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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 49 September 8, 2008

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

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Comments

1. Silver Lining - September 8, 2008

Doesn’t Sarah Palin look like some of our own poster girl leaders and center directors from the old days? Mrs. Tro–la, Mrs. Ba-th, the younger Ms. Gru-ald?

I think those of us who’ve lived through the FOF have had first hand experience with the soul destroying effects inflicted on a population of open hearted citizens by authoritarian zealots marketing god and the Apocalypse.

I SAY GET ON THE PHONES AND VOLUNTEER TO MAKE CALLS TO SWING STATES FOR THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN!
http://www.barackobama.com

The FOF was just practice for what the whole country is facing now!

Speak your Truth!

2. Reality Check - September 8, 2008

NOTE to fofblogmoderator:

Slide up to the top of the pages you are moderating with due diligence and have a look at this,

“Excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.”

Now take a look at post number: 46/289. brucelevy – September 8, 2008

“287. Daily Cardiac

“You’re a fucking lunatic.”

In addition Bruce has made several claims that he knows who this person is and used his name leaving out only a few letters. The person is well known and I recognized the name immediately and so did probably a hundred other readers. Why the double standard? Is Daily Cardiac not a participating member of this blog? Or is he is not counted as legitimate because you feel the majority does not approve of him? I simply observed in a post that another poster didn’t seem “normal” and I received an irate, even irrational in my opinion, email from you reminding me in so many words how generous you are to allow me to post here and that you were thinking of removing portions of the post that you felt were hurtful to your friend whalerider. Yet here we have one poster calling another a “fucking lunatic” and as far as I can tell not a word out of you – is that correct?

Go up to the top of the page a remove the hypocritical lines that have only ever been selectively used as an excuse to get rid of people the previous moderator deemed dangerous to the questionable cause of raving like banshees against the Fellowship. The double standard of only using the hypocritical rules against “outsiders” while ignoring the infractions of your friends throws this entire discussion further into illegitimacy.

3. arthur - September 8, 2008

Popeye, “I yam what I yam”.

Robert Earl Burton, “I yam what I think I yam”.

A Goddess in a man’s body?

4. spoonful - September 8, 2008

Silver Lining 1

Yes… I remember some Palin types in the FOF – “Pitbulls in lipstick” in positions of authority – about the same age, but usually not as attractive.

But McCain / Palin? Wow! You can’t invent these characters… it’s a spectacle to watch. Who needs soaps when you have American politics? British politics is so boring by comparison!

Mind you, I wont be encouraging anyone to vote for Obama – last time the Brits tried to encourage the yanks to choose the obvious candidate, they took offence and rallied behind Bush…

But why do I get this sinking feeling McCain will win – only to be run over by a hit and run driver on a snow mobile? Of course, you’ll have your first woman president!

Politics? Don’t we love it? All that power, control and manipulation. Just like the FOF seen inside a goldfish bowl.

5. Rear View Mirror - September 8, 2008

Note:
“Reality” Check has assumed several different names on this blog, and consistently regresses into abusiveness and mean-spirited dialogue, and seems to have made it his mission to discredit people who have posted intelligent, thoughtful, and helpful insights into the workings of this cult. This is why the previous moderator has banned him in the past.

What Bruce is doing on the blog is very different. He points out lies when he sees them, and points out the creepy nonsense and obfuscation that are typically found in cults like the Fellowship of Friends. He uses harsh language, and as far as I can tell he’s been willing to discuss it if anyone presents a strong and sincere argument that he’s wrong.

I see Bruce enhancing the dialogue here. I see “Reality Check” continuously lowering the discussion into a mean-spirited argument. It reminds me of the cult itself… Any opposition and any dissent is called weakness. Opposition and dissent don’t need to be weakness, any more than leaving the Fellowship of Friends needs to be a weakness. It’s this idea that it’s counter-productive to “one’s work” to criticize the Fellowship that keeps so many people in the FOF at bay, and disallows them from finding their way out. Nothing new — its The Way of the Cult.

6. will coyote - September 8, 2008

Spoonful, if You think it is useful I can rewrite 293 in italian…

7. Reality Check - September 9, 2008

5. Rear View Mirror – September 8, 2008

“Reality” Check has assumed several different names on this blog, and consistently regresses into abusiveness and mean-spirited dialogue, and seems to have made it his mission to discredit people who have posted intelligent, thoughtful, and helpful insights into the workings of this cult.

***

There have been a few others certainly, but my contributions on this blog with insights into the workings of this cult have been consistently more substantial and more informative than 95% of the posts that have cluttered up the nearly 50 pages and the reason for that is I actually search inside myself, in my memory and my knowledge of the cult, for an undiscovered detail that has yet to be mentioned, an occasional fresh point that rings true. It doesn’t matter, some of the characters that populate this space prefer the intelligence of Bruce shouting “unfuckingbelievable” and “what a fucking lunatic.” Why? Because I don’t spend a lot of time saying “Luv Ya” to every ignorant effusion of instantly reversed emotion that leaps onto the screen out the now negatively identified heart of a defected cult member. I have to say it right now so that there are no mistakes: I don’t love you people. I don’t feel connected to you ex-comrades and fellow refugees from the end-of-the-world fantasy club of sterling gay-consciousness. I don’t “Lov Ya.” Unfuckingbelievable? Believe it. I don’t shake your hand, I don’t kiss your ass and I don’t feel the camaraderie or kinship that sometimes emerges between those walking out of similar experiences. But this is nothing new. Even when I was member of the FOF I didn’t join in the coombyya of it all. What you get from someone like me is some discernment, some reason and usually more insight than “I Luv Ya All” or conversely “Fuck You Asshole.” There is an occasional “Cunt” and “Shut the fuck up” I’ll admit. I’m irritable around the attitudes of hypocrisy and simple-minded bigotry. I’m not all that friendly in the first place, but I don’t want your friendship. I don’t need it. I’m more interested in getting some real facts about the FOF cult and any specifics concerning genuine ‘consciousness’ while offering some facts myself. Some constructive explorations of the human condition through object lessons are not all that bad either.

Burton’s Fellowship of Friends is a menace to society and that fact needs to be explained in an intelligent fashion so that those criticizing it do not appear to be far less reasonable than those in the cult. I think my efforts here have advanced that aim more than most.

I still remember during the reign of the last moderator that after a Fellowship member posting here was treated to every foul word and insult known to man by the noble ex-cult members he finally made a clear point by saying “fuck you” to the moderator and was instantly banned, an absurdly petty act of self-indulgent power. No intelligent outsiders assessing the argument between the two points of view are going to be convinced of the ex-cult members’ integrity under such lopsided circumstances. Here are the stated rules:

“Excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.”

They are not even remotely uniformly enforced as policy and are therefore hypocritical. They need to be removed from the site.

8. brucelevy - September 9, 2008

RC

Just so people are not led astray by your misinterpretation, I don’t think you will find in any of my past posts the word “phony” to describe you. Narcissistic, sociopathic, significantly damaged, puffed up, obnoxious, extremely offensive…yes, but not phony. I don’t think there is anything “phony” about your beliefs in your own objectivity, greatness and worth. I’ve also pointed out that occasionally you’ve brought out some important points, only to be neutralized by your own stuff soon after.
And also, thanks for pointing out something that slipped by me…your utter lack of empathy, compassion, love and understanding for anyone other than yourself. Your apparent pride at your misogynistic view of others you and I can probably agree is one of your most prominent traits, only we see it as two very different things. You see it as an indication of worth and objectivity, and I see it as significant damage. But chacon a son gout.
It was never “dick waving phony” as you stated, it was “dick waving” as in uncontrollable pathology, as it is with DC.

9. Reality Check - September 9, 2008

The layman’s common definition of “sociopath” and “narcissist”: anyone that snubs the enthusiastic emotional slobbering of the jack-of-hearts and its together-we-are-always-right hallucinations.

10. Craig Dockter - September 9, 2008

Now one damn minute Bruce…I swear I thought this was the Ananda Swami Kriyananda (Donald Walters) personality-cult board. It’s the same shit different predator. Now these bozo’s, Walters and Burton, must be true soul (sole) mates.

http://www.anandainfo.com/services/index.htm

11. Daily Cardiac - September 9, 2008

Opus 111 – 48 300:

“You are giving too much credit. I find him shifty, intellectually dishonest, a master of obfuscation and incapable of sincere self-examination.

I don’t recall you saying anything like this about anyone else’s comments.

You can really see into my inner motivations sufficiently to say that I am “intellectually dishonest”, or “incapable of sincere self-examination” ?

Would my position as the only supporter of FoF on the blog for the last month or so have anything to do with your comments?

12. Craig Dockter - September 9, 2008

It appears Burton suffers from the ‘Tetris Effect’. People who have spent a long time at some repetitive activity before sleep find that it dominates their imagery as they grow drowsy, a tendency dubbed the Tetris effect.

Also called the hand-job; this effect has even been observed in amnesiacs and cult predators who claim no memory of the original activity. When the activity involves moving objects, as in the computer game Tetris, the corresponding hypnagogic images too tend to be perceived as moving. Ultimately the subject goes insane.

13. elena - September 9, 2008

I’m with RVM in this Greg, your personal agenda is so obvious and I just don’t buy it, in fact it is difficult to even look at it. There is no agenda in Bruce no matter how much he insults people, he’s like a light post that simply says stop when someone tries to overrun it or a reference point that whoever doesn’t take into account, gets lost. And I agree with you, I’m bias, I also have an agenda that is not absolutely fair to all the participants and if you get abusive I’ll agree to get you kicked out, that is, if you don’t bore me out before we get to that. Between you and Daily Cardiac it is hardly worth coming to the Public Square. You’re like zombies trying to find victims without ever answering to the deep human questions that we’ve been trying to pose but rather trying to deviate them into your own minute sphere of self justification and comfort, so much like the inner circle of the Fellowship who dragged everyone down their personal agenda and we passively followed.

It’s interesting that Daily Cardiac is as needy of writing on the blog as you or I have been. Have you noticed the ego in the writing? As if one could put it out in ink and paper that this is me with the hope of finding one’s self but when one’s written everything in the ink pot one realizes that that is not one either and that the best part of one’s self has slipped out of the ink bottle and is ready to trickle down the stairs into another world.

It is also interesting that we’ve managed to have some cohesion here while there was a common untitled aim to expose the Fellowship and even from me, destroy it, but now that even I have lost the hope for such enterprise we are falling apart. The understanding that there is no one else willing to invest themselves into the constitutional confrontation of America with its factual reality, leaves me with no where to go. I’ve lost the third force. How could McCain not get elected when Robert Burton can continue to be King? Some think he’s too small to matter but if Cults like that are accepted as normal, if in the small sphere of people’s lives, no one is willing to change what they can, what would make one expect that anything above them could be changed? “Change begins at home”.

Perhaps the real feature of our time is that people feel helpless and hopeless. That we’ve fallen into a “laissez faire” or “let it be” in which we feel we’ve managed to do well if we can just run along with our little nut and hide in the nest before anyone else catches us; The middle class mentality that doesn’t care if the majority gets wiped out as long as they can get the job. It is not that we are animals but that we have agreed to behave like them convinced that culture is not the freedom to chose our own destiny but to experience our own downfall.

I wonder how many wars will be necessary before we crawl into the possibility of practicing our humanity. How many more times we’ll watch the politicians and others in power decide who, when and where gets shot because they just happened to be the soldiers at their service.

I wonder why the perspective of retrieving to my own little camp in the Caribbean, making delightful glass sculptures to lighten the darkness seems so unattractive even if the soul could express in the colors the richness of its findings. It’s true that life IS and that each one of us can find it where ever we are, without needing to meet here for tea to remind each other that we are alive. It is all we are really doing here but the idea of retrieving to our own private well being without having finished the job makes me wonder how alive are we really? I’ll drag my losses down the beaches of the Caribbean and remember that the Fellowship gets richer everyday with someone else’s wealth and someone else’s well being will be slowly sucked out from event to non event and from the endless submission to the soulless hierarchy.

And then who says it is not O.K. to let it be and walk down the geography of our continents into a world in which one can again feel the pleasure of aloneness? To let go for the nth time of everything I thought was my own? So untrue, I could never let it be mine, I had lost enough times before to call the Fellowship my own and the deep distrust between my self and the rest was there from day one. How could I have trusted it when it was so obvious that no one there had died? Even I was too alive. Even now, being alive is an agenda in which every human being sends out an s.o.s light wishing to participate in his community, laughs, screams and models his or her little body around the fire telling others that s/he’s alive. When there is no community like in the Fellowship, the gift is returned to the giver with a bill to pay for the intrusion and told to hide behind the leaves for his indignity. Shame is the other side of the coin of envy just as dignity is the other side of the coin of trust.

Did you see the film “Into the Wild” about the American young man who goes by himself to Alaska, lives in a bus and dies from eating the wrong plant? He had chosen to live on his own convinced that life was about his personal encounter with it, sick of the consumerism of his family and modern life. He lives over a hundred days knowing he is dying and writes at the end: “happiness is only real when shared”.

It is very tempting to stop writing because no word will ever replace the pleasure of sitting next to each other. I’ve been with older people a lot in the past year and it has been very interesting to find that all they want is to be heard. Isn’t that what we all want? And to hear too? A dialogue? Or are we all going to settle for Daily Cardiac’s and the Fellowship’s monologue? I was hoping I’d become more quiet as I got older like the very old people I remember from my childhood, but the older people I’ve been with recently are desperate to tell their story. Desperate. As if they had lived all those years without a keel and needed to put some sense into it, come to terms with the absurdities and recover the dignity. Isn’t that what we are also doing here? And once finished, won’t it be lovely to retrieve to the all encompassing silence of one’s own presence where everyone is? My love to the few of you who are left, thank you for listening.

14. whalerider - September 9, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
“I don’t recall you saying anything like this about anyone else’s comments.”

Let me remind you then.

The term you used to describe my comments was “Babel”…to essentially mean the same feedback as Opus 111 has given you, only less words.

BTW, do you think (or believe) your inner motivations are so special and on some different level than anyone else’s?

That smacks to me of FOF elitism…form, no content.

Your inner motivations are to cover your ass, same as everyone else!

And if you sincerely examined yourself as you claim to be able to do, you wouldn’t be in a cult. (I would have no problem lining up other health professionals to back me up on that assertion.)

But then again, you don’t think it’s a cult.

Tell me, what makes you think (or believe) the FOF is not a cult?

15. Opus 111 - September 9, 2008

Daily Cardiac
Would my position as the only supporter of FoF on the blog for the last month or so have anything to do with your comments?

Perhaps, it has something to do with it, because I have been unable to understand, or even relate to any of your positions on the FOF.
The main thrust (in my view) of this blog, even though one may argue it was not started with that intention since the Sheikh never met Burton, has been to expose Robert Burton’s abuse of power, for his own selfish sexual and monetary gratification, as the head of The Fellowship of Friends.
You have not done anything to change the increasingly clear perception of Robert Burton’s true nature, as the testimonials have accumulated over the past two years. After all, you can deny, but cannot change the accumulation of facts.
Your approach instead has been to argue that what the leader does in private could not matter to the true disciple, since Burton is awake (‘conscious’) and is forever guided by the true leaders of his group, “C-Influence”. Besides, FOF “works” for you: the ideas make sense, the methods are effective, you see progress.

Where I find you intellectually dishonest (and emotionally repugnant) is in your persistent refusal to answer the simple questions: 1. How do you reconcile your subjective perceptions (as in coming from one who is not conscious) of – “FOF works for me, I am comfortable with my position here” – with the facts that show Robert Burton to be a corrupted, greedy and sex-obsessed selfish man? 2. What does conscience (that word again) mean for you, as defined in general in the 4th way system of ideas and specifically, in light of the various, but consistent testimonials about Burton’s encounters with young and inexperienced followers, his predatory practices, his emotional, spiritual and material blackmailing. How do you confront the image those stories give you of your leader?

Are you working on being enshrined as the fourth monkey who can hear, see, speak, yet denies all? Or do you strive to be the heroic survivor of this mythic war on your lower self, for ever ignoring the collateral damage, piling up at your sides?

16. Old Fish in the Sea - September 9, 2008

Elena: “Perhaps the real feature of our time is that people feel helpless and hopeless.”

How right you are, and that is what makes a cult attractive – it generates hope. The group promises together a better life, a better state and a superior civilization. Robert fed and played with our hope and it gave us at times a certain strength as all faith does. But the hope became a bit absurd – too absurd for some of us to accept and the contradictions and failures of Robert and FOF leadership eventually dashed our hopes on the rocks.

Now that many of us have left we have to find new hopes, new aims, new reasons to live. We can and do help each other with this. We understand the emptiness. I think many of us are are tired of the overly grandiose promises of immortality and the city of paradise. We find the pretentiousness and air of superiority distasteful. On the positive side, I think we have become more simple. It is enough to be alive, to love, to work and to try to be honest and unpretentious.

I think this is where love and presence start.

But many are not ready yet to give up their cultish hopes. I can still remember when I did not want to look. I still remember the part that became intentionally uncurioius so I could continue with dream. I still fall into that and it perhaps invades even this thought.

Some still in are afraid that they will wither into normality without the FOF supporting, and reinforcing the hope. Some are afraid of their lower self devouring their life in a biological and hopeless state. I am not sure that we can do much. Many of us don’t have much if you take away the dreams. We let them go only when we are ready.

But I feel now that life and love begins when the dreams give some space.

17. You-me-us-they - September 9, 2008

Reality Check and Bruce.

Beside the fucking, shit and balls you might share, there must be something Bruce does differently to produce this obvious different effect.
Could it (difference) have to do with “intention”?.

18. Ellen - September 9, 2008

#13, Opus 111,

I think you nailed it. DC’s investment is the latter case:
He strives to be the heroic survivor of this not-to-him-mythic war on his lower self, for ever ignoring the collateral damage, piling up at his sides. (Because that is what heroes do.)

And his reason for posting here is to sound that lone voice of truth amongst the madness of Babel.

I understand it, I’ve been there, too.

Duality is absolutely intrinsic to the structure and nature of the Fellowship. That structure created this blog. And it would all vanish in a cloud of dust if Robert Burton were to realize his true nature as Being-Consciousness-Bliss, but instead we have a radically different scenario, don’t we?

19. Daily Cardiac - September 9, 2008

Opus111 – 13:

“You have not done anything to change the increasingly clear perception of Robert Burton’s true nature, as the testimonials have accumulated over the past two years. After all, you can deny, but cannot change the accumulation of facts.”

First of all, let’s take FoF and Robert out of the picture and speak in a general sense, at least to begin.

Ultimately, people believe what they want to believe; not always, but as a rule. One can see this in any arena; politics, religion, sports, economics, etc. This blog is no different. The truth can be objectively stated, but that does not guarantee that someone lacking of truth will recognize it, or want it if they do recognize it. People have attitudes,and certain truths don’t fit into certain attitudes. Attitudes are harder to let go of than truths are to embrace. So, the truth is often the one left out in the cold.

I’m telling another side of the story and not the side being told by ex-members. How much truth is contained therein remains to be seen, and may not ever be seen. If someone is genuinely looking for truth they will find it no matter where or how it is presented; this much I can say with certainty

Where is the logic or reason to say my truth cannot be The truth? All comments on the blog are equally non-vetted. Does a majority in agreement constitute truth? That certainly conjures up an interesting world.

You say I’ve “not done anything to change the increasingly clear perception of Robert Burton’s true nature”, yet if you really read what I’ve written at face value (and tried it on for the sake of following my thought processes) you would see that there has been a plausible reasoning put forth as to how some of these areas can be misunderstood by ex-members, as well as insights that explained other possible motivations for behavior deemed unfit by ex-members.

The fact is you simply don’t, won’t or can’t, buy into my explanations, and that in itself does not disqualify them from containing truth, in whole or in part.

And I really don’t see where anyone has successfully deconstructed, or refuted (proved wrong) the main issues I’ve been pointing out.

The main thrust of ex-members logic is basically “a conscious teacher should not or would not do what Robert does”, and that’s not enough of a reason to claim as truth. Who validated your/their compasses to be true north?

If you want to offer evidence that some or all of Robert’s actions disqualify him from being conscious you need to come up with something other than “it’s morally wrong” or “a conscious being wouldn’t do that” or “so many have been made to suffer.” I have addressed why it’s necessary for anyone seeking enlightenment to suffer greatly, to suffer much more than they care to. The prize is dear and the price is equally dear.

There is a strong reasoning, or logic, to support the fact that a conscious teacher (any conscious teacher) cannot behave, or manifest like his students want him to, and if he did he would descend to their level rather than they ascend to his. It is they who are seeking enlightenment, and the teacher who is pointing the way, not the other way around. Again, take RB out of the picture briefly, and ponder this statement on it’s own merit.

Teachers do what they do; they confuse, they turn the disciple’s world upside down, they disorientate, they create intentional chaos in order to uncover mechanical chaos, they contradict themselves (or their station). I say “they” do it, but in fact it is done through them. They also help dislodge those who are stuck, and some of these go out and others come closer in. They do all this to break the small will of the disciple so that he or she will distinguish the lower from the higher in themselves, which they cannot do at the time of their entrance into a school.

Most of the ex-members here bought into that when they joined the FoF. Now that they are on the other side of their FoF experience some of them proclaim that people don’t need a teacher to awaken, and that in fact we are all already awake, and we always were, we just didn’t know we were. It’s not what I encounter but all things must be possible, so maybe they are right. Then again maybe it’s a predictable ploy to help bring sanity into a sans school world.

20. nigel harris price - September 9, 2008

C’mon, you guys! Don’t you see what is happening? While you all ‘discuss’ the form of DC’s and RC’s drivelling, trivial formatoriness, Burton is quietly (behind the scenes) implementing the ‘Great Escape’. I have no doubt he will try to be out of the country (going to Egypt, because the Arabs there are far less likely to ‘do a deal’ in extraditing him) when his case comes to court. Mexico will only be his stopping off point to ‘muster the financial troops’ who will fund his retirement homes. Over to you!…..Nigel.

21. nigel harris price - September 9, 2008

16 Daily Cardiac

You posted your blog before I had composed post # 17. How about “THE NIGEL HARRIS PRICE (is not ‘dear’, but an ‘ordinary angel’ [Hue and Cry – Remote] and actually not a ‘seeking to confuse’ Head of the FOFfers) but someone who can facilitate the bringing into focus of the sycnhronicity that brings about consciousness? Actually, you, DC, have no ‘I-dear’!…..Nigel.

22. spoonful - September 9, 2008

DC 16

“Teachers do what they do; they confuse, they turn the disciple’s world upside down, they disorientate, they create intentional chaos in order to uncover mechanical chaos, they contradict themselves (or their station).”

Does that make you a teacher?

There is something called “common sense”, you know. I don’t trust your love affair with logic. Burton tries to give an explanation to everything too. True feelings get locked out. Enter the machine…

23. lauralupa - September 9, 2008

DC 16
The main thrust of ex-members logic is basically “a conscious teacher should not or would not do what Robert does”, and that’s not enough of a reason to claim as truth. Who validated your/their compasses to be true north?

If you want to offer evidence that some or all of Robert’s actions disqualify him from being conscious you need to come up with something other than “it’s morally wrong” or “a conscious being wouldn’t do that” or “so many have been made to suffer.”

“Gurus, like fathers, are in a context that gives them enormous
power because of their disciples’ needs, trust, and dependency.
One reason incest is a betrayal of trust is what a daughter needs
from her father is a sense of self-worth not specifically linked
to her sexuality. Sex with the guru is similarly incestuous because
a guru ostensibly functions as a spiritual father to whom one’s
growth is entrusted. Having sex with a parental figure reinforces
using sex for power. This is not what young women (or men) need
for their development. When the guru drops them, which eventually he does, feelings of shame and betrayal usually result that leave deep scars.” (p.94)

“It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship
and not know it. In fact, knowing it can interfere with surrender.
Any of the following are strong indications of belonging to an
authoritarian group:

1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has
thoughts or feelings contrary to the accepted perspective is made
to feel wrong or bad for having them.

2. Whatever the authority does is regarded as perfect or right.
Thus behaviors that would be questioned in others are made to
seem different and proper.

3. One trusts that the leader or others in the group know what’s
best.

4. It is difficult to communicate with anyone not in the group.

5. One finds oneself defending actions of the leader (or other
members) without having firsthand knowledge of what occurred.

6. At times one is confused and fearful without knowing why. This
is a sign that doubts are being repressed.” (p.57)

I have addressed why it’s necessary for anyone seeking enlightenment to suffer greatly, to suffer much more than they care to. The prize is dear and the price is equally dear.

“But a cult in decline has more trouble selling itself.
. . Members and the guru become withdrawn and the focus gets more internal, insular, and isolating. . . The fun is over. The rewards are now put into the distant future (including future lives) and are achievable only through hard work. This not only keeps disciples busy and distracted, but it is necessary because the flow of resources that came with expansion has greatly diminished. This glorification of work always involves improving the leader’s property (the commune or ashram), increasing his wealth, or some other grandiose project.” (p82)

There is a strong reasoning, or logic, to support the fact that a conscious teacher (any conscious teacher) cannot behave, or manifest like his students want him to, and if he did he would descend to their level rather than they ascend to his. It is they who are seeking enlightenment, and the teacher who is pointing the way, not the other way around. Again, take RB out of the picture briefly, and ponder this statement on it’s own merit.

“When abuses are publicly exposed, the leader either denies
or justifies the behaviors by saying that ‘enemies of the
truth’ or ‘the forces of evil’ are trying to subvert his true message. Core members of the group have a huge vested interest in believing him, as their identity is wrapped up in believing in his righteousness. Those who begin to doubt him at first become confused and depressed, and later feel betrayed and angry. The ways people deny and justify are similar: Since supposedly no one who is not enlightened can truly understand the motives of one who is, any criticism can be discounted as a limited perspective. Also, any behavior on the part of the guru, no matter how base, can be imputed to be some secret teaching or message that needs deciphering.”

Teachers do what they do; they confuse, they turn the disciple’s world upside down, they disorientate, they create intentional chaos in order to uncover mechanical chaos, they contradict themselves (or their station). I say “they” do it, but in fact it is done through them. They also help dislodge those who are stuck, and some of these go out and others come closer in. They do all this to break the small will of the disciple so that he or she will distinguish the lower from the higher in themselves, which they cannot do at the time of their entrance into a school.

“Gurus undercut reason as a path to understanding. When
they do allow discursive inquiry, they often place the highest
value on paradox. Paradox easily lends itself to mental manipulation. No matter what position you take, you are always shown to be missing the point; the point being that the guru knows something you do not.” (p.74)

“By holding gurus as perfect and thus beyond ordinary explanations, their presumed specialness can be used to justify anything. Some deeper, occult reason can always be ascribed to anything a guru does: The guru is said to take on the karma of others, and that is why his body has whatever problems it has. The guru is obese or unhealthy because he is too kind to turn down offerings: besides, he gives so much that a little excess is understandable. He punishes those who disobey him not out of anger but out of necessity, as a good father would. He uses sex to teach about energy and detachment. He lives an opulent life to break people’s simplistic preconceptions of what ego-loss should look like; it also shows how detached and unconcerned he is about what others think. For after all, ‘Once enlightened, one can do anything.’ Believing this dictum makes any action justifiable.

People justify and rationalize in gurus what in others would
be considered unacceptable because they have a huge emotional
investment in believing their guru is both pure and right.”
(p.52)”

quotes from “The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power”
by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad

(thanks Aline)

24. will coyote - September 9, 2008

To D.C
A teacher teachs in his way and not in the ways of the pupil.A master zen cut a cat in half to teach his pupils. They took it.
So do you can say a teacher teach, when the pupil take it.
If a lot of people( or all the people) don’t take the big lesson on suffering by the action of the master is not a thing to thin about ?
For Elena
Surely there is the ego in the writing. As if one could put it out in ink and paper that this is me with the hope of finding one’s self but when one’s written everything in the ink pot one realizes that that is not one either and that the best part of one’s self has slipped out of the ink bottle . ” But if happen the magic of communication, if some part of you resonate with me is not just ego, I call it Love.
I don’t think the aim is change the others, the world, the bad things (and in relativity scale the suffering in the Fof is little compared to bigger comunity, state , etc) . The aim is offer our life, the things we do, the way we do them , to ourself and others. At the beginning of the blog many people were grateful to all people who write, because they show pieces of themselves.
I have a little D. C in myself( that trust in guru’s keys) , I have a bigger R:C (that think the others is a lot less smarter than me so I cannot love them, just have pity )…
And many others, so maybe one is so confused that he writes to cheek who is now…

25. fofblogmoderator - September 9, 2008

10, 12 & 16 are newly moderated.

26. Mick Danger - September 9, 2008

H. L. Mencken is often misquoted as saying: ” No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.”
I hope this explains the American political psyche.
Why do we act like ill-bred cowboys? Same reason a dog licks it’s genitals.

27. veronicapoe - September 9, 2008

> A master zen cut a cat in half to teach his pupils.

What an asshole. His followers should have bloodied him up a bit before delivering him into the hands of the constabulary.

28. arthur - September 9, 2008

veronicapoe beat me to the keyboard. A Zen master cut a cat in half?

For me the lesson would be, “like what IT does not like”, then I would catch the next Greyhound bus to the next Zen Master, If I were so inclined.

29. somebody - September 9, 2008

To Students:

“Dear Friends,

Robert wanted to share this photo with us that was taken on one of their recent travels. He often teaches, ‘To hear is to obey’.

Koran: We hear and obey; and keep our duty to Allah.

Philokalia, Symeon the New Theologian: Obey the call straight away. God rejoices at nothing so much as our promptitude.

He observed there were 4 letters in the word ‘obey’ and a student pointed out it also contains the word ‘be’.

With Love,…..”

30. brucelevy - September 9, 2008

Craig, you old rattlesnake.

31. Ames Gilbert - September 9, 2008

Daily Cardiac,
I don’t believe anyone is refusing your right to express your beliefs and understandings any way you want. Likewise, I am also free to keep pointing out that your teacher has stated his belief,

“Conscience is just a collection of ‘I’s; anyone accumulating too much material there should leave the school”.

Daily Cardiac, it is impossible to point out what conscience is to someone who has no operating conscience. Burton, in the quote above, states exactly what value he places on conscience. Further, you have over and over stated that you rely on his claim that he has worked on himself enough, and wrought changes enough that he has ‘escaped from prison’, is qualified to help you escape, using the 4th Way analogy. So, he has effectively put aside/squashed/eliminated his ‘collection of ‘I’s formerly known as conscience. I believe him; his acts as if he does not have, nor has ever had a conscience. You aim to emulate him, to learn from him, follow him. So, you must be busy putting aside/squashing/eliminating your conscience. Those whose consciences have awakened enough to act on them must, by definition, experience a huge gulf between themselves and those, like you and Burton, who do not have or value their consciences. I cannot explain the meaning or value of conscience to folks like you any more than I can explain the color purple to someone who has never seen it.

As I have said many times before, this one sentence by Burton should send anyone interested in the Fourth Way screaming from the Fellowship of Friends, for it reveals the utterly fraudulent nature of Beloved Teacher, the fact that he knows nothing of the Fourth Way apart from parroted phrases, and that he has no conscience himself. The purpose of a 4th Way school is to awaken conscience in parallel with increasing consciousness. They go together, they cannot be separated. Daily Cardiac, this means that you are not in a 4th Way school, you are a member of the faith–based Church of Burton.

________________________________________________________________

Random thought #87,223:
Generalizing right along, the Japanese as a population were ruled by the Samurai warrior class for many centuries. During this time, the majority of those who resisted or spoke out were ruthlessly executed. In the short term, this would lead to a more compliant and complaisant population by emphatically changing current attitudes (at least in public). But, this would also, more often than not, remove ‘uppity’ genes from the gene pool. So, after a long time, this culling effect would leave a genetically more compliant and complaisant population.

This would also apply to the Fellowship of Friends. Those who speak out, or act in defiance of the FoF’s peculiar norms, are removed, leaving the most compliant and complaisant…

Random thought #87,224:
Various estimates of the percentage of sociopaths (people born without conscience) in the general population range from 2% to 4%.
Maybe the time-space body-continuum/entity known as the Fellowship of Friends acts as a filter, inadvertent or not, for separating sociopaths from the rest of the population. Thus if a number in the order of 15,000 folks have gone through the ‘filter’, then 2-4% would leave somewhere between 300 to 600 sociopaths amongst the people remaining. And most of the rest would be normalized to sociopathy. Appealing to these people’s consciences would, by definition, be futile.

Maybe our work is nearly done!

32. dragon - September 9, 2008

Dear Mister Burton,

1.) L’homme n’est ni ange ni bête, et le malheur veut que qui veut faire l’ange fait la bête.

Blaise Pascal (Pensées, VI)

2.) Il n’y a point de bête au monde tant à craindre à l’homme que l’homme.

Montaigne (Essais, II, 19)

3.) Nos chimères sont ce qui nous ressemble le mieux.

Victor Hugo (Le Misérables, Troisième partie V)

33. lauralupa - September 9, 2008

Craig Dockter 10
Since after all I am still around (old habits die hard, don’t they?) I’d like to give you an update. Some of you may remember that a little while ago I mentioned an old friend who had gone to spend her holidays at the Ananda community in Assisi, Italy.

