jump to navigation

Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 51 September 23, 2008

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
trackback

Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.

To access the Online Petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

Advertisements

Comments

1. arthur - September 23, 2008

Area 51 is this like the Bermuda Triangle where strange fish and Mermaid goddesses in men’s bodies explore themselves?

2. aline - September 23, 2008

#268 jack
as we change for page 51, don’t forget to check out the link given by jack on the previous page:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

thanks jack

3. jack - September 23, 2008

Dear Moderator.
Can you please put a Direct Link to the Petition site below at the top of the page to facilitate easier use of it.
Thanks for your work.
Jack.

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/djindjin/petition.html

4. jack - September 23, 2008

Hi Aline
a little synchronicity.
Ta muchly.
jack.

5. brucelevy - September 23, 2008

4. jack

I tried to put up the info on the GF under events but I don’t think it took. Someone may want to try to display it prominently on the GF if possible.

6. fofblogmoderator - September 23, 2008

There is now a link at the top of the page for the online petition.

7. Across the River - September 23, 2008

FYI the link is now posted on the wikipage, too, under the petition tab.

Bruce, I have wondered if the GF site is appropriate for advancing the petition. That site seems like a neutral place and serves well in that way to be a first step out for some. Even among those already finished with the Fellowship, there are quite a few people I know who are not sure the petition is the right direction. You know I’m totally pro-petition but IMO it doesn’t belong on the GF site. It’s not like it’s hard to find it.

8. Old Fish in the Sea - September 23, 2008

Hello Across the River,

I also debated internally whether the GF site (since it is for people in or out or never involved) was an appropriate place to put a link to the petition. In the end, I decided that it is important enough that all people associated with the FOF might want to know about it and that putting it on the site does not imply that the GF necessarily supports it.

I put the Petition link on the Welcome screen on the main page of the GF site. I will take it down if there are sufficient requests. I thought people might want to know that it exists and what it says whatever their perspective in relation to it. By putting it up, it gives people that might object the opportunity to say so and why. Perhaps it would be appropriate to start a discussion of the merits of the petition on the GF site, but I will leave that to someone else.

In general I want to minimize the wall between those in and those out, but it is my opinion that this aim is better served by opening the petition up for discussion.

It is fine to discuss it here too.

9. brucelevy - September 23, 2008

8. Old Fish in the Sea

I agree. As one of the few escape hatches, the GF is a very important venue for those that want to sign, yet may not frequent the blog. Those who don’t agree with it simply do not have to sign it, hell, they don’t even have to read it. God knows newly released members haven’t kicked their brainwashing entirely, and are apt to be defensive. As is their right, but fuck the censorship thing. If they don’t keep it posted, for me, that would quite obviously say the wrong thing, and I’ll be out of there before the ink drys. If they object too much, then the GF isn’t a place where truth is at home. It’s just a fucking social club for the various cliques.

10. brucelevy - September 23, 2008

Not that anyone has anything to hide of course.

11. Yesri Baba - September 23, 2008

Whalerider, Bruce

Thanks brothers.

12. Yesri Baba - September 23, 2008

Hell yes put and keep it on the GF site!

13. vinnie the fish - September 23, 2008

“Petition: Around 1971 I began reading material about a system of psychology brought to the West by George Ivanovich Gurdjieff. ”
Was that you Bruce?

14. brucelevy - September 23, 2008

13. vinnie the fish

no

15. brucelevy - September 23, 2008

13. vinnie the fish

But I’m sure if the person wanted you to know they would have signed their name. You think?

16. brucelevy - September 23, 2008

Jack

Someone used my name on the petition, #20, to express their maturity. Could you please take care of it. I suspect it’s going to require some monitoring to keep the assholes at bey.

thanks

17. brucelevy - September 23, 2008

vinnie the fish

Get your head out of your ass you little prick.

18. brucelevy - September 23, 2008

As well as #17. I’ve never requested the banning of anyone here. I now ask for Vinnie to be banned. His contribution to the petition:

17. Robert Earl Burton Robert Earl Burton 95945 Bruce Levy is still sucking my dick

and

20. brucylevy Juicy Brucie The Teacher said: still sucks my dick. What do you expect my Teacher? Old habits die hard. Or should I say “hard on.” These lips are open any time any place, but you already know that.

Using and signing another’s name is not acceptable to me.

19. nigel harris price - September 23, 2008

9 Brucelevy

Nice ‘n’ sassy, as usual, Brucey! Go for the jugular…..Nigel.

20. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

And Jack, if you have access to the participant information one enters when filling out the petition, It would be nice to share the information about #17 & 20 with everyone here.

21. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

meaning actual email, isp etc. This fuck without a life should be shut down.

22. veramente - September 24, 2008

Vinnie the Worm

23. An Old Current Student - September 24, 2008

Vinnie the Fish, or whatever your name is, it’s scary to think that even a small part of me may be like you. Makes me wonder if it’s time……….

24. Opus 111 - September 24, 2008

Bruce

I would not put the petition shenanigans pass Vinnie, for sure.

You also have to remember that there have been at least one, very disgruntled, recently and repeatedly banned herein participant who is very adept at such games.

25. whalerider - September 24, 2008

Jack:
I applaud your efforts. With all due respect, if we want the world to take the petition seriously, then petition site needs a little work. Obviously the signatures need a moderator and with my browser, there is a problem with the symbols for quotes.

Also, when I went to the petition page, there was a banner ad for the Church of Scientology video channel at the top of the page. Are you a member of that church by some chance? If so, that seems like a conflict of interest to me.

Can we do without the banner ads? IMO, the ads make the site appear commercial, like bait and switch. Is that your intent?

Still, you are to be commended. A million thanks!

An Old Current Student:
“Makes me wonder if it’s time…”

If? There is no time like the present.

“My son, observe the time and fly from evil.” Ecclus 4:23

Let your conscience be your guide.

26. James Mclemore - September 24, 2008

fofblogmoderator

I also have never asked that anyone be banned.
I agree that Vinnie needs to go.
I personally thought he already overstepped certain bounds in a post to lauralupa, and if he is responsible for that childish crap on the petition then I think he should be gone, no question.

Bruce: IMO it feels like a lot more than just unacceptable for someone to write what they did on that petition. I suspect, and find myself hoping, that when that bit of karmic activity comes home to roost for whoever did that, it is going to be painful.

I also agree that if it can be discerned as to who did it, it should be made public. There are a number of people that are putting themselves in a vulnerable position with personal stories on that petition. If those people are making their stories public then whoever is signing other peoples names needs to be made public also.

27. Another Name - September 24, 2008

Dear all

Listening with empathy, just listening is sooo healing.

Questioning is such a great tool, just questioning asking to the other to be ‘your’ mirror and indirectly my own mirror.

Expressing has become a new need for me too, even if is sometimes means that I hurt somebody.

To other rules I go with for myself….When somebody talks more then 50-60% of the time I am gone. I have a need for sharing, not for domination. SHARING.

When my friends assume, yes ASSUME, I speak up I ask them and (myself when I catch myself) to use question, did I hear you say…? did i understand you well……?

Feels more respectful and this is what I enjoy now.

For a closure of the night and start for the morning.
We are all one? In the quantum physics, all part of energy, I am connected to all of you?

So it be

Love the one your with, honey, love the one your with……
I sing and send you all my and your best.

l

28. Yesri Baba - September 24, 2008

Arrrrgh mate, it is a privilege to know you just this little bit on the blog.

29. Yesri Baba - September 24, 2008

24 Opus 111

And his continued attempts to get back to the blog seem to
drag on
and on.

30. lauralupa - September 24, 2008

one last quote and link from the dandy lioness

At once the winged energy of delight
Carried you over childhood’s dark abysses,
Now beyond your own life build the great
Arch of unimagined bridges.
Wonders happen if we can succeed
In passing through the harshest danger;
But only in a bright and purely granted
Achievement can we realize the wonder.
To work with Things in the indescribable
Relationship is not too hard for us;
The pattern grows more intricate and subtle.
And being swept along is not enough.
Take your practiced powers and stretch them out
Until they span the chasm between the two
Contradictions… For the god
Wants to know himself in you.

Rainer Maria Rilke

http://www.realitysandwich.com/coping_with_collapse

31. Ellen - September 24, 2008

#23, An Old Current Student,
(and Daily Cardiac, too!)
This one is for you:

“Each seeker accepts, or invents, a method which suits him, applies it to himself with some earnestness and effort, obtains results according to his temperament and expectations, casts them into the mound of words, builds them into a system, establishes a tradition and begins to admit others into his ‘school of Yoga’. It is all built on memory and imagination. No such school is valueless, nor indispensable; in each one can progress up to the point, when all desire for progress must be abandoned to make further progress possible. Then all schools are given up, all effort ceases; in solitude and darkness the vast step is made which ends ignorance and fear forever. The true teacher, however, will not imprison his disciple in
a prescribed set of ideas, feelings and actions; on the contrary, he will show him patiently the need to be free from all ideas and set patterns of behaviour, to be vigilant and earnest and go with life wherever it takes him, not to enjoy or suffer, but to understand and learn. Under the right teacher the disciple learns to learn, not to
remember and obey. Satsang, the company of the noble, does not mould, it liberates. Beware of all that makes you dependent. Most of the so-called ‘surrenders to the Guru’ end in disappointment, if not tragedy. Fortunately, an earnest seeker will disentangle
himself in time, the wiser for the experience.”
– Nisargadatta

32. Across the River - September 24, 2008

8
Old Fish

Thanks for responding.

50/283
Thanks, Ellen. I get your meaning and ultimately share your understanding. What’s most interesting to me these days is what to do with that understanding? I’m beginning to see that it’s determined by our individual natures.

33. Vinnie the fish - September 24, 2008

“14. brucelevy – September 23, 2008
13. vinnie the fish
no”
OK thanks. I was feeling sorry for you if it was, sounds like that person had a hard life, I could understand him being bitter.

I thought you might think that was me who wrote about you on the petition, but no it wasn’t. I shuddered when I read that too. Not funny, just nasty, unlike my offerings which are always light-hearted and witty, with no hidden agenda except to present my unique and cosmic perspective on life and the FOF. So it was some other asshole.

My only contribution to the petition was signing it, which amused me, like Orage signing Gurdjieff’s declaration for his students to stop all contact with Orage. But I’m not on anybody’s side, never have been.

When you lighten up you’ll understand, and I hope you can lighten up before the curtain closes.

34. Vinnie the fish - September 24, 2008

“26. James Mclemore – September 24, 2008
I personally thought he already overstepped certain bounds in a post to lauralupa”

We present the case that Laura set the tone by offering certain oral services to male members, and Vinnie just played along.

Bruce obviously has an aggressive manner that attracts enemies.
Maybe Greg.

Come on guys, gimme a break! 🙂 It’s me, Vinnie da Fish, your old pal! arrrrrrhhhhhhhh!! BANG! BANG! arrrrrggh…

35. Mick Danger - September 24, 2008

Note to self:
Glock
Lasermax
“take care” of “Vinnie”

36. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

Vinnie

On top of all your other endearing traits you’re a pathological liar.

37. whalerider - September 24, 2008

Yeah, Vinnie, my slippery friend, I am not buying that it is Greg corrupting the signatures on the petition site. It doesn’t fit his MO. He is clearly entrenched anti-FOF and you are not so.

And your puerile remarks to Lauralupa I find disrespectful and offensive. Your posts strike me as adolescent. Grow up.

38. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

37. whalerider

“Grow up.”

Right, that’s going to happen any minute now.

39. whalerider - September 24, 2008

brucelevy:
You made me laugh out loud! You’re right. I guess “take a swim” might be more fitting.

40. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

If you have a bag of garbage sitting in the middle of the room you don’t stand there looking at it and saying “hey, stop making all this garbage”.

You take the fucking garbage out.

41. Vinnie the fish - September 24, 2008

I can’t reason against the ugly mob mentality here, but it wasn’t me! It could be the same kind of ‘mass thinking’ and gullibility that got you into trouble in the FOF i scarried over into this forum. If you repeat something often enough the blind mob simply believe it. ‘Witch, Witch!! Burn him!’

“23. An Old Current Student – September 24, 2008
Vinnie the Fish, or whatever your name is, it’s scary to think that even a small part of me may be like you. ”
An old student..? If you don’t know yourself by now, yes, maybe time to depart.

I don’t know the GF, but does this blog only attract the pathologically embittered dregs of the ex-students?
Is there anyone still remotely human on here?

42. Ames Gilbert - September 24, 2008

Across the River (#50-271) said,
“I spoke at length yesterday with my one friend who remains in the Fellowship. He knows about Robert’s abusive activities yet says he still personally experiences what he’s there for – says he feels he still gets what he pays for.
He told me it might be different for him if he were one of the boys seduced by Robert.
I listened carefully then replied, “But you are the boy seduced by Robert. This is the point of understanding”.

This is how conscience works. Conscience (amongst other things) allows one to BE in the shoes of others, if only for moments. When Daily Cardiac and other followers let themselves EXPERIENCE the pain and betrayal of another (and their part in it), then they will truly understand, and know how they must act.

43. Ames Gilbert - September 24, 2008

I’ve just caught up with the blog after a couple of days. I’ve read the petition site carefully. I’ve re-read the last part of page 50, and this page, several times. I can’t see any actual evidence that Vinnie the Fish posted the insults to Bruce on the petition site. What am I missing, apart from guesswork?

44. Ames Gilbert - September 24, 2008

From time to time, I come across some juicy words worth passing on, IMHO. Here’s one:
“Very few really seek knowledge in this world. Mortal or immortal, few really ask. On the contrary, they try to wring from the unknown the answers they have already shaped in their own minds – justification, explanations, forms of consolation without which they can’t go on. To really ask is to open the door to the whirlwind. The answer may annihilate the question and the questioner.”

Spoken by the Vampire Marius in Ann Rice’s book, “The Vampire Lestat” (Ballantine Books. New York, NY. 1985)

45. Mick Danger - September 24, 2008

Dear Mr. Gilbert:
Your stink-o-meter needs fixing.
Peace & Love, Mick

46. Vinnie the fish - September 24, 2008

Thanks Ames, I certainly didn’t do it!
If I did I would probably say so, why not… I’m not the type to hide my bushel under a candle. I can be shamelessly lewd, but those comments lacked any wit or charm.
Must be someone else Bruce offended. Is that possible?
I thought poor Bruce was the fellow on the petition who spent 27 years struggling under the regret of being kicked out of a ‘true 4th way school’, and felt very sad and almost started to like Bruce.

47. Another Name - September 24, 2008

it’s scary to think that even a small part of me may be like you. ”

Silly Vinnie..

Yes just read, and feel and see if it is inside yourself somewhere, Vinnie?
O and look at your assuming part?
Do you really want this assuming that you do?
Is n’t assuming lying, hey wise out there helps me out?
Is ASSUMING NOT LYING?

Love, love, love
Love is all you need
Love, love, love…

Love, love, love
All you need…..

And as Suzie Orman says:

First people then money..or whatever else….seems more important then people.
FIRST PEOPLE
Have a great day, guys I am going out to play,
You do the fighting I pick the flowers…
oooo and bring some meat home tonight,
I get some berries and roots and we will make a soup and
sit at the campfire
singing songs…

Love, love, love
all you….

48. wingsspread - September 24, 2008

Looking at the graffitti on The Petition:

#21 “Sorry but what we have here is a blog and one that cannot be altered. Unmoderated, uncensored and untamed.”

Sounds familiar, and not VtheF… I’m with Opus 111 on this one.

49. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

Hey, if you want this and the petition to be fucking kindergarten you’re welcome to it.

50. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

45. Mick Danger

You’re right. Most of the poster’s shit-o-meters are out of whack. The same kind of bull shit sentiment that keeps one in a cult. Unbelievable. Ames, what can I say. Believe whatever you wish.

51. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

Even allowing a shit like Vinnie in here I think shows the flawed character, for the sake of magnanimity, of many here.

52. brucelevy - September 24, 2008

It’s become a fucking nursery school.

53. jack - September 24, 2008

Hi Bruce
I’m just getting on it.
Haven’t checked it yet but it sounds like some kind of attempt to discredit it or scare people away, will let you know after looking at it.
To others
with Ipso facto wishes for adjustments, where were you with suggestions when we were putting it together?
We have been at it for almost a year!
Unfortunately it has to remain as it is now and if its any consolation it isn’t the way I would want it either, but we have to live with it now.
later.
Jack.
Ps I can verify that Bruce did not write that letter.
I know who did and it was not him, end of story.

54. fofblogmoderator - September 24, 2008

Bruce-
I understand your are upset that someone used your name on the petition, but there is no “proof” that it was Vinnie. I’m not going to ban someone here on the blog even if they are responsible for defacing the petition. The petition needs to obviously have moderation like the blog does. How could anyone take the petition seriously when it looks the way it does now?

You and I have different opinions about when it’s time to exercise the “ban” and I know you are ready to see Vinnie go, but I don’t think he’s creating the kind of roadblocks put up by Greg. Greg stifled the conversation and did not contribute in a way that allowed for progress (IMO). Vinnie is basically a clown that doesn’t realize that he makes the FOF look like the flawed, imaginary “4th way school” that it is. I think it’s good to have Daily Cardiac here and Vinnie. It allows outsiders to see the true character of these poor pathetic believers.

55. wingsspread - September 24, 2008

Jack, re the petition, can you tell us how the signatures are verified as real? And thanks for all the efforts designing it!

56. wingsspread - September 24, 2008

… and I would guess that once anyone has signed it, it can’t be altered, since they would have signed something else? Thus the “Unfortunately it has to remain as it is now and if its any consolation it isn’t the way I would want it either, but we have to live with it now.”

57. wingsspread - September 24, 2008

If the graffitti writer(s) on the petition are pro-FoFers, they certainly show the members in a poor light to the world – maybe you should leave it there as an example, Jack! with apologies to Bruce, who does not deserve such ugliness.

58. Mick Danger - September 24, 2008

You are wrong on this one, Mr. fofblogmoderator.
Make few rules, but the ones you do make, enforce.
Peace & Love, Mick

59. jack - September 24, 2008

Hi
I have informed the staff at the petition web-site and they will get back to me.
Besides being puerile the comments show what strong feelings are stirred up by this process.
The wish to deface it I take as complimentary to our efforts as it has irked someone.
Wingspread
Hi! here are a couple of quotes from the site.

“Use of Email Addresses

When you sign a document electronically, that signature has the same meaning as if you had signed the document with pen and ink, according to the Digital Millennium Signature Act in the USA.

When you sign a petition at PetitionOnline.com, to identify your signature in the privtae petition database we require that you submit your actual email address. In addition, you have an option to release your email address to the petition author, or to display it publicly in the petition.”

“Once your petition has been created, it cannot normally be edited. Consider for a moment how would you feel if someone could change a document after you had signed it!”

kind of like signing a blank cheque….
Im happy to see they spelt private wrongly It makes me feel better about my mistakes and the mistakes of others who have contributed. : ) ” Privtae” sounds quite good though kind of latin or Greek.
Whalerider
Hi I dont get the advertising when I look at it perhaps that is something to do with my being on a mac but hey… Im no nerd.
Can you disable pop ups?
I had a similar feeling when I looked at many of the petitions on the site ie. do I really want to bring people here?
but with the direct link they dont have to see all of that if they dont want to.
Perhaps someone else has some suggestions about how to get rid of the advertising.
all the best bro.
Bruce
as soon as they get back to me its gone.
I have informed them that your word is good enough for me that someone has used your signature and given them your name. They should be able to check that against the impostor.
If I could go in directly and remove the comments they’d be gone already.
I tried but was not able to.
all the best for now.
jack.

60. wingsspread - September 24, 2008

Thanks, Jack – I finally found the FAQs page link on PetitionOnline.com – it’s in tiny font on the main page over on the left about 4th down. Lots of info there – whalerider, you might be interested, also. I was looking for some sort of big “How does this site work” button, got impatient.

Relevant: “If deeper validation of a petition is really called for, PetitionOnline.com has the technical ability to perform a statistical validation by contacting a sampling of signers directly via the email addresses we have privately archived. This kind of more serious validation is not included in our free petition hosting offer, but can be arranged on a cost-contract basis (see below).

Ensuring identity without invading privacy is quite a challenge. We don’t see that a perfect solution is currently available, given that there is not yet any widespread foolproof system for establishing online identity. An email address is not enough to establish identity by itself, but it is substantially more than just a name, and it provides a link back to a person for (the potential of) confirming identity. ”

Given that some jokers use multiple different email addresses, this method of validation might turn out to be a problem.

Re advertising, I read on the faqs page: “Currently about 25% of the site income is provided by Google AdSense keyword-based textual advertising placed on some petition pages. There is no advertising in any of our petition-related email.”

so I assume the scientology ads are randomly generated, and not the site’s “fault”.

and finally, I read: “Petition signature lines using false names and/or unacceptable language are voided promptly, whenever they are discovered. ” Whew!

61. Daily Cardiac - September 24, 2008

Allan – 50:281

“I asked you a while ago “from where do you trust?” You can expound volumes on higher centres this higher centres that but ultimately all this does is show, that your head is well and truly stuck up your ass.

The truth is that you cannot answer this question from the same place that you are answering all the questions put to you.”

Well, actually I can answer from the same place that I’m answering the other questions; it’s all I can do. They’re all an honest rendition of my experiences and understandings.

This blog at best can only serve as a forum for words, and words have their limitations. Sometimes they can point the way to truth, sometimes they can only cloud the waters of truth. Then again the words are independent of how another individual might hear them or process them.

I’ve probably submitted close to 100 postings and most will attract at least 3 or 4 replies, some as many as 10 or so. So, conservatively speaking I’ve been answered 500 times since page 41 and I’ve not once received a reply that agreed in principle with my thoughts. All replies are some combination of admonishment, pity, mock pity, rage, indignation, mock indignation, just plain mocking, loathing, plus a number of other miscellaneous insults.

There have also been a few respectable “you’re just confused and I know you’ll snap out of it soon” replies.

I need not mention I’m one of the few supporters of FoF on the blog, and there is undoubtedly a connection with that fact and the tone of the said replies. Just thought I’d set the stage for the answer I failed to give you before.

Allen – “From where do you trust?”

I trust from the highest part of my being; from the part of me that existed before I was born, and that will exist after I die. I trust from a voice that is different from the other voices that inhabit my inner world. It is a voice that commands trust. It sounds to me like the same voice that you heard when you were speaking rudely about the friend who briefly left your group. I’m sure conscience is involved in the voice I trust, and consciousness.

But people who have rejected and /or condemned the FoF get highly offended when I speak highly of the organization. I guess that’s human nature. I certainly don’t condemn you. We were never bosom buddies but I did enjoy your company on one or two occasions, assuming you are Allan from the British Iles.

Allan – “Many of us here on this blog have had direct experience of Robert with regard to sex and more. We can similarly intellectualize all we want regarding where we place him, conscious or not conscious. My feeling from direct experience is that he is not conscious.”

We have differing opinions of Robert. I can live with you having your opinion. Now we both think our “opinion” is more than a mere opinion. If fact we don’t “think” it, we know it. Maybe we’re both right or both wrong, maybe one of us closer to the truth. By the way, I also have my own direct experiences with Robert.

Allan – “Let’s explore the sex thing a little further, because in your eyes with regard to teaching this is really quite an important and legitimate method for Robert. In what way do you imagine Robert guides a student through this process? I mean, he is a teacher right? So how does he teach a student how to process this? How about something like “Okay dear, I know this is going to be a difficult experience for you (God knows it is for me), but I would like you to observe the instinctive repulsion you are about to sense”. Or, having ejaculated and expressed his loving joy, “Dear, what are you feeling and how do you think this may connect to the tension you are experiencing in the upper part of your spine?” I can tell you from experience that there is no teaching in this method or am I simply blind that I cannot see?”

There are certain situations and times when Teachers expressly cannot explain themselves or “guide a student through”; and if they attempt to they will have failed their test. These instances of not explaining occur exactly when we most want them to explain themselves. Only the highest part of us understands why this is so.

Allan – “Moments of experience like this do in fact direct some of us toward ourselves in a quite unexpected way. It is sometimes not a question of ‘do I stay or do I go’, but a feeling pretty much like the one I experienced as a child, that directs me toward what is right and what is wrong. In reality it is a coming together of more than just one aspect.”

We exist in a living universe; nothing is static. It is right for some of us to leave and right for some of us to stay. On the other hand some who left probably should have stayed and some who stayed should have left. Some also have returned. Schools are complex organisms. But one thing is possible for all and that is to be at peace with our choices.

62. aline - September 24, 2008

Unoanimo, Skeptical optimist, Anna, Old fish in the sea, Veronicapoe, Cake Please, More history needed, Wake up little Suzy wake up, Janna,Elena…………………………………………………..
Where are you?
Take your pen, please, one more time, to sign the petition.

