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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 48 August 30, 2008

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

Excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

Comments

1. vinnie the fish - August 30, 2008

hi i’m the first. wooo!

2. vinnie the fish - August 30, 2008

I heard Mihai left?!
I hope everyone doesn’t feel ‘spiritually raped’ when they leave,
like someone said in a previous page I randomly scanned.
It depends how deluded you were about The Almighty Godlike Man in the first place.
If you never entertained any illusions but saw right through him from the start, you would not feel raped. (Am I the only one? sob…)
By the way, does anyone know a better organization to make friends with so many sincere (but hopefully less deluded 😉 spiritual seekers around the world?
All helpful answers appreciated.
All offensive or abusive answers will be completely ignored.
(They will be removed by my secretary so I won’t see them).

3. lauralupa - August 30, 2008

For bruce. paul, all the others with an interest in science and its relation with spirituality and philosophy:
I have been following a fascinating discussion on Reality Sandwich entitled “Building a religion”. I think it contains a lot of good food for thought, so I suggest if you have the time to check it out.
Thiis is the beginning of the initial post by Richard Merrick:

“Two years ago I decided to return to a research project in music perception that I had postponed nearly thirty years earlier. It seems time had not diminished my curiosity about how we are able to organically measure the degree of dissonance and mentally anticipate the direction of resolution in music harmony. My original work in this area had taken me deep into mathematics and computer simulations in search of an explanation. Now, armed with the scientific method, powerful computer tools and access to the world’s latest research, I was sure that I could determine once and for all whether our perception of music was something organic or nothing more than cultural conditioning. I had no idea that what I was about to learn would shred my faith in Western science and shake the very foundation of my worldview.
Slowly but surely I began to put the pieces together. From a wide array of scientific research in music cognition, neurophysiology, genetics, acoustics, quantum physics and my own calculations and experiments, I developed a set of principles and mathematical models to explain how we perceive music. Naming this system interference theory, I found a way to show how harmonics play a common role in both sound and the structure of our anatomy. The theory proposes that life grows as a balance between resonance and damping just like a vibrating string and that music perception is a built-in pattern matching between the harmonic geometry of sound and identical structures in the ear and brain. In short, I came to see the entire body as a form of crystallized music.”

http://www.realitysandwich.com/building_religion

4. brucelevy - August 30, 2008

3. lauralupa

Very cool. Thank you.

5. whalerider - August 30, 2008

Carlton Noll:
It’s been many moons since I heard that name. Thanks for your observation. I think you are right, that deep seated feelings of inferiority might be why Reality Check keeps retreating behind the authoritarian quotes from Mr. O.

This is the essence of the borderline personality style; during childhood there was too wide a polarization of positive and negative role modeling going on, and the child was unable to incorporate one or the other, causing them to feel ungrounded by having to constantly vacillate between idealization and devaluation.

The core of the fourth way trap is to make a person feel inferior and that matches many people’s family system, making it attractive and unconsciously familiar. (This rings true for me.) It is impossible to stem the flow of our emotions indefinitely and so when negative emotions manifest as they invariably will, one is constantly reminded of failure. There is no sense of mastery, leaving one feeling bankrupt and unsatisfied.

That same inner deficit is probably also fueling Robert’s sex addiction.

You can never get enough of what you really don’t want.

6. will coyote - August 30, 2008

paulshabram …
”Grief, remorse, rightful guilt, and indifference are probably not part of the 4th way system “
what is for you “the terror of the situation “? I am not sure of the tranlation in Ouspensky: self abhorrence, perhaps . This is emotion.(I had some experience , it is not all book quote).
If you feel this you feel pain, but without self pity. It became energy, conscience, courage. Real emotion are emotion that cannot change in contrary-
Real Fa292.ith cannot became dubt, real love cannot became hate.
Compassion ,(dear Whale Rider) is when you cry and I stay with you, feeling with you.
Pity in the sense of selfpity is when you cry and I tell you that you are right of feel low, ,that life is unjust, to stop cry because i feel pain if you go on doing it-

7. unoanimo - August 30, 2008

Lauralupa ~

This aligns with the birth of ‘Brain Music Therapy’. Take a look… She’s developed a system to convert an individual’s brain waves into music; playing it back to the person…
———

:.)

8. will coyote - August 30, 2008

sorry 292 was reference for Paulshabram .THeword is Real Faith
Somebody can help me to find material about Type? I have difficult to understand 6 of spade meaning for example. And then I am curious (diamonds queen?).

9. unoanimo - August 30, 2008

Hello Vinnie ~

You asked, “By the way, does anyone know a better organization to make friends with so many sincere (but hopefully less deluded 😉 spiritual seekers around the world?”
________

Yes. Its located in nearly every washroom, just above the sink.

10. Vinnie the Fish - August 30, 2008

Yes very informative Uno.
Do you spend hours staring in a mirror and learning the secrets of your soul and the universe?

11. whalerider - August 30, 2008

Tell me, Vinnie the Fish, when you sit there in a trance staring at your cult leader’s left eyeball, and you hear him talking about angels hovering over the dinner table, do you believe he actually sees them?

12. Rear View Mirror - August 30, 2008

For someone new to the blog, here’s the first of 48 pages:

http://animamrecro.wordpress.com/2006/04/16/fellowship-of-friends-a-cult-for-intellectuals/

13. unoanimo - August 30, 2008

Come on Vinnie… I know it’s the next to the last day of August, Russia nearly started WWIII, a category 3 hurricane named ‘Gustav’ is on its way to New Orleans and the fellowship is applying for their liquor license: lighten up my friend, it wasn’t meant to go in the direction of Narcissus… Though it’s not the Lamborghini who gets the speeding ticket is it?

The other day I asked a current student ~ “Are there any vitamins around here?”

He replied, “Valium?”

We hear what we want to hear; I didn’t mean to tug at your whiskers… Sorry if I initiated too much ‘cleverness’… Have a great holiday weekend Vinnie.

14. whalerider - August 30, 2008

…and the Darvon was kept in the hidden cabinet to the left of the scallop shell sink.

15. lauralupa - August 30, 2008

will coyote 8
Dear will, your desire to learn and explore is refreshing. Unfortunately many of us don’t find the body types and centers of gravity classifications that we were taught in the FoF very useful anymore. Joel F. and Susan Z. wrote books about these subjects (see the Amazon link), but if I understand correctly, even they don’t value too highly this knowledge at present.

http://www.amazon.com/Body-Types-Enneagram-Essence/dp/0936385251

Hi again Vinnie,
didn’t I provide you with a link to sarlo’s guru ratings webpage a while ago? You couldn’t find a decent spiritual teacher in there?
Or are you looking for a guru-less organization?
Or simply wasting your time and ours as usual?

16. arthur - August 30, 2008

Dr. Nicoll of the “B” influence Commentaries says that the Bible appeals to the “sensual mind” and the “spiritual mind”. That the words in the Bible have two meanings.

To the sensual mind water means something to drink, where fish swim, the seas, bays and wells. What was it that Jesus the Christ said to the woman at the well? “With this well water you will thirst again, but the Water I have is a well-spring of eternal life”? Look it up, it was something like that.

So, Water esoterically means Truth.

I know vinnie the fish. We are both out of Water gasping for the breath of eternal life.

17. Yesri Baba - August 30, 2008

13

Don’t fret Uno. Vinnie was just seeing his reflection, as usual.

18. whalerider - August 30, 2008

My sincere apologies, Vinnie the Fish, if my confederates here are correct in the assumption that you were not being factious in asking for information about a better organization of international scope in which to make friends with others hopefully less deluded than the those now in the FOF, I may have mistook your intent and sincerity.

Are you still a member of the FOF then, or recently liberated?

I am of the mind that no one person holds all the answers, and that feedback from a broad spectrum of the solar system is more likely to give one a more accurate glimpse of the whole truth, the bigger picture. More often than not, we look for others to validate the truths we already ‘know’ in our heart of hearts anyway.

I think that you’ll find many here that will speak to the truth if you start by sharing yours. And you can be sure that the GF site is populated with a significant number of less deluded people from all over the planet too, than you might find still mired in FOF indoctrination.

So look no further than to your keyboard and travel no further than to the shores of your own heart.

BTW, staring into a mirror is a great way to produce a self-hypnotic trance where you could give yourself suggestions to improve your self-esteem, for instance, if that was an issue for you.

The secret is that you already hold within you the wonders of the universe if you know where to look. And your dreams will never lie to you or exploit you.

19. Reality Check - August 30, 2008

Thoughts from Ouspensky:

“Real knowledge, objective knowledge is knowledge which comes from higher mind.”

“If we meet people of a higher level, we shall not recognize their being, but we can recognize their knowledge; we know the limits of our knowledge, so we can see when somebody knows more than we do.”

“We can ask ourselves: was it invented on the same level as ours or on a different level?”

Robert Burton: This is what Epictetus meant when he said: “Show me the charm that will defeat death.” The charm is the sequence. Show me the sequential charm that will defeat death.
In Degas’ painting, Dancers, Green and Pink, the lower self is intestinal figure with a protruding stomach concealed behind the column. The two dancers in the back represent short Be and long Be – Isis and Nephthys – while the four dancers in the center, forming a square, represent Theme, Back, Theme, and Be. On the far right the seventh dancer – seventh heaven – is passing outside of time with four fingers. The nine of hearts has delivered a sequence to the third eye, and the third eye is maintaining its grip on the four wordless breaths, in spite of the efforts of the lower self to disrupt it.

***

Is this the teaching of higher mind or the predictable ravings of a deranged man number 2?

At any rate it is certainly nothing but B influence at best.

Anyone really believe this stuff?

**************

page 47/304. waskathleenw – August 30, 2008
From the mouths of babes . . .

“My sister has a neighbor with a nine-year-old. They live down the street from a Catholic church called Immaculate Conception Catholic Church. Nine-year-old asks mom what immaculate conception meant…”

***

“My sister has a neighbor…”

We know right away that there is going to be a bit of the game “telephone” involved in the transmission of this amazing yarn. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers )

“…a nine-year-old.” “…what immaculate conception meant…”

It’s a little unclear here, did the nine year old actually read the words “Immaculate Conception” off the marquee himself or did the adults say it out loud every time they drove by with the child in the car?

Is this anecdotal evidence from higher mind or the predictable guile of an identified man number 2?

If it is somehow true then it is disheartening to see a mere nine year old developing such a sharp and alert false personality. It certainly doesn’t strike me as in any way “darling.”

“Mom tried her best to explain what it meant, at least as best she could to a 4th grader, and 4th grader’ response was ….’You mean they really believe that stuff?’”

Anyone really believe this stuff?

20. nigel harris price - August 30, 2008

test

21. nigel harris price - August 30, 2008

Isca (Exeter) means water (Roman). Devon means Divine (Deffon – Gaelic). Trust me – question me…..Nigel.

22. elena - August 30, 2008

FOF Moderator, Thank you for giving us the details of the blog stats. I doubt that many will last for long but you’re all so very welcome to the Public Square, please feel welcome to share your self with us.

Please also feel free to skip all these long posts, even you Paul if you wish, just allow me the fun!

47-292 Paul: “Grieving, remorse and consciousness are not negative emotions in the Fourth Way System or in any System of beliefs that I know of.”

Grief, remorse, rightful guilt, and indifference are probably not part of the 4th way system (they are, for sure, in other systems, particularly if you grew up Catholic). Why is that? I have experience the first three in big ways. I could not in any stretch of the imagination call these positive emotions. I am eternally grateful for having them, however. You have identified these emotions as “positive” (I think) because they are good to have. Maybe we can call them “constructive negative emotions”.

I was tired yesterday to understand what you are trying to convey, allow me to look at it again. I understand “grief” as a positive emotion in the System and in my own experience in as much as it allows for an experience to be acknowledged into one’s reality and being.
The experience of grief seems closely related to separations. Death, divorce, leaving a community, school, university, job… I thought what was meant by saying that it was a “positive” emotion was that it brings us closer to reality or the world of laws. Have you ever felt that you can “taste someone’s spirit” when they die? That it reveals itself to you in a way you had not grasped fully before they died? Or after divorcing your multiple wives or husbands, have you over time discovered the beauty of their soul? It is in this sense that I understand grief as a positive emotion; it yields a reality beyond the physical that makes us more aware of the different dimensions both within ourselves and the world. To grieve at the fact that one has been temporarily separated from the loved ones is not a negative emotion. Not even a constructive negative emotion but I‘ll accept your term if you’re more comfortable with it. I guess I just can’t compute sadness with negativity.

Remorse to me is different to guilt and here we would have to look into necessary and unnecessary suffering which would also fit into grief. The most amazing thing when I woke up in the hospital after breaking my skull in two was that I realized that that was simply the result of eighteen years of unnecessary suffering and negative emotions. There was absolutely nothing heroic about it but from there to blaming my self for it is a huge distance. After I was able to see it, it was not so difficult to understand that I was responsible at least for my own well being but before that, life got me into its own wave and did with it what it wanted. That is why I decided to take Heather and would do everything to help young people get out of their suffering; they cannot do it on their own.
Why would they be able to if there are no other references?

Remorse in the System is taken to metanoia or “change of mind” presenting the idea that when you realize fully enough that you’ve acted mistakenly in a situation, you make a firm resolution to act differently and for that you experience an almost complete “change of mind” or metanoia. In our life experience this can happen in small and big experiences. For some people it is best to taste small experiences at a time and for others it is the great big shock and all at once. For me it was the latter. I saw in one single blow that when the instinctive centre is the power behind false personality, I went about life wishing other people to carry me instinctively, emotionally and had a great blah, blah, blah to explain it with but mostly I did not feel enough dignity within myself to carry myself.

When I got out of the hospital I was determined to learn to carry myself. To be alive is in itself an issue of dignity. To breath is enough. This world in itself is an issue of dignity. Each particle of sunlight is a particle of dignity. But these are things that most of us take for granted all our lives. From one angle, consciousness is nothing but the understanding of the powers that surround us: The immense beauty of the power of the Earth and the Sun and the game of the planets in our lives….. Nature…. and US. The whole universe would be nothing without US, in fact it is only an expression of our self, but by US I mean all the hierarchies of beings besides the human beings. I think the idea that we are third force blind is related to this. We take the real things that sustain our life for granted so we have very little opportunities to experience gratitude which is just an aspect of dignity. When you “breathe” this world, you breathe beauty. Dignity is the awareness that we are here because it is our birthright in the System’s language but you could say; the awareness that you are one with the Universe, that the Universe embraces you with the same quality of being with which you embrace it. Words are limited but it is joyful to try to convey such things.

What I understand by negative emotions is any act that separates us from each other or the world around us. False personality in the language of the System or our selfishness… greed, is ALWAYS trying to get something for itself. It is ALWAYS living on particles because it is never aware of the whole. It is the animal or instinctive conviction that “owning” things will make it eternal but it is a vicious circle of life in which the human being is identified with the world of matter. A mentality that is convinced that if one owns properties one will live forever in them. It is essentially the fear of losing one’s own body. The trouble from one angle is that we think we can live in the objects but in fact we only live in our relationship to both objects and human beings. In the unconsciousness of our greed we treat other human beings as objects and establish every hierarchical structure that can objectify the quantity of time that a man can speak, look or feel so as to be acknowledged trying desperately to never acknowledge each other long enough because the instinctive centre behind false personality or the consciousness of an animal in a human being is always stealing the dignity of being human from each other.

Please allow me to state that animal consciousness in animals is the consciousness of nature and it is under divine laws but animal consciousness in human beings is unnatural and it is not under divine laws.

I beg you forgive me for the fact that you inspire me such long posts. It is always good to know that in the Public Square no one is better than anybody else, there is no limit to the being that anyone can express, life is infinite, love is infinite, no one is taking anything from anybody else, and the limitations of time and space are nonexistent in the Public Square where we can all be. When we’ve talked enough and change our minds enough, we’ll each just come out to the Public Square of our city and “breathe” this world. No one is condemned to read but if you do, thank you for your time.

23. whalerider - August 30, 2008

Reality Check:
Another great example of vacillating from idealization to devaluation, all in one post!

Have you actually met any men or women of a higher level lately…or recognized any new “real objective knowledge”?

24. Reality Check - August 30, 2008

18. whalerider – August 30, 2008

“And your dreams will never lie to you or exploit you.”

***

Didn’t you once dream that you were in the company of a “conscious being,” a “man number six” (at the time)? You spent your time in the mistaken dream state that you were really “learning” something important from him, right? At least I remember you saying so rather forcefully. If you expanded the context of your thoughts enough so that your comments encompassed the enormous contradictions that represent your life while engaged the hobby of “spiritual pursuits” then you’d likely be far more discriminating and therefore far less vocal with your opinions. Not to mention far less disparaging of others.

25. Across the River - August 30, 2008

Dear My4bits,

Is today the day???

My mental calendar beeped last night (good job!) following my genuine interest in your 30-day plan, as you described it.

Not much time to post right now, but thanks for your story here. Now that the pieces are buried I hope you take unoamimo’s suggestion to bury the bolt-cutter as well. This blog will run its course someday but maybe there’s no longer a need to fear attachment to it – “everything changes” – understandings, too.

Gentle blessings to you, My4bits…..

26. brucelevy - August 30, 2008

24. Reality Check

“If you expanded the context of your thoughts enough so that your comments encompassed the enormous contradictions that represent your life while engaged the hobby of “spiritual pursuits” then you’d likely be far more discriminating and therefore far less vocal with your opinions. Not to mention far less disparaging of others.”

You saying the above is much like Elena telling us to stop ranting at each other, or exposing others’ secrets. Do you not see that? Do you not see that you and your style typify exactly what you are constantly going on about. It’s bizarre. It’s like you don’t hear what you say, much of which can be fairly profound when it’s not from the other side of that spectrum.

27. Yesri Baba - August 30, 2008

I am going to try to create a little unification of 4th way and non-duality while perhaps eliminating some of the bullsit being shoveled here about ‘Higher mind.’ At least this may provide a different perspective for someone who does not have their head firmly and deeply shoved up their ass.
Always already ever present awareness (witness) is always already occuring in everybody all the time. The purpose of spiritual practice and disciplines is is to ‘awaken’ this always already awareness, cause this awareness to become aware of itself if you will (3rd state) (I am going to assume most reading this are following this and know what I am talking about). This sustained always already awareness aware of itself is the ‘highest’ ‘state’ there is.
This is the point where everything goes wrong and fantastical wacked out thinking takes over and fucks everything up. Our knuckleheads think that this 3rd state present awareness is ‘higher’ so therefore the 4th stste must be ‘higher’ still. We imagine merging with some higher mind receiving the secret knowledge of the universe while cruising the galaxies at the speed of light- horseshit.
The 4th state is coming back down. It is sustained always already present awareness aware of itself coming back down into us and untangling our tangled webs and dissolving the illusory barrier between the ‘witness’ and our personal psychology revealing the only being that exists.
“Higher mind’ does not exist somewhere in the ‘ether’ to be tapped and brought back down to the thirsting masses. It grows, evolves and produces through all of life. There is much to be gained by reading the old dead guys, but really, aren’t we the ones we have been waiting for?

28. nigel harris price - August 30, 2008

Anyone seen Stephen Spielberg’s A.I.? (Spielberg means ‘play mountain’). It is about recognising that the Universe (which carries us, both physically and our ideals and possibilities) is female. So all of you stop your male rantings (and that includes your imitations thereof, Elena) and listen to your Universal Heart…..Nigel.

29. whalerider - August 30, 2008

Reality Check:
Oh, believe me, I did learn something really, really important from Mr. Burton. And it was no dream, my friend, it was as real as it gets, and I was learning it directly from the fucking source, not from reading edited journals, nor listening to hearsay, nor as you sat glassy-eyed at the dinners half-baked on wine.

That’s why I left. Haven’t I made that clear? And if I told you then, like so many others, you would not have believed me.

So answer me, have you or have you not actually met anyone lately or in your entire life for christsakes, whom you consider of a “high level of being” that you recognize from spouting this “real objective knowledge” from their “higher mind” that you dream about in books?

I think not.

That’s what it means to idealize. Nobody can live up to an idealized expectation.

30. Across the River - August 30, 2008

24 RC

You see a contradiction because your perspective is limited. Robert Burton exploited WR, and WR “allowed” it because he was trusting the environment where his dreams were invested. So a correction was needed but what does that have to do with the essence of WR’s “dreams” or “spiritual pursuits”.

You are WAY hung up on words, RC. It is so tedious when you pick at the little pieces without seeing their bigger context. Maybe you imagine you escape the contradictions of life by filtering it all through a tidy lens, but why don’t you see those limits? Does having it all figured out allow you to “get” anything new, or are you just on some mission to insist on the Fourth Way perspective here?

Anyday I’d prefer a friend who will take risks, make mistakes and learn from them, apply the experience by offering a companionable helping hand to another, feel and humbly know their place in the universe, accept the “messiness” of life and still find joy in the experience. What’s the competition thing you’ve got going on, RC?

Whalerider, appreciating your posts lately and that you answered Vinnie without guile.

31. Reality Check - August 30, 2008

Reality Check:

“Not to mention far less disparaging of others.”

Now get this, this is actually from Bruce:

“You saying the above is much like Elena telling us to stop ranting at each other, or exposing others’ secrets. Do you not see that?”

Now this from me:

You really think you’ve got any room to discourage others from discouraging others from disparaging others? I will admit that you do somehow manage to avoid going verbally violent against anyone you randomly apply this formula to: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

And the mind numbing madness of blog entertainment goes on.

This from the sage Yesri Baba:

“Always already ever present awareness (witness) is always already occuring in everybody all the time. The purpose of spiritual practice and disciplines is is to ‘awaken’ this always already awareness…”

This from me:

Uh, why does “already awareness” need to be awakened by spiritual practice if it is already occurring in everybody “all the time?” Please don’t bother to answer. Please.

32. Reality Check - August 30, 2008

Whale rider I need to tell you something that I’ve been meaning to say for years. Back in the later part of the 1980’s I was walking along Clay Street on the sidewalk below Alta Vista Park when I suddenly thought of something funny just off the wall and it made me laugh, just as I was laughing I looked across the street and you were walking toward me and we exchanged glances. You look very sheepish and demoralized. I have no idea what your thoughts were, but I was not laughing at you. I worried that you might think so. I should have, and so should have you, waved and stopped to talk. After all we were friends on one level and laughed plenty as I recall.

33. unoanimo - August 30, 2008

For you Arthur ~

I am not sure why/how, it just feels right to turn it in your direction…

I found this in the ‘vault’… It’s by Rob Conrad ~

“I was in a lusciously dark space. Everything was exceedingly quiet and calm. Seated in a chair in front of me and to my right was an extraordinarily powerful woman, protected by a palpable aura of impregnability and strength. Around her, at the limits of her personal space, in a kind of angular, boxy shape, gleamed the subtle blue highlights of an impregnable force. The woman was well-groomed, self-possessed, immersed in an ultimate way in the peace and enjoyment of her own being. She seemed to be meditating, and she exuded a presence that was deeply ancient and simultaneously alive. To her right hand was a tree-like plant form, no taller than she. I say “tree-like” because the leaves of the bush were made out of glassy material in colors of dark green, deep red, and dark blue, edged with some kind of precious metal, and well-separated one from the other. The leaves were vibrant, and shimmered slightly in the deep blue-black darkness of the environment, displaying subtle pinpoints of a red light, like the end of an ultra-fine fiber optic line. This woman and her plant gave off a kind of energy or power that was permeable (but at a very slow rate, in the way that water seeping through sandstone is permeable). A cold chisel, dynamite, a nuclear bomb — none of these could violate her space. I got the feeling that it might be possible to penetrate into this woman’s space, but because she was so powerful, it would take a length of time that would be measured in hundreds of thousands—or millions—of years. You would have to approach so slowly, you would have to be so single-minded, it was unimaginable the length of time or force of nature employed to get into this state. Here is how powerful she seemed: I looked at a single tip of her hair in extreme closeup, and it was as strong as a steel rebar in concrete or a tempered Japanese sword. I did not interact with this woman or her plant, I was only in her presence. Tears have come to my eyes thinking about this scene again. What I say about her and her plant is beside the point; she has a reality of her own that stands without need of my commentary.”

—————

Nigel,

I found this ‘before’ your calling for it; so, I guess this is for you too. Enjoy! Yes, there’s a heat wave in Oregon House and I am sitting at my computer clicking ‘Reload’ every half hour while reading and writing.

Yesri Baba ~

“…aren’t we the ones we have been waiting for?”

Beautiful! Ding dang it, Oregon House is not such an illogical place today.

34. whalerider - August 30, 2008

Dang, Reality Check, I wish you had. I probably was a bit demoralized back then, seeing the long road ahead of me. I left the FOF with nothing but a trunk of my clothes and a head full of fucked up memories. I had to start my life over from scratch.

Man, you are a tough nut to crack. Thanks for the memory.

35. brucelevy - August 30, 2008

31. Reality Check

You missed my point entirely. I wasn’t referring to disparagement or discouragement at all. I was referring to thesae observations and statements you make that seem to emanate from a place completely cut off from the reality of who you are. The quoted statement from my previous post would eminently apply to you, as many of your outgoing statements do, but I get the distinct feeling that you feel you are coming from a place of knowledge and being while being the exact thing you are giving advice about or against. Do you follow me?

Example: ““If you expanded the context of your thoughts enough so that your comments encompassed the enormous contradictions that represent your life while engaged the hobby of “spiritual pursuits” then you’d likely be far more discriminating and therefore far less vocal with your opinions. Not to mention far less disparaging of others.”

If that were true of you, or for you your posts would be completely different, not in content but tone. You would also be more readily heard. So you expound advice that you are not able to manifest yourself. And that’s fine. But you talk like you know and like you can “be”, and you are so far from your words that that is why I use the word bizarre.

36. nigel harris price - August 30, 2008

You will have to go from unoanimo MIND 33 (awakening) back to my page #47 post 303 to find out where you are all going here…..Nigel.

37. nigel harris price - August 30, 2008

There is something very clever going on here with RC and DC – they are dark side of the force ‘plants’ on both sides from the FOF – I said BE CAREFUL…..Nigel.

38. nigel harris price - August 31, 2008

TRUST – I go PUBLIC DOMAIN – my custom site is aprhys@nigelprice.net on http://www.absolute-email.net.
ACCESS – NO FEAR code name/password ‘avatar’.

39. nigel harris price - August 31, 2008

BRAVEHEART
Q. Wur yoo goin’?
A. Am goona picka fight (Mel Gobsmacked)

40. nigel harris price - August 31, 2008

(19)39 REB – Death becomes into earth-birth!

41. nigel harris price - August 31, 2008

Poor peace as the sun sets
And dark shoals every holy field.
We shall ride out alone, and then,
Under the stars of Wales.
Cry, multitude of arks! Across
The water lidded lands,
Manned with their loves they’ll move,
Like wooden islands, hill to hill,
Huloo, my prowed dove with a flute!
Ahoy, old, sea-legged fox,
Tom tit and Dai mouse!
My ark sings in the sun
At God speeded summer’s end
And the flood flowers NOW (!)

Dylan Thomas (from Prologue)

42. My4bits - August 31, 2008

Across the River, post 25

Thanks for the kind words.

Yes, today’s the day, at midnight tonight!

As I mentioned in a previous post, I’ve often experienced synchronicities related to daily “links” in the chain. Today, upon walking out a favorite restaurant where I had had lunch, I saw none other than Bobbie Burton and the Bobbettes, sitting at a table. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw Burton smile as I approached, but I just walked on by and out the door.

Afterwards, walking down the street, I imagined all of the things I could have said / should have said (or done) to the assembled apparition. But it was all negative brain-chatter… I let the energy reverberate for a while and gradually quieted down again.

It was useful to be reminded of the power this pitiful individual had over me for so many years. Bizarre, just bizarre. And now, over. The “chain of 30 links” that binds me to the past is almost broken.

43. nigel harris price - August 31, 2008

42 (Whitman and Shakespeare working with me – all other gods in ‘auxilium humantarium’) – My4bits YES The smile on the face of the Tiger, as they say (Blake – Tiger, tiger burning bright etc., referring to England’s Industrial Revolution TIGER = MECHANICALITY)

W B Yeats “At midnight, God shall win”

You guys are giving me an ‘all-nighter’ – the downers just will not work – The Awakened Guest will not leave the House

I am what you were seeking – “You are all my reasons” ‘A Beautiful Mind’…..Nigel.

44. My4bits - August 31, 2008

Nigel, thanks.

Yes, “At midnight, God shall win.”

Here’s a link to a YouTube music video (Beware: Bollywood!) that celebrates liberation! Enjoy!

Cheers!

45. nigel harris price - August 31, 2008

Managed that one all the way through..thanks for the stamina….Nigel.

46. Rear View Mirror - August 31, 2008

To current members,

I had a talk with a friend today — someone I’ve told all about the FOF.

They said, “Years ago, you stayed in the FOF because you didn’t want to hurt Burton’s feelings. You didn’t want to reject him.”

47. Yesri Baba - August 31, 2008

33 Uno

Stole that from Barack Obama.

48. nigel harris price - August 31, 2008

I was ‘fleeced’ – not emotionally or physically raped – by REB and the FOF. If we are going to fight this out, could it be the greatest comeback since Lazarus?…..Nigel.

49. nigel harris price - August 31, 2008

49 (Return to San Francisco to go into a law-court?). Don’t let it go into ‘legalise’ – expose whose side on wich the Gods are. AG will be employed to show that the cult is just a ‘charity show’ Burton has not honoured his name – Richard Burton did – best modern actor and truly charitable to his family in Wales…..Nigel.

50. Yesri Baba - August 31, 2008

31

At least you gave it some thought with an open mind and your powerful intellect Dawg.

I will happily leave you barking up your wrong tree and cursing the stupid world knowing you will come to understand what I wrote sooner or later after licking your own ass long enough.

51. Rear View Mirror - August 31, 2008

“barking up your wrong tree.”

five words that tell it all.

52. My4bits - August 31, 2008

This, from a study of “Sadism and Masochism:”

A recruit says, “It’s hard, but I like it. They’re strict. The Marine Corps is hard on discipline. If you can take the orders, sir, you can make it in the Marine Corps, sir. In our platoon there’s only a few that don’t give a damn. Sooner or later they’ll get rid of them and we’ll have a damn good platoon.”

Sound familiar?

53. Rear View Mirror - August 31, 2008

my4bits, 52, Yes, it does sound familiar. For quite a few people in the FOF, it’s all about endurance. In fact, the more nonsense Burton inflicts upon them, the more they want to stay, because it shows just how much pain they can take. It’s a type of macho. Weird.

54. My4bits - August 31, 2008

RVM, post 53

Macho, maybe. But masochistic, definitely.

The author continues (snippets):

“For example, suffering that may merely be ‘tolerated’ as an acceptable price to pay for other satisfaction…”

“For some people the idea of suffering physical torture, coercion, and humiliation is highly erotic.”

“I am referring not only to self-inflicted physical pain that is not evidently erotic but, more common, various sorts of exaggerated self-depreciation and demeaning humility and deference and also — probably the most common form of masochism — the chronic, usually bitter exaggeration and “nursing” of humiliation, defeats, and injustices.”

“The problem is to understand the frame of mind to which this strange, paradoxical behavior is satisfying or, at least, necessary.”

55. arthur - August 31, 2008

Acknowledgement Unoanimo (33),

To see or not to see that is the question, from the dark continent, to The Monkey Tribe in me.

From life support to supporting life, how else?

56. My4bits - August 31, 2008

To all brave, fellow seekers, this is my last post.

You are up to the task. You are the task. It is done.

57. Reality Check - August 31, 2008

The is my lost post:

58. Reality Check - August 31, 2008

Take two:

This is my lost post:

59. James Mclemore - August 31, 2008

56. My4bits

Good luck, and as the Irish say, “may the road rise to meet you”.

60. Rear View Mirror - August 31, 2008

My4bits, regarding 54, that doesn’t sound healthy, does it.

We gave ourselves all sorts of excuses for enduring pain — transformation of suffering, the need for friction, separating, not believing the ‘I’s, and just plain being tough guys who don’t whine. But at some point it does make you wonder if there’s a hidden psychological cause beneath the surface.

As you’re implying, maybe the simplest answer is that it’s a type of masochism.

We didn’t walk around saying this out loud, but we (our egos) pretended to be supermen on a spiritual level. Supermen? We weren’t even healthy, let alone “super.”

I still think it’s weird that we talked about “good student acts” in the FOF, but we never looked at the most obvious act — the “teacher act.” That’s the “act” that we should have paid the most attention to. As well as the fact that the entire cult was an act. We acted and pretended to be healthy, we acted and pretended to have it together. We were not healthy, and we didn’t have it together.

