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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 57 November 30, 2008

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

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1. Old Fish in the Sea - November 30, 2008

56-279:X-Ray

In 1975, while still in college, a man invited me over to his house for dinner. Dr. A. was considered brilliant, a physics graduate from Princeton and a successful professor. My friends thought he was weird so I went to dinner with my guard up.

Before dinner. he sat me across from his desk. Clearly he had an agenda but what was it? He asked me about my future. I explained that I was worried – Did not know what I wanted – Was afraid that I did not have any real skills with which to support myself.

He calmed me. Told me that I would attract something good. Told me that I need not ever worry about such things. He quoted the sermon on the mount.

“Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them.”

He made jokes about Christianity and “getting to the top”. He was clearly somewhat free from what I would learn to call Feminine Dominance – at least relative to the others I knew at the time.

I still thought he was weird but I was also a little impressed. 6 months later I joined the Fellowship. He heard through a friend and asked why I joined. I reported back that I felt that most people tried to get to happiness by manipulating their environment, but that I felt that happiness was acquired by going there directly – by working on state, and that the 4th way provided a logical system for working on state.

He said this was a good reason to join but warned me that the problem with groups like this was that it was difficult to leave, and that for a group to be successful there had to be a direct connection between the leader and higher influence.

We never spoke again. I later learned he was a devotee of Da Free John.

The differences between his “school” and my “school” were not as great as we both probably thought. We both were relieved to step out of the main-stream madness. I think we both learned some things but stepped into another form of madness. We both had a mad leader.

Many of us have left the madness after giving a large part of our lives. I think it is appropriate to accept that we received something, as Dr. A. did from Da Free John. We moved from the “group think” of our society to another form of “group think”. Perhaps as a result we now understand this phenomenon in an unusual way: how easily it controls us, and how it affects everyone, causing them/us to worry, suffer, stopping us from seeking what our essence needs, and dictating the direction of our lives.

If we once saw the FOF as a real school, and now see it as just another cult, and we see how easily and foolishly we put our own good judgment on hold, and we see that freedom lies in a healthy balance between the ability to not always believe our thoughts while still valuing ourselves and our judgment as much as any other person’s. If we have the ability to step out of ‘the group think’ whether it comes from our friends, our society, or our family, then we have made substantial progress and the world becomes an exciting adventure and a different kind of love becomes possible.

Having gone through this psychological manipulation and left, I think we are a little more awake. While I hope we can still learn from others, we will never again fully trust anyone claiming to know. In this sense, we have taken responsibility for our own lives. Would we be further had we never joined?

Please read 56-279 from X-Ray.

2. dragon - November 30, 2008

300. elena

great fire dance!

3. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - November 30, 2008

Old fish said: “Having gone through this psychological manipulation and left, I think we are a little more awake. While I hope we can still learn from others, we will never again fully trust anyone claiming to know. In this sense, we have taken responsibility for our own lives. Would we be further had we never joined?”

I totally agree. For me this has been quite a ride. After leaving 15 years ago I went through a period of time where I didn’t seek out like minded people. I felt lonely for a long time and at times I still do. However, I have been opening in other ways. This past week the property I live at had a ‘tea party’ or ‘no alcohol party’.

This turned out to be a 4-hour sing a long with 30 people. At first I resisted and even thought of leaving, but I stayed through the entire night. There were Ho’oponopono songs and many other ancient songs from Hawaii followed by silence; then some Agape songs and again silence. Some poetry and again silence. This went on for four hours. It was Wednesday night and as India was experiencing its incredible suffering we sang healing songs. I only knew a few of the people at this event and none of the songs but I have to say years ago I would not have been emotionally open to what it had to offer.

This is not unique. We are not unique. I would suggest people just leaving to go out and explore all that this world has to offer. None of us have to feel we don’t belong anywhere, as all of us belong wherever we wish to go.

4. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - November 30, 2008

Here’s something I received today I thought might be appropriate:

‘Limited belief is like wearing blinders, because it only allows us to follow what we can imagine. Our future possibilities are not determined by what we’ve experienced, but if we don’t believe anything else is possible for us, we won’t be able to recognize opportunity when it comes. As spiritual beings, we can rise above the thoughts that come from our mind. We have the ability to control and change our thinking patterns to create the experience of life we choose to have. But we have to take the blinders off and allow for more possibilities than we can see or imagine and then accept that a block on one path only means that something better waits for us on another path. You can walk toward your future today without knowing exactly how it will unfold because you trust the universe’s infinite possibilities.’

5. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

Blog section 57

57 is the number of the bus I take down to Exmouth (out of the mouth?) on the way to visit my dad and stepmother on the Devon coast. I have difficulties with my dad over money dealings, since he has had a lifetime of accumulation of material wealth. But on this blog section I already find immense wisdom (wealth of the heart and intellect). Thank you all…..Nigel.

6. Ellen - November 30, 2008

X-Ray, thank you very much, page 56 – #279.

That one is a particularly close parallel illustrating the mechanicality of what we (as Fellowship students) experienced. Robert Burton, Da Free John, Ananda (Swami Kriyananda), Osho – Bhagwan Rajneesh, Ramesh Balsekar, Papaji?, Gangaji?, sex, power, and money, etc…

Strangely enough (to my understanding), all that stuff needn’t necessarily negate “spiritually awakening experiences”, but the impurity of the source ends up eating it’s own tail, leading a sincere seeker through a hall of mirrors.

Exit, stage left…

7. Old Fish in the Sea - November 30, 2008

Ellen 6: ‘Strangely enough (to my understanding), all that stuff needn’t necessarily negate “spiritually awakening experiences”, but the impurity of the source ends up eating it’s own tail, leading a sincere seeker through a hall of mirrors.’

Yes, and even stranger, there may be some that continue to profit from believing they are part of a “real school”. This feeling of being on a special mission can motivate further seeking – for a while.

But illusions are not awakening and for every one that profits, I guess there are 10 that are not really profiting any more (having received what they could), and 10 others that are being hurt or have been hurt, while they all support the life style of the guru. It took me 31 years before I was really ready to go. Some figure it out in a month. It does seem that we cannot hear some things until we are ready to hear them and this is particularly true if our self confidence and zest for life has been dampened by cult methods. It is so easy to be afraid of being on your own – afraid of the instinctive center taking over – afraid of losing friends while gaining a world full of ‘life people’.

My acquaintance from Da Free John’s group was right – Groups like this are very hard to leave. I wonder how he knew or if it was possible to for him to fathom how true his words are.. In fact, I wonder if any of us could leave without a little push from somewhere. It is so easy to put it off until the external forces change and we no longer have any motivation to leave, meanwhile feeling good that we overcame those I’s from the lower self.

8. ton - November 30, 2008

campfire song:

9. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

7 Old Fish in the Sea

For me, there was no ‘decision’ to leave. I was forced out financially and under a messy psychotic episode on my final ‘day of membership’. But I, also, as with others, had to come to terms with ‘life out here’. It took me 3 1/2 years of depression until I embarked on a Post Graduate Certificate of Education (failing due to becoming manic through over-stimulation with ideas) but knew that I could be a teacher ‘in the real world’. Now I have gained that privileged position in the adult education sector with my own precious metal craft teaching business – mutual respect with my students (it is actually impossible to mislead people who are creating physical things with their own hands – they respect you as a teacher, if you show them how to succeed, not ‘rubbish’ ideas like “consciousness is not functions”). It’s funny how these ‘gurus’ manage to get away with being charismatic, but unable to actually ‘do’ anything. Anyone lately asked REB to cook a meal?…..Nigel.

10. X-ray - November 30, 2008

Adi Da

In 1985-6 there were several lawsuits filed involving Adi Da Samraj (then Da Free John) and Adidam. There were also a number of other potential lawsuits during the 80’s that were settled out of court which involved more serious allegations against Adi Da than the lawsuits that actually got filed.

http://www.adidaarchives.org/1985_lawsuits_home.htm
———————————————————-
Robert Burton

First Lawsuit
Letter from Samuel Sanders 1984

Buzbee case – 1994

http://fellowshipoffriends.wikispaces.com/History
———————————————————
The outcome of the lawsuit, some three or so years later, was that it was settled out of court. That is, the Fellowship of Friends made a financial settlement payment to Samuel Sanders, and the case was over and would not go to trial. Samuel was not permitted to reveal the financial nature of the settlement, due to the “gag order” and Robert Burton told members of the Fellowship of Friends that the case was “dropped for lack of evidence,” or words to this effect, lying to the FOF membership.

http://www.geocities.com/stella_wirk/sandersltr.html
———————————————————

11. whalerider - December 1, 2008

Old Fish:
“…and even stranger, there may be some that continue to profit from believing they are part of a ‘real school’.”

…or profit from others believing..

“MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY. MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MORE MONEY.”
~ L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 9 March 1972, MS OEC 384

12. fofblogmoderator - December 1, 2008

8 & 10 are newly moderated

13. Bares Reposting - December 1, 2008

300/56. elena:
‘Where is then, the “violence” in the Fellowship of Friends Cult?’

Poverty is the worst form of violence.
Mahatma Gandhi

Fellowship Of Friends is designed to impoverish body and soul of its participants in order to aggrandize one person, in particular, or a few. This is the worst sort of violence.

– – – – – –

Old Fish in the Sea, this page honors you: Heinz; 57 kinds.

14. whalerider - December 1, 2008

“The square is a fundamental symbol, and once one understands it, one can understand all traditions. It represents the perfect equality of the four wordless (mindless) breaths.”
~Robert Burton, LaLa Land

An interesting occurrence happened to me today. After having given Burton’s square analogy such intense thought last night, I observed my awareness noting the square tiles in the shower this morning and other places during the day.

Now, I didn’t necessarily feel any more present than I normally am to experiencing myself in the shower or elsewhere; what I did notice whenever I saw a square in addition to being aware of myself was an awareness of Burton and his indoctrination techniques, thoughts that in fact took me out of the moment.

How convenient that squares (and numbers) can be seen everywhere!

What I noticed in myself was a reflexive, unconscious desire to find meaning in randomness, much in the same way I notice myself scanning the faces of people for familiarity when I am among groups of strangers while traveling, for instance.

Burton’s technique is to provide ‘esoteric’ meaning in the random occurrence of numbers and shapes, all magically referring back to him and his cult. It is a lie of the mind which alienates the soul.

I don’t believe the ‘shock’ of seeing symbols or numbers make one more ‘present’, in fact quite the opposite; this is an unconscious process that prevents one from fully experiencing the moment or other humans. Nor do I believe that earnestly repeating the 30 canine commands every time I see a square, 4 fingers, the number 4, the number 30, the number 44 or anything in that vein would make me more conscious, just more self- indoctrinated into cult thinking.

It’s like if you were in the market for a new car. You decide on a Honda, then suddenly you see Hondas everywhere which in reality were there all along. You certianly aren’t more present of yourself per se, but more present to an object outside yourself, or a ‘brand’, coupled with a feeling of awe and wonder which induces a trance-like state. You feel you are part of something special, the Honda club, especially if you don’t have enough self-esteem to begin with.

This is the depth of Burton’s narcissism virus. He has infected the minds of his followers and turned the world into a self-serving madhouse…the Call of the Loony Bin.

15. Daily Cardiac - December 1, 2008

It’s quite a stretch to compare the goings on described 56 – 279 with any form of behavior emanating from RB, as someone suggested.

A woman who was forced to perform oral sex as a child on her adult neighbor is ordered to perform oral sex on three of the Guru’s friends. And to add further insult is ordered to leave the house afterwards.

If this is true as it is described (which is another issue entirely, as people in the position of retelling such incidents rarely are without their own agendas) it seems like an act of garden variety sadism.

I am not taking up for Da Free John; I know nothing about him. What I am saying is that someone in his position inevitably has many stories told about him, by supporters and critics alike. And after a few go rounds it becomes increasingly hard to separate fact from fiction.

I don’t discount however the method of a valid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego/imaginary picture/aversions, as sex is one of man’s chief identifications. But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way.

And for a culture sprung from puritan origins sex is a major taboo. In schools it is a common occurrence for many taboos to be pierced.

16. Panorea - December 1, 2008

DC15

…I don’t discount however the method of a valid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego/imaginary picture/aversions, as sex is one of man’s chief identifications. But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way.

And for a culture sprung from puritan origins sex is a major taboo. In schools it is a common occurrence for many taboos to be pierced…

YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
It is really embarrassing reading this from a man of a certain age. You are to be pitied. You have no idea the damage that statements like yours can create to other human beings. You are just eliminating nonsense that you are unable to verify and practice. You live in a nightmare and you try to present it as a “method for awakening.”

GET A LIFE! TRY TO PRACTICE LOVE AND COMPASSION. LIFE IS TOO SHORT FOR NONSENSE LIKE THIS.

17. Yesri Baba - December 1, 2008

15 Charlie Manson Jr.

Fuck you, you garden variety maggot.

18. Draco - December 1, 2008

Here we go again. DC, Robert himself doesn’t claim that he is teaching his students when he has sex with them. He usually appeals to C Influence. “C Influence want you to have sex with me.” And if the “student” doesn’t want to have sex with the “teacher,” “you’re being a denying force to C Influence.”
Sometimes he makes a more specific justification: “You give me energy so I can give the School energy.”
Sometimes he makes comments like “I am very grateful for all the men who have been my lovers; it has really eased my suffering”.

19. Ellen - December 1, 2008

#15, Daily Cardiac

I don’t discount however the method of a valid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego/imaginary picture/aversions, as sex is one of man’s chief identifications.

And how would you determine the difference between a valid and an invalid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego, etc…? What qualities would you look for in the teacher wielding such a “tool”? Selflessness? Lack of personal interest or reward from the encounter? Objectivity? Openness to both males and females? Regardless of age or personal attraction?

But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way.

Excuse me? How would you assess what is sadistic, humiliating or demeaning? Are there objective standards? Are such standards at all related to who a person really is (in essence)? Or to the acquisition of the two year old (the personality)? Does essence decide one’s sexual orientation? Does essence gladly urinate on another person? Does essence naturally defecate on another person? Does essence force itself upon another? And does an enlightened teacher possess intimate knowledge of all the skeletons in every aspirant’s closet so as to avoid confusing his own self interests with those of his student’s?

Just asking how you understand the terms that you use here.

20. Panorea - December 1, 2008

DC15
…I don’t discount however the method of a valid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego/imaginary picture/aversions, as sex is one of man’s chief identifications. But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way….

Also, never, but never in a Prospective Student Meeting there has been any mentioning of Sex used as a Tool. It is not one of the WORK I’s, all conservative members of the FOF (and it is full of them!) close eyes and ears in the idea of Robert having Sex with his students. And what kind of sex? It is so pathetic and humiliating when you see them all walking into the Galleria and avoid raising their faces to look at the erased phallus on the ceiling.

SEX as a tool for awakening? That’s not why members join the FOF. Unhealthy, sadistic sex comes as a bonus. You either have no idea what is going on, or you are a complete idiot, or both…

21. veramente - December 1, 2008

I think DC (15) is pulling our leg.
He/she knows is saying absurd things like: SEX is a tool for awakening=Robert Burton will “persuade” you to suck your dick. 😦

DC wants to be here not for personal reasons as to always trying to win an argument, but also to undermine the veracity of the blog’s voices.
Let us not forget how Bush convinced half of the US or more that there were weapons of mass distruction (distraction?).

22. Wouldnt You Like To Know - December 1, 2008

But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way.

Dear Daily Heart Failure,

Besides reinforcing these words:

‘You either have no idea what is going on, or you are a complete idiot, or both…’
~20. Panorea

I would go on to tell you that there are many, yet untold here on the blog, true stories of ‘sadistic, humiliating or demeaning’ actions taken by both Robert Earl Burton, personally, and his band of flying monkeys, generally, that would demonstrate the depth and breadth of these institutionalized (read: formatory) patterns of the Fellowship of Friends,
over many years and decades, that make it clear just how sick a cult it can be. Your statement is directly proportional to the extent of your ignorance. (And, I am sure you have heard it said, ‘Ignorance is bliss.’) Or, you show just how much you are playing a shill game by being the front person for the Fellowship of Friends’ cruise on the river in North Africa that flows in the opposite direction of most major rivers on the planet, called denial (the Nile). Or, maybe you are just a liar.

The writer of this post could tell some of these stories, from personal experience, that extended well beyond the realm of this hot button topic of ‘kinky sex,’ so that there would be no mistake that the Fellowship of Friends embodies those characteristics of Robert Earl Burton’s being, and callousness, that would best be described, in polite company, as sadomasochistic. The extent to which the queen can behave in a polished and refined manner publicly, does, likewise, the complete opposite in a less revealed manner (hidden and/or private) behind the scenes. Perhaps, you, and your friends, have not been tested yet, personally?

Want to try me on this subject matter, Daily Card Trick? That is a simple enough question, to which you could simply answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to.

23. veramente - December 1, 2008

I meant: destruction (distraction?)
DC= distraction

24. nigel harris price - December 1, 2008

22 Wouldnt You Like To Know

It certainly makes me feel less guilty about having had ‘playful clandestine liaisons’ with ‘life ladies’. Thankfully, I am 52, and the urge to mate has diminished. Something about becoming older and wiser, even for a Solar!…..Nigel.

25. ton - December 1, 2008

Re: FOF shills: we’ve been ’round and ’round ad nauseum, with various postings and posings — # 15 DC sums up the agenda and intention of the shill:

“after a few go rounds it becomes increasingly hard to separate fact from fiction.”

26. Mick Danger - December 1, 2008

“Real Teachers are quite different.”
For another thing they don’t have shills defending their depravity,
and pimps & whores providing perverse entertainment.

27. dragon - December 1, 2008

23. veramente

to drive somebody (=his verbal weapons) to distraction or to love somebody to distraction?

I would carefully cuddle up DC’s verbal diarrhoea (with a dispenser).

Sometimes I wonder about DC but God moves in a mysterious way, his wonders to perform.

PS DC: SEXSEXSEXSEXSEXSEXSEX?SADOMASO?SEXSEXSEXSEXSEXSEX
the FOF Conscious SCHOOL is famous throughout the world for that performance in the art of seduction.

Try to air your brain, yes you can, you are capable of improvement:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k11_SD3ZAcw

28. Vena - December 1, 2008

“Also, never, but never in a Prospective Student Meeting there has been any mentioning of Sex used as a Tool. It is not one of the WORK I’s, all conservative members of the FOF (and it is full of them!) close eyes and ears in the idea of Robert having Sex with his students. And what kind of sex? It is so pathetic and humiliating when you see them all walking into the Galleria and avoid raising their faces to look at the erased phallus on the ceiling.”

The energy of the group of young men, Robert’s harem, that sits around him during receptions is one of the most alarming and telling representations of all that is sick and depraved in the Fellowship. These men are like zombies. They are full of shame and almost catatonic from depression and self loathing and to make it worse Robert sits there among them gloating and smiling. I believe he actually enjoys their misery. It must give him some perverse sense of power over them. If this is not insensitive and sadistic I don’t know what is. It is one of the final images that took me out of the madness. No one who really sees this situation could possibly stay.

Perhaps circulating a compilation of personal and graphic descriptions of sex with Robert written by the unfortunate victims would finally make people like Daily Cardiac see the absurd and ludicrious nature of their reasoning.

29. Jomo Piñata - December 1, 2008

It ain’t gonna come from his mind. It gonna come from his gut. Easy to argue with words on a screen. Hard to argue with gut-level revulsion.

30. whalerider - December 1, 2008

Daily Challenge:
“If this is true as it is described…it seems like an act of garden variety sadism.”

Sadism: “Abnormal behavior characterized by deriving sexual gratification from inflicting pain on others. More loosely, sadism refers to deriving any pleasure from inflicting pain. Named after the Marquis de Sade, a French author of the eighteenth century, whose works describe many sexual perversities.”

Interesting choice of words…”garden variety sadism”…just normal, ordinary, run-of-the-mill, everyday kind of behavior…the kind you might expect from your next door neighbor who babysits your kids on Saturday nights.

You seem to have been desensitized to the act of causing pain, humiliation, and suffering in another person for sexual gratification…which you justify as long as it’s for a “higher cause”.

Marquis de Sade…now there’s a dude who liked to “pierce taboos”. de Sade was “a proponent of extreme freedom (or at least licentiousness), unrestrained by morality, religion or law, with the pursuit of personal pleasure being the highest principle.”

…sounds like the Earl of Hurl, your cult leader, only cloaked in his perverse form of spirituality…i.e., ”don’t worry about the fallout or the future, just be present, repeat the 30 canine commands, and unzip your fly.”

