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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 56 November 21, 2008

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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

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Comments

1. Daily Cardiac - November 21, 2008

Jomo Piñata

HIGH EXIT COSTS

In my one moment of using a literal reference i.e. “high exit costs” , meaning money, several individuals wrote back chastising me for not considering “losing one’s friends” or feeling like “food for the moon” as part of the high exist costs.

Of course my use of the literal in this rare instance was to point out that the FoF has a “high entrance cost” for re-joiners, unlike the profile of cults in general, which are easy to join and difficult to leave. (As someone once said on the blog, “just stop the TP checks and you’ll be out in a jiffy.”)

I’ve been “pulling teeth” getting ex members to consider that many things that happen in the FoF have an entirely different meaning from the obvious. But this shows that ex members really are able to think in a non-linear sense – when it serves their present situation.

I think you were among those who wrote back to me making a non literal point.

Now I see your list to WT and you’ve reverted to the most literal interpretations possible with things like the Gurjieff Ouspensky Centres vs. FoF comparison.

If you see your examples to be unacceptable actions on the part of FoF regarding their advertising methods you would have to close down all of “Madison Ave.”

2. Yesri Baba - November 21, 2008

296 55 Jomo

9. Prospective students attending prospective student meetings were told the school was led by a man #6 but were not permitted to be told Robert Burton’s name until they had made their first teaching payment. So there was active concealment.

—————–

Boy, that brought back the flavor of a creepy memory. I remember being told that and it falling on the fantasy that man#6 meant something to me. I remember being very curious who this mysterious person was- if maybe I had read about him in some ‘esoteric’ book. All part of the ‘Hook’.
I was also told that unca jellylips and Alex Horn were the only two men #6 alive on the planet at the time.

Now, as far as lies go, that is a whopper for at least two reasons.

3. Yesri Baba - November 21, 2008

BUILD A SOUL!

DROP YOUR BODY!

LIVE IN THE CELESTIAL CITY OF PARADISE!!!

ONLY $299.99 A MONTH FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!!!!

*does not include two $750.00 ‘donations’ per year and being harangued for auctions, raffles, birthday presents, second hand bobbles (heh,heh), or entrance to the blitherings of a madman.
*batteries not included, blow jobs free-sorry ladies.

4. dragon - November 21, 2008

292. Walter J. Tanner – November 20, 2008

“That was the whole thing with the Fellowship. In a way, REB was just the crazy attractor, and he attracted people from all ages, backgrounds and persuasions, to get together and do this “work.”

Sure REB doesn’t have a GENIUNE LINEAGE to Gurdjieff or Ouspensky, but there were (are) people in the Fellowship WHO DID, and those WERE MY TEACHERS:

Mark S., Brunella, that old Egyptian guy, Parks, more I can’t remember.”

Walter Tanner you don’t know me and I don’t know you.
First of all: I respect you and you are completely free to tell everything what’s up in your mind or to say nothing in reply.

I would like to ask you: “Did you ever earlier or nowadays observe an internally question regarding those teachers with a genuine lineage to Gurdjieff etc. working in the Fellowship of Friends? The question why are those high esteemed teachers of mine in the Fellowship of friends?

If you and those teachers have had the knowledge concerning the procedures of Robert Earl Burton (the attempt to evoke consciousness and the creation of a soul via sex by mutual agreement) would you and those teachers have done this exercise as well?

Were you in good faith that the well-directed release of sexual energy (via a teacher) supported the students in their progress on their way.

Mark S., Brunella, that old Egyptian guy are those teachers still in the FOF and are you able to discuss with them?

5. Ellen - November 21, 2008

Page 55, #251, Julien
Thanks for your post. Nice to hear from you.

Though the sex coercion issue in RB is a factor, I happen to see it just a symptom of an even deeper malaise: his interest in persuing consciousness with acknowledging connection. Ultimately, it is not possible. Or alternatively, you can only get so far. Sure, you can experience “higher states”, but not stabilize there. So, the FoF “spiritual path” becomes a certain form of spiritual masturbation.

In my twenties, I took my spiritual thirst, and my perception of the world (hell in a handbasket) and mixed up a cocktail of cultic escapism. (Of course, I did not call it that at the time.) But, Ellen, why not take the perceptions and emotions I might experience in reading the newspaper and rather than feel judgemental of the sleeping life people out there, feel responsible? Why not?

I still deeply and firmly believe that all human suffering is unnecessary, so it is an aspect of human sleep, of humanity’s general unwillingness to experience it’s connection to other peoples, animals, even plants in very specific and concrete circumstances. That sense of connectedness is the essence of all true spirituality. How could I have missed that???

Because our leader emphasized the opposite. And I listened. But at a certain point on the “spiritual path”, there comes an opening, an explosion of the heart. It’s just the way it is. Because love is an essential quality of being-awareness. And it is not to be denied: a love without borders or mind based limitations. So, I turn my ear elsewhere now and take responsibility for the past in the present.

I think it is the best any of us can do.

6. jack - November 21, 2008

Amen, to that Ellen.
“Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.” Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
jx

7. ton - November 21, 2008

DC — if not refreshing and enlightening, at least your posts are ‘inspiring’ in a sort of inverse way. In the case of that last turd you dropped, you really need to re-examine and re-think your use of the word ‘literal’– but then again it may not help you to re-think since you don’t understand, you don’t even have an ‘inkling’ of the ‘literal costs’ in leaving the cult.

Here’s a clue — IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY! LITERALLY NOTHING!

Once again your thinking demonstrates that your ‘spirituality’ is simply another brand of materialism. ‘Madison Avenue??!!” You’ve got to be kidding? This is preposterous!!

But at least you are consistent — once again you attempt to deflect and obfuscate the point by cloaking it in more meaningless rationalizations…. just so that we’re clear, I repeat:

THE COST OF LEAVING THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DOLLARS AND CENTS… LITERALLY NOTHING.

So if you know that why bring it up….? You really don’t understand and to obfuscate again with this absolute bullshit: “…things that happen in the FoF have an entirely different meaning from the obvious…” what was it Gurdjieff said about the best place to hide something? It’s as close as the end of your own nose but you really don’t see… it is your own thinking and rationalizing about the obvious and you’ve abdicated your own good judgement and common sense with this nonsense.

Look, my hope is to help by pointing what I know about the processes the members of this cult are exposed to and what I recognize as some of the mechanisms for behavior change that have affected the capacity for clarity of heart-purpose-intention and realizing the difference between rationalization and rational thinking… there is a difference you know. I hope one day you’ll recognize the difference and you’ll be able to think for yourself.

I hope to point out that reclaiming of your humanity, reestablishing your individuality and your true identity as a human being is a difficult struggle but is a noble purpose and really ‘the only game in town.’ all of us are struggling to become more ‘human’ and more humane in the true sense of the word… whether in the FOF cult or not, the ongoing struggle to grow into human beings, to realize (make real) our humanity (in the best sense of the term), this is what life is about.

Belive me when I say I know something about the plight of an ex-cultist in adjusting to life after the FOF, it can be daunting and even life-threatening. I can think of more than one former FOF member who in fact perished in the process… and the forfeiting of one’s life may be the highest ‘exit cost’ of all. The FOF programming would have you believe that the ‘exit cost’ is forfeiture of your very soul… but in actual fact nothing could be further from the truth, quite the opposite, with time one regains what’s left of one’s soul after exiting the cult and from the tattered shreds of one’s soul, new life grows again.

Belief in this particular bit of dogmatic nonsense about losing one’s soul upon leaving the ‘school’ and the very effective brainwashing that accompanies this belief, is in fact one way the organization continues to feed upon and stunt the growth of the souls of the unfortunate adherents of the FOF. But there is always Hope….

“But this still means I can rationalize anything I want doesn’t it?” Indeed, if you are not honest with yourself or others, you can make attempts to convince people of all sorts of things. Most people will recognize a rationalization quickly, especially if they understand your motives and/or basic human behavior. This is an example of immoral (or at least irresponsible) behavior that we must be on the lookout for. However, this sort of deed is not absent in religious history to any degree either. The Bible has been used to rationalize slavery, torture, murder, rape, abuse, war, injustice, and a whole host of miserable endeavors.

Many smaller sorts of “rationalizations” usually get worked out in the larger picture of general consensus. It is when we abandon freedom of thought and speech and objective questioning of authority in exchange for dogmatic authoritarianism and “bandwagon logic” that we risk being deceived on a larger scale. We learn through history (both personal and social) the difference between rationalization and the rational.”

dt strain

8. Ellen - November 21, 2008

#5
Typo! An important one, too.
“I happen to see it as symptom of an even deeper malaise: his interest in persuing consciousness without acknowledging connection.”

9. Draco - November 21, 2008

DC 56/1
The idea of a monetary exit payment is ludicrous. How could any cult levy a fee on a member who is intent on escaping? However, the high re-entry fees act as a disincentive to leaving because a member who wants to leave but feels some uncertainty will be discouraged from doing so because s/he is likely to have difficulty raising the money to rejoin in the future.

10. Draco - November 21, 2008

REGARDING REPLIES FROM DAILY CARDIAC

Mr Cardiac regrets that he is unable to reply to every message due to severe demands on his time (attending Fellowship events, earning money to donate to the Fellowship, doing sequences, etc.).

You will find below a template which will allow you to construct your own replies from Daily Cardiac. Please select the most appropriate response.

1. Counter any criticism of Robert Burton or the Fellowship by saying that the criticism actually proves that Robert is conscious and the Fellowship is a real school

2. Search through the entire history of mankind to find someone else who at some time has done something similar to Robert. Claim that because X has also done Y, then Y is not a bad thing to do. (See above for an example: Madison Avenue uses dishonest advertising techniques too, so it’s OK for the Fellowship to use dishonest advertising.)

3. a) State that we each have our own experience: you have your experience and I have mine; therefore your experience is just that–merely your own experience. b) Insert a few lines of filler material. c) Conclude with a poetic piece which leaves you in no doubt that DC’s experience is actually superior to yours.

4. Just ignore the message.

The best Daily Cardiac responses will win a FREE DINNER with Robert Burton ($800 surcharge + full re-entry fees apply).

11. Jomo Piñata - November 21, 2008

Lacuna Piñata/1

Now I see your list to WT and you’ve reverted to the most literal interpretations possible with things like the Gurjieff Ouspensky Centres vs. FoF comparison.

If you see your examples to be unacceptable actions on the part of FoF regarding their advertising methods you would have to close down all of “Madison Ave.”

Lacuna dude you are one fuzzy thinker. Fuzzy fuzzy fuzzy! Haven’t you ever been deceived into buying something? I’d like to hear your history of buyer’s remorse. Maybe, just maybe there was a misrepresentation somewhere. Did you smoke cigarettes at any time? Did you know that MORE DOCTORS SMOKE CAMELS than any other cigarette! Take THAT Madison Avenue!

What is interesting about your response is that it shows what a hard time you have focusing your mind. Walter posed a great question having to do with lying and the role of lying in respect of the Fellowship’s recruitment practices. In response, I wrote Walter a specific list of things that were related to the subject we were discussing: the role of fakery, prevarication, fibbing, misrepresentation, and so forth, in the recruitment of human beings into the Fellowship of Friends. Eight out of the nine things I wrote related to the bookmark, and all nine related to the recruitment process. You couldn’t focus on any one of them or any subgroup of them. You just characterized them globally as “the most literal interpretations possible.”

THAT’s what I mean by fuzzy thinking. I wasn’t “interpreting” anything. I was analyzing an artifact of propaganda. Every artifact of propaganda has layers of meaning. The literal meaning of something is one of the layers of meaning. It is not exempt from analysis. It INVITES analysis.

See, analysis is one of the things the human mind is capable of doing. Analysis, the mental process, involves detailed examination of the thing being analyzed in light of what’s known and what’s unknown. Analysis is frequently useful for getting a better understanding of processes.

Analysis is substantially absent in the Fellowship. The admonition “mind activity is not consciousness” is a thought-terminating cliche intended to interrupt analysis and other useful mind activity. Fruitful analysis is impossible in the Fellowship by virtue of the operation of social taboos. Analysis requires that every useful question be asked. A free mind requires nothing less. Many questions simply cannot be asked in the Fellowship. You know what these questions are. Try asking them and see how long it takes for you to get kicked out.

I do not say you lack an analytical mind, Lacuna Piñata. Maybe you have one in there somewhere. As a child you could analyze things and draw your own conclusions. But from my current perspective your mind is FUZZY FUZZY FUZZY. No one can really have a conversation with you because you keep retreating into fuzzy global “interpretations” and don’t actually address the subject being discussed.

12. Kid Shelleen - November 21, 2008

“If you see your examples to be unacceptable actions on the part of FoF regarding their advertising methods you would have to close down all of “Madison Ave.”” — DC

I see what you’re getting at, but you might want to re-tool that sentence so that it actually says something. Also, why the quotation marks around Madison Ave? Are you quoting someone?

13. Jomo Piñata - November 21, 2008

PS Lacuna have you considered that your continued membership in the Fellowship after all these years might be Exhibit A for the proposition that cults are difficult to leave?

14. elena - November 21, 2008

Ton,

The problem with the Fellowship is that they are not trying to be more human, they were already successful in “dropping” the human and are covinced that they are now “perfectly divine” and free of all accountability.

Daily Cardiac. Look for help outside of the Fellowship if there’s still anyone you can trust outside.

15. Jomo Piñata - November 21, 2008

More Madison Avenue shenanigans (wink, wink) for those who liked the previous link:

16. Daily Cardiac - November 21, 2008

Walter Tanner – 55-292:

“And you can only lie about facts. When REB says he’s a goddess-in-a-man’s body, or that letting him fellate you will be good for your soul, how exactly does one go about proving whether that is a “lie” or not? I happen to think its what he really believes.”

This is a central point to the whole discussion. To prove statements like these to be lies one would first have to prove RB was not conscious (assuming conscious beings have more integrity than the average Joe.)

And to prove that fact one would first need to prove something called Consciousness, or Enlightenment, actually exists.

It was considerations like this that led to the Doctrine of Separation of Church and State.

17. Draco - November 21, 2008

Walter Tanner – 55-292:

“And you can only lie about facts. When REB says he’s a goddess-in-a-man’s body, or that letting him fellate you will be good for your soul, how exactly does one go about proving whether that is a “lie” or not? I happen to think its what he really believes.”

This is a central point to the whole discussion. To prove statements like these to be lies one would first have to prove RB was not a goddess (assuming goddesses have more integrity than the average Jane.)

And to prove that fact one would first need to prove something called goddesshood, or female divinity actually exists.

It was considerations like this that led to the Doctrine of Separation of Common Sense and Absurdity.

After all, most heterosexual men would allow another man to fellate them if they were certain that the man was in fact a goddess in a man’s body.

18. ton - November 21, 2008

Elena, that really is the problem isn’t it… the scam is to get the FOF adherents believing that they are above humanity — at least vicariously, through association with Robot Burton, the self proclaimed ‘goddess’ — the absurdity is astonishing… and the absurd/bizarre nature of the enterprise is another element of the cognitive dissonance that factors into brainwashing and mind-control. Divorcing oneself form humanity as is the custom and belief in FOF dogma, really is a dehumanizing process designed to eviscerate the soul, in effect disempowering the believers by separating them from their own humanity.

Re: the current shill posting under the moniker DC – just to get a little clearer picture of what we’re dealing with here, we see diversion in every post… “seperation of church and state” ???!!! BULLSHIT on top of BULLSHIT… completely ‘off the wall’ BULLSHIT… in fact the shill is just slinging shit on the wall to see what sticks. The shill tries to redirect the conversation by stating what “is a central point to the whole discussion…” ABSOLUTE FUCKING BULLSHIT again and again ad nauseum….

“Diversion – A moving target is hard to hit. When we try to pin a manipulator down or try to keep a discussion focused on a single issue or behavior, he’s expert at knowing how to change the subject, dodge the issue or in some way throw us a curve. Manipulators use distraction and diversion techniques to shift the focus, move us off-track, and keep themselves free to promote their self-serving agendas.

“minimization – This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with rationalization. When using this maneuver, the manipulator is attempting to assert that his abusive behavior isn’t really as harmful or irresponsible as someone else may be claiming. It’s the aggressor’s attempt to make a molehill out of a mountain.

Playing the Servant Role – Covert-aggressives use this tactic to cloak their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more ‘noble cause.’ It’s a common tactic but difficult to recognize. By pretending to be working hard on someone else’s behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others.”

hey DC, google “rationalization” and “manipulation” then look in the mirror and pop that giant zit you think of as your head.

19. ton - November 21, 2008

Ellen I wondered about that but based on your other postings I figured it was a typo….

Draco, ‘ludicrous’ is a good if genteel descriptor of the bullshit posted under the moniker “DC.” speaking of ‘re-entry’ (no double entendre intended)– one major ‘disincentive’ to leaving the FOF is the ‘cost’ of ‘re-entering’ the ‘mainstream’ (aka ‘life,’ a term used pejoratively by the FOF… now there’s a bit of irony). After a stint of several or many years in the FOF, one comes away with a lot of negative implants (‘programming’) about life outside of the psycho-emotional confines of the FOF… uncertainty over how to manage in the outside world so long held in contempt is a major factor in considering re-entry into life. It involves overcoming a lot of negative programming, this is but one hurdle, not to mention getting back up to speed with ‘life’ — recovery can be a long process, it takes a great deal of courage and perseverance… cowards like DC wouldn’t be up to the challenge and so they choose to hide under the comforting skirts of a self-proclaimed goddess in sheep’s clothing… absolutely absurd.

20. Yawning Lion - November 21, 2008

DC, you’re funny, you give me a great big belly laugh with every other post. The best one so far is the one where you explain what an imposition on your time and energy writing on this blog is. I make a prediction: You will leave the Fellowship DC, whoever you are, that’s why you are here, to find your way out.

YL

21. Opus 111 - November 21, 2008

DC

I am not conversant with legal or ethical issues, but I know that just because I cannot prove to the “average joe” that higher consciousness exists, does not mean that it is not obvious to the average Joe that enticing young men to homosexual acts they would otherwise not engage in under the promise of higher conscious fate, is objectionable and morally wrong.

This has nothing to do with the separation of church and state and you know it.

22. Panorea - November 21, 2008

Leaving the school has been a nightmare for many of us. Just look through all the daily cards (why would you???), Robert’s book, the Thoughts, the Loony issues…Look how current students write and think about us damned and lost souls. Who wants to be part of a tin filled with cat food for the moon? In my opinion here lies the most dangerous sign of a cult. In my personal journey through the Fof I did not encounter the filth others had to live with; at least not in the external world. I had a pretty normal and active live.

But internally I was losing my voice and strength day after day.

This led me to meeting my GP and been directed to a psychologist. I have been working with professionals (or were they working with me?) for 3 years and I never told them about the FOF. I initially went there for my “emotional centre”. My higher centres were being taken care of…I only told them last week. And the puzzle was completed. I went there because every time I would be next to Robert during a meeting or an event I would experience panic attacks, fears and anxiety. I thought it had to do with a few issues from my childhood and I was telling myself all the time that this was just my “instinctive centre” and then as the “teaching” was progressing it became my “lower self” and then it slowly became my sweet self, it became me seeing how much I was denying myself, my talents, my faults and my eyes opened and there was no love in the FOF. The place I dreamed as the most wonderful environment to evolve with my friends, my family, fell into pieces, into ugly chunks.

It goes without saying that the stories about depression, fears, anxieties, addictions and all kinds of reactions to an unhealthy “spiritual diet” is something many of us have experienced; especially many of us who had the “privilege” to be close to the “teacher”, be “inner circle”, be “pillars” and hard workers. But many of us put and still put the blame on our “lower self.”

How can one evolve if one cannot clean their own mess? Many people collapse in the FOF. They forget to love themselves and keep on staring upwards to the stars, to something better, higher, real. But they neglect the most basic. I have seen many ghosts in meetings and gatherings. What is real for you? If Robert and whatever he does is real for you, then you are in the right place. If you doubt, take action.

Rumour has it that current members announce that it is even better now with so many of us gone. Only the real chosen ones are staying. They might be more than right. Not for me, thanks.

23. whalerider - November 21, 2008

Daily Challenge:
“I’ve been “pulling teeth” getting ex members to consider that many things that happen in the FoF have an entirely different meaning from the obvious.”

Right…the emperor is wearing clothes so obviously transparent that even though we can see right through them, we still must play along and pretend that there something substantial there in all the drivel.

Sorry…no thanks, been there, not going back.

I value my spiritual freedom, and there’s no way I am going to pay someone to take it away from me ever again.

Dealing with us is like “pulling teeth” you say?

I like your metaphor. You are right, it is difficult to extract a tooth, especially if its a good tooth. So it depends on the tooth; you only get a limited number to work with. If the tooth in question is diseased and decayed, well then, it’s just going to have to come out, one way or the other and that’s a difficult task. Now pulling at a living tooth just because your cult leader set you to the task…well, I guess by yanking at and eventually pulling out a living tooth you might demonstrate your dedication to your guru, but you’d be out of a tooth that’s not going to grow back. I, for one, am not willing to pay those kind of membership dues. That tooth, DC, is your conscience.

I have one for you, DC:

Dealing with long time FOF cult followers is like coaxing a bird out of its cage where it has lived most of its life…

…and leaving the FOF cult for some followers will feel like that first painful evolutionary jump from fish to amphibian…you’re going to flop around a bit at first until your legs get stronger.

DC, you have been given a set of lungs and a set of wings, you have a brain and a will to thrive, it’s up to you to use them.

24. unoanimo - November 21, 2008

Hello ton (and DC) ~

For me, the statement about the FOF not having ‘High Exit Costs’ was meant as it was, i.e., in reference to the cost to one’s humanity, heart, soul, essence, etc. (Though only in reference to a current FOF members’ teachings and beliefs on this ‘cost’; after all, such confusion and trauma-dancing is what kept many of us in for so long (and) rightly so…)

To refer it later to a literal meaning of “money” is simply insincere… Everyone knows that there is no monetary “exit cost” for leaving the FOF (If you don’t count the $60,000+ that you invested in your ‘celestial retirement fund’…)

Mad-Is-On Avenue indeed!

So, to me, the pointing to literalism was just a way to get around consceince and the revelation that surfaced sub-consciously concerning the closer position the FOF has to one’s heart of hearts…

Results show the essence of the practice; while many in the FOF continue to argue that the bullet is absolutely harmless while traveling from point A to point B…

Excuses, excuses… When we gain more and more emotional courage and trust in ourselves, we’ll be less and less attracted to pretty things and gossip about angels keeping their promises, as if such promises could ever be ‘angelic’ (?)

Like saying to God, “I was just joking” after farting in line while waiting for the pearly gates to open… See, God has an incredible way of using the craft of ventriloquism to reveal our deeper addictions to love, empathy, forgiveness, softness and warmth.

25. Walter J. Tanner - November 21, 2008

This is the best, Jomo:

“At a certain point every adult must come to a point where he says, crazy wisdom, fuck it. This shit’s just mental illness.”

I absolutely agree, but I also find value in the states and perceptions available through what society calls “mental illness.” And by living with a bunch of people marked by the characteristics of mental illness, and then curing myself of that illness, opened up to me the true possibilities inherent in our mind or may I say our Being. So I have this soft-spot in my heart for crazy Bob, popping pills and forming Galleria daisy-chains with his disciples.

All that sleazy stuff — bookmarking, using a false front name, keeping the teacher’s identity secret, then discovering his perversions — was for me evidence that this really was Gurdjieffian-inspired, real dangerous stuff from the original pimp guru, G.I. G. Pure bullshit of course (well no, it WAS real dangerous for some people according to what they say), and really compelling to a certain young male seeker demographic.

As an apostate, do you deny “altered states of consciousness” altogether? I’ve personally done away with this idea of spiritual evolution, but do think there are vistas of experience largely left unvisited by most of humanity?

walter.tanner@gmail.com

26. Walter J. Tanner - November 21, 2008

Dragon,

I am not communication with any of the people I mentioned. Some have a presence in the Greater Fellowship, so I know their “status,” others don’t and I have no idea.

My point was that these people were the true “inner circle” who had conscience and told the truth. Whatever they would have said, I still would have gone travelling with Robert, because I was an idiot 24 year-old, and needed to learn from my folly. Now on some level they too were caught-up in imagination about Robert, but they never lied to me, and earnestly cared about my work.

As to the sex stuff, I do believe (I have verified) that healthy sexuality can help one spiritually, etc., as well as bring people closer together spiritually. Some of Robert’s partners may find this to be true. Robert’s attempt to get in my pants just showed me that for all his talk and disciples he is actually a deeply insecure, sexually inhibited (although reportedly that has changed), pitiably lonely person. This is why his teaching depended so much on “suffering,” because this was the reality of his soul that Robert, with his man-number-sixness, was trying to eclipse.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

27. Jomo Piñata - November 21, 2008

Hey, Walter,
Sure there are “altered states of consciousness.” I’ve visited a bunch myself and quite enjoyed exploring some of them. Others I haven’t yet visited, but I love to travel. I have no preconception that states are to be stuffed into neat little numbered boxes, organized, and invaded by tentacles of ideology. As to what most of humanity experiences, I have no way of knowing. My experience is that I am forever learning things from people who are different than I am in some way. I rely on the observation of Jonathan Ott who, if memory serves because I haven’t googled it, assures us that there are at least ten thousand ayahuasca analogues to be found among the world’s plants. If that doesn’t provide the brains of humanity some diversity of entheogenic experience I’m not sure what will.

As to spiritual evolution, let me say, if it exists, to each his own.

28. nigel harris price - November 21, 2008

All this talk about ‘Higher Consciousness’. It is not an add-on. That is why it cannot be achieved in the FOF. Basically, Personality is being puffed up by high-energy experiences and impressions. In the Law of Things, Essence should emerge after Personality has been worn away and discarded. Then Essence grows and attracts those Higher States. You Americans should know the old Shaker tune:-

“T’is the gift to be simple, t’is the gift to be FREE;
T’is the gift to come down WHERE WE OUGHT TO BE.
And when we find ourselves in the place JUST RIGHT,
T’will be in the place of LOVE AND DELIGHT.”

…..Nigel.

29. fofblogmoderator - November 21, 2008

11, 15 & 22 are newly moderated

30. Panorea - November 21, 2008

This is an excerpt from the book “Relaxing into your being” by Bruce Kumar Frantzis, a Taoist lineage holder of what is called “the Water method of Lao Ze”. It was posted on the Greater Fellowship:

How familiar….

…These cult leaders use and project a multitude of external images to attract different crowds. They are equally likely to wear conventional suits and dresses, embroidered silks, ethnic costumes, or robes. They may look, speak, and act like well- groomed salesmen or professors, street hustlers, humble clerics, cryptic kung fu television characters, or Jesus Christ “wannabes” with long hair, beard, and robe, quoting biblical passages most convincingly.

To quote a common saying, misery loves company. The needs of students with psychological weak spots or damaged emotional lives to act out dysfunctionally, be conflicted and indecisive, or have endlessly convoluted relationships with parents and family are often transferred to the teacher and the cult community Students should note whether they personally, or the members of the spiritual group or cult they are investigating, allow, encourage, and play these neurotic games. Some individuals misinterpret the idea of a spiritual friend to mean, “Oh boy, now I can mistreat my new spiritual buddies like all my other friends, who mostly tell me to get lost because I act so horribly.’ This attitude easily opens the door for some enterprising cult leader to brainwash, manipulate, and abuse them in sadly absurd ways. Responsible spiritual teachers will not encourage these mentally unhealthy relationship games and will maintain distance from those that do, as these spiritually corrosive games breed neurosis and easily escalate into the danger zone. Good teachers encourage relaxed relationships and cooperation between spiritually inclined individuals, not conflict. Students of the Tao endeavor to treat spiritual friends well, with respect, and with honest, open agendas. Taoists consider these hallmarks of spiritually productive teacher-student relationships. Taoists believe it is good not to confuse human relationships predicated upon compassion, balance, and integrity with those based on the need to defend self-aggrandizing ego tendencies and hidden agendas about power and control that imprison the spirit. Chains, whether made of steel or gold, still bind…

31. unoanimo - November 21, 2008

“Rumor has it that current members announce that it is even better now with so many of us gone.”

Panorea,

Yes, as Ben Franklin used to say, “Three people can keep a secret when the other two are dead.”

32. Daily Cardiac - November 22, 2008

Jomo Piñata – 12:

“Lacuna have you considered that your continued membership in the Fellowship after all these years might be Exhibit A for the proposition that cults are difficult to leave?”

Actually I see something very different happening. What I actually see is that the more extreme ex members are in their criticism of the FoF the more preposterous becomes their position, and the more preposterous their position the more unsupportable their claims.

And the design is such that the further ex members push their viewpoint the more they call attention to the fallacy of it.

There are two considerations at play; both significant but each residing in its own dimension and both directly linked to your question.

The first thing to consider is the fact that I am proposing that the FoF
is what it claims to be, a school for awakening. Ex members are not saying it is a school of awakening that is deficient in some area, undeveloped, below average, poorly run/organized.

Ex members are saying something quite different. They are proposing that the FoF is the exact and utter opposite of what it claims to be. And as long as that is your claim; the more you say in that regard the more difficult it is to explain many indisputable facts that strongly suggest otherwise.

The FoF has been in existence for nearly 40 years. The overall makeup of the membership, past and present, indicates a higher than average degree of intelligence, education, alchemy, reliability.

The norm for people’ s stay, in many cases, is lenghty; 15, 20, even 30 years. All of these individuals presumably were looking for a school of awakening. To say all these intelligent, well intentioned people found and were duped by the exact opposite; an organization that by ex members own account induced “sleep”, and to top it off, one run by a sociopath devoid of a conscience is unsupportable to any reasoning mind. The implications are so fantastic it’s mind boggeling to even conjure up analogies, but here’s an attempt:

Suppose someone who is interested in maintaining a normal weight and values their health heard about a new restaurant specializing in healthy, low calorie food. So they decided to give it a try. What they found was food prepared, in the exact opposite way of what they knew to be healthy. Starchy food served in rich, creamy causes. Do you think they would continue to go back?

Do you think that restaurant would survive trying to lure a health conscious (no pun) clientel while serving the opposite of what healthy food contains? Even if they did a good job of masking what they served after two or three times eating there the customers’ stomachs and their own scales would tell them all they needed to know.

How about a mechanic shop that would, not only not fix your car, but actually break other well operating parts that were fine before you had it fixed there? How about a watch shop that returned your 5 minutes slow watch now running 10 minutes fast? Would you give them repeat business?

How about bad movies; do you not only not walk out, but stay to see them a second or third time just to make sure they’re bad, or because you’re good friends with the ticket taker? How about a dry cleaners that put stains in your clothes routinely?

Keep in mind these examples are all rather mundane in comparison to one’s spiritual development. If an individual would be careful in the above areas they would take even more care to get it right spiritually; if indeed that was what they were looking for initially.

So to stay so long in an organization that hurt or damaged the spirit would be highly unlikely. Staying for friends sake? I would not stay in such an organization long enough to even make friends!

As far as sociopaths go, their shelf life is pretty short. They all end up imploding rather quickly. 40 years is unprecedented, except in a police state where the sociopath is the police chief. Even Saddam fell short of Robert’s tenure.

So, this sleep inducing organization with a narcissist in charge after 40 years still charges 30% to 40 % of member’s income so they can attend meetings and dinners (for extra charges), all to get the opposite of what they intended to get when they joined. All to get not enlightenment, but sleep through brainwashing.

If you really try I’m sure you can come up with other reasons why this organization has flourished so long, and still flourishes today. You may find those reasons to clash with what you pronounce on the blog however.

So, to answer your question; no I don’t think my staying is “Exhibit A for the proposition that cults are difficult to leave.”

In fact, the second part of this post is intended to say that as I see it, cults, in the sense they are articulated here and by people like Rick Ross, do not even exist. It is a completely trumped up and arbitrary designation.

The present usage of the word in my estimation is a “catchall” term that becomes a haven for 21st century bigotry. Man has bigotry deeply embedded in his heart, so when one form is exposed for what it is man will look for other forms to transfer his hatred into.

Racial and gender bigotry have been sufficiently exposed for what they are and new havens must exist to house man’s insatiable hunger for judging others inferior. Cult-watching is one such avenue.

You, more than anyone on the blog, have offered proof of what I’m talking about.

Man is cultish by nature and from his inception as a race. Man started life as a member of a tribe and the race propagated into other tribes. Tribes fit every definition of a cult. Every now and then someone warns us that a particular group of conforming individuals represents a cult by posting lists of telltale signs. If those signs or conditions are applied per say almost any organization can be classified as a cult.

We could start with the U S military. Or the Boy Scouts of America, the Shriners, Daughters of the Revolution, Veterans of Foreign Wars, Enron, The Dallas Cowboys – talk about controlling – football teams will tell their members what to eat, when to eat it, who to associate with, how to dress, when they can talk to the press, when to go to bed, etc. Then after their playing career most players end up cripple – talk about victimized.

The entire cult designation is bogus without taking into account the fact that anyone or anything can fit the mold if taken at face value. There are certainly individuals who form, or become leaders, of organizations who in turn manipulate / charm / indoctrinate other individuals but they are found in every walk of life, not only religious or spiritual arenas.

Brainwashing equally does not exist as the term is applied.

The second state is a breeding ground for brainwashing, its just a matter of who one allows to wash one’s brain. And the only way to deprogram yourself from the second state, ironically, is to rise to the level of the third state, the domain of schools.

A Manson, a Jim Jones, a Billy Graham, an Ophra Winfrey, a Hitler, an Obama. It is the same indoctrination process. The same buying into.

Men are joiners, conformists. When a person is “deprogrammed” by cult busters nothing is reversed because was altered. It only means the person is immune to the doctrine of the particular organization they exited. But they are wholly susceptible to the next application of “brainwashing.”

This blog is as much a cult as what ex members claim the FoF is.Replete with its leaders, followers, alphas, company line, lingo,
unwritten laws.

The strongest proof that cults do not exist is the Nazi movement.(a post you introduced) This is an example of an entire world super power becoming a cult. 100,000 people. This should be proof for all that cultism is a deeply ingrained human trait, not an odd occurrence by a certain kind of easily indrotrinatable individual.

All those Germans did not lose their cultish nature when the Third Reich came down; they just imperceptibly transferred it into some other less audacious area.

Then again, many begin and end life as a cult of one.

33. Draco - November 22, 2008

That DC message (56/32) was mostly 1 & 2:

1. Counter any criticism of Robert Burton or the Fellowship by saying that the criticism actually proves that Robert is conscious and the Fellowship is a real school

2. Search through the entire history of mankind to find someone else who at some time has done something similar to Robert. Claim that because X has also done Y, then Y is not a bad thing to do.

You pulled out the stops there, DC. No such thing as a cult. Hitler, Obama, the Dallas Cowboys. All pressed into defense of The School. You haven’t been drinking have you?

34. Jomo Piñata - November 22, 2008

Ex members are saying something quite different. They are proposing that the FoF is the exact and utter opposite of what it claims to be.

NOW it’s clear you have heard the message. I’m not speaking for others, but that is certainly what I am saying. You DO have ears!

And as long as that is your claim; the more you say in that regard the more difficult it is to explain many indisputable facts that strongly suggest otherwise.

I’m not sure why you think it is more difficult to explain the facts you adduce. Let’s have a look, shall we?

The FoF has been in existence for nearly 40 years. The overall makeup of the membership, past and present, indicates a higher than average degree of intelligence, education, alchemy, reliability.

The Fellowship is Lake Wobegone. The women are prettier, the men are more handsome, and smarter, and all the children are above average. Oops, I forgot. There are no children.

What you seem to be saying, and please correct me if you think I got it wrong, is that the Fellowship is full of smart, educated people who can be relied on and care about keeping their environment looking good. Let’s assume that’s true. Cults recruit bright and idealistic people. Indeed, bright and idealistic people are the best attractors and, paradoxically, the most manipulable. The more someone has unliveable ideals, the more he can be manipulated.

The norm for people’ s stay, in many cases, is lenghty; 15, 20, even 30 years.

You are saying that these people stay a long time, and that somehow this proves the inherent worth of the organization. I respond that it does not. Length of stay may equally be a measure of misplaced loyalty, or even induced fear.

All of these individuals presumably were looking for a school of awakening. To say all these intelligent, well intentioned people found and were duped by the exact opposite; an organization that by ex members own account induced “sleep”, and to top it off, one run by a sociopath devoid of a conscience is unsupportable to any reasoning mind.

You are saying that the proposition seems preposterous to you, too preposterous to consider. I respect that this is how you genuinely feel about it. See, we are actually talking to each other. You think I am making a ridiculous proposition and you see your own position as, basically, common sense. That you believe the proposition you state above preposterous does not, however, make it “unsupportable to any reasoning mind.” As Bertrand Russell famously observed, common sense is what tells you the world is flat.

The implications are so fantastic it’s mind boggeling to even conjure up analogies, but here’s an attempt,

Again, I am pleased that you recognize that the proposition is “mind boggling.” It is mind boggling! That you recognize it as “mind boggling” indicates you have taken it in and grappled with it, at least for a moment. Good, good!

Suppose someone who is interested in maintaining a normal weight and values their health heard about a new restaurant specializing in healthy, low calorie food. So they decided to give it a try. What they found was food prepared, in the exact opposite way of what they knew to be healthy. Starchy food served in rich, creamy causes. Do you think they would continue to go back? Do you think that restaurant would survive trying to lure a health conscious (no pun) clientel while serving the opposite of what healthy food contains? Even if they did a good job of masking what they served after two or three times eating there the customers’ stomachs and their own scales would tell them all they needed to know.

OK, I hear your analogy. Let me tell you why I think it is inapt. A scale will readily tell restaurant patrons whether they are gaining weight. Weight gain or loss is measurable by instruments everyone agrees on called scales. Buy an accurate scale and you can readily measure weight gain or loss. Unlike the Fellowship, fantasy plays no part in assessing the progress of weight gain or loss.

How about a mechanic shop that would, not only not fix your car, but actually break other well operating parts that were fine before you had it fixed there? How about a watch shop that returned your 5 minutes slow watch now running 10 minutes fast? Would you give them repeat business?

Again, your analogies are inapt, for the same reason the restaurant analogy is inapt. Fantasy plays no part in assessing the functioning of your car or your repaired watch.

How about bad movies; do you not only not walk out, but stay to see them a second or third time just to make sure they’re bad, or because you’re good friends with the ticket taker? How about a dry cleaners that put stains in your clothes routinely?

Another reason these analogies are inapt is that they are really too simple. All of them presume that if something is wrong, you would know it right away, it would be obvious. Perhaps a better analogy would not be an analogy at all.

Let me be clear: The Fellowship is a confidence scheme. If you have never read about confidence schemes, you should read about them. There are many articles that have been written about confidence men (“con men”) and confidence schemes. The objective of a confidence scheme is the transfer of things of value from the target of the scheme to the operator of the scheme. These things of value could be financial, but they could also consist of labor or adulation. Confidence schemes depend upon the target’s CONFIDENCE IN THE OPERATOR which develops using specific and identifiable techniques. I invite you to read a little bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick

Keep in mind these examples are all rather mundane in comparison to one’s spiritual development. If an individual would be careful in the above areas they would take even more care to get it right spiritually; if indeed that was what they were looking for initially.

See, the assumption is that one can avoid deception and manipulation by spiritual confidence men by being earnest, careful, and of clean heart. I certainly believed this. I daresay others will chime in that they too believed this. But it is not true.

So to stay so long in an organization that hurt or damaged the spirit would be highly unlikely. Staying for friends sake? I would not stay in such an organization long enough to even make friends!

This assumes that you would know when your spirit was hurt and damaged. But the confounding effect of ideology is that your spirit may be hurt and damaged again and again, but you have been indoctrinated to attach a particular label to it that recasts it as something which occurred for your spiritual benefit and so you endure it.

As far as sociopaths go, their shelf life is pretty short. They all end up imploding rather quickly.

Sorry joe, it just ain’t so. You should read Robert Hare’s classic work, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us. I believe it’s in print and you can buy it on Amazon.

40 years is unprecedented, except in a police state where the sociopath is the police chief. Even Saddam fell short of Robert’s tenure. So, this sleep inducing organization with a narcissist in charge after 40 years still charges 30% to 40 % of member’s income so they can attend meetings and dinners (for extra charges), all to get the opposite of what they intended to get when they joined. All to get not enlightenment, but sleep through brainwashing.

You do understand the literal argument being made. You just reject it as preposterous. I understand why. But rather than just reject it out of hand, consider it. I am not alone in making this argument. If I was among the Lake Wobegone elect as a member, surely I am not making the argument out of stupidity. And I say to you, believe what you want, I am not making it out of sour grapes either.

For brevity’s sake, I’ll address the remainder of your post separately.

35. elena - November 22, 2008

Ton,

It’s good to see people here understanding the real issue. Everything you say about DC is accurate and yet it is relevant to point out that he is not making it up. You could insult him and torture him and you would not be able to force sense into a process that has taken years to take place. These people need help for a long time. They need individual and social therapy.

What amazes me about him is that I thought there were not many as masterfully divided as Girard, but hearing him I realize there are too many. You could not remain inside without being seriously divided into two distinct personalities. The whole of the Fellowship is a legion of hasnamuses in different degrees of this retrograde process.

Dragon, you said you worked in a mental institution. Have you ever seen something like this in other types of patients?

It took me four years of listening to Girard almost everyday to understand what was actually happening. The theoretical division of human and divine runs parallel with the split personalities. But it is not intentional or conscious, that is what makes them so dangerous. We are not talking about one criminal trying to commit a particular crime, we are talking about a collective psychosis in which the members can no longer perceive that their actions harm everyone involved: A Cult in the purest sense of the word.

One of the things that makes it so sad is that these people were simply ashamed of themselves. They were unable to live with their own humanity and sexuality so they had to divide it into higher and lower and “disconnect” from the lower. Disconnect to the point that they can no longer perceive what they’ve decided to disconnect from so rape is no longer perceived as rape, depression is not connected to the lifestyle and the severe neglect of children and old people together with everybody else, is not perceived as blatant social decadence.

They were caught up in the psychological hang up of the old generation in which sexuality was a closed doors deal of macho men who had to fuck whores to get exited enough and could not get an erection with their wives without raping them and the new generation in which you could give it free reigns. They gave free reigns to what they were trying to run away from: a sick sexuality rather than an open acceptance of themselves and their humanity.

The fact that they have to disguise it in a gold alchemy environment is extremely revealing. They are trying to make “beautiful” what they are too ashamed to accept. Robert thinks that no young man has ever been treated better by his old sex partner than the boys at the Galleria, just like Girard is convinced that no human community ever lived a more organized life. He loves to keep it “organized” because it proves to him that there is nothing wrong in it. For him, it is not a dictatorship, it is “divinely organized” by his own mathematical master mind.
This is their dream and they are doing their best. THAT is what makes them so dangerous.

The well-meaning, decent people of the outer circle are particularly vulnerable precisely because of these qualities. It takes a lot of malice to deal with the devil.

In their shame for the “humanity” that they were unable to cope with, Robert and Girard had to develop a community that was totally disinfected of “those human impulses” but strangely enough the result is that people become socially frigid and privately “desperate” or extremely neurotic, depressed, ill.

The more they can justify that the machine is the lower self and is disconnected from the higher, the more they can indulge in the lower without corrupting the higher. They have to keep the “higher” or their imaginary picture of themselves, “disinfected” from the machine to be able to indulge in the lower. Separating them is the key to their indulgence. If they accept the connection, they have to control the sexuality that they are ashamed to assume, that overpowers them. It is socially, the secret addiction that they cannot control and privately the tremendous suffering of a shame that they cannot forgive themselves: their own wonderful human sexuality: love and its expression in life.

Love then disappears from the picture both personally and socially and the only thing that remains is the “Cult” to the Imaginary Picture of the World and themselves. Every member works for the “divine,” without a trace of human love or healthy sexuality. Touching, kissing, exposing one’s body are “institutionalized” and “freedom to be” is put in a straight jacket.

The members accept the activities of the Galleria because it channels the possibility of a sexuality that they are being denied. Their own support of it is a desperate cry against the restrictions they are themselves having to suffer. Only, none of this is done “consciously”. It simply happens. Like rain, when you put enough darkness in the clouds of the soul.

Neither Robert nor Girard can accept sexuality. In their mind, what they are doing is freeing themselves from the energy of higher states. They cannot even accept that it is just sex. They think of it as a necessary outlet to the divine energy that they are experiencing. Isn’t it amazing how things get turned around? It may look terrible but if you look at it with the necessary compassion, it is pitiful.

The problem is that these pitiful human beings are institutionalizing their “moi de vivre” on too many people. When you connect with such structures, your own structure gets affected and we could have this madness repeat itself for generations without anyone willing to stop it. We are already in that danger. On the blog these things have been obvious to anyone who has never been in the Fellowship, but ninety percent of Fellowship ex-members are just trying to run away without looking back at what happened to them. What exactly they were involved in and how it affected them. I am far from being free from the effects of such life.