She was supposed to visit me last Sunday on her way back home, but then called to say that she was spending one more week at Ananda. They had asked her to work on some urgent translations.
“Do you feel that they are trying to pull you in?” I asked.
“No, it’s me, I really don’t want to go back, I feel so good here. Isn’t life strange?”
“I am just a bit worried for some things I have read about Kriyananda.”
“Oh, I have heard those stories about the lawsuits, they are all lies. The accusations have been made up by a rival school.”
“It’s natural that people at Ananda would say that, don’t you think?”
“I don’t know… but this community is so beautiful, amazing, it’s like living in a realized utopia.”
“Well, I am happy that you are happy” was all I could answer, and then the conversation moved on to less uncomfortable topics.

The tone in her voice was so familiar, so “in love with the place”, I felt like I was hearing myself speaking at the time I moved to Renaissance. Twenty years ago, this same girlfriend warned me that I had become rigid and strange after joining the FoF, and that my student friends were odd…
of course I didn’t listen.
Isn’t life strange?

34. Opus 111 - September 9, 2008

Daily Cardiac 19

I know this is getting old.

Where is the logic or reason to say my truth cannot be The truth?

Are you making reference to your infamous “Sexuality 101” expose of recent memory? Those lines of yours displayed such deep ignorance of sexuality and an almost robotic, complete lack of emotion that they would be an embarrassment to repeat.

The fact is you simply don’t, won’t or can’t, buy into my explanations, and that in itself does not disqualify them from containing truth, in whole or in part.

Your version of sexual enlightenment is perhaps fit for dog training school, not for the human experience.

Teachers do what they do; they confuse, they turn the disciple’s world upside down, they disorientate, they create intentional chaos in order to uncover mechanical chaos, they contradict themselves (or their station).

On what authority do you make those statements? If it is yours, how many teachers have you met and worked with? If it is the 4th way, I suspect you are leaving large portions of inconvenient material. What don’t you read again what the 4th way says about teacher-disciple relationships, about conscience (that word again)? Ames just posted about that and he sums up my point of view better than I could.

35. whalerider - September 9, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
“First of all, let’s take FoF and Robert out of the picture…”

Thank you for revealing your inner motivation.

Here you are attempting to cover your ass as well as Robert’s under the guise of “telling the other side of the story”. You are essentially saying that it’s not the perpetrator’s fault; it’s the victim’s fault. That makes my skin crawl. You’d make a good criminal defense attorney.

“There is a strong reasoning, or logic, to support the fact that a conscious teacher (any conscious teacher) cannot behave, or manifest like his students want him to, and if he did he would descend to their level rather than they ascend to his.”

Well then, I hope you like the taste of semen if you plan on “ass-ending” to his level…or are you just gearing up for justifying your own dark side?

I swear you seem to me like the flip side of Reality Check!

He’s out there defending the 4th way ideas, and you are out there defending the idea cults and cult leaders are necessary.

Just because people get addicted to heroin because it works so well at creating a euphoric state despite the collateral damage its use causes, doesn’t make the sale and use of heroin necessary for society.

People need cults because they are disempowered to think they need cults, not because they actually do.

Yeah, and what if we are all more conscious than we give ourselves credit for and the real ‘effort’ is to regain our personal power not give it away? IT STILL TAKES EFFORT, GRASSHOPPER, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!

And what if that was the true cosmic ‘purpose’ of a cult…to screw you over enough times until you see this weakness in yourself and take control of your own life. That’s pretty much the conclusion I woke up to, for which I paid with my dignity, although I left with my conscience intact.

You graduate from a school. You don’t ever graduate from a cult.

There is a plethora of information about the pathology of cults, which is why I believe, you are dodging my question:

What makes you think the FOF is not a cult?

36. Reality Check - September 9, 2008

Obvious Human Principles (that are seldom understood)

To knowingly take advantage of innocence in order to get personal satisfaction is a crime. What is “innocence?” One aspect of innocence is the misguided but trusting projection of the higher values and finer ideals naturally existing in the minds of the innocent onto someone the innocent person believes is above reproach due to his position as the central focus of the aspiration of others. To take advantage of the willingness of an innocent but mistaken trust is a crime. The one taking the advantage always clearly understands that what is being projected onto him is a misperception and rather than correct the misperception the criminal encourages it and uses it for the advancement of his own selfish satisfaction. The mistake in this ageless scenario between the “shrewd” and the “inexperienced” is the projection of what seems to be natural ideals born in the breast of every normal human being. The projection of higher human values onto someone that is rumored to possess these human values due to the accumulation of followers is the innocent mistake that makes every damaging cult possible. To seduce the otherwise unwilling using their trust against their own self-interest and welfare in order to satisfy desires is clearly a crime. There is no innocence in the mind of the seducer because it is in all cases clear that the victim would not surrender sexually if it were not for the position of the one lusting after what he normally could not obtain. To manipulate for selfish gain and satisfaction innocent people that have rendered themselves into a state of trust is clearly a crime. There is no question of compensation; those with integrity understand that to be the focus of trust demands responsibility toward those that have assumed the risk. Those with any integrity understand their own weaknesses and desires and are willing to put their personal wants secondary to those that for one reason or another have come to rely on the assumed decency of a public figure. To take advantage of those that have willingly made themselves vulnerable to another in order to receive something uplifting from him is clearly a crime; there can be no scenario under such conditions where the criminal mistakenly victimizes the victim. It is always clear that the victim intended to receive a benefit without being harmed in the process. To knowingly “take” while rendering nothing or an illusionary benefit in return, or to render to another what will certainly be regretted while engendering grief as the intelligence of the victim matures is a willful, selfish crime. The betrayal of trust in order to satisfy personal desires is clearly a crime; it is only justified in the minds of the defective. Willful crime against others and therefore ultimately against your own integrity always results in madness. The penalty for crime is madness. For small crime the penalty is small madness, for big crime the penalty is big madness.

37. Opus 111 - September 9, 2008

One more thing, Daily Cardiac.

They (teachers) do all this to break the small will of the disciple so that he or she will distinguish the lower from the higher in themselves, which they cannot do at the time of their entrance into a school.

When R. Burton indicates to his sex partners that “their being there at that particular moment” is the will of C-Influence and proceeds to repeatedly have sex with them in a variety of ways, in what way do you think he is teaching his disciples to recognize the lower from the higher?
When he resorts to using pornographic videos and pharmaceuticals to prime his multiple partners before the sex encounters, in what way do you think he is teaching his disciples to recognize the lower from the higher?
When he has group sex and allows young heterosexual men to subject themselves to practices for which they have no natural inclination, in what way do you think he is teaching his disciples to recognize the lower from the higher?

If the higher right for those young men is to leave this rotten environment, there are less harmful way to teach that understanding.

38. Yesri Baba - September 9, 2008

You musta knocked over Fort Knox.

39. Yesri Baba - September 9, 2008

That was for Diaper Boy.

40. lauralupa - September 9, 2008

thanks to all who encouraged me to hang around a little longer…

this was on the news today. In case you missed it:

PARIS (Reuters) – A French judge has ordered two departments and seven prominent members of the Church of Scientology in France to stand trial on charges of organized fraud, a judicial source said on Monday.

The case is the latest in a series of legal battles that have pitted the French judicial system against the Scientologists, who could be forced to stop their activities in France if found guilty.

The latest suit centers on a complaint made in 1998 by a woman who said she was enrolled into the Church of Scientology by a group of people she met outside a metro station.

In the following months, she said she paid 140,000 francs (21,340 euros) for “purification packs” and books which she said were a fraud. Other complaints then surfaced, prolonging the investigation.

Judge Jean-Christophe Hullin ruled that the Scientologists’ Celebrity Center, bookstore and seven Church leaders should be tried for fraud and “illegally practicing as pharmacists.”

The Church of Scientology is registered as a religion in the United States but has struggled to be accepted in Europe, with French authorities seeing it as a sect masquerading as a church to make money.

The Church of Scientology denounced Monday’s ruling, saying it was being “stigmatized” by the courts.

“The special treatment reserved for the Church of Scientology Celebrity Center raises questions about the equality of the justice system and the presumption of innocence,” it said in a statement.

The public prosecutor had said the case should be shelved. In a relatively rare move, Judge Hullin ignored the recommendation and ordered a trial, which is not expected to start for at least six months.

The Scientologists said the suit was “empty and concocted,” adding that the original plaintiff had been reimbursed.

The Church of Scientology, which counts actors Tom Cruise and John Travolta among its members, was founded in 1954 by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard.

It has faced numerous setbacks in France, with members convicted of fraud in Lyon in 1997 and Marseille in 1999. In 2002, a court fined it for violating privacy laws and said it could be dissolved if involved in similar cases.

41. Ames Gilbert - September 9, 2008

Random thought #87,268 (and that is just today’s count!):
Burton, like any sociopath, has probably often wondered what the poor fools of followers mean by ‘conscience’. He knows, on a practical level, it is a wonderful weakness of some sort, a weakness he has taken full advantage of all his life, and he knows he does not have this weakness. He has looked it up in a dictionary (or at least asked Linda T. to look it up for him, and report back), but dang, it just doesn’t compute. Maybe Asaf and Kevin have reminded him that the 4th Way does mention it from time to time, and have collected material about it from the workbooks and have made long 30-second summaries—the limit of Burton’s attention. WTF are all these idiots talking about? No one close to him can give any practical examples from their own experience, obviously, so he slowly starts to build a theory. Not being keen to acknowledge the input from others, even the dictionary, he invents and develops a new term, which will accomplish several purposes. First, it must lull the laity and convince them that he has devoted serious thought to the subject. Secondly, it must be ‘weaponized’ in order to use it against his followers (make them more asleep). Thirdly, it would be good if he can ‘kill two birds with one stone’, that is, remove other pesky obstacles to his dominance of the organization at the same time. Fourthly, it must be adaptable and flexible so it can be used in new or unexpected circumstances.
Got it, he’ll call it the Lower Self. Any references to ‘conscience’ can be explained by re–labeling it a manifestation of ‘Lower Self’. He can mix in little bits of truth, because he knows from long experience that doing this makes the lies more effective and palatable. And he can marshal a war against Lower Self. Bingo! An enemy to unite against! He can also lump together all the disgusting manifestations of the instinctive center that appall him under this label (but not those that pleasure him). And any thoughts of criticism of Beloved Teacher or any of his Beloved Teachings. The icing? In the future he can add or subtract to his heart’s content—whoever’s going to dare call him on it?
—Pure genius!

42. Yesri Baba - September 9, 2008

Beginning next week the ‘Fellowship of Friends Discussion’ forum will be changing its name to: ‘Diaper Boy’s Daily Blog’.

Diaper Boy will povide daily inane hyperbolic profundities. He will rail against the cult that pooped him out with the same structure of reasoning it instilled in him. He didn’t ‘get it’ in the cult so he is going to spend the rest of his life trying to fuck his own ass.
This magnanimous effort is to be commended. He is providing this service out of the goodness of his own heart, which if you recall, goes something like this: ” I don’t love you people. I don’t feel connected to you ex-comrades and fellow refugees from the end-of-the-world fantasy club of sterling gay-consciousness. I don’t “Lov Ya.” Unfuckingbelievable? Believe it. I don’t shake your hand, I don’t kiss your ass and I don’t feel the camaraderie or kinship that sometimes emerges between those walking out of similar experiences.”

Please enjoy these daily gems. If you don’t feel free to log off. In the end he may be the only one reading. But really, isn’t that the way it is already- him trying to push back and thrust at the same time?

43. Reality Check - September 9, 2008

“Excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.”

I notice the fofblogmoderator has not removed this lie from the website yet. Isn’t this exactly the kind of lie that helps operate organizations like the Fellowship? The pretence that “We live by ethics and laws here,” meaning we have a host of regulations that we only apply conveniently to manipulate and punish those not wholeheartedly “on our side.” As far as I can tell the posted rules on this site are only applied to those that cause discomfort to certain favored factions. In other words, NOTICE: typical cult principles are posted above and strictly enforced.

44. Vinnie the Fish - September 9, 2008

So sad to see the circle of love as it dies

45. elena - September 9, 2008

Will Coyote,

Both aspects exist parallel to each other. If you don’t fool your self with the imaginary picture that it was only love then you can shed the skin. Don’t you think it is a little like that? That when we manifest it is as if we were trying on a new robe and went out and modeled it? Then we come home and take it off and rest in our selves. We shed words like animals shed their feathers or skin and once gone they no longer really belong to neither us nor us to them. It is such a relief to move into one’s new season. At least this is true for me who am far from crystallizing above or below. You might be freer than I am and I will admire that freedom without interrupting the beautiful flow of purity that you so wish to spread out into. You’re like the white doves playing with water in the park fountain!

Old Fish in the Sea: “But I feel now that life and love begins when the dreams give some space”

How beautifully put! Only in my coarse language I would say they were identifications and the dreams are yet to be realized. Had we not the will to dream we would not have the will to meet here and struggle with each other. Leaving the Fellowship is the collective experience of the false personality of the group falling apart and being exposed. It is the most important crossroad when it happens to an individual, it is equally challenging when it happens to a group.

One of the questions revolves around “doing”. When false personality “does” one is identified with what one is doing and separation arises as a result, when true personality does, there is freedom from the action but connectedness is the result. In all of our lives there are different portions of both (unless we are highly developed beings which would probably be less weighed down) the idea that we are all one or the other which the Fellowship abused to demeanor us, does not seem to express reality. I for sure move with one foot on the one and another on the other most of the time but having the certainty that I am on “both sides now” is much different from being only on the “dark side of the moon!”

************************

It is good to see that some of you still have the strength to tackle with Baby Card’s monotony and that your voices are much stronger and clearer than they were a year ago.

Daily Cardiac,

In what turn of the road did you loose track of your steps and moved from yourself to the one behind you?

How did you manage to withdraw your self from the hand that extends out?

Where did you learn to speak as if words could be glued to the air and crystallize in the form, deformed?

For how long have you denied yourself the possibility of being?

Puppets indeed are as convincing as people but what does it feel like to be moved by the invisible strings of black magic?

When you renounced the possibility of playing and committed your life to working without rest giving yourself only the darkest sweet pleasures that no one else could participate in, how long did it take you to separate your self from the world?

Why don’t you share with us the unbearable sacrifices of beauty that a man like you has had to suffer to deconstruct him self from reality and deform it into the dark imagination in which the consented rape of childlike bodies by your Teacher is seen as the conscious act of a divine being?

Tell us for how many years does one have to toil under the Moon to acquire the capacity to touch and not feel, look and not see, listen and not hear?

When those like you touch with your empty hands and look with the void in your eyes, when you find a thousand excuses to not give your self time to be with another but choose to sit like an icon in the middle of the square convinced that being a cold statue is so much more appropriate than a passer by laughing at the stars, does it ever cross your soul to consider that when you die these are the things that you will carry with you?

When you crawl out of the desperate darkness with your unsatisfied cravings, numbed by the stiffness of a body that could not take your absolute rule, do you get glimpses of something that went too wrong to ever consider fixing? Must you continue to submit innocent victims to feed in the sweet scent of their loyalty and cover the horror of your sleepless nights?

Have you proved to your self that “will” is willing “to be” at no matter whose cost? That man can be both Godlike or Evil and that having the power of the devil to corrupt is so much more seductive than having the power of an Angel to protect and Oh, so much easier to practice without the horror of having to acknowledge anything but one’s own evilness and yes! The fact that the world cannot be different because after all, people are nothing but their lower self?
Have you come to enjoy the darkness of your hours or is joy impossible, simply impossible in the darkness of such a life? Even though you’ve learnt to smile like if you could buy smiles in the Oregon House Store?

Why? How? On what foundation could anyone claim that it could be different? That the human being is the summit of creation and that life is the stage in which one can touch the dignity of another person by never, ever, touching them beyond it? That trust is the connectedness natural to all beings and the world the stage in which they can share?

How many years did it take the Fellowship of Friend’s Cult who betrayed its name and its people, to destroy the possibility of love? Love Daily Cardiac, love, why do you never talk about the only thing that really matters? Why, dogma in and out in that world of yours that got squared to the root of a life in which everyone could be disposed of as long as you could continue to burn? Tell me, what is really the difference between you and the devil?

How does it feel to get your cards turned around and your divinities questioned dears? You who have so proclaimed to be Angels, Gods, tell us, what if the cards turn and you are recognized as devils? Dark, inhuman, soulless abusers of naïve and innocent people serially raping young men with each and every one of the member’s consent. Victims who became victimizers? Criminals?

It is good that you write so that I never forget.

To all the people in America, to each American Citizen, to every human being in this planet, to the hierarchy of beings: there are hundreds of criminals in Oregon House, California, raping young men and exploiting naive people, please help me destroy this Cult. Their ignorance and pretended obnubilation of the facts can no longer be taken into account. Please help all those who are trying to stop it. No one should ever get close to this much darkness.

46. elena - September 9, 2008

Fofblogmoderator, reality Check can’t wait to get banned, it is some strange mechanism from his long life but it is not worth doing so, there is no reason to do so……..yet. IMHO Words loose power when they are much repeated. If you just let them turn on their own, we, the authors will have to come up with something new in our selves because even we get tired of seeing our selves.

47. fofblogmoderator - September 9, 2008

To all bloggers,

Regarding;

” Excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

I notice the fofblogmoderator has not removed this lie from the website yet. Isn’t this exactly the kind of lie that helps operate organizations like the Fellowship?”
*********************************************************************

Reality Check seems to have a strong desire to have this policy statement deleted. I did not write this policy statement. I would like any of you out there (especially you, Reality Check) to help me out and see what kind of wording (if any) comes to your mind about revising the policy statement in question. Should it just be deleted?

I do feel that Reality Check is making a demand of me that I don’t feel comfortable with without the council and suggestions of all of you who contribute.

48. Reality Check - September 9, 2008

44. Vinnie the Fish – September 9, 2008
[Referring to Yesri Baba]
“So sad to see the circle of love as it dies”

***

“I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.” –The Fab Four

Here’s a very good mental construction for consideration: you are already “awake” because God is already inside you. Follow? Good. It does not matter what the “ego” does because all you have to do is remember that you are God and God is looking back at you from everything and everyone. There is no “me” versus everything else, this is merely the confusion of the ego, right? Good. Your real nature and your real state is that of “Being-Consciousness-Bliss.” You are already there/here because it is built right into you. See? You don’t have to do or not do anything because it is God doing everything, inside and out. If you become unhappy because some bully is putting down your philosophy and you say he is, uh…for instance “fucking himself in the ass” it is God saying it to God. No harm, no foul. You are in fact on a mission from God to bring Him more plates of Himself. Goddamn! If your guru makes you have revolting sex with him then what is really happening is that it is God fucking God, so don’t be put off by it! If you need to kill someone because they say smart things against our new religion of “Can’t do no wrong because God made me do it” it is no crime because it is simply God rubbing out God. Getting any of this?

Pretty good buffer, right? No matter how ignorant, vile or identified ‘the ego’ gets it does not count because in our other ‘I’s we are all wallowing in (how should one describe it) “Being-Consciousness-Bliss.” So if you got some kind of problem with me then fuck you, and that’s straight from God asshole.

“The ordinary mind, refracted by the countless and contradictory promptings of different sides of human nature, must reflect the world as manifold and confused as is man himself. A unity, a pattern, an all-embracing meaning – if it exists – could only be discerned or experienced by a different kind of mind, in a different state of consciousness. It would only be realisable by a mind which had itself become unified.

“What unity, for example, could be perceived by even the most brilliant physicist, philosopher or theologian, while he still trips absent-mindedly over a stool, becomes angry at being short-changed, fails to notice when he irritates his wife, and in general remains subject to the daily trivial blindness of the ordinary mind, working with its customary absence of awareness? Any unity he reaches in such a state can exist only in his imagination.” –Rodney Collin

49. Reality Check - September 9, 2008

47. fofblogmoderator – September 9, 2008

***

Take the warning off the site and drop the pretense that everyone is under the same rules. Opt for honesty.

50. Opus 111 - September 9, 2008

#47 Blog moderator

I am comfortable with the moderator, you in this instance, making the decision to intervene/warn/ban as you see fit according to the stated policies. That is what a moderator is for and no, it is not perfect and it will not please everyone. It is however a much better solution (IMO) than having the inmates run the asylum.

You also have the option to warn someone privately since you see everyone email address.

I wish I could believe that by suggesting removing all rules/boundaries, Reality Check is indeed only looking for more honesty.

51. Old Fish in the Sea - September 9, 2008

47 – blog Moderator

“Excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion”

I suggest prefixing the statement with the words “At the Moderator’s discretion, excessive abuse etc…”. This states up front that it may not be fair from every perspective and that the moderator can decide what is and what is not excessive. Hopefully this will satisfy RC’s need for honesty while at the same time, making it clear that abuse and personal attacks are not desirable and may, if deemed excessive by the moderator, lead to banning.

With regard to this, I think the moderator should try to see that the principle is applied as evenly as possible.

52. Daily Cardiac - September 9, 2008

To Lauralupa – 23:

These individuals, Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad, seem to lump all “Gurus” into one bag, and that’s the bag of falsity. I assume you have read some of their books. Do they talk about modern day real “Gurus”, as in Conscious or Enlightened Beings? I would venture to say they don’t, but am open to stand corrected.

If they don’t, what do you think about the omission? Do you think they would be able to distinguish a real Enlightened Being from an impostor?

Most critics, let’s say reviewers of restaurants or movies, can identify the good ones from the bad ones, and articulate what makes something (a movie) good or bad. Do these people operate on this essential level?

53. Ames Gilbert - September 9, 2008

Blogmoderator,
My ‘vote’, for what it’s worth, is just leave it be. The phrase is a lie in Reality Check’s opinion; that is just one more opinion in this sea of opinions. I think it is overstating the importance of the phrase—or the blog—to say that it “helps organizations like the Fellowship”. If anyone takes notice of the blog at all, it would, IMO, be on an individual by individual basis, and such an individual would hopefully look at the thing as a whole.

Thanks for volunteering your efforts!

54. veronicapoe - September 9, 2008

52/Daily Cardiac

Show a little initiative and read the book yourself instead of asking someone else to characterize it. Who knows, you might learn something.

55. Daily Cardiac - September 9, 2008

To fofblogmoderator – 47:

If you adhere to the preexistent rules and enforce them you will be for all intents and purposes banning around 5 to10 bloggers, who I doubt could write a post without using profanities or resorting to personal attacks.

On the other hand if you take Old Fish’s suggestion of taking each instance at your discretion you might need to hire a staff, or at least a secretary, to effectively moderate.

56. Reality Check - September 10, 2008

The “warning” about misbehavior at the top of the page should be removed if for no other reason than at least based on this one imperative objective truism alone (which I hope the moderator reads and rereads carefully and fully comprehends):

“If the old ladies aren’t afraid to go there then it will ultimately prove itself to be of entirely no crucial significance.” –Dr. Van Nostrand

57. whalerider - September 10, 2008

Daily Cardiac:

What makes you think the FOF is not a cult?

fofblogmonitor:

Don’t let reality check get under your skin. It would be more appropriate and healthier for the person who feels abused to stand up for themselves and ask for moderation by telling us how the post in question made them feel.

So far the only one who is complaining is the very person who has been banned in the past. Doesn’t that tell you something?

Hmmm….reality check standing up for daily cardiac….? cut from the same cloth perhaps…

58. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

I say just hand the whole blog over to RC and DC. That is where it’s headed isn’t it? Like the Cult Awareness Network is now owned by Scientology. If it worked for them…

59. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

One can see how little of use is currently coming out of the blog. It’s primarily the masturbatory rhetoric and dogma from a couple douche bags. That is the aim of the FOF infiltration isn’t it?

60. Reality Check - September 10, 2008

59. brucelevy – September 10, 2008

“One can see how little of use is currently coming out of the blog. It’s primarily the masturbatory rhetoric and dogma from a couple douche bags. That is the aim of the FOF infiltration isn’t it?”

***

Can one actually see that? What do you think Ames and Old-Man-Sea? Do you think you are putting out masturbatory rhetoric over the last several days? Because I don’t see that at all. You might be overstating the case Bruce and overlooking some significant thoughts.

The only FOF speaker right now is Daily Cardiac and he is a confused innocent who barely makes coherent sense. Hardly a threat to the sanity of the world.

Then there is my post up at number 36, hardly dismissible douche bag dogma.

61. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

60. Reality Check

Your self-love is boundless.

62. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

No, really, it’s fantastic that you have someone to continually sing your praise.

63. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

And no, you’re wrong, it’s eminently dismissible.

64. Rear View Mirror - September 10, 2008

Or, maybe all of us get banned?

A few pages back there were some proposals to retire the blog, and leave all of the pages posted. I was one of the people who resisted that idea at the time, but now I’m wondering.

IN my opinion, there’s occasionally a sustained number of really thoughtful, interesting, and informative posts about the FOF — posts that can help us see the truth about the cult and heal from the experience — and to move on to a healthy, spiritual, and productive life outside the FOF prison walls. These posts also seem helpful for current members who may on the verge of leaving.

However, when this happens, a few posters step in — almost like a team — to discredit those posts and to change the subject.

Many others respond to the “team,” and that can lead to some other interesting comments about the FOF.

However, the process goes in circles. In some ways, the energy of “the team” reminds me of a filibuster. Nothing wrong with arguing, but at times the thoughtful dialogue becomes overwhelmed by it.

As people said a few weeks ago, there’s already plenty to reflect upon here. Just leave the pages posted and move on? And link to these pages from other locations?

Ignore me and keep having fun?

65. Yesri Baba - September 10, 2008

58 Brucelevy

My point exactly.

“I don’t love you people. I don’t feel connected to you ex-comrades and fellow refugees from the end-of-the-world fantasy club of sterling gay-consciousness. I don’t “Lov Ya.” Unfuckingbelievable? Believe it. I don’t shake your hand, I don’t kiss your ass and I don’t feel the camaraderie or kinship that sometimes emerges between those walking out of similar experiences.”

Why is he here? Why does he keep coming back after being banned over and over?
Because he is sick. He needs help and he is not going to find it here.

If he is not removed I will discontinue posting as many others have done because of his participation. He is a cancer and many don’t have the defenses for it. I don’t need any defenses because I know exactly what he is and there are many IMO , including yourself, who also know.

66. Rear View Mirror - September 10, 2008

I agree. His presence here frightens people off, and turns away many readers. He knows that, and may even like it. I’m also on the verge of dropping out, whether he’s banned or not.

Blogmoderator: How about a straight-up trade. Ban both me and DC. I’m joking, but actually wouldn’t mind taking a break from this merry go-round for a while.

67. veronicapoe - September 10, 2008

Greg is part of the shadow of the Fellowship. Like you and me.

68. Rear View Mirror - September 10, 2008

very true.

69. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

I’d consider freezing the blog as is, if for no other reason than depriving DC and RC of a further captive audience for their crap. I’m sure if one of them started a blog they’d have an audience of two, and still wouldn’t be able to “hear”.

70. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

67. veronicapoe

“Greg is part of the shadow of the Fellowship. Like you and me.”

Sorry, we all have shadows, but I wouldn’t group everyone into the same tent. Very few here have as malignant a shadow as DC and RC, in my opinion.

71. a former student - September 10, 2008

I can’t believe this. . Greg is not only reappears like the evil witch in “Sleeping Beauty” but gets the whole discussion to deal with his favorite subject-which is what an wonderful enlightened and very bright being Greg is and what a victim of injustice done by those imbeciles too f*cking stupid to see what a great mind and such a wonderful enlightened and in no way immature level of being he has. Greg has a magic touch not only do all discussions he participates in revolve around him he also transforms them descending octaves corrupting or destroying anything useful in a dialogue..
I have experienced his dementia reoccurring over and over. If there is any proof of a Law of recurrence Greg is the proof. He never grows, never changes and He has opinion’s on “All and Everything” which are superior even to Gurdjieff’s and Ouspensky’s. One time I asked him to meet me personally and he began whining and crying like the professional victim he portrays on the internet. He whined so badly that some delicate and not at all hysterical ladies believed I was threatening him. I really let it go as being to serious an attack of stupid to respond to. To suggest that if he is brave enough to be such a total asshole and personally insulting online he do so in person is not a threat except to his false on line ego. It is a statement of what an immature, not too bright coward he is. I am a trained mental health and drug and alcohol counselor. I have dealt with many disturbed individuals and not attacked them. It is different speaking to someone in person. I have looked at addict’s, Alcoholics and the mental ill in the eye and had to teach them the idea that they “Change or die”. He is a particular type of internet coward more common amongst teenage boys than those over 20 . His life seems to revolve around his persona as the biggest asshole in any Gurdjieff-Ouspensky discussion. He has developed his “shtick” as well as any old borsht belt comic. He is the Don Rickles of the online 4th way. He insults people online because he cannot deal with real people. It is a insubstantial substitution for an emotional life. He is surrounded by negativity because that is the emotional and intellectual atmosphere he functions in. He transforms the online environment to something suitable for his false personality. I certainly would not go to jail for assaulting him. As I said the real threat is dealing with a real person away from the layers of protection afforded by the anonymity of the computer.
As for his personal attacks on me. There is nothing in my life I need to hide or be ashamed of. Greg’s repeated assaults on different individuals on every 4th way oriented site only show the fact that Greg has been unable to actually apply the 4th way system of personal effort, consciousness, and understanding to transform himself’. Any study of his writing shows He is only capable of formatory associate thinking in relation to ideas that require an equal emotional development to experience. He imagines and presents himself a uniquely intelligent individual. He imagines that the reason others “attack” him is because they are too stupid to see that he is right about almost everything. He is actually rather limited intellectually, has limited attention span, poor grasp of concepts as opposed to words and lacks a coherent integrated understanding of the different ideas of the system.

Rather than a particularly gifted and unique individual there is one who is seriously flawed and one who is apparently totally invisible to themselves. He sees nothing of his effect on others, has no feedback for his own actions. He is the best example of a sleeping machine and how the ideas of the system cannot function in mechanical parts of functions on the blog. He lacks shame.

Yes I was and am An Addict, Alcoholic and Mentally ill. I also returned to College and received certificates in Community Social Services, and drug and alcohol counseling, I worked for several years in a Mental Health facility and also did academic studies in various areas. such as logic, debate, critical thinking, Writing for the Humanities, statistics and other areas. So I can and have offered to “debate” Greg. If Greg actually wanted a real logical argument by inclination and training I am equipped. Of course he doesn’t want to communicate even in the structured dialogue of an argument or debate.
He says he doesn’t like or care about these people. “These people” are his emotional life. He is the only one haunting the 4th way groups being such an Asshole. He has been doing it for years. He is like the ghost in the machine.
In terms of the 4th way both in theory and practice I have real practical experience dealing with the process of transformation both in myself and others. Greg’s claims to be a student of the 4th way make me feel tremendously ashamed at the experience of Some newcomer to the ideas who actually reads the results of his unsuccessful studies of the 4th way. His writing is imitative drivel. The ability to use good grammar, a spell check and to imitate Ouspensky’s or Gurdjieff’s style only indicates a fool at work.
As usual The Gr*gster has found that point of injustice so that once again he can attack the poor moderator and make the whole group about him. Once again he can be the perpetual victim. Over and over he is the “rebel without a clue”. Attacking those who try and serve others by moderating a group. In his limited consciousness he cannot imagine anyone being motivated by anything above his own petty grandiosity. Over and over he draws those unfamiliar with his patterns into the same circular meaningless arguments. It is always about Greg. It is unfortunate that any description of his behavior sounds so repulsive and warped that it is difficult to belief. and not think it is an unjustified personal attack on an innocent party. There seems to be an inexhaustible supply of those eager to stand up for his right to be obnoxious like many others tried to “give the poor little misunderstood victim” a break and was attacked several times by the vindictive little guy.
Thus far no one has found any other way of dealing with the Gr*gster than banning him. I don’t care much either way, I don’t check in to the blog often, don’t keep up with the current material and I post infrequently.
It is not so much that there is anything unique about Greg’s mechanical features but they are at such odds, in such direct contrast to his arrogant, grandiose ideas of himself as a more “conscious man”. It is hard to grasp how someone who goes on and on about the 4th way at such length cannot grasp that it is about transforming oneself. The 4th way is not necessary for those who are damaged. There are other forms of therapy and support groups to get over “being a victim”. None of us start off as conscious, none of us start off well, we all need to develop and transform, to give up some things and develop other attributes. There are successful programs of therapy that produce dramatic changes in the area of giving up being a victim.
Perhaps it is time for Greg to consider applying the 4th way ideas and for those who have been victimized by his tramp feature wasting others time, space and energy to not continuing to be codependents or enables in his imaginary world.
I have made an effort to edit this and spell check because when dealing with someone who is very formatory you can be speaking of eternal life and they will fuss over the grammer.
.

72. fofblogmoderator - September 10, 2008

As of this moment Greg is banned- or at least I tried to, it’s a new procedure for me and we’ll find out soon enough if it worked.

I felt he took away much more than he added, and after repeatedly asking him in private to “tone it down” he continued to do what he does so well; preach and antagonize. I am tired of seeing his name appear as a recent contributor and thinking to myself before I’ve even read his comment; “uh oh, what’s it gonna be this time?”

Sorry it took so long. I thought he deserved a fair chance to contribute again.

If you people want to shut this place down, let me know and I can shut it down.

73. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - September 10, 2008

I have been thinking of dropping out of the blog. I haven’t been reading any of DC or RC’s posts but just have been thinking about it.

I don’t believe it’s any accident that many of us are thinking about this at the same time. Perhaps it’s just time for it to end.

Aloha

74. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

71. a former student

yeah, that’s what I mean.

75. veronicapoe - September 10, 2008

Bruce, I’m not talking about your shadow or mine. I’m talking about the Fellowship’s shadow.

76. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

75. veronicapoe

oh, sorry.

