Fellowship Of Friends/Living Presence/Pathway To Presence Discussion – Part 107 August 5, 2011
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Fellowship of Friends - Living Presence Discussion 
It took me 20 years of staying in the fellowship to finally leave; 5 years to deprogram myself; 10 more years to not be angry about it anymore. It’s a process and not an easy one.
I heard that a FF email went out to its members that said Abe had suffered from “instinctive friction” and that he had been scheduled to have another operation regarding his hearing problem on Monday.
To dismiss what Abe must have been going through as “instinctive friction” is so typical of the FF’s attempt to diminish someone’s suffering through the manipulation of concepts.
This is not about whether a person liked or respected Abe, or not. It is to recognize how the FF insulates its members from deeply feeling or thinking about something like intense physical suffering or disability and what it does to a person (hi, debilitating chronic pain, anyone?) and their relationship to the world, or their “self-image.”
In addition, it was reported that Abe left letters for each member of his family.
221 For the record,
I´m sorry, but I don´t think we would have a lot to talk about if we would meet, if you can´t tell if I´m for real.
2
Yes, there is a point here. This is how cults are treating people. But honestly, I almost don´t have any hope for those who still are in to learn the lesson.
I apologize for my earlier remark about destroying letters. It was speculative, and wrong.
Obviously, he had been planning this for some time.
X-ray: “I almost don´t have any hope for those who still are in to learn the lesson.”
I sometimes feel the same, so I know what you mean. On the other hand, when we were still in, many people said and felt the same about us.
William, I wouldn’t apologize for saying something that was speculative. You made a good point by stating it that way. I think a lot of things are left unsaid out of the fear of being slightly off, or wrong. It’s a little like hearing the string quartet with an off-note, but I’m happy I heard it.
Sally, I’m very glad you made it through the labyrinth, and that you’re sharing your insights.
My understanding now is that using the system or any other technique exclusively only puts blankets on your existing problems (especially emotional ones) so in the end it’s way more difficult to see them. In fact as someone said above it becomes its own opposite and to know oneself becomes more difficult.
x-ray:
“I wasn´t with the Christ at the time, so I don´t know what he actually said.”
Nor were you with AG when he hung himself, yet you seem quite willing to make quite a few judgements about his intentions.
But you are right, Christ died a long time ago. And from the descriptions of his death, apparently by your standards he was mentally ill…along with people like Gandhi and others who teach non-violent rebellion.
Maybe in your country they lablel compassion as a mental illness, I don’t know.
I mean, why show compassion at a person who is your sworn enemy? (I’ll give you a hint-it has something to do with retaining your humanity.)
Now, if your enemy is shooting at you, well, that’s a different story. Everyone has a right to defend themselves…but does the matador deserve to kill the charging bull after making its life a painful hell?
Oh, and you didn’t answer my question, if you believe in good vs. evil, do you also believe in magic?
X-ray,
I probably did misunderstand that Japanese martial artist because I didnt read all of his bio/quotes. What I thought he refered to was related to martial arts.
I assume that in fighting martial arts it’s best to be calm and not charge around like an uncontrolled berserker.
Although, Bruce Lee said it’s best to practice with a berserker. I guess because they are wild.
Whale,
Are you among those people who can only make an empty claims?
What exactly did I said about his intention?
And before getting into magic, I suggest you first get black and white thing straight.
´I mean, why show compassion at a person who is your sworn enemy? (I’ll give you a hint-it has something to do with retaining your humanity´)
No, Whalerider,
I´ll tell you straight, it has something to do with retaining your stupidity.
Besides, Whalerider, I think you mixing oranges and apples, and your thinking isn´t clear because the very thing we arguing about.
I didnt know Mr. Abe Goldman nor ever met him. Can’t say why he did himself in.
Maybe his girlfriend or wife left him and depression set in.
Maybe he was tired of his physical health and the pain or discomfort of it.
Dont know cant say, except he did go into the ‘dark night of the soul’
that place where you scream, eli, eli lama sabachani.
Been there myself.
9
It is always best to be calm, until someone is trying to step on your feets.
6. For the record – August 6, 2011
´I sometimes feel the same, so I know what you mean. On the other hand, when we were still in, many people said and felt the same about us.´
I don´t know if this is fair comparison, since we were not informed back then as they are now with the help of Internet.
Part 106 Post 185 – My2Bits
M2B, would you please re-post your powerful testimony to this page? It should not be overlooked. Thanks.
This is a reposting of Part 106, #185, per Tim’s request:
As a contribution to the ongoing discussion of AG’s tragic suicide, its possible causes and import, I would like to share some of my own experiences. AG was who he was, and did what he did, and I do not see any point in disparaging the dead. As a student, I admired his dedication.
A few years ago, I left the Fellowship quietly and with a determination to not look back. I then entered a period of despair with strong suicidal undertones. Although I never for a moment regretted my decision to leave after 30 years of membership, I felt that I had lost everything. In material terms, this was quite so.
I had always been adept at “rising from the ashes” and moving on. But this time, at my age and in my dire circumstances, my chances of accomplishing this feat once again were not good. I made a number of last-ditch efforts to support myself, but found no safety net. The thought of suicide arose as a reasonable way to tidy up the mess my life had become. I sold all my belongings and began to put my affairs, or what were left of them, in order.
With what funds remained on a credit card, I spent two days at Lake Tahoe, walking and reflecting, writing good-bye letters to my remaining family, enjoying fine food and wine, and even smoking a good cigar. I then purchased some red roses for myself and drove to the place I had chosen to end my life.
I spent many hours sitting by a beautiful lake with a .45 pistol aimed at my heart. I listened on my iPod to a few of my favorite classical music pieces. I took 10 strong pain-killers, washing them down with a nice brandy. The sun traversed the sky and set; the stars were coming out. It was time. I squeezed the trigger to its first safety position, but could not pull it further. The simple thought arose — There is Love. And yes, I hate making a mess. I wondered who might hear the shot or who would discover my body. I wanted someone to find me, to rescue me. I got up, reeled a bit, packed up my things, and drove back into town where I stayed the night in a motel. The next day, my recovery began.
I won’t try to describe what my life is like now, what motivates or sustains me, or what I see my spiritual path to be. It doesn’t matter to you – it’s my dream. What I do want to tell you, dear reader, if you need to hear it, is that there is, indeed, a way out of the “small pond” called the Fellowship of Friends and into a larger and more real world. You don’t need to be as dramatic about it as I was.
5. William – Evidently so. The impression I got was that AG was thinking of his family, not just of himself. However, I am keeping in mind that it was reportage, versus someone saying that they had seen the actual letters.
9. Arthur – You probably know that learning to control oneself and one’s anger is one of the first precepts of martial arts, when it is studied as a “way.” If you lose your cool, you’ve given the enemy an advantage. Enemies are construed as internal, as well as external.
14. X-ray – You’re supposed to be alert enough to get your feet out of the way first.
17. My2Bits
Thanks for this. And I’m sure others will want to hear what motivates and sustains you…when it is time to share that.
18
Not always getting out of the way is right solution. Sometime you have to stay in people´s face to find resolution.
183. Nick
“Over the course of time, it affects you deeply. The fact that there’s only you to wake up at 3 a.m and clear up the waste products, and that is ‘you’, your role, kinda leaves you nowhere to go. None of your other roles or achievements in life matter. It makes you face yourself in a way that maybe, you’ve never quite managed before.”
Yeah, I also did the 3a.m. clean-up of what you tactfully call “waste products”. Those are the facts of life. We eat, we eliminate; we also hope that as we ourselves age, we won’t be dependent on any one to help us with those basic bodily functions. We want to retain a sense of dignity. I wonder how “dignity” is interpreted (aka “dismissed”) in the FF: “the machine’s vanity about its instinctive center”?
Having said that, I’ve heard about individual FF members devotedly looking after their friends when they were in their final illnesses. I’ve given some thought as to what the older and middle aged FF members assume will happen when they each become unable to function, especially as more and more of the FF ages. I’m not sure what the current FF position is on ordinary, human kindness and helping one’s neighbor, etc.
And your comment about “facing yourself in a way that maybe, you’ve never quite managed before: This may not be exactly what you experienced, but in those final months, I had many moments of, “is this really happening?” If you’re the main person responsible for a dying parent on a day-to-day basis, there is sometimes a disbelief that you’re doing some of the things you’re doing. And when it’s over, you ask yourself what survives from that person, when their body is gone. How much of it is them, how much of it is your memory of them.
Re. 21 – Shirley `s “ And when it’s over, you ask yourself what survives from that person, when their body is gone. How much of it is them, how much of it is your memory of them.“
My speculations:
What if under hypsosis or using any other method I could have access to another person`s memories, alive or dead? Just suppose for a short time that it is possible. How would this affect you? Certainly denial is an option. Beyond denial then as regards the above quote.
I don`t think this is so far fetched. After all I can access memories that I had after I had lost the connection to them using hypnosis.
Yes, but they were your connections, not someone else`s. So what if we are all connected as some say. That would seemingly be the proof. Is that not what psychic people profess that they can do, read others` memories?
To answer Shirley, then I propose that your memory of them is woven alongside of their memories of themselves (their experiences, their programs, etc.) , their memories of their parents and grandparents and so on all the way to Oneness. Further such memories could combine to shape our superconscious(or call it anything you wish) from which we receive inspirations. This would answer the mystery of why I suddenly decided to post about courts of law and how they view insanity as well as my imaginary spoof of reb speaking to Abraham on the very day of his suicide. In my readiness to receive inspiration more doors than usual were opened to me. Well its a theory, a possibilty anyways, one which I will allow to creep in more often and see where it takes me.
Cheers!
“Instinctive Friction”
Now there’s a concept. AG had too much instinctive friction.
It was the instinctive friction that he was suffering from that got him….yes, otherwise known as getting old and not being able to make a living…or membership payments.
Nevermind the emotional or the intellectual “friction”, AG was undoubtedly suffering from as well.
Hey Jomo,
Did you know that in America is now a criminal act to drink or sell a raw milk?
Have you heard about the arm raid of an organic farm in LA? When swat team stormed a small farm and charged the owners with a conspiracy to commit a crime to sell a raw product. They illegally destroyed thousands of dollars worth of a raw milk pouring it into the drain, when next door there was a shelter for the homeless starving people. They arrested the owners and released them on huge bail and put a gag order on them stripping them of their First Amendments rights prohibiting them to speak to any member of the press, tweet or blog about the raid, sending emails about the case and communicating in any way verbally or non verbally about the raid.
Just a page ago you have guaranteed to Ames that Constitution is alive and well, but learning about this raid brings some serious doubts.
http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=C3E8939361903F2070B97B579F08F7F5
x-ray:
“I suggest you first get black and white thing straight.”
This is where we might differ philosophically speaking. I happen to ascribe to the “modified non-dualistic”, yin/yang model of the universe…nothing is completely black or white.
There’s always a little of the one in the other. Don’t you find that to be true?
(As I write that, I realize what an elegant model! There’s a little of you in me and a little of me in you. We are not completely separate beings.)
There’s a little bit of sleep when you are awake like when we daydream, and a little bit of consciousness when asleep while dreaming.
If you look hard enough, you can find a little bit of good in the bad and a little bad in too much of the good.
The only reality that is “black or white” as you say, IMO, is the difference between life or death. You’re either alive or you’re not.
Now if you happen to believe in the magical, in-between, spirit world hovering above the dinner table as pastor burton does, that’s a different story altogether.
Maybe death is black or white and maybe it isn’t…and AG’s tortured spirit is roaming the blog right now in search of peace, appearing in our dreams and stirring up old memories.
You know, I remember an African American chap I once met in the unit who was in because he’d climbed a bridge and was going to jump off. “Why didn’t you jump?” I asked him at one point. He told me that some white guy in a convertible who was frustrated at the gridlocked traffic, yelled at up him, “Jump, you son of a bitch!” and he didn’t want to give the guy the satisfaction of doing what the guy told him to do.
Sometimes people don’t need much of a reason to live.
I don’t really know if being stuck in-between life and death is any better, all I can do is make the most of this life for myself and others.
~*~
I’d like to thank everyone out there for showing up here and for sharing your personal thoughts, even the unpopular ones.
Didn`t you learn anything in school?
There is no justice in this world and we have what little there is and we need injustice for our evolution.
Cheers!
“Instinctive Friction”?
“We eat, and we eliminate” and who will change the adult diapers and do the wiping at the farm?
I dont know?
I have fourth or last stage copd. It doesnt mean near death, it just means it’s worse that the first three.
In January I was hospitalized with pneumonia, blood infection and failing kidneys. Blessed be those who wipe.
I live alone sans next of kin, associates and aquantances. So, for me the wiping will be done in a nursing center.
Somebody said, “growing old is not for sissies”. Amen!
Cant say anything about the elderly at the farm but hope for their best.
Oh before I forget (another sign of brain damage?) Somebody up above and back there wrote a well written description of Richard (cant spell his last name) the hairdresser/chef.
That’s exactly how I remember him.
Re. 25 – Whalerider, in my opinion a great post.
“ Sometimes people don’t need much of a reason to live.“
and I would add …or to die.
Sometimes people don`t need much of a reason to laugh….or cry.
Our daughter when she was 5 or 6 could not stop crying because of some minor thing which happened to her, She then asked me to get her a paper bag in the midst of her heart wrenching sobs. Why?
Because she had learned that blowing in the bag would enable her to stop crying. Otherwise the more she fought against crying the worse it got.
The more people fought against capitalism, the more they got.
The more people fought against communism, the more they got.
How is that possible? Well there is a lot of room out there, plenty for everyone, especially when an individual takes up so little space, so little energy. Who got more capitalism? The Russian or Iron Curtain block. Who got more communism? China, Tibet even.
Some fight against Mexican immigrants. They say that there are about 12 million of then in the USA now. Some fight against Islam. Well it is becomiong more and more clear where that is going.
Where is fighting against Burton going to take us? More burtonesque cult builders, especially in Northern California where the information on how to do it is more readily available.
What is the answer, fight against what you do want? That could help some but not the fighters. How about appreciating what you do like?
