right to rely upon it; and (9) consequent damages suffered by plaintiff. Most jurisdictions in the United States require that each element be proved with clear, cogent, and convincing evidence (very probable evidence) to establish a claim of fraud. The measure of damages in fraud cases is to be computed by the “benefit of bargain” rule, which is the difference between the value of the property had it been as represented, and its actual value. Special damages may be allowed if shown proximately caused by defendant’s fraud and the damage amounts are proved with specificity.

The one that’s troublesome is “plaintiff’s right to rely on the representation.” I.e., “the organization represented it was a fourth way school, and I relied on that representation.” No one can prove they had a right to rely on that representation.

Think about it. If a used car salesman tells you it’s a “great car,” you don’t rely on it; you take it to get checked out by a mechanic. If you’re buying a business, you hire financial professionals to go over the books and give you an opinion about the value. You don’t rely on the owner’s representation that it’s a going concern that will make you a lot of money. Somehow we understand that that’s “puffery.”

Same with the Fellowship. Somewhere we relied on representations that we were not entitled to rely on and that no one with his critical thinking skills intact would have relied on. “An esoteric school with direct connection to higher forces.” But rely we did.

However, IF, through specific and identifiable techniques, including deception, our ability to think critically was interfered with, so that we lacked the ability to critically evaluate the information, THAT may be a tort–a civil wrong for which the law provides a remedy. That’s the tort that Ford Greene’s “Molko and Leal” case created in California.

Personally, I think that deceptive techniques were utilized in recruitment of prospective students into the Fellowship, and I think that some people may have the right to sue for damages. Those who left the Fellowship within the last three years and want to find out whether they may have a remedy should talk to a California lawyer.

278. Jomo Piñata - December 20, 2008

[Can] non-US citizens . . . be, for example, deported if they exercise free speech by complaining of sexual harrassment or slavery?

It’s the Government that deports non-citizens. I am hearing the implication that you think it’s the Fellowship that deports non-citizens. So I’m not really getting your question.

Also I’m hearing that you think people have a Constitutional right to exercise free speech without consequence. They don’t. They have the right to not be punished BY GOVERNMENT for speaking out. But their private employer can fire them in most places.

Can they sue in a US court? etc.

Depends who they’re suing and for what.

279. sharon - December 21, 2008

“I am hearing the implication that you think it’s the Fellowship that deports non-citizens.”

No, I meant the Government. For example, say the Gov. scrutinizes foreign men who complain about RB and decide they are personae non grata in the US (for whatever weird reason).

280. Yesri Baba - December 21, 2008

Basically it said that authoritarians are not only those who want to control others, but are also those who are only comfortable being controlled. It was an AHA moment for me, an important piece of the puzzle I’ve been trying to put together. And I think some of us like it both ways, that is to have a niche in a hierarchal structure in which we receive clear directives from those in power above and in our turn impose those edicts on those of lesser power.

It is curious how uncomforable it is now to live outside of any clear hierarchial structure, to know that I don’t have a clue, in very many areas and situations, what right action might be, and even that the coldness and meanness have become so habitual that they didn’t go away just because the cult structure did. Old habits die hard if at all. Trying to change them has the price tag of a continuing high anxiety level that frequently shades into immobilizing panic as I try to navigate the uncharted chaos of a madly dysfunctional family.

——-

My question is:

Isn’t trying to change the habits, and the judgement that it is a “madly dysfunctional family” coming from the authoritative personality?

How deep and varied and unconscious in all of us is this authoritarian relationship to our life.

Hey it’s Christmas, let’s keep giving the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving.
Or maybe we can see it for what it is- a hand me down from the past.
I don’t think the habits need to be changed. I think you just need to look at them.
But hey I’m dysfunctional.

(hope the boss doesn’t get mad about this)

281. elena - December 21, 2008

Susan, God Laughing and Dragon, wonderful posts, thank you. Thank you all.

Dragon, we’ve looked at this issue before on the blog. That experiment also appeared in a political film called Icarus many years ago. If people could take responsibility for that fact we would realize how seriously dangerous the Fellowship is because everything that goes on inside is based exactly on that phenomenon. Members are simply cruel to each other. That is why the few friends they have they hold on to as if they were a saving float but the more they get comfortable in the little groups of their particular friends, the more cruel they can be to the people outside of the circle. The different circles of ‘friends’ all depend on their connections to Robert and if there is no connection, you simply don’t exist in their spectrum.

