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Fellowship of Friends Discussion, part 43 August 6, 2008

Posted by Pavel in Uncategorized.
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Welcome to the newest addition to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion.

For previous parts of the discussion please click on home and scroll down, or move to the Fellowship of Friends Discussion blog, or to AnimamRecro for the very beginning. For a more organized reading check out The Fellowship of Friends WikiSpace.

The largest meeting point for former and current members of the Fellowship of Friends is the Greater Fellowship, you can sign up to the Greater Fellowship community and connect with mostly former members of the Fellowship of Friends, as well as: some current members, family members of former/current members, and others interested in the Fourth Way here.

For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.

For more information check Rick Ross and Steven Hassan.

This is where you can find the website of the Fellowship of Friends.

If you decide to interact as well as digest, this is where you can start.

And as always (and above else), enjoy and have fun.

Excessive abuse, personal attacks, as well as deliberate attempts to unmask people taking part in the discussion will result in a warning followed by a ban from the discussion.

Participants require 1 moderated comment before they can start communicating in real-time. (ie. if you are new to the discussion, your comment will appear about 1 day after it has been posted, any subsequent comments will appear instantaneously).

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Comments

1. Sjaman - August 6, 2008

In Gurdjieffs’ time the sequence was called the STOP exercise.

2. Daily Cardiac - August 6, 2008

To all of the individuals who responded in a familiar, and extreme, fashion to post 385 and previous ones by me and other current members:

I wonder what you all feel is being accomplished by ridiculing someone who is exercising the same right as all of you by writing here? If you feel you are harming me or that I’m taking it personal you are mistaken. I have seen this invective used against anyone who writes anything positive about the FoF (even ex-students like Walter T.) too much to take it seriously to heart.

The word sociopath is used so much it no longer carries any weight. We all know that there are more sociopaths per capita in Oregon House than in San Quentin.

In fact all one has to do to qualify as a sociopath is to say a nice thing or two about the Fellowship of Friends. Committing crimes is no longer a requirement.

Anyone with an open mind can see the dynamic involved. The only “purpose” I can see come of it is all of you get to vent a little. It’s just a little branding game going on; if you disparage something enough people will think, “Yes, this really must be bad if so many people say it is.” But anyone of average intelligence who is not obsessed with criticizing the FoF can see it for what it is.

But I can see the attractiveness in the fact that if you spend enough time lambasting someone you don’t actually have to try to meet the offending words with any kind of critical thinking.

I don’t think it serves your position well in the long run either. If the words of this blog are ever used in some kind of legal action and are read in court they won’t exactly sound like the words of victims, they won’t garner any sympathy; they’ll sound like just what they are – a group of embittered individuals whining away and fluffing up their collective chests.

Any novice psychologist would not have a problem seeing the classic abused/abuser syndrome at work. People who are abused or simply perceive themselves as being abused typically react by becoming an abuser.

The thinking is that their abuser did not respect their rights and did not offer them justice so they have the same right to turn the tables if the opportunity arises. So, now any student who comes to this blog and offers their honest thoughts is Robert Burton in their eyes and he/she is fair game to be abused in turn.

The only problem with this action is you will become the same thing that you despise.

3. brucelevy - August 6, 2008

1. Daily Cardiac

This post contains so many straw men it’s a fire hazard.

4. lauralupa - August 6, 2008

Hi to all you individuals!
I just finished reading page 42 and would like to thank everyone who contributed to the lively and thoughtful discussion.
I just came back from my first two encounters with grandmother ayahuasca. Now i understand from experience why unoanimo was enthusiastic about this extraordinary and powerful plant teacher!
Thanks to you uno, arthur and all the others who have encouraged me in this direction and made the voyage possible.
May love and trust dwell in our hearts
Namaste

“Everybody abstracts a different reality tunnel. We don’t know what is or what isn’t. All we know is what we tuned in or didn’t tune in.”
Robert Anton Wilson

5. ton - August 6, 2008

re: 1 cardiac

it’s the same old tune… “us” against “them,”
“us” against the world,
“us” against ourselves… etc.

welcome back laura

6. Another Name - August 6, 2008

From Daily Cardiac: The word sociopath is used so much it no longer carries any weight. We all know that there are more sociopaths per capita in Oregon House than in San Quentin.

Please explain how you got this information. We all know is formatory thinking/ to black and white. I really do not know that makes your statement not valid

Daily Cardiac, Please listen to your heart, the mind plays tricks, even Robert has said this on several occasions. What about your conscience. I am interested in your conscience. not in oppositional thinking.

I have verified when I meet people who irritates me or who evoke judgment, it is an art form to go deep inside of myself and see where this part is in me. Katie Byron, with turning it around, gave me a great tool, so simple. One of the lost changes for the fellowship of friends. Another practical tool and missed opportunity to be what you are in deep spiritual sense is ho’opono. If you can do this to Robert, the ones you meet daily, the one who is in front of you……the ones who are here on the blog…..

Words would really be a weak tea compared to energy we share deep inside. We would really focus on the quality of our thoughts and what we want to radiate.

Every action we take has a consequence in the future, just verify for your self. If you plant a seed in the soil and even forget to water it, it might be a big tree in several years. Even our thoughts in to in the ether. We all verified that when we think of somebody and they call us or send a sign of life.

ho’opono to all of you.

To refresh you memory: when you think of somebody or you feel irritated or concerned or….you repeat the words:
I love you
You are part of my world
And I forgive you.

Most of the time I end up after several repetiton with I love myself, forgive myself and I am part of my world.

And watch the change in emotional states.

Sssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

7. Mick Danger - August 6, 2008

“If you don’t have anything nice to say,
Come & sit next to me!” – Gertrude Stein

8. arthur - August 6, 2008

Lauralupa,

Now I’m covetous.

When I was in ICU with my hands tied to the bed-railing I tried to “connect” with a couple of fellow-traveling men (Russian & Italian) on GF but could’nt concentrate but a few seconds at a time. Praying to one of Robert Burton’s 44 never occured to me.

Nigel,

Who sang, “I still haven’t found what I’m looking for”? Was it U2? Should that be the Fellowship of Friends theme song?

Or this one, “And the years rolled slowly past
and I found myself alone
Surrounded by strangers I thought were my
friends (Fellowship)
I found myself further and further from my home
and I guess I lost my way
There were oh so many roads
I was living to run and running to live
Never worried about paying or even how much
I owed”. Bob Segar

Had this blog been available in 1977 I would have turned and ran. That in spades is this blog’s intent.

9. Rear View Mirror - August 6, 2008

Cardiac wrote: “Any novice psychologist would not have a problem seeing the classic abused/abuser syndrome at work. People who are abused or simply perceive themselves as being abused typically react by becoming an abuser.”

I sense you’re concerned that some of us will go off and start our own cult. Good point. I’m concerned about the same thing in regard to a few of the posters here.

Actually, psychologists may see just the opposite of what you describe. The abused often reacts by being in denial about their abuser. They emphasize how much they love their abuser and that they cannot leave their abuser. They emphasize how much they have learned from being around their abuser, and how much they enjoy their company. It’s often hard for the abused to break free. They hold themselves captive in a sense.

Cardiac, I see you as being a bit like a lawyer. You won’t say everything on your mind as this would hamper your goal to obfuscate. You won’t respond to everything said to you. You have a conscience, but you won’t let it get in the way when you make your argument. You have a job to do, or at least that’s how you see it.

C’mon. Be honest. You expected everyone here to nod quietly?

10. arthur - August 6, 2008

A month or two ago I read where California is allowing same-sex marriages.

At one time the rules enacted by Robert Burton included the no-sex out of wedlock.

Maybe Asaf or Dorian could be hearing wedding bells?

11. ton - August 6, 2008

8 RVM
“Loyalty to a more powerful abuser — in spite of the danger that this loyalty puts the victim in — is common among victims of domestic abuse, battered partners and child abuse (dependent children). In many instances the victims choose to remain loyal to their abuser, and choose not to leave him or her, even when they are offered a safe placement in foster homes or safe houses. This mental phenomenon is also known as Trauma-Bonding or Bonding-to-the-Perpetrator. This syndrome was described by psychoanalysts of the object relations theory school (see Fairbairn) as the phenomenon of psychological identification with the more powerful abuser. According to the psychoanalytic view of the syndrome, the tendency might well be the result of employing the strategy evolved by newborn babies to form an emotional attachment to the nearest powerful adult in order to maximize the probability that this adult will enable — at the very least — the survival of the child… This syndrome is considered a prime example for the defense mechanism of identification.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

12. whalerider - August 6, 2008

Welcome back Arthur!

Cardiac arrest:
Actually you fit the Stockholm syndrome…a psychological response sometimes seen in an abducted hostage, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger (or at least risk) in which he has been placed.

The first step is to admit you are powerless over your addiction to your cult and that you have let someone else manage your life…

13. whalerider - August 6, 2008

‘ton and Rear View Mirror:
Jeeze, that was weird.

Great minds do think alike.

14. waskathleenw - August 6, 2008

Ellen,

Thank you for the link in your post 440, previous page. I particularly appreciated this excerpt in relation to the “Gurdjieffian practice”:

“The emphasis it places on insight needs to be balanced, completed, and reconciled with the teaching of the life-current or spirit-energy as given by the adepts in the high-Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian traditions.”

I wouldn’t limit it to high-Hindu, Buddhist and Christian, and I’m not convinced that an adept is required, but a good point is made.

15. Traveler - August 6, 2008

Hey Daily Cardiac (43/1).

I finished reading your post a bit discouraged. I mean, I could see that there were people who responded to your post by ridiculing you and diagnosing you and venting their anger. And I can see how that would not be an easy thing for you to not speak up against. But I hope that the reason you have not responded to my post at 42/316 yet, is not because you have perceived it as yet another attempt to attack you and your way of thinking. My questions to you were in no way rhetorical, and my answers to you were sincere from my present understanding. I am one who is open to dialog, and yes, to meeting your words “with critical thinking”, which you say you have missed. And I would hope you would meet my words with critical thinking as well. What is disappointing to me is then that you would instead choose to focus on “invective” by providing more opposition to the opposition. Can you see where that leads? Is that what you really want? Have you already decided what ex-students are like? If yes, that’s okay. And if at any point you decide that dialog is what you want, I’m still here.

16. elena - August 6, 2008

Will Coyote,
Nicely put, welcome!

Opus 111
We’ve had that discussion before here. Again, I have not verified that there is any one homosexual in whom homosexuality is something you are born with.
2. There was never any fun in it for me, no matter how much I thought I wanted it.
3. It changes one psychologically and physically in an extremely weird way. For all the respect I have for travesties I would not ever wish to be in their shoes. Talented and wonderful as they may be.
4. In my case homosexuality was an emotional illness of which I am very glad to be free of to a certain extent. As an illness I do not judge anyone else for having it as I would not judge someone with hepatitis but I would encourage every homosexual to consider that possibility if they are suffering tremendously with it. If they are having great fun as I did for certain periods, don’t identify with it. But then, I would suggest the same thing to a heterosexual. Extreme identifications in love relationships whether with men or with women were the result of fixed patterns from childhood and parental relationships. Necessary processes that is wonderful to overcome.
5. Please conceive of the possibility that I have not a hair in my being against homosexuals or homosexuality, simply ideas on it like everybody else and over forty years of experience with it. They may not be of any value but it is good for me to express them.

Across the River,
Your arguments with me come from your own doubt and I much appreciate your trying to communicate. I’m not looking for followers or I would be charging for writing, it seems I can do it enough to make a living with it. The fact that I question you does not mean I consider myself better than you and I have said so repeatedly but you don’t seem to perceive it when I say it. I understand our situation from a definite position and so do you. I share my position in the hope that it’ll enhance yours and read you in the hope that it’ll enhance mine. I am not trying to force you to do anything different than what you’re doing, I am inviting you to consider other possibilities because I think they are of value. But if you don’t. no matter how disappointed I might be, I will never do anything against you for it.

This may be the wrong place for me to write but it is the place where I want to write and the people who I want to write to. Like any social writer it would be ridiculous for me to expect an immediate result and retribution and I am too often ridiculous. No matter the disadvantages I could not have written these things anywhere else. You may not value them but I know their value and it is my responsibility and joy to express them. The real things I’ve said here will outlive me for centuries as they are the same things of value that have outlived any human being who expressed them in the past. We are each bigger than our individuality, we are each a thread of a much longer tradition of human development. We have not lived or suffered in vain.

It has been wonderful for me to share things I’ve been wanting to share for over seventeen years, wonderful to hear you say things I’ve been wanting to hear for that same length of time and equally necessary for me to be both rejected and accepted. I’ve spent too many years of my life being afraid of being rejected and trying to do everything I can so that I am accepted by everyone. It was the main obstacle to leaving the FOF or any other institution but a wave cannot be surfed any other way but by cutting through it. Riding it is something else even if no less joyful. And then in this system it has been a tradition to dialogue. Mr. Burton thoroughly betrayed both that form and tradition and reinstated the monologue of a dictator. Accepting being rejected is an acceptance of our condition but like a dirt road with great obstacles, it does not mean it’ll stop us from getting where we are going.

The computer is needed so I have no time for corrections. So sorry.

17. Rear View Mirror - August 6, 2008

Hi Traveler,
(I deliberately use the word “hi” sometimes, because we were give that word as an “exercise” in the FOF… i.e., we developed the group-think habit of only use “hello.”)

Here’s my thinking on the topics you brought up in #14:

The word “anger” is overstating it in my opinion. Dissent, strong disagreement, and direct criticism are not necessarily anger — i.e., what the FOF calls “negativity.”

I don’t mean this as a criticism of you, because I definitely appreciate your presence on the blog. But this type of thinking is really what Burton wants from his followers. FOF followers are often concerned that their criticisms or dissent will be construed as “negativity” or weakness, or anger. If you “inner consider” that possibility, the best thing is just to keep your mouth closed, or at least to be careful who you share your thoughts with.

To keep a cult going, the above line of thinking is crucial.

I sense a bit that you’re trying to help Daily Cardiac? I don’t know; just a sense. That’s not a bad thing; but I just wonder if Cardiac is really looking for that, or open to that. I’d like to believe so, but I’m a skeptic until I see him say something that indicates an openness to even the mildest criticisms of Burton and the cult.

I’m looking for help myself. That’s partly why I’m here. I experienced many positive things in the FOF for a period of many years, but more often I experienced negative things and justified that based on the “need to suffer” for “my work.” This morning on the radio, I heard some music that reminded me of my time there. And then I started thinking — did it really remind me of the FOF? Or did it remind me of something within myself? Did it remind me of my friends? I often think the most beautiful experiences we had in the FOF were drawn out of ourselves and from a few of our closest friends — not so much from the FOF itself. And we had those experiences only in spite of it, not because of it.

18. paulshabram - August 6, 2008

Bruce #2, Traveler #14, and RVM #16
W.R.T D. Cardiac’s “logical” arguments:

I suppose that in an atmosphere of no open discussion and no dissent, the ability to make reasoned, cogent, on-point logical arguments can atrophy. Bruce’s comment about “straw men” is on point.
A typical sophomoric approach is to make the arguments using “facts” that are only marginally related to the point, but sound good. It is the classic case of using a fallacious argument. They sound kinda right, especially to believers. The approach is to take a posture that if the listener doesn’t see the connection then the listener is either too stupid or not listening. Is Cardiac a sociopath? I don’t know, but I would hope not. He/she, however uses the style of a sociopath manipulative argument. The poor quality of the arguments, i.e. the self contradictions and never addressing the key underlying assumptions suggests more regurgitation than original generation. Look at the way a true sociopath does it:

Realize that this guy is now saying that the islamic Messiah, Iman Mahdi, with return within the next two years (and guess who that will be) and draw the world into conflict followed by the end of the world. Sounds familiar.

19. brucelevy - August 6, 2008

17. paulshabram

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I couldn’t bring myself to put more into it. Either one sees/hears, or they don’t…perhaps one of the only valid “black and whites”, at least at this level.

20. Mick Danger - August 6, 2008

Come on people, just answer the question:
Why can’t Grampa Bobby get no lovin’?

21. paulshabram - August 6, 2008

Mickey D. 19

You can’t really get what you can’t really give.

22. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 6, 2008

On Adyashanti:

I’m not an Adyashanti fan however since he has called to so many people in the Fellowship I decided to listen to see what he was all about.

So for the last 5 months twice a month I’ve been listening to his videos. It took me awhile to understand his style, because I was not used to it and it certainly didn’t call to me. However, I have started to understand him after watching perhaps 10 videos and the last few have actually inspired me.

He certainly is a man who seems very unpretentious and I think that really calls to many after being in a hoity toity club for so long. And like many speakers nowadays he inspires people. I’m all for that.

To say he is damaging is kind of a silly statement as he basically just points out to people the inconsistences and false thinking within them. He also leaves it up to the individual for the most part to do the work themselves. He is not at all controlling or into telling someone what to do.

We are lucky to have people like this right now that don’t seem to be coming from selfish agendas and asking for ridiculous amounts of money to help us and although he’s not on the top of my list for what makes me MEOW he has helped many.

23. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 6, 2008

6 Mick

FYI, Alice Roosevelt.

15 elena

No one here has “rejected” you. Cool the melodrama. Several people have called you on your bloviating and self-absorption. Rather than go on about how OK you are with being “rejected,” why not count the times you use the words “I” and “me” (or “we” when you really mean “I”) before you post, so you can get a sense of what people are really trying to say. If you care.

17 paulshabram

I wonder from whom DC learn fallaciousness?

24. elena - August 6, 2008

Javoh, your comments are more and more welcome as time passes.

25. nigel harris price - August 6, 2008

#1 Daily Cardiac
It may interest you to know that not all those who have left the FOF are ‘bitter and twisted’. I count myself as one of the lucky ones who have taken their ‘play’ both in and out of the FOF and are living productive, constructive, giving lives with real live human beings. It was actually the Buddha who said that the search for enlightenment was actually a human striving. I don’t actually see the point of staying within an elitist cult and following orders from an idiot-predatory-homosexual. You tell me where it gets you…..Nigel.

26. nigel harris price - August 6, 2008

#1 Daily Cardiac
And, by the way, you are not exercising rights. You are following the perpertrations of REB’s wrongs…..Nigel.

27. Ames Gilbert - August 6, 2008

It’s apparent that Daily Cardiac (#42-1) is getting uppity and doesn’t know his place. Not here on the blog, I mean, here he’s triply welcome; as a foil, an object lesson, and a sad reminder of where so many of us were. Thank you, Cardiac!
No, what I mean is, within the Fellowship of Friends hierarchy. Ex-followers, obviously, already know what I mean, so this introduction to the structure and ranking within the Fellowship is for the intrepid explorer, who has googled his or her way here and is looking for objective information.

The two broad categories of membership in the Fellowship are obvious: Burton, and then ‘other’. It is within this category that the subtlety and nuances of the organization manifest so richly.

It is not easy to explain to the lay mind the extremely intricate ramifications of the personnel of an up–and–coming new religion like the Church of Burton. I’ll be as brief as possible. Cardiac is a Nodder. A Nodder is like a Yes-man, only lower in the social scale. A Yes–Man’s duty is to attend social interactions where senior followers or Burton are present and say, ‘Yes’. A Nodder’s, as the name subtly implies, is to nod. Whoever is the most senior member present throws out some statement or opinion, such as “As we all know, the play is written”, and looks about him expectantly. This is the cue for the senior Yes–Man to say yes. He is followed, in order of precedence, by the second Yes-Man—or Vice Yesser, as he is sometimes called—and the junior Yes–Man. Only when all the Yes–Men have yessed (yussed in the southern states), do the Nodders begin to function. They nod.

It doesn’t sound like much of a job, and frankly it isn’t much of a job, but there is a certain glory in it, because one has to have been in the Fellowship for at least three years before one qualifies. And, experienced Nodders are said to have as skilled a sense of timing as the best comedians delivering a punch line. Socially, it lies below the Writer of Daily Cards and the person who produces Photoshopped license plates, and of course well below someone like the Keyer of Museum Photographs. Nodders are not automatically ‘given the nod’ at the three–year mark. To qualify, one must have memorized at least four angles given by Kevin B., and to have quoted them, in his hearing, to other students without outwardly displaying the slightest sign of being overheard by him. If he is convinced that the tribute to his advanced being is truly from the heart, then it is only a matter of time before he confers this mark of his high esteem. Remember, he was one of the best Nodders in the business, in his time. He Knows.

This is how one is drawn out of the teeming masses of ordinary followers and deposited on the first rung of the ladder. (The concept of ‘ladders’ is ascribed to Burton, who received commentary concerning the hierarchy from Leonardo; apparently an interpretation of the sounds of gas after overindulging in Cheese Blintzes—Little Swiss Cafe, Carmel, CA circa 1974).

What comes above Yes–Man? The next rung is that rare and lofty office, Keyer, followed by Photoshopper, and Writer of Daily Cards, in that order (perhaps I will have more to say about them at another time). Above that, Official Angle Giver and Chief Angle Giver. Beyond that, it is not possible to go, unless one has been anointed as Next Conscious Being by Burton himself.

Official Angle Givers differ greatly from ordinary angle givers. Anyone, however lowly, can give an angle, but it subject to mauling and changes by Censors—a lateral branch on the same level and with the same authority as Chief Angle Givers, or by Burton himself. Official Angle Givers are extraordinary because they can be quoted, and any angles they give are not subject to change.

Ordinary angles, as I have mentioned before, can be freely changed, and often are, by the laity themselves, or by higher officials to suit their various purposes. Ordinary angles are recognized as a valid way of letting off steam. After all, it is hard to have memorized huge chunks of the Fourth Way, or obscure passages from commentaries on the Koran or Philokalia, and not be able to show off one’s discipline or RAM capacity, so no umbrage is taken if an ordinary follower does seize the rare opportunity to do so in private situations.

Official Angle Givers, however, have to have demonstrated the ability to give angles, pithy quotes, or appropriate hagiography on demand, and not only on demand but in alignment with the Founding Principles (Present Version 38.5c) of the organization. Not only must they possess expensive suits, clear diction, and penetrating voices, they must proclaim angles without faltering and project a deep belief in what they are talking about. Perfect examples are Kevin B. or Ethan H.

After many years of unremitting toil and service to the cause, Official Angle Givers may hope to be elevated to Chief Angle Givers, equal with Girard H. himself. It is from this lofty space that Official Books and Sonorous Sayings come to be written, and the holders of the office can expect to attract admirers and groupies of their own.

Cardiac has sinned in that he has tried to elevate himself to Official Angle Giver, an impossibly high goal within the hierarchy, and far beyond his capabilities, though not temperament. And the only reason, and opportunity, for doing so is this blog; he can hide behind the anonymity of a blog name. But I recognize him for what he is, heart and soul a Nodder, and call him on it. And I bet that Nick S. and others are seeking clues about his identity as I write.

By the way, it is not possible for mere females to aspire to becoming even Nodders. Although many try, it is a hollow gesture, because it has been decreed that they must wait for a future lifetime when they will ‘play a male role’. There are exceptions (as noted above), however, for those who, according to Burton, are to reprise the role of Elizabeth I in a future lifetime. Stay tuned.

I hope this necessarily brief guide to the Fellowship of Friends hierarchy will be helpful to anyone who has just joined the Fellowship, and will give pause to anyone thinking about joining. Readers should know that I never even became a Nodder myself, though I did aspire to that for a time. I tried to jump straight to Official Angle Giver a couple of times in 1994, and was immediately terminated for my pains; serves me right, my presumption was exceeded only by my naivité.
Watch out, Daily Cardiac, I’m warning you for your own good!