Dysfunction and disease — this is the “state” of the fof. That’s why the acts are so important to keep the ship afloat.

61. lauralupa - August 31, 2008

unoanimo 13, your mention of Narcissus reminded me of some excerpts I copied a few years ago from the book “Embracing the Beloved” by Stephen and Ondrea Levine. I think they cover a similar ground to what we have been discussing here recenly:

We learn to be loving by watching how unloving we are.

It is time to have a deeper mercy and lighter humor about what Zorba the Greek called “the whole catastrophe”, the nature of the conditioned mind.

Narcissus is that part of us all, self-enamored, self-protectiveand seemingly isolated in a body and a mind, calling out for recognition. He is our only child, the fragile “I” to which we attribute all our remarkable amness.

Suzuki Roshi said that ninety-five percent of our ordinary thinking is self-centered. That doesn’t leave much room for the truth.

Narcissus is the overindulgent architect of the ever-indulged self-image. Narcissus is a large part of small mind.

Narcissus is an enemy only to Narcissus. The small mind judging its small-mindedness.

Narcissus is as natural as our will to live. Embracing Narcissus is self-acceptance.

There are many parts of us, wounded and uwilling to expose theselves, fearful of infection, which resist the next step of letting go, the next level of our healing.

Narcissus only wars with the idea of himself. Shadowboxing. When small mind sees itself clearly, acknowledges its illusory reflections held so precious and so fearfully, it becomes big mind.

The secret is to love oneself as Narcissus could not.

Forgivenes finishes unfinished business. When I take you into my heart “as is”, when I unconditionally embrace you as the process you are on its way to the Beloved, then I no longer am angered by not receiving from you what I am unable to give myself.

The only service you can do for anyone is remind them of their true nature.

62. will coyote - August 31, 2008

This is the translation of a post in italian blog on my ex-school: I post because i should like see your opinion…

The first barrier is overstepped in the moment in which the student accepts once to put on for under the will of another person, the teacher, and you/he/she is prepared to invest money and time for this work.
this entry of done it implicates the acceptance from the student of one of the ‘laws’ of the system (but I say some universe..):

1)give / have: to be able to receive is necessary to give ;this law for following approximations it turns him into this way:
2) to get something great (the evolution) I must give so much in change
3) to show that I desire to get something great (the evolution) and not having material of exchange to the height (being only me a clapped out car that only a teacher can perhaps cure) I/you/they are had to abdicate apart my time and of my substances that certainly, anything me face, runs over today in way ‘not useful.’ recognizing the objective as the most elevated possible the resistances they decrease, I/you/they are prepared to give in change what I have in time and money.

Contemporarily the first octaves are developed, generally simple and effective, in which the more ones start to become himself/herself/themselves account of a series of things that before they didn’t know. It is shared and it is continually underlined how much the system works and concretely modifies the quality of the life (this is a resounding deception, but you/he/she is repeated so so much and well that at the end he believes..), what gift he is received to have been invited by someone to a lecture or to a seminar, that unbelievable fortune both to have the possibility to come into contact with the Master what having this so impudent fortune should try to meet him/it every time that it is possible (this will prepare then the ground to the following ones, pressing invitations to witness to every sort of event, to payment, in Your presence), and then the oneness of the Street, his/her difference and superiority in comparison to any other existing evolutionary run.
The following passage, after further, repeated repetitions it is: if is good for my life, if hands shortly time these changes, but then thing could desire more beautiful than to give this possibility to the others that sleep out there (“after all I have entered because someone has done the same with me!!!”).
but it is not time yet, it needs to study, to observe, to make the octaves but not to talk to anybody of it. up to the moment in which the group or the individual are considered ready…and the crusade departs, excused ehm…, the octave of the diffusion! with these premises it results evident that the student is not distantly set even the problem to have to sell a product as a selling agent without commissions…
If everything is all right he arms and part to rocket, if it is not all right you/he/she is made to pass the idea that heis not ready ¨, that has not understood that the possibility to give to other is the more high form of love and if the student is in opposition to the idea to ask money because he¨ has not included until after all the law of the to give yet / possession and is still¨ attached to the money…and if the other doesn’t accept for economic motives him it comes to sustain that the student not resolved his/her attachment I pour the money and you/he/she projects him/it on the others. and if everybody the contacted people have economic problems it means that it attracts us that flow and that then is essential ¨ to change flow, environments, knowledges.

63. lauralupa - August 31, 2008

will coyote, are you Italian? me too…

64. James Mclemore - August 31, 2008

61. lauralupa

Thank you so much for that.

This particularly was helpful for me:

“Narcissus is an enemy only to Narcissus. The small mind judging its small-mindedness.”

65. Reality Check - August 31, 2008

35. brucelevy – August 30, 2008
31. Reality Check

“You missed my point entirely. I wasn’t referring to disparagement or discouragement at all. I was referring to thesae observations and statements you make that seem to emanate from a place completely cut off from the reality of who you are. The quoted statement from my previous post would eminently apply to you, as many of your outgoing statements do, but I get the distinct feeling that you feel you are coming from a place of knowledge and being while being the exact thing you are giving advice about or against. Do you follow me?

“Example: ““If you expanded the context of your thoughts enough so that your comments encompassed the enormous contradictions that represent your life while engaged the hobby of “spiritual pursuits” then you’d likely be far more discriminating and therefore far less vocal with your opinions. Not to mention far less disparaging of others.”

“If that were true of you, or for you your posts would be completely different, not in content but tone. You would also be more readily heard. So you expound advice that you are not able to manifest yourself. And that’s fine. But you talk like you know and like you can “be”, and you are so far from your words that that is why I use the word bizarre.”

***

Why does this concern you so much? First of all I am almost never addressing you when you jump in and try to protect someone from being bullied by me, a being with no being. If I was talking to you then it would make sense that you would have something to say, but you somehow imagine yourself the protector of the defenseless populace. Whalerider can certainly defend himself from me. Why does Bruce need to point out what is not only true for me but true for everyone, that if each person applied an insight they have about the behavior another to themselves that it would also stick. We all already know that, except I honestly believe that you somehow imagine that it wouldn’t stick to you, which is why you’ve see yourself as Sheriff Bruce. You are in absolutely no position to go about the business of keep anyone one else honest, honestly.

Your own lack of self-understanding is certainly as bizarre as mine.

66. unoanimo - August 31, 2008

62. will coyote ~

Did you translate this from Italian to English? It reads in an odd way for me, choppy and there’s some connective stuff that seems to be missing.

For me, the gist of what I feel about it is that it needs ‘heart’ or heart ache; either one will take you into the same place for exploration sakes. There’s a struggle in there (the crusade?) that’s churning, similar to Gustav the Hurricane, though way out to sea, not endangering its peripheral fans, just getting its itself wound up over some sort of urgency that’s affirmatively supported by experiment and hope, though there’s no “Meat on the Table” (An old Viking/Norse saying meaning, ‘How could you plow and water the field all season long and have forgotten the seeds?’)

It reminds me of Town Hall meeting a little bit, particularly after wards, when, once my ‘spirit’ was energized with the sharing and sense of ‘nest(y)ness’, I would stand there and ‘think/yearn’ my way into being a good student (the melody-Echo’s of others helped this) hopeful in Robert’s projects (my projects?), building the affirmation, the statue of a god who hasn’t shown up on Earth yet, though the Absolute Maternity Ward is said to have promised its footsteps (on a daily card) before I died…

The daily card ritual was odd, the say the least: I look back and remember the feeling of going to the Lincoln Lodge to get my ‘one’ 4″ x 4″ magnetic-center meal ticket… It was a sort of Raincheck for my heart; I was (IMO) actually (partly) visiting my ‘Father’s House’… Need is a very tricky railroad…

I believe the ‘power’ in those cards was the “Love, Robert” bit (I always took that snippet very ‘subconsciously-personally’): it entered me like an ethereal, archetypal ‘Return of the Prodigal Son’ thingy-embrace… Reading its final message, no matter the ‘stuff in the head’ at its inception, affirmed that there was ‘Love on the Earth’ (albeit my make believe world), or in the heart (albeit Pinocchio’s heart)…

Later I would discover that partly, my time in the fellowship was a sort of secret printing press, a place where all my demons subconsciously wrote deeper and deeper books on the ‘Advertising of Hell’ for the sake of my ability to be able to read them when the library was eventually burnt down by my flock of ‘angles’; see, their pages are fireproof, while the building and card cataloging was everything to me at the time, never mind that the town only ‘did Braille’…
____________

So, the quote for me reminds me of me, though it’s ‘an Echo’ in the background of Narcissus (the French have a phrase for it that sounds like ‘On-We’) leaning against a stone wall, listening to the breeze screech a fallen limbs across frozen ponds and a season’s millionth delivery of its autumn leaves’ little down turned cat claws scraping across the Sleet Covered some strange arrangement of melody, something so familiar that my heart wants to just ‘keep the trying to figure out’ part and not be the diving into the solution…

These days, underwater spelunking is important and staying down too: I’ve found that there are miraculous air pockets to be found ‘trapped’ in the most inhospitable places in me; nonetheless, their my ancient air bubbles and I’ve got to inhale them, with or without my picture looking back at me; sometimes it’s Robert’s picture… I’ve stopped challenging him in my heart and just let it surface and go where conscience takes it…

After all, it was by my automatic ‘challenging of the world that I was brought into’ which inevitably brought me to this place called Oregon House; “shadow boxing” in gods bright face, hidden inside my nest, my little god-pimple-sauna …

The growing up part began when I found the magnet which had attracted all these affirmative signs: it reminds me of the solar disk above Ankenaton’s head, little arms with hands reaching out from A Sun (or Shiva), you choose…

Our traumas reach out constantly for reconciliation; we can either put something nutritious in that hand or bend it over and bring our ‘rule(er)’ over its holy palm reader’s map…

See, will coyote, I was measuring all the time and making damn sure everyone knew about how unjustified I felt about the surprises I got when the self-retractable-measuring-tape would just unlock itself and go back inside its shell: it’s Ok though, the shell I carried on my back while in the fellowship has allot more initials painted on it than those of Robert and my ‘friends in affirmation’ (though our hearts can and do these days slowly meet)…

I lost the relativity (did I really ever have it enough not to have lost it?) of my biggest project outside my nature and that was tending to that Nature who gave birth to me, the individuals who Fate itself gently put round my neck two lockets, one with my mother’s face and a clear mirror and the other, my father’s face and a clear mirror… (not to mention the ancestrally inherited bents and moods) (IMO).

One of the kitchen oddities I witnessed that ‘threw me’, was that the fellowship had started mixing Hope with the practicality of telling the truth concerning your moment, right here and now, the concerns of hypocrisy and contradictions showing themselves outside ourselves via Oregon House…

At that stage, I was too naive to see that I was investing in a ‘No Soliciting’ sign tacked on my heart by my inner hypocritical critic; and with this, I subconsciously reacted and followed the flow, towards a horizon thinking the world was flat and that I’d find some peace in hanging my feet over its edge; well, you can guess where that gets such a journeyman…

It’s strange; though there was definitely something inside me that resisted being a ‘baby’ and instead played ‘dress up’ for a long time: one of the truths of the matter, for me, was that religious Hope had covered over “The Terror of the Situation”: we had glimpses of it, though talked too much… That’s normal though; the striving reasonableness and personalableness of ‘True Personality’ was the Monk’s Way; curiously enough, IMO, our version of the fourth way had every other way in it, except the fourth; at least, so far as the choppiness of its form and vacillating back and forth so much (Being present to confusion had become a way of life and not love; for me.)

Maybe if a version of the fourth way doesn’t include in its form a graduation and reconciliation, then it’s a wish with no being (being) set to answer the ‘coming true’ with gratitude and conscious responsible ownership of the star (?) (Or isn’t it? Happening right here on this blog?)…

For me, the chance to be responsible is today; and today I just can’t see any reason to have a system that prays for better prayers, inside me. The ‘Theory of Next Time you’ll be a Man#7″, shored this up for many; possibly crystallizing deeper what already had brought them into a dysfunctional family filled with hope of ‘getting over it’ (and many of us are doing this, BTW)… So, IMO, no one losses by being in the fellowship: something in us gets desperate and pissed off that they’re still in, though, IMO, I myself (this time last year) was under the illusion that my time-line is yours, this is simply and utterly not true… We may have been created equal so far as having the same human equipment at our soul’s disposal, though our growth and being-time is a way funky def jam that not everyone dances to, including certain celestial record-scratchers.

As a friend, I’d say ~

Find heart and good food for your presence and stay away from promises from the intellect and hope in affirmative gestures that are said to ‘please the gods’ where they never actually confirm it with a similar feeling in your conscience as a reciprocal fortune got in return…

Wine can only go so far into buffering the bruises on our butts for having slipped in our own cow pasture last night while tipping ourselves over by being spooked with the flashlight of expectations and fear of loosing that umbilical cord we sometimes use as a lasso to hog-tie ourselves; then there’s the buffering of the wine… I’ve never seen a bull trying to break up a fight between two clowns.

To me, it’s better these days to fail utterly at being what I think is ‘right’, than to feel ‘right’ about failing at being me.

IMO, the ‘presents’ I gave to C-Influence have not been unwrapped; and the Christmas Tree their sitting under is Me.

Find Heart.

________

L.t.y.a.

67. unoanimo - August 31, 2008

will coyote ~

Thank you for the inspiration, very much…

68. brucelevy - August 31, 2008

65. Reality Check

I wasn’t trying to protect WR is any way. In fact I didn’t even register who you wrote your post to. I just read the post. WR can take care of himself. What I said to you was for you, completely independent of the people you address. I tried to give you something (which is what virtually all YOUR posts attempt to do with others). You turned it into something else. I was making a point about you. Sorry to have wasted both of our time.

69. Reality Check - August 31, 2008

68. brucelevy – August 31, 2008
65. Reality Check

I wasn’t trying to protect WR is any way. In fact I didn’t even register who you wrote your post to. I just read the post. WR can take care of himself. What I said to you was for you, completely independent of the people you address. I tried to give you something (which is what virtually all YOUR posts attempt to do with others). You turned it into something else. I was making a point about you. Sorry to have wasted both of our time.

***

Everyone suffers from psychological compartmentalization and most of us are not surprised when we witness it in others or ourselves. I seriously believe that you would be surprised to witness it in yourself. I say that because you often post with the voice of outraged indignation at the lack of morality (or self-knowledge) in others, there is a definite self-righteousness operating the organization of your compartments. I only mention it because you take a lot space on the blog outraged at the lack of quality in others. In your case there are few if any neutral observations that do not involve the negative judgment of others.

(I’ve gone over this paragraph a several times and I hope this one is not riddled with typing errors.)

70. Rear View Mirror - August 31, 2008

The following excerpts are from a web article titled, “The Critical Gap: Spin, Out of Control”. I found the article interesting as it relates to the FOF, the blog, the presidential election, and the mass media. I’m not sure I agree with all of the conclusions, but I thought some of the readers here might find it interesting…

http://www.metanexus.net/magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/9694/Default.aspx

——
Crazy leaders need followers, which also seem in limitless supply. Here we see another growing defense gap. A critical gap; a gap in critical thinking skills that is growing not because we are getting more gullible but because the spin is getting so persuasive. Con artists are evolving more rapidly than their marks. People’s capacity to resist the powers of persuasion aren’t keeping pace with advances in spin, rhetoric, and propaganda techniques. There’s a sucker born every minute—but a good spin technique lives forever. No matter how skeptical you get, you just can’t keep up.

As I see it, spin is anything meant to imply meaning where meaning isn’t. Spin is contrived pseudo-significance: a false positive (saying yes when the correct answer is no) on the question “Is this meaningful?”

——–
… As far back as Socrates, spin was cause for concern. Through Plato we hear Socrates criticize the Sophists, Athenian spin-doctors for hire. Sophists taught rhetoric—how to spin one’s preferred argument. They didn’t teach how to decide which argument was preferable, and that bothered Socrates. Athens was a democracy. We hear Socrates arguing against the democracy’s moral relativism, insisting that absolute moral truths exist and can be divined if one goes about the divination in the right way. Indeed, correct divination would allow us all to discover the same moral truths—truths as absolute and universal as the laws of geometry.

Socrates’ early attempt to close the critical gap didn’t work out so well. Some of his most attentive students, including Plato’s own cousin, formed a tyrannically anti-democratic government, slaughtered most of the democracy’s leaders, and took their property. Exiled democrats fought back and the democracy was restored. Some scholars today believe that Socrates was sentenced to death in part for his role as guru to the tyrants — tyrants who, like all tyrants, were certain they had discovered absolute universal truths they should impose upon others.

Our constitutional right to freedom of speech stems from a wariness of efforts to give the power of spin to a designated few who are certain they’ve got it right…

—–
Spin can’t be regulated because it is so subtle and so often useful. The Sophists were right. No one has yet found Socrates’ dream method that would enable us all to agree on morals and virtues. Short of that we are best off sustaining a democratic forum in which all arguments can be heard and all arguments have access to state-of-the-art spin techniques…

71. brucelevy - August 31, 2008

69. Reality Check

Thank you, I’ll think about that.

72. Reality Check - August 31, 2008

So anyway, back to the pretty good point I was trying to make to those still receiving the divine instruction of a self-promoted man number seven:

19. Reality Check – August 30, 2008

Thoughts from Ouspensky:

“Real knowledge, objective knowledge is knowledge which comes from higher mind.”

“If we meet people of a higher level, we shall not recognize their being, but we can recognize their knowledge; we know the limits of our knowledge, so we can see when somebody knows more than we do.”

“We can ask ourselves: was it invented on the same level as ours or on a different level?”

Robert Burton: This is what Epictetus meant when he said: “Show me the charm that will defeat death.” The charm is the sequence. Show me the sequential charm that will defeat death.
In Degas’ painting, Dancers, Green and Pink, the lower self is intestinal figure with a protruding stomach concealed behind the column. The two dancers in the back represent short Be and long Be – Isis and Nephthys – while the four dancers in the center, forming a square, represent Theme, Back, Theme, and Be. On the far right the seventh dancer – seventh heaven – is passing outside of time with four fingers. The nine of hearts has delivered a sequence to the third eye, and the third eye is maintaining its grip on the four wordless breaths, in spite of the efforts of the lower self to disrupt it.

***

Is this the teaching of higher mind or the predictable ravings of a deranged man number 2?

It seems clearly the rambling of someone with a center of gravity in the appreciation of art and B influence, someone with a magnetic center, but without much genuine higher perception of his own. Is this level of teaching really worth the price and is it really helping with the development of self-consciousness? Is this something that reasonable people would hold up as ‘higher mind’?

Let’s see if we can try and avoid negating my point of view here by obscuring it with a lot back-biting and ego wrestling.

73. elena - August 31, 2008

There was a concert last night here in Oregon House and people were so beautiful. The musicians too talked and told us what they valued about the pieces which was very helpful. There were over fifty of us and it is the most beautiful event I’ve been to related to the Fellowship. People were just sharing. Feeling each other for the first time without the constraints of having to be making effort to look like we were working. People who I had never heard talk about themselves or their experiences talked gently. The place was beautiful, the afternoon generous and the music was kind.

So good to be together after decades of being in the same place without sharing.

Will Coyote, From the little I understand you, that Cult of yours is worth throwing out the window like we’ve been doing with ours. Dog-ma trying to convince you you have to pay for what you already are if you just trust yourself.

Paul, photographed earlier that I did it again: don’t read me if you don’t appreciate it! Is that what people mean by being defensive? That’s what I mean by trying not to be a weight! It’s so good to see it, I might still have twenty or thirty years to live without it!

74. whalerider - September 1, 2008

Reality Check to brucelevy:

“…there is a definite self-righteousness operating (within) the organization of your compartments. I only mention it because you take a lot space on the blog outraged at the lack of quality in others. In your case there are few if any neutral observations that do not involve the negative judgment of others.”

Those in glass houses shouldn’t throw around toaster ovens.

*********

If you would like the majority of us here whom aren’t “still receiving the divine instruction of a self-promoted man number seven” to simply ignore you, you might want to make that clear. It would save the majority of us here a lot of angst.

Maybe you are right, those still mired in the FOF may want to reread the Ouspensky quotes (against their leader’s advice) that you so willingly provide, to better understand how their leader has lead them astray from the reasons they joined in the first place.

Then again, some of us, myself included, feel Ouspensky is outdated B-influence and have taken to heart his instruction at the end of his life:

“Abandon the system” (i.e. it doesn’t work)

Apparently you are implying the system does somehow work for you, although you have not come out and said so; we are supposed to gather that from the high level of knowledge in your posts, notwithstanding that you have admitted that you have failed to master the non-expression of your negative emotions after so many years of faithful study and several exposures to different fourth way groups…

OK, so the FOF is corrupt and the leader is deranged. So what? It just proves that eventually everything becomes its opposite.

Time to move on.

The question remains, shall the FOF sheep remain sheep and be helped to follow another shepard like lemmings to the cliff’s edge…or shall those newly liberated from mental bondage be helped by us to realize that in fact they have only been hypnotized to think they are sheep (which they are not) and start to become free agents of their own destiny?

Cuz if the fourth way ain’t working for you and didn’t work for Ouspensky, rereading it isn’t going to change anything but lead everyone astray again…away from themselves.

The concept of “being present” is now mainstream, reality check, it’s called “mindfulness”. It’s even taught in hospitals for stress management, goodness sake. You wouldn’t believe how many times I heard my professors speak of being present when I went to college post-FOF. I was so shocked! I had to crawl through shit to hear the same idea!

And so IMHO the work is not to make that idea stick in your head anymore, it’s already there. The work now is how to make this planet a better place for our children…by thinking globally and acting locally. School is out. Connectivity is in. It’s time to BE adults and take responsibility.

Now what makes you think thoughts like these are not from a higher mind along with the archiac dogma you read in books? OK, you got the law of seven, you got the law of octaves, you got the three forces in nature…the seven processes, the body types, the centers of gravity…what else are you waiting for…the law of how to win the lottery?

The only cataclysm pending is that we do nothing with the knowledge for which we have so dearly paid.

(Pardon any typos, I am dyslexic.)

75. paulshabram - September 1, 2008

elena 73
I read it and I appreciated it.

I didn’t find you previous posts to be particularly defensive or offensive.

I see the world from my point of view and you from yours. I get a lot out of trying to see it from your POV, and little out of trying to get you to see it from mine. I lay out my views and offer them in exchange for the views of others. It’s been a favorable barter on this blog since I have taken in far more than I have given out.

76. Reality Check - September 1, 2008

74. whalerider – September 1, 2008

“If you would like the majority of us here…”

The first symptom of personality (as opposed to a less contrived and therefore freer psychological nature) is that it automatically assumes that it is somehow in the majority and even presumes to speak for the majority.

“Now what makes you think thoughts like these are not from a higher mind…”

The demandingly habitual personality that was forged out of the social pressure of falsity, the defensive personality that began to develop when the teasing of the playground attacked anything that stood out as dissimilar to the dictatorial severity of unoriginal mediocrity, can never know itself much less comprehend anything original in nature because it is itself a synthetic construction contained in an artificial compartment of the mind. It can never see beyond the false world of limited and foreshortened emotional horizons where the power of brutal judgment and the need to belong within the protective cult of the common denominator of a presumed crowd agreement reigns. Only if suddenly struck by the luck of some emancipating adversity will a man be made to see himself trapped with everyone else in this stale atmosphere created initially from pushes and shoves, from sneers, from rejections and the subsequent defensive clumping of similar creatures wearing and expressing the same exterior markings. Otherwise there is no possibility of ever stepping clear of the enforced fascination that is caught forever on the words issuing from the minds of collective traders so invested in one another that they imagine there exists no landscape beyond the range of their voices. As long as a socialized product of the opinion of everyone else imagines that it is always of the same voice, always of the same mind, always the same reliable character then it will never see outside itself into a mind of higher discernment. –Dr. Van Nostrand

77. Rear View Mirror - September 1, 2008

I’d Better Stay

If I leave with love in my heart,
Others may say that I leave
Out of hatred.
I’d better stay.

To experience the divine
And to grow spiritually,
I must place my identity
In one set of ideas.
The world is filled with countless ideas.
I’d better stay.

If I focus on anything negative
Outside of myself,
Others will say I’m not seeing the negative
Within myself.
I’d better stay.

If I leave, my words may be met with criticism.
If I stay, I can recite the
Accepted words
And enjoy harmony and agreement.
I’d better stay.

My truest, closest, dearest,
And most loyal friends
Are here.
If I leave, I will lose them.
I’d better stay.

If I leave, I must find my own connection
To the divine from within my soul.
If I stay, someone can reassure me
That I have such a connection.
I’d better stay.

Maybe I didn’t do enough.
Maybe I’m wrong.
I’d better stay.

Others will say they knew that I’d leave.
I’d better stay.

There’s a strength within me
That I can take with me wherever I go,
But others will say that I am weak.
I’d better stay.

I leave with love in my heart,
But… finally…
No. The word No.
I just leave with love in my heart.
I’d better stay no more.

78. whalerider - September 1, 2008

Reality Check:
“…automatically assumes that it is somehow in the majority and even presumes to speak for the majority”.

You’d do well to hit the automatic Page Up button a few times and do a little reality checking on yourself.

“…always of the same voice, always of the same mind, always the same reliable character then it will never see outside itself into a mind of higher discernment.”

That’s exactly my point, Kramer.

By reading and quoting Mr. O, the voice never changes, the character remains static, and the knowledge never adapts to the changing times, the present. There is no revision or creative improvisation, the hallmark of higher centers. A book can “never know itself” either.

Remember that high quality B-influence, if you are in the market for some, is designed to lead to a living, conscious source, not a ‘dead’ end.

***********

Rear View Mirror:
The blog needs you more than you need the blog. That’s a good place to be. Thanks for being here with us.

79. will coyote - September 1, 2008

Per LauraLupa :Il testo in italiano lo trovi qui:http://www.cesap.net/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=34&func=view&id=3384&catid=32&limit=6&limitstart=24
Il sito é il cesap; forum Patrizio Paoletti; topic Testimonianza;
For English people: Thank you, sorry I have made computer translation: is very bad. Thank you
Did you have spoken before in some part of the blog (it s very big!) on payment in the 4° way ?

80. lauralupa - September 1, 2008

My4bits, in case you are still around, good luck on your journey.
One more song for the open road

81. Rear View Mirror - September 1, 2008

Will Coyote,
I don’t know what lauralupa wrote about “payment in the Fourth Way” ….But one quick comment or two… “Payment” isn’t an idea exclusive to the Fourth Way, as though the rest of the masses have no idea about the need to pay.

The key: Be willing to pay in ways where no one notices, where it is not on display for others, where the item you purchase is not the appearance of some sort of wisdom, or where there is some sort of victory or superiority over others in attaining this thing that you purchase.

And most importantly in regard to the Fellowship of Friends and Robert Earl Burton… As they say with any purchase you make in this world, “Buyer Beware.”

—–

Always a pleasure, Whalerider. And likewise to you.

82. unoanimo - September 1, 2008

Hello Reality Check ~

It sounds like Dr. Van Nostrand had a definite soul-crisis here, similar to Nietzsche I would guess or Kant or Goethe (He was really pissed that his design for the new theater/concert hall wasn’t accepted and consequentially stated “I am no longer a friend of the people”.) Rilke got P.O’ed too after he realized that showers are simply not the same when you’re soap is in the box you’re standing on to reach to faucet; and that ‘Workman’s Letter’ pretty much says it all, so far as being a lone cow on the horizon.

I feel it’s ok to be a Hathor, so long as you don’t forget your Sun and Cobra in the glove compartment box… For me Ouspensky’s ideas will never be outdated because their not his ideas, nor are they Gurdjieff’s: it’s sorta weird that we’re going on about G & O as if they failed or the ‘system’ failed; the only system (IMO) is you in the context to the ideas, plain and simple: the ideas, very much like shamanistic tools and helper totems/spirits are bulletproof, they do not fail at being themselves utterly; it’s the guy that doesn’t have a cookbook and the appropriate ingredients yet who cannot make a Cajun dinner; though the ‘Dinner’ itself exists in real time because it’s been created and that’s that, pretty much.

To me, the system worked for Ouspensky because he was ‘It’, i.e., the system alive, in a ‘real’ Yes/No human space, pulsating with Time, subjectivity and enduring its multitude’s of objective dances on his striving soul… It was most likely very humiliating for Ouspensky to admit the failure of the system and to request his students abandon it; though, really, I think he had a nervous breakdown and was saying nearly the exact same thing as one of G’s teachers advised him to say when he was experiencing a mental melt down, i.e., “To leave all those who make you feel comfortable.” (something like this).

IMO, O. was saying, ‘[I] have failed, [I] was mistaken for [I], abandon the ‘Me’ I’ve influenced you with and leave this comfort in Me. Meher Baba would often ‘tell’ his students after they said “I love you Baba.” ‘You do not love Baba, you love loving Baba.’

If the system ideas are not working, then there’s something in you that’s not working and it has nothing to do with the ingredients themselves; at least this is what I have learned in the part 7 months… IMO, there’s an emotional ‘si-do’ in all of us that we cannot always see (though it’s a sun rising): conscious empathy or “Remorse of Conscience” was highly underestimated in the fellowship and rightly so; if it existed as a real force, (and practiced for what it implies when you’re experiencing it), Oregon House would glow phosphorescent at night and indeed, it would become what Robert dreamed of… IMO, in the end, everything we’ve collected to try and be ourselves utterly falls at our feet (like Gravity being turned ‘Off’) and we’re left with a vacuum of what we really are without the Left Brain reinforcements of Hope and identity of being a Striving gold miner… When the gold miner turns into gold, well, now he’s in for it!

Onwards… The frustration with the ‘system’ is frustration with the human ‘system’ trying to gather all these ideas together as ‘One’ and make them a Path, as if a forest is a forest and not a planet of individuals (?) Ouspensky graduated (IMO) from his left brain striving and submerged himself in the inevitable result of ‘the system’ (like the human body’s system does every day, with or without our conscious permission), the living of the life of Death’s birth, i.e., the Art (or Craft) of Dying.

I will be forever grateful for these two beings (G & O) and whoever did bring those ideas ‘Down to Earth’, though will try not to have this gratefulness turn into a Golden Calf; they have their place in my heart, my soul is another matter that’s not their business.

Here’s to not being Unemployed on Labor Day.

:.)

83. Reality Check - September 1, 2008

78. whalerider – September 1, 2008

“There is no revision or creative improvisation, the hallmark of higher centers.”

***

Each has his own lackluster standard for what he imagines constitutes creative improvisation in himself, while each is blind to the improvisation of others. –Dr. Van Nostrand

84. lauralupa - September 1, 2008

will coyote,
after having done a little research, to me this Patrizio Paoletti guy seems just another money-grabbing, brain-washing fake teacher, one of many unfortunate offsprings of the “just trust your guru” fourth way tradition. He is quite similar to Robert Burton, in fact, with his 10% donations and extra payments, weird exercises and bookmarking practices. I’d be curious to know if he ever was a member of the FoF. Hopefully, at least he is not into sex with his followers.

Hve you already looked at the italian blog of ex-fellowship students at:
http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ ?

in bocca al lupo!

85. elena - September 1, 2008

Paul: “But the moniker “positive” or “negative”, I feel, are meant to imply objective terms. Following the System’s (artificial) stratification, what list of positive emotions can you come up with that match levels with the ones listed by Ouspensky (”…means all emotions of violence or depression: self-pity, anger, suspicion, fear, annoyance, boredom, mistrust, jealousy and so on.” )? Doesn’t the System stratify the complimentary positive emotions (if they exist) as more like constructive? Why does Ouspensky leave out constructive negative emotions in the description of human evolutionary psychology? Maybe Ouspensky treats this subject in a “formatory” way because it appeals to the part of us that prefers not to think critically.”

Thanks Paul for your openness. It is in itself healing. I felt shame in thinking you feel that I do not receive you with as much openness but hopefully we can agree on the fact that a dialogue is about enhancing each other’s cosmos while continuing to meet for tea!

My previous post was already so long I did not want to expand on the last part of yours but if you give me the opportunity I would like to continue to explore it.

