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Fellowship Of Friends Discussion, Part 45 August 13, 2008

Posted by fofblogmoderator in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

Excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

Comments

1. fofblogmoderator - August 14, 2008

#270 in the previous discussion (part 44)
is newly moderated.

2. Daily Lobotomy - August 14, 2008

We know that ROBERT has told us the truth, idiots, no matter how nasty it is to you ex-students (nyah Ames!) Oh, now a chorus of voices will rise up, here where anyone can speak without even raising their hand, it is most irritating!

But you hard cases will want to know HOW I know this, which is really a useless diversion from my main aim of spreading the light and joy of DIVINE PRESENCE here among you ingrates who just attack me! (Sob!)

Let’s get real. I know it’s true because ROBERT said it’s true! Don’t you get it? Write it down so I don’t have to repeat myself, please. Oh wait, I like to repeat myself!

And the way you animals mock, insult and criticize me???? You have no idea how much I have to separate, start doing sequences like crazy, my satin undies get all knotted up from the effort!

But guess what, losers, I get the last laugh. I’ve had to do so many sequences this last week reading the blog, I’ve added 714 seconds to my astral body!!!!

Thank you Bruce!!!!

Your loving friend

3. My4bits - August 14, 2008

DC and friends:

“To maintain mental control it is necessary to undermine self-trust. This is insidiously done by removing the ways people can build trust in themselves. Self-trust is built by utilizing one’s own personal, firsthand experience as feedback. It is also built by sharpening mental and perceptual tools and frameworks in order to process, integrate, and evaluate one’s relation to the external world, as well as to inner dramas.

In it commonly assumed that the nature of spirituality is not only fundamentally different from ordinary experience, but that this difference is vastly superior. From this it is concluded that the test of truth or meaning used for ordinary experience are not relevant for the so-called higher truths that gurus and religion offer. This age-old separation of the spiritual from the worldly is deeply embedded in all of civilization. We view this split as tragic, and at the core of the fragmentation prevalent in the contemporary human psyche. The inner battle between the presumed higher and lower (or good and bad) parts of oneself often binds people with conflict by making them unable to accept themselves as whole human beings.”

— excerpted from “The Guru Papers, Masks of Authoritarian Power,” by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad.

Working with The Sequence for some time, I “verified” the truth of these words from The Guru Papers: By splitting you into good and bad, The Sequence binds you to an unresolvable inner conflict, undermining your self-trust and denying you the possibility of becoming a whole human being. A very effective, tool, indeed to maintain RB’s control of his self-serving, authoritarian hierarchy.

4. nosridammus - August 14, 2008

2 my4bits

Yep- the grand scam of the spiritual/industrial complex.

5. James Mclemore - August 14, 2008

271. Daily Cardiac (page 44)

“If I could only leave only one sentence for the blog it would be:

No one can awaken (become enlightened) on their own terms.

It is the impossibility of all impossibilities. We must give up our small will. Who do we give it up to? Higher forces directly, or a mediator.”

*******
The sentence you would leave, (‘no one can awaken on their own terms’), is a good one. I suspect that Nisargadatta, Jesus, Gurdjieff, The Buddha, Tolle, Adyashanti, and a host of others would be in complete agreement. The words probably have to do with the deceptive quality of the ego.
The problem for you, as I see it, is that this is exactly what you are trying to do with Robert Burton’s mishmash of Fourth Way system ideas (including his strange take on C Influence), and then this sequence stuff thrown into the pile. Instead of diminishing the sense of separateness, you may be increasing it.
You say “we must give up our small will”.
Are you sure what it is you are giving up and ‘who’ it is that is going to do that giving up?
(I will not even go into the possibility that if you did have something to give up and you were capable of it, RB is not a good candidate for giving anything valuable to)

Earlier in your post you say,

” I didn’t count on an entity in me opposing consciousness as much or more than the noble part of me wanted it.”

Again. Are you sure? Have you looked closely at these two entities that you speak of here. Are you sure it is an opposing force, and perhaps more importantly, are you sure of the nobility in the other force that you speak of? Are you certain you are not making substantial, things that if looked at a bit differently, appear to be a little more like finding out the Wizard of Oz was not who they thought he was? I am not saying there is no ‘sleep’, I guess I am only saying as you did, that “No one can awaken on their own terms”.

6. My4bits - August 14, 2008

James Mclemore, post 4; Daily Cardiac, post 271

Come on, admit it, DC — you’re busted, and by your own words.

7. Ames Gilbert - August 14, 2008

Daily Cardiac (#44-271 or thereabouts),
See, here is a really clear example of your dangerously muddled thinking. When you say, “I got bad news when an older student informed me that at best it took a lifetime to become conscious. The I got worse news when I was told that only 7 from our school would realize it in this lifetime”, you’re telling us that you adopted an entire belief system from someone else. You’re telling us you did this without verifying any of this rubbish for yourself. What were you thinking? I presume that you assumed this was passed on from Burton, and via an impeccable source, the ‘older student’? It didn’t occur to you that you might be replacing one misunderstanding (which was at least your own) about consciousness with another misunderstanding? It didn’t occur to you, and does not occur to you now that your understanding of consciousness was and is suspect, because it is shaped largely or entirely by others? Why the hell should you believe this ‘bad news’? Why would you adopt the idea that ‘it takes a lifetime’ (or, as Burton has also said, many lifetimes) as one of your basic premises? WTF does the noise babbled by anyone else, such as, “only 7 from our school would realize it in our lifetime”, matter the least bit to you? Why didn’t you ‘photograph’ the person who told you this stuff for lying? How could they possibly know? And you think that Burton claiming that Christ was ‘once on his third lifetime’ is some sort proof of something? And you go on and on in this vein for many more paragraphs, showing over and over that you are adopting Burton’s words without question.

If you have truly found reasons to trust Burton, fine. But the way you put things, I can only conclude that rather than trust, you have some deep faith that things will turn out to be all right in the end. But, that’s not the Fourth Way, which is what attracted a high percentage of the people who joined the Fellowship of Friends. I put my trust in him for a while; it was apparently required by the circumstances. But, I came to see that he did not enable or empower me, he did everything possible to make me more dependent, not independent. Almost everything he uttered, when it made sense at all, was designed to make me fearful or adoring. So, I withdrew my trust.

Daily Cardiac, don’t you dare call this an ‘ad hominem’ attack. I’m looking at your message, not the messenger. You may be impeccably clean, well dressed, tanned, and sincere, for all I care. Your message states clearly and unequivocally that you have adopted someone else’s claims as your beliefs, the very opposite of personal verification. This means—your spiritual house is built on sand…

8. My4bits - August 14, 2008

Today, in my “chain of 30 links” de-programming process, the topic was “Service.”

To free myself, I acknowledge that, although I professed for decades to dedicate my life to the service of Humanity, I managed in the end only to have served the self-aggrandizing goals of a warped “guru,” Robert Earl Burton. It is the tragedy of my life.

I hereby disavow my well-intentioned, but illusory and personally destructive pursuit, in service of the FoF, and adamantly re-claim my own humanity so that I may now serve my fellow man more honestly and truly.

9. My4bits - August 14, 2008

Ames, post 6

“But, I came to see that he did not enable or empower me, he did everything possible to make me more dependent, not independent. Almost everything he uttered, when it made sense at all, was designed to make me fearful or adoring. So, I withdrew my trust.”

And so did I.

Thanks, Ames, for your consistent insight and honesty.

10. veronicapoe - August 14, 2008

Bravo, you.

11. veronicapoe - August 14, 2008

7/my4bits, that is.

12. veronicapoe - August 14, 2008

you’re telling us that you adopted an entire belief system from someone else. You’re telling us you did this without verifying any of this rubbish for yourself. What were you thinking?

What many people don’t get, at least, not without considerable reflection and study, is that their belief systems can be influenced, substantially, by the use specific and identifiable techniques WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND CONSENT.

If I can control your behavior, UNDER ANY PRETENSE, I can affect your belief system. If I can induce you to do something dissonant with your self-concept, your self-concept will CHANGE to reduce the dissonance. I can modify YOUR self-concept by controlling YOUR behavior. Which means that if you trust me sufficiently in the beginning and I am knowledgeable and unscrupulous, I can unduly influence and defraud you.

13. veronicapoe - August 14, 2008

The real destructive hook is influencing people to distrust their own ability to think critically by leading them to relabel critical perceptions as “the many ‘I’s” or “formatory thinking.” “The many “I”s are the many lies.” By interrupting critical inquiry with “thought-terminating cliches,” persons implementing a thought-reform environment “nip in the bud” perceptions that could lead their perceivers to think for themselves.

Nothing comes from blaming persons who have been subjected to thought reform for their predicament except an additional layer of shame. My experience is, it’s much more illuminating to study the psychology of social influence and review the history of one’s own beliefs and perceptions in the light of that knowledge.

14. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

DC, if you have ears to hear, I hope you can see (though I doubt you have the ability) that your whole current belief system, and your weak ass defense of this farce IS FUCKED. Sleep well.

15. My4bits - August 14, 2008

brucelevy, post 13.

More words of wisdom from “the Brucerator.”

16. whalerider - August 14, 2008

veronicapoe:
You are awesome.

Ames:
You are the man.

Cardiac arrest:
“I didn’t count on an entity in me opposing consciousness as much or more than the noble part of me wanted it.”

This line of thinking is not only unhealthy it’s psychotic. There is nothing inside you opposing consciousness. That is impossible!

Consciousness just is, grasshopper. It’s not something you have to “do” and you don’t have to pay someone for it.

It’s really quite simple. Sometimes you are conscious of your inner world; sometimes you are conscious of the outer world. It is the yin and yang of existence, the ebb and flow of life, for goodness sake.

Attempting to cement your awareness to the outer world doesn’t make you into a conscious being! It will only make you obsessive and self deprecating because it is impossible to fully accomplish in any amount of lifetimes and therefore job security for guess who…

You have been slowly indoctrinated to believe that when you are sometimes conscious of your inner world that is called ‘sleep’. Eventually, you could be so convinced of this that you begin to mistrust yourself, inhibit your own critical thinking and before you realize it you are transformed into a follower of someone else’s agenda.

And guess what? In case you haven’t noticed, Robert’s narcissistic agenda is to use people for his own personal and sexual gratification.

This business of not being concerned about the past or the future only the present is a flashing neon sign broadcasting Robert’s supreme lack of conscience! He doesn’t give a shit about anyone but himself!

Are you on antidepressants or something? Don’t you get that? How much damage to others will it take for you to actually wake up to that fact?

BTW, you’ve been posting fairly regularly now, how’s the heart rate going? Better?

17. Across the River - August 14, 2008

44/219

Thanks Ellen for your thoughtful reply.

Most certainly, leaving is the strongest statement one can make. I realize there’s a bit of stuttering indignation in my response to those who find a broader common ground with current members. As do you, I also trust that all of our paths will reconnect further down the way, some sooner, some much later.

It took me years on the fence entertaining all the considerations possible regarding Robert’s lack of accountibility before I finally reached an understanding by default. Whatever Robert **was**, he **could not be** conscious. I’ve studied the nature of those years of polarized indecision and find a judgement was required in order to break free.

In the end, we are all one. Meanwhile, our time is limited and this knowledge effects my relationship to those imagining they have forever to sort it out. As I posted before, I believe the polarization between those in and those out is a natural one, only addressed superficially by eluding otherwise. I don’t feel responsible to provide this level of ease to those who choose to stay in the Fellowship, although like you I will help anyone who is grappling with the decision. It was an interesting turn of phrase you used in responding “… by the mere fact of stepping out, suddenly there are some [boundaries]that were not there even a few months ago.” For me, the process and act of stepping out changed my being in the world and nothing has been the same since. With this end result I’ve even entertained the notion of the FOF being a real school 😀

I recently watched a program about a yearly religious festival attended by Hindus, with gurus and babas all over the place holding court and manifesting their knowledge in ways particular to each. (We have a lot of knowledge being expressed here on the blog, I feel.) I was moved by one of the chants being sung that translated roughly into “If you call out from the road and no one answers, keep walking on alone.”

BTW, I do continue with one friend who remains in the FOF because I know conscience will win out over 30+ years of love and devotion to Robert and I am willing to wait for this beautiful person, but I consider the friendship exceptional and rare.

Best to you.

*********************

44/275 nigel

You’re an angel too. Glad to read your posts here 😉 We can be patient and meanwhile there’s ever-so-much to share. Life goes on!

18. James Mclemore - August 14, 2008

16. Across the River

“If you call out from the road and no one answers, keep walking on alone.”

***
Thank you for sharing that. That is a keeper!!

19. My4bits - August 14, 2008

Across the River, post 16:

“Most certainly, leaving is the strongest statement one can make. I realize there’s a bit of stuttering indignation in my response to those who find a broader common ground with current members. As do you, I also trust that all of our paths will reconnect further down the way, some sooner, some much later.”

Having left the Fellowship a year ago, after almost 30 years in the FoF, I must say that many of my most profound [former] connections remain with persons who are still members of the Fellowship. They appear in my dreams, again and again — sometimes as friend, or lover, or potential lover — and sometimes, as an enemy or foe. Understandably so, as they have been woven into the fabric of my psyche, over many years, and now they are gone.

This dream-work serves, I believe, to help me release them from my life, and from my “karma.” I view this process of separation as a necessary step in my continued evolution. From their perspective, however, I am a “descended octave.” Strange, is it not — how we manage to say “Good-bye” to each other across the Great Divide?

After a final dinner with two, very close member-friends, and after they had told me that this would be our final communication (given the task of not communicating with former students), they called out to me that they loved me. As I walked away into the night, their words rang full, and yet hollow…

So much pain.

Across the River, I honestly do not know how, or if, we will all connect, or re-connect, as time goes on. Sometimes I see the Greater Fellowship, and smaller cliques of former students, as relatively comfortable enclaves for those still in “limbo” — floating somewhere between there and here. I, myself, inhabit this uncertain and wobbly world.

But the beat goes on…

20. Reality Check - August 14, 2008

The Fellowship of Friends is promoting itself as a Fourth Way school again, at least according to its newsletter. Is the Fellowship a Fourth Way school? One of the main activities of a Fourth Way school according to Ouspensky is the awakening of conscience:

(From “The Fourth Way”)

So morality is always different, and it always changes. But conscience never changes. Conscience is a kind of emotional understanding of truth in certain definite relations, generally in relation to behaviour, to people and so on. This is always the same; it cannot change and it cannot differ in one nation or another, in one country or another, in one person or another.

The aim of the system is to bring man to conscience. Conscience is a certain faculty that exists in every normal man. It is really a different expression of consciousness, only, consciousness works more on the intellectual side, and conscience more on the moral side: it helps to realize what is good and what is bad in one’s conduct. Conscience is a state in which one cannot hide anything from oneself, and it must be developed in man. This development is parallel and simultaneous with the development of consciousness.

To have a moment of conscience is to feel at once all that you feel about somebody or something.

…and you will see how many contradictions there are in your emotions. Unless you have had this experience, you cannot imagine how many different feelings you can have. In a state of conscience we see them all at once. This is why it is such an unpleasant state. Conscience is not very far, only we have many methods of dealing with it to prevent ourselves feeling it…

I said that in a moment of conscience, whether you wish it or not, you will feel all your emotions on the same subject at once. But it is not a definition of conscience. Conscience can be defined as an emotional feeling of truth on a given subject. As I said, conscience is the same thing as consciousness, only it looks different to us. We are subjective, so we take things from a subjective point of view.

Seeing contradictions and conscience are connected, but they are not the same thing, and if you take them together you will never get anywhere.

At first, when conscience manifests itself in us, it turns against us, and we begin to see all our inner contradictions. Usually we cannot see them because we are always in one or another small compartment, but conscience can see from the top and show us that here we felt one thing, there another thing, and here again quite a different thing, all on the same subject.

Even quite apart from the question of conscience, it is important to find in yourself that, when you have strong emotions (it does not refer to small emotions), when you feel strongly about some particular thing, you may be practically certain that at another moment you will have a different emotion about the same thing.

When buffers begin to disappear and become less strong, conscience begins to manifest itself. In ordinary life it is kept down by buffers.

This is why people in the ordinary state cannot have conscience, because if conscience suddenly came, they would go mad.

No, as I said, conscience is a feeling possible for quite ordinary men without any school. It is a kind of inner feeling of truth in connection with one particular thing, or another thing, or a third thing. The connection may be wrong, but the feeling itself will be quite right.

Morality is always relative, conscience is absolute. Conscience is a special positive emotion. In our present state we have a very small trace of this emotion, sufficient to have a general feeling that something may be right and something else may be wrong, but insufficient to say definitely what is right and what is wrong. This has to be developed.

Before conscience can be opened fully, we must have will, we must be able to ‘do’, to act according to the dictates of our conscience, otherwise, if conscience awoke fully in man in his present state he would be a most miserable being; he would not be able to forget, not able to adapt to things, and not able to change anything. Conscience destroys buffers, so that man finds himself defenceless against himself, and at the same time he has no will, so he cannot change, cannot do what he knows is right. So first he must develop will, otherwise he will find himself in a very unpleasant situation, beyond his control When he acquires control, he may allow himself the luxury of conscience, but not before that.

You see, an inevitable part of the process of self-development is the awakening of conscience, and the awakening of conscience will prevent any possibility of using new powers for any wrong aim or purpose This must be definitely understood from the very beginning, because conscience, when it awakes, will not allow one to do anything selfish or contrary to other people’s interests, or harmful to anybody- nothing, in fact, that we may consider wrong or evil.

21. Alex - August 14, 2008

I found your site on technorati and read a few of your other posts. Keep up the good work. I just added your RSS feed to my Google News Reader. Looking forward to reading more from you down the road!

22. paulshabram - August 14, 2008

44-208 Daily Cardiac

There is much to work with in your post, but I will have to leave it for later. One thing that jumped out at me, and highlighted by the fascinating description of the Sequence, was:

“Pondering the unknowable does not help me to be present, so I don’t dwell on things like that.”

1. How do you know something is unknowable unless you ponder it?
2. You imply that thinking, or pondering, prevents you from “being present”. I think you have a different idea of what Self Remember is than I do.
SR is an exercise in self observation. “Looking” is not external looking. It’s looking externally and observing what reaction, thoughts, impression you have. It is looking inward and outward. Observation is somewhat objective, it does not entail intervention. There is no reason why thoughts, or anything else, need to suppressed to be present. It is my experience that SR is more productive if I am observing what happens normally. If I am being present with an objective observer, I am the only one that would know I was even practicing the exercise. If one is striving to be present or conscious all the time (which I am more and more convinced is unhealthy), then one would need to be present while thoughts, etc. are all going on normally. Otherwise, being dead would be the epitome of being conscious.
But the observing does have a modifying effect. The subject of “negative emotions” is a good example. Many of our negative emotions are not useful and some are. The unnecessary ones stem from “jumping to conclusions”, misconceptions, wrong information, or from not getting something we want, to name a few generators of NE. With an observer in operation, understanding of the situation may be more complete and one is better informed. The “many I’s” have access to the data. Under these circumstances, the negative emotion may simply not appear or may evaporate because the observer has rendered them irrelevant just by observing. Suppression of an negative emotion, which the FOF and you seem to teach, is wrong thinking IMO, because the suppression just replaces the negative emotion with another negative emotion about the first negative emotion. This is hardly productive. Transforming “friction” (suffering) cannot be accomplished by suppression. Making an enemy of your “lower self” is a function of the “lower self”.
There are proper and useful negative emotions. For example, if I observe someone attempting to murder my child, I am going to have a negative emotion about that and rightly so. If I am coerced to do something I don’t want to do, I am going to have a negative emotion about that as well. The NE is telling me something. No amount of objective observation is going to transmute the NE. If I have to rationalize the coercion of my child to do something he doesn’t want to to do, I haven’t transformed the suffering. I have just suppressed it and become complicit. There is a negative benefit to my child and to myself, the very definition of harm. And it doesn’t matter if you can rationalize the coercion of somebody else, it’s still harm. I contend that there is no place for such harm in self “awakening”.

23. nigel harris price - August 14, 2008

19 Reality Check

Did you just cut-and-paste that, as a ‘loaded gun’ (your usual tactics) or did you take the time to actually read it. If the aim was to use it in defence of your REB/FOF stance, then you have INCREDIBLY contradicted yourself…..Nigel.

24. Daily Cardiac - August 14, 2008

Ames – 6:

Ames, you read too much into my words. All I’m saying is that my own subjective picture of awakening was punctured. Whether my incoming version was right or the older student’s was right is not the point.

The experience served as a sort of calibration for me. You assume many things, most of all that I don’t have the ability to verify truth and that my words are not based on my own experiences, but are simply being mimicked.

The real difficulty you have with my words is that they essentially reside outside of your belief system.

“If you have truly found reasons to trust Burton, fine.” I have.

25. Reality Check - August 14, 2008

Trying to correct the misperceptions of the emotionally disturbed using ordinary logic demonstrates far less judgment than that possessed by the deranged.

26. nigel harris price - August 14, 2008

23 Reality Check

Talk about ‘pouring from the empty into the void! (GIG). And, if you want to get anywhere (either in the FOF or in Life, wherever you find yourself) try searching for an Essence Characteristic within, nourishing and flourishing it, then we may both have a ‘higher level’ from which to discuss ‘esotera’. (i.e. I am not the least moved, either emotionally, or with ‘quivering sphincter syndrome’, by your petty derivative argumentation!).

27. lauralupa - August 14, 2008

Skeptical Optimist 285, 288

Dear Joel, thanks for your comments. LOL
I am sure you did your best with what you had in your hands!
It’s just that the original material was not… how should I put it?
Very cohesive

One can use all the glue in the world, but if the pieces don’t fit, the result just won’t look right. And Robert’s thinking is so muddled and fragmentary that as soon as you go beyond reading it as separate one-liners you get into trouble.

Having done some editing in the past myself, I appreciate and respect your efforts!

28. Allan S - August 14, 2008

Paulshabram #20…Brilliant post! I feel the need to reprint the following two bits:

… If one is striving to be present or conscious all the time (which I am more and more convinced is unhealthy), then one would need to be present while thoughts, etc. are all going on normally. Otherwise, being dead would be the epitome of being conscious.

…Making an enemy of your “lower self” is a function of the “lower self”

Daily Cardiac, following on from that I have two questions, if you don’t mind; From where do you Trust? And secondly, where is your “conscious” teacher when he fulfils his more degrading desires?

29. Mick Danger - August 14, 2008

Apparently my words have been misquoted and misintrepreted.
What I said was “Wish Greg Were Dead”.
And there were a number of complaints.
But this time no apology.

30. ralphbarcode - August 14, 2008

25 Reality Check

“Trying to correct the misperceptions of the emotionally disturbed using ordinary logic demonstrates far less judgment than that possessed by the deranged.”

When are we going to get rid of this lunatic (Greg)? Do we really need to see his sick little drama play out to its inevitable hate-filled conclusion again?

31. Ames Gilbert - August 14, 2008

Reality Check (#45-19 or thereabouts),
Thank you very much for collecting all those references to Conscience from “The Fourth Way”.
For me, the phrase, “The aim of the system is to bring man to conscience”, is the bedrock, the whole point of why I sought a school. I hoped that a teacher would help further that aim within me.
I’m going to repeat Burton’s words again, exactly as uttered in 1994:

Conscience is just a collection of “I”s; anyone accumulating too much material there should leave the school.

This one sentence should send anyone interested in the Fourth Way screaming from the Fellowship of Friends, for it reveals the utterly fraudulent nature of Beloved Teacher, the fact that he knows nothing of the Fourth Way apart from parroted phrases, and that he has no conscience himself. And in this fraud, Daily Cardiac trusts!

32. Ames Gilbert - August 14, 2008

Across the River (#45-16 or thereabouts),
You “entertained the notion of the FOF being a real school”.
You might be interested in some thoughts I had about the same subject in post #9-440, or thereabouts.
The heading was, “School. What is a real school? Is the FOF a real school?”

Veronicapoe (#45-11 and 12, or thereabouts,
Thank you for those observations; you make some tremendously important points. I think that the study you suggest is one of the most relevant if we are interested in examining the ‘cultural soup’ we are all swimming in. How are our thoughts and opinions formed? Are there particular stages of our development (in many areas) when we are especially vulnerable to certain ‘programming’?
There is an area of knowledge for study called ‘Neuro-Linguistic Programming—NLP’ that goes into one aspect of this. It appears to have been used and abused liberally in our culture; especially abused in advertising and politics!

33. veramente - August 14, 2008

Daily Cardiac,
I am not a good writer like you or so many others here. But when I read your posts I can feel you do not ever get to the meat of the discussion.
Maybe for you coming here is to feel good about yourself, to assert your belief system, to make it stronger in fact, bullet-blog proof.

What perhaps you do not realize fully is that ex-members, me included, have at some point in their fof life tried your intellectual game. I can understand you must defend your position after all because you have invested a lot of time and resources in it. In fact you may have successfully killed your conscience, your pure intuition of what is right or wrong even in yourself.

34. Elena - August 14, 2008

My4bits, Thank you again for your posts.
And Greg for yours, that was useful to remember.

Hi Paul,
May I join you in this exploration? First I would like to comment on the fact that it seems the Fellowship distorted our understanding of negative emotions so very badly that you still think that affirming something with great force is a negative emotion. Avoiding your son’s murder is not a negative emotion, it is an affirmation of life and maybe this affirmation of life is the root that we could hang from to follow the thread.

What the Cult taught us was to allow it to neglect “us”, “our presence”, “our life” and not
oppose it because opposing it was said to be a negative emotion. Hence it weakened our sense of self as much as our sense of self respect and self worth which are all aspects of dignity. Dignity is one of the main qualities of the I. It is in every human being whether we have worked on our selves or not. The difference is in how we are conscious of it and react to its being abused or exalted. In relation to Robert we over exalted Robert’s dignity and brought it to idolatry and in relation to ourselves we undermined it and fell into deep forms of inner considering or self denial “en masse”.

The outer expression of this self denial rests in the practices we allowed the Fellowship to take away from us: No self expression, no freedom to communicate with each other or the world outside, no freedom to express our essence and adapt to a fixed form from Robert, which may all be legitimate practices in the way of the monk or the yogi but not in the Way of Life. All these and more belong to the sphere of the I in the aspects of dignity and when they are weakened the individual concerned is weakened so submission, depression, abnegation and other behaviour typical in the Fellowship and other Cults as well as concentration camps, prisons or similar, easily develop. The fascinating thing about Cults is that people allow themselves to get there “voluntarily” and this is what I am deeply interested in coming to understand.

So if we can understand that what is at stake is the “affirmation of life” and “dignity” as an aspect of it, when a person reacts forcefully against anything that is threatning it, it is not a negative emotion. It is a natural reaction against the threat to its integrity. The difference between a person who uses a system or not is not in the impulse to react but in the response itself. In most cases in regular life, people hurt each other all the time because we are rarely aware of other’s well being unless we are identified with them. So all those we overrun because we don’t even see them tell us we are overrunning them. We get great photographs everywhere and that is why regular society is much healthier than any Cult. It is the keeper of what has already been gained by humanity.

A person who works with a system has the opportunity to react differently to the situation. The difference is IN THE REACTION but never in the abolition of a response which is what the Fellowship dominated us to do and that is where all the harm was able to get loose. It “neutralized” us. We became the “Non doers” whether we were being raped, abused or being ripped off.

In regular conditions there is a healthy ball bouncing off people calling each other to attention about minor things and more serious measures for more serious threats but even humanity has abolished the death sentence as an easy option in most cases of abuse or crime. (Which makes it easier to measure the horror of throwing people out without a right to defend themselves in the Fellowship. To many, this practice can destroy their sense of worth for their whole lifetime). It is good for us to be aware of this “condition” because it accounts a great deal for the long lengths of time so many of us spent inside. The other side of it is that we were the “survivors”, “better” “stronger” “had not failed” “had not been thrown out” but ironically our mechanisms to react NATURALLY to abuse were so low that we couldn’t leave or let them throw us out.

Going back to the idea of negative emotions, strength and firmness is not only natural, it is also necessary. Everyone needs a great deal of it to get by in life and to protect himself from life. Life, beautiful as it is, is not a playground or a modelling club like the Fellowship pretends to be and without the necessary strength, people get run over as we all did.

Something else we’ve forgotten to deal with in relation to strong reactions is when they present themselves and whether one is being first or second force.

Working with a System there is the opportunity to respond forcefully to a situation of crime and avoid it or respond gently to a situation of abuse and give the aggresor the opportunity to see it for what it is but in this case, the individual working must be both willing and able to absorb the suffering without giving it back, “reacting” or buffering it.
“Transformation of suffering” is not swallowing your suffering unconditionally as the Fellowship Cult imposed on its members. It allows for the process of conscience and consciousness described in post 19 offered by Greg to take place. People can SEE each other for a moment in time and love bonds them with the interaction. The victim of the aggression absorbs the suffering by not identifying with it and the aggressor is raised in his being. It is a miraculous process in which the individuals involved move beyond their immediate reality to the reality of the laws working behind them. They actualize the spiritual in the process or spiritualize the physical. Both processes are “sacred” or “miraculous”. They also happen all the time in regular conditions amongst people in essence but the individuals involved do not “label” them like we do.

Your posts raises so many issues but this is long enough already. Thanks.

35. whalerider - August 14, 2008

Reality Check:
Nice post on conscience.

my4bits:
Wow, 30 years. Welcome home. You brought tears to my eyes.

Ames:
NLP is based in part on the work of one of the most influential Psychiatrists and Hypnotherapists of all time, Dr. Milton Erickson. I highly recommend the book, “Uncommon Therapy” for further reading. He was an amazing dude.

I think it is important to repeat: not to be concerned about the past or the future, only the present, speaks to a lack of conscience and leads to sociopathic behavior.