63. spoonful - September 24, 2008

Having observed the concerted attempt to rubbish the FOF Wikipedia blog and prevent the truth from being stated, are we really surprised that a petition which proposes to do the same, isn’t going to be subject to similar treatment?

In a democratic environment, we must distinguish between the truth of the concerned and the lies of the disgruntled. Of course in the FOF no such petition could exist.

But I do sense there is a problem where comments can be made by unidentified persons – fish or not.

Ideally, each comment should be signed by a verified ex-student / student, but that’s putting an onus on coming out – so to speak. Not everyone is willing to do that, no matter how strongly they feel about the issues at stake.

Otherwise it’s going to turn into a mess of insults, flaming, vitriol etc – which no one will take seriously.

64. ton - September 24, 2008

dc around 61

“By the way, I also have my own direct experiences with Robert.”

Please enlighten “us” further…

(IMO it would do you and “us” more good to talk/write about direct experience rather than spinning out your usual psuedo-intellectual rationalizations).

65. jack - September 24, 2008

Wingspan
Thanks! they have been informed so its only a matter of time.
I have also asked about changing the signing process to no comments.
In which case “any” signers will only be adding to our numbers.

Every-body
If you still correspond with any friends from your time in the Fellowship of Friends consider dropping them a line and asking them to sign.
We should also be linked to some “real” fourth way web sites soon.
If anyone has any other suggestions for links please either just go ahead and link or send them to me and I will try to organize them.
DC
did you ever go to Egypt?
Because you are in de Nile.
jx

66. ton - September 24, 2008

yseri,
if this is late, happy (belated) birthday….

67. Craig Dockter - September 24, 2008

Hey Bruce,

Why is it a common occurrence, when I’m standing in
line at the Oregon House grocery store, that one of
those FoF jackoffs tries to cut-in the checkout line?

One snooty little shit told me she needed to cut-in
because her time was more important. Needless
to say, I instructed the bimbo to go to the back
of the line where she belongs. You should of seen
the look on her face…beatific it was not.

The cashier said right-on and gave me a high-five.

Most of the Oregon House grocery store’s staff
can’t stand the FoF’ers…I wonder why?

68. dragon - September 24, 2008

TO BE …..really TO BE

Is no matter of reaching the place between the I’s.

It IS the HARBOUR. The ship needs no SHOCK, DRUG, VINEYARD, TEACHER, WORK, MEDITATION, ASCETISM, BODY CONTROL, BODY TYPES, EFFORTS, STUDENTS, DONATIONS……….

It is beyond the reach of my mortal remains and my longing but simultaneously it is there as well…

It begins with nothing and has no end, it begins with everything and has no end, it begins with “in between” and has no end……always omnipresent

IT IS

But how to impart it?
Every line of thought is incomplete, a mutilation……(Is it easy to translate something from Polish into French, from Japanese into English? If YOU translate you are a figure-skater, some people (Latin) said (just testimonial handed down from earlier times) YOU are a liar.

If I see it Latin I am a liar on this blog.

No language (native l., artificial l., word painting) is/was worth to save it/able to touch it.

I am writing… thinking now….but?

e.g. “words”
get a closer look at the posts of “dragon” and face the reactions, non-reactions, taken/given hints (hunt?), the watching, answering at “work”, ………but on closer inspection……….

What remains:

Many words on a persian carpet handcrafted by many BEINGS (“we blog” “weblog” “blog”)
But every statement/post is just the pinch of a moment………nothing else……………………
not the right pinch, not the false pinch, not the pinch of truth not the absolute truth……..

(as if I can get “my right” in court…. in court: the “absolute truth” often cries….imagine: staying in court is just a play of Shakespeare “to be or not to be with open end”

AND/BUT TO BE is:

LAUGHING, breathing, writing, “give me a hug”, picketing, insulting, thinking about, waiting, staying …..sharing kinda vanity………

I remember one rough sentence (maybe really a quote of RB on the Web):

“You cannot reach it in your lifetime because you are not crazy enough”

Is this “fish”(whoever) crazy enough, so crazy, so powerful……???
I am sure he/it is enjoying all posts, all assumptions, a power drink …………….

Is this “fish” or “his partner” (really?) the dragonmerMate/Greg so powerful that confusion takes place on the blog?

That this power arouses anger, combats, insults, nice links, instrumentalizes poems of dear poets…………???

I think NOT……he/it takes energy……nothing else……and the blog gives energy…………..

It is useless to bann this energy……..it is useless to expect “insight”….it will take a long, long pinch of a moment……

This “fish”(whoever) is not himself. Are we/I always with ourselves/myself? Damn job! Isn’t it!

“Fish” if I were you I would ask my “inner self” …….nothing else, no work…………..

I would ask me: Why do I degrade my “inner self”?

Many possibilities: We are all born into this world ……….

If I REALLY WANT IT/LIKE IT:

EVERYTHING is ambiguous!

Teacher: I’ll accompany you to the door!

Pupil: Thank you, but I can find my own way out!

Teacher/pupil/who am I? (et al. many possibilities of interpretation)

This blog: I borrow the words of Kenzaburo Oe:

A personal matter

Wish you/all well…….Dear carpet manufacturers

69. Craig Dockter - September 25, 2008

Daily Cardiac .61

My Good Mr. Cardiac,

You are indeed confused and I’m not confident you
will ever snap out of “it”. But I hope you do.

Textbook narcissist behavior…old boy.

Appears you and Mr. Robert B.exhibit a pattern of
grandiosity, need for admiration, and sense of entitlement.

I’ll bet you both believe that your stomach is missing or
that aliens are seeking you out to be their leader.

“World are you moving too slow; could you redeem
us, Uncle Remus. You look pretty sharp in those
clothes…unless you get sprayed with a hose.”

“I’ll take a ride to Beverly Hills just before dawn and
knock those little jockeys off the rich peoples lawns;
and before they get up…I’ll be gone.”
(Frank Zappa…of course)

70. fofblogmoderator - September 25, 2008

67 & 69 are newly moderated

71. brucelevy - September 25, 2008

67. Craig Dockter

Don’t get me started mofo.

72. brucelevy - September 25, 2008

67. Craig Dockter

Love ya man.

73. Craig Dockter - September 25, 2008

Moderator,

Please…what does newly moderated mean?

Craig

74. brucelevy - September 25, 2008

73. Craig Dockter

It means we don’t actually listen to anything you say because you’re an obvious loser.

75. brucelevy - September 25, 2008

73. Craig Dockter

Don’t start following me around town again now.

76. Craig Dockter - September 25, 2008

Damn…I feel so moderated.

77. Craig Dockter - September 25, 2008

75. brucelevy

Following you around town…you say. How
could I? You travel faster, on foot, from one
end (bar) of the town to the other end (bar)
then I can in my car!!

78. vinnie the fish - September 25, 2008

“50. brucelevy – September 24, 2008
You’re right. Most of the poster’s shit-o-meters are out of whack. The same kind of bull shit

Your meter is on full power Bruce, all you see is shit, a reflection of your inside. I’m sorry you can’t see the truth when it is presented to you simply. It’s true I didn’t write that about you on the petition, and also that I shed a tear reading about the 27-year guy, thinking it was you, but when you are old and deceased internally, you see all the world and even love as the same inner shit.

I wonder what aspirations you had so long ago when you joined the FOF, was there anything decent inside? Dig deep. Did you have any spiritual leanings at all, any human feelings, or desire to experience a higher level of consciousness?

I want you to know that I love you Bruce, and if I see you at the Oregon House store, I’ll give you a long warm hug, and a manly wet kiss (on the lips of course, like in the FOF, OK?)
ugghh.
🙂 how do they do that?

79. Ellen - September 25, 2008

Hello All,

I’m posting here the following passage documenting group behaviour in the context of World War II essentially because it is one poignant example of what ordinary people will do (and not do) under extraordinary circumstances:

The historian Christopher Browning, in his book Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, describes the attitudes of a German police battalion that was engaged in anti-Jewish “aktiones” in Poland. Police Battalion 101 comprised five hundred middle aged men of working class and lower-middle class backgrounds who had been pressed into service. They were not soldiers, but policemen; they were not killers; they became killers. These men had been ordered to Poland because no other German men could be spared. They were off fighting on Germany’s many fronts: in France, in North Africa, in Italy, in Yugoslavia, in Russia, etc.

After the war, these “ordinary men” slipped back into ordinary lives, but in the 1960’s the men were tried by a German court in Hamburg. Browning was able to study the interrogations of 210 men of the unit that consisted of slightly less than 500 when it was sent to Poland in 1942. The unit was responsible for the murder of 38,000 Jews. The first “Judenaktion” the unit launched was on July 13, 1942. At dawn the unit arrived in the Polish town of Jozefow (in eastern Poland) and, through the course of the day, shot 1,500 Jewish old men, women, and children (the young men were taken as slave labor). Before the executions began, the unit’s commander, fifty-three year old career policeman Major Trapp, addressed the assembled men and made an extraordinary offer: if any of the older men among them did not feel up to the task, he could be excused from the actual killing. A dozen men out of the five hundred in the unit took this opportunity to step aside. Through the course of the relentless shooting of Jews (in a forest) a number of the unit’s soldiers also stepped aside. However, Browning writes that no more than twenty percent of the men availed themselves of the opportunity to cease with the murderous work. Browning cites the “pressure of conformity” as an important factor. He describes this as “The basic identification of men in uniform with their comrades and the strong urge not to separate themselves from the group by stepping out.” Twenty years later, one policeman told interrogators, “If the question is posed to me why I shot with the others in the first place, I must answer that no one wants to be thought a coward.” Most of the policemen denied that they had any choice. One objected to shooting a German Jew, although he had no problem shooting Polish Jews. Though few of the policemen spoke of anti-Semitism, the years of Nazi propaganda had already reduced the Jews to “the other.” As Browning writes, the Jews stood outside their circle of human obligation and responsibility. The majority of the men who did drop out once the shooting began cited “sheer physical revulsion” as the prime motive, but did not express any ethical or political principles behind this revulsion.

“To break ranks and step out, to adopt overtly nonconformist behavior, was simply beyond most of the men. It was easier for them to shoot,” Browning concluded.

Refusing to shoot constituted refusing one’s share of an unpleasant collective obligation. Those who did not shoot risked isolation, rejection, and ostracism, a very uncomfortable prospect within the framework of a tight knit unit stationed abroad among a hostile population. The individual had virtually nowhere else to turn for support and social contact. The threat of isolation was intensified by the fact that stepping out could also have been seen as a form of moral reproach of one’s comrades: the non shooter was potentially indicating that he was “too good” to do such things. They pleaded not that they were “too good,” but that they were “too weak” to kill. Toughness was a superior quality.
Browning writes,

“Insidiously, most of those who did not shoot only reaffirmed the ‘macho’ values of the majority, according to which it was a positive quality to be ‘tough’ enough to kill unarmed, non combatant men, women and children, and tried to not to rupture the bonds of comradeship that constituted their social world.”

*******************************************************************

I do not think the Fellowship deserves to be compared literally to Nazi Germany, since the two organizations exist/existed for widely different purposes, one national and the other spiritual.

And, I personally know that within the Fellowship group practice (I can’t speak about Nazi Germany, as I wasn’t there), very fine states of consciousness can truly be experienced. Nevertheless, as groups expressing, practicing and defending a conceptual mentality, there are lessons to be learned about human sleep, both personal and collective.

Any collective mentality that ostracises its own members for acting (or reacting) from simple, human, common-sense respect for love and life, needs to be seen for what it is: human sleep, 100%. And that’s it. And I don’t think Gurdjieff, Collin or Ouspensky would disagree. Do you?

80. Another Name - September 25, 2008

Vinnie

Can you remind me what was external compassion and what is your need to act towards Bruce like this?

Can you be more compassionate and caring and polite?

Is that a possibility for you?

Is their anything we/ I can help you with to be more kind?

Let us/ me know.

81. Vinnie the fish - September 25, 2008

79. Ellen.
“Any collective mentality that ostracises its own members for acting (or reacting) from simple, human, common-sense respect for love and life, needs to be seen for what it is: human sleep, ”

Yes and the same goes for this little blog group mentality.
It is driven along by the extremist hate-inspired views displayed by Bruce and his ilk, and becomes the accepted norm for the rest of the herd, who must either go along with the Bruce/Yesri views or get ostracised and ridiculed. This is the way retards like Hitler, Slobodan, Saddam etc, rule the crowd, despite their lack of intelligence and decency – through fear.

80. Another Name
“Is their (sic) anything we/ I can help you with to be more kind?”

‘Nice’ offer – Yes. You could ask certain other parties within your ‘we’ to be more polite! As if that’s gonna happen any time soon!

It’s funny how any disgusting outburst from Bruce is lauded as insightful, sassy, great BS detector, spot on, but any retaliation is greeted with shock, outrage, or feigned sympathy!

See how Ames was attacked, even though he was perfectly accurate in questioning the assumed guilt of the accused?
I’d like to see a vote on whether Vinnie is guilty of the petition slander of Bruce. Probably 99% of the 12 people here would say ‘guilty’, simply following the bloodthirsty mob.

It’s a whodunnit, like Who Killed Roger Rabbit.
Vinnie The Fish is innocent!

82. Mick Danger - September 25, 2008

To paraphrase an old arabic saying:
“You must beat Vinnie every day,
If you don’t know why, he does.”
(The original version refers to “your wife” – but that would be wrong.)

83. whalerider - September 25, 2008

I appreciate that yoga is practiced with the eyes closed.

At my yoga class last night, my newest guru, Christy, a foxy yoga instructor with an incredibly flexible body that puts me in a higher state because I know she’s married, quoted the Buddha while we were all doing the deep relaxation pose at the end of the class:

Imagine you are at the end of your life and ask yourself these three important questions:

How well did you love?

How fully did you live?

How deeply did you let go?

The last one brought tears to my eyes because I was so stretched out and open after yoga that I really let it in. (My divorce was officially final last week.) I thought: how on god’s green earth do you let go of loss? What am I holding onto if it’s already gone?

Of course, then I heard the Buddha speak in my heart and say: let go of the illusion that you had anything to begin with.

That one sent shivers down my spine. I had forgotten that the Buddha did yoga, too.

84. sharon - September 25, 2008

Vinnie – personally, I believe your protestations of innocence, but maybe you should take a little time to examine your own share in why several of the blog writers here immediately jumped to the conclusion that you were the author of the infantile, spiteful defacing of the on-line petition.

Your comments to LauraLupa kind of remind me of some slimy guy who, overhearing the salacious joke an attractive woman at a party makes to a couple of her male friends/companions, leans in and makes a gross sexual suggestion to her, which is promptly and maybe even physically resented by all. Really, mature, nice guys don’t usually do that kind of thing.

Then you sign the petition using your blog pseudonym, which is either a mockery of the sincerity of the authors and signers, or you are too cowardly to use your real name – in either case pretty juvenile.

You are surprised that the folks here jump to the conclusion that the rest of the vandalism is you? Who else has evidenced quite so much immaturity?

To compare these natural conclusions based on past behavior to the group mentality of war-time savagery is a bit silly.

85. spoonful - September 25, 2008

Here is part of an article taken from the TimesOnLine – September 25, 2008

It recounts a situation where someone in a position of power abuses their authority and someone else’s trust. Sound familiar, Mr Burton? Don’t you wish you were that teacher? I’m sure Mr Wright can do no wrong in your eyes.

“Tom Perry was watching a film in his boarding school gymnasium when his French master leant over and whispered: “I might come to your dormitory tonight.” It was a Saturday evening and Perry, then 11, was elated. He imagined that, as one of Caldicott’s sporting elite and golden boys, he might have been selected to be taken somewhere special as a weekend treat.

True to his word, Peter Wright, the teacher, did come to the dormitory in the early hours and told Perry to make his way to his private room. When the boy did so, he found Wright lying in bed.

Perry’s account of what happened next is grotesque. The teacher lifted the bedcovers to reveal that he was naked and sexually aroused, and invited the child to get in. Unsure what else to do, he did so. He says that Wright put his tongue in his mouth and kissed him, then indecently assaulted him and made the boy do the same in return. When Wright was satisfied, the bewildered child was dismissed back to his dormitory.

So began a routine of abuse, says Perry. Wright, also the rugby and cricket master, who was hero-worshipped and feared by the pupils in equal measure, was often reckless in his greed. He would request that Perry bring his morning cup of tea up to his room, which he did in view of the whole school, then get the boy to masturbate him. During other, longer sessions with Wright in bed, the teacher would tell him about the sexual relationships he was having with women, often making disparaging remarks about their bodies. It was a secret world, a foul cocoon. But it was not a one-off (story continues…)”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article4820193.ece

86. vinnie the fish - September 25, 2008

84. sharon – September 25, 2008
Vinnie – personally, I believe your protestations of innocence, but maybe you should take a little time to examine your own share.

OK I’m sorry, you’re right.

But I can’t use my real name, I’m still in!
Signing the blog was just for fun.
I want to lighten people up.
Did you experience a unique objective love with any of the people you encountered in this school, at any point?

87. A former student - September 25, 2008

I left in November 2006, after being in the School for 19 years.
When I left, I made myself a rule, leave!!! really leave!!!

I was visiting this Blog 2-3 times out of curiosity.

I know many of you personally.

There is a story about a Guru and one of his devotees who were walking on the way and came across a young lady who asked them for help to cross a stream. The Guru carried her on his arms across the stream left here there and the two kept on walking in silence. After a long walk the devotee asked his Guru, “How come you carried a young girl in your arms?” And the Guru replied, “You see, I carried her for one minute and you have been carrying her for hours.”

I can see now that there are so many former students, who are still carrying the School in their minds and cannot let go.

Guys, this is mere obsession. You encourage students to leave, and that might be the right thing to do, but if you are writing here for months, that means that mentally you are still in the School.

If the School is a Jail, this Blog seems to be a dungeon for you.

Let go, drag this School from your minds in your Recycle Bin.

88. sharon - September 25, 2008

Vinnie:
“But I can’t use my real name, I’m still in!” Doesn’t that feel weird to you? That you can’t be publically honest about yourself in that environment?

“Signing the blog was just for fun.
I want to lighten people up.” Reminds me of the guys’ feelings in high school when they tp the house of some fellow-student ‘just for fun’.

“Did you experience a unique objective love with any of the people you encountered in this school, at any point?”
I felt and feel a deep love for a number of people whom I met in the FoF, some of whom are still members. I don’t know if it is objective, and I suppose my love for each person is ‘unique’ in its way. I also have felt and do feel love for friends with whom I have had deep experiences outside of FoF, generally pre-dating my entry into FoF.
Why do you ask?

89. Associated Press - September 25, 2008

Re: 51/~85. spoonful – September 25, 2008

Re: Caldicott: Forty years on, the schoolboys confront abuse

True Stories:
[Told in the film] Chosen
http://www.chosen.org.uk/

Excerpts of note:

“The abused always ends up protecting the abuser,” he says. “It was a defining moment in being groomed; he had broken me, I was no longer connected to my family, to the truth.”

Is it likely that the teachers concerned were themselves abused as children? Payge says that it wouldn’t surprise him. Some of the teachers, he said, “behaved like children”, as if they were in arrested development: “They were absolutely insatiable … dysfunctional people.”

More people are expected to come forward as a result of this film [Chosen]. Whether they do or not, these men have taken a colossal step by speaking out publicly after so many years hushed by shame. As they now know, there is no greater friend to the paedophile than silence.

– – – – – –

Gee, Teacher, what a familiar story!

Oh, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott
Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist
(1771 – 1832)

– – – – – –

Besides the Fellowship of Friends being an imitation of a real school, it is likely a paedophile factory.

90. Another Name - September 26, 2008

Dear former student

Yes you might be right and….

can see now that there are so many former students, who are still carrying the School in their minds and cannot let go.

Guys, this is mere obsession. You encourage students to leave, and that might be the right thing to do, but if you are writing here for months, that means that mentally you are still in the School.

I WOULD APPRECIATE INSTEAD OF ASSUMING TO ASK ME SOME QUESTIONS…

Like: do you think you are still carrying the school? what does this blog do for to you?…

i look forward to many questions as many things I have not understood myself….i am still LIVING THEQUESTION>

When i read your entree, i feel judge and thatis what i felt all these years in the fellowship of friends, i was a queen , I was to young, I was not long enough in the system…i was in the inner circle.

I will ask you some questions….did you grief your loss?
How is your conscience?
Any physical ailments that bother you?
Have you been able tohelp your neighbour?
Can you listen and sit with a friend?
Can you?

Look forward to your answers and more questions…

91. Associated Press - September 26, 2008

Scenes that some might like to see happen to ‘you-know-who.’:

FBI: Evangelist Alamo arrested in child sex probe
Sept. 25, 2008

By JON GAMBRELL

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) – The FBI says evangelist Tony Alamo (uh-LAHM’-oh) has been arrested in Arizona on suspicion of transporting minors across state lines for sexual purposes.

FBI spokesman Steve Frazier says Alamo was staying at a motel in Flagstaff when agents arrested him Thursday.

Authorities raided the Tony Alamo Christian Ministries compound in Arkansas last week and removed six girls.

Frazier says he did not believe children were with Alamo when he was arrested. He is scheduled for a federal court appearance Friday in Arizona.

Some critics call Alamo’s ministry a cult.

92. Jomo Piñata - September 26, 2008

“objective love”

Is there some reason “love” needs conditions, modifiers, qualifiers? My experience is, love doesn’t need any of those things. “Unconditional love” is this abstract normative thing to which love gets compared and found wanting. How about plain old “love,” no qualifiers, no modifiers?

“A Former Student” wrote:

Guys, this is mere obsession. You encourage students to leave, and that might be the right thing to do, but if you are writing here for months, that means that mentally you are still in the School.

Sez who. That you see posters here this way is a limitation of YOUR mind, not theirs. Why is caring about those still in and hoping to influence their decisions by posting opinions “obsession”? Couldn’t it be, simply, caring?

93. Another Name - September 26, 2008

Is their anything we/ I can help you with to be more kind?

Dear Vinnie this was my question.

Is their anything we/ I can help you with to BE MORE KIND?

Just for my clarifaction needs.:

I am not here to tell other people to do things different and I am not part of the your assumed “we blog group”. Or am I? I do not even know were you have encoutered this group?

94. Jomo Piñata - September 26, 2008

Note to “A Former Student”:

Someone who has spent years of his or her life in a cult and who has then exited that environment has some heavy duty processing to do. It may take decades to work through some of the issues: after all, some of those issues preceded the cult involvement and rendered the individual vulnerable to the particular manipulations and illusions that are part and parcel of the involvement.

Ignoring those issues, or even “making a break with the past” doesn’t make them go away. Everyone learns this eventually, except the ones who don’t, The Recalcitrant. And in their case the scripts of the past (projected onto the Cast of the present) impose themselves ever the more forcefully until the lessons are absorbed and learned.

Months? Ha!

95. sharon - September 26, 2008

former student: there are folks in and around the FoF that I love. I don’t sense that this is true for you, mainly I suppose, because you left long ago (so why do you check in from time to time?).

Part of Blogging here is to connect to these people I love; much is to process some of the many issues that need to be dealt with.

“Mentally still in the School”? – maybe a more accurate description is still loving my friends.

and thank you, veronicapoe, for freeing up the use of that word – love.

96. sharon - September 26, 2008

a former student #87 – went back and re-read – I confused you with another “former student” when I wrote above “I don’t sense that this is true for you, mainly I suppose, because you left long ago (so why do you check in from time to time?). ”

I see that you say you left in 2006, much more recently than that other “former student” – God this is confusing! there are too many “former students” out there.

97. Daily Cardiac - September 26, 2008

Ellen – 31:

“The true teacher, however, will not imprison his disciple in
a prescribed set of ideas, feelings and actions; on the contrary, he will show him patiently the need to be free from all ideas and set patterns of behavior, to be vigilant and earnest and go with life wherever it takes him, not to enjoy or suffer, but to understand and learn. Under the right teacher the disciple learns to learn, not to
remember and obey.”

Thank you for the quote. I agree wholeheartedly with most of it. Most of it applies to my daily life, except for the seeming disregard for remembrance and obedience. I don’t see where “learning to learn” precludes obedience. For me it would be more accurate to say obedience facilitates learning to learn.

I guess I won’t ever convince you I stay in the school because it works for me; it produces the results I came for.

At one time all on the blog were looking for a teacher they could trust and obey; and they also knew that obedience was a major part of the relationship. What we all underestimated was the resistence inside of us to giving up our will to a teacher and simply obeying.