How about enjoying what you do like? Nah! Too much like fairy tales, or like magical stuff. Everybody know magic is not real, well almost everybody. It is just a trick, like blowing into a paper bag to stop crying. So silly! I vote for paper bags. I am enjoying posting right now, right here. I am sorry if my doing so upsets you. Please forgive me. I am so grateful that this blog still exists. I mean it sure looked like it was on its last legs for a while. Hugs to all, no wait……
hugging is so fof-ish. Besides it reminds me of the time I tried to hug burton after a dinner. He pushed me away. It was as if he was wearing a gun holster under his oversized jacket and didn`t want anyone to find out about it. Just a thought, a very old one still clinging to my neurology. Should I push it away or should I accept it?
And what does it mean to “ Resist ye not evil“ ? Hmmm. Until next time, cheers!!
28. Arthur
Richard Focazio.
The last time I saw Richard was in the town hall.
He was wearing an overcoat on a warm day (I assume to hide his weight loss) and he told me he was moving to Hawaii. I didn’t (or didn’t want to) realize he was going there to die.
A sweet guy – thanks for the memory, Arthur..
Shirley, you seem to know more than the rest of us. It appears Abraham was planning this for quite some time, quite methodically.
I know Abraham’s personal devotion to Robert, and his regular access to him. And Robert was unrelenting in his insistence that suicides lose all possibility for evolution, go to the end of the line, yada yada yada.
Did he tell Robert of his plans? Did he discuss this with Robert? Or did he do this in defiance of Robert’s teaching?
I liked Richard Facazio he ‘photographed’ me once which created memory until this day. Shocked me he did. The last time I saw Richard I think it was in Arizona.
I never knew about his private affairs and it was shocking to find out.
Never knew he was married. Last I saw him was with Margaret and dont know what became of that.
No, thank you for the memory.
Sorry that was for “We Where There” (30).
I’ve been enthralled by My2bits (17) powerful post.
I’m wondering if Mr. Abe Goldman entered that same psychological space. The description My2bits submitted sounds like to me “the dark night of the soul” from Saint John of the Cross.
In Renald’s language, “La noche oscura del alma”.
It’s ‘spiritual path’ related. I cant believe Mr. Abe Goldman wasnt affected spiritually by his closeness to all the sacred writings. Was he a complete devil?
Mother Theresa was said to have entered that space and stayed for decades. Some ‘pop’ from the heat and some just endure.
I’ve been there.
On the Cross Jesus is made to say, “My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me”.
That’s what it feels like.
Sorry Arthur. John of the Cross’s “Dark Night of the Soul” is not a pit stop in spiritual decline, after one has made a series of bad spiritual choices and is reaping the inevitable fruits. Nor is it simply a metaphor for darkness and despair.
It’s a way station on the path of holiness. It’s a specific point in a spiritual journey. The FOF doesn’t even come close to this stuff.
I recommend the book.
Hopelessness is a very debilitating emotion placing one’s self in the center of the universe without a paddle. Options disappear and overwhelming emotions of fear and doubt take their place. I’m sure most of us have experienced this but not everyone is of the mind to commit suicide.
This is from the previous page-
185. My2Bits – August 5, 2011
As a contribution to the ongoing discussion of AG’s tragic suicide, its possible causes and import, I would like to share some of my own experiences. AG was who he was, and did what he did, and I do not see any point in disparaging the dead. As a student, I admired his dedication.
A few years ago, I left the Fellowship quietly and with a determination to not look back. I then entered a period of despair with strong suicidal undertones. Although I never for a moment regretted my decision to leave after 30 years of membership, I felt that I had lost everything. In material terms, this was quite so.
I had always been adept at “rising from the ashes” and moving on. But this time, at my age and in my dire circumstances, my chances of accomplishing this feat once again were not good. I made a number of last-ditch efforts to support myself, but found no safety net. The thought of suicide arose as a reasonable way to tidy up the mess my life had become. I sold all my belongings and began to put my affairs, or what were left of them, in order.
With what funds remained on a credit card, I spent two days at Lake Tahoe, walking and reflecting, writing good-bye letters to my remaining family, enjoying fine food and wine, and even smoking a good cigar. I then purchased some red roses for myself and drove to the place I had chosen to end my life.
I spent many hours sitting by a beautiful lake with a .45 pistol aimed at my heart. I listened on my iPod to a few of my favorite classical music pieces. I took 10 strong pain-killers, washing them down with a nice brandy. The sun traversed the sky and set; the stars were coming out. It was time. I squeezed the trigger to its first safety position, but could not pull it further. The simple thought arose — There is Love. And yes, I hate making a mess. I wondered who might hear the shot or who would discover my body. I wanted someone to find me, to rescue me. I got up, reeled a bit, packed up my things, and drove back into town where I stayed the night in a motel. The next day, my recovery began.
I won’t try to describe what my life is like now, what motivates or sustains me, or what I see my spiritual path to be. It doesn’t matter to you – it’s my dream. What I do want to tell you, dear reader, if you need to hear it, is that there is, indeed, a way out of the “small pond” called the Fellowship of Friends and into a larger and more real world. You don’t need to be as dramatic about it as I was.
#35 is new
I predict that pastor burton will eventually spin AG’s suicide in the following polarizing manner:
“…be present, be strong, be one of us, the lower self is always lurking in the background, ready to strike, and can overtake your higher self when you are weakest and alone. Look what happened to AG and those whom have left the way. Keep working on only thinking positive thoughts.”
This is indeed the way, in the name of skewed positive thinking, that pastor burton masks his harmful actions.
Well, I’d say that even after so many years of practice, AG’s chosen church and religion failed him when he needed it the most.
We all have “negative” thoughts. That’s what makes people laugh at so-called “black humor”. (Hey, guess what happens if you hang around pastor burton too long? You eventually hang yourself.)
We are not judged by our “negative”, thoughts, no matter how “evil” or dark, but by our actions.
Great to hear all the voices, new and familiar.
Sockpuppet (35)
I havent read the poem or book. I thought it was a ‘phase’ one went through.
Anyway, it’s too esoteric for me.
But thanks for the information you provided. It sounds true.
I’m thinking about re-reading Maurice Nicolls Commentaries and kinda start over and maybe learn something from his point of view, that I never got before.
Re. 39 – Whalerider – “ We are not judged by our “negative”, thoughts, no matter how “evil” or dark, but by our actions.“ In bold print yet.
I don`t get it. Who is going to do the judging, where and when?
Then, what will be the outcome of the judgement ?
I am not being sarcastic or anything and certainly not argumentative.
I probably missed something to do with context.
Cheers!
For Abe, who one’s helped me for free when I was in trouble.
Renald:
The context is this:
In life the only time we are formally judged is in a court of law, correct? In court, we are judged for our actions, not our thoughts. You can think all you want about doing something illegal, but until you do something illegal, (which includes taking steps in the planning of an illegal act), you have not broken any laws.
Also, if we are accused of doing something illegal, we are entitled to have our actions judged by a jury of our peers, not just by those in power, and jury duty is part and parcel of a being a member of a free society.
Cults, on the other hand, are not a free society; someone is always sitting at the top of the cult judging, (like or friend x-ray) good or evil, asleep or awake, etc. and cults practice thought control through through reform techniques. If you express your “negative”, “bad”, or “evil” thoughts, you can be judged for them and kicked out, so you learn to repress them or else.
What I am saying is that pastor burton’s cult expects one to banish “negative” thoughts and feelings, and fit into the cult mold; there is no room for full expression of feelings or thoughts, even the dark ones, and tragedy happens.
In or out, out or in. What does it matter? We are all the same, mostly.
It’s just that some of us are under more laws than than some of the others. Of course in the beginning, people join the FOF hoping to become freer from” laws” only to find that they are now under even more “laws”( Robert). The realization of one’s predicament can be unsettling
’23. WhaleRider – August 6, 2011
“Instinctive Friction”
Now there’s a concept. AG had too much instinctive friction.
It was the instinctive friction that he was suffering from that got him….yes, otherwise known as getting old and not being able to make a living…or membership payments.
Nevermind the emotional or the intellectual “friction”, AG was undoubtedly suffering from as well.’
What about K*v*n K*lly? Quadriplegic, paralyzed mostly from neck on down, for the decades I knew him, who barely could manage physically to get himself to the place to end his life. He was pronounced ‘unworthy’ by REB!
* * * * * *
’28. Arthur – August 6, 2011
Oh before I forget (another sign of brain damage?) Somebody up above and back there wrote a well written description of Richard (cant spell his last name) the hairdresser/chef.
That’s exactly how I remember him.’
Page104/12. Wouldnt You Like To Know did that writing.
In that sense, in FoF speak, the observations, and the recounting of them, are a bit more ‘objective’ as we saw similar things there, re: RF.
Arthur, I am glad to see you writing here and still on the planet. Yes, we know each other. My Texas times are a long ways off. Be well, my friend.
* * * * * *
’29. Renald – August 6, 2011
Some fight against Mexican immigrants. They say that there are about 12 million of then in the USA now. Some fight against Islam. Well it is becomiong more and more clear where that is going.’
Roseanne Barr, who declared she is running for U.S. Presidency on the Jay Leno Show recently, said (in humorous fashion – amongst many other things), and I paraphrase: Oh! the U.S. should invade México, they’ve got oil! And, besides, after taking possession, it could be annexed into the U.S. of A. That would solve the immigation problem! She also said that her vice-president would be ALL the voting age registered voters in the U.S. (She’ll be using group intelligence, concensus decision making process and compassionate communication (not to mention humor) as mainstays to her governance, no doubt.)
She now lives in Hawai’i on an organic macadamia nut farm and singularly is personally attempting to save the world.
* * * * * *
’39. WhaleRider – August 6, 2011
We are not judged by our “negative”, thoughts, no matter how “evil” or dark, but by our actions.’
That is only partially true. Have you heard the term: premeditated? In a court of law, what you were thinking, when you commit a crime, certainly comes into the adjudication. So does what you were/are feeling. Remorse, or lack thereof, is taken into consideration.
Spiritually, perhaps it was Christ that said, again, paraphrased: That thinking an action is all the same as doing the action itself, possibly worse.
#44
Interesting number 44. So it was you talking about Richard Facazio.
It was good of you to speak about him like you did.
I should write things down before I forget about them.
James Bryant wrote about still holding on to the 4th Way ideas or some of them anyway. I can see that too.
It beats sitting a bar contemplating your next move?
Anyway, I havent been to Houston, Texas since 1979.
I think Robert Burton poisoned the 4th Way well for many people. And if what the books say is true, that’s not good for him.
Whoever you are, thanks and take care yourself.
Re. 42 – Whalerider “ In life the only time we are formally judged is in a court of law, correct?“
I guess I missed the `formally`. There is a whole lot of other judging going on though, most of which is self-judging, not that the majority is aware of it. Then there is another whole lot of judging others, usually in a negative way going on, both of which do not lead to much joy and happiness for anyone. Some say that the latter is merely a projection of the former. I wouldn`t know.
I plead guilty on that count too. With a little effort I manage to forgive myself for that nasty little habit. It is a little selfish of a thing to do since I notice that I feel better when I forgive myself. If I feel better then it must surely be selfish. Why I even feel good about using the pronoun `I`, That for sure is selfish. Why at times, and I don`t do drugs, I feel so good I wish that others would join me in my happiness.
Naturally what they do is their business. Whatever turns their crank, as they say.
Cheers!
31. William, that is all I know.
27. Arthur, my experience of looking after my father for 8+ years when he was in his mid/late 80s (broken leg and then cancer) is that it is about quality of life. Most people want to age in place, stay at home where things are familiar and comfortable. But it may not be possible. My father’s mind was intact until just about the very end. I’ve thought about the aging process a lot in recent years, not only because of my caretaking experience, but because my non-FF women friends in NY discuss it and try to prepare for it. The “wiping” of our waste products is physical; not a pretty sight, but someone has to do it. And there are the emotional and mental sides of aging: trying to maintain a good emotional life when your mobility becomes so limited that you’re confined to your home. We don’t realize how depressing that is until we’ve experienced it. Then there’s the all-important mental clarity. I’m looking after my surviving parent, and her mind has a lot of blips. Where would she be if I weren’t here, looking after every single detail, from her food planning to her household affairs? We say blithely (I don’t mean you), “She’d be in the nursing home.” Really? Who would put her there if I were not in the picture? Who would pay those bills and get her meds straight, or her end of life arrangements? Someone once said that if you don’t have family to care for you when you’re old, to “spend all of your money down and go on Medicaid, which will pick up the tab on the nursing home.” I question the wisdom of that in this political environment of increasing cutbacks.
I was intubated once and had to spend about 32 days in a nursing home. It’s better to be home.
I dont have visitors coming around anymore on a regular basis, all I have is an 18 year old who I have known for long while. She cleans the place but not me. I’m still able bodied in a lot ways.
And, I have an every other week home nursing service.
But, who knows what will happen with the “cuts” . I get my lung medicine from the VA with no co-pay. As long as I get that I think I’ll make it until they find my skeleton.
When I was in the hospital in January I asked for a ‘spiritual’ counselor because wrapped around my sickness was a desire to quit.
What I got for my asking was a psycho-ward attendant for two nights.
I’m learning how to act around certain people. One told me that the state could step in as an elderly person not being cared for.
My neighbors across the street hired me to take care of the husband after the hospice people left. Once he asked me for a straight razor blade. His wife in the kitchen asked why. He said to cut out coupons.
I got the straight razor and he cut his wrists . He recovered.
Part of my job was to exercise his legs by bending them at the knees, and then putting him in a wheel chair, and rolling him into the kitchen where he finally refused to eat. Ensure was all he wanted one sip at a time.
One day after the exercise I got him to the edge of the bed and ready for pick-up when he said he didnt feel good. I arranged him back and asked whether he needed anything. No response he died very calmly.
I guess it’s whatever happens happens.
Sorry, here we go again, my grammar is not good. My job across the street was a few years ago when I was more able to lift old men.
42 is new
Arthur
I am glad you are sharing – difficult subject, ageing and facing the deterioration of functions. Partly due to age and partly due to the ‘downer’ medications I take, I no longer have that frantic energy that I had when in the FOF. I cannot run for a bus, let alone run as physical activity to bring my weight down (caused by my meds and the real ale I like to drink). I have only twice felt suicidally depressed since my messy exit from the cult and have been still sane enough to ask for help from the Crisis Team and allow myself to be hospitalized.