28. brucelevy - August 6, 2008

26. Ames Gilbert

Ames, Ames Ames, you’re leaving out one of the most important aspects. There is a way of acceleration in climbing the social/hierarchical ladder of the FOF, IF you’re young, pretty, naive and MALE. In ancient “school” texts it’s called taking (or giving) it up the ass.
Make no mistake, with ingenuity, self love, clean underwear, a pretty face with pink cheeks and no conscience you too can be a worthless piece……, scuse me, an important piece of the ark of the next civilization, when all the rest of sleeping mankind gets what it deserves.

29. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 6, 2008

26 Ames

There was always a great deal of crap in the Fellowship, even in its so-called Golden Age; everything that now appears to be a part of the form had at least its genesis in forms that existed decades ago. RB was always a perv and a con man, and the nonsense about the gods and the ark and the earthquakes and crystallizations and on and on all go back to the early days. All the same, it really is sad how much it has degenerated. From everything I have seen and heard about the current “teaching,” and from watching the video of a recent meeting “taught” by RB, with his eye-rollingly absurd “keying,” I’m truly baffled at how people can for a moment imagine he’s speaking intelligently, never mind Revealed Truth. This makes it very difficult to even bother with DC or other members; I have a hard time crediting them with the most basic discrimination.

30. Rear View Mirror - August 6, 2008

26 and 27:
And while the Official Angle Givers give their Official Angles with “clear diction and penetrating voices,” the “taking (or giving)” was going on earlier that morning just a few feet away.

If gods do exist, I wonder what they think about cult leaders using their names and ideas to deceive people and promote pernicious agendas. I’m sure they don’t exalt with joy.

31. brucelevy - August 6, 2008

28

“I’m truly baffled at how people can for a moment imagine he’s speaking intelligently, never mind Revealed Truth. ”

The more one’s invested, even apart from money, the less likely one is going to admit that one’s been taken. The FOF attracts people, in a large way, who have an incredibly inflated sense of self, even before the FOF. It’s just another bump in one’s self image that further refines how “out of the ordinary” one is for finding the true teaching. It’s just icing on the elite tasting cake. Within that artificial environment, and just using the accepted “acts”, one can become a fucking God, in their own minds. It’s “fat camp” for fat heads.

32. brucelevy - August 6, 2008

29. Rear View Mirror

“If gods do exist, I wonder what they think about cult leaders using their names and ideas to deceive people and promote pernicious agendas.”

Think about it. They’re rolling on the floor laughing (and crying).

33. Rear View Mirror - August 6, 2008

31. brucelevy

“Think about it. They’re rolling on the floor laughing (and crying).”

lol. so true… laughter and tears, and occasional boredom. If it’s a “play,” I’m guessing many of them have left the theater. Cults have become a predictable plot. The same ole characters, the same failed predictions, the same sexual “impropriety”, and the same denial by the cult’s followers and former followers.

34. Yesri Baba - August 6, 2008

26 Ames

LOL…brutal.

I never made it to nodder either, unless you count trying to stay awake at various events and meals.

35. will coyote - August 6, 2008

Somebody write :”How is it that there are approximately 1700 members currently experiencing higher states,and receiving very fine and unique knowledge.”
Do you know that for the sufis experience higher states is an intoxication ? What the fof people think of what means to be consciousness ? In Buddhism,in Cristian there are signes that show if you are in the way: compassion, joy, creativity, equanimity, relaxation… How fof people mistakes eccitation for counscioness ? What they think is C influence if not in some part of the heart that sounds the same note that Sun? What do they thinks means to be food for the moon if not go to the hell? Nobody told them that Four way is a joke of Gurdjieff to unveil a esoteric cristian church? I think if tomorrow Burton became caste the fof remain the same a distructive cult.

36. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 6, 2008

32 RVM

Which is why I’m doubtful there would be too much interest in a documentary. After so many essentially identical cult stories over the past 30 years, it’s trite. At a certain point, it becomes like someone who smoked two packs a day for decades griping about getting emphysema or lung cancer. Members, and even former members to some extent, may view the FOF as somehow more fascinating or shocking because everyone’s supposedly so “intellectual,” or because they imagine the kitsch at Isis is so classy, but if such a documentary were shown to an audience in New York or San Francisco, my guess is that the only thing that many of them would find shocking is that so many people continued to buy into the hype long after it should have been pretty obvious that the whole thing was silly.

37. Rear View Mirror - August 6, 2008

Good points. Well, I’m certainly not making a documentary.

But I think any documentary that includes references to the FOF wouldn’t need to be “about the FOF.” You’re right. It would bore people to tears, unless the film was done really well, and with a lot of humor in the manner of Michael Moore. Whoever featured the FOF might be doing a documentary on any number of other topics — such as the use of marketing lingo or marketing tools to manipulate how people think — and the FOF would tie into it.

That’s just one example.

38. somebody - August 7, 2008

more brainwashing?

“The ability to portray the message well does not necessary translate into the capacity to be it, to transcend it into presence.”
Many people have had the message, but it is uncertain whether they had the presence to back it up. *Here, in our age, we see the Dali Lama holding a sequential bow with six arrows. He is quite a prominent public figure, but this message is for very few people. Influence C are here in this Pavilion.

“The sequence is a divine magic flute; its music dissolves imagination. We are the breath needed to play it.” (A student)
Our sequential breathing. *A wonderful statue from Cyprus depicts a steward with two flutes, representing short Be on the left, and long Be, which is slightly larger, on the right. He holds four fingers on each flute, representing the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths. In fact, the opera The Magic Flute by Mozart, who was connected with the Freemasons, is a school work.

“Inconspicuous presence means there is nothing but presence, and no one else can detect that.”
The Hindu texts say, “The wise man lives happily. Just seeing when seeing, just hearing when hearing, just feeling when feeling, just smelling when smelling, and just tasting when tasting.” Presence is its own imperishable reward. *Here is a photograph of me taken in Oaxaca, Mexico.

“Influence C are asking a lot from all of us, but we must remember that what they want for us is the state they are in.”
Unbelievably, we are in the same state as Influence C who are in this Pavilion now. However, this state is permanent for them, while we are subject to losing it to imagination. THe are asking a lot from us, but they are giving us even more. *Last week I stayed in Modesto, California. It was the fortieth anniversary of my automobile accident (1968-2008), which occurred in Modesto. My car was hit sideways, and I woke up with a hundred stitches in my head. *I was driving this same model Volkswagen “bug” in the same tan color. Shortly after Konstanze Murr completed her task, we stepped out of a restaurant in Sacramento, and we observed a car, which was the same model and color as Konstanze’s, whith a license plate saying “Sung and Danced”. It did not say, “Sing and Dance”, because Kostanze had sung and danced – she has finished her role.

“The lower self is insatiable for many things, and above all for imagination.”
He cannot get enough of imagination. I was watching two people in life conversing, and both were speaking in imagination, talking and looking up, with a veil on their faces. *An illuminated manuscript depicts an angel sealing Satan and his devils in a bottomless pit. Here we see how the lower self craves imagination with his ten thousand ‘I’s. In this case, however, the angel –long Be – has locked them up in the red narrow gate.

39. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 7, 2008

37 somebody

“Unbelievably, we are in the same state as Influence C who are in this Pavilion now.”

Now there’s something we can all agree on.

—————————————————–

“The lower self is insatiable for many things, and above all for imagination.”

–Whoops, almost forgot–and, of course, for blowjobs.

40. Josiane - August 7, 2008

26. Ames
Powerful. It was like watching Bill Mayer on HBO. Humour is powerful because it takes us off guard (lets off our defenses) while presenting us with the truth–that it wants to present. Well done. Thank you.

41. Josiane - August 7, 2008

…should be “lets down our defenses…

42. James Mclemore - August 7, 2008

From 37 –
“Here we see how the lower self craves imagination with his ten thousand ‘I’s. In this case, however, the angel –long Be – has locked them up in the red narrow gate.”
**
To think that in all this time, I never thought to look for the ‘red narrow gate’!! I hate it when you find out about these things after it’s probably too late.

43. paulshabram - August 7, 2008

Somebody 37
Now hat just creeps me out!

Are these selected or are these representative?

44. My4bits - August 7, 2008

Re: Post 37

“Presence is its own imperishable reward. *Here is a photograph of me taken in Oaxaca, Mexico.”

No comment.

45. arthur - August 7, 2008

I think it was innernaut that brought up “advertising and marketing”. And then someone else brought up emphysema.

Which reminded me of the 1940 movies when the stars of that era would smoke cigarettes with their “pinkie” fingers held aloft, and with long cigarette holders to boot. They depicted the higher (economic) classes.

Then came along M. Brando with his cigarette package rolled up in his t-shirt sleeve. He and others depicted the lower (economic) classes.

In the 1950’s the slogans were on billboards, “I’d walk a mile for a camel” or “10 out of 12 doctors recommend Lucky Strike cigarettes”.

The push to smoke was everywhere. And, of course we weak ones fell for it hook, line and sinker. Every Bud needs two cigarettes.

In modern times a group of lawyers sued the cigarette companies and won billions of dollars. Enough to buy three story “high alchemy” boats, waterfront mansions and jets.
Some Hospital Districts were supposed to receive some of the “proceeds” most didn’t.

So, the question is what part of “life’s” consumer advertising is catching the weak ones hook,line and sinker? It is happening.

Maybe Robert Burton ought to emulate the Mega-Churches who bring in hordes of people willing to tithe everything they own.

46. veronicapoe - August 7, 2008

The more one’s invested, even apart from money, the less likely one is going to admit that one’s been taken.

http://tinyurl.com/5ukhm8

47. My4bits - August 7, 2008

When visiting the centre in St. Petersburg, Russia, I once saw some gifts that RB had sent, via courier, to two young Russian lads, who are in their 20’s. Hmm… That’s thoughtful! Two sets of cheap cuff-links, and two small, inexpensive leather travel bags that you carry on your shoulder.

I wonder what he had in mind? Evolution?

48. My4bits - August 7, 2008

A fellow student, and a friend over several decades, advised me on one occasion that I “should cut my losses and run.” I took his advice. He’s still there, photoshopping museum photos and vanity license plates. Go figure.

49. My4bits - August 7, 2008

A female Russian student once confided in me that she dearly wanted and needed Robert’s attention and respect. But whenever he visited Russia, he was only interested in “the boys.”

50. Opus 111 - August 7, 2008

speaking of license plates,

“sung and danced” has way too many letters to fit on a CA personalized plate (6 characters). I imagine there might have been a fair amount of “keying” involved

51. My4bits - August 7, 2008

Honor the dead, Opus.

52. veramente - August 7, 2008

33 Yesri Baba – August 6, 2008
26 Ames

LOL…brutal.

I never made it to nodder either, unless you count trying to stay awake at various events and meals.
————–
in this case one had to pretend having a broom stick up you know where, for as long and as painfully possible.
Wine was welcome afterwards to relax the muscles or the king of hearts, who knows…

53. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

Breaking news:

I saw a license plate today with the word “angel” on it. I’m not kidding. And yes, I know — that’s not supposed to happen to those of us who have lost the way. Supposedly we “former members” who “lose the school” also “lose the gods,” and I presume that would mean they would stop giving us such wonderful shocks to help us to remember ourselves. Because what’s the point in giving us shocks since we have stopped having sex with Robert, have left the FOF, and have therefore lost all possibilities by denying the will of the gods (which apparently is to obey Robert Burtons and give him pleasure).

Of course, the explanation would be that it was just a coincidence that I happened to see a license plate with the word “angel” on it. And that the word “angel” was simply on the license plate because the driver was a beautiful woman (that’s actually true), and that it was bound to happen at some point or another, or that I saw it only because I would say something about it here, and cause a shock for some student who happens to tune into the blog. But when that very student sees the same license plate, it is not “just a coincidence” but it is a message from The Angels, and if RB sees it, an image is presented at a meeting, and Robert makes some sort of comment about it to show how the gods are working with him closely (as described in the posts above).

It takes a lot of work to think in circles like that. But you current member who does happen to tune into the blog to read this… What an odd twist to this little play of ours if the gods (assuming they are not a part of our imagination) are actually with each of us out here, helping us, caring for us, and assisting us just the same.

And maybe all along, just helping us… to leave.

54. paulshabram - August 7, 2008

*A wonderful statue from Cyprus depicts a steward with two flutes in his ass, his testicles representing short Be on the left, and long Be, which is slightly larger, on the right. He holds four fingers his erect penis, representing the inhalation and exhalation of the four wordless breaths. In fact, the opera The Magic Flute by Mozart, who was buggered by the Freemasons, is a school work.

55. Ames Gilbert - August 7, 2008

Bruce (#43-26, or thereabouts),
My bad. You are absolutely right, Burton has the power to short cut any process or mode of behavior in the Fellowship. That is his special privilege, which he exerts at whim. The average follower passes this off as ‘crazy wisdom’. I call it plain crazy.

Yesri Baba (#43-33 or thereabouts),
Yes, there was a distinct and perilous difference between Nodding and nodding off, as many a vineyard worker (D-1) found to their cost. This was regarded as an honorable ‘source of friction’ by some, nevertheless, and while the vineyard was being built, it was common to see many D-1s at the back, even standing up to try to stay ‘out of first state’. And any sympathetic observer’s understanding grin had to be brief and subtle to avoid a later talking-to, disguised as a ‘photograph’ by some eagle-eyed, self-appointed watcher. The difference between real Nodders who in meetings nod in waves and on cue (like identical stalks of asparagus bowing before some dyspepsic elephant passing wind), and people nodding off, is that the latter are always alone and out of sync. True Nodders nod gracefully and intentionally (of course) while false nodders signal their disgrace by jerking their sorry heads as they fall prey to their lower selves.

A bigger danger, as a previous blogger has attested on these pages, is when a follower nods off at one of Burton’s dinners. Woe betide them! This is a deadly insult to Beloved Teacher, and has been punished with the spiritual death sentence, excommunication to the outer darkness, accompanied by the requisite wailing and gnashing of teeth. I was often tempted to take amphetamines before dinners with Burton, to ward off the effects of the rather predictable and monotonous monologs; these consisting of random opinions, interspersed with parroting of disconnected quotes, taken out of context from dead writers who conveniently could not dispute the misuse of their words.

56. nigel harris price - August 7, 2008

52 Rear View Mirror
In my city of Exeter, there is a (university) student pub called ‘The Angel’ (on Queen Street) and ‘The Carved Angel Cafe’ in Cathedral Place (also angels on the facade of the cathedral itself). Also, one of my jewellery students lives at 44 Hamlin Lane, Exeter and one of my jewellery out workers is at 44 Fore Street, Heavitree, exter. The name of his business is Leymans (read laity men!). My application number for the Membership of the Institute for Learning was 44166649 (as I said before, meaning, to me, ‘The Gods are with I AM; the beast is near San Francisco’). Any more for any more?..Nigel.

57. Yesri Baba - August 7, 2008

35 javoh

Classy Isis klitsh

There must be an oxymoron in there somewhere.

58. nigel harris price - August 7, 2008

I just happened to go back through very early blogging and found references to comparisons with other ‘schools’ and the FOF. Things about getting consciousness and behaviour can ‘go hang’. I just cannot trust anyone who acts in an immoral fashion but claims ‘higher consciousness’. I got (bought, by money, time and efforts) what I came for through being through and leaving behind the FOF – MY SELF and HIGHER STATES – and am better for now having no form to my life other than a sense of acting according to Christ’s precept “Always be doing to others as you would have them do to you”. If I remember REB quotes, some are “Dear God, how high the price!” and “It is not necessary to our aim to feel special”.
And, by God, I paid to be fiercely present and remembering those and other quotes…..Nigel

59. Ellen - August 7, 2008

#1, Daily Cardiac

You say: “But I can see the attractiveness in the fact that if you spend enough time lambasting someone you don’t actually have to try to meet the offending words with any kind of critical thinking.”

Let’s reverse it: “But I can see the attractiveness in the fact that if you spend enough time defending yourself you don’t actually have to try to meet the offending words with any kind of critical thinking.”

I hope and presume you were not referring to my response to you, page 42, #440 because after all, this whole thread began as a dialogue between you and I. I would like to continue on that basis if you are still open to it.

What I am interested in, is your critical thinking, particularly in relation to “awakening”. I merely suggested you might be applying deductive reasoning to such an essential activity as spiritual realization or enlightenment, when inductive logic may serve you much better, particularly at this point in time.

So, my suggestion, go to the Propylaia database, check out the names of some of the revered masters that are and have been used for the Teaching events. Names like Rumi, Ibn Arabi, Meister Eckhardt, Dogen, Sankara, Walt Whitman (is he back in vogue now?), Shakespeare, etc… Take these names and type them one each into Google along with the term non duality (a technical term for the realization of oneness) and see what you come up with. Can you do that? Will you do that? (Actually, I haven’t done this myself, so it is not a loaded suggestion. Merely a confident one.)

Just try to absorb with out any conceptual argument whatever you find. If you find something confusing, take note, and be patient. Search. Probe. Investigate. With both your mind and your heart. And it will take a long time, so you need to dedicate yourself to the task, to unveiling the truth, even if it is just an intellectual/conceptual recalibration.

And it is fine with me if you don’t dialogue here any more, I could only hope your silence was due to being busy with your new homework. If you are a school teacher, you will understand? 😉

60. Daily Cardiac - August 7, 2008

To Ellen:

I don’t see myself as someone who was predisposed towards duality. I doubt that I formulated things to such a degree in the beginning. When I first started trying to be present I saw that there were many obstacles in the way and all the obstacles were within. When I developed a strong aim to be present as much as I could I saw I could only attempt it for a few moments a day.

I was fortunate in the sense that in the first few months in the school I was given some extraordinary states with accompanying understandings; seemingly without much effort involved so I knew a higher reality existed. I also sensed the states were something like a gift or preview and I could return to them if I continued to work at it.

Non-duality as I see it is based on a false premise that one does not need to make special efforts to access higher faculties. In a sense you can say, as non-dualists say, that we are eternally present; our higher centers are always there. But it’s been mentioned by others (and seems so to me) that they are dormant and not able to compete with the lower self that is fully developed by the time we are 3 or 4.

Personally I think the concept of non-duality, as Adyashanti practices it, is a distortion, a misconception, of the principle of non-attachment as developed in the Buddhist tradition.

Adyashanti says, to paraphrase, “if the mind babbles for 10 years, what’s the big deal, let it babble, just don’t invest in the babbling.” This is only going half way, as the babbling itself reflects an investment. And the babbling, invested or otherwise, effectively wards off presence.

I also have experienced that when I work with the esoteric principles developed in the school they effectively stop the babbling. I don’t have to control it, it simply vanishes and what remains is a clear state of Self-Remembering.

I sense that you still have something like a barrier in place to the possibility that my way works for me and produces the results I look for and came for. You continue to suggest I’ll snap out of my fog one day. What prevents you from accepting the possibility that my way works for me, and that’s only reason I continue on with it, that I do not need to change directions, but need to go deeper into the direction I am drawn towards, as you go towards the direction that draws you?

I understand you invested a lot in the FoF over the years. I understand you invested a lot in your decision to walk away from that investment. I understand how you would naturally think that everyone would come to the same conclusions that you did; it’s all perfectly human to think that way.

But where does that leave someone like me? If I got to pick from any reality in the world I would pick the one I am living; I would not change a moment. I’ve had my epiphanies, my meltdowns. I’ve stood face to face with my biggest illusions and fears. And in the end the school has been the affirming principle, the one beacon, in my life.

It doesn’t seem necessary that one person’s reality needs to be vanquished for another’s to be realized. Shakespeare said be true to your self and you cannot be false to any other man. Can you really know my truth?

Take Care

Traveler, I will answer your questions, which should include Vena’s also.

Elena, thanks for the observation regarding post # 38.5

61. Daily Cardiac - August 7, 2008

Ellen,

Just saw your #58 after I sent 59.

62. Bares Reposting - August 7, 2008

42/202. Man Number Zero – August 1, 2008:

‘Are you A-OK with fucking children if Robert tells you that that’s what Influence C wants?’

As my mother used to say, ‘If [so-and-so] says to go jump off a roof, do you?’
Cult followers need to use some of the damn intelligence they were born with.

(You can be sure that if the conSEQUENCES for doing what Man Number Zero is quoted on above were minimal and acceptable, that certain unnamed persons would be doing it. To certain peoples’ thinking, the crime/sin is not in the act, but in the getting caught.)

63. Associated Press - August 7, 2008

1. Daily Cardiac – August 6, 2008:

‘Any novice psychologist would not have a problem seeing the classic abused/abuser syndrome at work. People who are abused or simply perceive themselves as being abused typically react by becoming an abuser.

The thinking is that their abuser did not respect their rights and did not offer them justice so they have the same right to turn the tables if the opportunity arises. So, now any student who comes to this blog and offers their honest thoughts is Robert Burton in their eyes and he/she is fair game to be abused in turn.’

– – – – – –

So, then, from what you say, there is a VERY STRONG argument and possibility that those posting to this blog, and critical of FoF/REB, were actually, or perceptually, abused and that is why they turn around and become abusers themselves. (They learned from the master abuser (or is that the master bater) after all.) With that logic, I am glad that you can then admit that about FoF/REB as the instigator of the abuser process. Some pecking-orders actually can come full circle and ‘what goes around comes around.’ Well, we are all abusers and/or the abused here (love that switch hitting role playing) so that makes everything alright, I guess. Wake up, fool!

Great logic! Because some posters may be abusers (in someone’s perception) means that they were abused by someone/something but that could not possibly be FoF/REB as the initiating abuser. Duh!

——

5. Another Name – August 6, 2008:

Thanks for the reminder.
ho ‘oponopono
was discussed at length on
these blog pages: 5, 8, 9 & 25.

——

9. arthur – August 6, 2008:

‘Maybe Asaf or Dorian could be hearing wedding bells?’

Both these people have arranged marriages already to women but that should not stop them. One of them went on record to marry twice, simultaneously (or is that synchronistically – must have been a license plate or maybe, more accurately, a licentious pate), and that is why they could not return to good old U.S. of A. and to the bosom of their big bucks daddy. Life is good in Italy where, I guess, they allow plural marriages.

64. Ellen - August 7, 2008

#59, DC

Thanks. Well stated. I wouldn’t change your valuation for your meltdowns, I’ve had a few remarkable ones myself.

“What prevents you from accepting the possibility that my way works for me, and that’s the only reason I continue on with it, that I do not need to change directions, but need to go deeper into the direction I am drawn towards, as you go towards the direction that draws you?”

Nothing. By all means: “Go deeper. Nothing more is necessary.” Take it all the way.

For my part, I sense, but I could be wrong, that you have a very superficial and formatory understanding of non-duality. That’s all. Adyashanti is merely one example currently teaching on the west coast. (And I saw him for reference, as I am not intensively drawn to his teaching. Yet I do respect it.) But the n-d current runs wide and deep, it’s breadcrumbs filling up your database on Propylaia. And no, you don’t need to go deeper there if you don’t want to.

Let’s just agree to disagree and offer affectionate greetings to one another.
Cheers, and of course, good luck to you…

65. Ellen - August 7, 2008

#59, DC

P.S. “It doesn’t seem necessary that one person’s reality needs to be vanquished for another’s to be realized.” I completely agree. As a teaching tool, I consider harming another person’s essence to be unnecessary. So, ask Girard what he thinks about the concept of collateral damage.