77. veramente - September 10, 2008

72. fofblogmoderator

I would not rush the closure of the blog, if it has to end it will end by itself.
But it can be surprising how the energy can change here, from stagnant to flowing again.
Let us see what happens.
Thank you for your work in the meantime, sure it cannot be a pleasure very often.

78. Yesri Baba - September 10, 2008

67 veronicapoe

That is what I meant when I said I know exactly what he is.

I am sure this blog serves different functions for different people. To me it came around at a time when some other avenues were opening up, kind of surrendipidously.

This blog has opened up new lines of thinking for me and there are many things I can’t discuss because I feel people don’t have the background or common ground to participate in them. This is probably true for most everyone here. I try to translate them into language that most will, maybe, take a little different perspective on the knowledge of the 4th way and fof.

I don’t know how different it would have been for me if there was a blog like this way back when, maybe I wouldn’t have had to suffer so much alienation. I am glad it is here now for those who need it. Thank you for your efforts in bringing so much light to the facts of the history of the fof.

I remember the little fella that was teased on the playground. I remember the little fella that moved and when his friends promised to be there to see him off never showed up. I remember the little fella who would eat his lunch out the backdoor of his highschool because he was too shy to be around the other kids. I remember the little fella who found the way out of his fear and confusion and gave himself wholeheartedly and unconditionally to this way only to be thrown away like a piece of useless garbage. I remember the little fella who struggled on despite the knowing it was useless and he was lost and had lost even if that knowing was only buried in his unconscious.

I remember that little fella. He is right here beside me always.
He is big and tough now. He is my shadow.

I do feel a comaraderie to those on this blog. I would gladly shake hands with anyone here. If I can ease the pain of anyone leaving the fof cult or help remove the scales from the eyes of those still in- that is my purpose for being here.

79. fofblogmoderator - September 10, 2008

#78

“I do feel a camaraderie to those on this blog. I would gladly shake hands with anyone here. If I can ease the pain of anyone leaving the fof cult or help remove the scales from the eyes of those still in- that is my purpose for being here.”

I feel the same way.

80. lauralupa - September 10, 2008

thanks fofblogmoderator, this job must be quite a handful sometimes. The blog’s atmosphere has often changed dramatically in the past together with people’s comings and goings. Let’s see what happens this time.

Thanks Yesri for 78. I love that little fella.

Daily Cardiac, as veronicapoe suggested, do me and yourself a favour and just read the book. It did me a lot of good before I left. Of course, if you prefer to hold tight to your favorite illusions, never mind what I just said. After all, I am just an hopelessly optimistic person.

81. Ellen - September 10, 2008

#52 Daily Cardiac,

“Do they talk about modern day real “Gurus”, as in Conscious or Enlightened Beings?…Do you think they would be able to distinguish a real Enlightened Being from an impostor? ” And you assume that you can.

Well, of course, as Veronicapoe suggested, you could find out for yourself by reading the book, as that is one very good approach.

Or you could do some research yourself to find out what other current realized masters (besides RB) really are teaching.

Or you could avoid both and continue wiseacreing here for umpteen more million pages.

You know, you and I went through this discussion already a few pages back. I gave you four names of people teaching right now, who can be considered to be realized masters. You did not know them (and so immediately disregarded them) but for one, who you also immediately discounted because he does not teach his students about your subjective picture of the “adversarial lower self”. He does not teach gross duality like Robert does. Therefore he is what you consider to be a False Guru. Right?

So, your barometer of Guru measuremnt is more about the adversarial lower self than it is about the man or woman and their teaching. I got that. And a Guru who destroys the lower self is a real one, and a Guru who approaches the end of the ego’s dominion with much more subtlety is not?

Why not examine this lower self thingy that your ego has acquired? As I can perceive it, the lower self for you, as it has coalesced in the Fellowship, now comprises: life, former members, essence, the king of clubs, the queen of hearts, the expression of any negative emotion or perception, imagination, critical thinking, conscience, etc… Right? And the list keeps growing. Sounds pretty complicated, constricting and extremely relative to me. Do you really think that is what G and O really intended?

Have you ever considered examining the ego, pure and simple, as the only thing ever needing release? Considered going deeper into understanding how it is constructed, because after all, it is only a concept, that by right thinking, feeling and acting, can be released? If so, then pick up a copy of “I Am That”. It will affirm many things that you already understand yet challenge a few formatory misunderstandings that you have unknowingly acquired.

But hey, why bother, it is more fun to wiseacre here, isn’t it?

82. spoonful - September 10, 2008

The blog is like a flowing river – it meanders it’s way carrying along what happens to be in its path.

Yes, it’s a compilation of information, opinions, facts – some inspiring and a lot crap! But it’s a democratic forum, anyone can contribute in their own way and the moderator tries to interfere as little as possible.

This is the antithesis of the FOF, where the moderators are out in force to contain the message and is perhaps the reason why the likes of DC, the late Howard Carter etc, choose to visit here to say their bit. They need the blog too.

And who can say what is written here means to some of those reading it?

So when the discussion starts to turn to the blog’s imminent demise, it usually signifies it’s about to enter a new phase.

Viva la blog!

83. arthur - September 10, 2008

spoonful you are right. The blog is entering a new phase because it does have meaning for a lot of people.

“In order to learn you have to teach and in order to teach you have to learn”.

That’s the purpose of the blog.

Thanking all from page one.

84. American - September 10, 2008

Arthur and Spoon, you make some great points. Speaking of blogs, this is completely off-topic, but check this out:

“Don’t panic: Large Hadron Collider won’t spawn voracious black holes”

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-10036245-76.html

85. Mick Danger - September 10, 2008

Whew! What a relief.
I was afraid Steve had lost his dictatorial powers and good sense.
I too, am grateful and like it just the way it are.
I am suspicious of announced departures and rumors of demise.
The Blog cannot be killed or put back in the bottle.

86. arthur - September 10, 2008

Please, a slight deviation from seeking the truth: From Underground Weather.

” A realistic worse-case scenario for Texas there is a significant chance that Ike will be the worst hurricane to hit Texas in over 40 years”

Since I cant run nor hide kindly remember me and know that the god Neptune has displaced me to parts unknown.

Or, I’ll check back in hopefully before Elena’s birthday on the 15th. Provided there is electricity.

A pirate for life.

87. nigel harris price - September 10, 2008

A little something for the new phase:-

I wish I could teach you pencils;
Why a broken lead through broken times,
Indicates a feeble essence:
Something to do with diamond theory.

Pressure and fire are the test of reality
Proving that pressure and fire are the making of a human being.

(nhp) 2000

88. whalerider - September 10, 2008

People suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder will go to great lengths to be the center of negative attention.

Even when they receive positive attention, they will turn it into a negative experience for everyone around them. It mirrors the predominantly negative attention they got as children from peers and authority figures.

They inherently don’t trust positive feelings because the predominately negative feelings are just around the corner to override the positive ones making them become very cynical about life in general, like politics, for example.

They are also very clever and very perceptive; they know how to find the weaknesses of others and then use these weaknesses to manipulate them to feel their negative feelings for them so they don’t have to. As a result, they have great difficulty maintaining relationships and when individuals or the group shuns them as they inevitably do, it matches their deep core belief that they, like everyone else are flawed and cannot live up to their idealized role models.

That’s why it seemed to all of us that it was just a matter of time before he was banned, yet again. Couldn’t you feel him pulling on us to do that for him? What eventually happens is that he will attack the person he feels is in charge, use inflammatory language like “cunt” and get the boot. I would wager that’s what he got growing up, along with the belt, too.

People with this disorder are destined to recycle in this pattern of idealization and devaluation until they find a person with whom they can place their trust, a person whom accepts them as they are, in turn helping them accept themselves as imperfect beings as we all are.

The trouble is that Greg has idealized G & O, whom are dead and cannot be there for him in a way that his parents should have been. Greg’s perception of the world full of sleeping machines without possibilities of change seems crystallized. Robert as a role model has failed him as he has failed many of us here.

Yet, I strongly believe in social rehabilitation. Communities, like this blog, can be a powerful healing force in an individual’s life. We just need a break from him for a while to get re-grounded. That’s how it is done in a therapeutic environment otherwise you get burned out. Burn out is what leads individuals to feel like the blog should be closed down. Time for a break, that’s all.

I vote the ban be temporary for one month.

To his credit, this time around he made some effort to connect with a few others and only called me names, “blubber boy” and “not normal”, which I didn’t take personally, since I have experience dealing with this in the past with others suffering from this disorder. They can be pretty gnarly.

I realize he is difficult; yet life is a challenge and he has a way of testing us. It doesn’t seem fair to him that others can call people names and he can’t, despite the intention, and he has a valid point. I believe that making personal attacks on FOF members who post will only drive them away from the truth. That doesn’t prevent anyone from using graphic language, since the truth is often graphic and in some cases, quite startling.

There is a subtle yet profound difference between blatantly calling someone a “douche bag” or a “fucking lunatic” and phrasing it thus: “I feel like you are acting like a douche bag” or “when you say this or that you sound to me like a fucking lunatic.”

The difference in the former phrasing is that by owning your feelings, you get to process and discharge them without creating a negative mood; otherwise they just endlessly recycle looking for another target, which creates a depressed or angry mood that lasts longer and is unhealthy.

Can we accept and forgive ourselves as imperfect beings, too?

Eventually, we all need to learn, including people like Greg and Daily Cardiac, that the road to happiness is not paved with 4th way masochism, and at the end of the day, kings or knaves, happiness makes us all equals.

89. elena - September 10, 2008

Arthur, that’s the sweetest thing I’ve heard in years so I can’t have Neptune take you anywhere before or after my birthday. You could come and stay in my trailer for a few days and we’ll wave at Neptune as he goes by!

Steve, thank you for moderating. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to understand why others thought Greg was such a pain in the ass to have around. I personally find him a lot less dangerous than Daily Cardiac with his agenda. At least Greg is direct with his aggression and the more he ventilates it the less it would stink while Daily Cardiac’s is crystallized shit. He did seem to get a little stirred yesterday though and that was fun! Watch your step Daily Cardiac, or you might fall and break open, you will anyway in the long run but the longer you take the more it will hurt. And for many it is just too late in this life time so hurry up dear.

Greg, I doubt you’d care to write to me privately since what you need is the public and I really have very little to say to you but that door is open since you are of no less value to me than anyone else here and I hope you find a way to recover some trust and joy in the company of others. In our own sickness we alienate ourselves from the rest but that is just our untransformed pain. I thoroughly understand Steve for not being willing to put up with your intensity. You tire people out with nonsense but you’re just sick like I and many others who’ve gone through more than we can handle.

Yesri Baba that was beautiful, thank you. And am glad others here are not for closing the blog but letting it die naturally, as all things should when its time.

90. Daily Cardiac - September 10, 2008

Old Fish in the Sea – 48 – 227:

Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply; I do appreciate it. I understand how the issues you raised were and still are important to you and how they served as your proof that things were not right within the Fellowship. On one level you saw accurately.

But what you were seeing and documenting were aspects of the form of the school, not the school itself. The outward manifestations of the school, collectively the teacher and every student who has ever been a member, can be seen as an individual’s body. The collective consciousness the school produces now and has produced in the past can be seen as that individual’s soul.

The form of the school corresponds to the body of an individual; it is subject to injury and disease, healing and regeneration. It is a receptacle for toxic waste matter as well as for the seeds of new life. It errs, it betrays, it is capable of great industry and great beauty.

The innermost and highest purpose of the school is to create light, or consciousness, in its members. You brought consciousness to the school and produced more of it in your time in the school. And when you departed the light you helped create remained as part of the school’s spiritual matter, as well as being retained by you, as part of your spiritual matter. Light can do that.

Your physical/emotional/mental activities remained as part of the school’s form, which, much like a human body begins both to grow, and to decay, as soon as it comes into existence.

The form of the school is meant to be both a denying force and a third force for consciousness. The denying force aspect is meant to be overcome, not indentified with. If we don’t identify with the form we have a chance to go beyond it, and then the real, inner, school emerges before us. When we don’t identify with the form of the school we are by “default” separate from it. We see the form for what it is, and we see the esoteric content for what it is – something that overshadows the form as much as a human soul overshadows a carcass.

It is essential to each individual’s spiritual well being that they distinguish the lower from the higher in themselves, what is interested in awakening from what seeks to destroy awakening. We cannot distinguish the form of the school from the school’s substance (consciousness) until we can distinguish the lower from the higher in ourselves.

And we cannot do that until we verify Influence C. Not just verify their existence, but verify the extent of their domain. Then it becomes clear that everything that happens is willed into being by them and governed over by them.

When one knows this, sees this, when a group of individuals know this, it does produce what would appear to an outsider as “the most uncurious bunch he had ever met.” I am not, nor are my friends, trying to figure out the mysteries of the universe. We know what we need to know. We know how to be present and we value presence above all else.

It would be a wonderful world if everyone who went looking for, and who met, a conscious school would find the form agreeable, would find the teacher agreeable, as well as all the students. But it is not to be; it apparently was not intended to be.

It would also be wonderful if there were no suffering on the earth; no injustices. But that also is not meant to be. That is outside of our will and our control, just as the form of the school is outside of our will and control. And as I can see, that is a good thing.

91. whalerider - September 10, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
Again you address form and not content. I am disappointed in you.

What makes you think the FOF is not a cult?

92. Mick Danger - September 10, 2008

Can’t we just call a spade a shovel?
And a douche bag like Daily Cardiac a fucking lunatic?
No sensitivity for morons!

93. Rear View Mirror - September 10, 2008

DC: “The innermost and highest purpose of the school is to create light, or consciousness, in its members.”

Actually, it’s a very dark purpose, and that purpose is to serve as an avenue for Robert Burton’s abuse of power, his manipulation of his students to satisfy his own greed and lust, and to function as a business designed to funnel money toward one man’s selfish goals and whims.

You are relentless in your PR effort. By the way, who are you writing for. Did you think current members would tune in and say, “Oh, gosh, I was almost going to believe this stuff on the blog, but fortunately DC has saved me from the torment of doubting my teacher.”

Or are you writing for Opus 111 — thinking that eventually he’ll just stop asking you questions about conscience? Or Bruce, or Ames, or me, or Veremente. What’s the point? To convince yourself that you haven’t wasted your life in a corrupt organization?

Spewing out work words is going to change that reality?

94. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

92. Mick Danger

“Can’t we just call a spade a shovel?”

I’m with you. If I want to tell people, instead, “how it makes me feel” I’ll pay some hack psychologist for the right to allow him to vicariously live through my life while he takes my money. I have little concern for sugar coating my criticisms for people who are so obviously fucked up and wish to project their stuff on someone else to alleviate their sick burdens. If I’m speaking to someone who obviously has even a rudimentary conscience I’ll be sensitive to how I get my message across, but if I’m speaking to a jerk who only has the capacity to pathologically “love” themselves to the exclusion of all others, or someone who is so numb and isolated to obvious facts that they continually regurgitate meaningless esoteric bull shit then I’m going to confront them directly, not obliquely or subtly.
But of course feel free to tell them “how it makes you feel”.

95. You-me-us-they - September 10, 2008

“Si no me quieres, me muero.”
If you don’t love me, I die

Placido Domingo sings Ernesto Lecuona

96. Opus 111 - September 10, 2008

Whalerider #88

The trouble is that Greg has idealized G & O, whom are dead and cannot be there for him in a way that his parents should have been.

If you know his parents, that comment should not be there. If you do not know them, why speculate?

BTW, I love what you have contributed to the blog and its purpose as I see it.

97. whalerider - September 10, 2008

Mick Danger and brucelevy:
You have every right to call a spade a shovel, especially when you are telling the truth. It feels empowering to stand behind the truth, no matter how graphic, doesn’t it?

I am with you and have been all along on directly confronting anyone on their crap especially when they on the one hand spew out sanctimonious bullshit about non-expression of negative emotions and then on the other go on the attack with negative puerile lies and immature name-calling in an effort only to devalue and discredit others or continue to elevate themselves by avoiding entering into dialog with anyone. It stinks to high heaven! I agree, if you don’t confront that crap, it gets deeper. You both don’t strike me as sanctimonious bullshitters, however. Hey, if the shoe doesn’t fit, you, don’t have to wear it. By all means, keep doing what you are doing.

Communities need people like you with low bullshit thresholds to step outside decorum and tell it like it is without censorship. That’s healthy. As long as that is working for you in your life, feel free to not talk about how you feel.

On the other hand, if you do offend anyone by calling them a name, they need feel empowered to stand up for themselves and call you on it. I am confident that eventually that a healthy and productive dialog will ensue if you both stick to your guns. I never had the sense that you guys backed away from dialoging the way Greg did. That’s what makes your comments more tolerable than his.

********
Opus 111

Thank you for the feedback. I hope that one day I might incite Greg to enter into a meaningful dialog with me about his past and upbringing. It was my crap about my parents that lead me to join a cult, and I speculate that many of us share some common ground regarding our past parenting or lack thereof. If I am wrong about his parents, I will happily apologize to him personally.

98. Old Fish in the Sea - September 10, 2008

90- Daily Cardiac

The estoeric parts of a school are reflected in the form of the school and the actions of a school. I think we agree that there is corruption in the form. I would agree with you that some corruption in the form is part of life on earth – essentially unavoidable.

Part of personal development is to be able to not identify with the so called school and it’s form since identification blocks being able to see objectively. If you identify with the school you are only able to contribute in a formatory way because you cannot see what the school really needs. If the school is really unhealthy at the core, then you will not see that until you are able to separate yourself psycholgically from all of the fears of being independent.

At some point, if the corruption in the form is too great, then it is worth taking a look to see if the form is not a reflection of what you call the real school. If you find that there is something “rotten at the core” then the question arises, can this be fixed? If it can be fixed then you have the opportunity and in my mind obligation to do your best to fix it.

I felt that the corruption at the core could not be fixed or if it could, leaving was the best that I could do to help. I tried to help before I left and I could not find any realistic way of doing that. The form did not bend that way. This was part of the corruption.

I felt also that the corruption was blocking my “light” and the development of my own independent conscience and growth into the type of man that I could respect. It was time to take a chance and see if my work was dependent on being on the inside of the imaginary line we call “in the school”. The final answer to that question is dependent on time.

There is a growing body of evidence that the core of the school is and may have always contained a fatal flaw that essentially prevents it from ever being what it claims to be. I believe that Robert’s fatal flaw (essentially his identification with sex) has led him to become paranoid which undermines the growth, and possibilities for the Fellowship and undermines a level of freedom required for personal development, particularly for older students.

I am 55. I do not have time to continue to “trust” against what my senses, my logic, and my being sees as “misguided hope” that supports corruption at the core, blocking the opportunity for the sincere ones to fully develop and in fact supporting a development of a personality which hinders a simple, honest and unpretentious existence – an existence that I think must be the basis for presence.

In the end, we all most go in the direction that our conscience guides us. Sometimes this means that we go our separate ways.

I did receive some “light” from the Fellowship. Thanks for being respectful to me and best wishes to you in your personal growth.

99. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

97. whalerider

Thanks. I see that you see.

100. brucelevy - September 10, 2008

Also, I wish to apologize to P***r I***e for putting the onus of DC on him. I am now under the impression that it is not he, and I’ll keep my “suppositions” of who’s who to myself in the future.

101. veramente - September 10, 2008

DC 90
When I read your posts DC, I get the sense that you are talking about cloud formations, esoteric bubbles.
I do not get any essential information from what you say except that you appear to be full of thoughts and fantastic explanations…
your magical thinking!

102. Ames Gilbert - September 10, 2008

Old Fish in the Sea (#49-98 or thereabouts),
In your reply to Daily Cardiac, you used the phrase, “rotten at the core”. I believe that if an organization has corruption anywhere in it, there is always another part that recognizes this. In an individual, this might be one of the functions of conscience; in an organization, the part would often be one of the cells of the body, a member. The Fellowship of Friends, of course, has a board, one of whose duties is to oversee and guard against corruption in various forms. Not only against fiduciary corruption, but in the case of the FoF board, various forms of abuse by the founder. When one board member, Samuel S., did his duty and spoke out, the board not only did not look into his claims, it abrogated its responsibilities and gave oversight to the very person who should have been subject to inquiry, Robert Burton. He immediately ordered that Samuel should be fired—for faithfully carrying out his responsibilities.
If Burton had had nothing to fear, he would not have acted as he did, which was basically to sweep the matter under the rug, bring darkness where light was needed, and even initiate a campaign of the most disgusting slander against Samuel. This pattern is seen over and over again with individuals in the FoF who speak out or even just ask questions, however mild.

If peripheral corruption is found or suspected in an organization, the healthy response is always an inquiry followed by action to root out the festering. Most organizations have procedures for doing this, because the organization will be better for it. If the corruption is at the center, there will be resistance to inquiry. For 37 years, the Fellowship has not tolerated dissent or questioning, so it follows that the source of corruption is at the center—Robert Burton. If he was interested in light (remember, Daily Cardiac and others, ‘enlightenment’ means bringing in truth and light!), he would encourage questioning; but he does the opposite, always acting behind closed doors, trying to control the flow of information or reshape it to suit his ends. It is beyond irony that his ‘solution’ is to force the very cells of the body that can recognize corruption and defend against disease to leave the body! Instead of opening the windows and letting fresh air in, he prefers secrets and fetid smells. This is another of his fruits, the measure of his being.

103. nigel harris price - September 10, 2008

To DC, with apologies to Rodney Collin…..

Some people are so busy being on the esoteric bus to nowhere, that they fail to tell the driver to stop at their stop outside their house, where they can come inside and greet the Guest, who has arrived By Way of Blessing in their Lifetime. Honestly, can you really believe that someone of the unfeeling nature of GH, could have achieved consciousness, and have it indicated by Darth-Vader-like REB, who has turned even the slightest glimpse he may have had of Eternal Light, to the Dark Side of the Force?…..Nigel.

104. veronicapoe - September 10, 2008

It is essential to each individual’s spiritual well being that they distinguish the lower from the higher in themselves, what is interested in awakening from what seeks to destroy awakening. We cannot distinguish the form of the school from the school’s substance (consciousness) until we can distinguish the lower from the higher in ourselves.

There is a reason this statement exemplifies a “self-sealing doctrine.” A good discussion of “self-sealing doctrines” appears here:

http://www.itaa-net.org/tajnet/articles/riebel-self-sealing.html

The above article contains the following quote:

“If an acute appendicitis is not cured by the power of the patient’s prayer, this merely proves that his faith was not strong enough and his demise therefore vindicates rather than invalidates the teaching [italics added] of Spiritual Healing. Open-ended, self-sealing systems win either way.”

(citing Watzlawick, P. (1977). The utopia syndrome. In P. Watzlawick & J. H. Weakland (Eds.), The interactional view (pp. 299-308). New York: Norton.)

when a group of individuals know [that influence C control everything], it does produce what would appear to an outsider as “the most uncurious bunch he had ever met.”

I.e., people who have been functionally lobotomized by self-sealing doctrines. Anybody here visited the Creation Museum in Kentucky?

I’ll bet Daily Cardiac has never heard of self-sealing doctrines or evaluated whether his line of argumentation conforms to the description of such doctrines.

105. veronicapoe - September 10, 2008

“[The self-sealing doctrine] is a “powerful defensive strategy that is often applied to protect a theory against disconfirmation. . .” It consists of arming one’s belief system with one or more tenets that explain away inconvenient evidence. For example, the disgraced American televangelist Jim Bakker, after being arrested for embezzling his followers’ donations, claimed that he had been sincere in his efforts to create a devout community of the faithful, but a diabolical enemy had destroyed it: “Something so beautiful was being built, the devil got mad.” In this light, the very holiness of Bakker’s intentions provoked his downfall. Another example is self-proclaimed messiah David Koresh, who, when confronted with his misdeeds, explained that even though he was the perfect savior, he had to partake of sinful human nature in order to be on earth at all.”

106. veronicapoe - September 10, 2008

The foregoing quote derives from the Riebel article (link posted in 104, above).

107. veronicapoe - September 10, 2008
108. lauralupa - September 10, 2008

thanks veronicapoe, great article. I really like the image of “religious Moebius strips”.

As some of the posters on this blog have accurately demonstrated over and over, “You can’t win in such a world”.

The self-sealing strategy reminds me of many things, among them some personal painful memories of a time when I was in a relationship with a person who became very abusive when drunk. He would get into rants accusing me of any number of ugly things, and when I got upset he took that as a proof of his righteousness and my culpability, since
“if it wasn’t true it would not hurt you”

Such perfectly perverse logic, I actually believed it for quite sometimes.

109. veronicapoe - September 11, 2008

“If you are irritated with someone’s behavior, that is a sign that you have the fault which irritates you.” Remember that one, Lauralupa?

110. elena - September 11, 2008

The “form” of the Fellowship is what most shows its lack of consciousness. Fellowship inner circle and Robert thought that being conscious or pretending to be was the same as pretending to be high executives professionally doing their job without feelings. The less feeling they showed the more they thought they were proving they were not identified. I bet now they go around smiling amply at most people pretending to be kind and “externally considerate” but besides having had to reduce hundreds of teaching payments in the hope of retaining enough people to continue to look like it is O.K. nothing has changed in the way things actually function. Kindness in a personal sphere is a reflection of an individual’s level of consideration while the lack of openness in a community and the degree to which it stratifies the relationships between the members, shows the level of submission and domination to which the members are subject to.

The Fellowship Cult is convinced and convincing its members that they are working on awakening because it’s FORM is so rigid but it is precisely the rigidity of its form what shows the level of unconsciousness of its leader and inner circle. Without the rigid form they would not be able to control the freedom of expression of the members and with the freedom of expression they would not be able to submit each individual to a very specific behavior.

It is not the dogma as much as the FORM what is so dangerous for the members in the Fellowship Cult. The theory is not nearly as pervasive as the precise controls on people’s behavior. Learning is an organic process and it is the way people behave what will submit their soul not how people think. The thinking process will adapt to the organic need and look to justify it, that is why the submission is possible and why the Stocholm syndrome can develop very quickly. This is very interesting. The emotional and intellectual center will activate themselves by the will of the individual but when the individual gives himself up to the will of the Teacher, it is the moving instinctive centers what will accomplish his true submission. What is dangerous about the Fellowship is not the way we think but the way we live and the way we live and the way we lived was dictated by our instinctive-moving submission. Emotionally people thought they still had a life (with their group of friends) intellectually, they, we thought we could still think but in reality the more time we spent in there the more submitted were the emotional and intellectual centers too with a great victory when the sequence was implanted. To those ex-members that did not live through this period, you should have seen how pathetically people met at dinners and couldn’t even talk because they had to do the sequence. (Must work on this more deeply because it will give us very precise clues on how exactly the cult gets people to submit).

What members are most addicted to in the Fellowship is the appearance of an orderly world and the more dependent and incapable of responding to normal situations, the more addicted they are to the imaginary stability of the Fellowship.

What Daily Cardiac calls THE SCHOOL is the degree to which members are willing to behave submissively to Robert’s conditions:
Dress code,
Language code
Behaviour code
Moving centered code
Thought code (the sequence)
Money code (with which he gets a grip on people’s conviction that the more money they give, the more efforts they are making and therefore the more they are awakening)
Silence code (in his presence, reinstating their submission to his authority in meetings, dinners, and all events)

The more they submit to the code, the more in THE SCHOOL they are supposed to be but it is just dirty, slick brainwashing.

Every aspect of the Fellowship of Friends is meant to submit your will to Robert’s will and this will not help you awaken, it will make you more and more dependent and helpless as time goes by.

Only the highest members of the inner circle have a slight freedom to do as they choose and then they get to use and manipulate other students in a similar way that Robert manipulates his inner circle. They are also kept in those positions as long as they show unconditional submission to Robert.

Talking with many ex-members recently, they expressed how Robert had kept them from developing their art if they had any. He has asked any student who showed any talent in no matter what area to not practice that particular aspect of him self and in many cases with the lowliest ridicule of their aptitudes. With the artists, he consistently controlled them by telling them what specific plays they could act in or what particular music they could play.

This FORM is what shows the degree of evil that Robert has been capable of since the very beginning of the Fellowship and as the members adapted to being belittled they were unable to have any more consideration with the new members than Robert had had with them. Small circles of friends is not the issue, the problem was in the institutionalized lack of consideration for each member that the Fellowship has pathologically developed to the point that lining up helpless victims is seen as perfectly normal.

In this self-sealing doctrine, if people get fucked it’s because they were fucked up already. The Fellowship of Friends is organized crime at its most refined and each member that consents to its activities is directly or indirectly connected to its crimes.

I have said most of these things before, I will continue to say them for as long as Daily Cardiac continues to inspire me. I thank you for not allowing me to forget.

111. nigel harris price - September 11, 2008

This thing about the ‘form’ of the school not being the school ‘itself’…
If we follow the idea that eventually, essence should be able to grow and stand on its own at a certain point, then we would see that the ‘form’ of the school should by now (38 years?) coincide with ‘its inner vision’. Can we all discuss on how this may, or may not, be true, in what we all see?…..Nigel.

112. Mick Danger - September 11, 2008

Now that Brother Bruce & I have ascended to the lofty plane of the “more tolerable”, we can look down upon the “less tolerable” and up the robes of the “even more tolerable”.

113. will coyote - September 11, 2008

27and 28 My english is poor, but you miss the point. In Buddhism a teacher use “useful mean” to teach. That cat’s example was one , old, extreme, for that specific people and for that specific situation. I didn’ know if that master was real or fake( instead you think that for sure because of the poor cat). The example was to put focus to what happened next. If it worked was a”useful mean”. Me too likes very much cats and I never choose a master who is employing to kill cats as a tool.

114. Old Fish in the Sea - September 11, 2008

Yesterday, another former student and I were trying to remember when the concept of the school being separate from the form was first introduced as a means of justifying disturbing aspects of the form, primarily Robert’s sexual practices with his students and the wastes of resources, unending requests for money, and the sometimes dishonest or hurtful dealings between students.

We were not able to determine when this was introduced or who introduced it but we determined that it was an old idea – one that goes back over 20 years to explain away anything that made us uncomfortable about the inadequacies.

Robert often claimed that the form would grow to “a new civilization” holding and caring for all that was beautiful on earth, that Miles would become president of the US, that we would all experience the etnernal city of paradise, etc. There were so many statements like this, about how our “form” would reflect our inner being, showing our true nature to the rest. Maybe some of Robert’s grandiose predictions will become true some day but I think that is laughable. As I see it, the best days for the FOF form, as meager as they were, are over.

I think we all have to ask ourselves, did we miss something? Did we not verify C-Influence? Did we focus on the form and not the light?

It is impossible to know what others experience internally. Sometimes I would think that I verified a special energy – a state where I was extremely perceptive, where every impression seemed very clear and every impression was food being absorbed and transformed to keep the state alive, where my mind was quiet and open, and my observer somewhat separate from my body, and where I felt a warmth and connectedness to all of the others that were “tuned in”. I guess we all experienced this although we might describe it completely differently.

It was tempting to assume that this state came from C-Influence or from Robert but I remember experiencing this state long before I joined the Fellowhship and I still experience it after leaving. If it is C-Influence then it exists outside of the boudaries of the Fellowship and can be experienced almost anywhere. There are many ways to get there and from what I can tell, the Fellowship methods are not superior to others.

I often asked students that spoke about C-Influence how they experienced it. I got many answers, but none really impressed me. One student claimed that angels visited him and spoke directly to him about how the Fellowship was the only real school. He left the Fellowship a year later. Most others said that it was a “personal verification” and difficult to speak about. Some talked about synchronicity (e.g. an interesting license plate or a well placed 44). Robert suggested that I would find C-Influence inside myself.

Most students were a little ashamed to admit that they had not verified C-Influence. Some of the more honest ones (I think) did admit it. There is no question that some were convinced that C-Influence worked directly with them. Did they convince themselves as a way of dealing with the dissonance or as a way of avoiding the emptiness?

I have come to the conclusion (at least for now) that there is no special influence that is bound by the line that separates those of us that are in from those of us that are out. I believe that special states are possible in or out. I believe that the financial hardships placed on students in order to support Robert’s lifestyle sometimes has the effect of allowing little time and energy for the simple state of being, which leads to a frenetic existence intersperesed with FOF meetings. In short, I believe that the idea that good students can see the difference between the real school and the form is an attitude designed to keep people from seeing the true nature of the Fellowship – designed to keep them inside and paying to support the leadership. Designed to allow them to buffer seeing simple reality.

I am concerned that many students give all of their time and resources to the FOF, and that this does not come back to them, leaving them in a very awkward position, with no option for any kind of retirement as they grow older. I am concerned that the Fellowship does not put asside a percentage of the donations to care for those students when they are older that have given so much. There are many students now that are 10 years away from being too old to continue working at a frenetic pace. These are the students that support those that are “on salary”. I am concerned that the use of this idea – that the real school is separate from the form, and that C-Influence, whatever it is, is only available when you make payments to support Robert is just another fraudulant idea. Their seem to be plenty of these here on earth.

115. whalerider - September 11, 2008

Mick Danger:
C’mon bro, work with me. I wrote that your name calling was more tolerable than Reality Check’s because you don’t come off as a hypocrite. You don’t seem to have the need to step on anyone else’s face you can find to get a better view like Greg does. It was a compliment.

I don’t look good in robes, nor sit in judgement of others any more than you do. Hell, when I was fresh into my divorce process a year ago and blogged about it my posts were pretty intolerable to many and was told so in no uncertain terms. I took the hit and had to give myself a one week break from blogging to give this vital part of my support network a rest. I hope Greg can do the same.