Obedience is a revered and time tested principle in the teacher/student relationship. Just because a person loses faith in the FoF or in teachers in general it does not at all change or alter the value of this principle. No person’s leaving the FoF changes centuries of spiritual tradition.

Obedience is a higher law. There would be no such thing as order without obedience. And without order there would be only chaos.

I’m all in favor of each person finding their own way; if they are still pursuing a way to spiritual truth. The FoF is not for everyone, but for many it does work on the scale of a lifetime. And it has worked for thousands others in the past; anywhere from a few months to a few decades.

98. sharon - September 26, 2008

“At one time all on the blog were looking for a teacher they could trust and obey; and they also knew that obedience was a major part of the relationship. What we all underestimated was the resistence inside of us to giving up our will to a teacher and simply obeying.”

Actually, that’s not true. I did not join the Fellowship for a teacher. The existence of A Teacher was a big barrier for me to join – I joined in spite of the Guru, and my distrust turned out to be well founded.

I suggest you try not to speak for others.

“Obedience is a higher law.” sez who? and to what?

99. Opus 111 - September 26, 2008

Daily Cardiac

At one time all on the blog were looking for a teacher they could trust and obey; and they also knew that obedience was a major part of the relationship. What we all underestimated was the resistence inside of us to giving up our will to a teacher and simply obeying.

What I underestimated is that my “teacher’s” first and main goal was one of greed and lust, rather than the one he swore on every Sunday: “the good” of my soul. I underestimated my ability to see clearly because this teacher is, and has long been cunning enough to disguise his real motives behind the acts of a devoted guru; because many of the people assembled in this spiritual venture became my close friends, my partners in delusion; because I did not really believe someone could abuse the highest in so many for the basest of purpose. And yes, for the most part, I too was obedient.

Obedience is a revered and time tested principle in the teacher/student relationship. Just because a person loses faith in the FoF or in teachers in general it does not at all change or alter the value of this principle. No person’s leaving the FoF changes centuries of spiritual tradition.

Discovering that your teacher is a fraud put quite a dent into that tendency. It may not change the spiritual tradition, but it increases the wisdom of those who leave.

Obedience is a higher law. There would be no such thing as order without obedience. And without order there would be only chaos.

?????? It may be time to come down Mount Renaissance and cut the pedantic bunkum.

100. whalerider - September 26, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
“Obedience is a higher law. There would be no such thing as order without obedience. And without order there would be only chaos.”

Spoken by a true control freak. In my direct experience this is the exact same style of thinking I have observed in someone suffering from obsessive-compulsive disorder. They must obey their obsessions because they are ruled by the fear that otherwise their world will descend into chaos! This is so far from “being present” it’s not even funny, it’s revolting.

You, my friend, are a fear monger, not a philosopher. Whirl in a sandstorm in the middle of the desert and then talk to me!

Where there chaos, there is power! That’s why you post. You seek to impose upon the free your will to submit. That is your weakness, not your strength! Be gone with you! We have no use for you and your kind!! I rend you from my coat like dust!!!

Where there is order, there is only domination and submission; there is no light.

Obedience is only a higher law for the oppressor. For the oppressed, obedience is a yoke that keeps them in darkness and from ever fully knowing their own divinity. You make me want to puke! Do you truly believe your thoughts are the musing of your higher intellect? May the sword of Allah fall upon your head!

Your philosophy is egocentric, not divine! You speak for the masses, not for the individual seeking mystical union with the Absolute.

It is the ego that erroneously thinks it can impose order onto nature. Nature is the next greater cosmos up-world 48, my friend, we are mere shadows in world 96. Only internally do we have access to higher worlds. We are under nature’s laws. Our puny attempts to control nature are miniscule in the vast scheme of nature. Ask your exalted cult leader to try and stop the ocean’s tide. Ask him to stop an earthquake with his bare hands. Ask him to tell the sun not to shine! Obedience to what? To his body’s carnal lust????

I laugh at you! You speak as a mere protozoa among men. You do not belong here among the free. Obedience! You speak only for the forces of sleep.

May the sands of time wipe your memory from the face of the Earth!

I am done with you and your obedience, you dog!

I know who you are.

101. nigel harris price - September 26, 2008

Here is one for the books – speaking as someone who has never been married or had a relationship lasting longer tham a year, and certainly not vast amounts of sexual activity, I can say that there is other beauty in the Universe to be found other than in a ‘student’s’ trousers! (Yes – you’re right – I am pretty much Solar – but happy that way, for the most part!)…..Nigel.

102. Vinnie the fish - September 26, 2008

That’s funny Whalerider, very good.

103. spoonful - September 26, 2008

87 – A former student – September 25, 2008

” I left in November 2006, after being in the School for 19 years. When I left, I made myself a rule, leave!!! really leave!!!”

I would really worry for you if you could “really leave”. Those who can cut themselves off from experiences so surgically are likely to be suffering from trauma – or be classified as dysfunctional.

How do you think Robert Burton continues along the path he does? He must have some serious “leave” mechanisms at work!

It’s a sign of humanity to care for others (for reasons other than self interest). I detect many of those who contribute here are doing it for that reason.

104. nigel harris price - September 26, 2008

103 spoonful

I was ‘released’ from the FOF in June 1989 and the reason I blog? – just as you stated – a humanitarian heart, wishing to care for others who, given time (and time is a healer, as the saying goes) can lift themselves out of the ‘mess’ that the FOF made of their lives and reach and manage their self-aspirational potential.

‘EMPATHY’ – YOUR PAIN IN MY HEART…..Nigel.

105. Ellen - September 26, 2008

#97, Daily Cardiac,

I do understand that the Fellowship works for you. And that may (or may not) continue to be true for the rest of your life. Who knows?

I perceive a few elements of it that are extremely important for you, as to why it works: obedience is one, surrender is another, the “evil” lower self is a third. In a certain way they form a triad as they are “esoterically” interdependent of one another, aren’t they?

My perception from experience and observation, is that that particular fomula especially as it is expressed in the Fellowship, can principally be helpful for people who are active types, with a strong power feature, and maybe throw in the queen of hearts as a center of gravity just for a bit more juice. My friend (and probably yours, too), R.C. (now deceased) profited from the “denial with a smile” yoke of RB’s interpretation of Influence C. There is also A.F., B.Y., G.R., C.W. (now deceased), A.G.(now deceased), R. McD.(now deceased) or many others, past and present. Active types, queens, power features, etc…

But has/did anyone realize the Self?

Then there is the yoke of obedience and surrender, applied to an “evil” lower self, for all the other types who enter the Fellowship universe. Can you see that for them it is at best just formatory and at worst psychologically destructive nonsense? Since your own experience of it has been good, then wouldn’t you also encourage the same surrender and obedience to any young attractive, lunar-venusian-solar male (perhaps even from a dysfunctional family background) who has just been escorted into Robert’s bedroom? Actually, from reading your previous posts, I can already answer for you, “yes”. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

So we can agree, there is some profit to be made in the Fellowship of Friends by some types of people from the greater spectrum of possibilities on this planet.

But has anyone realized the Self?

And are the Fourth Way ideas themselves “objective”? Is the Fellowship’s application of the Fourth Way ideas “objective”? Or is the Fellowship’s interpretation of evolution in fact very subjective – even though (lucky for you?!?) – it corresponds to your own subjectivity? And how can you find out?

106. Ellen - September 26, 2008

#97, Daily Cardiac,

“Obedience is a higher law. There would be no such thing as order without obedience. And without order there would be only chaos.”

No offense, I have to question your heirarchichal logic here. To my perception, order and chaos exist as two sides of one coin. One could not exist without the other, they define each other, as both being products of the mind’s need to impose itself upon reality. Such concepts function similarly to space, time and causality, as a priori structures of the mind’s cognition, but not reality in itself.

Obedience then, is a lower law and then only in relation to order. So there is obedience and disobedience on the level of action in the world, in relation to order on some kind of “higher” conceptual level. Can there be obedience or disobedience to chaos? Interesting, yes? Maybe the name of a new rock band? Anyway, if so, then obedience surely loses its meaning… Hooray!!!

Let’s grow up and find what replaces it.

107. nigel harris price - September 26, 2008

Just as a complete aside – why did G—-d H—n call his book “Creating a Soul”? According to most (well-documented) teachings, a soul is something that each human being has, and is to be, or not to be, awakened. I have stated many times on this blogsite that the Self, Real ‘I’ or Master (as stated by Gurdjieff, and, as I have realised myself – YES, I DO CLAIM THAT!) is Essence Grown Up. So there are interwoven descriptors – in the end you have to get a feeling of it for yourself. No amount of ‘REB says’ or ‘according to so-and-so’ or ‘in theory’ takes you there!

“Steadfast, haughty, ELECTRICAL, I and this mystery, here we stand”
(Walt Whitman)…..Nigel.

108. Draco - September 26, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

Several times you have retreated to a position where you merely claim that your membership of the Fellowship works for *you*. Or that you just have a different belief system and the other people who post in this forum won’t acknowledge that. I feel that this is a much more defensible position. But I don’t believe that you really mean it. For this to have any value, you need to also acknowledge that it *is* a belief system, that other belief systems can be equally valid, that members can leave the Fellowship because it really doesn’t work for them, or that people can genuinely be damaged by the Fellowship.

In all of your posts you indicate that members leave the Fellowship because they fail. You do not in fact treat limit your claims to an existential position in which your life is simply better for you and you alone because of your membership, but you continually attempt to objectivise the status of the Fellowship and Robert.

Robert himself has commented that ex-members go to the end of the queue for evolution if they leave. He has even commented d in public on specific students who have died after they left the FOF, saying that if only they had stayed in, angels would have taken their souls and put the in Limbo in preparation for the next lifetime. For Robert, and for many hardline members of the Fellowship, salvation depends entirely on being a member of the Fellowship in good standing at the time of death. Is it any wonder that non-students don’t accept his as a valid worldview!

This reminds me of the sad case of Joseph Monteleone. Joseph spent many years in New Orleans making his teaching payments and receiving little in return. Robert put a considerable amount of pressure on Joseph to persuade him to return to Oreogn House. Joseph eventually did so reluctantly. He returned to his previous ‘octave’ but became involved in various political manouvers to reestablish himself as the head of the ‘octave’, which resulted in Robert giving him the boot (‘putting him off salary’ to use the euphemism.) After a couple of weeks Joseph requested to come back to his job and Robert refused. Always a heavy drinker, Joseph hit the bottle even more, had a car accident and died of internal wounds days after the accident. Robert was then very reluctant to allow Joseph’s funeral to be held on the Fellowship property commenting, in public, that he wasn’t sure of Joseph’s relationship to the Fellowship. After many enquiries from Fellowship members Robert caved in and allowed a funeral service.

109. Draco - September 26, 2008

Vinnie,

I don’t believe that you deserve to be banned wither. But I don’t believe you when you say that you have always seen through the Fellowhsip. I believe that it would be very difficult for you to leave. You never have much to say in favor of the Fellowship and yet you still remain in. The only thing that seems to have really impressed you about Robert is that you once heard a story about him squashing a fly.

110. Rear View Mirror - September 26, 2008

Hello Former Student — at about 87,

I sense your heart is in the right place in offering your advice. Note the metaphor in the screen name, Rear View Mirror, which to me suggests the need for “both.” In other words, driving full speed down the highway, embarking decisively on one’s goals with trust in the universe’s plan, but also being aware of what’s behind. Sure, if you look in the mirror too often, you’ll cause an accident. But I see people here who are glancing at their rear-view mirrors occasionally, just as good drivers do, because it helps them arrive safely at their destination.

Obsession is a pretty strong word. The word “addiction” may sometimes apply, although I can think of many addictions that are much worse. But the word “obsession” implies a couple of things: 1) that many of us will step away from our keyboards and carry these topics with us throughout the rest of the day, and 2) that only one topic is being discussed here.

In a sense, none of this blog is even “about” Robert Burton and the Fellowship of Friends. His ego is strong enough that he probably believes it is. But in truth, people are “gathered” here for healing, and to remind ourselves of the folly in believing lies and living in fear. That sounds pretty healthy to me.

Also, many alternative views have been presented here — including philosophies of so-called non-dualism, which I’ve found very interesting, but that were basically smothered by a lot of arguments instigated from a few (one of whom was banned on numerous occasions). I’d like to see more discussion in that direction, and in other directions. But then again, the blog will do what’s it’s going to do.

I’ve spoken to one therapist during the past year — and I was very impressed with him. Like most therapists, he’s well aware of cults, because he’s had other clients walk through the door with the same baggage. When I told him about the blog, his eyes lit up and he didn’t hesitate. He said: “That good. That’s healthy for people.”

Much love to all.

111. spoonful - September 26, 2008

One thing which Robert Burton was very skilled at was using the “teaching” for his own end (no pun intended).

By using the knowledge of octaves and intervals he was able to complete large projects, even if they did involve what could be regarded as slave labour.

I’m sure in relation to this blog, Burton was convinced that given time, there would be a major interval. The blog would disappear and be out of his hair for good.

This is all the more reason to maintain a steady flow of honest, considered and reasoned comments revealing the true nature of the Fellowship of Friends and the actions of it’s leader Robert Burton. Exhibiting behaviour systematic with countless other cults.

So to all you readers out there who are dithering. Join in and keep the voice of the blog fresh and alive…

112. nigel harris price - September 26, 2008

Draco (last two posts)

Since we are talking of ‘ins and outs’ and who gets what – how about this – when I was released, I was ‘brought back’ to the UK by my parents and a month later their telephone area code had a 44 added to it – try it – Budleigh Salterton, Devon, England – 011 44 1395 44 ???? Price by name – PRICE by nature! Did you ever pay for me REB? I even had to give my skills as a craftsman for the precious ‘communion set’ (that I suppose still exists). And the reason for my exit? I knew I could never get out of debt and be able to pay anymore to the FOF coffers. Hence a failed (luckily?) suicide attempt. And one student (K—n B——-k) actually wrote to me after my return to the UK, saying that C-influence saved my life! I think she thought at the time that this would bring me back to the
FOF (in time?). Actually, it brought C-influence out to work with ex-students and humanity. In time there will be a courtroom showdown with Burton being shown up as the worst, and longest lasting ‘false prophet’ of this era. Good thing I have two guardian angels – Whitman and Shakespeare. There have already been two calls to my cell-phone from France and Ireland, with the caller (with an English accent!) ringing off after making sure I was on the other end of the line. Makes you think – don’t it? Anyone want to email me in person – it is aprhys@nigelprice.net. Look forward to hearing from you…..Nigel.

113. Rear View Mirror - September 26, 2008

111. spoonful.

well said.

114. Opus 111 - September 26, 2008

#99

“I underestimated my ability to see clearly…”

I meant to say “I overestimated my ability…”

115. Jomo Piñata - September 26, 2008

Spoonful, you wrote:

By using the knowledge of octaves and intervals [R.] was able to complete large projects, even if they did involve what could be regarded as slave labour.

Give me a break. What knowledge of “octaves” and “intervals.” Look around you. Wherever people have money they can undertake “big projects.” Been to Dubai lately?

http://tinyurl.com/dubai-projects

116. Jomo Piñata - September 26, 2008

Lacuna Piñata, my brother!

You wrote:

I guess I won’t ever convince you I stay in the school because it works for me; it produces the results I came for.

Ergo, you of all people know how to pick a school. You da man!

You give yourself too much credit. “The school” also produces results you are not willing to acknowledge but which someday you may acknowledge in retrospect and, dare I say it, with remorse.

Obedience is a higher law. There would be no such thing as order without obedience. And without order there would be only chaos.

Brother, “chaos” is often used to describe “unpredictability.” Why you need such predictability in your life? I know you had a rough childhood, maybe ordering the coat hangers in the closet did you some good for awhile. But you using a clunky paradigm of chaos v. cosmos.

According to our wiki friends, “The word χάος did not mean “disorder” in classical-period ancient Greece. It meant ‘the primal emptiness, space.’ ” A real zen ring to that, don’t you think?

And Chaos ain’t what it used to be anymore. Everybody needs to know that chaos is a principle of exquisite ordering and extraordinary beauty!

http://techrepublic.com.com/2346-10877_11-56937-7.html

Love,
Jomo

117. nigel harris price - September 26, 2008

Wow! Let it rip, guys! This is a great day for blogging! And, if you’re tuning in, Bruce, this is Soft Serendipity Day. If I do not have control of myself, in these states, then the authorities get it, and the whole point gets lost. Will pop by later…..Nigel.

118. spoonful - September 26, 2008

115. Jomo Piñata – September 26, 2008

Hi Jomo,

Wherever people have money they can undertake “big projects.”
Been to Dubai lately?

Are you referring to Dubya Bush’s big bail out by chance?

119. Rear View Mirror - September 26, 2008

115. Jomo Piñata – September 26, 2008

Give me a break. What knowledge of “octaves” and “intervals.” Look around you. Wherever people have money they can undertake “big projects.” Been to Dubai lately?

http://tinyurl.com/dubai-projects
===========
Jomo, ah yes, those intrepid “conscience beings” are able to “complete” “octaves” and “big projects” because of their divine understanding — and of course spending large amounts of money indiscriminately might also have something to do with it.

One of the more nauseating over-used and misused terms in the FOF was “good householder.” We assigned some sort of deeper wisdom to RB and others for their ability to use funds without blinking an eye.

One myth or fallacy to watch out for: If something beautiful or impressive is created, there must be something benevolent and wise behind it.

Well, no.

By the way, here are two examples of some very BIG “octaves” that Burton didn’t finish: The winery (lots of weeds and rubble) and the “ark.” (never mind whether or not Burton ever actually intended such an enterprise)

By the way, Dubai is one of the most under-reported stories of the last 10 years. The tallest building in the world — in Dubai?! What?! Something strange going on there.

120. Jomo Piñata - September 26, 2008

Hi Spoonful,

Dubai is a place. It is part of the United Arab Emirates.

121. whalerider - September 26, 2008

My guru, the lithe and lovely Christy, who obviously practices what she preaches, begins each yoga class requesting that we first just sit with ourselves quietly and set an intention for our practice that evening, as we can learn to each morning for our day.

We are asked to first check in with ourselves; to close our eyes and begin to detach from the swirling images of the day. “Where is your sense of yourself right now?” she asks. “Find yourself. Is it in the pain down in the small of your back from sitting in an office chair all day? Or is your sense of self in your mind, wrapped up in the shopping list you carry up there? Is it in your heart and pang you might still feel from a comment someone made today or in the loss of a dear friend?

What will be your intention in bringing your body to the brink of pain tonight? How will you choose to use the discomfort you feel in the poses? Will you remember to breathe? Set your intention now in your mind and in your heart and respect your body’s limits. It is you that will have to wake up in your body tomorrow morning.

If your intention is to be kind to your body tonight, embody that kindness and love your body enough to listen to it. Hold the pose only as long as useful for you to exercise that kindness and do so. If your intention tonight is to stretch your limits, holding your pose a little longer than last time, carry your being with you and smile at your pain. Be grateful that you are healthy enough to do yoga tonight.”

When I chant OM, we all vocalize it together in unison, not silently in the mind as separate individuals like with the 30 canine commands, and even though I cannot see them as I have my eyes closed, for a few lingering moments, I feel the resonance of connection with others in the room.

Not bad for 15 dollars a pop and an hour and a half of my time each Wednesday evening.

122. nigel harris price - September 26, 2008

one-two-one whalerider

You’re a real character…..Nige!

123. Another Name - September 26, 2008

Dear Former student,

I am not done with you.
I am not moving on as you can tell.
And I feel good about this.

I question myself why do I just not leave, leave California, the USA, The world? I do not know…It is simply not happening.

Do you know that grieving is an important part of “moving on”. You have not responded yet to the reactions to your writing and I do not even know if you are reading.

If you do and you know who I am why do you not come and sit with me and listen for 30 minutes. Could you do that? Be practical and be words, instead of throwing out judgments?

Could you?

Have you really left the fellowship of friends behind?

Are you on of the six who left in Nov 2006?

124. whalerider - September 26, 2008

Nigel,
It takes one to know one, my friend.

Vinnie,
The joke’s on you.

125. tatyana - September 26, 2008

I want to say thanks to all of you for helping me to get out of the trap of FOF. As of yesterday – I am out!

126. Mick Danger - September 26, 2008

By the way, Dr. Shockley, I much enjoyed the vivisection you performed on Greg. I have a couple of other candidates for your surgical skills. Whalerider, please give the good Doctor another identity clue for DC.

127. fofblogmoderator - September 26, 2008

123 AND 125 are newly moderated.

128. fofblogmoderator - September 26, 2008

Greg tried to get back on the site today. Greg, don’t bother trying- it ain’t gonna happen.

129. spoonful - September 26, 2008

125. tatyana – September 26, 2008

I always wondered what that Walt Whitman line really meant:

“Afoot and light-hearted I take to the open road. Healthy, free, the world before me…”

It wasn’t until after I left the FOF that I really understood.

Good luck for your travels ahead.

130. Bares Reposting - September 26, 2008

AFOOT and light-hearted,
I take to the open road,
Healthy, free, the world before me,
The long brown path before me,
leading wherever I choose.

Henceforth I ask not good-fortune – I myself am good fortune;
Henceforth I whimper no more,
postpone no more, need nothing,
Strong and content,
I travel the open road.

The earth – that is sufficient;
I do not want
the constellations any nearer;
I know they are very well
where they are;
I know they suffice
for those who belong to them.

(Still here I carry
my old delicious burdens;
I carry them, men and women –
I carry them with me
wherever I go;
I swear it is impossible
for me to get rid of them;
I am fill’d with them,
and I will fill them in return.)

You road I enter upon
and look around!
I believe you are not
all that is here;
I believe that much
unseen is also here.

Here the profound
lesson of reception,
neither preference or denial.

Walt Whitman (1819–1892).
Leaves of Grass. 1900.
82. Song of the Open Road

131. Another Name - September 26, 2008

Freedom, freedom, freedom…….

For you Tatyana, Freedom, freedom, freedom, yeaaaaah..

Thanks for letting me know. Many are leaving again, and again. It is nice to hear that the blog and our interactions can make a difference for you and others.

Gives more meaning to my “Why am I still hanging around here””, issue?

132. nigel harris price - September 26, 2008

As I wind down gleeful
From unmedicated times,
The day has spanned
The Universe.

Friends and those
Accepting me;
Newsome
The God within.

(To your Godliness…..Nigel).

133. veramente - September 26, 2008

I want to say thanks to all of you for helping me to get out of the trap of FOF. As of yesterday – I am out!

________
Tatyana, I am happy for you!

134. Bares Reposting - September 26, 2008

O highway I travel!
O public road!
do you say to me,
Do not leave me?
Venture not?
If you leave me,
you are lost?
Do you say,
I am already prepared –
I am well-beaten and undenied –
adhere to me?

O public road!
I say back,
I am not afraid to leave you –
yet I love you;
You express me
better than I can express myself;
You shall be more
to me than my poem.

I think heroic deeds
were all conceiv’d in the open air,
and all great poems also;
I think I could stop here myself,
and do miracles;
(My judgments, thoughts,
I henceforth try by the open air, the road;)
I think whatever I shall meet on the road
I shall like,
and whoever beholds me
shall like me;
I think whoever
I see must be happy.

Walt Whitman (1819–1892).
Leaves of Grass. 1900.
82. Song of the Open Road

135. Mick Danger - September 26, 2008

“The result of present suffering will be freedom and happiness.
It is only after experiencing bondage and misery that the true value of freedom and happiness is really appreciated.
But to bring this suffering to an earlier end, there must be love for friend and foe, goodwill, patience, and forbearance.”
Meher Baba (1932)

136. Bares Reposting - September 26, 2008

Now if a thousand
perfect men were to appear,
it would not amaze me;
Now if a thousand
beautiful forms of women appear’d,
it would not astonish me.

Now I see the secret
of the making of the best persons,
It is to grow in the open air,
and to eat and sleep with the earth.

Here a great
personal deed has room;
A great deed
seizes upon the hearts
of the whole race of men,
Its effusion of strength and will
overwhelms law,
and mocks all authority
and all argument against it.

Here is the test of wisdom;
Wisdom
is not finally tested in schools;
Wisdom
cannot be pass’d
from one having it,
to another not having it;
Wisdom is of the Soul,
is not susceptible of proof,
is its own proof,
Applies to all stages
and objects and qualities,
and is content,
Is the certainty of the reality
and immortality of things,
and the excellence of things;
Something there is
in the float of the sight of things
that provokes it out of the Soul.

Now,
I reëxamine philosophies
and religions,
They may prove well in lecture-rooms,
yet not prove at all
under the spacious clouds,
and along the landscape
and flowing currents.