When I came across positive emotions I was very surprised that there were very few of them. I had some expectation that there’d be more of them but I didn’t come across them at the time. Maybe one day I’ll find more. I’m actually talking about experiences that took place sixteen, seventeen years ago when I joined the Fellowship. The more time I spent in the Fellowship the less “higher states” I was able to experience, spending most of my time separating from the suffering of being convinced that I was just not good enough, didn’t make enough efforts. But the Fellowship apart, when I came to experience some positive emotions, there were very few of them and they seemed to “belong” to one another. I think the first one was gratitude. After months of intense work on trying to be permanently present and not express negative emotions, a sense of gratitude invaded the world. Not me but the world. As if it could be “breathed” in the air developing into grace.
The fact that we are in a world in which we can experience infinite grace or infinite horror, convinced me that both heaven and hell, as we’ve traditionally understood them, just depend on our own state, which does not mean that if we are in a state of grace, there aren’t horrors happening around us. Rather that we deal with them gracefully. In a state of grace it is possible to understand that the horrors we are witnessing are the result of our level of being and when there is no judgment about the level of being then instead of buffering the experience with a negative emotion against the person or people presenting the horror, the person is able to witness and incorporate the horror into his or her presence and carry it for those who cannot. This is probably what “saints” do and have been doing long before our time. As you can see from the blog it is far from being my condition but every one of us has at different times of our lives been both saints and criminals even if we never belonged to a System of Inner Education.

For there to “not have any judgments about the level of being” of other people, the individual needs to have come to a place of “equality” with other human beings. This has been the real difficulty for me. To be able to hold that understanding indefinitely, practice it and experience it. “Equality” is not really the word because even in equality with others there is a separation from others and what is really needed is the “being COM penetration” with the fact that we are just one being and that that person over there committing a crime is also “I”. When we know this, we cannot hurt the person committing the crime even if we stop them, put them in jail and re-educate him. The dialogue between a community and an individual is in fact, the dialogue between the many “I”s and real I. For the conscious being, the community is the sum total of his or her consciousness and life is the stage in which it develops itself.

The treatment of negative emotions is very different to the understanding of suffering. Negative emotions, as the source of disconnectedness amongst people who live in the fear that there is not enough pie for everyone is the illusion of animal behavior in humans. If we trusted each other’s dignity so faithfully that we knew that no matter how small the pie is, we would have the being to share it, we would not be trying to grab it away from each other and wasting most of it in the quarrel. Happiness is infinite trust.
But one can only trust someone who would not do to us what he or she would not do to themselves and we live in a time in which people’s well being cannot even be trusted to them; Cults are the extreme point of the spectrum of this reality.

This is already long. I’ll come back to it tomorrow if I may. I thank you for giving me the oportunity to share these things that to me belong to the Fellowship of Friends to whom I was connected to when I was able to experience them. They of course really belong to the Public Square for they are no body’s private property as “life” is free: a “gift”. Thank you for your time.

86. Yesri Baba - September 1, 2008

76. Reality Check – September 1, 2008
74. whalerider – September 1, 2008

“If you would like the majority of us here…”

The first symptom of personality (as opposed to a less contrived and therefore freer psychological nature) is that it automatically assumes that it is somehow in the majority and even presumes to speak for the majority.

——————-

A fine example of ‘Spin’. Here we have someone taking a portion of a statement out of context (It is obviously true that the majority posting on the blog aren’t “still receiving the divine instruction of a self-promoted man number seven” ) and spinning it into an attack and giving rise to an inevitable projection of hyperbolic vomit.

87. arthur - September 1, 2008

Unoanimo (82),

That was a pretty good ‘job’ improvising on Labor Day.

Grateful for (G&O)–Yes!!

In my ‘instinctive’ opinion. Shrimp Gumbo Cajun style stinks to high heaven. At least the one I ‘smelled’ cooking did.

88. Across the River - September 1, 2008

RC, do as you will. I’m sure you have many quotes from many kings of the mountain and are proud of the one’s you’ve formulated, too.

The “majority” here is looking for connection with you, that’s all.

89. Reality Check - September 1, 2008

85. Yesri Baba – September 1, 2008

“…inevitable projection of hyperbolic vomit.”

27. Yesri Baba – August 30, 2008

“Always already ever present awareness (witness) is always already occuring in everybody all the time. The purpose of spiritual practice and disciplines is is to ‘awaken’ this always already awareness, cause this awareness to become aware of itself if you will (3rd state) (I am going to assume most reading this are following this and know what I am talking about). This sustained always already awareness aware of itself is the ‘highest’ ’state’ there is.
This is the point where everything goes wrong and fantastical wacked out thinking takes over and fucks everything up. Our knuckleheads think that this 3rd state present awareness is ‘higher’ so therefore the 4th stste must be ‘higher’ still. We imagine merging with some higher mind receiving the secret knowledge of the universe while cruising the galaxies at the speed of light- horseshit.
The 4th state is coming back down.”

***

Is this the quality of insight one can expect from the fourth state of consciousness?

90. You-me-us-they - September 1, 2008
91. Yesri Baba - September 1, 2008

88

“Is this the quality of insight one can expect from the fourth state of consciousness?”

You betcha shithead.

92. arthur - September 2, 2008

A question for the Italians and Spaniards: I use olive oil. Several months back I read about an olive oil scandal where tanker loads of olive oil where being shipped to a northern European country to be mixed with “chestnut or other oils”.
I never heard the conclusion of the scandal.

My grocery store is not well stocked in olive oils. And, I can’t tell whether they are “virgin” or have been had by “chest-nuts”.

I wonder if the Fellowship of Friends operated by Robert Earl Burton have “virgins” in their midst. Rather is their olive oil production “virgin”?

And, what is the name of Robert Burton’s “virgin” olive oil?

93. Reality Check - September 2, 2008

90. Yesri Baba – September 1, 2008

88:

‘Is this the quality of insight one can expect from the fourth state of consciousness?’

“You betcha shithead.”

***

Just checking:

(Click on the name link for related music)

94. whalerider - September 2, 2008

Reality Check:
You think I was blind to the innuendo with your Kramer improv riff.

I got it.

I could feel that you made a creative effort in a backhanded way, thank you…

It just didn’t take me anywhere useful; I regressed into feelings of self-deprecation and self-doubt…for about the three seconds it took to read it.

I let myself feel that way in order to get a sense of what you must feel inside. Yuck!

Across the River:
Borderline personality style has great difficulty establishing and maintaining healthy relationships with people. The person afflicted cannot “connect” (or even dialog) with others especially those close to them. Inwardly they feel a huge inner deficit and in order to preserve a semblance of inner harmony, they attempt to manipulate anyone around them to feel their feelings, so they don’t have to.

Reality Check claimed I was suffering from a mental problem and for others to ignore me.

I say everyone needs to pay very, very close attention to everything he says, if you so desire.

Then ask yourself, “how does what he says make me feel?”

Then feed that back to him, without calling him names. Just stick with how it made you feel.

Anyone is welcome to do the same with my posts. BTW, KathleenW, how did RC’s commentary on your post “From the Mouths of Babes” make you feel? Yesri?

I felt he and I connected briefly when he shared that memory of us meeting on the street, for which I was grateful and thanked him. Then he went on the attack again from his withering heights with someone else and the game of fourth way oneupmanship continues…

I feel his strong dedication to his cause and yet he is operating under the illusion that he is raising your consciousness by devaluing you and revealing your “false personality”, like nobody around him is allowed to drop their guard nor bare their teeth nor disagree with him.

The unhealthy part is that he doesn’t ever seek to repair the damage he has done. We are all just supposed to cower, shut up, nod our heads in silent agreement, and be stuck feeling bad about ourselves.

That’s not the way I choose to live my life.

Robert is an expert at the same technique.

95. Reality Check - September 2, 2008

93. whalerider – September 2, 2008

At the risk of making you feel something that you don’t want to feel I nevertheless have to let you know this without equivocation: you take yourself far too seriously to be normal.

96. You-me-us-they - September 2, 2008

On: how does that make me feel?

Hello Whalerider,
I experienced the same wave of connectiveness for a while, when it was there and it was great!

Hello reality Check:
Did you experience a moment of conncectiveness too ?
How did that make you feel?

97. You-me-us-they - September 2, 2008

Until one is committed
There is hesitancy, the chance to draw back
Always ineffectiveness.

Concerning all acts of initiative (and Creation)
There is one elementary truth
The ignorance which kills countless ideas and splendid plans:

That the moment that one definitely commits ones self
Then Providence moves too.

All sorts of things occur to help one
That would never otherwise have occurred.

A whole stream of events issues from the decision
Raising in one’s favor all manner
Of unforeseen incidents and meetings
And material substance
Which no one could have dreamt
Would have come your way.

Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.

GOETHE

I am suspicious of people fighting “a war”, the “against” spirits…
(ex, the man on the video clip on the Buddha shit).
They add to the problem, with their focussing almost exclusively on the negativitye, than they offer assistance and resolution tools.
They lack the “magic” !

In trying to become angel, man transforms himself into beast, wrote Michel de Montaigne.

I benefit from Goethe’s view because it stresses the intention (commitment to what you want to create) as being the way “it is done” the way “action” occurs.
“All sorts of things occur to help one
That would never otherwise have occurred.”
Magic!

98. Reality Check - September 2, 2008

It appears you’ve already put me on moderated status?

99. unoanimo - September 2, 2008

Hello Whalerider ~

How did it make me feel? Your note to Reality Check brought me a picture and not a feeling; the picture was ~

There are two people located in the foothills surrounding a desert: one is on one range and the other is on the second one, in between these mountain ranges is that desert, this place has no vegetation, though living ‘things’ thrive there: both ‘men’ have binoculars and a large mirror to signal one another… One man’s position can see as far as the middle of that desert, covering exactly 50% of its terrain, while the other man completes the 100% ‘picture of things’… Each man (with his 50%) has some information that the other needs so they can meet one another safely in the middle and board a vehicle waiting for them to escape this circumstance of desperation and thirst: every day each man simultaneously wants to be first and so, sends the other his mirror-signals… With this method, what each man receives is the reflection of their own signaling sent back, day after day; while the ‘original’ message each has to offer the other dances in between two mirrors, warming and hatching more desert and ‘things’.

—————-

Hello Arthur ~

“In my ‘instinctive’ opinion. Shrimp Gumbo Cajun style stinks to high heaven. At least the one I ’smelled’ cooking did.”
——-

Yes, but did you taste it? What you were smelling was the crayfish exoskeleton I believe: I know it can stink, though the taste is far from its molecular exhaust… It’s weird, but true. Maybe we’ll meet someday, purchase a gumbo propane cooking-kit and chef-up, have a Cajun block party (I’ll cook).

Love to you all.

100. whalerider - September 2, 2008

Reality Check:

What, you think I have sitting around picking at my scabs for the past 23 years?

Oh no, I have been very, very busy.

And yes, as you can telI, I take myself seriously.

If I don’t, who will?

I am the person I know the best.

How about you?

I can tell you take Ouspensky seriously, but he’s dead.

I am so over the MTV clips on this blog. Stay tuned!

101. whalerider - September 2, 2008

Reality Check:
It’s not me putting you on moderated status, if that’s what you are asking. Honestly.

We must be heating up the place.

I am the other guy with the mirror on the opposite side of the canyon sending signals across the desert. (Light can travel immense distances.) Please hold onto yourself, no name calling, no unmasking.

If you have to go and stop your signalling, then the arc between us disappears. There’s lots more to be done. We’ve come a long way already.

102. Reality Check - September 2, 2008

Test. Having posting problems.

103. Reality Check - September 2, 2008

Posting this again. For some reason it is getting caught in the filter. fofblogmoderator please delete the other copies.

I’m getting email from the fofblogmoderator mentioning the words Xcensor, Xdelete and Xban over, as far as I can make out, hurting whalerider’s feelings. The moderator is a decent guy but he’s getting pressure from complainers. So maybe I’ll just leave you with this:

http://www.geocities.com/gwgoodwin/four2002.html

104. Yesri Baba - September 2, 2008

92 rc

FYI what the gentleman in the video was slobbering about is Theravatan (first turning) Buddhism, roughly speaking, escaping into ‘causal’ formlessness (nirvana). Many of his valid criticisms are addressed in Vashryana (second turning) and Mahayana (third turning) evolutions of Buddhism. Roughly speaking, coming back into and working fully with the relative world of form.

Not sure about the spellings.

105. Yesri Baba - September 2, 2008

89 ymut

Thanks for the ‘Hugs’ video.

106. lauralupa - September 2, 2008

Reality Check 102
There are a lot of ideas in the writing in your link I strongly disagree with, but this in particular strikes me as interesting and peculiar:

“To generate the third state of consciousness the practitioner has to put himself in problematic positions in relation to the crowd, the initiate must eventually find himself with the finger of social disapproval pointed directly at him.”

So is this really what it’s all about?
The permanent tendency to create havoc in your relationship to the people here results from your personal effort to create a third state of consciousness in yourself? (I notice that you call others “the crowd”, is this how you visualize the contributors on this blog also?)
Aside from theory, has this technique brought you positive results so far?
Are you able to generate the third state you desire so much by using as a trigger these disharmonious interactions?

107. nigel harris price - September 2, 2008

Have ‘quit the shit’ for a while until my computer is built, post-virus from ‘ground zero’ by my friend, Duncan. Should be back on line Friday, but am operating mailman and clueing in blog via library.

To conclude:-

“The cosmic tumblers have clicked into place” Terence Mann (Field of Dreams). Ultimately, absolutely, universally…..Nigel.

108. fofblogmoderator - September 2, 2008

84 is newly moderated.

#103 Reality Check-
When I write you in private, I would appreciate you responding in private.

I am under no “pressure” from anyone here regarding you being censored or banned. My private comment to you was my own personal opinion which I feel is not appropriate to voice here while acting as moderator.

109. arthur - September 2, 2008

Unoanimo (99),

Not long ago Whalerider was talking about children and psychological memories.

I was talking one time with a co-director at my teaching house about some “incidents” that happened to me from birth to about age four. Her response was, “it sounds like your soul didnt want to be here”.

One of those incidents included falling into a well of some kind filled with broken glass. Some how I managed to crawl out myself.

Days before at dinner time I refused to eat fish. My brother-in-law a navy pilot took me into the bed-room and “whipped my butt”.

He also had to take me to the naval base to have my head stiched up, without being anesthetized. It took a lot of people to hold me down.

I’ve had a lot of trouble with ‘seafood’ since that time. I do like fried shrimp and scallops. And, I’ll eat fish every now and then but I can’t think about it.

Whether there is a psychological connection there I don’t know.

The shrimp gumbo was being cooked at a home in Louisana in honor of ‘us’ coming to visit. I managed not to eat it and avoided disappointing the cook.

Another childhood memory (age 8-10?): I loved to eat Oreo cookies for breakfast. One morning I got to the store before it opened. A man came up and asked me what time the store opened. I just shrugged my shoulders. He slapped me across the face as hard as he could and said, “when somebody ask you a question you answer them”

I’ve had trouble with that one up until this time.

110. Mick Danger - September 2, 2008

Rock & Roll Casuality List for September:
The One, The Only, Jimi Hendrix. (1970)
The Great Musical Loss of the Century.
Oh, what might have been.
Q: Who’s better Hendrix or Clapton?
A: Hendrix but Clapton’s had more time to practice.

111. elena - September 2, 2008

103 Greg

The text you present as Feminine Dominance appears as if it were from Ouspensky but obviously it is not. Is it yours? It clarifies a great deal of the mentality you are coming from. If you had simply said “I’m a mysoginist, fuck women” you would not have had to write such a long piece but the length and extent to which you present your mindframe with a structure that seems valid to you justifies your imaginary picture of your world and your self.

The greatest difficulty I see in it is that as a mysoginist you cannot ever find balance in life. It is a very different kind of mysoginy to Robert Burton’s and the Fellowship, it is a macho mysoginy in which you wish to over power women while for Robert, women simply weren’t worth mentioning, he just uses them as baits to get other men.

In you it is just painfully aggresive. Somewhere in your childhood someone must have humiliated you so badly that you’ve developed this attitude towards yourself. It did not necessarily have to be a woman, it could have been another powerful macho like you for whom women are little above objects.

I read two thirds of it only, because the madness of it bored me but in the first part it is worth mentioning that your interpretation of how the child is raised by women is distorting the other angle in which in a patriarchal society both children and women are under the dominance of the males. They are both under subjugation from the dominant alpha male behaving like a lion in a world in which no matter how kingly the lion might be, it has nothing to do with human behavior. It is the father’s authoritarian power over the women and children what we’ve been living under for 7.000 years of patriarchy and it is enforced by education, military, goverment structures of authority all ruled by masculine dominance. Hitler and all dictators are the epitomy of such ideology. This is to what it has brought us.

The need to balance ourselves away from such status quo seems beyond obvious not only for the well being of women and children but for the well being of men. Macho men suffer no less than the women they submit. Going around fighting other men to get to the women and being thoroughly unable to reach them once they’ve overpowered the other men is as unrewarding to the men as to the women. Extreme machoness is disappearing and that is perhaps one of the reasons you don’t seem to fit amongst the women or the men around here. Sexuality has much relaxed and men who were highly inhibited in the kind of world you picture as much as women, have much greater access to a healthier sexuality.

The whole mind-frame of the article you present is distorted. Would you be so kind to reveal the author? Initially I thought it was an Ouspensky piece and I was going to write to you thanking you for giving me the final blow to cut myself off from the Fourth Way as presented by Ouspensky but then realized the article was not Ouspensky’s. The interpretation of laws by Ouspensky and reformulation of them as Feminine Dominance I thought was Robert Burton’s and if it was or he took it from someone in this context there is nothing surprising about it, he is feeding his mysoginy just like you are but at the other end of the spectrum. If you have taken this idea from him and expanded on it to fit your extreme macho outlook it reveals a lot of why you subtly support the Fellowship of Friends telling people to assume responsibility for themselves and undermining the Fellowship’s responsibility. You are essentially very similar to Robert but at the other end of the spectrum. It is very interesting how we drive down this paths of our psychological lives. If you had the opportunity you would develop a society just like his but submit women instead of men.

Your whole text makes me feel very sorry for you. It is not just from someone who has been hurt, it is from someone who after having been badly hurt, has covered his wound with a full blown structure to justify and repeat the violence that was done to him on others.
Like Robert, it is so negatively charged, anyone that comes close to it, is in danger.

One can feel the energy on the blog already but I would not ban it yet, sick of it as I am in the hope that some of us and most of us will be able to recognize it for what it is, but if you and others here cannot help you balance yourself, I will at least be happy to leave.

I doubt you’d be interested but reading Character Analysis, The Mass Psychology of Fascism and The function of the Orgasm by Wilhelm Reich, could help you clarify many of the areas in which you’ve made the distortions. In fact, my impression is that you have knowledge of these theories and have simply adapted them to fit your thwarted psychology.

Hopefully you will not feel insulted by this post. Your psychology is definitely no different from that of my husband’s and a thousand other men who I’ve known, only few of them express it so extremely because as you say: “The times, they are a changing” (probably misspelled but you’ll understand that I just Span-gle most of the time.)

In Robert Burton you can see how masculinity has taken a pasive feminine form and in extreme machos, you can observe that it takes an aggressive over exagerated expression in which violence is enhanced as you do so in your article, stating that it is healthier in lower classes. So sad how you distort the theory here as much as reality because in lower classes, who are less conditioned by social norms, it is true that the capacity for a healthy human response to situations is greater but not so much in the sense of being more violent but in the sense of being more human. The social condition itself imposes that people help and work with each other to survive, the social cohesion is mandatory, while in the upper classes, people starve without asking for help because they’ve lost the community to fall back on. The capacity for violence amongst the lower classes has absolutely nothing to do with your T.V. series interpretation of gangsters, but with the fact that they are not physically or psychologically so “conditioned” that they will not react with firmness when confronted. This is related to what in the System we called essence. In relation to sexuality itself, the ability for satisfactory orgasms is not as thwarted in such individuals as in those whose balance has gone off to the extremes.

We live in a time in which most of us are extremely unbalanced so please do not feel that I am pointing you out from the rest. I would say you need a lot of help just as most of us who’ve been in the Fellowship need help because the Fellowship instilled a way of life that took the same life values that you’re stating as legitimate, turned them around to fit a mysoginist homosexual and made little sissys of most of the men, extreme machos of the few who could not bend in that direction and submitted women even more than regular society had already submitted us. I’m trying to recover my capacity to throw up which is what a healthy body does when sick in the hope that I can then follow with a healthier sexuality. After four years of a man who could not look at me, it is all rather bizarre.

What you are really expressing in your behavior and this article is the desperateness with which you cannot find satisfaction in your life. You attract a lot of abuse from other men here who seem to identify with your strategy and rejection from the women who find you threatning. For myself, I’m just awfully uninterested with the chapter and the excess of attention to such lowliness. It needs to be dealt with but hopefully we’ll move into happier, lighter areas of our being once we’ve done so if you have the willingness to.

112. unoanimo - September 2, 2008

Hello Arthur ~

Thank you for sharing. What the co-director said reminds me of my innocent pontificating when I first started making ‘connections’ with the system’s objective labels and my subjective intuitions, which I didn’t have words for (And still don’t, actually: leaving the fellowship revealed that the yard never really got raked and the grass just managed to grow on top of each season’s leaves)…

What she said is certainly a normal response from an ‘Us’ who felt that we were taking more responsibility for our incarnation by being present to its ups and downs and managing to struggle to label it and judge ourselves as ‘not finished yet’ (+) following the insatiable striving and expectations of our ‘father’ who could not help us marry the ‘woman’ within, get pregnant and give birth to our conscience: other ‘things’ were given instead… Fruitless practice makes a perfect beginning.

I have allot of foster children running around inside me at times, left over from portraits I remember from the fellowship: last night I had an incredible dream with my step-mother in it (this is a blue-moon-rarity), where I was explaining to her the possible reason she has a phobia of driving late at night…

Some dreams for me are Jungian (direct connection with the sub/unconscious), others answer prayers and ‘go’ (IMO) direct to the source of the ‘gray area’ and spends time with it (psyche to psyche)… That was one of those ‘house call dreams’.

You might try this ‘with’ the man who slapped you… Get a stack of printing paper, draw as many colored pictures of only him as you can, until you feel finished with it; tend to it as if it were a Diary given to you by the love of ‘his’ life: set a time every day to just ‘read it’ and be with it (Some lockets have a mirror opposite to their pictures.) See what happens and where you go with it…

I don’t know what happened to you recently; though on the blog a few Parts ago, there was some talk of an accident (?)… It seems that we’ve got that in common: mine started off by falling off a bridge into a dry stone creek, getting my wrist bitten to the bone by my Uncle’s dog, piano edge to the back of my skull, internal measles, broken arm, motorcycle accident, major operation and so on… I wonder if anyone’s ever given the Earth a purple heart medal? It’s a miracle that we’re here (as Jodorowsky says) and there’s a little worm in all of us that’s programmed to take this fact for granted (that’s kinda weird).

The fish thing: well, who knows… Something ayahuasca opened up in me was a communication route between my stomach and ‘feelings’, there’s was a disconnect there… These days I sense that my stomach is the ‘heart’ of my ‘spirit’, so far as certain emotional ‘helper energies’ go… Every organ has a mood and a crib which shares boarders with other ‘babies’ in there… We’re pregnant with a project that doesn’t always speak to us until it’s nearly underwater drowning (sometimes after it has died even)…

It’s tricky to follow sometimes: there’s stuff I used to eat and drink that I cannot anymore (It just doesn’t work)… To me, the ‘refusal’ to eat fish is a key; the punishment is your Uncle’s business… You got your way and had to pay for it, though even (in) the punishment your will or individuality still lived and grew a little, yes?

As a child, there was a ‘switch tree’ out back of my grandmother’s house which bloomed each Spring with thousands of yellow blossoms running all the way down the lengths of its linear branches… It was this tree where my grandmother would go to break off a switch, then, the around-the-house-chasing would begin… Sometimes I’d laugh and cry at the same time: it was funny to play dodge-my-body with my grandmother’s more ‘rigid’ framework; then my consciousness would settle back into my body and I’d feel the payment for this kind of ecstatic laughter ‘fishing’.

These days I don’t believe as deeply in this “It sounds like…” anymore coming from people (including my own mouth): we took allot of liberties (and rightly so; we did it in High School too) in the fellowship with one another (Practicing to be C-Influence?) (Getting groomed by our imaginary pictures of our supposed working relationship with our favorite affirmation or star and sponsored by lying and hypocrisies (The same is in me); though I prefer it ‘smaller’ and less courageously ignorant than before; people got mixed up in my subconscious shadow boxing: one rink, one person, one shadow, one cosmos and no referee. It’s all ‘good’ householder, though, for me it’s not what is ‘best’ if I really want to get to the roots off my nagging conscience and contradictions. Sometimes you have to bulldoze the ‘perfect house’ to reveal the lurking sink hole beneath it’s ‘perfect foundation’. I got that ‘sinking feeling’ allot in the fellowship… Quicksand is certainly quicker.

For me, I like to think of all these bumps & bruises as ‘celestial sculpting’: so long as my body is still alive, this is a part of my soul’s cathartic penitence (unconscious, conscious and subconscious)… Everyone needs to be here (wanting or not is a peculiar invention of my Left Brain). I liked Oreo cookies too: particularly the sacred ritual of twisting off the one black ‘cap’ to lift it off so to reveal the perfect cream circle of 200% sugar (imported from another solar system) underneath, then the slow disintegration of this by licking and the moist ‘cap’ underneath, opposed to the crunchier one I’d been holding in my left hand for the ‘checkered flag’ finale… It was all very Freudian-Oreo.

Yes: “when somebody ask you a question you answer them.” (IMO) It was the silent shrug that pushed his button; he wanted something from your voice and you had only silence… Silence is one of the most terrifying substances for the Painbody’s ‘presence’; it looks for the ‘mother finger/pointing finger’ so to gather ‘substance’ (drama shopping) or aka “The Advertising of Hell”; similar to war monuments and the Holocaust Museum… These (IMO) are alters of subconscious painbody worship: the promise of heaven and redemption without the inner accountability for the worshiper to match the affirmation’s wish with its condition of true-conscience.

Rumi was a master at showing how real angels change the diapers of demons and do not damn the already damning (That would be a waste of time.): (IMO) he was an absolute farmer of love.

Arthur, you’re everything and more by being here being it; we keep moving through the web that created the spider. You’re a great man and part owner to the title of this planet; people are themselves wanting to be you so to practice being themselves… Getting used to this phenomenon in myself is a daily chore: the Earth wants us… Sometimes I mistake this dream for the where I am not.

P.S. There’s also chicken and beef gumbo: so, either way, Gumbo can be the center of the universe-block-party.

Thank you again for sharing Arthur

L.t.y.a.

113. unoanimo - September 2, 2008

Greg,

Hang in there… The House of Mirrors is just a house and not the neighborhood.

114. arthur - September 2, 2008

Thank you very much unanimo.

115. arthur - September 2, 2008

Sorry for the missing O unoanimo.

116. paulshabram - September 2, 2008

elena 85
A very rich and complex post that signifies a kind of completeness. So when I pick out a line it is a different subject.

You said: “When I came across positive emotions I was very surprised that there were very few of them.” I strongly expected you would say that. I don’t know if this is a personality trait of the result of FOF influences, or both. The more real world experiences I have, the more I read this blog, and this conversation have left me questioning if positive emotions and negative emotions are really any different. There is a contextual element that cannot be ignored. If I experience glee, doesn’t it make a difference about what I feeling gleeful about? If I am gleeful about the weather that’s undoubtably a positive, but what if I were gleeful about someone’s misfortune?

117. Across the River - September 2, 2008

RC, I noticed the essay that describes your view of freedom was written six years ago. Obviously you’re proud of it. I wonder what new experiences and broader understandings you have missed in order to protect your words.

We all have a need for inclusion, no matter how awkward our attempts to be heard.

One observation about the “nature of things” is that sometimes expectations, for better or worse, close doors.

118. paulshabram - September 2, 2008

But I would like to pose a question on a different subject. After reading Ouspensky quotes I am struck by this: Is it really true that the “lower” cannot see the “higher”? Isn’t this also “formatory” to just accept? And for those that have condescended to explain to me that I do not have enough “being” to see, or that I am asleep so I have no access to “higher worlds”, isn’t that just condescension?

I was once in a technical discussion where I asked a question and the “expert” refused to answer on the basis that the answer was “too technical” for me. I responded by telling the “expert” that if he was really an expert he should be able to explain it. He was taken aback because no one had ever challenged this “too technical” assertion before. My assertion was fallacious as well. He was an expert, but he lacked the skill to explain his expertise.

In another experience I was talking to someone whose intelligence was internationally acclaimed. Yet he shocked me when he said, in all sincerity, “You are much smarter than me. You are the smartest person I have ever met.” Now, he knew a lot of people that I knew, and I thought many were much “smarter” than I. I do not see myself as being particularly “smart”. So if what he said was true then I could not “see” the less smart, and if the lower could not see the higher he would not have been able to make that statement. If he was wrong, then did that mean he was right? I hope you see the dilemma. Following the analogy, does this mean that the “lower” cannot look “up”? Can the “higher” look “down”?

I understand that initially it seems like “logic” that “the lower cannot see the higher”, but I question it. The tenet of 4th way, as presented by G and O as well as RB and Daily Cardiac, Beezlebob, and RC, is based on this notion. The commitment to FOLLOW is based on it. I think it is a subject that deserves more than just acceptance because it sounds good. How much were our lives altered by this acceptance?

119. lauralupa - September 2, 2008

arthur, my husband was (still is) from cajun Lousiana. One of my favorite expressions of his was the look on his face and the sound of his voice when he said
mmmmm…. gummmbo

paulshabraham, thanks for deconstructing the myths!

120. Vena - September 2, 2008

Regarding “the lower cannot see the higher”, I had a painting instructor many years ago that told his class not to be overly intimidated by the “Old Masters”. He said, yes, they are masterful but that their level of skill was not unattainable and that as one got closer to their skill level what they had attained would not seem so mysterious and remote.

121. elena - September 3, 2008

Hi Paul,

Paul: “You said: “When I came across positive emotions I was very surprised that there were very few of them.” I strongly expected you would say that. I don’t know if this is a personality trait of the result of FOF influences, or both.”

I don’t think quantity is the issue in relation to positive emotions. The fact that there are few and all interconnected in my experience does not diminish their potency. Since they relate to a state of unity there is no reason for it to be different. If you think of gratitude, grace, trust, dignity, humility, humbleness, compassion, joy, happiness, integrity or wholesomeness and pride what matters is the quality not the quantity. The difference with the negative emotions you listed before is that after expressing them one feels separate from the world and usually infinitely lonely, like a quick ejaculation without the orgasm. Absolutely different experiences in no matter what level you place them.

Paul: “I understand that initially it seems like “logic” that “the lower cannot see the higher”, but I question it…… How much were our lives altered by this acceptance?”

This idea was used by the Fellowship to place us in a submissive condition. It did all the harm it was meant to but from there to it not being able to be used correctly in a different context is a huge gap. If you stand at the bottom of a mountain you will be able to see some things but never as much as you could see from the top. The laws of the physical world are no different to the laws of the spiritual world. If I cannot find an example in the physical world that will convey an idea, it is probably a false one.

119 Lauralupe: “paulshabraham, thanks for deconstructing the myths!”

Yes Paul, cheap myths belong to cheap religions but when you walk on a real myth in your life experience then you get a taste for what the drama is really about. This relates to what Greg wrote in his article on feminine dominance and his anger with parents who teach false personality. When one can bring one’s self to the drama of one’s life and recognize the myth that is being played out, the suffering of every human being is redeemed by one’s presence. Great human beings are not just accidents. Being a hero, even if crucified, is the only role worth playing in the human adventure. One taste of dignity is worth all the humiliation.

But don’t think this is about convincing you of the value of the Fourth Way System or anything else. May you keep your convictions until you experience the desire to explore them. Nothing is more exciting than walking one’s own path. What other people say is like trees down the road. They sometimes serve as shelter, others as traps, like the Fellowship did with all of us for just following somebody else’s path. The most one can do for others is inspire them, like the fragrance of flowers. Everything else is throwing up and you’d better get out of the way.

122. elena - September 3, 2008

Correction: Everything else is throwing up and we’d better get out of each other’s way.

123. Yesri Baba - September 3, 2008

118 PaulS

“I understand that initially it seems like “logic” that “the lower cannot see the higher”, but I question it. The tenet of 4th way, as presented by G and O as well as RB and Daily Cardiac, Beezlebob, and RC, is based on this notion. The commitment to FOLLOW is based on it. I think it is a subject that deserves more than just acceptance because it sounds good. How much were our lives altered by this acceptance?”

Yeah, and why does it feel like they’re saying: ” and stay down there so I can keep pissing on you” rather than extending a hand?

124. whalerider - September 3, 2008

“The lower cannot see the higher.”

How about: what we don’t care to see in ourselves, we see in others.

If we view someone as lower than ourselves, we are even lower.

If you cannot see the higher in yourself and instead look for it in others, prepare to be exploited.