Let’s work together to drain bobby’s victim pool.

Daily Cardiac:

What makes you think the FOF is not a cult?

Sometimes it’s what you don’t say that speaks volumes.

116. veronicapoe - September 11, 2008

Old Fish/113
Great post.

117. veronicapoe - September 11, 2008

Daily Cardiac:

Do you acknowledge that the reasoning process you demonstrated above relies upon a self-sealing doctrine? Can you differentiate the reasoning process you demonstrated in your discussion above from every other self-sealing doctrine?

Sometimes it’s what you don’t say that speaks volumes.

118. Mick Danger - September 11, 2008

114 Peace Bro – I was making fun of myself and that other fool.

119. Daily Cardiac - September 11, 2008

Veronicapoe:

Regarding the “Self-sealing doctrine” – There is most certainly that aspect of human behavior; in street parlance it’s called “covering one’s _ss”.

What you may not be accounting for when applying that term is that it is far from foolproof when applying it; and misapplying it can have as grave a consequence as not applying it at all when necessary.

One example is the following: The most common “self-sealing doctrine” used by people who kill others with guns is “I just wanted to scare him but the gun went off for no reason.” This obviously can be used as a “great escape” tactic.

But one out of X amount of times its said it would actually happen just this way; in other words, the “killing” would be an unfortunate accident. And the self-serving doctrine cannot distinguish these exceptions. This is only one basic example of the limitations of a doctrine that cannot know “motivation” but can only measure results.

However, Jim Baker certainly removed a lot of doubt from his motivations. If Robert was buying yachts or lear jets, things strictly for his personal use there would be more cause for skeptism. Osho’s fleet of RRs make Robert look like spendstrift. The vast majority of what Robert spends on is beautifying Apollo, things for public use for all members.

The other person mentioned, David Koresh, was having sex with 9 year olds on a regular basis; there is no equivalent for that on Robert’s part, if there was he’d be in prison.

I would say the “self-sealing doctrine” casts a broad net, because it cannot see “motivation” and many other nuances that would produce results indistinguishable from the obvious intents.

It’s right much of the time, but catches more frauds than conscious beings. The conundrum is that life cannot see conscious beings, cannot see when a spiritual law is being obeyed at the expense of a moral law.

120. veronicapoe - September 11, 2008

Daily Cardiac/118

You have confused “self-serving statements” with “self-sealing doctrines.” These are completely different concepts. I challenge you to actually read the following article:

http://www.itaa-net.org/tajnet/articles/riebel-self-sealing.html

121. veronicapoe - September 11, 2008

Daily Cardiac/118

The conundrum is that life cannot see conscious beings, cannot see when a spiritual law is being obeyed at the expense of a moral law.

Your comment makes me think of Heinrich Himmler. Consider the following:

————–[begin quoted material]———————-

It was Himmler’s master stroke that he succeeded in indoctrinating the SS with an apocalyptic “idealism” beyond all guilt and responsibility, which rationalized mass murder as a form of martyrdom and harshness towards oneself. Nowhere was this more apparent than in Himmler’s notorious speech on 4 October 1943 to the SS Group Leaders in Poznan:

One principle must be absolute for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood and to no one else. What happens to the Russians, what happens to the Czechs, is a matter of utter indifference to me. Such good blood of our own kind as there may be among the nations we shall acquire for ourselves, if necessary by taking away the children and bringing them up among us. Whether the other peoples live in comfort or perish of hunger interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our Kultur. Whether or not 10,000 Russian women collapse from exhaustion while digging a tank ditch interests me only in so far as the tank ditch is completed for Germany. We shall never be rough or heartless where it is not necessary; that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude to animals, will also adopt a decent attitude to these human animals, but it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and to bring them ideals. I shall speak to you here with all frankness of a very grave matter. Among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people.. . . Most of you know what it means to see a hundred corpses lying together, five hundred, or a thousand. To have stuck it out and at the same time–apart from exceptions caused by human weakness–to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard. This is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and shall never be written.

—————[end quoted material]———————–

I.e., doing noble (as he defined them) things for Germany was the higher good, and moral laws had to be violated in order to, as you put it, obey a “spiritual law.” How is your argument any different, reduced to its essentials, than this?

122. Old Fish in the Sea - September 11, 2008

DC:

You said,

“We cannot distinguish the form of the school from the school’s substance (consciousness) until we can distinguish the lower from the higher in ourselves.

And we cannot do that until we verify Influence C. Not just verify their existence, but verify the extent of their domain. Then it becomes clear that everything that happens is willed into being by them and governed over by them. ”

****

I would be interested in your response to 113 which was in part, a response to your words above. I, like whalerider, would also be interested to know what leads you to to believe that the FOF is not just another cult but MOST IMPORTANTLY I am interested to hear more about your verifications of c-influence and the extent of their domain. I know c-influence is by nature difficult to discuss but in the interest of a healthy dialog where we both might get to learn something, I would appreciate it if you could be as specific as possible.

But let’s look a little closer at the idea that you cannot compare Robert with David Koresh or Osho or James Baker. Just because Robert is “not as bad” does not make him good or make it worth giving up your will to him. It is difficult at best to consider it wise for a leader to enter into sexual encounters with his students. This is more true when the students are young and somewhat naive which from my observations is definitely true of most of Robert’s subjects and when the number of students may be in the hundreds. As far as I know he stays away from the 9 year olds. I’ll give him credit for that. I am not sure that this makes your case.

WIth regard to Osho, Robert did once own a RR along with a number of other expensive cars. Robert had his own fund which was funded by his dinners etc. I don’t think anyone knows exactly how that money was spent and I would guess that you don’t know. I’d like to think it was mostly spent on the gardens. To my knowledge (and my knowledge is pretty good in this area) these expenditures were independent from the FOF books and therefore not under review or scrutiny of the board and I would like to see what the response would be if you asked to see them.

But if you want to compare Robert to any of these other fraudulent guru’s, I suggest you compare wardrobes. I might hazzard a guess that no other guru in the history of time has spent more money on clothes and jewels (unless they were also a pharoh).

Does any of this prove that Robert is not what he claims to be? Probably not, but when you put it all together, consider the effects of some of the imbalances, then in my mind there must be a pretty good case that the positive effects of the “Real School” outweigh the practical observations about some of the disturbing aspects of the form. Could you address this balance in a specific way. Friction is great, and transformation of friction is neccessary, but as Robert said, there is enough without us creating it.

Robert once said (over and over) that we (were so sure of the school that we) would give a million dollars to be in the school. Many of us did when you consider investment and interest over time. So what is it exactly that we are getting or have received in exchange, or if it is more about giving, to whom did we give and how were our gifts used and invested? Were they invested wisely enough to take care of those that are going to need it?

123. Daily Cardiac - September 11, 2008

Veronicapoe:

Regarding post 118, I forgot to mention: the bottom line is if someone is against Robert Burton they will not buy into my logic; they will naturally see Robert’s actions from the side of impropriety. Being a supporter I naturally see it from the side of him doing what is necessary to further people’s spiritual development.

That doesn’t mean one of us can’t see it objectively, or that both of us are seeing a segment of the whole truth. I wanted to make it clear I’m stating my viewpoint. I don’t expect you to consider any part of it valid. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I’m just going on record with my observations.

124. Old Fish in the Sea - September 11, 2008

DC – 122

Yes, I think we can both acknowledge that we my never convince each other regarding Robert, but the stakes are high, so lets see if we cannot learn a little from each others experience.

Since, I believe you think that Robert is guided by C-Influence, I would like to hear what you know about this influence and how you came to know it, and why you think it is useful to think the way you do about it. You might also want to address WhaleRider’s question about why you think the FOF is not a cult.

125. Paul de Silva - September 11, 2008

You’re all nuts.

126. fofblogmoderator - September 11, 2008

110 is newly moderated

127. Ames Gilbert - September 11, 2008

Daily Cardiac (#49-122 or thereabouts),
The bottom line is that after 37 years and ‘donating’ somewhere in the region of 100 million dollars, no one has yet ‘woken up’. You may give Girard H. as the sole example, but few would want to be like him or live like him, he who aspires to be at the level of a dog. You and the other followers may claim to have had a number of ‘higher states’, a relationship with C-Influence, and so on, maybe you have—but you have not woken up. So, Burton has failed miserably at what you and thousands of others hired him, at vast expense, to do.

You and Burton both claim that he actually sacrifices himself for his followers, nobly spends their donations like water to relieve them of the burden of spending it themselves, and piles up material possessions and material and sexual experiences on their behalf. And, to fool uninitiated observers and develop his character, he intentionally looks and acts like a greedy, perverted scam artist shearing the sheep. So, how can we tell that it is not true?

By the results.

128. fofblogmoderator - September 11, 2008

125 is newly moderated.

129. elena - September 11, 2008

Daily Cardiac: “Regarding post 118, I forgot to mention: the bottom line is if someone is against Robert Burton they will not buy into my logic.”

No one is against Robert Burton, what we are against is evil. Evil or the power of a man to manipulate hundreds of people at his will. Evil or the fraudulent use of a Conscious School on Earth for an infra-human Cult. You try to reduce the problem to Robert but the problem is beyond Robert into a form of life, of infra-human life, of EVIL.

“they will naturally see Robert’s actions from the side of impropriety.”

Not impropriety, EVIL. Stop buffering the word there is a whole world between impropriety and EVIL and your agenda here is to make the fellowship look as if it had just done a few improper things and cover the fact that it has realized and practiced an EVIL form of life in which hundreds of human beings are subdued to infra-human conditions in which they get raped, they give all their funds to the the Fellowship and all their life energy and effort because they are masterfully manipulated to do so by the whole bunch of inner circle people like you. You are as responsible as Robert Burton for all the abuses of the Fellowship.

“Being a supporter I naturally see it from the side of him doing what is necessary to further people’s spiritual development.”

If these are the things you support you are as Evil as Robert and should be held as responsible as Robert in a Court of Law.

“That doesn’t mean one of us can’t see it objectively,”

Of course it means you are not seeing it objectively. This is the same sick logic that you apply to all your posts, one in which there is no truth, no beautty, no love, no goodness, no soul. The same logic that stands by the idea that there is no objective good or evil but this is true only of people who are not willing to stand up to evil. This is the bottom-line here. The Fellowship harms people as individuals and as a group. Harming people through manipulation is evil. Criminal. And as long as people are not clear that this is what happens in the Fellowship and are willing to deal with it, it will continue to harm and manipulate others.

You are trying to even things out with logic just as Girard does to the people inside, reason it out so that they cannot grasp the dimension of harm that took place but the human harm inside the Fellowship is very simple and obvious, objective. Only the misconstrued, brainwashed minds of Fellowship members and ex-members can reason it out and reduce it to logic to make themselves feel that it was not nearly as inhuman as it really is but that will only prove that they will allow for similar forms of evil to be present in their lives, justifying their own inhuman weaknesses to others by the fact that they can reason them out.

“or that both of us are seeing a segment of the whole truth.”

No, you want us to look at the one and only segment you can rationalize to keep playing with our minds like Girard in the Fellowship but we can see the big picture that you are so afraid to look at because you’ve been denying your own self for so long that you can’t bear to look at it. Of course you cannot see that. Is it not interesting? That a sociopath has lost contact both with his most inner self and the outer circle of humanity, they only see their immediate reality adjusting their formatory apparatus to anything that can justify it. It is the same “self sealing doctrine” played out within the individual himself.

“I wanted to make it clear I’m stating my viewpoint. I don’t expect you to consider any part of it valid. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I’m just going on record with my observations.”

You’re a liar. You are trying to convince people that the Fellowship is not as seriously corrrupt as it is. You’re trying to justify your point of view by diminishing the Fellowship’s crimes into accidental improprieties to not be taken seriously.

Fraud is a crime and the Fellowship of Friends is a fraud. Rape is a crime and every member of the Fellowship participates directly or indirectly in submitting heterosexual men into having sex with Robert Burton. You’re all criminals whether you’re inside because it is convenient for your pocket and your situation or because you don’t care to look at what Robert does or because you are actively participating in the corruption.

YOU ARE ALL CRIMINALS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OTHER PEOPLE FOR YOUR OWN BENEFIT.

130. veronicapoe - September 11, 2008

Regarding post 118, I forgot to mention: the bottom line is if someone is against Robert Burton they will not buy into my logic; they will naturally see Robert’s actions from the side of impropriety. Being a supporter I naturally see it from the side of him doing what is necessary to further people’s spiritual development.

That doesn’t mean one of us can’t see it objectively, or that both of us are seeing a segment of the whole truth. I wanted to make it clear I’m stating my viewpoint. I don’t expect you to consider any part of it valid. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I’m just going on record with my observations.

But what purpose is to be served by going on record with your observations if you’re not really talking to people? I take your meaning to be, I’m not really going to address the questions I am asked because I’m not trying to convince anyone, I’m just saying what I observe. If you were keeping a diary, that would be one thing. But you are venturing into the lion’s den, ostensibly to have dialogue with people you disagree with. You don’t want or hope to convince anyone? Personally, I think you are deceiving yourself.

If I can persuade you to examine “your logic” you may discover (if not now then in retrospect) that it really constrains your ability to think and perceive. That’s what self-sealing doctrines do. That’s what they’re FOR.

131. veronicapoe - September 11, 2008

When playing “pin the tail on the donkey” or attending a piñata party the child gets blindfolded and spun around ’til dizzy before he is released to pin the tail on the donkey or break the piñata. Every misswing or misstep is met by calls of delight or derision from the other children.

Every time you write, Daily Cardiac, I picture you as that child who has been blindfolded and spun around. You take a swing at the Guru Papers, characterizing a book you have not read. That’s a blindfold you’re wearing, buddy. You have the power to take it off. I steer you to an information source about self-sealing doctrines, but you decline to read it and respond by talking about self-serving statements. That’s a blindfold you are choosing to wear. You evade Whalerider’s and my direct questions and claim that your activity here is not intended to convince anyone. Why be here, then? The point you are missing, and I say this sincerely, is that the majority of people involved in this discussion derive no joy from hurling invective at you. Really, they just want to help you take off the blindfold. Here, reach up and push it off your eyes by reading this, looking at that, acknowledging this. Take off the good student mask and let us have a look at your humanity.

You don’t have to tell us who you are. Just show us a little bit of good faith, that’s all.

132. Rear View Mirror - September 11, 2008

125. Paul: “You’re all nuts.”

yeah. hmm.

What was REALLY nuts was sitting at a meeting or a dinner nodding to the weird dogma, within minutes of a classic Burton rendezvous with one of his guys — all of us either completely unaware of it, or completely aware and nodding just the same. Now THAT’s insanity.

Well, if we are nuts, hopefully there’s some healing go on here. Would be interested in hearing more from you.

133. brucelevy - September 11, 2008

125. Paul de Silva – September 11, 2008

You’re all nuts.

So what’s your point?

134. Rear View Mirror - September 11, 2008

Actually, I thought the timing of his comment was rather bizarre. I’m personally enjoying many of the posts on this page. They’re very informative, enlightening, and empowering — nothing that I’d label as “nuts.” Far from it. I’d agree that some of this blog is insane, but most of it’s a “prison break” from the insanity of the FOF.

Paul, since you didn’t elaborate, I have a feeling you’re wishing you could have stood up and said the same at a meeting at the Galleria or the town hall? Or are you currently a member and can’t?

Imagine the shirt and tie and jacket sitting in the second row, and being called upon by Girard, and then standing up and turning toward the 150 people in attendance. You clear your throat, and you state, “You’re all nuts, and here’s why…” After a long “angle,” you then calmly take your seat.

Interesting that people no longer give “angles” at meetings. I’m guessing the reason for this is that Burton is well aware of the above possibility.

135. Daily Cardiac - September 11, 2008

Veronicapoe – 120:

“I.e., doing noble (as he defined them) things for Germany was the higher good, and moral laws had to be violated in order to, as you put it, obey a “spiritual law.” How is your argument any different, reduced to its essentials, than this?”

My argument is different because Robert or FoF has not murdered 6 million men, women and children. I’m sure a lot of people would not buy into your comparison.

There are no similarities other than contrived ones. First of all there is nothing “noble”‘ in Himmler’s speech; it’s extremely transparent that he’s talking about forcefully conquering nations. If he alluded to anything spiritual I missed it. And if I’m not mistaken Hitler tipped his hand long before 38 years in power.

But I understand what’s going on; it’s a branding device; mention Robert with Himmler/Hitler and let people associate from there. People who do this usually aren’t even aware they are doing it.

A while ago an ex member made a direct comparison between Hitler and Robert based on the perceived mistreatment of an 87 year old student with alzheimers disease.

To imply some kind of link between Nazi Germany and the FoF is irresponsible, and to do so requires a thorough avoidance of the principle of scale.

136. Richard M. - September 11, 2008

125. Paul de Silva

Hey Paul, you Lolo!

137. Opus 111 - September 11, 2008

Old Fish

One student claimed that angels visited him and spoke directly to him about how the Fellowship was the only real school. He left the Fellowship a year later.

I have follow-up information on this: the angels did come back a year later, mentioned that there had been much and terrible confusion in their filing system, apologized profusely, and advised him to leave FOF immediately.

Daily Cardiac, the tautology master

The conundrum is that life cannot see conscious beings, cannot see when a spiritual law is being obeyed at the expense of a moral law…

“We cannot distinguish the form of the school from the school’s substance (consciousness) until we can distinguish the lower from the higher in ourselves.
And we cannot do that until we verify Influence C. Not just verify their existence, but verify the extent of their domain. Then it becomes clear that everything that happens is willed into being by them and governed over by them. ”

No wonder you have trouble with the concept of self-sealing arguments. You live them and you are making plenty of them.

Here is one for you (made up from FOF/REB memories):

“My purpose and that of C-influence is to help you awaken.
C-Influence works with each of you. I only work for you, I love you.
Everything happens for a purpose, but for those in a real school, everything happens for the purpose of awakening, for their soul.”

It takes work and a bit of luck (?) to get out of that fish tank. It is sealed by the fallacious concept of verification, where you are only allowed to validate and use verifications that are part of the self-sealing arguments(s).

So to help you a bit, Daily Cardiac, why not answer Whalerider’s question (What makes you think the FOF is not a cult) or personally revisit that pesky concept of conscience?

138. Rear View Mirror - September 11, 2008

Stating that there’s a “link” between the FOF and Nazi Germany is a misrepresentation of the viewpoints stated here on the blog. What many people have stated is that there are numerous similarities to Nazi Germany from the standpoint of thought control, propaganda, and mindless loyalty to a corrupt leader.

By the way, DC, using the word “irresponsible” is what I’d call “phony outrage” to borrow a phrase from one of the esteemed presidential candidates. Good PR technique!

139. brucelevy - September 11, 2008

136. Richard M.

Hey Rick, I can’t find you on GF anymoore.

140. Daily Cardiac - September 11, 2008

Veronicapoe – 130:

I do believe it’s possible to state one’s views without the need to convince others of them. Convincing others is out of my control, so why concern myself with it. On the other hand expressing one’s views in another matter. If anyones makes a connection that’s fine, if not so be it.

Also if I don’t answer every question it’s usually because I don’t have the time. I mentioned before that often I am the lone supporter. One of my posts might get disputed or contradicted by 10 or more people. I would have to make a job of it to answer everyone, and some, it’s clear, just want to use my answers as fodder to attack them further.

Regarding “self-sealing” perhaps my example wasn’t a classic one, but from your examples I’m pretty sure I understand the concept.

Regarding “self-serving” I think anything “self-sealing” will also be “self-serving.” For me it’s splitting hairs.

“Take off the good student mask and let us have a look at your humanity.”

The only thing under the good student mask is a good student, as far as I can see. If you think I am less human than others here I would suggest had something to do with the fact I am a student.

141. whalerider - September 11, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
“The only thing under the good student mask is a good student, as far as I can see.”

And thus you see the content of a good student as a “thing”…not a person, nor a place, but a thing, an object….in fact, a narcissistic object, a tool for personal gratification.

OK, sometimes what you say, the words you unconsciously choose, speak volumes, too.

What makes you think the FOF is not a cult?

142. dragon - September 11, 2008

121. veronicapoe – September 11, 2008

I would like to add something to veronicapoe’s thinking of H. Himmler. He and his helpers succeeded in indoctrinating the SS but the difference to R.B.’s FoF is:

The Germans did it, they murdered all these Jews, Roma, Sinti, Communists…
The Jews……. had no possibility to “taste” the “1000 jährige Reich” and his “benefits” in some kind of introductory meeting.

Robert.E. Burton is a seducer and a manipulator of souls.
He also tempted the centre of the hearts of many valuable men.

Of course HE takes money!

But are there concentration camps in his vineyard?

The victims of H. Himmler/Hitler…. had no or only a few chance/chances to escape.

I hope this blog can be helpful to warn curious people or to liberate them from this mentally sick old man, called Robert Earl Burton.

And another annex: I can’t find nuts (125. Paul) on this blog.
Intellectual creativity with “esprit” enjoys…………..

Greetings

143. tina - September 11, 2008

I have been reading a bit about cult deprogramming. One of the tips given was to stop using the language of the cult. Its amazing how many times during the day I find myself about to say some cult word and have to stop and find a more sensible word.ie one that makes sense.
I feel that I need some help with the deprogramming process, its is starting to seem a bit futile to talk over and over again with people that are in the same boat, mostly wondering where the fuck the oars are. Any suggestions or how to move on from a state of paralysis would be appreciated.
I am sure that many people reading this blog could use some really practical advice in this area. I know that part of it is to speak up and say whats been hidden for so long inside of ourselves but I don’t want to end up having “that” be my life.
I really want to hear what DOES work to get over it? What has worked for you?

144. Opus 111 - September 11, 2008

Daily cardiac

I have rewritten a bit the Himmler analogy to make it less “offensive”. There are many variations on that theme.

_________________________________________
One principle must be absolute for the ascending souls: we must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own school and to no one else. What happens to the masses, what happens to the rest of the planet, is a matter of utter indifference to me. Such good magnetic centers as there may be among the nations we shall attract for ourselves, if necessary by giving them false passports and bringing them up among us. Whether the other peoples live in comfort or perish in cataclysms interests me only in so far as the moon needs it for the ray of creation. Whether or not thousands die in the Great California earthquake interests me only in so far as C-Influence fulfills their prophecy. We shall never be rough or heartless where it is not necessary; that is clear. We ascending souls, who are the only people in the world who practice external consideration, will also adopt a decent attitude to these sleeping machines, but it is a crime against our own souls to worry about them and to bring them the Sequence. I shall speak to you here with all frankness of a very grave matter. Among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. I mean the dismissal of students… Most of you know what it means to see a hundred students leaving, five hundred, or a thousand. To have stuck it out and at the same time–apart from exceptions caused by human weakness–to have remained good students, that is what has made us who we are. This is a page of glory in our history, which has never been written and shall never be written: It is written by Great Influence C

145. 'I see' said the blind man - September 11, 2008

Great question Tina.
Once out of the FOF, I don’t think you can just replace words, you need to incorporate the whole experience of being in the cult back into your life and move on, which is a longer term proposition. We derived our sense of identity by knowing certain things and being in a certain relation to people who we respected and valued as being more developed; if you now see that the things we knew and the people in the cult were part of a system of control and exploitation the challenge is far greater than not thinking and speaking in FOF system terms. I think the whole bunch of bollocks needs to be ditched, inculding the fourth way.
We have things in common, like being needy for an expanation and dependent on ‘finding something’ to make sense of our lives. I find it really exciting to be free of the crap, there is so much to explore that was out of bounds to us in the FOF. On the blog you can see how some folks (quite understandibly) are still trying desperately to salvage something and take it with them. I can’t do that. It is like having a dead pet stuffed, putting it on wheels and taking it for walks. If it is dead, bury it and make sure you don’t run straight out and get another one.
The whole subject of evolutionary biology is very interesting. Lots of explanations that don’t need any god or intervention from unverifiable forces. In the end, the FOF and fourth way systems pander to the base human need to have a purpose, as do all religions (even if the fourth way is quite elegant and intellectually satisfying and the FOF emotionally involving). I would think big picture thoughts on why you swallowed the bait.
Humans want to be happy (including being consoled by or satisfied with answers to the obvious questions). If you see what everyone is up to as driven by this desire many things make sense. If you are the type to be happier belonging to something to give meaning to your life, then you will be attracted to another system – no shame in that. If you are looking for the truth (if the search makes you happy rather than the answer) then you will become more of a loner and run certain psychological risks. You probably don’t have too much choice in the matter as it is determined by genetics and your cultural predispositions (memes). One great relief for me was to understand that when I die I will be dead – completely dead other than whatever influence survives through my offspring or peoples contact with me, neither of which is of much account.
I think it comes down to really big picture questions like that.

146. whalerider - September 12, 2008

Tina:
“I have been reading a bit about cult deprogramming. One of the tips given was to stop using the language of the cult.”

Music to my ears…start by calling the FOF what it is: a cult (not a “school”), Robert is a cult leader (not the “teacher”) and those in the cult are followers (not “students”).

Freedom begins with freeing your mind.

147. Rear View Mirror - September 12, 2008

Tina (143) wrote: “One of the tips given was to stop using the language of the cult.”

I think the above tip is really helpful, or at least that’s been true for me. I really liked your post. Even before leaving the FOF, I tried this, and I believe it helped me to detoxify from the group think, and eventually to leave.

I know a lot of former “cult participants” here on the blog wouldn’t welcome the following advice, but not using the cult language means putting aside the so-called “fourth way” ideas. And even putting aside the term ‘fourth way’.

At least for a time.

I am not currently ready or willing to throw away all of the ideas that I learned in the FOF, but I think setting it down has been really helpful for me. Not talking about body types. Not talking about centers of gravity. Not talking about alchemy, not talking about chief feature, not talking about divine presence. Instead, to at least question these ideas, apply scrutiny to them that is rarely applied in the fof, and to think critically about them — to have doubt, and to ask if ourselves what we really knew or confirmed.

Notice the use of the word “confirmed,” and not “verified.”

I had a dear, close friend offer this suggestion to me a long time ago. I felt this was one of the best advice I was ever given. It helped me to escape. It changed my life.

148. Opus 111 - September 12, 2008

Tina

What is helping me is to immerse myself in the activities I am involved in, job for instance. I do not mean becoming obsessed with a job or career, but just giving my best, leaving the old sense of “superior non-belonging” home and instead chat with co-workers at breaks about their life, what interests them, going out with them.
Reading stuff that is non esoteric, not overtly spiritual, but still close to the heart. Savoring the moment without asking why or how.

Granted, I qualify as a novice at this (-29).

149. Opus 111 - September 12, 2008

Develop the pragmatic in myself (what is the evidence?)

Do not buy silk or pastel colored clothes for the next 5 years (from Elena).

150. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

tina, you can write to me at veronicapoe@gmail.com

151. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

I do believe it’s possible to state one’s views without the need to convince others of them. Convincing others is out of my control, so why concern myself with it.

You have a curious belief in your own ineffectiveness as a communicator. Persuasion is an art. Communication is an art. Are you saying you are completely inept and ineffective as a persuader or communicator?

Also if I don’t answer every question it’s usually because I don’t have the time. I mentioned before that often I am the lone supporter. One of my posts might get disputed or contradicted by 10 or more people. I would have to make a job of it to answer everyone, and some, it’s clear, just want to use my answers as fodder to attack them further.

I sympathize; and yet there are some people–I speak for myself–who are actually talking to you with the notion that you might be able to hear. So maybe you can exercise one level of responsiveness to those, and another to those who just want to throw eggs at your words.

Regarding “self-sealing” perhaps my example wasn’t a classic one, but from your examples I’m pretty sure I understand the concept.

On the contrary, you have written nothing which gives any indication that you have any understanding of the concept. I am not saying this to insult you; I am saying this because I want you to understand that I am actually paying attention to the person posting, not just to your words.

Regarding “self-serving” I think anything “self-sealing” will also be “self-serving.” For me it’s splitting hairs.

Please notice the “for me,” for the following reason: The issue is, do you have a clear idea of what a “self-serving doctrine” is, or not. It is a true binary choice. Either you understand, or you do not understand. Either you have tasted chili, or you have not. If you say, “I think anything “chili” will be also be “ratatouille”; for me it’s splitting hairs,” it becomes obvious that you do not know what “chili” is. Take off the blindfold. Wake up and taste the chili. You have an intellect: show some discipline by using it, man!

The only thing under the good student mask is a good student, as far as I can see. If you think I am less human than others here I would suggest had something to do with the fact I am a student.

I think this is an honest response, but it misunderstands my invitation to drop the mask. I do not think you are less human than others here, far from it. Others have characterized you as a shill (a word you should look up if you don’t know it, no shame in looking up words), but I suspect you are an apologist, not a shill. We were all good students once. That just showed we were idealistic. The more idealistic we are, the more manipulable we are. If we idealize the the Titanic, thinking it invulnerable to icebergs, we may find ourselves clinging to the mast at the bitter end.

152. arthur - September 12, 2008

Tina (143),

I read Fourth Way Books for a few years before meeting the Fellowship of Friends. The only reason I met the FOF was because the books say you can only develop yourself up to a point and no further. You need a Group if you are serious.

I wasnt in the Fellowship very long (about 2 years). I am a slow learner that was one of my problems. I also had a hugh Fear feature.

I was kicked out. I never Got that the Fellowship of Friends were friends nor did I Get they helped the weaker ones out. To me it was everyman for himself.

Even then I truly believe I lost a True School and was doomed to help the moon grow daisies. It was bad for a long time.
A castaway.

I know I was emotionally “screwed” for a long time (I don’t use psychological words too much anymore).

The simplest thing I can tell you is that “Time does heal”. For me it was a slow “numbing” over time.

This blog and it’s information was a total shock to me regarding The Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton. The more I read the more “free” I was of old Psychological Junk.

I now thank my “lucky stars” and Tuesday Grace that the back streets were my true school.

A pirate for life.

153. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

[veronicapoe:]
“I.e., doing noble (as he defined them) things for Germany was the higher good, and moral laws had to be violated in order to, as you put it, obey a “spiritual law.” How is your argument any different, reduced to its essentials, than this?”

[daily cardiac]
My argument is different because Robert or FoF has not murdered 6 million men, women and children. I’m sure a lot of people would not buy into your comparison.

Veronicapoe:
Daily Cardiac, you miss the point. The point is to demonstrate that the logic of the premise –that moral laws may need to be violated to fulfill spiritual laws–is an intellectual manuever of justification can be used to rationalize unspeakable crimes.

[daily cardiac]
There are no similarities other than contrived ones. First of all there is nothing “noble”‘ in Himmler’s speech; it’s extremely transparent that he’s talking about forcefully conquering nations. If he alluded to anything spiritual I missed it.

Permit me to direct you to the following link at the Simon Wiesenthal Center, http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395043 , which includes the attached quote from Hitler:

“We judge by the spiritual energy which a people is capable of putting forth, which will enable it in ten years to recapture what it has lost in a thousand years of warfare. I intend to set up a thousand year Reich and anyone who supports me in battle is a fellow-fighter for a unique spiritual-I would almost say divine-creation. At the decisive moment the decisive factor is not the ratio of strength but the spiritual force employed. Betrayal of the nation is possible even when no crime has been committed, in other words when a historical mission has not been fulfilled.”

[Daily Cardiac]
But I understand what’s going on; it’s a branding device; mention Robert with Himmler/Hitler and let people associate from there. People who do this usually aren’t even aware they are doing it.

Veronicapoe:
I see this as simply a defensive manuever to evade the point of the exercise and keep it out of your awareness, by rejecting the subject matter of the comparison. I am saying that certain ways of thinking have a history of providing rationalizations for evil conduct and for keeping people unaware of evil conduct going on right under their noses.

154. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

Er, make that “self-sealing doctrine.” My bad.

155. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

(referring to 151, the fourth non-italic paragraph.)

156. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

It should read as follows:

Please notice the “for me,” for the following reason: The issue is, do you have a clear idea of what a “self-sealng doctrine” is, or not. It is a true binary choice. Either you understand, or you do not understand. Either you have tasted chili, or you have not. If you say, “I think anything “chili” will be also be “ratatouille”; for me it’s splitting hairs,” it becomes obvious that you do not know what “chili” is. Take off the blindfold. Wake up and taste the chili. You have an intellect: show some discipline by using it, man!

157. Across the River - September 12, 2008

Arthur,

Please say you’re headed away from the Texas coast in the next day. No news will be good news. I hope you’ll check in soon if you still have a computer after Ike blows through. Good luck to everyone there.

158. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

More on the spiritual ideology of Hitler from the Simon Wiesenthal Center:

—————[begin quoted material]——————–
Hitler often spoke of an “historic” or “higher mission” of the Aryan race and its elite core, the German people. The Aryans, according to Hitler, were once rulers of the earth, the highest race of mankind, endowed with the highest degree of spiritual qualities and the only ones capable of producing a higher civilization. Aryans were, in essence, god-men on earth, but through blood poisoning lost their ruling position. However, as its “higher mission,” the German people were destined to regain this position for the Aryan race. To do so, Germany must restructure its political and social foundations and create a state whose function was to promote the Aryan culturecreating “spiritual elements” that exist in the blood of the German race. If this were done, racially and thus spiritually pure human beings could be produced, ensuring Aryan world domination.

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395043

159. elena - September 12, 2008

Tina, a hug to you.

One thing that helped enormously was going where I grew up. Pieces of essence fall back into place by the shere contact with familiar surroundings. We were all much more integrated when children and one of the biggest damages after the Cult experience is that our four centers are out of balance. It’s fine to acknowledge that but no need to put any pressure on one’s self. Pressure is what we had in the Fellowship and it is very good to rest from it.