Thank you Jomo, that sounds a little more promising. Let the head sleep over it.

282. Jomo Piñata - December 21, 2008

Sorry, Sharon, I don’t know.

283. elena - December 21, 2008

“However, IF, through specific and identifiable techniques, including deception, our ability to think critically was interfered with, so that we lacked the ability to critically evaluate the information, THAT may be a tort–a civil wrong for which the law provides a remedy. That’s the tort that Ford Greene’s “Molko and Leal” case created in California.”

If you want to evolve you need to come and live in the heart of the School close to the Teacher. This is not fourth way and it led to many members in Oregon House separating from society, working and living only in the Fellowship developing a closed community. The closed community is already not the Fourth Way and it is the most dangerous aspect of the Fellowship Cult. It is LIFE within that closed community what is so deceptive. The enablers realized that it worked and developed specific and identifiable techniques unconsciously of course for consciousness would not allow for it. The subtleties of life in Renaissance, that is where the sickness is most virulent.

Give up your children. This is definitely not Fourth Way. That was Robert’s personal agenda.

The six billion dead people on the planet. Not Fourth Way.

Keep thinking elena and hopefully all, make it clear and identifiable by anyone who comes close to it. There are thousands of examples, they just need the structure on which to be organized.

284. elena - December 21, 2008

Sharon,

If I were one of the boys I would certainly be afraid of that, wouldn’t you?

When I told the officer that I had separated because I was in a Cult and was being abused and my husband supported the Cult, he quickly denied me the citizenship. The judge in the court was a lot more human than that but when it got too human he became uncomfortable!

285. nigel harris price - December 21, 2008

To elena and sharon and all

I never knew (in my time in the FOF) it was that SICK!…..Nigel.

286. peter - December 21, 2008

Dear Daily Cardiac,

Have a nice christmas brother/sister!
I am not a member of your polydeitical group
but still I wish you the best.

When you go to an ‘event’
and you sit or stand around your polygamical teacher …

… please remember that he is only a fantom in you own mind

Nothing more but also nothing less.

Maybe it exactly this need for a father figure
that stands between you and the realization
of your own divine nature?

Just a thought.

Wishing you well,

Peter

*
**
*

287. nigel harris price - December 21, 2008

286 peter

Sorry to ‘butt in’ on your post, but I go along with your thinking in as much as we are all ‘Children of the Universe’…..Nigel.

288. Daily Cardiac - December 21, 2008

Tatyana – 269:

DC – “I’ll go to a few of the coming events; is there anyone you want me to say hello to?”

Tatyana – “This is funny. How are you going to do that? “Good evening, dear X, Tatyana from the blog wanted to send hello and her love to you.” Let me think about it. Maybe I can also give you a card?”

I’ll just give them a hug or a smile, be present and think of you at the same time.

289. nigel harris price - December 21, 2008

288 Daily Cardiac

“Sarcasm is th lowest form of wit”. C’mon – rise to the bait…..Nigel.

290. peter - December 21, 2008

289 nigel,

‘Sorry to ‘butt in’ on your post, but I go along with your thinking in as much as we are all ‘Children of the Universe’…..Nigel.’

I know it sound silly, but that is what I really think. Anyway. My best wishes for you to Nigel, have a nice christmas.

Peter

291. elena - December 21, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

Have you now been instructed to play your last show card? The card of presence and love? Will you soon start calling us “My Darlings” like your teacher? And pretend you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing?

People are so easily deluded that some here might still buy that crap after three decades of believing in it. It’s a good thing that your hair is too long to hide the wolf inside other wise some would start patting you like a sheep dog.

292. nigel harris price - December 21, 2008

To Peter, especially, but to all who need a little ‘strengthening’ in this season…..Nigel.

Desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others,
even to the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs,
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.
And whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

Max Ehrman

(c) Max Ehrman 1926

293. elena - December 21, 2008

The following is taken from Political Corruption but the analogy is clear enough for religious corruption. Almost all the conditions adapt to the Fellowship of Friends Cult.