**********

Yesterday, while I was riding the bus with my two kids, I sat down toward the front of the bus in the row of seats that faced inward next to an older, well-dressed African American man with a carved wooden cane. My body was turned somewhat away from him in order to face my kids. I was also slightly leaning against his arm that held his cane. He made some rude comment about giving him some space and pushed me away with his forearm, as if to say, I was here first. I moved away from him, turned, and indicated were the demarcation between the seats was located, and that in fact, he body was in the space allocated to my seat. He moved over.

A few moments later, out of the blue, he said to me, “I am not going to let you take my joy away today. You and your family have a nice day.” I turned to him and said back as sincerely as I could, “What a nice thing to say to someone, thank you. I hope you have a good day, too.” We both smiled. When he got up to leave the bus a few stops later we both warmly said goodbye to each other. My 6 year old daughter then asked me, “Do you know that man?” I said, “I do now. He was the nice man who sat next to me on the bus.”

*********

Then again, we are both the higher and the lower, as needed.

125. Daily Cardiac - September 3, 2008

Paul – 118:

“Is it really true that the “lower” cannot see the “higher”? Isn’t this also “formatory” to just accept?”

It would be formatory just to accept, as would anything, but I feel that this is one of the more easily verifiable of all laws, whatever level it’s taken on.

From a pure physics standpoint if someone lives on the second floor they can see their neighbor’s rooftop who lives on the first floor, but they cannot see their neighbor’s roof who lives on the third floor. They can however reason that their neighbor on the third floor does indeed have a roof.

On the level of intelligence men can “see” into the psychology of animals but not vice versa. Some animals can, however, successfully determine whether or not they can devour a man.

On the level of ordinary schools we can understand that students in lower grades cannot “see” what is required learning for higher grades, and if they are told they cannot comprehend what they hear; whereas those in higher grades can easily place themselves into the setting of a lower grade as they have been there before.

The issue is whether reason and/or evidence supports the probability that this law manifests into the spiritual world. I have no reason to believe it does not.

Rodney Collin very eloquently touched on how the laws of each world, starting with world 1(which only has one law) are carried down into the next lower world where they are added to the laws of that lower world, and on and on.

This reality is expressed in the axiom “As below, so Above.” I take this to mean that for everything that exists in the spirit world there is an expression of it in this world, and vise versa.

126. unoanimo - September 3, 2008

“The Lower Cannot See The Higher.” ~ A Requiem
______________________

Sea the eel owe her, thee higher cannot!

Hire the knot-can; lower thee sea.

Lower the higher, thee cannot see.

See lower, cannot thee hire thee?

Lower the sea higher cannot Thee?

Cannot lower the Thee higher see?

The sea cannot hire lower Thee!

Thee higher thee cannot lower sea.

Higher the sea cannot lower thee.

Cannot the lower hire the sea?

Thee ‘thee’, higher-lower cannot see!

Knot the lower, the higher Can-sea.

See Anne knot thee sea, thee higher-lower.

The low her can knot sea thee hire…

[The Lover cannot seal the flower; she loves me, she loves me not… Let it go before the last petal drops…]

127. lauralupa - September 3, 2008

Hi DC, didn’t you say you were going to write me?
Not to put you in a hurry, just checking…

128. lauralupa - September 3, 2008

and also
The lower cannot see the liar.
The knower cannot be the buyer.
The follower cannot flee the quagmire.
The lover cannot cease the fire.
The higher is not for hire.

129. paulshabram - September 3, 2008

Daily Cardiac 125

“On the level of intelligence men can “see” into the psychology of animals but not vice versa. Some animals can, however, successfully determine whether or not they can devour a man.”

How do you know this? Are you an animal?

“On the level of ordinary schools we can understand that students in lower grades cannot “see” what is required learning for higher grades, and if they are told they cannot comprehend what they hear; whereas those in higher grades can easily place themselves into the setting of a lower grade as they have been there before.”

But this seems as “formatory” as anything I have ever heard. And it condescends instead of transcends. Can’t you transcend your formatory mind for one thought, for one moment?

I can tell you school was not so for me. In school I learned lessons about specific subjects. Some classes made other classes easier, for sure. Sometimes it was better to teach myself, however. I taught myself nearly all the mathematics through differential equations, and then challenged the college classes. And I learned more teaching physics than listening to lectures. But the FOF was not, and is not a school, even if it taught us hard lessons.

“Rodney Collin very eloquently touched on how the laws of each world, starting with world 1(which only has one law) are carried down into the next lower world where they are added to the laws of that lower world, and on and on.”

Rodney Collin constructed a model that made sense to him. It’s just a model, not to be taken literally, like a fundamentalist. Even if he took it literally.

How do you know that it isn’t me that is “higher” and you that is “lower”? After all you wouldn’t be able to see me, and you certainly don’t seem to understand me.

Why do I think your expressed views are “formatory”? The chief quality that says this is the constant errors in your logic. An observed correlation does not imply causation. For example, the population growth of storks in Europe at the end of the nineteenth century, correlated perfectly with the human population growth. Does that mean the storks really do deliver babies? The other error is the implication that an absence of observation proves the opposite must be so. An example:
“The issue is whether reason and/or evidence supports the probability that this law manifests into the spiritual world. I have no reason to believe it does not.” Implies that it must be so simply because YOU have no reason to disbelieve it. Well, the “tale told by an idiot” has certainly suspended your disbelief, but the sound and fury signifies nothing.

130. Ellen - September 3, 2008

Paul, 118
Daily Card, 125

About worlds, RoC, “as above so below”, etc…

The most formatory mistake we all make is forgetting that we ourselves are a cosmos and therefore include it all. This means that, yes, we do “contain” the Absolute. And yes, we each do contain at least the possibility of manifesting as a Hitler. The problem, IMO, is when we forget that we ourselves and other people simply are at any given moment , a manifestation of a certain level or world.

Being frozen or crystallized at any particular level, besides being almost impossible, additionally leads to stagnation and loss of freedom to respond to the moment. In that sense, spiritual development means freeer access to higher worlds within oneself through throwing the ego and lower worlds out of the driver’s seat – but not out of the boat. So, it’s not about anybody else, who they are or who they’re not, but more a question of where you can stabilize. Where “home” is.

Whale Rider, 124, I liked your bus story.

131. Yesri Baba - September 3, 2008

More insights from the 4th state by Y. Baba

The blower cannot see the sigher.

Ass blow? Yo a love!

Every fair (male) is mounted.

watch out for the weevil on the lower shelf

(for DC) Man was created in God’s image, therefore, God is a man.

132. Daily Cardiac - September 3, 2008

Paul – 129:

“How do you know this? Are you an animal?”

Speaking of formatory, you probably don’t see how formatory this logic is. If we had to be something in order to understand it – well, I think the fallacy of your comment speaks for itself. I believe this response to my comment, the truth of which is painfully obvious, illustrates your desire to disagree simply for the sake of disagreeing.

As far as stating that students in lower grades in schools can’t comprehend the lessons taught in higher grades; again, it’s an obvious truth. It’s also a generality. I’m sure there are exceptions.

“How do you know that it isn’t me that is “higher” and you that is “lower”?

All things must be possible, the question you asked above, as well as the reverse of that.

DC: “The issue is whether reason and/or evidence supports the probability that this law manifests into the spiritual world. I have no reason to believe it does not.”

Paul:”Implies that it must be so simply because YOU have no reason to disbelieve it. Well, the “tale told by an idiot” has certainly suspended your disbelief, but the sound and fury signifies nothing.”

I think if you’re intent to find errors in logic you will, and it appears you are intent on that. I made a statement saying “I have no reason to disbelieve X.” You added this must mean I think because I say something is true it is true, but that’s your implication. I was just stating it’s what I believe.

You’re certainly intelligent enough to know I’m not taking any more liberties than anyone else who writes here.

133. lauralupa - September 3, 2008

DC
“On the level of intelligence men can “see” into the psychology of animals but not vice versa. Some animals can, however, successfully determine whether or not they can devour a man.

If I were you, I would not be so sure that men can “see” into the psychology of animals. Surely they can “project” on animals their own current understandings and beliefs and build theories about their psychology based on scientific observation, but if they could really “see” it, they wouldn’t still be studying it and continuing to make new startling discoveries after thousands of years.

I am impressed by the amount of wrong assumptions you take for granted and use to justify your deeply held beliefs!

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text

134. lauralupa - September 3, 2008

possibly even more interesting…
so, maybe calling someone a “birdbrain” is not an insult after all

http://www.africanature.com/Orig Africa Nature/Nature Connect/telepathbasic.htm

135. Vinnie the fish - September 3, 2008

“11. whalerider – August 30, 2008
Tell me, Vinnie the Fish, when you sit there in a trance staring at your cult leader’s left eyeball, and you hear him talking about angels hovering over the dinner table, do you believe he actually sees them?”

Hi Whalerider, why the name, did you ever ride a whale or dolphin?

To answer your question, I don’t do that, and no I don’t believe anything. I don’t usually bother answering non-questions like that which are based on a built-in assumption, but I made an exception in your case since you seem a nice guy.

“130. Ellen – September 3, 2008
About worlds, RoC, “as above so below”, etc…
The most formatory mistake we all make is forgetting that we ourselves are a cosmos and therefore include it all. This means that, yes, we do “contain” the Absolute. And yes, we each do contain at least the possibility of manifesting as a Hitler.”

This is good, to see other people more objectively – that any one of us might be the same as Robert if we had the same influences and unusual tendencies. How would it be if he was female or non-homo? Not even possible for the FOF to have existed then is my guess.

The FOF was like a cyclone created by a weird combination of synchronous forces, that you could hitch a ride on for a while before it fizzles out. Some get tossed around and thrown off and land on their ass, and some get lifted to a better place and land lightly on their feet.

Maybe ‘willy-willy’ is a better word.

136. Vinnie the fish - September 3, 2008

121. elena – September 3, 2008
“The difference with the negative emotions you listed before is that after expressing them one feels separate from the world and usually infinitely lonely, like a quick ejaculation without the orgasm. ”

Hi Elena, were you speaking from experience there?

137. Yesri Baba - September 3, 2008

135 fishy

“…and some get lifted to a better place and land lightly on their feet.”

***—***

Yeah, the Land of Oz with it’s ‘Willy-Willy’ Wizard and his flying monkeys.

138. whalerider - September 3, 2008

Hi Vinnie:
Why the name, are you a fish? If you don’t believe anything, do you at least believe in yourself? And if you believe in yourself, are you still in the FOF? And if the FOF was created from the truth, why then does it fizzle?

139. Mick Danger - September 3, 2008

Corporal Punishment
Little Johnny loved building, everyday he would watch the workers build the houses. One day his mother asks him: ‘What did you learn today?’
Johnny answers: ‘First you get the goddamn door, and then the son-of-a bitch won’t fit, so you take the motherfucker down, plane the shit out of it, and put the cocksucker back up.’
‘Just wait until you father gets home.’ When dad comes home Johnny repeats the lesson and his father says: ‘Go outside and get me a switch.’
Johnny says: ‘Fuck you, that’s the electrians’ job.’

140. elena - September 3, 2008

Yes Vinnie, do you think only men ejaculate? And do you think ejaculating is the same as having an orgasm? Well, go do your homework dear and learn something about sexuality before daddy Robert keeps raping you. Ejaculation might not be the same word for what happens to women but it is the same process.
Do you know why it is said in the workbooks “never allow anything negative come to the sex center”? Because it turns the spirit upside down and makes it work for the devil against awakening and that is what is happening to all of you inside the Fellowship. Run dear, run, or are you the devil’s first class servant?

Of course, in our modern language we would replace the word devil for deranged, sociopath, narcissistic but “smell just as bad”.

141. whalerider - September 3, 2008

Daily Cardiac:

“This reality is expressed in the axiom “As below, so Above.” ”

Actually, you are speaking of the converse of the axiom, which also is true.

I believe the axiom is, As above, so below…such as the solar system of planets seen reflected in the system of glandular bodily types on earth and then again in the system in the contents of a single cell, and then again in the system of the structure of an atom and so forth.

Now, it is true that as a matter of scale the lower cannot see the higher in that an atom cannot “see” a cell of which it is part, and a cell cannot see the entire organism of which it is a part, and a person cannot “see” the entire solar system at one glance…

But as far as I can tell, a human differs from a cell or an atom in that we can *intentionally* employ our creative imagination and higher intellect to perceive all these worlds, both higher and lower. This ability is symbolized in the Star of David.

So your point is unclear to me how the axiom, as above, so below supports the idea that the lower cannot see the higher. I would argue that with conscious use of one’s God given higher faculties, the lower can see the higher, if one makes the necessary effort.

142. Daily Cardiac - September 3, 2008

Laura – 133:

“If I were you, I would not be so sure that men can “see” into the psychology of animals. Surely they can “project” on animals their own current understandings and beliefs and build theories about their psychology based on scientific observation, but if they could really “see” it, they wouldn’t still be studying it and continuing to make new startling discoveries after thousands of years.”

My point was and is that humans are a higher order of creation than animals and as a result of that they understand, ‘see’ animals more than animals understand or “see” them. Men keep animals for pets; not the other way around. You understand my inferences perfectly.

On the surface you and Paul are disputing the animal statement, but in reality you are disputing the notion that there exist men of different levels of spiritual development, and that those on a lower spiritual tier cannot see or recognize those on a higher tier.

The analogy with animals was meant to point out a correlation of that law in the biological realm. So, why should the “lower cannot see the higher” cause so much consternation in you that you would dispute a truth like the animal analogy, that is so obvious to all?

If I did not believe the “lower cannot see the higher” in a spiritual context I think I would still want to investigate as thoroughly as possible, and not sit pat on not believing it. If it’s true I would want to be on the side with truth, even if it meant “going back to the drawing board”, even if it ran counter to my present beliefs. I’m not suggesting abandoning your position, just having an open mind about it.

If the law is true then those who incorporate it into their lives will be closer to a spiritual truth, and therefore closer to a higher spiritual level. If it’s not true then all is well with your present belief. Maybe you’ve already given it much thought; I just know I “touched a cord.”

Regarding me not answering your last questions; I was in the middle of doing so and it occured to me that my previous answers offended you more than a little. So, I decided to not give you another dose of the same. I may reread your questions and give it another try but I don’t know if going back after a gap in time is the best thing.

I have a question – you seem to have a very good grasp of the English language, on the level of a native speaker. How did you accomplish that? If I’m not mistaken you live in Italy now, but you are up to date on all the latest jargon, puns, wordplay. I was very impressed with your last poem from the standpoint of understanding wordplay like a native speaker.

I think you lived at Apollo in the middle to late eighties. When I knew you you did not seem to have any more than an average grasp of English as a second language. Maybe you should market your proficiency to the public.(maybe you already have)

143. Opus 111 - September 3, 2008

Daily Cardiac

You stated before that one key, if not the only reason for staying in the FOF is that you had verified it was a real school and that its teacher, Robert Earl Burton, was, without question (for you) a conscious being.

How did you verify that REB was a conscious being (and I do not just mean able to occasionally reach “higher states”)? If you could weave a little of the “lower cannot see the higher” in your answer, that would be even better.

Thanks.

PS: Maybe one day, you will even address the issue of conscience.

144. Daily Cardiac - September 3, 2008

WhaleRider – 141:

“Now, it is true that as a matter of scale the lower cannot see the higher in that an atom cannot “see” a cell of which it is part, and a cell cannot see the entire organism of which it is a part, and a person cannot “see” the entire solar system at one glance…

But as far as I can tell, a human differs from a cell or an atom in that we can *intentionally* employ our creative imagination and higher intellect to perceive all these worlds, both higher and lower.”

Regarding the “lower cannot see the higher” in a spiritual context; for me it’s not a question of “employing our creative imagination and higher intellect to perceive all these worlds, both higher and lower.”

It’s more a question of a process. Everyone may be inherently capable of the above quote by you, but it does not take into consideration having gone through a process. If you accept that there are enlightened beings, they would be on a higher level, or plane.

Can anyone “see” into their world, into their psychology, their motivations, just because they would wish to? Would that not imply operating at that level? I contend not just anyone could “see” them. Certainly someone striving for the same could understand they have something “I want.” and follow them based on that realization.

I offer the axiom “As Above, so Below”, or its inverse as a tool, as a valid window into a higher realm. We can’t always determine (verify) spiritual truths; but we can more often see their reflection in a lower realm if we incorporate this tool. This assumes someone wants to see the truth. “There is none so blind as they that will not see.”

145. brucelevy - September 3, 2008

144. Daily Cardiac

““There is none so blind as they that will not see.”

Nor is there none so arrogant, insipid and ignorant as those who insist they do see.

146. Yesri Baba - September 3, 2008

If it’s true I would want to be on the side with truth, even if it meant “going back to the drawing board”, even if it ran counter to my present belief.

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Dude, you got sooooooooooo much drawing board to go back to. Be sure to bring a train load of erasers.

Mick- that was a funny joke, but you can’t touch DC. He’s a friggin’ comic genius.

147. brucelevy - September 3, 2008

146. Yesri Baba

Do you mean: From Wikipedia

Tragicomedy is fictional work that blend aspects of the genres of tragedy and comedy.

See : Fellowship of Friends, comictragedy

148. Reality Check - September 3, 2008

The new female candidate for Republican vice-president has a pregnant 17 year old daughter. Everyone agrees that the fact is “irrelevant” as regards her qualifications but every single cable news channel is mentioning the “irrelevant” fact every five minutes. Why? Because the fact isn’t irrelevant. It would be irrelevant if everyone in the voting world was governed by their reason, after all it is only a slight reflection on the character of this sitting governor that her daughter slipped out of her sight long enough to get her pants off for some irresistible young dude. What makes it relevant is the very real fact that people in general are ruled by the ignorant perceptions inured into the lowest capacity of their emotional awareness. Basically people are ruled by the jack of hearts. Base sentimentality and the crudest sense of justice that is imaginable is what operate “civilized” human beings through most of their lives. Why? For one thing maybe 70% or so of the population is centered in one of the jacks just to start with so most people are in fact born stupid. It is in their essence to see the social side of life through the jack of hearts and that function is as ignorantly herd oriented as is possible. Remember a few pages ago the clip about the panel of college students offering their vote on which line is equal in length to the sample line? It is the jack of hearts in people that refuses to accept their own perceptions and instead adopt the perceptions of the majority. The jack of hearts wants beyond anything else in life to be accepted and liked and to those ends it will watch the emotional cues coming from everyone else and agree with them regardless what the actual reality is. Being part of the collective illusion of superficial emotional agreement is far more important to most people than any actual facts.

One of the reasons nature experimentally developed the function of the jack of hearts in mammals is the increased life expectancy of off-spring when they are under the protection of parents actively feeling the emotion of adorability that arises when they look at their helpless and innocent little bundles of flesh. There is no need for the fickle instinctive calculation that reasons if the species is to continue then these little replicates need to survive, too many selfish desires can easily override that instinct as is seen in nature where fish and reptiles routinely abandon their young and even cannibalize them. For mammals, particularly humans, the feeling of “love” so overwhelms the mother that she would willingly die that her offspring could survive. Of course this is only true in average cases; there are aberrant individuals that do not feel the jack of hearts/queen of clubs emotion of protective motherhood. Outside of the original biological design of protective motherhood the jack of hearts serves in the lives of people as a very ineffective surrogate conscience. It “feels sorry” for those is perceives as somehow “disadvantaged.” In the interactions of the perceived social order for example, the perception from the jack of hearts is that the one individual who is vulnerable and naïve, likable and emotionally indiscriminate, accessible to anyone and everyone, needs protection (due to some assumed disability) from anyone aggressively operating under the supposition that being naïve and unrealistically idealistic at 50 years of age is a genuine handicap while in the stated pursuit of comprehending reality. Even as the dear innocent eagerly offers to others the merits of the philosophy of credulity, touting all the superficial semblances of ‘freedom’, if anyone suggests that the outlook is impractical then the jack of hearts jumps in with the kind of misguided sympathy that in effect insists that even 50 year old children need to be protected from the hard realities of life.

Before there is any possibility of “consciousness” of any significant degree it is necessary to rid oneself of the inborn tendency to ignore reality and agree with the deluded majority (remember the results in clip of the “line experiment”), it is necessary to loosen the impulse to follow the dictates of popular sentimentality over unwelcome practicality. It is bizarre to watch people functioning from the lowest function of the emotional capacity while touting “consciousness” as a readily accessible popular form of entertainment available to each and every human “always and everywhere.” As unpopular as it may seem, the truth is that there is a bit more “denying force” to developing higher consciousness than meets either the eye or the crowd philosophy that all that is ever required to do the impossible is overwhelmingly positive enthusiasm.

149. Ames Gilbert - September 3, 2008

Daily Cardiac (#48-125 or thereabouts), you play with the concept of, “The lower cannot see the higher”; you ‘reason’ that it is true (“I have no reason to believe it does not”). You throw in some stuff about the increasing number of laws that manifest in the hierarchy of worlds as described by Ouspensky, Gurdjieff, and Collin. Unfortunately, DC, this has nothing to do with the case, which is an argument based on scale, not number of laws; I’ll let Reality Check make that point in detail, if he feels inclined. I guess you are bothering to do this, because there is the implication that because we are ‘lower’ in some way, we cannot see the ‘higher’ reality of Burton.

I would say, as a preamble, that it seems fairly evident that we can ‘see’ (experience) at least partially into other ‘worlds’ in each direction. I can directly see large bacteria with my naked eye, small ones with a light microscope. I can see planets, stars, nebulae and galaxies, with my naked eye (an organic instrument), and resolve them in more detail with a light telescope. Of course, with other suitable instruments, I can indirectly examine molecules, atoms and sub-atomic particles in one direction, quasars, novae, gas clouds, and so on in the other direction. So we can modify the physical axiom you gave as an example right away; we can see the ‘higher’ and ‘lower’. The only question is, how far (to what scale)?

I’m as lazy as the next, and I feel like Sisyphus arguing with you and your blog clones, so I’m going to quote from the end of my post #8-401, which was about the structure of organizations, including the Fellowship of Friends. By all means read the whole thing, if you can spare the time!
“It has been said many times that Burton has a higher being lesser folk cannot comprehend. Let us assume that this is true—for a moment. Here is the solution to the quandary of what happens if the founder is remote or inaccessible in any way. All we have to do is to look at his work, the results of his being. In this analogy, when a founder takes in managers and workers, he will mold the management to suit his purposes. That is, they will manifest his management style, they will be in fact lesser or miniature versions of him—any new recruit that does not fit in with his style is shown the door, of course. So, if the founder is inaccessible, study the lower layers of management that are accessible. Study Girard, study Linda, study the center directors, study the older students. They are in Burton’s mold. “By their fruits ye shall know them”. Watch a student in line for promotion/glory, watch how they mold themselves to suit, watch their manifestations. You will get a very accurate picture of those ‘above’ them.” So, Daily Cardiac, here is an example of how to really use the idea of “As below, so above”, as you put it.

One clear example is how Mihal and Dorian acted when the cat was away. They sold favors for sex. They exchanged the Fellowship scrip, the coupons for meetings and such, for sexual favors from female members. They copied Beloved Teacher, who exchanges money, favors, shopping experiences, cars, clothes, and status for sex. What happened when Beloved Teacher learned of this? M and D were put out of circulation for a few days—a token ‘punishment’ by any account—then restored to favor. Just giggles, really. This is the reality of Burton’s ‘higher’ being, Daily Cardiac. No need for interpretation or buffering of any kind. This is what he taught; the followers practiced the lesson to make sure they’d got it, Burton gave feedback on their efforts. I’d say he gave them an A-. What do you think? There are hundreds of other examples to study, if you will.

One day it may be possible to show you that one can observe the ‘higher’ quite directly, but in the meantime, since you have the ‘higher cannot see the lower’ pretty firmly fixed in your mind, I’ll argue on your terms.

150. Ames Gilbert - September 3, 2008

Oops, in my last post #148, I meant,
“…since you have the ‘lower cannot see the higher’ pretty firmly fixed in your mind, I’ll argue on your terms.”

151. vinnie the fish - September 3, 2008

138. whalerider – September 3, 2008
Hi Vinnie: Why the name, are you a fish? If you don’t believe anything, do you at least believe in yourself? And if you believe in yourself, are you still in the FOF? And if the FOF was created from the truth, why then does it fizzle?

Nah not a fish, you need fingers to type silly. I think I’m a human, and mine’s just a nickname. I’m Vinnie ‘The Fish’ Laranzano. And no don’t believe in nuffin, especially not humans. Self is an untrustworthy horde of rabble, like a gang of marauding bloggers. All your other questions exclude themselves, again! “FOF was created from the Truth” sounds like it was from the Bible!

152. James Mclemore - September 3, 2008

148. Reality Check
“As unpopular as it may seem, the truth is that there is a bit more “denying force” to developing higher consciousness than meets the eye” (edited slightly)

I agree with the idea that there is more denying force than I often calculate. I do not pretend to understand the ‘developing’ part, as it does not seem to me at this point in my life that we actually ‘develop’ anything.
What confuses me is that sometimes it feels like you are battling something that you suppose you see here, that may not exist. Perhaps it does exist and I just cannot perceive it, but I do not see this ‘crowd philosophy’ you speak of, and I personally cannot remember ever reading on this blog where someone said anything even remotely similar to,
“all that is ever required to do the impossible is overwhelmingly positive enthusiasm.”

Do you think that perhaps there is a part of you that has overwhelmingly positve enthusiasm, and you have suppressed it because it feels like a weakness?
Maybe it is not useful to be overwhelmed all the time, and then again, maybe it is exactly what we need, not as a tool to get anywhere but as an experience so that we might learn to laugh at ourselves. At any rate, positive enthusiasm sounds like it could be pretty good stuff; again, not because it will get you anywhere but just because it might be more fun.

153. Reality Check - September 3, 2008

“The lower cannot see the higher.” Obviously this is meant in a psychological/esoteric context. The only way to actually know this to be a fact is if someone of a lower level raises himself to a higher level and now understands that he could not directly see the possibilities that have become a reality for him. To just mouth the formula repeatedly without such verification is of doubtful proof of anything higher. As an argument that, “You can’t understand what we understand because we are higher than you,” it’s obviously self-serving and entirely naïve in the assumption that any reasonable citizens are going to accept the explanation as a fact. Someone of a higher level would know better than even mention such a “law” to those not in direct experience of it. For all practical purposes what actually happens in the process is that there are glimpses of the higher long before one becomes the higher permanently, otherwise why would one pursue it? What goes wrong with the formulation is when a man hears rumors of the higher and without any glimpse of what might be up there he pursues his imagination rather than something realistic.

“The lower cannot see the higher.” What is actually being said in this particular context is: “What we are doing is obviously significant because it is we who are doing it. You can’t understand how significant it is because you aren’t doing it too!” This is the basis of every religion, of course.

154. James Mclemore - September 3, 2008

153. Reality Check

” “The lower cannot see the higher.” What is actually being said in this particular context is: “What we are doing is obviously significant because it is we who are doing it. You can’t understand how significant it is because you aren’t doing it too!” This is the basis of every religion, of course.”

Nicely put.

155. Reality Check - September 3, 2008

Question: Do you think that you might just be imagining that there are many people on the blog talking about Advaita Vedanta and non-dualism philosophy wherein some believe that non-effort is the sure key to the fourth state of consciousness? Because I’ve never noticed any discussions about Advaita Vedanta and non-dualism wherein some believe that non-effort is the sure key to the fourth state of consciousness here. Does it ever occur to you that you might be the only fan of Advaita Vedanta and non-dualism around and not accepting the idea within yourself you then employ Freudian projection in order to argue against it? Doesn’t this seem entirely likely? Because, frankly, if you are against it then I am entirely for it.

Answer: No. I’m sure that is not the case.

156. Rear View Mirror - September 3, 2008

Compare Your Self

I want to be awake.
For me to be awake,
You must be asleep.
So I’ll prove to you
That you’re asleep.

I want to be more.
For me to be more,
You must be less.
So I’ll prove to you
That you are less.

I want to know.
For me to know,
You must not know.
So I’ll prove to you
That you don’t know.

I want to be right.
For me to be right,
You must be wrong.
So I’ll prove to you
That you’re wrong.

I want to be connected
To the Divine.
For me to connect
To the Divine,
You must be disconnected
From the Divine.

So I’ll prove to you
That you’re disconnected
From the Divine.

I want to be strong.
For me to be strong,
You must be weak.
So I’ll prove to you
That you are weak.

I want to win.
For me to win,
You must lose.
So I’ll prove to you
That you have lost.

I must be wise.
For me to be wise,
You must be foolish.
So I’ll prove to you
That you are foolish.

I must be safe.
For me to be safe,
You must be in danger.
So I’ll prove to you
That you’re in danger.

I want to have the best
For me to have it,
You must not have it.
So I’ll convince you
That you don’t have it.

I want to love.
For me to love,
You must — not love?

Wait…

It’s not what I thought.
I want to be awake.
For me to awaken,
I begin to see.

I see your love,
I see your wisdom,
I see your knowledge,
I see that you’re safe,
I see that you are strong.

I see your connection
To the Divine.

I see that you have
Everything that I want.
And that I have it, too.

157. Daily Cardiac - September 4, 2008

Opus 111 – 143:
“You stated before that one key, if not the only reason for staying in the FOF is that you had verified it was a real school and that its teacher, Robert Earl Burton, was, without question (for you) a conscious being.

How did you verify that REB was a conscious being (and I do not just mean able to occasionally reach “higher states”)? If you could weave a little of the “lower cannot see the higher” in your answer, that would be even better.”

It may not be impossible to explain to someone how a truth, fact, reality, is verified but it’s next to impossible. My most important verifications came unconnected with words or thought processes. In fact if anything the verifications impeded, or shunted, thoughts. I don’t really recall trying to verify something important when the process happened. Sometimes I would try to verify something only to find I could not and then later it would come seemingly on its own. Often it would come as I was trying to separate from some friction of the moment. The act of separation was probably the primer needed to set off the event.

Verification for me was/is more like a silent transfer that “happens” and suddenly you understand or know something you didn’t know an instant before. Personally I believe one has to be in or near the third state to receive a verification.

I know this really doesn’t address the “how” part, but if that could be expressed in a formula it would change the whole game. If there is a formula it is specific to each individual. So, it that sense one can see patterns are involved. I’d say a dialog is established with higher forces and once the connection is made they will use similar methods so that patterns start to emerge.

It would do no good for me to say “every time a door slammed shut” it meant this or that – although one can certainly come out of imagination and receive a verification due to a door slamming close by.

Another condition is that one needs to have an open mind about what one is seeking to verify. I would say this is a necessary ingredient.

If I am trying to verify if a teacher is conscious for instance, first my own compass regarding consciousness must be accurate (but that’s a completely other subject). But it is imperative to have an open mind; if one is skeptical verifying is out of reach.

If one is colored or charged either way (positively or negatively) I personally don’t think one is able to receive any accurate information. And it’s extremely difficult to suspend one’s beliefs, but that’s what’s required.

When I found and read the “Search”, and “The Fourth Way” I intuitively felt it was what I had always been looking for. The feeling was so strong that that in itself was a verification to me. Meeting the school felt the same.

For me, from the start, the school was bigger than Robert. I see Robert as a student as much as a teacher. For me the FoF is Influence C’s school. Of course much happens through Robert, but it’s not Robert’s school. If someone feels Robert is the school I would say it’s an ill formed attitude.

And if you think that way and you have issues with Robert it’s very difficult to overcome that and stay. People who were asked to leave by Robert will see it differently I’m sure. But people are not asked to leave out of the clear blue; there’s usually a series of events that lead up to those moments.

158. You-me-us-they - September 4, 2008

As above, so below.
As within,so without.
(The Emerald Tablet, circa 3000 BC)

159. brucelevy - September 4, 2008

157. Daily Cardiac

Holy shit. Unfuckingbelievable. Reminds me of the old play “I’m dancing as fast as I can”. You, my friend, are a waste of horse flesh.

160. paulshabram - September 4, 2008

DC 144 and before

To repeat and aknowledge R.C. said:

“The lower cannot see the higher.” What is actually being said in this particular context is: “What we are doing is obviously significant because it is we who are doing it. You can’t understand how significant it is because you aren’t doing it too!” This is the basis of every religion, of course.”

I brought this subject of “lower cannot see the higher” up to question it. A “System” that requires verification cannot be simply BELIEVED. Should not such an important tenet be questioned? I and others have laid out reason we should question it. I was a little surprised to find that you alone jumped in to say it was obvious. I agree with you that it is the process that matters, and testing and questioning and critical thinking makes for a very good process.

Support of a “System that requires taking the word of some author, or some person, and justifying that by the “lower cannot see the higher”, is not a system of verification, it becomes a religion.

So I come to the next question: What value does this tenet have?