I think there is both a self-centred sadness and, perhaps, relief when sexual energy no longer is so demanding of physical expression and satisfaction/gratification. I find I can talk to all ages and types of women without wanting to ‘bed’ them.
I was talking with my GP earlier this year and we noted that we were both of a similar age (early-50’s) and we were perhaps in the prime of our life – still active and strong in our seperate professions, yet relaxed enough to cope with, shall I say, stressful situations without caring too much about what others may think about us, but also able to be aware of what they might need from us.
Arthur, I am hoping you have caring friends and professional help, although I am still aghast at how mercenary the whole Health Profession is in the USA. May the Universe and its Kind Laws bless you…..Nigel.
‘The Prayer’ – sung by Andrea Bocelli…..
“I pray you’ll be our eyes, and watch us where we go.
And help us to be wise in times when we don’t know.
Let this be our prayer, when we lose our way.
Lead us to a place, guide us with your grace
To a place where we’ll be safe.
La luce che tu dai
Nel cuore restera
A ricordarci che
L’eterna stella sei.
I pray we’ll find your light,
And hold it in our hearts
When stars go out each night,
Remind us where you are..
Nella mia preghiera
Quanta fede c’e.
Lead us to a place ?
Let this be our prayer
When shadows fill our day
Guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we’ll be safe.
Sogniamo un mondo senza piu violenza,
Un mondo di giustizia e di speranza.
Ognuno dia una mano al suo vicino,
Simbolo di pace…di fraternita.
La forza che ci dai
E desiderio te
Ognuno trovi amor
Intorno e dentro se.
Let this be our prayer,
Just like every child.
We ask that life be kind
And watch us from above.
We hope each soul will find
Another soul to love.
Let this be our prayer,
Just like every child.
Needs to find a place, guide us with your grace
Give us faith so we’ll be safe
E la fede che hai acceso in noi
Sento che ci salverai…
Maybe the Italian in 53 is being sung to us by Richard Facazio?????
Shirley 21
“Yeah, I also did the 3a.m. clean-up of what you tactfully call “waste products”. Those are the facts of life. We eat, we eliminate; we also hope that as we ourselves age, we won’t be dependent on any one to help us with those basic bodily functions. We want to retain a sense of dignity. I wonder how “dignity” is interpreted (aka “dismissed”) in the FF: “the machine’s vanity about its instinctive center”?”
Chances are that we probably will become dependent on someone sometime later in life. As the bodily functions begin to deteriorate, it brings out the true quality of the relationship between the people involved, carer and dependent. I learned that an enormous amount of patience is needed, and on both sides. Patience when you think you your patience is exhausted, time and again. I think the sense of dignity comes from the quality of that relationship.
As you say, it would probably be rephrased in the FoF as “the machine’s vanity about its instinctive center”. As with the explanation of Abraham Goldman’s suicide as due to ‘instinctive friction’, it shows how far FoF terminology has moved away from the actual content of experience. I guess ‘Buffer’ would be a good word for it. There’s a fundamental unwillingness to face the reality of inner and outer facts there, and act responsibly towards them. All you’re left with as a current member is the dismissal of any experience not meeting the Fellowship gold standard.
“Having said that, I’ve heard about individual FF members devotedly looking after their friends when they were in their final illnesses. I’ve given some thought as to what the older and middle aged FF members assume will happen when they each become unable to function, especially as more and more of the FF ages.”
I guess this is a real issue now, as many of the founding father generation must be 65+. It will be a real test of the group as a whole, though it’s encouraging to hear that some are taking up the challenge.
“And when it’s over, you ask yourself what survives from that person, when their body is gone. How much of it is them, how much of it is your memory of them.”
I did have a definite experience just after my Mum died, and it felt positive, though I can’t comment further as I don’t feel it’s been fully absorbed or understood yet.
It may or may not be of interest that I heard second hand that Burton had told an older student that the property where Abe Goldman built his mansion, across from Shakespeare Meadow had been slated to be a retirement home for older students. He had called it `the house on the hill` .Somehow that changed as did many other supposed projects for which donations were solicited and for which funds had been bequeathed by members who died.
He cannot be trusted to follow through on his finer ideas and this has been proven time and time again.
Cheers!
40. You’re a good sort, Arthur.
Arthur – 46 “I think Robert Burton poisoned the 4th Way well for many people. And if what the books say is true, that’s not good for him.”
It’s our ego that wants to have found “the way.” To be different, better, separate from all of those people out there. To have found “the school”, “the teacher”, the meaning of life that few others were ever able to find. They can build massive bridges and cities and compose symphonies, but we’re a step above all of that. We’ve found “the way.” That’s what lured us in. But even good fiction (the fourth way) has some truth in it, or it wouldn’t be interesting. It wouldn’t be attractive. Parts of the so-called fourth way resonate for people who already found those things within themselves. Burton definitely has poisoned the 4th way well, but that may end up being a blessing. There’s no need to spend a lifetime struggling for something that we already have, and that we can find everywhere. That’s what all cults have in common, by the way: What you need to find, you can only find HERE. Not out there, not anywhere else. Just here. So the well that Burton has poisoned (only if we let him) is not so much the fourth way, but the vast world of riches outside of the fourth way… the people we can meet, the experiences we can have, the things we can learn, the times we can enjoy. In a sense, thank god the Fellowship of Friends is as bad as it is… Otherwise, maybe some of us (including me) would still be stuck there, thinking we had found “the way” and continuing to live that illusion, feeling separate and superior and disconnected from the rest of the earth.
Good thoughts, good words, good deeds.
– Long, long, long time ago tenets from Avatar Zoroaster.
Not endorsed by the Fellowship of Friends or its subsidaries.
TO ARTHUR, A BOLD SOUL, WITH ALL THE LOVE I CAN MUSTER
from …..”So Long!”, by Walt Whitman…..
“So I pass, a little time vocal, visible, contrary,
Afterward a melodious echo, passionately bent for, (death making
me really undying,)
The best of me then when no longer visible, for toward that I have
been incessantly preparing.
What is there more, that I lag and pause and crouch extended with
unshut mouth?
Is there a single final farewell?
My songs cease, I abandon them,
From behind the screen where I hid I advance personally solely to you.
Camerado, this is no book,
Who touches this touches a man,
(Is it night? are we here together alone?)
It is I you hold and who holds you,
I spring from the pages into your arms–decease calls me forth.”
I dont like talking my understanding of things “esoteric” because more often than not, I dont understand.
Before I met Collin, Nicoll, Ouspenski and those others, I took an English Literature course. We read Shakespeare, Beowulf, Pilgrims Progress and reading of this kind. My only reaction at the time was “wow” and I sat most of the time on the edge of my seat.
A year or two later someone gave me Rodney Collins “A Theory of Celestial Influence”, I couldnt put the book down (on the edge of my seat again) although I didnt understand too much, my reaction again was “wow”.
If it’s all untrue, so be it. I enjoyed the readings.
What was disturbing was the idea that one needed a “group” to advance further. I hadnt read yet Maurice Nicoll’s take on “doing” the Work in life circumstances.
So I was determined to find a “group” and I did. My impression was that this group had everything “organized”, and a whole lot more intelligent than me.
When I was kicked out I was both sad and happy. Happy didnt last long before sadness took over as in, “what have you done”? This lasted for a good while.
Now that this blog is hanging out the dirty laundry, I feel lucky for myself and sad for those soiled.
As far as I’m concerned the so called “work” is everywhere sometimes in bits and sometimes whole.
I went into the “group” because I thought it was necessary. I didnt know any better.
to expand on ….. 59. Agent 45…..
I who have set my heart on watching over the soul, in union with Good Thought, and as knowing the rewards of Mazda Ahura for our works, will, while I have power and strength, teach men to seek after Right. I have become an alien in a foreign land.
Truth is best (of all that is) good. As desired, what is being desired is truth for him who (represents) the best truth.
Now the two primal Spirits, who reveal themselves in vision as Twins, are the Better and the Bad, in thought and word and action. And between these two the wise ones chose aright, the foolish not so.
The teacher of evil destroys the lore, he by his teaching destroys the design of life, he prevents the possession of Good Thought from being prized. These words of my spirit I wail unto you, O Mazda, and to the Right.
Violence must be put down! against cruelty make a stand, ye who would make sure of the reward of Good Thought through Right, to whose company the holy man belongs. His dwelling place shall be in thy House, O Ahura.
I praise good thoughts, good words, and good deeds and those that are to be thought, spoken, and done. I do accept all good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. I do renounce all evil thoughts, evil words, and evil deeds.
62. Forgot to note as from Zoroaster…..Nigel.
61. Arthur
Don’t worry about the group experience. I know you have found Your Self and I know that, when this Self Gives, Sublime Happiness results…..Nigel.
Nigel (64),
Explain something to me. When I use the Fourth Way word “Work”, I dont always mean in reference to Gurdijeff, Ouspenski and Collin.
I also consider Zoroaster as part of the “work”.
Should I throw out the word “work” because it belongs to a specific system and just use the word “esoterica” meaning all things spiritual?
And, thanks for the good words spoken to me. I YouTubed Andrea Bocelli singing “The Prayer” beautiful.
I actually still use body type and center of gravity information but I do not use the system anymore. To me body type is way obvious and I’m a lover of the tarot so it always made sense to me.
The idea that we are living in an intentional universe makes perfect sense that much is not random. The randomness comes from our ability to play with what we’ve been given IMHO, good play, bad play, we decide that I believe and then living with the consequences of that. (karma)
I never liked using the word ‘machine’ to express what we were. It seemed way too degrading for the incredible gift we are given as human beings. A spark of God each of us.
I have not heard whether Burton is treating the suicide of Abraham Goldman in the same way he treated the suicide of Kevin Kelly; that is, not acknowledging his death at the gatehouse notice board (“xx has completed his task”), telling his followers that such action was the worst possible thing that could have happened to him esoterically, that he was damned forever, and so on, pontificating away on yet another a subject he knows nothing about, and not allowing him to be buried in the cemetery behind the orchard. Maybe he will treat the memory and remains of Abraham, a good and faithful servant to him for over thirty years, a little better, who knows.
From my perspective and experience, both were just tools for Burton. Kevin was of limited use, not able to provide physical labor or much money beyond the minimum, and of course, no sex. Abraham was a much more useful tool, not only because he could be milked for a great deal of money, but also because he provided somewhat effective impediments to legal and other troubles. Some of those who overheard the conversations between Burton and Goldman about the Troy Buzbee case, sympathizers who worked in his office, gave me the impression that Burton was the main force behind Goldman’s very aggressive tactics, that any means justified the ends, and that is certainly how Abraham seemed to act. How this affected Goldman’s psyche would be more speculation on my part, but I can’t see how he could fail to be corrupted and twisted when his chief advisor, minister, mentor and supposed teacher is corrupted through and through.
My guess is that for Burton the next question is, how to quickly replace the tool which failed. An obvious choice is David Springfield, a member since 1982. In his time he was trained and mentored by Goldman as a lawyer and more directly by Burton himself, and was privy to the inmost secrets and machinations legal and otherwise for many years. Springfield (formerly Lubbers) used to work with Goldman, but apparently split off to start his own practice, (The Springfield Law Firm, Oregon House). Will Burton recall him to replace Abraham as useful tool, and if so will David respond? I recall David, during the period when he was one of Burton’s ‘boys’, as being thoroughly indoctrinated, arrogant, fully aware of and taking advantage of his importance and privilege and closeness to Burton. His abusive relationship with Anna when she was his wife has been documented in her own words on this blog, as well as his magical thinking about his and Burton’s invulnerability to sexually transmitted disease. During the time I knew him, he appeared to have no operating conscience, handing over that function, as Abraham did, to Burton. A very useful tool. Has he changed? I don’t know, but the prognosis is not good. Growing older and becoming less attractive to Burton (he must be about 48 now), and the subsequent increasing distance from Burton may have allowed room for changes to occur. I hope for David Springfield’s sake that if my speculation is correct, he is somehow able to learn from Goldman’s fate, and apply his considerable intelligence to finding a way to resist coming closer to the source of corruption. We do know he had enough sense to distance himself from the actions of the board (see ‘David Springfield letter’). Of course, best of all for his own sake would be to leave the organization right now while the going is good.
In reference to Renald (#107-56 or thereabouts), Burton uses the supposed tool of ‘intentional insincerity’ to solicit funds quite frequently. One example among many is the raising of funds for the replacement of the “Bistro” restaurant building on the property, which burned down. Much money raised, but no building; however, lots of new suits and toys for his favorites.
Perhaps some readers remember the case of Roger Greene, a decent, sincere but naïve follower in London. Roger had visited Renaissance as it was then called, and seeing the awful living conditions for visitors at the time, conceived of the idea of building a lodge for them. Later, as he lay dying, he worked with his son to liquidate all his possessions and investments, and accumulated $250,000 or so in cash to realize the project, as a gift to his fellow ‘students’. Burton arranged for the transfer this money to this country via courier and it arrived in due course as a bundle of cash.
Burton immediately went on a wild spending spree. New clothes, new cars from the Toyota dealership in Yuba City, new gee jaws of every kind. I was told the money was gone in three weeks.
I wonder if this particular news ever got back to Roger’s son (not a follower, as far as I know), who agreed to give up his inheritance to please his dying father.
I have to confess, I have my suspicions that neither Burton or the Fellowship of Friends accountants remembered to tell the IRS about this or other bequests––or about any other ‘teaching payments’ that may have, and may still continue to arrive from foreign centers in the form of cash.
Maybe we shouldn`t be so hard on the poor guy. After all the gods have created a lot of suffering for him. Rumor has it that he no longer can just jump on a plane with his entourage and head to Russia to attend the ballets like he was used to. That must be like a slap in the face for him. What`s he to do with all the air miles?
Cheers!
Ames got it right about David S. except I’m not sure how intelligent he actually is. He earned his law degree online, after all. Not exactly Boalt Hall. He did make a very good butler for Burton as I recall.
“You have just learned the two most important things in life—
Never rat on your friends and keep your mouth shut.”
