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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 53 October 23, 2008

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

To visit the site created by Unoanimo:http://fellowshipoffriends.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/res-ipsa-loquitur/

Comments

1. Josiane - October 23, 2008

DC 281 (Part 52):

“He certainly knew you would notice his cool reception to your question and also notice his more joyous response to the student mimicking him. But these are exactly the kind of things that are minuscule in comparison to the issue of escaping.”

I escaped all right. If you add up all these “kind of things” that seem “minuscule”, they grow into something large until you finally get the picture, like a Seurat.

“In my opinion he was lavishing you with attention that night.”

If this “lavishing” is RB’s way of showing his love for his students, I would rather be without it. That approach has the stamp of a school of denial but I thought we had joined a school of love!!!

2. veramente - October 23, 2008

DC 281 (Part 52):
“In my opinion he was lavishing you with attention that night.”
—————————-
DC, how can someone be lavishing and be rude at the same time?
Your are making things up, like I did while I was a member.
I made up a bunch of dreams and found “signs” everywhere.
Until I was as empty as you cannot possibly imagine.
I became a ghost and my soul was screaming to get me to pay attention.

3. veramente - October 23, 2008

The FOF is a very dark place full of shining glitter: Gold’s Fool in fact.
Cha-cha-cha-chain of fools….

4. veramente - October 23, 2008

5. Ill Never Tell - October 23, 2008

53/~#3. veramente – October 23, 2008:

‘The FOF is a very dark place full of shining glitter:’

Sequins, dear veramente, sequins. The kind that Aretha Franklin might have worn on her clothing to make it sparkle and shine in the stage lights while she performed. It looks like sparks! Yes, it is so close to hell that you can see sparks.

6. Daily Cardiac - October 23, 2008

Unoanimo – 290:

“What I feel in your posts, IMO, is ‘me’, though a ‘me’ that’s a memory; I remember ‘me’ well, it was about 10 years ago when I would hear anything critical about Robert, immediately there was something inside me that would go into ‘defense mode’ (automatically) and this ‘Army of One’ was a paramount, subconscious requirement for a Man#4 and to stay that way, BTW)…

“Later I would learn that I was not defending Robert or the School, but rather my subconscious dependence on a crutch, a very serious crutch:”

“The defending of Robert went deep, cosmically deep and later I would find that ‘defense’ of left-brain-affirmative-icons also equated with a vast subconscious jungle of control, fear, a need to be important to others…”

Unoanimo, you suggest I am defending Robert/FoF, my own fears, yet if someone who had no stake one way or the other in these matters read my words I’m quite sure they would not find anything inherently more “defensive” in them when compared to your words or anyone else’s on the blog. You write from your beliefs and I write from mine.

My words sound defensive to you only because my truth is not your truth, so you assume I must be covering up something. But RB or the FoF do not need me to defend him/it. If RB is an enlightened being and the FoF a conscious school no mortal need defend them as they are in excellent hands, and I am certainly aware of that.

On the other hand, if RB is a fraud and the FoF a destructive cult nothing I say could possibly be offered as a defense and I am also aware of that. You project a defensiveness that is merely me sharing my experiences as truthfully as the next guy.

What strikes me as odd is how absolutely sure some former members are regarding just what RB and FoF are. They have eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong in their assessment (I know this from their own words). And yet I know none of them are close to knowing my reality so I wonder how they can possibly know Robert Burton’s reality.

Whenever someone becomes convinced they cannot err you have the makings of a dangerous individual, dangerous to others but more so to themselves. This “all knowing” mentality is at its root the basis of self-delusion, where “my reality” morphs into Reality, but this Reality exists only in one’s own mind.

Are these former members suggesting they have acquired objective understanding? If so how did they come by it? It’s obvious they did not possess it at the time they joined the FoF because if they are correct they could not distinguish a cult from a real school at that time. It must also be true (if they are correct) that they did not obtain O U in the FoF because destructive cults do not possess it to start with.

Yet somehow they came out the other side of the FoF experience in possession of some degree of objective understanding in order to be so sure they’ve got it all figured out right.

I have no problem with anyone sharing their beliefs, but I think it’s reasonable and admirable to qualify one’s viewpoints by inserting from time to time an “In my opinion” (which you did once in this post) or an “As I see it,” – but not just write it for politeness but really remind oneself that this is the way it goes with most of us.

That would keep us more on the straight and narrow, in my opinion.

You talk of dire times for the FoF but as I experience things the school has never been more healthy and vibrant. It’s true some good friends have departed lately, and at a greater frequency than before. But I see it as a healthy process. I’ve generally thought of this area in the following way: the school has a definite amount of spaces or vacancies and when they are filled no one else can enter. Whenever someone leaves a space is created for another who is ready and able to step into that space. I frankly don’t pretend to know what process someone experiences who leaves after 30 years, but it happens, and will happen again.

I do meet newer students all the time, some who have 2 or 3 years in and they never cease to amaze me with their understandings and enthusiasm. It’s the play for some to give a lot and take a lot and then depart. Then others come. Some don’t leave; they just end their role, and again others come.

7. Draco - October 23, 2008

DC, there’s that funny logical trick of yours again. Unoanimo describes how he used to defend the FOF, and he feels that you are doing the same also; you then reply that if an outsider read this blog they would find everyone equally defensive. Do you see how your reply has stopped you from looking into the meaning of what Unoanimo said? You have simply responded with a fallacious formal of argument, what we used to label “formatory”. Few of us are defensive on this forum–we’re attacking not defending! Do you really think that an independent outsider would conclude that your interpretation of Josiane’s experience at dinner with Robert is as good as hers, especially as you weren’t there?
I simply don’t bellieve your, “Here I am, open to all possibilities, simply representing my own experience and belief system while ex-students are trapped in their certainties.” It looks to me like it’s simply a mode of argumentation because your absolute certainty in the FOF is unacceptable outside of the organization.
In conversation I can be much more nuanced than I am in this forum, but your bull-in-a-china-shop approach requires a tough response.

Anywa, anothher story, a little similar to Josiane’s I was standing at the market on the property talking to someone when Robert walked along, gave his love to the man i was talking to and completely ignored me. So I was thinking, why did Robert ignore me? Was it because I didn’t try to be present? No, I did. Was it because I didn’t show him respect? Was I too eager to be noticed by Robert? None of these seemed to fit. So I dropped my questioning. It was only much later that I saw the other man going to a wine cellar dinner and realised that he was one of Robert’s sexual partners. Now, THAT explained it.

I also recall a story told at a meeting by a student who had been told by Robert to order two cappucino machines, one for the Galleria and one for Apollo d’Oro. So he did so and told Robert when they were delivered. Robert replied that he hadn’t wanted one for A’d’Oro. The student went back and found the note left by Robert and showed him, to which Robert replied, “Sometimes it’s not enough to be right.”
Great teaching situation, I’m sure DC would say. But what coulld the student really learn from that except that Robert is always right? To quote from Daily Cardiac, “Whenever someone becomes convinced they cannot err you have the makings of a dangerous individual, dangerous to others but more so to themselves.”

8. dragon - October 23, 2008

Hi DC,

First of all you ought to update Robert (he is perhaps with modest success online with the 44) because Shakespeare (one of the 44) would have had a blog:

http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/story/rich-and-strange

Please eat more radish, eat more feminine dominance;

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=-fSnoZwxhy0

_______________________________________

DC: “What strikes me as odd is how absolutely sure some former members are regarding just what RB and FoF are. They have eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong in their assessment”
_______________________________________

IT IS just a GAME no harm intended:

DC: “I do meet newer students all the time…….to amaze me with their understandings and enthusiasm. It’s the PLAY for some to GIVE a lot and TAKE a lot and then depart. Then others come. Some don’t leave; THEY just END their ROLE, and again others come.”

How could we forget it was/is just a game we are really “asleep”!

9. Draco - October 23, 2008

Do you remember that daily card from the period in the 90s when Motown was in fashion

Student: What do you think of your former students?
Teacher: Chain chain chain, chain of fools.”

Here’s another one from December 1, 1993,
“When a person meets the School and fails to join, or joins and leaves, his golden moment has passed him by. It is the ultimate tragedy.

Love (???), Robert

October 10, 1995
Life is being sacrificed to provide denying force for ourt School. Don’t feel guilty about it–that is feminine dominance, not self-remembering.

10. dragon - October 23, 2008

6. Daily Cardiac again:

FOF is a game, just look at the video, the language doesnt’t matter:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=zCEsEKkfWBc

imagine you play the role of the sheep for Robert for the higher purpose for your soul!

11. dragon - October 23, 2008

6. Daily Cardiac again,

Your own FAMILY is still waiting fo YOU, no reproach:

12. Crouching Tiger - October 23, 2008

6 DC.

I understand what you are aiming at in your thread. However, it’s important to remember the root causes of the Blog and wonder aloud whether the kind of balanced conversation you refer to is really possible.

The Blog is composed largely of dirty, undated letters found on a battlefield. There was a war for many of the people here. For some, there still is. If you have read some of the accounts of personal experiences here, you will know that there is a kind of rawness to the emotional content that is quite definite, and often pushes gentle argument aside.

To my mind that is not necessarily a bad thing, as you seem to be implying. The character of your own posts suggests that you have not had to bear that extremity of experience, therefore it is hard for you to reply on that wavelength, or hear the sounds that are being made at that frequency. I do not blame you for that, but I do ask you to try to understand it better.

I know from my own experience in the Fof much of what is said here would be construed as the ‘expression of negative emotions’ and therefore blocked out. Nonetheless, much of it also contains the definiteness of immediate experience, there is the taste of reality still in it – in other words, it is still ‘there’, tangibly alive, before all the commentating mechanisms have gotten to work.

So is it the ‘all-knowing’ quality you are really objecting to, or rather the sheer force of people’s actual experiences in the Fellowship, and the immediacy with which they are remembered?

Putting one’s thoughts aside applies equally to you too… including the the thought that ‘Everything is just a collection of I’s’……….

13. snorer - October 23, 2008

Daily Cardiac,let’s keep it simple:
Maybe you’re not a cunt all the time,but now, at this moment you are one .
What a lot of rubish you put in your post

“the school has a definite amount of spaces or vacancies and when they are filled no one else can enter. Whenever someone leaves a space is created for another who is ready and able to step into that space.”

14. Vena - October 23, 2008

Daily Cardiac –
It sounds like you are describing your teacher. Think about it.
__________________________________________________________

“Whenever someone becomes convinced they cannot err you have the makings of a dangerous individual, dangerous to others but more so to themselves. This “all knowing” mentality is at its root the basis of self-delusion, where “my reality” morphs into Reality, but this Reality exists only in one’s own mind.”

15. loserbaby900 - October 23, 2008

DC: You live in a dream world. There is no such thing as a conscious being — all your efforts are pointless and imaginary. Conscious beings are like unicorns — the made-up dreams of sad people filling their empty lives.

You are already as awake or asleep as you will ever be. Stop living in your little fantasy world. And don’t feel sorry for me for not knowing the beauty of your sequence or other silly tools. It means as little to me as the folks praying for me because I don’t know Jesus as my personal savior.

If you could see the FOF objectively, you would laugh at your foolishness.

16. elena - October 23, 2008

DC“Whenever someone becomes convinced they cannot err you have the makings of a dangerous individual, dangerous to others but more so to themselves. This “all knowing” mentality is at its root the basis of self-delusion, where “my reality” morphs into Reality, but this Reality exists only in one’s own mind.”

It is also the old trick of the Fellowship to reduce anyone to a subjective position that undermines any objectivity. “Since we’re all subjective who says you’re right?, Since your moral values are as subjective as mine, who says I should change mine? Since no matter our convictionsm, the law still guarantees that the Fellowship can continue to function why don’t you stop bugging us?”

DC “I do meet newer students all the time, some who have 2 or 3 years in and they never cease to amaze me with their understandings and enthusiasm. It’s the play for some to give a lot and take a lot and then depart. Then others come. Some don’t leave; they just end their role, and again others come.”

What is amazing about Girard Haven who until someone proves to me that Daily Cardiac is not Girard I will continue to call him such, is that he exposes the whole doctrine, practice and experience of the Fellowship with complete naivete and it sounds perfectly legitimate. In this last paragraph, he exposes the fact that no matter how many people leave, as long as it continues to get new members it will continue to survive and put the new generation of members into the same grinder that it put the previous one. We’ve already talked so much here or at least I have about this fact that young people, in their idealism and convinced that the Fellowship is legitimate think they can make it work with enough love but in reality go through the same grinder. What is shocking is that the many exmembers who know this still won’t even sign the petition because the fact is that if it is not closed down it will continue to hurt people.

So Girard, do you just watch people come and go without it bothering you at all why they come and go as long as you continue to receive your monthly payment? Your wives as much as your followers? How do you deal with having crystallized in a completely indifferent position to other human beings as long as the made up sub-culture, infra-sex mode of life of the Fellowship continues to work? You don’t deal with it of course, you just practice it blindly and make up more and more apparently reasonable reasons to make it work in your mind and the minds of the already brainwashed members.

Of course, if you’re not Girard Haven you could be a hundred other people, you all cut yourselves with the same scissors and made the Fellowship model. We already looked at it yesterday, since you have no thoughts of your own, a hundred of you could be saying the same thing! All equally mass conditioned, mass controlled, massively delusional.

You’re perfect for a case study. I’ll keep it on that frame because the other one is too depressing.

17. snorer - October 23, 2008

Girard, your true personality is a wanker.

18. lauralupa - October 23, 2008

Crouching Tiger 11
Very well said.

A couple of questions:

Whalerider, how is the video project coming along?

Does anyone have a copy of the video with Robert singing “Over the rainbow”? I would much appreciate being able to see it. Sounds great for an art project.

19. lauralupa - October 23, 2008

Song of the day:

At the very bottom of everything

Happy landing, everyone!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qikRcAiCtKM

20. whalerider - October 23, 2008

DC:
“What strikes me as odd is how absolutely sure some former members are regarding just what RB and FoF are. They have eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong in their assessment (I know this from their own words). And yet I know none of them are close to knowing my reality so I wonder how they can possibly know Robert Burton’s reality.”

How can one possibly “know” another’s reality?

It’s called the study and practice of psychology.

RB is a sexual predator. The FOF cult is his victim pool. You are his enabler.

I also don’t think it’s a far stretch of the imagination that a jury of 12 people would come to that same conclusion as many former members here have, given the expert testimony of a psychologist or two specializing in cults and the testimony of some of RB’s victims, including myself. The FOF is not a church.

It isn’t odd to me why you’d disagree with this dissenting view, given your position in the cult. You have more to lose than any of us, am I right? I think a jury could see that, too.

Of course, you could argue we’d be putting so-called “c-influence” and your religion on trial, and you’d be right. And even though I have no doubt that the FOF would lose in a court of law, that outcome would not change your mind or alter your religious beliefs, for you are an ardent follower, a believer.

Your commonly held fixed beliefs do not give you, your cult, or your cult leader the right to harm people and defraud them of money.

Of this, I am absolutely certain.

Thanks for posting.

21. Draco - October 23, 2008

Laura, RB didn’t sing Over the Rainbow, he just recited it.

22. simeon - October 23, 2008

Out beyond ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing there is a field. I’ll meet you there.
Rumi

23. lauralupa - October 23, 2008

Draco 19
What a shame

24. whalerider - October 23, 2008

simeon:
Hmmm…Is that the same field of sand in which FOFers have buried their heads?

We’ve all heard that quote before, thank you very much.

Who are you and why are you here?

25. dragon - October 23, 2008

DC

you are in all that cruel mess, that whalerider, lauralupa, elena, snorer,Draco, Ill never tell, veramente, Josiane have written.

It is a CULT! I can’t write in normal words to you. It is impossible to reach you. Your brain is so awfully brainwashed that I react with the psychological method of the paradoxical intervention:

I have the strong wish to enter the FOF. You were so amazing, full of religious beliefs. THIS is my only sheet-anchor in the ugly and ordinary outer world.
RAPE is our way to heaven, language codes pressed in the virginlike neophyte oh what a pleasure make me fully drunken with the holy
wine.
Give me more pain (dull, sharp, stabbing).
Let my liver rejoice in ecstatic cirrhosis.

Here comes the SOUL…..

26. simeon - October 23, 2008

Leave the path of death, and follow the path of life. Leave attachment to things and places, and instead enjoy the liberty of detachment. Do not cling to foolish friends, instead rejoice in solitude. Break free from possessions and from desires – from whatever may darken the mind. Attachment to things and to places is spiritual bondage, and leads to darkness. Surrender all attachments, and enjoy the pure light of spiritual freedom. Even in this mortal life you can enjoy eternal nirvana. – Dhammapada

27. unoanimo - October 23, 2008

deleted at the author’s request

28. whalerider - October 23, 2008

Simeon:
“Surrender all attachments, and enjoy the pure light of spiritual freedom. Even in this mortal life you can enjoy eternal nirvana.”

Robert: “Now, dear, would you mind pulling down your fly?”

29. Opus 111 - October 24, 2008

DC at his best…

First in a comment to Josiane Posting, he writes:

He (REB) certainly knew you would notice his cool reception to your question and also notice his more joyous response to the student mimicking him. But these are exactly the kind of things that are minuscule in comparison to the issue of escaping. In my opinion he was lavishing you with attention that night.

Then he goes on to write in response to Uno:

They (ex-members) have eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong in their assessment (I know this from their own words). And yet I know none of them are close to knowing my reality so I wonder how they can possibly know Robert Burton’s reality.

I guess it means that the annointed CAN know Robert Burton’s reality, as DC claims to, and no, I do not mean only the obsessed, sex-crazed reality, but what Robert Burton actually means when he does or does not do something publicly. I think and yes, I know it is a waste of precious time.

30. 'I see' said the blind man - October 24, 2008

6 DC

On the other hand, if RB is a fraud and the FoF a destructive cult nothing I say could possibly be offered as a defense and I am also aware of that. You project a defensiveness that is merely me sharing my experiences as truthfully as the next guy.

You sound like a devil from the screwtape letters.

****
What strikes me as odd is how absolutely sure some former members are regarding just what RB and FoF are. They have eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong in their assessment (I know this from their own words). And yet I know none of them are close to knowing my reality so I wonder how they can possibly know Robert Burton’s reality

Why should it strike you as odd. They went through much distress to arrive at that conclusion and then they left. The reason they stayed so long is partly because of the argument you put forward – they gave RB and the FOF the benefit of the doubt.
In terms of knowing someones reality (whatever that may mean) – sure that is a tall order but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck there will come a point where you see it for what it is – a duck.
Why would anyone to go back to imagining that RB could be something other than a duck. And by the way – how do you get down off an elephant.
You don’t you get it off a duck.

****

Whenever someone becomes convinced they cannot err you have the makings of a dangerous individual, dangerous to others but more so to themselves. This “all knowing” mentality is at its root the basis of self-delusion, where “my reality” morphs into Reality, but this Reality exists only in one’s own mind

Others have already made the obvious point that the ‘Call of the Loon’ is exactly that.

****

Are these former members suggesting they have acquired objective understanding? If so how did they come by it? It’s obvious they did not possess it at the time they joined the FoF because if they are correct they could not distinguish a cult from a real school at that time. It must also be true (if they are correct) that they did not obtain O U in the FoF because destructive cults do not possess it to start with.
Yet somehow they came out the other side of the FoF experience in possession of some degree of objective understanding in order to be so sure they’ve got it all figured out right.

Objective Understanding. I would expect most people who leave the fellowship to leave that idea behind in the mire. Students join because they are searching for something and if they are lucky they get continue their search the better for the experiences that come their way. The FOF accounts for a major chunk of many of our lives and many were heavily invested. One thing that the FOF certainly did was provide an environment for people to spend time on things other than careers and developing a more conventional life stlye. I had some great times and look back with fondness when I remember friends being together for a greater purpose. That you find out that the purpose you believed you were serving was in fact a con does not cancel out the great times we had. When people leave it is quite a challenge to put things in a new context, quite a maturing process for most of us I would guess. I don’t see any outrageous claims to some greater knowledge around here. I see the active persuit of the truth, which involves taking a positioin now and then.

****

I have no problem with anyone sharing their beliefs, but I think it’s reasonable and admirable to qualify one’s viewpoints by inserting from time to time an “In my opinion” (which you did once in this post) or an “As I see it,” – but not just write it for politeness but really remind oneself that this is the way it goes with most of us.
That would keep us more on the straight and narrow, in my opinion.

I think it ridiculous to put ‘in my opinion’ all over the place. If you say it, it is because it is your opinon. This is only your conditioned FOF reaction of seperating off what is subjective from what is supposedly objective. You assume that by declaring personal statements as being personal, you withhold the authority to make objective statements when you are only talking about your belifs. Catholics, New Agers, Republicans, 49ers fans etc are all in possesion of irrifutable objective knowledge just like you.

****

You talk of dire times for the FoF but as I experience things the school has never been more healthy and vibrant. It’s true some good friends have departed lately, and at a greater frequency than before. But I see it as a healthy process. I’ve generally thought of this area in the following way: the school has a definite amount of spaces or vacancies and when they are filled no one else can enter. Whenever someone leaves a space is created for another who is ready and able to step into that space. I frankly don’t pretend to know what process someone experiences who leaves after 30 years, but it happens, and will happen again.
I do meet newer students all the time, some who have 2 or 3 years in and they never cease to amaze me with their understandings and enthusiasm. It’s the play for some to give a lot and take a lot and then depart. Then others come. Some don’t leave; they just end their role, and again others come.

That thing about limited spaces is twaddle. All part of the mythology that we bought into. It is a tool for control.
Something I definitly miss is the mostly unconditional openness of new students. There are lots of people out there searching and some will join the FOF. If you went to visit the Mormons for a while, you would see the same dynamic at work. Open, hopeful people desiring to have really found IT and doing their best to become part of IT -whatever IT is. Then there is that whole ‘destructive/constructive honeymoon’ where their world view is turned around. Great fun to be around. The virus you are infected with is spread through indoctrination and any organization needs new members to pass it on to. That is a major distinguishing feature of such religious viruses, they want to be passed on so as to perpetuate themselves. Also, if you didn’t have new students where you could sit around and tell them how wonderful the school is and how grateful you are to have found influence C, you wouldn’t have the opportunities to continue repeating the same old things. That is something I do not miss at all. Those endless self indulgent starry eyed conversations where we were re-re-reinforcing the doctrine of the FOF.

31. fofblogmoderator - October 24, 2008

8 and 15 are newly moderated

32. Daily Cardiac - October 24, 2008

Josiane – 1:

“If this “lavishing” is RB’s way of showing his love for his students, I would rather be without it. That approach has the stamp of a school of denial but I thought we had joined a school of love!!!”

One difficulty I see is that you seem to be taking things of a different order on the same terms, or level. Just because we produce a thought it does not mean it’s the most appropriate one for the moment. And when a teacher gives his input, however harsh it may seem, it does not mean he does not love us, or that he simply wants to demean us. A spiritual teacher is in charge of spiritual endeavors and feeding the spirit often runs counter to making the part of us not connected to spirit happy or pleased.

You raised a lovely daughter. Did it ever happen that when she was a child she wanted something you thought was not good for her overall well being, and you withheld it from her? In those instances did she always understand your decisions, or did she sometimes think you were unreasonable, or even cruel? Did your withholding have more to do with not loving her, or the opposite?

A spiritual teacher stands in the same relation to a student/disciple as a parent to a child, that is, they know our spiritual needs better than we do. In fact, if left to our own devices we will continually short circuit our own spiritual development. People intuitively know this and that is why many seek out a teacher. Sometimes withholding something from us is what’s most beneficial to our highest parts and does not indicate a lack of love. There are only three forces in the universe and one of those is the “denying” force. Love can be expressed through any of the three in the appropriate moment.

Suppose you were going to catch a plane for an early morning flight and it was up to your mate to awaken you on time. He comes to you and nudges you but you just roll over and remain asleep. You look so peaceful he doesn’t have the heart to shake you further and decides to let you sleep a few more minutes. But the time kind of gets away from him and 15 minutes turns into 25 or 30.

Before he comes back you wake up on your own, hurry and leave as fast as you can. But by the time you are on the road the extra few minutes of lateness has congested the highway and now you are more behind. When you get to the airport the lateness is further amplified by more people going through the screeners and ultimately you miss your flight.

Another version is your mate comes to you and sees you sleeping soundly, realizes the importance of an early start and shakes you vigorously. You jump up and your first thought is “What a rude awakening, I was having such a nice dream.” But then you remember your plans, get up and proceed to the airport and catch your flight with several minutes to spare.

The method of the first version, while the intentions were touching did not produce good results, while the second method, while there was an immediate discomfort, actually succeeded.

In spiritual matters there is almost always a hidden, higher agenda.

33. Daily Cardiac - October 24, 2008

Draco – 7:

“You have simply responded with a fallacious formal of argument, what we used to label “formatory”. Few of us are defensive on this forum–we’re attacking not defending!”

The best defense is a good offense.
Vince Lombardi

34. whalerider - October 24, 2008

Lauralupa, stay tuned.
veramente, thank you for being here.
Josiane, welcome, glad you made it out.
Unoanimo, you leave me speechless. Thank you.
Opus, you make wonderful music, play on!
Blind man, although blind, your vision is indeed 20/20
Dragon/draco, hope you both stay for awhile.
Jack, thanks for all you’ve done.
Welcome, loserbaby900
fofblogmoderator, great job!
simeon, get a life. Tell us your story, if you have one.

>>>>>>><<<<<<<

This is a true story from my life.

I once knew a counselor, a 40-something African American guy, in the psychiatric half-way house where I worked who claimed he was once incarcerated for robbing a bank. (How he got hired as a counselor had to do more with balancing staff ethnic diversity than his job history.)

Late one night when the “clients” were asleep he recounted in great detail what it was like for him to be in prison.

First, he described the robbery itself as a harrowing experience in which he was nearly shot in the head by the guard at the bank, the bullets whizzing by his ear. He ran on foot with the bag full of money and was intercepted by Federal Agents about three blocks away from the bank. He was later informed that apparently there are a carload of these guys armed to the teeth driving around the city on-call 24/7, just for the occasion. This he learned from other unfortunates in the holding tank at jail who laughed at how naïve he was at the ripe age of 22. He’d be better off robbing McDonalds, nobody gives a shit.

He pleaded no contest in court. Since it was his first offense and he was a young man, he was given 4 years of jail time with 3 years probation. So off he went to a minimum security prison in the countryside.

Surprisingly, he described it as the best experience of his life.

He finished his high school diploma, worked out every day, and learned to play jazz guitar. He was so good at playing, with oodles of time to practice, that he started a band which eventually toured other prisons.

Since he was a touring musician, he claimed he was given special “privileges”…all the dope he wanted to smoke and frequent sex when he returned with a white female guard who had an unhealthy hankering for black inmates.

So yes, he enjoyed himself during his time in jail, met a lot of interesting people, (some you wouldn’t want to bring home for dinner) and lucky for him nobody manipulated him into becoming their bitch, at least not that he disclosed to me.

But he was still in jail; it just didn’t seem like it to him at the time. He chose to take the sly man’s pill instead of bucking the system that put him there and profited from his experience…he knew that he could only be imprisoned by his attitude about his predicament. The same is true about life.

Nevertheless, he did his time, was happy to a free man again and was smart enough to avoid going back. Last I knew, he was recording tracks for a CD of his music.

35. whalerider - October 24, 2008

DC:
“A spiritual teacher stands in the same relation to a student/disciple as a parent to a child, that is, they know our spiritual needs better than we do.”

…Only a parent, truly interested in the healthy development of their children, doesn’t fuck them.

Your ignorance is revolting.

Personally, I don’t withhold the truth from my children. If they ask, I tell them to the best of my ability. I bet you don’t even have kids.

36. Daily Cardiac - October 24, 2008

Draco:

By the Way,

Thanks for the welcome.

37. whalerider - October 24, 2008

DC:
“In spiritual matters there is almost always a hidden, higher agenda.”

What utter bullshit! Where do you come up with this crap? This must be Prozac talking.

Just because an agenda is hidden, doesn’t make it higher. That fact that anything has to be hidden speaks volumes! What has anyone got to hide really? We hide from view what we only want to protect.

In true spirituality, nothing is hidden, even the esoteric is in plain view. What hidden agenda did Christ have, for goodness sake? He simply spoke the truth.

Fool! Only in cults are there hidden agendas…i.e. fraud and deceit.

38. Yesri Baba - October 24, 2008

I’ve generally thought of this area in the following way: the school has a definite amount of spaces or vacancies and when they are filled no one else can enter. Whenever someone leaves a space is created for another who is ready and able to step into that space.

39. Ellen - October 24, 2008

#12, Crouching Tiger

Nice description, thank you very much for that.

This whole blog is the unleashed voice of the once disowned queen of hearts. A card, we were told, which was the energy behind our negative emotions (so, silence please, dear). But a card, nevertheless, of great perception and power. A card that knows the difference between words and actions. A card that immediately knows the false smile on a cheating friend’s face. No words need to be spoken. It sees. She sees.

If you rob the power of this card to see by double and triple mind fuck, you disown it. It doesn’t mean she doesn’t see, it only means she’s not allowed to see; other cards don’t allow her to see. If you spend a lifetime in an organization that builds massive complicated structures on top of her simple, sweet, sometimes ferocious nature, you destroy the pulse, vibrancy and passion of your own life. Anyone who truly wants to come anywhere close to self knowledge has to own this card. It’s not an abstract concept that a teacher on a mountain top somewhere needs to show you. It’s self knowledge 101.

That’s why the graduates here are true heroes (and heroines) and apologist fools like Daily Card will forever be explaining the veracity of their own belly-button.

Amen.

40. dragon - October 24, 2008

34. + 35. whalerider

“Only a parent, truly interested in the healthy development of their children, doesn’t fuck them.”

———————————————————

So true whalerider, thanks! True “love” is an active lifelong task of parents that empowers children to grow without fear, harm etc.
It is free of any infringement of their rights. It free of any intellectual and physical abuse!
It is absolutely free of cynicism because children in their early ages of developement are not able to endure and to understand this form of violation.

41. dragon - October 24, 2008

33. Daily Cardiac (your nomen est omen for you=cardiac disease but there will be no usual remedy)

“The best defense is a good offense.”
Vince Lombardi

———————————————————You are in too deep.

In a healthy way you would try to defense your inner self!

You have lost your inner self and CRUCIFIED it for a vampire.
Your soul suffers from infinite hate implanted and camouflaged by your TEACHER.

You are the WILLING TOOL and if ever soulbirds were given to human beings ( an old Jewish legend) yours will be the sadest of all.

There is a tiny hope for you and all the traumatized people that are gone through, rape, brainwashing, war ill-treatment, all kinds of cruel flash back causing traumata….

This article ( concerning research with mice), below is the latest scientific news (additional research will be necessary, sure):

I would never recommend such a drastic method (if it will come through) to any person without a totally clarification of at least three clinical specialists (independent in any way) and without the totally consent of the person and his family.

Copyright © 2008 Elsevier Inc.. All rights reserved.
Neuron, Volume 60, Issue 2, 353-366, 23 October 2008
Article

Inducible and Selective Erasure of Memories in the Mouse Brain via Chemical-Genetic Manipulation

Xiaohua Cao1, 3, Huimin Wang2, 3, Bing Mei1, 2, 3, Shuming An1, Liang Yin1, L. Phillip Wang2 and Joe Z. Tsien2, ,
1 Shanghai Institute of Brain Functional Genomics, Key Laboratory of Brain Functional Genomics, MOE & STCSM, East China Normal University, Shanghai, 20006, China
2 Brain and Behavior Discovery Institute and Department of Neurology, School of Medicine, Medical College of Georgia, Augusta, GA 30912, USA
Corresponding author

3 These authors contributed equally to this work

SUMMARY
Rapid and selective erasures of certain types of memories in the brain would be desirable under certain clinical circumstances. By employing an inducible and reversible chemical-genetic technique, we find that transient αCaMKII overexpression at the time of recall impairs the retrieval of both newly formed one-hour object recognition memory and fear memories, as well as 1-month-old fear memories. Systematic analyses suggest that excessive αCaMKII activity-induced recall deficits are not caused by disrupting the retrieval access to the stored information but are, rather, due to the active erasure of the stored memories. Further experiments show that the recall-induced erasure of fear memories is highly restricted to the memory being retrieved while leaving other memories intact. Therefore, our study reveals a molecular genetic paradigm through which a given memory, such as new or old fear memory, can be rapidly and specifically erased in a controlled and inducible manner in the brain.

42. Crouching Tiger - October 24, 2008

33 DC.

Many people would not argue about the necessity of friction to achieve a higher purpose. In the abstract, most of what you say is therefore true.

However, this is the Blog, and here, unlike the fellowship, the concrete has precedence over the abstract.

The concrete asks: “Does the teacher represent the ‘higher purpose’ perfectly in himself?”…. “Does he embody what he teaches?”

It is relatively easy to offer people friction, but if a teacher creates friction and then allows something to pollute that purpose – for example a desire for power over others – then he is doing more harm than good. “Ye shall know them by their fruits.”

All your arguments proceed from the assumption that Robert Burton represents the ‘highest good’ for you. That part is fine.

But look, no-one else in this forum sees Robert Burton as representing their own ‘highest good’ any longer. They did once, but now they do not require his intercession on their behalf with higher forces.

This is something you need to consider before you introduce the idea of scale in order to imply that there’s some mystical hidden agenda in Robert Burton’s actions that people here don’t understand. The sense of scale is still here…. it’s only that Robert Burton’s position in it has changed!

43. Kid Shelleen - October 24, 2008

Dear Daily HeartAttack,

You wrote:

“The best defense is a good offense.
Vince Lombardi”

Maybe someone heard Vince say this at some point; it may have been his favorite saying for all I know, but he is not the originator of the quote and hence, should not have been attributed as such. Some have attributed the quote to Jack Dempsey, others to an un-named Civil War General. Much like the the forth whey, Scientology, and the see-quinns, its origin has been lost in the sands of time. And here we stand, forever cut off from the truth of our place in Universe. Was Vince on the list of 44?

44. whalerider - October 24, 2008

crouching tiger:
“Ye shall know them by their fruits.”

Well said.

Robert likes to know his male followers by their genitals.

DC:
“The best defense is a good offense.”

I believe George W. Bush also used that same thinking style to start his war of terror in Iraq….now there’s a hidden agenda for you.

45. Mick Danger - October 24, 2008

“I see the bad moon arising.
I see trouble on the way.
I see earthquakes and lightnin’.
I see bad times today.

Don’t go around tonight
Well it’s bound to take your life
There’s a bad moon on the rise.

I hear hurricanes ablowing.
I know the end is coming soon.
I fear rivers over flowing.
I hear the voice of rage and ruin.

Don’t go around tonight
Well it’s bound to take your life
There’s a bad moon on the rise.

Hope you got your things together.
Hope you are quite prepared to die.
Looks like we’re in for nasty weather.
One eye is taken for an eye.

Don’t go around tonight
Well, it’s bound to take your life
There’s a bad moon on the rise.”
– John Fogerty 1969

Payback is a mother, ain’t it Bobby?

46. Kid Shelleen - October 24, 2008

Since we’re throwing quotes around, there’s this for all my fellow theorists:

“Where the terrain and the map diverge, believe the terrain.”

47. Ellen - October 24, 2008

#46, Nice Kid. I’m stumblin’ on…

48. Daily Cardiac - October 24, 2008

‘I see’ said the blind man – 30:

DC – “What strikes me as odd is how absolutely sure some former members are regarding just what RB and FoF are. They have eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong in their assessment (I know this from their own words). And yet I know none of them are close to knowing my reality so I wonder how they can possibly know Robert Burton’s reality”

‘I see’ – “Why should it strike you as odd. They went through much distress to arrive at that conclusion and then they left. The reason they stayed so long is partly because of the argument you put forward – they gave RB and the FOF the benefit of the doubt.”

DC – You equate leaving the FoF with knowing the FoF, but the two things are not inclusive. People can leave an organization because they do not know it as easily as leaving because they do know it. Plumbing the depths of the FoF (or oneself) is not a prerequisite for leaving.

‘I see’ – “In terms of knowing someones reality (whatever that may mean) – sure that is a tall order but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck there will come a point where you see it for what it is – a duck.”

DC – ” The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell , a Hell of Heaven.” – Milton

‘I see’ – “That thing about limited spaces is twaddle. All part of the mythology that we bought into. It is a tool for control.”

DC – You’re entitled to our own opinion.

‘I see’ – “If you went to visit the Mormons for a while, you would see the same dynamic at work. Open, hopeful people desiring to have really found IT and doing their best to become part of IT -whatever IT is.”

DC – But IT does exist. Just because many sources claim to have IT is not proof IT doesn’t exist. If anything it proves IT, in all likelihood, does exist somewhere. It is extremely difficult to aspire to something that doesn’t exist. Even visionaries aspire to the possible; Icarus only envisioned the airplane.

However I would dispute the claim that most people are looking for IT. They are looking for the trappings of IT.

49. aline - October 24, 2008

#46 #
Hello kid,
So meaningfull, thanks.
Aline

50. Someone - October 24, 2008

Elena,

DC is NOT Girard Haven!!! I know that for a fact, unless someone was posting messages for him while he was away. Why? because there are at least three DC posts that were posted while Girard was flying above the ocean. This is 100% sure.

BTW there is a constant flow of new students. Not as many as those who are leaving, but they keep coming in steady numbers.

Redefining God as presence is quite attractive for many of them.
One must admit that it is an interesting and challenging idea.

51. Daily Cardiac - October 24, 2008

Crouching tiger – 42:

“But look, no-one else in this forum sees Robert Burton as representing their own ‘highest good’ any longer. They did once, but now they do not require his intercession on their behalf with higher forces.”

Truth is not a popularity contest; one can be right where 1000 are wrong.

I write from the place I know as truth, and you have the same option. Whoever is really looking for truth will recognize it no matter who is the author, or how scarcely it appears. And whoever is not looking for it will not recognize it no matter how blatant or plentiful is its appearance.

“The truth is reserved for those who use it.”

52. whalerider - October 24, 2008

DC:
Hell is reserved for those who create it for others.

53. Crouching Tiger - October 24, 2008

50 DC.

So who now is playing ‘the all-knowing judge’??? –

“Truth is not a popularity contest; one can be right where 1000 are wrong.”

It seems that all of a sudden the spirit of relativity, which you lamented the absence of on the Blog in others, has gone missing in your own post.

You simply need to recognise, publicly on this Blog, that Robert Burton is not the answer for most of the souls here, and that they can indeed ‘live from the place they know as truth’ without him. But I don’t feel you really believe that, do you? What you see is in fact Robert Burton as an absolute ‘highest good’.

So we see how your role has subtly altered as the debate develops. Now you feel yourself to be the one-in-a-thousand, with wrongness all about you… where only recently you pleaded against all-knowingness as a quality in others.

It is a pity you cannot witness your own projections. They are standing in the way of the balanced conversations you said you were seeking.

54. wingsspread - October 24, 2008

DC 50. “The truth is reserved for those who use it.”

Sounds lofty, but I think that is bs. Truth is not reserved for anyone, it just is. No one has any “rights” to truth, more than any other. And I don’t see how you have the inside scoop to know that anyone looking for “truth” will inevitably recognise it, especially without data – another noble sound bite that lacks being.

I have the impression that you often do not think through your noble sounding quotes and one-liners very thoroughly. But then, neither does your “teacher”.

I think that most of the contributors to this blog are trying to supply the factual data to people (prospective or current members) so that they can decide for themselves what “truth” re FoF is. If you have data to offer, let’s hear it. Personal stories, for example. I have read quite a number of personal stories from ex-members here. So far I read mostly dogma, quotes, and unsupported statements from you.

But you do rather nicely revive this blog when it appears to be lagging…

55. nigel harris price - October 24, 2008

Sorry to be a ‘fly in the ointment’, but I really do not give a ‘rodent’s posterior’ what Daily Cardiac writes. I remember a quote from REB, that I could refer to myself – “I know who I am, and I know what I represent”…..Nigel.

56. Another Name - October 24, 2008

DC WRITINGS

One difficulty I see is that you seem to be taking things of a different order on the same terms, or level. Just because we produce a thought it does not mean it’s the most appropriate one for the moment. And when a teacher gives his input, however harsh it may seem, it does not mean he does not love us, or that he simply wants to demean us. A spiritual teacher is in charge of spiritual endeavors and feeding the spirit often runs counter to making the part of us not connected to spirit happy or pleased.

Dear Daily Cardiac.

Robert is not able to love as he is not able to grief, mourn, to express is sadness and to have any introspection that he could have done differently…no regrets and …no CONSCIENCE. If you can not see, observe or acknowledge this you are in for surprises. Robert though, when he does not get his way acts like a 4 year old child, and regresses. He has emotional issues, never addressed and who still govern him in his daily life. Some call it consciousness. I call it sickness. That is not LOVE.

All the students that left who were his loyal or less loyal students…Robert labels them and never showed any sign of sadness. Labeling as :”like they are lower etc.. “Judging is one of the 5 weaknesses as you know for waking up. Robert is good at it. Robert does not loves, he ABUSES. He does not care about people, neither you DC.

DC WAKE UP, IT IS TIME.

DC hope you mind your own heart and emotional issues.

57. simeon - October 24, 2008

Is this blog a CULT ??
“I can’t write in normal words to you. It is impossible to reach you. Your brain is so awfully brainwashed that I react with the psychological method of the paradoxical intervention”:
Brainwashing: (thought control, mind control, coercive persuasion). A non-violent method that uses mind control techniques to convince a person to abandon some of their basic beliefs and adopt the beliefs of the indoctrinator.’!! …….and of course not formatory !!

58. unoanimo - October 24, 2008

Hello Crouching Tiger ~

Your Quote ~

“But look, no-one else in this forum sees Robert Burton as representing their own ‘highest good’ any longer. They did once, but now they do not require his intercession on their behalf with higher forces.”

Yes, not a representation, though an awesome reminder that The Path has no greater warning signs than the antique mirrors hung on nearly every tree I pass by each day.

I would say that 9.5% of all who supported and support Robert (like so many student/teacher relationships), knew and know nothing of the individual after he/she drives away from the ‘High School’ parking lot, where they dine or what they do in their private time. The blog offered me that look into the keyhole, even keyholes that the door itself had no claim to, i.e., time-machine-keyholes… I ‘knew’ Robert for a fleeting 15 minutes, though this was enough (for me) to understand and sense that something was ‘darkly’ askew between my inner love for his ‘character’ in my book and he himself and myself as a ‘character’ in his…

Maybe it’s not so much of an importance as to how often we read, but rather, how we treat the book when we have it in and out of our hands.

A Book ~

I knew that my Russian friend had gone to Russia (on Robert’s request) to have those implants done, to ‘assist’ in his drinking problem; then, when I heard that Robert kept small bottles of vodka in his private refrigerator via his bedroom, i.e., for extra leverage when ‘denying force’ was too great, the house of cards fell some more (and is still falling).

This is one of nearly a hundred stories recorded here on the blog that slowly took me apart and laid all my external affirmations in a strangely familiar, though alien box, riddled with cryptic scribble and fingerprints belonging to my human ‘gloves’, though not my hands: at least this ‘crate’, aka Pandora’s Box was now on the outside of gatehouse security.

It took me a year to squirm out of my routine (or to be pushed out of the bowels of my daily mental habitual ritual), so to see just where my inner quest was going; when I noticed that the once beautiful open ended tunnel had led me to a round room, some wierdy stuff started happening, and this feeling/circumstance-seed is not to be underestimated; it’s a feeling that’s under many current member’s tongues (I would suspect) and how it dissolves is a mystery (If it does at all).

Flirting with disaster is in style for via the FOF; the family dynamic is still in tact and deeply rooted as a ‘form’, though (IMO) not a function (Sorry, ‘I see’ said the Blind Man; that little abbreviation is a personal mantra these days and a disclaimer that dispels projections that ‘I know for all’.)

The FOF functions for sure, though produces no conscious love or ‘product’ for this planet’s inhabitants at large, i.e., a universal ‘medicine’ and not a tincture that only helps those who agree to buy stock in the pharmaceutical factory harvesting/compunding its ingredients: this is not a judgment, it refers to my 16 years and where I suddenly found myself, inside a yurt with 20+ ‘life people’ being born/ meshed together as a womb-heart-beating, by our common ‘cosmic shit’, aka, the swamp of the lotus, the ashes of the phoenix; it was the single most traumatic experience in my life, yet, it revealed to me that for 16 years I had lived in my head and not my heart, guts, pelvis or feet… Talk, talk, talk: in a cage and no permanence in the flight plan (Outside someone Else’s opinion, that is…)

To me, all anyone is really looking for in the FOF is a personal flight plan; how long the fledgling stands on the nest looking around, not flapping, mother long gone and father who knows where, as moths willy nilly fly into its mouth with no effort on its part, other than an open & close impulse, is a mystery not to be solved by shouting up ‘Get Down!’: IT knows that the Real Life is out there, from an ‘In There’ stand-point… Eye contact is what the blog is missing the most when it comes to DC; empathy is difficult to impart when we’re in a form that caters to being selective as to what we show of our true inner selves (sound familiar?)

I loved my friends more than the teacher; this kept me in the school in a big way… Later, I would discover that I did not know how to take care of myself and that the love for my friends was not actually helping me or them, it was dependence and reciprocal unmaintenance of conscious autonomy… Changing one’s own diapers is hefty business, especially when you’re too busy trying to figure out which brand would be the best fit ‘next time’.

I can only refer to myself and the ‘growing up’ that’s occurring; the 6,732,305,713 people on this planet represent the number of cells in my body (Scientists estimate there are 100 trillion, though do not truly know how many there are.) If I count the planets and stars, etc., that’s pretty much right on).

The ‘Us and Them’ is enough of a gauge, so far as conscious love quotas go and its practice: I recall that many of us ‘practiced’ external consideration of ‘life people’, that is, those life people who we felt deserved it or could “Have eyes to See.” or where there was a chance to deliver a photograph while being externally considerate… It simply took ‘Me’ to grow up and many (including myself) find it hard to understand and own up to the fact that we do indeed grow up and continue to do so past the legal drinking age.

The there’s the ego inhabitant who feels that it does not deserve to go backwards to recount its steps and that The Next Day is always its favorite…

There was a famous quote going around town ~ “Forget about healing, wake up first.” No words…

The FOF used the quote from Buddha “The problem is you think you have time.” as a ‘push’ to make more effort ‘today’; curiously enough, these days I’ve felt that the quote actually means that time does not exist for the soul (Only its “coating”/body/circumstance)… That it’s what we give and how we are towards this existence that is counted and radiates as ‘I’ from our heart’s magnetic fields, and not necessarily what we aspire towards.

For a long time I was too busy designing the perfect bed to wake up from; not noticing that I was laying large sheets of drawing paper on a drawing board glowing red hot and plugged into the exercise bike I was peddling.

Love to You all

59. Yesri Baba - October 24, 2008

46 Kid

“Where the terrain and the map diverge, believe the terrain.”

No silly, didn’t you learn anything in the fof? You go out and rent hundreds of bulldozers and reshape the landscape.

60. Yesri Baba - October 24, 2008

” You’re entitled to our own opinion.”

Messier Bulldozier

61. unoanimo - October 24, 2008

Correction ~

I loved my friends more.
The teacher was not available (to me) for only friendship.
No fault implied; simple facts of my life.
Later, I’d find that as I ‘loved’ the externals more and more, my
breathing became shallower; to love ourselves ‘right’ is a galaxy sized classroom, where the classroom itself is the teacher.

62. jack - October 24, 2008

Hi Folks.
I sometimes question how ve….ry sl…..owly I could go from Gurdjieffs understanding of family and its importance and his example of that in his own life.
To that of The fellowship and Burton.
Then back… too late unfortunately for a couple of my family which thankfully is rather large.
——————————————-
Recent heart research tells us that the heart is much more than a pump and that it sends more information to the brain than it receives.
There are some heart surgeons who speculate that this might explain how transplant patients sometimes appear to develop unfamiliar traits and that the heart in itself has memory.
This echoes the Vedic teachings which say that the Purusa or dweller in the body is infinitely small and lives in the heart.
Anyway thanks to all for recent posts and if you get the time to listen to the accompanying song I best warn you that it has a good hook.

all the best
Jack

63. fofblogmoderator - October 25, 2008

#50 is newly moderated

64. whalerider - October 25, 2008

Someone:
Welcome, despite the heat, I hope you stick around.

“Redefining God as presence is quite attractive for many of them. One must admit that it is an interesting and challenging idea.”

Redefining? The question is: does the FOF hold the patent on the idea or simply borrowing it from others?

>>>>>>><<<<<<<

I was unable to take my yoga class with the lovely Christie on Wednesday night this week because I worked late, so I took one today with another teacher, the lovely Beth, who also seems to practice what she teaches.

At the beginning of the class while we were sitting, attempting to quiet our minds, she mentioned that she heard something on public radio today, a blurb by Deepak Chopra, who was promoting his new book.

She was reminded of something she had read in another of his books about the Universe wanting to see itself through our human awareness. She linked that to the idea of what she teaches cultivating that awareness…the Universe looking through our eyes when we are present.

Sound familiar?

Then I googled Chopra to find out how to correctly spell his name. I came up with this link which had excerpts from his book, “How to Know God”, which talks about people’s mystical experiences of higher forces:

http://www.spiritsite.com/writing/deecho/part14.shtml

This passage in the next part 5 sent shivers down my spine:

“I believe that God has to be known by looking in the mirror.

If you see yourself in fear, barely holding on with survival at stake, yours is a God of fight or flight.

If you see yourself as capable of power and accomplishment, yours is a God of the reactive response.

If you see yourself as centered and calm, yours is a God of the restful awareness response.

If you see yourself as growing and evolving, yours is a God of the intuitive response.

If you see yourself as someone who makes personal dreams come true, yours is a God of the creative response.

If you see yourself as capable of working miracles, yours is a God of the visionary response.

If you see yourself as one with God, yours is a God of the sacred response.”

The idea of God as presence was only the third level of knowing God. According to Chopra, there were four other levels! (The last
level seemed akin the fourth state of consciousness that Mr. O and G wrote about.)

Now this is by no means an endorsement of Chopra, he apparently has had his own shortcomings involving his female secretary, yet despite that he has such a following that his books and CDs rake in 15 million dollars a year! I have also seen him speak in public, and he is by far more eloquent and captivating than Bobby Burton ever was in his prime.

So, is there a vested financial interest for Mr Burton and the FOF in claiming to have exclusive access to God? Don’t fool yourself, you can bet your bottom dollar there is. Nothing has changed there since Babylon.

The truth is not hidden from anyone with their eyes and ears open.

I came to the same esoteric truths from a 15 dollar yoga class and a 30 dollar a month internet connection.

Although, yes, I had to pay my dues to learn how to keep my eyes and ears open on my own. I decided I wasn’t going to let myself become someone’s bitch and put up with Robert’s bullshit any more than I had to. (I saw a funny tee shirt the other day on an attractive African American woman with the following saying blazoned across her voluptuous chest: “Yes, I am a bitch. Just not your bitch.”)

The bottom line: Your guru is in your bathroom mirror….meaning:

“To thy own self be true.”

Daily Cardiac, by all means, eat your heart out.

65. Someone - October 25, 2008

64 whalerider

Yes, I agree, yet don’t forget that Robert is now conveying a similar message of ‘All schools are the same school’ and even has stated the the ‘new’ teaching is not his own.

I was referring to what might be the attractive element for new members. From personal conversations with several new members, it is clear that “God is presence” is a key factor for them to be in the school.

This message is a challenging and deep idea for people with religious background and/or with spiritual sensitivity. It is exciting for them to realize that in so many scripts and visual elements the message “God is presence” is the utmost key and that there is a definite way of reaching God-the sequence and the four wordless breath.

I would not easily undermine this message regardless of how questionable the man who conveys it, is. Objectively it is a real spiritual and powerful message.

New members do not carry with them the leaving older/former members have, and most of them are not that impressed by the negative swirling around Robert.

I understand the urge of ex-members to refute everything Robert Burton says, yet doing just that is quite dogmatic and frothy. He does convey a real and deep message whether one likes it or not.

The fact that someone else (like your Yoga teacher) is stating similar messages in one hierarchical structure or another, does not undermines Robert’s teaching, on the contrary, it might in a way reaffirm it.

It might be quite attractive to become a member of a school that is so focused on presence. I would not undermine that point. It creates spiritual quality that is quite challenging for those who wish to remove Robert from office, so to speak.

66. Crouching Tiger - October 25, 2008

Unoanimo 58.

“Maybe it’s not so much of an importance as to how often we read, but rather, how we treat the book when we have it in and out of our hands.”

Yes, I am sure this is right. The poet Ted Hughes once said, ‘Who do you think gained more from Jesus Christ – the academic who pored over the Bible for years, or the woman who touched his robe, as he turned around in the street to look at her?” At least it has something of the same feeling.

Like yourself, my meetings with Robert Burton were fleeting. To be frank, I wasn’t looking for the teacher I found on entering the school, and I never really felt a powerful urge to know him personally. At the time I was more interested in finding an environment in which I could apply the 4th Way ideas I’d read about, and partially experienced for myself… My impressions of him were often powerful but seldom conclusive…

Someone 65.

Thanks you for your contribution. What you say sounds legitimate, and I agree it is a very potent message which can generate a lot of ‘spiritual excitement’.

The key may be: “I would not easily undermine this message regardless of how questionable the man who conveys it, is. Objectively it is a real spiritual and powerful message.”

It is interesting to see for how long the message can be kept separate from the messenger inside oneself. Especially if you are really looking for living embodiments of the truth, rather than simply excellent preachers.

My own feeling is that the ‘Work’ has to penetrate to the point where you want to become the living embodiment yourself, so far as you can manage… It is possible to take the easy way and become an excellent preacher – but to actually become the words, now that would be a very fine thing! So I guess there are two possible ‘destinies’ here.

67. Daily Cardiac - October 25, 2008

Crouching Tiger – 52:

“So who now is playing ‘the all-knowing judge’??? –
DC – “Truth is not a popularity contest; one can be right where 1000 are wrong.”

It seems that all of a sudden the spirit of relativity, which you lamented the absence of on the Blog in others, has gone missing in your own post.

You simply need to recognise, publicly on this Blog that Robert Burton is not the answer for most of the souls here, and that they can indeed ‘live from the place they know as truth’ without him. But I don’t feel you really believe that, do you? What you see is in fact Robert Burton as an absolute ‘highest good’.

So we see how your role has subtly altered as the debate develops. Now you feel yourself to be the one-in-a-thousand, with wrongness all about you… where only recently you pleaded against all-knowingness as a quality in others.

It is a pity you cannot witness your own projections. They are standing in the way of the balanced conversations you said you were seeking.”

After re-reading my post 50 I can see why you would respond as you did.

You are perfectly correct in saying – “You simply need to recognise, publicly on this Blog that Robert Burton is not the answer for most of the souls here, and that they can indeed ‘live from the place they know as truth’ without him.”

So I will concede that my response to that statement was not appropriate.Perhaps I was reading between the lines too much. I actually have no issue with that comment. What I would contest is that many ex members do take too strong an issue with me having my own very different relationship with Robert and the FoF.

Further on you said – “What you see is in fact Robert Burton as an absolute ‘highest good’.”

That’s not quite accurate. I see him as a valid guide for me and many others throughout our spiritual journey, and I know how difficult it is to find a real guide. What he represents to you or other ex members is independent of my experiences.

I find it revealing that people can’t seem to accept the fact that some individuals get what they came for regarding the FoF experience. It’s a characteristic of the blog that’s worth exploring.

I’ve made a point of speaking only from my own perspective when I write; I don’t think I’ve ever said to another “you could not have possibly experienced that because I didn’t. The comments are intentionally written to convey my life’s experience in the FoF.

I also try to make a point of not disavowing other people’s words. If I respond directly to someone’s comments I do whatever I can to not disavow them of the right to say and feel whatever they want. My answer is simply how I experience and understand something being discussed. If my words seem to contradict someone else’s it only means I had a different experience which I feel is as worthy to post as theirs.

One reason I feel some ex members are not being truthful is that if they were secure in their own beliefs what someone else says would have little or no effect on them. I get disagreed with much more than anyone else on the blog and I don’t feel threatened or irritated by anyone’s comments.

I can’t say that ex members hold a very high standard for themselves regarding how they respond to words they disagree with and that is also telling. It has nothing to do with me “blocking out the expression of negativity”, but when people feel the need to personally attack someone’s character because they disagree with them, it reveals certain truths about the attacker. Mainly it reveals that they themselves are not at ease with their own actions.

The foulness and aggressiveness is a cover up for that insecurity. When people respond to anothers words from a place of righteous indignation what they are really doing is trying to convince themselves of their correctness.

Many people on this blog are highly perturbed by the words of current members and this perturbed nature does not correspond to having a firm grasp of the truth. The truth cannot co-exist with a perturbed state; they do not co-mingle. If someone is perturbed by anothers words it is due to some falsehood circulating in them that has not been resolved.

All depictions of enlightened beings, in words and images and lore points to an unperturbed spirit, contented with itself, knowing it cannot change others or the world in many cases and being at ease with that reality. My own investigations and experiences lead me to agree with these depictions. It is no accident that Buddha hood is expressed in this way. A clear, unperturbed state is the nature of Buddha hood.

There are many justifications for why it’s good to express negativity on the blog – “It’s part of the healing process” is a common reason. Never mind it’s taken 25 or 30 years for some people to heal. I’m glad my cuts and bruises from childhood didn’t take that long to heal or I’d be still nursing them. “The FoF gets my passions going.” What did Blake say – If the passion is in you that’s good, but if you’re in the passion that’s not so good.

It’s a good gauge of someone’s inner world to just observe the degree of agitation that clings to them.

“So we see how your role has subtly altered as the debate develops. Now you feel yourself to be the one-in-a-thousand, with wrongness all about you… where only recently you pleaded against all-knowingness as a quality in others.”

Again, I’ll try to clear up any misunderstandings – The only “wrongness” I find on the blog is when people tell me that I cannot have the life I describe to them merely because they did not experience what I describe. When they call names, mock or ridicule me because my beliefs don’t jive with theirs I see that as wrongness, or falsity.

“It is a pity you cannot witness your own projections. They are standing in the way of the balanced conversations you said you were seeking.”

I’m not perfect but I’m far from being a major cog when it comes to preventing balanced conversations.

68. 'I see' said the blind man - October 25, 2008

65 Someone.
I don’ believe you are real. You are most probably ‘a someone’ who was a former member of the cult and who is representing a point of view to attract snipers. It is not even clever, let alone useful, please stop.
Thanks.

69. 'I see' said the blind man - October 25, 2008

65 somebody
I don’t consider myself to be paranoid, but when I read your last post and remember other posts by – what was his name – began with H – sorry I will write in a conversational manner. Hope someone will remember the guys name – you seem like an ex member who is trolling – if that is the correct word.
Anyway, I get the feeling you are feeding the blog, not saying anyting to expain to former members what is going on, but rather encoraging controvercy by innane and stupid statements. – not unlike DC. It would be refreshing to hear some truthful commentary from someone who can present it properly from the point of view of a current member, but it is an unrealistic expectation.

You write nonsense!
So, the fundemenal fraud perpetrated by Burton is that ‘God is presence’ – He branded this idea in oder to carve out a niche for himslef. Don’t even credit him with the branding, let alone the idea – it has been done before other charletans.

How can anyone say:
” I would not easily undermine this message regardless of how questionable the man who conveys it, is. Objectively it is a real spiritual and powerful message.”

You are a dip-shit of the first order if this is your belief and a dip-shit of the second if it isn’t.

Really – what is your problem. Maybe you are just another of the mediocre shits that find their place in an instition, if you are being truthful about your convictions. Remember that the FOF has attracted many people who are not adequate and find a safe haven in the embrace of a false doctine that excuses them from the challenge of thinking for themselves. You might even say that those that leave do so because they recongnise this.

“I understand the urge of ex-members to refute everything Robert Burton says, yet doing just that is quite dogmatic and frothy. He does convey a real and deep message whether one likes it or not. ”

It is embarassing that you inhabit the same planet and that we share 99.99 of the same DNA.

I swear that I will never be subject to this kind of manipulation again.

(I did not swear before god, or any sillyness, I just swear it before myself and for myself, because of my hard-won undersanding and the best I can wish for anyone else is that they can swear something meaningful without recourse to the mumbo – jumbo that you are happy to cloud yourself with)

70. Someone - October 25, 2008

68,69 WOW!!!

This is incredible. You want things to be written here according to your expectations…This kind of blunt reaction reveals the childish side of this Blog.

OK, so I won’t go out & play baseball with you boys.

Sorry folks, it does not work that way. If you are not able to digest this, you are welcomed to skip this part. I won’t mind.

Robert Burton does convey a deep and powerful esoteric message. The research so many members are doing, contains a great deal of genuine esoteric knowledge. These researching members are getting educated and are increasing their understanding of the true meaning of the esoteric heritage. I know some of them and they are sincere about what they are doing.

If one ignores that as a fact, one remains on a childish repetitive thread this Blog has. Luckily it’s not the only thread, but it surely is one of the main lines of thought here.

If all what your mind can produce in order to face all that is “mediocre shits”[ 69. ‘I see’ said the blind man] – then it is quite sad.

Most of the new members join and stay because of this spiritual message, and many older members stay because it is really valuable for their first line.

Many who have left or are on the verge of leaving , do so not as a a repulsive act against Robert, but because they ceased to understand what he is talking about. Yet, there are many others who went deeper into this new teaching and they highly value it.

Many of these students do occasionally enter this Blog and if anyone here wishes to address them, you cannot be in a state of mind emitting expressions like “mediocre shits” to reach their hearts and minds.

This is part of FOF reality today, and I was pointing that out for you.

71. dragon - October 25, 2008

“Knowledge is power”

The new way of teaching by Robert E. Burton and his enablers (center directors, tutors, bookmark distributors….. all around the world)

Sir Francis Bacons and his philosophical system:

His famous aphorism, “knowledge is power”
Bacon did not propose an actual philosophy, but rather a method of developing philosophy. He wrote that, although philosophy at the time used the deductive syllogism to interpret nature, the philosopher should instead proceed through inductive reasoning from fact to axiom to law. Before beginning this induction, the inquirer is to free his or her mind from certain false notions or tendencies which distort the truth. These are called “Idols”[15] (idola), and are of four kinds: “Idols of the Tribe” (idola tribus), which are common to the race; “Idols of the Den” (idola specus), which are peculiar to the individual; “Idols of the Marketplace” (idola fori), coming from the misuse of language; and “Idols of the Theatre” (idola theatri), which result from an abuse of authority. The end of induction is the discovery of forms, the ways in which natural phenomena occur, the causes from which they proceed.
—————————————————————————————————————-

1.) In times of financial difficulties (in all countries world wide) there is a need for both the FOF and the new adepts (pupils or victims) to search stability.

2.) The FOF offers in the coat of a warmhearted spiritual family stability and an spiritual aim in life for its members.

3.) The FOF kows “Knowledge is power” and the FOF recognized straight away:

We want to survive this ugly market crash and these unpleasant people (on the blog and elsewhere outside the “organisation”, like the Attorney Ford Green of San Anselmo, California /Hub Law Offices/711 Sir Francis Drake, San Anselmo, CA 94960-1949/ Phone: (415) 258-0360 /Fax: (415) 456-5318 etc.)

The FOF recognized: If we want to survive (financially) we will have to undergo an adaption. MONEY, DONATIONS,TAX-EXEMPT STATUS all the helpful sacraments ought to be preserved by ourselves.

HERE comes a JOKE (for all students of R.E.B. be aware of the mental mud of the BLOG PEOPLE/”Spiel nicht mit den Schmuddelkindern, sing nicht ihre Lieder, geh doch in die Oberstadt, machs wie deine Brüder”):

[Perhaps ROBERT said to GIRARD in his honey-tuned Sunday voice:
Well Girard you never were streetwise, were you?

In the last forty years we were making furniture from bonsai treas.

Nowadays we will mix up the “idols of Sir Francis Bacon/ they replace the I’s” with suitable fragments of all religions and cults, I will crucifiy my vanity (I was not the entire holy source-channel for wisdom) and whoooooops there is the new FOF:

Spiritual convenient FOOD FOR the MAINSTREAM!

And never forget Girard: Knowledge is power and POWER IS MONEY, IS LUXURY!]

72. dragon - October 25, 2008

F.J. Degenhardt: “Spiel nicht mit den Schuddelkindern”

I could not find the english version, it is very good!

73. lauralupa - October 25, 2008

DC 6

“I do meet newer students all the time, some who have 2 or 3 years in and they never cease to amaze me with their understandings and enthusiasm. It’s the play for some to give a lot and take a lot and then depart. Then others come. Some don’t leave; they just end their role, and again others come.”

I remember well my own enthusiasm as a newer student, and the shiny hopeful faces of new students when I first met them at Renaissance. I also remember well the changes I witnessed in the faces of my male friends as they went through the motions while trapped in Robert’s crusher distemmer machine. And actually, even though they never openly talked about what was happening to them, I will never forget the heartbreaking confusion and sadness that transpired from some of those once beaming faces.

DC, you must have seen a lot of people coming and going in the FoF, it would surprise me to find out that you never noticed some of those boys’ not-so-sublte changes in energy and attitude.

I would really appreciate it if you could spare me from another one of your rebuttals putting forth your belief that it was all for their own good, teacher knows best etcetera. As with Josiane, either you weren’t there, or you were there and your eyes and mind were too busy “remembering yourself” and “being present to the beautiful impressions” to notice.

“God is presence”. Easy to say, but present to what?
That is the question.

If that “God is presence” concept is not addressed more deeply, all you have is just another mass-produced fortune cookie for the sugar craving spiritual wimp.

BTW, I have recently for the first time watched a Deepak Chopra interview, and found him to be very articulate and intellectually sophisticated, clearly eons ahead of Burton in the spiritual master game.

For example, this is his website’s version of the Daily Card:

Spiritual law of the day:

The Law of Dharma or Purpose in Life
The Law of Dharma… Everyone has a purpose in life . . . a unique gift or special talent to give to others. And when we blend this unique talent with service to others, we experience the ecstasy and exultation of our own spirit, which is the ultimate goal of all goals.
I will put the Law of Dharma into effect by making a commitment to take the following steps:
1. Today I will lovingly nurture the god or goddess in embryo that lies deep within my soul. I will pay attention to the spirit within me that animates both my body and my mind. I will awaken myself to this deep stillness within my heart. I will carry the consciousness of timeless, eternal Being in the midst of time-bound experience.
2. I will make a list of my unique talents. Then I will list all the things that I love to do while expressing my unique talents. When I express my unique talents and use them in the service of humanity, I lose track of time and create abundance in my life as well as in the lives of others.
3.I will ask myself daily, “How can I serve?” and “How can I help?” The answers to these questions will allow me to help and serve my fellow human beings with love.

Daily inspiration:

“Where love rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other. ” Carl Jung

compare with the Call of the Loon… oh well, to each his own!

74. dragon - October 25, 2008

62. Jack- October 24, 2008

Be happy to have the natural gift of body awareness.

We are born to experience the full spectrum of human emotions.

The problem is that most people in our modern society are not supported to feel and release their emotions, because only certain emotions are considered socially acceptable. As a result, many people suppress and repress their emotions, which is what also causes disease.

The link is about the differnt types of “heart diseases”:

http://www.stress.org/topic-proof.htm

The old Vedic teachings are a wise council.

Whenever you feel uneasy in your life/profession/human relations/religion/cult…..
just observe your heart frequence and your blood pressure during a whole day and a whole night (long-term ECG). If there is no stress relaxation, your body tells you the truth of life.

Concerning the heart disease it could also be a Chlamydia infection (antibiotics will help) but you can check all possibilities step by step and if it is a “FOF-caused” heart stumble you will have the choice:

1. I will go on with it.(it is my exercise!)

2. I will go on with it and I treat my heart with medication.

3. I will leave the FOF.

4. I will leave the FOF and I will supress or reappraise the painful memories as far as I will be able to do so.

5. I will act as described in 4. and I will additionally maintain my relationships with my former friends (FOF members and Ex-members and ordinary people as well)

6. I will act as desribed in 5. and I will warn and inform other potential students

I guess what your choice looks like.

It is the only choice that is the life-affirmative answer.

Thanks for your work and your posts!
Let us go on with it!

75. dragon - October 25, 2008

70. Someone- October 25, 2008

“Many of these students do occasionally enter this Blog and if anyone here wishes to address them, you cannot be in a state of mind emitting expressions like “mediocre shits” to reach their hearts and minds.”

___________________________________________________________________

Please excuse our “underdog-behaviour”, our minds do not flow in the “stink of enlightenment” (a buddhistic quote to differentiate in the perceptible state of true or false awareness) and perhaps many of us are not really refined and broad educated human beings.

By the way I welcome the decision of the FOF head quarters to educate the new students here on the blog.

We will do our very best, up to “dinner for one”.

The apprenticeship fee ought to be given in form of donations for
Third World countries.

Most of the students of the FOF are members of the highly educated middle class and their donations are welcome in Africa, India, South America, Russia, China…,
where children die of hunger every minute without the slightest possibility to internalize the FOF lectures in their whole life, because they cannot evolve any form of education or simple they are busy with the life and death issue: What can I eat or drink?

Are those children the food for the moon of the FOF? Is it karma? Do they deserve their miserable life (perhaps like jews, Roma, Sinti, communists, gay man…during the Nazi terror). Are they like ants, worms, slipper animalcule… Be sure an ant is touched by more public spirit than a well indoctrinated FOF member.

What is the source of the cynical grin of the FOF indoctrination?

Are Questions allowed IN THE NEW FOF? Is it no longer “gossip” to ask why?

Why do the head quarters not allow an investigation concerning the dark chapter of the FOF described in the “petition online”.

Why evade the headquarters of the FOF responsibility and pay instead of (for the silence)? Don’t tell me it is the wish and the very best for the victims!

The way to the hearts and the souls of the FOF students goes through the truth of life, some of them experience it, some of them undergo it and some of them learn of it.

Listen to your hearts, ask questions ask, ask, ask and if you are not satisfied ask again, if it is painful for you to give your body (or your money) to someone who will take it (telling you it is for higher purposes), please, please run, run , run…..

WE HERE on THIS UNDERDOG BLOG are WAITING for YOU!
NO REPROACH!

WE are asking for an investigation. Nothing less!

We are able to celebrate any kind of humour and if it is necessarry we are allowed (by ourselves) to laugh in a loud and anarchic way!

76. dragon - October 25, 2008

Cara Unoanimo,

I am missing Arthur and I guess he is not able to join the blog because there are computer problems.

Could you please contact him.

The blog is his joy and we should enable him to share our quotes.

(Perhaps the paypal account with your/our help?)

77. whalerider - October 25, 2008

someone:
“Robert Burton does convey a deep and powerful esoteric message.”

That does not negate the fact that he is a sexual predator of young males with an insatiable appetite. The FOF is his rape factory and you are his enabler. Research…done with Photoshop? Give me a break.

DC:
“righteous indignation?” How about moral outrage!

“The truth cannot co-exist with a perturbed state; they do not co-mingle.”

Tell that to a black person in South Africa.

I would argue that the truth does not co-exist or co-mingle with someone in such a depraved state as Robert Burton.

Your ignorance is revolting.

78. William - October 25, 2008

Someone (#65)

You’ve put your finger on the very problem. “God” is not a mere concept you can rearrange and make new. Robert recognizes how criminally arrogant that it is – that is why he said his “nouveau god” is the teaching of all ages. He is using the past to justify his indefensible present.

You really do have to cut and tuck the teaching of all ages to come up with these kinds of doozies. Believe me: I used to be one of the cut-and-pasters. But since most of these new students won’t venture beyond the Cliff Notes – they won’t have time, what with all the meetings and activities and dinners and drinking and sex and hydrogens – you’re probably pretty safe with these bowdlerized redefinitions. I’m sure the new students are getting the usual “high” in the present – and since that is now “God,” they’ll go for it.

What Robert has effectively done is remove all reference for the self outside the self. (And sorry, capitalizing “self” doesn’t really make it a bigger deal.) This is a very bold step, and precisely where he is leading his students off a cliff.

In its most innocent manifestations, this is merely solipsism, but its downstream implications are much bigger.

While it is true that we cannot understand God at our level – to remove the very concept that there is a being even larger than me and my moment is precisely what separates you from the great teachings and the wisdom of all ages – in fact, it leads you back to Robert, when you have exhausted the “self.” If you read these teachings, you will be struck by the obvious contradictions, and you will have to go back to Robert for a “key.”

Let me pick an example, more or less at random. You would agree that Jesus Christ is still a great teacher, even grand enough for the FOF, yes? Let’s take this passage from Matthew 6, the gospel that Robert says is from “higher mind” (as if they all weren’t). I’m reminded that Robert says that “prayer” is also presence:

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: [what follows is what is known as the “Lord’s Prayer” – a series of words, not thoughts or feelings, let alone a state of “presence”]

Now, let’s “key” this, shall we? If “presence” is God, and “prayer” is presence, this passage becomes nonsense. Why on earth would you have to speak to presence, with words? If prayer is presence – what is the point of words? Wouldn’t words be a distraction from being present? Why “pray” at all? Doesn’t it imply that there is something outside the self?

I’m sure you can wriggle out of this, Someone. After all, maybe Jesus didn’t exist, or the translation was faulty, or some rotten scribe stuck that in to consolidate his power. But you are going to have to throw out a lot of other books besides the New Testament – in fact, you’ll have to throw out the Koran, the Old Testament, and pretty much the teachings of all ages.

By making “God” presence you unhook these new students from conscience – conscience, at least in Ouspensky’s now-discarded definition, involves the ability to compare the self at difference points in time, to bring many attitudes and behaviors and experiences into the present moment and see one’s contradictions. It also removes any kind of accountability. Accountability involves some review of the past – even if it’s something you said or did 30 seconds ago, it involves moving into the past. And while I was in the FOF, Robert’s definition of the “present” was being parsed so finely it eliminated common sense, as well as conscience.

Yes, I’m sure is enormously freeing and exciting to jettison all this “excess baggage.” Just like it was enormously freeing for all those parents who abandoned their children so they could be more fully in the work. But there are long-term consequences of these choices. They happen over time.

To buffer seeing those consequences, the FOF has to create an enormous emphasis on defenses of “personal responsibility” and “personal choice” – to avoid seeing that damaging decisions (to have sex with Robert, to be cruel to those around one) are the direct consequence of this philosophy.

Don’t look at Robert’s philosophy – look at the effects on those who sit at the front of the meeting. It will be years before these new students see beyond the Ferragamo handbags and gentle words. The people up front are some of the most cruel painfully selfish people I have ever met – no, no, let me correct that: not the most deeply selfish, perhaps, but the most selfish in an entrenched way, in a way that is backed up by having selfishness as a philosophical system. The lives around them are a wreckage of broken promises and commitments. These lives (parents, children, spouses) have been distorted to accommodate the perpetrator’s selfishness. (For example, it was their “choice” in the present to have sex – but the snotty teenager who is in the resulting “present” fifteen years later is not their “choice.” Maybe the hot Russian student at Apollo d’Oro is now their “choice” in the “present.”)

If you act on these “choices” in the “present” – I guarantee you that you will need to be present more and more often, to buffer the pain you have caused others, and the essence-damaging choices you have brought on yourself.

In short, I think Robert’s new teaching is what the ancients called “blasphemy” – a result of Robert’s “hubris,” which could be called a kind of over-reaching. But I guess that’s just “feminine dominance,” eh? It must make you feel cool to be advancing this “challenging” and “attractive” idea. (Sorry, Someone, if I sound hard: I used to be just like you.)

As someone once said, beyond good and evil is only evil.

79. wingsspread - October 25, 2008

DC:
“When people respond to anothers words from a place of righteous indignation what they are really doing is trying to convince themselves of their correctness.

Many people on this blog are highly perturbed by the words of current members and this perturbed nature does not correspond to having a firm grasp of the truth. The truth cannot co-exist with a perturbed state; they do not co-mingle. If someone is perturbed by anothers words it is due to some falsehood circulating in them that has not been resolved. ”

Again, more bs – i.e. talking about that which you do not know as if you do. If a friend is cheated, conned, raped, had their innocence and hopes soiled and perverted, and their health broken – and no one will help or even recognize the anguish of the friend, then a sincere, loving person gets “perturbed”. That perturbation does not have much to do with “falsehood circulating in them” – other than recognition of the falsehood circulating in their community. And a sincere, loving, honest person gets perturbed at the impression of smug self satisfaction coming from those who refuse to look at the pain of the victims.

80. dragon - October 25, 2008

77. whalerider

thank you for your post:

“This passage in the next part 5 sent shivers down my spine:

“I believe that God has to be known by looking in the mirror.

If you see yourself in fear, barely holding on with survival at stake, yours is a God of fight or flight.

If you see yourself as capable of power and accomplishment, yours is a God of the reactive response.

If you see yourself as centered and calm, yours is a God of the restful awareness response.

If you see yourself as growing and evolving, yours is a God of the intuitive response.

If you see yourself as someone who makes personal dreams come true, yours is a God of the creative response.

If you see yourself as capable of working miracles, yours is a God of the visionary response.

If you see yourself as one with God, yours is a God of the sacred response.”

——————————————————-

And every time we are looking at the mirror we are able to find the appropriate God for us.

It is not all the time the same God and it is not all the time the pleasant God. Sometimes it is time to fight even if it is not the comfortably way.

It is the God of the direct question and the straight answer!

Thank you for your presence!
Thank you all!

Every human being is connected with the other human beings/beings and there is always the possibility to communicate with each other.

81. ton - October 25, 2008

Consider if you will, the power and use of words as a ‘means’ to accomplish ‘ends’ — here’s an attempt to define a couple of terms, their meanings and implicatiions:

Bullshit and Horseshit —

In his book “ON BULLSHIT” (2005) Princeton professor Harry Frankfurt writes:

“It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.”

Art Kleps quotes a conversation with Timothy Leary in his book “Millbrook – The true story of the early years of the psychedelic revolution” —

“Our victory is over horseshit rather than bullshit. Bullshit is a rare and valuable commodity. The great masters have all been superb bullshitters. Horseshit, on the other hand, in the common parlance, refers to downright crap. The free, playful entertaining flight of ideas is bullshit; and more often than not will be found afterwards to accord perfectly with universal truth. Horseshit is contrived; derivative, superstitious, ignorant. We might take Gurdjieff as an example of a master bullshitter and Meher Baba as an example of a master horseshitter.” (My commentary here: ‘call no man master’ and ‘to each their own’).

‘If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.’

From wikipedia:
“The word ‘horseshit’ is often used in vulgar slang as a synonym for ‘bullshit’ to refer to nonsense. The usage of ‘horseshit’ differs slightly from ‘bullshit’. ‘Horseshit’ is more often used as a reactive exclamation or profoundly distrustful assessment. ‘Horseshit’ carries a connotation of the speaker’s indignation and tends to lack the (sometimes) benign implications of ‘bullshit’; stating that something is a ‘load of horseshit’ usually implies that the speaker feels wronged, cheated or upset by the current situation, whereas calling something ‘bullshit’ can imply anything from indignation to a joking and good-natured intent. (Words such as ‘baloney’ or ‘poppycock’ are less vulgar alternatives. There are also many Irish slang equivalents, including blarney, malarkey, balderdash and tommyrot.) ‘Bullshit’ implies dubious credibility… whereas ‘horseshit’ suggests uncompromised ignorance or deception….”

82. Crouching Tiger - October 25, 2008

DC:

“Many people on this blog are highly perturbed by the words of current members and this perturbed nature does not correspond to having a firm grasp of the truth. The truth cannot co-exist with a perturbed state; they do not co-mingle. If someone is perturbed by anothers words it is due to some falsehood circulating in them that has not been resolved.

All depictions of enlightened beings, in words and images and lore points to an unperturbed spirit, contented with itself, knowing it cannot change others or the world in many cases and being at ease with that reality. My own investigations and experiences lead me to agree with these depictions. It is no accident that Buddha hood is expressed in this way. A clear, unperturbed state is the nature of Buddha hood.”

First things first. Let’s say that you and I are both very, very lucky not to have experienced the ‘perturbation’ caused by sexual experiences with Robert Burton, described by many voices on this Blog. Maybe it would shake your serenity too, if you had had to live through the spiritual crises that flared out of those encounters… So try on a little humility, and consider your own good fortune in that regard.

Your statements here feel like the result of the intellectual centre thinking for itself, without referring to anything outside it. Do you really wish to dismiss the real accounts of experiences here as the products of a perturbed state, and therefore of no value? And what was the cause of those perturbed states? You must at least admit that the results of Robert Burton’s sexual invitations are at the very best, totally random! And that is the very best perspective…

This imagination you have of the ‘quiet mind’ of an enlightened being also scarcely bears any scrutiny. Mohammed was frequently observed by his companions as ‘boiling with rage’ that made his face go a deep shade of red. Jesus drove the money-lenders from the temple in a fury. Gurdjieff used ‘angel’ and ‘devil’ (dabbel) alike in his teaching, and the loving god of the NT has for his companion the ferocious god of the old testament who never hesitated to smite his enemies utterly…

Even your ultimate example, Buddha is flawed. Buddha said: “We forgive an injustice primarily to overcome the resentment that it causes in ourselves. But that does not mean we will tolerate that injustice a second time.”

The law was, and is, ‘Anger as a purely personal reaction is not permitted, but anger against a breach of divine law is obligatory’.

The divine law in question here is the sacred relationship between spiritual teacher and student, which has itself been ‘perturbed’ by the sexual needs of the teacher. We must use this word because it has indeed cause chaos, confusion and spiritual crises in the ex-students who have been speaking here. But one has to look, not at effects but at root causes. I invite you to do that, rather than deflecting attention on to the identifications you perceive in these speakers.

83. nigel harris price - October 25, 2008

70 somebody

I did not join the FOF to keep on studying my life away, although my first year and a half gave me a great deal of time to ‘get to grips’ with the workbooks, since I was at art-college, training to be a designer-craftsman in precious metals, and could not live at a teaching-house or be part of the FOF melee during that time. Work led to other forms of work (and I desperately wanted to continue my profession whilst also knowing that that I had joined the FOF to experience ‘facts’ [PDO ‘In Search of the Miraculous’], which came about after leaving/being financially released from the FOF and continue now from time to time). I suppose, in my attitude, I gravitate towards lauralupa’s way of thinking and find understanding in whalerider’s and yesri baba’s contributions. I am blogging with the eventual aim of seeing REB in court and continuing my life with my real friends, who have nothing to do with ‘esoteric groups’…..Nigel P.S. I’m the one with bipolar affective disorder.

84. dragon - October 25, 2008

81. ton – October 25, 2008

First of all did you adress your “shit” classification to all on the blog?

Nice idea to educate us about the proper use of bullshit and horseshit but you ought to mention also cowshit and nightingaleshit.

Cowshit is simply the best for the growing of bamboo and nightingaleshit is used in japanese cosmetics.

85. dragon - October 25, 2008

82. Crouching Tiger – October 25, 2008

“The law was, and is, ‘Anger as a purely personal reaction is not permitted, but anger against a breach of divine law is obligatory.”

———————————————————

What is the origin/author/prophet etc.of this law?

Is it your law?

PS
“You and I are both very, very lucky not to have experienced the ‘perturbation’ caused by sexual experiences with Robert Burton, described by many voices on this Blog”

I am delighted with this news.

86. unoanimo - October 25, 2008

Hello Dragon ~

If the moderator could put back the PayPal DONATE-button, we could donate until the balance was met: he could let us know and we’ll get a computer package. Building a computer on Dell’s website is the ‘nay’ of the fakir, who, after sitting in the lotus position for ‘long enough’ ends up with the perfect computer that comes (noted in small 6pt typography) with the ‘No modem Option’… (Sound Familiar?)

So, I’d rather drive down to Office Depot and just get the whole kabootle and ship it off to him; I called and they have one for $580.00 (and with a rebate coupon), it balances out to $499 (+ The Terminator Tax 7.5%) and the UPS shipping cost: it is this one ~

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/977620/HP-Pavilion-Slimline-s3620f-Desktop-Computer/

So, the ball is in the moderator’s court if he wishes to play (?); otherwise I will need some help launching the fofblog-website.

L.t.y.a.

87. Ellen - October 25, 2008

#67, Daily Cardiac,

Howdy, nice to have you back.

In your lengthy response to Crouching Tiger at one point you said, “I know how difficult it is to find a real guide.” Do you? Do you really? Or are you just repeating what has been drummed into your psyche for years? Have you actually tried recently? No? No need? Not interested? OK, I can accept that, but then you need not state as fact an old concept that you, yourself have not recently verified.

The fact is, these days, particularly with the internet, it is quite possible to find realized masters teaching pure spiritual messages in various locations around the world. They may or may not have formed a spiritual community of disciples or students but strangely enough, across the board, their message differs from Robert’s in one particularly important way, each in their own way teach transformation through integration, rather than mere separation – not only with the full deck of playing cards but also humanity. The queen of hearts is not “bad”. The king of clubs is not “bad”. The lower self is not “bad”. And life is not “bad”.

So, here’s a story for you: I was on a retreat with one of those “exceptionally hard to find” realized masters for nine days last January. His tool of integration and transformation is a refined kind of voice dialog work. He specializes particularly in the disowned voices of spiritual seekers. Oooh, la, la, now it gets really interesting. Here’s a list of some of the voices he invited us to experience: The Controller, the Protector, the Damaged Self, the Bitch, the Braggart, the Narcissist, the Sexual Pervert, etc… he’s got a full tool bag. It was very interesting to experience the re-flow of energy when a disowned voice was adressed and simply given permission to speak. We all enjoyed the Bitch, hurling “fuck off” abuse at our impassive Zen master; he did not mind (his own vocabularly is also rather colorful) but then he finally stopped us and asked us to feel the energy flowing through our bodies at that moment. And he said, “You need this energy when you are sitting on your cushions.”

He then asked to speak to the Sexual Pervert. I remember that my hand shot up, and when I spoke, I almost jumped out of my chair. Thanks to Robert, that voice in me was not disowned. And the energy that a voice like that released was quite also quite powerful. Again he said, “You need this energy when you are sitting on your cushions.” But there were others in the room who had been sexually abused when they were younger. Working with them later electrified the room, moving from the voice of the Damaged Self into the voice of the Undamaged Self.

You speak a lot here about the aggressive posters and their language, but you remain clueless as to why they speak the way they do. Your heart is closed, so it is impossible for you to understand. You consistently find it impossible to put yourself in their shoes. I must presume you are not an attractive, naive young man. I must presume you are not an attractive, naive, financially well off woman. I must presume that you are no longer young. I do presume that your own ego gains in subtle, possibly even perverse personal ways from your association with the man you call your Teacher. Otherwise, you would be able to hear what these people are saying. It isn’t rocket science.

You mention that there are many newer students now. How lovely. Young, idealistic and naieve, as many of us were. Is that proof of the strength and power of a real School? Rather to me, proof of the continuing attraction to a young naieve spiritual seeker to finding a like minded group of people who are practicing self remembering. Wonderful. And it is, until you realize that all the divisions, borders, and separations are simply incorrect, only serving to reinforce the shadowed sleep of it’s misguided leader, guiding those lovely naieve people into a spiritual cul-de-sac.

Will you ever question anything?

88. lauralupa - October 25, 2008

Crouching Tiger
thanks for another great post. I would like to add that Buddhism has its own share of wrathful deities along with the ones embodying compassionate and healing qualities.

“The most important category of wrathful deities is the group of eight dharampalas. The dharampalas, or defenders of Buddhism, are divinities with the rank of Bodhisattva who wage war without any mercy against the demons and enemies of Buddhism.

Images of the wrathful deities are kept in the homes and temples of Tibetan Buddhists to protect them against evil influences and remind them to destroy passion and evil in themselves. In general Buddhist practice, sculptures and thangkas are intended as temporary dwellings for the spiritual beings into which Buddhism projects its analysis of the nature of the world. They are thus not just aesthetic objects but actual dwellings for the energies projected into them with the aid of mantras. The power of those energies can then be directed towards the Buddhist goal. The wrathful deities, though benevolent, are represented in visual arts as hideous and ferocious in order to instill terror in evil spirits which threaten the dharma.

The wrathful deities can also be a focus of Buddhist devotion and worship. “The dharmapalas are worshiped in the mgon khang, a subterranean room, the entrance to which is often guarded by stuffed wild yaks or leopards. Priests wear special vestments and use ritual instruments often made of human bone or skin. Worship includes the performance of masked dances.”

“External offerings” made to the wrathful deities differ from those provided to tranquil deities and are traditionally six in number: a cemetary flower, incense of singed flesh, lamp burning human fat (or a substitute), scent of bile, blood (usually symbolized by red water) and human flesh (usually symbolized by parched barley flour and butter realistically colored and modeled). Similarly, the “internal offering” or Offering of the Five Senses given to wrathful deities is a skull cup containing a heart, tongue, nose, pair of eyes, and pair of ears. In Tibetan texts, these are human organs, but in actual ceremonies barley-flour-and-butter replicas are used instead.

The wrathful protective deities are depicted in sculptures, paintings and masks as figures with stout bodies, short but thick limbs, several heads and a great number of hands and feet. They have scowling faces, a third eye and disheveled hair, and they wear crowns of skulls or severed heads. They are often depicted treading on animals and in the company of a female consort.

The color of their faces and bodies is frequently compared with the characteristic hue of clouds, precious stones, or other natural objects. Thus we often read in the Sadhanas (canonical texts) that one or the other wrathful deity is black “like the cloud which appears at the end of a kalpa (aeon)”, blue “like an emerald” or white “like a mountain of crystal”. The yellow color is compared to that of pure gold, and the red color of some of them is supposed to be “like the hue produced when the sun rises and its rays strike a huge mountain of coral.”

Their faces possess a typical wrathful expression: the mouth is contorted to an angry smile, from its corners protrude long fangs – often said to be of copper or iron – or the upper teeth gnaw the lower lip. A “mist of illnesses” comes forth from the mouth and a terrific storm is supposed to be blowing from the nostrils of the flat nose. The protruding, bloodshot eyes have an angry and staring expression and usually a third eye is visible in the middle of the forehead.”

Sorry for the lenghty dissertation from ReligionFacts, I just love the visual richness of the TIbetan mind!

IMO this is one of the aspects where Tibetan Buddhist worship and sciamanism collide.
There is a common understanding that the dark side must be walked through and faced squarely for rebirth to possibly occur, not daintily avoided and cowardly denied as the FoF brand of spiritual wimpiness suggests.
You can’t vanquish what you are not familiar with. And FoF members are not encouraged to familiarize themselves with their own unembellished bathroon mirror image. They are instead instructed to superimpose upon their features a contrived all-knowing half-smile born not from understanding and compassion but from self-conceit, imitation cohertion and self-limitation.

I totally agree with those who have addressed on this precious blog the heavy psychological effects of prolonged membership in the Fellowship of Friends Cult: selfish self absorption combined with an unjustified sense of superiority, endless gullibility and downright delusion. We all came out crippled, one way or another, and in the heart area for sure: damaged in the ability to feel, to love, to be spontaneous, to enjoy life and people on their own terms, to let go of superficial acts and endless mind gamesand repetitions.

Jeez… here goes the puking again

89. fofblogmoderator - October 25, 2008

#72 is newly moderated

Regarding the paypal button, I can probably set it up, but I have to figure out how and also will have to become the bookkeeper which I don’t mind doing. I’m just wondering how to transfer money out and to whom am I sending the donations, etc…

I’m wondering if someone should try to contact Arthur to make sure that the situation as imagined by Dragon in post #76 is an actual fact.

90. lauralupa - October 25, 2008
91. elena - October 25, 2008

Someone: “Robert Burton does convey a deep and powerful esoteric message. The research so many members are doing, contains a great deal of genuine esoteric knowledge. These researching members are getting educated and are increasing their understanding of the true meaning of the esoteric heritage. I know some of them and they are sincere about what they are doing.”

Someone, maybe you are in more deeply than you think like a thousand others and divided. Your words reveal the fact that you think that the things Robert says or the research some members do is enough to make the Fellowship a School and blatantly forget the facts.

The facts that:
1. while a few enablers get to research or say who can research
2. most members only participate as payees.
3. Robert is the only one who can speak.
4.People who cannot express themselves are like birds without wings.
5. members are systematically humiliated in the FOF but they do not notice it because they have hypnotized themselves into idolatry. They have hypnotized themselves and they’ve been hypnotized by the form, the activities, the conditions. After years of not being, they no longer are. That is, after years of not acting from their own self they continue to act mechanically as the form imposes.

There are so many more like the rapes, the hierarchy, the second and third hand treatments but they are all on the blog, where did you leave them?

The fact that you yourself have forgotten these things that we’ve looked at so deeply on the blog shows how easy it is to keep believing that the Fellowship is a legitimate School of consciousness. You are yourself stating these things, why are you still there? I am not attacking you, it is your life but can you see the double bind that you are also in?
“Robert Burton does convey a deep and powerful esoteric message.”
Since when are you believing this? Have you confronted it with your own self and the facts?
What makes you think that self remembering on its own is deep and powerful, especially when you look at each member of the Fellowship and all you can see is people obeying blindly Robert’s impositions to have five auctions a year and twenty events a week so that he can collect more money while a hundred students keep busy researching no matter what knowledge that he’ll quickly turn into hieroglyphs while at the same time takes every personal understanding away from no matter who is researching because he is the ONLY one who can UNDERSTAND ANYTHING?

You say new members don’t care about Robert’s ill reputation with the pretty looking boys. Does that surprise you? We never did care because there were a hundred others who continued acting as if it were the most normal thing while they tried to awaken without ever bothering to look at what was going on around them.

There are hundreds of professionally blindfolded people inside, but you who seem to have half an I open, what are you doing in there? I have personally much appreciated people like you who stayed for some time and told us about the process but when someone like you starts talking like this it is very sad to realize how powerful it is and how little we’ve accomplished here.

I also don’t really care if while we do our own process on the blog, the Fellowship keeps on its tracks, we are not here to sacrifice ourselves for it, we already did that for too long and it is in affirming ourselves that in the long run, we’ll have a better chance to help our selves, if no one else.

Everything you say about the Fellowship does not matter to me. What matters is you. Are you afraid to leave? You should be, it is like the changing of a skin for a human being and it is extremely hard when you’ve really been in like some of us were but it is also like taking somebody else’s skin off that didn’t belong to you and walking into your own. One’s own might not be very pretty, one’s world might not be as programmed and mechanicallized as the Fellowship but it is one’s own adventure and that is magnificent! Do you realize that the only thing that really keeps people in the Fellowship is that they have so progrmmed themselves that they feel secure? That what keeps them inside is fear of life? If they were not so afraid do you think that they would disconnect from it so severely? Do know that Robert disconnects from it so badly only because he knows that he could not get away with his lifestyle in it? That he has set it all up so that he cannot be questioned? How have you managed to forget or become blind to that fact? And life, life is a great place to be in, no matter how chaotic it may seem! There are “millions” of people struggling for a more conscious world but how could you know when you are not even allowed to look at the news in the FOF?

Thank you for your courage to write here. You don’t need permission, it is free and you’re welcome!

Daily Cardiac, For all your reasoning you cannot reason what you consistently avoid. Voluntary blindness is not consciousness either.
The fact that you cannot feel pleasure or pain does not make you conscious, just frigid, one of the main characteristics of Fellowship veterans.

92. Wondering - October 25, 2008

Hey Mr Cardiac, in post #6 above you state;

“You talk of dire times for the FoF but as I experience things the school has never been more healthy and vibrant.”

If that’s the case, shouldn’t you be thanking all of us for leaving.

You then go on to state;

“It’s true some good friends have departed lately, and at a greater frequency than before. But I see it as a healthy process.”

Well, I don’t want to speak for other people on the blog, but I would venture to say that we all agree with you; those that have departed do consider leaving a very healthy process.
__________________________________________________________________
Regarding post #65 from “Someone”, I couldn’t agree more. It’s the only thing that makes sense of why so many seemingly intelligent people would allow themselves to be involved with such an extreme sexual manipulator/predator.

93. Crouching Tiger - October 25, 2008

85 Dragon.

The law can be found everywhere. Here is Ibn Arabi, one of the greatest of the Sufis:

“It is within good behaviour to be angry and to seek to punish when this is justified by the religious code. Anger is one of the great sins if it is aroused by wrongs done to you personally. But it is permissible and right and a part of correct behaviour and good character to become angry because of something done against Allah and His divine precepts, to manifest it, and to fight for Allah’s sake.”

Interestingly, he goes on:

“Treat well those who are dependent upon you – the people who work for you, your children, your wives and husbands, your mothers, sisters, friends, the animals in your care, the plants in your garden. Allah has given them into your hands to test you. Treat the ones in your care as you want the One in whose care you are to treat you. ‘All of Creation are Allah’s dependents’.”

94. unoanimo - October 25, 2008

Hello Moderator ~

Email me (or Dragon) and we can work on this; Arthur emailed and spoke of computer difficulties…

Laura ~

There’s a new (The first complete edition of) Tibetan Book of The Dead available, with an intro. & commentary via the Dalai Lama.

Here’s one for the Earth and all our anonymous lovers ~

“I beseech you all, O teachers, infinite buddhas without exceptions,
To remain [present] and not pass into nirvana,
And to continue to enact deeds of extensive benefit for the sake of beings,
Until the world-systems of cyclic existence have been emptied!”

T.B.o.t.D. Page 65 (The [ ] marks are theirs.)

Ellen ~

Your description reminds me of a meeting note with the ‘Grandmother Yage’; ‘she’ too accesses these disowned voices and taxi’s in their bodies too; particularly their emotional-presence-effects and particularly ‘personal’ omni-present consciousnesses, i.e., their subliminal or subconscious relationships to our consceince and daily habits, actions, opinions and personal ‘flare’ and they teach too! As I am sure you’ve found out; that our devils do not seem to be ignorant of their circumstance, nor are they confused about the inevitability of the mortality of the bodies they’re in and what this implies in regards to time and quality of life.

To meet the beings from where these voices originate from; to see how we’ve been adopted by them, foster children of sorts and children of parents who were and are foster children of the same and so on… (?) An idea…

To get the Earth’s sky to turn back to pristine clearness (not blue) will be a sacred and most loving, humbling project.

How did it go for you? Was there personal redemption from your confessions and a fundamental change initiated? I’m curious: that “energy” needed for your cushion: Yes. Gurdjieff mentioned that our sexual fluids are the most precious articles we possess… IMO, that basin is the epicenter of the next stage.

95. somebody - October 25, 2008

Hey folks, do not confuse Someone and Somebody. 2 different people!

96. Yesri Baba - October 25, 2008

“Many of these students do occasionally enter this Blog and if anyone here wishes to address them, you cannot be in a state of mind emitting expressions like “mediocre shits” to reach their hearts and minds.”

Ok, how ’bout : mediocre taint lickin’, queaf sniffin’ retard?

97. arthur - October 26, 2008

FOFBLOGMODERATOR (89), Unoanimo and Dragon.

This computer is viral infected, they think. Before coming here I had to shut down and start over. “Detecting proxy settings”?

A computer person came over today to rid the machine of a virus and install something that would detect a virus in the future. Unfortunately, his efforts failed. Something about the CD-ROM and a Password that disallowed him to enter.

So, he will rumage around his workshop and find another CD-ROM or take the machine apart to bypass whatever needs by-passing.

Unoanimo and Dragon thanks but I like what’s happening now.
No pay-pal.

Also Unoanimo, some photos were taking of the “stub/stump” but it’s up to the photographer to have them developed. And, I received the plants I was telling you about.

As Paul Harvey would say, “and now you know the rest of the story”.

98. nigel harris price - October 26, 2008

88 lauralupa

Hell and back – isn’t that part of the journey?…..Nigel.

99. Greg Goodwin - October 26, 2008

Hello Everyone-

The blog moderator has been gracious enough to allow me back this one time to pop my head in and say I’m sorry to all those that I have offended. I have been taking new medication that seems to be working quite well and I feel I’ve been long over due in apologizing for my inexcusable past behaviour. Wishing you all the best.

Greg

100. Yesri Baba - October 26, 2008

Greg, I wish you well. God knows, we all got plenty of crazy.

101. fofblogmoderator - October 26, 2008

#99 is newly moderated

I can’t tell by the email address if it is really Greg. Since the content indicated a desire to post only once, I let it through. That email address is now flagged.

102. lauralupa - October 26, 2008

hi, Greg! best of luck to you

Nigel, absolutely…

speaking of which, I offer you the Daily Song:

from the east to the west: Japanese bossa nova singer takes a psychedelic journey through the looking glass

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ISw4Q-z1uPQ

103. dragon - October 26, 2008

Hi Greg, Hi fofblogmoderator,

Thank you for the possibility to contact the blog, thank you for speaking to us. It is the intention that makes the difference.

Greg if you are really Greg and if you value everybody on the blog (the blog is a very vivid, colourful, often healing, “why”-asking, humourous, earthy joking but also laughing community with a wide range of opinions) please ask the fofblogmoderator (it is his decision to ask the blog) wether you should participate again.

104. dragon - October 26, 2008

102. Lauralupa

wonderful link! I gain a lot from your posts!

105. dragon - October 26, 2008

unoanimo, arthur

thank you for your messages and your help.

Arthur I hope the virus will be isolated with the aid of a virus kit or something….

106. Crouching Tiger - October 26, 2008

88 Lauralupa

Thanks for an excellent post… Right on the money!! I don’t want to add anything because it can’t be improved!…..

107. nigel harris price - October 26, 2008

88 lauralupa

Just as an addendum – was it you who recommended Ayuvedic Teachings? One of my students (initials GF, by the way), who is no longer with me (only stayed for two classes), told me that part of the Vedic Path is going back to remeet your demons (a total spiritual cleansing, I think). In actual fact, I am finding out a great deal about my students and their ability to contribute, practicallly/physically and psychologically. God, I’d let them have the course for free, if I could afford it!…..Nigel.

108. dragon - October 26, 2008

93.Crouching Tiger – October 25, 2008

“Treat well those who are dependent upon you – the people who work for you, your children, your wives and husbands, your mothers, sisters, friends, the animals in your care, the plants in your garden. Allah has given them into your hands to test you. Treat the ones in your care as you want the One in whose care you are to treat you. ‘All of Creation are Allah’s dependents’.”

———————————————————

Good base of opinion! Good base of research.

But was Ibn Arabi the mediator of the law? Is Sufism your law? How do you define it? Do you know the very beginnings of Sufism?

Do you rather prefer for your inner self the idea of a strong god who enables his followers to develop anger (holy or “healing” anger) justified by the religious code whenever it is necessary?

Who is the guardian of the proper use?

Did you enter the FOF for the purpose of doing research in this topic?

The eternal law? Why don’t you study this at the university (philosophy)?

Do you need the limitation and the empowerment of a religious group? (the travelling, the borrowed luxury, the language code, the rules….)

I think you have great talents and I hope you will make a lucky jump, Tiger!

Please enjoy:

109. Crouching Tiger - October 26, 2008

108 Dragon.

So many questions! Ibn Arabi was just one example I happened to come across in answer to your original question a few posts back.

I am not in the fellowship any more – left last year… although it sounds like you think I am!

I was part of the research group, and I did research the Sufis in some depth – until I realised that what was required was marketing-type soundbytes rather than the real meanings in their contexts…

I’ll give one example: There is a well-known saying of Mohammed, “Even if you cannot see Him, remember that He can see you” that Ibn-Arabi refers to. In the original text, it means that Allah is always watching, being-present to your own life is always possible. But in Robert Burton’s meetings it came out as ‘Beware, The King of Clubs is always watching you’. That tells you a lot about the fellowship’s view of things.

110. Crouching Tiger - October 26, 2008

Thanks for the link – it is very nice!

111. nigel harris price - October 26, 2008

109 Crouching Tiger

Trouble is, as I have mentioned before, that REB is about the biggest King of Clubs machine ever to ‘grace'(?) this planet. He is the devouring Anti-Christ and is able to whizz about the planet and pose as a Superior King of Hearts (is it the 9?). The trouble I found with most ‘inner circle’ FOFfers that I came across during my ‘in’ time, was that they were always on display (as though ‘Robert said’ was always in the back of their thoughts and actions). Are we not attempting to become Real People? (Even you can answer this, DC!)…..Nigel.

112. dragon - October 26, 2008

109. Crouching Tiger

I’ll give one example: There is a well-known saying of Mohammed, “Even if you cannot see Him, remember that He can see you” that Ibn-Arabi refers to. In the original text, it means that Allah is always watching, being-present to your own life is always possible. But in Robert Burton’s meetings it came out as ‘Beware, The King of Clubs is always watching you’. That tells you a lot about the fellowship’s view of things.

Did you feel about your research and work like “dirty dishes” and was this your ultimate reason to leave the FOF?

Could you please explain the term “king of clubs”.
I was never in the FOF. Is it a “big brother is watching you” entity in the meeting of the other I’s?

113. ton - October 26, 2008

drag on around 84…. ‘First of all did you adress your “shit” classification to all on the blog?’

there’s an old saying in my country: ‘if the shoe fits….’

but on the other hand, the blog is not about you per se ~ the ‘bullshit/horseshit’ post is meant as a general commentary on one aspect of the nature of human communication and in that sense it does apply in some cases here on the blog…. but more specifically the ‘bullshit/horseshit’ post relates to the root cause and indeed how and why this blog has come into existence in the first place… for an illustration and example of ‘bullshit/horseshit’ there’s a link to the ‘via del sol’ journal on a previous page here on the blog…. if you care to go back and look it up you might see the ‘bullshit/horseshit’ post in that context…. speaking of context, you might already understand the ‘bullshit/horseshit’ — beyond the musings on this blog — if you were a member of the fellowship; were you? if the answer is ‘no’ then that may explain your question. if the answer is ‘no,’ i wonder what is your connection here and what is your motive?

by the way, I can appreciate your sarcastic attempt at humor but bamboo and cosmetics misses the point…. here’s one to add to your ‘shit list’ that’s sure to be more to the point:

“Poppycock – Anglicized form of the Dutch pappekak, which literally means soft dung or diarrhea (from Dutch pap pap + kak dung) – is an interjection meaning ‘nonsense’ or ‘balderdash’.”

114. Ellen - October 26, 2008

#94, Uno,

That voice dialog experience was really empowering in the fullest sense of the word. People have posted here in the past about spiritual bypassing. So, in a retreat like that it was possible to meet up with lots of disowned energies. Yes, quite possibly like visits to Grandmother Ayahuasca, though I haven’t experienced her. The net effect energetically being quite profound. Then you take those unblocked energies back to the cushion, to your family, to your job, to humanity; wiser, lighter, and happier for the journey.

Genpo’s interest in voice dialog – even from the start – was to make the non-dual voices more accessible to his students, that’s how the process began. Yet he discovered along the way (and continues to discover) that it was the dualistic voices, especially the disowned ones, that when resolved or matured provide the balanced fuel for any kind of living realization.

Robert used to like to speak about the (keys) concept of the centers and parts of centers washed clean and coming out white (like a detergent commercial!). The concept isn’t bad, but that means you can’t ignore energetic entities like the Bitch, the Narcissist, the Competitor, or the Sexual Pervert, because as long as you do, those voices will be in control of your life – but you just won’t know it!

#109, Crouching Tiger,

I’m continuing to enjoy your posts. Yes, taking things out of context is one of Robert’s specialities. Deductive logic (guided by all his disowned voices) which he claims to be inductive.

115. nigel harris price - October 26, 2008

I’m getting lost here! Did I miss some experiences in the FOF (or out of it)? Well, probably, but I’ll peresevere with the blog…..Nigel.

116. Yesri Baba - October 26, 2008

“Poppycock – Anglicized form of the Dutch pappekak, which literally means soft dung or diarrhea (from Dutch pap pap + kak dung) – is an interjection meaning ‘nonsense’ or ‘balderdash’”

also- what RB goes after before Sonnycock.

117. Rear View Mirror - October 26, 2008

Checking in…

DC 6: “What strikes me as odd is how absolutely sure some former members are regarding just what RB and FoF are. They have eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong in their assessment (I know this from their own words).”

Actually, we all realize that we were a lot more than “slightly wrong” in our “assessment” of RB and FoF. Are you kidding?

We were wrong when we paid our hard-earned money to join the cult and to support the FOF scam.
We were wrong when we failed to listen to the criticisms.
We were wrong when we “buffered” what RB’s true intentions were.
We were wrong when we followed his ideas, which are based on fear and delusion.
We were wrong when we stayed because of that fear.

So, how is it again that we’ve “eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong”? Much of what people are doing on the blog has been an acknowledgment of one of our biggest mistakes — believing the lies of the FOF. Believing our own lies, believing RB’s lies, and believing your lies as well, DC.

118. 'I see' said the blind man - October 26, 2008

70, Someone

People who are attracted to the FOF are likely to be middle class. How interesting or capable they are is a worthwhile question. As has been stated many times previously on the earlier pages of this blog, members were welcomed into an exclusive group of folks who ‘got it’. They were told they were selected by the gods to come together and form the body of an esoteric school second only to Christ’s.
US members who have lived abroad, lots of foreigners, focus on art, a vineyard, the whole Ark nonsense and Burton’s False Prophet thing with all the erroneous predictions, etc – sure we all felt special. I am sure those who remain, not just in the FOF – but also in the mindset that the blog has helped expose as being unworthy of a man or woman with a conscience, feel even more special.
Again, a major portion of what we spent our time talking about was how wonderful the FOF was and how wonderful the gods are and how grateful we are for their being in our lives, how wonderful Burton is, how lucky we are to have one another and the gods and Burton, how special it all is and how significant and unusual this secret is. In fact it is what life on earth is all about, we actually justify the whole ray of creation.
Over the years I was in the FOF, I found that people were actually a lot less interesting or intelligent than I at first supposed. What made them worthy of belonging was that they towed the line and everyone who has stayed beyond a year or two must have had issues where they knuckled down and accepted BS because the alternative would be to be sidelined or encouraged to leave.
There is a real culture of mediocrity in the FOF, because no process of individuation is possible within the FOF. The authority that anyone has there, derives from their ability to regurgitate. Maybe some put a little of their own garnish on top of the slop, but essentially, it is the same stuff that Burton fed them.
Have you considered, that a major reason for people to stay in the school is that they are not up to making it under non-cult conditions. You can justify being poor and stupid if you have given up your will to a cult and in return have an identity that elevates you way beyond what you deserve. You can go to Marysville and think ‘thank the gods for sacred Isis’ or whatever you call it now. You are disparaging of what you call A influence, but are one of the worker bees shoring up the hive of a super queen who is lustful, gluttonous, greedy, slothful, wrathful, envious, prideful, fearful and angry. (7 + 2), what can be more A influence than that. You have just invested too much in the lie and don’t have the courage to do something about it. Yes, that is mediocrity and you may well qualify as a mediocre shit.
You can seem very sincere and make eye contact till your balls tingle, but the sanctimonious, feel-goodish, unintelligent, sound bite driven, self-righteous and indulgent institution you have exchanged your search for makes you mediocre.
Burton has said that the FOF is the start of a new civilization and that we are all involved with something really big. Well go for it guy. At least you know that as you will never see the fruition of what you are working towards you can never be disappointed, just hang in there and know that you are special. The only reason you haven’t done anything else with your life is that you have been chosen by the gods. You have it in you to do other things, that you remain in the FOF is not because you are a looser, its because you are a winner.

119. lauralupa - October 26, 2008

‘I see’ said the blind man 118
hell, yes!
beautiful little robots

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WPqkAYGlynI&feature=related

120. lauralupa - October 26, 2008

anyway, people the “ex-student/current student” horseshit is really rearded. How could we ever be separated? Nothing is separated in this whole fucking universe!

Twelve Principles for Understanding the Universe and the Role of the Human in the Universe Process
by Thomas Berry
1. The universe, the solar system, and the planet Earth, in themselves and in their evolutionary emergence, constitute for the human community the primary revelation of that ultimate mystery whence all things emerge into being.

2. The universe is a unity, an interacting and genetically-related community of beings bound together in an inseparable relationship in space and time. The unity of planet Earth is especially clear: each being of the planet is profoundly implicated in the existence and functioning of every other being.

3. The capacity for ordered self-development, for self-expression, and for intimate presence to other modes of being must be considered as a pervasive psychic dimension of the universe from the beginning.

4. The three basic laws of the universe at all levels of reality are differentiation, subjectivity, and communion. These laws identify the reality, the values, and the directions in which the universe is proceeding.

5. The universe has a violent as well as a harmonious aspect, but it is consistently creative in the larger are of its development.

6. The Earth, within the solar system, is a self-emergent, self-propagating, self-nourishing, self-educating, self-governing, self-healing, self-fulfilling community. All particular life-systems must integrate their being and their functioning within this larger complex of mutually dependent Earth systems.

7. The human emerges within the life systems of Earth as that being in whom the universe reflects on and celebrates itself in a special mode of conscious self-awareness. The human is genetically coded toward further cultural coding, by which specifically human qualities find expression in a remarkable diversity in the various regions of the Earth.

8. Domestication: transition to village life and greater control over the forces of nature took place in the Neolithic period, 12,000 years ago; beginnings of agriculture, domestication of animals, weaving, pottery and new stone implements.

9. The classical civilizations: progressive alienation of the human from the natural world; the rise of cities, elaborate religious expression in ritual and architecture, development of specialized social functions, increase in centralized government, the invention of writing and related technologies.

10. The scientific- technologic al- industrial phase: the violent plundering of the Earth takes place, beginning in Europe and North America. The functioning of Earth is profoundly altered in its chemical balance, its biological systems, and its geological structures. The atmosphere and water are extensively polluted, the soil eroded, and toxic waste accumulates. The mystique of the Earth vanishes from human consciousness.

11. The ecological age: a new intimacy is sought with the integral functioning of the natural world; destructive anthropocentrism is replaced with eco-centrism; transition to the primacy of the integral Earth community.

12. The newly developing ecological community needs a mystique of exaltation and finds it in the renewal of the great cosmic liturgy, which celebrates the new story of the universe and its emergence through evolutionary processes.

http://www.astepback.com/12principles.htm

121. lauralupa - October 26, 2008

“retarded”

122. brucelevy - October 26, 2008

118. ‘I see’ said the blind man

Very well said.

123. unoanimo - October 26, 2008

Ellen ~

Thank you for your reply; the take-home-goods are the incredible part (not that there are parts less incredible), i.e., the work to be done to integrate the growth proposed and prayers answered/meeting you ‘half-way’. Conscience and Being (being) closer together…

You wrote ~

“Robert used to like to speak about the (keys) concept of the centers and parts of centers washed clean and coming out white (like a detergent commercial!). The concept isn’t bad, but that means you can’t ignore energetic entities like the Bitch, the Narcissist, the Competitor, or the Sexual Pervert, because as long as you do, those voices will be in control of your life – but you just won’t know it!

Yes and for me, these voices (and actions) eventually met with the brick wall of my consceince: not a soft landing, though a valuable lesson in growing and getting to see deeper the difference between living in my head ‘The Struggle for the Trophy so to Get Qualified for the Next Competition’ and those actual results showing themselves in real time via my daily life (Without the clear glass pane, there’s no canvas for god’s silver to bring us the invention of ‘mirror’.) …

These forces you speak of are also entrenched in the FOF on a family scale and not just individually/personally ‘exercised’. There’s a sense of group empathy, though for me, there were no tools for ‘self redemption without permission/approval’ (This was an indication more of my personal development ‘stage’ and not the FOF’s fault; I have given the FOF too much of my own shit so to make my pail shine and ‘seem’ less heavy, though it’s still a poop-can…) External permission from a person cannot be a ‘key’ ingredient in redemption, though it sure gets the stomach stirred up and vomiting, which is a good thing; it also creates hope and comradeship, though no fundamental changes…

It’s all inside ultimately; the FOF does offer a solution (subconsciously and rightly embedded ‘in’ its system of hierarchy, affirmations and promises), i.e., the reasons to leave and continue your work as a step into consceince and an investment in a sort of courage in being yourself …

Wouldn’t it be something if all sports games were set in such a way that the struggle was to get to a point of a tie, and then end the game and go home?

Dragon ~

Welcome to the blog: for me at least, your not being an FOF veteran does not disqualify your presence here; you were born from a womb and entered this world from who knows where and going who knows when and where… I think that’s enough…

124. ton - October 27, 2008

‘uno’ 123

“Dragon ~ Welcome to the blog: for me at least, your not being an FOF veteran does not disqualify your presence here…”

‘disqualification’ was the furthest thing from my mind, it’s certainly not what i meant to imply or suggest…. but i can see why you might infer that from my last post/questions to ‘dragon’ (I’ll assume that’s where your remark is coming from). i’m curious about — and don’t think it unreasonable to ask, how this ‘dragon’ came to find the site and the motivation here. in case i didn’t ‘sound’ welcoming enough before, and for what it’s worth i’ll ‘say’ i agree that past or present membership in the FOF should not be criteria for blogging here.

125. unoanimo - October 27, 2008

Hello ton ~

It was an overall ‘campfire feeling’ that I felt was stirring around in general and not from one post specifically. Of course, admittedly, yours sorta helped…

I agree with the general ‘feeling’ though: certainly if we were all sitting around a campfire in the Grand Canyon basin and suddenly, at about 3:16 AM we suddenly notice some dude sitting between the two of us who wasn’t there are 3:15 AM, and having heard no footsteps or a formal introduction, yes, there would be some marveling to do…

So, Dragon, what’s the scoop? Can you show us your tattoo?

126. More history needed? - October 27, 2008

Incroyable, increible, unbelievable, unglaublich, 怪談

Go to GF website. Find Ch-rl-s T wedsite and their is a sound track called Evil Guru.

Listen to this masterpiece and enjoy….the Evil Guru ballade/ song/ masterpiece.

Spread the word and music.

127. X-ray - October 27, 2008

118. ‘I see’ said the blind man

Very deep.

128. Crouching Tiger - October 27, 2008

112 Dragon

The research ‘octave’ was in a way typical of my experience in the fellowship. On the one hand, I really enjoyed the opportunity to connect with so many valuable Sufi texts – I must have spent almost £1,000 of my own money on buying the books. They helped me deepen my sense of my own Work.

My frustration started to build initially when I saw that only very short sentences were required for RB’s meetings. These usually very simple sentences were ‘keyed’ in a paint-by-numbers kind of way that held no appeal for the deeper emotions and thoughts that I was experiencing during my research. Longer quotes, or ones that did not ‘fit’ exactly, were frowned upon….

I later found out that most researchers did word searches based on the topic, rather than read through the books as I was doing. This increased the feeling of shallowness about the entire process.

So the opportunity to increase my own understanding was a very invigorating one, just like many of the ‘tasks’ we were set in the fellowship. The problem came with end product, with the final use/misuse. And as I say, this was typical of my experience. There could be tremendous emotional ‘highs’ and experiences of presence, then someone would come along and ask you to be in a photo with RB – cost £50-100…

Once I bought a flimsy booklet printed on fancy paper about the 30 ‘imperhisable work I’s’ only about a dozen or so pages – cost £45. I began to feel that the highs were deliberately created to loosen you up for the concrete, monetary demands. So in a way my own Work and energy were being siphoned off and actually used against me!

And let’s get something straight about the Work I’s. There were first 6, then 8, then 14 before it was discovered that 30 was the magic number! Some of these ‘imperishable thoughts’ were also a real stretch: ‘Read (with presence)’!!!! The think-tank was really struggling to make up the numbers there…

So I wouldn’t describe the research experience as being the main reason for my leaving, but it did show me how the fellowship worked.

How were you drawn to the Blog, having not been in the fellowship?

129. Ellen - October 27, 2008

Uno,

“Wouldn’t it be something if all sports games were set in such a way that the struggle was to get to a point of a tie, and then end the game and go home? ” Yes! Or really own your personal commitment to excel by having an excellent time playing – even as children do. I think the people who really excell at sports and over a long time period – not just the shooting star phenom – realize that the struggle is always within. I saw a great interview with Andre Agassiz and Steffi Graf a few years ago. What fantastic people.

One P.S. to the voice dialog stuff that occurred to me later after post #114 is related to the “coming out white” thingy. One series of voices G. took us through towards the end was the Cup. The Full Cup, the Empty Cup, which then transmorphed into the Conduit. The Blocked Conduit, the Deviating Conduit, and The Empty Conduit. Even an Empty Conduit has color, some bit of texture that at least can be described, transparency or opacity – and of course, there are a selection of energies that may pass through it.

In that sense (energetically), I like this quotation from Beryl Markham, an African Bush pilot from the 1920’s to a departing young neophyte, “Trust in God and keep your bowels open!”.

Good luck and happy trails to all….

130. Ellen - October 27, 2008

#128, Crouching Tiger

Robert seems to rely on people not doing their own homework. Any student who begins to study any one particular tradition or realized being in depth will quickly discover the large discrepancy between interpretations. So additionally, Robert also counts on the “high” produced from sustained efforts to be present to override any cognitive dissonance. Quite a mix.

131. Daily Cardiac - October 27, 2008

RVM – 117:

DC 6: “What strikes me as odd is how absolutely sure some former members are regarding just what RB and FoF are. They have eliminated any possibility of being even slightly wrong in their assessment (I know this from their own words).”

“Actually, we all realize that we were a lot more than “slightly wrong” in our “assessment” of RB and FoF. Are you kidding?”

Good Point RVM. So, if you were so wrong about everything then how can you be so sure about everything now? Where did you master the very human tendency to err? The FoF?

132. Ellen - October 27, 2008

#131, DC

Relativity stops at the Self. Absolutely objective and absolutely subjective. And no difference between the two. So, yes, the Fellowship can lead one to a great awakening. But the answer is far different than what any of us may have imagined.
*****
“The aim of this system is to bring man to conscience….Conscience helps a man to realize what is good and what is bad in his own conduct.” – Ouspensky
*****
The Fourth Way is intended as a system of Self knowledge. A good guide leads you to your own Self – and releases you as soon as possible. A bad one lead you to himself, all the while telling you he is leading you to yours. The mind can’t see through it but the heart can. So yes, the Fellowship can bring one to an intensely uncomfortable moment of Self knowledge, for which buffers need to be released not constructed.

Many posters here recognize that your buffers are extremely well built, especially when it comes to realizing an alternate, extremely uncomfortable view of Robert Burton’s intentions, let alone the spiritually wayward path downwhich he is leading his ardent followers. But maybe RVM will be able to explain it even better to you than I ever can?

133. unoanimo - October 27, 2008

“Where did you master the very human tendency to err?”

Show me the novice? We are all masters at this; born that way and will leave this Earth that way…

You’re still in the FOF, I am still on the Earth; let’s not argue anymore about this lagoon and find some reasonable place to drag Narcissus so that he can sleep it off and not get eaten by a thirsty Oregon House mountain lion.

134. lauralupa - October 27, 2008

more history needed 126
Nice
The spark of creativity is fired by the fuel of real emotions…

Time for you Oregon Housers to load your ghetto blasters and loud car stereos (what? no ghetto blasters?) and fill the air with your songs of freedom!

135. Renald - October 27, 2008

129. Ellen – October 27, 2008

“ “Wouldn’t it be something if all sports games were set in such a way that the struggle was to get to a point of a tie, and then end the game and go home? ” Yes! Or really own your personal commitment to excel by having an excellent time playing – even as children do. I think the people who really excel at sports and over a long time period – not just the shooting star phenom – realize that the struggle is always within.“

The above reminded me of the national sport of Myanmar. It encompasses the spirit of those thoughts. A short film was made about it by a fellow from Toronto and I acquired it through the Spiritual Cinema Circle and if memory serves me right both the sport and the film were called “ Shinlone“. We found it enjoyable.
So yes, it is possible. Cheers!

136. Ellen - October 27, 2008

Hey all,
Just watched a film tonight: “What the bleep do we know!?” (2004). Quantum physics meets neuro science and evolutionary consciousness. Excellent film. http://www.whatthebleep.com/

137. unoanimo - October 27, 2008

Renald ~

Thank you for the introduction to a most mystical and curious ‘situation’.

138. lauralupa - October 27, 2008

128. Crouching Tiger
“I began to feel that the highs were deliberately created to loosen you up for the concrete, monetary demands. So in a way my own Work and energy were being siphoned off and actually used against me!”

130. Ellen
“So additionally, Robert also counts on the “high” produced from sustained efforts to be present to override any cognitive dissonance.”

excellent observations! “Divine Presence” the FOF way is just a great way of hypnotizing the sheep for the shearing.

I just stumbled upon a web page full of interesting Gurdjeff quotes, many of which I was not familiar with, including this little episode:

There is a story that deals with the theme of total surrender, as if often asked of the disciple archetype. Gurdjieff, a spiritual teacher
at the beginning of the 20th century, was on a trip by car. At one point the lights stopped working and Gurdjieff asked his disciple to sit on the hood of the car and hold a flashlight. The disciple was about to climb up to do as asked, when Gurdjieff stopped him, asking “Does it not occur to you that this is a completely idiotic request?”

DC
“So, if you were so wrong about everything then how can you be so sure about everything now?”

You may imagine yourself to be waxing philosophical here, but in your insistence on this style of (what’s the right adjective here? vacuous? insipient? unimaginative? unnerving? desperate?solipsistic?) rebuttal you are sounding ever more dangerously like a preschooler.

Please, get off the Buddha hood and turn off that flashlight, for Christ’s sake

139. dragon - October 27, 2008

128. Crouching Tiger

That’s precisely what I implied with „dirty dishes“.
Thanks for your post tiger.

OK. I have told “the Blog” still parts of the story about “how were you drawn to the Blog”.

Last year I had an encounter with a FOF-member. (It is funny, a story in the story but my grandmother had also an encounter with exactly this person during WW2).

I’ll try to report brief and succinct.

After several meetings this friendly person showed many contradictions.

Talking of angels and love she quoted sentences like: Look over there these human beings nothing but ants they are like insects asleep.

I tried to talk with her but a discussion was impossible.
My answer was: “Oh, that seems to be a very elitist metaphor to me.”
No chances to do something like a dialogue.

The person had lend me a book about Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and asked me wether I liked the possibility of joining a group that was doing research about the spiritual development of a few unique and hand-picket human beings.

Excellent conditions, travelling, only doing what I would prefer for my development, concerts, lectures, museums, banquets…… No head, only friends.

I replied this story would appear like a sweet fairy tale for adults. When I told that I was counting myself fortunate (I can participate in all this tempting candy but I am glad that I have the possibility to share my life with a family, with friends, with a spellbinding work) the persons answer was a flat whispered oh.

By pure chance, I saw another day in my favourite bookshop this person putting bookmarks in several titles. After a while, I took it from a scientific book concerning methods of natural healing, above which I had talked to this person.

The person didn’t notice me.

The bookmark what wonders was one of the FOF.
I informed my friends (we are working together in a group of meanwhile two clinical psychiatrists, a clinical pharmacologist, a lawyer, another natural scientist…) about this group that we never noticed before in our area.

We/I did research and we decided that I should enter the Blog because we are also concerned with the various clinical consequences of cult membership (beside all kinds of human behaviour/mental illness etc.).

It was instructive for us to read about a cult for highly educated people. On the other hand we have all children and/or nephews etc. and we are now able to inform in our daily life about this special group.
We think FOF works quite similar to Scientology regarding several procedures but with more familiarity and much more furtively.

This is like a very well protective coat for the FOF.

The thesis of my psychiatric friend is:

The intention of the Blog is to tell fragmentary about the FOF, to warn, to connect with each other, to exhibit, to have a cup of coffee but a “concerted action” leading to an investigation, a tricky situation with a blog.
Cults (+ fanatic religious groups) and their methods are more risky than bombs. Bombs might be defused!
The techniques of the FOF passed to his members are so internalised that many victims will find no way out, even if they were to find their way out of the FOF.

The FOF management pursues with the following aim, the members are required to feel unique in a special way but combined with a permanent stress level (the fear to be fired).

This method is very effectively and besides they will have the chance to learn techniques, to search and to get the miraculous.
They will pay for this opportunity, they will be “borderless” and if they will be out one day, “burned out” it is for the most of them the “last straw” to feel unique in this special way, to maintain the illusion, the illusion of possessing precious trained techniques, techniques that are still worth to keep silence in different ways or to avoid “action”. The so called forth way is still available.
Others might see through the whole betrayal they will throw away this lifebelt but it is a painful process. According to that a new mature convergence to the forth way can take place.

End of his thesis. I do not agree on all points with him.

We wish you all well and we hope without exception that the investigation will happen one day.

I think that’s sufficient for the moment!

PS I like “this person” (as mentioned above) highly and I do hope…

PS I like Zimbardo and his quote: We mustn’t create space for evil!
And sometimes I/we am/are really sarcastic! Afterwards I take a cup of tea with my friends and feel remorseful.

The two seas, thank you for reading!

140. Rear View Mirror - October 27, 2008

DC 131: “Good Point RVM. So, if you were so wrong about everything then how can you be so sure about everything now? Where did you master the very human tendency to err? The FoF?”

Yes, I anticipated that response (partly because the same has often occurred to me). This gets into many other topics — e.g., the value of following your conscience, using your gut feelings/intuition, using common sense, and making educated choices in your life based on what you’ve experienced, and based on what you’ve heard and read.

But obviously we have a very different perspective on it. In my opinion, it’s exactly the other way around: In other words: I think it’s more, “Why are religions and cults so sure of themselves?”

In a sense, nothing has changed after leaving the FOF. When I was in the FOF, I didn’t know. When I left the FOF, I still don’t know. One difference is that today I’m more acutely aware of how little I know.

By the way, I do believe it’s possible to live life productively and honestly with this realization (how little I know), and to achieve great things, to pursue one’s goals with enthusiasm, and to achieve them. And I also believe this realization can lead to spiritual growth. In many ways, it may be a spiritual realization on its own.

Anyway, best wishes, DC.

141. nigel harris price - October 28, 2008

139 dragon/140 Rear View Mirror

I am interested in psychiatric attitudes and ‘not knowing’, if I may put your two posts together. Why can we not go forward in our lives, discovering as we go, treading the ‘path of unknowing’? As far as I have found, psychiatrists want people to fit a mould and I even found that in the Fellowship of Freuds. I still have appointments with psychiatrists but the only benefit I derive from them is talking about the effect of my medication. I am heartily tired of explaining away my lifestyle to them. And next time I hear the question “What about alcohol?”, I will reply “Mine’s a Jack Daniels and Coke”…..Nigel.

142. Rear View Mirror - October 28, 2008

Hi Nigel,
I’m not qualified to discuss psychiatry and how it relates to these topics (shocking news). But I will say the following… A lot of what makes the world go haywire, when it does go haywire, are thought viruses. I keep discovering them in myself. I keep discovering them in others.

And it’s a lot easier for a thought virus to take hold when someone can’t “tread that path of unknowing,” as you describe it. (And I think that’s a beautiful expression, by the way.)

Even the most mathematical and precise disciplines, physics included, can lead us to that “place” again and again: realizing how little we know about the universe — and realizing how wondrous, mysterious, frightening, and yet beautiful it is.

“Not knowing” may be more of a springboard than an impediment. We usually see it as a shortcoming, but it’s really (in my opinion) a key part of keeping our “feet on the ground as we look at the stars.”

Whatever becomes of us, in my opinion, the biggest thought virus is anything that drains us of our inspiration, of our belief in ourselves, and of our sense of possibilities for the future — wherever we are, whoever we are. In or out.

143. elena - October 28, 2008

DC “Good Point RVM. So, if you were so wrong about everything then how can you be so sure about everything now? Where did you master the very human tendency to err? The FoF?”

Indeed, you master the tendency to err in the FOF because you pile up lie after lie disowning and disempowering yourself at every event, convincing yourself that Robert is a divine authority and that you’re in good enough hands to let go of your doubts about it.

You master the tendency to err convincing your self that if five hundred or a thousand other people are working with Robert they must be on the right track.

What do you find surprising about the fact that the only thing one really develops in a Cult is a consistent tendency to err just as you have proven post after post avoiding every significant human issue and replacing the truth with your cheap reasoning? Cheap because it is easy and superficial like an iron mold that doesn’t allow you to penetrate deeper into your own self but keeps you turning around your formatory mind repeating endlessly the same old structures that make you feel your world is in order. But it is not my dear Daily Cardiac, your mind doesn’t ever get any blood from your heart because your heart stopped beating long before you ever came close to love. You were not only crushed with pain, you became the artifice of your own doom.

Have you noticed how much vanity you have in your formatory apparatus convinced that you’re such a brilliant specimen of a man because you managed to reduce yourself to a formula that goes around in circles without ever getting anywhere but the same blind spot where it left?

When will you dare to look deep enough into your being and open the metal-box moment in which you closed your heart so definitely that you would never allow anyone or anything to let it breath again?

Have you ever explored on what ground you decided to support a Robert narcissistic sex maniac because it seemed like a good idea to love no matter what now that you had committed to not loving your self? Because the real illness of people who fall into idolatry like you and each one of you in the Fellowship Cult is that you can’t really bare your own self and all the self love, all the self pride that every human being has as a natural quality of being, falls and turns into that blind love for a man filled with infrahuman behaviour and you justify it not because of that man’s infrahuman behaviour but because you become fixed in your capacity to love what is abominable.

All those abominable acts that Robert practices so lavishly and that you in the Fellowship have managed to adorn with Roses and gold plates are the dark side that each one of you flirts with in the secrecy of your love. The morbid imagination of Robert seducing those angelic looking boys with the Versace silk tie that you managed to buy for them so that they would fall in the trap that you have planted hoping that you can watch them like Romans in the circus, being eaten by the lion without mercy. The modern circus; the Cult, in which people submit people to the “divine authority” to do as he pleases with their flesh.

And you continue to eat your fingernails or hit your head in the unbearable dilemma of not having had the guts to seduce even your own lovers because you had removed the pleasure of touching from the skin and left only the horror of watching others being submitted, including yourself, silently sitting like a dog at the galleria waiting for your turn to read the miserable angles that Robert allowed you.

Do you also watch pornography like Girard Daily Cardiac? Do you also hit yourself and scream fuck, bitch, godmother fucker at the car or the computer when you can’t control them? And other beings too? What is your little outlet when you’re not in this stage pretending that your world is so purely organized? You see, when a human being reduces himself to his formatory apparatus, there is nothing surprising about the fact that he can no longer expand the pleasure of being all over his centers, which have shrunk like peas under the pressure of the formatory apparatus that must CONTROL them at all times. Then their only source of pleasure is in their mind and they make it turn and turn convinced that they are in a merrygoround of reason, indulging themselves in their orderly thoughts, convinced that they are geniuses for keeping the world in peace even if they have to crush it to pieces to make it fit, fit, fit in their formatory apparatus.

Tell me Daily Cardiac, although you are so afraid of me that you have not once addressed me although you think yourself more powerful than Hercules, where have you concentrated your little pleasures beside organizing your thoughts and your schedules? Have you made it a habit to become a conoisseur of Fellowship wines so that you can boast to love at least wine? Do you talk about it with your friends at dinners so that they think you are a refined man, a man with taste? Or would talking about your little pleasures not be possible in this block of words in which you think all we deserve from you is the finiteness of your formatory apparatus?

I suppose you think I should show you some compassion if I were half better than you but who could show you compassion after watching you defend with insatiable lust the pleasure of holding Robert Burton as your divine master?

You poor fellows who think that your orderliness doesn’t reveal any lust, convinced that your suits and your manners have hidden the trace of sexuality from your beings and that you will fool everyone endlessly but how much more blind would one have to be to not see the lust in your controlled reasoning, that anal punctuality with which you place every word outside of your self and bury it deeper and deeper as you reason out that mimick of a life in which you’ve crystallized your self.

I do not wish you well Daily Cardiac. I wish you to crush and cramble and break and cry. I wish you every necessary suffering that will open you free. I wish you life which is death for you. I wish you love which is destruction for you. I wish you light, which is darkness for you. I wish you hell which is heaven and not the safe haven in which you’ve buried your selves alive.

I guess you think I ought to be laughing but who can laugh after seeing such things? You and I are very similar: neither one of us laughs but unlike you I cry plenty which you probably pride yourself in never doing.

144. Daily Cardiac - October 28, 2008

Wingsspread – 78:

DC – “Many people on this blog are highly perturbed by the words of current members and this perturbed nature does not correspond to having a firm grasp of the truth. The truth cannot co-exist with a perturbed state; they do not co-mingle. If someone is perturbed by another’s words it is due to some falsehood circulating in them that has not been resolved. ”

WS – “If a friend is cheated, conned, raped, had their innocence and hopes soiled and perverted, and their health broken – and no one will help or even recognize the anguish of the friend, then a sincere, loving person gets “perturbed”.

Your response is a very reasonable one; and probably at the heart of 90% of all comments on this blog since its inception. It’s a reasonable reaction from ordinary mind; the state most human beings spend their lives in. And yet a perturbed mind is unacceptable to most people who have decided to join and remain in an esoteric school. Actually this standard is not just reserved for schools.

There are wonderful role models for this principle in life; people who have figured out that a perturbed mind is a violent mind; and all forms of violence (including verbally abusing a perceived abuser) only lead to more violence, and away from truth (simply harboring perturbation inside is a form of self-violence). But it feels so good to be perturbed, so real, hence the illusion of its usefulness persists.

People like MLK, Nelson Mandella, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, all had huge reasons to be perturbed in the way you categorize and yet they rose above it. They knew it would destroy their cause if they displayed it, even if they harbored it inside. There is nothing in their words or deeds to suggest even a trace of it emanated from them.

Do not confuse this with having the urge to be perturbed, or even letting it slip out occasionally . Being free of perturbation is a moment to moment practice. Men have the potential to be perturbed with something or someone at all times. Exceptional people rise above this urge more often than not.

On the other hand George Bush did allow himself to become perturbed on 9-11-01, and for good cause he supposed. And he acted out his perturbation on Iraq and we know how that went.

From the beginning of my time on the blog, page 40 or 41, I’ve been putting forth the premise that ex members take everything on one level and yet in reality (the reality I experience in a school)) the spiritual realm is as distinct from the earthly realm as the body is from the soul.

The conditions and laws set forth to nurture a soul are not that different from those set forth to nurture a body – “As above, so below.” But spirit resides in an unseen, unheard, unfelt, electronic realm. Yet not only is it real, always with us, but when compared to the earthly, seen and heard and felt world, it is uber real.

One correlation between the two worlds is the idea that what is good for us often is not what we want, and what is not good for us often is what we want. It’s easy to verify this on an earthly level.

People regularly abuse their bodies through various forms of excesses, denials and misuses. Men, even in the face of probable death, will disregard medical or expert advice and consume substances or engage in activities that they know are harmful, even deadly, to them. The same situation holds true in a spiritual sense, with the exception that the excesses, denials and misuses are much more difficult to chart or “prove”.

I would say the most common abuse of the spirit is neglect. And this neglect takes various forms; a common one being confusing earthly needs or standards with spiritual ones.

There is an expression in athletics – no pain no gain. This also applies to spiritual matters. To advance spiritually one has to make real sacrifices, real choices, engage in real struggles. Many people don’t like to hear that let alone do that.

From my understanding the vast majority of comments by ex members emanate from ordinary morality. They all make sense from ordinary mind and make sense to ordinary mind, but they do not correspond to the reality of one who has fully committed to a spiritual life, a life in which they have sacrificed many common moral values in exchange for a spiritual “morality”, one that puts the spirit first. The spiritual life demands that the follower discount ordinary morality and put a premium on the laws and conditions of a higher existence.

So I hold to my words concerning an unperturbed mind being the only one to experience higher truths in a state some call Buddha Hood or Enlightenment.

It is an enormous task to give up ordinary mind and its morality. On the other hand the reward is enormous.

It is not something that just happens one day. Many efforts are required to experience a few moments of freedom from ordinary mind and ordinary morality; but once one has the taste of it one knows the way back a little better, and the after-taste does linger.

It appears that most ex members on the blog cannot or will not accept this premise of different levels of existence each with their accompanying laws and requirements. I say this because whenever it is brought up it meets with a huge amount of distain and ire. It’s what led me to address your comments.

In one of my first posts I mentioned that Robert’s homosexual lifestyle, his sexual liaisons with members, his preference for acquiring art objects, his seeming ignoring of people, etc. are all part of a “side show.” And that the real issues behind most people’s leaving the FoF have more to do with an elemental disconnect with the basic principles the FoF was founded on. One such principle is the one I’m pointing out now; the existence of different levels of reality/consciousness and the different understandings that each level opens up to us.

Someone (the person who uses that blog name) recently pointed out, quite accurately I feel, that most of the recent departures by long time students have more to do with an unwillingness or inability to absorb the new teachings rather than disapproval with Robert’s lifestyle. Interestingly, some of them have been able to admit this fact. Maybe all the time spent in the FoF has at least allowed them to contact their true feelings more reliably. However honesty is still not everyone’s policy.

I heard recently that someone who Robert asked to choose between the school or David Hawkins/other gurus decided to leave the school. This student later confided to other friends that he didn’t have one thought to leave the school before being asked to choose, but when given the choice he left almost immediately.

Somehow I don’t think it works like that. Someone riding a bus that goes past a BMW dealership doesn’t just yank the cord, jump out and head into the showroom and drive off an hour later with a new model and then say – “I don’t understand it, I never had one thought about buying a new car but when I saw it through the window I just had to have one.” They indeed entertained “thoughts” – impulses; they just were not in contact with them.

So for me it’s no surprise that people who refuse to admit the existence of different levels of reality/consciousness and their attending demands would one day leave the FoF.

They would leave no matter what Robert’s lifestyle was; only like the student who chose to leave when given a choice they simply were not in contact with their own deeply seated impulses. Impulses travel back and forth through us whether we are aware of them or not. This is the nature of having a lower self completely independent from our higher aspirations.

The same goes for the non-expression of negativity, the existence of a lower self, the monarchical nature of Influence C and many other principles and cornerstones of the FoF.

It’s clear these principles are not valued on the blog, but rather despised, so it’s inevitable that people who don’t value them would have left. The issue of Robert’s lifestyle is wholly irrelevant, and no ex member on the blog is ready to own up to this deception, at least not so far.

The other side of the coin is this: If Robert’s lifestyle caused someone to abandon the principles of the school then I would say that those principles were not deeply seated in that person anyway and they would have turned away from some other test if not the one connected to the teacher’s lifestyle; some other “act” in the sideshow, as indeed some have.

So, as I see it, there is a prevailing justice at work. Those who embrace the principles the school was founded on and continue embracing them through intervals, doubts, the many I’s, will remain because they are getting what they came for. Those who relinquish practicing the principles will find their connection to the school drying up until one day there is nothing left of it and leaving is the only option as they have become a “fish out of water.”

It happens all the time that people find themselves involved with endeavors they are ill suited for, or unemotional about. Maybe in some of those cases they themselves realize this and in other cases their imaginary picture will not allow them to register the truth so they blame the problem on some outside force, an insensitive superior or mentor or some other unfortunate occurrence outside of their control. In many cases that’s what’s happening on the blog.

But the vast majority of ex members fit the former case; they are people for whom the FoF did not work out one way or another and they left, started a new life, and didn’t look back. The critical ex members on this blog represent about 2 or 3 percent of all ex members. They may well be the ones who had the highest hopes when they first joined and cannot let it go.

I think ex members would be much more credible if their argument was something like: “I joined the FoF because I wanted to be more spiritually awake. The FoF claimed it had the tools to help me achieve that but in reality it did not, so I left.”

This complaint would be much more believable because it would be taking the FoF in its own context. The FoF only makes one claim to perspective students and that is to help them become more spiritually awake through presence, and it points the way to where and how to engage presence and prolong it.

But people can’t reasonably say these things because the FoF does indeed live up to what it says it offers. Lately it has perfected new tools that offer unlimited presence/consciousness to anyone willing and able to make the prescribed efforts.

The FoF makes no claim to anyone that they will agree with the lifestyle of the teacher.

There is no charter in the FoF that says the founder cannot have a private life, including consensual sex with members.

The FoF does not force anyone to remain a member if they disagree with any actions of the teacher.

RB has never forced anyone to perform any actions, sexual or otherwise, against their will.

It is very difficult to remain a member of the FoF; it’s intentionally made difficult to filter out those who are endless seekers. People are asked to give 30 to 40% of their income to remain, or to work for the school for much lower salaries than in life.

It is extremely easy to leave the FoF. No officials of the FoF will lobby for anyone to stay. Just stop sending checks and you will be officially out in 90 days.

This is not the M O of cults. It is the M O of Esoteric Schools.

Of the roughly 25,000 comments recorded on this blog there has not been one post by an ex member that has acknowledged the possible validity of anything of note said by anyone speaking positively about RB or the FoF.

There has not been one detailed post submitted by a supporter of FoF that has not undergone numerous attempts to refute or de-construct or devalue it from a multitude of ex members.

In this type of polarized environment I would say calling the blog a “Tower of Babel” is not an overstatement.

For my part I obviously would not agree with any post suggesting the FoF is a cult or Robert Burton a charlatan because I’ve verified otherwise. But there have been several reasonable attempts by supporters to explain why there is this great gulf between the two camps. This post is one such attempt.

To summarize, the Fellowship is judged to be deficient in one world (the world of ordinary morality) when its true domain exists in another world (a spirit realm that places more importance on spiritual endeavors and will often askew ordinary morality).

Additionally, those who judge the FoF deficient also do not acknowledge the existence of this other realm, its chief laws or its architects.

This sets up the never changing dynamic: When a supporter attempts to explain a possible reason why a school experience was misunderstood, like the response to Josiane’s recent post, ex members don’t acknowledge the domain being described (the Third State) so they are free to bring the observations down to the second state and judge it according to those standards.

This sets up a no lose situation for ex members and a no win situation for supporters (at least in this virtual arena).

I don’t expect ex members who appear here on a regular basis to ever budge in their approach. They will in all likelihood never agree with one iota of what any supporter says.

I do however invite any ex member to address the issue I’m pointing to and take it fully into consideration when they respond and not just give back words based on the laws of ordinary morality and tell me what I’ve been told 1000 times already.

It doesn’t shed a good light on any ex member posting here if none of you can give an answer that addresses this major inconsistency. Is any ex member secure enough to play a “what if” game?

What if there is some truth to what supporters say? How would this impact your present views and decisions? Would anyone be in a position to do anything differently, change course?

145. unoanimo - October 28, 2008

What am I neglecting by knowing it all?

146. nigel harris price - October 28, 2008

143 elena

About DC, could it be said “They that have ears and cannot hear; they that have eyes and cannot see”? Esoteric Christianity, eh, DC…..Nigel.

147. Crouching Tiger - October 28, 2008

“So I hold to my words concerning an unperturbed mind being the only one to experience higher truths in a state some call Buddha Hood or Enlightenment.” DC

I feel we are getting to the end of the road with you, judging by the vast number of words you’re using!

I’ll make a few observations first about your MO first. You are quite careful only to address issues that are ones you odinarily confront in your own ‘mental routines’. You also refer to a sense of scale, in such a way that you imply that you have it, and others here do not. There also some occasional statements that are simply not true.

Occasionally, one or two of these features can be combined. For instance, when you say, “Of the roughly 25,000 comments recorded on this blog there has not been one post by an ex member that has acknowledged the possible validity of anything of note said by anyone speaking positively about RB or the FoF”, this is not true – I have referred to the positives of life in the fellowship myself, and can clearly recall other instances by other posters.

But I feel you have a tremendous resistance to accepting that the idea of scale can applied to the fellowship itself – with the school not being at the top of that scale, as you believe! To give one example, the fellowship is seen by 4th Way schools with some direct connection to Gurdjieff as a kind of ‘lawful anomaly’ – allowed by higher forces simply by the fact that it has existed for some years and continues to exist, but an anomaly nonetheless because the truth of the teaching (which as you say is probably very ancient) has been bent by being funnelled through Robert Burton’s own particular personality. It has a role to play for certain personalities in certain situations. Many posters have attested to this experience here.

So maybe you could be more open to the possibility that RB’s own education was partial or incomplete, resulting in a mutation of the teaching….??

I can only ultimately speak from my own experience, and say that for me a sense of scale is essential in sorting through my own experiences. I try to understand what is most essential to my spiritual welfare and make a firm distinction from that which isn’t so important. An awareness that the ‘higher experiences’ in the fellowship come at a price, and one that I wasn’t prepared to pay, was central to my leaving. The price however, isn’t as you say, releasing the lower self and ordinary morality, it is giving up an essential part of your self, one that it is impossible to do without if you want balance in the lower centres and hence, a solid platform for any ‘higher experience’ that should come…

A few posts back, I gave examples where Anger is appropriate as a response in the spiritual realm. Of course, this is a very delicate area and one where a personal response can easily be substituted for one coming from a consciousness aware of spiritual law. But this is where your own sense of scale, and own lack of conscience deserts you, I believe. You conveniently demote this response to the area of ‘ordinary morality’ which doesn’t apply to the higher realm, which you believe Robert Burton inhabits all of the time. All you are actually giving evidence of is the limits of the school itself – its ignorance of the laws in that higher realm, which it has always omitted because a crucial part of the teaching is missing! There is no satisfactory meeting-point of higher and lower in the school, as it stands.

Try to see what has actually happened in the dealings with the higher realm in terms of facts…. The prophecies – all unfulfilled, sometimes to the humiliation of Robert Burton. The anointed ‘men 5’ – all leaving nearly as soon as they are anointed, or broken by physical accidents. Do you not think that these were messages about and for the school? There are solid reasons why the school can never produce men of higher understanding and action, because it is standing in the way of its own affirmed purpose.

Personally, I feel it is a tragedy that Robert Burton never steeled himself to receive the full term of his education in the spiritual realm (eighteen months?), or found the right guide to help. It is a terrible tale of wasted potential.

All I can tell you, is that I still experience ‘higher states’ regularly but the experience feels quite different to the way I experienced them in the fellowship… The framework is different, the platform is more solid, they are proving more useful all the time. When we come back to ordinary life, that is where we have to live, that is where the results of these experiences eventually have to prove their worth! But they can only do this when the irrigation system in the field is in place, so the water can flow freely and nourish every part of it in its own place and function. It is no use being ‘drowned’, as I believe most in the Fellowship are – with your lower centres in chaos. This makes it look like you’re outside ordinary morality, with all your higher states but no where to put them!…. But appearance is only appearance, my friend. It is easy to mistake chaos for being in a higher place beyond rules….

To me, the biggest illusion in the school is the assumption that all who enter are ‘men 4’. I certainly wasn’t one and I didn’t meet any who were, including GH. But this wasn’t so evident at the time, even though I felt a distinct ‘jolt’ at the time – how am I a man 4, what have I done to earn it?

But the school doesn’t have the apparatus in place to help people become balanced so that they are ready to receive gifts from ‘on high’. They have to receive the experiences any-old-how, and hope it doesn’t cause too much damage in those unprepared lower centres of theirs!

This is what I feel happened with GH, tremendous efforts were being made in a machine that had holes in its education, so that the energies – once summoned – caused a huge breakage in the machinery.

And when you look at the fellowship as an oustider, that’s what you will see – moments of great beauty but also a great unevenness, times where the opposite of beauty has to restore the lost balance – the ‘secret ugly’.

When I read through your latest post DC, it strikes me as so sad. You have many of the right attitudes in place, but kind of upside down, so that you cannot relate what you say to the reality of the fellowship. I find myself agreeing with much of what you say, but knowing that it can’t be matched by your own reality. The environment for your ideas is all, the thing that you neglect has to be the thing that you address – no amount of third or fourth state experiences will erase that necessity, they will only inflame the need for it.

148. Allan S - October 28, 2008

147.

CT, me thinks you are a REAL Crouching Tiger. Grrrrrrr.

I think your post touches on a number of important things that have motivated me to personally post.

Allan.

149. Crouching Tiger - October 28, 2008

P.S. A small addition – DC

Sometimes, I think it can be more helpful to look at things without making the spirit/matter differentiation in the manner of dispatch….

Everything that happens to you, however otherworldly it may appear, is the result of certain chemical combinations within the body. All the thoughts, feelings and sensations are chemical admixtures. But the body is the common factor, it is the vessel and we have to pay attention to what it is telling us. There is no option there.

If you think of a chemist, he will only make a combination of potentially dangerous chemicals in carefully-controlled conditions. The more unstable the chemicals, the more ‘protected’ the environment… The body is our laboratory and we have to protect it adequately before attempting the experiment of inviting higher energies into it.

In my experience, the fellowship knows how to stimulate the sex and emotional centres very well. That is a highly-combustible cocktail of chemicals, and there is a big chance of experiencing higher energies in some form, or at least something that is taken to be higher…

There are however many more shades of experience in the ‘third state’ than that description implies. It’s not one thing that is intended to somehow replace ordinary reality.

The stability of the environment – the laboratory, the body – is everything in deciding the usefulness of such experiences, on what parts of a man/woman they tend to re-affirm when he/she returns to ordinary life.

For example, if the chemist remembers only the explosion in the experiment, the heat and the bright lights, he may forget that part of the laboratory has actually been burned down in the process! If he then starts to convince himself that this scarring or deformity is somehow super-normal, or part of his ‘higher state’, then he really is in trouble.

This is what I feel has happened with Robert Burton and the fellowship. Robert Burton once said at an informal dinner at which I was present, “Beautiful flower, twisted root”. There was a sense of contentment with that twisted root. But every farmer knows that only the best seed must be used for replanting, for the next year’s harvest – not the worst…

The Blog has arisen as the result of many, many people’s efforts to resolve the apparent contradiction between flower and root in Robert Burton’s nature lived out through their own often intimate experiences of him. If the contradiction didn’t exist, the Blog wouldn’t exist either. It is the storybook of a man who has flown too close to the sun, with wings of wax.

150. Ellen - October 28, 2008

Crouching Tiger thanks for your fine, informed and balanced post.
*******************************************************************
Daily Cardiac, you seem to have forgotten my many posts that speak of my appreciation and valuation for my experiences within the Fellowship? There are others, too. Traveller, Crouching Tiger, Someone, etc… others that I can’t remember. You know, we wouldn’t be posting here if we didn’t care, if the Fellowship had not deeply touched our lives.

I read through much of your post #144 this morning. My final feeling is this: Robert Burton (and his Fellowship) is your experiential yardstick for Consciousness. Period. You place all your intelligence and energy behind that. And you have “verified” your own surrender with the experience of higher states. What more does a thirsty man (or woman) need?

You may accept that other people here have changed yardsticks, but knowing what you know, you do not consider that to be a good idea.

Now, for the other posters here, they may consider the RB yardstick to be bent or deformed, not without merits, but nevertheless to be seen more objectively – which is the one thing you can not and will not do – because your own yardstick tells you not to do that. It’s a Catch 22 (seemingly of your own making). But is it?

To look at the issue even more closely, your yardstick measures the third and fourth state of consciousness in denial of the first and second, as exemplified by Robert Burton. Many posters here use a yardstick for the third and fourth states that includes the first and second. If you want, all we are really arguing about is as simple as that.

Which approach leads to an embodied, liveable realization? Which approach denies it? Which approach leads to a realization that can help humanity, in the living here and now? And which approach denies it? And – who ya gonna vote for? Barak or Obama? 😉

151. jack - October 28, 2008

Martin Luther King.

“I say to you, this morning, that if you have never found something so dear and precious to you that you will die for it, then you aren’t fit to live.

You may be 38 years old, as I happen to be, and one day, some great opportunity stands before you and calls upon you to stand for some great principle, some great issue, some great cause. And you refuse to do it because you are afraid.

You refuse to do it because you want to live longer. You’re afraid that you will lose your job, or you are afraid that you will be criticized or that you will lose your popularity, or you’re afraid that somebody will stab or shoot or bomb your house. So you refuse to take a stand.

Well, you may go on and live until you are ninety, but you are just as dead at 38 as you would be at ninety.

And the cessation of breathing in your life is but the belated announcement of an earlier death of the spirit.

You died when you refused to stand up for right.

You died when you refused to stand up for truth.

You died when you refused to stand up for justice.”

-Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
From the sermon “But, If Not” delivered at Ebenezer Baptist Church on November 5, 1967.
jx
Amen.

152. Kid Shelleen - October 28, 2008

Daily Card,

Please ask Robert if you can post your candid aphorisms on the official FoF site right next to the shushing angel:

“The FoF makes no claim to anyone that they will agree with the lifestyle of the teacher.

There is no charter in the FoF that says the founder cannot have a private life, including consensual sex with members.

The FoF does not force anyone to remain a member if they disagree with any actions of the teacher.

RB has never forced anyone to perform any actions, sexual or otherwise, against their will.

It is very difficult to remain a member of the FoF; it’s intentionally made difficult to filter out those who are endless seekers. People are asked to give 30 to 40% of their income to remain, or to work for the school for much lower salaries than in life.

It is extremely easy to leave the FoF. No officials of the FoF will lobby for anyone to stay. Just stop sending checks and you will be officially out in 90 days.

This is not the M O of cults. It is the M O of Esoteric Schools.”

That way, everyone that believes in the fairytale of an esoteric school for the development of man will have a clearer picture of what they are signing up for.

153. Jomo Piñata - October 28, 2008

Lacuna Piñata, my brother,

From my understanding the vast majority of comments by ex members emanate from ordinary morality. They all make sense from ordinary mind and make sense to ordinary mind, but they do not correspond to the reality of one who has fully committed to a spiritual life, a life in which they have sacrificed many common moral values in exchange for a spiritual “morality”, one that puts the spirit first. The spiritual life demands that the follower discount ordinary morality and put a premium on the laws and conditions of a higher existence.

Lacuna brother, I didn’t know you were an Aleister Crowley fan! “Ordinary morality is for ordinary people.” Did you know that was an Aleister Crowley quote? Let’s try another one: “Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” Do you really believe this?!

I never thought of you as a dangerous boy growing up. The little zealotry you had was reserved for pixie stix and baseball cards. I refuse to see you as someone who could be roped into another’s evil designs and to carry them out will all efficient certainty, blinded by the desire to cast off “ordinary morality” and to “put the spirit first.”

154. unoanimo - October 28, 2008

Gratitude Crouching Tiger; beautifully said and for me, a true indication that there’s no such a thing as 13th grade for those ‘unable’ to Graduate…

Eventually it will happen on its own, like a jagged piece of granite arguing face to face with the smoother ones that the current is too fast: it’s not the current is it?

Once the rough edges are taken down, it settles amongst the others and the water has nothing to grab onto, and then, right there, the echos begin to sound and reverberate within its ‘chest’;

it has stopped ‘clinking and clamoring’, not of its own free will,

and What Happens has delivered it to the doorstep of redemption’s utter realization, that you are it and all these you’re amongst are all from one great granite boulder, somewhere way up high, above the water, above the clouds even…

155. Ill Never Tell - October 28, 2008

‘RB has never forced anyone to perform any actions, sexual or otherwise, against their will.’

This is a foremost lie of the Fellowship of Friends, and Robert Earl Burton, that has appeared here on the blog. It is the reason that most people leave the school; a school that ACTS as though you could make people be present by use of machine guns – sorry, baby, it’s the wrong triad. Sorry, DC, maybe it hasn’t happened to you – or it has and you are so asleep (numb) you don’t realize it – but the ‘forced anyone’ is happening all the time to too many. Raison d’être for REB/FoF is to make people do what they do not wish to do; so much so that it is an entrenched abusive environment. REB’s passion is to force people to do actions that are against their will.

156. whalerider - October 28, 2008

Lexicon to Daily Caridac:

Perturbed = awake

Being free of perturbation = asleep

Verify = indoctrinated

No pain, no gain = death of conscience

give up ordinary mind and its morality = death of conscience

BMW = spiritual materialism

people who refuse to admit the existence of different levels of reality/consciousness = FoF follower

Tower of Babel = projection from the Ivory Tower

“thoughts” – impulses = critical thinking

what if game = job security

157. elena - October 28, 2008

DC: “People like MLK, Nelson Mandella, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, all had huge reasons to be perturbed in the way you categorize and yet they rose above it. They knew it would destroy their cause if they displayed it, even if they harbored it inside. There is nothing in their words or deeds to suggest even a trace of it emanated from them.”

If you were to meet any of these people you would not recognize their worth, since you think someone like Robert is worth a thousand times more than these people. And how dare you name Ghandi or Mother Teresa as your banner of protection when Robert publicly demeanours them as insignificant sleep people who were feeding the dead masses of the world? I have personally witnessed him doing it. Are they now good enough for the Fellowship morality? You sick pimp. Don’t ask me to treat you any better than you are with the argument that I am less than I am if I do. Many here who still think that Fellowship mannerism is the “proper” way of acting might buy it but then they also are not willing to stand and protest in front of the gates, or sign petitions or do anything but protect their cheap comfort unless they are looking for votes.

Great men might not whine in public but they never stopped themselves from throwing up when they were sick to the stomach. That is what you’re asking people to do, that is what you’ve trained yourself to do regurgitating the same old reasoning that sounds right but is putrefied in its essence.

“The morality of a higher being” how easy to say it but why don’t you expand on it if you have a clue of what you’re saying you weakling whose mind cannot expand beyond itself, what does it mean to you to have a morality of a higher mind? How does the morality of a higher mind or soul or being justify the practices of the Fellowship where people are selected as naive as they can be found to be sheared from head to toe?

You hold up the banner that expressions of outrage are not proper of decent people, but decency was raped from its strength in the Fellowship and every other institution in which strength is only allowed by those in power. You’re not even close in convincing me of your decent manners dear, I had a teacher for seventeen years who stood on that premise and I’ll never fall for it again, never, ever will your good manners buy me out.

Even Meher Baba states that it is legitimate to go to war against your friend’s enemies when justice has been corrupted. You can try to solve your predicament with manners but we’re at war Daily Cardiac and you will not survive no matter how many times I die.

I liked the tone of your last post a little better, you’re bringing more of yourself out in it, come on you cheap pimp, get yourself into the right clothing so that you can feel the horror that people have felt when they are raped with your permission and support.

There is a higher morality and that is not the one that lends itself to the abuses of your legality but the one that is connected with karma and confronts each man in his own law. Suffering may be the law for the Jesuses of this world but eternal damnation is the law for the anti-christs and you are people whose lack of crystalline transparence between your body and soul reveals you clearly. You’re as dark as death even while you walk around in your silk clothes and your programmed smiles.

You hold up the banner of the division of body and soul with amazing pride, were you born in Robert’s bed or was it Girard who cuddled your growth? There is no separation between body and soul that can survive the light. Light holds unity. The body is the mirror that confirms the vision of light, not the scapegoat of your darkness.
The body is the hand of the spirit, if you have to hide your hand to take or give, you’re not worthy of giving or receiving. The body is life giving nurture for the soul, not the tool of torture of the dark ages in which you pretend to justify the systematic rape of young men with the act of an enlightened being. You don’t need to go to hell because you’re already burning in it you sick pimps.

You will never have an easier conversation with me because I will not grant you peace to talk. You do not deserve a space to speak, the dogma you preach is dark as muck. You might be a human being but you should be in jail like any other human being who systematically supports crime.

another great tool of authority to hold back the expression of anger, frustration and sorrow people experience from injustice.

158. elena - October 28, 2008

P.D.
Calling on good manners is…another great tool of authority to hold back the expression of anger, frustration and sorrow people experience from injustice.

Was up somewhere on the text and got forgotten in the impulse.

159. lauralupa - October 28, 2008

Daily Song

Emancipate yourselves
from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our mind.
Wo! Have no fear for atomic energy,
‘Cause none of them can stop the time.
How long shall they kill our prophets,
While we stand aside and look?
Yes, some say it’s just a part of it:
We’ve got to fulfil the book.
Won’t you help to sing
These songs of freedom?
‘Cause all I ever had:
Redemption songs

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OFGgbT_VasI

160. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - October 28, 2008

#142 RVM: I liked this so much I thought I’d repeat it. Thanks.

‘Whatever becomes of us, in my opinion, the biggest thought virus is anything that drains us of our inspiration, of our belief in ourselves, and of our sense of possibilities for the future — wherever we are, whoever we are. In or out.’

161. Lama Tongen Chic - October 28, 2008

It has been brought to my attention there is a retard named Direct Current spouting some nonsense about another ‘Realm’ ruled over by ‘Monarchical’ entities which can be contacted through some ‘Third’ state. This all seems quite important due to the Capitalization of Key Words. It is however, as an enlightened poster to this blog has pointed out, bullshit…uh…. horseshit….uh… poppycock- whatever.

Generally, in all traditions there are a hierarchy of forces symbolically representing the harmonious hierarchy of the manifest universe to the literally minded uninitiated. The Greeks had their gods, the Tibetans and Buddhists their deities, the Christians angels and demons. These are all representations of naturally occurring subtle ‘entities’ occuring through connections of the collective unconscious of apparently separate parts.

One example of this is the ‘soul’ sucking demiurge the Fellowship of Friends. This subtle ‘entity’ primarily serves to feed the voracious and insatiable cravings of its founder.. A sencondary function is as an experiment of the universe to see how much utter crap an individual meat unit will swallow and regurgitate without shame. Evidently the amount is infinite as new and ‘deeper’ piles of crap keep being shoveled.

If there was a devil, instilling the idea of a ‘realm’ separate and ‘higher’ than this magnificent, mysterious, moral manifest world into poor ignorant retards would be his crowning achievment.

162. somebody - October 28, 2008

Someone 70 wrote:
“Robert Burton does convey a deep and powerful esoteric message.”
“The true meaning of esoteric heritage.”
” Many who have left… because they ceased to understand what he is talking about… yet many others who went deeper into this new teaching and they highly value it.”

These 3 sentences drive me crazy!!!

Let’s see what is “he” talking about? The true meaning? What is the powerful message?

Just a few first angles from the Loons last week:

Message #1: The Armageddon is near. Stick together and start preparing – buy food and seeds! Only WE will survive! Whoaaaaa!

Message #2: World art holds the secret messages about the sequence which only RB can read and tell us what they mean. True meaning! (Even if it is obvious that they mean something else).

Message #3: Two most significant moments in your life are: first, when you joined FOF and second, when you start doing the sequence “in a scientific way to produce presence.” Yes, use the sequence in the scientific way. Whatever that means. Makes you feel smart… Like a scientist!

Message #4: Only instinctive center thinks that you do not need help. So, if you are on the way to becoming self-sufficient, you are BAD. “Everyone needs help, and we are receiving it.” And of coarse the payment is a principle, so come get your help, bring your money.

Message #5: Without ME, you are drowning. “When one is drowning, one does not question if one is being thrown a lifesaver that is circle, a square, or a triangle. Here I am in the San Diego Museum” (come over here I will receive you, dear)

Is it not enough?

Here is the link to the image “RB & Friends Crossing Golden Gate Bridge”. FRIENDS! Eh?

163. somebody - October 28, 2008

It is interesting to study “the Loons”. I can’t blame people for falling under this hypnoses, it is pretty powerful stuff. There is definitely a strategy and it works. RB puts masterfully to sleep everyone who attends the meeting like a magician. Notice how he gets more ruthless in the middle of the meeting, when people are off their guards. The “messages” go directly to their subconscious mind and even if they can’t remember any words after the session, it controls their behavior. I can’t believe my luck that I got out of this scary place!

If you squeeze water out of these angels this is what you come up with:

message #6:
control gesticulation – it is an obstacle to being present

message #7:
Russian student is a good boy because he is doing the sequence.

message #8:
judgment comes from mean spirited lower self.

message #9:
the lower self is irrelevant and looks bad and smoking cigarets

message #10:
you are in a state that is hard to produce without a school

message #11:
you can not do without the state you are in now. There is no wealth without this state.

message #12:
fairy tales do come true and it is happening to you – rainbow above Apollo proves it.

message #13:
discriminate good thoughts from bad thoughts

message #14:
This is why some students feel frightened by sequence – it removes the imaginary picture of who they really are.

message #15:
evolution is a process of letting go of what we think is right and holding on to what we know is right – the sequence.

message #16:
Leonardo made his left eye square on his self-portrait to hide “a key”

message #17:
we discovered a spring of water when the stock market crashed as a help from the gods to save us at the end of the world

message#18:
there is no love without this state. “To look into each other eyes with loving presence – who could ask for anything more?”

message #19:
symbols and keys are language of the third eye. I am talking diriectly to your third eye.

message #20:
the lower self is listening now but can not do a thing.

message#25:
people in life have no choice but to expend energy – it passes in and out of them unconsciously. We are fortunate to know how to use our energy to produce presence.

message #27:
it is important to be able to devalue life – not to condemn it, but to efficiently direct oneself away from it towards presence. Everyone in life is the victim of his own sleep.” We must not give life too much credit. People in life do not even know what presence is. We must not condemn life, but we must not elevate it above measure either.

message #28:
Life fills lower centers. School fill higher centers and foil death. This state foils death. There can be no presence after death if there is no presence before death.

164. elena - October 29, 2008

Thanks Somebody for your clear selection of brainwashing dogma. It is so clear how it pounds and pounds on the very areas that people in the Fellowship have allowed for fear to invade them. Armaggedon was his greatest tool from the beginning and we all thought we were so special surviving Armaggedon in a School of Consciousness. It makes me laugh out loud how naive young people are and cry how astutely pimps and their like take advantage of it.

But over five hundred students have left and they are unconcerned about the fact that a whole new generation of young people is being prepared to support the Fellowship for another fifteen, twenty years until their lives too are painted with gold plated darkness. Many people talk about reconstructing themselves and their lives after the Fellowship without connecting to it any longer. On what ground are they going to reconstruct anything if they are not willing to consider the ground they’ve tilled? Do you really think you can escape and close the door and to hell with those that continue to join? I do not understand that kind of living, what matters when only you matter?

I spent a long time at an all inclusive popular market where food, computers and birds, televisions, goats and people singing love songs mingle in their own space where anything and everyone can be repaired! The most wonderful thing about it is that once they take you they take you until they’ve finished and can spend from five minutes to five hours making whatever you need to work, work, without ever looking at the time. Then they charge a third of what it would cost in Europe or the states if they even bothered to look at it there. Time is the only thing people can give each other. I was very hard with you Daily Cardiac this morning but I will say one thing in your favor, you have given us time which is much more than I got from anyone else in the Fellowship. For that I thank you. You love the darkness and I’ll try to cut it off you but you at least have time for what you love in a world that will continue to question you down to the ground. Maybe one day you’ll leave with gratitude.

All good posts Crouching Tiger, Ellen and others. Thank you for fighting in your gentle way.

165. 'I see' said the blind man - October 29, 2008

DC 144

You make lots of points that would require a major effort to address properly. Other priorities prevent me. I’ll take the main one though, although I fully expect to bite off more than I care to chew. I’ll copy and paste some of what you wrote that pertains to it:

“…I’ve been putting forth the premise that ex members take everything on one level and yet in reality (the reality I experience in a school)) the spiritual realm is as distinct from the earthly realm as the body is from the soul.”

“From my understanding the vast majority of comments by ex members emanate from ordinary morality. They all make sense from ordinary mind and make sense to ordinary mind, but they do not correspond to the reality of one who has fully committed to a spiritual life, a life in which they have sacrificed many common moral values in exchange for a spiritual “morality”, one that puts the spirit first.”

“It is an enormous task to give up ordinary mind and its morality. On the other hand the reward is enormous. It is not something that just happens one day. Many efforts are required to experience a few moments of freedom from ordinary mind and ordinary morality; but once one has the taste of it one knows the way back a little better, and the after-taste does linger.”

“It appears that most ex members on the blog cannot or will not accept this premise of different levels of existence each with their accompanying laws and requirements. I say this because whenever it is brought up it meets with a huge amount of distain and ire. It’s what led me to address your comments.”

“So for me it’s no surprise that people who refuse to admit the existence of different levels of reality/consciousness and their attending demands would one day leave the FoF.”

“To summarize, the Fellowship is judged to be deficient in one world (the world of ordinary morality) when its true domain exists in another world (a spirit realm that places more importance on spiritual endeavors and will often askew ordinary morality).”

“Additionally, those who judge the FoF deficient also do not acknowledge the existence of this other realm, its chief laws or its architects.”

My issue with ex-FOF blog posters is that they retain much of their hierarchical, pseudo-religious midset. That in spite of the FOF experience they for the most part have hankerings after a formula that accommodates their need to conform and find pretty imagery to associate their aims with. I can only answer for myself and am sure there is much dissent amongst former members who only really stand united on this blog in having rejected the creed that you still subscribe to.
It is facile to state that ex members take everything on one level – and highly presumptuous.
One of the recourses of ex-memberdom is to be able to take certain stances that were not allowed in the FOF. One of these is to think of things in terms of right and wrong. Consciences have been primed with the volatile accumulations of many years of discord. The blog is a place for us to work through our experience and where a current member presents as irrefutable truths, ideas and dogma that formed clots in our consciences, no wonder we will not entertain them. Remember, not too long ago many of us would have been saying exactly what you are saying. We know the position very, very well.

I wonder if it is such a hard thing to give up ordinary mind and ordinary morality. I suppose it depends on what you mean. Here I think Burton and the FOF make much of something using smoke and mirrors that is really not the problem. I don’t see why 10, 20 or 30 years of intelligent work on oneself should not give palpable results and don’t see why a human being should not outgrow conventional morality by finding their own standards. I have met many interesting people and know that the process of individuation is alive and well. One friend of mine is a former Jehova’s Witness minister, he is pretty together and learnt a lot from the experience. There are many creative people in this world, artists, thinkers, poets, scientists…The fact that in the FOF one is closeted away from stimuli does not mean that outside is desert. You would be surprised. One of the crimes of the FOF is to alienate members in order to control them. Burton is cut from the jealous cloth of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

I think I can speak for all FOFers when I say that the point is not that we do not recognize different levels, it is that we do not recognize the FOF as representing a higher level.

“To summarize, the Fellowship is judged to be deficient in one world (the world of ordinary morality) when its true domain exists in another world (a spirit realm that places more importance on spiritual endeavors and will often askew ordinary morality).”

The FOF is to be judged as being deficient in the world of ordinary morality and – what is more important – it is deficient in terms of it’s claims to be a spiritual school. The MO of the FOF is exemplified in your last post. You, just like any other adherent of a cult or religion, assume that you have the answer; you possess the secret, the mystic amalgam that differentiates you from the vulgar mass of humanity. This is an entirely normal experience for a significant proportion of that mass, but whereas you believe yourself to be different, you are, in fact, one of them. Let me ask you a question:
“Why in a psychological school of esoteric knowledge where ‘know thyself’ is the motto, does no one speak of the mechanics of self-delusion, insincerity and lying to students who have got an acceptable good-student act?”
What is the ‘school’ about? If you serve a useful function (this is true in direct proportion to your usefulness to Burton), you can get away with quite a lot. This is not ordinary morality speaking, if corruption becomes obvious and you are not able to eliminate those thoughts, because something is definitely off, you are finally propelled to take a position in accordance with your conscience (you see there are more levels than one ; ). I understand your position as I have held it myself. The fact that you are openly engaged in discussing these questions is to your credit. I wonder if you are a sanctioned participant or not.
Something you did not bring up is the idea of self-remembering and being present. For me this idea was the secure anchor that allowed all else to wash over me. My verifications and the fact that we had a teacher who constantly brought us back to the present trumped all else. However, I discovered that Burton uses this idea to control his flock. After thirty some years of living as he has, sure he is different from Joe Blow, but what is the difference all about? Is he truly enlightened or is he a fraud.
The easiest way to explain my point of view is to post part of my letter to Burton on leaving:

I sincerely feel for you; a man who in getting what he strived for has paid a price that he never meant to pay and almost certainly is not consciously aware of. There is no one to tell you and you are not naturally drawn to understanding yourself. You have allowed a corrupt institution to grow around you that supports your weaknesses and you do not listen to anybody who does not tell you what you want to hear. I think that deep down it is hard for you to bear what has become of your life. The playground of your strengths and vices has become a golden prison for you. The power that used to enchant you is dull habit. Your teaching becomes more extreme as does your sex life, balancing and canceling each other out. Where is Robert Burton’s observer in the middle of all this? Can the observer endure such a close view of a man who has become a liability to his higher self and to the many students who are devoted to him? Are your constant activities the way you buffer this predicament? Could you take a week off alone without an adoring audience to give you an identity and come out of it with the same convictions?
I cannot believe in you any more. It is too improbable that you are genuine. There was a time where being part of your school was purpose enough, but now I am absorbing my time in your school back into my life.
You are still in a highly unusual situation and there is still much chance of advantage to your students from your teaching them by adherence to something higher than your many ‘I’s paraded around as the will of the gods. You had so much going for you, so many parts to the puzzle, but you manufactured the missing ones and perpetrated a series of frauds that have held you to ransom ever since.
Expedient actions that lack integrity are surely not the basis for psychological ‘work’ and your relentless focus on hypnotic self remembering is no substitute for self remembering in an atmosphere of open truth.
I truly feel for you, because you are as much a product of the expectations of you students as of your own tendencies. No wonder you need to do dirty deeds behind closed doors to cleanse yourself of their sheepish adoration. You never escaped the shadow of the circumstances of your childhood and you still have something to prove, even now as an old man. The allurement of the trip you were on seduced you and each different phase of identification was facilitated by your inner circle of the time. It is not so hard to see how this can happen; it has happened before and will happen again, all that is needed are the right circumstances. Surely this explanation is more probable than that you are a goddess trapped in a man’s body, are second only to Christ and do what you do to serve the conscious aspect of the ray of creation. Because you got away with fraud and half-baked ideas you just kept going. The fact that you were able to keep going even when you got found out gave you a reckless confidence which in turn allowed you to get away with even more nonsense.

166. More history needed? - October 29, 2008

You guys you rock…
What a blog,
keep going
Why not

And what did you guys think of the evil guru……???????

Bares resposting

Incroyable, increible, unbelievable, unglaublich, 怪談

Go to GF website. Find Ch-rl-s T wedsite and their is a sound track called Evil Guru.

Listen to this masterpiece and enjoy….the Evil Guru ballade/ song/ masterpiece.

Spread the word and music.

167. whalerider - October 29, 2008

Great posts, you guys!

The issue that seems lost on Daily Cardiac and those like him is that ex-members all had to play the “what if” game to join the FOF to begin with, eventually grew tired of it and left.

And even though DC claims to have “verified” the FOF’s indoctrination, I don’t believe DC has other people’s best interests at heart when he suggests others suspend their “ordinary” moral judgment to play the “what if” game and join, re-join, or remain in the FOF indefinitely. I smell a conflict of interest. He’s only selling insurance…peace of mind at your own expense.

Some of us choose not to play the “what if” game anymore and trust our own inner gurus instead of outsourcing them to a person with delusions of grandeur suffering from narcissistic personality disorder coupled with a sex addiction. We simply no longer give Burton the benefit of the doubt in light of his personal excesses, abusive disregard for his detractors, and sexual exploitation of his followers.

Personally, my moral compass steers me away from anyone claiming to be above “ordinary” morality…or am I just considered “collateral damage”?

And frankly, DC’s examples of people of a higher calling (“MLK, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Mother Teresa”) all share something that Burton lacks…they all fought against injustice in the world at great personal expense. Burton falls so far below that standard, that to imply that he is counted among them is revolting and speaks to DC’s spiritual and moral ignorance.

Any of you emotionally or mentally “perturbed” ex-members go out and kick an innocent dog out of rage lately? Where is this damning display of anger that DC is claims we blogging ex-members exhibit that makes us so unenlightened…is it through our confrontation of ironclad “verifications” (indoctrination) with mere written words?

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that indoctrination and critical thought are mutually exclusive.

No matter what form it takes, expressing feelings and writing about the injustice we ex-members have witnessed and continue to witness in the FOF is how we rise above it.

Silence only keeps evil flourishing.

Let’s drain the victim pool.

168. Ellen - October 29, 2008

I got up this morning wondering if DC would have posted a rebuttal. But, damn! You guys are too good! Great posts. I wonder how he will refute them? Surely someone, somewhere gave him enough of a toehold?

Daily Card, behind the anger and the outrage there is love. Love at least for what could have been, and for the people whose neurological mental synapse’s have become encrusted with years of repetitive nonsense billed as higher food. Let the crust crack.

Let’s drain the victim pool!

169. Daily Cardiac - October 29, 2008

Jomo Piñata – 153:

“Lacuna brother, I didn’t know you were an Aleister Crowley fan! “Ordinary morality is for ordinary people.” Did you know that was an Aleister Crowley quote?”

No, I did not; to tell the truth I’ve not read him. But you know what they say – “there’s nothing new under the sun.”

It’s happened to me more than once that when I was just about to say something sure enough someone else in the conversation will say the same exact comment. It would not surprise me to learn that thoughts travel, something like sound waves.

170. Ill Never Tell - October 29, 2008

‘sure he is different from Joe Blow’

I doubt that. He is as common as Joe BlowJob. Arkansas Bob is sure to be bobb’n’ for ‘apples’ on Hallowe’en; and so to begin Día de los Muertos (Day of the Dead). Perhaps it will be All Suckers’ Day ’round them parts.
Whip out yer suckers boys.

171. fofblogmoderator - October 29, 2008

161 is newly moderated

172. Crouching Tiger - October 29, 2008

Another aspect of this conversation, about how ‘spiritual life’ and ‘ordinary life’ can co-exist profitably, both internally and externally… is the subject of Wisdom.

Is wisdom a simple attribute of a higher man/woman as he/she connects with ordinary life, or – as I suspect DC might see it – just another expectation that has to be shed in the interests of maintaining presence?… The kind of wisdom in Solomon’s judgment, an inspired improvisation in the moment that somehow takes account of all the circumstances in a flash. Judgment that comes with the connectedness of centres, the kind we all have from time to time.

Does Robert Burton show good judgment in his guidance of students in ‘ordinary’ affairs? One of my friends, who was in the fellowship for many years and struggled hard to stay in, wrote RB a long letter asking for help/guidance. After all the years, effort and money she’d put in, you would suppose she at least deserved something in the way of a personal answer. What she received was two bits of advice : 1. Do the sequence more, and 2. See a therapist.

From what I can recall of previous stories on this Blog, the results of RB’s guidance have been as random as his sexual trysts – but I’m open to new information…

Sound and penetrating judgment is a function of connected centres, it would be good to see some examples of where RB has some, rather than acting in his own personal interest… And please, no more answers playing the game of alternative worlds, DC!

173. Across the River - October 29, 2008

Dear All,

I’m surprised to appreciate more than ever the voices here. The abundance of good posts lately seem to leave nothing unsaid! Thank you all for representing so well whatever that true thing is.

Thank you steve for fofmoderatoring so well.

144
But you, DC…..

Maybe rather than the particular tools used in the Fellowship to establish a concensus of “different rules for different realms”, it’s the entire precept of pursuing higher states in a vacuum that is rejected here. Most everyone addressing you has spent years in the Fellowship and fully understands that conditions are created that result in certain psychological experiences. In my opinion, Robert’s Fellowship really has little or nothing to do with spirituality.

What do you think of Scientology, for example? Again, not in detail of what tools are used to create the desired state-of-mind, but that reality is determined by design. There are many other examples, whether or not they use the term “esoteric school”.

174. Kid Shelleen - October 29, 2008

Shoveling Snow With Buddha

In the usual iconography of the temple or the local Wok
you would never see him doing such a thing,
tossing the dry snow over a mountain
of his bare, round shoulder,
his hair tied in a knot,
a model of concentration.

Sitting is more his speed, if that is the word
for what he does, or does not do.

Even the season is wrong for him.
In all his manifestations, is it not warm or slightly humid?
Is this not implied by his serene expression,
that smile so wide it wraps itself around the waist of the universe?

But here we are, working our way down the driveway,
one shovelful at a time.
We toss the light powder into the clear air.
We feel the cold mist on our faces.
And with every heave we disappear
and become lost to each other
in these sudden clouds of our own making,
these fountain-bursts of snow.

This is so much better than a sermon in church,
I say out loud, but Buddha keeps on shoveling.
This is the true religion, the religion of snow,
and sunlight and winter geese barking in the sky,
I say, but he is too busy to hear me.

He has thrown himself into shoveling snow
as if it were the purpose of existence,
as if the sign of a perfect life were a clear driveway
you could back the car down easily
and drive off into the vanities of the world
with a broken heater fan and a song on the radio.

All morning long we work side by side,
me with my commentary
and he inside his generous pocket of silence,
until the hour is nearly noon
and the snow is piled high all around us;
then, I hear him speak.

After this, he asks,
can we go inside and play cards?

Certainly, I reply, and I will heat some milk
and bring cups of hot chocolate to the table
while you shuffle the deck.
and our boots stand dripping by the door.

Aaah, says the Buddha, lifting his eyes
and leaning for a moment on his shovel
before he drives the thin blade again
deep into the glittering white snow.

Billy Collins

175. somebody - October 29, 2008

WS – “If a friend is cheated, conned, raped, had their innocence and hopes soiled and perverted, and their health broken – and no one will help or even recognize the anguish of the friend, then a sincere, loving person gets “perturbed”.

DC – Your response is a very reasonable one; and probably at the heart of 90% of all comments on this blog since its inception. It’s a reasonable reaction from ordinary mind; the state most human beings spend their lives in.

S – This answer shows that you don’t have a heart. I don’t think I want to talk to you really after that. What is your idea of extra-ordinary mind’s reaction then – to let your friend be raped and go your way? Do you even have friends? Are you sure?

***

DC – But it feels so good to be perturbed, so real, hence the illusion of its usefulness persists.

S – Are you sure it feels good? It does not feel good to me at all. If my friends is hurt and it hurts me to know that I can’t help him, you think it feels good? You are a strange man.

***

DC – On the other hand George Bush did allow himself to become perturbed on 9-11-01, and for good cause he supposed. And he acted out his perturbation on Iraq and we know how that went.

S – You are in imagination. You don’t have a slightest idea what was Bush’s true motivation. You are so naive!

***

DC – One correlation between the two worlds is the idea that what is good for us often is not what we want, and what is not good for us often is what we want. It’s easy to verify this on an earthly level. People regularly abuse their bodies through various forms of excesses, denials and misuses. Men, even in the face of probable death, will disregard medical or expert advice and consume substances or engage in activities that they know are harmful, even deadly, to them.

S – It is not that often that we want what is not good for us. Your examples do not prove that you have to have sex with a teacher to awaken.

***

DC – I would say the most common abuse of the spirit is neglect. There is an expression in athletics – no pain no gain. This also applies to spiritual matters. To advance spiritually one has to make real sacrifices, real choices, engage in real struggles. Many people don’t like to hear that let alone do that.

S – Where did you get this idea about real sacrifices and real choices? What is “not real choice” anyway? One sacrifice you should never have made – a sacrifice of your conscience.

***

DC – It is an enormous task to give up ordinary mind and its morality. On the other hand the reward is enormous.

S – Please give an example of extra-ordinary mind and it’s morality as you understand it. How do you know the difference between extra-ordinary mind and a mental illness such as narcissistic personality disorder?

***

DC – Robert’s homosexual lifestyle, his sexual liaisons with members, his preference for acquiring art objects, his seeming ignoring of people, etc. are all part of a “side show.” … They would leave no matter what Robert’s lifestyle was. An unwillingness or inability to absorb the new teachings rather than disapproval with Robert’s lifestyle

S – Do you understand the difference between “homosexual life style, his sexual liaisons with members” and sexual addiction, manipulation and coercion, using the power for having sex? What if Robert “lifestyle” as you put it was raping and killing little girls – would that matter to you? Maybe not.

***

DC – The same goes for the non-expression of negativity, the existence of a lower self, the monarchical nature of Influence C and many other principles and cornerstones of the FoF…. If Robert’s lifestyle caused someone to abandon the principles of the school then I would say that those principles were not deeply seated in that person anyway… Those who embrace the principles the school was founded on and continue embracing them through intervals, doubts, the many I’s, will remain because they are getting what they came for.

S – Are you sure that you understand the principals of the esoteric school? Existence of lower self? Monarchical nature of Influence C? Did you teacher told you the “true meaning” of some quotation? It was not in the Fourth Way books.

***

DC – I think ex members would be much more credible if their argument was something like: “I joined the FoF because I wanted to be more spiritually awake. The FoF claimed it had the tools to help me achieve that but in reality it did not, so I left.” This complaint would be much more believable because it would be taking the FoF in its own context.

S – Well, Hello! This is what you’ve been told over and over again. You are not listening!:

128. Crouching Tiger
“I began to feel that the highs were deliberately created to loosen you up for the concrete, monetary demands. So in a way my own Work and energy were being siphoned off and actually used against me!”

130. Ellen
“So additionally, Robert also counts on the “high” produced from sustained efforts to be present to override any cognitive dissonance.”

138 lauralupa
Excellent observations! “Divine Presence” the FOF way is just a great way of hypnotizing the sheep for the shearing.

176. Bares Reposting - October 29, 2008

Concerning morality (and other standards of living).:

What ever happened to the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton professed idea expressed as: The School will attain to the highest levels in life and go beyond them. Hmmm? Supercelestial thoughts; subterranean actions. [Why settle for a spiritual leader/teacher that couldn’t even make it as a fourth grade elementary school teacher?]

177. Jomo Piñata - October 29, 2008

>[Why settle for a spiritual leader/teacher that couldn’t even
>make it as a fourth grade elementary school teacher

According to primary sources, Burton was a popular and capable fourth grade teacher. Also according to primary sources, he was found crying alone in his classroom and stated that “he could not teach anymore.” At least one individual has quoted Burton as having stated to her that he was told he had to resign because he hugged the children too much.

Finally, according to primary sources, Burton’s resignation was accepted by the Lafayette School Board effective March 17, 1967.

That’s in the middle of spring, two months before the end of the school year. It suggests a certain urgency to get him out of there, doesn’t it?

178. nigel harris price - October 29, 2008

We’re back to arguing about REB’s credentials again, aren’t we? Surely, the point is that he is a manipulator of power through his position as a leader of a cult. HE WILL NOT STAND UP TO TESTING IN COURT!…..Nigel.

179. whalerider - October 30, 2008

dc:
“It’s happened to me more than once that when I was just about to say something sure enough someone else in the conversation will say the same exact comment.”

You remind me of when I took a vow of silence during my tenure at Renaissance. What you described started happening to me. Before I had even finished writing what I wanted to express in a conversation on the pad of paper I carried around, often someone else said the exact same comment first.

“…thoughts as sound waves”???

Hmmm…I see that now as a prime example of how indoctrinated we all were…we all thought and spoke the exact same way.

180. Vena - October 30, 2008

From Daily Cardiac:
” I would say the most common abuse of the spirit is neglect. There is an expression in athletics – no pain no gain. This also applies to spiritual matters. To advance spiritually one has to make real sacrifices, real choices, engage in real struggles. Many people don’t like to hear that let alone do that. ”

It seems to me that this is exactly what you are doing – abusing your spirit by neglecting and avoiding the truth about Robert and the Fellowship and constructing all sorts of arguments to try and justify very unspiritual behavior in your “school” and your teacher. A real sacrifice and a real struggle would be to face the contradictions that have been revealed on this blog without denial and and then to take appropriate action against the hypocrisy and corruption.

If you could only open your eyes and stop the desparate justifications you might still have a chance. Robert and the Fellowship most likely have a terrible karma, especially Robert. I actually feel very sorry for him. He may have one of the worst fates possible. The whole thing is a tragedy.

181. elena - October 30, 2008

A friend sent me these issues and I would like to share them here.

“Could it really be thinkable that some techniques of the FOF Forth Way
> (which is nor really esoteric neither a select committee for the explanation
> or the spiritual path)”damage” people in a way that they are looking on a
> mortally person beneath their feet not any longer able to hold this person
> and to act, to ask for a glass of water or simply to help.

They just don’t notice it anymore, they just don’t want to notice it.
If there is a universal law it is the universal law of
> love, of forgiveness but this “law” doesn’t imply that mankind should
> accept/endure abuse, rape, murder, drug abuse…
> It is our responsibility to ask why and to ask for an investigation.”

The way I saw it working was that the priorities that get implanted in cult people’s mind don’t allow them to conceive of other considerations. It is not that people are trying to omit something, they are actually trying to achieve something else. The sense that they are “working”, that they are “busy”, “usefull” gives them the sense of importance and participation that they are after if they become identified with the Fellowship’s agenda. They don’t conceive that they are doing anything wrong, on the contrary, they are desperately trying, making efforts to do something right and that is what they don’t want to let go of: Their own unnecessary suffering.

It’s the identification with the Fellowship itself that gives them a motivation to live and continue making efforts for it. Eventually the identification replaces everything else they had going for themselves. As has been mentioned before it is like an addiction, particularly the aspect of desperately looking for Robert Burton’s approval in any form or manner. A look, a gesture, anything he might do to recognize people under such spell is sought with a particular kind of energy that I’ve only noticed when people are around drugs. The drug or the figure that is idolized is sought with such intensity because there is little of it or because the idolized person tends to give very little of himself to anybody so when he does give anything that person feels that he/she have become priviledged and superior to others in the group. It is a very sick phenomenon.

It is relevant to note that people are not doing anything wrong consciously. It is not that they become inhuman because they want to become nasty or do horrible things to others, it is that they simply don’t perceive other people’s presence. Only the idolized person’s needs and desires are perceived in an invisible dimension. He does not have to ask, people shower him with what he wants. They think that they are “loving” him and because they love to love, they are not willing to give it up. The problem perhaps is that the members do naively meet every aspect of their commitment, it’s the cult that turns the triad around and makes it degenarate into systematic abuse. It is accurate to say that people are in a “spell” while they are inside which is why I do not judge those people as if they were sane. They are in a particular condition that brings out the best and the worst from them.

The Fellowship of Friends is a money making machine for Robert Burton’s agenda and it is extremely efficient at it. It is mind blowing to realize how hundreds of people have accepted the deal consciously or unconsciously or simply allowed themselves to get on the ride and pay for it. Too many for too long.

In a way it worked because we were each, in my opinion, confronting our selves with our own relationship with money, power, possesions, and giving up our will was something we were willing to do. The problem is that we did it blindly, that is, without thinking about what the Fellowship did with our willingness to give. We trusted that Robert was a conscious being and that what he did with the money or the effort was O.K. specially because we accepted the idea that if the world was coming to an end it was good to have someone who was more conscious than our selves decide what was to be done with the money. The idea that art was bought and that the money was used “nobly” helped endorse the act for many years. Personally it wasn’t until Dorothy’s situation hit me straight in the face that I saw clearly through the inhumanity of it all but it is to a certain extent, not surprising that people who do not have such standards about children and old people, would not consider that situation abnormal. There are probably hundreds who still think Dorothy should have gone to a home many years before and that would have been fine.

Then when you look at the fact that people don’t see or realize that the whole set up is put into place to make those men coming from anywhere feel that it is not only alright but desirable to have sex with Robert, things become even more delicate because the trafficking! is no longer done with helpless old people who did not receive any help from the Fellowship but the fact that thousands of dollars and hundreds of people are working to seduce these men into Robert’s jaws. This is what people are not willing to acknowledge about their participation in the Fellowship. They are unwilling to recognize themselves as pimps. In the holocaust people had to recognize themselves as murderers, including the jews who helped the Germans to keep themselves alive but in the Fellowship there are no excuses. It is not soldiers obeying orders or jews trying to survive one more day, it is regular human beings who have given themselves up for a narcissistic psociopath who dictates the beat that he must have men to sattisfy the demands of his high energy level. You would hear people saying that Robert did all that because his divine condition required it, that it freed him from the pressure of his “divine” energy.

When you put it all together is when the real picture surfaces and you can see the level of decadence that is at stake. If you top that with the fact that extremely decorated surroundings or what we called gold alchemy impressions and behaviour reinforce the conviction that it is all done for our own well being, legitimizing the institution, then you can see how dangerous it is, how the double practices tend to mix and confuse and deeply manipulate the individuals involved.

Most of this is already on the blog. There are hundreds of aspects that could be taken into account to understand how it works. I’ll leave it here for now so that I don’t burn you out. I sincerely thank you for your interest and hope this helps.

182. elena - October 30, 2008

Like everything else on this blog, if others would like to take or give something else on this topic, you’re most welcome to help.

183. Old Fish in the Sea - October 30, 2008

Consider the possibility that cognitive dissonance, that uncomfortable feeling which can motivate us to lie to ourselves and justify our position, can also cause us re-examine a situation until we work our way more towards the truth.

We feel uncomfortable with the contradictions of the Fellowship so we look back at it to try to better understand. Sometimes justifying our position, sometimes being open to new points of view.

Dissonance tells us that something does not quite fit. It drives us to look again and may be the precursor to conscience. It is that uneasy feeling that comes when we see another point of view that frowns on our past actions. It rightfully comes whenever we take a stand to help us evaluate our position.

Perhaps, what we think of as an evolved being is someone that has found buffers (work I’s) that are so perfect that no dissonance (e.g. no conscience) can upset the demeaner – hence the appearance of controlled calmness. We want that, so we try to learn the techniques.

When I feel uncomfortable, I find myself sometimes seeking divided attention. My mind says, the present is all that matters, and poof, my dissonance disappears. I am calm. I need not face my issue because I am convinced that only the present matters.

Some would say this is a good thing – the secret to happiness. Just focus on the impressions, be present and let the moment enter and transform you. All the rest is noise, world 48, the lower self.

I am sure that Robert has a lot of dissonance. If I were him, I think I would be uncomfortable. Perhaps this is why the sequence is designed to block out all thought and reflection. Perhaps this is why imagination is deemed to be so evil.

I do not wish to say that there is not a place for that quiet place within. There clearly is. But I think it is important to pay attention to our dissonance as well. It might be telling us something. It may be our real teacher, warning us that something is not right. If we think we have found work I’s capable of explaining away all self-doubt, all discomfort, then this point of view might be worth considering. Consider the possibility that dissonance is spiritual – our guide that asks us to look a little deeper. A spiritual teacher that charges nothing except for a little discomfort. Is it morality, is it feminine dominance, or is it our soul trying to connect our life to our values?

And if a point of view creates a lot of dissonance, for example, giving your self to someone that acts in conflict with your own values, then why the dissonance? What is your real spiritual teacher trying to say? Maybe it is worth listening to the dissonance instead of calling in the Army of work I’s to smooth it over.

184. unoanimo - October 30, 2008

One day a disciple and his new friend were walking together in the village; they stopped to look at something in the street fair for sale… As the friend was inspecting something, the disciple stepped back a bit and starred at his new friend, scratched his chin and said “Hey, wake up, you’re doing that ‘Cat & Mouse’ thing.”

The friend turned around and asked, ‘How do you know that I am asleep, that I was asleep?’ The disciple said, “Because I could see it on your face; I’ve been taught how to see sleep while being present and know the physiological differences in the facial muscles and eyes when someone’s asleep and when they’re awake.”

‘Is that so?’, said the friend, as he stepped closer to the disciple, who responded, “Well, how could it be otherwise; and if you’re defending your position, you’re still asleep, even deeper…”

And as the disciple was just about to say something else, the friend embraced him and said, ‘I was being you looking at me.’

185. dragon - October 30, 2008

If you are searching a spiritual teacher:

(from the ICSA site)

Important Issues to Consider When Choosing a Spiritual Teacher:

1. What credentials does this teacher possess that qualified him/her togive this instruction?

2. How does the teacher maintain his/her authority in the group or in relationships?
Does he/she claim to be the only teacher that gives this instruction?

3. Can you challenge the teacher’s instruction? Can you question his/her
advice? What happens if you disagree with the teacher?

4. Who does your teacher report to? If you were to complain about the
teacher, to whom would you go? Is there a system of checks and balances
within his/her line of authority?

5. Within this organization who makes the rules? Who can change the rules?
How often does this happen? What happens when someone breaks the rules?

6. What will you be expected to “give up” or “sacrifice” to study with this
teacher? Ask this question in advance and be as specific as possible.

7. Are students free to leave this teacher/group? What happens to those
who leave?

8. When do you graduate from this instruction?

9. How does the teacher talk about people who have left the group? Is
contact with them allowed, discouraged or forbidden?

10. What attitudes does the teacher have toward maintaining relationships
with friends, family, and others outside the group?

11. What is the teacher’s attitude toward people outside the group in
general? Are you encouraged to be tolerant and understanding, or
judgmental and elite?

12. Are secrets being kept from you? Are doors locked, access to
telephones limited, or is information restricted in any way?

13. Does this teacher insist that the world is coming to an end in the near
future? What proof does he/she have of this? Prophets and teachers have
been predicting this for centuries, and we’re still here. Does the teacher
use this prophecy to frighten or influence people?

14. Does this teacher repeatedly remind you to listen to your heart and not
your head? If so, why must you disconnect from rational thought to learn this teaching?

15. Does the group use “mind-altering” exercises; i.e.,
meditation/chanting/praying for long periods of time, sleep deprivation,
constant busyness, protein deprivation, the use of drugs? What scientific,
documented proof does this teacher have that these practices will enable
the student to reach higher states of consciousness?

16. Ask the teacher what his/her attitudes are about sex in the group. If
celibacy is strongly advised for the student, ask if the same standard
applies to the teacher. If the standards are different, ask why.

17. Who pays for the leader’s expenses and lifestyle? Is it dramatically
different from the students? Will your financial responsibility continue
to increase to maintain good standing? Is there an annual report for this
group? Every bonafide church, charity, and non-profit organization has
this information available for anyone who asks for it.

These questions are meant to provide areas of exploration. Many teachers will not respond directly to your inquiries. We encourage you to conduct your own research and scrutinize your teacher as closely as possible. Remember: avoidance of your questions should raise a red flag. A healthy spiritual community, church, or teacher will encourage questions about their group.

Attitudes of avoidance or secrecy may tell you something about what the future will be like in this group. Rosanne Henry, a former cult member, has been a cult educator for over 10 years. She works as a family therapist and cult educational consultant.

Sharon Colvin is a former cult member who has been in the counter-cult movement for 7 years. She was actively involved in the Cult Awareness Network and has been a facilitator in several workshops in Colorado.

186. dragon - October 30, 2008
187. Allan S - October 30, 2008

#177 JP

This really does provide us with the basis for the alternative history of Robert Burton and the Fellowship, doesn’t it? What a parallel! Hey, you fuck up as a school teacher because of you’re uncontrollable sexual desires, so create your own school with your own rules and you can fuck up as much as you like, as long as you can keep the act going.

By the way, I do trust the primary source to be a good source.

Allan.

188. dragon - October 30, 2008

On using the term “cult”

http://cultmediation.com/infoserv_articles/term_cult.htm

“There is a SUBTLE but SIGNIFICANT difference between PERSUATION and MANIPULATION as practiced by REAL CULTS, and that difference is INTEND. If you intend to manipulate, you are focused only on your own outcome and usually at someone else’s expense. Persuaders simply help people come to their own best conclusion while remembering that the person being persuaded always has choice. When cult brands are created choice always remains at the forefront of the process rather than being systematically destroyed as is the reality in destructive cults.”

from ICSA (international cultic studies association)

http://www.icsahome.com/default.asp

189. Vena - October 30, 2008

#183 Old Fish in the Sea:
Beautiful post. I hope D.C. can hear it.

190. veramente - October 30, 2008

186 Allan S
“Hey, you fuck up as a school teacher because of you’re uncontrollable sexual desires, so create your own school with your own rules and you can fuck up as much as you like, as long as you can keep the act going.”
—————————–
It’s quite horrible to think that this desire was one of the driving forces for Burton. But I wonder, since I joined the FOF much later who helped him with the ever changing form. In the late 80’s we were supposed to be looking like aristocrats of some kind. He was certainly not alone in promoting the various trends.

191. Vena - October 30, 2008

#185, Item #17;
Does the Fellowship have an annual report that is available to members? Has anyone ever asked?

192. Kid Shelleen - October 30, 2008

In the Moment

It was a day in June, all lawn and sky,
the kind that gives you no choice
but to unbutton your shirt
and sit outside in a rough wooden chair.

And if a glass of ice tea and a volume
of seventeenth-century poetry
with a dark blue cover are available,
then the picture can hardly be improved.

I remember a fly kept landing on my wrist,
and two black butterflies
with white and red wing-dots
bobbed around my head in the bright air.

I could feel the day offering itself to me,
and I wanted nothing more
than to be in the moment-but which moment?

Not that one, or that one, or that one,
or any of those that were scuttling by
seemed perfectly right for me.

Plus, I was too knotted up with questions
about the past and his tall, evasive sister, the future.
What churchyard held the bones of George Herbert?
Why did John Donne’s wife die so young?

And more pressingly,
what could we serve the vegetarian twins
who were coming to dinner that evening?
Who knew that they would bring their own grapes?

And why was the driver of that pickup
flying down the road toward the lone railroad track?

And so the priceless moments of the day
were squandered one by one-
or more likely a thousand at a time-
with quandary and pointless interrogation.

All I wanted was to be a pea of being
inside the green pod of time,
but that was not going to happen today,
I had to admit to myself

as I closed the book on the face
of Thomas Traherne and returned to the house
where I lit a flame under a pot
full of floating brown eggs,

and, while they cooked in their bubbles,
I stared into a small oval mirror near the sink
to see if that crazy glass
had anything special to tell me today.

Billy Collins

193. dragon - October 30, 2008

From ICSA:

“There is a subtle but significant difference between persuasion and manipulation as practiced by real cults, and that difference is intent.

If you intend to manipulate, you are focused only on your own outcome and usually at someone else’s expense.

Persuaders simply help people come to their own best conclusion while remembering that the person being persuaded always has choice.

When cult brands are created choice always remains at the forefront of the process rather than being systematically destroyed as is the reality in destructive cults.”

194. Jomo Piñata - October 30, 2008

189/Vena
I am almost completely sure there is no annual report available for member consumption; but were such a report to exist, what difference would it make? Propaganda is propaganda is propaganda.

195. lake webegone - October 30, 2008

re: JomoPinata 177 and others

I am not a Burton apologist. However, I think it’s important to keep in mind that RB was teaching in the 60’s, in a conservative area of California (Walnut Creek, right?), and the tolerance level of anything out of the ordinary, especially homosexuality, was in those days about zero. It is entirely possible that he was doing just fine as a teacher, and someone heard something about his off-duty activities, which in those days i suspect were still rather ordinary by current standards. In other words, its entirely probable that he was in fact discriminated against. Even the indication that he was gay would be enough to get him tossed out pronto, at that time. I don’t know – I wasn’t there, but we need to taken into consideration the climate at that time – way different than now.
And, just as it’s not easy being green, it sure as hell wasn’t easy being gay. Now it’s big business, but then – whole entirely different story.

196. somebody - October 30, 2008

THE CALL OF THE LOON
Apollo, October 22, 2008

To begin with we would like to show a picture of Clare Bowen, who just completed her task at the age of eighty-one. Clare was in the school for thirty-six years, and she was the sixth oldest student. She was a constant love for thirty-six years. She received what she came for. You can measure time by such a shock. I remember meeting Clare for the first time at the old MacDonald farmhouse in Vacaville.

“What allowed us to understand the system in its esoteric form was not trying to change it.” Once we have the message, we do not try to superimpose our subjective understanding on it. We try to stay as close as we can to the system and not be innovative. Mohammed said, “Blessed is he whom innovation does not seduce.” We want to stay with the sequence and not introduce any innovation.

“Normally one would expect evolution to start from the bottom up – that is, that one hears about the sequence and the lower self, and begins to produce presence. In our school, we began from the top down. We knew presence was the answer, and now we use work ‘I’s to strengthen this state.” This was Asaf’s observation. We now have much more precision. The sequence gives us a precision way to induce presence.

“We must not measure health by the condition of the physical body; there can be no health without presence.” John Graham reveals the truth of this. His physical body has no health at all, but his astral body has never been better. His level of work has never been this high. He eats impressions now. His hands are incredibly long and slender, like those shown in Egyptian images. One would think they were exaggerated, until you see John’s fingers.

“Do not waste suffering: it is a doorway to another room, a strange and beautiful flower as yet unopened.” [Robert Taylor, Apollo] An exotic flower. A tibetan tangka depicts a young woman, showing four fingers, and looking out from behind double doors. The mighty double doors represent short Be and long BE, and this is what we want to find there – essence in the state of presence. The nine of hearts is controlling the passions, represented by the dots on her robe. She is showing her left side – the essence side. This is “as you like it” – the state we are in.

“One of the main tricks of the lower self is that it can appear to be present. One way to detect this is that it has no warmth associated with it.” I said a couple of weeks ago that we must wait and see the extent of the chaos in the stock market. There is a possibility that it will end up in hydrogen warfare. In fact, I think several financial analysts have said that it may spin out of control. On Wednesday we were having dinner before the ballet in Oakland, and we saw this man wearing a t-shirt saying “Nagasaki” – the city where the atomic bomb was dropped. He was in the corner of the room – he was “cornered”.

“Whatever I envisioned as a young teacher was far surpassed when we received the sequence.” It is quite interesting. When we began working with the sequence, I said I did not know that it would go this far. It has surpass anything I ever envisioned. Here are Asaf and I in Florence. We are the young man and the old man. It is a nice picture of Asaf. I was at my previous weight. I am showing four fingers.

“I have no regrets about anything that we had to release in order to get to where we are.” Even our dear friends whom Influence C have released. When people leave Influence C, I lose interest in them. There is no time for it. I just do not think about them. Without that sacrifice we would not have this state so firmly established. Here I am signing one of the books on Ming furniture. Our collection of Ming furniture is one of the things I would definitely retrieve if I were allowed to.

“The lower self thinks one is not worthy, whereas it is presence that is worthy of our efforts.” [Robert MacIsaac, Apollo] We have been worthy to receive Influence C’s efforts to produce presence.

“What one says in encouragement to a friend today, one may need to hear oneself tomorrow.” [Sarah Evarts, Apollo] Is it not a wonderful angle? If one gives a photograph, it is quite a challenge to back it up and be the words oneself.

“It is often the wordless presence, not the words of others, which inspire us.” [Jo Anna Mortensen, Apollo] It is often not your words, but your being that inspires them. Whitman said, “We convince by our presence.”

“One has transformed suffering if, like a successful sequence, it leads to presence.” [Benjamin Yudin, New, York] A painting by an unknown Flemish artist depicts Christ carrying the cross. The artist has outrageously given Christ six toes to show that the steward has completed his sequence. He is looking directly at the third eye, supporting the four wordless breaths. He is paying attention to presence.

“The sequence has the power to overcome the second state, the ‘black hole’ of the lower self.” [Dionisio Borges, Valencia] Is it not a lovely angle? The sequence has the power to overcome the lower self – the second state. In fact, the purpose of the lower self is to produce its opposed. It is mean-spirited and self-serving, while the state we are in produced a gentle and serene flow of conscious light.

“Higher centers see the hand of Influence C in all things and focus on possibilities, using positive emotions.” [Rowena Taylor, Apollo] The sequence is manna from heaven, given to us from above. It is not my idea; no one could come up with such a good idea. It comes from heaven.

197. dragon - October 30, 2008

CAMILLE: Gospel with no Lord

198. lake webegone - October 30, 2008

DC 144:
Not your best post, by far…

“On the other hand George Bush did allow himself to become perturbed on 9-11-01, and for good cause he supposed. And he acted out his perturbation on Iraq and we know how that went.”

How do you KNOW? where you there – were you in the ‘situation room’? Isn’t this an example of lying?

“Someone (the person who uses that blog name) recently pointed out, quite accurately I feel, that most of the recent departures by long time students have more to do with an unwillingness or inability to absorb the new teachings rather than disapproval with Robert’s lifestyle. Interestingly, some of them have been able to admit this fact. ”

…..and, your point would be?

“So for me it’s no surprise that people who refuse to admit the existence of different levels of reality/consciousness and their attending demands would one day leave the FoF.”

What’s with this “refuse to admit” stuff? Why are you using that phrase? I don’t think anyone who was IN the fof ever “refused to admit” that there were different levels of conscience. Is your real point that the weaklings who can’t handle the rigors of attaining higher states are clearly going to quit at some point, and will use anything else as an excuse? This is your rationale for staying – you wouldn’t want to be called a weakling, now would you?

I presume you would gladly purchase an overpriced bumper sticker that said “Robert said it, so I believe it” and another one “My school – love it or leave it”. And, How do I know I’m right now, and I was wrong then? It’s called conscience. And, I don’t want to play that game anymore.

199. ton - October 30, 2008

DC writes:
“….the vast majority of comments by ex members emanate from ordinary morality. They all make sense from ordinary mind and make sense to ordinary mind, but they do not correspond to the reality of one who has fully committed to a spiritual life, a life in which they have sacrificed many common moral values in exchange for a spiritual “morality”, one that puts the spirit first. The spiritual life demands that the follower discount ordinary morality and put a premium on the laws and conditions of a higher existence.”

Although uno put it succinctly in writing the question — “What am I neglecting by knowing it all?” — I will go ahead and elaborate a bit further on one of your ‘blind-spots.’ First off I would like to point out the arrogance you’ve shown time and again here on the blog, which is demonstrated -again- by your statements as quoted above. The ‘blind-spot’ I refer to is a ‘split’ in your thinking, it is a polarized ‘consciousness’– this is something you don’t see and it keeps you from your own personal realization (making real) and experience of ‘wholeness’ (notice the ‘coincidence’ — ‘wholeness’ and ‘holy’ are directly related). The polarity in your thinking, the ‘split’ in your consciousness is the blind-spot that you can’t see and at the same time, this ‘split’ keeps you from seeing, the ‘split’ conditions your way of perceiving. This ‘split’ in consciousness manifests throughout the mentality you’ve displayed here on the blog, for example, ‘us’ against ‘them’ is a prominent theme and feature of your thinking. The quote above is taken from your own writings on the blog and it is another illustration of the blind-spot I refer to. It seems to pit the ‘spiritual’ against the opposite of ‘spiritual’ (whatever that is?!). This dubious ‘distinction’ you make is a matter of perception… and it reminded me of something from one of my teachers, William Blake — you may have heard of him, if not, check it out:

“He who sees the Infinite in all things, sees God…. For everything that lives is holy….”

200. Jomo Piñata - October 30, 2008

‘ton (referring to my brother, Lacuna Piñata, and his pronouncements on “ordinary morality” and the need to discount it):

the arrogance you’ve shown time and again here on the blog

See, ‘ton, that’s just it. Lacuna isn’t naturally arrogant. He was just too weak emotionally to stand up to mom and dad. Trying to go his own way hurt too much so he had to find a special costume to wear that he imagined gave him extra strength. A spiderman costume or high tech kevlar or nanofiber thing. Other people are wearing “ordinary morality” costumes but he’s got nanofiber, it protects him. He bought into that commercial telling him it “lifts and separates” — lifts up his idea of himself and separates him from the pain of having to be a different person than mom and dad hoped or expected, following his own lights, not theirs.

It worked for awhile but Lacuna never took it off. And now look at him. He’s middle-aged, still wearing a kid’s halloween costume. Lacuna, brother, you look silly! And too proud to admit it! Go get ’em, man!

201. whalerider - October 30, 2008

Burton:
“Even our dear friends whom Influence C have released. When people leave Influence C, I lose interest in them. There is no time for it. I just do not think about them.”

Incredibly, in the same paragraph Burton reveals:

“Our collection of Ming furniture is one of the things I would definitely retrieve if I were allowed to.”

To Burton, “things” are more important than people.

The only “thing” that has been released his Burton’s humanity.

Would Gandhi, MLK, Nelson Mandela or Mother Teresa have ever valued “things” more than people?

“The artist has outrageously given Christ six toes to show that the steward has completed his sequence.”

Outrageous indeed!

“The sequence is manna from heaven, given to us from above. It is not my idea; no one could come up with such a good idea. It comes from heaven.”

Idea? Interesting word choice. The “idea” to use 30 canine commands to promote critical thought blocking came from heaven? What a novel idea!

202. Crouching Tiger - October 30, 2008

196.

‘“Normally one would expect evolution to start from the bottom up – that is, that one hears about the sequence and the lower self, and begins to produce presence. In our school, we began from the top down. We knew presence was the answer, and now we use work ‘I’s to strengthen this state.” This was Asaf’s observation.’

There can be no more eloquent statement of the school’s true position than this, although the speaker was obviously unaware of the irony in his words. Bearing in mind the course of the discussion in the past week or so, it is also goes right to the heart of the matter…

Where most of the remainder of the speech is about how the ‘system’ need not be changed, here Asaf talks about the fellowship’s own peculiar novelty, the ‘beginning [of evolution] from the top downwards’. And here is Robert Burton’s ‘divine shortcut’. That one can start with the desire for presence, supported by helpful thoughts.

In more traditional 4th Way practice, this is exactly what is not possible. You begins where you are standing, at the bottom of things. Where you are standing may or may not be pleasant, but nonetheless it is the truth when unaccompanied by vanity. It may take a while for this ‘bottom’ to sort itself out, to learn the language of ‘the bottom’ (no joke intended) so that it may become more receptive to something above it. But we have to get our hands dirty, like it or not. We all have to take a look around at this landscape with some sincerity.

It seems to me that this is the step that Robert Burton could not quite bring himself to make. It was much easier to start from being a man 5, without any apparent effort. And to have all his students begin at man 4, just by arriving on the school’s doorstep. How neat. How tidy. How untrue.

The thing that is crying out to be addressed, that needs addressing more than ever, is lying there ‘at the bottom’. But I guess it’s easier to operate the ‘divine shortcut’, to revolve in your own higher thoughts after all and swim in a dream of presence that is never more than half-true, than to go down and face the ‘twisted root’ – one thing in your being that needs to be faced, and untangled.

203. lauralupa - October 30, 2008

ton
“He who sees the Infinite in all things, sees God…. For everything that lives is holy….”

from the west to the east, the same message against spiritual blindness

The Self

O Master,
Tell me how to find
Detachment, wisdom, and freedom!
Child,
If you wish to be free,
Shun the poison of the senses.

Seek the nectar of truth,
Of love and forgiveness,
Simplicity and happiness.

Earth, fire and water,
The wind and the sky –
You are none of these.

If you wish to be free,
Know you are the Self,
The witness of all these,
The heart of awareness.

Set your body aside.
Sit in your own awareness.

You will at once be happy,
Forever still,
Forever free.

You have no caste.
No duties bind you.

Formless and free,
Beyond the reach of the senses,
The witness of all things.

So be happy!

Right or wrong,
Joy and sorrow,
These are of the mind only.
They are not yours.

It is not really you
Who acts or enjoys.

You are everywhere,
Forever free.

Forever and truly free,
The single witness of all things.

But if you see yourself as separate,
Then you are bound.

“I do this. I do that.”

The big black snake of selfishness
Has bitten you!

“I do nothing.”
This is the nectar of faith,
So drink and be happy!

Know you are one,
Pure awareness.

With the fire of this conviction,
Burn down the forest of ignorance.

Free yourself from sorrow,
And be happy.

Be happy!
For you are joy, unbounded joy.

You are awareness itself.

Just as a coil of rope
Is mistaken for a snake,
So you are mistaken for the world.

If you think you are free,
You are free.

If you think you are bound,
You are bound.

For the saying is true:
You are what you think.

The Self looks like the world.

But this is just an illusion.

The Self is everywhere.

One.
Still.
Free.
Perfect.

The witness of all things,
Awareness
Without action, clinging or desire.

Meditate on the Self.
One without two,
Exalted awareness.

Give up the illusion
Of the separate self.

Give up the feeling,
Within or without,
That you are this or that.

My child,
Because you think you are the body,
For a long time you have been bound.

Know you are pure awareness.

With this knowledge as your sword
Cut through your chains.

And be happy!

For you are already free,
Without action or flaw,
Luminous and bright.

You are bound
Only by the habit of meditation.

Your nature is pure awareness.

You are flowing in all things,
And all things are flowing in you.

But beware
The narrowness of the mind!

You are always the same,
Unfathomable awareness,
Limitless and free,
Serene and unperturbed.

Desire only your own awareness.

Whatever takes form is false.
Only the formless endures.

When you understand
The truth of this teaching,
You will not be born again.

For God is infinite,
Within the body and without,
Like a mirror,
And the image in a mirror.

As the air is everywhere,
Flowing around a pot
And filling it,
So God is everywhere,
Filling all things
And flowing through them forever.

The Ashtavakra Gita

204. Across the River - October 30, 2008

193 somebody

“Is is not a lovely bedtime story? Sleep well, my dears.”

***********
197 whalerider

‘canine commands’
priceless.

***********
198 Crouching Tiger

Irony abounds. Much appreciation of your recent posts which IMO have shown much generosity.

205. Crouching Tiger - October 30, 2008

199 Lauralupa

Wonderful! Thank you.

206. Across the River - October 30, 2008

“Is it not a lovely bedtime story? Sleep well my dears. And you, dear, yes you!, please come with me.”

207. whalerider - October 30, 2008

“Higher centers see the hand of Influence C in all things and focus on possibilities, using positive emotions.” [Rowena Taylor, Apollo]

Rowena, call It whatever you like, you see what you have been indoctrinated to see…the FOF’s narrow and exclusive brand of God called, c-influence, and your positive emotions have been subtly hijacked into focusing on the possibilities of manipulating and indoctrinating other victims into the rape factory known as the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. Fly from evil or may Allah have pity on your soul.

“The sequence has the power to overcome the second state, the ‘black hole’ of the lower self.” [Dionisio Borges, Valencia]

Dionisio, thank goodness your lower self has a ‘black hole’ otherwise you’d be pretty constipated. The 30 canine commands, when repeated incessantly by the lower self (where the memory of the words are stored), has the power to overcome your conscience and critical thought, both hallmarks of your higher self.

Here’s an example. “If the gloves don’t fit, then you must acquit” repeated many, many times by Attorney Johnny Cochran during the OJ trial worked the in same manner. Watch this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VssuCNMjgBg&feature=related

This was a brilliant display of courtroom theatrics by OJ and his dream team. What the jury chose to ignore is that OJ had to wear a pair of “micro gloves” underneath the leather ones first, which were likely to bunch up when he put the other ones on, making the sheer fitting leather gloves look like they don’t fit. Duh!

Then Mr. Cochran hammered the brain-dead jury with the now famous mantra, “if the gloves don’t fit, then you must acquit” over and over again The rest is history. Think about the possibilities!

May Allah show you the light with the sword of truth by cutting away the dark veil of your ignorance.

“One has transformed suffering if, like a successful sequence, it leads to presence.” [Benjamin Yudin, New, York]

Benjamin, why not skip the 30 canine commands and just be present? May Allah give you the strength to liberate yourself from your own self-imposed, useless suffering and spiritual bondage.

“It is often the wordless presence, not the words of others, which inspire us.” [Jo Anna Mortensen, Apollo]

Jo Anna, yes, listen to your own conscience, that quiet voice within, not the words of others; you will be inspired to take your fate into your own hands and fly from evil as I did, silently, without fanfare. May Allah set you on the difficult path to back to yourself.

“What one says in encouragement to a friend today, one may need to hear oneself tomorrow.” [Sarah Evarts, Apollo]

Sarah, hear what all your friends say in encouragement, even the ex-cult members who are still your friends, even though your cult leader instructs you to shun them just as he does due to his own spiritual sickness. May Allah bless you with many close friends who love you enough to speak their truth, not matter how startling.

“The lower self thinks one is not worthy, whereas it is presence that is worthy of our efforts.” [Robert MacIsaac, Apollo]

Robert, you do not need cult membership to be present; you can make those efforts on your own if that is your aim. May Allah grant you freedom from the slavery of your own mind.

“Do not waste suffering: it is a doorway to another room, a strange and beautiful flower as yet unopened.” [Robert Taylor, Apollo]

Robert, do not waste your talents supporting a narcissistic sex maniac…the “other room” is Burton’s bedroom where his young male followers suffer the loss of their dignity and conscience. The “strange and beautiful flower as yet unopened” is Burton’s next sexual conquest whom you have pimped for him through your recruiting efforts.

Know yourself! I pray one day you wake up to how deeply you have been indoctrinated into the cult of a sex predator. The truly righteous speak for the outcast victims of the world who have been silenced by shame. Join us! May the Hand of Allah open your chest and seize your heart before time silences your voice forever.

208. Jomo Piñata - October 30, 2008

Dude, you *so* rock!

209. simeon - October 30, 2008

Letting go

Two monks were returning to the monastery in the evening. It had rained and there were puddles of water on the road sides. At one place a beautiful young woman was standing unable to walk across because of a puddle of water. The elder of the two monks went up to a her lifted her in his alms and left her on the other side of the road, and continued his way to the monastery.
In the evening the younger monk came to the elder monk and said, “Sir, as monks, we cannot touch a woman ?”
The elder monk answered “yes, brother”.
Then the younger monk asks again, ” but then Sir, how is that you lifted that woman on the roadside ?”
The elder monk smiled at him and told him ” I left her on the other side of the road, but you are still carrying her ”
and that even after more than 20 years ???

210. elena - October 30, 2008

Somebody: “To begin with we would like to show a picture of Clare Bowen, who just completed her task at the age of eighty-one. Clare was in the school for thirty-six years, and she was the sixth oldest student. She was a constant love for thirty-six years. She received what she came for. You can measure time by such a shock. I remember meeting Clare for the first time at the old MacDonald farmhouse in Vacaville.”

Claire Bowen, one of the most charming and naive people in the Fellowship was, like Gloria Camb. to not assist to his events when she got old enough to enjoy them and not care about keeping the impossible control agenda and tension Robert likes to maintain: “I and only I can speak, you and all of you can only listen, if you dare change this order you can take a leave of absence or a leave for good, I don’t care, ha,ha,ha, I never cared and you all thought I was just not identified, ha, ha, ha you idiots, mentally retarded fools, you deserve everything that has happened to you for being so ridiculously naive, ha, ha, ha!” Love Robert.

Gloria ate with pleasure and told Robert how good the cakes were and was asked to not attend any more events immediately after. I was with her in that tea and she told me this shortly after we left.

May you rest in peace Claire. I thank you.

211. elena - October 30, 2008

P.D. …..most naive people in the Fellowship was, like Gloria asked by Robert to not assist to his events….
So sorry.

I received an interesting document called:

Final Report of the Enquete Comission on so called “Sects and Psychogroups” in the Federal Republic of Germany. It is over four hundred pages but if anyone might find it of interest I can forward it to you in Acrobat form.

212. elena - October 30, 2008

P.D.
These seventy year old women or so, were never asked by Robert, they were ordered by him to no longer come to his events. Gloria was told that she ate with too much greed.

This poor people still working themselves out in the FOF, what makes them think that their luck will be any different? Maybe that Robert will die sooner than themselves and that they’ll work out a way to put Rowena or Robert T. Sarah, Robert McI and the rest as the new teachers while the rest of congregation continues to support them blindly?

What is amazing about these candidates is that many have come to a point that they can barely stand their own selves they are so dramatically convinced that they are unique, too good for any one’s presence. At least that was the kind of message that was so often given in meetings in the few occassions that they were allowed to speak.

213. Yesri Baba - October 31, 2008

“I have no regrets about anything that we had to release in order to get to where we are.” Even our dear friends whom Influence C have released. When people leave Influence C, I lose interest in them. There is no time for it. I just do not think about them. Without that sacrifice we would not have this state so firmly established. Here I am signing one of the books on Ming furniture. Our collection of Ming furniture is one of the things I would definitely retrieve if I were allowed to.”

* Oh, I guess I do have one regret, I sure do miss that Ming furniture.

Love Robert

214. fofblogmoderator - October 31, 2008

193,195,197 & 198 are newly moderated

215. rock that boat - October 31, 2008

Somebody

Thank you very much for the Loon postings.
Good to know things are still as mad as ever.

I feel the current US crisis will be used by RB
to instill fear in the current members.
(bit like Bush does with his war on terror)

Nagasaki….I bet he made that one up!
.. or it is most likely the name of a great Sushi roll

216. wondering - October 31, 2008

Yes, thank you Somebody for posting burton’s insane ramblings. Unfortunately, you seemed to have missed a few of the “gems” from the last meeting. Here’s one of them:

“As we minimize gesticulation with our hands, the gesturing on our ‘face mask’ becomes more apparent.” [R*chel N*ble, Apollo]

Here we see a wonderful Japanese Noh mask, representing the nine of hearts. It is a minimal message. She has six white teeth and two square eyes. Similarly, in Leonardo’s Self-Portrait, his right eye is in the shape of a square. There are two strands of hair on either side of her forehead, controlling the four wordless breaths, and three strands of hair on either side of her temples, representing the Amduat. The part running down the middle of her hair represents the control of the passions. She is smiling because she has “gotten the victory.” Her egg-shaped head is similar to that of the Olmec figure with a hidden hand. We want our eggs “sunny-side up.”

Comments are allowed here, but they weren’t allowed at that meeting. People pay 100.00 to hear this crap??

217. Just the Facts Ma'am - October 31, 2008

‘Clare B., who just completed her task at the age of eighty-one. Clare was in the school for thirty-six years, and she was the sixth oldest student. She was a constant love for thirty-six years. She received what she came for. You can measure time by such a shock. . .’

Yes, Clare B., a shy and diminutive lady with a big soul, spent about 1/2 of her life in FoF and showed her ‘constant love’ by, unbegrudgingly, doing the personal laundry of the teacher – washing and ironing his shirts and underwear, amongst other things. I guess, ‘She received what she came for.’ God bless her soul and may her soul rest in peace.

218. veramente - October 31, 2008

216 wondering

Please you or somebody give me a definition of intelligence.
No one in their right mind would believe this stuff and yet it seems to continue fascinate the FOF members. If it wasn’t so sad I would be laughing.

219. unoanimo - October 31, 2008

Not Here (by Rumi)

There’s courage involved if you want
to become truth. There is a broken-

open place in a lover. Where are
those qualities of bravery and sharp

compassion in this group? What’s the
use of old and frozen thought? I want

a howling hurt. This is not a treasury
where gold is stored; this is for copper.

We alchemists look for talent that
can heat up and change. Lukewarm

won’t do. Halfhearted holding back,
well-enough getting by? Not here.

_____

On Resurrection Day (Rumi)

On Resurrection Day your body testifies against you.
Your hand says, “I stole money.”
Your lips, “I said meanness.”
Your feet, “I went where I shouldn’t.”
Your genitals, “Me too.”

They will make your praying sound hypocritical.
Let the bodies doings speak openly now,
without your saying a word,
as a student’s walking behind a teacher
says, “This one knows more clearly than I the way.”

—-

—-

Restless, sleepless Love… Keep nodding off so that
I can keep it and stillest be, knowing you’re actually
saying ‘Yes’ with all your Atlas is bearing.

L.t.y.a.

220. dragon - October 31, 2008

218. veramente

Thank you for your sensitive question!

Definition of the term “Intelligence”?:

Alfred Binet (July 8, 1857- October 18, 1911)
French Psychologist and his Definition of Intelligence (he is the “grandfather” of the IQ test), his quote:

“It seems to us that in intelligence there is a fundamental faculty, the alteration or the lack of which, is of the utmost importance for practical life. This faculty is judgment, otherwise called good sense, practical sense, initiative, the faculty of adapting one’s self to circumstances. A person may be a moron or an imbecile if he is lacking in judgment; but with good judgment he can never be either. Indeed the rest of the intellectual faculties seem of little importance in comparison with judgment” (Binet & Simon, 1916, 1973, pp.42-43).

“Intelligence” (emotional, creative, business, mathematical, artifical….) that’s a loose concept. You will not be able to define it exactly. Only the indicators of intelligence are perceptible.

Yet no universally accepted definition of intelligence exists, and people continue to debate what, exactly, it is.

Please read more about the Milwaukee project and the history of the “IQ”:

“Intelligence” is also “plastic”, it depends on the circumstances (childhood/family/living conditions/work conditions/colleagues etc.) We all are responsible for the “intelligence” of our fellow men/women:

http://www.audiblox.com/iq_scores.htm

The whole blog/FOF/world fellow men/women are intelligent!

The magic circus, please enjoy (and see just as you like it):

veramente you are right, it is sad! It would be better we could be able to make a joke:

The judge: Robert E. B., alias the hypnotist, I sentence you to three months in Barbados, all expenses paid!

221. Jomo Piñata - October 31, 2008

simeon/209

Now and then people pop up to tell this tired old spiritual morality tale which, if you read it carefully, is really a “dis.” The master disses the disciple. The disciple should have said, if that’s your attitude, fuck you, go find someone else to shear.

Don’t put down stuff until you’re damn good and ready to put it down because you’ve carried it long enough. Even if somebody disses you for carrying it. Even if you’ve been carrying it for 40 years.

222. Kid Shelleen - October 31, 2008

Say it, Jomo.

It might be interesting to see if one has a choice in what to carry and for how long, no?

223. Mick Danger - October 31, 2008

“Sun Pie looked towards the door, then back at me.
‘You a praying man?’ he said.
‘Uh-huh.’
‘Good, gonna have to be when the Chinese take over.’
He had an unusual way of talking … slow but with slam bang action words. He put his tool down and smiled, got soft voiced and told me a little bit about himself. He wasn’t distant or guarded. Said he’d been in jail once for cutting a man, that it got him into big trouble, but that the man had it coming. Said that I should turn in all my diamonds, emeralds and rubies and exchange everthing for jade, because that will be the new currency when the Chinese get here with their fish and their meat. ‘People think I’m crazy, but I don’t mind. The Chinese are solid – they don’t use vulgar language. The Chinese nightingale will sing the land. They don’t have any ten commandments, either, don’t need ’em. All the way from here to Peru, Chinese. You a prayin’ man, huh? What do you pray for? You pray for the world?’ I never thought about praying for the world. I said, ‘I pray that I can be a kinder person.'”
Exerpt from “Chronicles” by Bob Dylan

224. veramente - October 31, 2008

183 Old Fish in the Sea

“And if a point of view creates a lot of dissonance, for example, giving your self to someone that acts in conflict with your own values, then why the dissonance? What is your real spiritual teacher trying to say? Maybe it is worth listening to the dissonance instead of calling in the Army of work I’s to smooth it over.”

————-
I too wanted to aknowledge your great post. I hope some current members will read it.

I do not know if RB feels anything anymore though, there was always a quality of hurry in his speech when he was saying the most absurd things, almost like wanting to seal his “truth” often with the final: “you see?”
I saw nothing, but I wished to see, until I thought I saw something, and that something that came from nothing….

225. fofblogmoderator - October 31, 2008

219 & 220 are newly moderated

226. simeon - October 31, 2008

Ohhh, you think you are always gentle, yet look at how viciously the world strikes at you nonetheless! This idea of your victimization is merely cynicism turned inside out and made more impenetrable to insight. You are clever enough to disguise your addiction to gloom in protests of innocence. The good news is that you may never be effectively challenged by others about this routine; few friends have enough wisdom and chutzpah at the same time. The bad news is that you will probably never walk your way to forgiveness in sensible steps. You will have to leap your own well-built defenses, disowning your morbid vanity in mid-flight.

227. elena - October 31, 2008

This burning was so necessary but do we know what actually died or survived?
All I know is that now you and I are one, no matter where you are.

Love
all
under
reasoned
arrangement

You’re here and there and no matter where. There is no falling in love but a unity in the heart in which you are present as if we were one and it is similar with…

Be
ready
under
caring
elections!

or

Best
roses
unite
candid
enemies

or

Bitter
readings
unfold
closer
enigmas

It’s strange to come this close without having really met, isn’t it? or rather, having discarded the need for bodies so the meeting rests without them and stays closer to the soul.

And of course, these are just word games to fly a little beyond the draining subject of the decadent Fellowship with which we too are tempted to descend. Words thrown out into the wind without the expectation to ever recover them and at the same time knowing there is nothing to lose now that we are in fact, already together at least in side.

Ah little Claire
with your candid smile
and lost loving eyes

What road did you take
to forget
before you died?

Ah little Claire,
you look brighter
with the darkness behind.

228. elena - October 31, 2008

Simeon,

What you’re asking is not for forgiveness but for condonement, you sick puppy.

No forgiveness and no forgetfulness even if I sing, love and live in between.

When you make it stop, you’ll rest, but not before.

229. lauralupa - October 31, 2008

For well you know that its a fool who plays it cool
By making his world a little colder.

From the growl of the goon, worth repeating once again:

“I have no regrets about anything that we had to release in order to get to where we are.” Even our dear friends whom Influence C have released. When people leave Influence C, I lose interest in them. There is no time for it. I just do not think about them. Without that sacrifice we would not have this state so firmly established. Here I am signing one of the books on Ming furniture. Our collection of Ming furniture is one of the things I would definitely retrieve if I were allowed to.

This way of thinking (?) is utterly cold, ugly and mean…
Hey dear friends, we have lost interest in you. You have been sacrifed so that the remaining elite can have their higher states better established!

As the Divine Teacher says:

“One of the main tricks of the lower self is that it can appear to be present. One way to detect this is that it has no warmth associated with it.”

Even a broken clock gets to be right twice a day.

230. lauralupa - October 31, 2008

“you have been sacrificed”

ola Elena querida, una cancion por ti…

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gz5RycWeNQI&feature=related

231. Kid Shelleen - October 31, 2008

“…at the old MacDonald farmhouse in Vacaville.”

EIEIO

Sorry, my lower self is…well…lower.

“Our collection of Ming furniture is one of the things I would definitely retrieve if I were allowed to.”

Well, who’s stopping you?

232. ton - October 31, 2008

Simeon, around 226 you write:
“….The good news is that you may never be effectively challenged by others about this routine; few friends have enough wisdom and chutzpah at the same time. The bad news is that you will probably never walk your way to forgiveness in sensible steps….”

As for your “good news”–
I don’t know about your ‘friends’ but I can speak from my own experience of friendships: they come in many forms but imo a real friend DOES have both the wisdom and ‘chutzpah’ to challenge me (at least those I consider to by my own true friends do– you are right in the sense that that there may be relatively few people who care enough to engage at that level). This sort of relationship comes from a reciprocating and abiding trust in the self within oneself, and trust in the self within the other. Time and maturity are factors in the development of the sort of self-confidence that each brings to a relationship wherein the foundation is honesty and trust. I expect nothing less of my true friends than to be wise enough and at the same time to have the ‘balls’ to challenge me if I’m off base, I trust them to do so. If you haven’t already, you may be fortunate enough to find this sort of friend in life… you may even find one here… or they might find you.

As your “the bad news” —
Forgive yourself, that’s where the ‘letting go’ begins.

233. whalerider - November 1, 2008

Burton:
“Here we see a wonderful Japanese Noh mask, representing the nine of hearts. It is a minimal message.”

“Minimal message” indeed, for minimal minds. “Nine” in German means no, right? Is that where he got that?

“She has six white teeth and two square eyes. Similarly, in Leonardo’s Self-Portrait, his right eye is in the shape of a square.”

To me, “square” means box, as in thinking in a box…or as in a very uncool person, part of the “establishment”.

“The part running down the middle of her hair represents the control of the passions.”

Hmm…wondering…where does Burton part his hair? Somehow, I don’t think it’s down the middle…

“…and three strands of hair on either side of her temples, representing the Amduat.”

from Wikipedia:

“The Egyptian underworld is divided into twelve hours of the night, each presenting various allies and enemies for the pharaoh/sun god to encounter. The Amduat, an important Ancient Egyptian funerary text, names all of these entities, totalling many hundreds of gods and monsters.”

Six strands of hair on a Japanese mask representing many hundreds of Egyptian gods and monsters??? Sounds like fuzzy math to me. What grade did he teach?

“Her egg-shaped head is similar to that of the Olmec figure with a hidden hand. We like our eggs sunny side up.”

Hmm…Maybe the “hidden hand” represents that hidden agenda that DC was speaking about???

Also from Wikipedia…”the concept of zero, may have been devised by the Olmecs”…

Personally, I don’t eat chicken embryos, but here goes:

Eureka! The uncool Humpty Dumpty is nothing more than a mask, with a shell that has been cracked, now getting cooked in a frying pan called the Fellowship of Friends…in the pan’s center sits the round, infertile egg yolk symbolizes that Burton’s insane, infantile ramblings amount to zero, nada, made up of mostly pure heart-stopping cholesterol that happens to be the color of the sun containing the DNA of a chicken, symbolizing fear…surrounded with a little glorpy white stuff…Yummy!

234. nigel harris price - November 1, 2008

O.K. folks. Don’t let REB’s f****d up brain fuzz yours…..Nigel.

235. dragon - November 1, 2008

nigel, whalerider, elena, lauralupa 🙂 Noh!

Yuansou correctly maintained,

“There is no teaching for you to chew on or upon which you can squat.

If you do not believe in yourself, take your bundle and make the rounds to other people’s houses in the search for Zen and the Tao.

You are looking for mysteries, for wonders, for Buddhas, for Zen masters and teachers.

You believe that is the search for the highest truth and you make that to your religion, but that is like running eastwards in order to find something that lies in the West.” (Cleary, p 138)

236. dragon - November 1, 2008

234. Nigel

Hi, another link for you might be of interest:

http://www.erowid.org/library/review/review.php?p=269

237. Jomo Piñata - November 1, 2008

Simian/226
Ohhh, you think you are always gentle, yet look at how viciously the world strikes at you nonetheless! This idea of your victimization is merely cynicism turned inside out and made more impenetrable to insight. You are clever enough to disguise your addiction to gloom in protests of innocence. The good news is that you may never be effectively challenged by others about this routine; few friends have enough wisdom and chutzpah at the same time. The bad news is that you will probably never walk your way to forgiveness in sensible steps. You will have to leap your own well-built defenses, disowning your morbid vanity in mid-flight.

Who is “you”? Or is this just the “random ‘you,'” a variant on the so-called “imperial ‘we'”?

Anybody picking up on that same, blindfolded, swinging-about-wildly quality which we all found so endearing with my brother, Lacuna Piñata? I’m not saying Simian’s a sock puppet of the other; I’m saying, there’s a focus issue common to both. Like actually addressing another person and engaging with them in depth eludes both people?

Not that my brother Lacuna Piñata is incapable of engagement; he just doesn’t really try, or rather, he tries enough to make it look like there’s an engagement, but there’s no commitment to engagement. A single crossed sword and he withdraws back into his hermetically sealed self-cleaning oven self healing surface self-sealing doctrine.

It was you who gave up on fencing lessons in seventh grade, Lacuna Piñata. Which was a shame because you’ve got the fight in you, but you think you’re above it so you carry it around with you like a mean chihuahua on a short leash, always yanking, always growling. You never let that dog off the leash to run, frolic and tucker himself out. It’d change you if you did that, you know.

238. veramente - November 1, 2008

220. dragon
Thank you Dragon for the post about intelligence. : )
One thing for sure we cannot say that it is a fixed quality and I believe it can grow also out of our experiences.
There are probably many so called intelligent people still in the fof, some of them rather intellectual like DC for example. But I can see their intelligence is not used to their real advantage, they are becoming experts in further brainwashing themselves even though they think they are evolving.

239. veramente - November 1, 2008

whalerider 207
“What one says in encouragement to a friend today, one may need to hear oneself tomorrow.” [Sarah E., Apollo]

Sarah, hear what all your friends say in encouragement, even the ex-cult members who are still your friends, even though your cult leader instructs you to shun them just as he does due to his own spiritual sickness. May Allah bless you with many close friends who love you enough to speak their truth, not matter how startling.

_________________________
whalerider, I liked your creativity and courage to talk directly to some of the members being quoted by Burton.
The old in pink silk suit demented man is now quoting his followers because he has nothing left to say except for sequence ramblings, does he need help the poor Fuck.

240. whalerider - November 1, 2008

Thanks veramente, I am glad you’re here.

How’s post-FOF life going for you?

241. elena - November 1, 2008

Dear Veramente, that word sounds terrible in you, you’re too good for it! but if you say it again I’ll keep quiet and know that you’re upset enough!

************

It makes me so happy I must be in love! In love with the energy! All this presence without bodies! If that is the power of words can you imagine the power of thoughts?

Have we spent so much energy disempowering each other that we’ve forgotten to disempower the Fellowship? Or has Mr. Cardiac been penetrated deeply enough to understand that the lack of dialogue Robert imposes on members in the Fellowship disempowers them as a group and as individuals (the outer circle) and that allowing him to speak too much here empowers the Fellowship? Can we now verify the power of dialogue? The fact that even if we’ve been disempowering each other in our dialogue we’ve grown as a community? That at least now we know each other enough to know who we are dealing with? What we are dealing with? Nothing but love? For everything else we can’t avoid disempowering?

While this may not be true of many who’ve kept a prudent distance (prudent? spangling or does it exist in english?) that distance reveals them equally and the fact that they still remain does too. Maybe Daily Cardiac and other members who’ve tasted the pleasure of giving will soon leave so that they too can continue to give and not remain muffled listening to Robert and the few enablers that are allowed to say something.

Have you asked yourself what you’re really doing in the blog?
What do you want?
Why?

When one looks at the world with the magnifying glass of unity, is it not simpler to understand the separations in no matter what sphere?

What I want from the blog is the same that I want from anything and everything else in my life. To be! To participate, to be one with the rest of the world. To be allowed to become. At this point the Fellowship does not really matter as it did a year ago even if I continue to attack it where ever it shows up but the idea that we will continue to relate to each other only in relation to the Fellowship is too limited for me to entertain!

It is not that I’m begging you to let me be or to be for me. The only thing I really know is to die or let people die so separating would not be any less painfull than leaving the Fellowship, my husbands, my families, or friends.

Where is Cake? I miss you already, I’ve been missing you for months now, where the hell are you? Do you think we can just go on without you? Once a month if you want but at least once a month!!!

And Bruce! Do you think you can just quit? (Well you can but don’t tell anyone!) Do you think you can just be questioned some and that gives you the right to disappear? Where do you want me to go with the pieces of you that I am holding so tightly in my heart that they’ve simply fused into it?

Paul? Is that it? Was that enough? I know this is a rather sick form to love but do WE, us all, have any other?

Since I can’t continue to kick the Fellowship for ever and don’t think that there’s a leg worth wasting on it I’m much tempted to suggest we open up the discussion into whatever else people would like to bring and that is one, because the process of destruction is not a healing process and two because I am convinced that there is much more here than destruction.

For example I would like to share a lot of what I always dreamt with sharing in the Fellowship: life!

Hopefully it is more obvious by now that the issue is not popularity but love! And if you’d prefer a different word then, sharing, and if that is not good enough, then communicating and if you don’t like that one, touching and if that is not good enough then kissing! Holding hands! caressing! with words at least for now!

You might say that it sounds good but what about the hitting? I’ve been hit enough and I thank those who have dared to, like Ton says, would we be friends if we didn’t take a few “bringing down from the clouds” bullets?

I know about letting people die but I’ve done that so often I’d like to bet on living this time! I bring you each flowers in the joy that you’re still alive!

242. nigel harris price - November 1, 2008

241 elena

I find myself responding at important times, to important subjects – that is why I post on the blog…..Nigel

243. veramente - November 1, 2008

241. elena –
Dear Veramente, that word sounds terrible in you, you’re too good for it! but if you say it again I’ll keep quiet and know that you’re upset enough!
———————
Dear Elena, do you think I am too good? : )
it’s true in general I try not to swear much, but sometimes swearing feels liberating. Perhaps it’s poison but at least it’s a very little dose of it.
Truly I do not know how to work with anger very well, I think I grew up self-conscious about my so called negative emotions. But a part of me is also trying to understand these emotions from a buddhist perspective and I am changing….sloowly…..
Some anger can also keep the motivation going without becoming self distructive.

244. nigel harris price - November 1, 2008

Thought people might find this interesting (important?)…..Nigel.

Avatar
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Avatar (disambiguation).

The ten avatars of Vishnu, (Clockwise, from Left upper corner) Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Vamana, Krishna, Kalki, Buddha, Parshurama, Rama and Narasimha, (in centre) KrishnaAvatar or Avatara (Sanskrit: अवतार, IAST Avatāra) is often inaccurately translated into English as incarnation. The Sanskrit word avatāra literally means “descent” (avatarati) and usually implies a deliberate descent from higher spiritual realms to lower realms of existence for special purposes. Descents that are of importance are mainly that of the Supreme Being which are plenary and marked with superhuman qualities. Other types of descents are limited expansions of Ishvara, and some that are descents of lesser empowered divinities. The term is used primarily in Hinduism for descents of Vishnu whom Vaishnava Hindus (one of the largest branches of Hinduism)[1] worship as the Supreme God, a distinctive feature of Vaishnavism. While Shiva and Ganesha are also described as descending in the form of avatars, with the Ganesha Purana and the Mudgala Purana detailing Ganesha’s avatars specifically, the avatars of Vishnu carry a greater theological prominence than those of Shiva or Ganesha and upon examination relevant passages are directly imitative of the Vaishnava avatara lists.[2]

The most traditional form of Avatar within Hinduism is the descents of Vishnu, the preserver or sustainer aspect of God within the Hindu Trinity or Trimurti.

After Kalki avatar is described in the Bhagavata Purana it is declared that the avatars of Vishnu are ‘innumerable.'[6] However the above list of twenty five avatars is generally taken as of those of greatest significance.

According to Gaudiya Vaishnava interpretation of a verse in the latter texts of the Bhagavata Purana,[7] and a number of texts from the Mahabharata and other Puranic scriptures,[8] Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is also listed as an avatar and is worshiped as such by followers of the tradition. In this connection Chaitanya is often referred to as the Golden Avatar.

Although it is usual to speak of Vishnu as the source of the avataras, within the Vaishnavism branch of Hinduism Vishnu is only one divine being that manifests in form. In that tradition Narayana, Vasudeva and Krishna are also seen as names denoting divine aspects which take avataric form.[2] In addition there are other senses and shades of meaning of the term avatar within Hinduism.

When Vishnu himself descends, he is called sakshat or shaktyavesa-avatara, a direct incarnation of God. But when he does not incarnate directly, but indirectly empowers some living entity to represent him, that living entity is called an indirect or avesa avatar.[12]

There are said to be a great number of avesa avatars. Examples include Narada Muni, Shakyamuni Buddha, and Parashurama. Parashurama is the only one of the traditional ten avatars that is not a direct descent of Vishnu.

According to the Sri Vaishnavism sect of Hinduism, there are two types of primary or direct avatars, Purna avatars and Amsarupavatars:

Purna avatars are those in which Vishnu takes form directly and all the qualities and powers of God are expressed, (e.g. Narasimha, Rama and Krishna). [13]
Amsarupavatars are those in which Vishnu takes form directly but He is manifest in the person only partially. (e.g. avatars from Matsya to Parashurama).
The avesa or indirect avatars are generally not worshiped as the Supreme being. Only the direct, primary avatars are worshiped in this way. In practice, the direct avatars that are worshiped today are the Purna avatars of Narasimha, Rama and Krishna. Among most Vaishnava traditions, Krishna is considered to be the highest Purna avatar. However, followers of Chaitanya (including ISKCON), Nimbarka, and Vallabha Acharya differ philosophically from other Vaishnavas, such as Ramanujacharya and Madhvacharya, and consider Krishna to be the ultimate Godhead, not simply an avatar. That said, all Hindus believe that there is no difference between worship of Vishnu and His avatars as it all leads to Him. According to Madhvacharya (chief proponent of Dvaita or school of differential monism), all avatars of Vishnu are alike in potency and every other quality. There is no gradation among them, and perceiving or claiming any differences among avatars is a cause of eternal damnation. See Madhva’s commentary on Katha Upanishad, or his Mahabharata-Tatparya-Nirnaya.

Meher Baba (1894–1969) said he was the avatar of this age.[14][15]
Mother Meera (1960–present) claims and is believed to be an Avatar of Adipara-Shakti.[16]
Sathya Sai Baba (1926–present) claims and is believed by his devotees to be an avatar of Shiva, Shakti and Krishna.[17]
While many Hindus reject the idea of avatars outside of traditional Hinduism, some Hindus with a universalist outlook view the central figures of various non-Hindu religions as avatars. Some of these religious figures include:

Jesus (4 BC–36) whose teachings inspired Christianity.[18] See also Incarnation (Christianity).
Zoroaster (Zarathustra) the prophet of Zoroastrianism.[19]

^ B-Gita 8.17 “And finally in Kali-yuga (the yuga we have now been experiencing over the past 5,000 years) there is an abundance of strife, ignorance, irreligion and vice, true virtue being practically nonexistent, and this yuga lasts 432,000 years. In Kali-yuga vice increases to such a point that at the termination of the yuga the Supreme Lord Himself appears as the Kalki avatara.”

“In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself.”

*Buddha or Balarama is considered the ninth avatar of Vishnu, depending the tradition. In North India, Buddha is included and in south India, Balarama.

245. elena - November 1, 2008

Veramente, you are too good! We all are no matter how many times words like that get out. I already have a terrible reputation so it doesn’t matter too much if I say them but you don’t need to get any where close to that! And they do have power. If we wrote each word knowing the power it has then we would have written enough a long time ago! You’re wonderfully good is what I meant! And if you’re trying new areas, that’s one not worth exploring much further unless someone is trying to kill you! or Bruce is teaching you how to say them because they sound kind of good on Bruce!! I just learnt badly!!

Thanks for the song Laura! All those animals and witches! Could we have some reality sandwich and other gems too, when you’re ready?

It’s saturday afternoon and beginning again is not the same as on monday! The clock got moved and the pretense that I’ve got to start anew on saturday or november or fifty must be a joke! Where does one start when one is already finishing?

Books? There are at least twenty on the shelf waiting to be opened. A job? I’ve already got two: my father and his book, my godfather and his bridge! and not enough time for either one of them. They are saying goodbye and when old people start saying goodbye you can spend a lifetime with them before they leave. I’m happy with this job and fortunately they are healthier than Dorothy. If only I could convince myself and them to caress them as I did her but we’re too close to touch and they are too alert to let themselves feel.

Dragon, have you ever tried to caress patients in the clinic? Are you not allowed to professionally? So much for professionalism! We must make a profession of caressing! It made Dorothy calm in a way that no other drug did. The extremities are enough. It’s the extremities where the soul is more alive, as in dancing! And as a professional ballerina she knew it well!

Nigel, how many times have you seen me go round in circles? If we studied the blog we would see ourselves turning over and over again and then we’d wonder, what is making me turn on the same track?
If it weren’t for the burning we would turn for ever on our own but together we only turn a few times before someone starts making fun of us or insulting us! Thank God for us! Some people speak very little hoping no one will notice them turning but they just make smaller circles. One word would be enough to know the track on which we each turn. Not that there’s anything wrong in circles but once it becomes too repetitive it makes one wonder where do you draw the line?
If we look at Robert or Girard or anyone in the Fellowship or the blog we can see each other’s circle just like one would see butterflies lifting off. That kind of conditionioning does not attract me and I think we can only become free of it if we allow enough people to interrupt it. That’s probably why I’m still here!

Aline, our conversation was cut short. (A little dog here in the internet comes and taps me with its paw, goes and talks to mine that is at the door waiting and smells my clothes). If I understood you correctly what you meant was: take reality for what it is and love it! Did I? I will try! What I was trying to say was: Reality changes as I or you or anyone goes more deeply into himself or herself. Changes completely: it becomes more real the deeper you go in. And I’ve been spilling myself out for some time rather than building enough peace to do anything or is writing in itself a meditation? This does not contradict what you were saying. The deeper one goes in the more real can one act so no matter the sphere of one’s actions they compliment each other rather than negate each other but what I wish to insist on is that the state of the person is what determines the action. At least we got that one right from Bobby! At the same time, as I think you were saying, “doing” matters. One is not separate from the other.

The related idea I’d like to touch on is that all action is sculpting the soul. In our times there seems to be a “culture” that believes that not doing is the only real meditation and as you well suggested, disempowering us from what we could do was the Fellowship’s greatest threat to our integrity. What I think would help us understand is that all action sculpts the soul positively or negatively just as all food makes one healthier or fatter. If this is so, then what would be lovely is to hear from those in the different realms of action how architecture, music or any other “work” sculpts the soul! ¨(Steiner says that what we do now also sculpts what we’ll become in the next lifetime! He views lifetimes as sine qua non conditions for everyone and we just move from one era to the next allowing the soul to sleep it’s night in a death. He says we in particular were actually Egyptians! It may be a lot of bullshit to some but for me it is great fun to make even crazy sense of it all. He jumps so coherently from eon to eon that one cannot just dismiss it with bullshit. Probably the one thing I enjoy most about it, is that he dismystifies death in a way no one else had) and the other great thing is that his greatest devotion is life itself, this life, this time, this world and us: freedom to be!

I’m an ignorant in the sense that I have not really trained myself in any art but the little life that I’ve lived was enough to penetrate a few layers of reality for minuscule measures of time. They are glimpses of it only and I’m just one of the few blind people touching an elephant’s leg and trying to define it but I’m pretty convinced that if that is our situation it is because we are meant to share what we are finding in the hope that we’ll one day get a picture of the whole animal!

In the long run, these are just excuses to share because it is not about knowledge that this world is about but about how we managed to love each other so it doesn’t really matter how much we know about it as long as we make it an excuse to love each other while we are at it.

Nigel, I think I also write here because I want to be popular! That is I want to be of the people! One in the Public Square where the Spirit lives. False personality thinks it has to be popular in its dissasociation with its own spirit but true personality wants to be of the people in its knowing that it is already of the people, in spirit. It wants to realize in the physical world what it knows it is in Spirit.

Idolatry seeks the enthroning of one man and the people involved with it become increasingly imprisoned in the material which is what the whole gold alchemy trip reveals in the Fellowship Cult. Love seeks untiy with the whole. They are opposite sides of the spectrum. In practical life people become more and more separate from each other as they develop idolatry for the master,as in the Fellowship, while we ought to become more and more “together” as we allow each other to be our selves in the Public Square!

Pure
umbilical
bibles
live
in
creativity

Sound
queens
ultimately
arise
renewed
eloquence!!

Just playing for the fun of it!! I once made up a game like that where we just made fantastic sentences out of a few words. The same with letters!

246. veramente - November 1, 2008

245. elena –
Veramente, you are too good! We all are no matter how many times words like that get out. I already have a terrible reputation so it doesn’t matter too much if I say them but you don’t need to get any where close to that! And they do have power. If we wrote each word knowing the power it has then we would have written enough a long time ago! You’re wonderfully good is what I meant! And if you’re trying new areas, that’s one not worth exploring much further unless someone is trying to kill you! or Bruce is teaching you how to say them because they sound kind of good on Bruce!! I just learnt badly!!
——————————-
Elena, I’ ll consider what you are telling me because I feel it comes from a good place. It’s true Bruce is a good example of not giving a hoot about saying what he says and in the manner he often expresses himself and I like him a lot even when there is an edge.

It feels good however to dare to say the WORD after speaking of Burton sometimes, it’s like a knife cutting the last thread of connection from my psyche to his, where I feel he could still have some power over me. (umbilical cord?)
BTW are you in Colombia presently? You sound light and elated.
Wonderful energy to have.

247. veramente - November 1, 2008

240 whalerider

Thanks veramente, I am glad you’re here.
How’s post-FOF life going for you?
————-
Without going much into details here, I can say life is good after the FOF. I am still having some repercussions from having joined the Cult, but aside from that I am happy and totally inspired.

I am reading presently a great book from Robert Thurman called “Infinite Life” and it has changed my outlook on my/our existence. No more “to get old and sick and die” , this is the terminal lifestyle as he calls it.

I could say more about my post-FOF path, but not here on the blog.
Hope you are doing great. Thank you for being here.

248. nigel harris price - November 2, 2008

236 dragon

Here’s a funny one! When I opened ‘Erowid’, I thought you were encouraging me to take LSD! Looking further at the links, I can see how useful your post was. It is now in my favourites on ‘Internet Explorer’ for me to look at, at my leisure. Many thanks…..Nigel.

249. paulshabram - November 2, 2008

Elena around 241
If it’s me you are asking about, I’m still here. My blog-time is very limited right now.

But to D.C.
“It doesn’t shed a good light on any ex member posting here if none of you can give an answer that addresses this major inconsistency. Is any ex member secure enough to play a “what if” game?

What if there is some truth to what supporters say? How would this impact your present views and decisions? Would anyone be in a position to do anything differently, change course?”

OK I’l rise to the bait. But in the past, your responses to me have been very shallow or non-existent. To all good liars, the truth, metered out carefully, is so very, very useful.

So, I would ask you about personal courage. I ask you to truly look into your own heart when you talk about “ordinary morality” (I will presume you have one for the sake of discussion). Your argument, from the past, is that there are many things accepted in other societies that are considered to be immoral in ours. That is true, but acceptance does not transmute a wrong-doing into a righteous act. Isn’t it easier (does not require courage) to take your “higher” stance on morality than to take an action against wrong-doing? Cowardice is so very, very useful for tyranny.

250. unoanimo - November 2, 2008

Veramente ~

I believe I ‘understand’ what you mean about saying that word; your situation led me to a thought ~ That sometimes it is very good to say or do something ‘small’ that you used to fear or suspect as ‘bad’ or ‘wrong’, like a phrase or a joke or an awkward-feeling-request of someone (asking for help or advertising that you need work, i.e., showing you’re vulnerable) because it opens up a space where the soul can actually see the real results of these superstitions’ application, once they are placed in the personal realm of movement and tactility…

These days I am learning allot about what I thought was not right and what ‘is right’, through action and movement, rather than thinking, thinking, and talking about having thought about what I was going to say about thinking some more…

There’s a place in my consceince that teaches me things that superstition, book religion and belief cannot; I can know something is not ‘right’ (and even feel it, though not in the gut, more in the lungs-area), while in true, crystal clear fact, it is perfectly fine for my soul to express it, and all along ‘it’ was just vanity or ego making it seem sacrilegious; sure, though unholy only for that which is often in us which has no god.

Thank you very much for your bravery with small things: Ouspensky ‘knew’ about this and I believe he may have arrived at a place where having built his life one grain of sand at a time, suddenly found himself on a planet called ‘Yes’.

251. nigel harris price - November 2, 2008

245 elena

I have ‘me mates’ at the pub (definitely a social life), my students (both socially and professionally stimulating) and you guys on the blog (intellectually and emotionally stimulating). That just about satisfies all the needs of my ‘8 of hearts’ centre of gravity. I might even go so far as saying that I am a fully satified man…..Nigel.

252. nigel harris price - November 2, 2008

Just something that came from ‘Henry V’, which I am watching/listening to – “Here was a royal (real en Espanol) fellowship of death” (the French at Agincourt). Nice one, WS…..Nigel.

253. dragon - November 2, 2008

248. Nigel I love you,

you are a real celtic bard!

Even if I appreciate the telling about the extensive field of the mind expending substances I will never recommend the taking to someone else.

The primeval forests and the whole nature hides and shelters the future treasures of healing.

Scientific research is on his way to be careful with these treasures.

And the shamans, the guardians of these treasures? If they are true, strong and wise they will never take any of these substances and plants because they don’t need that for themselves.

A japanese shaman talked to me many years ago and his quote was:

If you are a shaman and you take only a mouthful of sake you will be weakened for weaks.

254. dragon - November 2, 2008

241 elena

“For example I would like to share a lot of what I always dreamt with sharing in the Fellowship: life!”

You are the fiery fighter elena (ff)! That’s true light.

Today is sunday and I have an unusual link for you:

255. dragon - November 2, 2008

238. veramente

thanks for your post!

These men (below in the link 🙂 ) are working and chanting and laughing and perhaps they are holy, “whole” in a uniquely way.

Please enjoy:

“Chant” music for paradise:

256. dragon - November 2, 2008

A look from the other side back to the other side:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,587536,00.html

Please enjoy, an extract:

Foner: I think here is the irony of American history.
We don’t have an established church.

When you have an established church NOBODY takes religion AS SERIOUSLY as we do here.

We have a free market in religion. The religious groups are competing with each other. Maybe our Founding Fathers made a big mistake. Maybe we should have had an established church.

257. nigel harris price - November 2, 2008

253 dragon

And you are ‘fizzic’, as my old theatrical friend, M***s P*****k, used to say. You can trace my Welsh ancestry back to the Reverend Hughes, who won both the bard’s crown and the bard’s chair at one Eisteddfod. My dad is using a software program to trace back the family tree on both sides (Price-Wallace), which will probably be more interesting to him than worrying about the 40% drop he has had in his stocks-and-shares. Actually, I feel that the impending recession will be a real test of everyone’s integrity as a human being, not necessarily as a social ‘thing’.

Just as an addendum, if you have an email site, which you can send to me privately, and can receive jpeg images, I can send you a picture of a silver ‘dragon-flagon’, which I would really like to go in the National Museum of Wales, in Cardiff. My email site is aprhys@nigelprice.net. Look forward to hearing from you…..Nigel.

258. ton - November 2, 2008

Paul, your statements around 249 to “DC” reminded me of this — regarding cowardice and criminality:

“A comparison of all the religions of the world, in which none can claim a privileged position, will no doubt seem to many dangerous and reprehensible…But this I will say, that, as far as my humble judgment goes, it does not entail the loss of anything that is essential to true religion, and that, if we strike the balance honestly, the gain is immeasurably greater than the loss…All truth is safe, and nothing else is safe; and he who keeps back the truth, or withholds it from men…is either a coward or a criminal, or both.” Max Muller, The Science of Religion

“It is almost impossible for a hypnotized, mind-controlled, illogical, desensitized, or psychopathic person to be aware of their own error or dementia. And even those normally adjusted people are hesitant to see what is in plain view because of the depth of their embedded programming and because they were so young when the conditioning began. It is not conditioning at all to them. It is natural and needed adjustment and no other possible mode of life is any more normal to them. Other kinds of lifestyle within the world-as-is may be desired, and all sorts of modifications are permitted in order to make the mentally and psychically incarcerated feel accommodated within the false reality. But to condemn the whole rotten edifice that prevents men from true maturation, is to encounter marked agitation and resistance from those who believe they have so much to lose should their ideas of reality be challenged.

To offer critiques concerning the five-senses reality is to come up against every one of the innumerable defenses that define the anatomy of the human ego. As the Freudians know, the human ego is little more than a mass of defenses. The Ego-Ideal and Super-Ego (complexes within consciousness) defend against content threatening to ego autonomy. The ego’s defense apparatus operates in this way even at the cost of higher forms of expression and awareness. The defenses operate to secure the image that one has of oneself, even if the image has been largely implanted by external authorities. Indeed, the Super-Ego has been regarded as the psychic representative of external authority. And interestingly, its nature is binary. There are permissive defenses and prohibitive ones and, like most biotic functions, they operate unconsciously. These various ego-settings came into existence due to the titanic forces that beset our ego-consciousness from within and without, from the unconscious and from the world. Sanity is a balancing act and, as we say, there is a thin line between genius and madness. This thin line exists also between independence and conformity and between freedom and enslavement. If the human ego senses that the inner and outer threats are intensifying, it tightens and, like a shellfish, retracts from reality. This process is known to psychologists as regression. The egos’ behavior is then more conservative and irrational. The regressive tendencies, together with many others (denial, repression, identification, sublimation, sado-masochism, aggression, self-destruction, perversity, insanity, etc) are manipulated by autocrats who seek to control the mass of mankind in the same manner as Wild-Child is controlled by an individual master who, like any animal-tamer, expertly displays his two faces – his permissive and prohibitive tendencies.

Wild-Child is soon trapped in a web from which he can never free himself. He becomes enmeshed in a net tighter yet more tensile than those prepared and laid for his erstwhile forest cousins. Instead of the sun and moon to look down upon him he has the All-Seeing Eye of his imperious master watching his every flex and twitch and peering deeply into the miasma of his mind. The smile he sees greeting him every morning becomes infinitely more sinister and troubling to him than any painful prod or incomprehensible laboratory test. Wild-Child despises the punitive aspects of master but is gratified and appeased when his ‘correctness’ impresses his austere father. Wild-Child develops a ‘love versus hate’ relationship with the master. He is attracted and repulsed at the same time. He detests the power his master has over him but covets that kind of power himself. He is subconsciously attracted to it and bides his time, waiting until he can gratuitously exercise control over creatures meeker than himself. Eventually, Wild-Child learns how the power structure works hierarchically and how even his own master is himself a servant of some other agency. He learns that there is pain in store for his tendency to malinger and that there are punishments in store for even questioning his lot. In the end he accepts his servitude and grows accustomed to his own place in the great invisible hierarchy. The experiment to change his essential nature occurred early and, despite resistance and recalcitrant urges, Wild-Child eventually becomes Tame-Child. He learns to adjust and to even be rather shameful of his previous form of existence that was more natural and free. He learns to disapprove of those who exist as he once did. His identification with the object of his own hatred turns him into an oppressor and a dominator.

In his ambivalent and schizoid state Tame-Child brings havoc to the world but his ego-censors prevent him from apprehending himself as the cause. The world’s problems are mysterious in origin and have nothing to do with him. He may sensually deplore what he sees and he may try to topically remedy some of the blatant injustices and affronts he encounters, but looking deeply into causes and motives is certainly not his forte. Endeavors of that kind leave him feeling ineffectual and frustrated and he prefers to leave that kind of thing to others. His hours and days of sensual experimentation with the phenomena of the world must not be halted by thoughts concerning meaning. Life is life. It does not have meaning. Such becomes the credo of the Tame-Child. If and when his personal ideas of reality come under attack from external adversity he can escape into drugs and sexual gratification. He can eat, drink, party, get smashed, and put his blues behind him. The world is just a place he is in. It is outside and is rather threatening. It is full of foreign things he often has to pretend he likes. It does not belong to him and he is not its caretaker. That too is someone else’s job. Freedom makes him uneasy and bored. He does not know what to do with it and prefers not to have it. He invents cunning arguments to cover the fact that what he really desires is freedom from freedom. He feigns lamentation about the absence of freedom, valor, and independence, but secretly he despises these things and is envious of those who appear to possess them. Above all, Tame-Child does not wish to think too deeply or revitalize his own ideas of reality. He finds that he can exist without being so bothered, and this knowledge brings him great satisfaction. He discovers that society will reward him for his avoidance and lack of attention to the questions that matter. Tame-Child does not need to think because someone will always be there to tell him what to do and how to do it. The routines, uniforms, repetitiveness, and conformity are very comforting. Doing what everyone else does and thinking as everyone else thinks is psychically elating. It is Tame-Child’s satori.

Inwardly of course, beneath the censors of the ego, a titanic war rages. Repressed emotions seethe and boil like lava. Although Tame-Child occasionally feels this conflict he has been trained to ignore it. The training he has received from others has been embodied and now he expertly trains and disciplines himself. He is far removed from any inner authentic voice and he lives on the periphery of true selfhood. He is guided by the ‘hand rails’ of society and not by his own dark inner voice that he believes is a dangerous source of anxiety and conflict. He hides in the light and gets busy with the phantasmagoric world of appearance. He is making friends and being active and productive. He becomes a relentless over-achiever and his many physical successes prove his virility and value. He has been given his small patch of territory in the world of colors and light and it all comes to mean a great deal to him. He too must be vigilant and see to it that nothing enters to threaten the function of the machines upon which he has grown dependent. Nothing short of death will make him relinquish his place and he will arm himself against all trespassers whether they are people or new ideas. His identification with the power of his masters is perpetually weighed against his need for their approval and against his fear of destruction at their hands. He decides to obey and conform, and to be in the company of those people who do likewise. As long as he himself does not think of his conformity as conformity, and as long as his identification and allegiance is complete and inviolate, his life can proceed relatively untroubled.
********************
Clearly, it appears that we are relatively unaware of the pervasiveness and subtlety of the mechanisms of mass control. Even though there have been many clear examples of it before our eyes during the last 200 years, it remains a very peripheral study and not one that is commonly broached. Despite this reticence, and the preoccupation with more palatable subjects, there is a growing interest in the ways human beings are controlled. The reason for this slow awakening has to do with mankind’s so-called ‘darker side.’ It is our awareness of the catalog of crime and injustice that often succeeds in prompting us to investigate human nature more closely.” etc.

Michael Tsarion

259. nigel harris price - November 2, 2008

258 ton

“Sanity is a balancing act…..”. You bet your ass it is…..Nigel.

260. elena - November 2, 2008

Paul, Very good to hear your voice!

Veramente, as you can see by my excesses, I’m quite familiar with them!! Don’t think I’d stop you!

THE SMELL OF GOD

One of the areas we haven’t really touched about the Fellowship is how ignorant it is, functioning on dogma alone and recycled knowledge adapted to it. The Opus Dei or any other fundamentalist Christian institution can easily compare to its agenda: the more ignorant it keeps its members, the more dependent they become.

It’s very possible that one of the reasons I stayed in for so long was because of my own ignorance in so many areas. What I did work with and tried to push through was in being aware of the centres in the different states. One approach was to try to understand what each center really represented, what it connected with. The idea that we did not need to read that many books because life is an open book seemed true in as much as I could be present enough to it and consider it in its full extent as I experienced it. One of the problems I have in conveying the few things I understood and consider worth sharing, is that a lot of what I realized in higher states is still not knowledge in the scientific rational way in which we are used to grasp reality. The System itself couldn’t be more academic and rational but the System is like a map and experiencing the land that one is exploring with it is a completely different story.

I would like to present the following knowledge about the instinctive centre, the sense of smell and taste from the point of view of Anthroposophy which is the only language that I’ve yet found that comes close to what we can perceive in higher states about them. I am not interested in converting anyone to anthroposophy, no matter how much I actually enjoy its progress. What I do wish is to present the knowledge of something like the senses in the light of the little we received about the Instinctive Centre in the Fellowship or rather the great deal of rubbish related to the King of Clubs being an un-surmountable obstacle in our process, strengthening fear and dependence on Robert like any other Christian Fundamentalist Cult.

These are excerpts from a Living Physiology by Karl Koning, I’ve cut and pasted at my will trying to shorten it and give just a glimpse of the idea.

“We are unable to remember smells –none of us can- while on the other hand, a memory can induce a tidal wave of memories.

When we smell, we sense the innermost nature of that which builds up the substances of the world around us, the life ether. It is so to speak, the image of the ego. The organ of smell is inserted just behind this mysterious point where our own ego has its centre, behind the point where nose and forehead come together .

What we ‘think’ an animal ‘smells’. Smells reveal the differentiation things to animals. Tribes men have a much more comprehensive and fine sense of smell than civilized people.

The world ‘smell’ can have a double meaning. Touch is transformed into smell. It is will activity from without and it meets will activity from within: will meets will.
There are people who are able to surrender themselves so completely to the innermost activity of the sense of smell that they experience a mystical oneness with God.

This means that a feeling of oneness between our own ego and the ego of the other being arises. We become one with the world; united with God.

On the Sense of Taste.

A baby with a bottle sucks the milk with his mouth, fingers and toes and enjoys the experience throughout his entire body. Try to experience the fresh taste of a lovely piece of lettuce or a pear, because t do so reveals etheric powers which would otherwise disappear. We are all clairvoyant to a degree when we smell or taste consciously because in so doing the earth reveals itself to us, for it is the ether which is bitter, salty, sweet or sour. In these tastes we can already experience the difference between smell and taste because smells are as numerous as the stars in the sky, or as words in the language but in the sense of taste we have a scale similar to the colour spectrum; blues to green, yellows to orange, red to purple, etc. We only have to learn how to arrange the different tastes –from sweet to sour, from bitter to salty- and then we can suddenly discover that it is akin to a growing plant, with salty and bitter roots developing into sour leaves and culminating in the sweet lower and fruit. This is the living scale of tastes.

….At one time the tongue was an organ of greed, to take and hold, to chew, swallow and digest, but more and more this greed has to be overcome. Instead of the intense will expressed in greed, the more subtle experience of taste, of feeling, developed.

The whole world is covered with billions of ‘noses’ because each plant is nothing but a ‘nose’.

If we observe a chestnut we become aware that it simply smell the smells of Venus and contains the powers of Venus while the violet is built of the smell of Mercury. Each planet or two or three of them, send their ether down and one or several of the plants are permeated by those odors.

Smell is derived from touch, and we taste our of life. In smell, will meets will, while in taste, feeling meets feeling.

In smell we are far more deeply inserted into the existence of the surrounding world because inner will activity meets outer will activity. In taste it is as if the will takes a step backward. We have likes and dislikes; we speak of bitter feeling, of a sweet personality or a sour reaction, all of which is perfectly justified. This is not merely a nicety of language; It is true because here the sense of taste is an actual reality. The deeper our likes and dislikes, the deeper our loves and our hates. We learn this and are still learning it –through our sense of taste. Again and again we have had to overcome greed, to taste another substance or ‘taste’ another person.

Kissing is only one of the consequences deriving from the sense of taste.

All our organs and our fluids have a flavor but we no longer taste them, except when we become ill. Our gall is bitter, our blood is sweet, or urine is sour.

The whole of our body is filled with taste but only our head is the organization of smell. Now we can understand why the nose forms downwards from the head and the tongue and mouth form upwards from the body. In smelling and tasting the bodily form and the head meet, unite, and reveal to us the body of the world around us. These are entirely different experiences that those which come to us from our four lower senses.

We can say that in our higher development we go from imagination, through inspiration to intuition and we do this consciously When we smell, we are at a stage of lower intuition which is the mystical oneness with God that can be achieved by some people. When we taste, we are in a lower stage of inspiration and the formative forces of the substances of the world reveal themselves to us in the form of taste. This is as far as we can go with the help of the sense of taste.

*************

If we take a deep look at this text, we can see in it the whole of the System but unified in the particular piece of knowledge that it is wanting to explore. There is no radical separation between the functions and the world but on the contrary, the senses are presented as tools to connect with the world. This is radically different to Fellowship Dogma that makes of the body, “the machine” and of the “machine”, the “king of Clubs” and of the King of Clubs or the inheritor of Nature, the “devil” and of the “devil”, each student.

It is a descending octave in theory and practice and if it were any less efficient than it is, it would not be worth wasting time mentioning it but it is a tremendously efficient theory and practice under which hundreds of people are being held hostage.

Thank you for reading and sharing.

261. aline - November 2, 2008

#245 Elena

Hello Elena,

You are so right in what you describe, I don’t know what to add to it!

“In our times there seems to be a “culture” that believes that not doing is the only real meditation and as you well suggested, disempowering us from what we could do was the Fellowship’s greatest threat to our integrity.”
I remember a conversation with a friend (still in the fof) who was depressed after a tough experience she had in her life, she told me : I don’t know what to do now with my life, I don’t know who I am.
That’s how the school has taken our real substance, in suggesting to everyone to be passive with one’s life and just to interpret “significant” signs. How subjective!
To take care of one’s aptitudes, talents, orientations is not a rule in fashion in the fof.
If you apply your mind on a precise subject, not only things get clear on that subject, but it also excercices your mind to discriminate things on many others areas and levels.
This helps to begin to know oneself just because it is a precise exercice;
What strikes me in the fof , even more now that I am out , but even when I was in, is how unaccurate everything was. (exercices, theories, ….)
The lack of precision can not lead anyone to scupt one ‘s life or one’s soul. It just leads everyone to be lazy and to take things with no verification.
You are also right when you said: “it is not about knowledge that this world is about but about how we managed to love each other so it doesn’t really matter how much we know about it as long as we make it an excuse to love each other while we are at it.”
The more you know yourself, the more you can love others.

262. dragon - November 2, 2008

257. nigel

I will send you an e-mail and I’m all agog to see the silver “dragon-flagon”.

260. elena

great post,

If we smell there is no ocean apart!

263. ton - November 2, 2008

Nigel, I’m not a betting man but if I were, I would leave my ‘ass’ out of it….

Elena,
Thanks for the Konig quotes…. his work runs very deep.
‘Co-incidently’ — I’m an instructor at a Camphill school and Karl Konig was one of the founders of Camphill…. the ‘teachers group’ at the school where I work undertakes ‘a study’ every year and it so happens that we’re working through Konig’s “A Living Physiology.” I’ll add a couple of quotes here from a topic we discussed last week regarding the sense of ‘touch’ — I was moved by this passage because it relates to a state of conscious-awareness I associate with ‘God realization’ :

“Rightly considered, it is not only a touching when we stroke an object and feel it’s surface, touch also takes place when we search for an object with our eyes. The senses of smell and taste can also touch. When we sniff we are touching with our sense of smell… What we possess in the sense of touch is an inner experience, but what actually happens inwardly remains completely in the unconscious. Only a shadow of this is present in the characteristics of the sense of touch that we ascribe to the body. However, the organ of the sense of touch allows us to feel that objects are silken or woolen, hard or soft, rough or smooth. This also radiates inward, it radiates into the soul, only Man does not notice the connection of his soul experience with what the outer sense of touch feels, for the things differentiate themselves considerably. But what shines into our inner spaces and what we experience, is nothing other than the penetration with the feeling for God. Man would not have this feeling for God if he had not the sense of touch. That which imbues all things, that also finds its way into us, what holds and bears us all, this all-permeating God substance comes into consciousness and, reflected inward is the experience of the sense of touch.”
(K. Konig, A Living Physiology p.182).

264. nigel harris price - November 2, 2008

263 ton

I remember, in my Craft Degree Course, how we would use the word ‘tactile’, in the sense of how something was inviting us to touch it. Apparently, (according to a very intelligent, young, Solar lady, who used to live across the road from me, who was training to be an paediatric occupational therapist) babies and infants should not be disallowed from inserting their thumb, or another digit, into their mouth, or otherwise prevented from exploring their ‘world’ with the sense of touch, since their Actual Sense of Self would be stunted. Food for thought?!…..Nigel

265. Old Fish in the Sea - November 2, 2008

On Happiness

Human Psychology, as a science, has traditionally focused on human weakness. One attractive element of the 4th way was that it focused on what is possible, (man’s possible evolution) how a human can be psychologically healthier than is normally the case.

Recently Martin Seligman, a professor at the University of Penn. has been pursuing the scientific study of positive psychology; essentially what makes people content- what makes people thrive.

The results of his studies are not surprising and can be summarized as follows:
“Put aside the toys. Figure out what you are good at. And then apply your strengths to a greater purpose”.

To Seligman, There are 3 levels to real happiness. Pleasure is ephemeral and contributes very little to real happiness. The feeling of flow that you get when you’re doing something you’re good at means more. Finally, meaningful engagement brings lasting contentment.

From my observations, the Fellowship never was very good at encouraging others to fully pursue what they were good at. This denial was justified as work on false personality. There were exceptions to this for those whose skills and inclinations fed Robert’s current interests, which included making money, but I can think of many instances where individuals were discouraged from pursuing activities that were not in line with the FOF focus of the time. Even artists were confined to Robert’s tastes. I observed that Robert discouraged development of individual talents while for myself I observed that pursuing my talents motivated presence.

As a young student, I felt that I was working for something far greater than myself. I was working to create a society based on psychological thinking with a foundation of love and compassion. A place where excellence was pursued in line with personal development. A place that would eventually contribute to the greater society. We were told that Miles would be president and that our culture would bridge humanities intervals. Later, there was much talk of the Greek concept of the Ideal State of 10,000 people. I think many of us were happy when we felt that we were working for these ideals.

If contentment comes from using our talents in pursuit of a higher good, as Seligman proposes, then what happens when students are not encouraged to pursue their talents – when their personal resources (time and money) are taken away and the “higher good” becomes more and more a dream and less and less a possible reality? What happens when it becomes clear that those resources go largely towards maintaining a luxurious and decadent lifestyle for Robert and his chosen few? What happens when for years, these observations cannot be publicly discussed without fear of ostracism?

It is healthy that on this blog, we are able to freely discuss the dream for a higher society and the gradual disintegration of that dream. For those that are content to remain in the FOF, there may still be the dream of pursuing something higher. Unfortunately the dream has become harder and harder for some of us to believe. For those of us who have left, it is understandable that resentment has replaced some of the happiness that was based on our perception of working for something greater than ourselves.

So to DC, Simeon and other current students please do not be surprised if there is some resentment. You may feel it too someday, if your experience leads you to understand that your talents are not being developed or used towards something that you feel is in keeping with your ideals. Consider the possibility that some of us remember being afraid to express our doubts of the FOF, particularly before new students. Some of us may regret that others that left did not say more to us, even when we were unwilling to listen. These regrets lead us to speak to you. Could we be wrong in our assessments? Of course, but more and more, in my mind, the probability is that the FOF never was and will never be what Robert promised. Many of his promises, particularly those based on external events, have been proven false by time. Promises related to state are more difficult to prove one way or the other, so we tend to focus on the externals, those promises that clearly turned out to be false, and those activities that go against the picture that Robert painted of a higher, loving and compassionate society.

We each have to evaluate for ourselves whether or not the internal promises are met, whether our state is really improving, and if it does seem to be improving, whether that is of real value or whether it is improving only according to definitions that may not have much real meaning. To evaluate this effectively means courageously looking outside of the Fellowship for comparison, an activity that is often not allowed within the Fellowship.

I wish us all luck in finding and developing our talents and ways to contribute those talents towards something that we value. I believe many of us already knew what Seligman is now proving, that contentment is based on using our talents well towards a valuable ideal, and I believe this at least partially is what brought us all together. What now separates us is whether or not the Fellowship truly represents a valuable ideal. I think the Fellowship would be better off if Robert could find a way to encourage students to pursue their individual talents and a way for the Fellowship to contribute to society as a whole. It is also interesting, that Robert’s apparent relentless pursuit of pleasure, (sex, wine,food, music, clothes, impressions of all sorts, even presence as he defines it) indicates that he may not understand, what according to Seligman, makes us really happy.

One could also say that Seligman does not understand higher consciousness. This may be true. It may also be true that the pursuit of state for its own sake, is not evolution, but rather just another form of seeking pleasure. It becomes evolutionary when it puts you in a position to benefit something greater than yourself.

266. nigel harris price - November 2, 2008

265 Old Fish in the Sea

I remember in ‘Search’, Gurdjieff made a comment to the effect that it may be many more times difficult to live under the laws of Essence than those of Personality. Certainly, I personally found that I could not make enough money in my Precious Metals profession to stay in the FOF after 11 years struggle with mainly finances. I remember an Israeli student recounting how he had asked Robert what he should pursue after he went off salary in the vineyard. Robert said “Train to be a computer programmer, dear”. How much more utilitarian can one get than that sort of answer?…..Nigel.

267. elena - November 2, 2008

Aline,

I’m so glad you perceive the real subtle damages the Fellowship imparts so clearly. It is this kind of subtlety that I invite Daily Cardiac and all the ex-members to begin to tackle with. The damages on the men are just a small proportion of the damages to the rest of the members. As a friend called it recently, the ‘travesty’ show is so much more than just the actual rapes. It’s taken us a long time to acknowledge these subtleties and it is wonderful that we are doing so because they indicate that we can perceive something that is no longer bound only to reason. Yes it can be put in the mind and measured to a certain extent but show me the meter than can measure the loss of confidence that people endure for the simple fact that the community they chose to support neglected them unconditionally? And with the loss of confidence how many opportunities do people lose? People don’t realize that the health of each individual depends to a great extent on the acceptance of his or her community. The community is the alter ego of the parents, and the ‘subter’ ego of the Gods! it allows people to develop in their work like playing allows the child to develop into adulthood. The work a man does allows him to connect to the world with all his being. It sculpts him inside and leaves a dent for others to step on in their own process. The individual cannot acquire consciousness of the whole or unity if the whole or Unity don’t allow him or her to participate. The fact that there are great human exceptions to this rule, does not mean that neglect is the ideal standard for the average human being.

This is what we are really looking at Aline: the fact that what the Fellowship does is harm member’s connectedness with their work. People’s work is sacred. It is an expression of their being, their gift. The Fellowship reduces the members to money making slaves for Robert. The fact that it happens in regular societies does not mean it is any more acceptable in what was supposed to be a School of Consciousness. The fact that it is not just exploiting people economically but psychologically, spiritually, is what makes it a cult and the damages are so much more profound than those imposed on the average human being working in a factory.

The subject is broad and new to us but it is worth walking it all the way through because it is not just about us, it reveals so many aspects of the human condition.

Questions like, how does religion actually insert itself in our practical lives?
If love is the law of well being for any spiritual or physical being, how much of it do we need to allow for a more balanced distribution of what we own so that people are not neglected?
What we own not only physically but things like time, how do we deal with time in terms of giving? One of the things that children today lack the most is time from their parents. The time people spend with each other is necessary for the communication of being. Being is spiritual manna. It is the only truly spiritual aspect of our lives. It is the milk that allows us to feed this physical world with kindness. Without that communication we are all orphans.

I’m a theoretician and fortunately life is much more practical than that but when one understands something clearly, it is much easier to walk through the maze than without the understanding. The only advantage of higher states when we experience them is that they allow us to look at the big picture and what we have in relation to it. It allows us to look at love and the lack of it in our practical lives.

Love is the only issue. Our economy, our politics and our cultures are simply inhuman without it. With it, they are the means by which it can express itself.

Thanks Aline and Ton, I need to go and my eyes are in much pain from a lot of activity lately but I look forward to sharing all those wonders you’re getting into with us all.

Veramente, it is good to be in Colombia and not have to hide in a small trailer because I’m afraid someone from the Fellowship will actually hurt me. I guess under less pressure it is easier to be more tolerant.

Daily Cardiac, I think you’re a pimp and an idiot like my husband but I love Girard, difficult as that may be and more as a person now than a husband but I never wish him ill and you’ve now become part of this blog community too and you matter. Please forgive my harsh words to you. I will repeat them as often as I can when I feel they’ll help you understand how awfully you hurt people, and the fact that they do have social consequences but I will also listen to you carefully in the hope that I am wrong and you have things of much value for me to hear. You are an enemy in many a subtle and obvious way and I’ll treat you as such when I see that but if you can bring some heart to your posts, I will also try to hear that.

268. elena - November 2, 2008

Old Fish in the Sea,
Thank you. You sound good!

269. nigel harris price - November 2, 2008

Further to 266

I remember a ‘high-up-in-the-FOF’ lady Venus-Mercury psychiatrist said she had commented to REB, after I had completed my $23,000 Papal Commission in September 1987, “Nigel seems to have been involved in C-influence making A-influence for the Fellowship out of B-influence”. Don’t remember what REB was reported as saying….. Nigel. (P.S. This seems to be relevant to Elena 267)

270. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - November 2, 2008

265 Old Fish: Really liked that post. Lately it’s something I’ve been spending a lot of time thinking about. Thanks.

271. Daily Cardiac - November 3, 2008

Crouching tiger – 172:

“Another aspect of this conversation, about how ’spiritual life’ and ‘ordinary life’ can co-exist profitably, both internally and externally… is the subject of Wisdom.

Is wisdom a simple attribute of a higher man/woman as he/she connects with ordinary life, or – as I suspect DC might see it – just another expectation that has to be shed in the interests of maintaining presence?…”

I do believe there are ways that spiritual life and ordinary life can co-exist profitably. The first step towards that is to recognize they are two distinct “entities” very often with conflicting near and far term aims and purposes. When one is aware of the distinctions one is closer to a spiritually productive life, assuming one values the spiritual over the ordinary.

That being said, wisdom is a relative term. One man/woman can be wise about their finances, but unwise about how they relate to their friends. Another man/woman can be wise in the area of emotional relationships but unwise about health matters.

Then there is the wisdom associated with attempting to “awaken” vs the wisdom of a good householder or religious lifestyles.

If an individual is attempting to change his or her level of being from what is possible for the masses to something higher he or she will encounter different obstacles. A wise person pursuing an ordinary existence may not need to struggle against F D for instance. In all likelihood he or she will not ever be confronted with opposing it simply for the sake of their own spiritual benefit. It is unknown to ordinary life.

If someone’s aim was not in producing or promoting presence it may be unwise to dabble with going against F D as that will confuse and confound those around one.

Likewise if a person was going against the lower self for the purpose of becoming enlightened they would be wise to learn all they could about this law and effectively counteract it whenever possible.

Recently some ex members ridiculed RB for comments posted from one of his journals where he said when someone leaves the FoF he does not think about them anymore. For someone whose aim is to be present to what is before him it’s a wise choice, but one that sounds cold to someone who does not have that aim.

This is a perfect example of going against FD. If you read between the lines it’s clear that it’s not easy for Robert when those close to him depart. He acknowledges the difficulty in this area.

Many models of wisdom, like Solomon’s, probably had roots in esoteric literature.

CT – “Does Robert Burton show good judgment in his guidance of students in ‘ordinary’ affairs? One of my friends, who was in the fellowship for many years and struggled hard to stay in, wrote RB a long letter asking for help/guidance. After all the years, effort and money she’d put in, you would suppose she at least deserved something in the way of a personal answer. What she received was two bits of advice : 1. Do the sequence more, and 2. See a therapist.”

Not knowing the friend you speak of I can’t know too much number 2 with regard to good advise, but number 1 is very wise words I would say. And one can’t get more personal than giving someone the best advise possible. What I have come to understand is that the best advice for the spirit is often alarmingly simple, so much so that it short circuits the lower self.

My “guess” regarding # 2 is that if the teachings were not helping your friend perhaps she needed something more basic and conventional to get back to the place where the teachings could be grasped.

272. jack - November 3, 2008

Ah DC.
That one person could contain such “wisdom” and such stupidity will never cease to amaze me!
Maybe the woman in question could visit the lady Nigel mentioned above who earned more for an hour of her practice than people did per month of being on salary ten to fifteen years ago.
The ratio is probably the same still.
———————————————————–Hi Nigel
It could only be —– or “lady –“.
regards
Jack.

273. jack - November 3, 2008

For some reason the punctuation worked wrongly.
That should be _____ or ” lady __ “.
jx

274. whalerider - November 3, 2008

DC:
“Recently some ex-members ridiculed RB for comments posted from one of his journals where he said when someone leaves the FoF he does not think about them anymore.”

Burton stated that he values objects, like antique Chinese furniture, more than people, especially those who disagree with him.

Ridiculous?

To me, that statement coming from a self-proclaimed spiritual leader is horrifying.

“For someone whose aim is to be present to what is before him it’s a wise choice, but one that sounds cold to someone who does not have that aim.”

What makes you think ex-cult followers do not have that aim?

How presumptuous of you!

Do you make that presumption simply because ex-cult followers no longer wish to be followersof a cult that condones the rape of its members?

You make me sick. Your ignorance is indeed revolting.

275. Old Fish in the Sea - November 3, 2008

DC:If someone’s aim was not in producing or promoting presence it may be unwise to dabble with going against F D as that will confuse and confound those around one.

DC:Likewise if a person was going against the lower self for the purpose of becoming enlightened they would be wise to learn all they could about this law and effectively counteract it whenever possible.

Consider the possibility that there is another step in working against F D. Consider the possibility that we cannot develop beyond a certain point when we are taking on the values of someone else. This becomes more true when there are imperfections in the vision of the one we are following. Consider the possibility at some point, even if you feel you are not at that point, that everyone must leave the father behind. Until we become indendent we are still a child, waiting for the father to give us guidance. At some point it is neccessary to rebuild our own values in a way that is compatible with our essence and our understanding of spiritual work. I believe that this step must be taken even though we may be unsure of the results. It is an act of faith – faith in ourselves. We may flounder for a while, like a bird learning to fly. After some time and at a certain age, it may be weakness that prevents this leap of faith. There are no guarantees.

F D is not only for schools. I first encountered the idea in college and I wrote a paper on the subject of my struggles in trying to escape from it.The name F D may belong to Robert but being free from social pressure has been part of my education since first grade.

The Fellowship clearly has its own brand of F D which can be even more confining than that of the Judeo-Christian approach. I see tremendous guilt in students, particulary guilt related to exploring their own essence when it is not in line with Robert’s interests. I think more effort should be put towards being free of this F D, and less in using the idea to justify some of Robert’s more harmful activities.

276. 'I see' said the blind man - November 3, 2008

Re DC 271
Might I suggest that posters refrain from using 4th way terminology in responding to DC. If we do we will go around in circles.

277. whalerider - November 3, 2008

blind man, your vision is clear. Thank you. I agree.

Burton uses the terminology to revolve his captive followers in sequential circles around him. It’s no wonder, they pay his salary.

“Consider the possibility that we cannot develop beyond a certain point when we are taking on the values of someone else.”

Old Fish, with all due respect, those values are imbedded in language.

FD or the term “Feminine Dominance” is an indoctrination tool of the Fellowship of Friends cult, IMO

This term has no use in a spiritual pursuit and the concept behind it is misogynist. The jealous gay world calls it “pussy power”. Burton lived with his mother until his 30’s and yet would not even attend her funeral, for goodness sake. “Way of Love” my butt.

Why hasn’t anyone ever heard of “yin dominance”?

IMO, war is an example of the destructiveness of “male dominance”. So are cults.

Male or female, just be in your power!

We are all one.

278. Daily Cardiac - November 3, 2008

‘I see, said the blind man’ & Old Fish:

Old Fish, I’m aware that life knows something about F D. There are several terms which life uses to approach this mysterious law. Peer pressure, herd mentality, cult mentality, the lemming effect, probably several other well accepted terms. Pink Floyd alluded to FD in “The Wall” – “We don’t need no thought control.” Madonna dedicated her whole career to exposing it in others unaware she was creating her own herd of lemmings.(No one escapes from it in life, unless angels intervene)

My observation is that people in life only see it in one direction, that is, when it is directed towards them, but not when it emanates from them. That can make all the difference in the world.

To see it in all its nuanced ways is beyond life. You went on to seek a school so you probably were more capable of scratching below the surface of it in college.

‘I see’ – F D is just a label; if another word is used it will equally be a label. If it makes you feel better I’ll call it “A conforming principle.”

279. Daily Cardiac - November 3, 2008

To WhaleRider – 277:

FD is not a sexist term, it’s a biological term. Mother is the first one to “indoctrinate” us and as long as they are the source for milk we will conform to their wishes.

Life could not go on without FD, or this “conforming principle.” In the animal kingdom it is often the difference between life or death as it is the mother who instructs the young ones in what they can or cannot do, how far they can wander from her side, etc. For that to work total control is necessary.

It’s just that mechanical man does not outgrow it and seeks substitutes for it the rest of his days.

280. Crouching Tiger - November 3, 2008

DC.

“I do believe there are ways that spiritual life and ordinary life can co-exist profitably. The first step towards that is to recognize they are two distinct “entities” very often with conflicting near and far term aims and purposes. When one is aware of the distinctions one is closer to a spiritually productive life, assuming one values the spiritual over the ordinary.”

“Then there is the wisdom associated with attempting to “awaken” vs the wisdom of a good householder or religious lifestyles.”

“Likewise if a person was going against the lower self for the purpose of becoming enlightened they would be wise to learn all they could about this law and effectively counteract it whenever possible.”

Everything you are, needs to be expressed through the body you have been given on this earth – the particular aptitudes and talents of that body… So the spiritual is always informing the ordinary – or rather, our sense of the spiritual in any particular moment. It is a constant dialogue. If you have no sense of the ordinary, or even your own body, then the spiritual (or what you think you’re achieving through your efforts to be present) has no place to manifest.

The reason I quoted three of you comments is to invite you to notice the fact that you divide everything into ‘warring pairs’ in all of them. I wonder how deeply you realize that these – terms like higher and lower self – are just conventions, inspired improvisations in order to get you to understand that the true source of enlightenment (‘What is seeing’?) is beyond all these pairs. Otherwise, spiritual life is just an idea – a pleasing one, but really, just a sophisticated dream-life…

The second pair worries me! ‘The wisdom of good householder’ would probably take you very much further than you appear to realize. It is very much more a ‘spiritual idea in ordinary life’ – the roman centurion in the New Testament who already understands the laws of the spirit as they work through the realm of matter…

I don’t think it’s wise for you to be speaking of ‘going against the lower self’. Until you understand the relationship between spirit and matter accurately – or how spirit is itself material – and the place at which the two meet (insofar as they can be said to ‘meet’), I feel it is a very dangerous idea for you.

Why do think Jacob saw the angels both ascending and descending in his dream?

281. Yesri Baba - November 3, 2008

“Might I suggest that posters refrain from using 4th way terminology in responding to DC. If we do we will go around in circles.”

——

DC you are a fucking spaz retard moron.

Howz that?

282. nigel harris price - November 3, 2008

281 Yesri Baba

And Daily Cardiac will continue with his inane drivel as long as there are those in the ‘inner circle’ (or elsewhere, even) in the FOF who maintain their proselitizing crap. It is up to us ex-members to ‘give of ourselves’ and relate our experiences of how we have come to terms with ‘being out’ and realizing our True Potential as human beings. I find DC’s posts boring and, for the most part, skip them, since there is no need for me to hear things about the FOF that would have kept me ‘in tow’, were I still ‘in’…..Nigel.

283. veramente - November 3, 2008

250 Unoanimo

There’s a place in my consceince that teaches me things that superstition, book religion and belief cannot; I can know something is not ‘right’ (and even feel it, though not in the gut, more in the lungs-area), while in true, crystal clear fact, it is perfectly fine for my soul to express it, and all along ‘it’ was just vanity or ego making it seem sacrilegious; sure, though unholy only for that which is often in us which has no god.
———————————
Thank you Unoanimo for your encouragement to explore my own cause and effects with the words.
The beauty of this blog is that when we say things here we attract different perspectives and insights and in my mind and heart I am challenged to become more open and fluid.

284. veramente - November 3, 2008

279 DC
FD is not a sexist term, it’s a biological term. Mother is the first one to “indoctrinate” us and as long as they are the source for milk we will conform to their wishes.

Life could not go on without FD, or this “conforming principle.” In the animal kingdom it is often the difference between life or death as it is the mother who instructs the young ones in what they can or cannot do, how far they can wander from her side, etc. For that to work total control is necessary.

It’s just that mechanical man does not outgrow it and seeks substitutes for it the rest of his days
—————————-
FD is a very convenient term for Burton to screw you up.
But you seem past that DC. You have adopted the concept to suit your cult personality and possibly to put a lid on things that are considered less acceptable from our cultural standards.

Well, keep doing the work to insulate yourself along with the others in your group, someday you’ll be so alone in repeating over and over your dear beliefs because Burton too will be gone.

BTW relationship with mother can be tricky indeed, I wonder if you ever had the chance to be a mom. Not sure if you proclaimed to be a man or a woman here on the blog.
But I do remember Burton asked his “students” at some point to give up their children. That is alsmost like a life and death choice if you ask me. Forget the FD!

285. ton - November 3, 2008

DC, you really are pitiful…
‘You invent cunning arguments to cover the fact that what you really desire is freedom from freedom. You obey and conform and live in the company of those people who do likewise. As long as you do not think of your conformity as conformity, and as long as your identification and allegiance is complete and inviolate, your life can proceed relatively untroubled.’
Sweet dreams.

286. Crouching Tiger - November 3, 2008

DC –

“My “guess” regarding # 2 is that if the teachings were not helping your friend perhaps she needed something more basic and conventional to get back to the place where the teachings could be grasped.”

Why guess? It’s a huge reach when a much more simple and obvious answer is available. If you’re paying someone $500 or more per month to get help with your inner life, I don’t suppose you’d be too pleased to be told that they couldn’t give you that help, but considered it a good idea for you to keep paying them anyway! Law of good householder. You have to get what you came, and paid for..

Especially as the message came from a third party rather than Robert Burton, it looks like he just couldn’t be bothered. He is rather lazy.

287. Allan S - November 3, 2008

DC

I remember you also from my time in the FoF and I must say that these memories together with many others sit nicely with me.

A part of me likes your posts DC because they echo of a path once trodden. As I read them I witness assenting and dissenting. Both have a different yet similar taste because they come from the same arena, so to speak.

We all have an aim in posting and for me I believe that the FoF does not do what it says on the tin and in so doing is tremendously harmful to what I believe to be a wonderful tradition. For me, it is important to make a clear distinction between the FoF and the tradition. How odd, the FoF believes it surpasses a tradition that it does not even come close to understanding.

Many different examples have been given regarding this, but for me in recent times some of the most compelling from a fourth way perspective have been those from CT.

I never like the idea of flogging a dead donkey or is it a horse? but your answers around the question of Trust I found very revealing and I trust that those who come here in their search for something real will experience what I experience when reading your responses.

I feel for you DC, I really do.

Best wishes

Allan.

288. aline - November 3, 2008

#265 Old fish in the sea,
“There are 3 levels to real happiness. Pleasure is ephemeral and contributes very little to real happiness. The feeling of flow that you get when you’re doing something you’re good at means more. Finally, meaningful engagement brings lasting contentment.”

Thanks for your post,
Continue to swim, old fish.

289. whalerider - November 3, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
You are blatantly disregarding the context in which this “non-sexist conforming principle” is applied: within a cult lead by a homosexual man who preys upon his male heterosexual followers.

For Burton’s predatory behavior to continue to be tolerated and sanctioned by the cult, the FOF indoctrination is designed to suspend the common sense, morals and conscience of the followers.

The cult achieves this in the following manner:

1)Resisting social norms by promoting the concept “Feminine Dominance”
2)Isolation of followers from society
3)Apocalyptical predictions that the world is soon going to end
4)“Us and them” polarization of society
5)Splitting of self into “higher” and “lower self”
6)Addressing the cult leader as “teacher”
7)Using father/child-master/dog metaphors in the leader/follower relationship
8)Retaining membership through fear of ex-communication
9)Dissent is not tolerated
10)Open discussion of other contemporary spiritual beliefs is not tolerated
11)Strict adherence to mannerisms like communication and eating style
12)Cult leader worship as God
13) suspension of disbelief by believing that angels are hovering over the dinner table

“Life could not go on without FD, or this “conforming principle.””

Daily Cardiac, the Fellowship of Friends, Inc. could not go on without this non-conforming, conforming principle. You are right. “For that to work total control is necessary”…hence the 30 canine commands. Without the cult to insulate him, Burton would probably be in jail.

I recommend you watch the Nature Channel if you are truly interested in Biology.

In the animal kingdom, with sharks, for instance, there is no nurturing between mother and child. Directly after birth, the baby shark just swims off by itself in search of its own food, completely capable of feeding itself. In reptile and insect species like snakes and spiders for example, there is no nurturing and bonding at all since there is great competition for food. After birth, mom takes off.

By resisting the conforming principle in your “animal kingdom” analogy, that would make you more “cold blooded”, more reptilian….more narcissistic. In fact many reptiles use their young as a food source…sound familiar?

Only in warm-blooded mammals are there found more nurturing and bonding behaviors. Yet, even so, in many species males and females mature and leave the group or family to lead solitary lives, such as with male elephants and female mountain lions.

FYI, most healthy, nurturing, human mothers I know teach their children to eventually become independent of them. (That may not have been the case with Burton, who lived with his mother until his 30’s.)

That’s the difference between animals and humans. The need to be emotionally nurtured by each other, to be soothed and comforted, even as adults, one way or another, never ceases; it’s what makes us human. We learned that first from our mothers.

Maybe you could benefit from getting out in the world a little more.

290. James Mclemore - November 3, 2008

265. Old Fish in the Sea

Yes – I thank you for that post. That ‘trying to find something one is good at’, is something I have given thought to lately from a variety of perspectives. I happened across this quote the other day that you might like. I suspect unoanimo will appreciate it also, as It is something very similar to a theme he has spoken of. I do not know much at all about U.G. Krishnamurti, but I did like this…

“You have to touch life at a point where nobody has touched it before. Nobody can teach you that.”

291. James Mclemore - November 3, 2008

One more thing before I leave for work. From an article on Yahoo news I found.
There is something that some scientists call “a flux transfer event, or FTE”. The article said:

“Like giant, cosmic chutes between the Earth and sun, magnetic portals open up every eight minutes or so to connect our planet with its host star.

Once the portals open, loads of high-energy particles can travel the 93 million miles (150 million km) through the conduit during its brief opening, space scientists say.”

It made me wonder, given the idea of “as above, so below”, what the corresponding process is for us.

292. Yesri Baba - November 3, 2008

…then the Sun, she woke up, and all the solar system was the same but all her beams had the sense of touch…

293. dragon - November 3, 2008

Billy Collins: Litany

294. Vena - November 3, 2008

Old Fish in the Sea,
Thanks again for your thoughful posts. I believe they would be very valuable gathered together in a booklet and made available to those who are in, out and on the fence.

295. 'I see' said the blind man - November 3, 2008

178 DC

‘I see’ – F D is just a label; if another word is used it will equally be a label. If it makes you feel better I’ll call it “A conforming principle.”

You are assuming knowldege you do not possess. Remember the 1st prospective meeting line – neither deny nor affirm but try to hear this new knowldege with a positive receptive attitude.
Saying that what you mean can equally well be called something else makes a mockery of human intelligence. This is the way religions gain ground against others and seek to replace them- about as exoteric a process as you can have – tuly for the vulgar.
RB’s branding of ideas twists ideas that have historical substance with no recorse to scholarship, study or understanding and yokes them up to serve his rule. They do not mean the same, noone seems interested in what they mean. What is of importance is their utility. Once branded they mean something very particular that has to be taken in the context of the FOF and Burton’s character in order to be understood. This is what students of the FOF do when they start to become more awake and responsible – they see things in context and the context informs them of things nobody would tell them, it also increases the probability that they will leave. Any connection with the historical context and usage is lost once a term or idea gets processed by the inner circle to make it pallatable to Burton.
That DC is the main point about all this supposed knowldege – it has been corrupted to the point where it is not viable. It is junk food.

296. elena - November 3, 2008

271. Daily Cardiac – November 3, 2008

I do believe there are ways that spiritual life and ordinary life can co-exist profitably. The first step towards that is to recognize they are two distinct “entities” very often with conflicting near and far term aims and purposes. When one is aware of the distinctions one is closer to a spiritually productive life, assuming one values the spiritual over the ordinary.”

—————-

Again and again we have the separation between spirituality and ordinary life which is the divided rock on which the whole of the Fellowship and its collection of hasnamusses or people who have divided into two distinct personalities.

DC consistently gives only what he has which is this division. What the Fellowship proves is that it is much closer to living a decadent ordinary life than any form of spiritual life.

——————
“If an individual is attempting to change his or her level of being from what is possible for the masses to something higher he or she will encounter different obstacles. A wise person pursuing an ordinary existence may not need to struggle against F D for instance. In all likelihood he or she will not ever be confronted with opposing it simply for the sake of their own spiritual benefit. It is unknown to ordinary life.”

———–

Divisions here:
Something higher and the masses
Ordinary existence – extraordinary existence

What is so sad about the Fellowship is that the members live in infrahuman conditions and are treated like mentally retarded people who cannot speak to Robert Burton but are convinced that they are living hand in hand with a conscious king. The nouveau rich mentality of the middle class couldn’t get more fucked up. The middle class is submitted to this kind of play because it is begging for a position in power that it can never quite reach. It doesn’t have the class or the education of the upper class or the wit and guts of the lower class, so we are easily attracted to shiny little punks like Robert and their royal entourage.

Please watch carefully ladies and gentlemen because you will never find a more tragic travesty show.

__________

“If someone’s aim was not in producing or promoting presence it may be unwise to dabble with going against F D as that will confuse and confound those around one.

Likewise if a person was going against the lower self for the purpose of becoming enlightened they would be wise to learn all they could about this law and effectively counteract it whenever possible.”

_____________

All this dogma trying to convince the members to struggle against their own humanity so that they can remain in the Cult convinced that they are doing something divine!

Is it not clear to the ex-members here on the blog that Daily Cardiac is not even writing for us but for the members? The problem with engaging him is that it does legitimize him and the fact that he gives a dam about any reasoning that is not included in the dogma strengthens the dogma.

In not dialoguing with me he is trying to get rid of the strongest voice against the Fellowship and appeal to the kindness of those who will not picket at its doors and question it to the ground. In not acknowledging me, he is trying to dismiss my arguments as lunatic like so many would like in the Fellowship and outside!
He is taking advantage of our division on the blog so that he can soften the extremes for the members still inside and the fact that we’ve spent so much time disempowering me has much helped them to conform. Isn’t it interesting how life works?

278. Daily Cardiac – November 3, 2008
‘I see, said the blind man’ & Old Fish:

What is interesting about all this post is the tone that he uses, he seems so reasonable, now even Madonna and Pink Floyd are part of your Fellowship Culture dear? What is interesting is that in terms of thinking processes both sides can to a certain extent eliminate each other and that is what Daily Cardiac is betting on, especially if he can deal with people who deep down hold similar values and will not seriously confront the Fellowship legally, morally or ethically.

_________

279. Daily Cardiac – November 3, 2008
To WhaleRider – 277:

FD is not a sexist term, it’s a biological term. Mother is the first one to “indoctrinate” us and as long as they are the source for milk we will conform to their wishes.

Life could not go on without FD, or this “conforming principle.” In the animal kingdom it is often the difference between life or death as it is the mother who instructs the young ones in what they can or cannot do, how far they can wander from her side, etc. For that to work total control is necessary.

It’s just that mechanical man does not outgrow it and seeks substitutes for it the rest of his days.”

_______________

Daily Cardiac, women have been second hand citizens in the modern world for centuries. In traditional families they only do what their husband or father allows. The way you’re talking about feminine dominance applies to authoritarian patriarchal structures not to mothers or women. Power in our societies rests in Men. It rests so powerfully in men that even I was willing to buy the Fellowship convinced that although Robert and Girard were men, they might be decent. I was willing to bet on their decency. Ha, ha, ha. Male power structure is transmitted in children by the role of the traditional male in the family who holds the economic support. The disdain for the mother that traditional fathers have is transmitted to the same position of inferiority in the children. Both mother and children must obey the father’s will. Those structures are reproduced in the military with mainly masculine power, the government and all forms of authority. Women began to dress like men when they assumed positions of power. The fixation or identification on the male authoritarian patriarch is what provides the foundation for thousands of people to support dictators in the political arena and gurus in the spiritual arena. Where ever they take place hierarchic societies with predominantly male power develop in which women and children are submitted. The Fellowship of friends is no different to any of those societies but it has developed some very interesting sides to it.

In relation to the economy it is no different to other extreme ones: everyone makes money for the leader.
In relation to the life in it what is interesting is that the women simply became servants without a role, it was the young men who took the role of consorts, women without any power. Whores who got paid with expensive clothes.

It does not matter that the women became presidents of the Fellowship and so on, they were already devalued so much as citizens that they were simply used to neutralize the men even more.

This is important because it is for me the beginning of understanding what we are as child, wife, mother, boy, husband, father and citizen in actual practice. If we are neglected as citizens it already makes vulnerable what ever else we might be. This is the key of everything I’ve been talking about on this blog, this is the key to the public square.

This is what you’re asking your members to not realize so that they can continue to support the Fellowship. What do you do in there Daily Cardiac? Are you one of the consorts? One of the women servants? Or one of the men who look at it from the distance and rejoice in the fact that those structures in which men still had the power to organize the world at their will are being strictly reproduced in the small bubble of the Fellowship? Happy with the fact that if it takes to be a second or third hand citizen to be able to submit your wife to a society in which she’s worth shit that makes you feel stronger and specially it makes your imaginary picture of the world fit what your father showed you. Is that what you’re more than willing to support?

For how long my dear pimp are you going to maintain this discussion on a ten meter pole of reasoning without ever confronting the inner ‘I’s that don’t allow you to look at your self and recognize what your own interests in it are supporting the old patriarchal structure of social interchange in which you all think that as long as you don’t show your emotions and your personal life you can handle the situation?

For how long are you going to submit innocent people to the Feminine dominance of your masculine teacher, the travesty that makes you believe that anyone at any point in time can be bought and paid for because every one has the weakness of money, sex or dignity since the ones that cannot be bought with money, are easily bought with the promise of free sex and the ones that cannot be bought with either one of those can be bought with the promise that they’ll play a role of power and become chief pimps?

Is it because as long as people can play anything in this world, it is easy to lose the perspective of what matters? That as long as one is getting paid it does not matter what job one is doing?

DC——-
Not knowing the friend you speak of I can’t know too much number 2 with regard to good advise, but number 1 is very wise words I would say. And one can’t get more personal than giving someone the best advise possible. What I have come to understand is that the best advice for the spirit is often alarmingly simple, so much so that it short circuits the lower self.
—————-

Short circuits the lower self!!!!!!! In the Fellowship it short circuits the higher self; consciousness, beauty and integrity. Then you can all go pimping in silk clothes and milking the few idiots who still think that it is actually a School of some sort where at least “we can all pretend to play monarchy”. The people with money in the Fellowship must be remnants of a period who can only recognize royalty in their imaginary picture of blind servants without a cause.

297. elena - November 3, 2008

“This is important because it is for me the beginning of understanding what we are as child, wife, mother, boy, husband, father and citizen in actual practice. If we are neglected as citizens it already makes vulnerable what ever else we might be. This is the key of everything I’ve been talking about on this blog, this is the key to the public square.”

I know how messy all these ideas are but we’re all finding out. This is also the key to understanding Cults and dictatorships. As long as the individual accepts a framework in which all men are not equal, he voluntarily submits and the mechanism chews his integrity up until he is willing to abuse other people as much as he has been abused.

Just the beginning for me but all these things are very clear in some books.

298. Kid Shelleen - November 3, 2008

“I do not know much at all about U.G. Krishnamurti…”

U.G. sez: Some people wake up, some people don’t. If you do, you’re awake. If you don’t, you’re not and no amount of self-remembering, meditation, prayer, or caramel popcorn will help, so go live your life and forget you ever heard of spiritual enlightenment.

Despite his message, there are still people who travel for miles to sit at his feet. Go figure.

299. lauralupa - November 3, 2008

veramente 283
“The beauty of this blog is that when we say things here we attract different perspectives and insights and in my mind and heart I am challenged to become more open and fluid.”

Thanks veramente. Exploring with language and communication has been a very interesting aspect of writing on this blog for me. At the beginning I used more self censorship, but gradually I have realized that as I become looser and truer to myself, I obtain more creative satisfaction and useful feedback. And absorbing feedback, as you say, is a great way to learn new things about oneself and others. So once again, I would like to encourage those who have been reading this blog to participate in the discussion, and those who write to express themselves as freely and spontaneously as possible. Self censorhip, conformism and obsession with formal matters are some of the main ingredients in the soap that washed our brains, and exposing one’s raw emotions and unfiltered thoughts here can be an antidote, a way to recuperate one’s own peculiar and preciously unique smell, touch and flavour.

DC
“Recently some ex members ridiculed RB for comments posted from one of his journals where he said when someone leaves the FoF he does not think about them anymore. For someone whose aim is to be present to what is before him it’s a wise choice, but one that sounds cold to someone who does not have that aim.

This is a perfect example of going against FD.”

As DC gently continues to remind us, heavily loaded language and thought terminating cliches have been terroristically used by the FOF as weapons of mind destruction, in order to undermine our ability to become independently thinking and feeling beings. As Aline mentioned, it is nearly impossibe to correctly frame issues, let alone make wise and informed decisions, when one’s thought pattern, having been reformed by cult-speak, aligns itself to Fellowship dogma: inaccurate, contradictory, full of blind spots and fuzzy areas. A tall house of cards with no substance, hiding from view the very profane, very uncomplicated and very unconvenient truth.

Let’s try to explore this together: if you and Burton are correct he is a man number 7 (at least). Yet, according to your attempt at apoology, he is not present at all times and under all circumstances. He is still “aiming” to be present. And he still has to work against feminine dominance. Isn’t this strange?
A “conscious being” of such high level, according to all available data, should have abandoned the striving phase of the game a long way back. Just in case you need a refresher:

“Man number five is a man who has attained unity in himself. All his functions belong to the whole of him; nothing in him operates independently and without coordination. He possesses functions and powers which ordinary man does not possess, and he has crystalized an astral body, consisting of very fine energies, which is capable of surviving the death of the physical body.
Man number six has objective consciousness, powers beyond the powers of man number five, and a mental body. Man number seven possesses a causal body.”

So you may not have time to think about your old lost friends, but he has all the time he cares to take: he is a fucking immortal being ! And why would attachment to people be distracting from presence while attachment to objects wouldn’t ?

It would be so much more honest for you to say: “I don’t have a clue as to why Robert does what he does. I don’t really understand him, but still I wish to interpret all of his unbecoming manifestations positively, and to present him in the best possible light, as a way to preserve intact the faith I so dearly value. All I can offer you is my willingness to play as his advocate, and my unwavering committment to always strive for the best words and sentences, in order to testify, justify and glorify my personal attachment to his cause”

300. Opus 111 - November 3, 2008

FD is not a sexist term, it’s a biological term. Mother is the first one to “indoctrinate” us and as long as they are the source for milk we will conform to their wishes.

Strange theory. What happens if you were bottle fed (cow’s milk-based formula for instance)? Do you escape the human conformism, and do you instead adopt bovine behaviour? Is this published? I, one of the “people in life”, had not read anything about that until today.

As many have suggested, DC, you may want to leave biology out of your strange beliefs. Biology will do just fine left alone.

301. elena - November 3, 2008

Nice posts. Thanks Whalerider, much to the point with all his blah, blah, on reptiles, Robert’s of course. That list is very good because it synthetizes a lot of both the dogma and the practice. And Laura too, you sound so much stronger! It’s great!

The more Cardiac talks the easier it is to define the few points on which the dogma rests.

1)Resisting social norms by promoting the concept “Feminine Dominance”
2)Isolation of followers from society
3)Apocalyptical predictions that the world is soon going to end
4)“Us and them” polarization of society
5)Splitting of self into “higher” and “lower self”
6)Addressing the cult leader as “teacher”
7)Using father/child-master/dog metaphors in the leader/follower relationship
8)Retaining membership through fear of ex-communication
9)Dissent is not tolerated
10)Open discussion of other contemporary spiritual beliefs is not tolerated
11)Strict adherence to mannerisms like communication and eating style
12)Cult leader worship as God
13) suspension of disbelief by believing that angels are hovering over the dinner table

I’d like to keep it at hand!

302. fofblogmoderator - November 3, 2008

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