It is often said that “the truth will set you free.” Do you believe that? It seems to be a reasonable notion, although I can see how it could be construed to not always be the case. Is “the lower cannot see the higher” a “truth” that brings freedom or does it bring restriction (and even imprisonment)?

If one is seeking something “higher”, then it is welcome to hear that one can reach these higher states intentionally by “Self Remembering” and “Being Present”. If one finds that through these exercises “higher states” are more than just being awake, what is the real value to the seeker of being told, “you are asleep”, “you have no will”, “you cannot do”, “obey”? If the “System” works, what difference does it make for the “Teacher”of the system to declare himself a “conscious being”?

161. Reality Check - September 4, 2008

“The truth will set you free.”

Nothing insults a man more than telling him the truth about himself.

They say they want to know the truth, but in the beginning the truth is always ugly.

Watch when they ask for the firm truth about themselves, how relieved they always are when instead they are told a soft lie.

The more accurately you tell a man the truth about himself the more he will be convinced that you are a dangerous enemy, but at the same time the more he will laugh and insist that you are mistakenly talking about yourself.

Those with any real possibilities always want the truth about themselves, they never shrink from knowing the worst.

A lie is more misleading when it contains nearly the entire truth.

The truth does not hurt, it costs. It costs men their lies. Whatever feels hurt by the truth is false.

A command of the facts is not necessarily a grasp of reality or even a slight glimpse of the truth.

By the time the public believes in it the truth has already become a lie.

It is probably impossible to say anything of intelligence that cannot be taken to its extreme and twisted into its opposite thus rendering it inevitably dangerous. The more truth expressed outside of restricted gatherings then the more damage is likely done to the general population.

Truth: the phrase “The lower cannot see the higher” appears in neither “In Search of the Miraculous” or “The Fourth Way.”

Here are quotes from ISOTM that are close:

“At the same time the same work of art will produce different impressions on people of different levels. And people of lower levels will never receive from it what people of higher levels receive. This is real, objective art.”

“Actually a pupil can never see the level of the teacher. This is a law. No one can see higher than his own level. But usually people not only do not know this, but, on the contrary, the lower they are themselves, the higher the teacher they demand.”

From the Fourth Way:

“We are not capable of seeing levels of being higher than our own; we can judge about the level of being only on the same level as ours or lower. It is important to remember this principle.”

Marginal:

“People can persuade you that something is good food and sell it in a tin, and then you find that you cannot eat it; but by observation, by comparing, sometimes by talk with other people you can understand which impressions belong to higher levels and which to lower.”

“For instance what is called magic may be the manifestation of a world of a higher plane on a lower plane. Suppose higher emotional centre manifests itself on a lower level – it will be a miracle.”

“By stupefying lower centres they can put us into contact with higher centres; but it would be of no use to us, because we can remember only as much as we have consciousness. Since we have no consciousness, connection with higher centres will only result in dreams or in unconsciousness.”

“But the psychological method shows that every thing, every conclusion, every deduction is a mental picture and is merely the result of the working of our mind. For distinguishing, comparing and finding the relative values of things and seeing which is higher and which lower, you can start only with this realization of the possibility of different minds.”

“What I want you to understand is that, even using ordinary knowledge, you can come to the relative value of ideas and see that the starting-point is the realization that our ordinary mind is not the only one that exists.”

162. Daily Cardiac - September 4, 2008

Ames – 149:

“I guess you are bothering to do this, because there is the implication that because we are ‘lower’ in some way, we cannot see the ‘higher’ reality of Burton.”

For the umpteenth time – there are no implications to my words. What you read into my words belongs to you. I’m telling of my reality as best and as honestly as I can. What am I supposed to do, abdicate my life because you haven’t experienced the FoF as I have? Should I not talk about it because it might contradict your experiences? Am I supposed to walk away from what I value and what sustains me because you didn’t value it or because it didn’t sustain you?

163. nigel harris price - September 4, 2008

Just thought you may like to know – only 5% of all humans dream in colour (split evolutionary stages?)…..Nigel.

164. arthur - September 4, 2008

“as above, so below”? The lower cannot see the higher? I have no clue.

But, I read the following paraphased from Dr. Nicoll’s “Commentaries”. It refers to the Bible in Mark 7:34.

A Deaf and Dumb man was brought to Jesus the Christ for “healing”

The ‘sensual’ or ordinary mind which takes everything literally believed the man would be physically healed, made to Hear and Talk.

The ‘spiritiual’ or psychological mind waited to see what happened.

Jesus the Christ went through some kind of ‘ritual’ and said to ‘heaven’ (as above), “Ephphatha” which means in Aramaic, Be Opened (so below).

The Deaf and Dumb man was healed (maybe physically) but since the Bible is a “B” influence (spiritual Book) the Deaf and Dumb man was “healed” to receive Higher Knowledge and could “speak plainly about it”.

Robert Earl Burton and the Followship of Friends are Deaf and Dumb and need a Spiritual Healing.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say sucking cocks is the proper ‘ritual’ for EPHPHATHA.

165. arthur - September 4, 2008

OH, this is just my opinion:

Muslims when they pray face toward Mecca (if that is East, esoterically that means toward the source of truth).

Their ‘ritual’ consists in holding their hands over their head with thumbs close to their “EARS”.

Then they say, Allahu Akbar which I think means, “God is Great”?

They bring their hand back “DOWN” to their sides or breast and recite FATHIHAH (the Opening) chapter of the Qoran.

During the ‘ritual’ they rise and say, “God HEARETH whoso praiseth Him”.

“As above, so below”? Who can tell ? Only those who are OPENED and not Deaf and Dumb. Which I am not one.

166. will coyote - September 4, 2008

May be I understand you D.C In my school we too learn that the school didnt’ exist without a work of all the people . In the same time my ex Master says that the school is him. And in the implement he made more the second. I have really liked what Ames wrote in (8 * 400). My Master have said that him is connected to the source, so he never loose energy. But ,for what I feel, the materiality of Knowing needs that there is a “right” connection between Source , Pupils, and Master like channel IN TWO WAYS. Paoletti(my ex master) has take the cosmo ‘s law and have make a pedagogy from it. He states that the Higher always have choice to make the minor makes an effort in the direction of his size. So if one find himself changed by the effort urged from the higher he became higher himself: this is a possible verification. In my personal experience I am still confuse. Because I have verifified that is possible make a fake bigger than you and take for real change just some very subiective states: and in on contest that plays all the same game it is really very difficult prove the contrary. In the same experience I have find useful tools, some praxis that goes in the direction I choose for my life. Also self remembering is a tool, it is not a final goal. The only final goal is general evolution( and this ,also if for me is mixed with a lot of immagination , it is evolution for moon, for earth, for all living beings: if in my “work” it happens that I don’t feel more compassion, there is some wrong.

167. lauralupa - September 4, 2008

DC 142
“Regarding me not answering your last questions; I was in the middle of doing so and it occured to me that my previous answers offended you more than a little. So, I decided to not give you another dose of the same. I may reread your questions and give it another try but I don’t know if going back after a gap in time is the best thing.”

I am not convinced that “offended” is the best way to define my reaction, but let’s leave it at that. Thanks for deciding against giving me another dose of the same. Who knows, maybe one day, in another life or a different universe, we’ll be able to see eye to eye and speak heart to heart.

“I have a question – you seem to have a very good grasp of the English language, on the level of a native speaker. How did you accomplish that? If I’m not mistaken you live in Italy now, but you are up to date on all the latest jargon, puns, wordplay.”

Thanks for your comment. I’d say it’s a mix of living in a bilingual family, watching satellite tv and original language movies, reading a lot of writings in English in books and on the web, and most of all, having been in love with the English-American language, music and popular culture ever since I was a little girl listening to my mom’s Beatles 45rpm (I remember always trying to understand what they were singing about).
As the song goes, All you need is love.
BTW, I had a crush on George.

DC 162
“What am I supposed to do, abdicate my life because you haven’t experienced the FoF as I have? Should I not talk about it because it might contradict your experiences? Am I supposed to walk away from what I value and what sustains me because you didn’t value it or because it didn’t sustain you?”

Dear DC, you are starting to sound a little desperate here. You may want to reexamine what your expectations were when you started writing on a blog whose main contributors are disillusioned and often still upset ex FoF members. And what keeps you returning to this forum. No one is forcing you, right?

168. Mick Danger - September 4, 2008

Right on Wil Coyote, you have hit upon The Infallible Test of Being – The presence of Love.
Great Poem Rear View Mirror

169. Yesri Baba - September 4, 2008

161

“By stupefying lower centres they can put us into contact with higher centres…”

—————-

Keep this shit up then, I’m almost a man # 10

170. Yesri Baba - September 4, 2008

156 RVM

😉

171. unoanimo - September 4, 2008

Hello Daily Cardiac ~

Thank you for the inspiration to write you back ~

You wrote ~

“Can anyone “see” into their world, into their psychology, their motivations, just because they would wish to? Would that not imply operating at that level? I contend not just anyone could “see” them. Certainly someone striving for the same could understand they have something “I want.” and follow them based on that realization.”
——

Someone quoted ~

“The lower cannot see the higher.”

——

Yesterday I was a little ‘stumped’ over something; the world I look at every day offered up allot of ‘signs’ for me to ‘get it’ or at least make it to the cliff’s edge with my hang glider… When I went to bed last night I had a flying visitor enter my room (A beautiful, black eyed and frisky praying mantis [their eyes turn black in the dark]) and then later, two dreams woke me from their emotional power…

These dreams took me deeper into the ‘tree stump’… I lay there and really got a bit panicky over the crisscrossing emotional willynesses occurring, the utter irreconcilable(ness) I felt along with a very intense urgency to make my way to being with it (Because it certainly felt like something wanted me to enter its domain.)…

Ten minutes later it occurred to me that I had somewhere misplaced (Did I ever have it long enough ever in my lifestyle to say “It’s mine”?) my dignity and its indigenous good habits.

I’ve noticed these past few days that there are ‘dogs’ running around in my life, ‘Master-less’, and for the sake of sporting me down… Maybe when we make a switch from feeding painful qualities of our psyches, the starving ‘good’ masses begin to visit one-by-one (?)

I want to acknowledge in my human relationships (business or personal), what I have come to realize to be certain ‘common’ and ‘right’ human qualities that I wish to stay ‘open’ and flowing in and out of my life as shared appreciation of differences, dignity, trust and love: this is something I wish to practice and give; though very often these days I’ve found myself apologizing because I am simultaneously (subconsciously) interested in improving what I see in others than seeing what is vividly dilapidated (and not dignified) about standing back and making this ‘Get-Well-Soon-Everybody-Except-Me’-stuff up…

The mirror asks for nothing, though I give it everything in return: there’s something odd about that.

So, these days, I consider that I most certainly do not live alone so far as lessons, love and friends go, though very often do not know (or can access) a place to honor that consideration with dignity and trust: so, there’s a big drawing board there… Wishing and what we’re actually dishing out daily…

The questions you asked about looking inwards: I would answer a ‘Yes’ to them… I feel it’s a ‘learning-mistake’ (we) make to underestimate ‘dreams’ and ‘signs’, signals from beyond our fingertips and our gut (and Conscience) aka the holy Third-Party the priests and police can never write about… What makes me happy or gloomy can be a harp and a harpoon (no offense Whalerider). Then there’s just me; the holes that carved the flute around themselves.

At times my psychological/pathological footsteps cannot see the source of the light or the eclipse, so, ‘things’ happen that show me: “The lower cannot see the higher.” It also works that the Higher cannot see the Lower until it makes itself seen and the other way around too… For me, these days, that phrase is a personal reference to my baggage, time, conscience and what I am, what I give and do to ‘help’ this world I am ‘in’… The ‘cannot’ is what the painbody sucks on… (Semantics is a trap, IMO):

‘Can’ I bring ‘cannot’ into a more probable realm of Right Now? It really sounds fatalistic as a stand-alone with no context to what you can do today; so, let’s plow it under and ‘farm it’ and call it Yearning… To the ‘intellectual seeker’ in the fourth way [‘cannot’] proposes a challenge, an effort ‘to see’, to defeat the Devils of Cannot…

What if it’s a positive affirmation and not a negative one? Could ‘cannot’ be a positive affirmation of acceptance and trust within the mystery of Yearning, i.e., the sort Rumi speaks of… I believe you know…

The loss and starvation of ‘dignity’ was an utter revelation for me and it really laid me out… (How could I have missed this?) Then again, if a ball is arguing that it’s not round and a square is telling a curve ‘You ought to be less multi-sided in your opinions’, then what? The bud opening simply cannot see itself as a finished blossom until the ‘time’ is right: no matter, simultaneously our yearning and answers (IMO) are growing and blossoming in us, i.e., whatever we yearn…

Maybe it’s that sometimes we do not trust our desires ‘As They Are’, i.e., as self-referential and not something the world owes us and so, ask them too soon to satisfy themselves ‘Now!’ Though isn’t ‘having’ dissatisfaction prerequisite for asking or expecting satisfaction? There’s an irony… Maybe there are parts of ourselves that ‘close-up’ when asked to get in line to be ‘proved’ by the left-brain’s appetite for winning and loosing (?) Isn’t the having alone, a miracle of ‘being enough’ of an answer without defining it by prying open the clinched fist holding just itself?

To me, it’s more subtle than what we can and cannot ‘do’; the desire is happening 24/7; on the scale of eternity, this is a kind of prayer-doing: some ‘practical thinkers’ in me might say, ‘Well, what good is it, that’s just faith? It takes energy to remind and reinvest the heart with this kind of prayer, i.e., what it gathers by being itself, the holy yearning that has no conversation to answer it…
(To take it from the head and put it in the Heart of Doing)

There’s a baby in my arms called ‘Dignity’, I want to be careful with it and have an apology to deliver today…

Be well: no body (I hope) really wishes to challenge you or anyone on your beliefs except to get inside themselves and sweep up the residue of those ‘things’ still in them that you mirror: I get anxious sometimes about some of the things you write and then I think you’re writing it ‘Tongue in Cheek’… Maybe that’s just my way of smoothing over what’s in between, i.e., my inability to be dignified in the face of another’s plain face, smiling or crying, no matter the subject… Someplace inside dignity there must be a way to help one another without saying “cannot”.

L.t.y.a.

172. Walter Tanner - September 4, 2008

“The lower cannot see the higher” is a remarkable admission of the moral dead-end facing those still defending REB.

But there is some truth to the original statement. Wittgenstein really understood mystical states and their nature, and he wrote: “The solution to the problem of life is seen in the vanishing of the problem.” That is, as has been said, “higher” states allow one to see the illusory nature of our “lower” problems.

Here I can comment directly upon Robert’s condition: his problem is that he is a closeted gay, probably transsexual, man, and the vanishing of that problem would be for him to accept who he is and have real relationships according to his nature (as a bottom). Instead he continues the dominance-guru gig by day and compensates with his outrageous behavior with the boys. Its strikingly by-the-book Freudian sexual-plumbing.

walter.tanner@gmail.com

173. Daily Cardiac - September 4, 2008

Paul – 160:

“Support of a “System that requires taking the word of some author, or some person, and justifying that by the “lower cannot see the higher”, is not a system of verification, it becomes a religion.”

You are correct. Actually people can make a religion of anything – hunting & fishing – electric trains – stamp collecting. The Forth Way “system”, as it has come down to us, is esoteric thought, which itself lies outside of the bounds of religion – it predates religion.

If someone reads and interprets a book like The Fourth Way and turns it into religion it is not due to the text but due to their own desire or need to distort it.

For someone to be truly attracted to esoteric thought they would need to have already rejected religion. Otherwise they would be approaching it looking for a new religion. This does happen quite often.

“The lower cannot see the higher” can be used as a tool or a weapon. It can be misapplied or rightly applied.

174. whalerider - September 4, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
“Regarding the “lower cannot see the higher” in a spiritual context; for me it’s not a question of “employing our creative imagination and higher intellect to perceive all these worlds, both higher and lower.”

It’s more a question of a process. Everyone may be inherently capable of the above quote by you, but it does not take into consideration having gone through a process. If you accept that there are enlightened beings, they would be on a higher level, or plane.

Can anyone “see” into their world, into their psychology, their motivations, just because they would wish to? Would that not imply operating at that level? I contend not just anyone could “see” them. Certainly someone striving for the same could understand they have something “I want.” and follow them based on that realization.

I offer the axiom “As Above, so Below”, or its inverse as a tool, as a valid window into a higher realm. We can’t always determine (verify) spiritual truths; but we can more often see their reflection in a lower realm if we incorporate this tool. This assumes someone wants to see the truth. “There is none so blind as they that will not see.””

*********

Certainly employing creative imagination and higher intellect is a
process, is it not? Perceptions of higher dimensions of existence don’t just happen; it takes effort to use these faculties, don’t you agree? Is not also the same in a spiritual context as well?

It strikes me as odd that you left off the word “*intentional*” when you quoted me above, which I specifically highlighted in asterisks to alert you of the process of which I spoke.

In the interest of preserving a “working ego” personality used to get ones needs met in society, I would argue that most people do not wish to see into their own psychology or motivations unless they were presented with a life problem or challenge that was overwhelmingly difficult.

To see themselves, they need both the desire to change and the willingness to accept help from another. At least that has been my experience in working with people. At that low moment, they usually feel stigmatized, disempowered and have low self-esteem. The task is to help them regain their high self-esteem, which is not to say they become “higher” or better than anyone else, just on par or equal with their peer group.

In fact, happiness makes us all equals.

As you mentioned, using the inverse of the aforementioned axiom, as below, so above, still suggests to me that the lower can see the higher through the process of analogy…that “we can see their (higher laws) reflection in a lower realm”. Isn’t that the lower seeing the higher? Why wouldn’t that be so in any realm spiritual or otherwise? Since we cannot enter into the mind of an animal, we have to use analogy to grasp what their level of consciousness might be like. In not to be led astray on the spiritual path, it would serve us well to use analogy to grasp what the consciousness of an enlightened person might be like, too. If you don’t have a destination in mind, you are destined to swim in circles, (right vinnie?)

I firmly believe that the idea that “the lower cannot see the higher” is counterintuitive and a counterproductive belief, manipulating the adherent to accept a lesser status than equal and receive input or guidance from another based upon faith and not verification.

The truth has to be verifiable in an unbiased way, meaning it ought to be able to be experimentally duplicated in a blind test, otherwise I argue that it is not verification at all, but a subjective belief based on subjective experience, which can be easily skewed and unconsciously biased.

Let me rephrase your last axiom…there are none so blind than those who choose not to see themselves.

Enlightened beings teach us to look for the truth within ourselves.

It is truly enlightening to see each person as our equal no matter what status or station they are in life.

Elitism breeds discontent.

175. Yesri Baba - September 4, 2008

There was a young boy named Check
smarter than heck-up from the neck
but his sick little heart
smelled like an egg fart
and on each it did peck peck peck.

176. Yesri Baba - September 4, 2008

Wittgenstein really understood mystical states and their nature, and he wrote: “The solution to the problem of life is seen in the vanishing of the problem.”

——–

That’s why he got paid the big bucks.

177. Reality Check - September 4, 2008

“It is bizarre to watch people functioning from the lowest function of the emotional capacity while touting ‘consciousness’ as a readily accessible popular form of entertainment available to each and every human ‘always and everywhere’.”

178. xeeena - September 4, 2008

“In truth, without deceit, certain, and most veritable.

That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracles of the One Thing. And just as all things have come from this One Thing, through the meditation of One Mind, so do all created things originate from this One Thing, through Transformation.

Its father is the Sun, its mother the Moon. The Wind carries it in its belly; its nurse is the Earth. It is the origin of All, the consecration of the Universe; its inherent Strength is perfected, if it is turned into Earth.

Separate the Earth from Fire, the Subtle from the Gross, gently and with great Ingenuity. It rises from Earth to heaven and descends again to Earth, thereby combining within Itself the powers of both the Above and the Below.

Thus will you obtain the Glory of the Whole Universe. All Obscurity will be clear to you. This is the greatest Force of all powers, because it overcomes every Subtle thing and penetrates every Solid thing.

In this way was the Universe created. From this comes many wondrous Applications, because this is the Pattern.

Therefore am I called Thrice Greatest Hermes, having all three parts of the wisdom of the Whole Universe. Herein have I completely explained the Operation of the Sun”

From the Emerald Tablet of Hermes {compiled from several early Latin and German versions} thought to have been written between 5 and 10 thousand years ago.

I found this in the book “The Emerald Tablet–Alchemy for Personal Transformation by Dennis William Hauck which I think many of you would enjoy reading.

179. Vinnie the Fish - September 4, 2008

“174. whalerider
If you don’t have a destination in mind, you are destined to swim in circles, (right vinnie?)
I firmly believe that the idea that “the lower cannot see the higher” is counterintuitive…”

Yes you’re right WR, aims are necessary to not go in circles or descend. Better not to ‘believe’ anything though, be flexible.

Talking about lower and higher goes round in circles too, endless words. There’s one world, one love, as the song goes.

Dog sees me, I see stars, so? What’s this lower/higher business anyway, just the classifiying is elitism isn’t it? All images in my retina, same to me.

180. Vinnie the Fish - September 4, 2008

Those mandala things next to people’s names are nice.

181. Vinnie the Fish - September 4, 2008

“140. elena – September 3, 2008
Yes Vinnie, do you think only men ejaculate? And do you think ejaculating is the same as having an orgasm? ”

Such personal questions Elena, I find you quite stimulating and more than interesting I must confess.

I haven’t seen a woman ejaculate, does something squirt out? Perhaps that white lumpy substance often observed emanating from the ripe vulva?

And no I sometimes ejaculate copious amounts without orgasming, if you must know! However I haven’t orgasmed without ejaculating, unless it was the 6th time in a row, have you?

182. lauralupa - September 4, 2008

xeeena 178
hi xeeena, as synchronicity would have it, as I was reading the follow-up to the “building a religion” Reality Sandwich post, I ran into this just after reading your quote:

“The other synchronicity this week was an interview on Dreamland with Michael Hayes, author of Infinite Harmony and the Hermetic Code in DNA, a book just re-republished in the U.S. by Inner Traditions. “He first recognized a common link between all major religions and esoteric doctrines while working in Iran, where he was able to observe the major religions practiced side by side. He believes that the resonance between biology and cosmology shows that life is music, complete with ‘overtones,’ which are strikingly present in the structure of life itself: DNA.”

“sounds” interesting, doesn’t it?

183. lauralupa - September 4, 2008

“…In this day and age, we have so many choices. We can continue to live under outmoded strictures and mores of the past both in terms of knowledge and research and sharing, or a newer form of research and honesty and sharing that is less about blind reaction and more about informed acceptance or rejection. Because we must still exersize that option of rejection. As long as there are people whom – – – should they have great power and would misuse it – – – still we don’t have the right to restrict the power. We all have the right to defend ourselves from such misuse.
And, perhaps, knowing how to defend ourselves does require some instruction from more adept ‘users’. But it doesn’t mean taking the ‘secret’ from their personal lips. The diary of the discoverer can be taken from the stream of publishing the ‘good news’. ‘My path to liberation’, let’s say. And all can read or not read. Accept or reject, as they deem fit. Such may even become ‘scripture’, but as to whether it is understood or not . . .
No one who has ‘pierced’ his or her ‘veil’ has the right to touch the veil of others. We already have this power. No one can confer any right they enjoy and use upon another. That would be a contradiction. How thick is the shell in which you live? You, and only you, find out by digging yourself out. How can another ‘shelled’ being tell you? And I warrant that no being freed from their shell would feel any need to to break your or my shell. Tho’ they might sit on it just to give us some warmth. That’s compassion. Not ‘liberation’. That’s our individual business.
So, I conclude, let it all be known to all who ask. Formerly the rule was: ‘If one doesn’t ask, we don’t tell’ on that basis alone.
Same goes if one asks in a public forum. All hear, but all didn’t ask.
So, they use the excuse of stratification and lack by ‘students’ of ‘jumping’ the hurdles that they, these so-called knowers, had to jump through. I call blankety blank.
And then they call forth something about ‘karma’ and ‘responsibility’ for mis-use of the dialogue of their discovery. Such ‘masters’ tell us that ‘none can hide’ themselves. We are known by all to varying degrees.
All information is flowing outwardly in all directions. Some perceive, some don’t or maybe they just ignore it or throw it out. So, these ‘teachers’ who teach in ‘private’ evidently think only word and deed are public, and thought is private. So, are they hypocrits?
For Jesus, in my opinion, the ‘veil’ was the priestcraft of his day, and the ‘secret’ was divulged by him in the words: all I do, you can do, and greater things.
It was already known that the ‘veil’ referred to a curtain between the place of the ‘Most High’ and the outer court where all the different rituals and symbolic movements took place. And even this ‘Most High’ wasn’t ever referred to directly. ‘The place of the Most High was the place of the ‘Mercy Seat’ or the ‘Ark’ behind the ‘veil’.
Mercy Seat of whom or what? The answer: I AM.
The priestcraft of Jesus day would not even say the ‘Name’ but used ‘Lord’ or ‘Adonai’. Meaning became covered. The ‘key’ was hid. And Jesus said this ‘Name’ out loud, and taught that all he did was by means of this name: ‘I AM’. He never said he was ‘I AM’, but called ‘I AM’ his ‘father’. His very soul. And he said: all I do, you can do. And he said: make my words your own, and do them.
And what does “I AM” mean but consciousness? Maybe not the consciousness we know as ‘outer’ perceivers. Another form of that. A form that CAN and knows it CAN, and then says “I AM” and then DOES.
We are many. ‘That’, we are told, is ONE.
‘I AM our good, is ONE I AM.’
Does this refer to some ‘elite’, or a common understratum or maybe even an ‘original cosmic fact’ such that we can know we CAN without knowing fully what we can do or to what extent ‘that’ is beautiful and infinitely interesting? And maybe it can mean even be infinitely ugly. On this basis alone, I’m sure that the ‘veil’ or what’s behind it can NOT be described simply.
How’s that for a summary of some ‘occult’ interpretation?
Still, it’s not science until we make it so. And we can only make it so for ourselves or some ‘culture’. We cannot reduce our personal experiences into some formula that can direct or be used by others. The key term there being ‘formula’. We CAN talk about first hand experiences, and others can use these to inform their will or thought as they deem fit.
Personally, I think consciousness, anyone’s consciousness is highly worshippable and precious. Each is unique. What would we expect of some ‘infinite’?
If we won’t accord that ‘that’ is precious in another . . . that another is precious, we contradict ourselves. We give ourselves, perhaps, warrant to commit genocide or any form of abominable cruelty.
Or perhaps, even, we are megalomaniacal and that explains that. And we know how these type have helped us along. Right? I have learned how important it is to respect critics and even treasure them. They disabuse us from our tendancy to be such.
While I’m no Hindu, I do respect one aspect from the Upanishads:
“None but the gods know. And, maybe, even they don’t know.”

more interesting ideas from RS. this was written by Rogerscott

184. Opus 111 - September 4, 2008

Daily Cardiac 157

For me the FoF is Influence C’s school. Of course much happens through Robert, but it’s not Robert’s school. If someone feels Robert is the school I would say it’s an ill formed attitude.

You may be aware that this creed of yours goes diametrically opposed to what Board of Directors, President and Council were instructed (more or less directly by the Great One) to propagate: “This is not simply a 4th way school, in fact “we” do not teach and rarely refer to G&O any longer. Those (poor two souls) only had group. Ours is a real school, Robert Burton’s school. It means you need to have a “direct” contact with Robert in order to receive proper instruction on the revelations/instructions he is constantly receiving from Great Influence C. What? Unclear? No, “direct contact” is not that, Dear… It simply means you need to regularly, I mean regularly, attend meetings and dinners. Some of those are open to vouchers, you know. This is Robert’s school, finally.”

This was the instructions given to the faithful leaders, more or less from 2003-2004 to about a year ago. Has it changed again? I doubt it, given the hermetic aspect of current dogma.

So I suggest that you submit your theory (the “ill-formed attitude” part) to Robert Burton and its Sitting Authorities. Who knows? You may become an instant celebrity, if not a prophet in your village.

185. Yesri Baba - September 5, 2008

177

Hey, shit-for-brains, you are not “watching people functioning” you are reading words on a computer screen. If you are that far removed from reality I suggest you unplug, go far out into nature, sit down in the middle of a big field and get a whiff of that big steaming pile of you.

186. Reality Check - September 5, 2008

Here are the circumstances of my continued participation here, the moderator has through email messages using a semi-subtle but increasingly authoritarian tone made it clear that I am a second class citizen here on this blog due to the popular call that I be banned for clobbering the egos of others and causing them to feel unhappy, and as a second-class citizen I do not enjoy the same rights as others. For instance, if someone says to me here on the blog “You’re a dick waving phony” (or something to that effect) I hardly dare reply due to the expectation that I will receive a reminder in my mail that the blog is not in existence for personal attacks. If I’m called a “shithead,” a “shit-for-brains” or what have you, and I retaliate by humbling the one projecting such niceties then I get a semi-mild reminder that my participation here could be curtailed for being confrontational. If I get into a philosophical debate with another excitable posting member of the blog and offer the suggestion that the person is not entirely normal and possibly too self-important then I receive a petty queen-of-hearts reprimand in my email laced with threats to delete parts of my messages. So, if you have something nasty to say to me don’t expect the satisfaction of a reply.

One absolutely sure indication that none of us have been in a “school” designed for producing “consciousness in its participants” are the example of those that somehow end up taking charge of the “octaves” employed by the ex-members.

187. arthur - September 5, 2008

…..”The Infinite or the World of the Absolute which we conceive of as being outside us is on the contrary universal and exists withing us as well as without. There is only One World, and this is It. what we look on as the sensible world, the finite world of time and space, is nothing but a conglomeration of VEILS which hide the Real World. These VEILS are our own senses: our eyes are the VEILS over True Sight, our ears the VEILS over True Hearing, and so it is with the other senses. For us to become aware of the existence of the Real World, the VEILS of the senses must be drawn aside….” Caps mine, words paraphrased from Shaikh Al-Buzidi
Sufi Moslem.

I’m more Forrest Gump than former Fellowship Student but didnt the Bible say that when Jesus the Christ “died” the VEIL was rent asunder?

188. arthur - September 5, 2008

A blunder: words paraphrased from Shaikh Al-Buzidi by Shaikh Al-Alawi.

189. fofblogmoderator - September 5, 2008

186- “One absolutely sure indication that none of us have been in a “school” designed for producing “consciousness in its participants” are the example of those that somehow end up taking charge of the “octaves” employed by the ex-members.”

Thanks for the photograph(s). I’m new at this job and probably far from being the best suited for it. My main focus has been on turning the page at the 300th comment.

190. Reality Check - September 5, 2008

You altered your original post. To the original question: “What about the accolades I paid you?”

You seriously want credit for the carrot and stick approach?

Sincerely, the moderator seems to be a fairly decent guy. I don’t expect anyone doing the job to be a conscious being.

191. Reality Check - September 5, 2008

You are a sincere human being. I see that. Don’t worry about criticism and do what you honestly feel has to be done. No one can fault you for doing your best and you clearly are someone who will strive to do his best.

192. whalerider - September 5, 2008

fofblogmoderator:
Thanks for taking on the job. I’d say we are fairly good at self-moderation here and have in the past for the most part called for a person’s banishment publically on the blog and not in private.

I believe it is apparent when a person is being emotionally abusive versus emotionally demonstrative. And if we set any parameters, we need to apply them equally.

Personally, if I feel someone is intentionally or even unintentionally divulging information that might unmask me for instance, I will email you in private so as not to call more attention to the post in question.

Yes, it is true that this blog is like a public square were anyone can vent their thoughts and feelings, however, that does not include attacks of a personal nature involving derogatory comments about a person’s gender, ethnicity, sexual preferences, bodily parts, percieved intelligence, or threats of bodily harm. If any of us feel personally attacked, then it is up to us to call your attention to it and ask for intervention.

How a person thinks in general terms is fair game for negative emotional feedback, since often there is a disconnect between thoughts and feelings.

If the respondent of a post sticks with how the post in question makes them feel instead of personally attacking the poster and calling them names, then there is a greater chance that the original poster would not take the negative feedback personally and that might prove more useful in realty testing their thinking in contrast with the thoughts and feelings of others.

193. Another Name - September 5, 2008

Dear Vinnie

Never heard of? Study up on the G spot in the vagina for women, you might be able to have more fun and your woman too.
Johnson and Johnson, remember form yars ago, knew already about it.

Good luck

194. Yesri Baba - September 5, 2008

186 Diaper boy

“If I’m called a “shithead,” a “shit-for-brains” or what have you, and I retaliate by humbling the one projecting such niceties…”

Dude, you are soooo dreaming.