—Jimmy “The Gent” Conway (Robert De Niro) in Goodfellas
Robert Burton pushes ‘highmindedness’ in public but the evidence suggests he is a cad in private.
He must be covering his bases legally because all the information flowing to the IRS, FBI and others has come to naught.
So it seems the only redress of grievances is to wait it out and task Asaf after the funeral.
Or, continue knocking at his door, bibically, and at the door at the next proprietor.
67 and 68. Ames – Thanks for both posts. Re: 68, I knew Roger G, back in London in the mid-late 1980s. Lovely man, sincere, wanted to be helpful, socialized with me even when I was edging out of the FF, rather than ostracizing me. Roger had a large home in Hampstead; Hampstead was an expensive neighborhood in London. He was interested in alternative medicine, and allowed practitioners to use his rooms (for rent or not, I don’t know and didn’t care.) In fact, I think that’s where Max S., an ex-FFr in the London center, taught a few classes in the Gurdjieff Movements. Of course, those classes were banned, soon thereafter. Not quite Fellowshippy enough.
I had heard vague rumors of the FF wanting to get access to his wealth, when it was discovered that he was terminally ill. I’m very sorry to read that it happened, because what was probably more deserving was if it had gone towards some alternative medicine institutions. The fact that it was spent wildly like someone who’d won the lottery would have done, is really upsetting to read.
#71- “Robert Burton pushes ‘highmindedness’ in public but the evidence suggests he is a cad in private.”
I remember a friend of mine telling me how she hosted a dinner at her home on the east coast about 5 years ago for Burton and entourage (it was part of a New York Center “hosting octave”). She said during dinner everything was quite “normal”, but right after dinner as Burton was about to leave (he was in the hallway and didn’t realize he was being observed by my friend) he went into a frenzied tirade about having to get to a jeweler before they closed so he could pick up a watch (or whatever) he had purchased. He insisted one of his entourage call the shop and tell them to stay open for him and then he looked around his group and tried to decide which one was the fastest driver. It was so out of character that my friend had a hard time digesting what she had just witnessed.
In response to Ames’ comments, the rumor has it that indeed, Burton is toasting and eulogizing Mr. Abrahm as a courageous man, who shortened his life in the face of intolerable physical adversity, in very much the same way as Roger C. did forego futile treatment for his terminal cancer, or John G. for his chronic degenerative condition.
If true, I find the hypocrisy to be nauseating. Abraham’s act was an act of despair, as was Kevin’s. Compassion would be the response, not toasting or abject ostracism as was the case for Kevin. To think that kevin’s wife is still in the FOF, perhaps toasting to Abe’s memory, oh! the humanity!. BTW, as far as I know, now matter how debilitating Abe’s condition might have been, it was not life threatening.
#73
It was so out of character…
It was not out of character, witnessing it was rare for most of us.
I remember Keven as a new student and something about his being asked to purchase a ‘teaching house’…
Shirley (#107-72 or thereabouts),
$250,000 is a tiny part of what Burton has won. He has conned his followers out of the equivalent of the biggest mega-lottery prizes in history, paid out over 40 years. My relatively uninformed guesstimate of the total money that has passed through Fellowship of Friends (in practical terms, indistinguishable from Robert Burton due to malfeasance of the Board) is something between $146-$200 million. Someone in the Ouspensky Office let me have a brief look at what I remember to be some RPG summary financial reports from the IBM 36 the year I left, which is the basis for my guesses. Burton claimed that ‘C-influence’ tasked him with building a city, sufficient and self-sufficient enough to be the basis of a whole new civilization, which I would take to mean at least some fairly large, well-built, durable buildings filled with libraries of organized knowledge, some decent irrigation projects to allow agriculture, and whatever. Instead, there remains of all this money a bunch of “stuff” in a stick-built faux chateau with some incredibly high-maintenance landscaping around it and supporting infrastructure worth maybe $10 million, plus the jerry-built Lodge, and the Town Hall and workshops. There must be some readers out there who can tell us if this is even in the ballpark?
49. Arthur
You said, “When I was in the hospital in January I asked for a ‘spiritual’ counselor because wrapped around my sickness was a desire to quit. What I got for my asking was a psycho-ward attendant for two nights.”
Thanks for sharing more of your story in #49 above. When my father was in home hospice care, several of the Visiting Nurse Service workers asked him if he was religious or spiritual, and did he want any VNS “spiritual” counselors to visit him. To each person he replied, “No” (although he surprised the heck out of me by adding, “I’m not religious, but I am a Confucianist,” and of course, they didn’t know how to digest that response. But whadyaknow, VNS sent a “social worker” anyway, who kept pushing her spiritual agenda on him in an obnoxious and overbearing way. He told her to stop visiting. She kept returning. I finally yelled at her from my office phone and told her to leave my dad in peace. The irony is, is that he had many long and deep talks about spiritual and emotional matters with the 2 people who helped him during the day. His home attendant was a very spiritually oriented person from a troubled family, and he found my father’s probing talks to help him immensely. The other person was my best friend, and they would talk at length about cultural and philosophical matters. My feeling was that a person doesn’t have to declare himself to be “spiritual or religious” to have a developed inner life.
Isn’t it against the law for a tax-exempt “whatever they claim” to go on a spree with dedicated money? Was the dedication written down?
His lawyers sure know how to dance in dark alleys.
55. Nick
“As the bodily functions begin to deteriorate, it brings out the true quality of the relationship between the people involved, carer and dependent.”
I agree. My experience of watching how my father dealt with his diminishing chances of surviving metastasized cancer was incredibly valuable. You witness how a person deals with the important things in life, because they begin to see, clearly, that this is the end game. I saw how he reviewed in his mind the people in his life (he’d talk about that with me), and how they were or were not “there” for him; how he dealt with the many practical things that had to be done after he died; the importance of closure and saying good-bye to friends and relatives; and trying to accept the end. It was like the ultimate learning by example.
…..and the camel shit gets deeper and deeper, the water gets more and more contaminated, the cancer spreads, and those who deserve better realize it and escape before it`s too late, and the others…………………………………………………………¿?¿?
………………………………………¿?¿?…How does it go again?
Oh right, they need injustice for their evolution.
Cheers!
Shirley (78),
I have lung disease. After my first hospitalization about six years ago my doctor said, “whatever you do, don’t catch a cold”.
January it was pneumonia, failing kidneys and a blood infection. They gave me morphine and all that did was bring tiny alien figures zipping across the room. I told the nurse and she put an allergy band around my wrist and took me off morphine.
Afterwords I asked for a spiritual counselor for “prayer”. They sent first a Presbyterian minister. I asked him to pray for my death. He didnt cooperate with that request. The next morning they sent a Catholic priest. Same request, same refusal.
That’s when the nurse informed me about her concerns about me, and sometime that day a psycho-tech came and spent two days with me. I told her the human mind can only take so much suffering before it wants to quit. She understood.
Your father’s experience reminds me of something similar. I used to also work with an elderly man confined to a wheelchair. He had two sets of home health care givers. One for his wife who had bone cancer.
Part of my job was taking him outside for some sun. One day some Jevoha Witnesses walked up and before the conversation got good and started I announced that he and I were ‘heathens’.
Actually he donated money to his Catholic Church. I know because I wrote out the checks.
And, one of his nurses was of the pushy kind but not at him–me.
I was told that in the early 2000s, the American Express bill was consistently around $40,000 per month, probably comprised of travel expense, clothes, restaurants, etc… for the pastor and his intimate flock, all while away from Oregon House.
RE: Wouldn’t You Like to Know, #45:
Regarding you statement: “Spiritually, perhaps it was Christ that said, again, paraphrased: That thinking an action is all the same as doing the action itself, possibly worse.”
Now that is a scary and disconcerting thought! I would like to know who you know who is in control of their thoughts- are you?
According to Mathew, Christ did say: “By their fruits ye shall know them”. Not that I can know if Christ was a higher being, but I agree with Whale Rider, that we are responsible for our conduct and deeds (and that is only if we are sane), not every thought or impulse that courses through our mind. We can choose to feed destructive or negative thoughts or to move our attention away from these thoughts into more positive territory, but that is a very different matter than saying ‘thinking and action is the same as doing the action’. Thoughts are arising in our minds almost continuously and there is nothing we can do about it so long as we are alive, IMO.
83. Arthur, I hope you meant for your story about the spiritual counselors / Jehovah’s Witnesses to be funny, because I found myself laughing. But seriously, I wonder if mainstream America finds it uncomfortable and “wrong” when individuals have no clear religious or spiritual affiliation. I find it ironic that America was founded – well, sort of founded – by people who were seeking freedom to practice their religion, only to persecute others who had a different variation of belief. But that seems par for the course, doesn’t it: Those who believe ardently in something might be the very ones who are convinced that everyone else is wrong. I remember being in Lutheran school for a few years, and innocently reporting on Monday morning during attendance that I had gone to Catholic mass the day before with my Puerto Rican friend, and why did they pray to Mary and have candles. Boy, did I get a verbal thrashing. It made me question what Christianity meant.
I’m sorry to hear that you have lung disease. Breathing is important; so are a lot of things, but we need to breathe to live. My father also had a blood infection at one point. We didn’t know what was happening, but he was shaking like crazy and his temperature shot up within half an hour to above 100. The usual: ambulance to the E.R., ICU, prepare myself for him to die in ICU, then a miraculous recovery. You knew he was better when the next morning, his main concern was to have a bowel movement in privacy on a commode rather than in a bed pan. Sorry if these stories are grossing anyone out, but there’s a kind of ghoulish humor to the extreme stress of caring for people with serious diseases.
Arthur, when you asked for the Presbyterian minister to pray for your death, did you feel you had had a turn of mind regarding living? And how do you feel now? I ask because I remember the day that my father decided he wanted to die, rather than live. It was a definite about-face, and a decision to let go.
…”not sure how intelligent he actually is….”[DS]
Now there is a statement I can wholeheartedly agree with! Right on Guy! Not so sure myself…LOL
DS
87. PSDS
Yep. Looks like you’re the only sucker here. None of the rest of us joined a cult…
IMEHO:
Ames (somewhere and thereabouts)
Thanks for your entries.
35. Sockpuppet
“…John of the Cross’s “Dark Night of the Soul” is not a pit stop in spiritual decline… It’s a way station on the path of holiness. It’s a specific point in a spiritual journey. The FOF doesn’t even come close to this stuff.”
The path of holiness? A specific point? The FoF is a joke in the absurdity of the bigger joke: the ‘spiritual journey’.
64. nigel
“I know you have found Your Self and I know that, when this Self Gives, Sublime Happiness results…..Nigel.”
What is this “Self”? How and where do you find it? You seem to know it… For real? Which “Self” says that? How does a “Self” knows when the another “Self” Gives? Sublime happiness lasts as long as the masturbation, and then… puff!
65. Arthur
I also consider Zoroaster as part of the “work”.
Since we are talking about Christ and Zoroaster… How about Superman? Or Mickey Mouse… he has four fingers after all!
66. sallymcnally
“I actually still use body type and center of gravity information but I do not use the system anymore. To me body type is way obvious and I’m a lover of the tarot so it always made sense to me.“
The body type and center of gravity idea is another way to label people and to persuade yourself that you have special access to a better/higher knowledge. Apart from being limited and useless, the above mentioned ideas just box people in a labeled compartment that they cannot escape. These ideas are, excuse the “f” word, formatory.
And, yes! Thinking of what awaits RB, even though he too is a spark from God, I hope Karma is a real bitch.
89. Mr Burp
re: 64 nigel
You seem one of those crass, not-right-with-your-life people and feeling that destructive posts on the blog will serve The Better Purpose…..
i.e. your posts are not coming from Your Self.
Have you ever, since an early stage in your adulthood, found an art, science or academic discipline that you profoundly enjoyed and did you pursue it?????
Or did you give up on that by joining the FOF and becoming a computer programmer (fashionable and money-making), corporate head-hunter (even more money) or a psychiatric professional (money and minds to plunder)?????
THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!
’85. Nancy Gilbert – August 8, 2011
RE: Wouldn’t You Like to Know, #45:
Regarding you statement: “Spiritually, perhaps it was Christ that said, again, paraphrased: That thinking an action is all the same as doing the action itself, possibly worse.”
Now that is a scary and disconcerting thought! I would like to know who you know who is in control of their thoughts- are you?’
All kidding aside, Nancy, I am not in control of my thoughts, you are!
Not so far fetched, though. You have caused me to entertain thinking more and more deeply on the subject. Which I find useful. So, here goes:
Yes, I am, to some degree, able to control my thoughts and feelings.
But to be specific about the spiritual/Christ subject paraphrased:
‘Matthew 5 (KJV)
1: And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. . .
14: Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15: Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. . .
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. . .
22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca [an abusive epithet], shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. . .
27: Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.’
[29: In FoF speak: An eye for an eye means: an ‘I’ for an ‘I’: to stop the ‘I’s’ that do not promote your aim to awaken (or whatever) and replace them with those that do promote your aim. ‘For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. Proverbs 23:7.]
Wouldn’t You Like to Know 45:
“Spiritually, perhaps it was Christ that said, again, paraphrased: That thinking an action is all the same as doing the action itself, possibly worse.”
10 ¶ And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 these are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
[Matthew 10-20].
re 90 – Nigel,,,,,,,mirror mirror on the wall……..
Cheers!
re 91 – Wouldn`t You Like To Know:
Here is a take that I can certainly identify with which was found on yahoo answers:
Question in yahoo answers: “ Forget for a moment that there was a god, or any concept of a god in any shape or form. What then? “
I am an evolving thought entity created by other evolving thought entities.
I am more than my predecessors. Thought does not have to be conscious or aware thought but can be instinctual, emotional, moving or intellectual nevertheless. How it happened that the first human began to have thoughts, I don`t know. Anyone can make up a more or less believable story but a story is just a story, some funnier than others, some sadder, depending on who made them up.