Here is realization;
Here is a man tallied –
he realizes here
what he has in him;
The past, the future, majesty, love –
if they are vacant of you,
you are vacant of them.

Walt Whitman (1819–1892).
Leaves of Grass. 1900.
82. Song of the Open Road

137. nigel harris price - September 26, 2008

Dear Bares Reposting
You may like to know that I took ‘Leaves of Grass’ with me into town (Exeter, England – my City of Friends) but did not have a chance to read more than a few brief passages because of the communication with, and admiration for my fellow humans. Thank you for reminding of how mighty and all-embracing (maybe an Avatar?) Whitman was. I now post listening to Native American music. And thank you all, today, so much…..Nigel.

138. Vinnie the Fish - September 26, 2008

“”109. Draco – September 26, 2008
Vinnie,
I don’t believe that you deserve to be banned wither. But I don’t believe you when you say that you have always seen through the Fellowhsip. I believe that it would be very difficult for you to leave. You never have much to say in favor of the Fellowship and yet you still remain in. The only thing that seems to have really impressed you about Robert is that you once heard a story about him squashing a fly.

Yes you’re right Drac, Robert has never impressed me, except as a tireless freakshow leader of an unusual group of people who want to evolve and be in higher states of consciousness, which is rare on earth. That’s it. Believe what you like, I believe nothing, I just see what I see, and be what I am.

“21. brucelevy This fuck without a life should be shut down.”
Another brilliantly witty, sassy yet incisive, elegantly refined riposte from the schlev. If you knew what a fantastic life I have, you would feel very sad indeed.

139. elena - September 27, 2008

Bravo Tatyana. It matters to me. It fills me with joy that you are out. Bravo! Welcome to life!
May your and your daughter’s days be filled with sweetness.

*****************************

To think that of all the flowers here
Your true colours are brighter
and yet we run our bets down to the ditch.

Never too late for a good bath
where one gets baptized
is not usually of one’s choice.

My heart is close to yours now,
so close it cannot leave it,
nor does it want to.

Do you understand now
why some dogs have a good fight
before they bring themselves
to play?

Why they bite each other’s hair and
feel each other’s strength without
seriously wounding each other?

Such an honour to feel the outline of your being
From Inside.
May it ran,
ever more free
Even while we cry.

*****************************

I would have given the world for your love
I have given your love for the world.

140. Rear View Mirror - September 27, 2008

Vinnie is here to make fun of the proceedings. He is not sincere.

It’s a bit like John McCain smirking and bobbing up and down over the podium any time Barack Obama makes a strong and convincing statement during tonight’s debate.

I really don’t see the difference between this guy and Greg. And yet we ban Greg? They both want to keep things off balance here — it’s mean-spirited, it’s hateful, but in Vinnie’s it’s hate with a smile. That’s the only difference.

I strongly suggest you ban him if you want to keep the discussion helpful, productive, and seeking the truth. It’s a distraction. He pulls things down to negativity.

141. Rear View Mirror - September 27, 2008

In Vinnie’s case, it’s hate with a smile.

142. Rear View Mirror - September 27, 2008

It bares reposting, Bares Reposting:

Here is the test of wisdom;
Wisdom
is not finally tested in schools;
Wisdom
cannot be pass’d
from one having it,
to another not having it;
Wisdom is of the Soul,
is not susceptible of proof,
is its own proof,
Applies to all stages
and objects and qualities,
and is content,
Is the certainty of the reality
and immortality of things,
and the excellence of things;
Something there is
in the float of the sight of things
that provokes it out of the Soul.

—–

Best wishes all.

143. Yesri Baba - September 27, 2008

110 Rear View Mirror

This site might interest you. It was written by a former Fof student. I don’t know if this is a link, you may have to type it in.

http://www.nonotgod.com/

If it doesn’t work you can go to page 10 of the ‘fellowship of friends discussion’ and I think it is post 91 or there abouts and click on the posters name.

144. Rear View Mirror - September 27, 2008

Yesri Baba 143, thanks.
——-

I have figuratively, and in some ways literally, lost everything in exchange for Nothing (but, According to the Gospel of Luke*, “Sometimes Nothing is just a real cool hand.”).

*From the movie “Cool Hand Luke.”
——–

It’s hard to imagine anyone playing that role other than Paul Newman, who passed away on Friday at age 83.

Paul new man, we do thank you.

145. veramente - September 27, 2008

TO ALL:

This blog has been in existence for a while with ups and downs and I thought one meaningful way to keeping it more alive is for new/old people reading it to come forth with their experiences in the FOF.
Bring up your stories! if you are an ex-member, or sitting on the fence, please tell us about yourself. If you are still in the FOF fully convinced it’s a great place to be in, go ahead too tell us why in concrete terms.
It’s true it takes some courage for some to come here and write, and sometimes people’s responses are maddening, but you get to learn not to care so much about other’s reactions unless there is a strong ring of truth to be examined.

Say it!

146. nigel harris price - September 27, 2008

145 veramente

I did, indeed, post this some time ago, when Elena also requested a history from ex-FOFfers. Here it is again:-

I joined the London Center of the Fellowship in January of 1978, the third student to join there, as far as I can remember. The country house about twenty miles from London (Luxford House) helped with the ‘king of hearts’ effect that was produced by means of the students’ presence. I had no problem with the fine dining (because my mother came from a refined family) and inspirational art that was revered, being at Art School at that time myself, but was worried about my ability to keep up with the payments (when I told my mother I had joined the FOF, she used the phrase “Don’t’ drift!” – she knew that an art-school training required more-than-usual commitment on the part of the student at that school). I saw many students join from in and around London, who quite soon had the chance to visit ‘Renaissance’, as it was then called. There was one student who, on looking back on it now, was a definite target for REB’s sexual leanings, and was shipped over to the property during the summer vacation from his law-college. L—a and P—r B—-p were the center directors at that time and were married in the summer of that year. Although I was quite good at the exercises, I had great trouble with inner-considering. I was only 21 when I joined and had no great experience with adults other than my parents, who were quite strict – actually no great experience with life, period.

My continuation at art college ended with my graduation in July 1979 and I moved to the Hall Farm and did gardening and odd jobs whilst waiting for a lady from the Graduates’ Apprentice Scheme to find me workshop experience. Either she was inefficient at her job or maybe it was the silver crisis looming, but nothing materialised with the Scheme and I was ‘forced’ to move into central London during the cold, wet January of 1980, to look for a workshop myself. I had a few interviews, but was experiencing the first bouts of my ‘lows’ of bi-polar affective disorder due to the fact that I was faced with the impossibility of making enough money for rent and food, let alone teaching payments which had just doubled in December. I ‘folded’ emotionally and had to be rescued by my family from a student’s house and taken back to Farnham in Surrey, where my family doctor prescribed me Valium (which I hated!). The doctor was very kind otherwise and managed to link me up with a silversmith (who had been in the army previously) and I used to go there most afternoons. I tried telephoning G—-d at the Farm about what was happening and he said “Doctors want to keep you asleep – you just have to leave your parents if you want to continue with your evolution”. It took me three months to finally get back to the FOF, leaving the family home while my mother and father were away on holiday. My aim was to do gardening and handiwork again (seven days a week, if necessary) to save up enough money to go to California and seek work in a workshop there. Needless to say, my mother would telephone at intervals (usually at the full-moon) to try to convince me of the error of my ways.

I did not tell my parents that I was going to California and got on the plane in December 1981 and spent Christmas and New Years at Renaissance. The thing that most impressed me was the way the older ladies in the Fellowship would use feminine dominance to make people (myself included) feel stupid and insignificant. And I saw more people than I had expected to see driving flashy cars. Having spent a month at Renaissance, I moved back to the Marin Center and began looking around for precious metal jobs in California. I found one in Calabasas (outside Los Angeles, but on the route 101) and we had to go through the legal proceedings for getting an H-1 visa and then would go on to getting my green card. I signed the financial agreement with the lawyer, not knowing that he was very much incompetent and the employer unscrupulous with regard to its employees (paying them as little as they could get away with – I was paid $7.00 and not given a pay rise during the time I was there). I spent 2 and ½ years at Porter Blanchard Silversmiths (my parents had visited once – I suppose to check on my well-being – and I was warned about going to my brother’s wedding in England after A-n S——–e had been ‘captured’ and deprogrammed) and then found a job opportunity in Palo Alto. This employer said he would get my green card for me but did nothing, as I found out when he dismissed me a year after hiring me. I was staying at the home of C—–a and M—s P—–k during this period and noticed that C—–a had become much more confident in her ‘being’ and had developed a ‘smarty-pants’ attitude to how she viewed life (she even used the phrase “oh well, life goes on”, when M—s left the school after I came back to the UK). With me, after this point, I developed a ‘nose to the grindstone’ attitude to my aim and felt that I would eventually have my own business and make more money, as well as getting married to someone ‘normal’ (if you know what I mean). When this second unscrupulous employer dismissed me, I found an employer in San Francisco, who did not care about the green card and just wanted someone to manage his craft gallery – again, low wages. However I did have many nice commissions and one which led, when I started my own workshop in 1987 in Sausalito, to the Papal Commission. However, with all the costs and debts and employees (2 of them) that I had accrued over 7 years, as well as ‘teaching payments’ I became clinically depressed in June of 1989 and on the 11th of the month (the last day I would financially be in the FOF – symbolic, when you consider that if you ‘leave the school’ you are destined to ‘eternal destruction’) made a serious suicide attempt. However, C—–a
P—–k, at the crucial point, called F—k A—s, who called me and the paramedics were summoned. The whole affair was emotionally and physically messy and my parents were brought over to take me back to the UK. C—–a called me in hospital and said that G—-d had invited me to Renaissance to ‘recover’ – brilliant plan, considering that the financial people and the hospital would be hounding me for payment. J——n C—g said I could go down to Los Angeles to stay with them until I felt better. In actual fact, I stayed depressed for 3 and ½ years when I returned to the UK.

That is the history of my time in the FOF and I can only say it has been the last few years that I have found stability. There are a few encounters with G—-d that stick in my memory – when I was trying to find my way into a workshop in late 1979 and my being was crumbling, I asked him what I should do and he got irritated that I could foresee no clear direction; when I would make meals or play the piano in concerts he would never thank me or congratulate my performance; whenever I would offer an angle from my own experience, he would sniff and turn his back (as perhaps REB would). One student, when I said something like “It depends what you call a good job”, replied with “that is a B influence view”. She was one of those ‘corporate vixens’ and I came across many female students with that role in California. And to end it all, I could never understand how there were so many computer people, headhunters and medical people (the gold alchemy in American medicine promotes high salaries) in the FOF. It seemed like students were talking about essence as a hobby or lifestyle.

Tell me if you want more…..Nigel.

147. rock that boat - September 27, 2008

FOR TATYANA

“He who is brave is free.”
Seneca

148. Draco - September 27, 2008

138. Vinnie the Fish – September 26, 2008

Yes you’re right Drac, Robert has never impressed me, except as a tireless freakshow leader of an unusual group of people who want to evolve and be in higher states of consciousness, which is rare on earth. That’s it. Believe what you like, I believe nothing, I just see what I see, and be what I am.
=======================
Well, I know that there are people who remain in trhe Fellowship but don’t have much respect for Robert, and button their lips about this in public. But what do you make of the new teaching, the keys, the 30 work ‘I’s, the sequence…?

149. vinnie the fish - September 27, 2008

“148. Draco – September 27, 2008
But what do you make of the new teaching, the keys, the 30 work ‘I’s, the sequence…?”

The ‘keys’ are clearly delusional piffle. Some members say the sequence and 30 words work for them, but they’re probably just conforming, and may as well repeat any mantra. People in a conformist mindset could be told to repeat ‘scrambled eggs’ and that would be their holy keys to salvation. Images of scrambled eggs would be their sacred relics from past schools. All this contributes to a marked deterioration in meeting quality for members with a functioning intellect.

150. sharon - September 28, 2008

vinnie:
You have no respect for RB
You don’t use his “teaching” – you consider it “piffle”
You consider meetings to be of poor quality
You cannot be honest publically and use your own name “because you are still a member”
You seem quite drawn to blogging here, and it seems not especially to defend FoF

Why you doing still paying your money to this fraud and calling yourself a “student”, and supporting the bullshit?

I don’t believe it’s because all of your friends are still “in” – so many have left, and besides, there seems to be a fair amount of intermingling nowadays. I don’t believe its to travel around the world and get free or cheap lodging; again so many have left all over the world, and are probably still willing to host you.

Is it just for fun? Doesn’t seem so fun to me.

Is it some sort of self image of being a maverick, not following the crowd? Some loyalty to an institution which introduced you to all these folks that you can have meaningful conversations with? Do you think your meaningful conversations will dwindle if you let your membership in the group lapse?

151. Jomo Piñata - September 28, 2008

” man is essentially a salesman–a remarkably good one–who excels at making people feel special and understood. A con man validates the victim’s desire to believe he has an edge on other people.

It requires avid study of psychology and body language. It’s an amazing paradox–a con man has incredible emotional insight, but without the burden of compassion. He must take an intense interest in other people, complete strangers, and work to understand them, yet remain detached and uninvested. That the plan is to cheat these people and ultimately confirm many of their fears cannot be of concern.”

http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/story/how-to-cheat-at-everything

152. Jomo Piñata - September 28, 2008

That last post should begin, “A con man” . . . .

153. You-me-us-they - September 28, 2008

Hello Vinnie,

I feel you like your “bad boy” role (non comformist identity) and you need a rigid environnement, made of all the S*** you like to describe,
to play it with satisfactory intensity.

“In life” you would disslove in the Ocean…
Good By of Vinnie the self-standing being!!!!!!

154. spoonful - September 28, 2008

146. nigel harris price – September 27, 2008

Hi Nigel,

I remember you well. Sorry I’m not willing to reveal my identity at this time.

Many people went through – and are going through – a lot of shit in the FOF. I have to guard against feelings of remorse for not having been more receptive to others at the time. But I was going through so much crap of my own.

On reflection I recall little “love” to be found in the Fellowship of Friends – either for oneself or others. Instead – secrets, lying and power games to bolster fragile egos.

“It’s a wonder that we still know how to breathe”

155. Another Name - September 28, 2008

I have to guard against feelings of remorse for not having been more receptive to others at the time.

Dear Spoonful

The above makes make curious….why do you have to guard angainstfeelings…feelngs of rremorse. Is going through the grief not the only way out?

I have soo much remorse and grief. Every so often I would say 7-14 days, I go through a new layer of grief/ remorse….

Is this abnormal….can others give me comments how are willing to be kind and understanding…?

So please Vinnie ( and others with fire in their tongue) would you be so kind to not to respond, as I feel very vulnerable at this point?

156. whalerider - September 28, 2008

spoonful:
“I have to guard against feelings of remorse for not having been more receptive to others at the time.”

Why, pray tell?

157. unoanimo - September 28, 2008

Hello Aline ~

You wrote ~

“Unoanimo, Skeptical optimist, Anna, Old fish in the sea, Veronicapoe, Cake Please, More history needed, Wake up little Suzy wake up, Janna,Elena…………………………………………………..
Where are you?
Take your pen, please, one more time, to sign the petition.”
__________________

Not to fret; I’m there (look closer)… In more ways than one.

:.)

158. nigel harris price - September 28, 2008

154 spoonful

Thanks for connecting. We all tread a path and that path is as endless as it was beginningless……………………………….Nigel.

159. nigel harris price - September 28, 2008

157 unoanimo

How can we ‘sign’ the petition? In other words, I have something to add. Reply, please…..Nigel.

160. Daily Cardiac - September 28, 2008

Draco – 108:

“Several times you have retreated to a position where you merely claim that your membership of the Fellowship works for *you*. Or that you just have a different belief system and the other people who post in this forum won’t acknowledge that. I feel that this is a much more defensible position. But I don’t believe that you really mean it.”

Why do you think I would say it if I didn’t mean it? Do you think I am less honest or sincere than ex members who come here and criticize the FoF?

Draco – “ For this to have any value, you need to also acknowledge that it *is* a belief system, that other belief systems can be equally valid, that members can leave the Fellowship because it really doesn’t work for them, or that people can genuinely be damaged by the Fellowship.”

Every system is a belief system for someone; some here believe in non dualism a few still selectively cite the “The Fourth Way”, some believe in Zen or whatever. Almost all the posters here at one time believed in “The Fourth Way.” I happen to still believe in that system. I happen to still believe that for men and women in this day and age it is the most practical and effective way to achieve enlightenment. I also don’t believe the FOF has abandoned the Fourth Way, but merely distilled it. So for me it is the most valid way, or the only valid way; in the sense that I have no reason to continue searching. When you’ve found what you went looking for the search is over.

If someone is not satisfied with what they’ve found they should keep looking.

As far as people being “genuinely damaged by the Fellowship” I do not believe that is the case. No one is forced to do anything against their will in the FoF. People have to make enormous efforts just to stay in the FoF. If someone stays against their better judgment, they have nothing to blame but their own inability to follow their heart.

Draco – “In all of your posts you indicate that members leave the Fellowship because they fail. You do not in fact treat limit your claims to an existential position in which your life is simply better for you and you alone because of your membership, but you continually attempt to objectivise the status of the Fellowship and Robert.”

It sounds like you haven’t really paid attention to how I am expressing myself. I have not said or suggested that anyone failed for leaving the Fellowship. On the contrary, I have said several times the FoF is not for everyone. At most I have offered my own opinion as to why the FoF may not have worked for them. Generally I am commenting on “my” reality, what my experience in the FoF has been like. But if I say my time in the FoF has been an extremely positive experience, then some ex members may project I am attacking them simply by offering a different viewpoint but it’s not the case. I’m not considering their experience because I don’t know their experience. I’m not living under their skin, just my own.

I think ex members are more inclined to “objectify the status of the Fellowship and Robert” than I am. They seem to be more threatened by my words than I am by theirs. Proof of this is the rage, the abusive language, the personal attacks. People with the truth on their side don’t react this way when encountered with differing viewpoints. The truth has a calming effect. People with the truth on their side feel bemused more than threatened when someone challenges their beliefs.

Draco – “For Robert, and for many hard line members of the Fellowship, salvation depends entirely on being a member of the Fellowship in good standing at the time of death. Is it any wonder that non-students don’t accept his as a valid worldview!”

Here is the world view of many ex members – you tell me how valid it is.

Ex member – “I was a sincere seeker of truth. I went looking for a conscious school but instead I found the opposite of that, a destructive cult. To this day I don’t why I could not distinguish one from the other but that’s what happened. I also don’t know why the powers that be would trick such a sincere person like me. Isn’t it said “seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given”? Well, I joined anyway and stayed.

After a few years I realized something was amiss but by that time I met some really great people (I’m still not sure how that creepy cult attracted so many wonderful people but that’s what happened) and even though it was costing me 30% of my income, not to mention all the late night hours washing pots, I stayed. To be perfectly honest, I might have been hedging my bet a little because the crazy cult leader predicted that California would fall into the sea in 1998 and there would be a nuclear holocaust in 2006. Even sociopaths can luck out once in a while so why take a chance, why not just wait it out. So after 2006 most of my good friends were leaving anyway so there was no point to stay any longer and I left.

Interestingly, something really beneficial happened after I left. It seems like I acquired the ability to tell only the unbiased truth about Robert Burton and the FoF, in spite of my bad experiences in the cult and my deep loathing for the organization. Now I can help others know the truth because I seem incapable of distorting any portion of my comments about FoF on this blog. I appear to be equally incapable of contradicting myself, having any ulterior motives or exaggerating anything I say. You don’t have to take my word for it, you can judge by all the other ex members comments as, when it comes to criticizing the FoF we are all in agreement, down to the slightest detail. This is proof I’m right, otherwise why would all the others agree with me?

I also seem to have acquired the ability to know that all current students lie about what they say; they only spew out the company line and defend the indefensible. The other ex members all agree with me on this point also so, this too, must be true. I know what you’re thinking; of the 20,000 or so comments on the blog, the vast majority by ex members, it’s preposterous to claim that all statements by ex members are entirely true and all statements by current members are entirely false, but check it out for your self. That’s exactly what’s being suggested on the blog. And all of us ex members can’t be wrong, can we?

161. unoanimo - September 28, 2008

Hello Nigel ~

There are links to the petition at the top of this PART 51…

http://www.petitiononline.com/djindjin/petition.html

And ‘Jack’ is your contact person for adding additional stories; though I believe that quota has been capped; not sure though…

Be well

162. nigel harris price - September 28, 2008

Daily Cardiac

You have finally ‘gotten my goat’ to a point where I must respond. I had no idea what higher states were, when I joined the FOF. There is the story/quote that a member asked REB what consciousness was like, and he responded “The agony and the ecstasy”. That is true for me, with my disorder, being an ex-member and having the feeling that I have evolved through all my experiences. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CLAIM THAT CONSCIOUSNESS BELONGS ONLY IN THE FOF, AND, IF YOU DO, YOU HAVE GONE VERY LITTLE ALONG THE WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT…..Nigel.

163. unoanimo - September 28, 2008

Hello Daily Cardiac ~

You wrote ~

“As far as people being “genuinely damaged by the Fellowship” I do not believe that is the case. No one is forced to do anything against their will in the FoF. People have to make enormous efforts just to stay in the FoF. If someone stays against their better judgment, they have nothing to blame but their own inability to follow their heart.”
_____________________

Do you mean the same people who are being convinced that they “have no will” and that “man cannot do”? I would say that your idea of ‘force’ needs a little Miracle One oiling… People who are making ‘enormous efforts’ to stay in a place ‘against their better judgment’… (?) I would say that in between your writing ‘I do not believe this to be the case’ (in regards to people being genuinely damaged by the FOF) and then writing ‘nothing to blame but…’, there’s a contradiction worth taking a closer look at… IMO, if people are being trained to blame themselves for knocking on Conscience’s door (aka, “better judgment”), then this would qualify as ‘genuinely refurbished’?

And about that cutting in line thing at the Oregon House Grocery; I used to do that when getting gas until C-Influence (in the form of a saucy mountain man) gave me that look; you know the ‘look’, that ‘look of looks’ that squeezes your solar plexus and makes orange juice and then cracks four raw eggs and stirs…

Rocky has nothing on us ex-FOF’ers…

164. nigel harris price - September 28, 2008

161 unoanimo

Thank you for the link – petition duly signed. Actually, my story has gone to Ford Greene at the Hub Law Offices already, as somewhat of an ‘undue demand litigation claim’. I was financially ‘fleeced’ by the FOF, leading to the suicide attempt and the successive psychotic periods. I feel I am now in a position to give evidence in court, if necessary, as to the claims of REB to be a ‘spiritual leader’…..Nigel.

165. aline - September 28, 2008

#157 unoanimo,
OK, I recognize your style.
good.
Aline

166. Another Name - September 28, 2008

Guys and Girls

Enjoy this one

Dance into your heart and soul
Get out of your mind
Twirl like a derwish dancer
Through your life
And live, love, dance as never before

167. Another Name - September 28, 2008

I apologize to all the people who have worked on the petition..I never ook time to look at it. Till this MORNING…..

Amazing what a job and what a chore and persisitent and consistency.

My hat off
My heart is overwhelmed with gratefulness
My tears are flowing
Thanks

This leads me to the next question to all the people here on the blog and not blog.
Why would we not sign it, why give me 5 why’s, why not……
The message is so strong and convincing….why?

http://www.petitiononline.com/djindjin/petition-sign.html

168. dragon - September 28, 2008

Hello Dear Carpet Manufacturers,

This post: a text of Hans-Peter Duerr.

The last sentence is the best.

Another expression of: Tat tvam asi!

———————————————————

Beyond the Einstein-Russell Manifesto of 1955: The Potsdam Denkschrift for the 21st Century
DK Matai – August 30, 2006
“Beyond the Einstein-Russell Manifesto of 1955: The Potsdam Denkschrift” is probably one of the most thought provoking and meaningful think-pieces of our time, which has been developed by the world famous nuclear-physicist and Alternative Nobel Prize Winner Prof Hans-Peter Duerr based in Munich, Germany.