31. lauralupa - December 1, 2008

need something to cool you off?
nothing better than another sweet turn on the merry-go-round

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gHK7XLBhsdM

32. lauralupa - December 1, 2008

Christmas Eve twenty fifty-three
On their knees
every little girl’s dream
A robot pony

Comb their soft and luscious nylon fur
Listen close hear their clockwork hearts work
Robot ponies

They feed on plastic bags
cut up like lettuce
right out of your hand
things get out of hand
unless you use one of twenty preset functions
To make them understand
To make them understand
You know best
You know best

Choose between seven pony types
Some like swimming
We made those babies airtight
Robot ponies

Children, parents spread the word around
Robot ponies take your granny out to
Robot Ponies Geriatric Ranch

Tennis, golf and basketball
these robot ponies do it all
They fucking love it all
They’ll tuck you in at night
and sing to you
You know best
You know best

Christmas eve Twenty fifty-three
Underneath every little girl’s tree
Robot Ponies

Comb their soft and luscious nylon fur
Listen close hear their clockwork hearts work
Robot ponies

Back to school two thousand fifty-four
new models on the way
nothings here to stay
Last year’s pony doesn’t mind
being left behind
being left behind

You know best
You know best

Laura Barrett

33. brucelevy - December 1, 2008

27. Vena

“Perhaps circulating a compilation of personal and graphic descriptions of sex with Robert written by the unfortunate victims would finally make people like Daily Cardiac see the absurd and ludicrous nature of their reasoning.”

Nice thought, but no. These stories have been here for a long time. Nothing penetrates the necrotic organ DC sees as his conscience. This is not a person, but simply an appendage to RB’s sick protoplasmic manifestation.

34. lauralupa - December 1, 2008

“I don’t discount however the method of a valid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego/imaginary picture/aversions, as sex is one of man’s chief identifications.” DC

“I am very grateful for all the men who have been my lovers; it has really eased my suffering”. Robert Burton

So back to the big question: is Robert Burton’s use of sex with his students selfish or altruistic?
god, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out at this point.
Just fucking listen to the man!

35. Mick Danger - December 1, 2008

Rock & Roll Casualty List for December:

John Lennon (1980)
(Sorry, lauralupa, two of the best are no longer with us).
(Damn Yoko, for convincing John that he didn’t need his bandmates).

Also birthday month for Keith Richards (“I’m doomed to live.”)

36. Kid Shelleen - December 1, 2008

37. fofblogmoderator - December 1, 2008

27 & 31 are newly moderated

38. Miguel - December 1, 2008

Elena, Grande, continua, por favor.

39. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - December 1, 2008

DC #15: ‘I don’t discount however the method of a valid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego/imaginary picture/aversions, as sex is one of man’s chief identifications. But this would not be done in a sadistic, humiliating or demeaning way.’

DC, obviously some former students have been humiliated and demeaned, as well as sadomized. I’m not sure where your justifications begin or end. Do you? To me this kind of statement is full of way to much relativity, which is what one needs to remain comfortable in the Fellowship.

40. Miguel - December 1, 2008

Robert, may be you don’t have much time left. Why you don’t do your best and open the eyes of your “rebaño”.

41. nigel harris price - December 1, 2008

O.K. Folks – how about sex energy and self-containment – influencing but not plundering, indulging or dominating. Like I said, I have many lady-friends but no sexual female partner. The time of my life, and how I would like to stay, is ‘Officer and a Gentleman’. The Sun and Sun-God, Apollo, manage to stay ‘within themselves’, but yet feed and heat the Planet Earth. REB abases himself and his male harem by his actions. NOBLE? – MY ASS!…..Nigel.

42. fofblogmoderator - December 1, 2008

38 & 40 are newly moderated

43. rock that boat - December 2, 2008

ROBERT BURTON ON SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE!
Well …..no…. but he is on youtube!
HAHAHAHA

Evul Guru

44. James Mclemore - December 2, 2008

31. lauralupa

Wow – thank you so much. I had never heard of her before. I listened to several pieces. I really like her.

45. julien - December 2, 2008

Check this out!

46. Daily Cardiac - December 2, 2008

Ellen – 19:

“Take care to keep open house: because in this way some have had angels as their guests, without being conscious of it.”
The Bible

Ellen – “And how would you determine the difference between a valid and an invalid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego, etc…? What qualities would you look for in the teacher wielding such a “tool”?”

In one word, Results. Results that indicate consciousness.
How did the inn keeper distinguish Angels in disguise from beggars?

For one thing you have to “Keep Open” to the other side of the ledger, which you don’t seem to be including in your equation of RB.

You see one one side which prompted you to go and you appear to be unaware of the side others have seen which prompts them to stay. I am aware of the side you see but I’ve determined it is of a different scale and in comparison to what is given is inconsequential.

In short I know what I’ve received; it is what I came for. I can’t speak for you or anyone else, and whether you know it or not you cannot speak for me; you cannot determine what another has received. If you think you can you are deluding yourself.

If you are content with your choices that is all you have, and it should be all you need. You do not have outside proof of your beliefs as I don’t have of mine. We will all know the whole story of RB and the FoF in due time.

My position is clear and is contained in my posts from page 41 up to now. In short I have contended that the FoF is a real school of awakening, with RB as its enlightened teacher. I also contend that when individuals cease taking/valuing the school’s one and only commodity, presence, the school in turn ceases to make sense to them and they have to leave.

There is nothing odd or difficult to follow in this reasoning. I believe you are judging incorrectly based on appearances. As a poster said recently “if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it’s probably a duck.” That is based on seeing from the outside in. That works 9 out of 10 times, or 99 out of 100, but the one time appearances fail will be the time you mistake an angel for a beggar.

Turn on the lights in the house and the monstrous shapes all become regular household items; like a shirt tossed over a lamp shade.

You do not see my position as plausible.

Your position is that the FoF is a destructive cult run by a sex crazed sociopath. Even if we go by appearances only that is not very plausible.

A sex crazed sociopath gathers a dozed or so ex-hippies and moves to the wilderness of Oregon House, and parlays that into a multimillion dollar world wide organization that attracts good householders from every walk of life and every major country (about 17,000 so far) as well as attracting world class musicians/recording artists and singers to perform concerts for them.

As well as carving out a world class estate winery, where manzanita bushes once grew, that has won the most prestigious gold medal in existence. As well as an olive oil that was awarded the designation of best in North America and one of the 10 best in the world.(the first American one to break into the world’s ten best ever) Not to mention one of the most beautiful classical European gardens in America. An organization has existed and developed for nearly 40 years. That has co-existed harmoniously with its neighbors all this time. I could go on and on.

Just going by appearances your position is not very plausible. Have you ever been in the presence of a convicted sociopath? If you had you would see well the implausibility of your position.

But I am not going by appearances; I am judging the FoF by what I have received internally, on a spiritual level. That is why I stay.

47. Yesri Baba - December 2, 2008

“I am judging the FoF by what I have received internally, on a spiritual level”

Yeah, I am judging it by what you have received too and it is fucking pitiful

48. lauralupa - December 2, 2008

DC,
what’s very plausible to me is that Robert is your cherished imaginary friend. And who are we to try and take your precious childish fantasy away? I sure wouldn’t want you to feel lonely and lost in this big and scary world.

You are free to keep on looking at Burton “from the inside out”, and embellish the cold truth with your projections. For sure, in due time, when all will know the whole story of RB and the FoF, you won’t be able to complain that no one tried to inform you.

And you will have gained your eternal seat in the Apologists Hall of Fame.

BTW, following your way of reasoning, Ron Hubbard must have been at least a man number eight. But why am I wasting my precious fingertips’ energy dancing on the endless keypad merry-go-round?

Dear boy, sleep well all night, and don’t let the bad bugs bite.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ7gqM_uIAg&feature=related

49. Crouching Tiger - December 2, 2008

DC –

“In short I know what I’ve received; it is what I came for. I can’t speak for you or anyone else, and whether you know it or not you cannot speak for me; you cannot determine what another has received. If you think you can you are deluding yourself.”

I very much doubt that you do know, at this stage. A number of times you’ve repeated this assertion that only you can know your own experience, but it is one thing to receive a certain experience and quite another to place the right value on it, or have it in the right order inside oneself… It may ‘feel good’ or give you what appear to be an access of finer energies, or even contact with some higher powers, but it is your development as a whole entity over a period of time that counts.

It is not just about your ability to become open to these energies. Unless your whole body ‘moves’ to the tune, these experiences may actually become negative. I know this will probably shock you, but there is a limit to the way you are seeing things at present…

One of the difficulties associated with the school is a lack of patience. Patience is a characteristic hardly ever mentioned in it. It is frequently called ‘a school for accelerated development’ for people who are labelled ‘men #4’ even as they cross the threshhold of the school, without having experienced or applied themselves to anything! They are told that their centres are balanced already and that they need pay no attention to any exercises aimed at providing that balance.

This is very curious in any school which claims a 4th Way antecedent, in which the most fundamental aim is to recover the common language of ‘driver’ (mind), ‘horse’ (feelings) and ‘carriage’ (body). In my experience, this is the one thing that cannot ever be assumed or taken for granted.

But it takes a certain amount of time to do this recovery work, and it needs a lot of patience and humility to be willing to undertake it in the first place. If you already imagine you are on the road between man 4 and 5, I don’t think you can ever really be in a position to do this work. If you always feel you can ‘go straight to the third eye’ via a beautiful image or quotation, yes, you will get a certain effect, but it won’t be permanent. It won’t be anything that can fall in the place that it belongs – the seed has to fall in the fertile ground. In other words, the experience, which may be quite valid in its own terms, will be mixed with imagination at some point (before, during or after) and therefore ‘impure’.

I recall reading Osho’s book on meditation for a number of weeks, and trying out his ‘updates’ on Buddha meditations. Once again, you can get powerful results, and ‘get what you came for’, but I also sensed some impatience, always trying to ‘go straight to the third eye’ and so on… Perhaps it was no coincidence that Osho also had some problems with greed and sex, just like REB??

If you have a choice between receiving a ‘higher experience’ and say, a simple experience of a centre working with its own energy, I would urge you to choose the latter. (If such a choice exists!) Whatever you think is true now, in the long run the second will count for more. The first will arrive when it needs to and in its own time, it doesn’t need to be ‘accelerated’. That is imaginary work based on impatience.

I feel this is the root of the over-valuing of the Sequence. Left to its own devices, it might a handy tool, but towards the end of my time in the school it became the be-all and end-all, with which tool Presence could be dragged kicking and screaming towards you!!

But however much you want to, the apple can’t be pulled from the tree until it is ripe to fall. No amount of grasping and tugging will change that. You can only be in position to ctach it when it falls, and to do that, you need eyes, arms, legs, lungs, heart and solar plexus etc.. all working towards the same end. Maybe there’s a lesson in that for REB in his sexual behaviour, which from the stories that have been told here, doesn’t exactly show patience as its main virtue.

And btw, if you really feel that everyone’s experience is unknowable to the other, you cannot say “I also contend that when individuals cease taking/valuing the school’s one and only commodity, presence, the school in turn ceases to make sense to them and they have to leave.” After all, by your very own words, you wouldn’t know, would you?

50. dragon - December 2, 2008

Material greed, spiritual greed. It’s the same thing. You will not accept yourself as you are! (Mr Love P., T—–a)

DC is it greed or spiritual greed you are driven?

Could you try to ask yourself? Does Robert Earl Burton deputizes for your inner self?

51. Ellen - December 2, 2008

Hello Daily Cardiac #44,

I’ve read your response to my query of #19 to define your terms, and I must confess my stupefication. Leroy, you did not answer my questions, but rather proceeded to put words into my mouth which you then went on to refute! Nice soapbox, my friend, so your agenda to propagandize is pretty clear. But the readers here will certainly able to put two and two together (to make four, not five, six or ten). Once again, because you have done this to my posts before, I plead not-guilty. Please, get it straight.

Instead, I repeat:
And how would you determine the difference between a valid and an invalid teacher using sex to dissolve an aspirant’s ego, etc…
and
How would you assess what is sadistic, humiliating or demeaning? Are there objective standards (i.e., relating to essence and personality)?
*******************************
Leroy, the reason your answer of the simple word “results” is an unacceptable response is only because both valid and invalid teachers can produce “states of consciousness” in their students. (Find out for yourself.) Both valid and invalid teachers can found spiritual communities. (Find out for yourself.) Both valid and invalid teachers can spawn all sorts of projects, businesses and/or publications. (Find out for yourself.) So, my question was an invitation to dig deeper. I threw no mudballs. For the record, I continue to protest.

D.C.: “I also contend that when individuals cease taking/valuing the school’s one and only commodity, presence, the school in turn ceases to make sense to them and they have to leave.”

Excuse me??? How could you possibly know??? As Crouching Tiger just pointed out, you continue to insist on the validity of your own experience in relation to presence as your only guide (and I won’t refute or deny it), while you simultaneously use that same guide to judge others! What kind of presence is that? Seems to me you are mixing yours (and mine!) beloved presence with some heavy-duty programming. Leroy, check your bucket…

52. ton - December 2, 2008

there is truth in the postings by FOF shills here on the blog, but revealing it requires a some sifting through the general pile of bullshit… ya, it’s dirty work. truth lies hidden between the lines… for example in the last post by current fof shill ‘DC’:

“I also contend that when individuals cease taking/valuing the school’s one and only commodity, presence, the school in turn ceases to make sense to them and they have to leave.”

that’s true and here’s a clue as to when that happens: when you finally catch on that consciousness is not a “commodity” to be bought and sold, when you finally wake-up to the fact that presence is as natural as drawing your next breath, that ‘presence’ is your birth-right, it’s not something someone can sell you…. (by the way, I have a bridge I would like to sell you…) when you finally realize that the truth is hidden in plain view, ‘on the end of your nose’ as it were, and after 5 or 10 or 30 years of indentured servitude to an ego-maniacal sociopath, if you have the strength of character to admit the truth to yourself and then to walk away…. that’s when it makes sense to leave your cult and rejoin the living.

as for the ‘true believers’ the ‘sheeple” like this tool ‘DC’ — talk about a puritanical self-flagellating mentality… but then again maybe in the case of some, the sado-masochistic tendencies are so deep that nothing else makes sense, and so they stay and defend their ‘freedom to choose’ until the bitter end. aside from being a bloody revolting situation, it’s sad and pathetic really.

53. Jomo Piñata - December 2, 2008

Lacuna Piñata:

You see one one side which prompted you to go and you appear to be unaware of the side others have seen which prompts them to stay. I am aware of the side you see but I’ve determined it is of a different scale and in comparison to what is given is inconsequential.

That is because you are dealing with harm which is, for you, abstract. Once that harm has a human face, i.e., has afflicted someone you know and love, it is no longer abstract. It is like speaking to survivors of a war whose spouses and siblings were killed and referring to the casualties as “collateral damage.”

54. dragon - December 2, 2008

Let’s have a break:

Dominic Frasca: Impossible Guitar

PS DC do you really accept yourself as you are?

55. elena - December 2, 2008

Miguel, Gracias,

Finalmente entendí a mi marido y ya no siento la compulsión de escribir para poder entenderlo. Pero a la orden cuando pueda servirte para algo!

56. fofblogmoderator - December 2, 2008

43, 45, 48 & 54 are newly moderated

57. Ellen - December 2, 2008

#50,
“Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio…”

58. whalerider - December 2, 2008

Daily Challenge:
“Have you ever been in the presence of a convicted sociopath? If you had you would see well the implausibility of your position.”

Your ignorance is indeed remarkable.

I have in fact been in the presence of many convicted and institutionalized people who have displayed a wide range sociopathic behavior. Burton is one of them, and he is at large.

Why else do you think I am making such a fuss?

Here’s the big lacuna in your reasoning:

You are selling snake oil. If the snake oil works and the patient survives, it’s the wonderful properties of the snake oil that saved them. If the patient doesn’t survive, it is because the disease was too far advanced. You totally discount the efforts of the individual due to this grandiose scale you are applying.

If Renaissance wine won some kind of award, you know as well as I that Burton had nothing to do with it; he is not a wine maker, yet you are giving him all the credit. The ability to produce fine wine has nothing to do with level of consciousness. People have been doing that and more for centuries.

59. aline - December 2, 2008

#43. rock that boat

hilarious video!
if you want to laugh today, you must watch it.

60. frank - December 2, 2008

All of you look quite stupid…I do not know you but why sharing the past ? You look like repressed people with nothing to do. Go to work! Study! Do something useful for yourself and the society you live in! Stop expressing your repressions judging other people that cannot even reply to you! You are poor people that lost the connection with your life, that has no sense anymore for you!

61. veramente - December 2, 2008

WR 58
If Renaissance wine won some kind of award, you know as well as I that Burton had nothing to do with it; he is not a wine maker, yet you are giving him all the credit. The ability to produce fine wine has nothing to do with level of consciousness. People have been doing that and more for centuries.

and let us not forget the A. Olive Oil as well, I am not sure the whole operation is hunky-dory!

62. Miguel - December 2, 2008

Hola Elena, recuerdo la ultima vez nos vimos en casa de An—-o y D–a a principios del 2006. Hubo paella con lluvia. Pensé que G era muy afortunado de tenerte a su lado. Me alegre por ambos.

Aquí, un poco de sabor español.

63. brucelevy - December 2, 2008

60. veramente

I don’t have any experience with the olive oil, but while the winery produced a few notable wines they also produced some utter crap. I remember seeing a large number of half bottles of a botrytis wine being sold for $9.00. It was the flattest desert wine ever made. Also the red “ink” as it was known when we were all but forced to buy it because nobody wanted it “out there”. Not to mention the wine writer who described the wines as running the gamut from “good to bizarre”, which is sort of like the FOF itself.

The people who are “in” are, and have always been part of the myth building star chamber where only the “proof” is retained for history, while the facts are massaged or more often discarded altogether.

I know “artists” that produce pure shit, yet the shmuckspirts are ready to praise mediocrity as the highest rung. There are as many experts who quietly laugh at the expertise that the FOF has miraculously been able to produce from it’s members.

64. brucelevy - December 2, 2008

The botrytis wine was sold at Grocery Outlet, by the way, for those familiar with the store.

65. brucelevy - December 2, 2008

And as for the world class gardens….they are the most tasteless, out of place display of gay dumbfuckery I’ve ever experienced. Those who see the physical results of the FOF as something high or evolved of miraculous really need to pull their heads out of their asses, and perhaps speak to someone who knows what they’re talking about in their field.

It’s a rich queens carney. And you are his handmaidens.

66. dragon - December 2, 2008

#57.

In Lacan’s (Jacques-Marie-Émile Lacan was a French psychoanalyst and psychiatrist) analysis,

Hamlet (who is Yorick, who is Hamlet in the FOF?) unconsciously assumes the role of PHALLUS—the cause of his inaction—and is increasingly distanced from reality “by mourning, fantasy, narcissism and psychosis”, which create holes (or “lacks”) in the real, imaginary, and symbolic aspects of his psyche.

67. Jomo Piñata - December 2, 2008

The interesting thing is that Lacuna takes the impenetrability of his worldview as a strength. In his view, he is so grounded in his “verifications” that he need not budge an inch in his opinions. The irony is that this does not demonstrate a living intelligence, but an inability to integrate new information into the way he sees the world. The way he sees the world does not change, no matter how much the world changes.

According to Jared Diamond, the Vikings in Greenland died out because they were not able to learn from the native people about how to survive. They could not take in and appropriately value the new information. They clung to their old worldview even when it was manifestly not adaptive.

68. fofblogmoderator - December 2, 2008

60 & 62 are newly moderated

69. Wondering - December 2, 2008

#60-

“All of you look quite stupid…” “You look like repressed people with nothing to do” . “Stop judging other people…….”

You can’t be serious????

70. Jomo Piñata - December 2, 2008

All of you look quite stupid…I do not know you but why sharing the past ? You look like repressed people with nothing to do. Go to work! Study! Do something useful for yourself and the society you live in! Stop expressing your repressions judging other people that cannot even reply to you! You are poor people that lost the connection with your life, that has no sense anymore for you!

Really, he’s issuing commands to himself, because a part of him is interested in what we have to say, and he’s been trained to call the part of himself the “lower self.” He’s a house divided against himself, which cannot stand.

71. whalerider - December 2, 2008

Frank:
“Do something useful for yourself and the society you live in!”

Like closing down a rape factory?

72. Yesri Baba - December 2, 2008

#60 Mssr. Furter,

“Stop expressing your repressions judging other people that cannot even reply to you!”

=======+

What, no DSL running into the Yesidi circle?

73. elena - December 2, 2008

Is Spanish O.K. with you? Miguel seems to feel more comfortable in it and it would be very good to hear his voice on this subject.

Miguel, que placer que seas tú. Ya te saliste de ese antro de locos en que nos metimos con tanta devoción? Supongo que no estarías aquí si no fuera así.

Gracias por el cumplido. Yo también me se muy afortunada de saber que hizo todo lo que pudo porque nos fuera bien con la media mitad que se lo permitió aunque la otra lo atrapara más profundamente en el Fellowship.

Lindo que nos contaras como ha sido para ti. Que piensas? Como llegaste a entender? Que entendiste? No sufras por el inglés, ya lo tenías bastante pulido la última vez que nos vimos, cualquier cosa, te ayudo, pero cuéntanos. Gracias por el tema, aquí lo estoy disfrutando. Un gran abrazo. Clara

74. Jomo Piñata - December 2, 2008

Bienvenidos á Miguel! Espero á escuchar á tu perspectiva.

75. Walter J. Tanner - December 2, 2008

Fellow Travelers,

While I was telling a story the other day, a family member noted that I had already told it, earlier in the day.

She caught me sleeping–the story had unwound on its own–and I felt remorse because I do preach the whole awareness/presence shtick, and my hypocrisy was in full view: if one is truly awake and aware of one’s experiences, how do you go and tell the same story to the same person within one day?