195. Reality Check - September 5, 2008

Indications of Psychological Unconsciousness

“The process of transforming the substances which enter the organism into finer ones is governed by the law of octaves.

“Let us take the human organism in the form of a three-story factory. The upper floor of this factory consists of a man’s head; the middle floor, of the chest; and the lower, of the stomach, back, and the lower part of the body.” –In Search of the Miraculous

The third food, the term the Fourth Way uses to refer to the reflected light perceived by the eyes, the sounds heard through the ears, possibly the more refined sensations that come into our awareness through the skin, through the nerve plexuses and other organs of the physical body, possibly even the associations and intentional thoughts and feelings produced internally within the centers, all feed the psychological side of the machine. The third food stimulates and nourishes the emotional center, it energizes the emotional story in general, it creates associations in the instinctive-moving story and offers the possibility for transformation of incoming impressions into the finer and higher thoughts, feelings and sensations perceived by and produced in the intellectual story.

One of the reasons the possibility for the transformation of impressions into the finer and higher psychic activity of the intellectual story is so seldom realized is that the eliminative function used to rid waste products from the psychology is inordinately active in modern citizens. The eliminative function is so active that undigested impressions, what would otherwise serve as psychological fuel, are eliminated along with the waste produced as a residue by the basic processes in the psychology.

Modern personalities eject much of the finer energies that enter their awareness before there is a chance for digestion. The instinctive-moving story of the emotional center is for the most part the over-used function for psychological elimination. Chiefly this elimination takes place through the process of directionless, aimless and pointless talking and emoting.

It is unnecessary emotionally motivated talk that creates much of the negativity in the environment. Such talk is under the law of accident. Words are exchanged without aim, without the use of the intellectual story of the factory, and invariably misunderstandings arise that lead to conflict. An aimless octave is eventually a descending octave; when friends begin to talk from the instinctive-moving story of the machine then sooner or later the discussion will falter and end up on a point of disagreement. From there the intensity of the words will accelerate into the negative side of the emotional story.

Asking people to cease unnecessary talk is precisely like asking them to remember themselves, because that is what it would take to accomplish such a feat. People exist in their instinctive-moving story for the most part and therefore have no possibility of digesting and refining impressions enough to energize attention at the level of the intellectual story; they have to talk to rid themselves of the unused material coming in through their centers that they can find no higher intelligent use for. During rambling discussion eventually one or another person is accidentally offended and the expenditure of energy accelerates to the emotional story, the realm of hostile judgments.

For those habitually existing in the instinctive-moving story most of their activity is simply stimulus-response. An individual hears or reads some words, mixes them with his emotional accounts against the speaker or writer, or against the expressed thought and ideas, or he merely mixes what is said with associative material already in his centers and then replies with an opposing argument or a tangential elaboration using nothing more deliberate to guide his thoughts than the initiative of the formatory apparatus.

Average humans do not remember themselves because they don’t make an effort to create an intentional space between the automatic reaction of their lower centers and an intelligently calculated response formulated by their intellectual parts of centers. The creation of such a pause for the intervention of deliberate intelligence over ‘gut reaction’ is the first degree of self-remembering, It is the very first effort of separation of the lower from the higher that is required for the generation of self-awareness. One of the reasons average citizens fail to create such a psychological space for separation is because they really do not possess any vital information to relay to others. The casual protocol is such that one personality expresses an opinion just to take space in the awkward silence created by inner considering and then the other personalities respond based solely on the advancement or the defense of the world-view they inadvertently borrowed from other personalities along the way.

It can be readily observed that men do not remember themselves and therefore possess no inherent state of self-consciousness; this fact can be easily and correctly assessed by the observed detail that the majority of speakers never express themselves from the quality of the intellectual story. Expressions from most speakers are the product of the instinctive-moving story and come filtered through an identifiable false personality, through an easily recognizable artificial ego installed in them as an unconscious habit during the process of socializing with other people that also had and have no idea of the necessity for inner psychological work in order to produce anything of quality.

Such a psychological artifact, an artificial ego, an involuntary personality that is unaware of its own reactions much less the origin of those reactions, is something that is usually made passive during the most basic phase of inner psychological work and without such internal work involuntary personality animates men’s reactions entirely. This perceptibly self-satisfied functioning from the mentality of personality contains a discernable lack of conscience. The indicator of false personality is a certain underlying pride or conceit around the content and the expression of the various opinions the individual in question has accumulated. This is what makes this level of personality artificial; it borrows its mannerisms, its figures of speech, what it says and why it says it from those individuals that made a strong impression on it throughout its life. The precise person and the precise moment the opinion or mannerism was adopted through imitation is long forgotten, but the relic is left in the active personality of the speaker.

Any manifestation of conscience within the circumstances of this typical psychological condition would probably be initially only a vague desire originating from the distance of the intellectual story of the emotions that wishes to discontinue the ongoing externalizing activity of the instinctive-moving story as it compulsively usurps and eliminates all the necessary energy required for the generation of intelligence. Conscience would question the sentiment of self-satisfaction produced when repeating the imitated attitudes acquired from others while pretending that they are original.

Human beings have the possibility of intelligence and the possibility itself seeks to be fulfilled, each must to some degree willfully ignore and resist this inherent aspiration for quality in order to continue with the wrong work of the instinctive-moving story as it eliminates accumulated impressions from the centers and avoids experiencing the genuine sensation of human contact.. Each has to choose to feed the gratification of conceit when employing an artificial social appliance that allows the expression of superficial emotion as a barrier between casually interacting fabrications of self-esteem.

196. Yesri Baba - September 5, 2008

Question: Which would a reasonable person conclude is most likely?

Someone is kicked off numerous websites and blogs for being an irredeemably malignant prick. He then tries time and again to get back on to continue the same behavior only to be put on notice again.
Are these the actions of someone who has achieved personal freedom and wisdom from 20+ years of study and practice of an effective system of knowledge? Or does it seem the behavior of someone stuck in the tyrannical labyrinth of a persona which by it’s very example proves that system faulty or at least misunderstood?

Answer: DUH?

197. Rear View Mirror - September 5, 2008

It’s the 40th anniversary of the Beatles song “Revolution”. Was recorded in the summer of 1968.

“You tell me it’s the institution… Well, you know… You better free your mind instead.”

198. Daily Cardiac - September 5, 2008

Opus 111 – 184:

How can it be Robert’s school? Is he omnipotent? He doesn’t arrange my friction. He doesn’t arrange my moments of transformation. He doesn’t intervene if I act like a fool or a wise man.

If it’s Robert’s school it can’t be a school. An esoteric school can’t be controlled by a mortal; that’s exactly what’s impossible.

199. Ill Never Tell - September 5, 2008

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again
and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Though this be madness, yet there is method in ‘t.
William Shakespeare
(That’s why they call it ‘Method Acting.’
Enough to give you stage fright!)

When dealing with the insane,
the best method is to pretend to be sane.
(Again, that’s why they call it ‘Method Acting.’)
Hermann Hesse

200. Ellen - September 5, 2008

#198, Daily Card

So I gather that it is your perception that Robert is not in control of the School?

Who then kicks people out? Who determines the emphasis and content of the teaching? Who tells you to watch out for the Lower Self? Who teaches you exactly what the content and structure of the Lower Self is? Who tells you which esoteric sources are OK to read and which to avoid? Who interprets esoteric ideas and images and tells you how to understand them?

If you want to get technical, what is the meaning of control?
What is the meaning of School?

201. Ill Never Tell - September 5, 2008

Eureka! Hermetically Sealed means a place where vacuum exists. That is, where nothing exists. That is the Hermetic Way. Doing Nothing is easier than Being Nothing. Being Nothing is a whole other matter, or rather, non-matter. Though this be madness, yet there is method in ‘t.

There is no true vacuum anywhere. Not even in the remotest part of outer space. The only true vacuum is in your mind – right between your ears. Seek and Ye shall find. That is the Hermetic Way.

Hermetic also means impervious to outside influence. Sounds more like FoF to me. Except FoF is also impervious to inside influence, as well. That is See Influence.

202. Ellen - September 5, 2008

Lauralupa, this one is for you since you like nautical analogies (I do, too).

“People, as waves in the sea, are born, have high and low points, collide with each other and die. As waves they crash against the shore then retreat, exhausted, looking for tranquility and peace. Just as people search the for the Most High in many ways.

Waves are born, live and die in the sea. It is exactly the same relationship of people towards God. Waves are nothing but water.
The sea is nothing other than water. Exactly so are man and God nothing but Sat, Chit, Ananda (Being-Consciousness-Bliss).

When the waves are ready to recognize that the sea is the common ground of their existence, then all resistance is over. Not much more is needed, though the last word is yet to be spoken. There is still work to do in releasing the feeling of separation. When men recognize themselves as water, both waves and sea disappear.
What seemed two is now realized as one. Water can immediately be found in the wave by following the direct path. When the path through the sea is taken much more time is required.”

– Sri Krishna Menon

203. Draco - September 5, 2008

200, Ellen
“So I gather that it is your perception that Robert is not in control of the School?

Who then kicks people out? Who determines the emphasis and content of the teaching? Who tells you to watch out for the Lower Self? Who teaches you exactly what the content and structure of the Lower ”

Dorian.

204. Rear View Mirror - September 5, 2008

To re-phrase what Ellen is getting at, the question is always, “Who can be held most accountable?”

So, you want people to believe, “Some other guy”? Uh… No.

Next topic.

205. whalerider - September 5, 2008

“If it’s Robert’s school it can’t be a school.”

How true.

However, your life is your life and how you choose to react to your friction is up to you. Did you think your friction would end if you stop making mandatory ‘donations’ to the FOF? I got news for you! Life is change and change is friction.

Whether or not you are a member of Robert’s rape factory, once you make efforts toward your aim (first force), no matter what it is, you have ‘arranged’ friction (second force) for yourself. This isn’t rocket science here, ask anyone who is self-employed. The third force will always come in the most unexpected way.

Do you honestly think for one second that the three forces of nature exist only for members of the FOF. How could they? Verify it for yourself!

Have you not attained enough wisdom through your sufferings yet to continue the process of transformation by yourself, for yourself? If not, then maybe you don’t even have a self to remember.

BTW, your transformation process is not ‘arranged’ as you say, it takes personal effort on your part. Otherwise, you are just waiting for roast pigeons to fly into your mouth.

206. unoanimo - September 5, 2008

[If] the mailings are true, I’d like to announce the movement away from this Earth of Gregory Bl__e… May your most incredible and generous smile blossom all over you. Thank you Gregory for helping with the translation of Olga’s poetry.

And thank you for the deepening of those footprints on the shore when you picked up your world as only an Atlas would and carried it, toppling sandcastles, bridges, umbrellas and vacant lounge chairs, anything to get it out there, to the horizon, where the sun could finally kiss it awake.
_______________________________

A Mailing Quote From the Non-Attached List ~

“Dear friends

This is what lLudmilla wrote me today and she told me that Gregory had his funeral today. Some ex students were there. She wish to share this information.

Ludmila called me yesterday and told about Gregory.
I was visit him in St.Petersburg in August. He was very lonely. Was few ex students around. When he was in FOF and was in a hospital (no one came to visit him). I think it was also a big inpact. He told me that for all this years in a School he has few friends (who was contacted him). He has a cancer. I am glad that I had a chance to say good buy to him. (Ludmila told me that it is not much time left for him).

I wish good travel for his soul.

Ludmila

———–

Gregory,

Do I remember even knowing that you were in the hospital? Maybe it was after I left the FOF; I simply do not know, though feel I would not have missed this opportunity to see you: I know you’re out there… Shine bright, Light to Light. Love to you Gregory.

207. elena - September 5, 2008

Yes Vinnie, I actually have.
An orgasm happens when two bodies contract and expand involuntarily out of a force that is not directed by the mind. It is a very amazing experience and it is recognized as healthy orgiastic potency. Most of us don’t have it and to be very honest with you, it has only happened once with a man who wanted to work for it as much as I did. “Work” is not the term for it is “love” what makes it possible too but for most men who like you think women don’t even come and that ejaculating externally is an orgasm, they never even bother to consider the possibility of an inner expansion of the semen throughout the body which is very common in original forms of yoga.

You can understand it a little if you can picture it with throwing up although throwing up is the same process but upside down and backwards. In it, the body is getting rid of poison but the natural contractions to expell the poison are an expression of its healthy condition. {It is very interesting to realize here that what the Fellowship repressed from us was basically the possibility to throw up no matter how poisoned we were with its brainwashing. Our psychological processes obey the same laws our bodies obey. We have been literally walking around filled with poison but holding it and trying to convince ourselves that it is the elixir of eternal life but the body knows better: instead of awakening or becoming more human we get cancers, strokes, chronic fatigue, chronic depression and die perfectly corrupted}

Of course an orgasm is very different to throwing up but it helps to understand that we can have involuntary contractions in the body and that we experience tremendous relief after. When both bodies go into that wave of contractions it is like an Ocean moving in unison between the two people and they become a unity for a period of time. They are seconds, perhaps a minute but there is a harmony with the Universe after in which gratitude and joy, integrity and a sense of enlightenment invade you. Not at all like the desire to smoke after the guy who just got off on you finishes.

I hope you have the opportunity to experience it one day. Reich mentions that were we healthy we would be able to have something like three thousand such orgasms in our lifetime but I’ve only had one so I think I need a few lifetimes to catch up with being healthy and finding someone healthy enough willing to work with it! In fact, I think our marriages are mostly descending octaves basically because instead of replenishing each other with enlightenment we deplete each other’s sex energy with all forms of depleting each other’s energy. We are our own best enemies.

Greg, I’m afraid I hardly read you anymore because you’re not interested in a dialogue but I read your post on being a second hand citizen here and you are definitely under surveillance. Since you have a pattern of becoming abusive and a theory to justify it, you are not in the same condition in which others here are trying to function even if we sometimes become abusive. So I hope you keep up the hard work and don’t get abusive no matter how justified you feel about it. Thanks Steve for putting up with all of us. If we pay any money to animam recro will you receive any of it? For me it is a job and would think nothing of paying something for it but if we just want to volunteer for a while and keep changing moderators when you get tired, it seems fine. Maybe Greg could become moderator soon with the condition that if you get abusive you also get banned and out! But I guess not many would understand the mercies of such strategy which is fine!

I’m also falling much out of the blog. The connection with the Fellowship seems to have come to an end and there is no longer any anger or feeling of being poisoned. When I participate it is because there is a relationship with those participating now. I’ve also found other people to talk to so talking only here seems less necessary. I’m very grateful for having had this medium to resolve a lot of the things that needed processing at least for myself and to those participating for their insights.

208. elena - September 5, 2008

Correction: “I think our marriages are mostly descending octaves basically because instead of replenishing each other with enlightenment we deplete each other’s sex energy with all forms of depleting each other’s energy. We are our own best enemies”

for:

….we deplete each other’s energy with all forms of depleting each other’s sex energy (as in the expression of negative emotions, ejaculation instead of innoculation!!!)

Interesting that this is precisely what gets damaged with our unhealthy relationship to our own selves or first line and our unhealty relationship to society, third line. But it is very common in a society in which people just survive and not live, working instinctively to make money and not doing the work their essence would most benefit from. Then the marriage, in which these outer “lines” are meant to be renewed, also becomes a hell for the couple.

209. Daily Cardiac - September 5, 2008

Ellen – 200:

First, I could have called myself Daily Card if I had wanted that moniker. DC is fine with me.

I think your personal bias against Robert is clouding your understanding of the role of a “teacher” in theory, or principle.

If we can go back for a moment to a thread of late which I guess I was instrumental in bringing up, and that is “As Above, so Below”, the issue can be further expressed.

If you consider the role of a teacher in a normal, everyday sense you will agree that they have the right to “kick someone out” of their class.

A higher teacher, called a principal, can go farther and kick someone out of the school if deemed necessary.(please don’t take this analogy too far as it, like all analogies, will surely break down. I know the parents can sue the school, etc.)

Regular teachers also determine the “emphasis and content”

They also determine the textbooks to be used (“Who tells you which esoteric sources are OK to read and which to avoid?”)

They also interpret for the student if they feel the student is off track in their thinking, at least the good ones. The bad ones might just let the student fail and not bother to correct them. – (“Who interprets esoteric ideas and images and tells you how to understand them?”)

Without someone in “control” in a normal classroom setting there would be chaos, not order. In an esoteric setting it is more critical because chaos there is harder to recognize.

What you are really saying is that you did not go along with Robert’s decisions, methods, exercises, style, bedside manner, etc. Which is your right. You did after all exercise your right to leave.

But you can’t reasonably say he does not function as a “teacher” in the general sense of the word. All teachers are essentially intermediaries. In an esoteric school the “principal, board, funding agent, etc. are all invisible, unheard, unknown but to a few, so trust in the teacher is paramount.

Giving up one’s will is a bitter pill to all, some more than others, but in this business there is no way around it. Good judgment can prevent someone from giving up their will to a charlatan. Bad judgment might lead to someone not giving up their will to a real teacher. But the issue of “control” cannot be avoided.

I enjoyed your description of a higher state experience a couple of pages back. I’ve had those just like you described. When I had them it only caused me to put Robert in the center of it all, whereas for you they appear to have caused you to take Robert out of the equation.

I’m not saying you’re wrong and I’m right. If I’m saying anything it’s that I’m where I want to be and where I feel my chances for spiritual development are greatest.

210. Another Name - September 5, 2008

Please Unanimo,

No use of names….

211. Reality Check - September 5, 2008

Anyone allowed the power to sell you a sense of your Self has the power to take that self away.

212. elena - September 5, 2008

Daily Cardiac: “Giving up one’s will is a bitter pill to all, some more than others, but in this business there is no way around it.”

Your premises are totally upside down and backwards. Giving up one’s will to another man’s is not what leads people to consciousness, what allows people to develop themselves is to develop their own will. Will is what people who have not worked on themselves do not have, we live functioning under what ever programming we were brought up with. If we change that programming for somoene else’s, like in the Fellowship, we are not only not developing ourselves, we are deepening the obstacles to awakening. Will is what no one in the Fellowship of Friends has. Everyone is a slave to Robert. A slave is also someone who works against his own well being for someone else. You are a good example of this. Your world limits itself to you and your logic. You have no conscience or consciousness.

Will is the capacity to act against your programming for a higher right that you’ve chosen to live by. Cults develop so easily because people naively believe they are giving up their programming for a higher right but in giving them selves up for the well being of the Cult leader and Cult, they loose their connection with their own centers or common sense and start functioning for the Cult against themselves functioning like a cancer does. They seem very coherent outwardly but inwardly they are full of inconsistencies.

In the Fellowship this is clear in the fact that when they come out like you to do their “show” they seem so coherent but when they are out of the show, they turn the channel into porn, violence and other expressions of what is nothing but an infra-life filled with infra-sex. They do not have normal social relationships. They cannot establish satisfactory sexual practices. They cannot experience love or tenderness of gentleness. They are harsh dogmatic automatons disguised with a sheep clothing, just like you. Many of the members don’t even think about sex any more, they’ve settled for being like nuns and priests hiding their sexuality because they feel they are not good enough for anyone to value them.

You defend such a sad place with such pitiful theories Daily Cardiac. Only one who has indoctrinated himself for a long time could think he is doing the right thing but you like most of the others inside are just terrified of your own misery, your own insignificance and the fact that you have sold your soul to a man practicing black magic that is living on other people’s life energies. Drinking the boys semen is the blatant expression of that but he lives on every one of the members subtle bodies by spending their money and feeding on their trust.

Will is real I determining how to act for the well being of the whole including you. In the Fellowship, only Robert Burton’s well being is taken into account. But he’ll burn in hell for ever with what people think is his well being together with his inner circle and the full blown idiots that follow them.

You have no will, you are just a slave but you have to keep justifying your self with these theories so that you can continue to abuse your position in the Fellowship and feed on members and new member’s energy. Giving you any positive feed-back here is as dangerous as giving it to Greg. You, like him, only answer the posts that you can tackle with. Fellowship members like you have gone beyond the human obstacle to a point in which you no longer try to fight and work with them, you try to justify and reproduce them, you build a mental structure to justify it. It is no different to Greg in his adaptation of feminine dominance to his whole interpretation of men being emasculated by women. Once people start making up theories to justify their deranged lives, then the possibility of working with it is nulified.That is why the System states that people must at least be “normal” or good householders. If not, essence has corrupted almost completely and false personality goes into full bloom. The same energy and functions needed to develop true personality function to develop false personality. The external and social expression of that takes form and Cults develop as well as other forms of social orders. The danger with Cults is that they take hold of the higher subtle bodies of the human being and the corruption is spiritually justified like it is in theories of higher beings deserving higher priviledges, in fascism as a higher race, in the Fellowship, as Robert being a man number eight and therefor deserving such priviledges.

You are dangerous people and you are a dangerous man. You are saying that being where you want is right and that supporting the sexual, economic, emotional and intellectual abuse of hundreds of people will help you develop spiritually. Only the DEVIL would make such a statement and you are as evil as he is.

213. nigel harris price - September 5, 2008

Defuse Me

If I were a bomb
ready to explode
if I have become
dangerous to your life,
then you must take care of me,
but how?
I am here, right in your midst.
(You cannot remove me from your life.)
And I may explode
at anytime.
I need your care.
I need your time.
I need you to defuse me
because you have made the vow
(and I heard it) to love and to care.

I know that to take care of me
you need much patience,
much coolness.
I realize that in you
there is also a bomb to be defused.
So why don’t we help each other?

I need you to listen to me
No one understands my suffering,
including the ones who say they love me.
The pain inside me
is suffocating me.
It is the TNT that makes up the bomb.
There is no one else
who will listen to me.
That is why I need you.
But you seem to be getting away from me.
You want to run for your safety,
the kind of safety
that does not exist.

I have not created my own bomb.
It is you.
It is society.
It is family.
It is school.
It is tradition.
So please don’t blame me for it;
Come and help;
if not, I will explode.
This is not a threat.
It is only a plea for help
when it is your turn.

— Thich Nhat Hanh

214. Ames Gilbert - September 5, 2008

I was going through boxes of things yesterday, preparing to move into a smaller storage space, and I came across two binders I’d filled on 4th Way topics and some letters I had mislaid. Rereading the contents of one of those letters all these years later moved me to key it in and post it here. I’ll leave it anonymous (though I think it is relevant to point out the writer is female), since I don’t know how to contact her to ask permission.

I dedicate the effort it took to transcribe this letter to the proposition that you, Daily Cardiac, and all the others like you will one day write ones similar.
____________________________________________________________

July 20, 1995

Dear Ames,
Two months ago you kindly replied to my inquiry after I had spoken with Nancy. I wrote you immediately. And then had second thoughts. I do not want to bore you with the details of my sojourn (18 years) in the Fellowship. I also became depressed—all over again—about the situation there. Another factor was my feeling of hopelessness overwhelmed me—one which became a constant for me in those years. I always felt I had not much to offer that anyone would want to hear. Now I have decided to give this letter another try. I had written down many thoughts, I’ll try to distill.

I’d like to preface this by saying sincerely that I learned much there. Very many valuable lessons. I grew a lot—in 18 years I hope I would have, anyway—but I feel that the 4th Way was a real gift in my personal search.

Also, I’d like to mention that I tried many times to speak about what I was seeing and feeling there. Nobody wanted to hear me. I was met with much negativity, accused of negativity—I felt like people would have liked to stone me—(Let me state strongly here that I do not feel that speaking the truth is negative (even if the news is negative). I was told if I didn’t agree, I should leave. This struck me as about the same mentality as “America—love it or leave it.”

Then I want to say how deeply sorry I feel that so many have suffered at R’s hand. There is enough pain, suffering and shame on this planet without Robert adding more. This not the Work. It was my own suffering over all this that led to the emergence of my true conscience. At this, I met the aim of school according to O. in the 4th Way. And so have many of us who have left. So this experience can’t be all bad.

Now here are a few thoughts and perceptions regarding the Fellowship, the people and Robert:
The Fellowship is a large dysfunctional family consisting of spaniels, broken–winged swans and sycophants; with the “children” refusing (or unable) to discuss openly—even with each other—the sins of the “father.” Although I (intentionally) had nothing personal to do with R, his doings touched me very deeply. When I began to awaken to what was really happening, such pain—grief—I felt I was losing everything. Angry at being deceived, sick at the lowness of it all. Slowly it dawned on me that this loss was necessary to acquire just what I had (unknowingly) come to the school for; Disillusionment. For my illusions to die. Had I not sworn to myself that I would do whatever I had to, face whatever might come, to reach my aim? In the beginning, back in 1974, I had but a vague idea of what that might be. I stopped raging and crying and did just as you suggest—embraced the crumbling of my illusions. This is certainly a brutal process and it took about five years to walk through this completely (maybe I’m slow).

By the time I was ready to leave, I felt that I had been through fire. Purified. This was a time of hard work.

I appreciated your letter, Ames, and agree with much of what you say. However, I do wonder why you care about R’s “possibilities” or his “chance to ask for help…” May I be so blunt to say, Why care? There is simply no chance for a man such as Robert, and he surely has no care for his followers. I was amazed that people apparently were unaware of the insults, disrespect and outright scorn R. exhibited for all over the years. That people are so inured to abuse is sad testament to the human condition.

Robert is a killer. His form of violence kills souls—souls’ possibilities; puts “stumbling blocks.” When a person kills souls, he kills not only his immediate victim, but he kills all those in that person’s sphere. All lose; all souls are irreparably damaged. He kills himself. WE must now see R. as a dead man. The living dead. An insatiable vampire, feeding nightly. Sucking the life from his unknowing, sleeping victims. He cannot be reborn and therefore must continue feeding.

Let the dead bury the dead.

In those five years (’87 to 11-92), I saw and struggled (against my conscience!) while I heard the stories of friends suffering directly and indirectly from this abuse. I could no longer lie to myself. What is, is. What a person is, is. Not maybe something else. Things are what they are. Not perhaps something else. Murder is murder. Not maybe just a sharp shaking. Killers are often “sweet tongued,” and just because everyone is grinning and scratching does not mean maybe all is OK. Rapists are rapists. Even when they have fooled their victims into believing their lies, i.e., “you know you wanted it,” “you seduced me,” etc. We must call things by their right names—not euphemisms. I wrote something for News from Abroad on this idea and received photographs about my “hatred and judgment.” I feel we must learn to distinguish being judgmental from having judgment and discerning.
“Let him who has eyes, see
Who has ears, hear
Who has a tongue, to speak
(the truth)

All things, all occurrences, have their intrinsic truth. We must continually ask ourselves, “Do I believe that?” and “What is the meaning of this?” Say the words. “The truth shall set you free.” G. said, “Name the devil to cast him out.” Once we get into the habit of truth telling (I call this my “see–say” exercise”), we will learn the taste of truth. The taste of lies. Lies keep us asleep. Internal lies. External lies. Acceptance of lies. Quiescence in the face of lies. Our sleep is made up of lies. It may hurt to face the lies, but we must understand deeply that lies kill. Truth gives life. I am so grateful that finally, truth makes me smile.

We are so small and weak, we lie to ourselves (to escape pain) and to others (because we are cowards). How long have we existed with lies? Do we have the courage to live with truth? For myself, I no longer have a choice.

We need to awaken to the works of man; to the superstitions he has created (to subjugate himself). And to those who have employed those superstitions to their own advantage and self–service. Name Robert among those exploiters. He gave us many superstitions. Superstitions are lies that keep up asleep. Name them. The man that uses others’ superstitions (or the ones he has deliberately implanted) to his own gain is asleep. The conscious person will not take advantage of the sleeping.

Letting go is not just a decision—it is a process—towards adultness. People have been hanging on in desperation and fear. It will take more strength to let go than it took to hang on. But the reward is big. Does all this sound melodramatic? Well, I was so shaken by all I saw that I feel strong words are necessary.

Three years ago, I predicted it would be announced that Girard (The Tin Man) is “man #5.” For several political reasons. One being that this might “give hope.” Another to front for R. Girard will believe his press.

(snip)

R. has perverted the real works in his own self–service, i.e., “no gossip.” This has effectively kept people from exchanging real information about what is happening and telling their own stories. To speak your story and tell your truth is not gossiping. This “not gossiping” keeps people away from each other and in the dark—right where R. wants them. We must use our valuable judgment. We must judge what we support. I’d also like to say that this aspect really kept me from having any real friends in the F. I felt as I looked around that perhaps it was not possible to be a friend there—only friendly. I spoke to a few that I did know well, and they agreed. It is hard to really be a friend or have a friend if you cannot speak from your heart. Proper pleasantries have their place, it wasn’t too fulfilling—there always seemed to be an invisible wall. Ideological rhetoric is a solvent to truth. We must ask what we want. What do we demand? Who we give our personal power away to. We must face our own neediness and weakness. Our Fascist nature. People have demanded a leader outside of themselves. People believed and accepted R.’s assertions about himself—why? They believed that he was holy. I never did, and felt embarrassed when people expressed this.

When I first saw R. at Skyline Church back in 1975, I knew immediately that he was gay. What did I care? I never even thought to mention this to anybody. I grew up in Hollywood, and my mother hand many gay friends whom I knew well all my life. They were always kind to me and I loved them—the men and the women. So I made no judgment on this—it didn’t seem an issue. My philosophy was: I don’t psychically enter R.’s bedroom and he should not enter mine. This included “students,” who, by the way, did all the time apparently wish to enter mine.

So my grievance is not about homosexuality. It is about abuse.

At first I felt it was none of my business what R. did, and I assumed that if young men were having relations with him that they must be gay. I have no problem with affectionate consent. But too often over the years, I heard those words—“That is not my business”—and—“I am not being hurt, so this is not my concern” and “Well, if men go to bed with Robert, they must like it, so it is not for me to judge,” and” Yes, So and So was crying to me about this abuse, but I have no sympathy—he knew what he was doing,” and on…

When our friends are being hurt, it is our business. When a friend comes to us for help and advice, and we turn our back, we are seeking only to protect ourselves. I was in pain because I knew I was supporting abuse. When R. turned angry young men on the women, who were then abused physically and mentally, their tears were my own. I feared for their health and life. And all this was being denied, even by those directly affected.

Ames, you and the others have done the right thing by finally speaking out. But I have found that people can only hear and heed when they are able and psychologically ready. Till that time, their morass of denial will keep them. Recently I visited with a friend in the F. I said nothing about anything, but I heard the realignment in her voice as she spoke about “when we build our house there next year.” I am afraid for her and her little family, and feel I cannot watch any longer. I’ve said all I can for years now. One reaches a point when one just knows not to say any more. I have seen too much and I feel tired and sickened.

When we see some things, we can be sure that there is much more that we can’t see. Things do not happen in isolation—there is always something deeper.

And finally, regarding Robert:
Perpetrators always blame their victims and almost never admit to the abuse—never mind apologize. So what’s new? Unfortunately, that leaves the (already weakened) victim to speak the truth. To acknowledge the truth, to see that he is not to blame. And then to muster the strength to confront the perpetrator. Healing can only take place in the light of truth–telling and often we are on our own with our healing. Robert is no saint, no “bright light,” no “conscious being.” Just a man. A man with deep and deepening pathologies.

R. could not have committed such crimes against his followers without their compliance and tacit approval—so everyone must share the blame here. And no we must work with letting go of bitterness, which will only consume us.

Also, we don’t need to be concerned or understanding about R.’s childhood or whatever happened to him. So what? No excuse.

Well, Ames, I hope I haven’t been a big weight here; I just felt I should say something, too. People have not been as alone as they thought. And at the same time more alone than they might have been had there been more openness and trust. As I said, the whole business made be sad. And mad.

Now that I’ve been gone 2 1/2 years, I feel as though a big burden has been lifted. Time does heal, but it does not dull my memory.

I will be interested in any new developments.
In friendship,

______________________________________________________________

Note by Ames: If I remember correctly, News from Abroad was a subscription newsletter published by Girard. It started as Letter from London when he co-directed that center, then changed names when he returned to Oregon House.

215. arthur - September 5, 2008

“Another attribute of the SLAVE is deafness. Thou art now deaf, O SLAVE, and Hearing is not in thy nature. God is the Hearer, and it is by attributing this faculty unto thyself that thou art deaf”……….

Shaikh Ahmad al-Alawi (sufi Moslem)

216. Vena - September 5, 2008

Thank you Ames for posting that moving letter.

217. whalerider - September 5, 2008

elena:
“…what allows people to develop themselves is to (allow them to) develop their own will…Will is what no one in the Fellowship of Friends has. Everyone is a slave to Robert….a slave is also someone who works against his (or her) own well being…”

Bravo! Doesn’t the FOF dogma make you feel sick to your stomach, like throwing up? It does me. It’s revolting, like being offered rotting garbage for a meal on a fancy plate. And followers are fed that crap day after day until their senses become dull, and they just don’t care about themselves anymore.