36. Elena - August 14, 2008

Language is the blood of the Spirit.
Please keep talking and have a great day.
Love to you all.
Elena

37. dream catcher - August 14, 2008

….I heard it to the grape vine (what’s left of it)

35 students went to see this guy Hawkins in Arizona
8 (inner circle-ish) got a phone call that same evening from RT to choose between Robert/FOF or the Hawkins guy

Same powertrip as Adyadhanti last year

38. whalerider - August 14, 2008

dream catcher:
All the way to Arizona? It always amazes me to what lengths people will go to find the truth within themselves.

Elena:
Language is also a virus. Handle it with care. I hope you have a great day, too.

39. Opus 111 - August 14, 2008

35# Dream catcher

I am not sure they were given a choice, this time. I have it they were shown the door, I mean the gate.

40. elena - August 14, 2008

Whalerider,

Poverty is not in how much people have but in how much they are willing to ruin.

41. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

37. Opus 111

How dare anyone question the Queen’s omnipotence (or is it impotence)? Off with their fucking head’s.

42. whalerider - August 14, 2008

Thanks Elena, I’ll pass that on to my ex-wife.

43. elena - August 14, 2008

Whalerider,

In a marriage both people are equally responsible, they both do their best and it still fails. Remember that so that you can forgive both her and yourself.

44. Daily Cardiac - August 14, 2008

Paul 20:

“1. How do you know something is unknowable unless you ponder it?
2. You imply that thinking, or pondering, prevents you from “being present”. I think you have a different idea of what Self Remember is than I do.”

I think there are categories of the unknowable; some things are unknowable but can be knowable once given some thought or with more information.

I was referring to the “Absolute” , which is a very broad and abstract area. I come back to it from time to time but it’s not something I “Need” to know the answers to in order to do the work.

There is a time to ponder and a time to clear the mind and “be in the moment.” Pondering is a favorite pastime of the lower self – sometimes called “daydreaming” or imagination. But legitimate pondering has a place.

Regarding doing both at once – pondering and being present; that is possible but not always practical or acheiveable. For me it works better to set aside some time just to clear the mind and watch, hear, move, etc., and simply take in the impressions of the moment. The pondering comes whether I want it or or not.

45. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

42. Daily Cardiac
42. Daily Cardiac

Aside from your ridiculous horse shit, and contrary to what you’ve said, you apparently DON’T have better things to do with your time within the FOF. I get the feeling that this (the blog) is the more real part of your life, and in the FOF you’re just another mindless drone repeating the same old crap, for what reason I can’t fathom. I’m sure the more intelligent “members” see you for what you are, a shill (and not a very good one), and just another follower with an inflated sense of worth and value to the FOF. You could leave tomorrow, and the day after very few would remember you or give a shit. Sleep well.

46. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

for DC, paraphrased from the esoteric teachings of the Beatles:

I’m a loser
I’m a loser
And I’m not what I appear to be…

Although I laugh and I act like a clown
Beneath this mask I am wearing a frown
My tears are falling like rain from the sky
Is it for her (RB) or myself that I cry

What have I done to deserve such a fate
I realize I have left it too late
And so it’s true, pride comes before a fall
I’m telling you so that you won’t lose all

47. paulshabram - August 14, 2008

32 Elena
Thanks for the thoughts.

About my examples of negative emotions: The one you singled out was intended to get attention. A shock of sorts. You bring up in me something interesting, however.

Some years ago, I was attacked physically several times with the intent to kill me. Most of these occurred while I was working in a psychiatric ward. My memories are quite vivid of these events as you might guess. In all cases I successfully defended myself with a distinct and powerful intention of not harming the attacker. In one case I was seriously stunned by the initial attack and was not able to protect my assailant from my defense. He landed on his head and was severely injured. Oddly, in every instance I experienced no negative emotion at all, not during, not after. In fact what I experienced was compassion, and even during the attack, a sense of love. Weird huh?

On the other hand, I feel lots of negative emotions when I am being “taken for ride”. These are useful for the recognition, then they can get in the way of mitigating the damage and protecting myself.

On the occasions when I saw someone trying to do harm to my kids I definitely experienced anger, which I would consider a negative emotion. It is an objective classification. It is not “bad” to have a negative emotion. I have presumed that that’s why the word “negative” instead of “Bad” was used. It’s inadvisable to let them take over and do more damage than good. It is right and correct to have this negative emotion about harm to my children.

I think the suppression of negative emotions promoted by the FOF is not what was being talked about in the 4th Way. I feel it was misunderstood and misappropriated by RB and the like. The evidence of that is clear in the Via del Sol and in the war against the so called “lower self”.

I also call into question Ouspensky’s assertion of higher centers and that negative emotions take energy away from “higher centers”. This is part of the faith.

48. elena - August 14, 2008

Paul,

I think we need to classify in detail what we understand by negative emotions, something we never did in the Fellowship. Abolishing the expression of some kind makes one weaker others make one stronger.

No time right now but definitely worth clarifying for ourselves who have been so confused by the Fellowship.

49. Daily Cardiac - August 14, 2008

To Allen – 26:

“Daily Cardiac, following on from that I have two questions, if you don’t mind; From where do you Trust? And secondly, where is your “conscious” teacher when he fulfils his more degrading desires?”

Trust (in spiritual matters) ideally comes from higher centers, our soul, or our spirit matter – whichever term works for you. This part of us has a memory bank and a mulittude of experiences to draw on.

People often try to engage spiritual truths through the senses or the intellect. This can often produce wrong or ill fated results.

As far as the second point, we obviously disagree on whether Robert is or is not conscious, as would attest by your status of ex-member.

You may think by the things you hear second hand about him, completely cut off from his possible motivations, reasons, that he has disqualified himself from abiding in that conscious realm. I have not disqualified him. One possible reason is that I am looking at both sides of the ledger – the things you allude to plus all the obvious good he has accomplished. More importantly, I may be seeing different possible motivations for what you may think are questionable actions; a method to his madness, if you will.

No one can tell the value of a bank account by looking only at one side of the ledger, either the credits or the debits. One needs to see both sides to know it there is a positive balance or a deficit. One also has to recognize and value the good accurately, in context with the other – in your eyes, questionable or dubious, actions.

50. Reality Check - August 14, 2008

“You see, an inevitable part of the process of self-development is the awakening of conscience, and the awakening of conscience will prevent any possibility of using new powers for any wrong aim or purpose This must be definitely understood from the very beginning, because conscience, when it awakes, will not allow one to do anything selfish or contrary to other people’s interests, or harmful to anybody- nothing, in fact, that we may consider wrong or evil.” -Ouspensky

“Being” could be defined as both knowing right from wrong on a level that is constant from place to place, constant among all people at all times, something universal and unchanging and being able to act on that knowledge.

Can Robert Earl Burton really be considered a Fourth Way adept qualified to lead a “school?” He has invested an enormous amount of energy in promoting the rumors of his “consciousness” but can there really be consciousness without being? Is it possible to do harm to people and be conscious in the same sense that consciousness and conscience have to exist simultaneously in a man’s being?

That there are many men struggling in the world that have had sex with Burton when they were under the impression that for their own good they needed to do whatever their teacher asked of them even when it went against the interests of their essence and even when it would do damage to them for years on end is not a little detail that is easily dismissed with the word “morality.” That any reasonable person, much less a conscious being, could easily understand that sex through spiritual coercion would leave psychological scars on anyone makes it clear that Burton has not even the glimmer of a conscience.

What is perplexing is that the situation in this conscienceless “school” is such that hundreds and hundreds accumulating there have no idea what conscience is as well. These followers all now know full well that Burton gets these men alone and then tells them that they have to have sex with him or they will lose their spiritual possibilities, meanwhile the state these men are in is that of completely trusting children confronted with a man they imagine cannot do wrong because he possesses a conscience far superior to their own. But it is a complete lie that Burton has a superior understanding of right and wrong and now the membership all know that it is a lie. Yet they not only remain there but occasionally come out and very clumsily try to justify their agreement with Burton’s evil activities because they want something that can’t be had: consciousness without conscience.

51. My4bits - August 14, 2008

Daily Cardiac:

The Fellowship of Friends is a closed system that is entirely self-referential. Your posts illustrate precisely how this fact enables you to deflect any challenges from outside by calling them limited understanding.

52. Opus 111 - August 14, 2008

Daily Cardiac

I know you have received quite a few questions and you tell us your time is quite valuable…

However, there are a few questions that you seem to be quite intent at evading. I will simply restate the categories.

1. What do you do with “verifications” that go against the dogma in place. You said that reading the passage by Nisagardatta provided by Ellen was interesting and even possibly useful to you. That is currently considered anathema in FOF and cause for prompt dismissal. What say you?

2. Perhaps more importantly, you have conscientiously avoided answering any question about conscience. Ames has been reminding you of the subject, that elephant beneath the persian rugs of the Galleria. I have listed several in post 249 of the previous page (nothing original, just plain old stuff). Would love to hear your clear-minded answers.

i will be waiting…

53. Opus 111 - August 14, 2008

Daily Cardiac

Post 48 presents the subject of conscience (lack thereof in this case) in very clear terms.

I will be waiting…

54. My4bits - August 14, 2008

A while back, sitting next to RB at a formal dinner, he looked intently at me and said, “The Fourth Way system does contain useful information, but I am giving you something better.” He was referring to the then new direction of the Thirty Stars, keying, and the Sequence.

If the Fellowship is now reverting to calling itself a Fourth Way School, it is purely a business decision. It is most likely that the “new direction” did not generate the ROI (Return on Investment) that RB had expected in terms of increasing revenues from existing and new members.

And what a shame that students were asked during this period to ‘release’ their accumulations of Fourth Way literature. Oh well, I don’t predict that many will go out and purchase new copies of “In Search of the Miraculous.”

The Fellowship (and RB) is aging and is in a state of rapid decay. From here on out, any changes in the “form of the school” will be stop-gaps.

55. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

The question that comes to mind for me now is who’s the bigger idiot, this turd DC, or us for continually engaging an impervious mass of bull shit. If people here think this discussion, with continual skirting of the major issues by DC, is for the on-the-fence people, or people who are considering joining, I think we’re seriously deceiving ourselves. It’s trying to reason with a computer with some serious virus ware going on. The people who know DC is an asshole, spouting party line don’t need to be convinced. The people who don’t, are of the same bent, and are completely useless in an earnest exploration.

56. Mick Danger - August 14, 2008

53 Bro
STOMP, STOMP, STOMP
Call the paramedics

57. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

54. Mick Danger

Buck Deerfield sez “settle down”.

58. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

54. Mick Danger

What r u, 2 of clubs?

I can say that, I know who he is.

59. Rear View Mirror - August 14, 2008

Bruce, yes, the conversation goes in circles. DC likes that. He continues evading, and we keep chasing. It’s a game. He’ll say some things that sound sincere, and then it lures people in. Sounds a bit like Burton, that way, doesn’t it?

Cardiac and team are mainly here to do the following:

1) Get the conversation away from Robert Burton and his motives and agendas.
2) Switch the conversation toward them.

It’s a fairly simple strategy. It works for a certain amount of time.

But I think as long as people remember to keep talking about Burton, the strategy not only doesn’t work, but it backfires.

60. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

57. Rear View Mirror

Good point.

61. Daily Cardiac - August 14, 2008

Paul – 20:

“There are proper and useful negative emotions. For example, if I observe someone attempting to murder my child, I am going to have a negative emotion about that and rightly so. If I am coerced to do something I don’t want to do, I am going to have a negative emotion about that as well.”

The second example you mentioned can often be gratuitous, and actually not helpful with regards to looking “within.” In this case it may be better to stop things at the coercion stage by being the first force.

62. Daily Cardiac - August 14, 2008

Opus 111 – 50:

I’ll do my best to address this area.

63. Rear View Mirror - August 14, 2008

“In this case it may be better to stop things at the coercion stage by being the first force.”

Good grief, WHAT are you talking about?! Here’s an example of first force:

Follower being coerced by Robert Burton: “Robert, no I am not interested. And by the way, from what I’ve heard, you ask EVERY young male the same question. You really need to get some psychiatric help. I’m concerned about your abuse of power, and I’m going to report this to the Fellowship Board and bring this up at the next meeting.”

Robert’s likely response: “Take a long leave of absence, dear, but first are you sure you don’t want to?”

64. rich - August 14, 2008

“Er , gee TC”.

65. dream catcher - August 14, 2008

53. brucelevy – August 14, 2008

The question that comes to mind for me now is who’s the bigger idiot, this turd DC, or us for continually engaging an impervious mass of bull shit.
57. Rear View Mirror

Cardiac and team are mainly here to do the following:

1) Get the conversation away from Robert Burton and his motives and agendas.
2) Switch the conversation toward them.

It’s a fairly simple strategy. It works for a certain amount of time.

But I think as long as people remember to keep talking about Burton, the strategy not only doesn’t work, but it backfires.

I agree. Peter I? most likely alias Cardiac has his own agenda
he probably gets paid for it and we….. are falling for it

Ignore the guy is my policy

66. Across the River - August 14, 2008

18

Dear My4bits,

Well said. It seems the inevitable separation and loss is understood in everyone’s own time. You expressed it beautifully.

My post’s reference to our paths reconnecting is on that scale of knowing the **patience of angels** (thanks nigel) and optimism that **all** are on their own way. As you suggested, how or if that can be applied practically is questionable.

What a cautionary tale is the Fellowship, though, in misusing the knowledge of scale to separate from life.

I’m glad you’re posting here. I think your clear and honest voice will help others in that limbo. Thank you, my4bits.

*********************

20 paulshabram

For eyes that can see, ears that can hear, another generous post.

67. Across the River - August 14, 2008

30 Ames

Yes, now I remember this post. The POV definitely bares reposting, so…..allow me 🙂

Ames Gilbert says:
May 22, 2007 at 6:32 pm

School. What is a real school? Is the FOF a real school?

To my understanding, Gurdjieff insisted the Fourth Way requires an individuation process. The paths of seekers require them to make the “Hero’s Journey”, a real journey that only means something if there is a true risk, including the risk of failure. Initiation or graduation only happens if the initiate takes responsibility, undertakes the risk and passes through. Theoretically, a school has to graduate its students, so they have to break away, or be broken away, to individuate. They must actually expose themselves to hazard; the hero’s journey has no guarantee of success. If the path is safeguarded, the outcome assured, and the risk removed, then there is no graduation, no growth.

In my opinion, the Fellowship IS a real school, but not the way Howard or Siddiq think. In my opinion, it does, in fact, produce men number four. In every essential, based on my experience and observation of the other ‘products’ of the FOF, one goes there in order to prepare to leave (I know, ‘crazy wisdom’). However, there doesn’t seem to be the apparatus to produce men number five, or the ‘space’, were that to occur. There is not enough being to keep a number five around; there is no real work for them to do (regurgitating Burton’s angles or becoming a mini–Robert doesn’t count, folks).

Burton may be a man number five; it appears one can be a man number five and be damaged, though. See Ouspersky’s remarks on ‘black magicians’, and my interpretation of Gurdjieff’s point of view of this subject in post (#8-228). Gurdjieff quite explicitly states that there is an absolute barrier to further development if the wrong choice is made at the time of crystallization. So, sorry, no man number 7.3 on the way to 8, let alone number six.

Burton seems to desperately need a certain number of students to stick around to feed his needs; see how he encourages immaturity and dependence, see how he is making a new religion. Those who fall prey to the manifold temptations he offers become stuck in his worldview. Those who don’t, who are repelled or whose conscience wakes up, must leave—the esoteric purpose of school.

This leads me to another question. Is Burton’s behavior intentional? I have spent many an hour, over the years, wondering. If it is, it is certainly the act of the ages, because it is indistinguishable from severe mental illness (extremes of narcissism and satyriasis). Hey, maybe it is ‘crazy wisdom’ on steroids? My conclusion is no. Burton seems to have the power of the ‘black magician’, but his octave is descending; now he is a prisoner of his decision to use his power for personal aggrandizement; his is, in an important sense, being used. For me, a major clue is in the lies included at the founding and the energy used to cover up those lies. The house was ‘built upon the sand’. Burton kept the dark parts secret for as long as he could (1970-1984), and denied many aspects for far longer still. It doesn’t do much good to act without an audience, in secrecy. It seems to me, it is the situation that throws students off, not the volition of Burton. If individuating students was the intention, he could have shown his dark side much sooner, or could have ‘arranged’ (with his own Judas) to be exposed. So, no, not intentional. But nevertheless when you look at things this way, the FOF is still a pretty successful school. Those who join are ironically unaware of its true nature and workings.

So, the difficulties and the hazards necessary for successful initiation cannot be faked. The initiates must take actual risks. Not all make it, we just didn’t understand this beforehand. We sought our version of the hero’s journey. We were certainly naïve, maybe we had to be. We embarked. What we wished was granted. Most of us came out the other end with something worth the price. The risks had to be real. There could not be a “nice group of people” we could hang out with for the rest of our days, in comfort, assured of salvation. No community. Not the happy ending that we imagined, but another kind.

I say, everything really is perfect. That doesn’t mean we don’t agonize about the price, the damage done to people. It doesn’t mean we lose our humanity and regard the lost people as some kind of compost. Rather, we can now know true compassion, and maybe offer real help, based on an understanding that has been paid for by truly ‘living the questions’.

Why lend energy to ending the Fellowship? It does its job well. It is far from offering the only way to become a man number four, and reminding seekers of this is one of the purposes of this blog (there ARE other paths, and maybe faster), but it is the way for some. Certainly anyone trying to persuade students to leave is wasting their time. As Siddiq said, none of us wants to trade places with the other. But, we can encourage, and we can extend a hand when it is needed, maybe provide some warmth and shelter to those who have just landed, shivering, from their journey.

With love to all,
Ames

P.S. the term “hero’s journey” was coined by Joseph Campbell. If you’ve never read any of his books, “Myths to Live By” would be a good start, but they are all great.

68. Rear View Mirror - August 14, 2008

63. dream catcher… Ignore who?
————–
By the way, Ton we need you man. You pack some of the best posts into the fewest lines. Keep ’em coming when you get back from vacation, or wherever.

69. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

63. dream catcher

70. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

63. dream catcher

Good call. We ignored him back in the 70’s and 80’s. That person has popped up in my mind occasionally too for DC. He was always like a jonny-be-goode automaton. He always had pat “angles” that exactly reflected the current status quo. He lives in severe tunnel vision. He has his blinders on and wears them prowdly, and if you try to take them off he’ll just slap your hand aside. Really, we’re talking to a fucking wall.

71. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

pardon the spelling

72. will coyote - August 14, 2008

I have a question. I read hat the sequence is an idea of Burton , who was “ispired” from Filocalia; In the Pilgrin’s way there is a man that learn to “live” with the Jesu’s mantra 24 hour a day. I think that works( like the number counting in many Orage-gurdjieff exercise) to channel a part of the mind to no wander, leaving another part( may be emotional part) to enjoy what is just here. A sort of sound to cover another noise to listen silence. But instead of this result it can makes a man schizoid. What do you think about it ?

73. brucelevy - August 14, 2008

If anyone is familiar with the show Dexter, he’s a cop who’s also a psychopathic murderer. But he only kills serial killers. He’s a cop. My point, in reference to DC, is Dexter found out early that he was different. His father knew he was “different” so he gave Dexter his own moral standards to use as his own when he would eventually be alone. He was a tabla rasa without a conscience that depended on someone else’s moral code as a guide.

Thats PE (or PI sp?) DC. He came with a blank slate and no conscience, and became the perfect front and shill. No reactions from conscience, and able to regurgitate the dogma at will. Completely impenetrable and steadfast. The perfect sheep. The fact that there’s some seriously damaged machinery in there doesn’t matter to RB because he is serving the cause. If he disappears by one or another reason, or goes over the edge….he lost the school, or this, or that. He’s expendable.

74. will coyote - August 14, 2008

In Theravada Buddhism there are two words(if i rememberwell) “VICARA” and “VITARA”: one is the initial putting attention on the objiect; the second is going on to put the attention: i have thinh about Be and Long Be…

75. Rear View Mirror - August 14, 2008

70. “but instead of this result it can makes a man schizoid. What do you think about it ?”

Well, I’m not sure what you’re asking or what you’re saying. Maybe it’s the “english as second language” issue, but if you’re asking whether Robert Burton’s ideas can “make a man schizoid,” I will only say this… I’ve perceived many of Robert Burton’s ideas to be extremely unhealthy.

I have learned to be skeptical of world views that promote the following:

• fear
• anxiety
• a stifling of self expression and creativity
• self-doubt
• lack of self confidence
• giving up your critical thinking
• a lack of openness to ideas outside the group
• a feeling of separateness or superiority over others
• a disdain for those outside the group
• a pretense that we know what happens to us when we die
• unhealthy and hateful sexual habits
• mind games to simply experience “states,” many of which are not spiritual but are simply biochemical.
• justification for hurting others

And more.

So, I don’t know about schizophrenia per se, but I do believe that Burton’s ideas and our involvement in the FOF are unhealthy for us. Like many diseases, the effects can be latent for years and show themselves later. But I also believe it’s possible for each of us to heal from this insanity, partly from seeking help and partly from changing our thoughts and attitudes. A huge, huge part of that involves open discussion — discussion that includes clear and frank communication about Burton and the Fellowship of the Friends. And no bullshit.

76. Elena - August 14, 2008

We spend so much time saying no but do we really know why people write here or could you not just offer your own solution instead of rejecting what others do?

I objected to Daily Cardiac using this medium to express his agenda but now I realize that it is as valid for him to do so as for anyone else to express theirs. We all have an agenda or an aim, consciously or not, whether for our own selves or others and it is fine. I write because I need to communicate, to hear myself and fight, share, listen. It’s all good at the moment.

I am actually very glad to see Girard’s or Peter I’s. notes here because they remind me of what I saw so clearly in Girard. Isn’t it something to consider the fact that if it is not Girard they all think and behave so much alike? Could they have managed it so well had they planned it? Does it not make you, Peter or Steven D. or whoever is Cardiac wonder who you might actually be if you weren’t just Girard Haven or your desire to be him? His role? Isn’t it fascinating to you to consider you still have time to be yourself and not a role? That works equally for Girard, Peter or Steven.

It’s easy for some here to say No, don’t waste your time writing to these people but why wouldn’t they be allowed to tell us of their deepest dreams and disintegrities? Won’t it help them to see themselves after writing? Sure it will. Like anyone else here they’ll see that they cannot, have not encompassed as many possibilities as the different bloggers offer. And frankly for me, it is wonderful to think that Girard might be so desperate he’s actually writing here and I can write back but it is rather unlikely, it is probably Peter. Since Girard is the role, he’s probably busy enough brainwashing those on the fence a little more deeply.

Who ever it is, it is good to see you. Why would you not be able to defend your “School” or what you think it is? It is also very good to see your disciplined style and the tone is, no matter what, beautifully even. My husband has the same wavelength that he tunes into and out of. He tunes into it while he gets dressed with the high alchemy uniform and out of it when he takes it off. It is a complete ritual. A whole personality gets connected to it and he is Girard Haven, the “conscious role”. Something like superman and Clark Kent and they are both equally silly. Does it not make you a little uncomfortable to realize now that we, at fifty and beyond, are still such childish people? Does anyone of you know real adults?

I don’t. Probably 99 percent of the people I know are just kids playing to be adults but pretending they are adults trying to be mature when ideally we’d be mature people working with the same joy and interest that children play. I miss that time when we’d go up to other children and we’d soon be playing something fun without too many questions. During the game we’d get to know each other.

My god-father is eighty two and he plays golf and bridge religiously every week until two weeks ago that he is not being able to sleep. He decided to adopt us when my mother lived and to become my mother when my mother died. He’d write to me almost every day when we were in the boarding school in England and call me every week for forty years no matter where I happen to be. He says he has a telephone book just for my diferent telephone numbers. He is the best person I know, much better than I have ever been, even with my children. The older people have something we’ve mostly lost. If you have old people you can spend some time with, take advantage of the opportunity. They are healthy in a way we’ll never be, even if we turn out to be somewhat decent after all these years.

77. Rear View Mirror - August 14, 2008

By the way, about this one…

• mind games to simply experience “states,” many of which are not spiritual but are simply biochemical.

Who knows? What on earth do we really know?

We each experienced things from our “internal efforts” in the FOF, and before the FOF, and after the FOF. And similar to different types of meditation that are available to us right now, we may have gained something from that — from “being present,” and separating from the “I”s and so forth. But I think we often talk about the results of these “efforts” without really understanding and knowing the full effects, if any at all. If we use the language, the terminology, we think that means something, and that we must know and we must understand. But quite often it only means we understand the language, the terminology.

78. Elena - August 14, 2008

71 Bruce
Sounds like Girard all right. His father was a military but with some social work of importance. Many, many went to his funeral, Girard would say. Essentially good people but with a very particular agenda that can easily get more and more deformed.

79. Rear View Mirror - August 14, 2008

Elena, no one is stopping you or discouraging you from interacting with anyone you want to on the blog. In my opinion, however, their goal is to bring the focus of the conversation on them so that we are conversing less about RB, and so that it’s more challenging to find the really “meaty” posts. Like I said, I think as long as people keep doing what they’re doing — making some really cogent observations about RB and the FOF — then that strategy backfires.

You may think DC and others are being completely sincere, and can relate to that viewpoint. But I don’t believe they are.

They may not call it this, but the FOF has a public relations department, just like any other organization where the public’s perception of that organization can have an impact on large amounts of revenue. PR people are not sincere, or they would be out of a job. They are clever at being “sometimes” sincere so that their message appears to be believable. But their main intent is anything but sincere.

80. Rear View Mirror - August 14, 2008

By the way… Corporations do have blogs. And people get on the blogs and criticize those corporations. And people within the corporations get on the blog to present the corporate point of view. They do not want to lose sales. Nothing new.

81. Elena - August 14, 2008

RVM.

Completely agree with you. Can’t you sense that down there in the land of nowhere they think it is real? After thirty five years of brainwashing themselves, how could they not see it like that? They would go mad if they did in a very destructive way and the blog basically helps them begin to simply begin breaking the ice. It is good to have him here. This is not Fat Boy. It’s a bigger fish and he’s getting some fresh air that will help him even if I hate him tomorrow when he says some other stupid thing.

82. Opus 111 - August 14, 2008

By the way Elena, Bruce was not suggesting to silence the ‘heart failure’ of the blogs; he was saying that it is a waste of time to try to engage him/them into arguments, which I tend to agree with, notwithstanding my repeated questions to the Cardiac Kid. Just for the record.

It is fine for you to love them, insult them, praise them, hate them, argue with them, defend them to your heart’s content.

83. Reality Check - August 14, 2008

Elena:

“Probably 99 percent of the people I know are just kids playing to be adults but pretending they are adults trying to be mature when ideally we’d be mature people working with the same joy and interest that children play. I miss that time when we’d go up to other children and we’d soon be playing something fun without too many questions. During the game we’d get to know each other.”

This is true to the point that it produces a state of higher consciousness when it is seen directly in life. I received a phone call from an old girlfriend just recently quite out of the blue, she explained she was nearby on family business and wanted to see me because she had been carrying a torch for me all these years. She wanted to meet with me and get it out of her system. She is now married for nearly two decades and has a teenage son. I met with her and we had a nice time laughing and talking, when she walked me out to my car I looked at her standing in the moonlight and suddenly she was a young girl again shining through a 50-some-odd year old emotionally centered over-fed body. After all these years, according to her more or less compromising with life out of necessity, the wild spirit of a young twenty-something was still there and able to radiate beyond the surface of aging flesh.

84. Rear View Mirror - August 14, 2008

Elena 79,
Yes, I can. Probably both are true. And calling it “the land of nowhere” is perfect… beautifully expressed. RB once referred to the famous Dante words, “Abandon hope all ye who enter here.”

He used to say the sign would be different for “Apollo.” Hmm. I sense he was actually pretty concerned that we’d someday see just how appropriate those words are… for the gatehouse, for the front door of the Galleria, and for the apollo.org website.

And…

“Give up your hopes, your aspirations, and your conscience, and follow me.”

85. ton - August 15, 2008

ya, you would think and hope that by ignoring the likes of a dc, “it” would fade away… on the other-hand, “it” might just invent a second and third persona to carry on “debating” with… afterall, crazier things are afoot in the followship. some well-intentioned folks here feel compelled to spend time and energy in going ’round and ’round with this puppet… but to what end? what purpose is served? dc has demonstrated over and again a very restricted, narrow point of view based (at best) on contrived and convoluted sorts of “rationale” — some things just don’t change, even with the best intentions.

wishing you all well… and a “shout-out” to RVM.

86. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

73 Rear View Mirror (to 70)

‘Schizoid’, as slang for schizophrenia, a severe mental illness, like bi-polar, often is accompanied by delusions of grandeur. Thinking oneself to be omniscient/omnipotent – and then experiencing the fear that others are talking about you, plotting against you or planning your demise, range from anxiety (the level that most bi-polar patients ‘peak out at’) to downright dread of one’s ability to exist without absolute protection from the mental health authorities – severe paranoia. Whereas people with mood-disorders tend to be more versatile and socially interactive in their lives outside with those of ‘normal people’ (I have to leave this up to individual questioning as to the description) schizophrenics are further ‘troubled by voices’ that cannot be traced to social interaction and, so far, psychiatrists have been unable to discover actual, rational reasons as to the sources of these voices. The voices can be things like experiencing talking to famous people – one ‘schizoid’ I have encountered at close hand continues to talk to the Israeli Secret Service and before that episode was in ‘direct contact’ with Vladimir Putin and Jacques Chirac. He is extremely unsociable, and can only seem to ‘live his life’ in a loop between staying at his VERY aged parents house (he is 56 years of age) and messing up his regime of medication and being admitted on a long-term, high security-section in a psychiatric ward. I have also known that some schizophrenics hear ‘voices in their head or in the aether’ (they describe it like on radio waves) that tell them to kill people, many actually murdering family members and friends or famous people. As a bi-polar sufferer, I can say that the only sensory anomolies I have experienced in hypo-manic states are diconcerting changes in accents from those I come across when I am in those states and, only once, I saw a plastic version of a drinks can, which looked like it could only possibly be fabricated in metal. And the question you may be DYING TO POSE to me – “Do you get messages from Higher Forces”. Answer – I do not hear Angelic Voices talking to me but am in places at more and more linked-up intervals, where I can interpret Unusually Certain Messages (directed at my strongest sense – vision). Maybe you have not reached that stage. Maybe you are not what you could be. Rodney Collin stated in ‘ToCH’ – “If we were to receive a message from C influence, we would probably dismiss it as ‘something wrong’ with the TV set!”…..Nigel

P.S. The neutrally descriptive tone of this post was meant to feed or fuel the muscularity of analytical thinking and differs a little from my, sometimes, posts of acerbic Welsh wit.n.

87. Daily Cardiac - August 15, 2008

Traveler – 42-316:

You asked some compelling and important questions which is part of the reason it took some time to answer.

I’ve tried my best to get to the core of the matter. Every answer may not be in chronological order and each question may not be addressed separately, but hopefully all your points were touched on. The questions were complex and layered so the responses may reflect that.

We may not be anymore in agreement afterwards, but perhaps we can put ourselves in the other’s shoes for a brief time.

Here goes.

Traveler: “If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you are using “allegedly” merely because you are trying to say that it does not matter to you whether those stories ( Sex with members) are true or not, because the value of the FOF for you is elsewhere, and even if those stories are true, you are still receiving many spiritual benefits from your membership.”

That is partially true; a big part. The other part is that the stories are alleged, and I wanted to keep that fact in the forefront. They cannot be proven in this arena so why not qualify our dialog with that in mind. It’s tempting to think that all these people can’t be lying, but remember that all these individuals have a stake in the matter and many have put so much effort into exposing the FoF as a fraud that they connect their own vindication with doing just that. As far as a conspiracy; I don’t think people are in collusion, or plotting together, but their common aims and motivations will produce similar responses, and it’s clear that at times they feed off of each other.

Traveler: “- When you hear people say that they have felt used or manipulated or treated as objects by Robert, do you ever feel the slightest bit uncomfortable?
– If you do ever feel uncomfortable, do you think there’s anything that would relieve the discomfort?
– If you don’t feel uncomfortable, what do you feel when you hear many people state that they have been manipulated or abused by Robert?
– Do you remember when you first found out that Robert was having sex with students? How long were you in the school? How did you find out? What did you think at the time?
– Did you as an older student ever feel ill-at-ease speaking to new or prospective students about Robert’s lifestyle? Did you ever speak to them in a way that attempted to ameliorate the impact of the rumors about Robert, did you ever censor yourself or withhold parts of information because you thought it would be bad for new students to hear? If yes, were you trying to prevent something?
– Were you ever in a situation where you could have said something that would reveal you were a member of the Fellowship of Friends, but you chose not to reveal that? If yes, what were you feeling?”

I’ll try to answer these as one block and where the answer is an obvious yes or no, my answers to most would be No. When meeting with non-members, as a rule, I try not to introduce the fact I am in a spiritual school as few people know what to do with the information.
I was in the school about 2 years when I found out Robert was gay. I found out from a good friend. I don’t think it had much of an effect on me as by that time I had already verified he was a real teacher and the FoF a school.

As far as the other questions that require a more specific answer I would say – those scenarios don’t raise much concern for me as they are directly tied in to other understandings that make their meaning fairly clear to me. I will elaborate a little later.

Traveler: “So are you saying that you know Robert has sex with many male students, and that all the ones you have seen and had interactions with inside the Fellowship, seemed happy and content?”

I’m not around when Robert is having sex, so I can’t speak definitively. However, it’s relatively easy to know which few people are close to him at any given time. Those individuals seem pretty stable and well adjusted to me.

Traveler: “Are you saying that those of Robert’s sex partners who have left the FOF, left only because they were spiritually discontented and not growing, and only later came up with an “explanation” that they left “because” they were being sexually manipulated by Robert?”

Basically this is what I believe; except I think the “explanation” as you call it, comes before they actually leave, not later. And being “discontented and not growing” is an effect, not a cause. The cause of discontent would be not wanting to make the effort necessary to “grow.’

Also, “manipulated” is a strong word. The FoF is designed to “open people’s eyes” which would encourage someone to not be manipulated, if anything – to be “true to themselves.”

Traveler said: “Would you consider how the two might theoretically be related? Do you think it’s possible that in the history of the FOF, there were in fact some men who said yes to Robert not happily, but because they felt pressured to do so? Can you imagine how being in a sexual relationship that is not quite voluntary and consensual, could exist simultaneously with stunted spirituality? In your experience, do you think that it’s possible that some people just are not able to leave unpleasant relationships for a long time because they consider themselves unworthy, dependent, inferior, weak? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this.”

I can’t say what mistakes Robert may or may not have made 38 or even 30 years ago as I was not around then. He has often said he made mistakes as a young teacher. I’m sure he has grown from them.

The whole point in mistakes for someone on a spiritual path is to learn from them and to grow. No one who has ever inhabited this planet has gotten off mistake free.

Basically, in my time in the FoF, I have not known Robert to force anyone to have sex with him. Pressure is a relative thing. If I ask someone who has other plans to wash dishes at the Galleria I am “pressuring” them in the sense that I’m forcing them to make a decision or choice. If I ask a friend to join me for lunch I am pressuring them to a degree; in certain situations people may put undue pressure on themselves or they may not.

I’ll say this much with as much certainty as a person can reasonably claim: For every man Robert has asked to have sex with him and who may have felt “put out” or “pressured” there is at least one other man who would have given anything to be asked by Robert but he did not even consider asking them. And some of those individuals left the FoF because they were not asked to have sex.

Traveler: “Can you imagine how being in a sexual relationship that is not quite voluntary and consensual, could exist simultaneously with stunted spirituality?”

This is an important point; a stunted spirituality, as my experience tells me, has little to do with difficult externals or unfavorable circumstances or pressure. In fact it’s often just the opposite; where adversity strengthens spirituality. A stunted spirituality has more to do with individual effort or lack of effort. If we make the correct spiritual efforts we will grow in spirit.

One other point of note: People can say no. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated. Like the old drug commercials “Just Say No.” Some people are angry at themselves today because they could not muster the courage to say no and they then transfer that self anger into blame of the asker.

There are many ways to say no to the kind of sex Robert asks for. Robert’s role in sex is well documented. He plays the female part with another male. The other male is required to penetrate Robert which necessitates an erect penis. Generally speaking an erect penis is achieved by being aroused sexually. Arousal usually indicates a desire or ability to engage in sex.

If I were a homosexual male being penetrated sexually by another male I would not have cause to believe the partner was being traumatized as the act of penetration would strongly suggest otherwise. I would be more inclined to believe the partner was being, at least to some degree, stimulated sexually.

I’m a heterosexual male with a normal sex drive. There have been a few instances in my life when a female who was attracted to me wanted sex and I was not equally attracted to her. In most of those cases I could not achieve an erection even though a part of me wanted to go through with it. (I should mention it happened much more that I was the one attracted and the female not so much and I never got the chance.)

I’ve also been in situations where there was some other apprehension (pressure) involved and even though I was attracted to someone and the opportunity was there I could not achieve an erection.

I would think that if a male really felt violated, repulsed or put out by the act he would not be able to achieve an erection and that would have settled that. That would have been a loud and clear NO!

This is something to seriously consider when people use the extreme language that they were “raped” by Robert or that the FoF is a “rape factory.”

Fellatio also falls under this same set of conditions.

What about orgasms? Are people manipulated or coerced into having them?

It is also of note to mention that no one has ever lost any normal privileges by saying no to Robert’s requests for sex. No one has been sent from the school, sent to a faraway center, humiliated, ostracized by other students, prevented from attending meetings or events, or have been restricted in any other way for saying no.

Traveler: “There is a fundamental difference between religious beliefs and objectively verifiable statements, and they just do not mix and match. That’s where the whole “have you verified Influence C” debate enters the endless spin cycle. And from what I’ve observed within the Fellowship, there is very little awareness among members that an established distinction exists between what I will call religious thinking on the one hand and the scientific way of thinking on the other.”

When you say “very little awareness among members” in the above sentence -keep in mind that the members you speak of are in all likelihood now ex members, as 85 or so of every 100 people to join have left. I don’t think people who have not left and for all intents and purposes will not ever leave have a problem in this area. Although I would not call it “the scientific way”, but prefer your other term, “objectively verifiable.”

Traveler said: “What I call religious is: a pronouncement of truth is made by an authority. Then people try to find ways to support that truth. This typically takes the form of social influence, more and more people declaring that something is true and that they sincerely and deeply believe it. (The recent description by someone of Linda K asking people to raise hands if they have verified Influence C comes to mind.) The idea it is in turn believed by more people and voila, a truth is born. Not an uncommon way of thinking even in this day and age. The point being, religious beliefs are inherently not testable and not verifiable, and therefore the terms “true” and “false” are actually completely irrelevant with regard to matters of belief. They do not even enter the picture. Nobody has yet been able to disprove the existence of Creator God, because it is inherently not possible to disprove God (or Gods, or Influence C), and it is equally impossible to prove God. “Daily Cardiac believes in Influence C.” That’s a verifiable hypothesis, and upon observation it would probably be validated with a high degree of likelihood. “44 invisible gods are directing the fate of Fellowship of Friends through communicating with Robert Burton”. There is no conceivable method for objectively proving or disproving such a statement. It is a matter of faith. If you are interested in more of this, try googling “invisible pink unicorn.”

What you say in this section I am in agreement with until the words “it is a matter of faith” in regard to something like verifying Influence C. If one verifies Influence C the rest of it (there are 44 spirits working with the school) is really not that important to me. It is definitely possible to verify Influence C without the 44 part.

Verifying spiritual truths or principles is not a question of faith.
Faith is part of the process of verification, but not what verification is based on. Verification is based on truth; on knowing or recognizing truth when one encounters it. Verification starts with faith but it does not end with faith; it ends with knowing.

Humans are driven by faith; we could not get away from faith in our lives if we wanted to. If we meet someone, fall in love and plan to marry them the marriage is based on faith. We don’t know if it is going to succeed. We enter into it having faith it will succeed. If we get a new job it’s the same thing; we don’t know if it’s right for us but if it feels right we proceed on faith. It’s the same with joining a spiritual school or believing a teacher; faith is needed at first.

And the main ingredient of faith is an open mind. One has to assume something “may” work in order for it to work. I’m not talking about blind faith, but the kind of faith needed to verify something; an open and trusting mind. If someone says “I don’t really believe in Influence C, but I will keep an eye out for them just in case,” it’s an attitude that will never produce complete results or get someone past their present relationship to it because those people haven’t paid the “price of admission” to verify something.

The truth (spiritual truth) is reserved for those who are looking for it and willing to pay for it. Why should the truth come easily or at bargain basement prices? One can purchase falsehood for those prices, or get it for free, but truth is very expensive.

It’s the same for material truths; if I want to know if Toyota is a better car than Honda I have to pay a price to find out. I may pay in time, energy, money or all three but I pay. Or I could just stop someone on the street and ask their opinion and take that for truth.

Think about it – why would we be given the ability to verify small things; like Elena recently said she verified jogging is good for her, but not be able to verify the bigger spiritual ideas; the existence of Influence C, Influence C is working with me to help me awaken, or working through someone, or that someone is or is not conscious?

To me it’s not conceivable or possible that God, the gods, Influence C, Allah, would not equip us to verify the most important spiritual ideas regarding our own evolution. If that were the case then God would be a sociopath.

We can verify these things, only the process is completely personal and singular. I cannot prove any of my spiritual verifications to anyone else but I can most certainly prove them to myself. This doesn’t mean people don’t lie to or delude themselves about these verifications. In the meeting situation with Linda, mentioned by Ames, people’s lower selves would be under FD to raise their hands and some would succumb to the urge just to be included in the “correct” category, especially if no one could challenge their claim.

The last part of your post 42-316 was long and rather eloquently written dealing with the process of verification.
I don’t think I can do this section justice point for point so I will just say a little of my experiences with this process.

Verification of spiritual truths is the most difficult to explain because the essence of spirit is devoid of words. Spirit has no tongue, it has no brain. It is a state. But it is a state in which we can be shown many truths. How do spirits communicate with us, people with coarse earthly bodies? They do it through the most refined receptors we have, our higher mind, or centers. (a loaded word for many readers).

Work on oneself is first and foremost a process of subtraction. Higher Faculties are there all along but we have not for most of our existence bothered to use them. We don’t know how to use them. For some strange reason we have to be instructed how to use them.

We are more interested in earthly pursuits. When a person puts the spirit first he or she is given the opportunity to make good on that “declaration.” He or she is offered entry into the world of spirit, and is shown what the price to have it will be over time. The price is always the same; give up whatever stands in the way of spiritual pursuits. For me this means giving up what we are identified with on the earthly level, our mechanical habits, desires, fears, attitudes, repulsions, attractions.

Give up the path of least resistance, the door of ease, as that is the door of falsehood. And by “giving up” I mean give up our clinging; often we are not asked to give up the thing itself, but we must always be ready and willing to give it up.

We always pay for higher truths by giving up lower truths. By that I mean giving up lower truths is the currency we need to pay for higher truths. There is no other way. One can read or recite brilliant texts until hell freezes over without producing any real results.

We change by making sacrifices. Often by doing what the lower self does not want us to do. Obviously if one does not believe one has a lower self these words will be worthless, or worse; they will produce only anger and frustration.

Traveler said: “You ask me “have you tried to verify it” – that is a very interesting question in my opinion. Have you ever considered it more deeply? What does trying to verify mean in the Fellowship? It means trying and trying until you can say with some conviction that it is true, doesn’t it? Wouldn’t the process of verification also imply that it is possible to verify that a central tenet of the Fellowship is NOT true? If you value objectivity, you might want to ask yourself. Have you met anyone in your tenure in the FOF who had ever verified that the play was NOT written? It was impossible, wasn’t it? You had either verified that it was true, or were still in the process of verifying that it was true. You really didn’t have a choice.”

You are right, the choices are limited. The “play is written” is a principle of the school. The “play is not written” is a principle many others live by. I happened to have verified that the play is written. If someone says they have verified the play is not written it does not alter my verification, my reality.

The nature of verification, as I said, is personal. It cannot be transferred from one person to another like frequent flyer miles. No one can implant verification into someone else. And it’s common for someone who has not verified a truth to be skeptical of someone who says they have verified the same truth.

Traveler: “Remember above when I wrote about belief and how something becomes true not because of actual verification, but just because more and more people believe it?
So I have a very fundamental question for you: how do you know what to trust?”

In the bible it says: Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto thee.

For me this implies we are given the ability to verify a spiritual truth. If we are not given this power we are all wasting our time. But for me it would be incomprehensible to conceive of not being given this ability.

The only thing left is “How do we verify a spiritual truth?”
My experience is we do it by working steadily with esoteric principles. (the ones of the FoF worked fine for me) That is why I take it as a school of spiritual development. This is all I can say to anyone who asks “How have you verified this or that?” I merely removed the things stopping me from verifying them, i.e. imagination, identification, judgment, blame. And by transforming friction or suffering, both real and imagined. This sets the stage, gets the house ready for verifying something. Then it comes when it comes, and not always when we think it should come.

This post is getting long but there is one more area to mention that gets at the core of many people’s misunderstanding of or disconnect with RB/FoF, his behavior, his methods.

Men are under different kinds of laws; some they are aware of some others they may be oblivious to. Being oblivious to a law does not remove one from its domain.

I have noticed three kinds of laws, three levels men are under. 1) The laws of countries, states, or municipalities. 2) Religious or moral based laws, and 3) Esoteric (or spiritual) laws.

Sometimes these laws overlap and compliment each other and other times they cancel each other out. The first kind is intended to protect the life, limb and property of men. They are very straight forward and concise; if you steal a man’s property you will be punished.

The second kind is religious in nature and doesn’t always overlap the first kind of law. If someone commits adultery he or she may be judged or chastised in a religious or moral arena but not by a government or state.

About 20 years ago a man named Gary Hart was in the fast lane to the White House and presidency of the U S until he was discovered to have gone boating with a couple of bikini clad young women. He was a happily married family man. He did not commit a civil crime but was judged and found guilty of a moral crime and he paid a very high price.

Morality is fickle; other presidents of the U S have done far worse than he did, morally speaking, but he had the misfortune of doing it in a post Watergate environment.

Then there are purely esoteric, or spiritual laws. These are the hardest to uncover, to grasp. Sometimes these laws overlap the other two, but other times they obliterate and contradict the other kinds.

One example of this is when a spiritual test or trial will necessitate that someone overrides a moral law for the sake of their own spiritual development, or the spiritual development of others. This was the case when Robert skipped his mother’s funeral at the last moment when he received a shock from Influence C. This is also behind Robert’s relationships with some members as I see it.

That’s why it’s so hard for some to accept the principle “the play is written” as it would seem to absolve Robert from any wrongdoing. It’s hard to judge the Deities; there would not seem to be any future in that endeavor. And if we cannot judge them to whom do we turn?

We turn inward. We transform what has been passed our way. And then we are free. We are not overly concerned with this body, this fleeting existence because we are working for a higher, eternal existence.

We abide with the courts of men in matters of civil laws, but we abide by the world of spirits in spiritual matters. How does one prove one is obeying a higher will to someone who has not yet verified that world?

Many ex-students judge Robert for breaking moral laws when he is, in those moments, obeying higher laws. As I understand things Robert’s ways are intricately tied in to Influence C’s plans.

His actions have confused many members who were not able to experience or see those higher plans. He has forced many people to let go of their moral identifications in order to grasp higher laws.

Some who could not let go found it necessary to leave.

88. sharon - August 15, 2008

DC – I don’t have time to read your whole treatise, have an appt. to get to – but I am struck by:

“I’ll say this much with as much certainty as a person can reasonably claim: For every man Robert has asked to have sex with him and who may have felt “put out” or “pressured” there is at least one other man who would have given anything to be asked by Robert but he did not even consider asking them. And some of those individuals left the FoF because they were not asked to have sex.”

Don’t you find it odd that RB never seems to want sex with those who actually want it? That perhaps this is an indication of a non-loving basis for sexual experience, e.g. power or dominance?

re erection equalling consent, you need to read some great published material posted by PG on the GF site – I’ll copy some here later for you, you might find it mind opening, if such is possible.

89. veronicapoe - August 15, 2008

Daily Cardiac wrote:

The FoF is designed to “open people’s eyes” which would encourage someone to not be manipulated, if anything – to be “true to themselves.”

It is hard to express how colossal a falsehood this is. I’m not sure yet whether it is a lie or a delusion — it makes a difference to me — but false it is, of that I am certain. The FoF is designed for one thing only: to provide narcissistic supply to robot button. It is a “narcissistic supply factory” (a characterization which is not meant to supplant, but rather to complement, that coined by whalerider).

90. Elena - August 15, 2008

There we go again, the same tapes justifying the unjustifiable:
Division of higher and lower
Robert too divine to understand
The same formatory apparatus reasoning in circles.

You sound so much like my husband except he wouldn’t be so stupid to let himself be seen this much and cited in court for the oblivions unless he’s totally collapsing too. Bravo!

Please do us the favor to continue trying to prove your points to yourself. It is a very good exercise to look at it in detail.

91. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

Daily Cardiac

Formatory and ‘facade-like’ truths(?) do not stand up in the face of others’ personal accounts of, rather than ‘doing the general ‘work”, finding stimulating and Worthy To their Total Being paths to their Own Reality (which is is no way less connected to the Universal Truths offered by Beings of more moral containment than REB)..Nigel.

92. Rear View Mirror - August 15, 2008

Cardiac 85… 4,187 words. Not one of them is the word conscience.

In addition to that, this is one of the strangest posts on the blog … absolutely and completely weird. Remember DC… Your words are on the internet for all to read, and for all to see across the world. It would be a pathetic intro to Robert Burton and the FOF.

Makes me wonder if Elena is not completely correct — that you completely believe everything you are saying, because it certainly doesn’t serve Burton’s agenda.

That you actually believe your comments… That to me is frightening.

93. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

85 Daily Cardiac

And REB gets ‘bucket-loads’ of Viagra, so ever male part (higher now, from chemical stimulus) can orgy-cater!….See – two lines. Nigel.

94. Rear View Mirror - August 15, 2008
95. ton - August 15, 2008

“Messiah complex is a state in which the individual believes themselves to be, or destined to become, the saviour of the particular field, a group, an event, a time period, or in an extreme scenario, the world. This could also be the state in which a group views an individual as a messiah, such as followers of a cult leader. The cult leader doesn’t have to claim to be a messiah, but if he is treated as such by his followers, it can also be classified as such.

People with a messiah complex tend to see themselves as saviors to a specific group of people or a specific field, making claims of their own glory, or claiming a self-awareness of their own gift and how that gift can effect a group of people or a field of life. Messiah Complex may also refer to a person who has formed a habit of “creating” crisis in a given culture, only to later “rescue” or “save” the poor helpless soul upon whom the crisis has been perpetrated. In the most extreme cases, people with a messiah complex may see themselves as spiritual/religious messiahs with transcendent powers who are destined to save the world.

A God complex is a psychological state of mind in which a person believes that they have supernatural powers or god-like abilities. The person generally believes they are above the rules of society and should be given special consideration. There are few academic works specifically addressing god complexes, although a great deal can be found about narcissism.

According to the book All Mighty: A Study of the God Complex in Western Man, by Horst Richter (ISBN 0-89793-028-2), authoritarian compulsions are related to the rebellious stage of childhood development. Richter argues that the arrested development of such compulsions leads to denial of suffering, self-doubt, and death, and an expectation of servility for women, minorities, and lower class.

narcissism — Dandyism

A dandy is a man who places particular importance upon physical appearance, refined language, and the cultivation of leisurely hobbies. Some dandies, especially in Britain in the late 18th and 19th century, strove to affect aristocratic values even though many came from common backgrounds. Thus, a dandy could be considered a kind of snob.

The Dandical Body from Sartor Resartus by Thomas Carlyle:
“A Dandy is a clothes-wearing Man, a Man whose trade, office and existence consists in the wearing of Clothes. Every faculty of his soul, spirit, purse, and person is heroically consecrated to this one object, the wearing of Clothes wisely and well: so that the others dress to live, he lives to dress…And now, for all this perennial Martyrdom, and Poesy, and even Prophecy, what is it that the Dandy asks in return? Solely, we may say, that you would recognise his existence; would admit him to be a living object; or even failing this, a visual object, or thing that will reflect rays of light…”

Lack of empathy is a hallmark of narcissistic disorders, and sufferers find it extremely difficult to understand others’ (and their own) emotional states and impact. This makes maintaining close or intimate relationships significantly harder. They may find it difficult to perceive or admit this, or may interpret it as a virtue. It is also worth noting that the individual expressions of grandiosity or arrogance vary with the person’s value system. A person will generally attempt to display superiority as they define it.”

wiki

96. Rear View Mirror - August 15, 2008

About 92 above. The link takes you to something ugly. Our “teacher” was the participant and the organizer — imagine that. And maybe worse than what’s described.

Just one symptom. But I think it’s important that we occasionally bring the discussion back there, and really ponder for a moment just how ugly it all is. That’s our “real school.” That’s our teacher. That’s what we paid for. That’s what we were given. Marketed as “awakening” and a connection to something “higher.”

97. whalerider - August 15, 2008

Nigel:

From wikipedia:

“Schizoid personality disorder (SPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a lack of interest in social relationships, a tendency towards a solitary lifestyle, secretiveness, and emotional coldness.[1] SPD is reasonably rare compared with other personality disorders. Its prevalence is estimated at less than 1% of the general population.”

What you are describing is indeed schizophrenia, a severe thought disorder. SPD is different. Those afflicted usually live alone out in the boonies, eat squirrel meat, and bathe in lakes.

98. My4bits - August 15, 2008

Today’s topic, in my “chain of 30 links” de-programming ritual, is “the higher,” and includes the concepts of “higher forces” or “influence C.”

(This post is a bit long, but I hope to entertain…)

Being a member of the Fellowship for as long as I was, it would probably have been assumed by most that I, too, had “verified great influence C.” When asked, I sometimes would answer “yes” and sometimes “no,” depending on who I thought I was speaking to. That is, where I perceived they were in the hierarchy.

Now, less cautious than then, and less likely to dissemble, I state that over a period of 29 years of “working” with the idea, I never was able to “verify influence C.” Was I just a slow learner? I don’t think so.

It is also true that I did not openly reject the idea of influence C (higher forces, angels, disembodied spirits, etc.). Instead, like a good Fourth Way student, I “just recorded it” in my mnemonic archive of things which, at my (low) level of being, I was not yet able to verify. In this way, I could accept the possibility of their existence as an operating premise until I was able to complete the verification process. In other words I could “fit in” and “get with the program.”

Having now been free of the Fellowship for almost one year, I hold that there is ‘the higher’, but that this is a personal belief based on faith. I’m trying to keep things as simple as I can these days while I sort things out.

When I think back on those decades of “Robert Burton and the 44 Conscious Beings” I see very clearly how, by introducing the concept of “the 44” to the Fourth Way system, RB added an ingenious and effective new layer of control to the authoritarian power structure he was constructing, day by day.

Just think of it: A pantheon of 44 disembodied spirits (astral bodies) working directly with the school, through RB, and directly or indirectly with students, to ensure the success of the Ark, and to enable all dues-paying members to achieve their evolutionary aim.

As I recall, whether students were worked with directly or indirectly by “higher forces” depended on which lifetime they were on, ad divined by RB: Someone like Girard, who was said to be on his 9th lifetime, would be assigned a personal angel. Others in their 8th, 7th, 6th, etc. lifetime would be granted an occasional visit, also in accordance to their importance in the overall scheme of things. (And a scheme it was.)

So, what were the divine qualities of these beings, aside from the fact that this angelic faculty included some of the greatest spiritual figures, artists, and statesmen of the last 2,000 years, as related to us by their earthly representative, Robert Earl Burton?

— They are in a “permanent state of external consideration.” In other words they are “conscious” and therefore in a permanent state of unconditional love — unless, that is, you turn your back on them.

— They are omnipresent, or as far as it goes that way for an angel that is still attending some level of “higher school” in Celestial City. When RB was around there were always a few angels in the room, smiling at you, looking over your shoulder, listening to the angles and nodding in affirmation. This in addition to RB’s ever-present spirit guide, Leonardo da Vinci. When you, a mere student, are alone, who knows? But seeing an occasional “44” pop up in your environment suggested to you that they were indeed around, keeping an eye on you, and this made you feel chosen and cared-for.

— They “work tirelessly, 24 hours a day, and expect no payment.” Not even one red cent! An inspiration, indeed, to those working on a pitiful salary at Apollo.

— They have a “magic wand in one hand, and a club in the other.” Have you been naughty or nice, today? And if, gods forbid, you have been naughty, you will come to understand why “black and blue” are influence C’s favorite colors…

— They give us such nice things! J.S. Bach arranged the purchase of our Steinway pianos, Rembrandt helped us purchase this or that painting, Lao Tsu or Buddha is out there helping us build our Ming furniture collection… And they have such nice, gold-alchemy taste, to boot!

— They are “super servants” to the Absolute, as we must also be “super servants” to Robert Burton who, by the way, is “one of us, and one of them.”

I could go on, but I’m sure that some readers are already nauseous.

How can it not be blazingly obvious? These qualities are the same, ideal qualities that we, as infants, sought in our parents, and that we then projected onto Robert Burton and his celestial band of cronies:

— they love us unconditionally (if we behave),

— they are always there for us (if we are important and if we behave),

— they are completely altruistic, and willing to work their celestial butts of for us, expecting nothing in return (if, that is, we work just as hard for them and Robert Burton),

— they are powerful and yet gentle; magical, and even humorous (if, that is, we behave ourselves; otherwise, we’ll most certainly get whacked with that big stick: that is, be involved in an automobile accident, lose a loved one, be diagnosed with cancer, etc.), and

— they generously provide for us, materially and in great abundance (as long as you agree with RB’s direction, and continue to make your teaching payments).

Nowadays, “the 44” have been put on the back burner, so to speak. I know of several way-old students who deeply mourned their passing into the dustbin of FoF history. (By they way, they also all suffered from chronic depression.) Oh, our favorite angels are still around though, somewhere, and RB says that we could not do without them…

To anyone still a member of The Fellowship of Friends, or if you are someone who just thinks that there’s an angel floating above you right now, I say to you — as a fairly intelligent person who used to think that Homer (the blind philosopher and author of The Iliad and The Odyssey) is his personal angel-guide, but who was never able to verify it — that if you truly value your soul and its evolution, it is time for you to “grow up.”

99. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

85. Daily Cardiac

The guy on the subway, whipping it out and beating it in front of everyone. It’s fortunate that there’s no sense of shame in the FOF. For me, the more words that are needed, the less it worthwhile listening to.
In my imaginary better world, if a “teacher” can’t explain it to a child in a few sentences, they’re full of shit. Anything beyond that is just “look at me, look at me, I’m almost awake, give me your money, your time and your life, and oh yeah, let me fuck you, or your spouse, because that way you’ll accelerate your evolution”.

100. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

85. Daily Cardiac

And the justification for the sexual abuse (erections etc.), you should be locked up in the cell next to RB’s, so Bubba the Booty Bandit can visit you, but NOT RB. That would be justice on our level.