A friend told me yesterday that a member who had just found out about the boys peeing on Robert explained it away as “work on humility”!!!

When I understand these things well enough, it will be possible to put them in half a page. I am sorry that I am just finding out as I write.

36. Jomo Piñata - November 22, 2008

Lacuna Piñata:

In fact, the second part of this post is intended to say that as I see it, cults, in the sense they are articulated here and by people like Rick Ross, do not even exist. It is a completely trumped up and arbitrary designation.

I understand that you believe this. I myself am not a big fan of the word cult. I prefer the unwieldy “high intensity, high control, closed group which engages in deceptive and manipulative conduct.”

The present usage of the word in my estimation is a “catchall” term that becomes a haven for 21st century bigotry. Man has bigotry deeply embedded in his heart, so when one form is exposed for what it is man will look for other forms to transfer his hatred into. Racial and gender bigotry have been sufficiently exposed for what they are and new havens must exist to house man’s insatiable hunger for judging others inferior. Cult-watching is one such avenue.

You seem to be suggesting that the use of the term “cult” is a pejorative that is the outcome of bigotry. Maybe there are some people who use the term that way. That is not how I use the term.

You, more than anyone on the blog, have offered proof of what I’m talking about.

I’m not getting what you are saying. Are you talking about the comparisons I have made between processes occurring in the Fellowship and processes that occurred in Nazi Germany? Are you talking about the comparisons I made between Girard’s statements and Rudolf Hess’s statements?

Man is cultish by nature and from his inception as a race. Man started life as a member of a tribe and the race propagated into other tribes. Tribes fit every definition of a cult.

The statement that “tribes fit every definition of a cult” is not true. “High intensity, high control, closed groups that engage in deceptive and manipulative practices” are invariably authoritarian, either overtly or covertly. One of the things that made the Fellowship so attractive at the beginning was that it didn’t seem to be about a particular individual. There were no pictures of a guru, no candlelit meditation sessions trying to connect with his eternal love, etc., etc. It was so apparently not about him that when I asked his name, I was told it was an “ordinary name.” The paradox is that the Fellowship has ultimately proved to be about nothing but him!

Every now and then someone warns us that a particular group of conforming individuals represents a cult by posting lists of telltale signs. If those signs or conditions are applied per say almost any organization can be classified as a cult. We could start with the U S military. Or the Boy Scouts of America, the Shriners, Daughters of the Revolution, Veterans of Foreign Wars, Enron, The Dallas Cowboys – talk about controlling – football teams will tell their members what to eat, when to eat it, who to associate with, how to dress, when they can talk to the press, when to go to bed, etc. Then after their playing career most players end up cripple – talk about victimized.

There is a good article by the late Margaret Singer which I encourage you to look at, differentiating the United States Marine Corps from a cult:

http://tinyurl.com/usmc-is-not-a-cult

You should pay special attention to #10.

The entire cult designation is bogus without taking into account the fact that anyone or anything can fit the mold if taken at face value. There are certainly individuals who form, or become leaders, of organizations who in turn manipulate / charm / indoctrinate other individuals but they are found in every walk of life, not only religious or spiritual arenas. Brainwashing equally does not exist as the term is applied.

I understand this opinion, but as I read you, you have never really examined the concept of brainwashing. You have put up a straw man and are knocking him down. I say to you, you have a better mind than that, you are capable of more. Educate yourself about THOUGHT REFORM. There are specific and identifiable techniques that, when applied to YOU, affect how you take in information, how you think, how you see the world, without your knowledge or consent. Science has known about these techniques for nearly fifty years. The Chinese Communists used them on American prisoners of war during the Korean War. EDUCATE yourself. Don’t be content with Hollywood stereotypes of real things, like thought reform.

The second state is a breeding ground for brainwashing, its just a matter of who one allows to wash one’s brain. And the only way to deprogram yourself from the second state, ironically, is to rise to the level of the third state, the domain of schools.

Brother, that’s a far too ideological statement for me to let you get away with it. You are referring me to your Gurdjieff Ouspensky map of the universe. It’s a defective map. It doesn’t lead anywhere at all. Not to undermine your confidence in it. When you give it up, it will be because you understand in your bones that it’s a bad map.

A Manson, a Jim Jones, a Billy Graham, an Ophra Winfrey, a Hitler, an Obama. It is the same indoctrination process. The same buying into.

This is not reasoned argument. It’s just an assertion, and a very superficial assertion at that. The fact is, you assume it to be true. The truth is, you haven’t really thought about it very much. You certainly haven’t read up on the subject.

Men are joiners, conformists. When a person is “deprogrammed” by cult busters nothing is reversed because was altered. It only means the person is immune to the doctrine of the particular organization they exited. But they are wholly susceptible to the next application of “brainwashing.”

Again, you are talking about things that you don’t know anything about as though you do. Doesn’t that have a name in the Ouspensky lingo? You would be better served by learning about things before having opinions about those things.

This blog is as much a cult as what ex members claim the FoF is.Replete with its leaders, followers, alphas, company line, lingo, unwritten laws.

This blog is pretty much a free-for-all. Nothing cult-like about it, so far as I can see.

The strongest proof that cults do not exist is the Nazi movement.(a post you introduced) This is an example of an entire world super power becoming a cult. 100,000 people. This should be proof for all that cultism is a deeply ingrained human trait, not an odd occurrence by a certain kind of easily indrotrinatable individual.

Hoo, hoo, this one’s a doozy. Pretty contorted notion that because a whole country fell victim to a psychopath, cults don’t exist. What about “writ big, writ small”?

The main point I want to get across is, almost *anyone* can fall prey to a confidence game. Almost anyone.

All those Germans did not lose their cultish nature when the Third Reich came down; they just imperceptibly transferred it into some other less audacious area.
Then again, many begin and end life as a cult of one.

Lacuna, my man, you runnin’ out of steam, you beginnin’ to babble, you using words you don’t even know the meaning of. But you’ve told us your position. Bravo.

37. Renald - November 22, 2008

re 297 elena

“Renald, O.K. I’ll play with you. I completely agree with you, there is a dimension in which we attract everything that happens to us but with the same stick, the Fellowship, that is, every member inside, is now attracting everything that is happening to them.

If I misunderstood you before, it was because the idea is brought in a moment in which it reinforces Daily Cardiac’s position.“

Yes the law of attraction applies to everyone and everything, even DC.
If it happens to reinforce DC`s position, well what can I do? It is merely an opinion anyways and may change at any moment. The position he holds also can change the same way mine and yours did in the past. It really does not matter to me if he or you or I change our positions either. I am happy now and not too concerned about you or him/they, whatever the case may be.

When you sound happy to me in a post, that is an impression that I can choose to dwell upon or not and the same with the opposite.
When you are feeling a negative emotion you do nothing except offer resistance to anything which would make you happy. That is exclusion. When you are feeling a positive emotion you simply move up the scale and release resistance. I will list a group of emotions to help you see the relative relationship between them. It is easier to move in small steps and quite unlikely to be able to make a large jump, at least at first.

1. Joy/Knowledge/Empowerment/Freedom/Love/Appreciation
2. Passion
3. Enthusiasm/Eagerness/Happiness
4. Positive expectation/Belief
5. Optimism
6. Hopefulness
7. Contentment
8. Boredom
9. Pessimism
10. Frustration/Irritation/Impatience
11. Overwhelment
12. Disappointment
13. Doubt
14. Worry
15. Blame
16. Discouragement
17. Anger
18. Revenge
19. Hatred/Rage
20. Jealousy
21. Insecurity/Guilt/Unworthiness
22. Fear/Grief/Depression/Despair/Powerlessness

A conscious effort is required to pinpoint which emotion is being felt or at least an approximate one. Play acting here is useful, faking it as it is sometimes said. Eventually the mood shifts and one can keep moving up the scale. I borrowed the list from the book “Ask And It Is Given“,“Learning to Manifest Your Desires “ by Esther and Jerry Hicks. The basics of the teachings of Abraham can be found in the book “The Law of Attraction“, by the same authors,which describes the theory in a more up to date fashion while most others deal with examples and detailed applications or strategies. Elena, if you purchase any of these and are not totally happy that you did, let me know and I will refund you your expense in full. I am that sure. Enjoy!

38. Crouching Tiger - November 22, 2008

DC –

“Ex members are not saying it is a school of awakening that is deficient in some area, undeveloped, below average, poorly run/organized…”

That is actually what I have been saying all along, at least except for the last phrase.

39. Daily Cardiac - November 22, 2008

Correction, Germany’s population during WWII = 100,000,000, not 100,000

40. Daily Cardiac - November 22, 2008

ton – 18:

Re: the current shill posting under the moniker DC – just to get a little clearer picture of what we’re dealing with here, we see diversion in every post… “seperation of church and state” ???!!! BULLSHIT on top of BULLSHIT… completely ‘off the wall’ BULLSHIT… in fact the shill is just slinging shit on the wall to see what sticks. The shill tries to redirect the conversation by stating what “is a central point to the whole discussion…” ABSOLUTE FUCKING BULLSHIT again and again ad nauseum….

” It is not my speech that distresses you, it is my presence”

Shakespeare

41. veramente - November 22, 2008

32 DC
“Actually I see something very different happening. What I actually see is that the more extreme ex members are in their criticism of the FoF the more preposterous becomes their position, and the more preposterous their position the more unsupportable their claims. ”
—————-

42. Peter - November 22, 2008

Panorea (30)

I’m just happy to hear your out of this little cult.
Be happy, the best of your life is to come now.

And all of your so called friends, cry about them
but not too long, you really don’t need them.

I know you allways worked very hard.

Now just enjoy your own days, and all
the things in this new and simple life.
A better life.

43. unoanimo - November 22, 2008

deleted at the author’s request

44. Daily Cardiac - November 22, 2008

Crouching Tiger – 36:

Let me get it straight; you are saying the FoF IS a conscious school, just one that is deficient here or there, not perfect?

45. Crouching Tiger - November 22, 2008

DC, if it was conscious then it wouldn’t have any deficiencies in its teachings or its teaching tools would it? It would be perfectly adapted.

I think the school has its own place, simply through the fact that it continues to exist, but that place is much further down the scale than you imagine… It can’t move beyond its imperfections, just as RB can’t seem to move past his.

But I’m equally sure it held something of value for everyone participating here at one time or another.

46. Panorea - November 22, 2008

DC 32

quoting out of context…but you must be used to it by now…:

…The overall makeup of the membership, past and present, indicates a higher than average degree of intelligence, education, alchemy, reliability…

-Haven’t you noticed? The people you write about are long gone darling. And it will not take you long either. Take care of yourself and remember that there is a lot of help and love out of the cult.

As a friend of mine said: “the veil Robert was talking about was only removed the day I left.”

Good luck with unveiling your life. You will find presence and fun and true love.

47. Panorea - November 22, 2008

Hi Peter!

how fun to hear from you here. Of course, you remember the real name…

Actually, most of my friends are out. Happily putting the pieces of their lives together.

Why are you not on the Greater Fellowship?

Wishing you a wonderful day!

48. Panorea - November 22, 2008

31. unoanimo

Yes, as Ben Franklin used to say, “Three people can keep a secret when the other two are dead.”

-I see…where are the dead bodies???

49. ton - November 22, 2008

Re: the shill DC…
you really have to read between the lines to reveal the truth in what is written. i took the time to look over that last post by DC and realized it just requires a bit of ‘proof reading’ some tweaking and few minor corrections and the truth is revealed in DC’s own words:

“Lacuna have you considered that your continued membership in the Fellowship after all these years might be Exhibit A for the proposition that cults are difficult to leave?”

“What I actually see is that the more extreme FOF/cult members are, the more preposterous becomes their position, and the more preposterous their position the more unsupportable their claims.

And the design is such that the further FOF/cult members push their viewpoint the more they call attention to the fallacy of it.

The first thing to consider is the fact that I am proposing that the FoF is not a school of awakening, in some areas, undeveloped, below average, poorly run/organized.

The FoF is the exact and utter opposite of what it claims to be. difficult it is to explain many indisputable facts that strongly suggest otherwise.

The FoF has been in existence for nearly 40 years. The overall makeup of the membership, past and present, indicates a higher than average degree of intelligence, education, alchemy, reliability.”

(You give yourself too much credit).

“The norm for people’ s stay, in many cases, is lenghty; 15, 20, even 30 years. All of these individuals presumably were looking for a school of awakening. all these intelligent, well intentioned people found and were duped by the exact opposite; an organization that by ex members own account induced “sleep”, and to top it off, one run by a sociopath devoid of a conscience. The implications are so fantastic it’s mind boggeling to even conjure up analogies, but here’s an attempt…”

(Look, DC you were doing fine up till this point but here’s where you go off the deep end into the morass of FUZZY THINKING — the attempted analogies don’t help, all the bullshit about diet and healthy food, car mechanics, stopped watches, bad movies and repeat business, it’s all beside the point and a waste of your time and the reader’s. i’ll do some editing for you here. stick to the facts, that will give more clarity to your analysis).

“As far as sociopaths go, their shelf life is pretty short.”

(though not short enough).

“They all end up imploding rather quickly.”

(this generalized statement is baseless).

“40 years is unprecedented, except in a police state where the sociopath is the police chief. Even Saddam fell short of Robert’s tenure.”

(on the one hand i understand why you would compare these two hasnamasuses… but you give Robot too much credit as far as successful sociopaths go, he is ‘small potatoes’ in comparison and besides, there are no oil reserves under the property in OH otherwise he would be toast too).

“So, this sleep inducing organization with a narcissist in charge after 40 years still charges 30% to 40 % of member’s income so they can attend meetings and dinners (for extra charges), all to get the opposite of what they intended to get when they joined. All to get not enlightenment, but sleep through brainwashing.

If you really try I’m sure you can come up with other reasons why this organization has flourished so long, and still flourishes today.

So, to answer your question I think my staying is ‘Exhibit A for the proposition that cults are difficult to leave.’

In fact, the second part of this post is intended to say that as I see it, cults, in the sense they are articulated here and by people like Rick Ross, exist.

Man is cultish by nature and from his inception as a race. Man started life as a member of a tribe and the race propagated into other tribes. Tribes fit every definition of a cult. Every now and then someone warns us that a particular group of conforming individuals represents a cult by posting lists of telltale signs. If those signs or conditions are applied per say almost any organization can be classified as a cult.

(You are veering off a bit here but I don’t disagree with you… what you don’t acknowledge is that there is a range of cultism to consider: there are benign and destructive forms of the ‘cult’ phenomenon. Lest we veer off into more FUZZY thinking let’s stick to the case in point, that being the FOF cult… in the following paragraph you do ‘veer off’ into unrelated cases, so i’ll do a bit of editing to help with the focus here).

“There are certainly individuals who form, or become leaders, of organizations who in turn manipulate / charm / indoctrinate other individuals but they are found in every walk of life, not only religious or spiritual arenas.

Brainwashing does exist as the term is applied. The second state is a breeding ground for brainwashing, its just a matter of who one allows to wash one’s brain. And the only way to deprogram yourself from the second state, ironically, is to rise to the level of the third state, the domain of schools.”

(be careful with use of that ‘special language’ used by ‘the system.’ watch out for the cult-speak; remember it’s part of the programming and brainwashing you identify).

“A Manson, a Jim Jones, a Billy Graham, an Ophra Winfrey, a Hitler, an Obama. It is the same indoctrination process. The same buying into.”

(Ophra and Hitler? the subtlety and distinction in your thinking is astounding… you’ve got to be kidding, right?! this is just idiotic, but i have a ‘grope’ as to what’s behind this… you need to re-examine this nonsensical FUZZY thinking in the context of your inner processes of rationalizing support for your ‘very own’ cult leader… and stick to the point).

“Men are joiners, conformists. When a person is “deprogrammed” by cult busters nothing is reversed because was altered. It only means the person is immune to the doctrine of the particular organization they exited. But they are wholly susceptible to the next application of “brainwashing.”

(what about women…? your sentence structure here is confused).

“The strongest proof that cults do exist is the Nazi movement.(a post you introduced) This is an example of an entire world super power becoming a cult. 100,000 people. This should be proof for all that cultism is a deeply ingrained human trait, not an odd occurrence by a certain kind of easily indrotrinatable individual.

All those Germans did not lose their cultish nature when the Third Reich came down; they just imperceptibly transferred it into some other less audacious area.

(I don’t know why you would use the word ‘audacious’ here….? it seems you are avoiding the obvious…. the more appropriate word here would be ‘destructive.’ That really is the issue… there are more and less destructive pursuits and applications of the human tendency toward cultism. it’s a stretch to try to draw a comparison of the FOF with the Nazis but i understand why you would implicitly attempt to do so… you think because the FOF cult is not as destructive as the Nazis that it somehow absolves and justifies your participation and support).

“Then again, many begin and end life as a cult of one.”

(an odd and telling conclusion here. one person alone does not make a cult, a cult is a collective, one is called an individual, individuality is different than a cult, get a clue).

50. Old Fish in the Sea - November 22, 2008

Once upon a time there was a young man who wanted to be special. One day he went to the doctor and explained his predicament. The doctor examined him and after a little thought said he had cancer – a special kind of almost incurable cancer. At first he was terrified but he was somewhat relieved when the Doctor told him he could cure his cancer. All he had to do was give up his suffering and practice regularly a few simple psychological exercises.

The young man worked very hard with the exercises. He was told that he must not talk with any former patients and that if he did his cancer would come back. He paused at this and it was explained that not talking to former patients helped their chances of returning to the clinic for care. That made perfect sense. Yes it did.

The young man did his best with all exercises. He took pride in his efforts until one day the Doctor became angry at him and said he would not treat him anymore. The young man left the clinic, thinking he might die soon, but as time passed he felt certain that he had been cured. He realized that at long last he was indeed special. He began to think that everyone except for him had the cancer. He was so pleased that he decided he would become a doctor and help all the people as he had been helped. This was the right thing to do.

After some years the young man became the Doctor. When patients would come he would tell them that he thought they had cancer. Patients would say “Are you sure, Doc?”. The doctor explained that there were some simple tests. He suggested that they go without expressing frustration or self pity and that if they could do this that they were probably healthy and did not have cancer. He told them to watch themselves continually and if they lost that feeling of watching, even for a second, it meant they were dying, dying of a special biological kind of cancer. Soon many admitted that the Doctor must be right. They could not refute their obvious trouble with attention.

Yes, it was certain, they did have cancer, but they were relieved because the Doctor told them that he could cure them. He told them that it would not be easy. He told them they would need to dedicate their lives to being cured. He told them that he was the only doctor that could cure this type of cancer and told them not to talk to any former patients. He also told them that if they asked for a 2nd opinion regarding their cancer that he would have to ask them to leave the Clinic. He assured them that he was the expert and that they could not trust any other doctors. He called them B-rated doctors.

After a while there were so many patients that the Doctor had to make some of them assistants. He told the assistants that their cancer was in mild remission but that it could come back. The assistants were so happy to hear the good news. They felt the Doctor was like a God. They told all the new patients what a wonderful Doctor he was. Pretty soon many of the patients began to feel some remission from the cancer. They also exclaimed the merits of the Doctor. The rumor spread that the Doctor worked with the angels. The Doctor indeed said he was an angel. The assistants knew it must be true, how else could you explain that despite the cancer, no-one in the clinic was dying. How else could you explain such a large and intelligent group of people paying so much for so long. Yes, this was the best clinic on earth.

The Doctor was expensive but that was ok since he was the only Doctor that could cure this kind of cancer. There was no other option.

Once, a frustrated patient noticed that nobody was dying and that the Doctor was not doing much. He noticed that the Doctor was addicted to several things including Nitrous Oxide. He was uncomfortable with what he saw and he went to the assistants for advice. The Assistants quietly told the patient “No, you do indeed have cancer and only the Doctor can cure you. They would appeal to the patient’s reason, noting that he could not hold his attention or not express frustration “Look, you are even frustrated now” – proof that he did have cancer and that the cancer was gaining power over him. That was scary.

The Doctor would sometimes describe in gruesome detail how Death awaited those that left. We are not better – just luckier.

One day a patient exclaimed that the Doctor should be examined. “The Doctor’s habits need open discussion”. This patient was dismissed that day from the clinic and never seen again. The assistants explained that the cancer was too strong in him and so, in the interest of all, he had to be let go. That made perfect sense. Yes it did.

Many stayed. Some for their whole lives.

Some of those that left were convinced that they did not have cancer. They even suspected that they had never had it. They tried to explain this to the patients in the clinic but the patients were concerned about speaking. Additionally, all the evidence assured the patients that they really did have cancer. They felt a little sorry for those that had left the clinic but felt that it was right. The clinic could only be helpful to those that needed the clinic and knew they needed it.

This went on for 40 years. The Doctor became very rich. He was pleased that he had helped so many with cancer. His patients were also pleased because they felt their cancer was in remission.

Some of the patients realized that they were going to die with or without the clinic. They also noticed that the Doctor’s addiction to nitrous oxide made him act in ways that were hard to understand. In fact he was not always very logical and he sometimes did things that were morally questionable. They sadly left the clinic to let the inevitable occur – to die the death, but to at least be free from the stench of the clinic until they died.

But instead of dying they found they were happy! They noticed that they felt better than they ever had in the clinic. They hugged and danced with each other in joy. They formed a Greater Fellowship of Survivors.

They tried to tell the patients what they had learned but the patients would have nothing of it.

They explained that the Doctor had cured them of cancer (or at least it was in remission). They explained that the Doctor was a God and played with angels and that this was the reason that he was hard to understand. They explained how the exercises showed the power of the cancer. They called the cancer the lower self. They talked about the power that the sequence of psychological exercises had over the lower self. No, they were happy with the clinic. They would stay at the clinic until they died and be burried at the clinic.

You could hear them say, “Too bad those that left the clinic were so resentful. The cancer must be getting them. Their cancer was just too strong. ”

Oh well.

51. elena - November 22, 2008

Renald,

You are avoiding to answer the post I sent you and are presenting your own agenda leaving no room for dialogue, very much like in any Cult.

This is unfortunate even if you think that makes you happy.

52. dragon - November 22, 2008

26. Walter J. Tanner – November 21, 2008

Thank you very much for your informations. In our “Storm and Stress” times of youth, we make our experiences and I think everyone on the Blog and elsewhere can tell about experiences similar to yours but concerning different contexts.

The question that remains in my mind is:

Why are/were those teachers with a GENIUNE LINEAGE to Gurdjieff or Ouspensky in the FOF?

Are/were they TEACHERS?

53. dragon - November 22, 2008

32. Daily Cardiac – November 22, 2008

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh…the myths a verb can tell, DAILY CARDIAC. The resonance of its mental present in our thoughts, its call to awaken and engage, to activate. It pushes and pulls reluctant time, harries and prods fickle memory. The root of action, the key to energy’s heart and borders, it is both all-out attack and decay, beginning and end…

Tales of Rebirth: TRUTH

Dear DC, talking about demography could be an interesting topic for you as well. To face the facts here’s some „material“ you might be interested in: (Deutschland im Wandel, Geschichte der deutschen Bevölkerung seit 1815, Michel Hubert, Franz Steiner Verlag Stuttgart).

Prof. Emeritus Michel Hubert was over thirty years a member of the Université Sorbonne Nouvelle.
EA 4223 – Centre d’études et de recherches sur l’espace germanophone – CEREG
Institut d’Allemand Université Sorbonne Nouvelle – Paris III 94, avenue des Grésillons
92600 Asnières

Le CEREG is highly interested in your profound insights concerning German history and demography, please feel so free and make a contact:
Mèl : ctw@free.fr
Téléphone : 01 46 13 48 50
Télécopie : 01 46 13 48 66

54. elena - November 22, 2008

DC. I agree with you, the processes are basically the same, it’s the aim what changes. Dictatorships are all alike and there’s no big difference between the nazi dictatorship and the Fellowship in its structure. Or the Capitalist or Communist Cults with the respective religion that supports them. The non religion of the Communists was in itself “the Cult”.

Cult’s like the Fellowship though are like extreme caricatures of the times. The search for alternatives to the status quo develops these Cults which prove more deadly than the illness. But yes, we all learn from them and the people willing to sacrifice themselves in the decadence of such forms are in the long run, just pitied.

So far you have only been able to present decadent aspects of mankind which, as Draco points out, justify the Fellowship’s decent. Is there any struggle or human being worth your praise? I doubt it since for you a Hitler stands side by side to an Obama for you’ve lost the ability to discriminate the content but you do seem to be having a ball sliding down the dark side of the moon.

55. elena - November 22, 2008

“Many scientists call the sense of balance an unconscious function like digestion rather than a sense activity. But it is a sense because it reveals itself as such when we slip, or turn around quickly and the room starts to spin and we become dizzy. But there is also a psychiatric illness called manic depression in which people swing between deep depression and melancholy, or are over-excitable and manic, feeling themselves so full of strength and power that they can do anything, regardless of anything or anyone around them; they rise so high that the world falls away from their existence. This condition in which a person is elated and then thrown into the depths of melancholy, is due to a dysfunction in the sense of equilibrium.” From “Living Physiology” by Karl Konig.

Could this lack of balance be connected with the fact that in our “separations” the different sides start weighing more than the person can carry? That the more members divide into the “higher” and “lower” self, the stronger the manic depression? I’ve had a very similar condition throughout this year, even if my highs and lows have very different concepts to the Fellowships. The intensity of the extremes has been surprisingly mild in this last month.

As I understand Konig, it is not that the manic depression is just an instinctive phenomenon but that the state of imbalance of the I, ego, will take on physical as well as emotional and intellectual characteristics. We could in fact continue and include, individual and social characteristics.

I offer this for those who are still struggling with depression and because to me, they are “clinical” observations that eventually more professional people will be able to profit from, when we develop “social therapy” side by side to individual therapy.

56. ton - November 22, 2008

Regarding the postings of the most recent shill (DC), acting as a ‘deployable agent’ and the product of FOF brainwashing:

a few excerpts from an interesting, highly detailed (and much longer) paper by Benjamin D. Zablocki called —

Exit Cost Analysis: A New Approach to the Scientific Study of Brainwashing…

REFRAMING THE CONCEPT IN TERMS OF EXIT COSTS

Affiliation and Disaffiliation Rational choice theory has made significant contributions to our understanding of the dynamics of religious affiliation under societal conditions allowing for freedom of religious choice. Religious markets are modeled as settings in which religious entrepreneurs (churches, sect movements, cult movements, denominations, and individual charismatic leaders) compete for the affiliation of religious “consumers.”

In their pathbreaking general theory of religion, it is interesting to note that Stark and Bainbridge hardly mention the issue of disaffiliation from religious groups. This is surprising because the same deductive process that leads us to predict that religious groups will compete fiercely for valued consumers also leads us to predict that they will struggle fiercely to hold the loyalties of consumers once they have been captured.

Although the ability to prevent disaffiliation is sharply curtailed by law and custom in a free religious marketplace, this ability is by no means nonexistent.

With respect to totalistic religious groups, because of their relational isolation and the intense psychological investments sometimes required, I am hypothesizing that exit costs in these groups may sometimes be quite high. Relational networks and dependence upon specific religions as life support systems both work powerfully to limit freedom of choice in switching decisions.

Exit cost analysis may be defined as the systematic study of all disincentives for leaving voluntary collectivities. Clearly there are many types of exit costs ranging from financial penalties, to relational commitments, to various sorts of cognitive and emotional dependencies. It is important to emphasize that exit cost analysis is not particularly concerned with the exit process or with the later stages of a person’s involvement with a religious collectivity.

On the contrary, exit cost analysis is primarily concerned the paradox of feeling trapped in what is nominally a voluntary association. It asks not, “Why did they leave?” but rather, “What prevents them from leaving?”

My ultimate aim is to identify all of the various types of exit costs imposed by religious collectivities on members who might otherwise choose to leave. However, I focus in this paper on one particular type of exit cost. This is the type that results from the deliberate manipulation of members by charismatic leaders.

The brainwashing conjecture argues that there are conditions under which members of a religious organization may be systematically resocialized to become deployable agents of that organization with strong internalized disincentives for leaving.

Much of the acrimony surrounding the debate over the validity of brainwashing as a scientific concept is traceable to the fact that many who have argued about the concept have done so using culturally based definitions rather than definitions tied directly to attempts to explain observable behaviors. Such moves are counterproductive. Without agreement on the behaviors for which explanation is sought, how can we ever find criteria for determining objectively which concepts are useful in building explanations?

Fortunately (and surprisingly, in light of how much controversy surrounds the subject of brainwashing), a great degree of consensus among scholars exists at this elementary level of behavioral description.

A Definition of Brainwashing
Brainwashing may be defined as a set of transactions between a charismatically led collectivity and an isolated agent of the collectivity with the goal of transforming the agent into a deployable agent…. there exist three levels of affiliation in such collectivities: recruits, agents, and deployable agents.

A recruit is a person who is considering membership in the group and perhaps is also being courted by the group. An agent is a person who has already made the commitment to become a member of the group and accept its goals. A deployable agent is a person who has internalized the group’s goals to such an extent that he or she can be counted on with high probability to act so as to implement those goals even when free of direct surveillance and even when those goals run counter to the individual’s personal goals.

The target of brainwashing is always an individual who has already joined the group. The brainwashing concept is not useful in explaining how recruits are transformed into ordinary members. Moreover, the target of influence is always an isolated individual. Even when a closely bonded married couple joins a cult movement as a family, the brainwashing process at some point separates the two people from each other, psychologically if not always physically.

Each individual is taken separately through a process of preference modification supported by a charismatically legitimated and internally consistent view of the world. Some people may be more susceptible to brainwashing than others (and a given person may be more susceptible at certain times of life than others).

However, the brainwashing model does not focus primarily on characteristics of the subject. The assumption is that many different kinds of people can, with enough effort, be brainwashed. Since brainwashing is a result of social-psychological influences, a fuller definition of the term must include a description of the prerequisite structural conditions under which it can occur, the interaction process that actually produces the influence, and the effects that the influence has on both the individual subject and the collectivity.

Structural Prerequisites
Brainwashing has always been a statistically rare phenomenon because most social situations are not conducive to its occurrence. The brainwashing model, as developed by Robert Lifton, requires that it take place within a complex and costly structure of social control. This system exhibits eight observable characteristics of totalism.

These are milieu control, mystical manipulation, the demand for purity, the cult of confession, the sacred science, loading the language, doctrine over person, and the dispensing of existence. Ideological totalism is an efficient breeding ground for deployable agents. What makes it so is the absence of external frames of reference with which to evaluate critically the outcomes of charismatic influence.

Totalism is not a dysfunctional by-product of rigid minds. It can be a rationally optimal way to structure beliefs to make charismatic compliance, once achieved, something close to an absorbing personal status.

Distinguishing features of ideological totalism are (1) an absence of even the smallest areas of personal privacy exempt from ideological evaluation and (2) an absence of peccadilloes, such that every sin becomes a cardinal sin. These features, while at first sight bizarre, serve a clear function in reducing defections among deployable agents.

It is probably not necessary to have every one of Lifton’s eight structural characteristics of ideological totalism in place for brainwashing to occur. However, the closer a religious collectivity comes to embodying a system of social control characterized by these eight structural elements, the easier it is for brainwashing to occur.

Interaction Process
Within the context of such a totalistic social system, an influence process is necessary for these modifications to be brought about. This influence process is a manipulative sequence of orchestrated events featuring the alternation of psychological assault and leniency over a prolonged period… ritualized rehearsals of taboo activities meant to desensitize the subject to their actual importance.

The process takes the subject through three sequential stages: (1) the stripping process, in which the old preference and value structures are removed; (2) identification, in which the subject attempts to become as much like the other cult members as possible; and (3) symbolic death and rebirth, in which the subject internalizes the new structure of preferences and values. Lifton has argued that, throughout these stages, resocialization is energized primarily by the constant fluctuation between assault and leniency and repeated cycles of reeducation, and refinement of….

Effects
The result of this process, when successful, is to make the individual a deployable agent of the charismatic authority. This is not merely commitment but a form of commitment that does not depend on continuous surveillance by the group. A rational choice perspective on the brainwashing model conceives of this process as a fundamental restructuring of self through a reorganization of preferences.

We are talking about change on a deep although not necessarily permanent level. Lifton offers the hypothesis that, in cult movements, “Intense milieu control can contribute to a dramatic change of identity which I call ‘doubling’: the formation of a second self which lives side by side with the former one, often for a considerable time.”

This “doubling” or creation of a shadow self is something that I have often observed but cannot pretend to understand on more than a metaphoric level. The problem of learning what exactly happens to the individual under these conditions is one of the major challenges for future research on brainwashing. I will offer my own speculative theory on this question in the last section of this paper.

It is also true that researchers studying NRM (new religious movements) members have often administered mental functioning tests which usually find little significant psychotic disorientation. Such results have erroneously been taken as evidence that the members could not possibly have been brainwashed. In fact, the brainwashing conjecture predicts disorientation only during some of the intermediate stages of the brainwashing process, not at the end state.

The popular association of brainwashing with zombie or robot states comes out of a confusion between the physical characteristics of people going through the brainwashing process and the characteristics of people who have completed the process. The former are, at times, so disoriented that they do appear to resemble caricatures of zombies or robots: Glassy eyes, inability to complete sentences, and fixed eerie smiles are characteristics of disoriented people under randomly varying levels of psychological stress.

But the brainwashing process does not simply take people apart. It puts them back together in a new and functionally adequate way. If it did not, they would be useless as deployable agents.

I, myself, happened to witness an entire building full of several hundred highly disoriented Moonies, and it is not an experience that I will ever be able to forget. These people, although gentle and harmless, were frightening in their disjointed affect and loose cognition. But they were not brainwashed, or at least not fully brainwashed. Most of them, quite likely, never went on to complete the brainwashing process. Some may have broken down mentally and been discarded by the movement. Others may have finally found the resources within themselves to leave. Still others may have stayed within the group but never been fully processed through the system.

A fully brainwashed person is emotionally and mentally functional as long as he or she does not contemplate disobedience or apostasy. There are no defining bizarre physical characteristics unless one counts a total unwillingness to discuss or even think about certain taboo subjects. Only the underlying values and preferences of the individual have been modified. The value of deployable agents is precisely that they are submissive without being functionally immobilized.

There are individuals known as seekers. These seekers have measurable characteristics that distinguish them from the larger population. They find cult movements and join them as part of their seeking for something that the dominant culture does not offer. Some stay while others move on to further episodes in their seekership careers. Still others outgrow seekership. To the extent that we find apostasy accounts in individuals with nothing to gain by these accounts, we should be more willing to consider their possible veracity.

Another approach consists of looking for consistency in indepth interviews. Still another approach is the development of a lie factor in questionnaires designed to document the process of movement disenchantment. However, the best way of comparing these two conjectures involves the fifth stage of the behavioral process discussed above. Seekership/ spite suggests that reinterviews with apostates many years after leaving the group should show significant signs of retreat from claims of manipulation especially when there has been a successful reintegration into the larger society. The brainwashing conjecture, by way of contrast, predicts that apostates will hold fast to their accounts of manipulative resocialization for the rest of their lives. I have followed a sample of respondents for periods of time up to 20 years from the date of declared apostasy and have found no examples of recanted accounts. This suggests to me that the spite argument is not consistent with observed data over a sufficient period of time.

The Charismatic Relationship and the Free Rider Problem
Since brainwashing as I have defined it is possible only in the presence of charismatic authority, a theory of brainwashing must be seen in the context of a theory of charisma. This is not to say that all charismatic relationships involve brainwashing, but that brainwashing is a solution to a fundamental problem posed by charismatic authority.

This problem is charisma’s tendency to create cycles of reciprocally escalating demands between the leader and the leader’s agents that result, for the collectivity, in a positive feedback loop which must, sooner or later, spin out of control unless the agents can be made deployable. Coleman has suggested that charisma can be explained as a rational response to the free rider problem.

If all the members of a collectivity can somehow agree to transfer authority over their own actions to a leader who will make decisions on behalf of the group, there can be a vast increase in “social capital,” allowing the collectivity to perform actions beyond the sum of the abilities of the aggregate of individuals. It is possible to see how the maintenance of even a very costly structure for perpetuating charismatic influence can therefore be rational for a collectivity in its pursuit of ambitious collective goals requiring many willing hands.

However, charismatic compliance is never or rarely in the interest of a reasonably competent individual conceived as a simple hedonic actor. As Coleman points out, what is puzzling about charismatic influence is why a rational actor would ever submit to it.

An individual’s control over his own actions is inalienable. The compliance of an agent can be revoked at any moment, however long the history of fidelity. For a charismatic collectivity to have any degree of stability over time, it must find a way to create agents that are not merely committed but deployable as well. Otherwise, a rational individual will retain authority over his or her own decision making while taking a free ride on the charismatic investments of all the other members.

This will create for the group a second-order free rider problem. In the short run, this problem can be staved off by a continuing cycle of crises and triumphs. But the point made by Weber about the need for charismatic authority to be continually proved thrusts two ways. If the charismatic leader can never rest on his laurels in legitimating his authority, neither can the leader’s agent be trusted to remain loyal through yet another crisis just because he or she has been trustworthy in the past. The charismatic leader must appear to be capable of accomplishing extraordinary deeds. Otherwise, there is no basis for the heavy claims that charismatic influence makes on its agents.

But one of the things that makes such accomplishments possible is the trustworthiness of the leader’s agents. This trustworthy corps of agents allows the leader to accomplish deeds that appear even more miraculous which, in turn, justify even greater claims on the followers.

It is obvious that such a system, caught in a positive feedback loop of mutually increasing expectations of miracles and loyalty, can never attain equilibrium.

One way out of the loop is finding a way for the loyalty of the agents to be guaranteed regardless of the actions of the leader.

This is possible only to the extent that the hedonic self is transformed into one driven in large part by normative precommitments involving high exit costs.

Only individuals who have made such precommitment can be trusted to support a charismatic leader in the long run. Such complex internal structures are called by Coleman internal constitutions.

But none of this is helpful to us in theory building unless we can find a window through which we can observe the process whereby individuals develop internal constitutions.

Can we observe a rational agent transferring authority over his or her actions from the hedonic self to the self governed by an internal constitution, thus becoming a deployable agent? This may be possible to the extent that something observable gets rearranged inside the individual when this happens.

I would argue that what gets rearranged are cognitive beliefs of a certain type and emotional dependencies.

My argument is that this transition…. involves both a suspension of incredulity and an addictive orientation to the alternation of arousal and comfort comparable to the mother-infant attachment. This argument is based on the key assumption that all charismatic relationships are dyadic.

Although higher order networks are important and often indispensable in providing the institutional infrastructure for charismatic authority, my assumption is that each follower’s relationship with the charismatic leader is private.

At the cognitive level, this relationship involves the suspension of left-brain criticism of right-brain beliefs such that the beliefs are uncritically and enthusiastically adopted.

There exists some biological evidence for the universality of convictions. Michael Gazzaniga sees convictions as neurologically inevitable byproducts of the division of labor within the brain. The left-brain interpreter working with various right-brain behavior modules imposes consistency on them through mechanisms of belief formation.

Gazzaniga further argues that cognitive dissonance can be shown to be a neurologically inevitable consequence of this internal control mechanism. He cites evidence from temporal lobe epilepsy that a brain injury can cause a deepening of religious conviction: “the brain lesion frees the patients from their personal histories and prepares them for any set of beliefs.”

By preventing even low-level testing of the consequences of our convictions, the individual is able rapidly to be convinced of a changing flow of beliefs, accepted uncritically. It seems reasonable to hypothesize that the cognitive mechanism for precommitment is through the development of certain kinds of beliefs.

Beliefs can be divided into two categories serving different functions: (1) testable beliefs which serve an obvious social reality function; and (2) distal beliefs which cannot be tested and seem to serve no obvious function. Nevertheless, distal beliefs are held by pretty much everyone, so there must be some non-obvious function that they serve.

Let us limit our concern to those convictions that can be classified as distal beliefs (not ordinarily subject to empirical verification). From this point on, I will use the term convictions to refer to strongly held distal beliefs. In the normal person, there is some evidence that convictions, once developed, are treated by the actor as valued possessions. There are, in other words, costs (possibly substantial) to the actor in giving them up.

There is abundant evidence that people tend to defend their convictions even against highly reasonable attacks. Coleman has shown how direct attacks on beliefs polarize communities.
Greenwald has shown that there is a low correlation between recollection of the rational arguments used in persuasion and the degree to which one is persuaded. Abelson offers linguistic evidence that convictions are treated as possessions more than as ways of testing reality.

Based on the above considerations, we can postulate that the cognitive aspect of a simple internal constitution consists of the following: a fluid substrate of hedonic preferences; a mantle of more rigid preferences locked in via convictions; will power as the inner agent that speaks for convictions when they are in opposition to hedonic interests.

However, a more complex (and probably more realistic) model of the internal constitution makes room also for ego defenses—stress induced reactions to anything that threatens convictions and will power. Ego defenses, like convictions, are virtually universal but functionally useless to individuals who are willing constantly to modify their convictions, rationally, in the light of new evidence.

At the emotional level, my hypothesis is that the charismatic relationship recapitulates the attachment-separation relationship between mother and infant. The initial impulse of the charismatic leader is to nurture and of the disciple to be nurtured. The discarded infantile hope for absolute nurturance and the parental hope for unconditional innocent love are revived.

As Smith has argued, . . . the extreme dependency of disciples or followers immediately suggests that there is a root for charismatic appeal in experiences somehow analogous to those of infancy. In particular, the propensity of followers to attribute charismatic qualities to a leader seems akin to the developmental readiness of an infant to “discover” greatness in a parental figure. This relationship involves a mutuality of sensitivity in which each party comes to recognize the other’s cyclical need for arousal and comfort. The equilibrium involved is never a stable one. Indeed, it involves a continual mutual testing similar to what Bowlby has called “anxious attachment.”

Smith and Stevens, with their concept of the hyperstructure, have provided us with a potential tool for understanding the increasingly addictive nature of the relationship between the charismatic leader and each disciple.

Specifically, physiological research over the last several decades… has drawn attention to correlations, widespread among animal species, between endogenous opioid activities in the brain and the dynamics of attachment and separation. . . . Not only testosterone levels, that is, but also opioid fluctuations appear to be controlled through behavioral channels— through dominance and attachment, respectively.

Although it is a stretch to extrapolate from animal to human research, it seems to me that this is a line of investigation worth pursuing. If it really is the case that opiate stimulation and inhibition are involved in the charismatic relationship, this would explain why this relationship often seems to become addicting for both the subordinate and the superordinate.

For the superordinate this is manifested in the oft seen corrupting influence of authority. For the subordinate, it may be manifested in an increasing dependency upon the state of dependency.

Simmonds in his early study of the Jesus Movement argued on the basis of longitudinal psychological testing that the members of this movement were behaving in ways more consistent with our understanding of addiction than with our understanding of conversion. My own studies of the Bruderhof have suggested a similar conclusion. If it is the case that brainwashing can be understood as the process of becoming addicted to a charismatic relationship, we would then have the key for advancing it from a conjecture to a testable theory.

The Role of Brainwashing in Charismatic Restructuring
In these terms, brainwashing can be operationalized as an influence process orchestrated toward the goal of charismatic addiction. My hypothesis is that each of the three stages of brainwashing achieves a plateau in this addictive process. The stripping stage creates the vulnerability to this sort of transformation. The identification stage creates the biochemical alignment, and the rebirth stage creates the fully addicted shadow self.

The cognitive goal of the stripping stage is to destroy prior convictions. The emotional goal of the stripping stage is to create the need for attachments. Overall, at the completion of the stripping stage, the situation is such that the individual is hungry for convictions and attachments and dependent upon the collectivity to supply them. This sort of credulity and attachment behavior is widespread among prisoners and hospital patients

The cognitive goal of the identification stage is to establish a search for conviction and to bring about the erosion of the habit of incredulity. The emotional goal of the identification stage is to instill the habit of acting out through attachment. Overall, at the completion of the identification stage, the individual begins to rely on the collectivity for beliefs and for a cyclic emotional pattern of arousal and comfort. Also at this point, however, this reliance is just one highly valued form of existence. It is not yet viewed as an existential necessity.

The cognitive goal of the rebirth stage is to establish a sense of ownership (and pride of ownership) of the new convictions. The emotional goal of the rebirth stage is to deindividuate to a sufficient extent that one no longer recognizes the emotional validity of life aside from the charismatically led collectivity. Overall, at the completion of the rebirth stage, we may say that the person has become a fully deployable agent of the charismatic leader.

The brainwashing process is complete. If the assumptions made above are correct, this theory should at some point in the future be testable at the biochemical level of the brain. Although it is beyond the scope of this paper to discuss the specific directions for such interdisciplinary research, hopefully I have at least traced the outlines of a viable agenda for theory building.