My remorse was catalyzed by memories of the Fellowship. I remembered the moment when I first got the courage to ask an older student about Robert: I asked the Maestro of the Apollo Orchestra if he really believed Robert was awake (or “in the third state”) most of his waking hours. The student answered that he did believe Robert was awake most all of the time, and in fact Robert had reported at teaching dinners that he can be in the third state all day long.

I was confused because, as anyone who spends time with him would know, Robert repeats himself endlessly, makes identical requests to the same student, tells the same stories and jokes over and over.

(My social radar is well tuned, and I realized without verbal instruction that if Robert asked me the same thing twice, I should just whip out the little notepad we all carry and write it down again, and make no mention that it had already been said. Prominent Robert-protégées are all experts at this.)

You can imagine the angle given: Robert, the conscious being, is consciously telling the same story, request, etc., to shock you into the third state, jam your lower functions, etc.

Except, problem: it never did. It just made me think that Robert is as hopelessly clinging to the “present” as all of us. But I didn’t have the courage then to accept this truth and instead adopted the devotional attitude and just assumed everything Robert says or does is for the greater good of his students (this is a venerable spiritual practice, BTW, and one reason why I don’t harsh so much on current students).

I’ll put my faith in those I’m surrounded with, who see me as I am, not as I tell them I am.

A harder “way” but more sure.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

76. Jomo Piñata - December 3, 2008

lovely post.

77. harryhindsight - December 3, 2008

#60 Frankfurter,

“All of you look quite stupid”

You can see us all then can you?

Do something useful,
Cover yourself in mustard
and stick yourself up Robert’s bum.

78. Yesri Baba - December 3, 2008

Surely he will take it with relish.

79. Ellen - December 3, 2008

Frank, #60 & Jomo, #70
“In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.” – Eric Hoffer

80. Ellen - December 3, 2008

#75, Walter Tanner,
Nice post, thanks for that.
******
WT: It just made me think that Robert is as hopelessly clinging to the “present” as the rest of us.

Just think about what that statement really means, and how the Fellowship’s practice of Self Remembering has panned out over these 38 years. Look at it as objectively as possible? To my perception, there is a large element of what I call “spiritual masturbation”. It’s masturbation because “you” try to stimulate “your self”, and even though various higher states may orgasmically appear, they disappear once again. So, like Pavlov’s dogs a member learns to salivate at every spiritual opportunity, though the reward may be increasingly infrequent.

Thus, there is the widespread – yet undercover – dependency on sexual stimulation, alcohol, and prescription drugs (Hydrogen 12!!!) amongst the “inner circle teachers” (old and young), and sensory stimulation in general within the Fellowship. Over time, the use of impressions to create a higher state, has turned the servant into the master. It’s a bit like they say in New England, “come ta think of it, ya can’t get thea from hea…”

Where did we go wrong? (please pardon the “we”, it is intended as a generic one) Is this what the practice of Self Remembering was intended to produce? The only answer I can find is that we forgot one very important thing: each other in the greater space within which we all exist, and no holds barred, no fear. No man is an island. No School is an island. We got the consciousness part right but the connection part terribly wrong, therefore, we got it wrong. Big time. Instead of unitive presence we got judgement and polarity.

We “forgot” that higher centers already exist (according to Gurdjieff!). And we misunderstood the relative truth that “machines they are born, machines they die” and took it to be absolute. It is not. It was merely an allegorical tool that Gurdjieff used to explain the structure of the body/mind to Westerners, who at that time, were unaccustomed to the wisdom of the East. An allegory of limited use, and to be discarded when the Openness of the Self began to more clearly manifest and integrate with the body/mind, creating the possibility of a living realization that will forever elude the dualistic masturbations of the Fellowship.

Sorry, Daily Cardiac, I don’t deny your experience, but I do try to put it into perspective.

81. dragon - December 3, 2008

just in case of being interested in that topic:

Singh, Simon; Ernst, Edzard
Trick or Treatment. The Undeniable Facts About Alternative Medicine.
Random House, New York 2008 (Taschenbuchausgabe) ISBN 978-0-593-05904-3, 352 S., 13,95-17,99 EUR

Prince Charles is a staunch defender and millions of people swear by it; most UK doctors consider it to be little more than superstition and a waste of money.

[But] does it really work and is it safe? Can we be sure that the various treatments have been subjected to sufficient scientific testing?

Indeed, does it even matter as long as patients are satisfied with the end results? Welcome to the world of alternative medicine.

In “Trick or Treatment?” these and many more questions are rigorously addressed for the first time by the man uniquely qualified to do so, Professor Edzard Ernst, the world’s first professor of complementary medicine.

Having spent over a decade at Exeter University meticulously analyzing the bewildering – and often conflicting – evidence for and against the efficacy and safety of alternative therapies, this former practitioner of both traditional and complementary medicine brings no bias to the subject; his findings are objective and based purely on scientific evidence.

Writing with him is the respected science writer, Simon Singh, who also brings his considerable scientific knowledge and scrupulous impartiality to this most controversial subject.

Together, they deliver a hard-hitting, groundbreaking examination of more than thirty of the most popular treatments, such as Acupuncture, Homeopathy, Aromatherapy, Reflexology, Chiropractic and Herbal medicines.

82. horrified lover - December 3, 2008

I think the best thing R. came out with in the b room was when he was being fisted by a Russian boy with small hands and wrists. The boy asked him what he would find by doing this and R’s response was “consciousness, dear”, and pointed pantingly to his forehead. I guess he was right, eh?!

83. elena - December 3, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

Even Girard would cry if he heard you lying like that about the winery that Robert destroyed like everything else that was potentially good in the Fellowship. The decadence of the winery is a reflection of the decadence of the “grapevine” and the esoteric principle that inspired people to work.

In the winery, like in the Arts and the Lewis Carroll School together with anything Robert Burton touched, the lack of aim and consistency is so obvious that they are all failed enterprises. The fact that they never functioned with coherence and never connected to “life” successfully reveals how misconstrued they were. Many wonderful people worked in each one of these projects trying to give them a North of their own because Robert’s vision never moved beyond puritanical mannerisms without strength which in the long run consumed their personal effort as much as the enterprise.

The Lewis Carroll School had to become a Charter School because the Fellowship children hated it and moved out of it as soon as they were old enough to say NO MORE to their brainwashed parents. The winery has been decadent since the beginning. It couldn’t sell its wines even with all the prizes it received. It was a bastard child of the Arc of Corruption that was always disconnected from “the Work” and “Life”. Robert made them to make money, not meaning and they all functioned like pieces of Fellowship that had nothing to do with it in reality: Just an excuse to get people to keep busy and believe that they were building an Arc for humanity! The Olive Oil seems to be making a few houses for private students.

It is not surprising that in the end they served to make a bunch of alcoholics and workaholics who keep ever so busy so as to never have enough time to realize that they are as good as dead.

Now those enterprises survive on those who are trying to get some cash out of them convinced that they can still get a few cents from the enormous amounts of money that thousands of people put into building an Arc. They are the living vultures that feed on the decadence of the Fellowship and keep it running in the hope that they’ll still manage to shear another bunch of innocent lambs alive. Their attitude is that they can steal as much as they want while it lasts. They are mining the Fellowship with the same greed that Robert raped the believers, but they don’t realize that no one can’t drink that much water without drowning.

84. Crouching Tiger - December 3, 2008

Ellen.

“We “forgot” that higher centers already exist (according to Gurdjieff!). And we misunderstood the relative truth that “machines they are born, machines they die” and took it to be absolute.”

Thank you for another sensible, sensitive post.

I was tidying my bookshelves the other day, and came across a dusty old copy of ‘Self-Remembering’ by REB. I settled down and looked through it for about half an hour. What impressed me about it is the sheer lack of many independent, digested conclusions about the Work, compared to either Gurdjieff or Ouspensky.

REB just doesn’t seem to have much material of his own, hence the style of issuing short bullet points or mission statements on various subjects. And he can’t go more than a sentence or two without having to quote someone else (presumable of greater authority than he) to fill in the missing spiritual DNA strand…

With G. (certainly) or O. (occasionally) when they write, you at least feel that they are telling rather less than they know, with REB it’s more a case of ekeing the material out.

85. ton - December 3, 2008

harryhindsight/yesri… you so funny!

86. ton - December 3, 2008

“It is perfectly possible for a man to be out of prison, and yet not free – to be under no physical constraint and yet to be a psychological captive… The nature of psychological compulsion is such that those who act under constraint remain under the impression that they are acting on their own initiative. The victim of mind-manipulation does not know that he is a victim. To him the walls of his prison are invisible, and he believes himself to be free. That he is not free is apparent only to other people. His servitude is strictly objective.”

Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley

87. Mick Danger - December 3, 2008

Goddamn it, we’re brilliant!
We’ve stumbled upon the great theological question of our time. How many personages & gadgets can dance up Conscious-Bob’s bum? (“Goddess-in-a-Man’s body” reg. trademark).
Purportedly it can contain multitudes and is a bit overcrowded,
but the mustard will definitely help more slide in.

88. peter - December 3, 2008

“Every cult member thinks he or
she is in the only real school on
earth.”

*******
WHY IS THIS SO?
********

“Because if a member of a cult
would think there was a better
group out there – they would
be in that other group.”
“This simple principal makes
that there a worldwide 100,000’s
of people in 10.000’s of cults that
think their specific cult is the real
deal, the Only Real School.

AND THAT

“All other people in other groups
are misguided sheep that are
doomed.”

*******
WHY IS THIS SO?
*******

“Because all the ‘teachers’ of all
these groups told them so.”

*******
AND WHY IS THIS SO?
*******

89. frank - December 3, 2008

Dear Friends, it’s nice to see you reacting so easily, to bite my bitter gift so quickly! You are really sad people with nothing to do. I wish for you good luck because if you keep going this way it’s better for you to kill yourself before!!!…ha ha ha

90. veramente - December 3, 2008

60 Frank
All of you look quite stupid…I do not know you but why sharing the past ? You look like repressed people with nothing to do. Go to work! Study! Do something useful for yourself and the society you live in! Stop expressing your repressions judging other people that cannot even reply to you! You are poor people that lost the connection with your life, that has no sense anymore for you!
——————————–
Frank, you look quite stupid…

91. frank - December 3, 2008

nice…are you there

92. veramente - December 3, 2008

88 Frank
Dear Friends, it’s nice to see you reacting so easily, to bite my bitter gift so quickly! You are really sad people with nothing to do. I wish for you good luck because if you keep going this way it’s better for you to kill yourself before!!!…ha ha ha
——————————
…and more stupid…

93. frank - December 3, 2008

?

94. frank - December 3, 2008

I can give you my phone number so I can wash your brain and give you the right directio…what do you think veramente stupida?

95. frank - December 3, 2008

where are you veramente stupida?

96. frank - December 3, 2008

you don’t react anymoooooooooore? good baby!

97. frank - December 3, 2008

hola harryhindsight…I think you’d like my mustard. If you tell me where to meet you I can come and give it to you personally! I think you have a lot of fear!!! don’t you? if we meet I can show you how bitter is my mustard!!!

98. Yesri Baba - December 3, 2008

“Really, he’s issuing commands to himself, because a part of him is interested in what we have to say, and he’s been trained to call the part of himself the “lower self.” He’s a house divided against himself, which cannot stand.”

—————

“It is a tragedy of inhumanity when a group of people assign another group of people the status of less than human to justify raining down torture and atrocities upon them.

But one stands stunned in slack jawwed awe when witnessing a group of people doing this to themselves.”

Lostis Dentur

99. lauralupa - December 3, 2008

can we ban this creep?

100. lauralupa - December 3, 2008

I mean the guy covered in mustard

101. fofblogmoderator - December 3, 2008

82 is newly moderated. Also, the new contributor “Frank” might not be around here much longer

102. Panorea - December 3, 2008

It is quite a thrill writing to people you do not know and seeing your name (or whatever variation of it…) appearing, but Frankly Frank, you are completely nuts. I wonder whether your vocabulary consists of more words than “stupid”. Try writing some more please….

Oh and yes, wipe that foam off the edges of your mouth. Yes, there, right there. Or was it mustard???

103. harryhindsight - December 3, 2008

Hey Frankfurter

8 posts in one day and we’re the ones reacting huh?

When you get back up Robert’s butt ask him if he’d like
you to Poupon him.

104. Old Fish in the Sea - December 3, 2008

frank says:”Dear Friends, it’s nice to see you reacting so easily, to bite my bitter gift so quickly! You are really sad people with nothing to do. I wish for you good luck because if you keep going this way it’s better for you to kill yourself before!!!…ha ha ha”

Dear Frank,
This is how I see it:

I believe a balanced life consists of:
Daily exercise
Daily meditation
Daily reading
Daily writing
Daily Art (Poetry, Music, etc.)
Time with Friends
Work on projects outside of personal needs (e.g. family, teaching, helping others)
Making a living and supporting loved ones

For me and I expect many others, the blog provides a chance to write, get some honest feedback, and think carefully about what is important in life. It fulfills the need to reflect through reading and writing. The blog is not always beautiful but it deals with many spiritual and psychological subjects including self-delusion, spiritual paths, and ways we lie to ourselves. Most importantly, it allows Shippers and Former Shippers to discuss some taboo subjects. It is a chance for one person to share what he or she as learned with others – the purpose of conversation according to Meher Baba. I wish, while I was in, I had been more willing to share with those that left before me and I wish they had been more willing to share with me. I guess we both might have benefitted. The blog serves that purpose (and a few others too).

I am sure, as you say, that time is wasted on the blog, and I guess we all have scolded ourselves from time to time for hours spent at the computer, but I think you go to far to assume that it is all spent unproductively (or stupidly as you say). I don’t understand how you decide, based on this blog, that we have nothing to do. Doing all of the things I mentioned (and more) makes for a full life. Good luck to you.

105. dick moron - December 3, 2008

82. Horrified lover

I think the best thing R. came out with in the b room was when he was being fisted by a Russian boy with small hands and wrists. The boy asked him what he would find by doing this and R’s response was “consciousness, dear”, and pointed pantingly to his forehead. I guess he was right, eh?!
———————————-
Actually he found the Vacheron Constantin watch that the previous guy with small hands left there.

106. elena - December 3, 2008

It’s intereting what people here feel inclined to respond to and not respond to. Frank is another of the Fellowship’s tactics to discredit the blog now that Daily Cardiac has proven such a failure. Members reading will have so many judgement Is as soon as they open that they’ll quickly close it again. If no one responds to Frank, he’ll dry up in his own vinegar. Maybe it’s just easier to react to that much stupidity with as much stupidity and stay dead silent when things with more substance are presented. Fortunately we are each free to choose what we feed our selves with and what comes out of our mouth. After all this is just a blog. A dark neighbourhood filled with hooligans is a much more attractive neighbourhood for the Fellowship to present to its disinfected King of Hearts, Gold Alchemy slaves than a Public Square filled with life!. You better stay in there all of you, the likes of you would be slaves anywhere.

107. Vena - December 3, 2008

I would like to know what Daily Cardiac thinks to himself after reading the post by “Horrified Lover”. This is too bizarre and sick for even the most devoted of zealots to justify.

108. Yesri Baba - December 3, 2008

“I think the best thing R. came out with in the b room was when he was being fisted by a Russian boy with small hands and wrists. The boy asked him what he would find by doing this and R’s response was “consciousness, dear”, and pointed pantingly to his forehead. I guess he was right, eh?!”

———-

Small hands and wrists but exceedingly long arms apparently.

109. lauralupa - December 3, 2008

it’s just one of these typical awkward blog’s moments, these always abrupt and horrifyingly poetic twists of fate.
It’s all that jazz, and that’s that

Old Fish, you are getting younger by the day!

for all the brass lovers out there – no, not you rbass lovers-you go get yourselves a productive life in society!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Mqd5foJ0M

110. harryhindsight - December 3, 2008

108 Yesri,

But not forgetting that you just can’t reach the forehead from there.
It’s impossible, I’ve tried.

111. Daily Cardiac - December 3, 2008

Walter Tanner – 75:

With consciousness there is always more to the picture than meets the eye. I am surprised you, one of the moderate voices of reason on the blog, would not go deeper with why Robert often repeats himself. Is it true you really can’t think of another reason besides being unaware he is doing it?

Here’s a story about Meher Baba from his secretary Eruch:

A couple brought their new born to Baba to “bless” in the way he was accustomed to doing. The couple raised up the infant for Baba to see and Baba asked the mother – “Is it a boy or a girl?”

The mother replied proudly and without hesitation “A boy.”

I thought it was more than a little odd; Baba was looking right at the baby and had perfect eyesight, and the baby had no clothes on.

112. lauralupa - December 3, 2008

DC
I bow to your superior erudition, Baba

113. lauralupa - December 3, 2008

I meant baby

114. lauralupa - December 3, 2008

I mean… never mind

115. Daily Cardiac - December 3, 2008

Ellen – 83:

“The Lewis Carroll School had to become a Charter School because the Fellowship children hated it and moved out of it as soon as they were old enough to say NO MORE to their brainwashed parents.”

I hated the schools I went to also. A lot of children hate going to school period.The high school aged children naturally wanted to go somewhere where there were more than 10 students in their class. That’s understandable.

The charter school is a win win proposition; the community (not only FoF children) benefit greatly. This would not have happened without the Lewis Carroll School. The LCS begot the Charter school.

By the way; the LCS still exists as a pre-school open to all local residents.

The winery has become more of an elite operation as it downsized. The recent writeups by experts like Mat Kramer and Parker rave about the wines. With wine making less is often more. Think Lafitte Rothschild vs. Gallo.

It was Robert who decided to start a vineyard as well as an olive grove.I believe his intent all along was other students besides himself would actually make the wine and olive oil.

Bruce – 63:

“I don’t have any experience with the olive oil, but while the winery produced a few notable wines they also produced some utter crap. I remember seeing a large number of half bottles of a botrytis wine being sold for $9.00. It was the flattest desert wine ever made. Also the red “ink” as it was known when we were all but forced to buy it because nobody wanted it “out there”.”

The “Ink” (circa 1980 – 84 during it’s heyday as the wine poured at lunch for free and at the wine bar for dinner for about .50 a glass), as it was affectionately known to students was selling for over $200 a magnum in L A in the mid nineties before it sold out.

That’s typical of great wines; they just get better with age.

116. harryhindsight - December 3, 2008

Daily Cardigan

“The mother replied proudly and without hesitation “A boy.”
I thought it was more than a little odd; Baba was looking right at the baby and had perfect eyesight, and the baby had no clothes on.”

Probably a hermaphrodite D.C.

117. elena - December 3, 2008

Yes, and it was also Robert’s idea to destroy it and they started tearing it apart until they found out the land was worth millions more with the vineyard on it. But the winery is dead like the School and the Lewis Carroll School, you’re just a bunch of ghosts living in imagination about an ideal that never existed. Make the best of it though, as I said before, the likes of you make slaves everywhere you go, when you start starving you might still find a few grapes to survive on.

And by the way, look where you’re going, you’re not supposed to answer Elena and I’m not Ellen.

118. Walter J. Tanner - December 4, 2008

From Daily Cardiac:

Walter Tanner – 75: With consciousness there is always more to the picture than meets the eye. I am surprised you, one of the moderate voices of reason on the blog, would not go deeper with why Robert often repeats himself. Is it true you really can’t think of another reason besides being unaware he is doing it?

I spent five years or so thinking up other reasons why Robert does the things he does. The human mind is awesome in its ability to find reasons. Did you notice, DC, that when Robert turned his attention to palm trees, that you too began to notice palm trees more often? I remember driving into Yuba City and seeing a beautifully slender palm, standing like a relaxed sentinel, that “I had never seen before.” Of course it was there, had been there, but not until Robert directed my attention to palm trees did I notice it. It was like his attention had re-coded my own perceptual programs.

This was one of the biggest lessons for me in the Fellowship. I soon realized that “I myself” could become the re-programmer of my “lower functions.” I believe this is the movement from a Man #4 to a Man #5, or when a Schoolman (a term from medieval scholasticism) becomes a Master.

I think there may be many current FoFers in this position. Unfortunately, instead of inquiring of their “own” higher centers, they continue to comport themselves to Robert’s picture of consciousness. I’m not even sure this is so bad, because eventually Robert will die; I’m sure many of the proto-fives will merely switch allegiances to Girard (or Asaf? Is it true Robert has anointed him with awakening?) but to those who decide that “they themselves” can stand by themselves, hoping to cease not till death, they will find what all adepts have found:

Creeds and schools in abeyance,
Retiring back a while sufficed at what they are, but never
forgotten,
I harbor for good or bad, I permit to speak at every hazard,
Nature without check with original energy.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

119. Walter J. Tanner - December 4, 2008

And oh, one other little thing deserving of a separate post: even when I accepted the play of devoting myself to Robert Burton and his project, the whole reason for doing so was so that I could taste and revel in the fields of higher consciousness. What Robert and I had was, at base, a very firm contract: he would put me through hell and I would come out an awakened man. I was quite disheartened by the Fellowship types who, upon hearing they were in their seventh or eight lifetime, gave up on the prospect of awakening in this lifetime. I knew they were selling themselves short — and that their relationship with Robert would bear no further fruit. I myself have eschewed the guru-path, and yet my past does determine my present: I have keys to locks unknown, doors unfathomable, but I’ll only give them to you when I’m raging drunk in the Mission. Damn kali-yuga, damn possibilities. But it is glorious, if you can re-program yourself to see the light deep within utter darkness.