Whether or not I believe the story does not matter except that it will have an effect on whatever it is that I create with my thoughts, how the evolution will tend to go, what direction it will take. For some it will be tragedy. for others comedy, yet as W. Shakespeare said in the end it is all like a play. My parents, my teachers, the media, all have an influence on what I become. I have no individual mission. I can choose to multiply (breed others) or not. It does not matter one way or the other. My antecedents or ancestors even called it generations. They generated. One cannot help but generate thoughts. Not only that but everything which exists generates thoughts because that is what energy does, it evolves, it spreads outward into nothingness which is not really nothingness since thought has already gone there and continues to create the out there which we call infinity. Some say the out there does not exist but as long as one person has thought that it exists then it must exist because of the energy required to think it. It is a matter of scale as to what it is that we spend energy doing. What is near matters more to the individual and what is more remote matters less. For example how we feed ourselves matters more than whether or not there are other galaxies with other human-like creatures who create in the same way as we do. That is common sense and scale, whatever you choose to call it. All is very well indeed.
Yes that answer is simplistic but to the point. Brevity is sometimes required. Looking at the words the author chose one could think he/she had been in the fof or at least read Ouspenskii. lol
Cheers!
67. Ames Gilbert
74. Opus111
et al
This is an excerpt of the email that went out to all Fellowship members:
“A_m G_n, a beloved member of the Fellowship of Friends, completed his task by his own hand, shortly before midnight on Sunday, July 31, 2011. A_m was sixty-one years old. (…) A_m was consistently a strong supporter of the Fellowship, a loyal friend, and loving husband and father. As an attorney, he provided important legal advice not only to the Fellowship, but to many students as well. Experiencing severe hearing loss, A_m was a master at silently containing his instinctive suffering as he played out his role. On behalf of all who knew you, we thank thee.”
68
Ames.. this story about burning the generous inheretens on toys is disgusting. I mean it make me sick in my guts..
By the way, to those who doesn’t know, there was close to $200,000 raised for rebuilding the Bistro.
The money disappeared, Bistro remained in ruins.
This is what I know, now what I don’t know, is whether they claim their insurance or not, and if they did, that it has to be reported to the insurance company immediately. If they defrauded insurance company on that much, their asses will get burn by them like bistro.
Besides, the $200,000 was never reported to IRS also.
74. Opus111 – August 7, 2011
Yes, of course it was an act of despair. But this is the only thing burton can tell to cover it up and by doing so, he actually promotes more suicides to come.
73
This is a true face of burton. All he really thinks about is money, sex and toys.
re 92 – Nick Bishop . Both are a list of thoughts that someone had and gave energy to which spread out and partly shaped the Being of other humans out there on the planet (and beyond). I am free to attract, consider, evaluate, amend or not amend, accept or reject partly or totally, whatever ` I ` decide in any given moment. This generates a thought. How much fuel that thought has depends upon how much energy, usually and mostly emotional), I give it and how often I do so. If someone is prediposed to such a block of thoughts and becomes aware (conscious) of having attracted it, we say that he/she was inspired or psychic even. If the energy causes a resonation which many pick up on, the thoughts become popular.
When the author becomes popular he/she is in a great position to accept followers, maybe even start thinking he/she is special and maybe should start a damned cult. How that Being progresses depends on the sum total of all the other thoughts which form a part of his/her collection which in turn expresses itself as desires or wants which of course also are thoughts and so blah, blah, blah into eternity. It might even express those energy laden thoughts out into cyberspace in order to enable more humans to access them and thereby create a universe which he thinks will please him more. Another may not agree, due to programing, and put forth some incongruous thoughts which can resonate with another group of humans more predisposed to those thoughts and a sort of earthly balance is produced, or not. That is the start of another story, so, cheers!
95. “… Experiencing severe hearing loss, A_m was a master at silently containing his instinctive suffering as he played out his role. On behalf of all who knew you, we thank thee.”
Let’s get this straight… He reportedly hung himself, which is a particularly violent form of death — and violent in the effect it would have on someone discovering him. One can only imagine the horror of his family as they entered the room to find him there. As someone pointed out, he had no life-threatening disease.
Using any amount of imagination, taking his own life by hanging cannot be categorized as “silently containing his instinctive suffering.”
Burton and the FOF constantly attempt to capsulize things — to explain them in neat little packets so that everyone can stop thinking about them.
Ollie, the (…) in the middle of your passage is interesting. Why leave it out?
100. For the record
There was simply more info as to where he joined and what centers he belonged to before moving to Oregon House. Nothing that would have added anything to this discussion.
“ As an attorney, he provided important legal advice not only to the Fellowship, but to many students as well.“
So the students are not considered part of the Fellatioship according to Burton.
Cheers!
Oops! Sorry. Typing error. Fellatioship should read Fellowship.
Cheers!
89. Mr. Burp – August 8, 2011
66. sallymcnally
“I actually still use body type and center of gravity information but I do not use the system anymore. To me body type is way obvious and I’m a lover of the tarot so it always made sense to me.“
‘The body type and center of gravity idea is another way to label people and to persuade yourself that you have special access to a better/higher knowledge. Apart from being limited and useless, the above mentioned ideas just box people in a labeled compartment that they cannot escape. These ideas are, excuse the “f” word, formatory.’
—————————–
Of course ideas CAN be (mis)used to ‘label people and persuade yourself that you have special access to a better/higher knowledge,’ but is the possibility that they may be misused alone a reason to reject them?
This is the ‘reasoning’ behind outlawing all ownership of firearms.
I would rather say that trying to observe the body type and center of gravity ideas may help us see we are prisoners of our mechanics (and that what is ‘limited and useless’ for one person may be very useful for another).
What IS it with those red-headed, freckle-faced warriors, anyway?
Actually I use the body type and center of gravity to understand people better. It helps me be more compassionate with myself and others. You guys sure like to postulate a lot.
re. 104 – We were there – The study of genetics and DNA is gradually getting there. It should not be too long now unless the discoveries are kept for the rich and powerful before we get scientific confirmation regarding just how powerful our thoughts and how we manage them really are.
Cheers
105. sallymcnally – August 8, 2011
Actually I use the body type and center of gravity to understand people better. It helps me be more compassionate with myself and others.
————————————–
Perfectly said, Sally.
105. sallymcnally
Postulate is better than postunever…
Hey Tim, touche!
95. Ollie
What manner of creature could write this? “Experiencing severe hearing loss, Abraham was a master at silently containing his instinctive suffering as he played out his role.”
Such a neat, tidy and comforting explanation of what the victim was experiencing. This palliative speaks volumes of the author’s lack of understanding, compassion and humanity.
This moronic eulogy is intended to offer solace to his family and friends? Hardly. “In right order,” it is to keep the drones asleep.
Shirley (86),
I looked up the word ‘religion’ one time and found that is made from two Latin words. (re-back) and (ligion-to tie) Religion is to tie back to God.
Ligature could also be used to mean tie around the neck or constrict lung function. Either way could result in the cessation of bodily functions.
My request for a spiritual counsleor came from the desire to reach “relief”. The hospitalization didnt seem to be effective. Everything was asked for calmly. And, finally afterwards, the doctor came in and said, “we didnt realize how sick you were when you first came to the hospital, what you have can be treated and is being treated, you have to have patience”. Then he turned to the nurse and said, “he’s just scared”. I wasnt scared, just sick and tired. Committing suicide that would be scary.
The spiritual counselor was sent in by the hospital. I think they have a “pastorial counsling” office. I didnt ask for any specific “denomination”. It doesnt matter to me as long as they dont “pray in the spirit–in tongues” or ask me where I’m going when I die, or if I’ve been saved.
From an accumulation of hospitalizations things do change in outlook. Not smarty-pants anymore, more considerate toward everybody or live and let live, more resigned.
I think Rodney Collin said that we die by fourths. The Instinctive is the last. My old neighbor died by fourths. He started losing interests and in the end wanted to speed up the process.
Elena wrote much about taking care of an elderly woman (Dorothy) because everybody was too busy doing “Bob’s Work”. Dorothy must have been low in the “Friends” hierarchy. Friends? Seems like a curse.
Hang in there with taking care of your Mom. According to some “esoteric systems” your loss will be your gain.
Also, postulate is better than posthumous. Or, is that postumust? Never was good at spelling.
Posthummus?
Arthur 111.
“From an accumulation of hospitalizations things do change in outlook. Not smarty-pants anymore, more considerate toward everybody or live and let live, more resigned.
I think Rodney Collin said that we die by fourths. The Instinctive is the last. My old neighbor died by fourths. He started losing interests and in the end wanted to speed up the process.”
That agrees with my own sense of my mother during the last few months. There was more generosity and she was grateful for every small act. She somehow reverted to being more simply herself, without complications. It was very pure. I can honestly say that there was nothing negative about her spiraling down towards Instinctive life towards the end, and there was no lack of feeling accompanying it.
It helped me realize that the Fellowship model of a human being – with the Instinctive Centre set up as chief devil – is entirely wrong.
Posthummus?
Garbanzo! You’ve got it.
from…..”Song of Prudence”, by Walt Whitman…..
“The soul is of itself,
All verges to it, all has reference to what ensues,
All that a person does, says, thinks, is of consequence,
Not a move can a man or woman make, that affects him or her in a day, month, any part of the direct lifetime, or the hour of death,
But the same affects him or her onward afterward through the
indirect lifetime.”
from…..”Song of Prudence”, by Walt Whitman…..
“Knows that the young man who composedly peril’d his life and lost it
has done exceedingly well for himself without doubt,
That he who never peril’d his life, but retains it to old age in
riches and ease, has probably achiev’d nothing for himself worth
mentioning,
Knows that only that person has really learn’d who has learn’d to
prefer results,
Who favors body and soul the same,
Who perceives the indirect assuredly following the direct,
Who in his spirit in any emergency whatever neither hurries nor
avoids death.”
104. Are We Still There?
The only purpose of those ideas is to pretend to know another person for what he /she supposedly really is at glance. It gives you a certain power to assume how people are, and that makes you a prisoner of those mechanics: that alone is a reason to reject them.
“This is the ‘reasoning’ behind outlawing all ownership of firearms.”
You are right: body types don’t arbitrate people; people who use them do.
105. Sallyperfectlysaidmcnally
I really don’t see how you can assume to hypothetically understand someone better by guessing who they are, by pretending to see them through the lenses/postulate of a predetermined taken-for-granted idea. “Of course she reacted that way, she is a saturn with fear and she has tramp in the emotional center…” Those prejudices don’t say anything at all on how a person is, but make us feel better, more empowered, more ‘knowing’, while they are just misleading our judgment. It is like giving the blind a cucumber telling him that it’s an ancient flashlight.
You said: “I never liked using the word ‘machine’ to express what we were.”
Liking to label and categorize people with body types and center of gravity is not that much far off… But if it helps you be more compassionate, you can believe that too!
Mr Burp, hmm, a bit of projection going on there on how I use information I would say — however I did just buy some hummus and took those hummus comments as a shock.
77. Ames – I was thinking more about the ripping off of Roger Greene (it still angers me to think about it), and remembered that I had had lunch a few years ago with a current, longtime FF member. She & I were very close during my London years, and my drift out of the FF had upset her. (Our lunch a few years ago was a result of her contacting me through someone on the GF site, during one of her short trips to NY.) I don’t remember much of our lunch conversation, except that I stupidly wasted my time trying to explain how I had managed just fine, post-FF. It is a testament to the residual power of the FF that I still felt a need to “explain” myself, when face to face with a die-hard FFrs. I guess I wasn’t convincing enough, because she’s still in the FF. We didn’t talk about anything in a truly honest way, because as each of us on this blog can understand, many FF members are extremely guarded. It is as though they are shielding a life filled with shame and conflict. (To the FF member, they think they are guarding a precious jewel from polluting “life” people.)
Anyway, by coincidence, someone told me very recently that this same friend had been extremely upset by the Roger Greene rip-off during the time when it happened; and yet, her extreme distress did not compel her to leave the FF. Knowing her as well as I did, and her penchant for “suffering in silence” and even thinking it was a good thing, I wonder if many FF students do themselves a terrible disservice by turning their distress inwardly and use it as “food to work on oneself”, rather than openly express their anger and discuss what’s bothering them about RB and the FF.
They suffer and grieve over Robert’s extreme wrong-doings, and bear their suffering as a “good” thing, a “test of their being” and “ability to separate.” That is really twisted, and yet, it was encouraged in the FF. It’s as though one has lost all ability to defend oneself, and been trained like a seal to blame oneself for not being awake enough to understand C Influence’s will.
114. Nick
“That agrees with my own sense of my mother during the last few months. There was more generosity and she was grateful for every small act. She somehow reverted to being more simply herself, without complications. It was very pure. I can honestly say that there was nothing negative about her spiraling down towards Instinctive life towards the end, and there was no lack of feeling accompanying it.”
I was glad to read that. I experienced something like that with my father, too, during his final years, and especially in his last half year. He became more and more open and appreciative of other people’s kindness; he’d remark on small things that one would ordinarily overlook, as though life were a revelation. In retrospect, maybe his knowing that he was closing in on the end heightened his emotional connection to life. My friends and neighbors commented on how “special” he seemed to be during this period. Whenever he was hospitalized, which was becoming quite often, he’d ask each nurse and assistant what their name was, and ask them about their life story and future plans. I saw it as a lesson in unselfishness and a love that grew, in spite of or along side of, his increasing vulnerability.
…scripta manent.
120
We were trained to be slaves and slaves are defenseless.
Mr Burp — Ellinguis sum
122, 124 Burp and Sally – C’mon, you’re making us go to Google-translate-Latin.
111. Arthur
“From an accumulation of hospitalizations things do change in outlook. Not smarty-pants anymore, more considerate toward everybody or live and let live, more resigned.”
Yes, not just because you’re a vulnerable patient in a hospital setting (strapped to IV drips, anesthesia with its negative effects & risks, having to ask nurses & aides for every little thing), but because you realize, very starkly, that your body is mysteriously not cooperating with you anymore.
‘120. Shirley – August 9, 2011
Anyway, by coincidence, someone told me very recently that this same friend had been extremely upset by the Roger Greene rip-off during the time when it happened; and yet, her extreme distress did not compel her to leave the FF. Knowing her as well as I did, and her penchant for “suffering in silence” and even thinking it was a good thing, I wonder if many FF students do themselves a terrible disservice by turning their distress inwardly and use it as “food to work on oneself”, rather than openly express their anger and discuss what’s bothering them about RB and the FF.