Hopefully even those readers who remain unconvinced that brainwashing contributes significantly to the costs of leaving cult movements will agree that the costs themselves are frequently not negligible. Too often in sociology, especially in rational choice treatments, we have assumed that they are and that one can change religions almost as easily as one changes hats.

57. Daily Cardiac - November 22, 2008

Opus 111 – 21:

“I am not conversant with legal or ethical issues, but I know that just because I cannot prove to the “average joe” that higher consciousness exists, does not mean that it is not obvious to the average Joe that enticing young men to homosexual acts they would otherwise not engage in under the promise of higher conscious fate, is objectionable and morally wrong.”

You cannot say about someone who is enticed into homosexual acts that they are acts “they would not otherwise engage in” because ultimately they did engage in them. Enticement is the litmus test to show one just what one wants from what one does not want.

The whole point is very few people have a “Firm Perswasion” as William Blake put it, about anything.

Also I doubt that Robert promised anyone “a higher conscious fate” if
they had sex with him. He may have said something like “the gods sanction this.”

The only way he would promise anyone a higher conscious fate is in connection with them making the correct conscious efforts to be present..

58. fofblogmoderator - November 22, 2008

34, 36, 39 & 50 are newly moderated

59. Daily Cardiac - November 22, 2008

ton – 46:

The only thing this post sheds light on is the degree of deviousness you are capable of.

60. ton - November 22, 2008

(I apologize for having to repeat things here but I think the shill needs a bit of “spoon feeding”).

Re: DC 57
Once again you’ve taken up the cause of speaking for and defending robot burton, thus further demonstrating that the shill’s role is accurately described as ‘a deployable agent.’ (I know what some of you may be thinking, it’s a typo and should read ‘deplorable’). You really would do yourself a favor if you were to google the article yourself and read it in depth but I don’t expect you have that much initiative or the necessary attention span so I’ll break it down for you Cadiac, here’s the skinny:

“Brainwashing may be defined as a set of transactions between a charismatically led collectivity and an isolated agent of the collectivity with the goal of transforming the agent into a deployable agent….

there exist three levels of affiliation in such collectivities: recruits, agents, and deployable agents. The result of this process, when successful, is to make the individual a deployable agent of the charismatic authority. This is not merely commitment but a form of commitment that does not depend on continuous surveillance by the group.

…brainwashing is a fundamental restructuring of self through a reorganization of preferences…. But the brainwashing process does not simply take people apart. It puts them back together in a new and functionally adequate way. If it did not, they would be useless as deployable agents.

The cognitive goal of the rebirth stage is to establish a sense of ownership (and pride of ownership) of the new convictions. The emotional goal of the rebirth stage is to deindividuate to a sufficient extent that one no longer recognizes the emotional validity of life aside from the charismatically led collectivity. Overall, at the completion of the rebirth stage, we may say that the person has become a fully deployable agent of the charismatic leader.”
Benjamin D. Zablocki

61. Panorea - November 22, 2008

Go to:

http://www.cultnews.com/

http://www.icsahome.com/

and read about your favourite cult. The FOF is considered by many a Cult. Do you own research. Why wait till a government will have to let you know?

62. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - November 22, 2008

#50: Wonderful metaphoric tale!

63. aline - November 22, 2008

#32 Daily Cardiac
The first thing to consider is the fact that I am proposing that the FoF
is what it claims to be, a school for awakening.

So who became conscious over the past 38 years?

64. aline - November 22, 2008

#22 Panorea,
Welcome,
it is a pleasure for me each time one friend is able to free himself
from the fof.

65. Mick Danger - November 22, 2008

You know what Meher Baba said?
Actually he didn’t say anything, he maintained silence.

“The object of the quest is called by many names:
happiness, peace, freedom, truth, love, perfection, Self-realization, God-realization, union with God. Essentially it is a search for all of these, because all of these and all other noble concepts, no matter what their name, turn out in the end to be one. Everyone has moments of happiness, glimpses of truth, fleeting experiences of affinity with God; what everyone longs for is to make them permanent.
Everone in the world, consciously or unconsciously, seeks happiness in one form or another. You seek it now in your own way. Even a murderer seeks happiness, which he hopes to find in the very act of murder, and that is why he commits it. Why or when does a man commit murder? Either through hatred or jealousy, and because he thinks he will find happiness if he commits murder and takes his revenge for hatred or jealousy. Why does a man drink? Because of the happiness he derives from the drink. But what happiness does he derive and how long does it last? Only as long as the effect of the intoxication lasts. No sooner does it cool down than he feels broken, dejected, and miserable. It is the same case with lust and lustful actions. One does it all for the happiness one derives even for a moment. But it is only for the moment that one derives happiness from one action or another, and when it is over, he is miserable again.
Real happiness is quite different.”

66. Panorea - November 22, 2008

Hi Aline,

thank you. I am actually “Thoughts From an Ex-Cult Member”…I am slowly returning back to my own name…

Good question.

67. Panorea - November 22, 2008

Ton,

thank you so much for 56 and 60. Very clear analysis. Me -brainwashed puppet would get upset when a prospective victim would use the work “cult” for the FOF.

Not my school…-Pure nonsense, what school, what mine?

68. unoanimo - November 22, 2008

deleted at the author’s request

69. dragon - November 22, 2008

35. elena – November 22, 2008
Ton,

“It’s good to see people here understanding the real issue. Everything you say about DC is accurate and yet it is relevant to point out that he is not making it up. You could insult him and torture him and you would not be able to force sense into a process that has taken years to take place. These people need help for a long time. They need individual and social therapy.

What amazes me about him is that I thought there were not many as masterfully divided as Girard, but hearing him I realize there are too many. You could not remain inside without being seriously divided into two distinct personalities. The whole of the Fellowship is a legion of hasnamuses in different degrees of this retrograde process.

Dragon, you said you worked in a mental institution. Have you ever seen something like this in other types of patients? “

Elena it is not possible to diagnose via Internet and may every student/tutor/director in the FOF experience a departure from the FOF via a bright door to an individual treatment if necessary.

In the FOF were throughout the years > 10,000 individuals. Some of them may be healthy and able to work in our societies (“healthy” in an inconspicuous way? They may suppress memories/feelings concerning the FOF indoctrination process).

Some of them may be “healthy” on the face of it, but they may know that there is a need for psychological assistance ( maybe it could be that Ton passes on assistance during those procedures or he may arrange a contact, or may name self-help groups in North America; But I don’t know how extremely time-consuming this could be for ton and ton you may excuse that I happened to mention those ideas.

Some of them may need a psychiatric examination and a treatment with drug prescription and psychological help.

Every individual in the FOF reacts in his own way.

This is the ABANDONED and the REAL BATTLEFIELD of the FOF, the leftovers for our societies and the victims of the FOF.

I experienced in the encounter (and the following meetings) with that FOF-Member, I have been acquainted since 2007 that the predominant feelings were:

FEAR, DISTRUST; LOSS OF REALITY SENSE; PERSECUTION MANIA (with the change of appearance) etc.

It was a strong and strange matter but Elena it is possible and this “total FOF eclipse” was not the strongest matter that I ever saw and experienced in my life.

You may say:

Forget it but we are world citizens and we are interconnected in our humanity not in the PERVERTED AND DIVIDED STATE of the separator Robert EARL Burton, who creates nor souls neither awareness via SEX, but misguided and cheated persons removed from their families with flattery or sweet talk, so sweet that your bodies talk every day and every night: Go back to your families, Go back to your wives and husbands and your children, Go back to life, it is no ordinary life, IT IS YOUR LIFE!

70. Ellen - November 22, 2008

Daily Cardiac,
Just in case you need a handy-dandy definition of a cult, try out this one on for size:
A closed group of people lacking internal behavioural checks and balances.
You can write this on the inside of your hand and carry it around with you, kinda like a cheet-sheet. It may help you to recognize what’s in front of your nose?

71. dragon - November 22, 2008

Dear Daily Cardiac so far there has been no reply to my questions
concerning:

noreply_postmaster9@999media.net

Server problems I presume…

PS Go back to your family, let it be… the door is open no key.. they are waiting for you!

72. Renald - November 22, 2008

re. Elena 51

“ Renald,

You are avoiding to answer the post I sent you and are presenting your own agenda leaving no room for dialogue, very much like in any Cult.

This is unfortunate even if you think that makes you happy.“

Yes I am choosing to not get involved with mud wrestling with you, Dc, or anyone else for that matter. I am not a fish who will bite on half truths for the sake of a prolonged harangue and a career in the blog cult. I merely wished to tell my story and I do not care who reads it or who skips the post. I tell what worked for me, what helped me to find my present path and what made me happy.
If you find that to be unfortunate, then big deal! I do not happen to believe in luck. I have repeated that enough times. I am willing to answer any direct question as to how it relates to me if I see it. That is why I suggested addressing it either as an open message (short) in the GF or as a personal message in the GF personal emails.

There are plenty of you`s here to attempt to push against the Fellowship of Friends. That is not my motive and you know it. I am not here to help the FOF or my friends who are still in either. I know it is a waste of my time. If they want my help they need to ask for it. Then I would bend over backwards to do whatever I can.

You got my point of view to do whatever you wish with it. You got my story. I am sorry if you expected more. This is all I have for you at this moment. Hug.

73. elena - November 22, 2008

Thanks Dragon for your contribution and also for the Europeana link. So many good things get included here that it is not easy to address them all.

Ton, thank you again. What a great piece of work to put all this confusion into organized ideas. Here are some comments.

-Interesting that “totalitarian” stages of one’s character, would also hold to this pattern revealing one’s intolerance. I certainly seem to fit the pattern in the desperate need to hold on to something that was not the Fellowship, throughout this past year.

-This “doubling” or shadow personality is what I would call the independent second personality developed by the cult. The hasnamus.

-In the Fellowship the stripping process is connected with stripping one’s emotional connections to family, friends and humanity.
The Identification process is also connected with the mass behavior of all members and the rebirth when the member has become an enabler.

In System language it would also compare to 1)dismantling of essence. 2) Enabling false personality and 3) successfully developing the completed hasnamus or shadow personality.

On psychotic disorientation. I remember this phase very well. It never stopped while inside. It corresponds to what we could call the “dismantling of essence” individually to make us a uniform conformed mass of members. “Being in essence” in the Fellowship means that one adopts the act of being at all times well and happy completely conformed with the status quo. On top of it, one must do it spontaneously because if it doesn’t look genuine, it means one is not present or conscious. So if one fails to adopt the behavior one is in need of more and more effort and more and more help from the Cult to reach it, creating the vicius circle that enforces the dependence and the “inner considering”.

-It corresponds to the cancer pattern in which the members simply continue to live a life for the Cult rather than for society or themselves but without any presence of their own. Just as uniform entities doing the job. Which is why they have to end up throwing wives, children and friends away.

If we think of the lady gardener at the galleria, we can observe very clear physical expressions of the fanatism. The “sissyness” of the men that Robert demanded, completely changed them even physically and the “masculinization” of the women is just as pronounced. But when members start looking depressed or run-down, Robert asks them to not attend events or take a leave of absence.

-The other side to this is that most members are convinced that they are taking the ride the sentence suggests until twenty five years later one realizes that one never got off the track. As long as one is inside, one is on the track even if just hanging off of it while the machinery runs over one.

-Any form of dependency on the Cult would adjust to these precommitment conditions but contrary to the idea that money would do it, people become much more dependent to “Status” than to what they get paid. In a way what is interesting about the Fellowship in relation to average companies is that payment is not the issue. Most enablers gave up good salaries to commit to the position of authority. Lust for power is what is behind positions of authority but behind power in a deep layer of the soul and once transformed, corresponds to the spiritual impulse to serve.

“However, a more complex (and probably more realistic) model of the internal constitution makes room also for ego defenses—stress induced reactions to anything that threatens convictions and will power. Ego defenses, like convictions, are virtually universal but functionally useless to individuals who are willing constantly to modify their convictions, rationally, in the light of new evidence.”

————– These paragraphs are the weakest parts of these work. The postulates are accurate but weak. It would probably help if the author took the whole ride into Jung and went with the understanding of archetypes. Behind the conviction is the archetype. The interplay between convictions and archetype creates dissonances, which promote change.

“At the emotional level, my hypothesis is that the charismatic relationship recapitulates the attachment-separation relationship between mother and infant. The initial impulse of the charismatic leader is to nurture and of the disciple to be nurtured. The discarded infantile hope for absolute nurturance and the parental hope for unconditional innocent love are revived.”

———–This segment would also much profit from Reichian understanding of the Authoritarian relationship.

Fellowship members in the past years, were definitely behaving more like addicts than converts but basically they were converts who moved to addicts. They or we, in different degrees.

-Old Fish’s analogy of the Fellowship and a hospital is no coincidence here. Thanks O.Fish, that was a very accurate picture.

– It seems clear that looked at in System language, this is describing the gradual movement from outer to inner circle enabler and the ideal enabler is not complete until he has developed a full hasnamus condition in which the new personality has totally taken over-powered the original personality. The I, or essence, or Spirit of the individual is not completely destroyed but rendered useless. Like cancer, the new personality keeps the functions against the detriment of the individuals SELF, which is why there is no SELF-REMEMBERING in the Fellowship of Friends but a repetition of the dogma, the sequence or anything that will keep the member from connecting to him or her own essence or spirit or ego or I, when the last two mean the most intimate self.

It is worth noting that the structure presented here is no different to patterns of behavior outside cults. Like Daily Cardiac insists, the patterns of behavior are similar throughout society but they become much more rigid under control milieus, which is what makes them interesting to observe.

In the long run the greater questions remain which are:

Why do we live like this? Where are we going by adjusting to these patterns? What is the search behind them? Why did humanity fall into the Fascist authoritarian behavior fifty years ago in a national scale and continues to fall in similar forms of authoritarian structures in Cults? Is this connected with the movement from “clan consciousness” to “individual consciousness?”

Cults certainly seem to be moving backwards into “Clan consciousness” but not the original blood clans in which family and brotherhood prevailed protecting each other even if being severely harsh with outsiders but a cold, dogmatic behavior in which the individual as much as the community is stripped of meaning, leaving room for the narcissistic predator, to develop at will.

74. elena - November 22, 2008

Thank you for being here Renald. It is your priviledge.

75. fofblogmoderator - November 22, 2008

61 is newly moderated

76. ton - November 22, 2008

Thankyou Panorea 61
“Do your own research.”

ya elena, the Benjamin D. Zablocki posting was cut and pasted from a 30 page article and was a bit of a haphazard effort of making a point…. some of the ‘weakness’ you mention may be partially a result of my editing process/selection. but I agree, the situation can be viewed through many other prisms. you mention Jung and Reich, you’ve also mentioned Konig… your recent posting on social/personal therapy…. (it’s a continuum, a ‘point/periphery’ thing). the mother-attachment/nurturance/addiction model presented in the article seems to be coming from a freudian perspective…. although there is the addiction/Jungian/ AA connection… you know, the whole addiction/ ‘search for meaning’ thing. it’s an interesting ‘exercise’ to view the FOF situation based on some of the prominent models of human development/behavior… but we each have our own little/unique perspective of the ‘situation’ don’t we?

I want to thank you all for your own unique perspective, but I want to thank you in no particular order, so you won’t be offended if you aren’t named first…

that’s a supposed to be a joke.
guess you would’ve had
to be here

77. veramente - November 22, 2008

Renald 72
“…… I am not a fish who will bite on half truths for the sake of a prolonged harangue and a career in the blog cult. ……..)
———–
Renald, you are discrediting the blog by calling it a cult.

78. unoanimo - November 23, 2008

DC ~

My apologies for the spin I took on your ‘cult examples’; I must say though, my friend, that the mind-purge you’re having on this blog is very humane, very and (imo) has nothing to do with an Us and Them fixation or Robert or the FOF, those are mirrors and can be easily broken in transit (Remember the story of Rembrandt’s giant broken mirror? Very humbling considering the context…)

Behind your postings is You and You, it’s the (and) that the FOF didn’t and (imo) cannot teach you to diminish so that your sense of self can merge and “escape” the dimension of opposites and justifying the recurrence of hypocrisy without evolution…

Something I learned around a campfire one night, as I looked and watched the moon arc across the sky with absolutely no sense of time or my effort to participate as either ‘Reluctance’ or ‘Self promotion’, was that everything I experience ‘out here’ is ‘in here’, everything…

Eager-mirrors come in all shapes and disguises, all you need to do, is, to be so beautiful that the mirror blushes and simply cannot reflect on anything to give you, because you’ve just shown the mirror itself for the first time in recorded history.

The night I decided to leave the FOF, I realized that it really wasn’t about leaving the FOF, it was about grabbing hold of the umbilical cords streaming within me and to really feel what it was that was being sent back, after all, do not children also feed their parents?

My ‘children’ were not feeding me, actually, they were being babysitted by a host of very malevolent ‘situations’, deep, deep hypocrisies which resonated ‘in tune’ with what I could get away with behind god’s back in private while ‘thinking’ that through efforts to rebuild my little card house daily, that I’d be forgiven and given more cards: not so, same 5 cards that I always had and the same results, different depths and levels of clarity, though, still it wasn’t enough to grow up…

What I found was that I had created a school within ‘The School’ and came to the conclusion that I didn’t need Robert and could get the kudos, friends, work, etc., from others, who, curiously enough also had this deep, deep indifference surrounding Robert and his lifestyle (which, imo, supported their justifications for struggling to struggle to struggle), almost to the degree of depraved neglect for the Teacher’s soul and humanity…

Could it be that Robert is surrounded by the same resonating environment that he was born into on this Earth, that it is something pathological and so, so personal and stuck, that it has grown into an Archetype, a mythical rubric’s cube with no colored stickers? Who plays the role of his mother, his father, the sisters, the teacher who kicked him out of the collective ‘bedroom’ because of his sexual ‘nature’? The roles are there and being played and played…

Perhaps that’s what cults are, they are sandboxes for deeply set traumas in its participants and for whatever reason (or function), the cult is a catharsis for change on the soul level, regardless of the success or failure of its precepts and concepts, the results stay encoded in the soul: Jonestown was a disaster, though on a soul level, something else…

3 top realizations that delivered me to call Helaine and say goodbye to the FOF cult ~

1) The FOF did not support solving the struggle, the hypocrisies within me, but rather, fed them to grow, refine themselves into higher forms of faith-striving and aspiration without exhalation-thinking: the FOF fed hypocrisies to thrive and emanate from its core center of values (The Teacher), their subconscious permission-mission (fertilizer).

With this, I also sensed to myself, that Robert stood for something IN ME and if I were ever going to get to the bottom of the barrel, I had to let go of certain ‘sub-conscious’ supporting-roles for a lifestyle that was absolutely not esoteric and holy, i.e., in a sense of consceince at the end of the day and breaking through the ceiling of this round place I’m in…

Yes, you can grow in the FOF, though only in the context to being in a greenhouse situated in the middle of Antarctica, fed by the heat and light of those others in the house with you… A very tricky place to be when cross pollination is controlled by a beekeeper who only visits to gather your affirmative colors, and not heart ache and holy-reconciliation of that cosmic tendency to pluck oneself into an oblivion of She loves me, she loves me not, she loves me, she…

2) One day, when I heard someone say, “I do not remember myself enough.” I suddenly realized (3 years before I left), that the person saying this was not the same person who, if they were remembering themselves, would say this; I approached many students about this conundrum, though saw no ‘school’ for a reconciliation of this imobius-band or the celebration and application thereof of its unraveling or ‘clipping’ (i.e., a school of senior priests and priestesses…

Instead, the ‘school’, by the nature of its pyramid shape, is perpetually kept at freshman level (no pun intended))… You can see this, that even the said ‘Old school, inner circle’ are seemingly striving to ‘keep it young’… For me, the FOF was a chameleon for all the wrong reasons… And those who were wise and mystically charming, had to keep a low profile for fear of The Teacher:

what sort of ‘school of love’ teaches leaving Love so to have more time to teach it?

3) Being one who has been behind the locked bedroom door of your teacher, I later arrived at the decision that I could not support (consciously), a reflection of myself that did not respect my wife to be (and her deep wishes and fears, that I intuited well, to have stated from her cosmic-common-sense, to ‘Say no’…), I could not support a reflection that did not support my consceince (my feelings of inner good and the terrible, nor a person-image who disregarded the light in my eyes for the one in their pants), I could not support a reflection that only thought of itself and justified against everything contradicting its needs not being met, by referring back to its imaginary picture of what is was to become tomorrow, promises, gifts, status in another lifetime, retribution of the gods, etc., etc., so to make the sense of ‘sin’ feel like a biblical sacrifice…

No, it’s just wrong; we are souls growing up and the repetitions of faith, belief and hope serve as our bottles and that’s just it, they are not our mother, nor for her to call ‘Me’… Tools are tools and if your house looks like a giant wooden nail after you’re finished building it, you can be sure it’s still a nail and not a house…

Diapers abound! Please get used to it… I used to sprinkle cologne on mine… I do not do that anymore; when there’s perfume down there you can’t tell whether you’re talking shit or ordering roses…

Further and further away from the heart… Till, there, the vacuum of Space, Death, Life, Love, You, no breath, no air, glowing golden, heart beating, blood of god, blood of the universe, decisions, loving, knowing, doing… Putting the mirror down on the nightstand, taking David’s slingshot and putting out the moon, the sun and the statue of David…

Picking up the pieces and making something like Dayeve, a little bit of sun, a little bit of moon… Knowing that the struggle to be born is not about me, it’s about how we treat others, our private time, our contradictions, our body, our parents, our quality of presence, and so on, via, what filters it flows through determines the magic we do, consciously and subconsciously…

The FOF offered/offers many private lessons in unconscious filters and patches for those you’ve inherited upon entrance and prior…

Very dangerous seamstresses and tailors considering the king is naked.

L.t.y.DC

79. ton - November 23, 2008

uno, 78
wow! that was amazing, through and through.

not to diminish the amazement, it lingers…
still.

thank you.

I hate to quote you out of context but I’ll take the ‘liberty’ here: this reminds me of an adage regarding the myopia and limitations of cult-think…

“Tools are tools and if your house looks like a giant wooden nail after you’re finished building it, you can be sure it’s still a nail and not a house…”

old adage – origin unknown:
“When You Have A Hammer, Everything Looks Like A Nail”

80. elena - November 23, 2008

Hi Ton,

Thank you for the post and the joke. I would have had to be there! I think I’ll use it as an opportunity to apologize for having had to prove that I exist for the past almost two years. That I exist, think and feel in my own perspective which is not that of the Fellowship’s. If I have been brusque, forgive me, it was not against any of you personally, it was more of a way to affirm what I had lost sight of and the struggle against my own loose ends that I needed to recover.

Being here is amazingly healing even when it hurts but it is good that it does not hurt because that was the Fellowship’s method. Not by active rejection but by active indifference. After seventeen years of indifference it is easy to feel tremendously insecure if you don’t mention me, even last. But as I get stronger and recover a life, it is easier to not need permanent affirmation.

What looks like the crazy writing of vanity is not only that but the desperate writing of an Ego that is trying to find itself.

I began teaching basic English conversation to six of the children in the neighbourhood this morning. They each pay a dollar a week and we’ll try to work at least fifteen minutes everyday and an hour on Saturdays. Only conversation for about six months. We had a beautiful lesson because I realized, who knows when, that the least important thing is that they learn English, although we only speak it throughout the period. What matters is how we relate to each other. We sat very close to each other and held each other’s hand one by one and said “good morning” “Hi” and “hello” for half an hour while looking at each other. They are young and much enjoyed the “theater” in which I tried us to emulate an Oriental Tea session!

It’s not been like that here but if we have the opportunity to share a little longer, it’ll be a pleasure to try to make it so.

The mind might think very precisely but without love, it is not worth listening to it.

Unoanimo, what a delicious prose! And content. Thanks.

DC. Wanted to apologize also for not directing my last post to you and talking about you in third person. So sorry. It most definitely aimed to reach you. Thank you for your generous contributions to the blog.

81. elena - November 23, 2008

Oriental Tea session but with laughter and we would all clap for the fun of it when someone got it really right!

82. ton - November 23, 2008

Elena 81; laughter is so necessary to health……

Elena,
U got the joke… and thanks for being there/here to get it.

Please, apologies directed toward me are absolutely unnecessary.

Your teaching work sounds beautiful….wonderful!
i think of my teaching work as therapy; social/personal/social/personal/ (etc/ etc/ etc…) therapy. (imo) at least half of the lesson in teaching is relational. teaching (and learning) ‘how to relate’ (as you indicate) is THE lesson of humanity (imo)… academics and ‘left brain’ education is secondary. I think of the teaching of academics as a format and venue for the primary lesson in life — which is, learning how to relate to each other.
thank you for that.
what is the age of your students?

After his beating by the LA police, Rodney King said:
‘can’t we all get along…?’
I thought at the time that he should have at least won an award for ‘man of the year’ — if not, the ‘nobel peace prize.’

83. elena - November 23, 2008

Ah Ton! This is like the end of a good bad story!

They go from six to fifteen but the six year old is more suffered than the rest so she snicked in and stayed.

It’s late! Gotta get some rest!

Big hug!

84. Daily Cardiac - November 23, 2008

Aline – 62:

“So who became conscious over the past 38 years?”

Consciousness is its own reward (“O soul, we have positively appeared, that is enough.”) ; it is by nature inconspicuous but I believe it can manifest in both a high visibility role or one that is completely invisible.

Without doubt there were conscious beings in the past who lived anonymous, unremarkable lives to those around them.

Regarding students in the FoF, it’s not for me to say over the blog who I might think is or will become conscious. Everyone has heard Girard’s name mentioned. He is someone who’s being I have come to admire and respect over the years. Some tend to think of Girard (well or ill) in connection with his intellectual center. For me it’s not about his intellectual center. I see his consciousness in many small details.

I will also say that I’ve seen many FoF students change for the better over the years, and become more open, loving, alive.

85. ton - November 23, 2008

DC i’m onto you like stink on shit…

“Regarding students in the FoF, it’s not for me to say over the blog who I might think is or will become conscious”

but you will ‘say’ it anyway, and with your very next breath…

“Everyone has heard Girard’s name mentioned.”

and you had to go and mention it again…. personally I’m really sick of hearing that name mentioned.

“He is someone who’s being I have come to admire and respect over the years…. For me it’s not about his intellectual center. I see his consciousness in many small details.”

now that statement raises a few questions: are you of the male gender? and if so, are you gay? ’cause this sounds a little gay, that is if you are a guy… in any case, whether you’re male or female, or undecided, you seem to be paying a lot of attention to girard… perhaps at the expense and to the detriment of your own self. what about the ‘many small details’ of your self and your very own ‘consciousness????

“I will also say that I’ve seen many FoF students change for the better over the years, and become more open, loving, alive.”

and it just ‘warms the cockles of my heart’ to think how they might thrive and blossom were they to leave the confines of the FOF.

86. nigel harris price - November 23, 2008

84 Daily Cardiac/85 ton

If GH is conscious, what does he DO. I believe he is just an REB ‘reactoid’…..Nigel.

87. Daily Cardiac - November 23, 2008

Ellen – 70:

“Daily Cardiac,
Just in case you need a handy-dandy definition of a cult, try out this one on for size:
A closed group of people lacking internal behavioural checks and balances.”

When I read your post the first group that came to mind was the U S Senate.

88. Yesri Baba - November 23, 2008

“A friend told me yesterday that a member who had just found out about the boys peeing on Robert explained it away as “work on humility”!!!”

————————

HaHaHa!!…a golden alchemy shower. But seriously, did someone really say this? So, if someone took a dump on him what is that- food for higher centers?

89. David Darby - November 23, 2008

86
Nigel, we used to call them “Robertons”.

90. Yesri Baba - November 23, 2008

From the Department of Redundancy Department:

“DC i’m onto you like stink on shit…”

91. Panorea - November 23, 2008

Do your own research she said…

Do a search on “The Belgian Parliamentary Commission on Cults’ to the Belgian Parliament.” You will come across a document of 306 pages (written in French and Dutch – but you can translate everything nowadays, just put the file on google translation…). Fellowship of Friends Renaissance is listed as number 71. The Belgian Parliament rejected most of the Commission’s report, but does it not ring any bells to you when you see the Fantastic FOF listed next to the “Satanists”, “Soka Gakkai”, even the “Quakers”…

Who defines what is a Cult? Who defines Consiousness? How many years do you need to walk around on this earth and expect others, authorities on “Presence” to tell whether you are doing fine dear…

Everybody is a Star…LA LA LA LA LALA……………………………….

92. Yesri Baba - November 23, 2008

I’m sorry, I just can’t let it go. DC, in the interest of full disclosure do you think you guys could add to the prospective student meetings that the ‘Teacher’ likes to suck dick, take it in the ass and have ‘students’ piss on him?

I realise this doesn’t have anything to do with consciousness, nothing does, but I think it would narrow the spectrum of those who might be interested in joining. You might toss it in there between the body types presentation and the card tricks. It might be a good hook for certain fetishists. Fisting- you could add that too, I don’t know if it is true, but hey, when did that ever stop you guys?

And while I’m riding you- you really need to get off that ‘conscious being’ bullshit, and the moral relativism of your assinine metaphors is repugnant. I realise you are stuck at a fundamentalist frame of cognitive development , but really, you are stinking up the blog.

93. Panorea - November 23, 2008

Yesri,

no one is joining.

Members count fingers in old paintings and if you cannot really see the four fingers, you imagine there are there because one is not supposed to be looking at the finger but at where the finger points to. This is really esoteric. If you cannot see you are missing the point of this esoteric and ancient teaching and C influence will ditch if you think like this.

It requires some nerve after being in a meeting like this to try to explain why someone in Search of the Miraculous should/could/would/could you please??? join the FOF…

94. nigel harris price - November 23, 2008

O.K. So why doesn’t REB enter into a dedicated ‘civil partnership’ with a male member? Becasue he is an emotional cripple and not ’emotionally centred’…..Nigel.

95. elena - November 23, 2008

Daily Cardiac, Girard, Judith, Richard, William, Lorraine and all of you who think your precious life is in the hands of Conscious beings, allow your selves not only to “look” but to “see”.

This is one of the major weaknesses of the Sequence. It tells you to “look” but not to “see”.

“Life Psychology and the Work” from Creating a Soul by G. Haven.

“No matter how valuable life psychology may be for an individual, its use has the effect of isolating him from other students.”

______and such thinking, the effect of isolating you from humanity.

“The reason some things cannot be explained by the System is that they do not need to be explained, that they are not necessary to our work.”
_______with which you turn a blind eye to what you cannot explain.

“One of the weaknesses of virtually all life psychology is that it takes man and his inner life to be real. As a consequence, it often focuses on long past events, childhood trauma, unfulfilled needs, etc. But think about it. Suppose you really understood that everything you observe is the functioning of a machine – absolutely, unequivocally, at all levels and in all functions. Would you be interested in the childhood traumas of this machine? Suppose you really understood that its desires, its feelings, its needs were no more real than the images on a movie screen. Would you still be concerned to satisfy them, to root them out, or even to understand them? After all, you don’t need to know the details of an automobile’s design history in order to drive it; you just need to be sufficiently familiar with the end result – the way it works- to operate it safely. Why should our relation to our own machines be any different?”

——-Machines cannot evolve and the System is about evolving. “Man is a machine” is a comparison that is being taken literally to separate it from “the higher”. This is how Girard himself shunned his life and divided into two personalities. One in which he put away the suffering that he could not transform and another in which he put on the mask of “next conscious being” and developed the “imaginary picture” that “awakening” could be accomplished by sending the car to the mechanic when it broke so that he himself never had to deal with it. The mechanic was never there so the body simply “froze” what he himself was unwilling to deal with… “for another lifetime buddy!”

This is the standard set for each and every student of the Fellowship because if this is argued, Girard himself will take care of asking the member to do what he really wants to do, which is to continue being “sleep” in “life” and OUT of the Fellowship. This is very difficult for long standing members who, what they really want is to work with others interested in “evolution”.

You cannot balance the centres if you don’t work with them. You cannot be present to life if you demeanour its worth. You cannot remember yourself if you don’t have a self to remember. You cannot evolve if you can’t love yourself. Love-evol. It’s not love backwards, it’s that you cannot evolve without love.

The Fellowship indoctrinates you to hate influence A, life, your lower self and is not willing to acknowledge your story making it look as if, every time you wish to share your most intimate suffering, it is your lower self who wants to speak. It shunned every one of us with the idea that only Robert, Girard and now Asaf and Dorian have the “being” to speak, to be and to share. These and other inner circle members are allowed only because they have learnt how to shun you as well as Robert and Girard. If everyone is a machine, Girard, how come only you and Robert get to share, express yourselves and be? How come dialogue is put down as opposite ‘I’s. How is dialogue, not love? And how is the lack of dialogue not a Cult?

How come you are the only one allowed to participate on the blog Daily Cardiac? Daily Cardiac who is clearly an official representative of the Fellowship is openly participating on the blog knowing that most of the members have already been indoctrinated to not read it because it’ll open their eyes. If the Fellowship were not afraid of the blog, it would not have asked the members to not read it. This alone shows that the Fellowship is a Cult and it will take you many years to recover from its effects in your life.

96. elena - November 23, 2008

Correction of “snicked” for “sneaked” in post 83.

97. elena - November 23, 2008

Daily Cardiac: “I will also say that I’ve seen many FoF students change for the better over the years, and become more open, loving, alive.”
If there is anything the Fellowship is not, is more open, loving and alive. I challenge you to expand on how it IS that. Stand up to your words with facts you sick fool. Get the hell out of Imagination dear, it is corroding your very spirit.

“Those who manage to keep presence as the top priority have stayed, while those who have placed something above being present (I think of Old Fish’s list of joyful things) have departed.”
Daily Cardiac, how considerate of you. What happens in your inner life when you undermine someone’s presentation of joy by ridiculing his emotion?

DC: “Because the lower self is all about preferences, denials, love (lust/obsession/identification), hate, opinions; etc.”
LOVE, dear, makes the world go round, and there’s NONE of it in the Fellowship: just blind, fanatic commitment like all your posts demonstrate and all the member’s silent participation testifies for.

98. dragon - November 23, 2008

93. Panorea – November 23, 2008

“It requires some nerve after being in a meeting like this to try to explain why someone in Search of the Miraculous should/could/would/could you please??? join the FOF…”

Hello PanOrea,

I like your fresh blood here on the Blog (take care).

All the sweet instructors of Robert/Girard etc. will accept from now on only very special personalities to JOIN the FOF.

They (the prospective servers) must have a wish “like crazy” to join. If they have this knitting pattern it is half the battle.
Afterwards you whisper that rumour to them:

We (the instructors/the FOF) are the one and only institution/esoteric university on this planet ( joke: we are also on the Sirius) that possesses the ESOTERIC DECODING to evolve your souls.

We teach YOU all YOU need to let your “embryo-soul” come into being. It is your responsibility.

We are only the observers and we know you need a very special and long evolution process.You can’t evolve youself at home or with books or by searching a “gurrru”/teacher/Kendo trainer. NO! You need the CODE of the FOF.

But everything that seems to be a severe impact is only your process of receiving a “clean room” for the esoteric wedding day, when your embryo appears.

And one dooms day you will know the whole esoteric wisdom of the world:

SOPHIA PERENNIS only for You and only throught the mediation committee of the FOF, because, believe me sweet innocent adept (oh innocence and ignorance is so pure, so white, so snowy, so ahhhhhhhhhhhh).

PanOrea be sure they will catch another 10,000 if you stop informing.

99. Jomo Piñata - November 23, 2008

Aline – 62:
“So who became conscious over the past 38 years?”

Lacuna Piñata:
Consciousness is its own reward (”O soul, we have positively appeared, that is enough.”) ; it is by nature inconspicuous but I believe it can manifest in both a high visibility role or one that is completely invisible.

Without doubt there were conscious beings in the past who lived anonymous, unremarkable lives to those around them.

Jomo Piñata:
Lacuna is saying there are some in the Fellowship, it’s just nobody knows about them.

Lacuna Piñata:
Regarding students in the FoF, it’s not for me to say over the blog who I might think is or will become conscious. Everyone has heard Girard’s name mentioned. He is someone who’s being I have come to admire and respect over the years.

Jomo Piñata:
What a track record of connubial success. Just awesome. And those who know him well say such kind things about him. 😉

Lacuna Piñata:
Some tend to think of Girard (well or ill) in connection with his intellectual center. For me it’s not about his intellectual center. I see his consciousness in many small details.

Jomo Piñata:
For me its that doglike devotion he wrote about in his book that makes him the Rudolf Hess of the Fellowship.

Lacuna Piñata:
I will also say that I’ve seen many FoF students change for the better over the years, and become more open, loving, alive.

Jomo Piñata:
And, naturally, you attribute that to the Fellowship. Of course, as you say, there is no such thing as a cult! ;-D

100. Panorea - November 23, 2008

From Mary Oliver

Wild Geese

You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting –
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

101. aline - November 23, 2008

Aline – 62:
“So who became conscious over the past 38 years?”

#84 Daily Cardiac
“Without doubt there were conscious beings in the past who lived anonymous, unremarkable lives to those around them.”

I remember RB saying that a conscious being will always have an impact by serving humanity.
So this should visible?

102. Another Name - November 23, 2008

Didn’t your mum tell you that “assumption” is the mother of all fuckups.”

Thank you all for your post…I am not able to read them all….some how i can not keep up, not enough hurs in a day.

Still I really appreciate and have a few questions

Daily card where you ever invited to attend Robert’s 2 on 1 cellar meeting?

Renald maybe get the book from Martha Beck ” Finding your North star…For me she added the missing links egarding the law of attraction and she practically explains how to be your own ” ABRAHAM”…No need to look up to somebody else or be dependent.
If you wish?

For all who like to tell us what we should do….?

Sit with your suffering friends and be still and do not assume or tell them what to do…..when one is going/ allowing the pain of what was lost what do we really need? No assumtions, no judgement, no words, no diagnosis., no advise……..time to heal, acceptance, a listening ear from the heart (thanks Uno).

Old fish….beautiful…..I love to change your name into Young fish in the crystal clear river…..

Grow ears from the heart……

Panorea…thanks for being here and all others who I have not mentioned….

Thanks Elena…do I see a new Elena, coming out of something?

O Ton, the article of Singer …still digesting. I am still looking for what I am?????? This article seems to be a helpful reference for were I am at this point with leaving the fellowship of friends.

Thanks all.

103. Jomo Piñata - November 23, 2008

Reprinted from 34 and 36, above, with links removed. If you want to read the link, go back to 34 or 36 and click on it.

Lacuna Piñata:
Ex members are saying something quite different. They are proposing that the FoF is the exact and utter opposite of what it claims to be.

NOW it’s clear you have heard the message. I’m not speaking for others, but that is certainly what I am saying. You DO have ears!

And as long as that is your claim; the more you say in that regard the more difficult it is to explain many indisputable facts that strongly suggest otherwise.

I’m not sure why you think it is more difficult to explain the facts you adduce. Let’s have a look, shall we?

The FoF has been in existence for nearly 40 years. The overall makeup of the membership, past and present, indicates a higher than average degree of intelligence, education, alchemy, reliability.

The Fellowship is Lake Wobegone. The women are prettier, the men are more handsome, and smarter, and all the children are above average. Oops, I forgot. There are no children.

What you seem to be saying, and please correct me if you think I got it wrong, is that the Fellowship is full of smart, educated people who can be relied on and care about keeping their environment looking good. Let’s assume that’s true. Cults recruit bright and idealistic people. Indeed, bright and idealistic people are the best attractors and, paradoxically, the most manipulable. The more someone has unliveable ideals, the more he can be manipulated.

The norm for people’ s stay, in many cases, is lenghty; 15, 20, even 30 years.

You are saying that these people stay a long time, and that somehow this proves the inherent worth of the organization. I respond that it does not. Length of stay may equally be a measure of misplaced loyalty, or even induced fear.

All of these individuals presumably were looking for a school of awakening. To say all these intelligent, well intentioned people found and were duped by the exact opposite; an organization that by ex members own account induced “sleep”, and to top it off, one run by a sociopath devoid of a conscience is unsupportable to any reasoning mind.

You are saying that the proposition seems preposterous to you, too preposterous to consider. I respect that this is how you genuinely feel about it. See, we are actually talking to each other. You think I am making a ridiculous proposition and you see your own position as, basically, common sense. That you believe the proposition you state above preposterous does not, however, make it “unsupportable to any reasoning mind.” As Bertrand Russell famously observed, common sense is what tells you the world is flat.

The implications are so fantastic it’s mind boggeling to even conjure up analogies, but here’s an attempt,

Again, I am pleased that you recognize that the proposition is “mind boggling.” It is mind boggling! That you recognize it as “mind boggling” indicates you have taken it in and grappled with it, at least for a moment. Good, good!

Suppose someone who is interested in maintaining a normal weight and values their health heard about a new restaurant specializing in healthy, low calorie food. So they decided to give it a try. What they found was food prepared, in the exact opposite way of what they knew to be healthy. Starchy food served in rich, creamy causes. Do you think they would continue to go back? Do you think that restaurant would survive trying to lure a health conscious (no pun) clientel while serving the opposite of what healthy food contains? Even if they did a good job of masking what they served after two or three times eating there the customers’ stomachs and their own scales would tell them all they needed to know.

OK, I hear your analogy. Let me tell you why I think it is inapt. A scale will readily tell restaurant patrons whether they are gaining weight. Weight gain or loss is measurable by instruments everyone agrees on called scales. Buy an accurate scale and you can readily measure weight gain or loss. Unlike the Fellowship, fantasy and self-deception play no part in assessing the progress of weight gain or loss.

How about a mechanic shop that would, not only not fix your car, but actually break other well operating parts that were fine before you had it fixed there? How about a watch shop that returned your 5 minutes slow watch now running 10 minutes fast? Would you give them repeat business?

Again, your analogies are inapt, for the same reason the restaurant analogy is inapt. Fantasy and self-deception play no part in assessing the functioning of your car or your repaired watch.

How about bad movies; do you not only not walk out, but stay to see them a second or third time just to make sure they’re bad, or because you’re good friends with the ticket taker? How about a dry cleaners that put stains in your clothes routinely?

Another reason these analogies are inapt is that they are really too simple. All of them presume that if something is wrong, you would know it right away, it would be obvious. Perhaps a better analogy would not be an analogy at all, but a category to which the operative Fellowship of Friends belongs: Confidence scheme.

The Fellowship is a confidence scheme. If you have never read about confidence schemes, you should read about them. There are many articles that have been written about confidence men (“con men”) and confidence schemes. The objective of a confidence scheme is the transfer of things of value from the target of the scheme to the operator of the scheme. These things of value could be financial, but they could also consist of labor or adulation. Confidence schemes depend upon the target’s CONFIDENCE IN THE OPERATOR which develops using specific and identifiable techniques. I invite you to read a little bit:

[link omitted to “Confidence trick” at wikipedia : if you are interested, go back to 34 and click on the link]

Keep in mind these examples are all rather mundane in comparison to one’s spiritual development. If an individual would be careful in the above areas they would take even more care to get it right spiritually; if indeed that was what they were looking for initially.

See, the assumption is that one can avoid deception and manipulation by spiritual confidence men by being earnest, careful, and of clean heart. I certainly believed this. I daresay others will chime in that they too believed this. But it is not true.

So to stay so long in an organization that hurt or damaged the spirit would be highly unlikely. Staying for friends sake? I would not stay in such an organization long enough to even make friends!

This assumes that you would know when your spirit was hurt and damaged. But the confounding effect of ideology is that your spirit may be hurt and damaged again and again, but you have been indoctrinated to attach a particular label to it that recasts it as something which occurred for your spiritual benefit and so you endure it.

As far as sociopaths go, their shelf life is pretty short. They all end up imploding rather quickly.

Sorry joe, it just ain’t so. You should read Robert Hare’s classic work, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us. I believe it’s in print and you can buy it on Amazon.

40 years is unprecedented, except in a police state where the sociopath is the police chief. Even Saddam fell short of Robert’s tenure. So, this sleep inducing organization with a narcissist in charge after 40 years still charges 30% to 40 % of member’s income so they can attend meetings and dinners (for extra charges), all to get the opposite of what they intended to get when they joined. All to get not enlightenment, but sleep through brainwashing.

You *do* understand the literal argument being made. You just reject it as preposterous. I understand why. But rather than just reject it out of hand, consider it. I am not alone in making this argument. If I was among the Lake Wobegone elect as a member, surely I am not making the argument out of stupidity. And I say to you, believe what you want, I am not making it out of sour grapes either.

In fact, the second part of this post is intended to say that as I see it, cults, in the sense they are articulated here and by people like Rick Ross, do not even exist. It is a completely trumped up and arbitrary designation.