Then trust your self. That is, don’t be afraid to fall on your self every time you seem to be falling out! We still are our own best company especially after getting Robert’s dictatorship out of our selves.

It is like a divorce or a death so don’t be afraid of going through the suffering. Real suffering never killed anyone, it just makes us stronger and wiser.

And most of all, do things that you truly enjoy.

160. elena - September 12, 2008

“The person afflicted with the emotional plague limps characterologically. The emotional plague is a chronic biopathy of the organism. It made an inroad into human society with the first mass suppression of genital sexuality; it became an endemic disease which has been tormenting people the world over for thousands of years. There are no grounds for assuming that the emotional plague is passed on from mother to child in a hereditary way. According to our knowledge, it is implanted in the child from the first day of life. In is an endemic illness, like schizophrenia or cancer, with one notable difference, i/e., it is essentially manifested in SOCIAL LIFE.” W. Reich. Character Analysis

Another aspect of fascism worth taking into account in relation to the Fellowship and cults in general is that the behavior of the people who submit to the dictator or the guru is essentially the same. People who in childhood submitted to authoritarian parents, teachers, bosses, military or other hierarchic structures in which they were consistently subdued, can easily fall into blind idolatry for the guru, allowing for the systematic justification of his corrupted lifestyle at their own cost.

The Fellowship Cult does not kill people physically, why would it when it disables them psychologically and puts them to work for its benefit and only its benefit? The forms of slavery have gotten too sophisticated for people to have to bother to kill anyone to abuse them as much as they want. Just get a hundred corrupt inner circle people to say that they are in a Conscious School with a divine being and they’ll submit thousands without the slightest difficulty. In fact they’ll pay to get raped and pay for others to get raped.

161. Daily Cardiac - September 12, 2008

Old Fish – 122:

“But let’s look a little closer at the idea that you cannot compare Robert with David Koresh or Osho or James Baker. Just because Robert is “not as bad” does not make him good or make it worth giving up your will to him.”

There was nothing in my writing to suggest I was making the point that Robert is “not as bad” as those mentioned. I was pointing out that there is no actual relationship with the actions of those individuals and Robert’s actions
.
Many people; business leaders, statesmen, car enthusiasts, etc. own one RR.Having however many as Osho had (200?) bears no relationship to having one.

Taking millions of dollars, stealthily, from a congregation, against the church’s charter, to use solely to enhance one’s personal wealth bears no relationship to using teaching payment income to acquire art owned by the FoF and displayed to the general membership, or palm trees planted in public (for members) parks, or for paving the FoF roads, or promoting high level concerts and ballets for members.

Regarding Robert’s fine clothes; to answer your question, one of Meher Baba’s teachers, Sai Baba, someone he thought of as “a perfect master” had the same propensity for fine clothes as Robert. (I think Sai Baba also liked fine cars, and fine women).

One thing you don’t take into consideration is that Robert will wear these items of clothing a few times and give them to students.

So, someone on salary will get an article of clothing he could never afford on his own. I remember once he sent me to deliver a cashmere overcoat to a student on salary. The student was thrilled to receive this gift.

“Cult” is a very broad category. Anyone can call any organization a cult. Maybe you or WhaleRider can name a “cult” you would compare the FoF with and we can start from there.

As far as Verification, it is a big area, and extremely difficult to articulate. I did mention it exclusively in a post two or three pages ago. I don’t know that I would have much to add.

I will say that the term “personal verification” is redundant, as it’s the only kind of verification there is. There are steps to take that lead one to the doorstep of verification. It is a process, and if one adheres to the process results will follow.

Opus111 – 137:

Is the truth self-sealing? If someone were telling the truth and it also fit the description of a “self-sealing” doctrine how would you distinguish that?

Personally I don’t think you could. These doctrines are constructed to filter out lies but truth would slip through unnoticed.

162. Rear View Mirror - September 12, 2008

Daily Cardiac, you are on relentless dude.

And you are both
1) a masterful spin machine, and
2) in deep denial.

No matter what the evidence, no matter what the facts, no matter what the truth.

Doesn’t sound like “divine presence.” Sounds very sad and pathetic.

Are you paid for this? Or do you just enjoy the attention?

163. Opus 111 - September 12, 2008

One thing you don’t take into consideration is that Robert will wear these items of clothing a few times and give them to students.

Fair enough. These clothes tend to go more often to prospective or current sex-partners than others, but he is entitled to preferences, you would probably say.

In my mind, that shows little about his character. You also need to remember that he can afford any clothes he wants any time. In fact, he spends 2-3 days a week to rest away from Oregon House, time largely spend shopping. I was told his American Express bill is paid out of the general fund and amounts to about $40,000 a month. Most students do not make that much in a year. Yes, he plays the role of an executive, and the vast majority of executives make more money than he does. I am also sure that all expenses can be written off as God’s business expenses, taking him where C-Influence wants him and working hard to improve the level of impression for the members of FOF.
_______________________
Is truth self-sealing

I don’t know what you mean. I have come to the conclusion that your apology of REB and FOF is based on faith, and you are betting it is the right choice for you in the way Pascal rationalized his christian faith.

The 4th way (presumbaly why you joined) is not faith-based. The other problem you have is your conscience (the smelly pile sitting in front of the Galleria, home of the leader), which you apparently refuse to address.

164. Rear View Mirror - September 12, 2008

Actually, I meant “one” relentless dude. But some theories may actually have you as “two” relentless dudes, or three. It really doesn’t matter who you are, you know. All anyone needs to do is spew out the FOF doctrine. Deny everything. Anyone can do that, too. It isn’t wisdom. It isn’t awareness. It isn’t “useful.” It definitely isn’t conscience, but of course that’s why you evade the topic.

Doing a quick search on this page alone, the word conscience has been used 27 times so far. Not once has it been used by you despite repeated requests for you to address it.

165. X-ray - September 12, 2008

143. tina – September 11, 2008

“Drop” cult language is a good one.

166. Ames Gilbert - September 12, 2008

Hi Tina,
You ask about what really works to get moving again. I wrote about the ways I personally foundt last year, on page 7-127, and it may be worth repeating. I agree with other posters about the value of changing words. One example of an actual word change I used and still use in my posts is to substitute the word ‘Burton’ for ‘Robert’. This small change helped a much bigger internal change in my relationship to him and his works. I did study what had happened, the actual process before, during and after leaving, in 4th Way terms, for about a year after I left, in the company of two other people, so I could understand and digest it. I made copious notes, some of which I have posted to help others at the same stage—then I intentionally didn’t touch any 4th Way workbooks for ten years after that.

I hope you find something useful in this repost. And if you or any other reader wants to know more about the workshops I mention, you can contact me through the GF site, and I’ll be happy to give details. Best of luck to you on your journey!

_________________________________________________________________
What after the FoF?

I’m posting this in the hope that people leaving or contemplating leaving the FOF can see that there is plenty to do (not a series of impositions but an invitation to explore with fellow humans) when they have cut the cord. Everyone’s path will differ, but reading this brief summary of some aspects of mine may give encouragement.

When I got the boot from the FOF after sixteen years, I decided to try to rethink everything I had taken for granted, as best as I was able. From the start, I recognized that there were necessarily limitations to this process, starting off with the obvious, that here I was (and am) ‘swimming in the soup’ of the culture at large and the particular culture of the FOF, and it is nigh impossible to see outside the soup bowl. I felt I had done good work in the FOF trying to see the limitations of the general culture, and so chose to start with the FOF culture first. In one sense, this was de-programming, in no way different from the work taken on when joining the FOF or any other path of spiritual “evolution”.

Early on in my examination of the “wrongness” that caused me to leave, I could see that one basic precept to work on was the way the FOF culture separates the body from the mind. So, I set to work to re-integrate my body and mind, to start respecting and learning to love my body again, to see that the various centers permeate the body, and how the body in turn informs the mind, that they are one and inseparable. On the practical level, I threw some wild parties with plenty of dancing, then took workshops for people who recognized that they had fractured or remote relationships to their bodies. After some time, this led to the conclusion that separating the mind from the body was not only wrong work, but actually a form of blasphemy, the throwing of the gift of the body into the teeth of the giver, so to speak.

Then I examined my relationships to some of the exercises I had tried so faithfully to follow, that seemed to be the bedrock of the FOF and the Fourth Way. For example, one in particular, the non-expression of negative emotions. I realized early on that for most members of the FOF, including myself, it had instead come to mean the suppression of negative emotions. I found qualified fellow-travelers to help me release the resulting gigantic constipation in my emotional center; and I learned that the exercise should have been “The non-appropriate expression of negative emotions”, and that, as I had previously suspected from time to time, that the ‘negative’ halves of centers are valid, necessary and as perfect as their ‘positive’ counterparts. The suppression was another of the blasphemies (rejection of blessed gifts) taught by Burton. A side effect (everything is connected) was the re-establishment of friendly relations with and a deeper understanding of my instinctive center, the infamous ‘enemy’, the king of clubs.

The next belief I worked on was the idea that my present life was somehow lesser, somehow imperfect and needed correction, and that some reward lay in the future by denying myself the rich experience of living fully (and taking risks) now. I began by trying to accept the cards I had been dealt with, both physical and psychological, and making the most of them. Believe me, living life with maximum juiciness, and without worrying about accumulating spiritual points is like being reborn! I came to see that the idea of imperfection, expressed as ‘original sin’ or any other equivalent (Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and Burton were all raised Catholic/Orthodox, and it shows) thought pattern was just a part of the patriarchal cultural spasm of the last 5,000 years; the accompanying corollaries, that present sacrifice is necessary for theoretical future reward, and that external intermediaries such as priests or gurus are necessary between oneself and the godhead within, are equally invalid.

Now I was on to the next stage, trying to become an ordinary person again. No matter how it was presented (“We are not special, just lucky”, or, “Isn’t it amazing luck that C-influence has chosen us from among the millions to awaken”), the FOF culture told us that in fact we were special; I incorporated this message, as did almost every other member. For me, this one task is taking years (maybe a lifetime), and is a huge undertaking just by itself. One result of this work is the realization that ‘seekers’ in general are not special. There is nothing magical or superior about a seeker, it’s just the random assortment of genes or circumstances, and is no more or less necessary to the Lela, the dance, the play (whatever you want to call it) than the ‘banker’, the ‘tailor’, or the ‘candlestick maker’. I am a seeker, that’s the way I am, so I’m not going to deny or suppress it because of this realization, I’ll still seek self-understanding and enjoy the exploration, but it’s not important in of itself.

Next, I tried to examine the weaknesses that had led me to join the FOF so wholeheartedly, with particular emphasis on the relinquishing of responsibility onto Burton. For example, I took two workshops that dealt with the issues I had with my parents, one for my mother and one for my father. Each multi-day event in the hands of experienced leaders jolted me to my foundations, and I came to a whole new relationship to my parents, much more truly as an adult. The resolution of so much unfinished business also made me realize that this is some of what I had sought of the FOF, and enabled me to complete some more transitions from the FOF culture, and simultaneously from the general culture. Burton’s screwed up relationship to his parents makes the FOF the last place on earth to help in this area. This enabled me to do another related workshop to help resolve unhealthy dynamics between the sexes (another of the wrong results of general culture); now I have lessons learned I try to bring to my marriage.

Which leads me on to love. Back here in “mere” life, I have seen and felt far more love from perfectly ordinary people by the day than in most of the FOF over all the years. Truly, the FOF should be renamed the Fellowship of Conditional Friends! Here in “life”, a term Orwellian in its depravity as it has come to be used by the FOF, I have learned love overflows in abundance. Some is indeed also conditional (that is the human state), but plenty is unconditional, and comes from a multitude of surprising sources. In the FOF, I learned unending distrust; many tales were told of me and others and reported to Burton and acted upon in the most unloving manner. I came to see I could not trust people I had known for years, let alone Burton. So many ‘photographs’ used as weapons, not intended as help, leading to more distrust, the System misused by sleeping leaders to put people back to sleep, in fact to make them sleep more soundly. So now I am learning to simply ‘put what I have to offer out there’, learning to trust that the response will be rooted in the Intelligence in everything that is Love, as I understand the meaning of the parable, “Consider the lilies of the field…”

So, though there are some thoughts and practices above that might be helpful, I mostly offer encouragement. Personally, I felt strongly that moving on to another formal teacher/teaching (at least straight away) would not be useful; I looked for teachers in the people around me, and some experts in specific areas. I did not expect everyone to provide services for free. What I paid for, I considered in every case to be good value. But most of the time, there were lessons for the taking from the Extraordinary that is in every person, so I didn’t have to look far! This was true in the FOF also, by the way.

Finally, everyone who has left has had different experiences. I invite anyone who feels so moved to share what processes they have found useful on this blog; they could be valuable to others. And again, thank you, Sheik, for the forum.

With love,
Ames Gilbert

167. X-ray - September 12, 2008

Listening to Ames, gives pleasure.
Listening to Cardiac gives stomachaches.

168. Mick Danger - September 12, 2008

Today’s Lesson
The new director was on his first day at the mental hospital and was being shown the facilities and being introduced to staff and patients. As they were touring the grounds the new director noticed what looked like a high security building and asked what it was. ‘That is the housing unit for our most difficult patients.’ So they went inside to see the inmates.
Behind the first door was a room filled with exercise equipment, weights and gymnastic gear. The new director introduced himself and asked the patient how he was getting along. ‘Thank you for asking doctor, I figure I’m going to be here a long time, so I might as well improve my mind.’
Behind the second door was a room filled with books & books. The doctor asked the same question and the patient replied: ‘How nice of you to ask doctor, I figure I’m going to be here a long time, so I might as well improve my mind.’
The next room was filled with nuts of every sort and in the middle of the room the patient was lying naked on a table with an erection and a peanut balanced on the tip of his penis. The doctor asked him how he was doing and the patient said: ‘I’m fucking Nuts’

169. Mick Danger - September 12, 2008

Oops, the first door guy was improving his body (not mind), the third door guy is still nuts.
“You may be right, I might be crazy,
but it just might be a lunatic you’re looking for.”
Jagger / Richards (Garth Brooks version)

170. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

So far as I can tell Cardiac uses his mind in a very loose and approximate way. Chili and ratatouille are very different but they both consist of edible substances that one puts in the mouth and swallows. So at a certain level of abstraction they resemble one another. Self-sealing doctrines and self-serving excuses both begin with that double “s” descriptor, so that’s a similarity. The double “s” descriptor is followed by a plural noun, so that’s a similarity. The first concerns ideas while the second concerns language artifacts, so that’s a similarity but a less close similarity than the first two. But I guess if you scrunch up your mind sufficiently and don’t conduct an examination, you see two blurs that are vaguely similar.

A pigeon cannot not be transformed into a parrot with a few dabs of paint and the admonition to squint.

171. whalerider - September 12, 2008

Daily Cardiac:

Here’s your dose of c-influence for the day:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9rTQm2vvhuM

See you at the movies!

172. Rear View Mirror - September 12, 2008

From Ames: “One example of an actual word change I used and still use in my posts is to substitute the word ‘Burton’ for ‘Robert’.”

A few years ago, I was having lunch with some old friends — former cult members — and I can still remember the mild jolt it gave me when they used the name “Burton” instead of “Robert.” I have no idea if any of you have had the same reaction to the use of the last name “Burton,” for me at the time it seemed a bit disrespectful — a bit “negative.”

To this day, when I read a post with “Burton” in it, there is a very small — and hopefully, shrinking — part of me that still reacts the same way.

A group’s avoidance of negative words is a powerful tool for controlling that group.

173. whalerider - September 12, 2008

Ames and RVM:

Right on! Thanks for that. That wasn’t even on my radar screen.

Burton

I have updated that file.

174. veramente - September 12, 2008

Tina,
I left years ago and when I did I was in a sort of a daze, there was no blog, no support, some friends still “in” who accepted me being out.
Some closed their hearts/doors to follow the “will of the teacher”, a good excuse for not taking personal responsability for relationships?

My life was a mess, financially and otherwise. I went into “life” without any assets and naive views of the world in the areas of work and relationships. I felt I was from another planet in some ways.

What I found outside was a more intelligent world and people and limitless models of the universe for me to explore, I am weary of teachers though, so I am on the alert since I may have within me a propensity to look for the magical “superior being” who can transform my life. The spiritual prince/princess charming so to speak.
I know better now and follow my heart instead…

I know I have no very good suggestions for you right now, but time is on your side, you’ll feel more at ease to explore the world finally out of captivity and if you believe in a soul of some kind, you are claiming the parts of it that were given/stolen away.

Wishing you a beautiful journey on the free and open road!

175. nigel harris price - September 12, 2008

166 Ames Gilbert

We both came to the FOF with a certain amount of schooling in the discipline of silversmithing. It was one of the things I managed to follow through with during my years in California, although my failing financially and leaving the FOF in a psychotic state put an end to the discipline for many years apart from brief attempts to ‘revive it’ within myself. I often wonder how precious metal practitioners in the FOF fared. I have had to put up with chasmed ‘lows’ and transcendental ‘highs’ quite frequently and see them as part of my consciousness and my attitude to my community in which I live, work and have a social life. Now I teach silversmithing and jewellery and have a very strong mental health ‘network’ to help me through times when I would otherwise be sectioned. Do you ever get a chance to go back to silversmithing at all?…..Nigel.

176. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

I have been thinking about poor blindfolded, dizzy Daily Cardiac and his swings at piñatas. He’s got some lacunas, doesn’t he? (A lacuna is a conceptual blind spot.) They cover large parts of his conceptual field, i.e., his mind.

For this reason I propose that he be referred to, not as “Daily Cardiac,” but as “Lacuna Piñata.”

Lacuna Piñata! What a wonderful phrase
Lacuna Piñata! Ain’t no passing craze
It means no worries for the rest of your days
It’s our problem-free philosophy

Lacuna Piñata!
Lacuna Piñata?
Yeah. It’s our motto!
What’s a motto?
Nothing. What’s a-motto with you?
Those two words will solve all your problems

(with apologies to Elton John and Tim Rice)

177. Rear View Mirror - September 12, 2008

whalerider, about using the name “Burton” instead of “Robert,” this also brings back some memories of the conversations all of us would have about Burton while we were part of the cult.

Simply put: We didn’t.

Now, keep in mind, I’m talking about my own experience with the cult. believe what I experienced is a representative example of what many people experienced, and I’m not talking about those who work with the man closely, and so on. But think about it. When did any of us really have a conversation about Burton — unless we were on the verge of leaving the cult. He’s a man we placed our trust in and followed — often quitting careers, leaving families, and putting relationships of hold — and yet rarely talked about him.

Sure, his name came up in conversation frequently:

Student 1: “Robert is traveling next week. I hear he’s going to Italy.”
Student 2: “How long is he gone?”
Student 1: “For six weeks.”
Student 2: “Oh, look at the time. I need to get going.”

In other words, we mentioned him very briefly, and then we changed the topic.

Why? Because Burton is an uncomfortable topic in the Fellowship of Friends. I can recall numerous conversations like the above. Often someone would turn away and take a deep breath. You could read something in their eyes — something was wrong. Something was off.

They were afraid — either intuitively or directly — of the following:

Follower 1: “Robert is traveling next week. I hear he’s going to Italy.”
Follower 2: “How long is he gone?”
Follower 1: “For six weeks.”
Follower 2: “Who’s going with him?”
Follower 1: “Well, XXXX and XXXX have been hanging around him every day, and I hear they’re going. Plus another three or four guys.”
Follower 2: “Wow, do you have any idea how expensive these trips are?”
Follower 1: “It depends if you include just the airfare, hotel accommodations, and restaurant tabs, or if you also include the many items they pick up while shopping.”
Follower 2: “What?”
Follower 1: “You didn’t know? Burton and his guys come back with arm-fulls of packages.”

and so on…

The gossip exercise is to keep the topic of conversation away from the most uncomfortable topic of all — Burton. But you know what — the group-think is so strong it’s doubtful any “exercise” was ever needed. The above hypothetical discussion probably does happen occasionally, but there’s always a cut-off point. People are afraid of the Burton “sub-topics” of:

— Is Burton conscious? How would we know? Is there any evidence that he is or isn’t? What is consciousness? Is there a different way to look at the meaning of our lives?
— Are we truly “sure” about the ideas of the “fourth way”, or are we simply reciting another belief system?
— Are we truly an ark? Are we deluded in believing what this guy tells us?

and so on…

178. whalerider - September 12, 2008

So what I am hearing is that Burton has not only a sex addiction, but a shopping addiction as well, and may have had in the past or may still currently have an addiction to prescription pain-killers.

Addiction is regarded by many mental health professionals as a lack of spirituality, a disconnect with one’s higher power, whatever that higher power means to the individual.

Addictions fill emptiness within.

Daily Cardiac:
How can Burton possibily be a spiritual leader then? Does he not ‘teach’ by example?

I ask you again, what makes you think the FOF is not a cult? Because he says so?

179. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

whalerider, I always knew FoF was a cult from the time I joined. Probably most members know it’s a “cult,” that is, a small group which supports a “charismatic” leader.

Thing is, “cult” can mean many things. If we just hear “cult” as a pejorative cliché, it doesn’t really mean anything and the label just communicates someone else’s value judgment, from which we recoil briefly before discarding. So, I’d suggest your question be reformulated:

“I ask you again, what makes you think the FOF is not a destructive, high-intensity, high-control, closed organization that engages in deceptive and manipulative practices which harm its participants?”

180. Old Fish in the Sea - September 12, 2008

DC and all,

Sometimes our mind creates a structure that makes us think we know. This applies to those in and those out. It makes us uncurious and in my mind, dampens the experience of being alive – essentially it makes us more asleep and sometimes it makes us more judgmental.

Those in the FOF sometimes think those of us that are out are attacking them. In some cases this my be true but speaking for myself, my intent is not to attack – essentially call the views of Daily Cardiac and others wrong, but rather to open the door to a state that is less sure of itself and open to seeing the world and the Fellowship in a new way. That which may seem like an attack is in my mind a presentation of apparent facts and asking how they might be explained by a rational mind. It is also an attempt to shake up attitudes that were formed long ago and may not be flexible enough to take in what is now.

There are many within the FOF that have already put all of their eggs in the FOF bag. They are “on the way”. They might also be called the “inner circle”. They have perhaps long ago closed themselves to other possibilities, either financially or psychologically or both. Some are older and I think they would not do well outside of the FOF doctrine. Who can really say what is best for them? Part of good judgment is a realistic assessment of abilities. Since I cannot know for sure what is best for anyone, I wish them well in their path, meanwhile encouraging all of us, including myself, to continue to be curious, living and learning from the world, growing our own individual relationship to it, while diminishing some of the lies that we carry around inside.

Most moments for all of us, in or out, are basically the same – dealing with the issues at hand. Sometimes it is difficult knowing whether we are standing inside or outside of the jail bars – we only see the bars, we only see the wall between us.

Some of us are more attracted to faith than others. Whether life is a miraculous accident or an intentional miracle, either way it is astounding and we are lucky enough to partake.

I am sorry for those that might have been hurt, or might be hurt in the future by their idealism. I hope we all can work (in our out) to protect them from some of the negative effects of naiveté and the possible abuse of their (and our) idealistic and trusting nature. I also hope that we can keep our minds and senses open so that we care for people, regardless of their attitudes about the Fellowship. Caring sometimes means being frank. There is a time when destruction is appropriate. It is my perception (right or wrong) that the Fellowship is ill and that the illness can only be addressed by leaving or facing directly a form which does not lend itself to healing and tends to reject those that try intercede.

I think finer energies can be found in many ways. Some find them through meditation or yoga, some through the Fellowship, some through books or teachers. For me they are most available at the Yuba river, the crystal clear blue waters of Tahiti, the mountains and glacier’s of Alaska, the warm waters of the Caribbean and in the eyes of my friends, whether in, out or never heard of it.

I still would like to know more about verifications of C-influence if anyone feels like speaking about it. I am interested because when it comes down to it, the concept is the final word used to justify what otherwise might seem wrong about the Fellowship.

Daily Card reports:
“There are steps to take that lead one to the doorstep of verification. It is a process, and if one adheres to the process results will follow.”

With all respect for the difficulty of the task, this is not very satisfactory to me. It is not a very detailed or a personal explanation of what it means and how it feels to verify C-influence. Because of that it reinforces my doubts that anyone really has verified a higher intelligence working directly with us. Many of us tried to follow these so called processes for decades. We are not a totally naive audience.

As there may be steps that lead to verification of C-influence, there are also steps that lead to self and group deception. Furthermore, it is possible to verify higher energies and extrapulate those energies to mean things that they don’t mean. How can we discriminate? I would think this question would be very interesting to those that are betting their life on the FOF and that the questions that some of us pose would provide a way of exploring further.

Good luck to all as we try to navigate.

181. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

When we take swings at Lacuna Piñata, we just want to break open his mind and have his lacunae dissipate. Our swings are good natured, like children swinging at a piñata. We don’t despise him, we despise his illusions, because we had many or most of those same illusions and we despise the destructive effect those illusions had on our lives.

We have high regard for Lacuna Piñata, the sentient being staked out by those cultic illusions like some Gulliver awakening in Lilliput. Hold on man. Listen to us. We’re trying to help. Your participation here as an apologist is, in some tiny part of you (which we can actually hear) a peep of distress. That part of you is trying to test out the beliefs you defend. If you were actually free of doubt, you wouldn’t be here.

182. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008
183. brucelevy - September 12, 2008

181

“We have high regard for Lacuna Piñata…”

As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger “What you mean WE white man?

184. nigel harris price - September 12, 2008

Rear View Mirror and whalerider

I am glad we finally got around to this subject of addictions, mental health practitioners and spirituality. By personal experience, I can say that those who have mental health problems are also more prone to addictive personalities. In the past I have had tremendous difficulties whilst buffering my misery with alcohol excess and getting into trouble, socially. Now I can go for several days without wanting a drink and have cut back on my nicotine consumption considerably.

I am not sure that mental health practitioners and spirituality make ‘good bed fellows’, since there is a type of religious ‘warping’ that goes on in the psyches of both bipolars and schizophrenics and the mental health services try as much as is within their power to bring patients out of these states. (Sometimes when questioned on these ‘warpings’ it is best to deny that you experience them, to get the authorities ‘off your back’.) I have this funny feeling, when REB finally finds himself in court, there will be a great deal of denial of ‘higher states’ and that he is just a ‘private citizen kinda-guy’ who just teaches doctrines.

Addictions, IMO, are filling a void that the Self rightfully should fill. Nigel.

185. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

Bruce if the bottom fell out of Lacuna Piñata’s illusions, you wouldn’t spit on him, you’d help him, because you’re a fundamentally decent guy. That’s really all I’m saying.

186. Ames Gilbert - September 12, 2008

Hello Nigel (#49-175 or thereabouts),
I did not receive formal training in jewelry work, just taught myself out of books (“king of spades” confidence/arrogance, I suppose). I had a workshop in my house in London, and my girlfriend and I made and sold enough things at markets to not get by; typical of many long–haired hippies in those times! After a while, I turned to other things to make money… I was just starting on smithing sheet silver work (as a hobby) when I joined the FoF. Hence the ‘newish’ condition of the planishing tools I lent you at Renaissance.
I gave my tools and books to my nephew in Australia. He wanted to impress his girlfriends, and I felt that was as good a reason as any, and better than some! Making jewelry for someone you like is a special activity, and one can put a lot of ‘heart’ into making it just right. I’m sure he will look at his girlfriends in a quite different way as he tries to make something to suit; that will benefit both parties, for sure!
I always carried round commissioned pieces I had finished in my pockets (with nothing else, of course) for a few weeks; this final polishing gave them extra character and personality, I felt.

187. nigel harris price - September 12, 2008

186 Nice one, Ames…..Nigel.

188. Ames Gilbert - September 12, 2008

Daily Cardiac (#49-161 or thereabouts),
“There are steps to take that lead one to the doorstep of verification. It is a process, and if one adheres to the process results will follow.”
DC, your processes are what I am questioning. For anyone interested in the 4th Way, I’m going to use an absolute. There is no better method, indeed there is no other method, than the scientific method.

You put forward a hypothesis, you plan an experiment to test that hypothesis, you carry out the experiment, you collect data, and you see if your experimental results support that hypothesis or not. Then you publish, that is to say, you present all the preceding (including raw data), without alteration, to the scrutiny of your peers, and let them rigorously examine the whole work, from concept to finish. Then you take light of their feedback (paying special attention to the disagreements with your conclusions) and let it play over the structure you have built, highlighting the deficiencies in evidence–gathering, reasoning, and premises. Phew!

Now, one can see why most followers take the apparently easy road of faith in Burton’s claims and pronouncements. The scientific method is indeed hard and uncompromising. But in the end, the scientific method saves the most valuable things you have, time and energy. Look at your life, or Girard’s. You’ve already spent a very large chunk of your adult life in effect trying to fit round pegs in square holes, an occupation unworthy of true seekers of truth.

189. a k - September 12, 2008

To M__i A_u

Thanks Bruce to have started questionning Mi… Al __u on GF but apparently your post was deleted so here is mine.

Yes, M_li A__u, I could welcome yo too on GF, however it feels a little bit off.
I read few post from people having had past responsabilities in the FOF apologizing for having harmed people over years.
Considering the involvement you had over the past years in the corruption that was going on in the FOF and your special role in it, it would be nice to hear your explananation on this subject.
It would be nice to hear you share sincerely your experience here.

190. brucelevy - September 12, 2008

185. veronicapoe

No, I wouldn’t spit on him. But the rest “you’d help him, because you’re a fundamentally decent guy.” is a straw man and basically horse shit. He wouldn’t ask for my help (short of me finding him lying in the street) and him seeking mine would be just bizarre. If you’re talking in a rhetorical, super-general way, ok, but I can’t see why you would. Decent guy doesn’t necessarily mean schmuck too.

191. spoonful - September 12, 2008

125 Paul de Silva

“You’re all nuts.”

A bit of a generalisation there, Paul.

What kind of nuts? Almonds, Hazelnuts, Peanuts, Chestnuts, Pistachios, Walnuts, Cashews, Pecans, Macadamias to name a few…

192. fofblogmoderator - September 12, 2008

189 is newly moderated

193. spoonful - September 12, 2008

143 – Tina

Time… and keeping a sense of humour.

194. veronicapoe - September 12, 2008

189/Bruce
You’re missing what I’m saying, probably because of my crisp, unadorned writing style. If Lacuna Piñata could lose that lacuna piñata which he mistakes for a functioning mind, he’d turn out to be a decent human being. There was a time when each of us had a lacuna piñata and as a result we did and said things that were very un-mensch-like. But somewhere underneath it, we were mensches. I have no doubt you, Bruce, are a mensch. I have no doubt somewhere inside Lacuna Piñata there is a mensch to be found, staked down, Gulliverlike. It is that mensch whom I’m talking to.

195. arthur - September 12, 2008

Where I live on the coast of the Gulfo de Mexico is now under a hurrican watch. Our “leaders” only expect tropical storm winds with gusts and heavy rain. The storm is going to hit the Houston area about 200 miles north. But one can never tell?

Some authorities up the road have issued a pretty clear and simple warning. “Stay and you die”.

Which reminds me of this blog and all the “winds” blowing toward the Fellowship of Friends enclave. By winds I means the open discussion. You know, as Bob Dylan said, “the answer my fellowship of friends is blowing in the wind”.

From the blog hurricane to the cozy cove of Burton’s enclave…
“stay and you……..”!!

I dont have spell check nor grammer correctors, so forgive me.

A pirate for life

196. Daily Cardiac - September 12, 2008

CONSCIENCE:

Conscience can be thought of in any number of ways; a “higher faculty” of the mind, an “organ” of perception, an instrument by which we recognize truth. In the bible it says “Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” I believe this statement alludes to conscience in man.

I also believe that conscience, in most men, exists only as a potentiality, not an actuality. Conscience is an instrument of knowing, of discerning, but not of doing. It can only show us the truth, but it cannot help us move towards truth or live by truth. That requires will, and will is a property of consciousness.

Only enlightened men, or those moving towards enlightenment, experience conscience as an actuality. The world would be a very chaotic place (much more than it already is) if this were the whole story though.

Ordinary men, those not seeking an enlightened state of existence, experience conscience through a substitute or proxy “organ”. The substitute for conscience in those men is Feminine Dominance.

F D is a conforming principle. It is a cosmic law that men are under, on the level of essence, whose existence and effect on them they are unaware of. F D allows men to realize conscience in a partial, mechanical, way. While most men can distinguish good from evil through their conscience, F D helps them “obey” the good or the higher in themselves and move away from the lower.

With the help of F D many people obey civil or moral laws because they fear the repercussions of authorities should they break those laws, or they fear that their peers would not consider them to be good people. They also fear that if they harm a person that person may retaliate and harm them.

However most people are not aware of their true, innermost motivations, they are cut off from them by many layers of buffers and justifications. Most people (being unaware of F D) simply believe they enjoy doing good for good’s sake, as an end in itself. Undoubtedly there are some who from time to time really are in this category (doing good purely for good’s sake). That effort would be akin to external consideration, which is rare on the earth. Good deeds towards our immediate family or loved ones are also mechanical in nature due to our bonds by blood or attraction.

But even with the help of F D to keep people “in line” more than 7.5% of the entire population of the U S is in prison.