They suffer and grieve over Robert’s extreme wrong-doings, and bear their suffering as a “good” thing, a “test of their being” and “ability to separate.” That is really twisted, and yet, it was encouraged in the FF. It’s as though one has lost all ability to defend oneself, and been trained like a seal to blame oneself for not being awake enough to understand C Influence’s will.’
What you describe is best defined as hazing as an initiation into the cult ritual and, later, the hidden, or not-so-hidden, price of continued membership. Read Wikipedia:
‘Hazing is a term used to describe various ritual and other activities involving harassment, abuse or humiliation used as a way of initiating a person into a group.
Hazing is seen in many different types of groups, including in gangs, clubs, sports teams, military units, and workplaces. In the United States and Canada, hazing is often associated with Greek-letter organizations (fraternities and sororities). Hazing is often prohibited by law and may be either physical (possibly violent) or mental (possibly degrading) practices. It may also include nudity or sexually oriented activities.’
More at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing
From the FoF point of view, all must participate in the criminal activity to earn respect and ‘rite of passage.’ And, if one does not actually perform criminal action, but knowingly is silent, then one becomes complicit; which is also criminal.
At a minimum, one’s principles and conscience, among other things, are compromised. The longer you are in, the more deeply you pay, until there is no way out, because the psychological cost of cognitive dissonance becomes too great. You become damned if you do and damned if you don’t maintain your membership. It is enough to drive one to suicide.
Additionally, the suppression of the negative emotions that come from this, are rather detrimental to a person’s health. Transformation of negative emotions, which would dispel this cognitive dissonance, is spoken about in FoF, but who really is capable of doing it, is another story.
Read also: Rite of passage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_passage
Not all rites of passage have positive purposes.
Re: Post 127 – Just the Facts Ma’am
“The longer you are in, the more deeply you pay, until there is no way out, because the psychological cost of cognitive dissonance becomes too great.”
I think it is, in part, cognitive dissonance which makes one susceptible to cults in the first place. Then, “rites of passage” and other forms of indoctrination, gradually — like a mental sedative — dull the intensity of this dissonance. Its eventual re-emergence can, however, restore clarity and show a way forward.
My premise being that cognitive dissonance — perceiving oneself to be out of harmony or at variance — is the natural and therefore “healthy” state of the dualistic mind. Because this state is so unpleasant, we continually seek relief in the mental world of opinions and beliefs. “The system” provides the ultimate sedative: so-called objective knowledge.
Perhaps the psychological cost you mention actually becomes too great if this eventual re-emergence of normal cognitive dissonance in a cult member is thwarted in its positive expression through action (e.g. leaving the cult) by health or financial problems, or by simple inertia? Surely, dark thoughts would follow.
Perhaps cognitive dissonance somehow fuels our desire to become, and as such must be fully embraced?
“It is only your mind that prevents self-knowledge.” Nisargadatta
129/My2Bits
The cognitive-dissonance three-step in the cult-recruitment process:
The person is induced by the cult to do something dissonant with his self-concept, usually justified in ideological terms. (“Doing what the machine does not wish to do.” “One must sacrifice one’s imaginary picture of oneself.”)
The person experiences cognitive dissonance. “I am not the kind of person who does this thing. But I did this thing.”
The person’s self-concept changes to reduce the dissonance. “I guess I am the kind of person who does this thing. After all, I did it. And I am like my mates in the school who did the same thing.”
Repeat until indoctrination is complete.
There is an old saying – Nothing is certain except death & taxes.
It is interesting that this is legally true – Tax liabilities don’t go away, ever. (There is no statute of limitations on murder or taxes. Who writes these laws anyway?) And suicide is illegal, although it is difficult to prosecute successful offenders.
Paradoxically, those who have direct knowledge of the Fellowship of Friends Financial Fraud are legally inhibited from voluntarily revealing this information to the authorities.
I think it has something to do with fiduciary responsibilites & self incrimination.
122. Mr. Burp
Vescere bracis meis
Did you mean Osculum mihi asinum?
Your ignorance is forgiven.
See what happens when someone pushes against? In this case latin.
Cheers!
tetri fatuus
Ollie (#107-95 or thereabouts),
thanks for providing solid information once again. I appreciate that.
So now the followers have to deal with the cognitive dissonance arising from the different treatment of the same actions by various members of the Fellowship of Friends. On the one hand, Kevin Kelly, who faced the huge challenges provided by his paralyzed body for nearly forty years, and on the other hand, those like Abraham Goldman. Some of you probably helped Kevin in your time, as I did (I was once a nurse). You will know that his lower bowels were also paralyzed, and that he had to endure the fact that not only could he not eliminate, but that someone had to reach in and physically extract his feces, every day. That is dependent, that is helpless, that is humiliating if anything is. Every aspect of his health was in the hands of others, from routine cleanliness to medicines, and he often had a hard time finding help. He spent his insurance settlement money generously on behalf of the Fellowship (as Silentpurr mentioned above, Burton directed where this money was to go), which meant that later his finances were often precarious.
Some of you will remember his incredible skill with his wheelchair, controlled by the slight movement remaining in two fingers, skill that allowed him to dance, in his wheelchair, with partners at the formal balls. Remembering that kind of courage literally still brings tears to my eyes, now, as I write. He was able to support himself and hold down a job, and this, to my understanding, ended, as did the accompanying health benefits, when Burton ordered members to move to Oregon House to await the predicted Fall of California in 1996. I won’t speculate on why Kevin ended his life, but it is plain that he devoted his time from when he joined in 1976 to his death trying to make the best of his circumstances, faithfully following the advice of someone he thought to be his teacher, surrounded by people he thought to be his friends, ‘separating from his instinctive friction’ a lot more frequently than most. Even if I think Kevin was misguided in his devotion, that is a heroic life.
But, according to Burton, his soul was doomed. According to Burton, by ending his life, he was an object lesson in wrong work. An impartial outsider observing this would have to conclude that the ‘brightest light in 2000 years’ was unable to see where Kevin had gone wrong over thirty years of a teacher–student relationship, and guide him to the correct path, and moreover, that the other ‘students’ that Burton ‘taught’ were also unable to see this or help. Some ‘teacher’! Some ‘students’! Some ‘buffers’! Some cognitive dissonance (aka ‘more friction to separate from’)!
I think it was Socartes who said (paraphased), “let everybody throw their troubles in a pile, and when asked to reach in a grab something, they will refuse and be satisifed with their own troubles”
Brian Kelly!
Sorry, Kevin Kelly
Oops, #107-136 above was by Ames Gilbert, not Nancy Gilbert. The comment box automatically fills in the last name used. Sorry for any confusion.
Mentula!!
“…scripta manent” only wanted to point out that there was no projection, but only the contradicting words of sallyplaydumbmcnally.
A cross between “Fatetur facinus, quisquis iudicium fugit.” (He/she who flees the trial admits his/her guilt) and “Varium et mutabile semper foemina” (Women are constantly changeable by nature).
btw… what a great literate audience!
Shirley (72),
I mention this because you seem favorable to “alternative medicines”.
I have no experience with alternative medicine but find the following interesting.
Google–“run from the cure”, Rick Simpson or “Phoenix Tears”.
Rick Simpson is an elderly man from Canada on the run from the law, hiding out in Europe.
In “Phoenix Tears” he cautions people about frauds using his name and also about the quality of this medicine on the market. His advice is to make your own.
I’ve read stories of people or family members in desparation searching for medical help. These websites are basically the same and recommended for a medical search. Keeping in mind it is “alternative’.
Mean ol’ Mr. Burp
140. Mr Burp
Your intellectual gymnastics are no more than plain boring…..and not just post #140!!!!!…..Nigel.
Some thought, from a venerable being, on why one should always refer back to one’s Reality, one’s True Self, one’s Master, especially in times of dark and depressed thoughts and feelings…..Nigel.
William Shakespeare – Sonnet #29
“When, in disgrace with Fortune and men’s eyes,
I all alone beweep my outcast state,
And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries,
And look upon myself and curse my fate,
Wishing me like to one more rich in hope,
Featured like him, like him with friends possessed,
Desiring this man’s art, and that man’s scope,
With what I most enjoy contented least,
Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
Haply I think on thee, and then my state,
Like to the lark at break of day arising
From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven’s gate
For thy sweet love remembered such wealth brings,
That then I scorn to change my state with kings.”
On a completely different gist, does anyone know whether N——s S——-g is ‘alive and kickin’ ass’ in the Foffery?????…..Nigel.
The following illustrates that constituitional protections of religious freedom has its limitations when it comes to criminal activities:
Polygamist leader gets life in prison for assault
Aug 9, 6:40 PM (ET)
By PAUL J. WEBER
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) – Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs recorded everything he said. Thousands of pages, written with Biblical flourish, about God wanting him to take 12-year-old wives. About those girls needing to sexually please him. About men he banished for not building his temple fast enough.
Facing his last chance to keep his freedom, Jeffs didn’t say a word.
He was sentenced to life in prison Tuesday for sexually assaulting one of his child brides – among 24 underage wives prosecutors said Jeffs collected – and received the maximum 20-year punishment on a separate child sex conviction. Jeffs, 55, will not be eligible for parole until he is at least 100 years old.
The head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [FLDS] made no plea for leniency. He ordered his attorneys not to call witnesses during the sentencing phase, and forbade them from making a closing argument Tuesday.
Less than half an hour later, jurors returned with the harshest punishment possible.
“He’s a pervert, and the crazy thing is, he perverted his own religion,” his sister, Elaine Jeffs, said after the sentencing. Nearby, police escorted her brother into a waiting patrol car.
Elaine Jeffs, who left the FLDS in 1984, watched the end to an often bizarre and graphic two-week trial. Other onlookers included one of Jeffs’ top lieutenants and state caseworkers who rounded up nearly 400 children during a 2008 raid at the sect’s Texas ranch. There were a handful of spectators as well, including a retired couple who also sat in on the Casey Anthony trial in Florida.
Despite the convictions and life sentence, Jeffs remains in control of the FLDS and its roughly 10,000 followers. His most devoted consider him God’s spokesman on earth and a prophet, but his followers were absent in court for the bulk of the trial.
Jeffs sometimes was, too. He boycotted the sentencing phase, remaining in a courthouse holding cell, and refused to answer state District Judge Barbara Walther when directly questioned Tuesday. Jeffs had represented himself during the conviction phase, and often interrupted court proceedings by contending that he was being persecuted for his religious beliefs.
The FLDS is a radical offshoot of mainstream Mormonism and believes polygamy brings exaltation in heaven. In closing arguments, prosecutors rejected the idea that the sect had been targeted.
“The evidence in this case shows that this isn’t a prosecution of a people,” prosecutor Eric Nichols said. “This is a prosecution to protect people.”
Jurors ignored reporters after the sentencing, quickly walking to their cars that were parked single-file in a blocked-off street and driving away.
Willie Jessop, a former FLDS spokesman who railed against Texas authorities following the raid but has since disavowed Jeffs, said the heinousness of the charges has left a fractured FLDS community. He said his first goal would be tearing down the guard tower and gates at the Yearning for Zion ranch, which authorities stormed in 2008 and where they collected a trove of evidence against Jeffs.
That included photos of him kissing the young brides he took in “spiritual marriages” and scratchy audiotapes of him giving girls explicit instructions for sex. His journals speak of casting out men for not being humble, written around the same time Jeffs was photographed in a leather jacket atop a Harley Davidson motorcycle.
“Everyone in the church has got to take a responsibility for what has taken place,” Jessop said. “In order for this to be fixed going forward, we have to take responsibility. This is a crisis for every single member in the church.”
Jeffs rose to power in 2002 following his father’s death, and has run the church despite being in police custody in either Arizona or Texas since 2006.
He’ll be more restricted in whatever Texas prison he ends up in. Jeffs was flown to a prison intake across the state hours after being sentenced. It’s there that prison officials will decide where he will serve his sentence and whether to assign him to the general prison population, safekeeping or protective custody. His telephone calls will be limited to a list of 10 people, and Jeffs will be prohibited from receiving any visitors under age 17.
Jeffs stood quietly Tuesday as the sentence was read. He must serve at least 45 years in prison: at least 35 years of a life sentence on one of the child sex charges, and at least 10 years on the other.
During the trial, prosecutors used DNA evidence to show Jeffs fathered a child with a 15-year-old girl and played an audio recording of what they said was him sexually assaulting a 12-year-old.
“If the world knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree,” Jeffs wrote in 2005, according to one of his journals.
Nichols referred to that passage in his closing Tuesday.
“No, Mr. Jeffs, unlike what you wrote in your priesthood records … we don’t hang convicts anymore from the highest tree. Not even child molesters,” Nichols said.
Jeffs spent years crisscrossing the country as a fugitive who eventually made the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted list before his capture in 2006. Former church members testified that Jeffs ruled with a heavy and abusive hand, and excommunicated 60 church members he saw as a threat to his leadership.
Among Jeffs’ most eccentric orders was banning the color red. Rebecca Musser, a former FLDS member who was once a wife of Jeffs’ father, showed up to the sentencing in a deep red dress.
Prosecutors suggested that the polygamist leader told the girls they needed to have sex with him – in what Jeffs called “heavenly” or “celestial” sessions – in order to atone for sins in his community. Several times in his journals, Jeffs wrote of God telling him to take more and more young girls as brides “who can be worked with and easily taught.”
When police raided the group’s ranch, they found women dressed in frontier-style dresses and hairdos from the 19th century as well as underage girls who were clearly pregnant. The call that spurred the raid turned out to be a hoax, and hundreds of children were returned to their families.
Jeffs is the eighth FLDS man convicted since the raid. Previous sentences ranged from six to 75 years in prison.
—
Associated Press writer Mike Graczyk in Houston contributed to this report.
Burp, you’re such a show off.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεός, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
147. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
136. Ames
I don’t know which is worse, what RB did to Roger Greene’s money, or “final judgement” of Kevin K. What RB did with Roger Greene’s money is typical of the attitude that Roger’s son was only a “life person”, coupled with the FF attitude that the FF and RR are absolutely deserving of any wealth that came its way. I remember hearing about Roger’s son; my recollection may be wrong, but he may not have gotten along that well with his son. I remember hearing, some time in the 1990s, something about FF students “looking after Roger when he was ill,” and that the FF was trying to persuade him to leave his money to the FF. (I had left the FF by then, so I don’t remember who told me.)