101. veronicapoe - August 15, 2008

“Justice” is that robot button, no matter what he does or who he does, can’t get no satisfaction.

102. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

98. brucelevy

Then you could let us know if you got an erection. You covered most of those bases in your knowledgeable post.

103. veronicapoe - August 15, 2008

Socrates: Tell me now first whether a man who has an itch and scratches it and can scratch to his heart’s content, scratching his whole life long, can also live happily.

Callicles: What nonsense, Socrates. You’re a regular crowd pleaser.

Socrates: That’s just how I shocked Polus and Gorgias and made them be ashamed. You certainly won’t be shocked, however, or be ashamed, for you’re a brave man. Just answer me, please.

Callicles: I say that even the man who scratches would have a pleasant life.

Socrates: And if a pleasant one, a happy one, too?

Callicles: Yes indeed.

Socrates: What if he scratches only his head — or what am I to ask you further? See what you’ll answer if somebody asked you one after the other every question that comes next. And isn’t the climax of this sort of thing, the life of catamites, a frightfully shameful and miserable one? Or will you have the nerve to say that they are happy as long as they have what they need to their hearts’ content?

Callicles: Aren’t you ashamed, Socrates, to bring our discussion to such matters? (Gorgias, 494c-e)

104. My4bits - August 15, 2008

brucelevy, post 97:

RB’s message is apparent to his dear children, and be sure he wishes to keep them in that relationship — children.

When I left the St. Petersburg center after an extended visit, I asked the co-director why no one asked me — an “important” older student — any questions. He replied, “Now, the system is so simple, even a child can understand it. We’ve already heard what you have to say.”

I think that this is part of the problem: RB’s teaching is designed specifically for vulnerable “children.”

I guess this makes him a spiritual pedophile.

105. veronicapoe - August 15, 2008
106. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

85. Daily Cardiac

It nauseates me to even respond, but I will anyway.

From: Rape Victims Help-Recovery for Survivors

“A group of emotional responses to rape can be so harmful, they deserve their own paragraph. It starts immediately, usually during the assault and can be with you for years if not resolved. These emotions usually revolve around guilt, but include anger, powerlessness and fear, and are very unexpected and shocking to rape victims. It’s common among both male and female rape victims, to feel guilty because the attack resulted in their body responding literally against their will. Their mind associates this with “pleasure” they weren’t supposed to have, so they feel guilty, along with all the other emotions. If this is one of the feelings you’ve had, understand that orgasm is a bodily response to physical stimulus…it doesn’t mean you wanted or enjoyed what was happening. Rape renders you powerless even over your own body. This is one of the most harmful things about sexual assault, because it causes you to despise yourself and deny yourself a normal, healthy and happy sex-life as you were designed to have.”

107. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

Myths and Facts about Male Survivors

“Myth #3: If a boy/man experiences sexual
arousal or orgasm from abuse, this means he
was a willing participant or enjoyed it.
Fact: Sexual arousal or orgasmic response does
not mean that positive emotions or consent
were involved. It simply means that the body
reacted. The act of abuse assumes or disregards
a victim’s feelings. A male can have an
erection or an orgasm even when he is afraid.”

108. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

“According to Groth, some assailants may try to get their victim to ejaculate because for the rapist, it symbolizes their complete sexual control over their victim’s body. Since ejaculation is not always within conscious control but rather an involuntary physiological reaction, rapists frequently succeed at getting their male victims to ejaculate. As Groth and Burgess have found in their research, this aspect of the attack is extremely stressful and confusing to the victim. In misidentifying ejaculation with orgasm, the victim may be bewildered by his physiological response during the sexual assault and, therefore, may be discouraged from reporting the assault for fear his sexuality may become suspect (Groth & Burgess, 1980).”

Rot in hell MF.

109. whalerider - August 15, 2008

cardiac arrest:

“The nature of verification, as I said, is personal. It cannot be transferred from one person to another like frequent flyer miles. No one can implant verification into someone else.”

You say verification, but in fact what you mean is cult indoctrination. Indoctrination actually can be transferred to others, just like frequent flyer miles…implanted is even closer to the truth.

Language is a virus. It can infect your mind on the subtlest level.

>>>>>><<<<<<

OK, you asked for it, now to all the business about erections. (This should get your heart rate up.)

Firstly, I’d like to remind you that alcohol is a common remedy for anxiety, a vascular dalator (as in increased blood flow to guess where), and at the same time loosens one’s inhibitions. Every time I had sex with Robert, alcohol was involved. Ever wake in the next morning with someone lying next to you whom you wouldn’t have normally touched with a ten foot pole? If not, you never went to college.

Secondly, have you ever used viagra? It is designed to give you an erection whether you want one or not. The slighest stimulation and you pop a bonner. But as they say, it’s a bit like Disneyland. A forty minute wait for a two minute ride.

Thirdly, in order to have anal sex, you need lube. Otherwise it hurts. Lubrication makes the penis more sensitive. Now who do you think puts the lube on? Not me! (Here’s a tip, so to speak, if you have to use condoms, try putting a little lube in the end it first, then put it on. Cha cha cha. Sometimes wifey use to pop in a mint altoid before giving me head for a little added fresco stimulation, but that’s a different story.)

Now I don’t know about your penis but mine sometimes has a mind of its own. I wake up in the morning and bingo, it’s erect, I guess it’s so I don’t pee the bed. When I was younger man, I could be driving down the street and jeeze, up it goes, for seemingly no reason at all.

When I had sex with Robert I was 24.

So here’s my experience of how Robert constructed a RAPE FACTORY.

1) You learn on the “way’ that in order to evolve, you need to get close to a guru. So you join the cult and hear that the leader claims he is the second coming of christ. Hmmm…must be the right place, you think to yourself. Why waste time sitting cross-legged and learning sanskrit?

2) It takes years to get close to him. For me, I didn’t actually see hom for a year and a half. In order to be on salary, had to make a “ranch donation” of $1000. This was early 1980, and $1000 was a lot of money to me. You can be damn sure I am going to “pay attention” to what’s going on.

3) You witness these dudes who are close to him get to take time off from WORKING LIKE A DOG 12 HOURS A DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, IN THE HOT FUCKING SUN OR POURING RAIN and travel all over the world. Sounds like a good deal, and nobody seems to be complaining.

4) He invites you to live with him at the academy. Wow, what an honor! You get to be around great art, lots of room, high ceilings, air conditioning at night, free booze, well-stocked kitchen. Not a bad deal. Then he sits you next to him at the dinners. And the little gifts start. A gold watch here. A book of sonnets there. A pair of his cast off PJ’s that were too big for me.

5) IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, after a dinner and few glasses of wine.this ghostly figure in white pajamas wakes you up out of a dead sleep and asks you to go “snuggle” with him. You figure, OK, I must be dreaming. You follow.

6) He escorts you into his bed and you lie on your back. He lies next to you and throws his leg over your groin and waits. He says nothing, he is just lying in wait like a fucking spider. I am thinking to myself, “what the fuck’s gong on here”? After all the wine, soon I have to take a piss, but I can’t move because he’s got me and it’s late. My guard is down. Then it happens. The warmth of his leg, having to pee…bingo, I get an erection. Then he whispers in my ear, ‘When you climax, I will recieve you”. Not, “do you mind if I give you a conscious blow job, dear”? He gives you a post hypnotic suggestion that you are going to orgasm and down he goes. Of course, not without the famous line, “don’t worry, you’re with an angel, now.” And he does the deed. He then pulls up your pajamas and escorts you back to your futon.

7) Soon after starts playing you against others close to him like a trout on a line, but nobody talks about it. Sometimes he wants you around if you do your duty and give him anal sex, and if you avoid him, then he doesn’t take you on any trips. (Me, I had a girlfriend on the side, so sometimes I didn’t make it “home” at night, if you could call it home. And this was before anyone knew anything about AIDS.)

8) You feel your self starting to implode. If this the life you want for yourself? Others are doing it, but you don’t talk about it because of the ‘gossip’ exercise. “Don’t worry, be happy” says one of the 44. Just remember yourself and you will go to heaven. Nothing is as important than being present. Don’t think about the past or the future. Only the present is important. The whole set up makes you sick to your stomach really.

(Notice how I describe that in the second person? That’s becasue all these years I was depersonalized and disassociated from the experience. Now, I sweat when I write about it.)

If he pulled that shit on me now, I’d kick him in the balls.

Robert is a sexual predator who preys on Heterosexual males. The FOF is set up to feed his sexual addiction.

In order to see the truth, grasshopper, you have to give up your illusions.

110. My4bits - August 15, 2008

Whalerider, post 107:

Thanks for sharing your eye-opening experiences, Whalerider. We know it was difficult for you.

Peace, brother.

111. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

107. whalerider

But you left out the “tap my head three times” part of the gig.

112. sharon - August 15, 2008

DCard please read the extract below
from a forum on the GF site, credited to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_rape_research
Male rape research
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

“Men, young men and boys suffer rape-related trauma by rape and sexual assault just as female victims do. In addition, due to male socialization to consider all male-male sexual contact to be shameful, to ‘be tough and take it like a man’ and to eschew victimhood in all its forms, many males who were survivors of male rape choose to suffer in silence rather than risk reporting the crime. These victims consider the shame of disclosure and their likely shunning by peers, as worse than the crime itself; a form of double-bind shame similar to the double-bind blame that male-female rape victims often face. Incest by fathers or incestuous rape of male children by adult men or by older and/or physically larger males in responsible roles is an especially traumatic form of sexual crime against males that has gained widespread national attention in the United States due to the recent Roman Catholic sex abuse cases. Male-male rape often does deep damage to or destroys the survivor’s image of himself as a man which may cause him to feel helpless and alone among other men.
When a male is raped (by a male or female) the involuntary physiological response of erection or ejaculation cannot be taken to imply that the act was welcomed by the victim. A capable assailant, male or female, can induce these involuntary physical responses in the majority of males with force and/or with deception. Likewise, in incest or incestuous male-male rape, ‘voluntary’ initiation, ‘voluntary’ participation, and involuntary enjoyment by the victim, do not imply that the sexual assault is consensual, less loathsome, or less traumatic to the victim. Many people mistake these involuntary physiological effects, falsely, as indications of consent, when in fact the male rape victims have no more control over his involuntary physiological responses than do female rape victims.
Male-on-male rape does not imply homosexuality. This is a common misperception. People often view the male aggressor as a homosexual, and may think of the recipient as having homosexual tendencies too, especially if he shows signs of sexual stimulation during the experience. Research indicates that the most common form of male-male rape is group rape by other males who rape males who are considered less than ‘real’ men or latent homosexuals; therefore it is a mistake to perceive the rapists as homosexuals in these cases too. A male rape victim will often experience involuntary erection when forcibly penetrated by rapists of either gender but that does not mean that he is homosexual or that he enjoys the rape. To falsely label a male rape victim ‘homosexual’ just because his rapist was male can cause the rape victim double-bind shame in cultures where discrimination against homosexuals is rampant.”

113. Daily Cardiac - August 15, 2008

WhaleRider – 107:

I wrote my truth and you answered with yours; what could be more fair than that?

114. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

111. Daily Cardiac

Your truth is a lie.

115. My4bits - August 15, 2008

A fucking lie.

116. You-me-us-they - August 15, 2008
117. Rear View Mirror - August 15, 2008

“I wrote my truth and you answered with yours; what could be more fair than that?”

What would make you think twice about the FOF? What it would need to be? Would a more hideous crime even change your thinking?

What would be more “fair” would be for you to answer people’s comments and questions about conscience. You evade that topic. Why?

118. Rear View Mirror - August 15, 2008

If it’s “your truth,” post it on apollo.org. Place it on the home page. Say it out loud at a meeting. Discuss it at the Galleria. Send emails to your friends in the FOF. If it’s your truth, take everything you’ve written here, and share it with each and every FOF follower.

You can’t, though, can you. It reveals too much. People would see how insane your thinking is. They would think about leaving. They would leave. But if it’s your “truth,” why does it matter whether anyone leaves. Say it out loud, Cardiac. Share everything you’ve said with everyone. Let everyone in the FOF know how there is nothing wrong wrong.

119. Rear View Mirror - August 15, 2008

circles.

120. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

You’re talking to a wall, not a man.

121. Across the River - August 15, 2008

Traveler: “Are you saying that those of Robert’s sex partners who have left the FOF, left only because they were spiritually discontented and not growing, and only later came up with an “explanation” that they left “because” they were being sexually manipulated by Robert?”

DC: “Basically this is what I believe; except I think the “explanation” as you call it, comes before they actually leave, not later. And being “discontented and not growing” is an effect, not a cause. The cause of discontent would be not wanting to make the effort necessary to ‘grow.’”

————
DC, I truly don’t want to speak out of turn for those who went through this, but I know some very mighty efforts “to grow” have been required of Robert’s sex partners to transform the realization that in their most vulnerable and open state with their teacher, the rape of spirit, mind and body was perpetrated upon them by an old, ravenous queen for purely licentious purposes. And the erection issue you presented was strictly convenient to your spin but bullshit if you care to really research it further.

You perpetuate lies, excuses and blame to cover serious wrong-doing. I can only hope for you that one day you may be allowed to bear that burden.

What you have yet to understand is beyond overwhelming.

But…..you ARE a good little soldier, proud and sure, assured by your commander that all is well, content with your place. “Truth is very expensive, we change by making sacrifices…truth is very expensive, we change by making sacrifices…truth is very expensive, we change by making sacrifices…truth is very expensive, we change by making sacrifices…”

now slowly fade to black.

*********************

DC is either a real Fellowship member or someone’s joke on us…time will tell. Either way, the truth is stranger than fiction.

122. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

He doesn’t speak of conscience because it doesn’t compute. This is not a normal human being. This is a boil on the ass of humanity. Remember how Scott Peterson was during his trial. Affable, logical. The perfect sociopath. Do you think I’m over using that word? Think about the shills that have posted here. They all have several things in common. Think about it.

123. David Darby - August 15, 2008

DC~85
You put a lot of effort into your post. Nice job.
I think however, to do your thoughts justice we need to look at some of the lynch-pins
of your arguments. Each argument works well by itself, yet they often contradict each other.
About sexual allegations you say;
“The other part is that the stories are alleged, and I wanted to keep that fact in the forefront. They cannot be proven in this arena so why not qualify our dialog with that in mind.” and “As far as a conspiracy; I don’t think people are in collusion, or plotting together, but their common aims and motivations will produce similar responses, and it’s clear that at times they feed off of each other.”
Yet a few paragraphs down you say ”Robert’s role in sex is well documented.” Then go on to give descriptions of RB’s sexual (but not ‘alleged’ in this case hmm?) proclivities.
Your argument breaks down to something like this; RB has sex with many male students, but, ex-students who talk about the sex they had with RB are lying.

Another is, “I’ll say this much with as much certainty as a person can reasonably claim: For every man Robert has asked to have sex with him and who may have felt “put out” or “pressured” there is at least one other man who would have given anything to be asked by Robert but he did not even consider asking them. And some of those individuals left the FoF because they were not asked to have sex.” Translates to; For each person who was coerced into having sex (a minus), there is one who wants to (a plus). Add them together and they cancel each other out. No harm there, eh?

You then refute that any coercion takes place by equating the pressure that RB/god(dess)/conscious being/teacher can put upon a student with the pressure that you put on somebody by asking them to wash dishes. Here is an example that will help you to see how much of a stretch that is…A person’s boss telling them to finish a project by a deadline or they are fired is the same as arranging a meeting with a friend and telling them not to be late…Are they the same?

Further, “It is also of note to mention that no one has ever lost any normal privileges by saying no to Robert’s requests for sex.” The privileges that the ‘boys’ enjoy are far from normal, and the removal of these is part of the implied threat. Quite an interesting manipulation; ‘You can have all this, you just have to keep submitting to this’.

The rape/not rape issue has been well covered in other posts, see above.

You talk a lot about verification, missing an important point. Verification can be used to find what something is, and also what something isn’t. I can verify that the sky is blue. I can also verify that a boeing jet is not a Cessna. In your own words, you cannot verify that the FOF is not a school because “The truth (spiritual truth) is reserved for those who are looking for it and willing to pay for it.” You are not looking and the payment in this case is in having to face how much of an investment of money/energy/time that you have lost over the years, for nothing. Yet you cannot even admit the possibility that something may be wrong.
Let’s look at one area. School must have an aim. Start there. The stated aim of the ‘school’ was to create a new civilisation, contingent upon the fall of California and Armageddon.. Neither of which has occurred. What is the aim of the ‘school’ if civilisation still exists?

You admit that “No one who has ever inhabited this planet has gotten off mistake free.”,
And even that RB made mistakes “as a young teacher”, while excluding the possibility that he could be making a mistake or mistakes now.
“His actions have confused many members who were not able to experience or see those higher plans.”, yet “To me it’s not conceivable or possible that God, the gods, Influence C, Allah, would not equip us to verify the most important spiritual ideas regarding our own evolution. If that were the case then God would be a sociopath.”. So you are saying that we are equipped to understand, but if that understanding is not in accordance with RB then we’re not equipped?
Is God is the sociopath, or is it RB?

Well enough for tonight. There is plenty more for later. Perhaps you would benefit from re-reading your own words and seeing the glaring contradictions, along with how you paint yourself into a corner of justifications…

124. My4bits - August 15, 2008

I can hear the crackling sound, the whooshing, and the resounding boom, as the “mighty oak” of the Fellowship of Friends falls, and the dust settles.

I can hear the jubilation of release.

Can you hear it? Can you hear?

125. Ellen - August 15, 2008

Daily Cardiac – or whoever –

Suppose you were diagnosed with an incurable illness in one of your legs and told by your trusted family doctor that amputation was the only solution. Would you get a second opinion? I would, and I think you would also. Why then, do you refuse to step out of your little conceptual box to take a look around?

Robert teaches separate and go beyond.
Realized beings teach include and go beyond.
Is it true? How can you find out?

Robert teaches self remembering.
Realized beings teach self realization. (the two are not synonomous)
Is it true, how can you find out?

Robert teaches presence in personal consciousness.
Realized beings teach subtle non personal awareness.
How do they differ, how can you find out?

Robert teaches that you have an evil lower self, ready to devour your efforts to be present.
Realized beings teach integration, relaxation and intuitive insight, but not repression and denial.
Is there a difference, and how can you find out?

Robert teaches that consciousness is not functions.
Realized being teach that both consciousness and functions occur within the vast sea of awareness.
Is it true, how can you find out?

Is Robert a fully realized being?
If it’s not true, how can you find out?
If it is true, how do you verify it?

Do you truly wish to live your life as an amputee? For the longer you stay here disputing and refuting on this blog, the deeper you dig yourself into your little conceptual black hole. Are you at all interested to understand what the non-dual awakened state consists of? What Rumi and Walt Whitman surely knew of and understood? What a realized teacher would surely be able to teach?

Take a look at the table of contents of this book on Amazon, http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1591810531/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link (click table of contents). The material in this book should roughly correspond with what Robert is teaching, what we cover in our “School” right? Why not find out? And if you are not interested in finding out, why not?

Because no one here (contrary to your expectations) wants to talk you out of any thing real and true, rather they want you to examine your own personal (spiritual) truths to discover your own personal (spiritual) illusions – whatever they may be. I know you appreciate the metaphor of being tested, why do you not test yourself against anything more objective than your own conceptual thought structure?

126. My4bits - August 15, 2008

Revision of post 121:

I can hear the crackling sound, the whooshing, and the resounding boom, as the “mighty oak” of the Fellowship of Friends falls, and the dust settles.

I can hear the jubilation of release from the healthy ones;

I can hear the soothing words and offers of help from caring friends to those who are wounded or infirm;

I can hear the footsteps of good soldiers, enablers, and whores marching off toward greener pastures;

I can hear the whimpering of Robert Burton.

Can you hear it? Can you hear?

127. Reality Check - August 15, 2008

85:
“One other point of note: People can say no. The importance of this fact cannot be overstated. Like the old drug commercials “Just Say No.” Some people are angry at themselves today because they could not muster the courage to say no and they then transfer that self anger into blame of the asker.”

The Fellowship anthem for many years:

From “Notes On the Decision To Work” (Ouspensky):

“In order to understand better the necessity for accepting tasks given to you without hesitation, the necessity for ‘deliberate suffering’ and ‘conscious effort,’ think about ideas which brought you to the work, think about the first realization of your mechanicalness and the first realization that you know nothing. In the beginning you realized this and you came for help, but now you doubt whether you must really do as you are told. And you try to find ways to evade it, to stand on your own judgment and on your own understanding. You understood clearly once, that your judgment and your understanding are false and weak, but now you try to keep them again. You don’t want to give them up. Well, you can keep them, but you must understand that with them you will keep all that is false and weak in yourself. There are no half measures. You must decide: do you want to work or not?”

Students are not to own non-pedigree pets, will you have them destroyed?

Students are not to remain in contact with their “life parents,” will you cut them off?

Students are not to keep their pre-school children, will you give them up?

Students are not to mingle with the life people living around the property, will you isolate?

Students are not to gossip, will you keep my secret?

Students (especially those young men around Burton) are not to have sex outside of marriage, will you get good and horny?

Will you move into the Academy?

Will you go to Europe with me?

Will you let me buy you new clothes?

Will you realize how lucky you are to be around a man number 7?

Will you follow me please?

Will you lock the door please?

Anyone here on the blog really think that Cardiac would say no to the next order from his conscious teacher?

It’s all an insane cult of thorough corruption and you’re stuck in it with your brains removed.

Click on the name link for a peek into the predator’s bedroom.

128. Draco - August 15, 2008

DC, well good for you for actually replying to Traveler’s points. I appreciate that it does take a lot of time to respond to long posts. I’m just going to respond to a few of the points you made.

“I’ll say this much with as much certainty as a person can reasonably claim: For every man Robert has asked to have sex with him and who may have felt “put out” or “pressured” there is at least one other man who would have given anything to be asked by Robert but he did not even consider asking them. And some of those individuals left the FoF because they were not asked to have sex.”

This is not true. There are certainly many members who would want to travel with Robert, but few who would want to have sex with him. Some may leave the Fellowship because they want an intense personal teacher/student relationship and it’s not possible to have that (or the semblance of it) with Robert unless you’re picked out as a potential sex partner or you have money. Others may leave because what they thought would be a straightforward teacher-student relationship was instead dominated by Robert’s sexual demands. I’m not familiar enough with logical fallacies to identify the ones that you use, but fallacies abound it your writing, and it’s all the more obvious because of your mode of using pseudological argument. One of your common methods is to say, “People leave the FOF because of reason X, and people leave the FOF for reason Y which is the opposite of reason X. Therefore, neither of these are adequate reasons for which to leave the Fellowship.” However, each can be an adequate reason.
One person may leave a job because the job is too demanding, another may leave a job because it’s not demanding enough. One partner may leave a relationship because she didn’t want children, another partner may leave a relationship because he wanted children but they weren’t forthcoming. One person may leave the FOF because there’s not enough teaching (e.g., practical teaching), another may leave because there’s too much teaching (endless pay-as-you-go keys meetings, for instance).

However, your writings are not characterized only by fallacious logic, but by factual error. You state that you can’t believe that men would have erections if they didn’t want to have sex with Robert. Well, it happens. So he gives them Viagra and other erectile disfunction drugs. And often double doses. Robert’s most common form of sex is oral sex, which can easily stimulate the penis of an unwilling participant (what an odd phrase!) and his sexual partners are mostly men in their 20s, who can achieve erections easily and spontaneously regardless of their willingness. A friend who traveled with Robert told me that Robert asked him to share a Jacuzzi with Robert. Robert wanted him to wear speedos; he didn’t own a pair of speedos so Robert insisted that he wear someone else’s speedos, which were too small for him. He got into the Jacuzzi with Robert and, being a virile young man in his 20s, had an immediate erection which showed very visibly through the speedos, which was Robert’s obvious intention. He was very embarrassed. Robert plays the long game with his sexual victims. They travel with him often for months or even years, granting him an immense amount of authority over their lives. They have to do everything Robert’s way and at Robert’s particular pace when they travel with him. They are exhilarated by his charisma and his bizarre behavior, crushed when he “photographs” them for being in the lower self, instinctive center of false personality, and come to rely on him for approval. Once Robert chooses his moment to swoop (and Robert is an opportunist par excellence, much of his vaunted using of “shocks” is simply opportunism) resistance is difficult. Also, though it’s not the norm, FOF members have been shipped home or put on leave when they . Also, FOF members who stand their ground and say “no” firmly are unlikely to travel with him again, but Robert has a very good sense of how far he can push people) and is happy to put potential sexual through another round or softening up and try again later. And Robert invokes the same Influence C that you refer to in your post to persuade his companions to have sex with him, or to get involved in the more extreme sexual activities.

You used your other favorite fallacy in the following

Pressure is a relative thing. If I ask someone who has other plans to wash dishes at the Galleria I am “pressuring” them in the sense that I’m forcing them to make a decision or choice. If I ask a friend to join me for lunch I am pressuring them to a degree; in certain situations people may put undue pressure on themselves or they may not.

“Robert pressurizes people to have sex with him; if I ask someone to have lunch with me I am in a way pressurizing him; there is nothing wrong with me asking someone to lunch; therefore there is nothing wrong with Robert pressurizing someone to have sex with him.”

Surely you don’t believe this.

129. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

96 My4bits

You were talking about way-old students suffering from chronic depression. For me, when this has been an ‘extended-in-time-state’ (the longest being from leaving the FOF, in 1989, to starting a secondary education teacher training course, in 1992) the depression has always been linked to the feelings of non-I within the situation or ‘play’ (Funny about post 96 – denotes false Personality!?). Or, to put it in plainer English, there were no feelings of self-worth in my exper’iences. I think paulshabram may have pointed out the difference in self-state of the depressive compared to the hypo-manic as – the lower state having no sense of ‘I am’, but just being a ‘social thing’ and the ‘highs’ relate to one’s sense of true Self Reality. Maybe he, or whoever it may have been who posted it, will step in and reiterate.

There is so much blogging recently about how one can trust the System or REB and whether the FOF represents ‘The True Way’. I think, as anyone begins to have a taste of their ‘Growing Self’ (with all that brings), then all the responses of that state will make decisions about one’s spiritual position and there will be no need for defence/attack formatory argument, as expounded by ‘you know who……Nigel.

130. lauralupa - August 15, 2008

will coyote 70
I have a question. I read hat the sequence is an idea of Burton , who was “ispired” from Filocalia; In the Pilgrin’s way there is a man that learn to “live” with the Jesu’s mantra 24 hour a day. I think that works( like the number counting in many Orage-gurdjieff exercise) to channel a part of the mind to no wander, leaving another part( may be emotional part) to enjoy what is just here. A sort of sound to cover another noise to listen silence. But instead of this result it can makes a man schizoid. What do you think about it ?

My understanding is that repeating prayers or mantras works by replacing the internal chatter with a flow of repeating sound waves that in turn alter one’s breathing patterns, and have the effect of calming and focusing the mind and altering its vibratory state, thus making it possible to reach what we call a “higher state”.

The sequence possesses no such flow, instead it’s composed of a series of brief intellectual commands, and this innatural stop-and-go pattern tends to evoke the opposite of relaxation. Basically, instead of letting one’s tensions go and focusing one’s attention on a peaceful flow of rhytmical sounds and breathing, which has the potential of gradually and naturally lead one into a state of increased awareness, one is elaborately forcing one’s mind and body into an artificial alertness of the surrounding environment that does not possess momentum, and is stuck on the level of a moment-to-moment struggle.

This sort of “technique” would not be efficient in significanlty raising one’s vibratory level, thus effectively altering one’s state, and that is possibly the reason why the sequence, even when practiced earnestly and repeatedly, never leads to more than a few seconds of presence at a time. And in the long run, as you say, it can even result in unpleasant states and unhealthy results.

From my own verifications I see that there’s nothing particularly mysterious or magical about how this works, as other have pointed out before, the creation of “higher” or “altered” states is all about altering biochemistry and brainwave patterns. Hindu and Biddhist mystics have been working along these lines for over two thousand years. The amount of ignorance on these subjects inside the FOF is another clear indicator of it being a cult and nowhere near a spiritual school. It’s really a bad case of the blind leading the blind!

I hope this helps. Good luck and keep experimenting…

131. Mick Danger - August 15, 2008

I told you – I have 3 guns not 2 clubs.

132. Ames Gilbert - August 15, 2008

In my opinion, encouraging Daily Cardiac to ‘spill the beans’ like this (around post #45-85 or thereabouts) is worth the effort of engaging him. I’m not going to ‘change his mind’, nor should I want or expect that. I think he really has told his truth as he sees it, and clearly explained his world–view. Thank you, Daily Cardiac, sincerely.
I see him as an excellent and articulate representative of the fully indoctrinated follower, beautifully displaying the twisted ‘reasoning’ that has to occur to justify supporting Burton and his fantasy. My hope is that any fence–sitters (now and to come) will recognize the extraordinary contortions and justifications for what they are, will note the consistent avoidance of various subjects, and will start to deeply question their own reasons for joining and staying.

133. veronicapoe - August 15, 2008

whalerider, that was brave.

134. Richard M. - August 15, 2008

85. Daily Cardiac

Thank you for the well researched and truly hilarious post (a little long-winded however).
I am now convinced that Daily Cardiac is not a member of never has been a member of FOF. I think he/she is one of those close-in zit-faced geeks who finds a blog, reads enough to get a good intellectual grasp of the subject, and then posts in a way to bait others into responding. The big thrill is fooling other bloggers into believing their horse shit.
The big tell is this: Mr. Bobby-Robert Burton does not allow such dirty talk about penises and penetration, especially if it refers to him.
Shit, he used to instruct men to run water in the bathroom sink to disguise the sound of their urine hitting the toilet water when the bathroom was adjacent to the room he was in. And don’t even think about making any noise when farting in his company. Unless DC is an intimate boy partner of RB, his naughty talk will likely not be tolerated.