66. Wouldnt You Like To Know - August 7, 2008

Re: 42#360. innernaut:

‘Every time we see a string of numbers with a 4 in it, there is a 1 in 10 chance that the next number will also be a 4.’

What are the chances? If there is a string of numbers, that is, at least a string of 3 numbers, then, I think that might not be quite the picture. If there is a string of numbers, let’s say a string of 3 minimum, and a ‘4’ appears in a none end position, there is a ‘1 in 10 chance’ that a ‘4’ will appear before it and a ‘1 in 10 chance’ that a ‘4’ will appear after it. And, since it is a ’44’ that is sought (not a ‘444’), the chances are even better than a ‘1 in 10 chance.’ What do you think? I am not a mathematician or statistician. But I would venture that it is more like 2 chances in 10 that a ’44’ could appear. There is the possibility to express this mathematically and come up with the exact odds. Any comments?

67. Wouldnt You Like To Know - August 7, 2008

42/361. elena – August 4, 2008

‘351 Wouldn’t you like to know

A bit tedious? Just a bit? That’s not too bad after all I’ve written. Thanks.

That some people don’t read me at all and just skip my posts? Good for them, or we’ll end up in the Elena Cult or the Elena for the stake cult. What I wonder is, do they skip them because I am saying things that make them uncomfortable and they are not willing to talk about them? This seems an obvious possibility since the issues rarely get considered. Or they care so little about me that they don’t give a dam about establishing a dialogue? Or they don’t want to go there?

Let’s take you for instance. I don’t think we’ve had an actual conversation about anything I’ve said here before and all you can think of actually saying to me when you finally address me is: “you’re a bit tedious” “Not that I’m trying to silence you though” and I ask: what sort of dialogue is that? Are you trying to say its too long? Too insistent? Too dramatic? Tell me, is there anything of value? And if there is, do you think it would not be easier for me to take a comment like this if you at least try to validate some of my writings before you simply label them tedious?

I guess the point for me here is: are we expecting each other to be perfect? Conscious beings? Do most people here avoid to write because they are afraid to make fools of themselves? Be too tedious? Be rejected? As it is so common amongst any group of people? Do we think we just came out of a Conscious School and everyone here has to pretend they are conscious beings above every consequence of having been in a Cult for decades? Which brings me to what I really wanted to share today.’

Etcetera…

Elena, there is little reason to respond defensively or offensively to my post to you. I was just suggesting this:
Besides your process that you are going through, in your postings/writings, do you try to take into consideration the audience you are trying to reach and how they might receive best from your generosity?

68. WonderingWhosWatching - August 7, 2008

42@372. Ames Gilbert – August 4, 2008

‘My4Bits (# 42-368),
The use of vanity plates in meetings thing occurred after my time. Could you (or anyone else) give us examples, together with the interpretations that went with them? Where did the actual plates come from? Thanks.’

They either come from the metal plate that REB has in his head (from the 1968 car crash – fixing the hole where the rain comes in that keeps his mind wondering) or, it is his prophetic sight seeing himself making California license plates while in Folsom Prison, somewhen.

69. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

Speaking of superstition and 44s and license plates…

With the beginning of the Olympics tomorrow, a lot is being said about the 8-8-08, or 08-08-08, and how it’s considered a lucky number in Chinese culture.

So this would be perfect time to declare yourself a Man No. 8 and get some international press coverage. But hurry and do it before RB does. Like the Olympics, awakening — as defined by the FOF — is nothing more than a competition. Get there before they do, and you win. Be one of the nonbelievers, and you lose. Why read the volumes of “angles” given by RB, Girard, and all of us at hundreds of meetings over three decades. The following pretty much summarizes it:

Get there before they do, and you win.

You decide… Is this really the will of the gods, and the creation of a soul? Or is simply the creation of yet another ego?

70. somebody - August 7, 2008

42. paulshabram

“Now hat just creeps me out!
Are these selected or are these representative?”

Recently, Robert realized that all his observations throughout the years have a similarity to the call of the loon, a reclusive bird that keeps calling from the other side of the shore to those that can hear.

Undoubtedly the most noteworthy trait of the loon is its distinctive call, which occurs usually at night. It is described as one of the most striking wilderness sounds, a strange, unearthly cry, both joyful and sad at the same time. For those who have been fortunate enough to hear its beautiful sound, the call of the loon will not soon be forgotten.

Robert wishes the thoughts from the “The Call of the Loon” meetings to be available to all students.

Here are some images…

71. Pavel - August 7, 2008

1 and 68 are newly moderated.

Lauralupa: So glad that someone here would quote R.A. Wilson, he probably affected my thinking more than anyone else I have yet read.

72. steve lang - August 7, 2008

Hey Cardiac-

When I left the FOF last year it was because C-influence communicated to me that the Sequence would be Robert’s final teaching. They also indicated to me that all of the things I had learned in the FOF could be practiced outside of the FOF. So far they have been correct. I am sharing this with you because this is what C-Influence wants.

73. Traveler - August 7, 2008

Hi Rear View Mirror,

I have been meaning to respond to your last 2 posts addressed to me: I have come to be positively biased towards your posts – you often say stuff that makes sense to me, and so I look forward to dialog with you even on points that challenge my thinking. I just have not had the time this week.

So if I don’t get around to it, just briefly, in response to your 43/16 and the other post. Seeing the FOF as a complete waste of time period, is just not something that I could say at this point in time and believe myself. So I don’t say it. I think it’s much more complex than that. But in trying to understand where you’re coming from, I’m guessing that you think people would be much more free if they could get beyond the guilt they feel when the FOF is criticized, and the automatic response to defend it and excuse it as not that bad. In other words, if they could for once just let themselves see the full horror of the situation, and be with it. And that’s what you would wish for people to be able to do, because it’s helped you a great deal. Right?

As for “helping Daily Cardiac”, if that comes through as my intent, I will pay more attention to those attitudes in me that may think they are indeed on a mission to help. I did not think I was out to help him, and that is not something I would aspire to do. I’m not assuming that the person who is behind Daily Cardiac will end up agreeing with me, and if he is not open to dialog, he can bail out at any time, and I will not grab him by the shirt collar and force him to stay and talk to me. Though if he left at this point, I would be a bit disappointed. So far I mostly got the impression that he is someone who is able to sustain dialog and eager to express truth as he sees it – that quite apart from agreeing or disagreeing with the content of his statements and his application of logic, what I value is his willingness to share. Daily Cardiac (like many on this blog) is helping me get in touch with some parts of myself, and for that I am truly grateful.

74. More history needed? - August 7, 2008

The call of the loon an more loony/ lunetic.

From the propylaia: Robert realized that his observations are similar to the call of the loon calling from one side of the lake to the other side of the lake The loon, a reclusive bird that keeps calling from the other side of the shore to those that can hear.

On http://www.ns.ec.gc.ca/wildlife/loons/sounds/trem.au

• Wail (474 K AU)
The wail is most frequently given in the evening or at night, and can be heard for many miles. This haunting call is not an alarm call but is used to keep in contact with other loons on the same lake and surrounding lakes.

In the evening or night, who will hear Robert’s call? I this a Freudian slip of the tongue?

Maybe the Tremolo is next? Insane laughter?
• Tremolo (9.6 K WAV) (6.8 K AU) (9.4 K AIF)
The tremolo has been described as “insane laughter”; it is 8 to 10 notes voiced rapidly which vary in frequency and intensity. This alarm call usually indicates agitation or fear, often caused by disturbance from people, a predator or even another loon. This is also the only call that loons make in flight.

for Daily Cardiac another in the night…..Robert calling out for what? Wail (474 K AU)
The wail is most frequently given in the evening or at night, and can be heard for many miles. This haunting call is not an alarm call but is used to keep in contact with other loons on the same lake and surrounding lakes.
• Yodel (104 K WAV) (78 K AU) (104 K AIF)
The yodel is only made by male loons. This call is used to advertise and defend their territory, especially during incubation and early chick-rearing. If you are watching loons and they make this call or a tremolo, it usually means that you are too close and are disturbing the loons. If that happens, you should leave their territory and give them their pace.
• Hoot (17 K AU)
The hoot call is not as intense or as loud as the other calls. It is used to keep in contact with mates, chicks and social groups residing or visiting the same lake.

There are variations in each of these calls but little study has been done to determine the differences in their use and meaning

75. elena - August 7, 2008

Wouldn’t you like to know,
Tedious is tedious in no matter what language, if you had said what you just said instead, I would not have been defensive. I take into consideration the audience but cannot be limited by it. It would be better if the audience liked me but if I have to change what I understand to be liked then it is fine to not be liked. The audience is the Fellowship members and exmembers who I mostly never met because everyone was too busy with themselves or the Ark. Nobody cared about anyone except the little group in which they felt comfortable. It is not very different here and that’s O.K. No matter how rough one does learn to overcome obstacles
.
Whether you realize it or not, the things I’ve written here are the things I most value and I offer them in the public square because they are in the spirit of the public square. If it affects people’s private psychological property then it is being as effective as I could possibly hope.

It is wonderful when one realizes that the things one does to one’s self do not kill one, or the things that other people do to you cannot kill you either, even if they kill you. Life becomes more interesting each day.

I’m almost done in saying the things that were bursting to come out. This morning I thought I could still write some poetry about the present since the past is almost all taken care of, that is, my past and the need to deal with it. Now it has been incorporated and I can move on.

But for poetry one has to have love. Nothing else inspires it and there’s little of that here. Isn’t that O.K. too? Sometimes we’re poets, some warriors and others just people trying to live a decent life.

I went jogging this morning and verified once again that moving makes me happy. It is sex energy that somehow gets channeled into the sense of well being. Maybe movement is so vital because it is the expression of all processes in the physical. And then again I remembered with horror the fact that members do not move much and how sad most of them look, a little overweighed and with the skin falling down their face. It is not the same to move for a job one is doing as to move for the pleasure of movement. Isn’t the process of regeneration form giving life or something like that? It is beginning to become clear how radically significant form is. After all we were mostly indoctrinated by the alchemy and the form, or we were organically indoctrinated by the form more than the words. But if it worked so well inside, letting go of that form and assuming a different one will work just as well.

On the topic of the moon that some were having recently I wanted to offer the anthroposophic view of planetary influences which I find a lot of fun. Roughly what I’ve heard is that when a person dies the soul goes for a walk around the cosmos and stops first in the moon where it spends about a third of the lifetime it lived and then moves on to other planets receiving different experiences in each one of them. In the moon it is said that it leaves its Karma which it picks up on its way back into another incarnation. It leaves its karma in the moon and continues to unite with other cosmic beings in other planets, experiencing the unity and greatness of the Universe.

The study of planetary influences is much advanced in anthroposophical circles. Den,,,,nis Klo…….cek, a teacher in the Steiner College who seems to be predicting climate more accurately than scientific approaches, uses, amongst other things, planetary movements to predict the weather and mars is as martial as we understood it in the Fellowship. Weather doc I think is his site if you have any interest.

Another area in which it gets very beautiful is in the study of plant forms. They present very close analogies between the retrograde and forward movement of planets and the form they present in a complete cycle and then show the plants that correspond to an almost exact pattern of the former. It is beautiful to see it in practice because one becomes more connected with nature.

So long…..!

76. Richard M. - August 7, 2008

70. Somebody

Thanks for the hilarious pictures.
Captions for photos:
1. Checks to see if his false teeth are still glued to his gums.
2.The guy on the right is in a familiar position in relation to his teacher. Notice his small hands.
3. Brightly featherd loon bringing up the rear.
4. Small-handed guy looks miserable.
5. fruits

77. Richard M. - August 7, 2008

76.

Caption 2 should refers to small-handed guy on the LEFT.
Guy on the right has gargantuan hands.

78. Traveler - August 7, 2008

PS to 73: And if Daily Cardiac can find something of value for himself from his exchanges here, that is doubly gratifying to me!

79. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 7, 2008

Cardiac says: ‘Non-duality as I see it is based on a false premise that one does not need to make special efforts to access higher faculties. In a sense you can say, as non-dualists say, that we are eternally present; our higher centers are always there. But it’s been mentioned by others (and seems so to me) that they are dormant and not able to compete with the lower self that is fully developed by the time we are 3 or 4’.

Actually that is the way I used to understand it. Now I believe the difference in 4th Way Teaching, as an example, and non-dualistic thinking is that we (4th Way students) are told we need to ‘create’ a soul and ‘efforts’ are needed. Non-dualists believe it’s already there and no need to create something that’s already there. But in both cases one has to ‘realize’ the higher is functioning within one which requires presence. So now I believe it’s just a matter of semantics and that both are essentially saying the same thing.

And if you watch enough Adyashanti you get it that he is saying realization not effort to be present is required and that his message is that we are all one and emphasizes the interconnectedness of all and everything.

This same message is being given by many teachers today about the idea of resistance versus go with the flow and when practicing non-resistance one actually becomes more present. The effort here that is needed is kind of a non effort and similar to the Adyashanti teachings.

I believe ‘The Sequence’ is a resistance to allowing the sense of oneness to appear and again, RB has successfully distracted students so that they continue their feelings of separateness and disconnect.

80. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

73 and 78. Traveler, I appreciate your attitude about it. And I think your description of what I’m sometimes trying to convey is pretty accurate and articulated well.

At the same time, my viewpoints and opinions on the FOF are definitely going through some adjustments as time goes on. I agree that our experiences in the FOF is more complicated than “Complete Waste of Time and Damaging Experience” vs. “Something Good for Us.”

I personally believe that if we experienced positive outcomes in the FOF, we experienced them in spite of Burton and the FOF dogma, and not because of it. I believe these positive outcomes and experiences grew out of ourselves and our friendships — not from anything extraordinary about the cult itself. And I believe that we have a much greater potential to have these positive experiences outside the FOF — and to learn, grow, and to truly and honestly understand more about ourselves.

By the way, some of the comments about “Effort” vs. “No Effort” that DC and some other FOF apologists have mentioned, is an example of a false dichotomy. It all depends on what you call “effort.” If it means, self-doubt, self-loathing, clinging to fear, being tuned into superstitious ideas, trying to be “better” or “more lucky” than others and trying to separate yourself from the world and your community… If that’s what they mean by “efforts,” then no, I definitely don’t want to make efforts.

But “effort” can be defined quite a bit differently. Openness/receptivity: just one example. Getting into that “state” is an effort. I could easily write quite a bit more on this.

81. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

wakeuplittlesuzywakeup: 79 and mine 80. simultaneous posts.

Are we on the same wavelength or what?!

82. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

reminds me of something whalerider pointed out earlier when something similar happened. I like it.

83. Daily Cardiac - August 7, 2008

To A P 62:

“So, then, from what you say, there is a VERY STRONG argument and possibility that those posting to this blog, and critical of FoF/REB, were actually, or perceptually, abused and that is why they turn around and become abusers themselves. (They learned from the master abuser (or is that the master bater) after all.) With that logic, I am glad that you can then admit that about FoF/REB as the instigator of the abuser process.”

I said – “People who are abused or simply perceive themselves as being abused…”

A perceived wrong is no different than an actual wrong if it is perceived by someone as a wrong. I saw a tee shirt recently that stated “Perception is Reality” In my mind that’s not always true; perception is perception and reality is reality. If one’s perception is accurate it can be close to or the same as reality (what I consider the third state).

I understand your motives. Ames used the same ploy recently; I said I thought Adyashanti inflicted more spiritual harm in an hour than RB has in 38 and half years. Ames wrote back and said he was glad I was admitting that RB inflicts spiritual harm on people.

Some ex-students feel the blog is their exclusive domain and they can control the content. So if a supporter posts anything of reasonable merit they come out in force to “‘debunk” it, for posterity’s sake I guess.

84. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 7, 2008

One more idea in my #79:

Efforts are based on trying to control what is and realization is based on allowing what is.

85. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

“Some ex-students feel the blog is their exclusive domain and they can control the content. So if a supporter posts anything of reasonable merit they come out in force to “‘debunk” it, for posterity’s sake I guess.”

Actually, what you describe is called dissent.

Of course, no such debate occurs in the FOF — nowhere on its website, not during meetings, and not during any events. And if anyone attempts it, they’re removed from the cult. Would you prefer that this blog operated in the same way? No debate and no dissent?

Dream on.

86. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 7, 2008

RVM: I like it too. Big MEOW to you.

87. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

I don’t think Burton likes cats, by the way. What’s with that? Maybe they’re too smart to buy into his dog-ma.

Big meow to you, too.

88. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

83. Daily Cardiac

“Some ex-students feel the blog is their exclusive domain and they can control the content. So if a supporter posts anything of reasonable merit they come out in force to “‘debunk” it, for posterity’s sake I guess.”

ANOTHER STRAW MAN.

You’ve been given pretty broad free reign to say what you want. Should we keep our mouths shut, like in the FOF, and not address your bull shit. You’ve put your stuff out there, with even some support from people here. So cut the whiny ass titty baby bs and just say your piece and except what follows it up. This is far from the front row of FOF meetings. There’s very few nodders here.

89. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 7, 2008

#83 Cardiac: “Perception is perception and reality is reality. If one’s perception is accurate it can be close to or the same as reality (what I consider the third state)’.

Brain entrapment. Fourth Way overload.

90. Kid Shelleen - August 7, 2008

I want to know why that picture of Bob on the back of the tandem bike isn’t on their official web-site?

!!CONSCIOUS BEING RIDES BICYCLE!! (almost by himself)

Shouldn’t he be on a uni-cycle? Juggling grapefruit? And what’s with the white cabby hat?

Gosh, he confounds my formatory mind.

91. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

83

“So if a supporter posts anything of reasonable merit they come out in force to “‘debunk” it, for posterity’s sake I guess.”

You guess wrong. You’re entitled to say what you wish. You are not entitled to label what you say as “anything of reasonable merit “, only your audience can deem that. As was mentioned, we’re not the mindless, fearful, sycophantic nodders. If you came for approval of your superior mind and ideas, buddy, you came to the wrong fucking place. I’m sure you can get the approbation you so desperately need from your circle of FOF friends. They’re legendary for swallowing any shit you put in front of them.

92. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

90. Kid Shelleen

“And what’s with the white cabby hat?”

heellloooo….white cabby hat??? What about the fucking clown suit?

93. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

90. Kid Shelleen

There’s a town fool here who dresses like that (though not for the same perverse reason). He’s recently been committed. We can only hope.

94. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

70. somebody

Nice to see women are now represented with the “teacher”.

95. arthur - August 7, 2008

In response to Pavel (71),

An interview by R. A Wilson can be read at the Reality Sandwich website.

96. Mick Danger - August 7, 2008

The blog is very fond of humor and finds it quite relaxing.
(Explanations, while worthwhile, are more burdonsome).

But the next one caught feeding-the-clowns is going to get stomped.

Alice Roosevelt!?
No one’s going to listen to her and she’s not on the list.

97. Ames Gilbert - August 7, 2008

Daily Cardiac, I will now join you in pointing out just some of the good things that happened to me, or rather, that I learned and earned, in the Fellowship. You say you have come to expect brickbats if folks speak well of the experience; I don’t. But if they do, let them fly, and lie, where they may!

I got what I came for, and left. It took me a long while to recognize that what I came for was imaginary, and that which I had been looking at for a long time was exactly what I needed and failed to recognize as such. I thank the experience of the Fellowship for providing the milieu and such amazing obstacles, unnecessary as many of them were. I hasten to say that the unnecessary obstacles taught me much, nevertheless. For example, they taught me that Burton is no true teacher, only by accident, that he had no particular aim in setting up many of the obstacles, and that when he did, they were designed to hide and obfuscate the truth. That is, they helped sleep rather than awakening, hindered rather than helped.

I learned that the ends never justify the means, that they shape the ends. I saw before my very eyes this truth, and because the Fellowship of Friends is a small, isolated group, I saw this truth playing out from beginning to end many times.

I learned that I am connected to everyone. In a larger pond, this might not have been so clear, but in the Fellowship I learned some of the consequences of my actions—and inactions. I learned the rewards of my efforts, and the price of my complicity.

I learned to work hard, physically and mentally. I learned the limits of my cleverness with my hands, and was forced, in self–defense, to learn to use my intellect better. And I learned the limit of my intellect and learned about the wisdom—and stupidity—of groups. I learned to get on with people who I’d normally have avoided, and was forced to realize I had a lot more in common with them than I’d anticipated. All the interactions, good and bad, made me more emotional, and I needed and profited from that.

I am grateful for the new experiences, and for learning the value—and the pitfalls—of working as part of a group pursuing larger goals and ambitions. I helped plant a beautiful vineyard, I helped harvest grapes from the first to the sixteenth, and I tasted the results of my labors, sweeter for knowing how those results came to be. I’m sorry that Burton never realized that when planning any endeavor, one must assign more resources to maintenance than to building. He has never learned that lesson, despite hundreds of opportunities.
Of course, I missed many experiences I would surely have had if I’d not joined, but one can’t be in two places or times simultaneously!

I stopped smoking. In my first year and a half ‘on salary’, working up to eighteen hours a day, and once five days without sleep at all, I had learned to consume three packs of unfiltered cigarettes a day. This was a tremendous gift, and I am forever grateful. I am grateful to have borrowed Burton’s will and used it for my own purpose, and to the many people who went through the initial sufferings with me. I am sorry that success went to Burton’s head and made him more imperiously bold, demanding and unaccountable.

I made new, unusual and interesting friends. This partly makes up for the unusual and interesting friends I gave up when I joined. The good news is that many of the latter were willing to take things up where we left them, and forgive me my trespasses. The bad news is that the former gave me up for good, which is as well, since I had grown to be suspicious and distrustful that they sincerely and unconditionally supported my spiritual welfare.

I saw a flawed and tragic man set himself up as something more than human, and collect others around him to support his fantasy. I saw and engaged in a macabre dance of reflecting masks and personalities that were in no way real or worthwhile. I saw this up close, and consider myself privileged to have studied egoic structures being built where reduction of the ego was preached. I saw the results of a house being built upon the sand. I could not have hoped for such an education, and am truly grateful.

98. ton - August 7, 2008

clown-music…

99. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

97. Ames Gilbert

Nice. Thanks.

100. My4bits - August 7, 2008

re: Daily Cardiac, post 60:

“But where does that leave someone like me? If I got to pick from any reality in the world I would pick the one I am living; I would not change a moment. I’ve had my epiphanies, my meltdowns. I’ve stood face to face with my biggest illusions and fears. And in the end the school has been the affirming principle, the one beacon, in my life.”

Your words resonate with me, DC. I could perhaps have penned this paragraph myself a year or two ago. In deciding to exit the Fellowship, I had to face these same sentiments square on. It required a leap of faith:

— that I could let go of my identification with the school, and that the Path could continue, perhaps revealing a new and broader spiritual vista;

— that I could trust in my own being and esoteric instinct, become my own beacon, and disavow my fear of banishment.

I recently came across a book called “The Tao of Chaos,” by Stephen Wolinsky. He writes that “All psychological systems are born out of resistance to chaos; or an attempt to organize chaos… In other words, we create internal explanations of external reality because we cannot [tolerate] anything that doesn’t make sense.” He goes on to say, “If you expand the context out far enough you will find order in chaos… By including, allowing, and expanding the context of individual chaos, infinitely if necessary, a new order is revealed.”

It’s so clear. For all those years, the Fellowship was for me that “one beacon” because it provided the highly-refined and effective way of resisting chaos that I craved. I loved “the system” for this reason; it could neatly explain almost anything!