Conditions favorable for corruption

Some[who?] argue that the following conditions are favorable for corruption:

1.Information deficits

2.Lack of government transparency.

Lacking freedom of information legislation. The Indian Right to Information Act 2005 has “already engendered mass movements in the country that is bringing the lethargic, often corrupt bureaucracy to its knees and changing power equations completely.”[9]

_________A haven for Cults disguised as Churches that don’t need to present their agendas clearly. If these things are required from others why not from Churches?

3.Contempt for or negligence of exercising freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

4.Weak accounting practices, including lack of timely financial management.

5. Lack of measurement of corruption. For example, using regular surveys of households and businesses in order to quantify the degree of perception of corruption in different parts of a nation or in different government institutions may increase awareness of corruption and create pressure to combat it. This will also enable an evaluation of the officials who are fighting corruption and the methods used.

______In the Fellowship the lack of measurement of corruption is related to the many members who were ordered to leave without others knowing the reasons. No member of a Church should be “thrown out” without trial because the commitment to a Church is a life commitment and the Church must prove the abuses of the member against it or the member the abuses of the Church against him or her. The nature of a religious commitment is very different to the nature of a comercial transaction.

6. Tax havens which tax their own citizens and companies but not those from other nations and refuse to disclose information necessary for foreign taxation. This enables large scale political corruption in the foreign nations.[10]

________The many centers.

7. Lacking control over and accountability of the government.
8. Democracy absent or dysfunctional. See illiberal democracy.
9. Lacking civic society and non-governmental organizations which monitor the government.

10. An individual voter may have a rational ignorance regarding politics, especially in nationwide elections, since each vote has little weight.

___________In the context of the Fellowship this translates in the fact that no individual member has any power and is quickly dismissed as “not being there to change the World” but to “submit” to the Teacher.

11. Weak rule of law.
__________Robert Burton’s unlimited power over the members.

Weak legal profession.

Lawlessness and any adherente to it being attacked as “Feminine Dominance” leading to extreme abuse.
12. Weak judicial independence.

13. Lacking protection of whistleblowers.

14.Lack of benchmarking, that is continual detailed evaluation of procedures and comparison to others who do similar things, in the same government (____Churches) or others, in particular comparison to those who do the best work. The Peruvian organization Ciudadanos al Dia has started to measure and compare transparency, costs, and efficiency in different government departments in Peru. It annually awards the best practices which has received widespread media attention. This has created competition among government agencies in order to improve.[11]

14. Opportunities and incentives
Individual officials routinely handle cash, instead of handling payments by giro or on a separate cash desk — illegitimate withdrawals from supervised bank accounts are much more difficult to conceal.
Public funds are centralized rather than distributed. For example, if $1,000 is embezzled from local agency that has $2,000 funds, it easier to notice than from national agency with $2,000,000 funds. See the principle of subsidiarity.
Large, unsupervised public investments.
Sale of state-owned property and privatization.
Poorly-paid government officials.
Government licenses needed to conduct business, e.g., import licenses, encourage bribing and kickbacks.

15. Long-time work in the same position may create relationships inside and outside the government which encourage and help conceal corruption and favoritism. Rotating government officials to different positions and geographic areas may help prevent this.

____________14 and 15 are the main conditions of the enablers who gave up their jobs and depended on the Fellowship income.
Favoritism is the only thing that moves Robert’s aids. If you support him blindly he’ll help you, if you question anything and insist on the questioning he’ll make sure you’re thrown out, chastised or ostracized.

16. Costly political campaigns, with expenses exceeding normal sources of political funding.

_________In the context of the Fellowship they were not costly only economically but people were psychologically pushed to inflate Robert form the Charlatan that he is into a Jesus Christ stature.

17. Less interaction with officials reduces the opportunities for corruption. For example, using the Internet for sending in required information, like applications and tax forms, and then processing this with automated computer systems. This may also speed up the processing and reduce unintentional human errors. See e-Government.
A windfall from exporting abundant natural resources may encourage corruption.[12] (See Resource curse)

___________No second line work, or “institutionalized” channels of interaction between the members or the members and the Teacher.