If DC is indeed a current member of FOF, I think he will be identified by the FOF authorities and punished for talking so dirty about Bobby.

Does anyone have any clues to his real identity (short of naming him) they can share here???

135. ton - August 15, 2008

99 ‘poe
“Justice” is that robot button, no matter what he does or who he does, can’t get no satisfaction.”

keeping in mind the injustice that others have to suffer as a result of robot’s malfunction which is “justified” by the “fact” that robot is “a conscious being” and therefore uniquely privileged to use, abuse, dispose of others as “it” sees fit. “The teacher” as “it” was called, “taught” that everybody on the planet is a “machine,” a “sleeping” machine to boot. Everyone is a machine, asleep…. that is, except THE ONE, Robot Button. The word “Humanity” is a misnomer in referring to 6.7 billion sleeping machines. Sleeping machines can’t possibly fathom the morality of “a conscious being.” this all strikes me as another example of “somewhat” delusional thinking… but that’s just me. people need to “believe-in” someone/something and some folks continue to buy into this fairy’s tale, selling their souls in the process. the good news is the fact that many more people choose to leave the followship than to stay… to the one’s who stay this is supposed to prove how difficult is “the way” !?! ha ha, wake up! joke’s on you! preposterous…

adjective, Etymology: Latin praeposterus, literally, in the wrong order, from prae- + posterus hinder, following — more at posterior
Date: 1542 : contrary to nature, reason, or common sense : absurd

136. brucelevy - August 15, 2008

130. Richard M.

Rich, you can’t see Peter “stick up my ass” I. as a distinct possibility? Close your eyes and remember for a minute.

137. whalerider - August 15, 2008

daily cardiac:

Thank you. Your simple acknowledgement of my existence (and of the suffering of others) like my4bits, brucelevey, veronicapoe and many others earlier on this blog is the first step in the process of healing your narcissism and becoming more humane.

Congratulations, you have begun to surpass your guru.

In the interest of fairness, I am sorry to have ridiculed you in my earlier posts. You have displayed great restraint in not attacking me in response, and I appreciate that.

Please keep posting. Writing out your thoughts and exposing your thinking to the feedback of others enables you to separate from them and begin to see the indoctrination that has infected your mind and clouded your reason. Remember, you are not alone; there are more caring ex-members than caring members!

If you decide to trust yourself, take your fate into your own hands and take action in your own best interest, we will be here to support you out of love, not for money or sexual favors.

In the true tradition of a spiritual practice, you do not have to pay us any money, it is free. The only required payment is that you release your illusions and grandiosity. Get out of your head, put your feet back on the earth, and walk the walk. Accept that you are no different than anyone else, and you will be free to love yourself and others again. As Nigel says, only Allah is perfect.

Then you will have awakened to your own divinity, my friend.

138. elena - August 15, 2008

Daily Cardiac:

“We always pay for higher truths by giving up lower truths. By that I mean giving up lower truths is the currency we need to pay for higher truths. There is no other way. One can read or recite brilliant texts until hell freezes over without producing any real results.

We change by making sacrifices. Often by doing what the lower self does not want us to do.”

Please share with us what it is that you, Robert or the Fellowship has sacrificed for humanity. Or are the sacrifices only for infra-humanity?

Do you think you can come here and do your show in theory without really telling your story and get away with it? That we’ll be dominated into idolatry like those submitted inside with your recitations? You’ve been doing it successfully for so long that you’re naïve enough to really think so and convince yourself it is not because you submit them but because you’re so consciously convincing. Do you think we’ll applaud at the costumes without seeing the play? That we’ll pay your dues without seeing your practice?

I suppose you think that I’ve exposed my whole life here because I enjoy showing my pubic hairs to the public like a cheap travesty in a brothel and not because in an examination like this one complete transparency is the main condition? I dare you tell us your story and not just your theory: What did you get from the Fellowship with all your sacrifices? What is your role, how much do you get paid, for how long have you been there. Don’t just show us the cream of your convictions. Convictions are easy in Cults, it’s the practices what makes a School.

Please extend yourself and tell us what have Mr. Burton and the Fellowship sacrificed and performed as Conscious acts? Shall we start with the Fellowship which you are so convinced is a Conscious, the only Conscious School on Earth?

Has the Fellowship of Friends presented the World with great works of Art, literature or Architecture like other Conscious Schools have done?

Has it provided care for the sick and the old like Mother Teresa of Calcutta who your conscious teacher declared one Sunday morning would burn in the Moon for eternity for cleaning people’s disgusting dirt? Together with Ghandi and Winston Churchill who were no more sleep than her?

Has it provided its members with a balanced life in which movement follows the body, the heart and the mind develop in Art and food is shared with grace like in some of the Eastern Schools?

Explain to us then why although the Fellowship has received MILLIONS of dollars from its members, it has collected replicas of minor art and never developed but a handful of mediocre artists and dozens of frustrated lives? Not because they didn’t have the talent but because your so very conscious teacher cut their wings before they could fly?

Why does your Conscious Teacher not attend the plays of his Conscious Students? Not even his proclaimed second Conscious being on Earth, Mr. Haven’s symposium? Why are his student’s works not good enough for his presence? Isn’t he, after all, their Teacher?

Why don’t you tell us before you have another Cardiac arrest, why is Consciousness in the Fellowship of Friends handcuffed and soldered to Mr. Burton and Mr. Haven’s wardrobe? Is it because in its divine expression, consciousness is not the birthright of each human being as the Fourth Way System states but the private property of you and Mr. Burton by divine grace? The elected by Influence C because of your multiple abnegations and sacrifices?

Please tell us then what have been the sacrifices from you and Mr. Burton that have endowed you with so much power over not only the members of the Fellowship but the six billion dead people on Earth in relation to whom you stand as the only elected ones by the Gods?

Is it perhaps Mr. Burton’s predictions on how the World will collapse doomed by the Gods because of its worthiness saving only him and his crew?

Or his uncontrollable addiction to moving palm trees and changing the decoration so that the devoted disciples feel they are evolving?

Or does it manifest in your graces ability to be the only one’s worth hearing? Is it that not only consciousness was granted to you by the Gods as the sole legitimate owners of it but also speech? Would you then state that the rest of the members were given mouths to keep silent and swallow?

Perhaps Mr. Burton’s sacrifices are obvious in the innumerable Gucci and Versace clothes that he gives away to his favorites so that he can go shopping again next week and the week after?

Or in the unbearable trips he has to take to five star hotels to Europe and Egypt (where he might actually find some more willing candidates used to the practices) with his convicted sex partners who have to agree to the deal before they can get on the plane?

Do please tell us, what other sacrifices does Mr. Burton make for his followers?

Your graciousness of tone and balanced rationality would perhaps deign to explain to our limited brains number one, two and three the infinite Consciousness of Mr. Burton and Mr. Haven’s divinity and please don’t forget to include the newly awarded candidates, Mr. Asaf and Mr. Dorian.

Perhaps the sacrifices you are talking about refer to Mr. Haven’s having to give up his wives for increasingly younger ones so that they would finally fit the perfect purity of his childlike imaginations just like Mr. Burton’s fixation on childlike males who have to consume extravagant amounts of Viagra to get it erected and pay for the clothes? Not nearly as “voluntarily” as you describe and deform Mr. Cardiac. The descriptions of the sexual practices have not at all been presented here in the manner you’ve described. Might you be giving us a divine lie convinced that you are in the bubble that won’t explode?

Maybe we should get serious and concentrate on the real sacrifices Mr. Burton has had to make when he had to tolerate the likes of Gloria Cambridge and Claire Bowen who he had to ban from his dining events because they ate too much and talked too freely about their pleasure with the food and the joy of being in his company, too old to adapt to the king of hearts strait jackets that the rest of the members harnessed on themselves like horses in an equestrian show?

Or the sacrifices both Mr. Burton and Mr. Haven have to make to have each and every one of their words videod to the rest of mankind for eternity looking like a frog about to jump out of his green suit and a poodle in a circus, vowing his head after each of Asaf’s commands and smiling behind his hairy tail at the audience?

Do you mean sacrifices Mr. Cardiac or throwing your life out the window so that the members become vulnerable enough to serve unconditionally in your brothel? Or are we to believe that you seriously commit to the understanding that what Mr. Ouspensky meant was that in the Fourth Way Tradition, aspirants had to get rid of their parents, friends and family like Mr. Haven and Mr. Burton did together with the only true members of your congregation who were willing to abort their children and give them up for adoption at Mr. Burton’s command?

You have not mentioned in your long posts the many women who have had to do this by Robert’s command. I guess you would place them amongst the sacrifices that must be made to awakening and not to keep the Fellowship from having to support the many children Robert’s boys fuck out of life when they desperately get home after one of their sacred rituals at the Galleria trying to check if they can still have a normal erection with the woman of their dreams in a nightmare they no longer recognize as their own?

I suppose you would say that all these sacrifices must be made by the followers so that Mr. Burton can continue shopping and Mr. Haven talking because one is no less addicted than the other?

You’ve come to the right place here because you have an unlimited amount of paper to examine the innumerable sacrifices that Mr. Haven, Mr. Burton and the Fellowship of Friends have done to deserve the title of the only Conscious School on Earth.

Wasn’t it Mr. Burton himself who taught us that the unexamined life is not worth living?
Maybe we can all rejoin when you patiently explain to us the myriad areas that we cannot grasp in our limited unconscious brains.

139. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

126 lauralupa

“Altered states…..biochemical…..and…..brainwave patterns.”

I think you would be intensely interested by ‘Google’ – “bi-polar affective disorder – artists”. Just count the CBs!…..Nigel.

140. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

134 elena

Thank God…..the nearest REB came to making a pass at me was kissing my hand after one of those sumptuous dining experiences! and Thank God…..I was too busy following the ‘dictates’ of my own ‘play’ (having dug an FOF teaching-payment induced, debt-hole and trying to climb out of it – I NEVER MANAGED IT!). For some of us, either by WHAT WAS STARING US RIGHT IN THE FACE or by the Welling Up of True Conscience, STOP EXCERCISE became STOP BEING A MEMBER OF THE FOF!…..Nigel.

141. veronicapoe - August 15, 2008

I like it: the STOP exercise means STOP making teaching payments!

142. somebody - August 15, 2008

DC 85 “We turn inward. We transform what has been passed our way. And then we are free. We are not overly concerned with this body, this fleeting existence because we are working for a higher, eternal existence.”

Be careful. This attitude made some people suicidal. Maybe what you are sacrificing is the only thing you’ve got – this life. Enjoy it!

143. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

I was just reading in blogsite 3(3) about the new Pope apologising for the ‘abuse of minors’. Buddha stated – “To be born human, implies imperfection”. I suppose our faults (or could we use the word ‘features’?) help keep us stuck to our earthly role. However, if we study the roles of Buddha, Christ etc., we find that ‘their way’ was to work with their faults (yes, even Christ contradicted himself, in what I would describe as being in a bi-polar way) and ‘climb the path back to God’ (or God-State). REB does NOTHING OF THE SORT! From day one of instituting the FOF, he has maintained a state of self-aggrandising, self-indulgence, (which, by all recent descriptions, has reached an all-time ‘high’). No wonder that many posts have described the ‘inability to reconcile maintaining their presence and trying to work in the ‘school’ with REBs behaviour’!
…..Nigel.

144. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

138 somebody

I do not agree with (what I think are) most Eastern teachings that this physical world is ‘illusion’. A good ‘kick in the pants’ for some people would prove the error! My own feeling is that the Universe contains ‘material’ of different ‘natures’ and levels. Just to approach a tricky subject, Whitman said “…in the direct as well as the indirect lifetime…”, which I took to be a reference to the physical having as much need of attention-by-conscience as the striving for ‘spiritual realms’. I would welcome ‘robust dialogue’ on the subject. I feel we should take care of ourselves and each other as much as we can. Nigel.

145. Renald - August 15, 2008

“96. My4bits – August 15, 2008
Today’s topic, in my “chain of 30 links” de-programming ritual, is “the higher,” and includes the concepts of “higher forces” or “influence C.”

(This post is a bit long, but I hope to entertain “

For anyone who read this post and who think that the scenarious and quotes are merely entertainments, they are not. I mean reading it could be entertaining all right, but they are factual.

I remember being at a dinner when Gilbert asked if a particular mid-east poet could not be added to the 44. RB responded , “ Oh? What did HE do?“ Once again he was stuck for an answer.

Thanks `bits` for the memories. Sometimes reading all the verbiage gets me in a forgetful state and sometimes even some confusion, which by the way we were told is a “higher state“. lol. The facts and nothing but the facts. That is what straightens me out a bit.
Cheers!

146. Across the River - August 15, 2008

134 Elena

As I understood it, sacrificing one’s sense of **morality** (not in caps) was up there high on the list. The gradual, steady process conveniently legitimized by RB’s term **Feminine Dominance** (in caps) so that **students** didn’t/don’t have to question their own compass. How tidy all these terms make **the work**, just the way RB likes it.

147. Across the River - August 15, 2008

140 nigel

My understanding is similar to yours…..that if we were only the stuff of spirit we wouldn’t be here. Through many vehicles we can experience that “All is One” and KNOW this to be true. I’m also very interested, though, in working out my **own** being as it continues to become known to me, and this world is the laboratory. For now this means paying attention to levels of attachment of any kind, including the notion that I’m a spiritual seeker. The “memes” discussions here were really helpful in understanding something I’d previously had no word for. My experience continues to prove that form is irrelevant and meaning follows no form.

I appreciate this topic, nigel. Like Elena and many others, being able to express myself here means alot to me.

Peace!

148. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

143 Across the River

Brill!!!…..Nige.

149. whalerider - August 15, 2008

Daily Cardiac:

PS. In all the time I spent close to RB, he said nothing orginal. He seemed no more conscious than anyone else. I soon learned that if he was more conscious than the rest of us, it was because he had to act more conscious because of his self-proclaimed role. He surrounds himself with followers who have the need to project their own inner guides onto him and he panders to this weakness. Then he helps himself to the spoils. If you step out of line, you get the boot. That’s his leverage that keeps you in mental bondage.

Good luck to you.

150. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

145 whalerider

The Bible talks, at one point, of “(false prophets) tickling the ears of their followers”. Anyone want to fill in the REB quotes on this subject?
Nigel.

151. nigel harris price - August 15, 2008

143 Across the River
I feel that the spitiritual gives rise to the physical. As Sufi Inayayat Khan stated – “Every child born on Earth is an exile from Heaven”. James Blunt’s newest album is ‘All the Lost Souls’…………….Nigel.

As a reference to REB from ‘Hue and Cry’/Remote – “If you keep taking, you never can leave…”

152. arthur - August 15, 2008

Elena (134),

Talk about pouring super glue on DC’s pubic hairs!

153. Another Name - August 15, 2008

Dear Whalerider and others,

Thanks for your post Whalerider and my heart is with you.

To me acknowledging your deeper pain, writing it out and grieve and mourn is a hard process and essential to beome true to your self. To get into the “high”s and overcome the low’s as Nigel mentioned and Martha Beck points it out so well in her book: “Finding your North star.

My heart feels with you now Whalerider.

154. Opus 111 - August 15, 2008

A few musings on what our resident DC wrote in #86:

I do not think this may be someone who was never in the FOF. I think his view adheres so close to the rethorics of those at the helm that it could not quite be so perfectly improvised by an outsider. I have been wrong before…

“I can’t say what mistakes Robert may or may not have made 38 or even 30 years ago as I was not around then. He has often said he made mistakes as a young teacher. I’m sure he has grown from them.”

One could say RB has truly grown from his single sexual mistakes of the past. He is now able to repeat them in large groups, according to reports here.

“The nature of verification, as I said, is personal. It cannot be transferred from one person to another like frequent flyer miles. No one can implant verification into someone else.”

The nature of faith is personal. Verifications, reality testing (VP) should be easily transferrable and reproducible.

“Then there are purely esoteric, or spiritual laws. These are the hardest to uncover, to grasp. Sometimes these laws overlap the other two, but other times they obliterate and contradict the other kinds. One example of this is when a spiritual test or trial will necessitate that someone overrides a moral law for the sake of their own spiritual development, or the spiritual development of others. This was the case when Robert skipped his mother’s funeral at the last moment when he received a shock from Influence C.”

DC has obviously no way of ‘verifying/knowing’ that RB was following a spiritual law, even if RB said so. One could as well say that, by not attending his mother’s funeral, RB was displaying one of his many, major character flaws.

“This (ignoring moral laws for the sake of spiritual laws) is also behind Robert’s relationships with some members as I see it. Many ex-students judge Robert for breaking moral laws when he is, in those moments, obeying higher laws. As I understand things Robert’s ways are intricately tied in to Influence C’s plans. His actions have confused many members who were not able to experience or see those higher plans. He has forced many people to let go of their moral identifications in order to grasp higher laws. Some who could not let go found it necessary to leave.”

To suggest that having sex with his students is tied to Influence C plans boggles the mind. But I confess that I am unable to “see those higher plans”. And no, the word conscience did not once appear.

155. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 16, 2008

#150: From a DC quote of an earlier blog:

‘Many ex-students judge Robert for breaking moral laws when he is, in those moments, obeying higher laws.’

This reasoning allows many Fellowship members to stay without experiencing the pain former members indure upon leaving. Many of us have explained over and over it’s not a moral issue, but a matter of broken trust and abuse of power.

With this faulty reasoning in place present members are able to avoid the emotional and physical pain experienced upon recognizing how this trust has been broken, how the abuse of power continues and how they are actually victims of this abuse.

That’s why many people exiting the FOF feel personally empowered. Taking personal responsibility is very empowering.

156. Silver Lining - August 16, 2008
157. Ames Gilbert - August 16, 2008

My4bits (#45-96 or thereabouts),
Thank you so much for that post. Thank you for all your posts, for that matter, but that particular one resonated particularly strongly.
The way I see it, right from the beginning Burton needed the resources of many more followers than he could conveniently control, so he invented helpers of an especially useful kind; invisible, unapproachable, communicating only through him, guarding his interests 24 hours a day, and acting as a personal and exclusive court of appeal to overcome any question of his authority. Note, however, no such recourse or appeal was available for his followers. Custom-made for abuse! He closed the sale by claiming that they were also looking after the followers’ best interests.

I like Anne Herbert’s update of Lord Actons words. She said, “Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible”.

158. Another Name - August 16, 2008

Dear friends,

When the 6 students were send away because they went to see Adya Shanti I was especially surprised Robert felt no need for closure and did not seem to grief or mourn. Just a dismissal of students. I was surprised to see this, as many students were in the fellowship of friends for many years. All these years he seemed not to grief when somebody left his group. One time when he didn’t get his way sexually he kept begging a person he wanted sex with him, in the way a 4 year shy child mumbles if he can stay up late. Already knowing the answer is NO. Tat was his way of dealing with loss…mumbling like a child asking to get his favours.

In my own process of leaving the fellowship of friends, I have now come to realize that grieving is a necessity to keep me healthy, mental, emotional and physical. I see this daily in my job, people who are not able to mourn, to grief about losses in their lives and who get stuck and can not move on, can not heal, can not enjoy themselves. People who do become sick emotional, physical and or both.

Martha Beck states in her book follow your North Star that sociopaths do not grief and have no conscience.

The chapter is called

When replacement is impossible

Our deepest grief, f course is reserved for things that have no acceptable substitutes, loved ones, relationships, health, hopes, and dreams. Trying to replace someone special to you or something you once were, is as useless as trying to replace the sun with a Lava lamp. If you suffer this kind of loss, the road to your North Star lies through grieving. There is nothing to do but mourn, and the pain will disappear a lot faster if you lean into it.
Greg (sorry this is the name she mentioned in her book ) came to me for career help, not knowing that his mother was about to die from heart disease. He’d just quit his job, gotten a new one, and set out to prove himself to his new employers when his mother passed away. Naturally Greg’s newly colleagues sympathized with his loss. They did not expect him to be really focused and upbeat at work for a whole week or maybe two.
“ I don’t know what is wrong with me” Greg said a month after his mother’s passing. “I am tired all the time, I don’t have the strive I should . I’ve got to pull myself together and start performing at work.”
I’ve seen this kind of things often and it always breaks my heart. The human psyche doesn’t heal over night, not from a blow like the loss of a mother. Our reason-over-passion work culture doesn’t make room for mourning. When Patricia Schrouder of Colorado was running for president, her detractors mocked her because she’d been seen crying in public. “I would not want control of nuclear power to be in the hands of someone who cries” said of one Schroeder’s opponents. She retorted,” I would want control of nuclear power to be in the hands of someone who doesn’t cry” The way our culture is set up is that mot of the power goes to people who are numb to grief and empathy. Psychologist have a name for these folks, they are called socio paths. In case you do not know this is another word for completely, alarmingly, dangerously crazy people.

So speak Martha Beck.

Not being able to grief …why did we not see this earlier….Robert is sick, very sick and so sick he does not even see it himself…..so sad.

159. fofblogmoderator - August 16, 2008

#2, 21, 123 and 125 are newly moderated. Sorry about the late moderation, I forgot to check the spam filter yesterday. Hello and welcome to the new contributors.

160. veronicapoe - August 16, 2008

I recently read Martha Beck’s book Leaving the Saints. It is an account of her leaving the Mormon Church. I enjoyed the book, and it may find a receptive audience in the readers of this blog.

161. veronicapoe - August 16, 2008
162. Fat Boy - August 16, 2008

Hello Bruce and Bares Responding,

No I am not DC, he is more restrained; it was nice to see you guys remembered me! From what little I read from DC, he seems to have the same buffers about Robert and the School I had 3 years ago. He also has no sense of humor.

I miss you Bruce!

163. will coyote - August 16, 2008

Higher laws contains lower laws : Gesu contains Mose is his fulfillment; to go or not to go at one funeral is the same law. To the man who want go to bury his mother G.says one key world:
Be herald of coming good !
Find always time to be good with friends, with relatives, with pupils :. this is higher law.

164. lauralupa - August 16, 2008

Fat Boy,
I am jealous, don’t you miss me too? I have missed you!
Seriously, what are you up to these days?
Your post was brief but promising…

165. Across the River - August 16, 2008

Will anyone who is knowledgeable please clarify the authority under which the FoF operates in a tax-exempt status?

Is it State law, Federal law or both?

Veronicapoe?

166. Ellen - August 16, 2008

Fat Boy,
Welcome back. Nice to hear from you and to know you are still following the blog along. Just keep listening and watching your internal stuff as it rises to the defense. I bet Vinnie is here too, listening, following along. Warm greetings to you both!

167. lauralupa - August 16, 2008

nigel 139

Thanks for the link. One of my first cousins is bipolar, so I am personally acquainted with the difficulties of the condition, and
I admire the way you are working with it.

I also wholeheartedly agree with what you say in # 144. Mind and body, or physical and spiritual levels, are a continuum and not a dichotomy! The dangerous consequences of misunderstanding this basic reality are so evident in people like DC, who are at present totally lost in their heads and out of touch with the truths contained in their body and the physically-based sensations they have so diligently learned to distrust…

168. WonderingWhosWatching - August 16, 2008

Hey, folks, just catching up here. I blinked my eyes and 300+ posts appeared. So, sorry, if this may be a long post.

44/161. nigel harris price – August 12, 2008:

Re: Your Shakespeare quote:

Here it is Nige:

Could great men thunder
As Jove himself does,
Jove would ne’er be quiet,
For every pelting, petty officer
Would use his heaven for thunder; nothing but thunder.
Merciful heaven!
Thou rather with thy sharp and sulphurous bolt
Split’st the unwedgeable and gnarled oak
Than the soft myrtle; but man, proud man,
Drest in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he’s most assur’d,
His glassy essence, like an angry ape,
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As make the angels weep; who, with our spleens,
Would all themselves laugh mortal.

Measure for Measure
Act II, scene ii, lines 137 – 150
William Shakespeare 1564-1616

– – – – – –

44/189. Daily Cardiac – August 12, 2008:

‘Girard, in an e-mail letter to other students mentioned that he did not intend to read the blog as he considered it not the best use of his time.’

Best use of Girard’s time is to view pornography. That likely is a better aim than cultivating critical thinking.

– – – – – –

44/208. Daily Cardiac – August 13, 2008:

‘I would reason that School on earth came from higher school, maybe those same prototype angles [should read: ‘angels’ not ‘angles.’ There are no angles (of thought (or view)) allowed any more in FoF.].’

Consider that one angel, very near to God, became a fallen angel, known as the devil or Satan. That is an example of a prototype angel gone awry. It also describes, very well, the circumstances of Robot Button; if he ever was any where near to God. And, that is the God’s honest truth, from God’s lips to my ear.

D.C., your description of The Sequence, while worthwhile, both in description and practice, could just as well be, for example, various sorts of mantras, or Hare Krishna devotees with their satchels of prayer bead strings. Can you possibly see that? Anything that promotes and prolongs presence is useful, I suppose. One could invent many different methods. The Sequence is, by no means, unique or special. Eventually, more than likely, it will become sleep inducing and some other method will have to be imposed/’invented.’ But, it is possible, that The Sequence + 4 wordless breaths has an infinite number of permutations and iterations and variability that makes it work forever. But, then again, if you are present, what is forever?

Come now, Daily Cardiac, you are really here just to take up space, aren’t you? By your 45/87. Daily Cardiac – August 15, 2008 it seems obvious (though on the other hand, you actually try to address, ad nauseum, questions put to you in your very circuitous manner). Well, there is the possibility you are here for comic relief. If DC is PI, then he is not here to do PR, so much as he’s here to do PI: Private Investigation. If it is PI, PI is a GH (GH does not mean ‘gate house’ but certainly has to do with some sense of security) understudy. If you’re a CB (conscious being) you have to have understudies, as that role is too important to be expendable – that way avoids another Miles play.

– – – – – –

44/219. Ellen – August 13, 2008:

‘Every one who departs pricks at the conscience of those who remain.’

Yes, that is true and also, given the sex-for-hire (sex-for-higher) nature as practiced in that org and described on this blog, one could also say: ‘Everyone who is pricked may have their conscience and depart.’

– – – – – –

44/225. Draco – August 13, 2008:

‘My concerns about Robert’s sexuality are:- . . .’ [The punctuation seems symbolic in a way.]

Your six points are a sequence. It should awaken anyone in FoF and promote and prolong presence.

– – – – – –

44/234. nosridammus – August 13, 2008:

‘Anybody have any rollover seconds on their astral body they would like to sell? I am feeling a little solid this morning.’

I hear Karl W. has rollover seconds on his astral body. Or, is that: Karl W. has rolled over in his grave [given what has become of the vineyard and winery].

– – – – – –

44/271. Daily Cardiac – August 13, 2008

‘The first step in the journey towards consciousness is to attempt to know what is good for oneself and give up the illusion that one can know what is good for another.’

Daily Cardiac, this is a very good set of words the meaning of which is realized by practicing being the words. If everyone in FoF, from the leader to the outer outer circle, practiced that, FoF would be a very different place. Instead, FoF is made up of many people who insist on doing the 4th line of work. 4th line of work is where you work ON other people. The higher in FoF hierarchy (‘high ARK key’ that never can be reached) you go, the more you will find that. One other aspect of 4th line of work is that, for them who practice it, alas, it replaces work on themselves.

Summa summarum, that is, to sum it up, the above quotation from your post is a lie.

In this regard, I have company:

’45/114. brucelevy – August 15, 2008:

111. [113] Daily Cardiac

Your truth is a lie.’

Thanks, Bruce, it is a pleasure to call a spade, not a Card[iac], but a dirt shovel.

And:

’45/115. My4bits – August 15, 2008:

A fucking lie.’

And:

’45/121. Across the River – August 15, 2008:

You perpetuate lies, excuses and blame to cover serious wrong-doing. I can only hope for you that one day you may be allowed to bear that burden.’

And:

’45/128. Draco – August 15, 2008:

I’m not familiar enough with logical fallacies to identify the ones that you use, but fallacies abound it your writing, and it’s all the more obvious because of your mode of using pseudological argument. . .

However, your writings are not characterized only by fallacious logic, but by factual error.’

And:

’45/138. elena – August 15, 2008:

Might you be giving us a divine lie convinced that you are in the bubble that won’t explode?’

Liar, liar; pants on fire!

– – – – – –

45/2. Daily Lobotomy – August 14, 2008:

How many ‘Hail Marys’ did you say you did?

– – – – – –

45/5. James Mclemore – August 14, 2008:

‘Are you certain you are not making substantial, things that if looked at a bit differently, appear to be a little more like finding out the Wizard of Oz was not who they thought he was?’

The Wiz says, ‘Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.’

– – – – – –

45/22. paulshabram – August 14, 2008
45/47. paulshabram – August 14, 2008:

What you are describing, re: negative emotions, is the difference between negative emotions (where negative emotions have no right place in our organism and are primarily imaginary/artificial) and the correct working of the negative half of the emotional center/brain.

Also, modern science now accepts the idea that the mere observation of something does actually change what is observed.

– – – – – –

45/37. dream catcher – August 14, 2008:

Re: Recent expulsions:

‘Same powertrip as Adyadhanti last year’

Adyashanti expulsion event was not last year, 2007, as I remember it, but was November 2006. Time flies when you’re having fun.

– – – – – –

45/86. nigel harris price – August 15, 2008:

‘Rodney Collin stated in ‘ToCH’ – “If we were to receive a message from C influence, we would probably dismiss it as ’something wrong’ with the TV set!”…..Nigel’

Nige, you got the gist close to the mark. I think it goes more like: ‘If an angel appeared to modern man, he would say, ‘What’s wrong with the T.V.?”