Now, I wish to move beyond a limited, defensive “reality,” allow chaos into my life, accept it, revel in it, become it, and in so doing, open myself to an awareness of the underlying order.

101. Daily Cardiac - August 7, 2008

Ames 97,

That’s your reality of RB/FoF, not mine. You are free to think or believe you’ve got the real, or the whole story and I don’t. My words here are based solely on my experiences and are given in as truthful a manner as I can relate them. I don’t think ex-menbers have a corner of the market on the truth, do you? That would be the same thinking as if I said only those making teaching payments when they die will be delivered to Paradise.

As Ellen graciously put it – we can agree to disagree. That would be an upgrade over the heated rhetoric.

102. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 7, 2008

#100: ‘Now, I wish to move beyond a limited, defensive “reality,” allow chaos into my life, accept it, revel in it, become it, and in so doing, open myself to an awareness of the underlying order.’

I really like how that’s stated. Thanks.

103. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

101. Daily Cardiac

“…we can agree to disagree. That would be an upgrade over the heated rhetoric.”

Somebody call the whaaaaambulence.

104. Another Name - August 7, 2008

Dear Daily Cardiac,

I find your name so Freudianic and wonder how you support and cherish your heart. I hope your heart is healthy.

You never responded to my question…to listen to your conscience and to be still inside.

When I read your post here it is as if you know. What have you really verified deep inside your heart, cardiac, your heart, once more your heart…

You say in your last post I guess…… Can’t you share from the heart, what really makes your heart tick…..
.
Especially when you mention the issue of abusing and that you seem to know that Robert abuses people? Are you one of the people who silently or actively support this action, it scares me very much. Especially as in this community there are many children in all ages.

H’ono ponoo to you and all of you here.

105. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 7, 2008

97 Ames

…thanks, and to add a few lessons my membership in the Fellowship of Friends helped me learn:

1) that I was unhappy because I could not accept myself as I was, so I was attracted to a situation in which I could more easily imagine that I was not only acceptable, but superior to almost everyone else on the planet, and that this was childish;

2) that I had issues with my father, and it was easier for me to adopt a seemingly kindly, seemingly accepting, seemingly perfect father-figure than do the difficult work of relating to the father I had–who I later realized was far more mature, courageous, and loving than the self-serving fop I’d tried to replace him with;

3) that Truth is instantly accessible, but there are no shortcuts;

4) that adopting the attitude that all that matters is my own “evolution,” and that what happens to others is their problem, when properly understood leads to compassion for others demonstrated through action and a loss of concern for one’s “self,” and when improperly understood leads to a grostesque perversion of “spirituality”–in fact, its opposite;

5) that it actually does matter whether a person, in his private as well as public behavior, tries to be scrupulously honest, refuses to take advantage of those who are gullible or vulnerable, and tries to serve the interests of others without thought for personal gain of any kind;

6) that absolute power really does corrupt absolutely;

7) that there is no connection between artistic taste and emotional maturity or any other desirable quality;

8) that when a person consistently acts in a way that appears to lack character, such as being greedy, it’s because he’s greedy, and not because he is trying to teach me something;

9) that the belief that all that ultimately matters is being present comes from the ego and strengthens it;

10) that the belief, hope, or expectation that I will awaken is a hoax perpetrated by the ego in order to strengthen itself;

11) that no amount of money, physical labor, emotional suffering, or struggling to be present will ever be sufficient.

106. Daily Cardiac - August 7, 2008

To Bruce 91:

You’re a big advocate of telling it like you see it. Does that rule only apply to your comments? If someone obviously twists my words to turn them back on themselves, simply to turn a positive statement into a negative one, I ought to have the right to call them on it, shouldn’t I ?

If someone wants to author a negative statement about RB/FoF it would not seem that they need to twist my words, an obvious supporter’s, to make their point. It’s a juvenile game.

I certainly don’t expect a free ride. What I expect is that people will offer intelligent insights that represent a different viewpoint from mine if they do disagree. That’s all I’m attempting to do.

107. Yesri Baba - August 7, 2008

83

A perceived wrong is no different than an actual wrong if it is perceived by someone as a wrong. I saw a tee shirt recently that stated “Perception is Reality” In my mind that’s not always true; perception is perception and reality is reality. If one’s perception is accurate it can be close to or the same as reality (what I consider the third state).

———- ————- —-

You see, that is the problem. You guys keep thinking that there is somewhere to get to- there ain’t. You think RB has got there and that is what he wants you to think. You think the ‘3rd state’ shows you reality but it shows you are a dream with a lot of nowhere around it.
It just boggles to try to get people to realise that they are not going to ‘see’ something or they are not going to ‘get’ something or some where. As Will Coyote said about the Sufi’s- ‘states’ are an intoxication and you are stateoholics.

—————————————————

Another thing I would like to address is this ‘higher centers’ fantasy bullshit. The subtle being ‘bodies’ which I call the ‘lucid’ and the ‘firm’. They are there always functioning just like your heartbeat and breathing. I don’t know too much about them just like I don’t know too much about anything.

Non-dualists are not saying there is a soul already there and we need to uncover it. They are saying that our individuality, our feeling of being a separate entity is a delusion created out of undifferentiated primordial consciousness by the force of this world. They say if we keep following that separate ‘I’ back to its source the delusion will become transparent and we will realise our true nature.

108. My4bits - August 7, 2008

Daily Cardiac, post 106:

What I see, DC, is that you are impervious to intelligent insights that represent a different viewpoint than your own. You thereby assure yourself of a “free ride” in bolstering your deeply-held attitudes and buffer this fact by focusing on “negative” or heated commentary. You only demonstrate the subjective efficacy of a chaos-reducing system such as the FoF.

109. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

Cardiac… You seem to believe that it’s helpful to participate here, or you wouldn’t be contributing, and you sound like you’re pretty unhappy with the way people are offering their differing viewpoints (“heated rhetoric” you call it).

If that’s the case, why wouldn’t you encourage people in the FOF to participate in a similar such discussion to talk about the same issues? If you think things are bad here (“heated rhetoric”), and that things are better in the FOF (the lack of “heated rhetoric”), why not find a way to do the same thing in the FOF.

Of course, the answer is that it’s not allowed. But don’t you think there’s something seriously wrong that such a discussion wouldn’t be allowed?

If not, why waste your time here? What your game?

Will you keep ignoring that point? or will you once again move on to something other topic?

110. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

some other topic. 🙂

And the answer is yes, you will.

111. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

106

“I certainly don’t expect a free ride. What I expect is that people will offer intelligent insights that represent a different viewpoint from mine if they do disagree. That’s all I’m attempting to do.”

Seems to me that’s exactly what you are receiving.

112. Yesri Baba - August 7, 2008

99
97
Ditto

113. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

106. Daily Cardiac

You can’t pick and choose the responses to your posts, other than not reading them, unlike the FOF where they are often manipulated to the point of unrecognizability to suit an agenda. It’s dishonest to yourself to hear only what coincides with what you want to hear.

114. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

Some people are responding to your posts in a pretty magnanimous way, whereas you often skirt the salient issues and avoid any “real” dialog on the important subjects. More often than not you just skip insights as if they never occurred. And I don’t blame you completely, that’s the MO of the FOF. If it’s ignored it was never said. And where DID that student go who said what was never said?

115. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

106. Daily Cardiac

And why don’t you just go back to your old nom de plume. Aren’t you the person with the lesbian wife that made all the same arguments, including the dislike of “heated rhetoric”?

116. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

106. Daily Cardiac

…do you think we’re fucking morons? (loaded question).

117. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

Fat Boy, that’s the name.

118. ton - August 7, 2008

117
i see, it makes sense now, the fat boy is having a cardiac.

97 ames thank you.

119. Innernaut - August 7, 2008

The problem with conversing with Daily Card is that it’s a lopsided discussion. I said it on the first blog page, and I’ll say it again. Ex-members know exactly where DC is coming from, because we’ve all been there — fully indoctrinated, twisting every thought and insight to conform with the synthetic, false viewpoint of “evolving student in the Fellowship of Friends.” But DC has not left the FOF, and has not gone through the process of moving beyond the indoctrination. In words DC would understand, he does not have “being” in being a former member. Therefore, we have a perspective that he can only gain by leaving — something that hasn’t happened yet, and which he confidently predicts will never happen (something we all probably did as well at some point). It’s not a level playing field, and until he leaves and restores his mind to normalcy, no real communication can happen.

120. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 7, 2008

119 innernaut

And what purpose would be served by trying to discuss the FOF with him? I was a member, I knew RB, I know the routine–and that was before it degenerated into the laughingstock it has become. As DC said very clearly, membership works for him. He’s comfortable that all of his efforts and time and money are a good investment. Having been there, done that, I’m not curious about the benefits of membership, and he’s not wondering whether any of his core assumptions might be mistaken. He and I have nothing to offer each other.

121. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

119. Innernaut

That’s true.

120. Just Another Voice Out Here

Even more true.

122. Innernaut - August 7, 2008

Having said that, going through the exercise of knocking down DC’s straw men may benefit fence sitters and prospective members (if there are any more at this rather ridiculous phase of the FOF). I’m not saying anyone shouldn’t converse with DC. Just that we shouldn’t have any illusions about its efficacy in his case.

123. will coyote - August 7, 2008

I (with my poor english,so try to make one effort to understand what i try to communicate you) am going out for a short period of time from my only school of evolution, perhaps my only possibility of awakening. Why ? Because in my school one of the most fundamental things is the group, working with others so I can take from their osservations some for my evolution. When many friends brothers in the way went out I start to investigate why my brothers loose their opportunity and have to die how dogs. I begin to see that there are many sects , that use mental manipolation, But I feel I was luky and with a wellformed magnetic center. But i am a searcher of truth so go on to investigate, trying to talk with my brothers ,if maybe we made identification with the school and not real work. They answer me that Master knows better than me. So I wrote to my Master. No reply. So i decide to looks for myself. If we are in one school do we have the responsability of the others. So agree or not agree is not an opinion, some for talking. No we have to understand. With Love brother.

124. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

Innernaut 122.

Right, for the most part, I think people are responding to DC, HC, LAF, etc., to present a counter viewpoint to the same ole FOF dogma that we heard in the FOF.

The conversation with DC doesn’t necessarily imply the need to change his thinking. My view is maybe a bit different than most here. I really don’t think he believes a lot of what he’s saying. It’s part of a PR effort — and it’s similar to what happened during the editing war with the wikipedia article. When money, power, and a way of life are at stake, people need to step in for damage control. It’s pretty natural. I’d be surprised if the FOF didn’t give someone the task — at least occasionally — of countering the dissent and criticism that the FOF is receiving here. I’m sure there’s plenty of concern, even if it’s true that current members blissfully mingled and sipped wine during the Journey Forth thingamabob.

Whether DC was given the task to obfuscate on the blog, who knows. But it’s not a far-fetched idea. In the corporate world, there are countless blogs where customers and competitors can chime in to criticize a company’s products, or its philosophy, or its agenda, etc. Each and every company makes an effort to respond in some way, or they’d be out of business. That’s what PR is all about. The Fellowhip may not call it that, but they do have a PR Department.

Or as it’s been called by some “organizations,” a Ministry of Propaganda.

125. ton - August 7, 2008

119 innernaut
“Therefore, we have a perspective that he can only gain by leaving — something that hasn’t happened yet, and which he confidently predicts will never happen (something we all probably did as well at some point).”

this might explain why he spends time and energy here… attempting to gather the courage to leave… or not.

126. elena - August 7, 2008

Daily Cardiac: “I certainly don’t expect a free ride. What I expect is that people will offer intelligent insights that represent a different viewpoint from mine if they do disagree. That’s all I’m attempting to do”.

So when you’re presented with these what stops you from considering them, talking about them? Hasn’t the blog been presenting you with them for over a year? Why do you avoid them?

What did you think about the fact that there is no lower self in the fourth way system? It is strictly Robert Burton terminology?

127. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

123. will coyote

I’m not buying it friend.

128. brucelevy - August 7, 2008

124. Rear View Mirror

I think it was called “Journey Forth by Day, Bend over by Night, be Broke by morning”.

129. nigel harris price - August 7, 2008

A hell-of-a-lotta-blogs today (07 August). I had a long day at my workshop. I will get back to you in the morning (GMT)……….Nigel.

130. elena - August 7, 2008

Bruce, Whalerider and others here, I beleive Ryan McCarty, tel: 749 4707 is in need of connecting with real boy’s stories so that his “source” is not just an angry wife’s story. He does not need to quote people’s name on the article if you don’t want that, he just needs to confront the issues with enough people. I’ve mentioned your names and false names but he’d like to talk. I don’t have your phone numbers any more so it would be easier if you care to call him. He’s digging as much as he can but he seems tired of being the first force which makes sense.

131. paulshabram - August 7, 2008

D.C.
will coyote and others bring up an interesting question:

Do you think you are identified with the FOF and RB’s teaching? As a corollary: Could I identify you as a member of the FOF if I met you (having been a member of the “inner circle” myself and I didn’t already know you)?

Please do not be formatory and answer these questions with questions, and “I have no idea” is a really bad answer to these questions (nearly as bad as not answering at all).

132. Rear View Mirror - August 7, 2008

128. brucelevy
“I think it was called “Journey Forth by Day, Bend over by Night, be Broke by morning”.”

And what a great way to scope out the young male “talent”. Bring ’em all to his front door.

And I wouldn’t be surprised if the auctions and raffles pay for the airfare.

133. X-ray - August 7, 2008

132. Rear View Mirror
And I wouldn’t be surprised if the auctions and raffles pay for the airfare.

and the ‘service’.

134. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

130. elena

Done. Thanks.

135. paulshabram - August 8, 2008

127 Bruce
How’s this translation?

” (with my poor english, try to make an effort to understand what i am trying to communicate). I have been out of the FOF for a short period of time. I thought it was the only school of evolution, and perhaps my only possibility of awakening. Why did I leave? Because to me the most important thing is the group itself, working with others so I can take from their observations something for my own evolution. When many of my friends (brothers) in the FOF left, I started to investigate why they left (and in doing so lost their opportunity and become “food for the Moon”). I began to see that there are many cults that use mental manipulation. But I feel I was lucky and had a wellformed magnetic center. Still, i am a searcher of truth so I went on to investigate, saying to my brothers, “Maybe we were identified with the school and not really working”. They told me that RB knows best. So I wrote to RB and got no reply. I decided to look for myself. If we are in a school do we not have the responsibility for others. So whether we agree or do not agree about what is said here is not “IT”. Opinions are not enough. No, we have to understand.

With Love brother.”

136. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

135. paulshabram

Thanks. But my point here was that we have had, in the past, several posters (might have been the same person) whose faux disability with the english language turned out to be pure subterfuge, and whose initial posts were very innocent sounding, and soon turned to justification of all and everything in the FOF. . I definitely could be wrong here, but I wouldn’t be surprised is there’s a follow up post complaining about my lack of compassion for a non-english speaker, that will miraculously contain phrases that give away another “lie” as far as the inability to speak the language. Call me cynical.

137. Bares Reposting - August 8, 2008

80. Rear View Mirror – August 7, 2008:

‘…my viewpoints and opinions on the FOF are definitely going through some adjustments as time goes on.’

Exactly as one would expect by viewing one’s life as a scenario through the Rear View Mirror (as in a car) as one increases one’s distance from the place one is leaving behind.

138. Bares Reposting - August 8, 2008

Rear View Mirror:

Maybe it is time to stop living life as though seen through the Rear View Mirror and begin to focus on what’s ahead/in front of you/us.

139. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 8, 2008

129 Nigel: A hell-of-a-lotta-blogs today (07 August). I had a long day at my workshop. I will get back to you in the morning (GMT)……….Nigel.

Nigel you are out of touch. Now it would be called ‘hellablogs’.

140. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

The Gods have spoken to me and have given me guidance. My apologies to Will Cayote.

141. My4bits - August 8, 2008

Bared Reposting and RVM, post 138:

The message is:

“OBJECTS IN MIRROR ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR”

Yikes~! I’m outtahere.

142. paulshabram - August 8, 2008

70. Somebody
Captions for the photos
1. “Gawd I’m cute”
or
1. “Mmmm, there’s nothing like a freshly shorn scrotum. Mini Me, you complete me.”

2. ” No, i like them a little fatter, a little longer, and not quite so many bumpy things.”

3. “Why didn’t I get a bell too?”

4.”Eenee meenee Minee…? Eenee, meenee, minee… What comes after minee?”

5. “Some of these things are just like the other…”

143. Ames Gilbert - August 8, 2008

Daily Cardiac (#43-101 or thereabouts),
You are as free as I am to post whatever you want. Your posting may attract consequences, as mine do. I have never claimed that I “have the real, or whole story and you don’t”. Wherever did you get that idea? And I certainly don’t think that ex-followers have the corner on the truth, whatever that is. What I do know is that ex-followers have some experiences (mileage varies) that you cannot possibly have, which is that of leaving and continuing to learn about life outside the Fellowship of Friends. And not only that, but spiritually prosper.

One of my freedoms is to point out fallacies, logical inconsistencies and lies in some of your statements; this is a gift, which you may accept or reject or act on as you see fit. That is one of your freedoms. But I didn’t make the effort for you alone, it is for any chance reader who is open to profiting from what I have learned and any insights I may offer.

Funny you should mention, “…as if I said only those making teaching payments when they die will be delivered to Paradise.”
Your teacher, Robert Burton, made some interesting claims in this regard when he told James B. to send the infamous letter to Sharole Mannering, who was dying at the time. The full text of this letter has already been posted on this blog, so I won’t repeat it, but basically Burton said that if her teaching payments were not current at the time she died, she would go straight to hell.

Cardiac, I don’t expect to ‘change your mind’. Actually, I’d be rather appalled and even revolted if you did, just because of some words I wrote. I’ve invited you to inspect some of your premises. I, and others, have tried to point out in your words what is premise, what is verifiable, and what is not, together with hints on how to proceed. We’ve invited you to explore where you got some of your beliefs and opinions, just as we did. You’ve invited us to do the same, and I thank you. That’s as far as it can go. I wish you luck.

144. Rear View Mirror - August 8, 2008

Bares Reposting: “Maybe it is time to stop living life as though seen through the Rear View Mirror and begin to focus on what’s ahead/in front of you/us.”

Definitely it’s time!

145. Ill Never Tell - August 8, 2008

Re: 98. ton – August 7, 2008

‘clown-music… ‘

– – – – – –
Re: 70 somebody picture #3:

Send in the clowns;
or is that: send in the clones?:
Am I seeing double here?
Is that 2 clowns I see?
Or is it a clown clone
or a clone clown?
Better ask Lewis Carroll
to figure this one out.
The hookah smoking
caterpillar would know!

Here’s a video for that
Bicycle Built for Two:
2001 Space Odyssey:
Daisy Bell Bicycle Built
for Two segment:

Daisy: HAL’s death,
2001: Space Odyssey 6:15:

A.K.A. David and Goliath

When is the HAL -i- Burton
going to shut down?
HAL -i- Burton is obviously
playing with a few of those cards removed from the computer rack panel.
By Jove! Is that a Mercedes
or a Lexus tandem bicycle?

Naaah, I really didn’t mean it;
just clowning around.

146. X-ray - August 8, 2008

143. Ames Gilbert
‘Burton said that if her teaching payments were not current at the time she died, she would go straight to hell.”

and that is the true face of Robert Burton.

147. Daily Cardiac - August 8, 2008

To All:

There’s been a recent flurry of responses to some of my posts. This is an attempt to address some of the issues. People have suggested I don’t respond to the difficult questions. There is some truth to that; but it’s not to avoid the difficult questions. It’s more a matter of logistics.

Right now I’m the only supporter posting for the last few days. Seems like LaF and Vinny have taken a holiday. When was the last time anyone remembers one of Bruce’s or Innernaut’s posts getting 5 to 10 responses by people attempting to “deconstruct” them, all of them expecting a reply? It probably has not happened before. So if I post 3 times I might get 20 different replies disagreeing with me. If I attempt to answer all of them that’s my whole evening. My life is not on hold for the blog; I have other commitments and responsibilities. So I do what I can.

One of the main barriers to critical thinking is when Ad Hominem enters into the picture. And that is the main dynamic that operates when ex-students reply to current students. As someone who is on the receiving end of it I would be more inclined to notice it than the ones it’s emanating from. You remember the ones who owe you money more than the ones you owe money to.

Ad Hominem is when someone is closed off to any voice coming from a particular organization or source. Any comment coming from that source is immediately discounted or attacked. Any FoF supporter who posts here is ultimately seen as a proxy of Robert Burton and is addressed as such. I’m not suggesting everyone is doing this but a goodly number are. If you are one of them it’s easy to justify and hard to notice.

But if anyone reads some of the longer posts I’ve been writing to Traveler or Ellen they cover a good deal of my thoughts and feelings about many issues here. I would suggest they contain many of the same answers I would give anew.

One of the main tendencies in the thinking of some ex-students on this blog is that they have ruled out the possibility that the FoF is legitimate, or that anyone can profit on an ongoing basis from being a member. They are basing this solely on their own experience, not on any outside evidence. So in effect they are saying I have had the only kind of experience possible there, so if you had one that is substantially different than mine then the error or fraud lies with you, not me.

I’m here to comment on my experience and reality within the FoF, not on what someone tells me I should be experiencing simply because it was what they experienced. Generally we don’t write off someone who loves a movie we hated, but when the stakes get higher we react very differently to opposing viewpoints.

If someone wants to disagree with my viewpoint that’s one thing. If they tell me I am not entitled to my reality just because theirs is or was different then they loose a good deal of credibility in my eyes. If someone wants to think of me as a laggard, someone who has not yet arrived at the point they were when they left, as Innernaut suggested, it’s fine with me if they think that. All I can tell them is I’m a member because the FoF works for me. We all came looking for something. Some do find what they came for and value that. Some are willing to make the payment to buy that. I’m not here to judge anyone; I’m just trying to record a glimpse of my particular journey as a member of FoF, who in all likelihood will remain a member.

When someone becomes irritated or angry because another‘s reality is different it’s an opportunity to look into the irritation. There’s often an underlying issue. When doctors press and probe and they touch a sore spot it hurts and we react to the pain. The pain is not without but within. The pain is not coming from the doctor, he is simply uncovering a problem area. I would think a true seeker would value different viewpoints.They are looking for the truth and they want to uncover anything that illuminates any part of the truth. They want the truth at any cost, even if that truth runs counter to their present beliefs. Those people don’t become irritated by opposing views; they become more curious and want to investigate, to engage.

A few, like Travler, Ellen, Vena have engaged me in an honest attempt to hear my viewpoint and I do appreciate it. The blog is better because of their openness and grounded natures.

Traveler – a lot of brush fires, but it’s coming.

148. lauralupa - August 8, 2008

Pavel 71
“So glad that someone here would quote R.A. Wilson, he probably affected my thinking more than anyone else I have yet read.”

Yes, I have been affected too! For the curious ones who are not familiar with RAW, here is a small sample of his ideas from an interview at http://www.mungbeing.com/issue_1.html?page=21:

“Q-It seems a lot of your writings have really connected with people, and perhaps even influenced their thinking and activities. Because of this effect on your fan base, some have suggested you to be a “cult figure.” To make a clever little RAW-like slide here, this seems appropriate, given your early participation in the Discordian Society and your many writings on the Illuminati (a secret cult that may or may not exist.) Surfing the web one may find Discordian groups and references to Eris, golden apples, the Law of the Fives, the number 23, as well as other related ideas. Memes you sent out into the world twenty, thirty years ago continue to thrive and flourish. How do you feel about this legacy of having seeded such a diversity of eclectic memes?