I never got to know Kevin, but your story is heartbreaking. I remember him, but never talked to him. You’re right, that someone in that situation lives with constant humiliation because of their dependence on (the kindness of) others. Your details of his inability to have something most people take for granted, which is to have a bowel movement, made me reflect on how little of that I actually went through with my father. I remember my friend doing that for her mother numerous times, (in fact, she’s the one who provided the Ancient Greek to me in 147, above). She almost cried when she described it the first time, because no one else would or could do it, and her mother expressed no gratitude afterwards.
The Fellowship has a history of suicide. The first one took place in the early 1970’s, and was sometimes referred to as “the play of crime”.
Surgamus ergo strenue!
Gallus iacentes excitat,
et somnolentos increpat….
I’m wondering if anyone took Latin in school. I took four years in high school and I messed up the one thing I put up here! I guess these days a Google search is sufficient: Ero/eras/erat/eramus/eratis/erant.
Personal post to Arthur:
27. Arthur – August 6, 2011
‘I have fourth or last stage copd. It doesnt mean near death, it just means it’s worse that the first three.
In January I was hospitalized with pneumonia, blood infection and failing kidneys. Blessed be those…’
Arthur, here is a tip for you, if you don’t already know it and want to preserve your life. You probably remember the FoF exercise of ‘intentional dining.’ Well, intentional dining takes on a whole new meaning for people like you or the terminally ill.
Possibly one of the leading causes of death for many people in failing health is pulmonary aspiration. [Pulmonary aspiration is the entry of material (such as pharyngeal secretions, food or drink, or stomach contents) from the oropharynx or gastrointestinal tract into the larynx (voice box) and lower respiratory tract (the portions of the respiratory system from the trachea (windpipe) to the lungs).] When health fails, often the swallowing function suffers, that leads to this problem that leads to respiratory infection and/or pneumonia. It likely does not show up as cause of death on death certificates. It is, however, a negative cascading sequence of events. So, eat and drink intentionally. Practice the swallowing reflex. Keep it strong and healthy. Do not breath in while eating. Make sure you do not do pulmonary aspiration to yourself.
Shirly,
Let me tell you what he did with this money.
He purchased a lot of very expansive stuff from the most expansive shops in Beverly Hills, he left a lot in the most expansive restaurants of the Beverly Hills, he staid in the most expansive hotels in the Beverly Hills and he paid to his male prostitutes, his own students.
And ALL this under a religious tax exempt status.
Whoops eram not ero!
Speaking of language, and Ames’ and Jomo’s mention of cognitive dissonance (a term I’m not too familiar with, so had to Wikipedia it):
One of the ways the FF controls its members’ minds is by discouraging the use of anything except so-called Work language. I don’t want to opine on the value or disvalue of 4th Way system, except to say that if that’s the only vocabulary you’re using to describe every single thing you feel, think and experience, then your world becomes circumscribed by those words’ meanings. This is something that linguists explore, which is, how does language affect us? If you didn’t have certain words in your mental arsenal, would your mind and emotions “go down certain roads”? (Is this one of the ways the FF keeps its members chained?)
For ex., the FF party line about AG’s death: If you issue a bland untruth, then pretty soon, you lose the impetus to probe and question freely.
I also mention this because someone asked me a few days ago about my lunch with H., the woman I mentioned above who was also good friends with Roger G. and who is still in the FF (as far as I know). At that lunch, I felt myself at a slight disadvantage, as though I felt I had to explain myself and my post-FF life to her in such a way that she could understand and accept me. So I resorted to using mostly 4th Way and FF language, something I hadn’t done in over 16 years. In other words, I was playing by her rules, rather than broadening the game to make her converse with me without constant reference to 4th Way / FF terminology. It’s like getting stuck in a rut, and the rut only gets deeper and deeper with constant usage.
152. X-ray
What baffles me is why FF members keep tolerating that. It’s not that I wasn’t under the same spell. But it just never ends, and it sounds like it’s only gotten outlandishly worse. Plus it sounds like he said he’d build this or that, and then he’s gone out on wasteful spending sprees with everyone’s money.
155
Because they are INDOCRINATED AND BRAINWASHED.
Wouldnt You Like To Know (151),
Now that you mentioned it, I do remember “intentional dining” and I believe it will help a whole lot. Thank you so much.
I do have “issues” with eating and what you said makes sense. Sometimes when I rush eating and swallow wrong my throat seizes. When it does happen and I recover ‘intentionality” begins automatically. Reflex I guess.
But now since you brought it to my ‘attention’ I’ll write it down and place the reminder where I eat.
Again, thank you!
157# Sweet!
Re. 151 – Wouldnt You Like To Know – Thank you so much for the advice to Arthur. I have been having difficulties in that area but just ignored it other than usually having something to drink nearby when I eat to wash it down. What you said makes a lot of sense. Stuff does sometimes get into the lungs and I have found myself coughing as if I had a cold when I don`t.
Cheers!
87. PSPS
Hah Hah David S. Nice to see you here. LOL
“How the fuck did I get into this shit? ”
–Vinny Gambini, attorney (Joe Pesci) in My Cousin Vinny
67. Ames Gilbert – August 7, 2011
‘An obvious choice is David Springfield. . .’
David Springfield becoming Fellowship of Friends (FoF), Living Presence, Being Present, main lawyer is unlikely, given the ‘David Springfield letter’ that has been circulated. (WikiLeaks preserving it in perpetuity.) Even AG was in a diminished rôle of late, as I understand it – having been fired by the board of directors. Functioning as a legal advisor, because they are FoF members, is another story. Then outside lawyers can be hired on a case by case basis. (Even outsource it to a third world country – ooops, USA is rapidly headed for third world status – so you don’t have to go outsourcing to foreign lands.)
‘Of course, best of all for his own sake would be to leave the organization right now while the going is good.’
Whether DS is in or out or whatever, it is necessary to consider that his parents and brother have had long association with the FoF.
But, these poor economic times can make for strange bedfellows.
* * * * * *
Also worthy of note, is that the acceptance level of suicide that the AG case represents, relative to earlier positions on the matter, moves the Fellowship of Friends one step closer to finding acceptable suicide scenarios like those of Peoples Temple (Jim Jones), Heaven’s Gate, Branch Davidians, (in modern times), and Masada, (in ancient times), and the like. Human sacrifice anyone? Whatcha gonna do when the house of cards collapses?
149/Silentpurr
As I understood it, “the play of crime” referred to Yorgos Savides’ departure to start another group, “The School of the New Dawn,” in November 1972. The suicide of LFS occurred in April 1973, according to the Social Security Death index. That suicide is referenced in the account of Barbara Bruno Lancaster in the 1988 book _Cults and Consequences_; her account appears here:
http://www.archive.org/details/TheEsotericHistoryArchive_416
Hallo everybody out there,
the message of the end of a “spiritual wedding” in the USA reaches good old Europe:
listen (sorry it is German but it is IMHO a sign for hope: don’t touch our children with a so called religious/spiritual slime!
http://www.spiegel.de/video/video-1142713.html
Well, weather DS is intelligent or not, we will judge by his action. If he´ll replace AG after his explosive letter become public, where he clearly states his concerns in regards to the FOF crimes, then we´ll know the answer.
#161 WWW – When was A.G. fired by the Board of Directors? Was there any particular reason? Didn’t R.B. move to protect him from this time? R.B. always protected him in the past. I can think of a good many reasons why he might have been sacked – but those reasons were extant in the 1980s. Why now?
A pivotal figure in the FOF suddenly sidelined, facing financial difficulties, disabled and in pain, and who knows what else going on, taking his own life.
His “role,” his lovely house in the very shadow of R.B.’s Galleria, the concerts in his home, the angles at meetings – all a facade.
He was completely isolated, completely alone – as someone put it recently: More than 400 Facebook friends, and no one he could turn to. So he hanged himself on a Sunday night, a thousand light years from light and love.
This desperate death is being retooled to look like a heroic martyrdom. Glorifying this suicide keeps people from seeing their own participation in the demise of this desperately sad, disappointed and broken man, using him to rally once again and suppressing a shared sense of guilt. In fact, I suspect it’s the shared guilt and complicity that keeps the FOF together.
Is it really that different from Kevin K., who following his daffy Teachers’ teaching about a catastrophic earthquake, in a benighted act of faith and trust, gave up the very lifelines he needed to exist as a quadriplegic? He, too, plotted his own death, planning it for a time he was unattended, driving his wheelchair in a pond where there would be no hope of timely rescue – indeed, where he could not even rescue himself in a last-minute bid for life.
Please take note current FOF leaders: You too can be sidelined and discarded at any moment. You too can be “churned.”
For the rest of the FOF members, please reread Shirley #154: “For example, the FF party line about AG’s death: If you issue a bland untruth, then pretty soon, you lose the impetus to probe and question freely.”
Please get out. Get out now.
Thanks for the link, Jomo, I didn’t know this existed.
Yet another aggregation, this one borrows heavily from what has already been presented here, and in the Internet Archive and Fellowship of Friends wiki, and presents it in a slightly different context:
http://robertearlburton.blogspot.com/
149, 162 silentpurr, Jomo P
The term “play of crime” , and the extreme secrecy that early students in the FF seemed to be bound to, seemed another ploy by RB to control through fear. I also think it’s a good example of how there was (and still is?) such a strong atmosphere of secrecy, hiding activities that should be known and discussed.
Shortly after I joined in mid 73, I heard references to a “play of crime.” I couldn’t get a single detail about it out of anyone. Either the student didn’t know and admitted their ignorance, or they knew something but refused to divulge even one explanatory sentence. I kept wondering if there had been a murder or theft. In fact, if you’re not going to talk about it, why even mention that “there was a play of crime,” all with a weird tone in the voice.
Some time in 1974 or 75, I attended a ballet in Berkeley with Anna G. As we approached our seats in the balcony, a woman in our row greeted her; she was with a few other people. Anna clammed up. She didn’t introduce me to them, but that didn’t bother me. Once we were home, she explained that that was the wife of the person who had been instrumental in the “play of crime.” She might have mentioned the man’s name. But I still couldn’t get her to say what the “crime” was.
#165 is new
re. 165 – Armando – Why do abused people so often stay in the relationship rather than leave. Deep down it is that they know they are still alive and the fear of the unknown (leaving) is crippling. They cannot make a move. They fear a form of death. True many leave but I am talking about those who choose to stay.
Again, those fear thoughts they have gotten addicted to for whatever reason have become hard-wired. The habit of separating from the pain of those thoughts is also a hard-wiring, a brain washing, a programming. They do not know they are in denial, they believe what they have been told by that significant other, that they are doing `the work`. Actually that is really worse than the battered wife. At least she knows she is unhappy. They don`t.
It is so sad I am having a hard time signing off in my usual way,
so I use the Oh`ponopono method. I am sorry for this problem. please forgive me. Thank you. I love you.
Cheers!
165
I never heard that AG was fired by the fellowship board.
I think you are confusing him with DS.
But regardless, you are right about been discarded at any moment.
In FOF people are like condoms, getting used and getting thrown out.
“The moral test of government [Robert E. Burton] is how that [he] government treats those who are down in life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; those who are in the shadows of life; the sick, the needy and the handicapped”. Hubert H. Humphrey
Those who are down in life, the children, those in the twilight, the elderly, those in the shadows, the sick, the needy and the handicapped will be the witnesses for or against Robert E. Burton.
170 Renald.
I don’t know why the newer members stay. For the ones who have been in for a very long time, it’s probably a combination of factors:
1. staying with the familiar (the devil you know vs. the devil you don’t know);
2. you’ve invested so much of your time and money that you can’t bear to cut your losses short and move on, so you keep finding ways to make it acceptable to your psychology, just like holding on to a losing stock forever (“maybe it will do better in six months”);
3. fear of disobeying the authoritarian body of the FF and REB’s directives, and fear of ostracization; and
4. lack of economic resources and marginal finances. It’s very hard to start over, when you’re in your 50s, 60s and beyond. It’s hard to be confident in the outside world when your world has depended on a closed community using familiar language that has shared values that applies only to itself.
It’s funny how many people talk about A.G. representing “the dark side” of the FOF – the organization’s pit bull. One FOF woman I spoke with – and, as I recall, some on this blog, too – said they were glad that they did not know more, because it might color their memories of Abe.
Years ago I read this in Scott Peck’s “People of the Lie” about the MyLai massacre in Vietnam, in which U.S. soldiers murdered hundreds of unarmed civilians, including women, children, and babies (it’s long; bear with me):
“How is it that approximately 500 men, the majority of whom were undoubtedly not evil as individuals, could all have participated in an act as monstrously evil as that at My Lai?”
“If at the time of My Lai, wandering through the halls of the Pentagon, I stopped to talk with the men responsible for directing the manufacture of napalm and its transportation to Vietnam in the form of bombs, and if I questioned these men about the morality of the war and hence the morality of what they were engaged in, this is the kind of reply I invariably received: ‘Oh, we appreciate your concerns, yes, we do, but I’m afraid you’ve come to the wrong people. We’re not the department you want. This is the ordnance branch. We just supply the weapons – we don’t determine how and where they’re used. That’s policy. What you want to do is talk to the policy people down the hall.’ And if I followed this suggestion and expressed the same concerns in the policy branch, this was the response: ‘Oh, we understand that there are broad issues involved, but I’m afraid they’re beyond our purview. We simply determine how the war will be conducted – not whether it will be conducted. You see, the military is only an agency of the executive branch. The military only does what it’s told to do. These broad issues are decided at the White House level, not here. That’s where you need to take your concerns.’ So it went.”
“Whenever the roles of individuals within a group become specialized, it becomes both possible and easy for the individual to pass the moral buck to some other part of the group. In this way, not only does the individual forsake his conscience but the conscience of the group as a whole can become so fragmented and diluted as to be nonexistent. … The plain fact of the matter is that any group will remain inevitably potentially conscienceless and evil until such time as each and every individual holds himself or herself directly responsible for the behavior of the whole group – the organism – of which he or she is a part.”
And even then, as I was reading this so long ago, I thought of Abe.