In FoF speak: If a ’44’ appeared to modern man, he would say, ‘May the fours be with you.’

– – – – – –

45/123. David Darby – August 15, 2008:

Daily Cardiac is so much in the present that the words that are written disappear and are meaningless. The only thing of importance is the current sentence; regardless of the truth of it, or lack thereof. Therefore, Daily Cardiac can say anything and it is certainly a surprise that it just doesn’t come out as pure gibberish.

– – – – – –

45/154. Opus 111 – August 15, 2008:

‘To suggest that having sex with his students is tied to Influence C plans boggles the mind. But I confess that I am unable to “see those higher plans”. And no, the word conscience did not once appear.’

Doesn’t anybody understand the very profound sacrifice that REB has made, is making, and will be making? All this sex stuff is about BIRTH CONTROL! REB intends to, single handedly (no pun intended), solve the world population problem and eliminate the 6-7 billion excess sleeping machines from the planet by, you guessed it, being the interloper that prevents an sexual contact between a man and a woman anywhere. What a megalomaniacal aim that must be!

169. Ellen - August 16, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

This one is for you:

In 1985 when Miles left the Fellowship, my then spouse did also. The whole event threw my personality into a tizzy, as it was no longer clear who I could believe – not Robert, not Miles, not my partner’s “i’s”, nor those of other people (members or otherwise), and certainly not my own.

One weekend soon after my partner’s departure, I drove up to Renaissance for the weekend. I was staying with friends who also were soon to depart. “I’s”, “I’s”, “I’s”… my head was filled with them.
Upon my arrival Friday night, I agreed to “talk” with my host/friend about it all the following morning, so we retired. But really, I could not rest well nor sleep. Sometime around dawn, I arose, made myself a cup of tea and went to sit on the front deck of my friend’s mobile home. With paper and pen, I began to explore the present moment, all the impressions, sights, sounds, scents, my feelings, and the words that arose to greet them. Soon, my nervous tension melted, an alchemical change occurred internally, the world around me and within me became charged with a livingness-intensity the like of which I had not known before. Everything was alive and vibrating and it was me, but not just the little sleepless identified one, stuck in her “I’s”. A deep peace arose. My questions (at least for the moment) were answered.

By then it was about 7:00 a.m. I washed and dressed and packed up my things for the day. No need to get into more “I’s” about these turbulent subjects, as for the present time, I had my resolution.
I remember well driving away that morning, my friend leaning over his front porch rails with a cup of coffee in his hands (“I thought we were going to talk?”). It was the third state. Two worlds meeting, but not. He waved goodbye, and the look on his face told me all. He thought I was fearfully buffering, an indoctrinated cult member bent on preserving her illusions, but for myself I had finally found something beyond the “I’s” that I could rely on.

The existential question became how to grasp the Fourth Way firmly with one hand and yet remain skeptical about the Fellowship’s leader on the other. Was it possible? It is important to understand this. My “verifications” of higher states gave me additional reason to buffer any contradictions I may have sensed in Robert’s being and behaviour. “Somehow, someway, it must be right,” I thought, because the states were right. And I knew, relative to presence, that something very good was occurring. I spent the years 85 – 89 reading every book on the Fourth Way that I could find. And from that vantage point, I could not find a way out of the Fellowship of Friends, for two main reasons that I can now see:
1) both Gurdjieff and even Ouspensky in their time, succumbed to various power, money or sex trips, so why be overly concerned about Robert?
2) the map of the Fourth Way is, in itself, an unnecessarily complicated and incomplete path relative to spiritual realization. (And I didn’t know that!!!)

So here’s the rub, and I hope you can listen well, every “verification” each of us makes, every state, every first, second or third line effort, every transformation of negative emotions, that causes a current member to reaffirm the validity of the Fellowship as a bona fide School has, in addition the personal truths revealed – whatever they may be – the hidden effect of supporting the illusion that Robert Burton is a good, sincere conscious being who is only interested in a member’s evolution. It just is not true.

He is interested in members, male’s members. And females with pocketbooks. And any and all who grant him power and dominion over them. Awakening to that uncomfortable truth is what this blog is about. So, if you find it personally necessary to continue to reaffirm your love and trust for Robert, fine, but be sure to go deeper, go beyond your own non-existence feature, your “surrender”, to find the source of love, life, and being which is the the core of who you truly are. No one can give it to you, and no one can take it away from you, either. “Someone” may be able to help you shovel off some accumulated dirt, but Robert secretly, covertly, replaces every shovelful you earnestly remove.

Dig that?

170. Mick Danger - August 16, 2008

Consider it Dug!
And now it’s time for another explanation from you-know-who:
“God is One. He is both father and mother in One. He is in everyone and in everything; but God is beyond this too. I well tell you about God in the Beyond state. In the Beyond state God is both God the father and God the mother simultaneously.
Now we will discuss the worldly father and mother. Suppose a couple has seven sons. It is natural for the father to love those sons who are useful to him, who are healthy, intelligent, billiant – obviously, the father will remain pleased with such sons. Now the six sons of this worldly father are healthy, strong, intelligent and good in all respects; the seventh son is a disabled weakling, innocent, simple and guileless. The father has no love for this seventh son and loves only his six sons. But the morther loves her seventh son the most because he is weak, sick, disabled, simple and guileless.
God is both the father and the mother in One.”

I hope this explains the whole gender thing.

171. ton - August 16, 2008

168
“In 1985 when Miles left the Fellowship…etc.”

ya, and i left in ’83… so many folks have left the followship and imho, although of “lower profile” many are more “noteworthy” or at least of higher character than the likes of miles. maybe this is simply meant as a point of reference for the poster, but name-dropping definitely does not impress, especially when talking about a tool like miles (more recently girard) who bought into and took full advantage of the idol-making fabrications surrounding his predicted ascension to the throne. what i remember and what i can still taste is all the garbage he served up as one of the main enablers for that parasite of a “teacher.” it still makes me sick.

on the positive side, at least he had enough sense to extricate himself and because of his imaginary “status” as an idol, others were able to follow his lead.

otherwise, re: the book recommendation… from the same, a nugget regarding materialism of a “spiritual” sort:

“the desire for spiritual growth is like every other desire… now we learn that our desire for mystical experience, spiritual wisdom or inner peace was the wish for another thing to possess.”

172. fofblogmoderator - August 16, 2008

#168 is newly moderated

173. nigel harris price - August 16, 2008

167 lauralupa

Something (not me – and certainly not in any of my efforts) ‘paved a smooth path’ through what would have normally been an ‘inanely stupidity-ridden’, full moon (coupled with my ‘high’ state). I think much of it is COMMUNICATION! A great amount of sensible and helpful posts from you guys (bloggers), true interraction in my tutor/facilitator -student craft workshop situation, and even with my ‘follicular technician’ (real men do not have stylists! – Come on ladies, LAUGH AT THAT ONE) about how she had to leave her last ‘job’ to set up on her own, because her former boss was not interested in ‘keeping her finger on the pulse’ of the business and moved to Cyprus on permanent holiday, letting her daughter run the business. Needless to say, the salon is now in liquidation! REB would have the same situation, were it not for the perpetuation of lies that keep FOFfers handing over piles of money for his fantasies.

But I really wanted to say that it is in true communication – the free-flow of ideas (even the role reversal in my tutor/student situation when a student reveals a wonderful solution that he/she has attained towards a problem) – the tide (ebb and flow) of intelligence, giving and taking, applying and verifying that all of you have helped me towards this new level. With gratitude…..Nigel.

174. Vena - August 16, 2008

From Daily Cardiac:

“It is also of note to mention that no one has ever lost any normal privileges by saying no to Robert’s requests for sex.”

Have a look at the letter from Wim P*t*rs posted somewhere on this blog. He tells how badly he was treated after stopping the sexual services to Robert.

175. brucelevy - August 16, 2008

FatBoy

Sorry about confusing you with he who shall not be mentioned.

176. Reality Check - August 16, 2008

What is being mislabeled as “higher states” in the context of the Fellowship of Friends is a sensation of weird excitement while in the condition of cult induced psychosis. There are “approximately 1500” current lunatics experiencing a condition of group madness and mass hypnosis and that is what keeps them in the cult. There are also some newly emerged ex-FOF members still erroneously confident that their experiences while under cult induced mental illness is something spiritually legitimate. “Higher consciousness” is such a long way from the lunatic mentality experienced in the Fellowship of Friends that those newly emerged from the cult, even if they are still interested in higher consciousness a decade after leaving, will have a very difficult time finding their way to the required starting point of normality before genuine “higher consciousness” is even a remote possibility. Here is a fact for consideration: no one experienced higher consciousness while in the confines of the lunatic atmosphere of the Fellowship, not even a little bit. Higher consciousness only occurs in the psychology of normal people and no one in the Fellowship is normal, neither is anyone normal who is freshly out of the Fellowship. Those in that cult and those newly escaped from it haven’t any inkling what normal means and certainly have no idea what higher consciousness is. Cult induced excitement while under an abnormal and corrupt state of mind is not higher consciousness and indeed higher consciousness is impossible under such conditions.

177. Reality Check - August 16, 2008

Don’t mistake naiveté for something innocent, because it is not something innocent rather it is something false.

178. lauralupa - August 16, 2008

dear vena,
please remember no names! steve, can you please delete the full name from post 174?

179. Old Fish in the Sea - August 16, 2008

Ellen,
I appreciate 125 and 168 very much.

‘ton,
you are right. Though we thought of ourselves as invidivual thinkers, many or most of us were at least partly prone to subconsciously ranking people according to their perceived being. The heirarchical nature of the Fellowship (e.g. who gets to sit up front, who is present, who is invited to dinner, who is a center director, who has the finer alchemy, who gets Robert’s attention, who has a more loving manner, who can best explain Robert, who can do the exercises etc.) created an atmosphere that fostered judgement – both of ourselves and of others. I know we tried to be free from that but at least speaking for myself, I don’t think we were as free as we thought.

I find relationships a little easier and more rewarding now that it is less relevant who has being and who does not, and there is more energy for accepting what is, which is the foundation for presence. Some would call this non-heirarchical viewpoint “tramp feature” but I find that rather than decreasing evaluation for people and events, it greatly increases it.

I often felt, particularly back in the late 70’s, that there was something wrong in Robert’s apparent intentional efforts to create a heirarchical viewpoint (some people deserved more than others). I know it is tricky to have an aim without a heirarchy which defines success and failure, but now I trust my original perceptions – Robert’s so called “descrimination of the king of hearts” often encouraged a heirarchical view of people and events that tended to hold students back from truly growing.

180. Another Name - August 16, 2008

Dear Ellen,

Thanks for your post and especially 169.

I do not read DC. I have an idea who he is, but I am not sure…..

Hug to you and all of you.

181. ton - August 16, 2008

177 or thereabouts:

although i agree with most of your post, i question the following “fact” :

“…Here is a fact for consideration: no one experienced higher consciousness while in the confines of the lunatic atmosphere of the Fellowship, not even a little bit. Higher consciousness only occurs in the psychology of normal people…”

i experienced what i consider moments of “higher consciousness” a couple of times while in the followship… in retrospect i see the few glimpses of truth as gifts, states of “grace” which occurred in spite of the brainwash and certainly not because of it. regarding “higher consciousness” as it relates to so-called “normal people” — i think there are more than a few folks on the planet who have the experience but can’t “translate” it and so end up in mental institutions or walking the streets as babbling “idiots.” (google meher baba’s work with the “masts” of india).

what is “normal” anyway?

182. Richard M. - August 16, 2008

Daily Cardiac:
One question for you. A simple yes or no will suffice as an answer.

Q. Each year during March, do you bleed Carolina Blue?

183. My4bits - August 16, 2008

Reality Check, post 176.

Guess you had your morning coffee, alright!

As one “freshly out of the Fellowship,” I can accept your points about the spiritually crippling effect of cult-induced mass hypnosis and psychosis. And I admit that I hope eventually to heal from this experience, and to achieve some degree of “normality.”

But I think you may take your argument a bit too far. Can you not allow for the possibility that some did experience genuine higher states — as did Ellen, as described in her post #169?

Ouspensky wrote of normality as being the starting point for true work on one’s self. He spoke of it in relation to concepts such as “balancing centers,” good householder, and so on. Guess the devil’s in the definition…

Normality — and by extrapolation, access to higher states — as so defined, should be accessible to anyone, whether or not they be under the influence of a cult. Certainly, we can now agree that normality is not a likely “product of school [cult] work.” It is, however, a rarity in any case, and is probably not a permanent condition.

Or, have you achieved a consistent, base-state of normality, RC? If so, I really would like to know more about it, and how to get there!

184. Vena - August 16, 2008

Lauralupa,
Sorry about that and thanks for the reminder. It seems that Steve caught it in time.

185. wingsspread - August 16, 2008

RCk 176
Do you think that you deserve more respect/credibility because you left the cult earlier than, for example, Ames, Lauralupa, Across the River, Ellen, Old Fish, sharon, steve, my4bits, and so on? And I guess less respect/credibility than for example, Former Student, ton, paulshabram, nigel, etc., who left before you. Or maybe you would assign a hierarchical number “man xx.xx” inversely based on how long someone stayed in the cult?

I feel intuitively that your post #176 is a lie, as in: you don’t know what you are talking about, and the post seems to have an agenda, seeking to debase some people for your own motives. I don’t see how you could have any insight into what members did, thought, said, experienced, especially after your own leaving in, I think you said somewhere, 1992 or thereabouts. You also don’t know if or how members might or might not have sought to effect change in themselves or in the FoF in the past few years, or what their journeys of understanding might have involved. You seem to be a pretty reclusive guy, so where do your observations come from? Do you personally know any of these lowly recent departees?

I do agree that recent escapees have some processing to go through. But I don’t think we can completely dismiss their credibility, and no one should be told that they will never make the grade – that reeks of “not this lifetime, dear.”

…and – what’s the naivete stuff about in #177? I don’t understand what the context is.

186. Reality Check - August 16, 2008

Here is some genuine esoteric teaching:

There is a vacant part of the brain that should be filled with common sense but due to five, ten, twenty, even thirty years in a psychotic cult the only thing there now are positively charged neurons ejaculating excitedly over any suggestion of the word “consciousness.” In a normal person this part of brain that is reserved for the development of common sense contains as many negatively charged neurons as there are positive, allowing for a more effective reasoning capacity. What they (the cult influenced) mistake for “consciousness” is the unanimous applause from the unbalanced portions of the mind that enjoy vacuous fairytales about being more awake than the average effective citizen while waiting for the end of the world or imagining itself suspended in cosmic consciousness. When the average effective citizens hear about such unfortunates and their abnormal beliefs they rightfully laugh out loud. How many average effective citizens paid a regular paycheck to the likes of Burton for up to three decades? Does anyone really imagine that there is no psychological penalty for such foolishness? Average effective citizens didn’t make this mistake because that one part of their brain was actually filled with something useful and this cult mistake was never even a possibility for them.

Here is some reasoning from the part of the brain usually vacant of negatively charged tissue in those under cult influences but is now recovered: why would people experiencing “cosmic consciousness,” “I Am That” consciousness, be wasting their time blogging about it? If I was experiencing significant levels of consciousness I might just get off the computer and go out and experience a real life where it would not matter to me whether others thought of me as “enlightened” or not. What is the motivation for blogging about cosmic consciousness other than simple vanity? I’m just guessing that the enlightened are not identified with whether others know anything about their states of consciousness and not allowing states of higher consciousness to become visible to others is likely the only sure sign that someone has it. What else besides the ego is so fascinated by the idea of consciousness that it becomes the subject of common chitchat?

187. brucelevy - August 16, 2008

185. wingsspread

You must not have had experience with Greg before. This what he does. He has to have an audience to see how smart and evolved he is. He wants followers. He only hears himself. Until something is said that pushes him over the edge, then you see the real Greg. He wants to be admired and respected as much as he admires and respects himself. It gets more and more bizarre. He’s been banned here several times, but it doesn’t matter he keeps coming back, waving his dick on the subway platform to whoever walks by.

188. My4bits - August 16, 2008

Oh, it’s Greg. Shoulda known.

189. wingsspread - August 16, 2008

RC 186 – I think I’d have to agree with your second paragraph, with some reservations, such as – maybe to help with one’s own understanding? Some folks get something out of bouncing ideas off each other, and this is their medium right now? But, yeah, we all display plenty of ego. A few are able to tone it down a bit.

190. Reality Check - August 16, 2008

187. brucelevy – August 16, 2008

You seem to have waving dicks on your mind far more often than is normal for any heterosexual man. What’s with you and waving dicks? You might want to do some therapy in that area.

191. My4bits - August 16, 2008

Greg’s posts:

There we have it. The most sociopathically abnormal posing as the most normal.

Greg’s ideal esoteric group would be a sado-masochistic, authoritarian power structure, with you-know-who as the Sadist-in-Chief.

192. ton - August 16, 2008

186 or thereabouts “rc” begins with:
“Here is some genuine esoteric teaching…” etc.

ya reckon?

187 or thereabouts, re: “rc” —

“….This is what he does. He has to have an audience to see how smart and evolved he is…. He only hears himself…. He wants to be admired and respected as much as he admires and respects himself. It gets more and more bizarre….”

a lot like ” he who shall not be named.” i think “greg” has some “decompressing” yet to undergo in order to “release” the cult experience…. (i used to scuba dive). it may not be entirely fair to compare him to dc (oops)… nevertheless, posts here and in the past resemble a sort of “recruitment campaign” — albeit for different “camps.” i wonder if this comparison will push him over the edge? i doubt it, he usually skips over my posts and doesn’t respond to me unless it’s to call me “tom.”

193. elena - August 16, 2008

Thanks Whalerider, Draco and all for your posts.

I agree with wingspread Greg. When you get into the “Absolutes” like in this one we start loosing you. It is a trivial issue, it does not matter to me whether you wish to give credit to anybody else’s experience but by doing so your isolation becomes deeper and no one can share with you because you don’t let us in.

You’re very welcome here in this land of the all confused and of little credibility.

194. ton - August 16, 2008

193 or thereabouts:

“You’re very welcome here in this land of the all confused and of little credibility.”

i agree with you in the first place and that all should be welcomed but my god woman, have self-respect.

195. elena - August 16, 2008

Wow, that was quick, between reading wingspread and answering him four other posts came ahead. If you don’t feel diminished by Greg’s posts, it does not matter what he says. Why would you feel diminished if you know your selves better?

196. elena - August 16, 2008

I hadn’t seen your post Ton when I sent in 195 but it fits your comment. Our self respect is not subject to Greg’s ideas on life or us and allowing him to express them without prompting him with insults when we already know his dificulties is much kinder than the opposite.

Bruce is already more insulting than he was, you take him down to a level that you know he can’t resist for long, where is your ego in all this?

197. Reality Check - August 16, 2008

The only “higher state” anyone ever had in the Fellowship of Friends resulted in the thought “I need to get out of here.” All the rest was imagination accelerated by delusion.

198. Can't we all get along? - August 16, 2008

For all the talk of oneness and connectedness on this blog, it seems like there’s sometimes a lack of tolerance for contributors who show a viewpoint not in line with the reader’s personal beliefs. Whether it be My4bits or Reality Check or whomever, speaking in absolutes and belittling other people will do nothing but turn people off and get us nowhere.

199. elena - August 16, 2008

All these preconceptions about Greg do not help us or him right now. He was not allowed to stay here so that all those who have things against him jump at him with the first insignificant flaw in his post.

And it is a fact that if it takes so much time to keep him out are you guys willing to do the moderating so that Steven doesn’t have to waste it keeping him out?

So we have a perfectly deranged guy just like Robert Burton from the Fellowship cult? He would not be the first one to be deranged and as long as he stays somewhat civil even though four and five of you are happy to take a pick at a situation that you already know is explosive like happy bullys in a playground, I’ll be happy to stand up for his rights to continue to use his freedom to speak here.

200. fofblogmoderator - August 16, 2008

#198 is newly moderated

201. My4bits - August 16, 2008

Poast 198.

I admit to spontaneous Greg-bashing. I’m willing to try to get along. I don’t have to read his posts, or respond. So, if I have difficulty feeling tolerant, I can simply avoid.

202. ton - August 16, 2008

196 & 198 or thereabouts, elena :

“…. self respect is not subject to Greg’s ideas on life or us and allowing him to express them without prompting him with insults when we already know his dificulties is much kinder than the opposite.”

Self-respect has only to do with YOUR OWN ideas. i think we can leave “greg” out of it.

the rest of your post i may not have understood….
if you’re inferring that i’ve insulted “greg” — it depends on interpretation…. particularly by “greg.” my post to “him” was not intended as an insult… and you don’t have to be “his” defender, although i respect your right to be.

203. Across the River - August 16, 2008

151 nigel

If you’ve ever gazed into the eyes of a newborn (before they kind of crumble up into a little mass of feeding, sleeping, pooping, etc), you have seen a glimpse of where they’ve been. It’s only a short window, but the connection is profound. That they are **here** is profound. **Newborn** becomes a relative term that can be applied throughout a lifetime! Indeed we should care for one another.

*********************

169 Ellen

I feel your post speaks to the heart of the matter. A treasure, thank you. For fence-sitters and maybe those even deeper in, it bears re-reading a few times if you know the value of your time. A costly understanding is handed to you in these words.

*********************

171 ton

Apologizing through this blog has helped me make amends. I never knew Miles, but who can say he wouldn’t welcome the same? Leaving is still a solitary decision, but much less so than it used to be.

*********************

186, 187, 190, 191, 192
Yet another pissing contest?

204. Reality Check - August 16, 2008

The talk about higher consciousness from people just out of the Fellowship, it is exactly as if decades long alcoholics got together after not having a drink for eight hours, or even two days, and started expressing admiration toward one another for being normal people. Normal is years away and consciousness is even further away.

205. ton - August 16, 2008

198 or thereabouts:

“can’t we all get along”

rodney king should have (at least) been awarded the nobel prize for these words….

206. My4bits - August 16, 2008

To the sound of strumming blues guitar and harmonica:

Walk on,
Walk on,
Yea, walk on.
I’m gonna keep on walkin’
Till I find my way back home.

207. ton - August 16, 2008

around 203…

“171 ton
Apologizing through this blog has helped me make amends.
I never knew Miles, but who can say he wouldn’t welcome the same? ”

and etc…

of course i can only speak for myself here…
as for making “amends” in this “format” (blogging)–
what we CAN do is think about the situation/experience and as the blind say: “we’ll” see how things turn out.” at least there is some acknowledgment / recognition here on the blog, whether or not that counts as “amends” i have to wonder at this point.

as for your reference to ‘miles’ —
i don’t doubt that he would “welcome the same” as you put it…

is he posting here?

and you write:

“186, 187, 190, 191, 192
Yet another pissing contest?”

that was not my intention…. maybe you lump-in remarks to “rc” here because i’m basically in agreement with some other posters….

(no pissing intended “greg” or “rc” or whoever you are).

208. Opus 111 - August 16, 2008

Here is some genuine esoteric advice for you RC:

Since you posit that time, any time in a cult such as FOF damages possibilities of being normal and experiencing significant levels of consciousness, why don’t you go and advise people who never spent time in a cult, those average effective citizens [who] didn’t make this mistake because that one part of their brain was actually filled with something useful and this cult mistake was never even a possibility for them.?

I am sure you could find a few where you live, right?

209. arthur - August 16, 2008

Excuse me for interrupting the flow of I’s, but I need to ask WHALERIDER something, and also LAURALUPA.

Whalerider, several pages back you gave instructions about extracting 100% of active “stuff” instead of 45%. If I remember the directions they were: Put the “stuff” in a sauce pan (dont remember how long) until it becomes hot (?). Then “mash” the “stuff” and sprinkle on buttered toast.

Have I got it about right?

Lauralupa, will your “amazonian” experience appear on Erowid?
An experience report from “Florance of Tuscany”? Just wondering. Hi, to you.

210. elena - August 17, 2008

Good to know Greg, surely you’ll share your consciousness with us since you must have a great deal of it to know things that clearly.
I’m dying to hear you tell us about it.

211. Reality Check - August 17, 2008

Opus 111 – August 16, 2008

“Here is some genuine esoteric advice for you RC:

…why don’t you go and advise people who never spent time in a cult…”

Since this is your idea and do seem excited about it why don’t you go do that? You go first since you have all the good ideas for others to follow. If I found such people interested in such things I’d likely try and apply their advice, providing it seemed intelligent, not the other way around.

All snideness aside, you do sound petty a considerable portion of the time and don’t think I don’t have a pretty good idea who you are.

212. ton - August 17, 2008

around 209 arthur,
the book “ayahuasca analogues” by Ott is a good resource if you’re interested these sorts of things… i happen to live on the east coast of north america where datura is the traditional plant used for native initiation ceremonies…. not that i recommend it, but you can find “accounts” on erowid.

laura, you’ll appreciate this…. it could be an anthem for followship
“xpats” in other words the greater fellowship:

p.s.
hope others enjoy it too”

“The king’s taken back the throne
The useless seed is sown
When they say they’re cutting off the phone
I’ll tell ’em you’re not home

No place to hide
You were fighting as a soldier on their side
You’re still a soldier in your mind
Though nothing’s on the line

You say it’s money that we need
As if we’re only mouths to feed
I know no matter what you say
There are some debts you’ll never pay

Working for the church
While your family dies
You take what they give you
And you keep it inside
Every spark of friendship and love
Will die without a home
Hear the soldier groan, “We’ll go at it alone”

I can taste the fear
Gonna lift me up and take me out of here
Don’t wanna fight, don’t wanna die
Just wanna hear you cry

Who’s gonna throw the very first stone?
Oh! Who’s gonna reset the bone?
Walking with your head in a sling
Wanna hear the soldier sing

Working for the Church
While my family dies
Your little baby sister’s
Gonna lose her mind
Every spark of friendship and love
Will die without a home
Hear the soldier groan, “We’ll go at it alone”

I can taste your fear
It’s gonna lift you up and take you out of here
And the bone shall never heal
I care not if you kneel

We can’t find you now
But they’re gonna get their money back somehow
And when you finally disappear
We’ll just say that you were never here

Been working for the church
While your life falls apart
Singing hallelujah with the fear in your heart
Every spark of friendship and love
Will die without a home
Hear the soldier groan, “We’ll go at it alone”
Hear the soldier groan, “We’ll go at it alone”

around 211 “rc” writes:

“All snideness aside, you do sound petty a considerable portion of the time and don’t think I don’t have a pretty good idea who you are.”

so what if you do?

213. brucelevy - August 17, 2008

211. Reality Check – August 17, 2008

“All snideness aside, you do sound petty a considerable portion of the time and don’t think I don’t have a pretty good idea who you are.”

I that some kind of veiled threat?

214. Reality Check - August 17, 2008

213. brucelevy – August 17, 2008

211. Reality Check – August 17, 2008

“All snideness aside, you do sound petty a considerable portion of the time and don’t think I don’t have a pretty good idea who you are.”

Is that some kind of veiled threat?

***

Not unless this person gives a damn what I think of their performance as a human being. Being anonymous lends itself to a kind of reckless “honesty” and a certain smugness. When the person is found out even privately it often brings out the courageous “conscience” in them and they suddenly disappear.

215. ton - August 17, 2008

211 “rc” writes: “… don’t think I don’t have a pretty good idea who you are.”

bruce around 213:

“Is that some kind of veiled threat?”

it struck me the same way…

216. veramente - August 17, 2008

113. Daily Cardiac –
WhaleRider –

I wrote my truth and you answered with yours; what could be more fair than that?
——————————–

DC, yours is a pretty cold response to WR.

217. Opus 111 - August 17, 2008

Is that some kind of veiled threat?

***

Not unless this person gives a damn what I think of their performance as a human being. Being anonymous lends itself to a kind of reckless “honesty” and a certain smugness. When the person is found out even privately it often brings out the courageous “conscience” in them and they suddenly disappear.

If it is not a veiled threat, it is the familiar attempt at intimidation and provocation. As far as the smugness goes, I would bow to your expertise. I have never met you so I know you have no clue about who I am, but it does not matter.

218. elena - August 17, 2008

I remember,

before my eyes and long before my mouth and even longer
before my ears could hear, my heart was beating

the wordless thoughts that I could not speak nor hear the noisiful meaning of words,

the day and the night
weaving my life
singing in light and shade
my memories.

I remember,
my eyes, my ears, my mouth…
precious delicate tools
how were you to know how much you’d have to work
before you could recover the initial truth?

I remember,
holding on to a chairs leg like to a mother….

lying in a huge white dessert next to my brother and sister’s bunk(?) bed.

hitting a lion from which water poured out in the arab fountain that broke the skin of my head and my godfather rushing to the hospital on my first birthday.

Being where they were not…
in the silence of the furniture that held our drama.

219. elena - August 17, 2008

Hey diddle diddle
the cat and the fiddle
the mouse ran over the moon……

220. brucelevy - August 17, 2008

199. elena – August 16, 2008

” All these preconceptions about Greg do not help us or him right now. He was not allowed to stay here so that all those who have things against him jump at him with the first insignificant flaw in his post. ”

Give me a fucking break.

Greg, why don’t you run of with Why Can’t We All Get Along. I think you’re made for each other.

Those in defense of Greg, you either are relatively new here, or you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

Enjoy each other, you deserve each other..

221. elena - August 17, 2008

Was just watching Good will hunting,
any of you guys seen it?

I suppose one would have to be a genious to be that crooked and be allowed in…
Otherwise let’s get back to the bar and do some more bashing no matter how boring and stupid it is.

Daily Cardiac, please come back and save us from the Greg episode, we’ll all rejoin right now! All except Ton!

Hey Ton, I thought we were friends, did I loose you already? Got too close on your screen? That’s too bad, just when I was looking for a camera!