Prof Hans-Peter Duerr
The Potsdam Denkschrift’s ground-breaking thoughts — based on the “ab initio” deeper understanding of modern science in general and nuclear physics in particular over a century — are particularly relevant in today’s day and age.
All of the 10 complex global challenges of the 21st century identified — climate chaos, radical poverty, organised crime, extremism, informatics, nanotechnology, robotics, genetics, artificial intelligence and financial systems — depend on the way humankind thinks and acts to address and to begin to resolve some of the seemingly intractable yet interlinked confrontations. As those inherent confrontations accelerate and feed off each other’s momentum they possess the capability to damage and to disrupt the delicate global dynamic equilibrium. Faced with this unpalatable prospect for humanity in the coming two to three decades or less, it is necessary to rethink strategically because “He who is not busy being born, is busy dying.”
The Potsdam Denkschrift is a declaration of Hans-Peter Dürr, J Daniel Dahm and Rudolf zur Lippe under the patronage of the Federation of German Scientists — Vereinigung Deutscher Wissenschaftler (VDW). It is the basis of the abstract condensed version, the Potsdam Manifesto‚ “We have to learn to think in a new way” which has been signed by more than 130 scientists and distinguished personalities from across the world.
Prof Hans-Peter Dürr is a well-known German nuclear physicist and philosopher. He worked closely with the nuclear physicist, Edward Teller, and the inventor of quantum mechanics, Werner Heisenberg. He is a former Director of the Max-Planck-Institute of Physics, Munich, whose first Director was Albert Einstein. In 1987 he founded the Global Challenges Network, a global network for sustainable development initiatives and socially responsible uses of technology. He is Chairman of the German Association of Scientists and is a key advocate of the development of a holistic science in the 21st century. He is the author of many scientific papers and books. In 1987 he received the Right Livelihood Award, the Alternative Nobel Prize. In 2002 the Cambridge Biographical Centre proclaimed him International Scientist of the Year. In 2004 he received the highest Award of the German Government, Das Grosse Bundesverdienstkreuz. He is a Founding Councillor of The World Future Council, on whose advisory board I also sit. His Potsdam Denkschrift follows within a personalised letter:
Dear DK
Re: Beyond the Einstein-Russell Manifesto of 1955: The Potsdam Denkschrift
I was asked by my science friends to write a kind of an “update” of the old Einstein-Russell Manifesto of 1955, an impossible task in view of the multitude of the present problems beyond the nuclear weapons of mass destruction of the old time.
I offered to write something more radical than “to think in a new way” and more “to think beyond present thinking” on the basis of the radical change of our world view due to the revolutionary insights of modern science at the beginning of the last century: Max Planck, Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, Paul Dirac, Wolfgang Pauli…
Einstein, as you know, was the first director of the Max-Planck-Institute for Physics. I worked for nearly twenty years with Heisenberg at the same institute.
I submit The Potsdam “DENKSCHRIFT”:
“All, equally, are in peril, and, if the peril is understood,
there is hope that they may collectively avert it.
We have to learn to think in a new way.”
From the Russell-Einstein Manifesto, 1955
The introductory title of The Potsdam Denkschrift has been taken from the important sentence in the “Russell-Einstein Manifesto 1955”, which was signed by Einstein only two weeks before he died. “Denkschrift” translated into English would be “Memorandum” referring more to “Thinking back”, rather than what it actually is, a “Thinking ahead or beyond” which is contained precisely in the German word — hence we left it un-translated.
I. Starting Situation
Justifiably worried that Hitler’s Germany could get the upper hand in building an atomic bomb, the convinced pacifist Einstein wrote a letter to President Roosevelt shortly before the beginning of World War II, adding his voice to what led the President to initiate America’s Manhattan Project. The resulting fission bombs were used sixty years ago in 1945, soon after Germany’s capitulation, against Japan. In great consternation, Einstein called for a fundamental political re-orientation to make wars impossible in the future. But without visible success. The development of fusion bombs (hydrogen bombs) increased the deadly potential of nuclear weapons of mass destruction to almost unlimited dimensions and, in the escalating confrontation between East and West, became a mortal danger for all of humanity.
Fifty years ago, prominent oppositional movements formed all over the world to stop this arms race. Bertrand Russell formulated a manifesto, and Einstein signed it shortly before his death. It was an ultimatum calling for a new way of thinking that would ensure that, in the future, war would be completely banned as an instrument of politics and conflict resolution.
What has become of this urgent call today, fifty years later? In particular, it awakened groups of citizens, a civil society, that gained attention and launched its own international initiatives all over the world as the peace movement, later as the environmental and third-world movement, and as the cultural-critical women’s movement. In many ways, they courageously practiced a new way of thinking. They thus took outstanding part in the exemplary process of reconciliation among the once bitterly hostile European nations and in particular, to a much greater degree than yet publicly acknowledged, in the surprisingly successful non-violent ending of the Cold War. Their insights and experience are the fertile soil for this Denkschrift. That the triumphant authoritative political powers learned nothing and did not want to learn anything from this peaceful change was frighteningly evident in later developments, in which none of the many hoped-for, trailblazing options were taken up.
The history of the last fifty years has clearly showed that military strategy, with its preliminary culmination in weapons of mass destruction –- and today, not only nuclear, but also chemical and biological WMDs, as well as their special use against sensitive targets –- is only an especially spectacular, but in no way the only or most important realization of much more far-reaching and deeper-based power strategies with new military, political, and above all economic components. These have led to an escalation of structural violence and terrorist reactions.
Probably the most important factor today is the structural violence exerted by the highly-centralized physical economy and by the financial industry, which is closely networked around the world. Economic power has managed to seize primacy over military power and to make the latter its complete servant, with equally deleterious consequences. And this has not happened coincidentally, but consciously and intentionally. For it is an unfortunately widespread opinion that a growing concentration of power is a precondition for a reliable world order, whereby that order’s neutral international anchoring, formerly regarded as an indispensable prerequisite, is in danger of becoming meaningless.
Structural violence in economic life arises, first, from the power interests of the hegemonic powers and, second, from the worldwide hegemony of international finance capital, which must not be equated with the market economy. The geopolitical, socio-cultural, and economic power strategies, as well as the unlimited expansion strategies of modern business and production, necessarily provoke and create incompatibilities with the fundamental spatial and material limits of our biosphere. These are expressed in life-threatening ways in the changes in micro- and macroclimatic conditions around the world, in the deterioration of soils and vegetation complexes over broad regions, in damage to the hydrosphere that is irreversible on a human scale, and in the rapid, destructive exploitation of exhaustible mineral and energy resources. Particularly dangerous thereby is the destruction of biodiversity, which is proceeding at an accelerated rate seemingly unique in the history of the earth. For the annihilation of the bio-ecological diversity of whole complexes of life is an irreversible loss for the geo-biosphere and, within it, above all for us humans as the “top rider” of the meta-stable pyramid of life and the final link in a long and complicatedly branched food chain. But the variety of human ways of life and the treasure store of the cultures are being similarly irreversibly reduced –- and with their loss, the spectrum of possible future strategies and lifestyles, necessary changes and developments, is narrowed and diminished.
But such recognitions remain superficial, because they reveal only dangerous symptoms and existence-threatening syndromes, which must be specifically corrected in the short term and healed in the long term. The investigation and uncovering of the deeper causes of these dangerous developments has been neglected. The increasingly globally adapted power strategies and the image of humankind associated with them are closely tied to our materialistic-mechanistic worldview, which is meanwhile favoured all over the world, and with the way of thinking that results from the spirit of doing and that provokes action in conformity with power considerations. This view of the world, in which the world resembles a material clockwork operating in accordance with strict laws (also called the classical Cartesian-Newtonian worldview) is not the real cause, of course. It is itself the result of and legitimisation for a historical development in which patriarchal hierarchies and power-seeking organizational strategies, as well as a narrow monotheism, play an important role in separating humankind from the realm of nature. But the strategies believing that there are no limits to what can be done, are based on the increase in the precision of these materialistic-mechanistic ideas of the world and on the thereby enabled successful scientific-technological development of our civilization. The (controllable) instrumental knowledge necessary for this is provided primarily by the empirical sciences, which, in the context of this worldview, orient themselves toward the fundamental principle of an asserted causal closure of the material world as “reality” (a reality of objects) and which project it (especially via the political, social, and economic sciences) onto all aspects and processes of life on earth. This in turn leads to forms of action whose results seem, in the short term, strictly to legitimise this reality.
The full version of “Beyond the Einstein-Russell Manifesto of 1955: The Potsdam Denkschrift” is available by clicking here:

http://www.mi2g.com/cgi/mi2g/frameset.php?pageid=http%3A//www.mi2g.com/cgi/mi2g/press/300806.php

I am life

The ground on which this new sustainable, organismic cultural diversity is to grow has been well prepared. For why do political and economic decision-makers invoke freedom and democracy, when most of them seem to have abandoned this trust in a fundamental commonality? Because they secretly know and feel that deeply anchored in people’s hearts is the longing to strengthen their own physical, emotional, and spiritual abilities and to further develop their personalities; and this is possible only in relative freedom. But the great majority of people do not want to use their empowerment against others who are trying to do similar things, but rather, together with them and motivated by the deeper connection, to create a more comprehensive commonality on a higher level. A new, but in truth long-proven view of the human beings is becoming visible, one that assumes a person capable of love and empathy. We should not be misled by the excesses of our modern civilization. The human being is capable of much more than being an aggressive, avaricious “wolf” (in Thomas Hobbes’ sense): freedom to strengthen oneself, not for the sake of victory in struggle against the others, but responsible for strengthening one’s own contribution in favour of the whole. Co-liberality is needed to achieve an optimal, vibrant coexistence in the sense implied by Albert Schweitzer’s remark, ”I am life that wants to live, amid life that wants to live.”

All this may sound unachievably utopian. But we should remember: The mere fact of our existence — as people today should show us — that we are the successful result of a similar development that has already gone on for billions of years. We must continue to create new knowledge that allows more vibrancy to flower. We can trust that this power is effective in us.

For omni-connectedness, which we can call love and which germinates from vitality, is inherent in the core of us and of everything else.
Sincerely and with warm regards

Hans-Peter Dürr

169. arthur - September 28, 2008

Unoanimo,

Am “blind as a bat”. Couldnt see you even once.

Dragon,

About those “Healing Plant” links you submitted on page 50. If you are interested and belong to GF there is a group starting up on those kinds of “things”. Wanna join?

170. dragon - September 28, 2008

I am working with many plants.
I am in GF but I “belong” to my friends.
These friends are Non FOF (not Ex not Members) we are ordinary. If this is no problem for you I think I could join Arthur.
Thank you for the invitation.

See you tomorrow evening!

171. dragon - September 28, 2008

Arthur,

You got the greetings from S—e!

Errare humanum est!

No problem for me!

172. dragon - September 28, 2008

Arthur,

some plants are a Gordian knot.
If you cut it…… extremly car_f__

Make contact with S___e

173. ton - September 28, 2008

dragon around 167…

“I am working with many plants.”

and the plants are working with you…

174. arthur - September 28, 2008

Dragon, (167,168 &169),

Gordian knots I stay away from, I have no clue what you are talking about, so Ignoscere Divinum.

175. unoanimo - September 29, 2008

Arthur ~ Smoky times, lets be quartz… Keep your loving enthusiasm flowing; if there are any ‘Gordian knots’ it’s our baby selves holding, having played too long with god’s bi-focal-chain and being reflected by a breathing mirror back into a quiet one’s nest for silver-safe-keeping and not the plant… I am not sure, maybe Dragon’s just being draconian; we all know something about that ‘knot’: yes? Gordian knots are good, particularly if your sword has just got back from the town smithy’s monthly sharpening festival and the inner-Asia needs some ‘attention’.

Did you start your shaman garden yet? There’s probably San Pedro growing in your back yard!

176. ton - September 29, 2008

uno around 173,
“I am not sure, maybe Dragon’s just being draconian; we all know something about that ‘knot’: yes? Gordian knots are good, particularly if your sword has just got back from the town smithy’s monthly sharpening…”

Dragon expressed a way of relating to the plants that struck me as being a bit “draconian” — there is after all symbiosis to consider….
——————————————————–

Otherwise and in general, the sword hangs above “us” all… but some more than others…. (you will know what I mean).

“Damocles very much enjoyed being waited upon like a king. Only at the end of the meal did he look up and notice a sharpened sword hanging by a single horsehair directly above his head. Immediately, he lost all taste for the fine foods and beautiful boys and asked leave, saying he no longer wanted to be so fortunate”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damocles

177. arthur - September 29, 2008

unoanimo (173),

The garden was delayed because of an illness that required “life-support”. I’m in limbo about many things right now.

The cactus you mentioned jumped off the page because that was the first plant I considered ordering.

In the meantime?

178. fofblogmoderator - September 29, 2008

166 & 168 are newly moderated

179. nigel harris price - September 29, 2008

Last night I watched a very violent, but, othrewise, beautifully crafted Spanish film, ‘Pan’s Labrynth’. It seemed to portray how, among all the violence and fragmentation of Life, it is possible, by the protection of Innocence, even if that leads to Oneself losing One’s Physical Life, to gain Immortality. Not for the squeamish!…..Nigel.

180. paulshabram - September 29, 2008

DC ~61
“We exist in a living universe; nothing is static. It is right for some of us to leave and right for some of us to stay. On the other hand some who left probably should have stayed and some who stayed should have left. Some also have returned. Schools are complex organisms. But one thing is possible for all and that is to be at peace with our choices.”

How is this possible if it’s “a play”?

181. Ellen - September 29, 2008

#97, Daily Cardiac,

You seem to be crystallized in “obedience”. But is that a desirable condition for an aspirant? You seem to think so. Thus, if so, how?

You say:
“Obedience is a higher law. There would be no such thing as order without obedience. And without order there would be only chaos.”
And:
“Obedience is a revered and time tested principle in the teacher/student relationship. Just because a person loses faith in the FoF or in teachers in general it does not at all change or alter the value of this principle. No person’s leaving the FoF changes centuries of spiritual tradition.”

Better check your references there, boy. A formatory, fear-based understanding of that one can keep you spinning your wheels in an egoic cul-de-sac for the rest of your born days (fine with me, it’s your life) – which is also where those “8-billion-sleeping-life-machines”-who-have-not-realized-the-self reside: sleeping, eating, working, making love, praying, joining schools, doing sequences, remembering but not realizing, obeying teachers, etc… Better check more precisely about the role of the teacher/student, especially in reference to enlightenment. Who is obedient to whom? Who surrenders to whom? How and why?

For example, there is an obedience where one person surrenders his/her egoic desires and fears to another person’s egoic desires and fears, which can lead to pathology, tyrrany and tragedy. (See post #79: an extreme example of taking orders indirectly from a Hasnamuss, and directly, though invisibly, from a collective ego) In personal relationships, business relationships, and political relations, such sleep is unfortunately quite common.

And there is another kind of obedience where one person surrenders his/her own egoic desires and fears to his/her own higher centers. One example is Whale Riders’s recent post #83:
“‘How deeply did you let go?’
…I thought: how on god’s green earth do you let go of loss? What am I holding onto if it’s already gone? Of course, then I heard the Buddha speak in my heart and say: let go of the illusion that you had anything to begin with. That one sent shivers down my spine.”
There are also many similar, fine quotations from Walt Whitman just on this page alone.

So, this dark night of the soul transition of the aspirant is often accompanied by a trusted escort/teacher/guide, who himself/herself is totally free from self seeking egoic impulses. At this critical juncture of disillusion, of dissolving, of total release into the seeming chaos of divine openness, any guide whose own motives are less than 100% pure also means that the results will miss the mark (sin). Why trust in a guide who does not know where to go? Any guide who does not fully and lovingly release you unto your own higher centers is indeed a charlatan, a false guru.

And I’m not interested in arguing with you about Robert Burton’s well documented capacities for filling his own mouth, anus, pocket or any other orifice he can manage with the sacrifices of his “beloved students”. I’m only interested in getting you to think and feel for yourself. Stop protecting and start realizing your own loving essential connection (not disconnection) with the rest of life.

As ever, good luck to you…

182. Mick Danger - September 29, 2008

“Your friend does not know his own mind. To say that the Prophet of Arabia will lead all Muslims to paradise is beggarliness that beggars description. He says that one must deserve heaven, but at the same time believes that his Prophet will lead him to heaven; even though he is not fit for it. His case is hopeless. To preach what one does not practise is hypocrisy in its worst form.”

183. Jomo Piñata - September 29, 2008

So, this dark night of the soul transition of the aspirant is often accompanied by a trusted escort/teacher/guide, who himself/herself is totally free from self seeking egoic impulses. At this critical juncture of disillusion, of dissolving, of total release into the seeming chaos of divine openness, any guide whose own motives are less than 100% pure also means that the results will miss the mark (sin).

Ellen I think the world of you; but the construct of someone who has become “totally free from self seeking egoic impulses” is just that: a construct. Bestaat niet. N’existe pas. Non esiste. No existe. Existiert nicht. Не существует. There is no such person.

That is not to say that loving people who can help us don’t exist; rather, it is to say that the notion that ANYone exists who has become “totally free from self seeking egoic impulses” is an ILLUSION.

It is an illusion that reinforces our own inner division into two: One part of us strives towards an unrealizable ideal (“good self”), while one part of us (“bad self”) cannot ever achieve that ideal because it is by its very nature unrealizable. We are not assisted to realize the wholeness that already belongs to us by methods that reinforce inner dividedness. In my humble opinion.

184. Another Name - September 29, 2008

Please go and look at the petition and be well informed before you sign, so you can have an informed decision, a choice.

http://www.petitiononline.com/djindjin/petition.html

Enjoy yourself and have a great Monday.

Why would we not sign? Any constructive feed back on this subject?

When words are just walls and expression and actions are needed…

185. Ellen - September 29, 2008

Jomo bro, kussy kussy, how you do try to keep me in line!

We toss around words here, and concepts, too, but reality is beyond the mind. It really is! So forgive me if I pushed the “totally” & “100%” words too far, yet nevertheless, I do think it is possible, it’s just not something a dualistic mind can conceive of. And of course, our Fellowship experience has left many people so thoroughly jaded, there is a double bind.

So, I do beg to differ, (and I think you will excuse me). It is possible yet very rare. I’ll put you on my A.P. mailing list, OK? Then you can see for yourself.

Kussy, kussy 😉

186. Another Name - September 29, 2008

Please all of you,

Could anybody answer my question why not to sign the petition?
Have a look form your point of you and share it with me please.
So I have a better understanding what to do or not…..

Please would you?

http://www.petitiononline.com/djindjin/petition-sign.html

187. Draco - September 29, 2008

160. Daily Cardiac – September 28, 2008
Draco – 108:
Me earlier: “Several times you have retreated to a position where you merely claim that your membership of the Fellowship works for *you*. Or that you just have a different belief system and the other people who post in this forum won’t acknowledge that. I feel that this is a much more defensible position. But I don’t believe that you really mean it.”

DC: Why do you think I would say it if I didn’t mean it? Do you think I am less honest or sincere than ex members who come here and criticize the FoF?
Sad to say, I do think that you are less honest and sincere than most of the ex-members on this board. I see you constantly skirting around difficult issues and resorting to certain positions merely as a mode of argumentation.

Me earlier- “ For this to have any value, you need to also acknowledge that it *is* a belief system, that other belief systems can be equally valid, that members can leave the Fellowship because it really doesn’t work for them, or that people can genuinely be damaged by the Fellowship.”

DC: “Every system is a belief system for someone; some here believe in non dualism a few still selectively cite the “The Fourth Way”, some believe in Zen or whatever. Almost all the posters here at one time believed in “The Fourth Way.” I happen to still believe in that system. I happen to still believe that for men and women in this day and age it is the most practical and effective way to achieve enlightenment. I also don’t believe the FOF has abandoned the Fourth Way, but merely distilled it. So for me it is the most valid way, or the only valid way; in the sense that I have no reason to continue searching. When you’ve found what you went looking for the search is over.
If someone is not satisfied with what they’ve found they should keep looking.”

Me: That last sentence is fair enough. But there’s something tricky going on with this idea of “the Fourth Way”.

DC: As far as people being “genuinely damaged by the Fellowship” I do not believe that is the case. No one is forced to do anything against their will in the FoF. People have to make enormous efforts just to stay in the FoF. If someone stays against their better judgment, they have nothing to blame but their own inability to follow their heart.
Me: Few ex-members or cult investigators would claim that members are “forced” to stay in the FOF or to do anything against their will, so this is a straw man. Rather, people join because of their wish to practice the ideas found in Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and other writers, and find that in the process of doing this within the Fellowship they are gradually encouraged to weaken their bonds with non-members, to invest more and more time in the Fellowship, to contribute ever larger amounts of money. Members do indeed have to make enormous efforts to make payments and be involved to the extent to which they will be considered “good students”. If Fellowship members don’t keep their criticisms of Robert quiet, don’t keep attending events, don’t make their payments, they will thrown out and ostracized and will find that the belief system which previously allowed them to consider themselves to be among the saved will now label them as damned. It is far harder to leave and too extricate one’s personal life and one’s sense of personal and spiritual worth from the Fellowship. I know that it is more difficult to leave than to stay in because I have done both. You don’t know because you haven’t been through the process of leaving.

Me earlier – “In all of your posts you indicate that members leave the Fellowship because they fail. You do not in fact treat limit your claims to an existential position in which your life is simply better for you and you alone because of your membership, but you continually attempt to objectivise the status of the Fellowship and Robert.”

DC: It sounds like you haven’t really paid attention to how I am expressing myself. I have not said or suggested that anyone failed for leaving the Fellowship. On the contrary, I have said several times the FoF is not for everyone. At most I have offered my own opinion as to why the FoF may not have worked for them. Generally I am commenting on “my” reality, what my experience in the FoF has been like. But if I say my time in the FoF has been an extremely positive experience, then some ex members may project I am attacking them simply by offering a different viewpoint but it’s not the case. I’m not considering their experience because I don’t know their experience. I’m not living under their skin, just my own.

Me: It is the view of Robert, which has a strong effect on the culture within the Fellowship, that there is no good reason to leave the Fellowship, that ex-members go to the end of the queue for evolution (of all the people in the entire history of the world), that their souls go to the Moon, that angels will take the souls of FOF members at death and take them to Limbo in preparation for the next life, but that angels won’t take ex-members. If you don’t believe that, I’m glad, because the entire ridiculous set of ill-thought-out concepts are a straightforward control system. But in your use of words and your general tone, I don’t see any indication that you believe that people can or do leave the FOF and find a genuine teaching or continue developing by themselves in a way which you consider genuine . Or can leave the FOF because it had a bad effect on them. You remind me of the Catholic who said to the Protestant, “We both do God’s work, you in your way and I in his.” When hardline FOF members say “It was right for X to leave” they usually mean, “the poor guy’s going to the Moon, but at least he’s happier and we’re glad to be rid of him.”

DC: I think ex members are more inclined to “objectify the status of the Fellowship and Robert” than I am. They seem to be more threatened by my words than I am by theirs. Proof of this is the rage, the abusive language, the personal attacks. People with the truth on their side don’t react this way when encountered with differing viewpoints. The truth has a calming effect. People with the truth on their side feel bemused more than threatened when someone challenges their beliefs.

Me: Did you ever read Beelzebub’s Tales? In BT, self-calming is way of squashing conscience. If someone responds angrily or abusively to you (and I don’t enjoy the “you’re an asshole” interchanges either) it is not an indication that you are right. I find your statements about other people very interesting. You can’t get into their skins, you can’t understand what they think or feel, if they’re angry at you it must be because you have truth on your side… You believe that people can only be misled or coerced through force. I don’t see much understanding of human psychology there.

Draco – “For Robert, and for many hard line members of the Fellowship, salvation depends entirely on being a member of the Fellowship in good standing at the time of death. Is it any wonder that non-students don’t accept his as a valid worldview!”

DC: Here is the world view of many ex members – you tell me how valid it is.

Me: You following invention is a combination of a strawman argument (in that you made up a statement rather than using a genuine one) and reductio ad absurdum. But I’ll go through it anyway, and I’ll insert my own experience in comparison with your invented statements.

DC’s Ex member – “I was a sincere seeker of truth. I went looking for a conscious school but instead I found the opposite of that, a destructive cult. To this day I don’t why I could not distinguish one from the other but that’s what happened. I also don’t know why the powers that be would trick such a sincere person like me. Isn’t it said “seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given”? Well, I joined anyway and stayed.

Me: Yes, many if not most people who join are sincere seekers. I joined when I was very young and I was certainly sincere. Ii had never been in any other spiritual group and none of my friends were interested in spiritual matters. From trying to practice the ideas in the work books I experienced higher states, I understood myself a little better, I found a worldview that made sense of life for me. When I joined I met people who were outside of my fairly narrow range of experience and met genuine seekers for the first time. Many of the ideas became more practical for me within the FOF, I was able to see myself more in being in contact with other people and by being involved with center tasks, and Robert, who I knew only from a couple of dinners and from the stories told by older students, was an inspirational figurehead.

DC’s Ex member – After a few years I realized something was amiss but by that time I met some really great people (I’m still not sure how that creepy cult attracted so many wonderful people but that’s what happened) and even though it was costing me 30% of my income, not to mention all the late night hours washing pots, I stayed. To be perfectly honest, I might have been hedging my bet a little because the crazy cult leader predicted that California would fall into the sea in 1998 and there would be a nuclear holocaust in 2006. Even sociopaths can luck out once in a while so why take a chance, why not just wait it out. So after 2006 most of my good friends were leaving anyway so there was no point to stay any longer and I left.