120. abigail - December 4, 2008

Just watched the Evil Guru–are those people in the video who I think they are? hope so.

121. dick moron - December 4, 2008

115 Daily Contradiction

The winery has become more of an elite operation as it downsized. The recent writeups by experts like Mat Kramer and Parker rave about the wines. With wine making less is often more. Think Lafitte Rothschild vs. Gallo.
——–
Lafitte Rothschild produces about 30,000 cases of wine in a good vintage. Hardly a small operation and Robert Parker has “raved” about Gallo wines in the past. If you don’t believe me, look it up.
The question is, what does the profit/loss sheet show for the RVW over the years. If you funnel enough of church members donations into a bloated, mismanaged, winery that blows money out of it’s ass, you might occasionally make a decent wine.
You were not around then, but the first so-called “Winery donation” request claimed that the winery would be making a huge profit by 1984 and the donation money would be repayed to the church. Of course this never happened, and the failed business continued to suck-up members hard-earned donations like a queer pseudo-teacher named Bob sucks semen.
So now RVW provides a nice side hobby with perks for Gi_eon Beanstalk while he runs his own private winery business. As for the Apollo Olive Oil Company, this is a private venture that apparently feeds off of FOF free labor and resources for the gain of certain individuals like Steven Dumb_ck.

If the serfs and peasants don’t rebel against this exploitation, I guess things will keep on keeping on until the money runs out.

122. fofblogmoderator - December 4, 2008

120 is newly moderated

123. Daily Cardiac - December 4, 2008

Horrified Lover – 82:

“I think the best thing R. came out with in the b room was when he was being fisted by a Russian boy with small hands and wrists. The boy asked him what he would find by doing this and R’s response was “consciousness, dear”, and pointed pantingly to his forehead. I guess he was right, eh?!”

Don’t tell me Horrified; I’ll bet you overheard this while standing in line at the Oregon House Grocery.

124. Daily Cardiac - December 4, 2008

Dick Moron – 121:

“So now RVW provides a nice side hobby with perks for Gi_eon Beanstalk while he runs his own private winery business. As for the Apollo Olive Oil Company, this is a private venture that apparently feeds off of FOF free labor and resources for the gain of certain individuals like Steven Dumb_ck.”

If the serfs and peasants don’t rebel against this exploitation, I guess things will keep on keeping on until the money runs out.”

Several medals, including gold, at Vinexpo (the Oscars for wine awards), and the first American olive oil to make the the top ten in all the world speaks for itself – quite a coup for a destructive cult’s hobby.

125. Daily Cardiac - December 4, 2008

Elena,

Well I got the number right,(83.) One out of two isn’t that bad.

126. harryhindsight - December 4, 2008

Daily Cardigan,

“Don’t tell me Horrified; I’ll bet you overheard this while standing in line at the Oregon House Grocery.”

I heard it from two people who witnessed it together D.C. It didn’t happen in the O.H. store, it went on in the Galleria. Robert apparently used to call the guy, “Goldenfist” – sick puppy huh?

127. God Laughing - December 4, 2008

Soooooooo hilarious!

RB! THE PILLOW!

I remember the pillow thing!
Only now do I understand the need for a pillow all the time
to much damage to the seat area, correct?

128. whalerider - December 4, 2008

Daily Challenge:
If I am not mistaken, I believe the genesis of “Ink” was Calloway Petite Syrah and not a Renaissance wine at all. You may be refering to “Son of Ink”, which leads me to think you were not a vineyard worker during the time in question.

BTW, during WWII, the Germans made the best airplanes in the world. And the whole country was run by a raving lunatic who like to use the ‘father’ image, too, just like your cult leader. Their leader made the people feel pretty special, like they were the elite chosen ones, too.

And Gandhi made his own clothes by hand and never won a award for that at all.

So I guess it all depends on what value you place on human life, even the lives of those whom disagree with you.

129. Daily Cardiac - December 4, 2008

Walter Tanner – 118:

“I spent five years or so thinking up other reasons why Robert does the things he does. The human mind is awesome in its ability to find reasons. Did you notice, DC, that when Robert turned his attention to palm trees, that you too began to notice palm trees more often? I remember driving into Yuba City and seeing a beautifully slender palm, standing like a relaxed sentinel, that “I had never seen before.” Of course it was there, had been there, but not until Robert directed my attention to palm trees did I notice it. It was like his attention had re-coded my own perceptual programs.”

I remember once buying stock in Dell computers. Immediately after whenever I went into a Starbucks, or other cafe the first thing I would look for was the brand name of the laptops. We are stimulus response creatures who think associatively.

What is your point?

As I see it the overall good of associative thinking is what one does with it. If a palm tree stops imagination and brings one to the present that is the best use of the association. If it causes one to go into imagination, or continue in it, it is a bad association.

130. brucelevy - December 4, 2008

124. Daily Cardiac

You really are a shallow little dick.

131. Daily Cardiac - December 4, 2008

LauraLupa – 99:

“can we ban this creep?”

If you were to dispense with hypocrisy you would see that in order to ban Frank you would also have to ban Bruce, ton, and Yesri Baba.

The only difference between Frank and the other three is that Frank is insulting you while the other three are insulting me.

132. frank - December 4, 2008

LauraLupa, don’t worry about Bruce, Ton and Yesry Baba…they just tasted my bitter drop and they need to digest it! That’s why they are insulting you.

This demonstrate how stupid people are in this blog and how easy is to manipulate their mind even if they think are appereantly free.

Hola harryassholesight…how are you doing? Looking forward to hear from ya!

I would like to be around you…please don’t ban me only for saying the true! ha ha ha ha

133. harryhindsight - December 4, 2008

Hey Frankfurter,

Did you Poupon Bobby?

134. frank - December 4, 2008

hola harryasshole…i did it on your mom!

135. harryhindsight - December 4, 2008

Frankfurter,

Bobby is my Mom

136. frank - December 4, 2008

Very interesting Harryasshole.

It seems true that this Bobby is your Mom because someone like you can come out only from a asshole.

Hola everybody…how are you doing? Hope having fun out there. This is the right use of this blog, don’t you think so?

137. frank - December 4, 2008

Hola Harryasshole,

it seems true that this Bobby is your Mom, because someone like you can come out only from a asshole.

Hola everybody, how are you doing out there? Don’t you think this is the right use of this blog?

Waiting for your responses, i send you many kisses!

138. Draco - December 4, 2008

Frank must be a current FOFer. He’s doing the passive-aggressive thing which other members have done before. Insult everyone and then sit back and tell us that he’s shown us what we are when we get angry. I don’t particularly like Bruce’s insults, but Bruce has regularly participated in the discussions. If Frank doesn’t post a piece of discussion of argument or experience he should be banned. Trolling isn’t acceptable.

As for RVW and Apollo Olive Oil: both are high-quality products. AOO continued to employ someone after he left the FOF, which is a move towards basic decency and minimum standards of business practice. RVW would collapse if Gideon pulled out. REB would only drink French wine for years (gifts of wine from students were sold off) and can’t drink much wine now because of his increased intake of antidepressants. I remember Robert at a dinner commenting, “We’re producing delicious fine wines which are going to be guzzled by greedy people in life who don’t know what they’re tasting.”

The LCS worked well enough for younger children but didn’t provide an adequate level of education for the older ones. The older children were all very happy to leave the LCS and go to schools in Marysville and Grass Valley. It’s another Fellowship white elephant and, even though it’s now a charter school, it would need to develop considerably to avoid going under.

Daily Cardiac again: Walter had personal experiences of Robert repeating himself and forgetting what he had told his students to do. I suppose you may well argue that this doesn’t intrinsicall have any connection to consciousness or lack of the same. But what has Meher Baba to do with this? By plowing through the lives of “conscious beings” you can justify just about anything–rape, murder, betrayal, persecution, you name it. But it You post very little of your own experience with Robert.
Robert’s approach to self-remembering makes everything else seem valueless, hence your shrugging off of the coercive sex, shunning, money-laundering, greed, etc.
Your valuation

139. fofblogmoderator - December 4, 2008

From #138

“If Frank doesn’t post a piece of discussion of argument or experience he should be banned.”

I think this is a good policy to adopt. Frank, this is your warning. Prove yourself to be a contributor by the above definition or you will be banned.

140. frank - December 4, 2008

Hola Draco, you are totally right! I’m doing th passive-aggressive thing that other fofer did it and you know why, because I’m both passive and active so, if you want we can have some fun together!

Come oooooon! Enjoy this lifetime that is passing and take yourself less seriously. From your reply you look like one of this politicians that are ruling this world very nice externally but very empty inside. very sharp and precise in the answer but probably with dirty underware. It’ s not bad to have dirty underware…it’s just the way we are but don’t pretend to be something you are not.

Ok..don’t do it again and i’ll forgive you

141. Draco - December 4, 2008

I didn’t feel that I quite expressed what I wanted to say in my last post. Basically. DC’s responses to criticisms of Robert say “so what?” If that doesn’t work, then he adopts the FOF equivalent of holocaust denial, “I don’t believe it.” Does Robert coerce heterosexual men into sex with him? So what? Did that involve anal fisting? I don’t believe it.

So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. Endless repeated to block any possibility of genuine feeling or compassion.

142. Draco - December 4, 2008

I heard that in the 1990s Robert was sending potential sexual partners off to have AIDS tests before he had sex with them. MG was responsible for organising this. Can anyone confirm this?

143. ton - December 4, 2008

thank you draco… excellent posts.
denial is not a river in africa, but it is a tactical aspect of the ‘circular thinking’ regularly used by the FOF shill… another aim of ‘circular thinking’ or engaging in this circular dialogue is diversion; the aim here is best illustrated by the words of the shill DC from further up the page:

“after a few go rounds it becomes increasingly hard to separate fact from fiction.”

separating ‘fact from fiction’ is difficult in the mind of DC and part of the shill’s agenda is to attempt to blurr and smudge the facts for others. diversion is a way to rationalize the situation, or maybe it works the other way… to rationalize the situation is a means of diversion (?) whatever the case… shills like DC can continue polishing turds but it still smells like shit.

“….even those readers who remain unconvinced that brainwashing contributes significantly to the costs of leaving cult movements will agree that the costs themselves are frequently not negligible. Too often in sociology, especially in rational choice treatments, we have assumed that they are and that one can change religions almost as easily as one changes hats.”
Benjamin D. Zablocki

144. dragon - December 4, 2008

Draco, ton et al.

We will not be divided! It is our choice!

145. Ellen - December 4, 2008

#115, Daily Cardiac,

To what purpose now? For the record, post #83 regarding the LCS and other Fellowship operations is a post written by Elena not Ellen.

For myself, I honor the people who have gave their best to the many ambitious projects begun by the Fellowship. Some of them are quite literally (still) my best friends. I consider their impulse to be pure, though often misdirected, misused or mismanaged.

146. frank - December 4, 2008

Hi Ton, what are you talking about? Are you crazy or what. I can send you to a Psichotherapsit,one of my great fellow fofer; you can contact him…this could be useful for you!

Let me know if you wish. By the way i do not want to desturbe your sweet dreams anymore…you look quite lonely out there…infact without any guidance what can you pretend!

I can be your guide if you want. I’m available. I work in front of a computer and i can be with you all day long and give some new stimulous for this beautiful blog to survive. of course to all this stimulous you are pleased to react.

You are actually doing it very nicely…please do not stop! and don’t ban me.

to the moderator: am i still offending anyone? if yes, please let me know.
to draco:i do not want to divide you, but consider this: you are already divided. what do you have in common? looking to hear from you.
to harryasshole: hi…sorry for being not so kind with you. Apologize

147. Vena - December 4, 2008

Do we really need to read these incoherent, adolescent rantings from the person calling himself “Frank”? They are worse than Daily Cardiac’s sequence, “So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it. So what? I don’t believe it.”

148. Jomo Piñata - December 4, 2008

Hey frank, wanna play ping pong?

149. Jomo Piñata - December 4, 2008

C’mon, ya want a piece ‘a me? Let’s have a little stimulus-response dance. Note the spelling by the way.

150. Jomo Piñata - December 4, 2008

You think you’re better than we are. You think you’re more awake than we are. Don’t you. Don’t you.

151. Jomo Piñata - December 4, 2008

Don’t deny it. You think you’re better than we are and more awake than we are. You think we’re pitiful. Give us a little pity party. Awwwwwww!

152. Jomo Piñata - December 4, 2008

What are you, a scaredy cat?

153. Mick Danger - December 4, 2008

There is a “Far Side” cartoon showing God in God’s kitchen making the world in a bowl. There are boxes & jars of ingredients everywhere. God is adding an ample amount from a jar marked “Jerks” to the mix and is thinking to himself:
“And, just to make it interesting…..”

Hey, you don’t think Bobby is smuggling contraband across international borders up his bum, do you?
It’s going to be a nasty investigation.

154. veramente - December 4, 2008

Draco,
about the AOO, who left? certainly not the old timers like SD or G. (the italian?)

155. frank - December 4, 2008

hoooooolaaaaaa Jomo Pinata de mierda…i was waiting for someone like you… a little stupid fish biting the worm…

honestly i do not feel better than you or better than anybody. I’m just having some fun with you guys.

Don’t take me too seriously. Actually You, Jomo Pinata, i feel You got my point…don’t you?

156. veramente - December 4, 2008

131 DC
LauraLupa – 99:

“can we ban this creep?”

If you were to dispense with hypocrisy you would see that in order to ban Frank you would also have to ban Bruce, ton, and Yesri Baba.

The only difference between Frank and the other three is that Frank is insulting you while the other three are insulting me.
————————————-
again DC is only seeing black and white and has no relativity.
He/ She is not verbally nasty but still needs to be handled with care.

157. frank - December 4, 2008

Hey guys….listen to me….i give you a suggestion:

why don’t we meet and, insteahd of talking about Bobby..AOO…LCS…WINE…OIL…we have a little orgy party all together? I think it would be more interesting…it would be a better use of our time!

Looking forward to hear some serious responses…let’s stop playing for a little while.

158. whalerider - December 4, 2008

Daily Challenge:
“As I see it the overall good of associative thinking is what one does with it. If a palm tree stops imagination and brings one to the present that is the best use of the association.”

What makes you think one cannot be present to one’s imagination?

Do you think it is also not possible to be present to a dream while in bed asleep?

I got news for you.

I would argue that your associations about “being present” when gazing at said palm tree only serve to put you into a different form of imagination…the illusion that you are now more “awake” when before you were not and that you are part of some elite group of people imagining you have an exclusive connection to God.

This is another fine example of the depth of your spiritual ignorance.

If you want to “see” another person’s level of spirituality, Burton for example, study how they react to anyone who disagrees with them.

Notice I have not given up on you, have I?

159. lauralupa - December 4, 2008

the juvenile humor, the sexual sleaziness, the insistent poking…
either Frank is Vinnie reborn, or he should go play with Vinnie.
a match made in fish heaven

160. Mick Danger - December 4, 2008

No, I think he should “sleep with the fishes”.

161. whalerider - December 4, 2008

frank:
That little photo up there in the top right hand corner…guess where it was taken?

Here’s a gift for you:

http://yesisthenewno.warnerbros.com/

162. Miguel - December 4, 2008

Hola Frank, by chance, do you like playing hard games? Migth be you are the fellow I’m waiting for so many years. Please let me now. sweet dreams dear.

Muchas gracias Clara por tu amabilidad y condescendencia conmigo.
¿Puedo usar tu e-mail para escribirte en privado
Un beso.

Thank you Jomo Piñata. Here we ARE.

163. Miguel - December 4, 2008

Robert Earl Burton, please, The sex fantasies (like in the Decameron of Boccaccio) may be are very good on its plane. But it is not! good idea tray to take them to this level of reality.
Like all of us, Robert, YOU WILL PAY. Enjoy minwhille.

164. Miguel - December 4, 2008

Frank, Frank, Frank. ¡You are such a pile of shit that I can smell it here, on the east of Spain!

165. Daily Cardiac - December 4, 2008

WhaleRider – 158:

WR – “I would argue that your associations about “being present” when gazing at said palm tree only serve to put you into a different form of imagination…the illusion that you are now more “awake” when before you were not and that you are part of some elite group of people imagining you have an exclusive connection to God.”

There is presence and there is imagination. They are not the same; they occupy different planes. Water cannot be both hot and cold. It can be luke warm, but not both hot and cold at the same time.

Your examples are not valid. What you are doing is putting words into my virtual “mouth.”

Of course one can be in imagination thinking one is present. But one can also BE present, or not be present.

Your earlier post about squares was one long attempt to devalue a tool for consciousness when it’s obvious you don’t value it enough to
actually put it to the test. You immediately judge anything about RB or the FoF deficient because your mind has been closed to all but criticism. You are predisposed to think in a certain way about RB/FoF because you have already rejected him/it.

If you understood RB or the FoF you would still be a member.

A person cannot understand a conscious school and leave it.

It would like deciding to stop breathing. You cannot do it naturally, you need aids like a rope around your neck.

People decide to leave schools because they don’t understand them. Or because they find they do not want to make the payment necessary to become more awake. It’s always about payment, an invisible law, much like F D. Everyone wants to be awake, but not everyone wants to pay for it. They want consciousness and the status quo, but they cannot have both at the same time; they cannot be both hot and cold at the same time.

“Everyone wants to be Hercules, but without the Labors”

You can “prove” anything with words, or “disprove” anything. Yet in reality proof has little to do with words. Solomon devised a way to go beyond words. And we all have a Solomon in us if we are honest enough to look into truth.

I’m the only one on the blog honest enough to make the claim that nothing here can be proved or disproved.

If that distinguishes me it is only because you have handed me that title by virtue of your own self deception. Don’t confuse your position with truth. It may contain elements of truth and it may contain elements of falsehood. You need to sort out one form the other. With consciousness there are different scales. A person can be aware of his dreams and still not be in the third state. Public speakers/actors/politicians have trained themselves to be aware of what their hands are doing or the inflection in their voice much more than others, but that does not mean their states are higher.

166. brucelevy - December 4, 2008

164. Daily Cardiac

I can’t find a word for that post. I’m truly dumbstruck.

167. Jomo Piñata - December 4, 2008

Lacuna Piñata:

There is presence and there is imagination. They are not the same; they occupy different planes.

Like Pan Am Flight 103 and the Virgin Airways redeye to London!

You seem to be so certain, my brother! I sense that ambiguity and uncertainty are hard for you. Which is a shame, because the human condition is inherently uncertain. One of the appeals of cults with “fundamentalist” doctrines (I include the Fellowship in this category) is that they seem to offer relief from uncertainty.

Water cannot be both hot and cold. It can be luke warm, but not both hot and cold at the same time.

There you go again with the inapt metaphors! The metaphor is much too simple for the circumstance. Every artist who ever used his/her imagination to envision something s/he decided to create was there, paying attention to his imagination. She was present!

But then, the absolute needs simple people who can be sheared without complaint. Baaaaaa!

If you understood RB or the FoF you would still be a member.

Ah, this is a whopper of an illusion. I venture a guess that almost everyone who was ever “in” believed this at one time. Surely YOU, Lacuna, understand RB and the FOF, which is why you stay, right? So YOU understand, and everybody that has left DOESN’T. They don’t understand or they have lost their understanding. Right?

A person cannot understand a conscious school and leave it.

I *knew* you were not paying attention when we discussed “self-sealing doctrines.” You decided that they were basically the same as “self-serving rationalizations.” Right? You’d have to abandon that posture of certainty to even examine the idea that this is an example of a self-sealing doctrine. But you *CAN’T* abandon that posture of certainty. It’s propping you up. Without it, who would you be? Just another uncertain sad sack dreyying around the face of this earth. With that CERTAINTY and your membership in a CONSCIOUS SCHOOL, you can be SPECIAL! LUCKIER than other people! You can feel GOOD about yourself on this borrowed authority. You NEED it. That’s the real reason you’re still inside.

168. Jomo Piñata - December 4, 2008

I’m the only one on the blog honest enough to make the claim that nothing here can be proved or disproved.

You’re not honest. You received honest argument at 56/184 on that proposition and you just ignored it. Maybe you even forgot about it. But that’s not honest.

169. Jomo Piñata - December 4, 2008

If you believe you are honest, Lacuna my brother, you are deceiving yourself. You are now on notice that people conversing with you think you are dishonest, and they aren’t saying that just to insult you. At this point, an ordinary person would search his conscience. Have you the courage to be ordinary?

170. Draco - December 4, 2008

DC, regarding the “no one can leave a conscious school rightly” post. At least you are being honest here. I do believe that this is your point of view. Your other posts skirt around issues like this, using spurtious logic and relativity to attempt to make your views acceptable. Of course, they aren’t acceptable to anyone outside of the Fellowship. Somewhere on the last page you claimed that we will discover which of us is correct (you or the ex-members) when we die. That is also a sincere belief of yours–that salvation can only occur if you are up to date with your FOF payments when you die.

171. Wondering - December 4, 2008

Here’s some fresh words from the big man himself (FOF meeting 11/26) Whereas all the current members are free to discuss these words, none of them are allowed to question them. We can. There’s more if you want…………..

Good evening, my dears. We are truly the luckiest people in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries because we have so much outside help.