This number only represents those who were caught, convicted and incarcerated for doing wrong. It does not reflect the number of people guilty of crimes but not caught, or caught but not convicted or convicted but not sent to prison. It also does not reflect those convicted of lesser crimes that don’t require prison terms; like shoplifting, minor assaults, DUI, scams, or frauds against the population at large, all types of misdemeanors.

Then we come to “moral” crimes, which are not against the law but which are generally considered morally wrong or apprehensible – infidelity, all forms of lying and cheating, hurting ourselves and/or loved ones by indulging in any number of vices. All these instances, for the most part, speak not of a lack of conscience in man (the inability to know right from wrong) but of a lack of will.

Conscience is roughly adhered to with the aid of a mechanical law, Feminine Dominance. If circumstances change and a more powerful mechanical third force to commit wrong enters the triad there is nothing in place (no will) to prevent someone from doing wrong.

This lack of any consistent adherence to conscience can be readily seen in the lives of many public figures; high ranking politicians, officials, celebrities, famous athletes, etc.

These are the people who reach the pinnacle of their fields. They are considered the cream of the crop, they are role models for nations and continents and just at the time when they should be acting like role models they often do just the opposite. This occurs because when they reach a certain level of “celebrity” or prominence, common people start to idolize them, start to give up their small will to them in a certain sense, and the temptation for the “celebrity” to secure a personal gain cannot be overcome.

This is also why so many “spiritual” gurus go astray. These men are not sociopaths (who are rarer on earth than “gurus”). They are ordinary men who have no real will, but who are placed in situations where real will is required, and the temptation towards self serving actions rush in unimpeded the moment they have people’s trust.

Looking at high ranking politicians we can see that they lie indiscriminately; not because they are farther removed from conscience, but because the stakes are higher – their own potential gain is greater – hence the third force to obey conscience is obliterated.

Millions upon millions of court cases are in progress around the world on any given day and all of them have as participants at least one individual guilty of committing a crime or a wrong against another, or one person falsely accusing another of a crime or wrong. At the root of this is an inherent inability to follow conscience. It is the same with all the wars that are waged, with the rampant corruption found in the corporate world.

It is the reason we all lock our doors at night, why millions of people own guns to protect themselves, why we draw up legal contracts with people for everything and anything. It is the reason why many people don’t trust anyone.

When one adds all this up one then gets a real sense that conscience in ordinary men is indeed a myth.

There is another phenomenon that is a direct result of this inability to follow our conscience. It is the age old phenomenon of judging or blaming our fellow man. Our own conscience is like a sentinel that never goes off duty. It sees every time we do not follow it. People have this innate, gnawing, sense that they are not following the quiet voice of conscience and so they constantly feel a kind of self-judgment because of that realization.

However conscience does not judge, it only watches and accurately reports on what it sees. Still people feel the need to unload this burden of self-judgment and the most expedient way of doing that is to transfer the judgment to someone else. And so we judge our fellow men.

What aids us in our judgment is the illusion we have a choice in our actions. We ascribe choice to our “decisions” when in reality we have no real choice because we have no real will. We are more like a cork in the ocean, bobbing wherever the waves take us.

But this illusion of choice leads us to believe that our fellow men also have a choice in their actions. Our conscience, which never goes off duty, sees the questionable actions of other people and we them for it, as if they had a choice and could act differently in a given moment. We judge others because that is easier than developing will in ourselves. Of course everyone wants will and we would all acquire it if the payment were not so steep.

It’s clear that there are different levels of spiritual development in men. A philosopher said that the difference between a man and certain animals can be less in some cases than the difference between one man and another man.

Men, according to their level of spiritual development, are under different laws. The lower cannot see the higher, so it is easier to observe this in reverse. Children clearly have a different relationship to conscience than adults. This would suggest that conscience can be developed; it is not fully formed at once. Adults can see the difference in conscience between a child and themselves. Young children don’t have a firm grasp of right and wrong, they need to be taught many things. On the other hand children do not know they are lacking judgment; they act on their impulses, with no thought of anything lacking on their part.

Men of different levels of spiritual development are under different laws; conscience in man is not static, it is fluid. Conscience operating in an ordinary man would not process information/observations the same as conscience in an enlightened man. And when confronted with the actions of an enlightened man an ordinary man may very well see them as nonsensical, or even corrupt.

He would understand they are different from his actions, and he would perceive this difference as being inferior to his. The reason for this is simple; we cannot recognize or value something that we ourselves do not possess and are not interested in possessing.

An ordinary man, content with a second state existence and in most cases thinking that is the only existence, cannot recognize an enlightened man, who has made the third state his reality. There is no point of reference other than what the ordinary man has read or heard about higher consciousness.

An ordinary man who is a devout catholic could meet an enlightened man and not be impressed at all, but that same devout catholic would travel around the world to get a glimpse of the pope, whom he would consider a living saint.

Most people would not see anything of value in enlightened men if they encountered them because they consider themselves already in possession of a complete and final state of consciousness; they believe they already possess the only thing an enlightened being could help them acquire.

Christ, who is often considered the greatest spiritual teacher of all time was executed like a common criminal. The execution was not initiated by government authorities, but by the religious leaders of his day. He is not alone. Most great spiritual teachers were persecuted in some form, and the contributions they made were not fully known or comprehended for generations after their deaths.

This brings us to the issue of the behavioral patterns of enlightened men, which for many reasons seems strange, inferior, and possibly corrupt, in the eyes of ordinary men.

Interestingly, F D serves ordinary men by providing an aid in carrying out good or wholesome acts prompted by conscience and fostered by established civilizations. But to reach a higher level of spiritual development F D is exactly what must be overcome and discarded.

F D is like a preliminary stage in a space rocket; needed to get us out of the earth’s atmosphere, but useless and even dangerous to keep once that is accomplished.

When a man has developed real will (not to be confused with the will of an athlete to run faster or farther, or of a business man to make fortunes) he or she no longer needs a proxy to follow through with the promptings of conscience.

If an enlightened man or woman is also a spiritual teacher responsible for raising consciousness in others, he or she will inevitably be required to expose F D to those individuals in their charge; show them how it manifests and how to work against it in order to be freer of its spell.

Some will understand what is happening and others will not. Some will be revolted at the thought of discarding it, as it is a wonderful crutch to carry throughout life.

Others will see and understand that the need to relinquish F D is directly linked to progress along the spiritual path. We cannot remain who we are (in an unenlightened state) and become something new (more enlightened) at the same time. At many points along the way we are asked to make a payment for the right to continue, and a good portion of the payment consists of overcoming the laws of a lower realm.

197. elena - September 12, 2008

The FOF moderator has been considerate enough to forward me the following post asking me if I want to deal with it publicly and asking the semder of he or she would not rather send it to me privateley but I think it is all right to deal with it publicly just as all our experience should be exposed.

It is fine with me Steve to let all these posts come through because they actually help me understand what happened when I reflect on them even if they hurt. So here it is:

“Elena 45
It is quite interesting to see how you easily allow yourself preaching people and tell them how they allegedly lost themselves, while you are justifying your own betrayal of your husband’s basic trust by publicly exposing his sexual life on the WEB.

These are human basic codes, one just doesn’t publicly expose one’s husband’s sexual life. It has nothing to do with cults, it is just simple human basic code that you do not have.

What you have is uncontrolled passion, tones of buffers to justify your disgraceful actions and a lot of chutzpa to preach others and tell them how they should act.” End

And here is my answer: We have already much discussed this issue here, are you new to the discussion or is it just another way of diminishing the impact of what I am exposing by attacking me with this particular aspect of our experience?

You of course hold up the programming that in your male dominated culture, a woman should not expose her husband or her husband’s sexuality socially no matter the situation. While I respect your position, I do not share it.

In fact, I wonder if I was ever Girard Haven’s wife or if any of his wives would say they were actually treated as they would have appreciated being treated considering they were his wives. Surely each one of them thought that being married to the next conscious being on the planet would be something wonderful but have you not heard that Girard is married only to the Fellowship? Does it not make you wonder why Mr. Haven, who is to be the next and only conscious being on the planet following Mr. Burton’s prediction, has in fact lost not one but four wives?

I wonder if I could really be called Mr. Haven’s wife. Do you know that Mr. Haven cannot take his wife on a honey moon without ten or twenty other students because he is so afraid of his own private life and because the Fellowship wouldn’t pay him the money? He cannot stand more than five minutes out of his role because the mask might fall out of his face and he doesn’t know if he can find it again?

I really must ask you whether you seriously consider me Mr. Haven’s wife or did I just qualify to Mr. Haven’s flower arrangement that he had to take to all his dinners, meetings, traveling trips and pray I wouldn’t talk because you know, only feminine dominance talks when a woman talks in the cult and that he only dared to take me out without students four years after we were married when he saw me falling apart from exhaustion?

I tell you, I’ve had some questionable husbands and I am no peach in cream but you must be joking when you actually pretend that I was anything but Mr. Haven’s sexual outlet when he had the time to look at my body as if it were some kind of object taken out of the screen in which he never had to look or dared to look at the woman’s eyes. Do you have any idea what it feels like to spend four years with a man that cannot look into your eyes at any time? Do you know that dogs do that? Most dogs, don’t hold a person’s look?

This must be some kind of comedy that you’re still asking me about this issue, some kind of morbid pleasure that you get from being told in detail what thousands of young men have felt under the presence of Mr. Burton using them sexually without the slightest expression of human contact because I am in fact no different to any one of those men that was sexually used by Robert, only I was sexually used by my own, so called husband who saw me working for over four years day and night looking after him and an old woman with alzheimer’s with enough love to carpet heaven and would not even pay sixty dollars for my medicines when I got sick on one of his trips?

Wife? You think I was ever a wife? What kind of dictionary are you using? It must be for sure one of the “only for macho’s dictionaries” so common in these surroundings in which the code of honor for a woman is to submit herself and everyone around her to the unquestionable authority of her husband’s pathological commitment to Robert Burton who arranged it for him to be followed by pitiful human beings who thought they were not worthy of themselves and relished on feeding his ego just as I did.

You think there was such a thing as wives or women in the Fellowship of Friend’s Cult? Are you joking or are you trying to insult us further after two years of exposing what it is to be a member of the Fellowship Cult where both women and men quickly loose anything close to dignity that can still define them as such? Maybe if you tried saying wmn or mn and took out the vowels from the words we could understand what you are trying to convey. Maybe if instead of wife, you said wvs to define the women in the Fellowship who followed their husbands to their own dysfunctional lives and saw them bend and get fucked physically, emotionally and intellectually not only by Robert but by a whole institution of people dedicated to making their lives more miserable than you could ever find in hell, you would be coming close to acknowledging the condition of wvs or wmn that we so exaltedly endured.

Have you any idea of what it is like to live day after day desperately needing your husband to acknowledge your humanity without anything even close to that happening? Looking for an emotional North in the man you married hoping something will change the next day and the day after and maybe next week and going on and on for years hoping your husband will one day acknowledge you as a human being who actually loved him and his Conscious School and realizing that that will never happen because he has simply lost track of himself and everyone around him because he is no longer a man but a role without a life but a tragedy, a cheap tragiccomedy made up by a sexually retarded fool because there were no heart or brains?

What do you think it is like to watch half a man hit himself day after day because he can’t find a file in his computer or his pencil fell on the ground and swear and scream and hit you too if you question him for treating both himself and you and your home like a pigsty in which he can throw up and shit without consideration, then dress in the silk ties that Robert sent him especially for the role and pretend that he is the next conscious being on the planet to a bunch of blindfolded idiots with their mouths open ready to rape another hundred young males because he has convinced them that that is the path to consciousness?

Perhaps you can call Robert Burton Girard’s wife and Girard a sociopath who would rather play Cults and destroy himself in the game than face his own inability to love after watching pornography for fifty years and being proud of it? Every individual around Robert Burton and Girard Haven is nothing but an object to be exploited and manipulated in this mimics of men that fall apart when they take off their costumes.

I suppose you think I was a wife before I was a student and a student before I was a human being and I should have allowed both my so called husband and the Fellowship to continue raping people indefinitely because that is the code of honor in Cults?

You don’t understand that the main reason for which most of us fell under the spell of Robert and Girard is that they systematically rejected each and every one of us because the more we were rejected the more dependent we became. We trusted them. Loved them. Needed them. Rejecting us personally while pretending to acknowledge us as the “mass of students” was what they ever accomplished consistently because being inhuman was the only thing they themselves were able to develop. And this systematic rejection is what I and thousands of people in the Fellowship have become addicted to because we lost our sense of worth. How long do you think it’ll take me to heal and trust another man? How long do you think us as a collective will take to belong? To value people for what they are and let them value us? To not feel shame? Shame for having never been worthy of the man we chose as a Teacher to lead our lives and have finally realized that those men we accepted as conscious beings are nothing but sick candidates to the asylum?

We are all crazy here somebody said and does anybody doubt it? Can the truth be so offensive that anyone can still pretend that it is a lie? That after years of Fellowship Cult there is still anything that one could call sanity? .

You probably think that I still hang out in Oregon House convinced that I love Girard Haven and that he loves me after a year of screaming because I’m ready to audition for the role of first lady and not because I am so confused that I don’t know where to turn or run but keep going around in circles until I am ready to acknowledge the facts? The fact that I’m emotionally crippled after the Fellowship experience, that I cannot even hold a party because I’m so afraid of the people around me and that I do not need to get offended when those like you call me a whore because men like Girard are not enough men to make anything but whores out of their wives? We are people whose self esteem has been run down to the rings, how long do you think it’ll take us to heal? But I’d rather roll on my rings than on the cushioned made up life of your Fellowship, when you die, you people will have nothing to stand on but will be chasing after your clothing to see if you can remember who you were. You’ll spend a thousand years doing sequences trying to find out whether you ever lived. The funny thing is that if I didn’t care for you I would not tell you these things but if I could, I would kick you to the bones until I got all of you out of there. Get the fuck out you idiots, call the police, the ambulance, the fire department, you’re burning in hell you mother fuckers!

So I was a whore in the Fellowship of Friends and you’re still both Robert’s and Girard’s pimp and now Asaf’s and Dorian’s too. Don’t you think it is time for you to acknowledge the facts and try to do something better with your life or have you been too crippled to look at it and would rather defend it as the only Conscious School in the planet like Girard who already paralyzed himself?

I suppose rather than expose my husband you think I should put two bullets in my head like my mother did when life was too long to put up with, so that you could discard me with your “she was too dysfunctional” but even if you had the chutzpa to pull the trigger, you’d hear my scream for a century until someone starts making sense of our lives. There’s got to be something better than hell on this planet.

What I have is uncontrolled passion? Buffers to justify my disgraceful actions? Thank God I still have enough passion that neither you nor anything in the Fellowship was able to tame it. I’d rather be a mad horse than a circus poodle like everyone of you inside, sick crippled circus poodles convinced that you are going to heaven but frantically digging your path to hell. Disgraceful actions? Get a grip on yourself buddy and try to find out what grace is because it has nothing to do with keeping Robert Burton’s status quo so that the Fellowship continues to go unnoticed. It is already in the papers and too many people know now it is a Cult and at least one judge has heard for over an hour what it is really about so get a grip on yourselves guys because the big bad wolf is gonna come and get yah.

198. brucelevy - September 12, 2008

194. veronicapoe

I understood who you were talking to in the first place. That doesn’t change what I’m saying. Read post 196. I have nothing for this person. If you do, more power to you. Personally, I would use my time in a more beneficial way than to help this moron “recover” himself.

199. brucelevy - September 12, 2008

194. veronicapoe

This is a person who has shown that the only function he’s in touch with is the ole “intellectual center”, with all it’s defenses and guiles. There has been little else shown. No emotional intelligence, no instinctive intelligence. This is a person without functioning conscience. What he thinks is his conscience is an intellectual construct based on careful placement of words. No humanity, no empathy, no compassion. Only a good student act. I think it’s extremely important to know where to spend one’s energy, and you may also but we obviously have different criteria. He needs a rude awakening not “help”.

200. Ames Gilbert - September 12, 2008

Carl Sagan said, “We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology” and, “In science it often happens that scientists say, ‘you know, that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken’, and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. It happens every day, but I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.”

Uh-oh, Daily Cardiac—see how dangerous it is when you train yourself to use the scientific method of inquiry!

201. Opus 111 - September 12, 2008

#198 by Daily Cardiac

Huh???????

Burton may have been right on that one: “DC idea of conscience is a collection of I’s that have impaired his development.”

202. ton - September 12, 2008

Thanks to all…

Tina around 143 — ideally the blog can serve as a “catapult” — at the very least, it’s a good place for reflection (in every sense of the term). It may be cliche’ but it’s true, time changes everything.

“Did we miss anything?”

Laura I think I can speak for others here, we would miss you… not only you, nevertheless…

We were little boys
We were little girls
It’s nine o’clock, don’t try to turn it off
Cowered in a hole, opie mouth. Question:
Did we miss anything? did we miss anything?
Did we miss anything? did we miss anything?
Catapult (catapult), catapult, catapult (catapult), catapult
(chorus)
We were little boys
We were little girls
It’s nine o’clock, don’t try to turn it off
Cowered in a hole, opie mouth
We in step, in hand, your mother remembers this
Hear the howl of the rope, a question:
Did we miss anything? did we miss anything?
Did we miss anything? did we miss anything?
Catapult (catapult), catapult, catapult (catapult), catapult
March could be darker, march could be darker
Catapult (catapult), catapult, catapult (catapult), catapult

203. spoonful - September 12, 2008

195 Arthur

Make sure you get to some high ground, buddy. Preferably a place suitable for an ark.

Good luck – I’m thinking of you.

(We English love to complain about the weather!)

204. Ames Gilbert - September 12, 2008

Daily Cardiac (#49-196 or thereabouts),

Thank you for your well–researched lecture on conscience; that is a lot of material you have collected.
Firstly I have to point out, yet again, your leader’s stated belief,

“Conscience is just a collection of ‘I’s; anyone accumulating too much material there should leave the school”.

Do you agree with this statement, made by Burton on 12th November, 1994, or not? Please explain your reasons, either way.

I don’t know the sources of your massive collection of theories, they are uniformly unattributed, but they are theories, at least to you. How do I know? Because there is nothing personal in them. The only times you personalize your statements is when you say, “I believe this statement…”, and, “I also believe that conscience…” in the first and second paragraphs, and obviously they are not claims about your personal experience.

I’m sorry, but (for me) this makes your whole effort is valueless. You’ve just collected a bunch of opinions from who knows where, and downloaded the lot on us in the form of a lecture. I would strongly suspect that you have not actually ‘worked’ on any of this, have not tried to see if any of your statements are true or false (to the limit of your power). But, if I am wrong, please tell me how and why—and give examples of how you have experienced the truth of anything you say, or better still, whether and how you personally have experienced conscience, and how you were able to tell it from surrounding morality, including the Fellowship local morality. After all, the 4th Way claims that conscience develops in parallel with consciousness, and you have at least experienced some states of higher consciousness—haven’t you?
Moreover, you first say that “one gets a real sense that conscience in ordinary men is indeed a myth”, then state that “Our conscience, which never goes off duty…”. Which is it?

And so on…

Sigh!

205. arthur - September 12, 2008

I have already mentioned this before but I’ll say it again.

I have very little “will” to begin with. When I’m drunk with alcohol I become weaker “willed”.

When a nice looking women “ensnares” my weaknesses, boy am I ready.

I believe Elena in post 197 killed two birds with one stone. One was the continued exposure of the Followship of Friends activities. This blogs purpose.

Future conscious man Haven watched x-rated film for how many years?

He kicks me out because a nice looking woman with a fellowship husband and a fellowship boyfriend is too horney for her and my own good.

It was kind of fun though!

A pirate for life.

206. Rear View Mirror - September 12, 2008

Daily Cardiac wrote: “I also believe that conscience, in most men, exists only as a potentiality, not an actuality. Conscience is an instrument of knowing, of discerning, but not of doing. It can only show us the truth, but it cannot help us move towards truth or live by truth. That requires will, and will is a property of consciousness.”

Quick note:
Not once does he speak about conscience as it relates to Burton’s actions, or how Burton’s lack of conscience affects others. It’s simply a long essay with nebulous theories.

Also, this is one dangerous set of ideas. It chalks up all acts of compassion and empathy for our fellow humans as being a weakness or “mechanical” trait, and which he also refers to as “feminine dominance.”

So, people who show compassion and empathy are not acting out of an enlightened sense or an intelligent set of emotions, but simply out of their own “mechanics.”

What does this mean for those who commit violent crimes or who ruthlessly take advantage of others for their own selfish goals? Well, they are really no different. They are like you and me. Just guys. Just gals. And their hateful actions — just mechanical like yours and mine.

Is it just me? Or does anyone else find this essay (at about 196) to be one of the most chilling of anything on the blog.

207. Rear View Mirror - September 12, 2008

Veronicapoe: Your definition of a cult is one of the more concise that I’ve seen:

“A destructive, high-intensity, high-control, closed organization that engages in deceptive and manipulative practices which harm its participants”

My two cents worth: Until we come up with a better word than “cult,” it’s appropriate and relevant. When a friend pointed out to me that I was a member of a cult, I objected at first. When I finally acknowledged they were right, it set things in motion.

Words are powerful. The avoidance of words is also powerful. But again, if someone can find a better word or short phrase to describe the FOF, I’m all ears.

208. elena - September 12, 2008

Oh it is really a pleasure to be here and have the opportunity to listen to lacuna piñata expose in detail the amazing construction of his imaginary world. It sounds so good, logic and appropriate that it makes me seriously wonder why he would fall in the trap of supporting Robert instead of becoming a conscious being himself. There must be something missing in you Daily Cardiac: Enough trust in your self? Enough love? Enough aloneness?

196. Daily Cardiac – September 12, 2008
CONSCIENCE:

D.C. “Conscience can be thought of in any number of ways; a “higher faculty” of the mind, an “organ” of perception, an instrument by which we recognize truth. In the bible it says “Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” I believe this statement alludes to conscience in man.”

Why do you adhere it to conscience and not consciousness?

DC“I also believe that conscience, in most men, exists only as a potentiality, not an actuality. Conscience is an instrument of knowing, of discerning, but not of doing.”

Where did you get that from? Does conscience not express itself in how a man lives, in the things he does? Why are you dissociating conscience from functions if not because you are split into two different personalities without unity?

DC“It can only show us the truth, but it cannot help us move towards truth or live by truth.”

Another weird assumption.

DC “That requires will, and will is a property of consciousness.”

Where did you find the need to separate conscience to consciousness and adhere will only to the latter?

DC“Only enlightened men, or those moving towards enlightenment, experience conscience as an actuality. The world would be a very chaotic place (much more than it already is) if this were the whole story though.

Ordinary men, those not seeking an enlightened state of existence, experience conscience through a substitute or proxy “organ”. The substitute for conscience in those men is Feminine Dominance.”

What a lot of bullshit. You are standing on the idea that every human being that hasn’t worked on himself is a machine with automatic responses to the world and validating only the programming as the only thing the average man has which is the worst premise presented by the Fellowship to separate itself from the rest of humanity.

DC“F D is a conforming principle. It is a cosmic law that men are under, on the level of essence, whose existence and effect on them they are unaware of. F D allows men to realize conscience in a partial, mechanical, way. While most men can distinguish good from evil through their conscience, F D helps them “obey” the good or the higher in themselves and move away from the lower.”

With the help of F D many people obey civil or moral laws because they fear the repercussions of authorities should they break those laws, or they fear that their peers would not consider them to be good people. They also fear that if they harm a person that person may retaliate and harm them.

However most people are not aware of their true, innermost motivations, they are cut off from them by many layers of buffers and justifications. Most people (being unaware of F D) simply believe they enjoy doing good for good’s sake, as an end in itself. Undoubtedly there are some who from time to time really are in this category (doing good purely for good’s sake). That effort would be akin to external consideration, which is rare on the earth. Good deeds towards our immediate family or loved ones are also mechanical in nature due to our bonds by blood or attraction.”

You poor pitiful piece of a man, you are reducing culture to feminine dominance, you have misconstrued the essence of education to adapt it to your depraved world of immorality and corruption. You have never for a single second of your entire life experienced the beauty of people being kind to each other because it is in the essence of the human being to be kind and nowhere in its essence is there a tendency to be sick and corrupt as the Fellowship became. The development of organized crime such as it is present in the Fellowship Cult contains an element of intentional rationalization of evil and that is what makes it so dangerous. It is difficult for people to understand the concept of intentional, conscious organized crime because it is almost unconceivable for the average human being that anyone would intentionally harm others but this is exactly what the Fellowship Cult is doing and what Daily Cardiac is trying to rationalize here. Take a good look at this post because it is a masterpiece of Fellowship mind structure.

DC “But even with the help of F D to keep people “in line” more than 7.5% of the entire population of the U S is in prison.

This number only represents those who were caught, convicted and incarcerated for doing wrong. It does not reflect the number of people guilty of crimes but not caught, or caught but not convicted or convicted but not sent to prison. It also does not reflect those convicted of lesser crimes that don’t require prison terms; like shoplifting, minor assaults, DUI, scams, or frauds against the population at large, all types of misdemeanors.

Then we come to “moral” crimes, which are not against the law but which are generally considered morally wrong or apprehensible – infidelity, all forms of lying and cheating, hurting ourselves and/or loved ones by indulging in any number of vices. All these instances, for the most part, speak not of a lack of conscience in man (the inability to know right from wrong) but of a lack of will.

Conscience is roughly adhered to with the aid of a mechanical law, Feminine Dominance. If circumstances change and a more powerful mechanical third force to commit wrong enters the triad there is nothing in place (no will) to prevent someone from doing wrong.

This lack of any consistent adherence to conscience can be readily seen in the lives of many public figures; high ranking politicians, officials, celebrities, famous athletes, etc.

These are the people who reach the pinnacle of their fields. They are considered the cream of the crop, they are role models for nations and continents and just at the time when they should be acting like role models they often do just the opposite. This occurs because when they reach a certain level of “celebrity” or prominence, common people start to idolize them, start to give up their small will to them in a certain sense, and the temptation for the “celebrity” to secure a personal gain cannot be overcome.

This is also why so many “spiritual” gurus go astray. These men are not sociopaths (who are rarer on earth than “gurus”). They are ordinary men who have no real will, but who are placed in situations where real will is required, and the temptation towards self serving actions rush in unimpeded the moment they have people’s trust.

Looking at high ranking politicians we can see that they lie indiscriminately; not because they are farther removed from conscience, but because the stakes are higher – their own potential gain is greater – hence the third force to obey conscience is obliterated.

Millions upon millions of court cases are in progress around the world on any given day and all of them have as participants at least one individual guilty of committing a crime or a wrong against another, or one person falsely accusing another of a crime or wrong. At the root of this is an inherent inability to follow conscience. It is the same with all the wars that are waged, with the rampant corruption found in the corporate world.

It is the reason we all lock our doors at night, why millions of people own guns to protect themselves, why we draw up legal contracts with people for everything and anything. It is the reason why many people don’t trust anyone.

When one adds all this up one then gets a real sense that conscience in ordinary men is indeed a myth.

There is another phenomenon that is a direct result of this inability to follow our conscience. It is the age old phenomenon of judging or blaming our fellow man. Our own conscience is like a sentinel that never goes off duty. It sees every time we do not follow it. People have this innate, gnawing, sense that they are not following the quiet voice of conscience and so they constantly feel a kind of self-judgment because of that realization.

However conscience does not judge, it only watches and accurately reports on what it sees. Still people feel the need to unload this burden of self-judgment and the most expedient way of doing that is to transfer the judgment to someone else. And so we judge our fellow men.”

No Daily Cardiac, conscience does not need to judge to know when something is not right. And this transference of self-judgment to someone else is a perfectly childlike theory but is that what the Fellowship did? Judge the whole of the six billion people on the planet for dead so that it could justify its corruption?

DC “What aids us in our judgment is the illusion we have a choice in our actions. We ascribe choice to our “decisions” when in reality we have no real choice because we have no real will. We are more like a cork in the ocean, bobbing wherever the waves take us.

Who are WE talking about dear? You and the Fellowship? No one there has any will? I can agree with that!

DC: But this illusion of choice leads us to believe that our fellow men also have a choice in their actions. Our conscience, which never goes off duty, sees the questionable actions of other people and we them for it, as if they had a choice and could act differently in a given moment. We judge others because that is easier than developing will in ourselves. Of course everyone wants will and we would all acquire it if the payment were not so steep.”

Again are you talking about how the Fellowship judges humanity because it has no will to do anything but exploit it? As it did when Robert decreed to get thousands of loans you would not have to pay? Import men from other countries that would be vulnerable to his assault, etc, etc, etc?

DC “It’s clear that there are different levels of spiritual development in men. A philosopher said that the difference between a man and certain animals can be less in some cases than the difference between one man and another man.”

Oh Dear, how refined, now instead of fascism or racism we are getting into animalism?

DC “Men, according to their level of spiritual development, are under different laws. The lower cannot see the higher, so it is easier to observe this in reverse. Children clearly have a different relationship to conscience than adults. This would suggest that conscience can be developed; it is not fully formed at once. Adults can see the difference in conscience between a child and themselves. Young children don’t have a firm grasp of right and wrong, they need to be taught many things. On the other hand children do not know they are lacking judgment; they act on their impulses, with no thought of anything lacking on their part.

Men of different levels of spiritual development are under different laws; conscience in man is not static, it is fluid. Conscience operating in an ordinary man would not process information/observations the same as conscience in an enlightened man. And when confronted with the actions of an enlightened man an ordinary man may very well see them as nonsensical, or even corrupt.”

We already heard that one dear, can’t you make something else up a little more original?

DC: He would understand they are different from his actions, and he would perceive this difference as being inferior to his.

What a lot of bullshit, you really are sick. Beauty inspires beauty, grace inspires graciousness, right action inspires courage and you and the Fellowship of Friends make me want to throw up.

DC “The reason for this is simple; we cannot recognize or value something that we ourselves do not possess and are not interested in possessing.”

Waoooooocaaacckkkkkkkk

DC: “Ordary man, content with a second state existence and in most cases thinking that is the only existence, cannot recognize an enlightened man, who has made the third state his reality. There is no point of reference other than what the ordinary man has read or heard about higher consciousness.”

Yes dear lunatic, all men are just totally incapable of recognizing Robert for what he is, I wonder why he doesn’t have more students and the one’s that are there are just as you describe them: non beings who can’t distinguish right from wrong, beauty of fakeness, decency for corruption, etc, etc, etc.

DC “rdinary man who is a devout catholic could meet an enlightened man and not be impressed at all, but that same devout catholic would travel around the world to get a glimpse of the pope, whom he would consider a living saint.”

Just like the retarded idiots we were with Robert.

DC .people would not see anything of value in enlightened men if they encountered them because they consider themselves already in possession of a complete and final state of consciousness; they believe they already possess the only thing an enlightened being could help them acquire.”

Really? Are you serious or are you just pretending to be serious dear? Is this catechism number 362 of Fellowship dogma or just dog-ma of your enlightened bribery?

Cynicism apart Daily Cardiac, I sincerely thank you for exposing yourself this much, it is like being with Girard and hearing all the things he had to tell you for twenty years, it makes me so happy I’m out.

DC Christ, who is often considered the greatest spiritual teacher of all time was executed like a common criminal. The execution was not initiated by government authorities, but by the religious leaders of his day. He is not alone. Most great spiritual teachers were persecuted in some form, and the contributions they made were not fully known or comprehended for generations after their deaths.

Jesus was crucified by the game of power between the Pharisees and him, not because he designed a brothel to serve himself with people’s physical and spiritual energy like Robert Burton is doing.

DC
This brings us to the issue of the behavioral patterns of enlightened men, which for many reasons seems strange, inferior, and possibly corrupt, in the eyes of ordinary men.

Interestingly, F D serves ordinary men by providing an aid in carrying out good or wholesome acts prompted by conscience and fostered by established civilizations. But to reach a higher level of spiritual development F D is exactly what must be overcome and discarded.

F D is like a preliminary stage in a space rocket; needed to get us out of the earth’s atmosphere, but useless and even dangerous to keep once that is accomplished.

Really? Who the fuck said that if not the number one pimp at the service of Robert Burton who invented the theory of feminine dominance so that he could get away with systematically raping people without anyone protesting about it. But I and everyone here is protesting. NO, WE WONT HAVE IT YOU SICKOS.

DC
“When a man has developed real will (not to be confused with the will of an athlete to run faster or farther, or of a business man to make fortunes) he or she no longer needs a proxy to follow through with the promptings of conscience.

If an enlightened man or woman is also a spiritual teacher responsible for raising consciousness in others, he or she will inevitably be required to expose F D to those individuals in their charge; show them how it manifests and how to work against it in order to be freer of its spell.

Some will understand what is happening and others will not. Some will be revolted at the thought of discarding it, as it is a wonderful crutch to carry throughout life.

Others will see and understand that the need to relinquish F D is directly linked to progress along the spiritual path. We cannot remain who we are (in an unenlightened state) and become something new (more enlightened) at the same time. At many points along the way we are asked to make a payment for the right to continue, and a good portion of the payment consists of overcoming the laws of a lower realm.”

Oh what fun it’ll be when the lower realm pushes you all into jail for fraud, corruption and crimes against humanity. Continue eating this bullshit all those of you inside and you’ll end up just like him, having to drink men’s semen to think that you’re still alive.

You better double the size of your next post because you’re not even warm in tiring me out.

209. Rear View Mirror - September 13, 2008

Amen, Elena.

210. veronicapoe - September 13, 2008

Bruce, you may be right about Lacuna Piñata. I have a history of giving assholes the benefit of the doubt and a reluctance to label liars liars until their lies are so obvious that no one is fooled. Of course, there are worse qualities in human beings than the propensity to believe that people have something better in them than they are showing to the world.