Me: After a couple of years I no longer experienced the same progress and I no longer found meetings and center activities as productive. I was going around in circles. But by this point I had few friends outside of the Fellowship, having been encouraged to live with students and actively discouraged from spending time with ‘life’. All of my hopes had been invested in the Fellowship. Alongside the spiritual development, the Fellowship practices of ‘second line’, ‘emotionality’, ‘valuation’ and the concretization of false personality, etc., had put me in a position where it was very difficult to leave the Fellowship. When I spent time with an older student who was very critical of Robert I was told by the center directors that I was negative and was being poisoned by him. I saw people leave the Fellowship and I didn’t see them again. Leaving was akin to spiritual death. There was a definite approval/disapproval culture: attend meetings, do ‘third line’, live with students, eulogize Robert, make extra payments=Good; spend time with ‘life’, don’t attend events, criticize the Fellowship or Robert=Bad. The grand myth of the Fellowship also took its toll. What if the FOF was the seed of a new civilization? What if California did fall? When I woke up when I experienced a synchronicity, what if that was really due to the 44 angels? Surely all of that would disappear if I left the Fellowship. Would I even be able to self-remember if I left? Surely my instinctive center would just imitate it. I can’t trust my instinctive center and its desires for a life outside of the Fellowship.

DC’s Ex member – Interestingly, something really beneficial happened after I left. It seems like I acquired the ability to tell only the unbiased truth about Robert Burton and the FoF, in spite of my bad experiences in the cult and my deep loathing for the organization. Now I can help others know the truth because I seem incapable of distorting any portion of my comments about FoF on this blog. I appear to be equally incapable of contradicting myself, having any ulterior motives or exaggerating anything I say. You don’t have to take my word for it, you can judge by all the other ex members comments as, when it comes to criticizing the FoF we are all in agreement, down to the slightest detail. This is proof I’m right, otherwise why would all the others agree with me?

Me: The above is simply reductio ad absurdum. Once I was in the process of leaving I was able to look again at Robert, to listen to friends who had been coerced into sex with Robert without coming up with Daily-Cardiac-style justifications. I listened to the hardline students and found most of them heartless and unable to think outside of the box created by Robert. I discovered that the Fellowship has much in common with other closed groups and cults.

DC’s Ex member – I also seem to have acquired the ability to know that all current students lie about what they say; they only spew out the company line and defend the indefensible. The other ex members all agree with me on this point also so, this too, must be true. I know what you’re thinking; of the 20,000 or so comments on the blog, the vast majority by ex members, it’s preposterous to claim that all statements by ex members are entirely true and all statements by current members are entirely false, but check it out for your self. That’s exactly what’s being suggested on the blog. And all of us ex members can’t be wrong, can we?

Me: The blog was very important for me. I could have contact with ex-members, There was a lot of disagreement between ex-members and after years of trying to agree with Robert’s statements and the stifling of genuine discussion in the Fellowship I was initially shocked by the discordant tone of the blog, but I’ve come to appreciate the variety of views. The blog grew up spontaneously as a response to the Sheikh’s initial description of a prospective student meeting,

188. Jomo Piñata - September 29, 2008

Ellen, I would not expect you to relinquish cherished beliefs and values on the strength of my critical commentary. So too is it natural to proselytise on behalf of something you believe in strongly. But I encourage you not simply to pigeonhole the analysis in 183 as one fundamentally limited by conceptual constraints of the “dualistic mind.” I focus on you both out of respect and affection for you, and also out of what I must describe as “the flavor of doctrinal certainty” which I discover in your posts. It’s kind of like waving a red cape at a matador.

Like you I’ve spent long stretches of my life under a particular set of operating assumptions. I do not mean just the Fellowship’s totalitarian fundamentalist worldview. I also mean the generalized mystical discipleship paradigm that presupposes certain cognitive and spiritual “breakthroughs” midwived by persons of spiritual attainment.

I am simply saying, those operating assumptions are not watertight. I am *not* saying, there are no spiritual triumphs. I am *not* saying mystical experience is beyond us. I am *not* saying we cannot become wiser, better, or more loving than we are. I *am* saying, become conscious of your assumptions, even those that seem to be helping you, and in respect of these particular assumptions, understand they too have an Achilles heel.

189. Draco - September 29, 2008

It’s always good to post actual examples of life in the Fellowship. Some years ago, some prominent members were in the process of leaving and, along with other members, were having sessions with an alternative health practitioner. Among them was one of “Robert’s boys” who had been hitting his wife. The practitioner knew nothing of this but commented that the young man was really in a mess. When Robert found out that his students were visiting this practitioner, of course he found out who was doing this by getting a list of names from other “students” and sent messages to them telling them to stop going to the practitioner. He also had a fax sent to the pracitioner telling him not to steal Robert’s students and adding that he (Robert) was the “teacher of the age.”

190. Jomo Piñata - September 29, 2008

er, make that, “red cape at a bull…” LOL!

191. Jomo Piñata - September 29, 2008

Lacuna Piñata wrote:

As far as people being “genuinely damaged by the Fellowship” I do not believe that is the case. No one is forced to do anything against their will in the FoF. People have to make enormous efforts just to stay in the FoF. If someone stays against their better judgment, they have nothing to blame but their own inability to follow their heart.

Lacuna brother, it’s clear to me you have a very uninformed, 19th century view of volition. You read these books that come of the teens and twenties in Russia, and you hang onto these views for dear life. It’s like you’re wearing little Ouspensky pince-nez! They don’t even make those anymore!

Even in those books you read about the Yezidis who couldn’t step outside the circle. Would you say that those Yezidis had nothing to blame but their own inability to follow their heart? Or was something else at play?

192. fofblogmoderator - September 29, 2008

184 & 186 are newly moderated

193. aline - September 29, 2008

#184 #186 Another name
As I wrote it in the GF on this question (why not sign the petition?):

For me, you stopped to be brainwashed, the day you stop having fear.

194. More history needed? - September 29, 2008

Anybody knows more about the following exercises in the fellowship by Robert Burton?

M-r– was not allowed to have the play of the Tempest performed in an ex students house?

There is a fear of going to events organized by ex students?

The property looks really in bad condition?

Ex students were not allowed to go to funeral’ s anymore, like the funeral on Saturday for -dd– L-hm—-?

Members who are working on salary and have a side business are being investigated if they use property of the fellowship to their own gains?

Anybody know more?

195. simeon - September 29, 2008

more on obedience:
Johannes Chrysostomus:
“The monk does not submit irrationally to a man, but lives the mystery of obedience, this wondrous mystery, which demands from him a profound and essential denial of every inner want, attachment, and adherence to the sinful ego, and a total dedication to the Heavenly Father. Consciously abandoning his existence to the will of God, and having cut off every bond with and allegiance to the ailing old man, the disciple stands before the King of Glory and cries: ‘Speak, Lord, and Thy servant hears through his Elder what is Thy holy will.’”

FYI: I am not a member

196. dragon - September 29, 2008

173. ton
If I eat some lettuce with my friends be sure Ton: We/I hope the plants are working with us.

175. unoanimo
We/I are/am sorry about it but we/I have no shamanic garden.(nice idea; when’s the Santa?)
It is a different way we/I am working with plants (amongst other things). You could find it very boring (perhaps).

174. arthur

The Gordian knot: the petition and its progress!

Draconian? Why?

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto,..

Heautontimorumenos Terenz (1,1,25)

197. unoanimo - September 29, 2008

Hello More history needed? ~

From a bird’s eye view, the once lush, 365 acre toupee of grape leaves is now pretty much a tan swimming hat, dotted here and there with green fingerprints of a swimmer who happens to have a rare eccentric habit of eating powered kelp and Klamath Falls lake algae before each ‘meeting’.

I would say that at least 93% of the vineyard is definitely ‘gone’: the irrigation lines, posts, and even the root-torsos of those incredibly old and beautiful givers of grape seeds, have all been ‘uprooted’ and buried, someplace near the graveyard of the cement mixing tower and water truck. RIP.

Personally, the only positive change that I’ve seen on a greater scale than hearsay is Mehai shopping at the Oregon House Grocery Store; and I mean that…

This morning a student was broad sided at the intersection of Rice’s Crossing and Marysville Road (didn’t look left I suspect) by a little Ford Ranger packed with hunting equipment… Everyone is ok… I remember something about the left eye (?) Nonetheless, we’re all hunters who presume that everything we drive will possess a straight line; not so, particularly once your frame has been successfully bent; it sure makes the tango less daunting.
—————————-

Nigel; yes that Pan’s Labyrinth! Wow, what a movie; I still do not really see that the violence (particularly that kind) was really integral to the magic wrought by it; I feel that there was a political message embedded in there for the sake of a trauma suffered by the producer’s self or ancestry; in other words, an acid-bio terrain catharsis of sorts… Hauntingly beautiful and the hoot is, that it’s all real.
——-

Arthur ~

I remember asking you about the ‘hearsay’ concerning your ‘serious incident’, though never heard back from you (Of course; maybe not on the blog certain details.) (?) I send you my very best for the initiation you’re going through… If the cactus “jumped off the page”, then I’d plant it and place it on a little table wherever I spend the most time daily… Gosh, that reminds me of the ‘Pet Rock’ phenomenon… Wow and I was dead serious about my pet rock (indeed) and Mexican Jumping beans… One way to start, since you asked ‘What next?’ is to read about the biographies effected by these teachers (I’m writing mine) and there’s (ton’s) out there… Incredible and moving accounts of good changes; either way, change visits in the form the Universe deems fit (as I am sure you understand deeply)… There are no rules when all you want is the quick sand of love and an immortal diving tank.

Love to you all.

198. tina - September 29, 2008

Just in case you didnt know C**l*s C**un**o left the FOF.
I thank thee.

199. fofblogmoderator - September 30, 2008

195 is newly moderated

200. Yesri Baba - September 30, 2008

Jomo 183, 188

Nice posts. Ah, those Achilles heels are clever little devils, but they keep us walking in the right direction. The non-dual ‘heel’ should be easy enough to spot. It is right there in the name non-dual (not two- not one). If you have split something off (i.e. ego) you have surely stubbed a toe.

“The mind turned outward is ego and the world, the mind turned inward is the Self” Ramana

As if we may , one day, exist/not exist more than we exist/not exist now.

201. Jomo Piñata - September 30, 2008

200/Yessirree
Nice post backatcha.

202. arthur - September 30, 2008

Unoanimo (196),

Exacerbated episode of COPD-emphysema/Congestive Heart Failure.

4-5 days intubated/4-5 days BI-pap both 24/7. 10 days I.C.U,
4 days continued hospitalization. 14 days total. Transported to Nursing Home immobile. 33 days rehab.

Taking xanax for high anxiety.

203. unoanimo - September 30, 2008

Hello Arthur ~

Take a look at ~ http://www.tibetanherbs.com/anxietysupport.html.

There’s also Valerian: will your insurance pay for a Tibetan Doctor’s remedies/consultation? Holy smokes, have you read up on Alprazolam… Its molecule body reminds me of those incredibly outfitted, holy visitors from outer space at the beginning of the movie The Fifth Element (That’s not a bad thing BTW.)

In the Taoist system your spirit condition (panic/anxiety) are originating in/from the Spleen. If you look at the Spleen’s relation (structurally) to the Pancreas, it looks like an embryo at the end of an umbilical cord… Amazing!

So, if you can, get in touch with your spleen (literally), find a way to massage it and make a connection between what’s in your heart and it… They’re ‘blood brothers’ in many ways.

Someday, each of our private ailments will stop this planet for more love and erase a certain superstition that one person’s spleen is not everyone’s communicating, saying something… Might as well add to the Starting-line now, yes? I can relate to your spleen’s aura, much.

A hot foot-spa with mineral salts is a miracle too.

Take care Arthur; if you get a florescent grow light, you can make that garden inside your house as well… I am right now in the process of making a miniature bubble of the Amazon basin for less that you’d think: think Ebay and as for the seeds, well, you know where to get those (probably in your back yard, you lucky guy!)

My love to you

204. Sjaman - September 30, 2008

To DC about conscience:

Ouspensky defined it as ‘feeling all together’, as opposed to consciousness, which could be defined as ‘knowing all together’. Conscience for man #1,2,3 may just be a collection of subjective cultural I’s, but for man #4 and higher it is a moment of seeing your own contradictory emotional attitudes towards the same person or recurring event. Conscience does not ‘send messages’, it is just a moment of self awareness related to the 3rd factor in which self remembering can be measured; depth. (the other 2 being frequency and duration)

205. Allan S - September 30, 2008

Tina #198 Thank you for this information.x

206. Ellen - September 30, 2008

#188, Jomo,

Thank you very much for your affectionate clarification. I understand and agree with you. No problem. “The flavour of doctrinal certainty” you perceive is a main element of why I post here. Sorry if it seems unexamined to you or others. I accept the Achilles Heel proviso.
*****
‘Member when Ouspensky said in ‘the Psychology of Man’s Possible Evolution’ that a man makes efforts to “evolve” either by being repulsed from who he is or by being drawn to what he may become? Something like that, and I’m not bothering to look up the quote now. So, I tend to think that the same dynamic plays relative to a full perception of the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton – the main subject of this blog.

But the problem is that everyone who is deeply ensconced has heard all the negative info for years and found ways to buffer it, so for them, for many, for most, being repulsed is not really an option. And I could be wrong, it’s just the way I see it. So, also although I applaud the various efforts of picketing or the petition or xxx, my personal experience, understanding, and “effort” takes me more in the direction of providing some information about what is possible beyond the doctrinal bounds presented by RB and the FoF. Particularly the non-dual ideas and experiences that helped me to leave the Fellowship, and to understand spirituality in a much wider, deeper, fuller context. But it is not a context I would impose on anyone.

It is rather an effort of love for the people who are still “inside”, some of whom still haunt my dreams at night, and also for the many other friends who may have departed years ago and yet remained jaded or gun shy of ever trusting themselves with a path or teacher ever again. It just doesn’t need to be that way, and that is my experience.

But maybe I’l shut up for awhile and let people figure it out for themselves, huh? The (blog) world will certainly turn without me for awhile.

Kussy, kussy (means, kiss, kiss) to all.

207. arthur - September 30, 2008

Unoanimo (203),

A discussion has started on GF, “why sign the petition”? I am starting a discussion here. “Why I like the Blog”.

For me it’s the many links to Health, Happiness and Love. And, I thank all you Healers for contributing your-selves.

Thanks Unoanimo, very much. I went to the site and liked what I saw.

Oh, maybe the Blog is really a source to Heal the Fellowship of Friends memories? It’s healed mine.

208. Vinnie the fish - September 30, 2008

“150. sharon – September 28, 2008
I don’t believe its to travel around the world and get free or cheap lodging; again so many have left all over the world, and are probably still willing to host you. Do you think your meaningful conversations will dwindle if you let your membership in the group lapse?”

Yes, mainly these 2, some important friendships would lapse, so I won’t let it lapse just yet. I’m a one foot in, one foot out person.

209. You-me-us-they - September 30, 2008

Hello Winnie

You wrote: I’m a one foot in, one foot out person.

You sounded funny (bloop… bloppp…),

you look funny too now (limp lump, limp lump…)
With gold plate cane!

We will give one millenium more to adjust…
Your God!

210. dragon - September 30, 2008

207. arthur

why I like the blog:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=J8R4uxdu_Jw&feature=related

and best wishes!

211. jack - September 30, 2008

Hi folks.
The petition signatures and comments are now cleaned up and I now have administrative powers in relation to it.
From now on all signatures and comments will have to have my ok.
Oh and Whalerider we can seemingly remove advertising for a small fee.
Arthur
good vibes to you I second Uno’s advice about ” Valeriana Officinalis” once it gets into your system which can take a few days, it is a more natural and less destructive to the nervous system alternative.
all the best
Jack.

212. Yesri Baba - September 30, 2008

“I’m a one foot in, one foot out person”

Don’t they call that ‘stuck between two stools’ in 4th way parlance?
Or is that phrase reserved for Bobby’s boys now?

213. rock that boat - September 30, 2008

198. tina – September 29, 2008
Just in case you didnt know C**l*s C**un**o left the FOF.
I thank thee.

That’s great news! Thank you Tina
What about El-za?

214. Jomo Piñata - September 30, 2008

212/Yessiree
Ewwwwww!

215. lauralupa - September 30, 2008

cross the street from your storefront cemetary
hear me hailing from inside and realize

i am the conscience clear
in pain or ecstacy
and we were all weaned my dear
upon the same fatigue

staring at the sun
oh my own voice
cannot save me now
standing in the sea
it’s just
one more breath
and then
down i go

your mouth is open wide
the lover is inside
and all the tumults done
collided with the sign
you’re staring at the sun
you’re standing in the sea
your body’s over me

note the trees because
the dirt is temporary
more to mine than fact face
name and monetary

be what you will
and then thrown down your life
oh it’s a damned fine game
and we can play all night

beat the skins and let the
loose lips kiss you clean
quietly pour out like light
like light, like answering the sun


you’re staring at the sun
you’re standing in the sea
your mouth is open wide
you’re trying hard to breathe
the water’s at your neck
there’s lightning in your teeth
your body’s over me

216. aline - September 30, 2008

#211 Jack
Thanks

217. Across the River - September 30, 2008

211 Jack

Wow – this makes a big difference! Signing it is a personal choice, of course, but it IS beginning to get interesting now to hear from those who choose not to sign. Anyway I think we’ll get there without them. I’m not too concerned about the advertising, BTW.

218. unoanimo - October 1, 2008

Hello Arthur ~

A reference for you, in case you’re curious ~

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/nik_kowalew/nik_s_web001.htm

________

He’s in Corpus C.

:.)

219. elena - October 1, 2008

I was for a moment thinking that after all, we could be proud of ourselves for not having killed anyone and realized that even that was not possible to affirm. How many children were quickly disposed of by direct orders from Robert? A friend said she’d been helping take care of the job for eighteen years, always told the ladies it was their baby and not Robert’s but where families are biological, what could it matter? I was involved in the Fellowship of Friends for seventeen years where these things happened systematically and will continue to happen as long as it continues to function.

*******

From a different angle could the question circle around the fact that regeneration comes after destruction? When a fire runs over the forest few areas go untouched. Why be afraid of the fire? Is that what our pampered world has taught us? Are not all gatherings of people like spiritual crops and after the harvest wouldn’t they equally require the fire for the Spirit to renovate itself? Is it that city people like us have lost all understanding of the processes and get trapped at each step? Trapped in the Fellowship; trapped in the destruction… and hopefully allow for the regeneration to trap us?

******

Time is such a healer… and friends.

Nigel, have you found out what natural substances would help you replace the chemicals? Have you even considered such possibility? The ups and downs might seem almost unbearable but knowing you’re there to respond for yourself is twice as powerful. Isn’t it strange that talented people like us would have so much difficulty dealing with the ordinary? You of course are much more talented than I am in not fighting but Nigel, you’re cheating with all those chemicals even if it is allowed to cheat! Will you not distort this and take it with the lovingness that I’m writing it?
I’m sure you have the talent or you would not be sending me those beautiful little gifts on the mail, the real mail that I had forgotten still existed.

Nigel love, one of the things I most enjoy about your openness is that you’re in the end, quite comfortable with yourself. Or is it just those pills still cheating at me? It’s already such a great advantage, why do you think you would be afraid to truly land on the tight rope and allow yourself to walk?

We people are standing on the other side of the wall and trying to get a standing in the ordinary while most people are standing on this side of the wall and trying to get a glimpse of the extraordinary. No one knows who is more terrified of the other! But I say that most people should just get comfortable on the tight rope and start walking on “both sides now” instead of running up to the wall and looking at the other side with absolute fascination but still content about having a wall stand up between them. Just looking into each other’s eyes should make it so clear that we’re looking at the Universe within no matter how bony or fleshy the head and the rest of the body seem to be. The eyes; how long is it since you last looked into another’s eyes?

*****

I fly
My long and extended wings surf the heavens
but my wounded feet keep me from landing.
I can’t eat but what I catch in the air.

Would you soften the earth that I may land on the tip of my wings?
Would you circle a landing spot with cotton that my feet might stretch out as best as they can and not be afraid of the fall?
Why would you?
Why would you in this land in which the ones who don’t have broken feet, have broken wings?
Why would you?

*****

I dream of a giant shell like composition that extends out into life on the corner of the Public Square, embracing it.
A ying-yang half that extends out its hand
In glass.
Hundreds of pieces of coloured glass gently rising from the earth into the heavens and opening their hand to give and receive and give
And receive
Light.

Light coloured light that can be tuned on at night and needs no tuning in daylight.
A human tree that heals the passers by not with its shade but with its coloured tones.
An open gesture that receives and gives with equal joy.

I dream of the joy of a people that have understood their humanity with shy pride
The newly tasted pride of an old joy.

The children in the poor neighbourhoods South of the World, play football in the Public Square or the public streets, unconcerned with the cars that few own enough to use. They are the true owners of the spirit of the Public Square, they are the only ones who have yet understood the nature of the city.

One day we’ll walk across the Public Square and know that we have taken care of the people around it. We will walk on it with the humility of a man that knows his job and the grandeur of a man that knows his stature. One day we’ll be fully human, fully divine beings.

*******

Another Name,
Whether you sign the petition or not is entirely up to you. What ever you feel is right is right for you. If eventually you change your mind and find other wise, it’ll still be right for now.

*******

You hold me at the tip of your being and allow me to turn like a veleta in the wind. (Veleta= those coloured things that children so much enjoy and put out of the window of the car to watch them turn with the wind.)

I did not know that movement and form could be so loving but then I’ve only just began to discover this world.

Ahyee!

All is well!
All is one!

220. Another Name - October 1, 2008

Dear all,

51 signatures ……. the petition…..

http://www.petitiononline.com/djindjin/petition-sign.html

What are words….?
act or not?
Be silent or express yourself.
Are we all one?
By signing, what do I sign if we are all one?

221. James Mclemore - October 1, 2008

Jack:

Great work cleaning up the petition.
Nothing particularly offensive about it but you may wish to check out #40 (Paul Newman). If you cut and paste the site in the comment section you will see who put it there.

222. whalerider - October 1, 2008

elena:
Re: nigel Please understand that I mean no offense, IMO, all is not well in my view if you are making such flippant and theoretical suggestions beyond your level of being in the area regarding Nigel’s medicine that could seriously endanger his (or anyone in his condition) life and mental health. What he is dealing with is not a picnic in the park.

Just enjoy his openness as you claim to do and leave it at that. IMO, you are unkind to challenge how he got there with your idea that he is somehow “cheating you” by taking his prescribed medicine.

I am asking you respectfully, please stop.

223. fofblogmoderator - October 1, 2008

218 & 220 are newly moderated

224. unoanimo - October 1, 2008

Hello Another Name ~

You asked ~ “By signing, what do I sign if we are all one?”

____________

IMO (i.e., for me), regardless of the lightning quick and primordial relaxation that occurs when one ear hears the other receiving the whisper ‘I will take care of you in case this or that happens…’ or ‘We are all one’, it does not still the bell that’s ringing in my gut, in my plexus that feels something beyond the nest, the egg and the lift off from hatching: that this life is fleeting for a reason greater than the sum of its parts, which pretty much contradict themselves by ticking away the proof that it has built so to say confidently, ‘In your next lifetime, in heaven, in hell, in me, in the lord, in, in, in… All these drunken Inns; I simply wish to walk having never known a bed or an alarm clock; though that’s just poetry, right? ‘We are all one’ is definitely (IMO) a truth, though it’s not applicable for me when it comes to being good to myself, apologizing, licking my wounds and not sticking out my tongue to the dog once it’s back behind the fence again; it doesn’t help the sense that I am a family member on this planet for my brothers and sisters (secondly) really, because without my own roots drinking the autonomy that my consceince and hypocritical sides produce from these nightly rain clouds, then, can I wear a lead-bell, really? I mean, if we are all one, then we’re all wearing bells leading… Though the world doesn’t look like that does it? If I stand still and let the bell ring upwards, it makes allot more sense, i.e., that we are all one: this ‘one’ doesn’t settle into me as deeply as my sensed portion of that numeral does… My consceince tells me that to love is very difficult and that this ‘We are one.’ is still deeply a prayer that only each member of that sum can answer for the sum and not the sum for itself and that the meaning within the sum resides in its ‘rays’, not its ‘planet’… So, IMO, love yourself first and let the sum unfold into you as the result of you having done so well being you as you sense best and ‘right’…

Nigel ~ There’s no such a thing as ‘cheating’, so, IMO, erase that word from your soul and cellular body: records are being kept and when we knowingly cannot go any further to save what we sense is a presence inside a body that’s loosing faster than our spirit can pick up god’s loose change, then, we are doing our best and something else is taking care that our learning continues, aided and thwarted by the body, who is actually just a big coin purse from Space… Your beauty flows through a canyon that has done nothing in of itself to call itself ‘deep’, the water flowing and always a new river has done all the work and the hardest part of the Earth has surrendered as Time sees fit: when you look out of the window, the window is looking with you and thanks you by giving you back a picture of pure endurance and trust beyond left and right: you’re that river running through your body and mind… Rumi said something like ~ ‘There’s a meadow that’s beyond right and wrong, I’ll meet you there.’ We all know this place, otherwise they’d be no goosebumps flocking off our bodies to try and land where we originated from…

Love to you all.