I understand that you believe this. I myself am not a big fan of the word cult. I prefer the unwieldy “high intensity, high control, closed group which engages in deceptive and manipulative conduct.”

The present usage of the word in my estimation is a “catchall” term that becomes a haven for 21st century bigotry. Man has bigotry deeply embedded in his heart, so when one form is exposed for what it is man will look for other forms to transfer his hatred into. Racial and gender bigotry have been sufficiently exposed for what they are and new havens must exist to house man’s insatiable hunger for judging others inferior. Cult-watching is one such avenue.

You seem to be suggesting that the use of the term “cult” is a pejorative that is the outcome of bigotry. Maybe there are some people who use the term that way. That is not how I use the term.

You, more than anyone on the blog, have offered proof of what I’m talking about.

I’m not getting what you are saying. Are you talking about the comparisons I have made between processes occurring in the Fellowship and processes that occurred in Nazi Germany? Are you talking about the comparisons I made between Girard’s statements and Rudolf Hess’s statements? Are you somehow suggesting that I express bigotry here?

Man is cultish by nature and from his inception as a race. Man started life as a member of a tribe and the race propagated into other tribes. Tribes fit every definition of a cult.

The statement that “tribes fit every definition of a cult” is not true. “High intensity, high control, closed groups that engage in deceptive and manipulative practices” are invariably authoritarian, either overtly or covertly. One of the things that made the Fellowship so attractive at the beginning was that it didn’t seem to be about a particular individual. There were no pictures of a guru, no candlelit meditation sessions trying to connect with his eternal love, etc., etc. It was so apparently not about him that when I asked his name, I was told it was an “ordinary name.” The paradox is that the Fellowship has ultimately proved to be about nothing but him!

Every now and then someone warns us that a particular group of conforming individuals represents a cult by posting lists of telltale signs. If those signs or conditions are applied per say almost any organization can be classified as a cult. We could start with the U S military. Or the Boy Scouts of America, the Shriners, Daughters of the Revolution, Veterans of Foreign Wars, Enron, The Dallas Cowboys – talk about controlling – football teams will tell their members what to eat, when to eat it, who to associate with, how to dress, when they can talk to the press, when to go to bed, etc. Then after their playing career most players end up cripple – talk about victimized.

There is a good article by the late Margaret Singer which I encourage you to look at, differentiating the United States Marine Corps from a cult. I have put some spaces in the URL so it won’t trigger moderation:

tinyurl . com / usmc-is-not-a-cult

With your talk of “ordinary morality,” You should pay special attention to #10.

The entire cult designation is bogus without taking into account the fact that anyone or anything can fit the mold if taken at face value. There are certainly individuals who form, or become leaders, of organizations who in turn manipulate / charm / indoctrinate other individuals but they are found in every walk of life, not only religious or spiritual arenas. Brainwashing equally does not exist as the term is applied.

I understand this opinion, but as I read you, you have never really examined the concept of brainwashing. You have put up a straw man and are knocking him down. I say to you, you have a better mind than that, you are capable of more.

Educate yourself about THOUGHT REFORM. There are specific and identifiable techniques that, when applied to YOU, affect how you take in information, how you think, how you see the world, without your knowledge or consent. Science has known about these techniques for nearly fifty years. The Chinese Communists used them on American prisoners of war during the Korean War. EDUCATE yourself. Don’t be content with Hollywood stereotypes of real things, like thought reform. It refers to a real phenomenon: one which you, whether you know it or not, have been subjected to.

The second state is a breeding ground for brainwashing, its just a matter of who one allows to wash one’s brain. And the only way to deprogram yourself from the second state, ironically, is to rise to the level of the third state, the domain of schools.

Brother, that’s a far too ideological statement for me to let you get away with it. You are referring me to your Gurdjieff Ouspensky map of the universe. It’s a defective map. It doesn’t lead anywhere at all. Not to undermine your confidence in it. When you give it up, it will be because you understand in your bones that it’s a bad map.

A Manson, a Jim Jones, a Billy Graham, an Ophra Winfrey, a Hitler, an Obama. It is the same indoctrination process. The same buying into.

This is not reasoned argument. It’s just an assertion, and a very superficial, broad-brush assertion at that. The fact is, you assume it to be true. The truth is, you haven’t really thought about it very much. You certainly haven’t read up on the subject.

Men are joiners, conformists. When a person is “deprogrammed” by cult busters nothing is reversed because was altered. It only means the person is immune to the doctrine of the particular organization they exited. But they are wholly susceptible to the next application of “brainwashing.”

Again, Lacuna Piñata, you are talking about things that you don’t know anything about as though you know something about them. Doesn’t that have a name in the Ouspensky lingo? You would be better served by learning about things before having opinions about those things.

This blog is as much a cult as what ex members claim the FoF is.Replete with its leaders, followers, alphas, company line, lingo, unwritten laws.

This blog is pretty much a free-for-all. Nothing cult-like about it, so far as I can see.

The strongest proof that cults do not exist is the Nazi movement.(a post you introduced) This is an example of an entire world super power becoming a cult. 100,000 people. This should be proof for all that cultism is a deeply ingrained human trait, not an odd occurrence by a certain kind of easily indrotrinatable individual.

Hoo, hoo, this one’s a doozy. Pretty contorted notion that because a whole country fell victim to a psychopath, cults don’t exist. What about “writ big, writ small”?

The main point I want to get across to you is, almost *anyone* can fall prey to a confidence game. Almost anyone. Maybe even *anyone.*

All those Germans did not lose their cultish nature when the Third Reich came down; they just imperceptibly transferred it into some other less audacious area.
Then again, many begin and end life as a cult of one.

Lacuna, my man, you runnin’ out of steam, you beginnin’ to babble, you using words you don’t even know the meaning of. But you’ve told us your position. Bravo.

Now show us some courage, man, and continue the conversation. Stand and defend your position or, even better, consider arguments you’ve never considered before and don’t be afraid to reconsider your position. Don’t be a coward and run away or pretend I didn’t post this. I’ve now posted it twice.

104. dragon - November 23, 2008

Hello Daily Cardiac,

“All those Germans did not lose their cultish nature when the Third Reich came down; they just imperceptibly transferred it into some other less audacious area.
Then again, many begin and end life as a cult of one.”

My roots are also French and observing your “brown affinity”, I am interested in your descent.

Daily Cardiac why do you apply your statements so often to Nazi Germany?

Do the atrocities, the genocide, the immeasurable suffering have the effect of a morbid charm to you?

Do you really believe the Germans are secretly interconnected like a “Nazi Sleeper Group” waiting for the Third World War.

There is a legend in Germany concerning the old Emperor Friedrich I. “Barbarossa” (Rex Romanorum). He is still sleeping in the Kyffhäuser until the “Reich” needs his “support”.

I guess, he will be “asleep” until eternity.

More history needed? It is only for you Daily Cardiac:

Asymmetrical Historical Comparison: the Case of the German Sonderweg
Author: Kocka, Jürgen1
Source: History and Theory, Volume 38, Number 1, February 1999 , pp. 40-50(11)
Publisher: Blackwell Publishing

Frequently, historical comparisons are asymmetrical in the sense that they investigate one case carefully while limiting themselves to a mere sketch of the other case(s) which serve(s) as comparative reference point(s). The debate on the German Sonderweg (special path) and the rich historical literature originating from this debate can serve as examples. This article reconstructs the pros and cons within this controversial debate, reports its results and puts it into a broader historical context. It analyzes the comparative logic implied by the Sonderweg thesis and argues that the interpretation of modern German history in the sense of a Sonderweg can only be maintained if related to the question why Germany turned fascist and totalitarian in the interwar period while other (comparable) societies did not, and if Western countries are selected as units of comparison. The choice of comparative reference points turns out to be decisive and partly dependent on normative priorities and conventions. The article points to dangers and opportunities inherent in asymmetrical comparison.

105. fofblogmoderator - November 23, 2008

102 is newly moderated

106. James Mclemore - November 24, 2008

Jomo Pinata – You are good. That was stunning.

Daily Cardiac :
It’s odd in that I had actually quit reading your posts, but I always read Jomo Pinata, so I got to read your stuff too.
At this point I think you would need to reply to Jomo Pinata’s post. The blog, I saw somewhere, is getting a pretty large amount of hits. I think there may be more people watching than you might suspect. Jomo Pinata just blew holes you could drive a truck through in most of your statements.
**
While we are waiting I will share something that for me indicates at least a part of why the FOF does “the exact and utter opposite” of what it claims to do.

The most useful thing Burton ever told me, and perhaps one of the best and truest things he may have ever said, (even though I am pretty sure he did not mean it or know how true it was), came from the only question I ever asked in a large meeting. It was in the mid-seventies and the meetings were led by Burton and held at the Foothill Church above Oakland. It was a question about an area that I had been struggling with ever since moving to the ‘ranch’. I asked,
“How does one develop a right relationship to the ‘teacher’?”
His anwer was,
“One needs to first develop a right relationship to oneself.”

It sounded so good, and I knew it was true, and it certainly made Burton look good just by saying such a grand thing. I did not recognize it at the time, but the problem was (and I am sure still is), that there was nothing in the structure or content of the fellowship of friends, and nothing coming from Burton himself that facilitated actually doing that. Nothing at all. Just the opposite was true. Everything took one further away from that right relationship that we need toward ourselves. The fellowship of friends actually reinforces and strengthens the separation that needs to be healed. The real issues that needed to be addressed got driven even further underground. The only thing I can see that promoted growth in people were the friendships that were made and that one learned from and were fed by, and of course the simple strength of the human spirit that can somehow manage to survive and even grow a bit even in the most difficult of situations. Friendships of course, would have been there in the usual course of life anyway, and would have obviously been better and freer without all the weird restrictions and half-baked ideas that they found themselves in the middle of.
It was supposed to be a system that required verification for everything, and yet there was something like a ‘bait and switch’ that happened that I never noticed. What I began to absorb was a ‘faith-based’ mish-mash of ideas, and childish prophecy that were all under the umbrella of Burton’s distorted and bizarre ideas of ‘C influence’ and a misunderstanding of synchronicity. There was no connection to the Fourth Way. You were essentially told what it was that you would verify, and then because there was nothing and no one to show you how to trust yourself and how to begin uncovering conscience and how to develop a right relationship to yourself, you would then begin ‘verifying’ just exactly what you were told you would. Funny how that works.

107. Peter - November 24, 2008

panorea (47)

Wishing you a wonderfull life too!

i was shortly in the gf but i left again.
Maybe i join some other time again.
i really don’t know what to do with all those people.

i’am happily married with E. and we both like to
read books and make lots of small trips.

it is so good to be out of the fellowship and
to see that noting is lost except illusion.

And indeed like you said: it is good to not
need somebody to tell you how good you are.

But i know you are doing fine, enjoy your freedom

108. Daily Cardiac - November 24, 2008

Elena – 97

DC – “Those who manage to keep presence as the top priority have stayed, while those who have placed something above being present (I think of Old Fish’s list of joyful things) have departed.”

Elena – “Daily Cardiac, how considerate of you. What happens in your inner life when you undermine someone’s presentation of joy by ridiculing his emotion?”

I haven’t ridiculed Old Fish’s presentation of joy in any way. He actually wrote that list as a little “jab” to a statement I made about joy being a part of my life. The above comment made mention that on his fairly long list he did not include “joy is presence”, so it did not surprise me he left.

I also find it strange you would chastise me for ridiculing anyone when you constantly hurl insults my way. (You did apologize recently; has that Elena met this Elena?)

I happen to believe someone can speak to an “opponent” with a degree of respect and civility. That is one of my intents each time I write. Of course if one is presenting a supportive viewpoint about the FoF that is cause for many, including you, to take offense.

Here is your latest – “Stand up to your words with facts you sick fool. Get the hell out of Imagination dear, it is corroding your very spirit.”

This was just your last issue, but by no means your nastiest.

From post 95 – “How come you are the only one allowed to participate on the blog Daily Cardiac? Daily Cardiac who is clearly an official representative of the Fellowship is openly participating on the blog knowing that most of the members have already been indoctrinated to not read it because it’ll open their eyes.

As I have said several times I am not writing on the blog in any kind of official capacity. I have my own personal reasons for being here which I’ve mentioned more than once. And when I feel I’ve fulfilled my aim I will not continue beyond that. Not that you asked but I’m a lot closer to the end than the beginning.

“If the Fellowship were not afraid of the blog, it would not have asked the members to not read it. This alone shows that the Fellowship is a Cult and it will take you many years to recover from its effects in your life.”

The Fof has not asked anyone not to read the blog. Girard wrote an e-mail shortly after the blog appeared in response to some members asking him about it. In the e-mail, which I think was posted on the blog, he simply said he did not intend to read it as he did not consider it a good use of his time.

If you think about it you will see that it would be impossible for the FoF to prevent anyone from reading the blog. Do you think there is a squad of FoF policemen going from house to house checking people’s cache to see who’s been logging on to the blog?

Considering the extreme anti FoF views being posted on the blog I think Girard’s words were quite reasonable and practical.

Most students have read the blog. It’s natural to be curious about it. So, most students with a computer, or access to a computer, have read all the stories. Nothing (no information) is new at this point in time.

DC: “Because the lower self is all about preferences, denials, love (lust/obsession/identification), hate, opinions; etc.”

Elena – “LOVE, dear, makes the world go round, and there’s NONE of it in the Fellowship: just blind, fanatic commitment like all your posts demonstrate and all the member’s silent participation testifies for.

You can comment on what you found in the FoF but I don’t think you qualify on knowing what I find there. To think they are one and the same is folly.

109. dragon - November 24, 2008

Dear Cardiac Remedy, at least one time daily,

„The Fof has not asked anyone not to read the blog. Girard wrote an e-mail shortly after the blog appeared in response to some members asking him about it. In the e-mail, which I think was posted on the blog, he simply said he did not intend to read it as he did not consider it a good use of his time.”

Did he recommend it to you?
If not, why let you “wasting away” your precious essence and lifetime with lost life people (Food for the Moon).
Are you the “Blog-Salvator mundi” are you the broadcasting signal? Did you reveal your identity to Girard. You are the only one, who knows what’s going on.

You know who the demiurg is and you know his mother is Sophia. That’s why you are teaching your Blog students the truth through the middle of holes.

Cardiac, even Girard did furtively stuff like “watching fizzic films for adults only”( Source Elena, I think she is willing to justify in court concerning this and other events).

Do you really trust in this person (Girard)? Yes you do, still.

I think Girard passes a vote of confidence in you as long as you are his student.

Cardiac you are remaining faithful but what is going on in your brain chambers. Do you exorcise each time that doubt appears or a photograph of your brother or your parents flashes?

It is awfully hard for you to stay here on the Blog but here is at least one person who is ready to take you in his arms without reproach and this is your brother.

Every post of your brother is a sign for you and you will not be able to discuss your brother away.

Just think it over in a silent moment.

110. dragon - November 24, 2008

Toshiaki Komura

Law of Conservation in Boiled Eggs

In the hollow of a cookpot
in faults and places, water
keeps boiling. The white
vapor fogs my glasses. I turn
away, and the fog becomes saline
droplets-the way
an illicit romance becomes penance, the way
loss of hearing
creates a symphony. Feelings
suppressed, in my hollow, faulty place,
are conserved: they change their forms,
and do not go away. I stand in the kitchen
like a blue shadow someplace
between dusk and daybreak, snow and saltin
deeper mist, protein turning protean,
feelings, suppressed, make guilty exodus.

TOSHIAKI KOMURA received an MFA degree from Cornell University in 2002,
and is presently working toward a Ph.D. in English Literature at University of
Michigan. Toshiaki’s work has appeared in Contemporary Rhyme, Evansville
Review, River Oak Review, Sycamore Review, Willow Review, among others

111. dragon - November 24, 2008
112. ton - November 24, 2008

James…. definitely a ‘bait-and-switch’ situation in the FOF….
based on the ‘advertising’ (others have pointed out the fraudulent placement of FOF bookmarks in 4th Way books — that’s how the FOF hooked me into the web), I thought I was joining a ‘school of awakening’ only later realizing that the organization relied on the opposite. in order to keep the sheep in the fold, the organization depends on keeping it’s members asleep to realizing and actualizing their own individuality and human potential.

a ‘right relationship to oneself’ has nothing to do with what the FOF is about. the organization is set up to satisfy the insatiable cravings manifested through the desire-body of the hasnamus robot burton. there is a systemic rot in the FOF, the disease spreads through the organization from this canker at it’s core, it’s the source of the disease… another terrible irony of the situation is this: the “C” in “C influence” stands for cancer…. an apt metaphor as a descriptor of the disease that spreads from the source to the ‘organs’ that surround it.

the use of ‘synchronicity’ as another tool in the brainwashing arsenal is an excellent point… this technique uses the power of suggestion, using implants into the perception/thinking of the ‘student’ leading to an effective form of mind control and a type of ‘self-fulfilling prophecy.’

In Social Theory and Social Structure, R.K. Merton writes:

“The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come ‘true’. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning.

In other words, a prophecy declared as truth when it is actually false may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the once-false prophecy.

….THE ONLY WAY TO BREAK THE CYCLE IS BY REDEFINING THE PROPOSITIONS ON WHICH ITS FALSE ASSUMPTIONS ARE ORIGINALLY BASED.”

thanks to all for helping to redefine the false premises upon which the FOF depends for it’s continued existence.

113. Old Fish in the Sea - November 24, 2008

DC:” I haven’t ridiculed Old Fish’s presentation of joy in any way. He actually wrote that list as a little “jab” to a statement I made about joy being a part of my life. The above comment made mention that on his fairly long list he did not include “joy is presence”, so it did not surprise me he left.”

Daily Card, I respect you for having the courage to face the OUT worldview. When I was IN, I found it disconcerting to go on the web and read about The Hell Letter and other pieces of information that did not fit my warm picture of the Fellowship. I remember once breaking into a sweat while reading the web. The dissonance was gone after a few days and I stayed in for another 10 years or so, but had I faced the facts of the Fellowship every day I think it might have worn me down sooner. I was able to go back into the FOF world where I saw what I wanted to see and avoided thinking about the aspects of the Fellowship that bothered me, or I found ways to rationalize them. Your consistency in returning to confront these thoughts is remarkable and I would be surprised if it is always easy for you.

I did not write my list of joys as a jab at you. The inspiration came from a letter I was writing to a friend and it really had nothing to do with the blog. I was just feeling really good about life and noting the contrast to when I was in, where I often felt that living was a chore. From what I can tell most people that leave experience this joy. You might say that it comes because the work involves pressure, and when we leave the pressure is taken away. One member told me that Robert once said that “Students that leave feel Relief”. I believe this is true, and I tried in my ‘joys’ to outline why.

I guess it is possible that my ‘joys’ were stimulated by what you said, or by comments about what you said, but I was not aware of the connection when I wrote my list.

There is pressure in the Fellowship and it does make living more difficult. The question before us all is whether this pressure really helps personal evolution or whether it is more like hitting your head against a wall. There is pressure outside the Fellowship also, but it is usually related to our own weaknesses (what we attract), and less related to supporting the teacher through long hours of work and trying to rationalize his way of life. Also, I think there is considerable pressure because of Robert’s division of so much into good and bad, lower/higher useful/unuseful etc. The result was that we were frequently looking at ourselves and others to see if we were good or bad. Either we were present or we were not. Whether those pressures have any use is a good subject for a blog. I thought they did for a while – then I came to a place where I began to feel that leaving would put pressure on me in a totally different, and I think healthy way. Part of the experiment of leaving was an attempt to take responsibility for my own values. To let go of the Father figure.

This process means starting over and rebuilding a personality that is my own – a true personality that allows my essence to grow according to my values, talents and inclinations- not as anyone else thinks it should grow. I now believe that this is a very powerful process which for at least some of us is difficult to accomplish while in. In the Fellowship we are like birds with our wings clipped so we do not fly away. This may be useful for a while. It is no accident that I call myself ‘Old Fish’. I was aware that I was getting older. I was no longer the 23 year old that joined. I did not want to die without trying to see if I might grow faster under different conditions.

I would like to see the wall between those that are in and those that are out become less of a wall. I believe that Robert has built that wall and that we all tend to form our view based on which side of the wall we find ourselves. Currently it is not an easy wall to climb. My blogs are partly aimed at helping members to see that there are other legitimate ways of viewing the world – that there are joys outside of the gates and yes, outside of presence as taught in the Fellowship.

I mentoned that my joys were not a jab at you. I also did, despite what you say, mention presence as a joy:

“Joy is being present because I want to be present to a joyful life, not because I feel I should.”

As I have mentioned before, there is a tendency in the Fellowship to see presence as duty and I find that Presence is best (it goes much deeper) when it becomes a love. Some of the Robert’s pressures turn it into duty (clickers).

I believe there is joy in presence, but there is also joy in supporting worthwhile activities – in working for something larger than ourselves – something we feel is a good cause. I assume this is why you blog – it is your way of supporting the FOF and you feel that the FOF is a good cause. Retirement is not about putting away money, but more about finding activities and something to support that will provide meaningful work in old age. I think you have found that for yourself in the Fellowship. If for some reason that should change (and it does for most at some point), you will find yourself in a place where it may be more difficult to leave than to stay and still leaving may be the right choice.

Ideally we each must make our own decisions about what is best for our life. This is not always the case. Sometimes our decisions are influenced by others so that we cannot make our own decision. There are many options and staying is not the only legitimate decision. I think this needs to be said because, Robert and the Fellowship always made leaving into something that only a “lost soul” would do. This attitude is harmful. Some of us came to a point where we felt that we were no longer supporting a healthy organizaton. There may come a point when only a “lost soul” would stay. I say this to balance the oposing point of view which has been drilled into us for years. This is perhaps why Elena took your comment as an insult to me.

Best wishes to you Daily Card. I don’t think any of us have all the answers. You made a few assumptions about me that were not correct. Perhaps we also make some about you.

Sweet Joy I call thee:
Thou dost smile,
I sing the while;
Sweet joy befall thee!
Sweet joy befall thee!

William Blake

114. ton - November 24, 2008

DC the shill writes again:
“As I have said several times I am not writing on the blog in any kind of official capacity. I have my own personal reasons for being here which I’ve mentioned more than once. And when I feel I’ve fulfilled my aim I will not continue beyond that. Not that you asked but I’m a lot closer to the end than the beginning.”

what is your ‘aim’?

imo you do have an ‘official capacity’ here although it may not be ‘officially’ sanctioned by your cult. you are the current FOF shill…. but in your own mind, a legend. a heroic agitator and ‘protagonist,’ a gentle apologist, and a martyr and ‘noble defender of the cause…’ right?

you also write:

“If you think about it you will see that it would be impossible for the FoF to prevent anyone from reading the blog. Do you think there is a squad of FoF policemen going from house to house checking people’s cache to see who’s been logging on to the blog?”

i can see and understand that you are having trouble recognizing the ‘chains of mental slavery’ you think of the chains as adornments and you are not yet cognizant of the mechanisms involved… we are going to have to go over it again and again until the light goes on for you.

it might help if you remember, the processes described here operate without your awareness, in fact their effectiveness is proportional to the degree and extent that you are not aware.
by bringing attention and awareness to the situation, by shedding light on the process, it begins to lose it’s hold, when you begin to ‘wake up’ to the situation, the brainwash loses it’s grip and control over your thinking and behavior. take a minute or two to read the following, take two aspirin and call me in the morning:

“Brainwashing may be defined as a set of transactions between a charismatically led collectivity and an isolated agent of the collectivity with the goal of transforming the agent into a deployable agent….

The result of this process… is to make the individual a deployable agent of the charismatic authority. THIS IS NOT MERELY COMMITMENT BUT A FORM OF COMMITMENT THAT DOES NOT DEPEND ON CONTINUOUS SURVEILLANCE BY THE GROUP….

…this process is a fundamental restructuring of self through a reorganization of preferences. But the brainwashing process does not simply take people apart. It puts them back together in a new and functionally adequate way. If it did not, they would be useless as deployable agents.

The cognitive goal of the rebirth stage is to establish a sense of ownership (and pride of ownership) of the new convictions. The emotional goal of the rebirth stage is to deindividuate to a sufficient extent that one no longer recognizes the emotional validity of life aside from the charismatically led collectivity. Overall, at the completion of the rebirth stage, we may say that the person has become a fully deployable agent of the charismatic leader.”

115. aline - November 24, 2008

#109 Dragon, and for DC
Just to refreh one’s memory, here is the email of Girard:

“Dear Friends,
In response to some confusion among students regarding how they should respond to the “Fellowship blog,” I am writing to offer a few suggestions.

First, I would try to honestly ask myself which parts of my being are attracted to the blog and what are their motives. The higher parts associated with true personality may have a genuine interest in what is occurring within the School and what is being reported — truly or falsely — on the blog, but one must watch carefully to recognize when that need has been satisfied and a lower part of oneself has ascended. In other words, if you feel you need to read the blog, be careful.

The same applies to responding to the blog, only here the questions I would ask myself are what are my aims and what part of me do they come from; what would I hope to accomplish; who do I wish to communicate with, and to what purpose? If one posts something to the blog, no matter what its contents are, one is essentially communicating with former students, and we have a task to minimize that as much as possible. There are many reasons for this task, so before submitting something to the blog, I would ask myself what those reasons are and why I felt it was necessary to override them. Many years ago I went through the process of asking myself exactly those questions. If anyone is interested, the answers I found are recorded in the chapter on “Former Students” in the book “Creating a Soul.”

However, those are my answers, based on my verifications. Some students may find it useful to read them, but it is still necessary for each student who comes into contact with the blog to establish his own relation to it. And although I do not wish to answer those questions for anyone, I do wish to go on record as saying that frankly I now feel that I have better ways to use my time and energy.

Finally, I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate the offer that was made by E…h B…e, the Isis center directors — M…G….g, H….e F…n and C…a L….i — and myself to listen to any concerns any student might have about any aspect of the life and teaching of the Fellowship. And I know that there are many others who would gladly make the same offer.
In friendship, ”
Girard

116. elena - November 24, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

To call someone a pimp when it’s true, is not an insult.
Besides calling the Fellowship a Cult and a “high intensity, high control, closed group which engages in deceptive and manipulative conduct.”, I would also call it a “brothel” without insulting anyone.

But I’ll try to not be as formatory as you like and I’ll take your photograph in its worth. I am as a friend said: “extreme and brutal” and I’m not trying to cover the situation we’re in with “king of hearts” indoctrination to make it sound less corrupt. You happy now?

“Stand up to your words with facts you sick fool. Get the hell out of Imagination dear, it is corroding your very spirit.”

Do it Daily Cardiac! Stand up to your words with facts and stop acting like a sick fool. Get the hell out of imagination and the Fellowship because it is corroding your very spirit!

Do you like that better dear? Dear with love and a pinch of horror? Is it very disturbing for you to get your emotional center moving out of the chrystals of Fellowship form?

Can you see the love behind the words or do you insist on being blind to the love?

DC“If the Fellowship were not afraid of the blog, it would not have asked the members to not read it. This alone shows that the Fellowship is a Cult and it will take you many years to recover from its effects in your life.”

I personally received an official e-mail from the Fellowship suggesting that we do not read the blog which was shortly followed up by Girard’s letter saying he did not waste his time on such things. If Girard were just anyone, it would not matter, but Girard is “bible” within the Fellowship and he doesn’t need to say more than that for members to have a good justification to not read it themselves. In their idolatry they conform with doing what Girard does rather than finding out for themselves. What is most sick about Girard when one starts studying “Creating a Soul” as I’ve just done, is that he misleads the members by being a master at making the distorted presentations of reality, an act of trust. He uses the emotional centre to get the members to trust his status as second to be conscious being while disempowering them intellectually and not allowing for dialogue, sitting on his status and the form.

You are trying to repeat the same pattern here with a great deal of success I must admit, but not nearly as much as you would like or need.

Nevertheless, you have me love and respect for your much questioned presence here.

You are as official a representatitve of the Fellowship as you are formatory. You are trying out things to see what works but you are not honest enough to say that you’re looking for solutions. The problem is you want solutions without change. You want to “mellow it out” to see if you can get away with it but we don’t buy it.

I’ll offer you some solutions:

You close the Fellowship.
You commit to not recruiting new members which are its life.
You open meetings to ex-members and members.
You stop charging ludicrous amounts
You take Robert off the pulpit and give him and the main enablers intense care with professional therapy by Cult experts.
You become an “open, loving and caring” community

Yes, Girard’s letter and all the efforts of the Fellowship to prevent people from reading failed and you’ve lost over seven hundred members. Isn’t it wonderful?

DC: “Because the lower self is all about preferences, denials, love (lust/obsession/identification), hate, opinions; etc.”

There is no such a thing as the lower self separate from the higher self. You are not a machine. You are one being struggling with difficulties to fulfil the possibilities of this lifetime, just like everyday you go out to work and try to make something better out of it. Don’t waste the day love! You were not born to walk backwards.

Your depressing outlook on the World and life are an impressive justification of why you are in a Cult but it is as distorted a view of reality as of your self. Your views have obviously developed from painful experiences that you’ve not been able to transform. Deepning the suffering by belonging to a Cult that promotes a deeper separation from life rather than working with it, will take your possibilities of working with what you got and carrying that with pride and humility.

Your life, that is, the family you belonged to, may have been a dysfunctional family like most of them are, but they still gave you their best and beyond their weaknesses is the long lost longing for love. If you can forgive them for being victims of their time, you can give others what you know you missed: love. That is all everyone of us has missed! Your life, that is your family, and the society you belong to are determined by the same TIME and the mishaps in society are similar to those within the family.

If you can understand what was happening in society, you will understand what happened to your family and allow yourself to be more compassionate with the people who have had an influence in your life.

The connection between third and first line is what determines the second line or life in the practical aspects of it. The clarity with which you connect to humanity at large is what determines the way you behave with your neighbour. That is why there is no second line in the Fellowship of Friends: because the connection between humanity and each individual member is being replaced by “beautifying Apollo”, “Auctions”, “Journey Forth’s by Day” so that Robert can justify his lifestyle in GRAND SCALE leaving no “life” for the members.

After seeing all the horror in your life which is only a minor portion of it, allow yourself to look at the beauty and the love that was there, one way or another, and coming often from people who had no obligation to give you any of it. That will allow you to recover trust in life. Find the love. The real mother is life itself. “Dad” stands behind her, filling her with births but to see that, you’ve got to deal with your actual physical reality. The “Fourth Way” is the Way of Life!

“YOU” haven’t got to “DO ANYTHING”! That’s just what helps me!!

117. dragon - November 24, 2008

115. aline

Let go! Everything is gonna be alright, Chère Aline!

It is rummage sale!

118. Mick Danger - November 24, 2008

Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics
Part 56 -1st 40 posts:
19 posters
5 posts by DC
16 posts to/about DC

119. Daily Cardiac - November 24, 2008

Jomo Piñata – 103:

I’m content to let my comments of 32 stand next to your counterpoints. It would be too time consuming, not to mention pointless, to go back and refute your refutations one by one. (but very tempting)

I will make one comment. There was a unifying point to the several analogies I made in 32. It was the idea that we are perfectly capable of discriminating decisivly and accurately when it regards our earthly wants or needs, but we fail miserably (selecting the exact opposite of what we claim to be seeking, and then staying decades before we realize our mistake) when it comes to much more important decisions like those affecting our spiritual/eternal needs.

That doesn’t make sense to me, yet that is implied in the blog’s company line.

If a deity is responsible for that kind of shoddy hard wiring we all have much bigger problems than the FoF. And if that points to the fact there’s no deity that’s an even bigger problem.(for some like myself anyway)

DC – “You, more than anyone on the blog, have offered proof of what I’m talking about.”

I was not suggesting any bigotry, just referring to some Nazi material you posted which sparked the urge in me to write the second half of 32.

120. Jomo Piñata - November 24, 2008

Lacuna Piñata/118

I’m content to let my comments of 32 stand next to your counterpoints. It would be too time consuming, not to mention pointless, to go back and refute your refutations one by one. (but very tempting)

I agree it would be time consuming. And if you are completely unwilling to challenge the views you hold after having their weaknesses pointed out to you in a forthright and honest fashion, you are probably correct that discussion is pointless. So far as I can tell, you are content with superficial skirmishes, rather than any kind of sustained exchange that might lead to the reexamination of your position. But if that is the case, you should re-examine whether you are actually committed to the cause of your spiritual growth. Your reply emanates a self-satisfaction with your own blindness. I don’t think it’s healthy.

I will make one comment. There was a unifying point to the several analogies I made in 32. It was the idea that we are perfectly capable of discriminating decisivly and accurately when it regards our earthly wants or needs, but we fail miserably (selecting the exact opposite of what we claim to be seeking, and then staying decades before we realize our mistake) when it comes to much more important decisions like those affecting our spiritual/eternal needs.

I am listening carefully to what you are saying. I have a pretty good mind. But here I’m not connecting the dots. Are you saying that we trust our ability to discriminate with respect to things other than spiritual matters, so shouldn’t we also trust our ability to discriminate with respect to spiritual matters?

Let me be clear: I am not saying “we fail miserably.” Indeed, one of the paradoxical lessons I learned from my Fellowship involvement is that we can have genuinely profound and spiritual experiences even in a destructive cult, because we are inherently spiritual beings. But I *am* saying, don’t let the fact that you have had genuinely profound and spiritual experiences distract you from calling exploitation and narcissism by their true names.

That doesn’t make sense to me, yet that is implied in the blog’s company line.

The reason this puzzles me is that I am not aware that “the blog” has a “company line” or a “party line.” Maybe it appears that way to you, but the fact is, I coordinate with no one and I frequently read things that I disagree with here. There are a lot of people who feel that they were lied to, manipulated and exploited. (I guess that might be mistaken by a party line; but no one has enforced it on me.) Others feel differently about it and they post here too.

If a deity is responsible for that kind of shoddy hard wiring we all have much bigger problems than the FoF. And if that points to the fact there’s no deity that’s an even bigger problem.(for some like myself anyway)

You *do* jump to conclusions. AND your thinking is FUZZY. You should require more of yourself. You have some gumption as evidenced by the fact that you post here at all. You should martial that gumption to EDUCATE yourself, to pursue lines of inquiry WHERE THEY LEAD, not just where you want them to go. I give you credit for the courage to post here, but not for the courage to continue discussions when you become afraid of where they might lead you.

DC – “You, more than anyone on the blog, have offered proof of what I’m talking about.”
I was not suggesting any bigotry, just referring to some Nazi material you posted which sparked the urge in me to write the second half of 32.

Thank you for clarifying this. Of course you have not responded to any of the points I raised in addressing what you posted in the second half of 32. I see no evidence you have even thought about the points raised. I encourage you to look back and what I wrote, take it in and think about it!

121. Jomo Piñata - November 24, 2008

N.B.: the word “martial” near the bottom of my prior post should read “marshal”….

122. Jomo Piñata - November 24, 2008

Lacuna Piñata:
It would be too time consuming, not to mention pointless, to go back and refute your refutations one by one. (but very tempting)

Lacuna, you are no Pierre de Fermat. When you say you could refute the points I made, I don’t believe you. If you were to show some analytical deftness and skill, my opinion could change, but based on the conversations we have thus far had, yours is a dishonest end to the discussion. “I could refute you, and am tempted, but it would be too time consuming.” Bullshit.

123. unoanimo - November 24, 2008

“(but very tempting)”

DC, this is something truly damaging and diabolical to the heart, that we learned “Laterally” (on the subconscious sly) in the FOF: many of us learned to lie about our actual possibilities (as they sat AS-IS in the moment) with the hope/faith of true-personality-mind fluttering: some of us learned to to lie with indifferent hope, positive superstition coached in esoteric-religiousness and advanced magnetic-center-prerequisite complacent comparing of oneself to others in hope of good news from the negative side of Vanity so to keep striving for a part in “The Play”…

This hinting (i.e.,”but very tempting”), the teasing of the soul that ~ There’s ‘right work’ to do, though no time to hire yourself to do it, is BIG, really, particularly when Opportunity, in the form of Jomo’s incredibly fair and even walking with you, is knocking, like Jupiter nudging Saturn to give it a ring sometime…

Imo, this ‘teasing through what one could do, rather than being What one is’, the sharing of bad news that ‘I am not remembering myself enough’ with only “Fuzzy” love concerning today’s reconciliations, is one of the subtle forms of negativity that I truly am so, so glad I was able to envisage in myself and begin moving through and away from, as my checking account began showing no signs of the FOF.

The subtle forms of negativity that hold the FOF together are awesome and not to be underestimated; intimations start wars, not words, not actions; imo, intimations are the mythic wardens walking this Earth; may God’s calm heartbeat stand betwixt your own.

Remember, you do not have to worry about bad breath when your head is in a lion’s mouth.

124. jomopinata - November 24, 2008

Note image change. It’s intended as a sop to those who would dismiss me as an evil clown. Now they have an excuse!

125. Daily Cardiac - November 24, 2008

ton – 113:

Quoted by ton – “The cognitive goal of the rebirth stage is to establish a sense of ownership (and pride of ownership) of the new convictions. The emotional goal of the rebirth stage is to deindividuate to a sufficient extent that one no longer recognizes the emotional validity of life aside from the charismatically led collectivity. Overall, at the completion of the rebirth stage, we may say that the person has become a fully deployable agent of the charismatic leader.”

This happens countless times in the business world, just to mention one application.

You’re pushing your viewpoint which is fine, but in the process you’ve missed my point; that humans, in their normal “waking” state, are all potential deployable agents for any number of organizations, secular or spiritual/religious, that fate would have them stumble onto. This is made possible by conforming laws such as FD.

“Cult” leaders are not very different from politicians, military leaders, corporate leaders, many of who, if you’ve paid attention to current events over the years, have shown a propensity to engage in activities that call into question the functionality of their conscience.

How much harm/pain/suffering/even death has a person like Ken Lay, orchestrator of Enron, caused to millions of people? Yet he is not mentioned on anyone’s list of hasnamouses. Or a handful of self made eBillionaires, who fueled and capitalized on the sub prime mortgage phenomenon?

Actuually “cults”, for the most part, mind their own business and rarely make headlines. It’s the once a decade looney tune, like Marshall Applewhite, the Heaven’s Gate founder, or Jim Jones, who stir fear into everyone’s hearts and minds, and cause the confusing designation of “cults” to be artificially elevated and given their own lexicon.

Cult leader types are a dime a dozen. They share certain character traits with other accepted leaders; many have power/vanity/lunatic as a prominent alignment of features. Many movie stars, world class athletes, corporate leaders also share that same make up.

Some “cult” leaders have the added element of being predisposed to a criminal lifestyle (Manson). He was an oddity in that he had more of a secular trapping to his role.

Most of these individuals who get pegged as cult leaders could have operated in any number of arenas. They chose a religious /spiritual role because with all the hocus pocus involved it’s harder to detect an impostor. Where is the line drawn where a tele-evangelist ends and a cult leader begins?

If someone says they are being instructed by God, who can disavow that? The more convincing they are the more acceptance they garner. But they are not unique in any way.

Many ex members of the FoF have an added interest in this area of cults, because obviously, if they can do their part to propagate the notion that the FoF is a cult it lets them off the hook a great deal.

While it’s admirable to leave and expose a cult; there is an obvious stigma attached to a seeker leaving a conscious school.

126. Golb - November 24, 2008

55/172 Veramente

124.344 Hits then!
128.366 Hits now!

=4000 hits in 7 days

+/- 250 posts

35 post per day

25 dedicated people (more?) X 7 day X 15 hits = 2625 hits

115 petitioners read blog once a day for what they can on one hit only = 805 hits

Visitors (?) remains at 570 hits

Divided by 7 days with 3 hits per day each dedicated visitor (read ten posts by hit if you can) = 27 visitors (?)

= The Blog

(and this is quite fair I think) Everybody here should hit a bit more to enhance the appareance of this stuff!

I knew it was a small world!

Moral: also DC is loosing his time.
G.

127. Jomo Piñata - November 25, 2008

Lacuna Piñata:

Many ex members of the FoF have an added interest in this area of cults, because obviously, if they can do their part to propagate the notion that the FoF is a cult it lets them off the hook a great deal.

You correctly point out that there is stigma–social opprobium–attached to the concept of leaving the Fellowship of Friends. So you are correct in your observation that if people do research on cults, and find that the Fellowship is really very similar to other cults, the stigma of leaving will be lessened and they may find themselves able to step outside the Yezidi circle.

While it’s admirable to leave and expose a cult; there is an obvious stigma attached to a seeker leaving a conscious school.

What is obvious about your comment is how you have come to accept the stigma as the norm. To you it is so normal that you describe it as obvious. Yet any other institution which may properly characterized as a “school” graduates its students on a regular basis. Your comment only underscores the fact that you have become inured to something very strange indeed, a school that stigmatizes its own graduates to prevent them from leaving.

128. Jomo Piñata - November 25, 2008

Very good, Lacuna, that you’ve mentioned Marshall Applewhite of Heaven’s Gate (39 suicides), and Jim Jones of the People’s Temple (911-912 deaths, a mixture of suicides and murders). Let’s not forget Shoko Asahara (Aum Shinrikyo, which carried out the 1995 sarin attacks in the Tokyo subway), David Koresh (the Branch Davidians) (76 deaths, a combination of suicides and murders). One might think the phenomenon warrants analysis. How did Marshall Applewhite inspire those 39 souls to take their own lives? How did Jim Jones do it? How did David Koresh do it? To persuade people to act in such bizarre ways, these men must have been pretty persuasive characters.

I don’t see the same level of offense perpetrated at the corporate level. Sure, corporate crime exists, a point your reference to Ken Lay makes easily. But separating people from their money through complicated guile warrants one level of culpability, and separating people from their wits so that they drink cyanide cocktails in anticipation of meeting the Hale-Bopp mothership warrants quite another. Anybody want to cop to leaving a job to move to Oregon House in anticipation of the Fall of California or the prophesied large-scale nuclear war? Anybody want to opine whether this is more like Ken Lay’s confidence scheme, or more like Marshall Applewhite’s?

129. Opus 111 - November 25, 2008

Glob:

It is not just DC who is wasting his/her time, that would be you if you are still in the FOF.

You statistics show an interest in numbers. You may be in line to become the “super-intendant of sequence arithmetics”, teaching the devotees that 6 + 4 indeed equals 10, on most days.

That being said, your assumptions are a bit funny, and I may say, a bit biased. Where do you get that “dedicated people”I do, an average of 2 times a day, then they would only account for 350 hits. That would be a little bit inconvenient. It might imply that there are more non-dedicated, casual visitors: FOF members in the throes of their weekly angst or the yet uninformed prospective members. Yikes!

Who knows? Most of the “dedicated” people (and, I am sure, this includes DC) would say: any day anyone in the FOF (or interested in the FOF) is able to think a little more clearly for himself or herself because of what he or she read on the blog, that day, my friend, is a very good day.

Keep counting!

130. fofblogmoderator - November 25, 2008

111 & 124 are newly moderated

131. unoanimo - November 25, 2008

124.344 Hits then…
128.430 Hits now…

=4075 hits in 7 days

+/- 258 posts

36 posts per day

20 dedicated people X 7 days X 3 hits a day = 420 hits/7Days

I am not counting your petition numbers because you’ve already counted 25 of them prior in your dedicated people bracket + that’s an assumption Golb, you rascal, you.

Visitors (?) remains at 3655 hits*
*That’s minus the ‘dedicated ones’…

= 523 hits a day (approx.)

3655 divided by 7 days with 2 hits per day each dedicated visitor = 261 dedicated visitors a day

= The estimated Blog

Golb; I understand that you’re used to quantity equaling quality, though, that’s just not it, is it? That you’re reading it in spite of your own ‘important calculations’ pretty much says it all.

132. Yesri Baba - November 25, 2008

Hey Jomo, where did you get my picture? Now everyone is going to know what I look like. (on the inside)

133. whalerider - November 25, 2008

Daily Challenge:
“They chose a religious /spiritual role because with all the hocus pocus involved it’s harder to detect an impostor.”

For once I agree with you: it is hard to detect an imposter. For some it takes decades, even those within the cult, especially if the cult leader is aloof.

This is the same grey area in which your cult leader Burton operates…but not for much longer. Apparently both Ouspensky and Gurdjieff had the integrity to close their schools before they degenerated into cults.

“…there is an obvious stigma attached to a seeker leaving a conscious school.”

I’d say there would be a stigma attached if the seeker didn’t find what they were looking for within a conscious school and remained a seeker (or sucker, as the case may be) whether they stayed or left.

How does that compared to the stigma of being exploited by a cult leader?

134. Yesri Baba - November 25, 2008

125

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH….oh..oh…oh..oh…BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

135. Jomo Piñata - November 25, 2008

132/Yesri

Are you my long lost evil twin?