222. ton - August 17, 2008

219
the cow jumped…

good night.

223. elena - August 17, 2008

It’s saturday evening and there are about a dozen bloggers that have nothing else to do than fuck around a computer including me. Maybe they should train it to do blow jobs so that by the time we start writing the testosterone is already out.

What the fuck, why don’t you guys smash each other’s brains out and get it over with? Is it a special contest in which the ladies then get to choose the winning macho? Too bad we won’t get to touch anything but the keys. Even Robert’s keys were less boring than these macho act and stomping out of the screen.

224. Daily Lobotomy - August 17, 2008

177, 186 Reality Check

Oh thank you thank you thank you! All true students of REB thank you for your brave contributions! OMG, REB couldn’t have made it any more clear than you have, RC. Are you sure you’re not still IN the FoF? I’m going to read these at the next meeting!! You’ve made my job so much easier, I’m sure REB will be pleased.

(Hey, you didn’t get these from Robert, did you? The tone is almost identical! Although you use bigger words. Hmmm.)

Love to ya!

225. Daily Lobotomy - August 17, 2008

168 WonderWhosWatching

How many ‘Hail Marys’ did you say you did?

Are you trying to confuse me, Wonder? You know I said I did SEQUENCES until I was dizzy and had to lie down, then I tried to do them lying down, and that lead to all that trouble when I wasn’t able to “be of service” to my beloved RED.

So take it easy on me.

Love to ya!

226. Susan Zannos - August 17, 2008

OK, here goes one of my fussy school-marmish posts. Sorry. DC is not someone with any command of language, which PI and several others do have in spite of their continuing delusional problems. DC does not, for example, know the difference between “infer” and “imply,” and regularly makes basic grammatical errors in pronoun agreement and suchlike. Do not mistake his pretentious language and specious logic for any genuine ability to express himself effectively in English.

227. nigel harris price - August 17, 2008

To ton and Reality Check, mainly…..

On the subject of Higher States, and why would someone, who is experiencing them frequently, bother to blog. For me, because of my ‘dopamine floods’ occuring due to my bipolar affective disorder, I would say that those ‘states’ are a ‘gift’. But I do think there is a vast difference in acknowledging one’s ‘warrior nobility’ (read in – experiencing William Blake’s ‘sword of illumination’) heritage as compared to wandering around my High Street, spouting “Once more unto the breach, dear friends” (Henry V), or being in my local pub, proclaiming, “There can be ONLY ONE” (Highlander). Be assured that, if you came to the FOF, wanting access to Higher States, you may have asked for something more difficult or dangerous to handle than you may have imagined. Being nice to others or ‘being in the King of Hearts’ just does not ‘cut it’. Sorry to put you off, but maybe I am impelling you to look further. Either way, enjoy the quest and nourish your being alive…..Nigel.

228. David Darby - August 17, 2008

I am suprised that those of you who post regularly on the blog don’t just ignore Greg(I.e. RC or whatever name he appears under).?? If you do, he will post frenetically( and provocatively) for a while, and then implode. There is a popular saying on internet discussions;”Don’t feed the troll”….

229. Reality Check - August 17, 2008

228. David Darby – August 17, 2008

“I am surprised that those of you who post regularly on the blog don’t just ignore Greg(I.e. RC or whatever name he appears under).?? If you do, he will post frenetically( and provocatively) for a while, and then implode. There is a popular saying on internet discussions; ‘Don’t feed the troll’….”

The problem with this plan is that it requires a certain degree of non-identification to ignore someone saying provocative things that very well might contain a good deal of truth, and in order to develop a degree of non-identification it is necessary to remember yourself when you receive the unwelcome shock of hearing just what you do not want to hear. Many of the people replying to the blog have given up such things as self-remembering because they honestly believe they have achieved the superior condition of non-dualist cosmic consciousness whereas they ignore all the obvious mistakes they continuously make in life due to being thoroughly asleep and pretend that in the higher realm they are at one with the ultimate vibrations of the universe. For reinforcement of this delusion they chat about “world 3,” the “Absolute” and (don’t ever forget) “beyond” so that their imagination is dutifully supported by others muttering compliments, agreements and oh-you-don’t-say’s. It is really quite insane, at least as crazy as the FOF.

There is hardly anything more agonizing to an adult than having his understanding undermined by intelligent opposition, he examines the intruder for the least sign of a hoped for hoax.

230. Can't we all get along? - August 17, 2008

Good morning.

I think David had it right in his post #228. Why don’t those who don’t like Reality Check’s opinions just skip them? No one is forcing you to read them.

It seems to me that Reality Check states his opinions as if they were facts. They are not facts. They are just his opinions.

That’s just my opinion.

231. nigel harris price - August 17, 2008

218 elena

You poetry is dynamically evocative. If you ever put it in book form, please mail me a copy. Love…..Nigel.

232. Another Name - August 17, 2008

Yes dear friends, for me skipping posts has been a way to deal with this blog. It is very practical and helps me to use my time better.

Often when I react very fast to a post it has provoked my oppostional thinking and I wonder: “Who needs that”?

Enjoy your live and wishing you something that gives you fun.

233. lauralupa - August 17, 2008

arthur 209
thanks for asking, I will send you a message on the GF about my Swiss Amazonian experience.

ton 212
thanks! Arcade Fire + Eisenstein, interesting combination…
in fact Neon Bible’s visuals are strongly influenced by early 20th century aesthetics and silent films. I am not posting many links nowadays, since they always get stuck in moderation, which is a bummer, but you can find a video for Black Mirror on YouTube that looks like an old silent movie and has some wonderfully creepy imagery…

I know a time is coming
All words will lose their meaning
Please show me something that isn’t mine
But mine is the only kind that I relate to
Le miroir casse
The mirror casts mon reflet partout
Black Mirror, Black Mirror, Black Mirror

The black mirror knows no reflection
It knows not pride or vanity
It cares not about your dreams
It cares not for your pyramid schemes
Their names are never spoken
The curse is never broken…

234. lauralupa - August 17, 2008

… in fact, as an experiment you may play with reading it as symbolic of the FOF reality tunnel, beginning with the idea of different levels of man (the bottle label) and ending with six figures representing the Sequence…
now that’s even creepier!

235. lauralupa - August 17, 2008

Daily Lobotomy 225
“You know I said I did SEQUENCES until I was dizzy and had to lie down”…

actually, someone told me an apparently true story about a member who felt ill after doing too many sequences…
are you by any chance referring to that episode?

236. Truth teller - August 17, 2008

brucelevy your posts are revealing an aggressive, repulsive, violent, rude and ugly person.

The bottom line is that you are disgusting!!!

237. will coyote - August 17, 2008

I have a dream. That, one day, from all the posts will born a book: Sperimental 4° Way. Error that we have find. Do you know in history many stories, like Gnosticism, all the material we have is from people that went out maybe angry with the “school”. We know a lot of Yoga,Vipasana meditation etc., but for her secretiveness we Know very little of real or fake fouth way school.
A bad erperience is stillan experience and if you share with others is a gift of love.
This blog is a beginning, with a lot of (IMHO) not necessary post. If i am boring I think is better to go back to read , to search if i miss something or if what I know now make me different from before when i read or write a post. Yes, I have a “working” approach to this blog (because i have in me unanswered questions) : I just hope to share my dream with you.

238. Ellen - August 17, 2008

#171, ‘ton

I hear you. Sorry if my post came across as name dropping. I was attempting to speak about a psychological situation that occurred about 20+ years ago with as much objectivity as I could muster. It is now long ago, and many of the people who I used to think of as “knowing something that I don’t know”, have revealed themselves merely to be aspects of my own imagination.

But also with that post, I was trying to speak directly to Daily Cardiac in his own “higher state” and “verification” language. I have a deep sense of the operational FoF logic:
Higher state = verification of Influence C
verification of Influence C = verification of the Fellowship as a School
verification of School = Robert is a conscious being
Robert is a conscious being = behavioural carte blanche
verification of the Fellowship as a School = “hang on for dear life”
“hang on for dear life” = leaving is a triumph of the lower self

But to back up to that original higher state (which I’d guess most of us here have experienced in one form or another) is in itself totally fine and right, as it reveals the beginnings of an awakening process which is possible to realize – for those who are still drawn to it – in this lifetime.

Relative to your posts, I always try to give them my attention. I know your story to be one of the more tragic ones. And I have a deep respect for the man that you have become. If you left Renaissance in 1983, I arrived in 1982, so our paths barely crossed. But more importantly, our paths are still intertwined due to my friendship and affection for M. About one year ago, just when you began posting here, was also the time period when my husband and I showed up at M’s home at midnight with a flat tire. You remember the story (now deleted), I think?

So, when I post here, I keep people like you – and M – and whale rider, Richard M, Bruce, and countless others in mind and heart. My aim and interest is in dissolving the spiritual ignorance that got us into this situation in the first place. Because I really don’t think force and expletive-not-deleted-language will do it, in fact, I think it tends to create its opposite. That doesn’t mean that I think anyone here who expresses his or her anger is wrong, au contraire, it’s totally fine and necessary, but it just may not untie the Fellowship knot.

And that’s just my opinion. I am one voice amongst many. For myself, I enjoy listening to Zappa once again, and “I am moving to Montana soon”…

239. ton - August 17, 2008

ellen around 238
thanks for your (as always) thought-rich post and no need for apologies, but maybe i should offer one to you if i seemed overly harsh or critical of the “name-dropping.” i have a visceral response when certain subjects are mentioned here but my intention wasn’t a personal attack on you, rather, i think it’s important to recognize and dispel vestiges of the influence false-idols had (and still have) over us. Old Fish at around 179 gave one good account of the situation indicating how the hierarchical structure in the followship warped/warps possibilities for more humane relations… and etc.
i do appreciate your work and presence here on the blog…

ps
montana is a fine state to be in….
here are a few sublime musical moments accentuated by the mad-matrix that surrounds them…. kinda like the blog and life in general.

We are the other people
We are the other people
We are the other people
You’re the other people too
Found a way to get to you . . .

Do you think that I’m crazy?
Out of my mind?
Do you think that I creep in the night
And sleep in a phone booth?

Lemme take a minute & tell you my plan
Lemme take a minute & tell who I am
If it doesn’t show,
Think you better know
I’m another person

Do you think that my pants are too tight?
Do you think that I’m creepy?
Lemme take a minute & tell you my plan
Lemme take a minute & tell who I am
If it doesn’t show
Think you better know
I’m another person
Better look around before you say you don’t care
Shut your fuckin’ mouth about the length of my hair
How would you survive
If you were alive
Shitty little person?

We are the other people
We are the other people
We are the other people
You’re the other people too
Found a way to get to you

We are the other people
We are the other people
We are the other people
You’re the other people too
Found a way to get to you

Do you think that I love you . . .
Stupid & blind?
Do you think that I dream through the night
Of holding you near me?

Lemme take a minute & tell you my plan
Lemme take a minute & tell who I am
If it doesn’t show
Think you better know
I’m another person

240. nigel harris price - August 17, 2008

Hi Ellen
I think it was yourself who recommended looking at Adyashanti. Then this post should follow yours nicely and, perhaps, stop the argumentativeness of recent bloggers, who feel it is their right to offer an opinion as to the validity of Higher States, inasmuch as anyone can ‘work towards them’ or by ‘certain acts’, attain them. Rodney Collin said that we could raise the lightning conductor but that the state given was of Grace from Higher Beings. I hope this quote from A. helps:-

“Only when enlightenment occurs, do we realize that virtually everything we did, from getting out of bed to going to work to being in a relationship to pursing our pleasures and interests, was motivated by personal concern. In the absence of a separate self, there’s no personal motivation to do anything. Life just moves us. When personal motivation no longer drives us, then what’s left is our true nature, which naturally expresses itself on the human dimension as love or compassion. Not a compassion that we cultivate or practise because we’re supposed to, but a compassion that arises from our undivided state. If we undertake being a good, compassionate person as a personal identity, it just gets in the way of awakening”

Hope this helps us all…..Nigel.

241. brucelevy - August 17, 2008

236. Truth teller – August 17, 2008

brucelevy your posts are revealing an aggressive, repulsive, violent, rude and ugly person.

The bottom line is that you are disgusting!!!

Greg, you’re SO SO clever.

242. lauralupa - August 17, 2008

Fellowship nursery rhyme

Some students jump through hoops
Some run round and round in loops
Others are busily counting poops
Please join at least one of these groups…

243. arthur - August 17, 2008

Lauralupa 242,

and when you do join one of the groups you are in Robert Earline Burton’s COOP. The sly-fox (not man) guards his chicks quite well.

244. arthur - August 17, 2008

ton (212),

Thanks for the “Ayahuasca Analogues” recommendation (the book that is). Right now my interests is mainly (queen of diamonds).

Whereas my “queen” has practically died in regards to “higher consciousness, C influence, enlightenment, bison poops and all that sort of thing.

Miles photograph me as a “jack of clubs”. A plant among plants. O.K. by me.

245. elena - August 17, 2008

Truth Teller and Greg, 229,

Do you ever do anything besides belittle the rest of the world?
Seing the dark side is a talent but a curse if that is the only side you can see.
Are you doubly cursed?

246. lauralupa - August 17, 2008

thanks arthur! revised version:

Some students jump through hoops
Some run round and round in loops
Others are busily counting poops
Please join at least one of these groups
We’ll give you a cozy spot in the coop.

more oopsy suggestions are welcome!
as you can guess I am at my computer trying to get some work done on this warm sunday afternoon, but I get so easily bored….
bad bad bad lower self

247. nigel harris price - August 17, 2008

246 lauralupa

I liked the ‘ditty’, it was oh! so pretty. Luckily I do not have to ‘earn my daily bread’ on the computer, but I thought you might like my poem about thing-not-anything-in-particular:-

Remembrance Revival

Opening “Thanksgiving” as it came to me,
Less scrap-shattered than when I had to toss it
Dusty behind ‘Enya’ and the ‘Celtic Hearts’:
Tapes and ear energy which only
Seemed to keep Leviathan rhythm
As the curved dark gave way
To sparkle-soft Joy again;
Reverberating cries of nights dream-punched
And 4 am route marches,
Because the body will not give
Up cracking mindful images.

Word-juggling was my forte
Until Michael stood to my right;
And the Belfast lady, (I heard five words
Enough to spot the love-steely face) on my left:
And there was warfare down.
Marines I knew and cadets,
Fidgeting impatience to the service-end;
And yet we all stood battle-thrown:-
“They grow not old as we who remain grow old”.

God of the human dismal sparkled redawn,
Come to us in this time of choked-
Possible remembrance and dignity;
Straining ourselves out of shambles,
Grinning out of bed-stuffed darkness.

(nhp) 2001

248. nigel harris price - August 17, 2008

245 elena

As to post 229, I think some people do not even want to ‘raise a lightning rod’! – demolishing their own and others’ possibilities and essential characteristics by ‘destructive drivel’…..Nigel.

249. Truth teller - August 17, 2008

brucelevy’s when God has allocated heart & mind to human beings you were the last one to receive it when supply was fairly short.

I do not know who Greg is. There are enough people who despise you around here.

Actually I am glad not to see creeps like you around. I thought you’re a creep long before you left, but I had the attitude of “what the heck, maybe something good can become of him.”

250. brucelevy - August 17, 2008

249. Truth teller

Cute. Keep talking. Give us some more truth.

251. spoonful - August 17, 2008

A Story:

After I had spent approximately one year or so at the community, I met the “Teacher” during lunch. The “Teacher” had just begun to spend more time out of seclusion and associate more with members of the community on a daily basis. At the time I met him, someone mentioned to him that I was a trained masseur. Within a week or two, the “Teacher” asked me to give him a massage. As he had been having problems with his shoulder. I was happy to help the spiritual leader and I agreed.

After a month or so, the “Teacher” requested that he not use a towel to cover himself during the
massage. Although his request was a little unusual, I didn’t suspect any ulterior motive for his request, and I agreed. Notably, when I mentioned this to a fellow student, he told me “you should keep him covered with a towel.” In hindsight, I believe he was warning me about the “Teachers” repeated sexual exploitation of young male community members. At the time, I believed I was safe as the “Teacher” purportedly lived under a vow of chastity.

After several months of giving “Teacher” massages, including full body massages, he requested that
both I and XXXXX give him a massage at the same time. Until this point, I had given him ordinary
massages with no sexual nuances whatsoever. This time, however, it changed. The “Teacher” was
downstairs in the bedroom on the floor. As I massaged the “Teacher’s” neck, to my great surprise. XXXXX began to sexually stimulate his penis, from erection to ejaculation.

Although I was shocked, I accepted the sexual stimulation during the massage “service” as a student as I had been taught. Service to the “Teacher” without thought for oneself was highly emphasized in the Teaching. Many community members talked about the “Teacher” being their “salvation.” The Teacher often told stories about the ideal of selfless service even where such selflessness appeared to be detrimental to a disciple’s personal salvation.

Soon thereafter, the “Teacher” again wanted a “massage.” XXXXX removed his clothing to massage the “Teacher.” I also removed my clothes at the “Teacher’s” request; I had become very passive to the “Teacher’s” instructions. XXXXX again sexually stimulated him to ejaculation. When the “Teacher” began to take my hand and place it on his genitals, I understood that he wanted me to provide “service” to him in that manner as well.

My “massage” routine with the “Teacher” thus became a regular massage followed by sexual
stimulation. At some point during the massage, the “Teacher” would take my hand and put it on his genitals and fondle him until he ejaculated. I came to accept that as part of my “service” to him. The “Teacher” repeatedly had me “massage” him, sometimes instructing me to remove my clothing.

After about six months of “massaging” the “Teacher” whenever he wanted, I ran out of money. I returned to Los Angeles for a couple of months to earn and save money as a masseur. While I was working in Los Angeles, the “Teacher” came down at times to visit. Whenever he was in Los Angeles, he would ask me to meet him and “massage” him. A “massage” almost always included sexual stimulation until the “Teacher” ejaculated.

I returned to the community for a brief period. I soon decided to move out of the community and into a house in San Franscisco. I was able to earn money as a masseur. While I was in San Franscisco, the Teacher visited me fairly frequent!y and asked to “massage” him.

At some Iater point while I was in San Francisco, the “Teacher” asked me if I would like him “inside me.” I acquiesced because I believed it was additional “service.” He also asked me once “which way do you prefer”” I understood him to ask which of the various methods of sexual stimulation that I had used with him did I prefer. I told him it didn”t matter since it was “for his pleasure, not mine. The addition of sexual intercourse, my interaction with the “Teacher” was strangely non-sexual. I believed that it was a privilege to provide “service” to him as the “master’s representative” and that sexual gratification was just one of the services. While we were together he would tell me to “tune into his consciousness,” meaning I should take advantage of my close contact with him and the spiritual benefits gained as a student. He thus minimized the physical aspect and emphasized the spiritual benefit I would gain. He also said to me at one point “don’t take this personally,” meaning the “services” I provided to him were only that.

He never looked at me or touched me in a sexual way, except for one incident. Although the “Teacher” didn’t react at the time to my comment that my “service” was for “his pleasure,” very soon thereafter, he massaged me to arouse me. When I responded to the stimulation. he then said “I thought you didn’t get any pleasure.” This was the only time he ever touched me beyond manipulating me for his own pleasure. During the entire time that we had sexual intercourse, I never once had an orgasm. For me, it was not a sexual experience but one of surrender of my preferences and “service” to the “Teacher.” At one point the “Teacher” even asked me if I thought he was “using” me.

I lived in San Francisco for approximately two years. While I was living in San Francisco. I became attracted to a student that I had known for years. We were romantically involved for about two years. Soon after I became involved, the “Teacher” stopped asking me for “massages”. I was aware while I was in San Francisco that he had also been spending time with XXXXX and I believed that he was also using this student for his sexual gratification.

A friend of mine said that he had talked to XXXXX who had told him about “many things.” I understood the language “many things” to refer to XXXXX”s and my sexual stimulation of the “Teacher” as part of our “service” to him. He asked me if it was true and said to me that if it was true, the community would be “blown apart.” I didn’t respond to him but later wrote him a letter admitting that probably what XXXXX had told him was true, e.g., that the “Teacher” had used us for sexual gratification.

Before I gave him letter, however, I naively (in hindsight) showed the letter to the “Teacher”. To my surprise,the “Teacher” immediately became agitated, with a shaking hand spilled wine on my letter and began talking to me in a very intense, loud voice. I was very shook up by his behavior.
Because there were other people in the room I had a hard time concentrating on our conversation. He suggested that we go to another room where there was some privacy and continue our talk. Once in private, his voice calmed and as we continued to talk he very calculatingly said, “you seduced me.” That statement was like a knife through my heart because I knew he was lying and I had never heard him lie before. I now understood that he didn’t want the truth about his sexual interaction with me and the other young men in the community to be made public. I also understood that if I told the truth, he would lie and accuse me of being the aggressor. Up until that point, I had not realized that what the “Teacher” had instructed me to do was “wrong” and that I was not supposed to talk to anyone, including my friend, about it.

At the time. I rationalized his behavior as conduct the “Teacher” felt was necessary in order to protect “his” community, that preservation of the community was the most important issue, no matter what lies about his own personal failings were required.

Several teachings also helped me to rationalize his lie and accept his behavior. “The Teacher” would often compare himself and others to a stained-glass window. He always prided himself on his very high “energy.” He thus told a story in which he explained that where there was not a lot of light or “energy,” a stained-glass window would not show very much of it’s colors, whether or good or bad.
Similarly, the “Teacher” said, a person whose life is very “dynamic” or “energized,” such as the “Teacher’s” own life, the good was very strong and the bad was very strong. I now realize that this “strong bad” theory was probably intended to smooth questions anyone might have regarding the “Teacher’s” “bad,” e.g., human, behavior or failings.

Because the “Teacher” reacted so negatively and I had reached the point where I could rationalize even his Iying about the sexual relations, I didn’t give my friend the letter that I had written. He also never really responded to his question and basically went along with the “Teacher’s” sweeping it under the rug.

About two years after the relationship with the student ended, I moved away from the community to San Francisco. I began attending school in San Francisco to finish an undergraduate science degree, began working part-time in a laboratory, and began preparing to leave the community altogether.

Even at that point. after I had made the decision to leave, a member of the community, came to me and tried to talk me out of leaving. During that conversation, he told me that I was making a mistake, that he was my “Teacher,” and my “salvation.” When I graduated however, I left the community as I intended.

******

Now for a confession: the above is a fake. I lifted the text from another person testifying after an encounter with a greedy “guru” (woman number 1 below). If you’re wondering which “master”, he lives a stone’s throw away in Nevada City (Ananda) – though I believe he’s since shacked up in Italy. Anyway, I took the liberty of changing where it said the “Swami” to the “Teacher” as well as changing the sex of the masseuse to a masseur. Otherwise, the rest is pretty much as written. The “Swami” (aka J.Donald Walters) digs young nubile women, just as Burton gets his rocks off on young, wide-eyed boys.

I’m sure any of you boys out there can relate to this – even if Walters seems to prefer being done to, while Burton prefers doing.

And girls, if you’ve ever fantasised what it might be like to have a straight teacher instead of a gay one, read the testimonies of these women. With a little imagination (oops, did I use that word) – “creative” imagination, you can put yourself in the driving / passenger seat.

http://www.anandainfo.com/woman_1.html
http://www.anandainfo.com/woman_2.html
http://www.anandainfo.com/woman_3.html
http://www.anandainfo.com/woman_4.html
http://www.anandainfo.com/woman_5.html
http://www.anandainfo.com/woman_6.html
http://www.anandainfo.com/woman_7.html
http://www.anandainfo.com/woman_8.html

In the spirit of the Olympics, perhaps Burton and Walters should go into partnership. They’re both getting on a bit, but it doesn’t seem to have prevented their desire of going for gold. Together they could service a wide variety of members – though I have a sneaky feeling I know who would win!

Otherwise be careful if someone in authority asks you for a back rub. Be very careful if they ask you to take your clothes off while doing it. And just to be safe, always carry a pack of tissues!

252. brucelevy - August 17, 2008

249. Truth teller

“There are enough people who despise you around here. ”

Well, I should hope so.

Oh, yeah…and you’ve hurt me to the quick.

253. lauralupa - August 17, 2008

“I thought you’re a creep long before you left”

Wow, Truth teller has been around! What year did you leave, Bruce?
How exciting! Another fine older student specimen to study…
Yes please Truth Teller, hang around and talk some more!

254. elena - August 17, 2008

Greg, you’re such a cheap liar, you’ve had a year of opportunities to tell these things to Bruce and are only doing it now that you have the opportunity to be here for a while?

Keep it up love, it’ll be a pleasure when you get banned again. I guess you are the kind of idiot that enjoys destruction. Destroy, destroy and are always feeling good about it.

Have you noticed you’re as bad as the Fellowship creeps who never answer my posts? Until one day they never write again because they’d rather hide than acknowledge?

I’ve heard you’re the kind of guy that goes around beating people up, I suppose that’s what you’re going to do here too? So hurry up and get it over with so that you can go back to chasing blogs where you can participate and ruin it, participate and ruin it because cheap freaks like you don’t know anything else but to ruin it for yourselves over and over again no matter how many chances you get.

255. elena - August 17, 2008

Greg,
It is also true that people in great pain will fight and fight to be acknowledged but they are so hurt and damaged that no amount of acknowledgement can ever reach them since they have lost the ability to acknowledge themselves. For all your talking about consciousness and higher states, you can’t even acknowledge yourself.

And you’ve lost the beauty.
For three percent of beauty you give us 97 percent of muck. Couldn’t you at least bring it up to five percent?

256. brucelevy - August 17, 2008

252. lauralupa

85

257. Reality Check - August 17, 2008

I’m not Truth teller, nor do I agree with TT’s opinion of Bruce. Though I do find Bruce annoyingly predictable at times, I am a supporter of Bruce in his opposition to the Fellowship which as Bruce understands better than myself is a criminal organization.

As for Elena, the girl has spirit and guts. The picketing of the gatehouse turned into a rout for the FOF and she deserves credit for her imaginative exploit. As for her opinions of me, keep them coming, nothing I like better than hot aggressive women directing their fire at me.

258. nigel harris price - August 17, 2008

I think the phrase used by the FOF is ‘descending octave’?!

259. Truth teller - August 17, 2008

elana,

I’m ain’t Greg, but who cares…

Only a cheap woman with a whore’s soul would publicly disclose intimate details on her husband’s sex life and on the next message state that he is the finest man and that you love him.

So much for human behavior.

260. brucelevy - August 17, 2008

258. Truth teller

“Only a cheap woman with a whore’s soul would publicly disclose intimate details on her husband’s sex life and on the next message state that he is the finest man and that you love him.”

One need only go back to “Graduates” early posts to find almost the same sentiment.

Of course GH might say that too when trapped in a moment of “lower self”.

261. My4bits - August 17, 2008

Daily Mood Alert.
http://moodalert.com/
17th -18th August 2008
Today’s alert number: 9 (on a scale of 10 max)

“Moods are still very much on edge with highly sensitive emotions that will be prone to extremes of experience. Indeed some will feel driven to the very edge of what they feel they can stand and not a few will find themselves at the point of crisis level. In addition to this problems will be magnified and solutions may seem hard to reach so that any difficulties may acquire an apparently insoluble dimension.

In many respects this will be a very delicate and emotional mood atmosphere so that feelings will be doubly sharp and penetrating to an extent not usually felt.”

More on the web site…

262. nigel harris price - August 17, 2008

260 My4bits

Hey, you do realize, if the FOF readers get their eyes and hands on that ‘moodalert, we are going to get a prediction from REB and a whole lot of blogs in the ‘I told you so’ tone…..Nigel.

263. waskathleenw - August 17, 2008

169. Ellen – August 16, 2008

Ellen, thank you for this. I agree with whoever said it’s worth a re-read (or two).

264. My4bits - August 17, 2008

Nigel, post 261.

Hi, Nigel. Don’t worry. I’m not reverting to FoF hocus-pocus. Just thought the snippet from the moodalert site might help break the momentum of increasingly negative posts starting around August 16th — what you called “a descending octave.” The proof’s in the pudding. (Is that an English saying?)

265. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 17, 2008

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/rmoss.htm

I found this guy pretty normal, but profound and interesting to listen to. Meow

266. Across the River - August 17, 2008

236, 249, 258

FINALLY someone here who not only Knows the Truth but is willing to Proclaim the Truth and validate it by Being the Truth teller.

We’ve all been waiting for you.

267. fofblogmoderator - August 17, 2008

Truth Teller- I allowed you in the blog even though your first post was a personal attack. The rules as set by Pavel state that personal attacks will not be allowed. If it persists you will be warned, and then if you continue you will be banned.

No one seems to mind Bruce’s name calling and use of profanity, including me. Pavel never threatened to ban Bruce and neither will I.

So far your words and your tone sound like something that’s not going to fit in here.

Consider this your warning.

268. elena - August 18, 2008

Truth Teller,

I still think you’re Greg and if you’re not it’ll make me happy that it’s not you who’s going to get the boot.

As Bruce said, you hurt me to the quick and it is great to realize that your cheap insults are nothing but that.

You must be a big macho whose masculinity is crumbling now that women give a dam about it and will not protect even their husbands from being exposed when they become sick abusers of other people’s naivete no matter how much they love them. Love is not about that but what would you know about love? You’re probably the kind that beats women up when they challenge you but you’ll see yourself being challenged more and more often in the next fifty years. Everything is going to change. What fun!