211. brucelevy - September 13, 2008

210. veronicapoe

I think it’s a good and noble thing to believe that, tempered with some discrimination borne of experience.

212. veronicapoe - September 13, 2008

I propose we conduct an organized game of mad libs in which each of the terms of the so-called Fellowship dialect of the “work language” gets a new label. If ex-members attempting to shed the language of thought reform diligently play the game, it might be helpful to them. Your mileage may vary.

I think Lacuna Piñata has already some shame about the term “Feminine Dominance” which is plainly shameworthy so in his “Psychological Commentaries on the Nature of Conscience” he abbrieviates it F P. Taking that as a cue, let’s relabel it “Foppish Dandyism.” We can call “External Consideration” “Exceptional Courtesy,” and “Third Force” we will relabel “convenient excuse.” “Triad” will be “Causation Wormhole.” “Essence” becomes “Air Guitar Revelry.” “Cosmic Law” we will change to “Annoying Personal Habit.” “Higher,” used as a noun (as in “the higher”) we will change to “Insufferable Pedant,” and “Lower,” used as a noun (as in “the lower”) we will change to “Disgusting Schmuck.” “Buffers” becomes “Cotton Wadding.” Finally, let’s change “Will” to “Personal Integrity.” Ready?

———————-Begin quoted text——————–
Ordinary men, those not seeking an enlightened state of existence, experience conscience through a substitute or proxy “organ”. The substitute for conscience in those men is Foppish Dandyism.

Foppish Dandyism is a conforming principle. It is an Annoying Personal Habit that men are under, on the level of Air Guitar Revelry, whose existence and effect on them they are unaware of. Foppish Dandyism allows men to realize conscience in a partial, mechanical, way. While most men can distinguish good from evil through their conscience, Foppish Dandyism helps them “obey” the good or the Insufferable Pedant in themselves and move away from the Disgusting Schmuck.

With the help of Foppish Dandyism many people obey civil or moral laws because they fear the repercussions of authorities should they break those laws, or they fear that their peers would not consider them to be good people. They also fear that if they harm a person that person may retaliate and harm them.

However most people are not aware of their true, innermost motivations, they are cut off from them by many layers of Cotton Wadding and justifications. Most people (being unaware of Foppish Dandyism) simply believe they enjoy doing good for good’s sake, as an end in itself. Undoubtedly there are some who from time to time really are in this category (doing good purely for good’s sake). That effort would be akin to Exceptional Courtesy, which is rare on the earth. Good deeds towards our immediate family or loved ones are also mechanical in nature due to our bonds by blood or attraction.

But even with the help of Foppish Dandyism to keep people “in line” more than 7.5% of the entire population of the U S is in prison.

This number only represents those who were caught, convicted and incarcerated for doing wrong. It does not reflect the number of people guilty of crimes but not caught, or caught but not convicted or convicted but not sent to prison. It also does not reflect those convicted of lesser crimes that don’t require prison terms; like shoplifting, minor assaults, DUI, scams, or frauds against the population at large, all types of misdemeanors.

Then we come to “moral” crimes, which are not against the law but which are generally considered morally wrong or apprehensible – infidelity, all forms of lying and cheating, hurting ourselves and/or loved ones by indulging in any number of vices. All these instances, for the most part, speak not of a lack of conscience in man (the inability to know right from wrong) but of a lack of Personal Integrity.

Conscience is roughly adhered to with the aid of a mechanical law, Foppish Dandyism. If circumstances change and a more powerful mechanical Convenient Excuse to commit wrong enters the Causation Wormhole there is nothing in place (no Personal Integrity) to prevent someone from doing wrong.

This lack of any consistent adherence to conscience can be readily seen in the lives of many public figures; high ranking politicians, officials, celebrities, famous athletes, etc.

These are the people who reach the pinnacle of their fields. They are considered the cream of the crop, they are role models for nations and continents and just at the time when they should be acting like role models they often do just the opposite. This occurs because when they reach a certain level of “celebrity” or prominence, common people start to idolize them, start to give up their small will to them in a certain sense, and the temptation for the “celebrity” to secure a personal gain cannot be overcome.

This is also why so many “spiritual” gurus go astray. These men are not sociopaths (who are rarer on earth than “gurus”). They are ordinary men who have no real Personal Integrity, but who are placed in situations where real Personal Integrity is required, and the temptation towards self serving actions rush in unimpeded the moment they have people’s trust.

Looking at high ranking politicians we can see that they lie indiscriminately; not because they are farther removed from conscience, but because the stakes are higher – their own potential gain is greater – hence the Causation Wormhole to obey conscience is obliterated.
….
What aids us in our judgment is the illusion we have a choice in our actions. We ascribe choice to our “decisions” when in reality we have no real choice because we have no real Personal Integrity. We are more like a cork in the ocean, bobbing wherever the waves take us.

But this illusion of choice leads us to believe that our fellow men also have a choice in their actions. Our conscience, which never goes off duty, sees the questionable actions of other people and we them for it, as if they had a choice and could act differently in a given moment. We judge others because that is easier than developing Personal Integrity in ourselves. Of course everyone wants Personal Integrity and we would all acquire it if the payment were not so steep.

Interestingly, Foppish Dandyism serves ordinary men by providing an aid in carrying out good or wholesome acts prompted by conscience and fostered by established civilizations. But to reach a higher level of spiritual development Foppish Dandyism is exactly what must be overcome and discarded.

Foppish Dandyism is like a preliminary stage in a space rocket; needed to get us out of the earth’s atmosphere, but useless and even dangerous to keep once that is accomplished.

213. Man Number Zero - September 13, 2008

In post 196, Daily Cardiac wrote:

“But even with the help of F D to keep people “in line” more than 7.5% of the entire population of the U S is in prison.”

No it isn’t. As of July 2008, the US had about 2,300,000 in prison, which is about 1% of the population.

That you would make an error of this magnitude on a fact so easily checked does not inspire confidence in your `verification’ of other facts/

214. veramente - September 13, 2008

196 DC

In a nutshell: your discourse about conscience and feminine dominance is to confuse the issue of personal boundaries and diminish self-trust. Paved road for abuse.

215. ton - September 13, 2008

“…look at each of the stages of psychosexual development. The first stage is the oral stage. This is the stage that tends to occur in infancy (the first year or so of life). For each stage we’ll also consider what is the erogenous zone, what are the fundamental underlying issues, and what fixations might occur. For the oral stage, the erogenous zone is oral, the mouth. The reason why the psychoanalysts suggested this was they observed the degree to which infants were focused on and had a lot of feelings about the process of nursing and the process of weaning. If you watch infants, they really do seem mouth focused, much to the concern of parents who are constantly having to grab things off the floor because babies, once they can move around, tend to stick everything in their mouths. So, the mouth is an important way that babies experience and interact with the world.

But the larger psychological issue being played out is one of dependency and trust. As an infant, you cannot do much for yourself, so you are dependent on others, and must trust them to respond to or take care of your needs. If during this oral stage the parents, the infant’s caregivers are either too withholding of care and affection OR too indulgent of the child’s need for dependency, a fixation might develop. Sometimes the fixation leads a person to become overly needy or dependent. As an infant they felt they were never getting enough, that their caregivers were not meeting their needs; perhaps the breast kept being taken away from them when they were hungry; and consequently they feel like there is always an empty place inside themselves, they feel like they are never filled, they feel—in other words—needy and dependent.

Even as adults, in each new relationship they enter into, they seek to get that nourishment, that care, that nurturing they never felt they adequately received early on during this crucial first oral stage of development. They show these needy, dependent traits throughout life because they’re stuck or fixated at this oral stage. This is called the oral dependent personality—a dependent personality whose origin was the oral stage. But sometimes this same type of oral dependency can arise from being overindulged. In this case an infant, the moment it showed the slightest distress, was immediately coddled and nursed; consequently, it feels itself to be a fragile being incapable of tolerating frustration and being independent.

But this highlights one of the complaints people have about the psychoanalytic approach: there are not clear predictions about how a particular childhood experiences lead to particular adult outcomes; since, for example, a very withholding parent or a very nurturing parent might result in the same oral dependent personality style in adulthood. This makes it very hard to test the psychoanalytic model. A further complications is that problems at the oral stage can also lead to a different type of oral personality—one characterized by mistrust, rejection, and sarcasm. That is because while some infants respond to feeling neglected and abandoned by becoming needy and clingy, others respond by getting mad. For example, some infants, when a breast is being pulled away from them, will grab on and bite–they’re responding with anger because their needs are being frustrated. If this becomes a recurring pattern, it can form part of their character structure. Believing that they their needs will not be met, they withdraw their trust; believing they will be rejected, they reject others first. Psychoanalysts suggest that sarcasm tends to go along with this oral aggressive style because it literally is form of oral aggression, and suggested by phrases like “that person has a biting wit”. Thus, a neglecting, frustrating parent can lead to either an oral-dependent personality or an oral-aggressive personality, and this makes it very hard to predict how a particular childhood experience is going to manifest itself in an adult character structure.

The second stage is the anal stage. It tends to appear during the toddler years, ages two to four, during which the erogenous zone shifts from the mouth to the anus, and the most stressful issue shifts from weaning to toilet training. The larger issue that surrounds the toilet training is autonomy: Can you do things on your own, can you control yourself, and can you accept some social control, meaning doing things when, where, and how society expects you to. Toilet training is just one of the early domains in which a child is asked to conform to a set of social norms.

At this stage again fixations can occur. Perhaps the child is punished and made to feel ashamed if they have potty accidents. As a result, they may respond by getting mad and feeling, in essence: “Hey authority figures! You’re telling me when and where to use the potty? Ha! Well I’m gonna do what I want. I’m gonna have potty accidents just to show you. Yeah, because it’s not me who’s bad, it’s your stupid rules that are bad.” If this attitude becomes their way of coping with and defending against the potential humiliation of not being able to meet a social norm, then it can form part of their character. That is, they get fixated at this angry toddler stage and throughout their life tend to be a disorderly, rebellious, angry individual. Now in adulthood, the person may sound more reasonable, saying: “Here are the reasons why these rules are stupid or beneath me”. But the psychoanalyst would suggest that basic feeling or attitude of rejecting rules arises from an fear of feeling inadequate, ashamed, humiliated, bad if one were held up to those standards, and that unconscious inarticulate fear comes from those early humiliations concerning toilet training during the anal stage.

However, another way to cope with the potential humiliation that comes from being in the wrong is to go the other direction, to become extremely concerned with being perfect—being clean, neat, orderly—and this is known as the anal compulsive personality style. Indeed, the phrase “that person’s really anal” has become part of everyday speech, and refers to a person who, in psychoanalytic terms, is fixated at the anal stage, who is overly concerned about being the “good boy” or “good girl” (as their parents might have said to them when they used the potty correctly) and not being the “bad boy” or “bad girl” (as their parents might have said to them when they when they had an accident). The psychoanalysts have identified a number of traits that seem to be part of this anal-compulsive personality style, such a stinginess. According to the psychoanalyst, the anal-compulsive individual learned to hang onto their feces until just the right moment, and now, in adulthood, have generalized that attitude to hanging onto to their money and possessions, and so appear stingy or miserly.

As we move into the preschool years, ages three to six, we move into the phallic stage. In this stage, the erogenous zone shifts from the anus to the genitals and the child begins to feel the first stirrings of sexual interest in others, which may lead to a complex family drama—at least within the head of the child—called the oedipus complex. While there is some research support for the oral and anal stages and the fixations associated with those stages, there is no research support for the psychoanalytic theory of what’s going on during the phallic stage. So, while I will describe the theory because it is so famous and so often mentioned in the wider culture, you should take it with a grain of salt. In any case, the theory states that as the child feels those stirrings of desire, the focus of that desire becomes the opposite sex parent, so boys will begin to feel some attraction towards their mother, and girls will feel some attraction towards their father. But there’s a problem: The same sex parents already has an exclusive and intimate relationship with the object of their desire. This makes them mad, even hateful towards the same sex parent. The boys become resentful of their fathers; the girls become resentful of their mothers. But now that they are rivals of their same sex parent, they worry that the same sex parents will do something to get them out of the picture so they also become fearful of the same sex parent. So they trapped in this family crucible of desire, hate, and fear. This stressful state cannot continue. The resolution for the child to identify with the same sex parent. A boy concludes: I can’t have mom right now, but if I grow up to be like dad, I’ll be able to have somebody like mom. A girl concludes: I can’t have dad right now, but if I grow up to be someone like my mom, I can have someone like my dad. So basically they decide if you can’t fight ‘em, join ‘em; that is, I’ll become like the same sex parent and eventually be able to have the type of intimate relationship that they currently enjoy.

Psychoanalysts suggest that if you don’t resolve adequately these oedipal issues, these competitive feelings with your same sex parent, you might become fixated on these issues, and spend your life feeling competitive and playing power games, especially with same sex others and especially when it comes to competing for attention from opposite sex others. You may also feel unresolved feelings of guilt, especially guilt in the context of sexuality, because your first sexual feelings are associated with your parents—that is, they were incestuous feelings.

As we move into the elementary school and pre-puberty years, which psychoanalysts call the latency stage, the libido, and especially the bodily expressions of libido associated with the preceding stages, become repressed. Instead, the libido is re-directed towards mastering social and cognitive skills. The demands society places on children, especially those entering formal schooling as in the United States, focuses their energy on learning these basic skills: reading, writing, arithmetic, social skills, athletic skills, and so on; and the issues that were focal during those first five years, during the oral, anal and phallic stage become repressed and increasingly hidden from memory until, in adulthood, it takes years of psychoanalysis to rediscover the thoughts and feelings and urges that you had during those emotional, conflictual first five years.

The final, genital stage of psychosexual development is triggered by the onset of puberty. As people enter their teenage years the libido once again stirs in a way that cannot be completely repressed and again the focus of the libido, as in the phallic stage, is the genitals, but now the energy is focused outside the family towards relationships with peers. Some of the issues that arise at this stage and that continue throughout life include: how to control libido and express that energy in a mature way through our love and our work. The people that we love and the tasks that we engage in ideally will be opportunities for experiencing intrinsic enjoyment and for making a meaningful contribution, but this depends on our not having unfulfilled oral, anal or phallic needs.

To the extent that we are fixated at those earlier stages, that we have unresolved issues, then we will experience the people we encounter as adults as objects for fulfilling those needs. If we have unresolved oral issues, then others will be viewed only with respect to how they might take care of us or how they might reject us; if we have unresolved anal issues, then we will be too tightly controlled or rule-governed to form flexible and mutual relationships; if we have unresolved phallic issues, we will be overly competitive or guilty. On the other hand, if our earlier experiences allowed us to resolve the issues associated with each stage of psychosexual development in an appropriate way, then as we meet new situations in life, rather than projecting unfilled needs onto them, we can see them more as they really are.”

“We were little boys,
We were little girls”

216. Old Fish in the Sea - September 13, 2008

DC 196 Conscience:

The debate, in my mind, is not about the truth of these ideas but more about the usage.

Do we use them to justify our own agendas or have we learned how to have some fun, be kind, and squeeze some real life out of this old broken down truck.

217. brucelevy - September 13, 2008

213. Man Number Zero

““But even with the help of F D to keep people “in line” more than 7.5% of the entire population of the U S is in prison.”

It’s quite possible that DC is just quoting another statistic that RB is wont to pull out of his ass. When I hung around him he would frequently misquote, misunderstand and just plain make up shit which would ultimately be quoted and re-quoted at dinners, meetings etc. The “fact” being wrong, to a greater or lesser degree, didn’t matter in the least, even when pointed out to him (or DC) because he was “creating states” for us.

218. brucelevy - September 13, 2008

And just throwing shit out there to see what sticks is part and parcel of pathological psychology, both RB’s and DC’s.

219. brucelevy - September 13, 2008

And DC basically lives in a world of straw men and intellectual circle jerks.

220. Daily Cardiac - September 13, 2008

Man # 0

If you eliminate children who are not qualified to serve in prison from the population the percentage is much higher than 7.5. Feel free to do the math.

221. Yesri Baba - September 13, 2008

A story about conscience.

When I was about 19 I had been recieving a newsletter from Self Realization Fellowship and beginning to do a little meditating. I had also been reading a bit of the bible. One day a friend, his girlfriend and I were sitting around shooting the shit and I said that I felt I knew myself better than most people. Suddenly there was a strange, uncomfortable feeling in my solar plexus. I was really taken aback because I really hadn’t done anything ‘wrong’. Since I had been studying some ‘spiritual’ stuff doing some meditating and such I thought I knew myself a little better than most people.

It was just me telling me I was full of shit.

Consciousness, conscience and will are all the same ‘thing’. If you want to look at conscience as being the active aspect, fine. It is you helping you to you. In relation to other people it is knowing they are you.

222. Richard M. - September 13, 2008

Daily Cardiac = Soulless Robot.
Open the pod bay doors HAL…..

223. Man Number Zero - September 13, 2008

In post 220, Daily Cardiac wrote:

“If you eliminate children who are not qualified to serve in prison from the population the percentage is much higher than 7.5. Feel free to do the math.”

The math is not difficult. The prison population is 2.3 million, the US adult population, where by `adult’ we mean `age 18 or above’, is 217.8 million (Source: US Census Bureau, 2004). Do you dispute either of these figures? If so, what is your source?

224. Jomo Piñata - September 13, 2008

My brother, Lacuna Piñata, wrote:

“If you eliminate children who are not qualified to serve in prison from the population the percentage is much higher than 7.5. Feel free to do the math.”

Please excuse him. His teachers told my parents he needed some extra help with homework but they left him to his own devices and look what happened.

225. Jomo Piñata - September 13, 2008

We are all really sad about what happened to him. At least I am. I can’t say that my parents didn’t care, but the truth is they were clueless. And look how he turned out. He stopped growing. None of us can really talk to him. He has “fixed ideas.” Everything bounces off. When he was little I could make him laugh but not any more. Everything is somber and serious now. I never would have thought he would have turned out to be so pompous and dogmatic as an adult. He seems to be doing an impression of a grownup as seen from the perspective of a young child.

226. brucelevy - September 13, 2008
227. brucelevy - September 13, 2008

At least he’s playing a Steinberger.

http://www.steinberger.com/XS15FPACST.html

228. elena - September 13, 2008

211 Veronicapoe, that was great for a goodmorning laugh, thanks!

and Opus 111 your adaptation of Himmler was also much enjoyed, terrifying as it is!

229. fofblogmoderator - September 13, 2008

224 & 225 are newly moderated

230. nigel harris price - September 13, 2008

Having come in from a 2-session teaching of jewellery and silversmithing, I was not expecting Saturday bull-shit! I have given up reading DC’s ‘verbose wanderings in the formatory centre’. My reason? – The Unreal cannot see the Real…..You guys figure out who is who and which is which!…..Nigel.

231. brucelevy - September 13, 2008

225 Jomo Piñata

Wow, there’s an obscure reference (Jomo kenyatta ). Boy, are you dating yourself.

232. You-me-us-they - September 13, 2008

189. a k – September 12, 2008

To M__i A_u

Thanks Bruce to have started questionning Mi… Al __u on GF but apparently your post was deleted so here is mine.

Yes, M_li A__u, I could welcome yo too on GF, however it feels a little bit off.
I read few post from people having had past responsabilities in the FOF apologizing for having harmed people over years.
Considering the involvement you had over the past years in the corruption that was going on in the FOF and your special role in it, it would be nice to hear your explananation on this subject.
It would be nice to hear you share sincerely your experience here.

No news Good news?
Considering the meaning of this blog, it is worth following through…
Yes?

233. Pieternel - September 13, 2008

Dear Tina,

To address what has worked for me.

For months I saw “what was”, the actual situation and could not move ….I just did the necessities, read the blog, as an addicted,
In counseling they call this the grieving process which can take up easily 5 hours a day. Martha beck in finding your North star, says that this is part of the process and it can be beneficial to set some hours a day aside to grief. Her book is very practical.

I studied up on emotionality, grieving and compassionate communication (NVC). Very, very helpful…..Recently for the first time 5 basically unknown people to the fof, in a group in a different town, empathized with me, listened to me, were compassionate, with love streaming form their eyes…….

THEY LISTENED.
And I, just was, accepted, cared for, being what I am…in that moment. So healing.

I have cried so much, had sleepless nights, new realizations….
I went to the dark nights, where the silence is and breathing an EFT laid down some layers. Dark nights of my soul?
People who could listen with empathy were part of my healing and still are.

It is like layers of indoctrination are being taken of and I am not done.

EFT, breathing in parts of my body….has given me a lot of insights and still.

Laughing talking nonsense is very beneficial

Singing,

Laying in the hammock,

And speaking with so many people who are in different stages of recovery of the fof, I am so thankful to all of that..

And new area is to speak out what I feel. take my space in the world and allow myself to express after all these years of running and working like a dog in the fof.

Hope this helps. I will try to call you soon.

234. Another Name - September 13, 2008

Dear Paul,

Thanks Paul for being here. I always enjoyed you, although you did not seem very interested in interaction with people? My subject interpretation….

Yes, we are all nuts? You too…..?

Where I come from, there is a saying: “Most mental health patients are not in the the institute, they are walking outside the institute.”

Recognizable?

Hope to hear from you

235. Ellen - September 13, 2008

# 196, Daily Cardiac, thank you for attempting to broach the word that is spoken so often here. Conscience. I appreciate it but perceive your conscience is in your head, not your heart. See for yourself, for example, just look at the length of your post.

In contrast here is a song called “Zombie” recorded by the Cranberries in Dublin in 1994. It was written, in memory of two young boys, who were killed by an IRA bombing in North-West England in March 1993. Its chilling to hear the outrage in their voices.

“The Troubles” as they were called in Northern Ireland were essentially religious differences of two sides who both thought their borders were more important their human connectedness. But a spirituality, any spirituality, even that of the Fellowship’s Self Remembering, which does not bring you to a real, concrete face to face experience of your connectedness to all of creation is just – in your head.

I’ve copied the lyrics here in case your slow O.H. internet connection doesn’t let YouTube do its stuff.

Another head hangs lowly
Child is slowly taken
And the violence causes silence
Who are we mistaken?
But you see, it’s not me
It’s not my family
In your head, in your head
They are fightin’!
With their tanks, and their bombs
And their bombs, and their guns
In your head, in your head
They are cryin!

In your head! In your head!
Zombie! Zombie! Zombie,hey,hey,hey!
What’s in your head, in your head?
Zombie! Zombie! Zombie hey, hey, hey, etc…

Another mother’s breaking
Heart is taken over.
When the violence causes silence
We must be mistaken.
It’s the same old theme
Since 1916!
In your head, in your head
They’re still fightin’!
With their tanks, and their bombs
And their bombs, and their guns
In your head, in your head!
They are dyin’!

In your head! In your head!
Zombie! Zombie! Zombie,hey, hey,hey
What’s in your head, in your head?
Zombie! Zombie! Zombie hey, hey, hey, etc…

236. Across the River - September 13, 2008

Old Fish, elena, veronicapoe, Ames, Ellen, lauralupa, RVM and others,

I appreciate those who still find the patience to answer DC’s posts.

“It’s a dirty job but someone has to do it.”

237. More history needed? - September 13, 2008

This is part of a recent message from Robert Burton.

Robert sees the following as a sign of how alive his “group” is.

Judge for yourself. I am wondering if he is getting tired and wants to leave the group himself. Hanging out in Mexico and Egypt?

Or that this is his way of explaining his excess desire for sex and money? Who knows the answer can give it.

Time will tell us.

From The Theory of Conscious Harmony
Letter of Rodney Collin, November 25, 1930

“All that Ouspensky said and did at that time seemed to me to have exactly this purpose and effect – to sort out the people who could respond to the miraculous from those who could not, and also to sort out in these people themselves the small part which could respond from the large part which was unable to do so.

It was very clear that if a man in a higher state of consciousness acts directly from the perceptions of that state, without bothering to consider the fashions and weaknesses of ordinary life, he will seem mad to men in ordinary life.

Evidently great teachers have to soften their truth to the understanding of the hearers, to be ‘gentle’ with them – but for a short time their work may exactly consist in not compromising with ordinary life at all. This will be the real test of those who have studied with them, and will show whether they have really understood, or have heard only words.

…And evidently there comes a time when a real teacher has to create conditions which are unbearable for the old personality of those about him. He does this by acting, without compromise from his higher understanding without any concessions to the ways of the world. This is literally unbearable to what is artificial in his followers – either they must go away or something must die in them.”

238. Another Name - September 13, 2008

From Ton

. But sometimes this same type of oral dependency can arise from being overindulged. In this case an infant, the moment it showed the slightest distress, was immediately coddled and nursed; consequently, it feels itself to be a fragile being incapable of tolerating frustration and being independent.
But this highlights one of the complaints people have about the psychoanalytic approach: there are not clear predictions about how a particular childhood experiences lead to particular adult outcomes; since, for example, a very withholding parent or a very nurturing parent might result in the same oral dependent personality style in adulthood.

Are you sure “overindulgent” leading to oral frustration?
I remember seeing mothers in Africa, feeding their children every moment they would cry, cuddle them carry them around. Many tribes have done this. The breast feeding La Leche Leque and other organizations have promoted this feeding and cuddling when needed. I have seen many women following this attitude in different cultures and have not seen a relation between being fed and cuddled when the first sign of distress came about and oral frustration? And I have seen many baby’s/ children and parents in my life who breast fed????

Though another question arises out of this: How to explain Robert’s sexual needs, which seems insatiable and completely directed to his own satisfaction, without taking the others need in consideration. He seems to have all fixations?
Oral, anal, phallic and still jealous at …mothers and fathers and other people?

Can you explain this more and if I missed a post as I did not read all of them forgive me.

239. Rear View Mirror - September 13, 2008

More history needed? 236

quoting from Burton, who is quoting from Collin: “It was very clear that if a man in a higher state of consciousness acts directly from the perceptions of that state, without bothering to consider the fashions and weaknesses of ordinary life, he will seem mad to men in ordinary life.”

Yes, Burton, and maybe Hitler was a great man after all. Maybe Manson is, too.

Dear FOF friends: Think.

Think with your own mind. At some point you need to see with your own eyes, and hear with your own ears. The above words lead to nothing but insanity. Time to heal from this nonsense.

240. lauralupa - September 13, 2008

More history needed and somebody’s recent posts relating Robert’s messages sound pretty ominuos and telling to me regarding the direction Burton’s cult is heading in…

obey and don’t question, now that’s a rather Nazi attitude in my book

BTW, I have decided not to waste another drop of virtual ink responding to Lacuna Pinata’s foolishacreings until C influence gives me a very strong indication that they want me to. At present they are indicating that recovering Lacuna’s conscience and soul from the deep well in which they lay buried is not the highest aim for this Humble Servant of Divine Will. In fact, C influence told me the other night (they adviced me through a licence plate saying DC MOOLA) that the least I should do is ask him for monetary compensation for my relentless efforts in shaking his formatory mind into priceless moments of Divine Presence. Oh well, a Teacher’s got to do what a Teacher’s got to do. So Pinata, unless you give me some of the candy hidden in that big paper maché belly of yours, your road towards awakening stops right here and now. I am warning you, you are on the verge of LOSING THE WAY.

DEAR STUDENT, OBEY INFLUENCE C’S WISHES:

I WANT CANDY

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cLJ1vuUWprA

241. arthur - September 13, 2008

ton ( 215),

Anal stage is my “history”. Whatever the situation, elementary school, junior high school, armed services, marriage, work enviroments or living life. The anal will appear sooner or later.
A lot of people thought I was a good “street fighter” being so small of built. I would tell them it’s not my body. It’s the anger that makes me two or three times stronger. It seems that I came out of the womb angry. My former father-in-law told my ex-wife that I was a rebel. My family said I had a hugh chip on my shoulders.

The reason I write this is because this morning I had a blow-out with a big biker guy about an Obama sign on my house.
I got in his face and he turn and said, “Since you got in my face, I’ll get in yours”. And, so on and so forth.

I’m a sick old man and still at it. The anal psychology never stops.

I was so hyped up I carried a heavy computer monitor from room to the other without running out of breath. The “emotions” carried me along. “No WILL to stop in mid-stream.

A friend 100% PTSD disabled came over and we started discussing Anger, Rebellion, Screw You attitudes and things like that. He suggested the next time I go to the VA clinic to ask for anger managment therapy.

Why? I was in the fellowship of friends they taught me to “turn the other cheek”?

I have never been a bully. But, fireworks happens when I get tired of being shouted at, threatened, or things of that nature.

And, to think the it started in the bathroom is amazing. I guess the fourth way was right. False personality lasts until you take your last breath then it dies too.

A pirate for life.

242. elena - September 13, 2008

There was a recent post by someone asking about the verification of influence C that I was unable to track down but would like to make it the subject of this post. The question is important because more goes in what we don’t say than in what we can easily express.

The more I look at us people, the more we look like trees, shrubs and weeds. The fear of not growing up that I had as a child has been replaced by the shock that everything grows no matter how ill fated it might be. Robert was almost human in his conception of the Gods. Friends of his that would sit with us at dinner and knock over the glass of wine; posses members and make them give out their statements, visit him during the night and confide the next great prediction for the whole of humanity. Almost human because we too had the right to know that they were working with us when we were deep in friction so that Robert could avoid taking the call and never enough on the side of us that made us worthy of our own presence. There was nothing wrong with the Gods or the System, the problem was that Robert used them against us; the System, to disarm the frail personality we arrived with and the Gods, to give himself absolute power. He was, unfortunately, extremely successful.

The way each one of us establishes his or her connection with the different worlds or realms within and without our selves is particular to each and they are all equally sacred. I’d like to share the way those connections were experienced by me in the knowledge that they are only the way I experienced them and not the way they should be experienced by anybody else. Each life has its own way of flowering and no one can flower for anybody else. Words of course, are not the experience. As Rumi said: they are like an astrolabe pointing at the sky.

One’s self is like a long chord, a path along the different worlds.
One’s self, or the will to be.
All paths in the physical world are metaphors of the will.
All of the physical world is a metaphor of the spiritual worlds.
When you don’t know this the physical world is dense, when you know it, the physical world is The World, the pinnacle of all worlds. Not because it is not the densest world but because it’s density is what is worth adventuring into. There are no obstacles to one’s self but no one knows it until he or she has the will to overcome them.

Consciousness, like Heaven, is neither a knowing or a being but a knowing and a being.
One’s self is only the path from me to you, and you are only the path from me to myself in an eternal dialogue between the point in the center of the circle and the circumference.
All geometry is the poetry of laws. All geography is the law of poetry. And love is the only law.

This week I began to die. With you, because you’re ready to live with me and with you, my other daughter, because you’re ready to live without me. No one can fight for ever and surrendering is as beautiful as declaring war. There is a time for Time. No one can appropriate himself or herself with anyone else’s struggle. Surrendering with love to not hurt those you love no matter how wildly you disagree with them, means letting it be and the world recovers its freedom. So do I… More humble, but also more human.

Language too is a metaphor of reality. Each line that makes a letter is a string intended to connect us, threads to weave into each other’s soul, fibers to help us heal with… love.

But the question was about influence C or the Gods, I’m sorry I’ve deviated. Being is the chord between the different realms of the Universe. You can walk down yourself into the world in which everything is separate and separately struggling for separateness or you can walk up your self towards a world in which unity is a reality. When you walk down everyone is trying to serve only him self, when you walk up, everyone is serving you or, when you walk down you are trying to avoid everyone and when you walk up you are connected with everyone.

Each world is connected to each other through you. Worlds 1, 3, 6, 12, 48, 96 and so on, each have their own taste just like the realm of the instincts, emotions, thoughts and movements have their own taste and so does sexuality. Each realm is both itself and an aspect of you. Knowledge has to say it like that. Being has to know it like that. And it is the way I connect to each realm that can actualize the consciousness of my connection.

I’ve got to go. Thanks for the opportunity to share these things. My young daughter is here for my birthday, hooray!

243. lauralupa - September 13, 2008

for all my aquatic friends swimming and floating in this river’s powerful currents, may your journey to the open sea be joyful and bountiful
never stop dreaming the future

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ3ybBCX3S8

244. brucelevy - September 13, 2008

Happy birthday Elena.

245. Jomo Piñata - September 13, 2008

We are still pretty concerned about my brother Lacuna Piñata. We have backed off into “watchful waiting.” We have been in that pattern for years. He doesn’t call us, you know, ever. We ring him up from time to time. Usually we talk a little about the weather, but never about things that matter. Anytime we try to talk about anything that matters he changes the subject. He thinks he has fooled us. Once I heard him tell someone, “life people don’t realize there is a subject.” I guess I would call the way he acts towards us “cordial but distant.” He likes to pretend we’re not his family. Kind of like a boy of seventeen who’s embarrassed to be seen with his parents. But it seems like he’s forgotten he’s pretending.

Somebody else told us not to be too concerned, he’s just acting the way he’s been told he has to act. They said it’s kind of like “Follow the Leader” and “Dungeons and Dragons” writ big. If you get told to go to Russia, you just go. São Paulo, you go. Oakville, Ontario. Los Angeles. Someone told me there used to be hundreds of these cult members in Los Angeles but the scene just fell apart there and in the end there were only two and a $5000/month rent obligation.

I wish Lacuna would show a glimmer of his old self. I have a feeling that somewhere inside there he’s still the same Piñata who used to make funny faces at me, cried when the boys at school made fun of his ears and who first showed me the difference between shake and good sinsemilla. Lacuna, I miss you.