DC:
“If we can go back for a moment to a thread of late which I guess I was instrumental in bringing up, and that is “As Above, so Below”…”

It strikes me as typical FOF style that you are taking credit for introducing an idea that doesn’t belong to you or for quoting someone else. As above, so below? You mean like father, like son.

218. Mick Danger - September 5, 2008

Make no mistake, Grampa Bobby is not gay, he is a sexual predator.
His chosen victims are always “straight” men, no homosexuals allowed, never a “willing” partner, let alone a loving partner.
He gets his jollies hurting people and is a sadistic son-of-a-bitch.

219. Rear View Mirror - September 5, 2008

Other than that, he’s cool.

220. Rear View Mirror - September 5, 2008

So, after that 1995 letter, posted by Ames in 214… It will be a few more pages of chatting back and forth, debating the Fourth Way, debating this, and debating that. It will be dozens of posts from the PR Team trying to change the subject, trying to divert the attention away from the FOF, away from Burton. Not everything here is worth a read (understatement of the hour) but I hope that letter resonates with everyone. Worth reposting again and again.

221. Reality Check - September 5, 2008

(Warning: change of subject)

Sample announcement:

To All My Old Classmates (that think I have failed),

I AM in the fourth state of consciousness!

Yeah, it wasn’t hard either. All I had to do was read a book by “His Endlessness” Nashramblerqi and meet a few gurus that make their living promoting something that can never be sold.

***

To have a private thought like this would simply be a forgivable and random manifestation of ego that could easily be ignored. To post what amounts to the same thing on an internet blog and an internet social group is clearly a desperate plea from vanity for recognition and reinforcement from the world in order to prop up an insecure sense of self-worth. Such a claim anxiously hopes to serve as proof that “I’m SOMETHING because I have attained the highest possible.” What it actually amounts to is a buffer maintaining the state of imagination that was always there all through consciousness school embodied in the following attitude: I’m a winner at the game of life! This typical telltale Western competitive mindset is a sure giveaway that there is no consciousness there. It is doubtful that people actually moving through the world experiencing a state of consciousness that merges them with the all-ness of everything would still be concerned about what others (that are now a small portion of the incorporation of everything within them) think of that one identity once located in a specific body with a particular name.

The entire propaganda campaign has obviously been a superficiality of misperception from the trifling aptitude of the instinctive-moving story of the emotional center and as such it is pitiful. No one is beyond the ego while the ego is still singing the praises of its “consciousness” to others. I don’t really condemn “non-dualism” itself because I have not yet studied it and I plan to, but those that have been boisterously advocating it here probably do not understand it either and have been doing the teaching an disservice by “lying” about it.

222. Rear View Mirror - September 5, 2008

lol of course. oh infallible one.

223. paulshabram - September 6, 2008

R.C.
In the Hall of Mirrors, which is the real you? I truly hope you find out.

224. paulshabram - September 6, 2008

elena 207
“I’m also falling much out of the blog. The connection with the Fellowship seems to have come to an end and there is no longer any anger or feeling of being poisoned. When I participate it is because there is a relationship with those participating now. I’ve also found other people to talk to so talking only here seems less necessary. I’m very grateful for having had this medium to resolve a lot of the things that needed processing at least for myself and to those participating for their insights.”

If ever there was an example of self healing and exercising will, you have demonstrated it here, on the picket, and in court. It is really inspiring.

225. Rear View Mirror - September 6, 2008

People worked diligently on the fof wikipedia page several months ago to re-write fof history. They systematically deleted numerous paragraphs that painted a negative picture of Burton and the FOF. They replaced those paragraphs with a false history of the cult. And effort like this is what’s known as misinformation. Eventually, the wikipedia page was locked because of the editing war, and the negative information about the fof was hidden.

People with money use that money to make sure there’s a positive spin on their “activities”, and to make sure they’re able to keep that money and keep their power. It’s nothing new.

So we have misinformation on the blog, too… “Don’t look here. Look over there. Ignore this serious issue. Let’s talk about anything but that. Let’s engage people in conversations about other topics, and reduce the entire blog to one big argument.”

Hey, it works.

You see this same idiocy in “life.” So there’s no escaping it by leaving the fof. But it’s also good to see there’s no escaping it by joining the fof either. The FOF is… no different from life. And in many ways, it’s worse.

http://mediamatters.org/about_us/

“Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media.

“Launched in May 2004, Media Matters for America put in place, for the first time, the means to systematically monitor a cross section of print, broadcast, cable, radio, and Internet media outlets for conservative misinformation — news or commentary that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda — every day, in real time.

“Using the website http://www.mediamatters.org as the principal vehicle for disseminating research and information, Media Matters posts rapid-response items as well as longer research and analytic reports documenting conservative misinformation throughout the media. Additionally, Media Matters works daily to notify activists, journalists, pundits, and the general public about instances of misinformation, providing them with the resources to rebut false claims and to take direct action against offending media institutions.”

226. Reality Check - September 6, 2008

“misinformation on the blog” “talk about anything but that”

Hitler, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite were all bad guys too, far worse than Burton (so far). Why aren’t we railing against them every minute of the day? None of these dangerous kooks’ teachings had/have anything to do with reality, so why waste your life complaining about them? Burton actually uses the fact that obsessive types rave against him on this blog as an example of how “Influence C” makes ex-students crazy. His current followers look in here and see feverish people expressing all their pent up anger and say to themselves “AAH HAA! Rampant negative emotions. I knew it.”

One of things that ex-members of the Fellowship have in common is the desire to experience reality directly outside the confusion of their own mental and emotional static interference. The approach and experience of consciousness seems like a very relevant subject since that mutual interest is how we all got into this mess in the first place.

227. Old Fish in the Sea - September 6, 2008

DC-209 :”Good judgment can prevent someone from giving up their will to a charlatan.”

This is a mighty statement and one worth long consideration. You have drilled to the core.

Please take a moment to consider what you really know about Robert. Forget what you have heard others say. Let go of any preconceived impressions. Start over. Try not to project on him, what you want him to be – what you imagine him to be – what you are lacking in yourself.

Try to be free from the influences of those that worship him. Just look at him as he is. Look at what he does. Look at his judgement. How he behaves, what he does with FOF resources, what he does with his time, what he does with your payments, how he encourages you to go further, how he encourages you to develop. Who he keeps around him and why. How he behaves when he is not “on show”. Remember the 6 poops and the license plates. Observe how he responds to questioning.

If he gives you a chance, ask him, as a man number 7, how he sees ‘something’ differently from the rest of us. Choose a ‘something’ that is “in the moment”, a something that is in front of you. Evaluate not only his answer but his physical response to being asked. Look to see if he shows fear. See if his answer is sincere or pretentious. Acknowledge to yourself that this is a fair question. You are literally giving your life and your will to him. You have a right to ask and to hear. Certainly he will understand your sincerity and desparation. Take a chance. I did and I left.

Your time is passing. Consider what Elena said about developing your own will. Perhaps it is time to take a stab at that. Act as though you must find out whether he is a charlatan or a teacher. Time is passing. Before long you will have given up all your possibilities. Time is passing. My only major regret for myself is that too much time passed.

And if you find that despite your best efforts, he has walled himself against being evaluated by you, ask yourself what that means. It is not you! Forget the stock answers about his incredibile sensitivity and the need to protect his energy. Does that sound right? Evaluate for yourself. Would not this question be what any real teacher would want to be asked? Would not a real teacher want you to be able to verify him – what he is and what he is not. A real teacher wants you to know the truth. A Charlatan is one that trys to fool you.

Are you willing to take a chance – if not why not? Is the truth that frightening?

Was it my bad judgement to decide to NOT give my will to Robert based on what I saw? In the end we have only our own meager judgement to trust.

One final thought – A non-student once said that he was amazed at the lack of curiousity in students – “the most uncurious bunch he had ever met”. I was one of those “uncurious beings” most of the time. Most of us were.

228. Rear View Mirror - September 6, 2008

RC wrote: “The approach and experience of consciousness seems like a very relevant subject since that mutual interest is how we all got into this mess in the first place.”

Absolutely agree.

229. Another Name - September 6, 2008

Thanks Ames for the letters….it is so recognizable…so pianful and yet…we continue and try to have fun and enjoy our lives with a deep pain we carry around. the pain that made me more compassionate and humble.

Thanks for the blog and all of you.

For people who knew _dw-rd L-hm-n, he is very sick, and is on hospice.

230. Vena - September 6, 2008

Old Fish in the Sea,
Thank you for the beautiful post. I hope it will be read by many current members.

231. a former student - September 6, 2008

IN response to a question on cataloging the FOF distortions of 4th way ideas I started this discussion on the “Greater Fellowship” “The FOF distortions of the 4th way”. Hopefully some may be encouraged to review their own contributions to the blog or those of others and add them to this discussion.

232. Daily Cardiac - September 6, 2008

WhaleRider – 205:

I said in 198 – He (Robert) doesn’t arrange my friction.

You said in response – “Did you think your friction would end if you stop making mandatory ‘donations’ to the FOF? I got news for you! Life is change and change is friction.”

You also said – “Do you honestly think for one second that the three forces of nature exist only for members of the FOF.”

I also said in 198 – Robert doesn’t arrange my moments of transformation.

You replied – “Have you not attained enough wisdom through your sufferings yet to continue the process of transformation by yourself, for yourself?”

These answers illustrate how easy it is to give what I call a “Babel” response, which is an answer that has nothing to do with the words one is responding to.

Words are already a very poor medium of communication, why make it worse by not taking someone’s words at face value but use them as a springboard to launch into one’s own unrelated musing. This is not particular to you; everyone, me included, does it to some degree.

In fairness to you, I said – “If it’s Robert’s school it can’t be a School.” to which you replied – “How True.”

233. whalerider - September 6, 2008

In the beginning of my experience in the FOF, the test and measure of my level of “consciousness and being” was about learning and practicing what ‘not’ to do, i.e., not saying certain words for the word exercises, not complaining or expressing negative feelings, not gossiping or expressing negative thoughts, and not having pre-marital sex. There was very little talk about the transformation of negative emotions. So ‘will’ was produced if you didn’t do this or that, which depending upon the task, was natrually easier for some than others.

So to me back then, the absence of these manifestations made me feel more awake among my peers, and violating any of these exercises and receiving ‘photographs’ made me feel more ‘asleep’ among my peers and that carried a certain social stigma which I wanted to avoid for I wanted to be accepted as part of the group.

I’ll be honest. In addition, no matter how many long hours I worked, no matter how much fine art I viewed or great food or wine I consumed while practicing self-remembering, no matter how many ‘photographs’ I gave or received, no matter how close I got the the cult leader, there didn’t seem to be any real, tangible internal changes in terms of the ‘evolution’ of my consciousness that I could notice.

I feel about as ‘present’ as I did then, which is about half the time being present to my inner world and the other half of the time being present to my outer world, depending on the activity of my life at any given moment.

During the time I spend being present to my inner world, like in various forms of meditation, I distance my awareness from my outer world (sometimes by just closing my eyes), and in the time I spend being present to my outer world, I enjoy inner peace and a quiet mind, distancing myself from my thoughts. (Speaking for myself, I feel a nice balance of both styles of consciousness is necessary and useful for maintaining my mental clarity and emotional health.)

Then of course, the funny business started with Robert.

It soon became clear to me that my fate rested in my hands. He didn’t seem any more awake than anyone else; he shared no inside information with me to accelerate my development. He just seemed, well, more gay than anyone else I’d ever met, that’s about all. Men kissed each other on the lips in the FOF, and I was told that that is what happens with Europeans, which was different for me not having been exposed to many outwardly gay people in my small home town.

He liked men and he was around a lot of them! And because he was at the top of the food chain, he got to ‘cherry pick’ who would live and/or travel with him. Hell, I’d be giddy most of the time, too, if it where me and I was a self-professed messiah surrounded by a slew of young, adoring, nubile, sex-starved women.

After a while, his ‘positive’ demeanor didn’t make him seem more conscious to me for he was very controlling, too, and his emphasis on ‘being present’ started to seem like a ploy to manipulate his followers not to care about past or future consequences of his behavior. The emphasis seemed to be about what you could ‘get’ in whatever moment for yourself to feed your “work’ ego. If anything, the FOF teaches one to be an opportunist more than anything else.

Robert’s plan for my life was not the life I had in mind for myself and I was forced to take action on my own behalf or let myself be exploited until I was no longer any use to him and discarded. So I took all my marbles and left the game to play on my own turf. The deep pain I felt didn’t surface until many years later.

a former student:
Feel free to cut and paste posts to the GF site, as there are those of us whom are not signed up there.

234. whalerider - September 6, 2008

DC:
You said that Robert doesn’t arrange your friction or your moments of transformation, implying that “c-influence’ does, therefore it is not Robert’s school, it’s ‘c-influences’ school. Is that not correct?

Membership in your group is terminated once you stop making monetary payments, does it not? This implies that you also lose your connection to ‘c-influence’, right?

Do you honestly think (or believe as the case may be) that your friction or the third forces that enable your moments of transformation to occur will end by leaving the group, even if you continue to work on yourself independent of the group’s form and structure?

That is my question for you to ponder, which still sits unaddressed.

You respond to form and not content. Why?

235. nigel harris price - September 6, 2008

226 Reality Check

Question asked of REB: “Will I awaken this lifetime?”
Answer (in teacher notes) “No, dear, you are not crazy enough”

Why do I remember that? Because I was there when I read it….Nigel.

236. nigel harris price - September 6, 2008

224 paulshabram

I, too, am with you, Elena, angel…..Nigel.

237. nigel harris price - September 6, 2008

To all, on this lower/higher issue – did not the Big Y’un say:-

“He who would be the greatest among you, must be your servant”?

…..Nigel.

238. dragon - September 6, 2008

224 paulshabram
236 nigel harris price

I’m from the outer world and found your blog many months ago.
After a long background check I wish you dear Elena luck, joy and I hope you will find the strenght to go on with picketing.

Don’t forget you reached people in Europe with your efforts.

You will help other people to make an informed decision. Everything about your actions we can read in the press via www.

If the FoF likes to appear in the glare of publicity only and ever gentle and with this silky touch, it is helpfull to say and to show your point of view.

There is no need to be “asleep”, take the moment and you are free and billion of people feel with you. LiIfe people are not so different from you (former or present members)
We are all searching for the deeper sense, we wish all to belong to something/someone in a positive and very special way. Many people wish to grow and to develop in a constuctive sense.

But the only way to communicate with each other is the exchange of views with integrity.

I am with you Elena, Nigel, Ames etc.

239. nigel harris price - September 6, 2008

234/235 whalerider

Something I wrote while still in ‘an unquiet mind’…..

A certain interpretive difference
Awaits the twice-born.
Whitman’s heaven and hell
Give way to the first’s glory.

Litter picking/placing and decoding
Delights self and humanity.
From former form absorbed,transposed
And Earth’s imperfection more than satisfies.

Nothing goes away;
Neither poverty, hardship nor necessity.
All hangs ,deliberately placed
By angels beyond the screen.

The sun’s crime overcome,
He returns from sweeping the universe
To its limit in crashing waves,
That tell of the new Eternity.

(nhp) 2002

240. rock that boat - September 6, 2008

Heard this thru the grapevine.

RB has 2 women build large luxurious villas one in Mexico
the other in Egypt. EM from the Ribbons has taken on Egypt, in her name…
MD from Boston is renovating a massive walled villa in Mexico

The properties are in the ladies names
but are funded and owned by RB

He is clearly planning his escape
and retirement

241. nigel harris price - September 6, 2008

239 rock that boat

Don’t worry! Because he has become a ‘public figure’ on the web and as head of a ‘church’, he is both culpable and liable for the ‘wrapping up’ of the FOF. Do you remember those films where the ‘baddy’ is caught and the final showdown ‘acted out’ just in the Nicodemus (sorry, Bible, just had to get that one in)…..Nigel
(And, of course, he can be extradited to appear in court!)

242. nigel harris price - September 6, 2008

240

To continue – don’t settle for an out-of-court settlement. As it states in Shakespeare’s Henry V – “The offer likes him not”…..Nigel.

243. fofblogmoderator - September 6, 2008

238 is newly moderated

244. aline - September 6, 2008

#227 Old Fish in the Sea

Thanks for your post :
to look at Robert without preconceived ideas in mind could be very determinant and interesting.
It means to be alone facing what has to be seen, accepted it and taking decisions regarding to that.

When you said “My only major regret for myself is that too much time passed.”
I must admit that some of my friends have the same point of view about that.
But do you think that you would have lost less time somewhere else and that if you wouldn’t have met the FOF, everything would have been perfect?,
Do you really think that you wouldn’t have been cheated by someone else? On that point of view, I don’t agree. As you say in your post, “I tried to see in myself what was lacking”.
Our story is not written and doesn’t have it’s full meaning until our last breath.
I like to read the biography of people, because you see only the main events which have happened in their life and which also have given meaning to their lives.
Things could always be turned into advantages.
aline

245. lauralupa - September 6, 2008

thank you Ellen for the beautiful sea metaphor, and thank you Ames for posting that letter.

I am feeling very vulnerable today, and reading the blog brought me to tears. So many conflicting emotions, feeling the depth of our collective suffering, frustration and darkness, together with our indomitable longing for truth, beauty, integrity…
I am overwhelmed.

Yet, I can’t help but try to launch one more bridge across our solitudes, a fragile arch where hopefully the drops in my eyes can for a moment reflect the sunlight and turn into a rainbow, and touch your sufferig, and touch your beauty, and tell you one more time how much you all mean to me.

May we all find the strenght to overcome these haunting shadows, to heal our deepest wounds, to grow into a renewed sense of our dignity, of compassion towards all living beings, and of gratitude towards this precious human life.

It may be time for me to let go of this mirrored hall, this temporary nest, and take these broken wings and learn to fly.
Love and light to all

Laura

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hVx_kVtFI9E

246. nigel harris price - September 6, 2008

Just thinking – those women funding REB’s ‘escape-mansions’ are probably being fed the biggest ‘prestige-sandwiches’ in the FOF.

Nigel.

247. Rear View Mirror - September 6, 2008

We Want the Same

Life. Full of mysteries.
Death. No telling,
And no knowing.
Also mysterious.

How I arrived here.
And where I came from
No telling. No knowing.
How You arrived here.
Also no telling. And no knowing.

Where we came from,
And what’s next;
The same questions.

We seek light from within ourselves.
We seek light from each other.
We try to remain open
For help and guidance
Along the way.

All of life — maybe a school.
Maybe not.
We, all of us, just students.
Or maybe not.

Sometimes knowing that,
And sometimes not.
Sometimes abandoning all
In fear.

But if a school,
And if we are students,
There is still the question,
Where is it taking us?

We walk together learning
Just small bits and pieces
Of that answer,
And finding more mysteries.

In our better moments
Realizing we’re in it together.

248. nigel harris price - September 6, 2008

This poem was published in Lyra, when I was an FOF member:-

CALIFORNIA
(Views through Old World Eyes)

I.

A Western state bathed in sweat of new conquest,
Allowing possession, or the suggestion of possessing, to charm a man.
Fences, stretched wires and steel posts,
Like strained banners for the cause of ownership,
Divide gold-drab plains and hills, vast and at ease;
Little lies or stands as unforced growth.
(Remember those Britannic fields that offered up their mossed wood fences,
Outlines pleasing to the fields themselves?)

II

Gaze and admire the metal mantisses,
Some astride long valley rows,
Staring at crops they helped to swell.
Some – white-worded, green and grey-legged-
Span the snakes of asphalt.
Others stretch way across bays and rivers
Inviting and disgorging mobile box-ants.

Here, pale green expanse and chrome;
There, sharp static, sun-crazed steel blue;
Four-wheeled easiness drifting, coughing, throttling by.

Occasional relentless hog-dragons,
Bound steel, up-front power,
Eighteen demoniac black- and silver-centred disks, flying.
Yet still prevailing, the decoration stuns.
Dabs of bright orange define the riveted slabs of the body.

They all roll on
To the city of Promise-to-Go.

III.

But the man who was never promised anything,
Who only loved the dust and miles to ride alone,
Casts over the land a saddened, resolute gaze,
From eyes set hard on squint-thrust cheeks
(“Hard to understand a man like that”, they say.)
Four hooves shuffle in the dust;
(Settlers wonder why he’s leaving newly gained tranquility)
He jerks the mount’s muzzle,
Draws the bit tight in the reins;
A swing of horse flank, leather and steel
And many think he’s heading out
From warmth and hospitality;
He knows he’s really heading in, and why.

IV.

And heading in, still stung by images of you,
I wonder at your being on the other side
Of raising sons, of earth’s demand so soon;
And now with time ahead to cheat this scheme of dust,
Your life and love return to adolescent guile.
Your sinews lock your soul in muscularity,
And Love’s a dull, unscintillating thing
With no ideal request.

I know I will return through Sierra’s granite gates
And in different seasons touching rocks,
Run my thumb, pluck off a tuft of spongy green;
Or leaning back on a barky plane tree,
Try to be God way up to the topmost branch;
But not this time to seek that curious eye-flash
That asks to be asked, game-like, by you.

V.

Embers of experience turn to ashen retrospect;
No epic love, landscape or scene as great as moments won by me;
I offer misting, disappearing breaths
And only have the air to touch me back.

(nhp 1985)

249. Richard M. - September 6, 2008

232. Daily Cardiac

It is apparent that any discussion with Daily Cardiac on the blog these days is equivalent to playing chess with a computer, or interacting with Girard. In essence, we are dealing with a mental robot using basic word logic, slightly below the level of persuasion exhibited by an average member of the high school debate team. He shows no apparent connection to a conscience or any type of “non-formatory thinking”. It is truly a dead-end road and waste of time, much like the “system” dictated to followers by Robert Burton.

My advise is to forget about DC and the FOF entirely. They are basically harmless to anyone but themselves. As DC has stated, any member has the option to leave at any time. Here he is correct. I strongly suggest to any members slightly considering this to leave as soon as you physically can. Time truly does heal all wounds.

I am personally more threatened by the possibility of John McCain being elected president of the USA. The entire world should be frightened by this prospect. Burton is fairly easy to purge from one’s life, but these Republican madmen (and madwomen) will affect everyone’s lives with their economic Shock therapy war plans if given power.

On more Burton tale before I go, relating to US presidential politics. On election night of 1976, I was in Washington D.C. with Bobby B. He was very interested in the election results and stayed up late to hear the outcome. When it was announced that Carter had won, Burton become somewhat depressed. HE WANTED GERALD FORD TO BE PRESIDENT. I think that he also admired the ultimate liar, Richard Nixon (based on sympathetic comments he made to me about Nixon’s resignation speech).
Maybe the lower cannot see the higher, but an honest person can see the liar.

Peace to all.

250. elena - September 6, 2008

Thanks Dragon and Paul, Nigel and Whalerider and all for your posts. Laura, we’re just in an interval and we’ll pass through it like so many other times in a better level. A hug to you. We can’t live without your music so when you feel better, please stop by and give us a little more of it! The more time people spend together the more they get to know each other and the better they communicate. The morphing of the blog is such a healthy thing!

Dragon, we are all life people and like you say, we are all searching and finding. The way I feel it now is as if before joining the Fellowship, we were still children no matter how old we were and after leaving it, we are adults: Like Adam and Eve after leaving the Garden of Paradise having met evil. You’re no longer naked or a child after you meet with evil and something in me wishes I had never grown up and was still just another wonderfully innocent living being, a child, but as Aline says, it is not like we cannot transform this into our advantage, “everyone’s” advantage. Maybe this is the price of “growing up”. Sharing and communicating with integrity has in itself a healing power, an invisible force that allows each one of us to know that no matter how far apart we happen to be, there are some great principles worth living by. The more they are practiced, no matter where, the stronger and happier they’ll make us all.

It is also good to know that we’ve reached people like you, who had the good luck to never be in the Fellowship and still share the understandings we gained from our luck. That alone makes it worth the price. To know that some of us paid for many to realize that our well being is in our hands and only in our hands and if we want anything to change, we must change it our selves where ever we happen to be.

All is well with its intricate difficulties. Have a lot of fun with the little efforts of every day life. The Sun is Out and In!

251. Old Fish in the Sea - September 6, 2008

aline 244:
“But do you think that you would have lost less time somewhere else and that if you wouldn’t have met the FOF, everything would have been perfect?,”

Thank you for that question. It brings perspective.

Our Fellowship experience provided many unusual opportunities and I am glad for those. I think we could all write an interesting autobiography.

Would I have had a better life? I truly cannot answer that. I apprecaite that I learned a new way of thinking and describing human psychology, that I developed my own relationship to presence and impressions and that I generally felt loved within the FOF. We each have our own experience and memories of how it was. There were many nice days and moments, and a few wonderful adventures. I would not trade my brother’s life (a non-student) for mine.

Perhaps staying so long and then leaving was the quickest way to develop some psychological independence. Had leaving been easier I would not have had the opportunity to see both how hard and easy it is to break from a comfortable and habitual situation, an authority figure that claims to know better, a dream of a better life and a new civilization, and the confining attitudes of my friends. The difficulty of breaking away was largely in my mind, but there were significant mental barriers. Being free enough from the attitudes of my peers to develop my own conscience is a large task and I still am working on that.

Would I (we) have developed faster outside? Who can possibly say? I would appreciate other points of view on this. I did gain something but 31 years (essentially my whole adult life) is a long time and a large payment.

Is it appropriate to blame myself or have regrets for taking so long to leave? I think I certainly was part of the problem – but not the whole problem.

Oddly when I joined, a somewhat wise friend told me that the 4th way was valuable but that it was hard to leave a group when it was time. How right he was. I was struck by what he said but thought it did not apply to a “real school”.

Do I have regrets? Not really. I guess it is a non-issue. I get to build on what I have now and to your point- it could be alot worse.

At the same time, to buffer the emotion of regret is what allows us to continue to put up with a situation that is not right. It also allows us to make the same mistakes over and over. We became very good at pushing those “waring emotions” into the background. Regret is no less legitimate than the positive feelings we have about those good times together over a glass of wine. It is a perception.

There is still time and the long brown path is out there leading wherever we choose, but my retirement fund is miniscule.

I am glad I left – finally.

252. dragon - September 6, 2008

ISIS IS

the woman, who takes the mansion Kom Ombo in Egypt.

Mister Sobek is the personal fitness trainer for R.E.B.

The training unit starts in the early morning and Mister Sobek says: “Dear R.E.B., we try hard here in Kom Ombo to shelter the earth’s atmosphere. This is the reason, why we do waterskiing without using any fuel.”

“Oh, nice idea,” is R.E.B.’s reply. “But what will we use to go on?”

Mister Sobek: “We use very effective biological generators, look down there in the water!”

R.E.B seems very strained: “Dear Mister Sobek, what do you mean?, I am looking around and around, but I can see only these gigantic crocodiles!”

“You landed a whammy,” Mister Sobek giggles, “Go ahead, Dear, we call this special waterskiing “Croco Crystallization”.

“Oh,” R.E.B. means,”but Isis is waiting for me, it wants a cup of coffee.”

“Don’t worry about it,” Mister Sobek says:”If you finish your training unit without “Croco Crystallization”, you will have the opportunity to take breakfast with Isis and then you will make your flight to Mexico.”

R.E.B.: “Mexico?”

Mister Sobek:”Mexico, there will be a very special training unit, it is called “Living Heart Crystallisazion”, I assume, there will be first some jogging to the top of a pyramid….

R.E.B.: “And the 44 will be there to accomodate me……………

Mister Sobek: “Indeed, 44 crocodiles, 44 angels, 44 whatever you imagine, because you are the higher being, Oh, look over there comes Isis to accompany us…………………….

Sorry, for some black humour, I was in the mood for a
mental garbage collection.

253. dragon - September 6, 2008

250 elena

thank you very much for your warmhearted reply.

You did not reach only me but also other people.

When we were young and “paradiselike”, – children on their way….
we had maybe as a shelter “the inner voice”, but we had also the impetus to research, to fathom out the borders……….But if there is the possibility to get information and to share experience……..the possibility to read about, to find out, to be enabled to see a very tiny warning signal…………

I had a very special encounter with a member and bookmarks in some places. (My deep esteem and sympathy will always be with this member)

I did research and research and yes, it makes me sad, that this man could hurt so many valuable beings so bad.

We will see again here, greetings from Europe, deepest night here…….. I am very tired now…

254. Reality Check - September 7, 2008

249. Richard M. – September 6, 2008

I am personally more threatened by the possibility of John McCain being elected president of the USA. The entire world should be frightened by this prospect. Burton is fairly easy to purge from one’s life, but these Republican madmen (and madwomen) will affect everyone’s lives with their economic Shock therapy war plans if given power.

***

See, this is what Hillary tried to explain to the super-delegates; that despite his superficial popularity Barack Obama probably could not win a general election simply due to the obvious fact that he is not qualified having only spent two years in the senate, most of which is taken up with campaigning. Then once he snubbed Hillary for vice president in favor of someone entirely counter to the message of perpetual “change,” a 37 year member of the senate (Joe Biden), now busy masquerading in the stereotyped appearance of an undertaker on Botox, John McCain, whose speech delivery qualities could not convince a crowd of nudists to come into the shade during a nuclear attack, and is the oldest candidate in history to head a party that is notorious for fielding aging crackpot conservatives that reduce the economy and the country to chaos (Hoover, Nixon, Reagan and Cheney) is actually running in the polls nearly even with Obama.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/110047/Gallup-Daily-Obamas-Lead-Shrinks-Points.aspx

Barack is arrogant and it shows. It’s not an appealing character trait. Hillary beat the guy in 21 debates and won every major “national campaign” state, now let the Democrats suffer their due defeat.

Politics is like sports to me (I’m not a fan of athletic sports). Every presidential candidate I’ve voted for so far (going back to Gore) has lost (though Gore actually won). I will probably vote for Obama and I hope he loses just to prove Hillary right and give her another shot in 2012 (reportedly the end of the world, see Incas, Burton, etc).

Sorry for the jack of hearts quality of this post.

255. Daily Cardiac - September 7, 2008

Richard M.- 249:

To answer your question; no, I don’t bleed Carolina blue.

256. Old Fish in the Sea - September 7, 2008

What does it mean to bleed Carolina blue?

257. nigel harris price - September 7, 2008

Probably good to remember that we are looking towards the future – generations to come…..Nigel.

258. Richard M. - September 7, 2008

Sailing to Byzantium

That is no country for old men.
The young in one another’s arms, birds in the trees,
—Those dying generations—at their song,
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas,
Fish, flesh, or fowl, commend all summer long
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.
Caught in that sensual music all neglect
Monuments of unageing intellect.

An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,
Nor is there singing school but studying
Monuments of its magnificence;
And therefore I have sailed the sea and come
To the holy city of Byzantium.

O sages standing in God’s holy fire
As in the gold mosaic of a wall
Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre,
And be the singing-masters of my soul.
Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity.

Once out of nature I shall never take
my bodily form from any natural thing,
But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make
Of hammered gold and gold enamelling
To keep a drowsy Emperor awake;
Or set upon a golden bough to sing
To lords and ladies of Byzantium
Of what is past, or passing, or to come.

—William Butler Yeats

259. nigel harris price - September 7, 2008

258 Richard M

Many thanks, Richard. It reminds me to buy another copy of Yeats’ poems…..the last copy was given to someone I thought would like it to recover in the ‘asylum’…..Nigel.

260. Vinnie the Fish - September 7, 2008

“251. Old Fish in the Sea – September 6, 2008
There is still time and the long brown path is out there leading wherever we choose, but my retirement fund is miniscule.”

This is an unfortunate aspect of many members, who ignore/d their financial future, paying vast mortgage-size amounts into the FOF with some sort of blind faith that their future will be taken care of by C influence.

261. spoonful - September 7, 2008

Ames 214

That letter struck a chord! Thanks for posting it, Ames. And my respects to the author – written with inspiration. It’s just a shame the subject is so depressing!

Yes… BE CAREFUL OF ROBERT BURTON. He’s clever, he’s an actor, he knows what he wants from you. Ignorance is no excuse these days. There is enough information out there to get informed about this man and his methods.

The only thing that prevents us is: not wishing to hear (the truth).

Good luck!

262. dragon - September 7, 2008

254. Reality Check – September 7, 2008
249. Richard M. – September 6, 2008

“John McCain, elected president of the US”

It gives my friends and me a little foretaste of the apocalypse (great word).

But unfortunately, Obama created his own Achilles heel by snubbing Hillary for vice president.

Hillary has yet converted this “defeat” and supports Obama.

She shows a very matured character.