225. spoonful - October 1, 2008

155. Another Name – September 28, 2008

The above makes make curious….why do you have to guard against feelings…feelings of remorse. Is going through the grief not the only way out?

156. whalerider – September 28, 2008

spoonful: “I have to guard against feelings of remorse for not having been more receptive to others at the time.”

Why, pray tell?

*******

Of course you are both right to query this and I shall attempt to qualify my statement.

The remorse I experience is now and not something I felt then – nor would be able to feel given my state at the time.

This is my struggle – just as I have to continue to wrestle with all kind of injustices that take place in the world around me. Yes, I realise there are things not in my control, but it doesn’t mean they still don’t have the ability to affect me. I am human after all – in addition to the extra sensitivity that has been placed on me, due to my years in the Fellowship.

Now I see my struggle as a human being is to attempt to make sense of our past and present and try to apply it to my future. As least that is how I live my life – even if it is to try not to make similar mistakes again, or try to help others who are suffering in comparable situations.

So I value the remorse, yes. But when I say I have to guard against feelings of remorse, it is more the self indulgence of a past situation I cannot change.

The same with grief. We all grieve (providing we’re human), we have no choice. But there are some who choose to wear black for the rest of their lives.

When it comes down to it, we realise there is very little we can do. But the little we can do can in turn be so much.

226. elena - October 1, 2008

Whalerider,

I have not asked Nigel to stop using the medicine but explore options and I do not believe you know all the options.

I respectfully ask you to respect my opinion which is in no way forcing Nigel to do anything against himself no matter how much you interpret it that way.

We cheat our selves if we cannot rely on our selves, the whole medicine trip can be a trap. Exploring options is just an exploration that goes against no one. Even ayahuasca or amanitas muscaria could be considered by true healers. Would hypnosis help in any way? Or is it totally useless for such conditions?

227. elena - October 1, 2008

Another Name,

Checking each other without harming each other is an option but it is worth looking closely at what you wish to check before you take any action. You don’t seem to be very clear about the Fellowship. Why rush a decision and do what others are doing or not doing? Would you profit from that?

When I think of the crime in the Fellowship I am eager to sign and hope it stops but maybe for you these are not octaves of crime.

228. Draco - October 1, 2008

208. Vinnie the fish – September 30, 2008

“150. sharon – September 28, 2008
I don’t believe its to travel around the world and get free or cheap lodging; again so many have left all over the world, and are probably still willing to host you. Do you think your meaningful conversations will dwindle if you let your membership in the group lapse?”

Yes, mainly these 2, some important friendships would lapse, so I won’t let it lapse just yet. I’m a one foot in, one foot out person.
—————-
Vinnie, that’s fair enough. But you really ought to question the basis for a friendship which will end if you leave the FOF. These friends of yours might find themselves leaving in a couple of years and the friendships could resume. My advice to you is simply: look. Look aqt the boundaries and no-go areas of your friendships in the FOF. The things that you can’t say. The emotional limits within the FOF. Look around at the meetings. Just be homnest with yourself about what you see and the value of it.

229. Mick Danger - October 1, 2008

A little joke for lauralupa:
(The others that have not ascended will not get it)
A guy walks into a psychiatrist’s office with a duck on his head.
The psychiatrist asks: ‘How may I help you?’
The duck says: ‘How do I get this guy off my ass?’

230. Mick Danger - October 1, 2008

Dear Yesri –
You must stand up for the principle and sit on your own stool.

231. arthur - October 1, 2008

Unoanimo (218),

Yes!!! I have sent him a e-mail requesting the address and phone number of the “shamanistic group” here in Corpitos.

The reporter from the Appeal-Democrat (?) called me last night and is writing another story about the Fellowship of Friends.

Would somebody give a “heads-up” when he has it published.

Thanks again, Unoanimo, very much.

232. Cake please - October 1, 2008

For Aline

me, just an old school girl
like my days in fairy tale
you know, do unto others

you know, the golden rule
if you have to have a rule
at least it should be golden

but these days
my technicolour dream
is being challenged

they say, my full spectrum
is just another version
of black and white

all is maya you say
no debate, you win

but spent too much time
mopping up bloody foot prints
not to say

one, two or three

think twice before
you but your illusionary knife
into the illusionary back
of someone you call friend

can you have your spirituality
without humanity?

no excuse

Cake

233. whalerider - October 1, 2008

elena:
Please understand that respecting your opinion doesn’t mean I have to agree with it nor keep silent about it.

While you have been in a cult for the past 17 years, I have actually been out exploring for the last 23 years many of the options in alternative healing modalites, some in great detail, so I ask that you respect my opinion in my assessment of what you were suggesting to Nigel and “cheating”. IMO, you owe him an apology for that comment.

You say, “Even ayahuasca or amanitas muscaria could be considered by true healers.”

IMO, these substances ought not to be mentioned in the context of a conversation about exploring “options” with someone whom has already suffered a psychotic break. This is where you again overstep your bounds of experience. Nor would it be wise for such a person on prescribed neuroleptics to mix their medicine with such powerful herbal substances as these or even others seemingly less benign such as nicotine for that matter.

IMO, what Nigel suffers from is not something that one necessarily “heals” from like a bad infection for which one might take antibiotics, but a serious ongoing condition with which he must learn to cope on an every day basis. From that perspective, his disease provides him with more moment by moment opportunities to work on being present than you or I have in our daily struggles which are tame by comparison.

That being said, if your intent was to suggest to Nigel or someone like him to explore other coping skills to use in addition to his prescribed medication, then yes, self-hypnosis could prove to be a useful and self-empowering tool.

I once knew a chap suffering schizophrenia whom I met when I worked in a psychiatric half-way house. He claimed to have met Dr. Milton Erickson, MD, a renowned psychiatrist who was an expert hypnotherapist, and Erickson taught him self-hypnosis. The patient claimed at times he used self-hypnosis and positive self-talk to walk himself out of his psychotic episodes.

Now If I were to recommend exploring self-hypnosis to someone dealing with a serious condition like Nigel, I would recommend that they learn from a qualified professional in their home town, not from reading about it in a book.

Namaste, elena.

234. Ellen - October 1, 2008

#194, More History Needed,

About the recent children’s play, “The Tempest”, apparently there was confusion about where to hold the performances as the children-performers were from current and former member families. So a home was suggested – off the property – where the husband was no longer a member but the wife still was. That also was no good. There was a bru-ha-ha and much political manouvering, so I hear.

Thus finally it was held in the town hall/Prytenaion. The children were very upset, crying, etc… and they crafted a letter to Robert, so I hear. And then this description came in to me today:
“At one point they were calling around to ex-member parents trying to strong arm them into first signing a paper agreeing that they wouldn’t try to sneak onto the property to see the play, and when that failed trying to get their verbal assurances they wouldn’t. P___ S______ just hung up on M_______ A_____ when she called. The result was there were people (thugs) posted all over the property and town hall looking for ex-ers. They were told that if an ex parent was caught on the property, they would stop the play and pull that parent’s child off the stage and escort him or her to the gatehouse.”

Love, Robert
******************
About the acreage of land that is still in vines, I think Uno’s estimate of 95% is a bit under the mark. To my knowledge, about 65 acres of the best producing vineyard land was retained to produce RVW wines. Various other acreage is being leased to GR and ES for their winery. So of the original 365 acres it is more like 20% or more that is still being actively farmed. It is fine to correct me if someone has more accurate numbers than that.

235. dragon - October 1, 2008

219. Elena

I enjoyed your post (below) in many ways:

“We people are standing on the other side of the wall and trying to get a standing in the ordinary while most people are standing on this side of the wall and trying to get a glimpse of the extraordinary. No one knows who is more terrified of the other! But I say that most people should just get comfortable on the tight rope and start walking on “both sides now” instead of running up to the wall and looking at the other side with absolute fascination but still content about having a wall stand up between them. Just looking into each other’s eyes should make it so clear that we’re looking at the Universe within no matter how bony or fleshy the head and the rest of the body seem to be. The eyes; how long is it since you last looked into another’s eyes?”

GREAT! Elena unfortunately I can’t see your eyes on this blog. A wall is often behind the frontheads and (please excuse my joke) the Schrödinger’s Cat is behind the fronthead sleeping.

and your question“Nigel, have you found out what natural substances would help you replace the chemicals? Have you even considered such possibility?”

Elena, we(no angels)/I think that your hint given to Nigel could be some kind of talking at cross purposes because of the meaning of “natural substances”.

Every natural substance (e.g. in a traditional chinese remedy=mixture of many ingredients) is a chemical. Likewise e.g.alprazolame is an organic chemical.
Many “natural substances” are extremly effective and maybe in future it will be possible to endure pain without addiction, without side effects and maybe available for all people. An example for this aim is ω-Conotoxin MVIIA.
The synthetic analog yet exists as P___®.

Natural substances (and alternative methods) can also be an additional medication, but this ought to be the job of Nigel and Nigel’s personal doctor. Thank you for giving him your thougt.

The text(or links) below: If you have no time, please ignore it.

In the Vienna General Hospital (AKH) as well as in various hospitals in the USA research is done in the field of conotoxins as pain killers. Conotoxins’ advantage seems to be, that they do not lead to addiction (in contrary to morphine based drugs), they have relatively little side effects and they are highly specific.

http://www.weichtiere.at/Mollusks/Schnecken/meer/conotoxin.html

http://www.curehunter.com/public/pubmed17207931.do

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00047749?term=omega-conopeptide+mviia+AND+ziconotide&intr=%22Ziconotide%22&rank=1

Olivera BM:
-Conotoxin MVIIA: From Marine Snail Venom to Analgesic Drug.
Fusetani N (ed): Drugs from the Sea. Basel, Karger, 2000, pp 74-85
(DOI: 10.1159/000062483)

236. Wondering - October 1, 2008

Here’s an interesting comment from Robert Burton made in 2006:

“Gurdjieff and Ouspensky were never in the work. They did not know what the work was – the sequence.”

Let’s see Robert, you didn’t have the “sequence” between the years 1970-2005(6). Pray tell, what were you doing for 35 years?

237. aline - October 1, 2008

#232Cake please
think twice before
you but your illusionary knife
into the illusionary back
of someone you call friend
can you have your spirituality
without humanity?
no excuse.

Can you speak clearly?
Who is the “someone I call friend”?

238. aline - October 1, 2008

#232
I am not used to put knives in the back of people, that is why I write under my own name.

239. WonderingWhosWatching - October 1, 2008

51/~236. Wondering – October 1, 2008

‘Pray tell, what were you doing for 35 years?’

Perhaps you meant to say:
Prey tell. . .

as in:

Prey \Prey\, n. [OF. preie, F. proie, L. praeda, probably for praeheda. See Prehensile, and cf. Depredate, Predatory.]

1. Anything, as goods, etc., taken or got by violence; anything taken by force from an enemy in war; spoil; booty; plunder.

And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest. –Num. xxxi. 12.

2. That which is or may be seized by animals or birds to be devoured; hence, a person given up as a victim.

The old lion perisheth for lack of prey. –Job iv. ii.

Already sees herself the monster’s prey. –Dryden.

3. The act of devouring other creatures; ravage.

Hog in sloth, fox in stealth, . . . lion in prey. –Shakespeare

Beast of prey, a carnivorous animal; one that feeds on the flesh of other animals.

Source: Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

240. Mick Danger - October 1, 2008

Rock & Roll Casualty List for October:
Janis Jopin (1970) – The Queen
Duane Allman (1971) – The Southern Prince

241. alan davis - October 1, 2008

dance a pair of ragged claws
were we all once overawed?
and now the silence we can’t take
so a big empty noise we make
death can, though we don’t like
so we sing loud in a mike,
shall I go on or in quiet keep
so you now yawning, go to sleep.

242. sharon - October 1, 2008

#235 Ellen: ““At one point they were calling around to ex-member parents trying to strong arm them into first signing a paper agreeing that they wouldn’t try to sneak onto the property to see the play, and when that failed trying to get their verbal assurances they wouldn’t. P___ S______ just hung up on M_______ A_____ when she called. The result was there were people (thugs) posted all over the property and town hall looking for ex-ers. They were told that if an ex parent was caught on the property, they would stop the play and pull that parent’s child off the stage and escort him or her to the gatehouse.”

I can easily believe the folks in FoF would do this – what is amazing to me is that the BOD of the children’s school, which is now a PUBLIC Charter school in Yuba County, would tolerate this, or that the parents in this school would tolerate it. It is clear religious discrimination, and would surely be grounds for dissolving the school as a PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOL.

And if the parents tolerate it (for the sake of their kids???) how can they imagine it would not become public knowledge? And if they do tolerate it, what do they imagine that is teaching their children – to tolerate being treated as second-class citizens because of their parents’ condition of non-membership in this organisation. What would the reaction be if the parents were racially mixed rather than membership-mixed? Or non-Mormons? or ex-Republicans?

I would really appreciate it if someone who knows first-hand would corroborate this, as it is very disturbing. I heard that the play would be performed at Lake Francis – was there another “private” performance done at FoF? If so, it would not erase the religious discrimination.

If it is all really true, I think it is a real shame that the good things that are being done with this charter school would be jeopardized by the stupidity of this action.

243. Jomo Piñata - October 1, 2008

I’m not sure how the discriminatory acts are to be imputed to the public charter school–it sounds to me like it is the charter school’s unfortunate choice of venue that’s at issue, and in my opinion the charter school ought to pull out!

244. sharon - October 1, 2008

I believe that the BOD of the charter school is comprised of current FoF members, who should know better than to use the FoF venue in the first place.

245. sharon - October 1, 2008

Just an example, say a public school chose to perform a children’s play using several hispanic-american or african-american students at a local country club. The country club has a no non-caucasian attendees policy – they allow the children performers, but not their ethnic parents on site. Is this legal for the public school to allow their students to perfom at such a venue?

Or to put it in the religious context – they perform at a catholic church – the non-catholic children perfomers are allowed, but not their non-catholic parents. Is this legal?

246. Cake please - October 1, 2008

Dear Aline

Your name at the to of my post was in reference to your post 62.

The content was never meant to reflect on you. Can see how it could be misinterpreted.

So sorry
Cake

247. elena - October 1, 2008

Whalerider,

I don’t think it is an offense to say cheating lovingly because it is one way to control one’s self with medication and another without it. The western medication that I’ve seen for people with depression tends to put them in an O.K. mood from which they cannot move. Other medicines in my opinion would be worth exploring and I suggest it because it matters to me. I’ve seen enough of the ups and downs that my friend Nigel goes through here.

I also think Nigel is old enough to decide for himself and take a suggestion in good heart knowing that it is given in good heart.

In fact I would suggest if you care to do so Nigel, to check out the anthroposophist doctors just to explore how they would treat your condition. There seems to be a rich movement in England with very good people working together.

Dragon,
I much appreciate your clarification and you’re accurate, I should have clarified. It’s my impression that Western medicine abuses people terribly and one has to be careful about the treatment doctors give. Ofcourse, it also has some wonderful achievements but I’ve seen people who once the doctor dictates that they have a psychotic condition, take it for granted and feel comfortable playing out the role they’ve been labeled with. Specially in America it seems out of proportions. They then get economic support and disable themselves much more than they really are.

I’m so glad you’re still working Nigel. It’s good for the soul!

Anyway Dragon, it would be good to meet you one day. It sounds like you’re in Europe, maybe I’ll come and visit my daughter one day and we can meet. I imagine we haven’t yet met. I almost assume that most people here left a long time ago.

To Sharon and those fighting for the children and the families, bravo! I’m so glad you still have the energy to do so.

And Arthur, what great news that Mr. McCarthy is going to do another article.

248. aline - October 1, 2008

#245
sorry too,
thanks for the clarification

249. Draco - October 1, 2008

Sharon, I think you’ll find that the play wasn’t a Lewis Carroll School production but “Wandering Wings” or something like that. The only positive outcome of this is that a whole generation of children will now distrust Robert and the Fellowship of Friends.

250. sharon - October 1, 2008

Draco – thank you very much for the clarification. I would like to hear something definitive because I have been told by a couple of folks now that it was the school play, not Wandering Wings. So: are you sure?

251. Wildz - October 1, 2008

The story of the children’s play brought back memories of my experience after leaving the Fellowship of Friends in 1994.

My 12 year old son was in the Renaissance Children’s Choir. They were to give a performance at the Town Hall around Christmas time. He was very upset that I was not allowed to attend…it made no sense to him. I encouraged him to participate as a member of the choir. He was one of the few altos. I was allowed to drop him off for the performance and pick him up after the performance, but not attend.

This definitely colored his view of the Fellowship of Friends and Burton.

252. Draco - October 1, 2008

Sharon, no I’m not certain about that.

253. alan davis - October 1, 2008

Goes to show, my greatest fear
a knavish speech sleeps in a foolish ear
and yet here we are
licking wounds long gone
on this mortal plane
even insanity has gone insane
so say a prayer, for us all
and you may find
reality is peace of mind.

254. nigel harris price - October 1, 2008

Dear Elena, whalerider and Dragon

To give a brief answer to your posts about my bipolar affective disorder would be trite and not tell you too much about something that is basically a chemical imbalance in my brain, affecting my states of consciousness (from ‘turd’ to ‘god’) and which, I have
found, has to be dealt with with help from synthetic drugs. Even dopamine, which is the substance affected by the stresses which cause my condition, is, in itself, a chemical. To be perfectly honest
to you, Elena, I am not too attracted to the idea of self-hypnosis – what I have found to be belonging to my Self, is not to be buffered. Self-understanding and the realization that, at times, I need help from mental health professionals, whom I can trust, is the greatest strength I can encourage in myself. I will write more tomorrow morning, when I have had a good night’s sleep…..Nigel.

255. tatyana - October 1, 2008

Jack, what is your e-mail?

256. alan davis - October 1, 2008

For those who recognize my name, I wish to express thanks for letting
me vent, I wish you all well, Knit your souls back and don’t let anything bring you down! It’s a hardball world and yet kindness still exists even in strangers. My sorrow to all those hurt, and only the best of wishes! Sincerely, Alan L. Davis

257. fofblogmoderator - October 1, 2008

241, 253 & 256 are newly moderated

258. James Mclemore - October 2, 2008

If you have not already seen this.

The simple joyfullness of play…….

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=TMCf7SNUb-Q

259. Across the River - October 2, 2008

225 spoonful

Thank you for sharing your experience with the balancing act. We do indeed always have to start from here, it’s true. Last week as I looked through the ‘In Memorium” pages on the GF site, I totally revisited the emotional reality of another time and found yet another dimension to this “letting go, moving on” journey. Very bittersweet. BTW, I find both your icon and blog name very sweet (but I’m thinking Mary Poppins???!)

*********************

And related to the other information about being denied entry onto Robert’s hallowed grounds for the select few, what about the cemetary? If I wanted to visit the site of a loved one’s grave, isn’t public access part of the law regarding property designated as a burial ground?

Don’t the unwashed masses have feelings too? :’-/

*********************

220 Another Name

Of course people are moved by many reasons to sign the petition. Maybe in some cases I wouldn’t be in agreement with someone else’s reasons, or they with mine, yet still we share the wish to expose the abuse. If the ‘we’ you refer to includes all, then those who still participate in the Fellowship can apply whatever reasons they find to not sign the petition, just as anyone else might do!

The petition, GF website, documentary, arrangements of ‘mixed’ events – all approach the same end, to expose the false premise of the Fellowship being a real school and provide expression of some universal truths. The secretive nature of the Fellowship has served well to protect, promote and secure it under Robert’s watchful eye, while the petition invites scrutiny in the most public way. Maybe that causes conflict for some while others feel strongly that the time has come.

260. Ellen - October 2, 2008

Sharon, Draco,

I don’t have any more first hand information about the play of the play. An amazing example of the arch absurd, isn’t it?
Someone who is living in OH could give us fuller details?

But what seems to be coming home to Fellowship members, is the paranoia and negativity needed to maintain their illusory boundaries. I suppose these people really believe in the myth of the Lower Self, the myth of the negative “former student”, and thus feel the need to protect themselves from such “hydrogens”. My friend who related the story to me originally (over a very bad telephone connection) did say that the whole event seemed incindarary with people simply overreacting to a rather simple situation.
********
Another friend (who was probably unaware of the children’s play fiasco) did say that the energy at E_____ L_____’s funeral was very HEAVY (her emphasis on the heavy). The cemetary and reception were better. I do not know if former members attended the funeral. I did hear that finally it was “approved”, but I can’t say whether that’s true and whether any ex-er’s went. I heard that many chose to remember E_____ L_____ in silence, together or apart, as they had done with G________ B______.
*********
Many of these current events illuminate very powerfully the descending octave of the Fellowship. That mirror that students have been polishing so diligently is now, not reflecting a very pretty image. Would that it were otherwise, but it is not.

261. spoonful - October 2, 2008

259. Across the River – October 2, 2008

Now I have nothing against Mary Poppins (Spoonful of sugar makes the medecine go down… etc), but I didnt’ have Julie Andrews in mind when I adopted the monika “Spoonful’.

It’s actually a Blues lyric composed by Willie Dixon and made famous by Howlin’ Wolf (click on Spoonful next to post number to hear song) – as well as by Cream and other artists.

The combination of Wolf’s voice and the pertinent lyrics really hit the spot for me. Though now you’ve got me wondering what the song would sound like if Julie Andrews sung it! You couldn’t get a more diverse voice.

Here are the lyrics if you’re interested:

Could fill spoons full of diamonds,
Could fill spoons full of gold.
Just a little spoon of your precious love
Will satisfy my soul.

Men lies about it.
Some of them cries about it.
Some of them dies about it.
Everything’s a-fightin’ about the spoonful.
That spoon, that spoon, that spoonful.

Could fill spoons full of coffee,
Could fill spoons full of tea.
Just a little spoon of your precious love;
Is that enough for me?

Could fill spoons full of water,
Save them from the desert sands.
But a little spoon of your forty-five
Saved you from another man.

262. nigel harris price - October 2, 2008

To those wondering about bipolar affective disorder and medications……….

Don’t forget that I have been taking various substances for my ‘illness’ since 1989. So, to answer Elena, “Is it possible to go without chemicals or to have some sort of alternative/holistic therapy?”, I don’t know. Because of this long time with ‘states’ of varying degrees and high/low alternations, I know that you can go for some time without medication, but, at ‘crunch’ time of the play causing stress, if you have not been prepared with adequate medication (mine are normally ‘downers’ for manic episodes) then there will be very little resistance in your system to the adrenalin/thyroid/dopamine flood activity, which will send you ‘off the rails’ and cause impractical activity (induced by thoughts of the same nature) which calls in the authorities and can lead to a sectioning. The trouble is, we all have to live in, and of, this world, and on a day-to-day basis. (There might be some insight into why REB may have had some sort of higher state activity, but is now ‘milking it for all it is worth’ and why he is so sexually predatory – I was once told that I had ‘turned on’ a whole pub-full of women whilst in one of my high states and that was part of the reason why I had to be sectioned – for everyone’s good). I am in the process of writing a little booklet, entitled, “The Years Between” – about the mental health maze in which people can find themselves – and hope to get it published by Christmas through the mental health authorities. Put in your orders now!…..Nigel.

263. sharon - October 2, 2008

I was told last night by an OH resident that the children’s play was NOT connected with the charter school, but MR’s private theater group, W__d__ng W___s. Thanks, Draco, for putting me on the path to ask for the correct info!

What a strange upbinging our kids have growing up in OH. So unworldly on one hand, and so cynical on the other. So many contradictions, and we as parents could not be effective at helping them to process and understand, since we ourselves were so busy buffering them.

264. tatyana - October 2, 2008

Thank you Nigel for your story. I am amazed that you can talk about it from such a sober place and have so much understanding how to separate yourself from an illness.