18. War and other forms of conflict correlate with a breakdown of public security.

_________Using the propaganda that people are in danger of “life people’s mechanicality and sleep” and under the “law of accident” if they are not in the Fellowship, misusing the System for the benefit of the Cult.
19. Social conditions

____________It’s the social conditions in a Cult that bind the people so solidly. The theories are not nearly as powerful as the actual everyday practices. It’s the practices that render people “impotent”.

20.Self-interested closed cliques and “old boy networks”.
Family-, and clan-centered social structure, with a tradition of nepotism being acceptable.

Areas with high religious attendance tend to have higher rates of corruption, due to the possible cultural aspects from that religion. For example Islamic nations, and the Bible Belt in the US have high rates of corruption.[13]
A gift economy, such as the Chinese guanxi or the Soviet blat system, emerges in a Communist centrally planned economy.
In societies where personal integrity is rated as less important than other characteristics (by contrast, in societies such as 18th and 19th century England, 20th century Japan and post-war western Germany, where society showed almost obsessive regard for “honor” and personal integrity, corruption was less frequently seen)[citation needed]

__________The powerful “friendships” that allowed for some to be given opportunities and many to be left out.

21. Lacking literacy and education among the population.

22. Frequent discrimination and bullying among the population.

___________The same separating values common in the different cultures are practiced in the Fellowship cult. People are discriminated because of their social and National, racial or academic backgrounds in different degrees.

294. whalerider - December 21, 2008

nigel:
Thanks for the wonderful Shakespeare quote. How apt for current followers!

Your reference to dolphins had personal synchronicity with me, too.

Part of my journey toward healing and self-empowerment after the Fellowship of Friends (AKA Pathway to Presence) lead me to work with a local shaman. They believe that people who feel disempowered or depressed are “de-spirited” or lack a power animal and spirit guide. The Dolphin became mine.

In one session he ritually blew the Dolphin’s spirit into the top of my head, and I began to spot Dolphin images everywhere as shocks, just like I used to see the number 44. In another session I met my inner spirit guide. The whole process was extremely useful in that it taught me to look inside myself for inner guidance and insight rather than give away my power to others.

Then, after doing some healing work around my father who lived next to a canal in Florida and knew nothing of this, one day out of the blue he called me to say that “the canals must be getting cleaner, the other day I saw a dolphin swim right by my dock.” He happened to take a photo and sent it to me.

295. elena - December 21, 2008

Jomo Piñata,

Hi Jomo, many thoughts come from your posts, here is the beginning:

Jomo: Elena, you have this idea that if you make enough noise about violation of your rights the US Government is going to shut the Fellowship down.

______The short term results of exposing the Cult do not worry me. It might take a lifetime but this a fight that has to be given by people today. If we make enough noise many people will hear and the Governments of the world will be pressured to take action, the consciousness of the people about the problem will be raised.

Jomo: It’s an illusion, founded on some erroneous ideas you have about your Constitutional rights and some erroneous ideas you have about the United States Constitution and United States government.

______The Spirit of the Constitution is on the side of the well being of the people and if some people have changed the Constitution to benefit themselves they will loose the benefits and the Constitution will continue to be changed.

Elena: “I imagine that you are presenting me with this text because you find it defendable”

Jomo: Not so.

______What is the point of presenting a text that you do not stand by?

Jomo: I presented you with that text because you are talking about having certain rights and stating that the Fellowship violated them. The text I presented to you talks about the same kind of rights you are talking about. The text on that page begins:

“Myth: Rights are natural, inalienable, God-given and self-evident.

Fact: Rights are social constructs. ”

__________The text I understand represents the liberals interpretation? It has its own very particular position and agenda and pretends to discredit other positions with equally questionable arguments which I questioned already.

Text: “What rights should be is hardly obvious.”
Elena: Hardly obvious to whom?”

_______I always look at who is writing what and what is the interest and position of the writer because it is the interests of the person that determine their position and consciousness in relation to the issue. People’s rights are an aspect of consciousness or The Consciousness that each human being has the right to be respected, protected and helped by the society he or she belongs to. The Earth is our common ground and we are now, in fact, all human beings in a Human society no matter what nationality we belong to. People from one Nation might kill people from another Nation convinced that they have more rights than the others but that is simply abuse of their own nature and a corruption of Consciousness. This happens in any level of so called separations amongst people with the excuse that they are socially, religiously, nationally, racially, academically or economically “better” than the other. Ahundred percent of all abuses in our world today come from the conviction of the abuser that they are justified in their abuse because they are “superior”. They think they have the “authority” because they are “American” or from a “Developed Country,” “richer”, “white”, “educated”, or “Religiously more advanced” and hold a “divine” stature like Robert Burton and Girard Haven in the Fellowship of Friends Cult. Or that they are “superior” because they’ve got the guns to kill you like it is so common in the criminals of underdeveloped countries.