It’s really a pity for us all: No team Obama/Hillary.

And the result: Maybe more conflicts, more soldiers (of all nations) killed in action etc.

The more US loses energy by his attempt to be a firefighter, the more China, Russia and others will take advantage of this loss.

It is time to find intelligent solutions for conflicts/energy shortage……..

263. arthur - September 7, 2008

Two quotes from Einstein:

“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it”.

And, since I am a “jack of clubs”,

“I dont know
“I dont care
and it doesnt make any difference”.

264. whalerider - September 7, 2008

Nigel:
Thanks for the poem. That was kind of you. The muse seems to mess up the lives in those whom have the talent to transform it into art. My experience is that if you do not give into the muse, it checks out for longer periods.

Reality Check:
It saddens me that after all the other stuff you posted you would feel the need to apologize for your own jack of hearts in a post that is just about your own feelings and thoughts about politics. Does that seem “normal” to you?

Personally, I share with you the same underlying feelings of disempowerment regarding politics, especially after the last two fraudulent elections. Obama has capitalized on the last shred of positive emotion I have regarding the future…Hope. At the same time, we must remember that the business of America is business, and that 2/3 of the American economy is run on consumerism. It would serve the interests of the powers that elections create as many disappointed and frustrated consumers (regardless of their political affiliations and especially women) because guess what consumers do to compensate for these feelings…? Ka-ching!

lauralupa:
I have said it before to others. You are at the point where the blog needs you more than you need the blog and that is a good place to be in. It’s good to take a break too; when you return you bring fresh energy that nourishes us all. I have enjoyed the “reality sandwich” links. I also have appreciated how you have maintained a fairly detached yet positive voice here without engaging in the conflicts between us. Your posts reflect stability. Thanks for being here.

265. Ellen - September 7, 2008

Daily Cardiac, 209, thanks for your response.

Hold on though, I think you want to put me into a “negative former student” pigeon hole. I protest. There is a great difference between negative perceptions and negative emotions. I’m just trying to apply my intelligence, experience and understanding to the questions at hand because they deeply interest me and many other posters here.

Additionally, my attitude towards Robert has nothing to do with the questions I posed to you. I’m really and truly curious to understand who you think is in control of the Fellowship of Friends. You had said “If it’s Robert’s school it can’t be a school. An esoteric school can’t be controlled by a mortal; that’s exactly what’s impossible.” So, if I follow your response, then there is a difference of scale between the power or control of a teacher and a principal (or board of directors). Right? And in this instance you would say that Robert has control of his classroom, which as a teacher he should have, but not the School, right? So then, the principal who is in “control” of the Fellowship would be Influence C? Is this what you meant? If so, I can understand the concept, though it does leave space for a lot of conceptual and practical ambiguity, particularly in relation to accountability.

As I am sure you can appreaciate, perception, verification and understanding of Influence C is a very subjective thing. If you are referring to the clear experience of the third or fourth state of consciousness-awareness, that is one thing. However, if instead you are speaking about synchronicity and the application of the concept of 44+ angels directing people and things from an invisible world, then it is something else. In the first instance, relative to states of consciousness, this is something that an individual can attempt to verify for themselves with some degree of personal integrity and empowerment. In the second instance, any individual’s “verification” is dependent upon their cohesion with Robert’s interpretation of Influence C, so in effect, he is in “control” of the Fellowship, because he determines who Influence C is and how to understand their actions here. Right?

And again, if we continue the school analogy thingy that you suggested, and assume that Influence C is in control of the Fellowship, then wouldn’t it also be their role to be responsible for the integrity of a teacher by acting as a mediator for the students when the teacher abuses the trust his role engenders? Because if the teacher has the right to kick unruly students out of his classroom, then also the principal must be able to reprimand the teacher when he misbehaves or abuses his role of trust. Right?

So, how does Influence C communicate with Robert when they need to say something that he does’t want to hear? Unexpectedly or spontaneously, in the moment? (And then how does he respond?) Or though open, sincere, two way communication with his loving students? (And then how does he respond?) Or through shocks? Which he then interprets according to his theoretically objective understanding? To my perception and experience Robert is not listening, and does not want to hear from Influence C when it comes down to his personal weaknesses, passions and fears. Does he read this blog? Is he open to listening to the expressions and understandings of currently living realized masters?

You say: “In an esoteric school the principal, board, funding agent, etc. are all invisible, unheard, unknown but to a few, so trust in the teacher is paramount. Giving up one’s will is a bitter pill to all, some more than others, but in this business there is no way around it. Good judgment can prevent someone from giving up their will to a charlatan. Bad judgment might lead to someone not giving up their will to a real teacher. But the issue of “control” cannot be avoided.”

Agreed. Really, I do. Surrender of the ego is what this is all about. A student can hope to surrender his ego into the guidance of a real teacher who has also already surrendered his own, and both meet, like two arrows meeting in mid air, in Influence C. Our only disagreement is that you percieve Influence C to be something external to yourself while I do not. Though I hesitate to use a quotation from someone else in this personal exchange context, I read this passage recently from Ramana Maharshi – probably the most influential Indian master of the 20th century – and found his words surpass anything I might be able to muster on the subject:

“Offer yourself up unconditionally to the power that is your own source. It is enough that one surrenders oneself. Surrender is to give oneself up to the original cause of one’s being. Do not delude yourself by imagining such a source to be some God outside you. Your source is within yourself. Give yourself up to it. That means that you earnestly seek the source [within] and merge in it.”

Well, DC, as ever, good luck to you.
Love,
Ellen

266. veramente - September 7, 2008

254 RC
“Barack is arrogant and it shows.”
———–
unlike the writer who is egoless…

267. Ellen - September 7, 2008

Ames, 214
Thanks for posting that letter.

Richard M., 258
Nigel, 213

Nice poems. Byzantium, I had forgotten.
Thich Nhat Hanh, a new acquaintance.
Thanks, both.

268. veramente - September 7, 2008

245 Laura
…”Yet, I can’t help but try to launch one more bridge across our solitudes, a fragile arch where hopefully the drops in my eyes can for a moment reflect the sunlight and turn into a rainbow, and touch your sufferig, and touch your beauty, and tell you one more time how much you all mean to me.”…
————-
Laura, we are all in the same boat are we? traveling perhaps from an endless past to an andless future.
I am so glad to know you.

269. veramente - September 7, 2008

Hello Sheik/Pavel, I have been missing you!

270. dragon - September 7, 2008

261. spoonful – September 7, 2008
Ames 214

That letter struck a chord! Thanks for posting it, Ames

–>Yes, that letter is another important source!

BE CAREFUL OF ROBERT BURTON..

–>Not too careful, please!

217. whalerider

Bravo! Doesn’t the FOF dogma make you feel sick to your stomach, like throwing up?

–>Yes, this is the way towards healing! To trust again in your own body, to perceive his signals.

If the spiritual output of the Dearest evokes some kind of uncomfortable perception of your/my body, it is worth to think it over.

Here on earth, most of us have a body, we also have a mind and Christians or others think, they have a soul. 4th Way People think, they have to “work” to gain a soul….

To make efforts (Christians,……), it seems a logical conclusion, to trust in the signals of our bodies.

We should never supress a yawn and we should never hold back criticism.

Gossip? Idle gossip? This is another generic term to gag people’s minds. And the more I/a person wish/wishes to advance my/his development, the more I/it am/is vulnerable.

This is one weapon of the Dearest. Another weapon is fear.

This organisation is based on various relationships of dependence, emotional, financial, sexual… This is the glue for the Dearest and it has a strong quality.

But remember: We have all to bow to the will of time……..

Our bodies will deteriorate, it is our fate here on earth…..

“Carpe diem”, we learnt in school……

Once upon a time the Dearest was charismatic, attractive young man. Took he advantage of his gifts?

Everybody will judge in another way or in no way…

But everybody has also the gift to leave his circle…..

Your Presidents in the US aren’t they called sometime “lame duck” ?

271. elena - September 7, 2008

It’s five in the morning and I’ve been pondering on a serious dilemma for a few hours and am hoping some of you might be able to help me.
I have acquired the right to become an American Citizen and am wondering what it is to be an American to see if I can sincerely apply.

The question is whether it is worth to live in a country where people are not willing to even picket against a Cult that they know abuses other people economically and sexually, emotionally and intellectually or in a country in which even the presidential candidate can get kidnapped and stay kidnapped for over five years without anyone doing anything about it and at the same time, twenty six men from different regions in the country are willing to stand up for what they believe and all get shot in the same election. Don’t situations like these ones allow one to understand why Socrates or Jesus would rather drink the cicuta or get crucified than live? Can life really be called such in any one of these places? Is it really worth living to support any of these status quos? That is, to live and work and let it be without even questioning it because one has lost the dimension of humanity that can take such things into account?

Should I apply for an American Passport so that I can get visas to countries that would other wise deny me because I am a Colombian Citizen? So that I can perhaps get a job and not starve in the future when the rest of the people in my country cannot avoid it because they’ve already been crucified by a world and national economy and politics that didn’t give them a chance? Should I become an American Citizen because being human is not a nationality and I can be as American as Colombian and still remain human? Can I really? Or because one can equally die an American or a Colombian if one is human enough?

272. arthur - September 7, 2008

The other day I was reading Elena and pick up a “hint” that her dawn had arrived it was going to be “adios” to the blog.

Then I read Lauralupa and picked up the same “sense”.

The thought came to me that the blog would be different without Elena and Lauralupa.

Robert Earl Burton who I now suspect reads the blog might be happy and gay about “thorns” leaving his side and hands. The second Christ such as he is.

273. arthur - September 7, 2008

Elena,

The Ideal America (s) does exist. It can be found in the early writings of the Founders. Especially those connected to the Masonic or Rosicrucian orders of their day.

Unfortunately, in politics, the “lower cannot see the higher”.

As said by Shakespeare: “But man, proud man; drest in a little authority; most ignorant of what he’s most assured; his glassy essence, like an angry ape; plays such fanatastic tricks before high heaven; as makes angels weep”.

“The ills of the human race will never disappear until by God’s gift those who are sincere and true lovers of wisdom attain political power, or the rulers of our cities learn true philosophy”. PLATO

“I am a Citizen, not of Athens or Greece, but of the world”. SOCRATES

“My country is the world–my countrymen are all mankind”. WILLIAM LLOYD GARRISON

“God grant that not only the Love of Liberty but a through knowledge of the rights of man may pervade all the nations of the earth, so that a philosopher may set his feet anywhere on its surface and say, “this is my country”. BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

“The most crying need in the humbler ranks of life is that they should be allowed some part in the direction of public affairs. That is what will develop their faculties and intelligence and self-respect”. HENRIK IBSEN

“I represent a party which does not yet exist: the party of revolution, civilization. The party will make the twentieth century. There will issue from it first the United States of Europe, then the United States of the World”. VICTOR HUGO

The Eagle and Condor united in flight.

274. Old Fish in the Sea - September 7, 2008

Elena,

There will always be selfishness, greed, agression, naivete, laziness, bullying, fear, blind acceptance, addiction, suffering and other examples of imperfection and I would guess that no country has a monopoly on these. There will also be, I hope, warm people, beautiful beaches, rivers, forests, families and mountains and the opportunity to be creative. I admire your courage and ability to stand up for the weak and your relentless efforts to expose the Fellowship so that those that want to be free, have the opportunity to see other points of view.

Fortunately we have the freedom to spend our time as we wish.

Many of us are becoming older and few of us have put away ample funds for retirement. I am not suggesting that we forget the evil that exists but I would like to play with the possibility of using our ample energies to also consider how can we support a graceful, fullfillling and enjoyable movement towards old age and death – essentially work with what we have now? Are their ways that we can build upon the bonds, psychological thinking, common language and hardships that we have experienced together to make our lives deeper, more emotional and more productive.

I guess that we could assume that we don’t have the being required, that we were too damaged by it all, but I think many are making little efforts on a daily basis and I personally have benefitted from some of those efforts. Last week’s concert was a nice example.

I don’t think many of us want to recreate what we have left. But for me it is more exciting to contemplate how we might be creative, at least in the realm of what we can do, than how we might be destructive – even if what we wish to destroy carries elements of deception, greed and hurt.

I recognize the need for destruction, and I have never been very good at it, but there are other options.

Is it possible to make something positive out of our lives, despite the dark elements? In the past, those that left were largely on their own. At least now we know how to reach each other and we are all a little wiser, more humble, less judgmental, and less naive than we were years ago. Their are almost 800 people on the Greater Fellowship and it grows every week. Some of us are healing, some of us are looking for new ways to connect with higher states, some are still pursuing the 4th way. Some of us are reaching out to others and arranging events, some of us are trying to get our lives in order after years of neglecting our own needs and some of us are just enjoying our new found freedom and the absence of dogma and some of us are not very healthy.

There are many ways to spend our energy. I like the river, the mountains, the sea, family, making a living and sharing with my friends.

I appreciate your efforts Elena. There are many ways to be. I think it would be nice to welcome you as an American.

275. nigel harris price - September 7, 2008

265 Ellen

Watch out for a C-influence ‘expose the Anti-Christ’ set-up, when we go to court!…..Nigel.

276. nigel harris price - September 7, 2008

271 Elena

‘When in Rome’…..sue Burton in court,
then make your decision…..Nigel.

277. nigel harris price - September 7, 2008

“Once in every life, there comes a time,
We walk out all alone, and into the night.
The feeling won’t last, but then
We remember it again, when we close our eyes.
Like stars across the sky, we were born to shine,
All of us here, because we believe”

(‘Because We Believe’, sung by Andrea Bocelli,
on the ‘Amore’ album)

278. nigel harris price - September 7, 2008

P.S. 271 Elena

Remember, I told you in my little history, that I was made an ‘illegal immigrant’ by useless lawyers and unscrupulous employers in the U.S.? One thing, though, in my favour was that I made the Holy Hardware for the Papal Visit to San Francisco in 1987. Log it!…Nigel.

279. James Mclemore - September 7, 2008

Elena
“wondering what it is to be an American”

Great posts by both Arthur and Old Fish –

Wish to say first that I have tremendous admiration for your courage of putting ‘your ass on the line’, and I know I am not telling you anything that you do not already know, but……….
Nationalism is right up there with religion in its divisiveness and cause of separateness in the world. As far as I can tell we did not choose where we would be born. Warmongers, religious fanatics, and power possesors drew all these squiggily lines all over the planet long before we got here.
If we are getting our sense of identity from being the member of a particular country, religion, polictical party, or from following any ‘system’ of ideas, I suspect we are adding more layers to something that never had any real substance to begin with.

I certainly feel fortunate for having been born here in the US, since until 9/11 nobody was shooting at us or dropping bombs on us, and there were opportunties for pursuing all sorts of things that for the inhabitants of some countries did not exist. I feel fortunate that I was born into a middle class family instead of one that was immersed in poverty, although like Old Fish, I find myself closer to the end of my life than the beginning, and with very little funds.

It does sound as if it might be practical to have an American passport if it keeps one and their loved ones from starving.

There is the possibility that Robert Burton may escape to Mexico and live in luxury for the rest of his days in a walled villa. The political power possessors in this country and in Columbia may continue to live in luxury, create wars, commit attrocities, and keep the mass of the populace right where they are. Unless there is something very large on the horizon that changes everything, the external world may continue being very similar to what it has evidently been for quite some time. Seems like all we can do is to keep investigating the possibilities of our own internal freedom (which may be the only freedom that there is), pursue the friendships and feelings of love that we find along the way, try to create something new, and try to be of service to others when the opportunities arise.

The best to you.

280. spoonful - September 7, 2008

Since we’ve touched on the subject of politics – what is it with you Americans always wanting to dominate the world? Listen to your Presidents – current and those running for office and their message hinges around America’s rightful place as world leader / power.

Well, go for it – or in the words of your people proclaiming your future president??? “Drill, baby, drill!”

Being British, what really pisses me off is that we’re tied in to everything you do – or don’t do. We go to war when you do, we retreat when you do. The so called credit crunch came about because of the sub prime market in the US and we caught it as a result. Now they’re telling us the British situation won’t get any better until America picks up. Okay, it’s our fault. Our politicians have a love affair with your lot – eager to jump into bed with Republicans or Democrats, or both at the same time if necessary.

Poodles we Brits are – licking out of America’s hand. But then you are the country which has the best there is to offer, as well as all the crap!

Anyway, just though you guys would appreciate a foreigner’s perspective. Yes, you have every reason to be proud, but a little humility can go a long way. God Bless America!

281. arthur - September 7, 2008

From today’s “Parade” magazine. 10 ways to get rich by Warren Buffett. I like number 10 best.

10. Know what success really means.

“Despite his wealth, Buffett does not measure success by dollars. In 2006, he pledged to give away almost his entire fortune to charities, primarily the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. He’s adament about not funding monuments to himself–no Warren Buffett buildings or halls. “I know people who have a lot of money”, he says, “and they get testimonial dinners and hospital wings named after them. But the truth is that nobody in the world loves them. When you get to my age, you’ll measure your success in life by how many of the people you want to have love you actually do love you. That’s the ultimate test of how you’ve lived your life”.

I guess that goes for all the gurus and politicians?

282. Reality Check - September 7, 2008

280. spoonful – September 7, 2008

“Since we’ve touched on the subject of politics – what is it with you Americans always wanting to dominate the world?”

“Being British,”

***

Up until the Second World War the “Sun never set on the British Empire.” What was with you British back then?

Right now you owe your “liberalism” to the fact that your country was attacked by a fascist dictatorship which fostered in the thousands of returning soldiers a “socialist” backlash against the conservatives that ruled your country until the defeat of Churchill after WWII.

“We go to war when you do…”

World War I and World War II…when you go to war we end up saving your neck. And there was the incident in 1812.

283. American - September 8, 2008

spoonful, you are grossing me out with that name of yours, but you have a great point about we americans. god bless america. don’t bless the rest of you though.

Were it not for several american companies directly or indirectly supporting the nazi war machine… whoops, never mind. opening up a can of worms here.

agree with R.M.s view about McCain. I am much more concerned about him. burton has no power, but what people allow.

284. elena - September 8, 2008

Thank you Arthur, that was very inspiring! And Old Fish, James and Nigel. I guess there’s an opportunity to be human no matter where one is and now that I’m beginning to feel well it is a lot of fun to be here!

I went to the Yuba Park River today and it is an upside down cathedral in water! The huge slates? of rock go one after the other for miles telling the water that it cannot seduce them so it caresses them over and over, molds them into cicrcular soft forms, exposes them out to the Sun and covers them in a cold stream of mountain firmness. The Sun shines beautifully this time of the year as the evening sets in and moves across the trees with joyous brightness.

I asked Mr. Haven today if he had understood anything this year and he told me he’d understood that I had failed to understand the Fellowship. I told him that then nothing had changed and he hang the phone up on me. Some people think the bubble is intact but they now carry little bubbles around themselves and are drowning in them. The problem is that it is no longer my problem!

Arthur, I can’t let go of the blog yet even if I’m sometimes falling out of it. You are here and I enjoy hearing from you as well as a few others that stick around. It helps me balance myself out and money is short for shrinks!

Greg, would you tell me what it is for you? America? I mean really, from your heart, without picking a fight with your next door neighbour? I know hearts are rare but they are “regeneratable!” You’ll probably avoid that question too but I’d be happy if others pick it up. I guess for me what is beautiful about it is the strength of the individuals, their conviction that they are the proudest, prettiest, toughest guys on the planet. Someone had to take us there! For other nations it was their music, their architecture but for Americans it is they themselves who they are proud to show: their great parking lots that have replaced the public squares, the shopping malls, the impeccably shaved highways that make one feel like a queen speeding one’s way to heaven. The pride on those roads and highways is really something beautiful. When we tear them apart after we realize that the atmosphere can no longer take any cars we’ll still remember them with the same pride.

I have met a true American recently who took me to the mountains in search of big foot. He is the loveliest man I’ve yet met. It has given me back trust in humanity! and America!

Got to go!

285. nigel harris price - September 8, 2008

283 elena

I have been raised in England of Welsh and Scottish ancestry and experienced both good and bad sides of American small business. My mum, before she died, said she wanted her father’s book collection to go to me. This is from one of those books:-

Alice Duer Miller ‘The White Cliffs’ XXI

“The English love their country with a love
Steady, and simple, wordless, dignified;
I think it sets their patriotism above
All others. We Americans have pride-
We glory in our country’s short romance.
We boast of it and love it. Frenchmen when
The ultimate menace comes, will die for France
Logically as they have lived. But Englishmen
Will serve day after day, obey the law,
And do dull tasks that keep a nation strong.
Once I remember in London how I saw
Pale shabby people standing in a long
Line in the twilight and the misty rain
To pay their their tax. I then saw England plain.”

286. Ellen - September 8, 2008

Elena,
About America and what it is.
To me it is best represented in current publications and press by people like Garrison Keillor and his prarie home companion radio show or the Sun magazine in print. Get yourself a monthly subscription? You won’t regret it. http://www.thesunmagazine.org/

I see the best of America is about possibilities. So the Fellowship of Freinds, claiming itself to be a church, CAN exist there, and you have the legal right point out its contradictions by picketing it, too. And both are true. And that is America.

287. spoonful - September 8, 2008

282 Reality Check:

Then was then. Now is Now. We are not at war with each other, though some might try to convince us that isn’t the case. We inhabit a completely different world from the fascist dictatorships of the past, yet the US seems to continue to foster empire values, at least to try to win elections. Values inherited from the British very possibly, but still out of joint with these times.

288. Daily Cardiac - September 8, 2008

T Ellen – 265:

“There is a great difference between negative perceptions and negative emotions. I’m just trying to apply my intelligence, experience and understanding to the questions at hand because they deeply interest me and many other posters here.”

You are correct; I don’t see you as someone who resorts to negative emotions excessively. I may have come up against your limits once or twice, but mostly I’ve received reasonable responses for you.

If you remember, I asked you not to take the analogy of the teacher in the classroom too far as it will surely break down, as all analogies would.

In the case of the FoF Robert is teacher sometimes and principal other times. He has the authority to “kick people out of the school” (the FoF has no classrooms in the earthy sense).

He also very definitely answers to a higher power. He is not acting on his own behalf when he makes any decision of importance, especially like asking someone to leave. He also makes mistakes and, when he does, I haven’t ever encountered anyone to undo his own directives more swiftly than he does.

“So, how does Influence C communicate with Robert when they need to say something that he doesn’t want to hear? Unexpectedly or spontaneously, in the moment? (And then how does he respond?) Or though open, sincere, two way communication with his loving students? (And then how does he respond?) Or through shocks? Which he then interprets according to his theoretically objective understanding?”

They (Influence C) communicate with him in ways appropriate to the situation; sometimes “unexpectedly or spontaneously” other times thoughtfully, over time. Sometimes through shocks. Consciousness has the ability to give and receive in “particulars”, and to respond in “particulars”

It is often a teacher’s role to reprimand, or correct a student. After all we are in a school to learn. This might not feel like “love” at the time, but we are fortunate whenever we get such one on one instruction.

“Our only disagreement is that you perceive Influence C to be something external to yourself while I do not.”

We only half disagree, as I see them within and without. We are created in their image. If men were wholly gods, intact, with no godhead outside of us, no creator, the world on earth would reflect that, in no uncertain terms.

But we are also given an adversary, within and without (outwardly the adversary is the world), so that we have a clear choice to follow.

The Indian tradition, which I presume influenced Ramana Maharshi, who you mentioned, is steeped in the belief of a struggle and an adversary. Have you ever read the Ramayana, or the Bhagavad Gita? Religious Fundamentalists usually preach that God and Devil are wholly outside of us. New age religion seems to often preach god is simply within, and eliminates the adversary entirely. The reason for politicking for only an inward godhead is to make way for the belief that no higher power exists, so nothing can overrule any whim we might have.

For those who choose the god within there ensues a struggle; and by this struggle we are made stronger and more capable to serve the godhead without, who are ever calling us home.

For those who choose the adversary within there is no struggle, no movement towards light, and we remain as we are. This is because we begin the spiritual journey with only a small dormant part of us as godhead, but mostly as the adversary.

289. brucelevy - September 8, 2008

T Ellen – 265

Ellen, you are very fortunate. DC not only partially approves of you, but he has direct advice on how you should further proceed. He also can tell you how to apprehend the truth and not be waylaid.

287. Daily Cardiac

You’re a fucking lunatic.

290. brucelevy - September 8, 2008

287. Daily Cardiac

But I “approve” of your verbal diarrhea.

291. Across the River - September 8, 2008

Dear Elena,

I’m happy to hear you have this choice. It’s a good fortune to be an American.

With unique challenges at this time in history your question is an important one, I feel. The dismal leadership over the last several years has broken alot of hearts. The question of conservative and liberal understandings depends in essence on whether one considers the principles in the U.S. Constitution to be literal rules of goverance or subject to interpretation. But the very deep and unfortunate influence of special interests on both sides muddy the issue.

William F. Buckley Jr was a politically conservative scholar (RIP) who said something to the effect that he would rather be governed by the first thousand names in the Boston telephone book than by 10 Harvard scholars 😀

I like the common sense of that idea and the lack of vanity. Elena, I’m glad you’re having fun in America! I wish you the very best.

292. nigel harris price - September 8, 2008

281 arthur

I feel that if I wish to love, and do not DO what I feel is in my heart to DO, then there is no will to my love. And, hence, there is no consciousness nor conscience in me, if that was my aim to achieve…..Nigel.

293. will coyote - September 8, 2008

D.C
When inside me there is God, and outside me there is God is not there is Two God: It is me that is not real and divide one.

294. will coyote - September 8, 2008

The adversary is not the world, but the idea that is my world (identification 4° way, ṭṟṣṇā (sanscrito; cinese: 愛 ài; pali: taṇthā, la brama for Buddha , the spiritual wealth for Gesus).
May be the adversary is the ruler of the world, but the word is innocent, it is needing love, conscious love, but love. I can be confuse about consciousness, but love is more easy to see.
God made me and you for love, by love. If you love the lower self you became God and see it as your son.

295. Ellen - September 8, 2008

will coyote, 292 & 293
Both your posts are so fine, though the English may not be (grammatically) correct, the sentiment and understanding is. Thank you for being here.

Daily Cardiac deeply believes in the existence of the Lower Self and the external mechanical world of life as an adversary which is uninterested and even opposed to remembering itself. He has his own experience and upteen thousand quotations and images from various esoteric traditions to prove it. Who will dissuade him? Not me.

Thus, the unitive realization of enlightenment will continue to elude him for so long as he feels the need to project his conceptual sense of separation upon it. What he doesn’t understand is that it’s his own (spiritual) ego that has become deeply invested in alienating himself from his Lower Self and that of the external world.

It is however the same non-dual understanding that is echoing down through the centuries of mystics: “The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here and you are out there.” Zen master, Yasutani Roshi said.

Borders.
Limits.
Us-Them.
Me-You.
School-Life.
Lower Self-Higher Self.
It’s all relavitely true but it is all so formatory. Everything changes when inclusion and transformation take the place of opposition.

And formatory mind describes the limit of a person’s being until it doesn’t anymore…

296. Rear View Mirror - September 8, 2008
297. elena - September 8, 2008

What a good post Ellen, 294. Thank you for the suggestions too. Across the River, it’s all LIFE, thank God! What the Fellowship corrupted is the understanding that Influence A, B, and C are in an eternal dialogue with each other and that is how history gets written just as our inner connections with them, write our biographies.

A kiss to you Nigel and thanks for the CD, I’m much enjoying it.

298. James Mclemore - September 8, 2008

245. lauralupa

Thank you so much for that piece by Joanna Newsom.
It is one of the most childlike and magical things I have heard in some time.

Something for you in return – just a few lines from a song by Josh Groban called “Let Me Fall” –

“Someone I am is waiting for my courage
The one I want, the one I will become
Will catch me”

299. spoonful - September 8, 2008

Will Coyote – 292 & 293

I didn’t understand a word of any of that! Well, I got most of the syntax, but the semantics went way over my head…

Have you an unfair advantage?

300. Opus 111 - September 8, 2008

Ellen 294

Daily Cardiac deeply believes in the existence of the Lower Self and the external mechanical world of life as an adversary which is uninterested and even opposed to remembering itself.

You are giving too much credit. I find him shifty, intellectually dishonest, master of obfuscation and incapable of sincere self-examination. He is an apologist for Robert Burton and his organization, and that is the true extent of his contribution here. I have no idea about what he believes and at this point, even less interest in learning anything about it.

301. aline - September 8, 2008

“As long as people have unlivable ideals, they are manipulable.”
this is coming from a article that a friend send me today:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/documents/guru-papers/

I think that why the fof is loosing so many students now.
The ideal is no more livable, friends stopped to be manipulated,
the hemorragy is going on.
Good!
Aline

302. Reality Check - September 8, 2008

“Man, in the normal state natural to him, is taken as a duality. He consists entirely of dualities or ‘pairs of opposites.’ All man’s sensations, impressions, feelings, thoughts, are divided into positive and negative, useful and harmful, necessary and unnecessary, good and bad, pleasant and unpleasant. The work of centers proceeds under the sign of this division. Thoughts oppose feelings. Moving impulses oppose instinctive craving for quiet. This is the duality in which proceed all the perceptions, all the reactions, the whole life of man. Any man who observes himself, however little, can see this duality in himself.

“But this duality would seem to alternate; what is victor today is the vanquished tomorrow; what guides us today becomes secondary and subordinate tomorrow. And everything is equally mechanical, equally independent of will, and leads equally to no aim of any kind. The understanding of duality in oneself begins with the realization of mechanicalness and the realization of the difference between what is mechanical and what is conscious. This understanding must be preceded by the destruction of the self-deceit in which a man lives who considers even his most mechanical actions to be volitional and conscious and himself to be single and whole.

“When self-deceit is destroyed and a man begins to see the difference between the mechanical and the conscious in himself, there begins a struggle for the realization of consciousness in life and for the subordination of the mechanical to the conscious. For this purpose a man begins with endeavors to set a definite decision, coming from conscious motives, against mechanical processes proceeding according to the laws of duality. The creation of a permanent third principle is for man the transformation of the duality into the trinity.” –G. I. Gurdjieff

***

We are fortunate to have access to the thoughts of those remarkable champions of consciousnesses, vanquishers of the illusion of opposites, that have succeeded in conquering the inherent nature of duality and finally arrived at the ultimate state of unity, are we not?

“Magnetic centre, for instance, is also in personality, for we are not born with it – it is created in life. It is a group of ‘I’s which can, to a certain small extent, control other groups of ‘I’s. Some of these personalities are all right, but some will always be in your way and have to be controlled or eliminated.” –P. D. Ouspensky

It is interesting to see the thoughts of people that spent decades in a self-proclaimed “conscious teaching” and never actually developed beyond the artificial personality of magnetic center. They live in a world where fantasy displaces the need for even the slightest practical effort. This is yet another indication that none of us ex-FOF people were in an actual school. If we were then there would not be such interest in the delights of B influence, that is, beliefs about ‘consciousness’ that contain no actual practical information. Some of these unfortunates jump out of the fantasy world of the FOF right into the further imagination that they have achieved the advanced perception of inner unification (and thus unification with the world itself) without the necessity of developing permanent self-consciousness first and if they were not “jack-of-hearts solars” (inherently superficial and naïve) then maybe there would be the slightest hope that theirs is not yet another make-believe spiritual enthusiasm.

The feature of false personality known as naiveté never learns from its past mistakes, it never connects with the shock of the real world.

“This understanding must be preceded by the destruction of the self-deceit in which a man lives who considers even his most mechanical actions to be volitional and conscious and himself to be single and whole.” -ISOTM

303. Rear View Mirror - September 8, 2008

Opus 111 (at around 299). Your viewpoint sums it up for me as well.

I think a person can have a clearer understanding of the depth of the problem in the FOF when we recognize what you’re describing. The notion that everyone posting here is sincere and genuine — this is another one of those ideas that left us vulnerable to Burton and the FOF in the first place.

We all remember a time when we believed Burton to be sincere as well.

Some of the same critical thinking that got us out of the fof is handy here on the blog, too. I think we’re all at various stages of recovery from the fof. Some people within the fof are in the process of recovering from it even before leaving. And part of that recovery is recognizing that people don’t always say what they mean, and they don’t always have our best interests in mind.

And again, this doesn’t need to be a bitterly obsessive idea… It’s just good to remember, and helpful to remember as we move on.

304. You-me-us-they - September 8, 2008

Hello Reality Check.
Formal claim for the surrender of rights (or revendication) from the
“inherently superficial and naïve” :

H
a
l
l
e
l
u
j
a
h
Baby!

305. fofblogmoderator - September 8, 2008

283 is newly moderated

306. fofblogmoderator - September 8, 2008

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