Love,
Jomo

246. dragon - September 13, 2008

Another wonderful year with your friends here…………………………….
Stay with them…………………

This is the fragrance of a Birthday-Rose for you Elena.

247. brucelevy - September 13, 2008

DC

You need to call Jomo.

248. will coyote - September 13, 2008

I am not sure if is right going on writing in this wave of the blog. I feel like many people are playing a Greek tragedy hoping in a cathartic effect. So may be is better just stay out and to witness.
I feel D C is looking a way out and it is not in the meaning of the logic witten words that this is happening.
However the Greek chorus is chanting that :
C C Conscience is less buffers: yes it is possible that you feel all wrong , all the best high ideals just no real, but just masks and not having enought will to change. But you have not to change. To cry, to feel grief. Yes. May be to live for change bad things, but that after. Before to see; after to die. And may be resurrection, new life .

249. Old Fish in the Sea - September 13, 2008

241 LauraLupa

“for all my aquatic friends swimming and floating in this river’s powerful currents”

LETS GO TO THE RIVER

I am going to be at the old bridge at South Yuba Park off 49 near Nevada City from 2:00-2:15 PM tomorrow. From there I plan to make a short hike to a place I know, go for a swim and chat. No need to confirm – come if you like.

250. Old Fish in the Sea - September 13, 2008

Perhaps it was not clear at 247. All are invited.

251. elena - September 14, 2008

Thanks Bruce, it is on the fifteenth. And Dragon, it smells better than all the roses of the Galleria and they were not bad at all!

Have a great weekend Arthur and all, so good you’re here!

252. PaulShabram - September 14, 2008

196 D.C.
“Conscience can be thought of in any number of ways; a “higher faculty” of the mind, an “organ” of perception, an instrument by which we recognize truth. In the bible it says “Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” I believe this statement alludes to conscience in man.”

Most bizarre of you to quote Satan in Genesis 3:5 tempting Eve to bite the apple. Did you know you were doing that?

253. PaulShabram - September 14, 2008

Old Fish 180

I put the question of verification to Daily Cardiac when he first appeared. He/she did answer. You could have substituted “God” or “Jesus” in his/her answer. Her/his answer of verification was a description of a pure faith experience. You almost felt like D.C. was going to fall down and speak in tongues.

I think this is a fundamental subject that gets to the heart of the conflict of “Leave or Stay”.

A closer look at Ouspensky writings shows a constant current of asking the reader to simply believe. It is so ubiquitous and relentless that the mind numbs. Reading Ouspensky with the same skeptical eye as reading Burton’s quotes has been a humbling and enlightening experience for me.

254. nigel harris price - September 14, 2008

250 PaulShabram

Do you actually think DC cares where he digs up his rubbish for his posts?…..Nigel.

255. Old Fish in the Sea - September 14, 2008

PaulShabram 251-

It is perhaps a kind of cosmic joke that many of us that were too skeptical to believe in normal religion found ourselves gradually becoming even more religious than most Christians without realizing it.

But I don’t believe in cosmic jokes do you?

As Colman Barker read tonight from Rumi, “Out beyond all the right doing and wrong doing there lies a field – I’ll meet you there”

And that field is the Yuba Rver at South Yuba Park off of 49. See y’all at 2.

256. elena - September 14, 2008

Being is a chord that connects all worlds.
When a human being is, the whole Universe becomes.
Pride is in itself an Ocean, an “ALL”, permeating the being of all beings.
The pride to belong to this Universe, to these Uni-verses.
The word itself talks of its UNI-ty no matter how many verses one might put to-get-her, to-get-there.
The pride of being.

And the humility. When a human being steps beyond himself or herself into the Ocean of beings, he or she knows that she or he is the last one in the hierarchy. Even being the last one, there is infinite pride. There are no first or last ones in the unity of the circle but one is both first and last and is filled with pride and humility like two sides of a coin.

All beings are in the hierarchy. There is really only one being. No us but I, but us as One.

Life is called life because every time we connect with each other we actualize our oneness. We actualize the Unity of the Universe. Life is the birth giving miracle of unity.

To speak, to touch, to eat,
to kiss, to look, to see,
to listen, to hear, to hold hands,
to share, no matter how little there is,
to trust,
to trust, to bear, to help,
to affirm and confirm,
to give and forgive,
to serve, not one’s humility but one’s pride. In this upside down and backwards world we ask of people to serve their humility to humiliate them but in the world we come from and are on our way back to, pride is served without anyone asking for it. There is an infinite fountain of pride and we are its source. Each one of us is its infinite source.

Pride of being is the color we see on flowers. Flowers have not yet lost the pride of being, nor has the light and water of the rainbow. There is as much pride in the rainbow as in a genuine smile.

Be loved and beloved.

I am sorry to all if I’ve been harsh. I offer you this pride, that you may forgive me.

257. fofblogmoderator - September 14, 2008

233 is newly moderated

258. nigel harris price - September 14, 2008

“We have seen or heard of many extraordinary young men who never ripened, or whose performance in actual life was not extraordinary. When we see their air and mien, when we hear them speak of society, of books, of religion, we admire their superiority, they seem to throw contempt on the whole state of the world; theirs is the tone of a youthful giant, who is sent to work revolutions. But they enter an active profession, and the forming Colossus shrinks to the common size of man. The magic they used was the ideal tendencies, which always makes the Actual ridiculous; but the tough world had its revenge the moment they put their horses of the sun to plough its furrow. They found no example and no companion, and their heart fainted. What then? The lesson they gave in their first aspirations is yet true; and a better valour and a purer truth SHALL ONE DAY EXECUTE THEIR WILL, AND PUT THE WORLD TO SHAME.”

(Ralph Waldo Emerson – ‘Essays’)

259. lauralupa - September 14, 2008

Hi Tina,
a lot of helpful things have already been said. I very much enjoyed Ames’ post and Pieternel’s account of her recent experiences at 233. IMO the aspect of “speak out what I feel. take my space in the world and allow myself to express” is one of the most healing and empowering, and I am still working on it after many years.

I started developing the art of being invisible many years before the FoF, so it’s a big issue in my life, and the blog has been a very good venue to address this crippling attitude. By not allowing ourselves to take a healthy instinctive space and to express our feelings and opinions we eventually become very frustrated, compressed and constipated. If you are feeling this way, whatever brings a feeling of expansion, freedom and childish joy to your day is beneficial. Singing, dancing, painting, talking with friends, being in nature, travelling, giving yourself treats you have always desired… these are just a few things that come to mind, and I think rediscovering whatever used to make you happy when you were young and innocent (not judgemental towards yourself) is a good way to start.

One of my most important discoveries was and still is that the body can be an endless source of wisdom, energy and joy. We just have to learn to attend to it and listen to its voice. In the FoF we were taught to devalue and ignore our instinctive, sensual, physical nature, and it will probably take some effort to mend this great disconnect. For me this kind of work was a new spiritual beginning. Just as an example, I want to go on record with my verifications of chakras and kundalini. Didn’t use to believe in them, and thought they were just one of those weird eastern religion-new age thingies (yes, I too was one of those deeply uncurious beings for a while).

But my body told me differently, and the mind had to bow to its superior expertise. Work on chakras can actually be a very effective way to address one’s deepest issues and release untapped potential. But it is just one of many paths that open up when one releases the fearful conditioned mind’s iron grip and starts exploring with more intuitive, experience-based ways of knowing. I feel that for women especially, it’s very important to reclaim one’s peculiar feminine way of connecting with the sacred.
I have already recommended on this blog the classic book “Women who run with the wolves” because it was very helful to me, but these days there’s a wealth of materials to choose from if you want to explore this area.
All the best to you and remember, take good care of yourself!

260. Ellen - September 14, 2008

#237 More History Needed

That passage from Rodney Collin was sent to me about a year ago by my friends the RTs. It was amazing even then to read it and to know that such a passage only referred to a real teacher, and so it could not be used to justify Robert Burton’s actions.

If you are a current student and you read that passage and you feel a part of yourself relax in self justification, are you ready to ask yourself who it is in you that has just relaxed?

And to go tit for tat, since Daily Cardiac assures me that Nisargadatta’s teaching was the subject of a recent Galleria meeting, here is what N. has to say on the subject of real and false teachers:

N. …The self-styled Gurus talk of ripeness and effort, of merits and achievements, of destiny and grace; all these are mere mental formations, projections of an addicted mind. Instead of helping, they
obstruct.

Q: How can I make out whom to follow and whom to mistrust?

N: Mistrust all, until you are convinced. The true Guru will never humiliate you, nor will he estrange you from yourself. He will constantly bring you back to the fact of your inherent perfection and encourage you to seek within. He knows you need nothing, not even him, and is never tired of reminding you. But the self appointed Guru
is more concerned with himself than with his disciples.

261. nigel harris price - September 14, 2008

Brilliant last two posts…..lauralupa and Ellen. Thanks…..Nigel.

262. ton - September 14, 2008

thanks to laura 258 for connecting head, heart, body, soul…

this one’s for you tina, don’t forget to dance:

life’s a dance….

263. nigel harris price - September 14, 2008

Just listening to Sandy Thoms, a new Scots singer.
The track?…..”Your heart is just a beat-box for the song of your life”……………..Nigel.

(P.S. Hope we can keep up this non-argumentative,
harmonising phase of the blog for a little time yet)

264. dragon - September 14, 2008

258. + 259. a pleasure for all of us

Another healing book:

“The dancing grandmothers” by Clarissa P.E.

And her words for our souls (be gentle with your most valuable part)

Dear brave soul…………

Welcome………….

Come in, come in………………

–> also to this blog,

Thank you Sheik for this project

265. dragon - September 14, 2008

233. 13.09.08 Dear Pieternel,

In the FoF there are people often touched by “Synchronicity”.

I guess, you are now a “Serendipper”.

Serendipity will guide you……………………

266. Yesri Baba - September 14, 2008

261 Ton

Good one ton, you da man.

267. Daily Cardiac - September 15, 2008

To Man Number Zero:

“A record 7 million people — one in every 32 U.S. adults — were behind bars, on probation or on parole by the end of last year, a Justice Department report released yesterday shows.

Of those, 2.2 million were in prison or jail, an increase of 2.7 percent over the previous year, according to the report. More than 4.1 million people were on probation and 784,208 were on parole at the end of 2005.”

If you read the posting on Conscience attentively you would have noticed that the percent of those in prison was only one of several categories (and of all categories, the smallest by far) making the point that man in general is not able to follow conscience. The percent I quoted was incorrect, as I see from your good detective work, and more than the official figures. If in your mind or anyone else’s that misinformation changes the point being made, so be it.
I don’t think it does.

268. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

266. Daily Cardiac

Is the blog your life now? Is it your job? Is it your surrogate for a group people who will listen to your words, or even want to listen to you? Is the blog where you dump your shit (it’s been that for some of us occasionally, although it seems that’s all you do here). Is it a FOF-given or self-given task to protect the FOF. Do you have nothing better to do with your time after years evolving in the FOF? Do you think that someone who actually “does the work” could actually find a valid reason for your presence here? Just curious. Of course I don’t expect an answer, even if you give one.

269. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

266. Daily Cardiac

And you even delving into conscience at all is a sad joke. You pull words out of your ass to describe it yet you clearly don’t have a clue. They are merely words for you, and since the “intellect” is where you live (and I’m sure self glorify and place most of your self worth) you think your intellectual concepts are real, and are your “being”. When you go as far as you can with “words”, theories and constructs you’ll eventually find yourself an empty, lonely, shallow shell of a “Man”. I think that’s your only chance.

270. nigel harris price - September 15, 2008

267/268 brucelevy

You deal with him, Bruce…..I’ve had enough of him…..Nigel

271. Jomo Piñata - September 15, 2008

“A record 7 million people — one in every 32 U.S. adults — were behind bars, on probation or on parole by the end of last year, a Justice Department report released yesterday shows.

Of those, 2.2 million were in prison or jail, an increase of 2.7 percent over the previous year, according to the report. More than 4.1 million people were on probation and 784,208 were on parole at the end of 2005.”

If you read the posting on Conscience attentively you would have noticed that the percent of those in prison was only one of several categories (and of all categories, the smallest by far) making the point that man in general is not able to follow conscience. The percent I quoted was incorrect, as I see from your good detective work, and more than the official figures. If in your mind or anyone else’s that misinformation changes the point being made, so be it.
I don’t think it does.

Lacuna Piñata! Brother how are you doing! (See, he ignores me. It’s not that he’s mean. It’s that he’s afraid. Paradox is, he’s not afraid of me, he’s afraid of HIMSELF. All that dogma is building a Berlin Wall right down the middle of HIMSELF. It’s late 1989, man. That wall gotta come down!)

The proposition you set forth is basically that ordinary people can’t obey the dictates of their conscience and so have to adopt a mechanical proxy, Foppish Dandyism. I’m not sure why you think statistics about the number of people in prison in the US supports that proposition. You have no breakdown about which laws they were determined to have violated. How many of them are in jail for violating drug prohibition laws? You yourself have violated drug prohibition laws. Did your conscience tell you you shouldn’t? Or was that just Foppish Dandyism?

By the way what is this “man,” man? “[M]an in general is not able to follow conscience.” Do you sort out males and females? Maybe it is males that matter to you and females don’t. Do females’ moral choices differ from males’?
Lawrence Kohlberg has looked at this. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development ).

So has Carol Gilligan. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_a_Different_Voice ; http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/gilligan2.html )

You write as if you started with the conclusion that most people can’t follow conscience, and then picked facts that supported that conclusion. That’s not reasoning, my brother. That’s dogma. Conclude first, then argue: that’s dogma. Examine evidence first, apply critical thinking: that’s reasoning. If old Robot Button determines your conclusions, he controls your mind.

272. Man Number Zero - September 15, 2008

In post 266, Daily Cardiac wrote:

“If you read the posting on Conscience attentively you would have noticed that the percent of those in prison was only one of several categories (and of all categories, the smallest by far) making the point that man in general is not able to follow conscience. The percent I quoted was incorrect, as I see from your good detective work, and more than the official figures. If in your mind or anyone else’s that misinformation changes the point being made, so be it. I don’t think it does.”

I applaud your honesty in owning up to your error. But why would you expect me, or anyone else, to read your postings attentively when you make errors of this size? You’re almost an order of magnitude off. It doesn’t take detective work to spot this, just common sense — if the number were as high as you claimed, almost all of us would know several people in jail. Who gave you this figure, and why did you believe them?

Even if your overestimate had been correct, it would not establish your point. Most US prisoners are victims of the War against Drugs. Opposing the War on Drugs is not a failure of conscience — quite the reverse.

273. whalerider - September 15, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
“An ordinary man, content with a second state existence and in most cases thinking that is the only existence, cannot recognize an enlightened man, who has made the third state his reality. There is no point of reference other than what the ordinary man has read or heard about higher consciousness.

Most people would not see anything of value in enlightened men if they encountered them because they consider themselves already in possession of a complete and final state of consciousness; they believe they already possess the only thing an enlightened being could help them acquire.”

>>>>>>><<<<<<<

So according to you the enlightened PERSON has made the third state HIS or HER reality and that makes them enlightened…

But then you go on to say that the ordinary PERSON would not see anything of value because they consider themselves already in possession of the “complete and final state of consciousness”, the “THING” that the enlightened being could help them acquire.”

(Surely you have more grasp of your ultimate goal than to describe it as a ‘thing’…I am unimpressed by your intellect.)

Your thinking (or lack of thinking as the case may be) illustrates to me how asleep you really are to your predicament.

First of all, the complete and final state of consciousness is not the third state, AKA “self-remembering” but the fourth state of consciousness, AKA “objective consciousness”. And to experience the fourth state of consciousness for any prolonged amount of time, one must have a functioning conscience. Attempting to focus one’s awareness only in the present without any concern for the past or the future damages the development of conscience.

BTW, one hallmark of virtuosity within the fourth state of consciousness is the ability to be constantly aware of the “long body’ of one’s life, coupled with a keen awareness of the legacy one leaves behind…otherwise known as “results” of one’s actions. Our actions do have consequences.

Unfortunately for you and so many others mired in the FOF web of deceit, the cult leader you have been following suffers from narcissist personality disorder, has ceased his development beyond the point of “self-remembering” and lacks a conscience.

In order to feed the delusions of grandeur that your cult leader possesses, the whole indoctrination of the FOF has evolved to keep followers such as you operating below the level of self-hood and individuation in order to elevate him. Burton goes about his day quoting others and pleasing himself at the expense of his followers, does he not?

In fact we all do possess what a truly enlightened being helps us to value: spiritual independence, freedom, the ability to be our own guru. That valuation is what we forget to remember. This seems lost on you. Why, I wonder?

Because the non-enlightened cult leader keeps his followers in psychological bondage in order to pay his salary.

This is also why I suspect you choose not to answer my question: What makes you think the FOF is not a cult?

The answer: obviously the cult pays your salary, too. After so many years, you are now stuck perpetually covering your ass, giving Burton license to do what ever he damn well pleases, turning the FOF into a rape factory…so you keep your job.

Honestly, correct me if I am wrong, are you or are you not on the FOF payroll?

274. lauralupa - September 15, 2008

I certainly haven’t been shopping for any new shoes
-And-
I certainly haven’t been spreading myself around
I still only travel by foot and by foot, it’s a slow climb,
But I’m good at being uncomfortable, so
I can’t stop changing all the time

I notice that my opponent is always on the go
-And-
Won’t go slow, so’s not to focus, and I notice
He’ll hitch a ride with any guide, as long as
They go fast from whence he came
– But he’s no good at being uncomfortable, so
He can’t stop staying exactly the same

If there was a better way to go then it would find me
I can’t help it, the road just rolls out behind me
Be kind to me, or treat me mean
I’ll make the most of it, I’m an extraordinary machine

I seem to you to seek a new disaster every day
You deem me due to clean my view and be at peace and lay
I mean to prove I mean to move in my own way, and say,
I’ve been getting along for long before you came into the play

I am the baby of the family, it happens, so
– Everybody cares and wears the sheeps’ clothes
While they chaperone
Curious, you looking down your nose at me, while you appease
– Courteous, to try and help – but let me set your
Mind at ease

If there was a better way to go then it would find me
I can’t help it, the road just rolls out behind me
Be kind to me, or treat me mean
I’ll make the most of it, I’m an extraordinary machine

-Do I so worry you, you need to hurry to my side?
-It’s very kind
But it’s to no avail; I don’t want the bail
I promise you, everything will be just fine

If there was a better way to go then it would find me
I can’t help it, the road just rolls out behind me
Be kind to me, or treat me mean
I’ll make the most of it, I’m an extraordinary machine

Happy birthday, Elena!

275. fofblogmoderator - September 15, 2008

239 & 271 are newly moderated

276. Ellen - September 15, 2008

#271, Whale Rider

Nice post. I think it is important to point out, as you did, the formatory and relative understanding that penned Daily Cardiac’s treatise on conscience. It was not written from the perspective of Self Realization but rather of Self Remembering, which is the fundamental problem of the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Burton’s guidance of it: both virtue and Achilles heel. Fifty percent. Half way. Taking the goal post for the goal. However you want to say it.

DC’s bottom line is that the fundamental nature of the lower self is evil, is criminal, and that the unevolved man’s basic qualities are imagination, identification, negative emotions, lying etc… Thus his need to quote stats on criminality. And relative to Self Remembering, but Self Rememberinf only, it is possible to see how he has come up with such a conclusion.

But you have to wonder about the childhood of such a person. Did it contain a lot of finger shaking and taboos? A lot of heavy duty religious programming? Why did he choose to believe mankind as fundamentally bad? Why does he need to continue to view his own nature as fundamentally bad? Has he just not gone deep enough?

For guidance from a truly realized master would contain much more acceptance, love, and sublime understanding than he or his Teacher are currenly capable of. One can only hope for other current members to slowly figure it out one by one and leave, or if they choose to stay, for whatever reason, then slowly and subtly change the fabric of concensus among the general membership. (Until they, too, are asked to leave…)

******************************************************************
BTW: I think DC was on the payroll for a long time, but there have been many cuts recently due to decreasing revenues. I heard that he was one, though he may have found a way to renegotiate a “partial salary” deal.

In general, there are a few roles that keep Robert’s ball rolling.
A very important one is “Male Member”. WR, you personally know about that and the nature of it’s contribution.
Another is “Wallet Wench”. Ladies who seek Robert’s positive recognition can, do and have made great inroads through money.
Another one is “Power Provider”, which is unisex and universal. Lower degrees of it include every member, simply through their donations and participation, though advanced levels can render close contact with the Big Kahuna.

Nevertheless, Daily Cardiac is a Power Provider, par excellence. And the ego which he seeks to escape is fully entrenched.

277. arthur - September 15, 2008

Happy Birthday to you,
Happy birthday dear ELENA,
Happy Birthday!!!

A pirate for life

278. nigel harris price - September 15, 2008

Hi lauralupa, was it you who recommended Ayurveda and Cranio-Sacral Therapy? I actually unearthed a little alternative medicine brochure and on its back cover was a ‘blurb’ from The Ayurveda Centre in Winchester, Hampshire. Hampshire is only two counties away here in the UK and, funnily enough, I went to high school in Winchester. Interesting how one’s WHOLE LIFE seems to have been connected in some VAST WAY! I doubt the FOFfers, with their Linear Decellerator (i.e. follow-follow-death-then what?) attitude, cannot see things that way…..Nigel.

279. aline - September 15, 2008

Happy birthday Elena.
Half of a century! isn’t that something?

280. nigel harris price - September 15, 2008

And from me, Nigel, Happy Birthday (and keep on being born!)

281. nigel harris price - September 15, 2008

Hi lauralupa

Just found a little article in that booklet on
Natural Therapies, entitled ‘A Culture of Honouring’…..

“We need communities in which the mature masculine
(who adores the world) and the mature feminine
(who is in resonance with the sacredness and mystery
of our being alive) can fill our babies with a different
psychic diet. We don’t need to leave home. We don’t
need to ‘start a community’. But we do need to feed
our babies differently.”

282. nigel harris price - September 15, 2008

Oops, sorry fofblogmoderator, can you get rid of the first one of the above – I was trying to correct a spelling mistake and the computer went ‘ba-doing’ (as machines do!)…..Nigel.

283. aline - September 15, 2008

I find quite strange that everyone is so focused to answer to the posts of DC and don’t get tired of it, and that very few have mentioned the emergence of M.. I A.. U on the GF.

See post # 189 AK
”To M__i A_u
Thanks Bruce to have started questionning Mi … Al __u on GF but apparently your post was deleted so here is mine.
Yes, Mali A__u, I could welcome yo too on GF, however it feels a little bit off.
I read few post from people having had responsibilities in the past FOF apologizing for having harmed people over years.
Considering the involvement you had over the past years in the corruption that was going on in the FOF and your special role in it, it would be nice to hear your explananation on this subject.
It would be nice to hear you sincerely share your experience here. “

There are 2 alternatives:

Either what I have heard about the corruption in the FOF is wrong: there were never exchanges of vouchers against sex with students, M..I was never involved in this story and in this case it could justify that some are welcoming him on the GF. Why in this case, did RB sanctionned D…n and M…i on this occasion?

Or what has been said about it by many different sources, is true and if so, it seems that some have very short memory.
If M…I is really honest and if he wants to have a minimum of credibility and credit regarding others, he must give his own explanations regarding this aspect of corruption in the FOF.

Maybe I do not have all the elements to judge the whole situation. If so, I hope someone will give them to me.
the question is not to throw the stone to anyone, but shouldn’t we remember what we are speaking about here?

284. nigel harris price - September 15, 2008

284 aline

I think your points are pertinent. I, for one, think that DC and RC have both been planted on the blogsite for the sole purpose of seeing what formatory arguments could be thrown around from all quarters. I seem to remember Pavel saying that he started the site with the aim of exposing, to whatever depths necessary, the deceptions and illegalities of the FOF and REB and his ‘henchfolk’. Was his subtitle to the site not ‘Free Speech is a Dirty Business’. I think all true ‘dismantlers’ of the FOF should ‘strike while the iron is hot’ and get their petition stories to Ford Greene in the HUB LAW OFFICES in San Anselmo (I am sure anyone could look up the correct street address and zip code) and perhaps, if possible, include a little financial offering for his continuing work so that we can get REB and Co. in court and settle the Cult Problem for not just our in-the-past-deceived selves but the whole of the American Justice system Nigel.

285. waskathleenw - September 15, 2008

Tina, 143

I left more than two decades before the blog, and my suggestions come from a time when there were far fewer resources, but maybe they will be of some value.

One of the more valuable things I did was to develop friendships with people outside the FoF. It took awhile to get over the feeling that it “just wasn’t the same” with those people, but that’s the whole point. It made a huge difference.

I waited about a year then took a several week class with a non-Fourth Way-related facilitator. It culminated with a weekend at a retreat center, immersed in something completely different. I didn’t join a group or adopt a new path — I just exposed myself to a very different spiritual perspective. It let in a lot of air, even though it was just a stepping stone.

Time is a huge factor. You may go through periods of believing that the process is complete, then find another layer of it. This is normal, and may happen several times. It can take a long time to unravel this snarl of yarn.

Do lots of things you weren’t allowed to do in the FoF. It’s fun.

Cut yourself lots of slack!!

286. dragon - September 15, 2008

285. nigel harris price

You put it in a nutshell!

Is there somebody, who would like to tell something to somebody?

No games!
Just sports!

Do it for yourself:

Hub Law Offices
711 Sir Francis Drake Boulevard, San Anselmo, California 94960-1949

287. elena - September 15, 2008

Thanks Lauralupe, that was a great party to wake up to and I do like her “dry as a nut” style! and Arthur, I was going to sing it to myself if you didn’t because it is truly a pleasure to have strecthed out this far! Aline, Nigel and all, I’m so glad we are here! Bravo for the internet!

50 Colored balloons flying out in the sky!
A mixture of bread and cake with carrots and nuts for a cake, not too sweet and hard enough that you can actually feel it.
Champagne for each one of us. A good one and fine cognac.
Music and dance music too and the pleasure of sharing our lives.
Happy Birthday to all!

*******************

Hi Aline, It is a joy to see your name here whenever it pops up, you are one of the many people I wanted to meet in the camp! I’ve not been in the Greater Fellowship so I don’t know what is it about Mihai that we need to think about. For myself I give him a big hug and welcome him out like anyone else from the inside. We were all in “concentration camp conditions” that brought the worst out of us. It is good to know that some people actually managed to have some fun and develop friendships. We weren’t afraid for our lives physically but we were afraid we’d be thrown out if we didn’t adapt to the demands and we thought the demands were legitimate in our aim to work on ourselves. Some became victimizers, others victims. No one could really help it. No one was conscious enough to avoid it. The Dorian-Mihai issue with the women is an outlet to the pressure they were in, corruption was the status quo of the whole of the Fellowship and as young people who rolled high in the ranks they played it out without thinking. There was no malice, they did not know about malice, malice expressed itself without malice! they were and are fortunately still young for that unlike the Girards and Lindas who’ve become incarnations of corruption without needing to think about it and are constantly hiding the malignant things they are doing while at the same time looking like examples of decency. Those are the dangerous ones because they are the ones giving the credibility to the young ones who’ll end up just like them.

Welcome Mihai to this site too if ever you are ready . I am so glad you are out. We have a beautiful long life ahead of us!

288. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

288 Elena

“No one could really help it. No one was conscious enough to avoid it. The Dorian-Mihai issue with the women is an outlet to the pressure they were in, corruption was the status quo of the whole of the Fellowship and as young people who rolled high in the ranks they played it out without thinking. There was no malice, they did not know about malice, malice expressed itself without malice!”

That’s absurd Elena. Either you don’t know the story or you’re taking too many things on the same level. Like your past arguments that RC was basically the same as everyone else here and in the same situation. I think one of your minor flaws seems to be lack of scale in certain things. Just my opinion. Personally, if I was a male in the FOF and found out that my wife was fucking someone for vouchers for meetings and dinners, and ultimately found RB to give just a cursory slap on the wrist I would, first, exit the relationship, second exit the FOF, and third, find a way to not want to off the fucker who ran the scam. But if you feel, well that’s ok, we were al equally beggers, then have at it. Maybe it’s a male/female thing, but I don’t think so.

289. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

288

According to Mihai, he didn’t leave, he was thrown out for, as he said “not being proper enough”. Give me a fucking break.

290. Opus 111 - September 15, 2008

Bruce #289

I found that story of sex for vouchers at first somewhat hard to believe. Whereas Burton sex with members falls squarely in the abuse of power category, and it is readily understandable that many members fall prey to it, the dynamics of D…n and M…i story is quite different. Their power came from REB, but in that particular instance, they were acting on their own “ingenuity” (that is what I believe and it is consistent with REB’s reaction to the whistle blowing). So we have young ladies trading sex with young and attractive young men for vouchers! Vouchers! I do not know how many of those vouchers those ladies could get at any one time (too many would send immediate red flags), but one day working in landscaping got you a pass for 2 events. In fact, many members on payroll would often try to trade vouchers for cash ($50 per). So we are talking about sex for $100, perhaps $200. ????

My view is that those ladies (also young and attractive by the way) were either incredibly naive, or they were not all that reluctant to go for it. There were a few that refused by the way (I know of at least one).

So my view is that story does not fall in the same category as Burton serial abuses of power, because the power dynamics were very different.

291. Mick Danger - September 15, 2008

288
I think it is a male/female thing.
Remember the old saying?:
“A man gives love in order to get sex,
and a woman gives sex in order to get love.”
And so the endless dance begins.

292. arthur - September 15, 2008

When I went to my first “prospective student meeting” I took someone with me.

He wasnt interested at all even through I tried my best to “brain-wash” him with my zeal.

After I was Expelled for being a pirate I came back to homeport and met up with him again.

I never mentioned the FOF to anybody again. The last time I saw this “former Prospective student” was 1985. Until today.

He is in town because his 85 year old father was T-boned at an intersection.

I brought him up to date. How I would do anything for the FOF and such as that NON-SENSE. Then I told him about the information I found out about the FOF that the Leader was a Homosexual and the whole operation was a cult.

He said that he realized my zeal for the FOF but knew right away that it was a cult and a scam. He just didnt want to bring it up.

Strange how some people can see right through the smoke and mirrors while others are dazzled by con-artists of every description.

A pirate for life

293. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

290. Opus 111

Then what, pray tell, were the dynamics in play in the sex for voucher’s gig? Might it also involve lack of conscience, humanity, class, compassion, extension of woman as object etc.? Lack of “Quantity” or “motivation” or “pathology” of exploitation doesn’t give it a pass in any way IMO. Seems the pinnacle of slimy and salacious to me.

294. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

And the part of the women “takers” is not to be taken any lighter, IMO. Very classy on both sides. You can put sequins and jewels on a pig, but it’s still a pig.

295. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

And what the fuck does “attractiveness” have to do with it. Would it have been less a crime if the women were dogs?

296. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

I should have said “less attractive”, please forgive the slip due to vehemence.

297. aline - September 15, 2008

290-opus111

Prostitution (from the Latin prostituere expose to the public) is an activity of accepting or obtaining, in return for remuneration, sexual relations.
From Wikipedia

298. brucelevy - September 15, 2008

297. aline

Something some of the “boys” are frequently quite familiar with.

299. aline - September 15, 2008

#298 Bruce

yes, that’s true it’s just a question of scale.
For me it was taking unacceptable proportions.
I could also say thank you to M…i and D…n, because it was the last push for me (and I had a long history with Robert) to understand that RB was neither my friend nor my master.

300. innernaut - September 15, 2008

Be sure to read, “Born That Gay,” by Robert Burton. No, not that Robert Burton — sadly, he’s not that honest with himself. No, he’s a goddess in a man’s body. Ridiculous. Unless you’re DC. Then it’s just another test.

http://www.salon.com/env/mind_reader/2008/09/12/gay_neurology/index.html

301. Opus 111 - September 15, 2008

Bruce, Aline

Might it also involve lack of conscience, humanity, class, compassion, extension of woman as object etc.? Lack of “Quantity” or “motivation” or “pathology” of exploitation doesn’t give it a pass in any way IMO. Seems the pinnacle of slimy and salacious to me.

Prostitution (from the Latin prostituere expose to the public) is an activity of accepting or obtaining, in return for remuneration, sexual relations.

The behavior of the protagonists may be all that and more.

Successfully trading a voucher for sex in the FOF has got to be rather rare. So the fact that D…n and M…i did it (2-3 members reportedly) made me surmise that perhaps the female protagonists did not find the offer unwelcome or outrageous. Was the fact that D…n and M…i were Burton’s henchmen at play? Without a doubt.

I was pointing out the fact that the dynamics were different, and I would not want to reduce Burton serial abuse of immense power (within the FOF) to what D…n and M…i did. Nowhere did I condone their behavior. Nowhere do I say that it reflects well on the character of the individuals, their consideration for women and their position. Less we forget, Robert Burton has been a living example of corruption for nearly 40 years, using the basest of means to get what he wants, and for what it is worth, promiscuity has been rampant in the FOF. He had those two around him (working like dogs) for years after they joined in their early 20’s. I agree that the pattern of abusive behavior is similar but the degree is different. Another way to understand what I am trying to say is to recall early postings on the blog that were trying to imply that all relationship are inherently imbalanced from the power standpoint, and therefore REB’s behavior is rather trivial (which it is not).
If someone has it from one or more of the female members involved in the events that their play with M…i and D…n had all the same strings of abuse of power that REB applied to the male members that have testified here, I will happily recognize that I have it all wrong.

302. fofblogmoderator - September 15, 2008

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