RAW-It’s both pleasing and flattering, of course, but I’ll feel much happier when Maybe Logic, the Snafu Law and the Cosmic Schmuck Law get seeded just as widely, or even more widely.

Q-Let’s seed them more widely right here! Can you explain to our readers what (Maybe Logic, the Snafu Law and the Cosmic Schmuck Law) are?

RAW-Maybe Logic is a label that got stuck on my ideas by filmmaker Lance Bauscher. I decided it fits. I certainly recognize the central importance in my thinking — or in my stumbling and fumbling efforts to think — of non-Aristotelian systems. That includes von Neumann’s three-valued logic [true, false, maybe], Rappoport’s four-valued logic [true, false, indeterminate, meaningless], Korzybski’s multi-valued logic [degrees of probability.] and also Mahayana Buddhist paradoxical logic [it “is” A. it “is” not A, it “is” both A and not A, it “is” neither A nor not A]. But, as an extraordinarily stupid fellow, I can’t use such systems until I reduce them to terms a simple mind like mine can handle, so I just preach that we’d all think and act more sanely if we had to use “maybe” a lot more often. Can you imagine a world with Jerry Falwell hollering “Maybe Jesus ‘was’ the son of God and maybe he hates Gay people as much as I do” — or every tower in Islam resounding with “There ‘is’ no God except maybe Allah and maybe Mohammed is his prophet”?
The Snafu law holds that, the greater your power to punish, the less factual feedback you will receive. If you can fire people for telling you what you don’t want to hear, you will only hear what you want. This law seems to apply to all authoritarian contraptions, especially governments and corporations. Concretely, I suspect Bozo knows factually less about the world than any dogcatcher in Biloxi. The Cosmic Schmuck law holds that [1] the more often you suspect you may be thinking or acting like a Cosmic Schmuck, the less of a Cosmic Schmuck you will become, year by year, and [2] if you never suspect you might think or act like a Cosmic Schmuck, you will remain a Cosmic Schmuck for life.

Q-You’ve written extensively on (and found new applications for) various scientific theories, particularly in the field of quantum mechanics. Yet you’ve maintained a critical distance from the scientific establishment, a kind of heretical voice and a sceptic of scepticism. You often cite Dr. Wilhelm Reich’s story as an example of authority run amok. The US government destroyed much of Dr. Reich’s controversial work, and nobody, particularly fellow scientists, stepped forward in protest or defence. Science is supposed to be about innovation, yet few scientists seem able to revise their pet theories once they’ve been accepted. I think this is why many found it shocking when Stephen Hawking recently stepped out and said, “I was wrong about black holes.” Nobody is used to respected figures revising or chucking out their strongly-held beliefs. What is the importance of heresy, scepticism and unorthodox ideation to the advancement of science?

RAW-Let me differentiate between scientific method and the neurology of the individual scientist. Scientific method has always depended on feedback [or flip-flopping as the Tsarists call it]; I therefore consider it the highest form of group intelligence thus far evolved on this backward planet. The individual scientist seems a different animal entirely. The ones I’ve met seem as passionate, and hence as egotistic and prejudiced, as painters, ballerinas or even, God save the mark, novelists. My hope lies in the feedback system itself, not in any alleged saintliness of the individuals in the system.

Q-You’re a self-described model agnostic, and you’ve deconstructed all manner of belief systems (BS) in your books. In Prometheus Rising, you encouraged people to consciously enter as many different reality tunnels as possible, to examine their beliefs from multiple viewpoints. Human culture is filled with people zealously attached to various orthodoxies and ideologies. The clash of fundamental belief systems has often proven destructive to humankind. What will it take to shake people from their dogmas?

RAW-In a word, Internet. Ever since I read Wiener’s Cybernetics: Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine back in 1948 I’ve thought of “intelligence” as a function of feedback. The more feedback, the higher the measurable “intelligence,” and the less feedback, the less “intelligence.” As the computer gave birth to the Net and the Web, feedback has increased exponentially. As R.U. Sirius wrote recently, “The rise of the Net and the Web represents a victory for the counterculture and the subculture. The next generation, raised on the Net as their primary medium, won’t even know what consensus reality is.” In other words, feedback and Maybe Logic form a circle that spins faster and faster. The Tsarists fear and hate it — they call it “flip-flopping” — but it characterizes all high intelligence systems, electronic or protoplasmic.

Q-I agree that the internet seems to be a product of such an accelerated feedback system. This is something we can witness with every single online interaction. Now, there has been a lot of talk post-9.11 of an ominous totalitarian spectre looming over us, that Orwell’s Big Brother is finally here. There are conspiriologists who believe that the internet, having risen from the Pentagon, has never been anything more than a Big Brotherist plot, and that folks like RU Sirius, John Perry Barlow and other Information Age philosophers are dupes (un)knowingly(?) providing a libertarian facade for this vast conspiracy. What if the internet is nothing more than the latest Tsarist method of control and information gathering?

RAW-Well, then we’re sunk, ain’t we? Fortunately, there exists no logical or factual reason to believe that paranoid fantasy, and it is directly contradicted by the hard mathematics of Wiener and Shannon on “redundance of control” in feedback systems. What Juang Jou said of the universe 2400 years ago is even more true of the 4,285,199,774 computer URLs online today – [21 August 2004] -“there is no governor anywhere.”

Q-It seems that there is massive, widespread public mistrust and disgust in politics and government, not only in the USA but in many parts of the world. Why are citizens so loyal to systems and leaders they admittedly have no respect for?

RAW-Raymond Chandler, who served as a lieutenant of infantry in World War I, pointed out the same paradox on a smaller scale: in charging an enemy, troops are statistically safer if scattered broadly, but they all show a tendency to bunch together near the lieutenant, thereby increasing their risk. This seems a hardwired [even premammalian] vertebrate program. On top of that we’ve got the 7000+ years of authoritarian conditioning documented by Reich. Seems rather bleak, doesn’t it? My optimism rests on the fact that, historically, in emergency, people often mutate in unpredictable and creative ways. As John Adams said, the American Revolution took place “in the minds of the people in the 15 years before the first shot was fired.” I suspect a similar revolution is occurring in the minds of educated people worldwide.

Q-Across the post-election landscape, there has been much talk of a “divided America,” with pundits drawing a hard line between “blue states” and “red states.” Is this line illusory?

RAW-I suspect all lines exist only in our minds — especially political lines. Universe seems more like waltzing chaos than like an account book.

Q-You are well known for your work exploring speculative theories and esoterica. In books like Sex and Drugs and the Cosmic Trigger series, you wrote of experimentation with occult magick. Reflecting upon your numerous forays into these strange worlds where Science fears to tread, what are the most interesting “secrets” you discovered?

RAW-The same that I simultaneously discovered in Buddhism and quantum physics: namely, the alleged “wall” between “me” and “the world” does not exist at all. Clearing thought and language of that fictitious split adds immeasurably to clarity. Oh, yes, and it improves your sense of humor, too!”

149. ton - August 8, 2008

cardiac, you are being played and the tune is all too familiar. good luck with your so-called “prophet”

“One of the main tendencies in the thinking of some ex-students on this blog is that they have ruled out the possibility that the FoF is legitimate, or that anyone can profit on an ongoing basis from being a member.”

150. ton - August 8, 2008

145 never tell
i like hal’s version of daisy bell, it’s more demented… and a more fitting soundtrack for this sad, demented clown.

paul 142
“What comes after minee?”
hey moe, hey larry….
is pie served at “the galleria”?

151. Ellen - August 8, 2008

Ames #97
Good post. Thank you.
Also the addendum #105 JAVOH
I hope – and I think it is true – that what we say here is heard by other ears than just those hanging on the head of Daily Cardiac. Everyone then has a chance to think and feel for themselves.
******************************************************************
I read this passage yesterday from Nisargadatta: “All the Yogas, whatever their source and character, have only one aim: to save you from the calamity of a separate existence, of being a meaningless dot in a vast and beautiful picture”.

Wonderful! So, non-duality is the essence of all Schools, Yogas, Teachings, etc…! Sounds much better than the Sequence to me.

#79 WULSWU
Thanks for that. Yes, I do think it comes down to semantics. One way I look at the confusion around the topic of efforts is from the viewpoint of levels.

The Fourth Way essentially attributes the energetic possibilites for the life of man to the levels of 96, 48, 24 then 12 and 6 (with luck and “special circumstances”).

In Advaita Vedanta, as a direct path of non-duality, the focus begins in a location already off the Fourth Way charts: World 3, the Absolute and beyond. Reading Nisargadatta is a real mind-melt. So, for such extremely subtle vibrations, the concept of gross efforts is incongruent. It certainly doesn’t mean that there are no efforts, but the subtlety of the vibrations requires great insight and intuition – and that is the effort.

It is clear to me that Daily Cardiac can’t understand these higher levels, and is not interested to do so, is satisfied with his/her situation. It’s a bit like a townsman, waving goodbye to Christopher Colombus and his crew. Then retiring to the pub with his buddies, to knock back a few shots of juice, sure of his own understanding, and maybe a little sad to see his friends sailing off to a sure demise, yet comforted in what he knows to be true.

But history proved otherwise.

As it will also prove the Phallacy of the Fellowship.

152. Ellen - August 8, 2008

#80 RVM
Thanks for your thoughts on this “effort” thread, too.

“But “effort” can be defined quite a bit differently. Openness/receptivity: just one example. Getting into that “state” is an effort. I could easily write quite a bit more on this.”

I’m all ears.

153. Ill Never Tell - August 8, 2008

118. ton – August 7, 2008

‘117
i see, it makes sense now, the fat boy is having a cardiac.’

Yes, cardiac arrest, i.e. broken heart.

154. lauralupa - August 8, 2008

As an experiment I have applied a bit of Maybe Logic to some of RB’s “teaching” statements. It’s remarkable what difference a word makes. Maybe.

Jan 12, 2003_I feel our good fortune quite deeply this morning. Maybe we are at the dawn of another year of working with the Gods. Maybe we have been chosen out of six billion people to consciously evolve.

Jan 26, 2003:_I do not think; maybe I am present. Therefore maybe I am —a conscious being.

Feb 02, 2003_I find it unique that maybe I am the first man in history who asked for “Presence Please” from his students.

April 6, 2003_Maybe it is within my power to make my students immortal, and maybe it cannot be achieved in any way other than that which the Gods dictate. Maybe immortality is yours,—maybe you just have to accept their methods. Maybe you cannot expect to have a normal life with Gods in your life, because it may be already abnormal to have Gods in one’s life.

Nov 2, 2003_Curiously, maybe we are the only people on the Earth attempting to stay out of imagination.

Nov 23, 2003_I cannot think of anything more important that I will do with my eternal life than maybe helping my students escape. Although maybe I have all eternity before me, maybe the work I am doing now is the most important I will ever do.

June 13, 2004_We have a new religion: self-remembering and maybe working with the forty-four Gods. It may be the highest religion ever given to man.

June 13, 2004_As your teacher, maybe I can see Influence C’s plans. Maybe I can see the part in you that counts.

August 7, 2005_It is incredible to see that maybe Gurdjieff and Ouspensky missed, while maybe we have gotten it right.

etcetera…
One question to DC and other current members: what difference do you think it would make to you if Robert spoke in terms of possibilities instead of certainties?

155. Pavel - August 8, 2008

148 is newly moderated.

Lauralupa: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

156. Pavel - August 8, 2008

I have come back from my holiday yesterday with a clear answer to whether I will stay here as a moderator or not. I don’t feel that the blog is my calling at the moment, it appears that we have both given each other what we were ready to take and it’s time for me to move on and for the blog to evolve further without me (I absolutely love what has happened with it in the past 2/3 months). It would be unnecessarily arrogant for me to believe that the blog requires me for its running or maintenance, yet it does require a moderator.

I will be passing the moderation duty and responsibility to Steve, I do not know yet when the actual giving over will take place (I will be moderating for a while longer) but it will be in the near future. I am extremely confident that Steve will do a great job.

157. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

156 Pavel
Thank you for your ‘gift’ of the blog-site and also your confidence in Steve. Good luck in all your ventures…..Nigel.

158. lauralupa - August 8, 2008

Pavel 155, 156
Dearest Pavel, you are most welcome.
I will never be able to thank you enough for all that you have given me and everyone else here.

159. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

147 Daily Cardiac
I don’t think you are listening to yourself when you post on this blog-site. You seem to assume that ex-students are ‘pulling down’ your ‘confidence’ in the FOF being able to produce consciousness, presence, souls, selves etc. What you are actually doing is the other way round. The FOF ‘high-ups’ (Burton, GH and others) have told you that there are no possibilities outside the cult and you go along with that in your posts, calling what you say is defense being an actual attack on ex-members. I am hoping (and I have already given my story of how I have used my ‘play’ to create Real I, The Master or The Self out of my Essence Possibilites – you may wish to scroll back some way) you will listen to the stories of other ex-members and how they are finding confidence in their lives as Essential Humans, having been confronted with the initial sense of failure and disappointment they experienced after leaving the FOF. I look forward to your replies, not only, maybe, to this post, but also to in your ‘refreshed’ (hopefully) attitude to other bloggers…..Nigel.

160. Ellen - August 8, 2008

#156, Pavel,

Thank you, thank you, thank you…

May God bless and keep you always
May your wishes all come true
May you always do for others
And let others do for you
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young.

May you grow up to be righteous
May you grow up to be true
May you always know the truth
And see the lights surrounding you
May you always be courageous
Stand upright and be strong
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young.

May your hands always be busy
May your feet always be swift
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift
May your heart always be joyful
And may your song always be sung
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young.

(Bob Dylan)

161. Mick Danger - August 8, 2008

(147) He’s right.
“Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics.”
When we’re done dancing to daily-fucking-idiots tune,
maybe we can think of some nice things to say about other
depraved despots and their corrupt regimes.
Caligula comes to mind.

162. Mick Danger - August 8, 2008

(160) Thanks to Bob, Ellen & Paval.
With Blog on our side.

163. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

161 Mick Danger
Sorry, Mick, but that is just going to make him ‘dig his heels in’..Nigel.

164. arthur - August 8, 2008

Dear Pavel,

Thanks for going to the “Prospective Student Meeting” and writing about it on the Net.

Some of us did undergo a sea-change in attitude about the Fellowship of Friends and for that we are eternally grateful.

165. Innernaut - August 8, 2008

Thanks Pavel. You’re awesome. Check in from time to time.

DC — You are right that I think that you are lagging behind, and that I possess something you don’t. It is impossible for me to make you see it though — you have to come to that point yourself. Maybe you never will, and that will be a tragic loss. The thing is, what you feel you are getting from the Fellowship — at least regarding evolution, states, the chance to make efforts that will create a soul — these things are wholly illusory. You are chasing your tail — it doesn’t lead anywhere. I don’t doubt that you are satisfied and happy, and may have many good friends. But the other stuff is a mind game, and you play it to the detriment of your larger self.

I think one of the things people find frustrating is that you can’t seem to see Robert and Girard objectively. If you could see them for what they really are — and not through the veil of projection and imagination — you would see that they hold nothing that anyone would strive toward. They are just not good models of what a human being can be. So if they aren’t (I realize you don’t agree with this premise right now), then where do you expect this journey of yours to take you? They are both very messed up. This is what you are heading toward, if you’re going anywhere at all.

166. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

165 Innernaut
That was more objective…..Nigel.

167. Mick Danger - August 8, 2008

(163) The piper plays but we don’t have to dance.

168. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

And to all – I think we have to wait until DC has finished his/her daily octaves until we get replies…..Nigel.

169. Daily Cardiac - August 8, 2008

Ellen 151:

Nisargadatta: “All the Yogas, whatever their source and character, have only one aim: to save you from the calamity of a separate existence, of being a meaningless dot in a vast and beautiful picture”.

How do the Yogi’s do this, i.e. save you? If you are not saved it implies something is out of order. What steps change things for you, what do you have to do differently to be “saved” ? How are you different after you are saved, how long does it take to be saved? Why do you need someone to tell you you are not saved?

170. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

169 Daily Cardiac
God – talk about a formatory response – and maybe DC is the ‘official FOF blogger’?! Are you GH, DC?

171. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

P.S. the whole point is that you do not have to be ‘saved’!

172. will coyote - August 8, 2008

paulshabram135. – August 8, 2008 Thank you a lot .
I want be sure that this:
“I decided to look for myself If we are in a school do we not have the responsibility for others. So whether we agree or do not agree about what is said here is not “IT”. Opinions are not enough. No, we have to understand. “
Means :The bodhisattwa vow. An evolution that is not mutual evolution is egotrip.
Just one thing on duality and non duality way: G. somewhere says that God is too much for us;
that at the beginning our natural father is our God, or our aim shall be our God: a practical application of scale- relativity law. So may be that god that the mistic see is not real God. I am sure that Nisargadatta ,while was making wonderful bidies , agrees with this statement.

173. Another Name - August 8, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

Woooh, 108

If you “perceive Bruce as an advocate for himself, please, please, go through the blog and read and study up. This man is very perceptive, very clear and does not hold his tongue…….

Is that not a truth too ?

Read 113 so clear…… later and how he apologizes to Brother…etc, etc.

IMO if I judge another and I go deep inside, I am judging myself…something of it is in me too.
Grief, acknowledgement and awareness are the next step and a small miracle can happen. Over and over again.

H”ono ponoo to all of you

P.S. I stop reading Daily Cardiac.
IMO it is not Fat boy, I do not get those vibes.

174. elena - August 8, 2008

147 Daily Cardiac
“If someone wants to disagree with my viewpoint that’s one thing. If they tell me I am not entitled to my reality just because theirs is or was different then they loose a good deal of credibility in my eyes. If someone wants to think of me as a laggard, someone who has not yet arrived at the point they were when they left, as Innernaut suggested, it’s fine with me if they think that. All I can tell them is I’m a member because the FoF works for me. We all came looking for something. Some do find what they came for and value that. Some are willing to make the payment to buy that. I’m not here to judge anyone; I’m just trying to record a glimpse of my particular journey as a member of FoF, who in all likelihood will remain a member. ”

Hi DC.

Again your position is ever so valid and welcome here because it depicts faithfully the stand of so many in the Fellowship. You have thousands of supporters who’ll do nothing to change the Fellowship’s individual’s likes even if they have nothing to do with rights.

Like so many other tragedies in human history, it is not that you’re right or legitimate, it is that we, human beings of today, are not yet ready to connect our consciousness with our actions in this particular area.

You have hundreds of people who agree that the Fellowship is a rip off harming people but from there to taking legal action to stop it is a lifetime or three, so you may continue happily harvesting the little benefits the brothel generously dispenses on your greedy hands. Me, me, me and fuck the rest, right?

You stand by the position that claims you have a right to believe in your experience and not anybody else’s but that is the most false premise I’ve ever heard anyone express. If your perception of reality is blind to the facts, you’re just a lunatic who needs taking care of in a clinic because you do not have a right to
support an institution that hurts other people and rips them off. You have the choice but not the RIGHT. You see, RIGHT is RIGHT and no one has the right to damage other people. In life we respond for our rights, in death we respond for our choices. Dur lex is lex. No one can avoid the laws.

So in your imaginary world using a whole community for Robert’s personal agenda and presenting a Conscious School for a brothel may have become RIGHT but it is not, it is just your imagination, one of the six obstacles in the System which took us so long to understand. Thousands of us living in imagination. It’s so ironic that the Fellowship would teach us the System on our own flesh and blood: not how to become conscious but how to be even more unconscious than when we joined by helping as fall drastically into inner considering, lying and imagination. It is so perfect, it blows one’s mind.

You all can continue to think you are very happy in the brothel-club but the laws will sooner than later get to you and wipe that ridiculous smile of selfish dignity off your faces and show you the place for criminals. You are fucked to the bottom of your soles and you’ll burn in hell with silk and gold.

I’ve been speaking with members who make my stories sound like fairy tales in comparison. The Fellowship is fucked, was fucked and will be fucked just as Robert likes it. Only the final fuck may not be to your advantage.

175. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

Before things become argumentative again, shall we use a few (FOF qualified) Conscious Beings? Buddha said that the search for ‘enlightenment’ was basically a human one (the FOF path attempts to make an aspirant feel ex-human or super-human) and Christ actually promised “LIFE in all its fullness”. Both of them are stated as being men #8 by REB. The FOF is not a seive by which people can be taken from ‘certain death to immortality’ but, and this is my opinion, which I hope you, DC, and ex-member bloggers will try on which to comment, an elitist, heirarchical, pretentious cult. Nigel

176. somebody - August 8, 2008

Daily Cardiac,

From the “Call of the Loon”:
“An African mask in the form of a heart depicts the steward completing his sequence. It is the best image in all schools for showing that the steward has died. Here the nine of hearts is supporting the four wordless breaths, represented by the nose with four concave divisions. If you put the four sides of the nose together it forms an obelisk. It is help from an unexpected source.”
How did African knew about the analogy of the steward-master controlling the “house” – the man? Why steward died? Does he die every time you complete the sequence? Every 10 breaths? How do you experience the death of the steward?
How is the nine of hearts supports the four wordless breaths? Why is it represented by the nose? How do you experience the nine of hearts supporting four wordless breaths? Do you believe that Africans are hiding the obelisk in the nose of the mask? What for? Does it make sense to you? Don’t you think that presence is more simple than all this nonsense?

177. elena - August 8, 2008

Jack and others,

I think it would be wise to send a copy of the petition letters to every consulate, embassy in the United States where their is a Fellowship centre. I would be willing to work on this if the copies are provided or let you do it if you wish to.

Hopefully most of you who sent in a petition letter will find this an agreeable move. It is obvious that the Fellowship has never paid any taxes in any country where it has functioned for decades and that alone will be enough to get them into trouble. Since a huge of my concern is for people with low income who fall prey of the Fellowship’s glory, directing our attention to the centers would address this issue. People with low income still have enough essence to believe with extreme devotion and give up money that they can never replace, so the harm is substantial. But that is just one area of harm from the Fellowship. Uglier and more frightning are all those who have now become its enablers even after acknowledging there is harm. These are the truly dangerous consequences of a Cult.

178. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

177 Elena
I go along with your thoughts and possible plans for ‘making the international FOF culpable’. I did send a copy of my part of the petition to both Susan Zannos and yourself but may have used a wrong PO Box address for yours. Can you let me know by email – aprhys@nigelprice.net. Nigel.

179. Daily Cardiac - August 8, 2008

Nigel – 171:

P.S. the whole point is that you do not have to be ’saved’!

Then we are all Enlightened, even the sociopaths! You made my day.

180. veronicapoe - August 8, 2008

For those interested, the following is now online:

Miscellaneous Via del Sol journals, 1972-1973:

http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_404

181. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

147 Daily Cardiac

straw man…
“If someone wants to disagree with my viewpoint that’s one thing. If they tell me I am not entitled to my reality just because theirs is or was different then they loose a good deal of credibility in my eyes.”

Please show me where that happens here.

horse shit…
“but it’s not to avoid the difficult questions. It’s more a matter of logistics. ”

“Ad Hominem is when someone is closed off to any voice coming from a particular organization or source.”

wrong again:An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: “argument to the man”, “argument against the man”) consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

This is exactly what you do to avoid salient discussion, it’s not a “logistical problem”

182. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

179 Daily Cardiac
Again, all-or-nothing (formatory) thinking. And, to answer your question, we are all at different stages towards enlightenment and, even within a fully enlightened being, there are more and less enlightened phases in their lives and even within their ‘activities’. Touche, mon frere…..Nigel.

183. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

Most definitely FatBoy

184. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

181 Brucelevy
Blimey O’Reilley! Talk about sensible thought! Nice one, Bruce!…..Nigel.

185. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

DC

Nigel – 171:

P.S. the whole point is that you do not have to be ’saved’!

Then we are all Enlightened, even the sociopaths! You made my day.

Another straw man. You need to either grow up or use your head FatBoy.

186. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 8, 2008

Ellen says: ‘In Advaita Vedanta, as a direct path of non-duality, the focus begins in a location already off the Fourth Way charts: World 3, the Absolute and beyond. Reading Nisargadatta is a real mind-melt. So, for such extremely subtle vibrations, the concept of gross efforts is incongruent. It certainly doesn’t mean that there are no efforts, but the subtlety of the vibrations requires great insight and intuition – and that is the effort’

I recently got introduced to a new form of craniosacral that requires using ‘insight and intuition’ in order to ‘acknowledge’ subtle pulses or ‘vibrations’. The success rate of this new medicine is profound. The effort required is just reminding the body that they are there by a slight touch of this pulse, with almost no resistance or push.

And I think your observation of the FOF mindset is brilliant.

‘ It’s a bit like a townsman, waving goodbye to Christopher Colombus and his crew. Then retiring to the pub with his buddies, to knock back a few shots of juice, sure of his own understanding, and maybe a little sad to see his friends sailing off to a sure demise, yet comforted in what he knows to be.’

Thanks for being here!

187. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

straw man…
“If someone wants to disagree with my viewpoint that’s one thing. If they tell me I am not entitled to my reality just because theirs is or was different then they loose a good deal of credibility in my eyes.”

“Please show me where that happens here.”

Ok, maybe it happens in post 174. elena

Elena, you might want to choose your words more carefully.

188. Daily Cardiac - August 8, 2008

Ellen – 151:

I hope I can burden you with a few more questions from the Nisargadatta quote.

What do you think he is talking about when he speaks of a “seperate existence” ? If you know the answer to that, what is the origin or cause of this seperate existence?

If the Yogi’s represent “light” for exposing this seperate existence is it fair to call this existence “darkness” ?

Anything that keeps you from seeing what is ” a vast and beautiful picture” seems pretty ominous to me.

If I told you that after decades in the FoF the world is much more vast and beautiful to me could you accept that or would you need to place conditions on the statment?

Thank you.

189. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

Now we are on the subject of physiological responses, I thought you might be wondering why I am blogging so much ‘this evening’. It is just that my ‘black suits’ are exhausted but, being an 8 of Hearts, I can go for heartfelt intellect or intellectual heartiness, when I am physically weary. If anyone feels I am a blog-hog, just pull me up on it (either side of the FOF fence!)…..Nigel.

190. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

188 Daily Cardiac
Of course the world to the FOF is vast (read international) and beautiful (read ‘Look at our lovely Apollo’ etc.). REB and his supporters purposely went for that ‘road’. But Meher Baba (another man #8) cautioned against ‘fascination’. Sometimes the world is small and ugly and we (ALL) have to deal with that. So please try to refrain from disappering up your own rectal orifice…..Nigel.

191. Daily Cardiac - August 8, 2008

Bruce – 187:

“straw man…

“If someone wants to disagree with my viewpoint that’s one thing. If they tell me I am not entitled to my reality just because theirs is or was different then they loose a good deal of credibility in my eyes.”

Please show me where that happens here.”

To quote Elizabeth I:

There are so many conspirators I shall have to overlook them.

192. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

191. Daily Cardiac

Total cop out.

I know you’re FatBoy because it’s always like conversing with a child. So I can’t dislike you, but I’d love to send you to a corner for a time out.

193. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

191. Daily Cardiac

Your quote from Elizabeth doesn’t exist anywhere, so I’ll assume you got it from RB or one of his flying monkeys. Listen FatBoy, you’ve been “in” long enough to know that RB’s quotes are often either complete bastardizations or entirely made up. Check your citations before spouting please.

194. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

And stop being so fucking gullible. Where’s your discrimination?

195. ton - August 8, 2008

192 194 bruce

re: Daily Cardiac

“Total cop out…..it’s always like conversing with a child. So I can’t dislike you, but I’d love to send you to a corner for a time out.
And stop being so fucking gullible. Where’s your discrimination?”

dupes like this are the life-blood of the followship, if this person could discriminate they wouldn’t be in the followship… sad but true, those in the cult exist in a state of arrested development and apparently some people never grow up.

196. somebody - August 8, 2008

Dear Cardiac, I hope I as well can burden you with a few more questions from the call of the loon:

“Right now we have about two hundred people in the room all with the third eye working. However, we also have two hundred intestinal lower selves listening, looking and waiting for the chance to destroy this state. *A painting by Niccolo Alunno depicts the nine of hearts and the lower self arguing for control of the sequence – the child. “Unto us a child is born” – a sequence. Mary – the nine of hearts – is looking up, and there she receives the help she needs – the four cherubs, with Mary now transcended within the oval, like card twenty-one. She holds a staff with four fingers of her right hand, and the thumb separate. The four cherubs represent the four wordless breaths, while a fifth angel, barely visible, represents the beginning of a new sequence. It is perhaps the best image in all schools for showing the struggle that occurs between the nine of hearts and the lower self for completing a sequence and supporting presence without words. The devilish figure on the right is actually nine of clubs – the black queen on the chessboard.”

Why is that the third eye of 200 people working well in the room and not working outside of the room? Do you believe that inside of you there is an entity which is waiting for the chance to control the sequence? Do you believe (or verified) that “child” means sequence? Do you believe (verified) that Niccolo Alunno depicts the nine of hearts and the lower self? Do you have difficulty completing the sequence which requires a struggle with the lower self?

197. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 8, 2008

#196 somebody:

Certainly keeps one distracted from having any intuitive thoughts. Keep it up.

198. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 8, 2008

Here’s one for you: “Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.” Sir Walter Scott

199. ton - August 8, 2008

196 somebody,
thanks for posting more nonsense from the horse’s arse… reminds me of how fortunate i am to have escaped the mind-numbing madness…. the mumbo-jumbo is just another example of a tedious, meaningless, exercise in absurdity relying on cognitive dissonance and induced compliance for purposes of brainwashing…. it’s incredible that people believe this dreck and more unbelievable that they continue to pay for… and not just with time and money, that’s the least of it.

hey cardiac, tell me if the following sounds familiar?

“Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. During groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking. A variety of motives for this may exist such as a desire to avoid being seen as foolish, or a desire to avoid embarrassing or angering other members of the group. Groupthink may cause groups to make hasty, irrational decisions, where individual doubts are set aside, for fear of upsetting the group’s balance. The term is frequently used pejoratively, with hindsight.

Causes of groupthink

Highly cohesive groups are much more likely to engage in groupthink. The closer they are, the less likely they are to raise questions to break the cohesion. Although Janis sees group cohesion as the most important antecedent to groupthink, he states that it will not invariably lead to groupthink: ‘It is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition’ (Janis, Victims of Groupthink, 1972). According to Janis, group cohesion will only lead to groupthink if one of the following two antecedent conditions is present:

Structural faults in the organization: insulation of the group, lack of tradition of impartial leadership, lack of norms requiring methodological procedures, homogeneity of members’ social background and ideology.

Provocative situational context: high stress from external threats, recent failures, excessive difficulties on the decision-making task, moral dilemmas.

Social psychologist Clark McCauley’s three conditions under which groupthink occurs:
Directive leadership.
Homogeneity of members’ social background and ideology.
Isolation of the group from outside sources of information and analysis.”

you’ll find more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

200. nigel harris price - August 8, 2008

Daily Cardiac
Did you not think about what intelligent posts you would encounter when you started ‘issuing excretia upon the void’? Have not some of your cronies become embarrassed about it?…..Nigel.

201. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

194 brucelevy
196 somebody

When a person believes–or even accepts as a “theory”–the sort of nonsense illustrated in #196 and so many other similar posts, there are a limited number of possibilities. The person may be a young child. It’s perfectly normal that, before a certain age, a child believes in a literal Santa Claus, or that the moon is made of green cheese. It’s charming, in fact. He may have brain damage or be otherwise mentally impaired, such that he is not capable of consistently thinking rationally. He may be mentally ill, with similar effect.

Or he may have adopted his mental attitude, whether one of actual belief or of a refusal to acknowledge patent absurdity when it stares him in the face, as a result of religious conviction.

Ever read one of those Hare Krishna versions of the Bhagavad Gita that used to be handed out at airports years ago (well, handed out followed by a demand for a donation)? The ones with the brightly-colored illustrations of Lord Krishna playing his flute for the gopis? Some of those illustrations beautifully portrayed things that were so fantastic that I felt compelled to ask the Hare Krishna devotee “c’mon, tell me, for real–do you believe this is literally true?” And you know what he would always say.

It’s the same thing that millions of devoted Christians will say if asked whether they really believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead, or turned water into wine, etc. Because if you follow the religion, by definition you believe the dogma–otherwise that’s not your religion.

Religions of this sort are not looking for people who approach such assertions rationally or analytically. There’s no no place for that, it’s in fact counterproductive. A priest of such a religion has no reason to be rational; the whole purpose of putting irrational statements out there for consumption is to separate the wheat–devoted followers, who are welcome–from the chaff–people who insist upon rationality, who are not welcome.

There’s a reason for this that predates the conversion of these religions into self-perpetuating money-making machines. These religions were formed around certain methods. Christians believe that with prayer, anything is possible. Hare Krishnas are absolutely confident that chanting will lead to unity with Lord Krishna. Both are true, if practiced with sufficient devotion and persistence. That’s what Gurdjieff quaintly referred to as the “way of the monk,” and as he said, it’s a legitimate way.

The Fellowship has morphed over the years into a full-blown religion. One difference between the Fellowship and any of these other religions is that mainstream Christianity, for example, doesn’t pretend that its dogma is verifiable. In fact, it expects true followers to vehemently insist the dogma is true notwithstanding the impossibility of ever proving any of it. It’s a test of a follower, and a point of pride. As the Christian Church interprets Jesus’ teachings, having faith only in what makes sense is unimpressive–it isn’t faith at all. A real Christian believes in the impossible.

The Fellowship, to attract people who are religious followers at heart but can’t quite shake their Western belief in rationality (or the belief that true uncritical faith is somehow shameful), tells these people that they must not believe the dogma uncritically, they must verify everything. This effectively puts to sleep that critical faculty, since many people don’t really want to verify, but don’t want to admit to themselves that they lack the energy, courage, or mental independence to actually do it. The follower may now tell himself he is not in a religion, does not have faith, but verifies everything, as he bleats along with the herd.

Another difference is that the true “way of the monk” cultivates faith and worship of a diety for a practical purpose. The methods of these religions is to develop one-pointed concentration, whether through repetition of the Hare Krishna mantra or the Jesus prayer (in the Eastern Orthodox Church) or the image of the crucified Jesus, because when developed sufficiently, one-pointed concentration does produce an altered state of consciousness. The theory is that the end justifies the means–if the end is an experience of blissful oneness, there’s no harm telling fairy tales that help the devotee develop the necessary focus on the mantra or image.

The Fellowship tries to mix devotion to Robert Burton and similarly absurd dogma with a method–being present–that does not lead to, and is not designed to lead to, the one-pointed concentration that is the goal of devotion-based religions. The practices that “self-remembering” were based on, which have been central to Buddhism for over two thousand years, are designed to allow the practitioner to see things as they are, rather than to create a blissful altered state. So Fellowship dogma is counterproductive in the context of the method. It’s a predictable result of a deeply flawed leader, who has invented his methods and dogma as he went along, to serve his personal ends.

In any event, trying to discuss the Fellowship rationally with a devotee is exactly as productive as trying to debate with a Hare Krishna devotee whether Krishna really has blue skin, or trying to talk a devoted Christian into acknowledging that Jesus did not literally walk on water.

202. veramente - August 8, 2008

196 Somebody

“Right now we have about two hundred people in the room all with the third eye working. However, we also have two hundred intestinal lower selves listening, looking and waiting for the chance to destroy this state. “…
=============
Somebody, is the above really from REB!
“intestinal lower selves listening”, never heard of this one before.
Cannot believe I gave away ten years of my life following such IDIOT.
Unfortunately he did not look like one when I first met him, but now I see his way of being “extraordinary” was already a sign of his profound mental illness.

203. rich - August 8, 2008

Many, many thanks Sheikh for starting this blog. Your starting this blog and taking a lot of time and thought in moderating leads me to conclude you acted from conscience. There are no points or medals given to you for this action. In this action however you exceeded my own courage and capabilities to which I am ever grateful. Thank you for creating this platform whereby people / human beings can express themselves, their opinions and likes and dislikes without the fear of incrimination. Moreover ,not entirely of your own volition ,as one fact of computering and computers is that of the inability to lie,computers as yet have no programmes by which they can lie. My hearfelt gratitude to all contributors of messages on this blog in allowing me the means by which I have been able at times to sort my own conflicting emotions / thoughts . I have taken sides with some and railed against some who are on my side. Thus , at least veryfying my own duplicity of which I do not consider myself to be any different from anybody else. This I have observed in myself and in others around me . I consider it a matter of awareness. As human beings none of us are exempt , that is my present consideration. This cult leader seems to have prefabricated an exemption certificate for himself and those that pay him. This for me is outmoded .
If, there is any justice Sheikh, may you fly like a butterfly.

204. somebody - August 8, 2008

202 Veramente
It is indeed from RB!

Lower self according to RB (from the meeting on “Characteristics of the Lower Self”)
– attempts to break the four wordless breaths.
– disguised as a nine of hearts, kind and friendly person,
– I’s unrelated to sequence,
– in love with itself,
– the master-spy, difficult to detect,
– rules the imaginary picture we have of ourselves;
– kills the sequence,
– shows teeth,
– unhappy person within us,
– centered in the base of the spine;
– cold and in-compassionate;
– judges others and oneself;
– finds faults in order to keep us from detecting that the problem is internal;
– keeping an account to displace presence;
– opposes sequence;
– prefers to fill centers rather than the third eye;
– changes shapes – 10,000 shapes;
– devours the sequence;
– is the second state;
– uses the word “I”;
– prompts imagination;
– belongs to the intestinal world
etc, etc.

Baaaad lower self!

205. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

204. somebody

Another words, anything that is not RB’s sequence. Anything that hinders being kept asleep while your pockets, sexuality, marriage and conscience are sucked out of you, leaving only a vague approximation of humanity.
Nighty night members, sleep well.

206. paulshabram - August 8, 2008

205 Bruce

Re; 204 Somebody

You would think that when it gets this weird and non-sensical that the market for this scheisse would dry up completely. The recruitment process can’t possibly include any of this madness. I’m almost surprised that some loon hasn’t gone postal trying to eliminate all the “lower selves” (“disguised as a nine of hearts, kind and friendly person”). Text book paranoia.

OK, the 204 post could easily be the caption list from the first photo in post 70 (including “shows teeth”).

207. My4bits - August 8, 2008

Acting on a recent recommendation from Veronicapoe, I purchased the book, “Authority,” by Richard Sennett. I started reading it this morning, and my day has been filled with eye-opening, ah-ha! moments, with many more to come, I’m sure.

By the way, today’s topic in my “chain of 30 links” de-programming ritual happens to be “deception.” Sennett describes how authority and the fear of deception [and by extrapolation, my own anger at having been deceived… grrrrrrr!] are closely related in a social context.

Here’s an excerpt from the chapter “Authority and Illusion,” to whet your appetite:

“The autonomous figure seems simply self-enclosed: nothing proffered, no deception. But this too is not the case. His influence can be organized bureaucratically into forms of psychological manipulation. As a role-model, he offers an illusory view of what freedom is like. He is not free from others; he is only freed from dealing mutually with others by arousing feelings of shame and inadequacy in them. A controller of others who appears disinterested: perhaps the ultimate deception.”

It occurs to me that a deeper examination of “authority” and “deception” will help me understand and de-legitimize RB, more completely free myself of traces of his destructive influence, and guard against falling into the same trap again.

I know that this examination will require that I knowingly accept responsibility for the role I played in enabling and perpetuating the charade. Of course, it’s a two-way street: a complex dynamic that requires a master (RB) and a follower (me).

So, if the topics of authority (and deception) seem to hold keys to more thoroughly understanding your own situation, whether you be “in” or “out,” Sennett’s “Authority” is a great read!

208. My4bits - August 8, 2008

Addendum to my previous post:

I might even venture to posit that “authority” lies at the very core of my Fellowship experience, and that “spirituality” is but window-dressing.

209. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

At this point, in a better world, RB and his main monkeys would be behind bars, with the rank and file members left to gnash their teeth at their own utter stupidity.

210. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

206

The notion that the lower self “shows teeth” was rumored to have been inspired by Frank Zappa’s “Baby Take Your Teeth Out.”

Baby take your teeth out
Try it one time
Baby take your teeth out
Try it one time
Leave ’em on the kitchen table

Baby take your teeth out
It’ll be fine
Baby take your teeth out
It’ll be fine
There ain’t nothin’ left to smile about

Baby take your teeth out
You look divine
Baby take your teeth out
You look divine
Go ahead and eat the label

Baby take your teeth out
I will recline
Baby take your teeth out
I will recline
There ain’t nothin’ left to talk about

211. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

Wake the fuck up people.

212. somebody - August 8, 2008

Be gentle and don’t be too harsh on Daily Cardiac and other students, they are listening to these things a few times a week. Poor things 😦

“*Here we see the Mona Lisa with four fingers draped over the edge of the chair, outside of time, and four dowels beneath the arm of the chair. Rembrandt used the same shadowy technique. She also shows four fingers on the other hand, with the thumb out. Behind the Mona Lisa is an aqueduct with four aches, representing the four wordless breaths. The sequence is the water of life flowing through the four arches. *Boticelli used this same motif in his painting of the Adoration of the Magi, having heard about Leonardo’s painting from Raphael. Here Boticelli is the steward, with his red hair combusting. His hands are hidden, like Moses not touching God with his hands. Behind him is a bridge with four arches, representing the four wordless breaths. He looks shrewd because the steward has gotten the victory – he has finished the sequence and is supporting the four wordless breaths.”

213. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

Suzi,…Suzi Creamcheese,… what’s got into you.

214. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

212

Here Boticelli is the steward, with his red hair combusting.

215. paulshabram - August 8, 2008

212. Somebody
I don’t know about you, but I see 6 arches in the Boticelli painting.

216. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

Conscience awakens in FOF members:

217. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

215. paulshabram

When all the members are asleep, you can just make shit up, and wait for the nods.

218. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

Ode to RB and the flying monkeys:

219. somebody - August 8, 2008

206. paulshabram

This image actually an illustration to this message:

The Hindu texts say, “The wise man lives happily. Just seeing when seeing, just hearing when hearing, just feeling when feeling, just smelling when smelling, and just tasting when tasting.” Presence is its own imperishable reward. *Here is a photograph of me taken in Oaxaca, Mexico.

But I like more

“Mmmm, there’s nothing like a freshly shorn scrotum. Mini Me, you complete me.”

and

“Checks to see if his false teeth are still glued to his gums.”

220. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

218 brucelevy

While we’re on the subject, an example of courage and truth:

221. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

RB’s latest entreaty to have sex with pretty faced, mindless solar bois:

222. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

Daily Cardiac finally gets it….

223. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

Saved the best for last:

224. paulshabram - August 8, 2008

On the right you will see my Avatar selected for me by the gods. Six small diamonds are placed on the edges of a square, the Sequence. The six diamonds are arranged to suggest a circle representing the end of one Sequence and the beginning of another. Within the circle four triangular shapes are formed with three smaller triangles. The apex of the triangles point to the center of the circle, representing the Mystery of the Four Wordless Breaths. The triangles are arranged such that the other apexes signify the North, South, East, and West heralding the death of the Lower Self through the destruction of all the world’s population outside the School. Isn’t it wonderful? It is the work of the gods.

225. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

Re 223

sorry wrong one:

226. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

224 paulshabram

With respect, the proper form is “It is wonderful, is it not?” The lower self uses contractions, dear.

227. paulshabram - August 8, 2008

226. JAVOH

Fuck! I thought that was too easy. Been out for too long.

228. brucelevy - August 8, 2008

226. Just Another Voice Out Here

No, it is not, badness.

229. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

227 paulshabram

Where it is written “Been out for too long,” this signifies “long BE,” the short form of “long bean,” often used in Chinese stir-fry. Short BE signifies “taking long bean in the shorts.” We are all vegetables here, are we not? As Mr. Zappa wrote, “Call any vegetable. The chances are good the vegetabel will respond to you.”

230. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

228 brucelevy

Quite fooling around, Bruce. There are Fellowship members out there who need to be saved.

231. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 8, 2008

230
Whoops–there goes the lower self again! I meant “quit,” but the eight of clubs slipped up my shorts and made me say “quite.”

232. paulshabram - August 8, 2008

In the JAVOH Avatar we see a child wearing many hats. The hats represent the 10,000 disguises of Lower Self. Do not be fooled by gentle face of the child, his surprise is the shock of the Lower Self to being Present.

233. somebody - August 9, 2008

234. brucelevy - August 9, 2008

233. somebody

The raised right hand with fingers extended represents the five useless breaths one takes after being coerced into repulsive sex. The half hidden lowered left hand indicates….well, take a guess.

235. brucelevy - August 9, 2008

adenda…

the raised right hand is to remind you to tap his head three times before he drinks from your cup.

236. somebody - August 9, 2008

237. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 9, 2008

236 somebody

Looks like a shishkaBob.

238. brucelevy - August 9, 2008

Must be a gibbous moon.

239. paulshabram - August 9, 2008

1. Sjaman
Not so, as far as I can tell.

240. brucelevy - August 9, 2008

Sjaman

Finnish for I be jammin.

241. brucelevy - August 9, 2008

242. Renald - August 9, 2008

Pavel 444 Great timing! 08/08/08 or 888 here in Mexico.

243. Renald - August 9, 2008

Ok a little levity to go along. This is a repost from GF where it was so ever appreciated by the multitudes.

It was early spring and Slope 09 was wet as usual. There was a conversation going on internally about being present in the moment. Somehow deciding on right action was part of this idea. The many “I’s” (thoughts) apparently could take one away from the present and cause one to get lost in the no-man’s-land of imagination. I had volonteered on this particular weekend day to do some tying and I was alone, perfect situation for this type of meditation.

The conversation had taken on the form of questions and answers. For example I asked myself questions on this subject of being present and someone inside fed me the answer. This brought up another question and so on it went. Suddenly the bigger of the church bells in the meadow just below me started to ring. “Boing! Boing! Boing!………..non-stop” There was nobody there. It seemed to me like an answer from the gods or at least from an angel, or maybe a challenge or a test.

” Hmm! I am here to tie vines. Yes, but the signal from the bells is either for funerals or a call for firefighters. People might leave their octaves (jobs) on a wild goose chase. What should I do? So what is right action?” And so it went on and on. In the end I decided that right action, since I was the closest to the bells was to go down and see if I could stop them from ringing unnecessarily.

While climbing down through the wires and weeds, a stick managed to find its way into my tall boots. It hurt. Could I find a dry spot to sit down on to remove the boot with the stick in it? “That is not being present to your aim!” “Oh alright!” Thus I finally reached the electrically controlled bells with the attached computer system. I knew nothing about the control system. I walked around and found the metal box. There was no “on and off” switch visible. As I raised my hand up towards the box, the ringing stopped. “Wow!” I stood there mesmerized for a moment and the nagging started up once more. ” Is this being present or being in imagination?” “Right, being present to right action in this moment is to get this stick out of my boot”. What a relief to sit down on the cement casing and untie those laces! “And now what?” “Get your Self up there and tie!” “But this is the miraculous!” “And?”

Back up on the slope the babbling continued. I was still in awe. “I should write this all down, otherwise I will likely forget some of the details” “But lunch is still 30 minutes away”. Eventually the conclusion reached was that since this was not regular work it would be right action to hurry home and make my notes on this event. I would return a half hour earlyafter lunch.

The bell had rung for over ten minutes. I didn’t even have a picture in my mind as to what I was going to attempt to do with my hand when it would get to the metal box, yet a fraction of a second before I would find out, the story ended. It left me with an eerie feeling. Superstition?

244. Innernaut - August 9, 2008

I just read some of the Via del Sol journals that veronicapoe posted. They are from 1972 or so. You think Robert Burton is spouting nonsense now? I couldn’t believe the crap in those journals, or that I ever fell for them. This particularly struck me:

“People do not have a soul. They have to create one.”

How did we ever start believing in this? I can’t say with any certainty that people have souls, but I am equally uncertain that we don’t, or that they could be created by any means. This statement just has no relationship to reality. Yet it is one of the fundamental premises of the Fellowship of Friends, and always has been. Why would anyone believe this? Fear? It certainly looks like an excellent way to motivate people to do your bidding — scare people by telling them they don’t have a soul, but that, by happy chance, you can provide them with one, if they only pay enough, make enough of the right kinds of efforts…oh my god, what a con.

I was struck by the lunacy of many of the statements — just sheer insanity. I was also struck by the incredibly trite observations, offered in serious, heavy, pretentious tones, as though Robert had the secrets of the universe for sale. It’s all in the presentation — that’s where the big money’s at.

245. Innernaut - August 9, 2008

243 Renald

When I was about 4 years old, I was on a downtown street with my parents. I saw a shiny fire hose connector on a building, and the moment I touched it, the church bells started ringing. I thought I had set them off, and was very scared. I finally burst into tears because the burden of guilt was too strong. When my mother asked why I was crying, I told her I had set off the church bells. She just laughed…

246. veronicapoe - August 9, 2008

Reposting again for those interested: the following is now online:

Miscellaneous Via del Sol journals, 1972-1973:

http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_404

247. Another Name - August 9, 2008

Years ago I was driving with a under ten year old in the car. He suddenly said to me: ” I do not believe in this growing your soul….
You have a soul or you do not have a soul…..

It helped me to review my point of view an it took a few years of more questioning……Dorian and Miha’s reinstatement after the voucher deal for sex was the beginning of my disbelieve and the fact that something was wrong became more clear.
The next big shock was Robert letting 6 people leave the fellowship so easy on one of his days that he had predicted the fall of California to a view “insiders”……

Am I grateful for the exposure of so much (yes painful information) so I have could make a more informed choice about the fellowship.

I stil lponder why I gave away so much authority and why I believed in giving up my self will. ….Time to move on and be grateful for what I have now …and thank full to all of you and Pavel.
Thanks to live and of being able to hear my inner silence….my breathing ……

Enjoy your day

248. Rear View Mirror - August 9, 2008

People are really on a roll here… Some great laughs.

I just read some of the Via del Sol newsletter thingamabob presented to us by Veronicapoe… I copied down a few of the more blatantly weird “angles” from RB, and maybe I’ll post them tomorrow, but…

The Via del Sol Journals, and other excerpts from RB’s “teachings,” really create a sense of Intellectual Fog. In addition to some of it being just flat-out strange, I don’t get a sense of clarity in them, or find anything coherent and practical. I’m not sure I can describe it any better than that. Maybe some of you can.

(“Yes, it’s a bunch of complete bullshit,” is one answer I anticipate.)

Sheik, a very big thanks.

249. Ames Gilbert - August 9, 2008

German Adam Gotz, 30, claimed he was a “spiritual psychiatrist” and said the Pyramids in Giza, Egypt, provided spiritual energy that enabled believers to “transcend humanity”. That energy would allow people to be “free from death”, he told his girlfriend Sarah, traveling with him from Germany. Later, after climbing to the top of the 187-meter (617 feet) Cairo Tower, Gotz told Sarah he would prove what he was telling her was true: he jumped off. He was killed on impact. (Reuters)

Warning: Belief in strange ideas does not guarantee that strange ideas will believe in you.

250. My4bits - August 9, 2008

I thought I was getting help to escape my prison of sleep, from one who has successfully escaped. Instead, I just got a gay interior decorator.

251. paulshabram - August 9, 2008

246 Veronicapoe
Via del Sol
Check out RB’s advice as to how to verify he was conscious.
He basically relies on verification of C-Influence to “prove” he is a “conscious being”.

It’s really humbling to read this stuff now.

I re-read some of Ouspensky’s Psychology of Man’s Possible Evolution the other day and ran across an interesting point:

“You will be very astonished when you realise how little you
actually remember. And it happens in this way because you
remember only the moments when you were conscious.
So, in reference to the third state of consciousness, we can say
that man has occasional moments of self-consciousness leaving
vivid memories of circumstances accompanying them but he has
no command over them. They come and go by themselves, being
controlled by external circumstances, and occasional associations
or memories of emotions.
The question arises: Is it possible to acquire command over
these fleeting moments of consciousness, to evoke them more
often, and to keep them longer, or even make them permanent? In other words, is it possible to become conscious?”

Here, although it was not the main point Ouspensky was making, he implies that a “conscious being” would be in a continuous state of strong memory formation. Anyone who has spent time with RB knows this is not going on. And I highly doubt it was going on in either Gurdjieff or Ouspensky. Rodney Collin, I think, was nearly as goofy as Robert.

252. paulshabram - August 9, 2008

248 RVM
Reading the few VDS’s posted brings back memories for me, but what strikes me is that my in memory C-influence was not the big push. However, it clearly was RB’s main push. As I pointed out above he was completely relying on selling C-Influence in order to create the illusion of being “conscious”. I also remember the context of 1972 which was a pinnacle of social confusion. The time was ripe and the pigeons were fat.
If there was an internet then I don’t think this would have been so easy for him.

Note the quotes from Daniel D__is. He was to be the next #5 after Donald. He suddenly fell silent and sullen, then left.

253. paulshabram - August 9, 2008

Ouspensky’s “we can say that man has occasional moments of self-consciousness leaving vivid memories of circumstances accompanying them” seems so much like a terrible mistaking of normal biochemical function. Someone in a continuous state like this would probably be terrified and catatonic.

254. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

251 paulshabram
While doing some secondary education teaching practice way back in 1992, I remember telling some ‘special needs’ kids that there was something in all of us that will remember everything we have ever done in life. I was escalating into my first ‘sectionable high’ and would refer to myself as ‘the RAM of God’. I was not actually trying to be funny. Now I am teaching the skills which everyone thought I had ‘lost’, due to my bi-polar, for many years, having caused a kind of ‘miserable self’ until about 5 years ago, when all started to take a change for the better, I now see that I was not lying to myself. The ‘cool, clear fountain of memory’ belongs to The master, Real ‘I’ or Self, which is Essence grown up. Gurdjieff actually claimed this…..Nigel.

255. paulshabram - August 9, 2008

Nigel
My view of memories, experiences, and consciousness is very different than Ouspensky’s. Ouspensky and Gurdjieff broke everything up into separate parts (centers) and that was further divided with the “deck of cards” analogy. The appeal of these artificial divisions remain because it reflects the fractal nature of our biochemical structure, but I understand it very differently now. The notion of different “centers” is imposed by the system. It is really the same thing viewed from a different place.

The best analogy is looking at a true hologram. The image is recorded on a 2 dimensional film but from different incident angles. By tilting the film the image changes to a different view of the same scene thus giving the impression of 3 dimensions. You can, to some extent, see what’s behind objects recorded from the view from straight on. The real analogy to memory is that the entire image is imprinted everywhere on the film. If you cut the film up into little pieces you can still see the whole scene, but only by tilting the film. A film fragment only shows the image from a specific point of view. By analogy, all our memories are connected together and accessible, but only from the specific point of view of the specific memory. The more narrow the memory the more difficult the access is to other memories.

I know now that my memories are being slowly altered by new experiences. It’s never static and I have become comfortable with not having a static point of reference. My sense of myself in relation to the world and other people is my point of reference. You, of all people know what happens when that point of refernce disconnects. Thankfully, that has yet to happen to me, but I keep testing reality to make sure.

Many memories remain accurate when compared to objective data such as video, notes, and other peoples accounts. Some memories are changed by an ever expanding set of experiences and understanding. Going back to source data, like the VDS journals shows me the contrast between what was in my memory then, and what’s in it now. The data changes the experience yet again by tilting the point of view and those memories are again forever changed. It also changes by the layering more experiences. If I have a hotdog in NY, the memory of hotdog is forever altered by having a hotdog in Chicago.

Our perception of the now, IMO, is only experienced in relation to the “hologram”. For this reason Self Remembering, creates an Observer that can only be subjective. SR and creating the Observer, while it can be very useful, is nothing more than a mind trick.

256. Ellen - August 9, 2008

169, Dear Daily Cardiac,
I quoted Nisargadatta:
“All the Yogas, whatever their source and character, have only one aim: to save you from the calamity of a separate existence, of being a meaningless dot in a vast and beautiful picture”.

You say:
“How do the Yogi’s do this, i.e. save you? If you are not saved it implies something is out of order. What steps change things for you, what do you have to do differently to be “saved” ? How are you different after you are saved, how long does it take to be saved? Why do you need someone to tell you you are not saved?”

I am not sure how to respond to your questions. Is it because you don’t understand the passage from N.? Or is it that you want to know how I understand it?

You know it is always difficult when you take any passage out of context – as I did. N. was a bit of a poet in his use of language, so it is when you ask what he means by a word like “saved”. Actually, his original word was different, as it was spoken in his native language of Marathi, but the English language translation of “I Am That” is excellent, so I am not worried that a loss of meaning has occurred. The best I can do is tell you, like a fourth grader, giving a book report, “and if you want to know the rest, read the book.” There are numerous sources on line, but the best if the full PDF, located here.
http://www.maharajnisargadatta.com/I_Am_That.pdf

Just for good measure, here is the quotation within the context of the full passage:
“You must deal with the ‘I’-sense if you want to be free of it. Watch it in operation and at peace, how it starts and when it ceases, what it wants and how it gets it, till you see clearly and understand fully. After all, all the Yogas, whatever their source and character, have only one aim: to save you from the calamity of separate existence, of being a meaningless dot in a vast and beautiful picture.
You suffer because you have alienated yourself from reality and now you seek an escape from this alienation. You cannot escape from your own obsessions. You can only cease nursing them.
It is because the ‘I am’ is false that it wants to continue. Reality need not continue — knowing itself indestructible, it is indifferent to the destruction of forms and expressions. To strengthen, and stabilise the ‘I am’ we do all sorts of things — all in vain, for the ‘I am’ is being rebuilt from moment to moment. It is unceasing work and the only radical solution is to dissolve the separative sense of ‘I am such-and-such person’ once and for good. Being remains, but not self-being.”

257. Ellen - August 9, 2008

#188, Daily Cardiac,

“What do you think he is talking about when he speaks of a “seperate existence” ? If you know the answer to that, what is the origin or cause of this seperate existence?”

The passage I included above may answer that question. And then again, it may generate more…

“If the Yogi’s represent “light” for exposing this separate existence is it fair to call this existence “darkness” ?”

He said Yogas, not Yogis. (In India, the word Yoga refers to a teaching.) But to answer your question, don’t get formatory on me, I don’t know that N. would speak of light in that way. Light is within you, as is darkness. And all that you experience or see outside of you is you also.

“Anything that keeps you from seeing what is ” a vast and beautiful picture” seems pretty ominous to me.”

Wel, ominous, is a subjective response, laced with fear and loathing. But when you truly understand that the web of desires and fears deeply woved into the roots of your own sense of “me” is the problem, well, its different. Who is to blame? Just go deeply within and release all these ridiculous cramps. You alone can do that for yourself.

“If I told you that after decades in the FoF the world is much more vast and beautiful to me could you accept that or would you need to place conditions on the statment? ”

No conditions, as I said to you before, go for it. Go all the way.

258. Ellen - August 9, 2008

#186, WULSWU
Thanks.
I found your mention of CranioSacral technique interesting. I have experienced CS treatments for my MS condition for about 10 years now. Releasing myself with attention/awareness into a session is like merging with the swells of the ocean. Yes, very subtle. But I think you were referring to something still more intuitive? Still, not sure it is the same as the world three level that Advaita refers to, but also not sure that it is not. To my understanding that world three level is Being-Consciousness-Bliss. The essential, original triad.

259. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

255 paulshabram
256 Ellen
Those were both brilliant passages and nourished my ‘views on the matter’. I can only say for myself that I am ‘free from something’ that was hindering me all those years back (fear, maybe, and certainly fear of failure). Vision, supported by an ‘all-encompassing’ emotionality and a mighty intellect, seem to be ‘stuck’ to me. The only analogy I can come up with is the idea of The Prize in the film ‘Highlander’ – “You are at one with all living things”. (No, I can’t thought-read!). Maybe this answers both your posts?

I also wanted to do a little bit of this post on REB. I looked up the word ‘sociopath’ in the Little Oxford Dictionary and, although it did not contain that actual word, it had ‘social – to do with society, or people’ and ‘pathology – the study of disease or illness’. Now I see this definitely refers to REB. He can hardly be called a ‘Teacher’, visionary or even spiritual leader, since he parasitically preys on others and reduces the ‘noble virtues’ that others might possess or be able to produce for themselves to a ‘clinging dependence’ on him alone (this even applies to GH, who would not survive back in ‘life’, were he to be ‘released’). Any views on the matter? …..Nigel.

260. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

258 Ellen
I am a Celtic Warrior Shaman Universalist at peace with others and the world…..Nigel.

261. Pavel - August 9, 2008

Rich: In this action however you exceeded my own courage and capabilities to which I am ever grateful.

It was a coincidence to begin with and work (of a kind) to follow. You have the courage and capabilities to do whatever you choose to do!

Ellen: Thank you, I have enjoyed your voice in here very much.

262. ton - August 9, 2008

veronicapoe 246 or thereabouts
thanks for the VD journals (pun intended, i feel ill — dis-eased when i read too much of this stuff). from a brief perusal (and of course hindsight)… it’s more evidence of a diseased or at least a delusional mind. to quote a bit from under the heading of “Morality” as an illustration: “It is a fact that, unfortunately, anything goes with higher forces in regards to waking up school students. Higher forces understand daily that HUMANS DO NOT EXIST. We often forget, or do not wish to admit it.” pg. 5

the idea that “humans do not exist” is a theme that is repeated over and again here…. it’s simply a rationalization for his own “anything goes” attitude toward “students.” the delusion / mindset that “humans do not exist” gives free reign and permission for his own acts of inhumanity.
there’s plenty of insight / fodder here revealing the roots of the malignancy, if anyone has the stomach for it…. i seem to have lost my taste for the kool-aide.

263. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

262 ton
Did REB really say that? It would be like me saying that ‘C-influence allows me to have sex with my female students over the jewellery benches’. Actually, I respect them far too much for anything like that to happen…..Nigel.

264. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

262 ton
The ‘fact’ that humans ‘do not exist’ is on the same lines as ‘man cannot do’. I always found that a difficult concept in ‘The System’. Why is it that REB can produce no works of art or anything even the least inventive himself yet calls anyone else who can ‘sleeping machines’?…..Nigel.

265. ton - August 9, 2008

263 Nigel,

like i “said” you’ll find the quote under the heading of “Morality” (there’s something ironic about that)…. pg. 5 of the VD(S) journal on the link provided by veronicapoe…. there’s that and a whole lot more… check it out if you can “stomach” it.

264 “Why is it that REB can produce no works of art or anything even the least inventive himself yet calls anyone else who can ’sleeping machines’?…”

he’s a parasite who preys in a variety of ways upon others…. ripping-off dead writers and butchering their meaning with “sound-bite” presentations is one of the more obvious but perhaps less egregious examples of parasitic behaviour …. a couple of pages back someone pointed out that there’s something “cannibalistic” about him…. i would say there’s an element of “vampirism” at work but instead of blood, he drinks semen…. the effect is the same, feeding on an essential fluid / life-energy of the victim in order to sustain itself….

ps on the “lighter” side, for fans of zappa:
even though the thread is past, as a long time zappa fan myself i can’t resist putting in my “two-sense” — from the excellent album “uncle meat” (another possible nick-name for “conscious bob?”)…. a nice melody (“dog breath”) accompanied by scenes of simulated man-sex… it’s a joke here but seems somehow “fitting:”

266. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

265 ton
I have tried ‘getting in’ on the Via del Sol site to read posts but somehow I cannot ‘figure it out’. Any hints, anybody?…..Nigel.

267. ton - August 9, 2008

nigel
try clicking on the link provided, when the page opens on the left / middle of the page under “View the book” click on PDF… takes about 5 minutes to load.

268. Ill Never Tell - August 9, 2008

206. paulshabram – August 8, 2008:

‘OK, the 204 post could easily be the caption list from the first photo in post 70 (including “shows teeth”).’

Since this is a school/teaching, I guess I have to tell you how it IS (even though I say, ‘I’ll never tell.’)

First, go to post 70. Use the link to see the collage of images. Then read below:

Image number 1 shows the subject using the middle finger of the left hand to pick pubic hair from the teeth. This gesture could be considered obscene in some circles, given the finger (or, more accurately: giv’n the finger). This is a customary gesture that the subject frequently assumes after the consumption process and indicates the lower self in a state of satisfaction with itself. The sequence is finished, time for four wordless breaths.

Image number 2 shows persons selecting a bauble for a gift-favor having completed a certain number of those consumption process sequences. Donations free accepted. They were/are? called teaching payments.

Image number 3 shows how FoF is dealing with the cash flow crunch and simultaneous fuel cost escalation. Next stage is tandem pogo sticks.

Image number 4 shows a fourth grade classroom where subjects are learning to do simple arithmetic with the check as well as determining who the patsy is going to be for paying said check. Most likely the patsy(ies) will be the person(s) who is(are) absent from the table. They will learn they are stuck with the bill after returning to the table and finding everyone else has departed along with the dinner and the money. Got plastic? Don’t leave home without it.

Image number 5 shows a dinner plate with the ”set aside’ first bite morsel (and ‘set aside’ every second bite there after)’ as uneaten portions of the meal. This is an exercise implemented to bring attention to, and observation of, the lower self and the instinctive function – as a religious experience. The morsels are arranged in a symbolic cryptic fashion as a message to the busboy or kitchen personnel (who need to wake up): 1) Help! I am being held captive, and as a sex slave, by a secret society of psychopaths, 2) There are starving hundreds in Oregon House, CA, because people cannot eat half the food on their plates – please, put this in a doggy bag and ship overnight express as a ‘care’ package to my wife and children, 3) These deer droppings don’t taste anything like what I thought they would – gamey and musty, goes good with an aged robust Merlot or Zinfandel, and/or, 4) Conscience! You forgot to serve me my real conscience. What kind of joint is this!? Don’t leave home with out it.

– – – – – –

236. somebody – August 9, 2008:

Great picture! Shows you-know-who, as man number four, bringing up the rear.

269. Associated Press - August 9, 2008

On Rape: sexual, spiritual, and otherwise:

‘the young woman finally did tell her story. As a result, many others began to speak out, eventually contributing to an extensive exposé of SYDA (Siddha Yoga (also known as SYDA)) in The New Yorker magazine (Harris, 1994). . . the article revealed a Pandora’s box of well-documented abuses by the leaders of SYDA that had been going on for more than 20 years.’

See: ‘Everything you always wanted to know about male rape, but were afraid to ask.’ on Greater Fellowship website.

Anyone’s speaking out can be a watershed event that opens the flood gates of truth.

270. veramente - August 9, 2008

204 Somebody
Thank you for the list of manifestations of the ” lower self” .
It’s really an example of puritanism and mind body split.
Is the devil ever mentioned in his lists? Are bathrooms now for the lower self since they belong to the “intestinal world” and how is that congruent with RB’s sexuality?
He seems to rather indulge himself with “lower self” territories…
I feel very sorry for his most close victims of sexual abuse and feel angry as well that RB keeps just on cruising.

271. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 9, 2008

#258 Ellen: I made the connection to what you said on an emotional level. If you want to know more about this new craniosacral therapy Google Stanley Rosenberg Institut (Denmark) or Stephen Porges, University of Illinois. I am going to study it here. It is having great successes in correcting illnesses such as autism with acknowleding and recognizing very subtle pulses found in the vagal nerve, what Porges calls the polyvagal technique and in turn healing what Stanley Rosenberg calls the social engagement system.

272. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 9, 2008

#258: And it would require intuition and presence from the practitioner in order to recognize these subtle pulses. That’s where I made the connection.

273. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

Funny how, whilst, with the help of veronicapoe and ton, I am opening the pdf file for the Via del Sol Journals link, I am listening to ‘Panis Angelicus’, a classically based song (panis angelicus – meaning angelic bread). Guess what I have received from this blog-site? (FOF Discussion) Heavenly knowledge (bread)!…..Nigel.

274. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

“When I am down and oh! my soul so weary;
When troubles come and my heart burdened be;
Then I am still and wait here in the silence,
Until you come and sit a while with me.

Your raise me up…..to more than I can be”.

(Song now playing on CD player)

275. Rear View Mirror - August 9, 2008

I copied a few excerpts from Robert Burton in the Via Del Sol Journals from Veronicapoe’s link… Some of what he said was obviously intended to evoke fear and to promote the idea that there is nothing of value outside the cult.. The obvious conclusion is, “Well, then, I had better join. And when I join, I had better stay.”

Contrary to what I wrote above — that I don’t “find anything coherent and practical” in his words — I do like some of what he had to say, but in the context of everything written on these 43 pages of the blog, you see the hypocrisy and the deception in his words.
———-

Humans can be objectively viewed as earthworms, aerating the soil.

Man is intended to be food for another salient, natural enemy — the moon, according to the system.

Generally people in Life are a tragedy and do not know it. They are fated to be eaten, just as we all eat various beings each day.

Humanity is a less significant level than it thinks it is. It is forced to take itself seriously since it has the common plight of existing together.

When a person has a chief feature of greed, the more he receives the more he may want.

It is odd how humanity signifies nothing, isn’t it?

As the years pass we will have less a student-teacher relationship and more a friendship.

Most people prefer ideas rather than a reality.

Whenever I am with one true student I am safe.

Kindness is a healing agent.

Soon you will find you must give everything you have to wake up, and then more.

276. Daily Cardiac - August 9, 2008

Ellen – 256:

Thank you for expounding of the N. quote and offering the link and the longer (in context) version.

It’s a little ironic because if this longer quote would be read as the opening thought to one of Robert’s meetings it would fit in perfectly with
what’s being presented in today’s FoF.

277. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

275 Daily Cardiac
O.K. What is being presented in today’s FOF meetings…..Pray tell……
Nigel.

278. Rear View Mirror - August 9, 2008

Paul 252. Your comments about those early days of the FOF are much appreciated.

“Note the quotes from Daniel D__is. He was to be the next #5 after Donald. He suddenly fell silent and sullen, then left.”