136. ton - November 25, 2008

SO EARLIER UP HE PAGE THE SHILL WRITES:

“…we all have much bigger problems than the FoF…”

AND ISN’T IT THE TRUTH… JUST WHEN IT SEEMS WE’RE MAKING SOME PROGRESS, THE NEXT POST ESCALATES ATTEMPTS AND EXERCISES IN MANIPULATION. (SINCE THE FOLLOWING NONSENSE LEFT UNDER THE MONIKER ‘DC’ SEEMS TO BE DIRECTED TO ME, I’ILL ADD/INTERJECT BRIEF COMMENTS — IN UPPER CASE FONT TO DISTINGUISH IT FROM WHAT THE SHILL POSTED).

123. Daily Cardiac – November 24, 2008

ton – 113:

Quoted by ton – “The cognitive goal of the rebirth stage is to establish a sense of ownership (and pride of ownership) of the new convictions. The emotional goal of the rebirth stage is to deindividuate to a sufficient extent that one no longer recognizes the emotional validity of life aside from the charismatically led collectivity. Overall, at the completion of the rebirth stage, we may say that the person has become a fully deployable agent of the charismatic leader.”

THE ‘DEPLOYABLE AGENT’ ATTEMPTS TO DEFLECT BY CHANGING THE SUBJECT, THIS WHOLE POST IS ABOUT DIVERSION TACTICS:

“This happens countless times in the business world, just to mention one application.”

NEXT THE SHILL ATTEMPTS TO CONTROL THINGS BY ‘GENEROUSLY’ GIVING PERMISSION FOR MY POINT OF VIEW… SHOULD I SAY ‘THANK YOU?’ —

“You’re pushing your viewpoint which is fine,”

THE SHILL SLINGS A NASTY BIT OF BULLSHIT HERE… REFERENCES ‘THE SYSTEM’ — USES CULTPSEEK — ‘FD’ (‘FEMININE DOMINANCE’) THE SHILL ATTEMPTS TO ESTABLISH RAPPORT USING THE ‘JARGON’ AS AN INFLUENCER…. THE WHOLE BULLSHIT MEME-NOTION OF ‘FEMININE DOMINANCE’ HAPPENS TO BE A VERY EFFECTIVE TOOL FOR MIND/BEHAVIOR CONTROL… AFTERALL, WHETHER WE KNOW IT CONSCIOUSLY OR NOT WE ALL HAD MOTHERS, OR WERE OTHERWISE ‘MOTHERED’… FINDING OR ESTABLISHING A ‘COMMONALITY’ IS ONE DEVICE USED TO DEVELOP RAPPORT.
HERE GOES THE SHILL:

“but in the process you’ve missed my point; that humans, in their normal “waking” state, are all potential deployable agents for any number of organizations, secular or spiritual/religious, that fate would have them stumble onto. This is made possible by conforming laws such as FD.

NOW THE BULLSHIT AND ATTEMPTS AT DEFLECTION WILL INCREASE TO A CRESCENDO….

“Cult” leaders are not very different from politicians, military leaders, corporate leaders, many of who, if you’ve paid attention to current events over the years, have shown a propensity to engage in activities that call into question the functionality of their conscience.

(NON OF THIS BY THE WAY, HAS ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ROBOT BURTON’S VERSION OF THE A CALLED THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS…)

“How much harm/pain/suffering/even death has a person like Ken Lay, orchestrator of Enron, caused to millions of people? Yet he is not mentioned on anyone’s list of hasnamouses. Or a handful of self made eBillionaires, who fueled and capitalized on the sub prime mortgage phenomenon?

SECRECY AND COMPARITIVE DIMINISHING ABSOLVES CRIMINALITY… NOT.

Actuually “cults”, for the most part, mind their own business and rarely make headlines.”

MORE RATIONALIZATION AND DIMINISHING ANOTHER FORM OF ABSOLUTION, COMPARING THE FOF TO THE MOST EXTREME FORM OF CULT MIND CONTROL–I.E. MASS SUICIDE:

“It’s the once a decade looney tune, like Marshall Applewhite, the Heaven’s Gate founder, or Jim Jones, who stir fear into everyone’s hearts and minds, and cause the confusing designation of “cults” to be artificially elevated and given their own lexicon.”

TO DIMINISH AND DEFLECT FROM THE FOF SITUATION, HEAVEN’S GATE AND JONESTOWN ARE MENTIONED. AT LEAST THE SHILL IS ON THE RIGHT PAGE… BUT THEN MORE OBFUSCATIONS AND MORE ‘FUZZY THINKING’ FOLLOW:

Cult leader types are a dime a dozen. They share certain character traits with other accepted leaders; many have power/vanity/lunatic as a prominent alignment of features. Many movie stars, world class athletes, corporate leaders also share that same make up.

NO ARGUMENT THERE, I’VE SAID BEFORE THAT AS FAR AS SUCCESSFUL SOCIOPATHS GO, “ROBOT BURTON IS SMALL POTATOES” —

Some “cult” leaders have the added element of being predisposed to a criminal lifestyle (Manson). He was an oddity in that he had more of a secular trapping to his role.

YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME ????!!!! DESCRIBING MANSON AS A ‘SECULAR ODDITY’ — THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH YOU…. YOU’RE REALLY AND TRULY OFF THE WALL. BUT AT LEAST YOU ARE STILL ON THE RIGHT CHAPTER — CULTS, CULT LEADEARS AND CULT MENTALITY:

“Most of these individuals who get pegged as cult leaders could have operated in any number of arenas. They chose a religious /spiritual role because with all the hocus pocus involved it’s harder to detect an impostor. Where is the line drawn where a tele-evangelist ends and a cult leader begins?”

EXACTLY THE POINT…VERY GOOD…. ONE DIFFERENCE I CAN THINK OF, ‘THE LINE’ AS YOU PUT IT, IS THE FACT THAT ROBOT BURTON IS NOT TELEVISED… THE REST OF IT, THE PART ABOUT THE DIFFICULTY IN DETECTING AN IMPOSTOR… I DON’T DISAGREE, MAYBE ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE INVESTING TOO MUCH IN WHAT YOU PROJECT AND PERCEIVE TO BE ‘GOD’ IN YOUR CULT LEADER… THIS IS ONE PROJECTION YOU WOULD DO WELL TO WITHDRAW…. JUNG TALKS ABOUT “WITHDRAWING PROJECTIONS” — FOOD FOR REFLECTION AND RE-SEARCH….

“If someone says they are being instructed by God, who can disavow that?”

I’LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF A CIRCUMSTANCE WHEREIN GOD IS BEING ‘DISAVOWED’ AS YOU PUT IT:

LET’S TAKE A CULT MEMBER OF THE FOF FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE BELIEF THAT CONTACT WITH GOD OCCURS ONLY IN ‘INSTRUCTIONS’ TRANSMITTED THROUGH A ‘MIDDLE MAN,’ YOUR OWN AND ‘VERY EXCLUSIVE’ INTERMEDIARY/ CONDUIT TO ‘CELESTIAL INFLUENCE’ — YOU KNOW WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT… IT’S THE CULT OF ROBOT BURTON — MAINTAINING THE BELIEF THAT THE ONLY WAY TO GOD IS THROUGH ROBOT BURTON IS AN EXAMPLE OF A CIRCUMSTANCE IN WHICH YOU FORSAKE THE GOD WITHIN YOURSELF BY WORSHIPPING AT THE ALTER OF ANOTHER.

“The more convincing they are the more acceptance they garner. But they are not unique in any way.”

AGAIN, AS FAR AS SUCCESSFUL SOCIOPATHS AND CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES GO, THE FOF IS SMALL POTATOES…. THAT DOES NOT DIMINISH CULPABILITY FOR CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES.

Many ex members of the FoF have an added interest in this area of cults, because obviously, if they can do their part to propagate the notion that the FoF is a cult it lets them off the hook a great deal.

THE FOF NOT A CULT???!!! YOU GOTTA BE JOKING RIGHT? SELF- CONTRADICTION IS A FORM OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE WHICH IS ANOTHER TOOL OF… OR AT LEAST ONE OF THE RESULTS OF MIND CONTROL AND BRAINWASHING.

While it’s admirable to leave and expose a cult; there is an obvious stigma attached to a seeker leaving a conscious school.

WARNING:
THE SO-CALLED ‘STIGMA ATTACHED TO LEAVING A CONSCIOUS SCHOOL’ IS ONE OF THE MOST EFFECTIVE MIND CONTROL TOOLS THIS CULT UTILIZES. BELIEF IN THIS PARTICULAR ‘IMPLANT’ IN THE BRAINWASHING PROCESS IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE ‘INVISIBLE FENCE’ THAT’S ERECTED BY THE INMATES/SHEEP THEMSELVES. THE CULTIST / BELIEVERS SERVE AS INCUBATORS OF MEMES LIKE THIS AND IT’S THEIR OWN COLLECTIVE AND MUTUALLY REINFORCING BELIEF SYSTEM THAT KEEPS THEM ‘IN THE FOLD’ (AS IT WERE, AND AS IT IS) .

137. ton - November 25, 2008
138. elena - November 25, 2008

“Working with Center of Gravity” Creating a Soul Page 121 by G. Haven

“In my own case, for example, being intellectually centered, it is not uncommon for me to know something is true long before I am able to perceive that truth directly. For a long time, I inner considered about speaking from such knowledge – after all, isn’t it lying to speak about things you haven’t verified? From one angle, this may be true, but it is also true that it is one thing to speak about things imagining you have verified them and quite another to speak about them knowing you have not but with the certainty that they are true nevertheless.

This is where faith comes in. To me, faith is having the courage to stand up for what you are sure is true even when your level of being at that time is not sufficient to experience or perceive that truth directly. In doing this, we are preparing the machine to accept the literally inexplicable understanding which will come from higher centers when they manifest. We are also generating the necessary friction for our struggle.”

Does it really need explanation? If you are a member, I challenge you to find out all the manipulations before I show them because anyone of us, had we trusted our selves enough, would have been able to challenge that reasoning, years and years ago and helped Girard not become such a hasnamus without return. As you well know, all I did while inside was challenge the statements at every dinner and event which was one of the reasons you pointed me out as a lunatic and a very uncomfortable person to be around. It was already too late and at the time, I did not have the clarity I have now, it just never sounded quite right.

It’s good to notice that at least in my case, what kept attracting me was his willingness to commit to Robert thinking that even if Girard wasn’t that bright; he at least had the intention to hold someone who was. It was his trust and love what inspired me for many years.

Girard is in love with the love that members have for him. Who wouldn’t be? It feeds that half personality that he’s taken such pains to develop. This beautiful energy of trust and love that most of us had for Robert and Girard, and in the lack of those two, the respect and in the lack of that, the fear to confront them, is what this whole set up thrives on. It could be and and and.

“In my own case, for example, being intellectually centered, it is not uncommon for me to know something is true long before I am able to perceive that truth directly.

—— What he is actually doing is manipulating members so that you imitate him who is the model and are willing to take down your guard and believe that the Fellowship is legitimate without verifying it. That is, that Robert is a Conscious being for that is the only stone on which the whole of the Fellowship has crystallized.

G: For a long time, I inner considered about speaking from such knowledge – after all, isn’t it lying to speak about things you haven’t verified?
——– For how long love? Can you remember when you still had a conscience?

G: From one angle, this may be true, but it is also true that it is one thing to speak about things imagining you have verified them and quite another to speak about them knowing you have not but with the certainty that they are true nevertheless.

———– So here he is implying that the things members know are in imagination while the things they don’t know they can still have the certainty that they are true.

G: This is where faith comes in.
———–This is not the System that does not function of Faith but on verification. (This letter was written in 1991 and he had already deviated that far by then).

G. To me, faith is having the courage to stand up for what you are sure is true even when your level of being at that time is not sufficient to experience or perceive that truth directly.

———Members simply don’t have the being so don’t give opposite ‘I’s. (Do you still have to pretend that everything Robert says is true because their theory is that even if it is a blatant lie, you are not supposed to disturb the energy of the moment? You just need to stay present and agree?)

G. In doing this, we are preparing the machine to accept the literally inexplicable understanding which will come from higher centers when they manifest.

———Robert’s innumerable abuses! …Literally inexplicable understanding from higher centers!!!

I can’t help laughing. It’s so obvious!

G: “We are also generating the necessary friction for our struggle.”

——– That we are to bear with, for three or four lifetimes!

Richard, William, Lorraine, Judith and all those of you who think you are in the hands of Conscious men, allow yourselves to look carefully at what you see.

If I did not care for you or Girard, do you think I’d be wasting my time trying to get you out of hell? How much more obvious do you want it? You can pick any page of any part of any of Girard’s books, which is what I’ve been doing, and you’ll find the blatant abuse of Reason.

I know Girard has a girlfriend and is more than happy with the perspective. That is good, I’m happy for him that he is not alone. Hopefully she will be strong enough to continue confronting him with the absurdity. Unfortunately it looks like none of us were. We were too brainwashed to question him while we lived with him. We tried to live up to it all, at our own cost.

Would someone or somebody warn that poor woman of what she’s getting into? Someone tried to warn me about how bad a husband he was but never questioned the School or Robert, which for me was the issue. If Robert was legitimate, we just needed to help each other and Girard perhaps had nothing else, but he had the love, the love… I thought and that was enough for me.

It’s different now, you people in there, don’t be so irresponsible to allow a new ignorant and innocent woman get entangled into this mess without warning.

Do you know what it is like to be touched when no one is there?
The hand that stretches out looking for someone with eyes that can’t follow.
To love the meat? And no matter how much you love it, to be nothing but meat? Pure, crude sex without the eyes but a look that came from beyond, that strange look that particular men get when they are imagining women that they cannot touch?

A decoration at the table of the hasnamus? Like each one of the boys who are but decorations at the Galleria?

What keeps you from seeing it? Do you need to see how meat eats meat to know when there is no love?

Would you have to watch Robert peeing and being peeid on by the boys to understand the degree to which he’s gone where no reason can follow?

It’s strange that no one understands that he is in fact suffering more than anybody else. He just doesn’t know how to stop it, like everybody else. They are trapped in their own labyrinth trying to put more flowers to cover the stench.

How many more flowers are you going to put on it this week Daily Cardiac? Where is your morbid pleasure? What is it that you really enjoy? What do you get off on? I dare you tell us, what is it that you love? You could not say it could you? You’ve lost the ability to love.

Is it the frigidity what keeps you going? The iceberg that keeps everyone in place wondering when, when will we ever move? feel? Think? When will such wonders not just be the sacred words of the Sequence but the life we are longing for?

Or the silence? That look and that silence in each of our faces trying to avoid each other’s eyes so that they don’t give our thoughts away, our sadness, our loneliness?

What turns you on about this play?

Your conviction that you’ll wake up and nobody else? That all those idiots acting like idiots are not you, that you are special and that you are just pretending that you believe the gold alchemy pantomime but you know better yourself? Year, after year, after year, because you forgot what year it began?

139. James Mclemore - November 25, 2008

DC said:
“While it’s admirable to leave and expose a cult; there is an obvious stigma attached to a seeker leaving a conscious school.”
**
(First – great post ton – it was the above WARNING I think that especially stood out for me.)

What an amazing idea that gave birth to that statement by DC. And what a cowardly and malicious thing for a so-called spiritual leader to use to try and frighten and trap people with.

DC: Do you really think people are posting here so that it ‘lets them off the hook’ and releases some ‘obvious stigma’? OMG.
If you think that you have not really read and heard the voices on this blog. That is a statement and idea that seems so far from any truth that it is just incredible to read it. Now I am sure that many may have entertained a few of those fearful thoughts before they finally took the step, but once one gets even a little distance, I suspect it becomes clear for most anyone, that they have made the right decision. You are projecting my friend. I don’t think it is anything that anyone not under the influence of Burton’s fear tactics would ever even think about. I can still remember when I heard him say (I will have to paraphrase) ‘if someone were to meet a conscious school and then lose it, it would be better for them had they never been born’. Somewhere deep down inside I knew when I heard that, that I would be leaving some day. I knew something was wrong. It just seemed like such a cruel and fearful hook to try to imbed into people. When you truly care about people, even if they do something that you sincerely think is not in their best interest, you still wish them well. Leaving aside, of course, someone putting themselves in imminent physical danger; whether they are your child going off in a direction different from what you wished for them, or perhaps someone you are in a committed relationship with who decides they are leaving you to take a different direction. At the end of the day, if you ever really cared about them and loved them, you will wish them well.
In his own words, Burton said the only thing he missed and wished he had back was his Ming furniture. I am going to guess that he cares for no one, and it is just sad that there are wonderful people still in the fof that think he really does.
To sum up, since it does not look like anyone here is worried about your ‘obvious stigma’, I am going to go with door number 1, and say that people here are doing the admirable thing by leaving and exposing a cult.

140. unoanimo - November 25, 2008

deleted at the author’s request

141. Yesri Baba - November 25, 2008

135 Jomo

Yes! One of two, and Lacuna and I are really pissed that you got all the smart genes.

(this is funny for two or more reasons)

142. Daily Cardiac - November 25, 2008

Jomo Piñata – 119:

“I agree it would be time consuming. And if you are completely unwilling to challenge the views you hold after having their weaknesses pointed out to you in a forthright and honest fashion, you are probably correct that discussion is pointless. So far as I can tell, you are content with superficial skirmishes, rather than any kind of sustained exchange that might lead to the reexamination of your position.”

Regarding keeping the last thread open for discussion – the above is your take on things. Here is mine. We have different aims, different styles, a different relationship to words, and a different belief system.

Words don’t just flow out if me; it takes considerable effort to compose and organize my thoughts for a medium like this. Knowing that when I write something I try to structure it so that it can stand on it’s own. I don’t ever think of sequels, or round two or three. No one believes me but it’s true that I would rather be doing something else at this moment besides writing on the blog.

In all likelihood you are intellectually centered; possibly the queen of the center, so I think this format is more your cup of tea.

Then there is my aim. My aim is not to engage ex members in order to out point them, or get any kind of upper hand in a one on one matching of wits. And it is highly unlikely they will cause me to abandon my verifications due to some logic, or information they present.

I see ex members posts as something to facilitate my own writing about a particular topic, not to convince them of my view point.

If I say something to my own satisfaction, say it in a way it can be understood by someone who may be neutral; possibly not a member or ex member, or possibly a member who is wavering, but really wants to remain a member, that’s all I’m interested in really.

In the 20,000 or so submissions on this forum I don’t think there has been one ex member that ever conceded to an FoF supporter that what they wrote was in principle true. You have gone further than most when you say something like – I can see how you arrived at that, but it is not correct. On the other hand there have been some wild and reckless comments by ex members that have gone unchallenged by the sitting majority.

When I write something I know five or six individuals will be composing a rebuttal almost instantaneously.

Regarding post 32 – again let me say; I am willing to let it stand. If I wrote back and rebutted your points I’d make a few more of my own and you would rebut them yet again. Words trump words. It’s not important for me to have the last word. I am content to let our exchange stand, or if you like you can give my comments another going over. I enjoy some of your humor, enjoy hearing some of the information stored in your vast knowledge banks.

I Also happen to think you are often limited (not due to any lack or intelligence, but due to your pre-existing attitudes) when it comes to understanding that in our normal “waking” state there is a ceiling we eventually bump our heads into and that is not the end of knowledge or understanding, it is the beginning, the floor, of another brand of knowledge or understanding. And the new floor trumps the old ceiling.

143. Yesri Baba - November 25, 2008

Lacuna,

Building dozens of homes up in the sticks, leaving jobs and maxing out credit cards based on predictions that never came to pass made from omens taken from licensce plates and street signs.

People with barely a pot to piss in chipping in to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a statue of a naked dude from ancient Italy.

A room full of people gazing up at a video screen trying to find four toes and six fingers in a box like a patient in a dentist office looking through a ‘Highlights’ magazine.

Directing the search is a guy who likes to suck copious amount of cock, get peed on and has a picture on his ceiling of a dude with a raging chubbie.

Dinners with same strange fellow who tells stories of being visited upon by all sorts of natural disasters created just for his inconvenience.

People walking around repeating a strange mantra over and over to enable them to be where they are. If they do this long enough (perhaps many lifetimes), they are told, they will poop out a little soul into the universe. If they don’t and decide this is retarded they will be damned forever and be eaten by the moon (this brings up a recurring question I have- what feeds the moons of Saturn and Jupiter, some combination of ammonia and Sunny Delight, or are they grown enough to fend for themselves? Well… I am sure someone knows…).

I could go on but …

Lacuna! Charlie Manson? When I read your shit I’m reading Charles Manson.

Come home bro.

144. Yesri Baba - November 25, 2008

“This is where faith comes in. To me, faith is having the courage to stand up for what you are sure is true even when your level of being at that time is not sufficient to experience or perceive that truth directly. In doing this, we are preparing the machine to accept the literally inexplicable understanding which will come from higher centers when they manifest. We are also generating the necessary friction for our struggle.”

Holy shit! Did anyone buy this piece of crap for any other reason than to keep it on the sink in case the toilet paper ran out?

145. fofblogmoderator - November 25, 2008

137 is newly moderated

146. Golb - November 25, 2008

Golb; I understand that you’re used to quantity equaling quality, though, that’s just not it, is it? That you’re reading it in spite of your own ‘important calculations’ pretty much says it all.

—————

That was just a quick answer to clarify for everyone a quantity statement by veramente. No Problem, yes?

Thanks,
Golb

147. elena - November 25, 2008

Fellowship Members including Daily Cardiac:

How many more flowers are you going to put on it this week? Where is your morbid pleasure? What is it that you really enjoy? What do you get off on? I dare you tell us, what is it that you love in the Fellowship of Friends? You could not say it could you? You’ve lost the ability to love.

Answer the questions, don’t just babble about form!

148. veramente - November 25, 2008

142 CC
In the 20,000 or so submissions on this forum I don’t think there has been one ex member that ever conceded to an FoF supporter that what they wrote was in principle true. You have gone further than most when you say something like – I can see how you arrived at that, but it is not correct. On the other hand there have been some wild and reckless comments by ex members that have gone unchallenged by the sitting majority.

When I write something I know five or six individuals will be composing a rebuttal almost instantaneously.
————————–
DC, I’ll be one of the instantaneous responders again:

I do not know if you are honest or full of shit.
If you are honest then I will call you a conscious sheep, if not then I see your ability to distort everything into some kind of “logic” that resembles the most potent lies.
Good luck in wasting your life and helping others do the same, or even best: I hope you wake up soon before it is too late.

149. Jomo Piñata - November 25, 2008

Lacuna Piñata:

Words don’t just flow out if me; it takes considerable effort to compose and organize my thoughts for a medium like this.

OK, I think this is an honest admission of your struggle.

Knowing that when I write something I try to structure it so that it can stand on it’s own. I don’t ever think of sequels, or round two or three.

What I understand you to say is, “it’s tough enough for me to participate in these exchanges at all, let alone to think my position through.” If that is what you are saying, I understand it. The thing is, oftentimes what you have communicated doesn’t stand on its own. I engage with you, not to take cheap shots at you, but to see if I can get you to recognize that you and only you have the power to break through some of the limitations that have been placed on how you think.

No one believes me but it’s true that I would rather be doing something else at this moment besides writing on the blog.

On the contrary, I believe you. I think you are uncomfortable in this whole set of dialogues on the blog because people are challenging what you believe. That you participate anyway is commendable.

In all likelihood you are intellectually centered; possibly the queen of the center, so I think this format is more your cup of tea.

I hope you will come to understand freedom does not come from stuffing people into little boxes, and that this is a type of perception that limits you, rather than frees you.

Then there is my aim.

You know, it has been my experience that some people, almost always people who have been part of some kind of Gurdjieff group, become insufferably pompous when speaking about their “aim.” (I am not saying you, necessarily, Lacuna Piñata.) These Gurdjieff-spouting individuals, usually male, offensively disregard or violate social rules and then assert that they are doing so because of their “aim.”

This goes a step farther in the Fellowship where people violate social or cultural rules or expectations and assert they are doing so because they are “resisting feminine dominance.” (Gag me with a spoon, Moon Unit. Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?) “Resisting feminine dominance” doesn’t give people the right to pee on the living room floor.

My aim is not to engage ex members in order to out point them, or get any kind of upper hand in a one on one matching of wits.

In other words, you’re not here for your love of verbal gamesmanship. OK, I accept that.

And it is highly unlikely they will cause me to abandon my verifications due to some logic, or information they present.

Ah, but hope springs eternal in the human breast. You have this mound of unidentified organic matter you describe as your “verifications.” My question to you is, have you ever examined what the process of “verification” entails? (Trick question. I know you haven’t. You just took it as it was offered and never looked at what went into it. Remember, so-called “work ideas” cannot be examined or analyzed. They can only be applied. Think there might be a problem with that regime?)

I see ex members posts as something to facilitate my own writing about a particular topic, not to convince them of my view point.

So, you are saying, you are not really here to engage with anyone, you just want to use their writing as a springboard. Lacuna Piñata, it sounds so solipsistic, so self-involved. (But maybe you are just following the exercise to limit your interaction with former students to a cordial hello.)

If I say something to my own satisfaction, say it in a way it can be understood by someone who may be neutral; possibly not a member or ex member, or possibly a member who is wavering, but really wants to remain a member, that’s all I’m interested in really.

You want to put your views out there in the hopes that someone on the fence will stay. That’s fine; I understand that view. There’s something you value in staying and you want to express that. Again, that’s fine. But if you are going to express that, I am going to encourage you to take a hard look at what you believe and what you value.

In the 20,000 or so submissions on this forum I don’t think there has been one ex member that ever conceded to an FoF supporter that what they wrote was in principle true. You have gone further than most when you say something like – I can see how you arrived at that, but it is not correct. On the other hand there have been some wild and reckless comments by ex members that have gone unchallenged by the sitting majority.

Sure, free-for-alls are all about wild and reckless comments. That’s the thing about freedom. No one is controlling it. And who’s to say what’s wild and reckless? I mean, bland reportage of facts in respect of Dick Cheese results in some pretty incredible statements.

When I write something I know five or six individuals will be composing a rebuttal almost instantaneously.

Yes. Most of them are not expecting a response. I write to you, expecting a response.

Regarding post 32 – again let me say; I am willing to let it stand. If I wrote back and rebutted your points I’d make a few more of my own and you would rebut them yet again.

It’s called debate. It’s part of living in a free society. If you don’t like debate, there are totalitarian societies where there are no debates. Like the Fellowship.

Words trump words. It’s not important for me to have the last word. I am content to let our exchange stand, or if you like you can give my comments another going over.

But you see, Brother Lacuna, it’s not about words. It’s not about winning a debate. It’s about whether you can be led to see about yourself what many of us see about you now: that you are carrying around in your cognitive apparatus all these blind spots. We are (at least I am) swinging methodically at your Piñata full of lacunae to see if we can bring it down and give you the rest of your mind back. You don’t even go so far as to say, what Piñata full of lacunae? You ignore your own blind spots even when people point them out to you, tie ropes around them, and swing clubs at them! One gets the impression you know that they exist, but you’d rather knit cozies for them than lose them and think with your whole mind!

I Also happen to think you are often limited (not due to any lack or intelligence, but due to your pre-existing attitudes) when it comes to understanding that in our normal “waking” state there is a ceiling we eventually bump our heads into and that is not the end of knowledge or understanding, it is the beginning, the floor, of another brand of knowledge or understanding. And the new floor trumps the old ceiling.

This, again, is the tired Gurdjieff/Ouspensky mantra about sleep. Of course there are many extraordinary cognitive states in which whole vistas of human experience and the universe open up. Lacuna Piñata, you don’t live in those states. Neither does Dick Cheese. You don’t have better access to them inside the Yezidi Circle. You have just been persuaded to believe that you do.

150. Daily Cardiac - November 25, 2008

Unoanimo – 139:

“DC, please let me know when you find The List of people who do not have mice… THAT I want to see.”

Maybe you want to re-post that one you had removed.

151. fofblogmoderator - November 25, 2008

#150-

Hey DC how were you able to copy and paste uno’s posting after it was deleted? Do you make hard copies of the blog for yourself?

152. Walter J. Tanner - November 25, 2008

For Dragon:

“The question that remains in my mind is: Why are/were those teachers with a GENUINE LINEAGE to Gurdjieff or Ouspensky in the FOF? Are/were they TEACHERS?”

I guess I still don’t get the question, you would need to ask those people themselves why they were/are in the FoF. I was just saying that the FOF does/did have lots of members who had previously worked with various Foundations, Centres and Teachers who have a stronger claim to a “Gurdjieff Lineage” than Robert does. I met a woman in Nice who had met Gurdjieff. That old Egyptian guy had worked with Frank Lloyd Wright’s wife, who I believe was under Ouspensky. Many FOF students know the movements, etc.

I talking to all these people, it seemed clear to me that Robert’s teaching (in the nineties) was an emotionally-reflected (or centered) take on the basic Gurdjieff teachings. The meetings and workgroups operate in generally the same way, with a similar ethos, etc. I’ve heard other posters here claim that the Fellowship is in no way like any other Gurdjieff/Ouspensky group, but they were not able to present any evidence. In the last year alone I have approached two Fourth Way groups here in San Francisco, one of them is the Gurdjieff Foundation that was run by Pentland, the other an off-shoot. I cannot overemphasize how similar both these groups were to the Fellowship in terms of how actually teaching (mostly through meetings and/or workgroups) happened.

And to Aline: Lots of people have become conscious through the Fellowship — they just all left.

153. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - November 25, 2008

Jomo: That’s an evil looking clown. It’s scaring me. Meow!

154. Jomo Piñata - November 26, 2008

The message is, I only want to talk to you if you are willing to look evil in the eye! 😉

155. brucelevy - November 26, 2008

I just ran into a friend who said they were waiting on a line at the OH store the other day. There were two members who were discussing the “terrible things” that were being posted on the blog about the FOF and RB. He has posted here and was not a member of the cult, but had experience with a different cult in the area. He turned around and stated (paraphrased) ” I think much that is posted on the blog makes for a fantastic and useful read.” and then asked seriously (and facetiously) if they knew anyone in the group (he knew they were members). They responded by not acknowledging his existence in any way. As long as one’s invested to that degree nothing can penetrate.
Which leads me to express my astonishment that the blog still deigns to engage Mr. Straw Man Jerk Off after seeing, for such a long time, that nothing that is said here deters this moron from his intellectual self stroking.

156. Jomo Piñata - November 26, 2008

They responded by not acknowledging his existence in any way. As long as one’s invested to that degree nothing can penetrate.

I like you Bruce and I respect you, but I think you are wrong. You can’t tell what got in just by looking at contemporaneous behavior. If I thought Lacuna Piñata was a shill, I wouldn’t waste my time, but I think he’s an apologist. And people who hold their beliefs sincerely sometimes can be influenced. That’s the cool thing about sincerity: it can be stronger than, and outlive, erroneous beliefs.

157. elena - November 26, 2008

Bruce, that’s the best news I’ve heard in a long time. They are actually acknowledging that the Fellows… I mean the blog is actually saying terrible things about them? That they even talk about it is good news because they’ve been trying to pretend that it doesn’t exist for almost two years. That is, the real innies.

I’m exhausted with the subject and bored dead but if that’s the good news, I might as well continue for a while.

It would be good to have you around. The few of us participating are going to dry out without Laura, her music and your sharpness, even if it hits me just as hard.

If there are even sixty people reading, it would be good to hear you speak. I’ll make you a deal: for every post a new writer sends in, I’ll write two less!! and half as long!

And you don’t have to say a word about the FOF, you can write about anything, after all, there’s more to life than the FOF!

If you think you don’t write well, that’s bullshit. Communicating is not about writing well but about having something to say and the most moving posts have been those from people that had just that.

I often think that I’m ready to let go of the blog but it’ll be very difficult to let go of all of you now that some communication is flowing. If you all disappear for a second time out of life just like you did in the Fellowship, ….. it’ll be a great loss.

You are the friends I never had inside and it is a pleasure to meet each one of you, no matter how much friction is also involved. It would’ve been more fun if it had been in flesh and blood, but virtual flesh and blood is not that bad either!

158. elena - November 26, 2008

Jomo Piñata: “That’s the cool thing about sincerity: it can be stronger than, and outlive, erroneous beliefs.”

Beautiful! Thank you.

159. Wouldnt You Like To Know - November 26, 2008

50. Old Fish in the Sea:

Nice story in your post at 50/56.

Here is another story.

What became of the doctor at the clinic:

Once there was a doctor who died and went to heaven.

You could recognize the doctor because of the long white lab coat with the caduceus symbol on it, the stethescope, and the laryngoscopic exam mirror on the forehead. (You know, one of those old fashioned concave round mirrors with a hole in the center that doctors used to us to examine the throat or nose. Find below links to example of it.)
1) Examination of the Nasal Passages by means of the Rhinoscope and Head Mirror:

From:
THE PEOPLE’S COMMON SENSE MEDICAL ADVISER IN PLAIN ENGLISH: OR, MEDICINE SIMPLIFIED.
BY R.V. PIERCE, M.D. pg 480.
2) Laryngoscopic Exam Mirror:

3) Laryngoscopic Exam:

(Sorry about that deviation.)

So, the doctor goes to heaven and outside the pearly gate there is a line of the newly dead waiting to get in. The doctor gets in the line and waits. Then when they are half way to the gate, the doctor realizes, ‘Hey, I’m a doctor; doctors don’t have to wait [they’re not patient]. The doctor gets out of line and goes up to the pearly gate and knocks. Saint Peter, keeper of the gate, comes out and says, ‘Can I help you?’ The doctor states that they are a doctor and points out the lab coat/caduceus, stethescope, and laryngoscopic exam mirror on the forehead, to prove it.

Saint Peter, kindly, explains to the doctor that in heaven everyone is equal and treated the same and sends the doctor back to the line. Now, the doctor has lost the place in line from where they exited and must go to the end of the line and start over again.

When the doctor, again, gets about half way to the gate, where he last got out of line, a diminutive handsome jovial gentleman comes scurrying by wearing a long white lab coat with the caduceus symbol on it, the stethescope, and the laryngoscopic exam mirror on the forehead. (They looked a little like Menahem Pressler, the pianist. Below is link to a picture in case you were wondering what he looked like.)

That person quickly passed the entire line, in a hurried manner like the white rabbit in Alice in Wonderland or Through the Looking Glass. At the pearly gate, Saint Peter immediately opens the gate and lets them in. The doctor is amazed by what he sees; obviously a doctor getting special treatment and going right in without waiting.

So, the doctor gets out of line, again, and goes up to the pearly gate and knocks. Saint Peter, comes out and says, ‘Can I help you?’ The doctor states that they are a doctor and points out the lab coat/caduceus, stethescope, and laryngoscopic exam mirror on the forehead, to prove it, and that there was this obvious doctor that just scurried by the line and was let in without waiting!

Saint Peter, kindly, calls the doctor aside, so others would not hear, and with his index finger on his upper lip says, ‘Shhhushhh, that was no doctor, that was god, he was only playing doctor.

The doctor then goes back to the end of the line and starts over again.

This is what is called ‘Eternal Recurrence.’ The next time the doctor is half way to the pearly gate, something else will cause them to get out of line and speak to Saint Peter and go to the end of the line again to start over. There is always one of these major tests on the Way that the spiritual aspirant must excel over to break the chain of recurrence. If your teacher gives you a task like, for instance: stop chasing after the young men to have sex with them – and that test is not passed, there is crystallized recurrence. (Robert Earl Burton’s teacher, Alex Horn, gave him that task. He failed the test and went on to found his own school based on chasing after young men to have sex with them – Robert Earl Burton’s personal sex cult. If you don’t like the rules of the game, leave and create your own court where you can make up the rules that please you.)

Here is what Ouspensky’s Fourth Way says at its end:

‘If we do nothing in this life, the next life will be just the same, or there will be slight variations but no positive change. If recurrence exists, we cannot change it. There is only one thing we can change: we can try to awake and hope to remain awake. If we have to come back, we cannot stop it. We are in a train, the train is going somewhere. All we can do is to pass the time in the train differently – do something useful or spend it quite uselessly.’

Here is what Ouspensky’s Strange Life of Ivan Osokin says near its end:

‘And now I have to decide what answer to give the magician. This is new. This did not happen before. And then, about the devil, what did he say about this disagreeable gentleman with horns and hoofs? There was something very interesting about it, but I must confess that I did not listen properly when he was speaking. I must ask him next time.

“Now the idea is that I must do something to prevent things from happening to me in the same way again. The magician said that in some way the devil is mixed up in this. How funny! I always thought that we could do our worst without any help from the devil… So the only thing to do is to give myself up to the magician. Strange! I have heard of such things before, but they always seemed to me to be invented and I saw no meaning or purpose in them. Now it appears that they actually happen and that there is much meaning in them and a very definite purpose. I know it is silly, but there is something in me that is a little afraid of the magician although at the same time I know that I am in a privileged position. I have nothing to be afraid of because I have nothing to lose and things cannot be worse than they are now.”‘

160. George Miller - November 26, 2008

Hi all

What is the aim of the Petition?

161. shaman - November 26, 2008

Walter J. Tanner said:

I talking to all these people, it seemed clear to me that Robert’s teaching (in the nineties) was an emotionally-reflected (or centered) take on the basic Gurdjieff teachings. The meetings and workgroups operate in generally the same way, with a similar ethos, etc. I’ve heard other posters here claim that the Fellowship is in no way like any other Gurdjieff/Ouspensky group, but they were not able to present any evidence. In the last year alone I have approached two Fourth Way groups here in San Francisco, one of them is the Gurdjieff Foundation that was run by Pentland, the other an off-shoot. I cannot overemphasize how similar both these groups were to the Fellowship in terms of how actually teaching (mostly through meetings and/or workgroups) happened.

And to Aline: Lots of people have become conscious through the Fellowship — they just all left.

Right. I fully agree with that last statement.

162. veramente - November 26, 2008

157 Elena

I often think that I’m ready to let go of the blog but it’ll be very difficult to let go of all of you now that some communication is flowing. If you all disappear for a second time out of life just like you did in the Fellowship, ….. it’ll be a great loss.

You are the friends I never had inside and it is a pleasure to meet each one of you, no matter how much friction is also involved. It would’ve been more fun if it had been in flesh and blood, but virtual flesh and blood is not that bad either!
—————————

Elena the blog needs to go on, it seems the only true voice that is public and out there for anyone who has eyes to read it.
It amazes me that DC and others could think that many of the comments here about RB and the FOF are wild and reckless.
Truth hurts so much that some people cannot face it?

Thank you for your posts and ability to communicate difficult things, you have a very creative mind and so much passion.
I am sure you are on the way of finding a beautiful path where you can share yourself and help others from a place of healing.

PS: I have been missing Laura too, glad Bruce is posting again.
It’s good to have Unoanimo, Aline, Ton, Dragon and many others,we help each other’s open the blindspots.

163. Crouching Tiger - November 26, 2008

Walter.
“I talking to all these people, it seemed clear to me that Robert’s teaching (in the nineties) was an emotionally-reflected (or centered) take on the basic Gurdjieff teachings. The meetings and workgroups operate in generally the same way, with a similar ethos, etc. I’ve heard other posters here claim that the Fellowship is in no way like any other Gurdjieff/Ouspensky group, but they were not able to present any evidence. In the last year alone I have approached two Fourth Way groups here in San Francisco, one of them is the Gurdjieff Foundation that was run by Pentland, the other an off-shoot. I cannot overemphasize how similar both these groups were to the Fellowship in terms of how actually teaching (mostly through meetings and/or workgroups) happened.”

I don’t know how recent your ‘evidence’ is Walter, but it doesn’t match my current experience. There are certain cosmetic similarities in the method of teaching, but the understanding of Gurdjieff’s ‘system’ is very different to anything in the Fellowship that I came across. The difference have probably gotten bigger over the years – when were you ‘in’, about 20 years ago?…

I’ve tried to point out some of the basic differences in previous posts, so I won’t repeat them here. And I never met one fellowship student who knew anything about the Movements, although there is a great curiosity about them.

This is actually quite typical fellowship thinking, assuming it can ‘steal’ thoughts and ideas from elsewhere and make them its own with relative ease. In fact it can’t, any more than the research octave was capable of distilling the essence of thousands of years of understanding in a one-hour meeting. More like a tourist visit.

Presumably you only made one or two visits to those places in SF you mention, so maybe something along the same lines was happening there…??

164. dragon - November 26, 2008

To Cardiac Remedy and the FOF members who are in the state of “mental osmosis” with the BLOG (they don’t read it, they don’t see it, they don’t hit it):

When DC is asked to defend his view of the self-authenticating witness of the FOF, he cannot sufficiently answer the questions (why could/ should he?) and must resort to saying that the propositional content of this knowledge is “vague” or “ambiguous” (is he still in the development, the esoteric FOF puberty?) and turns the tables on the Blog.

If DC (most likely instructed by one of his “selfs” to “endure”, to “observe”, and to “direct” the Blog, the slipshod attempt of a FOF-controlled “SHILL”  but just in his mind) thinks this inner witness trumps all evidence and arguments to the contrary, which he claims, then even if he cannot sufficiently defend his notion of the inner witness of the FOF, it doesn’t matter to him.

He claims he knows the traineeship and the knowledge of the FOF/Robert Earl Burton is true irrespective of all the arguments and evidence to the contrary, even his arguments on behalf of the inner witness of the FOF!

That is, even if he cannot sufficiently defend the arguments on behalf of this inner witness, he still maintains he has it, and because he has it, he can believe despite the fact that he cannot sufficiently argue for it and despite all evidence to the contrary.

This seems to be nothing more nor less than “Epistemological Solipsism”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

when it comes to the numerous BOGUS “discussion bubbles” with DC (And the “shill-helpers” like GOLBBLOG  I think they are “brothers in brain”).

When DC weakens it could seem to be despite all “Girard material concerning the BLOG” worth for the FOF to waste “student resources” because they are “building up arms” of the UNEXPECTED.

Their fear is what is behind the “bubbly BLOG surface”?

The lawyers, psychiatrists etc. of the FOF are busy to pay for every “abuse” because they shun the bubonic plague of the PUBLIC (and the inner circle the running dry of the golden MONEYSOURCE of Babel)
That’s the reason for doctoring reports on WIKIPEDIA etc.

Also interesting: “Solipsism syndrome” is a state of mind in which a person begins to feel that everything is a dream and is not real.
Some environments are conducive to producing solipsism syndrome. This state of mind can be easily produced in an environment where everything is artificial, where everything is like THEATER STAGE and where there is nothing beyond the theater stage and beyond an individual’s control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism_syndrome

DC claims to have access (the material of the FOF) to the evidence but even with this access he cannot know with certainty his faith is correct.

But DC is no “real shill” because DC FEELS the deep psychological insight:

I am nothing more or less than Robert’s/Girard’s TOOL (I am not yet turned into a SOUL worth having the confidence of the inner circle and this drop of bitterness poisons his soul).

DC it is exclusively YOUR BROTHER “JOMO”, who remains neither Robert nor Girard.

You are a human being with a soul but NOT for the FOF “core-heart” circle.

In Germany children love a fairytale “das kalte Herz” (the cold heart) written by Wilhelm Hauff, listen to the fairytale DC and think it over…

165. Draco - November 26, 2008

56/156 Jomo Pinata
“If I thought Lacuna Piñata was a shill, I wouldn’t waste my time, but I think he’s an apologist. And people who hold their beliefs sincerely sometimes can be influenced. That’s the cool thing about sincerity: it can be stronger than, and outlive, erroneous beliefs.”

Yes, I agree that he’s an apologist but I have reservations about his sincerity. I believe that he is sincere in valuing the Fellowship, but he isn’t sincere in the way that he presents his arguments. He has resorted to all kinds of tricky pseudologic and deceptions in the cause of trying to “win the argument”. Denying that cults exist, insisting on the relativity of experience only when it serves to dismiss the claims of ex-members, ignoring critiques of his thinking, using historical parallels to justify FOF practices without following up the consequences of the comparison, etc. etc. etc.

166. ton - November 26, 2008

bruce 155,
good to hear your voice again. i go back and forth over this issue — thanks for raising the question. recently there was some discussion here (renald? et al) about the futility of ‘pushing back’ — i believe the argument was that ‘pushing back’ inadvertently makes the opposing position ‘stronger’ or at least more intransigent… i think the metaphor was a donkey digging in it’s heels… (the image went through some interesting permutations through reinterpretation). as for the semantics of the situation, that’s beside the point, i think the posters here who act as defenders, apologists and shills for the FOF (call them what you will, to me the role is the same, different names for a similar function)… those who post on behalf of or in defense of the FOF cult, imo serve a useful purpose — they expose the cult’s ‘thinking’ (read: brainwashing/mind control ). by ‘pushing back’ it’s unrealistic to expect a spontaneous conversion, that’s not the point but by pushing back, the FOF cult mentality continues to expose itself for what it is, a house of cards constructed for the purpose of concealing the socio-pathology at it’s core which continues to draw to it and create other sociopaths.

an individual can walk into any public library or internet cafe’ etc, anywhere in the world with internet access, and log onto this site. with that in mind, revealing the truth, unraveling the cult-think and exposing the cult for what it is, making it a matter for public record, this is reason enough to continue the process of ‘pushing back.’ with regularity an FOF turd enters this public forum to obfuscate and bury the truth under a pile of denials and bullshit/ rationalizations. for some of the readers here this affront elicits a degree of ‘righteous indignation,’ in which case i think it can be ‘healthy’ to exercise freedom of expression as an act of outrage against the continuing FOF mind fuck.

e.g.