“Do not remember the past, remember the present.”
Rumi said, “Can you remember the present?” It was a huge step for us when we heard this thought, for it began our study of the Sufis. “Can you remember the present?” It is music to
our ears. (105) Here are five of us looking at the ruins of Palenque.

[After inquiring about a book a student was reading:] “Schools have been practicing the
‘power of now’ for thousands of years. They have perfected a scientific method for awakening—the sequence. Schools are the source, and the rest is a byproduct of their work.”

(124) A rock painting from Lascaux, dating from 30,000-15,000 BP, depicts five stags crossing the Vézère River, which was their Nile.1 Here we see the message already perfected by the prehistoric school. The Kabbalah says, “The first five commandments imply the second five.” Together the five stags have seventy-two antlers. It looks chaotic, but it has the same meaning as the pyramid of Yucatan—seventy-two—the control of the passions. (224) The great stag from Lascaux is easier to understand.2 He has five points on the top of each antler, and eight points together on the bottom of his antlers,
representing the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths. At the bottom of the image are a narrow gate, and thirteen dots, representing the first Bar Mitzvah.
“One has to be willing to relinquish negative emotions, and the sequence enables one to do that.”
BE stops the lion from roaring. Ouspensky said that the last thing one would give up is
one’s negativity. For the lower self, to eliminate the negativity means to eliminate him.
(119) Six lions support the columns of a pulpit in the cathedral of Sessa Arunca.3 Starting with the lion in the left-hand corner, they represent Be, Hold, Look, Back (the only one
facing in the other direction), Look, and BE. It is very nice, is it not?

“If one speaks too quickly, one does not even know that one is talking. Once one begins,
the lower self will bring as many words as quickly as it can to displace presence.”

This is true if one speaks too quickly or for too long. With every word one says it is a chance to fall asleep, and with every word one does not say it is an opportunity to be present. What we do not say is more important than what we do say. (179) A sculpture from Chartres depicts a devil overthrowing a woman. The nine of hearts is being controlled by the black queen in prolonged imagination. The serpent has her by the ear.
“To the lower self, presence is an irrelevant issue; only imagination has any importance
for it.” (135) A detail of a painting by Jacopo Tintoretto depicts Tarquin and Lucretia.4 2
Lucretia’s necklace of sequential pearls, with six pearls on one side, and four on the other,
represents a broken sequence. It is like Eve about to fall from Paradise. “When we are together, we form a beautiful, mystical body of presence.”
[Michael Malloy, Apollo]
I do not think there can be a better description of these events. (147) Here is a group of us in Palenque. [During lunch, Robert gave an exercise to the students at the adjacent table. One student was to observe silence throughout the lunch, while the others were to speak no more than six sentences. After observing the effect of this exercise, Robert said:] “Now we are all in
the same state. Remember this state and try to be this person at all times, whether we are together or not, with or without the exercise.” Gujduvani said, “Remember yourself always and anywhere.” (207) Here we are at a Thai restaurant in Mexico.

“It is much more difficult to be beautiful within than without.”
The state we are in never fades, while of course, the physical body disintegrates. (216) The St. Petersburg Jacobson Ballet company was performing in Merida when we were
there. They danced the full-length Swan Lake and they were actually quite good. (116) This jester was as good as any dancer you would see at the Bolshoi or Kirov. It was a
wonderful treat. It is a very serious company.

“One thing that can be said of me after I complete my role is that I never stopped trying to lift you up, away from the lower self.”
Tiramisú—“lift me up”—is the favorite dessert at Apollo d’Oro. I rarely become tired of reminding you to be present. Walt Whitman said, “I carry my old delicious burdens . . . I carry them with me wherever I go”—the sequence. (121) Here I am reading
Shakespeare’s Sonnets with a little heart on my nose.

“It is a privilege to use one’s entire energy to assist Influence C, one’s school, one’s fellow students, and one’s self. In our own little way we are helping the Absolute, but I am afraid that we are more work than help.”
(112) Here we are atop the pyramid at Chichén Itzá, above the jungle—the ten thousand ‘I’s. It was quite a privilege to reach the top, because very few people are allowed to go up.
We may have been the only ones to do so in October. It was quite nice to be able to finally go up after looking at the images and speaking about it many times. (212) This is a bird’s-eye view from the top. (213) Here I am bowing.

“In a sense, our entire mental world is a bull-fighting ring. This is the real arena—one must slay the bull internally.”
As we were flying into Mexico City, I saw a bullfighting ring from the airplane. (111) This marvelous image shows a bullfighter slaying an upside-down bull. It symbolizes card
twenty-one slaying the lower self. It requires courage to use the sequence and be present. “Be whisks us into the present.”
Mohammed called Be the “piercing star,” because it pierces imagination. Plautus said, “Easier said than done.” It is easier to say Be than to appear with Be. (104) This fierce-
looking warrior on the left has four divisions under his mouth, and nine plumes at the top.

172. loserbaby900 - December 4, 2008

111 Daily Cardigan

“Here’s a story about Meher Baba from his secretary Eruch:…”

This story is supposed to tell us that all so-called conscious beings are fallible? I think it’s more an argument that all gurus — all of them — are no more awake than anyone else.

And if they are such great teachers, how come no one ever seems to wake up? But if standing around in a suit with a glass of wine in your hand and a goofy smile plastered on your face makes you happy, enjoy. Just hope you don’t get asked for a private meeting with the teacher afterwards.

173. loserbaby900 - December 4, 2008

I agree there is value in living in the present moment. But the moment is yours for the taking. You don’t have to buy it from anyone. And you certainly don’t need to make a religion out of it.

174. harryhindsight - December 4, 2008

Frankfurter,

Moutarde or retard?

Daily Cardigan,

“Payment, an invisible law”

Just like the giant invisible pink elephants in your bedroom. You can’t see them so they must be there right?

Dear Bloggers,
My goodness, what a comedy team these two are. Frankfurter, the pathetically uncomfortable bad guy and Daily Cardigan, chosen one might guess because others with the same stunted ability to reason have faith in his/her ability to argue a point. Obviously the FOF is scraping the barrel now that almost anyone with a brain has left.

The good thing about them appearing here is that they are both transparently pathetic stooges who consistently and inadvertently reveal the mind set of the cult. They probably think their involvement here is third line of work or some other self-calming bullshit.

The strategy behind their involvement is to try and drive the discussion and cause the darling bloggers to seem merely reactive
and negative. The blog is obviously recognized to be a real threat by the hapless, crystalized, inner circle of the cult. Clearly we see an organization incapable of adaptation, it will go the way of the Dodo. That’s merely a matter of time now.

Yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh! WooHoo!

175. James Mclemore - December 4, 2008

166. Jomo Piñata

“You seem to be so certain, my brother! I sense that ambiguity and uncertainty are hard for you. Which is a shame, because the human condition is inherently uncertain. One of the appeals of cults with “fundamentalist” doctrines (I include the Fellowship in this category) is that they seem to offer relief from uncertainty.”

That is such a powerful idea.
It seems like you could almost say that is the whole thing in a nutshell. It looks to me that two of the cornerstones of the ego/separate-self system seem to be a wishing for a sense of ‘specialness’, and the even stronger striving for relief of the fear of the unknown.
The fof offers a package to cover them both. Such a deal, but what a price to pay.

176. lauralupa - December 4, 2008

yesseeree
I keep hoping for a variation on the comedy duo theme, which at this late point in the game is boring me to tears.
They should to start working with triads, remember those?
We’ve got Franky and Daily, now can we please get a Moe?

And in the meanwhile, every night, behind the Galleria’s locked doors…
comedy or tragedy? you decide

either way, you guys are laughable
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=L2LdHH0hmHY

177. fofblogmoderator - December 4, 2008

161 is newly moderated

178. veramente - December 4, 2008

166 Jomo
“One of the appeals of cults with “fundamentalist” doctrines (I include the Fellowship in this category) is that they seem to offer relief from uncertainty.”
—————
174. James Mclemore

That is such a powerful idea.
It seems like you could almost say that is the whole thing in a nutshell. It looks to me that two of the cornerstones of the ego/separate-self system seem to be a wishing for a sense of ’specialness’, and the even stronger striving for relief of the fear of the unknown.
The fof offers a package to cover them both. Such a deal, but what a price to pay.

========================================
I agree and have been thinking about this for quite sometime.
For me it seems connected with the fear of the unknown, death, lack of control and worst a lack of meaning.

179. dragon - December 4, 2008

The Galleria

Listen the music:

180. harryhindsight - December 5, 2008

Hey Shill Committee,

Can we please have a Moe?
(We’ll probably just get Mo’ mustard and cardigans).

181. Jomo Piñata - December 5, 2008

This short article is good:

What Could Be More Tempting
Than An Exclusive Club Run By God Himself
Mirabella, August 13, 1993
By Barbara Grizzuti Harrison

http://www.freeminds.org/women/barbara.htm

182. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - December 5, 2008

#181: Hey Jomo (the evil clown): I liked the article. Well worth reading. Thanks!

183. James Mclemore - December 5, 2008

Yes – thank you Jomo Pinata – I have some first hand experience with the JW’s; and although most of the article was about that need for certainty and the fanatacism it can cause, this line also stood out.

“A charismatic leader can hold onto his flock even when his prophecies fail. In a way, it’s like a bad marriage; you stay in it to recoup your investment.”

184. up with which I will not put - December 5, 2008

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/11/25/sbm.perpetrators/index.html

“People will do almost anything in a group and will do anything not to be rejected,” said psychologist Philip Zimbardo, a professor emeritus at Stanford and famous for his 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment, which divided student volunteers into “prisoners” and “guards” and showed how easily people could be induced to commit sadistic acts.

“They give up a sense of personal accountability and diffuse responsibility to the leader.”

185. whalerider - December 5, 2008

Daily Challenge:
Thank you for you post. I mean it, you are an important voice here, and I value your participation.

I strongly disagree with your polarization of human consciousness into presence vs. imagination.

Water? Dude, it can be liquid, ice and vapor…and it is still water. Is one better than the other? Like consciousness, it is relative to what your needs are. You can’t drink water vapor, fish can’t swim in ice and I prefer to snowboard in snow.

Why on earth can’t you be present to your imagination? Of course you can! Artists do it all the time…same with creativity. You just can’t make it happen; you have to make the effort of getting the ego out of the way to invite it happen…intentionally.

Sometimes I am conscious of my inner world and sometimes I am conscious of my outer world. The yin and the yang both contain a piece of the other within each. It’s the guy who thinks he’s Jesus Christ who’s in imagination, for goodness sake!

Truly, to control or even limit a person’s imagination is tantamount to mind control a la Orwell’s “1984”. Did you ever read that book? Remember, “he who controls the past controls the present”? That’s what Burton is attempting to do with all his insanity about what he imagines about yak poop on cave walls. And why would he do that? …because you are paying his salary with your donations while he has a gay ‘ole time. If he didn’t control what his followers imagine, they just might start imagining how their lives could be better without the FOF indoctrination. With all the money he has stashed away, he doesn’t need to think about his future!

“If you understood RB or the FoF you would still be a member.”

That’s a big “if” and a double bind, grasshopper. Been there, done him, don’t need to go back. By the token, what if I did understand him and that’s why I left?

“What you are doing is putting words into my virtual “mouth.””

Please take into account what I had to put in my mouth to arrive at my present level of understanding.

>>>>>>><<<<<<<

I am glad you are reading my posts, though, particularly the one about non-Euclidian geometry and why in higher realms the square doesn’t exist. (Trust me, after leaving the FOF, I have been a very busy boy.) Have you ever looked into it or do you actually have the “closed mind” you are accusing me of? It’s very enlightening. Non-Euclidian geometry includes higher dimensions of time and space which I believe you have an interest in, don’t you?

The square? Near as I can tell, to the primitive mind it symbolized house or dwelling, that’s about it. The square is a temporal symbol; it does not represent objective reality. Burton has projected his personal meaning onto the humble square; you and others in the cult took the bait, hook, line and sinker because otherwise if you thought outside the box, you’d get booted out of the cult, right?

BTW, those four mindless breaths you are speaking about…I have many, many more than that just practicing yoga…for about 15 bucks a pop…and my mindless breaths are far from as spineless as yours are. Like you said, anyone can experience that if they choose to make the effort.

“Public speakers/actors/politicians have trained themselves to be aware of what their hands are doing or the inflection in their voice much more than others, but that does not mean their states are higher.”

You are so right! That’s the difference between Ronald Reagan and Gandhi. At the end of his life, Reagan couldn’t even remember his own name. Sure you can have consciousness…it’s what you do with your conscious being that makes the difference on the scale of the solar system. It takes all the Whos in Whoville screaming their message at the top of their lungs to barely be heard in the next cosmos up…a huge segment of humanity…far more than what, the few 900 or so people left in the FOF?

Do keep posting! You are our daily bread.

And welcome all you new voices, too!

186. Josiane - December 5, 2008

171- Wondering
“Schools have been practicing the
‘power of now’ for thousands of years. They have perfected a scientific method for awakening—the sequence. Schools are the source, and the rest is a byproduct of their work.”
___________

It almost broke my heart when I heard that the Fellowhip is now bookmarking The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle.

187. elena - December 5, 2008

Part 1
When we seek for laws (or concepts) in the actions of individuals, peoples, and eras, we discover an ethics that is not a science of ethical norms but a natural history of morality. Only the laws obtained in this way relate to human conduct as natural laws relate to a particular phenomenon. But they are by no means identical with the impulses on which we base our actions. If we want o understand how a human actions springs from ethical willing, we must look first to the relationship of that willing to the action in question. First we must focus on actions for which this relationship is decisive. If I or another later reflect upon such an action, then we can discover which ethical principles are relevant. While I am acting, an ethical principle moves me to the extent that it can live within me intuitively; it is united with love for the goal that I wish to realize through my action. I do not consul any person or code with the question, “Should I perform this action?” I perform the action as soon as I have grasped the idea. Only in this way is my action.
The actions of those who act only because they recognize particular ethical norms result from the principles present in their moral code. They are mere executors, a higher form of robot. Toss an opportunity to act into their awareness an, righ away, the clockwork of their moral principles sets itself in motion and runs its course in a lawful fashion to produce a Christian, humane, or apparently selfless action or one for the sake of the progress of civilization. Only when I follow my love for an object is it I myself who act. At this level of morality, I do not act because I acknowledge a lord over me or an external authority or a so called inner voice. I acknowledge no outer principle for my action, because I have found within my self the basis of my acting – love for the action. I do not check rationally whether the action is good or evil; I do it because I love it. My action becomes “good” if my intuition steeped in love, stands in the right way in the intuitively experienceable world continuum; it becomes “bad” if that is not the case. I do not ask myself, “How would another person act in my situation? Rather, I act as I, this particular individuality, want (or will). What directs me is not common usage, not general custom, not a universal human principle and not an ethical norm, but my love for the deed. I feel no compulsion, neither the compulsion of nature, which guides me in my drives, nor the compulsion of ethical commandments. I simply want to carry out what lies within me.

Defenders of universal ethical norms might object to these arguments as follows: If all people strive merely to express themselves, and to do as they please, then there is no difference between a good action and a crime; every bit of knavery within me has equal claim to expression with the intention to ser the universal good. As an ethical human being, what should be decisive for me is not the mere fact that I have focused on the idea of an action, but rather my determination of whether the action is good or eil. Only if I have determined that it is good should I carry it out.

My response to this objection, which seems plausible, but arises only from a misunderstand of what is meant here, is this: Anyone who wants to know the essence of human willing must distinguish between the path that brings willing up to a certain stage of development and the special form that it assumes when it nears its goal. On the path to this goal, norms play their justifiable role. The goal consists in the realization of ethical aims that are grasped purely intuitively. Humans achieve such aims to the degree that they possess any capacity to lift themselves to the intuitive conceptual content of the world. In any individual act of willing, other things are generally mixed in with such aims, as motive or motive power. But intuition can still determine, or codetermine, human willing. What we should do, we do, we offer the stage upon which “should” …..

188. elena - December 5, 2008

part 2

becomes “do.” An action is our own if we allow it to emerge as such from within ourselves. Here, the impulse can only be completely individual. In truth, only an act of will emerging from intuition can be individual. Only if blind drives are reckoned to belong to the human individuality can we see a criminal deed, or evil, as an expression of individuality equivalent to the incarnation of pure intuition. But the blind drive that drives someone to commit a crime does not come from intuition. It does not belong to what is individual within a person. It belongs to what is commonest, to what is equally present in all individuals and out of which we must work our way with our individuality. WHAT IS INDIVIDUAL IN ME IS NOT MY ORGANISM, WITH ITS DRIVES AND FEELINGS, BUY MY OWN WORLD OF IDEAS THAT LIGHTS UP WITHIN THIS ORGANISM. My drives, instincts, and passions establish no more in me than that I belong to the general species human being. The fact that something conceptual expresses itself in a special way in those drives, passions, and feelings establishes my individuality. Through my instincts, my drives, I am the kind of person of whom there are twelve to the dozen; I am an individual by means of the particular form of the idea by which, within the dozen, I designate myself as I. Only a being other than myself could distinguish me from others by differences in my animal nature. I distinguish myself from others by my thinking, that is, by actively grasping what expresses itself in my organism as conceptuality. Thus, we cannot say that the action of a criminal proceeds from an idea. In fact, WHAT IS CHARACTERISTIC OF CRIMINAL ACTS IS PRECISELY THAT THEY DERIVE FROM NON-CONCEPTUAL ELEMENTS WITHIN A HUMAN BEING.

Insofar as an action proceeds from the conceptual part of my individual being it is felt to be free. Every other portion of an action, whether it is performed under the compulsion of nature or according to the requirement of ethical norm, is felt to be unfree.

Humans are free to the extent that they are able to obey themselves at each instance of their lives. An ethical deed is only my deed if it can be called a free deed in this sense. We have examined under which conditions a willed act is felt to be free. What follows, will show how this purely ethically understood idea of freedom realizes itself in human nature.

To act out of freedom does not exclude moral laws, but rather includes them. Still, it stands on a higher level than action dictated by moral laws alone. Why should my action serve the welfare of the whole any less if I have acted out of love than if I acted only because I feel a duty to serve the welfare of the whole? The simple concept of DUTY excludes freedom, because duty does not recognize individuality but demands instead subjection of individuality to a general norm. Freedom of action is thinkable only from the standpoint of ethical individualism.

But how is it possible for humans to live together socially if everyone is striving merely to express his or her own individuality? This objection is characteristic of misguided moralism, which imagines that a society of human beings is only possible if they are all united by a commonly determined ethical order. Such moralism fails to understand the unity of the world of ideas. It cannot conceive that the world of ideas that is active in me is none other than the one that is at work in my neighbor. To be sure, this unity is mrerely a result of experience in the world. But it must be so. For, if it were to be recognized in any way other than observation, then general laws rather than individual

189. elena - December 5, 2008

part 3

experience would give the stamp of validity in that realm. Individuality is possible only if each individual being knows another being by individual observation alone. The difference between me an my neighbor consist not in our living in two completely distinct spiritual worlds, but in my neighbor’s RECEIVING INTUITIONS OTHER THAN MY OWN OUT OF THE WORLD OF IDEAS COMMON TO US BOTH. My neighbors want to live out their intuitions, I mine. If we all really draw from the Idea, and follow no external (physical or spiritual) impulses, then we cannot but meet in the same striing, the same intentions An ethical misunderstanding, a clash, is impossible among ethically free human beings. Only someone who is ethically unfree, who obeys natural dries or the conventional demands of duty, will thrust aside someone else who does not follow the same instincts and the same demands. To live in love of action, and to let live in understanding of the other’s will, to the fundamental maxim of free human beings. They know no other “should” than the one with which their willing is intuitively in harmony. Their capacity for ideas tells them how they are to will in any given case.

If the basic source of compatibility did not lie within human nature, we could not implant it by any outward laws! Only because individuals are of one spirit can they live out their lives side by side. A free person lives in turst that the other free person belongs to the same spiritual world and that they will concur with each other in their intentions. Those who are free demand no agreement from their fellows but they expect it, because it is inherent in human nature. This is not meant to indicate the necessity of this or that outer arrangement. Rather, it is meant to indicate the ATTITUDE, the STATE OF THE SOUL, with which a human being, experiencing himself or herself amidst esteemed fellow human beings, can best do justice to human dignity.

I’m posting the present text from Steiner in the hope that it will begin to elucidate some of the difficulties those participating in the blog seem to be coming across: mainly the fact that as long as both parties remain within the context of rationalism without values, you can both undermine each other’s position. It’s a vicious circle or a dead end.

The Fourth Way System does not go into establishing norms for social behavior. It stopped where the individual seeker was meant to begin. It is not formatory, nor did it pretend to replace a doctrine with another doctrine. It pretends to give tools for each aspirant to find out for him or herself which is exactly what Robert Burton takes away from the members.

Steiner expanded with a great deal more freedom than Gurdjieff, Ouspensky or Collin. Although it might make many Anthroposophists jump out of their boots, there are no contradictions in the essence of both Systems, as there are no contradictions in true paths no matter how much they differ in practice.

The wonderful thing about Steiner is that he takes step by step into what for fourth way practitioners would come across in high state experiences with perfect logic and inspiration at the same time, which Robert Burton was never able to even scratch.

Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and Nicoll might not have been as thorough as Steiner but they at least were developed enough to respect each aspirant and not pretend to replace for them what they themselves could come to experience if they simply used the Ideas of the System. Robert Burton on the contrary mutilates his students into believing that they are simply not developed enough to even attempt to trust themselves.

The close-mindedness of the Fellowship is a huge detriment in the life of its participants and Daily Cardiac as much as others who have represented it, show the limitations that they as much as the Fellowship suffer. The fact that they stay in a circle of rationalizations without being able to rise above into how those concepts align with human values, shows the degree to which they have lost sight of such values. The fact that so called “positive emotions” were never reached or developed by Robert Burton or the Fellowship made everyone participating fall in a limbo of valuelessness for even the traditional values were discarded without replacement. It is this “valuelessness” what makes people fall into such deep states of depression.

The discussion is useless as long as no values are accepted. Frank and Daily Cardiac, what is dignity for you? Pride? Love? decency? harmony? Not as social dogmas but within your being, within your understanding?

The text is long and worth while reproducing. I’ll send some more in tomorrow.

190. Daily Cardiac - December 5, 2008

Jomo Piñata – 167:

“You seem to be so certain, my brother! I sense that ambiguity and uncertainty are hard for you. Which is a shame, because the human condition is inherently uncertain.”

Are you really serious with this comment? When have you ever expressed an uncertainty about any of your views? You are the one who has me all figured out. I am the one saying nothing in this arena can be proved or disproved.

191. Josiane - December 5, 2008

171- Wondering…continued
…RB had categorized The Power of Now as B Influence and specifically told students not to read that book.

192. up with which I will not put - December 5, 2008

Emotional Control
* Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings
* Make the person feel that if there are ever any problems, it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s
* Excessive use of guilt
* Excessive use of fear
* Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.

193. Daily Cardiac - December 5, 2008

Draco – 170:

“DC, regarding the “no one can leave a conscious school rightly” post. At least you are being honest here. I do believe that this is your point of view. Your other posts skirt around issues like this, using spurtious logic and relativity to attempt to make your views acceptable.

Of course, they aren’t acceptable to anyone outside of the Fellowship.”

I don’t see how you could know this last sentence. You can guess this is true regarding the ex members who post on a regular basis but you don’t know who else might be reading these words.

Draco – “Somewhere on the last page you claimed that we will discover which of us is correct (you or the ex-members) when we die.

That is also a sincere belief of yours–that salvation can only occur if you are up to date with your FOF payments when you die.”

I don’t think salvation has anything to do with up to date teaching payments at the time of death.

I also don’t think that people become any smarter or more enlightened (graduate) once they make their last teaching payment.

Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence.

194. James Mclemore - December 5, 2008

189. Daily Cardiac –

Jomo Piñata – 167:
“You seem to be so certain, my brother! I sense that ambiguity and uncertainty are hard for you. Which is a shame, because the human condition is inherently uncertain.”

DC – “Are you really serious with this comment? When have you ever expressed an uncertainty about any of your views? You are the one who has me all figured out. I am the one saying nothing in this arena can be proved or disproved.”
**
To me, comparing those two sets of ideas; yours and the statement by Jomo Pinata, are not even like apples and oranges DC. That is more like trying to compare apples and a small town somewhere in Nebraska. Come on now, you are the one studying scale. Your ideas of ‘proven/disproven’, and the much, much larger idea that has within it the uncertainty and mystery of our existence, are not on the same level, although I wonder if you may actually think they are. In fact, on the level or your ‘proven/disproven’, and your secret school that has now magically become invisible to us and that we can no longer see the truth and higher design of (proven to you by the fact we left it), there is actually no one here but you who are pretending that they ‘know’.
What becomes more apparent, because you are making it obvious, is that you are temporarily trapped in a closed, circular system of thought to such an extent that it appears you cannot allow yourself the freedom to even begin to move toward making the approach to the Uncertainty that I am pretty sure Jomo Pinata is speaking of.

195. frank - December 5, 2008

Good morning Migueeeel! It’s nice to know we are quite close. Let me know where i can meet you so i can let you play a very hard game! I like to play with assholes like you…probably you must be friend of harryasshole, aren’t you?
Migueeeeel….te quiero mucho…romperte la cavezita…looking forward to hear from ya!

PS. Miguel, to huele a pedo…i’m not your friend…make it clear in your stupid mind…and be carefull how you talk to me. i’m here with a purpose…don’t disturb me. it’s easy to talk here…let’s meet and i’ll teach you how to really use your ass and your mind, probably very similar.give me your phone number, piece of shit and you’ll listen to me directly.i’m here, very close to you.

Sorry everybody…i just got a little bit nervous. please moderator don’t ban me. i’ll meet this miguel and talk to him privately and i’ll be more quite in this blog…promise.

196. harryhindsight - December 5, 2008

Daily Cardigan,

“I don’t think salvation has anything to do with up to date teaching payments at the time of death.”

Have you read the death letter dear? The one that Bobby wrote to a dying student? Apparently his and your own opinion are seriously out of alignment, tsk, tsk.

197. harryhindsight - December 5, 2008

193 Frankfurter,

Well I guess you answered my question.

It’s retard isn’t it?

198. fofblogmoderator - December 5, 2008

186 & 191 are newly moderated

199. Yesri Baba - December 5, 2008

A little Hindu story about the stages of realization leading from neurosis to liberation:

A man sits petrified in terror within a darkened room with just enough light for him to see a coiled, venomous snake in the corner poised to strike him if he makes the slightest move.

A door is opened and the room is illuminated somewhat and the man sees that what he imagined was a deadly snake was but a coiled rope.

A light is turned on in the room and it is seen that both the snake and the rope are Brahman.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The story of creating a soul by the Evil Guru:

A man sits in a darkened room terrified of a deadly snake in the corner.

A door is opened and the poisonous viper is seen clearly and all the ways it can kill are illuminated. The only defence is for the man to do the sequence and do everything the Evil Guru tells him no matter how retarded it is.

A light is turned on and snakes are everywhere. The Evil Guru tells the man he must do the sequence more intensely and get control of the snakes and stick them up his butt.

200. Daily Cardiac - December 5, 2008

James Mclemore – 194:

JM – “Your ideas of ‘proven/disproven’, and the much, much larger idea that has within it the uncertainty and mystery of our existence, are not on the same level, although I wonder if you may actually think they are.”

I beg to differ; the issues discussed on the blog, which cannot be proved or disproved in this arena, but which ex members insist can be proved or disproved have everything to do with the uncertainty and mystery of our existence.

201. Yesri Baba - December 5, 2008

Clarification-

The man needs to do the sequence more intensely and get control of the snakes to stick them up the Evil Guru’s butt. In rereading it may have seemed the Evil Guru wanted the man to stick the snakes up his own butt, and that plain just ain’t right.

202. Yesri Baba - December 5, 2008

200

Dude, doesn’t your brain get all chaffed and swollen from stroking it so much?

203. harryhindsight - December 5, 2008

Daily Cardigan,

“Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence.”

The true path of presence?
Holy Mackerel you’re Jihad Haven aren’t you?

204. X-ray - December 5, 2008

We endorse the The Fellowship of Friends Investigation. Petition to all appropriate regulating agencies and elected officials of the State of California and the United States of America. World news media, and all world citizens concerned with abuses of religious power..

FBI
https://tips.fbi.gov/

IRS
http://www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=106778,00.html

Franchise Tax Board
https://webapp.ftb.ca.gov/informantdb/selection.aspx?Lang=en-US

INS
http://www.immigrationdirect.com/uscitizenship-contact.jsp

Department of Justice
Office of the Attorney General, State of California
Office of Victims’ Services
http://ag.ca.gov/victimservices/contact.php

U.S. Department of Labor
http://www.osha.gov/pls/osha7/ecomplaintform.html

Child Abuse
Childhelp’s National Child Abuse Hotline
800-4-A-CHILD (800-422-4453)

Office of the Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
http://gov.ca.gov/interact#email
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814
Phone: 916-445-2841
Fax: 916-558-3160 ( new number )

ICSA – International Cultic Studies Association
P.O. Box 2265
Bonita Springs, FL 34133
Phone: 239.514.3081
Fax: 305.393.8193
e-mail: mail@icsamail.

cbs5news
http://cbs5.com/

KNBCnews
http://www.knbc.com/contactus/index.html

KCRA 3 Television
http://www.kcra.com/station/1843006/detail.html

FOXnews
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html

205. harryhindsight - December 5, 2008

196, Frankfurter,

Oh my God this is unbelievable!

It’s you isn’t Robert, YOU’RE Frankfurter.

206. dragon - December 5, 2008

187. – 189.

Elena, your post:

“The discussion is useless as long as no values are accepted. Frank and Daily Cardiac, what is dignity for you? Pride? Love? decency? harmony? Not as social dogmas but within your being, within your understanding?”

A set of values is the glue of a community.

If the fundamental values of a community impede caritas, human dignity… you will find all the subtle nuances of violence (violence in speech, violence in interpersonal relations, e.g. a misuse of “personal warmth” as a means of manipulation).

Look at the FOF and look at the Blog or the people who left the FOF.

We don’t share the same values but the Blog people or the people who left the FOF are now able to experience the values of the “life people” once more. To cut off life people from the happier people is a procedure that severs the links between heart and brain.

Our daily lives are not perfect but I can share humanity and caritas with a beggar.

The interpersonal impoverishment of the leading class in the FOF is mirrored in the fashion:

Go for velvet, silk and luxury.

If the fundamental values deviate from each other it is nonetheless possible to say:

I disagreed with everything he/she said but he is a very good writer.

This is a sign of respect.

I can’t change the people like Robert, Girard, DC, Frank… but I can try to listen.

Isn’t it heart-rending how they (DC/frank) adjust their posts?

At first glance they try to discredit the posts of the Blog people but
deep inside their essence, they feel that they are in isolation:

(Heart (frozen) and brain (glowing esoteric “wisdom” composed/or stolen? of many pieces with the intention of what DC, Frank: MONEY, POWER, MANIPULATION?))

You are so lonely boys!

207. lauralupa - December 5, 2008

DC 200
Trying to talk DC out of his predicament is similar to trying to convince a Jihadist not to go blow himself up in a crowd of misbelievers. How can you prove to him convincingly that he is not doing a holy deed?
My unsettling question is: how much farther can someone like DC go in denying the evident, accepting the unacceptable and justifying the unjustifiable, based on his unshakeable faith in the existence of an ulterior invisible reality layer that condones anything Burton does on this earthly level?

208. Draco - December 5, 2008

DC 193
“I don’t think salvation has anything to do with up to date teaching payments at the time of death.
I also don’t think that people become any smarter or more enlightened (graduate) once they make their last teaching payment.
Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence.”

DRACO: Well I’d like to remind you about what you wrote earlier on this page,

DC 165
“If you understood RB or the FoF you would still be a member.
A person cannot understand a conscious school and leave it.
It would like deciding to stop breathing. You cannot do it naturally, you need aids like a rope around your neck.
People decide to leave schools because they don’t understand them. Or because they find they do not want to make the payment necessary to become more awake. It’s always about payment, an invisible law, much like F D. Everyone wants to be awake, but not everyone wants to pay for it. They want consciousness and the status quo, but they cannot have both at the same time; they cannot be both hot and cold at the same time. ”

You are saying that people who leave the FOF are not following the “truth path of presence”, (from whence cometh salvation). This is exactly the same as saying that being up to date with teaching payments guarantees salvation. If you don’t make your TPs, you are out. If you are out you didn’t understand the FOF or weren’t willing to make the payment. So you aren’t following the “true path of presence”. So you won’t be saved when you die. In specific FOF terms this means that you will go the moon or to the end of the consciousness queue or into eternal recurrence, rather than having your soul received by angels when you die, placed for 10,000 years in Limbo (which resembles the cellars of Chateau Lafit) and then put into another lifetime until you eventually get put into the Celestial City of Paradise where you can read the lost works of Sophocles.

209. Panorea - December 5, 2008

191. Josiane – December 5, 2008
171- Wondering…continued
…RB had categorized The Power of Now as B Influence and specifically told students not to read that book.
#################################################
But he has encouraged students to place bookmarks in it. The business of “helping ascending souls to paradise…”

210. elena - December 5, 2008

Part 4.

…….This is not meant to indicate the necessity of this or that outer arrangement. Rather, it is meant to indicate the ATTITUDE, the STATE OF THE SOUL, with which a human being, experiencing himself or herself amidst esteemed fellow human beings, can best do justice to human dignity.

There are many who will object: The concept of the free human being that you sketch is a chimera; it has been realized nowhere. We have to deal with real people, and the only morality to hope for in them comes when human beings obey an ethical commandment, when they formulate their ethical task as duty and do not freely follow their inclinations and their love. I do not doubt this at all. Only a blind man could. But if this is supposed to be the final insight, then away with all hypocrisy about “ethics.” You should simply say that, as long as human nature is not free, it must be forced into action. From a certain standpoint, it is irrelevant whether unfreedom is enforced through physical means or through moral laws, whether humans are unfree because they obey their limitless sexaul drive or because they are enchained by conventional morality. But let us not claim that people can correctly call their actions their own, if they are driven tot hem by a power other than themselves. Still, right in the midst of compulsion, certain human beings lift themselves up, free spirits, who, in the welter of custom, legal stricture, religious practice, and so forth, find themselves. They are free to the extent that they obey only themselves; they are unfree to the extent that they subject themselves to something else. Who of us can say that they are really free in all their actions? But in each of us there dwells a deeper being in whom the free human comes to expression.

Our life is made up of free and unfree actions. Yet we cannot think the concept of the human through to the end without arriving at the free spirit as the purest expression of human nature. Indeed, we are only truly human to the extent that we are free.

…….

As human beings we must each unite our own concept with the percept of “human” through our own activity. Concept and percept coincide here only if we ourselves make them coincide. But we can only do so if we have discovered the concept of the free spirit, which is our own concept. In the objective world, the percept is divided from the concept by the way we are organized: in cognition we overcome this division. The division is no less present in our subjective nature; we overcome it in the course of our development by bringing our own concept to full outward manifestation. Thus, the intellectual as well as the moral life of human beings leads us to the dual nature of humans: perceiving (immediate experience) and thinking. Intellectual life overcomes the duality through cognition; moral life overcomes it through the actual realization of the free spirit.

Humans remain in an incomplete state if they do not take in hand the transformative substance within themselves, and transform themselves through their own power. Nature makes human beings merely natural creatures; society makes them law-abiding actors; but they can only make themselves into free beings. At a certain stage of their development, nature releases human beings from her chains; society carries this development up to a further point; but human beings must give themselves the final polish.

Kant says, “Duty! You exalted, mighty name, you who contain nothing lovable, nothing ingratiatingly agreeable, but who demand submission, (you who) establish a law… before which all inclinations fall dumb, though in secret they might work against it!” To this, a human being, out of the consciousness of the free spirit, replies: “Freedom! You friendly, human name, you who contain everything morally beloved, everything that most dignifies my humanity, and who make me into no one’s servant, you who do not merely establish a law, but wait for what my moral love itself will recognize as law, because it feels unfree in the face of every merely imposed law!”

Philistines, who see morality embodied in something externally fixed, might even see a free spirit as a dangerous person. They will do so, however, only because their view is limited to a particular epoch. If they could look beyond it, they would immediately find that free spirits need to move beyond the laws of the state as little as the philistines themselves, and that they never have to place themselves in real opposition to these laws. For the laws of the state, like all other objectively ethical laws, all sprang from the intuitions of free spirits. There is no law enforced by family authority that was not once intuitively conceived and formulates as such by an ancestor. Even the conventional laws of morality are first established by specific persons. And the laws of the state always arise in the heads of state officials. There minds have set up laws over other people, and no one becomes unfree except by forgetting that origin and making the laws either into extra-human commandments, into objective ethical concepts of duty independent of human participation, or into the commanding voice of one’s own falsely conceived, mystically compelling inner self. But those who do not overlook the origin, but seek the human being within it, will see it as belonging to the same world of ideas from which they too draw their moral intuitions. If they believe that they have better intuitions, then they try to substitute their own for the existing ones; if they find that the existing ones are justified, they act in accordance with them as if they were their own.

We must not establish the formula that human beings exist to realize an ethical world order cut off from themselves. Anyone who claimed as much would still be standing, in relation to the science of humankind, at the same point at which natural science stood when it believed that a bull has horns in order to butt. Fortunately, natural science has done away with such concepts of purpose. It is harder for ethics similarly to free itself. But just as horns do not exist because of butting, but butting exists through the horns, so human beings do not exist because of morality, but morality exists through human beings. Free human beings act morally because they have moral ideas, but they do not act in order for morality to arise. Human individuals, with the moral ideas belonging to their being, are the precondition for the moral world order.

The human individual is the source of all morality and the center of earthly life. States and societies exist because they turn out to be the necessary consequence of individual life. That states and societies then react upon individual life is just as understandable as the fact that butting, which exist because to bulll’s horns, reacts upon the further development of the horns which would otherwise become stunted with prolonged disuse. In the same way, individuals would become stunted if they led isolated existences outside human community. It is precisely for this that the social order is formed, so that it can then react favourably on the individual.

R. Steiner. Intuitive Thinking as a Spiritual Path

211. elena - December 5, 2008

Frank and Daily Cardiac, what is dignity for you? Pride? Love? decency? harmony? Not as social dogmas but within your being, within your understanding?

Please answer the question.

212. elena - December 5, 2008

Now more free
To be
For Love
Binds me
To you
But you
free me
by holding on
to something else.

People are like trees on the road
where shade and nurture can flow
but not to stop one from walking.

213. elena - December 5, 2008

It’s interesting that in Robert Burton’s choice of music for his Arc: The Fellowship of Friends, the sound of the human voice was done away with.

This is no coincidence but another symptom of the horror of his condition and those of his followers.

The physical world is a faithful mirror of the condition of the soul.

214. Mick Danger - December 5, 2008

Apologies. I’m a sincere aspirant in search of a real teacher and I’m beginning to think there is no such thing. Anyway, I am young, comely and have a lot of money. The only drawbacks are a little guilibility, very small hands, and a huge heterosexual cock.
Any suggestions or advice?

215. Jomo Piñata - December 5, 2008

Jomo Piñata wrote:

“You seem to be so certain, my brother! I sense that ambiguity and uncertainty are hard for you. Which is a shame, because the human condition is inherently uncertain.”

Lacuna Piñata wrote:

Are you really serious with this comment? When have you ever expressed an uncertainty about any of your views? You are the one who has me all figured out. I am the one saying nothing in this arena can be proved or disproved.

You are saying nothing said in this forum can be proved or disproved. That’s a naked assertion without argument or reasoning to back it up. I have specifically addressed that assertion, which I contend is flat-out false, at 56/184, but you have never acknowledged that the matter can even be discussed or debated. You are just asserting that what you say is true and your attitude is that the point is not subject to debate. So the status of our conversation is that I have presented a conclusion, supported by reason, and you have presented the opposite conclusion, supported by nothing except your attitude of certainty. Brother, that’s fundamentalist. The role of “reasoning” in the fundamentalist worldview is simply to find ways to affirm the conclusion. One starts with the conclusion and “reasons” from the conclusion to “facts.” That’s what you do.

216. whalerider - December 5, 2008

Daily Bread:
You want proof and the proof is right before your eyes!

Look at this symbol, it actually comes from higher mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yin_yang.svg

Nothing, including consciousness, is so absolutely black and white as you and Burton suggest.

There is sleep in consciousness. Burton has proven that.

There is consciousness in sleep. This blog has proven that.

I repeat: The yin and the yang both contain a piece of the other within each. It’s the guy who thinks he’s Jesus Christ who’s in imagination (and the person like you who believes him.)

Looking for Burton’s imposed meaning in the arbitrary appearance of a symbol like the four sided square of your bathroom tiles and thinking it is a “shock” from “higher forces”: is a bit like a person in psychosis looking for personal symbolic meaning in billboards.

BTW, have you found yourself being more “present” in the shower since I mentioned that?

Ultimately, nobody knows what happens after death. We as humans must all learn to live with that void, one of the most difficult tasks of our lives, or spend our lives running from that realization until it catches up with us willy nilly. Possessing the exclusive keys to “paradise” or “heaven” is a con game, and a good one, but the more you grip that idea, like sand the faster it runs through your fingers.

Elena:

True spirituality is like the trees on the road
where shade and nurture can flow
but not to stop anyone from walking home.

217. loserbaby900 - December 5, 2008

208 Draco

“and then put into another lifetime until you eventually get put into the Celestial City of Paradise where you can read the lost works of Sophocles.”

I’ll take the moon. The view sounds much better.

If we don’t have a soul, what is left to go to the moon? This is too hard.

218. veramente - December 5, 2008

209 Panorea

191. Josiane – December 5, 2008
171- Wondering…continued
…RB had categorized The Power of Now as B Influence and specifically told students not to read that book.
#################################################
But he has encouraged students to place bookmarks in it. The business of “helping ascending souls to paradise…”
—————————————————
I think E. Tolle could have a say about the bookmarks.
Piggy riding? how legal is that? are the FOF members asking permission to the bookstore manager to insert these tickets to hell?