Armando (107-165),
this is explicitly stated in the ‘David Springfield letter’, which was posted on the blog by someone called ‘Black Marker’ in June 2009, and which was featured in a legal action by some members of the Fellowship of Friends against some former members. See page 73 of this blog for more details if you are interested. According to the copy I downloaded from the court records, the relevant paragraph states:
Google ‘David Springfield letter’ and you’ll be able to read the whole thing for yourself.
Note, I have no idea what happened after this. For all I know, one or both of them were reinstated later.
Certainly during my stay, the Board (whose members are chosen by Burton specifically for their compliance) was always a rubber stamp for Burton’s wishes and orders. Why would this ever change?
______________________
Re: “The Play of Crime”. By the time I arrived, I think this was in more general use. For example, Burton told me in 1979 that when a previous ranch manager absconded with $20,000, that was a ‘play of crime’. I was told Burton commented that when I was kicked out, that I was engaged in a ‘play of crime’. My guess is that nowadays it boils down to “whatever irritates Burton more than usual” in any given moment.
176. Ames
“Play of crime”
Do you recall when “John Ray took the money away”? That play of crime was only $6,800. He took the Ranch food shopping fund and fled, abandoning the shopping truck in Sacramento. (But he was a “good householder” and advised us where we’d find the vehicle.)
‘165. Armando – August 10, 2011
#161 WWW – When was A.G. fired by the Board of Directors? Was there any particular reason? Didn’t R.B. move to protect him from this time? R.B. always protected him in the past. I can think of a good many reasons why he might have been sacked – but those reasons were extant in the 1980s. Why now?’
and
‘171. X-ray – August 11, 2011
165
I never heard that AG was fired by the fellowship board.
I think you are confusing him with DS.’
Not so. Both fired, if that is what you want to call it. DS wrote about it in his letter. Have you read the DS letter? States as much there:
‘As you know, Abraham and I were instructed to stop all legal work. First, a directive was issued on November 3, 2007, via email, on behalf of Et..n Har..s, Chairman of the Board, through R.se Ke.n.dy S.afer Vice Chairman of the Board, without explanation, question, or discussion. My emails and letter of November 6, 2007, about this heavy-handed and improper directive were ignored by all board members.’
Excerpt from DS letter of November 19, 2007
The ‘176. Ames Gilbert – August 11, 2011’ post quotes passages about both being removed from the board.
Here is an hypothesis:
Lawyers:
‘As officers of the court, lawyers have an absolute ethical duty to tell judges the truth, including avoiding dishonesty or evasion about reasons the attorney or his/her client is not appearing, the location of documents and other matters related to conduct of the courts.’ Etc. They have a duty of ethical behaviour in service to legal process.
If a client, in this case a corporation and its board of directors, is functioning outside of legal bounds, having lawyers knowledgeable of these affairs, by being on the board of directors and/or acting as legal council, compromises the corporate legal position in some theoretical future action. So, lawyers should have only limited, and discretionary, knowledge of these affairs, as may be necessary, if at all. Strategy becomes: get them off the board and engage them only for very specific purposes – keep them in the dark until circumstance require them being informed. The less they know, the better.
If you are going to commit a crime, do not tell your lawyer about it before hand. Get the picture?
I am not a legal expert. Perhaps someone else is who reads and posts here.
Wondering Who’s Watching (#107-178 or thereabouts),
what you say about the ethics of lawyers is all very well (though if a client is selective about the information given to a lawyer trying to defend that client, it would seem to risk an inadequate and literally uninformed defense), but you must bear in mind that the Fellowship of Friends is an exceptionalist organization headed by an exceptionalist leader. Ethics, morality, the rule of law, nothing of this applies here. Burton is way beyond such limiting factors, because he is a ‘conscious being’, and in the Fellowship narrative, is not subject to such laws. He can do whatever he wants, that is the law, and he expects the universe to bend to his will. And the local part of the universe does bend to his will; the surrounding cloud of 1600 odd followers sees to that, and labors mightily to cover up the consequences when his version of reality collides with reality outside the group. Goldman was one of those laborers, and even if his advice was spurned, continued to support Burton and his works.
I find it curious that so few of the followers actually study the Fourth Way, despite using the Fourth Way as the bait in the ‘bait and switch’ scam that is the Fellowship of Friends/Pathway to Presence/Living Presence/Church of Robert Earl Burton organization. And despite freely using the language of the Fourth Way, now of course liberally mixed with interpretations of Egyptian writings and caveman rhino poops, few use the tools to explore the reality of the situation. Here is something to consider: the founding ‘do’ of the organization was based on lies, exaggerations and fantasy. This means that every single part of the subsequent octave is corrupted for the entire life of the organization. It also means that it is literally impossible to correct the way the energy flows, the initial corruption infects the time-body of the organization until it ceases to exist, no matter what efforts might be made to clean up the mess. Of course, there have been no attempts to do so because the founder is still there, continuing to corrupt, but even if there were in theory some heroic attempts by well–meaning folks to try to save ‘the best’ in some way, it would be impossible. I mention this because apparently some followers hope that if Burton dies or is persuaded to retire, some successor could revitalize the organization and set it on a new path.
” Here is something to consider: the founding ‘do’ of the organization was based on lies, exaggerations and fantasy. This means that every single part of the subsequent octave is corrupted for the entire life of the organization. It also means that it is literally impossible to correct the way the energy flows, the initial corruption infects the time-body of the organization until it ceases to exist, no matter what efforts might be made to clean up the mess. Of course, there have been no attempts to do so because the founder is still there, continuing to corrupt, but even if there were in theory some heroic attempts by well–meaning folks to try to save ‘the best’ in some way, it would be impossible. I mention this because apparently some followers hope that if Burton dies or is persuaded to retire, some successor could revitalize the organization and set it on a new path. ” Ames Gilbert
If the universe, life itself, is really such that events unfold in a pattern as organized as “The Law of the Octave”, then we are all screwed. How intentional was your own conception, for example!? As far as the Fellowship of Friends goes, I don’t think that there’s any hope, whether or not the “Law of the Octave” is really the underlying structure. The judgmental and restrictive environment seems to serve to hinder the “Students” real growth, doesn’t it? Even when “The Teacher” dies, do you really think anybody that has been long- time brainwashed to think and move in those weird restricted ways will suddenly wake up? Well, I guess there are all the former students to answer that question. In a way, “The Teacher” has already died for all those that have intentionally (and some, unintentionally) already left “The School.”
What could possibly be done after Robert E. Burton dies, is that the property and all its rich effects could be sold, the money divided, and “The Work” could go on as a real non profit without the exorbitant dues. But, without a “Teacher” how could it? They could teach the system without the sex and money grabbing if there was a system, but there isn’t really a system, is there? Robert Burton watered down and diluted his core teaching with his various obsessions ~ with Egyptology, interpretation of “Influence C” via cultural ephemera, and phrenology (Gorbachev’s birthmark), etc., long ago. What could they teach? A lot of fairytales? Back to the Fourth Way reading circles?
You could say that the Fellowship is “Crystallized Incorrectly” and the remedy might be a mass confrontation or intervention, But no, indoctrinated students are too passive for such risky behavior!
181: It’s an exhilarating experience to leave fear behind. I don’t think the process ever stops, just the personal stories are different. I see leaving the Fellowship as a huge step in leaving fear behind and having faith things are not necessarily easier but definitely less confusing. Hearts can open and true humility ca be experienced. It’s humbling and painful to know one spent years allowing another person to run ones life to whatever extent that might have been. I was telling my story to someone recently and I told them, “I was a bad student,” and they said, “Sounds to me like you were a good student.”
re 180 – Golden veil “ that the property and all its rich effects could be sold, the money divided, and “The Work” could go on as a real non profit without the exorbitant dues.“
This can never legally happen. Illegally? Who knows what can be done with the help of a shyster lawyer! There are too many waiting in the bushes for their opportunity and yes they would be mostly lawyers. Any stealing that will be done will be done before the great event with burton`s cooperation. I believe burton already has a large number of investments going with what was fof money. This means that he actually did not spend it in the manner thought by all. He just made it look that way. That is how some students were able to start their own businesses and pay him back with interest. Some day someone will spill the beans and then watch the action.
Cheers!
Cheers!
re. 178 – Wondering Who`s Watching – “ If a client, in this case a corporation and its board of directors, is functioning outside of legal bounds, having lawyers knowledgeable of these affairs, by being on the board of directors and/or acting as legal council, compromises the corporate legal position in some theoretical future action. So, lawyers should have only limited, and discretionary, knowledge of these affairs, as may be necessary, if at all. Strategy becomes: get them off the board and engage them only for very specific purposes – keep them in the dark until circumstance require them being informed. The less they know, the better.“
Which brings to mind the sudden hunting accidental death of a new student back in the nineties who just happened to have been a lawyer.
Cheers!
It is odd, isn’t it, to think of a lawyer (of all people) falling for the Fellowship of Friends Fourth Way swindle? But, yes, many of the “brightest stars” of several generations fell under the charismatic con of The School.”
Ames, Golden Veil, silentpurr and sallymcnally;
In a few brief statements, you offer plenty to consider. Ames gives a clear overview of the dilemma confronting those “still in”. I only hope that the perceived “laws” are not so absolute. (I have learned to place conditions on my “verifications” of such theories.)
Golden Veil suggests “the property and all its rich effects could be sold, the money divided”. The last I heard, the Fellowship is seriously in arrears on tax payments. (Many of us know what “being in arrears” feels like.) When that inevitable event arrives, we can guess who will be first in line for their pound of flesh.
Silentpurr states “indoctrinated students are too passive”. Over the course of this discussion, many have with regret admitted as much. In fact, it seems that is what brought us to a school – the promise of a simple prescription for our problems.
Sally states “I see leaving the Fellowship as a huge step in leaving fear behind and having faith things are not necessarily easier but definitely less confusing.”
At this late date, after plenty of reflection, I must entertain the thought that, quite possibly, I’m just as naive, passive and trusting now as at that first “Prospective Student Meeting”. Certainly, experience has brought new understandings, but really, how far along the path to understanding am I?
With age, comfort becomes a more compelling factor. It is not difficult to understand how people inure themselves to passivity, lies, injustice, and even criminality. History abounds with examples. The relevant lessons incessantly play out in the day’s news.
The older generations sit back and look to the idealistic youth to reform the system they themselves failed to change.
We don’t often talk here about the children, and I often wonder “how is it for them? What have we left for them to sort out?”
Well, Goldenveil (# 107-180 or thereabouts),
the ‘story’ in Fourth Way terms (and in my opinion, all systems of organizing knowledge are stories, including one of the best, the scientific method) “says” that most octaves are mechanical, that is, not initiated intentionally; those proceed to completion without any conscious help. That would include most acts of conception, I’d say. Sticking to this particular story, a supposedly ‘conscious being’ would not initiate an octave based on a lie, because he/she would know the consequences, only one of which that the lie would eventually be exposed.
Continuing what I was writing about the FoF organization; the way I see it, although the organization itself is doomed, that does not necessarily apply to the followers. Though their inner work has inevitably been corrupted by the corruption of their teacher, if they can break away from allegiance to Burton and make the efforts necessary to individuate, then the octave arising from that decision is the fresh start they need. In Fourth Way language, the triad of forces that results in the actual decision to move allows the fresh start. Theoretically, further movement in this direction could result in the arrival of a working conscience in which to place one’s trust. This can only be done on an individual basis. The organization itself cannot be saved.
In the situation of the Fellowship of Friends, breaking away means graduating oneself, ready or not, since Burton’s ‘school’ is one of permanent dependence. The way I see it, the decision can only be made if the level of discomfort becomes high enough and one is compelled to try to see the truth of the situation. Then one can see and face and start to process one’s abdication of responsibility, the betrayal of trust, the normalization of corruption, the sleep–inducing mechanisms substituted for tools of awakening, and the self–deception that allowed one to participate in all this. In my case, I feel strongly that help was available. Call it Grace, whatever, once I made the decision to face the truth, help to support that decision came.
I wrote more about making decisions in # 15-459, in case anyone is interested.
“What could possibly be done after Robert E. Burton dies, is that the property and all its rich effects could be sold, the money divided, and “The Work” could go on as a real non profit without the exorbitant dues.”
You must have pulled that out of your ass, because Calif. non-profits don’t work that way.
Octaves: I don’t know but one explanation I remember is that there are “intervals” to go through and if not done successfully you end up going in circles?
Rhino poop, isnt that circular?
187. Ames Gilbert – August 11, 2011:
‘Call it Grace, whatever, once I made the decision to face the truth, help to support that decision came.’
Remember this quote attributed to Goethe?:
‘Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back. Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one’s favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now.’
It applies equally to going in and coming out of the Fellowship of Friends (aka: Pathway to Presence, Living Presence, Church of Robert Earl Burton).
190. Wouldnt You Like To Know
“Until one is committed…”
Whoever said it, that’s great advice, and likely based upon first-hand experience. “Even” passive individuals can benefit from such an attitude.
In burton’s church, you give all that you can and take what you can get…until you can’t take it any more.
re 190 – Wouldn`t You Like To Know – This quote reads like it is right out of The Law of Attraction material, or vice versa, where hesitancy is referred to as resistance, or in 4th Way as Second Force. Once the ideas become clear the choice of words are immaterial. When the ideas remain unclear some people refer to them as magical thinking.
Cheers!
re above,….and yes, faked clarity is usually called bull shit.
Cheers!
187, 190, 192, et al.
Do you think it would be worth our while to describe how we moved on, when we left the FF? (Sorry about using the collective “we/our”). That is, if I were a “victim in the victim pool,” I would probably want to have pointers from those who made it to “the other side.” It occurs to me that being enormously disappointed, disgusted or discouraged by the FF and RB, may not be enough to unpeel someone out of the FF. They may have such thick blinders on, that they can’t imagine what it’s like for an ex-FFr to have created a successful inner or outer life, after leaving the FF.
I don’t mean to pry into any individual’s personal or spiritual life, but does any one think this is a helpful direction in “draining the victim pool”? I was thinking less along the lines of what religious or spiritual affiliations one explored and arrived at (if any), but more, the process of discovery. I’m trying to avoid the time-honored wisdom of not discussing religion or politics in a closed community.
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