“While it’s admirable to leave and expose a cult; there is an obvious stigma attached to a seeker leaving a conscious school.”

WARNING:
THE SO-CALLED ‘STIGMA ATTACHED TO LEAVING A CONSCIOUS SCHOOL’ IS ONE OF THE MOST EFFECTIVE MIND CONTROL TOOLS THIS CULT UTILIZES. BELIEF IN THIS PARTICULAR ‘IMPLANT’ IN THE BRAINWASHING PROCESS IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE ‘INVISIBLE FENCE’ THAT IS ERECTED BY THE INMATES/SHEEP THEMSELVES. THE CULTIST / BELIEVERS SERVE AS INCUBATORS OF MEMES LIKE THIS AND IT’S THEIR OWN COLLECTIVE AND MUTUALLY REINFORCING BELIEF SYSTEM THAT KEEPS THEM THEIR PSYCHOLOGICAL AND EMOTIONAL CHAINS.
——————-

167. Draco - November 26, 2008

Crouching Tiger,

I can see that you’re finding membership of the Gurdjieff Foundation very productive and satisfying, but you’re beginning to sound like every other Gurdjieffian I’ve come across on the Internet. There is a strong authoritarian element in the Gurdjieff Societies/Foundations/Institutes, and I would advise you to guard yourself against groupthink. Sarcasm and dismissisveness are typical characteristics of people in the Foundations. Join the Gurdjieff Forum list, which is largely populated by Foundation members, if you want to see that demonstrated. http://www.promart.com/gf/GF_Home.html

Dozens of FOF members past and present joined the FOF after being members of the Gurdjieff Foundations. There have been at least two movements teachers in the FOF. In the 1990s Robert Burton caved in to the requests and for a while allowed movements classes in the Prytaneion. When another movements teacher attempted to give classes several years later, RB blocked it when he found out and told people to learn ballet if they wanted to learn dancing.

So, the movements aren’t part of the Fellowship teaching, and RB is hostile to them, but some FOF students knew the movemens and could teach them.

BTW, I spoke to a member of the SF GF who was an ex-FOFer and she remarked how similar the GF students were to fOF students, even dressing similarly. I don’t see any signs that the Foundations are a cult in anything like the way the FOF is, but they are a bit secretive, hierarchical, a bit rigid, and the occasional group leader (Pentland for example) is reputed to have been a little too eager for the company of his female pupils –as the current NY GF president Frank Sinclair put it, “his exercising of some old feudal prerogatives that shall be nameless.” (Without Benefit of Clergy, p.212)

168. ton - November 26, 2008

keeps them IN their psyco-emotional chains.

169. lauralupa - November 26, 2008

“We are as forlorn as children lost in the wood. When you stand in front of me an look at me, what do you know of the grief that is in me and what do I know of yours? And if I were to cast myself down before you and tell you, what more would you know about me that you know about Hell when someone tells you it is hot and dreadful? For that reason alone we human beings ought to stand before one another as reverently, as reflectively, as lovingly, as we would before the entrance to Hell.”
Franz Kafka

oh, how the boat drifts
oh, how the tides shift
i lie my head in
i hear it coming
oh, how the wave breaks on your body

look, how the lights lit
look how it’s tone shifts
it’s doing my head in
we row, we row, we row towards it
oh, how the wave breaks on your body

Múm
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ_x9LbttnQ&feature=related

170. Mick Danger - November 26, 2008

RE: 155 – Terrible Things
Self-proclaimed “Goddess-in-a-man’s-body”.
I wasn’t the one that made Bobby a cocksucker –
he’s a self-made poor excuse for a human being.

171. aline - November 26, 2008

Yesterday I watched the documentary “Bowling for Columbine” by Michael Moore (on the authorized port of firearms in the USA): very instructive to identify some specific features to America (or at least more developed there than anywhere else): to rely only on themselves to protect themselves, fear of others, fear of the difference, fear of imaginary situations, paranoia.
What appears in the documentary is that people react according to a potential horrible reality that could catch them up. They don’t want to deal with reality, they consider it as a threat. they isolate themselves.
Does it remind you anything?

172. Walter J. Tanner - November 26, 2008

Crouching Tiger:

Robert’s teaching no longer resembles Gurdjieff or Ouspensky’s teaching. I recognized from the beginning (I joined in 1992, was kicked out in 1999) that the Fellowship was drifting into School for a Man #2 territory, that is a school of devotion, either to Robert or to an anthropomorphized “Influence C.”

The latest descent into the “Sequence” and bad art interpretation only showed this to be true, as the Fourth Way System was finally abandoned and Robert’s ridiculous whims and fancies enthroned as the chief steward of the Fellowship.

There were also very damaging doctrinal heresies that Robert seems to have introduced from the very beginning: the biggest of these, and the one I was constantly railing against from the inside, is the central place of “suffering.” Rarely mentioned was Gurdjieff’s observation that the last thing people will sacrifice is their suffering. My instructions to observe and interrogate suffering through the concepts of identification, imagination and negative emotions was always passed over in silence. Nearly all suffering falls into one or more of these categories, and the Fourth Way provides lots of exercises for working with each of those categories. But one’s suffering, especially in a school of devotion, becomes the currency by which the ego can measure its commitment to the object of devotion (Robert or Influence C), so any work on oneself that would make suffering go away had to be ignored.

But this is a probably minor doctrinal points that an honest worker can ferret out. All other 4th Way organizations I’ve come across use the canon of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky’s writings (some don’t include Ouspensky, but do include other first-generation students of Gurdjieff) and the meeting with angle format, along with some kind of third-line work that also provides space for the second line.

I’d be happy to let you know, by private e-mail, who knows about the movements. Robert, of course, outlawed them, but now some of those people are out of the school. Just drop me a line. I lived at Renaissance the summer of ’95 and returned to Apollo ’96 to ’98. I was very active and met a lot of people, I also travelled the world as a teacher and so met many foreign students.

In terms of ‘stealing,’ Ouspensky realized that “ideas do not survive without heads,” and that’s why a “school” was so important to him. The Fellowship adopted the beliefs and practices of an already existing religio-spiritual movement, weighted down right from the beginning with Robert’s misunderstandings and prejudices. You can call that stealing if you want, some American Indians are unhappy that New Agers have co-opted certain or their rituals, some Jews are upset that some Protestant denominations re-create Jewish rituals, I say to them all look at it as a sign that your religion has a legitimacy and authority that someone else wishes to copy.

Religious Cat Burglar, walter.tanner@gmail.com

173. Yesri Baba - November 26, 2008

165 WJT

“There were also very damaging doctrinal heresies that Robert seems to have introduced from the very beginning: the biggest of these, and the one I was constantly railing against from the inside, is the central place of “suffering.” Rarely mentioned was Gurdjieff’s observation that the last thing people will sacrifice is their suffering.”

——————–*

It is mind boggling how many ideas of the 4th way (which is what one would assume is what someone joining the FOF is interesting in studying) had the ‘Get Stupid’ cone of silence dropped over them and morphed into just about the opposite.

Hows about: If a man tells you he is conscious run from him as fast as you can! This morphs into: If a man tells you he is conscious worship every idiotic drop of spittle spraying from his cum coated lips.

174. fofblogmoderator - November 26, 2008

159, 160, 161, 164, 165, 167 & 169 are newly moderated
it’s been a busy day!

175. Across the River - November 26, 2008

161
ton

IMHO the most effective responses to DC and company are the consistant references to how and why what he says has no merit at this point because he’s brainwashed. THANK YOU for continuing.

I believe those people in the store totally got the message that they are not invisible as they imagine themselves to be. That means they got a taste of the NEW REQUIREMENT of being Robert’s “student”, and that’s having to defend the reasons why to a questioning world. They might have less difficulty doing this in the FOF box, but the free movement between worlds is being hindered and I think that can only be a good thing, even if for comfort they huddle tighter together for awhile.

Also IMHO the insults generally damage the playing field, though, and should at least be given directly if at all.

I totally appreciate all of you who stay on course here with the DC factor as long as needed in this capacity.

Still wondering “what’s next”.

176. brucelevy - November 26, 2008

160. George Miller
What is the aim of the Petition?

The petition states it’s aim in the first section. What’s not to understand?

177. Across the River - November 26, 2008

160
George Miller

The petition speaks for itself. Could you be more clear with your question?

178. Across the River - November 26, 2008

Great minds….

179. Jomo Piñata - November 26, 2008

Yes, I agree that he’s an apologist but I have reservations about his sincerity. I believe that he is sincere in valuing the Fellowship, but he isn’t sincere in the way that he presents his arguments.

I think you’re right, but I also think that it’s a combination of FUZZY THINKING and lack of skill and desire to preserve his beliefs which, after all, took him quite a while to acquire and required extraordinary mental contortions.

180. Daily Cardiac - November 26, 2008

Jomo Piñata

I feel there are bigger issues than those of our most recent “aborted” debate.

At the risk of seeming to over simplify the topic I will propose that the blog, distilled to a single issue, would go something like this:

Ex members profess that the FoF is a destructive cult, founded by Robert Burton, who in turn is a charlatan/sociopath/fraud posing as an esoteric teacher/enlightened being.

FoF supporters/current members/me, propose the inverse, that the FoF is an esoteric school of awakening, with RB as founder and enlightened being/teacher.

You have arrived at your conclusion in your way, and I have arrived at mine in my way. Both conclusions are unprovable. Neither one can be disproved.

Where our understandings diverge is right here: You apparently confuse your beliefs with an all encompassing truth. You conclude that if you think something is so it must be so, and for all. You may very well deny this, but this is what I have been able to glean from your blog demeanor.

The dynamics are quite interesting to consider. Whenever an individual concludes that their beliefs/understandings/knowledge of a situation is infallible they are home free, as the next logical conclusion is that everyone else’s beliefs who might differ from theirs contains falsity, either in whole are in part. I’m sure you have a term for this kind of thinking. And these conclusions are not plucked out of a hat, they are based on a systematic thought process. But in any case the conclusions can only be a correct as the thought process that leads to the conclusion. If there is error there it will be reflected in the results.

It’s an iffy game to say the least when people are evaluating the inner world of other people, as differing motivations can often lead to similar actions. If I see someone going into a bank my first thought might be he is going to withdraw or deposit money, or retrieve something from a safety box, secure a loan possibly.

But he may be going to be interviewed for a job, which is a reason I did not even consider. So, there are pitfalls in arriving at infallible conclusions regarding people or sources that lie outside of ourselves.

If I’ve learned anything from my experiences in the FoF it is that it’s indeed a formidable task to know one’s own motivations. To know another’s is often like shooting in the dark; we often miss the target and when we hit it it’s as much attributable to luck as it is accuracy.

But this is not the biggest pitfall we encounter in arriving at surety. The biggest is our biases. In the end people will often believe what they want to believe. I excuse large faults in my friends and notice small ones in my enemies. If the stakes are high enough people can convince themselves that up is down and vice versa.

Personally, despite ton’s denials to the contrary, I feel that many are participating on the blog mainly for redemption, vindication, and not for the protection of those to come, or to prevent more victimization. And the only way they will find this redemption is from the demise of the FoF. Some part of them, on some level, are still not sure of their ultimate fate and the only real “bill of health” would be closure of the FoF. This is simply my own personal conclusion.

We do share some common ground. I do believe that what I have verified (I know you don’t like that word, so please just substitute it when you find it) about the FoF/RB is accurate. You may feel the same way about your understandings. Where we differ is that you have convinced yourself that your beliefs are synonymous with some form of all-encompassing truth. I only conclude that my truths or beliefs are correct for me. I don’t venture into what’s correct action for other people.

When it comes to the FoF, it’s not likely we are both correct. It’s unlikely the FoF is both a destructive cult and a conscious school. So one of us is probably closer to the mark than the other.

So, it’s possible I am right and you are wrong, or you are right and I am wrong. It’s also possible the FoF fulfills the nature of a conscious school from a higher perspective, and from a lower perspective it makes no sense at all, which has been one of my positions all along.

Ex members say that RB did this and that, did not do this or that, therefore he cannot be enlightened. What I say is that even if every word of every story conveyed here is entirely true (an impossibility I would say) it would not indicate he is not enlightened. Enlightened beings can do anything the gods ask them to do; there is no outer mold for consciousness. And gods can ask for anything they desire; they can extract anything they desire.

Robert’s actions, perceived or actual, cannot even be attributed to be the real reason ex members leave. What comes out of people’s mouths do not always correspond to their true feelings. I only know that certain ex members SAY they left the FoF because of this or that; think Robert is a fraud because of this or that.

The main point is that in my eyes nothing said on the blog regarding RB/FoF’s true nature is provable, nor can it be disproved.
Blogs are not proving grounds; they are forums where ideas, opinions, beliefs, fantasies, distortions, truths and falsehoods, can be exchanged.

It is true that certain behavioral patterns of Robert’s fall out side of some people’s idea of correct action for a conscious being. But that doesn’t add up to much in the way of proof, or objective truth.

181. Daily Cardiac - November 26, 2008

Steve:

The reply to #139 was copied and pasted for several hours and by the time I sent it (#150) you had already deleted #139. You can remove 150 if you wish to.

182. Across the River - November 27, 2008

DC, it was suggested somewhere way back that communicating with you is similar to debating an adolescent who has it all figured out. Sorry, but those speaking to you have been where you are, dedicated as you are, sure as you are, and from there matured into a new level of understanding…simple as that. It’s not presumtuous to say that “someday you’ll understand”.

There is no real issue of who’s right or wrong, so the time is past due for changing the debate, if possible. Can you imagine speaking with a Scientologist or some such and finding an answer to who’s right or wrong? It is EXACTLY the same in speaking with you. You’re not there! Forget the Fellowship. Let’s debate the pros and cons of mind-control formulas in general.

What new thing could be said to get through. I’m amazed at how carefully and intentionally so many here have continued to respond to your posts, trying in every way possible to rekindle the life in you.

It has never been easier to see the problem.

183. Daily Cardiac - November 27, 2008

Walter Tanner – 172:

“There were also very damaging doctrinal heresies that Robert seems to have introduced from the very beginning: the biggest of these, and the one I was constantly railing against from the inside, is the central place of “suffering.” Rarely mentioned was Gurdjieff’s observation that the last thing people will sacrifice is their suffering.

My instructions to observe and interrogate suffering through the concepts of identification, imagination and negative emotions was always passed over in silence.”

You said you met a lot of students in your days, so I find it difficult to believe you did not meet anyone capable of giving reasonable elaborations on the theme of suffering. It has always been a major theme. I don’t really follow the contradiction you allude to.

It’s fairly obvious that if NE are looked at as a suffering then who can give them up? Not the average person for sure. Look at how much negativity is expressed on the blog, by people who worked with this principle for years, even decades.

The FoF is not, nor has it ever been, interested in putting forth the premise that we need our suffering. Suffering is seen as a necessary ingredient in the process of transformation. Suffering + Transformation=Presence. There can be no regeneration without corruption.

But we certainly don’t need to manufacture any more suffering than comes to us naturally.

You also forgot to list as a major category “imaginary suffering.”
If a person thinks something unpleasant is true, regardless of whether it is on not, for him the suffering connected to it is “real.”

And almost all human suffering comes under the heading of imaginary.(I’m not talking about third world starvation, wars, disease, but for people like us, fat cats). Suffering is so hard to give up because if one did give it up presence would rush in to fill the void left by its departure, and then the lower self would be in a real fix.

As far as Robert’s “heresies” – “All truths begin as a blasphemy.”

Great artists can circumvent or break artistic rules, not just for the sake of doing it, but because they have the understanding to go beyond the rules. I’ve said it here before, “The Fourth Way” is a term Gurjieff coined around 100 years ago. Before that there was no “Fourth Way.” It is based on a collection/distillation of teachings.

Ouspensky called it “Fragments.” Today we live in the age of information (the internet) so esoteric source material can be collated with lighting speed where before it would take a lifetime of travel and sitting in dusty museum vaults to sift through. Of course even in this new world order there still needs to be someone to interpret esoteric truths accurately.

184. Jomo Piñata - November 27, 2008

At the risk of seeming to over simplify the topic I will propose that the blog, distilled to a single issue, would go something like this:

I’m listening, although I’m not sure why one would want to reduce a sprawling free-for-all of a forum to a single issue.

Ex members profess that the FoF is a destructive cult, founded by Robert Burton, who in turn is a charlatan/sociopath/fraud posing as an esoteric teacher/enlightened being. FoF supporters/current members/me, propose the inverse, that the FoF is an esoteric school of awakening, with RB as founder and enlightened being/teacher.

You have arrived at your conclusion in your way, and I have arrived at mine in my way. Both conclusions are unprovable. Neither one can be disproved.

On the contrary, mine can be proved, while yours cannot be. (Maybe it can’t be proved to you, but that’s something else again.)

It’s easy to prove he’s posing as an enlightened being. It’s also easy to tick off the attributes of antisocial personality disorder as listed in the DSM-IV. Look it up in Wikipedia.

According to the DSM-IV,three or more of the following attributes are required for the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder, which is how the mental health profession has come to define psychopathy/sociopathy:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

Interestingly, Wikipedia notes that some researchers have criticized these diagnostic criteria because “not enough emphasis was placed on traditional psychopathic traits such as a lack of empathy, superficial charm, and inflated self appraisal.” I am the brightest fucking light in two thousand years. Is that inflated enough for you?

I see (2) deceitfulness (3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead, (5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others (6) consistent irresponsibility, and (7) lack of remorse. That’s five criteria. DSM-IV only requires three.

Where our understandings diverge is right here: You apparently confuse your beliefs with an all encompassing truth. You conclude that if you think something is so it must be so, and for all. You may very well deny this, but this is what I have been able to glean from your blog demeanor.

See, Lacuna Piñata, this is where the fuzzy thinking comes in. What I hear you to be saying is you don’t like my unabashed attitude or the fact that I think I’m right. You think you’re right too. But the fact is, I have acquired and discarded all kinds of false beliefs in my life. I have discarded too many false beliefs to be terribly surprised to discover I am wrong. Paradoxically, this has emboldened me to say what I think.

The dynamics are quite interesting to consider. Whenever an individual concludes

See, Lacuna Piñata, you skip specifics right off the bat and make generalizations. That’s called FUZZY THINKING. Talk about specifics. If you are talking about me, talk about specific things I said. Don’t talk about “whenever an individual.” Talk about a particular individual. I am trying to bring you back to the “reality-based community.”

that their beliefs/understandings/knowledge of a situation is infallible they are home free, as the next logical conclusion is that everyone else’s beliefs who might differ from theirs contains falsity, either in whole are in part. I’m sure you have a term for this kind of thinking. And these conclusions are not plucked out of a hat, they are based on a systematic thought process. But in any case the conclusions can only be a correct as the thought process that leads to the conclusion. If there is error there it will be reflected in the results.

Backing up from your statement and squinting, to see if I can understand it, you think my thought process is faulty. Fair? Everybody knows Montaigne, “no man thinks his thinking faulty.”

It’s an iffy game to say the least when people are evaluating the inner world of other people, as differing motivations can often lead to similar actions.

This proposition I agree with. Usually there is a limit to what can be inferred from observing behavior. However, if an individual repeatedly lies, takes outrageous risks in respect of others’ health or safety, and demonstrates a pattern of utter remorselessness after causing affirmative harm, I don’t care one way or another about the particulars of what motivates him or the niceties of his inner world. I care that others know he is a psychopath and I warn people to stay away from him.

We do share some common ground. I do believe that what I have verified (I know you don’t like that word, so please just substitute it when you find it) about the FoF/RB is accurate.

See, Lacuna, you have just ignored the prompt I gave you earlier about what goes into “verification.” The mind is like a hand. Critical thinking is the thumb. You can’t get much of a grip on anything without your thumb. You can’t verify anything unless you can think about it, and you can’t think effectively without learning to think critically. The generalizations you make without having a firm grasp of specifics and your tendency to jump to conclusions without reasoning, as demonstrated in your writing, show me that you are unpracticed at thinking critically. Somewhere in there, B.rother L.acuna, is a mind that could benefit from learning to think critically.

Where we differ is that you have convinced yourself that your beliefs are synonymous with some form of all-encompassing truth. I only conclude that my truths or beliefs are correct for me. I don’t venture into what’s correct action for other people.

Cain, said God, Where is Abel? I know not, said Cain. Am I my brother’s keeper?

185. ton - November 27, 2008

daily cancer around 183,

just to rephrase:

“bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit… and etc…”

but here comess the ‘kicker’… the post ends with this:

“there still needs to be someone to interpret esoteric truths accurately.”

a question…
what about you ?
yourself ?

186. elena - November 27, 2008

Dear Daily Cardiac,

180. Daily Cardiac – November 26, 2008

Good try! How funny, for the degree of your absurdity is nothing but funny no matter how serious you all think you are. That really must be the chief feature of the Fellowship: hundreds of people thinking that because they look serious, they are serious. This must be the Theater of the Absurd! Seriously absurd is what you are.

DC: Ex members profess that the FoF is a destructive cult, founded by Robert Burton, who in turn is a charlatan/sociopath/fraud posing as an esoteric teacher/enlightened being.

FoF supporters/current members/me, propose the inverse, that the FoF is an esoteric school of awakening, with RB as founder and enlightened being/teacher.
You have arrived at your conclusion in your way, and I have arrived at mine in my way. Both conclusions are unprovable. Neither one can be disproved.

————-You can try to say it a hundred different ways but you’re lying to your selves. We have every proof that Robert Burton is a charlatan/sociopath/fraud, while you don’t have the slightest proof that he isn’t with the exception of your blind commitment.

DC: You apparently confuse your beliefs with an all encompassing truth. You conclude that if you think something is so it must be so, and for all.

………..No, it’s you who are confused and it’s you who conclude that since Bobby Dick is a God he can get away with hell, but we’ll see, it’s only been less than two years love and you’re already out of funds!!! More money you idiots, Get more money out of those stinking bags, bobby dear, needs a house in Mexico and Egypt! And a new wardrobe for all the boys!

DC: Whenever an individual concludes that their beliefs/understandings/knowledge of a situation is infallible they are home free.

—————That’s what the Fellowship is hoping life is about but unfortunately it’s getting to it. Late but never too late! You’ll still see the end of this.
DC: If I’ve learned anything from my experiences in the FoF it is that it’s indeed a formidable task to know one’s own motivations.
—————–That is the greatest truth you’ve yet written here. Congratulations! You are finally understanding that in the FOF you even loose track of what your motivations are! You stop trusting yourself enough to not know what it is that you want. It’s called brainwashing dear, simple, clear, brainwashing in which even your heart is washed away. Divine Clorox!

DC:To know another’s is often like shooting in the dark; we often miss the target and when we hit it it’s as much attributable to luck as it is accuracy.

——————We must be getting to the climax of the Theater of the Absurd dear, do you have a valium or something? I can’t stop laughing. Do you really think like this or did some kind of professional cult saviour give you advice about how to deal with the blog? If you’re paying him, stop wasting your money. It’s more of a waste than Bobby’s underwear! Let me repeat: Or I mean, please repeat:

DC:To know another’s (motivation) is often like shooting in the dark; we often miss the target and when we hit it it’s as much attributable to luck as it is accuracy.

————- Is that how you justify Bobby’s, Girard’s and all the other enabler’s motivations? By simply saying that no one can explain anyone’s motivations? Do you think that’s such smart logic for your money makers to swallow? Ofcourse, the mentally retarded left overs of the Fellowship might swallow such treat, the stupid sheep who pay and pay and never ask? Hoping they can be a good boy and a good girl and never question anything but pay their way to heaven? Do you tell them this logic first and then follow up with the idea that they cannot know why divine men like Bobby Dick have to get the whole of the Fellowship to set the boys up because he’s so insecure of himself that he can’t even seduce a stinking lover?
Oh dear, I’m getting upset aren’t I? The blog, I mean the blood starts boiling when one laughs so much at the inhuman abuse of people who think they can really get away with this much stupidity, treating everyone on the blog just like they treat everyone in the Fellowship, like full grown idiots, convinced that everyone in the world outside is just as stupid as everyone else inside who’ve swallowed this kind of logic for over thirty five years and still beg for a little more of it. You sick pimps.

DC: the only real “bill of health” would be closure of the FoF. This is simply my own personal conclusion.
———–Now you’re talking. Shut down the fucking brothel and open the fucking Cult, call it by its name and we won’t stop anyone from joining if they want to, but stop trying to deceive people with bla, bla, bla like this one.

In Court dear, motivations are very simple. How much money, how much sex and how many brainwashed idiots? One plus one plus one, equals CULT. A delicious combination of Cult brothel with a legion of pimps for every perverted human voyeurist that get’s off on watching how decency can be destroyed with silk. The more genuinely decent people they look, the more perverted they are inside, sitting there giving out tickets for the show. $350 a seat, dears, specially for you who make it all possible, please remember to wear skirts and ties because we are all very serious decent people here.

DC: I only conclude that my truths or beliefs are correct for me. I don’t venture into what’s correct action for other people.

———–Let the law take care of what you think is correct for you.
DC: Enlightened beings can do anything the gods ask them to do; there is no outer mold for consciousness.

————–You’re wonderful Daily Cardiac, you really are. When the Fellowship gets shut down you’ll be the first one I’ll come and thank. Please don’t forget this jewel of consciousness for when the lawyers ask you why you do what you do.

DC: And gods can ask for anything they desire; they can extract anything they desire.
Robert’s actions, perceived or actual, cannot even be attributed to be the real reason ex members leave.

————- You’re terrified of the blog you people are, bravo! Now we are in business! And I thought we were wasting our time!

Dear Members, please memorize the following: “And gods can ask for anything they desire; they can extract anything they desire”
Even someone’s death Daily Cardiac dear?

What comes out of people’s mouths do not always correspond to their true feelings. I only know that certain ex members SAY they left the FoF because of this or that; think Robert is a fraud because of this or that.
The main point is that in my eyes nothing said on the blog regarding RB/FoF’s true nature is provable, nor can it be disproved.

Blogs are not proving grounds; they are forums where ideas, opinions, beliefs, fantasies, distortions, truths and falsehoods, can be exchanged.

It is true that certain behavioral patterns of Robert’s fall out side of some people’s idea of correct action for a conscious being. But that doesn’t add up to much in the way of proof, or objective truth.

————- This last sentence dears, is meant to keep you calm about what is going on so that you think nothing said here can be proven in court. And you know what, it might not be because the courts seem as corrupt as the Fellowship and won’t take action against Cults so if you can’t take your destiny in your hands your spirit will continue to disappear in the darkness of this reasoning. Wake up you idiots before it’s too late. Get the hell out of there. Run. No matter where, anywhere is better. Just run.

187. Daily Cardiac - November 27, 2008

Bruce Levy – 155:

“I just ran into a friend who said they were waiting on a line at the OH store the other day. There were two members who were discussing the “terrible things” that were being posted on the blog about the FOF and RB.”

Several have commented favorably on this entry, indicating they took the bait. It’s interesting how little convincing is needed when someone reads what they want to read.

An obvious discrepancy is that two FoF members would actually be discussing the blog in a manner all to hear while in line at the grocery.

FoF member – ” I heard so and so moved to Amsterdam. By the way, I know we aren’t supposed to be reading the blog, but what do you think of all the terrible things being said lately about the Fellowship of Friends and our teacher Robert Burton?”

Next we have a non-member who has the verve to turn around and confront them face to face. Bruce says he has posted here. Why didn’t he tell his own recounting of the incident? He doesn’t seem to be the shy type. The only non-member who has posted in some time is Dragon.

Anyone who buys Bruce’s story is brainwashed squared.

188. veramente - November 27, 2008

DC180
Ex members profess that the FoF is a destructive cult, founded by Robert Burton, who in turn is a charlatan/sociopath/fraud posing as an esoteric teacher/enlightened being.

FoF supporters/current members/me, propose the inverse, that the FoF is an esoteric school of awakening, with RB as founder and enlightened being/teacher.

You have arrived at your conclusion in your way, and I have arrived at mine in my way. Both conclusions are unprovable. Neither one can be disproved.
—————————–

You know DC, I start feeling that you should have been in the Bush administration.Your ability to lie and turn things around is quite amazing. I do not believe any longer that you are sincere. All of your thoughts are fabricated as someone quite ready to do a debate on a
pro- FOF campaign.

IMO and not only mine, it is very provable that RB is a sick man, charlatan/sociopath/fraud posing who has caused extensive damage. There are lots of people who can prove this with definite accounts and with legal authorities.

What you claim instead the ” FoF is an esoteric school of awakening, with RB as founder and enlightened being/teacher” remains in the realm of your imagination and all the current members wishful thinking that you got something so special that in reality it does not exist, it cannot be proven with your words, theories, thoughts and good manners.

189. veramente - November 27, 2008

DC 187
Anyone who buys Bruce’s story is brainwashed squared.
_____________________
you wish, Daily Nausea

190. Ellen - November 27, 2008

#184, Jomo,
You amaze me with your fortitude. I have given up on DC. You have not, bravo to you.
*****
DC: I only conclude that my truths or beliefs are correct for me. I don’t venture into what’s correct action for other people.

Jomo: Cain, said God, Where is Abel? I know not, said Cain. Am I my brother’s keeper?
*****
previously, DC #125: There is an obvious stigma attached to a seeker leaving a conscious school.

DC, you do venture into ignorant stigma judgement of correct action for other people, as this contrast illustrates. I would merely like to point that out to you.

In actual fact, there is and can be, no judgement whatsoever regarding a true seeker and his or her path. Any enlightened master would say so, and I can give you umpteen quotes, if you desire it, but it’s doubtless that you would be able to hear since your mentality is already twisted in a particular direction. Still, I would merely like to point that out to you.

191. Crouching Tiger - November 27, 2008

Walter.

You’re wise to make some sort of division between Gurdjieff and Ouspensky in terms of how the 4th Way was/is understood. From my own experience, the fellowship has some connection to the way Ouspensky taught (intellectually), but virtually none to Gurdjieff.

When DC talks about verification and observation I’m sure he’s being sincere in his own terms. But having been in the school, I am also aware of just how far down those observations can reach – much the same as the correction of one ‘idiot I’ from among the ten thousand can be corrected by a ‘good I’ from the steward…

The use of the Movements and other associated exercises is in my experience crucial to the success of someone trying to use the 4th Way ‘map’. The point is that observations/verifications have to be registered in and through the body, otherwise they are understood by one part but not by another. If you’re dealing at the level DC is, in the good I vs. bad I scale, you can’t be certain of the ‘result’ because the medium in which the result is visible (the body) isn’t part of your framework. You’ll have an idea that what you’re doing is right, but that rightness won’t be confirmed by the essential third party – or only randomly. DC’s statement about one experience not being able to ‘disprove’ another exists in exactly the same scale. The perception comes from a place where that’s the only truth that can be seen…

Other obvious instances where Gurdjieff groups can be different from the fellowship: 1. the money asked for is about 0.5 or 1% of your monthly income. 2. There is no overall guru/teacher in the REB mould. ‘Life is the teacher’.

I’ll contact you through your email address when I can. Thanks.

192. Draco - November 27, 2008

Daily Cardiac Again,

One of your latest techniques is incredulity: how can it be that 75% of the messages are replies to your own posts? How can it be that no one on the blog admits that the FOF is a conscious school? How can it be that people stay in so long if the FOF isn’t a conscious school? (The reasons for these should be self-evident.)

56/180

You’re back to your basic pseudological pattern here: claim the basic equivalenece and relativity of the different point of view on the blog, and then attempt to show how your point of view is actually superior to the others. Your point that all the anti-FOF people are absolutely rigidly convinced that their opinions are fact, whereas you aren’t, is obviously untrue. You have never given us any sign that you might reconsider your opinion, and you put a lot of effort into objectivizing them.

Then, you create a false dichotomy: “conscious school” or “destructive cult”? “Conscious school ” is a term used by Robert Burton. Its specific meaning changes periodically (“a conscious school needs a man no 6 and a man no 5 to take his place”; “a conscious school needs outside help”; “a conscious school has the keys and the sequence”) but a conscious school is seen as an absolutely exceptional thing: Gurdjieff didn’t have a conscious school, Meher Baba didn’t have a conscious school: Jesus did and we do. Obviously, no one outside of the FOF is going to see it in this way, yet you are incredulous that no one on the blog sees the FOF as a conscious school!

But if instead of “destructive cult” and “conscious school” we substitute “cult” and “organization for people with spiritual aspirations”, the FOF can obviously be both.

I was just browsing through the wikipedia article on cults, and the following list of criteria suit the FOF very well,

“Studies of the psychological aspects of cults focus on the individual person, and factors relating to the choice to become involved as well as the subsequent effects on individuals. Under one view, an important factor is coercive persuasion which suppresses the ability of people to reason, think critically, and make choices in their own best interest.

Studies of religious, political, and other cults have identified a number of key steps in this type of coercive persuasion:

1. People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations;
2. Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
3. They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader;
4. They get a new identity based on the group;
5. They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled.”

Then there are your analogies. They have no persuasive power because they are constructed to prove your point, and one can construct analogies to prove a different point. How about this one: a Fellowship student is like someone who goes to weight loss classes. In the first few weeks s/he loses some weight and everything seems to work well–there’s a good sense of community and the methods seem to be successful. However, the person never reaches the target weight and whenever s/he stops going to the classes, the pounds start coming on again, and the person feels terrible. So s/he continues going to the classes year after year. Occasionally the weight goes down a bit more, but it’s always temporary.

The FOF practices have some effect. Every cult offers its members something that the person isn’t receiving in the outside world, and on eof the things that the Fellowship offers is a wee bit of seeing oneself, a wee bit of balance, a wee bit of awakening… but it can never go beyond a certain point and the methds and worldview are so constructed that when you leave it is very difficult to benefit from them.

193. Crouching Tiger - November 27, 2008

On the subject of the research octave being an ‘ark’ of esoteric knowledge, I should point out that, having been heavily involved in the octave, I do know just how flimsy and superficial it is.

There’s a short turnaround, usually a matter of a few days, for quotes for upcoming meetings, and an encouragement to use ‘wordsearch’ to find appropriate material… so there’s little in the way of deeper understanding being used. And of course people are usually looking into traditions with which they are not familiar, so often they are just guessing.

The quotes themselves can sound fine and dramatic at meetings, but they are just soundbytes being used to create a certain effect. There is no complete understanding – in the sense of Gurdjieff’s ‘coffee-grower’ story – underpinning them. Unless you happen to believe that REB automatically understands everything he’s given to say.

Having said that, I really enjoyed the opportunity to explore the books I bought on the Sufis in more depth, so that was definitely useful.

194. Draco - November 27, 2008

We were discussing the Fellowship reactions to the blog. Here’s one:-

March 2, 2007
Dear Friends:

In recent weeks, some of you have told us that you received unsolicited e-mail and mailings. Apparently mass-mailings and e-mails have been sent to almost everyone listed in the Fellowship’s private membership directories and on Propylaia. Some emails have pointed to a link appearing to be a Fellowship-sponsored discussion group.

Very strong laws protect the privacy rights of private organizations and their members, especially religious organizations. These laws range from State and Federal laws to the Constitutions of the United States , and California , and international treaties. California has especially strong rights protecting the privacy of members and the organization from unsolicited communications, and the modern version known as “spam.”

We are taking the invasion of your privacy rights very seriously. We are investigating the unauthorized use of Propylaia and the Fellowship’s private membership lists and are reporting these matters to all responsible government agencies.

Even if this invasion of privacy continues, rest assured that we are aware of the situation. Remember that you are free not to become involved.

Wishing you much presence,

Kevin Brown,

Dean of the Council

Linda Tulisso

Fellowship President

============================
And another,

March 7, 2007

Dear Friends:

Thank you for the many supportive responses to our recent message about invasion of our rights of privacy.

At this time, when the most powerful teachings from Influence C are being revealed and shared, there are a number of anonymous people who use the Internet to harass the Teacher, the School and its members.

The people involved in these activities use false names, stolen identities, copyright violations, defamation, and tactics of negativity. Among other instances, Asaf’s name has been misappropriated and used for false e-mails containing vulgar profanities. Yesterday Linda Tulisso ’s name and picture were falsely used to cast her and Fellowship Management in a negative, false light and to provide a link for unauthorized access to copyrighted materials on Propylaia. It is currently known that this has now gone beyond students with visible roles, such as Asaf and Linda . It now includes stealing names of other students for use in false cyber communications because of their national origin so as to falsely deceive friends in other countries into thinking that one of their fellow student countrymen, be it from Japan, Russia, etc., is actually sponsoring negative attacks against the Teacher and the School.

As with other recent privacy rights violations, the Fellowship takes these matters seriously and reports all such matters to governmental agencies at State and Federal levels as well as in other countries and the European Community for investigation and prosecution. In recent years, the U.S. government, every State, and country have passed strong criminal laws against cyber tactics of identity theft, false representation, and anonymous annoyances and harassment of private individuals and organizations. Law enforcement agencies can trace anonymous or false messages to its source.

If you wish to help, you may forward to the Fellowship’s office any such e-mails, web pages, blogs, CDs or MP3 files you have received, either directly or indirectly, electronically, or by regular mail. Please include a brief factual description including your name, address where it was received, the date of receipt of the communication, and the source, if known. If you have received communications via mail, we would appreciate your including the envelope and/or packaging when you forward this to the Fellowship’s office.

These laws exist to protect all people in all countries. The people involved in the current harassment have openly stated their intent to violate these laws to destroy the School, to injure students and the Teacher. These invasive tactics are not innocent nor can they remain hidden.

The School and our Teacher and friends have been attacked before but we have become stronger and deeper through the transformation of this friction. It is therefore before us to address these matters with presence and with vigilance.

All students should feel free to discuss any of these matters or concerns with their center directors, regional coordinators, the Council, Fellowship Ministers, and Fellowship management.

Thank you for your help, diligence, and presence.

Kevin Brown

Council Dean

Linda Tulisso

Fellowship President

============================

195. Draco - November 27, 2008

56/187

Bruce’s scenario is perfectly feasible. I’ve often been surprised at the things that FOF members will say in the Oregon House store. It’s as if they think that the non-students simply can’t understand what they’re saying. RB once sent out a message asking students not to make jokes about 9/11 in the Oregon House Store.

196. Yesri Baba - November 27, 2008

“Ex members profess that the FoF is a destructive cult, founded by Robert Burton, who in turn is a charlatan/sociopath/fraud posing as an esoteric teacher/enlightened being.”

“All truths begin as a blasphemy.”

197. Yesri Baba - November 27, 2008

195 Draco

“RB once sent out a message asking students not to make jokes about 9/11 in the Oregon House Store.”

———-

I bet they’re not laughing now that the disaster joke is about them.

198. dragon - November 27, 2008

“The School and our Teacher and friends have been attacked before but we have become stronger and deeper through the transformation of this friction.”

——————————————-

Is a physical friction loss come into being concerning the pipes of the FOF?

Another great implausibility concerning the methods of the FOF. Such a mental striptease.

All those contradictions and fabulous attempts:

The FOF a conscious school of barrel bursting.

LET GO! It is showtime!

PS Cardiac Remedy, you play the harp with verve! Amazing grace!

It is exclusively your brother “Jomo”, who remains!

199. dragon - November 27, 2008

annotation:

My comprehension of the “FOF conscious school”:

It is the group of people who are involved in the MONEY MACHINE FOF, who are in a relationship of dependance (physical and/or moral and/or mental) being beneficiaries of the system and knowing or guessing the isolated misuse facts ( abuse, money-laundering…) but supressing, “buffering” and/or negating and/or using bogus arguments to save the system and to protect the system from rejuvenation.

200. brucelevy - November 27, 2008

187. Douchebag Consistently

Cr**g D*kt*r is the person,he works up there and has posted here. Why the fuck would I fabricate the story? They were right behind him in line. “for all to hear” is your fabrication. You really are a schmuck.

201. elena - November 27, 2008

187. Daily Cardiac – November 27, 2008
Bruce Levy – 155:

It is pretty clear that this post could be from Daily Cardiac or anybody else and in fact the “tone” is not Daily Cardiac’s who would not tend to say something like “brainwashed square”.

If we were to revise DC posts we would probably find many such inconsistencies.

How do you people getting together to do this feel when you can’t even answer the blog personally? Not one of you is sincere enough to speak for your self? You have to get into a little group to sort this matter out because not one of you has the capacity to stand up for your self or the Fellowship on your own?

Do you think that pretending to represent the Fellowship with just one individual who never expresses negativity is better than setting up this lie? or each of you talking from your self? Don’t you trust yourselves enough to speak your word?

Vinie, where are you? Come and stand up for the brothel, you were doing a much better, more sincere job than this idiots disguised in “consciousness”. All they are managing is to make me laugh and because I was in much need of some laughter I’ll have to thank them: A loud laughter filled with sadness at your ridiculous tactics. You don’t even have enough being to represent yourselves in that cheap pimp kindergarden.

Wake up you idiots. Hate me if you wish but get the fuck out of that pimphole. Your souls are as sissy as your bodies, you all look like you’d fall apart if someone touched you. Is that why you have to get together in groups to defend yourselves from this common sense questioning?

202. Panorea - November 27, 2008

DC

Do you know why so many people reply to you? Because you are the personification of all the many I’s we have all had.

And all the brainwashed ideas you represent make an excellent study for Cults and Cult Behaviour, so I have submitted them in a committee that investigates similar methods of abuse. Thanks for helping others to confront evil and corruption.

You are so often bitter and lost in odd patterns of thought. You never reply directly and clearly to people like Jomo Piñata who talk to you sentence by sentence. You are arrogant and ignorant. You should be more than grateful to people who try to show you the depths of deception you have entered. What a pitiful waste of your life.

Even as a Cult you are small and pathetic. Who wants to be part of it? You may think what you like about ex-members. It says more about you than them. Keep on following the judgment that a damaged man inserted in your brain long time ago. Great and fun life you are having.

203. Associated Press - November 27, 2008

Fellowship of Friends – This could happen with you:

Man killed at Scientology building had church ties

By THOMAS WATKINS
Associated Press Writer
Nov 24, 10:44 PM EST

LOS ANGELES (AP) — An Oregon man who was fatally shot as he wielded samurai swords and tried to attack guests at a landmark Scientology building was a former follower of the religion who had made at least a dozen previous threats against the church, officials said Monday.

Mario Majorski, 48, was shot once by a security guard as he tried to use the swords to attack guests Sunday at the Scientology Celebrity Centre in Hollywood, police said. Hundreds of people were eating brunch or doing other activities at the time, said Scientology spokesman Tommy Davis.

Majorski had threatened the church in incidents dating to at least 2005 that were reported to the Los Angeles Police Department, the FBI and Oregon authorities, Davis said. The threats were allegedly made through faxes and telephone calls, but police and the FBI could not immediately confirm how many were made.

“He was clearly disturbed,” Davis said. “It’s just a tragic incident. Our condolences go out to his family or friends.”

Majorski had been a Scientologist in the early 1990s but appeared to have left the church about 15 years ago, Davis said.

The shooting will be reviewed by the district attorney’s office, but police were treating the killing as justifiable.

“The security guard had to take action to prevent the deceased from killing or maiming people on the premises,” Los Angeles police Detective Wendi Berndt said.

Security surveillance tape showed Majorski arriving around noon in a red convertible, then approaching the guards with a sword in each hand before he was shot, Berndt said. No other weapons were found in the car, which Berndt said she thought was a rental.

Majorski was pronounced dead at Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center.

Public records show he was born in Los Angeles County and was associated with a string of addresses there and in Oregon, most recently living in Florence, Ore. He filed for bankruptcy in 2000.

Majorski called AAA after running out of gas on the road where he lived, Florence police reports show. The AAA driver, Doug Bushwar, described toy lined up in a row behind Majorski’s truck, according to the police report.

When Bushwar approached, Majorski allegedly threatened him with an ax. He later threatened to shoot approaching police officers before running to his house, claiming there were hostages and explosives inside, according to the police report.

The two officers later arrested Majorski and found no hostages or explosives.

On Nov. 2, Majorski disrupted a Mormon church service in Florence by “cursing and moving around a lot,” Florence police spokeswoman Sarah Huff said. Police arrested him on charges of disorderly conduct and criminal trespass.

Other Oregon arrest reports show Majorski was arrested for criminal trespass by the Eugene Police Department in May 2007, and the next month the Lane County Sheriff’s Department arrested him for unlawful use of a weapon.