219. fofblogmoderator - December 5, 2008

216 is newly moderated

220. aline - December 5, 2008

#181 Jomo Pinata

Nice article. thank you

221. Jomo Piñata - December 5, 2008

“The need for certainty – for absolute, letter-of-the-law certainty – may be satisfied by fundamentalism or fanaticism; it cannot be satisfied by the mainline churches. Mainstream religions quarrel over whether women should be ordained priests or rabbits, and offer conflicting views about everything from homosexuality to the death penalty, abortion rights, pacifism and “just” wars. As a result they frequently (if inadvertently) leave the burden of choice and discrimination to the individual believer. But the fanatic, the fundamentalist and the cultist are able to say: “This is how it is; it can be no other way; I am certain.” A lot of people are willing to abdicate reason and deny their own experience for what they regard as the privilege of being relieved of the oppressive burden of choice – and for the privilege of being one of the chosen few who possess the truth, the only truth.”

Link at 57/181

222. Jomo Piñata - December 5, 2008

Lacuna Piñata wrote:

A person cannot understand a conscious school and leave it.

Barbara Grizzuti Harrison wrote (see link at 57/181):

But the fanatic, the fundamentalist and the cultist are able to say: “This is how it is; it can be no other way; I am certain.”

223. Miguel - December 5, 2008

Frank, not been a ” toro español ” you seem quit a brave bull. you attac every thing that move. I’m not a TORERO, but I like fighting bulls, but no a stupid one like you. Been a “student” you get identifait very soon dear. You still have not see me, only “mi muleta” and you attac just air. May be, one day,(it does not matter to me when), we will play a bullfigth on the Arena. Let time say us who will play the bull part o the TORERO roll. Have a nice dream, “amigo”.

224. Miguel - December 5, 2008

Frank, just in case you were an air- fither on Cuba, may be we have meet before this “game”.

225. nigel harris price - December 5, 2008

I’ve been away since Wenesday morning for an appendectomy. What a pain. And I really mean it folks!…..Nigel

226. Miguel - December 5, 2008

I think it’s a good idea to have many of these posts in spanish language. Many follower don’t have access to them just because language.
At this moment I don’t know how to work with it, if anybody show me the way I’ll put time and money on it.

227. aline - December 5, 2008

#225 Nigel
take care.

228. elena - December 5, 2008

Miguel, FOF moderator

Other blogs were started in other languages, people participating in their own language would be better than having to translate a lot, although I agree with you, there’s good material here that would serve well, please go ahead with that idea if you wish.

Steve, do you think the Sheik would consider opening a page for Spanish speakers?

Yo, francamente estoy exhausta de darle palo al caballo pero si se juntan algunos a escribir depronto puedo aportar algo. Me gusta la idea porque fuera de España estan todos los centros de lationamerica y Mexico que necesitan una mano. Un abrazo, Clara

Luis Arturo y otros de Mexico pueden querer participar. Quiza conoces algunos.

229. Mick Danger - December 5, 2008

Muy bien, Miguel, gracias. Quiere una cerveza?
Keep posting here. Stomp the mustard man.

230. Miguel - December 5, 2008

Para el que guste:
Amor Brujo 1′ 40″

231. Miguel - December 5, 2008

Hola Mick, gracias. no se cuando ni donde, pero acepto tu cerveza con mucho gusto.

214 Mick
If you feel you are on risk of getting atrap in the FoF, better start growing your bear? (“barba”) and keep it until you get out.

232. Daily Cardiac - December 5, 2008

Lauralupa – 207:

“Trying to talk DC out of his predicament is similar to trying to convince a Jihadist not to go blow himself up in a crowd of misbelievers. How can you prove to him convincingly that he is not doing a holy deed?
My unsettling question is: how much farther can someone like DC go in denying the evident, accepting the unacceptable and justifying the unjustifiable, based on his unshakeable faith in the existence of an ulterior invisible reality layer that condones anything Burton does on this earthly level?”

Shakespeare – “Methinks the lady doth protest too much”

I’m stating my beliefs and you are stating yours. Where is your spirit of debate? Are you upset over the contradiction I gently chided you about?

In your mind I am no different from a Jihadist and in my mind you are that. Where do we go from there?

Whence cometh proof?

I say we will all know the whole story one day. Our Makers would not be so cruel as to not inform us of the truth in this matter. “Ask and it shall be given unto you.”

That day is not here.

Do my words sound like a Jihadist taking matters into their own hands, or someone content with the truth coming out on it’s own terms?

233. loserbaby900 - December 5, 2008

222 Jomo

“Barbara Grizzuti Harrison wrote (see link at 57/181):

But the fanatic, the fundamentalist and the cultist are able to say: “This is how it is; it can be no other way; I am certain.””

It is not just the FOF that offers this trap. The Fourth Way offers the certainty of having all the answers. It is a religion waiting for a guru to use it to establish his cult. Some escape the school but are still trapped in the cult mindset – the fourth way fundamentalists.

234. lauralupa - December 5, 2008

DC
It all depends on where you want to go.
I for sure am not budging. I know what I know and I have seen what I have seen. I have no doubts whatsoever about the evil nature of the FoF operation, and I am not ashamed to say it, not one bit. Call me an Antiburton Jihadist, I can take it.
So you better learn to live with that, because as long as you are here I am gonna ride you like a dog bitch.
But you enjoy that, right? So no harm done, I hope.
The truth of the matter, dear friend, is that you are simply not ready to face the truth staring you in the face.
It’s calling you, naked and plain, in this very moment, here and now.
But you’d rather wait, my little Hamlet.

Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.

Me, I am ready for the floor.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=knQuxZj9rTA

235. Miguel - December 5, 2008

A mis 53 años, me resulta muy extraño “Ver” que sigo siendo un aprendiz.

236. Kid Shelleen - December 5, 2008

Daily Card wrote:

“I say we will all know the whole story one day. Our Makers would not be so cruel as to not inform us of the truth in this matter. “Ask and it shall be given unto you.””

If we could rid ourselves of this notion for more than just a second, we might have a chance at understanding something.

Also, you write “Our Makers would not be so cruel as to not inform us of the truth in this matter.” But, they would be cruel enough to send the suffering and confused who had not embraced them, or understood them rightly, or not got down on their knees enough, to hell, the moon, Chico. I guess they’re just not lucky enough, no?

How about we throw away our ratty old copies of the Bible, The Fourth Way, The Baghavagita, The Koran, The Upanishads, etc. and run to our windows, open them and scream to whichever daddy we think is out there looking over our shoulders, “I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take it anymore!”

Namaste.

237. elena - December 5, 2008

Y que hay de malo en eso Miguel?
Que tal si se nos fuera la capacidad de sorprendernos?

238. whalerider - December 5, 2008

Daily Bread:
“Do my words sound like a Jihadist taking matters into their own hands..”

…or the Christian fundamentalist who bombs abortion clinics?

No, your words sound like an insurance salesman…”what if you got sick and couldn’t work? Who’d pay your bills?” You play upon people’s fears with the “what if” game.

Fear eats the soul.

Cult followers like you work your impoverished asses off indoctrinated to think your reward is in heaven, while your cult leader lives a life of luxury, traveling the world with a seemingly endless supply of delicious, tasty fine, imported rape victims…all at your expense.

Such a deal…for him! Wouldn’t you like to be traveling the world like him…without having to service his sex addiction like those poor souls in the photos?

BTW, a true Jihadist, according to the majority of Muslim clerics, is anyone who struggles in themselves against the forces that would divide them from Allah…and that would also include to renounce Burton and the FOF, Inc. or anyone who promotes the idea that there are intermediaries with exclusive access, “gods”, or “angels hovering over the dinner table that only I can see”. There is only One God, Allah..the Absolute..the Tao…or whatever name you use…and we all have equal access…in this lifetime!

So yes, as a Jihadist you must take matters into your own hands, take responsibility for your own struggle, and make your own connection…which translates as connecting the lower to the higher within and not dividing them.

I repeat: if you want to “see” a person’s level of spirituality, study how they react to anyone who disagrees with them.

239. Yesri Baba - December 5, 2008

231 Charlie Manson Jr.

“Do my words sound like a Jihadist taking matters into their own hands, or someone content with the truth coming out on it’s own terms?”

…………..

No, your words sound like someone who is a brainwashed cult member.

240. Miguel - December 5, 2008

El ego es un mono que salta a travaés de la selva:
totalmente fascinado por el reino de los sentidos,
cambia de un deseo a otro,
de un conflicto a otro,
de una idea centrada en sí misma a la siguiente.
Si lo amenazas, realmente teme por su vida.
Deja partir a ese mono.
Deja partir los sentidos.
Deja partir los deseos.
Deja partir los conflictos.
Deja partir las ideas.
Deja partir la ficción de la vida y de la muerte.
Permanece simplemente en el centro, observando.
Y después olvídate de que estás en el.
Lao Tse

241. harryhindsight - December 5, 2008

“Do my words sound like a Jihadist taking matters into their own hands”

No, you sound like a woolly cardigan taking knitters to fruit stands.

242. fofblogmoderator - December 6, 2008

230 & 234 are newly moderated

243. Jomo Piñata - December 6, 2008

loserbaby900/233

I agree totally and completely with what you wrote.

244. somebody - December 6, 2008

Wondering, you missed these gems from The Call of the Loon:

“Even though we are making maximum effort, it is Influence C who control most of our ‘I’s, including work ‘I’s.”

The stock market closed at 444 yesterday. It was Influence C signing their work. This is a license plate we encountered in Mexico saying “RN-44-371.” Why does it not say 365? Because it means using the sequence every day of the year – 365+6. That is how Influence C work.

***

“It is an obvious absurdity to be conspicuous with Influence C hovering invisibly around us.”

If we could only remember this, then we might not engage so freely in unnecessary talk. I very much like Gregory of Nissa’s thought: “If evil was presented to us as it really is, unadorned with some semblance of good, we would not fly to it so easily.” If imagination was presented to us as it really is – a very deceptive, shadowy figure trying to break our presence – we would not listen to it so easily. It is a very beautiful angle. *Here is a group of us in Palenque. I am making a heart with my fingers. I detected Leonid fifty to seventy-five meters away from me taking the photograph.

***
“We are all children dealing with the bully of lower self.”

Fortunately, Influence C are on our side. *Here we see a young boy in Palenque with the number ‘seventy-two’ on his t-shirt, representing the control of passions. Palenque was a place to control the passions, as Apollo is for us. Influence C give us many names and numbers wherever we go.

***

“When we use the sequence or one of the thirty work ‘I’s and succeed in reaching presence, it is because the third eye emerged in resonse to our effort.”

Guerric of Igny said, “He who created you, is created in you.” * A MExican magazine cover features a lady with one eye. She reminds me of Diana Vishneva, the Russian Ballet dancer. I had a dream last week in which Leonardo was pleading for my help, and I used it today to remind me to do everything I could to assist his efforts to help me to be present. Influence C plead for our help because it makes their job a little easier, and certainly more effective.

***

“Our best friend is our own presence.” [Myriam Borges, Valencia]

Hafiz said, “You are with the friend now. Learn what actions of yours delight him” – long BE. With the sequence one is never alone – one has one’s self for a companion. *Here are Asaf and I drinking coconut juice.

***
A useful aim is not to toss to other people. It brings out something unrelated to control of centers.”

The jacks of centers like to casually toss things around to promote sleep. *Here I am feeding one of our water buffaloes. I visit them every evening at 4:30. Kenneth Wygal and I call them the ‘girls”. On Monday we will have fifty of them here, all less than two years old.

***
“Presence does not have to die.”

That is why Influence C is here – so that we will never die. *Here I am at a teaching event in Mexico City. *Here I am in Tulim. I seem to be showing four teeth!

245. somebody - December 6, 2008

Sorry,
a license plate should say: RB-44-371.

246. Yesri Baba - December 6, 2008

Guerric of Igny said: “I’d like to buy a vowel”.

247. harryhindsight - December 6, 2008

“Here is a group of us in Palenque. I am making a heart with my fingers. I detected Leonid fifty to seventy-five meters away from me He almost got away again.”

248. harryhindsight - December 6, 2008

“A useful aim is not to toss off other people. It brings out something unrelated to control of centers.”

249. elena - December 6, 2008

It was good while it lasted!

Fundamentalist non fundamentalists are just as bad as fundamentalists.

250. Jomo Piñata - December 6, 2008

With the sequence one is never alone – one has one’s self for a companion.

Plus there’s always someone to tell what to do!

251. dick moron - December 6, 2008

244. Somebody
Burton said:
I had a dream last week in which Leonardo was pleading for my help, and I used it today to remind me to do everything I could to assist his efforts to help me to be present.
—————-
This reminds of the time Bob told me that he had a dream the night before, that he was a cockatoo with bright plumage, like the Edward Lear bird prints on the wall at his pad. He sounded pleased by the dream.
————-
Bob said:
Here I am feeding one of our water buffaloes. I visit them every evening at 4:30. Kenneth Wygal and I call them the ‘girls”.
——–
Good lord, I wonder what old Ken W. does with those “girls”???
Ken you should be fishing in your old age.

252. elena - December 6, 2008

So much talk and you haven’t even signed the petition. What’s the point of all the data?

253. Daily Cardiac - December 6, 2008

WhaleRider – 238:

“No, your words sound like an insurance salesman…”what if you got sick and couldn’t work? Who’d pay your bills?” You play upon people’s fears with the “what if” game.

Fear eats the soul.”

A lot of people have found insurance to be a savior.

Regret also eats the soul.

254. harryhindsight - December 6, 2008

“It is an obvious absurdity to be conspicuous with Influence C hoovering invisibly around us. We are a lot of work for influence C so try not to drop any crumbs my darlings”

255. harryhindsight - December 6, 2008

Daily Cardigan

“A lot of people have found insurance to be a savior.”

O.K., you’re not Jihad Haven you’re Michael Ma__oy right?

256. Daily Cardiac - December 6, 2008

Draco – 208:

DC -“I don’t think salvation has anything to do with up to date teaching payments at the time of death.
I also don’t think that people become any smarter or more enlightened (graduate) once they make their last teaching payment.
Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence.”

Draco – “You are saying that people who leave the FOF are not following the “truth path of presence”, (from whence cometh salvation). This is exactly the same as saying that being up to date with teaching payments guarantees salvation. If you don’t make your TPs, you are out. If you are out you didn’t understand the FOF or weren’t willing to make the payment. So you aren’t following the “true path of presence”. So you won’t be saved when you die.

One problem encountered when you read my posts is that you are starting out by seeing how you can deconstruct them, trying to find the inconsistencies in my thinking instead of just reading what is written and evaluating it based on that.

What I said was simple and you needn’t add conditions to it.

What you are engaging in is called an Ad Hominem argument. It happens so much on the blog that I hardly recall when it does not happen. And People are brazen about engaging in it.

Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence. This is what I believe.

Obviously I feel the FoF provides me with the environment that puts me in the best position to carry this out. But my writing out a TP check does not change me. The efforts to be present, to transform friction, to accept what I cannot change; all these things contribute to whatever salvation is in store for me.

257. dick moron - December 6, 2008

256. Daily Cardiac

But my writing out a TP check does not change me. The efforts to be present, to transform friction, to accept what I cannot change; all these things contribute to whatever salvation is in store for me.
_____________________________
The Salvation Army used to have a pretty good thrift store in Yuba City.
I had to shop there after I wrote my TP check because I was broke.

258. Yesri Baba - December 6, 2008

“But my writing out a TP check does not change me.”

Obviously, but it may buy a water buffalo. Now there is an ascending ‘octave’.

259. Ill Never Tell - December 6, 2008

104. Old Fish in the Sea
On the subject of Frank.

What Frank says, he can only be speaking about himself. That is, he speaks for himself. He cannot know from reading the blog what other people are doing besides and beyond their writing here. So, what he writes, also, speaks TO himself. In other words, if he says that those writing here are idiots and wasting their time – don’t they have better things to do, it is he who is an idiot and wasting his time and so forth. As a man speaks, so he is.

– – – – – –

‘Bob told me that he had a dream the night before, that he was a cockatoo. . .’

Are you sure that wasn’t a ‘cockatwohundred?’
You know, the ‘endless fountain of immortal drink.’

– – – – – –

“But my writing out a TP check does not change me.”

Yea, you can say that again. ‘Does not change me’ like, I’m so broke I can’t spare change. Try giving the shirt off your back. What ever happened to that work phrase: Learn how to turn on a dime and give two cents change?

– – – – – –

I was the man i’ the moon when time was.
The Tempest
William Shakespeare

260. elena - December 6, 2008

211. elena – December 5, 2008
Frank and Daily Cardiac, what is dignity for you? Pride? Love? decency? harmony? Not as social dogmas but within your being, within your understanding?

Please answer the question.

261. Miguel - December 6, 2008

Hi Robert,:
¿why are you so afraid that you send to this public square so many of your dogs?
As you say44 angels work with you, and, as you say you are an angel yourself. The Celestial City of Paradise is waiting for you for the eternity. So, why are you so worry about what simple and mortal been ( like all of us)can say or not say here?.
Please, could some one make me to understand for what reason a God, like REB, need the protection of followers with 9 mm semiautomatic guns keeping safe his back?

262. elena - December 6, 2008

Miguel, They have to protect him from his lower self!

263. In the wind - December 6, 2008

Frank

I do not know you and wonder

Why such a reaction?/
Where is it coming from?
When w/I e attack there is a fear?
What is that fear?
What are you covering up with your language?
What pain is behind that?

Sit quietly (do not quite was that Freudianic?) and ask your self these questions
I do not expect and answer just… questioning

What are you attacking and what are defending?
Where is your conscience?

Sit still and listen….
Our healer in us
Our spirituality is in us, as is our spirit.

We gave it away, time to reclaim?

264. Miguel - December 6, 2008

Hola Clara,
Yo entré en la fof a principios del año 82 en Londres. G y Ba—-a H. dirigían en ese momento el Centro en The Hall Farm. Conozco personalmente a muchos compañeros de habla hispana, pero no creo haber tenido el gusto de conocer a Luis Arturo todavia.
Creo que vale la pena intentar crear un blog en Catellano.Intentaré madurar la idea.
De forma independiente, aquí hay ya tanta calidad de material y cantidad que dificilmente se repitirá en otro lugar, cualquiera que sea la lengua. Sigo pensando en como trabajar con la idea.
Un fuerte abrazo y gracias por existir.

265. ton - December 6, 2008

re: the shill committee:

“There is one thing I know for sure, and from experience: the sense of persecution is kind of gel that holds people in fringe groups together. Perversely, it offers them proof that they are special; the “hatred” of the worlds is proof to them of the love of God.”
B G Harrison

that being said, and nevertheless:

256 daily card-again&again&… ad nauseum

“Salvation depends on how much a person has followed the true path of presence. This is what I believe.”

re: ‘salvation,’ and inconsistency in your thinking; your idea of salvation refers to something in the future, apparently you connect the idea of salvation to ‘another life,’ not this one. your accepted dogma/belief system includes the idea that maybe in the next life, if you’re a good little robot and do what daddy/momma robot says, you’ll move a rung up the ladder to be ‘man # so & so’ and then you’ll be one step closer to ‘consciousness.’ right?

if you really understood anything about ‘presence,’ you would know that salvation is in the present, that’s RIGHT NOW. but you sacrifice your possibility for salvation the moment you project it into some programmed notion of future salvation. this is a typical feature of the fundamentalist mentality; you believe that if you follow the prescription, the ‘system,’ the formula, the ‘sequence,’ the ‘commandments’ etc, etc, then later you will be rewarded in the life after this life.

here’s a clue; any possibility for your salvation is here, now. when you realize this (read: make it real), you don’t need a middle man like that miscreant you affectionately refer to as ‘the teacher.’ it is ironic and paradoxical that you sacrifice salvation in the present moment by your held belief and notion of future ‘salvation.’ keep doing ‘the sequence’ dear… (psst… you’re hypnotized).

266. Draco - December 6, 2008

DC, my comments were not ad hominem, but yes I certainly deconstruct your arguments. Robert’s view of salvation is well known–die in good standing the FOF. What I am saying is that this view (and orthodox FOF views in general) lies behind the arguments that you present, but you avoid presenting this directly, so you skirt around beliefs that are unacceptable to those outside of the FOF and use a framework of spurious logic to work around these awkward aspects. And that’s why I deconstruct your posts.

267. Daily Cardiac - December 6, 2008

Draco – 266:

“you skirt around beliefs that are unacceptable to those outside of the FOF and use a framework of spurious logic to work around these awkward aspects. And that’s why I deconstruct your posts.”

You may be giving yourself too much credit; it remains to be proved whether you succeed in deconstructing anything.

What I said was this – “you are starting out by seeing how you can deconstruct them, trying to find the inconsistencies in my thinking instead of just reading what is written and evaluating it based on that.”

It is proved (by yourself) that deconstruction is your aim.

And what prey tell absolves you from ad hominem? Your mere stating that you are not engaging in it?

If anyone is being spurious it’s you. You refuse to acknowledge that your views are at best just as subjective as mine.

268. elena - December 6, 2008

Miguel,

Cada idioma como cada esencia trae sus virtudes y limitaciones. Sería bello escuchar la esencia hispana en relación a esta crisis. Bienvenido el esfuerzo, me cuentas como te apoyo, aunque como con cualquier iniciativa, nada es facil!

Steve, FOF Moderator,
I’m still wondering if you think the Sheik would consider opening a Spanish speaking blog. Maybe if it had no moderation and you just helped us turn the page, we could move along with it? Miguel might also know someone willing to moderate it and do the computer work? Miguel also offered some money to get it going perhaps for animam recro it it’s necessary?

269. Madam X - December 6, 2008

“Are You Involved With A Psychopath?”

Stop The Madness

By: Michael G. Conner, Psy.D

http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Articles/Psychopath.htm

I am wondering how much of the sociopath is in each of us after reading this article and many people who addressed this issue in the last weeks?

For example the test done in Berkley by Zim…..show us all that we could be a perpetrator?

Or another question is …ho many of the characteristics do you have if you go down the list of the article on sociopaths?

I scored 3 out of 20?

Is not this an interesting article.

Especially the fact of no regrets and no remorse…that is what I saw with Robert Burton when people started leaving in November 2006.

No regrets and no remorse and no emotional response to the people who left and tha lack of empathy….

Frank and Daily Card i look forward to your reponses.

Sincerely,
One who was in
One who was out
One who is

270. Daily Cardiac - December 6, 2008

To ton:

One simple question – Do you believe in an afterlife?

271. elena - December 6, 2008

Ton: “here’s a clue; any possibility for your salvation is here, now. when you realize this (read: make it real), you don’t need a middle man like that miscreant you affectionately refer to as ‘the teacher.’ it is ironic and paradoxical that you sacrifice salvation in the present moment by your held belief and notion of future ’salvation.’ keep doing ‘the sequence’ dear… (psst… you’re hypnotized).”

Daily Cardiac and other FOF members who continue to think that you need a Robert to get to heaven:

You’re just too lazy to make the effort yourselves so you had to find a middle man, but instead of going up, you sink deeply everyday.

Didn’t the protestants solve that problem already? Why are you going backwards in history? Robert Burton might proclaim self remembering at every event, but he doesn’t allow you “to be” in practice or have you had the possibility to express yourself ever in the Fellowship? And then he leans on influence C a little more each day so that you definitely don’t even consider trusting yourself shunned by these greater Gods before which you don’t stand a chance, especially himself.

Of course, if what you enjoy in life is cleaning up Robert’s ass day after day, you are free to do so. What you’re no longer free to do is to find other idiots to brainwash them to do what you’re doing. That is why the petition will try to stop you.

272. nigel harris price - December 6, 2008

269 Daily Cardiac

I’ll step in here, if I may! There is no before- now- or after-life. There is always what IS.. People who try to sell you the afterlife are propogating the age-old Western World View of Religion. Do what Daddy says and everything will be alright. How DO YOU KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN and why do you not TRUST WHAT IS NOW instead of making a farce out of Being Present?…..Nigel.

273. elena - December 6, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

One simple question – Do you believe in an afterlife?

Do Fellowship members really eat this Catholic puritanism? Using the afterlife to threaten people or stimulate them to continue as slaves?

You really ARE going back in history, not even Latins eat that bullshit any more!

274. ton - December 6, 2008

who’s to say what’s to come? there are plenty of notions about it…. and “there is no limit to the absurdity of what people will believe.” maybe there’s nothing, maybe there’s heaven /hell… maybe it depends on what you believe in this life, whatever the case, as the blind man said ‘we’ll see.’ belief lends a sense of meaning, a reason to be, to live ‘as if…’ but to answer your ‘simple question,’ what i believe about an afterlife doesn’t concern you… why should it? and it’s beside the point (again). the point of my posting was; ‘salvation’ is contained in the present… and how projection of the idea of salvation onto some future event is a form of distraction…

275. harryhindsight - December 6, 2008
276. Jomo Piñata - December 6, 2008

the time Bob told me that he had a dream the night before, that he was a cockatoo with bright plumage

Now this is profound. This dream shows him that he is, first and foremost, a parrot!

277. Daily Cardiac - December 6, 2008

Elena – 273:

Although I didn’t ask you the question – Do you believe in an afterlife? I take it from your words that you don’t. Is that an accurate assumption?

278. Daily Cardiac - December 6, 2008

Jomo:

If he’s a parrot it must be for Influence C since they are the ones he references the most; not bad work if you can get it.

279. dick moron - December 6, 2008

276. Daily Cardiac

Do consider C influence to be a group of individual angels with distinct personalities who speak in words directly to Robert Burton?
Do you believe that Leonardo da Vinci rides around on Burton’s shoulder like Burton has claimed?
I’m curious since you seem to be a man of strong faith in the words of Burton.

280. Daily Cardiac - December 6, 2008

dick moron – 277:

“Do you consider C influence to be a group of individual angels with distinct personalities who speak in words directly to Robert Burton?”

They do not have vocal cords, or any kind of cellular traits. But they are master communicators.

“Do consider C influence to be a group of individual angels with distinct personalities who speak in words directly to Robert Burton?”

I do.

“Do you believe that Leonardo da Vinci rides around on Burton’s shoulder like Burton has claimed?”

Metaphorically yes.

I do believe Influence C has the ability to make Hansbrough miss ten open lay ups in a row. After all they invented the patten for Hansbrough.

281. ton - December 6, 2008

around 278… dc… wrong again, ‘hansbrough’ and ‘lay ups’ is just another bullshit distraction… and of course beside the point.

“We were told to be ‘separate from the world…’ The organization was the sole source of our instruction and self-esteem. We didn’t vote and didn’t salute the flag and… didn’t hang out with “worldly” people. And if we did any of those things, we were disfellowshipped – excommunicated. And then no one from the organization – not out mother or our father or our sister or our brother or our best friend or our child – was ever allowed to speak to us again….

What would one risk to avoid that?”

B G Harrison

the internet is a wonderful resource… do your research ‘dear’ –you are in a garden-variety cult. eventually ‘the light will go on’ for you, if you’re ‘lucky.’

282. whalerider - December 6, 2008

Daily Bread:
“Regret also eats the soul.”

So does guilt, for that matter.

“But they are master communicators.”

…except when it comes to predicting the future.

“Do you believe in the afterlife?”

As I said prior, this is an unknown.

One of the most difficult tasks we as humans face is to accept this void in our knowledge and the inevitability of our own death. If you cannot accept this unknown and are afraid of death and the unknown, then there are droves of people who will step up and offer you a ready-made version of the afterlife to relieve you of the discomfort and fear so you can go back to sleep. That’s what insurance and religion does, you pay for peace of mind. There is no salvation in that. Salvation comes through Jihad.

The FOF’s payment for peace of mind is your conscience.

283. Ill Never Tell - December 6, 2008

“274. Jomo Piñata – December 6, 2008

‘the time Bob told me that he had a dream the night before, that he was a cockatoo with bright plumage’

Now this is profound. This dream shows him that he is, first and foremost, a parrot!”

And Arkansas Bob’s residence is Parrot’s Hilton with all the glitz.

284. fofblogmoderator - December 6, 2008

269 & 275 are newly moderated

285. dragon - December 6, 2008

272. elena – December 6, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

“One simple question – Do you believe in an afterlife?”

——————————————————-

Elena, perhaps I am sarcastically but the German word for “After” is anus.

Does DC believes in an afterlife? I think it is a delicately flavoured question and DC is backwards in coming.

286. dick moron - December 6, 2008

280. Daily Cardiac
I do believe Influence C has the ability to make Hansbrough miss ten open lay ups in a row. After all they invented the patten for Hansbrough.
_______
That’s funny! But it won’t happen.
But N.C. State did beat the Phi Slamma Jamma Houston team with Olaijawon and Drexler to win it all in 1983. Ask Bob, he watched with me and he was pretty pissed at the outcome.

287. Yesri Baba - December 6, 2008

280. Daily Cardiac – December 6, 2008
dick moron – 277:

“Do you consider C influence to be a group of individual angels with distinct personalities who speak in words directly to Robert Burton?”

They do not have vocal cords, or any kind of cellular traits. But they are master communicators.

“Do consider C influence to be a group of individual angels with distinct personalities who speak in words directly to Robert Burton?”

I do.

“Do you believe that Leonardo da Vinci rides around on Burton’s shoulder like Burton has claimed?”

Metaphorically yes.

I do believe Influence C has the ability to make Hansbrough miss ten open lay ups in a row. After all they invented the patten for Hansbrough

—————————–

I apologize for calling DC Charlie Manson Jr..

Sorry Charlie Manson.

288. Jomo Piñata - December 6, 2008

If he’s a parrot it must be for Influence C [snip]

Awk! What fools these mortals be! What fools! Awk!

289. elena - December 7, 2008

Dragon, there are no coincidences any more! When Influence C designed the German language they were thinking with exactitude that Daily Cardiac could only believe in the afterlife!

Daily Cardiac,
I’ll answer you when you sincerely answer this one:

260. elena – December 6, 2008
211. elena – December 5, 2008
Frank and Daily Cardiac, what is dignity for you? Pride? Love? decency? harmony? Not as social dogmas but within your being, within your understanding?

Please answer the question.

290. elena - December 7, 2008

elena: “there are no coincidences any more! When Influence C designed the German language they were thinking with exactitude that Daily Cardiac could only believe in the afterlife!”

Hello, Daily Cardiac, I wish to apologize for this sentence, I much prefer to call you a pimp than to make fun of you. In the former I am stating what I think Fellowship members are doing while in the latter I minimize you as a human being. Please forgive me for allowing the tone to influence me. I realize that for the majority here this page is the ideal blog page and you’re having great fun but for me it’s by far the poorest page of the blog. I congratulate you nevertheless for having made it here. It’s all yours, I’ll retreat with pleasure.

I also wish all here and inside the Fellowship a merry, merry Christmas. It’s early still but the little houses next to mine all have lights and the children are exited and playing. The long preparation of cakes and food has begun.

No matter how much I’ve judged and condemmed life in the Fellowship and the blog, I have nothing against anyone in particular. We are all victims of the poorest invention and even if I hold many of you in the Fellowship responsible, I can only wish you better things, better luck. Life is beautiful, I hope it embraces you with everything you deserve: beauty, dignity, integrity, joy, love.

291. Yesri Baba - December 7, 2008

Duh! I am so stupid. Why didn’t you guys tell me this before. All this crap from DC is just propaganda cover for the fof’s tax exempt status. Look at his words: belief, salvation, afterlife etc..These guys are just hired guns. Nobody is that galactically retarded.

292. Yesri Baba - December 7, 2008

Bobby knows about giving and receiving salvation. He just shoves that pecker to the back of the throat and tongue activating the gag reflex and salvation glands. Then he sticks into the german afterlife.

293. Daily Cardiac - December 7, 2008

Elena – 272:

“You really ARE going back in history, not even Latins eat that bullshit any more!”

Latins have not been cutting edge since the days of Quetzalcuatl.

294. Yesri Baba - December 7, 2008

Believing in airy-fairy beings, salvation and an afterlife. Oh, that’s soooo cutting edge.

295. Daily Cardiac - December 7, 2008

WhaleRider – 282:

“Salvation comes through Jihad.”

The Spiritual Warrior has no outside enemies.

296. Madam X - December 7, 2008

Dear Frank and Daily Cardiac

Re: psychopaths.

Not responding to my invitation?

This is from Pamela Kulbarsh, RN, BSW has been a crisis clinician with San Diego’s Psychiatric Emergency Response Team (PERT) for five years, and has ridden with Carlsbad, Oceanside and Escondido Departments, as well as with deputies from the San Diego Sheriff‘s Vista and Encinitas stations. She is also a PERT Team Leader. Pam has been a guest speaker related to psychiatric emergencies and has published articles in nursing magazines. She has taught Regional Officer Training classes in San Diego. Pam has been a psychiatric nurse for 22 years.

She speaks about psycho paths in the following:

Common psychopathological traits include the following:
glib and superficial charm;
grandiose sense of self-worth;
need for stimulation;
pathological lying;
cunning and manipulativeness;
lack of remorse or guilt; shallow affect;
callousness and lack of empathy;
parasitic lifestyle; poor behavioral controls;
promiscuous sexual behavior;
early behavior problems;
lack of realistic, long-term goals;
impulsivity; irresponsibility;
failure to accept responsibility for own actions;
many short-term marital relationships;
juvenile delinquency;
revocation of conditional release;
and criminal versatility.

Psychopaths are the worse kinds of narcissists. They not only disregard society and social cues, they carry this disdain for rules to the extreme, calculating and scheming ruthlessly. They are notoriously callous career criminals. They enjoy what they do. The bottom line is that psychopaths are deliberately, energetically, joyfully evil.

Did you recognize some characteristics?

Sleep well…hope your conscience will awake.

297. brucelevy - December 7, 2008

296. Madam X

Yes, thank you. What amazes me is that people here are actually engaging these douche bags as if…

298. Panorea - December 7, 2008

Madam X

Thank you for your posts.

What surprised me was that after 2006 a huge part of what Robert used to call the “inner circle” departed. Here we are talking about people who got to come close to him (and there are so few in the FOF), who worked for the “school” and devoted large part of their lives into supporting him and the building of Apollo (insert here any name you prefer…), supported the centers, etc, etc, etc. Most of them do not write in this forum. But we all know we were involved in a highly manipulative situation.

The only thing his Highness has said is that he simply loses interest in people when they leave HIS “school.”

What I have also seen is that many “students” who would not have a chance to play the “prominent” roles in the “school” in the past are taking over now. It is the new generation. There is a lack of initiative, a lack of personal interest, and a desire to obey and serve. There was obviously space created and it is filled. As with the madness which is called “sequence”; you just put all the “lower self” interference on the side and continue to the next “sequence”, do not allow any time to think or feel; all unnecessary dear, all of the lower s(h)elf, do not believe your Eyes, do not read other books, do not look at other “teachers”, do not talk to ex-members, do not, do not, just do the “sequence” and then the breaths…

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$A sheikh asked Kharaghani, “How can I lead people to Allah?”
He replied, “Just be sure you are actually leading them to Allah, and not to your self.”
The sheikh asked, “How can I be sure whether I am leading them to Allah or to myself?”
Kharaghani responded, “If you are jealous when someone else leads them to Allah, you were leading them to your own self!”
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Talking about jealousy and Robert Burton…So many stories to recall…But do not express negativity dear……

I am trying to come into terms with things I gained in the FOF. There are some. But I loved poetry and literature and classical music before I joined the club. My parents had beautiful paintings and furniture and we would travel and we had a pretty good education. I am looking into what I was missing when I was attracted to the fourth way ideas when I was 18 and joined the “school” when I was 21. I think I was missing Love and Care and I wanted to be “changed” into a better, enlightened being. And when I joined in the late 80s there was interest in the FOF and there was care and attention. But I had not met the “teacher” then. So, I went off a journey and lived my life, trying to fit in and understand the “teaching.” I only spent a year at Renaissance. The contact with people was the main interest again.

I really did not have any negative experience with Robert. What makes me feel disgusted though is the fact that I – as many at the moment – judged him only from our personal contact. Is it acceptable to keep on supporting a criminal behavior only because it is not directed to you and your family? Robert has abused people. People you and I had dinners and lunches together. As time passes I can see how Robert abused all of us as he kept on playing with our weakness and supported them.

A current student who has spent a lot of time with Robert told me that nobody knows him. The believers think that the “prominent” people know him but nobody really does. There is nothing there to know. Empty shell; ready to accept ones illusions and fears and play with them. We all played our role in holding this illusion together.

299. Panorea - December 7, 2008

Please excuse my ignorance on this…
Could you please explain to me what do we achieve by signing the petition, how many signatures we actually need, etc…I am playing with the idea of signing and just wanted to gather some info.

Thank you.

300. Panorea - December 7, 2008

Good Lord!!! Supporting Robert’s actions and believing in AfterLife? Which version exactly are we talking about? Silly question again…He has created his own “RobertEarlBurtonian Afterlife” and he has also re-defined the notion of KARMA…

Quoting here…
…The AFTERLIFE (also: life after death and hereafter) is the proposed continued existence of the soul, spirit or mind of a being after physical death. The major views on the afterlife derive from religion, esotericism and metaphysics. In many popular views, this continued existence often takes place in a spiritual or immaterial realm. Deceased persons are usually believed to go to a specific realm or plane of existence after death, usually determined by their actions during life. By contrast, the term reincarnation refers to an afterlife that is a continuation of physical life in this world….

…The philosophical explanation of KARMA can differ slightly between traditions, but the general concept is basically the same. Through the law of karma, the effects of all deeds actively create past, present, and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one’s own life, and the pain and joy it brings to him/her and others. The results or ‘fruits’ of actions are called karma-phala. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one’s present life and all past and future lives as well…

301. Wouldnt You Like To Know - December 7, 2008

To you, Panorea, and to all:

Reposting from Page 28 #326
Wouldn’t you like to know
on January 16, 2008 at 11:44 pm

Life: Usual standard for social, and other types of, contracts is that people have the opportunity to make informed decisions about their actions.

Cult: Usual standard, beneath the general level of life, for social, and other types of, contracts is that people have little opportunity to make informed decisions about their actions. There are hidden agendas, esoterica, bait and switch scams, smoke and mirrors, ulterior motives, deception, coercion, undue influence, out-and-out deceit, dishonesty, manipulation, and confidence games; all the while claiming to be above the level of ‘life.’ Just to name a few tricks.

Don’t pay any attention to the man behind the curtain.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Strange, is it not? that of the myriads who
Before us pass’d the door of Darkness through,
Not one returns to tell us of the Road,
Which to discover we must travel too.

The Rubaiyat
Omar Khayyam
Edward FitzGerald English adaptation

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

The Tragedy of Macbeth
Act 5, Scene 5
William Shakespeare

302. lauralupa - December 7, 2008

I have an intuition about which other-than-human female entity inhabits the Teacher’s body… but I am open to other suggestions

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3FSAP4A0E&feature=related

303. aline - December 7, 2008

#269. Madam X
“They may end up living a “predatory” lifestyle, feeling little or no regret, and having little or no remorse – except when they are caught or about to be locked up.”

I had a conversation with one of my best friends, just before I left
While we were arguying about being in or out of the fof, he tolds me : “we have to behave as predators”, as if it was a positive and possible way to developpe ourself in the fof.
He was sad that I was leaving and told me that anyway we will continue to see each other.
Then, he deseappeared and I never got news from him after 16 years of friendship and several attempts to join him.
The lack of empathy is one of the features one has to deal with many in the fof: the impossibility to communicate feelings or questions even to goods friends is the daily bread there.
It is speaking to the walls, as you can see here on this blog with DC.
Quite scary, no?

304. Panorea - December 7, 2008

When the IRS (could be another organization, I am not familiar with the American government) visited the property either last year or two years ago, there were students preparing to show to the authorities that they were really part of a Church. There were meetings to memorize what to say about their religious order and of course there were only a few selected ones who could play this game.

Why hide if you know you are doing the right thing? Conscience? Being aware of oneself? Being present? To what? To your own self lying and manipulating? And we call this Conscious School and Conscious Life?

305. dragon - December 7, 2008

Elena,

Robert E. Burton assimilates Raj Karega Khalsa:

Ergo, DC (our spiritual blog-warrior?) never leaves the battlefield (Blog etc.):

DC, why don’t you answer the questions of Elena?

You fight in defence of your faith! Or is it in defence of your source of income?

Please consider you are FREE, – TAX-EXEMPT! (a church and spiritual warriors? Oh, DC where are you going? JIHAD in CALIFORNIA?)

Be sure the authorities of the USA and the EU are taking this very seriously.

Thank you for your informations:

The Fellowship of Friends, aka “esoteric christianity” is changing its image:

Robert E. Burton and the Fellowship of Friends on their new way:

Spiritual-Christian-WARRIORS, JIHAD in CALIFORNIA?

306. Draco - December 7, 2008

DC, 267,
“And what prey tell absolves you from ad hominem? Your mere stating that you are not engaging in it?”

And what makes it Ad Hominem apart from you asserting that it is? All I know of you is what you write in your posts and that you are a Fellowship member. Your FOF membership gives a context to the text of your messages. (And incidentally I agree with the Sheikh that trying to reveal the identity of contributors is unaccaptable.) I deconstruct your arguments because your arguments depend on the structure that you give them. This is specific to your messages. I don’t bother deconstructing Frank’s messages because they don’t rely on misleading pseudologic for their effect.

“If anyone is being spurious it’s you. You refuse to acknowledge that your views are at best just as subjective as mine.”

This is just a red herring. You use the notion of subjectivity as a bludgeon to flatten other people’s point of view. Your posts indicate that you do not see us all as equally subjective (an approach that is difficult for anyone to maintain) , but that your FOF membership gives you an outlook that is absolutely superior to that of ex-members–just like Robert tells you.

307. Jomo Piñata - December 7, 2008

The Spiritual Warrior has no outside enemies.

Awk! Spiritual Warrior. No outside enemies! Pass the poi. Awk!

308. fofblogmoderator - December 7, 2008

301, 302 & 305 are newly moderated

309. nigel harris price - December 7, 2008

282 whalerider

I feel it the sign of a mature adult human to live within ‘The Realm of Unknowing’, devoid of any form of religion but knowing that one will eventually have to give up the form of this life. Also, I see no point in having to live this life if there were not others to live further along- after all, there are other moments with other opportunities beyond this one, are there not?…..Nigel.

310. fofblogmoderator - December 7, 2008

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