Since I still think you’re Greg probably as sick and divided as Robert, Girard and the rest inside, I was thinking about the three of you while taking a walk in the mountains and had the perception that while Robert and Girard’s pathology manifests in a way in which they cannot perceive people and their ego grows larger and larger as the play unfolds, in Greg the pathology is different. He hates the public but he also has no concern for himself. He has no standards, nothing to keep him above. When you look at this Greg, I hope you can consider it for your own healing. The way you act in relation to the public is the way you are in your most inner being. Third line and first line are strictly connected. Love yourself and you’ll love the public, care for people in an ample sense. If you can feel that the public won’t ban you, you might be able to overcome the rejection that other people in your play imposed on you. A community is a beautiful thing. We are all orphans. Not our families, nor our nations can embrace us any more, we need to embrace each other no matter what family or what nation we come from.

Steven, if you’re going to ban truth teller because of what he just said to me, don’t bother. I’m pretty sure he’s Greg and I’m very interested in sharing with Greg. If you all want to ban him because he’s bellow any acceptable standard, please go ahead but this cheap insults did not hurt me and I think it is good to look at it.

I continue to think that this is a form of community therapy and that if we can understand a little we’ll understand the power of it in a big way. The power to embrace each other and let each other allow for the horrors to express themselves without destroying us or the aggressor. We have Greg divided into the aggressor and one pretending to be kind. Good, so ban the aggresor and let the kind one stay knowing they are the same person or don’t bother to ban any of them, it is the same. It is good that people express these things and look at them for what they are.

In work with one’s self it is the same process. One must be able to look at the monsters inside of one’s self. Once, one has seen them for what they are, one can withdraw energy from them so that they stop manifesting. That requires will. We all have them and it is all right. It is part of the process of living and developing to deal with them.
Socially, a strong community can deal with people like this for some time if they are willing to help themselves. We don’t know, this is just an experiment.

So Greg, thank you for telling us what your opinion on my exposing Girard is. I personally am happy to have exposed him and that he will have time to consider the things I’ve said before it is too late for him. It is not about saving him, he’ll have to do that for himself, I just do what I have to do.

If you’re not Greg and either one of you cares about it enough you would prove the difference but I’m sure you won’t.

269. brucelevy - August 18, 2008

267. elena

Not wishing to minimize anything you said, but I was being facetious about being hurt to the quick. Personally, it didn’t bother me, it made me smile, it was so obvious and useless. But I do agree with your thesis of the divided Greg. It feels like another mind game. But what the hell.

270. Reality Check - August 18, 2008

I did not post under the name Truth teller nor do I know who that person is, nor am I in contact with that person. I don’t agree with their intention of causing you (Elena) emotional pain. I think they have a right to express their opinion in Bruce’s case and their expression was certainly no more offensive than Bruce’s attacks on others here. However, as we all know Bruce is a tough survivor of some pretty tough trauma and a bit of an edge is more than understandable.

I did express some doubt about your personal confessions concerning your private relationship with Girard and I still think it was not appropriate. However, the characterization that the poster “Truth teller” used against you was uncalled for. You are an honest and brave soul and do not deserve insults and for those insults I apologize to you for that person’s lack of good sense.

For what it is worth I repeat that I was not the one who attacked you and Bruce.

271. elena - August 18, 2008

Thanks Greg, I’ll take your word for it.
Bruce, I think I understood you were being facetious, so was I.

Truth Teller,
I think you have expressed something many people feel here and it is a good thing that its gotten out and I’ve had the opportunity to express what I think about it too.

Hopefully you can continue to talk without needing to be too aggresive. Your opinions are as welcome as anybody else’s. We do enjoy a little more sweetness in the tone even if the idea is the same but sometimes it is very difficult to control the tone, isn’t it?

272. elena - August 18, 2008

Steve, please forgive me for calling you Steven, I think of you as Steve but somehow have been writing Steven. My apologies.

Ah, and Bruce, Mr. Haven in fact loves me just as much as I love him and has never spoken to me in this cheap language for exposing him. That is the real tragedy. I hope that when he hears me calling him a frog about to jump out of his green suit he realizes that I see both the frog that turns into a prince and the slimy frog that rubs off Robert’s sickness to live on a role that demeanours his being.

We were together just a couple of weeks ago and I hope it is the last time. I need to let go and move on with my life if he really intends to stay there. I am in fact eager to love again… so be it.

273. fofblogmoderator - August 18, 2008

#251 is newly moderated

274. veramente - August 18, 2008

This morning I am thinking about the role of suffering in RB’s “school” and how he has exploited this concept to make us more obedient and accepting even of abuse.
Once I accepted suffering as a tool for personal evolution I just put up with almost anything, including having my boundaries trespassed.

275. nigel harris price - August 18, 2008

274 veramente

Suffering should only exist, in ‘school’ terms, for ‘parting the wheat from the chaff’. In other words, discovering what is in Essence in oneself (not necessarily by REBs standards) and being able to work on the diminishing of one’s Personality. This takes time, observation and patience. Rodney Collin used the analogy of the ‘husk’ of the ‘nut’ slowly losing its ‘hold’ on the ‘kernel’ and finally falling off in the ‘last blow’. He said that “…the student must work and the teacher must know”. I leave the above open to comment!?…..Nigel.

276. brucelevy - August 18, 2008

251. spoonful

Thanks for that.

They’re all the same, the holy scumbags. Greater than Christ, greater then Gandhi. The same horse shit in different robes.

277. brucelevy - August 18, 2008

I remember going to a bookstore to hear Walters talk about spirituality and his new book. All he did was talk about himself and how wonderful he was for an hour and a half.

I was actually interested in seeing if his cult dynamic was the same as RB’s, because at the time I was suspecting, from experience, that they were all basically the same.

He arrived at the store with his entourage. They all had “that smile” and pseudo humbleness act going. Walters and his crew all had something “turquoise” showing somewhere on their clothing, so you knew they were of the elect. He was a pompous, vain little man (lunar) and reminded me of Alfred E Newman, the same face. They’re all creeps, and we’re all incredibly gullible.

278. lauralupa - August 18, 2008

Thanks, Spoonful and Bruce. Interesting timing, too. Just a couple of weeks ago, an old girlfriend phoned me as she was passing through Florence on her way to a Karmic Astrology workshop at the Ananda center in Assisi.
She did complain that their prices are getting steeper…

I don’t want to imply that the whole Ananda community is corrupted, but with a teacher like that, I wouldn’t be surprised if they turn out to be at least slightly misguided.

It’s worth taking a look at Ananda’s take on the lawsuits.
From their point of view, of course, it’s a story of unjust persecution, noble endurance and final success for their guru:

The Lawsuits, and the Fight for Freedom

“No one escapes persecution, for God wants to be sure of His devotee. One has to be willing to suffer opposition for choosing the spiritual path over the ways of the world.”
Conversation #85 from Conversations with Yogananda

Throughout the 1980s, Ananda expanded to become a truly international organization. Swami Kriyananda and Ananda members were expressing Yogananda’s teachings in ever-new ways. Self-Realization Fellowship, to date the only large organization representing the guru, came to view Ananda’s expansion as a threat to what it considered its rightful property: Yogananda’s name, his teachings, and even the guru himself.

Thus, SRF launched a trademark and copyright lawsuit in 1990, intending to gain control over Yogananda’s teachings. Their aim was to do so by beating Ananda in court, or by crippling or destroying Ananda through debt incurred through having to defend itself legally.

In addition to an attempt at religious monopoly, the lawsuit also represented a personal attack against Swami Kriyananda. In A Place Called Ananda, Kriyananda wrote that Daya Mata, the President of SRF, had once observed, “It isn’t the good people of Ananda I have anything against. It’s Kriyananda.”

Kriyananda’s response to the persecution by his fellow disciples is summed up by his words in A Place Called Ananda:

“I was simply happier, giving love, than I could possibly be in withdrawing it. Were I to stop loving now, merely because I’d been rejected, I would only lose twice!”
SRF’s claims in the lawsuit included exclusive rights to Yogananda’s name, likeness, and voice. They also went as far as to claim exclusive rights to the Hindu term “Self-Realization,” used to describe the essence of Sanaatan Dharma, the religion practiced by Hindus over untold centuries. The sheer weight of the financial burden necessary to defend Ananda was staggering. While SRF hired lawyers from one of the largest law firms in the world, Ananda could only afford, in the beginning, one sole practitioner!

High spiritual principles were at stake, however: religious freedom, and the right of disciples to serve their guru publicly. Swami Kriyananda, and the fellow members of Ananda could not back down in the face of this challenge.

Tests and Trials

Ananda’s “legal team” consisting of Kriyananda, the above-mentioned sole practitioner Jon Parsons, and the ten-person advisory group comprised of Ananda devotees, put in long hours over the 12-year litigation course. Practicing adherence to the highest truth above all, Ananda was awarded point after point by the court. SRF, in their continuing attempt to gain control of Yogananda’s teachings, resorted to countless appeals. Among other things, they were claiming that:

Yogananda wrote all his books as a paid employee of SRF, and under their full control.
All his books were written by committee efforts, rather by his own.
In 1994 a second lawsuit was filed by a former member of Ananda with connections to SRF. In time, this suit became a personal attack against Swami Kriyananda, complete with claims that Ananda was a “power-hungry cult,” and that Kriyananda was a man without moral scruples. This lawsuit is covered in greater depth in Faith Is My Armor: The Life of Swami Kriyananda, by Devi Novak, one of the Spiritual Directors of Ananda. In it, she wrote that the lead opposing lawyer, himself a long-time SRF member, shouted at one of Ananda’s ministers, “You can tell your Swami I’m going to destroy him!”

Unfortunately, our present times find people ready to believe that when people want to do something good, they must have an ulterior motive. In this second trial, the jury eventually decided against Ananda and Swami Kriyananda.

Both of these trials, with their combined weight of financial burden, proved a hardy forge for strengthening the faith and spiritual vigor of Ananda members, including, foremost, Swami Kriyananda. Devi Novak once remarked to him, “I don’t know if I have the strength to endure what you have had to go through in your lifetime.” He replied, “I didn’t know that I had the strength. But faith is my armor.”

Victory at Last

“I felt inwardly free all through this process. My constant prayer was, ‘Divine Mother, they can take everything away from me, but they can never take away my only treasure: my love for You.’”
from Faith Is My Armor: The Life of Swami Kriyananda
By the conclusion of the lawsuit in 2002, Ananda had won over 95% of the copyright case filed by SRF 12 years earlier. By doing so, Ananda had established a vital historical and legal precedent for religious freedom. Despite the continuing challenge of servicing the debt incurred during the years of litigation, Ananda’s work has flourished worldwide, founding new communities and building a new temple in Assisi, Italy.

Even during the years of the lawsuits, Swami Kriyananda never stopped sharing with others the joy he was feeling inside. Writing, teaching, and , in 1997, leading a singing tour to raise money for earthquake victims, he continually labored to give help to those who were receptive. He knew that an outpouring of positive energy was Ananda’s best defense, and its biggest tool for survival, for generosity itself attracts success in time.

Only one year after the end of the lawsuits, Kriyananda returned to India to finish the work he had started many years ago. He has met with incredible success.

Success and Joy

Now, living in Gurgaon, near Delhi, over the age of 80, Swami Kriyananda works harder than ever, to establish his guru’s work in India. Recently he completed The Essence of the Bhagavad Gita, a book based on Yogananda’s explanation of the Bhagavad Gita, as well as Revelations of Christ, which contains Yogananda’s explanations of Christ’s teachings.

In India, Swami Kriyananda has made a tremendous impact. Within the first year of his arrival, his television show “The Way of Awakening” was being broadcast to an audience of millions. Now frequently when he goes out, strangers thank him for his program. More recently, his articles have also regularly appeared in the India Times, the largest English newspaper in India.

Kriyananda’s talks regularly fill halls to overflowing – reminiscent of Yogananda’s first years in America! A talk he gave at Siri Fort in India drew 2,000 people.

Visitors also describe his spiritual state as possessing a profound depth and magnetism. God’s joy seems to overflow from within him, touching all he meets.

All of this – in fact, everything he has ever achieved – he lays at the feet of his guru, Yogananda.

Final Chapter

Yogananda once told Swami Kriyananda, “God won’t come to you until the end of life. Death itself will be the final sacrifice you’ll have to make.”

Now, 60 years later, he is working harder than ever to help others seek God. In 2006, 2007, and 2008, he traveled to Italy and America during the spring and summer, launching new books and giving talks.

In 2006, because of his service to the spiritual future of humanity, Kriyananda was nominated to membership of the prestigious Club of Budapest, joining such world-renowned figures as the Dalai Lama, Desmond Tutu, Mikhail Gorbachev, and Jane Goodall, among others.

In 2007, during a visit to Rome, he was honored with the Julius Caesar Medal. Equivalent to the “keys to the city of Rome,” it represents the highest award given to heads of State.

As Kriyananda himself has said:

“I’ve had two desires in life. The first is to find God; the second is to help others to find Him.”
Acting as a channel for his guru (in turn a perfect channel of God), he has inspired many souls, and will continue to inspire them far into the future.

279. lauralupa - August 18, 2008

sorry, I can’t resist
what a dweeb! he sure knows how to smile…

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SH_R-rGtz1Q

280. ton - August 18, 2008

nigel 275
“Rodney Collin used the analogy of the ‘husk’ of the ‘nut’ slowly losing its ‘hold’ on the ‘kernel’ and finally falling off in the ‘last blow’. He said that “…the student must work and the teacher must know”.

the “teacher” of the followship misunderstands and misinterprets the metaphor of the “nut” and knowing when to “blow.”

281. Reality Check - August 18, 2008

What we have learned so far as regards our experiences of consciousness relative to the Fellowship of Friends:

The only state possible in a “school” where the teacher is a maniacal lunatic is lunacy because the only people such an organization will attract are lunatics. If you were in the Fellowship of Friends you did not experience higher states of consciousness but rather you simply experienced variations of madness and pretended that it was something wonderful. Even now in order to futilely retrieve it’s imaginary since of importance your ego argues with the only rational explanation and insists that you of all people were somehow different, that you were the only sane member of an organization based on insanity and saturated with obsession. You imagine to yourself that you did not waste half your life (or at least a good portion of it) believing the false reality created in the participants by a leader that is following the delusions of his broken mind. You still insist that somehow you were different, that not only were you one of the very few normal people hiding in the madhouse, but you were even conscious some of the time. This only proves how crazy you still are.

What is being mislabeled as “higher states” in the context of the Fellowship of Friends is a sensation of weird excitement while in the condition of cult induced psychosis. There are “approximately 1500” current lunatics experiencing a condition of group madness and mass hypnosis and that is what keeps them in the cult. There are also some newly emerged ex-FOF members still erroneously confident that their experiences while under cult induced mental illness is something spiritually legitimate. “Higher consciousness” is such a long way from the lunatic mentality experienced in the Fellowship of Friends that those newly emerged from the cult, even if they are still interested in higher consciousness a decade after leaving, will have a very difficult time finding their way to the required starting point of normality before genuine “higher consciousness” is even a remote possibility. Here is a fact for consideration: no one experienced higher consciousness while in the confines of the lunatic atmosphere of the Fellowship, not even a little bit. Higher consciousness only occurs in the psychology of normal people and no one in the Fellowship is normal, neither is anyone normal who is freshly out of the Fellowship. Those in that cult and those newly escaped from it haven’t any inkling what normal means and certainly have no idea what higher consciousness is. Cult induced excitement while under an abnormal and corrupt state of mind is not higher consciousness and indeed higher consciousness is impossible under such conditions.

Here is some genuine esoteric teaching:

There is a vacant part of the brain that should be filled with common sense but due to five, ten, twenty, even thirty years in a psychotic cult the only thing there now are positively charged neurons ejaculating excitedly over any suggestion of the word “consciousness.” In a normal person this part of brain that is reserved for the development of common sense contains as many negatively charged neurons as there are positive, allowing for a more effective reasoning capacity. What they (the cult influenced) mistake for “consciousness” is the unanimous applause from the unbalanced portions of the mind that enjoy vacuous fairytales about being more awake than the average effective citizen while waiting for the end of the world or imagining itself suspended in cosmic consciousness. When the average effective citizens hear about such unfortunates and their abnormal beliefs they rightfully laugh out loud. How many average effective citizens paid a regular paycheck to the likes of Burton for up to three decades? Does anyone really imagine that there is no psychological penalty for such foolishness? Average effective citizens didn’t make this mistake because that one part of their brain was actually filled with something useful and this cult mistake was never even a possibility for them.

Here is some reasoning from the part of the brain usually vacant of negatively charged tissue in those under cult influences but is now recovered: why would people experiencing “cosmic consciousness,” “I Am That” consciousness, be wasting their time blogging about it? If I was experiencing significant levels of consciousness I might just get off the computer and go out and experience a real life where it would not matter to me whether others thought of me as “enlightened” or not. What is the motivation for blogging about cosmic consciousness other than simple vanity? I’m just guessing that the enlightened are not identified with whether others know anything about their states of consciousness and not allowing states of higher consciousness to become visible to others is likely the only sure sign that someone has it. What else besides the ego is so fascinated by the idea of consciousness that it becomes the subject of common chitchat?

The only “higher state” anyone ever had in the Fellowship of Friends resulted in the thought “I need to get out of here.” All the rest was imagination accelerated by delusion.

The talk about higher consciousness from people just out of the Fellowship, it is exactly as if decades long alcoholics got together after not having a drink for eight hours, or two days, and started expressing admiration toward one another for being normal people. Normal is years away and consciousness is even further away.

228. David Darby – August 17, 2008

“I am surprised that those of you who post regularly on the blog don’t just ignore Greg. If you do, he will post frenetically( and provocatively) for a while, and then implode.

The problem with this plan is that it requires a certain degree of non-identification to ignore someone saying provocative things that very well might contain a good deal of truth, and in order to develop a degree of non-identification it is necessary to remember yourself when you receive the unwelcome shock of hearing just what you do not want to hear. Many of the people replying to the blog have given up such things as self-remembering because they honestly believe they have achieved the superior condition of non-dualist cosmic consciousness whereas they ignore all the obvious mistakes they continuously make in life due to being thoroughly asleep and pretend that in the higher realm they are at one with the ultimate vibrations of the universe. For reinforcement of this delusion they chat about “world 3,” the “Absolute” and (don’t ever forget) “beyond” so that their imagination is dutifully supported by others muttering compliments, agreements and oh-you-don’t-say’s. It is really quite insane, at least as crazy as the FOF.

There is hardly anything more agonizing to an adult than having his understanding undermined by intelligent opposition, he examines the intruder for the least sign of a hoped for hoax.

There is no “presence” in or surrounding an organization where the “teacher” is sexually abusing the membership, robbing them of their money and muttering insanity about the end of the world. The only “consciousness” possible under such circumstances is actually little more than concentrated states of lunatic. There is something wrong with the people concentrated in such an organization and they are incapable of experiencing higher consciousness. A psychotic school is only going to attract borderline psychotics and the followers of a psychopath simply mistake their own borderline psychosis for something extraordinary.

Does everyone understand the facts now? Are there still any unfortunate ex-Fellowship lunatics that think they are somehow enjoying cosmic consciousness?

282. brucelevy - August 18, 2008

278. lauralupa

After Walters lost the sex lawsuit he escaped “persecution” by going to Italy. The fine was around 1 million and was paid by the school and students, not Walters, to my understanding.

283. nigel harris price - August 18, 2008

280 Reality Check

“I’ve been mad for f*****g years, absolutely f*****g years. I know I’ve been mad, like the rest of us have…” Pink Floyd ‘Dark Side of the Moon’.

“We must allow Divine Madness to take a hold of us now, before Hell freezes over” Rodney Collin ‘Theory of Conscious Harmony’.

“Nigel is OK for most of the time, but now and again, the cheese slips off his cracker” An ex-friend of mine.

Reality Check…please absorb and digest these before offering something more sensible, and enriching to others, than your last post. And maybe some of your own ‘higher state’ experiences would help…..Nigel.

284. fofblogmoderator - August 18, 2008

#279 is newly moderated

285. lauralupa - August 18, 2008

Bruce 281
Have you noticed that there is no mention of the sex issue in the Ananda website version of the story?
just a vague “In time, this suit became a personal attack against Swami Kriyananda, complete with claims that Ananda was a “power-hungry cult,” and that Kriyananda was a man without moral scruples.”

Some words from the guru’s mouth from the online version of the book “Faith Is My Armor – The Life of Swami Kriyananda” by Devi Novak:

“I realized that a lifelong delusion was being lifted from me. Somehow I had never been able to shake the thought that there was something sweet, tender, and supportive in feminine nature that differentiated women from men. Through the trial, as I became aware of the depths of viciousness and vindictiveness that can exist in women’s hearts, I realized that all human beings are only expressions of currents flowing through the skies of infinite consciousness.
“Thoughts, as our Master put it in his autobiography, ‘are universally and not individually rooted.’ They blow through us like winds; we cannot create them; we can only manifest them. Men and women manifest various mental traits, but they themselves cannot define any of them. Women are not to be blamed. Neither, on the other hand, are they to be seen as special manifestations of divine sweetness. All human beings manifest the same basic human weakness: ego-centeredness. Thus, since those grim days, I have not felt the faintest stirring of attraction toward human love.”

When Swamiji saw that one of Ananda’s legal team was struggling over the injustice of it all, he said to her,

“It may seem enough, sometimes, to make one lose faith. Faith, however, in what? in human nature? That’s nothing but a bubble! What choice have we, moreover? Do we want to become like our opponents? I can’t imagine a worse fate! We must simply continue to love God and Guru. In that love alone lies our happiness. To spurn that love would be to spurn everything! We know that Master’s path works. It has worked for countless people. It has worked also for us! Those who are trying to destroy us are simply sacrificing their own attunement to Master. Until God is achieved, no one is safe from delusion. Understanding will come to us, in the end. Meanwhile, we must cling to God and Guru. In that way, we can find joy in ourselves no matter what happens.”

repeat with me: “Until God is achieved, no one is safe from delusion. Understanding will come to us, in the end. Meanwhile, we must cling to God and Guru.”
sounds vaguely familiar, does it not?

286. brucelevy - August 18, 2008

He is nauseating, as is RB and the other power drunk God’s in their own minds. Imagine either one of these jokes slobbering over your body. Fuck.

287. brucelevy - August 18, 2008

Of course they’re not going to mention the sex aspect. It’s called lie by omission (after the commission). Like AG claiming that the FOF never lost the lawsuits and no evidence came to light. No shame, no conscience. A “real school” of flying monkeys.

288. James Mclemore - August 18, 2008

One of the hallmarks of the ego seems to be that it becomes frightened if it hears that someone else may have found something that it has not. It has become inured to its own bondage and does not wish to hear of anyone else’s possible escape or plan of escape.
It will try to dishearten and discourage others and bring them down to its level under the guise of sincerety. There will sometimes be an almost energetic desperation in the voice. It will speak in absolutes, i.e “only” and “impossible”.

On a different note. Something I found this morning……

“We are all minotaurs,
lost in the sealed labyrinths of our brains.”

289. Richard M. - August 18, 2008

198. Can’t we all get along? – August 16, 2008

For all the talk of oneness and connectedness on this blog, it seems like there’s sometimes a lack of tolerance for contributors who show a viewpoint not in line with the reader’s personal beliefs. Whether it be My4bits or Reality Check or whomever, speaking in absolutes and belittling other people will do nothing but turn people off and get us nowhere.
___________________
Where exactly are “we” trying to get? Where did anyone speak of oneness on the blog and what would that signify and accomplish if achieved?

As has been said here recently, I think many of those who have left FOF within the last year or two have not yet escaped from the over-polite group think that is so mind-numbing within the FOF and OH community.

Personally, I now realize that I was much too tolerant and nice to the many assholes who, as center directors, donation collectors, octave leaders, etc., strutted around the barnyard, crowing at the sunrise, under the delusion that they were serving a higher power.

Yes, I guess it was because I was one of them. It does take a while to let that place fall away.

As Neil Young wrote:
“Everybody knows this is nowhere.”

290. brucelevy - August 18, 2008

289. Richard M.

I’m with you.

291. nigel harris price - August 18, 2008

To continue from my last post and to add a quote:-

“And I have felt
A presence that disturbs me with the joy
Of elevated thoughts; a sense sublime
Of something far more deeply interfused,
Whose dwelling is the light of setting suns,
And the round ocean, and the living air,
And the blue sky, and in the mind of man –
A motion and a spirit that impels
All thinking things, all objects of all thought,
And rolls through all things.”

from William Wordsworth
‘Lines Written a Little Way above Tintern Abbey’.

Dear Reality Check – can we please rise above the bitchingly argumentative and share what WE HAVE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED?!
i.e. STOP denying that Higher States are possible!…..Nigel.

292. Can't we all get along? - August 18, 2008

#289

Hey Richard M, how about if I re-phrase my comment to be this:

It seems like there’s sometimes a lack of tolerance for contributors who show a viewpoint not in line with the reader’s personal beliefs.

That’s all I wanted to say.

293. Richard M. - August 18, 2008

Has our friend, Daily Cardiac has been “disappeared” from the blog by the FOF Junta? Let’s look again at the dirty little bits of logic in his last real post, 45/87 that may have caused this.
My annotations in [brackets].
________________________________________
Daily Cardiac wrote:

There are many ways to say no to the kind of sex Robert asks for [The church minister, Robert, asks members of his congregations for sex.] Robert’s role in sex is well documented [read the many accounts on this Blog, or accounts of the law suits]. He plays the female part with another male [The church minister likes to play catcher]. The other male is required to penetrate Robert which necessitates an erect penis [you heard it here!]. Generally speaking an erect penis is achieved by being aroused sexually. Arousal usually indicates a desire or ability to engage in sex [Brilliant observation Doctor Kinsey].

If I were a homosexual male [like Robert] being penetrated sexually by another male [everyone create a mental picture of this] I would not have cause to believe the partner [a congregation member] was being traumatized as the act of penetration would strongly suggest otherwise. I would be more inclined to believe the partner was being, at least to some degree, stimulated sexually. [Insinuates the justifying logic of the minister]
_____________________________

Yes, D.C. sure has a way with words and descriptive logic. Unfortunately, this paints a far too graphic picture for any student in the FOF to carry around in their head. It’s going to take quite a few sequences to clear the lower mind of this.

294. nigel harris price - August 18, 2008

292 Can’t we all get along?

Personally, I go along with Richard’s comments about how much ‘polite brown-tongeing’ there was in the FOF – then and, probably, now. If you have ever gone through any kind of higher education, and especially in today’s world, you will find there is much emphasis put on ‘critical analysis’ and ‘reflective thinking’. I think ALL OF US could bear CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM!…..Nigel.

295. nigel harris price - August 18, 2008

293

Yea – BE VACANT-BRAINED!…..Nigel.

296. Rear View Mirror - August 18, 2008

292: “It seems like there’s sometimes a lack of tolerance for contributors who show a viewpoint not in line with the reader’s personal beliefs.”

People can “tolerate” differing beliefs, but that doesn’t mean they’re required to sit quietly and listen to those beliefs without any objections and without any dissent.

I’m much more concerned about the “lack of tolerance” in the Fellowship of Friends. THAT lack of tolerance is partly what stifles any dissent, and partly what keeps the cult afloat.

Relative to that, there’s an enormous amount of tolerance here. Imagine a meeting in the FOF where even the most polite statement here on the blog is presented. There would be absolutely no tolerance for that. That’s a much more serious issue than a few f bombs on the blog.

297. Richard M. - August 18, 2008

#292

Agreed. But, all we have here is words. Some word-slingers prefer to shoot from the hip, while others like to take aim before firing. A strong, maybe coarse reaction does not always indicate intolerance.
The most dangerous form of intolerance is that which happens silently and leads to actions which cause real harm to another.

298. Reality Check - August 18, 2008

For those still in the Fellowship of Friends and (while they were still members) for those once in the Fellowship of Friends the agreed on authority over the subject of higher consciousness is/was Robert Earl Burton and according to Burton’s vision Girard Haven has been “conscious” for at least two decades now. All of Girard’s three ex-wives were long-time members of the Fellowship but have since left, would any one of them care to come forward and report that according to their observations Girard is indeed residing in higher states? I doubt any of them would report such an observation. We’ll see. Though not a definitive test of such a fact it would be an indication if at least someone agreed with Burton on the subject. The point of this exercise is to again make it clear to those ex-FOF people spouting about their “states of consciousness” that if their only instruction on such matters is the Fellowship then they need to be extremely cautious of their own observations on the subject. Obviously, based on Burton’s and Girard’s example, what is mistaken for consciousness in the Fellowship is something likely far removed from a clear view of reality.

299. Can't we all get along? - August 18, 2008

Rear View Mirror and Richard M,

I agree with you both regarding the lack of tolerance in the FOF.

I think my initial statement was generated from the side of me that has what the FOF calls “mechanical goodness”. I am always trying to find/create harmony in a situation and it seemed like there was a lot of name calling going on a couple of days ago.

I might be a new contributor here, but I’ve been reading the blog for a while and consider it to be a very useful environment for sharing ideas and sorting out all my years of indoctrination and blind obedience in the FOF.

300. nigel harris price - August 18, 2008

298 Reality Check

“I have a dream – a fantasy, to help me cope with reality…” Abba
‘I have a dream’…..Nigel.I

301. ton - August 18, 2008

298
“….about their “states of consciousness” if their only instruction on such matters is the Fellowship then they need to be extremely cautious of their own observations on the subject.”

a suggestion, with all due respect — quit trying to speak for everyone else and follow your own advice here.

302. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 18, 2008

Yesterday I saw a preview of a movie that will come out soon called Dalai Lama Renaissance. It’s a movie about some world renown healers/spiritual advisors/speakers, many of which are well known, who go to India together to try and discuss and work out world issues, including the Tibetan issue, with the Dalai Lama.

It turns out to be an interesting challenge and display of ‘why can’t we get along’ and answers for many of them why it’s so hard to change things.

I urge people to go see it. I was pleasantly surprised at the outcome.

303. fofblogmoderator - August 18, 2008

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