This is fairly obvious. But it probably needs to be said… About Daniel, there’s a good chance that Robert Burton was trying to get in his pants.

It’s incredible that this man continues to put forth the idea that the FOF reigns over the earth with spiritual superiority. The message behind the words is, “Do not think. But pretend you are thinking. And just believe and obey.”

279. Daily Cardiac - August 9, 2008

RVM – 274:

Regarding Robert trying to instill fear to encourage people to join and stay in the FoF; that fear can often be from within as this recent quote from Ellen suggests:

“But when you truly understand that the web of desires and fears deeply woven into the roots of your own sense of “me” is the problem, well, its different.”

Now it’s true that evoking fear could have been Robert’s aim – true in the sense that it (the reason you propose) falls into the realm of “all possible reasons.”

It also falls into the realm of “all possible reasons” that he was saying it because he believed it, and that it was true. And if you can play along with that possibility you can see that if it was true it would be prudent to say as much, so that the person could be alerted of the value of joining and staying.

I’m pretty sure you won’t admit this second viewpoint as a true possibility, but in a true discussion forum all sides of an issue are generally admitted and then the merits of each are discussed or taken into consideration.

280. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

278 Daily Cardiac
So joining and staying is what you have to do! Do you have an aim with regards to being a member of the FOF and, if so, what is it. Nigel.

281. nigel harris price - August 9, 2008

279
And don’t, for God’s sake, state “Being present”…..Nigel.

282. Rear View Mirror - August 9, 2008

DC 278. Well, this gets into the discussion of whether RB is simply “delusional” and truly believes many of the ideas that he conveys to his students, or if he is intentionally trying to deceive people, or maybe both.

Again, if you truly think about what Robert Burton is saying, you not only see the fear that it evokes, but you also see how it supports his agenda to have sex with as many of his followers that he can.

DC. Are you really thinking about it? Honestly? Does reading an entire library filled with Eastern religious ideas suggest that any of us understand what happens to us after we die?

Do you know that there’s a heaven and hell? Do you know that there is safety in being in the FOF, or danger in being outside of it? And if it’s a type of “bet” that you are making, then why not call it that? In other words, “I don’t know, but I’m placing my bet here. Good luck, ex-students.”

In that NOT knowing — when we look at each other and realize that mystery of our existence — I sense we are getting closer to something divine. But even that I cannot know. And unfortunately, I have no comforting words for you. I cannot reassure you and say that I know being an ex-student is a good thing, any more than being a student is a good thing. In both there is mystery and uncertainty.

But fear — I have quite a lot (partly from my experience in the FOF) by recognizing it, identifying it, and avoiding it. It has done very little for me. That much I know.

—————

AS I lay with my head in your lap, camerado,
The confession I made I resume — what I said to you in the open air I resume:
I know I am restless, and make others so;
I know my words are weapons, full of danger, full of death;
For I confront peace, security, and all the settled laws, to unsettle them;
I am more resolute because all have denied me, than I could ever have been had all accepted me;
I heed not, and have never heeded either experience, cautions, majorities, or ridicule;
And the threat of what is called hell is little or nothing to me;
And the lure of what is called heaven is little or nothing to me;
Dear camerado! I confess I have urged you onward with me, and still urge you, without the least idea what is our destination,
Or whether we shall be victorious, or utterly quelled and defeated.

–Walt Whitman

283. paulshabram - August 9, 2008

RVM and Cardiac
Just to be clear, the VDS was not for prospective “students”. Honestly, I don’t recall what the stated purpose was for the VDS. I think it was originally a newsletter invented by Stella and Harold. Robert must have seen some value in it when he took it over.

Cardiac 278
“It also falls into the realm of “all possible reasons” that he was saying it because he believed it, and that it was true. And if you can play along with that possibility you can see that if it was true it would be prudent to say as much, so that the person could be alerted of the value of joining and staying.”

I’m certainly not one to argue that anything is impossible, although i do us the word on occasion. But I will argue that there are some things that are so improbably as to essentially be impossible. When you go down the “all possible reasons” path you open up such notions as “Robert was really the Zodiac Killer”. Such a notion is not as far fetched as what you present “and that it was true”, given that for nearly four decades Robert has expressed, in writing, considerable hatred for humanity.

I truly wish you would not make these nearly moronic threads that are not even well disguised as logic. ” that he was saying it because he believed it, and that it was true. And if you can play along with that possibility you can see that if it was true it would be prudent to say as much, so that the person could be alerted of the value of joining and staying.” –That he may have believed it does not, in any way, make it true.

Did he really believe in the doomsday prophecies? Apparently not enough to divert much money or resources to a make serious preparations to protect the faithful you think he cares so much about.

If he is lying to himself, he is still lying.

284. Just Another Voice Out Here - August 9, 2008

278 DC

It’s not impossible that Jesus literally rose from the dead. I mean, we weren’t there, so how would we know? Might as well believe it.

285. fofblogmoderator - August 9, 2008

Pavel is helping me with the procedure to start a new discussion page. We’re getting close. It’s a bit tricky, but I should have page 44 up within 24 hours.

286. will coyote - August 9, 2008

http://www.rickross.com/reference/theater/theater13.html
History of the group

Teachers at the Gans schools never discuss the history of the group, and students who ask are often intimidated into never asking again. What is known is that Alex Horn established a group in northern California with his wife. Interestingly, one of Alex Horn’s early students was supposedly Robert Burton who later created the “Fellowship of Friends,” a group, which has often been called a “cult” and has a sordid history of sex scandals, bad press and lawsuit.

Sorry if you speak before of this, but it stroke me. How can Burton says of himself the only counscious man? And his Masters ? I am here on this blog to collect data on experiment of fourth way. My teory, very short, is that at the beginning there was searchers and one more adavanced searcher; after short time, because there was not a connection with the source all goes more and more ashtray. I am just come out from an italian esoteric school (sacsau of Patrizio Paoletti) and after 3o years the plot seems the same.

287. ton - August 9, 2008

285 will

“because there was not a connection with the source all goes more and more ashtray.”

this is a gem…
it expresses perfectly the crux of the situation.

288. veronicapoe - August 9, 2008

a gem, agreed!

289. brucelevy - August 9, 2008

285. will coyote

Gans’ cult dynamic is almost exactly the same for the FOF, almost word for word. This dynamic is present, more or less, in every cult structure. RB lifted a whole bunch of shit verbatim. What an original person. And then he fucks it up even more with the sequence. I guess his narcissism compels him to try to leave something unique. What a putz. Unfuckingbelievable.

290. wakeuplittlesuzywakeup - August 9, 2008

I like the going more and more ashtray theory by Will Coyote. Meow.

291. G is dead - August 10, 2008

Going ashtray… does that mean we’re going to last about as long as a lit cigarette? And in the end all that is left is ashes?

The Source is nothing but You. Any teacher that teaches anything other than that has a second agenda. There is no lack of both sincere and stupid students who will pay the price to be part of that agenda. Since most of what passes for spirituality and evolution is equal to the many shapes of self-interest, that agenda often takes the form of being abused and abusing. No surprise here.

Keep looking for the Source ‘out there’ and you go ashtray once more…

292. ton - August 10, 2008

RVM around 281

“DC 278. Well, this gets into the discussion of whether RB is simply “delusional” and truly believes many of the ideas that he conveys to his students, or if he is intentionally trying to deceive people, or maybe both.”

ya, you make a good point here. in the first case he “should” be in a padded cell…. in the second case, prison. the third option is “maybe both” and that’s where things fall through the cracks.

words from around 282 seem fitting in any case: “If he is lying to himself, he is still lying.”

but i’ll add that he’s lying to others too…. i.e. “students” or those gullible enough to literally buy into the bullshit. this is where “breach of fiduciary responsibility” enters into the teacher / student relationship…. of course that’s just my opinion.

and RVM, thanks for the whitman….. i think it would be a stronger poem without the gay innuendo in the first couple of lines… but that’s just my opinion.
:~)

hey lil’ suzy,
i’ll admit i like when you “meow.”

293. Renald - August 10, 2008

112. Yesri Baba – August 7, 2008
99
97
Ditto

More than ditto even, I wish I could have said it exactly like that first.
The post by Cynthia H. in GF is also in the same category.
For sure it will be great to have it repeated from time to time.
We+re not talking about cabbage here!
Thanks!

294. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

281 Rear View Mirror
I was just thinking ‘Maybe when we exit the FOF, we really have to think about our lives, what we truly want and what life is really about’. As I mentioned before – NO IMITATED AIMS – or – Robert thinks/says I should do this. In actual fact this post is open to all to answer…..Nigel.

295. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

That funny little Irish songwriter, in the 70’s, Gilbert O’Sullivan, wrote:- “This feeling inside me would never deny me the right to be wrong if I choose; and the pleasure I get from, say, winning a bet, is to lose”. Uncertainty, in my opinion, propels us to REAL efforts..Nigel.

296. Daily Cardiac - August 10, 2008

To RVM 281 & Paul 282:

RVM, thanks for the thoughtful comments and the poem. I would like to answer some of your questions; perhaps when some answers to Traveler’s questions are here they will also touch on your’s. I didn’t see any contradictions to my words in the W W poem so I assume you sent it because you thought I would enjoy it.

Paul said: “I truly wish you would not make these nearly moronic threads that are not even well disguised as logic.”

Me: ” that he was saying it because he believed it, and that it was true. And if you can play along with that possibility you can see that if it was true it would be prudent to say as much, so that the person could be alerted of the value of joining and staying.”

Paul: “That he may have believed it does not, in any way, make it true.”

A misunderstanding – RVM implied that Robert said made comments to evoke fear in people to join and stay in FoF. I said that was in the realm of “all possible reasons” as was the reason that Robert said it because he believed it was true, and that in fact it could be true.

I never meant to imply that Robert’s believing it made it true.

“Did he really believe in the doomsday prophecies? Apparently not enough to divert much money or resources to a make serious preparations to protect the faithful you think he cares so much about.”

There are about 100 homes in Oregon House built by students exclusively based on Robert’s prediction of 1998. Not to mention the relocation from the Bay Area of many of the homeowners. I would call that preparedness.

Regarding the predictions, Robert qualified all of them as I recall, at least from pre-1984 onward.

He qualified them by saying that Influence C gave the information and wanted us to work with it. He never once guaranteed a prediction. In fact he often said it’s anyone’s guess if they would happen or not and that we would only know Influence C’s plans when the time came.

297. Daily Cardiac - August 10, 2008

Will Coyote 285:

“because there was not a connection with the source all goes more and more ashtray.”

It was Robert, not Alex Horn, who introduced the No-Smoking exercise!

298. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

295 Daily Cardiac
Now that WAS moronic!

and

294 Daily Cardiac
The Book of Common Prayer (Anglican Church) makes the statement “…..world without end, Amen” (‘so be it’ – from the Judaeic). Also, should it actually happen, because God (yes, even He!) does not break His Holy Laws, I do not see how the predicted nuclear holocaust is going to ‘miss’ or ‘bypass’ the FOF property. On a note of ‘seeing things from the Gods/Angels’, yesterday I was shopping at the local supermarket, and saw a mountain bike in yellow/red (England’s warrior colours in ‘Henry V’, Shakespeare) with ‘APOLLO’ on the cross-bar and ‘UNLEASHED’ on the diagonal bar. I am a Solar by Essence and am the 45th Angel to work (now, as it is) with humanity. Put ‘two and two together’, stick it in your School Vanity Feature and work with it…………………………….Nigel.

299. paulshabram - August 10, 2008

Card 294
“There are about 100 homes in Oregon House built by students exclusively based on Robert’s prediction of 1998. Not to mention the relocation from the Bay Area of many of the homeowners. I would call that preparedness.”

Wow, I sure wouldn’t. What good is a new home if you have little to eat, no power, limited and possibly contaminate water, degrading medical supplies, and no way to generate the same in years to come. Not mention dealing with migrating refugee populations bringing disease and desperation and looking to take whatever resources you have. You think I’m talking about the aftermath of armageddon? You don’t even have to look at what has happened in Zimbabwe or Sudan with political unrest, or Asia after the Tsunami. That’s what happens with a 7.5 earthquake in California, or flooding in New Orleans.

Without going into the idiocy that California would fall into the ocean (the tectonic plates are in a strike-slip horizontal motion, silly), an earthquake of the required magnitude would surely have disrupted the Black Springs water source up on top of the hill at NeverLand and flattened everything standing.

BTW Oregon house is less than 20 miles away from a former Strategic Air Command base that used to have 12 B-52’s fully loaded with engines running, flight crews waiting, ready to implement a nuclear conflagration. Now-a-days it’s an important reconnaissance base that would act as information gathering to back up the satellites that would be knocked out in the first moments of a nuclear exchange. OH and the surrounding area undoubtably sits high in a first strike target list, so there was probably no point in preparing for 2006 (including building houses). Be assured that I could only understate the misery and hardship these events would bring. 100 houses!? Wow.

Will California suffer a very large earthquake. Yes, and you don’t need “Influence C” to figure that out, so the timing is what is at issue. As long as nuclear weapons exist there is a fairly high probability that they will be used. No godly prediction needed. Will the stock market crash on occasion or a depression reoccur? Yup. Leonardo could have saved his crayon.

What you say about Robert qualifying the predictions would tend to support the notion that he doesn’t really believe them. Every one of RB’s predictions have failed. Robert’s predictions are part of his control toolbox. The use of a doomsday scenario is highly characteristic of a cult leader. It doesn’t matter if they happen to be incorrect. There is always a story to explain away the failure. People invest in them at the time, like quitting jobs and careers, and building houses away from their families. Others follow; just in case. Once invested, even when the predictions fail to materialize, the vested followers are already locked in, bridges burnt, and maybe more than just a little relieved that sky didn’t fall; glad to have life go on.

But why hasn’t any of this occurred to you?

300. paulshabram - August 10, 2008

294 Card

Post Script: Thank you for the exchange.

301. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

297, 298 paulshabram
I do not need to thank you for your last posts (which are common sense [not so common in the FOF]) because I think all bloggers have a right, and perhaps a necessity to stand ‘in their own way’. Were you not the blogger who recently posted something containing “You, of all people should know that (disconnecting from practical reality”? Maybe you thought my last blog (296) was strange and bordering on the ‘REB DELUSIONAL’? However, I have no need to quibble with any person, in or out or on-the-fence of the FOF. I paraphrase Whitman – ‘If anyone agrees with me, I stand content and if anyone should disagree with me, I stand content’. My apologies for not looking you up, WW………………………………………………..Nigel.

302. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

Daily Cardiac et al.
You may have been watching the women’s archery in the Olympics. England v. France in the bronze play-offs. Could be a prelude to another ‘Battle of Agincourt’ – Lenity v. Renaissance (antic lisping antiquities – Romeo and Juliet). You may like to know from Applied Mathematics/Physics that the degree angle of trajectory for maximum distance is 45…..Nigel.

303. Ellen - August 10, 2008

#275, Daily Cardiac

You say:
“It’s a little ironic because if this longer quote would be read as the opening thought to one of Robert’s meetings it would fit in perfectly with what’s being presented in today’s FoF.”

Bullshit.

But go ahead. Show it to Robert. Bring more N. into the Propylaia database for senseless butchering. Still some people are actually listening instead of just hearing.

To say that Robert is teaching anything close to N.’s understanding is simply totally bass ackwards. Robert wouldn’t even deserve to lick N.’s boots – if he wore them – which he did not as he was mostly barefoot. But I have no interest in digressing into verbal battles here.

If you are saying you observe similarities between the passage and your own Fourth Way understanding, I can agree with that. There are many touching points where even the words are the same, but the meanings given to them differ. To discover the meanings, you need to dive to the depths, both of N. and yourself.

Find out what N. thinks about “life”. Or about first state. About consciousness and awareness and their difference. About the true and false guru – and believe me, he is not formatory. Or…

Good luck, grasshopper.

304. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

Dear Ellen
I would like to hear more about your N. mystic. Can I Google info on him? Please, if you do not want to put N.’s full name on the blog, could you email me on aprhys@nigelprice.net. Thanks…..Nigel.

305. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

Dear Ellen
‘I the question’ became (through the work of scrolling page-up) ‘I the answer’. I Googled in Nisargadatta the Mystic and clicked the first item (8 ‘essential’ pages, which I will read with my lunchtime pint in the Windsor Castle pub in Heavitree – suburb of Exeter, where I live). From the few passages I read, I can, almost in my Solar way, find solace in the idea of the ‘amness’ of childhood. Many thanks for the contact…..Nigel.

306. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

Daily Cardiac
Solar (naievete) Declaration goes to Martial attack, armed with Jovial (liberal arts) ammunition. Just to make sure that FOF and You have the ‘required documentation’, go to Google – ‘Sri Nisagadatta Maharaj: who were you before you were born?’ Ready? Go to ‘criticism’………………..”Vedanta was a reaction against the FOMALISTIC RITUALISM of Vedic Hinduism………………if they’d (Hindus) follow some prescribed METHOD or ritual, that IT WOULD AUTOMATICALLY lead to the redemption and liberation of their souls, ‘moksha’. But this ABSENT MINDED MURMURING OF PRAYERS AND DUMB-HEADED BRINGING OF OFFERINGS didn’t lead to anything. ONLY TO MORE STUPIDITY. Vedanta protested against this ritualism. They thought it was an INSULT AT RELIGION………We have to really UNDERSTAND, right to the DEEPEST LAYERS OF OUR SOUL, what we TRULY ARE and WHAT THE WORLD IS………which is more like an INTUITION OF THE SOUL than mere MENTAL KNOWLEDGE………………..the DEEPEST TRUTH IN OUR LIVES and become LIBERATED………….’jnana-yoga’.” (And to bring in ‘Wakeuplittlesuzywakeup’ in on the ‘evidence for the prosecution’) – “So the body and mind first have to cool down and become silent and peaceful. This cannot happen in a split second, as many Vedantists want us to believe. Why not? Because our body is in time. The body needs to destress itself first…………meditation must do the job, because meditation is a physical technique to make the nervous system healthy and relaxed again.. Then , with a healthy and peaceful body, are we finally able to REALIZE our TRUE IDENTITY (though we may ‘see’ it beforehand)………..(thanks to Ellen, again) For the LOSS of SELF is a process that spreads itself out over the years. It is the SPIRITUAL GROWTH OF A LIFETIME -INTELLECTUAL UNDERSTANDING IS NOT ENOUGH”. If you want my Real Name (as on the blog) translated, it is ‘Dark Champion of the Houseruler out of an Impetuous Man’…….I await your, probably absurd, again, reply…………………Nigel.

307. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

P.S. Daily Cardiac
Some of us (mostly ex-fof) have to say what they will do and do what they say. Unlike REB (and mostly fof), we have consciences to follow. Nigel

308. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

To Ellen
On 1st State – about 6 months ago, I was having recurring dreams about reconnecting with Real Friends I had made during my time in the FOF. Now, “Well, it’s like a dream come true” (Field of Dreams). Like you said to DC – “go deeper into yourself”. Love…..Nigel.

309. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

295 Daily Cardiac
If I wish to smoke, it is because I want to ‘soften the snap across the synaptic gap’. As N. stated “.destress the body and mind”…..Nigel.

310. Richard M. - August 10, 2008

294. Daily Cardiac
He never once guaranteed a prediction. In fact he often said it’s anyone’s guess if they would happen or not and that we would only know Influence C’s plans when the time came.
_________________________

Good to hear this. So I guess Burton changed his tune after I departed in 1996, or was it after 1998 when California never fell into the ocean. He sure did guarantee that the prophesies would happen before then. I guess you never spent time around him at that time.

Cardiac, you are saying that the hundreds of times Burton expressed his most committed convictions that his prophesies would happen, were not to be taken seriously. So, what does the man say that should be taken seriously now?
Sucker.

311. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

308 Richard M.
Sorry for ‘blog-hogging’ previously, but welcome on board (the lifeboat!)…..Nigel.

312. Ellen - August 10, 2008

Nige,
You are a prince.
Keep at it.
We knew each other in the 80’s (not well), I am glad to become reacquainted with you here, and now.

313. veronicapoe - August 10, 2008

In a book called When Prophecy Fails, by Leon Festinger et al., the authors observe the following sequence:

1. A cult leader predicts significant events will happen. In the Festinger book I think it was the arrival of a UFO.

2. The followers take significant steps in reliance on the belief that the events are going to happen. In the Festinger book I think it was selling off homes and possessions and quitting jobs.

3. The predicted events don’t happen.

4. The followers experience cognitive dissonance based on the nonoccurrence of the predicted events and the fact that they changed their lives in reliance on the belief that the events would occur.

5. The followers reduce the dissonance by INCREASING their commitment to the group and the leader: The nonoccurrence of the events happened for a reason!

314. Rear View Mirror - August 10, 2008

294. Daily Cardiac
“RVM, thanks for the thoughtful comments and the poem. I would like to answer some of your questions; …”

LOL. Good grief. Stop with the bullshit. You evade questions; you don’t answer them. You evade the answers as well.

DC, your role here is merely to obfuscate and distract. You’re here for PR and damage control. That’s all. Stop with the pretense that you’re hear for anything “thoughtful.”

And if anyone had any doubts about this, all they need to do is see your above lies about Burton’s predictions. It’s the same nonsense that editors of the wikipedia article encountered. All references to the predictions were deleted — one by one by one. Trying to rewrite history. Trying to remove anything embarrassing.

Screw the truth, they seemed to be saying. Let’s cover it up. We’re here to protect RB and the FOF.

What is this? Is that what the FOF has become? A form of mafia, where the main thing is loyalty? And truth and understanding have been sent to the shredder? THAT is “awakening”?

315. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

310 Ellen
Thanks, to you too, for the ‘nickname’. Nigel Mansell MBE, who was the 1992 World Formula One Grand Prix (car racing) Champion, got too big for his boots and insisted that he was referred to as ‘Mr Mansell’, when anyone was interviewed about him. You may be interested to know about a sculpture that is in Exeter High Street – it contains poems set in an 8-sided sort-of obelisk. One of the poems is about a ‘warrior on earth’. The final sentence is “…..But this warrior will savage anyone who tries to make him too proud”. With love, I am, yours truly…..Nigel.

316. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

313 – The “I” inside awakening, signified by the number 33…..N.

317. Rear View Mirror - August 10, 2008

311. They can add a step 6. “Pretend the cult leader was never serious about the predictions, or that he never made them.”

On another note…

NIGEL!!! …. Oh, never mind. 🙂

Hey, ton, yeah, I see what you mean. But I read that passage as being rather platonic, didn’t you? A tender romantic moment. You’ve never rested your head on your partner’s lap, and vice versa? Try it sometime. It’s cool.

318. Rear View Mirror - August 10, 2008

Nigel, keep posting, dude. I had a moment of temporary keyboard insanity above. But any reason you can’t combine them into one post?

319. Rear View Mirror - August 10, 2008

See, three in a row and people have already tuned me out (assuming they didn’t several pages back.)

Take care.

320. nigel harris price - August 10, 2008

317 Rear View Mirror
Don’t worry! I caught you. I make sure I go online and then scroll back up to where I left off. I don’t just ‘spark off’ for the hell of it. And the reason for several posts – well, like the rest of us, I suppose. I can’t MAKE my thoughts. They occur to me (many ‘I’s?) and I catch the ‘clouds of thinking’ as my PRESENCE needs them. (Another Eastern PHILOSOPHY ‘trick’. Does that help?…..Nigel.

321. fofblogmoderator - August 10, 2008

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