These “delusional separations” reveal the state of Consciousness of the human being of the past. Today we have the option to understand the Unity and Wholeness that does not allow for such separations. The way people relate to the World, The physical World, as in the land itself and the people, expresses their state of consciousness in relation to a consciousness of Unity and Wholeness. Our lives are determined by our personal limitations to the understanding of Unity and Wholeness in no matter what sphere of practice. Many people around the world today are already working in this direction in different areas of life. Without the understanding of that unity, the problems the world faces today cannot be resolved, beginning with the climatological conditions of the Earth itself or its depressive “Mood”. The problems are too big for one individual to solve them; each individual must solve all the problems within himself and in his social interaction. The lack of unity, the fact that the individual does not perceive his or her own personal integrity as a “whole” dis-empowers him or her to perceive the integrity of all human beings and the Earth itself as an aspect of one and the same cosmos.

When one human being moves, the whole world moves with that will. The individual needs to recover his personal integrity to understand the it is his will that determines his life and his life determines our lives. The “victim-hood” mentality that we cannot do anything to ACT against Cults because everything in the American Constitution is against our possibilities is just that: a mentality of victim-hood and a conviction that the world is static and that we don’t count, just like in the Fellowship. I accept to lose but not to not fight. No life is worth living if a man or a woman cannot stand for what his or her time demands. Every life is confronted with the reality of the times sooner or later and once one understands the bull one is facing there is no other honourable option but to struggle with it. Death is everyone’s prize, it is what we die for, live for, what matters.

Thank you for allowing me to remember and express these things that do not mean to bind you in any way. Freedom to choose is the only real freedom and no one can choose for anyone else. When that happens, it is simply of no value to evolution.

296. The FOFion - December 21, 2008

FOF holds Special Showing of Kung Fu Panda

OREGON HOUSE, Calif. (ARK) — Several thousand former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends (FOF) are gathering today at 3:00 p.m. Pacific time for a special showing of the hit motion picture Kung Fu Panda.

To accomodate the expected onslaught of traffic, Rice’s Crossing Road has been transformed into an eight-lane boulevard with palm trees lining the center divide.

“It will be rather cold and muddly outside in Shakespeare Meadow, but we believe this is an important film for all to see,” said the event’s organizer, Tai Lung, a fierce tiger warrior with an English accent. “There is especially one moment in the film that I recommend all to see, when Po finally unfurls the sacred scroll to find the secret of life. I believe there’s a lesson here for all former and current members of the FOF.”

Po is the main character and hero in the film, a chubby and warm-hearted panda bear with an inflated self-image. He eventually must battle Tai Lung to save his people.

After the film’s showing, Po will join Tai Lung and Shifu to sign autographs at the Galleria. Current FOF members must pay $2,000 per autograph. Former members are not required to pay anything.

“They are paying in a different way,” Tai Lung said. “They are paying for rent, retirement, food, yoga lessons, college-level classes for career development and personal enrichment, paying for the children’s education and health care, reading books such as ‘I Am That’ and so on.”

—–

The FOFion is a non-profit media organization dedicated to its own secret agenda. For previous articles, see post 146 on this page.

297. The FOFion - December 21, 2008

post 145

298. nigel harris price - December 21, 2008

294 whalerider

You see – we can be GOOD for one another…..Nigel.

299. dragon - December 21, 2008

The FOFion

Great! Go on with that!

300. dragon - December 21, 2008

For Daily Cardiac and all believers of whatever:

Please try the trick with the cards!

http://www.simeonmagic.com/

301. dragon - December 21, 2008

Please:

Click here to see Simeon’s Cave of Magic

302. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - December 21, 2008

#276: Great post Susan. Thanks.

303. fofblogmoderator - December 21, 2008

Sorry comments are closed for this entry

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