In 1993, Majorski and another man sued a University of California, Los Angeles, professor who had been speaking out against Scientology, Davis said. He said the men felt the professor was discriminating against them, but the case was found to have no standing and was dropped.

The Celebrity Centre is a turreted, castle-like landmark in Hollywood that serves as “a home for the artist, a place where he can come and learn, attend seminars, meet other artists and even perform at our many showcases and events,” according to the Centre’s Web site.

The Church of Scientology was established in 1945 by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard and claims 10 million members around the world. It likes to cultivate celebrity followers and among its more famed acolytes are Tom Cruise and John Travolta.

Contributing to this report were Associated Press Television News videographer John Mone in Los Angeles, AP writers Mary Hudetz and Terrence Petty in Portland, Ore., and AP researcher Judy Ausuebel.

© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

Click my ‘Associated Press’ name for link to the AP site and news article. This is not a made up story.

204. elena - November 27, 2008

Daily Cancer and Company,

Don’t you ever read Self Remembering by your Teacher?

Here’s one brilliant quote:

One’s evolution is directly related to one’s ability to curb subjective thinking. Objective knowledge is not personal, although its verification is. Fragments of objective knowledge are not opinions, they are facts. Objective knowledge is mathematical, because if knowledge cannot be mathematical it can be only relatively true.

FACTS dears, we’ve got the facts, you’ve got the opinions. Deal with the FACTS and get out of imagination, you fools!

“While the school will take care of the students, it is more true that students must take care of the school. It is necessary to work for a greater aim than oneself throughout one’s life -to assist the conscious aspects of the Ray of Creation.”

This is so clearly justifying your having to support and make efforts for the Cult without receiving anything back, stagnating and crystallizing the possibility of exchange, love, communication, digestion, healing and growth. Help your selves.

“There are many paths to truth. As we review history, we can see schools in many forms. As one begins to awaken, it is one’s duty to help others, just as one has been helped.”

HELP OTHERS, DID YOU HEAR? NOT SET THEM UP FOR RAPE! YOU NEED TO HELP OTHERS, Don’t JUST SIT ON YOUR ROSES AND PRETEND OTHERS DON’T EXIST!

205. aline - November 27, 2008

#202 Panorea

Hello Panorea,
I will just post an old post I kept (may be from Veronicappoe?, I cannot remember).
It illustrates perfectly what you describe in your post “202”.

“Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen?
The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view”
I don’t know what to add.

206. dragon - November 27, 2008

Daily Remedy, Dear Center dictators, Dear treasurers and all the trustfully FOF-Pet’s ( eating daily their mental lickings from the FOF Cuisine)

Try to establish a daily FOF Channel on You Tube:

You’ll get them all! With mental diarrhoea but this is a pretty good irrigation of the brain tissue! Start it now!

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqX-tkDXEk

207. Jomo Piñata - November 27, 2008

The principle set forth in 205/Aline is discussed at length in When Prophecy Fails: A social and psychological study of a modern group that predicted the end of the world by Leon Festinger, Henry W. Riecken, and Stanley Schachter.

Those interested can type Festinger When Prophecy Fails into Google Scholar and find the articles and books that cite this work.

208. Panorea - November 27, 2008

Another escape, another quiet and humble exit…

Maybe this time He will be right with the prediction: One by one you will escape…

Thank you Aline!

209. fofblogmoderator - November 27, 2008

206 is newly moderated

210. Daily Cardiac - November 27, 2008

Draco – 192:

Here’s what you don’t see – Everything you point out about my “tactics” or “strategy” can be applied to any number of ex members posting here, including yourself.

Yet you cannot read their/your posts with enough neutrality to see it. Everything you say is applicable both ways. That is why nothing on the blog can be proved or disproved. Words alone mean very little in terms of truth.

Truth comes out in spite of words however.

The way ex members respond to my words is telling. If you had the truth on your side so many of you would not give my posts the attention you do give them.

If I were just a “shill” I would in all likelihood simply be ignored. My content would not merit your continual refutations.They would be too lame to even bother with. They would be considered harmless to you.

It is the fact they have merit that forces you to respond to them.

211. Jomo Piñata - November 27, 2008

It is the fact they have merit that forces you to respond to them.

Dream on, man.

212. lauralupa - November 27, 2008

DC
It is the fact they have merit that forces you to respond to them.

So now, when someone responds to your posts, even if just to say they are total crap, you can use that to reinforce your belief, based on the above unfounded assumption, that your words actually have merit.
Mirror, mirror on the wall…
will the curse be ever broken?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=r_Kre4K6sKo

213. James Mclemore - November 27, 2008

DC
“Truth comes out in spite of words however.”

Yes it does DC, yes it does.

214. whalerider - November 27, 2008

Daily Challenge:
“If you had the truth on your side so many of you would not give my posts the attention you do give them.”

Think of us as white blood cells, that’s why there are more of us than you here and why you get so much attention from us.

215. fofblogmoderator - November 27, 2008

212 is newly moderated

216. George Miller - November 27, 2008

What is the aim of the Petition?

Bruce:
The petition states it’s aim in the first section. What’s not to understand?

Petition:

To: all appropriate regulating agencies and elected officials of the State of California and the United States of America. World news media, and all world citizens concerned with abuses of religious power.

Bruce can you please elaborate on who are the “appropriate regulating agencies” ?

Are there any historical evidence that Petitions work?

217. elena - November 27, 2008

Happy Thanksgiving to all in and out!

218. brucelevy - November 27, 2008

216. George Miller

Give me a break. This isn’t a sociology class for you. Do the research yourself.

DC

All your years of hard work in the FOF and you’ve not even scratched the surface of your profound (but undeserved) intellectual vanity. You’re the worst kind of chronic masturbator…intellectual.

219. elena - November 27, 2008

A happy thanksgiving song!

http://de.youtube.com/watchv=Dt0sXRBLfJM&feature=related

I finally have high speed in my own place!

220. Yesri Baba - November 27, 2008

” Words alone mean very little in terms of truth.”

“Suffering is seen as a necessary ingredient in the process of transformation. Suffering + Transformation=Presence. There can be no regeneration without corruption.”

“Suffering is so hard to give up because if one did give it up presence would rush in to fill the void left by its departure, and then the lower self would be in a real fix.”

221. Yesri Baba - November 27, 2008

DC

You are a booger eating, pimple popping retard.

222. fofblogmoderator - November 27, 2008

219 is newly moderated

223. dragon - November 27, 2008

219. elena

Hi Elena,

“404 Not Found” the best song on YouTube I’ve ever seen.
We should start a Blog Women Monty Python Kafkaesk Show!
I like your humour.

Try Ratatouille Pastiche and a living turkey with a great Margarita.

Cherio D.

Happy Thanksgiving and a BAMBI for the BLOG and all the FOF-members all around the world. It is going to become better with a Margarita and a living turkey.

224. simeon - November 27, 2008

High Juicy Brucy !
All your years without hard work in the FOF and you’ve not even scratched the surface of your profound (but deserved !!) intellectual vanity. You’re the best kind of chronic masturbator…intellectual.

225. Draco - November 27, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

“The way ex members respond to my words is telling. If you had the truth on your side so many of you would not give my posts the attention you do give them.

If I were just a “shill” I would in all likelihood simply be ignored. My content would not merit your continual refutations.They would be too lame to even bother with. They would be considered harmless to you.

It is the fact they have merit that forces you to respond to them.”

DC, if you keep running into Harlem shouting “Niggaz is stoopid” you keep getting beat up. It doesn’t mean either that you have truth behind you or that your arguments are powerful.

226. lauralupa - November 27, 2008

thanks Elena and everyone, a happy thanksgiving to you too!
gratitude for this precious human life – isn’t it amazing to be alive?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk&feature=channel
(special thanks to dragon)

227. elena - November 28, 2008

Aah Laura! You truly are talented!! That was fun, we need a lot more of you around here.

My fridge is older than that one! And just as cute!

********

For Socrates, love is no God -love is what leads human beings to god. Eros, love, is not a god for him. God is perfect and therefor has beauty and goodness. Eros therefore stands between human beings and God. Love is daemon, a mediator between the earthly and the heavenly.

Isn’t Socrates one of the Conscious beings guys? Where did you forget that love is what unites the higher and the lower?

228. peter - November 28, 2008

Dear Daily Cardiac,
You Are a Wonderful Person, and by the End of this Brief Note you have Learned some more Wonderful Things about Yourself!

Recently C-influence told me that you are going to become a man number 7.
Oh Joy… you are in your last lifetime…..and all this for just a few hundred dollars a month.

Aren’t you lucky… and if you will keep paying I wil tell you many more secrets about Yourself, and……it is all good.

Dear, you will evolve so fast and so high that you will leave Robert Burton in dust. The former ‘teacher’ will see that and his only aim will be to be around you.

He will gladly work in your garden and wash your dishes for 250 dollar a month and from now on only ‘suck’ on ice creams.

Love, Peter

229. elena - November 28, 2008

Dragon,

I’m in level minus nine in the scale of humour but will soon get it right!

“The unconscious active force of the soul is presented as a feminine element that allows the Divine to enter consciousness…

The world of the gods is born in the soul. We look upon what we ourselves create in the form of images as our gods. But we must advance to another idea. The divine power within us, which is active before we create the images of the gods, must also be transformed into a divine image. Thus, behind the Divine, appears the mother of the Divine. She is none other than the original power of the human soul. Beside the gods, we place the goddesses.”

This quote and the one in the post before are from Love and its meaning in the world, by R. Steiner.

*******

I play
Not sound but music
Plays on me

I write,
Not words but meanings
Enter our soul

I listen,
Not I but you
Within me

I dance not
It is the world what dances within me.

Inside and outside
Stand as one
In the Sculpture of the body
This beautiful body with which
I enjoy life

Each movement sings a
Battle-sword of Clear Light
In Form.

My soul calls out to your soul
From deep within your soul,
It calls me back. The echo is nothing but the recognition of it’s own soul.

I live in the echo of your soul.

Happy Thanksgiving Friends, in and out. May you find a body to hold love!

230. Bares Reposting - November 28, 2008

in 205. aline, this appeared:

“Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen?

The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view”

– – – – – –

It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
Upton Sinclair

231. dragon - November 28, 2008

224. Dear Friend and Fellow Student Simeon-Michael Peacock,

In recent months, we were so proud of your improvements concerning your philosophical development here in our new Australian Rebirth Robert E. Burton Commemorative FOF Centre (ARREBCFC).

But you have told us that you have pointed 100,000 “S”pam-emails (to fiddle more illegal earnings) with your own index finger to a link appearing to be an old (Burton/FOF) Fellowship-sponsored Californian Center.

What shall we do with a drunken index finger? Dearest Simeon-Michael, very strong laws protect the index fingers of our students.
These laws range from State and Federal laws to the Constitutions of the United States and California and international treaties.

We are taking the alcoholic invasion of your misdirected index finger very seriously. We are investigating the unauthorised use of the index finger.

REMEMBER that you are free not to be involved.

The three Bruce’s will continue teaching you our philosophical lessons.

Wishing you more presence:

ARREBCFC President

232. dragon - November 28, 2008

lauralupa and elena:

Femine dominance lighter and more deliciously than a meringue.

Thank you for being present sisters!

233. Associated Press - November 28, 2008

Bubba Free John aka Franklin Jones Dead [Reportedly of massive heart failure during meditation session.]
(November 3, 1939 – November 27, 2008)
One less cult leader on planet earth.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adidam

Copied from http://www.adidaarchives.org:

Adi Da Samraj aka Da Free John aka Bubba Free John aka Franklin Jones is an American-born guru who claims to be the First, Last, and Only perfectly enlightened Spiritual Adept that has ever appeared on Earth or will ever appear in the future. He says that his own spiritual stature is superior to that of Jesus or Buddha. . .

Adi Da first emerged as a spiritual teacher in Los Angeles in 1972, after studying with the Indian guru Swami Muktananda and spending time as a member and employee of Scientology. Starting with a very small group of devotees who would meet with him in a bookstore, he eventually built a spiritual community known as Adidam that has properties in Fiji, Hawaii, and elsewhere around the world. Adidam is believed to have a few thousand current members. . .

Adi Da became a controversial figure when he began to have sex with large numbers of devotees, drink obsessively, abuse drugs, engage in incidents of violence against women, and financially exploit his followers. He claimed that he was doing these things “temporarily” as a form of spiritual teaching, in order to reflect devotees’ own tendencies back to them and thereby accelerate their spiritual development. However, each announcement that this “temporary” method of teaching people was ended forever was followed by another period of partying led by Adi Da. But there are only so many times one can go through a cycle like this without increasing the probability that doubts will be raised. So Adi Da eventually decided to restrict his personal interactions and partying to generally include only the small group of devotees known as his “inner circle.” Those in the inner circle serve as intermediaries in his interactions with the general membership of the community, and fulfill sensitive functions that require extreme loyalty to Adi Da. The inner circle has been perhaps the most critical piece of infrastructure Adi Da developed to enable his decades-long pursuit of every kind of fulfillment for himself at the expense of others. The inner circle’s mission has been to hide what they can of his indulgent personal life, abusive treatment of others, and psychological issues. What they can’t hide, they spin by explaining as spiritual teaching, tantric practice, or “crazy wisdom.” Or, they claim that what he’s really all about has nothing to do with his body-mind at all, which would mean that anything you could observe about his human behavior is not particularly important when compared to his alleged transcendental function as an agent of spiritual awakening. . .

Adi Da and his organization have failed to live up to the expectations that many supporters had for them in the early days.

234. brucelevy - November 28, 2008

Happy Thanksgiving
One eight year nightmare is over.

235. elena - November 28, 2008

Is something going on? Has the blog been interfered by the FOF?

236. somebody - November 28, 2008

THE CALL OF THE LOON
Apollo, November 19, 2008

“We have arrived at the point where we are not merely trying to find the esoteric message in art, but we are looking for direct and penetrating expressions that go directly to the third eye and instruct it.”

* This is a photograph of the Mayan temple at Dzibichaltun, Mexico, taken on the spring equinox. It is an incredible image, is it not? The terracotta circle represents long BE combusting. Inside the circle is the sun – divine presence itself. The tow squares on either side represent the anatomy of the sun – the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths. The temple sits upon a cube – a Kaaba. It is Egypt in the New World. * Here we are at the same site.

“Sustained thoughts are powerful, but thoughts sustained by the nine of hearts have an invincible power.” [Patricia Chancellor, Apollo]
Invincible power – the deathless Gods hovering in this room helping us to be present. * A Greco-Roman statue depicts Meter Steunene, a fertility goddess, with six children in each arm, representing the inhalation and exhalation of the sequence. The square throne represents the four wordless breaths. THe goddess’ toes have two squares around them and her feet pass outside of time. The pleats at the bottom of her robe represent the control of the passion.

“Worries vanish when we are present. The present is pleasant.” [Linda Wygal, Apollo]
* Here I am at a very nice restaurant in Palenque.

“The first three ‘I’s of the sequence lift one out of imagination; the second three ‘I’s deliver one to presence.”
The first three work ‘I’s life us from imagination; the scond three work ‘I’s lift us to God – the divinity within us. * Here we see the temple of El Tajin, which is composed of seven levels.

“‘Better’ and ;best’ contain the word ‘be’: the better is short Be, and the best is long BE” [Marco Gismondi, Rome]
* This is the double-jaguar throe in the ruined Mayan city of Uxmal, Mexico. The two jaguars, representing short Be on the right and long BE on the left, rest upon a square base. Four steps lead up to it on each side. On the left, taking a photograph, is Ansley Pierce, who has red hair, and has combusted! * A close-up of the throne shows the jaguars with four teeth and two square paws.

“We always wanted to be more present. Now we know how to do it.” [Robert MacIsaac, Apollo]
It is a very nice angle. * A Mesoamerican sculpture depicts six figures joined in a row. It is a marvelous, playful image. The first two figures on the right represent Be and Hold, with Hold comically looking around the corner at work ‘I’ number six – long BE. The third and fifth figures, representing THeme, are the same size, and look like identical twins. The fourth figure, representing Back, is leaning back. THe figures seem to be arranged in pairs, suggesting the three Be’s. THey all have gold hair, acting.

“With life, we do not judge, but l=rahter see what we can learn from it.”
* This is the German professor who was our guide to Chichen Itza, which he has been studying for over thirty years. He was an interesting person in the sense that he did not really learn anything new of value for himself. He never suspected the inner meaning of the place. I think this is what we mostly learned – the great divide between unconscious scholarship and divine presence.

“The Absolute wants very simple people. They can educate themselves in all areas later in Paradise.”
* Here we are at the Mayan archeological site of Edzna in Campeche. We made it to the top, did we not? There were more stairs to climb there than at any other site. * This is the panoramam from the top of the temple. The Mayans constructed it this way in order to rise above the jungle – the ten thousand ‘I’s.

“Everywhere one goes, one sees how much people need Influence C, and how few receive their help.”
* This is the Angel of the Independence monument in Mexico City. In the 1960’s, before our school began, I climbed to the top. Less than ten years after I met Influence C, I crystallized. It was truly “American Express”, like the sign on the skyscraper behind the monument. I became quite soiled climbing up, but, like you, I made it to the top. I said on this journey, “I think I can now put on my tombstone ‘We did it.” We received the Ten Commandments from the Gods.

“THe sequence channels suffering into presence.” [Ron Mohel, Tel Aviv]
* This is the entrance to one of the many structure at Uxmal, the Mayan archeological site. It offered us the most important message of our visit. On either side of the opening are sixty-four divisions, totaling one hundred twenty-eight, like the Hebrew prayer shawl, which has one hundred and twenty-eight fringes. We finally understood that one hundred twenty-eight represents the control of both the positive and negative parts of centers. It is a further understanding of the idea of sixty-four as the control of the passions. Influence C released that information for us. Each of the lattice-work panels has sixty-four divisions forming a square, traversed by fifteen diagonals, representing the thirty great work ‘I’s. It is quite a message. We have not yet understood why the Mesoamerican pyramids are all flat rather than pointed on top. Perhaps it signifies resting in presence – a place to rest. We saw another temple with a flat top and a disk, so we thought perhaps that it symbolizes the rising sun.

“We are graced that our lives have been enriched and stimulated to work through images and messages from the past.” [Solee Hampton MacIsaac, Apollo]
We have a bella vista – a “beautiful vista” – of every school that has preceded us, East and West. Of course, we have learned that there is no East and West for schools. *Here we are studying a stela at Coba, the Mayan ruined city. *It is the first stela one sees upon entering the site. It is the only existing object that shows the exact date of the Mayan calendar ending in 2012, and may be the only place on earth to contain the outer meaning of the Last Judgment. There it is, hidden away in Coba, south of Cancun. Influence C left it in one remote place. We will wait and see what occurs in 2012. January 1 will be here soon,m and then we are only three years away from 2012. This little stela is real mystery. Actually, it is not so little – it is about the size of the doors in the Galleria!

“The sequence makes presence more accessible.”
* These three ascending vessels in the museum in Xalapa were my favorite objects on the journey. The three bowls represent short BE, middle BE, and long BE – the three Wise Men. TOgether they have nine feet, controlling the passions. It is a very minimal message. St. Jerome said, “Good, better, best. Never let it rest. Until your good is better, and your better is best.”

“The best thing Influence C can give any school is their work. The form the work takes is quite irrelevant to actually escaping.”
* Here we are at Chichen Itza. On the t-shirt of the young man to the left are written the words “Old School”. On the right is the old man (myself) showing the four wordless breaths. Bernard Berenson said, “We all submit to the average.”

“Be is divine intervention in our internal life.”
Is it not lovely? Truly, in schools the inner meaning of divine intervention is the sequence and the four wordless breaths. However, we have both: external divine intervention – above La Venta pyramid, and early Olmec pyramid, located in Tabasco. We found a dead rattlesnake there, and I said, “This was a really rough place for the lower self to be,” as it is in our school. The lower self is in the wrong place at the wrong time in our school because we have detected him. It is a place where the snake dies.

“We must seek impressions that lend us life and invite us to be present.”
We must seek impressions that invite us to be present. Apollo is wonderful at this, is it not? It is such a beautiful place. * Here are Dorian, Asaf, and I in Uxmal, looking for the square. * This is a detail of the square on the west side. It is a little hard to see, but the roof is right above us, and in the far distance in the temple. One can stand there and see the square.

“The biggest step is emerging from imagination.”
In many pyramids the first step is the biggest, because the hardest of all things is to emerge from imagination. * The first step is to rise above the jungle with BE. * At middle Be we are further from the jungle. * At long BE, we are above the jungle of the ten thousand ‘I’s.

“Influence C are an indispensable ingredient in awakening that is beyond anyone’s control.”
Goethe said, “The Gods have given you what they ever denied to the mortals” – Gods in your life – Influence C. The inner meaning of this is that the sequence has been given what has ever been denied to the ten thousand ‘I’s * Here I am in front of the door to my hotel room. I do not know if I have ever had room forty-four in my life, but I had it this time, and they actually left a balloon outside the door, saying “Te Amo” – I love you. The door has eight divisions.

[Regarding a student who was chewing his food while listening to another student speak] “WHile eating. one cannot be present and listen at the same time. Schools have a simple formula: one plus one are two – doing one thing externally and being present at the same time; but two plus one are zero. If one is doing one thing externally and trying to be present, but then adds a third activity, it will only lead to imagination – card zero in the Tarot.”
One plus one are – unity. Two plus one is when you listen to someone speaking while s=chewing your food at the same time. You are veiled by the zero card. Gurdjieff said, “Do one thing at a time”. It is difficult to be present to one bite of food – it is a real victory. Other instinctive centers will try to engage your instinctive center in discussion while you are eating, and both of you descend into imagination. * Here we see twelve of us having snacks in Cuernavaca.

“The lower self wants you to think it is doing the opposite of what it is doing.”
It is an interesting insight. The lower self wants you to think it is doing the opposed of what it is is doing, especially when it whispers sweet little thoughts di=uring our sequence. * A Flemish illustration depicts the Temptation of St. Anthony. Here we see the lower self appearing to be innocent. The black queen is pretending to be the white queen, but her feet tell another story.

… to be continued…

237. nigel harris price - November 28, 2008

233 somebody

I have hardly heard such ‘bollux’ in the last few weeks. Some of us have to work hard at our lives and the art-form of those lives is enriched by the efforts in which we encourage people to share our dreams.

A certain interpretive difference
Awaits the twice-born.
Whitman’s heaven and hell
Give way to the first’s glory.

Litter picking/placing and decoding
Delights self and humanity.
From former form absorbed, transposed
And Earth’s imperfection more than satisfies.

Nothing goes away;
Neither poverty, hardship nor necessity.
All hangs ,deliberately placed
By angels beyond the screen.

The sun’s crime overcome,
He returns from sweeping the universe
To its limit in crashing waves,
That tell of the new Eternity.

(nhp 2003)

238. nigel harris price - November 28, 2008

Sorry 235…..Nigel

239. fofblogmoderator - November 28, 2008

231, 233 & 234 are newly moderated

240. Jomo Piñata - November 28, 2008

“Sustained thoughts are powerful, but thoughts sustained by the nine of hearts have an invincible power.” [Patricia Chancellor, Apollo]

Ah, the power of fantasy. Behold, the evil rays cannot penetrate my tinfoil helmet!

241. nigel harris price - November 28, 2008

And actually, Roberto della Fantastica, on my 52nd birthday on Monday, the number of the spoon we were given to designate the table was ’44’. It will be a showdown when we get to court. Private citizen – my arse but not your arse…..Nigel.

242. Panorea - November 28, 2008

One issue that members fail to face by repeating home made (see Galleria Gourmet…) “mantras” like the sequence, is that the so-called nine of hearts (dear Lord, I hope these terms will dissolve soon), which is actually ones Heart is getting weaker and weaker.

I have learned so much from my children, my parents, my colleagues, and the old lady who greets me every morning. I have learned so much more and I have been so much more the last month than all those years of hide-and-seek.

243. Jomo Piñata - November 28, 2008

“The Absolute wants very simple people. They can educate themselves in all areas later in Paradise.”

The confidence scheme wants very simple people who can be told what to think. They can educate themselves at their leisure when I kick off and they can’t get their money back.

244. Yesri Baba - November 28, 2008

“….but we are looking for direct and penetrating expressions that go directly to the third eye and instruct it.”

———

I’ll leave that one alone.

245. nigel harris price - November 28, 2008

244 Yesri Baba

Is it you in the Mental Health Recovery Arena? If so – “We would not wish a battle as we are, though, as we are, I say, we will not shun it” (Henry V)

EXTRACT PASTED…..

16B Thornberry Avenue EXETER Devon EX1 3HR

28 November 2008

Anna Stratton/Wendy Frost
RETHINK
44A Westexe South
TIVERTON
Devon
EX16 5DH

Firstly, Anna, thank you for coming to our Private View of ‘The Best of Six’. We seem to have done really well out of it – sales for the students, commissions for others and the prospect of other new students for APMA.

I remember, Anna, that you mentioned that there may be some opportunity of working with Wendy and yourself in the New Year, while I am in the workshop. That would be really beneficial since I seem to be putting a great deal of pressure on Dr Tanya Nelson and the team in the ‘risky’ life I seem to be leading. Funnily enough, I have an aim to finish a little booklet entitled “The Years Between” by Christmas. It is to be about my experience with the mental health authorities over my years of recovery. I feel I have the capability, and therefore a duty, to benefit the recovery of others who may not have been as lucky as I have. After all, it is not mental ILL health.

I look forward to hearing from you and have to wind up now since I am feeling a little emotional.

Yours,

Nigel Price

“Is there a Heaven?”
“Oh, yeah. It’s the place dreams come true.” (Field of Dreams 1988)

246. aline - November 28, 2008

#236 Somebody
“The Absolute wants very simple people. ”

probably the most accurate point of all this!

#242 Panorea
“I have learned so much from my children….”

Yes, sometimes what one does not for oneself, what one is able to do for others.
thanks to “the love of others”.

247. dick moron - November 28, 2008

236. somebody

“Here are Dorian, Asaf, and I in Uxmal, looking for the square.”
“Here I am at a very nice restaurant in Palenque.”
“Here I am in front of the door to my hotel room.”
“Here we see twelve of us having snacks in Cuernavaca
“Here we are at Chichen Itza. On the t-shirt of the young man to the left are written the words “Old School”. On the right is the old man (myself)”
__________________
Enlightening!
Now lucky FOF members are allowed to pay to sit through a travelogue slide show of some old pervert’s sex tour of Mexico. How awakening!

Speaking of “Old School”
Remember the old man in the Will Farrell movie of that name? Yep, that’s Bob in a few years.

Happy holidays.

248. Wondering Who’s Watching - November 28, 2008

Regarding: 203. Associated Press:

‘Fellowship of Friends – This could happen with you:

Man killed at Scientology building had church ties’

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Karmic debt attracts its own dastardly deeds as collateral damage.

249. somebody - November 28, 2008

…continued THE CALL OF THE LOON

“The present is all we have wherever we go.”
* Here are Leonid and I riding a bicycle rickshaw in Coba.

“The lower self wants to ‘discover’ the truth rather than become it.”
Many people like to look, but not to find, because it takes out the lower self. What is looking? The lower self. Jesus said, “Seek, and ye shall find.” * A Dutch sculpture depicts the devil reading the Bible. He clasps the Bible with three claws on each foot. He has four teeth. He is whispering the sequence too indefinitely to be present.

“It is either night or day – either you or the lower self – and the problem is that darkness thinks it is light.”
Darkness – the nine of clubs – thinks it is light. It thinks it is superior to presence and Influence C. * A painting by Sebastiano del Piombo depicts a Triple Portrait. In this wonderful Italian painting, the white queen has checkmated the mean-spirited black queen, placing four fingers on her breast to keep her from interfering with the four wordless breaths.

“The square is a fundamental symbol, and once one understands it, one can understand all traditions. It represents the perfect equality of the four wordless breaths.”
* Here is Asaf standing in front of the square at Uxmal. There could not be a simpler symbol for divine presence than the square with four equal sides.

“The sequence exposes the lower self.” [Henry Knapp, Apollo]
I never suspected that people would be ungrateful for the sequence. Of course, you are all very grateful for the sequence, and I am grateful for this. The sequence exposes the lower self, and this is why we lost some people. * A German painting depicts the Resurrected Christ. Christ is naked, which means that he has been purified of imagination. He stands upon the devil, crushing the lower self, like Shiva treading upon the diminutive figure beneath his teeth. He holds his staff with four fingers and has a very nice gaze, attentively supporting the four wordless breaths. The artist made Christ white, because he is, in fact, the white queen on the chessboard who has won the victory. Is it not interesting that the artist depicted the devil holding the mask of Christ? It is one of the deceptions of the lower self to pretend that he is Christ, the steward.

“The thought must occur to be present to one’s life, otherwise nothing conscious will happen.”
* Here we are in Palenque. At left is a young biy with the number ‘seventy-two’ on his t-shirt, representing the control of the passions. Jesus said, “Except ye… become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Rilke said, “Never imagine wisdom to be more than the understanding of a child.”

“The sequence has a gift for us – presence as the result of our own efforts.” [Andreas McCarty, Amsterdam]
A conscious gift. * This photograph was taken at the concert before the Saturday evening event at Lourdes Soto’s home.

“In this work, higher centers risk everything, and risk nothing.” [Rowena Taylor, Apollo]
Incredibly, to be a conscious being all you have to do is give up imagination. * Here we are ascending the monument at Coba. As the Beatles said, “I get high with a little help from my friends!” It is interesting to do this at the age of seventy. I am grateful I can do that much.

“Understanding the Mesoamerican message largely depends upon being able to bypass one’s idea of aesthetic beauty.”
It is incredible, is it not? * A Mesoamerican statue depicts a man whose head is formed of two ears, and with ‘X’s on his knees. It is a sacred massage appearing to be incredibly pagan. The two ‘X’ represent the inhalation abd exhalation of the four wordless breaths. He also crosses his arms over his heart, like Tutankhamen, although Tutankhamen does it with 240 pounds of gold, and this little figure is doing it with a rock. In fact, Tutankhamen died a teenager without a magnetic center, while it is possible that the man depicted here may have escaped. * To the right a statue at the British Museum depicts a seated pharaoh with square kneecaps. It is a much more palatable image than the Mesoamerican one. The poor quality of Mesoamerican art is one of the ways they attempted to discourage one from pursuing the message. However, we are able to bypass it and receive many answers. Egyptian art is simplicity hidden behind complexity, while Mesomaerican art is simplicity hidden behind a lack of sophistication. Shakespeare said, “Simple truth miscalled simplicity.”

“Understanding begets presence, and presence begets a new level of understanding.” [Brian Carolan, Apollo]
It seems as if that is what we are experiencing now – a new level of understanding. * A terracotta figure from the Diego Rivera Museum in Mexico City depicts a seated woman with four children. THe woman, who is in the form of a cube, has four children – one on her head and three on her breast – representing the nine of hearts supporting the four wordless breaths. The Absolute used many different external forms for the same message.

“Urgency is the fruit of identification.” [Nicola Lombardi, Naples]
It is a nice angle. The lower self tries to make himself very important in order to create a sense of urgency. * A painting by Hans Holbein the Younger Adam and Eve. Here we see the white queen and the steward veiled by the lower self. They have bitten into imagination. Speaking of the reverse, Mohammed said, “Those of you who lead the people in prayer” – Isis and Nepthys – Be and Hold – “must be brief, for behind him there are people who have urgent business to attend to” – the lower self. What is more important than being present to your life?

“The lower self does not want to solve problems – it wants to create them.”
It is a very interesting angle. The lower self does not want to solve problems – it wants to create them; whereas the nine of hearts wants to solve problems and create presence. * A ceiling painting from a church in Switzerland depicts The Third Temptation of Jesus. It is a wonderful square image. Christ shows four fingers on his right hand, with six vertical markings next to it on his solar plexus. The fingers are all of equal length, like those we see in many Egyptian images. On the scroll next to his thumb is an ‘X’. representing the Ten Commandments. The artwork is at the level of the Coptics, but the message is at the level of all schools.

“Presence seizes any opportunity to exist.”
* This photograph was taken in Tacuba, the restaurant in Mexico City we enjoy so much. Halloween is a much bigger holiday in Mexico than it is here.

… to be continued…

250. brucelevy - November 28, 2008

I was checking out the Synchronicity community. A man and his young daughter were in Mombai connected to this group and they were killed during the insanity that’s going on there.
I was reading a analysis by one crazy about the crazies in the group. I didn’t find much of real value but one line jumped out.

“For such a cheap state of consciousness one will pay an exorbitant fee at Siddha Yoga.” (that’s Synchronicity)

Just slip FOF in there instead of S.Y.

251. fofblogmoderator - November 28, 2008

247 & 248 are newly moderated

252. Daily Cardiac - November 28, 2008

Jomo Piñata – 243:

RB – “The Absolute wants very simple people. They can educate themselves in all areas later in Paradise.”

JP – “The confidence scheme wants very simple people who can be told what to think. They can educate themselves at their leisure when I kick off and they can’t get their money back.”

And the $64,000 question is “Which of these statements is true?”

We’ll all find out sooner rather than later; if not in this existence then in the next one for sure.

My advise to everyone is to live the remainder of their days to the fullest; what will be will be.

253. dick moron - November 28, 2008

RB – “The Absolute wants very simple people. They can educate themselves in all areas later in Paradise.”

Paradise is a retirement community in the Sierra Foothills not too far from the prison capitol of California, Susanville and about a 2 hour drive from Oregon House. I hear they like simple people there.

Daily Cardiac: I fear that the next existence for you will be a very long dirt-nap.

254. Across the River - November 28, 2008

236/249
somebody

It seems the blog has lost akOakaOka’s “Jack Handey” quotes enjoyed from pages back, but here we have something to replace them.

Troubling rather than funny. What a tragically static state-of-mind over the years. Even understanding how cults work doesn’t quiet the question of HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE????? I know some of these people!

255. somebody - November 28, 2008

THE CALL OF THE LOON
(the last part)

“As one becomes older, self-remembering becomes exceedingly more urgent. One realizes that there is less and less time.”
For imagination. There never was any time for imagination, but the less time you have, the less time there is for imagination. * This is the church of Nuestra Senora de la Esperanza, where Rodney Collin is buried. It is quite modern. * He is “filed away” inside one of the many cubicles. The cubicles are about thirty inches deep, and there are about two or three thousand of them. * Martin Carrion located the general area where Rodney Collin was interred and then Russian found it. His is the sixth cubicle from bottom. We borrowed some fresh flowers and placed them there. Above him the cubicle says “Morgan”. J.P. Morgan was the richest man in the world around 1900. He had mechanical wealth, while Rodney Collin has conscious wealth. Two cubicles to the left it says “Joy Smith”. Influence C are saying that Rodney Collin (Smith) is happy and grateful because he is not dead. Visiting his grave was the deepest moment of our journey. I was quite surprised. It is the only grave of a conscious being I have visited, except for the tomb of Fra Angelico in Rome. It was quite a deep experience to imagine that he is just a little urn full of ashes. * However, he used his physical body to produce his astral body, so he was there with us. He is also here with us now.

Allen Green was in Peru at the same time we were in Mexico. * He took a picture of the spot where Rodney Collin fell in Cuzco, and left six red and four white roses there. We do not know if Rodney Collin had the message, but his dedication plaque is in the from of a square with two divisions on each corner, representing the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths. It says, “Here Rodney Collin gave his life to project harmony. May 3, 1953” We can see the payment that he made for us so that we could have this information. While Asaf was boarding the plane in Mexico City, and airplane crashed. Nine people in the plane died, all of whom were government employees, including the Secretary of State, who probably would have become the president of Mexico. Interestingly, the G20 meeting of the heads of the twenty richest nations occurred in Washington this weekend. The omen may mean that all governments may fall. Every time we meet on Friday the situation becomes worse in life, and better at Apollo. One of our Mexican students, Javier Gavito, is a government official in Mexico. Javier was driving in heavy traffic. He stopped, and stepped out of his car for a moment. He heard the crash and looked up. He was four to five blocks away from the accident, and he knew the people on the plane. A week before, we were having dinner with Javier and other students, and I mentioned that we may have to do everything we can, and then just step back and watch it crash. It was a very interesting shock. These events offer quite a bit of insight into the way that Influence C work with me. Of course, they work with you in the same way.

“If we listen to one of the many ‘I’s, we open the door to all of them.”
Milton said, “What boots it to stop the foe at one entrance, and let him in at another?” We must be in permanent state of deflecting the ‘I’s * This marvelous perforated Toltec vase from Archeological Museum in Mexico City represents the nine of hearts listening to every ‘I’ that comes along. It cannot hold the sequential water of life; it is leaking. I cannot think of another image that conveys so penetratingly the idea of the nine of hearts listening to then thousand ‘I’s. Mr. Ouspensky said, “We have holes in our pockets, and do not know it.” When you listen to imagination you have holes in your pockets and your nine of hearts does not know it. * To the right the spiked incense burner represents a nine of hearts that is successfully controlling the passions. The four square petals around the rim form four passive squares in the space between them. The bottom of the burner is shaped like a vase, while the top is shaped like a cube. It is white, purified of imagination. Is it not incredible to have the privilege of understanding these images?

“The work ‘I’s are the only ‘I’s that do not say ‘I'” [Asaf Braverman, Milan]
The Mesoamericans are the Egyptians in the New World. They are a combination of the prehistoric period and of Egypt itself. There was no Greek or Roman influence. * Here we see six terracotta seated figures from Teotihuacan, Memxico, each of them forming a square with his arms. They represent the wonderful, selfless, sequential ‘I’s, each praising the Lord – the square acting.

“Even though we have a firm understanding of the sequence, it always remains our greatest challenge to apply it personally.”
* A terracotta sculpture from the Archeological Museum in Mexico City depicts six figures in a circle surrounding a central figure. They stand upon a circular base, signifying that the sequence had passed from short Be to long BE. The seventh in the middle with a square head represents seventh heaven. When Olmec children were born their parents began shaping their heads into a square. We will not be performing the outer meaning of there symbols, such as making a square head, or shaving our teeth to a point.

“Presence is Self well. The lower self is willfulness.”
It is the third eye will versus willfulness. St. Francis called his lower self “brother donkey”. It resists simply for the pleasure of resisting. In Egypt we saw two adult donkeys pulling a cart; behind it a baby donkey was digging in its feet and being dragged. It was resisting simply to resist – to express opposite thinking. Euripides said, “Second thoughts are wisest.” Two Chinese Tang porcelain figures from the Metropolitan Museum of At in New York depict a camel and a groom. At left is the steward, showing a square fist with four fingers, controlling the camel – the lower self. The camel has eighteen divisions on its sidesaddle, which may represent the lower self being controlled by the passions.

“My machine produces an ‘I’ about the future, and a work ‘I’ responded, “It is always here”
* Here I am at Chichen Itza with a square behind me.

“Real schools prepare their students to face with presence whatever the play offers them.” [Stefania Maggini, Rome]
Edward Lohmann did a wonderful job with the play he received. We were having dinner with Candice Goldman three months ago and she said, “Whatever occurs we will be ready.” She said it with wonderful strength and conviction.

“The victory must be internal and invisible.”
Influence C are internal and invisible – and immortal. * Here are Asaf, Dorian, and myself at La Venta.

“The present is all we have wherever we go.”
* Here are Leonid and I riding in a bicycle rickshaw in Coba. It is a very vast site, and it is preferable not to visiti it on foot so that you do not use up your energy for seeing the site. Candice Goldman and Maria Lucas are behind us. * My rickshaw was number twenty-one, like card twenty-one. It is the first time I can recall using human power to get around.

“Drop puts the brakes on imagination.”
What a wonderful work ‘I’ Drop is. I cannot recommend it to you highly enough. Try to make it your own. * Here are two small terracotta figures holding square shield, from the Archeological Museum in Mexico City. The figure on the right is probably long BE, because he has covered his head with a cap, like the Jews.

“When one goes through the narrow gate of the sequence, one’s perceptions are broadened by presence; but when one passes through the broad gate of judgment, one’s perceptions become narrowed and distorted.” [Leslie Lackman, Apollo]

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” [Matthew 7:13-14]
Jesus said, “Broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat” – in fact, there are ten thousand. * Here we see a wonderful narrow gate in Palenque, the Mayan archeological site in Chiapas, Mexico. One enters through a square about a meter and a half wide, and walks down ten steps. Then one has the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths.

“Without efforts to be present, the lower self will find a way to disallow presence.”
Milton called time “a subtle thief.” For both Shakespeare and Milton “time” referred to the lower self. * Here we see a temple in the jungle at Paenque. We noticed how quickly the jungle swamps the temples.

“The lower self depends quite a bit on humor and unnecessary talk do displace presence.”
SHakespeare said, “Give few thoughts thy tongue.” He also said, “We few” – BE – “we happy few”. * A sculpture from the cathedral of Chartres depicts the devil overthrowing a woman. The white queen is being thrwon over the back of the black queen – the lower self.

[Observing a caterpillar crawling along the path to the main temple in Palenque:] “It is the story of this place – the caterpillar striving to become a butterfly.”
* Here we see the caterpillar and a square leaf. It is the story of Palenque – the caterpillar becoming a butterfly.

“Without judging, one can observe that if one is not focusing on presence, whatever one is doing is the wrong thing.”
If one is not promoting presence, then one is displacing presence. * A terracotta statue from the Archeological Museum in Mexico City depicts a man placing his right hand over his left eye, covering the ten thousand ‘I’s. He is promoting presence with the three eggs in his basket, representing the three Be’s. His legs are crossed like card twenty-one.

“In my life, is I saw that there was something I could have done better, I made a mental note of it, and tried to do it better the next time. And so one eventually becomes a conscious being.”
* This photograph was taken at the Jardin de las Especias (the Garden of Spices), founded in 1976, the year in which my crystallization occurred. The rock is shaped somewhat like a square. Mexico is a very special place. When you are in Mexico City, upi are four hours from Pacific Ocean, and four hours from the Gulf of Mexico – the Atlantic Ocean. It is tropical and very fertile. There are more than 30,000 different types of corn. It is the seed bank of corn for the world. But what really makes it special is that school occurred there, and that once again its message is being resurrected by Influence C.

“We answer the sequence with our won presence.”
* Here are Dorian and I looking at two t-shirt with the numbers ‘six’ and ‘four’ on them. The more conscious one is, the less one speaks, and of course, the more one is present. Queen Elizabeth’s motto was, “I see, and I am silent.” It is lovely to be together.

256. dick moron - November 28, 2008

236/249
somebody

Let us not kid ourselves that this drivel is a real attempt to teach anything enlightening. This kind of nonsense is what Bob must do to be able to justify his sex trip to Mexico to the Internal Revenue Service of the USA. Otherwise, the expenses must come from his personal funds. He has been doing this from day one. He has simply become less creative and lazier in his old age, so this is the best”teaching” he could come up with.

“Here are Leonid and I riding a bicycle rickshaw in Coba.”

This is what you are all paying for in FOF. And probably a good ride was waiting for Leonid back at the luxury hotel.

“Here we are in Palenque. At left is a young boy with the number ’seventy-two’ on his t-shirt, representing the control of the passions.”

Yes, the words of a man who knows nothing about controlling his own lower-self passions.

Was 72 the age RB predicted years ago that he would shuffle off the mortal coil??

257. ton - November 28, 2008

thanks to all.

around 252: you know who… and up floats another turd to the surface… always reducing TRUTH to material standards,
and always stuck at an unresolved polarity:

“And the $64,000 question is “Which of these statements is true?”

and:

“We’ll all find out sooner rather than later; if not in this existence then in the next one for sure.”

personally, i would switch cults dude, at least the islamic guarantee of paradise includes 70 virgins… and what’s more, YOU CAN HAVE THAT IN WRITING.

http://www.guidedones.com/metapage/frq/islamicpar.htm

and to conclude, during a time of year for giving thanks, the shill offers this ‘advise’:

“My advise to everyone is to live the remainder of their days to the fullest; what will be will be.”

this last line exhibits a sad bit of fatalism….
hey ‘dc’ — thanks for the ‘advise’
and ‘thanks’ for another turd.

258. Jomo Piñata - November 28, 2008

Was 72 the age RB predicted years ago that he would shuffle off the mortal coil??

Yes. (The quote, which appeared in the Mount Carmel Journal series, contained the aside “which, after all, is just a moment from now.”)

259. ton - November 28, 2008

ps
‘dc’ — the turd is preferable to a steaming pile-o-bullshit which is what you usually leave.

260. veramente - November 29, 2008

210 DC
The way ex members respond to my words is telling. If you had the truth on your side so many of you would not give my posts the attention you do give them.

If I were just a “shill” I would in all likelihood simply be ignored. My content would not merit your continual refutations.They would be too lame to even bother with. They would be considered harmless to you.

It is the fact they have merit that forces you to respond to them.
________________________________________________

You give yourself too much credit.

261. veramente - November 29, 2008

194 Draco
…..”The people involved in these activities use false names, stolen identities, copyright violations, defamation, and tactics of negativity. Among other instances, Asaf’s name has been misappropriated and used for false e-mails containing vulgar profanities. Yesterday Linda Tulisso ’s name and picture were falsely used to cast her and Fellowship Management in a negative, false light and to provide a link for unauthorized access to copyrighted materials on Propylaia. It is currently known that this has now gone beyond students with visible roles, such as Asaf and Linda . It now includes stealing names of other students for use in false cyber communications because of their national origin so as to falsely deceive friends in other countries into thinking that one of their fellow student countrymen, be it from Japan, Russia, etc., is actually sponsoring negative attacks against the Teacher and the School.

As with other recent privacy rights violations, the Fellowship takes these matters seriously and reports all such matters to governmental agencies at State and Federal levels as well as in other countries and the European Community for investigation and prosecution. In recent years, the U.S. government, every State, and country have passed strong criminal laws against cyber tactics of identity theft, false representation, and anonymous annoyances and harassment of private individuals and organizations. Law enforcement agencies can trace anonymous or false messages to its source.
————————–
was this an example of pure FOF PARANOIA?

They (FOF) would be better not say a word to governmental agencies at State and Federal levels, imagine the self-made
shit storm!

262. fofblogmoderator - November 29, 2008

257 & 260 are newly moderated

263. elena - November 29, 2008

Thanks Somebody and all for your posts.

How can we fill this space
if not with flowers?

Where there were bodies without souls
there are now souls without bodies
What a strange life we’ve designed for our selves!

Nevertheless, the Public Square lives proudly,
joyfully
in the freedom to be and not to be.

I long to see you,
sit with you
live with you
so I sit and live with whoever comes
with equal joy as if it were with you.

The dream of the Community
is the Community within.

Those of you who are still inside
Talk without pretense,
look with love
feel with respect
touch with joy.

I would have loved to have had the opportunity to love each other in practice. That is what the Fellowship took away from me. Don’t let it take any more of that from you or anyone else. I wanted to be with the Americans and the Italians and the Russians, the Greek, the ….. I wanted to be with the human beings inside each Nation and we were not. The structure of the Fellowship did not allow us to be ourselves or with each other. God damm it for ever!

Life is simple
the Fellowship is pretentious
dressing is simple
the Fellowship is always disguised
being is simple
the fellowship is unnecessarily complicated to make one believe that one is doing something important. It is a trap for innocent people who think they have to pretend to be what they are not, not knowing that they already are what they are pretending to be.

Just look at yourselves and your lives. That is the work. You cannot be by throwing your lives out the window.

We, I, you, One is/are important without doing anything important. You don’t need to prove yourself to anyone. The Sun does not need you to prove yourself for it to continue shining on you.

The world is a gift.
It was and will continue to be, long after you’re gone.
Like all gifts it is there to be appreciated.
If you take care of it,
the Earth will continue to feed you and your children.
The Sun will continue to shine for your great, great, grand children.

Taking care of the World is not taking care of Robert no matter how much you’ve made him a symbol of your infinite capacity to love. There are better ways to love him than allowing him to humiliate your presence. That hurts him. We are not Kings, our nobility is not in our clothing. We are simple human beings who no longer need a king to prove our nobility. Robert is not more or less than any body else; just a human being with difficulties, like many; in fact, a little more than most. So many, that you need to be careful in his vicinity.

The Fellowship takes care of nothing
It wastes everything it receives without giving anything back
it is a black hole.

I do not write because I write well or to pretend to be a poet or a conscious being but because I need to communicate with you who I’ve lost too many times for not expressing myself.

I need you, wish you, want you, love you.
I am not afraid of needing you, wishing you wanting you or
Loving you.

Let me be with you
In this freedom to be.

To want you does not mean I want anything from you, not your body, not your soul, just to sit in the Public Square and be together like any normal citizen could be for the pleasure of your company.

264. rock that boat - November 29, 2008

Thank you, somebody
for posting the lunatic notes

same old …. same old…. same old
pathetic BS from an old man
who is desperately selling useless goods

I think the vanity of Rowena, Brian etc
is fed by the fact they they are quoted

A vicious circle that keeps them trapped

265. ton - November 29, 2008
266. Yesri Baba - November 29, 2008

“The lower self depends quite a bit on humor and unnecessary talk do displace presence.”
SHakespeare said, “Give few thoughts thy tongue.”

——————–

Yeah, save it for the ol bung holes eh unca jellylips.

267. Panorea - November 29, 2008

The other thing that the FOF takes from one is the fact that you and I met because it was meant to be. I cannot come to the right words yet, but for longer than a year I have been going around that feeling that this is part of my perception in this vast universe. Nothing is in or out, everything is part of how I perceive this world. My friends, my life in the FOF is because of what I am. It is not because of “divine influence X ” and the entire BS that we were trying to buy (correction: we WERE buying it).

I am now trying to understand what is in me that was so naïve, so desperate to be attracted to such a belief system, such a limited, restricted way of seeing life. Because sick persons like Robert Burton are supported by people like us. Robert would not have gone so far without his “older students”. Those ladies who protected him in the early years, the people with money who want to feel at peace pretending they have hired their own personal guru who keeps on reminding them how special they are and how their life is not really empty but filled with presence and a promise of paradise.

I stayed in the FOF the last years because I truly believed that this was my “school”. All the corruption, the lies, the gossip, the abuse that was going on behind the scenes and very often in front of one’s eyes would perish. Then one morning I woke up to the fact that I was involved in a filthy business; a business that kept me going in circles. The corruption is so deep, the only way to save oneself is to go away and try to recover.

* Do not wait for too long to take the step. It is a real waste of a very precious life.

268. Panorea - November 29, 2008

Here is a thought a dear friend has on his GF page. Something to think about…

“When you stop improving yourself, life improves you. In that relaxation, in that acceptance, life starts caressing you, life starts flowing through you.” Osho

269. dragon - November 29, 2008

Fofblogmoderator, Whalerider, jack ,Jomo Piñata+Daily Cardiac, elena , lauralupa, Ellen, Panorea , aline , nigel harris price,Another Name, Opus 111, ton, Crouching Tiger, Walter J. Tanner, shaman, Old Fish in the Sea, Wouldnt You Like To Know, Kid Shelleen, wakeuplittlesuzywakeup , unoanimo, Mick Danger , Draco, James Mclemore , Associated Press, Bares Reposting, peter, veramente, Across the River, rock that boat, brucelevy , Yesri Baba, somebody, Yawning Lion, dick moron,

Thank you for being alive!

Imagine all the names (mentioned and unmentioned) riding on the merry-go-round of life:

What It Is (Was es ist)

It is madness
says reason
It is what it is
says love

It is unhappiness
says caution
It is nothing but pain
says fear
It has no future
says insight
It is what it is
says love

It is ridiculous
says pride
It is foolish
says caution
It is impossible
says experience
It is what it is
says love.

Erich Fried

270. Across the River - November 29, 2008

267
Panorea

If I can pipe in, my suggestion to you is to use the Osho words and any other of the vast amounts of guiding reminders out there that speak to you for now, plus alot of rest, and maybe save the thinking for later. In my experience, it wasn’t an effective approach in the beginning, even though the thoughts flooded in.

It’s probably fair to say the process of leaving follows the standard and predictable course of cult withdrawal (you go where many have gone) as well as touching upon the deeply personal factor that you are exactly where you are meant to be. Seems most important to take your time to let many things fall away.

271. elena - November 29, 2008

Thanks Across the River for that suggestion. With all due respect, I can’t share it but thanks for posting. Your words Panorea are like balm to me! It is good to hear someone expressing so clearly the inner life of the decaying process and wishing to explore it further. And speaking with a connection to your own soul. Dialoguing.
Thank you.

“I am now trying to understand what is in me that was so naïve, so desperate to be attracted to such a belief system, such a limited, restricted way of seeing life. Because sick persons like Robert Burton are supported by people like us. Robert would not have gone so far without his “older students”.”

So naive and so ambitious. The Fellowship puts such competitive conditions to be able to participate in its life that the impulse to be is turned around and made into the race against the rest. Ambition develops together with the consistent feeling of inadequacy in relation to Robert. Most of those that manage to take a roll in the inner circle become like selected barbies for the job of consciousness but hold on to their position while closing doors to other people. The inner “mafia” of “consciousness” is such an amazing figure within a so called Spiritual Environment.

What was so naive for me was my lack of trust in myself and my willingness to overrun common sense at every step. Allowing myself to doubt myself while believing in the set up that Robert and Girard were close to consciousness. In that sense it is easy to take responsibility for my stupidity but also very easy to see how the fact that THE FACTS were silenced and concealed by the inner circle did not allow me to fully trust my common sense because it looked so good from the outside. (But no one in the inner circle looked good, they looked rotten as hell from the beginning). I just tried to excuse it with the idea that it was the human condition and that I had not gone there to judge people but to work on myself. Robert looked good, he really is a great deceiver. He was the only one that looked at ease.

So many subtleties.

272. dragon - November 29, 2008

271. elena

What’s about Robert’s Art of Seduction?

Robert E. Burton throughout the years could hardly resist to graduate in the art of seduction?!

Robert’s art of seduction, which was not only to stipulate the FOF members how people had sex, but the way people have represented sex, and attempted to control those representations.

If there is a kind of insight, it is that “sex is a universal part of our being”. It doesn’t matter when or where or with whom sex is had: sex is sex …..”

Robert’s genius links the fate of the FOF members also to the play with the p—s, which also moves up and down of its own volition.
Robert’s (Pan’s) way of seduction represents him as a “marble Hermaphrodite” impressing men and women as well.

Pan’s sperm is supposed to be in a crystallization process.

To transform it into “essence” and to use all the stimulating energy of his students in the FOF is Robert’s TEACHING LESSON. The suffering, the tears, the little presents, the traveling, the exotic turnarounds for the “happy people”, all the endless procedures on the esoteric step-ladder, food for Robert.

His male students are physical confronted with the decision to submit and to become more experienced, more conscious, …the masters?

A—-f and his fellow-sufferers victims and winners of Robert’s art of seduction.

If they become Senior Fellows in the FOF Sex grows pale or “viagratic”.

And to maintain one’s hold on power is the sex of the old agers in the FOF.

The subtle nuances of power abuse.

273. elena - November 29, 2008

Hi Dragon,

I don’t know if I’m following close enough, it sounds a lot better than it looks to me.

“If there is a kind of insight, it is that “sex is a universal part of our being”. It doesn’t matter when or where or with whom sex is had: sex is sex …..”

Do you mean a kind of insight from Robert or yours? In the Fellowship my perception is that what it was leading to was the practice of sex totally independent from feelings. The disconnectedness of sex as part of the machine from the higher self, leading to a sex for sex as part of the lower self, with the excuse that it was an outlet to Robert’s divine energy.

Feelings are in fact also part of the lower self or the machine in the Fellowship dogma so if you are hurt or joyful, hide it because you’re just identified.

To see these inner dysfunctionality express itself in the actual practices of daily life is the closest thing to what I imagine hell would be like because that frigidity, that coldness, that lack of life is what people carry around as they move about inside the tightly orchestrated structures of the Fellowship, particularly in Oregon House.

I think your perception of the marble hermaphrodite is not too much off specially at the beginning when his homosexuality was more concealed. He is “charming” (with a ten foot pole) but over time, as his mysoginy revealed itself more clearly, the blatant homosexual stepped out with minor inhibitions, like when he tried on the purple satin shoes in a meeting and it was so much for even THAT public, that he never put them on again and many subtly laughed at him almost straight at his face. But on that occasion he revealed where he wanted to go, what he really had inside of him and couldn’t let out.

For me the question is definitely important because there seem to be very different issues to look into, as a study. One is the very personal condition of a homosexual or a heterosexual, and a very different one, the fact that either one of them is abusing his power to hurt other people.

I doubt that the pattern for all homosexuals males is that they cannot have a stable partner, although the sexual drive seems to be strong enough for many of them to avoid having sex with many young men. In those terms we are not looking at too different a situation with Robert. I think the problem with Robert is how he uses the whole of the Fellowship as a provider for his personal lifestyle and THIS is what most members still inside are unable to grasp. They do not see how they are being used and have been used from the very beginning, probably because they connected so closely to the mechanism that they don’t enjoy enough distance to look at it more objectively.

We know that heterosexual gurus have abused their position just as much as Robert, but the question would be, how did those abuses reflect on the inner life of the population involved? Did the men become more macho, did the women become more feminine? What happens to the society when one individual sets such conditions? How do people start circling around the guru’s preferences? How do his preferences condition their own sexuality and once their sexuality is touched, their whole psychology changes.

In the Fellowship the widespread harm is where 80% of the damage lies. The women, who became third class citizens and deformed into tough machos and the men who became second hand sissys. Those “effects” to me are much more damaging than the many heterosexual boys who had to deal with their allowing a homosexual teacher to fuck around with them. To me, there was more damage to the boys by the member’s manipulation of the situation to get them to walk into Robert’s room than Robert having sex with them. It’s absurd to put this more or less damages, the damages are both terrible in their own context. To the boys the social damages are just as bad as the personal damages.

“To transform it into “essence” and to use all the stimulating energy of his students in the FOF is Robert’s TEACHING LESSON. The suffering, the tears, the little presents, the travelling, the exotic turnarounds for the “happy people”, all the endless procedures on the esoteric step-ladder, food for Robert.””

Again, I’m not sure we understand the same things with those words but if I get the gist of what you’re saying, “essence” in the Fellowship was literally “smiling like the Monalisa at everything you experienced within it” Not too loud, not too indifferent. You had to have “the Act” of approval or you were “OUT” of the intermediate circle.

What is interesting is that the form was “an ideal Form” if you want, so it took years to realize that where that “form” was a monstrosity was in the fact that it was meant to make us accept all the unacceptable conditionings of the Fellowship. The content was what was so corrupt, not the Form. Of course, we can question the exaggerations of the form now, all that wasted kish beauty, but we valued it because there was enough effort put into it. We valued each other’s work.

The set up is almost perfect from one angle and blatantly obvious from another.

This is a long exploration. I’ll leave it there and wait for your input since we all seem to be finding out as we go along.

274. Panorea - November 29, 2008

Hi there you Across the River!

Thank you for the suggestion. At the moment, I am having fun going fast, resting only when necessary, feeling my anger as well as joy and thinking a lot. If I make mistakes, they will be my own sweet ones.
But, really, thanks for thinking of me.

Take care.

275. fofblogmoderator - November 29, 2008

269 is newly moderated

276. nigel harris price - November 29, 2008

272 elena

I am not sure this is helpful, but I will post it anyway. I think that REB’s sexuality is ‘eclipsed’ by feature – dominance or power. For myself, I know I could not rape a woman or even feel comfortable forcing myself on one – to use a silly phrased joke, I cannot cum where I am not wanted. I do need to be emotionally comfortable before engaging in physical intimacy. My cocktail of features are naivete, vanity (chief) and fear (I believe we all have three features that involve themselves with interactions). There is also something to be said that in heterosexual sex, a woman is stronger when a male orgasms – the male is helpless in that moment. This may be why REB enjoys fellatio – he makes his male targets feel helpless and that helplessness feeds back into an emotional dependence on his feature(s). Nuff said…..Nigel.

277. nigel harris price - November 29, 2008

Sorry, 273 elena…..Nigel.

278. elena - November 29, 2008

Thanks Nigel, that’s an insight!

You raise an interesting question which is that we are not really talking about physical rape in Robert, he is not physically violent with the boys, what is disturbing about it is that they are “set up” by the whole of the Fellowship. It is a manipulation much more than a rape. It is a social set up, much more than a personal one.

As I understand, at least in the last years, the boys would not even be approached by Robert but by the other guys who would piece it together so that all Robert had to do was walk in the room where the boy was already or vice-versa.

How else would you call that if not pimping?

Nigel: “This may be why REB enjoys fellatio – he makes his male targets feel helpless and that helplessness feeds back into an emotional dependence on his feature(s)”

There’s something to that although I don’t necessarily agree with the premise for all kinds of sex. When an orgasm is experienced by both participants, not ejaculations, there is no feeling of helplessness in either party, on the contrary, the sense of unity with each other and the world at large is “redeemed”, so to speak!

Your statement though is valid. He does seem to get a kick out of making them come and feel vulnerable while he himself does not always seem to come. (It’s what some have told me).

These aspects seem to go deep into a clinical study and they are not necessarily the most relevant but when you tie the whole chain together, you can get a better picture of the connections.

I certainly believe that we can talk about healthy sex just as much as we can talk about healthy eating, or healthy living. Since this sickos ripped us off for thirty years, we might as well use them to learn something about it.

279. X-ray - November 29, 2008

Adi Da Samraj (Da Free John) and sex with devotees – was it consensual?

Posted by former devotee in 2007

” As for Adi Da, his obsessive quest for more and different kinds of sexual gratification knew no boundaries over the years. As both a voyeur and participant, there seems to have been little ground he didn’t cover in the sexual arena, with a ready supply of new female members streaming into Adidam just ripe for the pickin’.”

“To accept the idea that all of these activities were a form of Adi Da’s selfless spiritual teaching for the sake of devotees would be naïve and absurd in the extreme. However, that’s exactly what he claims. According to him, in all of this he was merely reflecting his devotees’ weaknesses and obsessions back to them in order to help free them from the egoic patterns and attachments that were holding them back from growing spiritually. ”

“However, it should be very obvious to anyone not entangled in Adi Da’s mythology that more likely he has just been exploiting his status as an “enlightened God Man” to seduce large numbers of women that were otherwise out of his league. This might not be criminal in most cases, but I would say it’s incredibly irresponsible and completely inappropriate for one who claims to be a spiritual teacher. It is deceitful. It is also inconsistent with any claim by Adi Da to have himself “transcended” obsessive sexual fixation as the first perfectly enlightened human being in the history of this planet. His endless search for sexual adventure, just like his obsessive personal use of poppers (amyl nitrate) doesn’t square up with his teachings about regenerative sex practice or with the idea that he was doing anything different than just getting himself off and in the process using sex to establish his dominance over everyone.”

“Secondly, Da displays a pattern of reckless or careless indifference to the impact of his actions on those he claims to be teaching. He is all too willing to create disastrous effects in the lives and emotions of others, and then rarely attempts to help people work through the resulting mess he made for them. If his actions were really intended as a form of teaching, rather than a reflection of his own tendencies, he would at a minimum want to know what kind of effects he was creating for people. ”

“Perhaps the most important question that can be asked about Adi Da’s crazy wisdom activities is how effective has it been in transforming the lives of devotees and the world as a whole? Has it produced the intended effects in terms of spiritual growth and enlightenment for those involved? Where are the enlightened and transformed devotees who have benefited from 30 plus years of association with this powerful God-Man and what are they doing now? After all this time we still don’t see boatloads of radically transformed beings, or even any at all — at least none that are visible to an observer on the outside. People in Adi Da’s group have just aged and mellowed a bit, stuck in a dependent relationship to a man who has limited them, rather than liberated them.”

“A good example of this was the situation many of us know about when Adi Da told D.G. to perform oral sex on three of his friends. She was uptight about oral sex due to having been forced to perform it on an adult neighbor when still a child. After the three blowjobs in a row were performed, Adi Da himself had sex with D.G. and told her to leave his house. She had to sleep in a car in a parking lot and cried all night, and Adi Da never followed up with her to see what the impact of his actions were. How is it teaching to have sex with a scared and trembling woman, then throw her out of the house and never speak to her again? Adi Da was not failing at teaching people in situations like these, he wasn’t even trying to teach them. He was just entertaining and gratifying himself and enjoying the immense power over others than only God-Man status could bring.”

http://www.adidaarchives.org/adi_da_sexual_consent.htm

280. elena - November 29, 2008

Nigel, I meant to mention that that was very helpful. Thanks for being so tuned in.

281. nigel harris price - November 29, 2008

278 elena

I actually think REB is afraid of being alone. I live alone in my apartment and do not have a female ‘partner’, although I have many ladyfriends. Probably something about being Solar in Essence. When I look back over the years, my creative (sex?) energy has been spent on either designing or creating my craftworks. Funnily enough, the blog has become a much more social outlet for me than I thought it would. Probably, like most posters, there are days when posting seems out of place and I do not do it, but I feel the necessity of continuing with the aim of having the termination of the FOF swiftly resolved. I am not one for idle chat – I am involved with a business in my life, for God’s sake. Let’s hear from you all…..Nigel.

282. elena - November 29, 2008

Nigel,

I think we are all pretty lonely people in need of others. More than a loneliness it is like a feeling of misplacement, as if we didn’t fit anywhere. And that is what is even more deeply exacerbated by the Cult life.

The more I look at all the upper and middle upper class people I know, the more depressed they all seem to be. Something like dogs or cats who can’t find the right angle to sit and turn round and round in circles looking for ourselves with an anxiety of being that I cannot find in people with low income who still have a strong essence.

I call it “the rich man’s low” and think of it as a symptom of our times.

Why get impatient with us or yourself? We’ll be lucky if we can sort half of our share by the time this lifetime is over.

Rich Latins seem to have it particularly strong because they disenabled their own doing using servants for most of their personal care and that seems to worsen the condition, while Americans like Robert are also way out there but the other Americans like Girard seem to be convinced that they can compensate by doing everything themselves not allowing for anyone to give or receive. I don’t know enough Europeans but there seems to be a little more sense of life there and yet it is as if they had crystallized in the old forms and couldn’t get themselves into the freshness of life.

I’m talking about tendencies. There is, of course, great vitality in each “trend” but it is good to look at the overall picture to observe how one is one’s self, behaving under the same conditionings.

In a way you can see things when you look at the way the traffic functions in different parts of the world. In Europe you can’t move a hair out of the pattern because the whole nation will jump at you. In the States, the pattern is so perfectly designed that what matters is how the cars move, to hell with the people and in places like Colombia it is as if the cars were an excuse to insult each other. You honk at the wrong man and you just might get shot! but at the same time, like in India, everyone tolerates the two drivers talking in the middle of the street as if they were in their sitting room, the cows, the horse carts, the men with their fruits and piles of avocado.

It is good to observe where some are tight and others relaxed and how that connects with both the personal and the social outlook.

283. Across the River - November 29, 2008

274
Panorea

Freedom IS exhilirating! Good for you…..isn’t it amazing to know it’s been waiting all this time! Best to you (little bird?)

284. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

281 elena

Thanks for that – it was an ‘eye-opener’…..Nigel.

285. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

273, 278, 279, 281 elena

Your recent posts have stimulated my ‘thinking capabilities’ to such an extent that you have me up in the middle of the night (our time), willing to respond to them.

Perhaps your mentioning the area of loneliness is of prime importance. My dad came from a lower-middle class family and has worked his way through the banking arena to be extremely comfortably off in his old age. My mum was an upper-middle class Scot (the family had servants) and they met while both were working ‘on the Queens’ (the ocean liners). My mum was, in fact, a queen of hearts Mars-Jovial. Now my dad (since my mum passed away in 2001) has married a queen of clubs martial (just like HIS mum) and his ‘needs’ are all taken care of. In fact, I cannot completely forgive my dad for losing his patience with my mum, when she was suffering from dementia in her final years on this planet and could not take care of herself, let alone him. He was even prepared to have her put in a home, so that someone else could take care of her! Whatever happened to ’til death us do part’?

As for me, I am the eldest of three brothers and only the middle one is married (with two teenage boys). My little brother works for British Airways as an IT consultant and drives a BMW. Although he was an ‘eligible bachelor’, I think he ‘fell through the net’ as far as women were concerned and never really (like me, I suppose) got into a serious relationship. He is very ‘sporty’ and has an active life. My history has been posted previously on the blog, in as much as I was at art college when I met the FOF. I was dead-scared that getting into a relationship and being married in the FOF would lead me away from my aim of becoming a top-class precious-metal worker. Whenever the possibility of a relationship occured, it was a case of A loves B and B loves C (as Gurdjieff put it). I thought that rich women with a ‘soft-spot’ for an impoverished artist would be the ones to be involved with. To be honest (and here is an admission), I had to content myself with brief, although not unhappy ‘interludes’ with ‘life-ladies’. God, at least I felt like a normal male. So I have been single most of my life. At the moment, my age and the fact that the anti-psychotics reduce the sexual urges, mean that my centres do not feel as ‘off-balance’ as they used to.

C—–a H—n once remarked that there was something to be said for my being attracted to strong women. I think it is just that I really like people of substance (and I do not, by this, mean having obvious active features being predominant in their lives). I have wasted and have had my time wasted (seemingly) by the ‘play’, in the years from my returning to the UK, but now find myself as an owner of a thriving craft business, coming into the end of its first year of operation. If a relationship should come my way, I am ready for it – if it does not, then that is the wish of the Gods (no, REB, you do not have exclusivity in that area!)…..Nigel.

286. elena - November 30, 2008

Sounds wonderful Nigel, go find the one you like and don’t be afraid of seducing her and letting all the charm inside of you get to her!
Love will make you grow diamonds in her heart!

287. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

285 elena

Thanks love! I’ve always wanted to set some real diamonds…..Nigel.

288. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

285 elena

Just as an aside…..remember how the FOF made us feel we had an obligation in the area of relationships – get married, get pregnant, get rich, get happy…..I DON’T THINK SO!…..Nigel.

289. peter - November 30, 2008

Somebody,
Read this.

*************************************************
License Plates Psychology
*************************************************
Of license plates you can make whatever you want to make.
Prove whatever you want to prove.

R3 ANGL 7
“can mean 3 are, G,O & C are incomplete man number 7”

but you can also say or ‘prove’.

R3 ANGL 7
“robert is an man number 3 but from his angel things he is a number 7”

*!* It is just what a fool believes *!*

Is it possible that the ‘C’ in influence C as mentioned by RB in the movie stands for ‘crazy’?

290. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

Hey, Elena!
Remember I mentioned this ‘not being in a relationship’ thing and having to live alone. Funnily enough, I have been up all night sorting through my business receipts and will find other quiet ‘householder’ activities until Melvyn and Carole downstairs get up. Maybe that is what it can be – HOUSEHOLDER AS A ‘BEING BY YOURSELF WITHIN THE REALM OF THE UNIVERSE’. What do you think?…..Nigel.

291. whalerider - November 30, 2008

“The work ‘I’s are the only ‘I’s that do not say ‘I’”
Asaf Braverman, Milan

Aye, now there’s an I for an eye.

Thought Reform 101: take no ownership of your work; do not trust yourself; believe only what you are told.

“My machine produces an ‘I’ (a thought) about the future, and a work ‘I’ responded, “It is always here….Here I am at Chichen Itza with a square behind me.”
Robert Burton, LaLa Land

“You have to think about your future”, said Burton on the phone to a follower who is considering leaving the cult.

Daily Cardiac…Here’s the real $64,000 question…how simple minded do you have to be in order to comprehend that Burton in print is a far cry from Burton in the flesh? (That’s a trick question.)

“No sense makes sense.”
Charles Manson, San Quentin Prison

292. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

290 whalerider

I had been thinking, over the past few days, about REB and “What the hell does he actually DO?”. The fact is he farts about Apollo and the ‘places to be’ on Planet Earth DESCRIBING HIMSELF! Is this not what Narcissistic Personality Disorder is all about? Nothing pretending it is something…..Nigel.

293. fofblogmoderator - November 30, 2008

279 is newly moderated

294. dragon - November 30, 2008

273. 273. elena – November 29, 2008
Hi Dragon,

“If there is a kind of insight, it is that “sex is a universal part of our being”. It doesn’t matter when or where or with whom sex is had: sex is sex …..

Do you mean a kind of insight from Robert or yours?”

It is a kind of insight from life. I don’t know if Robert with his Persona’s (in the sense of C.G. Jung’s words), in that respect perhaps mirages or distorted pictures [for his conscious school] of the unspoiled pan, feels that insight.

Pan is famous for his sexual powers, and is often depicted with an erect phallus. Pan’s parentage is unclear.

But let me fantasize:

His father Hermes transfers the dreams with its messages from Zeus to the human beings. Hermes is the interface between the higher (gods/goddesses) and the lower (mankind/earth).

You may look at Hermes. The Greek Myths survived for so long because they wrap esoteric knowledge.
The figure Hermes as an example transported in his myths parts of this esoteric knowledge.

Since ancient times the storytellers pass on and whisper their myths with racy and mysterious details.

The stories of Hermes contain data and knowledge and the unconscious of the human beings is the store.

Children absorb stories and myths with passion but they are not able to interpret this knowledge until they reach out for a certain degree of maturity or consciousness.

Esoteric schools can be interpreted in a metaphor as agglomerations which enable “students”/”seekers” to decipher those data and to do practical “work” with it.

You may choose a teacher or a school: He/it will inform you (FOF/ esoteric Channels/New age shaman/Catholic church and all the other religions/cults/plants/breathe/drugs/remedies/ art/jogging/tantra/archery/books/E-books…)

A sincere teacher will take you on his way and he will give you his decoding.

He knows the data are available for all human beings because they lie around and he knows that some people don’t need an interpretation because they are able to look at and to hear and to smell and to feel the real master: LIFE.

Let me go back to Hermes. Hermes is the father of pan. Pan’s mother is afraid of the appearance of Pan.

She turns the son away. It is Hermes, who takes the little child and accepts his son despite the fact that he appears below the navel like a “Billy Goat”.

He takes Pan to the Olympus. The Gods and Goddesses are cracking jokes with him but finally Pan has to leave the Olympus.

It is for the second time that he experiences the feeling of the outcast.
He symbolizes the prehistoric man to be at the mercy of nature. How to survive?
The flight (symbolized in Pan’s hare fur given by his father Hermes: “flight” as a shelter) or aggression. The two basic behavioural pattern of the prehistoric man.

Flight and aggression are the leitmotif of the pan myths.

Pan is searching “love, sex and confidence” but the nymphs shun his attempts.

They, the nymphs (represent the lowest layers of the human consciousness) beg for salvation and the gods save them.
They, the gods turn the nymphs into plants and downgrade them. Now they failed on their EVOLUTION.

They didn’t stand the test of the gods ( AND this is DC’s and Girard’s point of view if they tell you: You are leaving the FOF, OK you were not able to understand and to stand the test/work).

Pan is the element force and life will not go on if I push away the power of creation.

Life on earth would resist on the level of single celled organisms if we refuse this force (but yes we can clone, yet).

In ancient Egypt Hermes is Thot, he is also the father of Pan and he teaches Isis..

Elena, I don’t know if Robert teaches literally the use of SEX as a vehicle for his Boys towards consciousness.

NIGEL,ELENA and WHALERIDER thank you very much for your refined and great posts.

I like myths.

295. Jomo Piñata - November 30, 2008

279, posted by X ray, is really good. People should read it.

296. whalerider - November 30, 2008

“The Call of the Loon”

An apt title!

From Wikipedia:

A lunatic (colloquially: “looney” or “loon”) is a commonly used term for a person who is mentally ill, dangerous, foolish or unpredictable: a condition once called lunacy.

“One of our Mexican students, Javier Gavito, is a government official in Mexico. Javier was driving in heavy traffic. He stopped, and stepped out of his car for a moment. He heard the crash and looked up. He was four to five blocks away from the accident, and he knew the people on the plane. A week before, we were having dinner with Javier and other students, and I mentioned that we may have to do everything we can, and then just step back and watch it crash. It was a very interesting shock. These events offer quite a bit of insight into the way that Influence C work with me.”
Robert Burton

Magical Thinking 101

From Wikipedia:

“Magical thinking is a common phase in child development. From the age of a toddler to early school age children will often link the outside world with their internal consciousness, e.g. “It is raining because I am sad”…[Magical Thinking] explains why two independent chains of causation intersect. Thus, from the point of view of the practitioners, magical thinking explains what scientists would call “coincidences” or “contingency”. From the point of view of outside observers, magical thinking is a way of making coincidences meaningful in social terms. Carl Jung coined the word synchronicity for experiences of this type….Another form of magical thinking occurs when people believe that words can directly affect the world….Magical thinking is often intensified in mental illnesses …It contributes more to peace of mind, in that the person now feels they can engage in a risky activity more safely….There is a correlation between psychosis and magical thinking. It has been found that those who scored highest on magical thinking showed a predisposition to psychosis (Eckblad & Chapman, 1983).

Richard Feynman suggested, in his “Cargo Cult Science” speech, that scientists may fall prey to a form of magical thinking as well as laypeople. When experiments are poorly controlled and not repeated, or reporting bias dominates, scientists may “fool themselves” into believing insignificant results significant. If enough flawed work is done in a field — then further experiments may devolve into a set of unfounded rituals. In short, methods that are scientific may be used to generate results that merely seem scientific. Just as cargo cultists create mock airports that fail to produce airplanes, cargo cult scientists conduct flawed research that fails to produce useful results. Feynman cautioned that to avoid becoming cargo cult scientists, researchers must first of all avoid fooling themselves, be willing to question and doubt their own theories and their own results, and investigate possible flaws in a theory or an experiment. He recommended that researchers adopt an unusually high level of honesty which is rarely encountered in everyday life, and gives examples from advertising and politics to illustrate the everyday dishonesty which should be unacceptable in science. Feynman cautions that “We’ve learned from experience that the truth will come out.””

>>>>>><<<<<<

“The square is a fundamental symbol, and once one understands it, one can understand all traditions. It represents the perfect equality of the four wordless breaths.”
Robert Burton

This is a perfect example of Burton thinking inside the box of Euclidian geometry, which imo is a limitation of his immature intellect.

In hyperbolic (non-Euclidian) geometry, squares with right angles do not exist. A visible property of hyperbolic geometry is exponential growth which is seen naturally occurring in cell division.

IMHO, non-Euclidian geometry is closer to objective truth.

From Wikipedia:

“Today, however, many other self-consistent non-Euclidean geometries are known, the first ones having been discovered in the early 19th century. It also is no longer taken for granted that Euclidean geometry describes physical space. An implication of Einstein’s theory of general relativity is that Euclidean geometry is a good approximation to the properties of physical space only if the gravitational field is not too strong.”

A square is a primitive and flawed attempt at containing nature in a box…another unconscious manifestation of Burton’s dominance feature despite the symbolic association with the number 4.

I repeat:

“Magical thinking contributes more to peace of mind, in that the person now feels they can engage in a risky activity more safely…”

Enough is enough. Let’s drain the vicitm pool. Let’s send the petition to France and Belgium. There are anti-cult laws there.

297. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

294 dragon

SEX (3 letter word) is the invisible impulse of LOVE (4 letter word), the visible manifestation. In many religious teachings (and even Gurdjieff touches upon this) there has to be ABSTINENCE before anything physical is entered upon. The fact is, SEX is infectious – the more one engages in it without COMPASSION (a ‘higher’ form of LOVE), the more one wants its PHYSICAL NATURE. REB cannot control himself and therefore imposes his LUST UPON HIS ‘VICTIMS’…..Nigel.

298. Mick Danger - November 30, 2008

Unoanimo said “Real Teachers are quite different.”
Yes, for one thing they don’t recruit followers.

For all you artists (especially Mr. Price) from Meher Baba:

“Art is one of the sources through which the soul expresses itself and inspires others. But to express art thoughoughly, one must have the inner emotions opened completely. If you feel something check you from expressing yourself, then you have to do one thing – that is, to adjust your mental attitude. Just before expressing, think, “I can and will express it thouroughly,” and evey time you express it, you will find you are more convinced of your expression. It is the mind that keeps it closed. There are many actors who either through inferiority complex or through nervousness or though dryness feel they cannot express, and this feeling of mind check the expression. While acting, think that you are one of the greatest actors of the world, and try to express yourself thoroughly. I will help you spiritually. Just think you are the greatest. Where’s the harm in thinking like that? It is not for pride that you do it, but for bringing the best out of you.
There is nothing wrong.”

299. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

298 Mick Danger

Welshmen have an uncanny ‘knack’ of making great actors. There were only two things at school at which I was good and wanted to make a living at – design and acting. I think I will ‘rise to the occasion’ in the way Meher Baba said one should, when we get REB in court and I testify for the prosecution against him and the FOF…..Nigel. (P.S. Thanks for passing on the advice)

300. elena - November 30, 2008

Thanks X-Ray for 279, it certainly elucidates the point. It is shilling how close it is to Robert Burton and yet it is interesting that we’ve never heard of an account of Robert doing something like the car thing to any of the boys. He simply discards them when he’s over with them, sends them to centres or puts them away in the closet in a little job at Renaissance where he can dispose of them whenever he feels like it.

The Fellowship is filled with men like that and I suppose that is a lot of where his “success” lies.
Wouldn’t it be in that sense that it is a highly refined brothel?
Is the fact that there doesn’t seem to be any physical violence, the reason while most members cannot perceive the fact that they are being equally submitted by a mind control milieu?
Where is then, the “violence” in the Fellowship of Friends Cult?
Why is it so harmful?
How does it mine people’s integrity?
What is it really raping if not the body?
What is each member’s message to the boys by simply being present to the events?
Or by simply belonging to the Fellowship even if they never go to events?

Dragon,
Much enjoyed your flight into myths. There’s certainly a lot of that in the subconscious of each member’s participation in the FOF. I was an adult when I joined and had an idea of what my responsibilities were when I got there so I tried to live on the many underlying presumptions and unconscious paradigms that such principles underlie, particularly the idea that I was responsible for my self and my state. I completely believe the Cult takes advantage precisely of that. It took that many years (17) to understand that everything that happened inside threatened us as social beings and in doing so it corrupted us individually.

The Fellowship lives on the premise of individuality because it has centred its inner practices for each individual in their personal, selfish drive to work on themselves and only on themselves and its social practices on idolatry for a King-God. If you look at it graphically there’s an individual at both ends, not a community and community or social or human life “disappeared”. It is the selfish race of each individual against his own predicaments to idolize the King-God to be allowed to participate. It works perfectly. It is a vicious circle in which the individual member is fighting his own natural impulses that have been restrained and replaced by practically serving and idolizing the symbol of that success, the King-God.

Robert uses the System to make members believe that what they are working against is their passions, their excesses, their weaknesses but what members are really working against is their own strength: their humanness. The soul impulse to be one with the rest through ones work is channelled towards the rigid discipline to physically work in third line jobs for the “Arc”, which replaced in the FOF, “humanity”, and in practice became ONLY WORK FOR ROBERT’S AGENDA. His dinners and events in which the support of the members is telling each other and the boys that this is a legitimate School of Consciousness. The “Form” is “perfect”; it’s the content what has been corrupted so drastically.

This would explain why I and everyone else could not see through the form into the content and simply got on the current and tried to do everything everybody else was doing. We were convinced that we were working for the Arc, humanity, by making extreme sacrifices that would lead us to our own development. In practice, it made depressed wrecks of most of us or pressured many to divide into hasnamoussess, or split personality beings, like Girard, who do not know their left from their right, or the deception from the enlightenment. They are the worst victims but we have all suffered tremendous deformations of our spiritual or psychological structure.

It “works” because it is “playing” with real impulses in our unconsciousness, manipulating them in such a way that it tricks the members to cooperate convinced they are working for truth rather than for the personal set up of the Guru, in this case, Robert Burton.

In hurting the natural expression of the “human impulses” to be “one with the rest” or to participate freely in the life of the community, as the Fourth Way or the Way of Life implies, for it is meant to develop in a social environment, it renders the disciple or member, useless to his personal development but very profitable to the Cult. It diminishes the strength of Real I in the member who looses contact with him self or her self but becomes a tremendously efficient enabler.

This would explain why members like Girard simply throw their personal lives away justified by the idea that they are working for a Conscious Teacher in a Conscious School. They have lost the connection with their own humanity and are convinced that the highest within demands that they sacrifice everything to the School and the Teacher.

(This is wonderful, this is what I think we but if you wish I’ve been trying to piece together for two years. Let me continue to explore here.)

As the Fellowship closed in and separated from life, the premises for the work took elements from other paths of development and used them against the members. The relation to the Teacher which in the Fourth Way should naturally come to the relationship with one’s own Real I and it’s strengthening that develops through the trust that the practice of self-remembering should bring, corrupted, extroverted and turned into the blind commitment to The Teacher, Real I was replaced by submission to the King God, the dictator, the Authority, Robert Burton and his personal agenda became the aim of the “Fourth Way Practices”. This is why second line never developed in the FOF Cult and instead a pathological practice of third line in which all efforts were channelled towards Robert Burton’s lifestyle took such gigantic proportions and made of the whole establishment a sophisticated, gold alchemy, king of hearts environment for the boys and the money to walk straight into Robert’s circle.

Can you see it?

To be able to see it clearly, the dimension of humanness cannot be too corrupted which is why members still in today cannot grasp it. They are still convinced that they are sincerely working for humanity for an “abstracted humanity” an idealized image of humanity, represented in Robert’s choice of dogma through the forty-four conscious beings and ancient cultures, which is his “bait” for the member’s soul or human impulse. The whole false “spiritual tourism” that Robert has developed in the practical lives of members, taking them to Egypt and scrubbing their brains with cheap dogma is meant to replace their most inner spiritual reach for a human connection that can justify their effort. But while ancient Egypt or ancient Greece become the “ideal” School, the actual human beings that take them on the tour are nothing but “sleeping machines”, part of the six billion dead people on the planet, reinforcing the secession between themselves and mankind.

In every aspect of its practical and theoretical life, the Fellowship of Friends Cult is promoting the division into two personalities of the members. It is expertly developing hasnamoussess. Do you realize how dangerous this is for humanity? For each person that comes into contact with any one of these Hasnamoussess? How far, that is, how many generations are we from conceiving of human beings as the living dead and actually killing them? If what the Hasnamouss has to do to become one is suicide spiritually to his actual life to be able to adopt the Cult’s curriculum, how difficult is it for the Hasnamouss to kill that same soul he has renounced to, in other people? How difficult is it for him to conceive that boys are actually being sexually abused, since he has raped his own soul?

To be able to understand the Hasnamouss, I think we need to be able to understand that he has “sacrificed” his own self and therefore requires that others make the same sacrifice. One only treats others as badly as one treats one’s self. The raping of the boys is in that mythological sphere not different from the sacrifice of the lambs. And no less brutal. The Cult has to reduce people’s humanity to prove that they have given up their “self”. Individually, the “separation” within the individual’s humanity and his divine self, allows him to indulge in denigrating sexual acts and socially denigrating practices which belong to his lower self but are conceived of as an expression of his own sacrifice to the divine no matter how denigrating they are to the physical human and the human spiritual.

Peeing on the boys is no less denigrating than speaking to a multitude of people for thirty-five years without ever listening to them. Is Robert going deaf? He should be going deaf because he does not want to hear. Idolatry does not allow him to stand as an equal to other human beings.

Each of Robert’s personal practices is as denigrating as his entire social practices for the people involved. The fact that members don’t perceive how they are being humiliated simply shows the extent to which they are indoctrinated to place a set of beliefs that translate the humiliation into a justifiable act by the idolized being.

The relation to the guru of the members is no different to the relation of a whore to her pimp who uses her to take money from her and she is usually “in love” with him. She allows for that situation because she does not have enough of herself to depend on. It requires a great deal of self- trust to not allow others to use one physically, emotionally or intellectualy if one’s being, one’s self is dependent on them. We can each verify that pattern in the multiple relationships of dependency that we’ve each experienced. The I is not the same as the functions. We’ve tended to think of being emotionally dependent to others but the emotional dependence is simply an expression of the submission of the “I” to another’s “I” making all the functions or the centres dependent on that person. This dependence in the realm of the “I” or ego is what allows for the development of idolatry or submission to any kind of authority. Until we each begin to trust our own I and it’s existence, and the functions as the expressions of its own condition, we will continue to develop all forms of dependence on others. Freedom from spiritual and physical slavery is an aspect of a mature human being.

I thank you all for helping me understand this phenomenon a little better each day.

301. dragon - November 30, 2008

297. Nigel

That’s it Nigel!

And that’s IMO a part of the dark FOF- Equipment.

Without compassion the active force of life will be misdirected.
A perverted way of a “conscious school”.

Life(4)/and 3/and 4 are precious.

What is the wisdom of the FOF school?

302. nigel harris price - November 30, 2008

300 elena

Have to say I am getting used to your long posts with ‘umph’. There was a time not so long ago when all long posts were difficult for me to deal with. I think it was because the energy I was spending on my little craft-teaching business left me little available energy for the intellectual and emotional attention needed to properly absorb the blog. Now as we come towards the Season of Celebrating the Super-Intelligent Light of the Universe being born into the World and Mankind’s Consciouness may we all celebrate our Humanity. My little booklet “The Years Between” is going for editing this week, so if you want a copy, you can email me on aprhys@nigelprice.net and give me your mailing address or PO Box number. Any donations you care to make for receving a copy will go to the local mental health charity work…..Nigel

303. fofblogmoderator - November 30, 2008

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