I just recently came to a conclusion that RB has a mental illness. For those who never had any experience with mental illnesses it is not so easy to come to this conclusion. The common believe is that if one is ill he will be looking like a crazy person in the movies or a monkey. But in fact it takes some time for an unexperienced and untrained mind to see what really goes on.

I was in the relationship with a student who had symptoms of mental illness, but because he was an older student and also because people in general mind their own business, I was quite confused for a few years.

What you said about the sex energy during the “high state” and it’s effect on others is very true. One has this vital energy which makes a person child-like open and irresistible. But when you get hooked on it you meet the whole new way of looking at the reality, which can be even more confusing if you are a spiritual seeker and open to all kinds of strange mysteries. One of such looks on the reality is that he knows you better than you know yourself, because he sees you from a higher state and knows your soul. And when he makes you suffer he actually makes suffer not the real you. And at times all this sweet sex energy turns 180 degree and becomes a hellish anger and violence triggered by who knows what.

And even when I did come to a conclusion that the person I was with actually mental it was not so easy to break up with him. First, because the experience of love, intensity and compassion were much deeper than in “normal” relationships. There was this feeling that if I love him unconditionally and be pure in my heart he will somehow miraculously heal. And second, I did not trust my intuition enough being often discouraged by friends “to not believe the I’s and the queens”. I even managed to bring him to infamous E..n H…s for a consultation. But I was not allowed to his office and was not asked any questions.

When I talk to the RB’s “boys” I see a very similar state I was in. It is a mix of love, pain, sex energy, hope, fairy-tale thinking. This is why I say that mental illnesses are contagious.

It is pretty tragic to wake up to a fact that we were followers of a mentally sick person. Is it not, dears?

265. lauralupa - October 2, 2008

Fellowship children go to heaven, life children have more fun

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bWAl31G-f1E

266. elena - October 2, 2008

At home, or at least somewhere that pretends to testify for it I sit outside my sister’s ample four-car garage that has been turned into a living-dining-cloth hanger, -washer-restaurant-dog house with a purple finely woven hamack. The garden too is inside if one can call “garden” the trees and the bushes with a black and white cow that moos thirty feet in front of me and the range of Andes mountains that offer themselves in the horizon.

It is a five bedroom one bathroom small house on a small one large acre parcel with two huge water tanks on either side of the house that remain full from the consistent rain. It is an hour away from Bogotá in the Cold River area of Tabio. The only big thing here is the wooden dog house that could fit a whole family of grown puppies and a mother but not the five grown dogs that my sister has adopted including one of mine and I support. A small tree-like fifteen feet high “siete cueros” with its deep violet flowers stands out at the corner and a yellow shrub stands behind it. Rolled carpets, drawing and painting tables and stands, rest in the corner where no artist has ever touched them giving testimony of another unfinished project and the potential of a different one!

After more homes than I can bother to count and enough marriages to give away, after more lifetimes than I can give account for, who would still dare to believe in a home that could contain one for the rest of one’s life? There’s more freedom in loosing than in owning; more stability in this chaos than in any of those built up structures that I so longed for in another time.

Books, pictures, sculptures, furniture. My grandmother’s table, my parent’s teak shelves, the painted butterflies, Picasso’s child and a dove poster, Jaime’s human figures. Almost everything calls out to me asking me to acknowledge ownership and beyond the pleasure of the recognition is the aloneness of a nomad who no longer wants to belong. A house, “the house”; leave it. Even the dog could continue to stay with the sister; I’m going nowhere; that is where I want to be. Here where you all are, in the Public Square, I’m at home.

Maybe this answers part of your question of why I like the blog Arthur; it’s alive!

Nigel love, you sound so much like yourself in your last post, what a treat¡ No matter how long you`ve been taking things your soul is still alive and clear. I insist on checking out the anthroposophis doctors. I went to see one and he was so vain I hated taking his medicines but they still worked; they are that good¡
Depression in my humble opinion is an illness of the I, the soul if you wish. It can be healed. I know it. Never believe there is anything that cannot be healed because it`ll put you already in hell. Dying is not a problem, it`s how we live that is important.

Big hug to you and all, Elena

How are you doing Steve? and you Sheik? and Bruce where are you? I miss you inmensely, got you stuck in me heart¡

267. arthur - October 2, 2008

Elena,

The Blog is very alive. That Appel-Democrat reporter spoke highly of you. He was impressed with you as we all are.

Alan Davis called me on the telephone and we spoke for a lot of minutes.

Unoamino sends links and so does Lauralupa that could fill my day with good vibes. Thanks Jack.

Then there’s Bruce, Whalerider, Yes-sir-ree Baba, vera-mente, Nigel and all these other souls coming in and giving of themselves.

I just had a “life-friend” visit. He has PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). Don’t we all to some degree? I told him, I am Finally where I am supposed to be.

Night before last I had a blow-out with a neighbor with “dementia” about him cutting down one of my “healing Plants”.

I live in a wooden framed house without toilet, bathtub, shower, sinks, kitchen cabinets, stove or all the necessities to make life “completely” comfortable.

I have four dogs and I meet all their requirements. Shots, food/water, exercise and Love.

I have a fifteen year old girl who comes and cleans my bedroom and living room. She is a good worker.

I have a homeless man sleeping in my backyard.

The blog is alive, e la vida para me, tambien.

Thanking everyone for their contributions.

268. James Mclemore - October 2, 2008

Just a short note to thank you all for being here, and thanks to the Sheik for starting it. I found this blog just about 1 year ago, and began to soon realize that it was helping to heal a part of myself and my past that I did not even know needed healing, as it had been almost 30 years since I left the fof.
I feel like I got a lot more than I gave. So many wonderful posts and great links. I have had little to contribute, and in fact over the last 7 to 8 pages I had the feeling that the times I did post, it may have even taken away from the momentum rather than add to it. I would read back what I had posted, and it often just sounded like someone talking to hear himself.
I am glad to see the petition is taking off. I have the feeling and I hope that it finds the right ears and eyes. If nothing else it may help some innocent seekers not fall into the fellowship of friends trap, and that in itself would make it worthwhile.
Anyway, I wish you all well, and thanks again.

269. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - October 2, 2008

Sharon said: ‘What a strange upbringing our kids have growing up in OH. So unworldly on one hand, and so cynical on the other. So many contradictions, and we as parents could not be effective at helping them to process and understand, since we ourselves were so busy buffering them.’

It wasn’t until my child got into his teens that he admitted to me how confusing it was to have one parent (in) and one parent (out) and all the contradictions that came with it. I believe this has been detrimental to him and caused him a lot of emotional pain.

270. Wouldnt You Like To Know - October 2, 2008

Re: 41/~260. Ellen – October 2, 2008
Perhaps ‘incindarary’ should be:
‘incendiary,’ no?

Incendiary, as in: deliberately provoking inflammatory circumstances. (This is a behaviour that is highly polished, and superbly implemented, by many in Fellowship of Friends, as a means to test the degree of persons’ being in the area of non-expression, and transformation of, negative emotions. It is, or borders upon, sadomasochistic behaviour as a cult ural paradigm – often being a classic example of dysfunctional normal human compassionate emotional behaviour and typically embodying the obtuse FoF bastardization of ‘lines of work,’ and called: fourth line of work – work on other people (often as a buffer to work on one’s self.))

271. Wouldnt You Like To Know - October 2, 2008

‘Re: 41/~260’ should have been:
‘Re: 51/~260’

272. dragon - October 2, 2008

Hello Elena, Nigel, Arthur, Lauralupa, Unoanimo and M____ wherever you are, wish you all “One More Ride on the Merry-go-round” again and again….and joy.
This evening we are all tired (long and happy working day) but we (family) are sitting here with our friends drinking a glass of wine, eating pasta and salad.
It would be good to have you all here. The whole table knows the FoF Story+the blog and we are discussing this system.

The shamanistic atavar on the GF is only a sign, a identification mark for only one person in the FoF. This person knows the meaning and we/I hope one day…. That’s the reason and nothing else.
It is curiously but our cat’s name is Isis.

Arthur, the sweet Emilie Autumn was the idea of my daughter (young ladies) love Emilie’s music.

Elena, Steve has my e-mail..

Nigel, you are the manager of your bipolar affective disorder, I am sure.

Best wishes

yours “read after burning, please turn..” dragon

273. jack - October 2, 2008

Tatyana.
Its at the bottom of the petition page. ( I’ve been getting a lot of spam recently so wont post it here as well, although I dont know if they can harvest them automatically from here.)
James
Thanks for the dolphins! That is so wonderful.
——————————————–
A friend is not someone you can lose.
all the best
Jack.

274. tatyana - October 2, 2008

I did sent you an e-mail yesterday on the address at the bottom of the petition, but did not get a reply, so I thought it was a wrong e-mail.

275. nigel harris price - October 2, 2008

Thanks to all who have been patient with my description of my bipolar. Sometimes I feel it is something I would never wish on anyone else and sometimes I feel it is something I would never want to be without (the vast strata and ranges of emotions). Anyway, it is part of me and I would welcome anyone asking specific questions since I believe there is much to be discovered about ‘states’…..Nigel.

276. nigel harris price - October 2, 2008

(email to student asking about the onset of my bipolar disorder)…..

Sometimes I cannot separate the actual emotions of growing up with what may be the beginning or onset of the bipolar disorder. I had a rich and varied childhood, being moved from town to town in the South of England due to my father being in banking. I recall being unable to deal with other children’s emotional states (crying/laughing) and making silly comments. I went to a
boys-only boarding school from ages 11-16 and recall being pretty moody there. I think my emerging sex energy was pretty well buffered, although I never got into any normal relationships with girls until I had left that school (leaving aside teenage crushes). One ‘high’ I remember was when, on the evening of my foundation art course exhibition, I got drunk/manic and turned my mum’s car upside down in a field. Two years later, I joined the FOF and have recounted
my history on the blog, should you like to go back one or two pages. Feel free to contact me about anything that helps your own understanding of things…Nigel.

277. tatyana - October 2, 2008

Nigel, can you tell what page and numper of the posting of your history in FOF?
Thanks!

278. nigel harris price - October 2, 2008

Hi tatyana

The page and post number are PAGE 51/POST # 146. Happy reading and if you ever feel like you want to get in touch on a personal level about BPAD, I am on aprhys@nigelprice.net. You may also find going to Google: ‘bipolar affective disorder artists’ AN EYE OPENER! (conscious beings by the proverbial bucketload!)…..Nigel.

279. nigel harris price - October 2, 2008

copy and paste from aforementioned Google site-

What is Bipolar Disorder?
by Colleen Sullivan, Suite101.com
Bipolar Disorder is a serious mental disorder of mood or affect. The word “Bipolar” literally means having two poles. Extreme mood swings from mania to major depression characterize this disorder. Everyone can relate to the word mood. We are all happy, excited, sad or depressed at some point in our lives. Bipolar Affective Disorder (Manic Depressive Illness) is a biochemical imbalance that causes gross mood changes from the high reaches of mania to the lows of severe depression. For the one percent or twenty million Americans who have this condition it can mean hospitalizations, a life time of medication, disability at an early age and the reduced income associated with it. Bipolar Affective Disorder can be life threatening.

People with manic depressive disorder can and do go over the edge, often becoming self destructive and sometimes losing touch with reality. Their lives can seem unbearably painful.

Bipolar Affective Disorder is nobody’s “fault” – parents are not to blame for the way they raised you, nor is the individual to blame for failing to deal adequately with the stresses of life. The cause of Bipolar Affective Disorder is unknown and at the present time there is no cure. There are, however, effective treatments available.

There are several recognized forms of Bipolar Affective Disorder as shown in The Bipolar Spectrum below. Following it are definitions of common terminology regarding the illness.

Hopefully one day soon there will be a cure for this illness that has impacted harshly, not only on bipolars, but on their families, friends and society.

280. nigel harris price - October 2, 2008

another quote from the same site…..Nigel.

Bipolar Illness and Creativity

Kay Redfield Jamison PhD of Johns Hopkins University, in her book “Touched by Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament” estimates that the rate of bipolar illness is ten to forty times higher among artists than in the general public.

Certainly history shows that many famous creative people suffered from this disorder. Artist Vincent van Gogh, composers Robert Schumann and George Frederick Handl, poets Sylvia Plath and Robert Lowell and writers Virginia Woolf and Ernest Hemingway all suffered from Bipolar Affective Disorder. Virginia Woolf, in a letter to a friend wrote “as an experience, madness is terrific, I can assure you, and not to be sniffed at”.

Creative bipolars sometimes do their best work when in a state of hypo mania. While depressed they are at a standstill and while manic they are too frenetic to accomplish a great deal. They worry about the effect that treatment will have on their creativity.

Generally treatment will channel their creativity and allow them to be more creative over the long haul. Certainly it does not take away from their creativity and allows them to work at their art more consistently.

Recommended Books:
The Noonday Demon : An Atlas of Depression by Andrew Solomon
The Depression Workbook : A Guide for Living with Depression and Manic Depression by M. A. Copeland, et al.
Self-Coaching: How to Heal Anxiety and Depression by Joseph J. Luciani

(P.S. I can also recommend Jamison’s first book ‘An Unquiet Mind’)

281. Richard M. - October 3, 2008

261 Spoonful

Another song by the Great Howlin Wolf

MEET ME AT THE BOTTOM

Well, now meet me in the bottom,
Bring me my runnin shoes.
Well, now meet me in the bottom,
Bring me my runnin shoes.
When I jump out the window,
I won`t have time to lose.

When you see me streakin by,
Please, don`t be late.
When you see me streakin by,
Please, don`t be late.
Well, when you see me movin,
You know my life is at stake.

Well, I hope you see me,
I come streakin by.
Well, I hope you`ll see me when,
I come streakin by.
She got a bad old man,
You know, I`m too young to die.
Boy, I got to leave here.
Fore I get caught in there.

282. Ellen - October 3, 2008

Nige,
Thanks for all the juicy info on your “Illness”. I’m ready to order one of your books. Post details to us on how to do that? (or did you already and I missed it?)

283. unoanimo - October 3, 2008

Hello James ~

You wrote ~

“I would read back what I had posted, and it often just sounded like someone talking to hear himself.”

__________________________________

Yes; well, this is it, isn’t it? Aren’t ‘we’ Narcissus(es) trying to drink the pond dry that holds our reflection-fascinated, so that we can get up, off the ground, and rescue Echo?

284. Across the River - October 3, 2008

261 spoonful

Great youtube – sweet 😉

268 James

I’m a fan.

285. James Mclemore - October 3, 2008

283. unoanimo

“Aren’t ‘we’ Narcissus(es) trying to drink the pond dry that holds our reflection-fascinated, so that we can get up, off the ground, and rescue Echo?”
**

unoanimo, I thank you for that. There is definitely that feeling of being on the ground and ‘fascinated’.
I tried to contribute when I could to what is the apparent external purpose of the blog, and it is difficult to describe, but I learned the most about myself and what still binds that character ‘fascinated’ to that ‘ground’ in those moments just before hitting “say it!” and sometimes those moments afterward when someone inside sometimes wished they had not hit the button.
I saved something you wrote quite a while ago because it pierced me and challenged me deeply and reminded me of something I must have already known.

unoanimo once said, about using a ‘key’ :
“the key, the only key your spirit has ever held, its physical body and its manifestation/incarnation into this physical life, and DO something with it that makes no one else smile before you do or have.”

I don’t know if it will rescue Echo, but it kind of feels like it is finally time for me to find and DO that something that will make me smile first.
Thank you again.

286. dragon - October 3, 2008

Dear Nigel, 03.10.08

Thank you for all informations!

Could you feel a difference in quality concerning your illness (the periods up/down, the intensity up/down and the intervals) during your FOF membership?

I think apart from the theory of “genetic vulnarability” there may be differences for you and it would be interesting for other “FoF-outsiders” to gain an insight into this aspect of the FoF world.

The self-hypnosis (sh) of the FoF is this a powerful trigger? How does it (sh) works? May I receive a “description” of this special sh in your own words?

Feel so free to refuse the reply in case of whatever.

PS great silversmithonian work Nigel!

287. dragon - October 3, 2008

Dear Elena, 03.10.08

“It’s my impression that Western medicine abuses people terribly and one has to be careful about the treatment doctors give. Ofcourse, it also has some wonderful achievements but I’ve seen people who once the doctor dictates that they have a psychotic condition, take it for granted and feel comfortable playing out the role they’ve been labeled with. Specially in America it seems out of proportions. They then get economic support and disable themselves much more than they really are”

Your impression is a representation of the events although

1.Unfortunately the ideal of the “responsible” patient doesn’t work at any time.
2.Psychiatrists are human beings as well.
3.The balanced/unbalanced chemistry as described by Nigel does exist but it is also science/theories in flow.
4.Some people are not able to fight against the role they’ve been labeled with.

Today here is holiday. The wether crazy: hail with sunshine!

Elena don’t forget: you are “fire”:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=BdDD9JX-Tyg

PS the blog is alive and it is like medicine you ought to take the benefits according to your own personality and your needs.

288. whalerider - October 3, 2008

elena:
My heart goes out to you. You have returned to your roots that as you describe now seem exposed to the sun and wind, rubbed raw from the elements. But the tree is still alive! Roots run deeper than the eye can see. The more time you spend there nurturing and healing yourself with what fed you as a child, the more new soil will appear to cover and protect your roots.

I hold the image of you in mind of you with your friends playing music, singing and laughing late into the warm tropical night.

I agree with you that the “depression” label is often misused and misapplied by drug companies who have an interest in enabling the public to diagnose themselves and pressure their doctors to prescribe drugs to make the feelings go away. When depressed about a great loss or trauma, we once called it mourning or a grieving process. Sometimes that process can take a few years to play out. Are those diseases of the soul or are they part of a natural cycle of life?

I do hope you keep your fire alive and take up protesting at the Bogota Center.

289. spoonful - October 3, 2008

281. Richard M. – October 3, 2008

Don’t get me started on the Wolf. “Meet Me At The Bottom” – I agree, really up there. “Smokestack Lightning” gives me goose bumps just thinking about it!
If there is one performer I regret not seeing, it has to be the Wolf.

Sam Phillips* once said of him: “When I heard him, I said, ‘This is for me. This is where the soul of man never dies.’ The greatest sight you could see would be Howlin’ Wolf doing one of those sessions in my studio. His eyes would light up and you’d see the veins on his neck, and buddy there was nothing on his mind but that song.”

*This is the Memphis record producer whose list of discoveries included Elvis Presley and Johnny Cash!

What has all this got to do with the Fellowship of Friends you may be asking? Well how come Howlin’ Wolf wasn’t included on the list of conscious beings? He performs a song called the “44 Blues”, for heaven’s sake!

290. Kid Shelleen - October 3, 2008

Chester Burnett was on the list of 44 conscious beings helping the FoF. At least, he was on the one handed to me at my perceptive studunk meeting in ’84. Perhaps they gave me the wrong list, ’cause I think Bo Diddley was on there too. Hmmmm…

291. Richard M. - October 3, 2008

289 Spoonful

“Meet Me In The Bottom” pertains to the FOF in that the lyrics describe a person realizing his life is in danger and acting on the urgency to leave a really bad situation.

Not exactly Shakespeare, but to the point.

292. elena - October 3, 2008

Arthur and Dragon, James and all.

These little pieces of our lives are so good to listen to. Thank you Arthur and Dragon.

Nigel, we must be so undeveloped down here that they never called it bipolar disorder and dealing with it cut and dry has been the rule which means that it is possible although I might not be as severe a case as you or others. Thanks for sharing your knowing.

Whalerider, thanks, have great fun with your project.

I don’t have internet and my sister’s place is far so it won’t be easy to connect for a while. All for the better. Take good care of your selves.

293. dragon - October 3, 2008

Elena, Arthur

just lectured on the appeal-d. article.

cheers!

294. spoonful - October 3, 2008

291. Richard M. – October 3, 2008

I can relate to that. I wish someone had brought me my runnin’ shoes. I was still wearing my vineyard boots when I got out. Perhaps that’s why it took me so long to leave!

295. brucelevy - October 3, 2008
296. Renald - October 3, 2008

154 spoonful

“It’s a wonder that we still know how to breathe”

A good many of us can be found in the Greater Fellowship “In Memoriam“ in spite of their youth and vigor. Too many lost the ability to accomplish exactly what it is that we chose to be born on this earth to do……..breathe…..live.

Too many bought in to that garbage that manages to convince loving people that we are born to drop the body and become angels of sorts. Even those that don`t love don`t deserve to be brainwashed into that cesspool, Time may very well be a factor, but every minute counts.

Tatyana, all the Tatianas and all the Tanyas, welcome into the fresh air. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy and last but not least Enjoy!

297. somebody - October 4, 2008

From the call of the Loon:

“When I was a student at the university, in the evenings I worked in a bank. They had a huge vault, and one evening I decided to try my gym locker combination in a bank. When I touched it, I set it off. It was connected directly to the police switchboard and the police descended on us and told everyone to hit the ground. My c-worker said that I would not be working there any longer! It was an early start from Influence C. It was the wrong combination.”

Love, Robert

298. unoanimo - October 4, 2008

October 02, 2008 11:23:00 PM
By Ryan McCarthy/Appeal-Democrat

Former members of the Fellowship of Friends want state officials to investigate the Yuba County-based religious group, contending the nonprofit organization uses donations to fund “the extravagant lifestyle” of its leader Robert Burton and that unpaid labor of foreign nationals developed its Yuba County property.

Workers with religious visas have made possible the vineyard and commercial winery at the Fellowship’s 1,171-acre headquarters in the Sierra foothills community of Oregon House, the petition states.

“This fact has been intentionally hidden from authorities,” according to the petition. “Workers are required to donate back to the church the largest portion of their salary, leaving an average monthly wage of about $460.”

The assertions are part of the petition reviewed by anti-cult attorney Ford Greene, who represented a former Yuba College student in a 1996 lawsuit against the Fellowship.

The suit in Yuba County Superior Court, which asserted that Burton had seduced the former college student, was settled before going to trial and its terms remain confidential.

The petition asserts that most lawsuits against the Fellowship are settled financially and “largely concealed from current followers.”

Girard Haven, 63, senior minister with the Fellowship, has said Burton does not grant interviews. Haven could not be reached for comment Wednesday or Thursday about the petition, which began circulating last week and asks that regulatory agencies and officials in California and elsewhere investigate the Fellowship.

The Web site for the Fellowship lists centers in American cities including New York and Los Angeles and states the organization was founded in 1970 in the Fourth Way tradition, also known as “esoteric Christianity.”

Greene said he consider the Fellowship to be a cult similar to Scientology, although not as well known or with as many members.

“Scientology’s got Cruise and Travolta,” Greene said of the two Hollywood stars. “The Fellowship has wine and olive oil.”

The Sierra foothills property has land for olive oil production, as well as a winery.

Greene said the Fellowship is dominated by Burton.

“He’s kind of like the Queen Bee,” Greene said. “And others are drones.”

The petition includes nine letters said to be from former Fellowship members. Among the letter writers, only Oregon House resident Elena Haven, 49, is identified by name.

Haven in her account states that Burton initiates sexual contact exclusively with young male church members, often 30 to 40 years younger than the 69-year-old Burton.

Haven left the Fellowship in 2007 after 17 years. She could not be reached for comment about the petition and her letter.

Arthur Brooks, 67, who is among former members signing the petition, said that in 2007 he discovered a Web site of former members of the Fellowship and was shocked to read about the lawsuit filed in 1996 against Burton.

Brooks, who now lives in Texas, said he has been out of the Fellowship for more than a quarter of a century.

“What I want to do is prevent somebody like me going into it,” he said about signing the petition.

Contact Appeal-Democrat reporter Ryan McCarthy at 749-4707 or rmccarthy@appeal-democrat.com.

299. Bares Reposting - October 4, 2008

The below was posted to the forum:
Why not sign the petition? on the Greater Fellowship website:

‘A few years ago FBI agents showed up at our door. They said they knew we were former FOF members and wanted to interview us for an investigation they were pursuing. I don’t think it would be appropriate to discuss the direction of the questions or what they told us about the investigation. Of course, we answered their questions honestly and openly.’

Religious institutions may hold beliefs that are protected by the U. S. Constitution but not all of their actions are so protected. Any actions taken by a religious institution that is against the law and/or a violation of the U. S. Constitution and/or a violation of persons’ constitutional rights, is not protected.

Speaking truth to power is a great way to level the playing field.

300. Yesri Baba - October 4, 2008

more from the Loon

“After the bank job fiasco I tried two other retarded enterprises. Finally, I hit upon the right combination, The 4th Way of stealing money.”

Robert ( I’m an angel, so can I suck your dick…pretty please?) Burton

301. fofblogmoderator - October 4, 2008

Sorry comments are closed for this entry

%d bloggers like this: